a catechisme, or, the grounds and principles of christian religion set forth by way of question and answer wherein the summe of the doctrine of religion is comprised, familiarly opened, and clearly confirmed from the holy scriptures / by richard mather, teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing m ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a catechisme, or, the grounds and principles of christian religion set forth by way of question and answer wherein the summe of the doctrine of religion is comprised, familiarly opened, and clearly confirmed from the holy scriptures / by richard mather, teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. mather, richard, - . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for iohn rothwell, and are to be sold at his shop ..., london : . reproduction of original in bodleian library. eng congregational churches -- catechisms. congregational churches -- doctrines. catechisms -- congregational churches. a r (wing m ). civilwar no a catechisme, or, the grounds and principles of christian religion set forth by way of question and answer wherein the summe of the doctrine mather, richard b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - rina kor sampled and proofread - rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a catechisme or , the grounds and principles of christian religion , set forth by way of question and answer . wherein the summe of the doctrine of religion is comprised , familiarly opened , and clearly confirmed from the holy scriptures . by richard mather , teacher to the church at dorchester in new england . hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love , which is in christ iesus . tim. . . when for the time ye ought to be teachers , ye have need that one teach you again the first principles of the oracles of god , and are become such as have need of milke , and not of strong meat . heb. . . london , printed for iohn rothwell , and are to be sold at his shop at the signe of the sunne and fountaine in pauls church-yard neer the little north-gate . . to the christian reader . the publique catechizing of children by way of familiar dialogue in short and plaine questions & answers , though it be scrupled by some , as if it wanted scripture warrant : yet such as acknowledge children to be members of christs kingdome and church , ( as all but antipaedobaptists doe ) mar. . . they cannot deny , that ( being members of christs house ) the stewards of his house must ( in faithfulnesse to christ , and them ) dispence a portion of spirituall food to them in due season , luke . . and evident it is by daily experience that long discourses ( sermon-wise ) runne over childrens heads ( like water over a mill , that grinds no meale at all ) and passe their capacity . no way of instruction is so proper for them , as that which the prophet describeth as most suitable to the understanding of children , line upon line , here a little and there a little ( isai . , . ) which can no way so conveniently be dispensed , as in briefe and familiar questions and answers put into their mouthes . but as this way of short and familiar catechizing is the fittest portion of young childrens bread : so there is a larger doctrine of catechisme , containing the whole body of divinity , which being solidly compacted together , and evidently confirmed from scripture light , and familiarly delivered to the apprehensions of gods people , it will be a seasonable portion for children of riper age : not only for their further building up in the faith and obedience of the doctrine of the gospel : but also for their establishment in the truth , that they be not pluckt away with the error of the wicked . hence luther had his major as well as his minor catechismus : and beza his larger confession of the faith as well as his shorter . yea the apostle paul ( whose example was now precedentiall , as being indeed authenticall and binding to imitation ) he committed to timothy a platform of sound and wholsome words , in faith and love : which he commanded and charged him , not onely to hold fast himself , tim. . . but likewise to commit the same to faithfull men , who might be able to teach others also , tim. . . this charge , as it then was ( and alwaies will be ) weighty , and seasonable : so never more important and necessary , then in this capritious and fastidious age , when men will nor suffer wholsome doctrine , but having itching eares and wits , doe turn away their hearts from the truth , and are given up to such empty and windy notions , wherein it is hard to judge whether arrogancy or ignorance be the more predominent : arrogance of higher attainements in christ , or ignorance of the true christ , and of life in him . now for casting in some helpe , ( by the grace of christ ) to prevent the spreading of such a gangrene of vanity and apostacy ; and to establish the people of god in the truth of the doctrine which is according to godlinesse : our reverend brother ( according to the precious talent of wisdom , and found judgement given unto him , &c. out of his faithfull love to the flock of christ ) he hath compiled this ensuing platform of wholsome doctrine , in way of a larger catechisme : wherein you shall finde the summe of the doctrine of christian religion , with pithy solidity and orderly dexterity digested together ; and with clear evidence of truth confirmed from the holy scriptures : and both with such familiar plainnesse of savory language , as ( by the blessing of christ ) the simple-honest-hearted reader may be informed and established in the highest truths , and the most intelligent may be refreshed and comforted , in revising and recounting the treasures of wisdome and knowledge which they have received and embraced , and the grounds upon which they have believed ; and all may be led on in the constant profession and practice of the faith and love which is in christ jesus . so we commend this ensuing treatise to the diligent perusall of the christian reader ; and both it and thee to the rich blessing of the grace of christ , and rest thine to serve in the faith and love of the gospel , john cotton . john wilson . the grounds and principles of christian religion . chap. i. of catechizing as an introduction to that which followeth . quest . what is catechizing ? ans. an instructing of the people in the grounds , or principles , or fundamentall points of religion . q. how are these catechisticall , and fundamentall points called in the holy scripture ? a. they are called thge foundation a , the first principles of the oracles of god b , the beginning of the doctrine of christ , c the entrance into gods word , d milke for babes , e and the form of wholsom words f . q. how may the warrantablenesse of this kind of teaching appeare ? a. both by expresse testimony of scripture g , and because catechising is nothing else but the drawing of the doctrine of religion into briefe summes ; and this hath plentifull warrant in the word h . q. what need is there of this kind of teaching ? a. the doctrine of catechisme being milke for babes , and the laying of the foundation , there cannot but be great need thereof ; for all men know the foundation must be layd afore there can be any building ; and babes must have milke afore they be fed with stronger meat . q. what is the benefit of catechising ? a. it is a means of well grounded knowledge , i and of profiting by sermons ; the want whereof being an hinderance that men cannot profit by other higher points of doctrine k . q. what else may be the benefit thereof ? a. it is a means to prevent apostasie l and the infection of errour , which they that are ignorant and unstable are apt to be seduced withall m . q. doe you then think that the doctrine of catechisme is wholsome and usefull to the soules of gods people ? a. as common and ordinary meats are most wholsome to the body , more then curious and dainty dishes : so the doctrine of catechisme is specially wholsome to the soule , and therefore is expresly called the form of wholsome words n . q. how should the doctrine of catechisme be handled ? a. briefly , many things being contracted into narrow summes , for the helping of memory o , and yet plainly p , as may be for the understanding of the simple . q. what are we to think of that usuall way of catechizing by questions and answers ? a. this way of teaching hath plentifull warrant in the scriptures q , and is suitable to the notation , and signifitation of the word catechising , which is taken from that returne or answer which is given in an eccho q. who are to be catechised ? a. all that have need thereof , as being not well instructed in these points ; and therefore little children r are to be catechised as soon as they shall be able to learn , and others also that are ignorant s or children in understanding . q. but is it not a shame for persons of yeers to be catechised ? a. it is a shame , and justly reproveable as a sinne , when persons grown to yeeres are so ignorant as to have need to be catechised . heb. . . , . cor. . . q. but how if they be not willing to be catechised ? a. it is much more a sinne and shame , if being ignorant they refuse to have their ignorance holpen by being instructed , psal. . . prov. , . & . . & . . q. but is it not indeed a reproach and shame unto a man to be catechised ? a. it is so farre from being a shame , that indeed it is the duty of all to be willing to learn u , and therefore not a shame unto any ; but the commendation of every one that is so willing x chap. . of the holy scriptures . q. you have shewed that to be instructed in the principles of religion , is both warrantable , needfull , and profitable ; tell likewise whence we must take direction for attaining wel-grounded knowledge in these principles , and all other points of religion ? a. out of those sacred books or writings , which are called the holy scriptures . q. hath the word and will of god alwaies been set down in writing ? a. no : moses was the first penman of holy scripture , who iived not till above two thousand yeeres after the creation . q. how was the will of god made known to his people in those times afore the scriptures were written ? a. by divers and sundry meanes a , as by visions b , by dreames c , by visible signes d , and by audible voyce e . q. why did god afterward cause his will to be set down in writing ? a. that it might be the better preserved f , that it might be conveyed to posterity g , and that it might be an infallible standard to try all doctrines by h . q. what are the books of holy scriptures ? a. the bookes of the old testament i as they are expressed in our bibles . q. vvhy are these writings called holy ? a. they are called holy k because they have an holy authour , which is god l , were written by pen-men who were holy men m , and because the doctrine which is conteined in them is all for the promoting of holinesse in us n . q. how may it he proved that these bookes are indeed the word of god ? a. because it is said they were given by inspiration of god o , and that the penmen of them spake as they were moved , or acted by the holy ghost p. q. how elseb a. by the wonderfull efficacy of them , as in other things , so in this , that they enter into the heart , for conviction , and humiliation q , and are mighty through god to convert and comfort the soule r . q. how else may it be proved that the scriptures are the word of god ? a. because they must either be the word of god , and have him for the author of them , or else some creature must be the author of them ; which latter is not possible . q. it is true indeed , if no creature be the author of them , then god the creator must ; but why may not some creature be their author ? a. a good creature , angel or man , could never be so impious , presumptuous , and blasphemous , as to father his own doings upon god , falsly making him the author of them ; and a wicked creature would never shew such care and zeale for the glory of god , such dislike and detestation of all kind of sinne , as the book of the scriptures doth . q. what particular uses are the scriptures profitable for ? a. for the teaching of true doctrine , and convincing the contrary , for correction or reformation of errors in life , and for instructing unto good duties , tim. . . q. are the scriptures a compleat and sufficient rule of direction for all points of faith and life ? a. yea ; for they were written for that very end , that we might believe on christ jesus , and believing have eternall life through his name s : and they are able to make one wise unto salvation through the faith which is in christ jesus t q. how else may this sufficiency and perfection of the scriptures appeare ? a. it may appeare also by this , in that by the scriptures , the man of god , who needs more abilities then other men , may be perfect , and throughly furnished unto all good works u ; and because it is a cursed thing to adde any thing thereto w . q. doth the knowledge of the scriptures belong unto all , or onely to the learned ? a. not onely magistrates x and ministers y , but every housholder z , yea simple people a ; yea women b , young men c , and children d , ought to be acquainted with the scriptures ; and therefore the knowledge of them doth belong unto all sorts of people . chap. . of god . q. you have shewed that the meanes of well grounded knowledge is the holy scripture ; tell me now what it is that the scriptures doe especially teach us ? a. they teach us especially the saving knowledge of god , and of jesus christ . a q. how may it be proved that there is a god ? a. the scriptures doe abundantly , and plainly testifie it b ; and the creation of the world doth shew it c . q. how doth the creation of the world shew that there is a god ? a. even as a faire and sumptuous building doth shew that some body was the maker of it , so this great world doth shew there was a maker of it which is god . heb. . . q. but why might not the world be without beginning and have its being of it selfe ? a. because then the world should be god , for that which hath its being of its self , and is without beginning , is god . q. how else may it be proved that there is a god ? a. the succession of day , and night , and other seasons with the sustentation , and ordering of the creatures and the motions of them , doth plainly witnesse that there is a god . psal. . . . acts. . . amos. . & . . q. how may this be expressed in some familiar comparison . a. when a ship is seene at sea with her sayles spread , and her passage rightly guided unto the harbour , it appeareth thereby , that there were men that guided the same ; for if there were no men , there would never be any ships upon the sea : even so the preservation of the great ship of the world , and the guidance of its motions , doth evidently shew , that there is a god by whom the same is preserved , and guided . q. what else may be a further proofe that there is a god ? a. that there is a god is manifestly declared by the strange and wonderfull plagues and judgments , that sometimes are inflicted upon notorious sinners upon earth . exod. . . & . . psal. . . & . . : & . q. what may be thought of those accusations , and terrors of conscience , that sometimes are found in men , upon the committing of haynous sins , though knowne to no man living , but to the sinner himselfe ? a. this also is another testimony that there is a god , before whose judgment seate a man must answer for his deedes ; for otherwise why should a man be afraid where no feare is ? rom. . . isa. . . psal. . . & . . q. how many gods are there ? a. no more but one . deut . , & . . isa . . . & . . . cor . . . eph. . . q. why may there not be more gods then one ? a. because that is contrary to the nature of god which is to be infinite , and everlasting , that is the first , and the last ; now there cannot be many infinites , nor many firsts and lasts , but one only . q. how else doth the nature of god shew that there can be no more but one god ? a. it is the nature of god to have his being of himselfe , and so give being to whatsoever else hath being ; for so much is signified by the word iehovah . exod. . . & . . & . . q. and how doth this prove that there can be no more but one god ? a. because if there were many gods , then either they must one give being to the other , or each one have his being of himself , both which are utterly impossible . q. why might not one of them give being to the other ? a. because then that other could not bee god , as not having his being of himselfe . q. and why might they not be many gods , each one having his god-head of himselfe ? a. because then none of them could be god , as not giving being to all others which had being . q. though there be but one god , yet is there not more persons , or subsistences in the godhead then one ? a. yes ; the scriptures doe apparently witnesse that in the unity of the divine essence , there is a plurality of the divine persons . gen. . . & . . & . . isai. . . & . , . q. how many are the persons in the godhead ? a. they are three , the father , the son , and the holy-ghost , math. . , . & . . ioh. . , . & . . cor. , . gal. . . ioh. . . q. whether are these three , the father , the son , and the holy-ghost severall , and distinct persons , or onely severall names , and titles of one , and the same person . a. the father is not the sonne but another person ; a the son is not the father , but another ; b and the holy ghost is neither the father nor the son , but another ; c and therefore they are each distinct from other as severall , and distinct persons . q. what are the personall properties , whereby each is distinguished from other ? a. the property of the father is to beget the son d , the property of the son to be begotten of the father e , the property of the holy ghost to proceed from the father and the son f , who is therefore called the spirit of the father g , and of the son h , q. are every one of these persons god ? a. yea : of the father there is lesse question , and the scriptures doe witnesse that the son is god i , and also that the holy ghost is god k , q. you have shewed that there is a god , and and onely one god , and three persons ; tell me now what god is ? a. god is so infinite , and incomprehensible , that no creature is able fully to comprehend or know him . exod. . . . iob. . . & . , , . tim. . . q. how then may we conceive of him ? a. as he hath revealed himselfe to us l , in his back parts m , which are his divine attributes n , and by his workes o , q. what are those attributes or back parts of god ? a. wisdome p power , q goodnesse r , truth s , justice t , mercy u , and the like , in all which he is infinite w , and everlasting x . q. what are the works of god ? a. they are three , decree , creation , and providence . chap. . of gods decree . q. what is gods decree ? a. that whereby he hath before determined and decreed with himselfe whatsoever shall come to passe . q. doe you say that gods decree reacheth to all things whatsoever cometh to passe in time ? a. yea all things whatsoever have been , are , or that shall be hereafter , were before decreed , and determined by god . eph. . . act. . . q. what are some of the principall things that are so decreed ? a. things that are most casuall a things that are most freely done by the creature , b and things wherein the creature commits abundance of sin c , q. what else ? a. such things as seeme small and little d , are also great , and speciall events . q. what are some of those great and speciall events that are decreed by the lord ? a. the comming and death of christ , and all the workes of his mediatorship e , the salvation of the godly f , the damnation of the wicked g , the day of every mans particular death h and the day of the generall judgement i , q. when were all these things decreed by god ? a. before the world was created , even from everlasting , cor. . . eph. . . & . . pet. . . tim. . . q. what was the cause of gods decrees ? a. the cause that moved him to decree was nothing foreseene in the creature , but his own will , and good pleasure . rom. . . . matth. . . . but sith some are appointed by the decree of god to damnation , if his will be the cause of that decree , how is that just ? yea , it is most just and righteous notwitstanding , rom. , . q. how may that appeare . a. because the will of god is the rule of all righteousnesse k , and because the lord hath absolute power over all creatures , as the potter hath power over his clay l . q how else may the justice of the lord in his decrees appeare ? a. because what ever be the lords decree , there is no man actually condemned till he be first defiled with sinne . rom. . , . & . , . genes . . . q. vvhether is the decree of god certaine , and immutable , or such as may be changed , and not take effect ? a. it is altogether unchangeable , and shall surely be accomplished , psal. . . & . . isa. . . & . . rom. . . q. if the decree of god be unchangeable , then what needs man to be carefull in the use of means for his owne good ? a. yes , the meanes must be used notwithstanding god decree ; and that partly because the meanes are appointed , and decreed of god as well as the end m ; and partly because the revealed will and command of god is our rule , and not his secret decree n. q. do you think then that gods decree doth not excuse men from blame in the sinnes which they do commit . a. it doth not excuse them at all o , and the reason is because the decree of god infuseth no corruption into the hearts of men , not constraineth them to sinne against their will , but they sinne most freely , and willing of their own accord . q is the decree of god secret within himselfe or revealed and made knowne ? a. it is secret within himselfe , till himselfe do reveale it , and therefore further then so it is not to be searched into . rom. . . cor. ● . deut. . . q. how doth god reveale his decree ? a. partly by his word , wherein this doctrine is plainly , and plentifully taught p , and partly by the execution and accomplishment of things in time . q. how doth the execution or accomplishment of things reveale gods decree ? a. yea very clearely , because nothing was decreed but he executes the same in time ; and whatsoever is brought to passe in time was determined and decreed afore : ephes. . . psal. . . isa. . . q. how many wayes may the decree of god be considered ? a. as respecting all the creatures in generall , or as it respects the reasonable creatures , angels and men , in speciall . q. what are the parts of gods decree as it respecteth man ? a. election and reprobation . q. what is election ? a. it is the decree of god or his predestination q whereby of his owne free love r and good pleasure s he hath from everlasting t appointed and chosen some certaine men u to the obtaining of grace w , and salvation x by christ y , for the praise of his glorious grace z , q. and what is reprobation ? a. it is the decree of god wherby of his meere will and good pleasure a some certaine men b are not elected and ordained to life c , but on the on the contrary are appointed to destruction or damnation d to be inflicted upon them for their sinne e , to the praise of gods glorious justice f , chap. . of creation . q. had this world a beginning by creation , or was it from everlasting ? a. the scripture in many places , and speci ▪ in the first of gen. doth declare that the world was not from everlasting , but had a beginning by the lords creating of it , heb. . . reu. . . prov. . . &c. ps. . . eph. . . q. who was it that created the world ? a. god that is without beginning , and hath his being of himselfe , he it was who gave beginning , and being to the world . gen. . . act. . . isay. . . & . . q. whether was this the worke of the father , or of the sonne , or of the holyghost ? a. of every person in the trinity ; not of the father onely but also of the sonne a , and of the holyghost b . q. what are the things that are created ? a. all things without exception , that have a being , except god onely who did create them , act. . . & . . & , . gen. . . rev. . . q. doe you meane that the third heaven was also created by god ? a. yes , for that heaven is said to be a city whose builder , & maker is god , heb. . . . q. but what thinke you of the angels , were they also created by god ? a. angels are the cheife of those invisible things , those thrones and dominions , principalities , and powers , which are expressely mentioned to have been created by the lord . col. . . q. wherewith did god make the world ? a. though men must have tooles , and instruments , and sometimes more hands then their owne for the effecting of works ; yet when the lord made the world , with him it was not so . q. how then or wherewith did he make it ? a. he made it himselfe alone c , and without any other meanes but onely by his word d . q whereof or of what materials did he create the world ? a. not of any praeexistent matter , but of nothing heb. . . rom. . . q. how do you meane when you say that all things are made of nothing ? for the body of adam was made of the dust of the ground , and fishes of the waters , and therefore it may seeme all things were not made of nothing . a. i meane that some things were made of nothing without any matter at all , and that the first matter whereof other things were made , was not eternall , but was immediately created of nothing ; and that that first matter was so in ▪ disposed to be the things that were made of it , that no lesse a power was seene in making other things out of it , then in making that first matter , or the lumpe it selfe ; as it was as great a worke to bring great whales out of the waters , as to bring forth the water out of nothing ; and in these respects , all things may be said to be made of nothing . q. in what time was the world created ? a. every particular thing quickly , and as it were in an instant e , and the whole in the space of six dayes f . q. what was the worke of each day ? a. the worke of the first day was heaven , the darke and deepe lumpe of earth , and waters , and light . q. what of the second day ? a. the firmament which is called heaven . q. what of the third day ? a. the gathering of the waters together , which is called sea , the drying of the earth , and making it fruitfull . q. what of the three last dayes ? a. on the fourth day sun , moone , and starres , on the fifth day fish , and foule , on the sixt day beasts and creeping things , and man . q. when was the highest heaven , and angels created ? a. most likely on the first day , gen. . . iob. . q. why was god sixe dayes in making the world ? a. not because hee needed so much time , but that we might more distinctly consider of his workes . q. why did god make the world ? a. not because he needed it , for he is alsufficient in and of himselfe , not needing any thing , but giving into all life , and breath , and all things act. . . q. did he make it out of necessity of nature , ot because he could not choose ? a. no , for had he pleased , he might have made it sooner , or later , or not at all . q. why then did he make it ? a. because it so pleased him , revel. . . q. for what end did god make the world ? a. for the declaration of his owne glory . prov. . . rom. . . col. . . q. what was the state of all things by creation ? a. god looked upon all the worke which he had made , and behold it was very good . gen. . . chap. . of gods providence . q. what is the providence of god ? a. that whereby god doth preserve , and governe , dispose , and order all creatures with all their actions . a. what scriptures do shew that there is such a providence of god ? q. many , and namely these , ioh. . . eph. . . act. . . . lam. . : eccles. . . &c. q. how els may the same be proved ? a. such is the wisedme , and knowledge of god , that nothing can come to passe , but he must needes know it , and such is his omnipotency , that what he absolutely would not have to be , he is able to hinder it , and therefore nothing falls out but he seeth it , and by his providence hath an hand therein . q. what are the parts of gods providence , or the severall acts of it ? a. preserving of the creatures a and goverment of them b . q. what need is there of the providence of god for the preservation of creatures ? a. yes very much , aswell as of his power for the creating of them . q. how may that appeare ? a. not onely because making , and preserving of the creatures , are coupled together as acts of the same power c . but also because otherwise the creatures could not continue in being , but would soon returne to nothing d . q. and why must the government of the creatures be also ascribed to god ? a. partly because it would argue inperfection in god , if he should make creatures , and leave the government of them to others ; and partly because the creatures would never certainly ▪ attaine the ends for which they were created , if they were not governed by the same power by which they were created . q. vvhat are the things whereto the providence of god doth extend ? a. all things without exception of any . rom. . eph. . q. vvhat are some sorts of them ? all persons , and all living things , though never so meane e , and all the very accidents , and circumstances of actions , as the times , and seasons of them f and the like . q. what kinde of actions of the creatures are ordered by the providence of god ? a. all kinde of actions , whether they be great or small g , whether they be of kindnesse , and favour unto men , or of judgement & correction h . vvhat else ? a. actions that are most contingent , and casuall i , and actions wherein the creature is most sinfull , and wicked k . q. how farre forth hath god an hand by his providence in the sinfull actions of creatures ? a. partly by permitting sinne to enter , when he could easily hinder the same , if he pleased ; and partly by disposing and ordering of it for good ends . a. how doth god permit the entrance of sinne ? a. partly by leaving men to themselves , not bestowing upon them his grace , that might keep them from sinne l , and partly by letting sathan loose upon them to be blinded , and mis-led by his temptations m . q. how is this just that god should deny the assistance of his grace , and leave men to themselves , and the temptations of sathan ? a yes , it is very just , because he is debtor to none , but may bestow his grace where , and upon whom he pleaseth . rom. . . mat. . . q. vvhat else may be said for the cleering of gods justice herein ? a. god being the judge of the world may punish sinne with what punishment he seeth meete , and so by giving sinners up unto further sinne , ps. ● . . . rom. . , , . &c. thes . , . q vvhat may be some instance of gods disposing and ordering of sinne for good ends ? a. the sinne of joseph brethren when they sold him into egypt , which god disposed , and ordered for the preserving of iacob and his house in time of famine . gen . . . & . . q vvhat else ? a. the sinne of amnon , and absolom which god disposed and ordered for the correction , and humiliation of david . sam. . . , . q. vvhat may be a third instance hereof ? a. the great sinne , and wickednesse of them who put the lord jesus christ to death , as fowle a fact as the sunne ever saw , and yet even this did the lord dispose , and order for the redemption and salvation of his elect , act. . . & . , . q. but if god by his providence have a stroake in ordering of the sinnes of men , is not god himselfe then tainted with sinne ? a. no , by no meanes : for god cannot be tempted of evill n , neither doth any sin proceed from him o , but contrarily he is then holy , holy , holy , when he gives men up to be hardened in their sinnes p . q. vvhat else may be said for the further learning of this truth ? a. god is so far from being tainted hereby with the uncleannesse of sinne , that his wisdome and goodnesse doth hereby the more appear , in that he can worke good by evill instruments , and make even sinne it selfe to seeme to his glory . q but whether may not sinners then hereby have excuse for themselves , and lay the blame of their sin upon god ? a. if god did infuse corruption into the hearts of men , or incline them or command them to sins who else were unwilling so to doe , then there were more colour for this demand ; but this cannot be affirmed with truth . q. vvhat then is truth in this case ? a. god made man altogether righteous and upright q , and gives men an holy commandement that prohibits all sinne r , and yet they sinne of their owne accord s , and therefore their destruction ( and so their sinne as cause thereof ) is of themselves t . q. may not this be illustrated by some similitude , to shew how god may have an hand in the evill actions of men , and yet all the sinfulnesse of the action be wholly of the creature and not of god ? a. as he that spurs a lame horse , is the cause of his going , but not of his halting , which is from the beast himselfe ; and as the sunne shining on a carcasse , or a dunghill , is the cause of the savour , but not of the stench which is from the carcasse it selfe ; even so it is in this case . q. how or in what manner doth the providence of god put forth , and shew it selfe ? a. most freely and as it pleaseth him u , most commonly in the ordinary use of the means w and sometimes it pleaseth him to work without meanes x . q. how else doth the providence of god put forth and shew itselfe ? a. sometimes by working great and mighty workes by weake meanes y , sometimes by disapppointing the best and the most probable meanes that they become ineffectuall , z ; and sometimes by working contrary to all meanes , and the naturall course of things a . chap. . of angels . q. what are the kindes of gods providence ? a. it is either generall towards all creatures , or specially towards some . q. what are those speciall creatures which the providence of god doth extend unto ? a. angels and men . q. vvhat is the nature of angels ? a. they are spirits b or spirituall substances , and therefore invisible that they cannot be seene with bodily eyes , no more then the wind that bloweth , or the soules of men , nor are they preserved by sleep and food , & raiment , as living bodyes are c ; and yet they are immortall , and cannot dye d . q. vvhat else are we to know concerning the nature of angels ? a. that they are creatures of excellent strength e , great acutenesse of understanding f , very swift and speedy in their motion g , and by creation very pure , and holy h . q. what is the number of angels ? a. though they be not infinite , yet their number is very great , and to us they are innumerable . dan. . . ps. . . mat. . . heb. . q. what end and office were they created for ? a. to celebrate the lords praises , and to execute his commands i , specially towards the heirs of salvation k . q do the angels continue in that estate wherein they were first created ? a. not all , for a great many fell away from that happy condition who are now become devils , ioh. . . . pet. . . iude . q. may the rest also fall away , and perish with the devils ? a. no , because they are elected of god , and so for ever upholden in that good estate . tim. . . chap. . of the estate of man in innocency by creation . q how doth the providence of god exercise it selfe towards man ? a. in a fourefold estate ; the state of innocency by creation afore the fall , the state of corruption by and since the fall , the state of grace in this world , and the state of glory in the world to come . q what was the state of man in innocency by by creation afore the fall ? a. god did as it were deliberate with himselfe , the father son and spirit consulting together about the making of man a , and therefore it must needs be that the state of man at the first by gods creating of him , was very excellent . q. wherein did his cheife excellency consist ? a. in that he was made in the iikenesse and image of god . gen . . . q. what was that image of god ? a. principally it stood in knowledge , righteousnesse , and true holynesse col. . . eph. . . eccles. . . q. what was the knowledge that man was indued withall in that estate ? a. he did then truely , and distinctly know god , and the will of god b , with the nature of the creatures c , and his own present happinesse d . q. what was that holynesse and righteousnesse ? a. that his will , and affections , with his whole heart and soule , was exactly conformable to the revealed will of god . q. did not man in that state besides this conformty to god enjoy communion with god ? a. yes , at that time there was great amity , and love betweene god and man e , all the destance that is now being risen since as the effect and fruit of sinne . q did not the place where man was then put , something set forth his happinesse in that estate ? a. yes ; for he was placed in paradise which was an excellent garden planted by god himselfe , and abounding with all delight , and pleasures . gen. . , , , . q but seeing man was to worke and labour in the garden in dressing and keeping it , how doth this agree with happinesse ? a. yea very well , because happinesse doth not consist in idlenesse ; and as for his labour , it then was , and alwayes should have bin without paine , and wearinesse , if man had continued in that estate . q. what was mans condition at that time in respect of food and raiment ? a. the earth at that time was furnished with plenty , and variety of wholesome and delightsome fruits , and he had liberty to eat of them all , except onely of the tree of knowledge of good and evill . gen. . . q. his food then was excellent ; but what was his apparrell ? a. such was the strength and beauty of his body outwardly , and the perfection of gods image , wherewith he was clothed inwardly , that he had no neede of other bodily apparrell either in respect of shame or season of weather , and therefore he lived naked . gen. . . q. what was his condition in respect of other creatures ? a. all the fishes of the sea , all the birds of the ayre , and beasts of the field were all of them subject to his dominion , and rule , gen. . , , and . , . q. but what helpe had he in his condition against solitarinesse ? a. the lord saw it was not good for a man to be alone , and that amongst all the other creatures there was not a meete helpe for him , and therefore of a ribbe of his side he made a woman and brought her to the man to be his wife . gen. . . &c. q but why was man created last of all ceatures ? a. this also doth declare his excellency and happy estate by creation ; for being made last it appeareth thereby , that he was under god the end for which the other creatures were made , and so was more excellent then they , as the end is more excellent then the meanes . q how else did the time of mans creation declare his happinesse ? a. it appeareth thereby , that god would not make him before he had first provided for him , but brought him into the world as into a great store-house already fully furnished with all variety of good things that might be for his service and comfort . chap. . of the fall of our first parents . q. you have already shewed the state of man in innocency by creation , what things are to be dered concerning the state of corruption ? the beginning thereof which was the fall of our first parents , and the consequents of that fall in respect of sinne and punnishment . q. what scriptures do prove that adam and eve did fall from that state of innoceney and purity where in they were created ? a. many , but most especially the third chap. of genes . eccles. . . isa. . . rom. . , , . . tim. , . q who did fall ? a. first eve a , then adam b , and in him all man kind c that proceed from adam after the ordinary way . q. how did man fall ? a. by transgression d and disobedience e to the commandement of god , which was that they should not eate of the tree of knowledge of good and evill f . q wherein was this such a great offence ? for it may seeme a small matter to eat an apple or other fruit forbidden . a. this sinne was not small , but very great , as comprehending in it an heape and multitude of many other hainous evills . q what are some of those evils comprehended in this sinne ? a. there was great umbeliefe to doubt of the truth of gods threatning , there was great idolatry in preferring the counsell of satan afore the commandment of god , and great blasphemy in yeelding to satan , when he said god forbade them that tree because he did envy their happinesse . q. what evill else was there in that offence ? a. there was discontent with their estate , though it was exceeding good , abominable pride that would be like unto god , and horrible unthankfulnesse to sinne against god that had so highly advanced them . q. what further evil was in it ? a. there was curiosity in desiring to know more then god would have them to know ; also also they sinned needlesly and wilfully , that commandement being so equall and easie to have beene kept . q. how may that appeare ? a. because man then had no inward concupiscence or corruption of nature , as we now have , that could move him to breake the commandement , nor was he any necessitated thereto through any want , having such variety and abundance of other fruits , whereof he might freely eat . q. what may be a last particular to shew the hainousnesse of this first offence ? a. man shewed himselfe herein to be wretchedly carelesse of the good of his posterity , to whom in this act he was both unkind and cruell . q. how may that appeare ? a. in that by this meanes he brought sinne and misery upon them all . rom. . , , . cor. . . q. why should this sinne of adam bring the guilt of sinne and misery upon all his posterity ? a. because he stood at this time as a publike person in the roome of all mankind , we being all considered in him as members in the head , as children in his loines , as debtors in our surety , and as branches in our roote . q. vvhat was the cause of this great and lamentable offence ? a. it was not any weaknesse or want of power in man to stand ; for being made in gods image he might have stood if he would . q. you thinke then he was not compelled and forced to sinne and breake the commandment ? a. god was so farre from forcing him to sin that he gave him power to have obeyed , and threatned him with death in case of disobedience . q. but might not satan compell him to it ? a. satan could doe nothing against him by compulsion or constraint , and therefore doth onely assault him by crafty and subtill perswasions ? q. vvhat then was the cause of this their sinne ? a. the principall cause was man himselfe in abusing his owne freewill , to receive the temptation , which he might have resisted if he would , eccles. . . q how farre was satan a cause of that first offence ? a. though he could not constraine man to sinne without his own consent , yet he was justly to be blamed for that sinne of man , in that it was through his entisements that man was drawen unto it . q. how did he entise man to it ? a. by abusing the serpent to seduce the woman , and the helpe of the woman to seduce the man . gen. . , . q. vvhat are the effects and fruits of his fall ? a. by means of this fall both the serpent and satan became accursed , and adam and eve and their posterity plunged into a depth of sin and misery . gen. . chap. . of sinne ; the definition of it , and the distribution into original and actual . q. what is sinne ? a. transgression of the moral law of god , by a creature that is bound to keepe it ? q. why is sin said to be a transgression of the law ? a. because the apostle iohn doth expresly so call it a , and elsewhere it is said where there is no law b , there is no transgression q. why say you that sinne is a transgression of the law of god onely ? for are not transgressions of the lawfull commandements of parents and other superiors , sins also ? a. yes so farre as they tend to the dishonour of superiors , such transgressions are also sins ; but the reason of that is because obedience to the lawfull commands of superiors is enjoyned in the fifth commandement of the law of god , in which respect god is said to be the onely law-giver iam. . . q. but why doe you make sinne a transgression onely of the morall law , sith unbeliefe and impenitency though they be against the gospel , are also sinnes , and so were violations of the ceremoniall law that was given to israel by moses ? a. violation of the ceremonies by the people of israel was a sinne , because the observation of them was enjoyned to that people in the second commandement of the moral law , like a●… the observation of baptisme and the lords supper are now enjoyned to christians by the same commandement . q and why are unbeliefe and impenitenci●… sinnes ? a. though these be directly against the gospel , yet they are also sinnes when they are found in them to whom the gospels comes , as being against the first commandement of the law , which enioynes obedience to god in whatsoever he hath shewed or shall shew to be his wil . q. why do you make sinne a transgression of the law by a creature ? a. because god the creator may do things forbidden in the law , and yet not sinne , as to kill and destroy ; because the law is not a rule to him but to us , his owne will being his rule , eph. . . ps. . . q. why is it added , by a creature bound unto it ? a. because though angels may sinne , yet many things in the law , specially in the fifth and seventh commandement are not applyable to angels ; and as for other creatures , the law is no rule to them at all . q. who among men are tainted with sinne ? a. all that are meere men , none excepted eccles. . . rom. . . and . . q. how many sorts of sinne are there ? a. besides that first offence of eating the forbidden fruit , there is the corruption of nature which is usually called originall sinne , and the sinnes of life which are usually called actuall . q. what is the nature of originall sinne ? wherein doth it consist ? a. it consists in the losse of gods image wherein man was created at the first c , and in a contrary vitiousnesse instead thereof d , q. what is the measure or greatnesse of this sinne ? a. it contaynes not onely some one or few particular evils , but a masse of all iniquities , even the most abominable that can be named or imagined rom. . . . &c. q. how farre doth this sinne extend ? a. it overspreads the whole race of mankind as a contagious leprosie and epidemical disease e , and infects all the powers and parts both of soule and body f . q. how is this sinne propagated ? a. it is conveyed from parents to children not by imitation but by generation ; gen . . psal. . . iob . . ioh. . . q. what do you understand by actuall sinnes ? a. all omissions of good g . and failing in the maner of doing it h , and all committing evill whether in thoughts i , words k , or deeds l , against any of the commandements of god . q. who are guilty of actuall sinnes ? a. all the children of men m ; and they that sinne the least , yet doubtlesse would do more if the lord did not restraine them n . q. but though all men be thus defiled with sinne , yet may not a naturall man doe some things that are good ? a. hee may do things that are good for the act or matter of them o , but his person not being accepted p , and hsi heart q . so exceedingly corrupted , therefore all that he doth as it proceeds from him , is corrupt also and so most odious unto god r , chap. . of the punishment of sinne . q. sith all the children of men are thus wofully defiled with sinne , what punnishment is due by reason of the sinne ? a. in one word all kind of death a , and cursednesse b . which in the particulars containes all the plagues that are written in gods book c , and many more which are not written d . q. what are the generall heads of those plagues ? a. they are temporall , and spirituall , and eternall . q. what are the temporall plagues . a. the cursing of the earth e , and the creatures made subject to vanity f , and the bodyes of men become subject to plagues and paines and death g . q. what else ? a. in name ignominie and reproach , both alive and after death h , and calamities in mens wives , children and friends i q. vvhat other outward miseries are there ? a. in the outward estate poverty and losses k , and their very blessings to be turned into curses l , q. vvhat are the spiritual miseries ? a. the losse of gods image and all comfortable communion with him m , with bondage to the divell n , and a necessity of sinning o . q. vvhat else are the spirituall miseries ? a. vvhen men are given up unto more sinn p as unto hardnesse of heart q , blindnesse of mind r and strong delusions s , q vvhat is the eternall miserie ? a. damnation and destruction in another world , thes. . . iob. . . q. vvherein doth that consist ? a. in being deprived of all good , and in the contrary sense and feeling of evill . q. vvhat good shall the wicked be then deprived of ? a. they shall then be deprived of the favourable presence of god t , of the joyes of heaven u , of the society of the saints w , and all comfort of the creature , x , q. and what evill shall they then have the feeling of ? a. they shall feele unspeakeable torment both in soule and body , mar. . , , . luk. . , . q. vvhat will be the effect thereof ? a. it wil cause weeping & gnashing of teeth y , the former through griefe and dolour , and both of them through indignation and despaire q. if they must be deprived of heaven , and of the presence of god and of his saints , what place and company shall they be in ? a. they shall be in hell as in a prison z , or deepe pitt a , or lake that burneth with fire and brimstone b , and their company shall be no other but the divell and his angels c . q. this punishment of the damned is in it selfe most dreadfull and terrible , but how long shall it continue ? a. the thing were something lesse grievous , if this misery would ever have an end ; but this is the aggravation of it that it must be everlasting , thes. . . matth. . . . matth. . , . chap. . of mans deliverance . q. having spoken of the state of man by creation , and his estate of corruption , let us now come to the third estate , the state of grace in this life ; and first tell me whether there be any ability in man to deliver himselfe from his sinfull and miserable estate ? a. none at all ; because man being dead in trespasses and sinnes , hath no more ability to recover himselfe to spirituall life , then he that is bodily dead to recover himselfe to bodily life . eph. . . & . . q. how else may this inability of man appeare ? a. man of himselfe is without strength a to any thing that is good ; and moreover , if he had power unto it , yet he hath no will to seek after god b , but to depart further and further from him c yea to expresse all enmity against him d q. what may be a further reason to shew that man cannot deliver himselfe ? a. man being a creature , is but finite ; and the majesty and justice of god which by sinne is offended and wronged , is infinite . q. what doe you infer from thence ? a. because there can be nothing in a finite sinning nature to satisfie an infinite offended majesty ; but such a nature must be ever in satisfying , and never have satisfied ; therefore it was not possible that man should deliver himselfe from his sinfull and miserable estate . q if man could not deliver himselfe , might be not be delivered by some other creature ? a. there is no man that can give a ransom to redeem another , so much as from bodily death e and much lesse from spiritual and eternal death . q. but if one man could not redeem another , what doe you say of other creatures ? a. other creatures are none of them of the same nature with man , and are all of them but finite , even the angels themselves ; and therefore none of them can make satisfaction to the infinite majesty of god . q. if infinite justice must needs he satisfied , and neither man nor other creature are able to doe this ; how then was there any possibility that man should ever be delivered from this wretched estate ? a. the mercy of god is so infinite that he might be willing that man should be delivered , and his wisdome such that he could finde out some way and means of deliverance ; and his power such that he was able to accomplish the way which his wisdom should devise ; and therefore there was a possibility that man should be delivered . q. but whether is there any way of deliverance already found out , and man actually recovered ? a. yes , the lord hath wrought redemption , and raised up an horne of salvation for his people , psal. . . luke . . q. is god himselfe then the authour of mans deliverance ? a. mans misery being sinne against god , and punishment from god , therefore god onely must be the authour of his deliverance , if he ever be delivered . q. what moved god to work mans deliverance ? a. not because he had any need of man e , for he could have been absolute and alsufficient of himselfe , if all men had perished everlastingly , as he was before man had any being . c q. did god procure mans deliverance , because man did so deserve ? a. man deserved it not , but the contrary , because he fell wilfully from that happy estate wherein he was created , whenas he might have continued happy if he would : therefore it had been no unrighteous thing if god had left him in that misery whereinto he had brought himselfe , pro. . . q. did the lord worke the deliverance of man , because man did importunately seek and sue unto him for the same ? a. man did not seek and sue unto god at all , but fled from him , gen . . rom. . . and if he had sought unto god for helpe , god was not bound to afford it ; and how much lesse when he sought it not ? q. if god did not worke the deliverance of man because himselfe had need of it , or because man did desire it , what then was the cause that moved him to it ? a. onely his free grace , mercy , and love , iohn . . eph. . , . titus . , . q. what is the true way and means of deliverance ? a. onely the lord jesus christ , genes . . acts . . iohn . . chap. . of the person of christ , and his divine and humane nature ? q. what things are to be known and believed concerning christ ? a. his person , his office , his actions , the benefits that come by him , and the means how we are made partakers of him and all his benefits . q. what is his person ? a. it is god and man united together in one person . q. how may it be proved that christ is god ? a. by sundry places of scripture , wherein he is expresly so called , isa. . . iohn . . rom. . . phil. . . iohn . ● . q. how else ? a. because eternity a omnipotency b omniscience c and omnipresence d which are properties peculiar to god , are all of them ascribed unto christ . q. how else may the godhead of christ be proved ? a. because the creation of the world e the forgivenesse of sinnes f the working of miracles g which are workes that can be done by none but god , are all of them ascribed to him as the authour of them ; and because he is made a lawfull object of divine worship h q. why was it requisite that christ our saviour should be god ? a. that he might beare the weight of gods wrath without sinking under the same i that he might overcome death k and his sufferings might be of sufficient worth and value to satisfie the infinite justice of god l q. is christ also truely partaker of the nature of man ? a. yes , for he is frequently called man , and the sonne of man m and said to be made flesh n and partaker of flesh and blood o q. why was it requisite that he should be man ? a. that he might suffer death for us p sanctisie our nature q and that we might have accesse with boldnesse unto god r q. but sith he was god from everlasting , how came be to be man also ? a. when the fulnesse of time was come s he became man , not after the ordinary and usuall way of generation by man and woman together , but he was conceived by the holy ghost in the womb of a virgin , without a father t q. sith there are two natures in christ , the divine and humane , whether is christ then two persons ? a. by no means , but one onely , cor. . . tim. . . q. but is not christ a person in respect of his godhead ? a. yes , the second person in the blessed trinity . q. is not another man who hath the whole nature of man in him , both body and soule , a perfect person ? a. yes , it is even so . q. why then is not the humane nature in christ a distinct person ? a. because it never had subsisting and being of it selfe , but in the person of the son of god being assumed unto it from the first moment of its being , heb. . . q. if both the humane and divine nature be in christ , and yet christ but one person ; is then the godhead become the manhood , and the manhood the godhead ? a. not so ; this union of two natures in one person doth not confound the two natures , nor destroy the properties of either ; but these still remain unconfounded and distinct in that one person . chap. . of the office of christ to be a mediator . q. having spoken of the person of christ , tell in the next place what is christs office ? a. his office in the generall is to be a mediator between god and man , to worke reconciliation betwixt them . tim. . cor. . , . q. what need was there of such a mediator ? a. very much need , because by the sinne of man there was now grown enmity between them , god being offended with man , and man being enemy to god . rom. . , . col. . . q. is christ the onely mediator ? or are there not others that may be mediators also ? a. properly there is no other mediator between god and man but christ onely , tim. . . iohn . . q. who gave christ a commission or calling to the office of a mediator ? a. as no man can lawfully intrude himselfe into any office without a lawfull calling , no more did christ intrude himselfe into the office of a mediator , but was lawfully called and authorized thereunto by the father , isa . , . iohn . . & . . heb. . , . q. how was he furnished with gifts and abilities for discharge of this office ? a. as god never calleth any to any office , but he gives them gifts requisite thereto : so christ was furnished with all wisdom & knowledge , and other gifts of the spirit , that might fully fit him for his office of mediator , col. . . isa. . . & . . & heb. . . iohn . . q. whether is christ mediator according to his humane nature , or according to his divine ? a. the office of mediation belongeth to whole christ , as he is god and man , and not in respect of either nature alone . q. how may that appeare ? a. a mediator should be a fit and middle person to deale between two that are at variance : but if our mediator be considered as god onely , he should then be too high to treat with man , and had he been man only he should have been too low for god . q. vvhat may be a further reason thereof ? a. if the acts of his mediation doe proceed from him , being considered onely as god , they then cannot be applicatory unto us ; and if they proceed from him onely as man , they then cannot be of sufficient value to be satisfactory unto god . q. doe you then think that in the execution of his office of mediator both the natures doe joyntly concurre ? a. it is even so indeed ; god-man , whose christ is our mediator . q. how long hath christ had this office ? a. in respect of gods decree he was appointed to it from eternity a in respect of vertue and efficacy he was mediator from the beginning of the world when need was b q. but when was he manifested in the flesh ? a. in respect of his manifestation in the flesh , he was given in the fulnesse of time in these latter daies , pet. . . gal. . . tim. . . q. vvhat is the effect and benefit of his mediatorship ? a. hereby god and man that were at enmity are reconciled together againe , and made one , col. . . eph. . . & . , . chap. . of the covenant between god and man , the covenant of worke , and the covenant of grace , and the difference between them . q. how doth christ as mediator reconcile god and man again ? a. by making a new covenant and agreement betwixt them , which is called the covenant of grace ? q. is the covenant of grace made with respect to christ ? a. yea , had it not been for christs sake , and through his mediation , god would never have made such covenant with man . q. how may that be proved ? a. this covenant is said to be confirmed in christ a and christ is said to be the mediator of the covenant b the angell of the covenant c and sometimes the covenant it selfe d q what is this covenant of grace . a. that wherein god for christ his sake promiseth forgivenesse of sinnes , and everlasting happinesse to them that believe on christ . q is there not mention in scripture of some other covenant of god to man , besides this covenant of grace in christ ? a. yes , there is that generall covenant with mankind , that the word should not be drowned any more with water , and that the succession of day and night , and other seasons , should be maintained as long as the earth shall endure . gen. . . & . . q these covenants are onely concerning externall and earthly lessings ; but is there not some covenant concerning everlasting happinesse , besides that covenant of grace in christ ? a. yes , that which is usually called the covenant of works , gal. . , . rom. . . q what is that covenant of works ? a. that whereby god promiseth all life and happinesse , upon condition of perfect obedience to the law in a mans own person , with a threatning of everlasting death & cursednesse for the least transgression , rom. ● . . gal. . . gen. , . q vvherein do these two covenants differ ? a. the covenant of works being made with man in innocency may be called a covenant of amity or friendship between god and man being friends ; but the other is a covenant of gracious reconciliation , when sinne had brought in enmity betwixt them , cor. . , . q. vvhat is another difference ? a. the one belongs to adam , and all his posterity ; the other belongs onely to the elect , or at the most onely to such as have the gospel preached to them , eph. . . q is there not some difference in regard of the blessings promised to either of them ? a. yes for the one promiseth life upon condition of perfect obedience ; but if sinne be once committed , it knows of no forgivenesse , nor recovery e but the other promiseth forgivenesse of sinnes f and renovation of our natures g and to write the law in our hearts h . q how do they differ in regard of the conditions of them ? a. the one promiseth nothing but upon condition of fulfilling the law in our own persons i , which to man since the fall is utterly impossible k ; but the covenant of grace promiseth life upon condition of believing in another , the lord jesus christ l q. vvhat are the effects of either of these covenants ? a. the one now works nothing but the discovery of sinne m , and bondage n , and wrath o , requiring many things , but not giving any power to perform p , but the other worketh in us what it requireth of us , being the ministration of the spirit , and righteousnesse and life q ; and the power of god to salvation r q. vvhat is the continuance of either of them ? a. the one is broken by the sinne of man s , and abrogated to them that are in christ t but the other shall never be removed nor disanulled to them that have once truly believed in him u q. vvas the covenant of grace revealed and dispensed in the times afore christs incarnation , or only since his comming in the flesh ? a. there hath been the same covenant of grace for substance , in all times and ages of the church , since the fall of man till this day , gen. . . & . , . iohn . . acts , . heb. . . q. but hath there not been some difference between the administration of the covenant of grace in former times , and in these daies . a. yes , there hath been difference in regard of the manner of administration , and therefore it is that they are called two covenants , or testaments , the old and the new w when for substance it is but the same . q. vvherein stands that different manner of administration ? a. then it was more burden some in regard of the multitude of ceremonies and sacrifices , now it is more easie ; then it was more darke , in regard of types and shadows , now apparent and cleer . q. vvhat may be the further difference ? a. now there is more power and efficacy of the spirit , and the graces of it , in the hearts of gods people genreally , then was then : and whereas then it was only to be one people , now it is to all nations . chap. . how christ is the prophet , priest , and king unto his people , and in particular of his propheticall office . q. you have shewed that the office of christ in generall is to be a mediator , to reconcile god and man together by meanes of the new covenant , or covenant of grace ; tell me now what are the speciall parts of his mediatorship ? a. he is a prophet , a priest , and king . q. how may it be proved that christ hath this threefold office of prophet , priest , and king ? a. first , by the condition of his people , lying under a threefold misery of ignorance , estrangement from god , and inability to recover themselves , and return unto god again , q. how doth this prove it . a. the first of these miseries is holpen by christs propheticall office , the second by his priestly , and the third by his kingly . q. how else may this threefold office of christs be proved ? a. by the order and manner of bestowing salvation upon his people , which must first be revealed and made known , then purchased and procured , and lastly effectually applied . q. and how doth this prove it ? a. the first of these is done by christs propheticall office , the second by his priestly , and the third by his kingly . q. vvhat may be a further proofe of this three fold office of christ ? a. the practice of christ , who first lived as a prophet teaching the will of god secondly as a priest he offered himselfe on the crosse ; and then as a king he applies unto his people all the benefits of his passion . q. come we now to the particulars , and tell me how it may be proved that christ is a prophet to his people ? a. because he is expresly so called a , as also by other titles importing the same thing ; q. vvhat are those other titles ? a. he is called counsellor b , messenger c , doctor or master d , apostle e , speaker f , the shepheard and bishop of our soules g , the faithfull and true witnesse h q vvhat is the work of christ as a prophet ? a. to reveale and make known to his people the counsell and will of god , deut. . . iohn . . & . . & . matth. . . q how doth he this ? a. outwardly by such means as he hath appointed , and inwardly by the teaching and illumination of his holy spirit . q. vvhat are the outward meanes ? a. they are divers and sundry , according as it pleased him i ; but chiefly they are the holy scriptures k , and the ministery of men appointed to speak in his name l q. what is the teaching of the holy spirit ? a. it is that inward work of the holy ghost upon the soule , whereby the outward teaching is made efficacious and powerfull for opening the understanding and humbling the heart to embrace the truth and will of god , iohn . . & . . iohn . q. when hath christ performed his office and function of a prophet unto his people ? a. both when he was upon earth in his own person m , and also in all times and ages of the church , both afore his incarnation n , and since his assention into heaven o q. how much of the will of god doth this prophet make known unto his people ? a. all that is requisite for our salvation ; iohn . & . . & . . & deut. . . q. what then is to be thought of all doctrines , traditions , revelations and ordinances which he hath not appointed ? a. they are all to be rejected and accursed p , as being injurious to the perfection and fulnesse of the propheticall office of christ : chap. . of the priesthood of christ . q. is christ also a priest ? a. yes , and is frequently so called , psal. . . heb. . . & . . & . , . & . , , . & . . & . . q was he a priest after the order of aaron ? a. no , but after the order of melchizedek , psa. . heb. . , . q. how may that appeare ? a. aaron was of the tribe of levi , but christ was of the tribe of iudah a ; and whereas aaron had father and mother , christ as he was man was without a father , and as god without mother b q. how else ? a. aaron and his successors being sinners , had need to offer sacrifice first for their owne sinnes , and then for the peoples : but christ being altogether without sinne , did offer sacrifice onely for the people . heb. . . & . . & . , . q. is there not some difference between the priesthood of aaron and christs priesthood , in respect of the manner of entrance in the same and continuance therein ? a. yes , for aaron and his successors were ordained without an oath ; but christ with an oath c . and whereas the priests of the law died and had successors , christ hath an unchangeable priesthood , continuing priest for ever d q. how doe these priesthoods differ in respect of the sacrifices offered thereby ? a. the one offered the bodyes and blood of beasts ; but christ offered up himselfe , and so was both priest and sacrifice , heb. . , , . q. is there not some difference in regard of the number of their sacrifices ? a. the sacrifices of the law were many , because of their imperfections , but christ hath offered up himselfe once for all , heb. . . & . , . & . , . q. what are the workes performed by him as a priest ? a. oblation or offering a sacrifice e , and making request or intercession for his people f q. what was the sacrifice which he offered ? a. himself as he is man g , his humane soule h , and body i q. vvhat kind of sacrifice was this ? a. it was bloody , or by blood k , it was spotlesse l , and perfect m , and most pleasing unto god n q. vvhat altar did he offer this sacrifice upon ? a. the altar must need be heavenly , as the priest and sacrifice were ; and the use of an altar being to sanctifie the gift , and therefore greater then it w ; and therefore it was not the crosse of wood , but the godhead of christ , which was the altar on which he sacrificed himselfe x q. whether is christ the only priest unto god in these daies , or are there not others who are priests also ? a. all christians are called priests to offer up unto god the spirituall sacrifice of prayer and thanksgiving , and the like y ; but to be a priest to offer up a sacrifice propitiatory is proper and peculiar unto christ onely z q. what acts doth christ perform in making intercession for his people ? a. he appeares in the presence of god for them a , presenting before god the vertue and value of his death and bloodshedding b , with some expression of his will before god for their good c q. in what manner doth he make this intercession ? a. not with teares and words , and prostrating of his body , as he did on earth , but in such a manner as is suitable to his state of glory . q. what are the benefits of this intercession of christ ? a. forgivenesse of sinnes daily continued and applied d , with continuance in gods favour e , and acceptance of our imperfect services f . q. what are the benefits of this intercession ? a. hereby believers are defended and secured against the accusations of all their enemies g , with certainty of salvation in heaven h . chap. . of the kingly office of christ . q. hath christ also the office of a king ? a. yes , for he is often expresly so called a , and hath the ornaments of a king ; q. what are those ornaments ? a. to sit upon a throne b , to weare a crown upon his head c , and to have a scepter in his hand d q. how is he king of his people ? as god onely , or as man also ? a. not as god onely , but as mediator , god and man in one person . q. how is that proved ? a. because he that was born and given to us hath the government upon his shoulders e , and he that was crucisied is made lord and christ f ; now to be born , and given , and crucified , cannot be said of god onely , q. how else may it appeare that christ is king not as god onely , but as man also ? a. because the time will come when he shall deliver up the kingdome to the father g but as god he shall reign with the father unto all eternity . q. is any work of christ as king anywhere expresly ascribed unto him as man ? a. yea , authority to execute judgement as a kingly work ; and this belongeth unto christ as man , iohn . . q. over whom is christ a king ? a. over all creatures in generall h , over the visible church in speciall i , and over the elect in a most speciall manner above all other k q how is he king over all creatures ? a. in sustaining and disposing of them all by his providence , as may be for his glory , and the good of the elect , heb. . . col. . . pro. . , . isa. . , . q. and how is he king of the visible church ? a. in that he gathereth men into it l , appoints ordinances and officers unto it m , and prescribeth laws n for the manner of carrying on all things therein ; q how doth christ all these things in the church ? a. he doth them all by his word , which is therefore called the word of the kingdome , mat. . . q. and how is christ king of the elect ? a. not onely by his providence , as over all creatures : nor only by his word and ordinances , as to the visible church , but also by the speciall working of the grace of his holy spirit in their hearts , ezek. . eph. . col. . q. hath not the kingly office of christ some that are enemies unto it ? a. yes , sin and the world , the divel and death . q. vvhat are the acts of christs kingly office in respect of those his enemies , and the enemies of his church and elect people ? a. to bridle o and subdue p them all . q. vvhat are the properties of christs kingdom ? a. it is lawfull q , spirituall r , powerfull s , righteous t , large u , and everlasting w chap. . of christ his humiliation . q. having spoken of the person & offices of christ , how are we in the next place to consider of his actions ? a. in a twofold estate : his state of humiliation , and his state of exaltation . q vvhat are the generall acts of his humiliation ? a. laying aside the full manifestation of his divine majesty for a time a , and assuming unto him the nature of man b q. vvhat else ? a. it was a great act of his humiliation , that he became subject to the law c , and not onely a man , but in the meanest condition of men d . q. vvhat may be evidences that he was a man of a very mean condition and state ? a. his poore birth , his afflicted and poore life , his shamefull and accursed death , with the things that follow afterward , do evidently shew the same . q. what was his poor birth ? a. he was born of a poor virgin for his mother who was espoused to a carpenter for her husband ; and when he was born was wrapped in swadling clothes and layd in a manger , because there was no room for his poor mother in the inne , luke . . q. what else was the testimony of his poore birth ? a. when he was presented to the lord in the temple with an offering , the offering was but a paire of turtle doves or two yong pigeons , which was an offering appointed at the birth of children of the poorest sort of people . luk. . . levit. . . q. what was his poore and afflicted life ? a. his fleeing into aegypt from the rage of herod e , his poverty in outward estate f , and his subjection to his parents g as any other child . q. vvhat else were testimonies of his afflicted life ? a. his temptations from the divell h , his wearysome journeys from place to place i , and his manifold persecutions from the hands and tongues k of wicked men , q. what was his shamefull , painefull and accursed death ? a. it was his crucifying or death upon the crosse l , which was a death accursed by the law m q. wherein was the shame of that death ? a. it was shamefull in that he was crucified in the midst betwixt two theeves n , and barabbas a murtherer counted more worthy then he o q. what else was the shame and paine of that death ? a. he was crowned with thornes , and otherwayes derided by the people and priests , his hands and feete were nailed to the crosse , and his side was pierced with a speare to the effusion of water and blood , math. . . . . iohn . . q. what else was there in his death ? a : that which was the greatest of all was , that he endured a grievous agony with his fathers wrath , mat. , . . and . . q what followed after his death ? a. he was buried in the grave p , and continued under the power and dominion of death for a time q , q. what was the end of all this humilation of christ ? q. that he might make satisfaction to the justice and honour of god , which had been wronged by our sinnes r , and to procure for us reconciliation with god and eternall life s , q. how came christ to be liable to make satisfaction for our sinnes ? a. because he voluntarily became our surety , and so was to pay the debt that we were in unto god , heb. . . psal , . . chap. . of the exaltation of christ , and his resurrection from the dead . q. having considered of christs humiliation , how are wee in the next place to consider of his exaltation ? a. the exaltation of christ is to be considered both in respect of his godhead and his manhood , and in the severall degrees thereof . q. what is his exaltation in respect of his godhead ? a. it is nothing else but the manifestation of that divine power and glory of his , which had beene so much concealed in all the time of his humiliation , iohn . rom. . : q and what is his exaltation in respect of his manhood ? a. it consists partly in laying aside all those infirmities which it had beene subject unto in the time of humiliation by hunger , thirst , wearinesse and the like , which are all of them removed and done away , cor. . . q. wherein else doth this exaltation consist ? a. in that the humane nature of christ was filled with all the glorious excellencies that a creature is capable of , and this both in respect of his soule a , and in respect of his body b , q. doth the bodie of christ by meanes of his exultation or glorification become infinite , or omnipresent or in many places at once ? a. as the soule of christ being glorified doth still retaine the nature of a soule : so his bodie doth still retaine the essentiall properties of a bodie c , and therefore is not infinite nor omnipresent , for that were to destroy its essentiall properties , q. vvhat are the degrees of christs exaltation ? a. his resurrection from the dead , his ascention into heaven , and his sitting at the right hand of god . q. vvhat meane you by his resurrection from the dead ? a. i meane that his body which was dead was quickned againe d , by the uniting together of his soule and body againe , which in death had been separated : and also that being quickned he came forth again out of the grave e . q. vvhat certainty is there of this resurrection of christ ? a. the scripture saith that christ is risen indeed f , and his resurrection hath beene witnessed by many cleare and pregnant testimonies , q. vvhat are those testimonies ? a. the blessed angels did witnesse that christ was risen from the dead g ; so also did the watchmen which were set to have kept him from rising h , and likewise certaine godly women i , to whom he shewed himselfe alive after his resurrection . q. what further testmonies was there of christs resurrection ? a. the apostles who were witnesses appoined of god for this end k , doe frequently testifie the same l . q. did not christ also declare his owne resurrection by shewing himselfe upon earth after he was risen from the dead , afore he ascended into heaven ? a. he shewed himselfe alive by appearing to many within the space of those forty dayes betweene his resurrection and ascention acts . . q. what are some of those apparitions of christ in those dayes ? a. he appeared to mary magdalen m : and to other godly women n , to two disciples as they were going to emmaus o , and to all the disciples together except thomas p . q. to whom else ? a. to the disciples at another time and to thomas being with them q , to seven of them at the sea of tiberias r , to the eleven a in mountain of galilee s , and upon the mount of olives t , and to above five hundred brethren at once u . q. you have sufficiently shewed the certainty of christs resurrection ; tell likewise the time of it , when it was that he arose . a. hee rose againe the third day after he was put to death , cor . . q. by what power did he rise againe ? a. by the power of the father w , and his owne almighty power x . q. what were the ends of his resurrection ? a. he rose againe to shew the dignity of his person y , to fulfill the scriptures z , and to shew that there was sufficiencie of merit and satisfaction in his death a . q. open this last a little more plainely . a. when a suretie apprehended and laid in prison hath fully discharged the debt , it is meete that then he should be released , and when he is released , it appeareth thereby that the debt is fully paid : so when christ had fully satisfied for our sinnes , it was meete he should be released from death , and being so released it appeareth thereby that satisfaction for our sinnes was fully made . q. what other ends were there of the resurrection of christ ? a. he rose that he might have lordship and dominion over quicke and dead b , which he had duely purchased by his suffering . q. could christ have performed the office whereto he was appointed , if he had not risen from the dead ? a. that may be another end of his resurrection , namely that he might performe the office of an eternall priest , and prophet and king unto his people , which he could not have done if he had still remained under the power and dominion of death . q. what are the benefits of christs resurrection ? hereby believers may be assured of their iustification from all their sinnes c , of their spirituall rising to newnesse of life d , and of their resurrection to glorie at their last day e . chap. . of christs ascention into heaven . q when christ was risen from the dead , did he still continue upon earth ? a. no , but after a time he left this world , and ascended into heaven iohn . q what was the place from whence he did ascend ? a. in generall from this world , and in speciall from the mount of olives neere unto ierusalem acts . . q what was the place to which he did ascend ? a. the third heaven , farre above this earth , and all these inferior and visible heavens . mark . . luk. . . act. . . ioh. . . . eph. . . q. was this ascention of christ a true and reall mutation and change of place , or onely a change of his estate ? a. though christ in respect of his godhead be everywhere present a , and in respect of the power and comfort of his spirit be present with all his saints upon earth b ; yet his ascention into heaven was such a true and reall change of place , that in respect of his bodily presence he is now no more upon earth , but in heaven c , q. what was the efficient cause of christ ascention ? a. the power of the father , in respect whereof he is said to be received or taken up d ; and his owne almighty power , in respect of which he is said to ascend , or goe up e . q. when was the time of this ascention ? a. forty dayes after his resurrection from the dead act. . . q. why did he ascend no sooner ? a. because he would first sufficiently confirme the faith of the disciples concerning his resurrection , and fully instruct them in the things pertayning to the kingdom of god . acts . . q. why did he stay upon earth no longer ? a. to shew that it was not an earthly life , which he now affected or minded . q. who were witnesses of his ascention ? a. the disciples who were with him at that time upon the mount of olives , and certaine angel which then appeared . acts . . . . q. for what end did christ ascend into heaven ? a. that he might fulfill the scripture f , and fully performe his office g , and take possession of the glory that was due unto him h . q. what else were the ends and fruits of his ascention ? a. the leading of captivity captive i , the giving of gifts unto men k , the pouring out of his spirit upon his people l , and preparing a place for them m . chap. . of christs sitting at the right hand of god , and his returne to the last judgement . q : besides the resurrection and ascention of christ , what further degree is there of his exaltation ? a. his sitting at the right hand of god psal. . . mark . . . eph. . . col. . . heb. . , . and , . and . , . q. vvhat are we to understand by christs sitting at the right hand of god ? a. that fulnesse of excellent majestie and glorious dominion whereto he is now advanced , farre above the most glorious angels and every other creature , eph : . , , . heb. . . q. but divine dominion and soveraignty over all creatures belonging to the father and to the holy ghost , why is this peculiarly ascribed unto christ ? a. not in respect of right but the actuall and immediate exercise thereof ; for the former belonging to all the divine persons , this latter is now peculiarly committed unto christ : ioh. . . . act . . and . . q. vvho gave christ this great authority thus to sit at the right hand of god ? a. he did not come unto it by any unjust usurpation , but it was given unto him by god . eph. . . phil. . . iohn . . . and . . q. and why did god give this great advancement unto christ ? a. because the sonne did voluntarily humble himselfe to the greatest degree of obedience and humiliation ; therefore the father gave unto him this exaltation and advancement , as a reward and recompence of that his humiliation , phil. . . . isa. . . . q. doth christ sit at the right hand of god in respect of his divine nature onely or in regard of his manhood also ? a. this dignity belongs to christ as god and man in one person , and not in respect of one of his natures alone . q. how may that appeare ? a. because it is given to him immediately upon his ascention into heaven a , and is to be exercised by him both as davids lord b , and also as he is the sonne of man c . q. how long shall this sitting of christ at gods right hand continue ? a. vntill all his enemies be made his footstoole psa. . . . cor. . ? q. shall it never cease and have an end ? a. if we speake of his reigning and ruling in a way and manner peculiar and appropriate to his person , so we may safely say that when all his enemies are put under his feet , then shal be the end , when he shall deliver up the kingdome to the father , and himselfe be subject to him , cor. . , , . q. what shall be the last act of this glorious power and authority of christ , and so the last degree of his exaltation ? a. his returne to iudgement at the last day , when he shall come a second time into this world with unspeakable majestie and glory , to judge the quick and dead tim: . . act. . . and , . and mat. . . and . . & thes. . , , . chap. . of faith and union with christ . q. you have spoken of the person , offices and actions of christ ; you are now to shew the benefits that come by christ , and how we are made partakers of christ and of his benefits ? a. we are made partakers of christ and all his benefits by faith alone , iohn . . and . , , . and . . eph. . . and act. . . q. what meane you by faith ? a. that grace of the spirit whereby we receive christ , which is wrought in our hearts in our effectuall calling ? q how is faith wrought in effectuall callings ? a. effectuall calling consists of two parts , the offer of christ to the soule , and the soule excepting of that offer or the call of god when he calls the soule to come to christ , and the answere of the soule unto that call a : now this latter is nothing else but faith : q. how is faith wrought in us ? a. not by any power of our owne freewill b , or meerely by morall perswasion c ; for we are dead in sinnes and treepasses d . q. how then is it wrought ? a. by the almighty power of the spirit of god as the author of it e ; and by the word as the instrument thereof f , q. how doth the word worke faith ? a. the law prepareth for it g , by convincing the soule of sinne h , and terrifying for the same i , through the worke of the spirit of bondage k : q. and what doth the gospel ? a. it presents the excellency and worth of christ as an onely and alsufficient saviour l ; but withall convincing the soule of its great sinne in not beleeving in christ m , of its utter insufficiency to come to him n , and its great unworthynesse o to have any part or portion in him . q. what followeth hereupon ? a. hereby the soule feeling it selfe to be utterly lost is further and more kindely broken and humbled , luke . . isa. , , , . math. . . zac : . . q what else is done by the gospell in the working of faith ? a. it sweetly encourageth poore lost soules to come to jesus christ p , and enableth them so to doe , rowling and resting themselves upon him q , by the helpe of the spirit of grace r , which is ministred thereby s , q it seemes then you make christ the object of faith ? a. yea ; not onely the whole truth of god t , but specially christ jesus as he is set forth in the promises of the gospel , is the obiect of saving faith u , q. wherein doth the nature of this faith consist ? a. not onely in knowledge of the revealed will of god w ; and in assent to the truth thereof x ; for so much may be found in devils y . q. what is there more then this in saving faith ? a. there is also a comming unto iesus christ z , with affiance a , and reliance upon him b , q. what is the subject in whom this faith is wrought ? a. this faith is not wrought in any reprobate but only in the elect c ; and not onely in the understanding , or only in the will but in the whole heart d . q. and what an heart is it in whom this faith is wrought ? a. onely the heart of such an one as is now a poore , lost and broken-hearted sinner : math. . , and , . luke . . and . , , . q. vvhy say you so ? a. because till the heart be thus prepared , men will never come to christ e , nor can they truly beleeve on him f , q. vvhat thinke you then of those who professe themselves to be true beleevers , and yet were never in any measure thus prepared and humbled ? a. the case of such professors is very dangerous . q. why say you so ? a. because the fallow ground of their hearts being never broken up , they doe but sow among thornes g , & so the stoninesse of their hearts not being removed by any sound & thorough worke of contrition and humiliation , therfore though they may for a time receive the word with joy , and beleeve for a season , yet they are like to be but temporary beleevers , and in time of temptation fall away h , q. you have shewed the cause , and the object , the nature and subject of faith ; tell me now what are the principall effects of faith ? a. hereby we have union with christ himselfe i , and so communion with him in all the benefits which he hath purchased for the elect k . q. what understand you by union with christ ? a. that spirituall conjunction l betweene christ and the beleever whereby the beleever hath possesion of christ as his owne m , dwelling in christ n , and christ in him o , and is made one spirit with him p . q. by what comparisons or similitudes is this union expressed in scripture ? a. it is expressed by that union that is between the husband and wife q , the vine and the branches r , and the head and the members s . q. what benefit comes to beleevers by meanes of this their union with christ ? a. being one with christ , therefore christ will be sure to take all their injuries and afflictions as if they were his owne t , will free them from condemnation u , and afford unto them communion with him in all his benefits w , q. what are those benefits of christ wherein beleevers have communion with him by vertue of this their union ? a. some of the principal are justification x , adoption y , and sanctification z , besides which if god give us christ , he will with him freely give us all things also a . chap. . of justification & of adoption . q let us come to the first of these benefits which is our justification ; and first tell me what is the meaning of the word to justifie ? a. it doth not signifie to make an unjust man just by changing his qualities ; for then it were all one with sanctification from which it is distinct cor . . . q. what then doth it signifie ? a. to iustifie is frequently opposed to condenme a , and therefore it doth properly signifie to acquit from blame and punishment q. what is the cause of our justification . a. the impulsive cause that moveth god to justifie a sinner is nothing else but his free grace : rom. . tit . . q. vvhat is that for which god doth justifie ? a. god doth not justifie us without righteousnesse ; for then how should god be just b ? but he justifieth us by and for a righteousnesse which is most exact and perfect . q. what is that perfect righteousnesse ? a. not our own righteousnesse in obedience to the law c , for that is most imperfect d q. what righteousnesse is it then ? a. that perfect righteousnesse whereby we are justified is that righteousnesse which was wrought by christ , and inherent in his person , isai . , . ier. . . cor. . . cor. . . rom. . , . q. how comes the righteousnesse of christ to be ours , that we may be justified thereby ? a. god doth graciously impute it to us e , and faith is the instrument for the receiving of it f , that so by it we may be justified ; q. open this a little further , how faith is considered when we are said to be justified by faith ? a. faith is not considered in justification properly , as if the very act of believing were the matter of our righteousnesse ; neither doth it iustifie as a work or vertue in us by any merit of it selfe . q. why may not faith be considered in our justification as a work or vertue in us ? a. because all workes of ours are excluded from being any cause or matter of our justification g ; and therefore if faith were so considered , it must then be excluded also ; q. how then is faith considered when we are said to be justified by faith ? a. onely relatively in respect of the object of it , which is jesus christ and his righteousnesse . q. faith being not considered in our justification properly as a worke or vertue in us , it must needs then be considered relatively in respect of christ the object of it ; but how may the truth of this yet further appeare ? a. as the scripture saith we are justified by faith , so it also saith christ is our righteousnesse h , and that we are justified by christ i . q. vvhat else may be said for the further clearing of this truth ? a. sometimes this phrase , to be justified by faith , is expounded in the words immediately following , to be nothing else but to be justified by christ , gal. . . . q. vvhat are the parts of justification ? a. justification is onely one benefit of god vouchsafed to believers ; but there are two parts thereof inseparably conjoyned , namely , forgivenesse of sinnes through the sufferings of christ , and accounting a man just and righteous through the righteousnesse of christ imputed to him . q. vvhat is the object of justification , the persons whom god doth justifie ? a. onely the elect k , being by nature and in themselves sinners and ungodly l , but called by grace to be true believers in christ m . q. what is adoption ? a. an act of gods free grace n , whereby the elect o being in themselves aliens & strangers p from god , are upon their believing in christ q admitted for christs sake r , on whom they doe believe , into the houshold of god , and to the dignity and priviledge of his children s . q what are the benefits of this adoption ? a. by means hereof believers are brethren to christ jesus t , have title to the heavenly inheritance u and have liberty and boldnesse to make their requests to god w , as to a most gracious and loving father , with great assurance to be heard x . chap. . of sanctification , and the difference between it and justification ; and of foure other benefits of christ to believers . q. sanctification being another of those benefits that come by christ , and our union with christ , tell me first of all what sanctification is ? a. it is a true and reall change a , wrought by the spirit of god b , in the elect c , now believing on christ d : whereby the whole man e is changed and altered from the turpitude and filthinesse of sinne f , to the purity of the image of god . q. vvhat difference is there between the former benefit ▪ to wit iustification , and this of sanctification ? a. the materiall cause of the one is the righteousnesse of christ without us , imputed to us g : but the materiall cause of the other is a body of divine graces and qualities infused into the soule , created in us h . q. how doe they differ in respect of their formall causes ? a. the formall cause of justification is the pronouncing of the sentence of absolution , and accepting a mans person for righteous : the formall cause of sanctification is the restoring o gods image into the soule , by putting off the old man , and putting on the new , ephes. . , , q. how else doe they differ ? a. justification makes no reall change in the soule , as when the judge acquits a man , but makes him never a whit the more honest then before ; but sanctification makes a great change in the soule from sinne and corruption unto purity and holinesse , rom. . . tim. . . cor. . . q. what may be a fourth difference ? a. justification is perfect at the first , as one individuall act ; but sanctification is a graduall work , imperfect at the first , and growing by degrees . q. why doe you say that iustification is perfect at the first ? a. not in respect of the sense and feeling , and assurance of it , for these may increase and grow daily , and are therefore daily to be prayed for , mat. . . luke . . q. how then is justification perfect at the first ? a. in respect of the matter whereby we are justified , which is the imputed righteousnesse of christ , which is so perfect that a man can never have more all the daies of his life , though he should live as long as ever any did . q. is not sanctification also perfect at the first ? a. farre from it ; for the honest men upon earth have been sensible of such imperfection i in their sanctification , that they durst not stand to be justified before god thereby k . q. vvhat proceeds from this imperfection of sanctification ? a. a continuall combat between corruption and grace in the sanctified soule , gal. . . rom. . q. and what else ? a. a continuall exercise of repentance , and of fleeing to the grace of god in christ jesus , rom. . , . q. iustification , adoption , and sanctification are excellent benefits that come to believers through christ ; tell me what other benefits do accompany or flow from these ? a. in this life there doth accompany or flow from them assurance of gods love , lively hope , and expectation of glory , peace of conscience , and joy in the holy ghost , rom. . , , . & . . tit. . . q. if these things be vouchsafed to believers in this life , what shall they have in the life to come ? a. unspeakable glory and happinesse in the immediate fruition of communion with god and christ unto all eternity , col. . . iohn . . heb. . . cor. . . q but may not a true believer lose his faith , and so lose all these benefits that come by faith in this life , and fall short of eternall glory in the life to come ? a. if he should finally lose his faith , it would be so indeed ; but god that of his grace hath wrought this faith in him , will preserve and perfect the same untill the day of christ , phil. . . cor. . . q. doe you mean then that a true believer can never totally nor finally fall away , but shall persevere in grace unto the end ? a. yea , i mean so indeed ; this perseverance of believers in the state of grace being plainly and plenteously taught in the holy scriptures , pet. . . luke . , . iohn . , . & . . mat. . . ier. ● . . chap. . of the necessity of faith , its imperfection at the first , and the means whereby it may be increased : of hearing the word , and of baptisme and the lords supper . q. you have shewed many excellent benefits that come by faith ; but whether is faith of such necessity that these things cannot be without it ? a. such is the necessity of this grace of faith , that in respect of the usuall way of gods dispensation , there is no hope nor possibility that a man should escape wrath or attaine happinesse in this or in another world without faith , iohn . . mark . . heb. . . q. faith then is very profitable and necessary ; but whether is it perfect at the first , or groweth by degrees ? a. the best faith is imperfect in this life a , and is usually little at the first b , increasing and growing by degrees unto more perfection c . q. vvhat are the ordinary and usuall means for increasing of faith ? a. hearing the word d , communion of saints e , receiving of sacraments f , prayer g , reading h , meditation i and conference . q. when must we heare the word ? a. the usuall and ordinary time is on the lords day k , and other times also l are not to be neglected , when god gives such opportunity . q vvhat rules must be observed before we come to heare the word that we may get profit thereby ? a. we must lay aside our sinnes m , seriously consider the weightinesse of the work we goe about n , resolve to obey whatsoever shall be shewed to be the will of god o , and pray to him that he would teach us to profit p . q. vvhat rules must be observed in hearing ? a. reverent attention q , with spirituall affections r , giving credit to the truth s , and applying the word unto our selves t . q vvhat must we observe after we haue heard ? a. we must meditate of the same afterward u , confer of it with others w , pray to god for a blessing x , and set upon the practice of what is required y . q. vvhat is the generall nature of sacraments ? a. they are divine instructions annexed to the word , for the teaching of spirituall things , gen. . exod. . mat. . q. who is the author of sacraments ? a. onely god z , who is the author of those spirituall blessings and duties that are taught thereby . q vvhat are the parts of a sacrament ? a. two : an outward and visible signe , and an inward and spirituall blessing , which is the thing signified . q. who are to receive the sacraments ? a. the faithfull members of some visible church , and their seed , gen. . , . acts . . q. vvhat is the proper effect and use of a sacrament ? a. to be a signe and seale of the covenant between god and his people , and of those spirituall blessings which are promised therein , gen. . , . rom. . . exod. . mat. . q. how many sacraments are there ? a. in the new testament onely two : baptisme and the lords supper , mat. . . & . , &c. q. vvhat is the outward signe or part in baptisme ? a. water a , and washing therewith b , in the name of the father , sonne , and holy ghost c . q. what is the thing signified ? a. union with christ d , and forgivenesse of sinnes e , with sanctification in the mortifying of corruption , and quickning the soule to newnesse ▪ of life f . q. who ought to be baptized ? a. men of yeeres when once they are converted to the faith , and joyned to the churchg g ; and such infants whose parents , both or one of them are to be converted and joyned h . q. who is the author of the lords supper ? a. the lord jesus in the same night in which he was betrayed when he was about to lay down his life , which was the greatest act of love that ever was , cor. . , . q. vvhat is the outward signe in the lords supper ? a. bread and wine with the actions pertaining to them , which are breaking and pouring out , giving and receiving , eating and drinking , mat. . . cor. . , , &c. q vvhat is the spirituall blessing , or thing signified ? a. the generall sum thereof is christ himselfe , and our communion with him , and withall the benefits of his passion , mat. . , &c. cor. . q. what are the things signified more particularly ? a. the passion of christ , and his sacrifice upon the crosse , consisting in the crucifying of his body , and shedding of his blood , cor. . . q. what else ? a. the action of god the father giving k christ for and to the elect , with the action of christ giving himselfe l to death , and likewise giving himselfe to the soules of the faithfull . q. what is the third thing signified in the lords supper ? a. the act of faith , receiving christ and feeding on him spiritually m , so as to grow unto more communion with his n body and blood , and spirituall strength of grace thereby q. who ought to receive the lords supper ? a. such members of the church as are endewed with knowledge o spirituall affections p , faith q repentance r , love s , and thankfulnesse t . chap. . of prayer , and some other means of increasing faith . q. what is the generall nature of prayer ? a. not onely a wish or desire after this , or that ; for a man may have so much and never pray , iam. . . q. vvhat is it then ? a. prayer is an opening of the desire of the heart before god a , whether it be by ffighes and groanes b , or by words c , and other means d . q to whom must we pray ? a. to him that knoweth the heart e , and is almighty , and so able to help f , to him that is to be worshipped g , and believed in h , which is none but god . q. whether must we pray to god directly and immediately , or through a mediator ? a. onely through the mediation of jesus christ , iohn . & . . tim. . . heb. . . q. what are the parts of prayer ? a. petition and thanksgiving , phil. . . thess. . , . q. what is petition ? a. a prayer wherein we aske the preventing or removing of things hurtfull , and the bestowing of things needfull , mat . , , , . q what is thanksgiving ? a. a prayer wherein we desire that honour and glory may be given to god for what we have received i , or do believe we shall receive hereafter k . q. whether is not confession of our sinnes and miseries , and vows and promises unto god , parts of prayer ? a. they may be called adjuncts of prayer , because they are to be expressed or understood in every prayer . q. how may that appeare ? a. by this , because to come to god for mercy without an acknowledgement of our unworthinesse and misery , and to desire him to perform what he requires of us , is little better then a mocking of god . q. are there any for whom we must not pray ? a. yes ; we must not pray for the dead , because we cannot do it of faith , as having neither precept nor example , nor any good warrant for it in the world , rom. . . q. vvhy else may we not pray for the dead ? a. because such prayers cannot availe at all , but are altogether vain , pet. . . heb. . . q. for whom else must we not pray ? a. we must not pray for the salvation of all men living universally , for that is contrary to the revealed will of god l ; nor for any in particular that have sinned the sinne against the holy ghost m . q. for whom then must we pray ? a. for all other sorts of men now living n , both our selves and others o , whether they be friends or enemies p , and for some that shall live hereafter q . q. is there any rule of direction according to which we ought to frame our prayers ? a. yes , the whole will of god revealed for this purpose in the word r , and that pattern of prayer given by christ unto his disciples s . q. seeing god knoweth all our wants afore we pray , and hath determined with himselfe what he will doe for us , wherefore then should we pray ? a. not to inform him , as if he were ignorant of our estates , for he understandeth our thoughts afarre off t nor to change his minde , for his purpose is unchangeable u . q. why then ? a. we are therefore to pray , because god hath appointed prayer to be the way and means w whereby he will accomplish that which he hath purposed to doe for us . q. how must we pray that we may be accepted ? a. the persons praying must be righteous x humble y and upright z and the matter of prayer must be something lawfull and promised a . q. and what must be the manner of praying , and the end aymed at therein ? a. the manner must be in sense and feeling of our wants b ; with faith c , fervency d , and perseverance e ; and the end must not be that we may consume it upon our lusts , but for the glory of god f . q. what other means are there for the increasing of faith ? a. diligent reading of the holy scriptures g , and serious meditation therein h , with frequent and holy conference with others i chap. . of the church catholike or mysticall , and the difference between it and particular instituted churches . q. who is the subject of redemption , or of all that deliverance obtained by christ ? a. not the blessed angels , because having never fallen they needed no redeemer , nor all the race of mankind , for christ would not pray for the world , iohn . . q. who then were redeemed by christ ? a. he gave himselfe for none others but only for his church , eph. . . acts . . iohn . . & . . q. what is meant by the church in the holy scriptures ? a. it is usually taken in scripture , either for the catholique church a which is called the church mysticall , or else it is taken for the church instituted , or particular churches b . q. what is the difference between the catholike , universall and mysticall church , and the instituted or particular churches ? a. they differ in their number ; for the catholike church is but one church , one body c but of the other sort in the dayes of the new testament there are many churches d . q wherein do they differ in respect of the matter ? a. the catholike church hath none in it but saints , and all true beleevers are in it e : but particular churches have some times many wolves within f , and many sheepe without g , though it ought not so to be : eph. . , , , . heb. . . q. what is a third defference betweene them ? a. the forme which constitutes the catholike church is their union which christ by faith h but the forme of the other is the bond of an holy covenant i , to walk together in all the waies of christ . q. is there not some difference between them in regard of place ? a. yes , for some parts and members of the catholike church are now in heaven , and the rest shall all come thither in gods appointed time k ; but the members of particular or instituted churches are all of them upon the earth for the present , and some of them must never come in heaven l . q. what may be a fifth difference ? a. whereas particular churches are visible to themselves and others also , especially in times of peare m , the catholike church is properly a church invisible . q how is that proved , that the catholike church is invisible ? a. because some parts thereof are now in heaven : and those that are on earth never were nor will be all together that they might be seen . q. what may be a further proofe hereof ? a. their union whith christ wich is the form of that church , is knowne onely unto god . q name a sixth difference ? a. the catholike church and all the members of it continue for ever n ; but particular churches ! by persecutions and corruptions may come to be utterly dissolved and extinct o . q. what is a last difference betweene them ? a. the ordinary ministery appointed by christ is for the instituted and particular churches , but not for the church catholike as such , because that church hath no pastor nor bishop but christ . q. how may this appeare that ministers are not ministers of the universall church , but only of some particular congregation ? a. the church to whom the ministery belong is to chuse her owne ministers p but the unversall church never comes together to make any such choice : q. how else may this appeare ? a. there is no part of the church to which the ministery belongs , but it stands in need of ministers q . but a good part of the catholike church is glorious in heaven with christ , and therefore hath no such need q. what may be a third ground hereof ? a. the flock of god over which the holy ghost : doth make men overseers , is such as may be attended and watched over ; even the whole flocke and ministers thereof r : q. and why may not the same be said of the catholike church ? a. because that church is so large that it is not possible for any man to attend it or watch over it . q. is there any evill in it for one man to be a bishop or minister to all christians , where ever they be disposed of , and not onely to one congregation ? a. besides that such a man must needs neglect the greatest part of his charge , it is a great part of the usurpation of the bishop of rome , for which he is truely called antichrist , that he will take upon him to be universall bishop s over all the christians in the world q who is the head of the catholike church ? a. onely iesus christ t , as giving influence of life , sense and motion to the same , as the head doth unto the body : q who are the members of that church ? a. only they and all they that are effectually called to be true beleevers in christ : rev. . . iohn . . q. what are the parts of the catholike church ? a. according to the degrees of communion which they have with christ , so that church may be distinguished into that which is militant and that which is triumphant . q. vvhat is the church militant ? a. it is that part of the catholike church which is warring and fighting here on earth against spirituall enemies , the divell , the world and the flesh . eph. . . phil. . . & cor. . . tim. . . q. and what is the church triumphant ? a. it is that part of the catholike church which are now in heaven , gloriously triumphing over all those enemies which in this world they did conflict and combate withall . eph. . . heb. . . eph. . . chap. . of the instituted church , or perticular churches . q. what is the matter of particular or visible churches ? a. by the appointment of christ all churches ought to consist onely of true beleevers a and all that are true beleevers ought to joyn themselves unto some church b . q. if the matter of particular churches for the quality of it ought to be true beleevers in christ , what ought to be the quantity thereof ? q no more in number in the dayes of the new testament , but onely so many as may ordinarily meet together in one congregation , acts . . & . . & . . & . . & . . cor. . . and . , . and . . q. is any thing else needfull to the being of a visible church but onely the matter above mentioned ? a. timber and stones are not an house untill they be compacted and joyned together ; and as the humane soule and body are not man , unlesse they be united ; so beleevers are not a visible church , without some visible bond and union . q. and what is that bond that doth unite them ? a. an holy agreement and covenant c , with god and one another , to walke together in such duties of worship to god and edification of one another as the gospell of christ requireth of all churches and the members thereof : q. how many kinds of churches are there ? a. the visible church ( if we speake of that which is truely so called ) is one and the same in essence , from the beginning of the world to the end thereof ; namely a company of people united together in the profession of the true religion . q. but may not the true church be some way distinguished ? a yes ; for there is the church of the old testament , and the churches of the new : there are pure churches and churches that are corrupt ; and besides these that are true , there are also some that are false churches . q. what is the church of the old testament ? a a company of people united together in the profession of such a religion , or faith , whereby men beleeved on christ then to come . q. what is a church of the new testement ? a. a company of people united together in the profession of such a religion or faith whereby men beleeve on christ already come . q what are pure churches and churches that are corrupt ? a. a pure church is such a church whose matter forme , doctrine , worship , and ministery is accordding to the appointment of christ in the word . q. and what is a corrupt church ? a. such an one as in the things last mentioned or in some of them doth swerve from the appointment of christ , yet still holding the foundation of salvation . q. how if their swerving be such as overthroweth the foundation ? a. then they cease to be a true church , and become either no church , or at the best a false church . q. what is a false church ? a. one that is so exceedingly corrupt in regard of their constitution , doctrine , worship , ministery , that if men beleeve and walke according thereunto , they cannot be saved . q. and may not thus much befall a true church ? a. no ; a true church is either pure in these things , or if corrupt , yet not so corrupt as to overthrow salvation . chap. . of the power or liberty of churches , and of church officers . q. what is the power or liberty of particular churches ? a. it is not civill or worldly , for christs kingdome is not of this world a ; neither is it independent and supreame , for that belongs only to christ b ; but their power is spirituall and ministeriall . q. and wherein have they such power ? a. they have such power from christ to exercise all the ordinances of true religion , and to assemble together for the exercise thereof ; and in particular to choose officers to themselves , and to practice discipline or censures . q. whether have churches absolute power from christ to assemble together for the exercise of true religion , or onely so far forth as the princes of the earth shall give them leave ? a. princes ought not to hinder these things , but to be nursing fathers to the church c ; and it is a great blessing of god when they are such d . q. but if princes be not such , what ought the church to do in such case ? a. they must not neglect to observe the commandements of god , for lack of the commandement of man e , because jesus christ who giveth them commandement for these things , is the king of kings , and the prince of the kings of the earth f . q. to whom belongeth the power of choosing officers to the church ? a. the church is to choose her own officers , acts . . & . , . & . . q. how may that be further cleared ? a. either the church must choose her own officers , or else men may intrude themselves ; or officers must be called immediately of god , or be appointed by some other men : none of which may be affirmed . q. why may not men intrude themselves ? a. no man must take this honour to himself to be an officer in the church , but he that is called of god , as was aaron , heb. . . q. and why may not a man be called of god immediately ? a. such kind of callings are not to be expected in these daies , as being particular to apostles and other extraordinary officers , gal. . . q. but why may no other men appoint officers to the church ? a. other men that are not of the church have no such authority given them as to appoint offices to the church . q. if men must not be officers without a calling , and immediate callings be ceased , and other men may not appoint church officers , it remaineth then that the church is to choose her own officers : but unto what functions must the church choose officers ? a. onely to such functions as are appointed by christ in his word g and are of ordinary and perpetuall use in the church ; for otherwise they cannot expect that god will be with them in the choise , or blesse the officers unto them . q. vvhat are the officers appointed by christ for ordinary and perpetuall use in the church ? a. they are bishops and deacons h , which bishops are also called elders i more particularly , they are pastors , teachers k , ruling elders l , deacons m , and widdows n . q. what are pastors ? a. they are elders of the chuch , who are to quicken the hearts of the people unto all faith and obedience , and to reprove and comfort where there is need , by attending upon exhortation o , with a word of wisdom . q. what are teachers ? a. they are elders of the church who are to instruct the people in the good knowledge of the lord , and to refute errour p by attending upon teaching sound doctrine with a word of knowledge q . q. what are ruling elders ? a. they are elders of the church , who though they doe not labour in the word and doctrine r , yet they are to guide the church in comelinesse and order , and peaceably attending upon ruling with diligence s . q. vvhat are deacons ? a. they are officers of the church , who are to retaine , preserve , and distribute t the outward treasures of the church , for the reliefe of the poore , and other outward affaires of the church , in simplicity and faithfulnesse u . q. vvhat are widows and their works ? a. they are godly and ancient women , left desolate and destitute of outward succour , who are to attend the sick , and such like offices as are more suitable to be performed by women then by men , tim. . , . rom. . . q. what persons must the church choose for these offices ? a. such members of the church w , as by sufficient experience , time , and triall x , are known to be fitted with gifts y and graces from god for the places that the church would put them in . q. how must officers be put into their places ? a. all of them by solemn prayer unto god , and with imposition of hands upon elders and deacons , and in the ordaining of elders with fasting also . acts . . tim. . . & . . heb. . . acts . . chap. . of church discipline or censures . q. what is church discipline ? a. a personall application of the will of god by censures , for the preventing and removing of scandals . q. what are the parts of it ? a. binding and loosing a , which may be also called retaining and remitting of sinnes b ; and the former is either admonition c or excommunication d . q. what persons are subject to church-censures ? a. all and onely they that are member of the church , mat. . . cor. . . psa. . . q. in what way , and by what steps and degrees must an offending brother be dealt withall ? a. if the matter be private , i must first reprove him privately ; if this doe not win him , i must then take one or two more , matth. . . . q. how if this also prevaile not ? a. then the matter must be told unto the church , and the church must publiquely admonish him ; and if he do not heare the church , he is to be excommunicated , mat. . . q. in what manner must admonition or reproof , whether private or publique , be administred ? a. sometimes with meeknesse e , and sometimes with severity and sharpnesse f , according to the condition of the person sinning , the sinne committed , and the manner of doing g . q. how else ? a. alwaies with due solemnity , as an ordinance of god h , in the name of christ , and so that the winning i of the party must be the thing that must be aymed at . q. vvhat is excommunication ? a. a putting away , or cutting off from the communion and fellowship of the church , cor. . , . gal. . . mat. . . q. for what sinnes must men be excommunicated ? a. for hainous and flagitious k offences being publiquely known , and for other offences persisted in with obstinacy after due admonition l . cor. . , , . q. for what end should men be excommunicated ? a. for the healing of the offendor m , and for the preserving others from sinne n , and for the glory of the name of god which is blasphemed because of the sinne of church-members o q. how should a man behave himselfe towards them that are excommunicated ? a. he must avoyd all church-communion with them p , and all voluntary civill fellowship q , that may argue approbation or familiarity : but not such duties as men are bound unto in naturall or civill respects r . q. when must a man under censure be loosed and forgiven ? a. when he gives such signes of repentance as may satisfie rationall charity that the sinne is truly subdued and mortified , luke . , . cor. . . cor. . , , . chap. . of the life that beievers ought to live in the world , and of the law of god . q. what ought to be the life of them that are in christ ? a. a course of holy obedience , and service to god all the daies of their life , luke . , . pet. . , , , . tit. . . eph. . . q. vvhat is the generall rule of obedience ? a. not the commandements of men a , nor that which is good in our own eyes b , but that will of god which is therefore revealed unto us that we might do it c q. vvhether may not unbelievers perform duties of obedience ? a. they may performe many things which are good for the matter of them d , but not so as to please god in any thing they doe e . q. if they cannot please god in any thing they doe , had they not best then to neglect goods duties altogether ? a. not so : for they are nowhere exempted from the commandement . q. are believers able to performe obedience to god ? a. they are able by the power of christ that strengthens them , to doe the will of god in some measure of truth , as being now alive from the dead , and created in christ jesus to good works , phil. . eph. . . rom. . . q. but can they doe this in such perfection as the law of god requireth ? a. no , in no wise f , and the reason is because they know but in part g , and have flesh dwelling in them , and lusting against the spirit h . q. should they not then omit good duties altogether , seeing they cannot perform them in that perfection which the law requireth ? a. not so , but doe them in uprightnesse of heart , as god shall inable them i , because god of his mercy through christ hath promised to pardon their infirmities and sinnes , and to accept their sincere , though weake endeavours k . q. vvhat is the speciall rule according to which the life of a christian ought to be framed ? a. the life of a christian ought to be framed according to the morrall law of god , rom. . , . eph , iam . q. how may that be further cleared ? a. because christians are not set at liberty to sinne l , and no man knoweth what is sinne but by the law m . q. how else ? a. because in the new covenant god doth not promise to take away the law , but to write it in our hearts n . q. vvhat rules are to be observed for our better understanding the commandements of the law ? a. every commandement of the law is spirituall . reaching not onely to the outward man , but also to the heart , soule , and conscience , rom. . . mat. . , . q. what is another rule ? a. under the negative part the affirmative is comprehended , and under the affirmative the negative , mark . . psal. . . q. what may be a third rule for the same purpose ? a. under one vice forbidden , all of the same kind are forbidden also ; with all the causes , occasions , and signes thereof . and under one duty are commanded all of the same kind , with all the means and helps thereof . q. vvhat may be a fourth rule ? a. god requireth not only that we keep the law our selves , but that as much as is in us we cause others to keep it also . q. how many are the commandements of the law ? a. in respect of the generall heads they are ten o ; but all may be referred to two kinds : duties to god in the foure first commandements , and duties to our neighbour in the six latter . q. vvhat is the main scope of the first commandement , thou shalt have no other gods before me ? a. here is required all that naturall worship of god , whether the same be inward or outward , which is such as if there were no law prescribed , yet if we well know his nature , we would undoubtedly perform it to him . q. name some principall duties that are here required , with the contrary vices forbidden ? a. here is required faith in god p , love to his majesty q , and hope in him r , hearing his voice s , calling upon him by prayer t , and such like . q. and what are the evils forbidden in this first commandement ? a. here is forbidden atheisme u , ignorance of god w , unbeliefe x , dispaire y , pride z , hatered a , and contempt of god b , and all inordinate setting of our hearts upon any creature c , q what is the maine scope of the second commandement ? a. the second commandement enjoyneth all that worship of god which is by divine institution and ordinance mat. . . deut. . . q what are some of the particulars ? a. the publike and solemne preaching and hearing of his word d , and prayer e , celebration of sacraments f church , fellowship g , election and ordaining of ministers and their whole ministration h , with the due observation of church discipline i , q. what is the evill here forbidden ? a. all neglect of the instituted worship of god k , and all worshipping of him after the images , imaginations or inventions of men l q. what is the sum of the third commandement ? a. the things here required are the due manner of observing and using all things that pertaine to the naturall or instituted worship of god , and all that name of god whereby he makes himselfe knowne unto his people ? q. shew it by some instances ? a. here is required preparations to gods service m , reverence n , devotion o , sincerity p , fruitfulnesse under ordinances q , comlinesse r , or der s , and such like . q. what is the evill forbidden in the third commandement ? a. all rash vaine and light using of the titles t , word u , and ordinances of the lord w , as sleeping at sermons x or at prayer , and wandering thoughts at the same y , all confusions in church meeting z , and all using of any thing that is called gods name , otherwise then it ought to be used a q. what is the summe of the fourth commandement ? a. the consecrating and observing of that seventh part of time in gods solemne worship which he hath instituted and ordayned , which is the holy keeping of the sabbath isay . . q. what is the maine sinne here forbidden ? a. all holy dayes of mens devising without warrant of his word b , and all profaining of the lords holy time or any part of it c , by needlesse words , works , or thoughts . q vvhat is required in the fifth commandement ? a. to maintaine and yeeld unto men that honour that is due unto them in respect of their places and degrees , whether they be naturall parents d , husbands e , masters f , magistrates g , ministers h , aged persons i , or any other superiours , or qualls , and inferior k q. vvhat is the contrary evill here forbidden ? a. all such carriage as tends to the dishonour of our neighbours . q. vvhat is required in the sixth commandement ? a. due care of the life and person of our neighbour the contrary whereof is murder l ; fighting and quarrelling m , rash anger n , malice , hatred o , and envy p , and such like . q. vvhat is the summe of the seventh commandement ? a. due care of chastity and purity from all the lusts of uncleannesse . q. instance in some of the sinnes here forbidden ? a. here is forbidden all unchast thoughts and lust of the heart q , filthy dreames r , lookes s , speeches t , and apparrell u , gestures of dalliance w , actions of sodomie x , bestiality y , selfe polution z , adultery a , fornication b , and wantonnesse c , q. vvhat is the summe of the eight commandement ? a. due care of our neighbours outward estate whether it be lands , houses , cattell , corne , or ought else . q. name some of the sins forbidden in this commandement ? a. here is forbidden all neglect or hindrance of our neighbours outward estate , whether it be by idlenesse d , covetousnesse e , non payment of debts f , oppression g , by excessive prices or wages , robbery h , theevery i , or deceit k , q vvhat is the summe of the ninth commandement ? a. truth in speeches , promises and our dealings amongst men ; and the contrary forbidden is all lying and false speaking , eph. . . col. . , psal. , . micah . . psa. . . q what is the summe of the tenth commandement ? a. contentment with out owne outward estate l , and not to covet that which is our neighbours m , but hartily to desire and rejoyce in his good , as well as in our own n , chap . of the death and resurrection of the body , and the last judgement . q what is to be believed concerning death ? a. it is now appointed of god , that adam and all his children must die a , except enoch b and elias c , and such as shall be found alive at the comming of christ to judgement d . q why hath god so appointed ? a. because of sinne e , for if sinne had not entered into the world , there had never been death . q. but why should believers die , seeing christ hath suffered death for them , and so hath taken away all punishment of sinne ? a. they die not now in way of punishment for their sinne properly , but for other ends and repects . q. for what ends doe they die ? a. that they may be freed from all the evils of this life f , and be brought to rest and glory with christ g . q. what is the state of the godly immediately upon their death ? a. their bodies doe sleep in the grave , as in the bed of spices h , and their soules which are immortall are made glorious in the presence of god in heaven i . q and what is the state of the wicked upon their death ? a. their bodies lie rotting in the grave , through the heavy curse of god k ; and their soules are tormented in hell , in unspeakable woe and misery l . q. shall the bodies of men lie for ever in the grave , and never be united to their soules again ? a. not so , for there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust m , and all that are in the graves shall come forth n . q. in what manner shall the bodies of the saints arise ? a. for substance the same bodies that they were at death o ; but for quality greatly changed p , insomuch that they shall be raised incorruptible , glorious , powerfull , and spirituall q . q. vvhat great matter is it for godly men to rise again , seeing wicked men shall rise also ? a. they shall not rise by vertue of any union with christ as their head , as the godly shall r ; but onely by the power of christ , as their judge s . q. vvherein else doth the resurrection of the godly and wicked differ ? a. the wicked shall not rise in such a glorious and excellent manner , nor unto the same end with the godly , but to the resurrection of damnation , iohn . . q. what followeth after the resurrection ? a. the eternall judgement , heb. . . & . . q. when will the day of judgement be ? a. it is certainly appointed and decreed of god when it shall be t ; but it is not known to us that we might alwaies live in watchfulnesse u q. who must be judge at that day ? a. jesus christ is appointed of god to be the judge of quick and dead . acts . . & . . iohn . , . tim. . . cor. . . q. who must be judged ? a. all the world , both living and dead ; and this of all things done in this life , whether they be good or evil . acts , . cor. . . tim. . . pet. . . q. in what manner will be come ? a. he will come suddenly w , visibly x , and in wonderfull majesty and glory y , in flaming fire z , with the voyce of the archangell a , and thousand thousands of angels b . q. what sentence will he give ? a. to them upon his right hand he will say , come ye blessed of my father , inherit the kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the would . matth. . . q. and what will be his sentence upon the wicked at his left hand ? a. to them upon his left hand he will say , goe ye cursed into everlasting fire , prepared for the divel and his angels , matth. . . q. what shall follow the pronouncing of the sentence ? a. the sentence pronounced shall presently be put in execution , so that every man shall receive according to his works . matth. . . cor. . . mat. . . q. what shall the wicked receive ? a. they shall be punished with everlasting perdition from the presence of the lord , and from the glory of his power c , with the divell and his angels d , in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone , which is the second death e , q. and what shall the godly receive ? a. they shall have redemption and deliverance from all kind of evil f . q. and what good shall they enjoy ? a. wonderfull g , unspeakable and unconceivable h , and everlasting i happinesse and glory in the highest heavens k , in the presence of god l , in whose presence is fulnesse of joy , and at whose right hand are pleasures for evermore m . the contents of the severall chapters . chap. page . . of catechizing , as an introduction to that which followeth . of the holy scriptures . of god . of gods decree . of creation . of gods providence . of angels . of the estate of man in innocency by creation . of the fall of our first parents . of sinne , the definition of it , and the distribution into originall and actuall . of the punishment of sinne . of mans deliverance . of the person of christ , his godhead and his manhood . of the office of christ , as mediator between god and man . of the covenant between god and man , the covenant of works , and the covenant of grace , and the difference between them . of the propheticall , priestly , and kingly office of christ : and specially of the propheticall . of the priesthood of christ . of the kingly office of christ . of christs humiliation . of the exaliation of christ , and of his resurrection from the dead . of christs ascension into heaven . of christs sitting at the right hand of god , and his return to the last judgement . of faith and union with christ . of iustification , and of adoption . sanctification , and the difference between that and justification , and of some other benefits of christ unto believers . of the necessity of faith , its perfection at the first , and the meanes whereby it may be increased . of hearing the word , of baptisme , and the lords supper . of prayer , and some other means of increasing faith . of the church catholike or mysticall , and the difference between it , and particular instituted churches . of the instituted church , or particular churches . of the power or liberty of churches , and of church officers of church-discipline or censures . of the life that believers in christ ought to live in the world , and of the law of god . of death , the resurrection of the body , and the last judgement . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a heb. . . b heb. . . c heb. . . d ps. . . e heb. . , . cor. . , . f tim. . . g heb. . , . & . , . cor. . , . h eccles. . . deut. . . matth. . , , , . tim. . . mat. . . i psa. . . k heb. . , . l prov. . . m pet. . . & . . n tim. . . o eccles. . . heb. . . deut. . . matth. . . & , . &c. p heb. . . cor. . . mar. . . cor. . . q luke . . act. . . pet. . . r prov. . . deut. , . psa. . , . & . . mat. . , . luke . . eph. . . s heb. . , cor. . , . u prov. . & . , . & , . x prov. . . & . . & . . iob . . act. . . a heb. . . b num. . , . c iob . , . gen. . . d gen. . . exod. . . e gen. . . exod. . . f is. . . g deut. . . psa. . h isa. . . pet. . . i cor. . . k tim. . . rom. . . l act. . . & . . m luke . . pet. . . n tit. . . tim. . . tim. . . o tim. . . p pet. . . q heb. . . cor. . . cor. . , . r psal. . , &c. & , . s iohn . . t tim. . . u tim. . . w gal. . , . revel. . . x deut. . , . iosh. . . y tim . . tim. . . z deut. . . a ps. . . & prov. . . b acts . . ioh. . c psa. . . d tim. . a iohn . . col. . , . b exod. . . isa. . . heb. . . iohn . . c rom. . . psal. . . iob . , , &c. a ioh. . . & . , , . b ioh. . . ioh. . . phil. . . c ioh. . . & . . is. . . d ps. . . ioh. . . e ioh. . . heb. . . f ioh. . . g matth. . . h gal. . . rom. . . i col. . isa. . . ioh. . rom. . . prov. . . &c. ioh. . . col. . . k acts . . . & . . with is. . . cor. . . with cor. . . iob. . . cor. . . l deut. . . m exod. . . n exod. . , . o psal. . . & . . iob. . . &c. & . . . &c. p iob. , . rom. . . & . . q gen. . . & . . matth. . . psal. . . r matth. . . psal. . . s psal. . . rom. , . tit. . . t psal. . last . zeph. . . rom. . . iob. . . & . . & . . u psal. . . iam. . . w kings . . isa. . . ier. . . psal. . , &c. x ps. . . & , . & . , . a exod. . . prov. . . b prov. . . ps. . . c act. . . & . . d matth. . . . e pet . . rev. . . f ephes. . . tim. . . thes. . g iud. . rom. . . h iob. . . . i act. . . k eph. . . psal. . . & . . l rom. . , . m acts . . eph. . . thes. . . deut. . . o luk. . . mat. . . p rom. . , &c. eph. . , , . math. . , , luk. . q eph. . . . rom. . . r rom. . . ier. . . s eph. . . rom. . . tim. . . t eph. . . ier. . . u tim. . . act. . . w eph. . . rom. . . x thes. . . rom. . . y ephes. . , . ioh. . . z ephes. . . rom. . . a rom. . , , , . b iude. . c mat. . . rev. . . & . . d iude. . rom. . , . e rom. . , . f . , . a ioh. . . . col. . . b iob . and . . c isa. . . iob. . . d gen. . . psal. . . . and . . heb. . . e psal. . f gen. . exod . a act. . . . tim. . . ps. . . b psal. . . & . . c neh. . . d ps. . . e psal. . , . and . . & . . luk. . . f prov. . . . ioh. . . psal. . . eph. . . ioh. . . g dan. . , , psa. . . iob. . , , , . ps. . . & . , . mat. . . prov. . . . king. . . h amos . . isa. . . lam. . , . i prov. . , . exod. . . king . . k ezek. . . deut. . . isa. , . . gen. . . . sam. . . l deut. . , , chron. . act. . . m . king. . , . sam. . . . n iam. . . o . ioh. . . p isa. . , . . q eccle. . , r gen. . . rom. . . s eccles. . . t hos. . . u psal. . . and . . w king. . . hos. . , . x deut. . . & . , . king . , isay. . . y cor. . , . iudg. . , . chron. . . sam. , . amos . . ier. . , z ps. . , . eccles. . . hos. . . ps. . , , . a iosh. . , . & . . & king. . , . dan. . . king. . . b ps. . . heb. . . luk. . . c mat. . . d luk. . . e ps. . . pet. . . f sam. . . mat. . . g isa. . . ezek. . . dan. . . h gen. . . luk. . . i isa. . , . ps. . . k heb. . . a gen. . . b rom. . , . ier. . . c gen. . , , . d gen. . . rom. . . e gen. . . a tim . b gen . . c rom. . , . & . . cor. . . d tim . . rom. . . , e rom . : f gen. . . and . . a ioh. . . b rom. . . c rom. . . eph . and , . d gen. . . and . . rom. . . e rom. . , . and . . and . . f thes. . . ier. . . tit. . . rom. . . gal. . . rom. . . g eph. . , . mat. . , &c. iam. . . h iam. . . i gen. . . k math. . , , . l col. ▪ . isa. . . m rom . . &c. iam. . . ioh. . . eccles. . . n isa. . . hos. . , . o rom. . , . p gen. . . q gen. . . ier. . . r math. . , , . and . , . pro. . . and . . a gen. . . rom. . . and . . b col. . . c deut. . . and . . d deut. . . e gen. . , . f rom. . , . g deut. , , , , . gen . . h deut. . , . pro. . . i deut. , . k deut. . , , , , , . l mal . . . psal. . . m rom. . . eph. . . isa. . n eph. . . cor . . tim. . . o math. . , , . ioh. . . rom. . , , , . p psal. . . rom. . , , , q exod. . . r isa. . , . s thes. . . t math. . . thes. . . u luk. . . rev. . . and . . w luk. . . psal. . . x luk. . , . y math. . . luk. . . z pet. . . a isa. . . b rev. . . c math. . . a rom. . . b isa. . . rom. . . c gen. . . d rom. . . e psal. . . c iob . . & . . rom. . . a isa. . . pro. . . iohn . . & . . col. . . rev. . . b rev. . . iohn . . c iohn . . & . , . rev. . . mat. . . d iohn . . mat. . . eph. . . e iohn . . . col. . . f mat. . . g luke . . & . . mat. . h heb. . . iohn . . i exod. . . k acts . . l acts . . m tim. . . mat. . . n iohn . . o heb. . . luke . . p heb. . . q heb. . . r heb. , . s gal. . . t mat. . . luke . , . heb. . . a pet. . . tim. . . b gen. . rev. . . heb. . a isai. . . b heb. . . & . . & . . c mal. . . d gal. . . & . . e gen. . . f ier. . . g ezek , , . h ier. , i rom. . . k rom. . l acts . m rom. . . n gal. . o rom. . p rom. . q cor. . , , . r rom. . . s ier. . . t gal. . . rom. . . u isa. . . ier. . . w ier. . . heb. , : a deut. . acts . , . b isai . c mal. . . d mat. . . e heb. . . f heh. . . g pet. . . h rev. . . & . i heb . . k iohn . col. . l eph. . ● , . luke . . cor. . . m isai . , & . , . mat. . . & . . n pet. . . & . . o mat. . , . p iohn . . gal. . , . iohn . . iohn . . a heb. . , . b heb. . . c heb. . . d heb. . , , . e heb. . . f heb. . . g eph. . heb. . . h isai . , . i heb. . . k heb. . . . l heb. . . m heb. . . & . , , n eph. . . w mat. . . x iohn . heb . y pet. . . rev . . z heb. . . a heb . b heb. . . & . . c rom. . iohn . . d iohn . , . e iohn . . luke . . f pet. . . exod. . . rev. . g rom. . , . zecb , . h heb. . . iohn . . a psal. . . ier. . . zech. . . luke . , . iohn . . b rev. . : heb. . . c heb. . can. . . revel. . . d psal. . . & psal. . . e isa. . . f acts . . g cor. , . h heb. . . phil. , . i psal. . . zech. . . k iohn . , , . eph. . . l psal. . , , . isai . , . m cor. . . eph. . . mat. . . n iam. . . isai . . o rom. . . kings . . iob . . & . . p psa. . , , . heb. . cos. . , . q psa. . . mat. . . luke . r rom. . . iohn . luke . . s rev. . . & . . t psa. . , . rev. . . u psa. . . & . , , , . w psa. . . dan. . . luke . . a phil. . iohn . . b heb. . , . iohn . phil. . . c gal. . d phil. . isai . , . psal. . . e mat. . . f mat. . . luk. . . g luk. . . h mat. . . luke . . i acts . . iohn . . k iohn . . . . luk. . . . l phil. : . m gal : . . n mat. . . o mat : . . p math. . . q acts . . r rom. . . tim. . . . iob. . . . s rom. . . . a heb. . . b phil. . . c math . . luke . . d pet. . . rom : . . e mat : . . iohn . . . f luke . . g math : . , . mark : . . . luk. . , , . h math. . . i math. . . . luk. . . . k act. . . l act. . . . and . . and . . . and . . . . and . . cor. . , , , . m mark . . n math : . . . o luk. . . p ioh. c . . q ioh. . r ioh. . . . s mat. . . t acts . . u cor. . . w act. . . eph. . . . x ioh. . . and . . y rom. . . z luk. . . psa. . . and . . isa. . . . . a rom. . . cor. . b rom. . . . phil. . , . . c rom. . . cor. . . pet. . . d pet. . . rom. . . eph. . . . col. . . and . e cor. . , , . rom. . . cor. . a ioh. . . b mat. . . and . . and rev. . . c ioh. . mat. . . act. . . d mark . . . act. . . . . e eph. . . f luk . . psal. . . g heb. . . and . . and . . h luk. . . i psa. . . k eph. . . . l iohn . , . & . . acts . . m iohn . . . a pet. . . b psa. . c ioh. . . a ier. . . ioh. . , . and . . isa. . . b iohn . . c act. . . d eph : : : e acts , . phil. . . cor. , . rom. . . f rom. . , . act. . . g gal. . . rom. . . h rom. . . and , , . i rom. . : exod. . , . k rom. . . l ioh. . . act. , . . tim. . . m ioh. . . n ioh. . . o luk. . , . and , , , . p mat : . . ioh : . . isa. . . . ● cor : . . q iohn . , ier. . . iohn . . rom. . . r zac. . . s 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& . . rev. . . and . : f mat. . , . iude. . act. . , . rev. . , , . g isa. . . ioh. . . h eph. . . pet. . . i deut. . , , , . ezek . . ier. . , . k eph. . . and . . col. . . l mat. . . m mat. . . isa. . , . rev. . . n psal. . ioh. . . and ioh. . . o rev. . . rom. . . p act . . and . . and . , . q eph. . , . r acts . . peter . , . s thes. . . rev. . , . t eph. . . and . , . and . . col. . . a isay . . and . . ioel . . rev. . . & . . eph. . . phil. . . b mat. . . and . . cant. . , . isay . , . zech. . . acts . , , and , . . c deut. . , , , . ezek. . . ier. . , . zech. . . , . a iohn . . b matth. . . iam. . . c ezra . , , ▪ isai . . d ezra . . e mat. . . acts . . & . . & . . & . , . f rev. . . & . . g mat. . . h phil. . . tim. . , . i tim . . acts . , . pet. . , , . k eph. . . l tim. . . m tim. . . n tim. . , . o rom. . . cor. . p tit. . . q rom. . cor. . . r tim. . . s mat. . . & . . luke . . cor. . . rom. . . tim. . . t acts . . & . , . chron. . . & chron. . . neh. . . u rom. . . neh. . . w ezek. . . acts . . x tim. . . & . , y tim. . , &c. titus . , , &c. kings . . & . . a mat. . & . . b iohn . . c thess. . thess. . . d mat. . . cor. . . e gal. . . f cor . . cor. . . gal. . . g iude . . num. . , , . h mat. . , &c. i lev. . . gal. . . mat. . , . l mal. . . m cor. . . tim. . . n deut. . . tim. . . cor. . , . o sam. . . rom. . . p matth. . . q cor. . . thes. . . r r iohn . . a hos. . . col. . . b deut. . . c mat. . . & . , . ephes. . , . deut. . . micah . . d isai . . mat. . , , . & . , , . e heb. . . mat. . . iohn . . f exod. . . neb. . . isai . . g gor. . , . h gal. . . rom. . . , . i mat. . . col. . . k mal. . . cor. . . num. . . l rom. . , . m rom. . . & . iohn . . n ier. . ezek. . . o deut. . . & . . p chro. . . psal. . . . and . . . q deut. . mat. . . r lam. . , . ier. . . psal. . . s ier . . isay . . acts . . t psal. . . and . . and . . phil. . . u psal. . . titus . . w psa. . . ier. . . iohn . . x isay . . heb. . . ier. . , . y gen. . . mat. . , . . z acts . . dan. . . . and . . a rom. . . psal. . . b exod. . . psal. . . c ier. . . math. . . eph. . . phil. . . d deut. . . acts . . luke . , . e tim. . , . acts. . . and . . luke . . f mat. . , . and . . &c. , g acts . . and . . h acts . . and . , . &c. i mat. . &c. cor. . , . k mat. . deut. . . zech. . , , , . luke . , l exod. . . . num. . . kings , , , . and . . mat. . . col. . , , , . m eccl. . . psal. . . exod. . , , , n heb. . , . psal. . . o chro. . . isay . luke . . p rom. . . iohn . ▪ tim. . . q luke . . mat. . . r cor. . . cor. . . s cor. . , , , , . t deut. . . u psa. . . isay . , . w chron . x acts . . y mat. . . ezek. z cor. . . a mal. . , , , , . b king . , . exod. . . c isay . . exod. . . . and . . neh. . , , . ier. . . . d lev. . . eph. . , , . e eph. . , . f eph. . , , , . g rom. . , . tit. . h tim. . . thes. . , . i lev. . . iob. . , . k rom. . . pet. . . l exod. . . numb. . . , , . m tit. . . n mat. . . eph. . , . o tit. . . p prov. . . acts . . q mat. . . col. . . r deut. . . iude . s math. . . pet . . gen. . . t cor. . . eph. . . and . . u pro. . . tim. . , . eph. . . w pro. . . gen. . . x lev. . . rom. . , . y lev. . , . z gen. . . cor. . . a lev. . . b cor. . , . c gal. . . eph. . . d gen. . . thes. . , . e heb. . . eph. . . tim. . , . f psal. . . kings . . rom. . . g lev. . , . amos . . h lev. . . pro. . . ezek. . . & . i eph. . . zech. . , . k thes. . . lev. , , . l heb. phil. . . tim. . . m kings . , . rom. . n rom . . iob. . . a heb. . psal. . . b heb. . . c . kings . ▪ d cor. . , . e gen. . . & . . rom. . . cor. . , . f isai . . revel. . . g phil. . . isai . . iohn . . h isai . . rev. . . i eccl. . . phil. . . cor. . , . luke . . acts . . k gen. . . psal. . . l luke . . m acts . . n iohn . , . o cor. . . iob . , . p phil. . . q cor. . , , . r rom. . . cor. . . thes. . . s iohn . . t acts . . u mark , . w pet. . . thes. , , . x acts . . luke . . rev. . . y luke . . tit. . z thes. . . pet. . , . a thess. . . b thess. . . iude . mat. . . c thes. . . d mat. . . e rev. . . mark . , . f luke . . eph. . . rom. . . g psal. . . h cor. . . cor. . . i cor. . . mat. . . pet. . . k cor. . . iohn . , . heb. . . l thes . . m psal. . . an apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant, or, a discourse touching the covenant between god and men, and especially concerning church-covenant ... sent over in answer to master bernard, in the yeare ... mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing m ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : or :e , no ) an apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant, or, a discourse touching the covenant between god and men, and especially concerning church-covenant ... sent over in answer to master bernard, in the yeare ... mather, richard, - . peters, hugh, - . davenport, john, - . [ ], p. printed by t.p. and m.s. for benjamin allen, london : . written by richard mather and edited by hugh peters. cf. nuc pre- . the apologie and the answer were both published in mather's church-government and church-covenant discussed. . film lacks: an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england unto nine positions, sent over to them (by divers reverend and godly ministers in england) to declare their judgements therein, written in the yeer , and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points / by john davenport. london : printed by t.p. and m.s. for b. allen, (p. - ). this item is located at reel : and also at reel :e. , no. where it is filmed after mather's church-government and church-covenant discussed. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng congregational churches -- new england. covenant theology. a r (wing m ). civilwar no an apologie of the chvrches in new-england for chvrch-covenant. or, a discourse touching the covenant betvveen god and men, and especially c mather, richard d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - rina kor sampled and proofread - rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an apologie of the chvrches in new-england for chvrch-covenant . or , a discourse touching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company doe enter into when they become a church ; and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . sent over in answer to master bernard , in the yeare . and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in this point . london , printed by t. p. and m. s. for benjamin allen . . a discovrse tovching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company do enter into when they become a church , and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . . jer. . . come let us joyne our selves to the lord , in a perpetuall covenant that shall not be forgotten . although that which is foretold in these two chapters , and namely in the fourth and fifth verses of this chapter , was in part fulfilled when the people of god returned from captivitie in babylon at the end of seventie yeares : yet we must not limit the place to that time onely , but may extend it further to the dayes of the gospel , and the spirituall return , not of the jews onely , but of the gentiles also , when men shall be converted from pagan , antichristian , babylonish , or jewish bondage and captivitie , or from slavery to sinne , and self-righteousnesse , and shall be joyned to god in the fellowship of his church , in the dayes of the new testament . for as some passages in this scripture were never fully accomplished at the returne from the captivitie of the seventie yeares , and namely this , that the children of israel and iudah should returne both together : ( for the ten tribes returned not at all : ) so many things that literally concerned the jewes were types and figures , signifying the like things concerning the people of god in these latter dayes : in which respect sincere converts are called jewes , rom. . . and israelites , gal. . . ioh. . . and our sacraments are made 〈◊〉 of theirs , a con . , , . and rome is called babylon , rev. . , and papists are called gentiles ▪ rev. . . and therefore the captivitie of babylon might well be a type of the spirituall captivitie of gods people to antichristian bondage , and t●eir returne from babylon to sion , a type of the returne of christians from romish slavery to the true sion , the christian church . and this may be added further , that this place seemes not onely to be meant of the private or personall conversion of this or that particular christian , but also further , of the open and joynt calling of a company , because it is said , they shall come , the children of israel and the children of iudah together , and that their saying shall not be , let me joyne , &c. but in the plurall number , 〈◊〉 us joyne our selves unto the lord , so noting the joyning of a company togeth●r in holy covenant with god . concerning which covenant with god , it will not be amisse for the better understanding of that which followes ; first , briefly to shew how diversly covenant is taken in the scripture , which sometimes i●ports generally any firme appointment or promise of god , when man doth not promise unto god any thing backe againe : thus the preserving of noah in the arke , and of the wo●ld from being drowned any more by a floud ; the interchangeable succession of day and night ; the giving of the priesthood unto phin●as ; the setting forth of the shew-bread every sabbath before the lord , and the giving of the heave-offering unto the priests , are said to be done by a covenant , or an everlasting covenant of god , gen. . . & . . . . ier. . . num. . , 〈◊〉 . . . num. . . but sometimes covenant is taken more strictly and properly , for an agreement which god doth make with men , when he promiseth some blessing unto men , and bin●es them to performe some dutie backe againe to him . taken thus it hath two parts : first , a promise or stipulation of some blessing on gods part : secondly , restipulation or promise , or bind●●g o● man unto dutie back againe on his part : both these are in those words of the covenant , i will be to thee a god , thou shalt be to me a people : and so gen. . . & v. , ▪ , . the covenant taken thus is either the covenant of workes , or the covenant of grace : and againe the covenant may be considered , first as it is personall , private and particular , between god and one particular soule , making covenant with god , and god with him , either at his first conversion , or at other times ; of which we reade sam. . . & psal. . . & . , . & . . & psal. . , secondly , it is generall and publick of a company joyntly together , of which this text ier. . . seemes most properly to speake : as also that deut. . , , &c. and that exod. . , , and many others : a covenant taken thus generally when it respects spirituall blessings , and spirituall duties , in the communion of saints , is that which is called church-covenant , which church-covenant differs not in substance of the things promised from that which is between the lord and every particular soule , but onely in some other respects ; as first , the one is of one christian in particular , the other of a company joyntly together . secondly , if right order be observed , a man ought not to enter into church-covenant , till he be in covenant with god before , in respect of his personall estate . thirdly , the one is usually done in private , as in a mans closet between the lord and his soule , and the other in some publick assembly . fourthly , the one in these dayes is of such duties as the gospel requires of every christian as a christian , the other of such duties as the gospel requires of every church and the members thereof . now concerning church-covenant , two things are to be noted for the better understanding thereof : first , the description of it : secondly , the use of it , and the benefit and fruit thereof . for the former it may be thus described , viz. a solemne and publick promise before the lord , whereby a company of christians , called by the power and mercy of god to fellowship with christ , and by his providence to live together , and by his grace to cleave together in the unitie of faith , and brotherly love , and defirous to partake together in all the holy ordinances of god , doe in confidence of his gracious acceptance in christ , binde themselves to the lord , and one to another , to walke together by the assistance of his spirit , in all such wayes of holy worship in him and of edification one towards another , as the gospel of christ requireth of every christian church , and the members thereof . in this description , there are compr●●ed six things : first the generall name of the thing : [ a solemne and publick promise ] a promise it is , and therefore it is called , a joyning in covenant here : an entring into covenant , deut. . . solemne and publick , and therefore it is by the children of israel and the children of iudah together : and they say , let us joyne . secondly , the object [ the lord , and one another ] joyne our selves to the lord . it is not a promise onely to man , but to the lord himselfe , and likewise to one another ; for , come let us joyne , implyes mutuall consent together . thirdly , the agents or the qualification of the persons : [ christians ] not turkes , indians , &c. saints , psal. . . , . [ called to fellowship with christ ] so cor. . . else if they be not united to christ by faith , they are not fit materialls for such a building as a church of god , which is the house of the living god , ephes. . . cor. . . phil. . . rev. . . [ by his providence to live together ] else they cannot partake in the lords ordinances together as churches ought to doe , cor. . . act. . . the whole church comes together in one place [ cleaving together in faith and love ] so act. . . if they differ , namely , in opinion , or in their affection , and should joyne in this covenant , breaches , factions , rents , and schismes , would be like to be the issue of such joyning : things so unlike would not close nor long hold together , dan. . [ desirous to partake in all ordinances ] this should be the ground of their joyning in covenant together , psal. . . willing : and not pride , nor gaine , nor the like : fourthly , the act [ binde themselves ] that now they are bound by their owne word and promise , that they may say now , as psal. . . thy vowes are upon me , or as num. . . if he binde his soule with a vow . fiftly , the matter promised ; [ to walke together in all such wayes of worship and mutuall edification , as the gospel requireth of churches and church-members ] they binde not themselves to observe any devises of their owne , nor inventions of men , but such things as the word of god requireth ; neither is it perfect obedience to the law , for that were impossible to performe , and presumption to promise ; nor is it onely in generall the duties of the gospel , but specially such duties of worship to god , & edification of one another as concerne church-state , which now they enter into . sixtly , the manner of performing [ confidence of gods gracious acceptance and assistance through christ ] for in all our wayes god must be acknowledged , pro. . . and much more in such speciall matters of weight : if men in entring into this covenant looke for acceptance , through any worth of their owne , or promise dutie in their own strength , they shew themselves like to the pharisees , luk. . , . and turne the church-covenant into a covenant of workes : and as many as are of the workes of the law , are under the curse , gal. . . the use and benefit of this church-covenant , and the fruit thereof , may be seene in two particulars ; first , that this is that whereby a company of christians doe become a church : it is the constituting forme of a church . secondly , this is that by taking hold whereof a particular person becomes a member of a church , which was constituted afore . for the former of these ; every christian church must have in it both matter and forme , and as the matter by gods appointment are visible saints , or visible beleevers , ephes. . . cor. . . and in the new testament , onely so many as may meete together in one congregation : so the forme is a uniting , or combining , or knitting of those saints together into one visible body , by the band of this holy covenant . some union or band there must be amongst them , whereby they come to stand in a new relation to god , and one towards another , other then they were in before : or els they are not yet a church , though they be fit materialls for a church ; even as soule and body are not a man , unlesse they be united ; nor stones and timber an house , till they be compacted and conjoyned . now that a company becomes a church , by joyning in covenant , may be made good sundry wayes ; first , by plaine texts of scripture ; as from deut. . , , , , . yee stand this day all you before the lord your god , your captaines of your tribes , your elders , your officers , with all the men of israel ▪ ver. . that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the lord thy god , ver. . and he may establish thee for a people unto himselfe , ver. . so that here is plain●y shewed , that here was a company , ver. . and this company were to be established to be a people unto the lord , that is to say , a church , ver. . and this is done by the peoples entring into solemne covenant with god , ver. . and therefore a company of people doe become a church by entring into covenant with god . this covenant was not like our church-covenants , for it was of all the nation together ; whereas the church-covenant with us , is of some select persons , leaving out others . . this objection concerns the matter of a church , but the covenant is not the materiall cause of a church , but the formall cause thereof : and for this the text is plaine and expresse , that by entring into covenant with god , a people come to be the lords people , that is to say , his church . . if it was of all the people together , the reason was because that church was a nationall church : now if a nationall church becomes a church by entring into solemne covenant with god , then a congregationall church becomes a church by the same means ; for there is no difference between them in this point . . though it was of all the people , we may not say it proves that when we looke at the materiall cause of a church , there may be a promiscuous taking in of all commers without distinction or separation of the precious from the vile ; for , first , when god took in this nation to be his people , he separated them from all the nations of the earth besides : so that there was a distinction and separation of some from others . secondly , this generation was generally a generation of beleevers ; for it was they that were to enter into the land within a while after ; for they were fortie yeares in the wildernesse , & this covenant , was made in the last moneth save one of the last of those fortie yeares , deut. . . and their carkasses fell not in the wildernesse through unbeliefe , as their fathers did , num. . heb. . but entred by faith , and when they were entred , subdued kingdomes by their faith , heb. . . and served the lord all the dayes of ioshua , and of the elders that outlived ioshua , josh. . . as for that which is said of them , ver. , . of this chap. that the lord had not given them eyes to see , &c. that proves not that they were wholly hardned in a carnall estate , but onely that they were dull and slow of heart to consider of sundry dispensations of god towards them ; for as much is said of the disciples of christ , mar. . , . when doubtlesse they were not meere carnall or naturall persons . this people deut. . could not become the lords people by entring into sol●mne covenant with god , for they were the lords church and people already before this . . if they were , yet that was by entring into solemne covenant with god on mount sinai , when the lord had brought them up out of the land of aegypt ; for then they entred into solemne covenant with god , and god with them , and so they became the lords peculiar people , exod. , , , . &c. if they were his people before that , yet that also was by covenant made with them in the loynes of abraham , when god tooke him and his seede to be his church and people , yet separating ishmael from isaac and esau from iacob , that the inheritance of the covenant of god , and of being the church of god , might rest in the house of iacob . . yet it was not without great reason that the lord should now establish them by solemne covenant to be a people to himselfe , because the nation had been much degenerated from the spirit and wayes of abraham in aegypt , and had broken that covenant by their idolatries there , ez●k. . , . and the covenant made in sinai or horeb when they were come out of aegypt , they had also broken by their idolatries in the wildernesse , ez●k . , . for which causes , and the like , the lord consumed that generation , that they never entred into the land , iosh. . , . and therefore now when their posteritie and children were ready to enter in , the lord entred into covenant with them , and thereby established them to be his people , their fathers being cut off for breaking the covenant . but still it was by covenant that both fathers first , and children afterward became a church and people unto god ; and when this generation were entred into the land , their covenant made before between god and them , was confirmed by circumcision , iosh. . . they being not circumcised before . but this covenant was of the whole church with god , and therefore not like our chu●ch-covenants , whi●h are between the church and the members concerning watchfulnesse over one another , and the like . our church covenants are with the lord himselfe , as was shewed before in the description thereof . for watchfu●nesse and duties of edification one towards another , are but branches of the lords covenant , being duties commanded by the law : and so it was with that people of israel , who when they promised and covenanted to walke in all the wayes of god ; in all his statutes and commandements and judgements , they promised these du●ies of love and watch●ulnesse and e●ification one towards another , because these were duties commanded and required o● god , lev. . deut. ● the neglect whereof in the matter of achan was the sinne of al● the co●gregation , and brought judgement upon them all , iosh . , . yea by this covenant they were bound to duties towards them that were not then present , but children afterward to beborne , and prosely●es , that afterward should be added to them , ver. , . like as our church-covenants are with them that now are , and that hereafter shall become members of the same church . when iehojada made a covenant between the king and the people , king. . . that covenant was but a branch of the lords covenant with them all , both king and people : for the king promised but to rule the people righteously , according to the will of god : and the people to be subject to the king so ruling . now these duties of the king to them , and of them to the king , were such as god required in his covenant , both of him and them : and so it is in church-covenant , the duties of the church to the members , and the members to the church , and one another , are no other but such as the gospel and the covenant of grace requireth both of the church and the members of it in their severall places . but this place of deut. . is not sufficient to prove a church-covenant in these dayes : because it is in the scriptures of the old testament , for whatsoever must be used in the dayes of the new t●stament , must be proved from the scriptures of the new testament , or else it is to be layd aside . . the church-covenant may be proved from the new testament also , as will afterwards appeare . . but suppose there were not pregnant places for it in the new testament , yet it is not enough to prove the same unlawfull : for whatsoever ordinance of the old testament is not repealed in the new testament , as peculiar to the jewish paedagogie , but was of morall and perpetuall equitie , the same bindes us in these dayes , and is to be accounted the revealed will of god in all ages , though it be not particularly and expressely mentioned in the writings of the new testament , else how shall we prove it unlawfull for a man to marry his sister , or his aunt ? how shall we prove it warrantable and necessary for magistrates to punish sabbath-breaking , blasphemy , and idolatry ? how shall we prove it lawfull to apply the seale of gods covenant unto infants ? or to admit women to eate of the holy things ; for the scriptures of the new testament doe speake little in these cases ; onely the scriptures of the old testament doe give direction , and light about them , lev. . & . neh. . . &c. chron. . . & king. . gen. . . & exod. . . . and the new testament hath nothing to the contrary , and they are all according to morall equitie and reason , and therefore they are to be observed from the scriptures of the old testament , as the revealed will of god , though there were nothing expressely for them in the new . and the same we say of the particular in hand . for , that a company should be combined together into one body , in way of government and subjection , by way of mutuall free covenant ; as men doe when they enter into church estate , nothing is more naturall or agr●eable to morall equitie ; nay , it implyeth a contradiction in the very name of libertie or freedome , that free-men should take upon them authoritie or power over free men without their free consent , and voluntary and mutuall covenant or engagement . and therefore seeing this covenant is not repealed in the scriptures of the new testament , the scriptures of the old are sufficient warrant for it . another scripture to prove the same , is deut. . , , . with deut. . . this day the lord hath commanded thee to doe these statutes and iudgements , thou shalt therefore keepe and doe them , &c. thou hast avouched the lord this day to be thy god , and to walke in his wayes , and to keepe his statutes , &c. and the lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people ; take heed and hearken , o israel , this day thou art become the p●ople of the lord thy god . this scripture plainly shewes these things : . that here was the making of a covenant between god and man ; for that avouching of god to them , and them to god , was the making of covenant , ver. . . . this was not of one person , but of a company together , the whole people of israel , . . & . . here is the effect of this covenant , that thereby they become the lords people , ver. . so that when a company doe enter into holy covenant with god , they become thereby the lords people , that is to say , his church . so ezech. . . proves the same likewise : i ent●ed into covenant with thee , saith the lord , and thou becam●st mine . here also is the making of covenant between the lord and men ; and this covenant was not personall , but of a company ; for it was with hierusalem , ver. . which was a whole citie ; it was with them that were multiplied as the bud of the seild , ver. . and it was with them that did prosper into a kingdome , ver. . and therefore not meant onely of any one particular person : and by this covenant they became the lords ; that is , the lords church and people ; for it is expresly said , i entred into covenant with thee , and thou becamest mine . so that when a company enter into covenant with god , and god with them , they become thereby the lords church and people . likewise ezek. . . i will cause you to passe under the rod ; and i will bring you into the bond of the covenant . in which place , there is first mention of an holy covenant . secondly , this was not of one person , but of a company , the whole house of israel , ver. . . thirdly , and this covenant is called a bond , because it is by covenant that a people are bound , and tyed , and knit together , as one chu●ch , all of them unto the lord , and one unto another ; so that the covenant is the bond of union , by which a company are so combined and united , as that they become a church . it is also obs●rvable , how the lord before he would bring them into this bond of the covenant , he would cause them to passe under the rod ; by which phrase , as iunius upon the place well observes , is meant tryall and probation ; drawne from the manner of shepheards or owners of cattell , who went among their sheepe , or other cattell with a rod , and therewith pointed out such as were for the lords holy use , as lev. . . and so hereby is noted that god would not ●n the dayes of the gospel have men to be brought into his church hand over head , but he would first cause them to passe under the rod of due tryall and probation ; and then such as upon tryall were found to be holy for god , or meete matter for his church , should solemnly enter into covenant with god , and that covenant should be the bond that should combine them , and knit them together into one , that so they that were many particular persons , should all become one body , that is to say , a church . and so much of the first argument drawne from plaine texts of scripture . a second argument may be taken from the titles that are given to the church ; as first , that the church is said to be married or espoused unto christ , ier. . . & . . cor. . . from whence the argument may be formed thus : if every church becomes a church by being married or espoused unto christ , then a company becomes a church by way of covenant : but the former is true , therefore the latter 〈◊〉 true also . the assumption , that a church becomes a church by being married unto christ , is plai●e from the former scriptures , where the ●hurc● of israel , and the church of corinth , in regard of their e●tring into church estate , are said to be espoused and married unto christ , as a loving and chast virgine to one husband . which spirituall marriage between christ and his church , is also taught in the type of the marriage between king salomon and pharoahs daughter , psal. . the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason ; for there is no marriage but by way of covenant ; no woman becomes a mans wife , but by way of bestowing her selfe in covenant upon such a man : neither doth a man become an husband , but by the same means ; and therefore the scripture speaking of the violation of marriage , calls it a violation of covenant , prov. . . christ hath but one wife or spouse , cant. . the catholique church indeed is but one ; viz ▪ the whole company of gods elect in heaven , in earth , dead , now living , and not yet borne : but as there is the church-catholique , which is but one ; so there are particular and visible churches , which are in number many ; and therefore the scripture speakes of churches , cor. . . . gal. . . of the churches of the gentiles , rom. . . of seven churches , rev. . . of all churches , cor. . & . . rev. . . but if every particular church be the wife of christ , how many hundred wives should he have ? . if the church of israel , ier. . . the church of corinth , cor. . . the jewish church , rev. . . be the spouse and wife of christ , there is no reason but others should be the same also , especially seeing there is no particular church , but in respect of their church estate , they may decline and goe a whoring from christ , and that shews that they were first espoused to him ; for no woman can be said to got a whoring from a man , if shee were never married , nor espoused to him at all . . this that seemes an absurditie , and were a sinfull practise among men , in respect of christ , is a certaine truth , and no dishonour unto him at all , to have more spouses then one upon earth , many spirituall spouses . men cannot give themselves wholly and intirely to many as christ can . every faithfull soule is espoused and married unto christ ; and in that respect he hath not onely many hundred but many thousand , yea many millions of spirituall spouses . but this spirituall marriage is between christ and the church , but the church covenant is between the church and the members , and therefore this marriage doth not prove the church-covenant . . in some sort there may be said to be a marriage between the church and the members , viz. in respect of that deare love and affection , that ought to be between them ; and therefore it is said , as a young man marrieth a virgine , so shall the children of the church be married to the church , isa. . . . but properly the marriage is between christ & the church , and so is the covenant also , so farre as therein they give up themselv●s to christ as unto an head and lord ; as a woman in the covenant of m●rriage doth give up her selfe unto her husband ; and the performance of such duties as the church and the member owe one unto another , is a branch of that marriage-covenant , wherein they are tyed to christ ; for christ himselfe in his covenant requires , not onely that they should give up themselves to him , but also that they should performe these duties one unto another . and accordingly it is said of the churches in mac●donia , that they gave up themselves first to the lord , and then to us by the will of god , cor. . . true it is , they doe also binde th●mselves by covenant one unto another , but in that respect the covenant is p●operly a brotherly covenant ; like that sam. . . am●s . . . because there the engagement is to one another as brethren , fellow - members , and fellow-helpers , and not as to one head or lord , as it is in respect of christ , and therefore in that respect it is not so properly a marriage-covenant as it is in respect of christ : though duties to one another are promised in their covenant with one another , and also in their covenant with christ . in briefe thus : they promise unto christ duties to him , and duties to one another according to him : and so their covenant is a marriage-covenant with christ : they promise also to one another , duties to one another , and so it is a brotherly covenant . another title given to the church ( which also proves that a church is made by covenant ) is the title of a citie , or citie of god , psal. . & . . & . . ephes . . the argument lyeth thus . if a true church be a citie of god , then a church becomes a church by covenant : but every true church is a citie of god . ergo . the assumption is proved by the scriptures forealledged . the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason , for every citie is un●ted by some covenant among themselves , the citizens are received unto 〈◊〉 civitatis , or right of citie priviledges , by some covenant or oath ; and therefore it is so likewise in this citie of god the church ; and men become citizens of the church by solemne covenant . the third argument may be drawne from the meanes of reforming and restoring a church when it is corrupted , which is by entring into covenant a new with god , chron. . . & . . & neh. . . & . , ier. . , . the reason may be taken thus : if a church decayed is to be restored and refo●med by renuing covenant with god , then it was instituted and erected at the first by way of covenant : the reason of which consequence is , because abuses and corruptions are to be reformed by bringing things back to the first institution : thus christ re●ormes the abuses of marriage , by bringing them to the first institution of that ordinance ; from the beginning it was not so , mat. . . and thus paul reformeth the abuses of the lords supper , by telling them what was the first institution thereof , cor. . &c. and thus the lord jesus calling on the declining church of ephesus for reformation , bids her remember from whence shee is fallen , and repent and doe her first workes . rev. . . now the assumption is plaine from the texts above alledged , that at the reforming of a church , there is to be a renuing of covenant ; and thence it follows , that at the first erecting of a church , there was the making of a covenant with god , for els this renuing of covenant would not have been the way to reforme it . the fourth argument is taken from that which doth dissolve a church , which is the dissolving or breaking of the covenant , zach. . , . if dissolving the covenant be that which doth dissolve the church , then the making of covenant is that which constitutes a church . the reason of the consequence is plaine , because otherwise the covenant might be dissolved & the church stand still , if it were not the making of the covenant that did constitute the church : but if dissipating stones in a building doe dissolve the house , then the compacting and conjoyning of them is that which makes the house ; if separation of soule and body be that which destroyes the man , that then we say he is not : it must needs be the uniting of them , that did constitute & make the man : and so it is 〈…〉 case . and that dissolving the covenant is that which dis●ol●ves a church , is plaine from the text alledged , zach. . where the breaking of the two staves , of beautie and bands , that is , the unchurching of the jewes , is interpreted to be the breaking of the covenant that god had made with that people , and the brotherhood that was between iudah and israel . the fifth argument is taken from the distinction which god hath appointed amongst churches , and the confounding of all churches into one , if there be not this covenant to distinguish them . if churches be distinct societies , and may not be confounded , then churches are compacted and combined by covenant : but the former is true . ergo . that churches are distinct societies , is plaine in the scripture , where we have mention of many churches in one countrey or province , gal. . . thes. . . of seven churches in asia , rev. . . and of all the churches , cor. . . rev. . . ephesus is not smyrna , nor smyrna is not thyatira , nor either of them pergamus , but each one distinct of themselves , having officers of their owne , which did not belong to others : vertues of their owne for which others are not praised , corruptions of their owne , for which others are not blamed ; if it were not thus , then when laodi●ea is condemned for lukewarmenesse , or ephesus for declining , all the rest should be reproved also : and when philadelfia is praised , all the rest should be praised also , which we see is otherwise . now from hence the consequence is certaine , that therefore they are combined by some covenant each one amongst themselves ; for there is nothing els without this that wil sufficiently distinguish them . the spirit of god and faith in their hearts , is common to all christians under heaven , and in heaven also , and therefore this is not the thing that makes distinction . nor is it habitation in the same towne together , for that may be common to such christians as are not of this church , and usually is to many that are no christians . as it is with companies in london ; as the company of goldsmiths , &c. that many others dwell in the same towne with them , yea it may be in the same streete that are not of their company : and therefore it is not meerely habitation that doth distinguish them from others , but some combination and agreement amongst themselves ; so it is not habitation in the same towne that distinguisheth churches , and church-members from other men , but their mutuall agreement and combination and joyning themselves together in an holy covenant with god . if the spirit of god and faith in their hearts cannot distinguish one church from another , because these are common to them all , then how can covenant distinguish them , sith all churches are joyned by covenant one as well as another ? it is not a covenant simply or a covenant in generall that doth constitute a church , or distinguish one church from another , but a covenant with application and appropriation to these persons . even as it is in marriage , though all married couples be united by covenant , and a covenant , wherein one couple promiseth the same duties that another couple doth yet a covenant with application and appropriation of the duties covenanted to this man and this woman in particular , such a covenant is the very thing that make a couple , man and wife together , and gives them mutuall power over each other , as husband and wife , and puts a distinction between them and all other men and women in the world . and so it is in this case ; a covenant to performe church-duties with application and appropriation to such persons , is the very thing that constitutes a church , and distinguisheth one church from another . and thus much concerning the former of the two particulars , to shew the use of church-covenant , viz. that it is that whereby a company doe become a church . the second particular is this , taking hold of the covenant , or joyning in it , is that which makes a particular person a member of a church . and this followes upon the former , and that may be the first argument to prove it . if joyning in covenant be that which makes a company to become a church , then taking hold of that covenant is requisite to make a particular person become a member of the church : but the first is true , as hath been shewed before ; therefore the second is true also : if compacting and conjoyning of stones and pieces of timber , be that that makes an house , then a particular stone cannot become a part of that house , till it be compacted and conjoyned to the rest : but the former is true , even in the church of god , which is the spirituall spouse and citie of god , living stones , christians , beleevers must be compacted together , and builded up together , ephes. . . . psal. . . and therefore the latter is true also , that a particular christian becomes a member of the church , a part of that building by being combined with the rest . a second argument may be drawne from the scripture , isa. . , , . let not the sonne of the stranger , that hath joyned himselfe to the lord , speake , saying , the lord hath utterly separated me from his people , &c. the sonnes of the strangers that joyne themselves to the lord , to serve him , &c. and take hold of my covenant , even them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer , &c. concerning which scripture , note three things to the present purpose . first , that these strangers were members of christ , true beleevers , joyned to god by faith ; for it is said , they have joyned themselves to the lord , v. & v. . that they loved the name of the lord , served him , and kept his sabbaths , v. . and yet for all this they were not as yet joyned , as members of the visible church , for if they had been ioyned , there would have been no cause for such a complaint , the lord hath separated me from his people , v. . besides , bringing them into the church as members , and granting them the priviledge of members , is promised as a reward and blessing upon this their joyning to the lord by faith and obedience , v. . and therefore it is not the same , but a disti●ct thing from it ; the one being promised as a reward and blessing upon the other . secondly , the lord promiseth that he will make them members of his church : them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer . thirdly , that among other things requisite to make them members , this was one , viz. the taking hold of that covenant which was between the church of israel and god , v. . so that hence we may gather , that men may be members of christ , joyned to the lord by faith and love , and yet for the present not be members of the visible church : and that when god is so gracious to true beleevers , as to make them members of his visible church , it is requisite that they joyne in covenant before . but might not faith in christ , beleeving in heart on the god of israel , be all the taking hold of the covenant that is here meant . not so , but over and above that , here is also meant their open profession of their faith in the god of israel , and open binding of themselves by covenant to all such duties of faith and obedience , as god required of the church of israel , and the members thereof . now distinctly take the answer to this objection in three or foure particular propositions . first , there was a covenant between the church of israel and god , exod. . , , , . ezek . . deut. . . &c. secondly , this covenant was mutuall ; not onely a promise on gods part to be their god , and to take them for his people , but also reciprocally on their part to give up themselves unto god to be his people , and to doe the dutie of people to their god ; the covenant is not meerely to receive from god , and promise nothing back againe to him ; nor doth god binde himselfe therein , and leave men at libertie , but it is mutuall on both parts , as these scriptures declare ; gen. . . exod. . . . deut. . . & . , . hos. . . & zach. . . thirdly , hereupon it followes , that if men had not promised , and also performed , in some measure of truth , the duties of faith and obedience unto god , they had not taken hold of the covenant , but had discovenanted themselves , notwithstanding all the promises of god unto their fathers or others . thus though god promised abraham to be a god to him , and to his seede in their generations , gen. . . yet the ishma●lites and edomites descending from abraham , were discovenanted by not promising nor performing those duties of faith and obedience , which god required on the peoples part : when a covenant containes promises on gods part , and duties also on mans , he doth not take hold of the covenant that takes one part , and leaves another . fourthly , to beleeve what god promised in the covenant for his part , and to promise in a private way the duties of obedience on mans part , was not sufficient to make these strangers members of the church , but they must doe it openly and in the view of the church , else the church could have had no warrant to have admitted such into their fellowship , if their faith and obedience had not been visibly professed , exod. . . chron. . . and in as much as the covenant was mutuall , when these strangers did manifest their taking hold of the covenant , they manifested and professed both faith and obedience , both that they beleeved what god promised , and that they would be obedient to what he required ; if any shou●d have claimed church-fellowship , saying , i beleeve the promises , but would not binde himselfe to any duties of evangelicall obedience , this had been a taking hold of the covenant by the halves , a taking of one part of it in seeming and pretence , and a leaving of another ; but it would not have been sufficient to have brought a man into the fellowship of the church : such of the congregation of israel as would not come to hierusalem to enter into covenant , were to be separated from the church in the dayes of ezrya , ezra . . and therefore such as being strangers should refuse to enter into it , could not be admitted into the church ; so that the taking hold of gods covenant , which is there required to make these strangers members of the church , is a beleeving in heart on the god of israel , and an open profession that they did beleeve , and likewise a promise of obedience or subjection unto the god of israel , and an open professing of such obedience and subjection ; and that is the joyning in covenant which we stand for , before a man can be a member of a church , even an open profession of faith and of obedience . a third argument is taken from those scriptures which shew that men become members by being added to the church , or being joyned to them , act. . . & . . & . . if men become members of the church by being added or joyned , then joying in covenant ( or professing of subjection to the gospel or covenant of god ) is that whereby a man becomes a member of a church : but the former is true , as appeares by the scriptures forementioned , and therefore the latter is true also . but all the doubt in this argument will be concerning the consequence of the major proposition ; but that may be made good by this reason , and the confirmation of it , viz. that a man cannot be added or joyned to the church by any other meanes without this joyning in covenant . the truth of which assertion will appeare by shewing the insufficiency of all other means , without this joyning in covenant , and that may be done in answer to the objections ensuing . when men were added to the church , it may be , no more is meant but tha● god did convert them and worke faith in their hearts , and that converting of them was the adding of them to the church . this cannot be all ; for , first , saul was converted and had faith wrought in his heart , and yet he was not at the first received for a member of the church at hierusalem ( though he assayed to be joyned unto them , ) till they were better satisfied in his spirituall estate by the testimony of barnabas , act. . , , . and those strangers , isa. . ( as was said before ) were joyned to the lord by being converted , and having faith wrought in their hearts , and yet they doe lament it with griefe , that they were not joyned as members to the visible church : the lord hath separated me from his people , say they , ver. . the old saying is true concerning the visible church , there are many wolves within , and many sheepe without . secondly , those that were joyned were beleevers before they joyned ; for it is said , divers were added , ver. . thirdly , those that were added to the church , were added and joyned to them by such an act as others durst not put forth , act. . . of the rest durst no man joyne unto them , and therefore it was not by the irresistable act of god in converting of them , but by some volun●ary act of their owne choice and consent ; for gods converting grace depends not upon mans daring , or not daring to receive it . if to be joyned be no more but to be converted , then when it is said , some durst not be joyned , the meaning should be , they durst not be converted , nor suffer faith to be wrought in them ; which is grosse arminianisme , suspending the converting grace of god upon the free will of the creature . fourthly , and as this joyning which others durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted ; so if it be well considered , what the thing was wherein they durst not joyne , it may appeare that it was nothing els but this , that they durst not agree , and engage themselves to be of their body and societie ; that is , they durst not joyne in covenant with them . for it cannot be meant of dwelling in the towne with them , for this they both durst doe and did : nor is it onely of joyning to heare the word in their assembly , for this also they durst doe , and many did it in great multitudes , so that many by hearing the word became beleevers , and were added to the lord both of men and women , ver. . at this very time when it is said of some they durst not joyne unto them : nor is it of joyning to them in affection , or approbation of their way , for this they also durst doe and did expresse so much in magnifying and commending them , when yet they durst not joyne unto them , ver. . which magnifying of them doth imply that they heard their doctrine , and saw their practise , and approved it , and highly commended them for the same : wherefore seeing this joyning , which some durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted , nor of joyning in habitation , nor of joyning in affection , nor in hearing the word in their assembly , nor of approbation , and expressions that way , it remaineth that it must be meant of joyning in that neere relation of church-fellowship amongst them , so as to be engaged by voluntary consent and agreement to be members of their church . fiftly , if joyning to the church , were no more but to be converted , then he that were converted were joyned as a member of every visible church throughout the world , which were a great confusion of that order , and distinction of churches , which the lord hath appointed . men may be joyned to the church , in heartie affection and love , and yet without any covenant . true , but this will not make them members of that church , for then saul was member of the church at hierusalem , afore he was joyned a member , for he was joyned to them in heartie affection afore , and therefore assayed to joyne as a member ; and so were they that durst not joyne , act. . . yea then a man should be a member of many churches , yea of all christian churches in the world ; for he is to love them , and beare heartie affection to them all ; the true members of the churches in england are united in heartie affection , to the churches in scotland , in holland , in france , in new-england , &c. and yet they are not members of all these churches , nor subject to their censures as members are . but the reason of that is because they doe not dwell among them in the same towne . neither would habitation with them in the same towne , make a man a member of the church there , if there be no more then so . suppose saul to have dwelt in the same house afore his conversion in which he dwelt after , which is not unpossible nor unlikely ; yet we see he was no member of the church at hierusalem , afore his conversion , no nor of some time after , though he might have dwelt in an house in the midst of the christians , and church-members there . the members of the dutch and french churches in london , or other townes in england , are not members of the english●congregations or churches , no more then the english are of theirs , and yet they dwell promiscuously together in the same s●recte of the same towne . towne-dwelling would not make a man a free-man of a company in london , or some other corporation ; for many others dwell in the towne with them ; yea it may be in the same streete , that are not free of their company , and so it is in this case . but the reason why such as dwell in towne with the church , are not members thereof , may be , because they frequent not their assemblies . idiots and infidells might come into the publick meetings among the corinthians , . cor. . , , . yet idiots and infidells were not therefore members of the church . and saul after his conversion might have come in among the church in time of publick duties , and have seene and heard all that they had done : yet this would not have made him of one body with them . some indians , moores , and other naturall persons come into our meetings in new-england , some of their owne accord , and others by the command or counsell of their masters and governours , yet no man can say , that all these are hereby made church-members . wherefore seeing neither conversion , nor loving affection , nor cohabitation , nor coming into their meetings , doth joyne a man as a member of the visible church ( for some men have all these , and yet are not members , and others are sometimes members of the visible churches , and yet want some of these , are hypocrites and want sound conversion ) it remaineth therefore that as sound conversion makes a man fit matter for a church ; so profession of his faith , and of his subjection to the gospel , and the churches approbation , and acceptance of him ( which is the summe of church-covenant ) is the formall cause that gives him the being of a member . but joyning doth not alway signifie joyning in covenant ; philip joyned to the eunnuchs chariote , and dust to mens feete , act. . . & luke , . and yet there was no covenant , and therefore men may joyne to the church without any covenant . the word indeed may expresse any close joyning , whether naturall , ( as the branch is joyned to the vine , or an arme or other member to the body ) or artificiall , as when two stickes were joyned to become one in ezekiels hand , ezek. . or when carpenters or masons doe joyne pieces of stone or timber together , to make one house , neh. . . ezr. . . but is not onely the force of the word that is stood upon . but when joyning is used to expresse such joyning , wherein a man voluntarily takes on him a new relation , there it alwayes implyes a covenant , whether the relation be morall and civill , or religious and ecclesiasticall : we speake of voluntary relation , for there are naturall relations , as betweene parents and children : and these need no covenant , there is no covenant to make a man a parent , or a childe ; there are also violent relations , as between conquerour and captives , and in these there is no covenant neither ; but others are voluntary , and these alwayes imply a covenant , and are founded therein , whether they be morall and civill ( as between husband and wife , pro. . . between master and servants , luk. . . between prince and subject , between partners in trade , chro. . , , . where the covenant or agreement is , that men shall bare such a share of charges , and receive such a share of profits : ) or religious , as between minister and people , between the church and the members : all these are done by way of covenant . a man cannot joyne himselfe to a woman as her husband , but by way of covenant : a man cannot joyne himselfe to another as a servant , or apprentise , but by way of covenant ; and so may we say of all the rest ▪ nor into any body corporate , but by the same way and means . if men be united into a body politick or incorporate , a man cannot be said to be joyned to them by meere heartie affection , unlesse withall he joynes himselfe unto them by some contract or covenant . now of this nature is every particular church , a body incorporate , cor. . . yee are the body of christ , &c. and hath power to cast out , cor. . ▪ as a body incorporate ; and therefore he that will joyne unto them , must doe it by way of covenant or agreement ; and so this answer to this objection , may be a fourth argument to prove the point in hand , that joyning in covenant is that which makes a man , a member of a church . all voluntary relations , all relations which are neither naturall nor violent , are entred into by way of covenant . but he that joynes into a church as a member , or enters into a church , doth take upon him such a relation ; therefore joyning to a church as a member , is by way of covenant . a fifth argument may be drawne from the power which all churches , officers and members , have over all their members in the lord . if all churches , officers , and members , have power in the lord over all their members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to make a man a member of a church , but the former is true , therefore the latter is true also . the assumption in this argument , that all churches have power over their members , is proved from cor. . , . . where the apostle reproveth the corinthians for suffering the incestuous man amongst them , and commands them to deliver him to sa●an , and cast him out from amongst them . now this he would not have done , if they had had no power over him , or if there had been any roome for them to say , wee have nothing to doe with him , wee have no power over him . and the same is prooved in other scriptures also ; as , mat. . . psal. . . , , . and the consequence of the major proposition , viz. that then members doe engage themselves by covenant , is proved by this reason ; that churches have no power over such as have not engaged themselves by covenant , and committed power unto them , by professing to be subject to all the ordinances of christ amongst them . the truth whereof may appeare by two reasons : first , because all christians have power and right , jure divino , to choose their owne officers to whom they commit their soules , act. . & . & . where the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , imports choosing by election : and so the word is used and translated , cor. . . he was chosen by the churches , &c. it is not ministeriall gifts that makes a man a minister to every church , nor investeth him with spirituall power over them , nor though he dwell amongst them , unlesse they call him , and he accept of that call : and as they have power to choose their officers , so likewise to choose their brethren according to god , rom. . . now if they have power to choose their officers and brethren , then none can have power over them as officers and brethren , without their owne consent , and whom they never chose , nor promised by any covenant or engagement to be subject to the lord . secondly , if the church should exercise any act of church-power over such a man as never entred into covenant with them ( suppose to excommunicate him for whoredome or drunkennesse , or the like ) the man might protest against their act , and their sentence , as coram non judice , and they could not justifie their proceedings , if indeed there have passed no covenant or engagement between him and them . if he shall say , you have nothing to doe to passe sentence or censure upon me , i am none of your church , but of another church ; suppose in holland , in france , &c. and i am onely here now for merchandise sake , or upon some other occasion : what shall they say to stop his mouth , if there never passed any covenant between him and them . but ministers have power over the people by the word of god , heb. . . thes. . . tim. . . and not by mens engaging themselves by covenant . but what is it that makes men ministers to such a people , officers to such a church , or maketh them sheepe of my flocke ? is it not those scriptures that makes every man a pastour , or teacher , or ruler to a people , unlesse they call him to that office ; and then in so doing they covenant and engage themselves to be subject to him in the lord , and then those scriptures take hold on them . one might as well say , it is not the covenanting of a wife to her husband that gives him power over her , but the word of god ; for as the word of god commands people to obey their ministers , so it commands wives to be subject to their husbands , ephes. . . and yet all men know , a man cannot take this woman for his wife but by covenant . so that if shee once makes her selfe a wife by her owne voluntary covenant , then the word of god takes hold on her , and bindes her to doe the duties of a wife : but if shee , hath made no covenant , the man hath no power over her as her husband , neither is shee his wife ; so if men once make themselves members of such a church , sheepe of such a mans flocke , by their own voluntary covenant , then the wo●d of god takes hold of them , and bindes them to doe the duties of members to their fellow-brethren , and of people to their pastours or ministers . but if they never chose such a man to be their minister , nor covenanted to be subject to him in the lord , he then can have no power over them as a minister unto them , because they have right to chose their owne ministers . a sixth argument may be taken from the distinction that is between members , and not members . if there be by the word of god a distinction , between members of the church and such as are no members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to the being of a member ; but the former is true , as appeares cor. . . some are within , and may be judged by the church , and others are without , and may not : and therefore the latter is true also . and the reason of the consequence is because there is nothing else without this joyning in covenant , that can sufficiently distinguish them ; it is not faith and grace in their hearts , for some men are members of the visible church , and yet have no grace , and others may have grace , and yet be no members , and therefore this is not the thing that doth distinguish them , nor is it affection , nor cohabitation , nor every approbation of the word of god , and the wayes of his church , not comming into their assemblies to heare the word ; but these things were touched before , and therefore may be here the more briefly passed over . and so much shall suffice to have spoken of the second particular , concerning the use of church-covenant , tha●●t is by joyning therein that a particular person becomes a member of a church . but here it will be needfull to remove sundry objections , which may seeme to some to be of great weight against church-covenant , that so by the removing of them , the truth may be the more cleared , to fu●ler satisfaction , if it be the will of god . church-covenant is a terme that is not found in s●ripture . first , so is sacrament , trinitie , &c. and yet those termes may be lawfully used , because the thing meant thereby is found . secondly , but seeing the covenant is between the lord and his church , as the two parties that are confederate , it is all one whether it be called the lords covenant , or the church-covenant : as when mamre , aver , & eschol were confederate with abraham , gen. . . might not one truely say , abraham was confederate with them ? relatives doe mutually put and establish one another . thirdly , the scripture allowes both the lords covenant with the church , eze. . . & the peoples covenant or saints covenant , or churches covenant with him , deut. . . psal. . . ier. . . fourthly , there is good reason for both the words ; both the lords covenant , and the church-covenant , because both are confederate ; and for that of church-covenant , there is this reason also , viz. to distinguish it from other covenants , as a marriage-covenant , pro. . . and a brotherly covenant , sam. . . the church - covenant being thus called not onely because they are a church , or members thereof that make it , but also because they enter into it in reference to church-estate and church-duties : the duties which they bind themselves unto in this covenant being such especially as concern a church and the members thereof . but this church-covenant puts some disparagement upon the covenant of grace , which every beleever is already entred into with god , and seeme to charge the same with insufficiency ; for every second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , heb. . . . a second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , where the covenants are contrary one to another , as the covenant of ●race , and the covenant of works are , and so it is most true , that the bringing in of the free covenant of grace did argue that righteousnes and life could not be attained by the law , or covenant of works ; for if there had been a law given which could have given life , verily righteousnesse should have been by the law . gal. . . rom. . . . but if it be the same covenant that is renewed or made againe , though upon a new occasion , no man can say that entring into the same the second time , or a third , or a fourth , doth disanull the first , or cast dispa●agement upon the same . the covenant of works given to adam was not blamed or saulted , because it was renewed in sinai the covenant of grace was first given to adam in paradise after his fall , afterward to abraham , then to the people of israel under types and shadows ; and againe after the coming of christ in the flesh ; yet none of these doth disanull the former , or argue the same to be ●aulty ; and the reason is , because it is still the same covenant though renewed upon new occasions ; and in some particulars in some other manner . and the like we say concerning church-covenant , or the covenant which a man makes when he enters into the church , viz. that it is not another covenant contrary to the covenant of grace , which every beleever is brought into at his first conversion , but an open profession of a mans subjection to that very covenant , specially in the things which concerne church estate , into which estate the man is now entring . it is not lawfull to make such a covenant as the church-covenant , because it is not in our power to keep it , and we do not know whether god will give us power . this ground is very true , that no man hath power of himselfe to any thing that good is , but all a mans power and abilitie must come of god through ch●ist , . cor. . . phil. . . ioh. . . but the in●erence is not good , that therefore it should be unlawfull to ento into church-covenant : for . by the same reason , all promises are unlawfull , and all covenants whatsoever ; as the covenant of marriage , the covenant of service , yea and the personall covenant o● grace , when a particular soule promiseth faith and new obedience ; for there is none of these , no not the covenant of marriage , which a man is able of himself to keep , as the adultery of david and bathsheba , among others , doth plainly prove . . god hath promised to give power to them that in self-deniall seek it of him , and trust to his promise for it . ezek. . . ier. . . rom. . . ier. . . the true inference therefore from this ground , from mans disabilitie to performe were this , that therefore a man should not enter into church covenant in his owne strength , for that was peters fault in promising not to deny christ , but to die with him rather : but church-covenant , as also all other promises , should be entred into , in an humble looking up to christ jesus for help and assistance to performe . thou therefore my sonne , be strong in the grace that is in christ iesus , . tim. . . god disalloweth covenants of mans making ( and so our church-covenant ) in those words , but not by thy covenant . ezek. . . god doth not reprove them there for making covenant , for then he were contrary to himselfe , who elsewhere called them to do it , exod. . deut. . and commended them for it , psal. . . yea and in that very place of ezek. . acknowledgeth a covenant betweene him and them , ver. . . but the meaning is , he would do them good , but not for their good keeping the covenant of works , for they had very sinfully broken it , ver. . but even as he saith elsewhere , not for their sakes , or for their righteousnesse , ezek. . . deut. . , , . but what force is there in this arguing , viz. if god will do us good , but not for our good keeping the covenant of works , then it is not lawfull to promise obedience to the covenant of grace , in such things as concerne church estate ; all men may easily see that here is a plaine non sequitur . this entring into covenant may keep out many good men from joyning to the churches , because they are not satisfied about it : and therefore it is better laid aside . it is not impossible , but good men may for a time be unsatisfied about it , till they understand the nature and use of it , and yet the thing be warrantable enough for all that in the sight of god ; the tribes were troubled at the altar set up upon the banks of jordan by the two tribes and an halfe , till they understood the intent and use of it , and for what purpose it was erected : and then they were satisfied . iosh. . and the same may be said of peters eating with the gentiles , which at the first was very offensive to them of the circumcision , till they understood what peter had to say for his defence therein , and then they rested well satisfied , act. . but if men understand what the church-covenant is , there is no reason that good men should be troubled at it ; it being nothing else but a promise of obedience unto the gospel of christ , or of such duties as the gospel requireth of all christians in church-estate : for , will good men refuse to obey the gospel , or submit to the ordinances of christ ? or will they refuse to professe and promise so much ? if a man understand what it is , and what we meane by it , and yet refuse to enter into it when he hath opportunitie thereto , such refusing is no part of his goodnesse , but is to be reckoned amongst his corruptions ; it is ignorance at the best , and if not so , then it may be perversenesse of will , or some want of will to performe obedience to the gospel . and surely there is smal hope that such would yeeld subjection and obedience to the gospel , who do refuse to professe or promise it . but the scripture , act. . . tels of joyning to the church without any covenant . for it was not possible that . should enter into covenant in one day . two things may be said in answer to this objection . first , that . were not so many , but that joyning in covenant might easily be done by them all , in one day . for , . it was at penticost , at which time of the yeer the dayes were at the longest : and , . the scripture tels us , that david made a covenant with all the tribes of israel in one day , . sam. , , . the articles of the covenant betweene david and the tribes , and so betweene this . and the lord might be openly declared , and they both the one and the other might by some signe or other , expresse their consent thereunto in one day . secondly , as joyning in covenant is a thing that might be done , so it is more then probable that indeed it was done , by those . soules . for it is said , ver. that they gladly received the word , that is , they openly professed that they did with all their hearts receive it , for this receiving of the word is noted as a condition , upon which they were admitted to baptisme , and therefore it was not onely an inward receiving of it in their hearts , but also an open professing that they did receive it ; for an inward receiving of it in their hearts , without an open professing thereof outwardly , would not have been sufficient for the admitting of them unto bapti●me . now this word which they received was an exhortation to repentance for sinne , and to faith in the promise , ver. . . and to obedience in severing themselves from others , and saving themselves from that untoward generation , ver. . and therefore when they openly professed , that they gladly received this word , there was an open professing of their repentance for sinne , ver. . of their faith in the promise , and of obedience to the commandement , which is nothing else , but the very summe of church-covenant : yea , and further , their very preparation to this repentance , faith and obedience , in that true compunction and sorrow of soul , was also openly made manifest . ver. . but yet there would not be such long narrations , of every one severally as now are used , when men do enter into church-covenant , when each one makes a good long speech , in the profession of his faith and repentance . when the thing is certaine , as was shewed before , that they did openly professe repentance , faith and obedience , it is not difference in the length or largenesse of their spe●ches in expressing of themselves , that can make any difference in the thing : majus & minus non diversisicant speciem . and we denie not but they might be briefer , because there was not such need they should be long in regard of some difference betweene them and us , their time and ours : first there were the apostles present to heare their confessions , and to judge thereof , who were men of very good discerning , and therefore briefer expressing of mens selves might suffice ; whereas the best christians , yea the best ministers amongst us are not to be compared to the apostles ; and therefore as we need more time for study , and for preparation for our sermons then they did : so likewise we need more time to heare , and try the soundnesse of mens repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ . yet this we may adde withall , that if the apostles and those primative christians , men of such excellent discerning were sometimes deceived , and could not alwayes so discern , but that some hypocrites would creep into the church : as the example of ananias and saphira doth witnesse ; how much more need is there , that the churches of god in these dayes ( being far inferiour to them ) should be very watchfull and circumspect in trying the spirituall estates of them that offer to come into the church ? secondly , their times also differed from ours : for their christianitie was a matter of reproach and danger of excommunication , ioh. . . of imprisonment , act. . . and . . and the like . and therefore to see men now to make open profession of their faith in christ jesus , whose servants and disciples were so hated , and who himselfe but a while before was crucified , this was not an ordinarie matter : and therefore in words , men might be the briefer when they came to be received into the church : but our times in new england do not persecute christ , and christians , and christian churches , but countenance them , and protect them ; and therefore there is more need now to be more studious in examination of mens estates when they offer themselves for church members : when the jews were in favour , many of the people of the land became jews , esth. . . but why is there so little proofe of this church-covenant in the new testament ? . suppose the new testament said nothing of it , yet it might have ground sufficient from the scriptures of the old testament ; for if it was gods revealed will in those dayes , that a companie should become a church , and particular persons become members of that church by way of covenant , we may be sure it is so now likewise , unlesse covenanting were peculiar to the jewish paedigogie ; indeed if it had never been used in those times , but were some new ordinance , peculiar to the dayes of the new testament , in such cases also a ground from the scriptures of the new testament were necessarie , as there is in all such things wherein there is any change or variation , from what was used in those times afore christ , as that there should not be nationall churches , but congregationall , and not one visible church , but many , that there should be baptisme , and the lords supper : these are matters that are not found in the old testament , nor were appointed to be used in those dayes , and therefore we must have warrant for them in the new , and so we have . but for the covenant it is otherwise , it is no new ordinance peculiar to the dayes of the gospel , nor any leviticall ordinance peculiar to the jewish pedigogie ; and therefore the scriptures of the old testament that give warrant for it , may be sufficient as hath been shewed afore . . and yet there is not wanting good warrant for it , that it ought to be used , in the dayes of the new testament . for , . the prophets do foretell it , isa , , , and . and ier. . . ez●k , . . and in sundrie other places , to omit the rest at this time , because some of them have been spoken of before ; onely let those words of isa. . . be well considered , and see if they do not plainly hold forth that in the dayes of the new testament , men should openly professe their faith , and solemnly bind themselves by coven●nt to be the lords people , one shall say , i am the lords , and another shall call himself by the name of iacob , and another shall subscribe with his hand , and sirname himself by the name of israel . these words are so plaine for open professing of faith in the lord , and open binding of mens selves by covenant unto him , as we conceive nothing need be more . . the apost●es do sufficiently testifie , that such a thing was practised in heir dayes , 〈◊〉 how should we understand that fellowship in the gospel in its full latitude and breadth , phil. . . if this combining into church fellowship be no part thereof ; yea when it is said , they continued stedfastly , or as the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , may well be translated , they strongly did cleave together , or hold together in such a fellowship , which was not preaching and hearing the doctrine of the apostles , nor sacraments , no● prayer , but a thing distinct from all these . if this combining themselves into a spirituall fellowship and societie of church-state be no part thereof , we know not how to understand it , nor what that fellowship should meane ; if doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer had not been particularly mentioned , in the same place , it might have been thought that the fellowship in which they so steadfastly clave together had been no more , but their coming together to observe these said ordinances , and their communion therein . but when all these are particularly mentioned , and fellowship mentioned among them , as a thing distinct from the rest , we may not confound it with the rest . we might as well say , that by doctrine is meant sacraments , and by sacraments is meant prayer ; as to say that by fellowship is meant not●ing else but the exercise of doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer . and if these as they are distinctly named be distinct ordinances , and may not be confounded , then fellowship being named in the same manner imports something distinct from them all , and may not be confounded with them , nor with any of them , no more then the other may be confounded one with another . and if so , then as this fellowship may import , the communion of their gift and goods one for the helpe of another , so it must first of all imply a combining of themselves into church-state by mutuall ag●eement , consent , or covenant . furthermore , when the apostle writ●th , that by experience of the corinthians liberall contribution to the poore saints , men glorified god for their professed subjection to the gospel of christ , . cor. . . he plainly imployes thereby , that the corinthians had made a profession or promise of such subjection to the gospel as did comprehend this particular of distributing to the necessitie of the saints , among other things . and their liberall distribution which he there speaks of , was looked at as one point of their reall performance of that subjection to the gospel , which they had before professed , and promised . now the church-covenant is nothing else , but the professing or promising of such subjection , and therefore this place is another proofe of church-covenant . besides , it hath been shewed afore in argument . that those places which speake of being added to the church , of joyning , or assaying to joyne unto the church , act. . . and . and . are not expounded according to the full meaning of them , when they are understood of any other joyning , if joyning in covenant be left out . and therefore the scriptures of the new testament do beare good witnesse unto church-covenant , though , as we said before , the scriptures of the old testament might have been sufficient if the new testament had spoken nothing of it . but baptisme makes men members of the visible church , and therefore the covenant is needl●sse . this is answered in the answer to the fourth of the . questions , where it is shewed at large that baptisme ●s a seale of the covenan● betweene god and the church , but neither makes the church , nor members of the church , nor alwayes so much as proves men to be members . this church-covenant is a late devise , and was not known in ancient time , and therefore is to be rejected . fi●st , true antiquitie is that of the scriptures . now sith church covenant is warranted by the scripture , as hath been shewed before in this discourse , it cannot be charged to want true antiquitie . when the papists are wont to charge the doctrine of protestants with novelty , and such as was never heard of before luther , the orthodoxe are wont to answer , that if the doctrine do not agree with the scripture , then let it be condemned for noveltie ; and if it do , it is warranted by the best antiquitie , even the testimonie of god himself who is the antient of dayes : our faith , saith doctor white , is in all points the same that is contained in the scripture , and so consequently of the same antiquitie : and therefore all they that say it came up but of late , must first prove it contrary to the word of god , or else hold their peace . white , way , . . and the same we say in this particular of the church-covenant . secondly , and yet they that search the stories and writers of the times and ages next after the apostles , may find some testimonie of church-covenant in those dayes : for instance , iustine martyr in his apol. . makes mention of three things which were required of all that were admitted into the church as members , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is regeneration , and soundnesse in the faith , and a promise to walke in obedience to the gospel . and generally this was the practise of all those times , that never any man was admitted to baptisme , nor his children neither , but they put him to answer three questions , abrenuntios ? whereto he answered , abrenuntio . credis ? whereto his answer was , credo : and spondes ? to which he answered , spondeo . so that here was an open declaration of his repentance from dead works , and of the soundnesse of his faith , in the two first particulars , and an open binding himself by covenant or promise to walke according to the gospel , in the third . but much needs not to be said in this point , unto them that do acknowledge scripture antiquitie to be sufficient , though after times should be found to swerve from the rules and patterns that are therein contained . if church-covenant be so necessarie , then all the reformed churches are to be condemned as no churches ; for they have no such covenant . they that have knowne those churches , not onely by their writings , and confessions of their faith , in synods and otherwise ; but also by living amongst them , and being eye-witnesses of their order , do report otherwise of them , viz. that they are combined together by solemne covenant with god and one another . zepperus , speaking of the manner , used in the reformed churches , in admitting the children of church-members to the lords table , when they came to age , and have been sufficiently catechised , and instructed in the doctrine of religion , tells us , that such children are admitted to the lords table , by publick profession of faith , and en●ring into covenant . cons●etum est , saith he , ut qui per aetate●i●que doctrinâ catecheticâ profectum ad sacram coenam primum a 〈◊〉 , fidei confessionem coram totâ ecclesiâ publice edant p●r parentes aut qui parentum l●co sunt , jussû ministri , in ecclesiae 〈◊〉 producti : quò●que in illa confessione , per dei gratiam 〈◊〉 , ac , juxta illam , vitam instituere , insuper etiam disciplinae ecclesiasticae ultrò ac sponte suâ subjicere sese velint , spondeant atque stipulentur , polit. eccles. lib. . cap. . p. . that is , the manner is , that they who by reason of age and proficiencie in the doctrine of catechisme are first admitted to the lords supper , should publickly before the whole church make confession of their faith , being brought forth into the sight of the church by their parents , or them that are instead of parents , at the appointment of the minister ; and likewise should promise and covenant by the grace of god to continue in that faith which they have confessed , and to lead their lives according to it ; yea , and moreover to subject themselves freely and willingly to the discipline of the church . these words we see are full and plaine , that children are not in those churches received to the lords supper , without personall confession of faith , and entring into covenant before ; and if they tooke this course with children come to age , there is as much reason , or more , that the same course should be holden with men of yeers , when they are admitted members . and so the same zepperus , speaking of the consociation of churches amongst themselves by mutuall confsederation , hath these words , which as they may be applyed to the combining of many churches , so may they be combining of many members of the same church , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} illa {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , quam in symbolo profite nunc apostolico , nihil aliud hic requirit , & vult , quam obligationem omnium ecclesiae membrorum & confoederationem , &c. that is , that communion of saints which we professe in the creed , doth require and meane nothing else but an obligation of all the members of the church , and a binding of them together by covenant . polit. eccles. li. c. . p. . to these testimonies of z●pperus , those words may be added of mr. parker our own countreyman , a man of singular note for learning and holinesse , who also himselfe lived sometimes beyond sea in the reformed churches , and there ended his dayes , so that we may safely give the more credit to his testimonie , he having so good meanes fully to know the state and order of those churches . now he speaketh of a solennis forma absque quâ in ecclesiae alicujus communionem nullus ritè recipitur : of a solemne forme , without which no man is rightly received into the communion of the church , hath these words . hic mos ille est reformatarum ecclesiarum non solum in lapsis restituendis , sed in extra●eis , imò quibuscunque recipiendis qui ad habitandum alicubi con●ident , etsi fortè in ecclesiâ illius loci quo ante commorabantur , juxta hanc formam admissi prius fuerant . examinat presbyterium , plebs consentit , quisque testes vitae suae secum adfert , vel testimonia saltem : publicatur nomen cujusque competentis pro concione , admonetur quisque siquid haebeat quod excipiat , ut denunciet presbyteris . si nihil contr● adferatur , admittitur quidem , sed non nisi solerni pactione cum deo & cum e●clesiâ . spondet verò ecclesiae , se ambulaturum prout sanctam illam communionem decet ; disciplinae illius ecclesiae subjacere velle , se fratribus illius communionis invigilaturum juxta christi prae ceptum , matth . . ut pra-veniantur sanenturque seandala , & illi ad studium bonorum operum provehantur . that is , this is the manner of the reformed churches , not onely in restoring such as have fallen , but in admitting of strangers , yea of all whoever they be , who do sit down in any place for habitation , though perhaps they have been formerly admitted after the same manner in the church where they have forme●ly dwelt ; the presbytery doth examine , the people do consent , every man brings with him witnesses of his life , or at least-wise testimonies : the name of each one that desires to be a member , is published in the assembly , every one is admonished if he have any exception against the party , to bring it to the presbytery . if nothing be brought against him , then indeed he is admitted ; but yet no otherwise then by a solemne covenant with god and the church ; and to the church he promiseth that he will walk as becometh that holy fellowship , that he will be subject to the discipline of that church , that he will watch over the brethren of that communion , according to the command of christ , mat. . . that offences may be prevented and healed , &c. polit. eccles. lib. . cap. . § . pag. , . much more he hath to the same purpose in that place , alledging sundry canons and decrees of synods of reformed churches , wherein they have determined that none should be received into their churches , but by this way of solemne covenant . and others that have lived amongst them may have been eye-witnesses that this is their usuall practise . but what shall be said of the congregations in england , if churches must be combined by covenant ? doth not this doctrine blot out all those congregations out of the catalogue of churches ? for what ever covenant may be found in the reformed churches in other parts , yet it is plaine that she english have none . though we deny not but the covenant in many of those congregations is more imp●●cite and not so plaine as were to be desired ; ( and what is amis●e in them , in their materialls , or in want of explicite combining of pure matter , or in any of their wayes wee will not take upon us to defend ) yet we hope we may say of them with master park●r , polit. eccl●s . lib . cap. § . pag. . non ab●st ea realis & substantialis ( quanquam mag is quàm par erat implicita ) coitio in foedus , ●aque voluntaria professio fidei substantialis : quâ ( deo gratia ) essentiam ecclesiae idque visibilis hacusque sar●am tectam in angli● conservavis ; that is , there wants not that reall and substantiall comming together , ( or agreeing in covenant , though more implicate then were meete ) and that substantiall profession of faith , which ( thanks be to god ) hath preserved the essence of visible churches in england unto this day . the reasons why wee are loath to say , that the congregations in england are utterly without a covenant , are these : first , because there we●e many christian churches in england in the apostles time , or within a while after , as m●ster fox sheweth at large , act. & mon. lib. . beginning pag where he reporteth out of gildas , that england received the gospel in the time of tiberius the emperour , under whom christ suffered , and that ioseph of arima●hea was sent of philip the aposti● from france to england about the yeare of christ . and remained in england all his time , and so he with his fellowes layd the first foundation of christian faith among the britaine people , and other preachers and teachers comming afterward , confirmed the same and increased it . also the said master fox reporteth out of tertullian , that the gospel was dispearsed abroad by the sound of the apostles into many nations , and amongst the rest into britaine , yea into the wildest places of britaine , which the romans could never attaine unto : and alledgeth also out of nic●phorus , that simon zelotes did spread the gospel to the west ocean , and brought the same into the iles of britaine : and sund●y other proofes he there hath for the same point . now if the gospel and christian religion were brought into england in the apostles times , and by their means , it is like that the english churches were then constituted by way of covenant , because that was the manner of constituting churches in the apostles time , as also in the times afore christ , as hath been shewed from the scripture before in this discourse . and if christian congregations in england were in those times combined by covenant , then eternitie of gods covenant is such , that it is not the interposition of many corruptions that may arise in after times that can disanull the same , except when men wil●ully breake covenant and reject the offers of the gospel through obstinacy , which we perswade our selves they are not come unto : and consequently the covenant remaines which hath preserved the essence of churches to this day ; though the mixture of manifold corruptions , have made the covenant more implicite then were mee●e . secondly , because there want no good records ( as may be seene in seldens history of tithes ) to prove that in former times in england it was free for men to pay their tithes and oblations where themselves pleased : now this paying of tithes was accounted as a dutie of people to their minister , or sheepe to their pastour : and therefore seeing this was by their owne voluntary agreement and consent , their joyning to the church as members thereof , & to the ministery thereof as sheepe of such a mans flock , was also by their owne voluntary agreement and consent : and this doth imply a covenant . it was not the precincts of parishes that did limit men in those dayes , but their owne choice . thirdly , those questions and answers ministred at baptisme , spoken of before , ( viz. do st thou renounce ? i doe renounce : doest thou beleeve ? i doe beleseve : doest thou promise ? i doe promise ) as they were used in other places , so were they also in england , and are unto this day , though not without the mixture of sundry corruptions . now this doth imply a covenant . and when the children came to age , they were not to be admitted to the lords supper , before they had made personall confession of their owne faith , and ratified the covenant which was made at their baptisme by their parents , which course indeed afterward did grow into a sacrament of confirmation , but that was an abuse of a good order . if here it be said , that the members of the parishionall assemblies are not brought in by their owne voluntary profession , but by the authority and proclamation of the prince , and therefore they have no such covenant . the answer is , that the christian prince doth but his dutie when he doth not tollerate within his dominions any open idolatry , or the open worship of false gods by baptized persons , but suppresseth the same : and likewise when he gives free libertie to the exercise of all the ordinances of true religion , according to the minde of christ , with countenance also and encouragement unto all those whose hearts are willingly bent thereunto , ezra . . & . and therefore this practise of his cannot overthrow the ●reenesse of mens joyning in church-communion , because one dut●e cannot oppose nor contradict another . and suppose that this course of the magistrate shou●d seeme to be a forcing of some to come in for members who were unfit , ( in which case it were not justifiable ) yet this doth not hinder the voluntary subjection of others , who with all their hearts desired it . when the israelites departed out of aegypt , there went a mixed multitude with them ▪ many going with them that were not israelites indeed , exod. . and in the dayes of morde●ay and hesth●r , many of the people of the lands became iewes , when the iewes were in favour and respect , est. . . and so joyned to them not of their owne voluntary minde , nor of any sincere heart towards god , but meerely for the favour or feare of men ; yet this forced or feined joyning of some could not hinder those that were israelites indeed from being israelites , nor make the iewes to be no iewes , no church-members . and the same may be said in this case , suppose the magistrates proclamation should be a cause , or an occasion rather , of bringing some into the church , who came not of their owne voluntary minde , but for feare , or for obteining favour , yet this cannot hinder , but others might voluntarily and freely covenant to be subject to the gospel of christ : such subjection and the promise of it being the thing which themselves did heartily desire , though the magistrate should have said nothing in it . if any shall hereupon inferre , that if the parishionall assemblies be churches , then the members of them may be admitted to church priviledges in new england , before they joyne to our churches : such one may finde his answer in the answer to the tenth of the thirty-two questions ; whereunto we doe referre the reader for this point . onely adding this , that this were contrary to the judgement and practise of the reformed churches , who doe not admit a man for member without personall profession of his faith , and joyning in covenant , though he had formerly been a member of a church in another place , as was shewed before out of master parker . lastly , if any say , that if these reasons prove the english congregations to have such a covenant as proves them to be churches , then why may not rome , and the assemblies of papists goe for true churches also ? for some man may thinke that the same things may be said for them that here in answer to this eleventh objection are said for the parishes in england : such one must remember two things : first , that we doe not say simply , a covenant makes a company a true church , but ( as was said before ) a covenant to walke in such wayes of worship to god and edification of one another , as the gospel of christ requireth . for who doubts , but there may be an agreement among theeves , pro. . a confederation among gods enemies , psal. . a conspiracy among the arabians , the ammonites and ashdodites , to hinder the building of hierusalem , neh. . , . and yet none of these are made true churches by such kind of confederacies or agreements . and so wee may say of the assemblies of papists , especially since the counsell of trent . if there be any agreement or confederacy among them , it is not to walke in the wayes of the gospell , but in wayes contrary to the fundamentall truths of the gospel , as idolat●y in worship , heresie in doctrine , and other antichristian pollutions and corruptions : and therefore if they combined in these things , such combinations will never prove them true churches . the church is the pillar and ground of truth , tim. . . but the religion of papists is so farre from truth , that whosoever liveth and beleeveth according to it , without repentance , cannot be saved . witnesse their doctrine in the point of vilifying the scriptures , and in point of free-will , and of justification by works , of the popes supremacy , of the sacrifice of the masse , of worshipping of images , &c. in regard of which , and such like , the holy ghost saith , that their religion is a sea , become as the bloud of a dead man , and every soule in that sea dyeth , rev. . . and therefore agreement in such a religion will never prove them to be true churches ; nor any assemblies of arrians , antitrinitaries , anabaptists , or famelists , supposing them also to be combined by covenant among themselves . but now for the assemblies in england , the case is farre otherwise ; for the doctrine of the articles of religion which they professe , and which they promise to hold and observe ( though some things are amisse in some of those articles , and though many persons live contrary in their lives ) yet the doctrine is such that whosoever beleeveth , and liveth according to it , shall undoubtedly be saved , and many thousands have been saved therein ▪ and therefore assemblies united by covenant to observe this doctrine may be true churches , when the assemblies of papists and others may be false , although they also were combined by covenant : the reason of the difference rising from the difference that is in the doctrine and religion which they severally professe , and by covenant binde themselves to observe , the one being fundamentally corrupt , and consequently pernicious : the other in the fundamentall points orthodoxall and sound . secondly , it must be remembred also ( which was intimated before ) that if fundamentall corruptions be professed in with impenitency and obstinacy , then god may disanull the covenant on his part , and give a bill of divorce to such a people , iere. . . now experience and the scripture also doth witnesse of the jesuited and tr●nt-papists , that they repented not of the workes of their hands , of worshipping devills , and idolls of gold , &c. neither repented they of their murthers , nor of their sorceries , nor of their fornications , nor of their thefts , rev. . , . but now for the parish assemblies in england , we hope that we may safely say , they doe not sinne of obstinacy , but of ignorance , having not been convinced ( and many of them never having had means to be convinced ) of the corruptions that are amongst them , in respect of their constitution , and worship , and ministery , and so the covenant remaining among them , may prove them to be churches , when it cannot stand the papists in like stead , they being impenitent and obstinate : which we doe not speake to justifie the parishes altogether , as if there were not dangerous corruptions found in them , nay rather ( the lord be mercifull to the sinnes of his people ) wee may lament it with teares , that in respect of their members and ministery , in respect of their worship and walkings , in many of those assemblies there are found such apparent corruptions , as are justly grievous to a godly soule , that is enlightened to discerne them , and greatly displeasing to the lord , and indeed had need to be repented of betime , least otherwise the lord remove the candlesticke and unchurch them , rev. . . in a word , the corruptions remaining are just causes of repentance and humiliation : but yet in as much as the articles of religion , which they professe , containe such wholesome doctrine , that whosoever beleeveth and walketh according thereunto , in sinceritie , shall undoubtedly be saved , and in as much as the corruptions are not persisted in with obstinacy , therefore wee deny not but they have the truth of churches remaining . but this opinion of church-covenant , is holden by none but the brownists , or those of the separation , and therefore it is not to be received . this ground cannot be made good , that none but they of the separation are for church covenant , for all the reformed churches generally , as was shewed before in answer to objection the tenth , are for it in their judgement & practise ; and shall all they be condemned for * brownists , or maintaining unlawfull separation from the church ? also master parker and doctor ames , men of our owne nation , famous for holinesse and learning , and moderation , both of them plead for church-covenant , and yet neither of them were brownists , but bare witnesse against that riged separation . ●or doctor ames , his judgement of church-covenant may be seene in his medulla , theol lib. . cap. . § , , . fideles non constitunt ecclesiam particularem , quamvis simul forsan plures in eodem loco conveniant aut vivant , nisi speciali vinculo intersese conju●guntur , &c. that is , beleevers doe not make a particular church , though perhaps there be many of them that meete together , and live in the same place , unlesse they be joyned together by some speciall bond amongst themselves : for so one church would many times be dissolved into many , and many churches confounded into one . now this bond is a covenant , either expressed or implicite , whereby beleevers do binde themselves particularly to performe all such duties , both towards god and mutually to one another , as pertaine to the nature of a church , and their edification . and thereupon no man is rightly admitted into the church , but by confession of his faith , and stipulation , or promise of obedience . these words doe plainely and fully shew his judgement of church - covenant , to be the very same that is held and practised in new-england at this day . and that he was not for that severitie and regiditie of separation , may be cleared from sundry of his workes , wherein he plainly and fully beares witnesse against the same , and namely , in his fresh suite against ceremonies , pag. . and in his second manuduction , wherein he purposely and at large deales in this argument of separation . sure it is master canne in his booke , wherein he goes about to prove the necessitie of separation from the non-conformists principles , doth professedly and expressely oppose himselfe against doctor ames in the point of separation , which shewes how farre the good doctor was from favouring that way , when they most zealously therein doe count him to be a speciall opposite of theirs , as indeed he was . and for master parker , his judgement of church-covenant was heard before in part ; where he so much approveth the practise of the reformed churches in this point . and much more may be seene of his judgement herein , in the sixteenth chap. of the third booke of his p●lit . ecclesiastica . and yet in the same place , and likewise lib . c●p . ▪ . of the same treatise he plentifully and plainly shewes his dislike of the wayes of separation , as is also acknowledged in an admonition to the reader , prefixed before that booke , by ● . r. suo , suorumque nomine . so that this assertion appeares to be untrue , wherein it is said , that none but brownists and separatists doe approve of church-covenant . as for the in●erence from this ground , that therefore church-covenant should not be received , because it is pleaded for and pract●●ed by the separatists . we answer , that this will not follow , unlesse it could be proved , that the separatists hold no truth ; or if they hold a truth wee must not hold it , that so it may appeare wee differ from them ; either of which , it were unreasonable to affirme . if the papists hold sundry articles of faith , as that there is a unitie of the divine essence , and trinitie of persons , that jesus christ is god and man , and that true messiah that was promised , and the onely saviour of the world , and many such like , must wee deny these things because they are holden by the papists ? this were as unreasonable as to condemne the doctrine of the resurrection , because it was maintained by the pharisees , act. . . and so we say of church-covenant , holden and practised by them of the separation ; as also many other truths are maintained by them : no reason that truth should be refused , because the separatists maintaine it . when doctor bancroft in a sermon at pauls-crosse , had avouched that the superioritie of bishops above other ministers , is by gods owne ordinance , and to make the contrary opinion odious , affirmed that aerius per●i●ting in it , was condemned for an heretique by the generall consent of the whole church , and that martin and his companions , doe maintaine the same opinion of aerius ; what saith learned doctor reinolds hereunto , in a letter to sir francis knolls , who required him to shew his judgement herein : touching martin , saith he , if any man behave himselfe otherwise then in discretion and charitie he ought , let the blame be laid where the fault is , and defend him not ; but if by the way he utter a truth , mingled with whatsoever else , it is not reason that that which is of god should be condemned for that which is of man : no more then the doctrine of the resurrection should be reproved , because it was maintained and held by the pharisees : wherefore removing the odious name of martin from that which is sinceritie and love , is to be dealt with , &c. and the very same doe wee say to them that would make church-covenant to be odious , because it is held by those of the seperation , who are commonly called brownists : if men behave themselves otherwise then they ought , we defend them not therein , but if they hold any truth mingled with whatsoever else , wee would not have that which is of god to be condemned , for that which is of man : truth should not be refused , because of other corruptions that may be found in them that hold it . if you with them hold church-covenant , you iustifie them in all their wayes of seperation and erronious opinions . not so , for many of them hold that there are no visible christians that stand members of the parishes in england , and that it is not lawfull to hold any private religious communion with such perso●s ; and that the parishionall assemblies are none of them true churches , and that it is not lawfull to hear any of those ministers to preach the word , none of which are justified at all by holding church-covenant , though they do hold the same ; there is no such necessarie and inseparable connexion betweene these opinions , and that of church-covenant , that he that holds this , must needs hold the other also . but the time hath been , when your selves did not hold church-covenant , as now you do ; when you were in england you were not of this mind , and therefore no marvell if your change since your coming to new england be suspected , and offensive . if you change your judgement and practise in this manner , god knows whether you may come at last , and therefore men may well be afraid of holding with you in this point , which your selves did not hold when you lived in your native countrey . some of us when we were in england , through the mercie of god , did see the necessitie of church-covenant ; and did also preach it to the people amongst whom we ministred , though neither so soone nor so fully as were meete , for which we have cause to be humbled , and to judge our selves before the lord . but suppose we had never knowne nor practised the same before our coming into this countrey , yet if it be a truth of god , there is no reason why we should shut our eyes against the light , when god holds it forth unto us , nor that others should be offended at us for receiving the same . for by the same reason men might still continue in their sinnes , and not make any progresse in knowledge and holinesse , that so they may not seeme unconstant , which were contrary to the scripture , wherein we are commanded nor to fashion our selves according to the former lusts of our ignorance . . pet. . . but to be changed , rom. . . and renued , ephes. . . and put off the old man , and put on the new , ephes. . yea to grow in grace and holinesse , . pet. . . and be stronger and stronger , iob . . that our good workes may be mo●e at the last , then at the first , revel. . . sure it is , the apostle tells the corin●hians and ephesians , that the time had been when they were not the same men that now they are when he wrote unto them ; and yet he doth not blame them for leaving their former opinions or practise , but commends them for it , . cor. . . ephes. . . &c. and it is said of apollos an eloquent man , and mighty in the scripture , that when he came to ephesus the way of god was expounded unto him more perfectly by aquila and priscilla , whereas before he was instructed in the way of the lord , knowing onely the baptisme of iohn : yet this was no dispraise at all to him , that now upon better information he would change his judgement to the better , nor unto them that were the means thereof : act. . , . nullus pudor est ad maliura transire . the time hath been , ( and we may be humbled for it ) when we lived without god in the world , and some of us in many sinfull courses : and shall any be offended , because we are not still the same ? and when god called us from the wayes of sin and death , to the fellowship of his grace in christ ; yet some of us lived a long time in conformity to the ceremonies imposed in our native countrey , and saw not the evill of them . but when god did open our eyes , and let us see the unlawfulnesse thereof , we cannot see but it would have been a with-holding the truth in unrighteousnesse , and a great unthankfulnesse to god for light revealed to us , if we should still have continued in that course through an inordinate desire of seeming constant : and therefore it is not any just cause of offence that we have changed our judgement and practise in those things , when we once perceived the word of god to disallow them . indeed it hath been sometime objected against mr. cartwright , and others , that desired the reformation of the churches in england , in regard of discipline and church-order , that they which stood so much for reformation in discipline , did in after times adde and alter some things , beyond what they saw at first , and what themselves had formerly desired ; and that therefore being so mutable , and inconstant in their apprehensions , they were not to be regarded , nor hearkened unto : to which objection mr. parker makes full answer in eccles. lib. . ca. . p. . where he sheweth from the scripture , and the testimonie of bishop iewel , doctor reinolds , and others , that in the reformation of religion god brings not his servants into perfection in knowledge and zeale at the first , but by degrees , so as they grow and make progresse in these things in such wise ; that their good works are more at the last then at the first , as was said of the church of thyatira , even as the man that had been blind , when christ restored him to his sight , could at the first but see men like trees walking , and afterward saw every man cleerly ; and therefore it is no good arguing to say these men have altered and corrected such things from what their apprehensions were at first , and therefore they are not to be regarded . now if this be no good arguing against mr. cartwright , and those that in england have been studious of reformation ( as indeed it is not ) then it is no good argument against us in this matter of church-covenant , to say we now hold and practise otherwise then we have done in former time . if any shall here reply , that change from conformity to the ceremonies to worship god more purely is warranted by the word , and therefore not blame-worthy , and that the same may be said of the case of apollos , of the corinthians , and ephesians forementioned , and of cartwright , and the rest in his times . we answer , that this is true , and thereby it appears , that it is not simply the changing a mans opinion or practise that can be counted blame-worthy , or offensive , but changing without warrant of the word ; and therefore in point of church-covenant , the issue must not be whether we or others have formerly known and practised it , but whether it have ground from gods word ; for if it have ( as we hope have been proved before in this discourse ) then the observing of it , can be no cause of just offence unto others , nor imputation of inconstancy to our selves , though in time past we had not had so much light as to discerne the necessitie and use thereof . the good lord pardon every one that prepareth his heart to seek god , though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary : and grant unto all his churches and servants , that the●● love may abound yet more and more in knowledge , and in all judgement , that they may discerne the things that differ ; and approve the things that are excellent , and by his spirit of truth be led forward into all truth , till antichrist be utterly consumed with the breath of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his coming , and the holy city new jerusalem come down from god out of heaven , as a bride adorned for her husband the lambe , the lord jesus , to whom be all glory of affiance and service for ever . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- object . . answer . object . answer . object . answer . object . . answer . argu. . object . . answer . obj. . answ. obj. ● . answer . argu. . argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . object . . answer . obj. . answ. obj. . object . . answ. object . . answ. argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . obj●ct . . answer . object . . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. reply . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. obj. . answ. obj. answ. obj. . answ. * by brownists and separatists you are to understād those of the rige● separation . reply . answ. obje . . answ. reply . answ. the summe of certain sermons upon genes. . vvherein not only the doctrine of justification by faith is asserted and cleared, and sundry arguments for justification before faith, discussed and answered : but also the nature and the meanes of faith, with the imputation of our sins to christ, and of christs righteousness to us are briefly explained and confirmed / preached at dorchester in new-england by richard mather ... ; and now by him published at the earnest request of sundry well-affected and godly christians. mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text w in the english short title catalog (wing m ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m estc w ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the summe of certain sermons upon genes. . vvherein not only the doctrine of justification by faith is asserted and cleared, and sundry arguments for justification before faith, discussed and answered : but also the nature and the meanes of faith, with the imputation of our sins to christ, and of christs righteousness to us are briefly explained and confirmed / preached at dorchester in new-england by richard mather ... ; and now by him published at the earnest request of sundry well-affected and godly christians. mather, richard, - . [ ], p. printed by samuel green, cambridg[e] in new-england : . reproduction of original in huntington library. errata: p. . eng bible. -- o.t. -- genesis xv, -- criticism, interpretation, etc. sermons, english -- th century. justification -- sermons. a w (wing m ). civilwar no the summe of certain sermons upon genes: . . vvherin not only the docrine [sic] of justification by faith is asserted and cleared, and su mather, richard d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the summe of certain sermons upon genes : . . vvherin not only the docrine of justification by faith is asserted and cleared , and sundry arguments for iustification before faith , discussed and answered , but also the nature and the meanes of faith , with the imputation of our sins to christ , and of christs righteousness to us are briefely explained and confirmed . preached at dorchester in new-england by richard mather teacher to the church there . and now by him published at the earnest request of sundry well-affected and godly christians . printed by samuel green at cambridg in new-england . the authors preface to the reader . christian reader , when these sermons were first preached in the ordinary course of my ministry on going forward on the book of genesis , i had no thoughts at that time that they should ever have been f●…rther published in this way that now tho●… seest . but sundry godly christians & brethren having heard them delivered in preaching , and thinking they might afterwards also bee usefull for the benefit of themselves and their familyes if they might enjoy them printed , which they did very much desire , they therefore came to mee with a serious & solemn request that i would further and fulfill their earnest desires in this thing . against which motion though i alledged many objections , 〈◊〉 they still continued to desire as formerly . wherupon at the last , considering with my self that god who hath the hearts of all men in his hands might in mooving their hearts to such a desire have some farther ●…ntent ther●… for his own glory and the good of some or other of his servants , then i at the first did apprehend , or could perceive , i therupon began to consider further of the motion : and having perused & revised some brief notes which i had by me , of those sermons , i imparted to them a copye therof , yet with renuall of my former objections against printing , and proposing to their consideration whether it might not be best to satisfie themselves with that writte●… copie , and to let the printing alone . but their desires continued as afore ; and thence it commes to pass that the sermons are committed to publick view . which i thus aquaint the reader withall partly as some excuse for my self that i would publish such plain stuff as here is cont●…ned , in such a knowing and criticall time as this is ; for the importunity of request hath compelled me thereto : and partly that if any sober and honested hearted christian receive any benefit here●…y hee may know to whom he is indebted for the same , even chiefly to the lord as the principall author of all good , and then unto those godly christians who have been the instruments of bringing these sermons to be publick , which had it not been through their importunity , had never seen the light in this way . i deny not but sundry of the things here treated of , viz the grace of faith , justification by faith , and the imputation of christs righteousness unto justification , are mayn and principall points of christian religion , and such as that the ignorance of them or erroneous apprehentiōs about them can not but be very perilous : in which respect it is the more needfull that the people of god should be established in the belief & love of the truth concerning such points as these are . and for this cause i the rather yeilded to publish what here thou seest , ( being so importuned therunto as i have said ) if i might by the blessing of christ afford any little help to the end afore mentioned . and so much the rather , because satan that enemy of all truth & father of lyes hath endevoured not only of old but of late also , to corrupt the mindes of many people touching these things . heretofore and still amongst the popish sort he would perswade to an opinion of justification by works , and not by faith only . and now when the perniciousness of that tenent begins to be more generally discerned , he labours to undermine the truth another way , instilling into the minds of some a conceit that they may be justified not only without their own works but also without the grace of faith . and because it would be too gross at the first to cry down all use of faith which the spirit of god in the holy scripture doth so abundantly urge & extoll , and that therfore such a conceit at the first would hardly take amongst them that have any acquaintance with the scripture , therfore the crafty enemy allowes for the time that there may be some use of faith about this matter of justification , viz : to know or be assured by it of justification preceding , and that though we are justified indeed afore faith , yet wee did not know it afore , but now do know it by faith . a palpable perverting of the truth of god plainly and plenteously laid down in his word , especially in pauls epistles wherin you shall never read of knowing by faith that we are justified without faith , or before faith : such language is a stranger in gods book , and amongst the oracles of god , and far discrepant from the form of wholsom words . wherin nothing is more frequent then that we are justified by faith . now to turn this word , wee are justified , into this meaning , wee know that we are justified , in which sence it will be hard to find it so much as once used in any place where justification by faith is spoken of , is a manifest metamorphosing of the words of the holy one , and a wresting of the scripture ( i fear ) unto mens own destruction : pet : . . but do you think that satan will rest here ? it is rather to be seared , if this delusion takes place a while , this use of faith which is yet allowed , will be denyed also . for some are already come to this to deny that there are any gifts or graces at all in the hearts of justified persons . which if it were true , then there is no faith in them : and if there be no faith , then it is not by faith that men do know their justification ; for how can they know it by that which is not ? and ●…o , as now they deny that men are justified by faith , so when & where this other delusion takes place , to deny all inherent graces , there men must hold that justification may not only be , but also be known without faith , or else not be known at all . a lamentable & dreadfull issue wherat satan drives , and whereto this opinion tends , if god do not in mercy prevent . and because this is a time , wherin not only these but many other unsound opinions , and some of them very pernicious are scattered abroad , therfore i hope the godly reader will bear with me , if out of my unseyned desire of his salvation and of the honour of jesus christ and his truth , i shall here propound some sew helps for a christians preservation in the truth from the prevailing power of errour . and let not this be thought a needless bu●…siness , nor let any that loveth his own salvation give way to that conceit to think there is no danger in opinions whatever a man shall hold : for though all opinions be not alike dangerous . yet there is none but it hath danger in it , especially if it touch the foundation , and so much the more danger by how much the less suspected . if it were not so , why doth the holy ghost so ●…ten exhort us & command us to beware of being seduced & beguiled with errours , and with them that teach them ? math. . . & . , . & . , . mark . . & . . eph. . . phl. . . col : . . heb. . . 〈◊〉 . . ●…ude . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . , . ●…ohn , , . in which places & many more we are bidden to beware of false prophets , and of their doctrine , to take heed that no man deceive us , to take heed what we hear , and that we be not led away with the errour of the wicked and with every wind of doctrine , and fall from our owne stodfastness , that we contend for the faith , and not believe every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of god , and many such like . all which warnings so frequent and so serious the lord would not have given , but that he knowes erronious opinions are dangerous , and we in danger to be beguiled therwith , yea and to have our soules to be subverted by them as the scripture speaketh . acts . . for which cause also it is that heresies are reckoned up amongst adulterers , idolatries , murthers , drunkenness , and other damning works of the flesh that exclude men out of heaven gal. . , , . and are expressly called damnable heresies , and the wayes therof pernicious wayes pet. . , . where then are they that think it no great matter what opinions a man do hold , or what judgment he is of in matters of religion , and that no man should be much misliked for such matters which they call conscien●…e , so long as he is not otherwise culpable in his conversatiō for scandal in practise , such as are murthers , whordoms , drunkenness , theevery & the like ? which is as if one should say , there are some works of the flesh which exclude out of heaven , and subvert the soul , for which a man should not be misliked though he be known to walk in them , but may have the repute & reward of a right good and honest man notwithstanding . which opinion of the little danger of opinions , as in it self it is very erronious , so it is one thing that makes way for other errours to be more readily entertained & persisted in , satan having by this means perswaded the sonns and daughters of men to believe that errours have not much danger in them , & hence they are not much afraid of them . wheras if they did stedfastly believe and seriously consider what the scripture teacheth , how that by such things mens souls are subverted , and themselves in danger to be excluded out of gods kingdom , and to be destroyed , they would then be more caucious & considerate what doctrines they entertain , and the more afraid of perishing in errour : but through want of this consideration , corrupt and pernicious apprehentions do so greatly abound . otherwise , how could it be that men should so easily be brought to deny the sacred trinity , the godhead of jesus christ , the imputation of his righteousness unto justification , the divine authority of the holy scriptures , the immortality of the soul , the morality of the sabbath , so making all dayes alike , yea to deny not only the fourth commandement , as papists have done the second , but also to deny the whole law of god to be any rule of life to a believer , holding also that god sees no sin in his children , that sin hath god for the authour of it , that there is no election , but an universal redemption by christ and free will in man , and that men regenerate and justified may fall away , that there are no churches , ministry or ordinances of any necessary use in these dayes to some christians , but that men may attain to such attainmēts as to have no need therof , but may live without them or be above them . not to mention any more of such like tenents which in these dayes do too much abound . dreadfull things you may be sure if they be persisted in , and yet too many there be that do believe them and vent them , to the extream hazard of their own and others soules . and therfore that the godly christian may be the help of christ be preserved from these & all other whether soul-destroying or soul-endangering doctrines , let him carefully make use of these few helps . let a man be sure that his profession of religion be in sincerity & truth , that he may not only have a form of godliness , but the truth and power of it , and then he shall surely be preserved from destroying errours . for though false teachers may deceive many , and shew signes & wonders for that end , yet it is not possible that they should finally deceive the elect and chosen ones of god math : . . or will the sheep of christ harken to the voyce of a stranger , but will flee from him john . , . and that saying iohn . . they went out from us , but were not of us , and as it sheweth that apostates in their best times were but hypocrites , so it also sheweth that they who are but hypocrites are like enough in the end to become apostates . stabillity and settledness of mind & judgment in the truth is also a means to be preserved from being seduced . for it is children that are tossed too and fro & carryed about with every wind of doctrine ephe. . . wheras if the heart be stablished with grace , a man shall not so easily be carryed about with divers and strange doctrines heb : . . no , it is the ignorant and unstable that wr●…st the scriptu●…s to their own destruction pet. . . when there comes a stream or flood of waters on the earth , trees and houses that are rooted and well grounded do stand firm , but what ever lyes loose is swept away : so the flood of errours may carry away loose and unsetled professors , but such as are rooted & grounded abide firm and stedfast . and especially it is good to be well grounded in principles of catechism ; for these points are fundamentall , & therfore are called the foundation heb : . , . and it is not often seen but that they who are led away with erroneous opinions , and vain and empty whimseys are very defective even in catechisticall points . the voice of errour is , who so is simple , let him come h●…her pro : . . and as a means of both the former , it is very needfull and to be of an humble spirit , truely abased in the sight and sence of a mans own weakness , and sinfulness , and unworthyness ; for such have a promise of being informed in the truth and wayes of god ezek : , . and of direction & preservation psal : . . babes shall have truths of god revealed to them , which are hid from the wise and prudent math : . . and the reason is , because humble souls are afraid of themselves , dare not trust to their own understanding and strength , but depend upon god & christ to preserve and teach them in the truth . wheras othe●…s trusting on themselves are therfore neer unto a fall , even because they are proud , and self-confident pro. . . & . . it is needfull for to keep a good conscience by walking in obedience to the truth and will of god , so far as a man doth know already : for to such there is a promise that they shall know what doctrine is of god and what is otherwise john . . wheras they that take pleasure in unrighteousness are in danger to be given up to believe lyes , and so to be damned thes. . , . and therfore it is said , the wise shall understand , but none of the wicked shall understand dan: . . as there are few errours in opinion b●…t they bring forth sins in practise , so sins in practise will bring errour in principles , through the judgment of the lord upon men for those their sinns . they that were led captive of errours were 〈◊〉 with divers lust●… tim: . , . men that will not do what they know , it is just if they be left in blindness and not know what to do . when a master gives light to his servants and they do no good therewith , but abuse it to cards , dice , drinking , drunkenness &c : it is just if he come and take away the light from them , and so they be left in darkness . in like sort it is a righteous thing with god to plague the poluted lives & consciences of men with giving them up to the darkness & delusions of errour . oh let all them tremble at this , that have much knowledg in their heads , but little power of grace in their hearts to walk accordingly , but by the power of unmortified lusts are so carryed away as to sin wickedly against the light of their own knowledg & consciēce in one kind or in another ; for besides the great wrath and many stripes that such may expect in another world , they may also fear that the lord may leave them to some pernicious errour or other even in this life , and thereby their damnation be the more dreadfull . a pure conscience is a good cask or vessell wherin to preserve and keep the mystery of faith . tim: . . it was desire of noveltie that overthrew our first parents , gen. . for they were well if they could have been so content ; but having an itching desire to know more then god saw meet for them hence they were overthrown . and men that have itching ears , 〈◊〉 apt to be turned from the truth and to be turned unto fables tim: . , . it argues an ill stomack , and a weak & unhealthfull constitution of body , when a man can not disgest good and wholsom food without curious sauce . in like sort it is an ill sign of a distempered soul , when the good old way of the doctrine of faith , and repentance , and the like , is not savory to a mans spirit , but he must have new notions , and quaint & unquoth matter , or else it will not go down . therfore beware of curiosity . the old way is the good way , let a man seek that and walk in it , and he shall find rest for his soul . jer : . . let a man beware of his company . he that delights to walk & talk with them that have the plague , it is no marvell if he catch infection . therfore we are bidden to shun the society of corrupt & erroneous persons , to avoid them , and have no familiarity of converse with them . rom : . . joh. . and to cease to hear the instruction that causeth to erre from the words of knowledg pro. . . we●…k christians should not be admitted to doubtfull disputations , least they be staggered rom : . . and therfore they must not go to them of their own accord : and the reason is plain , viz : because we must avoid temptations as much as lyes in us , and therfore not lead our selves into temptation , for then it may be just with god to leave us to our selves . and therfore it is not safe , especially for weak christians , to be familiarly conversant with corrupt persōs , or corrupt books , which do frequently come abroad in these dayes . lastly , it is specially usefull in this case to keep close to the scriptures , and to the means appointed of god for our right understanding of the scriptures . therfore we are bidden , go to the law & to the testimony isai . . as on the contrary , the ignorance of the scriptures is noted in the sadducees as a mayn cause of their errour , . . if a mans adversary & enemy can perswade him to throw away his weapons , he may then conceive hope of prevailing against him with more ease : and therfore it is no wonder if satan in these dayes do breed questions against the divine authority and necessary & profitable use of the scriptures as heretofore he was wont to do amongst the papists , for he knowes it will bee for his advantage against poor souls , if he can by any meanes perswade them to lay aside the sword of the spirit which is the word of god , ephe. . . but he that loves his soul must be more wise , then to harken to the counsel of satan herin . and for means for the right understanding of the scripture , one is , the church of god , and holy cōmunion therewith , another is the officers & ministers of christ therin . in respect of the former it is said that the law should go forth of s●…on , and the word of the lord from ierusalem , isai . . that is to say , from the church . and there it was , even in the sanctuary that the psalmist came to understand that which otherwise was too hard & painfull for him psal. . , . for which cause it is that he that hath an ear to hear , must hear what the spirit saith unto the churches rev : . and even to the angels themselves much of the manifold wisdom of god is made known by the church ephe. . . if therfore a man hang loose from the love of church-society , and the cōmunion of saints therin , it is no marvell if such an one be drawn away with errours , becaus the curch is the pillar & ground of truth tim: . . the apostle exhorting not to forsake the assembling of our selves together as the manner of some was , presently addeth what a dangerous thing it is to sinn willfully after wee have received the knowledg of the truth , that is , to becom apostates , heb : . , . intimating therby that where there is the former , there men are in danger of the latter , that is to say , where the hearts of men draw back from church-society , there they are in danger of apostacy . and for the ministers of christ in his church ; as it was said of old that the priests lipps should preserve knowledg , and they should seek the law at his mouth , mal. . . so in the new testament christ hath appointed officers in his church , as for other ends , so for this that wee may not be children , tossed to and fro , with every wind of doctrine , ephe. . , . that is , that wee might not bee seduced with errours , and them that teach them . in which respect it is that the eunuch confesseth he could not understand the scriptures without some to guid him , acts . , . the disciples of christ hearing of an opinion of the scribes that christ was not the messiah , because of a seeming-strong objection that elias must first come , if they had kept this objection to themselves , they might have been foyled or puzzled therewith : but they were more wise then so , they do not keep it close and only plod upon it amongst themselves , but very honestly bring it forth to their master christ jesus , and so had resolution & satisfaction ; math : . , , , . a notable example and worthy of imitation : but when men have met with new notions & apprehentions , whether from books or otherwise , contrary to the doctrine which they have received , & shall keep them in hugger mugger , so that their officers must not know them ; the ministers of christ must not be aquainted with them , this is a ready way for the endangering of their souls exceedingly ; like stollen waters which are sweet , and bread eaten in secret which is pleasant , but the dead are there , and such ghuests are in the depth of hell : pro : . , . oh therfore let every soul that would be preserved from the infection of errour , carefully look to these things , and let him cry mightily to god through iesus christ for his grace and holy spirit to preserve him in the truth , and to bless him in the use of these and ●…her good means for that end ; and then he may with comfort expect that the lord will preserve him from the evill way of errour and lyes , and will guide him in the truth & wayes of grace to his heavenly kingdom through iesus christ ; to whom ●…e all glory of service and a●…nce for ever . r. m. to the christian reader . the iustification of a sinner before god , as it is the fruit of the riches of his grace : ( ephe : . . ) so it is the root of our peace with god : rom : . . ( which passeth understanding : phil. . . ) and of our joy in the holy ghost , which is unspeakable & glorious : pet : . . this is that gift of his grace which filleth our hearts with admiration , to wonder at the abundant rich mercy of the lord in pardoning our many and mighty sinns ( micah . . ) to wonder also at the deep demerit of our sinns which could not be expiated but by the precious blood yea and soul-sufferings of the great god our saviour : yea and to wonder likewise at our baseness , and filthines , and folly , that could live so long in so dangerous & desperate a course , provoking the most high to so great anger , and our selves to the confusion of our own faces & souls . hence it is that every godly treatise tending to the discovery of this grace is wont deeply to affect the hearts of such , as ( through grace ) have part in this common salvation . amongst others of this kind ( good reader ) thou shalt find this little treatise , to be like maryes box of spikuard , which washing the paths of christ towards us ( as that did his feet ) will be fit to perfume not only the whole house of god , with the odour of the oyntment of his grace , but also thy soul with the oyl of gladnes , above what creature-comforts can afford . the manner of handling , thou shalt find to be soltd , and judicious , succinct and pithy , fit ( by the blessing of christ ) to make wise unto salvation . the presence and blessing of christ go with it , to refresh thy soul with the savour of his oyntments : in whom we rest , studious of thine edification in his grace , and peace . j. cotton . j. vvilson . boston . . . geneses . . and hee believed in the lord , and hee c●…ted it to him for righteousness . in the former verses of this chapter , is conteined a renewing of the lords promise to abram concerning his seed : in this verse is conteined the effect and fruit of that promise , how abram therupon believed in the lord ; and then the benefit that accrewed to him by that believing , how the lord accounted it to him for righteousness . for the meaning of the words ; it may be first of all demanded , vvhat is me●…t by abrams believing in the lord ? hereby is meant , not onely that hee believed the word of god to be true : for if that had been all , the lord would never have justified him by such a faith , nor have counted it to him for righteousness , as the text affirmes that he did , for the divells do so believe , and yet are farr from being justified . james . . but here by is meant morover that he also relyed upon god that had promised by an act of affiance , relyance , or dependance upon him : so much the various words may import , which are not barely hee believed the lord , but hee believed in the lord , or on the lord . besides believing is an act of the heart , rom : . . not of the head , or of the understanding only , but of the heart also : and if a man believe with his heart , then there will be a firm resting and relying on the thing promised , and on him that promiseth ; as it is said isai . . tho●… w●…lt keep him in peace , whose mind is stayed on th●… , because he tr●…steth in thee . the heart fainteth when a man belie●…eth not , gen : . . and is fixed or fastened when a man believeth in the lord psal : . , . this that is said here of abrams believing , is expounded by the apostle rom : . , , , . by hope above hope , and by not staggering at the promise through unbel●…efe . vvhat means this word he counted it to him for righteousness . it is as much as to say , the lord imputed this faith of abram . for righteousness in gods sight ; so it notes that hee was justified not by workes , but by this his faith ; and so the apostle expounds these words rom : . , , , . did abram never believe afore now ? and was hee never justified before this time ; yes doubtless long before this time : for it was by faith that hee left his own country , and kindred , and came to sojourn in the land of canaan as the land of promise : this he did by faith heb : . . which was afore this time . hee also had heard many promises of god to him & his seed afore now , both in chap : . , , . & chap : . . which doubtless he did believe . vvhy then is this mentioned now , as if he had not been a justified believer before ? one cause therof may be , because his faith was now more confirmed , hee having lately been in some pang of grief through want of children , verse , . as the disciples of christ are often said to believe upon some new confirmation of their faith , though they were believers before , joh : . . & . , . so joh : . , . and another reason ( considering the time when this is recorded ) might be this , namely , to shew that justification is never by the works of the law , but still by faith , though a man be adorned & enriched with many excellent works ; for so was abram afore this time : witness his piety in building altars , & calling on the name of the lord gen : . , . & , , . his religious care in instructing his family , those trayned ones , or catichised ones , as some render the word chap : . . his charitie , & humility that would have no falling out between lot & him , and that would condescend farr for peace sake chap : . , . and would hazard his own liberty & life to rescue lot out of captivity chap : . . his contempt of riches , and care o●… the glory of god , in refusing the goods of the king of sodom chap : . . all these were excellent vertues & good works in abram , and yet the holy-ghost tells us he was not justified by any of them but by believing . again , it is observable , that at this time abram was not circumcised ; for that ordinance was not yet appointed , till chap : . & yet now wee see he beleived in the lord , and so is justified ; to shew unto us that it was not by circumcision , nor any ceremonies of the law that he was justified , but by faith onely ; and that he might be the father of believers even amongst the geutiles , though they be not circumcised , and that righteousness might bee imputed to them also , as the apostle argueth rom : . , , . such weighty reasons there are , why abram at this time is said to believe in the lord , and to be justified therby , albeit he were a believer and justified before . this being said for the explication of the words , wee may first observe from the words this doctrine , that it is by the word & promises of god concerning salvation by christ , that men are brought to believe , or to become true believers . or thus , iustifying & saving faith is wrought by the word of the gospel , as the meanes and instrument therof . for god wee see gives forth his gracious gospel-promises unto abram , & the effect of them is this , abram therby believeth in the lord . other scriptures do testifie the same ; acts . . rom : . , . . ephe : . . acts . . genes : . , , , , . therfore is the word called the word of faith rom : . . because it is by it that faith is wrought . those three thousand in acts were brought to believe by the word & gospel of god which was preached to them by peter . regeneration is by the word , jam : . . pet : . . and the spirit is also received by the same meanes , gal : . . and therfore faith is by the word also . the reason of the consequence is , because wheresoever regeneration is wrought , and the spirit of grace is bestowed , there saving faith can net be wanting . for the explication of this point , it may first of all be demanded , what is the gospel ? it is the doctrine of salvation by christ , or of blessedness in christ , that part of the word of god , which concerneth remission of sinns , and life everlasting by christ jesus . may not faith be wrought by the law ? not by the law alone ; for the law is not of faith gal : . the law directly reveals no christ , nor any salvation for sinners , but the curse only gal : . . and inasmuch as faith cannot goe beyond the word , therfore by the law alone there can be no faith to believe any thing farther then the curse . yet nevertheless the law is of necessary use to prepare the heart for faith . for christ is the end of the law as the apostle speakes rom : . . and if so , then the law is a meanes unto christ . it shewes unto a man his sinn , rom : . . & . , . and the wrath of god deserved thereby rom : . . and herupon through the spirit of bondage , begets fear & dread in the secure heart exod : . , . rom : . . which things are requisite to the begetting of faith in christ , because without these the sinfull so●…l will never believe in , nor come to him for righteousness , as not feeling its need joh : . . rom : . . but what is the work of the gospel in the begetting of faith ? first it presents to the sinfull & lost so●…l , christ the saviour , with the worth & fulnes , that is in him ; joh : . . acts . ▪ . tim: . . secondly it encourageth the poor lost soul to come to christ , to believe on him , and to receive him in the promises of mercy math : . . joh : . . cor : . . isai . , , . & . , , , but many have the word , and yet never attain to faith , what may be the reason herof ? what is here said , is most true indeed : many heard by the apostles , yea by christ himself , and yet were never brought to believe . the reason waerof is , because the word of it self can not do it , without the work of god himself by his spirit : paul of himself is nothing , apollos nothing , nor any other minister of the gospel , bút god it is that worketh all , cor : . , , . paul preached to lidia & others , but it was the lord that opened her heart savingly to attend to what was spoken acts . . and god , as he is bound to none , so he sees cause not to give his grace to all , no nor to all that do injoy the meanes , that so they to whom his grace is given , may see themselves the more indebted for it ; and that it is not them selves , nor the word of it it self , that could ever have brought them to believe , but that god himself hath done it of his free grace . math : . . acts . but if the word be the means of faith , what shall become of infants , idiots , & deaf people that cannot make use of the means ? the doctrine speakes only of the ordinary & usuall way . as for these that are spoken of , the lord can work in them by other meanes , either by the sight of the eye , as in such as can read ; or if all outward means fa●… , ●…e can work by his spirit alone in the heart and soul inwardly . if any ask , what should be the reason that when god worketh faith , he should ordinarily & usually do it by his word , and not otherwise ? the answer is , that his wisdom hath so appointed & seen meet , and therwith wee should rest our selves contented & satisfied it is his pleasure to save men by preaching . cor : . . and to create the fruit of the lips to be peace to the soul isai . . therfore , the case of them that want the word of the gospell must needs be miserable & lamentable . for there can be no salvation without christ acts . . john . . nor without faith in christ john . , . heb : . . and ordinarily there can be no faith without the gospel , but by it , rom : . , . and therfore where this word is wanting , there the people are in a perishing condition pro : . . and millions of people there are in this condition , having none to speak unto them out starrs , & trees , and the great book of the creatures , which is not sufficient for salvation , nor for saving faith ; and therfore such people are without christ , and without god in the world eph : . . comming into the world & know not wherfore , and go out of the wor●…d again and know not whither . it were well if there were an heart in us to bewayl the case of such people ; for their misery might have been ours , and our mercies theirs . they that have the gospel , have great cause to prize it , and to be very thankfull for it , as for a great ●…le●…sing , inasmuch as it is the meanes of faith , and so consequently of salvation . if wee shall despise it or slight it as the israelites did manna , or as little children who do but play with their meat , and kick it down under their feet , it may then be just with god to take it away , and that will be a dolefull and most heavy judgment ; and is often threatned as such . see amos . . luke . . john . , . rev : . . if the word be the means of faith , then it behoovs all them who enjoy the word , to take heed they do not live & dy without faith ; for the sin & judgment of such will be the more greivo●… ; even much worse then if they never had the gospel . if they had not had the word , they should have had no sin , in comparison of what now they have ; but now they have no cloak for their sin . john . . and therfore the judgment & condemnation of such people will be so exceeding just & dreadfull , that the condition of tyre & sidon , and of sodom & gomorah shall be more tollerable , math : . , , . and hee counted it to him for righteousness . ] hee , that is the lord , who was mētioned before ; counted , that is , imputed , or reckoned , for this word is sometime englished by one of these words , and sometime by another , as may appeare by viewing rom : . , , . gall : . . iam : . . i●… , that is , this faith of his , this believing in the lord ; for righteousness ▪ that is unto righteousness ; that is , that by this he might attain righteousness , or stand righteous and justified in the sight of god . vvhether doth not this text prove that the object of justifying faith is not christ the promised messiah , or the promise of mercy in christ ; but what ever god revealeth ? and that the act of faith as it justifieth , is not of the will in receiving christ , or adhering to christ , but only an assent of the understanding ? it proveth it not ; for abrams faith had respect unto the promised seed , in whom all nations should be blessed ; and so runneth the promise chap : . & . . this seed must need include the messiah specially , as being the head of all the seed that are blessed ; and so much is plainly taught in gall : . . where the seed to whom the promise is made , is plainly affirmed to be christ : and if it signifie christ , then doubtless the head , & not the members only . the promise which abram believed was the gospel gal. . . now what is the gospel , but the doctrine or glad tidings of salvation by christ ? that saying john . . that abram rejoyced to s●… christs day , doth shew that christ was the object of abrams faith . now from the words , he counted it to him for righteousness , wee have occasion to consider of three things concerning that great article of faith , our justificatiō . the efficient cause therof ; which is the lord . the instrumentall cause , and that is faith , or believing . the formall cause , which is accounting , reckning , or imputing . the first of these may be considered in this cōclusion or doctrine . that it is the lord himself that doth justifie : or that is the efficient cause of our justification . rom : . . & . . . gal : . isai . . reason , justification is a judiciary act , the work of a iudge pronouncing sentence of absolution upon a man ; and this appears by this , because it is opposed to condemn , as rom : . . math : . . and so it differs from sanctification , which is to make a man really holy by changing his qualityes , wheras justification makes only a relative change in a man in respect of state , from a state of guiltiness to a state of absolution & clearing judicially . now it belongs to god alone to be the iudg of all the world gen. . . psa. . . & . . heb : . . cor. . and therfore justificatiō being the act & work of god as a judg , doth belong to god only . justification either consists in , or conteins in it , the forgiveness of sins , and not imputing of iniquity ; rom : . , . and therfore inasmuch as god only forgives sin isai . . psal : . , . cor . . mark . . it must need , bee that god only doth justifie . therfore a man can not justifie himself . papists teach that a man by his works may justifie himself with that which they call the second justification , and wherin they place the merrit of eternal life . but the scripture makes man passive in his justification , and that this work is wrought by god himself , and by him only . so that what christ spake of honouring of himself iohn . . may well be applyed to the matter in hand , that if a man iustifie himself , his iustification is nothing . hence it followeth , that justification once obteyned , can not be lost . a man once justified shall never loose his justified estate , nor fall from it . for being the work of god , wee may say of it as solomon saith in another case , eccles. . . it must be for ever . when god hath once justified a man , he will say as pilate of his writing , what i have written , i have written ; so may the lord say , whom i have justified , i have justified , & it shall not be recalled ; according to that jer. . . their sinns & iniquities i will remember 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : their sinns may be sough , for , but they shall never be f●…nd whom i have once pardoned , and forgiven ier. . . iustification is one of those gracious gifts of god , which are without repentance rom. . . and ●…f god do justifie , it must need ; be a great s●… for men to be censorious in judging the servants of god , & to pass rash & hard judgment against them ; a●… to judg them to be d●…ed hypoc●… , vaya-glorious persons , the troublers of israel , and the like ; the psalmist coūted it a heinous thing , to condemn the generation of gods children psal. . . and they that judg others with unjust and rash judgment , may expect to be judged themselves math. . . for those whom god doth justifie , it is not for men to condemn them , except they would be cross & co●…trary unto god . but if god do justifie his servants , what need they to bee much troubled , though the world do censure & condemn them ? it is the judgment of god that must stand ; and he will not condemn them , but hath already absolved & cleared them . which made the apostle to say , with me it is a small thing to be judged of you , or of mans judgment cor : . . and the like comfort doth belong to every faithfull servant of god , inasmuch as they are justified by the lord , what ever men may say or judg of them . it is god tha●… justifieth , who is he that condem●…th ? rom : . . let us not then content our selves to have men to justifie us : for though they excuse us , say well & think well of us , all this is nothing if the lord do not so also , but the contrary . men are apt to think all well if others do judg well of them ; but especialy if professors of religion , and the faithfull do approve of them , then they care for no more . but these should remember that it is god that justifieth , and therfore the judgment of men should not be rested in , as touching our spiritual estates before god ; this being considered withall , that a iudas may be no worse thought of by the true hearted disciples of christ , then themselves , and yet in very truth be no better then a divel . sometimes the coveteous , & other wicked & wretched sinners , may be approved , yea & applauded of men , though they be justly abhorred of god . psal. . . & . . content not our selves , to be just in our own eyes , or to justifie our selves ; for alas what will this avail us , sith it is god that must justifie , or else wee shall never be justified indeed , whatever wee may conceive of our selves . the pharises were men that justified themselves before men , but god knew their hearts ; and our saviour tells them that things might be beautifull in the sight of men , and yet be abominable in the sight of god , luke . . but the h●…ly apostle was otherwise minded , who would not justifie his own self , knowing that he that judged him was the lord . cor : . . it is our wisdom therfore to seek ūto god in christ for this benefit ; for he that is in himself a sinner , his maine work lyes with god in heaven , to seek at his hands the gracious benefit of remission , and justification . for who can clear a man but the judg ? who can forgive the debt but the creditor ? the next conclusion , or doctrine that these words afford is this , that , it is by faith , by the grace of believing , that men c●… to bee justified , or to be accounted righteous in the sight of god . wee see abram believed in god , and it was imputed to him for righteousness : which example is often mentioned by the apostles , to shew that justification is by faith only , and not by works ; rom : . . , . gall : . . jam. . . and as it was with abram , so is it with all the children of abram , that they are all justified by the same meanes , even by faith in iesus christ : rom. . , , . & . , . & . . gal. . . & . , , . philip . . . heb : . . here it will be needfull to shew how it is that wee are justified by faith ; for it is so plentifully & expressly witnessed in scripture that justification is by faith , that it were gross ignorance or impudence to deny it . but in what sence this is to be understood , and in what manner this is done , there the apprehensions of men do very much vary . for some help therfore to the clearing of this point , observe these propositions following . faith doth not justifie as it is a work or vertue in us . reas : all works of ours are excluded in this business , so that faith & works are constantly opposed in the matter of justification ; rom. . . gall . . . and therfore faith must not here be considered as a work of ours , for then it must be excluded as all other works must . reas : faith is so considered in our justification , as that it may stand with free grace ; rom : . . ephes. . . therfore it must not be considered as a work of ours , because grace & works are opposite , and can not stand together rom. . , . reas : wee can not be justified but by that which is exact , entire & perfect righteousness ; for god must be just in justifying rom. . . but how could he be so , if he should justifie us otherwise then by a righteousness which is exact & perfect ? his judgment is according to truth rom. . . so that he will not cleare the guilty ex●…d : . . now our faith is imperfect , and not so exact & perfect as it ought to be mark . . luke . . pet. . . and therfore by a faith as a vertue , or work of ours , we can not be justified . fa●… 〈◊〉 not justifie properly , as if the very act of believing , ips●… credere , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} were the matter of our righteousness , or the very thing by which we stand righteous in the sight of god . reas : the righteousness by which we are justified is of faith , by faith , through faith , phili . . . rom : . . and therfore it is not our faith it self . reas : the righteousness wherby we are justified is not our own phil. . . rom : . . but our faith is our own , though wrought in us by the holy-ghost . therfore we have these expressions in scripture , his own faith , thy faith , my faith , hab : . . jam : . . reas : the thing that must justifie us , must be a perfect righteousness , as was shewed before ; else how shall god be just in justifying us therby ? but our faith as was shewed afore is imperfect . in this the tenent of the arminians is more injurious to the lord , then that of the papists ; for the papists hold , & that truely , that god justifies by perfect righteousness ; only herin is their great errour , that they think this perfect righteousness may be found in our selves , in our works , or our faith &c : but the arminians would have god to justifie man without any perfect righteousness at all , but to accept his imperfect faith in steed therof . reas : . jesus christ in his obedience is our righteousness ier : . . cor : . . cor : . . rom : . . & . . and therfore to make faith it self our righteousness is injurious to christ , as placing faith in christs room , and so making faith to be our christ . faith doth justifie only relatively , in respect of its object christ iesus , or instrumentally as the hand that receiveth christ and his righteousness . as a mans hand may be said to feed him , because it receiveth the meat , or to cloath him , because it receiveth his apparell , or to inrich him , because it receiveth a pearl of great value , so a mans faith is said to justifie him , because it receiveth christ , & the righteousness of christ . and indeed what ever is done by faith in this & such like matters of our salvation , all is done with referēce to christ , and as faith is the instrument that receiveth christ , and no otherwise . and therfore what things are said to be done by faith , wee shall find they are still said to be done by christ . for instance , wee are justified by faith , rom : . . gal. . , . but wee are justified by christ isai . . eternall life is by faith iohn . , . but it is by christ iohn . , . wee are saved by faith , eph : . . but wee are saved by christ , iohn . . math : . . wee live by faith , hab : . . gal. . . but wee live by christ , iohn . . & . . forgiveness of si●…s is by faith , acts . . & . . but it is by christ , acts . . ephe : . . in like sort when faith is said to be imputed unto righteousness , wee must understand it that christ & his righteousness is imputed . but now , as faith can do nothing but with reference to christ , so christ will do nothing in this buisiness of justifying a sinner , but by faith . but as it is said acts . . his name , through faith in his name had healed the man that had been lame , so it may be said christ & his righteousness , through faith in him , & his righteousness doth justifie the sinner . for these grounds are certain , & cannot be denyed , that god doth not justifie any without righteousness , but by & for a righteousness , and such as one as is entire & perfect , pro : . . exod : . . rom : . . . . that this perfect righteousness is not to be had in our selves , rom : . . psal. . . that this perfect righteousness is in christ , and not elsewhere , jer : . . isai . , . cor : . . rom : . , . that this righteousness of christ cannot justifie us , till it be communicated & applyed , and so be made ours ; even as meat doth not feed a man , till he take it & eat it , apparell doth not warm a man till he receive it & put it on , a pearl though of never so much value , doth not enrich a man till he receive it , and have it in possession as his own . faith is the hand & instrument for receiving of christ & his righteousness ; iohn . . eph. . . and by this meanes or in this way wee are justified by faith , and not otherwise . therfore in gal : . , . wee find that to be justified by faith , and to be justified by christ are synonymaes , that is , of the same signification ; for that which in the one verse is called justification by faith , is in the other called justification by christ . but christ is the object of love & of other graces , as well as of faith ; why then should faith justifie in respect of its object , any more then love or other graces ? because faith is appointed of god in the covenant of grace to this office ; iohn . . acts . . which can be said of no other grace . and there is good reason why faith should have this office , even because faith is that which gives all to christ , & to gods free grace in him , for therfore is it of faith , that it might be by grace rom : . . ephe : . . it being the very propertie , & ( ●…s i may say ) the ingenie of faith , to bring nothing of its own for a mans justification , but to come naked & emptie unto christ , to receive all from him , and from gods free grace in him . it is ●…y faith alone that wee are justified . justification is not only by faith at the first , but alwayes by faith , as long as a man lives . so that though a man be furnished with never so many excellent vertues , graces , duties , services , &c : yet it is not by any of them , nor all of them , but still by faith & by faith only , that he must be ●…ustified in gods sight . for which purpose this example of abram is very observable & convincing ; for abram ( as was observed before ) had afore this time done many excellent services , in leaving his kindred and country at gods command , in building altars , and calling on the name of the lord where ever he came , in yielding to his inferiour lot for peace sake , in rescuing him out of captivity , with the perill or hazard of his own liberty & life , in his contempt of riches offered to him by the king of sodom , &c : yet after all this the holy-ghost placeth his justification in none of these things , but only in his believing . if abram had had no works then it might have been said he was justified by faith through want of works ; but sith he abounded with store of excellent works , and yet is justified by faith , we may conclude that justification is not by faith & works , much less by works alone , but by faith only . so paul tells of himself phil. . , , . that for time past he did count all things loss for christ , and saith he for the present i do so also , and for time to come , even when christ shall come to judgment , i then desire to be found in christ , not having my own righteousness , but that which is by the faith of christ . hence it is said , wee are justiffied freely by his grace ; rom : . . which two words do shew that all works are excluded : and so works are expressly excluded , that faith alone may be established , rom : . . galla . . . ephe. . . if justification be by faith , then it can not be by works , not by any tighteousness of our own , either inherent , or actuall , either inward vertues & graces , or outward dutyes of obedience , the reason is , because faith & works are opposite in this matter , and can not stand together ; rom : . . gal. . . and the scripture plainly teacheth that justification by woks is impossible . acts . . rom : , . they then are greatly deceived that think a man may have the righteousness of justification without faith , and that faith is of no use in this matter but only to assure a man of his justification as already past & done ; wheras the truth is , justification is not afore faith , but by faith , viz : as by an hand or instrument to receive the righteousness of christ , which righteousness of christ , is the matter that being received doth justifie , and faith the hand to receive it . that there is no actuall justification of a man afore faith whether from eternity , or otherwise , may be farther cleared by these reasons : reas : justification is after vocation , or effectuall calling , for whom he called , them he justified rom : . . and if so , then it is after faith , because faith is wrought in vocation , as being the answer of the soul to the call of god , calling the soul to come to god in christ , wherunto when the soul doth answer & come , ( as it alwayes doth when the calling is savingly effectuall ) this answer , this comming is faith jer : . . faith being wrought in calling , and calling being be●…ore justification , it must needs be that faith is before justification . reas : faith hath the same place in justification as the israelites looking on the brazen serpent had in their healing , joh. . , . now they were not first healed , and then must look up to the serpent & see what it was that had healed them ; but first they must look up to the serpent , and so therby be healed numb : . , , . to teach that wee must first look up to christ by the eye of a lively faith , and then & therby be iustified from our sinns . and accordingly the prophet tells us that in the lord there is righteousness , and strength , wherby wee may be justified & saved ; but we are bidden to look unto hi●… , & then wee shall be justified & saved therby . isai . , , . reas : if a man be justified afore faith , then a man may be in state of iustification & in state of condemnation both at once ; for afore a man have faith , he is in state of condemnatiō , & the wrath of god abtdeth on h●… , iohn . , . but these two states are so opposite & contrary , that it is not possible that a man should be in both at once . reas : afore a man be a believer , the spirit of god witnesseth to a man that he is not justified , but the contrary ; for at that time it convinceth the soul to be in a state of bondage , and therupō fills it with fear , rom : . . now if a man were justified afore , this fear were needless , this bondage were unjust , and this witness of the spirit not true , which were horrible to think . reas : if a man be not justified by faith , but afore it , and that faith doth only declare & assure unto a man that he is justified already , then a man may as well be said to be justified by any other grace as by faith , and so there will be no difference between faith and any other grace in this matter of justification ; the reason is , because other graces may declare a man to be justified , as signes & fruits : all the graces of sanctification do that . but the apostle makes a great differēce between faith & other graces in this matter , teaching that we are not justified by any of them , but are justified by faith . the question was not whether good dutyes commanded in the law , did declare a man to be justified , for that the apostle would never have denyed , but here was the question , whether they did actually justifie a man as instruments of his justification , and this the apostle doth constantly deny , and yet every where ascribes this office unto faith . reas : the scripture expressly witnesseth of believers , that there was a time when they were in a state of wrath , & condemnation , without christ , and without god in the world , in the same state that others were that should never in●…erite the kingdom of heaven , not a people , not beloved , not having obteined mercy , and many the like , eph : . , , , . cor : . , , . rom : . , . pet. . . now how all this should be , and yet at this very time they be in a state of justification also , is altogether inconceivable & impossible . reas : all that are justified do doubtless please god , but without futh it is imp●…sible to please him , heb : . . and therfore without faith it is impossible to be justified . reas : justification is a benefit afforded only to them that are in christ , rom : . . iohn . . but no man is in christ without faith , but by faith , ephe : . . rom : . , . they that were without faith , were w●…thout christ also , ephes : . . and therfore no man is actually justified without faith . reas : to say that we are ●…ustified from eternity hath many great absurdities , or inconveniences in it , and therfore it may not bee admitted . for , then the people of god never were in a state of sin ; for to be in a state of sin , and to be justified from sin , are contrary . but certeyn it is , the time was when the elect were in a state of sin , of misery , of curse , as the scriptures do abundantly testifie , ezek : . , , . &c : rom : . , . &c : & . , . tit : . . and by verse , , , . of that chap : the of the epistle to titus , it appeareth that iustification came afterward in time . but this opinion of iustification from eternity takes away , or denyes that ever there was any state of sin ; and theupon all humiliation for such a state is closely taken away also , and made needless ; for why should a man lay to heart his misery by reason of such a state , and lament it , bewayl it , be greived for it , if there never was any such state , but that he was in a justified estate from eternity ? then we were guilty of sin , & condemnation , from eternity : and this much more , because iustification is from a guilty & condemned estate : and the terminus a qno , must needs be before the terminus ad quem , the state from which , must needs be a●…ere the state to which . then iustification is the same with election or predestination , which in scripture are made distinct benefits , rom : . , . then iustification is without respect to the merits & obedience of christ ; the reason is , because the eternall actions of god , as election & predestination , are not for christs righteousness & obedience , but christ himself is the fruit of our election . if from eternity we be in a justified estate , then we may say ( as gal : . last . ) that christ dyed in vayn ; for what need was there of any atonement to be made by the righteousness & death of christ , when by this opinion wee were in a justified estate before ? then we may say wee are gloryfied from eternity ; the reason is , because gloryfication doth immediatly follow iustification , rom : . . titus . . now to say we are gloryfied from eternity , is to excuse hymeneus & phyletus , in that they said the resurection was past already , tim : . , . so many & great absurdities are in it , to say that wee are iustified from eternitie . reas : if wee be iustified by faith , then not before faith ; if abram believed , & therupon was accoūted righteous , then neither was he , nor can any other be accounted righteous before believing : but the former of these is abundantly restified in the scriptures of truth , rom : . ; , . & . , , , . galla : . . and therfore the latter is true also . we may be iustified before faith , & yet be said to be justified by faith , namely , declaratively , faith declaring & assuring to us that wee are justifyed before ; we are said to be iustified by faith , because we know by faith , that we are iustified . this cannot be the meaning of that saying we are justified by faith : for , then we may in that sence be said to be iustified by any other grace as well as by faith , yea by works of grace as well as by faith , because these are evidences of our iustification : witness iohn . , , . & . , , . james . . &c : for example , by love to the bretheren , wee know wee are translated from death to life , and so are iustified ; shall any man now say that wee are iustified by love to the brethren ? that were directly to contradict the scripture , which saith we are not iustified by works . and yet if to be iustified , mean no more but to know we are iustified , then we may say indeed that we are iustified by works , which the apostle doth so plainly & largely gainsay . and therfore to be justified by faith hath a farther meaning , then only that we are iustified . by the like reason we might say that the world was created by faith , which were a very absurd saying : and yet it is most true that by faith we understand or kn●… that the world was created by the word of god , heb : . . and by the like reason wee might say that wee are elected by faith ; for by saith wee may understād and know our election . the sum●… is , though by faith we know our election , & the creation , yet it were an improper speech , and such as the scripture never useth , to say we are elected by faith , or that the world was created by faith : and in like sort , it we●…e an improper speech , and such as the scripture would never have used , to say wee are iustified by faith , if no 〈◊〉 had been ment hereby , but only the knowledg of our iustificat●…on . god just●… the ungodly , rom : . . and therfore such as have not faith . that doth not follow . because that very text saith these ungodly ones d●…d 〈◊〉 , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . this exp●…sition of the word 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 god i●…tifieth , to 〈◊〉 it of unbelievers , is d●…tly 〈◊〉 to the scripture , which say that god iustifieth those that do 〈◊〉 and have ●…aith , rom : . , , . acts . . and none others john . . the ungodly one in this text , is one that hath not fulfilled the righteousness of the law ; and so to justifie the ungodly , is no more but to justifie without the works of the law or not by works , which may be , and yet not without faith . if wee shall extend the wo●…d further , then we must not take that saying in sensu composito , but in sensu diviso , that is , not that he is now when god ju●…es 〈◊〉 so ●…godly as to be without faith , but that he was so heretofore , thou●…h now god hath given him more grace . as when it is said , the la●…e man shall leap as an hart , and the dumb sing , the blind s●… , & the deaf hear , isai . . luke . . no man must herupon imagin , that they did these things while they so remayned ; for that was utterly imposible , that a lame man should leap as an hart whilest he remained lame , or a dumb man sing whilest he still remayned dumb ; and so of the rest : but the meaning is , they that were once lame , dumb , deaf , should afterward , be inabled to leap , sing , see , & hear ; these acts should be performed by such as had been such as is mentioned , though now they were not such . wee may as well conclude from these texts , that blind men may see , while they continue blind , & so of the rest , as t●… conclude from the text in hand , that an ungodly man , an unbeliever 〈◊〉 justified of god , whilest he is an ungodly man , an unbeliever . when some rich man marryeth a poor beggar , we say he married one that had scarce raggs to her back ; but the meaning is not , that he married her in her raggs , but bestowed on her fitting apparrell , and so married her . so god justifies the ungodly , such as had neither faith , nor any other grace ; but the meaning is not that he justifies them in their unbelief , but bestows the grace of faith upon them , and then iustifies them . in believing we do not believe an untruth , but a truth , and therefore it is a truth that we are iustified afore we do believe . it is true indeed , that a man must be iustified before hee can rightly believe himself to be iustified , but not before he believe on christ for iustification , or unto righteousness . a man can not rightly believe that he 〈◊〉 iustified , before he be iustified , for then he should therin believe a falshood : nor can he be iustified afore he do believe on ch●…st for iust●…cation . the scripture speakes little of man , believing himself to be iustified , but much of bebelieving on christ that he might be justified , gal : . . rom : . . now to believe on christ , is not an assurance or perswasion of being iustified already , but is that act of the soul , of the will especially , wherby a man comes to christ , receiveth christ , relyes on christ , chuseth christ &c : that in him he might be justified and saved . and when this is done , then there is room for that other belief , or perswasion of being iustified already , but not before ; according to that ephe. . . after ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise ; to beleive a mans self to be in a good and iustified estate , afore he have received christ by faith , what is it , but the vain presumption & carnal confidence of poor deluded soules ? as if a woman should perswade her self of title & interest to a wealthy mans estate , & yet was never married to him . therfore afore a man can believe aright that he is justified , he must first be united and married to christ , by believing on him , and then & therby he shall be justified indeed , and so he may safely believe his justification . all gods people were justified when christ made satisfaction for their sinns by his death & resurrection , rom : . . h●…e was raysed again for our ●…stification , now this was above years agoe , and therfore long afore our believing . it is true , the death & resurrectiō of christ was long afore our believing , and afore we were born into the world . but what shall be said to abram , isaak , jacob , david , and the rest of the saints , that lived long afore the incarnation of christ ? it can not be denyed but that they believed afore the death & resurrectiō of christ . and so , if all gods people be actually justified at the time when christ suffered & rose again , then it must follow , that though some of them be justified long afore they do believe , yet others have believed long afore they were justified . and so by this conceit , wee shall have severall wayes for the justification of believers , or the people of god , some without faith & a long time afore it , & others not without faith , but long time after it . but the scripture knoweth but one way for the salvation of gods people , whether they lived in the times afore the comming of christ in the flesh , or since , and that is by the lord jesus christ , and faith in him . acts . . john . . the vertue & value of his death and obedience being such , as that it was su●…ficient for the justification and salvation of all true believers , even from the foundation of the world , rev : . . and therfore in the times before his incarnation and passion as well as since . as for rom : . . the meaning therof is no more but this , that our justification is purchased and merited by the death & resurrection of christ , which it may be , & yet not actually applyed till such time as we come unto him by believing . for the apostle tells us rom : . . that as wee are made sinners , by the sinn of adam , so wee are made righteous by the obedience of christ . now how are we made sinners by the sinn of adam ? hee purchased or merited for us this lamentable patrim●…ny by his disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit , but yet this is never actually applyed to us till such time as wee become actually his children , and have a being from him by natural generation . in like sort , christ by his obedience hath merited & purchased for us this blessed portion of righteousness and life ; but yet this is not actually applyed to us till such time as we come to have actually a spirituall being in him , which is done by spiritual regeneration , and by faith which is wrought therin . garments may be fit to cover us & prepared for us , before we bee clothed with them : but that we may be actually clothed with them , we must first receive them & put them on . and one may as well say , and as truely , when gar●…ents are once prepared & made , that now he is clothed & warmed with them , though yet he have never put them on , as to say , because christ hath purchased justification for us , by his death & resurrection , that therfore we then were actually justified , though yet wee have never believed , nor have put him on by faith . for the farther clearing wherof , let it be observed and minded , that as the father doth accept of the sonns satisfaction , and the sonn performeth it , so both the father & the sonn do agree upon the way , the manner , and the time , when this satisfaction shall be applyed to the elect , to wit , when they come to believe on christ . the sonn did not make satisfaction , and purchase justification fo●… them , to be applyed to them whether they believed or no , or afore their believing ; nor did the father so accept it . but this was the appointment & agreement of them both , and their most wise and holy will , that it should be applyed to the elect upon their believing . so much is taught in john . . and especially in joh. . , , . where we read that christ came down from heaven to do the will of his father in saving of the ●…ect ; and that this will was ( not that any should have li●… or rig●…ess by christ without believing , no such matter , but ) that ●…soever seeth the sonn , and believeth on him , should have ●…ll l●…fe : this was the will of the father , and this was that which was performed by the sonn . and therfore that a man should actually be partaker of the justification of life ( as the apostle calls it rom : . ) by the sonn of god , afore he see the sonn & believe on him , is contrary unto the appointmēt and holy will both of the father & the sonn . if a man be justified in the sight of god when he doth believe and was not so before , then it may seem that god is changed ? this doth not follow at all , if we speak of a change in gods will . his work is changed indeed , and the state of the creature is changed , but no change at all in the will of god , because it was the will of god that the creature while in unbelief should be guilty of sin and wrath ; and when brought unto faith , should then bee justified and cleared : so that the change is in the creature , and not in the will of god . when the world was created , which before was not , god is now a creator , and was not so before , yet this change is only in the creature the object of god , will , but not in god himself , nor in his will . yet one m●…ght by this argument as well say that the world was from eternity , for fear of making a change in god , as say for that reason , that justification is from eternity : for there is as much change in god in that work of creation , as in this of justification . it is one thing m●…tare voluntatem , to change ones will , another thing velle mutationem , to will a change : of which the former is not in god , but the latter ; so that by one and the same unchangable will , he willeth to have the creature for a time in a state of wrath , and bondage to sin & satan &c : and afterward to call him out of that estate & to justifie him . a physitian appoints his patient to take one day one kind of medicine , the second day another , and the third day another ; here he wills a change in the patient without any change of will in himself . nor is there any change in god , though he w●…lls the creature in time of its unbelief to be in a state of guiltiness , & upon its believing to be be in a state of righteousness . god loves his elect before they do believe , and therfore they are justified afore . answ : this will not follow neither : for , can not god love with a love of purpose , but all the effects of that love must needs be exhibited forthwith ? then we must say the elect are sanctified before they believe , and gloryfied also , for both these are effects & fruits of his eternal love . and indeed wee may as well say that these are afore faith , and from eternity , as to say so of justification , because all these are fruits of gods love as well as justification is . yea if justification must be before faith , and from eternity , because of this eternal love of god , how then commeth it to pass that the elect do not believe from eternity ? for sure it is , this calling of the elect & drawing them to christ by faith , is a fruit of god ; everlasting love , as well as justification is , jer : . . but if notwithstanding this love of god we can yield there is a time when the elect do not believe , but are without faith , wee may as well yield t●…ere is a time when they are not justified ; for this love of the lord would prove the eternity of the one as well as of the other , both being streams from the same fountain , and fruits from the 〈◊〉 root : and yet both in time , and one of them a qualification of the other ; even as god loves his elect afore he gives christ , ( for out of that love he gave christ , joh. . . jo●…n . , . ) and yet when christ is given , he doth then bestow fur●…er 〈◊〉 o●…●…is love ; so out of his love he drawes the soul to c●…t by ●…aith , jer : . . and then makes that effect of his love a 〈◊〉 ●…or a new & ●…arther effect of his love in justification ; even as justification a qualification for gloryfication , rom : . . if justi●…cation be by faith , then it is needfull for every soul to labour in ●…e use of meanes for the attayning of this grace , because it is by this that we 〈◊〉 be justified if ever we be justified . oh let men consider what a blessed thing it is to be justified , & to have sin pardoned psal. . , and what a wofull misery it is to remain under the guilt of 〈◊〉 , to ly & dy therin , john . . and the way and meanes to ●…ave it otherwise , to escape this misery & atta●… this blessedness , is this faith in the lord jesus christ . all moral vertues will not su●…fice without this ; no nor all gifts of grace , and holy dutyes of obedience that are possible to be found where this faith is wanting . abram had many excellent vertues , and ch●…se service to god & to men , and yet he is not justified by any of them , but by 〈◊〉 only . without 〈◊〉 faith it is 〈◊〉 to please god , heb : . . or to escape his wrath & everlasting condemnation , joh. . , . mark . . what though there be righteousness and merit inough in christ ? yet this will not justifie us without faith . if a rich man would bestow some precious pearl that is worth thousands , and thousands of pounds ? this is enough indeed to make a beggar or broken-bankrupt rich , but yet not till he do receive it . even so in this case ; it is not through want of merit and righteousness in christ , but through want of faith in their own hearts , that many thousand sinners do perish everlastingly . by what means may this faith be attained ? it is good to be well informed of the misery of a man without faith , how such an one for the present lyes under the wrath and displeasure of god iohn . . heb : . . how he is uncapable of mercy math : . last . heb : . last . how the meanes of grace will never do him good , as long as he remaines in that condition heb : . . & that so continuing , his damnation is certain & unavoidable john . . mark . . if these things were well considered and thought on , it might by the blessing of god awaken secure & unbelieving sinners out of their sinfull security . it is needfull for a man to be convinced that naturally hee wants faith : john . . iohn . . as the apostle confesseth , rom : . . in me , that is in my 〈◊〉 there dwe●…eth no good th●…ng . untill a man be convinced of this , he will never seek for faith ; for who will seek for that , wherof he feels not any want ; nor will god give faith till men see & feel their want & need of it ; luke . . it is not gods manner to give grace to them that feel no want of grace ; but where he hath a purpose to bestow it , there he first convinceth the soul of its want . it is need●…ll also to be convinced of a mans want of power to believe of himself : else , if a man bring a faith of his own making , this is not faith of a right stamp , for that is a 〈◊〉 of the operation of god , col. . . therfore the soul must be convinced of that iohn . . and have the experimentall feeling of in himself , that he can not co●…e to ch●…st by believing except he be drawn ; and therfore must feelingly cry out , draw mee that i may runn af●…er thee , cant. . . yea and farther , a man must be convinced of his great & d●…ep unworthyness that ever god should wo●…k faith in him , or give the grace o●… believing to such a wretch ; and this in regard of his many & great sins , in regard of his slighting of christ , and grace many a time when it hath been offered , in regard that there are thousands others in whom god may glorifie his rich grace , and let him dy without any part or portion therin . when a man comes to this , then if god work faith in him , he will be very thankfull , and give god the glory of it ; and god loves to dispence all his favours in such a way , as may be for the glory of his free grace . ephe. . . a third meanes for the begetting of faith , is a right & serious consideration of gods promises . god hath made many great and precious promises in his word , and the pondering and musing on them , is one special meanes for the begetting & strengthening of this grace : acts . . and rom : . it is by the promises that wee are made partakers of the divine nature , peter . . it is a great mistake in some poor souls , to think that the promises are of no use , but only to comfort them that are believers already , yea and such as know themselves so to bee ; and therfore these as long as they discern not saith in themselves , they dare medle with no promises , but lay them aside and let them ly by , as things that do not concern them , but only concern others ; wheras one use of the promises is for the begeting of faith . and therfore when we can not bring hope & faith to the promise , we must go to the promise for them . therfore thou that art full of doubting and feares , do thou seriously consider the promise , weigh it , think much on it , pray over it , that god would give thee an heart to believe ; and if it will not bee at the first , think again , weigh it again , pray again , &c : and by much veiwing & gazing on it . god may work faith in thee , though thou hadst none before , as by much beholding the glory of the lord in the glass of the gospel , wee are changed into the same image , cor. . . this may well be meant by that hiding of the treasure , math : . , . namely that he hides the promises of mercy in the gospel , in the bottom of his heart and soul , by serious meditation and consideration of them . particularly , it is good to consider the large extent of these promises , how they are general , excluding none but such as by u●…belief do exclude themselves , as these texts do witness , joh. . . rev : . . isai . . so that no man may say , i know not whether i be elected , whether god purpose any good to me &c : for the promise is general & indefinite to whosoever will receive it by faith . the freeness also of the promise should be considered ; isai . . without mo●…y , without price . what can be more free then gift ? that we may have mercy , if wee will receive it . god was not sought unto by fallen man for mercy , but he provides a means of mercy of his own accord , of his own love , john . . which he had not needed to have done , but that it so pleased him . which may answer the objection that the soul is wont to make against believing , from its own unworthyness , as not daring to believe on christ , unless it were more holy , sanctified &c : if a king make love to a poor milk-maid , and offer himself to her , it is not for her to refuse & put off the motion till shee be a queen , for if shee match with him he will make her a queen though he do not find her one . it is usefull in this case to think much and consider seriously of him that makes the promise ; his name and blessed attributes isai . . as his power , infinitely able to do what ever we need , rom : . . tim: . . math. . . psal. . . so his truth and faithfulness , that never did nor can deceive , nor fayl to perform what ever he promiseth , heb : . . & . . so his grace & mercy , his wisdom & goodness , yea his very justice it self , might be helpfull in this case ; for being just he will not require satisfaction twice , and once he hath received satis●…action in the sufferings and obedience of christ . to consider these attributes of god might be very usefull & helpfull in this case , as it is said psal. . . ●…ey looked unto him and were ligh●…ned . b●…t one cause of the want or weakness of faith is , that men look too much at creatures , at sense , at reason , at their own baseness , weakness , unworthyness , and look not sufficiently at god . a serious consideration of him through whom all the promises are accompl●…hed , a●…d made good , might be also helpfull in this matter ; and that is the lord jesus , who is the m●…tour of that better covenan●… . established 〈◊〉 better promises , then the old covenant was , heb : . . now in him there is , a●…l fullne●… , col : . . so that what ever we want it is fully to be had in him . in h●… is w●… ▪ righ●… , s●…tification , and redemption , cor : . . in him is life , iohn . . wisdom col. . . righteousness , jer. . p●…ace , ephe. . . the spirit of grace & holyness above ●…easure , iohn . . & . . favour with god , math : . . col. . . power to conquer all the enemies of our salvation , as being king of kings , lord of lords tim: . . able to succour in all temptations , heb : . . mighty to save , isai . . god having laid help upon him , hath laid help upon one that is mighty , psal. . . and able to save to the uttermost all that come to god by him , heb : . . and as there is in him all this fullness , so there is in him as much freeness & readiness , to communicate of this his fulness unto them th●…t trust in him , and sue to him . when he was on earth , he invited men to come to him , and never any so did , but they were holpen ; and his heart is still the same ; so that he hath not lost his mercy by receiving glory , but is still a mercyfull high priest on the behalf of poor sinners heb : . . so that such as come to him , he will in no wise cast them away , john . . therfore let us look unto him isai . . and seriously consider this apostle & high priest of our profession heb : . . and as long as wee so do , we shall do well ; but if we turn the ey of our mind from him , then we fall & sink through unbelief : even as it were with peter , who as long as he kept his ey upon christ , he walked on the water , as firmly as you could do on boards : but when he looked too much on the winds and waves , and kept not christ in his ey , then he began to sink , math : . . lastly , it is good to consider that to believe is not only lawfull , but a necessary commanded duty , and the contrary a very grievous sin . some say they could desire to believe , if they thought they might . may i ? dáre i , saith the soul , apprehend the promise and receive christ ? may i do it ? which is as if one should say , may i obey the commandement of god ? may i do the will of god ? which ought not to be a question . and sure it is , god would gladly have yee to believe , if it might be after him ; ( i speak of his revealed will in his word ) else , what means that protesting , that hee delighteth not in the death of a sinner ezek : . . that beseeching men to be reconciled to god cor : . . that commanding men to believe , iohn . . commending & rewarding such as do , math : . . threatning & pun●…shing the contrary mark . . iohn . , , . heb : . last . and therfore wheras the poor soul saith , dare i believe ? wee might rather meryeil how men dare refuse ; for this is to put horrible indignity upon god , as if he ment not as hee sayes , but deals deceltfully and falsly with poor sinners ; it is to make god a lyer iohn . . as if the god of truth and faithfullness had nothing to do , but to dissemble and to deceive poor souls ; which should be an abhorring to our thoughts to imagin . consider then that obedience is better then complement ; yea better then sacrifice ; and faith is a singular kind of obedience , rom : . . if therfore the question be , what shall i do to be saved , the answer from the lord is , beleive in the lord jesus christ , and thou shalt be saved : acts . , . and if the question be , but how may i do to believe ? the answer is , cry mightily unto god , the giver of faith , that he would bless these and such like meanes for the working of this precious and needfull grace . if justification be by faith , then it is needfull for every soul to examin and try themselves , whether they have this faith or no , whether they be true believers or not : for by this we are justified , and without this faith we can not be justified , nor have any . well grounded assarance of eternal life . see but that one scripture john . , . hee that believeth hath everlasting lif●… ; hee that believeth not shall not see life , but is con le●…ned alrea●…y , and the w●…ath of god abideth on him , and then tell me whether it be not needfull for men to try whether they have this faith or not . for which duty we have also a plain commandment , cor : . . examine your selves , whether ye be in the f●…th or no . vvhat needs this ? for are we not all believers in christ ? we sure are not infidels ? answ : the heart is deceitfull jer : . . so that many think themselves better then they are , rev : . . gal. . . pro : . . it is most certain all have not faith , but many an one lives & dyes utterly destitute of this precious grace thes. . . deat : . . yea many that enjoy the gospel live under the means , and hear many a sermon , yet many of these l●…ve , & dy without faith ; heb : . . john . , . and therfore let it not seem a needless thing to examine our selves whether wee be in the faith or no . you will say , if there be any , or many that want faith , yet you are none of that number . answ : stay a while till you consider some signes & marks , wherby the want of this grace may bee known : which are such as these . from the generall nature of faith , which is a supernaturall work of god , math : . . iohn . . eph. . . col : . . and therfore let a man have nothing , but what he hath by nature , and it is most certain he hath no faith ; there is so much athisme , unbelief , distrust , carnal confidence &c : in the natural and corrupt heart of man , that though he may presume , and though he may despair , yet while he hath no more but what he hath by nature , it is certain he neither doth nor can believe . yea though he may perform some acts of moral obedience to the law , at the least in outward things , there being some seeds as it were for such things left in nature rom : . . yet there are no seeds left at all for evangelical faith ; but this must be wrought and created by the supernatural & almighty power of god . which shews the faith of many to be vain , and nothing but a meer conceit , because they have nothing in them but meer nature , nothing that needed any almighty power for the producing of it : their faith is but a faith of their own making , they never having found any great difficulty in beleiving ; that we may say their faith is too easily gotten to be ought worth . a second signe may be taken from the means of working faith , which is the ministery of the word , by ministers sent of god for that purpose ; so much is plainly taught in rom : . , , . acts . . cor . . and therfore where there is faith , there can not but be an high prizing of the word , and of the ministers therof , as the instrumental cause & means of faith . a man can not esteem lightly of the word , if he have any faith , because by the word his faith was begotten : nor lightly esteem of the ministers , because by them in these dayes the lord usually begetteth faith : for the former of these see psal. . . & jer : . . i will never forget thy precepts , by them thou hast quickned ●…ee ; they are the joy & rejoycing of my heart : and for the latter see rom : . . gal. . . how beautifull are the feet of such men ? they would have pull●… out their eyes , if it had been possible to have given paul . vvhat shall then be thought of them that lightly esteem the word of god ? to hear it , or not to hear ir , are much what both alike to them ; and when they come to the assembly , they regard but little how they there behave themselves , but take liberty to wandring thoughts , and gazing looks , or else fall fast asleep it may be by half a dozen at a time . if these men have any faith it was begotten by the word ; and if they have none , yet if they ever must haue any , it must be begotten by this means . and is it possible they should have any faith , or any true desire of faith , who do no more esteem the meanes therof ? and what may bee thought of them that despise the ministers of the gospel ? who are so farr from counting their feet beautifull , that they rather take pleasure to vex them , molest them , or suffer them almost to starve for want of necessaries ? it is by the ministers of christ that men are brought to believe ; and can they be coūted believers , by whom the faithfull ministers of christ are dispised or lightly esteemed ? a third evidence against many , that they want this grace of faith , may be taken from the consideration of the subject in whom this faith is wrought , which is none other but a poor lost humbled soul , a soul that is convinced of its sinfulness & wretchedness , of its inability to help it self , and of its utter unworthynes , to receive any help or mercy from god , and therfore mourning in the sease herof . such as these are the men that are invited to come to christ math : . . that is , to believe on him ; and such as these it is whom hee came to seek and to save , luke . . but did not come to call others math : . . and therfore where this is wanting , we can not see that there can be any faith . and the reason is plain , because till men be brought to this , they neither will nor can believe . that they will not , is evident in the jews , who through want of this that here is spoken of , did not submit to the righteousness of god in christ jesus rom : . . and for this cause , our saviour tells them john . . yee will not c●…e to me , that y●… may have life . till the prodigal had spent all his portion , and began to feel himself be in want , he never thought of returning to his fathers house luke . and that without this humble & lowly frame , men can not believe is plain from that of our saviour john . . how c●…n ●…ee believe , who seek honour one of another , an●… seek not the honour ●…t commeth from god only ? so that till men be changed from this spirit of pride , self-conceitedness , and vain glory , and be brought to true abasement of spirit , and sel●…-denyall , our saviour tell , us they will not , nay they can not believe . how shall a man swim as long as he feels the ground with his feet ? how shall he build his house upon the rock , as long as the sand is not by deep digging removed and cast away ? luke . . in like sort ; how shall a man believe till he be taken off from all his own bottom , by a spirit of humiliation , being clearly convinced of his own wickedness , weakness , & unworthyness in the sight of god , and bitterly mourning in the sight & sence therof , and lamenting after christ ? till men bee brought to this in some measure of truth , there can not be any saving faith : till the fallow ground of a proud & hard heart be broken up , men do but sow among thorns , jer : . , . the faith which they have is but a temporary faith at the best , and such as will not continue , because the stoniness of the heart hath not been removed by the work of gods spirit in conviction , contrition , & humiliatiō ; math : . , , , . and from this it is that so many professors do so fearfully fall away ; that one becomes a meer worldling , an other falls to profaneness & loose living , another turns opinionist , drinking in the poyson of some pernicious tenent ; all this apostacy is because they never were believers in truth , for then they should not have fallen away , and why were they not believers in truth ? even from hence , because the stoutness & stoniness of their hearts was never taken away . oh therfore all you that are professors of the gospel , and think ye do believe , examin well your selves upon this point of true humiliation ; for if there you be not right , your faith is not right , nor will it hold out and continue in the day of tryall . a fourth triall may be taken from the object of faith ; and there is to be considered the object of faith quae justificat , and qua 〈◊〉 , which doth justifie , and as it doth justifie : in the former respect , the object of ●…aith is the whole word of god ; acts . . what god can speak , it can & doth believe , when it knowes it ●…o be spoken of god . which discovers the faith of many to be 〈◊〉 , because though they say they b●…lieve the promises , yet th●…y believe not the comm●…ndements , for then they would obey t●…em , and ass●…nt to them with their whole hearts ; nor do they bel●…eve the threatning , ●…or then they d●…rst not so securely continue in sin , but would surely tremble & be afraid because of them ; as psal. . ●… . isai . , . holy david did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 com●… 〈◊〉 psal. , . and so did blessed paul , confessing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be ●…y , and the commandement to be holy , just and g●… , and such as he delighted in , rom : . , . as for them that can not endure to be ruled by the law & the commandements of it , nor to be awed by its threatnings , their faith is not sound , as not believing the whole word of god , though they pretend a belief of that part which consists of promises . in the latter respect the object of faith is christ only , and his righteousness : hee is that blessed promised seed , that is chiefly intended in the promise to abram , and which his faith did mainly look at john . . and is the object of true faith as it doth justifie & save ; acts . . joh. . , . therfore where there is this faith , there will be many thoughts of christ , many desires after him , many longings for him , an high prizing of him , to count him precious pet. . , . the cheifest of ten thousands cant : . . a pea●…l & treasure , worthy to bee bought with the sale of all that ever a man hath math : . , . and that all other things are but loss and dung in comparison of this christ and his righteousness , phil. . , , . therfore where the soul scarce ever thinks of christ , or doth not much esteem him and prize him , or not so esteem him as to co●…nt health , wealth , freinds , liberty , life it self , and all a mans own righteousness , and what ever can be named amongst creatures , to be all nothing , in comparison of this lord jesus christ , there we may be well assured that as yet there is not any faith , luke . . lastly , such an excellent grace as faith , can not be without many excellent effects & fruits : such as are humility , purity , love , weanedness from the world , & the like . first for humility , a soul that is lifted up with high conceits of its self is destitute of faith , for such a frame , and true faith are quite contrary & inconsistant ; hab : . . therfore the text saith , the soul of such an one is not upright in him : look at them that have been most eminent in faith , as david , paul , the centurion , the woman of canaan , and we shall find they have ever been low-thoughted of themselves ; psal. . , . eph. . . tim: . . cor : . . math : . 〈◊〉 . math : . . for purity , faith doth fetch such vertue from the blood and spirit of christ , and the pro●…ise , as doth so purifie the heart , acts . . & . . that it can not allow of any sin , but unfainedly hates it all , rom : . . and loves holyness , psal. . , . and for weanedness from the world , the example of moses in notable , who by his faith ref●…sed all the pleasures , profits , and preferments of pharaohs court : preferring the society of the saints , and the very rebuke of christ before them all : heb : . , . and therfore it is said , that faith is the victory that overcomes the world , john . . so that by it the heart is preserved from being too much discouraged , when worldly comforts are wanting , sam : . . hab : . , . and taught so much the more to draw neer to god at such times psal. . . & . . lastly this faith doth so work by love , gal. . . ( and love wee know is the fulfilling of the law rom : . . ) that where there is this faith , there can not but be obedience to all the will of god , heb : . . &c : and the more faith the more obedience , and the more good works ; wheras a faith that hath not works is dead , & no better then the saith of divels , jam : . , . if now upon examination & triall , a man shall find himself without faith , oh then let such an one bewayl his condition , and seek unto god for this precious faith , in the use of such meanes as were mentioned in the precedent use . but if it shall be found upon d●…e and serious 〈◊〉 to be otherwise , then let such a man bee unfeynedly thankfull & comfortable , & that shall be the next use . for if justification be by faith , then they that truely believe can never be sufficiently thankfull , inasmuch as now they are counted just & righteous in the sight of god . consider either the contrary to this justified estate , or the thing it self , and wee shall see there is in it marvello●…s great cause to be thankfull and rejoyce . for the former ; let these particulars be minded : that it is amongst the greatest of miseryes , when a man shall be without the forgivness of his sinns : so much is manifest by the lamentations of the godly , who have greatly lamented this thing , psal. . . job . , . as also by the imprecations against the wicked , against whom it is wished as the greatest evill , that the●…r sinns migh●… not be covered , nor blotted out , nehe. . . psal. . . the com●…inations also of god do shew the same ; for it is threatned & denounced against men as one of the sorest of evill●… , that their sinns shall ly down with them in the dust , that they shall ●…y in their sinns , and that the lord will never forget their wicked works , job . . iohn . . am●…s . . and lastly , when the apostle reckons up the inconveniencies & mischiefs that must unavoidably follow , if christ be not risen from the dead , he names this as one of the worst , that then we are yet in our sins : if christ be not risen saith he , then is our preaching vain , and your faith vain , yea and yee are yet in your sinns cor : . , . all which do clearly shew , that it is a dolefull & dreadfull condition to be without the the pardon & forgivness of sinns . as dolefull & dreadfull as it is , yet till a man attain this benefit of justification , all his sins do remain in gods sight as fresh & clear , as the very day when they were first cōmitted : therfore they are said to be written with a pen of yron , and the point of a diamond jer : . . to be sowed up as in a bagg & sealed iob . . that they might not be out of the way , or hard to find and our saviour speaking of such as then were , ( many of them at least ) dead & gone , saith , ( not they were , but ) they are theevs and robbers , iohn . . intimating that the guilt of those sinns did cleave unto them , fresh in the sight of god to that day , so judas is a traitor to this day , cain a murtherer to this day , and all unbelieving sinners , unjustified persons , whether alive or dead , the guilt of all their sinns doth remain upon them to this day . and if so , then though conscience may be asleep and benummed for a time , yet the time will come when it will awake , to the galling , and vexing and tormenting of the guilty soul , with most dreadfull terrours & horrours ; hence we read of cain crying out in the anguish of his soul , my sin is greater then i can bear , gen : . . and of judas crying out , i have sinned in betraying innocent blood , & in dispair going to the halter to let out his wretched soul , math : . , . yea & josephs brethren apprehending themselves in some danger in egypt , have this dolefull ditty in their mouths , wee are verily guilty concerning our brother , in that we saw the anguish of his soul when he besought us , and wee would not hear ; and therfore is this evill come upon us , gen : . . so that if sin be unpardoned , though conscience for the present may be asleep and quiet ; yet a time will come when this sleepy lyon will awake and roar . and this is certain , that if the guilt of sin remain , the punishment therof can not alwayes be avoided , though it may bee forborn or with-holden for a time . for the lord is a just god , and will by no means clear the guilty exod : . . but tribulation & anguish , indignation and wrath , shall one day take hold of every one that doth evill , on the iew first and also on the gentiles rom : . , . sinn makes a man indebted to gods justice , and considering what god is , how his wrath is a consuming fire , heb : . last . it must needs therfore be a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of this living god , heb : . . for how can a mans heart endure , or his hands bee strong in the day that god shall deal with him ezek : . . who can dwell with that devouring fyre ? who can stand with those everlasting burnings ? isai . . such a dolefull thing it is to have sin unpardoned , and to be unjustified . but on the other side , see what happiness it is to have sinn remitted , and the person justified : it is acknowledged by david , hezekiah , and others as a point of great blessedness , psal. . , . isai . . psal. . . it is also promised as a speciall blessing of the new covenant , that god will therin forgive the iniquities of his people , and remember their sinns no more . jer : . . the godly have earnestly sought it at gods hands by prayer , which they would not have done , had it not been in their esteem a great blessing , hosea . . psal. . . & . , , . it is such a blessing as that if it be once graunted , it shall never be recalled , but shall abide for ever ; sinns , once pardoned are so cast into the depth of the sea , mich. . . that they can never be found any more jer : . . nor will god call them to remembrance again jer : . . it is such a compleat and perfect blessing , that god doth not only pardon some of the sinns of his people , but even all their sinns & trespasses whatsoever ; iohn . . col : . . psal. . . isai . . and on this ground they are bidden be of good comfort math : . . and the prophets must speak comfortably unto them , because their uniquity was pardoned isai . , . it is such a blessing , that it shall undoubtedly be followed with eternall life and glory , tit. . . rom : . . which may be one reason , why it is called justification of life rom : . . all which things considred , both the misery of being still under the guilt of sin , as unpardoned , & the happiness of a justified estate , they therfore that have title to such a great blessing as justification is , have cause for ever to be comforted , to be thankfull to god for so great a blessing ; and all this is the portion of true believers ; for they are the men to whom the lord doth not impute sin , but righteousness , and whom he justifies freely by his grace in jesus christ ; so that as righteousness was imputed to abram , even so it is and shall be to all that are believers , who are the children of abram , righteousness shall be imputed to them also ; rom : . , , , . gal. . , . rom : . , , , . act . . & . . know therfore all you that are true believers in christ , that your sinns are pardoned , and your persons justified & accepted in christ jesus : god is now reconciled to you through his dear son , & your sins shall never be laid unto your charge , for you are justified and cleared in gods sight , and therfore be glad in the lord , and rejoyce yee just and justified persons , and shout for joy all yee that are upright in hear●… ; psal. . . but what need ; much to be said for the comforting of believers ? will not they be forward of themselves to take the comfort of their justification ? many indeed that are destitute of faith are forward enough , & too much to apply comfort to themselves , when it doth not belong unto them , as currs in the house are ready to snatch at t●…e childrens bread , and run away with it as if it were a portion for them : as ham●…n , when the king but spake of the man whom the king delighted to honour , presently applyed the speech to himself , thinking whom will the king honour rather then my self , hest. . . but they that are believers indeed , have many times need to be comforted concerning their justification ; and therfore the lord speaks so earnestly to his prophets isai . , . comfort ye , comfort ye my people , and say unto ierusalem that her iniquity is pardoned , intimating therby , that his people have sometimes need , yea much need to be cōforted cōcerning the pardon of their sins & their justificatiō . for though they be believers , and their sinns pardoned , and their persōs justified in christ , yet somtimes they can scarce believe themselves to be so happy ; as job , though he had called and god had answered him , yet would scarcely believe that god had harkned to his voyce , job . . and david , though nathan had told him that the lord had put away his sinn , and ●…t hee should not dy , sam : . yet he is not so q●…ickly perswaded & so easily satisfied touching this point , but that after this he still prayes & cryes for pardon psal. . as if he had never heard those words of the prophet : and as the children of god have many times need to be comforted touching this point , so the ministry of the word is a means of gods ordayning for the comforting of them ; isai . . thes. . . isai . , . and therfore to comfort them concerning their justification , must not be looked at as a needless labour . if god do give them faith , and therby do justifie them and pardon their sins , why do they not know it ? and how commeth it to pass that they are pardoned & justified in heaven , and not in their own consciences also ? this commeth to pass ; to shew that not only faith & forgivness , but even comfort it self , is the free gift of god , and depends not necessarily & infallibly so on faith , repentance &c : but that these may be , and yet there be little comfort & joy , at least for a time . and therfore it is that god is called the god of comfort , cor : . . and his spirit the comforter , iohn . & . & . and god is said to be hee that speaks peace unto his people , psal. . . all to shew that peace and comfort and joy are blessings , the dispencing wherof the lord hath reserved in his own hand . according to that job . . when hee giveth quietness , who can make trouble ? and when he hideth his face , who can behould him . it thus cōmeth to pass , that the godly may feel the smart & bitterness of sin the more , and so be more deeply humbled in sence therof . that they may be more watchfull afterward . if david like his broken bones , and his roaring all the day long , &c : then let him be bold to be tampering with sin again . but by this meanes god keeps his children from turning again to folly , they know what it hath cost them before , and they will no more buy the pleasure of it so dear . that they may learn to be the more pittyfull to others in the like distresses ; as christ must suffer & be tempted , that he might succour them that are tempted : heb : . , . that they might afterwards more heartily and chearfully prayse and laud the lord ; as they that have been in deep afflictions and are delivered out of the same ; psal. lastly this commeth to pass through the difficulty and supernaturall way of believing . naturall conscience expects justification by works , and therfore hath much adoe to close with mercy in a way of free grace . faith is not like other graces & dutyes , which have some ( though obscure ) footsteps in the naturall dictates of conscience , as to worship god , love god &c : rom : . . but faith is wholly supernatural , math : . . so that adam in his innocency knew not this way of believing in , and trusting to the righteousness of a redeemer & mediator . as christ , the object of faith is only by divine revelation , no counsell of men or angels could ever have devised such a way of justification , so faith it self as the organ and instrument to apply this righteousness , is not by humane light , but wholly from above . and faith being thus supernatural , it is therfore the more difficult , not only to be attained , but also to be discerned . how then may faith & justification be known , that one may have the comfort of the same ? it is good for a man to examine himself by the trialls before mentioned , from the principall efficient , the instrumental means , the object , the subject , and the effects of faith . but withall it is needfull to pray for the illumination of gods spirit , which is able to clear up our faith and our justification by faith ; but without this it will never be satisfyingly discerned & known . for it is the spirit that sheddeth abroad the love of god into our hearts , rom : . . witnesseth that we are the children of god rom : , . sealeth believers to the day of redemption ephe. . . & . . and enables us to know the things that are freely given us of god cor : . . two things concerning justification have been spoken unto already , viz : the chief author or efficient of it , which is the lord , and the instrumental cause or means of it which is faith . in the next place , wee are to consider of the third and last particular here expressed , and that is the forme or manner of it , and that is by imputing , accounting , or reckoning ; he counted it to him for righteousness . vvhence the doctrine is , that , as justification is from god as the author of it , and by faith as the instrument or means of it , so for the forme or manner of it , it is by accounting , reckoning , or imputing . i name these three english words , as our english tongue useth them all , though they all import the same thing , one & the same word in the originall being somtimes englished by one of them , and somtimes by another . now for the farther opening of this point , it is to be observed that there are three things which are said to be imputed or not imputed in this matter of justification ; sin , faith , & righteousness . first of all sinn , and of this the scripture phrase is negative , that sin is not imputed , when a man is justified . this expression of the not imputing of sin is found in such scriptures as these , rom : . . psal. . . cor : . . in which places the holy-ghost speaks of justification . in like sort is the word used sam : . . and in that of paul tim: . . where he prayeth that their sin that forsook him in his appearing before the emperour might not be laid to their charge , or not imputed unto them ; for it is the same word that is often englished imputed , in rom : . so this phrase importeth that when the soul is justified , his sin is not accounted , imputed 〈◊〉 reckoned to him at all in the sight of god , but he stands clear before him as if he had never sinned . faith is said to be imputed ; rom : . , , , , . and how is that meant , when faith is said to be imputed ? there are two wayes how that is understood : first of all , when faith it self is said to be imputed , that is , to be imputed & reckoned to us as our own , though it be not our own any otherwise then as the gift and work of god in us , according as it is said to be the gift of god phil. . . ephe. . . and that no man can come to christ ( that is believe in him ) except he be drawn by the father , ioh. . . but yet when god hath given faith , he then imputes and reckons this faith as ours , though himself have wrought it in us . and this may seem to be needfull , to the end that christ & his righteousness which by faith we possess , may be our own and imputed & reckned to us as our own . for though christ , righteousness be a perfect righteousness , and we possess it by faith , yet how can it be accounted ours , unless faith it self the meanes of possessing it , bee counted ours ? but when faith is accounted ours , then the righteousness of christ possessed by faith , is accounted ours also . if we take the imputing of faith in this sence , then when faith is said to be imputed , or counted for righteousness , that particle [ for ] must not be so understood as if faith it self were in the room and steed of righteousness ; for it hath been shewed ●…fore , that such an apprehention will not stand or agree with truth . but the word [ for , ] doth here only note why , or wherfore , as if it were rendered faith is impu●…a , unto righteousness , that is to say , to the end we may attain unto righteousness ; and in another-place the same preposition is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , twice in one ve●… ; rom : . . with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , with the mouth confession is made unto salvation : and so it might be here rom : . faith is imputed unto righteousness . this exposition of the phrase when faith is said to be accoūted or imputed for righteousness , is given by some very godly & judicious , and i mention it as worthy consideration . but that sense of the word which is more usually given , and wherin i should rest , is when faith is taken relatively for its object , which is christ & his righteousness ; and so these words faith is accounted for righteousness , have this meaning , that christ and his righteousness are so accounted . for as hath been shewed afore , it is not unusuall that faith should be taken in this sense , namely , for its object christ jesus . that which in one verse is called faith , in another is called christ ; gal. . , . so likewise gal. . , . of which sense more hath been spoken afore . there is yet another expression in this matter of imputation , and that is the imputing of righteousness ; which phrase is used rom : . , . so then for the form & manner of justification , there is the not imputing of sinn , and the imputing of righteousness , and the imputing of faith unto righteousness . but for farther opening of this point of imputation , sundry questions may be proposed , viz : vvhat is that righteousness which god doth impute unto us for our justification ? it is the righteousness of jesus christ , our redeemer & mediatour , that which was wrought by him in his own person ; this righteousness of his is imputed unto us by god , and the imputation of it is the formal cause of our justification . that this righteousness of christ is imputed to us , such reasons as these may make manifest : if righteousness be imputed ( as the text plainly & expressly affirms that it is , rom : . , ●… . ) then it must either bee our own righteousness that is so imputed , or else the righteousness of some other . but our own righteousness it can not bee ; for wee being all sinners have none such of our own as can justifie us ; rom : . . psal. . . isai . and besides , this righteousness is said to be imputed without works rom : . . that is without our own works ; so that the righteousness of our own works is not imputed . it must then be the righteousness of another : now that other can be none else but christ alone . any other whose righteousness may be imputed for justification , besides christ can not be imagined . the text is plain that we are justified by christ & his righteousness : jer : . . isai . , . rom : . , : cor : . . and if so , then his righteousness is imputed to us , because there is no other way how it can be cōmunicated to us but by imputation . and yet communicated it must be , else how shall wee be justified by it ? riches , pearls of great value , can make no man rich , till they be applyed and become his own ; and so it is in this case . as we are made sinners by the sin of adam , so are we made righteous by the righteousness of christ ; rom : . . cor : . . but we are made sinners by the sin of adam by imputation ; for the guilt and punishment of that sinn can no otherwise be made ours : and therfore we are made righteous by the righteousness of christ by imputation . look how christ was made a sinner by our sinn , so are wee made righteous by his righteousness , cor : . . now how was christ made a sinner by our sinn ? not inherently , as if there were any sin inherent in him , either in his heart or life ; the scripture is express against that , heb : . . pet : . . for he knew no sinn , in that sence cor : . . it were a most wicked thing to imagine any such matter of him . and therfore it remayneth that he was made a sinner by imputation only ; he was made sinn for us cor : . . the lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all , isai . . but now this also may be questioned by some , whether our sinns were imputed to christ ? and whether he bare any punishment due to us for our sinns ? there are sundry reasons that may clear this also : it may be cleared by all those scriptures where it is said that christ suffered , and dyed for our sinns , rom : . . & . , . cor : . . pet : . . isai . , . heb : . . christ did not dy w●…out a cause gal. . last : for our sinns were the cause . and if our sinns were the cause of his death , and that he dyed for them , then they were imputed to him , so that when he suffered and dyed , he bare the punishment of our sinns . christ is said to bear our sinns , pet. . . isai . , . now to hear them doth imply that he bare the punishmēt of them , and that they were imputed to him for that end . for wheras some do think , that to bear our sinns doth signifie no more but that hee bare them away from us , without bearing himself any punishment deserved by them , it is manifest that the phrase of bearing sinn , or bearing iniquity , can have no such meaning , but that it signifies to bear the punishment deserved by sinn : as where it is said of such & such offenders , that they shall bear their iniquity , lev : . . & . . that every one shall bear his own burden gal. . . & . . and that the sonn shall not bear the iniquity of the father , nor the father the iniquity of the sonn , ezek : . . can any man imagin that here to bear iniquity should signifie to bear it away from himself or from another ? if any could so do , there were no evill in such a bearing , but that were a lawfull , yea a commendable and blessed bearing of another mans sin ; but the text speaks of bearing iniquity in an other sence , wherin no man shall bear the iniquity of another , but every man bear his own burden , his own sin ; that is the punishment of his sin . therfore inasmuch as the lord jesus bare our sinns , he bare the punishment due by them , they being imputed to him for that end . christ was made a curse for us , gal. . . and this implies that he bare the punishment of sin for us ; for to be made a curse or to be cursed is alwayes used in that sence , math : . . pet : . . gal. . . christ was a ransom or a price of redemption for us ; math : . . tim: . . cor : . . and this doth imply that the punishment of our sinns was laid upon him . christ was a sacrifice for us , or for our sinns , heb : . , . & . . & john . . math : . . and inasmuch as all the sinns of the people were put & laid upon the sacrifice lev : . , , . & vers , . & lev : . . therfore this implies and teacheth that all our sins were imputed to christ , & the punishment of them laid upon him . what can be more plain then what is written in isai . . cor : . . he was made sinn for us , god hath laid on him the iniquity of us all ? but how can this stand with justice , that our sinns , should bee imputed to christ , and he be punished for them ? can it stand with justice that one should be punished for anothers sin and the innocent for the guilty ? yes , there is no injustice at all in it , that the surety be responsible for the debt , as philem : . paul becoming surety for onesimus , saith to philemon , put that on my account , let it bee imputed to mee , let me answer & pay it . now christ was our surety , heb : . . more particularly thus ; it is no wayes unjust that one be punished for the sin of another , when the things here following do all concur : when all that are concerned in it are willing and do consent . when there is a neer relation and union between the offender and the sufferer . when the sufferer hath free dominion over that from which he parteth in his sufferings for another . when he hath power to break through and overcome all his sufferings , and to reassume his former condition again . when this way is not to the dishonour of any , but for the greater honour & glory of all . and so it is in all the particulars when the lord jesus did suffer for us . but if god do not graunt forgiveness , attonement , righteousness , without the punishment of our sinns laid on christ , and suffered by him , where then is there any grace or mercy in our salvation ? for it seems god doth not save us without satisfaction to himself ? yet there is much grace & mercy in our salvation notwithstanding what is here said : for , it is mercy to us , though it be merited by christ . it was great grace and mercy to accept of satisfaction from another ; for the rigour of the law would not allow of this , but exacts satisfaction from the sinner himself in his own person . and therfore there was in it great grace to us , that god by his soveraign power would in this point dispēce with the rigour of the law . it was yet a point of father grace , and mercy , that he himself would find out this remedy , this way of salvation by another . for we our selves could never have found out such another , nor could any other creature have found it out for us . so that though justice be satisfied , and punishment be suffered , yet our salvation is of free grace and mercy notwithstanding , justice and mercy most sweetly concurring in our salvation by christ jesus . if then the righteousness of christ be imputed to us , what was that righteousness of christ that is imputed ? such a righteousness as man now oweth to yeild & perform unto god : and that is two-fould : passive , in a way of suffering penalty or punishment for his transgression : this every sinner doth owe to god by the sentence of his just law , which requireth that the sinner be accu●…sed and suffer death for his sinn , gal. . . rom : . . a sinner oweth obedience de novo ; and is still bound to obey the law , though he must & when he hath satisfied for former breaches . it stands not with reason that paying the penalty threatned for transgression , hee should therby becom lawless , or free from thenceforth from the debt & duty of obedience which the law requireth . and this being the righteousness that a sinner oweth , this therfore is the righteousness which christ performed for us , and which is imputed to us for our justification , even both his active & passive obedience ; therfore it is said that he fulfilled all righteousness , math : . . even all that the law requireth of fallen man , whether it bee suffering or doing : both which seen to be comprehended in that one saying phil : . . that christ humbled himself and became obedient even to death , the death of the cross ; which place implyes that there is an obedience which falls short of death , and an obedience in suffering death , and that christ for our sakes & in our steed performed both . in which respect also it is that he is said to bee the end of the law for righteousness ; rom : . . now the end of the law is perfect righteousness , in doing what is commanded , and in suffering punishment in case of sin & transgression ; and so christ being the end of the law , hath therfore performed both these things for us , which the law requireth of sinners , viz : to do what it cōmanded , and to suffer what is due for sinn . if this righteousness be imputed to us , doth it not then follow that we are as righteous as christ ? and that every believer is a redeemer and saviour of others ? for christ was so . this will not follow at all ; and the reasons are : because the sin of adam is impated to all the sonn , of adam , and yet every son of adam is not a cause & fountain of sin to all others , as adam was : and so we may say in the case in hand . the vertue that is in the head is communicated to all the members , and yet it doth not follow that every member is hereby made an head , to communicate vertue to all the other members , as the head doth : so here . though christs righteousness be sufficient for all the elect universally , and for every one in particular , yet when it is applyed it is not applyed to every particular person of them , as it is a price for all , but as it is a price sufficient for himself . it behooveth then all the children of god to take heed of such spirits as deny the doctrine of imputation . popish writers have sometimes made a jest & a mock of this doctrine , calling imputed righteousness a putative righteousness , a new no justice ; and some others that in profession otherwise are farr from popery , yet cannot yield that there is any imputing of our sinns to christ , or of christs righteousness to us . against all which conceits , let that be minded and considered which hath here been said for the clearing of these things . and to sober minds it should weigh much , that the term of imputing righteousness is frequently found in scripture , and the very word imputing no less then nine or ten times in that one chap : of rom : . though it be englished sometimes reckoned , sometimes accounted , and somtimes imputed . by this we may see the great grace of god ; in that we having no righteousness of our own ( and that yet without righteousness we could not be justified , ) he is graciously pleased to impute unto us the righteousness of christ , that by it we might be justified , and that faith should be imputed for righteousness had we had any works of our own that might have sufficed in this matter , then indeed the reward might have been reckned not of grace but of debt : but now when righteousness is accounted by faith , and is imputed to believers without works , this doth exceedingly set forth the riches and freeness of gods grace ; rom : . , . and therfore it is of faith , that it might be by grace rom : . . and in as much as our sinns were imputed to christ , and the punishment of them imposed upon him , therfore the godly have in this respect great cause to be deeply affected with sinn , and to grieve for it . for it was not judas , nor all the malicious jewes , no nor herod , nor pilate , nor all the rest of the wicked world that could have brought christ to his painfull passion and death , no nor have so much as touched the least hayr of his head , had not the sins of gods people been imputed to him and laid upon him ; but hee was bruised for our iniquities : for the transgression of gods people was hee smitten , isai . , . so that our sinns were the cause of his sufferings ; which consideration should be a means & motive for the awaking of our hearts with godly sorrow ? as it is written zach : . . they shall look on him w●…om they have peirced ; and they shall mourn therfore with bitter mourning , as a man for h●…s only son , and for the loss of h●…s first born . they that do deny that when the lord jesus suffered , he bare the punishment of our sinns , do not a little hinder the exercise of repentance and godly sorrow for sinn , in all those in whom this opinion takes place , there being no one consideration more effectual & available for stirring up the exercise of this grace , then this that we are speaking of , that our sinns were the cause of christs sufferings , the thought wherof should exceedingly break & melt our hearts . and if righteousness be imputed to believers , for their justification , oh then how may this comfort & stay the hearts of all poor penitent believers , and mourning souls , who can see much sinn in themselves for which they might justly be condemned , but can see nothing in themselves for which they might be justified ; and hereupon are vile in their own eyes , abhoring themselves , looking and lamenting after christ . be not dismayed , all you that are such , but be it spoken to the stay & comfort of your hearts , that though you can not be justified by any inherent righteousness of your own , yet you may be justified by the imputed righteousness of another . abram we see believed in the lord , and it was imputed unto him for righteousness ; do you then believe in the lord jesus christ , and righteousness shall be imputed unto you also , and therby you shall be justified , though you have no inherent righteousness of your own , that can any thing availe for this purpose . lastly if righteousness be imputed to believers for their justification , let us then all learn highly to prize and earnestly to desire this imputed righteousness . shall we now content our selves with any inhere●… righteousness of our own , whether inward vertues , or outward performances , and think to be justified in the sight of god ? no , no , all righteousness of ours is but as filthy raggs isai . . there is no man living that can be justified before god by that means , or in such a way , psal. . . it is the lord jesus who is our righteousness , jer : . . and he it is who is made unto us wisdom , righteousness , and redemption cor : . . and in comparison of this lord jesus christ and his righteousness which is by faith , even the righteousness which is of god by faith , all other righteousness , all other things in the matter of justification are but loss , and to be esteemed as ●…ung , as they were unto the apostle paul ; phil. . , , . and they that neglect this righteousness without them , that it might be imputed to them , and content themselves with their own righteousness , inherent in them , or wrought by them , shall one day find that they have been miserably deceived and deluded , like those that kindle a fire unto themselves , and compass themselves about with their own sparks , but in the end do ly down in sorrow , isai . . wherfore let all that fear god , yea all that desire to walk wisely for their own everlasting comfort , seek first the kingdom of god , and his righteousness , and then all other things shall bee added to them , math : . . yea let them hunger and thirst after righteousness , for such are blessed and shall be filled ; math : . . finis . the table . a abram adorned with many good works , and yet justified only by faith pag , . attributes of god , the consideration of them , a means for the b●…getting of faith . page . b bear iniquity , what is ment thereby . page , , . believing in the lord , is not only to believe the word to be true , but also implyes relyance on god , page . farther confirmation of faith called believing p. to believe on christ , and to believe a mans self to be justified differ : p. , to believe on christ is not only lawfull , but commanded p. , . see faith . c change none in god , though he wills a change in the creature . page . christ the object of faith , p. , , . how he dyed & rose again for our justification , p. , , . consideration of his f●…lness & freeness of grace , a means for the begetting of faith , page . comfort to believers p. . how it commeth to pass that believers do not allwayes feel the comfort of a justified estate page , . how attained p. . f faith the object of it as it justifieth , page , , . doth not justifie as a work or vertue in us p. . is not the very matter or thingly which we stand just p. , . doth justifie only in respect of its object , christ , p. . doth all with reference to christ ; ibid. why love & other graces do not justifie as well as faith , christ being the object of them also , p. . faith only doth justifie p. . no actuall justification afore it p. , , . wee are not justified by it declaritively only page . should be laboured for , six means wherby p. , to . the misery of a soul without it p. . means for the tryall of it p. , etind●… . faith a supernatural grace . the humbled soul the subject of it p. . of the fruits of it page , . forgivness of sinns , the dreadfulness of being without it p. , . the happiness of being forgiven page , . g gospel , what , page . the meanes of faith p. . what is its work in the begetting of faith , page . grace , justificatiō is of gods free grace page . yea though we be not justified without christs satisfaction p. , . h humbled soul the subject of faith , p. . see sorrow for sin . i ●…tation the form of justification , pag . the meaning of that saying , faith is imputed for righteous●…ss , p. . of christs righteousness to us p. , . of our sins to christ p. . and how this can stand with justice p. . imputed righteousness to be sought p. . justice , how to impute the sins of one to another can stand therewith p. . how justice & mercy do accord in justificatiō & salvation by christ p. , . justification the work of god p. , . can never be lost . p. . is by faith p. , . & by faith only . no actual justificatiō afore faith , ten reasons p. &c : objections for justification afore faith answered , p. , to . absurdities of justification from eternity , . purchased by christ though not applyed afore faith p. , . the blessedness of a justified estate and the contrary p. to . how free when it is not without christs satisfaction p. . l law alone can not beget faith , & yet is necessary to prepare for faith p. . love of god eternal , yet justificatiō & other fruits of it exhibited in time , . m mercy in our salvation , though it bee not without the satisfaction of christ pag , . ministry of the word a means of faith page . see word . p promises of god , the consideration of them a m●…n for the bege●…ting of faith . punishment of our sins laid on christ , & how this can stand with justice , . r righteousness of christ impu●…ed is both active & passive p. . wee are not as righteous as christ , though his righteousness be imputed to us , page . wee should not content our selves with righteousness inherent , but seek for imputed also p. . comfort against the imperfection of our own righteousness page . s sorrow for sin , where it is not , there is no faith . the sufferings of christ for our sins , a means of godly sorrow p. . u ungodly how god justifies them . w word the means of faith p. , , . why many have it & yet never attain 〈◊〉 faith page . . their case lamentablē that want it , p. . what to be thought of infants , idiots , deaf persons that can not hear the word page . errata . in page . line . for variens , read very . p . l. ●… . for ●…s . r. this . l. . for the . r. this . p. . l. for theupon . r. therupon . p. . l. for only that . r. only to know that . p. . l. . for were . r. was . p. . l. . for deals , r. dealt . p. . l. . for ther●… . r. here finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- quest answ : quest . answ. quest . answ : quest . answ. do●…r : 〈◊〉 quest : 〈◊〉 answ : quest : 〈◊〉 answ : quest : answ. quest : answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : use use use quest . answ : doct : reas : reas : use use use use use use doctr : propos. propos. propos : quest : answ : propos. use use object : answ : object : answ : object : answ : object : answ : object : answ : object : answ : use quest : answ : use object : answ : use quest answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : doctr : mr. forbes quest : answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : quest : answ : use use use use use a platform of church discipline gathered out of the word of god, and agreed upon by the elders, and messengers of the churches, assembled in the synod at cambridge in new england, to be presented to the churches and generall court for their consideration and acceptance in the lord, the eighth moneth, anno . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text w in the english short title catalog (wing p ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing p estc w ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a platform of church discipline gathered out of the word of god, and agreed upon by the elders, and messengers of the churches, assembled in the synod at cambridge in new england, to be presented to the churches and generall court for their consideration and acceptance in the lord, the eighth moneth, anno . mather, richard, - . [ ], , , [ ] p. printed by s.g. at cambridge in new england, and are to be sold at cambridge and boston, [cambridge, mass.] : . marginal notes. drawn up by richard mather. cf. holmes, minor mathers, another issue of a. generally known as the cambridge platform. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng congregational churches -- massachusetts -- cambridge -- early works to . congregational churches -- government. a w (wing p ). civilwar no a platform of church discipline gathered out of the word of god: and agreed upon by the elders: and messengers of the churches assembled in congregational churches in new england. cambridge synod f the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the f category of texts with or more defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a platform of church discipline gathered out of the word of god : and agreed upon by the elders : and messengers of the churches assembled in the synod of cambridge in new england . to be presented to the churches and generall court for their consideration and acceptance , in the lord . the eight moneth anno psal : . how amiable are thy tabernacles o lord of hosts ? psal : . . lord i have loved the habitation of thy house & the place where th●…ne honour dwelleth . psal : . . one thing have i desired of the lord that will i seek after , ●…hat i may dwell in the house of the lord all the dayes of my life to behold the beauty of the lord & to inquire in his temple . printed by s g at cambridge in new england and are to be sold at cambridge and boston anno dom : . the preface the setting forth of the publick conf●…ssion of the faith of church●… at●… a 〈◊〉 ●…d , 〈◊〉 b●…h ten●…ing to puplic . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of the fa●…h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 se●…f : secondly th●… holding 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 un●…ty & harm●… , both amongst , & with other churches . our chu●…es h●…e , as ( ●…y the grace of chr●…st ) wee beleive & profess the sam●… ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…e 〈◊〉 ●…f ●…he gospell , which generally is received in ●…ll the reformed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…st in ●…rope : so 〈◊〉 , wee desire not to vary f●…om the ●…octrine of f●… 〈◊〉 ●…eld fo●… by ●…he churches of our nat●…ve country . for though it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that can breed vs 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 min●… ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 w●…e for to hav●… the glor●…ous fa●…h of our lord iesus w●…th respect of persons : yet as p●…ul who wa●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ●…rofessed to hold forth the doctrine of just●…fication by faith , & of th●… 〈◊〉 of the de●… , 〈◊〉 as he know his godly countrymen did , who were ●…wes by nature ( gala●… . . . acts . , . ) soe wee , who are by nature ; eng●…sh m●…n , d●… d●…sire to hold forth the s●…me 〈◊〉 of religion ( especially 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) wh●… wee see & kn●…w to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by th●… churches of england , accor●…g to the truth of the gospell the more wee 〈◊〉 , ( that which wee doe , & have cause to doe with incessant 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 ) he 〈◊〉 , & unbr●…therly , & unchristian contentions of our godly brethr●…n , & countrymen , ●…n matters of church-government : he more ern●…stly do●… wee desire to see th●…m joyned together in one common faith , & our selves w●… 〈◊〉 . for th●…s ●…nd , h●…ng perused the publ●…k confession of faith , agreed uponly the reverend assembly of d●…ines at 〈◊〉 , & find●…ng the sum●… & su●…stance therof ( in matters of doctrine ) to express not th●… own judgements o●…ly , 〈◊〉 o●…rs also : and being likewise called upon by our godly mag●…strates , to d●…w up a publick 〈◊〉 of that f●…ith , which is constan●…ly taught , & genera●…y 〈◊〉 amongst us , wee thought good to p●…esent ●…nto them , & with them to our 〈◊〉 , & w●…h them to all the church●…s of christ abroad , our prof●…ssed & hearty 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 to th●… whole 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 faith ( f●…r 〈◊〉 of d●…ctrine ) which 〈◊〉 reverend 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 h●…nourable 〈◊〉 of engl●… : excep●…ing only some 〈◊〉 in the & . c●…apters of their conf●…ssion , whic●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of con●…roversie in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; 〈◊〉 whi●… wee ref●…re our selves to the draught of church-discpline in the ensueing treatise . the truth of what we here declare , may appear by the unanimous vo●…e of the synod of the elders & messengers of our churches assembled at cambridg , the last of the sixth month , : wo●…ch ioyntly passed in these words ; this synod having perused , & considered ( with much gladness of heart , & thankfullness to god ) the cōfession of faith published ●…f late by the reverend assembly in england , doe judge it to be very holy , orthodox , & judicious in all matters of faith : & doe therfore freely & fully consent therunto , for the substance therof . only in those things which have respect to church government & discipline , wee refer our selves to the platform of church-discipline , agreed upon by this present assē●…ly : & doe therfore think it meet , that this confession of faith , should be cōmended to the churces of christ amongst us , & to the honoured court , as worthy of their due consideration & acceptance . howbe●… , wee may not conceal , that the doctrine of vocation expressed in chap . s . & summarily repeated , chap . & . passed not without some debate . yet considering , that the term of vocation , & others by which it is described , are capable of a larg , or more strict sense , & use , and that it is not intended to bind apprehensions precisely in po●…t of order or method , there hath been a generall condescendency therunto . now by this our professed consent & free concurrence with them in all the doctrinalls of religion , wee hope , it may appear to the world , that as wee are a remnant of the people of the same nation with them : so wee are professors of the same common faith , & fellow heyres of the same common salvation . yea moreover , as this our profession of the same faith with them , will exempt us ( even in their judgmēts ) from suspicion of heresy : so ( wee trust ) it may exempt us in the like sort from suspicion of schism : that though wee are forced to dissent from them in matters of church-discipline : yet our dissent is not taken up out of arrogancy of spirit in our selves ( whom they see willingly condescend to learn of them : ) neither is it carryed with uncharitable censoriousness towards them ( both which are the proper , & essentiall charracters of schism ) but in meekness of w●…sdom , as wee walk along w●…th them , & follow them , as they follow christ : so where wee 〈◊〉 a ●…fferent apprehention of the mind of christ ( as it faileth out in some few points 〈◊〉 church-order ) wee still reserve due reverence to them ( whom wee judge to be , th●…ough chr●…st , the glorious l●…ghts of both nations : ) & only crave leave ( as in spirit wee are bound ) to follow the lamb w●…thersoever he goeth , & ( after the apostles example ) as wee bele●…ve , so wee speak . and if the example of such poor outcasts as our selves , might prevaile if not with all ( for that were too great a blessing to hope fo●… ) yet with some or other of our brethren in england , so farr as they are come to ●…ind & speake the same thing with such as dissent from them , wee hope in christ , it would not onely moderate the harsh judging and condemning of one another in such differences of judgment , as may be found in 〈◊〉 ch●…ysest sa●…nts : but also preven ( ●…y the mercy of 〈◊〉 ) the perill of the distraction & 〈◊〉 of all the churches 〈◊〉 both k●…ngdoms . otherwise , if brethren shall goe on to bite & devoure one another , the apo●… feare●… ( as wee als●… , ●…th s●…dness of 〈◊〉 a●… ) 〈◊〉 will tend to the 〈◊〉 of them , & 〈◊〉 wh●…ch t●…e lo●…d prevent . wee are not ignorant , that ( besides these 〈◊〉 of heresy & schis●… ) other exceptions also are tak●…n at our w●…y of church govern●… : 〈◊〉 ( as wee conce●… ) u●… as li●…le 〈◊〉 . as that by admitting none into the fellowship of our church , but saints by c●…lling , wee 〈◊〉 p●…sh-churches of th●… b●…st 〈◊〉 , to make up one of o●…r cong●…gations : which is not o●…ly , to gather churches o●…t of churches ( a th●…ng 〈◊〉 ●…f ●…n sc●…pture : ) but also to weaken the hearts & hands of the best minist●…rs ●…n th●… par●…shes , by d●…spoyling them of th●…●…st ●…earers . that wee provide no course for the gayning , & 〈◊〉 in , of ignorant , & erronious , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whom wee 〈◊〉 to receive into our churches , & so exclude from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 . that in our way , wee sow seed●… of division & h●…ndrance of edificat●…ō in every f●…ly : whilst admitting into our churches only voluntar●…es , the husbād w●…ll be ●…f on●… church , the wife of another : the parent , of one church , the children of 〈◊〉 the ma●…ster of one ch●…rch , the servant , of another . and so the parent & ma●…sters being of d●…fferent churches from their child●…n & servants , t●…ey cannot take a j●…st ●…ccount of their profiting by what they heare , yea by this 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 , parents , & ma●…sters , shall be chargable to t●…e 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 other churc●…es & church-officer●… , besides their own : which will prove a charge & b●…rden unsuppo●…ble . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to 〈◊〉 . fo●… 〈◊〉 churches out of churches , wee cannot s●…y t●… it is a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the ●…st 〈◊〉 church was 〈◊〉 out ●…f the iew●…sh 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that church , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…f 〈◊〉 , part●…y of 〈◊〉 ga●…leans : who though t●…y k●…pt some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 parts of pu●…k 〈◊〉 wi●…h the t●…ple : yet 〈◊〉 th●… 〈◊〉 th●…y frequen●… th●… 〈◊〉 , no●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 of their 〈◊〉 causes , b●…t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the apostles c●…ch ●…ll ●…he ord●…nances of the gos●… . and for the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church of the 〈◊〉 at antoch , it appe●…reth 〈◊〉 ●…ve ●…een g●…hered & 〈◊〉 partly of the ●…sed b●…hren of the 〈◊〉 at ierus●…lem ( whe●…of so●… were men of cyprus , and 〈◊〉 ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . acts . ●… . , . if it be sa●…d the fi●…st christ●…an church at ierus●…lem , & that at antioch were gathered not out of any ch●…stian church , but out of the jewish 〈◊〉 and synagogues , which were shortly aft●…r to be abolished : & their gathering to ant●…och , was upon occasion of dispersion in time of persecution . wee d●…sire , it may be considered , i that the members of the iewish church were more strongly and st●…tly tyed by express holy covenant , to keep fellowsh●…p with the iewish church , t●…ll it was abol shed , then any members of christian parish-churches are wont to be tyed to keep fellowsh●…p with their par●…sh-churches . the episcopall canon●… , which bind them to attend on th●…er parish church , it is likely they a●…e now abolished with the episcopa●…y . the common law ●…f the land is satisfy a ( as wee concive ) if they attend upon the worship of god in any other church though not 〈◊〉 their own parish . but no such like covenant of god , nor any other religious 〈◊〉 upon them to attend the worship of god in their own par●…sh church , as did lye up●…n the iewes to attend upon the wo●…ship of god in their temple and synagogue . t●…ugh the iew●…sh temple church at ierus●…em was to be abolis●… , vet that doeth not make the desertion of it by the members , to be lawfull , ●…ll 〈◊〉 was al●…o she●… . future abolition is now errant for present dese●…o : unless it be lawfull ●…n some case 〈◊〉 the chu●…chis yet in present sta●…ding to 〈◊〉 ; to witt , either for avoyding of present polutions , or for hope of greater 〈◊〉 , and so f●…r better 〈◊〉 to conscience in either future events ( 〈◊〉 for●… of 〈◊〉 ) to not ●…olve present relat●…on . else wives , children , servants , might desert 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pa●…ents , ●…asters , when they be mortally sick . what the members of the iewish ch●…ch did , 〈◊〉 to the church a●… antioch , in time of persecution , it may w●…ll be con●…ved , ●…e 〈◊〉 of any christ an church may d●… the lik , for satisfaction of con●… . pe●…ce of 〈◊〉 is m●…re 〈◊〉 then the pe●…ce of the outwa●…d 〈◊〉 ●…nd 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of cons●…ēce is m●…re 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to a sincere hea●… , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 . if it be s●…d , these members of the christ an ch●…ch at 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that joyned to the church at antioch , removed their 〈◊〉 together with th●…r relations : which ●…f the brethren of the 〈◊〉 way 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it w●…ll much abate the grievance of their depart●… from their presbyter all churche●… . wee verily could w●…sh them ●…o to a●… , as ●…ll approv●…ng the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…bitation , ●…n case of ch●…ging church-relation●… ( 〈◊〉 , that it may be done wi●…hout too much ●…riment to their outward estate ) ●…nd w●… for our pa●…tes , have done t●…e same . but to put a necessi●…y of removall of habi●…●…n in such 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 is to fo●…nt and cherish a corrupt principle of making civ●…l ●…ation , if ●…ot a 〈◊〉 cause , yet at least a proper adiunct of church-relation ; which the truth of the gospel do●…h no●… ackno●…ledg . now to 〈◊〉 an errour to the prejudice of the tr●…th of the gospell , is no●… to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the truth of the g●…pel , as paul 〈◊〉 , galat. . . wee do not think it meet , or safe , for a me●…ber of a presbyteriall church , fo●… with to desert his relation to his church , betake himself to the fellowship of a 〈◊〉 church , though he may d●…scern some def●…ct in the estate , or government of his owne . for faithfullness of brotherly love in church-relation , requireth , that the members of the church sh●…ld first convince their brethren of their sinfull defects , & duely wait for their reformation , bef●…re they depart from them . for if wee must take such a course for the healing of a private brother , in a way of brotherly love , with much ●…eekness , & patience : how more more ought wee so to walk with like tendrness , towards a whole church . again by the hasty departure of ●…ound members from a defective church , refo●…mation is not promoted , but many times retarded , & corruption increased . wheras ●…n the contrary , while sincere members breathing after purity of reformation abide together , they may ( by the blessing of god upon their faithfull endeavours ) preva●…le much with their elders , & neighbours towards a reformation ; ●…t may be , so 〈◊〉 , as that their elders in their own church shall receive none to the lord ▪ table , ●…ut visible saints : & in the classis shall put forth no authoritive ●…ct but c●…tive only ) touching the members of other churches : nor touching their own but 〈◊〉 the consent ( silēt consent at least ) of their own church : which two things , 〈◊〉 t●…ey can ●…bteyn with any humble , meek , holy , faithfull endeavours , wee 〈◊〉 , they might ( by the grace of christ find liberty ●…f consc●…ce to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 relation with their own pre●…byteriall church , w●…hout scru●…le ●…t to add a word farthe●… , 〈◊〉 the gathering of c●…urches out of ch●…rches , what ●…f the●…e we●…e ●…o express examp●…●…f such a 〈◊〉 extant in the script●… ? 〈◊〉 wh●… w●… 〈◊〉 w●… to 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , may suffice hear : it is 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 th●… of may be gathered from just 〈◊〉 of scripture 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…ase , 〈◊〉 ▪ for ought wee know ) w●…thout ex 〈◊〉 , w●…ch he g●…e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ans to qu : c . nu●… . if any ( faith he ) wronged with unj●…st vexation , or providing for his own 〈◊〉 or in test●…ony against sin̄ depart from a church where some evills are tollerated , & joyn himself to another more p●…re , yet without cōdemning of the chu●…ch he l●…veth , he is not therfore to be h●…ld as a schismatick , or as guilty of any other sinn . whe●…e the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which the 〈◊〉 docter putteth , declareth the lawf●…llness of the dep●…ture of a church-me●…er from his church , when e●…ther through w●… 〈◊〉 of unjust vexation , or 〈◊〉 way of pr●…sion for h●…s own edification , or in test●…ny 〈◊〉 sinn , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 co●…gtion mo●…e reformed . any one ●…f 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 c●…use of de●…re , though all of them do not concurr together . neither will such a practise dispoyle the best m●…nisters of the p●… she s of the●… best he●…ers . for somtimes the m●…sters themselves are willing to joyn with their better sort of hearers , in this way of reformation : & then they & their h●…rers cont●…nue stil their ch●…ch relati●… together , ye●… & confirm●…t mo 〈◊〉 & strongly , by an express re●…ewed covenant , th●…h the ministers may still continue their w●…ted pre●…ching to the w●…le p●…sh . if the m●…ster , d●… 〈◊〉 the way of those , w●…om they otherwise 〈◊〉 their best me●…bers , & so refuse to joyn with them therin ; yet ●…f those members can procu●…e s●…e other mi●…ster , to joyn with them in their ow●… way , & st●…ll 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same town , they may easily order the times of the 〈◊〉 assembly , as to attend constantly upon the 〈◊〉 of their former church : & either after or before the publick assembly of the parish take an opportunity to gather together for t●…e 〈◊〉 of sacramēts , & censure●… , & other church ordinances amongst themselves . the fi●…st apostolick 〈◊〉 assembled to hear the word with the jewish church in the open courts of the temple : but 〈◊〉 gathered together for 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 , & other acts of church-order , from house to house suppose , pre●…byteriall churches should cōmunicate so●…e of their best gifted members toward the erecting & gathering of another 〈◊〉 : ●…t would not forthwith be their detriment , but may be their 〈◊〉 . it is the most noble & perfect work of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( bot●… 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 ) 〈◊〉 ●…gate , & multiply his kind●… & t●… t●…e honour of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…t , to set forward the wor●… of ch●…st 〈◊〉 well 〈◊〉 as at home . the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the ●… . to help forw●…rd he●… little ●…-church ▪ w●… 〈◊〉 t●… 〈◊〉 ●…th he●… ch●…yse-materiall , even be●…es of ced●…r , & such pretio●… living 〈◊〉 , ●…s wee●… fit to build a silver pall●…ce in the same book , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comp●…ed some●…e to a 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 to an orchard , cant . ●… . no 〈◊〉 plant to a garden , or orchard , but seeketh to get the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & plant , of his neighbours , & they freely imp●…rt them : nor doe they accoūt●…t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to their garden , & orchards , but rat●… 〈◊〉 . nevertheless wee go not so farr : we ne●…ther seek , nor ●…alk the choyse-members of the parishes but accept them being offered . if it be sa●… , ●…hey are not offered by the m●…nisters , nor by the par●…sh churc●…s ( who have most right in them ) but only by themselves . it may j●…stly be dema●…nded what right , or what powr have either the ministers , or parish church over them . not by solemn church coven●…nt : for that , though it be the fi●…est engagement , is not owned , but rejected . if it be , by their joyning with the parish , in the calling & election of a minister to such a congregation at his first comming , there is indeed just weight in such an ingagement : nor doe wee judge it safe for such to remove from such a minister , unless it be upon such grounds , as may justly give him due satisfactiō . but if the uniō of such members to a parish church , & to the ministery therof , be only by cohabitation within the precincts of the parish , that union , as it was founded upō humane law : so by humane law it may easily be released . or otherwise , if a man remove his habitation , he removeth also the bond of his relation , & the ground of offence . it need not to be feared , that all best hearers of the best ministers , no nor the most of them , will depart from them upon point of church-governmēt . those who have found the presence & powr of the spirit of christ breathing in their ministers , either to their conversion , or edification , will be slow to change such a ministery of faith , & holyness , for the liberty of church-order . upon which ground , & sundry other such like , their be doubtless sundry godly & judicious hearers in many parishes in england that doe & will prefer their relation to their ministers ( though in a presbyteriall way ) above the congreg●…tionall confoederation . but if all , or the most part of the best hearers of the best ministers of parishes , should depart from them , as preferring in their judgments , the congregationall way : yet , in case the congregationall way should prove to be of christ , it will never greiv the holy hearts of godly ministers , that their hearers should follow after christ : yea many of themselves ( upon due deliberation ) will be reaedy to go along with them . it never greived , nor troubled john baptist that his best disciples , departed from him to follow after christ . joh. . but in case the congregationall way should prove to be , not the institution of christ ( as wee take it ) but the invētion of men : then doubtless , the presbyteriall form ( if it be of god ) will swallow up the other●… as moses rod devoured the rods of the aegyptians . nor will this put a necessity upon both the opposite partyes , to sh●…ft for themselves , & to seek to supplant one another : but only , it will call upon them {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to seek & to follow the trueth in love , to attend in faithfullness each ūto his own flock , & to administer to the●… all the holy things of god , & their port ō of food in due season : & as for others , quietly to forbear them , & yet to instruct them with meekness that are contrary minded : leaving it to christ ( in the use of all good meanes ) to reveal his own trueth in his own time : & mean while endeavouring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace . 〈◊〉 p. . , . ephesians . . . to the exception , that wee take no co●…rse for the gayning & healing & 〈◊〉 in of ignorant & erronious , & scandal●…s persōs , whom wee refuse to receive into our churches & so exclude them from the rēmidy of church 〈◊〉 wee conceive the receiving of them into o●…r 〈◊〉 w●…d ●…ather loose 〈◊〉 cor●…pt our churches , ●…hen gain & heale the●… . a little 〈◊〉 layed in a lump of dough , will sooner le●…n the whole lump , then the whole l●…mp w●…ll sw●…eten i●… . wee therefore find it safer , to squ●…re rough & unhew 〈◊〉 , bef●…e he ●…e layed n o the buil●…ing ; rath●…r then ●…o h●…nimer & hew the●… , ●…hen ●…hey lye ●…renly ●…n the build●…ng . and accordingly , w●… meanes ( w●…e u●…e y●… & 〈◊〉 such ●…s are ignorāt or scandalous . the publick min●…stery of the w●… , ●…pon w●…ch they are invitedly counsel , & required by wholsome l●…wes 〈◊〉 . a●… the word it is , wh●…ch is the powr of god to salvation , to the calling & 〈◊〉 ●…f sou●… . p●…ivate conferr●…nce , & conviction by the elders , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…f 〈◊〉 church : whom they doe the ●…ore respectively heark●…n unto , wh●…n they see no 〈◊〉 ●…f enjoying church-fellowship , or participation in the sacraments for 〈◊〉 , or their 〈◊〉 , till they approve their judgments to be sound & or●…hodox , & th●… lives ●…ubdued to some hope of a godly 〈◊〉 . wh●…t can classical 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 selfe do more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 case . the exception wrapp●…th up in ●…t a three fold domestical inconvenience : & each o●… them meet to be eschewed . disunion in families between each rel●…tion : d●…sappointmēt of 〈◊〉 , for want of opportunity in the governours of familyes to take accoūt of th●… heard by the●…r children & servants . disoursments of chargeable maintenance to the several churches , wherto the 〈◊〉 persons of their familyes are joyned . all which inconveniences either do no●… fall out in congregationall-church●… ; or are easily redressed . for none are o●…derly admitted into congregational-churches bu●… such as are well approved by good testimony , to be duly observant of familyrelations . or if any otherwise disposed should creep in they are either orde●…ly heal●… , or d●…ly removed in a way of 〈◊〉 . nor are they admitted , unl●…ss they can g●…e some good account of their pr●…iting by 〈◊〉 , ●…fore the elders & brethren of the church : & much more to their 〈◊〉 , & masters . godly tutors in the university can t●…ke an account of their pupils : & godly 〈◊〉 in the c●…ty can take account ●…f their children & servants , how they profit by the wo●…d they have heard in several churches : & that to the greater ed●…fication of the whole f●…mily , ●…y the variety of such administrations . bees may bring the more hony , & wax into the hive , when they are not l●…mited to one garden of flowers , but may fly abroad to man●… . no●…●…s any ch●…rge expected from 〈◊〉 , children , or servants to the 〈◊〉 of congregationall churches , 〈◊〉 her th●…n they ●…e 〈◊〉 w●…h personall 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wh●…h may enable th●… to 〈◊〉 of su●…h 〈◊〉 as they ha●…e , & 〈◊〉 such as they have not . god accepteth not robbery for a sacrific●… . and though a godly housholder may j●…stly take himselfe bound in conscience , to cr●…tybute to any such church , wherto 〈◊〉 wife , or children , or servants doe stand in relation : yet that will not aggr●…ate the burden of his charge , no more then if they were received members of the same church wherto himself is related . but why doe wee stand thus long to plead exemptions from exceptions ? the lord help all his faithfull servants ( whe●…her presbyteriall , or congregational . ) to judg & shame our selves before the lord for all our former complyances to greater enormity●… in church-government , then are to be found either in the congregationall , or presbyteriall way . and then surely , either the lord will cleare up his own will to us , & so frame , & subdue us all to one mind , & one way , ( ezck. . , . ) or else wee shall learn to beare one anothers burdens in a spirit of meekness . it will then doubtless be farr from us , so to attest the discipline of christ , as to detest the disciples of christ : so to contend for the seameless coat of christ , as to crucifi●… the living members of christ soe to divide our selves about church communion , as through breaches to open a wide gap for a deluge of antichristian & prophane malignity to swallow up both church & civil stat●… . what shall wee say more ? is difference about church-order beco●… the inlett of all the disorders in the kingdom ? hath the lord indeed left us to such hardness of heart , that church-government shall becom a snare to z●…on , ( as somtimes moses was t●… aegypt , exod. . . ) that wee cannot leave 〈◊〉 & contending about it , till the kingdom be destroyed ? did not the lord iesus , when he dedicated his sufferings for his church , 〈◊〉 his also unto his father , make it his earnest & only p●…ayer for us in this world , that wee all might be one in him ? iohn . . , , , . and is it possible , that he ( whom the father ●…eard alway●… , iohn . . . ) should not have this last most solemn prayer heard , & graunted ? or , shall it be graunted for all the saints elsewhere , & not for the saints in england ; so that amongst them disunion sh●…ll grow even about church-union , & communion ? if it be possible , for a little faith ( so much as a grain of mustardse●…d ) to remove a mountaine : is it not possible , for so much strength of faith , as is to be found in all the godly in the kingdom , 〈◊〉 remove those images of jealousie , & to cast those stumbling-blockes out of the way , which may hinder the free passage of brotherly love amongst brethren ? it is true indeed , the national covenant doth justly engage both partyes , faithfully to endeavour the utter extirpation of the antichristin hierarchy , & much more of all blasphemyes , heresies , & damnable errours . certainly , if congregational discipline be independent from the inventions of men , is it not much more independent from the delusions of satan ? what fellowship hath christ with belial ? light with darkness ? trueth with errour ? the faithfull iewes needed not the help of the 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●…y the temple of god : yea they rejected their help when it w●… offered , 〈◊〉 . the , , . a●…d if the congregationall w●…y be a way of trueth ( as wee believe ) & if the brethren that walk in it be zealous of the trueth , & hate every false way ( as by the rule of their ho●…y discipline they are instructed , iohn . , . ) then verily , there is no branch in the nationall coven●… , that engageth the covenanters to abh●…re either congregationall churches , or their way : which being duely adminstred , doe no less effectually extirpate the a●…christian hierarchy , & all blasphemies , heresyes , & perni●…ous errours , then the other way of discipline doeth , which is more generally & publickly received & ratifyed . but the lord iesus 〈◊〉 with ●…ll ou●… h●…ts in ●…ret : & ●…e 〈◊〉 is the king of his ch●…ch , let him ●…e ple●… to excer●…ise his kingly powr in our spirites , th●…t so his k●…ngdome may come into our churches in p●…rity & peace . amen amen chapter i. of the form of church-government ; and that it is one , immutable , and prescribed in the word of god . ecclesiasticall polity or church government , or discipline is nothing els , but that forme & order that is to be observed in the church of christ vpon earth , both for the constitution of it , & all the administrations that therein are to bee performed . church-government is considered in a double respect either in regard of the parts of government themselves , or necessary circumstances thereof . the parts of government are prescribed in the word , because the lord iesus christ the king and law-giver of his church , is no less faithfull in the house of god then was moses , who from the lord delivered a form & pattern of government to the children of israel in the old testament : and the holy scriptures are now also soe perfect , as they are able to make the man of god perfect & throughly furnished vnto euery good work ; & therefore doubtless ●…o the well ordering of the house of god the partes of church-government are all of them exactly described in the word of god being parts or means of instituted worship according to the second commandement : & therefore to continue one & the same , vnto the apearing of our lord iesus christ as a kingdom that cannot be shaken , untill hee shall deliver it up unto god , euen the father . soe that it is not left in the power of men , officers , churches , or any state in the world to add , or diminish , or alter any thing in the least measure ther●…in . the necessary circumstances , as time & place &c belonging unto order and decency , are not soe left unto men as that under pretence of them , they may thrust their own inventions upon the churches being circumscribed in the word with many generall ●…imitations , where they are determined in respect of the matter to be neither worship it self , nor circumstances seperable from worship in respect of their end , they must be done vnto edification : in respect of the manner , decently , and in order , according to the nature of the things them selves , & civill , & church custom . doth not euen nature it selfe teach you ? ye●… they , are in some sort determined particularly , namely that they be done in such a manner , as all circumstances considered , is most expedient for edification : so , as if there bee no errour of man concerning their determination , the determining of them is to be accounted as if it were divine . chap : ii. of the nature of the catholick church in generall , & in speciall , of a particular visible church . the catholick church , is the whole company of those that are elected , redeemed , & in time effectually called from the state of sin & death vnto a state of grace , & salvation in iesus christ . this church is either triumphant , or militant . triumphant , the number of them who are gloryfied in heaven : militant , the number of them who are conflicting with their enemies vpon earth . . this militant church is to bee considered as invisible , & visible . invisible , in respect of their relation wherin they stand to christ , as a body unto the head , being united unto him , by the spirit of god , & faith in their hearts : visible , in respect of the profession of their faith , in their persons , & in particuler churches : & so there may be acknowledged an universall visible church . the members of the militant visible church , considered either as not yet in church-order , or as walking according to the church-order of the gospel . in order , & so besides the spiritual union , & communion , common to all belivers , they injoy more over an union & communion ecclesiasticall-politicall : so wee deny an universall visible church . the state of the members of the militant visible church walking in order ▪ was either before the law , oeconomical , that is in families ; or under the law , national : or , since the comming of christ , only congregational . ( the term independent , wee approve not : ) therfore neither national , provincial , not classical . a congregational-church , is by the inst●…titution of christ a part of the militant-visible-church , consistin●… of a company o●… saints by calling , un●…ed into one body by 〈◊〉 holy covenant , for the publick worship of god , & th●… mutuall edification one of another , in the fellowship o●… the lord iesus . chap : iii. of the matter of the visible church both inr●…spect of quality and quantity . the matter of a visible church are saints by calling . by saints , wee understand , such , as haue not only attained the knowledge of the principles of religion , & are free from gr●…s & open scand●…ls , but also do together with the profession of their faith & repentance , walk i●… blameles obedience to the word , so as that in charitable discretion they may be accounted saints by calling , ( though perhaps some or more of them be unsound , & hypocrites inwardly●… ) bec●…se the members of such particular churches are commonly by the holy ghost called saints & faithfull brethren in christ , and sundry c●…ch es haue been reproued for receiving , & suffering such persons to c●…ntinu in fellowship amongst them , as have been offensive & scandalous : the name of god also by this means is blasphemed : & the holy things of god defiled & prophaned , the hearts of godly gri●…ved : & the wicked themselves hardned : & holpen forward to ●…nation . the example of such doeth endanger the sanctity of others . a litle leaven leaveneth the whole lump . the children of such , who are also holy . the members of churches though orderly constituted , may in time degenerate , & grow corrupt & scandalous , which though they ought not to be ●…olerated in the church , yet their continu●…ce ●…erein , through the defect of the execution of discipline & ju●… 〈◊〉 , doth not immediately d●…ssolv the being of the church , as appeares in the church of israell , & the churches of g●…latia , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 . yet wee conceive , the substance of it is kept , where there is 〈◊〉 real agreement & consent , of a company of faithful persons to meet constantly together in one congregation , for the publick worship of god , & their mutuall edification : which real agreement & consent they doe express by their constant practise in comming together for the publick worship of god , & by their religious subjection unto the ordinances of god the●…e : the rather , if wee doe consider how scripture covenants have been entred into , not only expressly by word of mouth , but by s●…crifice ; by hand writing , & seal ; & also somtimes by silent co●…sent , without any writing , or expression of words at all . this forme then being by mutuall covenant , it followeth , it is not faith in the heart , nor the profession of that faith , nor cohabitation , nor baptisme ; not faith in the heart ? becaus that is invisible : not a bare profession ; because that declareth them no more to be members of one church then of another : not cohabitation ; athiests or infidels may dwell together with beleivers : not baptism ; because it presupposseth a church estate , as circumcision in the old testament , which gave no being unto the church , the church being before it , & in the wilderne , without it seals presuppose a covenant already in being , one person is a compleat subiect of baptism : but one person is uncapable of being a church . all believers ought , as god giveth them opportunity there unto , to endeavour to joyn themselves unto a particular church & that in respect of the honour of jesus christ , in his example , & institution , by the professed acknowledgment of , & subiection unto the order & ordinances of the gospel : as also in respect of their good of communion founded upon their visible union , & containd in the promises of christs special presence in the thurch : whence they have fellowship with him , & in him one with another : also for the keeping of them in the way of gods commandm●…nts , & recovering of them in case of wandring , ( which all christs sheep are subiect to in this life ) , being unable to returne of themselves ; together with the benefit of their mutual edification , and of their posterity , th●…t they may not be ●…ut of from t●…e priviledges of the covenan●… , otherwis , if a believer offends , he remaines destitute of the remedy provi●…ed in that behalf , & should all believers neglect this duty of ●…yning to all particular congregations : it might follow therupon , that 〈◊〉 should h●…ve no visible political c●…rches upon earth , chap v. of the first subject of church powr or , to whom church powr doth first 〈◊〉 . the first subject of church powr , is eyther supream , or subordinat , & ministerial . the supream ( by way of gift from the father ) is the lord iesus christ , the ministerial , is either extraordinary ; as the apostles , prophets , & evangilists : or ordinary ; as every particular congregational church . ordinary church powr , is either the power of office , that is such as is proper to the eldership : or , power of priviledge , such as be longs unto the brotherhood ▪ the latter , is in the brethren formally , & immediately from christ , that is , so as it may according to order be acted or excercised immediately by themselves : the former , is not in them form●…lly or immediately , & therfore cannot be acted or excercised immediately by them , but is said to be in them , in that they design the persons unto office , who only are to act , or to excercise this power . chap vi . of the officers of the church , & especially of pastors & teachers . a church being a company of people combined together by covenant for the worship of god , it appeareth therby , that there may be the 〈◊〉 & being of a church without any officers , seeing there is bot●… 〈◊〉 and matter of a church , which is implyed , when it i●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordained elders in 〈◊〉 ●…urch , 〈◊〉 , though 〈◊〉 be not 〈◊〉 necess●…ry , to the simple being of churches , when th●…y be 〈◊〉 : yet ordinarily to their calling they are ; and to their well being : and therfore the lord iesus out of his tender compassion hath appointed , and ordained officers which he would not have done , if they had not been usefull & need full for the church ; yea , being ascended into heaven , he received gifts for men , and gave gifts to men , whereof officers for the church are justly accounted no small parts ; they being to continue to the end of the world , and for the perfecting of all the saints . these officers were either extraordinary , or ordinary , extraordinary as apostles , prphets , evangilists , ordinary as elders & 〈◊〉 . the apostles , prophets , & evangelists , as they were called extraordinarily by christ , so their office ended with themselves whence it is , that paul directing timothy how to carry along church-administrations , giveth no direction about the choice or course of apostles , prophe●… , or evange●…sts , but only of elders , & deacons . & when paul was to take his last leave of the church of ephe●…s , he commited the care of feeding the church to ●…o ther , but unto the elders of that church . the like c●…rge doth 〈◊〉 commit to the elders . of 〈◊〉 ( who are also in scripture called ●…shops ) some attend chiefly to the ministry of the word , a●… the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 teachers others , attend especially unto r●…le , who are therfore called rul●…ng elders . the office of pastor & teacher , appears to be distinct . the pastors special work is , to attend to exh●…tation : & therein to administer a word of wisdom the teacher is to attend to d●…mo , & therein to administer a word of knowledg : & either of them to administer the seales of that covenant , unto the dispensation wherof the are alike called : as also to execute the censu●…e , being but a kind of application of the word , the preaching of which , together with the application therof they are alike charged withall . and for as much as both pastors & teachers are given by christ for the perfecting of the saints , & edifying of his body , which saints , & body of christ is his church ; therfore wee account pastors & teacher , to be both of them church-officers , & not the pastor for the church : & the teacher only for the schools , though this wee gladly acknowledg , that schoole , are both lawfull , profitable , & necessary for the trayning up of such in good litrature , or learning , as may afterwards be called forth unto office of pastor or teacher in the church . chap vii . of ruling elders & deacons . the ruling elders office is distinct from the office of pastor & teacher . the ruling elders are not so called to exclude the pastors & teachers from ruling , because ruling & govern●…ng is common to these with the other ; wheras attending to teach and preach the word is peculiar unto the former . the ruling e●…er , work is to joyn with the pastor & teacher in those acts of spiritual rubc which are distinct from the ministry of the word & sacraments committed to them . of which sort , these be , as followeth . to open & shut●… the dores of gods house , by the admission of members approved by the church : by ordination of officers chosen by the church : & by excommunication of notorious & obstinate offenders renounced by the church : & by restoring of poenitents , forgivē by the church . ii to call the church together when there is occasion , & seasonably to dismiss them agayn . iii to prepare matters in private , that in publick they may be carried an end with less trouble , & more speedy dispatch . iv to moderate the carriage of all matter , in the church assembled . as , to propound matters to the church , to order the season of speech & silence ; & to pronounce sentence according to the minde of christ , with the consent of the church . v to be guides & leaders to the church , in all matters what-soever , pertaining to church administrations & actions . vi to see that none in the church live inordinately out of rank & place ; without a calling , or idlely in their calling . vii to prevent & heal such offences in life , or in doctrin ; as might corrupt the church . iix to feed the flock of god with a word of admonition . ix and as they shall be sent for , to visit , & to pray over their sick brethren . x & at other times as opportunity shall serve therunto . the office of a deacon is instituted in the church by the lord jesus . somtime they are called helps . the scripture telleth us , how they should be qualified : grave , not double tougued , not given to much wine , not given to filthy . lucre . they must first be proved & then use the office of a deacon , being found blameless . the office and work of the deacons is to receive the offrings of the church , gifts given to the church , & to keep the treasury of the church : & therewith to serve the tables which the church is to provide for : as the lords table , the table of the ministers , & of such as are in necessitie , to whom they are to distribute in simplicity . the office therefore being limited unto the care of the temporall good things of the church , it extends not unto the attendance upon , & administration of the spirituall . things thereof , as the word , and sacraments , or the like . the ordinance of the apostle , & practice of the church , commends the lords day as a fit time for the contributions of the saints . the instituting of all these officers in the church , is the work of god himselfe ; of the lord iesus christ ; of the holy ghost . & therefore such officers 〈◊〉 he hath not appointed , are altogether unlawfull either to be placed in the church , or to be retained therin , & are to be looked at as humane creatures , meer inventions & appointments of man , to the great dishonour of christ jesus , the lord of his house , the king of his church , whether popes , patriarkes , cardinals , arch-bishops , lord 〈◊〉 , arch-●…eacons , officials , commissaries , & the like . these & the rest of that hierarchy & retinue , not being plants of the lords planting , shall all be certeinly be rooted out , & cast forth . the lord hath appointed ancient widdows , ( where they may be had ) to minister in the church , in giving attendance to the sick , & to give succour unto them , & others , in the like necessities . chap : iix . of the electon of church-officers . no man may take the honour of a church-officer unto himself , but he that was called of god , as was aaron . calling unto office , is either immediate , by christ himself : such was the call of the apostles , & prophets this manner of calling ended with them , as hath been said : or mediate , by the church . it is meet , that before any be ordained or chosen officers , they should first be 〈◊〉 & prove●… ; because hands are n●…t suddenly to be laid upon any , & both elders & deacons must be of honest & good repo●…t . the things in respect of which they are to be tryed , are those gif●…s & virtues which the scripture requireth in men , that are to be elected into such places . viz , that elders must be blameles●… , sober , apt to teach & endued with such other qualifications as are layd downe , tim: & . t●…t : . to . deacons to be fitted , as is directed , acts. , . tim: . , to . officers are to be called by such churches , whereunto they are to min●…ster . of such moment is the preservation of this power , that the churches excercised it in the presence of the apostles . a church being free cannot become subject to any , but by a free election ; yet when such a people do chuse any to be over them in the lord , then do they becom●… subject , & most willingly submit to their ministry in the lord , whom they have so chosen . and if the church have powr to chuse their officers & ministers , then in case of manifest unworthyness , & delinquency they have powr also to depose them . for to open , & shut : to chuse & refuse ; to constitute in office , & remove from office : are acts belonging unto the same powr . wee judge it much conducing to the wel-being , & communion of churches , that where it may conveniently be done , neighbour-churches be adv●…sed withall , & their help made use of in the triall of church-officers , in order to their choyce . the choyce of such church-officers belongeth not to the civil-magistrates , as such , or diocesan-bishops , or patrones : for of these or any such like , the scripture is wholly silent , as having any power therin . chap : ix . of ordination , & imposition of hands . church-officers are not only to be chosen by the church , but also to be ordeyned by imposition of hands , & prayer . with which at the ordination of elders , fasting also is to be joyned . this ordination wee account nothing else , but the solemn putting of a man into his place & office in the church wher-unto he had right before by election , being like the installing of a magistrat in the common wealth . ordination therefore is not to go before , but to follow election , the essence & substance of the outward calling of an ordinary officer in the church , doth not consist in his ordination , but in his voluntary & free election by the church , & in his accepting of that election , wher-upon is founded the relation between pastor & flock , between such a minister , & such a people . ordination doth not constitute an officer , nor give him the essentials of his office . the apostles were elders , without imposition of hands by men : paul & barnabas were officers , before that imposition of hands . acts. . . the posterity of levi were priests , & the church that had powr to receive him into their fellowship , hath also the same powr to cast him out , that they have concerning any other member . church-government , or rule , is placed by christ in the officers of the church , who are therefore called rulers , while they rule with god : yet in case of mal-administration , they are subject to the power of the church , according as hath been said before . the holy ghost frequently , yea alwayes , where it mentioneth church-rule , & church-government , ascribeth it to elders : wheras the work & duty of the people is expressed in the phrase of obeying their elders ; & submiting themselves unto them in the lord : so as it is manifest , that an organick or compleat church is a body politick , consisting of some that are governors , & some that are governed , in the lord . the powr which christ hath committed to the elders is to feed & rule the church of god , & accordingly to call the church together upon any weighty occasion , when the members so called , without just cause , may not refuse to come : nor when they are come , depart before they are dismissed : nor speak in the church , before they have leave from the elders : nor continue so doing , when they require silence , nor may they oppose nor contradict the judgment or sentence of the elders , without sufficient & weighty cause becaus such practices are manifestly contrary unto order , & government , & in-lets of disturbance , & tend to confusion . it belongs also unto the elders to examine any officers , or members , before they be received of the church : to receive the accusations brought to the church , & to prepare them for the churches hearing . in handling of offences & other matters before the church they have powr to declare & publish the counsell & will of god touching the same , & to pronounce sentence with consent of the church : lastly they have powr , when they dismiss the people , to bless them in the name of the lord . this powr of government in the elders , doth not any wise prejudice the powr of priviledg in the brotherhood ; as neither the powr of priviledg in the brethren , doth prejudice the power of government in the elders ; but they may sweetly agree together , as wee may see in the example of the apostles furnished with the greatest church-powr , who took in the concurrence & consent of the brethren in church-administrations . also that scripture , cor . . & chap : . doe declare , that what the churches were to act & doe in these matters , they were to doe in a way of obedience , & that not only to the direction of the apostles , but also of their ordinary elders . from the premisses , namely , that the ordinary powr of government belonging only to the elders , powr of priviledg remaineth with the brotherhood , ( as powr of judgment in masters of censure , & powr of liberty , in matters of liberty : ) it followeth , that in an organick church , & right administration ; all church acts , proceed after the manner of a mixt administration , so as no church act can be consummated , or perfected without the consent of both . chap : xi . of the maintenance of church officers . the apostle concludes , that necessary & sufficient maintenance is due unto the ministers of the word : from the law of nature & nations , from the law of moses , the equity thereof , as also the rule of common reason , moreover the scripture doth not only call elders labourers , & workmen , but also speaking o●… them doth say , that the labourer is worthy of his hire : & requires that he which is taught in the word , should communicate to him , in all good things ; & mentions it as an ordinance of the lord , that they which preach the gospel , should live of the gospel ; & forbideth the muzl●…ng of the mouth of the ox , that treadeth out the corn . the scriptures alledged requiring this maintenance as a bounden duty , & du●…●…eci , & not as a matter of almes , & free gift therefore people are not at liberty to doe or not to doe , what & when they pleas in this matter , no more then in any other commanded duty , & ordinance of the lord : but ought of duty , to minister of their ca●…ail ●…ngs to them , that labour amongst them in the word & doctrine , as well as they ought to pay any other work men their wages , or to discharge & satisfie their other debts , or to submit themselves to observe any other ordinance of the lord . the apostle , gal : , . injoyning that he which is taught communicate to him that teacheth ●…ad good things : doth not leave it arbitrary , what or how much a man shall give , or in what prop●…on . but even the later , as well as the former , is prescribed & appointed by the lord . not only members of churches , but all that are taught in in the word , are to contribute unto him that teacheth , in all good things . in case that congregations are defective in their contributions , the deacons are to call upon them to doe their duty : if their call sufficeth not , the church by her powr is to require it of their members , & where church-powr through the corruption of men , doth not , or can̄ot attaine the end , the magistrate is to see ministry be duely provided for , as appeares from the commended example of nehemiah . the magistrates are nursing fathers , & nursing mothers , & stand charged with the custody of both tables ; because it is better to prevent a scandal , that it may not come & easier also , then to remove it when it is given . it s most suitable to rule , that by the churches care , each man should know his proportion according to rule , what he should doe , before he doe it , that so his iudgment & heart may be satisfied in what he doeth , & just offence prevented in what is done . chap : xii . of admission of members into the church . the doors of the churches of christ upon earth , doe not by gods appointment stand so wide open , that all sorts of people good or bad , may freely enter therein at their pleasure ; but such as are admitted therto , as members ought to be examined & tryed first ; whether they be fit & meet to be received into church-society , or not . the evnuch of aethiopia , before his admission was examined by philip , whether he did beleive on jesus christ with all his heart the auged of the church at ephesus is commended , for trying such as said they were apostles & were not . there is like reason for trying of them that profess themselves to be beleivers . the officers are charged with the keeping of the doors of the church , & therfore are in a special man̄er to make try all of the fitnes of such who enter . twelve angels are set at the gates of the tem ple , lest such as were ceremonially unclean should enter therinto . the things which are requisite to be found in all church members , are , repentance from sin , & saith in jesus christ . and therfore these are the things wherof men are to be examined , at their admission into the church , & which then they must profess & hold forth in such sort , as may satisfie rationall charity , that the things are there indeed . iohn baptist admitted men to baptism , confessing & bewayling their sinns : & of other it is said , that they came , & confessed , & shewed their deeds . the weakest measure of faith is to be accepted in t●…ose that desire to be admitted into the church : becaus weak christians if sincere , have the substance of that faith , repentance & holiness which is required in church members : & such have most need of the ordinances for their confirmation & growth in grace . the lord jesus would not quench the smoaking flax , nor breake the bruised reed , but gather the tender lambes in his arms , & carry them gently in his bosome . such charity & tenderness is to be used , as the weakest christian if sincere , may not be excluded , nor discouraged . severity of examination is to be avoyded . in case any through excessive fear , or other infirmity , be unable to make their personal relation of their spirituall estate in publick , it is sufficient that the elders having received private satisfaction , make relation therof in publick before the church , they testifying their assents therunto ; this being the way that tendeth most to edification . but wheras persons are of better abilityes , there it is most expedient , that they make their relations , & confessions personally with their own mouth , as david professeth of himselfe . a personall & publick confession , & declaring of gods manner of working upon the soul , is both lawfull , expedient , & usefull , in sundry respects , & upon sundry grounds . those three thousands . acts. . . . before they were admitted by the apostles , did manifest that they were pricked in their hearts at peters sermon , together with earnest desire to be delivered from their sinns , which now wounded their consciences , & their ready receiving of the word of promise and exhortation . wee are to be ready to ●…der a reason of the hope that is in us , to every one that asketh us : th●…fore wee must be able and ready upon any occasion to declare & shew our repentance for sinn , faith unfamed ; & effectuall calling , because these are the reason of a well grounded hope . i have not hidden thy righteousness from the great congregation . psal : . . this profession of faith & repentance , as it must be made by such at their admission , that were never in church-society before : so nothing hindreth , but the same way also be performed by such as have formerly been members of some other church , & the church to which they now joyn themselves as members , may lawfully require the same . those three thousand . acts. . which made their confession , were mēbers of the church of the jewes before , so were they that were baptised by john . churches may err in their admission : & persons regularly admitted , may fall into offence otherwise if churches might obtrude their members , or if church-members might obtrude themselves upon other churches , without due tryall , the matter so requiring , both the liberty of churches would hereby be infringed , in that they might not examine those , concerning whose fitness for communion , they were unsatisfied : & besides the infringing of their liberty , the churches themselves would ūavoidably be corrupted , & the ordinances defiled , whilst they might not refuse , but must receive the unworthy : which is contrary unto the scripture , teaching that all churches are sisters , & therfore equall . the like tryall is to be required from such members of the church , as were born in the same , or received their membership , & were baptized in their infancy , or minority , by vertue of the covenāt of their parents , when being grown up unto yeares of discretion they shall desire to be made partakers of the lords supper : unto which , because holy things must not be given unto the unworthy , therfore it is requisit , that these as well as others , should come to their tryall & examīation , & manifest their faith & repentance by an open profession therof , before they , are received to the lords supper , & otherwise not to be be admitted there unto . yet these church-members that were so born , or received in their childhood , before they are capable of being made partakes of fall cōmunion , have many priviledges which others , not church-mēbers ) ha●…not ; they are in covenant with god ; have the seale therof upon th●… 〈◊〉 baptisme ; & so if not regenerated , yet are in a more hopefull way of attayning regenerating grace , & all the spiritual blessings both of the covenāt & seal ; they are also under c●…rch-watch , & consequently subject , to the reprehensions , ad non●…tions , & censures therof , for their healing and amendment , as need sh●…ll require . chap : xiii . of church-members their removall from one church to another , & of letters of recōmendation , & dismission . church-members may not remove or depart from the church , & so one from another as they please , nor without just & weighty cause but ought to live & dwell together : for as much as they are cōmanded , not to forsake the assembling of themselves together . such departure ▪ tends to the dissolution & ruine of the body : as the pulling of stones , & pe●…ces of timber from the building , & of members from the naturall body , tend to the destruction of the whole . it is thērfore the duty of church-members , in such times & places when counsell may be had , to consult with the church wherof they are mēmbers , about their removall ; that accordingly they having their approbation , may be incouraged or otherwise desist . they who are joyned with consent , should not depart without consent , except forced therunto . if a members departure be manifestly unsafe , and sinfull , the church may not consent therunto : for in so doing , they should not act in saith : & should pertake with him in his sinn . if the case be doubtfull , & the person not to be perswaded , it seemeth best to leave the matter unto god , & not forcibly to detayn him . just reasōs for a mēbers removall of himselfe from the church are , i if a man cānot continue without partakig in sinn . ii in case of personall persecution , so paul departed from the desciples at damascus . also , in case of generall persecution , when all are scattered . iii in case of real , & not only pretended , want of competent subsistence , a door being opened for better supply in another place , together with the meanes of spirituall edification . in these , or like cases , a member may lawfully remove , & the church cannot lawfully detayne him . to seperate from a church , eyther out of contempt of their holy fellowship , or out of 〈◊〉 or for greater inlargements with just greife to the church ; or out of 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; & out of a spirit of 〈◊〉 in respect of some unkindness , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only concei●…ed , or indeed , in the church which might & should be tolèrated & heared with a spirit of meekness , & of which evill the church is not yet cōvinced , ( though perhaps himselfe bee ) nor admonished : for these or like reasons to withdraw from publick cōmunion , in word , or seales , or censures , is unlawfull & sinfull . such members as have orderly removed their habitation ought to joyn themselves unto the church in order , where they doe inhabit if it may bee otherwise , they can neyther perform the dutyes , nor receive the priviledges of members ; such an example tolerated in some , is apt to corrupt others ; which if many should follow , would threaten the dissolution & confusion of churches , contrary to the scripture . order requires , that a member thus removing , have letters testimonia●… ; & of 〈◊〉 from the church wherof he yet is , unto the church wherunto he desireth to be joyned , lest the church sh●…uld be deluded ; that the church may receive him in faith ; & not be corrupted by receiving deceivers , & false brethren . untill the person dismissed be received into another church , he ceaseth ●…ot by his letters of dismission to be a member of the church wherof he was . the church can̄ot make a member no member but by excōmunication . if a member be called to remove only for a time , where a church is , letters of recommendation are requisite ; & sufficient for cōmunion with that church , in the ordinance , & in their watch : as phoebe , a servāt of the church at cenc●…ea , had letters writtē for her to the church of rome , that shee might be received , as becō●…eth saints . such letters of recommendation & 〈◊〉 were written for apollos : for marcus to the col●…siā ; for phoebe to the romāe●… ; for sūdry others to other churches , & the apostle telleth u●… , that some persons , not sufficiently known otherwise , have special need of such letter●… , though he for his part had no need therof the u●…e of them ●…s to be a benefit , & help to the party for whom they are writtē ; & for the furthering of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 amongst the saints in the pl●… whe●…to 〈◊〉 goeth ; & the d●…e sat●…faction of them in their receiving of h●…m . chap : xiv . of excommunication & other censures . the censures of the church , are appointed by christ , for the prevent●…ng , removing , & healing of offences in the church : for the reclayming & gayning of offending brethren : for the deterring of others from the like o●…eces : for purging out the leaven which may infect the whole lump : for vindicating the honour of christ , & of his church , & the holy profession of the gospel : & for preventing of the wrath of god , that may justly fall upon the church , if they should suffer his covenant , & the s●…ales therof , to be prophaned by notorious & obstinate offenders . if an offence be priv●… ( one brother offending another the offender is to goe , & acknowledg his repentāce for it unto his offended brother , who is then to forgive him , but if the ●…ffender neglect or refu●…e to doe it , the brother offēded is to goe , & cōvince & admonish him of it , between themselves privatly : ●…f therupon the offender bee brought to repent of his offēce , the admonisher hath won his brother , but if the offender heare not his brother , the brother offended is to take with him one or two more , that in the mouth of two or three witneses , every word may be established , ( whether the word of admonition if the offender receive it , or the word of complaint , if he refuse it : ) for if hè refuse it , the offēded brother is by the mouth of the elders to tell the church . & if he heare the church . & declare the same by pe●…tēt confession , he is recovered & gayned ; & if the church discern him to be willing to hear , yet not fully cōv●…ced of his offence , as in case ●…f heresy ; they are to dispēce to him a publick admonition ; which declaring the offēder to ly under the publ●…ck offence of the church , doth t●…e by with-hold or suspend him from the holy fellowsh●…p of the lords s●…pper , till his offence be removed by penitent cōfession . if he ●…ll 〈◊〉 obstinate they are to call him out by excōn unic●…tion . but if the offēce be more 〈◊〉 at first , & of a more ●…ous 〈◊〉 , to wit , such as are condē●…ed by the light of nature ; then the church w●…thout such graduall proceeding , is to cast out the offender , from ther●… holy cōmunior , for the further mortifying of his 〈◊〉 & the healing of his soule , in the day of the lord jesus . in dealing with an offēder , great care is to be takē , that wee be neither overstrict or rigorous , nor too indulgent or remiss : our proceeding here●… ou●…ht to be with a spirit of ●…ekness , considering our selves l●…st wee also be tēpted ; & that the best of us have need of much forg 〈◊〉 from the lord . yet the winīg & healīg of the offēders soul , being the end of the●…e ēdeavours , wee must not daub with ūtempered morter , nor heal the wounds of our brethren sleightly . on some have comp●…ō others save with fear . while the offender remayns excōmunicate , the church is to refrayn from all member-like communion with him in spirituall things , & also from all familiar cōmuniō with him in civil things , farther then the necessity of natural , or domestical , or civil relatiōs doe require : & are therfore to for bear to eat & drike with him , that he may be 〈◊〉 . excōmunication being a spirituall punishment , it doth not prejudice the excōmunicate in , nor deprive him of his civil rights , & therfore toucheth not princes , or other magistrates , in point of their civil dignity or authority . and , the excōmunicate being but as a publican & a heathen , heathens being lawfully permitted to come to hear the word in church assemblyes ; wee acknowledg therfore the like liberty of hearing the word , may be permitted to persons excommunicate , that is permitted unto heathen . and because wee are not without hope of his recovery , wee are not to account him as an enemy but to admonish him as a brother . if the lord sanctifie the censure to the offender , so as by the grace of christ , he doth testifie his repentance , with humble cōfession of his sinn , & judging of himselfe , giving glory unto god ; the church is then to forgive him , & to comfort him , & to restore him to the wonted brotherly communion , which formerly he injoyed with them . the suffring of prophane or scandalous livers to continue in fellowship , & partake in the sacraments , is doubtless a great sinn in those that have power in their hands to redress it ; & doe it not . nevertheless , inasmuch as christ & his apostles in their times , & the prophets & other godly in theirs , did lawfully partake of the lords commanded ordinances in the jewish church , & neyther taught nor practised seperation from the same , though unworthy ones were permitted therin ; & inasmuch as the faithfull in the church of corinth , wherin were many unworthy persons , & practises , are never commanded to absent themselves from the sacramēts , because of the same : therfore the godly in like cases , are not presently to seperate . as seperation from such a church wherin pr●…phāe & scandalous livers are tolerated , is not presently necessary : so for the members therof , otherwise worthy , hereupon to absta●…n from communicating with such a church , in the participation of the sacraments , is unlawfull . for as it were unreasonable for an in̄ocent person to be punished , for the faults of other , wherin he hath no hand , & wherunto he gave no consent : soe is it more unreasonable , that a godly man should neglect duty , & punish himselfe in not cōming for his portion in the blessing of the seales , as he ought , because others are suffered to come , that ought not : especially , considering that himselfe doth neyther consent to their sinn , nor to their approching to the ordinance in their sinn , nor to the neglect of others who should put them away , & doe not : but on the contrary doth heartily mourn for these things , modestly & seasonably stirr up others to doe their duty . if the church c●…nnot be reformed , they may use their liberty , as is specified , chap . sect : . but this all the godly are bound unto , even every one to do his indeavour , according to his powr & place , that the unworthy may be duely proceeded against , by the church to whom this matter doth appertaine . chap : xv . of the cōmunion of churches one with another . although churches be distinct , & therfore may not be confoūded one with another : & equall , & therfore have not dominion one over another : yet all the churches ought to preserve church-communion one with another , because they are all united unto christ , not only as a mysticall , but as a politicall head ; whence is derived a communion suitable therunto . the communion of churches is exercised sundry wayes . i by way of mutuall care in taking thought for one anothers wellfare .. ii by way of consultation one with another , when wee have occasion to require the judgment & counsell of other churches , touching any person ▪ or cause wherwith they may be better acquainted then our selves . as the church of antioch consulted with the apostles , & elders of the church at ierusalem , about the question of circumcision of the gentiles , & about the false teachers that broached that doctrine . in which case , when any church wanteth light or peace amongst themselves , it is a way of communion of churches ( according to the word ) to meet t●…ether by their elders & other messengers in a synod , to consider & argue the points in doubt , or d●…fference , & haveing found out the way of truth & peace , to commend the same by their letters & messengers to the churches , whom the same may concern . but if a church be rent with divisions amongst themselves , or ly under any open scandal , & yet refuse to consult with other churches , for healing or removing of the same ; it is a matter of just offence both to the lord jesus , & to other churches , as bewraying too much want of mercy & faithfulness , not to seek to bind up the breaches & wounds of the church & brethren ; & therfore the state of such a church calleth aloud upon other churches , to excercise a fuller act of brotherly communion , to witt , by way of admonition . iii a third way then of cōmunion of churches is by way of admonition , to witt , in case any publick offēce be found in a church , which they either discern not , or are slow in proceeding to use the meāes for the removing & healing of . paul had no authority over peter , yet when he saw peter not walking with a right foot , he publickly rebuked him before the church : though churches have no more authority one over another , then one apostle had over another ; yet as one apostle might admonish another , so may one church admonish another , & yet without usurpation . in which case , if the church that lyeth under offence , do not harken to the church which doth admonish her , the church is to aquait other neighbour-churches with that offēce , which the offending church still lyeth under , together with their neglect of the brotherly admonition given unto them ; wherupon those other churches are to joyn in seconding the admonitiō formerly givē : and if still the offēding church continue in obstinacy & impenitency , they may forbear communion with them ; & are to proceed to make use of the help of a synod , or counsell of neighbour-churches walkig orderly ( if a greater can̄ot conveniētly be had ) for their conviction . if they hear not the synod , the synod having declared them to be obstinate , particular churches , approving & accepting of the judgmēt of the synod , are to declare the sentence of non-cōmunion respectively concerning them : & therupon out of a religious care to keep their own communion pure , they may justly withdraw themselves from participation with them at the lords table , & from such other acts of holy cōm●…ion , as the communion of churches doth otherwise allow , & require . nevertheless , if any members of such a church as lyeth under publick offence ; do●… not consent to the offence of the church , but doe in due sort beare witness against it , they are still to be received to wonted communion : for it is not equall , that the in●…cent should suffer with the offensive . yea furthermore ; if such innocent members after due wayting in the use of all good meanes for the healing of the offence of their ●…wn church , shall at last ( with the allowāce of the counsel of ne gh●…our-churches ) withdraw from the fellowship of their own ch●…ch 〈◊〉 offer themselves to the fellowship of another ; wee judge it lawll for the other church to receive them being otherwise fitt ) as if they had been orderly dismissed to them from their own churc●… . iv a fourth way of communion of churches , is by way of particip●…n : the members of one church occasion●…lly comming unto another , wee willingly admitt t●…em to 〈◊〉 with us at the lords t●…le , it being the seale of our communion not only with christ , nor o●…ly with the members of our own church , but also with all the churches of the saints : in which regard , wee refuse not to baptize their children presented to us , if either their own minister be absent , or such a fruite of holy fellowsh●…p be desired with us . in like case s●…ch churches as are furnished with more ministers then one , doe willingly afford one of their own ministers to supply the place of an absent or s●…ck minister of another church for a needfull season . v a fifth way of church-communion is , by way of ●…mendation when a member of one church hath occasion to reside in another church ; if but for a season , wee cōmend him to their watchf●…ll ffellowsh●…p by letters of recommendation : but if he be 〈◊〉 to settle his abode there , wee commit him according to h●…s desire , to the ffellowship of their covenant , by letters of d●…smission . vi a sixt way of church-communion , is in case of ne●… , to minister reliefe & succour one unto another : 〈◊〉 of able members to furnish them with officers : or of outward ●…pport to the necessityes of poorer churches ; as did the 〈◊〉 of the gentiles contribute liberally to the poor s●…ints at ierusalem . when a compāy of beleivers purpose to gather into church fellowship , it is requisite for their sa●…er proceeding , & the maintaining of the communion of churches , that they sign●…fie their intent unto the neighbour-churches , walking according unto the order of the gospel , & desire their presence , & help , & right hand of fellowship which they ought readily to give unto them , when their is no just cause of excepting against their proceedings . besides these severall wayes of communion , there is also a way of propagation of churches ; when a church shall grow too numerous , it is a way , & fitt season , to propagate one church out of an other , by sending forth such of their mēbers as are willing to remove , & to procure some officers to them , as may enter with them into church-estate amongst themselves : as bees , when the hive is too full , issue forth by swarmes , & are gathered into other hives , soe the churches of christ may doe the same upon like necessity ; & therin hold forth to thē the right hand of fellowship , both in their gathering into a church ; & in the ordination of their officers . chap : xvi . of synods . synods orderly assembled , & rightly proceeding according to the pattern , acts. . wee acknowledg as the ordinance of christ : & though not absolutely necessary to the being , yet many times , through the iniquity of men , & perversness of times necessary to the wel-being of churches , for the establishment of truth , & peace therin . synods being spirituall & ecclesiasticall assemblyes , are therfore made up of spirituall & ecclesiasticall causes . the next efficient cause of them under christ , is the powr of the churches , sending forth their elders , other messengers ; who being mett together in the name of christ , are the matter of the synod : & they in argueing , debating & determining matters of religion according to the word , & publishing the same to the churches whom it concerneth , doe put forth the proper & formall acts of a synod ; to the convictiō of errours , & heresyes , & the establishment of truth & peace in the churches , which is the end of a synod . magistrates , have powr to call a synod , by calling to the churches to send f●…rth their elders & other messengers , to counsel & assist them in matters of rel●… 〈◊〉 : ●…t ye●…t the constituting of a synod , is a church act & may be t●…d by the churches , even when civil magistrates may be enemyes to churches & to churchassemblyes . it bel●…ngeth unto synod , & counsel●… , to debate & determine controversies of faith , & ca●… of cons●… ; to cleare from the word holy directions for the ●…ly worsh●…p of god , & good government of the church ; to beare wit●… against ●…al administration & corruption in doctrine or man̄ers in any particular church , & to give directions for the reformation therof : not to exercise church-censures in way of discipline , nor any other act of church-authority or jurisdiction : which that presidentiall synod did forbeare . the synod●… directions & determinations , so farr as consonant to the word of god , are to be received with reverence & submission ; not only for their agreement therwith which is the ●…ncipall ground therof , & without which they bind not at all : ) ●…t also second●…ly , for the powr wherby they are made , as being an ordinance of god appointed therunto in his word . b●… is d●…ficult , if not impossible , for many churches to c●… altogether in one place , ●…n all their●…●…rs universally : therfore they may assemble by their delegates o●… messengers , as the church of antioch went not all to ierusalem , but some select men for that purpose . because none are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be more fitt to know the state of the churches , not to advise of wayes for the good thereof then elders ; therfore it is fitt that in the choice of the messengers for such assemblies , they have special respect ūto such . yet in as much as not only paul & barnabas , but certayn others also were sent to ierusalem from antioch . acts . & when they were come to ierusalem , not only the apostles & elders , but other brethren also doe assemble , & meet about the matter ; therfore synods are to consist both of elders , & other church-members , endued with gifts , & sent by the churches , not excluding the presence of any brethren in the churches . chap : xvii of the civil magistrates powr in matters e●…c●…es●…l . it is lawfull , profitable ▪ & necessary for christians to gather themselves into church estate , & therin to exercise all the ord●… of chr●…st according unto the word , although the consent of magistrate could not be had therunto ; because the apostles & christ●…ans in their time did frequently thus practise , when the magistrates being all of them jewish or pagan , & mostly persecuting enemies , would give no countenance or consent to such matters . church-government stands in no opposition to civil gove●…ment of cōmon-welths , nor any intrencheth upon the authority of civil magistrates in their jurisdictions ; nor any whit weakneth their hand●… in governing ; but rather strengthneth them , & farthereth the people in yielding more hearty & consc●…onable obedience ūt●… the●… , whatsoever some ill affected persons to the wayes of christ have suggested , to alienate the affections of kings & princes from the ordinance of christ ; as if the kingdome of christ in his church could not rise & stand , without the falling & weakning of their government , which is al●…o of christ : wheras the contrary is most true , that they may both stand together & flourish the one being helpfull unto the other , in their distinct & d●… administrations . the powr & authority of magistrates is not for the restra●…ing of churches , or any other good workes , but for helping in & furthering therof ; & therfore the consent & countenance of magistrates when it may be had , is not to be ●…ghted , or lightly esteemed ; but on the contrary ; it is part of that hon●…ur due to christian magistrates to desire & crave their consent & approbation therin : which being obtayned , the churches may then proceed in their way with much more encouragement , & comfort . it is not in the powr of magistrates to compell their s●…bjects to become church-members , & to partake at the lords table : for the priests are reproved , that brought ●…worthy ones into the ●…tuarie : then , as it was unlawfull for the preists , so it is as unlawfull to be done by civil magistrates . those whom the church is to cast out if they were in , the magistrate ought not thrust into the church , nor to hold them therin . as it is unlawfull for church-officers to meddle with the sword of the magistrate , s●… 〈◊〉 it ●…wfull for the magistrate to meddle with the work p●…per to c●…ch officers ▪ the acts of mo●… & dav●…d , who were not only p●… , but p●… , were ex●… ; therfore not ●…ble . ag●…●…n 〈◊〉 the l●…d wit●… , by 〈◊〉 uzz●…h w●… 〈◊〉 , for 〈◊〉 to offer 〈◊〉 it is the duty of the ma●… , to take ●…e of matters of rel●…gion , & to ●…nprove his ●…l autho●…ty for the oble●…ing of the duties commanded in the first , is well as for observing of the duties commanded in the second table they are called gods . the end of the magistrate●… office , is not only the q●… & p●…ble l●…fe of the subj●…t , in 〈◊〉 of rig●… & ho●…ty , but also in matter , of ●…ss yea of all 〈◊〉 m●… j●… , d●… , s●… , asa , jehoshaphat , hezekiah , josiah , are much commended by the holy ghost , for the putting forth their authority in matters of religion : on the contrary , such kings as have been fayling this way , are frequently taxed & reproved by the lord . & not only the kings of judah , but also job , nehe●…h , the king of nin●…veh , darius , artaxerxes , nebucad●…ezar , whom none looked at as types of christ , ( thouh were it soe , there were no place for any just objection , ) are cōmēded in the book of god , for exercising their authority this way . the object of the powr of the magistrate , are not things meerly inward , & ●…o not subject to his cogni●…ance & view , as unbeleife hardness of heart , erronious opinions not vented ; but only such things as are acted by the outward man ; neither is their powr to be exercised , in commanding such acts of the outward man , & punnishig the neglect therof , as are but meer invētions , & devices of men ; but about such acts , as are commanded & forbidden in the word ; yea such as the word doth clearly determine , though not alwayes clearly to the judgment of the magistrate or others , yet clearly in it selfe . in these he of right ought to putt forth his authority , though oft-times actually he doth it not . idolatry , b●…phemy , heresy , venting corrupt & pernicious opinions , that destroy the foundation , open contempt of the word preached , prophanation of the lords day , disturbing the peaceable administration & exercise of the worship & h●…ly things of god , & the like , are to be restrayned , & punished by civil authority . if any church one or more shall grow sc●…smaticall , rending it self from the communion of other churches , or shall walke incor●…gibly or obstinately many corrupt way of their own , contrary to the rule of the word ; in such case the magistrate is to put forth his co●…ve powr , as the matter shall require the tribes on this side 〈◊〉 intended to make warr against the other tribes , for bu●… the altar of witness , whom they suspected to have turned away therin from following of the lord . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- ezek . ●… col. . tim heb●… . . 〈◊〉 exod tim 〈◊〉 tim ●… chron ●… . ex tim v . heb ●… . cor . deut . ezek . kings , king ●… v 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . is●…i . ●… . c●…l ●… 〈◊〉 act●… ●… m●…tt 〈◊〉 cor ●… 〈◊〉 . cor cor cor 〈◊〉 cor cor . acts ●… . notes for div a e- ●…ph & . heb ●… . 〈◊〉 v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… : tim c 〈◊〉 . eph 〈◊〉 ●… . tim . rev . cor . eph 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . rom 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . ●…hes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . is●… . 〈◊〉 tim ●… . acts . 〈◊〉 . colos . . matt ●… . 〈◊〉 co●… 〈◊〉 . gen. . exod : 〈◊〉 . cor. ●… . cor. . cor. 〈◊〉 . cor : ●… . exo 〈◊〉 : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : . & to 〈◊〉 . acts. . . cor . notes for div a e- 〈◊〉 cor : i●…phe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . hebr : . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 cor. 〈◊〉 . rom. ●… ●… . is●… ●… - . ac●… 〈◊〉 . m●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . rom. . cor. 〈◊〉 . phi●…lip . 〈◊〉 . collo●… 〈◊〉 . ●…phes . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 co : ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 & . ezek. ●… . & . 〈◊〉 ch●…p . ●… ●… 〈◊〉 . num 〈◊〉 & . ●…gg . . cor. ●… ps●…l . : cor. 〈◊〉 cor. : & . ier. . cor. 〈◊〉 : ier. . g●… . co●… . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 ●… ●… . 〈◊〉 : ●… ●… notes for div a e- 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & ●… . 〈◊〉 ●… to ps●…l . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . gen . deu . act . & 〈◊〉 . matt . & ●… . psal 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 matt ●… . iohn . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pet . ▪ eph ●…oh 〈◊〉 ●… . notes for div a e- m●…tt 〈◊〉 rev 〈◊〉 . is●… 〈◊〉 . john ●… 〈◊〉 ●… . cor . ●…tus . . 〈◊〉 cor. 〈◊〉 . ro●…●… 〈◊〉 . acts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ co●… ●… . notes for div a e- 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor 〈◊〉 , ●…phe 〈◊〉 psal ●… . eph . ●…ph ●… c●… 〈◊〉 eph 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 act 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 rom 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 co●… . tim●… , 〈◊〉 , to tit . . ●…ct pet 〈◊〉 . tim phil . acts 〈◊〉 . tim . sph . ●…om ●… , cor tim ●…it 〈◊〉 eph cap 〈◊〉 ●…am 〈◊〉 king 〈◊〉 . notes for div a e- rom 〈◊〉 . tim . cor ●… . 〈◊〉 tim 〈◊〉 tim . . chro. . rev ●… . tim . m●… . cor . act . acts 〈◊〉 . ●… . . acts . . c. . 〈◊〉 cor . heb . , thes . . acts . v . 〈◊〉 thes . . jam. . acts . act . 〈◊〉 . v pail . tim . cor . . tim . . acts . 〈◊〉 c . . c . rom. . . cor . 〈◊〉 c. . . . cor . eph . . acts . matt . 〈◊〉 tim . . . notes for div a e- heb. . galat 〈◊〉 . acts . cap . 〈◊〉 tim . c p acts . cap . act . c . . c . . . gal . hebr. . rom. . cant. . . notes for div a e- acts. ●… . 〈◊〉 cap . tim. . n●…m . . act . . cap . . acts. . . cap . notes for div a e- matt. . tim. . hebr. . 〈◊〉 thes. . rom. . tim. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 cor. . . hebr. . . acts. . cap . num. . ezek. . acts. . ●…osh . . . rev. . tim. . acts. . . 〈◊〉 cor. . . num. . . ●…o . acts. . vi . ●… . c . 〈◊〉 cor. . cor. . . hebr. . 〈◊〉 notes for div a e- cor. . ●… . matt. ●… . c . ●… tim. . gala. . . cor. . 〈◊〉 vers. . tim. . rom . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 cor. . . gala. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor. . galat. . act. . . neh. . ●… ●…say . . 〈◊〉 cor. . 〈◊〉 , notes for div a e- chron. . . mat. . . & . acts. . rev. . acts . ●… rev. ●… . ●… ch●… . act . ●… 〈◊〉 . c matt . . acts : . ro●… . matt . . isay ●… . . psa●…●… . pe●…●… . 〈◊〉 , ●…ebr . 〈◊〉 ●…phe . 〈◊〉 . matt. . , gallat . . 〈◊〉 tim. . c●…nt . . matt. . 〈◊〉 cor. . notes for div a e- hebr. . ●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . prov. . rom . 〈◊〉 . tim . . acts . . ephe. 〈◊〉 . ●… acts . ●… . & ver . ●… chap ●… nehe ●… . tim . ●… r●…m . jude . . 〈◊〉 . . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . ▪ 〈◊〉 is●…y . acts . 〈◊〉 cor. ●… . ●… 〈◊〉 . ●… . rom . . 〈◊〉 c●…r . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●… . co●…l . . rom. . 〈◊〉 c●…r . . . notes for div a e- 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . jude . . d●…ut . . cor. . r●…m . . ●… rev. . . . . & ●… mat. . , 〈◊〉 lu●… . ●… . . 〈◊〉 matt. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 v 〈◊〉 v 〈◊〉 tit. 〈◊〉 . ●… matt. . 〈◊〉 cor . 〈◊〉 . & v 〈◊〉 galat. . 〈◊〉 . matt ●… . ▪ ●… . 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 e●…ek . ●… jer. 〈◊〉 . matt . . 〈◊〉 co●… . . the . . . cor , . thes. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor . , ●…ev 〈◊〉 . , ●… . ver. mat . . acts . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cor. chap . ●… chron. . gen . ●… . ●…t ezek ▪ 〈◊〉 notes for div a e- rev . c●…nt . . . rom . . cor . 〈◊〉 acts . ●… rev . 〈◊〉 c●…nt . . act●… . 〈◊〉 acts . . ver : . 〈◊〉 ezek . . g●…ll . 〈◊〉 ●…o . math . . . . by ●…portion gen . . cor ●… . rom . . acts . acts . vers . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . . . 〈◊〉 . . . & . by proportion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , . notes for div a e- acts . . ●… ●… . acts , ●…cts . ●…cts . to vers . acts . 〈◊〉 chron ●… . . to . acts . acts . , . 〈◊〉 cl●… ●… . ●… . 〈◊〉 ch●… . 〈◊〉 . act. . vers 〈◊〉 . acts. . acts ●… . acts 〈◊〉 vers , . notes for div a e- act . ●… . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 john ●… . ●… acts . . is●…y . . rom . . 〈◊〉 tim . . ●…ek . . 〈◊〉 cor . matth . , . 〈◊〉 c●… . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●… kings . . c . 〈◊〉 king . c . . c . . kings ●… . . job . . c . . ●… . ne ●… jon 〈◊〉 . . ezr●… . d●…n . ●… . kings . ●… . vers . deut . kings ●… . ●… . vers . d●… 〈◊〉 . . z●…ch . . neh . . tim . . ro●… . . jo●… . a defence of the answer and arguments of the synod met at boston in the year concerning the subject of baptism and consociation of churches against the reply made thereto, by the reverend mr. john davenport, pastor of the church at new-haven, in his treatise entituled another essay for investigation of the truth &c. : together with an answer to the apologetical preface set before that essay, by some of the elders who were members of the synod above-mentioned. mather, richard, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing m estc w ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a defence of the answer and arguments of the synod met at boston in the year concerning the subject of baptism and consociation of churches against the reply made thereto, by the reverend mr. john davenport, pastor of the church at new-haven, in his treatise entituled another essay for investigation of the truth &c. : together with an answer to the apologetical preface set before that essay, by some of the elders who were members of the synod above-mentioned. mather, richard, - . , p. printed by s. green and m. johnson for hezekiah usher of boston, cambridge : . imperfect: p. - lacking. "an answer" attributed to jonathan mitchel, a.m. of cambridge , and "a defence" to the reverend mather of dorchester by nuc pre- imprints. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng congregational churches -- controversial literature. congregational churches -- massachusetts. baptism -- history. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - rina kor sampled and proofread - rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the answer and arguments of the synod met at boston in the year . concerning the svbiect of baptism , and consociation of chvrches . against the reply made thereto , by the reverend mr. iohn davenport , pastor of the church at new-haven , in his treatise entituled , another essay for investigation of the truth , &c. together with an ansvver to the apologetical preface set before that essay ▪ by some of the elders who were members of the synod above-mentioned . thess. . . prove all things ; held fast that which is good . chron. . . keep and seek for all the commandments of the lord ye●● god , that ●● may possess this good land , and leave it for ●n inheritance for your children after you for ever . cambridge : printed by s. green and m. iohnson for hezekiah vsher of boston . . never yet been admitted to the lords table . forms ●● ratio ecclesiast . minist . in peregrinor . ecclesiâ institutâ lendini , &c. pag. — , . with pag. , , , . holy baynes accounts , that children are a part of the church , dioces . tryall , pag. . and the principles pointed to in his christian letters ; letter . pag. , . and letter . pag. , . edit . . also in his exposition of the epistle to the ephesians , on chap. . . doct. . and on chap. . . pag. , . and other places , may easily be improved unto a confirmation of the doctrine of the synod . dr. ames ( whom the preface calls for-ever famous , iudicious , &c. and that very deservedly ) how large his judgement is as to the subject of baptism , may be seen by any that have his cases of conscience , lib. . cap. . he requires no more unto the most proper right of a child to baptism , but that the parents o● one of them be intra ecclesiam , within the church ; though he thinks that others also may be baptized , if any godly persons will undertake for their education . and how plainly he holds forth the doctrine of the synod in his medulla , lib. . cap. . thes. , . & cap. . thes. , , . is easie to be collected . we may well here take up the words of worthy mr. cotton , in his preface before mr. nertons answer to apollonius , where having named cartwright , partus , baynes , and ames , those chariots and horsemen of israel , and leaders in the cause of reformation , he addes , ab borum sive vestigiis , sive principiis si novitatis studio cessimus , jure meritò deseremur ut desertores . quod si in viâ illorum ambulamus nec ultrà pregredimur ( quod ad summam rei attine● ) quàm ab illorum lumine divinitùs collustrati , cert● non nos illi sumus , qui causam reformationis deseruimus , sed illi potiùs ( quos lubens nollem dicere ) qui nos ut desertores deserunt & de●estantur . so here : if we out of any changeable inclinations , or spirit of innovation , have departed from the footsteps or principles of those blessed patrons of reformation ( such as were now named , and others of the good old non-conformists , who both with prayers , tears and sufferings , and with as much judicious learning and piety as the world hath yet seen , have handed down to us the work and way of reformation ) then let us be , and well might we be deserted and censured as desertors or apostates ( as we are by too many ) but if we adhere to the principles , and tread in the steps of those worthies , and go no further then they , or then the light which god hath communicated by them doth lead us , surely we have not deserted nor departed from the cause of reformation ; but they rather ( though unwillingly we speak it ) who desert and dislike us as desertors . the elders and messengers of the congregational churches in england , in the preface to the result of their meeting at the savoy , do profess a full concurrence throughout in all the substantial parts of church-government with their reverend brethren the old puritan non-confermists , citing in the margin fox , dearing , greenbam , cartwright , fenner , fulk , whitaker , reynolds , perkins , &c. now let the judgement of these ( such of them as have left any thing written about this question , by which we may judge of the mindes of the rest ) be considered ; and see if they do not abundantly confirm such ● latitude of baptism as we plead for . what if our congregational brethren in england have not yet , by reason of the infancy of their churches , had so much occasion to look into this question ( as our selves for a long time had not ) nor yet so much need to trouble themselves about the full extent of baptism , in a place where there were enow that would baptize those whom themselves left unbaptized ? yet when the lord shall incline any of those able and worthy persons to set themselves to the study of this point : why should we think that they will not be willing to receive light from , or that they will be willing easily to go against the judgements of those old non-conformists , whom they professedly concurre-with in other parts of discipline ? so much for the discourse upon the first objection . in answer to to the second objection , the apologist gives this warning , let us not for fear of anabaptism , do worse , even defile our selves with antichristianism . and makes this profession , we are willing to profess that we look upon it as great a sin to baptize all children , as to baptize to children . ans. . we should not chuse to put anabaptism as contradistinct to antichristianism . take antichristianism for all that which is against christ his mind , rules and kingdome , so surely anabaptism is a part of it . take it for the corruptions of the papacy , how near a-kin the doctrines and principles of the papists and anabaptists are , is shewed in à late preface to mr. shepard's letter . the anabaptists are indeed ready enough to call every thing that they mislike , antichristian ; as if none were enemies to antichristianism so much as they . but if to oppose , obstruct , and undermine the kingdome of our lord jesus christ , be an antichristian thing , let scripture , reason , and experience speak , whether their tenents and wayes be not highly antichristian . does not their cutting off so great a part of the subjects of christs kingdome , as the children of the faithful are ( mat. . . ) their changing the frame of the covenant , whereby his vi●●ble kingdome in his church is constituted and continued , &c. give ( though secretly , and under plausible pretences ) a most deep and dangerous wound to the interest and progress of christs kingdome ? and hath not experience shewed anabaptism ( with its wonted concomitant errours ) to be the vexation and clog of reformation ever since the beginning of it . . to speak here of baptizing the children of infidells and pagans , as if any did incline to that , would be a strange absurdity : but if by [ all children ] be meant the children of all that are named christians , though we think it too great a l●xness to baptize all such , yet we are past doubt , that so to do is farre neerer the rule and mind of christ , when he sayes [ dis●ple 〈◊〉 nations , baptizing them ] then to baptize no children . let us be farre from making bucan , zanchy , calvin , perkins , and many other eminent and worthy divines , who are for such a latitude of baptizing , to be equally erroneous with the anabaptists . let no one make it a temptation to himself or others , to run to antip●●d●baptism , because he hears the assertors of infant-baptism plead for a greater latitude of baptism then he thinks is ( or perhaps then indeed is ) meet . errour in particular applications of the rule , is farre less then errour in a principle . anabaptism erres in a principle , and principal rule of church-constitution . and he that narrowly observes the frame of christs rules and dispensations about this matter , will find much of that maxime in them , faveres sunt ampliandi . we see the lord takes in the children as holy , if but one of the parents be a believer ; he appoints us to recei●e the weak , as well as the strong . we find not that the apostles refused any that were willing to come in , and to be subjects of christs visible kingdome : neither are persons or people utterly broken off from a portion in the visible church , till after all means and long patience used , &c. as if christ studyed the inlargement of his visible kingdome among men ( i. e. as much as may be with the honour or his holiness and government ) rather then the straitning thereof . many pious-minded persons among us are very fearful of inlarging , and of corruption that way : but why should we not also be afraid of grieving the heart of christ ( mark . ) by too much straitning , and by keeping or putting out those whom christ takes in ? for we may not take away or diminish from the word of god , no more then we may adde thereto , deut. . . the lord keep us from extreams on either hand , and guide us in the right middle way that is according to his will. but the preface goes on ; neither can we plead guilty unto that charge , that we deny all church-membership unto any in●ants ; we onely deny that they are personal and immediate members . indeed as personal membership is taken subjectiv●ly , so we say it is in infants , i. e. their persons are recipients of the ad●unct of church membership : but as personal membership is taken formally , i. e. for such as have by them , ●●tes in their own persons entred into covenant with god and his people , so infants are not capable of personal church-membership . ans. it is pity to clog and cloud the plain things of car●●● with intricate distinctions , which do rather bemist and puzzle the readers understanding , then enlighten it . one would think it should suffice men to know that their children are ( by the lordsrich grace and appointment ) in their own persons within the covenant , and so members of the church , without disputing whether they be so subjectively or f●rmally , &c. and should such distinctions pass for currant , what other use they would be of , we know not ; but sure we are , they would do great service to the anabaptists , though we believe that is not the intendment of our brethren , to comply with , or build up anabaptism . but we are not now speaking to intentions or persons , but to arguments and distinctions in themselves ; considered . for , suppose one give this argument for infant-baptism ( and indeed we know not a better ) members of the visible church are to be baptized : infants of confederate parents are members of the visible church : ergo. how readily may it be answered , that personal and immediate members ( or they that have personal membership formally ) are to be baptized ; but not mediate and not-personal members , or they that have it ( not formally , but ) subjectively onely . we have known an antipoedebaptist flie to this as his sheat-anchor [ infants are members ; ●ut how ? why , not personal members , but members in their parents ; and so let them be baptized ( mediately ) in their parents , and not in their own persons . ] and indeed , why should the seal of membership be immediately and formally applied to their own persons , if they be not in their own persons immediate and formal ( or formally ) members ? but let us search a little into this distinction between personal membership as taken subjectively , and the same as taken formally , and see what there is in it , with reference to the matter in hand . for , that children are personal and immediate members , is asserted and proved by the synod , but denied by our brethren : and this distinction is here brought to bear up that deniall , or to tell us in what sense they deny personal membership to infants . it was sometimes roundly denied , that infants are personal members ; now it is denied with a distinction : they are personal members ( say they ) subjectively , but not formally . answ. . if infants be members , they are formally so : for , forma est per quam res est id quod est . if we say , such an one is a man , a father , a master , &c. we must mean that he is formally a man , or hath the form of a man , &c. he is not a member , that hath not the form of a member . to say he is a member , and to deny him the form of a member , is to say and unsay . . it is here said , that , as personal membership is taken subjectively , so it is in infants , i. e. their persons are recipients of the adjunct of church-membership . we demand , whether this does not fully yield the cause , and give us as much as we need to the matter in hand ? for , if the person of the infant be recipient of the adjunct of church-membership , then of formal church-membership ( it is not church-membership , if it want the form ) then formal ( or proper ) church-membership , doth cleave to the person of the infant ; then the person of this infant is formally a church-member , or , he is a personal formal member . he needs no more to render him a personal formal member ( or formally a personal member ) then to have the adjunct of church-membership upon him , or cleaving to his person . for membership ( as all such 〈◊〉 relations , fatherhood , sonship , &c. ) is but an adjunct ; it enters not into the essence of any man , but cleaves to him as an adjunct . and so no man is more then subjectively a member ( the most formally personal member that is , is but subjectively a member in this sense ) i. e. he is a subject recipient of membership , or one that hath the adjunct of membership cleaving to him . if therefore the person of the infant be recipient of the adjunct of church-membership , then he is a personal formal member , or formally a personal member , for his person hath the form of membership upon it , or cleaving to it . . when it 's said , [ but as personal membership is taken form●lly , i. e. for such as have by themselves in their own persons entred into covenant with god and his people , so infants are not capable of personal membership ] what logick is this , to put the efficient for the form , or to make it a part thereof ? it is wont to be said , efficiens non ingreditur essentiam . the act of covenanting on our part , whereby we are brought into the church , is but an efficient ( yea , but an instrumental efficient : the book calls it a precrean : cause , pag. . that is still but an efficient : yet consider it in contradistinction to divine institution , it can but instrumentally procreate ) but the form , or formalis ratio of membership , is to be within the covenant , or within the church , cor. . . whatever causality our act in pro●essing and covenanting do contribute to bring us in , it can be but an efficient . and hence it doth not denominate or constitute the formality of our membership . object . but [ formally ] here is referred to personal , not to membership . ans. if so it be , yet still the same answers hold , unless it mean no more then every one grants , and so be nothing to the purpose . if the meaning onely be that infants do not enter into covenant by an act of their own proper persons ; who ever said or thought they did ? what need we labour in finding out distinctions to deny them that which no body ever challenged for them ? or to what purpose is that ? but the question is , whether infants be not personal members ( or personally and formally members ) although they never yet put forth an act of covenanting in their own persons ? we affirm it , because they have the forme of membership ( or the adjunct of formal membership ) cleaving to their own persons by divine institution . and so we say they are personally , and formally members , though they have not yet acted any thing in their own proper persons . you seem to deny it , and bring a distinction to clear your meaning : the former branch of which distinction , as your selves explain it , grants the thing that we plead for ; the latter branch , as you also explain it , denies no more then we deny , viz. that they enter by their own proper personal act. but the mistake lies in making this [ viz. entring by ones own proper act ] to be formally personal membership : whereas that is formally personal membership , that doth formally and properly constitute the person a member ; and so , [ being within the covenant ] doth the infants in question , though they never yet acted in their own persons . the distinction should rather stand thus ; as personal membership is taken properly and formally , so it agrees to infants ; i. e. their persons are recipients of the adjunct of proper formal church-membership , but as personal membership is taken improperly ( and very improperly indeed ) i. e. for the membership of such as have by themselves or by their own personal profession entred into covenant , so infants are not capable of personal membership . thus it might be granted . but why should we use personal membership in so improper a sence , or insist on a sence that toucheth not the cause in question ? the sum is , that if by [ personal membership taken formally ] be meant onely , entring by their own proper personal act , then the distinction is needless and not ad rem . but if it be meant so as to deny what we affirm , then it is overthrown by your selves in the former branch . grant them to be personal members subjectively , you therein grant them to be so formally : deny them personal membership formally , you deny it subjectively . these do mutuò so ponere & tollere , being used in any sence that is proper and pertinent to the present dispute . but consider whether it would sound rationally to say , that paul was not formally a personal roman ( or not formally a roman free-man in his own person ) because he did not buy his freedome with his own money ; or that a childe who hath an inheritance left him , is not formally a personal owner thereof , because himself did not purchase it : or , that infants are personal subjects in such a kingdome , members of such a family , subjectively onely , not formally , because they did not become such by their own previous personal act . these and such like shew how improper and incongruous it is , to make ones own personal act to be that which constitutes the formality of personal membership . preface . it 's strange to us to conceive , that they should have this personal formal membership , and yet that they should not be subjects capable of formal personal censures . ans. they are capable in regard of their relation and state in the church , though not in regard of natural capacity , nor in regard of demerit ; for an infant cannot ecclesiastically deserve publick censure . it is not strange to conceive infants to be subjects of such a prince , though at present uncapable of civil tryals and punishments . it suffices that infant-members are in a state of subjection to church discipline , and ingaged thereto for afterward , though at present naturally uncapable of the exercise thereof . the new born infant is not capable of domestical discipline ( either rod or rebuke ) but that hinders not his being a formal personal member of the family . preface . we neither do , nor ever did deny , that , the persons of infants of believing confederate parents , are brought under the covenant , onely we conceive that their membership is conjunct with , and dependent upon the membership and covenant of their parents , so as to live and dye therewith — hence when the parents are excommunicated , the membership of the infant-childe is cut off ▪ because excommunication puts an end to the outward covenant ( which death it self doth not do ) and if the root be destroyed , the branches cannot live . ans. that the childes membership depends upon the membership of the parent , as the instrumental cause or condition of the childes first entrance into the church , or becoming a member , we readily grant ( because divine institution admitteth onely the children of members to be members ) and so much mr. cottons words here all●dged in the preface do truly teach . but that the childes membership is so wrapt up in the membership of the parent , as to live and dye therewith , as if it had no proper and distinct membership of its own , is surely a deep mistake , and will ( if followed ) overthrow that subjective personal membership before granted unto infants , and that which is here also owned , viz. that their persons are brought under the covenant : if the persons of the infants be brought under the covenant , then their persons are within the covenant , or their persons are confederate , then not onely the person of the parent , but the person of the childe hath the formality of membership upon it . and as the person of the childe in regard of its natural being , though for the first existence thereof it depended under god upon the parent , yet when once it is born into the world , it is not so conjunct with , and dependent upon the person of the parent , as to live and dye therewith ; so why should the membership of the childe be thus dependent ? seeing the book ( to which this preface is prefixed ) affirmeth , p . that the parent is a procreant cause , as of the childe● natural being by his generating him , so also of his church-membership by his confederating for him , and this by gods institution . and seeing the person of the childe hath a membership of its own affixed to it ( as the foresaid grants import ) and that from god ( from gods covenant and institution ) as well as the person of the parent ; why should we say , that the membership of the childe doth after this , depend upon the membership or covenant of the parent , and not rather upon gods covenant and institution , so as to live and dye according to the order and appointment thereof , and not otherwise ? hence the membership wherewith the person of the childe is clothed by gods institution , dyes not till either the person of the childe dye , or till by some institution and appointment of god he be cut off from his membership for his own sin . neither must it be yelded , that the excommunication of the parent , doth properly and formally cut off the infant-childe that was born before such excommunication . we say , properly and formally , for consequentially and eventually it may bring the childe to be cut off also ; as in case the parent desperately go away from the church among hereticks and infidels , and bring up the childe to serve other gods : but so it may be with a wife carried away by such an husband , yet that does not hinder her from having a personal , distinct , proper and immediate membership , nor make his cutting off to be hers also . but suppose a parent and children that live and continue among us ; the parent having a company of children , all in their minority , is for his wickedness cast out , and continuing impenitent , dyes in that estate : to say that all these children ( who were born and baptized in the church ) are cut off from membership hereby , is a strange assertion . for . this would make an infant-childe to be a subject of excommunication , which was before ( and in regard of natural capacity and demerit , rightly ) denied . . if a parent in israel was for his sin cut off from his people , were the children that he left behind him therefore excluded from the commonwealth of israel ? to be sure , in crimes , capitally punished ( of which cutting off from their people is sometimes plainly meant , exod. . , . levit. . . & . . & . . ) the childe was not to dye for the fathers sin , deut. . . chron. . . ier. . . ezek. . . and is there not the like reason of other punishments , whether ecclesiastical or civil ? yea , that cutting off from their people appointed in the law , is conceived by judicious interpreters to be in some places most properly meant of an ecclesiastical death , or cutting off from the people and church of god by excommunication ; but however , it held a proportion with excommunication now under the gospel . the childe may be barred from a right or privilegde that he ne●er had , by the sin or condition of the parent : so h●athen children are unclean and without , because their parents are so . ( hence children born after the parents excommunication are not of the church : ) but to be deprived of a right or priviledge which ●e once ●ad , and was possessed of ( which is the case of children formerly born in the church , and owned as members by the seal of baptism ) this hath in it the nature of a proper formal punishment or censure , and this is inflicted upon none but for his own sin . a parent civilly or naturally dead , cannot after that bring forth children to the commonwealth ; nor can a parent ecclesiastically dead ( he so continuing ) bring forth children to the church . but the children that are already members of the one society or of the other , are not to be cut off therefrom for their parents sin . . that , if the root be destroyed , the branches cannot live , is a truth in nature of branches growing on the same tree : but if these branches be taken and set upon a st●ck and root of their own , ( though but as in a nursery ) then they do not die when the old tree dies , or is cut up by the roots . and so is the case in hand . these children are inserted and implanted into the church , the body of christ , in their own persons ( as was but now granted , when it was said , the persons of these infants do . receive the adjunct of of church-membership , and that their persons are ●rought under the covenant ) and have so farre taken root therein , as to receive ( not from their parents , but from the church , and from the soil and fa●ness thereof ) the sap and nourishment of baptism , which is also a seal of the establishment or rooting of their membership . branches included and contained in the root ( as children yet unborn , or not born till after excommunication ) are broken off ( or rather left without ) together with their parents : but not such branches as are already severed from the root , and planted in the house of god , in the vineyard of the lord of hosts , as through the grace of the covenant our children are , isa. . . . that death does not put an end to the outward covenant , which excommunication does , is a notion that we understand not : we should have thought that outward membership ( or membership in the visible instituted church ) as well as the use of all outward ordinances , or instituted wor●hip , had everlastingly ceased at death . the ends , duties and enjoyments of outward membership , do then cease , and so the membership it self . the lord knows how many may from outward membership in the visible church , drop to hell ; and does not their death put an end to their membership ? and if death put an end to outward membership , it puts an end to outward covenant in the sense of the question , i. e. as to the person that dies . indeed it does not hinder the continuance of the covenant to others that are in covenant , and are surviving : and neither does excommunication so do . but the person of the parent loses his membership in the visible church when he dies , as well as when he is excommunicated . and hence if the membership of the childe did live and die with the membership of the parent , there would be a cessation of it in the one case , as well as in the other . a parents faith , prayers , and covenant may live , though hi● self be dead : but how ? i. e. virtually , in the virtue and effect of them : and how is that ? why , the promise made by god to the faith , prayers , and profession ( or covenanting ) of a godly parent , that lives , and abides , and takes effect . so then it is neither the parent , nor his membership , but gods covenant that lives , taking in the children that are begotten or born of confederate parents , to be members of his visible church , and so continuing them , till by some rule or appointment of his they be cut off . in like manner , though the parent by his sin and wickedness have deprived himself of a portion in israel , and be cut off by the censure of excommunication ; yet the covenant of god lives , and stands to the children whom he had before taken into covenant , and planted in his house . to call it the covenant of their parents , and to say that childrens membership is dependent upon that , is too crude a p●r●se , and too much abused by many , ascribing that to the parents , and to their profession ( or act in covenanting ) which belongs most properly to god , and his grace . 't is gods covenant that takes in both parents and children . alas , what are parents ! and what could all their profession , and faith , and actings do , if god did not vouchsafe to take them into covenant ? now god taketh the childe into his covenant , as well as the parent : and 't is gods covenant and institution that the membership of the chide depends upon , and with which alone it l●ves and dies . but it follows in the preface : true it is , that we have made much use of that distinction of immediate and mediate members ▪ which seems to us to carry a mighty and constraining evidence of scripture-light along with it , &c. ans. we must needs say this seems strange to us , when as there is not so much as one scripture brought ( either here , or in the book following ) to make good or hold forth such a distinction . in stead of scriptures , here are some authors streight named , not to attest the distinction of immediate and mediate . ( it see●s that cannot be found , no not so much as in authors ) but of compleat and incompleat . to which the answer is ready : . if some authors have so distinguished members , yet where is such a distinction of membership ? at least purposely so intended , as to mak● several sorts or kindes of membership specifically differing , as is expresly said of the distinction here pleaded for in the book , pag . dr ▪ ames , in the place here cited ▪ does not say of infants . non sunt 〈◊〉 membra , but perfecta membra : neither does he say , non sunt perfecta , but non sunt adeo perfecta membra : they are not so perfect members ( saith he ) of the church , as that they can exercise acts of communion , or be admitted to partake of all the priviledges thereof : plainly referring the imperfection or incompleatness , not to the essence of their membership , but to the degree of their communion and priviledges . hence , . their distinction of members into compleat and incompleat , is ( being candidly taken ) as much as our distinction of members into such as are in ●ull ( or compleat ) communion , and such as are not yet in full communion ; which distinction we have ( and we hope justly ) made great use of . and for such a distinction re●●ipsa loquitur . all that are within ( of , or belonging to ) such a society , whether family , commonwealth , or church , are truely and properly said to be members of that society ; but all are not equal in participation of priviledges therein : some have a more full ( or compleat ) 〈◊〉 and portion therein , and some have less . all christs scholars ( or disciples ) are not of the highest form ; nor are all his subjects betrusted with the keyes of his kingdome ; nor all his children past their non-age , &c. but yet they are all disciples in his school , subjects of his kingdome , children of his family , i. e. members o● the visible church . but such a distinction as maketh several sorts of membership specifically different , we have not yet seen cleared and confirmed , either from scripture , or authors , or from sound reason . sundry distinctions or sorts of members , might easily be given ; as , some members are in office in the church , some out of office ; some partake of the lords supper , but not of the power of voting , ( as women ) some of both ; some have onely initial priviledges , some all. ( ames medul . lib . cap . thes. ● . ) but these are but distributions ex adjunctis , and do not touch or vary the essence of membership , nor make several sorts thereof . nor do these distinctions and degrees of members in the church , arise simply from the nature of membership , or from any difference therein , but from something superadded unto membership : as an officer is not more a member then another ; but his dignity and place in the church ariseth from somewhat superadded unto membership , viz. his office. a man is not more a member then a woman , though he hath a power and priviledge in the church ( besides and above bare membership ) which the woman hath not . so men and women that partake of the lords table , are not more ( or more truely , properly , immediately and personally ) members of the church , then children are ; but they having attained to more and further qualifications , ( or to a greater degree of growth in the church ) are by rule admitted to mor priviledges then they thus in a kingdome or commonwealth , there are many sorts of subjects : some bear office , some not ; some admitted to election of officers , some not ; some capable of pleading and answering for themselves in law , some are not : but yet they all agree in the relation of a subject . and who ever made a specifical distinction of that , so as to say ( in that sense ) some are mediate subjects , and some immediate ? the same may be said of a family , where the youngest childe is as truely , properly , personally and immediately a member of the family , as the most grown person , though as to power and priviledges therein there be a vast difference . so in the natural body : all the parts are not an eye , an hand , &c. but all are members ; and the meanest part is as well a member , as the most noble , cer. . — . now there is the like reason , as to the general nature of membership , in ● church-society , which is set forth by that of a kingdome . fa●●ly , and of the natural body , in the holy scriptures . and so much for the discourse upon the second objection . in the third place , our brethren set down this position or opinion , as that which is objected against them , that a person who is a church-member may become no member by an act or defect of his own , without any church-act in censuring of him : and to 〈◊〉 is they say , most true it is th●t we do maintain this . and for proo● ther●●f ▪ they suppo●e 〈…〉 of an english fugitive , of one turned turk , who was never censured by any church . ans. the position objected against them , if it be pertinent to the matter in hand , must run thus ; that a person who is a church-member may become no member by an a●● or defect of his own , without any church-act in censuri●g of hi● and without 〈…〉 censure on his part ; or though he do not so much as deserve any church-censure , and be not censurable by any rule of gods word . for so the words ●f the synod ● in defence of the controverted fifth proposition ) do expresly speak , putting that as an 〈◊〉 that a person admitted member , and sealed by baptism , not cast out , nor deserving so to be , may ( the church whereof he was , still remaining ) become a non-member , and out of the church , and of the unclean world , pag. . now put but this into the objection here mentioned [ without desert of church-censure ] which is manifestly the case of the persons described in the synods fifth proposition ; and then all the discourse in answer to this objection ( wherein not a little confidence and spirit is expressed ) falls to the ground as not reaching the case in hand ; though besides there are sundry mistakes in it as may after appear . for , suppose it should be granted , that in churches where discipline is not in use , and in a case notorious , wherein a person does apparently lose the essentials of christianity ( as by turning turk or the like ) a man may be cut off from membership by his own apostacie and wickedness , though the church did not ( through her sinful neglect ) formally censure him . yet this on the other hand is also a sure and clear truth , that no act of a mans own , will or can cut him off from membership , but that which deserves a cutting off by censure , and for which the church should cut him off by censure if she did her duty . this is plain , because when a man is once in the church , he cannot be outed , till god out him : god does not out him , till some rule or appointment of his in his word does out him : but there is no rule that appoints any man to be put out of the visible church , or made as an heathen and publican , but for and upon such wickedness of his as is censurable by the church ; and in that case the rule does appoint and injoyn the church to censure him , or to put him away from among them by censure , mat. . . cor. . , . when some divines do so speak as if persons might be broken off from the church without a formal censure in some extraordinary cases ; the meaning is , not that a man doth by his own wickedness , be it never so notorious , immediately so become felo de se , or vn-member himself , as that the church hath nothing to do with him to censure him ; yes , she may and ought to censure him for his wickedness and apostacy ; and so if a church-member turn turk or papist , the church to which he belongs ought to lay him under censure for it . and for such a one to be a member till censured , i. e. a rotten member fit to be cut off , is no contradiction nor absurdity . see mr. cottons holiness of church-members , pag. . (e) and did all churches in the world do their duty , there should no man living , that ever was a member of a church yet in being , be looked upon as a non-member , but he that is so censured on excommunicated , at least unless some extraordinary and rare circumstances of a case do render the churches cognizance thereof impossible . but the meaning onely is , that where men have palpably and notoriously lost the essentials of christianity , and a church , through the sinful want or neglect of discipline , never looks after them ( onely by her doctrine declares against such ) but haply continues in that neglect from age to age , there the notoriousness of the case , and the evidence of the rule , does supply the defect of a judicial sentence , and the churches doctrinal declaration may be looked at as an implicite excommunication . and hence other churches may justly carry toward such as non-members : and hence also in the day of the reformation of such churches , after deep and long-continued corruptions , such persons may be set by without a formal censure . but what is all this to the children of our churches ? who being admitted in minority , in stead of notorious wickedness and apostacy , when grown up , do in some measure own the god and covenant of their fathers , and are neither cast out , nor deserve so to be ; whom no rule in all the scripture appointeth to be put out of the visible church : and hence t●ey stand and continue regular ( i. e. according to the appointment and allowance of the rule ) members of it , being neither excommunicate , nor by rule to be excommunicated . where shall we finde either scripture or sound reason to tell us , that these have cut themselves off from membership , or are n●w become non-members ? but to come to a plain and distinct close in this matter , we assert this position : that in churches wa●●ing in the order of the gospel , and exercising discipline according to the rules thereo● , no person can ( while he lives among them ) ▪ cease to be a member of the visible church but by excommunication , or , without a church-act in censuring him with the censure of excommunication . the sum of the proof of this , is , because we finde this way of cessation of membership ( viz. by excommunication ) plainly prescribed and appointed by the lord in scripture : and we finde not any other , while the church and the person continues in being [ see a more particular proof of it in the preface to mr. shepard's treatise of chur●h-membership of children , lately published ] but if any do affirm there is another way , it lies on them to shew and prove it . let us now consider whether that be done by all that is here further said . preface . when whitgift said , that papists and atheists might still remain members of the visible church , mr. parker tells him , that even a veritius would condemn him . and it is no new doctrine in the s●hools , to say , that , an heretical apostate is no more a member of the church of christ , then a wound , a s●re , a brand , is a member of a man ; as e●ery one knows that is mediocritèr doctus in scholasii●al divinity . therefore we conclude , that church-members may become no members by their own defection . ans. surely he that is but medi●critèr doctus in sch●lastical or ●●emical divinity , may easily know that here is the shew of an argument , or of authority of writers , wit● out the substan●e of either . for , when our divines against the papists do so often over say , that wicked or vnregenerate persons are but equivocally or improperly members of the church , as nails , ha●r , sores , and superflu●us hu ●urs , or as a wooden leg. a glass eye , &c. are members of the liuing body of a man ; they mean it properly , with reference to the invisible mystical church , or to the visible church considered in its internal spiritual living state (a) , not with reference to mens external standing ( or membership ) in the visible church : nor did they ever dream that men are by the want of internal gracious qualifications cut off from membership in the visible church , without any church-censure . it is well known , that they reckon hypocrites and secretly unregenerate persons ( as well as ●eretical apostates , or the openly-wicked ) to be but equivocaliy of the church ( viz. in ●omparison and contradistinction to the true and living members of the body of christ ; ●nd as ●aul di●tinguishes between israel , and them that are of israel , rom. . . and sayes , he is not a iew , i. e. not a jew indeed , and accepted in the sight of god , who is ●ut outwar●ly ●n● , rom. . , . ) but would you therefore say , that a close hypocrite un●e●bers hims●l● , and f●lls out of the visible church without any church-censure ? in the place here cited out of parker de pelit . eccles. lib. . cap. . pag. . verstius condemns bellarmine , because he affirmed such — ( ad ecclesias christi propri● dic●am reuerà pertinerè ) to be indeed of the true church . how strangely is this misapplied to the matter in hand (b) ? as if one should say , that all that want true sauing . faith have lo●t their church-membership without any censure , and then alledge for the proof of it the protestants doctrine , that the true mystical or catholick church consists onely of elect believers : how evident is it that this is not at rem ? for , as for an external membership in the church ( which is the matter that we have in hand ) what is more known , then that all our divines do unanimously acknowledge it to be the portion of multitudes that have not s●ving gra●e ? and that even such as have been born and brought up in the church , if they fall into manifest incorrigible wickedness , they should be removed out of the church by excommunication ; but otherwise they are still within ; although many of them be destitute of those inward qualifications that should render them living and true members of the church mystical . falsum est ( saith dr. ames , bel. enerv. tom . lib . cap. . ) internas vir●utes requir● ( i. e. absolute requiri ) à nobis ut aliquis sit in ecclesiâ quoad visiblem ejus statum . and see ames med. l●b . . cap. . thes. . they that are christians by proffession onely ( saith iunius ) are truely of the church , according to the external consideration thereof , though not according to the internal , wherein ●es the truth of christianity . animad . in bellar. de eccles. cap. . art. . and in cap. . art . he saith , we acknowledge there be griev●● sinners in this ( viz the visible ) church , in which if they were not ▪ we should in vain trouble our selues about their correcti●n and excommunication ; vid. calvin . institut . lib. . cap. . sect. , , . polan . 〈◊〉 . lib. . cap. . but it were a needless labour to cite many testimonies in so manifest a case . when whitgift had said , that the church is full of wicked persons drunkards , idolaters , papists , atheists &c cartwr●ght answers him ( as pa●ker in the very place here quoted notes ) that , that was because the discipline of christ was not 〈…〉 ; ●●ewing that he would have even such not to be left to their own self-felony ( if , being church-members they fall to such evils ) but to be cut off by christs appointed discipline . and cartwright in his second reply , part. . p. . upon that in cor. . . among other passages hath these words , it is one case of him that hath given his name to the gospel , & afterward slideth from that profession to idolatry ; and another of him that never gave it , but hath been from his infancy an idolater ; for the first cannot be severed from the church without solemn sentence of excommunication , see also pag. , , . but the preface addes : and we humbly conceiue that thus much is held forth by these scriptures , heb. . . joh. . . jud. . ans. that the sin of those who forsake church-assemblies , separate themselves from them , wander into wayes of heresie and apostacy , is grievous ( and consequently calleth for church-admonition , and incorrigibleness therein for excommunication ) this may be gathered from those scriptures ; but to gather thence , that such forsakers , separatisie and wanderers , do thereby become non-members , so as that the church should not , need not , or may not follow them with any censure , is a strange collection ; and would ( if granted ) at once overthrow all discipline . for what is more easie then for an offender to forsake the assembly , to separate himself , & c ? and then the church shall have no more to do with him ; so the process of discipline appointed in mat. . should never take place . what though there be no mention of church-censure in the texts alledged ? must we binde the holy-ghost to mention all truths and rules together in one text or context ? what the sin of such persons is , those texts shew ; but what discipline is to be used to church-sinners , this is held forth in other scriptures . if the apostle in iob. . . have reference to ebion and cerinthus , and such like hereticks ( as is commonly conceived : vid. magdeburg . centur. . lib. . p. ) surely he was not without care to have due testimony by church-censure born against them , yea when as he does so strictly injoyn all christians absolutely to avoid them , iohn ver . — . doth not that import an injunction to the churches unto which they did belong , to excommunicate them , if they had not already done it ? as when paul forbids them to eat with such an one , cor. . . he means it , as a consequent upon ( and so implying an injunction of ) church-censure . vid. dickson in a thes . . & in rom. . . & in tim. . preface . againe , how came esau to lose his membership ? we read not that he was excommunicate , therefore it remains that he discovenanted , and so dis-membered himself . and how came the children of abraham by keturah to lose their membership ? it was not by censure . ans. . should we thus reason , you would call for gospel-rules and proofs ; which we may with more reason do in this case , because proper excommunication is plainly and expresly ordained under the gospel : concerning the use of which , there is not so much clearness in the old testament . . the particular extraordinary revelation of gods minde concerning esau , together with his being denied the patriarchal blessing , of which the apostle saith [ he was rejected ] heb. . . may well be looked at as equivalent to an ordinary excommunication under the gospel . . the posterity of abraham by keturah , did in process of time lose their membership , by losing the essentials of true religion ; and to expect personal excommunication , when a whole people falls away to idolatry , and so becomes lo-am●● , is a vain thing . but it is a great mistake to think that the particular persons mentioned in genes . . , , . yea or their next generations did cease to be members of the visible church . they were providentially removed out of the land of canaan , which was reserved for israel , and were permitted by degrees to lose religion , which was by promise to be continued and established in the line of isaac and iacob , so as that in the time of moses ( the nations being by that time generally fallen to idolatry ) religion and worship was so fixed in the nation and church of israel , as that all that would serve god aright must become proselytes to it , which before that time was not necessary . but religion and salvation , and consequently church-membership , according to the domestick way of administration then used , did for a considerable time continue among the children of abraham by keturah , as the story of iob intimates ; he and his friends being justly conceived to have been partly of that stock . and concerning iethro , who was of midian , and so of keturah , see rivet on exod. . and on exod. . . preface . in like sort when persons under the gospel do not come up to the terms of the covenant , to shew themselves to be abrahams children , by holding forth his faith , and walking before the lord in simplicity and goaly sincerity , we suppose that they are justly deemed breakers of the covenant , and have justly put themselves out of that covenant which their parents made for them . ans. . the persons in question ( i. e. the persons described in the synods fifth proposition ) do in some degree hold forth their faith and godly walking , while they are professed christians , or professed believers and followers of the truth and wayes of god , wherein they have been educated from their inf●ncy ; do constantly attend the ordinances and worship of god ; live under , and do not cast off the government of christ in his cour●● , and when called thereto do readily profess their assent to the doctrine of fai●● , and consent to the covenant : do these ( putting all this together ) in no sort shew themselves to be abrahams children , by holding forth the faith of abraham and walking in his steps , i. e. in charitable and ecclesiastical reputation ? surely mr. cotton accounts such as these ( yea all the children of the faithful that do not grow up to apostacy and open scandal , or that are not excommunicable ) to continue in a visible profession of the covenant , faith and religion of their fathers ; as in those passages of his that are pointed to in the preface the l●●e synod may be seen . and where shall we finde ground in all the scripture to exclude such as these from being within the compass of the visible church , or the covenants thereof ? . if the meaning be , that they do not yet hold forth such an experimental work of faith , or lively discerning and exercise thereof , and so much of the power of godliness in their life , as may fit them for a comfortable approach to the lords supper : let it be shewed from the scripture , that the bare defect or want hereof is such a violation of the terms of the covenant , as puts men out of it . we know that every transgression , or falling stort of duty required in the covenant , is not accounted in scripture an absolute breach of the covenant ( or a forsaking and rejecting thereof ) such as for which god gives unto persons or people a bill of divorce . do but compare these persons in question , whom the hasty and rigid severity of man here pronounces to be justly deemed breakers of the covenant , and to have put themselves out of it , with those whom the holy , but merciful and gracious god does in scripture call and account such breakers of the covenant : see ier. . , . ezek. . — . deut. . , . chron . . king. . — . and he that would not cut down ( no not the barren ) fig ●ree , till further patience and means were used : he that wai●ed on the iews ( whose entrance into the church was by a membership received in infancy ) in the ministry of christ and the apostles , with as clear light of the gospel as ever shone , till utter incorrigible rejection thereof appeared , before he accounted them broken off , rom. . — . with act . , . & . , . & . , . thes. . , . he that followed ierusalem with means and dispensations of grace , till they s●oned him away , mat. . , &c. can we imagine that he will reckon our poor children to be broken off as soon as they are adult , if then presently they do not bold forth fitness ●●r the lords table ? yea , when many of them are it may be secretly following after god , though haply they have not yet attained so much as to make their approach to that ordinance comfortable ; or have not yet the confidence to put forth themselves thereunto ? surely the lord does not make so light a matter of his holy covenant and se●l ( whatever men through mis-guided apprehensions may do ) as to enter into a solemn covenant with children , take them into his church , and seal up their taking in before men and angels , and then let them goe out so easily , or drop off one knows not how . . if they have justly , i. e. meritoriously put themselves out of the covenant , or so violated the covenant on their part , as to deserve a putting out , yet still one might ask , how they come to be actually put out , seeing the church hath not proceeded , nor seen cause to proceed to any censure ? but if it be indeed so , that they do deserue ( i. e. in fo●o ecclesia ; we speak not of desert in the sight of god ) to be put out ; if they may be justly ●●e●ed breakers of the covenant , and are guilty of that which justly puts them out , then it is the churches duty actually to put them out , or cut them off : for ecclesiastical justice , as well as civil , re●dreth unto all their due and just deserts : and those that are ( ecclesiastically ) breakers of the covenant ought to be cut off , gen. . . hence it will follow upon these principles , that we ought to cast out and cut off all the adult children of our churches that are not come up to full communion ; which thing , how horrid it is to think of , let the reader judge : or be it that we forbear any formal censure , and content our selves onely doctrinaly to declare , that all such children are put out and broken off , ( which doctrin● , declaration is indeed contained in the assertions of our brethren ) yet the harshness and horrid severity of such a declaration , is li●●le inferiour to the other , and very contrary to the patience and grace of jesus christ expre●●d in the scriptures . preface . wherefore that all may know , that there is neither danger nor singularity in this our assertion , that a church member may possibly become no member , wi●hout any act of the church in formal censuring of him , give us lea●e to pro●uce some testimonies to prove it . iudicious and blessed dr. ames ●a●th , that in case of pertina●ious separati●n su●h persons , though they may be of the invisible , yet they are not to be accounted members of the v●si●le church . ans. . suppose you should prove that a church-member may [ possibly ] become no member without a censure ; yet we are still utterly to seek of proof that ●●e children in question do so . . how can a separation be properly pertinacious and incurable , or appear so to be , till the means of church discipline have been used ? . ames his meaning may be , that such are not to be accounted lawful and approved members , as in the close of that chapter ( de consc. lib. . cap. . ) he saith , ● sch●smatical church is not to be accounted for a lawful and approved church . . we shall not deny but that some good divines do seem to hold , that in some cases of notorious wickedness , and apostacy , and so in case of absolute and universal schism ( of which ames there spe●ks ) especially in places and churches where discipline is not used ; men may be looked at as non-members , though the church did neglect to pass a formal censure : wherein we shall not trouble our selves with being their opponents . it sufficeth us , that in churches regularly using discipline , there is no ordinary way whereby offenders lose church-membership , but by excommunication : and that none can lose it while they live , that are not guilty of such evil as is censureable , or is matter of excommunication ; which the persons in question are not . another testimony here alledged , is from mr. cotton in his way of the churches , p. . where he saith , that many in churches have cut themselves off . ans. had the whole sentence been set down , every reader would have seen the impertinency of the allegation , as to the persons and case in question . mr. cot●●ns word● are these : many in other churches have ●ut themselves off from the covenant by their notorious wickedness and profaneness . and withall in the same place he addes , that arelapsed church , with all the members of it , are bound to renew their covenant in order to reformation : which shews , that they were not wholly cut off before , though their membership was but by being born in the church , and baptized , for of that he there speaks . we doubt not , but among the members of such relapsed churches might be found many much more degenerate ; then those described in the synods fifth preposition ; much less therefore are those discovenanted , but being in covenant , are bound to renew it in order to full communion . the next testimony here produced , is from those words in the discourse of church-covenant , pag. . viz. that if men had not promised , and also performed in some measure of truth , the duties of faith and obedience unto god , they had not taken hold of the covenant , but had discovenanted themselves , notwithstanding all the promises of god unto their fathers and others . thus though god promised abraham to be a god to him , and to his seed in their generations , genes . . yet the ishmaelites and edomites descending from abraham , were discovenanted by not promising nor performing those duties of faith and obedience which god required on the peoples part . now if this ( saith the apologist ) were truth in the year . ( as it then had the approbation of the elde●s hereabouts ) we see no reason why it should not be truth in the year . for , veritas in omnem partem sui semper eadem e●t . either this was a mistake then , or else it is a truth at this day . ans. let the words here cited , be c●ndidly interpreted , and they contain nothing repugnant to the present doctrine of the synod . for , it is true , that if men do not promise , or do not perform in some measure ( yea in some measure of truth , i. e. visibly , and in charitable and ecclesiastical reputation ) the duties of faith ▪ and obedien●e into god , they do discovendat themselves , i. e. they do it meritoriously , and do what lies in them ●n th●● part to destroy their membership : and ●hey so do it , as will inferre the absolute loss of their membership , viz. either by formal excommunication , if you speak of particular persons , and if the church do her duty ; or by the lor●s giving them a bill of divorce , if you speak of whole bodies of people , as here the ish●●cel●●s 〈◊〉 a e●ountes are spoken of . but what is all this to the children of our churches , de●●rib●d in the synod● fifth proposition , who do promise , and do in some ●easure though not in so full , a measure as were to be desired ) perform the duties of faith and obedience . this might be true in . and in . also . and yet our assertion may be true , and yours false notwithstanding . let our children appear to be such as the edo●ates and ishmaelites were ; or let them appear to be such as do in no measure ( yea , i. ● no meas●re of truth , i. e. as to church-visibility , or charitable hope ; for the church ●●ng● no further ) perf●rm the duties of faith and obedience , and we will with you plead , to have them put out of the church . but till then , i. e. as long as they do in some measure ( though yet but in a small and initiall measure ) perform the duties , and retain the essentials of christianity , or of faith and obedience ; they continue ( yea regularly continue ) in the church , for ought that hath yet appeared , either in . or in . we are loth to take notice of the insulting expressions that are here used , which are too-too uncomely ; especially there where th●●●fth commandment requireth special honour : but the intelligent reader will easily see the vanity of this con●●dence , to bring a testimony concerning the discovenanting of the ishmaelites and edomites , ( for they are expre●ly instanced in , as the explication of the not-promising , nor performing the duties of fa●●rand obedience intended by the author ) and then to triumph in it , as if that proved the discovenanting of our hopefull and non-excommunicable children , or thwarted the doctrine of the synod . when it is here added , [ this is the main thing wherein we dissent from the major part of the synod ] if by [ this ] be meant the assertion which is before expressed ; viz. that a church-member may possibly become no member , without any act of the church in formal censuring of him : then it is a great and ●trang● mi●re●resentation to say , that this is the main po●ut of your dissent . for , there be them that do ●eartily consent to all the concl●sions of the synod , and yet d● hold , and did in the synod express as much , that in some notorious cases , and where the church neglects her duty ( as hath been before said ) persons may be broken off , and looked at as non-members , though not formally censured ; or that a church-member may possibly , in some cases , become no member , without a formal censure : the reader therefore is greatly mis-led , and mis-informed , when he is told that this is the main point of our dissent . but when you a●●ert , that the children in question are become no members , or that persons , who were before members , do become no members as soon as ever they are adult , meerly by want of fitness for full communion , though they neither have not deser●e to have any church-censure pa●led upon them : this we confess is a main point wherein you dissent from the synod , and ( we suppose ) from scri●ture , and sound reason too . preface . here let us adde the words of mr. cotton , in his excellent treatise of the holiness of church me●bers , which are these following : [ such as are born and baptized mem●ers of the church , are not cruelty continued and confirmed members , unless when they grow up to years , they do before the lord and his people prayes their repentance and faith in ie●us chr●st ] answ. it is manifest , that by confirmed members , all along in that book , mr. cotton●eane● ●eane● such as are admitted to ●u● communi●n , or to the lords supper , and voting , ( and so he d●th expressly explain himself pag. . ) and for that , it is well known , we stand ●ully for the same qualifications that mr cotton intendeth according to h●●●erm of di●cipli●e , cap. ● sect. . the word [ continued ] is indeed added in pag . ( though not so in pag. 〈…〉 that book ; but it is added in a copulative way [ continued and confirmed ] w●ere all the parts must be taken together , to make up the truth of such an axiome . besides that the p●r●ons in question do make so●e profession of faith and repentance , i e. in an initial and educational way , so as sufficeth to their continuance in the visible church , though it may not at present suffice to full communion . mr. cotton was farre from conceiving that such non-scandalous persons as are the subject of our question are to be cut off , or looked upon as cut off from continuance in the church ; as ( besides what is cited of his in the synods preface ) may appear plainly out of this very treatise ( which is well called by our brethren an excellent treatise ) of the holiness of church-members ; for pag. . men ▪ ●oning a distinction of mr. ruther●urds , that a church may be termed no church , no spouse jure & meritò , & quoad vocationem passivam , in respect of bad deserving , and their not answering to the call of god , on their parts ; and yet the same church remain de 〈◊〉 , ●or aliter , & quoad vocationem det activam , the spouse and bride of c●rist : he sai●● , this distinction i can admit , if it be understood of a church hat hath formerly answered the call of god , and submitted to the ministry of the gospel , at least in outward propession of the fundamentals of sound doctrine , and pure worship : for such a chur●h , though they or ●heir children may afterward degenerate , and go a wher●ng from god in doctrine and worship , yet god in his patience and bounty is not wont so ●con to cast off ●hem , as they cast off him the next generation after 〈◊〉 ●e● , a ●horing from go● , and f●rs●ck the lord god of their fathers , and served baalim , yet still the lord accounted them his people , and sent them iudges and prophets to restore and recover them . and pag , . he mentions distinctly by way of consectary from the proposition here cited by our brethren , two or three sorts of persons w●o are not to be continued in the church● though born and baptized in it ; viz. . the grosly ignorant of the first principles and foundations of religion — . persons notoriously scandalous for any gross crime , as i●latry , adultery , &c. but not a word of such an intere●ce as our brethren s●em to make , viz. the discontinuance or unchurching of such a sort of persons as are the subject of our question . and it is observable all along in that book , that he pleads not for the un-membering of any that are once in the church , yea though they came in but by a membership received in infancy ( for of such he often expresly speaks , and such were the members of those churches he disputes upon in answer to his opponents ) but onely such as are scandalous and wicked , and deserve excommunication , and he would have them also un-membered by excommunication , and not by a self-felony onely : see pag , , , , , , . preface . renowned parker , steaking of the interpretation of those words [ laying on of hands ] in heb . . cites many judicious writers , whose judgement he expresseth in words to this purpose ; that they who were baptize in minority , when they are grown up , after that the church had approved their faith by the symbol of imposition of hands they were admitted members of the church : this was according to sound doctrine in the primitive times ( as parker saith . ) now we demand , how they can be admitted as members ▪ who are already as compleat , and perfect members as any in the chur●h ? but the ancient doctrine was , that children who were baptized in minority , after they shall come to pro●ess their faith so as to be accepted of the church , may be admitted as members : therefore according to the ancient doctrine , such children are not as compleat and perfect members as any in the church . answ. whether the words [ tanquam membra admittehantur ] be parkers own words or calvins ( for he speaks as if he cited only calvins words ; yet we ●inde not those expressions used by calvin either on heb. . . or in his institutions , de confirmatione , though in both places is the substance of the thing which parker alledgeth from him ) the matter is not great . it is manifest from the whole discourse , that parker is there speaking of such as are admitted to full communion ▪ as we call it . if he there used the term [ members ] for persons admitted to the lords table , and to all church-priviledges , it is no harder phrase , then hath been used in this country for many years , yet that argues not that we do , or that parker did think children to be no members before . it is observed of the ancients . that they sp●ke more securely before the rise of pelagius ; men are less curious in expression , when they speak about points of which no controversie is moved , and wherein their judgements are otherwise sufficiently known . as what is more abudantly and univers●lly agreed on among all our divines , then this , that the children of believers are members of the church , or a part of it ? parker , within six lines of the place cited , calls them [ in ecclesiâ nati ] born in the church ; and opposeth them to [ extranei ] i. e. to such as are without ▪ dr. ames gives it as the doctrine of the protestants , the infants of the faithful , unless they were to be accounted members of the church , they cu●● not to be bapti●ed , vrsin and pareus say . omnes iique soli &c. all and onely th●●e are to be baptized by christs command , who are his disciples ( mat. . . ) i. e. those that are , and one to be accounted members of the visible church , whether they be adult persons professing faith and repentance , or infants born in the church . again , the infants of christians do as well as the adult belong to the covenant and church of god , and are therefore to be baptized , because the whole church ought to be baptized . c. techet . explicat . pag. . this truth is joyntly 〈…〉 protestant a●d reformed churches , as appears in the harmony of their confessions ; the children of t●e faithful are gods peculiar people and in the church of god , ( 〈…〉 , pag . ) reckoned in the number of gods people , ( bohemian 〈◊〉 , pag. . ) god doth together with the parents account their posterity also to be of the church , ( f●●nc c. ●●mon , p●g . ) they condemn the anabaptists , who hold tha● 〈◊〉 ●e no● 〈◊〉 the church ●f god , ( confession of auspurg , pag. . ) infants belong to the covenant an● church of god , as well as the adult , saith the pal●tinate catechism , que●● . ● . now ●●is being so , that it is the manifest doctrine of all our divines , that children are me●bers ●f the church ; and neither did they imagine , that when ●d●lt they drop ●ff by a self ●●lony , or we know not how : for when erasmus had said , that ch●l●ren bei●g grown 〈◊〉 they being askt , would not sta●d to what had been promised in their behalf , they ●ere to be le●t to themselves : calvin 〈◊〉 it as the saying of a man not wel exercised in ch●rch-government (h) . see also chemnit . exam. conc. trid. par . . de baptis . can. . & de confirmat . sub can. . whose words in the former of these places , the rea●er may find engli●●ed in the beginning of mr shepards treatise ●bout children●●ely ●●ely printed . and cartwright to ●●at question , what are the duties of the rest of the church that are pres●nt at a c●i●des baptisme ? answers , . to rejoyce and be glad at ●he increase of gods church — when the childe come●h to age to do such duties as one member ●w●●h to another : he did not think its memb●rship ceased with infancy , but ( saith he ) when it cometh to age , such duties are to be do●e to it as one member oweth to another . hence we say , is it rational so to und●r●t●nd parker or calvin , as if they did think ( or approved it as sound doctrine in others to think ) that they who were baptized in minority , when after they are grown up , they have approved their faith , they are then first admitted me●bers , as if they were no members of the church before ? as the reader would think that that were the scope a●d sense of the testimony here cited . but to cite shreds●f ●f passages in authers in a sense contrary to those auth●rs known and declared judgement , is very injurious both to them and to the reader . he that reads what this preface here saith , would think that it is the iudgement of many judicious writers cited by parker , that children do then first enter into church-members●ip when their f●ith is approved by the church , after they are grown up , and that they are not members at all before that : when as it is most certain , and evident , that neither parker , nor any judicious writer cited by him , nor any one heretofore approved for a judi●ious writer , eit●er ancient or m●dern , did indeed so judge , but the contrary . and parkers words are clearly intended in another sense , viz. with reference in full communion . and so speaking of the very same matter in the first book of his ecclesiast . ●elit . cap. . he saith , that in the reformed churches the adult are ex●mined by the presbytery , approved by the consent of the people , and received by the wh●le church as members of the●r communion in a special manner , and so are as it were confirmed before they be admitted to the l●rds supper ; where [ members of their communion in a special manner ] is the same with [ members in full communion ] in our language : and so ●is words , together with the known practice of the reformed churches , do plainly confirm our distinction between initiated members and member , in f●● . communion ; but they are far from int●nding or holding forth either a denial of childrens membership , or a cessation thereof as soon as they become adult . as for the inference that is here made from parkers te●●imony ; therefore according to the ancient doctrine such children are not as compleat and perfect members as any in the church an● if his words do ●old in the s●nse in w●ich they are here alledged , then children are not onely members●s ●s any in the church , but they are not me●bers at all , or non-me●bers , seeing they are not ( it seers ) admitted membe●s , till when adult they have made their pr●fe●●●on . as for their being compleat and perfect members ▪ it s well known we say and hold that they are not compleat or perfect in point of communion , or priviledge , but onely in regard of the essence or relation of membership , i. e. they are properly and compleatly within the church , and not half in , and half out . to be ( ●ccording to divine institution ) within the church , is to be a member of the church , as the book ( before which this pref●ce is set ) well owns , pag. 〈…〉 any man ●●ew us one or●h●dox divine , or judicious writer , before or i● parkers dayes , that ever said that the children of the fai●●ful are ( either w●ile infants , or when ●dult , suppo●ing them not excommunicate nor deserving so to be ) not within the church . but with●l we hold , and so did parker , and the reformed churches , that ●●ere are many within the church , who may not ●ave co●pleat or ju●● communion in all the priviledges ●●ereof , and so are not compleat or perfect members in that ●ense , and ●word medu● . lib. . cap. . thes. . it is not we but you , that will have children ( 〈◊〉 l●ast all adult c●●ldren ) to be as compleat , a●d perfect members ( in this sense ) a● any in the church , or else to be no members at all , seeing you ac●nowl●dge none that are adult to be members unless they be in full communion . it is ●ur●●er added ; that when they are adult , in case they do not joyn unto the church , then they do not retain their members●ip which ●hey 〈…〉 minority n●w to joyn to the church is the act of one that is not j●yned , or is not a member ; so that unless , they 〈◊〉 themselves to be not members ( or unless they own thems●lves to ●●ve lost their membership ) they do not retain their member●●ip ; this we confess we do not understand . but so much for the discour●e upon the third objection . in the answer to the fourth objection , there is an high profession of much zeal for church care and watch to be extend●d tow●rd children , and much cle●rness therein ( even as the light at noon , and as if it were written with the beams of the sun ) so as that the reader would expect to finde very ample ●●tisf●ction in that matter ; but when it comes to , it ●●lls flat to no more but this ; that the watch over them is to be mediate according to the state of their membership : the church is to see that the parents ●● their duty toward their ●h●ld●en now we demand whether this be any more then the church should extend to a negro , or indian living in the family of one of their brethren , for should they not see that he do his duty toward him , and that in reference to the things of rel●gion ? yea , we might further ask whether this mediate watch ( viz. by seeing that the parents do their duty ) doth not belong as much to children when they are rejected and dis●●rne● by the church , as our brethren would have them ? and what shall become of children when their parents are dead ( as how many f●therle●s and motherless children are amo●g us ? ) or farre removed , and when children are sui juris , and not under the wings of their parents ? and why also should not baptism and catechizing ( as well as other church-benefits ) be dispensed onely mediately●nd ●nd not immediately unto children ? the reader may here see that the difference about 〈…〉 and immediate membership is more then a notion , it contains under it a thing of great moment . this mediate membership is made a medium to put our poor children from under the govern●e●t of christ , a●d to set them ( in their own persons ) as lamos in a large place . for by this the church hath nothing to do with them , nor can put forth any act ( e●●er of watch or censure ) immed●ately upon them , but upon their parents onely . but that church-watch ▪ government , no discipline is to be extended and administred to our children person●lly and immedi●a●ly ( i. e. according as in regard of age , and understanding they are capable there f ; viz. instruction and inspection , and that in an official way , even in younger years , a●d formal censures when adult , if they f●ll into such offences as do need ●nd deserve the same ) the reader may finde confirmed in the sy●●ds arguments , and in the following defence thereof (k) . haply the a●sertion 〈…〉 mediate church-care , is ●●eltered u●d●r that clause [ those ch●ldren that are in minority . ] b●● . . much help ( by instructions ▪ counsels , warnings repro●fs , exhortations , &c. ) and that in an authoritative way , and upon the account of their memberly relation , may be administred unto children thems●lves immediately in their own p●rsons ( besides looking to parents that they do their du●ies to them ) even while they are in their minori●y , though not yet capable of publick censures . . they are in the same state and relation to the church ( though not of the same capacity ) when in minority and when adult : if therefore ( not because of their natural incapacity , but ) because of the nature of their membership , onely mediate , and no immediate church-care , watch and government belong to them , while in minority , neither doth it belong to them when adult : and therefore this notion excludes all our children , both younger and elder from being under any church-government immediately in their own persons . so that let them run on in never such vile courses , the church cannot deal with them but with their parents onely ; and yet the case may often so be , that the parents are neither blameable for their misc●rriages , nor able to reform the same . but as mediate as their member●●ip is , here is somewhat added , that shall touch these adult children themselves ; and what is that ? why , i● when they 〈◊〉 be adult they do not bring forth fruits of repentance , and faith , then the church is to dis●wn them , at having no part in the lord. ans. . is this according to the spirit of christ , or like the lords proceeding with his covenant-people in the scripture , presently to disown them , and cast them off , if some evil fruits , nay if want of g●od fruits be 〈◊〉 in them , then at first step to call them loam●i , and tell them they have no part in the lord ? hath the lord vouchs●fed to take these persons into his g●orious cove●●nt , and ●o real it to them in baptism before men and angels ; and doth it come but to this ? that if poor childre● , as soon as the day of ripe understanding d●wns upon them , do not bring 〈◊〉 the fruits of faith and repentance , yea such fruits as may sit them for fel● communion , they are then presently declared to be discovenanted , and to be turned d●ift as those who have no part in the lord ? it is true , the most hopeful childe , yea the best of us all , might justly be discovenanted by the lord , should he strictly mark what is amis● ▪ and deal acc●rding to our deserts ▪ but he is graciously pleased not to proceed with 〈◊〉 severity , but with much patience and long suffering towards those whom he once take , into covenant . and who or what is man , that he should be more holy then the lord ! let but that one scripture be looked upon ( among many other ▪ ) touching the barren fig-tree , which is here cited , as if it gave some countenance to this present disowning , in case of barrenness . the lord comes in the time and season of fruit , and findes none , and yet he waits another year after that , and a third after that ( i. e. a long time , and with great demonstration of patience ) before he speaks of cutting it down ; and then the vine-dresser ( acted therein by the spirit of god ) cries ( not cut it down presently , but ) lord , let it alone one year more ( i. e. till it appear utterly hopeless , and incureable ) that i may dig about it , and dung it : he chooseth rather to make it a subject of labour and culture , then to case himself by rid●●ng his hands of it . also that parable points to the people of the iews , to and among whom chr●st preached : now the following story of the new testament tells us , that christ and his apostles w●ited on them , till they appeared altogether incureable and inc●rrig●●e , and till their incureable barre●ness dis●overed it self by p●sitive fruits of wicked opposing and rejecting the gos●el before they were cut down , or broken off : and the ap●●tles when they preached to the adult , and yet impenitent iews , did not tell them they had no part in the lord , but on the contrary expressly told them , they had a part in the lord , and in his covenant-dispensations , and urged that as an argument to ●raw them to repent and believe , though they had not yet done it , acts . . , . acts . , . they were farre from being an occasion of making them cease from fearing the lord , by telling them they had no part in him . . suppose any of these children when adult do bring forth some fruits of faith and repentance ▪ ( as those , des●ribed in the synods fifth proposition , can hardly be denied in charitable reputation to do ) though not so full and ripe fruits as were to be desired , and haply not such , as themselves do finde encourage●ent to approach to the lords table ; what shall be done to these ? shall they be owned ▪ or disowned ? are they in the church , or out ? if in , why is baptism denied to their children ? if out , how co●e they so to be ? or where doth god in his word say , or allow us to say to such hopeful young men and women , as through grace many of our children are ( though not yet in full communion ) that they have no part in the lord ? . w●at is t●is disow●ing ? and where shall we have scripture-warrant for such a church-disowning as is not excommuni●ation ? for that , our bret●ren see not warrant to proc●ed unto ; but 〈◊〉 down this rule [ the church is to disown them , or having no part in the lord ] if any man speak ( especi●lly if he speak rules according to w●ic● the church is to practise ) let him speak as the oracles of god. it were needful that this disowning ( contradistinguished to excommunication ) should be cleared from thence . admonition and excommunication we hear plainly of in the scripture , and in orthodox divinity ; but a disowning , that is a kinde of publick church-censure , and yet is neither admonition , nor excommunication , this seems to be a new invented piece of discipline . we demand , whether this disowning be not a putting one out of the church , that was before in it ? if so , what is it but excommunication , which the apostle expresseth by that [ put away from among you , cor. . . ] if not , is it not a vain thing ? the person whom you are about to disown is either within the church , or with●ut ; a member , or not a member (l) if he be within , why may you not judge and censure him with the censure of cutting off , or casting out , i. e. excommunication ( cor. . , . ) there being cause for it ? if he be without , why should you disown him , any more then you do non-members , or such as were never joyned to the church ? would it not seem a strange and vain thing , if the church should put forth a solemn publick act to disown a company of non-members that are without the church ? to what purpose should this be ? how acts . . here cited in the margin , should make for this disowning , we understand not . peter there tells simon magus , that he was farre from having any part or lot in the matter of conferring the extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost , which he never had , but ambitiously aspired after ; but doth not declare that he had discovenanted himself , or had lost his membership which he once had . and whatever became of simon magus afterward ( of which the scripture is silent , and stories uncertain ) there is no ground to think , that he was then put out of the church , or lost his membership . but rather the apostle ( by grave apostolical rebuke and counsel ) applies himself to him , as to one in the church , to bring him to repentance , and to that sincerity of grace , which he yet wanted , vers● , . as for the reason here rendred , why excommunication agrees not to the children in question , viz. because it is applicable to none but those who have been in full communion . this is but a begging of the question , and carrieth not evidence of truth with it . 〈◊〉 excommunication ( i. e. the utmost censure , so called ) doth not properly or nextly debarre or exclude from full communion , but it cutteth off from membership ( rendreth a person as an heathen and publican , mat. . . ) and so from that communion that belongeth to a member as such . when a person that hath stood for some time admonished , is afterward , for his contumacy , excommunicated , it is not excommunication that doth immediately and properly put him out of full communion , for that was done by admonition ; whereby , being ecclesiastically unclean , he was justly suspended from eating of the holy things : but excommunication cuts him off from membership , which admonition did not . hence it is not full communion , but membership that doth properly , and formally render a person a subject capable of excommunication : hence it agrees to all that are members though they have not been in full communion ; and every member hath some communion though not full communion , and therefore may be excommunicated . paul when he is speaking of the churches judicial proceeding , and that unto excommunication , makes it applicable to all that are within , cor. . . if in full communion , yet church-judgement f●lls upon them not as in full communion , but as within . the casting out of cain and ishmael , the cutting off of the born members of the church of israel from their people ( an expression often used ) the casting out of the children of the kingdome , matth. . . do at least by consequence , and by proportion , and parity of reason , shew that the children in question may be cast out , and cut off from the church by the censure of excommunication . as for that term of [ formal ] excommunication , we know not that we are limited to this or that precise form of words , in excommunicating one sort or other ; but the formal nature of the thing ( viz. a putting of one out of the church that was before in it ) this well agrees to the persons in question . we pass by the fifth and last objection ( which chargeth our dissenting brethren with weakness , ignorance , &c. ) as containing nothing that is argumentative to the matter in hand . neither do we own the objection , unless it be against our selves , who are ( as we have acknowledged in our preface to the synods conclusions ) poor , feeble , frail men , desiring not to trust unto , or boast of any strength of our own ( which is none at all ) but onely to the strength and grace of jesus christ , withall acknowledging that grace of his , whereby he doth vouchsafe sometimes to reveal his truth unto babes . we tender onely scriptures and scripture-arguments , for that which we maintan , desiring that they may be impartially considered , without challenging to our selves , or pleading for the reputation of strength or wisdome . in disputes of this nature , it is impossible but that e●ch part should look upon the arguments on either hand , as strong or weak , according as they are perswaded . but can we not deal with arguments , without being supposed to reflect upon the persons each of other ? we suppose you do not see sufficient strength in our arguments ( for then you would judge as we do ) and in that sense you do impute weakness to them . in the like sense do we unto yours , but desire to do it without any harsh reflexions upon the persons of our brethren , and without liftings up in our selves , who have cause enough to lye in the dust before god and man. but here our brethren take occasion to set down the reasons of their dissent from the synod : which make up a second main part of this preface . the consideration whereof we shall now address our selves unto . reason . the synod did acknowledge , that there ought to be true saving faith in the parent , according to the judgement of rational charity , or else the ch●l●e ought not to be baptized . but they would not let this ( which themselves acknowledged ) be set down , though our vnity lay at the stake for it . answ. the regular receiver of the truth , is one that divides the hoof , as well as chews the cud ; one that doth not take all in a lump , but distinguishes , and rightly divides between things that differ . we are to distinguish here , . between faith in the being or first beginning of it , whereby one is , or is reputed to be in the state of a believer , the charitable , judgement whereof runs upon a great latitude ; and faith in the special exercise of it , whereby one is fit for that special communion with , and active fruition of christ , which is the scope of the lords supper : unto the visible discovery whereof , more lively fruits , and more experienced operations of faith are requisite . . distinguish between the internal grace it self , which is required of them that partake of sacraments in the sight of god ; and those external signs of that grace which the church is to proceed upon in her admission of persons unto sacraments . these two distinctions being attended , and rightly applied , will help to clear both the truth it self in this matter from mistakes , and the proceedings of the synod from those uncomfortable reflexions that are here cast upon them . the former of these distinctions , and the application thereof to the matter in hand , we have in dr. ames ; (a) children ( saith he ) are not to be admitted to partake of all church-priviledges , untill first increase of faith do appear , but from those which belong to the beginning of faith , and entrance into the church , they are not to be excluded . where the doctor distinguisheth between ( initium fidei ) the beginning of faith ; and ( incrementum fidei ) the increase or growth of faith , and makes the former to suffice unto baptism , but the latter to be requisite to full communion , or to the lords supper . an initial faith entitleth to the seal of initiation , but a grown faith ( i. e. a faith of some growth , though yet farre short of perfection , and needing to grow still ) a faith growing up unto some sensible and lively exercise , is requisite unto the sacrament of growth and fruition . they were believers , yet but initial believers that iohn baptized , in the first dawning or beginning of the gospel , mark . — . the apostles constantly baptized persons upon the first beginning of their christianity , but the lords supper followed after , as annexed to some progress in christianity . the latter distinction also is obvious and necessary . who ought to come , and , who ought to be admitted , are two distinct questions , say vrsin , and (c) parem . we grant that true saving faith and repentance is required by god of those that partake of sacraments for themselves , or for their children : but the question is , what are the external signs and tokens of that grace , which an ecclesiastical charitable reputation may proceed upon ; for we can go no further then the judgement of rational charity ( as here our brethren acknowledge ) and that proceeds upon outward probable signs , leaving the infallible knowledge of the heart to god onely . the distinction between a iew outwardly , or a visible jew that hath praise of ( or approbation among ) men , and inwar●ly●●at ●●at hath praise of god , is a scripture-distinction , rom. . , . and is necessary to be attended h●re ; for , de ●ecultis non judicat ecclesia , cor. . . and here also we conceive , that the same strictness , as to outward signs , is not necessary unto a charitable probable jud●ement or hope of the being of faith , or of that initial faith that entitleth to bap●ism , as is unto the like judgement of the spe●ial exer●ise of faith that is requisite to the lords supper ; there be many things that do both really , and in the just reputation of men , hinder the exercise of grace , and so hinder from the lords supper , which yet do not away● charitable hope of the being of grace , or the state of a believer . if a man be under offence in the church , he is suspended from the lords supper ( till a renewing or exercise of repentance do appear ) yet we still repute him to be in the state of a believer , or to have the being of grace . now then to apply this to the synods proceedings , for answer to what is here s●id , viz. [ that the synod did acknowledge there ought to be true saving faith in the parent to the judgement o● rational charity , or else the childe ought not to be baptized ; yet could not be prevailed with to set this down ●●r a conclusion . ] . we did and do acknowledge , that in ecclesiastical charitable reputation , there must be faith , ( yea true saving faith ; those words hurt us not , provided they be not ▪ so strained , as to turn charity into r●gid se●erity ) i. e. the being of faith whereby a person is accounted to be in the state of a believer ( baptism being , as was in the synod alledged , annexed properly to the state of a believer , or to the covenant-state of a person , and not to the present act or exercise of faith ; and hence though there be no parent alive to act for the childe , and the childe cannot at present act for it self , yet that hinders not its baptism : ) but we did not acknowledge , it was necessary there should be faith in the lively and special exercise of it , such as we justly require an appearance of unto rational charity , in order unto full communion , which is that our brethren aim at , and stand for , in all whose children they will have baptized . and to set down a conclusion in general terms , when the nature of the case calls for distinct●ess , is not rational . our main work was to consider of , and pitch upon such external signs and characters , as the churches charity might and should proceed upon in this case . we all own , that onely visible believers , or visible saints , are to have their children baptized ; but the question is , who are to be accounted visible believers ; and we say that those described in the f●●●h proposition are of that nu●b●r . to have put it in such a general term , as [ those that profe●s , or hold forth faith and repentance unto the satisfaction of rational charity ] had been to leave the matter as obscure as we found it , and in stead of giving light to the churches ( which is the end of synods ) to leave the● in the dark without any help to discover their way : for still they are to seek , who those are that are to be accounted professors of faith and repentance , and what profession that is , that charity may accept in order to their childrens baptism . besides , it is well known , that those expressions [ of holding forth faith and repentance , &c. ] have been constantly so taken in this country , as to hold forth the qualifications required for full communion : and that was it which our brethren strove for , so to screw up the expre●sions for bap●ism , as that all that have their children baptized must unavoidably be brought to the lords table , and to a power of voting in our churches , wherein we cannot consent to them : and however we are charged with corrupting the churches , yet we believe time will shew that that principle that over inlargeth full communion , or that will have all of whom we can have any hope that they have any good in the● , to come to the lords table ; this ( we say ) will prove a church-corrupting principle , and those that have laboured to keep up the p●rtition here ▪ will be found to have been s●riously studious of the parity and safety of the churches . . but when it is 〈◊〉 that the synod could not be brought to express what themselves acknowledge 〈◊〉 that the parent whose childe i● baptized must have faith to the judg●ent of charity , or which is all one must be a visible believer : we desire it may be considered with what truth this can be 〈◊〉 for it was offered ●gain and again to express it 〈◊〉 plai●ly , and particularly , if that would have satisfied as th●se that were present in those agitations ( too long here to be inserted ) may re●e●ber , and the proposition made ●as refused by some of themselves that dissented ; but it is competently expressed in the synods result , as now printed ; for when we limit the baptizable to confederate visible believers , and their infant-seed , in propos. . & . and then say , that those described in propos. , , & . are to have their children baptized , doth it not imply , that the parents , there described are confederate visible believers , unless you will make us to speak inconsistencies ? again , it is 〈◊〉 made one argument to prove the fifth proposition , that the parents there described are confederate visible believers . and do we not then express this , that the parent whose child● is to be baptized must be a confederate visible believer ? and is not that all one , as to have true faith in the judgement o● charity ? how then is it here said , that the synod would not let this which themselves acknowledged , be expressed , though our vnity lay at the stake for it ? surely such misrepresentation of things with so much injurious reflexion should be forborn by godly brethren . if that would have vnited us , to own that the parent must be a visible believer , it was owned , and granted toties quo●ies , and is contained in the propositions and arguments , as any intelligent reader will easily see but the disagreement lay here , that your selves would not consent to any such acceptation , or to any such characters or expressions of a visible be●●ever , but such as should unavoidably bring him into full communion . and we di●●ered about this , who are visible believers ? not whether the parents that have baptism for their children must be such . in sum , the reason of our disagreement , was not because we would not own our own principle ( as is here strangely represented ) but because we could not consent to yours , and because you refused to have a common principle any way expressed but so as might suit with your own nation , though our unity lay at the stake for it . reason . the second reason which our brethren here give of their dissent from the synod , stands thus ; there is no warrant in all scripture , to apply the seal of baptism unto those children , whose parents are in a state of unfi●ness for the lords supper . but the parents in question are in a state of unfitness for the lords supper ; therefore there is no warrant in all the scripture to baptize their children : this we suppose is the assumption , and conclusion that is understood , if this second reason be intended as a reason of their dissent from the synods fifth proposition . unless it be intended onely as a dissent from that which is ●●uched and contained in the synods discourse , viz. that some may have their children baptized , who yet are short of actual fitness for the lords supper : but the answer to it will take in both . and the answer will easily be given , if once we understand distinctly what is meant by [ a state of unfitness ] for the lords ●upper : now by a state of unfitness , must be meant either non-membership , and that is indeed a state of unfitness for the lords supper , which belongs onely to the church , ( though not to all in the church , yet onely to it ) and in this sense the assumption above mentioned is denied ; for the parents in question are members of the church , and in that respect in a state of fitness for the lords supper : i. e. being in the church ( or members thereof ) to them belong all church-priviledges , according as they shall be capable thereof , and appear duely qualified for the same ; they have jus ad rem , though not jus in re , as a childe hath a right to all his fathers estate , though he may not ( ought not to ) have the actual use and fruition of it , till he become to years , and be qualified with abilities to manage it . a free ●an is in a state of fitness to be a mag●stra●e or deputy ; ( or in some other office proper to freemen ) though for want of particul●r qu●lifications or orderly admission by election , he may haply never be one in such a sense every church-member is in a state of fitness for the lords supper . or else by [ a state of unfitness for the lords supper ] is 〈◊〉 [ want of actual qualifications fitting ] for it , whereby a person either is in himself short of actual fitness for the lords table , or wanteth church appro●ation of his fitness , and ●o wanteth an orderly admission thereunto . now in this sense we deny the major ( or proposition ) of the argument above mentioned , and do conceive that there i● warrant to be ●●und in scripture for the applying of baptism to children , 〈◊〉 parents do want actual qualifications fitting them for the lords supper among sundry other scripture evidences of it , one is from the analogie of the passeover , and circumcision in the church of i●rael , where the par●nt might want actual fitness for the passeover , by manifold ceremonial uncleannesses , and yet that hindred not the circumcising of the childe . now a liberty of arguing from thence to the gospel passeover , and gospel-circumcision ( i. e. to the lords supper and baptism ) is here granted and allowed : but 't is answered , that vnless the father were in a state of fitness for the passeover , he was not fit to have his childe circumcised . reply . wh●t state of fitness was the unclean iewish parent in , but onely a state of membership ? he was a member of the church , and so 〈◊〉 the parents in question ; and they need not , do not enter into a new membership when they are admitted to the lords table , no more then the iewish parent after his cleansing did . but in two things the case of the ceremonially-unclean jewish parent , holds proportion with the case in hand . . he must have other , and better qualifications then he hath at present , before he eat of the passover ; he is at present in a state of legal impurity ( and so , in regard of actual qualifications , in a state of unfitness ) but he must be in a state of legal purity and cleanness , before he partake of the holy things . . he must ( especially after some uncleannesses of a more remarkable nature ) be judged and pronounced by the priest to be clean , and so free to partake of the holy things , levit. . . so the parents in question must have their fitness for the lords table judged of , and approved by those in the church , to whom the power of such judgement and approbation doth belong : and having these two things ( personal qualifications , and church-approbation ) then ( and not before ) they are to come to the lords table ; and those two are all they need : they do not need a new admittance into membership ( as if they were before not of the church ) no more then the israelitish parent did . if any one object , that this legal uncleanness was but an accidental and ceremonial thing , and did not import the want of any moral or essential fitness for the passover : let him consider , that as the discipline then was mostly ceremonial (a) , and hence legal purity was then an essential qualification unto a regular fitness for the passover , and other holy things , and the want of it a reall barre ; so those ceremonies pointed unto moral and spiritual things to be attended by us now . their legal cleansings , washings , &c. did import , and signifie a special exercise of faith and repentance ; which therefore we may well require in those whom we admit unto full communion in the holy things of the gospel ; yet the present defect hereof doth not put the parent out of the church , nor exclude his children from membership , or from the initiatory seal of it , no more then a-like defect did then . we might also minde the case of one that hath been in full communion , but falling into offence is under publick admonition for it ; is not he in a state of unfitness ( taking it for want of actual fitting qualifications ) for the lords supper ? yet this will not debarre his childe from baptism , because he is not yet cut off from membership . neither doth his having once been in full communion alter the case , or render him more [ in a state of fitness ] then the parent in question is ; for the one , is a member as well and as truely as the other : and to be declined , and fallen off from supper-qualifications , and debarred from the lords table for open offence , is worse then for a young man simply not to have attained thereunto ( it is , at least , ecclesiastical●y worse . we speak not of what the inward state before god may be ; but that it is worse in foro ecclesiae , appears , because the church hath had and seen cause to dispense a publick censure in the one case , but not in the other ) now if a person may retain his membership , and so derive baptism-right to his children , notwithstanding his personal unfitness for the lords supper in the former case , why not as well , nay much more in the latter ? but let it seriously be considered whether there be any warrant in all the scripture to make the baptizing of the childe to depend upon the parents actual fitness for , or admission to the lords supper (c) . what fitness for the lords supper had those that were baptized by iohn baptist , and by christs disciples at his appointment in the beginning of his publick ministry ? what fitness had the iaylor , when himself and all his were baptized after an hours instinction ; wherein ( probably ) he had not so much as heard any thing of the lords supper ? the teaching of which followed after discipling and baptizing , as is hinted by that order in matth. . , and by the ancient practice of not teaching the catechumeni any thing about the lords supper till after they were baptized , as is witnessed by hanmer of confirmation , pag. , . albaspinans apud baxter of confirmation , pag. . we constantly read in the story of the acts that persons were baptized immediately upon their first entrance into membership , but we never read that they did immediately upon their first membership receive the lords supper , which strongly argues that membership , and baptism the seal thereof , is separable even in the adult from full communion . and that a man may have his children baptized ( as the iaylor , and others had ) and yet not presently come ( but need further instruction and preparation before he come ) to the lords supper . so farre is baptism from being inseparable from immediate admission to the lords supper , that we reade of no one , ( no not of the ●dult ) in all the new testament tha● was admitted to the lords supper immediately upon his baptism , from the first baptism of iohn , to the end of the acts of the apostles . there is but one place that sounds as if it were quickly after , viz. acts . , . which is here alledged by our brethren : but to that ; . there is no word about the lords supper in peters sermon , the heads whereof are in that chapter set down , though t●ere is somewhat of the other sacrament of baptism , ver . . and upon glad receiving 〈◊〉 is word they were baptized immediately , ver . . . hence there must be some time afterward for instructing them in the doctrine and use of the lords supper ( as paul nad some time for that a● corinth , cor. . . with acts . . ) before their admission t●ereunto , or participation thereof ; and so much is ●●●imated in the text , when it s said , they ( after their being added , and baptized ) continued in ( or gave sedulous attendance to ) the apostles [ doctrine ] fi●st , and then [ breaking of bread ] there was some time of gaining further acquaintance with christ , and with his wayes and ordinances ( and with this in special ) by the apostles doctrine and instruction , between their baptizing , and their participation of the supper : some time ( we say ) more or less , and that that was attained in a very little time then under those plentiful pourings forth of the spirit , requires usually a much longer time now in ordinary dispensation . the preface proceeds to strengthen their second reason by testimonies ; and the assertion which they seem to intend the proof of by these testimonies , is a very strange one ; viz. this : [ neither do we reade that in the primitive times baptism was of a greater latitude , as to the subject thereof , then the lords supper , but the contrary ] these words , as they are here set down , do speak as if in the primitive times baptism was not extended unto infants ; or at least no more , nor sooner then the lords supper was given unto them ( which is here presently well acknowledged to have been a grievous errour ) well might the anabaptist triumph if this could be proved , which indeed never was , nor can be : but we are willing to believe that our brethrens meaning is ( though it be not so expressed ) that the subject of baptism in ancient times was not of a greater latitude [ as to the adult ] then the lords supper , i. e. that no adult persons might have baptism for themselves or for their children , but such as were also admitted to the lords supper . but of this also we must say , that we finde not any thing that proves it , but much to the contrary . and though we have not met with any that have purposely handled this point touching the different extent of these two sacraments , yet we finde enough to shew us , that the churches of christ in all , especially in the best ages , and the choicest lights therein , both ancient and modern , have concurred and met in this principle ( as a granted and undoubted truth ) that baptism is of larger extent then the lords supper : so as that many that are within the visible church may have baptism for themselves , or at least for their chil●ren , who yet ought not presently to partake of the lords supper , or who do at present want actual fitness for it . the witnesses above cited , tell us that in ancient times they did not so much as impart any thing to the ca●echumeni about the lords supper , till after their baptism : and , if hanmer have rightly observed , even the adult , after their baptism , must have confirmation before they partaked of the lords supper . hanmer of confirmation , pag. — . and vid. pag. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or perfectus among the ancients , is as much as ( with us ) one in full communion ; but none were by them rec●oned to be 〈◊〉 ( in the rank of perfect christians ) that had not received the holy ghost either in extraordinary gifts , or in special confirming grace . see hanmer of confirmat . pag. . now it 's evident , that even in the apostles times sundry were baptized that had not so received the holy ghost , acts ▪ ; , . & : — . but there are sundry further evidences at hand ( were there room here to insort them ) which show that in those first ages of the church , there were many within the church , 〈◊〉 were debarred from the lords supper : wh● yet had their children baptized . in after 〈◊〉 how large baptism was , may easily be gathered : but that there was ( though t●o much l●xness ) some more restraint in the lords supper , appears by the canonists old verse , ebrius , infami● , erroneus , atque furentes , cum pueris , domin . non debent sumere corpus . as for the times since the reformation , it is most evident that godly reforming divines have in their doctrine unanimously taught , and in their practice ( many 〈◊〉 then . ) endeavoured a strict selection of those that should be admitted to the lords supper , when yet they have been 〈◊〉 large in poi●● of baptism ; and they still ●o upon this principle , that not all christians , nor a● baptized and genera●●y-professing christians , but onely such as are able ( or may be reputed able and careful ) to examine themselves , and discern the lords body , are to be admitted to the lords supper . but they reckon that all christians ( a● that are , in their account , within the visible church ) are to have their children baptized . be it that in practice they were , many of them , too lax and large in both the sacraments , chiefly through want of a due and effectual use of discipline ( by defect whereof many were sinfully tolerated in the church , who should have been cast out and cut off , and many suffered to come to the lords table , who should have been debarred and suspended ) of which themselves do 〈◊〉 sadly complain (b) . yet it shews thus much ( which is that we aim at ) that they held a different latitude of the two sacraments , as to the subjects thereof ( even in the very sense of our question ) denying the lords supper to many parents , whose children yet they scrupled not to baptize : this goes for currant among all our great divines as a granted principle , whereof many large and full testimonies might easily be produced . calvin in his geneva-cate●hism , to that question , whether pasters may give the sacraments to all ? answers , ●uod ad baptis●um pertinet , quia non nisi insantibus 〈◊〉 confertur , d●scre●●o ●●cu●●non habet : in can●●ero tavere dehet minister ne cui ipsam porrigat , quem indignum esse palàm constet . if calvin would baptize all children born among them without difference ( looking upon them as born within the visible church ) and yet not give the lords supper to all , then he would baptize some children whose parents he would not ad●it to the lords supper . lu●o● ▪ cr●●ius describing the subjects of baptism , saith , infantes verò omnes , &c. all such ●nfants as are either born of christian parents , or brought into the society of christians are to be baptized . but of the lords ●upper , s●lt quidem christians , &c. onely christians are to be admitted to the holy supper . yet not promis●u●usty all christians ; but onely those who both can and will examine themselves , rightly discern the lords body , and celebrate this sacrament unto a commemoration of the dea●h of chirst — but there are many in the christian church that either cannot or will not ●o those things and these are not to be admitted . 〈◊〉 , touching the lords supper ▪ saith , est sacramentum , &c. it is a sacrament appointed for such in the christian church as are already baptized and adult , and do examine themselves (a) . and in another place (b) unto this question , to whom is the lords supper to be given ? he answers , to all the faithful members of the church , who can examine themselves , and are instructed in the ministery of faith , and can 〈◊〉 forth the lords death . for unto this mystery there is required examination of ones self , and annunciation of the lords death . and therefore it is not to be given to vnbelievers not to infants , not to distracted persons , not to those that are ignorant of the mysteries , not to the impenitent , not to those that are by the orderly judgement of the church excommunicate not to such as are polluted either with ●anifest errours , or with any notorious wickedness , until they have first satisfied the church , and g●ve ▪ testimony of their repentance . compare herewith his latitude for baptism , exoresly granti●g that so sundry of thos● sorts , to whom he denies the lords supper (c) . ●ez● , concerning the question who are to be baptized ? saith ▪ all that are comprehended within the tables of the covenant , &c. (d) . but to that question , would you admit all sorts to the lor●s supper ? he an●wereth with great ze●l for 〈◊〉 and care therein , and among other expre●●●ons , th●se ( saith he ) whose 〈◊〉 age sheweth them not to be of ability to examine themselves 〈…〉 not as unworthy , but as not yet fit . ●ut of the adult no one is to be 〈◊〉 . except he have one may or other so given account of his faith at that the paster may probably gather ( not onely that he was born in the church but also ) that he is indeed a christian (e) . pelanius , touching the subjects of the lords supper , saith , vnto the lords supper maybe admitted onely christians 〈◊〉 baptized and adult , and such as can examine their 〈◊〉 , with thank 〈…〉 remember christ and shew forth (e) his death . but of baptism , all that are in covenant with god — infants born of christian parents are to be baptized . ge●k●r . in his c●●mon places a●●erts ●hat soli christiani , &c. onely christians ( i. e. such as embrace the doctrine of christ , as have received the sacrament of baptism , and are implanted into the christian church ) yet not 〈◊〉 christians are to be admi●●ed to the holy supper ; but according to paul●s rule these onely 〈◊〉 examine themselves , 〈◊〉 the lor●s body , a●● shew ●●rib the lords 〈◊〉 , cor . , , . all 〈◊〉 therefore are excluded , who either will not 〈…〉 examine themselves (f) . bu● he extends baptism to all children born of ( one or both ) christian parents , o● that come into the power of such (g) . the like may be observed in the confessions of the reformed churches , when as they declare for a special selection of those whom they admit to the lords supper● see the confe●●●●● of bohemia . harmony of confess . pag. . of belgia , pag. . of aus●●ge , pag. , . or saxony , p. , ● . ●nd the confession of scotland in the end of that harmony , pag. . comparing this with the deep silence of them ●ll touching any such selectio● in point of baptism● as to the children that are born among them : and it is kno●n to be their ordinary practice to baptize many children , whose parents they would not admit to the lords supper . all which , with many more testimonies that might be alledged , do abundantly shew it to have been the concurrent judgement of protestant divines , that baptism is of greater latitude then the lords supper : and that all that do bring their children to partake of the former , 〈◊〉 n●t therefore themselves presently partake of th● latter ; but that many may have their ch●ldren baptized , and yet regularly be debarred from the lords supper . we might also mention the concurrence of divines with us in particular reasons explications , and assertions relating to ●●is matter : ●● , that baptism is annexed to the ●eing or beginning of faith , the lords supper to the special exercise of it ▪ that baptism belongs to all members , but the lords supper to so●e onely that are so and so qualified : that all visible believers , ( who in a latitude of expression , and ecclesiastical reputation are such , as are all that are within the church ) are not to be admitted to the lords supper . vrsin and pareus , answering that objection against the baptism of infants , that then they must be admitted to the lords supper ; have these words : magnum discrimen , &c. there is a great difference between baptism and the supper . for , . baptism is a sacrament of entrance and r●ception into the church : but 〈◊〉 supper is a sacrament of continuance in the church 〈◊〉 confirmation of the reception 〈◊〉 made — . regeneration by 〈…〉 (h) and not to them presently , but after that they have held forth a confession of faith and repentance (i) . also it may be minded , that it is the currant and constant expression of our divines , that they call , and count all that are within the compass of the visible church ( whether infants , or adult ) fideles , v●cati , ( faithful , called &c. ) and they will tell you that they are for baptizing no infants but such as are ( infantes fidelium ) the infants of the faithful or of believers , infantes non omnes , sed duntaxat fidelium , i. e. baptizatorum , sunt baptizandi . chamier . tom. . pag. . so daneus , infantes ex fidelibus , i. e. baptiza●●s nati , possunt baptizari in ecclesia . lib. . de sacram. pag. . and yet they do not look at all these ( no not at all the adult that come under this denomination , and whose children they baptize ) to be regularly admittable to the lords supper , which plainly shews their judgement to be that all adult persons who are in a latitude of expression to be accounted visible believers ( or in ecclesiastical reputation to be lookt at as fideles ) are not therefore to partake of the lords supper . dr. ames , accounts that a person may be a believer on christ and yet be unfit for the lords supper , being not sufficiently instructed thereunto . bellar. enerv. tom. . lib. . cap. . and he expresly saith that church-children are to be numbred among the faithful , and reckons them to have the beginning of faith , yet not to be admitted to all ordinances till increase of faith appear , medul . lib. . cap. . thes. , . mr. hooker takes it for granted as a clear case , that one may be a convert soundly brought home to christ , and yet through his weakness not able to discern the lords body aright , nor fit to partake of the supper . survey . part . . pag. . and in his sermons on gen. . . pag. . he hath these words , baptism is the entrance into christs family ; there is much more to be looked at to make a person capable of the supper of the lord , a man must be able to examine himself , he must not onely have grace , but growth of grace ; he must have so much perfection in grace as to search his own heart , and he must be able to discern the lords body , or else he is guilty of the body and blood of christ ; so as there is more required in this , for there must be a growth . but baptism is our entrance , and the lowest degree of grace will serve here in the judgement of charity . worthy hildersam on psal. . . pag. . saith , the infants of the faithful are said to be holy , not because they are without sin , but because ( in the judgement of the church ) they are to be esteemed not infidels as other children of pagans , but christians and believers , and holy and true members of the church of god. and hence . so soon as they are born they have title to the seal of gods covenant , and the church may not deny it unto then . — and why may not the church deny baptism to any childe of a believing parent ? surely because the church is bound to esteem every such childe not an infidel , but rather a believer and a true christian. . when they dye we are in christian charity to judge that they dye in gods favour , and in the state of salvation . and all this because of the covenant , gen. . as he there addes . yet the same hildersam would not admit such as these ( who were born and grew up in the visible church ) to the lords table , without a strict examination not onely of their knowledge and lives , but of their spiritual estate . doct. of lords supper , pag. — . all which we produce , not as if the testimony and concurrence of authors were the basis that our judgement in this matter stands upon , but because this preface doth , both in this place and in other parts of it , insinuate to the reader as if authority of writers were for the dissenters , and against the doctrine of the synod , which is farre from being so : the contrary being abundantly , and undeniably evident . and as we bottom our faith in this point , wholly and onely upon the scriptures , and do referre the decision of this and of all other theological controversies to the law and to the testimony : so we acknowledge it to be no small confirmation to us , to finde that we have the concurrence of the godly-learned . the substance of the congregational-way may be gathered from the doctrine & principles of our best and ablest reforming divines (k) : which doth not a little confirm us in it , and delivers it from the imputation of novelty or singularity . but should we limit baptism to so narrow a scantling as our brethren strive for , we should therein go against the whole stream of divines , even of those that have been most eminent in their generations for learning , holiness , and studiousness of reformation ; yea , of those from whom our congregational leaders have professed to receive their principles , as was abovesaid . and we confess our selves conscious to so much of our own weakness , that unless we have very clear light , and undeniable argument constraining us , we are slow and fearful to go alone , or to go contrary to the concurrent judgement of our best divines , who ( if we may use our brethrens phrase ) have been stars of the first magnitude , incomparable champions for the truth , and have been raised up by christ to light the path of reformation in these later ages . now as for what is here alledged by our brethren as favouring their cause ; to say , that the catechumeni were not ( in the primitive times ) to be baptized , before they were fit for the lords supper . consider how it can consist with the above mentioned practice of antiquity , in not so much as teaching the catechumeni any thing about the lords supper , till after they were baptized . indeed , as the darkness and corruption of the times increased , baptism was not onely deferred till easter ( as is here said ) but till death , which is justly taxed as an abuse by cartwright in his catechism , pag. . and we suppose will not be approved by any . the arausiacan councils , canon ; doth not concern the matter of baptism , as it is set down by the magdeburg centurists ( cent. . pag. . ) but however it be , it is of small moment . the over-long holding off of adult converts from baptism , that we sometimes reade of in the fourth and fifth centuries , was a manifest devi●tion from the apostolical practice . we finde also that in austin's time , and some ages after , they gave the lords supper to infants , yet then we suppose they would give both sacraments to some infants , whose parents they debarred from the lords supper . but if it was indeed a grievous errour to administer the lords supper to infants ( as is here rightly said by our brethren ) how then is baptism of no greater latitude , as to the subject thereof , then the lords supper ? yea , let any man shew a reason why baptism should be regularly extendible to infants , and not the lords supper , if the very sa●e qualifications be absolutely requisite to the one as to the other ; we say , absolutely requisite ▪ for no man doubts but that the better qualifications a person who receiveth baptism for himself , or for his children , is endued with , the better and the more comfortable it is . as for that of iuel , that baptism is as much to be reverenced , ●s the sacrament of the body and blood of christ. and that which follows , that former ages have been farre from looking upon the lords supper as being of a more sacred nature then the other ordinance of baptism . answ. to assert that scripture rules make the subject of baptism larger then the subject of the lords supper , this doth not detract from the reverence of baptism , nor render it an ordinance of a less sacred nature , as is here insinuated . the word and prayer are ordinances of a very sacred nature , and to be highly reverenced , and yet many may be admitted unto them , that may not be admitted unto sacraments . the sacredness of every ordinance , lies in the holy and religious application of it to its proper ends and uses by divine institution : but the proper ends and uses of one ordinance may , by divine institution , be such as may admit more to partake of it then of another , and yet the sacred nature thereof be no whit impaired (b) . but the preface addes : indeed of late there have been those who have made baptism of a farre larger extent then the lords supper : this hath been one practical difference between congregational-men and presbyterians . answ. whether it have been onely a late or novell notion , to make baptism larger then the lords supper , let the reader judge , when he hath considered the testimonies before alledged , with many more that might have been added thereunto : but we are so farre from looking upon a different latitude of these two sacraments to be a presbyterian principle , or anti-congregational as that we perswade our selves , the congregational way cannot long stand without it . for , if we deny this , and administer baptism to none but those whose parents do partake of the lords supper , and so are in full communion ▪ then we must either make full communion very large , which in the congregational-way , where brethren have so great an interest in church-transactions , will soon ruine all : or else make baptism , and consequently the compass of the visible church so strait , as will never stand before rational and scriptural men ; yea , we shall put multitudes out of the visible church , that are in a visible state of salvation , which is absurd : for to deny persons baptism for themselves or children , is to deny them to be within the compass of the visible church , seeing baptism ought to run parallel with church-membership . but how shall we deny them a room in the visible church , who were once in , and are by no rule to be put out , nay whom god ( as we may charitably hope ) taketh into heaven when they die , and that as a fruit of his covenant-grace ? which is the case of many of our children who are not yet come up to full communion . but so much for the second reason of our brethrens dissent . the third follows . . the parents of the children in question , are not members of any instituted church , according to gospel rules ● because they were never under any explicite and personal covenant . which is former proved ; because if they be members , then they would be a true ▪ church though all their parents were dead , and then they must have power of voting in church-affairs , which is denied to them by the synod . ans. . . it seems , by what is here said , that our children were never under any explicite and personal covenant , and that all that never were so , are not members of any instituted church according to gospel-rules . if this be so , then what is become of childrens membership , which the apologist before , in answer to objection second , took it as an injury to be charged with the denial of ? it seems our children neither are nor ever were members of any instituted church according to gospel-rules , because they were never under any explicite and personal covenant . is it come to this , that children are not members of any instituted church ? how then ? are they members of the catholick visible church ? or are they no members at all ? the former our brethren fancy not , as it seems by their anti-synodalia , pag. . the latter then remains to be the conclusion . neither will it salve it to say , they were members in minority , though they be not members now when they are adult ; for if all those that were never under any explicite and personal covenant , be no members of any instituted church , and if children were never under any explicite and personal covenant ( both which are here said ) then no children ( no not while in minority ) are members of any instituted church . for our parts we doubt not to affirm with dr. ames in his chapter de ecclesia institutâ , that children are members of an instituted church according to gospel-rules , and that they are under personal covenant , i. e. personally 〈◊〉 into covenant by god , according to his gospel-rules , though they have not performed the act of covenanting in their own persons . yea , under explicite covenant also , if the parents covenanting was explicite , deut. . so ames , they are partakers of the same covenant , and also of the same profession with their parents . though we take it for a principle granted by congregational men , with one consent , that implicite covenant preserves the being of a true church , and so of true church-membership . . the consequent of our assertion here urged as absurd , viz. [ that then , in ease all the pro-parents were dead , this second generation would be a true ▪ church of christ without any further act or covenanting ] is no absurdity but a manifest truth , i. e. taking that phrase [ further act , or covenanting ] to be meant of a particular formal act of explicite verbal covenanting . for otherwise , there is a further act , yea an act of ( implicite ) covenanting in their constant and publick profession of the religion of their fathers . but we say this second generation , continuing ( to use mr. cottons phrase in grounds of baptism , pag. . ) in a visible profession of the covenant , faith , and religion of their fathers , are a true church of christ , though they have not yet made any explicite personal expression of their engagement , as their fathers did ▪ even as the israelites that were numbred in the plains of moab were a true church , and under the covenant of god made with them in horeb , though their parents with whom it was first made in horeb , were all dead , and that before the solemn renewing of the covenant with them in the plains of moab , deut. . see deut. . , . with numb . . , , . and so mr. hooker roundly and expresly affirms this which is here by our brethren denied , survey . part. . pag. . . as for our denial of the liberty of voting in church-affairs to the persons in question , till they be fitted for , and admitted to the lords supper , it stands good and rational without any prejudice to their being a true church in the case supposed . for there is no difficulty in it , to conceive that the case of a true church may be such ( by degeneracy , or loss of their best members , &c. ) as that they may be at present unfit to put forth or exercise a power of acting in church-affairs ( though it be radically in them ) till by the use of needful means they , or a select qualified number among them , be brought up unto a better and fitter capacity for it . and examples hereof are not farre to seek : let that way of reforming corrupt and degenerate churches be attended which is partly suggested in mr. allin's , and mr. shepard's preface , before their defence of the nine positions ( which preface beverly saith is instar omnium ) pag. , , , . viz. that they be acknowledged true churches , and called by the powerful preaching of the word to humiliation , repentance , and agreement unto reformation : and then that such as do so agree , and submit to discipline , being owned to be of the church ; among them a select number who are found upon tryal able to examine themselves , and discern the lords body , and do walk according to christ , do solemnly renew or enter into covenant , and so electing officers , &c. enjoy full communion , and carry on all church-affairs in the congregational way . this shews that a church may be out of case for the present exercise of a proper church power , and may need much preparation , and reducement into order before it come up thereunto : and yet this doth not hinder it from being a true church , nor from having that power radically in it , and which in a way of due order it may come to the exercise of . have not the late times had experience of many congregations unto which it was fain to be a publick care to sent ministers , and they to preach to them many years before they found a number fit for full communion and management of church-affairs ? and yet they retained the being of true churches , and church-members all this while . see also mr. shepards late-printed letter about the church-membership of children , pag. . we might also ask whether such a member of reasoning as is here used would prove women to be no members of an instituted church ? because if all the men were dead , they could not then be a church , nor vote in church-affairs , chuse officers , &c. but that which is said may suffice : onely let us adde , that as the case that is supposed , viz. of all the parents ( or all that were in full communion ) being dead , at once , is rarely , if ever heard of ; so also the case we added , viz. for the whole body to be fallen into an unfitness for full communion , by corruption and degeneracy , would be ( we may hope ) as rare , if discipline and other ordinances be kept up , in their use and vigour . god will so bless his own ordinances , if duely attended , as that a considerable number shall from time to time have such grace given them as to be fit for full communion , and to carry on all the things of his house with competent strength , beauty , and edification . the fourth reason of our brethrens dissent , is this : it is not meer membership ( as the synod speaks ) but qualified membership that gives right unto baptism : for john 's baptism might not be applied unto the standing members of the visible church , till they were qualified with repentance . this ( say they ) seems to us to cut the sinews of the strongest arguments of the synod for englargeme●●●f baptism : for neither doth the scripture acknowledge any such meer membership as they speak of ; nor is it meer membership , but qualified membership that gives right unto this divine and sacred ordinance . answ. this term or distinction of [ meer membership ] is here , as also in the book to which this preface is prefixed , much exagitated , and harshly censured : but let the plain meaning of the synod therein be attended , and there will appear no cause for such exagitation . when the synod said , that persons are not therefore to be admitted to full communion meerly because they are and continue members ; and that meer membership ( or membership alone ) doth not suffice to render men subjects of the lords supper , propos. . p. , . the meaning is , that full communion doth not belong to a member as such , or to a person meerly because he is a member , for then it would belong to all members , which it doth not . a person may be a member ( or in memberly relation ) and yet not bein full communion . now to say that meer membership ( in this sense ) the scripture acknowledgeth not , is as if one should say , that the scripture acknowledgeth not logical distinctions between things in their abstract and general nature , and the same things as clothed with various adjuncts and accessions ; which to say , were strangely to forget our selves . but when it is hence inferred and put upon us , that we set up a meer membership , and a sort of meer members in the church ; this is an unnecessary reflexion . as , if we should say that riches do not belong to men meerly as men , or meerly because they are men ; would it be a good inference to say , that we set up a sort of meer men ( or a meer humanity existing alone ) or that we distinguish men into meer men , and rich men ? there is no individual man in the world that is a meer man , i. e. that hath a naked humanity without adjuncts ; yet logick distinguisheth between humanity and its adjuncts , and between what belongeth to a man as such , and what accreweth to him other wayes , . so in the church ; membership , or memberly relation , is not existent in particular persons , without some communion flowing from it , nor yet without some qualifications ( unto charity ) under it , more or less , at least ordinarily ; though it may , and often does exist without those special and peculiar qualifications that fit men for the lords table . but surely we may well distinguish , especially between the memberly rel●tion and those special superadded qualifications , and between what belongs to persons in the one respect and in the other . for some priviledges in the church belong to persons by virtue of their memberly relation , or meerly because they are members ; they belong to a member as such : so does baptism , matth. . . the benefit of church-watch and discipline ( viz. according to natural capacity in regard of age , there is no other moral capacity but that of membership requisite to a subject thereof ) acts . . cor. . and a share in the common legacies of the covenant , rom. . , . & . . acts . , . meer membership , or membership alone , gives right to these things . but there be other priviledges in the church that do not belong to members as such ( or to persons meerly because they are members ) but to members as clothed with such and such special qualifications . so the passover and other holy things of old , and so the lords supper now , cor. . . now thus to distinguish , does not distribute members into meer members and others , but it distributes priviledges unto their proper subjects , and states the immediate right unto each sort of priviledges upon its proper basis. if we say that government of a family does not belong to persons meerly because they are members of the family ; do we thereby set up a sort of meer members thereof , that have no family-benefit , but onely a titulary relation to it , & c ? indeed such a saying would impor● , that in a family there are some that are governours , and some that are not governours of it ; as also that one may be a member of a family , and yet have no hand in the government thereof . so the distinction in hand implies , that in the church some are in full communion , and some are not ; and that one may be in memberly relation , and yet not be in full communion : and surely the truth of this cannot be doubted of . if children in minority be members ( as our brethren acknowledge them to be ) then there are some members that are not in ( nor yet fit for ) full communion . and for the adult , when a man is by admonition debarred from the lords table , and yet not excommunicated ; does he not continue a member ( yea , a personal member in our brethrens account ) and yet is not in full communion ? this demonstrates that membership and full communion are distinct and separable things . it is clear enough , that our non excommunicable children do continue members of the church ; yet many of them are not in full communi●● 〈◊〉 will our brethren say that they are fit for it . so then , neither the logical distinction between what belongs to persons simply as members ( or by their meer membership ) and what belongs to them as further endued with such and such special qualifications ; nor yet the assertion flowing from it , viz. [ that some may be and continue members , and yet not be in full communion ] can ju●tly be objected against . the sum is ; the persons in question have by virtue of their memberly relation ( or meerly by their membership ) a proper right unto the priviledges that are desired for them ; yet withall , they have some qualifications , and some communion ( and so are not meer members in contradistinction hereunto ) though they have not yet such full qualifications as to come into full communion . but thus much being s●id concerning that distinction which the synod useth , and the meaning of it : proceed we to the assertion here laid down by our brethren , and their proof thereof . their assertion is , that it is not meer membership , but qualified membership that gives right to baptism . remember here , t●at our ●●●pute properly is of membership de jure , or regular membership , ( i. e. wherein the rule appoints or allows one to be , or to be continued a member of the visible church ) not of membership de facto onely . now membership de jure , or regular membership , implies some qualification , as ▪ viz. that a person being a church-member is not under such gross , and incorrigible ignorance , heresie , scandal or apostacy , as renders him an immediate subject of excommunication ; hence meer membership is not so to be opposed to qualified membership , as if it were destitute of all qualifications . those whom the lord doth , and whom the church , acting regularly , may own , and continue as members , they are so farre qualified as that the rule hath accepted them into covenant , and doth not appoint us to put them out . now then , understanding meer membership f●r [ meerly this , that a man is regularly a member ] and qualified membership for [ superadded qualifications , over and above what is essentially requisite to regular membership ] the 〈◊〉 said ass●rtion is thus much ; it is not sufficient to give a person right to baptism , that he be regularly a member of the visible church , but he must have some further qualification then so , or else he hath not right thereunto . this assertion ( or to say , in this sense ) that it is not meer membership , but qualified membership that gives right to baptism , is indeed an antisynodalian assertion , and we doubt not to affirm it is antiscriptural . . it is antisynodalian , or directly opposite to the d●ctrine of the synod , and we will readily grant that if this could be proved , it cuts asunder the ●inews of the synods strongest arguments ; for this is that which the synod stand and build upon , that it is covenant-interest , or federal holiness , or visible church-membership ( which are but several expressions of the same thing ) that properly gives right to baptism , or , that baptism belongs to a church-member as su●h , and so to all church-members . and hence by the way , let it be minded that the synod in their fifth proposition have comprized both the right to baptism , and the manner of administration : the distinstion between which two , was often-over mentioned in the synod ; though they put both together in the proposition for better concurrence sake , and that they might at once familiarly set down what is to be attended in such a case . the [ right ] stands upon [ membership ] whereby the parent , and so the childe is regularly within the visible church ; so as no more qualification in the parent is simply necessary to give the childe right to baptism , but what is essentially requisite unto regular membership . as for other and further qualifications pointed to in the proposition ( as , giving account of their assent to the doctrine of faith , solemn owning of the covenant , &c. ) they properly belong to the manner of administration . yet these are not therefore needless things , nor may they be disregarded , or boldly slighted and refused by any ( because membership alone gives right ) for god hath made it one commandment of four , to provide for the manner of his worship , requiring that all his holy ordinances be attended in a solemn , humble , reverent and profitable manner : and it cannot be denyed to be meet and needful , that persons should both know and own the covenant-state they are in , and the state of subjection to christs government , which the covenant placeth them in , especially when they partake of such a fruit of the covenant as baptism for their children is : that they should do covenant-duties , when they come for covenant priviledges ; that they should both seek and attend the lords holy ordinance ( though it be their right never so much ) in humility and fear : and it being one branch of the covenant , that they give up their children to the lord , and do promise to take care for their christian education , it must needs be suitable that they be minded of it when they present them to baptism , and the more explicitely they do so promise , it is the better . hence all reformed churches do in their directories , and practices , require professions , and promises of parents , or those that present the childe to baptism , and appoint a solemn manner of administration , and stand upon it as a needful duty . though they unanimously own and grant , that the childe hath a full and clear right to baptism by its being born within the visible church . see english leiturgie of the administration of baptism . directory , pag. . late petition for peace , pag. , &c. zepperi polit. ecces . pag . & pag. — . alasco , pag. — . ratio discipl . bohem. pag . hence also no man will doubt but that it is a comfortable and desireable thing , that the parent do address himself in the most solemn , serious , and spiritual manner to draw nig● to god upon such an occasion as the baptizing of a childe , by humbling himself before god for all neglects and breaches of his covenant , by taking hold of the incouraging promises of grace in christ , in reference unto the children of the covenant ; and by pouring out earnest prayer to god for his childe , and for an heart to do the duty of a christian parent toward his childe , as doth become him , &c. and such things as these , parents may and ought to be stirred up unto in the ministry of the word , as their duty . but still we must distinguish between what belongs to the manner of administration , or to the better and more comfortable attendance thereof , and between what is essentially requisite to give right and title to the ordinance before the church . this latter , meer membership ( or membership alone ) doth . a state of membership in the visible church , is that unto which the right of baptism is annexed (k) , as not onely the synod , but the scripture teacheth . and so , . the assertion before-mentioned ( viz. that it is not meer membership , but qualified membership that gives right to baptism : in the sense above given ) is also antiscriptural ; . because it directly overthroweth infant-baptism , which the scripture establisheth : for what have infants more then membership ( or federal holiness , or covenant-interest ) to give them right to baptism ? i. e. what have they more then this , that they are regularly ( by the rules of gods word , and his institution therein ) within the visible church ? if this will not suffice , but there must be some other qualifications besides , and superadded unto this , what shall become of them ? for our parts , we know no stronger argument for infants-baptism then that ; church members , or foederati , are to be baptized : the infants of the faithful are church-members , or foederati : ergo. but if the foresaid assertion hold , this argument fails , and falls short : for now church-membership , or to be in covenant , or federal holiness , will not serve the turn , but there must be more then this to give right to baptism . how the sinews of the strongest arguments of the synod for enlargement of baptism will fare , we know not ; but sure we are , that this cuts in sunder the sinews of the strongest arguments for infant-baptism , which must fall if this stand . but fall it never will ( through grace ) while the lords appointment in the covenant of abraham stands , viz. to have the initiating seal run parallel with the covenant , gen. . or christs commission , matth. . . viz. to baptize all disciples , or all members of the visible church under the new testament . let this assertion therefore fall , which makes the extent of the initiatory seal shorter then the covenant , and denies baptism to run parallel with church-membership under the gospel . hence , . it contradicts that which the harmony of scripture , and all orthodox divines acknowledge for a principle , viz. that the whole visible church ( i. e. now under the new testament ) ought to be baptized ; or that all church members are subjects of baptism : for , if not meer membership ( or membership alone ) but qualified membership gives right to baptism ; then not all members , but some onely , viz. those that be so and so qualified , are to be baptized . if baptism do not belong to meer membership , or to a member as such , then not to all members : as à quatenus ad omne , so à non quatenus ad non omne valet consequentiae . this denies not onely in the fifth , but the first proposition of the late synod ( which yet the antisynodalia , pag. . seem to consent unto . ) but let the arguments that are given from scripture to confirm that first proposition , be duely weighed , and they will be found to be of greater weight then to be shaken by this assertion . now for the proof of this assertion ; viz. because john 's baptism , which was christian baptism , might not be applied to some who were standing members of the visible church , because they were not qualified with repentance , luke . . & . . therefore christian baptism is not to be applied unto such as stand members in the visible church , if they be not qualified with fruits of repentance . answ. let this be answered with reference to infant-baptism , which lies upon our brethren to do , as well as on us , seeing they above declared antipoedobaptism to be a sinful opinion , and do profess to hold and maintain the baptizing of infants : though indeed the reader could not gather so much from these words [ christian baptism is not to be applied unto such 〈◊〉 stand members in the visible church , if they be not qualified with fruits of repentance . ] this seems directly to gainsay infant-baptism ; for infants do indeed stand members of the visible church , but how do they or can they shew that they are qualified with fruits of repentance ? for it seems that neither is repentance it self sufficient without [ fruits ] of repentance . but we are to suppose our brethren do not intend to oppose infant-baptism , and therefore that their meaning is not to require these fruits of repentance ( or qualifications superadded to membership ) of the children or person● to be baptized , but of their parents ; though it be not so expressed . but , let this argument from iohn's requiring of qualifications over and above membership , be answered , with reference to infant-baptism , and that will answer it as to the case in hand . we remember in debates between the elders and an antipoed●baptist many years since , this very argument was urged by him , and the same answer that was given then , we shall give here ; viz. . that meerly to be a member of the old-testament iewish church , or simply to be in covenant ( or confederate ) under the old-testament manner of administration , sufficeth not to baptism : but to be in the church and covenant of the new-testament , to be a member of a gospel church , stated and setled under the gospel manner of administration , this is that which right to baptism stands upon , and here membership alone sufficeth thereunto . when we say , that members of the visible church , confederates &c. are to be baptized , we must needs be understood to speak of the visible church ( or of covenant-interest ) under the new testament , and gospel-administration , which is founded upon christ already come . and it were most absurd and irrational to understand us otherwise ; we having now no other church or covenant to speak of , but that . old testament-church-membership gave right to circumcision ; new-testament church-membership gives right to baptism . but at the transition from old to new , or at the first setting up of the gospel-administration ( o● kingdome of heaven , as 't is called ) and of baptism , the entring seal thereof in iohn baptists's and christ's time , well might more be required then bare membership in the iewish church ( which was then also under great corruption , and degeneracy ) hence all the members of the church of the iews were not baptized , but onely those that in some degree embraced the new and reformed administration : in order to which , a special repentance was then necessary , mat. . . but to inferre from hence , a necessity of qualifications superadded unto membership in stated christian or gospel-churches ▪ in order to baptism-right , will not hold ; there is a wide difference between the case of ecclesia christiana constituenda , and constituta . in those first beginnings of the gospel , even pious persons , and men fearing god , such as the eunuch , and cornelius , must have further instruction , and preparation , before they could be baptized : may a man thence inferre , that now in the christian church constituted , a christian or church-member that feareth god , is not baptizable without further qualifications ? . much of what was required by iohn baptist of the members of the iewish church before he baptized them , may be referred to the manner of administration , and was upon that account attended in a case so circumstanced , as that was ; for that by reason of their church-state ( though so degenerate as they were ) they were in a farre other and neerer capacity then non-members ; and that thereby they had a right to the ministrations of iohn and christ among them , is plain from many scriptures , luk. . . iohn . . mat. . . & . , . rom. . . but those that were then to be baptized ( at that first institution of baptism , and beginning of the gospel-administration ) being adult persons , and they defiled with scandal , and degeneracy , yea having much lost the truth of doctrine in many poinst ▪ hence they could not be brought to entertain that beginning of the gospel ( as 't is called , mark . , . ) and baptism the sign and seal thereof , without previous convictions , and penitential preparations by the powerful ministry of the baptist. but it doth not appear that more was pre-required of them , then what was necessary to an humble submitting to the ordinance , and to that new and reforming administration then on foot , which was betokened and sealed thereby . and he that shall consider the multitudes that were baptized by iohn . mat. . , . luk. . , . in the short time of his ministry , and in those glimmerings of gospel-light that they then had , together with the great weakness , and rawness of some that he baptized , iohn . , . act. . — . will not think that the persons baptized by iohn did excell those whom the synod describeth in their fifth proposition , of which our brethren were so sensible in their anti-synodalia , pag. . that there they chose rather to wave iohns practice , and to seek for stricter presidents , though here they plead , ( and that rightly and truely ) that iohn's baptism was christian baptism , and holds forth a rule unto us . as for that confession of sins in mat. . . when our children do in their assens to the doctrine of faith , and consent to the covenant , acknowledge their sin , and misery by nature , their perishing condition without christ , &c. are willing to submit to instruction , and government , for the reformation of their sins ( as those that were baptized by iohn shewed their penitential frame by that , viz. a submission to his instructions and counsels , luk. . — . ) they cannot be denyed to have somewhat of that confession of sin . so chemnit . on the place , they acknowledged themselves to be sinners , and both in words , and by their action in desiring to be baptized , they professed their fear of the wrath of god , and desire to escape it . but if any do stand guilty of open scandals , we know not why they should not make particular confession of their sin therein , when they come to present themselves before god , and desire baptism for their children , if they have not done it before ( so saith the same chemnitius in the same place of them ; moreover , such as stood guilty of more grievous falls , did also confess them in particular . ) to be sure , they should by the discipline of the church be brought to that , whether they had children to be baptized or no , but then may be a fitting season for it . thus there may be cause and call for a special repentance in special cases ( when persons have so carried it , as to shake their standing in the visible church ) and although the rule owns the childe to be a member of the church , and so a subject of baptism , while it allows the parent to be a member not cut off ; yet it is a covenant-duty of the parent to confess his sin in such a case : and so shall baptism be administred with greater honour to god , and comfort to all that are concerned . but otherwise , while the parent that was born in the church , regularly continues in it , without scandal , he is ecclesiastically accounted to have the being of repentance , and so to have the thing which iohn required of them , though not the same modus of manifestation , and discovery thereof . now follows the fifth reason of our brethrens dissent , which is this ; that which will not make a man capable of receiving baptism himself , in case he were unbaptized , doth not make him capable of transmitting right of baptism unto his childe : but all that the synod hath said will not give a man right to baptism himself in case he were unbaptized ; therefore all that the synod hath said is not enough to make a man capable of transmitting right of baptism unto his childe . whereunto is added somewhat out of bucer , parker and mr. cotton , as concurring with the judgement of our brethren . ans. taking [ capable of receiving baptism himself , or right to baptism himself ] for a state of baptism-right , or capacity , we may grant the major , but the minor in manifestly to be denied . but taking it for a frame of actual fitness to receive baptism , we cannot say that we may grant the minor , but surely the major will not hold . it is true , that that which doth not put a man into a state of right to baptism for himself in case he were unbaptized ( i. e. into a state of church-membership ) will not enable him to give baptism-right to his childe . if the parent be not a member , or not in a state of covenant interest , none of us plead for the childes baptism . and if he be a 〈◊〉 surely he is in the state of a subject of baptism , or in a state of right to it ( as all the members of the visible church are ) whatever may de facto hinder it . but it is possible for an adult person , being in the state of a member , and so of right to baptism , to have something fall in which may hinder the actual application of baptism to himself ( in case he were unbaptized ) or his actual fitness for it : and yet the same thing may not hinder a person already baptized , and standing in a covenant-state , from conveying baptism-right to his childe . the reason is , because the right of the childe depends upon the state of the parent ( that he be in a state of membership : for if so , then divine institution carrieth or transmitteth membership , and so baptism-right to the childe ) but the parents regular partaking of this or that ordinance for himself , depends much upon his own actual fitness for it . as suppose an unbaptized adult person admitted into the church , who before he is baptized falls into some great offence ( though such a case could hardly fall out , if baptism were administred according to the rule , and apostolical practice , i. e. immediately upon first admission , matth. . . acts . . much more is it an harsh and strange supposition for a parent that ought to have been , and was baptized in his infancy , to be supposed to be yet unbaptized ▪ but allowing the supposition , that a person 〈◊〉 in adult age falls into offence before he is baptized ) he may be called to give satisfaction for it , and to shew himself in a more serious and penitent frame before himself receive baptism ; but suppose he die before he do that , and leave children behinde him , shall not they be baptized ? in like manner , if a person already baptized , yea or already in full communion , should fall into offence , you would say that would put a stop to his own baptism , in case ( upon an impossible supposition ) he were yet unbaptized ; but what rule or reason is there for it , to make a particular offence in the parent , to cut o● the childes right to baptism , when as the parent is ( notwithstanding that offence ) still a member , and within the church , and doth not shew any such incorrigibleness , as that 〈◊〉 is by rule to be put out ? when as the offence doth not cut off the parents membership , is there any reason it should cut off the membership of the childe ? and if it cut not of the childes membership , it doth not cut off his right to baptism ▪ whatever may be said for requiring the parent to confess his sin before his childes baptism , in reference to the more expedient and comfortable manner of administration ( therein we oppose not ) yet where doth the scripture allows us to disannull the childes right to baptism upon a particular offence in the parent , especially when it is not such as doth touch upon the essentials of christianity , and notwithstanding which , the parent is regularly and orderly continued a member of the church ? it remains therefore that there may be obstructions to a parents receiving baptism for himself , in case he were unbaptized , which do not incapacitate a baptized parent to transmit ( if we may attribute transmitting to a parent , which is properly the act of gods institution and covenant ) right of baptism unto his childe . but for the minor or assumption of the argument in hand , it will not hold in either of the senses of the proposition above given . for , . we will readily grant , that if the parent be not in a state of baptism-right himself , i. e. in a state of membership , he cannot convey baptism-right to his childe ; but how manifest is it , that that which the synod hath said in their fifth proposition , doth render the persons there described in a state of right to baptism for themselves , in case they were unbaptized , viz. in a state of membership in the visible church ; for the proposition speaks of church-members , such as were admitted members in minority , and do orderly and regularly so continue : and that a state of membership is a state of baptism-right , or that all church-members are in the state of subjects of baptism , is an evident truth that cannot be denied by any that grant the synods first proposition ; for which there is sun-light in scripture , and never was orthodox divine heard of that questioned it . hence according to that ruled case here mentioned , the parents in question having themselves a title to baptism , may intitle others ; they have not onely a title to it , but regular and actual possession of it , for they are baptized , and in case they were yet unbaptized , they would , being church-members , have a title of right unto it ( they would stand possessed of an interest in a title to it , as mr. hooker in the place here alledged speaks ) whatever might de facto hinder their enjoyment of it . and as à non habente potestatem , acts are invalid ; so ab habente potestatem they are valid and good : but god hath full power to give forth what grants he pleaseth , and he hath in the order of his covenant in the visible church , granted a membership , and so baptism-right unto children born of parents that are members , and so the parent that stands member of the church , hath as an instrument under god , and from his grant , power to 〈◊〉 such a right unto his childe . children are within the covenant , because they come from parents within the covenant , in which they were included , and so received also by god , saith mr. hooker in the place that is here cited . survey , part . . pag. . . it is not to be yielded , that the parents described by the synod in their fifth proposition , would not have right to baptism themselv●s in case they were unbaptized , though you take [ right to baptism ] for actual and immediate fitness for the same in fero ecclesia . surely he will have an hard talk , who shall undertake out of scripture , or orthodox divines , to shew , that adult persons understanding and believing the doctrine of faith , and publickly professing the same , not scandalous in life , and solemnly taking h●ld of the covenant , wherein they give up themselves and theirs to the lord in his church , and subject themselves to christs government therein ; that these ( we say ) may be denied or debarred from church-membership or baptism upon their desire thereof . it is not easie to believe , that the multitudes baptized by iohn baptist and by christ ( i. e. by his disciples at his order ) in the time of their ministry ; or the many thousands of the iews that were counted believers , and baptized after christs ascension ( too much addicted unto judaism , acts . . & . . ) or the numbers baptized by philip in samaria , and by the apostles in other places , upon a short time of instruction , and when they were moved and taken 〈…〉 , and of whom many proved corrupt and degenerate afterward ( as the epistles to the galatians , corinthians , and other places sh●w ) that they did ( we say ) ( at least many of them ) excell the persons described in the synods fifth proposition , taking all things together : or that they had more to render them visible believers upon a just account then those have . but it is a strange reason that is here rendred by our brethren , why that which is set down by the synod would not render a person a subject of baptism , viz. because [ a man may be an unbelie●er , and yet c●me up to all that the synod hath said in their fifth proposition ] we suppose 〈◊〉 magus , a●●ni● and sapphira , and many others , not onely might be , but were unbelievers , and yet were regularly baptized . we marvel what outward signs and professions of faith which the church may proceed upon , can be given , but a man [ may ●e ] an unbeliever , and yet come up unto them ? if it be said , that a man may come up to all that the synod hath said , and yet ●e ecclesiastically judged a visible unbeliever , shew us any ground for such a judgement . touching the opinion of bucer & parker , here cited out of park . de polit. ●cel . lib. . p. , . . in the first passage the word [ apparent . ] is here added , the words in parker are onely [ signes of regeneration ] and the other passage in pag. . runs thus ; a confession of faith , though publick and solemn , may not be received in churches , quando nulla necessaria fidei signs apparent , when as no necessary signs of faith do appear : where by necessary signs of faith , are not meane such signs as have a necessary connexion with faith , or do necessarily ( i. e. infallibly , and certainly ) argue that there is ▪ truth of saving faith in the heart ; such signs men cannot see or judge of , but when there is such an appearance , as that if that be in reality which doth appear to be ( on which seems to be in outward appearance ) then there is true faith ; this is that appearance of necessary signes of faith which he means ; hence within seven lines of the place cited , the same thing is thus expressed ; qua●diu nullo probabili argumento , &c. when as we are by no probable argument given to believe that it is in the heart . . the thing there specially blamed by bucer and parker , is , when a bare verbal profession is accepted , though accompanied with a scandalous life ; and when there is not regard had to the conversation , as well as to the oral confession , as the discourse in the place cited at large shews . . but that which we would chiefly insist on for answer , is , that bucer and parker do there plainly speak of such a confirmation ( or owning men as confirmed members ) as doth import their admission to the lords table , or into full communion ( as we phrase it ) and hence do blame the prelatical way for so much slightness therein : so mr. cotton cites this place of bucer (a) . and so parker a little before this his citation of bucer complains , that although by the english order ( if i mistake not , saith he ) he that is confirmed , is capable of the lords supper ; yet notwithstanding ▪ such are confirmed , if they can but say the catec●ism , who cannot examine themselues , nor rightly prepare themselues for the table of the lord. now it is well known , that in our admissions unto full communion , we are not behind in any thing that bucer and parker do require , but do expect positive comfortable signes of regeneration already wrought , and some experienced fruits thereof ; whereby persons may be in some measure fit for that special and comfortable exercise of grace that is required in preparation for , and participation of the lords table . but suppose that persons born in the church , and baptized , be not yet come up to this , is there any word to be found in bucer or parker , or in any judicious orthodox divine , that they lose their membership , and are put out of the church meerly because they are not come up to this , when as no censurable wickedness is found in them ? and while the parent stands in the church , his infant-childe is in the church also , and therefore baptizable . yet withal we say , with the consent of judicious divines , that while persons have a regular standing in the church , they are in ecclesiastical account to be looked upon as having the being of regeneration , or as fidele● , vocati , and so regenerati , i. e. by reason of their federal holiness , though not by part●cular , present , evident signs of a work of grace already wrought in them : in this case we take their covenant-estate , christian education , hopeful carriage , general profession , &c. for signs of regeneration in this sense , i. e. such as shew that there may be grace , there is nothing inconsistent with grace , and none knows but ● seed of grace ( which in the first infusion , and beginnings of it , is marvellous secret and small ) may lye at bottom : and hence the church is to carry toward them as heires of grace . but it is a further thing for grace to appear above-ground in such exercise and sensible signs , evidences and experiences , as may fit them for comfortable communion w●th christ in the supper . but fourthly , if the judgement of bucer and parker may be taken in this controversie , it will 〈…〉 : for , notwithstanding all that is here , or can be cited of theirs , it is evident enough that famous martin bucer , and renowned parker , ( as the preface styleth them , and that deservedly ) do fully concurre with the synod in extending baptism to such as the synod describes , or to more then so . vid. bucer de regno christi , lib. . cap. . pag. . and in his commentary upon iohn , in an excellent discourse concerning infant baptism , among many other useful passages , he hath these following . sunt quidem sa●e inter pueros reprobi , &c. there are indeed often among children some that be reprobates , but while that does not appear to us , we ought nevertheless to reckon them among the people of god ; and we shall time enough cast them out , when by their evil fruits they shall openly shew us what they are : bucer in joh. fol. . and in another place , quantum equidem assequi possum , &c. as far as i can gather ( saith he ) the anabaptist's onely reason why they dislike infant baptism , is , because they fancy to themselves that the church would be more pure , if we baptized none but the adult , and such as hold forth evidences of the spirit : and so they think but a few would have place in churches . but by this means doubtless it would come to pass , that many of christs sheep would be neglected as goats : neither would all parents be so careful as they think , in educating their children unto piety . and yet this humane thought ( which savours of too much esteem of our own works ) doth so possess them , that they bring all to this , and turn off all that can be said , and hereby they run themselves into very great errours . i called it an humane thought , for no scripture doth command such a curious circumspection , lest any goats should be received into the church . the apostles often baptized persons with whom they had scarce had an hours speech concerning christ ; because , according to the parable of the gospel , they would bring in all they met with to the marriage ( mat. . . ) for by baptism they only took them into the school of piety , and trained-hand of christians ; and they were wont then to cast them out again , when it was evidently enough perceived that to labour in teaching them was in vain . ibid. fol. . as for parker , his speaking mainly against the admitting or tolerating of [ manifestarii peccatores ] the notoriously wicked , and pleading to have them debarred from the lords table , or cast out by the use of discipline (a) : his frequent approbation of the principles of the reformed churches (b) ; and in special his approving of their admitting members ( not before of their body ) upon such like qualifications as are contained in the synods fifth proposition (c) . also his earnest and peremptory rejecting the opinions and principles of the anabaptists and separatists , and declaring himself and the non-conformists , whose cause he acted , to be farre from them (d) . these and such like do clearly shew that worthy man to be no opponent of such an extent of baptism as is contained in the conclusions of the synod . but here our brethren will needs take notice , that the judgment of that worthy and for ever famous mr. cotton was as theirs is , because he hath these words , ( in holiness of church-members , pag. ) i conceive ( under favour ) more positive fruits of regeneration are required in the church-members of the new testament then of the old. ans. the reader will take notice of what hath been before said , and cited to shew mr. cottons judgement in the points controverted between our brethren and the synod , and will easily thereby judge whether mr. cottons judgement was as theirs is : but it is strange they should make such a collection from what is here set down . mr. cotton might say those words that are here expressed , and yet his judgement be farre enough from being as theirs is in any of the points that are controverted : for we shall not gainsay this conception of mr. cottons [ that more positive fruits of regeneration are required in the church members of the new testament , then of the old ] but concur with it in two respects , or for two causes : . because the light now is greater and clearer then it was then , and where more is given , more is required , luke . . . because the discipline appointed under the old testament was mostly ceremonial ( ames medul . lib. . c. . thes. . ) and whether excommunication for moral evils , was then used , at least out of the national church , is by some doubted : as also whether persons were debarred from the holy things simply for moral evils , if they were ceremonially clean ; as mr. cotton in the place here alledged saith , it is true , that it is a question whether sins very scandalous did keep men ceremonially clean from the temple and sacrifices : but under the new testament we have a plain and undoubted rule , for the censure of excommunication for moral evils persisted in : hence persons might haply run further into moral evils ( and so further off from the fruits of regeneration ) then , and yet not be put out of the church ( yea haply not be debarred from the holy things ) then they can do now . but what is all this to the matter in hand ? for still it is not secret irregeneration , nor the bare want of such and such positive fruits of regeneration , without positive and palpable ●ruits of irregeneration , that will ( according to any rule god hath given us ) put any man out of the church , when he is once in . nay , mr. cotton in the very place here cited , expresly saith , that irregeneration alone will not keep a man out : his words are these [ neither amongst us doth irregeneration alone keep any from church-fellowship with us : not irregeneration alone ( i say ) unles it be accompanied with such fruits as are openly scandalous , and do convincingly manifest irregeneration . ] moreover , still the parallel between the church of the old and of the new testament ; stands and holds in this , that when a person is once by gods appointment taken into the visible church ( whether in adult age or in infancy , it comes all to one for that ) he continues in it , and doth not lose his membership , till by some rule or appointment of god in his word he be cut off or cast out . what the particular rules and wayes of cutting off were in the old testament , we need not here dispute , but to be sure the plain rule in the new testament for the cutting off of particular persons , is by the censure of excommunication for moral evils . but while we grant that in some respects more positive fruits in regard of degree might be required in the old testament , let none so understand it , as if regeneration was not required as all unto the constitution and continuation of the visible church in the old testament , but that a meer carnal succession was then allowed of without regard to regeneration . for they sto●d by faith , and were br●ken off by vnbelief as well as we , rom. . circumcision was a seal of the righte●usness of faith , as well as baptism . faith and repentance do not now more constitute the covenant of god , then it did in the time of abraham , who was the father of the faithful , saith dr. ames (b) . yea , our brethren do in their antisynodalia , pag. . expresly say , that the covenant made with abraham , and the circumcision of his seed , was appointed upon the same terms that baptism was , i. e. that he should walk with god by faith and obedience . and it is observeable , that no where is regeneration , and the fruits thereof , required of gods covenant people in stricter and fuller terms then in the old testament , gen. . . deut. . . & . , . kings . . psal. . , . isa. . , . and yet the lord , who is the best interpreter of his own rules , continued them in the church , and accounted them among the number of his holy people , till palpall● , and incorrigible fruits of irregeneration were found with them : and so he doth now . in the sixth place : the application ( saith the preface ) of the seal of baptism unto those who are not true believers ( we mean visibly , for de occultis non judicat ecclesia ) is a profanation thereof , and as dreadful a sin as if a man should administer the lords supper unto unworthy receivers — we marvel that any should think that the blood of christ is not as mu●h profaned and vilified by undue administration of baptism , as by undue administration of the lords supper . ans it will be hard for the redder to gather out of all that is here said , a reason of dissent from the synod : for we readily grant and say , that baptism is not to be applied to any but visible believers ( taking visible believers ▪ as a term equivalent to [ federally holy ] as the term believer or faithful is sometimes in scripture so taken , isa● . . . cor. . . and often in authors ) but that the persons in question , both parents and children , are visible believers , is also by the synod asserted and proved ; and here is nothing said to disprove it . but when as our brethren here say , that the application of the seal of baptism unto those who are not visibly true believers , is a profanation thereof ( in which , being rightly explained , we gainsay them not ) and yet in their 〈◊〉 , pag. . do hold forth , that infants neither have nor can have faith ; it will lye upon them to shew how they apply the seal of baptism to infants without a profanation thereof . it is pity that so many passages are dropt here and there , that do ( though we hope not in their intention ) clas● with the baptizing of i●fants . here is also exprest a marvel , that any should think , &c. but we may answer with a m●rvel that any should speak as if any of us did think that the blood of christ is not profaned by undue administration of baptism , as well as by undue administration of the lords supper : whether as much or no in point of degree , we will not trouble our selves to dispute ; though we suppose the degree of sinful , pollution or profanation of the lords name in any ordinance , will be intended by the degree of special communion that we have with christ in that ordinance , and by the danger that such pollution infers to the whole church , as well as to the particular partaker , which will hardly be denied to be more in the lords supper then in baptism . but whether the profanation be as great or no , to be sure it is very great ▪ and so great as that every pious conscientious person should fear to have any hand in the undue administration of baptism . but where is there any thing to shew that the administration of baptism , pointed to by the synod , is undue ? or that it is an undue administration of b●ptism to extend it further then the lords supper ? or to administer baptism to some unto whom we do not administer the lords supper ? if the rule and institution concerning these two sacraments do extend the one further then the other , as it plainly doth , when it appoints baptism to all disciples , or to run parallel with federal holiness , mat. . . but the lords supper onely to self-examining disciples , cor. . . then the one may be extended further then the other , and yet the administration of the one no more undue , or irregular , and polluting then the administration of the other . surely he that holds , that baptism may , and the lords supper may not be administred unto infants ( as we suppose our brethren do ) he grants that baptism may be extended further then the lords supper , without any such sacrilegio●● impiety , dreadful prof●rtation or prostitution of the blood of christ , as is here ( harshly enough ) exprest . neither did judicious calvin ( part of whose zealous expression against the promiscuous administration of the lords supper , is here cited in the preface ) ever imagine or conceive that it was any such profanation to extend baptism further then the lords supper , yea and further then the synod doth , when as he set down that answer in his catec●ism that is above alledged , and practised accordingly . it is well known the synod doth not ple●d for that largeness in either of the sacraments that calvin allowed : but to extend the one further then the other , was never accounted sacrilegious impiety in orthodox divinity . it is here added ; that austin pleads for strictness in the administration of baptism , and tertullian be●ore him . but did either of them ple●d for greater strictness then the synod doth ? unless where tertullian erroneously and weakly pleads for the delaying of baptism , which is noted (c) for one of his navi . certainly men will say when they look upon what is published by the synod , and their wary qualifying of the fifth proposition ( about which the controversy is ) that they were for much strictness in the administration of baptism , and many will think us too strict . we doubt not but we may safely say , that no man can shew any thing out of austin that will speak him to be against the baptizing of such as the synod pleadeth for : yea , he requireth not more of adult converts from heathenism , for their own baptism , then is in the parents who are described by the synod . that book of his de fide & operibus , is against the baptizing of notorious scandalous livers , whom he would not have baptized ( though seemingly turned from heathenism ) till they seriously promised reformation . but that austin ( in stead of being for more strictness ) holdeth for a larger extent of baptism then the synod doth , might easily be evinced (d) . how strange is it to see their authority still alledged against us , who are not onely fully with us in this matter , but go further then we ! the seventh reason of our brethrens dissent , is this ; it hath in it a natural tendency to the ●ardning of unregenerate creatures , in their sinful natural condition , when life is not onely promised , but sealed to them by the precious blood of iesus christ. baptism is a seal of the whole co●enant of grace , (e) as well as the lords supper and therefore those that are not interested in this covenant by faith , ought not to have the seal thereof applyed to them . ans. . the lords truth and grace , however it may be abused by the corruption of mans perverse and ●inful nature , hath not in it self any natural tendency to harden any , but the contrary . and how can the doctrine in hand have any such natural tendency ? when as men are told over and over , that onely outward advantages and dispensations are sealed to them in baptism more absolutely ( rom. . , . ● . . ) but the saving benefits of the covenant ( or life eternal ) conditionally ( see mr. shepards late printed letter , pag. — . ) so that if they fail of the condition ( viz. eff●ctual and unfeigned faith ) they miss of salvation , notwithstanding their baptism , and external covenant-estate : and hence , that there is no certa●n , but onely a probable connexion between federal holyness ( as applied to particular persons ) and salvation ; that thousands are in the vi●●ble church that shall never see heaven ; that outward priviledges are not to be rested in , but improved●s ●s helps and encouragements to the obtaining of internal and special grace : that the chur●h is to accept of probable signes , but no man for 〈◊〉 is to rest without certain s●gns of grace : hence the indefinite promise , and other general indefinite tokens of a good estate , 〈◊〉 such as decypher that sort of persons that are gracious , and many of whom are so ▪ though many are not , ( ●s ch●ldren of the covenant , professors of the faith &c. ) these are grounds for the church to proceed upon in the dispensation of outward 〈◊〉 , especi●lly that of baptism , that is annexed to the first being of grace ; but they are not grounds for any to rest o● acquie●ce in , as to the salvation of their own soules . in sum , while we keep a due distinction between the outw●rd and inward dispensation of the covenant , and between the respective cond●ti●ns and gr●unds of each , there is no tendency unto hardning therein : but inde●d ▪ 〈…〉 , and do tye visible church-interest unto such conditions and qualifications , as are reputed enough to salvation , this may tend to harden men , and to make them conceit , that if once they be got into the church , they are sure of heaven , when 〈◊〉 it may be they are far from it . . the scriptures give us a contrary assertion to this of our brethren here ; for they tell us , that to deny the children of the church , to have any part in the lord , hath a strong tendency in it , to make them cease from fearing the lord , or to harden their hearts from his fear , iosh. . , , . and that on the other hand , the incouragements and awful obligations of covenant-interest do greatly tend to soft●● and break the heart , and to draw it home unto god. hence the lord often begins with this , that he is their god ( viz. in outward covenant ) and they his people , when he would most powerfully win and draw them to faith and obedience , psal. . , . levit. . , . deut. . , . hosea . . act. . , . and the experiences of many can through grace witness unto this , of what use the consideration of the lords preventing grace in his sealed covenant , and their engagement to him thereby hath been in the day of their turning unto god , so ier. . . & . . gal. . . . there is a natural tendency in mans corrupt heart ( not in this , or any other truth or ordinance of god ) that leads him to turn grace into wantonness , and to abuse outward priviledges and ordinances , unto a self-hardning security and carnal confidence , ier. . . mat. . . rom. . . phil. . , , , . but is this any argument against the lord's or the churches giving men a portion in his temple and ordinances , because they are prone so to abuse them ? confidence in outward visible qualifications for full communion , is but a vain and carnal thing ; yet men are prone enough to it , and had need by the ministry be taken off from it . but shall we therefore deny or scruple their admission thereunto ? . if one should bring such an argument as this against the baptizing of infants , viz. that it will harden them , and bolster them up in their sinful natural condition ; we suppose it would be counted a poor argument , and of no validity ; and yet it holds as well against the baptizing of any infants , as of these in question . if it be said , that the baptizing of these in question hardens the parent ? ans. not at all ( in the way we go ) any more with reference to his childes baptism , then in reference to his own baptism which he received in infancy . for it doth not necessarily affirm that he hath any more then federal holiness , and that he had , when he was an infant , on that ground was he baptized then , and on the same ground is his childe baptized now . if he have any more , he may have the more comfort in it ; but simply to have his childe baptized , on the grounds we go upon , affirms no more but this , because we ground all upon federal holiness , or membership in the visible church . it is true , that baptism is a seal of the whole covenant of grace , as well as the lords supper : but it is as true , . that it is a seal of the covenant of grace , as dispensed in the visible church , or it is a seal of the covenant of grace , as clothed with the external dispensation or administration thereof , and so it doth nextly and immediately seal the external dispensation , or the promises and priviledges that belong thereto ( which are a part of the whole covenant of grace ) and then it seals the inward and saving benefits of the covenant as included in that dispensation , and upon the conditions therein propounded . baptism seals the whole covenant , and whole dispensation thereof , i. e. . the dispensation of it outwardly , to all that have an external standing in the church . . the dispensation and communication of it inwardly , effectually and savingly to all that truely do believe . . that baptism is a seal of entrance into the covenant thus considered . it seals the whole covenant , but by way of initiation ; so dr. ames in the place that is here quoted , medul . lib. . cap. . thes. , . baptism is the sacrament of initiation , or regeneration , for although it do at once seal the whole covenant of grace to the faithful , yet by a singular appropriation it represents and confirms our very ingrafting into christ , rom. . , . cor. . . and thesis . those benefits are sealed by way of initiation , in baptism : and from thence the judicious doctor makes that inference that suits and clears the matter in hand , thes. . hence baptism ought to be administred to all those , unto whom the covenant of grace belongs , because it is the first seal of the covenant now first entred into . baptism is the seal of entrance into covenant , sealing up unto the party baptized , all the good of the covenant to be in season communicated and enjoyed , from step to step , through the whole progress of christianity , from this first beginning thereof , according to the tenour and order of the covenant . hence it belongs to all that are within the covenant , or that have but a first entrance thereinto , children as well as others , though they have not yet such faith and growth , as imports that progress in the covena●t , and fruition of the comfort and ●ruits thereof that is sealed up in the lords supper . we readily grant , and say [ that ●●ne ought to have the seal of baptism applied in th●● , 〈◊〉 those that are interested in the covenant ] and that by faith , unless you can shew us any other way of interest in the covenant , but by faith. but withall , we aff●●m and prove , that the children in question have interest in the covenant , according to the known tenour thereof , gen. . . and therefore that the seal of baptism is to be applied to them . in all this therefore we see no sufficient ground or reason to necessitate a dissent from the synod . our brethren have one thing more yet to adde ; viz. that there is danger of great corruption and pollution creeping into the churches , by the enlargement of the subject of baptism . answ. . and is there no danger of corruption by over-straitning the subject of baptism ? certainly it is a corruption to take from the rule , as well as to adde to it ; and a corruption that our weakness is in danger of . and it is a dangerous thing to be guilty of breaking gods covenant , by not applying the initiating seal unto those it is appointed for , even unto all that are in covenant , gen. . , , . moses found danger in it , exod. . . is there no danger of putting those : out of the visible church , whom christ would have kept in ? and depriving them of those church - advantages ( rom. . , . ) that might help them toward heaven ? even christs own disciples may be in danger of incurring his displeasure , by keeping poor little one● away from him , mark . , . to go pluck up all the tares was a ●ealous motion , and had a good intention , but the housholder concludes , there 's danger in it of plucking up the wheat also . . if the enlargement be beyond the bounds of the rule , it will bring in corruption , else not ; our work is therefore to study the rule and keep close to that , as the onely true way to the churches purity and glory . to go aside from that to the right hand wlll bring corruption as well as to go to the left : the way of anabaptists , viz. to admit none to membership and baptism but adult professors , is the straitest way , and one would think it should be a way of great purity , but experience hath abundantly shewed the contrary ; that it hath been an inl●t to great corruption , and looseness both in doctrine and practice , and a troublesome dangerous underminer of reformation . it is the lords own way , and his institutions onely , which he will bless , and not mans inventions , though never so plausible : neither hath god ( in his wisdome ) so instituted the frame of his covenant , and the constitution of the church thereby , as to make a perfect separation between good and bad , or to make the work of conversion , and initial instruction needless in the churches . conversion 〈◊〉 to the children of the covenant a fruit of the covenant , saith mr co●ton b) . if we do not keep in the way of a converting grace-giving covenant , and keep persons under those church-dispensations wherein grace is given , the church will dye of a lingring , though not of a violent death . the lord hath not set up churches onely that a few old christians may keep one another warm while they live , and then carry away the church into the cold grave with them when they dye : no , but that they might , with all the care , and with all the obligations , and advantages to that care that may be , 〈◊〉 up still successively another generation of subjects to christ that may stand up in his kingdome when they are gone , that so he might have a people and kingdome successively continued to him from one generation to another . we may be very injurious to christ as well as to the souls of men , by too much straitning , and narrowing the bounds of his kingdome or visible church here on earth . certainly enlargement , so it be a regular enlargement thereof , is a very desirable thing : it is a great honour to christ to have many willing subjects ( as these are willing and desirous to be under the government of christ that we plead for ) and very suitable to the spirit and grace of christ in the gospel . in church-reformation , it is an observable truth ( saith ●areus on the parable of the tares ) that those that are for too much strictness , do more bu●t then profit the church . see dioda●e on matt. . . cyprian epist. . . there is apparently a greater ▪ ●anger of corruption to the churches by enlarging the subjects of full communion , and admitting unqualified , or meanly qualified persons to the lords table and voting in the church , whereby the interest of the power of godliness will soon be prejudiced , and elections , admissions , censures , so carried , as will be hazardous thereunto . now it is ev●dent , that this is , and will be the temptation , viz. to ever-enlarge full communion , it baptism be limited to the children of such as are admitted thereunto . and it is easie to observe , that many of the reasonings of our brethren , and others ▪ are more against the non-admission of the parents in question to full communion , then against the admission of their children to baptism . how unreasonable is it then to object against us ●s corrupters of the churches , when we stand for a greater strictness then they in that wherein the main danger of church-corrupting lyes ? we doubt not to affirm , that that principle which hath been held forth by our brethren , viz. [ that if the church can have any hope of persons , that they have any thing of faith and grace i● them , though never so little , they ought , being adult , to be admitted to full communion ] this we say will , if followed , bring corruptions and impurities into churches : for he must abandon all the rules of charity , that cannot hope this of multitudes of young persons that grow up among us , who yet if they were presently admitted to full communion , we should soon feel a change in the management of church●affairs ; and the interest of formality and common profession , would soon be advanced above the interest of the power of godliness . whether we be in the right in this matter of strictness as to full communion , scripture and reason must determine ( and were this the place of that dispute , we have much to say in it , and to be sure , the practice of these churches hitherto hath been for it , as also their profession in the synod in . platform of discipline , cap. . sect. . hence to depart from that , would be a real departure from our former practice and profession : whereas to enlarge baptism to the children of all that stand in the church , is but a progress to that practice that suits with our profession ) but certain it is that we are , and stand for the purity of the churches , when as we stand for such qualifications as we do , in those we would admit to full communion ; and do withstand those notions and reasonings that would inferre a laxness therein , which hath apparent peril in it . but we can hardly imagine what hurt it would do , or what danger of spoiling the churches there is in it , for poor children to be taken within the verge of the church , under the wings of christ in his ordinances , and to be under church-care , and discipline and government for their souls good ; to be in a state of initiation and education in the church of god , and consequently to have baptism , which is the seal of initiation ; when as they shall not come to the lords table , nor have any hand in the management of church-affairs ( as elections of officers , admissions , and censures of members ) untill as a fruit of the foresaid help and means , they attain to such qualifications as may render their admission into full communion safe and comfortable , both to their own souls , and to the churches . in sum , we make account , that if we keep baptism within the compass of the non-excommunicable , and the lords supper within the compass of those that have ( unto charity ) somewhat of the power of godliness ( or grace in exercise ) we shall be near about the right middle-way of church-reformation . and as for the preservation of due purity in the church , it is the due exercise of discipline that must do that , as our divines unanimously acknowledge , for that is gods own appointed way ( and the lord make and keep us all careful and faithul therein ) not the curtailing of the covenant , which may be man's way ; but is not the way of god wherein alone we may expect his blessing . the good lord pardon the imperfections and failings that attend us in these debates ; accept of what is according to his will , and establish it ; save us from corrupting extremes on either hand , and give unto his people one heart and one way to fear him for ever , for the good of them and of their children after them . errata in the book following . page . line . their infancy , reade from infancy . pag. . lin . . he added r. here added . pag. . lin . . there r. here . pag. . lin . . his r. this . pag. . lin . . of that r. of the pag. . lin . . do run r. do not run . pag. . lin . . do administer r. so administer . in answ. to the preface . pag. . lin . . mor r. more . pag. . lin . ult . into r. unto . a defence of the answer and argvments of the synod , met at boston in the year . concerning the subject of baptism , and consociation of churches : against the reply made thereto , by the reverend mr. iohn d●venpor● , in his treatise , entituled , another essay for investigation of the truth , &c. the reverend author in this his essay , before he come to speak to that which the synod delivered , doth premise eleven or twelve positions , by which ( he saith ) the determinations of the synod are to be examined , and so far , and no further to be approved and received , as a consent and harmony of them with th●se may be cleared , &c. pag. . concerning which positions we will not say much , because the intendment in this def●nce , is onely to clear what is said by the synod , against what this reverend author saith against the same in his 〈◊〉 ; and therefore untill he speak to what the synod delivered , we think it not needful to insist long upon these premised positions . onely this we may say concerning them , that though su●dry things in them be sound and good , yet the posi●ions themselves being not scripture , but his own private collections , therefore we do not see that we are bound to take these positions ▪ as the standard and rule , by which to judge of what the synod saith : but if the synods doctrine be agreeable to scripture , we think that may be sufficient for defence thereof , whether it agree with the premised positions , or not . and when himself , pag. . doth commend it as a good profession in the synod , that , to the law and to the testimony they do wholly referre themselves ; had it not been also commendable in him to have done the like , rather then to lay down positions ( though he conceives them rightly deduced from scripture ) and then to say , nothing is to be approved further then it consents with those positions ? himself may please to consider of this . but to leave this of the premised positions , and to come to the main business ; concerning the subject of baptism , the first proposition of the synod is this , viz. they that according to scripture are members of the visible church , are the subjects of baptism : the second is this : viz. the members of the visible church according to scripture , are confederate visible believers , in particular churches , and their infant-seed , i. e. children in 〈◊〉 ▪ whose next parents , one or both , are in covenant . now what saith the reverend author to these ? that which he saith , is this : i cannot approve the two first propositions , without some change of the terms : in the first , thus ; they that according to christs ordinance , are regular and actuall members , &c. the second , thus ; the actuall and regular members of the visible church , according to christs ordinance , &c. pag. . answ. so that the alteration required , is , that in stead of [ scripture ] it be said [ christs ordinance ] and in stead of [ members ] [ actuall and regular members . ] but a necessity of this alteration doth not appear : for , as for the one particular , can we think that th●re i● any such difference between the scripture , and the ordinance of christ , that 〈◊〉 may be members of the visible church , and so subjects of baptism , according to the f●●er , and yet not according to the la●ter● ▪ if it be according to the scripture , may it not ●e said to be according to christs ordinance ? sure , when christ himself bids us search the scripture , job . . . and when the bereans are commended for searching the scripture , whether those things were so , which were preached by paul , acts . . and when all the scripture is for our learning , rom. . . and doth contain a perfect rule in all things that concern gods worship , whether natural , or instituted , as this reverend author saith , in the first of his premised positions ; upon these grounds it may seem , that what is according to scripture , needs not to want our approbation , for fear left it agree not with the ordinance of christ. and indeed , how can that be taken for an ordinance of christ , which is not according to scripture ? that being considered also , which is said by the reverend author in his second position , that whatsoever christ did institute in the christian churches , he did it by gods appointment , as moses by gods appointment , gave out what he delivered in the church of israel . now if all that is instituted by christ , be according to gods appointment , and that the scripture contains a perfect rule concerning all instituted worship , and so concerning all gods appointments ; it may seem a needless thing to withhold our approbation from that which is according to scripture , as if it might be so , and yet not be according to the ordinance of christ. besides , how shall we know a thing to be an ordinance of christ , if it be not according to the scripture ? and for the other alteration desired , that in stead of [ members ] it be [ regular and actuall members ] may we think that men may , or can be members according to scripture , and not regular , nor actuall members ? if the scripture be the rule , and ● perfect rule , then they that are members according to scripture , are members according to rule , and so are regular members . and if actuall be contradistinct from potentiall ; then they that are members according to scripture , are actuall members , and not onely potentiall , or potentially such : for , such potential members the scripture approveth not . upon these grounds , we see no necessity of the alteration fore-mentioned . propos. . the infant-seed , &c. when grown up are personally under the watch , discipline , and government of the church . arg. . children were under patriarchall and mosaical discipline of old , &c. reply . the text alledged ( viz. gen. . . & . , . . and gal. . . ) do not prove the antecedent , viz. that children were under patriarchal and mosaical discipline , p. . ans. and yet for the one of these , the reverend author confesseth , in answer to this argument , pag. . . that the members of the church in the patriarchs families , were to continue in communion with the church from their being circumcised , all the dayes of their life , untill they were cast out , as ishmael — or voluntarily departed from it , as esau. and doth not this sufficiently imply , that children in those churches , when adult , were under discipline in those churches ? for , can we think that those churches had no church-discipline in them ? or that the members of them were not under that discipline ? or the children , when grown up , were not members ? sure , if they continued in communion with the church from their being circumcised , all the dayes of their life , until they were cast out , or did voluntarily go away ; then it was not meer growing up to be adult , that caused their church-relation , or communion with the church , to cease . and if their communion with the church did not cease , but continue , how can it be avoided but they were under church-discipline ? where shall we finde ground from scripture or good reason , that these children , when adult , did still continue in communion with the church , and yet were not under the church-discipline that then was ? it seems to us , that the one of these , which the reverend author doth expresly affirm , doth unavoidably imply the other , which is affirmed by the synod . there might be many children in those families of the patriarchs , who when they were adult , were neither cast out , as ishmael , nor departed , as esau ; and these continuing in communion with the church all the dayes of their life , from their being circumcised , as the reverend author saith they did , they were therefore under the church-discipline that then was . and if they might be cast out , as ishmael was , gen. . as the reverend author confesseth ; it cannot be denied but that there was discipline in those churches , and that children , when grown up , were subject thereto : for , as for that which the reverend author suggesteth , pag. . that ishmael being thirteen years old when he was circumcised , was then admitted into church-fellowship and full communion by his personal covenanting , being at years of discretion . the answer is , that it is very unusual that children at thirteen years of age should be fit for full communion . and as for ishmael , there is no such thing testified of him in the scripture ; but on the contrary , when the lord saith , he should be a wilde man , and his hand against every man , and every mans hand against him , gen. . & when as he soon after became such a mocker and persecutor , gen. . gal. . as that for it he was cast out , gen. . it is therefore not very probable that he at thirteen years of age had so much goodness in him , as that upon the profession thereof he should then be admitted to full communion . it seems to us more probable , considering the things mentioned , that he was admitted as a childe in minori●y , by vi●tue of the covenant with abraham and his seed ▪ and yet when grown up , he was so under discipline , as to be cast out for his wickedness . and for that other of mosaicall discipline , the reverend author confesseth , p. , . that all the grown members of the church of israel were brought under such discipline , as was established in that church by a solemn covenant , whereof all adult persons were to take hold personally . and if all the grown members of that church were brought under such discipline as was then established , then the other particular in the antecedent , that children were u●der mosaicall discipline , is here also confessed by the author . indeed , he conceiveth they were brought under discipline by covenanting personally ; but that is not clear : but for the thing it self , that they were under discipline , this we see is by him confessed ; which is that which the synod affirmed . and why may not that text , gal. . . be a sufficient proof thereof ? if they that were circumcised , were bound to all the duties of the law , as the text affirmeth ; then they were bound to that ecclesiastical discipline that the law of moses appointed : and therefore children being circumcised , were so bound , even when they were adult , for then they remained circumcised . there are good expositors who upon that text do teach , that circumcision was an obligation to the keeping of all the commandments of the law in the old testament , and that baptism is the like for all the commandments of the gospel : see paraeus , and perkins in loc . whereby it appeareth ; that what discipline was under the old testament , children circumcised in infancy were subject thereto , when adult , as being bound by their circumcision to all the commandments of the law. so much for defence of the antecedent in this argument . but , saith the reverend author , though the antecedent were more manifestly true , yet the consequent is not good ; for there is not par ratio , the like reason of those patriarchal and mosaical churches , and of congregational churches under the gospel , page . ans. and yet the reverend author confesseth in position the fifth and sixth , that the covenant of abraham was the same in substance under the law , and under the gospel : and , that the kingdome of god , is the same in substance which is taken from the iews , and given to the gentiles ; yea , and that baptisme is come in the place of circumcision , and therefore infants of confederates are now to be baptized , as then they were to be circumcised , they being both outward seales of the same covenant in substance . so that here seems to be a plain acknowledgment that there is par ratio , though in the place in hand it be denied . for , if the covenant be for substance the same now as it was then , and that therefore baptism may be now dispensed to infants , as circumcision was then , those ordinances being both seales of the same covenant for substance ; is not this an acknowledgment of a par ratio between them ? and if so , what should hinder but that children , when grown up , may as well be under church-discipline now , as under the old testament ? for , may they be now baptized in their infancy , as then they were circumcised , because there is in both par ratio ? and might they be then under church-discipline , and yet now not so , because here there is not par ratio ? is poedobaptisme in the new testament , rightly inferred from the circumcision of infants in the old testament , because here there is par ratio between them ? and is not their subjection to church-discipline , when adult , in the new testament , rightly inferred from the like subjection in the old ? it doth not appear that there is any want of par ratio in the one case , any more then in the other . as for that which is here immediately brought in pag. . to prove that there is not , par ratio ; viz. because the members of the church , in the patriarchs families , were to continue in communion with the church all the dayes of their life , until they were cast out , as ishmael or voluntarily departed from it , as esau. we conceive this is no proof at all of the disparity alledged ; and the reason is , because we say the very same concerning the children of church-members in these dayes , viz. that they still continue in the church all the dayes of their life , if they be not cast out in a gospel way , which he doth not disprove . and therfore in this there is no want of par ratio . and for the proof of disparity between the church of israel , and our churches , viz. . that we do not read of any ordinance given them , for casting out members for sins against the moral law. and . that the grown members of that church were brought under such discipline as was established in that church , by a solemn covenant , whereof all adult persons were to take hold personally . the answer is ; touching the former of these , that sundry things may be said to shew , that it is very probable that in israel there was appointed of god an ordinance of church-censure or d●scipline , not only for sins against the ceremoniall law , but also against the moral ; for , the lord doth so of●en , and earnestly command holiness and purity to that people , and so often and severely reproveth the contrary , and that not only in the offenders themselves , but also in them that suffered it , and this not only in ceremonial matters , but also in sins against the moral law , that it is not very probable that he would have no church-discipline used for such matters as these , but only for ceremonial . is it likely , that if a man should eat leavened bread in the time of the passeover , that for this he must be cut off from the congregation , as exod. . , . or if a man should touch a dead body , or a bone of a man , or a grave , &c. that this were such uncleanness , as that he must not then enter into the tabernacle or temple , but , if he did , it would be a defiling of the sanctuary of the lord , and therefore such offenders must be cut off from their people ? and yet nevertheless , if a man had killed another man , or had committed the sin of whoredome , or drunkeness , or other abomination , that yet there was no such uncleanness in these as to defile the sanctuary , or to cause a man to be kept out , or cut off , or cast out for the same ? this seems to us not very probable . and yet if it were certain and clear , that so it was in those times , the purpose for which this is alledged is not gained thereby , but the consequence questioned may be sound and good for all this . the consequence is , that if children were under mosaical discipline of old , then they are under congregational discipline now : this is the synods argument . but , saith the answer , this consequence is not good , because mosaical discipline was not to cast men out for sins against the moral law : but , say we , the argument and consequence may be good for all this ; for , suppose there were this difference between the mosaical discipline that was then , and the congregational discipline that is now , that the former were onely for ceremonial uncleanness , and the lat●er for moral ; yet , if children were under the discipline that was then , we conceive they are therefore under the church-discipline that is now : and we think this arguing to be better , and more strong , then to say , that because they are not under such discipline as was then , that therefore now they are under none at all . and plain it is , that the apostle a●gueth for the maintenance of the ministry now under the gospel , from the maintenance of the ministry that was under moses , cor. . . and sheweth the danger of unworthy receiving our sacraments , from the evil that b●fell many who were partakers of the baptism , and the spirituall meat and drink that was then , cor. . , , &c. and if he argue from the ministry and sacraments that we●e under moses ; why i● not the argument also good from the mosaicall discipline ? we cannot think the apostle ▪ s consequence might be denied , because we have now no such holy things ; no such temple and altar as was then ; no such baptism in the cloud , and in the sea ; no such mann● , and water out of the rock , as they had : to deny the consequence of the apostle's argument upon any such ground , we think were very insufficient ; and therefore why may not the consequence be good , from the subjection of children to mosaical discipline , to prove their subjection to new-testament-discipline ; although it were granted , that their discipline were onely for ceremonial matters , and that we have none such , but onely for sins against the moral law ? for ought we see , the argument and consequence is good in this case , as well as in the other . the other particular alledged by the reverend author , to shew a difference between the church of israel , and our churches , and that therefore children , when adult , might be under mosaical discipline , but not under congregational ▪ is this : because in that church grown members were brought under such discipline as was established in that church by a solemn covenant , whereof all adult persons were to take hold personally . p. . ans. it is not clear , nor at all said in the place alledged , viz. d●ut . . , , . that by the entring into covenant there mentioned , they were brought under the church-discipline in that church , but they might be under church-discipline otherwise , even by the commandment and ordinance of god , and not meerly by that covenant , or by means of it . for , if that covenant were entred into in the day of their bringing the tythes of the third year , which is spoken of in the verses immediately preceding , viz. ver . , , , . then it could not be that covenant that brought all adult persons under discipline : for , a man might be adult , and yet not have any tythes to bring ; as not having yet any personal estate or possession of his own , as we see it often is with us ; yea , a man might be adult , and have estate and tythes two years afore this , for this that is here spoken of was the tythes of the third year . now if a man were adult and had personal estate afore this time , or adult and had yet no estate , and that this covenant was onely entred into at that third year of tything , then ● cannot be that by this covenant they were brought under discipline , for they were adult , and so under discipline afore . or if the covenant here mentioned , were not entred into at the third year of tything ; then why might it not be of all the people joyntly together , and not of any particular persons severally by themselves ? there is nothing in the text contrary to this , but rather for it , in that the covenancer here spoken of , is avouched that day to be the lords peculiar people , ver . , . which title of [ people ] is not suitable to any particular person . and sure it is , that covenant deut . , , &c. was of all the people joyntly together , for it was a covenant not onely with men , but with women , yea with little children , and with such as were not there that day , but with posterity that should be afterward born ; and therefore this was not onely a covenant of the adult , to bring them under church-discipline as if else they had not been under it , but being also with little ones , that were then in minority , it might suffice to bring them under discipline when they should be grown up . so that nothing doth yet appear , to prove that ●●ult persons in israel were not under discipline in that church , but by their taking hold of the covenant personally ; but for ought that doth yet appear , they might be under discipline afore they had thus done . therefore we yet see not any such disparity between the patriarchall and mosaicall churches formerly , and the congregationall churches under the. new testament , but that from the subjection of children , when adult , unto church-discipline in the former , may be justly inferred their subjection thereto in the latter . so much for defence of the synods first argument , to prove that children of church-members , when adult , are under the watch , discipline , and government of the church . to the second argument , to prove children when adult subject to church-discipline ; viz. because they are within the church , or members thereof , and therefore subject to church-judicature , cor. . . the answer that is given , is , that the argument is to be denied , and the text alledged doth not prove it . ans. the words of the text are express and plain , what have i to do to judge them also that are without ? do ye not judge them that are within ? but them that are without god judgeth . by which it is plain , and undeniable , that though those that are without be not subject to church-judicature , or church-discipline , yet for those that are within it is otherwise : and therefore , if these children be within , to deny them to be subject to church-judicature , is to deny the words of the holy ghost . as for that which is here said , that by [ them within ] is meant members in full communion , such as are in full membership , as well of all other ordinances , as of censures : our answer is , that this should be proved , as well as affirmed , for , affirmanti incumbit probatio . it was wont to be said , non est distinguendum ubi lex non distinguit : distinctions should be warranted by the word ; therefore when the word saith , such as are within , are subject to church-judicature , to restrain this being within , to those that are in full communion in all ordinances , and to exempt many others , though adult persons , and within the church , onely because they are not so with●n , as to be in full communion ; we say , to exempt them upon this ground from church-judicature , is more then we see any sufficient proof for . as for the reason here rendred , that excommunication is a casting out from communion , and therefore how can any be formally excommunicated , who were never in communion , and so within the church ? the answer is , that the synod doth not here expresly speak of excommunica●●o● , and that the children are subject to that ordinance ; but onely saith , they are under the watch , discipline and gove●nment of the church , and therefore there was no need here to answer , that they cannot be excommunicated : for , if that were so , ( which we are farre from granting ) yet what the synod here saith , may be true f●r all this . and th●ugh ●t be true , that such as were never in church-communion at all , cannot properly be excommunicated ; yet the reverend author , we suppose , doth not , nor will deny , but that many who have never yet been p●rtakers of all ordinances , or of the lord● supper as children in minority , yet may be counted church-member● , and so have much church-communion , and enjoy much benefit thereby ; as the covenant , and baptism the seal thereof ; the prayers , and blessing of the church ; church-watchfulness , to excite them , and encourage them to , and in good , and to reclaim them from evil : such church-communion as this , they may be partakers of , who y●● have not been admitted to full communion ; and therefore what impossibility is there in it , but that men may be excommunicated , viz. from such communion as they had , though they never had such full communion as others . if a parent in full communion be justly , for some delinquency , excommunicated , we suppose the reverend author * will say , that his children in minority are cut off from their membership with him , and so are excommunicated with the pa●ent . and if so , then there may be excommunicatio● , where there never was the enjoyment of full communion . and so for all that is here said , [ that pe●sons not in full communion cannot be excommun●ca●ed ] yet what the synod saith may be true , that persons not in full communion may be under the watch , and discipline , and government of the church : and how much more if even such persons may be cut off from their church-membership , and so from what church-communion they had ? to the third argument , to prove children of church-members , when adult , to be under the watch , discipline , and government of the church ; viz. because they are disciples , and therefore under discipline in christs school . the reverend author's answer hath in it a concession , and an exception : the concession is , that all church-members are disciples , infants foeder●lly , &c. and therefore both are under the discipline of the church suitably to their membership . now if all church-members be disciples , and therefore under d●scipline , and even infants so in their way ; it is strange , that these that their infancy are now become adult , should now be n● disciples , nor church-members , and so not under church-discipline , which before they were under ; when as they have neither been cut off from their membership and discipleship , nor deserving any such matter : one would think it were more rational to say , that as they were in church-relation when infants , so they continue therein , though adult ; except in some way of god they be cut off therefrom , and do so deserve . but though the reverend author yield , as is said , yet he puts in this exception ; that he findes not any where in scripture , that such adult persons are styled disciples , or accounted members . ans. suppose such term or title were not found applied to the persons spoken of , yet sith for the thing it is confessed that they were disciples and members when infants , is it not more rationall to confess they are so still ( except the scripture said the contrary ) and that they so continue ( though the term and title be not found ) untill they be upon desert cut off , or cast ou● , rather then to say , that now being adult , they have lost the relation and priviledge which they had when they were infants , though they have not been cut off from it , nor ever so deserved before men ? for , if they incur such loss by becoming adult , it may seem it were good for members children to dye in their infancy , and never live to be adult ; sith in their infancy they had church-relation , and covenant-state , which now they have lost , though without their desert . the adult disciples , in mat. . must observe , and do all christs commandments , therefore the disciples there intended , w●th reference to adult persons , are members in full communion , pag. . ans. this arguing is but too lik● to that of the antipoedobaptists : for it is well known how they would exclude infants by this text , from being partakers of bap●ism , because they are not d●sciples so , made by teaching , or by being taught to observe all christs commandments ; because infants cannot do this , therefore , say they , they are not disciples to be baptized . but the reverend author confesseth , that i●fants are disciples ; and , as such , are to be baptized . why then should he say that now , when they are become adult , they are disciples no longer , as not observing all christs commandments , not being in full communion ? the arguing of the antipoedopaptists from this text is to this purpose , viz. all disciples that are to be baptized , ●●e taught to observe all christs commandments ; but this doth not agree to infants : therefore infants are no● disciples that are to be baptized . and is not the arguing of the reverend author much like it ? viz. all adult persons that are disciples , do observe all ch●ists commandments : but this doth not agree to such adult persons as are not in full communion : therefore adult persons that are not in full communion are not disciples . the conclusion in the former arguing , the reverend author we are confident will not own ; and therefore the conclusion in the latter , being so l●ke unto it , one answer may serve for both the arguments ; which is this , that the major propositions in both do not universally and absolutely hold but onely so far as the persons are capable ; so far all disciples that are to be baptized , and all adult persons that are disciples , are to observe all christs commandments : but as this doth not exclude infants from being disciples , and from being baptized ; so neither are the adult person ▪ spoken of excluded from being disciples , though neither the one nor the other be yet fit for observing all christs commandments , in full communion , in all the ordinances . to the fourth argument ; they are in church-covenant , therefore subject to church-power , gen. . . & . . the answer is , that they are not in covenant dejure , being adult , and not admitted into church-communion in all ordinances . ans. and yet the text saith , the covenant of abraham is with him , and his seed in their generations , gen. . . and this reverend author will not deny , but that those that are in the covenant in their infancy , are thereby left under engagement to service and subjection to christ in his church , when they shall be grown up , and that this engagement upon them is strong — to know the god of their parents , and to serve him with a perfect heart and a willng mind p. . so that if they do it not , but live in neglect or contempt of the ordnances , or unsuitable conversation , they hereby live in the breach of that covenant , whereby they were left under engagement in their infancy , pag . ● . now if this be so , it plainly appeareth hereby , that as they were in the covenant in ●h●● i●fancy , they are likewise so when adult ; for else , how could their sins of omission or commission be breach of that covenant ? can a man be guilty of breaking covenant , when he is not 〈◊〉 but the sins of these adult persons are breach of covenant , therefore they are in the covenant : therefore that cannot stand which is here said , that these adult persons , that were in covenant in their infancy , are not now in covenant when adult , until they be admitted into church-communion in all ordinances . to the fifth argument , viz. they are subjects of the kingdome of christ , and therefore under the laws and government of his kingdom● , ezek. . , . the answer is , that this argument may be retorted against themselves , and the proofs of it , thus : the subjects of christs kingdome have full communion in all the priviledges of christs kingdome , but these adult persons have not so , ex-confesso , therefore they are not subjects ●f christs kingdome , and so are not under the laws and government of it . ans. the sum is , the subjects of christs kingdome have full communion in all the priviledges of christs kingdome : but the adult persons spoken of have not such communion : e●go . but is this true , that a●● the subjects of christs kingdome have full communion in all the priviledges of it , even in all , and not in some onely , i. e. in all ordinances ? what shall be said then of little children ? must they have communion in all church-priviledges , and all ordinances , as the lords supper , voting in elections , &c. or else be no subjects of christs kingdome ? it is plain , that such communion they cannot have ; and yet it is as plain , that of such is the kingdome of go● , and of christ , and therefore he would have them to be brought unto him , and rebuked those that would have kept them from him , mark and therefore persons may be subjects of christs kingdome , and yet not have communion in all th● ordinances , or priviledges of that kingdome . and therefore the adult persons spoken of , may be subjects of christs kingdome , though not yet fit for all ordinances ; and yet being ●ubjects , must be subject to such laws of that kingdome as are suitable to their state , as infants and little children to such as are suitable to theirs . exclude these adult persons from being under the laws and government of christs kingdome , because they have not communion in all the priviledges of it , and by the same reason we may exclude infants : allow infants to be subjects of christs kingdome , and partakers of some priviledges of it , viz. such as they are capable of , though not of all ; and then why may not the like be yielded concerning the adult persons spoken of ? to the sixth argument , the answer returned , is , that this is the same with the third , and therefore the same answer may serve for this also . ans. if this were so , then our defence of the third , may be a defence of this also : nevertheless , it seemeth this argument is not the same with the third , but distinct from it , the mediums in them not being the same , but distinct : for in the one , the argument is from their being disciples , or scholars , and therefore under discipline in christs school ; but this here is from their being baptized , and that therefore they are in a state of subjection to the authoritative teaching of christs ministers , and to the observation of all his commandment● , and that therefore they are in a state of subjection to discipline : for thus the argument stands ; they that are baptized , are thereby left in a state of subject on to the authoritative teaching of christs ministers , and to the observation of all his commandments , and therefore in a state of subjection to discipline : but the adult persons spoken of are persons baptized : therefore , &c. the p●op●si●ion is grounded on the text , mat. . , . where christs ministers are required to bap●ize , and to teach the baptized to observe all his commandments . the assumption is plain of it self . to the seventh argument , viz. that elders must seed , i. e. both teach and rule all the flock ; and that children are part of the flock . the reverend author answereth , that this concerneth not such grown persons as are not in full communion , for without this they are not to be accounted of the flock or church . ans. if this that is here said were sufficiently and clearly proved , it would be very acceptable to many elders in this country , as clearing them from a great part of the burthen which they suppose themselves to be under . and when the holy-ghost saith , that they must take heed to themselves and to all the flock , act. . and that they must watch for their souls , as they that must give account , heb. . . to say , that these soules , and this flock , are only such as are in full communi●n , and infants or children in minority ; and that these last mentioned ▪ who then were of the flock , do now cease to be of it , when they become ●aul ; and that now the elders are not charged to watch over them any longer , nor to give account of their soules , we fear this would be an undue straitning and limiting of the texts alledged , and would be no good plea before the lord ; and therefore without b●t●er proof , we dare not assent unto it . for what the synod alledgeth , " that the apostle writing to the f●ock or church at ephesus , doth also write to children , eph. . . as counting them part of the flock : we do not see that this is sufficiently taken off , by what the reverend author answereth , viz. that those children were either children in their minority , or if adult , they were personally joyned to the church , and so in full communion . for , let the words and scope of the text be considered , and we conceive it will appear , that this exposition of the place is too narrow ; for the children there spoken of , are such as were bound to obey their parents in the lord , this being right , and such as were under the fifth commandment ; the words whereof the apostle doth there alledge , honour thy father and mother , &c. now how shall it appear , that though children in minority , and children when admitted into full communion in the church , are bound to obey their parents , and to honour father and mother , yet other children are not so bound ? is there any ground for it , that children now adult , if not in full communion in the church , are exempted from this commandment of obedience to their parents , and of ho●ouring of them ? we conceive there is none : and if there be not , then the children there spoken of , are children adult as well as others , w●ether in full communion or not . and if so , then these children , as well as others , are part of the flock and church of ephesus , to whom that epistle is written , and then the whole flock being under the charge of elders to feed them ( i. e. both to teach and k●l● them ) it appeareth thereby , that what the synod here saith , that these children are under the watch , and discipline , and government of the church , is sound and good , and so stands , for all that is here alledged to the contrary . in answer to the eighth argument , from the danger of irreligion and apostacy breaking into churches , and the want of any church-way to prevent and heal the same , if these children of church-members be not under church-government and discipline , and that through want hereof , many church-members would be brought under that dreadfull judgement of being let-alone in their wickedness . hos. . , . the reverend author nameth sundry other means for preventing these evils ; as , that no adult person● be received into personal membership , till fit for all church-communion ; and that the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , which christ hath left to binde and loose , be rightly managed toward delinquent-members that are orderly admitted into church-communion ; and for others that are not thus joyned to the church , that authority in families and common-wealth be wisely and faithfully managed toward such , pag. , . ans. all these we acknowledge may , by the blessing of god , be much available in their way for ●he pu●pose ●lledged : and , oh that there were due care and wa●ch●●●lnes● in churche● ▪ families , and common-wealth , for the faithful and due exercise hereof ! nevertheless , we conceive all these are not ●●fficien● for the purpose desired ; . because some of them are not church-wayes at all ▪ of which the synods argument speaketh ; though it is not so expressed by the reverend author : and therefore t●ough government in families and common-wealth were carefully used in the manner expressed , yet church-way may be wanting for all this . . those church-wayes that are mentioned , viz. care in admitting into the church , and due managing the keyes of discipline to them that are so admitted , these are not sufficient to prevent the evils spoken of ; and the reason is , because there is a great multitude of persons who were either born in the church , or were admitted thereinto in their infancy or minority , who if they be not under church-discipline when adult , are let alone in their wickedness , in respect of any church-way to heal them ; and by want of this church-discipline toward these persons , i●religion and apostacy may break into the churches , notwithstanding all church-wayes toward others , and all other wayes in common-wealth and families toward these : for , church-way for the good of these there is none , if they be not under church-government and discipline . as for that which is here said by the reverend author , that the churches censuring of adult persons , admitted before they be qualified for communion in all ordinances , will not prevent or heal those evils , seeing the lord blesseth onely his own institutions , not mens devices ; and that humane inventions usually cause the evils which they pretend to cure , pag. . this reason may have in it self a truth ; viz. that gods institutions , and not mens inventions , are the way wherein men may expect a blessing . but , if such a thing be affirmed of church-discipline toward the persons spoken of , that such church-discipline is an humane invention , why should this be affirmed and not proved ? for , as for the persons spoken of , they were not first admitted when adult , but before they were adult , even in their infancy or minority ; and now being adult , and yet never cut off , or cast out from their church-relation , if by sin they deserve church-censure , and yet it be not applied to them , but that , in respect thereof , they be let alone , are they not then under that judgement , hos. of being ●e● alone in their wickedness ? and doth not this neglect make way for i●religion and apostacy in churches , no church-way being used toward these for prevent●ng thereof ? for we do not see any ground to think , that the use of church disc●pline toward such is an humane invention . for these particulars to us do seem plain : . that church-discipline should be used toward all that are within the church , as there may be occasion and need of it , and as in respect of understanding and age they are capable . . it is plain also , that the persons spoken of were once within the church , and , as such , were baptized in their infancy ; this cannot be denied , but by joyning with the antipoedobaptists , in denying the ba●●●sm and church-memb●rship of little children . and lastly , it is plain also , that the persons spoken of , though now they be adult , were never yet , in any way of god , cast out , or cut off from the church , and the relation to it which they formerly had ; and many of them are far from deserving any such matter . now though church-government and church-discipline toward such as were never in the church , might be counted an humane d●vic● , yet for such as were once according to order and divine institution within it , as members thereof , and never were since st●out of 〈◊〉 , or cut off f●om that relation ( which is the case of the persons spoken of ) to say , that church-government and church-discipline toward such , is an humane inven●io● , we see no sufficient reason either so to say or think ; but do rather conceive , that this church-discipline is so far from being an humane invention , that the neglect thereof , is a neglect of a divine institution ; and that a● sowning of 〈◊〉 personspunc ; and declaring of them to be non-members , which some speak for ) if this be not a church-censure , what is it other then an humane invention and device ? so much for defence of what is said by the synod in their third proposition , to prove , that the children of church-members , when grown up , are under the watch , discipline , and government of the church . propose . the fourth proposition of the synod , is , that these adult persons are not therefore to be admitted to full communion , meerly because they are and continue members , without such further qualifications as the word of god requireth thereunto . by which proposition of the synod , there is a preventing of an usual objection from the danger of polluting the ordinances by unworthy partakers , if the children of church-members be counted members , and to be ( as such ) under church-watchfulness and government when adult ; for some may think , that if this their relation to the church be granted , there will then be danger that they will also come to the lords supper afore they be duely qualified for that ordinance : now the scope of this fourth proposition is to prevent this evil ; and therefore it is the more to be admired , that the proposition should not be granted by the reverend author , and by all that desire the lords supper may be preserved from unworthy partakers , as we do not doubt but he doth . but why then is this proposition stuck at ? if it may not be granted , that these adult persons are not to be admitted to f●ll communion without such qualifications as the word of god requireth thereunto , which is what the synod saith ; must the contrary to this be granted , that they may be admitted thereunto without such qualifications at all ? we suppose the reverend author would not grant this : and yet he doth not consent to the other , but excepts against the proofs of it . for , saith he , though this proposition seems to them plain , yet it seems not sufficiently cleared by their proofs : . from cor. . , . where it is required , that such as come to the lords supper , be able to examine themselves , and discerne the lords body , else they will eat and drink unworthily , and eat and drink judgement to themselves , when they partake of this ordinance : but this ability is too of●●n seen to be wanting in the c●ildren of the covenant that grow up to years , pag. , . to this argument the reply of the reverend author is by way of concession , and of exception . his concessions are two : . that the want of such abilities in the children of the covenant , is indeed too often seen , through the too frequent neglect of parents in their education , and of ministers and churches in their institution , ( or instruction ) and catechizing , and watching over them , pag. . ans. it seems then that the children of church-members , even when they are grown up to years ( for it is of such that the synods argument here speaketh , and so the reverend author doth express it ) are not only under the education of parents , but also under the institution , catechizing and watch of the ministry , and of the church ; how then will that stand which was said before , pag. . that when they are grown up , they are not under the watch , discipline and government of the church ? for here it is granted , that they are under the watch of the church ( and if under church-watch properly as such , then under discipline ) and that the neglect of ministers and churches herein , is one cause of their want of ability to examine themselves , and to discern the lords body . now can the neglect of church-watchfulness be a cause of this evil , if the lord have not appointed them to be under the same ? these things seem not well to agree . again , if the want of such abilities be too often seen in the children of the covenant when grown up , as is here acknowledged ; then what the synod here saith seems to be true , and stand good , that such grown persons , though children of the covenant , or church-members , are not therefore to be admitted to full communion : the reason is , because notwithstanding this , they may want that ability that is requisite to such full communion . . the second concession here is , that membership is separable from , yea destitute of such-ability in the infant-seed or children of the covenant , in their minority , and therefore they are not to be admitted to the lords supper ; and that text ( viz. cor. ● . , . ) proves it . ans. doth that text prove that infants , and children in minority , though members of the church , are not yet to be admitted to the lords supper , because they are not able to examine themselves and to discerne the lords body ; and doth it not also prove the same concerning children when adult , if this disability be found in them also ? sure infants and children in minority , are not expresly mentioned in the text , no more then children when adult or grown up ; and if the logicians rule be good which saith à quatenus ad omne valet conj●quenti● , then if infants and children in minority must not be admitted to full communion , because of their want of the ability spoken of ; it will follow , if the like inability be found in the adult , that these also must not be admitted , and that for the like reason . and ●f that text cor. . be sufficient to prove the one , it is sufficient for proof of the other also ; and so this argument of the synod stands good . the exception he added , is , that yet it may not be granted , that when they are grown up to years , they are , and continue members regularly , being through want of that ability not fit for church-communion , ( i. e. for full communion . ) ans. if it may not be granted that they continue members , why should not something be produced to prove the contrary ? why should such a thing be barely affirmed , and not proved ? it is sure they were once members , and , as such , were baptized ; and it is clear , that though now they be adult , or grown up , yet they were never , in any way of god , cut off , or cast out from their membership : and therefore we think it more rational to say , that they st●ll c●ntinue to be members , then to say that they do not ; and this without alledging any proof at all . as for that which here followeth , that if persons being unbaptized should desire to have the covenant and their church-membership sealed by baptism , they must hold f●rth faith in christ wrought in their hearts , before they may be baptized , as philip required the eunuch , acts . so , by parity of reason , f●om baptized in infancy , being grown up to years , desires to be joyned to the church , he must hold forth his personall faith in the son 〈◊〉 god , &c the answer is , that there is not , as is said , parity of reason between the cases alledged , but great disparity : for , in the one case the persons spoken of are unbaptized ; in the other , baptized already : in the one case , the persons desire to have the covenant and their church-membership sealed by baptism ; and in the other case there is no such d●si●e , the persons having had the covenant , and their membership sealed by bapt●sm already , even in their infancy or minority long since : in the one case , the persons seem as yet to be non-members , though they do 〈◊〉 that priviledge ; but in the other case , the persons were church-members long ago . for , as for that term that is used concerning these 〈◊〉 d●●ring to be joyned to the church by their own personall 〈…〉 c●●ve this word of [ joyning ] to the church if it be meant of their first joyning thereto , is very improper , because the●● persons are not now to be so joyned , but were joyned to the church long since : nor is the church now to admit them to church-membership , for they were admitted thereto long since . the second argument of the synod for proof of this fourth proposition , is from the old testament , where though men did continue members of the church , yet for ceremoniall uncleanness they were to be kept from full communion in the holy things ; yea , and the priests and porters had speciall charge that men should not partake in all the holy things , unless duely qualified for the same , notwi●hstanding their membership , &c. to this the reverend author answereth , . that the invalidity of proofes from the old testament , being applyed to gospel-ordinances , and so this of baptism under the new testament , in things whereof there is not the like reason , hath been declared in the fourth , sixth , and eighth positions , with which this proof doth not agree . ans. to this we answer , . that there is validity , and much weight in proofs from the old testament , for confirming and clearing things under the new : for even those scriptures were written for our learning , rom. . . and christ himself bids us search them , as those which did testifie of him , joh. . . and brings many proofs out of those scriptures for confirming and clearing things under the gospel , luk. . , , . & . , . and so do the apostles likewise , even in main & fundamental matters , act. . , . & . . and so from the maintenance of the ministry that was under the old testament , to the maintenance of the ministry now , cor. . . from their sacraments to ours ; and from the danger of unworthy receiving those , to the danger of unworthy receiving ours , cor. . , . &c. by which , and much more that might be added , it is plain , that the scriptures of the old testament have much validity in them , for confirming and clearing truths in new testament-times . . the reverend author doth acknowledge , as was noted before , that the covenant of abraham is the same for substance , now under the gospel , as it was under the law ; and that the kingdome of god is the same to the iews formerly , and to the gentiles now ; and that baptisme of infants , under the new testament , may be rightly proved from the circumcision of inf●nts under the old. which passages do sufficiently witness , that in his judgement there is validity in proofs from the old testament , for things under the new. . it is a great weakness and mistake in sundry of the antipoedobaptists , that they would limit the proofs for infant-baptism , and for the covenant-interest of children , unto the scriptures of the new testament , as if the covenant of abraham , and the circumcision of infants in the old testament , were of no validity for the purpose mentioned . and it is not comfortable that the reverend author should so often harp upon this string , and so often mention this matter of the invalidity of old testament-scriptures for proof of matters in gospel times ; as if he did concur with them , in their tenet against ●oedobaptism , which he frequently professeth against , albeit in this , his language seems but too like theirs , which we could wish were otherwise . . for that expression of [ things whereof there is not the like reason ] being a limitation , or explanation of the invalidity spoken of , let this be applyed to the case in question , and we conceive it will not weaken the argument in hand , nor shew any invalidity therein , but rather the contrary ; for if ceremonial uncleanness did hinder men from full communion in the ordinances in the old testament , notwithstanding their membership ; is there not the like reason , or rather much more , that membership alone should not suffice for full communion in these dayes , if moral fitness and spiritual qualifications be wanting ? it seems in this case there is the like reason , or rather much more : and therefore the synods argument in the present case , and their proof from the old testament , cannot be laid aside , or refused , for any invalidity therein , through want of the like reason . the reverend author saith , if the texts alledged by the synod were applicable to church-members in gospel-times , yet they suit not the case in question . and why not ? the reason rendred , is , " because all men that were members of the iewish church , had full communion in all legal ordinances , even they that were ceremonially unclean had so before their uncleanness , and after they were healed of their uncleanness , as well as others . so then the unsuitableness is , that ceremoniall uncleannes , did debar men from full communion , though they had been partakers of it afore , and might be again after their cleansing : whereas the case in question is of such as yet never bad such full communion . but what weight is there in this , to weaken the synods argument ? if ceremoniall uncleanness did then hinder men from full communion , who had formerly had it is there not as much reason that want of spirituall qualifications should now binder men from such full communion , who yet have never had it ? one would think such a matter as would suffice for the debarring of one from full communion , who had formerly enjoyed it , might suffice for hindring one from such communion who never yet was partaker thereof . and if the priests and porters in israel had charge , that men should not partake of all the holy things , unless duely qualified for the same , notwithstanding their membership in f●ll communion with the church ( for so the reverend author , ● . . understands that place in chron. . ) doth it not much more follow , that such as yet never had such full communion may justly be kept theref●om , untill duely quali●ica , notwithstanding their membership ? for ought we see , this consequence is strong and undeniable , and so the synods argument in this place from the old testamen● is not at all overthrown , but rather more strengthned . as for what the reverend author saith , pag. , . to the particular texts here alledged , viz. levit. . , . numb . . , . & . , . ezek. . , , . which he understandeth to signifie and teach , that in gospel-times men should be removed ou● of church-communion by excommunication , if they were scandalous and impenitent sinners ; and that such scandalous persons , such as were visibly uncircumcised in heart , and spiritually unclean , should not be admitted into the church : we shall not insist upon these particulars , for it is our desire that no unworthy persons may be admitted into the church , nor suffered to continue therein . onely before we leave this second argument , it may be observed , that whereas the synod had said , more was required to adult persons eating the passover , then meer membership ; therefore so there is now to the lords supper . the reverend author answereth , it is true , more then that membership which they had in infancy or minority , was required in adult persons to eat the passover : for first , when they became adult , they were to covenant solemnly with the lord and his people in their own persons , whereunto heart-fitness was necessary , that their persons and services might be accepted of god — secondly , this heart-fitness was also to be exercised when they were to eat the passover , p. , . wherein there is a consent to what the synod had said , about more then membership to be requisite to the eating of the passover . and if this ground of the synod be true and good , is not their inference from it good also , viz. that more then membership is also requisite to the receiving of the lords supper ? the third argument of the synod for confirming this fourth proposition , is taken from the different nature of baptism and the lords supper ; the former firstly and properly sealing covenant-holiness , church-membership , and planting into christ , and so members as such are the subjects of that ordinance : but the lords supper is a sacrament of growth in christ , and of speciall communion with him , and so supposeth a speciall renewing of faith and repentance in them that partake of that ordinance . the reverend author making answer to this , faith nothing at all touching the different nature of these two ordinances , on which this argument of the synod is built ; and so baptism may be for all church-members as such , and the lords supper not for all , but onely for some , for any thing that the reverend author saith to the contrary . for , as for the different nature of these two ordinances , he saith nothing thereto at all : but his answer is about the communion that is inferred from church-membership , viz. that the membership of children in minority infers church-communion , so far as they are capable — and so they are to be baptized ; but the church-membership of adult persons infers communion in all ordinances , and particularly in the lords supper . which answer , as it medleth not with the different nature of baptism , and the lords supper , from which the synod argueth ; so it is an answer which being considered in it self , is nothing but a petitio principii , or a begging of the question , affirming that which is the thing to be proved : for , the synods proposition is , that these ad●lt persons are not therefore to be admitted to full communion , meerly because they are and continue members — and they give three arguments for this . now the reverend author in answer to the third of those arguments , saith , as here we see , that the membership of adult persons , infers communion in all ordinances , the lords supper , &c. the synod saith in effect , this membership alone doth not infer full communion ; and the answer here given , is an affirming of the contrary , viz. that it doth infer it ; which answer cannot goe for a sufficient overthrow of the synods proposition , unless we shall say , that a meer affirming of the contrary , is sufficient for that purpose . but if a contrary affirmation , be a sufficient confutation , it were easy in that way to confute the things that are most strongly proved . for a conclusion of this fourth proposition , and the arguments for it , the synod doth infer , that if persons when adult may be , and continue members , and yet be debarred from the lords supper , until meet qualifications for the same be found in them , then may they also ( until like qualifications ) be debarred from that power of voting in the church , which pertaines to males in full communion : — for how can they who are not able to examine and judg themselves , be thought able and fit to discern and judge in the weighty affairs of the house of god ? now what saith the reverend author to this ? one thing he saith , is this , that church-membership in adult persons , infers communion in all ordinances , in the lords supper , and in voting , and in censures ; which is nothing but an affirmation of the contrary to the synods proposition , which they had confirmed by arguments , and of their inference therefrom : but until their arguments be taken away , their proposition , and their inference from it , stands good : and therefore this affirmation of the contrary may not be admitted . another thing the reverend author here saith , is this , that no adult person may be received into meer membership regularly , until he be qualified fitly for other ordinances , and for voting , and judging in church-affairs . where , if by receiving such into membership be meant , that they were not members before now , when they are adult , but are now first received into that estate ; then the answer is , that the adult persons spoken of are not now first received into membership , but have been in that estate long since , even from their infancy or minority , and therefore they cannot properly be said to be now received into membership : but if hereby be meant , that they cannot regularly be acknowledged to be members , until they be fitly qualified for all ordinances ; for voting , and for judging in censures , then this is but the same which we had before , even an affirmation contrary to what the synod had said . but till the synods proposition , with their arguments for●● , and their inference from i● , be removed , the reader may judge what is to be thought of a meer affirmation to the contrary . so much for defence of the synods fourth proposition . propos. . for the fifth proposition , viz. church-members who were admitted in minority , understanding the doctrine of faith , and publickly professing their assent thereto ; not scandalous in life , and solemnly owning the covenant before the church , wherein they give up themselves and their children to the lord , and subject themselves to the government of christ in the church , their children are to be baptized . the first argument of the synod for confirming this proposition , is ; because the children here spoken of are partakers of that which is the main ground of baptizing any children whatsoever , and neither the parents nor the children do put in any barre to binder it . of which the former branch is proved ; because interest in the covenant is the main ground of title to baptism , and this these children have ; and that interest in the covenant is the ground of baptizing an● , the synod proves ; because in the old testament this was the ground of title to circumcision , gen. . , , , . to which baptism now answer , col. . , and because in acts . . they are 〈◊〉 ground exhorted to be baptized , because the promise ( 〈◊〉 covenant ) was to them and to their children . now what saith the reverend author to these proofs ? truly nothing at all that doth appear ; and therefore the argument & proofs of it , stand good for ought that is here said to the contrary . and indeed , how can it be otherwise ? sith nothing is more plain , then that the covenant was the ground of circumcision ; and that they in acts. . are therefore exhorted to be baptized : i will establish my covenant , saith god , gen. . between me and thee , and thy seed after thee — ye shall therefore keep my covenant : and this is my covenant which you shall keep , every male among you shall be circumcised : and ▪ saith peter , repent , and ●e baptized wherefore , or on what g●ou●d must they be so ? because ( saith he ) th● promise 〈…〉 to your children : whereby it is undeniably plain , that the covenant was the ground of title to circumcision , and is now of title to baptism . nor can this be denied by the reverend author , because he plainly yields in position fifth and sixth premised , that the covenant of abraham was the same in substance under the law , and 〈◊〉 the gospel ; and that baptism ●●come in the place of circumcision , and therefore infants of confederates are now to be baptized , as thou they were circumcised , they both being outward seals of the same covenant in substance , pag. , . so that in his judgement , title to circumcision then was , and to baptism now is , rightly inferred from interest in the covenant : which [ the very thing here : affirmed by the synod . what then doth the reverend author here say ? why , that which he saith , is this , that men must be duely qualified before they may be admired to covenant with the lord and his church for themselves and their children — and , that the primitive churches looked for this qualification in the 〈…〉 admitted into church-membership — which doth not at all enervate what the synod here saith . for , suppose men must be duely qualified before they be admitted to covenant and membership , doth this prove , that interest in the covenant is not the ground of title to the seal ? it seems not to prove it at all ; and the reason is , because this speaks not to the thing in question , but to another point . for , whether interest in the covenant do prove right to the seal , is one thing ; and how men should be qualified afore they be admitted to covenant , is another ; and the former being that which is here affirmed by the synod , it cannot be overthrown by what the reverend author affirmeth concerning the latter , except we shall say , that a thing may be sufficiently confuted by speaking to another point , when one doth not speak ad idem . whether the parents of the children here spoken of , be duely qualified for covenant , and unto membership , is not the thing here in question , nor spoken of by the synod ; but here is the thing they affirm , that interest in the covenant gives title to baptism — besides , suppose the qualifications here mentioned by the reverend author , of being " s●ints , sanctified , and faithfull in christ iesus , and the rest , suppose these be requisite in men that are to be admitted to covenant and membership , yet this concerns not the parents of the children here spoken of , because they are not now to be admitted into the covenant and church membership , but are therein already , and have been long afore now , even from their minority o● birth ; and therefore this also is another reason , why that which is here spoken by the reverend author is beside the question . further , whereas the synod here addeth , that a member , or one in covenant as such , is the subject of baptism , was further cleared in propos. . the reverend author answereth , that the light which that proposition holdeth forth for clearing this , is in one clause , which is here omitted , viz. [ according to scripture ] they that according to scripture are members of the visible church , are the subjects of baptism . ans. then let that clause be here added , which was there expressed by the synod in that first proposition : if then the reverend author do consent thereto , as it may seem by his manner of alledging it , that he doth ; then what the synod here affirmeth , is gained , viz. that interest in the covenant is the ground of title to baptism : and indeed the synod gave five arguments for clearing of that first proposition , which the reverend author doth not there meddle withall , much less remove ; and therefore they still stand in force . only it may be observed , that whereas here he seems to consent to the proposition , if that term [ according to scripture ] be added , yet when he spake to that first proposition , he consented not thereto , unless this term [ according to scripture ] might be changed into this [ according to christs ordinance ] otherwise he could not then concur with that proposition , and this term in it , though now it seems he doth : but whether it be expressed the one way or the other , with the term of [ members [ according to scripture ] or [ according to christs ordinance , ] if it be granted that such members are the subjects of baptisme , then the doctrine of the synod in this point is granted . as for what is here said to that proposition , if this term [ according to scripture ] be not omitted , but taken in , viz. that according to scripture , the covenant was differently administred in diff●rent times of the church ; which different manner of administration is here , pag. . and in the tenth position , which is here cited , said to be this in sum , that the church was once in families , or domestical ; under moses , national ; and under christ , congregational . ans. vvhat if all this were granted ? is there any thing in this ( for we would willingly keep to the question ) to overthrow the synods f●●st proposition , or their saying that is here under debate , viz. that interest in the covenant is the main ground of title to baptism ? it seems nothing at all . for , if according to scripture there have been different administrations of the covenant in different times , and that the church was heretofore domestical , afterward national , and now congregational ; all this may be granted , and yet it may be a truth that is here said , that interest in the covenant is the main ground of title to baptism . that these children are in covenant , the synod saith , appears ; . because if the parent be in covenant , the child is so also : but the parents in question are in covenant . to this the reverend author answereth , that if this being in covenant , be understood of being in it according to g●spel-rules , and that the childrens being in covenant , be understood of infant children , or children in minority , then the proposition is true , or else it must be denied . ans. concerning the one of these particulars , viz. of being in covenant according to gospel-rules , it may be granted that it is so to be understood , and that it is not to be imagined , that the synod meant it any otherwise . but for the other particular , that the children in covenant are only infants or children in minority , this is a limitation that needs further consideration , and will be spoken to afterward . whereas the synod , to prove the parents in question to be in covenant , alledgeth , that they were once in covenant , and never since discovenanted ; the former , because else they had not warrantably been baptized ; and the latter , because they have not in any way of god been discovenanted , cast out , or cut off from their covenant-relation . the reverend author in his answer hereunto , saith , that they are discovenanted , by not performing that whereunto they were engaged by the covenant , — for which he alledgeth rom. . . ans. . it seems then the covenant doth not only reach unto children during their minority , but also when they are become adult ; for else how could they when adult , be faulty in not performing that whereunto the covenant engageth ? can men be faulty for not performing covenant-engagements , when they are not comprehended in the covenant ? this seems not possible : therefore here seems to be a conc●ssion that the covenant reacheth further then to infancy or minority , and that they who were in covenant in their infancy by meanes of their parents covenanting for them , are also in that covenant when they are become adult . . nor is it clear , that m●ns not performing what the covenant requireth of them , doth forthwith discovenant them , if by being discovenanted , be meant their not being in that church-relation in which they were before , for god is wont to be patient , and long-suffering toward them that are in covenant with him , and to bear with them long afore be give them a bill of divorce , as it is said in nehem. . . many years didst thou forbear them ; and therefore it may seem more rigour then the word alloweth , to think or say , that such as were in covenant with god in their infancy or minority , are forthwith fallen out of that estate , if they do not , as soon as ever they become adult , perform what that covenant requireth . the long-suffering of god will not allow us so to judge , unless we had more clear warrant for such judgement : nor doth the text alledged , viz. rom. . prove any such thing ; but when it is there said , thy circumcision is made uncircumcision , the meaning is it shall not profit thee at all in such a state , as to eternal benefit : and so baptism may be said in such case to be no baptism ; and covenant , and church-relation , to be no covenant , no church-relation , i. e. not to yield any such profit in that estate : but yet if such should afterward be brought to repentance and new-obedience , would any say , that now such persons must be circumcised again , or baptized again , as if the former , in respect of the external act , were become null ? we suppose this could not be said justly , though in respect of any profit to their souls , their circumcision and baptism in their former estate was as none : and so we may say their covenant and church relation is as none , in respect of any spiritual saving benefit to their souls , if they perform not what the covenant bindes them unto ; and yet it can no more be said , that in respect of their church-relation , and external visible state , they are not in the church , or not in the covenant , then in the other particulars it can be said , that they are not circumcised , or not baptized . it is one thing to be in the covenant , and in the church , in respect of external state , and another thing to enjoy all the spiritual and eternal benefits of such a relation ; and though this latter be the portion of none but such as come to be truly regenerate , yet the other is , and so continues , the right of all that have once had it , untill in some way of god they be cut off from it , and so deprived thereof . the synod having said , that persons once in covenant are not broken off from it , according to scripture , sare for notorious sins , and incorrigibleness therein , which is not the case of these parents . the reverend author answereth , that if they break off themselves , by breaking the covenant which was sealed by baptism in their infancy or minority , they thereby deprive themselves of the benefits and priviledges of the covenant , and in such case are to be looked at like those in joh. . . ans. if by breaking off themselves , were meant no more , but that they do this meritoriously , i. e. that by their sin they deserve to be broken off , then it may be granted , that in this sense persons may ( though not that these do ) break off themselves from their covenant-relation ; and so also may persons that have been in full communion , even these by their sins may thus break off themselves , in which sense it is said , hos. . . o israel , thou hast destroyed thy self , i. e. that their sins were the procuring or meritorious cause of their destruction . but if hereby be meant , that the persons spoken of do break off themselves from their church-relation not onely meritoriously , but actually and really , then it may be justly questioned , whether church-members can thus break off themselves . sure israel did not thus destroy themselves , because all judgement and punishment is from the lord , whose work it is to kill , and make alive , to wound , and to heal , to create peace and evil ; so that there is no evil in the city , but the lord doth it , even the lord doth all these things , deut. . . isa. . . amos . . and therefore , if breaking off from church-estate , be an evil of punishment , men cannot in this sense break off themselves without god. besides , men cannot of themselves alone bring in themselves into the church , but there is requisite the consent of the church thereto ; and therefore if they cannot , of themselves alone , bring in themselves into the church , how is it credible that of themselves alone they should break themselves off from the church ? one would think , that such as cannot of themselves alone open the door for their entrance into the church , should no more be able to open it for their going out . and further , it seems not rational , that delinquents in the church should have it in their power , whether they will be censured with church-censure , or no ; and yet it must be so , if men that have been church-members may un-member themselves at their pleasure : for sure it is , church censures cannot be dispensed to any , but to such as are within the church , cor. . . if therefore a church-member , suppose one that hath been in full communion , shall commit the most enormous and scandalous wickedness that can be named ; yet if men may break off themselves from church-relation at their pleasure , such an one may have it in his choice whether he will be censured , or no : for , if he can but say , i am no member of your church , nor will be , but do fors●ke the church-relation in which i was , it shall then be in the power of such a notorious delinquent to bind the churches hands from censuring him , and so make the rule of christ to be of none effect , which saith , d●liver such a man to satan , cor. . which makes it very improbable , that men can of themselves break off themselves from the covenant and church-relation . as for them in ioh. . . of whom it is said , they went out from us , but they were not of us , &c. why may not this going o●t be understood of a local departure , or of a departing from the company , and communion of the saints , and such duties and acts of love as that church-relation requireth , rather then of a going out from the relation it self ? it is plain , men may of themselves ( if they have no more grace ) neglect the duties which their nearest relations require , and depart from them in respect of place and duties ; as david and iob were thus forsaken by their kindred , b●ethren , and mothers children , &c. psal. . . & . . iob . , . but doth this prove , that those brethren and mothers children , who thus neglected the duties which their relation required , were now no longer in the relation at all ? were these brethren and mothers children , now become mothers children no longer , nor brethren any longer , because now they were gone from the duties which they should have performed ? this doth not follow at all : how then doth it follow , that those who wen● out from the saints in respect of place and performance of duties , were thereby gone out from their church-relation ? they might by this departure of theirs deserve to be cut off by church-censure from their church-estate ; but that by this their departing they did cut off , or break off themselves from their church-estate , any otherwise then meritoriously , doth not appear . the synod having said , that the parents in question are in covenant , because the tenor of the covenant is to the faithful and their seed after them in their generations , gen. . . the reverend author in his answer hereto , pag. . saith , that the sea●ing of this covenant to the posterity of isaac and jacob by circumcision , was to continue throughout their generations , till the coming of christ ; and that the covenant is for the substance the same to us as it was to them , it being ●stablished by the blood of christ , luk. . , . heb. . . ans. here is then a consent to the synods argument , and the proof of it : for , if the covenant be for substance the same to us as it was to them , and was then to the faithful and their seed in their generations ; doth it not then follow , that these parents being the seed of the faithful , are hereby proved to be in the covenant ? this seems a plain granting of the synods saying , and of their proof of it . whereas the synod said , that the parents in q●estion are keepers of the covenant , because they are not fors●ker● , and rejecters of the god , and covenant of their fathers ; and alledged for this deut. . , . king. . — . chron. . . deu. . . the reverend author answereth , that keepers of the covenant , the parents in question are not ; for though they are not such forsakers , and rejecters of it , as they who are spoken of in the texts alledged ; yet besides that gross idolatry , there is a spiritual idolatry in scandalous covetousness , col. . . worldly-mindedness , whereby men forsake and reject god and his covenant to serve the world — and such may they be who answer all the terms of their fifth proposition , externally and visibly . ans. now herein is a marvellous thing , and not easie to be understood ; for the proposition saith expresly , that the persons spoken of are not scandalous in life ; and the answer is , that men may answer that , and all the other terms of the proposition externally , and visibly , and yet be guilty of scandalous cove●ousness ; and worldly-mindedness . now that men may be not scandalous in life , and yet guilty of scandalous covetousness ; guilty of scandalous covetousness and worldly-mindedness , and yet not scandalous in life ; these things seem contradictory and inconsistent , c●piat qui capere porest . it seems to us more rational to think and say , that though it be possible for men to be not scandalous in life , and yet to be guilty of worldly-mindedness , and other secret sins , and heart-wickednes● ; yet if they answer this and all the terms of the proposition , it seems not improbable but they may be truely godly , and sincere , sith they are not only not scandalous in life , but do give up themselves and their children to the lord , and subject themselves to the government of christ in his church ; and all this not ignorantly , but with understanding ; not sl●ghtly , but solemnly and publickly before the church : for , doth not all this make their sincerity hopeful ? we conceive it may . but that they should do all this , and in such manner as is said , and yet for all this to be so far from probability of grace , as to be forsakers and rej●cters of god and his covenant , to serve the vvorld , and this not onely secretly , and in heart , but so outwardly , and visibly , as to be scandalous therein ; how this can be , we must confess we do not understand . to that of the synod , where they say , that the parents in question do not put in any barre to hinder their children from baptism : and that this is plain from the words of the proposition , where they are described to be such as understand the doctrine of fai●h , &c. the reverend author in his answer , saith that notwithstanding this , the parents may put in a barre to hinder their children from bap●●sm , because a man may do and be all that is required in that proposition , and yet have no faith in christ , but be an unregenerate person — ans. it is one thing what a man may do , and yet be an unregenerate person really and in the sight of god , who knoweth the heart ; and another thing to be visibly so in the view of men , and in their rationall judgement : for ▪ it is granted , that a man may be and do outwardly and visibly all that the proposition mentioneth , yea and all that can be named further , and yet be really , and in the sight of god , an unregenerate person ; but yet this needs not to hinder his childe from baptism before the church : for such was the case of iudas , ananias and sapphira , simon magus , and others , who had a name to live , and yet were dead , rev. . . and yet for all this deadness and unregeneracy of theirs , the church did warrantably admit them and theirs to baptism , because visibly , and for ought that the church could discern , they were regenerate , sith de occultis non judicat ecclesia . but that a man may do , and be all that the proposition mentioneth , and yet be unregenerate , and without faith , not onely in the sight of god , but also visibly , and to the churches judgement ; this seems not very probable . even one of the particulars which the proposition mentioneth , viz. that of [ giving up themselves to the lord ] is spoken of by the apostle , as a token of the grace of god bestowed on the churches of macedonia , cor. . , . and when the synod mentioneth not onely this particular ▪ but five or six others in the proposition , must we for all this say , that men may do this , and all that is mentioned in that proposition , and yet have no grace of god bestowed on them , but be , even quoad nos , without all faith in christ , and in an unregenerate estate , and so put in a barre to hinder the baptism of their children ? we cannot but fear such judgement is more rigorous then charity will allow ; for the scripture tells us , that the tree is known by its fruit , mat. . & . and , that even a childe is known by his doings , whether his work be pure , and whether it be right , prov. . . and therefore when there are so many things for the parents in question , as are mentioned in the proposition , and nothing appearing to the contrary , we think such parents , having been members of the church in their minority , may justly be looked at as those who do not put in any barre to hinder their children from baptism . the reverend author further saith , pag. . though these parents are not scandalous in life , but solemnly own the covenant before the church , wherein they give up themselves and their children to the lord , and subject themselves to the government of christ in the church , yet all these may be affirmed of many who have a form of godliness , and deny the power thereof : from such paul warned timothy to turn away , tim. . . ans. but is it credible , that those in tim. . could answer all that is said in this proposition ? were they not scandalous in life , but did give up themselves to the lord , and subject themselves to the government of christ in his church ? what then means the many scandalous sins mentioned ver . , , . and what was this denying the power of godliness that is charged upon them ? it is most like it was such a denying as that in tit. . . where they are said to profess to know god , but by works to deny him , being abominable , disobedient , and to every good work reprobate ; and if so , then they were far from answering what is said of these parents : for , these parents are not scandalous in life ; but those the apostle speaks of are scandalous , and abominable for wickedness : these parents are commendable for sundry good things in them , and good duties done by them ; whereas those the apostle speaks of are not so , but disobedient , and to every good work reprobate . and when the apostle bids timothy , turn away from such ; doth not this simply that they were scandalous persons , and apparently wicked ? it is not likely that the apostle would else have commanded to turn from them , sith he himself did so lovingly converse with so many sorts of men , that he might gain them to the lord , cor. . , , &c. and gives commandment to receive the weak , rom. . . and to instruct with meekness such as oppose themselves , if god peradventure may give them repentance , &c. tim. . . which things do strongly argue , that those whom he commands in tim. . to turn away from , were not such as are described in the proposition , but far worse , being apparently and grosly wicked . for otherwise , how could the apostle in commanding to turn away from them , be cleared from direct contradicting both his own doctrine and his own practice ? but let those in tim. . whom he commands to turn away from , be understood of persons grosly vicious and scandalous , and then the appearance of contradiction is easily cleared , and so the parents in question cleared from being such persons , as must be turned away from . so much for defence of the first argument . but before the reverend author proceed to the next , he is something large in suggesting , that the elders do admit persons into membership , who are not qualified according to what is said in this proposition , so that if their doctrine in this matter were right , yet it is here pag. , . frequently intimated that their practice is otherwise . for , saith he , they cannot prove that all adult persons whom they admit into personal and immediate membership , are such as the proposition describeth : for , i demand , do they all understand the doctrine of faith ? what course do they take to know it ? are all the adult persons , whom they admit into membership , such as the proposition describes ? do they take a right course to know they are such ? that they are not scandalous in life , &c. ans. the proposition speaks of such as were admitted in minority , and therefore what is done towards these when they are adult , is not fitly called admitting into membership . for , as mr. cotton saith , it is one thing to enter into the church , ( for that agreeth to such as were sometime without ) another thing to speak of the infants of believers , who were never out of the church , and so cannot be said to enter into it . grounds and ends , &c. pag. , . and therefore it is a mistake to say or think of such elders , as concurred with the synod , that what is done by them towards the children of church-members , being now adult , is an admitting of them into membership , for this those children had afore they were adult , and therefore they are not now admitted into it . but to leave this : why should the reverend author suggest such a thing into the mindes of his readers , that the elders in their practice do differ from their doctrine , and teach one thing in the synod , and in their practice do contrary ? were it not more suitable to love ( which thinketh not evil , cor. . nor receiveth a reproach against ones neighbour , psal. . ) to endeavour to bring such elders , as are thus faulty ( if indeed there be any ) to repentance for their sailing therein , rather then to give occasion of mis-apprehensions against them , by writing thus of them ? it may well be called misapprehension ; for there are few of the elders , in comparison , that have yet put the children of church-members to a publick owning of the covenant , afore the time of their admission to full communion : and for those few that have done it , as this was not an admitting of them into membership , for that they had before ; so it would be hard to prove , that when this was done , that their infants might be baptized , which is the case the synod speaks of ; it would be hard ( we say ) to prove that the parents , who so did , were not qualified according as the fifth proposition describeth . and therefore to give occasion of other thoughts , not only against some few of the elders , but even of all , for what is here intimated , is not of some onely , but of all alike without difference ; what may be thought of this , we leave to the further consideration of the reverend author . to the second argument of the synod , that the children of the parents in question , are either children of the covenant , or strangers from the covenant ; either holy , or unclean ; either within the church , or without ; either such as have god for their god , or are without god in the world : but he that considers the proposition , will not affirm the latter concerning these children ; and the former being granted , infers their right to baptism . to this the reverend author answereth , that the more he considers the proposition , the less he findes in it to evince the former , and the more to conclude the latter . ans. now the latter is , that the children of the parents in question , are strangers from the covenant , not holy , but unclean , and without the church , and such as are without god in the world : and if the reverend author finde so much to conclude thus of the children of church-members , which members understand the doctrine of faith , and publickly assent thereto ; are not scandalous in life , but thus and further qualified , as in the proposition is expressed : if he finde much to conclude thus of these children , if he be had expressed any part thereof , it might have been taken into consideration ; but nothing being expressed , how can it ? a meer contrary affirmation , how can it go for a sufficient confutation ? as for that which he addeth , that if a man have no more then the proposition holds forth , he may be a stranger from the covenant , unclean , and without the church , &c. is not this spoken of grown persons , and therefore how is the synods argument hereby touched , which speaketh of little children ? nor is it easily proved , that a grown person , who was admitted in minority , and is now qualified as the proposition expresseth , that such a grown person is now a stranger from the covenant , and without the church , and without god in t●● world , and this is respect of his external state , or being in the church-visible ; we see not that this is proved at all . for , as for rom. . , , . which is here alledged , they are not all israel , which are of israel , &c. the text may prove , that they are not all elected of god , or sincere believers , who in regard of external relation are members of the visible church ; and this will be easily granted : but for membership in the church-visible , of which is our question , that text hath nothing in it at all to prove , that men who were members of this church in their minority , being now qualified as the synod expresseth , that these are now without such membership and externall state ; this is not proved at all by this text. for , if we shall so say , we shall make the apostle to contradict himself ; for , of these very persons and people , of whom ●e saith , they are not all israel , not all children , not all the children of god , &c. of these very persons and people he said , ver . . that they are israelites , to whom pertaineth the adoption , and the glory , and the covenants , and the giving of the law , and the service of god , and the promises ; that is , they were gods adopted children in regard of external covenant , and were members of the church-visible , and yet these were not all israel , that is , they were not all gods israel by election and spiritual regeneration . thus the apostles words are easily reconciled . but how shall they be reconciled , if the latter , as well as the former , be meant of the church-visible ? can they be israelites , and not israel , in the same respect ? can they in respect of external state be partakers of adoption , gods covenant and promises , &c. and so be church-members , and yet in regard of the same estate , be no church-members at all , nor in the church-covenant at all ? it is not easie to conceive how this can be ; and therefore the words in rom. . , , . are not fitly applied to prove that men , who were church-members in their minority , may be qualified as the fifth proposition expresseth , and yet now be strangers from the covenant , and without the church , in respect of their visible and externall state . whereas the synod for a third argument , saith , that to deny this proposition , would be . to stratten the grace of christ in the gospel-dispensation , and to make the church in new-testament-times , in worse case , relating to their children successively , then were the iews of old . . to render the iews , when they shall be called , in a worse condition then under the legal administration : contrary to jer. . . ezek . , . . to deny the application of the initiatory seal to such as regularly stand in the church and covenant , to whom the mosaical dispensation , nay the first institution appointed it to be applied , gen. . , . joh. . , . . to break the covenant , by denying the initiatory seal to those that are in covenant , gen. . , , . to this the reverend author answereth , that the contrary to all and every one of these is true : for , . it enlargeth the grace of christ in the gospel-dispensation , by shewing that christian churches are in a more spiritual and gracious frame then the iews of old were , under legal dispensation , &c. ans. suppose that christian churches be in a more spiritual and gracious frame then were the jews under the legal dispensation , yet if then such parents as the proposition describes , might have the initiatory seal applied to their infants , and now may not ; how can it be denied but that now the christian churches are in a worse case , relating to their children successively , then the church of the jews was ? for then such parents might have their children circumcised , but now they may not have them baptized , if this proposition be denied . and though the grace of christ may be now enlarged in other respects , yet in respect of children it is not enlarged , but str●●t●ed , by denying this proposition : except we shall say , that for parents to have the seal of the covenant applied to them and their children , is no testimony of gospel-grace at all , which cannot be said truly ; and therefore the synods argument in this particular stands good . . saith the reverend author , it declareth that the state of the iews , when they shall be called , will be far better then it was under legal dispensations — for under the law their light and holiness was defective — but when they shall be called , they shall have a farre greater measure of light and holiness then was to be found in former ages — ans. suppose this be granted , the question is not about their holiness and 〈◊〉 , but about their children , of whom it is evident , that if the parents were qualified as this proposition expresseth , those children might then be circumcised : and the texts alledged , viz. 〈◊〉 . . ezek. , . do shew , that when they shall be called , their children shall be in as good estate as formerly : but how can this be , if the parents may be qualified as is expressed , and yet may not have their children baptized ? is not this a rendring of them , in respect of their children , in a worse condition then formerly ? for the third particular , the reverend author answereth , that the dent●ll of the proposition doth not deny ( in sum ) what the synod saith it doth , but the contrary . ans. in what the synod here saith , there are three particulars contained or included : . that the mosaicall dispensation , and first institution of the initiatory seal , did appoint that seal to be applied to such as stood regularly in the church and covenant . . that the children in question d● regularly stand in the church and covenant . . that the deniall of the proposition , doth deny the application of the sea● to such as the mosaicall dispensation appointed it to be applied unto . of these particulars , the first cannot be denied ; for it is undeniably proved by the texts alledged , viz. gen. . , . joh . , . and the third particular is plain of it self : all the doubt therefore must be about the second , viz. whether the children in question do regularly stand in the church and covenant : but for this the synod hath given divers proofs in their first and second arguments ; which proofs we do not see taken off by what the reverend author hath said thereto . the fourth particular is answered by a plain deniall of what there the synod affirmeth , viz. that to deny the proposition , doth not break gods covenant , by denying the initiatory seal to those that are in covenant . ans. yet nothing can be more plain , then that denying circumcision to them that were in the covenant , was a breaking of gods covenant ; for it is expresly so called , gen. . . , . if therefore the children spoken of be in the covenant , how can the deniall of baptism to them be any other then is said ? and that they are in the covenant , the synod gave sundry proofs in their first and second arguments . so much for defence of the third argument . the fourth argument of the synod for confirming this fifth proposition , is this : c●nfederate visible believers , though but in the lowest degree such , are to have their children baptized : but the parents in question are such , at least in some degree . for , . charity may observe in them sundry positive arguments for it , witness the terms of the proposition , and nothing evident against it . to this the reverend author answereth , by denying the minor in the argument , and affirming the contrary to the first reason here mentioned ; viz. that all that is said in the proposition , is no sufficient ground for charity to account these parents to be believers in the least degree . ans. but if there be sundry positive arguments for charity thus to judge of them , and nothing evident to the contrary , as the synod argueth ; why then should we judge otherwise of them ? when such church-members , as were admitted in their minority , do understand the doctrine of faith , and publickly assent thereto , are not scandalous in life , but do solemnly own the covenant , wherein they give up themselves to the lord , &c. is all this nothing for charity to go upon in accounting them believers ? no , not in the least degree ? we conceive charity wants sufficient ground to judge otherwise . see more in defence of the first argument . but , saith the reverend author , let them show how faith was w●ough● , and how it work● in them , and then the church will have ground for their charitable judgement concerning their fitness , &c. ans. what proof is there , that except this be done , there can be no ground for the charitable judgement that is mentioned ? sure it is , there is no mention that such a thing was performed by the eunuch , nor required of him by philip , acts . and yet he was baptized upon profession of his faith in christ , though there is no mention , that to shew how his faith was wrought in him , was either done by him , or required of him : and therefore we see no reason to the contrary , but that when that is done which is mentioned in the proposition , there may be ground for charity to account them believers , though they come not up to what the reverend author requireth , of declaring how their faith was wrought in them . . the synod saith , the children of the godly , though qualified but as the persons in the proposition , are said to be faithfull , tit. . . the reverend author answereth , nor are the children of the godly , qualified but as in the proposition , said to be faithfull in tit. . so his answer is an express deniall of what the synod here saith . but to say the children in tit. . are not called faithfull , is directly to gainsay the text , which doth exp●esly so call them : and that these children that are called faithful in tit. . were qualified above what the proposition requireth , is not proved at all . for the text that calls them faithful , saith no more of them , but that they are not accused of riot , or unruly . and if this be sufficient for accounting them faithful ▪ those whom the proposition describeth may much more be so accounted ; because they are not only free from vnruliness and riot , but partakers of sundry other good qualifications , which do amount further . . whereas the synod saith , children of the covenant , as the parents in question are , have frequently the beginnings of grace wrought in them in younger years , at scripture and experience shew . instance joseph , samuel , &c. hence this sort of persons shewing nothing to the contrary , are in charity , or to ecclesiastical reputation , visible believers . the reverend author answereth , that the parents in question were indeed children of the covenant in their infancy or minority , but if when they are adult , they do not covenant for themselves and their seed , being fitly qualified , they cannot then be fi●ly called children of the covenant , but transgressors of the covenant , and breakers of it . ans. . if they be breakers of it , then sure they are comprehended in it : for , how can men break the covenant , wh●ch they are not in ? therefore , as it is here expresly confessed , that they were children of the covenant in their minori●y , so the same is by consequence confessed of them being adult ; for otherwise , how could they be then said to break the covenant ? . if the parents in question were children of the covenant in their infancy and minority , as the reverend author acknowledgeth they were , this suits well enough with the purpose and scope of the synod in this place , which is expresly said to be this , that such children have frequently the beginnings of grace wrought in them in their younger years ; and such as had grace begun in them in their younger years , why should not charity think it is there still , when nothing appears to the contrary ? for he that once begins that good work of grace , is not wont to forsake that work of his own hands , but to perfect it untill the day of christ , psal. . . phil. . . further , saith the reverend author , this argument is fall●cious , because it argues from some particulars , to infer a general affirmatively . some children of the covenant have had the beginnings of grace wrought in them in their younger years , therefore all persons of this sort , &c. if the reverend author had expressed the synods argument as they expressed it , it would not then have appeared so fallacious , as the alteration of their words may make it . for , whereas they said , children of the covenant have frequently the beginnings of grace wrought in them in their younger years , for which they produced eight or nine instances from scripture : all these instances , and that frequency , for proof of which they were alledged ; are now all left out , and in stead thereof it is rendred some children of the covenant , &c. and whereas the inference which the synod makes is thus expressed , viz. hence this sort of persons &c. now the term all , which was not in before , is expresly put in thus , all persons of this sort , &c. which alteration may indeed obscure the strength of the argument . but let it be reduced to what it first was , and then let the judicious reader consider whether it be fall●cious , or firme , whether there be weakness or weight in it . thus it was ; if children of the covenant have frequently the beginnings of grace wrought in them in their younger years , then this sort of persons shewing nothing to the contrary , are in charity , or to ecclesiastical reputation , visible believers : but so it is . ergo. the assumption here is manifestly proved by those many instances in scripture alledged and by experience ; and the consequence we hope is not fall●cious , but found and good : for if it be frequently thus , why should not charity believe it is thus in this sort of persons , where nothing appears to the contrary . . the synod having said , that they that are regularly in the church , ( as the parents in question be ) are visible saints in the account of scripture : for the church is in scripture ▪ account 〈◊〉 company of saints , cor. . . & . . the reverend author answereth , that both the assertion and the proof of it are to be denyed . the assertion is not true , that the parents in question are regularly in the church : infants , and children in minority of confederate believers , are in the church by their parents covenanting for them , cor. . . but parents are not so , till &c. ans. it is here again confessed , that infants and children in minority , are regularly in the church , but not so when they are adult and come to be parents : but of their continuing in the church , notwithstanding their coming to be adult , something hath been said before , and more may in the sixth argument , partic. . but whereas it is said , " the proof is to be denied , and is not apposite : we conceive , it cannot be denied to be very apposite for the purpose for which the synod doth alledge it , which is to p●ove , that they that are regularly in the church , are in scripture account visible saints ; and the words of the texts alledged , are so plain and apposi●e for this purpose , as we conceive nothing can be more . whether the parents in question be such , or no ; regularly in the church , and so saints , or not , is another thing , for which we conceive much hath and may be said : but the texts alledged were not produced by the synod for that purpose , and therefore though they be not plain for proof of that ▪ yet if they be plain and apt enough for the purpose for which they were produced by the synod , that may s●ffice , though they prove not this other , to which the reverend author doth apply them . . saith the synod , being in covenant and baptized , they have faith and repentance indefinitely given to them in the promise , and sealed up in baptism , deut. . . which continues valid , and so a valid testimony for them , while they do not rej●ct it . to this the reverend author in his answer makes mention of a distinction between the grace of the covenant , and the covenant of grace , in regard of externall means ; between the elect , in whom god works the grace promised in the covenant so powerfully , that they shall not reject it , and the rest who have the outward means of grace till they reject them , as did esau — and concludes , that such as reject the offers of grace , and living under the means of grace , do remain unbelievers , cannot be said to have faith and repentance undefinitely given to them in the promise . ans. but is there any proof of the contrary to what the synod affirmeth ? it seems none at all . for , when the synod saith , the covenant which promiseth faith and repentance is a valid testimony for them , while they do not reject it ; and the reverend author saith , that such as do reject the offers of grace , have not faith and repentance given to them in the promise : these are not contrary , nor at all inconsistent . for the synod never said nor meant , that the grace of faith and repentance are given by the covenant to them that are breakers of the covenant , and reject the offers of grace , and living under the means of grace , do still remain unbelievers : the synod never said , that the grace of faith and repentance are given to these by the promise ; but by that word , 〈◊〉 they do not reject it , do plainly imply the contrary . and therefore what the synod here saith , may be sound and good , for all that the reverend author alledgeth . if their doctrine here be not right , then it must be said , that the covenant , in which god promiseth to circumcise the hearts of his people , and of their seed , deut. . . is no promise that god will give them faith and repentance , nor any valid testimony for them that he will do it , though they for their parts do not reject it . and we suppose none will say this . what may be said of them , who when adult , are breakers of the covenant , and do reject the offers of grace , is one thing ; and what may be hoped and said of them who do not so reject , is another . the synod speaks of these latter , and the reverend author of the former ; and therefore the one cannot overthrow the other . the synod concludes this fourth argument , by adding as followeth ; viz. yet it doth not necessarily follow , that these persons are immediately fit for the lords supper ; the reason rendred , is , because though in a latitude of expression they are to be accounted believers , or in numero fidelium , as even infants in covenant are ; yet they may want that ability to examine themselves , and that speciall exercise of faith , which is requisite to that ordinance , as was said upon propos. . to this the reverend author saith , . if any man speak , let him speak as the oracles of god , pet. . . the new-testament no where alloweth that latitude of expression , to call men believers , who , &c. ans. though it be the duty of all , if they speak , to speak as the oracles of god , yet it doth not follow from thence , that none may have the term believers applied to them , except the term be found so applied in the new testament : for then the name trinity , sacrament , and many other , would be unlawful , as not being found in the new testament , no nor in the old ; yet we suppose the reverend author would not count the use of these terms unlawful . how often doth himself use the terms of par ratio , personall membership , mediate , and immediate members , and others , and yet they are terms not found in all the scripture : and therefore if the term believers be not found applied in the new testament to the persons spoken of , yet if the thing it self be found , and the matter be so delivered as becomes the oracles of god , that is , with such reverence , purity , &c. as is meet , we suppose that rule of speaking as the oracles of god , is not violated , though the term it self were not so used in the new testament , nor yet in the old. and for the thing it self , the synod hath given four or five arguments to prove , that the persons spoken of are visible believers ; which arguments we do not see satisfied by what the reverend author saith thereto . . the synod having said , that the persons spoken of may be counted in numero fidelium , as even infants in covenant are . the reverend author answereth , they cannot be so accounted , because infants are looked at onely in the parents covenant , being not capable of covenanting for themselves , as men are : so that there is not par ratio between them . ans. though infants be not capable of covenanting for themselves , as men are , yet their covenanting , or being in covenant , is not the thing here intended by the synod , but their being be●●evers , or in numero fi●●lium ; of which the reverend author saith nothing . but the thing the synod here intimateth , is this , that as even infa●ts in covenan● are counted believers , or in numero fi●elium , so may the parents spoken of . . whereas the synod saith , they may want that ability to examine themselves , and that speciall exercise of faith which is requisite to that ordinance . the reverend author answereth , that visible want of this ability , and of this exercise of faith , doth argue a visible want of that faith which is to be examined and exercised , and is a just barre to the admi●tance of such into immediate and personall church-membership , as well as to the lords supper . ans. admittance into membership is not here spoken of at all by the synod : for the persons spoken of , are counted by the synod to have been in the state of membership long afore now , even in their infancy or minority ; and therefore if the want of the ability mentioned , were a just barre to such admittance , yet this concerns not the persons spoken of . but is this which is here affirmed certain and clear , that want of the ability and exercise spoken of , doth argue want of the very being of faith ? may there not be the being and truth of that grace , even there where the exercise of it is much wanting ? plain it is , that our saviour blames his disciples , and peter , for the want of the exercise of faith , mat. . & . mark . luke . . and yet it were hard to say , that the being of faith was now wanting in them : for then we must say , either that faith once had , may afterwards be lost and gone , or else that these disciples before this time never had faith ; neither of which , we conceive , can be said truely . how plain is it , that some for their weakness and small ability in grace , and the exercise of it , are compared to a bruised r●ed , and to smoaking flax , mat. . and yet when it is said , christ will not break● such reed● , nor quench such flax , it appeareth thereby , that notwithstanding all this weakness , there may be the ●e●ng and truth of the thing in such souls . and for ability to examine themselves , cannot this be wanting ▪ but the want of the being of faith must be inferred thence ? what shall we then say to souls in such a case as heman's , psal. . who complains , that gods w●●th lay hard upon him , and that he was shut up , and could not come forth ; that god seemed to cast off his soul , and to hide his face from him ; that gods fierce w●ath went over him ; that gods terrours had cut him off ; and that hereby he was as distracted , and this even from his youth up ▪ no● can we think that in such case he was able to examine himself ? can distracted persons do so ? it seems not : and yet this heman was not without the gra●e of fa●●● for all this . and therefore we cannot say that wan● of ability to examine one's self , or of the ●●eciall exercise of faith , doth alwayes argue the want of that faith which is to be examined and ●xerci●ed : and therefore what the synod here saith may still stand , that ●he persons spoken ●f may be believers , and yet want that abi●ity to examine themselves , and that speciall exercise of faith which is requisite to that ordinance of the lords supper . so much for d●fence of the fourth argument for confirming the fifth proposition . the fifth argument of the synod for confirming this fifth proposition ▪ is this : that the deniall of baptism to the children in question , hath a dangerous tendency in it to irreligion and apostacy ; because to deny them to have any part in the lord , is the way to cause them to cease from fearing the lord ; witness josh. . , , . but to deny them , and so their children successively , to be in the church , or members of i● , and so to have right to baptism , is to deny them to have any part in the lord ; and therefore it tends to cause a ceasing from fearing the lord , and so tends to irreligion and apostacy . now what saith the reverend author to this in his reply ? that which he saith , is . the children in question , being children of parents who are not in full communion with the church , if such be denied to have any part in the lord , it is the degenerate parents fault , and not the churches . . the children in question are not children of the church , for the parents have cut off the entail of the covenant from themselves and their seed , by not confederating for themselves and theirs regularly . ans. . here then is an acknowledgement , that the children in question , when baptism and church-membership is denied them , ●re thereby acknowledged to have no part in the lord , and so to be 〈◊〉 a way of ceasing from fearing the lord : and is not this the very ●●ing affirmed by the synod ? . whereas the reverend author saith , that these children are now in such a state , through the fault of the degenerate parents , who do not regularly enter into f●ll communion : it hath been shewed before , that these parents , though not yet in fall communion , 〈…〉 in ●ny b●rr● 〈◊〉 the 〈…〉 baptism of their children : and indeed , when the parents are such as the prop●sition describeth , viz. not 〈…〉 , but understanding and 〈◊〉 to the doctrine of faith , and solemnly owning the covenant , and therein giving up themselves and h●●r children to the lord , &c. how , for all this , these parents should be the cause that their children have n● part in the lord , but do ce●s● from f●aring him ; how this can be , we confess we do not understand . can parents , by giving up themselves and their children to the lord , be notwithstanding the cause that their children have no part in the lord , though they be parents that 〈◊〉 , and be qualif●●● for it , as in the proposition is expressed ? is their giving up themselves and ●h●●r children to the lord , a cause to cut off their children from having any part in the lord ? or is their present unfitness for f●ll 〈◊〉 , a cause of such loss and misery though they be and do what is mentioned and all that the prop●s●●ion expresseth ? we see no sufficient ground to apprehend so : but when the parents are and d● a● is mentioned , we f●ar it is not they that are the cause of their childrens loss and misery expressed , but they rather , who deny their baptism and church-membership . . saith the reverend author , that this denial hath a dangerous tendency to irreligion and apostacy , is not proved by them , nor can be . ans. but if this denial do deny them to have any part in the lord , and so make them cease from fea●ing the lord , how can it be but as is said ? can men cease from fearing the lord , and from having any par● in h●● , and yet this not tend to apostacy and irreligion ? now the reverend author confesseth , that these children have no part in the lord , though he say it is through the parents faith ; though if the parents be so qualified as is said , it will be hard to prove that this comes to pass through their fault ; and then whence is it , but from them that causlesly deny their baptism and church-membership ? and if his deni●l do cause that they have no part in the lord , doth it not also cause their irreligion and ●postacy ? that text josh. . , . saith the reverend author , speaks nothing for their advantage in this case . ans. let it be considered for what purpose the synod alledgeth that text , and then it will appear that it speaks for them . now the purpose of the synod in producing that text , is plainly this , that to deny such children to have a part in the lord , is the way to make them cease from fearing the lord : and what can be more plainly spoken , then this is spoken in that text ? but why doth this text speak nothing for the advantage of the synod ? the reason that is given for this , is , because the men there spoken of , were members in ful● communion ; and their children , when they were grown up , were joyned in covenant by a solemn covenant every third year , deut. . , . so that they had a part in the lord successively , from which if they had been excluded causlesly , it might have caused their children to cease from fearing the lord. ans. suppose all this be so , this seems not to weaken the intent of the synod in producing this text , but to strengthen it : for , if denying them that have been in full communion to have any part in the lord , may cause even such to cease from fearing the lord , how much more may this be caused in them that have not yet had this full communion ? may not one think , that such as have enjoyed communion with god in all his ordinances , will not be so easily drawn away from fearing the lord , as those that never had such full communion ? and yet the reverend author doth acknowledge this might have befallen the former , and therefore how much more may this be found in the other , of whom the synod speaketh ? which things considered , it seems plain that when it is said , that text josh. . speaks nothing for the synods advantage in this case , that this saying will not hold . the synod having said , that the owning of the children of those that successively continue in covenant to be a part of the church , is far from being destructive to the purity and prosperity of the church , and religion therein , as some conceive . the reverend author answereth , that they who so conceive , have such grounds of that perswasion , as will not easily be removed , nor are so much as shaken by any thing said by the synod . ans. if such a perswasion , that the children of those who continue in covenant , are no part of the church , be a perswasion upon grounds that cannot be removed nor shaken ; then it must follow , that the church and the covenant , which is the formalis ratio of the church , comprehends not children , but parents onely , or grown persons : and then the antipoedobaptists have won the day ; for by what right can children be baptized , if they be not in the covenant , nor any part of the church , though their parents be ? sure to us it seems a well-grounded perswasion , that if the parents be and continue in covenant , the children of such are part of the church , and ought to be so owned , , and that this is no wayes destructive to the purity and prosperity of the church , and religion therein . if the parents did not continue in the covenant , then there might be some question , whether the children be part of the church : but it is plain , that the synod speaks of the children of those that continue in the covenant ; and if any think it to be a well-grounded perswasion , that the parents may continue in the covenant , and yet the children of such parents are no part of the church , we confess we see no sufficient grounds for such a perswasion . for , the reverend author doth here confess , that it is true , that the frame of the covenant runs to us , and to our seed after us in their generations , pag. . and if this be true , is it not then true , that if the parents continue in the covenant , the seed of such parents are also part of the church ? for how can they be said to be in the covenant , which is the constituting form of the church , and yet be no part of the church , which is constituted thereby . but , saith the reverend author , this must be understood and applied suita●ly to the different constitution of churches , under different administrations of the covenant , under the old-testament , and under the gospel . ans. let this be granted , yet as long as the thing it self is not denied , which must not be denied , for he confesseth it to be true , viz. that the covenant runs to us , and to our seed after us in their generations : so long as this is not denied , the d●fference in other things between the old-testament and the new , will not weaken our cause at all . for , though for constitution of churches , the church was then national , and now congregational ; and though the administration of the covenant was then under many types and ceremonies , which are now removed : and notwithstanding any other difference that can be named , yet if there be not this difference also , that the covenant did run to them , and their seed in their generations , but not to us , and our seed in like sort ; if this difference also be not asserted , we see not how it can be avoided , but even now as well as then , if the parents continue in covenant , the children do so also , and so are part of the church : and so what the synod affirmeth is gained . for it cannot be said , that though it was so then , yet it is not so now , except we shall deny what the reverend author confesseth to be true , that the frame of the covenant ( did not onely run to them and to their seed , but also ) run● to us , and our seed in their generations . and if this be true , then what the synod gathereth from it is true also , that god hath so framed his covenant , and the constitution of his church thereby , as to design a continuation and propagation of his kingdome therein , from one generation to another . for it must needs be so , if the covenant runs to us , and to our seed after us in their generations . whereas the synod saith , that to keep in the line , and under the influence and efficacy of this covenant of god , in the true way to the churches glory . the answer of the reverend author , in sum , is this , that it is so indeed , when there is a succession of faith made visible to the churches charitable judgement ; but not so , when such a membership is set u● in christian churches , whereby infants shall be baptized by right from such parents as are not in f●ll communion : for what influence and efficacy h●th the covenant upon such parents ? whereto the answer is , that if the parents be qualified as this proposition expresseth , there is manifest influence of the covenant upon them , though yet they be not come so far as to be fit for full communion . for , when they being admitted in minority , are now , when adult , not onely free from scandal in life , but also endowed with a competency of knowledge in the doctrine of faith , and solemnly assent thereto , and own the covenant , and therein give up themselves and their children to the lord ; we conceive all this doth import some influence and efficacy of the covenant upon them : but if for all this , they shall be disowned from having any part in the church and covenant of god , how then can that be denied which the synod here saith , that by this cutting off , and disavowing the covenant , sion is hindred from being an eternall excellency , and the joy of many generations ? for , whatever joy it may be to the first generation , yet if all that follow , though qualified as the proposition expresseth , be nevertheless denied to have any part in the covenant and church of god , till fit for full communion , we do not see how such following generations can be any great excellency or joy at all . the synod having said , that this progress of the covenant establisheth the church , deut. . . jer. . . and that therefore the contrary doth disestablish it . the reverend author answereth , that the argument is to be denied ; for it will not follow , that if god did establish the church of the iews by such a successive progress of the covenant , deut. . . therefore he doth so now , pag. . a. why doth it not follow , that if god did establish the church of the iews by a progress of the covenant , that therefore he doth so now ? is not that true , which the reverend author confesseth to be true , that the frame of the covenant runs to us , and our seed after us in their generations ? and is not that true also which the synod here saith , ( though the reverend author saith nothing to it ) that god was an holy god , and loved the purity and glory of the church in the old testament , when he went in this way of a successive progress of the covenant ? we suppose this cannot be denied ; and therefore if a progress of the covenant did establish the church then , why not so now ? shall we think that the holy god did not so regard the purity of his church in those times , and therefore did then establish the church in this way , which now he will not do , as being now more carefull of the purity of his church ? we fear that to say this , would be to the dishonour of gods holiness and glory . and plain it is , that it is the same kingdome of god , that is , the same church-estate for substance and kind● , which is taken from the jews , and given to the gentiles , mat. . . and therefore the gentiles are said to be fellow-he●rs , and of the same body with them , ephes. . . and therefore what should hinder , but that if a progress of the covenant was a means to establish the church , then , it may be the same in ●hese 〈◊〉 also ? the synod having said in the conclusion of their fifth argument for confirming this fifth proposition , that the more holy , reforming , and glorious that the ●●m●s are or shall be , the more eminently is a successive continuation , and propagation of the church therein designed , promised , and intended . and having for this alledged these scriptures , isa. . . & . . ezek. . — . psal. . — . ier. ▪ . the reverend author applies all these very texts to the church of the iews under the new jerusalem ; which church , he saith , must consist , for the matter of it , of elect and sincere believers onely , both they and their children successively to the end of the world : for which he alledgeth the texts afore-mentioned , pag. . ans. it is freely granted , that the church of the jews , when they shall be called and converted , shall be very holy and glorious ; and yet it may be questioned , whether that church shall have none in it , but onely elect and sincere believers , both they and their children to the end of the world . for , when christ shall come , the kingdome of heaven , that is to say , the church , though it be compared to virgins , in respect of much ecclesiastical purity , yet those virgins are some of them foolish virgins , that had no oyle in their vessels with their lamps , and so must have the door of the marriage-chamber shut against them , matth. . therefore they were not all sincere believers and elect : and therefore it may be a question , whether the church of the jews at that time will be so free from hypocrites , as is said . . if these scriptures , isa. . . & . . and the rest , do prove , that when the iews shall be called , it shall be with them as is said ; then what the synod here saith is gained , and stands good , viz. that in holy , reforming , and most glorious times , there shall be a continuation and propagation of the church from parents to children , from generation to generation ; which is the very thing which is here affirmed by the synod . . though the reverend author do here suggest this difference between that church of the jews under the new ierusalem , and the gentile churches ; that these latter shall have close hypocrites creeping into them , and the children of believers , by their degeneracy when adult , stopping the successive progress of the covenant , which in the church of the iews shall be otherwise : yet sith the scripture saith , that the nations of them that are saved , shall walk in the light of that new ierusalem , rev. . and that then the lord shall be king in all the earth ; and that there shall be one lord , and his name one , zech. . and that the name of the new ierusalem shall be written upon philadelphia , a church of the gentiles , rev. . it may seem upon these considerations and the like , that there will at that time be good conformity between the church of the jews , and gentile churches , and no such disproportion or difference , that in the one there should be a continuation and propagation of the church and covenant from parents and children successively , but in the other not so . we see no ground for believing such a difference , but for ought that doth yet appear , if there shall be such a glory in the one , as that there shall be a successive p●ogress of the covenant therein , there shall or may be the like in the gentile churches also . and to conceive any essential difference between either jews or gentiles then , and gentiles now , as to the frame of the covenant it self ( whatever difference there may be as to the measures of grace , &c. as is said in the synods result , p. . ) is a conception that we see no ground for in scripture . whereas the reverend author saith , pag. . that the children of church-members in this country are commonly known to be prof●n● , va●● , licentious , vicious , stubborn , proud , &c. and complains , that yet these are accepted into immediate personall membership . the answer is , . as before , that we think there is no accepting of members children , when adult , into membership , but an accepting of them unto full communion , when they are fit for it ; and an acknowled●ing of such and others to be members already , as having had it from their birth or minority , and having not since been regularly , in any way of god , cut off from the same . to call this an accepting of th●m into membership , we think is very improper . . if the children of church-members generally were commonly known to be so vicious and profane , as is said ; this were matter of great humiliation and grief to us all : but we hope it is too much to say so of the generality , or greatest part of them , there being better things appearing in many . . be it that they are so v●cious , or not , we think there is great reason that they should be carefully watched over by elders of churches , and all superiours , that so their corruptions and sins might be mortified , and they furthered to the attainment of that saving grace of god in christ jesus . and whereas the reverend author makes an objection , that if they be so vicious , they have the more need to be under the watch , discipline , and government of the church . and in answer thereto , saith , that it cannot rationally be expected that they will submit themselves thereto , but will disregard and slight the same ; and that acceptance with god , or blessing on such means cannot be expected , because god limits his blessing to his own appointments , p. , . the answer is , that it hath been proved afore by seven or eight arguments in propos. . that these children are by gods appointment under the watch , discipline , and government of the church ; which arguments have been formerly vindicated and cleared from what the reverend author hath said against the same : and therefore for what is here said , that the exercise of church-discipline towards such , cannot be expected to be accepted of god , or blessed by him , because it wants his appointment ; we know not how to entertain this saying , except there were some better proof for it , which here is but nakedly delivered , without any proof at all : and therefore the exercise of church-discipline towards the children spoken of , may be appointed of god , accepted of him , and blessed by him , for ought that is here said to the contrary . and whereas it is said , that it cannot rationally be expected , that such persons will submit themselves to church-discipline . though we know but little of the exercise of church-discipline towards such , yet experience doth testify , that to some it hath , by the blessing of god , been profitable , and that they have submitted to it , and been bettered by it . lastly , the reverend author did a little afore in this same page , pag. . mention the vigilancy and faithful care and endeavour of church-elders towards the children mentioned , as a way or means for conveying religion down to after-generations , which we for our parts conceive to be sound and good . but then how can this stand which is there said , that such persons are not under the watch , discipline and government of the church ? for , doth not the vigilancy of church-elders , import some kinde of church-watchfulness ? can there be such vigilancy , care and endeavours towards such as are no● under the watch of the church at all ? or can such vigilancy , care and endeavour of church-elders , be a means to convey religion down to after-generations , and yet church-watchfulness toward such be without acceptance with god , and without any blessed fruit , either to the church or to the persons spoken of ? it seems t●ese things do not well cohere : so much for defence of the fifth argument , for confirming this fifth proposition . the sixth argument which the synod here useth , is , because the parents in question are personal , immediate , and yet-continuing members of the church . . that they are personall members , or members in their own persons , they say appears , . because they are personally holy , cor. . . . are baptized in their own persons . . are personally under discipline . . are personally , by means of the covenant , in a visible state of salvation . . when they commit iniquity , they personally break the covenant , jer. . , . ezek. . therefore they are personally in it . to this the reverend author answereth , that three of these proofs belong onely to infants , and the other two to adult persons regularly admitted into church-membership : which therefore do not concern the parents in question : which two he saith are , . that they are personally under discipline , and liable to church-censures in their own persons . . that when they commit iniquity , they personally break the covenant . ans. let us then consider the particulars . for the first , that they are personally holy , according to cor. . . though this be meant , as the reverend author saith , that they are thus holy federally and relatively , yet it is , as he acknowledgeth , in their own persons ; and if so , doth it not then follow , that they are church-members in their own persons ? can persons be truly called holy , as in the text alledged , or an holy seed , as ezra . and yet not be members of the visible church ? whether this holiness be inherent , or only federal and relative , yet sith they are thus holy in their own persons , we conceive they must therefore be granted to be church-members in their own persons . and though they first received this holiness in their minority , yet for ought we see their persons are still partakers of it , until in some way of god they be cut off from the same : which the parents in question have not been , but being qualified as the proposition expresseth , are far from deserving any such matter . for the second , that they are baptized in their own persons ; though this be , as the reverend author saith , by and for their parents covenanting for them , they being uncapable of covenanting for themselves ; yet this being regularly done , how can it be avoided , but , as the synod saith , it is a divine testimony that they are in their own persons members of the church . for , we conceive , the lord hath not appointed baptism , the seal of membership , to be applied to such as are not members : and to say , they are not members in their own persons , but in their parents , would infer , that they should not have been baptized in their own persons , but in their parents , their parents receiving baptism for them ; which the reverend author , we are perswaded , is far from affirming . and therefore they being regularly baptized in their own persons , how can it be avoided but that they are church-members in their own persons , untill they be regularly cut off from the same ? for that other particular , that by meanes of the covenant they are personally in a visible state of salvation ; the reverend author saith nothing hereto , but onely repeats it with this addition or explanation , " while nothing appears to the contrary : which clause may be added , and yet the purpose of the synod in this particular not at all hindred thereby . for if the persons spoken of be in their own persons in a visible state of salvation , whi●● nothing appears to the contrary ; doth it not then follow , that so long they are visible church-members in their own persons : will any body say that they are saved in their parents , and not in their own persons ? the synod conceived that none would so say : and that therefore it could not be said , that they are not members in their own persons but in their parents : whereto the reverend author saith nothing . as for that clause , " while nothing appears to the contrary , let the terms of the proposition be considered , and we conceive it cannot rationally and charitably be denied , but that the persons spoken of , as they were in a state of salvation when infant , so they are so still for ought appears to the contrary . for the contrary cannot be evinced and evidenced against them , either by ignorance , or scandal , or forsaking the covenant , or any such thing , they being such as understand the doctrine of faith , and publickly assent thereto , not scandalous in life , but commendably further qualified , as is there expressed ; so that for ought that appears to the contrary , they are in a visible state of salvation , and consequently they are personally church-members , and so herein the purpose of the synod is gained . for the other two particulars , which the reverend author saith , do belong to adult persons regularly admitted into church-membership , and so do not concern the parents in question ; the one is , that they are personally under discipline , and liable to church-censures in their own persons . for answer to this , he refers to his examination of propos. . and we refer the reader to our defence of that proposition against what he there said . the other particular , which is the last here mentioned , viz. that when they commit iniquity , they personally break the covenant ; his answer to it is , that this is not proved concerning infants , nor can be . ans. suppose it cannot , yet if that be proved for which the synod brings it , why may not that suffice , though this other be not proved , to which the reverend author applies it ? plain it is that the synod neither spake nor meant this of infants , but of such as are now parents , and therefore past their infancy : and therefore if these parents , when they commit iniquity , do break the covenant , then the purpose of the synod is gained , though such a thing could not be affirmed of infants . but if proofs for this or that may not be accepted , because they are not sufficient for confirming some other things whereto they were neither alledged nor intended , let the judicious and impartial reader consider whether this be equal and fair , and whether arguments in such a way be sufficiently answered . for the particular in hand the synod argueth , that the parents in question are personally in the covenant , because when they commit iniquity , they personally break the covenant ; alledging for this , ier. . , . ezek. . where breaking of covenant is expresly charged upon the persons there spoken of . now doth not this prove the thing intended ? sure , if their committing iniquity be breaking of covenant , either such persons were in the covenant , or else we must say a man may be guilty of breach of covenant , when he was not in it . and that the committing iniquity by the persons spoken of , is a breaking of covenant , the reverend author doth more then once acknowledge and testify , pag. , , , , . it were too long to transcribe all the words that are to this purpose in the pages quoted , but , in sum , there is thus much there affirmed and taught , that the covenant in which children are comprehended in their minority , leaves them under engagement to duty and obedience , when they become adult , which if they do not accordingly perform , they are then transgressors of the covenant , and breakers of it . now if they be breakers of it , is it not thereby clear that they are comprehended in it ? and so what is here said by the synod stands good . thus of the first particular , that the parents in question are personal members . the second is , that they are immediate members , as to the essence of membership , ( i. e. that they themselves in their own persons are the immediate subjects of this adjunct of church-membership ) though they come to it by means of their parents covenanting . for proof whereof , one thing alledged by the synod , is that iohn . . , . where the children are said to have a part in the lord , ( to which church-membership is equivalent ) as well as the parents ; and nothing coming between this subject ( the children ) so as to sever it from the adjunct ( a part in the lord ) therefore they conclude , that the children are immediate subjects of church-membership , or immediate members . now what saith the reverend author unto this ? why , that which he saith , is , that though nothing come between to sever that adjunct from the subject , yet something comes between to bring that subject and adjunct together , viz. the parents covenanting for the childe : which if it did not come between , they would be severed , as they are in othe● children . ans. but what is there in this to overthrow the synods assertion ? do not they expresly grant , in terms as plain as can be spoken , and that more then once , that the children come to this adj●nct of church-membership by means of their parents covenanting ? see their words in their pag. . and therefore this can be no removing of what they have said , being nothing but the very same with that which they have said before . the question is not about the way or mean● of childrens membership , for it is freely yielded that in this respect it is mediate , that is , they come unto it by means of the parents covenanting ; but the question is about the ess●●●● , nature or k●m●e of their membership : whether in this respect it be not the same with the parents , and they as well as the parents the immediate subjects of it ; and the granting of the former , is no deniall of this other . if a parent have room or place in such or such an house , and his childe be there also , though he come thither in the parents arms , yet may it not be said that this childe hath a place and being in the house , as truly and as properly as the parent , although he came unto it by the parents means ? even so it is in the case in hand ; the childe comes to be in covenant , and so in the church , by the parents covenanting , yet now he is in the church , and in the covenant , and hath a room and place therein , as truly and as properly as the parent . again , the synod having said , that their visible ingraffing into christ the head , and so into the church his body , is sealed in baptism : and that in ingraffing , nothing comes between the graft and the stock ; their union is immediate . the reverend author answereth , that yet it will not follow that they are immediate members of the visible church . ans. and why will not this follow ? if their union with the church be ingraffing , and that in ingraffing , nothing comes between the g●●ft and the stock , doth it not then follow , that their union with the church is immediate , and they immediate members of it ? for , as for that which is here said , that this union is not properly , but metaphorically called ingraffing , because there is some similitude here , but similitudes do run on four feet : it sufficeth that they agree in the main point . ans. but how do they agree therein , if for all this in graffing there be something between the stock and them ? is it not a main point in ingraffing , that the union between the branch and the stock be immediate , and that nothing lye between them ? who knoweth not that if it be not so , but that some stock or stone , or something else be between them , so that their union be not immedi●te ; who knoweth not that in such case the ingr●ffing is spoiled , and the benefit of the branch interrupted , because its union with the stock is not immediate ? if then the union of members with the church be ●●graffing , how can it be avoided but it must be immediate , and so they be immediate members ? as for that which is here subjoyned , that infants and children in minority do partake of baptism and other priviledges , by means of their parents covenanting for them , but adult persons by their personall covenanting for themselves and their seed . this is nothing to the essence of their membership , but onely speaks to the way and mean● how they come to it , which is not the thing in question : for it may be granted , that children come to be members by their parents covenanting for them , and the parents by their own covenanting , and yet their membership , notwithstanding this different way of attaining it , may be one and the same for essence and kinde , and both have immediate conjunction with the church . for that where the synod saith , " that in deut. . . the children were personally and immediately part of the people of god , or members of the church of israel , as well as the parents . the answer of the reverend author is , that the text doth not prove it . ans. and yet the words are express and plain , that they did all stand before the lord , to enter into covenant with him , that he might establish them a people to himself ; and the persons of whom this is said , are not onely the men of israel , but also their wives , and their little ones : so that if the men of israel , and their wives , were personally and immediately members of that church , their little ones , for ought that appears , were so also : for they are all alike spoken of without difference . whereas the synod said , that to be in covenant , or to be a covenantee , is the formalis ratio of a church-member ; and the children being in the covenant , are therefore the immediate subjects of the formalis ratio of membership , and so immediate members . the answer of the reverend author is , that though to be in covenant be the formalis ratio of a church-member , yet it will not follow , that every covenantee doth immediately covenant for himself , nor that every member of the church is an immediate member , pag. . ans. for the one of these , viz. of covenanting immediately for themselves , the synod never said nor meant that little children did so covenant , nor inferred any such thing from their being in covenant , and so being partakers of the formalis ratio of church-membership ; but a little afore , and also in this very place do acknowledge , that one may come to be in covenant one way , and another in another : and therefore though children do not covenant immediately for themselves , yet what the synod inferreth from their being partakers of the formalis ratio of church-membership , is not at all infringed by this branch of the reply . but for the other , of being immediate members , why doth not this follow from their being partakers of the covenant , the formalis ratio of membership ? can one be partaker of the form , or formalis ratio of this or that , and yet not be immediately partaker of the effect , or thing formed , but something must first intervene and come between ? if the reasonable soul , and its conjunction with the body , be the formalis ratio of a man ; can there be this , and yet no man immediately , but something more must come between to make a man ? we suppose it cannot be denied but here is a man immediately , as being partaker of the formalis ratio of a man. and even so it may be said in the present case , that children being partakers of the covenant , the formalis ratio of church-members , they are therefore immediate members . the synod having said , that to act in covenant , is but the instrumentall means of membership , and yet children are not without this neither : for the act of the parent ( their publick person ) is accounted theirs — the reverend author answereth , that the parents acting in ●●v●n●n●ing for their infant - 〈◊〉 , hath been before proved to be the procreant cause of 〈…〉 , pag . ans. it was indeed before said , viz. pag . that he looked at believing confederating 〈◊〉 , not as the instrumentall , but as the procreant caus● ; as of the c●hil●● b●m● , by his generating of him , so also of his church-membership , by his confederating for him . this was s●ia indeed in the page mentioned , but that it was so proved , we cannot say ; if this word [ procreating ] be taken as it is expressed , not onely as contrad●sti●ct from the instrumentall cause , but as a deniall thereof , for so his expression runs . viz. not as the instrumentall , but as the procreant cause , &c. now that it hath been proved , that the parents act in covenanting is not the instrumentall cause , but the procreant of the childes membership , this indeed hath been said once and again but we do not see ●t proved at all . and indeed how can it ? for this procreant cause , sith it is not an instrumentall , must then be the principall-cause : and is this proved , that the parents act in covenanting is not the instrumen●●ll , but the principall cause of the childes membership ? what shall then become of gods institution in this matter ? if the parents act herein be such a procreant cause as is not instrumentall , then it must be the principall ; and then what place is there left for gods institution ? and how doth the reverend author agree with himself , who saith , th●s is the procreant cause , and that by gods institution , and yet is not the cause instrumentall ? if the parents act be the cause of the childs membership by gods institution , how can it be avoided but it must be instrumentall , as the synod said : but if it be so procreant , as not to be instrumentall , how then can it be by gods institution , as he saith it is . these things need reconciling . for our parts , we see no reason to the contrary , but that ▪ that of logicians is right , who place the procreant cause under the head of the ●ffi●i●n , and this act of the parents that is here spoken of , being not the principall effi●ent of the childs membership , must needs be the instrumentall , as the synod hath said ; and therefore such a procreant as is not instrumentall , nor yet principall , we confess we know not where to place it . besides , when the reverend author in pag. . makes this covenant-act of the parent to be the procreant cause of the childs membership , even as the paren● is the cause of the ch●l●●●em , by his generation of him ; doth not this plainly infer that which yet he denieth , that such a parent is the instrumental cause of the childs membership ? for , is any parent such a procreant cause of his childs being by gen●raci●n , as not to be instrumental under god therein ? how then are children said to be by the gift and blessing of god , psa. ● . . ●en●s . . . & . . & . . and the want of children even in married persons to be by gods restraining hand , and sh●tting up the w●●b ? gen. . . & . . & . . doth not this plainly shew , that parents are but instrumental under god in the begetting of children ? and therefore if the parent be the cause of the childs membership in like sort , as of the childs natural being by his generating of him , then it must be granted , that in this of his church-membership ▪ he is no otherwise a procreant cause of it , but as instrumental ; for in that of the childs natural being it is certainly so : and that of membe●ship being , as the reverend author saith , l●ke unto this other , therefore in this of the childs membership it is so also . moreover , i● this well hold , that the parent is such a procreant cause of the childs membership by confederating for him , as he is of the childs na●ur●l ●en● by 〈◊〉 ; then look as the child which the parent generates , is personally , immediately formally and actually a man for one of mankind as well as the parent ; so by the membership which the parents confederating procreates for him , he is a personal , immediate , formal and actual church-member . the synod , to shew that children are actual , complea● , and immediate members , asketh , what do they want hereunto ? is it covenan●-interest , which is the formalis ratio of membership ? no , they are in covenant . is it divine gran● , and institution , which is the principal efficient ? no , god hath clearly declared that he gra●ts them a portion in his church , and appoints them to be members thereof . is it an act of covenanting , which is the instrumental means ? no , they have this also reputatively by divine appointment , making the parent a publick person , and accounting them to covenant in his covenanting . the sum is , they want nothing that is requisite to complea● and immediate membership . now what saith the reverend author to this ? that which he saith , is this , that all that is here expressed , doth not supply what is wanting to invest little children with such membership . for , though they are in covenant , which is the formalis ratio of their membership , yet it is mediante parentum foedere , and so their membership is mediate . ans. but this speaks nothing to the nature and kind of their membership , but onely to the way and means of attaining it , which may be different from that of adult persons , and yet the thing be the same . if the chief captain obtain by a great sum to be a freeman of rome , and paul be free born , act. . . yet pauls freedome is either better then the other , or at least no worse ; and so it may be said of the church-membership of little children . there is wanting unto children in minority to make them such members , a personal fitness to act in covenant for themselves . ans. but this is nothing to the nature of their membership , but onely speaks of the way of attaining it by their own act . but shall we say that paul wanted something to make him a free roman , because he had no personal fitness nor ability to procure that freedome to himself by his own act , but onely was so born ? or shall we say that david and others mentioned in psal. . . isai. . . wanted something of compleat , proper and immediate interest in god , because they had their interest from their mothers womb , and did not attain it by their own personal act ? for our parts we dare not so say , and by like reason dare not deny , but that the interest of little children in the visible church , may be proper , compleat and immediate , though they have not come to it by their own act , but have had it from their minority or birth . for , to have god for their god is as great a blessing , as to be an actual and immediate member of the visible church ; and yet we see want of personall fitness to act for themselves , did not hinder from the one , and why then should it hinder from the other ? synod . a different manner and means of conveying the covenant to us , or of making us members , doth not make a different sort of members ; we are as truly , personally and immediately members of the body of fallen mankind , and by nature heirs of the condemnation pertaining thereto , as adam was , though he came to ●e so by his own pers●n●l act , and we by the act of our publick person , pag. . . the reverend author in his answer hereto grants , that in the case of adam it is so , as is said ; but , saith he , this doth not suit the the case of i●fan●s in question . for , . adam stood as a publick person for all mankind ; no parent is so for all his posterity , but for his infants and children in minority . . adams covenant was onely with the lord , and not with any church , as the covenant of confederate parents is . . the parents breaking the covenant doth not make his children heirs of condemnation , as adams did all mankind , pag. . . for answer whereto , we may remember what himself did formerly express , that similitudes do not run on four feet ; if they agree in the main point that may suff●● , though in other things they d●ffer . if therefore there were these three differences , and as many more , between the cases alledged , yet where is there any difference in the main point ? are not we as truely , personally , and immediately members of the body of fallen mankinde , as adam was ? this the reverend author doth not deny , but in plain words doth grant it : and is not then the purpose of the synod , in alledging this instance , clearly gained ? doth it not plainly appear thereby , that a different way and means of being in covenant , doth not make a different sort of membership ? adam was a member of fallen mankinde , and so are we , though he came to be so by his own personal act , and we by him , or by his act for us ? which doth clearly shew what the synod saith , that a different way and means of being members , doth not alter the nature and kinde of membership ; which we see doth hold as touching being a member of fallen mankinde , and we see no reason but it may also hold as touching being a member of a visible church . there is not any to be accounted a publick person , as adam was , but onely iesus christ for all that are in him , rom. . , to . pag. . ans. yet it is evident , though jesus christ was a publick person for all that are in him , as adam was , yet in the number of persons there is difference ; adam standing for all mankinde , and christ standing onely for his redeemed , the elect. now if christ may be truely called a publick person for all his , as adam was , though adam was for them that were farre more in number ; why may not then a consederating parent be counted a publick person for his children though they be farre less in number then the other ? but herein the cases seem parallel ; adam for all in him , christ jesus for all in him , and the confederating parent for all in him . we see not how this can justly be denied by the reverend author , si●h he calls these parents " v●dertakers for their children , pag. . and again , pag. . and such undertakers , that the children are bound by their parents acting to perform that covenant , when they shall become capable : which seems to us to be the same , or as much as is meant , when they are called publick persons for their children . another similitude used by the synod to illustrate the thing in question , is , from a prince giving lands to a man and his heirs successively while they continue loyall ; in which case the following heir is a true and immediate owner of that land , and may be personally disinherited , if d●sloyall , as well as his father before him . to this the answer is , that this similitude doth not sort the case in question ; f●r , as for infants , they cannot be visibly disl●yall , and adult persons not regularly joyned to the church , have cut off the entail of the covenant from themselves and their posterity by their personall disloyalty . ans. but for all this , the similitude may suit the case in question , though the reverend author say it doth not . for , as the following heir is an immediate owner of that land , till for disloyalty he be disinherited ; so the following children are immediate church-members , till some of them for their sin be cut off from their membership . is not here plain suitableness in the similitude ? we conceive it is apparent and manifest . for , if infants cannot be disl●yal , and if adult persons be cut off for disloyalty , is it not manifest , that both are immediate owners till they be cut off ? which is the thing the synod affirms . concerning infants , it seems they are such true and immediate owners of church-membership , as that they cannot be cut off therefrom , because they cannot be so disloyal as to deserve such a thing : and for the adult persons , if the entaile of the covenant be cut off from them and their posterity by their personal disloyalty ; doth not this clearly shew , that they were truely and immediately in the covenant , till their disloyalty cut them off ? and so the similitude stands suitable and good for the purpose for which the synod brings it . but as for this " cutting off the entail of the covenant , which is here spoken of ; we must confess we do not see how such a thing can justly be charged upon the persons spoken of in this proposition : for , they understand the doctrine of faith , and give their assent thereto ; ●hey are not scandalous in life , they solemnly own the covenant , and therein give up themselves and their children to the lord : and is this such disloyalty , as to be a cutting off the covenant and enta●l of it ? we think it were hard to prove such a thing , and do fear that charity will not allow to affirm it . nor that which is here said in this pag. . that nothing is given to them and theirs by the covenant , wh●●h ●hey presume to usurp without warrant from god. for , . by the covenant god gives himself to be a god to his people , and to their seed in their generations , gen. . and shall we say this is nothing ? god is almighty , and all-sufficient , and is it nothing to have such a god to be a god to us , and to our seed ? . and when the persons in question are such as were regularly in covenant in their infan●● , by means of their parents covenanting for them , as the reverend author doth acknowledge , how can their owning this covenant , when they become adult , be justly counted a presuming to usurp the covenant without warrant from god ? we reade of them that are blamed , and that justly , for forsak●ng the covenant which god made with their fathers , deut. . . judg. . . but that owning this covenant should be a forsaking of it , and an usurping of it without warrant from god , and a presuming ▪ we do not see how this can be proved . to some indeed the lord saith , what hast thou to do to take my covenant in thy mo●th ? psal . but doth the lord say this to such as were qualified as in this fifth proposition ? the contrary is most clear : for these in this psal. . are expresly called wicked , such as did hate to be instructed and reformed , were culpable for consenting with thieves , partaking with adulterers , slandering , and all evil speaking , &c. whereas the persons in question are not culpable for any such thing , being expresly said to be not scandalous in life ; but on the contrary furnished with many good and commendable qualifications , and were regularly admitted into the covenant in their minority : and therefore being so unl●ke the persons that are blamed for tak●ng g●ds covenant into their mouth , we see no ground to say they have 〈◊〉 off the entail of the covenant by their disloyalty , and that nothing is given to them and theirs by it , but that they presume to usurp it without wa●rant from god : we see no warrant from god so to say or think of such persons . a member ( saith the synod ) is one that according to rule , or divine institution , is within the visible church . they say true , saith the reverend author : but that refutes nothing that i have said concerning mediate and immediate members , for both are within the church , though both have not full communion with the church in all ordinances . ans. the synod never said , that all that are within the church have such full communion , and therefore this is nothing against them : but if all members be within the church according to divine institution , how can it be avoided but they are all immediate members of the church ? for , if they be all within the church , then there is nothing as a medium between the church and them , or any of them , and so they are all immediate members , as the synod saith . whether all have full communion , is one thing , and whether all be immediate members , is another ; and the denying of the former , is no infringing of the latter . the synod having mentioned an objection , that if children be compleat and immediate members as their parents , they shall then immediately have all church-priviledges as their parents have : and making this answer , that it followeth not ; all priviledges that belong to members as such , do belong to the children as well as the parents : but all priviledges do not so . a member as such ( or all members ) may not partake of all priviledges , but they are to make progress both in memberly duties and priviledges , as their age , capacity , and qualifications do fit them for the same . to this the reverend author auswereth , that their answer to the objection is insufficient ; for the best members have need to make prōgress in memberly duties and qualifications , yet all have that communion that suits their membership : infants in baptism , &c. and adult persons in the seals , voting , &c. pag. , . ans. by this it seems the difference lies here , that whereas some church-members have communion in all church-priviledges , and others not in all , but onely in some ; the synod apprehends the reason of this difference to be , because some are yet defective in qualifications , and fitness for such full communion , though not wanting compleat and immediate membership : but the reverend author makes the reason of the difference to be from the different kinde of membership , the one sort being onely mediate members , and the other immediate . all have that communion for which they are qualified , saith the synod : all have that communion which suits their membership , saith the reverend author . for clearing of which point , it may not be a miss to consider of other societies , and how it is in them ; as that of the family , and of the civil state : in both which it is clear , that all have not like communion in priviledges ; but who can say that this ariseth from their different membership in the societies of which they are ? or how can it be denied , but that this ariseth from their different qualifications ? an infant , an idiot , one distracted , or distempered with frenzy , &c. such cannot enjoy all priviledges in the family , or civil state , as others may ; and the reason is , because they are not fitly qualified : but who can say they are not compleat , and proper , and immediate members of the family or state , as well as others ? he that doth injury to such an one , doth injury to one that is as truely and properly a member of the society , as those that are better qualified ; and such injuries are punishable with death , or otherwise , as the nature of the offence doth require , as being injuries to one that is truely and properly a personal and immediate subject and member of the common-wealth , though there might be many other subjects better qualified ? in like sort in church-society , some may enjoy more full com●union then others , and yet not as being more truely partakers of proper personal , and immediate membership , but because they are better qualified . thus of the second particular , that the parents in question are immediate members . the third is , that their membership still continues in adult age , and ceaseth not with their infancy ; . because in scripture persons are broken off onely for notorious sin , or incorrigible in penitency and unbelief , not for growing up to adult age , rom. . . the reverend author answereth , that this reason doth not prove , that the membership of all baptized in infancy continues in adult age . ans. nor did the synod so say , nor produce that reason and scripture for such purpose ; but their purpose therein was this , viz. to prove that the parents in question do still continue members : which may be true , though all 〈◊〉 are baptized in infancy do not . for thus their argument lies : if persons be not broken off but for notorious sin , or incorrigible in penitency and unbelief ; then the parents in question are not broken off , but do still continue members : for any such notorious sin ▪ &c. cannot justly be charged upon them , witness the terms of the proposition . to this purpose is this reason alledged by the synod ; and therefore though the membership of ●ll baptized in infancy do not continue in adult age , the synod loseth nothing thereby , a● having never affirmed any such thing . but why doth not this reason and text prove the thing intended by the synod ? the reverend author gives this reason ; ●ecause that text rom. . . spe●k onely of such as have been received into membership by their personal faith , and covenanting with the church visibly . a. the text clearly speaks of the people or nation of the iews , of whom it is said , that they were a disobedient and gainsaying people , rom. . ● . that they , as concerning the gospel , were enemies , rom. . . that they killed the lord iesus , and their own prophets , and persecuted the ap●stles , pleased not god , and were contrary to all men , &c. thess. . , . and shall we say , that notwithstanding all this , they were received into compleat and immediate membership by their personal faith , & c ? besides , it is not very credible , that all the members of the jewish church were received into compleat and immediate membership by their personal faith , if that be true which the reverend author said , pag. . that that church was to be propagated and continued by natu●●● generation in a lineall descent from abraham , by isaac and jacob , t●ll the coming of christ ; and that there was no ordinance for casting out their members for sins against the morall law , as there is under the gospel , pag. . which things ( if true ) do import , that visible faith was not the thing looked for in receiving the members of that church , nor in continuing of them , but their natural generation , and lineal d●sc●n● , , might suffice : how then can that stand which is here said , that the persons sp●k●n of in r●m . . . were such as were received into membership 〈…〉 , when as that text speaks of the members of the church of the jews , who ( if the reverend authors apprehension be right ) were not so received , but by lineal succession , by natural generation ; christian churches differing from that church , and being of another sort , as being to be propagated and continued by regeneration , made visible by a right confession , and profession of faith , pag. . the sum is this , in the one place he makes it peculiar to christian churches to be propagated by regeneration , and 〈◊〉 ●●sibly prof●●●ed ; and that in the church of the jews it was othe●wise : and in the other place , which certainly speaks of the church of the jews , he saith it speaks of emb●●● received by ●her personal faith ▪ wherein there seems to be a rep●gnancy . our 〈◊〉 of adult persons that break off themselves from the covenant by pr●●h●ne neglect or contempt of the ordinances , or uns●table conve●s●a●● , pag. . ans. then the parents in question are not broken off at all , but their membersh●p 〈◊〉 continues , as the synod saith ; for the terms of the proposition will not suffer such prophaneness and ●n empt of o●●●nances , and 〈◊〉 conversation , to be justly charged upon them ; and if there be the causes for which men are 〈◊〉 off , is not then this reason of the synod plainly confirmed and made good ? for they argue , that the persons in question do still continue members , because 〈…〉 notorious sin , impenitency , incorrigibleness , and the like ; and here it is said , that men are broken off by pro●h●●eness , contempt of the ordinances , and unsuitable conversation ; which sayings are in effect the same , or little different , and both of them do witness that the persons spoken of are not broken off , as not being guilty of any such wickedness or misdemeanours . who ever said that any were broken off for growing up to adult age ? ans. if the persons described in the proposition be said to be broken off , what is this l●ss then the thing that is so disowned ? it cannot be denyed but they were once within the church , and it cannot be said that they are broken off for any scandal in their conversation ; but coming up to the terms in the proposition are far from such evil , and on the contrary are furnished with many good and commendable qualifications , as knowledge , profession , s●●jection to christs government , owning the covenant , and the like . now if notwithstanding all this , they be declared to be no members of the church , but broken off from it , though they were once in it ; what is this less then to say , they are broken off by growing up to adult age ? and see reply of the reverend author to this argument , p. . . saith the synod , the iews children circumcised did not cease to be members by growing up , but continued in the church , and were by vertue of their membership received in infancy , bound unto various duties , and in special to those solemn personal professions that pertained to adult members , not as then entring into a new membership , but as making a progress in memberly duties , deut. . — . & . , . gal. . . to this the answer is , . that the iewes children circumcised were bound to various duties , and to those solemn professions mentioned , is clear enough by the texts alledged , and sundry other : whereunto i willingly adde , that baptisme also bindeth the infant-seed of confederates to various gospel-duties , and especially this of using all mean , &c. ans. and do not both these shew that which the synod expresseth , that children do not cease to be members by growing up , but do still continue in the church ? for if it was so with the jews children , is it not also so with ours , according to the synods arguing ? and if by vertue of that membership received in infancy , the circumcised then did , and the baptized now do stand bound to various duties when adult , how can it be avoided , but that membership received in infancy then did , and now doth continue in adult age ? for , when & as long as one stands bound by a covenant , then and so long that covenant must needs remain in being , for otherwise how could one stand bound by it ? can one be bound by that which is not in being ? one would think this were not possible . therefore by this being bound by the covenant and membership received in infancy , to various duties when adult , it appeareth , that the covenant and membership received in infancy doth still continue in adult age , and so the purpose of the synod is gained . but . saith the reverend author , it is not proved by those texts , that w●●n they were adult they did not enter into a new membership ; rather the contrary appears by deut. . , . ans. if so , then they did every third year enter into a new membership : for the reverend author conceives that what is said to be done in deut. , . was done every third year , as before ● . . but who knows not that the same persons or people may many a time enter into covenant , or renew their covenant with god , and yet not thereby enter into so many new memberships ? it seems by psal. . . where it is said , they have made a covenant with me by sacrifice , that so oft as sacrifice was offered , so oft there was a covenant made between god and them ; and yet it will not follow , that at every time of sacrificing there was an entring into a new membership : it may suffice to say , as the synod doth , that at all such times there was a prog●●s● in memberly duties . but why should we think that the covenant in deut. . was entring into a new membership ? the reason rendred , is this ; because they entred into the covenant personally and immediately , not in and by their parents , as they did in infancy , gen. . . and if covenanting be the form of church-membership , then a different form of covenanting , makes a different kinde of membership ; mediate and immediate covenanting , makes mediate and immediate members . ans. but is this certain , that a different way of covenanting , makes a different kinde of membership ? in gen. . there is covenanting by divi●ing the he●fe● , the go● , &c. in the midst , and passing between the pieces or parts ▪ and so in jer. . in gen. . there is covenanting by silence , and falling upon the face : in nehem. . . there is covenanting by writing and sealing of it ; in chron. . by swearing with a loud voice , and by engaging , that ●hosoever should not do as is there promised , should be put to death . here we see are various wayes of covenanting ; but shall we say that these do infer divers kinds of membership ? then it would follow , that if the same persons or people should divers times enter into covenant , or renew their covenant , and this sometimes in one of these wayes , and sometimes in another , if a different form of covenanting do make a different kind of membership , it would follow , that the same persons and people might many times over , again and again enter into a new kin● of membership ; which we suppose none will affirm , and therefore this that is here said will not hold : the thing for essence and kind may be the same , when the way and manner of doing may be various . moreover , covenanting taken for our act in making or renewing the covenant , is not the form of membership ( this is but the instrumental efficient ) but covenant-interest , or to be in covenant , is the formalis ratio of membership ( that is it which the synod affirms pag. . ) and that is the immediate , actual , and proper portion of the children , as well as of the parents . the third argument of the synod , is , from the relation of born servants and subjects , by which the scripture s●●s forth the state of children in the church , levit. , . ezek. . . which relations ( as all men know ) do no●●eas● with infancy , but do continue in adult age : and ●ince it also follows , that one special end of membership received in infancy , is to leave persons under engagement to service and subjection to christ in his church when grow● up , &c. pag. , . the answer to this , is , that the one of these texts is typical , figuring the t●●e of grace , whereby now christ hath freed us from the servitude of sin and satan , &c. the other text is a prophecy of the calling of the elect nation of the iews , and of the state of the church under the new ierusalem : and therefore these do neither of them suit the thing in question . ans. but for the present nothing appears to the contrary , but they may be suitable ; yet , if the thing it self for which those texts are alledged , be sound and good , the inference which the synod makes is so also , though the texts were not so apt . for , if the children in the church be in state as born servants and subjects to christ , then this state and relation , and so their membership , doth not cease with infancy , but continues in adult age . and we hope the reverend author will not deny , but for state they are as born servants , and subjects to christ , though he thinks the texts quoted are not apt proofs for it ; but if the thing be not denied , the argument of the synod stands good for the continuance of their membership . grant them to be in the state of born servants and subjects in their infancy , and then it must be granted , that this state continueth when they are adult , and so their membership doth not cease with their infancy : deny that their membership continueth when adult , and then it must be said , either that their state in infancy is not as born servants and subjects , or that such relations do cease with infancy . but for the reverend author , he expresly grants , that one special end of membership received in infancy , is to leave persons under engagement to service and subjection to christ in his church when grown up , when they are fittest for it , and have most need of it , pag . which is the very same that is here affirmed by the synod : and doth not that hence follow which the synod inferreth , that therefore their membership did not cease with infancy , but doth still continue ? it seems to follow unavoidably : for how can they when adult , or grown up , be under engagement to service and subjection , as the end of membership received in infancy , if that membership do not still continue , but together with their infancy be now past and gone ? if they be still under engagement , then their covenant doth still continue , and consequently their membership . yet , when all this is done , neither can the parents nor the church give grace unto the children , that when they become adult they may be spiritually fit for personal and immediate membership : and to bring them into it without such fitness visibly , is to prophane the ordinances , and to pollute the lords sanctuary , pag . ans. it is true , none can give grace but god , who is the god of all grace : but for bringing the adult persons spoken of into membership , we conceive there is no such thing here intended by the synod , nor can be spoken of in any propriety of speech concerning the persons in question ; they being such as were members from their infancy , and are accounted by the synod still to continue members now when adult , and therefore there is no bringing of them into membership . that which is here spoken of , were more aptly called an acknowledging of them to be members : and how the acknowledging of such persons , as the proposition describes , to be and continue members , can be judged a prophanation of the ordinances , or a polluting of the lords sanctuary , we confess we do not understand : for we know they were brought into membership by gods own institution and appointment , and we do not know that they have in any way of god been put from it ; nor , considering the term in the proposition , can be justly judged to deserve any such matter , but the contrary : and therefore the acknowledging of them to be members , can be no such prophaning and polluting , as is spoken of . the fourth argument of the synod , to shew that the persons spoken of do still continue members , is this : because there is no ordinary way of cessation of membership , but by death , dismission , excommunication , or dissolution of the society ; none of which is the case of the persons in question . whereto the reverend author answereth , that the ennumeration is insufficient ; there is another ordinary way , i. e. desertion . thus esau's membership ceased ; and so many theirs , who being adult , regard not to joyn with the church by their personal and immediate confederation , &c. and if forsaking the church may suffice to deprive those of church-priviledges , who were before in personal and immediate church-fell●wship , joh. . . how much more those who never had such membership ? &c. what can the mediate membership which such had in infancy , advantage them for continuing in membership , when being adult they live in the breach of that covenant , whereby they were left under engagement in their infancy unto service and subjection to christ in the church ? ans. if the ennumeration were not sufficient , but that that of desertion ▪ were needful to be added , yet this would not avail to prove the contrary to what the synod here saith , but the membership of the persons in question may still continue for all this : for , being qualified as the proposition expresseth , they are farre from being guilty of such desertion , or forsaking of the church of god ; and therefore it is not this , though it were added to the particulars in the argument , that can hinder their still continuing to be members . nor can they be justly charged as guilty of such things as are here expressed , viz. not regarding to joyn with the church by their personal and immediate confederation , nor to fit themselves for it , but to despise the church of god , not desiring nor endeavouring after spiritual fitness , but living in the breach of that covenant , &c. these things we cannot see how they can justly be imputed to the persons qualified as the proposition expresseth , but they may still continue to be members , as not being culpable of any such things , as these here mentioned , to un-member them . here also it may be observed , how the reverend author doth again acknowledge , that the sins of adult persons , who were admitted in infancy , are a breach of that covenant in which they were then comprehended , and which left them under engagement unto service and subjection to christ in the church : which sheweth that they are still in the covenant , though now they be adult ; for otherwise , how could their sins be breach of covenant ? and if they be still in covenant , then they still continue members , and their membership did not cease with their infancy , which is the thing here affirmed by the synod . for that of esau , whose membership is said to cease by desertion the reverend author may remember , that he hath more then one told us of invalidity of proofs from the old testaments for things 〈◊〉 gospel-times : which proofs , though we cannot say but they may b● valid , yet why should himself use them against us , ( for this of esau is from the old testament ) if his apprehension be right , that such proofs are not valid ? but for the thing it self , of the cessation of membership by a mans own act , this hath been spoken unto before , pag. . . in defence of the first argument for this fifth proposition : where also was considered that text ioh. . . which is here alledged again : to which former place we refer the reader ; onely adding thus much , that the cessation of membersip which the synod here speaks of , is such cessation as is ordinary , but if esau ' ▪ were by his own act alone , why may we not say that there was something in it extraordinary ? though it is not any where said that it was by his own act : if any afffirm that it was , it stands upon them to prove it , for affirmanti incumbit probatie . and though it be not said that the church had any hand in it , yet negative arguments in matter of fact are not cogent , though in matters of faith they be : but for matter of fact , we know many things were done that are not written , ioh. . . & . . and therefore though this be not written , that there was any church-proceedings against esau for his departing from the church , and therefore we do not say there was ; yet they that say there was not , must prove there was not , because the meer not mentioning that there was , is no sufficient proof that there was not : and for any further proof , that esau's falling off from his church-membership was by his own act alone ; any further proof for this , then meerly the not expressing of any church-proceedings against him , we finde none . the fifth argument of the synod for confirming this particular , that the persons spoken of do still continue members , is this : because otherwise a person admitted a member , and sealed by baptism , not cast out , nor deserving so to be , may ( the church whereof he was , still remaining ) become a non-member , out of the church , and of the unclean world ; which the scripture acknowledgeth not . whereto the answer in sum is this , that as a freemans childe of some corporation is free-born , and may in his minority trade under his father ; yet being grown up , must personally enter into the common engagement of freemen , or else may not trade for himself , but is a non-freeman by his own default , and hath lost his freedom by not entring in his own person into the common engagement , &c. so , and much more justly , an adult person makes himself to become a non-member by not covenanting personally as his father did . ans. it may be justly questioned , whether this comparison do suit the case in hand . for , . all the priviledge of this freemans childe that is mentioned , is this , that he may in his minority trade under his father ; which priviledge doth not at all arise from his being the childe of a freeman ; and the reason is , because one that is not a childe , but onely a servant of such a freeman , may trade under the freeman ▪ as his master . this being the priviledge of such freemen , that their servants , and others belonging to them , though they are not free , yet may trade for them , and in their names : which is upon then atter no priviledge at all to the childe or servant , but onely to the freeman himself under whom they trade . but will any say , that to be a childe of a church-member is no priviledge at all to a childe , but onely to the father ? or will any say , that the childe hath no more priviledge then the servant , sith in the cafe alledged , the servant may trade under the freeman , as well as the childe may ? we suppose none will say this ; and therefore in this the comparison doth not suit the case in hand . the orders and priviledges of corporations are various , according to the tenour of their several charters ; but what the charter of the church is , we know , viz. that in gen. . it takes in children into the church with their parents , and doth not allow them to be put out , till censureable iniquity do appear . . if in some corporations one that is free-born do lose his priviledge when he becomes adult , if he do not then enter personally into the engagement , yet it is not certain that it is so in all . sure no such thing is said of paul , who yet pleads his priviledge of being a freeman of rome , because he was so born , without mention of any personal act of his own for attaining that priviledge , acts . and if paul , being free-born , did retain his freedome when adult , without any personal act of his own for that end , why may it not be so in respect of church-membership , though in all civil corporations it be not so ? it is evident , that the scripture speaks of the children of bond-servants , as bound a●so , and of the children of the f●er , as free also , without mention of any act of the children to procure that relation or state , in the one case or in the other , ●eu● . . , . and we see no reason but it may be so also in the visible church , that if the parent be a member , the childe is so also , and so continues , 〈◊〉 i. e be cut off , not losing his membership by the meer not performin● of what might fit him for full communion . . if it were so in all corporations , that a freemans childe doth lose his freedome when adult , if he do not then in his own person enter into the common engagement ; and if it were also so in the church , that a members childe should lose his membership when adult , if he do not then personally coven●nt , ( though this is more then we see proved ) yet if it were so , we see not how this can be prejudicial to the persons spoken of in this fifth proposition . for of them it is expresly said , that they do solemnly own the covenant before the church , and therein give up themselves and their children to the lord , &c. and therefore though freedome in a corporation , and membership in the church , might be lost by not entring personally into the common engagement , and covenant ; yet , except we shall say it may be lost , though this personall engagement and entring be performed and done , except we shall say this , we cannot say that the membership of the persons in question is lost at all , but doth still continue , sith they are such as do thus personally engage and covenant . as for that text , rom. . . if thou be a breaker of the law , thy circumcision is made no circumcision , which is here alledged again : we refer the reader to what hath been said touching this text before in pag. . lastly , whereas the reverend author saith , those texts in rom. . . cor. . . gen. . . are not applicable to the adult persons in question , but onely to infants and children in minority . the answer is , that the synod doth not at all apply them to the adult persons in question , and therefore it is a great mistake so to think : but having said , that these persons are personall , immediate , and yet-continuing members , they do thence infer , that their children are therefore also members , in covenant , and holy , and consequently are the subjects of baptism ; which inference and consequence the reverend author we are perswaded will not deny , if the ground thereof be good , that the parents in question are members of the church , as the synod apprehends that they are . and therefore although the texts alledged be not applicable to the adult persons in question , yet if they be applicable to such infants and little children whose parents are personal , immediate , and yet-continuing members , they do then sufficiently serve the purpose for which they are here alledged by the synod . so much for defence of the sixth and last argument for confirming this fifth proposition . propos. . the sixth proposition of the synod , is this , such church-members who either by death , or some extraordinary providence , have been inevitably hindred from publick acting as aforesaid , yet having given the church cause in judgement of charity to look at them as so qualified , and such , as had they been called thereunto , would have so acted , their children are to be baptized . to this the reverend author answereth , that this proposition may not be granted , for it granteth the priviledge of church-membership to such as are not actually and regularly church-members . ans. and yet the proposition , in the very first words of it , doth expresly declare , that what church-priviledge is here mentioned , is not granted to such as are not church-members , but to such as are : such church-members , saith the synod , who , &c. their children are to be baptized . so that though church-priviledges may not be granted to such who are not church-members , yet to the persons here spoken of , the baptism of their children may be granted , without any such undue granting of church priviledges , sith the synod doth not say these persons are not church-members ▪ but doth expresly say they are . all that can be said against these persons , is , that they have not acted according to the fifth proposition : and yet it is said , they have been inevitably hindred therein , and have given the church cause in judgement of charity to look at them as willing to have so acted , and therefore having been church-members from their birth or minority , how can the applying of baptism to their children , be the granting of a church-priviledge to such as are not church-members ? if they had not been hindred from acting as in the fifth proposition , but had indeed so done , yet this is not the thing that would have made them members , they having been members afore ▪ and though they be now adult , yet it hath been proved afore in the fifth proposition , arg. . part. . that their membership doth still continue ; and therefore the granting of church-priviledges to such as are not church-members , may be yielded to be unwarrantable , without any prejudice to the persons here spoken of , or to what the synod here saith concerning them . and whereas the reverend author doth here lay down two inferences : . that an ordinary minister cannot orderly do an act of office to such as are not regular and actual members of the visible church ; but , if he do , it will be usurpation . . that the church may not receive into any priviledge of church-communion , such as are not actually in publick church-order . these may both be granted , and yet what the synod here saith not be at all infringed thereby . for , considering that the persons spoken of were church-members long ago , and have never since been cut off or cast out from that relation , nor deserve any such matter , but do still continue therein , as was shewed in the fifth proposition , therefore we cannot see how it can be any usurpation in the minister to do acts of his office towards them , nor unlawful in the church to receive them to such a priviledge of church-communion as is spoken of ; nay rather the persons being and still continuing members , the performance of the thing in question may seem to be so far from being usurpation , as that the neglect thereof may be counted an unwarrantable omission or transgression . the first reason of the synod for confirming this proposition , is , because the main foundation of the right of the childe to priviledge remains , viz. gods institution , and the force of his covenant carrying it to the generations of such as are keepers of the covenant , i. e. not visibly breakers of it , &c. whereunto the answer of the reverend author is , that the parents of the children in question are visibly breakers of the covenant , which was sealed to them by baptism in their infancy , which obliged them to covenant personally for themselves and theirs , &c. p. , . ans. but is this certain , that the parents in question are visibly breakers of the covenant ? sure this , if it be affirmed , had need to be soundly cleared . for either they be such as do personally own the covenant , being qualified with knowledge and blameless life , &c. as in the fifth proposition , or else if they have not so acted , they have been inevitably hindred therein , as is said in the sixth proposition : and is it reasonable , that for all this they must be counted visibly breakers of the covenant ? are they such breakers of it , who do publickly own it , and therein give up themselves and their children to the lord , being not culpable for any contrary practice in their conversation ? or are they such breakers of it , who if they have not publickly acted as aforesaid , the reason hath been , because they have been inevitably hindred ? we cannot see that rule or reason will allow or give warrant for such apprehensions . put case a person who was born a church-member , and hath been sound in judgement , and unblameable and commendable in his conversation all his dayes , but hath been , like ioseph , sold for a slave , and kept in bondage , suppose to the turks , or others for many a year : suppose also that after a time he be restored to his liberty , and thereupon do return homeward with his childe or children born to him in his exile and bondage , intending to present himself and his children to the lord in the church where he was born , but before he reach home , he dieth by the way ; this man is inevitably hindred from entring into covenant personally , though willing to have done it , and fit for it : but will any reason or charity permit to count this man a visible breaker of the covenant , because he did not personally enter thereinto ? we suppose this cannot be said , he being inevitably hindred from so acting . why then should the parents in question be judged to be visibly covenant-breakers for not entring into covenant personally , when it is expresly said they have herein been inevitably hindred , though willing to have done it , if there had been opportunity ? for our parts , we dare not judge them to be visibly covenant-breakers , as not seeing any ground or warrant so to do . the second reason of the synod for confirming this sixth proposition , is , because the parents not doing what is required in the fifth proposition , is through want of opportunity , which is not to be imputed as their guilt , so as to be a barre to the childes priviledge . now what saith the reverend author unto this ? doth he deny that it is want of opportunity that hinders the parents from doing what is required in the fifth proposition ? no we do not see that he denieth this at all ? doth he then say , that though want of opportunity hindred , yet for all this want of opportunity , the not doing , though through ●hat want of opportunity , is nevertheless a barre to the childes priviledge ? not so neither ; we do not finde that he so saith , any more then the former : and therefore what was said in the former reason about being inevitably hindred , may be applied to this particular for want of opportunity , viz. that such not doing what is mentioned in the fifth proposition , can be no barre to the childes priviledge . but if the reverend author saith nothing touching this want of opportunity , which is the main thing which is mentioned by the synod in this their second reason , what then doth he say in his answer to this reason ? that which he first saith , is , that it hath been already proved in his examining the fifth proposition , that more is required to fit one that is adult for church-membership , then is there expressed , viz. faith in christ made visible to the church , without which they are not regularly church-members . ans. but the question here is not , whether more be required to membership then is expressd in that proposition ; but , whether want of opportunity in parents to do what is there expressed , be a just barre to the childes priviledge . it is evident that this is the question here in hand , whereto the answer of the synod is negative , that this want of opportunity is not a just barre . but whether it be ● just barre , or be not , the reverend author saith nothing at all to that , but speaks to another thing , that more is required to church-membership then that proposition doth express : so that the thing in question seems not to be touched . yet let us a little consider of this other whereto he leads us , and return back with him to the fifth proposition . concerning which , first , here seems to be a manifest mistake concerning the scope of that fifth proposition , which is not at all as is here intimated , whether what is there expressed be enough to fit one that is adult for church-membership ; but the scope of it is plainly this , to shew , that such church-members as were admitted in minority , if they be qualified as is there expressed , may have their children baptized : but for fitness for membership , that proposition doth not discuss that point at all , but expresly speaks of such as are members already , and were admitted long ago , even in their minority . as for that which is here said concerning his examining that fifth proposition , we referre the reader to what hath been formerly there said in defence of that proposition . further , the reverend author saith , that baptism administred by ordinary officers to such as are out of church-order , is profaned ; as circumcision was by the shechemites , and would have been by the ishmaelites and edomites , if it had been administred to their children , when their parents were not j●yned to the church , or abode not in it in the families of abraham , isaac and jacob. ans. still this makes nothing against administring baptism to the children spoken of in this fifth and sixth propos. except it could be proved that their parents are not in church-order . for the synod thinks , that as they were admitted into church-membership in their minority , so they still continue therein ; and the contrary we have not yet seen proved . as for the shechemites , &c. circumcision might be profaned when administred to them , and yet baptism not so , when administred to the children in question . for , if the former were not in the church , yet these are : and whereas the former were vile and vicious in their lives , these other are farre from any such thing ; and therefore there is no comparison between the former , and these spoken of , but a vast difference . and we may adde further , that as there is difference between those shechemites and the rest , and the persons spoken of , both in respect of church-relation and conversation ; so in respect of this latter , these are farre better then sundry that abode in the family of iacob , to whom he will not deny but circumcision was lawfully administred . we may instance in simeon and levi , who committed that odious cruelty and blood-shedding , for which their father laid such a curse upon them a little afore his death , gen. . and if circumcision was lawfully administred to the children of these , they abiding in the family of jacob , how can baptism lawfully be denied to the children in question , or be said to be profaned when administred to them , sith they are children of parents who were once in the church of god , and were never cast out , nor deserving any such thing , but do still continue therein , and for life and conversation are farre from any such scandal and crime as was found in the sons of iacob aforesaid . one end of baptism now ( as it was of circumcision then ) is , to seal church-communion , cor. . . and is a testimony of the admission of the party baptized into the family of god , the father , son , and holy spirit , &c. ans. this is no just ground of denying baptism to the children in question , except it could be proved that neither they nor their parents are in the church of god , nor of his family , which yet we have not seen proved . the regular and lawfull use of baptism now ( as of circumcision of old ) presupposeth both gods promise , and his faith ( viz. faith for iustification with abraham ) who is to use it , either upon himself , or upon his infant . to use it , being not so qualified visibly , is it not a treacherous usurping of the great seal of the king of heaven and earth ? ans. neither doth this make against the baptism of the children in question ; forasmuch as their parents and they are under the promise of god , i will be a god to thee , and to thy seed in their generations : and the parents being qualified as in the fifth proposition , cannot be denied to have faith visibly , as was shewed by the synod in their arguments for confirming that proposition , and in this defence formerly . sure it is , these parents may as well be thought to have faith visibly , as the sons of iacob afore-mentioned , and as many in the church at corinth , of whom it is said , that they were culpable for carnall dissentions , going to law , fornication , vncleannesses , and not repenting thereof , cor. . & . & . and cor. . and yet being in the church , and professing christianity , we suppose the reverend author will not deny but their children might be baptized , and the children of iacobs sons circumcised , and that this in them was no treacherous usurping of the seal of the king of heaven and earth ; and therefore much less can such a thing be imputed to the persons qualified as in the fifth proposition , though the seal of baptism be administred to their children . for it is evident , these persons are farre from such offensiveness as was in those corinthians , and in reuben , simeon and levi , but are much more innocent , yea commendable . so much for defence of the second reason of the synod for confirming this sixth proposition , against what the reverend author , in his answer thereto , saith in his digression , and turning back to the proposition foregoing . the third reason of the synod for this sixth proposition , is , because god accepteth that as done in his service , to which there was a manifest desire and endeavour , albeit the acting of it were hindred ; as in david to build the temple , kings . in abraham to sacrifice his son , heb. . . and in that of alms , cor. . . as in such as are said to be martyrs in voto , and baptized in voto , because there was no want of desire that way , though their desire was not actually accomplished . to which the answer of the reverend author is , that this may hold in private service , so that there god accepts the will for the deed , when the acting of it is hindred ; but in publick service , he doth not accept of that as done , which is not done , so farre as to bring them into publick state and order , whatever their desires and endeavours have been . and he instanceth in one that desireth to be a minister , and yet may not do the acts of that office , afore he be in office ; and in such as desire to joyn to the church , but may not be received to the seals afore they be so joyned . whereto the answer is , that what is here said is insufficient , as being not suitable to the case in hand , which is not concerning such as are out of church-state and order , as if desires after that state were enough to bring them into it , though their actual entring were hindred . for it is evident , that the synod speaks not of such , but of such as are church-members already , onely have been inevitably hindred from such actings as are mentioned in the fifth proposition ; which actings are not at all spoken of for attaining church-membership , for that state the synod accounts that they have attained already : but the actings mentioned are clearly spoken of for another purpose , viz. for the more orderly , clear , and edifying manner of administration of baptism to their children ; themselves , though being in the state and order of church-members , having not yet been received to the lords supper . it is evident , that the synod speaks of such persons , and of actings for such an end , viz. of persons already in church-estate , and acting for the end aforesaid ; and here in this sixth proposition of obtaining that end , though their actings , as aforesaid , have been inevitably hindred . whereas the reverend author speaks of such as are not in church-state and order at all , though they do desire it ; and of them he saith , that these desires are not sufficient for their admission unto church-priviledges , when their actual entring into church-state is hindred : between which , and those spoken of by the synod , there is great difference ; so that if what he faith were granted , yet what is delivered by the synod is nothing hindred thereby : but though desire of office , or of church-estate , be not sufficient for doing the duties of the one , or obtaining the priviledges of the other , when actual entring into that office and state is hindred ; yet when such as are in church-estate already , do desire to act as in the fifth proposition , but are inevitably hindred from so acting , what should hinder but they may have their children baptized , as if they had so acted indeed ? and why may not the instances of gods accepting of abrahams offering his son , of davids building the temple , and the other mentioned by the synod , be sufficient proofs hereof ? we see nothing to the contrary but they may . whereto may be added that in chron. . where the people that prepared their hearts to seek god , are accepted of god in the passeover , though they were not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary : yet whatever it was that hindred their cleansing , their preparing their hearts did imply that they did desire it , and hereupon at the prayer of hezekiah they are accepted . and in sam. . when two hundred of davids men were by faintness hindred that they could not go over the brook besor , as he and others did , yet he will not yield but that they shall have part of the spoil , as well as others that went down to the battell ; considering that it was not want of will , but want of ability that hindred their acting as others did : and he , as he was in other things , a man after gods own heart , even so he was in this ; and they that would not have had the will of these two hundred accepted , when their deed was so inevitably hindred , are called wicked men , and men of belial . by all which the argument of the synod is further confirmed and cleared , when they say in this their third reason , that god accepts that as done in his service , to which there was a manifest desire and endeavour , albeit the acting of it were hindred . and , if god accept those as martyrs who are such onely in voto , as the reverend author seemeth to acknowledge , pag. why may not the like be said of those who are onely baptized in voto ? we see no reason but that if in the one case god accept them as martyrs , he doth also in the other as persons baptize● . and whereas he saith , to be baptized in voto , will nothing advantage any , as to church-fellowship , because de occultis non judicat ecclesia , and things are not manifested to the church otherwise then by congruous actings . the answer is , . that the thing here spoken of by the synod , is not at all of receiving into church-fellowship , as the reverend author carries it , but of baptizing the children of such as are in church-estate already , and have been so even from their minority . . nor is the desire they speak of so hidden and unknown , that the church cannot judge of it , but so manifest , that they have given the church cause in the judgement of charity to look at them as so qualified , as is said , and that had they been called thereto , they would have so acted . so that if it were true , that men could not be received into church-fellowship by meer desire of such state , when that desire is secret , and not manifest to the church ; yet men that are in church-estate already may have their children baptized when their desires to act , as is mentioned , are sufficiently known to the church , though their acting hath been inevi●ably hindred . for these cases do apparently differ ; so that what the synod saith in the one , is not overthrown by what the reverend author saith in th● other . . it is conceived by some , that those who of the ancients are said to be baptized in voto , were so spoken of , because they were martyred before they could actually receive baptism , and yet that their children were after the death of the parents actually baptized and accounted of the church : which if so , doth testifie , that they counted it a great matter to be baptized in voto , sith in such case they would actually apply baptism to the children , when the parents had not received it actually , but onely in voto , or in desire . and how much more may baptism be applyed to the children in question , whose parents are not onely baptized actually , and not in d●sire onely , but have been actually members of the church even from their birth or minority ? onely they have not acted as in the fifth proposition , but have been inevitably hindred therein , though they have been known to the church to desire so to have acted . fourthly , saith the synod , the termes of the proposition import that in charity , that is here done interpretatively , which is mentioned to be done in the fifth proposition expresly . the reverend author answereth , it s an unwarrantable charity that makes such an interpretation , for it is without warrant of any rule in scripture , or in good reason . ans. but is this certain , that neither rule in scripture , nor good reason , will give warrant for such charity as is mentioned ? if men have been by death , or some extraordinary providence , inevitably hindred from so acting as in the fifth proposition , and yet have given the church cause to look at them as such as would have so acted , if they had been thereunto called , and not inevitably hindred , is there yet for all this no warrant in scripture or good reason for such charity as is spoken of ? for our parts , when god almighty accepts the will for the deed , when the parties inability hinders from doing so much as he would , cor. . . and when scripture tells us , that charity thinketh not evil , but believeth all things , hopeth all things , &c. cor. . , . we cannot but think it better to retain and exercise such charity as is here spoken of , then to be driven or depart from it , as if no rule of scripture or good reason would warrant it . if that which is mentioned to be done in the fifth proposition expresly , is here done interpretatively , both being put together , will not avail to put the parent regularly into church-fellowship in any sense , and to give the infant a right to baptism thereby . ans. for putting into church-fellowship , the things here mentioned by the synod are not by them alledged for that end ; and therefore if this that is said by the reverend author were granted , the doctrine of the synod is not at all weakned thereby : but if the things mentioned be sufficient for the baptizing of the children of parents who are in church-fellowship already , the purpose of the synod is sufficiently gained . but why do not the things mentioned avail to put the parent into church-fellowship ? the reason rendred , is , because by christs ordinance onely adult persons , who have true faith and holiness , are adult members of the invisible church ; and the same persons making profession thereof outwardly in the order by him appointed , may be members of the visible church , and they onely can give their infant-seed a right unto baptism . ans. and is this certain and clear , that onely they who have true faith and holiness , and so are members of the invisible church , may be members of the visible church , and so their infant-seed have right to baptism ? if this were so , we may question whether it can be lawful for ministers , or any men , to dispense baptism to any persons at all : and the reason is , because they cannot certainly know who have such true faith and holiness , and so are church-members . for what the reverend author said a little before in pag. . that though god search and know the heart , yet the church doth not , de occultis non judicat ecclesia ; this we believe to be very true : and therefore if this hold , that none may be members of the visible church , and give right to their seed unto baptism , but onely they who have true faith and holiness , and so are members of the church invisible ; we say , if this hold , how can we know who are to the baptized , sith none can certainly know but god onely , whether men have this true faith and holiness in their hearts and souls ? therefore we think it more safe to say , that where there is a profession of true faith and holiness , and nothing contrary thereto appearing , whereby that profession can be disproved , such persons may be members of the visible church , and so have baptism for their children , whether they be of the invisible church , or no. and if the persons described in the fifth proposition be tried by this rule , we cannot see but as they were in church-fellowship from their minority , so they still continue therein , and so may have their children baptized , in as much as now they make a good profession before many witnesses , even the whole church , and do no way contradict their profession by any scandalous practice in their lives . and therefore , though that be true which the reverend author here saith , pag. . that without faith it is impossible to please god , and that therefore there must be true faith in them whom he priviledgeth to baptize their infants : that is , as we understand him , whom he priviledgeth to present their infants to baptism ; yet for all this it may be lawful enough to administer baptism to the children of parents qualified as in the fifth and sixth propos. and they that do administer , may have faith to please god therein , because of the church-relation and good profession of the parents , though the parents cannot please god in presenting their children to that ordinance , if themselves be destitute of the grace of faith : yet this we must still say , that for any that are so qualified as is said , we see no scripture-rule or reason that will warrant us to judge them so destitute . so much for defence of the sixth proposition . propos. . the members of orthodox churches , being sound in the faith , and not scandalous in life , and presenting due testimony thereof , these occasionally coming from one church to another , may have their children baptized in the church whither they come , by vertue of communion of churches ; but if they remove their habitation , they ought orderly to covenant and subject themselves to the government of christ in his church where they settle their abode , and so their children to be baptized . in being the churches duly to receive such unto communion , so far as they are regularly fit fo● the same . for confirming of this proposition in both the parts or branches of it , the synod giveth sundry reasons , whereto the reverend author saith nothing in the particulars , but in general , that he locketh at the regular communion of approved churches as an ordinance of christ : but further then so he saith nothing , either by objection against the proposition , or by consent unto it ? but all he saith is by way of propounding quaeri●s , to the number of half a score , or more ; and then concludes , that when these and the like questions are clearly answered , he shall then understand the true and full sense of this proposition , and what to say to it . but when the synod shall come together to answer these questions , whether ever or never , we do not know , nor do see any great probability of such a thing ; and therefore no more being here said against this proposition , we may conclude that it yet stands firm and good . and , as he concludes , that thus much may suffice , for the present , for reply to the synods answer to the first question ; so may we conclude , that thus much may suffice , for the present , for defence of the synods answer against what he saith to the contrary in his reply . concerning the reverend author's discourse upon the second question touching consociation of churches , we shall not trouble the reader with any large reply : and we hope it needeth nor , because there appeared no dissent or dissatisfaction in the synod about that matter . our brethren that dissented in the former question , readily and fully concurred in this , as themselves declare in antisynod●li● , pag. . besides , part of the reverend author's exceptions referring to the platform of discipline , concluded on with great unanimity in the synod held at cambridge , anno . ( sundry principal members whereof , as mr. cotton , shepard , rogers , norton , &c. are now at rest with god ) we shall not now after so many years , wherein we heard of no opposition , make that a subject of debate . but if the reader please to take along with him these three or four considerations , they may serve to take off what is here objected against us by the reverend author . . that we never said nor thought , that there should be a withdrawing from other churches upon differences , errours or offences of an inferiour and dubious nature , yea though continued in . we are farre enough from hastiness or harshness in that matter , being professed adversaries to a spirit of sinfull and rigid separation : we hope there is no word in the synods conclusions that savoureth thereof , if candidly interpreted . and for withdrawing from brethren because of dissent from what is here held forth by this synod , both our practice and our profession in the preface to that book , do sufficiently shew us to be farre from it . this may answer what is said this way in pag. , , , . . that we account not consociation of churches to be another thing th●n communion of churches , but onely an agreement to practise that communion , as is expresly said in propos. th & th . and therefore we understand not why the reverend author should so often praise communion of churches , as pag. ▪ , , . and yet dispraise and disl●ke consociation . is regular communion so good and excellent , and can it be hurtful for churches to agree and consent to practise it ? neither do we mean by that agreement , a vow ( as is suggested pag. , . ) or a formall covenant in a strict sense ( though mr. cotton doth not refuse to call it a covenant , in keyes , p. . . ) but onely a declared consent ( as is expressed propos. . ) of each church to walk in regular communion with their neighbour-churches . and if the reverend author doth approve of the acts of communion here set down for the substance of them , as it seemeth he doth by what he saith pag. . why should it be thought a dangerous matter to agree thereunto for the substance thereof ? we have indeed found in our experience much good and benefit by communion of churches , as the reverend author acknowledgeth , pag. , . and his acknowledgement thereof we gladly accept ; but we have also found , that the want of ready agreement timously to attend and exert the acts of communion , hath hazarded the peace and well-being of sundry churches , and exposed them to great troubles . we do not desire by our proposed consociation , to adde any thing to the communion of churches , but onely a vigorous and timous exercise thereof . . that we expresly disclaim the subjecting of a church unto any other ecclesiasticall iurisdiction whatsoever , propos. . and therefore it is strange that the reverend author should put that upon the consociation by us intended , that it is a subjecting of churches under classicall iurisdiction , pag. . it is not the bare consent , or mutual agreement of churches , but the nature of the thing consented to , as , viz. the power they agree to be stated under , that makes it a classical combination , or puts those churches under a classical iurisdiction . what though the voluntary combination , mentioned by by mr. rutherfurd , in his sense doth inferre a classical membership and iurisdiction ? surely it doth not follow that ours does so , when as we expresly disclaim it . but is it true , that where-ever there is a voluntary combination of churches , they become a classical or presbyterian church , and the members by conse●ting thereto , become members of a classical church , and under the power of it , so as to be excommunicated by it , &c. as is said pag. ? what then shall be thought of that known position of dr. ames , medal . lib. . cap. . thes. . which is expresly cited and approved by the reverend author in his reply to paget , pag. , ? surely it is no new thing with congregational-men , but their professed doctrine , with one consent to own some kinde of combination and consociation of churches ; but withall we constantly afirm with dr. ames in the same place , that this combination doth neither constitute any new form of a church , nor ought it to take away , or in any measure to diminish that liberty and power which christ hath left to his churches , but onely it serves to direct and promote the same . . let the reader please to peruse and consider the reverend author's eleventh and twelfth premised position , pag. , , . and compare them with what the synod hath published touching consociation of churches , and we suppose he will finde such an agreement between them , as that he will wonder ( as we do ) to see the reverend author appearing as an antagonist in this matter . it seems strange , that brethren should be willing to contend both where they do differ , and where they do not . also it may be considered , how many reflexions here are upon us , ( as if we would cast a snare upon churches , by straitning them in the use and exercise of their church-power within themselves in re propria ; as if we would absolutely binde churches not to administer censures within themselves , &c. ) for which nothing published by the synod did give any just occasion . and whereas mr. cotton is represented as being against our consociation , pag. . . let his printed words be viewed in the keyes , pag. — . his solemn speeches of it to sundry be remembred , and his draught of it a little before his death be considered , and the reader will see whether he can joyn in belief with the reverend author about that matter . the lord guide us by his spirit into all truth , and help us to follow the truth in love. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e it is no very good signe of truth , when there are many curious , nice , & dark distinctions used to defend a thing 〈…〉 enerv. tom. . l. . cap. quest ult . and his fresh suit , par . . pag. , , — . vid. rivet . in genes . . . ames . medul . lib. . cap. . thes. . (e) his words are these : any such notorious offender ( having named athiests , mockers of religion , witches , idolaters , papists ) may have the essence and being of a member of the church , as visit ●e , to wit , in this sense , a corrupt and rotten member , fit to be cut off . a member of the visible church ( though formerly an in offensive professor of the faith ) may afterwards fall away into any of these notorious scandals , and yet for a while still retain the essence and being of a member of the church as visi●le , to wit , till the church have orderly proceeded against him ; otherwi●e the church should want power to proceed to the excommunication of such a notorious delinquent . for what hath the church to do to judge men without ? cor. . . but such within the church are to be cast out , cor. . . (a) eadem eeclesia & pies habet secum●●● forma ● interat●● ad se pertinentes , & impies atque hypocritas se undùm extenam adnascentes . jun. animad . in bellarm . p. . (b) it might afford parker an argument as to ( manifestarii peccatores ) the notoriously wicked that they should not be tolerated in the church , but ( as excrementiti●us things ) be purged out by the vigorous , use of discipline , as he there discourses : but it touches not our question . ●oll . enerv. tom . . lib. . cap. . (h) calvin opuscul pag. . cartwright catech . pag. . (k) disciplina subjacent omn●s in vnitate frae trum 〈◊〉 , oblajante us●●al senem . rat. disciplin . pag. . (l) contradictio caret simpliciter omni medio . keck . log. pag. . hookers survey , pag. . catabaptistae decent non posse excommunicationem in ecclesiam reduci , nisi ij baptizentur qui scientes jugo christi collum submittant . bucer in joh. fol ● . see mr. cotton expresly holding forth excommunication to be applicable to such as the children in question , in holiness of church-members . pag. . (a) medul . lib. . cap. . thes. . and see cap. . thes. , , , , , . and m. shepards late printed letter , pag. , . (c) catech. explic . in ●uast . . pag. . (a) ames medul . lib. . cap. . thes. . (c) the scripture order is to ●ake the circumcising of the child part of the parents fitness for 〈◊〉 passover , and for admission ●ereunto [ let all his males be ●●●cumcised , and then let him come 〈◊〉 and keep it ] exod. . . ra●●er then to make his admission to 〈◊〉 passover a pre-requisite to 〈◊〉 childes circumcision . gerhard . de sacra c●na , p. . (b) see ratio disciplina fratrum bobem . in hist. praemissa , p. — ● . & — ● , , . opuscul . pag. . syntag. theolog. pag. . with pag , , . (a) lec . com. de can● dom. quaest . . pag. . (b) 〈◊〉 . p●g . ● & vid. quaest. . pag. . (c) de baptismo quaest. & . pag , . see the leyden divines , synops. dis●ut . . thes. . & disput. . thes. , . co●p●red with d●sput . . thes. . (d) quaest. & resp. ●● sa●ramentis , quaest. , . (e) ibid. quaest. ● . syntag. lib. . cap. . with cap. . (e) vid. dutch annot. on cor. . . (f) de sacra 〈◊〉 , pag ● . (g) de baptism● pag. , . (h) explicat . catech . in quaest . . pag. , (i) in quaest . . pag. . (k) so much parkers learned labours among others shew , and our congregational brethren in england met at the savoy , in their preface do well express : and see beverly examen hoornb . pag. . (b) consider whether it be not a greater detracting from the sacredness of baptism , when we make but a light matter of that membership and covenant that was sealed therein . if men have been once admitted to the lords supper , they count their membership stands firm & good ( through all decayes and degeneracies ) until excommunicate . but the solemn covenant & engagement between god and the baptized , that was ratified in holy baptism , wears away , and is a kinde of forgotten thing by that time they become adult . to be difficult in admissions unto baptism , and yet easie in letting go the benefit of baptism ( or the membership thereby sealed ) and to alledge the sacredness of the ordinance for the former , and forget in the latter , seem not well to cohere . 〈…〉 lib. . ● . p. ● . examen h●ornb . pag. . (k) it is not the qualifications of one in full communion , but his membership that gives his childe right to baptism ; for suppose he decay in qualification , and grow formal and loose , yet while he continues a member uncensured , he hath his childe baptized as well as the best in the church . acts . , , , . & . ● , , , . chemnit . in mat. . . (a) holin . of church-members , pag. . b●nè autē 〈◊〉 nos in genere , de ii● omnibus qui ex fidelibus noscuntur , & f●e deris formula indefinita jub●● , & cha●ita● monet bez quast . de sacram. ●● . . (a) de polit. eccles. lib. . pag. , . (b) de polit. eccl. lib. . cap. . & lib. . pag. . protestat . before treat . of the cross. (c) de polit. lib. . pag. . (d) ibid. lib. . cap. . & . & lib. . pag. . and of the cross , cap. . sect . . holiness of church-members , pag . (b) medul . lib. . cap. . thes. (c) magdeb . cent. . pag. . (d) sicut ergo tempere illius sacramenti , de c●●cumcisō qui nasceretur circumcide●dus ●ait ; sic nune de baptizato qui n●tus fuerit , baptizandus est . august . tom . . cont . pelag. lib. . cap. . see also tom. . epist. . ad bonifacium ; & epist. . ad auxilium . and de grat. & lib. arbitr . cap. . (e) ame● medul . lib. . cap. . ●hes . ● . b) grounds and ends of infant-baptism , p. , . prov. , . psa. . . notes for div a -e * see essay first , pag. ▪ . in ●xam . of prop. . a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. . mather, richard, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing m thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. . mather, richard, - . [ ], , - [i.e. ], [ ] p. printed for j. rothwell, and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard, and the crown in popes-head alley, london : . text is continuous despite pagination. annotation on thomason copy: "may th". "macher" is altered in ms. to "mather" on t.p. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng rutherford, samuel, ?- . -- due right of presbyteries -- early works to . herle, charles, - -- early works to . church of scotland -- government -- early works to . independant churches -- england -- early works to . congregationalism -- early works to . presbyterianism -- early works to . church polity -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a reply to mr. rutherfurd , or , a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches . vvherein such objections and answers , as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd , a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyters , are examined and removed , and the answer justified and cleared . by richard ma●her teacher to the church at dorchester in new england . . london , printed for j. rothwell , and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard , and the crown in popes-head alley , , the authors preface to the reader . christian reader , having published some yeares agoe , a small treatise , in way of a brotherly answer to reverend master herle ; i now present unto thy view a defence thereof against such objections and answers as have been returned to sundry passages therein , by reverend and learned master rutherfurd . in which undertaking it hath been farre from my intention to increase or uphold the differences that have appeared of late yeares in england amongst the servants of the lord , about matters of church government . for i had much rather bring prayers and teares for the quenching of such fires , then fewell or oyle for the increasing thereof : neither shall the same i hope , be any thing at all increased by what here i present now thy view . at the least this i may say , that i intended no such thing but the contrary , even the promoting of truth and peace , if it were the will of god so to blesse my desires and endeavors . true it is , i have taken the liberty to consider and try some things delivered by that reverend brother whom here i have to doe withall , but this i trust cannot be justly offensive , in as much as the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets , cor. . . and the doctrine of the apostle himselfe was examined by those noble bereans , whom the holy ghost commendeth for searching the scriptures daily , whether those things were so act. . . it is also true which our reverend brother saith in his epistle to the reader , before his peaceable plea , that there is great cause of sorrow that all the lords people should not minde one thing , and sing one song , and joyne in one against the children of babel . neverthelesse , this may be some comfort against this sorrow , that by the providence of the lord this diversity of opinions and disputes , if it be christianly carried as it may , may occasion and produce in the issue the further clearing up of truth . for as our author well observeth , from the collision of opinions resulteth truth : and disputes as stricken flints cast fire for light . due right of presbyt . epistle to the reader . the desire and hope whereof , together with the advice of such brethren as i consulted withall , was that which chiefely prevailed with me for the publishing of this reply , wherein the reader will finde sundry scriptures and questions controverted in these times , discussed and considered so farre as the nature of a reply or defence did lead thereto ; and i hope some or other through gods blessing may receive some profit thereby . and if the humble christian who desires to know , and love and practise the truth , shall receive any benefit or help for attaining these ends by meanes of this labour of mine , it is that which i intended and aimed at , and for which i desire that god alone may have the praise and glory . if any shall still remaine otherwise minded ; yet in due time i hope god shall reveale even this unto them . in the meane time , diversity of apprehensions in these points ought not to bred any alienation of affection amongst those that are otherwise orthodoxe , and sincere . it were a thousand pitties , if it should . for my part , i cannot but approve what this reverend brother sometime professeth , that he doth both love and dispute , contradict and reverence at once : peaceable plea : epist . yea , he counts himselfe a debtor for love , charity , honour and all due respect in christ jesus , and a seat and lodging in his heart and highest esteeme to all those that be godly , lovers of the truth , and sufferers for the truth against prelacy , though possibly they like not well of presbyteriall government : ibid. in answer whereto ( for i would be loth that such love should be lost upon us , without due returne of the like ) i would for my part professe the like deare and due respect to all those that are qualifyed as here he doth describe ( of which sort i know there are many ) though possibly they may like better of the way that is called presbyteriall , then of the congregationall . for those that give apparent testimonies that they are the lord's , and so that they must live together in heavens , i know not why they should not love one another on earth , what ever differences of apprehensions may for the present be found amongst them in some things . as for bitternesse of spirit and tartnesse of contests , i never thought that to be gods way of promoting truth amongst brethren , and therefore i have endevoured in this discourse to avoid the same . for i beleeve there is more hope of doing good by solidity of argument with a spirit of meeknesse and love , then by sharp and tart language , the fruit of bitternesse of spirit , wherein for the most part right of reason is wanting , the passions being there most vehement and stirring , where the intellectuals are most ●eeble and weake . now if any aske why this defence hath been so long deferred , it being now two yeares and more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came forth , such may be pleased to consider that new england being as 't is counted miles distant from old ; therefore many books may be extant in england a long time afore we that are so remote can so much as heare any sound thereof : and those few that come to our knowledge , are commonly extant in england a matter of a yeares space afore , and sometimes longer . in which respect many things may be spoken and printed against us , whereto it cannot be expected that we should returne any speedy answer . and though it be now twelve moneths agoe or more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came to my hands , yet at that time my few spare houres from my constant and ordinary employments were wholly taken up otherwise , so that i could not attend this businesse any sooner : which i desire may be accepted as a just apologie for the late coming forth of this reply ; which as it may seeme late , so it is more large then in some respect i could have desired , by reason that i doe usually transcribe those words of master rutherfurd , whereto i d●e apply my answer ; which course i confesse i did not unwillingly ( in some respects ) chuse , partly to save the reader a labour of turning to the place in master rutherfurd which i am speaking too ; which else he must have done , or have taken things upon my report upon trust ; and partly that my candid and faire dealing with the author , whom i have to doe withall might the better appeare . for when a mans words are not kept , but forsaken , and others substituted in their place , his minde and meaning may soone be mistaken , and represented amisse unto the reader . which is a practise that i have often seene , but never approved ; and therefore i have not used it . for i would be loth to wrong any man ; specially a man of such worth as i take master rutherfurd to be , by imputing to him what he doth not teach nor deliver : and for this cause it is that i have usually transcribed and expressed his owne words ; and by this meanes my booke is growne to the greater bulk . one thing more i would advertise the reader of , and then i shall quickly have done : the figures from and so forward , noting the number of the pages in master rutherfurd his treatise , are set downe twice therein , once in their proper place , and againe after the page . wherefore if any of these pages be quoted in this reply , as some of them are , if the thing that is alleaged be not found in the page that is named , looke for it in the other place of the booke where are the same figures , and there you may finde it . courteous reader , study the truth in a way of piety and peace : be zealous for it , but lose not love to the saints : beware , when the world is filled with disputes about discipline , that thou be not drawne onely to erroneous opinions in maine matters of doctrine . be sure to practise and expresse the power of godlinesse in humility of minde , mortification of thy own corruption , faith in the lord jesus , and love to all his redeemed ; and be not by any meanes drawne away from these things , which doe so mainly conduce to thy salvation . finally as the holy ghost saith , phil. . , . whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are lovely , pure , and of good report , if there be any vertue , if there be any praise , thinke on these things , and doe them ; and the god of peace shall be with thee . improve i pray such interest as thou hast in god through the mediator , by affording the help of thy prayers for me , who am truly desirous of thy salvation , r. m. decemb. . . a table of the contents of the ensuing treatise . chap. . of appeales from particular congregations , and the true cause of appeales , and whether by mr rutherford his doctrine in this point there must not be appeales to generall counsells , whose power of iurisdiction he doth not yet deny . page . . chap. . of the power of synods to give advite and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow that they have no power to command . page . . chap. . of the assembly , acts. . whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction , against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them does argue the affirmative . page . . chap. . of the dogmaticall power of synods : and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves , if ability serve thereto . page . . chap. . againe of that assembly acts. . whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching do prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . page . . chap. . whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at ierusalem . page . . chap. . whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . page . . chap. . whether antioch acts. . had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had bin able , and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , do prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . page . . chap. . whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall do make the gospel more defective , then the law of excommunication by a church that hath onely three elders , and of doing things suddenly . page . . chap. . whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise entirenesse of iurisdiction , as well as one that hath none ; and whether a man may take on him the whole minestry , having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptising or ministring the lords supper . page . . chap. . whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church , doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours , as well as to a church that hath none ; and whether otherwise neighbouring churches be not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . page . chap. . whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be iudge , and whether mr rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach ; and whether this saying , that parties may not be iudges , do make against entirenesse of power in a congregation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . page . . chap. . whether the churches at thessalonica and jerusalem , were each of them more then one congregation , and of mr. baynes his judgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke . . and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . page . . chap. . whether the church at corinth was one church meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether cor. . . if the whole church come together in some place , &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page . . chap. . whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem ; and the judgement of mr baynes whether that church was many congregations or one onely . page . . chap. . whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation : and whether acts. . . and . . doe not prove the affirmative . page . . chap. . whether or no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same as well as men . and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . page . . chap. . of mr rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . page . . chap. . of the appeales of luther and cranmer , and of the power of iurisdiction in generall councels denied by mr. rutherford ; whether therein be doe not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the iurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . page . . chap. . if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether would it not follow that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrewes , who ch●se the seven deacons acts. . were two congregations , or one onely . page . . chap. . whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words ▪ mat. . tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy for the offences of churches and church members . and if yea , whether it would not thereupon follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others ; and so have no independency of iurisdiction within it selfe , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall counsels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny . page . . chap. . when the supreame magistrate is a professed enemy to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall , that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious , and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to injoyne the same unto that greater part . page . . chap. . whether the word church be not given to a single congregation : and whether a congregation be a company or church-meeting onely for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , . of word and sacraments , . of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . page . . chap. whether those children of israell numb . . . who laid hands on the levites were elders by office , and as so considered did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove , that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members though no elders by office , may impose hands on church-officers . page . chap. . whether a ministers calling consist in election or imposition of hands , and whether of these is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether tim. . . acts. , , . acts. . , , . doe prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbeterie , and that such imposition of hands is not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe . also whether rom. . . do prove that a man cannot be a minister , except some presbyterie ordaine him before the people choose him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minister to themselves . and whether the people of god may not as well discerne a mans fitnesse to be ordained , as his fitnesse to be elected . page . . chap. . whether the epistles to timothy and titus wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that this action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyteries ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyteries , and do not as well exclude the presbyteries from medling therein , as exclude the people . page . . to the christian reader . in the yeare . there came forth a treatise against independency , under the name of my reverend and learned brother mr. charles herle , the pastor of winwick in lancashire . this treatise , because it seemed to bee written with such a candid and peaceable spirit as might witnesse for its author that the thing he aymed at therein was meerly the disquisition of the truth ; and because the author thereof was many yeares agoe of my reverend brother mr. tompsons acquaintance and mine ; therefore we thought it might not be in vaine if we should lovingly communicate to the learned author such apprehensions of ours , whereby wee were detained from concurring with his judgement in the principall question disputed in the said treatise . and therefore in the latter end of the same yeare , there came forth a small script under our name in way of a brotherly answer to that his loving and learned treatise . against this answer mr. samuell rutherford a learned writer of the church of scotland , hath alledged and published many objections . exceptions , and answers , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyteries : i may call them many , because in that treatise of his there are no lesse then or severall places , wherein he bring up by name the said answer , disputing against sundry passages therein as if they were not sound ; which passages if they be indeed erronious and unsound , are a great many to bee contained and found in so small a work the whole booke as it is now printed containing in it . leaves : so that the leaves in the booke are not much more then the places therein which this learned writer doth object against ; which being considered , i thought it therefore needfull to peruse and weigh as the lord should helpe , the severall places of his fore-mentioned treatise , wherein he deales against the said answer : and having so done , i here present my apprehentions to publike view , leaving the prudent and judicious reader to consider and judge ; whether this reverend and learned brother have sufficiently overthrowne or weak'ned the said answer , or whether the same doe not still remaine agreable to the rule of truth , notwithstanding his objections against the same , or such answers as he doth returne to severall passages therein . chap. i. of appeales from particular congregations and the true cause of appeales ; and whether by mr. rutherford his doctrine in this point there may not be appeales to generall councils , whose power of iu●isdiction he doth yet deny . first of all in his page . ( for that is the first place wherein i find him medling with the answer ) speaking of doubts concerning math. . . tell the church ; in a . th objection about that scripture , besides other particulers hee hath these words , viz. there is no reason to appeale to a higher iudicature because the inferiour may erre , because all above a congregation are courts which may erre ; presbyteries provinciall , nationall , the universall councill of the catholicke church may erre : and then for author of this part of the objection hee subjoyneth my name , and answer to mr. herle , cap. . pag. , . answ . when hee is discoursing of doubts concerning that scripture , math . tell the church , i know no reason why hee should bring those words of mine at such a time or for such a purpose . for though i doe acknowledge that i wrote the words which hee hath set downe or such like , in the place by him alledged ; yet that they were brought by me for such purpose as hee doth report ( viz. for the cleering of doubts concerning the meaning of math. . ) that i doe utterly deny . he that shall looke upon the chapter and pages alledged , will find that i doe not there meddle at all with that scripture , either for one purpose or another ; and therefore cannot be truly said to have used the words alledged , in way of cleering doubts concerning the same . and albeit in another place , ( cap. . pag. . et sequ . ) i doe purposely speake to that scripture ; yet in that place there is no mention at all of the words by him alledged nor of any such like , and where such words are to be found , there that scripture is not mentioned at all . now who knoweth not that a man may be much wronged , when the words which hee hath spoken are taken and applyed to such a purpose , for which he did never bring them nor intend them . but to let this passe , let us heare what our reverend author saith against the words alledged , in his answer . the cause of appeales , saith he , is not because inferiour iudicatures may erre , for so wee might appeale from all iudicatures , even from a generall councill , for it may erre , pag. . lin . ult . answ . is not this the very same that was said in the answer , pag. , . the pages which hee here undertakes to answer , is it not there said ; as for classicaticall provinciall , and nationall synods , there is none of these but those cases of deficiency and possibility of partiality may befall the best of them ; and therefore if for these causes the single congregations may not be indep●ndant , but there may be appeales from them , the synods being subject to the like , there may bee liberty of appeales from them also — . for as the congregations may be partiall and erre , so we suppose it will not be denyed but the classis may erre , the provinciall synod may erre , the nationall may erre , yea generall councils may erre ; and so by this reason not synods nor generall councils may have entirenesse of jurisdiction , but there may be liberty of appeales from them also . these are our words in those very pages which here mr. rutherford pretends to answer and disprove or confute . but in stead of a confutation we see we have nothing but a plaine confession or affirmation of his owne , that the thing is even so as was affirmed by us before . now why hee should make a show of taking away or weak'ning that which we had said , and then in stead of accomplishing what he undertakes , to doe no more but onely to say the same thing againe which wee had said before , what reason i say he had for this i know not ; but plaine it is that for the particular in hand , the answer which he pretends to weaken , is not yet weakned at all , but rather strengthned and confirmed by his apparent yeelding the cause , and affirming the same that was before affirmed by us . but saith hee pag. . the true cause ( viz. of appealing to higher courts ) is , . because they doe not so frequently erre . . they are not so inclined and disposed to erre ; for many eyes see more then one , and doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : . because wee conceive more equality and lesse partiality in higher courts . answ . these three reasons seeme much what the same , or to hang one upon another ; for therefore they doe more seldome erre because they are not so disposed and inclined to erre , and they are not so inclined because they are more in number , and because there is in them more equality and lesse partiality : so that upon the matter it is but one reason , viz. because though they may erre , yet not so frequently and likely as the congregation . yet ( be they three reasons , or be they but one ) let us consider what force there is in this sa●ing to take away entirenesse of iurisdiction from a congregation , and to establish the necessity of appealing from the same unto a synod , for this is the thing that should be cleared . first of all it may be a question , whether synods doe more seldome erre then the presbyteries of congregations : and the reason of the doubt is ; because the promise of the presence of ch●●st is not made meerly to multitude or greatnesse of number ; but if they bee but two or three gathered together in his name , his promise is that hee will be present in the midst of them , math. . . now the promise of his presence being to so small a number gathered together in his name , why may not a congregation and its presbyterie being so gathered , though they be a lesser number then synods and councels ; yet bee partakers of the benefit of this promise , for the preserving of them from error , as well as those greater assemblies ? 〈…〉 not but in multitude of counsellers there is safety : nor doe i doubt but synods and council● gathered together in the name of christ , may expect the per●●●●ance of this promise of our saviours presence : but the thing i doubt of is this , whether a congregationall church of saints , furnished with an able and ●aithfull presbyterie ( for of such onely doe i speake ) may not by vertue of this promise bee as frequently preserved fro● error as those greater assemblies of synods and councils , posito that the synods and counci●ls did as frequently come together as the congregation doth : for otherwise i grant , the synods meeting more seldome may erre more seldome : but let the comparison be equall in respect of the time of assembling and comming together , and then i doubt whether synods 〈◊〉 preserved from error any oftener then the fore-mentioned lesser assemblies . it is well knowne what n●zianzen said of synods or councils in his time , viz. that hee had never seene good and happie end of any of them , and that evils were not so much redressed as increased thereby . epist . ad procop●um , quae est numere . referr . whitak de concill . q. . cap. . true it is , nazianzen lived as dr. whi●●● observeth , pessimis & turbulentissimia ecclesiae temporibus , in very corrupt and troublesome titues , when by reason that valens the emperour was averse from the truth , h●retickes much prevailed and corruptions greatly increased ; and this might make the good man something more to dislike all councils then there was cause . neverthelesse his words doe apparently witnesse , that in his time synods and councils did not seldome erre but very often ; so that hee for his part had never seene good that had come by any of them . then which saying i suppose one would not speake more hardly of a particular congregation and its presbyterie ; and therefore by this testimony of his my doubt is increased ; whether the matter be in 〈…〉 mr. rutherford doth say , viz. that synods and councils doe rariùs erra●● , more seldome erre then such a particular congregation as here i am speaking of . but suppose it were so as hee doth affirme ( and i will not deny it , onely as i said i doubt of it ) yet i doe not see what great matter hee can gaine thereby for the furthering of his purpose , that there must be liberty of appeales from particular congregations unto classes and synods , as unto higher courts . for if this be the reason 〈◊〉 such appeales , because such assemblies doe more seldome erre , because many eyes doe see more , and doe more seldome miscary in taking up the right object ; then it will follow that the greatest assemblies , in as much as they have the most eyes , doe of all others most seldome erre , and so to them there must bee the most appeales . for the learned author well knowes , à quatenùs ad omni● valet consequentia . and so by this meanes the true cause and reason of appeales lying ( according to mr. rutherford his apprehension ) in the rarenesse and seldomnesse of erring in such assemblies to whom appeales are made , and the cause of this seldomnesse of erring lying in the multitude and great number of eyes in such assemblies , it must needs thereupon follow , that vniversall or generall councils as having in them the most eyes , are the assemblies that doe most seldome erre , and so un●o them there must be most appeales . which if it be gran●ed , the classicall , 〈◊〉 , and nationall synods , are all by this meanes deprived and stri●t of 〈◊〉 of ●●●●diction as well as the particular congregations , the synods by 〈◊〉 to generall councils , as to those that doe ra●iùs c●rare , aswell as the 〈…〉 appeales unto the synods : and so thera must be no entirenesse of 〈…〉 onely in the generall councils , but from all other synods there must 〈◊〉 liberty of appeales , aswell as from the congregation . this consequence for ought i see doth unavoidably follow upon that which mr. rutherford lay undowne as the cause of appealing from a particular congregation : and so ou● brethren by this meanes have spun a fine thred , drawing forth a conclusion which is every what as prejudiciall to their owne cause as to ours . if any aske why may not this consequence be owned ? why may wee not say , there must bee liberty of appeales from all synods and presbyteries , except onely the generall councill ? the answer is , th●t wee may not so say ; because then causes would be too long depending a●ore they could come to issue , yea perhaps would never come to issue as long as this world shall endure : for by this rule they may by appeales upon appeales be protracted untill they be brought to a generall councill to be determined there . now as there hath not beene any such councill for many ages by-past , so it is very uncertaine when there will be one assembled , whether ever or never whilst this world stands . but wee thinke christ jesus hath provided better for his church then so , and hath not appointed such a necessitie of appeales upon appeales , but that causes may bee determined afore any generall councill can be assembled . besides , if such assemblies might be frequently attained , yet it is not yet cleered , that when they are assembled they have any power of iurisdiction at all ; but onely a doctrinall power to cleare up the rule , the power of iurisdiction remaining in some other assembly . sure it is , mr. rutherford thus teacheth expresly , for his words are these ; verily i professe i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councill ; there may bee some meerly doctrinall power if such a councill could be had , and that is all . due right , &c. pag. . and in the end of the same page and beginning of the next , speaking of those words , math. . tell the church , hee saith thus ; because ordinary communion faileth when you goe higher then a nationall church , and christ's way supposeth an ordinary communion — ; therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . by which sayings it appeareth , that he counts christs remedy to censure scandals not needfull in a generall councill , yea and hee seriously professeth , that hee cannot see that such a councill if it could bee had , hath any power of iurisdiction at all to censure scandals . which being so , it must needs follow , that scandals must be censured , and causes ended somewhere else , afore they can come 〈◊〉 such end to a generall councill . and if this bee so , then how can that stand which here hee affirmeth , that the true cause of appealing to synods in this ; because they doe rariùs errare , more seldome erre , then the particuler congregation , and having many eyes doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : for this cause is most properly appliable to the generall councill , unto whom notwithstanding hee denies any power of iurisdiction to censure scandals ; and if they h●ve no such power , there can bee no appeales to them for such purpose and end . and how these things can stand toget●er , that the true cause of appeales to such or such assemlies doth he in this , that they doe more seldome erre as having many eyes , and yet that to generall councils there should be no appeales at all , as having no power of iurisdiction , though of all others this cause be most properly ●ound in them , i for my part doe confesse i doe not understand . if any shall say , that as mr. ruthe●ford doth make that which i have mentioned the true cause of appeales , so hee doth also hold a power of iurisdiction even in generall councils ; and shall therefore doubt whether i doe truly report him 〈◊〉 touch the contrary , i would wish no more favour of such a one but to peruse the places which i have here above alledged , and then i hope hee will ●nd the words to bee no otherwise , but as i have set them downe . i know indeed there are some places in him which doe looke another way ; as that where hee saith , it is by accident and not through want of inuat● and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councill can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise that power which now we are speaking of due right , page . and a little after hee saith , he seeth nothing to prove that a generall councill hath not power to excommunicate a nationall church . yea and further , that if there were a generall councill at this d●y , they might lawfully in a iuridicall way ( so are his words ) doe that to the faction of romish pretended catholicks ; which hee saith , is excommunication in the essence and substance of th● act. and in the page next ensuing he saith , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholick councill . these places i confesse doe seeme to me not very well to agree with the either afore alledged : for in the one he plainly affirmes , there is in generall councils power of iurisdiction to censure scanda●s , and in the other hee doth as plainly deny the same . but it is the former places and not these latter which i doe stand upon ; in which former as i conceive him to hold the truth , so for ought i see , that which hee saith in this place wee have in hand about the true cause of appealing from congregations to synods is much infirmed thereby . for how can that be taken to be the true cause of appeales , which is most properly found in such assemblies ( i me●ne in generall councils ) unto whom as having no power of iurisdiction , there must be no ap●eales at all ? to conclude this chapter : when wee doe enquire about power of appealing , and unto what courts appeales must be brought , our way is not to seeke for such ●ourts as cannot erre , for such wee shall never find ; nor for such as we thinke will more seldome erre , as mr. rutherford would have it ; for that rule is also subject to much uncertainty and exception , as hath beene already declared . but the best way is to enquire where the lord jesvs hath placed the power of the last and finall censuring and determining of causes , and when that is found therewith to rest contented . and as for synods and councils , it is neither their not erring , nor their seldome erring that can bee a suffi●ient argument to place the power of iurisdiction in them ; unlesse the lord iesus had so appointed and ordained , which yet doth not appeare . and so much for this first place , wherein our brother deales against the answer . chap. ii. of the power of synods to give advice and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow , that they have no power to command . the next place wherein i find this learned author dealing with the answer , is in his page . where having in the close of a . th objection in the prece●ent page brought in these words , viz. a synod in dogmaticall power ariseth no higher then this ( viz. a man , or a single congregation ) as that a divine institution doth fall upon it . amongst other things in his answer to the objection hee saith thus , viz. i would know if a synods dogmaticall power be above the power of single congregations ; i think saith he , it is not by our brethrens tenents ; for they say expressely that every particular church hath right , jus , to decide dogmaticall points : this right the church of antioch had ( act. ) an● laboured to end that controversie within her selfe , which sheweth that they had right an● power : but they had not ability ; and therefore in that case they seeke for counsell , light , and advise from other churches — . and then amongst other places for proofe that this is our tenent , hee alledgeth in his margent my name and mr. tompson● in the answer to mr. herle , chap. . and after the words above rehearsed and some others to the like purpose , hee inferreth thus : hence saith hee , the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advise . answ . to omit ( at least for this time ) the other places alledged in his margent , and not to examine how farre his answer reacheth to satisfie the objection , as himselfe hath propounded it ; i will onely consider of such things as doe directly concerne the answer , for that is the scope ●ayme at , and i endeavour to keepe close thereto . first therefore i have this to say , that for the dogmaticall power of synods above congregations , for the right and power of the church of antioch in particular , and for the power of synods to bee onely by way of counsell and advise , there is not in the chapter alledged so much as one word about any one of those 〈◊〉 either one way or another ; so that i cannot but marvell why this reverend brother should alledge that chapter for such a purpose . . although in another place of the answer , viz. page ● . there be words to the like purpose with those which our author here sets downe concerning antioch , yet for the conclusion and consequence which hee would thence inferre , viz. that the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advice , as there is nothing said ● the chapter by him alledged that lookes that way , so there is nothing in the page or chapter where a●tioch is spoken of , nor any where else in all th● booke 〈◊〉 as i doe remember , that can any way serve for the proving of such a conclusion and tenent to bee ours . the author alledgeth no place that hath such a conclusion in it , either in direct words or by just consequence : and i professe that for my part i doe not know of any such . . but this i doe know that the direct contrary to what here is expressed is plainly to be found in another place of the said answer , viz. pag. . where there are these words , viz. if a synod may b● called a church , and if power by disputation and disquisition to cleare up the rule , and then to command obedience thereto , may be called government , then they ( viz. the independants as they are called ) doe admit a synod to bee a governing church , for the power here m●ntioned they doe allow unto synods . now the power here mentioned being , as we see , not onely a power by disputation to cleare up the rule , but also a power to command obedience thereto , they allowing this power unto synods as they doe exprestly say that they doe ; i know not why our brother should say , that they allow unto synods onely a power of counsell and advice . for power to command obedience , and power onely by way of counsell and advice , i suppose are not the same ; and if they be not , i know not how this report in this particuler can bee made good . to me it seemes apparent and undenyable , that they who have power to command obedience , have more then only a power to counsell and advise ; and they who have onely this latter have no power of the ●orme● at all . even interiours , as naamans servants , king. . have power to counsell and advise their master , and yet i hope they had no power to command their master to yeeld obedience . suppose it bee true ( which i deny not ) that the answer in another place , ( ●hough not in the place by him alledged ) doth say , that a●tioch had right to have ended the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served thereto , and that by reason of distention and through want of light they were forced to send out to ●●rusalem for helpe , must it needs follow thereupon that his assembly at ierusalem had no more power but onely by way of counsell and advise ? ( which is the conclusion which hee endeavours to draw ●●om that which is said concerning antioch ) i ●●●ceive there is no necessity at all of such a consequence . for whence must the same 〈◊〉 i suppose from one of these two , either from this , that antioch is supposed and said to have had right within her selfe , or else from this that jerusalem gives counsell and advise . any other colour for concluding such a conseptionce as is in question , the answer affords none that i know of . 〈◊〉 for these two particulers here mentioned , they are both insufficient for such 〈◊〉 purpose . for what should hinder but there bee more power in the synod of ●erusalem towards them of antioch then only by way of counsell and advise , even power to command them to do what is their duty , though antioch have right to end the matter themselves , if ability serves thereto ? doth right in one person or assembly to end their ma●●ers if they be able , extempt them from being under the command of others ? hoshoulders have right to governe and order their families , if so be that they be able : doth it follow therefore that superiors in church or civill state have no power to command housholders to do their duty herein , but only to give counsell and advise ? or if housholdere have such right , doth it follow that therefore they are under no command , in church and common-wealth ? i suppose it will not follow at all . or shall we say , that classes and provinciall synods have no right to end their own matters within themselves , if a nationall synod have power to command them ? or if they have such right , shall we therefore say they are not under the command of the nationall synod , and that the nationall synod hath no power over them but only by way of counsell and advise ? wee suppose master rutherford will not say so : and yet he might as well say it , as say as hee he doth , that because antioch hath right to ●nd her own matter if they be able , therefore a synod hath no power but only by way of counsell and advise . and though the synod is to give counsell and advise ( which was the other ground whereon the conclusier afore mentioned seemes to be built ) yet neither will master rutherford his conclus●on , that the power of synods is only by way of counsell and advise , follow from thence at all . for who knoweth not that . counsell and advise may be administred and given by them , who have also power to command ? not every one indeed as may advise and counsell , may forth with command and enjoyne : neverthelesse , counsell and command are not so repugnant , but that they who may command , may also advise . paul had power to command and enjoyne phyl●mon to do what was convenient , and yet for loves sake would rather beseech him , philem. . . the lord iesus to doubt hath absolute authority to command , and yet we find him sometimes speaking to the sons of men by way of counsell or advise . revel . . ● . i counsell thee to buy of me gold , that thou mayest he rich , &c. shall we now inferre from hence , that the power of the lord iesus is only by way of counsell aud advise , and that his power cannot amount to the nature of a command ? i suppose we would be afraid and abhorre to deduce such a consequence . and therefore , though a synod may advise , yet their power to command ( which is more then meere counsell and aduise ) is not from thence concluded to be null . and so much for master rutherford his second place , wherein he deales against the answer . chap. iii. of the assembly , act. . whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them do argue the affirmative . in his page . he laies downe this as a d. object . viz. that there is no censuring of persons for scandals , and that meeting , act , . because there is nothing there but a doctrinall declaration of the falshood of their opinion who taught the necessity of circumcision : and that all is done by way of doctrine and by power of the keyes of knowledge , not of iurisdiction , is cleere from the end of the meeting , which was verse & . to consider of that question : consideration of questions being the end of the synod , is a thing belonging to doctrinall power meerely . and then he s●●joyneth my name , and in the margent alledgeth the answer , chap. . page . ans . whereto i first of all returne this answer . first , that the thing here in question being about the power of that meeting acts . there is nothing in the place alledged by master rutherford that can warrant him to frame such an objection under master tompsons name and mine , as proceeding from us : and the reason is , because that meeting acts , is not mentioned at all in the place by him alledged , neither for that purpose which he sets down , nor for any other ; much losse is the objection ours in terminis . now to frame an objection , and to alledge chapter and page for proofe that the objection is ours , when as neither page nor chapter aleadged do speake any thing at all of that matter , what reason can be given for this i know not . neverthelesse , because the matter contayned in the objection doth not much differ from my apprehension and judgement , and something in the answer elsewhere may possibly intimate such a thing , though but briefly touched , i will therefore consider of what he saith for removing the objection as himselfe hath propounded the same . it is false , saith he , that there is no censuring of persons here , for — it is more then evident that the publike synodicall censure of rebuke is put upon those who held and urged the necessity of circumcision , and why not excommunication also in case of obstinacy ? for the synodicall censure of a publike synodicall rebuke is only gradually different , not specifically from excommunication , & both must proceed from ou● & the same power . so then the summe is , the synod had power of rebuking , and therefore of excommunication also . answ . the consequence is not cleere , for who knoweth not that there may be power to rebuke , where there is no power of excommunication ? is it not the expresse law of god , that every man shall plainly rebuke his neighbour and not suffer sin upon him , levit. . ? and are not our 〈◊〉 words as plaine , if thy brother trespasle against thee rebuke him , and if he repent forgive him , luke . ? whereby it is evident that one particular person hath power by the law of god and christ to put a rebuke upon another , if there be occasion for it . but will it follow hereupon that one particular christian hath power to excommunicate another in case of obstinacy ? i suppose master rutherford will not say so ; and yet unlesse this be said , i know not how his consequence can be made good , that if a synod may rebuke , they may excommunicate also . i know indeed he saith , the synodicall rebuke is only gradually different from excommunication , and not specifically , and that both must proceed from one and the same power . but this would require some proofe , and should not nakedly be affirmed without any proofe at all . for of it selfe it is not evident , that where ●ver there is power to rebuke , there is power of excommunication also . the contrary i suppose is evident from that which hath already been said from levit. . . and luke . . and from many other scriptures , and reasons , which shew that one man alone hath power to rebuke , who cannot for that be concluded to have any power of excommunication . i know the learned m●n is copious in proving from the words of verse . certaine men went from us , and have troubled you with words , subverting your soules , &c. that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way confute the false opinion and doctrine of these teachers of circumcision , but doth also rebuke them for another fault , to wit ; their obtruding their false way upon the soules and consciences of others , and for their wilfull and obstinate upholding that opinion and raysing a schisme in the church . but if all this were granted his purpose were not gained thereby , unlesse he would prove that which he doth but only affirme , to wit , that a synodicall rebuke is not specifically different but only gradually from excommunication , and that both must proceed from the same power , which ye● he hath not proved at all . but saith he , i argue thus : if the apostles do not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine in this synod , but also in church way and by a juridicall power do rebuke and synodically charge the authors as subverters of soules , and lyers , then they doe not onely use a meere doctrinall power in this synod , but also a juridicall power : but the former is true : ergo , so is the latter . answ . with favour of so learned a man , i thinke this kind of argu●ng is but a begging of the thing in question , and a proving of idem per idem . for if the synod did not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine , but also by a iuridicall power rebuke the authors of it , then it must needs be true indeed that they did not only use a doctrinall power , but also a iuridicall power ; that is , if they did so , they did so : if they did use such power , they did use it . but there still lyes the question , whether they did so or no : and whether they did use such power or not , and this kind of arguing doth not cleere it all . if we on the contrary should argue thus , if this assembly did not put forth any power of iurisdiction or discipline , but only in a doctrinall way con●ute a false doctrine and rebuke the authors of it , then they did onely put forth a doctrinall power , and not any power of iurisdiction , one of farre lesse abilities then our learned author , would soone espy the loosenesse of such reasoning : at least himselfe , we doubt not , would soone espy it , for sometimes we heare him say , friend your logick is naught , page . and yet ( be it spoke without offence ) the logick which himselfe doth here use is not so good , as to be altogether without fault , no not for the forme of it ; and therefore , we do not see how any thing can be concluded th●reby . but to leave this mistake , and to consider of the matter it selfe . if it were granted that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way consute a false doctrine , but also rebuke the authors thereof , must it needs follow that this rebuking was done in a iu●idicall way ? is there no rebuking of offenders for their faults , but only in a way of ●●●●ction and discipline ? i suppose much needs not to be said for the cleering the truth to be otherwise . for master rutherford himselfe confesses page . that there is great odds to do one and the same action materially , and to do the same formally : and page . that one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . which being so , it followeth thereupon that though this synod ( to call it so ) act. . had a doctrinall power , yea and a power of rebuking these false teachers ; yet the thing that he from thence would inferre , viz. their power of rebuking in a iuridicall way , and their power of excommunication , these are neither of them proved thereby . for if it should be said , that though rebuking do not alwayes imply iuridicall power , yet if it be a synod that doth rebuke , then the power here spoken of may be concluded thence to be in a synod . the answer is , that this will not helpe at all , because this is nothing but the bringing in of another efficient , viz. the synod , for effecting or acting the same effect . now master rutherford confesseth pag. . that he doth not fetch the specification of this rebuke and of those decrees from the efficient causes ; and gives that for his reason , which to me is unanswerable , to wit , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision : and in the page next ensuing he confesseth also , that actions have not by good logick their totall specification from the efficient cause . which being so , then though it were granted that any synod may , and that this synod did performe this action of rebuking , yet the thing in question , to wit , that the power of a synod is a power of iurisdiction and of excommunication is not at all gained thereby . at the least wise ( to end this passage ) this i may say , that if this reverend brother will be true to his own principles , and not gainsay what himselfe hath already written , he for his part cannot conclude the synods power to excommunicate from this argument of their power to rebuke , nor yet from any other argument whatsoever : and the reason is , because he doth elsewhere confesse that synods are not to excommunicate any , and not this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censuring of them to other churches , commanding them to doe it . his words as they are to be seene in his page . are these , viz. i could easily yeeld that there is no necessity of the elicit acts of many parts of government , such as excommunication , ordination , admitting of heathens , professing the faith to church-membership , in synods provincicall , nationall or oecumenicall ; but that synods in the ease of neglect of presbyterycall churches , command these particular churches whom it concerneth to doe their duty : and in this sence act. . is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders of circumcision . in which words we have two things concerning excommunication ( to omit other particulars ) first , that there is no necessity that synods should excommunicate any , but only command the churches to do their duty therein . secondly , in particular concerning that synod acts . that they were to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbyteries of antioch and jerusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders or circumcision . which particulars being most true ( as i for my part so esteeme of them ) it followes thereupon , that what master rutherford saith in this place we have now in hand , is greatly weakned thereby . for how both these can stand together , that this synod should have power not only to rebuke , but to excommunicate these false teachers , and yet neither provinciall , nationall , nor oecumenicall synods to excommunicate any , nor this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censure to other churches to whom it concerned , commanding them to do it , how these things i say can stand together , i for my part am not able to understand . chap. iiii. of the dogmaticall power of synods , and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves if ability serve thereto . in his page . alledging mr. tompsons name and mine , and chap. . page . of the answer . he saith we there teach that there is a power of cleering truth dogmatically , & that ultimately where the controversy is ended : but he saith , we will have this vltimate power not in a synod only , but also in a congregation ; and then no answereth three things which there ensue . answ . our words are these , by power of decrees we understand power to cleere up the truth dogmatically ; for the word translated decrees is dogmata in the originall , act. . . and this power we confesse is in a synod , though not all in a synod alone , but also in the presbyterie of a single congregation . now these bring our words , if therefore this reverend brother would overthrow our tenent in this particular , he should have proved that there is not any power as all in the presbytery of a single congregation to cleere up the truth dogmatically : this indeed had been directly contrary to what we teach : but this be neither proveth , nor once attempteth to prove ; and therefore our tenent herein doth yet stand good , for any thing he hath said to the contrary . and no marvell , si●h the expresse words of the text do witnesse that every bishop hath power and is boand by his office and duty , by sound doctrin● both to exhort and convince gainsayets , tit. . . and accordingly the presbitery of antioch did labour to cleere up the truth in that controversy about circumcision ; and had much disputation about it amongst themselves , afore there was any speech of sending to jerusalem for help , act. . . which sheweth that they had power or right to have cleered the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served , or else this indeavour had been sinful as being an attempting to do that whereto they had no right . so that for ought we yet soe , the power that we speake of , and which wee hold to bee in the presbytery of a congregation is there indeed by the appointment of the lord. but let us heare master rutherfords answer . first , saith he , they seeme to make this dogmaticall power a church power , and the exercise thereof formally an act of church government ; and so it must be church power and church government in the synod , as well as in the congregation . answ . whence doth it seeme that we do so make it ? are there any such words as here he sets down ? or any words equivalent thereto ? or doth the place make any mention of church-power , and church government at all ? or is there so much as one word that looketh that way ? if there be , let our brother say that we seeme to ●each as he doth report ; but if there be not , we are sorry he should report us to teach o● seeme to teach , that which to our remembrance we never said nor thought . and sure it is , we have expresly said the direct contrary in page , the page next save one afore this which heere he is dealing against , where wee have these words , it seemeth to us ( say we ) that this power , viz. by disquisition and disputation to cleere up the rule ( and then to command obedience thereto ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and jurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church . these are our words in the page afore alledged ; wherein we plainly expresse what the power of synods seemeth unto us to be , even the direct contrary to that which he saith we seeme to make it ; wee on the one side affirming and expressing , that it seemes to us , the power of a synod is no power of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine : and he on the other side reporting that we seeme to make the exercise of dogmaticall power to be formally an act of church-government , and so to place church-government in the synod . in which report we must needs say , wee are plainly mis-reported . his second answer is this . the last period and conclusion of the controversie cannot be both in the congregation by right only , and in the synod by right only : for two last powers cannot be properly in two subordinate iudicatures . answ . this is very true , but it toucheth not us at all . for we never said the last period of the controversie is both in the congregation only , and in the synod onely . if we have so said , let the place be produced where we have said it ; for the place by him alledged doth afford us no such thing , nor any place else that we know of . all that the place affords concerning this point is only this , that there is a power of cleering the truth dogmatically in a synod , though not in a synod only , but also in the presbytery of a single congregation . and this doctrine i hope our brother will not deny . but whether this power be last in the synod , or in the congregationall presbytery , of this we do not speaks at all ; much lesse do we say as he doth apprehend and report , that this power is both last in the synod and last in the congregation too . wherefore our defence in this particular must needs be this ; that what here he confuteth to be outs , is such a thing as never fell from our mouths or pens , nor for ought we know did never enter into our thoughts . thirdly , he saith . if a controversie concerne many congregations as this doth act. . i see not how a congregation except they transgresse their line , can finally determine it . answ . neither doth this touch us , except we had said that a congregation may finally determine controversies which concerne many churches , which yet we have not said . as for that controversie act. . it is plaine from verse , that antioch did endeavour to have ended it amongst themselves , so far as they were troubled therewith . for some teaching that corrupt doctrine amongst them , they had much disputation about the point afore they determined to send out for helpe elsewhere . now to what end was thus much disputation , if they had no right to determine the matter ? might they not better have spared their paines ? or did they not transgresse their line in attempting what they did attempt ? sure it seemes they did , if they had not right to determine the matter . but for our part , sith we do not find them in the least reproved by the holy ghost for this attempt , therfore we cannot but think they did well therein . and thereupon it followeth , that if antioch was a congregationall church ( as it seemes to us it was , from act. . . ) either this controversie did trouble no church but antioch only , or else when a controversie or corrupt opinion doth trouble many churches , one of them may lawfully determine and end it , so farre at it concernes themselves . chap. v. againe of that assembly , act. . whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching doe prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . the new place where i find him excepting against the answer , it in his pag. . where he proposeth an object . to this effect , to wit. paul exercised the keyes of knowledge upon barbarians , and might have preached to indians , and did to scoffing athenians — yea paul by this power dogmaticall rebuked the athenians , act. . . yet paul had no power to excommunicate the athenians . and then he subjoyneth my name , and cites in the margent the , and pages of the answer . answ . this objection being taken from pauls rebuking the athenians , our brother had no reason to propose it under mr. tompsons 〈◊〉 and mine , for as much as in all that discourse of ours , the athenians to my rememb●ance are not so much as once mentioned : sure in the pages by him alledged there is no mention of the athenians at all . and therefore why this objection should bee proposed and reported by him as ours , wee doe not know . which i doe not say , 〈◊〉 though i thought the objection so weake , as though the authors of it may not well owne it . for from whosoever the objection came , for ought that i yet perceive there is good weight therein . for which cause , and because in one of those pages wee have delivered something concerning a ministers power to preach to pagans in generall , ( though nothing concerning the atheni●ns in particular , as hee reporteth ) therefore i am willing to consider what mr. rutherfor● saith , for the satisfying of the objection proposed , as not willing to passe by any thing without consideration , wherein our selves may seeme to be concerned or aymed at i deny not saith he , but there is a great oddes betwixt a concionall rebuking by way of preaching , which may be and is alwayes performed by one , and a juridicall rebuking by a power jurididicall of the keyes , which is performed only by a church society . answ . if all this were granted , you the objection is not satisfied , nor his purpose gained thereby . for the cleering whereof it is good to consider the thing in question , and how this objection comes in , and whereto it tends , and then we may better descerne how the objection is removed by mr. rutherfords answer : the thing in question is , whether a synod have power of iurisidiction and excommunication . mr. rutherford his scope in that place is to prove the affirmative ; and therefore for a dozen or pages together , hee hath these words in the top of every lease , the power of a synod a power of jurisdiction : and his medium to prove this tenent is this ; because a synod hath power to rebuke . whereupon ensueth the objection , that paul might rebuke the athenians and yet might not excommunicate them ; and therefore enough a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate . this is the order of the dispute , as is plainly to bee seeme by p●●●sing the place . and now comes in the answer which mr. rutherford gives to the objection ; to wit , that there is a great odds betwixt a concionall rebuking and a juridicall , the one being performed by one , and the other by many ; which answer i conceive is not sufficient , because this difference may hee granted and many more may be added if hee please , and yet the thing in question not gained , nor the objection removed at all . for what though a concionall rebuking be performed by one , and a iuridicall by many ? yet still it remaineth cleare , that there may bee rebuking where there is no iurisdiction ; and therefore , though a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate , nor have power of iurisdiction . if our brother would have satisfied the objection , he should not have satisfyed himselfe with alledging the difference mentioned betweene a concionall rebuking , and a iuridicall or synodicall ; but should have proved that there cannot be any concionall rebuking at all , at least wise not any rebuking of athenians who are not subject to excommunication , and if this had been proved , the objection had been fully removed . but this he hath not proved at all , nor once attempted to prove it , but plainly yeelds the contrary ; and therefore for ought i see the objection remayneth in its strength , and so the strength of his argument removed thereby , who would prove the synod , power of iurisdiction from their power of rebuking . but let as heare what he answereth in the words ensuing . it cannot be denyed saith he , but the rebuking of men because they subverted soules , verse . is not a meere concionall rebuking which may be performed by one . first , it is a rebuking verse . second , it is a rebuking performed by many , by a whole synod , . . third , it is performed by a politicall society . answ , and what of all this ? may it not neverthelesse be denyed that this rebuking was any other then in a doctrinall way ? be it granted , that it was a rebuking , and a rebuking performed by many ; and if were granted by a politicall society too ; must it needs follow that therefore it was iuridicall , or in way of iurisdiction ? i see no necessity of such consequence . nay , master rutherford himselfe doth confesse ( as we heard afore ) in his page . that the specification of this rebuke must not be fetched from the efficient causes , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . if therefore it were granted that many persons , a whole synod , a politicall society , or what ever else he will call them , were the efficient causes of this rebuke , yet all this is too little to prove that the rebuke was iuridicall , unlesse the specification of it must be fetched from the efficient causes , which master rutherford himselfe disclaymes . moreover , i would put this case : suppose a pagan or a christian of another nation and kingdome , shall come into a church assembly , whether the assembly be a congregationall church , or a synod ; and in the assembly shall openly and scandalously misbehave himselfe in one kind or other , to the dishonour of god , and grieving of the godly , and the danger of corrupting others that shall behold such bad example . i would gladly know whether this assembly be it synod or other , may not lawfully rebuke this scandalous practice and behaviour , and if they may , whether it would follow therupon that they may also lawfully excommunicate the man , if his sin and impenitency shall deserve the same . if it be said they may , i would know : quo jure ? and who gave them such authority to excommunicate pagans , or men of another nation , being only there present at that time occasionally ? and if they may not so proceed against such a person , then the answer to master rutherfords alledgements in the case we have in hand , is ready and plaine : for as he alledgeth , first , here is a rebuking . second , a rebuking of many , even a whole synod . third , of a politicall society and body ; even so the same may be said in this case in all the particulars ; for first , here is a rebuking . second , rebuking of many . third , by a politicall society and body : and yet all this is too little to prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in the case proposed ; and therefore i see not how it can be sufficient to prove such a power in a synod , for which purpose master rutherford brings it . of necessity for ought that i see , one of these must be said , either that this assembly have no power to rebuke the man , but must suffer his sin to be upon him , though god be dishonoured , and others endangered thereby ; or else it must be said they have power to excommunicate him as well as to rebuke him ; ( neither of which i conceive can safely be said ) or if neither of these can be said , it must then follow that their may be power to rebuke , even in an assembly of many persons , a politicall society ; and yet the same assembly have no power at all to excommunicate the persons so rebuked , and so this learned brothers arguing is answered . likewise , i suppose it will not be denyed , but one congregation if need so require , may rebuke and reprove another congregation , though neither of them be superiour to other , but both of them equall and independant of each other in regard of subjection , mr. rutherf . confesseth , p. . that congregations and churches may admonish and rebuke each other , and sure it is , that scripture , cant. . . we have a little sister , what shall we do for her ? doth shew that churches ought to take care one for the good of another . and if they must take care and consult for one another , there is the like reason that they should reprove and admonish one another , as need shall require . now when one church doth so practise towards another , it cannot be denyed , but here are the same things which mr. rutherford speakes of , first , a rebuking second , a rebuking performed by many . third , a rebuking performed by a politicall society and body . but can any man inferre from hence , that the church thus rebuking another church hath power to excommunicate that other church ? i suppose none will affirme it . and if this may not be affirmed , i do not see how rebuking performed by many even by a whole synod , can be any sufficient ground to prove that the synod hath power to excommunicate . the apostles and elders ( saith our author ) are not considered here as meerely preachers and teachers in the act of teaching ; for why then should they not be formally a church assembly , if they be an assembly meeting for preaching the word ? pag. . . answ . when the text acts , doth mention sometimes the multitude , verse . sometimes the brethren , verse . sometimes the whole church , verse . besides the apostles and elders , we know no absurdity in it , if one should say , here was formally a church and a church assembly ; in which church-assembly the apostles and elders were teachers and preachers , though they alone were not the church . yet though wee thinke heere was a church , and a church-assembly ; wee do not thinke mr. rutherford reason doth prove them so to be . for paul and s●las were preachers of the word in the prison at philippi , act . and at mar●hill , and the market-place at athens , act. . and yet we thinke it hard to inferre thence , that these assemblies were formally churches . yea but saith our author , the exercise of the keyes of knowledge in the hearing of a multitude , is essentially an act of preaching of the word , page . answ this is very true indeed , an act of preaching the word it must needs bee , the word preaching being taken in its utmost latitude . but is not unavoidably and alwayes a church-act , or an act that infallibly proves the assembly , where such an act is performed , to be formally a church ? this is the thing that should have been cleered , or else the thing is not cleered ; but this our reverend author doth not cleere at all ; and the contrary is very plaine from sundry instances in the acts , where the apostles did exercise the key of knowledge in the hearing of multitudes in sundry places , where yet for all this there was not forthwith any church ; and therfore , whereas he saith , the apostles and elders are not considered in this assembly as preachers and teachers in the act of teaching , because then the assembly should have been formally a church , we rather thinke they that shall consider it will find that the apostles did , and other elders in these dayes may put forth the act of teaching and preaching in some assemblies ( suppose assemblies of turkes and indians ) and yet the assemblies not thereby proved to be churches . chap. vi. whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at jerusalem . next of all , in his page in a . th objection in this and the former page he saith thus , therefore was the synagogue of the jewes no compleat church , because all the ordinances of god cannot be performed in the synagogue : and therefore , were the jewes commanded only at ierusalem , and in no other place to keepe the passeover and to offer offerings and sacrifices which were ordinary worship : but there is not any worshiper sacred ordinance ( saith that worthy divine dr. ames ) of preaching , praying , sacraments , &c. prescribed , which is not to be observed in every congregation of the new testament , — and then he subjoyneth mr. tompsons name and mine ; and in his margent cites the answer , page , . and further saith in the objection , that others say because there was a representative worship of sacrificing of all the twelve tribes at ierusalem , therefore all the synagogues were dependant churches , and ierusalem the supreame and highest church . answ . to leave what is alledged a● objected by others , and to consider only of that which concernes our selves . because the synagogues in israel were dependant on the great synedrion at ierusalem , therefore some would inferre that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on the iurisdiction of synods . to this argument we are endeavouring to give answer in the place alledged by mr. rutherford , where we shew that the synagogues might be dependant and not compleat churches , because the sacred ordinances of god which were of ordinary use , could not be performed in them ; but congregations in these dayes compleat and intire as having liberty to enjoy the use of all the ordinances within themselves : for both which particulars we alledge the testimony and words of dr. ames . the summe is thus much : if the synagogues could not enjoy all the ordinances within themselves , and our congregations may , then though the synogogues were dependant on the synedrion at jerusalem , it will not follow that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on synods . this is the 〈◊〉 of that which is said in the answer : in the place which mr. rutherford alledges . now what answer doth he returne to this passage ? truly none at all that i can find . none will you say ? how can that be ? doth he not propound it in his . th objection , as that which he undertakes to answer ? i confesse he doth so , but neverthelesse all that he hath set down for answer is wholly taken up and spent in two other things , the objection which he proposeth as ours , being wholly left untouched . those two things are these ; the one an answer to another passage of ours in another place of the answer , the other an answer to the last part of his objection , which himselfe doth acknowledge to bee the saying of others , and not ours ; and therefore hee brings it in thus viz. others say , because there was a representative worship , &c. by those words , others say , plainly declaring that what he thus expresseth , proceedeth not from us , but from others . and so though he returne answer to this saying of others , and to another saying of ours which we have written elsewhore , yet for this of ours which he proposeth in this h●s objection , i find no answer thereto at all . and therefore i thinke the thing remaines as it was , unlesse wee shall take his meere proposing of it for a satisfying answer , which we see no reason to do . neverthelesse , though he turnes away from this passage of ours without returning any answer thereto , yet there is another which he applies himselfe more directly against , and therefore to this sixteenth objection hee begging his answer thus , surely the aforesaid reverend brethren of new-england have these words , but it seemeth to us the power ( of a synod ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church : from whence ( saith he ) i inferre , that our brethren cannot deny a power of governing to a synod , but it is not so proper governing as excommunication and ordination performed in their congregations ; but say i , it is more properly governing as to make lawes and rules of governing is a more noble , emin●nt and higher act of governing ( as is evident in the king and his parliament ) then the execution of ●hese lawes and rules . answ . so then , th●se former words of ours proposed in the objection , are wholly forsaken and left , and instead of answering them , he fals as we set upon other words which we have written elsewhere , and applies himselfe to deale against those other . by which dealing the considerate reader may judge whether the former words being thus handsomly forsaken and left , do not still remaine in their strength : and whether it had not been as good never to have proposed them at all in his objection , as having proposed them to turne away directly and immediately from them unto other matters , without returning one word of answer to the former . the wise in heart may consider what this doth import . but sich he is pleased to acquit the former and to apply himselfe to the other , let us therefore leave the former in its strength and unshaken , and consider of what he saith in this other . wherein when he speakes of making lawes and rules of governing , either he me●nes this making lawes and rules properly so called , or else he meanes it onely of a ministeriall power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and in his name to com●and obedience thereto . and it seemes by the instance which he gives of the king and his parliament , that he intends the former sence . and if so , then the answer is that this noble , eminent , and high act of governing as he cals it , doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but only to the lord iesus christ in heaven , the script●res abundantly witnessing , that he only is the lord and law giver to his church , l●● . . . isa . . . for the cleering of which point , much needs not to be said , considering that this learned brother himselfe doth elsewhere directly and in expresse termes co●fesse as much as we desire in this matter . for in one place speaking in one place of a power to prescribe rules and lawes , he doth not only distinguish them from lawes p●operly so called by the word directive , calling them directive lawes , but also for further explaining his mind , annexeth these words . they are not properly lawes which the church prescribeth : christ is the only law-giver : due right , page . and in the page following speaking of a societies or a synods power of making lawes , he addeth for explanation thus , i take not here lawes for lawes properly so called , but for ministeriall directories , having ecclesiasticall authority . so then the church or the synod hath no power at all to make lawes properly so called , for christ ●s the onely law giver : and if so , then the governing power of sy●ods which our brother would prove by this noble and eminent and high power of making lawes is not proved thereby at all , in as much as this noble and eminent power of making lawes doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but to christ only . and this may be an answer to what he saith or a synods power to make lawes , it lawes be taken in their proper sense . but if he intend not this sense and meaning in the place we are speaking of , but only the latter , viz that synods have power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and to command obedience thereto , then i confesse the answer in the . th page thereof doth acknowledge such power to belong unto synods , but how this can prove their power of iurisdiction and government properly so called , which mr. rutherford would thence inferre , we for our parts do not yet perceive . for the power here described is but a meere doctrinall power , and we have given sundry instances in the answer , pag. . . to shew that there may be a power by way of doctrine to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto , where yet there is no power by way of iurisdiction and discipline to punish the breach of those rules ; which instance , this reverend brother doth not satisfie at all . and therefore though synods have power to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto ( which power we deny them not ) yet that which he from thence would inferre , that they have also a power of government and iurisdiction , doth not follow from thence at all , unlesse we shall say , that doctrine and discipline , doctrine and iurisdiction or government are the same . briefly thus : a power of mak●ng lawes properly so called is a noble and eminent kind of government , but this power doth not belong unto synods , but to christ . a power of cleering up christs lawes , and commanding in his name obedience thereunto doth belong unto synods , but this is no power of iurisdiction and government , but a ministeriall power of doctrine , and so still our tenent doth stand , that a synod if it may be called a church , is rather a teaching then a governing church . secondly , saith our author , our brethren incline to make a synod a teaching church . answ . we never yet absolutely yeelded that a synod might be called a church , 〈◊〉 on the contrary , wee have said , that unlesse it could be proved that in scripture the name of a church is given to a synod , we are not to be blamed though we give not a synod that name . answ . pag. . the most that we have yeelded in this point is this , that for the name we will not contend , and that if a synod may be called a church , then sith they have power by disputation to cleere up the rule , they are rather a teaching then a governing church . answer pag. . & . this is all we have said , and we desire our words may not be stretched beyond our intent and scope therein . but let us heare what our brother would hence inferre . i inferre , saith he , that synodicall teaching by giving out decrees , tying many churches , as our brethren of new-england and the forenamed authors teach , is an ordinance of christ , that can be performed in no single congregation on earth , for a doctrinall cannon of one congregation can lay any ecclesiasticall tye upon many churches , ergo by this reason our congregations shall be dependant as were the jewish synagogues . answ . when he saith the brethren of new-england and the authors of the answer do teach a synodicall teaching by giving out decrees tying many churches , and aledgeth for proofe in his margent , answ . . to . q. . . page , . and answer to mr. herle , chap. . pag. . with favour of so learned a man , wee must returne this answer , that neither of the palces alledged will make good his purpose , in as much as neither of them doth make any mention at all of the thing which he reports them to teach , viz. such synodicall teaching as gives out decrees tying many churches . let the places be viewed and the thing will be found as i say . and therefore how they can be said to teach that which they neither teach nor mention , doth surmount my ability to conceive . if the reader would know what it is that is taught in the places , it is no more but this , that in some cases it is requisite that churches should seeke for light and counsell and advice from other churches , as antioch , did send unto ierusalem in a question which they wanted ability to determine amongst themselves , and that there ought to be synods , and that we thinke that meeting act . might be such an one . the first of these is taught in the form●● of the places , and the other in the other . but for giving out synodicall decrees tying many churches , this same be it within the power of synods or otherwise , is 〈◊〉 taught at all in either of the places , except wee shall say ( which we thinke were unreasonable ) that there can be no synods , nor consulting of other churches for light and counsell and advice , but there must be in those other churches so consulted withall , a power to give out binding decrees , yea decrees that shall bind or tye many churches . we thinke this latter doth no wayes necessarily follow upon the former ; and therefore though the places alledged do speake to the former , yet the latter which this author reports them to teach , they do not teach at all . secondly , i answer further , that if such a doctrine were indeed taught in the places by him alledged or any other , yet the inference which he would thence bring in , that then our congregations shall be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , th●s same doth not follow at all : and the reason is , because the synagogues were dependant on the supreame synedrion not only for light and counsell , no nor only for doctrinall cannons or decrees , but also for iurisdiction and discipline , that synodrion being their supreame court , to whose sentence they were all bound under paine of death to submit , as is cleere , deut. . , . and therefore if it were granted ( which yet we do not see proved ) that synods may give out decrees and doctrinall cannons , that shall tye many churches , it doth not follow that our congregations shall therefore be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , except it were also proved that they must depend upon synods in point of iurisdiction and discipline , as well as in point of doctrine , yea and so depend as that the sentence of those synods must be obeyed under paine of death . sure the synagogues and every member of them were in this sort dependant upon the supreame synedrion : but we hope 〈◊〉 reverend brother will not say that congregations must in this sort be dependant upon synods . at the least wise this we hope he will not deny , that every member of a church is bound to depend upon the pastor of that church in point of doctrine ; and yet it will not follow that he must depend upon one pastor alone in point of iurisdiction and d●scipline . and the reason is , because doctrine may be dispenced by one pastor alone , but discipline must be dispenced by a church , which one pastor alone cannot be . and therefore if congregations were to be dependant upon synods in point of doctrine , it would not follow that they must bee dependant in point of iurisdiction and discipline . thirdly , saith he , it is a begging of the question to make ierusalem the supreame church and the synagogues dependant churches ; because it it was lawfull only at ierusalem to sacrafice ; for i hold that ierusalem was a dependant church no lesse then the smallest synagogues in all their trybes . and so he proceedeth largely , to shew that sacrificing at ierusalem did not make ierusalem supreame . answ . it this were even so as is pleaded , yet that which we have said of the compleatnesse of the synagogues and of their dependancie is not at all removed thereby : and the reason is , because we do not make the synagogues dependant nor ierusalem supreame , meerely upon this ground , because ierusalem alone was the place of sacrificing , but this is the ground upon which chiefly we go , that at ierusalem was the synedrion upon whom all israell must depend for judgement , and from whose sentence there was no appeale , which ground wee still thinke doth prove both the incomplearnesse of the synagogues , and the supremacie of the synedrion , and the contrary to this must be cleered if our tenent in this matter be removed . true it is , we thinke it some argument of the synagogues incompleatnesse and imperfection that they were not permitted to enjoy all the ordinances which were of ordinary use : but the supremacie of ierusalem we do not place in this only , that there was the place for sacrifice but in this withall that the supreame iudicatory was there , upon which all israell must depend , and from the which there must be no appeale . and yet this supremacie we do not place in ierusalem considered a part from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe . and therefore , whereas he saith , pag. . that we might as well conclude that all the cities and incorporations of england are dependant upon london , inasmuch as the parliament useth there to sit , i conceive the comparison doth not sute , because as we do not place the supremacie in london or in westminster , considered apart from the parliament , but in the parliament which useth there to sit , so we place not the supremacie amongst the iewes in ierusalem considered apart from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe , which was there seated . but because our reverend brother in the latter end of this . th objection bringeth in this particular of ierusalems supremacie by reason of the sacrifices , with others say , therefore i conceive he intends not us therein , but some body else , and therefore i will proceed to the next wherein our selves are concerned . chap. vii . whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . in his page . he propounds a . th objection to this effect , if the government of consociated churches be warranted by the light of nature , then this light of nature being common to us in civill as in ecclesiasticall causes , it will follow that every city governed with rulers within it selfe ▪ must be subordinate to a classe of many cities , and that classe to a nationall meeting of all the cities : and the nationall government to be a catholike or oecumenicke civill court — . and because by the same light of nature there must bee some finall and supreame iudgement of controversies , least appeales should be spun out in infinitum , it must be proved that this supremacie lyeth not in a congregation . and in the margent he citeth mr. tompson and my selfe in page and page , of the answer , as authors of this last bassis in the o●ectjection . answ . it is true that in one of those pages alledged we speake to the like purpose as here is reported . for we there suppose it to be cleere by the light of nature , that there must be some finall and supreame judgement of causes , and that unlesse it be determined where that supremacie doth lye , ( which we account the very thing in question ) we say the usefulnesse and necessity of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question , and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales til you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and not a congregation is the highest is another . to this purpose we have written in one of those pages , the summe whereof is this much ; that though the usefulnesse of appeales till you come to the highest be granted , yet the supremacie of synods over congregations in matter of iudicature is not concluded thereby . now what doth our reverend brother returne in his answer ? doth he prove the contrary to what is here affirmed by us ? doth he cleere it sufficiently , that if it bee once granted that there must be appeales till you come to the highest , then the supremacie of synods over congregations must inevitably follow ? i conceive the necessity of this consequence had need to be cleered , if that which we have said be sufficiently answered . but doth our brother cleere this ? or doth he so much as once attempt the cleering thereof ? surely to speake freely what i find , i find nothing that looketh that way , and therfore cannot but wonder why our opinion should be alledged in this objection , and so his reader be led into expectation of some sufficient answer thereto , and then the answer which he returnes to be taken up in other matters , our opinion proposed in the objection , being wholly in his answer left untouched . if that saying of ours be not sound , why doth he not returne some answer ? if it be sound and good , why doth he make an objection of it , and so breed an apprehension in weake readers of its unsoundnesse , and put them in hope of a confutation , when no such thing is performed ? i leave it to the wise in heart to consider what this doth argue . neverthelesse , let us consider of what he doth returne for answer , page . first he saith , appeales being warranted by the counsell which iethro gave to moses — cannot but be naturall ? answ . suppose this be so , what can there be concluded hence , that makes against us ? cannot appeales be naturall , but the supremacie of synods over congregations must needs follow ? if there must be an highest , must it needs be yeelded that the synod and not the congregation is that highest ? i conceive this needs not to be yeelded at all , and therefore though appeales be naturall , i see not what is gained thereby . againe , he saith , god hath appointed that the supremacie should lye within the bounds of every free monarchy or state , so that there can be no appeale to any oecumenicall or catholike civill church , for that is against the independant power that god hath given to states . answ . let this be granted also , and are we not still where we were before ? is there in this any thing at all that doth make for the removall of our opinion , as himselfe hath see it down in his objection ? we may truly say we see it not . no , nor in that which doth follow , viz. but in the church it is farre otherwise , for god hath appoynted no vissible monarchy in his church , nor no such independency of policie within a congregation , classicall provinciall or nationall church . answ . for that which is said of a visible monarchy in the church , i confesse it is true , god hath appointed none such . but for the rest , of these words , sith they containe an expresse denyall of the supremacie of all ecclesiasticall iudicatures , except it be the generall councell , i would gladly know how our tenent afore expressed is disproved , or how the necessity of that consequence afore mentioned is at all cleered hereby . if there be no independencie of policie in congregations , nor yet in any synods exc●pt it be the oecumenicall , doth this prove that the supremacie doth lye in synods and not in the congregation ? nothing lesse : for how can our brother prove that it lyes in the one and not in the other , by saying as here he doth , that indeed it lyes in neither ? or how is that consequence made good , that if there must be appeales till we come to the highest , then the synod is the highest ? how is this i say made good by affirming , that neither the congregation nor the synod is the highest ? for my part i must confesse it passeth my understanding to conceive , how the denying of a thing should be the proving and cleering thereof . and yet except this be admitted , i know not how our apprehension in the matter we have in hand is at all disproved . for whereas we say , appeales may be granted and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations will not follow , mr. rutherford for the disproving of what wee apprehend herein , doth bring nothing in the place wee have in hand but only this , that the supremacie doth neither lye in the congregation nor in the synod . which is no disproving of us all , except as i said , that the denying of a thing may suffice for the confirming and cleering thereof . for i conceive if we be disproved the supremacie of synods must be proved and cleered , which here our brother doth not , but on the contrary denies the same . furthermore , if there be no independency of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall or nationall church , as here our brother affirmeth , then what shall become of that which he tels us elsewhere , viz. page . that that remedie of our saviour , tell the church , is not needfull in any church above a nationall ? for sure if there be no independencie of policie in any of the lesser churches , nor yet in the nationall church , one would thinke that of our saviour should be needfull in some church above the nationall . or if it be nor needfull in any church above nationall , then one would thinke there should be some indepencie of policie in the nationall church , or in some of the former . for my part i know not how this difficulty will be expedited , i meane how both these sayings of our brother can stand good , except we shall say that which i suppose he will not say , viz. that independencie of policie is no where . and yet i cannot see but this must be said , if both the other sayings stand good ? for if independencie of policie be neither in the nationall church nor in any church above it , nor in any church below it , i know not where we shall have it . againe , if there be no independencie of policie in any of the churches afore named , what shall we say to that passage where our brother doth verily professe , that he cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councell , affirming further , that there might be some meerly doctrinall power if such a councell could be had , and that is all , pag . for if there be no independencie of policie in any church below a generall councell , one would thinke there should be in the generall councill some power of iurisdiction to censure scandals , yea and an independant power too ▪ or if there be not such power in the generall councill , nor yet in the nationall church , nor in any church below the nationall , we must then say there is no independant power of iurisdiction to censure scandals in any church upon earth . which latter if it be not owned , as i conceive our brother will no● , i know not how the other two can both stand . though appeales be warranted both in church and state by the light of nature , yet appeales to exotique and forraigne judicatures is not warranted by any such light , but rather the contrary . answ . let this be granted also , and are we ever a whit neerer to the point , then before ? is this good arguing , appeales to exotique indicatures are not warrantable , ergo a synod and not the congregation is the supreame iudicature ? is this consequence strong and cleere ? if it be not , how is our tenent removed ? if our brother intend it not for a removall thereof , why is it brought in for answer to an objection proposed by himselfe as ours ? further , let this sentence be compared with the former immediately preceding , and more difficulties still arise . for in this he tels us we see , that appeales to forraigne judicatures are not warrantable ; and in the other he tels us as wee heard afore , that there is no independencie of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall , or nationall church . now to find how these things do agree , i am at a losse , for if there bee no independencie of policie in the congregation , nor the other churches mentioned , i should have thought , it might have been lawfull to have appealed from them to others . for why may there not bee appeales from them in whom no independen●ie of policie is seated ? yet now we are restrained from such appeales , for that all other iudicatures are accounted forraigne and exotique . so that of two sentences the one immediately following upon the other , the former tels us there is no independencie of policie in any of the churches mentioned , which are domesticque and neere , and the other tels us that other churches are so exotique and forraigne , that appeales to them are unwarrantable : and what to say for the reconciling of these things , i must confesse i find not . i grant it is true , appeales to exotique and forraigne iudicatures are not warrantable . but why are we not certified what iudicatures are to be accounted exotique and forraigne ? for here i conceive lyes the pinch of the question ; and unlesse this be determined , the thing in question is still left at uncertainty . for as in civill states there are many cities and townes which have independent power within themselves , as geneva , strasburgh , zuricke , basill , and many others , and appeales from any of these , though to the city or town next adjoyning , would be to a iudicature exotique or forraigne , so some are apt to conceive the like of congregationall churches . and therefore it had need to be cleered that appeales from such churches is not to exotique and forraigne iudicatures ; for if this be not cleered , the unlawfulnesse of appeales to forraigne and exotique powers may be granted , and the question will remaine uncleered . church appeales though warranted by the light of nature , yet it is supposed they be rationall , and grounded on good reason , as that either the matter belong not to the congregation , or then it bee certain or morally presumed the congregation will be partiall or unjust , or the businesse bee difficill and intricate ; and if appeales be groundlesse and unjust , neither christ nor natures light doth warrant them . yea in such case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth sometime in the congregation sometime in the classicall presbytery , so as it is unlawfull to appeale for illud tantum possumus quod jure possumus . answ . the short summe is thus much , that appeales are then lawfull when there is just ground and reason for them , otherwise they are unlawfull . now first of all how doth this prove ( for we would still keep to the point ) the necessity of that consequence whereof we speak afore , viz. that if appeales be lawfull , then there is a supremacie of syno●s over congregations . i conceive it is not proved hereby all ; but contrarily appeales may be granted lawfull , when there is just reason and ground for them , and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations is still uncle●red . nextly , it still remaines a question , who must be judge of the reasonablenesse of the appeale and of those cases that are put to shew when they are reasonable , viz. that the matter belongs not to the congregation and the rest that are named : and unlesse it be cleered to whom it belongs to judge these things , we are still left at uncertainty , in the maine matter , viz. in whom the supremacie doth lye , from whom we may not appeale . for to say as our reverend author doth , that in some case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth in the congregation , and sometimes it doth not : appeales when they are grounded upon good reason are warrantable , else they are not : when the matter belongs not to the congregation or the congregation will be partiall and unjust , or when the businesse is diffic●ll and intricate , then we may appeale from the congregation , else we may not , these things i say doe not cleere the matter at all , because still the question remaines who must be judge of these things , whether the party appealing , or the congregation from whom , or the synod to whom the appeale is made : and unlesse this be determined , the things mentioned alledged by our brother do afford us small help in the matter for the cleering of it . and therefore , what we said in the answer doth still for ought i see remaine sound , viz. that there must be some finall and supreame judgement that controversies may not by appeales after appeales be spun out in infinitum , and to determine where that supremacie doth lye , is the maine question , which unlesse it be determined , the usefulnesse of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales till you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and n●t the congregation is the highest is another . now whether our brother in that which we have hitherto heard have sufficiently cleered it unto us , that we may know where this supremacie doth lye , i leave it to the iudicious to consider . chap. viii . whether antioch , act. . had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had been able ; and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , doe prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . bvt though our author doe not cleere it to us where the supremacie doth lye yet in this pag , and . he useth an argument from the practise of the church of antioch , act. . and our own doctrine concerning the same to prove that it doth not lye in the congregation , which argument we are willing to consider . his words are those . that supremacie of power should bee in a congregation without any power of appealing , i thinke our brethren cannot teach . for when the church of antioch cannot judge a matter concerning the necessity of keeping moses law , they by natures direction , act. . . decree to send paul and barnabas and others to jerusalem , to the apostles and elders , as to an higher judicature , that there truth may be determined : and then he addeth that mr. tompson and my selfe do teach that the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty , had not light to judge thereof ( alledging for this in the margent the answer , chap. . page . ) ergo saith he , they must acknowledge appeales by natures light warrantable , as well as wee . answ . that appeales are warrantable , and warrantable by natures light till we come to the supreame judicatorie , this we deny not , but have formerly yeelded no lesse . but for that our brother here aymes at , viz. appeales from a congregationall church ( as not being supreame ) to another iudicatory , this we conceive is not proved by the example of the church of antioch , nor by any thing that we have written concerning the same and the reason it because antioch had right and authority to have ended the matter amongst themselves if ability had served thereto : and their sending to ierusalem for helpe may argue want of agreement , or imperfection of light , but argues no want of authority or right within themselves . for it is plain verse , that antioch did endeavour to have ended the matter amongst themselves , and had much disputation about it for that end , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem . now this endeavour doth argue their right ; for otherwise it had been sinfull , as being a presuming to do that which did not belong to them . this reason we have rendered afore in the place which our author alledgeth , and he doth not at all remove it ; and therefore we are still of the same mind as before , that antioch was not dependant upon the iurisdiction of other churches , but had independant power within themselves , as many may have who yet need the help of light from others , for their direction in using their power . great kings and monarchs have received light from their councellours without any impeac●ment of their independant power , which they have in themselves , and without any ascribing of that power to those their counsellours . as we said in the place alledged , antioch may send to ierusalem for help , and yet this sending neither prove right of iurisdiction in them who are sent unto , nor want of iurisdiction in them who do send . and therefore whereas our brother saith , antioch because of the difficulty of the controversie , had not light to judge thereof , ergo we must acknowledge appeales to be warrantable , we would rather argue thus , antioch wanted light , ergo counsell and light is to be sought elsewhere ; and thus we conceive the inference will hold : but to say , ergo there must be appeales from the congregation to others in matter of iurisdiction , this we conceive will not follow at all . no more then it will follow , kings or other supreame civill rulers must seek light and direction from their counsellours , ergo there lyes an appeale from them to those counsellours , which consequence none will maintain nor affirme . if the scriptures had said that antioch did never attempt to ●nd that controversie , as knowing that the ending thereof belonged not to them but to others : or if it had said , that the censuring of these obtruders of circumcision had been performed by them of jerusalem , and not by them of antioch as not belonging to antioch but to them of jerusalem , then our brother might have had some ground from antioch to prove the necessity or warrantablenesse of appeales from congregationall churches to other iudicatories : but such no such thing is said , we see not how this example can be any ground for the establishing of such appeales , or the taking away from congregationall churches their power of iurisdiction within themselves . especially , wee see not how this our brother can alledge the same for such a purpose , considering what himselfe hath written elsewhere in this learned treatise of his wherein he examines that answer of ours . two passages in his treatise i propound to consideration , which seeme to me to make for that independant or supreame power in congregations , which here he is disputing against , the one is that which we touched before in his page . where he saith that synods in case of neglect of presbyteriall churches are to command the particular churches whom it concerneth , to do their dutie , as in other particulars there named , so in excommunication of offenders ; and further that the synod , act. . is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstina●ie of these obtruders of circumcision . which i conceive is very truly spoken , and thereupon it followes that there was a supremacie of iurisdiction in that church of antioch , and no necessity of appealing from them to the iurisdiction of others . for ●ith the synods are only to command the churches to do their duty , and to remit the censure of offenders to the churches themselves to whom the offenders belong , it plainly appeareth thereby where the supremacie of iurisdiction doth lye . the other place is in his page . where we have these words , viz. the power of jurisdiction ordinary intensive and quo ad essentiam ecclesiae ministerialis , according to the intire essence of a ministeriall church , is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , as in a nationall . yea as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . now if there be such perfect & compleat power of iurisdiction in a single congregation , i know not how there can be such necessity of appeales from them to the iurisdiction of others as he is pleading for , nor how that supreame and independant power in congregations can be denyed , which here he disputeth against . for let this compleat and perfect power of iurisdiction be acknowledged as due to such churches , and appeales from them to other iurisdictions will be of small necessity or use . i know indeed this reverend author sayeth in the page last mentioned , and within a few lines of the words which i have here alledged , that a congregation is so a part of the presbytery that it hath not a whole intire compleat intensive power over its own members to excommunicate them — . and therefore the consociated churches must have a power over the members of a congregation . which words i confesse seeme not well to agree with the former , because in the one intire compleat intensive power is denyed to a congregation , and in the other the power of iurisdiction , ordinary intensive , is said to be as compleat and perfect in the congregation as in the great churches . but it is not the latter words but the former which i do stand upon ; and by them ( as i conceive ) the supremacie of congregations is established , and the necessity of appeales from them to other iurisdictions is cleerely takes away . for if the power of iurisdiction be as intire perfect and compleat in the congregation as in the greater churches , as our brother expresly affirmes it to be , i know not the reason why there must be appeales from the iurisdiction of the congregation unto the iurisdiction of those other churches . if the power spoken of were more imperfect and incompleat in the congregation , then it is in the other churches , then there might be more reason or ●ayrer pretence for those appeales : but sith our author confesseth it is no more intire compleat and perfect in these then in the congregation , but as compleat and perfect in the congregation as it is in the other , i am yet to seeke of a sufficient ground for the necessity of appeales from the iurisdiction in a congregation . for is it reasonable to appeale from one iudicatory to another , and yet the power of iurisdiction be as intire compleat and perfect in the former from which the appeale is made , as in the latter to which the cause is brought by such appeale ? it seemes by such appeales we are not like to be much helper , nor much to mend the matter above what it was before , and therefore the usefulnesse and necessity thereof is still uncl●●●● . i thinke the brethren erre in this to teach that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. . when the churches of syria and cicilia , to their knowledge were troubled with the like question as verse . may cleere , — i doubt much if they had power to determine a question that so much concerned all the churches . answ . it is not cleere from verse . nor from any part of the chapter as farre as i can find , that antioch did know that other churches were troubled with this question ; and if they had known it , i see nothing therein but they might notwithstanding lawfully end the matter so farre as concerned themselves . for when this question was started amongst them by such as came from judea and taught this corrupt doctrine at antioch , the text is very cleere verse , that they had much disputation amongst themselves to have ended the matter , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem : which disputation is an argument that they had right to have ended it , if ability had no● been wanting . and as for our brothers reason for the contrary taken from their knowledge that the other churches of syria and cicilia were troubled with the like question , there is not one word in the verse alledged to shew that antioch had knowledge of any such matter , nor is syria and cicilia once mentioned therein : and though they be mentioned verse . yet neither doth this verse declare that antioch had any knowledge that this question had ever troubled those other churches . say it be true that indeed they had been troubled therewith , and that the epistle from the synod doth intimate no lesse , this may prove that when the epistle came to be read at antioch , then antioch by this meanes might come to the knowledge thereof ; but all this doth not prove that antioch knew so much afore . and therefore they might endeavour to end the matter amongst themselves , as not knowing for any thing our author hath yet brought to the contrary , that any other churches besides themselves were troubled therewith . but suppose they had known so much , i see nothing in this to hinder but antioch might lawfully cleere up the truth in the question , and censure such of their church as should obstinately hold and teach that false doctrine , notwithstanding their knowledge that others had been troubled with the like doctrine and teachers . suppose a christian family be troubled with lying children , or servants , or such as are disobedient and undutifull in one kind or in another ; suppose they also knew that their neighbour families are troubled with the like , shall this knowledge of theirs hinder the parents or masters in such a family from censuring or correcting these that are under their government , according to their demerits ? if not , why shall antioch be hindered from censuring offending members of their church , only upon this ground because to their knowledge other churches are troubled with the like offenders ? a city or corporation is troubled with drunkards , with theeves , or other vicious and lewd persons , and knoweth that other cities or corporations are troubled with the like : a nationall church , as scotland for example , is troubled with obtruders of ceremonies , service booke , episcopacie or other corruptions , and knoweth that england or other churches are troubled with the like , shall scotland now be hindered from removing these corruptions , and the obtruders of them from amongst themselves , only upon this ground , because england to their knowledge is troubled with the like ? or shall the corporation ●ee hindered from punishing theeves and such other malefactors , only for this reason , because to their knowledge other corporations are troubled with the like lewd persons ? i suppose it is easie to see the insufficiency and invalidity of such consequences ? and therefore if antioch did know that other churches were troubled with the like offenders , as themselves were troubled withall , this needs not to hinder but they may determine questions that arise amongst themselves , and may censure such of their members as shall trouble the church or brethren therewith , and obstinately persist in so doing . this being considered withall , that in thus doing they do not go beyond their line , nor meddle with matters any farther but as they are within their compasse . for when divers churches are troubled with the like corruptions in doctrine or practise , and some one of those churches by using the key of doctrine or discipline or both , doth endeavour the removall of these corruptions , they do not hereby attempt and endeavour to remove them out of other churches ( which might be an appearance of stretching their line beyond their compasse ) but out of their own church , and only so farre as concernes themselves , and in so doing no man can justly say they meddle further then their power doth reach . but he gives another reason why antioch had not right to determine the question , and this is taken from the strong party that was in antioch against the truth , which was such as that they opposed paul and barnabas : concerning which he saith , that when the greatest part of a church as antioch is against the truth , as is cleere , act. . . he beleeveth in that they loose their jus , their right to determine eatenus in so farre ; for christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for truth ; and therefore in this , appeales must be necessary . answ . how is it cleere that the greatst part of the church at antioch was against the truth ? the text doth not say so much , but only this , that certain men which came from iudea , taught the brethren and said except ye be circumcised ye cannot be saved , and that paul and barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them about the matter , and that in the issue they determined that paul and barnabas and certaine others should go up to ierusalem about the question : thus much the scripture witnesseth , act. . , . but whether they that held that corrupt doctrine at antioch were the major or the minor part of the church , the text doth not expresse , except we shall say that where a false doctrine is taught by some , and greatly opposed and disputed against by others , there it must needs bee that the greatest part are tainted with that false doctrine , which wee thinke is no good consequence . and therefore whereas our author saith , the greatest part of this church was against the truth , and that so much is cleere from verse . i answer , first that i do not perceive this cleerenesse , neither from verse , nor from any other place of the chapter . nextly , suppose this were cleere , this may argue that they wanted ability and light to end the matter , but must it needs argue that they wanted right though they had been able ? or shall we say that they who want ability to doe things as they should be done , do therefore want right to ●●al● in them at all ? i conceive it will not follow , and the reason is because this right in churches is naturall , or connaturall to every church , and this want of ability is only accidentall , and therefore this latter cannot totally hinder the former . that light of government is naturall or connaturall to every church , our brother own words do testifie page . where he saith this , viz. supposing that christ have a visible church it is morall that she have power of government also , in so farre as she is a church ; yea , power of government upon this supposition is naturall or rather connaturall . and in page , he saith as was alledged before , that the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive — . is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , or in a nationall ; yea , as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . and in page . he saith , that to a congregation christ hath given by an immediate flux from himselfe a politicall church power intrinsci●ally in it , derived from none but immediately from iesus christ : and the like he saith of a presbyteriall church . now whether antioch was a congregationall church as we hold , or a presbyteriall as is holden by this our brother , yet it is cleere by those words of his here alledged , that being essentially a church ; it had a politicall church power intrinscically within it selfe , yet a perfect and compleat power of iurisdiction , yea and such a power as was naturall or connaturall unto her , as she was a church . but now the light of knowledge whereby they should be enabled well to use this power , did not adde any power unto them which they had not before , not did the want of it , being but accidentall , deprive them of that power , which was intrinscicall , essentiall and connaturall unto them as they were a church of christ . onely this want did hinder their ability to expresse their power well , but their right as being a thing connaturall did still remaine . our brother hath a saying or two about the civill power , which by proportion may well illustrate this that i am speaking o●●bo it the church-power . in one place he saith thus , there is a two-fold power in a king , one in a king as a king , and this is a like in all , and ordinary regall , coactive : whether the king be an heathen , a turke , or a sound believing christian : there is another power in a king as such a king , either as a propheticall king as david and solomon or as a christian believing king. and of this latter he saith , that it is not a new regall power , but potestas execuliba , a power or gracious ability to execute the kingly power , which he had before as a king ; page . &c. . ●ow why may it not be said in like sort , there is in a church two-fold power , one in a church as it is a church , and this is a like in all true churches of christ , whether the church in this or that particular question have light to discerne , and hold the truth , or otherwise : another in a church , as it is sound believing church , holding the truth in such or such question ; and this is but only a gracious ability to exercise the power which they had before , not adding to them any new power at all ? againe , in his page . he hath these words . though the king were not a christian magistrate , yet hath he a kingly power to command men as christians , and it is by accident that he cannot in that state command christian duties , and service to christ ; because he will not , and cannot command those dutyes remaining ignorant of christ ; even as a king ignorant of necessary civill dutyes cannot command them , not because he wanteth kingly power to command these civill things , for undeniably he is a iudge in civill things , but because he hath not knowledge of them . and may we not say in like sort , though a church want the knowledge of the truth , in some particular question , yet they have a church power to determine such questions , & to command obedience therein , and it is by accident they cannot in that state determine rightly , because they will not , being ignorant of the truth therein , not because they want church-power to determine such matters , but because they have not the knowledge of them . againe a little after in the same p. he tels us , that christianity addeth no new fatherly power to a father over his children , nor giveth a new husband right to the husband , once an heathen over his wife ; for an heathen father is as essentially a father over his children as a christian father , and an heathen husband an heathen master &c. are all as essentially husband , masters , &c. as are the christian husbands , masters , &c. and may we not as well say , soundnesse of knowledge in such or such a particular question addeth no new church power to a christian church over their own members , nor giveth a new church right over them which they had not before ; for a church that wanteth such knowledge is as essentially a church , invested with church power over her members as is another church ? for ought i perceive the cases are alike ; and if soundnesse of knowledge do not give to a church their church-right in this or that question , how can want of that knowledge deprive them of that right ? sure one would thinke the whole substance of christianity might do as much for the adding of kingly right , fatherly right , husband right , &c. as soundnesse of knowledge in some one particular question , for the adding of church right ; & that the want of all christianity should be as available for taking away the kingly right , the fatherly right , &c. as the want of knowledge in one particular point for the taking away of church-right ; and sith we have our brothers own testimony cleer and full for the one , it seems to me the cases are so parallel and proportionable , that the other is unavoidable : i meane thus , sith in the one case the whole substance of christianity doth not give power , nor the want thereof take away the same by our brothers own teaching , i know not how in the other case soundnesse of knowledge in one particular question should give power or right , & want of such knowledge take away the same . and so for antioch in particular , if it were as our brother supposeth that the greater part of them did hold against the truth in that question about circumcision , i see not how this could deprive them of their church right which they had before . as for our brothers reason that christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for the truth , this saying i confesse is very true , but doth not suffice for the purpose for which hee brings it , viz. to prove that antioch being ignorant of the truth in that question about circumcision , or holding against the truth therein did thereby lose their church right to determine . for if this reason be good , then a man may conclude against that power in heathen kings , parents , and husbands , to governe their subjects , children and wives ; which our brother , as we heard afore , hath granted and taught : for suppose that antioch were ignorant of the truth in that particular is it not cleere that the kings , parents , and husbands mentioned are ignorant of the truth in many more matters ? and it antioch do hereupon loose their right , because christ hath given no power to determine against the truth but for the truth , how will it be avoided but by the same reason , ●he kings and the others mentioned must likewise lose their right to governe their own subjects and families ? for the lord gives no right , i hope , to pagans against the truth , no more then he doth unto churches . and therfore if the reason be valid and strong in the one case , and for the purpose , for which our brother brings it , it seemes to be as strong in the other case also , which shall be contrary to what our brother himselfe doth teach . in a word ▪ churches and antioch in particular have right to determine questions , and they ought to determine only according to the truth : they have formally a right to determine , and when their determinations are according to truth , then they will ●ind vi mat●●i● which else they will not . they have right to determine in fore humano , and if their determinations be for matter agreeable to truth , they will be ratifyed in foro div●●o , but not else . now our brothers arguing doth seeme to confound these two ; and because of the latter which is freely granted , he would conclude against the former , which we thinke is not good reasoning ; but on the contrary do still thinke , that though churches ought to give out no determinations but such as are agreeable to truth , and that otherwise their determinations , in respect of the matter of them will not bind before god , yet for all this they may have right formally and in foro humano to judge , and to determine of such things . moreover , if this were granted for true , that antioch when they are against the truth do lose their right to determine controversies , yet we are not hereby much neerer to an issue , unlesse it be determined withall who must be judge whether they be against the truth or no , and the reason is because if they be not against the truth but for it , then i hope , it will be granted that they doo not lose their right at all . the question therefore still remaines , who hath this ministeriall power to iudge whether this or that church , antioch or any other be against the truth or for it ; and unlesse this be cleered we are but where we were before . but to draw towards an end of this passage about the church of antioch : whether they had right to determine controversies when ability failed , or whether they did when lose that right , i will here transcribe a few words of our brother as i find them in his second , . page . wherein he either cleerely yeeldeth the cause , and saith the same that we do or i am much mistaken . the words are these , there is a difference between ability to judge , and right or power to judge . a presbyteriall church , ( and he disputeth in six pages together to prove antioch such a one , page . . &c. sequ . ) may have right , jus , and ecclesiastic●ll law to judge of a point , to the judging whereof they want ability : therefore de facto , it belongeth to an higher synod where more learned men are , though de jure the presbytery may judge it . these words i wish to be well considered . for whereas in the place we have been speaking of , he saith antioch , the greater part of them being against the truth , did lose their jus , their right to determine , for which as wee have heard , he gives this reason , because christ hath given no right and power to determine against the truth but for it , yet now wee see he grants distinction between ability and right , and saith , a presbyteriall church may still retaine this latter of their right , even then , when they want the other of ability . which two sayings whether they do perfectly agree , and whether in the latter of them he do not plainly come up to us , against whom he hath been disputing in the former , i leaue it to the wise in heart , and especially to himselfe to consider . for , for my part i must confesse that these two sayings , a presbyteriall church as antioch may have right , jus to judge a point , to the judging whereof they may want ability ; and , antioch a presbyteriall church wanting ability did thereby lose their right , or jus to determine the point , these two i say , are such sayings as are not easie for me to reconcile . lastly , if it be said our brother doth not deny unto antioch , or a church in error all power simply to determine , but only to determine tali mode , that is , to determine against the truth ; for his words are , they lose their jus their right eatenus , in so far . i answer , he hath such a word indeed , as eatenus , in so farre : but if any shall say he meant no more in this dispute , but only that such a church hath no right to determine against the truth , i conceive that he that shall so say , shall therein impute some fault unto our brother , even the fault of wresting mr. tompsons tenent and mine , and suggesting against us unto his reader , as if we had held such a thing as we never wrote nor thought . for it is plain , that our brother in his pag. . is disputing against us ; for he saith , that we teach the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty had not light to judge thereof , and sets down master tompsons name and mine as the men that so teach , in answer , page . and a few lines after he saith , i thinke the brethren erre in this , to teach , that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. . and then hee gives two reasons for the contrary . so that it is manifest that he intends this dispute against us . now what have we said in this matter ? have we delivered any such thing , that antioch had right to determine against the truth ? let the answer be viewed in the place which he alledgeth , viz. page . and i am sure no such grosse tenent will be there found , no nor any where else in our writing . that which we have said , is this , that antioch had right to have determined the matter if ability had served thereto : but for right to determine against the truth , we never spake one word that soundeth that way . our brother therefore intending this dispute against us , and plainly expressing so much , and our tenent being no other then as i have said , it must therefore needs follow that his intendment is , that antioch had no right to determine that matter . but for right to determine against the truth , he cannot confute such a tenent as ours , we never having delivered any such thing , but he must withall be culpable of manifest mistaking and mis-reporting of us to the world ; and we are , and must be slow to believe that a man of such worth would willingly do us such wrong . it remains therefore , that right to determine and not right to determine against the truth , is the thing which he oppos●t● as ours , and therefore it is that in this sence and meaning i have here applyed my answer . the 〈…〉 thus much ; that antioch had right to determine against the 〈…〉 that may soone be con●uted , but the tenent is none of ours : that 〈…〉 to determine , is indeed our tenent , and whether this be con●uted 〈…〉 , let the wise and iudicious consider . chap. ix . whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall doe make the gospell more difficultive then the law. of excommunication by a church that hath only three elders , and of doing things sudainly . in the latter end of his page meaning mr t●mpson and me , and alledging page , . of the answer . he writes that we say our opposites do much judaize in that they multiply appeales upon appeales , from a congregation to a classis , then to a synod , then to a nationall assembly , then to an oec●●●●nicke councell ; and this way while the world endureth causes are never determined , and synods cannot alwayes be had ; even as in ierusalem the supreame iudicature was farre remote from all proselites , as from the eunuch of ethiopia , act. . and from the remote●● parts of the holy land : but god hath provided better for us in the new testament , where every congregation which is at hand may decide the controversie : and then , page . he subjoyneth his answer . answ . though i deny not but some of the things here alledged are written by us in the pa●●● nam●d , yet that they are written for the purpose which our brother expresseth , viz. to shew that our brethren of the opposite judgement do much iudaize , that i do utterly deny . for the places being viewed will plainly witnesse that wee bring the things alledged for another end , viz. to shew whether the way that is called independencie , do make the people ( as some have thought of it ) more defective and improvident then their law. for this being objected against that way , wee in answer thereto do shew by sundry particulars , that it is not that way that is justly culpable in this respect , but the way of our brethren of the other iudgement ; one way on the one side making the state of christians in these dayes in some things equall to the iewes , and in other things more excellent ; and on the other side the way of our brethren making our condition in many things more defective then was the condition of the iewes . so that ( not iudayzing but ) making our condition more defective then the iewes , is the thing which we here note in the doctrine of our brethren . nor do i see how our brother in his answer doth free their doctrine and way from being justly culpable in this respect . if we had intended the thing which he reporteth , we would never have used such a reason as he truly report● us to use , viz. that by appeales upon appeales causes according to our brethrens way may be so protracted as never to be determined nor ended . for this reason hath neither strength nor colour of strength for such a purpose , as he saith we bring it for , inasmuch as it is well known , that the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes among them . and therefore to say that our brethren do iudaize , and then to give that for a reason which doth shew that the iewes and they are very unlike , the iewes having a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of cruses , and they having none , were to shew our selves very irrationall or worse : end why our brother should put such a thing upon us , we being no wayes guilty thereof , we do not know . but we desire that our reason may be applyed to our own conclusion , to which we did and do apply it , and not to this other expressed by our brother , which indeed is none of ours , and then we are content that rationall and judicious readers may judge whether or no there be any sufficient weight therein . which that they may more readily do , i have here recollected the same into this short summe , that they may briefly behold it with one view , viz if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very farre remote from many of them , and in the congregationall way be more convenient and neere at hand , then the congregationall way is in some things equall to the iewes and in other things more excellent . but the first is true in all the particulars , and therefore the second is true also . againe , if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the way of our brethren hath not : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes and the way of our brethren hath not : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very remote from many of them , and synods among our brethren are the same , then the way of our brethren is in some things as defective as the iewes , and in other things more defective then theirs . but the first is true in all the particulars of it , and therefore the second is true also . both the assumptions in all the branches thereof , i conceive are cleerely proved in the answer in the pages which our brother doth alledge , and whether the consequence be good let the wise judge . having thus reduced our argumentation to its own proper and genuine shape , let us now consider of mr. rutherfords answer thereto . first , saith he , the speedinesse of ending controversies in a congregation is badly comprised with the suddainnesse and temerity of delivering men to satan upon the decision of three elders , without so much as asking advise of any classes of elders , and with deciding questions deepe and grave which concerneth many churches , which is a putting of a private sickle in a common and publicke harvest . answ . if advise from other churches may be had , we never spake word for doing weighty matters without the same , but in such cases it is both our practise and advise to make use thereof , and therefore this delivering men to satan in way of temerity or rashnesse toucheth not us whose opinion and practise is other wise . as for suddainnesse , i conceive if the same be sometimes accompanyed with temerity and rashnesse , and so worthy to be blamed , yet not alwayes : for in the reformation of the house of god in the dayes of hezekiah , it is said , that the thing was done suddainly . chron. . . where suddainnesse doth not signifie any sinfull temerity or r●shnesle . but contrarily doth testifie gods great goodnesle that had so prepared the people to so good a worke : for this cause this suddainnesse was to hezekiah , and gods people an occasion and ground of great joy and gladnesse , which temerity could not have been . and therefore suddainnesse and temerity must not alwayes be confounded and coupled together , as if they were the same . though hasty delivering of men to satan without due consideration be not good , yet overlong delay of due proceeding against delinquents is bad also , for the holy ghost tels us because sentence against an evill worke is not executed speedily , therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evill , eccl. . . for which cause execute judgement in the morning , that is to say speedily is sometimes expresly required , jer. . . which being spoken of justice to be executed by civill authority doth hold by proportion and like reason in ecclesiasticall censures , for as much as speedinesle is a duty , and delayes are daangerous in the one case as well as in the other . whereas our author thinkes much that excommunication should proceed upon the decision of three elders , as we know nothing but a congregation may have more elders then the three , if god provide them fit men and the numerousnesse of the congregation so require , in which case our author saith nothing to the contrary , but they may have power to excommunicate , so if they have but three , we know nothing in this , but they may have power to excommunicate notwithstanding , since himselfe teacheth , due right . page . that the iewes had their congregationall churches as we have , and had their meeting in their synagogues , not only for doctrine , but also for discipline and excommunication ; which if it be so , it seemes there might be excommunication by as small a number as three , unlesse it could appeare that in every synagogue the elders and rulers in it were a greater number then is here mentioned , which is more then i do remember to be expressed in scripture . yea and further he tels us , that the inferiour iudicatures in israel had power of life and death , page . now the iudges in these inferiour iudicatures though they must never be under that number of three , yet they did not alwayes exceed the same , for ought that doth appeare . and if three iudges had power of life and death , why may not a congregation with three elders have power of excommunication ? moreover , in his page . he gives us these words for a proposition , that it floweth connaturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of church to exercise jurisdiction over all its own members ; to which those words do also agree , page . viz. the power and right to discipline is a propriety essentiall to a church and is not removed from it till god remove the candlesticke , and the church cease to be a visible church : and in page . hee affords us these words for an assumption , that a congregation is a church , wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church : and hence the conclusion is obvious , that a congregation may exercise iurisdiction over all it own members : and in as much as a congregation in which are but three elders , is a congregation , it followeth that a congregation in which are but three elders may exercise such iurisdiction . this conclusion our author cannot deny in as much as it necessarily and directly followeth from premises which are both his own . yea in his page . h● saith , that this is a principle of church policie , that every politicke body of christ hath power of church government within it selfe . either therefore a congregation with only three elders is no politicke body of christ , or else it must have power of church government within it selfe . besides , if the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive be according to the entire essence of a ministeriall church be as compleat and perfect in one single congregation , as in a provinciall , nationall , or catholike church as our author saith it is p. . it is then a marvell why such a congregation having onely three elders , may not have power to excommunicate . lastly , his words are expresse , page . where there are not many churches consociated , then ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation . if therefore a congregation have not above three elders , yet being not consociated with other churches , it may lawfully excommunicate , by his own grant . for deciding questions that concerne many churches , if they decide them no further but onely as they concerne themselves , this is no putting a private sickle in a common and publike harvest , but a medling with matters onely so farre as they doe concerne themselves . secondly , he saith , all appeales without warrant from christs will we condemne , as the abuse of appeales to a court which is known shall never be , page . answ . if appeales without warrant from christ will be condemned , why are wee not told what appeales they are , that have the warrant of christs will , and what appeales have not ? for such a generall word a● this , of the warrant of christs will , without some further and more particular explication doth leave the matter as darke as it was before . if the meaning be , that only such appeales are unwarrantable as are made to a court which is known shall never be , and that all others are warrantable , then it will follow that appeales to generall councels and all other courts , except only from a generall councell are warrantable , for who doth certainely know that a generall councell will never be ? and so by this meanes the classes , 〈◊〉 synod , and the nationall church are all deprived of supremacie , and independencie of iurisdiction as well as the congregacion . thirdly , he saith , antiochs appeale to a synod miles distant as our brethren say , was no judaizing but that which paul and the apostles were guilty of as well as we . answ . whether antioch and jerusalem were miles distant or no as we have never affirmed so much , so i will not stand now to inquire . but this i stand upon , that no scripture doth witnesse that antioch did appeale to jerusalem in the point of iurisdiction , about which our question doth lye , if they did appeale to them for a doctrinall decision or determination of the question , that nothing hindereth our cause who do not deny such a doctrinall power in synods . but their power of iurisdiction is the thing that should be proved . lastly , if this example of antioch doe prove that there may bee and ought to bee appeales from congregations to synods , though those synods be miles distant , then that which wee said in the answer is here confessed to be true : viz. that according to our brethrens iudgement the state of the church in point of discipline is as defective and burdensome in the time of the gospell , as it was in the dayes of the old testament . for as then the supreame iudicatory at jerusalem was many miles distant from such as dwelt in the furthest parts of the holy land , and specially from the proselites that dwelt in other countries , so here our author seemes to yeeld that in these dayes of the new testament there must or may be appeales to synods , though they be miles distant . i hope then if others blame our way for making the gospell as defective and improvident as the law , or more defective then it , yet this our brother will not do so , but on the contrary will acknowledge for us and with us , that the way which himselfe pleads for , is more justly culpable in this respect . fourthly , he saith , matters concerning many churches must be handled by many . answ . this may be granted in a safe sence without any prejudice at all unto our cause , for we are well content that so farre as they concerne many they may be handled by many , so that each congregation may have liberty to deale in them so farre as they concerne themselves . and thus you have all which mr. rutherford hath brought against that passage of ours wherein we say it is not our way but theirs , that doth make the gospell more defective then the law , instead whereof he is pleased to make us say that they doe iudaize ; but for eleering their way from that which wee object against the same , or for convincing out way to be guilty thereof as by some hath been objected , which is the thing in question in the place by him alledged , for ought i perceive there is nothing in the foure particulars of his answer , that doth any thing availe to either of these : for if a rash delivering of men to satan have more evill in it then speedy ending of controversies hath good ▪ if appeales without warrant from christs will , be unlawfull : if antioch did appeale to a synod miles distant , and if matters concerning many churches must be ended by many , which foure particulars are the whole substance of his answer , what is there in all this ( for i would gladly apply his answers to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the thing in question , what is there i say in all this that 〈◊〉 convince our way to be more defective then the way under the old testament ? or that doth cleere the way of our brethren from being truly culpable thereof ▪ let all the evill that can be found in rash delivering men to satan be extended to the utmost , and let the rest of the foure particulars be granted , doth all this sufficiently cleere it that the way which we plead for is more defective , or the way of our brethren more perfect and excellent , then the way that was used under the law ? if they do not amount to the cleering of this , they do not come up to cleere the thing in question , which for ought i perceive doth still remaine as it was notwithstanding all that our brother here brings . chap. x. whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise intirenesse of iurisdiction as well as one that hath none : and whether a man may take on him the whole ministery having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptizing or ministring the lords supper . the next place where i find our reverend brother dealing with the answer , is in page , . where disputing that there was a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , he saith it is objected by us ( alledging the answer , page . ) that if a church in an iland by divine institution and so the first congregation as ierusalem which did meete in solomons porch had once an intire power of iurisdiction , though in an extraordinary case , the case is ordinary , as in the dominion of wales there is scarce a congregation to be found within , or miles . . suppose the case were extraordinary and rare , may they violate the ordinary rules of christ ? for so some may thinke and say that though according to ordinary rules , baptisme and the lords supper must be dispensed only by men and by ministers , yet in the want of these the one may be dispensed by a woman or mid-wife , and both of them by such as are no ministers . and then hee subjoyneth his answer . answ . our authors scope and intention being to prove a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , i cannot apprehend a good reason , why now he should fall upon the place of the answer alledged , in as much at the place makes not any mention of ierusalem at all , nor of any presbyteriall church there , either one way or other . but it seemes he was willing to go something out of his way that so he might have a saying to the answer , yet if it must needs be so , i could have desired that the words of the answer might have been kept , without making alteration by leaving some things out , and putting others in of his own accord , and by mentioning others with another face then was ever intended by us . for though he is pleased to mention a church in an iland and the first founded congregation at ierusalem , in his objection which he● brings in under mr. tompsons name and mine , yet he that shall peruse the place will find that neither of these are once mentioned by us at all , and why then they should be brought in as ours i do not know . and for the former part of our answer , wherein we show that for a christian congregation to want neighbour congregations to whom they may with conveniency have recourse , and not so unusuall as some may imagine , we do not only alledge for that end the dominion of wales as our brother doth report , but also the remoter parts of the north , and specially the state of things in times and places of generall persecution and generall prophanenesse , and new plantations in heathen countries ; all which our brother doth omit , as if wee had not mentioned any of them . and whereas we mention the scarcity of congregations in the remoter parts of wales and of the north , as intimated by our reverend brother mr. herle in that learned and loving discourse of his , whereto we doe apply our answer , mr. rutherford concealeth that we do mention this , as the apprehension or intimation of another , and instead thereof makes bold to set it downe under our name , as if we had delivered it as our own . all which alterations , omissions and additions are such as wee for our parts would not willingly have made the like in any worke of his nor of any other man. for let such liberty as this be taken in repeating what men do speake or write , and misapprehension of their true ●ntent and meaning must needs be bred hereby in the minds of all those that shall read or heare such reports and beleeve the same . neverthelesse , let us consider what our brother doth returne in his answer . we thinke saith he , a ministery and discipline more necessary to a congregation in a remote iland , or to the church of ierusalem before they increase to such a number as cannot meet for their numerous multitude in one congregation , then the sacraments when there be no ministers to dispense them . answ . would not one thinke by th●se words , and the other laid down in the objection , that we had spoken something of a church in an iland , and of the church in jerusalem ? else why should these be objected , and answered as ours ? but th truth is we have not spoken one word either of the one or the other of these particulars : which will plainly appeare to him that shall view the place . something wee have spoken in the generall of a congregation that wants neighbours , which we did being thereunto led by our reverend brother mr. herle , but of a church in an iland , and of the church at ierusalem in particular , of which mr. rutherford heere speaks , of these we have said nothing . second , the former part of our answer , that for a congregation to want neighbours is not so unusuall as some may imagine , this mr. rutherford wholly passeth over in silence , only he propounds it in his objection in such sort as we have heard , and so leaves it , whereby it seemes he yeelds the thing . and thereupon it followes , that intirenesse of iurisdiction in a congregation must be yeelded frequently lawfull , it being frequently seene , that congregations want neighbours in which case their intirenesse of iurisdiction is not denyed . third , for the second part of our answer , we thus expresse our selves therein . viz. that we suppose it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in extraordinary cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , whereof wee render the reason , least some body doe thence inferre the lawfulnesse of ministring sacraments by non-ministers , in case ministers be wanting . this is that which we have said in this matter . if therefore mr. rutherford would take away what we have said herein , he must say it is not good nor needfull to take such heed , but men may yeeld it lawfull in such cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , and never need to take heed how farre they yeeld therein . this indeed were contradictory to what we have said , and if this be once cleered for truth , then i must confesse our saying is cleerely disproved . but the cleering of this we hope our brother will never attempt : sure yet he hath not done it , and so our saying yet remaines as it was . fourth , whereas he saith he thinkes a ministery and discipline more necessary in the cases he speaks of , then sacraments and there be no ministers , though this be not directly opposite to what we have said , yet because i would consider of every thing wherein he seemes to ayme at us , therefore i am willing to consider of this also . our reverend brother thinkes discipline in the cases mentioned more necessary then sacraments : and yet in his page , . handling that question , whether discipline be a marke of the visible church , and laying down sundry distinctions about the same , hee gives us these severall propositions in termes : first , care to exercise discipline may be wanting in a true church . second , right discipline is not necessary to the essence of a visible church as a city may bee without wals , a garden without a hedge . third , the exercise of discipline may be wanting , and the church a true visible church . fourth , the church may retaine the essence and being of a visible church , and yet have no discipline in actuall use or little , in which place he cites and approves the judgement of parker , cartwright and others ; who make discipline necessary only to the wel-being of the church , as being not indifferent but commanded in the word and necessary in respect of its end . now if this be all the necessity that is in discipline , how is discipline more necessary then sacraments ? for may not as much bee said of them as here is said of discipline ? are not sacraments necessary to the well-being of the church , as being commanded in the word , as well as discipline is ? and serving for excellent ends , as well as discipline doth ? i suppose it will n●● be denyed , and therefore the necessity of discipline above sacraments doth not yet appeare . especially if that be considered withall which our brother teacheth else-where . viz. in his second p. . & sequ . where he tels us , that sacraments are not only declarative signes , but also reall exhibitive seales of grace , having a causality in them to make a thing that was not , and so excelling all civill seales which do adde no new lands to the owner of the charter sealed therewith . now if sacraments be thus excellent and effectuall , how is it that in the place wee have in hand , discipline is made more necessary then they ? for a greater elogie then here hee gives to sacraments , i suppose himselfe would not give unto discipline . yea in p. he expresly affirmes , that preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of the visible church . but of discipline i conceive he will not say the same , sure it is in the page following distinguishing betwixt notes of the church which are necessary ad●sse , to the very being of a visible church , and such as are necessary only ad bene esse , to the well-being thereof , he expresly makes discipline a worke or note of this second sort , and as we heard ere-while , he in page expresly affirmes it is not necessary to the essence of a church . and therefore it is some marvell why now 〈◊〉 makes discipline more necessary then sacraments . but he gives us two reasons of this greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments . first , that intire power of discipline in a congregation that wants neighbours is not extraordinary second , that there is no such morall necessity of sacraments , as there is of discipline , page . concerning the former his words are these , viz. that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may possibly be extraordinary , but that in such a case they have intire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons is not extraordinary . wherein first of all i observe a difference between him and our reverend brother mr. herle , who having granted that where there is no consociation or neighbour-hood of congregations , there a single congregation must not be denyed intirenesse of iurisdiction , doth presently adde that the case is extraordinary , and so fals not within the compasse of the question of the ordinary rule of church-government : independencie of churches , p. . plainly confessing that the case is extraordinary , whereas mr. rutherford here saith it is not . second , as he expresly differs from mr. herle , so it is considerable whether his words do well agree with themselves . for saith he , that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may be extraordinary , but that in such case they have entire power of iurisdiction of discipline within themselves , to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary . which saying needs good explication . for it seemes hard to conceive how the power and actions of any subject or efficient should be more usuall and ordinary then it s very being and subsistance : which yet must needs bee , if this stand good that the being of a church in an iland is extraordinary , and yet the power of such a church to excommunicate is usuall and ordinary third , if their power of discipline , yea intire power be in the case expressed or●●●ary , shall we then say that if the case ●e otherwise so that a church be not alone but have neighbours , entirenesse of power in such a case is extraordinary ? it seemes a● must ●ay 〈◊〉 , or else wee must say that intirenesse of power in both cases is ordinary . if this latter be said , it is as much as we desire : for then i hope it must not be a small 〈◊〉 ordinary matter , that must hinder a church that hath neighbours from exercising 〈…〉 ●●●●diction within themselves , no more then a church that lives alone , 〈…〉 power being ordinary in them both . for if it be so in them both , in the one as well as in the other , i know not why any small or ordinary matter should hinder the one church any more then the other from the use and exercise of such entire power . if we say that entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours is extraordinary , though in a church that is alone it be ordinary , besides that such a saying sounds harshly and seemes very improbable , we shall by this meanes make cases extraordinary to be very frequent & usuall , in as much as all men know it is very usuall for congregationall churches to have neighbours : and so if entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours be extraordinary , it will follow that extraorninary power is very usuall and frequent ; so that inconveniences on each side do seeme inevitably to follow against our brothers cause , upon this which here he affirmeth , that entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . but let us here his reason in the subsequent words , why this entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . for it floweth saith he , continually from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its own members . and i suppose he must meane this of iurisdiction entire and compleat , for of this is the question , and a few lines afore , he expresly cals it entire power of discipline , whole and entire within themselves . now if this be true which here is said , as for my part i conceive no other of it , that it floweth connaturally from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church to exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , then it will follow that a church that hath neighbours as well as a church that hath none must have this entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree to the one as well as to the other , to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that is alone . our author tels us page . that a congregation in an iland is a church properly so called , and hath the essentiall notes of a visible church agreeing to it , and wants nothing of the being and essence of a church . and if this be true of a church that is alone , shall we thinke it is not true of a church that hath neighbours ? doth the accession of neighbours to a congregation take away from such a congregation the essence of a church which it had before ? i conceive none will so say . and if every church to which agreeth the essence of a church may exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , as our brother doth acknowledge , it followeth unavoidably thereupon that all congregationall churches , such as have neighbours and such as have none may exercise such entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree unto them all . vnlesse he will deny the essence of a church to a congregation which hath neighbours , which hee freely yeeldeth to a congregation which is alone , he must grant entirenesse of iurisdiction unto them both , because he grants it to the one upon this reason , that the essence of a church doth agree thereunto , which reason if it agree to both , how can i● be avoided but entirenesse of iurisdiction must be in both ? and how can it be affirmed or imagined that a congregation having the essence of a church afore and have neighbours , should lose this essence of a church when neighbours are added to it ? a family having the essence of a family now it is alone , doth not lose this essence by meanes of other families added . nor doth a city that is such , as it is alone lose the essence of a city by the accesse of other cities : and the same might be said of a corporation , a province , a kingdome , or any other society whatsoever . and that it should be otherwise with a congregationall church , that it should lose the essence of a church as other neighbours churches do arise , doth seeme very strange and unreasonable . and let the essence of a church be still retayned by such a congregation , as i conceive it must , and then intirenesse of iurisdiction must not be denyed to such a congregation , sith it doth flow connaturally from every church to which the essence of a church doth agree . if there bee no more consociated with that church that is by accident , and an extraordinary exigence of gods providence . as a master of a family is to educate his children in the feare of god , but if god take all his children from him by death , he doth not transgresse the ordinary rule of educating his children in the feare of god , as he hath none . answ . if this comparison doe suit the present purpose and case in hand , then this master of a family is a congregation , and these his children are the members of other congregations : and so as a master of a family needs not to educate his children in gods feare , when they are all taken from him by death , so a congregation needs not to governe the members of other congregation as there are no other congregation extant , but it selfe is left alone in an iland . in which kind of arguing sundry things may be excepted against . as fir●● of all that there should be such power in a congregation as in a master of a family over his own children , which needs a good deale of proofe afore it may be yeelded , in as much as the power of the one is plainly and plentifully taught in the scripture , as eph. . . col. . deut. . . deut. . and many other places . but i desire one cleere place of scripture , in all the book of god either old testament or new , to shew the like power in a congregationall church , over the members of other churches . againe , when a master of a family hath all his children taken from him by death , he hath then no children of his own to governe , but wants a congregationall church & is left alone in an iland , the presbytery of that congregation is left alone , but have still the members of that congregation whom they may and ought to guide and governe in the feare of god , which is another particular wherein the comparison failes . but though the similitude as mr. rutherford hath laid it down , doth not confirme his purpose , yet i conceive it may be ▪ so framed and applyed as that it may well serve for the weekning thereof , thus ; a master of a family having ( when that family is alone ) entire power to governe his family in the feare of god , when other families do arise that become neighbours neere adjoyning , he is not by this meanes deprived of the power which he had before , but still retaines the same entire and compleate as formerly it was : even so the presbytery of a congregationall church having ( when that congregation is alone , ) entire power of iurisdiction over its own members , is not when neighbour congregation do arise , deprived by this meanes of the power which it had before , but still retaines the same entire as formerly it was . againe , though when god takes away a mans children by death , he is no longer bound to educate and governe those children in the feare of god , yet as long as his children live with him in his family , it is not the sitting down of other families neere by him that can take away this power from him , or discharge him of this duty : even so , though when members of a congregation be taken away by death or otherwise , the congregation or its presbytery doth no longer stand charged or bound with the oversight and government of such members yet as long as they live in the congregation , it is not the arising of other congregations neere to them that can free them from the power wherewith they were invested , nor from the duty wherewith they were formerly charged towards such members , thus the comparison runs even , and we see our brothers cause is not a little disadvantaged thereby . but as he hath laid it down , it doth so apparantly faile that i do not perceive how it can afford him any helpe at all . this argument supposeth that the congregation hath no power of excommunication at all , either compleat or incompleate , as the midwife hath no power to baptize , either compleate or incompleate . answ . suppose a congregation have an incompleate power when they have neighbours , how shall it appeare that when they are alone their power is now compleat ? or how will it be avoided but by the like reason , one elder alone may excommunicate in case there be no other elders to joyne with him ? for plain it is , that one elder when their is a full presbytery or classis hath an incompleate power , though not a compleat . and yet i hope this incompleat power in one elder when there are other elders joyned with him , will not warrant him to exercise a power compleat when he is alone , because such a power must be exercised by a church , with one elder alone cannot be . and if one elder having an incompleat power when he is joyned with others , may not exercise a compleat power when he is alone , how will the incompleat power of a congregation when they have neighbours ( suppose that in such case their power were indeed incompleate ) how will this i say warr●nt that congregation when they are alone to exercise a compleat power ? for ought i see , the compleat power of the congregation is no more warranted upon this ground , then the like power of one elder upon the same ground , the cases being alike in both . neither doth a congregation transgresse any rule of christ at all when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it self , whereas there be no consociated ●hurches to share with it in that power . answ . this i grant is very true ; and i desire it may not be recalled , but may still stand as here it is expresly given to us ; and then i desire to know what rule of christ is transgressed , if an other congregation , i meane a congregation that hath neighbours , do exercise the like power . for my part i know no such rule , nor any good reason but if that the one congregation may so practise , the other congregation may do the like , and that the grounds ( at least some of them ) which will warrant the one , will also suffice to warrant the other . neverthelesse when any rule of christ shal be produced that doth restraine a congregation that hath neighbours of this entire power , which is so freely and plainly granted to the congregation that is alone , i shall then grant that the former must have lesse liberty to exercise this power , then is here granted to the latter . in the meane time , that which here is yeelded to the one doth amongst other things induce me to thinke that the same ought to be granted to the other , and so that entirenesse of power is in them both . a congregation ( viz. which is alone ) is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . answ . how will it then be avoided but a congregation which hath neighbours , or a congregation which was alone and now hath neighbours added to it , how will it be avoided i say , but such a congregation as this is also capable of entire iurisdiction ? for can it be denyed but such a congregation is a church , as well as the other ? sure if mr. rutherford his doctrine elsewhere delivered do stand good , this cannot be denyed at all . for in his page he saith , that is a church , and hath the essence of a church , to which agree the essentiall notes of a visible church , and preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments saith he are essentiall notes of a visible church . which if it bee so , then a congregation that hath neighbours is a visible church , and hath the essence of a church , because preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are cleerely found in such a congregation . and if such a congregation be a church , then by his own doctrine in this place which we have in hand , such a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction . for thus i argue from his own words every congregation which is a church is capable of entire iurisdiction . but a congregation which hath neighbours is a church . therefore a congregation which hath neighbours is capable of entire iurisdiction . the conclusion is that which we stand for , and it makes directly against our brother , and yet i see not how he can avoyd it , because both the premises are his own . for the proposition is plaine from the words we have in hand , v●z . a congregation is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . now if this be the reason why it is capable thereof , then looke to what congregation this reason doth agree , every such congregation must be so capable . for our author well knoweth that à quatenus ad omnia consequentia . and for the assumption , the same is confirmed by his words , page , where he makes that to be a church , and to have the essence of a church , to which the preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments do agree . and these agreeing to a congregation that hath neighbours , it followeth that a congregation that hath neighbours is a church . vnlesse hee will deny to a congregation that hath neighbours power of preaching the word and administring the sacraments ( which i am perswaded he will not deny at all ) it will unavoidably follow from his own ground that such a congregation is a visible church . and if such a congregation be a visible church , then by his own ground also , such a congregation must be capable of entire iurisdiction : which conclusion if it bee granted we desire no more , for it is the thing that we hold . a woman in no case is capable of administring baptisme or the lords supper , except she were extraordinarily and immediately inspired to bee a prophetesse , but for the exercise of entire power of jurisdiction by a congregation in a remote iland , i hope it hath no such need of immediate inspiration . answ . nor do wee thinke otherwise ; but ( that we may keepe to the points and bring up the dispute to the thing in questio ) if such a congregation having no such inspiration may notwithstanding lawfully exercise intire power of iurisdiction within themselves , and that upon this reason , because they now are alone , which if they had neighbours were not lawfull for them to do , then let it be well considered , whether by the like reason in the like extraordinary case , baptisme and the lords supper may not be administred the one of them by a woman , and both of them by such as are no ministers . for as in one case the plea , to make it lawfull is this , because such a congregation hath no neighbours , so in the other the plea is because the congregation hath no ministers , nor perhaps there are no men at hand . and if the one which at other times were unlawfull , yet in such an extraordinary exigence of gods providence may be lawfully done , though there be no immediate inspiration to warrant the same , why doth there need such immediate inspiration to warrant the other , the extraordinary exigence of gods providence being alike in both . i desire i may not be mistaken in this passage , for i doe not affirme ( nor ever did ) that the dispensation of discipline and of sacraments in the cases mentioned are both alike unlawfull , or else both alike lawfull . the answer will not witnesse that i have so affirmed , neither yet this present discourse t● much lesse do i hold that sacraments may be dispensed by women or by men that are not ministers . all that i have said in this matter is thus much , that it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in such extraordinary cases , as want of neighbours , to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , least some body do thence inferre that sacraments may be dispensed by women or men that are no ministers , in case that ministers or men be wanting . this i have said indeed , as being tender and afraid to open a dore too far for liberty of transgressing ordinary rules , and conceiving that keeping close to those rules is the safest way . if any man be more bold and dare open the dore further then i dare adventure to do , and thinke he can easily shut the same againe , to stop the inconveniencies and ill consequents which i feare may thence ensue . i shall leave him to his discretion , and the guidance of god therein , onely craving thus much for my selfe that no more may be imputed to me , nor reported of me in this or other matters , then indeed i have affirmed or expressed . concerning his second reason of the greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments , his words are these . there is no such morall necessity of sacraments as there is of the ministery of the word and consequently of the use of the keyes , where a scandalous person may infect the lords flock : for where vision ceaseth the people perish . but it is never said where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , pag. . answ . how shall we be sure that by vision , prov. . . is meant discipline ? yea discipline not in a large sense as comprehending generally all order and behaviour concerning a church and outward duties therein , but discipline strictly taken for administration of censures ( for of this is one question ) how i say shall wee be sure that by vision is meant this discipline ? the usuall expositers tremeli●● and junius , 〈…〉 , and others doe expound the same of the preaching and dispensing of the word , making no mention at all of discipline as meant thereby . and the 〈◊〉 branch of the verse , he ●hat keepeth the law is blessed , doth ●hew that by vision in the former branch is mean the law , or doctrine or word of god. and if the scripture do not s●y , where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , yet neither doth it say , where administrat●on of censures ceaseth the people perish ; and therefore no necessity of censures above sacraments can be concluded hence . vncalled ministers in case of necessity without ordination or calling from a presbytery may preach and take on them the holy ministery and exercise power of jurisdiction , because of the necessity of the soules of a congregation in a remote iland requireth so . answ if they may do these things without ordination ( as for my part i deny it not , so that the election or consent of the congregation be not wan●ing , for that i suppose might be a good part of an outward calling ) then i demand whether one minister alone may not thus do , i meane whether one alone may not in the case proposed take on him the holy ministery and preach the word as a minister . if many may do it , then i suppose there is no question but one may do it much rather . and if so , then i demand further whe●her such a single minister may not also administer the sacraments to such a congregation : i suppose it cannot be denyed , for if he lawfully take on him the ministery and preach as a minister , what should hinder , but he may also baptize , and minister the lords supper ? and if hee may thus doe , then i demand lastly , whether this single minister may also administer discipline and censures in that congregation . if he may , then either the power of those censures must be in himselfe alone , or in the congregation also , in himselfe alone it cannot be , because censures must bee dispensed by a church , and one man alone cannot bee a church , if it be in the congregation also , then here is a power of excommunication or other censures even in the people which is against our brothers judgement . if it be said that this single minister as long as he wan●s other ministers joyned with him may not administer censures or discipline , then it will follow that power of censures is not alwayes annexed to the ministery as an inseparable adjunct thereof , nor are censures to be preferred before sacraments as more necessary , as our brother would have it , for as much as here is a ministery and the administring of sacraments , the necessity of the soules of the congregation requiring so , and yet for all this not any power of censures at all . our brother therefore may make his choyce , whether hee will grant the power of the keyes of discipline to bee in the people , or whether he will say the necessity of the soules in a congregation doth require sacraments more then discipline ; for though these be both against himselfe , yet upon the ground which himselfe doth here lay , the one of the two is unavoidable . but i hope no necessity in any of the most extraordinary case requireth that a midwife may baptize , or that a private man remaining a private man may celebrate the lords supper to the church , without any calling from the church . answ . concerning the midwife i thinke the same that he doth . and concerning the private man , i also therein ●●curre that without calling from the church hee may not performe what here is spoken of . but here i would make this quare whether 〈◊〉 man that never was a minister may not as well in an extraordinary case performe 〈◊〉 act of administring of baptisme or the lords supper , without any calling from the 〈◊〉 bytery or the church unto whom the office of ministery , as take on him without any such calling the whole ministery , and so preach and exercise the power of iurisdiction as a minister for as for the one of these , our brother expresly grants a man m●y lawfully take it on him without any such calling , the necessity of the soules of a congregation in an iland requiring so ; and if this necessity will warrant the one which is the whole and so the greater , why will it not warrant the other which is but one act and so the lesser ? one would thinke one act of dispensing baptisme or the supper were a lesser matter then the whole ministery , and all the actions thereof . and marvell it is , that the necessity of the soules of a congregation should warrant this which is the greater , and yet the same necessity should not be sufficient warrant for the lesser , a mans calling being otherwise alike unto both , that is , having an outward calling to neither himself doth sometimes reason thus , if wee give to beleevers that are not in office one pastorall act , wee may with the like weight of reason give them all : peaceable plea , page . now if this reasoning be good from one act to all , why is no this as good , from all to any one or to some one ? and why may we not in like maner argue thus , if persons uncalled may without ordination or calling take on them the whole ministery , why may not persons uncalled without ordination or calling take on them to baptize or minister the supper ? not that i thinke such a practise to be lawfull , but only i intend to make quaere about the validity of our brothers kind of arguing . yea , it is elsewhere his arguing , that it persons not in office of ministery may execute censures and discipline , they may then administer the sacraments . for saith he , what hinders by this reason but they may also without ministers prea●h and administer the sacraments : peaceable plea , page . yea saith he , i s●e not but with a like warrant private men may administer the sacraments : vbi supra , page . this we see is his arguing elsewhere : and yet in the place we have in hand he grants that persons uncalled may in case of necessity without ordination or calling take on them the ministery in generall , and in particular may exerc●se the power of iurisdiction , and yet for all this he sayes , that no necessity will warrant a man to celebrate the lords supper without a calling from the church . which two sayings for ought i perceive do not agree . for in the one it is affirmed that if they may exercise discipline and censures , they may by the like reason administer sacraments : and the other saith they may exercise discipline and censures and yet may not administer sacraments ; and yet both the sayings are expressed by the same authors pen. chap. xi . whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that hath none : and whether otherwise neighbouring churches bee not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . the next place where i find mr. rutherford dealing with the answer , is in his page . where he brings in these words under mr. tompsons name and mine , viz. if the power of jurisdiction flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of a church , and a congregation be essentially a church , then this power agreeth to all churches whether consociated , or not consociated , and without respect of what neighbours they have , whether many or few , whether any or none . second , a congregation it selfe alone cannot have sole power of iurisdiction and then be deprived of it , when god sendeth neighbours , for then neighbouring churches which are given for help should be given for losse , the contrary whereof ames saith no. doe synods saith he , constitute a new forme of a chur●h . thus farre mr. rutherford who in his margent alledgeth mr. tompson and me , . pag. , . answ . in one of these pages of the answer , viz. p. . there is nothing at all to be found that looks toward such a purpose as our brother hath in hand , and therefore this page should not have been here alledged . the words of dr. ames are more imperfectly cited by our brother , then they were alledged in the answer , for the answer alledgeth them thus out of medull . theol. lib. . chapter . sect . that the combination of churches into classes , and synods doth neither constitute a new forme of a church , nor ought by any meanes to take away or impayer that liberty and power which christ hath given to his churches , sith it serveth only for the directing and furthering of the same . wher●as our brother expresseth only those first words that synods do not constitute a new forme of a church , but all the rest wherein the chiefe strength of dr. ames his testimony doth lye , them he doth wholly omit and leave out . he also leaves out the assent which is given by mr. paget , to this testimony of dr. ames , which assent as it is expressed in his defence p. . in these words , this we do willingly grant , is also in the ●ame words alledged by the answer in p. . but this is wholly passed over by mr. rutherford in silence . now two such men as these being alledged in the answer , as plainly affirming that the combination of churches into classes and synods must neither tollere nor minuere , take away not impaire or diminish the liberty or power of churches , but only serve for the directing and furthering of the same , and the one of them being the chiefe patron of the power of classes and synods , it is some marvell to me that no word of answer is vouchsafed to them by mr. rutherford , but that their words are thus passed by with silence , and the name of one of them not so much as mentioned . how ever this is cleere , that he that gainsayes the answer in this passage , hath not only the answer , but also the reverend author here mentioned to be against him . but let us come to consider of mr. rutherford his answer which he subjoyneth in these words , viz. power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a congregation in an iland , ergo a totall and compleat power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a church or congregation consociated , it followeth no wayes . answ i desire the reason may be laid down according to our true meaning therein , and in its full strength ; and then the former part thereof must not only speak of power of iurisdiction flowing from the essence of a church that want neighbours , but of entire power , for thereof is the question ; and in the latter part the termes must no : be a church consociated but a church that hath neighbours ; now if entire power and iurisdiction do flow from the essence of a church , and therefore this essence of a church being found in a congregation that wants neighbours , this entirenesse of power mu●t thereupon be granted to such a congregation ; i then demand why the like entirenesse of power must not be granted as well to a congregation that hath neighbours , sith the essence of a church is found in this congregation , as well as in the other . for ought i see either the essence of a church must be denyed to a congregation that hath neighbours or else it will follow that entirenesse of power must be granted to such a congregation , risibility and power of reason flowing immediately and necessarily from the essence of a man , and power to defend it selfe and purge out excrements flowing in like sort from the essence of a humane body , and power to governe it self with family government flowing in like sort from the essence of a family ; therefore we must not grant these powers to be entire in such a man , such a body , or such a family as is alone , and deny the same to one that hath neighbours , but must grant them alike unto all , because this power flowes from their very essence , which is as truly found in such as have neighbours , as it is in those that are alone . and the like may be said in other cases . and why it should be otherwise in a congregationall church , that the power of the iurisdiction flowing from the essence of such a church should therefore be entire in such a congregation as is alone in an iland , and yet not entire in a congregation that hath neighbours , though this congregation hath the essence of a church as well as the other , why these congregations i say should thus greatly differ in their power , and yet be alike in their essence from whence their power doth flow , for my part i yet do not understand the reason . nor doth that satisfy which mr. rutherford here alledgeth , that one pastor in a congregation hath as a pastor power to rebuke sin and to administer the sacraments , and yet when three pastors are added to help him he hath not the sole power of rebuking sin , and the sole and entire power to administer the sacraments , but these three pastors have power with him : this i conceive doth not help the matter at all : for though it be true that these three pastors being added to the first have each of them the like power as the first had , yet the power of the first for the performance of these things mentioned , is as comple●t in him notwithstanding this addition , as it was before , and not any whit abated nor impayred thereby : and the reason is , because matters of order flowing from the essence of a pastor may bee sufficiently and compleatly performed by one pastor singly , which acts of iurisdiction cannot . mr. rutherford his own words in this case are these , viz. a single pastor may ministerially give out commandements in the authority of christ , but hee cannot himselfe censure or excommunicate the contraveners of those commandements : due right , page . and againe , page , it is proper is acts of iuris●iction ecclesiasticall that they cannot be exercised by one alone , but must be exercised by a society : but a pastor as a pastor himselfe alone without any collaterally joyned with him exerciseth his pastorall acts of preaching and administring the sacraments . now if a pastor as a pastor himself alone without any collatterally joyned with him , may thus exercise his pastorall acts , then indeed the accesse or addition of other pastors is not at all destructive of his pastorall power , but he still retaineth the same as compleat and perfect as before , because hee doth these acts as a pastor and remaineth a pastor still . but how this example and instance can any thing further mr. ruth●rford his purpose , i do not understand . for his intention is to make good that a congregation may have entire power when it is alone , a●d yet not so when other congregations do arise ; and for the consuming of this hee brings this instance and example from a pastor that hath a pastorall power afore other pastors are added ; who by the addition of others hath no lesse power then afore ; which example i conceive rather makes against him then for him . for saith he , page . their pastorall power added to him is cumulative and auxiliary , but not privative or destructive of his pastorall power , and therefore that the first pastor suffereth losse by the addition of these three to him , who , saith he , will say this ? answ . i know none that will say it ; but if their power be cumulative and auxiliary to his pastorall power , and no wayes privative or destructive thereof , then what power he had afore they were added , the same he hath still in as great measure as formerly , and so his pastorall acts are as perfect and valid as they were before . now let the same bee granted to a congregation that hath neighbour congregations added , and we have what we demand : and if this be not granted , then though the power of those other pastors be cumulative and auxiliary to the other pastor , yet the power of those other congregations seemes not so to the former congregation , but rather privative or destructive of its power , and then how can this example confirme our brothers purpose , or how can it be avoided but the example which he produceth doth make against himselfe ? sure if the power of these other pastors bee not destructive to the former pastors power , but auxiliary thereto , so that what power he had before , the same he retayneth still , and in the same measure , then it must bee so likew●se in a congregation when neighbour congregations are added , or else this example will not suit : but make the examples to agree and our cause is advantaged thereby . our brethren doe conceive the power of congregations in its kind and essence to be monarchicall , so as if any power from consociated congregations be added thereunto , the congregations power monarchicall is diminished and the essence of it changed . answ . the power of congregations we ●old to be ministeriall , as being delegated from christ iesus , and to be exercised according to his appointment ; and in him alone and in no other do we place this monarchicall power ; according to what the holy ghost witnesseth , that there are differences of administrations but the same lord , cor. . . and though our brother is pleased to put this upon us , that we conceive the power of congregations to bee monarchicall , yet in truth the same is farre from us : nor do i thinke that so much as one of us can be named , that at any time hath so spoken : nor doth such a thing follow from any thing delivered by us concerning the power of congregations . for as for that which here he intimateth and elsewhere expresseth more plainly , so that the power of iurisdiction in congregations is closely made void or destroyed by that power which some ascribe unto classes , if this be holden by us , doth it thence follow that we hold the power of congregations to be monarchical●● it followes not at all . for then by the like reason i could prove that himselfe d●th hold a power monarchicall in the universall or provinciall churches : for he expresly affirmeth , page . that the popes power destroyeth the power of the church universall , and the prelates power destroyeth the power of the church whereof hee is pretended pastor . and yet i hope he doth not hold a monarchicall power in the one chu●ch nor in the other , nor in any church or churches but in christ alone ; nor can the same bee truly concluded upon that which hee affirmeth of destroying the power of churches by the power of the pope and prelate . and if not , how then can any man conclude against us that we hold a monarchicall power in congregations , though wee should hold that the power of congregations is destroyed or diminished by that power which some would give unto classes● if our pr●mises will warrant him to fasten such a tenent upon us , his own will give a warrant for the like against himselfe . and if the ground be insufficient to beare such a conclusion against him , as i confesse it is , i know no sufficient ground why the same should be imputed unto us . compleat and en●ire power to rule both the congrega●ion and members of consociated churches in so farre as they do keep communion with that congregation , and may either edifie or scandalize them , floweth not immeaiately and ●ecessarily from the essence of every congregation even in remote ilands not consociated with others , that we never said . answer . indeed it were an absurd and grosse saying for any man to say , that a congregation in a remote iland not consociated with others should have power , yea compleat and entire power to rule the congregation and members of churches consociated and that this should flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of such a congregation . but there is no need that our brother should cleere himselfe from this saying , for i know none that imputes it to him . neverthelesse , the saying here ●●joyned cannot be denyed , for they are his own verb●ti●● . first , the ordinary power of iurisdiction because of neerest vicinity and contiguity of members is given by iesus christ to one congregation in an isle , because that church is a church properly so called : it is a little city , and a little kingdome of iesus christ , having within it selfe power of the ●ord and sacraments and that is a church and hath the essence of a church to which agree the essentiall notes of a church : now preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of a visible church : page . second , a congregation is a church wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church , page . third , where consociation is not , ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation , page . fourth , that in such cases ( viz. when a church is in an iland it selfe alone ) they have the word preached and entire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary , page . fift , it floweth co●naturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its owne members , ibid. sixt , neither doth a congregation transgresse any rules of christ at all , when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it selfe , whereas there be no consociated churches to share with it in that power , ibid. seaventh , a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction , because it is a church , ibid. such sayings as these himselfe hath delivered in the pages and places here cited , and in the words and termes here expressed ; and therefore from these he cannot cleere himselfe and if from these the entirenesse of iurisdiction in a church that hath neighbours may justly be deduced , as i conceive it may , and have above manifested , it will then but little availe him to wash his hands from the stayne of that other absurd saying afore mentioned , which no man that i know do charge him withall . for as long as these other sayings do stand unrecalled , so long wee have cleere grounds from himselfe and his own words , for entirenesse of iurisdiction in every congregationall church , and so for the weakening of his cause , and for the strengthening of our own . a power to governe well and according to the rule of the word added to an other power to governe well and according to the word , is an auxiliary power and no way destructive to that power to which it is added . indeed a power to governe well added to a power of male-administration in a congregation is destructive of that power , and reason it should bee so , because christ never gave any such power of male-administration to a congregation . answ . here our brother speakes of two cases , first of a power of governing well added to a power of governing well . second , of a power of governing well added to a power of governing ill ; but besides these , there is a third case which had need to bee considered also , viz. a power of governing ill added to a power of governing well , which may be the case when the power of classis is added to a congregation ; for it is not impossible but the congregation may be in the right and the classis in the wrong . now what shall be said or done in this ●ase ? shall the congregation now have the free exercise of its power , or shall it not ? to say yea , would satisfie the minds of many , if the congregation themselves may be judge that they are in the right , or if it were determined who must judge thereof . and to say no , and that the power must still be in this erring classis , were to subject righteousnesse to wickednesse , and truth to falshood , and i conceive our brother will not maintain such power in a compound or presbytery or classis . for in page . speaking of this very case , and the greater presbytery is wrong in their voicing , and the elders of a congregationall church are right , and have the best in judging of a case before them , he plainly affirmeth , that the power which in this case the presbytery exerciseth is not of christ , and that de jure the power of the greater presbytery in this case ought to be swallowed up of the voices of the elders of a congregation , though they be fewer in number . now if this be so , then the thing in question is still as uncertain as before , and still wee are to seeke where the power of censures or iurisdiction doth finally reside . for in the one place our brother tels us , christ never gave power of male-administration to a congregation , and in the other he tels us the like of a classis or great presbytery , and that christ hath given no power to any church to erre . by which sayings we are left at great uncertainty : for still the question will be whether the congregation doth erre or no , and so whether the classis do erre or no , and unlesse it be determined who must judge of this , we are still but where wee were , and no neerer an issue then before . this indeed is most true and must be so acknowledged , that though the lord almighty have given a power unto societies , whether they bee families , common-wealths , or churches , and have made sundry of them subordinate to none other the like societies in the exercise of their power , but to have supremacy of power within themselves , yet he hath also given them just and holy rules in his word for the directing of them in the use of this power , from which rules it is not lawfull for them to swerve or go astray ; but if they do , it will be sin unto them , and he will surely require it of them : but now between these two the power it selfe and the abuse or right use of the power , we must carefully distinguish , for though abuse of their power bee not given of god , from whom comes nothing but good , yet the power it selfe being good is given of him , and is so to be acknowledged . and though abuse of their power do justly deserve at his hands that they should be deprived of the power it selfe , ye● god doth not alwayes forthwith deale with men according to their deserts herein , but many times continues still to them their power , though they have abused the same , much lesse doth he allow others to deprive them of this power because of every abuse thero● : witnesse among others the examples of the pagan princes in the apostles times , who through their ignorance , infidelity , pride and other sins , could not but in great measure abuse their authority , and yet the holy ghost commands the christians to be subject and obedient thereunto , rom. . , . &c. t it . . not to obey them indeed , in doing evill at their commands , for in such case they must obey god rather then man , as act . . yet still they must be subject to the powers either actively or pa●●ively , even then when the powers were sinfully abused . even so , if a family shall abuse their power , it doth not follow that other families , may lawfully for this cause take away their power from them : or if a corporation shall so offend , it will not follow that other corporations may deprive them of their power . and if it be so in commonwealths , and families , why may wee not say the same of churches ? or how will it follow , if a church shall abuse their power , that other churches in such eases may take away the power from such a church ? for ought i see , this will not follow at all , no more then the other . for though christ have not given to any church a power of male administration as mr. rutherford speaks , yet hath he given to every church a power of administration , which if they manage not aright but do abuse the same , the lord iesus will be displeased with them for this abuse , and other churches may and ought to advise them and admonish them and testifie against them for the same ; but for the power it selfe , as christ himselfe doth not forthwith deprive them thereof , so much lesse may other churches take it from them , for who gave them this authority ? per in parem non habet potestatem : and churches are all of equall authority , and not one superior or inferior to another , as therefore when children or servants in a family are not governed as they ought to be , yet neighbour families have not warrant because of this male administration to invade the rights and destroy the power of such a family , even so it is in this case of churches ▪ this male-administration in a church is not forthwith a sufficient warrant for neighbour churches to invade the rights of such a church , and to take away its power from it . especially if we do consider that this male-administration in a congregation may possibly be but pretended and not reall , and that the administration of the classes may paradventure be really such ; in which case mr. rutherford saith the power of the classis is not of christ , but their voices ought de jure to be swallowed up by the congregation and the elders thereof . this argument therefore from male-administration of the power of a congregation , which mr rutherford saith , it is reason should be destroyed by another power added to it , meaning the power of a classis is of no sufficient force to take away the power of a congregation at all , not to establish the power of the classis over the same , being as justly applyable against the classis it selfe : therefore for ought that doth yet appeare , supreame ministeriall church power which i conceive must needs be somewhere , may as well be in the congregation as in the classis , and can neither by this argument of male-administration nor by any other that we have yet seene , bee placed in the classis any more then in the congregation . chap. xii . whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be judge ; and whether mr. rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach , and whether this saying that parties may not be judges do make against entirenesse of power in a congation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . the next place where mr. rutherford deales with the answer , is in his p. . where alledging mr. tompson and me , page . he hath these words as ours , viz. if it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be the sole iudge , which must be if the sole power of iurisdiction be in the congregation ( as wee grant in an extraordinary case and the congregation is in an iland it selfe alone ) and so it shall be lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity , and the very light of nature , it must then follow , that it is not against the light of nature that a congregation though consociated with other congregations have entire jurisdiction within it selfe . answ . our words in the page alledged are more prospicuous and cleere , then these which are here set down for ours : neither do wee make any mention of a congregation in an iland , nor yet of a congregation consociated with other churches , least of all do we say ( or report others to say ) that it is lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature ; none of these things are ours . and therefore , that our true meaning may plainely appeare as it is , i will transcribe a few of our words , which are these , viz. sure we cannot thinke that there can be such a case imagined , wherein you would grant it lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature , and yet you grant that the case may be such that a single congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it selfe ; which seemes to us plainly to prove that for a congregation to bee so independent as to be the finall judge of offences within it selfe , is not against all equity nor against the light of nature , as is intimated by you . these are our words , much differing from those which mr. rutherford sets down as ours , which i thought meet to relate out of the answer , that our meaning might appeare as it is , and no otherwise . and now let us heare what our brother subjoyneth for answer . none of us , saith he , do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the iudge : it might fall out in a generall councell lawfully convened from which their is no provocation : yea and in a nationall councell ( for all councels may erre ) the adverse party may judge ; as it was a lawfull councell according to a church constitution that condemned christ of blasphemy and they were also his enemies . answ . and may it not also fall out in a provinc●all synod , and in a classis or presbtytery of many churches ? i suppose it cannot be denyed , but the iudges in all these may be the adverse parties ; and so if the adverse party may not be iudge , then neither generall nor nationall councels , nor provinciall synods , nor classes , nor presbyteries may be iudges ; because there is none of these but possibly they may be parties . and so this argument , parties may not be iudges , doth make no more against the congregations power of judging , then against all ecclesiasticall assemblies whatsoever . vnlesse therefore men would overthrow the power of all ecclesiasticall iudicatories whatsoever without exception of any , they can have no help from this argument to overthrow the power of iurisdiction in congregations . not to insist upon that which might also be truly alledged , that the objection hath the like force , ( if any at all ) against civill iudicatories . but is it so indeed as our brother affirmeth , that none of them do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the judge ? i thinke he should not thus have spoken , for i am much mistaken if the contrary hereunto be not certainly true . for first of all , i alledge the words of reverend mr , herle , in his book of independency page . alledged in the answer : page , the very pag. which here mr rutherford is dealing against . in which place of mr. herle there are these words , viz. that there ought to be graduall judicatories , wherein the agrieved party may appeale from the lesser to the higher , that against the very light of nature the adverse party be not the sole iudge and party too in the cause , there can be no ceremony or type in this , next of all i alledge the words of the same reverend author in his page ▪ ( which is also alledged in the forementioned place of the answer ) where the words are these , what if a brother offend not a particular brother , but the whole congregation ? what if ten brethren offend the whole or part ? shall we thinke the offence fals not within our saviours remed or complaint or appeale here ? that the offended party be not against all equity the sole and finall judge of the offence . in which places wee see it is plaine , yet this reverend author counts it against the very light of nature ; that the adverse party should bee iudge and party too in the cause , and that it is against all equity that the party offended should bee sole and finall iudge of the offence . and therefore it is marvellous that mr. rutherford should say that none of them do so teach : yea , it is the more marvellous inasmuch as both these places of mr. herle are expresly mentioned in that very page of the answer which here mr. rutherford is disputing against . and therefore it he had not remembred that himselfe had read the same in mr herle , as like enough he had , yet finding the same alledged by us in that scripture of ou●s , it is marvell hee would not turne to the places alledged to search and see whether the thing were so or no , afore he had denyed the same . whereas on the contrary , whether he searched or searched not , this we see that he roundly affirmes , that none of them do so teach ; to which saying i know not how to assent , our eyes having so plainly seene and read the direct contrary , yea and further , it is yet more marvellous that mr. rutherford should thus write , considering not only what hath been already said , but also what himselfe hath written elsewhere : i will mention a few of his own sayings , and then himselfe shall be ●udge , whether the thing we have now in hand was by him advise●ly and well spoken . in his pe●ceable plea , page he hath these words , when the graecian church offendeth the hebrew church , the hebrew church cannot complaine to the graecian church , for the law forbiddeth the party to bee judge . and what law hee meanes may be perceived by his words in page . of the same treatise , where he saith , if one man be wronged and see truth suffer by partiality , the law of nature will warrant him to appeale to an assembly , where there is more light and greater authority , as the weaker may fly to the stronger . now let himselfe be judge whether in these testimonies compared , he do not teach , that it is against the law of nature that parties should be iudge● , and that therefore men may appeale from them . againe , those words page of the same book are so plaine as that nothing can be more , these words saith he what soever yee bind on earth , &c. must be meant only of the apostles , and of the church , verse . yea , and it must exclude peter and his offending brother , suppose they were both beleevers ; because parties by the law of nature and nations cannot be iudges . las●ly , those words are expresse in his due right of presbytery , in his see ●nd p. , . where hee writes thus , if according to the law of nature and nations , no man can be iudge in his own cause , then are appeales from the eldership of one congregation , when they are a party to the caused person , naturall — but the former is reason , nature , law of nations . ergo so is the latter . in the assumption of which sylogisme he plainly affirmes that it is reason , nature , and the law of nations , that no man may be judge in his own cause , and by all this i suppose t● is manifest that the thing which he saith none of them do teach is expresly and plainly taught by some of them , and among others even by himselfe , who therefore ought not to have denyed the same , nor can bee cleered from much forgetfulnesse in so doing . and if so great an oversight be found in him , i hope himself may thereby be intreated to be tender of agravating matters against us or others , at leastwise not so farre to agravate them , as to impute unto us matters which we do not hold : for a mans owne infirmities should make him more equitable and favourable towards others . and christian readers may be warned hereby not hastily to receive all that mr. rutherford hath written , afore they have duly examined and tryed the same , whether the things bee so or not , for wee see through forgetfulnesse or otherwise hee may greatly mistake himselfe , and misse of the truth , and give forth such sayings and expressions for truth , as are in no sort to be maintained but recalled , though neverthelesse he is otherwise a man of great worth , and so ever to be acknowledged . we teach that it is not congruous to the wisdome of christ , nor to the light of nature , that christ should have appointed all the ordinary church courts , so many thousand congregations , who may rather crie then extraordinary and higher synods to bee the onely ordinary iudges in their own cause . answ . these qualifications and limitations of the matter of parties being iudges are such as to my remembrance i never heard given afore now . now indeed it is said . that all congregations being so many thousand . . may not be the only ordinary iudges in their own cause , but it would bee against the wisdome of christ and light of nature if it should so be ; yet formerly it was delivered absolutely and simply , that it is against the light of nature for parties to be iudges , without any such modifications and qualifications as now mr. rutherf . gives to help the matter withall . neverthelesse by qualifying the thing in this sort , it seemes thereby to bee still granted that though so many thousand congregations may not ordinarily be iudge in their own cause , but the light of nature will be against it , yet for some congregations and at some times the thing may be allowed well enough : else why is the thing denyed only to so many congregations , and ordinarily , if it be not thereby implyed that some congregations and at some times may thus practise ? now hereupon the question groweth , whether some at some times may bee allowed to do contrary to the light of nature , though all may not : or whether the light of nature bee changed when there comes to be many congregations , and be not the same that it was before , when there was no more congregations but one , whether i say some new light of nature do arise with the rise of new congregations , so that when they are many it would be against this light for them thus to bee iudges , though it was not so when there was but one : or whether we must say the light of nature remaining in the same , one congregation remaining alone may be allowed to do contrary thereto , but many may not . it seemes to be inconvenient and ha●d to affirme either of these ; and yet the one or the other seemes unavoidable by this that mr. rutherford here teacheth . for let it be granted that a congregation that is alone , yea a generall councell , yea a nationall councell also may be iudges in their own cause , and that no light of nature is against the same , and yet many congregations may not be so , but then the light of nature will be against it , let these things i say be granted , which are all of them granted and taught by mr. rutherford , and then i desire to know how the inconveniences mentioned can be avoided ; i meane how it can be avoided , but either some men or church assemblies may lawfully do that which is against the very light of nature , or else that the light of nature is changed when many congregations do arise , from that which it was when there was but one . yea the difficulty and intrica●y in this way is yet more , if it be well considered . for first of all when a congregation is alone , it is yeelded that it is not against natures light for them to bee iudges in their own cause . secondly , when many congregations do arise , now it is said it is against such light , that they should so be iudges : yet thirdly , when these congregations do gather into a nationall councell , then this light of nature will allow them to be iudges , as in the first case of a single congregation that is alone : and the same is also said of the generall councell : so that here is strange varying and changing of the light of nature , and of that which is against it , lawfull or unlawfull thereby . and when good reason and ground is given for the cleering of these things , we shall then consider further thereof , and see more then yet we do . in the meane time taking what is granted , that no light of nature forbids a congregation when it is alone , to have entirenesse of iurisdiction within it selfe , nor forbids the same to the generall or nationall councels , i thinke it may thence be inferred , that the like must be allowed to congregationall churches that have neighbours , and that entirenesse of iurisdiction in these is no more against the light of nature , then in the other . for to say that one congregation may have this entirenesse of iurisdiction and the light of nature allowe● it , and others may not but the light of nature forbids it ; yea to say first the light of nature allowes it , and then it forbids it , and then it allowes it againe , these are such abstruse and intricate things , yea so apparantly incongruous and inconsistent , that it passeth my understanding to perceive how they can stand together . chap. xiii . whether the churches at thessalonica and ierusalem , were each of them more then one congregation ; and of mr. baynes his iudgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke . and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . it is a wonder to me saith our author page . that thessalonica was but one congregation — yet the apostle ascribeth to them that which is a note to worthy baynes of the unmerous multitude of the church of jerusalem , from whence went the word of ged to all the world. thes . . . for from you sounded out the word of the lord not onely in macedonia , and achaia , but in every place your faith to god-ward is spread abroad . answ . all this doth not hinder but thessalonica might be one congregation , though perhaps a great one . for that the word did sound out from them to others , and their faith to godward was spread abroad , what is there in all this to prove they were many congregations in one church ? and for mr. baynes whom our author worthily counts a worthy man , there is nothing in him that will serve mr. rutherford his purpose , but much that makes for the contrary . for it is well known in his diocesans triall he maintaines at large , that churches by the appointment of chr●st are congregationall , and denyes that one congregation may be one church : and in the particular instances of the church , at jerusalem , at co●i●th , at ephesus , at antioch and others , he holds the very same that we do , and the direct contrary to that which mr. rutherford stands for . and therefore whereas he wonders that thessalonica should bee one congregation , considering what the apostle saith of them , and what mr. baynes hath said of jerusalem , i may more justly wonder that he should once mention mr. baynes in this cause . for if ever there was man in this world that deny●d many congregations to be one church , and allowed onely such churches to be instituted of christ as may meete ordinarily in one congregation , this mr. baynes was one of them ; and therefore a wonder it is to me that mr. rutherford should thinke to have help from him in this question . but let us consider what it is that mr baynes doth say of the church at ierusalem : why , this which the apostle affirmeth of the thessalonians mr. baynes doth make a note of the numerous multitude of the church at ierusalem . but doth hee make it a note of many congregations in one church at ierusalem ? if he do , this were something to the purpose , i grant . but i hope mr. rutherford will not so report of mr. baynes ; for it is plaine mr. bayne● doth not so speake , but expresly saith the direct contrary ; and therefore what ever numerous multitude might be in that church , and what ever might be a note of such multitude , except mr. baynes had said that the multitude was such as made many congregations and yet all but one church ( which he never said but the contrary ) there is no help to be had from mr. baynes in this businesse . for who knoweth not that there might be a numerous multitude , and yet but one congregation ? sure in mr. baynes his judgement it might be so , and therefore though hee grant a numerous multitude in this church at jerusalem , yet mr. rutherford purpose for many congregations in thessal●nica and yet all but one church , is not gained , nor at all holpen thereby . which will better appeare if mr. baynes his argumentation in the place which i conceive mr. rutherford aymes at , be considered in page . of his diocesans tryall , he propounds an argument of theirs who would have many congregations to be one church , taken from the example of the ancient churches of rome and alexandria , laid down in these words : if the multitude of christians did in ierusalem so increase within a little time , that they exceeded the proportion of one congregation , how much more likely is it that christians in rome and alexandria did so increase in yeares , that they could not keepe in one particular assembly : but the first is true , ergo also the latter . now when he cames to answer this argument , pag. , . what doth he then say . first of all he saith , the proposition is not of necessary consequence , for there were saith he very extraordinary reasons of that which was effected in ierusalem : and so he proceeds to mention , or . reasons in particular , of which one is this which it may be mr. rutherford hath an eye unto , that the state of this church was such as that it was to send out light to all others , a common aursery to the world. and therefore if the thing were granted that in jerusalem there was a numerous multitude , yea such a multitude as could not be contained in one congregation , yet saith he , it doth not follow from this particular to the so great increasing of these churches , to wit , of rome and alexandria in tract of time . and even so may i say , it doth not follow to the so great increasing of the church of the thessalonians , there being such extraordinary reasons for that which was effected in ierusalem , as neither rome nor alexandria , nor yet thessalonica could alledge the same . and this is his answer to the proposition . but for the assumption , where mr. rutherford his help must chiefly lye , to wit , that the multitude of christians in ierusalem did exceed the proportion of one congregation , this mr. baynes doth expresly deny : not to mention , saith he , that we do deny the assumption . therefore , the proposition being by mr. baynes not yeelded , and the assumption expresly denyed , i see not how master rutherford can have any help to his cause from either of both . he denyes not , he saith , what mr. tompson and i do say , that may meet to hear the word , many thousands were gathered together , luke to heare christ . answ . if this be not denyed , then suppose there were or more in the church at ierusalem , it doth not follow therefore that that church was many congregations , and so our purpose is gained . but we , he saith , leave out the inconveniences of thronging so all at once , for they trod one upon another . second , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , for it is expresly said verse . hee began to say to his disciples ; so , christ refusing to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , who could not heare , and his doctrine being all for his disciples , the very sermon being preached to his disciples onely — evidenceth to me that christ condemneth a numerous multitude to heare at once . answ . the question is not about the conveniency or inconveniency of such excessively great assemblies ; but whether there be an impossibility in nature , and reason , that so many as are said to bee in the church at ierusalem should assemble and come together in one congregation ; for this is sometimes said for the proving of sundry congregations in that one church . now if this be not impossible , then the plurality of congregations in that one church cannot bee concluded by those great multitudes that were therein . and that it is not impossible for such great multitudes to come together in one congregation , the scripture alledged luke , doth witnesse . if they trod one upon another , that might argue the assembly was very great , and that they were very desirous to bee neere unto our saviour for their better hearing , but doth not at all prove that such multitudes are so great as that they cannot possibly be spoke unto and heare in one congregation . and therefore , whereas our brother saith , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , and that he refused to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , with favour of so worthy a man , i thinke the truth is otherwise . for though he began to speak to his disciples , verse . and exhorted them against worldly carefulnesse , verse . yet others who were not disciples were present , and did also heare his sermon : witnesse that in verse . where it is said that one of the company ( interrupting our saviour as it seemes ) demands of him that hee would speake to his brother about dividing the inheritance ; to whom our saviour makes answer , verse . which plainly ●hewes that all the p●esent company were not disciples . yea whereas it is said , that hereupon our saviour spake to them of bewaring and taking heed of coveteousnesse , verse . and sp●ke a parable to them of a certain rich man , verse . and after this said to his disciples , verse . take ●o thought for your life what you shall eate , &c. it appeareth hereby that these persons spoken to afterward verse , , &c. were not the disciples , who were spoken to afterward , verse . but were some other people besides . and what can be more plaine then that in verse . where it is expresly said , that christ spake unto the people , rebuking them for their hypocrisie , that could discerne the face of the skye , and of the earth , but could not discerne that time ? and he said also to the people , saith the text ; doth it not plainly appeare hereby that as myriads of people were gathered together , ver . so our saviour spake the word unto those people ? i suppose the thing is manifest , and that therefore our brothers words cannot stand , when he saith , that christ preached not to that confluence of people , but refused so to do , his doctrine being all for his disciples , for we see the holy ghost witnesseth that hee spake not onely to his disciples , but to the people also : chemniti●s hath these words , neg●ri non potest ●n hac satis prolixi concione , &c. it cannot bee denyed that christ in this long sermon of his , directed his speech first to his disciples , second to his friends , third to one of the company . fourth to peter demanding a question . fift to all the multitude , and it seemes the ev●ngelist was willing as it were to reckon up these severall parts or members of the sermon , harmon . chap. . and the refuter of dr. downams sermon saith , the mention of many thousands in jerusalem doth not make the number such as by no meanes could meete together in the publike worship of god , seeing it is apparent , luke . . that the people which assembled unto christ and partake his ' doctrine were also many myriads : and albeit he began at the first to speake to his disciples verse . yet afterward he spake to all the people assembled , ver . . . . reply p. . p. . wherefore though our brother say christ spake not to these multitudes of people but to his disciples onely , yet sith wee have the ●ext it selfe , and the judgement of two divines of chiefe note , expresly witnessing the contrary , therefore we cannot assent to him herein . whereas chrysostome saith did heare his voyce at once in one congregation by meanes of scaffolds and galleries , and mr. mather is willing to yeeld were all assembled in one place to heare the word , and that all the multitude of converts at ierusalem were together in solomons porch acts . i grant could heare at once , but alas &c page . answ . if chrysostomes testimony be of any weight , or mr. baynes his testimony by whom chrysostome is alledged diocesans triall , page . then a must be granted that not only , but a greater number , even ● at least may heare the word at once . and if so , then members in the church at ierusalem will not prove plurality of congregations in one church , forasmuch as here are people and yet no more congregations but one . but alas this is a great uncertainty for independant congregations , but this is to be proved , first that ( mr. mather hath not added many other multitudes mentioned , acts . . & . . ) did meete dayly in the temple . second , dayly or ordinarily from house to house . third , to celebrate the lords supper dayly in the temple and in every private house , and there were need of many scaffolds and galleries , to sit at one table . fourth , to make one judicature , &c. answ . he that shall look upon the answer page will plainely see that i have here spoken to both those places of acts . . & . shewing that neither of them do prove a plurality of congregations in this church at ierusalem , but rather the contrary . and therefore this parenthesis which doth intimate that i have omitted to speake to these places , must not be assented to , but denyed . but why must these foure particulars be proved ? i suppose he meanes because of that which is said act. . they continued dayly with one accord in the temple , &c. but this doth not cleere it , that these foure particulars must needs be proved , and the reason is ; first , because iudicature which is one of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that scripture ; nor is it said by us , that a dayly exercise thereof is necessary in every church or in any . second , the lord supper , which is another of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that text , at leastwise not in those words or termes which mr. rutherford sets down ; much lesse is it said as he expresseth it , that they did dayly celebrate the same both in the temple and in every private house : nor can the same for ought i know be proved by this or by any other scripture , nor was such a thing ever affirmed by us , so farre as i know . i suppose if they had celebrated it in the temple alone , or in some private house or houses alone , that might have been sufficient , without any necessity of celebrating the same in both places upon one day , both in the temple and in the houses too . nay it is a question whether the lords supper bee at all intended in this place ; though i doubt not but they observed that ordinance , and verse . may possibly teach so much . but for the verse we are speaking of , viz , verse ▪ there is no necessity that the breaking of bread there spoken of , must needs be meant of that ordinance . sure he was a judicious expositor who understands it otherwise , quod hic fractionem panis &c. that is , whereas some expound breaking of bread in this place of the lords supper , it seems to me to be farre from lukes intention : calvin in act. . . so then , of mr rutherfords foure particulars which he saith we must prove , there is not past the halfe of them that needs to be proved at all , the two last being already removed . and for a third which is of breaking of bread dayly and ordinarily from house to house , understand this breaking of bread as calvin doth , of their civill repast , and then it hurts not our cause at all , though it be yeelded that they did dayly meet for such purpose in severall companies , in their private houses ; for this they might do and bee no more but one congregation . there remaines therefore onely one that needs to be proved , namely the first , that they did dayly meete in the temple ; and this may bee proved with case , because the plain words of the text do affirme it , they continued dayly with one accord in the temple ; so that yet we have found nothing that proves ierusalem to be many congregations in one church . nay i conceive , that one of these foure particulars , viz. the first , of their dayly meeting in the temple , doth apparently shew that how great soever the number was , yet it was not exceeding the proportion of one congregation , which might come together in one place ; for the temple was but one in all the city , i meane there was but onely one individuall temple , and not many temples , which if there had been then our brethren might possibly have said , that they met distributively in sundry lesser companies , but were to many too meete all in one congregation ; for so they were wont to expound sundry other phrases used by the holy ghost , to declare their comming together . true say they , they come together , but how ? not collectively all of them together in one place , they were too many for that ; but they came together distributively , some of them in one place , and some in another , and so they think they have answered sufficiently . but now to this of their meeting together in the temple , they cannot answer so ; for then there should have been sundry temples , in which they might have met , distributed into sundry companies ; but there being no more temples but one , and the text affirming plainly that they all met with one accord , in the temple , it must needs be , that they met collectively , all of them together in one and the same place ; and hence it followeth , that they were not so many but still they might be one congregation as well as one church . so that of the foure particulars , which he saith we must prove , some wee see need not to be proved at all , and the first of them which we can prove with case doth make much for the weakning of his cause , and for the strengthening of ours . yea mr. mather will have the whole containing as one independant congregation , act. . , , , . and the many myriads or thousands of beleeving jewes , acts . , , . to meete as one congregation . answ . when in the answer i speake of these places , the word independant was not there used by me at all , but only is here added by himselfe , for what cause himselfe can best tell . but for the matter , i conceive the thing which i there delivered is cleere from the texts themselves , that the multitude of those iewes did assemble and come together , in one place ; for as for one of the places act. . it is expresly there said that the apostles called the multitude together to propose unto them the choice of deacons , verse ▪ and bad them look out from amongst themselves seaven men , qualifyed as the apostles do there describe , verse . whereupon it is said that the saying pleased the whole multitude and they chose seaven who are there named verse . and presented them unto the apostles that they might lay their hands on them , verse . which plainely shewes that the whose multitude how many soever they were , yet were not so many , but they might all assemble in one place , to heare matters proposed to them , to consider thereof , and upon liking to put them in execution , as in other things so in this particular , of making election of officers , as there they are recorded to have done . and as for the other place act. . though it be a question , whether those many thousand iewes , that beleeved were all members , of that one church at jerusalem , yet it cannot be any question , whether they might come together in one place , sith iames and the elders do expresly there say unto paul , the multitude must needs come together , for they will heare that thou art come . nor can we say they might come together onely distributively , in sundry companies , but not all in one place , for the end of their comming together will not beare that exposition , which end was , that they might see , and heare paul , and try what satisfaction he would give them , in the matter whereof they were informed of him , that he taught the iewes , to forsake moses , and to omit circumcision and other iewish customes . these things they were informed to have been taught by him amongst the gentiles , and hearing that he was come to the city , they must needs come together to heare what he would say to the matter , and how hee would cleere himselfe . now if this was the end of their comming together it must needs be that their comming was altogether unto one place , and not in severall companies ; for this could not answer their end , inasmuch as paul being but one person , it was not possible they could see him , nor heare him in sundry places at once ; and therefore they might as well have staid at home , and not have come together at all , as come together in such sort . plaine it is therefore , that the multitude spoken of in these two scripures were not so many but they might meete in one congregation . which point as something hath been said in the answer p. , . for the cleering of it , so i am the more confirmed in it by mr. rutherford his dealing concerning these scriptures . for though he make mention of them in this place , as we see , and of that apprehension of mine concerning those scriptures , yet he doth not at all remove the grounds , which were given for that apprehension in the answer , but doth wholly passe them by in silence . now taking occasion to speak of the scriptures , and relating what my apprehension was concerning the same , and yet saying nothing at all to the gronnds , whereon that apprehension was built , it seemes hereby to bee implyed that indeed he had nothing in readinesse to object against the same . so that i may still conceive of those scriptures as i did before , for any thing yet brought to induce me to be of another mind . as for that which next followes , certainly the apostles practice must be our rule , and then or being so farre beneath or , may well seeme a number for fewnesse not competent , and what shall wee then thinke of only , or . answ . the answer is , that the apostles practise doth not at all condemn ours , though our congregations have not in them the like numbers , but sometimes more and sometimes lesse ; for was it not so in that primative apostolike church ? is it not plain , that that church was for number farre lesser at the first , then afterward , when they grew to or more ; and yet after this they grew to be fewer againe , when persecution scattered them all abroad except the apostles , act. . . and therefore if or , being once the number in that church , be a rule condemning out churches , as being for fewnesse not competent , when they are beneath that number , how will it be avoided but by the same reason the practise of that church at one time , shall be a rule , for the condemning of it self at another time ? for sure it is , their number was not at all times alike , but sometimes more , and sometimes lesse ; as in the sea it is not alwayes full tyde , but sometimes low ebbe , nor is the moone alwayes at full , but sometimes at the change ; nay if the apostles practise must be our rule , then inasmuch as their churches , had not alwayes the like numbers of members in them , but sometimes the number was greater , and sometimes lesser , it will follow therefore that the number of members in our churches needs not alwayes to bee the same , but though greater numbers be lawfull , yet the lawfulnesse of lesser numbers may not be denyed . chap. xiv . whether the church at corinth was one church , meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether cor. . . if the whole church came together in some place &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page . i cannot but thinke that weake which mr. mather and mr. tompson say ( answer page . ) the place cor. . . that speaketh of the whole church comming together to one place doth unavoidably prove , that corinth had their meetings and not by way of distribution into severall congregations , but altogether in one congregation : and it is plaine , that though they had variety of teachers and prophets , yet they all used to come together to one place . answ . if that which wee say be weake , it is more easie for one of such ability and strength as mr. rutherford to overthrow the same . yet it is not words that will suffice , but weight of reason that must availe thereto . let us heare therefore his answer to this passage which he thinkes and censures to be so weake . the place saith he , cor. . . if the whole church come together &c. deth evince the contrary . for the apostle doth there reason ab absurdo , from a great incongruity : it were incongruous saith he , and ridiculous that the whole church of corinth and all their guifted men speaking with tongues ( so that they could not be understood by infidels ) should all convene in one place , and speake with divers tongues : for the unlearned and unbeleevers would say they were madde ; therefore hee presupposeth that the whole church should not all come to one place , but that they should so come to one place , in divers assemblies . — answ . and is it true indeed , that this place doth evince the contrary ? viz. that the church at corinth did not all meet in one congregation : how shall we be assured that such a thing is evinced by the place ? for as for the reason given , &c. that the apostle d●th there reason ab absurdo , or from great incongruity , this doth not prove the thing at all , partly because they might practise something that were not meete but had incongruity in it , and partly ( and more especially ) because the apostle doth not lay the absurdity where mr. rutherford layes it , viz. in the convening of the whole church in one place , but in their speaking with strange tongues when they were convened and come together . touching the former of these , mr. rutherford reasoneth to this effect . if it were an incongruous or un●it thing that the whole church at corinth should come together in one place , then they did not so come together : but the first is true , ergo the second is true also . in which kind of reasoning ( such is our weaknesse ) we thinke neither part of the argument to be free from just exception . for as we wholly deny the assumption , so we also thinke there is no sufficient strength of consequence in the maine proposition , forasmuch as sundry things were practised in that church which were no wayes fit not meet to be practised , and which the apostle doth therefore reprove , and seekes the redresse of the same : witnesse their factions and divisions : chap. . & . their neglecting church censures against the incestuous person , and on the contrary being puffed up , chap. . their going to law one with another before the infidels , chap. . their abuses in prayer and prophesying , their women uncovered and their men covered , chap. . their abuses in the lords supper , when they so came unto it that one was hungry and another drunken , chap. . now as it were an unsufficient kind of arguing to say , these things were unfit and unmeet , and therefore that church did not so practise , even so mr. rutherford his arguing seemes to be no better , who would prove they did come together in one place , because the apostle , as he thinks , did count such comming together unmeet . for if it were granted that such a comming had been unmeet , yet it doth not follow , but such might bee their practise notwithstanding : and therefore as hee counts our apprehension in this matter to be weak , so i leave it to himself and others to consider , whether in this consequence , it was not meet they should all come together in one place , ergo they did it not , be very strong . i desire here not to be mistaken : for i do not grant that their comming together in one place was unmeet , nor that the apostle doth reprove them for the same ; i have already said the contrary , in denying the assumption afore mentioned , which i do still deny . but the thing i intend , is to consider the strength of mr. rutherford his reasoning , and for that cause to apply it to the thing in question , which i still desire to keepe close unto , if it may be . now the thing in question , being this , whether the church at corinth , were so many at that they could nor meet together in one assembly , but had many congregations , and all but one church , and mr rutherford maintaining the affirmative , and bringing this reason for it , taken from the congruity of meeting all together , i therefore thought meet , to weigh the strength of this reason , which i do not perceive to be in any wise convincing : but supposing the apostle had counted such meetings , inconvenient and unmeet , yet this reason as i conceive , is too weak to prove mr. rutherford his purpose , that their number was such as that they could not all possibly meet in one place ; for they might possibly do that which were unmeet to be done , in this particular as well as they did in many other things . but in this particular i do not thinke , they did any thing absurd , or unmeet at all ; and therefore for further answer to this reason i would say : that the apostle doth not say the absurdity , where mr. rutherford layes it , to wit , in that the whole church did convene , and come together , but in speaking with strange tongues when they were convened , this latter being incongruous : and absurd indeed ; for the infidels comming into the church assembly , and hearing them so speake , might thinke them madde , as the apostle sayes ; but for assembling all in one place , i know no madnesse that was in that ; nor shew thereof ; nor do i yet beleeve that the apostle doth place the absurdity there . for though mr. rutherford bee a worthy man and learned , yet such a thing as this had need of some further proofe then his bare word . if a church should meet distributively in divers assemblies , and being so met should speake with strange tongues , i demand whether this manner of speaking , do prove such a way of meeting absurd ; i suppose he will say no , because it is the way of meeting which he holds the apostolike churches did use ; and if so , then suppose they should so speake with strange tongues , when they meet collectively all in one assembly , how can this manner of speaking conclude the absurdity of such kind of meeting any more then it did in the other ? for my part , though such kind of speaking have incongruity and inconveniency in it , yet i conceive assembling collectively and in one congregation is no more prejudiced thereby , then assembling distributively in many . hee ( that is the apostle ) presupposeth that the whole church should come to one place , in divers assemblies , and all prophecy in a tongue known to the infidels , as the unbeleever being convinced and judged of all the prophets might fall down in his face , &c. answ . if the prophets were met in divers assemblies at once , i marvell how the unbeleever should be convinced and judged of them all ; for i hope one singular and individuall unbeleever was not present in divers assemblies at once , nor convinced and judged ( as here he is said to be ) by those prophets , from whose assembly he was absent . eithe● therefore the prophets were all met in one assembly and not in divers , or else it is yet a quaere how he could be convinced by them all . for sure the unbeleever could not be present in sundry assemblies at once . page . the whole church is not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , that did ordinarily meet in one place , the text saith no such thing , and that is to be proved and not taken as granted . answ . suppose it were true , that the whole church was not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , this doth nothing prejudice our cause , for as much as our question is not about the whole much people that beleeved , but about the whole church . if therefore it be granted that the whole church collectively did come together in one place , we have what we desire , and require no more . as for the whole much people that beleeved , whether this be the same with the former or no , wee shall have no need to prove or take for granted that these did in like manner come together , for as much as our question in the termes of it is not about these , but about the other . but why is not the whole church the whole much people that beleeved ? shall we say the whole church is more then the people that beleeved ? or shall wee say it is not so much ? i conceive it must be one of these , or else it must be the same . if it be said it is more , then still we have our desire , if not more then we demand . for if a company that is greater then all the much people that beleeved , were neverthelesse not so great , but they might and did assemble in one congregation , then that much people that beleeved might so assemble much more . for if there be no impossibility but a company that is greater may so assemble , i suppose the same cannot bee denyed of a company that is lesser . againe , to say this whole church was a greater number then the much people that beleeved , is directly to gainsay himselfe , who in page , . makes the much people a greater number then the congregation meeting for the word , sacraments , and church censures ; because such a congregation , he saith , could not conveniently exceed one thousand , whereas the much people must bee much in comparison of thousands of jewes who rejected christ , for that otherwise it would not have beene much for pauls comfort , for which end it is mentioned and brought . if it be said the whole church be lesse then the people that beleeved , then it followes that some of those beleevers were not of the church , and so what himselfe hath written , page . . . will not stand . for in page , hee saith , that the seale of baptisme and the profession of the truth is that which makes one member of the visible church — and by this are all the citizens and domesticks in-churched , and received into a visible church . and page . he saith any who blamelessely professe christ is ecclesiastically — in foro ecclesiae , a true and valid member of the church visible , having ecclesiasticall power valid for that effect , and page . he saith , a visible profession of the truth and doctrine of golinesse is that which essentially constituteth a visible church and every member of the visible church . now if these things be so , then it followes that this whole people that beleeved were all of them members of the church , inasmuch as they were all partakers of baptisme and profession , which he saith do essentially constitute the visible church and every member thereof . and they were all members of the church , then the church was not a lesser company then they . nor can hee say it was a greater company , for the reasons mentioned before . and if it was neither a greater company nor a lesser , was it not then the same . and if it was the same , then how can this stand which he affirmeth in the place wee have in hand , where hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved ? it seemes to me , that which way soever he shall take , his own pen will be witnesse against himselfe ; for in the place wee have in hand , hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved : and in another place hee tels us , that the much people that beleeved was a greater number then the whole church meeting for word , sacraments , &c. and yet in a third place hee tels us , that in effect it was not greater , inasmuch as all baptized professing beleevers , hee saith , are of the church . further , when the text speakes of the whole church comming together in some place , let the wise judge whether it be a good exposition to say , by the whole is not meant the whole , but only a part . which i conceive is mr. rutherfords exposition , who will not yeeld that the whole did come together in any one place , but part in one place , and part in another , the whole being distributed into severall parts , and those parts into severall places . so that the whole church comming together into some place , must have this meaning , the whole came not together in any place , but part in one place and part in another , which i feare is too much violence offered to the sacred text , which should be handled with reverence . but he brings a reason for this exposition , and that is this , because else we must say that at any one assembly all the prophets and teachers did prophesy at corinth ; for the text saith , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , whereas the consequence should bee absurd , it should bee a longsome and wearisome meeting , page . answ . and if they prophesyed not all in one assem●ly but divers , how could the unbeleever bee convinced and judged by them all ? it will not bee easie to conceive how it could be , they prophesying in such a way : for the unbeleever sure could not be present in sundry assemblyes at once , but in one onely . and therefore , those words , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , will lay as much absurdity upon his exposition of the words as upon ours , or rather a great deale more . for as for ours , there is no absurdity therein at all , for asmuch as by all the prophets is meant all that prophesied at the time , when the unbeleever was present , and not that all must prophesy upon one day as mr. rutherford would have it . but the text doth not so say , nor any interpreter that i have met withall . sure i am beza saith , the expresse contrary , for upon verse . ye may all prophesy one by one , &c. he hath this note , non eodem sane die , sed ternis &c. that is indeed not all upon one day ( which is mr. rutherfords exposition ) but three at every moeing , having their turne to speak till all had spoken by course . interpreters say they met in divers assemblies , page . answ . let those interpreters be named ; and there words set down , and then by gods help we shall consider of what they say , and of the grounds and reasons thereof ▪ in the meane time to say that interpreters say it , and yet neither to tell us the reasons nor the words of those interpreters , nor so much as the names of any of them , how should this prevaile with us to turne us away from our former apprehensions in the point ? true it is in another place , &c. pag . speaking of verse . yea may all prophesy one by one , hee there tels us that diodatus understands it that they might prophecy , by course and in divers or sundry assemblies ; and essius , saith he , saith the same , to wit , that these prophets were to prophesy in divers assemblies . answ . for diodatus i have him not at hand , and therefore i cannot peruse the place ; but for estius , this i may say , that he neither saith what here is reported in his commentary upon the verse alledged , nor upon any verse else in all the chapter , as farre as i can observe , and i have read and perused him on purpose to see what were to be found in him : but though i cannot find him affirming that which mr. rutherford brings him for , yet i find sundry places , wherein he seemes to me to affirme the contrary ; for instance , commenting upon the verse alledged , hee hath these words as the sence which he most preferres , viz. quod si non unus tantum propheta sed plures &c. that is , if not only one prophet but sundry , yea all do speake in the assembly in order , it will come to passe that those all may also learne , and receive exhortation , there being never a one of them , who is not also a hearer . wherein we see he speaks not one word of prophesying in divers assemblies at the same time , but that they were so to prophesy that all of them were to be hearers , and learners , as well as speakers . which doth plainly imply , that there must be many prophets in one assembly at once . againe , upon verse ● , he hath these words as the sense of the place , quamvis forte multi suit in ecclesiae — vestra prophetae &c. that is , although perhaps there be many prophets in your church , yet it will be sufficient if two or three do speake at one meeting , and for others it shall be their duty to judge , that is to say , to examine and try whether these things be true and sound which are spoken by them that speake . wherein he plainly shewes his judgement to be that at one meeting they were to have many prophets present , of whom two or three onely were to speake , and the rest to try and examine what was spoken . and to the same purpose he speakes upon verse . which he counts to be the same with that of judging , verse . further these words verse . of the whole church comming together into one place , he expounds thus , alicujus loci totus populus fidelis , that is , all the faithfull or beleeving people of a place ; which is contrary to mr. rutherford who will not have the whole church , to be the whole much people that beleeved . finally , speaking of those words verse . if all prophesy , he hath these words , nec omnes inteligit absoluté , &c. that is , the apostle understands not all absolutely but to this sense , to wit , if all that speake in the assembly of the church do prophesy , that is , if prophets only do speake , and they that have the gift of tongues do hold their peace . which is contrary to mr. rutherford who understands the text so , that they were all to prophesie at one time ; and because at one meeting there were but two or three to prophesie , which two or three hee thinkes could not be all , hee will therefore have it that they were distributed into severall assemblies , and so did prophesie all at once , though onely two or three at one meeting . for which interpretation , though he alledgeth estius , yet estius wee see affords him no help at all . whereupon i have marvelled why estius should be alledged , sometimes thinking with my selfe whether his name might not bee mis-printed by the printer , instead of some other man ; sometimes thinking whether mr. rutherford his memory might not faile him in this particular , having read the thing in some other author , and supposing it had been in estius . but what ever might be the reason of this mistake , he that shall examine estius will not find in him any help at all for mr. rutherfords cause in this particular , but the contrary . the text saith expresly , verse , that at one time they prophesied but two or three . answer . this is a mistake also : for the words are , let the prophets speake two or three , and let the other judge . now let them do so , doth not shew their practise , but their duty : not what they did , but what they should have done . the text saith , if there be no interpreter let him that hath an unknown tongue keepe silence in the church , verse . and let your women keepe silence in the churches , verse . now shall any man say , that these texts do expresly prove that it was the manner of their women and of their men that had unknown tongues to keepe silence . i suppose no man can say it , the words being not a report of what their practise was , but a rule of direction to shew them how they ought to practise . and so wee say of the case in hand . but let it be supposed that it was not onely their duty , but also their practise to prophesie at one meeting but onely two or three , what can master rutherford gaine heereby ? his words following do tell us , where hee saith , if two onely prophesyed at one assembly , as this text will warrant cleerely . answ . not so , the text allowes three , which is more then two onely . but go on , and let us heare the consequence . then how doth this whole church consisting of all the beleevers at corinth , as is supposed by our brethren , convince the infidell , so as it may beare this sence , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all ▪ can two prophets be all prophets ? answ . though wee suppose the whole church consisted of all the beleevers at corinth , yet that the whole church did convince the the infidell , this wee never said nor supposed at all : for wee supposed and so do still , that hee was to bee convinced onely by the prophets , besides whom there were many others that were of the church . but for his demand , whether two prophets can bee all prophets , the answer is , that though two bee not all where there are more then two , yet if there bee no more , there it is otherwise ; and so where there are but two or three that doe prophesie at one meeting , there hee that is convinced by those two or three , may bee said to bee convinced of all , that is of all that doe prophesie . this sence of the place must needs bee received , else how shall the apostles words bee reconciled and stand together ? for as in one verse hee requireth , that the prophets speake two or three at one meeting , and the rest to iudge , verse . and in another verse affirmeth that the infidell in the case there proposed , is judged of all , verse . so hee doth not onely suppose in the very same verse , that they did all prophesie , if all , prophesie saith hee , and there come in one that beleeveth not , &c. but moreover in verse . hee expresly and plainely allowes them thus to prophesie ; yee may all prophesie , saith hee , one by one , that all may learne and all may bee comforted . which places compared doe evince the sence of the words heere given , and doe plainely shew that what hee saith verse . of the infidell being convinced of all and judged of all , may bee truely made good , if hee bee convinced of all and iudged of all that prophesyed at that meeting , though their number that so prophesyed were no more but two or three . and therefore whereas hee concludes , surely for my part i thinke it must unavoidably bee said , that they prophesyed distributively and in severall congregations , the answer is , that this needs not to bee said at all , but may bee avoided with ●ase ; and the contrary may bee safely held ; to wit , that they pro●●●cied collectively and in one congregation . for first , they did so prophesy , that one that beleeved not , and one unlearned might come in amongst them when they were prophesying , and by that meanes might bee convinced of all and judged of all , verse . which might well bee done , if they prophesyed all in one congregation , but otherwise it could not , for as much as one unbeleever could not bee present in severall congregations at once . secondly , they were so to prophesie , that the prophets when they prophecied were to have the rest of the prophets to bee 〈◊〉 , to heare and iudge of that which was delivered , let the prophets speake two or three , and the rest judge , verse . and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets , verse . the former of which sayings mr. rutherford himselfe doth understand of a colledge prophets , having a power dogmaticall of judging , and censuring the doctrine of the prophets delivered . what they speake , saith he , page . is to bee judged and put under censure ; for the whole colledge must judge ; for which he alledgeth verse . and a little after , this is not a power of judging which every christian hath , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith piscator doth relate to the prophets , who are to judge ; but as ● take it a propheticall judging , which may warrant the iuridicall power of a presbytery , &c. by all which it plainely appeareth that when the prophets did prophesy , the other prophets were to bee present , to heare and judge of the doctrines delivered ; and if so , how can it bee that they prophesyed in severall congregations at the same time ? for had it been so , they could not have judged of one anothers doctrine , which they could not heare , being themselves at that time imployed in speaking in some other place . and therefore it seemes more likely , that they met in one congregation , where they might all prophesy , first one and then another , some at one time and some at another , and so all of them might also heare and learne , and judge of the doctrine delivered by others . chap. xv. whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , and the judgement of mr. baynes ; whether that church was many congregations , or one onely ? pag . . having suggested sundry things , to prove that ephesus was many congregations , and yet but one church ; hee concludes this , viz. upon these considerations , i leave to our reverend brethren their judgement ; if mr. mather and mr. thompson say right , we doe not thinke they were more in number at ephesus then in corinth and jerusalem , where the christians met all in one place . answ . the exception then which in this place is taken against mr. thompson and me , is for this , that we doe not thinke the christians at ephesus , to be more in number then at jerusalem and corinth . concerning which , i will not say much , but onely this , that as we have onely delivered what we think in this matter , without determining or asserting any thing peremptorily ; so we shall readily imbrace the contrary , when good grounds shall be shewed for the same : which though we doe not yet perceive to be performed in all that mr. rutherford hath said ; yet i will not here spend time in examining the same , because i do not count this point of so much importance concerning the principall thing in question . for whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , or whether it were otherwise ; there is no great matter in this as touching the maine question . for if all of them were such churches , as might usually meet together in one congregation , as i conceive they were ▪ it matters not much which of them was most in number . but doth not m. rutherford prove that the one church at ephesus was more then one congregation ? i confesse , he hath sundry things in the precedent pages , which he intendeth that way . but in asmuch as they doe not concerne m. tompson and me in particular , nor are by him applyed against any passage in the answer ; i will therefore passe them over more briefly , my purpose being chiefly , to consider of such particulars , wherein he takes exception against the answer . only , thus much i would advertise the reader , that a good part of that which mr. rutherf . brings to prove many congregations in one church at ephesus , hath been answered long agoe by mr. baynes in his diocesans triall , pag. . which i the rather commend to mr. rutherfords consideration , because , he counts him a man of worth , calling him worthy baynes : and for the help of such readers , as cannot readily come to the book it self , i will here transcribe a few lines out of the same worthy baynes , as they are to be found in his dioces . triall . p. , . viz. the church of ephesus was but one flock ; first , it is likely that it was of no other forme then the other . ( sir , ierusalem , antioch and corinth , which he had before shewed to be each of them one congregation . ) secondly , it was but one flock , that which presbyters might joyntly feed : they had no diocesan paster : if presbyters onely , then none but parishonall churches in and about ephesus : theremay be many flocks , but god ordained none but such as may wholely meet with those who have the care of feeding and governing of them : peter indeed pet. . . calleth all those he writteth unto one flock , but that is in regard either of the mysticall estate of the faithfull , or in respect of the common nature , which is in all churches one and the same : but properly and in externall adunation , one flock is but one congregation . thirdly , parishes according to the adverse opinion were not then divided : neither doth the long and fruitfull labours of the apostle argue that there should bee parish churches in diocesan wise added , but a great number of sister churches . but when it is said , that all asia did heare , the meaning is that from hand to hand , it did runne through asia ; so as churches were planted every where , even where paul came not , as at collosse : there might be many churches in asia , and many converted by peter , and others fruitfull labours , without subordination of churches . chap. xvi . whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation , and whether acts . . and . . doe not prove the affirmative . the answer , having in pag. . alledged acts. . . and . , . to prove that the church at antioch was no more then might be gathered together into one place , mr. rutherford in answer hereto saith , p. , . that the place acts . . is the representative church , and that he beleeveth the assembling of the multitude , acts . vers . . must be taken distributively . answ . this answer of mr. rutherfords , to the former place , was removed long ago by worthy mr. baynes , who also understands the latter place as we doe , and not as mr. rutherford : for in his dioces . triall , maintaining this position , that the churches instituted by the apostles , were onely such as might meet in one congregation ordinarily , and giving this very place and instance of the church of antioch , for one of his grounds , for confirming the said position , p. . hee comes imediately thereupon to answer an objection , which is the very same that here mr. rutherford brings to the former place , viz. that the church mentioned in that place , was the ministers or representative church : for the removing whereof mr. baynes returneth . things , . that the word church , is never so used : . he argues by analogy from that acts . where peter gives account before the whole church , even the church of the faithfull , and therefore in like sort , paul and barnabas might report before the whole church of the faithfull , what things god had done by them . . saith he , they made relation to that church which had sent them forth , with prayer and imposition of hands ; and this church stood of all those who assembled to the publicke service and worship of god , ( which is cleere , acts . . ) . his fourth particular is this other place of acts . vers . . where , saith he , the people of the church of antioch were gathered together , to consider of decrees sent them by the apostles from ierusalem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . in all which , we cleerly perceive the judgement of this worthy man to be the same with us , and as clearly against mr. rutherford , as can be expressed , which being so , and his judgement being delivered upon such reasons , as seem to me weighty , and which mr. rutherford doth not remove ; i therefore see no sufficient reason to think otherwise of the church of antioch then formerly . for as for m. rutherford his reason to prove the place , acts . . to be meant of a representative church , viz. that they met for a matter of discipline , at least for a matter that concerned all the churches , to wit , to know how god had opened the doore of saith unto the gentiles : the answer is , that this doth not evince the thing : . because rehearsing , how god had opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles , being neither admission of members , nor of officers , nor any matter of censure , nor any thing else ; but onely a meer declaration of the gracious workings of the lord , cannot be any matter of discipline , as i conceive . . suppose it were a meeting for matter of discipline , must it needs be a meeting for elders alone , without the presence of the faithfull ? will mr. rutherford deny it to be l●wfull for any to be present at matters of discipline , but onely the elders ? i suppose he will not deny it at all , sure i am he hath heretofore written otherwayes ; peaceable plea p. . where he granteth that all matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , and alledgeth about . or . divines old and new for the same tenet . now if matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , then the people must be present thereat ; for else they give their consent blindefold . and if they must be present at such matters ; then suppose the matter mentioned in the scripture we have in hand , had been of that nature , yet the church that was gathered together about the same , needed not to be a representative church of elders alone , as mr. rutherford would have it , but might consist of the people also , who by his own grant may be lawfully present at such matters . . be it a matter of discipline , or a matter that concerned all the churches , or what else mr. rutherford will have it ? it is plain that paul and barnabas when they were at ierusalem , did declare such matters as here they do declare at antioch , not onely to the apostles and elders , whom he perhaps would make a representative church , but also to a church besides them , i mean besides the apostles and elders ; for so it is said , acts . . that at ierus●lem they were received of the church , and of the apostles and elders , and declared all things that god had done with them : and vers . . they declared to the multitude what miracles and wonders god had wrought among the gentiles by them . now if they declared these things at ierusalem not onely to the apostles and elders , as to a representative church , but to the church of the faithfull also , as the text saith , they did , what reason can be rendred that the church , which was gathered together at antioch , should be onely a representative church ? and that the people there were not present ? for my part , i see no reason for it , but that they might declare these things to the brethren a● antioch , as well as to the brethren at ierusalem ; and as well to a representative church at ierusalem , as to a representative church at antioch . and therefore sith it is apparent that at ierusalem they declared these things to a church , which consisted of others besides apostles and elders ; the church at antioch to whom they declared the same things , might be also a church of the like kinde , and not a representative church , as our brother conceives it to be . . the nature of the thing , which they doe declare to this church was such , as that it was fit enough for the people to be acquainted therewith ; which the text mentions in two clauses ; first , more generally , all that god had done with them : secondly , more specially , how he had opened the doore of faith to the gentiles . now suppose the people had nothing to do in matters of judicature by way of power therein , yet to be informed of other peoples conversion , and how god blessed the labors of the apostles to that end , which are the things they declared to this church , these are no such matters , but the people may bee acquainted therewith for their comfort , and that god might have praises from them all ; and therefore the church to whom paul and barnabas declared these things , needs not to be understood of the elders alone , but may well enough be a church consisting also of ordinary christians . . paul thought it not unmeet to make known to all the corinthians the grace of god bestowed on the churches of macedonia , cor. . , . and declareth to them of macedonia , the forwardnesse of the corinthians in the grace of liberality , cor. . . shewing the good that came hereby , in that the example of gods grace , in some provoked many others to the like , cor. . . your zeale , saith he , hath provoked very many ; and likewise in that , by this meanes , there redounded many thanksgivings unto god , vers . , . and if upon these and other good causes he did thus practice towards the christians of macedonia and achaia , i know no good reason why he and barnabas should deal otherwise with the christians at antioch , and conceale from them the gracious workings of god by their ministery amongst the gentiles ; and make known the same onely to a representative church of elders . as for our brothers answer to the other scripture , act. . . that the assembling of the multitude , there spoken of , must be taken distributively , i conceive the text will not beare that exposition : for the words are that they gathered the multitude together , then delivered the epistle . now if this multitude was gathered together not in one assembly but diverse , how could the epistle being but one , be delivered to them all ? can one epistle be delivered to sundry or severall assemblies at one time ? i suppose it is not possible , except we shall imagine there be sundry coppies , one to be read in one assembly , and another in another ; whereof in the present case , there is not so much as the least hint . and if we would imagine such a matter , for which there is small reason ; yet since it is , iudas and silas , by whom this epistle was sent , and who were to tell the same things by mouth , and who also upon the delivering of the epistle exhorted the breathren of antioch , with many words , as is cleare , vers . , , , . iudas and sila● , i say , being but two men could not be present , and speak , and act these things in many assemblies at once , but must of necessity be both in one assembly , or at the most in two : but the text makes no mention of their being in two , but plainly enough intimates the contrary , that they were both together : and yet where they were present , there was the multitude gathered together , to receive the epistle by their hands , and to heare the report and word of exhortation at their mouth . unlesse therefore we will imagine that iudas and silas could be present , and act in many assemblies at once , there is no reason to think this multitude among whom they were present and acted , to be many congregations or assemblies . and therefore for his conclusion , pag. , . that the mentioning of one multitude in the singular number , acts . . can never prove that there was but one single congregation at antioch . the answer is , that we doe not lay the force of our reason in the mentioning of the multitude in the singular number , and therefore it can not thus be satisfied , or put off : for our words are these : the whole multitude of them were gathered together at the return of paul and barnabas from the synod at jerusalem , to heare the epistle read , which was sent from that synod : answer p. . wherein it is easie to perceive , that we lay the force of our reason not in this , that the church is called a multitude in the singular number ; but in this , that the whole multitude were gathered together , for such an end , as there is expressed : and this we still conceive may prove the point : for a church , which is such a multitude , as is gathered together , for the receiving of one epistle , which was sent unto them all , and which is gathered together to heare the epistle read , and also to heare the same things by mouth , the men from whose mouth they must so heare , and from whose hands they must so receive , being no more but two ; such a church as this can be no more , but one congregation , or assembly . now antioch was such a church : and therefore was no more but one congregation . if this conclusion be not granted , some way must be devised how many severall assemblies might all be receivers and hearers of one and the same epistle at the same time , there being but one coppy of the epistle , as also how they might at one time heare the same things declared to them by mouth , when there was but two men to declare the same . and when such a way is found out , we may then further consider thereof . but in the mean time , the grounds and reasons alledged doth induce me to think , that antioch , where those things were thus done , was indeed , but one congregation . chap. xvii . whether no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same , as well as men : and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . in the answer , p. . we have these words , viz. governing properly so called we acknowledge not in any , but in the elders alone , cor. . vers . . rom. . . heb. . . if that word be ascribed to the people , it must be understood in a more improper sense ; for that which impropriety of speech were more fitly called liberty or priviledge : and yet this liberty when it is exercised about ordination , deposition , excommunication , &c. is of the whole body communiter , or in generall , but not of all and every member in particular , as you conceive us to hold ; for women and children are members , and yet are not to act in such matters , the one being debarred by their sex , and the other for want of understanding and discretion . this passage mr. rutherford having related ( though with some variation ) in his pag. : in answer thereto , he saith thus , p. . if there be no governing power in women , nor any act at all in excommunication , you loose many arguments , that you bring cor. . to prove that all have hand in excommunication , . because paul writeth to all . . all were to mourne . . all were to forbeare the company of the excommunicated : then belike paul writeth not to all saints at corinth , not to women , and women were not to mourne for the scandall , nor to forbeare his company . answ . if mr. tompson and i doe being such arguments from cor. . why is not the place quoted , where we doe bring them ? i suppose there is no such place at all that can be produced ; and therefore i desire so much favour , that what we never said , may not be imputed to us , nor divulged abroad , as ours . if others doe bring such arguments from cor. . they that bring them are able to speake for themselves , and to give account of their own arguments ; but i know no reason that doth require , that we should be drawn to defend such arguments as we never used ; nor that doth allow our reverend brother to report such arguments as ours ; which having never been used by us , i counted it therefore an impertinent digression , to spend time in the defence of them . the priviledge , saith he , being a part of liberty purchased by christs body , it must be due to 〈…〉 for the liberty wherewith christ hath made women free , cannot be taken away 〈…〉 of god from their sex , except in christ iesus there be a difference between iew and gentile , male and female . answ . that which is in the people , we say , in propriety of speech , is more ●itly called liberty or priviledge : but of liberty purchased by christs body or blood , we make no mention at all : and therefore our brother might have spared speech thereof . but it is true indeed , that the people can have no liberty , but women also may exercise the 〈…〉 else their liberty purchased for them by christ is taken away ? it seems , he so conceives : but then i desire to know how his own doctrine elsewhere , and the apostl●s w●●ds can stand together : for in one place , he saith , that acts . . proveth that elders ordaine elder , with lifting up of the hands of the people , and this , saith he , is 〈…〉 doctrine , due right p. . and in another place , he saith , the people have gods right to choose ministers , for so the word prescribeth ; for which in his margent he alledgeth 〈◊〉 severall texts of scripture , acts . . cor. . . . cor. . . acts . . acts . . and in his text alledgeth tertullian , cyprian , ambrose , origen , chrysostome , the councell of nice , the first generall councell of constantinople , with other councels and authors witnessing the same : pag. , . and in a third place , he grants that all matters in the church must be done with the peoples consent , consentiente plebe , alledging a matter of . or . authors for the same tenet . peaceable plea , p. . and in another place he alledgeth and approveth the judgement of mr. calderwood , and mr. cartwright affirming that this liberty is purchased by the blood of christ : due right , secondly , pag. . all which , do plainly shew that in his judgement , the people have some 〈◊〉 , or priviledge , or right in church matters ; yea , as himself saith in this , they have divinum jus , gods right : and yet for all this , the apostles words do plainly forbid women to speak in the church , cor. . . tim. . . which very prohibition to women doth also secretly imply , that men may have liberty to practise , though women may not . now then , if the people have liberty , priviledge , right to consent , and act in church matters ; yea , to speak in the church , and yet women may not speak therein , how can this stand , which here m. rutherford writes , that if the people have any liberty , this liberty must also be due to women ? if the apostles words and our brothers own doctrine in the places cited do stand , his saying in the place , we have now in hand , cannot stand , they being so contrary one to another . thirdly , saith he , what priviledge the people have in ordination to conferre a ministery , which they neither have formally , nor virtually , i know not . answ . neither formally , nor virtually ? then hear your own words , pag. . i deny not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , hic & nunc ; this power is virtuall , not formall , &c. whereas in the place we have in hand , the virtuall power as well as the formall is denyed ; which things are not free from interferring , or strong appearance thereof . our words are not just the same which m. rutherford sets downe , a priviledge in ordination to conferre a ministery ; but these are our words , a liberty exercised about ordination , &c. and who knows not but there may be a liberty exercised about ordination , or any other ordinance by way of consent thereto , or desire thereof , &c. without any authoritative acting therein ? and if this liberty about ordination be such a fault , then how shall he be justified , who doth give to the people a greater matter then this liberty doth amount unto , even a power to do that which shall stand for ordination it selfe ? which to do i conceive is more then to exercise some liberty about ordination . and when the reader shall have considered these ensuing words of m rutherford : then let him be judge , whether m. rutherford do not give this power unto the people in some cases . as a rose , saith he , caused to grow in winter by art , is of that same nature with a rose produced in summer by nature , though the manner of production be different ; so are they both true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors , p. . and in the page following , he gives two reasons to prove that in some cases election by the people onely may stand for ordination : . because god is not necessarily tyed to succession of pastors : . because where men are gifted for the work of the ministery , and there be no pastors to be had , the giving of the holy ghost is a signe of a calling of god , who is not wanting to his own gracious intention , though ordinary means faile . now if the people without pastors may do that which shall stand for ordination , and if their election do make a minister in some cases ; this seems to be more then onely to exercise some liberty about ordination , for as much as they may doe this latter , and possibly no minister be made thereby ; whereas in the other case a man is made a true pastor and minister , as well as by ordination it selfe . marvell it is therefore that the greater is allowed as lawfull , and not the lesser : that some liberty about ordination may not be allowed , and yet that can be allowed which may stand for ordination it self , and which makes a minister● as truly as ordination doth . chap. xviii . of mr. rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . next after this , our reverend author falls to scanning , as he saith , pag. . some synodicall propositions of the churches of new england , as he calls them , together with a table of church power , which he calls the table of new england . but with favour of soworthy a man , he doth greatly mistake the matter : for neither was there any such synod , nor synodicall propositions as he speaks of , nor any such table of new england , as hee mentioneth . there was indeed at cambridge in the year . a printed conference of some of the elders of that country ; where sundry points of church judgement were privatly discoursed of , and this was all . but as the meeting was not any synod , as synods are usually understood , so neither were there any synodicall propositions there agreed upon , nor any table of propositions agreed upon to be given forth as the doctrine of new england . this i am able to testifie , having been present at that meeting from the beginning thereof unto the end : and sundry others of the elders of these churches can testifie the same , upon the same ground : and knowing full well the truth of what i heare relate , i will not spend time in replying to what he hath written upon so manifest misinformation , and mistake . what information he goeth upon , i know not : per adventure some notes may have come to his view , which one or other might gather at that conference for his own private use : peradventure some in their simplicity meaning no hurt , many have called that private conference by the name and tearme of a syno● , and m. rutherford might thereupon adventure to publish in print as here we see . but however they mistake a rose , sure i am , synodicall propositions there were none ; 〈◊〉 any synod at all , not new england table . and therefore i think himselfe and others may do well and wisely hereafter , to be informed by good and sufficient intelligence of such things as they publish to the world concer●ing the churches in new england , or else not to beleeve the same , much lesse to divulge the same in print . for what comfort can it be to any christian to receive , and publish to the world against a mans neighb●u● , specially against whole churches of christ , such reports as for the matter contained in them do not agree with truth ? chap. xix . of the appeales of luther and cranmer : and of the power and jurisdiction in generall councells denyed by mr. rutherford ; whether therein he do not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the jurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . in his page . alledging mr. tompson and me , pag. , . hee reports us to say , that though some have appealed , as luther and cranmer from the pope to a generall councell , yet not from a congregation to a generall councell . answ . as he one of these pages hath nothing at all concerning this matter , and therefore might well have been spared , so neither of them both doth make any mention of luther , either of one purpose or other : and therefore it is some marvaile , why he should be mentioned as thus spoken of by us , who do not speak of him at all so much as one word , for any purpose whatsoever . nor do the rest of the words of appealing from a congregation to a generall councell agree with ours , as we have set them downe in the . page alledged ; and therefore that our mind and meaning may appeare , let me relate our own words which are these , how this example ( sc . of cramners appealing to councell , related by mr. fox ) doth suit the present question , we do not understand ; for his appeale was not from a particular congregation , but from the pope : nor was it from a synod , but to the next generall councell , which from that day to this hath not yet been assembled nor called . if we must hold a necessity of appeales to such a iudicatory as cranmer appealed unto , then the supremacy of synods provinciall , and nationall is utterly taken away . these are our words in the place alledged by mr. rutherford : now what doth he answer thereto ? in matters doctrinall , saith he , some as luther , and others have justly appealed from congregation to a generall councell , though luther and cranmer did it not . answ . say it be true , that cranmer did it not , yet for luther how can it be that he should be an instance , both of such as did it not , and of such as did it ? for luther and others have justly done it , and yet luther and cranmer are two of them that did it not , these are sayings which seem not to agree . againe , if luther did so appeale , why is no proof alledged for confirmation of what here is affirmed ? which if there had been , we might have considered thereof . but sith there is not , we may be allowed to forbeare assent , till that which is here nakedly affirmed , be further strengthened by some proofe or other , to make it good . lastly , if luther or others have justly appealed from a congregation to a generall councell , then why will it not be lawfull for others upon like occasion to do the like ? and if so , then ( as we argued in the answer ) the supremacy of classicall , provinciall , and nationall presbyteries is utterly taken away : and so , by this meanes causes and controversies may still be depending , and never come to be determined so long as this world shall endure ; which whether it be agreeable to the wisdome of christ , and good of his people let the wise judge . though verily , i professe , i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls , can be in a generall councell ; there may be some meerly doctrinall power , if such a councell could be had , and that is all . answ . for my part , i am altogether of the same minde . but here i have a quere or two to propose to our reverend brothers serious consideration ; first of all , how this passage doth agree with that which himself hath written , pag. . where he saith , it may be made good that a power dogmaticall is not different in nature from a power of jurisdiction , and that we read not of any society , which hath power to meet to make lawes and decrees , which have not power also to back their decrees with punishment . yea , he saith further that if the jewish synodry might meet to declare judicially what was gods law in point of conscience , and what not , farre more may they punish contraveners of the law : for anomothetick power in a society , which is the greater power , and is in the fountaine , must presuppose in the society 〈◊〉 lesser power , which is to punish . anomothetick power ministeriall cannot want a power of censuring . so that whereto in the place we have in hand , he saith , there may be in a generall councell , some 〈◊〉 doctrinall power without any power of jurisdiction to censure , in this other place , he saith , these powers do not differ in nature , nor can the former be without the latter ; but doth alwayes presuppose the same , as that which is lesser , and which it cannot want . now how these things do agree i am not able to understand : next of all how doth this passage we have in hand agree , with that which is written p. , . where he saith , it is by accident , and not through want of inate and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councell can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise the power which christ hath given to her ; and what that power is he expresseth in two or three lines proceeding , viz. a power of jurisdiction to excommunicate and relax from excommunication even nationall churches . if the lord should be pleased to give the christian churches a generall councell this day , might lawfully in a jurisdictiall way declare the faction of the romish pretended catholicks to be mysticall babylon — which in excommunication in the essence and substance of the act . and againe , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a generall councell . and in page . he tells in that a power of jurisdiction ( though he call it extraordinary and remote , and which is but rarely to be put forth in acts ) is given to the catholick visible presbytery , of the whole catholick visible church . in all which places he plainly affirmeth there is a power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls in a generall councell , which in the place we have in hand he doth as plainly deny . thirdly , if there be no power of jurisdiction to censure scandals in a generall councell , then how shall it appeare that there is such power of jurisdiction in the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , which are farre lesse ? yea , and that there is in these presbyteries a power independent and supreame , without appeale to any other . for such power there must be in some of them , if there be any power of jurisdiction in them at all , sith we are told there is no power of jurisdiction in the generall councell to appeale unto . now how shall it appeare that any such independent supream power of jurisdiction is given to any of those presbyteries ? where are the texts of scripture that speak of such power ? for our parts we know of none , but do still think that this power is placed by christ in a single congregation and its presbytery , and are the rather strengthened in this apprehension , for that the reason which is wont to be given against the congregations power , and wherein our brethren are wont to place their greatest strength , sc . that appeals are juris naturalis , and that defects , in the parts are to be supplyed and holden by the whole , this reason we see is now removed and utterly taken away , forasmuch as all power of jurisdiction is denyed to the generall councell which is the inevitable . now if there be no power of jurisdiction within the generall councell , then there can be no appeals to such a councell for such an end : and if no appeales to that councell , then the rule doth not alwayes hold , that there must be appeals from the lesser assemblies to the greater : and if this do not alwayes hold , then there may be independent power of jurisdiction in a congregation without appeals from the same , though it be a lesser assembly then the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , and thus our purpose is gained . for how can it be avoided , except this power of jurisdiction ( yea supream or independent power ) which is denyed to the generall councell , could be proved to be in the classes , synods , or nationall presbyteries , which we think cannot be done . indeed to say on the one side , that 〈◊〉 is no independent power in the congregation , and to say on the other side , that there is no power at all of jurisdiction in generall councells , this doth inevitably lay a necessity of such independent power in these intermediat assemblies of the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries ; except we shall say there is no such power at all appointed by christ in any church assemblies on earth . now if such independent power be given to the presbyteries mentioned , ( as it needs must if it be neither in the generall councell , nor in the single congregations ) then i desire to know upon what scripture or scritures , such power in the said presbyteries is grounded and built ; and whether the said power belong unto them all , or only unto some of them , and which they be , and why not to the rest as well : yea , why not to the single congregation , nor yet to the generall councell , as well as to any of them . when this quaere is answered , and the answer sufficiently proved by scripture , then we shall see more reason for the jurisdiction of such assemblies over the particular congregations then yet we have seen . in the mean , time this quaere with the rest i leave to our brethrens consideration . chap. xx. if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether it would not thence follow , that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrews , who chose the seven deacons , act. . were two congregations or one onely . pag . . if churches must be dependent on synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , by the same reason churches must end in a monarchy on earth ; for which he alledgeth the answ . pag. . and then subjoyneth his answer , thus : i see this said without any approbation : churches depend on many above them for unity ; but what consquence in this , erg● they depend upon one visible monarch ? it is an unjust consequence . answ . with favour of so worthy a man , he greatly wrongs our words ( and thereby wrongs the reader ) by leaving out those words wherein the plainenesse and strength of our argumentation lyes . therefore i am forced here to relate the order and progresse of the dispute in that script of ours , and to set down our words there used , because as mr. rutherford hath set them down , the strength of consequence is suppressed from the readers knowledge , and so indeed his answer is made easie : but the naked truth lyes thus . our reverend brother to whose treatise we return answer in that small piece of ours , having said , that communion and assistance in government is taught by the very light of nature to all societies whatsoever , whether commonwealths , or armies , universities , or navies ; he presently addeth by way of prevention . not that therefore this government of churches should ( as those ) end in a monarchy upon earth . in answer whereto , besides other things , we have these words , pag. . if churches must be dependent on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever , then we see not how it will be avoided , but by the same reason , churches must end in a monarchie on earth , if it were once cleared , that the light of nature doth teach all societies whatever so to end ; so there is as good reason for this as for the other . which last words , if it were once proved &c. mr. rutherford wholy leaves out and suppresseth , and so makes his own answer more easie . but i desire so much favour , which i think is but reasonable , that he that will undertake to answer our writing , would represent our words and arguing as it is , and no otherwise , and then i am content that the same may come under tryall . now our arguing is this ; if churches must be dependent upon the government of synods upon this reason ; because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever ; then by the like reason let it be once proved ( which is by mr. herle affirmed ) that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in a monarchy , and it will thereupon follow that churches must likewise end in the same manner . if we yeeld thus much that what the light of nature teacheth other societies , the same must be observed in the government of churches : i think it will then follow , that if the light of nature teach other societies to end in a monarchy on earth , the government of churches must do so also . this is our manner of arguing , in which the consequence is the same with that which our brethren think so strong , viz. that because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , therefore there must be in the churches a government of synods . if any say the consequence is not alike necessary in both cases , because the ground doth not hold alike in both , for the light of nature doth not teach all societies on earth to end in a monarchie , as it doth teach a communion and assistance in government the answer in that we have plainly said the same , in the place of the answerer alledgeth , viz. p. , . but the main question lyes not there , whether other societies do end in monarchies , ( for though the reverend author whom we there doe answer , do seem so to judge ; yet we have there plainly declared , that we conceive of that matter otherwise : ) but here doth lye the main question , viz. suppose it were granted , that light of nature doth teach all societies to end in a monarchy on earth , whether would it not then follow that churches must also so end : and that this is the thing in question wil plainly appear to any that shall peruse the place . and to this question , our answer is that the consequence for the affirmative is as good as in that other case , in which our brethren do think it so strong : viz. for the government of synods over congregations , from the communion and assistance — government taught by the light of nature to other societies : and our reverend brother granting that the light of nature doth teach the one as well as the other unto other societies , that is , that they should end in monarchies , as well as have communion in government , our answer is that thereupon the consequence will be as strong for the one as for the other in churches . in which arguing it is easie to perceive that we go upon the ground which was laid and given us by our author : and therefore for m. rutherford to suppresse this ground which we have there so plainly expressed , and to represent and set down our arguing as if there had been no such matter ; this indeed may make way for himself to give answer to us with ease , but whether it be candid and faire thus to deale , i leave it to himself , and the godly wise to consider . in the same pag. . he alledgeth the answer pag. . and sets down these words as ours , viz. the graecians and hebrews made not two churches , but one congregation ; they called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . . answ . here againe our words are set down unperfectly : for the question being , whether those graecians and hebrews , act. . were two severall congregation in one church , or both but one congregation , we for this latter do not onely alledge that one particular which mr. rutherford mentioneth , that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . . but moreover that this multitude must look out seven men duely qualified , whom they might appoint over that businesse , v. . and that the saying pleased this whole multitude , and that they thereupon chose seven who are there named v. . and set them before the apostles , v. . who laid their hands on them : ibid. in all which , say we , there is no hint of two congregations , one of graecians and another of hebrews , but all the businesse of chusing and ordeyning these deacons , seems to be transacted and done in one congregation . for when the text saith that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples unto them , and made a speech to this multitude being assembled , and the whole multitude did hear what the apostles spake , and well liked the same , and thereupon joyntly concurred in one act of chusing seven , and presenting them being chosen before the apostles , it seems to me more rationall to look at these things as done in one congregation , then to imagine there were two , one of graecians another of hebrews : for of two congregations wherein this choise of deacons should be made , the text for ought i perceive doth not afford the least hint . but let us hear mr. rutherford his answer . that the chiefe , saith he , of both graecians and hebrews were contained in one , to give their consent to the admission of the deacons , i conceive . answ . the chief are not so much as once mentioned in the story : but contrarily the text expressely mentioneth the multitude , vers . . and the whole multitude , vers . . now to exclude the multitude , whom the text doth expresly mention , and to attribute the assembling and acting only to the chiefe , of whom the holy ghost speaks not one word , this ( to say no more ) seems a violent forcing of the text . and if somthing had not forced him to it , i think he would not have used it ; for elswhere ( viz. p. , . ) he alledgeth this very scripture , and that three severall times , within the space of a doozen or sixteen lines , to prove that the people , yea the multitude are to have the choise of officers ; and saith he , if it please not the whol multitude , act. . vers . . it is not a choise . and in pag. . he tells us , that the multitude act. . are directed to choose out seven men , as being best acquainted with them ; and that accordingly they did look out seven men and chose them . in which places we see he can attribute this choise to the whole multitude , without any mention of the chief , or so much as the least intimation of the action to be performed by them , the multitude being excluded or absent ; yea , he gives a reason of this choise , which will reach the multitude , and not the chief only , except we shall say , that the chief only were acquainted with these seven : whereas in the place we have in hand , he would exclude the multitude , and ascribe the action to the chiefe onely . but that all the thousands of the church of jerusalem were here as in one ordinary congregation , i judge unpossible . answ . for asmuch as the text tells us that the whole multitude of the disciples were gathered together to act as here is recorded about the election of deacons , therefore we judge that it was not unpossible for them so to do ; for how should we judge the thing unpossible , except we would judge the words of god to be unpossible to be true ? besides , how many soever they were the text tels us act. . . that they continued daily with one accord in the temple : now temples we know there were none but one ; and therefore that they should all assemble in one congregation , we dare not judge a matter unpossible , least in so judging we should seem to question the truth of gods testimony . chap. xxi . whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words , matt. . tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy , for the officers of churches , and churchmembers ? and if yea , whether it would not follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others , and so have no independency of jurisdiction within it self , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall councels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny ? in the same p. . he excepteth against another passage in the answer p. , . where he sets down these as our words , viz. if our argument be good , if thy brother offend and refuse to submit , tell the church , because christs remedy must be as large as the disease ; then if a nationall church offend , you are to complain to an higher church above a nationall church ; and because offences may arise between christians and indians , you may complain of an indian to the church : and then he subjoyneth his answer . answ . yet againe our words are so imperfectly related , as that our scope and intent doth not sufficiently appear to his reader . i must therefore for the readers understanding , relate the passage according to the true and plain meaning thereof . the question between reverend mr. herle and us being this , whether congregations must depend on the government of synods , and this reason being brought for the affirmative , that christs remedy , matth. . tell the church , must be as large as the maladie , offence ; if therefore there arise offences between congregations , there must be a church of synods above congregations , and those synods must judge and redresse those offences : to this we there answer that all offences do not fall within the compasse of this rule and remedy , tell the church ; and so no dependency of congregation upon the jurisdiction of synods can be sufficiently proved by this text . first of all , we instance in the offences of nationall churches , of which we suppose our brother will not say that they fall within the compasse of our saviours rule , tell the church , for then the independency of nationall churches and nationall synods is overthrown , as well as the congregations ; which we suppose he will not grant ; and yet it cannot be avoided if his reason for the dependency of congregations upon synods do stand firm . and next of all we instance in the offences of turks and indians and other heathens , who may offend christians and yet are not to be complained of to the church , the apostle expressely teaching the contrary , col. . this being the scope of that passage in the answer , which here mr. rutherford , excepteth against , let us now hear what it is , which he saith thereto . because , saith he , ordinary communion faileth when you go higher then a nationall church , and christs way supposeth art ordinary communion , as is cleare , if thy brother offend , &c therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . answ . . if this remedy be not needfull in any church above a nationall , then the rule doth not universally hold true , that the remedy , complaint to the church , must be as large as the malady , offence : and so our purpose is gained ; for our purpose in that place is to prove this very thing , by this same instance of the offence of a nationall church ; wherein mr. rutherford we see doth come over to us , and affirms the same that we do . to what end therefore was it to make shew of removing or weakening what he had said , sith when it comes to the issue , he plainly concurs with us ? for by this means our tenent is not confuted , but confirmed with his attest thereto . . though here he saith , this remedy is not needfull in any church above a nationall , yet i am mistaken , if elsewhere he speak not otherwise . for in pag. . prepounding this objection , viz. christ here spe●keth of a present and constant removall of scandalls — a catholike councell of the whole visible church is farre of , and cannot be had , he returneth this for answer thereto : that christ , saith he , speaketh of a present and constant remedy only , and of no remedy against the scandall of whole churches , is denyed . he speaketh of all remedyes to gain any offenders , persons or churches . and in pag. . he saith , christ giveth an instance only in an offending brother ; but the doctrine is for the curing of an offending church also , and for all persons to be gained , thou hast gained thy brother : and saith he , we are to gain churches , as we are not to offend churches : cor. . . again in his second pag. . speaking of five s●rts of synods , of which he cals the fifth the generall and oecuminick councell , he saith , that all these differ not in essence but in degrees , and what word of god , as matth . , . proves the lawfulnes of one , is for the lawfulnesse of all the five sorts of synods . lastly , nothing can be more plain then those words pag. . this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholike councell : ( the same is also to be seen in the peaceable plea p. . ) in all which sayings , he plainly understands the text we have in hand , to speak of a remedy , for all that are to be gained , yea a remedy for the offences of all persons and churches that may give offence ; which churches he saith may do , and expresly affirms that it is to be applyed to generall councels , and that necessarily : and how these things do agree , with the place in hind , where he saith , he denyes the remedie is needfull in any church above a nationall , let the wise and himself judge . for , for my part , except there be some difference between necessary and needfull , the sayings to me do seem inconsistent , one affirming the place is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to generall councells ; and the other denying that the remedy there mentioned is needfull in any church above a nationall . christs remedy , saith he , is a church remedy for offences among the brethren , and members of the visible church . and indians are nomembers of the visible church , and so being without they cannot be judged , cor. . . answ . that indians cannot be judged by the church is very true , but nothing against us : for the very same that here is said by mr. rutherford , was said by us before , in the place which himself doth alledge , where we also brought the very same text of scripture which himself doth bring . now why should these things be brought as a confutation of us , which are nothing but a reception of that which we had delivered afore as our own judgement ? may not his reader be induced hereby to think that we had spoken otherwise ? but to let this passe . if indians cannot be judged by the church , then still our purpose is gained ; for by this it appeareth that an offence may be committed , where christs remedy , tell the church , may not be applyed for the redresse thereof ; and so that universall proposition , christs remedy is as large as the maladie , and where an offence may be committed , there to tell the church , is the remedy for the redresse of the same , which our brethren do lay as the foundation on which to build the jurisdiction of classes and synods , the universality , i say , of this proposition is utterly overthrown by this instance of indians ; and so that scripture , matth. . appears to be too weak a bottome , to bear the building which our brethren would erect upon it . nor is the matter much amended by that which our brother here brings for the helping and clearing of it , that christs remedy is a church remedy for offences among brethren members of the visible church . for let this be granted , as i know none that denies it , yet still the question remains , what is that church to which our saviour here gives power to remove and redresse scandals by excommunicating the offenders ? we conceive this church is only the particular congregation , and its presbytery ; and our brethren think it is also the classes and synods : but this apprehension of theirs is not confirmed by saying our saviours remedy is a church remedy for offences amongst members of the church , inasmuch as the members of a nationall church , as such are members of the visible church in our brethrens judgement , and yet our brother holds here is nor remedy prescribed for a delinquent nationall church . and if he can so understand this church remedy , as that for all this , the nationall church must not partake thereof , so as to be censured and excommunicated by any church above it , why may not others understand it so , as that synods and classes , yea and congregations too be exempted from the jurisdiction of churches ? for my part , i know no reason , but if the congregation be lyable to the censure of classes and synods by this scripture ; because our saviours remedy is a church remedy , by the same reason the classes and synods must be lyable to censure also ; yea , and the nationall church likewise , because this reason is applyable to all these as well as to the congregation . so that this notion of a church remedy doth not help his cause at all , nor hurt ours , any more then it hurts himself . if this reasoning be good , it is a church remedy , therefore the congregationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences , then this reasoning is as good , it is a church remedy , therefore the classes , synods , yea and the nationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences : but this latter at least , for the nationall church , our brother speaks against , and therefore he may not presse nor urge the former . if he or other shall say , that this scripture contains a remedy even for a nationall church , then it will follow that the jurisdiction of a nationall church is not independent , but depends upon the oecumenicall : but this our brother cannot say , unlesse he will gainsay himself , because he hath already said the contrary , and seriously protested it w●●h a verily , that verily be cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls can be in a generall councell : onely a meer doctrinall power in all the power that he can see in such a councell , pag. . so that let him hold to what he hath thus seriously protested , and this rule of christ affords no remedy by way of censure for the scandalls of a nationall church . besides , if the jurisdiction of a generall councell be established by our saviour in this or other scriptures , then it will not only follow that the independent jurisdiction of nationall churches ; yea , and much more of classes and synods is overth●●wn , which i suppose our brethren will not grant , but moreover it will follow that christ hath not sufficiently provided church remedies for redressing scandal●s of church members : the reason of the consequence is , because all other jurisdictions being subordinate one to an●ther , and all of them under the jurisdiction of the generall councell , which alone is supream , there may therefore in all of them be appeals from the inferiour to the higher judicatories , till at the last ●atters and causes be transmitted from them all to the generall councell ; and so by this means matters shall or may never be ended , nor scandalls remedied , till a generall councell shall effect the same ; which generall councels all know are rare , and difficult to be attain● 〈◊〉 and therefore there were small sufficiency in our saviours remedy , if matters may or must depend till generall councels shall be assembled for the hearing and determining thereof , and may not be ended sconer . therefore we cannot see that this rule , nor any other , establisheth the jurisdiction of generall cou●cels ; and then nationall churches can have no benefit of our saviours remedy of , telling the church ; no more then the churches , which are congregationall ; and so whether is the saying universally true , that where there may be offence committed , there our saviours remedy of telling the church , may be applyed for the redresse thereof , nor doth this saying hold , being narrowed according to mr. rutherfords minde , who would have it understood onely of a church remedy , for the offences of church members . for we see there may be offences in churches , according to our brethrens judgement , which cannot be redressed by the help and remedy of this rule . chap. xxii . when the supream magistrate is a professed curing to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious : and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to enjoyn the same unto that greater part . pag . . we say , that if the magistrate be an enemy to religion , may not the church without him conveen and renew a covenant with god ? mr. mather and mr. tompsons answer p. . that if the supream magistrate be an enemy to religion , it is not like , but most or many of the people will be of the same minde : regis ad exemplum totus — and then the 〈◊〉 in the land with not be able to beare the name of the land or nation , but of a small part thereof , not can it be well contained how they should assemble in a nationall synod , for that or any other purpose , when the magistrate is a professed enemy , nor doth god require it at their hands . answ . the question between mr. hefle and us , as it is spoken to , by us , in this passage , is still about the meaning of our saviours words , tell the church : which will plainly appear to him that shall look upon mr. herles treatise and our answer , and compare them together . and though we speak somthing of the churches renewing a a covenant with god , when the magistrate is an enemy to religion , yet the question lyes not meerly so and no further ; but first , this church is called the land or the whole church therein , or the whole number of beleevers . secondly , the thing inquired into concerning this church , is whether they have not power to enjoyn a solemn renewall of the covenant . in answer whereto we first of all say , that in case the magistrate be an enemy to religion , the beleevers in the land are not like to be so many , as that they should bear the name of the land or nation , but of a small part therein . second , that in such case , it is not like they can have such liberty as safely to meet in such great assemblies as nationall synods : and hereupon we conclude that renewing of covenant and enjoyning the same in national synods , being not in the power of som few beleevers in a land , is not then required at their hands . this being said for clearing the scope and summe of that passage in the answer , let us now hear what mr. rutherford saith thereto . this saith he , is a weak answer . answ . sat magistrabiter : would it not do well first to disprove and confute , and then to censure , rather then to censure first ? but if it be so weak , it will be more easie to overthrow it : let us hear therefore why it is so weak . the christians under nero were not like their prince : and it s not like , but sincere christians will be sincere christians and professe truth , even when the magistrate is an enemy . answ . and what of this ? doth this strongly overthrow that saying , which was censured for so weak ? if sincere christians be sincere christians , when the magistrate is an enemy , suppose as bad as nero , doth it follow thereupon , that in such times the sincere christians will be so many in number as to bear the names of the land or nation , where they are , ( for there lyes the question ) and that it is not like to be otherwise ? i suppose no man can justly affirm it . for were they so many in england in the dayes of queen mary ? were they so many in scotland in the dayes of popish princes , afore the reformation ? are they so many in spain , in italy , in turkey at this day ? doth not the scripture say , that when rehoboam , forsook the lord , all israel did the same with him ? chron. . . and that ieroboam did not only sinne , but made israel to sinne ? and that when a ruler hearkneth to lyes , all his servants are wicked , prov. . vers . . which sayings and many more that might be alledged , besides common experience do abundantly witnesse , that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , often times ( if not alwayes ▪ ) sincere beleevers in those dayes are the smaller part of that land . if m. rutherford can prove this apprehension weak , he must then prove the contradictory to be true , viz. that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , it is not like that many of the people will be of the magistrates mind , but contrarily the greatest part of the land will be sincere beleevers , though the magistrate be an enemy . and when he hath confirmed this position which strong and convincing proofes ; he may then more freely take his liberty to condemne the other for weak : in the mean time , i think it were weaknesse in us to depart from this apprehension without some better grounds then yet are given to discover the weaknesse of it . . saith he , if your meaning be , it cannot be conceived how they should assemble in a nationall assembly , when the magistrate is an enemy , because it is not safe for feare of persecution , then you say nothing to the argument , because the argument is drawn from a duty . answ . are those things duties , which are in nature impossible ? if not , how is it a duty of a few beleevers in a land ( for when the magistrate is a professed enemy , i doe still conceive the beleevers in that land to be but few , a small part of the land ) how is it a duty , i say , for these few beleevers , in a land to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyn a nationall covenant , to be entered into , not onely by themselves , which are but a few in comparison , but also by the rest of the land which are farre the greater number ? if this be a duty , it is more then i yet understand ? suppose it be their duty to enter into covenant with god for their own part ; suppose also it were the duty of others to doe the like , yet when the greater part will not so doe , but are enemies to the truth of god like their magistrates , is it neverthelesse a duty of this smaller number to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyne a solemn covenant to be taken by the land ? i mean not onely by themselves ; but also by others , who are farre more in number then they ? do they fall short of their duty , if they do not thus assemble , and impose the covenant ? in the dayes of ieroboam , when the generality of the land walked after his wicked commandement , hos . . . who made israel to sin , yet then there were some in israel who retained their integrity , and set their hearts to seek the lord , who also for that end came to ierusalem , to sacrifice to the lord god of their fathers , chron. . v. . but i doe not remember that these few that were sincere in worship , did ever come together in a nationall assembly in israel , to renew the covenant with god , and to enjoyn the same to that great multitude of the backslyding israelites , nor that such a duty was required of them , nor that they are blamed by 〈◊〉 lord , nor any of his prophets for the neglect thereof . and the case we have in stand is the same . if you mean that because the princes power is against the synodicall meeting , this is nothing against the power of the synods that christ hath given to his church . answ . we mean as we have said , that those few beleevers in a land , being overpowered with the prince and people that are enemies , therefore this assembling of those few in a nationall synod , and there enjoyning a nationall covenant is now not in their power , and so not required at their hands . if your meaning be that , it is not lawfull to them to conveen in a nationall synod to renew a covenant with god , against the supreame magistrates will ; i hope you minde no such thing . answ . if it be our meaning , how can it be hoped that we do not mind it ? can our ●●●●ing be one thing , and our mind another ? but for his satisfaction and resolution , 〈◊〉 plain answer is this , that we neither had mind nor meaning to medle at all with that question ; whether churches may assemble in nationall synods against the supreame magistrates will. for we did not think that mr. herles treatise did lead us thereunto : 〈…〉 such a matter . nor am i willing at this time to turn aside to the same , but to keep close to my scope and ayme , which is to consider of mr. rutherford his exceptions against the answer . and therefore for his discourse , which here he fals upon , maintaining at large against malignants , and namely against tho : fuller , that the reformation begun in scotland and prosecuted in england , against the kings will is lawful● and warrantable by the word● this discourse , i say , being altogether concerning others , and not us ; i will therefore passe it over , and come to that wherein our selves are concerned . chap. xxiii . whether the word church be not given to a single congregation , and whether a congregation be a company or church , meeting only for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , . of word and sacraments . . of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . pag . . the name church , cor. . , , . , . is plainly given to that company that did assemble and come together for performance of spirituall duties , and for the exercise of spirituall gifts , as act. . . and . . and . . . . and cor. . , , , , john . which places do abundantly shew , that a company gathered together in one place , is called by the name of a church , as centhera , rom. . . which could not contain many congregations , being but the part of corinth . and for this passage he alledgeth the answer . pag. . answ . mr. herle having said , that the scripture never useth the word church for a single congregation , unlesse happily , cor. . and that many congregations in one province or city are frequently called by the name of a church , we in answer to the former of these doe give many instances , p. , . where a single c●●●regation is called by the name of a church , not onely in cor. . which mr. herle acknowledgeth ( though with a perhaps ) but also in sundry other scriptures , which here mr. rutherford quoteth . now let us heare his answer to this passage . wee seek no more , saith he . answ . are we then agreed , that in scripture language the word church is sundry times given to a single congregation ? if so , then for this point the answer is not confuted but confirmed . if it be called a church which conveeneth for performance of spirituall duties , as some of your places doe well prove , ergo , no assembly should have the name of church , but such as assemble for word and sacraments , this now you cann●t affirm and it followeth not . answ . if this follow not , what needs it ? we never affirmed it , and our purpose that the word church is given in scripture to a single congregation , is sufficiently gained without it . the church spoken of matth. . is not assembled to word and sacraments , but to binde and loose : the meeting cor. . is not for word and sacraments , but to deliver to satan ; the word church act. . . is not an assembly for word and sacraments , but to hear how god hath opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles . — if to be received of the church , act. . . be matter of word and sacraments , let all judge : if to send a decree of a synod , act. . . be the act of a church assembled for word and sacraments , let the world judge . answ . reverend sir , keep to the point , we never said that discipline , and all other acts , whether performed by a church , are word and sacraments : and therefore there was no need to prove they are not , and then to triumph as in a great victory : the thing in question is this , whether the name or word church , be given in scripture to a single congregation : and if this be proved ( as the instances given , i hope , do prove it sufficienly ) then it matters not what that particular spirituall church action is , for which they do meet : for whether it be that they meet for word and sacraments alone ; or whether it be for the word and prayer alone , and not at that time for sacraments at all , or whether it be for discipline , or for any other church duty , yet still if they come together into one place , be it for all or for any of these ends , they are then a congregation , ( for what is a congregation but a company so assembled in one place ) and so our tenet stands good , and our purpose is gained : for if they that come together into one place for church actions and ends , be called in scripture by the name of a church , then the word church is given to a company that so came together ; and such a company being a congregation , it follows that the word church is used for a congregation . what this congregation doth when they are come together , is not the question : but if a congregation coming together for church duties be in scripture called a church , we have our intent . if the word church , be a meeting of persons assembled to one place for spirituall duties , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , sometimes for acts of jurisdiction onely , then is the word church by our brethrens argument taken both for the congregation , and for the elders of one , or of divers churches , and so we have our intent . answ . let the antecedent be granted , yet the consequence is denied : for the word church may be a meeting assembled , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , and sometimes for acts of jurisdiction only , and i adde , sometimes for the word and prayer only , without exercise of jurisdiction or sacrament , and somtimes for some other act or acts , then any of these that are named , and yet for all this , it may not be taken for the elders alone of one church , and much lesse for the elders of divers churches ; the reason is , because all these acts may be performed by the congregation assembling sometimes for one of them , and sometimes for another . and therefore your intent is not yet attained ; who would have the word church to be taken somtimes for the congregation , and sometimes for the presbyters or elders alone ? we desire our brethren to prove ( which they must if they oppose our principles ) that the word church is never taken for the eldership alore , in all the word of god. answ . must we prove a negative : and is that saying , affirmanti incumbit ●●us probandi , now become unreasonable , unnecessary , or of no force ? for my part i am still of the mind , that he that affirms , must in equity and reason prove what he affirms . besides for our selves we have this to say further , that if we prove what we undertook , we have done as much as can in reason be required of us , though we do not prove this that mr. rutherford would impose upon us : and what was that which we undertook to prove ? nothing in this place , but onely this , that the word church is taken for a congregation , in other scriptures besides , cor. . and this we have performed and proved already . mr. rutherford himself allowing some of our proofs for good : and therefore having performed this point , it is more then needs to be required of us , to prove another also , which we never undertook to prove , as being quite besides our question , which we were and still are desirous to keep close unto , and not to wonder or be diverted from it by any means . whereas our brethren say , a company gathered into one place ( which is nothing else but a congregation ) are called by the name of a church , i answer such a company is only ( i suppose this is misprinted , for is not onely ) called by the name of a church , for a company meeting for discipline only , is a church also . answ . if a company gathered into one place , which is a congregation , be called by the name of a church , this is as much as we desire : for our tenent is herein expresly granted to be true : if a company meeting for discipline onely be a church also , yet as long as the former is not denyed , the adding of this other doth no hurt to us at all . it is false that a company gathered into one place , are nothing else but a congregation . answ . bona verba quaso : we had thought that as a company assembled , is an assembly , a company met , is a meeting , a company convocated , a convocation ; so a company gathered together or congregated , had been a congregation : but this is peremptorily now condemned as false : yet let us hear why . as you take the word congregation : for so your congregation is an assembly of men and women meeting for word and sacraments , with the elders of the church . answ . and what if they meet for prayer also , what if for the word and prayer without sacraments , for this or that time ? what if they meet for the admission of members also , or for censuring delinquents ? can mr. rutherford prove that either of us , i mean either mr. tompson or my self , or indeed any man else of that judgement , which he opposeth , have denyed an assembly meeting for such ends , as these to be a congregation ? i suppose he cannot : and therefore it was not well done to impute unto us such a sence of the word congregation , as we never spake nor thought of , and then to say , it is false that a company gathered into one place is a congregation , as that word is taken by us . i appeale to the judgement of our reverend brethren , if the church , matth. . assembled to to bind and loose , if the church assembled , corin. . to deliver to satan , ( and sundry others are there named to the like purpose ) be a congregationall church assembled for word and sacraments . answ . if the word and sacraments be not mentioned in the places alledged , but other actions and duties , must it needs follow that the churches spoken of in these places did assemble for word and sacraments ? may not one and the same church assemble for diverse ends and actions ? yea , possibly for diverse upon one day ? at the least wise it cannot be denyed , but at severall times of assembling a church may attend to diverse duties and actions , and yet still be one and the same congregation or church , at one time which they were at another . or otherwise we must say ( which were a very unwise saying ) that a church meeting for diverse actions to be performed upon one day , as the word , prayer , psalms , sacraments , &c. is not the same church is one of these actions , that it was in another , but is one church when they are at prayer , another when they are singing psalms , another when they are in exercise of the word or sacraments , &c. or if they meet one day , for word and sacraments , and another day for word and prayer without sacraments , that n●w they are diverse churches , and not the same upon one of these dayes , that they were upon another , the nature and kind of their church being altered according to the severall duties wherein they are exercised . this arguing i suppose mr. rutherford , would not own for good , and yet for ought i see , it is no worse , but the very same with that which himself doth here use , who because the church mentioned matth. . corinth . . and other places by him named , is said to meet for discipline or other duties , would thereupon have it thought , that the church mentioned in those places was not a church that did ever meet for word and sacraments , but was some other church of another kinde : which arguing may be good , if these which i have here above expressed be good , but otherwise i conceive it cannot stand . chap. xxiv . whether those children of israel , numb . . . who laid hands on the levites , were elders by office , and as so considered , did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members , though not elders by office , may impose hands on church officers . the children of israel which were not the church officers laid hands on the levites , numb . . . therefore when a church hath no elders , the people may conferre ordination , and it is not to be tyed to the presbyters only : and for this be alledgeth the answer . pag. . and then he addeth , that other of our brethren say , ordination is but accidentall to a ministers calling , and may be wanting if the people shall chuse , in defect of elders , pag. . answ . this latter clause should not have been added , as deserving a confutation , except our brother would confute himself : for as we heard afore , himself doth plainly affirm pag. , . that both are true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors ; and that election by the people only may stand for ordination , where there be no pastors at all : which if it be so ; why should the same thing in effect when it is holden by others , be here inserted in an objection as worthy to be spoken against , when himself doth cast the very same ? it is marvell that our reverend brother should thus go on in representing our words and mind amisse : for as here he sets down the objection under our name , some of our words are changed and altered , others being substituted in their place , some are wholly suppressed as if there had been none such , and others are added as 〈◊〉 which never came from us : of the first sort , are those of the peoples conferring ordination ; wheras our words are not so , but that the people may impose or lay on hands . now between these two himself pag. . doth make a great difference , even as much as between the authoritative calling of a minister , and a rite annexed to that calling : and further saith , that though he think imposition of hand● not so essentiall perhaps , at that a minister can be no minister without it , yet of ordination he thinks otherwise , and if he make so great a difference between imposition of hand● and ordination , why should our words be forsaken which import the lesser matter in his judgement , and those other which he accounts do import much more , be substituted in the room ? was this to burden our opinion or apprehension with a greater odium then our words in his own judgement will beare ? or was it to make his confutation of us more easie , then it would have been , if our own words had been retained and kept ? what ever was the cause hereof , we cannot but think it had been better if it had been otherwise . for omitting and suppressing some words of ours ( which was the second particular ) i alledge those of the time and places where elders cannot co●veniently be borrowed from any other church : the whole passage is this : viz. by which , scripture , ( to wit num. . . ) thus much is manifest , that when a ch●rch hath no elders , but the first elders themselves are to be ordained , and this at such times and in such places , where elders cannot conveniently be borrowed from any other churches , in such case imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by some principall men of the congregation , although they be not elders by office : in which place , these words , at such times ●nd in such places , &c. though they contain a great part of the case , wherein we think imposition of hands may be performed by non-elders , yet they are wholy concealed by mr. rutherford , as if there had been none such ; for what purpose , himselfe best knows . but this is apparent , that by his concealment or omission , the way is made more easie and the ground more rati●n●ll for that passage of his in the following page , where he saith , what if there be no elders in a single congregation ? it will not follow therefore the people are to lay on hands , except saith he , there were no elders in the land , or nationall church to lay on hands . now had our words been delivered and set down by him as they came from us , this speech and passage of his would have been uselesse , and apparently brought in without cause : for to what purpose should he bring in this exception , saying , except there be no elders in the land &c. when our selves had prevented him in this , by putting such an exception expresly into the prohibition , which we deduce and gather from that scripture of numb . . . sure this had not needed , but might have been spared , if our words had been fully related : but by this omission and concealement , his own speech hath more appearance of ground and reason in it , then otherwise it would have had , and our apprehension doth not appear to his reader as indeed it is , nor as himself received it from us in that our answer . which we have reason to take somwhat unkindly from him , and the rather because it is not only once , but twise at the least , that we have thus expressed our selves in that answer : once in the words which i have here above repeated and transcribed , and again in pag. . where speaking again of this same scripture , numb . . v. . we say thus , that we have shewed from that scripture , that if there be no elders as at the first , nor any that can conveniently be gotten from other churches , then imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by others : neverthelesse though we have thus expressed our selves , once and a second time , yet m. rutherford doth not once give notice hereof unto his reader , for ought that i can find ; but still passing by these words of borrowing elders from other churches , doth take advantage of the want thereof , which indeed are not wanting in our churches , which he deals against , but twise at the least are plainly expressed therein , and would not have been wanting in this passage , which here he sets down as ours , if himself had not concealed and suppressed the same . now to leave out those words of ours , which we have plainly expressed two severall times at the least , and then to make advantage for himselfe against us for want thereof , whether this be not such measure as we have cause to take unkindly , let himself and others consider . the third particular of adding words which never came from us , i will briefly passe over , because it is of lesse moment , as not so much misrepresenting our meaning ; yet i conceive those words , it ( by ordination ) is not to be tyed to the presbytery alone , which here are presented to the reader as ours , are not at all to be found in our writing : but i will not insist on this , but come to consider of his answer . there is not , saith he , a place in all the word of god , where people conser●e ordination to the pastors of the new testament , therefore our brethren flee to the old testament to prove it from the levites , who received imposition of bands from the children of israel . answ . we have given a reason , why no such scripture can be expected in the new testament , viz. because in those times elders were not wanting ; for there were the apostles and apostolike men , who were elders in all churches : and say we , we do willingly grant , that where elders are not wanting , imposition of hands is to be performed by the elders : ans . p. . now for our brethren to require of us an example of imposition of hands performed without elders in the apostles times , in which times there were elders to be had , this we think to be unreasonable , first it is our opinion , that when elders are to be had , imposition of hands is not to be performed without those elders , but by them . moreover , if it be such a disparagement to our cause , that the scripture of the new testament affords no example of imposition of hands by the people , how will mr. rutherford free his own way from another objection , which we think as sore and weighty against the same , as this which they think of so much weight against us ? the objection i mean is this , that there is not any place in all the scripture of the new testament , where ordinary pastors or elders imposed hands on ordinary pastors or elders ; but all the examples in scripture concerning this matter are such , where either the persons imposing , or the persons on whom hands were imposed , or both , were officers of extraordinary note and degree , such as now are not extant in the church , but are ceased long again : not that i deny , but an argument may be taken from those examples for imposition of hands in these dayes : but the thing i stand upon is this , that no example can be given from scripture directly parallel , to the way which our brethren in these dayes do practise and allow , but some dissonancy will be found therein : from their way as well ( and perhaps as much ) as from the way of imposition of hands performed by the people in some cases : let them tell us of act. . v. . and . . and . tim. . . and we answer the persons imposing hands in those places were apostles and evangelists , such as our brethren are not , nor do so account themselves . let them name act. . . and tim. . . and we answer , the persons on whom hands were there laid were the like , even apostles and evangelists , whatever the imposers were , and therefore neither will these places perfectly suit the case ▪ so that if we could give no example in the new testament of imposition of hands performed in some cases by the people , we think mr. rutherford and out brethren of his way might be favourable to us for their own sake . yet for the justification of our way , and for further answer to this passage of mr. rutherford , we have this to say further , that an example in the old testament of a practise not abolished in the new as ceremoniall , typicall , or of some peculiar reason specially concerning those times and peoples , but of morall equity and reason ; such an example we think a sufficient warrant unto us , for the like practise upon the like occasion in these dayes : this i thinke mr rutherford must acknowledge , for else he shall loose many arguments which he frequently useth in this treatise , from the example of asa , hezekiah , josiah , and others in the old testament , for the proving of things to be practised in the new : and else himself and we all shall loose the argument for pedobaptisme which is taken from circumcision . yea , and which is more , if it were not thus , the apostles arguing would not be strong , who do frequently argue from the examples of the old testament to confirm and prove truth and vertue , and to reprove and to condemn the contra●y in the new : to instance in no more but cor. . . . heb. . . which examples , together with that saying , rom. . . whatsoever was written in former time , was written for our learning ; and many more that might be alledged , do abundantly and plainly prove the point in hand : and therefore mr. rutherford should bear with us , if we somtimes argue from examples of the old testament . as for that which followeth , where he saith , but our brethren hold that the calling of the levites and of the pastors of the new testament are different , as the officers and churches of the jewish and christian churches are different ; the answer is , that i do not remember that we have spoken one word of this matter , either one way or other ; nor doth he mention any place where we have spoken ought of these things . and for the thing it selfe , though many differences may be assigned between the levites and pastors of the new testament , and between the jewish and christian churches , yet i know no such difference between them , but that in things which are of generall and common nature concerning them both , in those we may lawfully argue from them and their times , unto our selves and our times . if mr. rutherford know we have given any such difference as will not suffer us thus to argue , when he shall expresse the same , we may consider further thereof . our brethren grant pag. . that it wanteth all example in the new testament that the people lay on hands . answ . and we have also in the same pag. . rendred the reason hereof , viz. because elders then were not wanting : why then did not our brothers ingenuity so farre prevaile with him as to mention this , when he mentioned the other ? however yet this he may be pleased to observe , that as we grant the thing he speaks of , so themselves , i think must grant also , that it wanteth all example in the new testament , where ordinary elders do impose hands on ordinary elders : for my part i remember none , nor do i remember that themselves have yet produced any . these who laid on hands on the levites numb . . were elders , and our brethren say it is like they were ; but . they did not as elders : . but as representing the people ; not as elders civill , for that belonged to aaron and his sonnes , levit. . else it will follow that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may doe it : nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which laid on hands did , they did as from the congregation : for . these levites were taken in stead of the first born of israel , and not instead of the first born of the elders only , numb . . , . they were presented to the lord as an offering of the children of israel , not of the elders onely . . when the multitude brought an oblation , the elders put their hands on the heads of the sacrifice , levit. . . instead of all the multitude . answ . in relating this passage , our meaning is exceedingly mistaken , and both our meaning and our words represented farre amisse unto the reader : the particulars which in this respect may be excepted against , are such as these . . that reporting us to say , it is like they who laid on hands were elders , he there breaks off the speech ; and so suppresseth that which follows ; wherein we first of all do give an explication in what respect they might be said to be elders , viz. as being the chiefe and principall members of the congregation ; and next of all we do adde , that neverthelesse therein example doth prove the point , if two things be considered which there we do expresse . but both these particulars , i mean , both the explication and the addition or exception , are wholly suppressed by mr. rutherford , and so the concession ; it is like they were elders , is left standing alone by it selfe . . he reports us to say , they did it not as elders civill : for that belonged to aaron and his sons ; wherein he fathers on us a palpable errour , of accounting aaron , and his sonnes to be elders civill , or magistrates , which never came into our thoughts : nay it was so farre from us that we plainly said the contrary , in that very place , to wit , that they were elders ecclesiasticall . our words are these , if they , ( that is , the children of israel ) did it as elders , then either as elders and governours ecclesiasticall , or as civill governours : but not the first , for that charge belonged to aaron and his sonnes : levit. . and these levites now ordained . in which words we plainly ascribe to aaron and his sonnes the charge of elders and governours ecclesiasticall , but not of civill governours , as mr. rutherford , is pleased to report . . in these words , else it will follow , that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may do it ; our words are so miserably mangled , that no tolerable sence can appeare : for here is expressed an inference or consequence , that must follow , and yet no ground or antecedent at all from which it should follow , which is to represent us to the world as men that were loesi cerebro . for men that were in their right wits , i conceive , would scarcely ever argue in this fashion , as here we are reported to do : but our words are these , if the second be said , viz. that the children of israel did lay on hands as civill governours , then it will follow that civill magistrates , though no church-officers may impose hands in ordination of church-officers , and so the point is gained : ( viz. that church-officers may be ordained by those that are no church-officers ) which we do further manifest in the following words in this manner : if the magistrate may doe it , then it will follow that a church that hath no magistrate may perform this action by other the fittest instrument● she hath ; for which we there give this ground , for that this is not a work properly tyed to the magistrates office , because then the church in the apostles times wanting magistrates , could not have had officers ; the contrary whereof we say is manifest in the scriptures , act. . . tit. . . this is our manner of arguing in the place alledged , which is farre different from that which mr. rutherford reporteth as ours . . whereas he reports us to say , nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which lay on hands did , they did as from the congregation ; in this he also reports us to speak quite besides our plain meaning and expresse words . for whereas , he so sets down this sentence , as that the latter clause or branch therein is made the reason of the former ; the truth is this , that these clauses in the answer , have no dependance the one upon the other at all ; but the former hath another reason given for it , which here is not mentioned , and the latter which is here mentioned as the reason of the former is not so mentioned by us , but for another end and purpose . touching the former of these two , when we said that the children of israel , did not impose hands on the levites as ecclesiasticall elders , the reason we give for this saying is this , because that charge was onely belonging to aaron and his sonnes , and those levites now ordained : which reason mr. rutherford never mentions , but mentions another speech , as our reason , which was delivered by us for another purpose . the like measure doth he afford to us in the second branch of the sentence by him expressed : for whereas we give two reasons of the main thing in question , that this example of the children of israel , imposing hands on the levites doth prove that in some cases , non-officers may impose hands upon church officers , the one because what these children of israel did , they did it not as elders ; the other that what they did , they did it not for themselves alone , but for all the congregation , mr. rutherford applies not these two reasons to the thing in question as they were applyed by us , but instead thereof makes one of them to be a reason of the other , which was no part of our meaning , nor could justly be gathered from our words . this being said for clearing this passage of ours from his manifold mistakes , let us now heare his answer . pag. ● . these who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first borne , who by office were elders , and in whose stead the levites were assumed , numb . . , . answ . if the elders were but a part of the first born , then how could all the first born be elders by office ? or if all the first born were by office elders , then how could the elders be but a part of the first born ? these things seem not to be here . but be it so , that the elders were a part of the first born as here is affirmed , how doth this prove that they who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders ? is there any necessary or clear consequence in such a proposition ? for my part , i see it not : but on the contrary , i suppose it is certaine , that the elders might be part or all of the first born , and yet they who did the work of imposing hands might neither impose as elders , nor of necessity be elders . though in the sense expressed in the answer , i will not deny but there might be elders , that is chiefe and principall members of the congregation . but if this were granted in the sense expressed , must it needs follow that they imposed hands as elders , and as elders by office too ? can a man sustain no relation , but all his actions must be actions of that relation ? cannot a man be an husband , or a parent , &c. but his actions of plowing sowing , &c. must needs be performed by him , as he is a husband , or parent ? cannot a minister pray in his family , instruct his children , or receive the bread and wine in the lords supper in the congregation , but all these things must be performed by him as a minister ? i suppose that none will say that this doth follow : and if not , then suppose that these who imposed hands were elders , how doth it follow , that when they imposed hands , they did impose as elders ? else the church of israel being a constituted church before this time wanted officers , which is against all truth . answ . else , else what ? let the antecedent or ground of this inference be taken from the words preceding , or from any of them ( and whence else to take it i cannot tell ) and no necessity of consequence i think will appear . the words preceding are no more but these , these who laid on hands , did it as a worke peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first born , who by office were elders , and in whose steed the levites were assumed , and then comes in this inference , else the church of israel wanted officers . now how this must needs follow upon any or all of those preceding , i see not . not that i deny the truth of all those preceding words , for of some of them i think otherwise , but supposing that were all true , which is more then doth yet appeare , yet here is that which i am doubtfull in , whether this inference must needs follow upon the same ? for ought i see , the church of israel might have officers , and yet the particulars here mentioned not be all true , but some of them false notwithstanding . at least wise if they were true , yet the reason here used would not inferre so much . for , to consider a little of the particulars : the church of israel had officers , ergo , the elders were a part of the first born ( which is one of the particulars ) the church of israel had officers ; ergo the first born were elders by office ; ( which is another ) the church of israel had officers : ergo , the levites were assumed instead of the first born ( which is another of them ) is there any necessity of consequence in any of these ? for my part i see it not : but suppose they were in themselves true , yet , the medium here used doth not proove them so to be . and for that which is the first , and as i conceive the cheif , to wit , that these who imposed hands did it as a work peculiar to elders , must this needs be granted , if it be granted , that the church of israel was not without officers ? i see no necessity of granting this neither , but the contrary to me seems possible enough , that thee might be officers afore this time in that church ; and yet what was now done by them who imposed hands , not be done by them , as elders by office , but as prime and principall members of the congregation . for the clearing whereof a little further , we may observe that they who imposed hands on the levites are not here called elders , nor rulers , nor officers , nor first born , nor any such like , but the term whereby they are expressed is this , the children of israel ; the children of israel , saith the lord , shall put their hands upon the levites , numb . . . now this term being used in the . verse imediately preceding , and in the . vers . imediately following , yet in neither of both can it be meant of elders and officers alone , but in both verses is undoubtedly meant of all the body of the congregation : and therefore if the context and circumstances of the place be regarded , these children of israel , who imposed hands on the levites , v. . cannot in that act be considered under the not●on of officers . sure it is when the verse before tells us that the whole assembly of the children of israel must be gathered together , and the verse following tells us that aaron must offer the levites for an offering of the children of israel ; in neither of these can the children of israel be understand of the officers alone , but the whole congregation is meant hereby in both verses : reason therefore requires that this tenth verse standing in the midst between the other two , the word children of israel , being used therein should be taken in the same sense in this verse , in which it is taken in the verse before , and in the verse that comes after . nay and further , he that shall peruse this chapter numb . . may easily finde that this word , the children of israel is used therein no lesse then fifteen or sixteen severall times ; and sometimes foure or five times in one verse ; and yet of all these , i think here is not so much as one , where it can be understood of the elders and officers as such , but is used to signifie all the congregation . and therefore to give such a singular interpretation of this word , in v. . so far different from the sense of the same word , in all the rest of the verses both before and after , and those being not only one or two , but so very many ; this kind of practise and interpretation had need to be builded upon very plain and pregnant , very cleare and cogent reason and demonstration , or else our brethren may excuse us if we be not over hasty and forward to receive it . again , the ninth and eleventh verses tell us plainly , that these levites were to be offered to the lord for an offering , not of the elders alone , but of the children of israel , even of all the assembly of the children of israel , and other scriptures tell us as plainly that all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was , levit. . , , and . , , . whereby it seems evident , that these children of israel , who imposed hands on these levites , at this time when they were offered for an offering , were the whole congregation or some in your name and stead , sith these levites were an offering of the whole congregation . wee grant the magistrates laid not on hands , but they who laid on hands , did it as ecclesiasticall elders . reconcile this with that pag. l. . where t is said , the princes and heads of tribes laid hands on them : now what were these princes and heads of tribes , but magistrates ? and if they were princes and magistrates how could they be considered in this act as ecclesiasticall elders ? the reasons against this conclude not . the first reason concludeth not . ans . here again our meaning is presented amisse to the reader ; for those three reasons of ours were given by us to prove another point , and not this to which mr. rutherford , applyes therein , as is plainly to be seen in answer , pag. , . where the reader may perceive that those reasons were brought to shew , that when the children of israel imposed hands , if these children of israel were not all the congregation , yet what they performed herein was for the congregation , and not for themselves onely : and if those reasons prove this , as i hope they doe ; it is no great disparagement to them not us , if they prove not another point for which they were never intended . but let us hear the answer . the first reason concludeth not , because those who laid on hands were the first born , who by office were church-men . answ . how shall we be sure that those who laid on hands were the first born ? though i deny it not , yet a bare affirmation proves not . again , suppose what here is affirmed were also sufficiently confirmed , how is the point in question proved hereby ? for , say they were the first born , they might notwithstanding do what they did for all the people , and not for themselves above . the other two reasons proves nothing . answ . let them be applyed to the thing , whereto they were intended and applyed by us , and then let the reader judge . the position was , that those who imposed hands on the levites , did it for the congregation or in their stead . the first of the two reasons is , that the levites were the congregations offerings , and all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was : the other is this , that it was an usuall thing when the congregation were to present an offering , that the elders should impose hands on the congregations offering , in the congregations stead , levit. . vers . , . now let the prophets judge , whether these reasons prove what they were brought to prove , to wit , that they who imposed hands on the levites did it for , or in stead of the congregation : or whether it be as our reverend brother affirms , that these two reasons proves nothing : yet let us hear why they prove nothing . because these who laid on hands , did lay on hands as representing the whole congregation . alas it doth no wayes conclude that they laid not on hands , as it is a worke peculiar to them 〈◊〉 elders . ans . if it doe not , yet if our reasons do conclude that they did it instead of the congregation , we have our intent : but to follow mr. rutherford a little in digressing from the point ; why , do not our reasons conclude this other ? the high-priest offered sacrifice , first for his own sins , and then for the peoples ; heb. . v. . and so did represent the people ; but i hope it followeth not that therefore the priest did not sacrifice as a priest , and by virtue of a peculiar office , but only as a principall member of the congregation . answ . mr. rutherford himself gives us a distinction which may be sufficient for answer to this passage . a representer , saith he , standeth for another either objectively or subjectively . the former of these is he that doth a busines for another , or in rem ejus , for his behalf and good , as the eye seeth and the eare heareth for the whole body ; and thus objectively the presbytery doth represent the people , that is , for your good and salvation of the people . the other representing another subjectively is when the representer hath its power from that which it representeth , as he who carrieth the room and person of a king as an ambassadour : but thus , saith he , the presbytery or eldership doth not represent the people . due right of presbyt . p. , . now as the presbytery represents the people , so may it be said of the priest , viz. that he represented the people only objectively , for their good , but not subjectively in their room and stead , and therefore the cases are not alike ; for we think that what was done by those who imposed hands , numb . . was not only done for the good of the children of israel , but also in their room and stead , which he will not say of the priest sacrificing for the people , having already said the contrary of the presbytery . pag. . you will say , in a church , in an iland , one may be a pastor without any ordination if the people elect him , and there be no elders to ordain ; i answer it is true . answ . if this be true , then what becomnes of that which was said in the precedent page , that though imposition of hands be not so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , yet for ordination it is otherwise , this being the authoritative calling of a minister , and the other but a rite annexed to the calling . in which place he counts ordination so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , and yet in the very next page confesseth , as we see , that in some case one may be a pastor without ordination : whereupon it must needs follow either that one may be a pastor without any authoritative calling or else that ordination is in effect , but the same with imposition of hands , and so there is no such difference between them as is pretended . but so many pastors send a pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never chuse him . answ . take your own words for answer pag. . we never read that in the apostles church a man was obtruded upon the people against their will and therefore election by the people in the apostolike church as act. . . act. . , , . rev. . , . act. . v. . must be our rule . any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude as act. . . it is not a choise . and in pag. . he tells us that all incorporations have power by the law of nature to chuse their own rulers and officers , and that christ hath provided the same in an eminant manner for his church . and therefore for this passage that many pastor may send a pastor to be pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never choose him , we desire that he would take his own money for payment . chap. xxv . whether a ministers calling consist in election or in imposition of hands , and whether of those is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether , tim. . . act. . , , . act. . , , . do prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbytery , and that such imposition of hands is not a consumatory rite , or benedictory signe . also whether rom. . . do prove that a man cannot be a minister except some presbytery ordain him afore the people chuse him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minster to themselves : and whether the people of god may not aswell discern a mans fitnes to be ordained as his fitnes to be elected . pag . . if the people may elect officers , then in some cases they may ordaine them also , because ordination is lesse then election , and dependeth upon it as a necessary antecedent , and it is nothing but a consummation of election , or the admission of a person into the possession of that office , whereto he had right before by election . if then a single congregation may elect , which is the greater , they may ordain , which is the lesse . and for this he alledgeth the answer pag. , . and then gives answer thereto in these words , ordination is the more and election the lesser ; for ordination is an act authoritative of the presbytery , . tim. . . answ . take ordination as we take it for imposition of hands on a church officer , and then we think it is lesse then election , as being but a rite or ceremony used at a ministers entrance into his office , but not at all of the essence thereof . nor are we alone , or the first that have so thought : for to omit others , he that wrote the book , called the unbishoping of timothy and tytus affirmeth pag. . that it is no essentiall , but a ceremoniall part of ordination , which may be sufficiently made without it , and saith that angelus de clavasio , peter martyr and others both papists and protestants affirm the same . and in pag. . he saith it is an act of service or ministery , not of authority , and no more then an externall complement or ceremony , alledging dr. ames & others for the same tenent . but now election is more then a ceremony that may be omitted , mr. rutherford himself being judge : for in his pag. . he tells us , that in the apostolike churches , a minister was never obtruded upon the people against their will , but that they still had the election of their ministers , and this he saith must be our rule , so that any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude it is not a choise . and in p. . he tells us out of chrysostome that all election of pastors is null without the consent of the people . whereby it seems that election is something essentiall ; and so consequently more then imposition of hands , which is but a rite or ceremony , which may be absent , and yet a man have all the essentialls of a minister notwithstanding . as for tim. . . the imposition of hands of the presbytery there spoken of , i conceive , could not be any act of superior authority but onely an approbatory signe or rite which might be used by inferiours towards your superiours . for timothy being an evangelist , how could any ordinary presbytery have authority over him , or give office or authority to him ? besides it is not said that timothy received his gift by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery , but by the prophesie , and by the laying on of pauls hands , and with the laying on the hands of the presbytery . now between those two phrases , by the laying on of hands , and with the same , there is great difference , the one importing some cause or authority or power , the other importing no more but an approbatory rite , or a signe used in a solemne commending of one to god by prayers : altare damascen . pag. . of which more is to be seen in the plea for the churches in new england part of the second chap. . quest . , . for ought i see the authors might argue thus , the people may ordaine : ergo , they may preach and baptise , for all the three are presbyteriall acts given to men in office. answ . we read in mornay de ecclesia chap. ● . that of old time it was an argument rise in the church , he may baptise , he may administer the lords supper ; ergo , he may lay on hands ; but such arguing as mr rutherford useth , they may lay on hands , ergo , they may baptise ; this we remember not that we have read in any authors , except in him : nor doe we think the consequence the same , inasmuch as in the one the argument proceeds from the greater to the lesse , and in the other from the lesse to the greater , and yet affirmatively in both . thus the argument is understood by the forenamed author of the unbishoping of timothy and tytus , who in pag. . speaking of these words of mornay layes down the argument thus , he can baptise , he can consecrate and administer the lords supper which are the greater and more honorable actions , ergo , he may lay on hands which is the lesse : and this kind of arguing for my part , i think to be good ▪ but for that of mr. rutherfords , i see no more consequence therein , then if one should say , he that may doe the lesser , may doe the greater also ▪ in which i see , no strength of consequence at all . pag. , . whereas some say act. . , , . election of seven men to be deacons goeth before ordination or imposition of hands , v. . answ . election of the people goeth before ordination in the relation of luke , true ; ergo , election is prior by order of nature , it followeth not . answ . the place cannot be so satisfied ; for the text is very plain , that these seven were elected by the multitude afore the apostles laid their hands on them ; yea , and not onely afore in respect of priority of nature , but also in respect of time ; for otherwise , how could the apostles say as they doe unto the multitude ; brethren look out seven men among you whom we may appoint over this busines ? can any man imagine they would thus have spoken , if themselves had already found out the men , and likewise had imposed hands upon them ? for my part , i see no reason for such an apprehension ; but think it is undenyably plain in the text , that the election of these seven by the people was prior to their ordination , by imposition of the apostles hands , not onely in the relation of luke as mr. rutherford would have it , but also in nature and time , and that the contrary cannot be said without violence to the text , and injury and wrong unto the apostles , who by mr. rutherfords exposition are made to have bidden the multitude to look out for the men amongst them of honest report , &c. with a profession that when the multitude had so done they would then appoint the men to the businesse , when as by this exposition they had already appointed them thereunto , and had imposed their hands on them , which kinde of dealing had been such , that i think that apostles were farre from it . it cannot be that election of the people is the whol calling of a man to the ministery , and ordination only a supplement & a consummatory rite , or a benedictory sign , which may be spared . answ . take ordination as we do , and why cannot this be ? himself told us p. . that he thinks not imposition of hands so essentiall , but that a minister may be a minister without it , and that to him it is but a rite annexed to the calling : which is just the same that we hold , and yet when it comes from us it cannot be accepted . again , he told us pag. , . that there are true and lawfull pastors , who have no call but peoples election : which if it be so , doth it not then follow , that the election of the people with the mans acceptance thereof is his whole calling ? for if ●●ey be true and lawfull pastors , who have no more but this election , it seems it must needs be that this is the whole , and yet here this is denyed . but let us hear the reasons of this denyall . . because by the imposition of the hands of the presbytery timothy was made a minister , timothy . . answ . the text is not by the imposition of their hands , but with it , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as was noted afore out of didoclavius altare damascen . p. . who also sheweth in the same place at large , that this imposition of hands upon timothy was onely for a testimonall of the approbation of his calling , and for a ceremony used in commending him to god in their prayers . and in asmuch as the office of timothy was the office of an evangelist , how could an ordinary presbytery giving him either the gifts or the power belonging thereto ? when mr. rutherford hath satisfied mr. calderwood in these things ( a man of his own nation ) for i suppose mr. calderwood to be the authour of that treatise of altare damascen . then if we require more may be said of this place . in the mean time i proceed to the next . by this imposition of hands paul and sylas were separated to preach to the gentiles , acts . , , . answ . paul and sylas are not once mentioned in that place , but paul and barnabas ; but not to insist upon this mistake , let m. calderwood answer for us concerning this scripture : litigent , saith he , inter se pontifieii utrum impositio ista manuum fuerit ordinativa , &c. that is , let the papists contend amongst themselves whether this imposition of hands was for ordination , or onely for prayer : we hold that it was for prayer and comendatory ( for they commended them to the grace of god , as it s said , act. . . ) yet as they could not ord●●n them and call them to this ministery they being apostles , who were called extraordinarily , so neither could they appoint them to any certain imployment or place , for the holy ghost did direct the apostles in their troubles , and here it is expresly said , that they were sent forth by the holy ghost altare damascen . pag. . and then speaking of certain words of spalato , who saith , this imposition of hands was a pious ceremony , and used at that time as a certain part of an efficatious prayer ; he addeth , rectius diceret fuisse , &c. he might more rightly say , it was a rite and gesture of one that prayed , shewing the person for whom he did implore grace , rather then to call it an efficacious part of prayer . where we plainly see that he counts this imposition of hands on paul and barnabas no ordaining of them to the office , as some papists and it seems mr. rutherford would have it ; but onely a rite or gesture used when the presbytery commended paul and barnabas to god by prayer . this authour of altare damascenam also addeth , cum assumendi erant levitae , &c. that is , when the levites were to be taken from amongst the children of israel , the lord commands that they should be brought before jehova● , and that the children of israel should lay their hands upon the levites , numb . . , . although the lord had commanded to consecrate these levites unto the ministery ; yet he commands the israelites to lay their hands upon the levites , as if they had of their own accord in their name given them up to the ministery , as junius in his analysis doth fitly interpret it : thus far mr. calderwood whose judgement of this scripture numb . . whether it be not the same with ours , which was formerly expressed , let mr. rutherford himself be judge . mr. rutherford addeth that by imposition of hands the deacons were ordained , act. . and that this is enjoyned with the right manner of acting it to timothy , tim. . . and . . . as a ministeriall act . answ . whereas , he saith , it cannot be that laying on of hands should be onely a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and brings the example of these deacons , acts. . for proof , i desire no more , but that he would accept his own words for answer . now in pag. . his words are these ; it is not said that the deacons were ordained with fasting and prayer , as hands are laid upon paul and barnabas , act. . , . but simply that the apostles prayed and laid their hands on them ; which seems to me to be nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , and no ceremony or sacrament conferring on them the holy ghost . now if it was nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , then the substance of their calling consisted not in this laying on of hands , but in some thing else ; and what should that be but their election by the people ? . if it was nothing but a signe of praying over then , then why is a consummatory rite and a benedictory signe gainsaid and opposed ? for what great difference is there between a sign of prayer and a benedictory signe ? and how shall he be reconciled with himself , that saith it was nothing but such a sign of praying , and yet will not yeeld that it was onely a benedictory signe ? and for the other particular where he saith , this laying on of hands was enjoyed to timothy as a ministeriall act , if by ministeriall act he mean an act that could be lawfully performed by none , but onely by a minister ; then i desire some proof that this was so enjoyned to timothy . that it was enjoyned to him i grant , but that it was so enjoyned needs some better proof then a bare and naked aff●rmation ; specially sith many things were enjoyned to timothy in those examples , which were and are justly applyable to all christians . furthermore suppose it were true that imposition of hands were enjoyned to timothy as a ministeriall act , how doth this reach to make good the thing in question ? what should hinder but the peoples election might contain the substance of a ministers calling notwithstanding ? or how doth it therfore follow that imposition of hands was not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , but somthing more ? is there any such necessary consequence here , that the one of these must needs follow upon the other ? for my part i see it not , nor see any thing to the contrary , but if imposition of hands were such a ministeriall act , as he saith it is , yet it might still be meerly a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and the substance of the calling consist still in the peoples election . himself doth say , as we hear even now , that imposition of hands act. . though here he call it a ministeriall act , was nothing but a signe of praying over the deacons . and therefore these two , to be a ministeriall act ▪ and yet to be nothing but a signe of prayer or benedictory sign ( which to me are the same ) are not so inconsistent by his own doctrine , but that they may well stand together ; and himself doth also hold that the laying on of hands mentioned numb . . . was a ministeriall act , and that they who did it , performed the same as ecclesiasticall elders ; and yet i hope , he will not deny that the substance of the levites calling was in the immediate designement and appointment of the lord , and not in the performance of this laying on of hands . and therefore it follows , that if laying on of hands were granted to be a ministeriall act , yet still it may be meerly a benedictory signe , and the substance or essence of the ministers calling not consist in it , but in some thing else . a mini●●eriall calling standeth in an authoritative sending , rom. . . and i see not well how the people do send a minister to themselves . answ . but it is not easie to see how they choose a man for a minister to themselves , being sent unto them by god ? and if god doe furnish a man with gifts , and an holy propensity of minde to the work in generall , and to such or such a people in particular , and make way by his providence thereto , then who can deny , but such a man is sent of god unto that people ? and then if that people observing gods sending of him in this s●●t , do hereupon elect and choose him , and promise to be obedient to him in the lord , what is there now wanting to the substance and offence of such a mans calling to such a people ? and yet the man is not sent by them to themselves , but sent by god , and received and chose by them : parcus understands this sending , rom. . of gods sending ▪ and so doth piscator , and who not ? and to understand it otherwise would be to condemne the prophets and apostles , who were not sent by men at all , and yet did truely answer this scripture , in that they were sent of god : true it is , ordinary ministers are not sent of god in such an extraordinary way as the prophets and apostles were , but in an ordinary way , and by ordinary means ; which way and means if they doe observe , they also may be truly said to be sent of god unto the people . but peradventure our brother means that the people may not lawfully choose a man for minister unto themselves , except he be first sent unto them , in an authoritative way by some other men , and that otherwise he is not sent unto them of god ; which if it were true , then it would follow , that the apostles and prophets , as i said , were not sent of god : for plain it is , that men sent them not . it would also hereupon be requisite to be cleared , that some men besides the church have authority to send ministers to the church , and who these men are that have such authority had need to be cleared also ; which i for my part think will not be done in hast . and till this be done , i know no reason , but i may still retain this apprehension , that men who are qualified according to the rule of the word and duly elected and chosen to some office of the ministery by gods people , are truly sent of god unto that people . the people have not either formally or by grant of christ virtually , the keyes committed to them , how then can they give the keyes to pastors ? answ . yet in p. . he tells us that he denyes not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , or some other acts of the keyes simply necessary , hic & nunc : and this power , saith he , is virtuall not formall . now to say they have this power neither formally nor virtually , and yet to say they have this power virtually though not formally , what is it but an apparent contradiction ? but suppose it were true that the people had not this power either formally or virtually , yet mr. ball and mr. bai●s afore him doe tell us , that ministerially they may give what they never had , viz. as ministring to him who hath power and virtue of deriving its as a man not 〈◊〉 a peny of his own may give an l. if the king make him his almoner . thus the church deriveth a● taking the person whom christ describeth , and out of power will ●ave placed in this or that office in his church . the power of the imperiall dignity is not in the electo● of the emperours , nor the power of that office and authority , whereunto a minister is elected , in the church , who chuseth him to that office . ball tryall of separat . pag. , . pag. , . people may as the sheep of christ discern his voice , joh. . and so have a power of election of their own pastors : nor doth this make good what our brethren say , that therefore they may judge of a ministers fitnes ? answ . that which we say in this answ . pag. . there must be some ability to discerne whether men be qualified according to the rule , afore they ought to be elected and chosen into office ; and the people of god have so much ability as is of necessity required afore there be preceeding unto ordination ? wherein it is plain that our arguing is from the peoples ability to discern of mens fitnes afore they be elected , to their like ability to discern of their fitnesse afore they be ordained . they who have so much as to discern who are fit to be ordained : but the people of god may have the former . ergo , they may have the latter . now what saith mr. rutherford hereunto ? the assumption he denyes not , but in plain words grants it , saying , they may as christs sheep , joh. . discern christs voyce , and so have a power of election of their own pastors . it must then be the consequence that must be denyed , or the conclusion must be yeelded : what then brings he to overthrow the consequence ? nothing but this , that there is a two fold knowledge , one of christians not denyed to women and beleeving children , who cannot lay on hands , nor ordain mi●isters , as the presbytery doth . but what the other knowledge is he doth not plainly tell , except any thing may be gathered from the words following , where he saith , but for trying of ministers if they be the sonnes of the prophets apt to teach , able to convince the subtill hereticks , and gainsayers , and to put them to silence , there must be in a constituted church a colledge of pastors and prophets to try the prophets with a presbyteriall cognizance . answ . but if mr. rutherford would have spoken to the point , he should have given some reason why the people may discern a mans fitnes for election , and yet not discern his fitnes for ordination , for this is the consequence of our argument which he denyes . but in all that is here said about a two fold knowledge , one of christians , and the other of some body else , what is there in all this , that hath so much as the least shew of overthrowing or weakning the conseqence ? su●e nothing at all that i can finde : for as for that which is intimated , that christians have not so much knowledge as to try ministers whether they be apt to teach , &c. this makes nothing to the point in hand , that they can discern whether a man be fit to be elected , but not discern whether he be fit to be ordained ; but if it have any strength in it at all , it is as much against the ability of the people , which he expressely grants , as against that which he would deny ; as much against their ability of discerning his fitnes for ordination . and therefore how this should overthrow the one and not the other , i do not know : for to any mans understanding it makes no more against the one then against the other ; but either against both , which he will not grant , or else against neither which i conceive is the very truth ? to argue in this sort , they have not ability to convince 〈◊〉 hereticks ; ergo , they may not chuse their ministers , this mr. rutherford will not own ; for he plainly grants they may chuse : and therefore how can this arguing be good , they want ab●lity to convince hereticks ; ergo , they may not impose hands in ordination ? how the one kinds of reasoning can be better then the other , i do not know , except we would say some may be lawfully elected and chosen to the ministery , who cannot lawfully be ordained , but this i suppose cannot be said with truth . chap. xxvi . whether the epistles to timothy and titus , wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that the action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyters ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyters , and do not as well exclude the presbyters from medling therein , as exclude the people . there is onely one place more where i finde mr. rutherford excepting against the answer ; and that is in his pag. . where alledging the answer pag. . which i conceive is misprinted for pag. . he sets down these words as ours , viz. if people may not meddle with ordination , because it is proper to timothy and titus , this may prove that they were bishops who did ordaine elders there alone , which ministers may not doe there , for these epistles are not written to them as bishops alone , nor as elders alone , but as to a mixt state including the people . answ . the order of the dispute is this : reverend mr. herle arguing for ordination of officers by a consociated eldership , and not by a single congregation with or without a pastor , brings this reason for his judgement , viz. rules of direction how to proceed in ordination , and the epistles where those rules are laid down , are not written to the churches or congregations , but to timothy and titus . in answer whereunto we spoke to this purpose , that if this be a sufficient reason to prove that the people may not in any case meddle with ordination , then by as good reason it will follow , that ordination belongs not to the presbytery or synod , but onely to one man , as the prelates would have it ; the reason we give is , because timothy and titus were each of them but onely one man. and we there further say , that we doe approve the answer given to this kinde of reasoning by the refuter of dr. down●●s sermon , at l●●beth , who shews that what was written in those epistles , was not onely written for timothy and titus , but for other ministers also , and also in some sort for all the saints , and that therefore there is no more reason to appropriate those rules , onely to the use of presbyteries and synods , then only to the use of prelates . now what saith mr. rutherford to this ? some parcell of these 〈◊〉 are written , saith he , to timothy and titus as evangeli●ts . something 's are written to them as christians ; and finaditer & objective all is written for the churches good , but the bulk of the epistles is written to them as elders , and especially . tim. . . tim. . . for these and the like they were to doe with the presbytery as is cleare , tim. . . answ . this scripture tim. . doth shew that timothy had a gift given him by prophesie with the laying on the hands of the presbytery ; but how doth it hence appear , that not only timothy but titus also was to dothings with the presbytery ? titus is not at all mentioned in that scripture . and as for timothy , scripture tells what the presbytery did to him , but what he must doe with the presbytery it tells us nothing at all . again , if the bulk of the epistles be written to them as elders , and the churches be no otherwise concerned therein , but only finaliter and objectively , the epistles being written for their good , then what shall be the meaning and reason of these words in the conclusion of the epistle to titus , and of the latter to timothy , where it is said , grace be with you , and grace be with you all ? doth it not plainly appear hereby , that more then elders , even all the saints in those places are written unto in those epistles ? thirdly if there be rules in the epistles that doe belong to elders alone , yet sith it is confessed , and may not be denyed , that other things therein doe concern all christians , how shall we be assured that such passages , as concern ●aying on of hands are of the former sort , and not of the latter ? for to say it is so , and it is clear , we think doth not clear it at all , unlesse some further proofe be added . lastly , if all this were granted , which here is said by mr. rutherford , yet for ought i see , our answer is not removed thereby , but still stands fair and good : for in that place of the answer alledged , we say two things , . that these rules about ordination in timothy and titus may with as fair a colour be appropriated to one man , as to presbyteries and synods . . that the epistles and the rules therein are not to be appropriated to bishops alone or ministers alone , but are indeed of generall concernment for all the christians . now neither of these two is discovered by mr. rutherford . for as for the former of them , he saith nothing thereto at all ; and the latter he doth in a manner grant , not only by saying that all here is written for the churches good , but also by saying that somethings are written to timothy and titus as christians which is in effect the same that we had said before . and how our answer can be disproved or satisfied , either by saying nothing at all thereto , or by saying the same that we had said before , i leave it to the judicious reader to consider . finis . church-government and church-covenant discussed, in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions, sent over to them by divers ministers in england, to declare their judgments therein. together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant, sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare . as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government. and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points. mather, richard, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ], :e [ ]) church-government and church-covenant discussed, in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions, sent over to them by divers ministers in england, to declare their judgments therein. together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant, sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare . as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government. and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points. mather, richard, - . mather, richard, - . apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant. peters, hugh, - . davenport, john, - . [ ], ; [ ], , [ ], - , [ ] p. printed by r.o. and g.d. [and t.p. and m.s.] for benjamin allen and are to be sold at his shop in popes head-ally, london : . the first two parts were written by richard mather. editor's note "to the reader" signed: h. peter, i.e. hugh peters. in part a reply to: ashe, simeon. a letter of many ministers in old england, requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions. "an apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant" and "an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england unto nine positions", the latter written by john davenport, each have separate dated title page with "printed by t.p. and m.s. for benjamin allen" in imprint. "an apologie" begins new register and pagination and possibly was issued separately (cf. wing m ). the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: on t.p. of part : "june "; on t.p. of part : "june ". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bernard, richard, - . ashe, simeon, d. . -- letter of many ministers in old england, requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions -- controversial literature -- early works to . church polity -- early works to . congregational churches -- england -- early works to . congregational churches -- government -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion church-government and church-covenant discvssed , in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions , sent over to them by divers ministers in england , to declare their judgments therein . together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant , sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare . as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government . and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points . london , printed by r. o. and g. d. for benjamin allen and are to be sold at his shop in popes head-ally , . to the reader . it is not hard to believe that such discourses as this wil meet with divers censures , the prophane and ignorant loathing christ , and any thing concerning him ; the formalist accounting such truths troublesom that may ingage him in the change of his opinions and practises , and some of the wisest will be apt to question the tyming such light as this : yea doubtles this pamphlet-glut●ed age will so looke upon it , and lay it by . but because i doe conceive that this sword will not be sheath'd which is now drawn , till church-work be better known , and more countenanced , and since safety is laid up in the temple , psa . . , , . i could not but help on this , which attended and practised may prove our security next to christ . these were either sudden answers to our doubting and inquiring brethren , or some satisfaction rendred about our so much slighted church-covenant , which wee could not but thinke might come to view , for the present stay to some faithfull soules , that call for light , and intend to use it well : for others , of what kind soever , we must beare their harder thoughts , among th●se usuall loads of scandals , that men of our judgement must carry , especially if zeale for the truth draw them forth to publike observation ; nor doe we purpose ( god helping us . ) to succumbe under calumny , being the livery of quieter times then these , let us bee viler still , so god and his arke may be more glorious . yet this i doe professe for my selfe and brethren that as we have not bin dealt with , nor convinc'd of any offence , so we shall ever be ready to give an account of that hope which is in us , being call'd thereunto ; in the meane time we over looke these barkings of black mouthes , and wish a good comment be made upon the text of our plaine meaning . the onely way i know to reach gods mind in worship will bee to love the truth for it's owne sake : yea to love it when it shall condemne our practises and persons also : who hath not observed that the first step to error is the declining the truth in love to it ? ⁂ hence popery begat her first brat , and hath nurst it up with thesame milke ; we would earnestly desire that none would call that unsensonable or unreasonable , which god seemes even now to call for , at the calling of this synode , and will carry so much reason with it , as god and his truth will owne ; more tendernes and respect to our brethren we know not how to shew , who sent us these . questions , no other dealing would we have from our brethren not consenting with us . some rivers have bin noted to differ in the colours of the water , yet running in the same channell : let jesus christ be lifted up by us all ; let us love him whilst wee dispute about him . presbytery and independency ( as it is cal'd ) are the wayes of worship and church fellowship , now looked at , since ( we hope ) episcop 〈…〉 out , and will be buried without expectation of another resurrection . we are much charged with what we own not , viz : independency , when as we know not any churches reformed , more looking at sister churches for helpe then ours doe onely we cannot have rule yet discovered from any friend or enemy , that we should be under canon , or power of any other church ; under their councell we are . we need not tell the wise whence tyranny grew in churches , and how common wealths got their pressure in the like kind . these be our sighs and hearty wishes , that selfe may be conquered in this poore nation , which shuts the doore against these truths . know ( good reader ) we do not hereby go about to whistle thee out of any known good way of god. commonly questions and answers cleare up the way , when other treatises leave us to darknes . read them , and what we say for a church-covenant , it may save charge and time in reading other bookes , remember wee strive not here for masteryes , but give an account of our practise wherein if thou know'st we faile candidus imperti ; if we agree let us worke by our plat-forme ; and may thy soule flourish as a greene heath or watered garden . so prayeth thine heartily h. peter . the xxxii questions stated . _ . whether the greatest part of the english there ( by estimation ) be not as yet unadmitted to any congregation among you , and the reasons thereof ? . what things doe you hold to be essentiall and absolutely necessary to the being of a true visible church of christ ? . whether doe you not hold all visible believers to bee within the visible church as members thereof , and not without in the apostles sence ; cor. . and therefore ought so to be acknowledged , and accepted in all congregations wheresoever they shall come , and are so knowne : and ought ( if they desire and be not otherwise unfit ) of right to be permitted to partake in all gods ordinances and church priviledges there , so farre as they personally concerne themselves , although they be not as yet fixed members in particul●r covenant , either with that congregation where for the present they reside , nor with any other ? . whether you doe not hold that baptisme rightly ( for substance ) partaked doth make them that are so baptized , members of the visible church : and so to have right ( at least quoad nos ) to all the priviledges thereof ( so farre as they are otherwise fit ) untill they be cast out ( if they so deserve ) by excommunication . . whether doe you not admit children under age as members of the church , together with , and in the admission of their parent or parents : so as thenceforth they may partake of all church priviledges being otherwise fit ) without any other personall profession of faith , or entring into church covenant , when they shall come to yeares ? and how long doe you count them under age ? . whether do not you admit orphants under age , with and in their guardians ? . whether doe you admit or refuse children under age only acco●ding to the present estate of their nearest parents ? or doe you not admit them if any of their next ancestors before their parents were believers ? . whether doe you require of all persons of age , whom you admit members of any church ? . a publike vocall declaration of the manner and soundnesse of their conversion ? . a publike profession of their faith concerning the articles of religion . . an expresse verball covenanting to walke with the said church in particular , in church fellowship . . and not to depart from the said church afterward without the consent thereof : or how doe you hold and practise in these things ? . whether doe you hold all , or the most of our parish assemblies in old-england to be true visible churches of christ ; with which you may lawfully joyne in every part of gods true worship ( if occasion served thereto : ) or if not all or the most , then what ones are those of which you so account , and with which you durst so partake or joyne ; and in what respects ? and why be not the rest such as well as they ? . if you hold that any of our parishionall assemblies are true visible churches , and that the members thereof are all , or some of them ( at least ) members of true visible churches , then whether will you permit such members ( at least ) as are either famously knowne to your selves to be godly , or doe bring sufficient testimoniall thereof from others that are so knowne , or from the congregation it selfe whereof they were members here , to partake with you in all the same ordinances , and parts of gods true worship in any of your congregations ( as by occasion they may be there ) in the same manner , and with the like liberty , as you would permit any that might happily come unto you from any of the churches of geneva , france , the low-countreyes , or yet from any one church to another among your selves : suppose from some church about connecticut , or that of plimouth , &c. vnto the church at boston , new-towne , dorchester , &c. or if not , what may be the reason thereof ? . whether doe you hold our present standing in our parish assemblies here in old england , to bee lawfull and safe to be continued in , or how f●rre it may be so ? . whether doe you hold that every believer is alwayes bound to joyne himselfe as a fixed member to some one particular congregation , so as if he doe not , and so oft and so long as he doth it not , so oft and so long he is without the church in the apostles sence , cor. . as an heathen or publican , out of the kingdome of christ , and possibility of salvation , according to that maxime in divinity , extra ecclesiam non est salus . . vvhether doe you thinke it lawfull and convenient that a company of private and illitterate persons ( into a church body combined ) should themselves ordinarily examine , elect , ordaine , and depose their owne ministers of the word , without the asistance of any other ministers of other churches , where the same may be had ? . whether doe you hold that every small company of seaven , or nine , or twenty , or fourty persons , combined into a church body , be such a church ( as by the ordinance of christ ) hath , and ought to have all power , and exercise of church government : so as they may transact all ecclesiasticall businesses independently amongst themselves ? . whether do you give the exercise of all church power of government to the whole church , or to the presbiters thereof alone ? and if to those , then we desire to know what act of government , and superior authority ( properly so called ) may the presbiters doe , more then any other member may doe , or without the particular consent of the rest , wee crave to have those particular acts mentioned : and how , and over whom in those acts the presbiters doe rule ( in propriety of speaking ) more then the rest of the congregation doe ? . whether doe you not permit women to vote in church matters ? . whether in voting doe the major part alwayes , or at any time , carry ecclisiasticall matters with you , or in what things doth it , in what not ? . what meanes have you to preserve your churches in vnity and verity , or to correct or reduce any church erring in doctrine or practice . as , . whether you have any plat-form of doctrine and discipline agreed upon ; or if you have not , whether meane you to have one , and when ; and thinke you it lawfull and expedient so to have ? . whether have you combined your selves together into classes , or purpose so to doe , so as to doe no weighty matter without their counsell and consent ? . or give you any power to synods and councells to determine and order things that cannot otherwise be ended , so as that their determination shall bind the particular churches so assembled to due obedience , in case they decree nothing but according to truth and right , and to peaceable suffering , in case they should doe otherwise ? or what other course you have , or intend to have for that end aforesaid ? . whether hold you , that each particular church may lawfully make such laws or orders ecclesiasticall , for the government of it selfe , and the members thereof ; for decency , order , and edification , as shall oblige all her members , and may not be omitted without sinne ? . wherein hold you that the whole essence of a ministers calling doth consist : as , whether is election by the people it , yea or no ? or . is it so essentiall , as that without it , the ministers calling is a meere nullity ? or . is ordination as essentiall a part thereof , as the peoples election ? or . is it but a meer formality and solemnity of their calling ? . whether doe you hold it lawfull for meer lay or private men to ordaine ministers in any case ? . what essentiall difference put you between the office of pastor and teacher , and doe you obser●●e the same difference inviolably ; and do not your teachers by vertue of that office give themselves usually to application of doctrine as , well as your pastours ? and do they not also usually apply the seales ? . what authority or eminency have your preaching elders , above your sole ruling elders , or are they both equalls ? . vvhether may a minister of one congregation ( being thereto requested ) do as a minister any act of his ministery ( as preach , baptize , administer the lords supper , ordain , &c. in and unto other congregations besides his owne ? . whether hold you that a minister of a congregation , leaving or loosing his place ( suppose without his fault ) doe withall lose both nomen and esse of his ministery , and do become a meere lay , or private man , untill he be a new elected , and ordained ? . whether doe you allow , or thinke it lawfull to allow and settle any certain & stinted maintenance upon your ministers ? . whether doe you permit and call upon meer lay and private men ( neither being in the ministerie nor intended to it ) ordinarily to preach or prophecie publiquely , in , and before the congregation ? and whether thinke you that prophecying mentioned , cor. . be to be understood of such , and be an ordinary and standing order of god in the church ? . whether doe you allow and call upon your people publiquely before all the congregation to propound questions , move doubts , & argue with their ministers of matters delivered either by them or others , either at the same , or some other time ? . whether hold you that the conversion of sinners to god is ordinarily the proper fruit and effect of the word preached , by a minister alone , and that by vertue of his office alone , or that it is alike common to ministers , and lay persons , so they be gifted to preach ? . whether all and every of your churches ( including plimouth , &c. ) do precisely observe the same course both in constitution and government of themselves ? . vvhether would you permit any companie of ministers and people ( being otherwise in some measure approvable ) to sit downe by you , and set up and practise another forme of discipline , enioying like libertie with your selves in the common-wealth , and accepted as a sister church by the rest of your churches ? . vvhether hold you it lawfull to use any set forms of prayer in publique or private , as the lords prayer and others , either made by himselfe that useth the same , or else by some other man ? the answers to the aforegoing questions . the first question answered . all the english and others also are freely admitted to be present in our congregations , at the reading of the scriptures , and exposition thereof ( which is wont alwayes to goe along therewith ) at the preaching of the word , singing of psalmes , prayers , admitting of members , and dispencing of censures ; and many also are admitted to church communion , and so to partake in church ordinances and priviledges , as sacraments , power of election , censures , &c. though many also there are who are not yet admitted to this church communion . but whether is the greater number , those that are admitted hereunto , or those that are not we cannot certainly tell ? but in the churches in the bay , where most of us are best acquainted , we may truely say , that for the heads of families , those that are admitted are farre more in number then the other : besides whom there are likewise sundry children and servants that are admitted also . and for the reason● why many are not yet received to church communion , they are sundry . . many are not admitted because they are not yet knowne . every yeare hitherto god hath replenished the country with many new commers , and these at the first are not suddainly taken in , as members of churches , till by time there have been some triall of them , and better occasion to know them what they are . sometimes once a yeare there are in the land many hundreds , and some thousands of this sort . . when by time they come to be knowne , many do appeare to be carnall , and give no testimony of being members of christ , and therefore if they should offer themselves to be members of churches the churches would not see warrant to receive them , because the church is the body of christ . . some that are godly do of their own accord for a time forbeare to offer themselves , till they be better acquainted with the church and ministry where they intend to joyne , and with the wayes in which the churches walke in this country , and and till they be better informed what are the duties of church members . . those that are knowne to be godly , are all admitted in some church or other presently , upon their own desire , when they offer themselves thereto : except any have given offence by walking ( in any particular , in their conversation ) otherwise then becomes the gospell ; and then such are to give satisfaction to them to whom they have given offence , by acknowledgeing their offence , and shewing repentance for it , and then they are admitted . it is one thing what churches ought to be by the appointment of jesus christ , another , what weaknesse and swerving● from his appointment , he may beare withall for a time , before he renounce and cast off a people from being his church . in respect of the former our answer is , that when a visible church is to be e●rected planted or constituted , by the appointment of christ , it is necessary that the matter of it in regard of quality , should be saints by calling , visible christians and believers , cor. . . eph. . . and in respect of quantity no more in number in the dayes of the new testament , but so many as may meet in one congregation . cor. . & . . acts . . & . . and the forme , a gathering together of these visible christians , a combining and uniting of them into one body , by the bond of an holy covenant , for which we refer you to the apolgie of the churches in n. e. sent the last yeare in way of answer to mr. bernard . for the latter we deny not , but visible churches rightly constituted at the first , may degenerate , and great corruptions may grow therein , both in respect of matter and forme , and likewise in respect of their walking and administrations , and yet the lord in his patience may beare long with them , before he give them a bill of divorce , and make them lo-ammi , not a people ; as the example of the church of israel in the old testament . of the church of corinth , the churches of galatia , the churches of asia , and others in the new testament , doe abundantly manifest . but what degrees of corruption may be , before the soule as it were , and life , and being of a church be destroyed , is hard for us precisely and punctually to determine ; or to say thus farre a church may erre , and yet remaine a church ; but if it proceed any further , then it ceaseth to be a church any more ; onely in the generall this we observe , the lord doth not presently cast off a church or give them a bill of divorce , no not for fundamentall errors in doctrine , or idolatry in worship , or tyranny in government , till after obstinate and rebellious rejection of reformation , and the meanes thereof : for all these were found in the church of israel , when they crucified christ , yet the apostles rejected them not , till after the light of grace offered , and blasphemously rejected , acts . , . but if your selves have so studied this point , as to have ripened and formed thoughts therein , we should gladly receive light from you . we do not know any visible church of the n. t. properly so called , but onely a particular congregation ; and therefore when this question in the first and last clause of it speakes of believers within the visible church , as members thereof , although they be not members of that particular congregation , where for the present they reside , nor of any other : this speech seemes to us according to our apprehension to imply a contradiction . they that are within the visible church as members thereof , must needs be members of some particular congregation , because all visible churches are congregationall , as mr. baine sheweth at large from the church of antioch , act. . . the church at corinth , cor. . & . and other examples and reasons with answers to the objections to the contrary in his dioces . triall quest . . whereto we referre you in this point ; neither is he alone in this tenent , for mr. parker , and many other teach the same . those silenced and deprived ministers that wrote the booke called , the christian and modest offer of disputation , laying downe . propositions which they offer to maintaine against the prelats , give this for the fourth of them viz. there is no true visible church of christ , but a particular ordinary congregation onely . doubtlesse every true visible church hath power from christ to exercise excommunication and other ordinances of christ , so that they proceed therein according to the rules of the word , cor. . . . mat. . . now dr. whitakers sheweth against bellarmine , that excommunication belongs not to the universall church , but onely to a particular congregation . qui justè excommunicantur , saith he , co satanae traditos esse concedimu● , non t●men posse pr●priem , d●●i eject●s ex ecclesia catholica , quia excommunicatio non catholica , sed particularis ecclesiae censura est . de eccles . qu. . c. . wherefore if excommunication which belongs to the visible church , belongeth to a particular congregation , it followeth , that there is no visible church , but onely a particular congregation . secondly , as all visible believers are not without christ , but in christ , according as they are believers , so we easily grant ; that those without , of whom the apostle speakes , cor. . were unbelievers , pagans , and heathens , both without christ , and also without the visible church . for those that were in christ , and believers in him , were not wont to abstaine from joyning to some particular congregation or other ; and so it come to passe , that as they were in christ by their faith , so by such joyning they became also to be within the visible church . . but this we conceive is cleare also , that unlesse believers , be members of this or that particular congregation , to whose inspection and government they have commended themselves in the lord , they also in some respect may be said to be without , that is without the jurisdiction and power of the visible church , and without right to the priviledges of it , as long as they continue in that state : for the church hath nothing to do , either to dispence censures and church priviledges to pagans , who are without all churches , and without christ also ; or to such christians , who though they are not without christ , yet are not within any particular church : for neither the church , nor the ministers thereof may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and though those without of whom the apostle speakes , cor. . were pagans and heathens , both without christ , and without the visible church also , yet when hee speaketh of judgeing , and saith they might judge them that are within , and not judge them that are without , hee must not be understood as if he meant it simply of being in christ or without christ , and no more then so , but also of being in that particular congregation , and without it : for it is plaine , that those that were in christ , if they were not also within their particular congregation , they had nothing to do to judge them ; and those that were within their particular congregation , them they might judge , though they were not in christ . . and that church priviledges do not belong to believers , as such , but onely to such as withall are members of some particular church : the grounds and reasons in the answer to the third and fourth proposition sent the last yeare , do seeme to us to make manifest , whereto we do referre you , for further answer to this question . it is an opinion of the anabaptists , that the church is made by baptisme , and therefore when they constitute or erect a church , they do it by being all of them baptized , which was the manner of mr. smith , mr. helwis , and the rest of that company when they set up their church : the papists also do imagine , that men enter into the church by baptisme , and it is said , that their founts were set neere the doores of their temples , to signifie mens entring into the church by baptisme , and they thought themselves to be christened , or made christian soules by being baptized . but we do not believe that baptisme doth make men members of the church , nor that it is to be administred to them that are without the church , as the way and meanes to bring them in , but to them that are within the church , as a seale to confirme the covenant of god unto them . for . this is one point of the dignity and priviledge of the church , that baptisme and all church ordinances are given and committed to it , as circumcision , and church ordinances were given and concredited to the church of the jewes , ioh. . . now if baptisme in its first being and institution be given as a benefit and priviledge to the church , then baptisme is not that which makes the church ; but the church is presupposed , and must be before it , for the dones , or persons to whom a thing is given , must needs be before the gift that is given to them . . the nature and use of baptisme is to be a seale to confirme the covenant of grace between god and his church , and the members thereof , as circumcision also was , rom. . . now a seale is not to make a thing that was not , but to confirme something that was before ; and so baptisme is not that which gives being to the church , nor to the covenant , but is for confirmation thereof . to bring in baptisme before the covenant , and before the church , with whom god makes the covenant and then to bring in the church afterwards , is to make baptisme a seale unto a blanke , or to a falshood . when the jesuits of rhemes had said that christ sent apostles to the jewes to move them to penance , and so by baptisme to make them of his church . and that paul was sent to the gentiles to move them also to faith and penance , and by baptisme to make them of his church . this saying of making men of the church by baptisme , though uttered by them , as it were by the way , and not being the chiefe scope of their discourse , yet seemed to mr. cartwright so erroneous and unsound , that hee would not let it passe without bearing speciall witnesse against the same . and therefore in opposition thereunto he hath these words , and in another character for more conspicuousnesse , viz. that baptisme makes not men of the church , but sealeth their incorporation into it , hath been declared afore . argument of acts . . and that catechisme which is commonly said to be penned by our reverend brother mr. ball , or mr. nicholas , now with god , giving this for the definition of baptisme , that it is a sacrament of our ingrafting into christ , communion with him , and entrance into the church , doth in the exposition plainely declare , that when they called baptisme a sacrament of our entrance into the church , they did not meane that baptisme made men members of the church , but signified and sealed that they were members afore : the seed of abraham say they , pag . gal. . . or children of christian parents are within the covenant , are christians and members of the church , cor. . . rom. . . baptisme therefore doth not make them christian soules , but doth solemnly signifie and seale their ingrafting into christ , and that communion which the members of christ have with him their head , and doth confirme , that they are acknowledged members of the church , and entred into it , pet. . . . the lord hath had his church when there was neither baptisme nor circumcision , and therefore baptisme or circumcision cannot be that which constitutes the church . the church is one and the same in essence from the begining of the world to the end thereof , viz. a company of people combined together by holy covenant with god , and one with another , and this hath been before baptisme , and likewise before circumcision in the dayes of the patriarks afore abraham . yea if baptisme now , or circumcision in former time did make men members of the church , then for forty yeares together there was no making members of the church , for so long circumcision was discontinued , when baptisme was not yet instituted , ioss . . , . &c. and so by this meanes all that generation of the israelites that were not circumcised till their comming over jordan unto gilgall , should have bin no members of the church afore that time of their circumcision , which is contrary to the scripture , which as it gives the name and title of a church to the body of this people , when they were in the wildernesse , act. . ● . ( and they were in the wildernesse . yeares , in the latter parts of which time there were few left remaining that had beene circumcised ) so it witnesseth that afore this time of their circumcision they were in covenant with god and his church , deut. . , , . for that covenant was not made with their fathers that came out of egypt , and were circumcised there , because that generation was consumed in the wildernesse for their murmuring afore this time : but this covenant was made with the children , that as yet were uncircumcised , and therefore it was not circumcision that made men members of the church . . baptisme hath been administred , and no church nor members made thereby , and men have been made members of churches and not then baptised , but before . and therfore it is not baptisme that makes men members of the church , jerusalem and all judea , and all the region round about jordan were baptised of iohn confessing their sinnes , mat. . . and christ made and baptised more disciples then iohn , ioh. . . and yet neither christ nor john did make new churches , nor gather men into them themselves , both the one and the other living and dying members of the jewish church , which was not yet dissolved , untill upon their rejecting of christ ( not onely of his person upon the crosse , but of his gospel in blaspheming and persecuting grace offered them ) the two staves of beauty and bands were broken and cut assunder , whereby god did breake the covenant that he had made with that people , and the brotherhood between juda and israel , that is , he did un church them , zach. . , . &c. to . so that here is baptisme administred by john and christ , and yet men not received thereby into the church as members , for they were members long afore . againe , when any of those of jerusalem , judea , and the region round about jordan , that were baptised of john , or any of those , many more that were baptised of christ , were afterward joyned as members to those christian churches in judea , samaria , and galile , act. . . ( as no doubt many of them were ) they were not made members of those christian churches by being baptised , for they were baptised long afore by john and christ , so that those men were members of the jewish church , which was not yet dissolved , and were baptised afterward . and therefore it was not baptisme that made them members , either of the one church or of the other . . there are sundry inconveniences , which for ought we see will unavoidably follow , if we shall say that baptisme makes men members of the church ; for first , if baptisme be that which constituts the church , then baptisme may be dispenced by them that are no ministers , for extraordinary ministers , as apostles , and such like are now ceased ; and ordinary ministers have no power to dispence baptisme to any , but onely to them that are already members of the church , seeing their commission and power is limited to the church , and the flock of god over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers , acts . . besides , the church is before the ministers , seeing the power of choosing ministers is given by christ unto the church ; and therfore if baptisme be that which makes the church , then men must be baptised afore there be ministers to baptise them , and consequently without ministers . secondly , if baptisme rightly for substance partaked , doth make men members of the visible church , then it will follow that papists are members of the church : for they have baptisme so farre right for substance , as that it needs not be repeated . but mr. perkins teacheth that this baptisme proves not the church of rome , of which all papists are members , to be any true church of god , and gives sundry reasons for the same , in answer to them , that from baptisme rightly for substance administred in popish assemblies , would prove those assemblies to be true churches : exposit . of creede , in the article , i believe the holy catholique church . and surely for our parts , we doe not see how it will be avoyded , but if baptisme made men members of the visible church , either papists are members of the visible church , and the church of rome , of which they are members , a true visible church , or else we must renounce their baptisme as corrupt and false , even for the substance of it ; and so all such as shall be converted from amongst them , must be baptised againe , as not having had the substance of baptisme before : such dangerous consequences do follow from saying , that baptisme , rightly for substance partaked , doth make them that are so baptised members of the visible church . if any shall say , though baptisme do not make men members of the church , yet it proves them to be members as a cause , is proved by the effect , or an antecedent by a consequent : and therefore all baptised persons should be admitted to all church priviledges as members , whereever they become . we answer , that this will not hold neither , but suppose a man have received baptisme as a member of some visible church , which ought not to have been administred to him , had he not been a member , yet this doth not prove him to be a member still and so give him right to all church priviledges , though hee do remaine alwaies as a baptised person ; and the reason is , because his baptisme may remain , when his church fellowship may be dissolved , as that he can have no right to sacraments thereby : the church member-ship of a baptised person may be thus dissolved by sundry meanes . . by some sentence of excommunication justly passed against him for his sinne ; for that censure puts him away from the communion of the church , cor. . . . and makes him as an heathen or publican , mat. . . so that in that case he can have no right to sacraments by his member-ship , though he still continue a baptised person . . by his voluntary departing from the church and the communion of the same when it is unjustly done , ioh. . . iude . heb. . . in which case dr. ames resolves such schismaticks to be no members of the visible church , cas . cons . lib. . c. q. . resp. . . by the dissolution of the church of which he was a member ; for church member-ship is in relation to a church , and therefore if the church cease , the membership must cease also ; relatum & correlatum quâ ●alia sunt simul , adeoquese mutuoponunt et tollunt . now a church may be dissolved , . by apostacie and gods giving them a bill of divorce thereupon , ier. . . when yet there may be in such a church some particular person or persons deare to god , who in such a case are bid to come out from such an apostate church , rev. . . hose . . , . & , , . . by death , as by some grievous pestilence or masacre , &c. in which case one particular person surviving , cannot be counted a member of a church , when that church is extinct of which he was , and yet he remaines a person baptised if he were baptised afore . . if that be true which is taught by dr. ames cas . cons . lib. . c. . q. . resp . . that in some cases it is lawfull and necessary to withdraw from the communion of a true church ( which seemes to be agreeable to grounds of scripture , ephes . . . chr● . . . ) then that will be another case wherein church membership is disanulled ; for how a man can be counted in that state a member of a church , when hee hath lawfully and necessarily withdrawn himselfe from the communion of the church , we do not understand . and this shall suffice for answer unto this point , whether baptisme make men members of a visible church , which as we conceive , is the scope and drift of this question . yet before we proceed to make answer to the next , something also may be said concerning some passages in your amplification of this fourth question . as first concerning those words wherein you aske , whether they that are baptised have not right , quoad nos , to all the priviledges of the visible church ( so farre as they are otherwise fit : ) concerning which words we may say , . that those words of your parenthesis ( so farre as they are otherwise fit : ) doe plainely imply , that in your judgement , though one hath received baptisme , yet this doth not give him right to the priviledges of the visible church , unlesse other things do concurre to make him fit , wherein we consent with you . now if this be so , then this seemes to be an answer to that which ( as we conceive ) is the maine intent of the question . for how can it be , that baptisme alone should give men right to the priviledges of the church ( as members thereof , as the question seemes to import ) when in the amplification of it , it is granted , that persons baptised have no such right , except other things doe concurre to make them fit : we doe not see how these things doe stand together . secondly , those words as farre as they are otherwise fit : ) as they seeme to imply that which contradicts the maine scope of the question ; so they are so generall and of such a latitude , as that when the question is answered the reader is still left at uncertainty : for if such a parenthesis may be annexed ( so farre as men are otherwise fit : ) then the like question may be applied to many other things besides baptisme , and would receive the very same answer , as in case of baptisme it would receive . as for example , if one should aske whether morall honestie or litterall knowledge in the scriptures , or historicall faith , or the use of reason , whether any of these doe not give men right to church priviledges , so farre as they are otherwise fit ? you know the answer would be , yea. for though none of these be sufficient alone , to give men right to the priviledges of the church , yet they are such as they that have them , have right so farre as they are otherwise fit , and so if it were granted that they that have received baptisme have right , as you say , to all the priviledges of the church , so farre as they are otherwise fit : yet as this doth not prove that baptisme alone doth give men such a right , so still it remaines to be considered , and more particularly declared , what those other things are that besides baptisme must concurre to make one fit ; and unlesse those things be expressed in particular , the question with such a generall qualification as is here set down , may be answered affirmatively , and yet the reader will be still in the darke , and as much to seeke as before . lastly , those words in the latter end of this question had need to be further cleared , wherein you aske , whether baptised persons have not right to all the priviledges of the church , quoad nos , untill they be cast out by excommunication ? for suppose an open blasphemer , a sabath-breaker , an adulterer , a drunkard , &c. that deserves to be excommunicated , be not proceeded against according to rule , but be suffered to continue in the church through bribery or other corruption of the times , would you say that such a person had right either before god , or quoad nos to all the priviledges of the church , onely because hee is baptised ? surely your words doe import so much , unlesse that parenthesis ( so far as they are otherwise fit ) may be any helpe in this case . and yet we hope you doubt not but such doggs and swine have no right either quoad nos , or otherwise , to the priviledges of the church as long as they continue in that state , although they have received baptisme , and although through the sinfull neglect of men they be not cast out by excommunication , as they doe deserve ; for if grosse sinners have such right to church priviledges , onely because they are baptised , then by what right can the church cast them out by excommunication , as you seeme to confesse that she may : for can she castimen out from such priviledges whereunto they have right ? doubtlesse such proceedings were not right , unlesse the church have such a transcendent power as the apostles never had , for they could do nothing against the truth but for the truth , nor had they any power for destruction , but for edification , cor. . . . wherefore we dare not say such men have right to church priviledges ( quoad nos ) untill they be actually cast out , because before they be cast out , it must be cleare to the church , that they have no such right , or else she can have no lawfull right to cast them out . . infants with us are admitted members in and with their parents , so as to be admitted to all church priviledges of which infants are capable , as namely to baptisme ; and therefore when parents are once admitted , their children are thereupon baptised , if they were not baptised afore , as sometimes it falls out . . but whether they should thereupon be admitted to all other priviledges when they come to age , without any personall profession of faith , or entring into church covenant , is another question , of which by reason of the infancy of these churches , we have had no occasion yet to determine what to judge or practise one way or other . . but for the present this we would say ; it seemes by those words of your parenthesis ( being otherwise fit ) you do acknowledge , that children of church members are not to be admitted to church priviledges , unlesse they be fit , wherein we consent with you as counting it altogether unsafe , that idiots , franticks , or persons openly ungracious and prophane , should be admitted to the lords table , though they were the children of church members , and thence we may inferre the necessity of their personall profession of their faith , when they come to yeares , and taking hold of church-covenant , whereby we meane onely a renewing of covenant , or a new professing of their interest in gods covenant , and walking according to it , when they shall be adulti : for otherwise we do confesse , children that are borne when their parents are church members , are in covenant with god even from their birth , gen. . . . and their baptisme did seale it to them . but notwithstanding their birthright , we conceive there is a necessity of their personall profession of faith , and taking hold of church-covenant when they come to yeares ( though you seeme to thinke it not needfull : ) for without this it cannot so well be discerned ; what fitnesse is in them for the lords table and other church priviledges , as by this meanes it might ? and inasmuch as entring into church-covenant is nothing else but a solemne promise to the lord , before him and the church , to walke in all such wayes as the gospel requireth of church members , if they shall refuse to make any such promise , and shall be unable , or unwilling to make any profession of their faith , when it is required of them , this would be an evidence against them , of their unfitnesse for church priviledges , inasmuch as they openly breake that rule , pet. . . be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in you with meeknesse and feare . what hope is there that they will examine themselves when they eat of that bread and drinke of that cup , cor. . . who when others do examine them they are unable or unwilling to give answer ? or how shall we thinke that they will receive the lords supper worthily , or walke as becomes the gospel if they do refuse to professe or promise any such matter ? wherefore in this point we cannot but fully approve the practise of the reformed churches , among whom it is the manner as zepporus writeth , to admit children that were baptised in their infancy unto the lords table , by publique profession of their faith , and entring into covenant , consuetum est , saith he ut qui per aetatem , neque doctrina catechetica perfectum ad sacram coenam primum admittuntur , fidei confessionem coram tota ecclesiâ publicè edant , &c. polit. ecles . l. . c. . p. . that is , the manner is , that they who by reason of age and perficiency in the doctrine of catechisme are first admitted to the lords supper , should publiquely before the whole church , make confession of their faith , being brought forth into the sight of the church by their parents , or them that are instead of parents , at the appointment of the minister : and likewise should promise and covenant by the grace of god to continue in that faith which they have confessed , and to leade their lives according to it : yea and moreover , to subject themselves freely and willingly to the discipline of the church ; these words we see are full and plaine , that children are not in those churches received to the lords table without personall confession of faith , and entring into covenant before . . but how long children should be counted under age , and whether orphans are not to be admitted with their guardians ( which is your sixt quaery ) we should be willing to heare your judgement therein , as having of our selves hitherto had no occasion to search into those questions ; onely this we thinke , that one certaine rule cannot be given for all , whereby to determine how long they are under age , but according as god gives experience and maturity of naturall understanding , and spirituall ; which he gives sooner to some then unto others . such children whose father and mother were neither of them believers , and sanctified , are counted by the apostle ( as it seemes to us ) not faederally holy , but uncleane , what ever their other ancestors have been , cor. . . and therefore we baptise them not . if you can give us a sufficient answer , to take us off from that scripture , cor. . which seemes to limit this faederall sanctity or holynesse to the children whose next parents one or both were believers , we should gladly hearken to you therein ; but for the present , as we believe we speake , and practise according to our light . and if we should goe one degree beyond the next parents , we see not but we may goe two , and if two , why not . , , or ? for where will you stop ? and if we shall admit all children to baptisme , whose ancestors within a thousand generations have been believers , as some would have us , we might by this reason baptise the children of turkes , and of all the indians , and barbarians in the country ; for there is none of them but they have had some believing ancestors within lesse then a . generations , it being farre from so much since noah and his sonnes came forth out of the arke . we do believe that all members of churches ought to be saints , and faithfull in christ jesus , eph. . . cor. . . col. . . phil. . . and thereupon we count it our duty to use all lawfull and convenient meanes , whereby god may helpe us to discerne , whether those that offer themselves for church members , be persons so qualified or no : and therefore first we heare them speake concerning the gift and grace of justifying faith in their soules , and the manner of gods dealing with them in working it in their hearts : which seemes to be your first particular in this quaery . secondly , we heare them speake what they do believe concerning the doctrine of faith , so taking a tryall what measure they have of the good knowledge of the lord , as knowing that without knowledge men cannot well examine themselves and discerne the lords body , as church members ought to doe when they come to the lords table . and hereby also we would prevent ( as the lord shall helpe us ) the creeping in of any into the church that may be infected with corrupt opinions of arminianisme familisme , &c. or any other dangerous error against that faith which was once delivered to the saints , as knowing how easily such men if they were admitted , might infect others , and perhaps destroy the faith of some . and this seemes to be intended in your second particular . for both these we have our warrant as in generall , from those places which shew how church members ought to be qualified , that they ought to be saints , faithfull in christ jesus , &c. so in speciall from that , math. . . acts , & acts . . . where men before they were admitted , made profession of repentance towards god , and faith towards the lord jesus christ ; for it is expressely said , that they confessed their sinnes , they confessed and shewed their deeds , they professed their faith in jesus christ the sonne of god. thirdly , when this is done , those that by manifestation of repentance and faith are approved ; as fit members for a church do openly professe their subjection to the gospel of christ , and to all the ordinances of god in that church , where now they joyne as members , which seemes to be your third particular in this quaerie . the distinction of particular churches one from another , as severall and distinct societies , seemes to us a necessary ground for this practise ; for without this kinde of covenanting , we know not how it would be avoyded , but all churches would be confounded into one , inasmuch as it is neither faith , nor intire affection , nor towne-dwelling , nor frequenting the assemblies that can make a man a member , or distinguish church members from other men : see the apologie . . your fourth particular in this quaerie is answered in the answer to the sixt position sent the last yeare : besides all these , we heare the testimony of others , if there be any that can speake of the conversion and godly conversation of such persons : which we judge to be a warrantable course from acts . , . it is the second of your quaeries , what things we hold necessary to the being of a true visible church in generall : which being answere● ; this of the parish assemblies in england in particular , whether we hold all or the most of them to be churches , we conceive might well have been spared . they that now the state of those assemblies may make application of the generall to the particulars , if they have a calling therunto . yet because you are pleased to put us to this also , we thus answer . . that we doubt not but of ancient time there have been many true churches in england consisting of right matter , and compacted and united together by the right forme of an holy covenant . for mr. fox sheweth at large , that the gospel was brought into england in the apostles times , or within a little while after , acts & mo● . lib. . begining p. . where hee reporteth out of gildas , that england received the gospel in the time of tiberius the emperor , under whom christ suffered ; and that joseph of arin . athea was sent of philip the apostle from france to england , about the yeare of christ . and remained in england all his time , and so hee with his fellowes laid the first foundation of christian faith among the brittaine people , and other preachers and teachers comming afterwards , confirmed the same and increased it . also the said mr. fox reporteth out of t●rtullian , that the gospel was disperced abroad by the sound of the apostles into many nations , and amongst the rest into brittaine , yea into the wildest places of brittaine , which the romans could never attaine unto , and alledgeth also out of necephorus , that simon zelotes did spread the gospell to the west ocean , and brought the same into the iles of brittanie , and sundry other proofs he there hath for the same point . now if the gospel and christian religion were brought into england in the apostles times , and by their meanes , it is like there were churches planted there of saints by calling ( which is the right matter of churches ) and by way of holy covenant , as the right form : for that was the manner of constituting churches in the apostles times , as also in the times afore christ , as hath been shewed from the scripture in the apologie . and the footsteps hereof ( though mixed with manifold corruptions that have growne in aftertimes ) are remaining in many places of the land to this day , as appeareth by those questions and answers at baptisme . abrenuntias ? abrenuntio ; credis ? credo : spondes ? spondeo : dost thou renounce the devill and all his works ? i renounce them all . dost thou believe in god the father & c ? i do believe . dost thou promise to walk according to this faith & c ? i do promise . for though it may be they conceived , that men entred into the church by baptisme , yet hereby it appears that their judgment was that , when men entred into the church there ought to be a renouncing of sin , and believing on christ , and an open professing of these things , with a promise to walk accordingly . secondly , though popish apostacy did afterwards for many ages over-spread all the churches in england ( as in other countries ) yet we believe god still reserved a remnant according to the election of grace amongst them , for whose sake he reserved the holy scriptures amongst them , and baptisme in the name of the trinity onely . and when god of his rich grace was pleased to stirre up the spirit of king edward the sixth , and queene elizabeth to cast off the pope and all fundamentall errors in doctrine and worship , and a great part of the tyranny of popish church government though at first some shires and sundry parishes stood out against that reformation for a time , yet afterwards they generally received the articles of religion agreed upon anno . which are published and consented to by all the ministers endowed in every congregation , with the silent consent also of the people , and subscription of the hands of the chiefe of them ; wherein they do acknowledge no rule of faith or manners , but the holy scriptures ; no divine worship but to god onely ; no mediation nor salvation but in christ onely : no conversion by mans free will , but by gods free grace : no justification but by faith : no perfection nor merit of works , with sundry other necessary and saving truths ; all which containing the marrow and summe of the oracles of god wich are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the eloquia des , concredited onely to the church . rom. . . . and which are that saving doctrine of truth , which is fruitfull in all the world where it comes , ●olo . . , . and upon which the church is grounded and built , and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth , tim. . . ) we do therefore acknowledge , that where the people do with common and mutuall consent gather into setled congregations ordinarily every lords day , as in england they do , to heare and teach this doctrine , and do professe their subjection therunto , and do binde themselves and their children ( as in baptisme they do ) to continue therein , that such congregations are true churches , notwithstanding sundry defects and dangerous corruptions found in them , wherein we follow the judgement of calvin instit . . . . . &c. w●itaker , de notis ●cclesiae cap. . and many other divines of chiefe note : nor can we judge or speake harshly of the wombes that bare us , nor of the paps which gave us suck . thirdly , but inasmuch as grievous corruptions of latter yeares have greatly increased in some of those assemblies ( as we heare ) both in doctrine , in worship , and in the government thereof , besides those that were when some of us were there , and in former yeares : therefore we are not without feare ( and with griefe we speake it ) what things may come unto at length . if corruptions should still increase and grow ' they might come in time ( if the lord be not more mercifull ) unto such an height as unto obstinacy in evill , and to wilifull rejection of reformation , and the meanes thereof ; and then you know it might be just with god to cast off such utterly , out of the account and number of his churches ; so as never to walke among them any more : which we heartily pray the father of mercies to prevent that such a day may never be : but if ephesus repent not of her declinings , the lord hath threatned that he will come unto her quickly , and remove her candlesticke ; that is , he will un-church them , rev. . , . and lukewarme laodicea shall be spewed out of his mouth , rev. . . and therefore it behoves such of them to repent , and reform themselves betime , lest the lord deale with them as he ha●h done with others . and it much concernes your selves ( in hearty love and faithfullnesse we speake i● , and so we desire you wou●d accept of it ) it very much concernes you ( deare brethren ) whil'st you live amongst them , to beare faithfull witnesse against the corruptions that are remaining in any of them , in respect of their constitution , worship , d●scipline and ministerie , l●st by any sinnefull silence or slacknesse of yours that should blow the trumpet and stand in the gap , the breach should be made wider , and the iniquity increase ; and lest men should flatter themselves in their sinnes , under the name and title of the true church , as the jewes thought themselves secure because of the temple of the lord , jer. . . . because you would know not onelie whether we count those assemblies to b● churches , but what wee would doe for joining in gods worship in them , if occasion served thereunto : we answer , that if we were in england , we should willingly joine in ▪ some parts of gods true worship , and namely in hearing the word , where it is truely preached in sundry assemblies there ; yea though we doe not know them to bee churches , or knew not what they were , whether true churches or no ? for some worship , as praier , and preaching , and hearing the word , is not peculiar to church assemblies , but may be performed in other meetings . mars-hill at athens was no church , nor the prison at philippi , and yet the word of god was preached and heard lawfully w●th good successe in th●se places , act. . and act. . how much more might it bee lawfull to heare the w●rd in many parish assemblies in england , in when gener●lly there is a professing of christ ; and in many of them : m●n , soul●s that are sincere and upright hearted christians , as any are this day upon the face of the earth ; and m●ny congregations indeed that are the true churches of jesus christ , see mr. robinsons treatise of the lawfullnesse of hearing the ministers in the church of england . . but why we durst not partake in their prescript lyturgie , and such ordinances though true , as are administred therein ; we gave you account the last yeare , in answer to the first and second position : as al●o in an answer to a discourse of that subject , penned by our reverend brother mr. ball. what we have done in our ignorance whil'st we lived amongst you , wee have seene cause rather to bewaile it in our selves here , then to it in others there . our answer to this question is this , . that we never yet knew any to come from england in such a manner as you do here describe ( ● the things you mention may be taken conjunctim , and not severally ) viz : to be men famously known to be godly , and to bring sufficient testimoniall thereof from others that are so knowne , and from the congregation it selfe , whereof they were members : we say we never yet knew any to come to us from thence in such a manner , but one or other of the things here mentioned are wanting : and generally this is wanting in all of them , that they bring no testimoniall from the congregation it selfe : and therefore no marvell if they have not beene admitted ( further then before hath been expressed in answer to quest . . ) to church ordinances with us , before they have joyned to one or other of our churches ; for though some that come over bee famously knowne to our selves to be godly , or bring sufficient testimoniall with them from private christians , yet neither is our knowledge of them , nor testimonal from p●ivate christians sufficient to give us church-power over them , which wee had need to have , if we must dispence the ordinances of church communion to them ? though it be sufficient to procure all due reverent respect , and hearty love to them in the lord. . if the things mentioned were all to be found , yet it w●u●d be also requisite ( if they would partake of church ordinances with us , and yet not joyne to any of our churches ) that w●● should know the congregation it selfe , from which they come , not onely to be a true church , but also what manner of one it is : for such persons cannot communicate with us in church ordinances in their owne right ; because they joine not as members in any of our churches ; but it must be in right of the congregation in england , to which they doe belong , and by virtue of the communion of churches , and so our admitting of them to communion with us in such a manner , and upon such terms , is not only an act of communion with the persons themselves , but also with the congregation of which they are : now as we cannot of faith admit men to church ordinances , which we believe belong only to church members ; unles we know the congregation of which they are members to be a true church . so somtimes a congregation may be so corrupt , that though it doe remain a true church , yet for the corruption and impurities of it , it may be lawfull and necessary to withdraw communion from the same ( for which dr. ames gives sundry grounds and reasons , cas . cons . lib. c. . q. . resp . . ) or at least to protest against some grosse corruptions therein . in regard whereof we had need to have some knowledge and information what that congregation is , with whom now we have church communion ; when in heir right wee admit m●n into communion , that wee may know how to admit such m●n , and what to require from them more or l●sse . and this together with that want of testimoniall from the congregation is one main● reason , why some few godly men that have come from england upon occasion , not with purpose of continuance here , but of returning again● ; have not beene received to church ordinances during thei● abode in the countrey ( though this we may say also , that we know not of any such that have requested to be received ) whereas ●uch as have come in l●ke manner from one c●u●ch to another m●ngst our selves , upon their requ●st have been r●ceived : the reason ne say is , because these churc●es are better knowne then the parish assemblies are . . but if men come from one church in this countrey to another with purpose there to stay , and not to returne to the church from whence they came , ( which is the manner of all , or the most that come from england ) they are not rec●ived into our churches ; but upon the very same tearmes , and in the same manner , as men are received that come from england ; viz : upon personall profession of their faith , and entring into church covenant , in that church to which they now come ( and the same we say of such as come from any of the churches in other countries ) and wherefore are they not received otherwise , because we renounce the church of which they were members as no true church ? not so , but because wee believe in matter of faith , ( such as is the admitting of members ) any true church may erre : and there may now bee seene some unworthinesse in the man which did not appeare when hee was admitted in the other church : and therefore no reason that the act of one church in the admitting of members or the like , should bee a binding rule unto another ; for all churches are left to their liberty to admit and receive such into their chu●ch ; as they shal find to be fit according to the rule of the word , and to refuse others , without respect of what they have bin before , whether members of this church , or that church , or of any church , or none : and therefore in this , our walking and practice , is alike towards one another , and towards others as it is towards yours . in which practise we are not alone , for the very same as mr. parker reporteth , is the manner of the reformed churches , amongst whom , no man is admitted for a member ; but upon personall profession of faith , and entring into church covenant , though it may be he have formally beene admitted in the very same manner in the church where he lived before , polit. eccles . l. . c. . . . p. . if the ground of this qu. were any doubt in your owne consciences concerning your owne way , there were no fault in propounding such a qu. for further light and satisfaction , if wee were able to give it . or if it did ari●e from any unnecessary intermedling of ours in your matters , so as to take on us to condemne or judge your present standing , when we have no calling thereunto , there were then reason why we should give account of our owne doings or sayings . but if it came from some men we should looke at it as a tempting question , tending onely to make matter , and pick quarrells ; and then we should leave it to them that framed it , to consider the ground of it ; and to fr●me their owne answer to it . as for us , we have alwayes been slow and loth to judge or condemne your present standing ; remembring the saying of the apostle , who art thou that judgest another mans servant , he standeth or falleth to his own master , rom. . . but now knowing you well ( reverend and deare brethren ) and your integrity , we thinke wee may lawfully and safely answer , and that wee would doe by promising a few distinctions , for explaining the termes of the question . . concerning the persons in the parish assemblies , which may be meant of such as the providence of god hath so dispos●d that they are free and at liberty : or of such as are bound , and it may be not sui juris , as wives , children under the government of parents , servants , apprentices , prisoners , sickefolkes , &c. . concerning the parish assemblies , which may bee meant either of such as want the preaching of the word or sacraments , or discipline , or any other holy ordinance of christ , or have many ordinances in them which are not of god , but of men : or else it may be meant of some others , which in both respects are reformed and pure , if there be any such . . concerning standing in them , which may be meant onely of habitation , and dwelling upon house or land within the precincts of the parish ; or else in conforming in judgement or practise to the corrupt ecc●esiasticall ordinances used in those assemblies ; and contenting themselves therewith . . concerning lawfull and safe ; where safety may be meant either of safety from sinne , or from danger by persecution , these distinctions wee judge necessary to bee premised , because your question is , whether wee count your standing in the parish assemblies lawfull and safe ; or how farre it may be so ? and so our answer is in . propositions . . some persons , and namely those that are not sui juris , may lawfully and without sinne ; though it may bee not safely without danger of persecution , continue such standing in the parish assemblies , as doe dwell within the pr●c●●cts of them , so long as they neither conforme themselves to the corruptions of men by such continuing of their standing , nor live in the neglect or want of any ordinance of christ through their owne default . . such standing in the parish assemblies , where a man shall , and must conforme to the corruptions of men , in doctrine or worship ; or the government of the chu●ch , is not lawfull for any to be continued in . . to continue such standing in the parish assemblies , as to live in the want of any ordinance of christ is not lawfull , nor can be done safely without sinne of them , to whom the providence of god doth open a doore of further enlargement . the first of these propositions wee suppose you doubt not of . the second is confirmed by many places of scripture ; and namely by such as these . though israel play the harlot , yet let not iudah offend , and come not yee to gilgall , nor go up to bethaven , nor sweare the lord liveth : ephraim is joyned to idolls , let him alone , hos , . . . come out from among them , and be ye separate saith the lord , and touch no uncleane thing , and i will receive you , cor. . . be not partaker of other mens sinnes , keep thy selfe pure , tim. . . come out of her my people , that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes , and that yee receive not of her plagues , rev. . . have no fellowship with the unfruitfull works of darkenesse , but reprove them rather , eph. . . ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment ; because he willingly walked after the commandement , hos . . . wee ought to obey god rather then men , act. . and . . jeroboam made priests of the lowest of the people , which were not of the sonnes of levi , and ordained a feast in the fifteenth day of the eigth moneth , in the month which he had devised of his ●w●e heart , &c. and then the levites left their suburbs and their posessions , and came to iudah and ierusalem , for ieroboam and his sonnes had cast them off from executing the priests office unto the lord ; and after them out of all the tribes of israell , such as set their hearts to seek the lord god of israel , came to ierusalem to sacrifice to the lord god of their fathers , king. . . with chron. . . . vpon these and such like grounds of holy scripture we are perswaded that such standing in the parish assemblies , as this second proposition mentions , is not lawfull for any to be continued in . and we hope , you doubt not of the truth of this second proposition neither , though we are afraid that many christians , when it comes to practice , doe sinfully pollute themselves by partaking in the ceremonies , and other corruptions in the prayers , in the doctrine , and in the ministery remaining in sundry of those assemblies , whom it will bee your part whilst you live among them faithfully and by all good meanes to instruct and teach , and exhort , to save themselves from the corruptions and pollutions of the times and places wherin they live ; as well in this particular of church matters , and gods worship as in other things : wherein wee wish with all our hearts that our selves when time was , had been more watchfull and faithfull to god and the soules of his people , then the best of us were : the lord lay not our ignorance to our charge . the third proposition may bee made good sundry wayes , . by precepts , wherin we are commanded to observe all things whatsoeuer christ hath commanded , mat. . . to seeke the kingdom of god and his righteousnesse , mat. . . to yeild our selves unto the lord , and to enter into his sanctuary , chr. . . and therefore we may not please our selves to live in the neglect of any ordinance which he hath instituted and appointed . . by examples , for the spouse of christ will not rest seeking her beloved untill shee finde him in the fullest manner , cant. . , . and . , . &c. and the same minde was in david ; as appeares by his heavy lamentation , when he wanted the full fruition of gods ordinances , and his longings , and prayer to be restored thereto , psal . . and psal . . and . although he enjoyed abiathar the high priest , and the ephod with him ; and likewise gad the prophet , sam. . , , . &c. sam. . . when good ezra in his journey from babilon to ierusalem , viewing the people at the river ahava found none of the sonnes of levi there , afore he would goe any further , he sent unto iddo a the place ca●iphia for ministers for the house of god , ezra . . . &c. and when being come to ierusalem they found by the law , that it was an ordinance of god to dwell in boothes , and keepe the feast of tabernacles in the seventh month , they presently set upon the practice thereof , in the appointed season ; when the like had not beene done in israel , from the dayes o● ioshua the son of nun unto that day , neh. . . &c. yea , and our lord jesus himselfe , though ●ee had no need of sacraments , to be to him any scale of remission or forgivenesse of sinnes , yet in conscience to the ordinance of god , ( that he might fullfill all righteousnesse , mat. . ▪ ) and for our example , did both observe the passover , and likewise was baptized , and did eat with his disciples at his last supper . all which examples being written for our learning , doe shew us how farre wee should bee from contenting our selves to live in the voluntary want of any ordinance and appointment of god. . there is none of the ordinances of christ , but they are needfull and very profitable in the right use of them to the soules of his servants : and therefore they should not be neglected . to thinke of any of them , as things that may well bee spared ; and therefore to content our selves to be without them , is to call in question the wisdome of him that did appoint them , and to make our selves wiser then god. . our owne infirmities and spirituall w●nts are such , as that wee have continuall need of all the holy meanes which the lord hath appointed , for supplying what is wanting in us ; for correcting what is amisse ; and for our continuance and growth in grace . hee is a proud man , and knowes not his own heart in any measure , who thinkes he may well be without any spirituall institution and ordinance of jesus christ . upon these and such like ground , we hold i● not lawfull nor safe , for any christian that is free , to continue such standing in the parish assemblies where he cannot enjoy all the spiritual and holy ordinances of christ . and hereupon we do exhort you lovingly in the lord , to take heed that this be not the sinne of any of you , nor of any other , whom your example may embolden thereunto : for necessity is laid upon you , and upon all christians , by th●se and such like grounds of the holy word of the lord ; that neither you , nor others doe live in the voluntary want of any holy ordinance of christ jesus , but either ●et them up , and observe them in the places where you are ; or else ( if you bee free ) to remove for the enjoyment of them , to some place where they may be had ; and it may be of the two , rather this latter . for sometimes i● israel sacrifice to their god in the land , they shall sacrifice the abomination of the egyptians to the lord : and ●o say they , shall wee sacrifice the abomination of the egyptians before their eyes , and will they not stone us ? it is better therefore in such a case to goe into the wildernesse , and to do it there , exo. . . , . hos . . . mat. . . as for that opinion that may be in the minds of some , that if any ordinance of goa be wanting , it is the sinne of them that are in authority , and they must answer for it ? but the people of god may without sinne , live in the want of such ordinances as superiors provide not for them . the answer hereuntois , that indeed the ordinances of god may more peaceably and quietly bee observed where the commandement and countenance of magistrates is afforded ; for then is fullfilled the saying that is written , kings shall bee thy nursing fathers , and queens thy nursing mothers , esa . . . and doubtlesse it is a great blessing , when god ( that hath the hearts of kings and princes in his hands , prov. . . ) doth incline them to favour , and further the service of the house of god , as somtimes he doth , even when themselves are alients and strangers . cyrus , darius , and artaxerxes , gave great countenance and incouragement to the jewes to build the house of god , that they might offer sacrifices of sweet savour to the god of heaven , and pray for the life of the king and of his sonnes , ezra . , . i● which case good ezra blesseth the lord , that had put such a thing into the kings heart , to beautifie the house of the god of heaven , ezra . . and therefore kings and all in authority , should be prayed for , that we may lead a godly and peaceable life , in godlinesse and honesty , tim. . , . neverthelesse , the things that are ordained and commanded of god , the observing of them in a peaceable way ( yeilding out reverence to all that are in authority , and praying for them ) this observing of the ordinances of god cannot be unlawfull , for lack of the commandement of man , as appeares by the doctrine and pract●ce of the apostles , act. . . & . . and the approved practise of believers in their times , if they had neglected the ordinances of god and namely church ordinances , till they had had the commandement of magistrate therein , such neglect would have beene their grievous sinne , and for ought we know they might have lived and died without them , the magistrates at that time be●ng all either heathens or jewes , yet enemies ; and if church communion and the exercise of such ordinances , as christ hath appointed for his churches , was lawfull , and needfull , and profitable , when magistrates were enemies to the gospell ; and bee not so when magistrates doe professe the gospell , we doe not see but christians may sometimes be losers by having christian magistrates , and in worse condition , then if they had none but professed e●emies . besides this , if ▪ superiors should neglect to provide bodily sustenance for them that are under their charge ; we doe not thinke that any mans conscience would be so scrupulous , but hee would thinke it lawfull b●y all good meanes to provide for himself in such case , rather then to sit ▪ still and say , if i perish for hunger , it is the sinne of them that have authority over mee , and they must answer for it : neither can we tell how the conscience of any christian can excuse himself , if he thinks no● the ordinances of christ , as necessary for the good of his soule , as food is necessary for his temporall life ; or doe not willingly in this spirituall hunger break through stone walls as the proverbe i● , and runne from sea to sea to seeke god in his owne way , rather then to perish without spirituall food , because others provide not for him . and this is our answer to this eleventh quere , concerning your standing in the parish assemblies : which answer of ours , and the exhortation therein , as we pray the father of mercies to make effectuall by his blessing for those good ends , which wee intend therein , so wee cannot in the same , but reflect upon our selves and our owne wayes in times past ; as seeing not a little cause to judge our selves before the lord , as long as wee live , for our sinfull ignorance and negligence , when wee were in england , ●o observe and walke according to those rules of the word , which now upon occasion given by this qu. wee doe commend to your selves and other christians . the lord in mercy pardon our offences , and direct your selves and his servants in ●ur deare native countrey , both in remaining and removing to doe that which is pleasing in his sight . whereas this qu. in the first clause and last but one compared together speakes of believers out of the kingdome of god , and possibility of salvation , we conceive it is a contradiction , for those that are true believers , cannot be out of possibility of salva●on , but possibly may , yea most undoubtedly shall bee saved , joh. . . and . . the contrary whereof is to overthrow all the promises of the gospell , and with the papists and arminians to establish falling from grace . . for that saying , extra ecclesiam non est salus , wee conceive it cannot be universally true , if it be meant of the visible church , which in the new-testament is a particular congregation ; but onely being taken for the church invisible , or the vniversall church , which is the whole company of the elect in heaven , in earth , and not yet borne , ioh. . . and . . out of which elected company there is not one that shall be saved , nor any of the elect neither , but in the way of regeneration , ioh . . but as for the visible , we believe the old saying is true , there are many wolves within , and many sheepe without , joh. . . and therefore it cannot be universally true , that out of the visible church there is no salvation : inasmuch as all christs sheepe shall be saved , ioh. . . of whom yet notwithstanding there are some not joyned to the visible church : if the thiefe that repented on the crosse was a gentile , as it was possible he was ; then hee was uncircumcised , and then it will trouble a man to tell of what visible church he was : and yet there is no doubt but he was saved . the like may be said of iob and of his friends , of whose salvation we make no question , and yet it is a great question whether they were of any visible church or no , inasmuch as the visible church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the house and posterity of abraham , isaac , and iacob , of which line & race it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come , nor that they joined themselves in visible fellowship with that church . the centurion , mat. . . and the woman of canaan , mat. . were both of them believers and saved , and yet it doth not appeare that they were members of the visible church of the iews , which was the only visible church of god in those times . men of yeares ought to be believers , and so in the state of salvation afore they be joyned to the visible church , and therefore there may be salvation out of that church : for it is possible that such an one as being a believer is fit to bee joyned to the church m●y di● and depart this life afore hee can bee joyned , as that good emperour valenti●ian . died before hee could bee baptize● . and for your selves if you should thinke that baptisme makes men members of the visible church ; as is intimated in your fourth question : you may not then deny but there may be salvation out of the visible church : unlesse you will say that there is no salvation without baptisme , which we believe is farre from you to imagine . . we doe hold that so ; oft and so long as a believer doth not joyne himselfe as a member to some particular congregation or other , so oft and so long : he is without the church in the apostles sence , cor. . for the church in the apostles sence , is a particular congregation ; for he writeth to , and of the church at corinth , which church was a particular congregation , cor. , , & . . & . . . and having power of judgeing her own members ( as all visible churches have ) yet had no power of judgeing any , but such as were within that particular congregation , as all them they had power to judge , whether they were believers in christ or no. mr. b●i●● ( as we said before ) is very large and cleare in proving this position , that the churches instituted by christ and the apostles , were only such as might meet in one congregation ordinarily , and answers many objections to the contrary , di●ces . tryal . q. . . for the question it selfe , we hold that every believer ( if possibly he can ) is alwayes bound to joyne himselfe as a member to some particular congregation or other ; and yet not because , else he is a heathen and publican , or out of possibilitie of salvation , as this question suggests , but upon other grounds . . because of the commandment of god , cant. . . math. . . . . because willingly not to doe this is a secret disparagement to the wisdome of god that hath ordained ▪ churches with giving power and privilegdes therunto mat. . . cor. . . and promises of his gracions presence to be with them and amongst them , mat. . . rev. . . exod. . . now to what end were all these , if believers should live and no● joyne themselves to some church ? these priviledges and promises would in such case be all in vain , and the mercy of god offered therin , unthankfully neglected . thirdly , voluntarily abstaining from joyning to the church is noted and condemned as a sinne , heb. . . and a signe of fearefull unbelievers , act. . . of the rest durst no man joyne unto them . fourthly , good men in scripture have been forward in practise this way , isay . , . zach. . . act. . , . and . . and have mourned with much bitternesse when they have been deprived of liberty so to doe , isay . . and ps . . and . and . fiftly , this joyning is a part of that order , and orderly walking which is required of believers , col. . . cor. . . sixtly , if believers doe neglect this joyning , it is not onely a wrong to themselves , but also a great unkindnesse to god : for if one believer may doe this , why not another , and if two why not three , foure &c. and ▪ if all believers should doe thus , god should have no visible churches upon earth , unles he will acknowledge the assemblies to be of unbelievers churches : foras stones in the mountains are not an house untill they be joyned together , though they be digged up out of the quarry , and squared & hewn , and hereby are made fit to be joyned together , and so to become an house : so believers are not a church till they be joyned in holy covenant in some congregation , though the worke , of grace and faith in their soules have made them fit , and meete to be a church of god , which is the house of the living god : or as the humane soule and body are not a man unlesse they be united ; so christian or believers are not a visible church without visible union into some particular . congregation . mr. perkins having said that forth of the militant church : there are no meanes of salvation , no preaching of gods word , no invocation of gods name , no sacraments , and therefore no salvation ; concludes with these words ; for this cause every man must be admonished evermore to joyn himselfe to some particular church , being a sound member of the catholick church , expos . of creed in the article of the church ; and doctor ames gives . reasons , why every christian should ioyne himselfe to some particular church or other cas . cons● . l. . c. . q. . and in another place he hath these words . illi igitur qui ▪ occasion●● habent adjungendi sese ecclesiae , & ●am negligunt , gravissimè peccant , non tantum in deum ratione institutionis , sed etiam in suas proprias animas ratione benedictionis adjunctae , etsi obstinatè persistant in ipsa incu●ia , quicquid alias profitentur , vix possunt haberi pro fidelibus regnum dei verè quaerentibus . medul . theol. l. . c. . sect. . first , whereas this th . question speakes of private and illiterate persons into a church body combined , wee looke at this as an incongruous expression , if not a contradiction . for a company so combined as to make a church , are not fitly called private , ( though they be illiterate in respect of humane learning ) in as much as a church or a church-body , especially in times and places of peace and liberty , is a publike congregation and society : and the acts of communion which they have among themselves ( such as is the election and deposing of ministers , whereof the question makes mention ) are not private acts but publike or people-like . neither are literate or learned men therefore publike , because they are indued with humane learning , unlesse withall they be called to publike office or imployment in church or common-wealth : and therefore if illiterate be an exegesis of private , we conceive that exegesis is not good . secondly , whereas this question asketh whether it be lawfull and convenient that such a company should themselvs ordinarily examine elect , ordain and depose their owne ministers ? if ordinarily be as much as frequently , we answer three things . first , that if one church doe frequently come to such actions , that is , to take in and put out the same men , this is not without suspition of much levity and rashnesse in the people , or unfaithfulnesse or unworthy walking in the ministers , or both ; and therefore ordinar●ly , that is , frequent taking in and putting out againe in this manner , is as much as may be to be avoided . secondly , when such things doe often and frequently fall out , it is doubtlesse a judgement of god upon such a people to have so many changes in their ministers ; as was that of which it was said , three shepheards have i cut off in one moneth , zach. . . that people should be so oft as sheep having no shepheard ; for the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof , pro. . . so in like sort for the transgressions of a church many are the ministers thereof ; we meane , when they have many ministers , by the comming in and going out of the same men , or the removing of some and the taking in of others in their roome : for otherwise , it is a blessing of god , when a church is furnished with variety of ministers at the same time , acts . . & . . phil. . . thirdly , yet this word ( ordinarily ) doth seeme to imply , that in your judgement sometimes this may be lawfull and convenient to be done ; now upon the same ground on which it may be done sometimes , upon the same it may be done at other times , if there be just occasion . thirdly , for the assistance of the ministers of other churches , of which this question maketh mention , if this be onely by way of counsell or advice , we know nothing unlawfull or inconvenient in such assistance , because churches are as sisters one to another , cant. . . and therefore it is our practice in ordination of ministers , as also in removall of them , to have such assistance . but for authority and power , we know none that ministers have properly so called in any congregation or church , save that one , over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers : and therefore we thinke it not lawfull nor convenient , when a church is to ordaine officers , to call in such assistance ( viz. by way of authority or power ) of the ministers of other churches . fourthly , we judge it lawfull and convenient that every church of christ ( what ever their humane learning be , whether much or lesse ) should elect and choose their ministers : god doth not ( for ought we know ) give this power of calling their owne ministers unto such churches as have many learned men in them , and deny it unto others ; but gives it indifferently to every church , as they are a church , and so to one church as much as to another . if we thought you doubted whether the power of calling ministers were given by christ unto the church , we might here alledge many reasons for it ; but this being the constant judgement of the eminent lights of this age , and the former who have been studious of reformation , wee must hope ( till we hear to the contrary ) that your selves do not differ from them in this point . as for us , those grounds and reasons from the holy scripture which are alledged by calvin , zanchius , mr cartwright , dr ames , and ( ) others doe satisfie us in this particular . ( ) institut . . . . ( ) de redemp . in . praecep . p. . . &c. who alledgeth bucer and musculus . ( ) . reply p. . &c. ( ) m●dul . theol. l. . c. . sect. & cas . consc . lib. . c. . q. . ( ) demonist . of disc . c. . fifthly as for that objection which seemes to be implyed in the word illiterate , that it should not be lawfull or convenient for a body to choose their owne ministers , because they are illiterate , or want men of humane learning among them , wee further answere thereto ; first , that among us when a company are to be combined into a church-body , ( as you speake ) there is usually one or other among them who doe not want all humane learning but have been trained up in universities and usually have been ministers and preachers of the word in our native countrey , and approved by the godly there ; and are here by the company that doe so combine intended to be chosen afterwards for pastors or teachers : and accordingly , after the church is gathered , are in due time elected and ordained into their places . secondly , but yet if there were none such among them at their first combining and uniting , we doe not see how this could hinder them of liberty to choose ministers to themselves afterward , when god shall send any to them that may be fit for the worke ; because this is a liberty that christ hath purchased for them by his precious bloud , and they that are fit matter to bee combined into a church-body , are not so illiterate but they have learned the doctrine of the holy scripture in the fundamentall points thereof ; they have learned to know the lord and their owne hearts , they have learned christ , the need they have of him , and of all the meanes of enjoying him , the worth that is in him , and the happinesse laid up for them in him : and therefore they may not be reproached as illiterate or unworthy to choose their owne ministers : nay , they have the best learning , without which all other learning is but madnesse and folly , and science falsly so called , tim. . . and indeed of none account with god , nor available for direction and guidance in the affaires of the house of god , such as is this election of ministers , nor for the salvation of the soule in another world , cor. . . . & . ▪ job . . . though it may be , and is very usefull therewith . thirdly , you know and ( we doubt not ) doe abhorre as much as wee the spirit of those men that are proud of their owne learning , and vilified believers in christ for want thereof , saying , doe any of the rulers , or of the pharisees believe in him ? but this people which know not the law are cursed , john . . . . first , a company of fourty persons , or twenty , or lesse , is not such a small company , but they may be a church properly and truely so called , if there be nothing against them but this , that such a number may seeme not sufficient : we do not finde that god doth any where say , they must be above fourty , or else they cannot be a church ; and therefore no mortall man can justly say it : nay , rather that speech of christ , of two or three gathered together in his name , matth. . . doth plainly imply that if there be a greater number then two or three , whom they being not satisfied in the answere of an offendor may appeale unto , and in so doing tell the church , such a small number may be a church , and may have the blessing of his presence to be among them . besides , the time hath been , in the dayes of adam and noah , when there was not fourty persons in the world , and yet adams family in his time , and noah● in his , was in those dayes a church , if there was any church on earth . and if christ and his twelve disciples were the first christian church , it is too much for any man to say , that twenty or fourty is such a small company that they cannot be a church . secondly , for the matter of government , there is a difference between ability and right : in respect of the former , in as much as some cases are more difficult then others , and some churches of lesse spirituall abilities then others , and god doth not afford assistance and direction at some times so much as at others ; therefore in such cases it is requisite that churches should seeke for light , and counsell , and advice , from other churches : as the church at antioch did send unto the church at ierusalem in a question , which could not bee determined among themselves , act. . . but this is not because they have no right , but when they are not able . thirdly , as for right let it be considered how the church at antioch did long endevour to have ended that matter amongst themselves , before they determined to send to ierusalem , vers . . which shewes that they had power or right to have transacted that businesse among themselves , if ability had served ; or otherwise , that endevour had been sinfull , as being a presuming to doe that , whereunto they had no right . we conceive then that every church , properly so called , though they be not above fourty , or twenty persons , or ten , or the least number that you mention , have right and power from christ to transact all their owne ecclesiasticall businesses among themselves , if so be they be able , and carry matters justly , and according to the rules of the word . the power of the keyes , matth. . . among other things noteth ministeriall or delegated power of government ; and this power is committed by christ unto the church , as may appeare , if wee consider , first , to whom christ directed his speech in that place of scripture ; not to peter alone , but to all the disciples also , for to them all the question was propounded by christ , vers . . and ●eter answered in all their names . secondly , that he and they were not then looked upon as apostles , or generall officers of all churches ( for that commission was not yet given them ) but as disciples and beleevers , believing with the heart , and confessing with the mouth jesus christ , the rocke upon whom the church is built ; wherein as they did represent all believers , so in peter and the rest , the keyes are committed to all believers that shall joine together in the same confession , according to the order and ordinance of christ . and therefore afterward this power of government is expresly given to the church , matth. . . according hereunto in that description of the visible church , as it is instituted by christ in the new testament , rev. . the members of the church are seene by john in a vision sitting on thrones , cloathed with white rayment , having on their heads crownes of gold , vers . . now thrones and crownes are ensignes of authority and power , to note unto us that authority and governing power , which is committed by christ unto the church . doctor fulke hath this saying ; the keyes of the kingdome of heaven ( whatsoever they are ) be committed to the whole church , and not to one person onely , as cyprian , augustine , chrysostome , jerome , and all the ancient doctors ( agreeably to the scriptures ) doe confesse , against the popes pardons chap. . p. . and elsewhere he saith ; the authority of excommunication pertaineth to the whole church , although the judgement and execution thereof is to be referred to the governours of the church ; which exercise that authority , as in the name of christ , so in the name of the who●e church whereof they are appointed governours , to avoid confusion : against the rhemists on cor. . sect. . and doctor whitaker hath these words : hoc est quod nos dicimus petrum gessisse personam omnium apostolorum ; quare hanc promissionem non uni petro , sed toti ecclesiae factam esse , & totam ecclesiam in illo claves accepisse . de pontif . roman . q. . c. . sect. . and in that booke hee is pregnant and plaine in this , that by the keyes is meant all ecclesiasticall power and jurisdiction , and that these keyes are given in peter to the whole church : the same is also taught by master parker polit. eccles . l. . c. . . . . , . where he proves by many arguments , that every visible church ( which hee acknowledgeth to be no other but a particular congregation ) hath the power of all ecclesiasticall government and jurisdiction commited to it by christ jesus ; and answereth many objections to the contrary : and page of that third book , making mention of foure opinions concerning those words of the keyes , and power of binding and loosing matth. . . the first of them that understand the pope onely to be meant thereby as peters successour : the second of them that understand it of the diocesan bishop : the third of them that understand those words as meant of the ministers but the ministers alone : the fourth of them that understand peter to represent the church in that place , and therefore that that promise is made unto the church : of these he refuseth the three first as unsound , and maintaines the fourth as onely agreeing to the truth . and master baine saith , every church by christs institution hath power of government , dioces . tryall quest . . p. . and hee tells us page . what hee meant by church : the word church ( saith he ) wee understand here not figuratively tataken metonymically for the place , syn●cdochecally for ministers administring ordinances ; but properly , for a body politicke standing of people to be taught and governed , and of teachers and governours : so that in his judgement every church ( properly so called ) hath power of government within it selfe : and by these words of his it may also be concluded , that all power of government is not in the elders alone for the power of government by church institution is in every church properly so called ; but ministers are not a church in propriety of speech , but onely figuratively by a synecdoche ; and therefore all power of government is not in the ministers alone , but a church properly so called is the body politique , consisting of people and ministers : but of this more may bee said in the next question . fourthly , for the matters of independency , whereof this question also makes mention : we doe confesse the church is not so independent but that it ought to dep●nd on christ both for direction from the rules of his holy word , ioh. . . act. . . and for the assistance of his holy spirit , to discerne those rules , and to walke according to them when they shall be discerned , ioh. ● . . and . . but for dependency upon men , or other churches , or other subordination unto them in regard of church government or power , wee know not of any such appointed by christ in his word . our saviours words are plaine , if a man heare not the chu●ch , let him beto thee as an heathen or publican . and his promise unto his church is plaine also , that whatsoever they shall binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven , &c. mat. . . &c. and the apostle bids the church deliver the impenitent sinner unto satan , cor. . . , . now when the man upon the churches censure comes to be in case as an heathen or publican , yea becomes bound in heaven as well as bound in earth , and also delivered unto satan , this seems to us to be such a firme ratification of the churches censure , as leaves no roome for any other ecclesiasticall power on earth to reverse or disanull the same , and so takes away that kinde of dependency and subordination of churches . nos plane dicimus ●cclesias initiò regi solitas esse à suis pastoribus , sic quidem ut nullis essent externis , aut ecclesi●s , aut episcopis subditae , non colossensis , ephaesi●ae , non philippensis , thessaloniensi , non h● romanae , non romanae cuiquam , se● paris omnes inter se juris essent , id est , sui omnes juris et mancipij whitak de pontif. roman . question . chapter . section . that is in summe . the churches were not dependent and subordinate to others , but all of them absolutely free , and independent . wee affirme saith master baine , that all churches were singular congregations equall in dependent each of other in regard of subjection , diocesse tryall . q . pag. . the twentieth chapter of mr. parker his third booke of eccles . politie , hath this title de summitate ecclesiae particularis . and the title of the . is , de paritate ecclesiarum , where he openeth and explaineth , and by many arguments and testimonies confirmeth what we hold of the independency and paritie of churches , to which learned discourse of his , we referre you for further satisfaction in this point . wee doe believe that christ hath ordained that there should be a presbytery or eldership , tim. . . and that in every church , ●it . . acts . . cor. . . whose worke is to teach and rule the church by the word and lawes of christ , tim. . ● and unto whom so teaching and ruling all the people ought to be obedient and submit themselves , heb. . . and therefore a government meerly popular or democraticall ( which divines and orthodox writers doe so much condemne in morillius , and such like ) is farre from the practice of these churches , and we believe farre from the minde of christ . secondly , neverthelesse a government meerely aristocratical , wherein the church government is so in the hands of some elders , as that the rest of the body are wholly excluded from entermedling by way of power therein , such a government we conceive also to be without warrant of the word , and likewise to be injurious to the people , as infringing that liberty which christ hath given to them in choosing their owne officers , in admitting of members , and censuring of offendors , even ministers themselves when they be such ; as the church of colosse must admonish archippus of his duety , col. . . master parker you know hath . arguments to prove the superiority of the churches over and above her officers , polit. eccles . lib. . cap. . and master baine saith , if the church have power by election to choose a minister , and so power of instituting him , then of destituting also : instituere & destituere ejusdem est potestatis , dioces . triall p. . and againe , no reason evinceth the pope , though a generall pastors subject to the censure of a church oecumenicall , but the same proveth a diocesan bishop ( and wee may adde , and a congregationall minister ) subject to the censure of the particular church , pag. . and whereas it might be objected , then may sheep censure the shepherd , children their fathers , which were absurd . to this he answereth , that similitudes hold not in all things , naturall parents are no waies children , nor in state of subjection to their children : but spirituall fathers are so fathers , that in some respects they are children to the whole church . so shepherds are no waies sheep , but ministers are in regard of the whole church . . parents and shepherds are absolutely parents and shepherds , bee they good or evill , but spirituall parents and pastors are no longer so , then they do accordingly behave themselves p. . ( to the same purpose and more a● large is this objection answered by master parker , polit. eccles . l. . c. . p. . . and againe , if their owne churches have no power over them , it will be hard to shew wherein others have such power of jurisdiction over persons who belong not to their owne churches , p. . so that all power is not in the officers alone , seeing the officers themselves , if they offend , are under the power of the church . even paul himselfe though an extraordinary officer , yet would not take upon him to excommunicate the incestuous person , without the church , but sends to them exhorting them to doe it ; and blames them because they had not done it sooner , cor. . which shewes that the exercise of all church power of government , is not in the officers alone : and therefore the lord iesus reproving pergamus and thyatira for suffering balaamites , nicholaitans , and the woman iezebel among them , and calling on them for reformation herein , rev. . sends his epistle , not onely to the angels of those churches , but also to the churches , or whole congregations , as appeareth rev. . . and also in the conclusion of those epistle , where the words are , let him that hath an eare heare what the spirit saith , ( not onely to the angels ) but unto the churches ; whereby it appeares , that the suffering of these corrupt persons and practises , was the sinne of the whole church , and the reforming of them , a duty required of them all ▪ now the reforming of abuses in the church , argues some exercise of church government , as the suffering of them argues some remissenesse therein ; and therefore it followes , that some exercise of church government was required of the whole church and not all of the angels alone . sure it is the whole congregation of israel thought it their duty to see to the reforming of abuses , when they appeared to spring up amongst them , as appeareth by their behaviour & practise when the two tribes and an halfe had set up the altar upon the bankes of jordan , ios . . for it is said , that the whole congregation of the children of israel gathered themselves together at shilo , to go up to warre against them , v. . and when phineas and ten princes with him , were sent to expostulate with them about the matter , it was the whole congregation that sent them , v. , . and when they delivered their message they spake in the name of the whole congregation , saying , thus saith the whole congregation of the lord , what trespasse is this ? &c. v. . which plainely declares , that the whole congregation ( and not the elders or rulers alone ) thought it their duty to see abuses reformed and redressed , which could not be without some exercise of government . and when achan the sonne of ca●mi had committed a trespasse in the accursed thing , ●is . . it is counted the sinne of the whole congregation and such a sinne as brought a plague upon them all : for it is said the children of israel committed a trespasse in the accursed thing , v. . and god saith to ioshua ( not the el●ers have sinned , but ) israel hath sinned , and they have transgressed my covenant , and they have stolne of the accursed thing , and put it among their owne stuffe . v. . and for this , wrath fell on all the congregation of israel , and that man perished not alone in his iniquity , iosh . . . now why should not he have perished alone , but wrath must fall upon them all ? and why should his sinne , be the sinne of all the congregation , if the care of preventing it , and timely suppressing the same , ( which could not be without some exercise of church government ) had not bin a duty lying upon all the whole congregation , but upon the elders and officers alone ? doubtlesse the just lord , who saith , every man shall beare his owne burden , gal. . . would not have brought wrath upon all the congregation for achans sinne , if such government as might have prevented , or timely reformed the same , had not belonged to the whole congregation , but to the elders alone . and before this time all the children of israel ( and not the elders alone ) are commanded to put lepers and uncleane persons out of the campe , numb . . , . by all which it appeareth , that all exercise of church government is not in the elders alone , but some power is in the people . and else-where he counts it no sacriledge for members of the church , though not in office , to handle those keyes , mat. . but rather a frivolous thing to thinke otherwise ; quasi absque sacrilegio , saith he , tractare claves priva●i nequeant , qui e●●s privatim tractare jubeatur . quoties fratres suos admonere , consolari , et aedificare . imò ve●ò est & publica clavium tractatio quam plebs christiana in unum coacta sine ullo sacrilegio ministrat , cor. . polit. eccles . l. . c. . p. . and yet this is not a singular conceit of his or ours , but the concurrent judgement of many worthy witnesses of the truth in these latter dayes , who do with great consent hold the ecclesiasticall government to be of a mixt form compounded of all three estates , and that the people are not to be wholly excluded from having any thing to do therein . si velimus christum ipsum respicere , fuit semper ecclesiae regimen monarchicum : si ecclesiae presbyter●s , qui in doctrina et disciplina suas partes agebant , aristocraticum : si totum corpus ecclesiae quatenus in electione episcoporum et presbyterorum suffragia ferebat , it a tamen ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 semper à presbyteris servaretur , democraticum : sic partim aristocritum partim democraticum , partim etiam monarchicum est , semper que fuit ecclesiae regimen , whita . de pontif . rom. qu. . c. . sect . . the church ( saith mr. cartwright ) is governed with that kinde of government , which the philosophers that write of the best common-wealths affirme to be the best . for in respect of christ the head it is a monarchy , and in respect of the ancients and pastors that governe in common and with like authority among themselves , it is an aristocraty , or rule of the best men ; and in respect that the people are not secluded , but have their interest in church matters , it is a democraty , or popular state , reply p. . and when dr. whitegift , from the doctrine of the authors of the admonition would infer this consequence , viz. that then the more that ruled the better estate it should be , and so the popular state should be the best : in answer hereunto he saith , i have spoken of this before , where i declared that the mixed estate is best , both by the example of the kingdome of christ , and also of this our realme , pag. . . and againe , whereas mr. dr. saith , that excommunication , and consequently absolution or restoring to the church again pertaineth only to the minister : it remaineth that i shew that the presbytery or eldership , and the whole church also , hath interest in the excommunication , and consequently in the absolution or restoring unto the church againe , p. . and againe , it is certaine saint paul did both understand and observe the rule of our saviour christ ( viz. that rule , mat. . tell the church ) but he communicateth this power of excommunication with the church : and therefore it must needs be the meaning of our saviour christ , that the excommunication should be by many , and not by one , and by the church , and not by the minister of the church alone , for hee biddeth the church of corinth twise in the first epistle , once by a metaphor , another time in plaine words , that they should excommunicate the incestuous person . and in the d. epistle , understanding of the repentance of the man , he intreateth them that they would receive him again : and therfore considering that the absolution of the excommunication doth pertain unto the churches , it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertainunto it , p. . and again that the ancients had the ordering of these things , and that the peoples consent was required , & that the ministers did not take upon them of their own authority to excommunicate , &c. it may appeare almost in every page of cyprians epistles . in augustines time it appeareth also , that that consent of the church was required , p. . to these may be added , mr. fenner , who speaking of the ecclesiasticall presbytery , and of the businesse which the presbytery is to deale in , which hee distinguisheth into judiciarie , as deciding of doubts , and dispencing of censures . and extrajudiciary , as election , ordination &c. hath these words , atque haec sunt negotia quae praestari debent : in quibus per omnes ecclesias summa ecclesiastica potestas presbyterio demandata est , ita tamen ut in his quae maximi sunt momenti , et ad ecclesiae totius bonum velruinam maxime spectant , post 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suam de his captum consilia ecclesiae denunciantur , ut si quid habeant quod consulant vel objiciant in ●●edium proferant : postea , autem auditis et assentien ibus ( nisi ad majorem senatum negotium deferri fuerit , necesse ad turbas vita●das sive componendas , quod tum cum major pars ecclesiae dissentit , faciendum est ) decervenda et pro decretis ecclesiis pro●onenda sunt , and then he declares what hee meanes by those matters maxim momenti , viz. excommunication , absolution , elections , and deposings of ministers and such like , sacrae the. lib. . c . wherin he plainly sheweth , that though the power of the presbytery be very great yet in things of greatest moment , as censures and elections , the people if they have any thing to counsell or object , have liberty to bring it in ; and afterwards matters are to be concluded when they have bin heard speake , and have given their consent , for which liberty and power of the people , he bringeth these scriptures , chro. . . acts . . . . cor. . . & cor. . . . zanchius speaking of that question , per quos exerceri debet excommunicatio , answers thus , nempe per ecclesia● , seu per ministros ecclesiae nomine , eoque et cum consensu totius ecclesiae promissio illa , quaecunque ligaveritis , ad totam ecclesiam est facta , ergo &c. praeterea apostolus hoc expressius declaravit , cor. . congregatis vobis , &c. alloquebatur autem totam ecclesiam . patres idem docent : cyprianus ad cornelium rom. episcopum seribit se multum laborasse apud plebem , ut par daretur lapsis p●enitentibus : si ergo non erat unius episcopi cum suo presbyterio solvere quempiam , sed requirebatur plebis eoque totius ecclesiae consensus : ergo neque ligari quispiam poterat , id est excommunicari , sine totius ecclesiae consensu . augustinus etiam contra donatistas ait , supersedendum esse excommunicatione quando tota plebs laborant eodem merbo , quid ita ? causam adfert , quia inquit , non assentientur excommunicationi . &c. satis aperte docet tunc temporis non solitum fuisse excommunicationem ferri in quempiam sine totius ecclesiae consensu ; et ratio est in promptu , quae enim adomnes pertinent eum consensu omnium fieri debent : ergo sine totius ecclesiae consensu excommunicari nemo debet . and then comparing the government of the church , to the roman common-wealth which had the dictators , the senate and the quirites , and shewing that the church government in respect of christ is a monarchy , in respect of the presbyters an aristocratie , and in respect of the people a democratie , he concludes thus , in rebus igitur gravissimis , quae ad totum corpus pertinent , uti est excommunicatio , sine consensu et authoritate totius ecclesiae nihil fieri debet , de redempt , in prae c. . pag. . &c. calvins words are these , cyprianus cum meminit per quos suo tempore exerceretur ( viz. potestas jurisdictionis ) adjungere solet totum clerum episcopo , sed . libi quoque demonstrat , sic praefuisse clerum ipsum , ut plebs inter●m à cognitione non excluderetur , sic enim scribit ; ab initio episcopatus mei statui sine cleri consilio & plebis consensu nihil agere , instit. . . c. . sect. . and againe , hoc addo , illam esse legitimam in excommunicando homine progressionem quam demonstrat paulus , si non soli seniores seorsim id faciant , sed conscia & approbante ecclesia , in eum scilicet modum , ut plebis multitudo non regat actionem , sed observet , ut testis & custos , ne quid per libidinem à paucis geratur , instit . l. . c. . sect. . those ministers that penned the christian and modest offer of disputation , doe say , that the pastor and elders that exercise ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , ought not to performe any maine and materiall ecclesiasticall act , without the free consent of the congregation , in propos . . the refuter of doctor downams sermon for the superiority of diocesan bishops , is plaine and full also in this point , in part . of his reply p. , . where answering doctor downam , that counted it schismaticall novelty , that the forme of the church government should be holden in part to be democrattcall , and that his refuter for so holding was a brownist or anabaptist ; he not onely proves the power of the people from the scripture , and delivers his owne judgement , that the ecclesiasticall government is of a mixt forme , compounded of all three estates ; but for the same tenent , and that the church government is in part democraticall or popular , he alledgeth the testimonies of the centuries , of illyricus , of doctor fulke . doctor willet , cyprian , augustine , p. martyr , dr whitaker , and others : master baines his judgement we heard before in the former question . vrsinus speaking of that question . quibus commissa est potestas clavium ▪ hath these words : quibus denunciatio verbi divini delegata est , iisdem & potestas illa clavium ; quae verò denunciatio fit in ecclesiastica disciplina est totius ecclesie , ad totam enim ecclesiam pertinet disciplina & jurisdictio spiritualis , sed alio modo fit illa denunciatio in verbi divini ministerio , quam in ecclesiae judicio . and then telling how this denunciation is done in the ministery , and by the ministers of the word , he comes to declare how it is done in church censures : in ecclesiastico judicio ( saith he ) gratiae & irae dei non fit denunciati . ab uno aliquo privatim ▪ sed à tota ecclesia aut nomine totius ecclesiae ' ab its qui ad hoc delecti sunt communi omnium consensu . and a little after answering objections brought against the use of excommunication , he hath these words : potest concedi quod christus non intelligat presbyterium ( viz. in that place matth. . tell the church ) sed propriè sumat vocabulum ecclesiae ante christum jdaicae● , post christum christianae : sed in ecclesiae jurisdictione oportet aliquem esse ordinem , aliquos oportet esse constitutos ab ecclesia , alioquin esset 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and speaking of that question , quis ordo servari debeat in exercenda clavium potestate ( he saith ) principalis pars in excommunicatione est denunciatio , qua &c. atque haec denunciatio qua quis excommunicatur non est penes ministrum ecclesiae , sed penes ipsam ecclesiam , & ejus nomine fit , quia mandatum hoc à christo datum est ecclesiae ; nam ipse ait expressè , dic ecclesiae . and finally , speaking of abuses to be avoided , and cautions to be observed in excommunication , he hath such words in the fourth proposition , or rule there annext , as doe declare it to be his judgement ▪ that if excommunication should be passed by a few , without the consent of the whole church , such proceedings would be both oligarchy and tyranny : attentem expendatum ( saith he ) à toto presbyterio , probetur ab ecclesia , non suscipiatur privat â authoritate , ne ministerium ecclesiae convertatur in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & tyrannidem , in his comment upon the catechisme , in the place de clavibus regni coelorum . pareus delivering certaine porismata or , conclusions concerning excommunication , hath this for the fifth of them , quòd excommunicandi potestas non fit penes unum episcopum , vel paucos pastores , sed penes ecclesiam ; proindelicet pastores & presbyteri ordinis cau ▪ â primas habeant partes circa censuras ecclesiasticas , & per eos h● administrentur ; quod tamen citra consensum ecclesiae pastores ad exclusionem proced●re non debeant , alibi demonstravimus in cor. . and a little after , answering stapletons objections that would have the power of excommunication to be in the bishop alone ▪ he brings in the case of cyprian , who could not absolve the lapsi without the people : cyprianus ( saith hee ) ad cornelium romanum episcopum scribit s● multum apua plebem laborasse ut pax daretur lapsis , quam si per se dare potuisset , non erat cur adeo in persuadenda plebe se fatigasset . so that in the judgement of pareus and cyprian all power of church government was not in the presbyters , but some power was in the people . musculus , although he thinke there be little use of excommunication and church discipline , where there is a christian magistrate , yet when it is to be used , he would not have the people excluded from having any hand therein , as may appeare by those words of his , where he speakes de disciplina ecclesiastica : hisce de rebus non constituet minister suo proprio arbitratu , sed erit ad institutionem earum director , & adhibebit suffragia & consensum sue plebis , ne quicquam invitae ecclesie imponatur . denique curabit ut plebs ipsa viros graves , timentes dei , ac boni testimonii deligat , quorum curâ & vigilantiâ disciplina ecclesiastica administratur , & si quid gravioris momenti accidat , ad ipsam ecclesiam referatur : loc. com . de ministris verbi dei , in tit . de potestate ministrorum p. . and afterward , in the latter end of that place , comming to speake of the deposing of unworthy ministers , he hath these words : quaeritur hic per quos disciplina ista administrari debeat ? respondeo , primum ecclesiae populus potestatem habens elegendi dignum ministrum , habet etiam ( teste cypriano ) potestatem indignum recusandi : deinde qui judices sunt censoresque morum in ecclesia ex officio tenentur redargnere peccantem ministrum , si duobus aut tribus testibus fide dignis coram ecclesia dei convictus fuerit . tertiò , iidem cum consensu & suffragiis plebis deponent ministrum , vel ad ltempus , vel in universum , vel excommunicabunt tandem juxta quaitatem peccati vel defectus illius , p. . doctor ames saith , potestas hujus disciplinae ( viz. of excommunication ) quoad jus ipsum pertinet ad ecclesiam illam in communi , cujus membrum est peccator : ad illos enim pertinet ejicere , ad quos pertinet primò admittere , & corporis totius interest ex aequo membrorum conservatio vel amputatio , cum ecclesi● idcirco consensu ( eoque magistratu non permittente tantum , sed & approbante & constituente ) est executioni mandanda . medul . theol. l. . c. . sect. . lastly , master parker observing a distinction betweene power , and the dispencing of power ; that the one is in the church and the other in the presbyters , hath these words : neque tamen dispensatio omnis , omneque exercitum est penes rectores solos , sed juxta temperamentum formae partim aristocratice , partim democraticae de manda●ae rectoribus suis ecclesi● , que ipsa per se obire satis commodè nequit , retinente vero dispensationem illam illudque exercitium quod & ipsi convenit , & pertinet ad ejus lignitatem , authoritatem , & libertatem à christo donatam . posit . eccles . l. . c. . and elsewhere he saith , imo vero est & publica clavium tractatio , quam plebes christiana in unum coacta , sine ullo acrilegio administrat . polit. eccles . l. c. p. . these testimonies we thought good to produce in this question , lest any should thinke that to give any church power of government to the people , were some singular opinion of ours , swerving from the truth , and disallowed by orthodox writers of the reformed churches ; and no doubt but besides these here cited , the same is taught by ●thers also , whom now we spare to alledge , intending onely ●hese few for a taste instead of many . . and therefore when this question demandeth whe●her we give the exercise of all church power of government to the whole congregation , or to the presbyters thereof alone ? our answer is , neither thus nor so , neither all to ●he people excluding the presbytery , nor all to the presbytery excluding the people . for this were to make the government of the church either meerly democraticall , or meerly aristocraticall , neither of which we believe it ought to be . . whereas this question demandeth to know what acts of government the presbyters may doe more then any other may doe , and to have those particular acts mentioned : this seemeth to us to be a very large demand , for who is able to mention all the particular acts of government , which any one governour may performe in his time , especially if he continue long in his place ? but if your meaning in this point be not of the individualls , but of the species or kinds , yet even there also it is much to require the particular mentioning of all ; yet to give you a taste take these . the calling of assemblies and dismissing of the same againe ; the ordinary preaching of the word , which is done by way of office ; and being the peoples mouth unto god in prayer ; the dispensing of baptisme , and the lords supper : the permitting of any to speak in an orderly way ; and againe enjoining silence : the putting of matters to vote , and pronouncing of sentence in the censure of offendors , or receiving in of penitents after their fall , and blessing of the people in the name of the lord ; these are acts of church government , which the presbyters may doe according to the word and another member may not do without breach of order and presuming above his place . . it is also here demanded , what the presbyters may do without the particular consent of the rest ? to which wee answer , that when they doe what the lord christ ( whose stewards they are ) by his word requires of them in their places , this should not be without the consent of the rest , ●or the rest of the church ought to consent thereto : christs sheep ought to heare his voice , iohn . . and to obey them that speak unto them in his name , heb. . . and if any man should in such case willfully dissent , the church ought to deale with such an one , for not consenting to the will and waies of christ , or else they shall all be guilty of the sinfull dissent of such an one . so that this passage ( if it be meant of presbyters doing their duty ) without the consent of the people , goes upon a supposall ( in respect of the people ) of that which never ought to be , neither are wee to suppose but that there may be rule when the elders and brethren doe not dissent nor are divided one from another : the multitude of them that believed in the first christian church at ierusalem , were of one heart and of one soule , a l. . . yet none needs to doubt , but there was rule and government amongst them , when yet their agreement was such , that the apostles and flders did nothing without the full consent of the rest . it is a miserable mistake either to thinke that in the church of christ the elders and brethren must needs dissent one from another , or if they all consent , that then there can be no ruling but against the peoples minde . they were none of the best shepheards to their flocks unto whom the lord saith , with force and rigour have you ruled them . ezech. . . as for doing any thing in their places ▪ which the word of christ , the lord and master of the church , commandeth not , nor alloweth such things ▪ they neither ought to do nor ought the church to consent unto them if they should ; for that were to make themselves partakers of their rulers sinnes , and so to bring judgement upon them all , as when the priests did wickedly beare rule , and the people loved to have it so , ieremiah . . . lastly , this question demandeth how , and over whom in those acts of government , which are done by the elders more then by other members , or without the consent of the rest , the presbyters doe rule in propriety of speaking more then the rest of the congregation ? wherein are sundry particulars . . how they rule ? whereunto wee answer , that neither the elders nor the people doe rule with lordly and princely rule , and soveraigne authority and power ; for that is proper to christ over his church : who is the onely lord , cor. . . and king and lawgiver that is able to save and to destroy , isa . . . psal . . luk. . . jam. . . the elders are forbidden to be lords over gods heritage , pet. . . or to exercise authority as the kings and princes of the earth doe , matth. . , . luk. . , . they are not so to rule , as to doe what themselves please , but they must do whatsoever christ hath commanded , mat. . . mr. baine sheweth from these words there are diversities of ministeries , but one lord , cor. . . that it is contrary to the scripture that there should be in the church more lords then one : ( and saith he ) look as great lords have in their houses ministers of more and lesse honour , from the steward to the scullery , but no lord-like or master-like power in any besides themselves : so is it with christ and his church , which is the house of god , wherein hee is the lord , apostles and others having more or lesse honourable services , but no masterlike power over the meanest of their fellow servants : on ephes . . . p. . and elsewhere he saith , no minister of the word hath any power but ministeriall in the church , the power of the apostles themselves and evangelists is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts . tim. . yea such a service as doth make the ministers having it so servants , that they are no way lords ; many ministers , one lord ; we preach christ iesus the lord ; our selves your servants for iesus sake , dioces . tryall . q. . p. . the elders are to rule as stewards , mat. . . luke . . as shepheards , act. . . as captaines , guides , leaders or overseers , by going before the people , and shewing them the word and way of the lord , tim. . . . & . . thes . . . h●b . . . . how they rule more then the rest of the congregation do ? whereto the answer is , that this is more then the rest of the congregation doe in these acts , even as acting is more then consenting , and as it is more to be a steward over of the house then one of the household , or to be a guide or leader , then to be guided or led . . over whom they doe rule ? even over the whole church in generall , and every member in particular , even all the flocke over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers , act. . . pet. . . the rule is expresse and plaine that women ought not to speake in the church , but to be in silence , cor. . . tim. , . and therefore they ought not to vote in church matters ; besides voting imports some kind of government , and authority and power : now it is not government and authority , but subjection and obedience which belongs unto women , by the rule , and so is the practice of women amongst us . church matters ought not to be determined meerly by multitude or plurality of votes , but by rules from the word of christ , whose will ▪ ( and not the will either of the major , or minor part of men , ) is the onely rule and law for churches , iam. . . isa . . . mat. . , . exod. . . . . for our practice among us , the major part of the church , yea usually the whole church doth consent and agree in one minde , and one judgement , and so gives a joint unanimus vote ; and the rule requires it should be so rom. . . and the example of the primitive apostolike churches , where things were carried ( nor meerly by the major or minor part , the rest dissenting , but ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or with one accord . act. . . & ● . & . . & ● . . & . . so that in this sence , matters with us are carried according to the vote of the major part , that is , with the joint consent of the whole church , but yet because it is the minde of christ . but it may be your meaning is in this question to take it for granted that the churches will be divided in their votes , and to know what course we take at such times : but if churches lay aside their owne affections , and give attendance to the rule , and be ( as all churches ought to be ) men of humble spirits , and sincere , and withall depend on christ their head and king for guidance , in their worke , we know no necessity of such a supposall , that they must needs be divided in their votes , especially considering what promises he hath made unto his church , of godly concord and agreement among themselves , and of his owne gracious presence in the midst of them , ier. . . zeph. . . mat. . . which promifes we believe are not in vaine . neverthelesse , we deny not but through the corruptions & distempers of men , some dissention may arise for a time in a true church , as it was in the church at corinth : and if any such thing fall out among us ( which we blesse god is not often ) then before matters be put to the vote , our course of proceeding is after this manner . if the elders and major part of the church consent in one conclusion , yet if any brother dissent , he is patiently heard , and his alledgements of scripture or good reasons are duely weighed : if it appeare that his judgement is according to the rule , the whole church will readily yeeld , though before they were otherwise minded . but if it appeare they who dissent from the major part , are factiously or partially carried , the rest labour to convince them of their error by the rule , if they yeeld , the consent of all comfortably concurreth in the matter ; if they still continue obstinate , they are admonished , and so standing under censure , their vote is nullified . if they without obstinate opposition of the rest , doe dissent still , yet referre the matter to the judgement of the major part of the body they are not wont to proceed to sentence ( if the matter be weighty as in excommunication ) till the reasons on both sides have bin duly pondered , and all brotherly means have been used for mutuall information and conviction . if the difference still continue the sentence ( if the matter be weighty ) is still demurred , even till other churches have been consulted with , who in such a case will send their elders to communicate their apprehensions and light , which they do not pro imperio , binding the church to rest in their dictates but by propounding their grounds from the scripture . these courses with gods presence and blessing ( which usually accompanieth his ordinance ) faithfully taken and followed , will prevaile either to settle one unanimous consent in the thing ▪ or at least to preserve peace in the church by the dissentors submission to the judgement of the major part , though they see not light sufficient to warrant them to act in the businesse : such subjection is according to the rule , ephes . . . pet. . . if the church or the elders should refuse the testimony of other churches according to god , they will ( after brotherly admonition and due patient waiting ) deny them the right hand of fellowship , till they shall give better evidence of their subjection to the gospel of christ . but thanks be to god we never had occasion of such withdrawing communion of one church from another , though now and then ( as need requireth ) churches send to other churches for their counsell and advice . meanes to preserve the churches in unitie and verity , and to reforme any that may erre , thankes bee to god we have sundry . first , the holy scriptures , which are a perfect rule for doctrine and practise , tim. . . pet. . . psal . . , . secondly , the ministery appointed by christ , viz. of pastors , teachers , elders , and deacons , ephes . . , . cor . . tim. . . . tim. . , . &c and vers . . and in both these we have frequently holden forth unto us the commandement of god , wherein he requires churches to bee of one mind and one judgement in the truth , cor. . . & . . . ephes . . . & phil. . . & . . . and his promise to lead his people into all truth , and holy agreement therein , jer. . . isa , &c. zeph. . . ioh. . . with many motives and rules from scripture for continuing in the said truth and love . now faith makes use of these promises and submits to these precepts and exhortations , and so both these being mixt with faith are profitable meanes by the blessing of god for that end aforesaid , heb. . . as these churches have found by experience , for these yeares since our comming into this countrey : and any other meanes sanctified of god for the aforesaid end , we hope we should be glad with thankfull hearts to improve and make use of as the lord shall help . as for a platforme of doctrine and discipline which you mention , as one meanes hereunto , if thereby you meane no more but a confession of faith of the holy doctrine which is according to godlinesse , we know nothing but it may be lawfull and expedient in some cases for any particular person that hath received the gift to doe it ; or any church , or a●l the churches in any christian common-wealth , to compile and set forth such a platforme . the practise of those churches , whose confessions are contained in that booke called the harmony of confessions , as also of master robinson at leiden , and others of our nation in other parts in the low-countries , who have published such platformes , we see no reason to condemne or disallow : neither count we it unlawfull or inexpedient for any church or churches , or person or persons in the countrey , upon just occasion to doe the like . but if your meaning be of a platforme to be imposed by authority upon others , or our selves , as a binding rule of faith and practice , so that all men must believe and walke according to that platforme , without adding , altering , or omitting ▪ then we are doubtfull whether such platformes be lawfull or expedient . for if the doctrine contained therein doe in any particular swerve from the doctrine contained in scripture then the imposing of them is so far forth unlawfull ; and if they be according to it , then they may seeme needlesse , in as much as the forme of wholesome words contained in scripture is sufficient . which reason against such platformes , makes nothing against sermons or preaching , though sermons must be according to the doctrine contained in scripture , because preaching is an ordinance of god and therefore not needlesse ; which we cannot say of such platformes . besides , as they are not necessary , so they may be a snare unto men , and a dangerous temptation of attending more to the forme of doctrine delivered from the authority of the church , and the imposers , then to the examining thereof according to the rule of scripture ; and so their faith may by this meanes stand in the wisedome or will of man , rather then in the power of god , as if men had dominion over their faith ; which things ought not so to be , cor. . . & . . ver . christians have liberty from god to search the scriptures , and try all things , and hold fast that which is good , act. . . ioh. . . thess . . . but the foresaid imposing of platformes and confessions compiled by men , doth seeme to abridge them of that liberty ; and if it be any meanes of unity , yet it may be a dangerous hinderance of some verity and degree of truth as binding men to rest in their former apprehensions and knowledge , without liberty , to better their judgement in those points , and shutting the doore against any further light which god may give to his best servants , and most discerning , beyond what they saw at first : and therefore we doubt such imposed platformes are not lawfull , or at least wise not expedient . the consociation of churches into classes and synods we hold to be lawfull and in some cases necessary ; as namely in things that are not peculiar to one church , but common to them all : and likewise when a church is not able to end any matter that concernes onely themselves , then they are to seeke for counsell and advice from neighbour churches ; as the church at antioch did send unto the church at ierusalem , acts . . the ground and use of classes and synods , with the limitations therein to be observed , is summarily laid downe by doctor ames , medul . theol. l . c. . sect. . unto whom we do wholly consent in this matter . but when you speake of doing no weighty matter without the consent and counsell of a classes , we dare not so far restraine the particular churches as fearing this would be to give the c●asses an undue power and more then belongs unto them by the word ; as being also an abridgment of that power which christ hath given to every particular church , to transact their owne matters ( whether more or lesse weighty ) among themselves ( if so be they be able ) without such necessary dependence upon classes , as we have shewed before in answer to q. . sect. . & . of that answere . and master parker testifieth , that in genevah , and in the low-countries , where they have some use of classes , yet it cannot bee said that their particular congregations are absque potestate omni in rebus grandtoribus , ut in excommunicatione ; the particular churches are not without power in the more weighty matters , as in excommunication , polit. eccles . li. . c. . sect. . p. . and master baine sheweth the same , saying , they have power of governing themselves , but for greater edification voluntarily confederate , not to use or exercise their power but with mutuall communion , one asking the counsell and consent of the other , dioces . triall q. . p. . and a little after geneva made his consociation , not as if the prime churches were imperfect , and to make one church by this union ; but because though they were intire churches , and had the power of churches , yet they needed support in exercising of it , &c. which is the very same that wee said before in q. viz. that all churches have right of government within themselves , but some had need of counsell and advice of others , because they are of lesse ability to transact their owne matters of themselves . and master parker in the same place afore alledged in the page immediately precedent , clearly sheweth against doctor downham , doctor sutcliffe , and others , that those particular congregations which have presbyters of their owne , with power within themselves , are the most perfect , and are precisely formed juxta formam illam quae in verbo patefacta est , according to that forme which is revealed in the word ; whereas others which have not the like are more defective and imperfect . and if this be so , then to binde churches to do no weighty matters without the counsell and consent of classes , were to blinde them to bee imperfect . and for synods , if they have such power that their determination shall binde the churches to obedience ( as you speake ) it is more then we yet understand . indeed bellarmine makes bishops in a councell or synod to be judges ; and that standum sit corum sententiae , quia ipsi sic statuerunt , quomodo statur sententia praetoris in causis politicis ; that is , either to obey or suffer : de concil . & eccles . l. . c. . but the orthodoxe writers do not consent to him therein ; for in their judgement the sentence of a councell or synod is onely inquisitio quaedam & dictio sententiae ministrato●ia & limitata , ita ut tantum valeat decretum concilii quantum valeat ejus ratio , as doctor ames hath it in his bellarminus enervatus , upon that place of bellarmine : that is , the sentence of a synod is onely a certaine enquiring and giving of sentence by way of ministery , and with limitation ; so that the decree of the councell hath so much force as there is force in the reason of it . and junius expresseth it thus ; sententia concilii per se ipsam suasionis non coactionis est judicium ministeriale , non authoritatem , per se necessitatemque adferens , animadvers . upon bellarmine in that place : that is , the sentence of a councell is of it selfe onely of advice , not of compulsion or constraint , and brings with it a judgement ministeriall , not authority of it selfe nor necessity ; whereunto we doe wholly consent . as for that clause in this question , that the determination of a synod should binde if not to obedience , yet to peaceable suffering , we know not what sufferings those should be : for punishments in purse or person , in respect of the body or outward man , are not to be inflicted by synods , but by civill magistrates ; and church-censures of excommunication , or the like , belong to the particular church of which an offendor is a member , out of the communion whereof a man cannot be cast , but onely by his owne church . onely christ hath authority to make lawes for the government of each particular church , and the members thereof , and h●s lawes doe oblige all the members , and may not be omitted without sinne , jam. . . jsa . . . ● mat. . , . ●ct . . . but for particular churches , they have no power to make lawes for themselves or their members , but to observe and see all their members observe those laws which christ hath given and commanded mat. . . deu● . . . iohn . . if any church shall presume further , they goe beyond their commission , and in such case their ecclesiasticall lawes may be omitted without sinne , nay it would be sinne to be subject to them col. . . to walke after them , hos . . . to be such servants of men as not to stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , . or . . . gal. . . the outward calling of a minister consisteth properly and essentially in election by the people , as doctor ●mes sheweth , cas . cons . l. . c. . q. . and this election is so essentiall , that without it the ministers calling ( if you speak of an ordinary church officer ) is a nullity ; and therefore mornay , that learned noble man of france , approveth that saying of chrysostome , election by the people is so necessary , as that without it there is neither altar , nor church , nor priest-hood , where ( omitting other things ) it appeares to be their judgement , that without election by the people , the ministery is void ; and mornay addeth of his owne , concerning the bishops amongst the papists , that they were nullá plane 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nulla proinde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for the one presupposed the other , no imposition seeing without election , in his booke of the church , c. . p. . yet sometimes the peoples acceptance and approbation afterward may supply the want of election at the first , as iacobs after consent and acceptance of lea , made her to be his wife , though hee chose her not at the first . and by this we hold the calling of many ministers in england may be excused , who at first came into their places without the consent of the people . if ordination by imposition of hands , were of the essence of a ministers calling then in those churches , where such ordination is not used , their ministers should want a lawfull calling , which were an hard sentence against many ministers in scotland , where ( as is reported ) this ordination is not thought necessary , and therefore used or omitted indifferently . wee looke at ordination by imposition of hands , as a solemne investing of men into their places , whereto they have right and calling by election , like to the inauguration of a magistrate in the common-wealth , yet necessary by divine institution . tim. . . but not so necessary as if the ministers calling were a nullity without it . essentia ipsa vocationis , in electione legitima consistit ; ordinatio pendet ab electione , sicut coronatio principi● , aut magistratus inauguratio , ab electione , successione , aut aequivalente aliqua constitutione . ames bellarm. enervat . lib. . de clericis , c. . sect. . that is , the essence of a ministers calling consists in lawfull election , ordination depends upon election , as the coronation of a prince , or the inauguration of a magistrate , depends upon election , succession , or some other constitution aequivalent . and againe , ritus impositionis manuum non est absolute necessarius ad esse pastoris , non magis quam coronatio ad esse regis , aut celebratio nuptiarum ad earum esse . sect . . that is , the right of imposition of hands is not absolutely necessary to the essence of a pastor , no more then the coronation to the essence of a king , or the celebration of marriage to the essence thereof . ordination of ministers is not a private action but publique , and ought to be done publiquely in the assembly of the church , and therefore the persons that performe it , ( whether they be ordinary church officers or no ) cannot in any congruity of speech be called meere private persons in that action . . the church that hath no officers , may elect officers or ministers unto themselves , therefore it may also ordaine them ; which argument dr. whitaker useth as wee shall see anon . if it have commission and power from christ for the one , and that the greater , it hath it also for the other which is the lesser : now ordination is lesse then election , and depends upon it as a necessary antecedent by divine institution , by vertue of which it is justly administred , being indeed nothing else but the admission of a person lawfully elected into his office , or a putting of him into possession thereof , whereunto he had right before by election , as was said before in answer to the precedent question . . if a church have ministers or elders before , then this ordination is to be performed by the elders of the church , and in their assemblie . tim. . . as also many other acts are to be performed by them . . this ordination thus performed by the elders for the church , may fitly be called the act of the whole church , as it is the whole man that seeth , that heareth , that speaketh , when these acts are instrumentally performed by the eye , the eare , and the tongue , in which sense master parker saith , ecclesia per alios docet , baptisa●que , polit. eccles . l. . c. . p. . . but when a church hath no officers , but the first officers themselves are to be ordained , then this ordination by the rite of imposing of hands may be performed for the church by the most prime grave and able men from among themselves , as the church shall depute hereunto , as the children of israel did lay their hands upon the levites , numb . . . now all the congregation could not impose all their hands upon them together , all their hands could not possibly reach them together , and therefore it must needs be that some of the congregation in the name of the whole body performed this rite : and as this scripture sheweth , that the people may in some cases lay their hands upon church officers , ( for the levites were such , upon whom the children of israel did lay their hands ) so let it be considered , whether these reasons doe not further make it manifest . . men that are in no office may elect , therefore they may ordaine , because ordination is nothing else but the execution of election . . if it were not so then one of these would follow , either that the officers must minister without any ordination at all , or else by vertue of some former ordination received in some other church or else they must be ordained by some other minister or ministers of some other church , that were ordained afore them , and so the ministery to be by succession . but the first of these is against the scripture , tim. . . heb. . . and the second were to establish the popish opinion of the indeleble character , imprinted as they imagine in their sacrament of holy orders . whereas for ought we can discerne . if when they are called to office in any church , they have need of a new election , notwithstanding their former election into another church then they have by the same ground need of a new ordination , for ordination depends upon election : if their former election be ceased , their former ordination is ceased also ; and they can no more minister by vertue of a former ordination unto another church , then by vertue of a former election . and for the third , we doe not understand what authority ordinary officers can have to ordaine ministers to such a church , of which themselves are not so much as members besides at some times , namely at the first reformation after the times of popery , there were no others to be had but from the pope , and his bishops and priests . now it were a pittifull case , if the sheep must have no shepherd but such as are appointed to them by the wolves , that is , if gods people might not have ministers , but onely from the popish bishops . this were to say , either that the ministers of antichrist , must , or may ordaine ministers to the church of christ , or else that the popish bishops are true ministers of christ . and if protestants thinke it necessary , that their first ministers should be ordained by the popish bishops , it is no marvell if the papists do thereupon believe that their church is the true church , and their bishops true ministers . such a scandall is it unto them to maintaine this personall succession of the ministery . but god doth so much abhorre antichrist , that hee would not have his people to seek to him , nor his priests to ordaine christs ministers , as he would not take of babilon a stone for a corner , nor a stone for a foundation , ier. . . . it is thus in civill corporations and cities , the major , bayliffe , or other chiefe officer elect , is at his entrance and inauguration to receive at the hands of his predecessors the sword or keyes of the city , or to have some other solemne ceremonie by him performed unto him yet if either there be no former as at the first or that the former be dead or upon necessity absent , when his successor entreth , then is this ceremony and worke performed by some other , the fittest instrument ; neither need that city borrow any officer of another city , neither could he entermeddle there without usurpation , though both the corporations have the same charter under the same king. and so it is in this spirituall corporation or city , the church of god. . that this point may seeme the lesse strange to you , we pray you consider with us a little further the nature of this ordination , and then wee will adde the testimonies of some eminent protestant writers in this case , that you may see this is not any singular opinion of ours . for the former , some indeed have so highly advanced this ordination , that they have preferred it farre above preaching the word , ministring the sacraments , and prayer , making it and the power of excommunication , the two incommunicable prerogatives of a bishop above an ordinary minister ; yet the scripture teacheth no such thing , but rather the contrary , for when the apostles were sent out by christ , there was no mention of ordination in that commission of theirs , but only of teaching & preaching & baptising mat. . , . mark. . , . if ordination of ministers had bin such a speciall worke , there would belike have bin some mention of it in their commission . and certaine it is , the apostles counted preaching the word their principall worke , and after it prayer , and the ministring of the sacraments , act. . . cor. . . if ordaining of ministers had bin in their account so prime a worke , it may seem paul would rather have tarried in creete to have ordained elders there then have gone himselfe about preaching , seaving titus for the other , tit. . by all which it appeares , that ordaining of ministers is not such an eminent work as that it is to be preferred above preaching the word , and ministring the sacraments , and therefore to be performed by them that are superiours unto ordinary ministers ; preaching and ministring the sacraments , being left as inferiour workes unto ministers , of an inferiour ranke , as they would have it , that stand for the superiority of docesan bishops ; neither is it equall unto those other workes afore mentioned , that onely he that doth those , may performe this other also , as some others thinke ; but being nothing else in the true nature and use of it but the execution and accomplishment and confirmation of election , it may bee performed by the people of god , that yet have no officers , even as election may upon which it doth depend . . lastly , let these sayings of some protestant writers of singular note , either for holinesse , or learning , or both , be well considered of . master perkins saith , succession of doctrine alone is sufficient ; for this rule must bee remembred , that the power of the keyes ( that is , of order and jurisdiction ) is tyed by god and annexed in the new testament to doctrine . if in turkey , or america , or elsewhere , the gospel should be received by the counsell and perswasion of private persons , they need not send into europe for consecrated ministers , but they have power to choose their owne ministers from within themselves ; because where god gives the word he gives the power also ; upon gal. . . doctor willet saith , whereas bellarmine objecteth that as in the old law the priesthood went by carnall generation and lineall descent from aaron , so in the new it must bee derived by succession from the apostles ; we answere , first , that our saviour christ and his apostles could shew no lineall descent from aaron , neither had their ordination from his successors , and yet were the true pastors of the church . and a little after , this we say further , that both before christ there were true pastors and prophets , which were not ordained by the priests of aaron ; and since christ , that received not their ordination successively from the apostles . first , in the old law , when the ordinary priesthood was corrupted , god raised up prophets from other tribes that received not from the priests their ordination and allowance : such an one was amos , who was among heardsmen , and was made a prophet as he was gathering wilde black-berries . after the same manner in the corrupt times of the gospel , the lord hath raised up faithfull ministers to his church , that could shew no succession from the degenerate clergy . and a little after , if paul were made an apostle without the ordination of the lawfull apostles much more may the lord raise up new pastors to his church without ordination from the usurpers of the apostles : synops . papism . contr . . q. . of succession error . p. . mor●●y his words are full and plaine to the same purpose . viz although some of our men in such a corrupt state of the church , as we have seene in our time , without waiting for calling or allowance of them who under the title of pastors oppressed the lords flock , did at first preach without this formall calling , and afterward were chosen and called to the holy ministey by the churches which they had taught ; yet this ought to seeme no more strange , then if in a free common-wealth the people without waiting either for the consent , or for the voices of those that tyrannize over them , should ( according to the lawes ) make choice of good and wise magistrates , such ( happily ) as god would serve his turne of for their deliverance , and for the publike restitution . and hereof wee have examples , first , in the acts , where wee read that philip , who was but a deacon , preacheth in samaria without the calling of the apostles , yea without their privity , who for all that gave their allowance to his worke . in frumentius , carried upon another occasion into the indies , a meere lay-man , who yet there preacheth the gospel , and a good while after is there made bishop . in those of whom origen speaketh , that shall come by chance into a city where never any christian was borne , shall there begin to teach , and labour to instruct the people in the faith , whom the people shall afterward make their pastors and bishops : and besides , in all the scriptures there is not one place that bindeth the ministery of the gospel to a certaine succession ; but contrariwise the scripture sheweth , that god would send two speciall witnesses to prophesie against antichrist : of the church chap. . p. . doctor whitaker answering bellarmine , that would prove protestants to have no church , because their ministers had no ordination by bishops , saith , that as sometimes bishops were chosen by the clergy and sometimes by the people , so the same may be said of ordination , viz. that it was sometimes by the clergy and sometimes by the people ; and then addeth , quod si vocationem corum episcoporum legitimam fuisse concedat bellarminus , de ordinatione minus laboramus . qui enim habent authoritatem vocandi , iidem etiam authoritatem ordinandi habent , si legitima ordinatio non possit impetrari : nam ordinatio sequitur vocationem ; qui vocatur , i● quasi in sui muneris possessionem mittitur : de eccles . q. . cap. p. . finally , doctor ames doth also witnesse the same in many places of his workes : for a taste take these few sayings of his in this case , viz. ad totam ecclesiam semper pertinet ordinatio , quoad jus , vim , virtutem illam quam habet in ministro ecclesiae constituendo ; sicut celebratio matrimonii vim aut virtutem omnem acceptam refert legitimo consensui conjugum : ecclesie statu ( ministerio & ordine deficiente ) collapso vel corrupto , à plebe etiam actus iste ordinationis , quatenus necessarius est ad ministri constitutionem in tali casu , potest legitimè exerceri , bellarm . enervat . lib. . de clericis , cap. de ordinatione . and againe , a little after ; episcopos veros à veris episcopis ordinariè dicimus ordinand●s esse , sed nomine ecclesiae cui ordinantur . and againe , a little after , potestas ordinandi est aliqu● modo originaliter in tota ecclesia , sicut potestas videndi originaliter est in toto animali , quamvis formaliter & subjectivè sit in oculo tantùm ; tum etiam ordinationis exercitium pendet à tota ecclesia , sicut actus videndi hoc vel illud determinatè pendet non ab oculo sed à toto . and againe , quamvis in ecclesia benè constituta non debeat aliis quam presbyteris ordinandi manus mandari ; in defectu tamen idoneorum presbyterorum potest non presbyteris mandari . and yet againe in the next place , si concedatur hoc , quòd ex ordine nemo possit esse legitimus pastor , nisi sit à legitimo pastore & episcopo ordinatus : in ordinis tamen defectu , cùm jam primò instaurari debet ordo , non potest●tam accuratè observari , atque adeo extraordinarium aliquid tum potest intervenire sine ullo vitio . these words you see are punctuall and plaine , that the power of ordaining ministers is originally in the church ; and that though when a church hath presbyters , the act of ordaining is to be done by those presbyters ; yet in defect of such it may be performed by them that are no presbyters , lawfully , and without fault ; which is the case of our churches that are in their beginnings , and may be the case of any church when they come to be without officers , as by warre , pestilence , &c. it may come to passe . there are some things common to pastors with teachers ; as , that they are both officers of the church appointed by christ ; both elders or bishops to rule and feed the church , by labouring in the word and doctrine , act. tim. . . tit. . , . and therefore the name of pastour , in a generall sense may be given to them both , ier. . . as also the name of teacher , isa . . . as those names may also be given to apostles , in as much as they also are elders , pastors , teachers , to rule , to feed , to teach the church of god , pet. . . ioh. . . . tim. . . & . . . and if pastors and teachers be both of them church officers , to feed and rule the church ▪ by labouring in the word and doctrine , they must not do this without application of it to the consciences and states of the hearers , as god shall helpe them : for this application is one part of his worke , that is by his office to preach the word , without which the word is not handled in such a manner as it ought to be , tim. . . cor. . . luk. . . and many hearers need this , the word delivered in generall without application of it being to them as bread set before children in the whole loafe . and if both of them must labour in the word and doctrine , and not onely in a generall way , but with application , we see not but they may both of them administer the seales or sacraments , wherein there is a speciall application of the promises of the gospel , and the grace of christ therein , unto the faithfull and believing receivers . . and yet for all this community between them , they are not in propriety of speech the same officers , but distinct , and so the scripture speaketh of them ephes . . . for if a man would say their offices are confounded , because the same generall worke of preaching the word , and applying the same , belongs unto them both : by the same reason a man might say the offices of apostles and evangelists were confounded ; for both of them were to preach the word , with application of the same by doctrine , and seales ; and also that the ordinary pastors were the same office with them both , because hee also is to doe the same worke of preaching and applying : but an apostle is to feed , and rule , and teach , by way of doctrine and application , as an apostle ; an evangelist as an evangelist , and an ordinary pastor as an ordinary pastor , and therein lyes the difference : and wee may adde , a teacher as a teacher ; and therein is he distinguished both from the pastor , and from all other church officers , even as by the same they all are distinguished one from another , the same generall worke of doctrine and application being common to them all . . and for the teacher and pastor , the difference between them lyes in this , that the one is principally to attend upon points of knowledge and doctrine , though not without application ; and the other to points of practice , though not without doctrine : and therefore the one of them is called ▪ he that teacheth , and his worke is thus expressed , let him attend on teaching ; and the other , he that exhorteth , and his worke , to attend on exhortation , rom. . , . and the gift of the one is called a word of knowledge , and the gift of the other , a word of wisedome , cor. . . as experience also sheweth , that one mans gift is more doctrinall , and for points of knowledge ; and anothers more exhortatory , and for points of practise . it is not the manner of elders among us , whether ruling onely , or ruling and teaching also , to strive for authority or preheminence one above another ; as remembring what lesson our saviour taught his disciples , when they were at strife among them , which of them should be the greatest , luk. . , . &c. if diotrephes strive for preheminence ioh. , . verily we abhorre such striving , and by the grace of god respect one another as brethren . as for the peoples duty toward their elders , it is taught them plainly in that place , thes . . , . as also in that of tim. . let the elders that rule well bee counted worthy of double honour , specially they that labour in the word and doctrine ; and this word ( specially ) shewes them , that as they are to account all their elders worthy of double honour , so in speciall manner their teaching or preaching elders . these are answered in that which was sent the last yeare . we doe believe that every minister of the gospel ought to be maintained with sufficient and honourable maintenance , according to his need and occasions , in regard of his person , calling , charge of children and hospitality , so as he that preacheth the gospel may in all these respects live of the gospel , cor. . . gal . . tim. . . and this maintenance is not to be allowed as almes and courtesie , but as debt and duty , to bee paid according to the rule of justice ; the labourer is worthy of his wages , luk. . . which the apostle sheweth to be according to all lawes of nature , nations , moses and christ , cor. . but for setled and stinted maintenance , there is nothing done that way amongst us , except from yeare to yeare , because the conditions of ministers may vary , and of the church to which they doe belong : neither doe we know any such thing to be appointed by christ our lord , for the maintenance of the ministery in these dayes ; but this we know that the great mountaine burning with fire , cast into the sea upon the sounding of the second trumpet rev. . , . is applyed by some good writers to those times , when constantine brought setled endowments into the church , with ampla praedia ( as they are called ) are counted by some to bee no better then poyson to the church ; as the stories say that upon the fact of the good emperour a voice was heard , which said , hodie seminatum est virus in ecclesiam . and if those writers be not deceived which so expound that scripture ( as for our parts wee know not but they expound it truely ) then in as much as upon the casting of that mountaine into the sea , a third part of it became blood and a third part of living creatures dyed , and a third part of ships were destroyed , it may be truely gathered thence that the bringing in of setled endowments and eminent preferments into the church , hath been the corruption , and to some the destruction of such as lived by them , both church-officers and church-members . we doe not permit , and call upon ( such whom you call ) meere lay men , and private persons , neither being in the ministery nor intended to it , ordinarily to preach or prophecy publiquely , in or before the congregation , if by ordinarily , you meane frequently and usually . for where ordinary officers are not wanting to a church , and neither detained from their worke by sicknesse , nor just absence , we thinke it most meet to offer our sacrifice to god and to the church of our best gifts . but yet if you oppose ordinary to extraordinary , we doe confesse that some private members ( to wit such as are eminently fitted with knowledge and utterance , being also men of humble spirits , and holy lives , all which qualifications we finde but in a few ) may without an extraordinary calling from god be called forth by by the church upon some occasion ( and namely in the absence or bodily weaknesse of ministers , or for tryall of gifts when a man intends the ministery ) to speake to edification , exhortation and comfort . iehosaphat sent princes ( who neither were ministers , nor intended so to be ) to teach with the priests and levites , to wit , at least to incourage the people , to hearken to the priests and levites come amongst them , chron. . , , . as jehosaphat himselfe also did the like , chron. . . yea , and was their mouth also to god in prayer , v. . . to . as for that prophecying cor. . we conceive as some things in it be extraordinary , so some things ordinary . extraordinary , that private men , and new converts should be so soon & so suddainly , & so much enlightened & enlarged , as to be able to prophecy publikely to the edification of a whole church : but yet this we conceive to be ordinary , that some private men may be found ( at least in some churches ) grown christians , of able gifts , who may have received a gift of prophecy , and for such we doe not thinke it requireth any more an extraordinary calling for them to prophecy in our churches , then for iehosaphat and his princes to prophecy in the church of israel . our answer to this question is that we never knew any ministers that did call upon the people thus to doe : and as for us , such calling upon them is farre from us . all that we know to be holden in this case is this , that some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question publiquely for their better satisfaction upon very urgent and weighty cause , though even this is doubted of by others , and all judge the ordinary practice of it , not necessary : but ( if it be not meekly and wisely carried ) to be inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull , and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any church among us , and in most churches never . true it is , in the times a little afore the synod divers that were infected with corrupt opinions were very bold , & forward in this kind of asking questions , after sermons , especially when they had heard somthing delivered publiquely that did make against their tenents ; by which kind of asking questions , they plainely discovered of what spirit they were , but for being called upon by us thus to doe , ( as it seems to your question that you have been informed ) the truth is , there was no such matter . but now these men are long since , ( the greatest part of them ) to an island ( called aquedneck ) departed from amongst us , some of them being excommunicated or banished , or both , & others departing voluntarily , or for feare of the like censure , by meanes of which departure of these troublesome spirits from amongst us , and the blessing of god upon the synod & sermons that have laid open & reproved this disorderly asking of questions , a man may now live from one end of the year unto another in these congregations , & not hear any man open his mouth in such kind of asking questions . . the conversion of sinners unto god doth not alwaies follow the preaching of every one , that is in a lawfull office of ministery , as experience and scripture doe aboundantly witnesse , isay . . , . & . . ezech. . . king. . . mat. . , . &c. iohn . . . and when it doth follow , it is not by vertue of him , or of his office , but by vertue of gods blessing , and the mighty operation of his spirit as he pleaseth , without which the minister and his office could have had no vertue at all to convert sinners unto god , cor. . . no more then peter and iohn could heale the lame man , by virtue of any power or holinesse that was in them , act. . . for otherwise faithfull ministers should not have their labours blessed for conversion some more and some lesse ▪ but all in the same measure , inasmuch as one of them is no more a minister then another , nor no more in office then another , their office being the same , the effect in conversion would bee the same if conversion were by the vertue of their office . the truth it is , the law of the lord , ( the whole word of god ) that converts the soule , psal . . . and the gospell that is the power of god unto salvation . rom. . . and therefore the conversion of a man to god is to be ascribed to god , and to the word of his grace ; and not to the minister , nor any vertue of his office . . but this we doe acknowledge , that the sound conversion of sinners , whensoever such a thing comes to passe , doth argue that the instruments of such conversion are sent of god : god would not so have blessed them , as to convert any by them , if himselfe had not sent them at all , rom. . , . ier. . . . and yet we dare not say , that gods word is not made effectuall to conversion , unlesse the man that speakes it be a minister , that is to say , a church officer , for the contrary is evident from the scripture , john . . act. . . with . , , . cor. . . they that were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about steven , were not church officers , at least all of them ( for the apostles who were their chiefe , if not their only preaching officers , were not scattered abroad upon that persecution , but remained still at jerusalem , acts . . ) and yet these men did so preach the word of the lord jesus to the iewes and the grecians , that through the good hand of the lord that was with them , a great number believed and turned to the lord ; and the same we say of the woman of samaria , by whose testimonie of christ many of the samaritans believed on him . to restraine the efficacy of gods word in such sort as to say that none can be converted by it , unlesse he that speakes it be a minister , is to limit the spirit of the lord , where he hath not limited himself , who is free in working by whom he pleaseth , and as he will , cor. . . even as the wind bloweth where it listeth , iohn . . and sometimes doth bring to passe great things by weake meanes , that his owne glory may be the more , cor. . , , . if any say , how can these things stand together , that a man that is no minister may be an instrument of conversion , and yet conversion of sinners argues that the man is sent of god ? wee answer , that we must distinguish of sending according to the divers degrees thereof . for sometimes it imports no more but such an act of gods disposing providence , whereby men are gifted and enabled for such or such a worke , and permitted thereunto , though they have no command from him for the doing thereof , nor doe it not with a sincere minde in any obedience to god , but for corrupt and sinister ends of their owne . thus god sent the king of assyria against the iewes , isa . . . and bands of the caldees , and bands of other nations against jehojakim , and against iudah , to destroy it , king. . . and yet they had no command from him to doe this , but sinned grievously in so doing . thus they that preached christ not sincerely , but of envie and strife , to adde affliction to pauls bands , yet inasmuch as they preached christ , might be said to be sent of god , and therefore the apostle joyed at their preaching , phil. . , . thus baalam in his prophecies against the enemies of israel and for the happy state of gods people , might be said to be sent of god , though his heart and ends were corrupt and sinfull . but if men be not onely enabled with gifts for such or such a worke , but besides this , have a sincere minde and desire in the using thereof , to seeke the glory of god , and the good of soules , such men may much more be said to be sent of god , iohn . . for these men have not onely abilities and gifts from god , and permission to imploy them as the former had but also his spirit within them , which doth set their hearts on right and holy ends , which the other wanted . and yet if men doe want a lawfull office of ministery , wherein to exercise those gifts or a lawfull calling to that office or exercise , they may in that respect be said not to be sent of god , or not to be called of him though sent of him , in the first or second respect . thus in the scriptures it is said of some they ran and i sent them not , ier. . . i perceived that god had not sent him , but he pronounced his prophecies , because sanballat and tobiah had hired him , neh. . . and yet doubtlesse in respect of gods disposing providence , he had sent them , as the scripture witnesseth , that god sends strong delusions and lying prophets , and unfaithfull shepherds , thes . . . king. . , . zech. . . to be a plague unto the sons of men , and for tryall to his servants , deut. . . cor. . . now let these distinctions be applyed to the case in hand , and we may perceive how , if a man convert sinners , certainly god sends him ; and yet some that are not called to any office in the ministery , may through his blessing convert sinners : a man converts none unlesse god send him in the first or second sence and yet he may convert , and not bee sent , if sending be taken in the third sence , that is for a lawfull calling into some office in the church . and wee may adde , further a man may be sent in this third sence and yet convert none if he be not also sent in the first and second respect ; that is a man may have a lawfull calling outwardly unto a lawfull office in the church , and yet not convert sinners , if he want gifts or sincerity of heart , which might be the case of iudas , and of many wicked priests in the old testament : yea , happily convert none though he be truly sent in all three respects , as was said before in the beginning of the answer to this quaere . but if comparison be made , we doubt not , but whilest the ministery remaines uncorrupt , god is wont to follow with a greater blessing the labours of those who have gifts and an office of ministery also , then of those who have gifts alone without office . he is willing , and wonted to honour himselfe most , where most of his wayes are observed . master parker polit. eccles . l. . c. . &c. . observes a difference between the substantialls in church politie , and the accessaries or accidentalls ▪ and circumstantialls : and againe , that of circumstances some are generall , and some particular and individuall ; and so sheweth that the church politie in regard of the substantialls thereof is prescribed in the word , and therefore immutable . according to which distinction wee answer , that if those words ( precisely the same course ) mentioned in this question , be not meant of particular and individuall circumstances , but only of the substantialls or generall circumstances , then for ought we know there is no materiall point , either in constitution , or government , wherein the churches in n. e. ( viz. in the bay , in the jurisdiction of plymouth , at connectacute , and quilipiake ) do not observe the same course . ( and sure it is if they doe not they ought , because christ hath left but one way for all churches , and the same to be observed to the worlds end , tim. . , . ) onely , that conformity to the lyturgie and ceremonies in some places , to the northward , that anabaptisme at providence , and familisme at aquidneck ▪ hinders that we cannot say the same of them , nor of any other in n. e. that concurre with them in their unwarrantable wayes ▪ if there be any such , though thankes be to god there is none within this jurisdiction . who must have liberty to sit downe in this common-wealth and enjoy the liberties thereof is not our place to determine , but the magistrates who are the rulers and governours of the common-wealth , and of all persons within the same . and as for acknowledging a company to be a sister church , that shall set up , and practise another forme of church discipline , being otherwise in some measure , as you say , approveable , we conceive the companie that shall so doe , shall not be approveable therein . for the discipline appointed by jesus christ for his churches is not arbitrary , that one church may set up and practice one forme , and another another forme , as each one shall please , but is one and the same for all churches , and in all the essentialls and substantialls of it unchangable , and to be kept , till the appearing of jesus christ , tim. . , . from which place master cartwright observes the perpetuity of church government taught by the apostles , unto the end of the world , and is plain and large in this point , rep. p. . as is likewise mr. parker polit. eccles . l. . c. . and so forward to the end of that book , unto whom we refer you herein . and if that discipline which we here practise , be ( as we are perswaded of it ) the same which christ hath appointed , and therefore unalterable , we see not how another can be lawfull ; and therefore if a company of people shall come hither , and here set up and practise another , we pray you thinke not much , if we cannot promise to approve of them in so doing , especially untill wee see how approvable the men may be , and what discipline it is that they would set up . for should wee in such generall words as is there expressed , promise to accept of a companie as a sister church ▪ that shall set up and practise another discipline , and then should be taken at the utmost extent of our words , we might by this meanes be bound to accept of a company of papists , or arminians , or familists , or anabaptists , as a sister church , for there is none of these but something may be found in them , and in their discipline , that is in some measure approveable . and yet we pray you heartily in the lord , so conceive of us in this passage , that we are farre from making any such comparison , as if your selves were not approved in our consciences far above the best of such men , yea and above our selves in many respects . we have said before in that which we sent you the last yeare , and upon this occasion we say it now againe , that you are in our hearts ( if the lord would suffer ) to live and dye together : and therefore if this question were meant of your selves , or any of you , and a company of godly people joyning with you ( as it may be it is , though we cannot certainly say it , because you doe not expresse so much ) we thinke if you were here , wee should gladly accept of you and your people as a sister-church , and that you would doe the like to ours ; and yet not when you should set up and practise one forme of church-discipline , and we another , but because we are perswaded if you were here , you would set up and practise the very same that wee doe , and not any other : or else if we be swerving from the rule in any particular ( as god knowes we are but weake men , and far from dreaming of perfection in this life ) god would by you send in more light unto us then yet we see , and make you instruments in his hand for perfecting what is here begun according to his will , for strengthening what is weake , and reforming what may be found to be amisse : for we trust in the lord , that as wee are desirous that you might joyne with us in the wayes wherein we now walke , ( which we doe not see but they are according to the rule ) so we should be as willing to receive light from you , and to redresse ( as god shall helpe us ) whatsoever by you or any other he may discover to us to stand in need of reformation . for which cause among others we doe the more earnestly desire , if it were the lords will that he might send you hither , nothing doubting but if you were here , there would be such agreement between you and us , that either you would approve of the things which we beleeve and practise , or that we should approve of what you may shevv us to be more agreeable to the minde of christ : and then there would be no occasion of such a question , whether we may set up and practise another discipline , and yet be accepted as a sister-church : but rather of blessing the lord , when that shall be accomplished in you and us which is written in the prophets , i will give them one heart and one way : i will turne unto the people a pure language , that they may all call upon the name of the lord , to serve him with one consent , jer. . . zeph. . . wee have confidence in you through the lord , that you will be none otherwise minded ; but if in any thing ye be otherwise minded god shall reveale even this unto you , gal. . . phil. . . this was answered in the answer to posit . . & . sent unto you the last yeare . finis . an apologie of the chvrches in new-england for chvrch-covenant . or , a discourse touching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company doe enter into when they become a church ; and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . sent over in answer to master bernard , in the yeare . and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in this point . london , printed by t. p. and m. s. for benjamin allen. . a discovrse tovching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company do enter into when they become a church , and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . . jer . . . come let us joyne our selves to the lord , in a perpetuall covenant that shall not be forgotten . although that which is foretold in these two chapters ; and namely in the fourth and fifth verses of this chapter , was in part fulfilled when the people of god returned from captivitie in babylon at the end of seventie yeares : yet we must not limit the place to that time onely , but may extend it further to the dayes of the gospel , and the spirituall return , not of the jews onely , but of the gentiles also , when men shall be converted from pagan , antichristian , babylonish , or jewish bondage and captivitie , or from slavery to sinne , and self-righteousnesse , and shall be joyned to god in the fellowship of his church , in the dayes of the new testament . for as some passages in this scripture were never fully accomplished at the returne from the captivitie of the seventie yeares , and namely this , that the children of israel and judah should returne both together : ( for the ten tribes returned not at all : ) so many things that literally concerned the jewes were types and figures , signifying the like things concerning the people of god in these latter dayes : in which respect sincere converts are called jewes , rom . . and israelites , gal. . . joh. . . and our sacraments are made antitypes of theirs , cor. . , , . and rome is called babylon , rev. . . and papists are called gentiles , rev. . . and therefore the captivitie of babylon might well be a type of the spirituall captivitie of gods people to antichristian bondage , and their returne from babylon to sion , a type of the returne of christians from romish slavery to the true sion , the christian church . and this may be added further , that this place seemes not onely to be meant of the private or personall conversion of this or that particular christian , but also further , of the open and joynt calling of a company , because it is said , they shall come , the children of israel and the children of judah together , and that their saying shall not be , let me joyne , &c. but in the plurall number , let us joyne our selves unto the lord , so noting the joyning of a company together in holy covenant with god. concerning which covenant with god , it will not be amisse for the better understanding of that which followes ; first , briefly to shew how diversly covenant is taken in the scripture , which sometimes imports generally any firme appointment or promise of god , when man doth not promise unto god any thing backe againe : thus the preserving of noah in the arke , and of the world from being drowned any more by a floud ; the interchangeable succession of day and night ; the giving of the priesthood unto phineas ; the setting forth of the shew-bread every sabbath before the lord , and the giving of the heave-offering unto the priests , are said to be done by a covenant , or an everlasting covenant of god , gen. . . & . , , . jer. . . num. . , . levit. . . num. . . but sometimes covenant is taken more strictly and properly , for an agreement which god doth make with men , when he promiseth some blessing unto men , and bindes them to performe some dutie backe againe to him . taken thus it hath two parts : first , a promise or stipulation of some blessing on gods part : secondly , restipulation or promise , or binding of man unto dutie back againe on his part : both these are in those words of the covenant , i will be to thee a god , thou shalt be to me a people : and so gen. . . & v. , , , . the covenant taken thus is either the covenant of workes , or the covenant of grace : and againe the covenant may be considered ; first as it is personall , private and particular , between god and one particular soule , making covenant with god , and god with him , either at his first conversion ; or at other times ; of which we reade sam. . . & psal . , . & . , . & . & psal . . , secondly , it is generall and publick of a company joyntly together , of which this text jer. . . seemes most properly to speake : as also that deut. . , , &c. and that exod. . , , and many others : a covenant taken thus generally when it respects spirituall blessings , and spirituall duties , in the communion of saints , is that which is called church-covenant , which church-covenant differs not in substance of the things promised from that which is between the lord and every particular soule , but onely in some other respects ; as first , the one is of one christian in particular , the other of a company joyntly together . secondly , if right order be observed , a man ought not to enter into church-covenant , till he be in covenant with god before , in respect of his personall estate . thirdly , the one is usually done in private , as in a mans closet between the lord and his soule , and the other in some publick assembly . fourthly , the one in these dayes is of such duties as the gospel requires of every christian as a christian , the other of such duties as the gospel requires of every church and the members thereof . now concerning church-covenant , two things are to be noted for the better understanding thereof : first , the description of it : secondly , the use of it , and the benefit and fruit thereof . for the former it may be thus described , viz. a solemne and publick promise before the lord , whereby a company of christians , called by the power and mercy of god to fellowship with christ , and by his providence to live together , and by his grace to cleave together in the unitie of faith , and brotherly love , and desirous to partake together in all the holy ordinances of god , doe in confidence of his gracious acceptance in christ , binde themselves to the lord , and one to another , to walke together by the assistance of his spirit , in all such wayes of holy worship in him , and of edification one towards another , as the gospel of christ requireth of every christian church , and the members thereof . in this description , there are comprised six things : first , the generall name of the thing : [ a solemne and publick promise ] a promise it is , and therefore it is called , a joyning in covenant here : an entring into covenant , deut. . . solemne and publick , and therefore it is by the children of israel and the children of judah together : and they say , let us joyne . secondly , the object [ the lord , and one another ] joyne our selves to the lord it is not a promise onely to man , but to the lord himselfe , and likewise to one another ; for , come let us joyne , implyes mutuall consent together . thirdly , the agents or the qualification of the persons : [ christians ] not turkes , indians , &c. saints , psal . . . , . [ called to fellowship with christ ] so cor. . else if they be not united to christ by faith , they are not fit materialls for such a building as a church of god , which is the house of the living god , ephes . . . cor. . . phil. . . rev. . . [ by his providence to live together ] else they cannot partake in the lords ordinances together as churches ought to doe , cor. . . act. . the whole church comes together in one place [ cleaving together in faith and love ] so act. . if they differ , namely , in opinion , or in their affection , and should joyne in this covenant , breaches , factions , rents , and schismes , would be like to be the issue of such joyning : things so unlike would not close nor long hold together , dan. . [ desirous to partake in all ordinances ] this should be the ground of their joyning in covenant together , psal . . . willing : and not pride , nor gaine , nor the like : fourthly , the act [ binde themselves ] that now they are bound by their owne word and promise , that they may say now , as psal . . . thy vowes are upon me , or as num. . . if he binde his soule with a vow . fiftly , the matter promised ; [ to walke together in all such wayes of worship and mutuall edification , as the gospel requireth of churches and church-members ] they binde not themselves to observe any devises of their owne , nor inventions of men , but such things as the word of god requireth ; neither is it perfect obedience to the law , for that were impossible to performe , and presumption to promise ; nor is it onely in generall the duties of the gospel , but specially such duties of worship to god , & edification of one another as concerne church-state , which now they enter into . sixtly , the manner of performing [ confidence of gods gracious acceptance and assistance through christ ] for in all our wayes god must be acknowledged , pro. . . and much more in such speciall matters of weight : if men in entring into this covenant looke for acceptance , through any worth of their owne , or promise dutie in their own strength , they shew themselves like to the pharisees , luk. . , . and turne the church-covenant into a covenant of workes : and as many as are of the workes of the law , are under the curse , gal. . . the use and benefit of this church-covenant , and the fruit thereof , may be seene in two particulars ; first , that this is that whereby a company of christians doe become a church : it is the constituting forme of a church . secondly , this is that by taking hold whereof a particular person becomes a member of a church , which was constituted afore . for the former of these ; every christian church must have in it both matter and forme , and as the matter by gods appointment are visible saints , or visible beleevers , ephes . . . cor. . . and in the new testament , onely so many as may meete together in one congregation : so the forme is a uniting , or combining , or knitting of those saints together into one visible body , by the band of this holy covenant . some union or band there must be amongst them , whereby they come to stand in a new relation to god , and one towards another , other then they were in before : or els they are not yet a church , though they be fit materialls for a church ; even as soule and body are not a man , unlesse they be united ; nor stones and timber an house , till they be compacted and conjoyned . now that a company becomes a church , by joyning in covenant , may be made good sundry wayes ; first , by plaine texts of scripture ; as from deut. . , , , , . yee stand this day all you before the lord your god , your captaines of your tribes , your elders , your officers , with all the men of israel , ver . . that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the lord thy god , ver . . and he may establish thee for a people unto himselfe , ver . . so that here is plain●y shewed , that here was a company , ver . . and this company were to be established to be a people unto the lord , that is to say , a church , ver . . and this is done by the peoples entring into solemne covenant with god , ver . . and therefore a company of people doe become a church by entring into covenant with god. this covenant was not like our church-covenants , for it was of all the nation together ; whereas the church-covenant with us , is of some select persons , leaving out others . . this objection concerns the matter of a church , but the covenant is not the materiall cause of a church , but the formall cause thereof : and for this the text is ▪ plaine and expresse , that by entring into covenant with god , a people come to be the lords people , that is to say , his church . . if it was of all the people together , the reason was because that church was a nationall church : now if a nationall church becomes a church by entring into solemne covenant with god , then a congregationall church becomes a church by the same means ; for there is no difference between them in this point . . though it was of all the people , we may not say it proves that when we looke at the materiall cause of a church , there may be a promiscuous taking in of all commers without distinction or separation of the precious from the vile ; for , first , when god took in this nation to be his people , he separated them from all the nations of the earth besides : so that there was a distinction and separation of some from others . secondly , this generation was generally a generation of beleevers ; for it was they that were to enter into the land within a while after ; for they were fortie yeares in the wildernesse ▪ & this covenant was made in the last moneth save one of the last of those fortie yeares , deut. . . and their carkasses fell not in the wildernesse through unbeliefe , as their fathers did , num . heb. . but entred by faith , and when they were entred , subdued kingdomes by their faith , heb. . . and served the lord all the dayes of joshua , and of the elders that out lived joshua , josh . . as for that which is said of them , ver . , . of this chap. that the lord had not given them eyes to see , &c. that proves not that they were wholly hardned in a carnall estate , but onely that they were dull and slow of heart to consider of sundry dispensations of god towards them ; for as much is said of the disciples of christ , mar. . , . when doubtlesse they were not meere carnall or naturall persons . this people deut. . could not become the lords people by entring into solemne covenant with god , for they were the lords church and people already before this . . if they were , yet that was by entring into solemne covenant with god on mount sinai , when the lord had brought them up out of the land of aegypt ; for then they entred into solemne covenant with god , and god with them , and so they bec●me the lords peculiar people , exod. ▪ , , , . &c. if they were his people before that , yet that also was by covenant made with them in the loynes of abraham , when god tooke him and his seede to be his church and people , yet separating ishmael from isaac and es●● from jacob , that the inheritance of the covenant of god , and of being the church of god , might rest in the house of jacob. . yet it was not without great reason that the lord should now establish them by solemne covenant to be a people to himselfe , because the nation had been much degenerated from the spirit and wayes of abraham in aegypt , and had broken that covenant by their idolatries there , ezek. . , . and the covenant made in sinai or hore● when they were come out of aegypt , they had also broken by their idolatries in the wildernesse , ezek . , . for which causes , and the like , the lord consumed that generation , that they never entred into the land , josh . . , . and therefore now when their posteritie and children were ready to enter in , the lord entred into covenant with them , and thereby established them to be his people , their fathers being cut off for breaking the covenant . but still it was by covenant that both fathers first , and children afterward became a church and people unto god ; and when this generation were entred into the land , their covenant made before between god and them , was confirmed by circumcision , josh . . . . they being not circumcised before . but this covenant was of the whole church with god , and therefore not like our church-covenants , which are between the church and the members , concerning watchfulnesse over one another , and the like . our church-covenants are with the lord himselfe , as was shewed before in the description thereof . for watchfulnesse and duties of edification one towards another , are but branches of the lords covenant , being duties commanded by the law : and so it was with that people of israel , who when they promised and covenanted to walke in all the wayes of god ; in all his statutes and commandements and judgements , they promised these duties of love and watchfulnesse and edification one towards another , because these were duties commanded and required of god , lev. : . deut. . the neglect whereof in the matter of achan was the sinne of all the congregation ▪ and brought judgement upon them all , josh . . , . yea by this covenant they were bound to duties towards them that were not then present , but children afterward to be borne , and proselytes , that afterward should be added to them , ver . , . like as our church-covenants are with them that now are , and that hereafter shall become members of the same church . when jehojada made a covenant between the king and the people , king. . . that covenant was but a branch of the lords covenant with them all , both king and people : for the king promised but to rule the people righteously , according to the will of god : and the people to be subject to the king so ruling . now these duties of the king to them , and of them to the king , were such as god required in his covenant , both of him and them : and so it is in church-covenant , the duties of the church to the members , and the members to the church , and one another , are no other but such as the gospel and the covenant of grace requireth both of the church and the members of it in their severall places . but this place of deut. . is not sufficient to prove a church-covenant in these dayes : because it is in the scriptures of the old testament , for what soever must be used in the dayes of the new testament , must be proved from the scriptures of the new testament , or else it is to be layd aside . . the church-covenant may be proved from the new testament also ▪ as will afterwards appeare . . but suppose there were not pregnant places for it in the new testament , yet it is not enough to prove the same unlawfull : for whatsoever ordinance of the old testament is not repealed in the new testament , as peculiar to the jewish paedagogie , but was of morall and perpetuall equitie , the same bindes us in these dayes ▪ and is to be accounted the revealed will of god in all ages , though it be not particularly and expressely mentioned in the writings of the new testament , else how shall we prove it unlawfull for a man to marry his sister , or his aunt ? how shall we prove it warrantable and necessary for magistrates to punish sabbath-breaking , blasphemy , and idolatry ? how shall we prove it lawfull to apply the seale of gods covenant unto infants ? or to admit women to eate of the holy things ; for the scriptures of the new testament doe speake little in these cases ; onely the scriptures of the old testament doe give direction , and light about them , lev ▪ . & . neh. . . &c. chron. . . & king. . gen. . . & exod. . . . and the new testament hath nothing to the contrary , and they are all according to morall equitie and reason , and therefore they are to be observed from the scriptures of the old testament , as the revealed will of god , though there were nothing expressely for them in the new. and the same we say of the particular in hand . for , that a company should be combined together into one body , in way of government and subjection , by way of mutuall free covenant ; as men doe when they enter into church estate , nothing is more naturall or agreeable to morall equitie ; nay , it implyeth a contradiction in the very name of libertie or freedome , that free-men should take upon them authoritie or power over free men without their free consent , and voluntary and mutuall covenant or engagement . and therefore seeing this covenant is not repealed in the scriptures of the new testament , the scriptures of the old are sufficient warrant for it . another scripture to prove the same , is deut. . , , . with deut. . . this day the lord hath commanded thee to doe these statutes and judgements ▪ thou shalt therefore keepe and doe them , &c. thou hast avouched the lord this day to be thy god , and to walke in his wayes , and to keepe his statutes , &c. and the lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people ; take heed and hearken , o israel , this day thou art become the people of the lord thy god. this scripture plainly shewes these things : . that here was the making of a covenant between god and man ; for that avouching of god to them , and them to god , was the making of covenant , ver . , . . this was not of one person , but of a company together , the whole people of israel , . . & . . here is the effect of this covenant , that thereby they become the lords people , ver . . so that when a company doe enter into holy covenant with god , they become thereby the lords people , that is to say , his church . so ezech. . . proves the same likewise : i entred into covenant with thee , saith the lord , and thou becam●st mine . here also is the making of covenant between the lord and men ; and this covenant was not personall , but of a company ; for it was with hierusalem , ver . . which was a whole citie ; it was with them that were multiplied as the bud of the feild , ver . . and it was with them that did prosper into a kingdome , ver . . and therefore not meant onely of any one particular person : and by this covenant they became the lords ; that is , the lords church and people ; for it is expresly said , i entred into covenant with thee , and thou becamest mine . so that when a company enter into covenant with god , and god with them , they become thereby the lords church and people . likewise ezek. . . i will cause you to passe under the rod ; and i will bring you into the bond of the covenant . in which place , there is first mention of an holy covenant . secondly , this was not of one person , but of a company , the whole house of israel , ver . . . thirdly , and this covenant is called a bond , because it is by covenant that a people are bound , and tyed , and knit together , as one church , all of them unto the lord , and one unto another ; so that the covenant is the bond of union , by which a company are so combined and united , as that they become a church . it is also observable , how the lord before he would bring them into this bond of the covenant , he would cause them to passe under the rod ; by which phrase , as junius upon the place well observes , is meant tryall and probation ; drawne from the manner of shepheards or owners of cattell , who went among their sheepe , or other cattell with a rod , and therewith pointed out such as were for the lords holy use , as lev. . . and so hereby is noted that god would not in the dayes of the gospel have men to be brought into his church hand over head , but he would first cause them to passe under the rod of due tryall and probation ; and then such as upon tryall were found to be holy for god , or meete matter for his church , should solemnly enter into covenant with god , and that covenant should be the bond that should combine them , and knit them together into one , that so they that were many particular persons , should all become one body , that is to say , a church . and so much of the first argument drawne from plaine texts of scripture . a second argument may be taken from the titles that are given to the church ; as first , that the church is said to be married or espoused unto christ , jer. . . & . . cor. . . from whence the argument may be formed thus : if every church becomes a church by being married or espoused unto christ , then a company becomes a church by way of covenant : but the former is true , therefore the latter is true also . the assumption , that a church becomes a church by being married unto christ , is plaine from the former scriptures , where the church of israel , and the church of corinth , in regard of their entring into church-estate , are said to be espoused and married unto christ , as a loving and chast virgine to one husband . which spirituall marriage between christ and his church , is also taught in the type of the marriage between king salomon and pharoahs daughter , psal . . the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason ; for there is no marriage but by way of covenant ; no woman becomes a mans wife , but by way of bestowing her selfe in covenant upon such a man : neither doth a man become an husband , but by the same means ; and therefore the scripture speaking of the violation of marriage , calls it a violation of covenant , prov. . . christ hath but one wife or spouse , cant. . the catholique church indeed is but one ; viz ▪ the whole company of gods elect in heaven , in earth , dead , now living , and not yet borne : but as there is the church-catholique , which is but one ; so there are particular and visible churches , which are in number many ; and therefore the scripture speakes of churches , cor. . . . gal. . . of the churches of the gentiles , rom. . . of seven churches , rev. . . of all churches , cor. . . & . . rev. . . but if every particular church be the wife of christ , how many hundred wives should he have ? . if the church of israel , jer. . . the church of corinth , cor. . . the jewish church , rev. . . be the spouse and wife of christ , there is no reason but others should be the same also , especially seeing there is no particular church , but in respect of their church estate , they may decline and goe a whoring from christ , and that shews that they were first espoused to him ; for no woman can be said to goe a whoring from a man , if shee were never married , nor espoused to him at all . . this that seemes an absurditie , and were a sinfull practise among men , in respect of christ , is a certaine truth , and no dishonour unto him at all , to have more spouses then one upon earth , many spirituall spouses . men cannot give themselves wholly and intirely to many as christ can . every faithfull soule is espoused and married unto christ ; and in that respect he hath not onely many hundred but many thousand , yea many millions of spirituall spouses . but this spirituall marriage is between christ and the church , but the church-covenant is between the church and the members , and therefore this marriage doth not prove the church-covenant . . in some sort there may be said to be a marriage between the church and the members , viz. in respect of that deare love and affection , that ought to be between them ; and therefore it is said , as a young man marrieth a virgine , so shall the children of the church be married to the church , isa . . . . but properly the marriage is between christ & the church , and so is the covenant also , so farre as therein they give up themselves to christ as unto an head and lord ; as a woman in the covenant of marriage doth give up her selfe unto her husband ; and the performance of such duties as the church and the member owe one unto another , is a branch of that marriage-covenant , wherein they are tyed to christ ; for christ himselfe in his covenant requires , not onely that they should give up themselves to him , but also that they should performe these duties one unto another . and accordingly it is said of the churches in macedonia , that they gave up themselves first to the lord , and then to us by the will of god , cor. . . true it is , they doe also binde themselves by covenant one unto another , but in that respect the covenant is properly a brotherly covenant ; like that sam. . amos . . because there the engagement is to one another as brethren , fellow-members , and fellow-helpers , and not as to one head or lord , as it is in respect of christ , and therefore in that respect it is not so properly a marriage-covenant as it is in respect of christ : though duties to one another are promised in their covenant with one another , and also in their covenant with christ . in briefe thus : they promise unto christ duties to him , and duties to one another according to him : and so their covenant is a marriage-covenant with christ : they promise also to one another , duties to one another , and so it is a brotherly covenant . another title given to the church ( which also proves that a church is made by covenant ) is the title of a citie , or citie of god , psal . . . & . . & . . ephes . . the argument lyeth thus ▪ if a true church be a citie of god , then a church becomes a church by covenant : but every true church is a citie of god. ergo. the assumption is proved by the scriptures forealledged . the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason , for every citie is united by some covenant among themselves , the citizens are received into jus civitatis , or right of citie priviledges , by some covenant or oath ; and therefore it is so likewise in this citie of god the church ; and men become citizens of the church by solemne covenant . the third argument may be drawne from the meanes of reforming and restoring a church when it is corrupted , which is by entring into covenant a new with god , chron. . & . . & neh. . . & . , . jer. . , . the reason may be taken thus : if a church decayed is to be restored and reformed by renuing covenant with god , then it was instituted and erected at the first by way of covenant : the reason of which consequence is , because abuses and corruptions are to be reformed by bringing things back to the first institution : thus christ reformes the abuses of marriage , by bringing them to the first institution of that ordinance ; from the beginning it was not so , mat. . and thus paul reformeth the abuses of the lords supper , by telling them what was the first institution thereof , cor. . , &c. and thus the lord jesus calling on the declining church of ephesus for reformation , bids her remember from whence shee is fallen , and repent and doe her first workes , rev. . . now the assumption is plaine from the texts above alledged , that at the reforming of a church , there is to be a renuing of covenant ; and thence it follows , that at the first erecting of a church , there was the making of a covenant with god , for els this renuing of covenant would not have been the way to reforme it . the fourth argument is taken from that which doth dissolve a church , which is the dissolving or breaking of the covenant , zach. . , , . if dissolving the covenant be that which doth dissolve the church , then the making of covenant is that which constitutes a church . the reason of the consequence is plaine , because otherwise the covenant might be dissolved & the church stand still , if it were not the making of the covenant that did constitute the church : but if dissipating stones in a building doe dissolve the house , then the compacting and conjoyning of them is that which makes the house ; if separation of soule and body be that which destroyes the man , that then we say he is not : it must needs be the uniting of them , that did constitute & make the man : and so it is in this case . and that dissolving the covenant is that which dissolves a church , is plaine from the text alledged , zach. . where the breaking of the two staves , of beautie and bands , that is , the unchurching of the jewes , is interpreted to be the breaking of the covenant that god had made with that people , and the brotherhood that was between judah and israel . the fifth argument is taken from the distinction which god hath appointed amongst churches , and the confounding of all churches into one , if there be not this covenant to distinguish them . if churches be distinct societies , and may not be confounded , then churches are compacted and combined by covenant : but the former is true . ergo. that churches are distinct societies , is plaine in the scripture , where we have mention of many churches in one countrey or province , gal. . . thes . . . of seven churches in asia , rev. . . and of all the churches , cor. . . rev. . . ephesus is not smyrna , nor smyrna is not thyatira , nor either of them pergamus , but each one distinct of themselves , having officers of their owne , which did not belong to others : vertues of their owne for which others are not praised , corruptions of their owne , for which others are not blamed ; if it were not thus , then when lacdicea is condemned for lukewarmenesse , or ephesus for declining , all the rest should be reproved also : and when philadelfia is praised , all the rest should be praised also , which we see is otherwise . now from hence the consequence is certaine , that therefore they are combined by some covenant each one amongst themselves ; for there is nothing els without this that wil sufficiently distinguish them . the spirit of god and faith in their hearts , is common to all christians under heaven , and in heaven also , and therefore this is not the thing that makes distinction . nor is it habitation in the same towne together , for that may be common to such christians as are not of this church , and usually is to many that are no christians . as it is with companies in london ; as the company of goldsmiths , &c. that many others dwell in the same towne with them , yea it may be in the same streete that are not of their company : and therefore it is not meerely habitation that doth distinguish them from others , but some combination and agreement amongst themselves ; so it is not habitation in the same towne that distinguisheth churches , and church-members from other men , but their mutuall agreement and combination and joyning themselves together in an holy covenant with god. if the spirit of god and faith in their hearts cannot distinguish one church from another , because these are common to them all , then how can covenant distinguish them , sith all churches are joyned by covenant one as well as another ? it is not a covenant simply or a covenant in generall that doth constitute a church , or distinguish one church from another , but a covenant with application and appropriation to these persons . even as it is in marriage , though all married couples be united by covenant , and a covenant wherein one couple promiseth the same duties that another couple doth , yet a covenant with application and appropriation of the duties covenanted to this man and this woman in particular , such a covenant is the very thing that make a couple , man and wife together , and gives them mutuall power over each other , as husband and wife , and puts a distinction between them and all other men and women in the world . and so it is in this case ; a covenant to performe church-duties with application and appropriation to such persons , is the very thing that constitutes a church , and distinguisheth one church from another . and thus much concerning the former of the two particulars , to shew the use of church-covenant , viz. that it is that whereby a company doe become a church . the second particular is this , that taking hold of the covenant , or joyning in it , is that which makes a particular person a member of a church . and this followes upon the former , and that may be the first argument to prove it . if joyning in covenant be that which makes a company to become a church , then taking hold of that covenant is requisite to make a particular person become a member of the church : but the first is true , as hath been shewed before ; therefore the second is true also : if compacting and conjoyning of stones and pieces of timber be , that that makes an house , then a particular stone cannot become a part of that house , till it be compacted and con●oyned to the rest : but the former is true , even in the church of god , which is the spirituall spouse and citie of god , living stones , christians , beleevers must be compacted together , and builded up together , ephes . . . . psal . ● . and therefore the latter is true also , that a particular christian becomes a member of the church , a part of that building by being combined with the rest . a second argument may be drawne from the scripture , isa . . , , . let not the sonne of the stranger , that hath joyned himselfe to the lord , speake , saying , the lord hath utterly separated me from his people , &c. the sonnes of the strangers that joyne themselves to the lord , to serve him , &c. and take hold of my covenant , even them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer , &c. concerning which scripture , note three things to the present purpose . first , that these strangers were members of christ , true beleevers , joyned to god by faith ; for it is said , they have joyned themselves to the lord , v. & v. . that they loved the name of the lord , served him , and kept his sabbaths , v. . and yet for all this they were not as yet joyned as members of the visible church , for if they had been joyned , there would have been no cause for such a complaint , the lord hath separated me from his people , v. . besides , bringing them into the church as members , and granting them the priviledge of members , is promised as a reward and blessing upon this their joyning to the lord by faith and obedience , v. . and therefore it is not the same , but a distinct thing from it ; the one being promised as a reward and blessing upon the other . secondly , the lord promiseth that he will make them members of his church : them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer . thirdly , that among other things requisite to make them members , this was one , viz. the taking hold of that covenant which was between the church of israel and god , v. . so that hence we may gather , that men may be members of christ , joyned to the lord by faith and love , and yet for the present not be members of the visible church : and that when god is so gracious to true beleevers , as to make them members of his visible church , it is requisite that they joyne in covenant before . but might not faith in christ , beleeving in heart on the god of israel , be all the taking hold of the covenant that is here meant . not so , but over and above that , here is also meant their open profession of their faith in the god of israel , and open binding of themselves by covenant to all such duties of faith and obedience , as god required of the church of israel , and the members thereof . now distinctly take the answer to this objection in three or foure particular propositions . first , there was a covenant between the church of israel and god , exod. . , , , . ezek . . deut. . . &c. secondly , this covenant was mutuall ; not onely a promise on gods part to be their god , and to take them for his people , but also reciprocally on their part to give up themselves unto god to be his people , and to doe the dutie of people to their god ; the covenant is not meerely to receive from god , and promise nothing back againe to him ; nor doth god binde himselfe therein , and leave men at libertie , but it is mutuall on both parts , as these scriptures declare ; gen. . . exod. . . deut. . . & . , . hos . . . & zach. . . thirdly , hereupon it followes , that if men had not promised , and also performed , in some measure of truth , the duties of faith and obedience unto god , they had not taken hold of the covenant , but had discovenanted themselves , notwithstanding all the promises of god unto their fathers or others . thus though god promised abraham to be a god to him , and to his seede in their generations , gen. . . yet the ishmaelites and edomites descending from abraham , were discovenanted by not promising nor performing those duties of faith and obedience , which god required on the peoples part : when a covenant containes promises on gods part , and duties also on mans , he doth not take hold of the covenant that takes one part , and leaves another . fourthly , to beleeve what god promised in the covenant for his part , and to promise in a private way the duties of obedience on mans part , was not sufficient to make these strangers members of the church , but they must doe it openly and in the view of the church , else the church could have had no warrant to have admitted such into their fellowship , if their faith and obedience had not been visibly professed , exod. . . chron. . . and in as much as the covenant was mutuall , when these strangers did manifest their taking hold of the covenant , they manifested and professed both faith and obedience , both that they beleeved what god promised , and that they would be obedient to what he required ; if any should have claimed church-fellowship , saying , i beleeve the promises , but would not binde himselfe to any duties of evangelicall obedience , this had been a taking hold of the covenant by the halves , a taking of one part of it in seeming and pretence , and a leaving of another ; but it would not have been sufficient to have brought a man into the fellowship of the church : such of the congregation of israel as would not come to hierusalem to enter into covenant , were to be separated from the church in the dayes of ezra , ezra . . and therefore such as being strangers should refuse to enter into it , could not be admitted into the church ; so that the taking hold of gods covenant , which is there required to make these strangers members of the church , is a beleeving in heart on the god of israel , and an open profession that they did beleeve , and likewise a promise of obedience or subjection unto the god of israel , and an open professing of such obedience and subjection ; and that is the joyning in covenant which we stand for , before a man can be a member of a church , even an open profession of faith and of obedience . a third argument is taken from those scriptures which shew that men become members by being added to the church , or being joyned to them , act. . . & . . & . . if men become members of the church by being added or joyned , then joyning in covenant ( or professing of subjection to the gospel or covenant of god ) is that whereby a man becomes a member of a church : but the former is true , as appeares by the scriptures forementioned , and therefore the latter is true also . but all the doubt in this argument will be concerning the consequence of the major proposition ; but that may be made good by this reason , and the confirmation of it , viz. that a man cannot be added or joyned to the church by any other meanes without this joyning in covenant . the truth of which assertion will appeare by shewing the insufficiency of all other means , without this joyning in covenant , and that may be done in answer to the objections ensuing . when men were added to the church , it may be , no more is meant but that god did convert them and worke faith in their hearts , and that converting of them was the adding of them to the church . this cannot be all ; for , first , saul was converted and had faith wrought in his heart , and yet he was not at the first received for a member of the church at hierusalem ( though he assayed to be joyned unto them , ) till they were better satisfied in his spirituall estate by the testimony of barnabas , act. . , , . and those strangers , isa . . ( as was said before ) were joyned to the lord by being converted , and having faith wrought in their hearts , and yet they doe lament it with griefe , that they were not joyned as members to the visible church : the lord hath separated me from his people , say they , ver . . the old saying is true concerning the visible church , there are many wolves within , and many sheepe without . secondly , those that were joyned were beleevers before they joyned ; for it is said , divers were added , ver . . thirdly , those that were added to the church , were added and joyned to them by such an act as others durst not put forth , act. . . of the rest durst no man joyne unto them , and therefore it was not by the irresistable act of god in converting of them , but by some voluntary act of their owne choice and consent ; for gods converting grace depends not upon mans daring , or not daring to receive it . if to be joyned be no more but to be converted , then when it is said , some durst not be joyned , the meaning should be , they durst not be converted , nor suffer faith to be wrought in them ; which is grosse arminianisme , suspending the converting grace of god upon the free will of the creature . fourthly , and as this joyning which others durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted ; so if it be well considered , what the thing was wherein they durst not joyne , it may appeare that it was nothing els but this , that they durst not agree , and engage themselves to be of their body and societie ; that is , they durst not joyne in covenant with them . for it cannot be meant of dwelling in the towne with them , for this they both durst doe and did : nor is it onely of joyning to heare the word in their assembly , for this also they durst doe , and many did it in great multitudes , so that many by hearing the word became beleevers , and were added to the lord both of men and women , ver . . at this very time when it is said of some they durst not joyne unto them : nor is it of joyning to them in affection , or approbation of their way , for this they also durst doe and did expresse so much in magnifying and commending them , when yet they durst not joyne unto them , ver . . which magnifying of them doth imply that they heard their doctrine , and saw their practise , and approved it , and highly commended them for the same : wherefore seeing this joyning , which some durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted , nor of joyning in habitation , nor of joyning in affection , nor in hearing the word in their assembly , nor of approbation , and expressions that way , it remaineth that it must be meant of joyning in that neere relation of church-fellowship amongst them , so as to be engaged by voluntary consent and agreement to be members of their church . fiftly , if joyning to the church , were no more but to be converted , then he that were converted were joyned as a member of every visible church throughout the world , which were a great confusion of that order , and distinction of churches , which the lord hath appointed . men may be joyned to the church , in heartie affection and love , and yet without any covenant . true , but this will not make them members of that church , for then saul was a member of the church at hierusalem , afore he was joyned a member , for he was joyned to them in heartie affection afore , and therefore assayed to joyne as a member ; and so were they that durst not joyne , act. . . yea then a man should be a member of many churches , yea of all christian churches in the world ; for he is to love them , and beare heartie affection to them all ; the true members of the churches in england are united in heartie affection , to the churches in scotland , in holland , in france , in new-england , &c. and yet they are not members of all these churches , nor subject to their censures as members are . but the reason of that is because they doe not dwell among them in the same towne . neither would habitation with them in the same towne , make a man a member of the church there , if there be no more then so . suppose saul to have dwelt in the same house afore his conversion in which he dwelt after , which is not unpossible nor unlikely ; yet we see he was no member of the church at hierusalem , afore his conversion , no nor of some time after , though he might have dwelt in an house in the midst of the christians , and church-members there . the members of the dutch and french churches in london , or other townes in england , are not members of the english-congregations or churches , no more then the english are of theirs , and yet they dwell promiscuously together in the same streete of the same towne . towne-dwelling would not make a man a free-man of a company in london , or some other corporation ; for many others dwell in the towne with them ; yea it may be in the same streete , that are not free of their company , and so it is in this case . but the reason why such as dwell in towne with the church , are not members thereof , may be , because they frequent not their . assemblies . idiots and infidells might come into the publick meetings among the corinthians , cor. . , , . yet idiots and infidells were not therefore members of the church . and saul after his conversion might have come in among the church in time of publick duties , and have seene and heard all that they had done : yet this would not have made him of one body with them . some indians , moores , and other naturall persons come into our meetings in new-england , some of their owne accord , and others by the command or counsell of their masters and governours yet no man can say , that all these are hereby made church-members . wherefore seeing neither conversion , nor loving affection , nor cohabitation , nor coming into their meetings , doth joyne a man as a member of the visible church ( for some men have all these , and yet are not members , and others are sometimes members of the visible churches , and yet want some of these , are hypocrites and want sound conversion ) it remaineth therefore that as sound conversion makes a man fit matter for a church ; so profession of his faith , and of his subjection to the gospel , and the churches approbation , and acceptance of him ( which is the summe of church-covenant ) is the formall cause that gives him the being of a member . but joyning doth not alway signifie joyning in covenant ; philip joyned to the eunnuchs chariote , and dust to mens feete , act. . . & luke , . and yet there was no covenant , and therefore men may joyne to the church without any covenant . the word indeed may expresse any close joyning , whether naturall , ( as the branch is joyned to the vine , or an arme or other member to the body ) or artificiall , as when two stickes were joyned to become one in ezekiels hand , ezek. . or when carpenters or masons doe joyne pieces of stone or timber together , to make one house , neh. . . ezr. . . but is not onely the force of the word that is stood upon . but when joyning is used to expresse such joyning , wherein a man voluntarily takes on him a new relation , there it alwayes implyes a covenant , whether the relation be morall and civill , or religious and ecclesiasticall : we speake of voluntary relation , for there are naturall relations , as betweene parents and children : and these need no covenant , there is no covenant to make a man a parent , or a childe ; there are also violent relations , as between conquerour and captives , and in these there is no covenant neither ; but others are voluntary , and these alwayes imply a covenant , and are founded therein , whether they be morall and civill ( as between husband and wife , pro. . . between master and servants , luk. . . between prince and subject , between partners in trade , chro. . , , . where the covenant or agreement is , that men shall bare such a share of charges , and receive such a share of profits : ) or religious , as between minister and people , between the church and the members : all these are done by way of covenant . a man cannot joyne himselfe to a woman as her husband , but by way of covenant : a man cannot joyne himselfe to another as a servant , or apprentise , but by way of covenant ; and so may we say of all the rest ; nor into any body corporate , but by the same way and means . if men be united into a body politick or incorporate , a man cannot be said to be joyned to them by meere heartie affection , unlesse withall he joynes himselfe unto them by some contract or covenant . now of this nature is every particular church , a body incorporate , cor. . . yee are the body of christ , &c. and hath power to cast out , cor. . . and to forgive and receive in penitents , cor. . . as a body incorporate ; and therefore he that will joyne unto them , must doe it by way of covenant or agreement ; and so this answer to this objection , may be a fourth argument to prove the point in hand , that joyning in covenant is that which makes a man , a member of a church . all voluntary relations , all relations which are neither naturall nor violent , are entred into by way of covenant . but he that joynes into a church as a member , or enters into a church , doth take upon him such a relation ; therefore joyning ▪ to a church as a member , is by way of covenant . a fifth argument may be drawne from the power which all churches , officers and members , have over all their members in the lord. if all churches , officers , and members , have power in the lord over all their members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to make a man a member of a church , but the former is true , therefore the latter is true also . the assumption in this argument , that all churches have power over their members , is proved from cor. . , . . where the apostle reproveth the corinthians for suffering the incestuous man amongst them , and commands them to deliver him to satan , and cast him out from amongst them . now this he would not have done , if they had had no power over him , or if there had been any roome for them to say , wee have nothing to doe with him , wee have no power over him . and the same is prooved in other scriptures also ; as , mat. . . psal . . . , , . and the consequence of the major proposition , viz. that then members doe engage themselves by covenant , is proved by this reason ; that churches have no power over such as have not engaged themselves by covenant , and committed power unto them , by professing to be subject to all the ordinances of christ amongst them . the truth whereof may appeare by two reasons : first , because all christians have power and right , jure divino , to choose their owne officers to whom they commit their soules , act. . & . & . . where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , imports choosing by election : and so the word is used and translated , cor. . . he was chosen by the churches , &c. it is not ministeriall gifts that makes a man a minister to every church , nor investeth him with spirituall power over them , nor though he dwell amongst them , unlesse they call him , and he accept of that call : and as they have power to choose their officers , so likewise to choose their brethren according to god , rom. . . now if they have power to choose their officers and brethren , then none can have power over them as officers and brethren , without their owne consent , and whom they never chose , nor promised by any covenant or engagement to be subject to the lord. secondly , if the church should exercise any act of church-power over such a man as never entred into covenant with them ( suppose to excommunicate him for whoredome or drunkennesse , or the like ) the man might protest against their act , and their sentence , as coram non judice , and they could not justifie their proceedings , if indeed there have passed no covenant or engagement between him and them . if he shall say , you have nothing to doe to passe sentence or censure upon me , i am none of your church , but of another church ; suppose in holland , in france , &c. and i am onely here now for merchandise sake , or upon some other occasion : what shall they say to stop his mouth , if there never passed any covenant between him and them . but ministers have power over the people by the word of god , heb. . . thes . . . tim. . . and not by mens engaging themselves by covenant . but what is it that makes men ministers to such a people , officers to such a church , or maketh them sheepe of my flocke ? is it not those scriptures that makes every man a pastour , or teacher , or ruler to a people , unlesse they call him to that office ; and then in so doing they covenant and engage themselves to be subject to him in the lord , and then those scriptures take hold on them . one might as well say , it is not the covenanting of a wife to her husband that gives him power over her , but the word of god ; for as the word of god commands people to obey their ministers , so it commands wives to be subject to their husbands , ephes . . . and yet all men know , a man cannot take this woman for his ▪ wife but by covenant . so that if shee once makes her selfe a wife by her owne voluntary covenant , then the word of god takes hold on her , and bindes her to doe the duties of a wife : but if shee ▪ hath made no covenant , the man hath no power over her as her husband , neither is shee his wife ; so if men once make themselves members of such a church , sheepe of such a mans flocke , by their own voluntary covenant , then the word of god takes hold of them , and bindes them to doe the duties of members to their fellow-brethren , and of people to their pastours or ministers . but if they never chose such a man to be their minister , nor covenanted to be subject to him in the lord , he then can have no power over them as a minister unto them , because they have right to chose their owne ministers . a sixth argument may be taken from the distinction that is between members , and not members . if there be by the word of god a distinction , between members of the church and such as are no members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to the being of a member ; but the former is true , as appeares cor. . . some are within , and may be judged by the church , and others are without , and may not ▪ and therefore the latter is true also . and the reason of the consequence is because there is nothing else without this joyning in covenant , that can sufficiently distinguish them ; it is not faith and grace in their hearts , for some men are members of the visible church , and yet have no grace , and others may have grace , and yet be no members , and therefore this is not the thing that doth distinguish them , nor is it affection , nor cohabitation , nor every approbation of the word of god , and the wayes of his church , nor comming into their assemblies to heare the word ; but these things were touched before , and therefore may be here the more briefly passed over . and so much shall suffice to have spoken of the second particular , concerning the use of church-covenant , that it is by joyning therein that a particular person becomes a member of a church . but here it will be needfull to remove sundry objections , which may seeme to some to be of great weight against church-covenant , that so by the removing of them , the truth may be the more cleared , to fuller satisfaction , if it be the will of god. church-covenant is a terme that is not found in scripture . first , so is sacrament , trinitie , &c. and yet those termes may be lawfully used , because the thing meant thereby is found . secondly , but seeing the covenant is between the lord and his church , as the two parties that are confederate , it is all one whether it be called the lords covenant , or the church-covenant : as when mamre , aver , & eschol were confederate with abraham , gen. . . might not one truely say , abraham was confederate with them ? relatives doe mutually put and establish one another . thirdly , the scripture allowes both the lords covenant with the church , eze. . . & the peoples covenant or saints covenant , or churches covenant with him , deut. . . psal . . . jer. . . fourthly , there is good reason for both the words ; both the lords covenant , and the church-covenant , because both are confederate ; and for that of church-covenant , there is this reason also , viz. to distinguish it from other covenants , as a marriage-covenant , pro. . . and a brotherly covenant , sam. . . the church-covenant being thus called not onely because they are a church , or members thereof that make it , but also because they enter into it in reference to church-estate and church-duties : the duties which they bind themselves unto in this covenant being such especially as concern a church and the members thereof . but this church-covenant puts some disparagement upon the covenant of grace , which every beleever is already entred into with god , and seeme to charge the same with insufficiency ; for every second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , heb. . . . a second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , where the covenants are contrary one to another , as the covenant of grace , and the covenant of works are , and so it is most true , that the bringing in of the free covenant of grace did argue that righteousnes and life could not be attained by the law , or covenant of works ; for if there had been a law given which could have given life , verily righteousnesse should have been by the law. gal. . . rom. . . . but if it be the same covenant that is renewed or made againe , though upon a new occasion , no man can say that entring into the same the second time , or a third , or a fourth , doth disanull the first , or cast disparagement upon the same . the covenant of works given to adam was not blamed or faulted , because it was renewed in sinai . the covenant of grace was first given to adam in paradise after his fall , afterward to abraham , then to the people of israel under types and shadows ; and againe after the coming of christ in the flesh ; yet none of these doth disanull the former , or argue the same to be faulty ; and the reason is , because it is still the same covenant though renewed upon new occasions ; and in some particulars in some other manner . and the like we say concerning church-covenant , or the covenant which a man makes when he enters into the church , viz. that it is not another covenant contrary to the covenant of grace , which every beleever is brought into at his first conversion , but an open profession of a mans subjection to that very covenant , specially in the things which concerne church estate , into which estate the man is now entring . it is not lawfull to make such a covenant as the church-covenant , because it is not in our power to keep it , and we do not know whether god will give us power . this ground is very true , that no man hath power of himselfe to any thing that good is , but all a mans power and abilitie must come of god through christ , . cor. . . phil. . . joh. . . but the inference is not good , that therefore it should be unlawfull to ento into church-covenant : for . by the same reason , all promises are unlawfull , and all covenants whatsoever ; as the covenant of marriage , the covenant of service , yea and the personall covenant of grace , when a particular soule promiseth faith and new obedience ; for there is none of these , no not the covenant of marriage , which a man is able of himself to keep , as the adultery of david and bathsheba , among others , doth plainly prove . . god hath promised to give power to them that in self-deniall seek it of him , and trust to his promise for it . ezek. . . jer. . . rom. . . jer. . . the true inference therefore from this ground , from mans disabilitie to performe were this , that therefore a man should not enter into church covenant in his owne strength , for that was peters fault in promising not to deny christ , but to die with him rather : but church-covenant , as also all other promises , should be entred into , in an humble looking up to christ jesus for help and assistance to performe . thou therefore my sonne , be strong in the grace that is in christ jesus , . tim. . . god disalloweth covenants of mans making ( and so our church-covenant ) in those words , but not by thy covenant . ezek. . . god doth not reprove them there for making covenant , for then he were contrary to himselfe , who elsewhere called them to do it , exod. . deut. . and commended them for it , psal . . . yea and in that very place of ezek. . acknowledgeth a covenant betweene him and them , ver . . . but the meaning is , he would do them good , but not for their good keeping the covenant of works , for they had very sinfully broken it , ver . but even as he saith elsewhere , not for their sakes , or for their righteousnesse , ezek. . . deut. . , , . but what force is there in this arguing , viz. if god will do us good , but not for our good keeping the covenant of works , then it is not lawfull to promise obedience to the covenant of grace , in such things as concerne church estate ; all men may easily see that here is a plaine non sequitur . this entring into covenant may keep out many good men from joyning to the churches , because they are not satisfied about it : and therefore it is better laid aside . it is not impossible , but good men may for a time be unsatisfied about it , till they understand the nature and use of it , and yet the thing be warrantable enough for all that in the sight of god ; the tribes were troubled at the altar set up upon the banks of jordan by the two tribes and an halfe , till they understood the intent and use of it , and for what purpose it was erected : and then they were satisfied . josh . . and the same may be said of peters eating with the gentiles , which at the first was very offensive to them of the circumcision , till they understood what peter had to say for his defence therein , and then they rested well satisfied , act. . but if men understand what the church-covenant is , there is no reason that good men should be troubled at it ; it being nothing else but a promise of obedience unto the gospel of christ , or of such duties as the gospel requireth of all christians in church-estate : for , will good men refuse to obey the gospel , or submit to the ordinances of christ ? or will they refuse to professe and promise so much ? if a man understand what it is , and what we meane by it , and yet refuse to enter into it when he hath opportunitie thereto , such refusing is no part of his goodnesse , but is to be reckoned amongst his corruptions ; it is ignorance at the best , and if not so , then it may be perversenesse of will , or some want of will to performe obedience to the gospel . and surely there is smal hope that such would yeeld subjection and obedience to the gospel , who do refuse to professe or promise it . but the scripture , act. . . tels of joyning to the church without any covenant . for it was not possible that . should enter into covenant in one day . two things may be said in answer to this objection . first , that . were not so many , but that joyning in covenant might easily be done by them all , in one day . for , . it was at penticost , at which time of the yeer the dayes were at the longest : and , . the scripture tels us , that david made a covenant with all the tribes of israel in one day , . sam. , , . the articles of the covenant betweene david and the tribes , and so betweene this . and the lord might be openly declared , and they both the one and the other might by some signe or other , expresse their consent thereunto in one day . secondly , as joyning in covenant is a thing that might be done , so it is more then probable that indeed it was done , by those . soules for it is said , ver . . that they gladly received the word , that is , they openly professed that they did with all their hearts receive it , for this receiving of the word is noted as a condition , upon which they were admitted to baptisme , and therefore it was not onely an inward receiving of it in their hearts , but also an open professing that they did receive it ; for an inward receiving of it in their hearts , without an open professing thereof outwardly , would not have been sufficient for the admitting of them unto baptisme . now this word which they received was an exhortation to repentance for sinne , and to faith in the promise , ver . . and to obedience in severing themselves from others , and saving themselves from that untoward generation , ver . . and therefore when they openly professed , that they gladly received this word , there was an open professing of their repentance for sinne , ver . . of their faith in the promise , and of obedience to the commandement , which is nothing else , but the very summe of church-covenant : yea , and further , their very preparation to this repentance , faith and obedience , in that true compunction and sorrow of soul , was also openly made manifest . ver . . but yet there would not be such long narrations , of every one severally as now are used , when men do enter into church-covenant , when each one makes a good long speech , in the profession of his faith and repentance . when the thing is certaine , as was shewed before , that they did openly professe repentance , faith and obedience , it is not difference in the length or largenesse of their speeches in expressing of themselves , that can make any difference in the thing : majus & minus non diversificant speciem . and we denie not but they might be briefer , because there was not such need they should be long in regard of some difference betweene them and us , their time and ours : first there were the apostles present to heare their confessions , and to judge thereof , who were men of very good discerning , and therefore briefer expressing of mens selves might suffice ; whereas the best christians , yea the best ministers amongst us are not to be compared to the apostles ; and therefore as we need more time for study , and for preparation for our sermons then they did : so likewise we need more time to heare , and try the soundnesse of mens repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ . yet this we may adde withall , that if the apostles and those primative christians , men of such excellent discerning were sometimes deceived , and could not alwayes so discern , but that some hypocrites would creep into the church : as the example of ananias and saphira doth witnesse ; how much more need is there , that the churches of god in these dayes ( being far inferiour to them ) should be very watchfull and circumspect in trying the spirituall estates of them that offer to come into the church ? secondly , their times also differed from ours : for their christianitie was a matter of reproach and danger of excommunication , joh. . . of imprisonment , act. . . and . . and the like . and therefore to see men now to make open profession of their faith in christ jesus , whose servants and disciples were so hated , and who himselfe but a while before was crucified , this was not an ordinarie matter : and therefore in words , men might be the briefer when they came to be received into the church : but our times in new england do not persecute christ , and christians , and christian churches , but countenance them , and protect them ; and therefore there is more need now to be more studious in examination of mens estates when they offer themselves for church members : when the jews were in favour , many of the people of the land became jews , esth . . . but why is there so little proofe of this church-covenant in the new testament ? . suppose the new testament said nothing of it , yet it might have ground sufficient from the scriptures of the old testament ; for if it was gods revealed will in those dayes , that a companie should become a church , and particular persons become members of that church by way of covenant , we may be sure it is so now likewise , unlesse covenanting were peculiar to the jewish paedigogie ; indeed if it had never been used in those times , but were some new ordinance , peculiar to the dayes of the new testament , in such cases also a ground from the scriptures of the new testament were necessarie , as there is in all such things wherein there is any change or variation , from what was used in those times afore christ , as that there should not be nationall churches , but congregationall , and not one visible church , but many , that there should be baptisme , and the lords supper : these are matters that are not found in the old testament , nor were appointed to be used in those dayes , and therefore we must have warrant for them in the new , and so we have . but for the covenant it is otherwise , it is no new ordinance peculiar to the dayes of the gospel , nor any leviticall ordinance peculiar to the jewish pedigogie ; and therefore the scriptures of the old testament that give warrant for it , may be sufficient as hath been shewed afore . . and yet there is not wanting good warrant for it , that it ought to be used , in the dayes of the new testament . for , . the prophets do foretell it , isa . . , . and . . and jer. . . ezek. . . and in sundrie other places , to omit the rest at this time , because some of them have been spoken of before ; onely let those words of isa . . . be well considered , and see if they do not plainly hold forth that in the dayes of the new testament , men should openly professe their faith , and solemnly bind themselves by covenant , to be the lords people , one shall say , i am the lords , and another shall call himself by the name of jacob , and another shall subscribe with his hand , and sirname himself by the name of israel . these words are so plaine for open professing of faith in the lord , and open binding of mens selves by covenant unto him , as we conceive nothing need be more . . the apostles do sufficiently testifie , that such a thing was practised in their dayes , else how should we understand that fellowship in the gospel in its full latitude and breadth , phil. . . if this combining into church-fellowship be no part thereof ; yea when it is said , they continued stedfastly , or as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , may well be translated , they strongly did cleave together , or hold together in such a fellowship , which was not preaching and hearing the doctrine of the apostles , nor sacraments , nor prayer , but a thing distinct from all these . if this combining themselves into a spirituall fellowship and societie of church-state be no part thereof , we know not how to understand it , nor what that fellowship should meane ; if doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer had not been particularly mentioned , in the same place , it might have been thought that the fellowship in which they so steadfastly clave together had been no more , but their coming together to observe these said ordinances , and their communion therein . but when all these are particularly mentioned , and fellowship mentioned among them , as a thing distinct from the rest , we may not confound it with the rest . we might as well say , that by doctrine is meant sacraments , and by sacraments is meant prayer ; as to say that by fellowship is meant nothing else but the exercise of doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer . and if these as they are distinctly named , be distinct ordinances , and may not be confounded , then fellowship being named in the same manner imports something distinct from them all , and may not be confounded with them , nor with any of them , no more then the other may be confounded one with another . and if so , then as this fellowship may import , the communion of their gift and goods one for the helpe of another , so it must first of all imply a combining of themselves into church-state by mutuall agreement , consent , or covenant . furthermore , when the apostle writeth , that by experience of the corinthians liberall contribution to the poore saints , men glorified god for their professed subjection to the gospel of christ , . cor. . . he plainly imployes thereby , that the corinthians had made a profession or promise of such subjection to the gospel as did comprehend this particular of distributing to the necessitie of the saints , among other things . and their liberall distribution which he there speaks of , was looked at as one point of their reall performance of that subjection to the gospel , which they had before professed , and promised . now the church-covenant is nothing else , but the professing or promising of such subjection , and therefore this place is another proofe of church-covenant . besides , it hath been shewed afore in argument . that those places which speake of being added to the church , of joyning , or assaying to joyne unto the church , act. . . and . and . are not expounded according to the full meaning of them , when they are understood of any other joyning , if joyning in covenant be left out . and therefore the scriptures of the new testament do beare good witnesse unto church-covenant , though , as we said before , the scriptures of the old testament might have been sufficient if the new testament had spoken nothing of it . but baptisme makes men members of the visible church , and therefore the covenant is needlesse . this is answered in the answer to the fourth of the . questions , where it is shewed at large that baptisme ●● a seale of the covenant betweene god and the church , but neither makes the church , nor members of the church , nor alwayes so much as proves men to be members . this church-covenant is a late devise , and was not known in ancient time , and therefore is to be rejected . first , true antiquitie is that of the scriptures . now sith church covenant is warranted by the scripture , as hath been shewed before in this discourse , it cannot be charged to want true antiquitie . when the papists are wont to charge the doctrine of protestants with novelty , and such as was never heard of before luther , the orthodoxe are wont to answer , that if the doctrine do not agree with the scripture , then let it be condemned for noveltie ; and if it do , it is warranted by the best antiquitie , even the testimonie of god himself who is the antient of dayes : our faith , faith doctor white , is in all points the same that is contained in the scripture , and so consequently of the same antiquitie : and therefore all they that say it came up but of late , must first prove it contrary to the word of god , or else hold their peace . white , way , . . and the same we say in this particular of the church-covenant . secondly , and yet they that search the stories and writers of the times and ages next after the apostles , may find some testimonie of church-covenant in those dayes : for instance , justine martyr in his apol. . makes mention of three things which were required of all that were admitted into the church as members , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is regeneration , and soundnesse in the faith , and a promise to walke in obedience to the gospel . and generally this was the practise of all those times , that never any man was admitted to baptisme , nor his children neither , but they put him to answer three questions , abrenuntios ? whereto he answered , abrenuntio . credis ? whereto his answer was , credo : and spondes ? to which he answered , spondes . so that here was an open declaration of his repentance from dead works , and of the soundnesse of his faith , in the two first particulars , and an open binding himself by covenant or promise to walke according to the gospel , in the third . but much needs not to be said in this point , unto them that do acknowledge scripture antiquitie to be sufficient , though after times should be found to swerve from the rules and patterns that are therein contained . if church-covenant be so necessarie , then all the reformed churches are to be condemned as no churches ; for they have no such covenant . they that have knowne those churches , not onely by their writings , and confessions of their faith , in synods and otherwise ; but also by living amongst them , and being eye-witnesses of their order , do report otherwise of them , viz. that they are combined together by solemne covenant with god and one another . zepperus , speaking of the manner , used in the reformed churches , in admitting the children of church-members to the lords table , when they came to age , and have been sufficiently catechised , and instructed in the doctrine of religion ▪ tells us , that such children are admitted to the lords table , by publick profession of faith , and entring into covenant . consuetum est , saith l●e , ut qui per atatem inque doctrinâ catecheticâ profectum ad sacram coenam primum admittuntur , fidei confessionem coram totâ ecclesiâ publice edant per parentes aut qui parentum loco sunt , jussû ministri , in ecclesia conspectum producti : quòdque in illa confessione , per dei gratiam perstare , ac , juxta illam , vitam instituere , insuper etiam disciplina ecclesiasticae ultrò ac spoute suâ subjicere sese velint , spondeant atque stipulentur , polit. eccles . lib. . cap. . p. . that is , the manner is , that they who by reason of age and proficiencie in the doctrine of catechisme are first admitted to the lords supper , should publickly before the whole church make confession of their faith , being brought forth into the sight of the church by their parents , or them that are instead of parents , at the appointment of the minister ; and likewise should promise and covenant by the grace of god to continue in that faith which they have confessed , and to lead their lives according to it ; yea , and moreover to subject themselves freely and willingly to the discipline of the church . these words we see are full and plaine , that children are not in those churches received to the lords supper , without personall confession of faith , and entring into covenant before ; and if they tooke this course with children come to age , there is as much reason , or more , that the same course should be holden with men of yeers , when they are admitted members . and so the same zepperus , speaking of the consociation of churches amongst themselves by mutuall confederation , hath these words , which as they may be applyed to the combining of many churches , so may they be combining of many members of the same church , 〈◊〉 illa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quam in symbolo profite nunc apostolico , nihil aliud hic requirit , & vult , quam obligationem omnium ecclesiae membrorum & confoederationem , &c. that is , that communion of saints which we professe in the creed , doth require and meane nothing else but an obligation of all the members of the church , and a binding of them together by covenant . polit. eccles . li. c. . p . to these testimonies of z●pp●r●● , those words may be added of mr. parker our own countreyman , a man of singular note for learning and holinesse , who also himselfe lived sometimes beyond sea in the reformed churches , and there ended his dayes , so that we may safely give the more credit to his testimonie , he having so good meanes fully to know the state and order of those churches . now he speaketh of a solennis forma absque quâ in ecclesiae alicujus communionem nullus ritè recipitur : of a solemne forme , without which no man is rightly received into the communion of the church , hath these words . hic mos ille est reformatarum ecclesiarum non solum in lapsis restituendis , sed in extra●eis , i●ò quibuscunque recipiendis qui ad habitandum alicubi consident , etsi fortè in ecclesiâ illius loci quo ante commo● abantur , juxta hanc formam admissi prius fuerant . examinat presbyterium , plebs consentit , quisque testes vita sua secum adfert , vel testimonia sal●em : publicatur nomen cuiusque competentis pro con●io●e , admonetur quisque siquid habeat quod excipiat , ut denunciet presbyteris . si nihil contrà adferatur , admittitur quidem , sed non nisi solerni pactione cum deo & cum ecclesiâ ▪ spondet verò ecclesiae ▪ se ambulaturum prout sanctam illam communionem decet ; disciplinae illius ecclesiae subjacere velle , se fratribus illius communionis invigilaturum juxta christi praeceptum , matth. . . ut praeveniantur sanentur que scandala , & illi ad studium bonorum operum provehantur . that is , this is the manner of the reformed churches , not onely in restoring such as have fallen , but in admitting of strangers , yea of all whoever they be , who do sit down in any place for habitation , though perhaps they have been formerly admitted after the same manner in the church where they have formerly dwelt ; the presbytery doth examine , the people do consent , every man brings with him witnesses of his life , or at least-wise testimonies : the name of each one that desires to be a member , is published in the assembly , every one is admonished if he have any exception against the party , to bring it to the presbytery . if nothing be brought against him , then indeed he is admitted ; but yet no otherwise then by a solemne covenant with god and the church ; and to the church he promiseth that he will walk as becometh that holy fellowship , that he will be subject to the discipline of that church , that he will watch over the brethren of that communion , according to the command of christ , mat. . . that offences may be prevented and healed , &c. polit. eccles lib. cap. . § . pag. , . much more he hath to the same purpose in that place , alledging sundry canons and decrees of synods of reformed churches , wherein they have determined that none should be received into their churches , but by this way of solemne covenant . and others that have lived amongst them may have been eye-witnesses that this is their usuall practise . but what shall be said of the congregations in england , if churches must be combined by covenant ? doth not this doctrine blot out all those congregations out of the catalogue of churches ? for what ever covenant may be found in the reformed churches in other parts , yet it is plaine that the english have none . though we deny not but the covenant in many of those congregations is more implicite and not so plaine as were to be desired ; ( and what is amisse in them , in their materialls , or in want of explicite combining of pure matter , or many of their wayes , wee will not take upon us to defend ) yet we hope we may say of them with master parker , polit. eccles . lib . cap. . § . pag. . non abost ea realis & substantialis ( quanquam magis quàm par●rat implicita ) coitio in foedus , eaque voluntaria professio fidei substantialis : quâ ( deo gratia ) essentiam ecclesiae idque visibilis hacusque sartam tectam in angliâ conservavit ; that is , there wants not that reall and substantiall comming together , ( or agreeing in covenant , though more implica●e then were meete ) and that substantiall profession of faith , which ( thanks be to god ) hath preserved the essence of visible churches in england unto this day . the reasons why wee are loath to say , that the congregations in england are utterly without a covenant , are these : first , because there were many christian churches in england in the apostles time , or within a while after , as master fox sheweth at large , act. & mon. lib. . beginning pag . where he reporteth out of gildas , that england received the gospel in the time of tiberius the emperour , under whom christ suffered , and that joseph of arimathea was sent of philip the apostie from france to england about the yeare of christ . and remained in england all his time , and so he with his fellowes layd the first foundation of christian faith among the britaine people , and other preachers and teachers comming afterward , confirmed the same and increased it . also the said master fox reporteth out of tertullian , that the gospel was dispearsed abroad by the sound of the apostles into many nations , and amongst the rest into britaine , yea into the wildest places of britaine , which the romans could never attaine unto : and alledgeth also out of ni●●phorus , that simon zelotes did spread the gospel to the west ocean , and brought the same into the iles of britaine : and sundry other proofes he there hath for the same point . now if the gospel and christian religion were brought into england in the apostles times , and by their means , it is like that the english churches were then constituted by way of covenant , because that was the manner of constituting churches in the apostles time , as also in the times asore christ , as hath been shewed from the scripture before in this discourse . and if christian congregations in england were in those times combined by covenant , then eternitie of gods covenant is such , that it is not the interposition of many corruptions that may arise in after times that can disanull the same , except when men wilfully breake covenant and reject the offers of the gospel through obstinacy , which we perswade our selves they are not come unto : and consequently the covenant remaines which hath preserved the essence of churches to this day ; though the mixture of manifold corruptions , have made the covenant more implicite then were meete . secondly , because there want no good records ( as may be seene in seldens history of tithes ) to prove that in former times in england it was free for men to pay their tithes and oblations where themselves pleased : now this paying of tithes was accounted as a dutie of people to their minister , or sheepe to their pastour : and therefore seeing this was by their owne voluntary agreement and consent , their joyning to the church as members thereof , & to the ministery thereof as sheepe of such a mans flock , was also by their owne voluntary agreement and consent : and this doth imply a covenant ●● was not the precincts of parishes that did limit men in those dayes , but their owne choice . thirdly , those questions and answers ministred at baptisme , spoken of before , ( viz. do●st thou renounce ? i doe renounce : doest thou beleeve ? i doe beleeve : doest thou promise ? i doe promise ) as they were used in other places , so were they also in england , and are unto this day , though not without the mixture of sundry corruptions . now this doth imply a covenant . and when the children came to age , they were not to be admitted to the lords supper , before they had made personall confession of their owne faith , and ratified the covenant which was made at their baptisme by their parents , which course indeed afterward did grow into a sacrament of confirmation , but that was an abuse of a good order . if here it be said , that the members of the parishionall assemblies are not brought in by their owne voluntary profession , but by the authority and proclamation of the prince , and therefore they have no such covenant . the answer is , that the christian prince doth but his dutie when he doth not tollerate within his dominions any open idolatry , or the open worship of false gods by baptized persons , but suppresseth the same : and likewise when he gives free libertie to the exercise of all the ordinances of true religion , according to the minde of christ , with countenance also and encouragement unto all those whose hearts are willingly bent thereunto , ezra . . . . & . . and therefore this practise of his cannot overthrow the freenesse of mens ioyning in church ▪ communion , because one dutie cannot oppose nor contradict another . and suppose that this course of the magistrate should seeme to be a forcing of some to come in for members who were unfit , ( in which case it were not justifiable ) yet this doth not hinder the voluntary subjection of others , who with all their hearts desired it . when the israelites departed out of aegypt , there went a mixed multitude with them , many going with them that were not israelites indeed , exod. . and in the dayes of mordecay and hesther , many of the people of the lands became jewes , when the jewes were in favour and respect , est . . . and so joyned to them not of their owne voluntary minde , nor of any sincere heart towards god , but meerely for the favour or ●eare of men ; yet this forced or seined joyning of some could not hinder those that were israelites indeed from being israelites , nor make the jewes to be no jewes , no church-members . and the same may be said in this case , suppose the magistrates proclamation should be a cause , or an occasion rather , of bringing some into the church , who came not of their owne voluntary minde , but for feare , or for obteining favour , yet this cannot hinder , but others might voluntarily and freely covenant to be subject to the gospel of christ : such subjection and the promise of it being the thing which themselves did heartily desire , though the magistrate should have said nothing in it . if any shall hereupon inferre , that if the parishionall assemblies be churches , then the members of them may be admitted to church priviledges in new england , before they joyne to our churches : such one may finde his answer in the answer to the tenth of the thirty-two questions ; whereunto we doe referre the reader for this point . onely adding this , that this were contrary to the judgement and practise of the reformed churches , who doe not admit a man for member without personall profession of his faith , and joyning in covenant , though he had formerly been a member of a church in another place , as was shewed before out of master parker . lastly , if any say , that if these reasons prove the english congregations to have such a covenant as proves them to be churches , then why may not rome , and the assemblies of papists goe for true churches also ? for some man may thinke that the same things may be said for them that here in answer to this eleventh objection are said for the parishes in england : such one must remember two things : first , that we doe not say simply , a covenant makes a company a true church , but ( as was said before ) a covenant to walke in such wayes of worship to god and edification of one another , as the gospel of christ requireth . for who doubts ▪ but there may be an agreement among theeves , pro. . a confederation among gods enemies , psal . . a conspiracy among the arabians , the ammonites and ashdodites , to hinder the building of hierusalem , neh. . , . and yet none of these are made true churches by such kind of confederacies or agreements . and so wee may say of the assemblies of papists , especially since the counsell of trent . if there be any agreement or confederacy among them , it is not to walke in the wayes of the gospell , but in wayes contrary to the fundamentall truths of the gospel , as idolatry in worship , heresie in doctrine , and other antichristian pollutions and corruptions : and therefore if they combined in these things , such combinations will never prove them true churches . the church is the pillar and ground of truth , tim. . . but the religion of papists is so farre from truth , that whosoever liveth and beleeveth according to it , without repentance , cannot be saved . witnesse their doctrine in the point of vilifying the scriptures , and in point of free-will , and of justification by works , of the popes supremacy , of the sacrifice of the masse , of worshipping of images , &c. in regard of which , and such like , the holy ghost saith , that their religion is a sea , become as the bloud of a dead man , and every soule in that sea dyeth , rev. . . and therefore agreement in such a religion will never prove them to be true churches ; nor any assemblies of arrians , antitrinitaries , anabaptists , or famelists , supposing them also to be combined by covenant among themselves . but now for the assemblies in england , the case is farre otherwise ; for the doctrine of the articles of religion which they professe , and which they promise to hold and observe ( though some things are amisse in some of those articles , and though many persons live contrary in their lives ) yet the doctrine is such that whosoever beleeveth , and liveth according to it , shall undoubtedly be saved , and many thousands have been saved therein ▪ and therefore assemblies united by covenant to observe this doctrine may be true churches , when the assemblies of papists and others may be false , although they also were combined by covenant : the reason of the difference rising from the difference that is in the doctrine and religion which they severally professe , and by covenant binde themselves to observe , the one being fundamentally corrupt , and consequently pernicious : the other in the fundamentall points orthodoxall and sound . secondly , it must be remembred also ( which was intimated before ) that if fundamentall corruptions be professed in with impenitency and obstinacy , then god may disanull the covenant on his part , and give a bill of divorce to such a people , jere. . . now experience and the scripture also doth witnesse of the jesuited and trent-papists , that they repented not of the workes of their hands , of worshipping devills , and idolls of gold , &c. neither repented they of their murthers , nor of their sorceries , nor of their fornications , nor of their thefts , rev. . , . but now for the parish assemblies in england , we hope that we may safely say , they doe not sinne of obstinacy , but of ignorance , having not been convinced ( and many of them never having had means to be convinced ) of the corruptions that are amongst them , in respect of their constitution , and worship , and ministery , and so the covenant remaining among them , may prove them to be churches , when it cannot stand the papists in like stead , they being impenitent and obstinate : which we doe not speake to justifie the parishes altogether , as if there were not dangerous corruptions found in them , nay rather ( the lord be mercifull to the sinnes of his people ) wee may lament it with teares , that in respect of their members and ministery , in respect of their worship and walkings , in many of those assemblies there are found such apparent corruptions , as are justly grievous to a godly soule , that is enlightened to discerne them , and greatly displeasing to the lord , and indeed had need to be repented of betime , least otherwise the lord remove the candlesticke and unchurch them , rev. . . in a word , the corruptions remaining are just causes of repentance and humiliation : but yet in as much as the articles of religion , which they professe , containe such wholesome doctrine , that whosoever beleeveth and walketh according thereunto , in sinceritie , shall undoubtedly be saved , and in as much as the corruptions are not persisted in with obstinacy , therefore wee deny not but they have the truth of churches remaining . but this opinion of church-covenant , is holden by none but the brownists , or those of the separation , and therefore it is not to be received . this ground cannot be made good , that none but they of the separation are for church-covenant , for all the reformed churches generally , as was shewed before in answer to objection the tenth , are for it in their judgement & practise ; and shall all they be condemned for * brownists , or maintaining unlawfull separation from the church ? also master parker and doctor ames , men of our owne nation , famous for holinesse and learning , and moderation , both of them plead for church-covenant , and yet neither of them were brownists , but bare witnesse against that riged separation . for doctor ames , his judgement of church-covenant may be seene in his medulla , theol. lib. . cap. . § , , . fideles non constitunt ecclesiam particularem , quamvis simul forsan plures in eodem loco conveniant aut vivant , nisi speciali vinculo intersese conjunguntur , &c. that is , beleevers doe not make a particular church , though perhaps there be many of them that meete ▪ together , and live in the same place , unlesse they be joyned together by some speciall bond amongst themselves : for so one church would many times be dissolved into many , and many churches confounded into one . now this bond is a covenant , either expressed or implicite , whereby beleevers do binde themselves particularly to performe all such duties , both towards god and mutually to one another , as pertaine to the nature of a church , and their edification . and thereupon no man is rightly admitted into the church , but by confession of his faith , and stipulation , or promise of obedience . these words doe plainely and fully shew his judgement of church-covenant , to be the very same that is held and practised in new-england at this day . and that he was not for that severitie and regiditie of separation , may be cleared from sundry of his workes , wherein he plainly and fully beares witnesse against the same , and namely , in his fresh suite against ceremonies , pag. . and in his second manuduction , wherein he purposely and at large deales in this argument of separation . sure it is master canne in his booke , wherein he goes about to prove the necessitie of separation from the non-conformists principles , doth professedly and expressely oppose himselfe against doctor ames in the point of separation , which shewes how farre the good doctor was from favouring that way , when they most zealously therein doe count him to be a speciall opposite of theirs , as indeed he was . and for master parker , his judgement of church-covenant was heard before in part ; where he so much approveth the practise of the reformed churches in this point . and much more may be seene of his judgement herein , in the sixteenth chap. of the third booke of his polit. ecclesiastica . and yet in the same place , and likewise lib . cap. . . of the same treatise he plentifully and plainly shewes his dislike of the wayes of separation , as is also acknowledged in an admonition to the reader , prefixed before that booke , by i. r. suo , suorumque nomine . so that this assertion appeares to be untrue , wherein it is said , that none but brownists and separatists doe approve of church-covenant . as for the inference from this ground , that therefore church-covenant should not be received , because it is pleaded for and practised by the separatists . we answer , that this will not follow , unlesse it could be proved , that the separatists hold no truth ; or if they hold a truth wee must not hold it , that so it may appeare wee differ from them ; either of which , it were unreasonable to affirme . if the papists hold sundry articles of faith , as that there is a unitie of the divine essence , and trinitie of persons , that jesus christ is god and man , and that true messiah that was promised , and the onely saviour of the world , and many such like , must wee deny these things because they are holden by the papists ? this were as unreasonable as to condemne the doctrine of the resurrection , because it was maintained by the pharisees , act. . . and so we say of church-covenant , holden and practised by them of the separation ; as also many other truths are maintained by them : no reason that truth should be refused , because the separatists maintaine it . when doctor bancroft in a sermon at pauls-crosse , had avouched that the superioritie of bishops above other ministers , is by gods owne ordinance , and to make the contrary opinion odious , affirmed that aerius persisting in it , was condemned for an heretique by the generall consent of the whole church , and that martin and his companions , doe maintaine the same opinion of aerius ; what saith learned doctor reinolds hereunto , in a letter to sir francis knolls , who required him to shew his judgement herein : touching martin , saith he , if any man behave himselfe otherwise then in discretion and charitie he ought , let the blame be laid where the fault is , and defend him not ; but if by the way he utter a truth , mingled with whatsoever else , it is not reason that that which is of god should be condemned for that which is of man : no more then the doctrine of the resurrection should be reproved , because it was maintained and held by the pharisees : wherefore removing the odious name of martin from that which is sinceritie and love , is to be dealt with , &c. and the very same doe wee say to them that would make church-covenant to be odious , because it is held by those of the seperation , who are commonly called brownists : if men behave themselves otherwise then they ought , we defend them not therein , but if they hold any truth mingled with whatsoever else , wee would not have that which is of god to be condemned , for that which is of man : truth should not be refused , because of other corruptions that may be found in them that hold it . if you with them hold church-covenant , you iustifie them in all their wayes of seperation and erronious opinions . not so , for many of them hold that there are no visible christians that stand members of the parishes in england , and that it is not lawfull to hold any private religious communion with such persons ; and that the parishionall assemblies are none of them true churches , and that it is not lawfull to hear any of those ministers to preach the word , none of which are justified at all by holding church-covenant , though they do hold the same ; there is no such necessarie and inseparable connexion betweene these opinions , and that of church-covenant , that he that holds this , must needs hold the other also . but the time hath been , when your selves did not hold church-covenant , as now you do ; when you were in england you were not of this mind , and therefore no marvell if your change since your coming to new england be suspected , and offensive . if you change your judgement and practise in this manner , god knows whether you may come at last , and therefore men may well be afraid of holding with you in this point , which your selves did not hold when you lived in your native countrey . some of us when we were in england , through the mercie of god , did see the necessitie of church-covenant ; and did also preach it to the people amongst whom we ministred , though neither so soone nor so fully as were meete , for which we have cause to be humbled , and to judge our selves before the lord. but suppose we had never knowne nor practised the same before our coming into this countrey , yet if it be a truth of god , there is no reason why we should shut our eyes against the light , when god holds it forth unto us , nor that others should be offended at us for receiving the same . for by the same reason men might still continue in their sinnes , and not make any progresse in knowledge and holinesse , that so they may not seeme unconstant , which were contrary to the scripture , wherein we are commanded nor to fashion our selves according to the former lusts of our ignorance . . pet. . . but to be changed , rom. . . and renued , ephes . . . and put off the old man , and put on the new , ephes . . yea to grow in grace and holinesse , . pet. . . and be stronger and stronger , job . . that our good workes may be more at the last , then at the first , revel . . . sure it is , the apostle tells the corinthians and ephesians , that the time had been when they were not the same men that now they are when he wrote unto them ; and yet he doth not blame them for leaving their former opinions or practise , but commends them for it , . cor. . . ephes . . . &c. and it is said of apollos an eloquent man , and mighty in the scripture , that when he came to ephesus the way of god was expounded unto him more perfectly by aquila and priscilla , whereas before he was instructed in the way of the lord , knowing onely the baptisme of john : yet this was no dispraise at all to him , that now upon better information he would change his judgement to the better , nor unto them that were the means thereof : act. . , . nullus pudor est ad maliura transire . the time hath been , ( and we may be humbled for it ) when we lived without god in the world , and some of us in many sinfull courses : and shall any be offended , because we are not still the same ? and when god called us from the wayes of sin and death , to the fellowship of his grace in christ ; yet some of us lived a long time in conformity to the ceremonies imposed in our native countrey , and saw not the evill of them . but when god did open our eyes , and let us see the unlawfulnesse thereof , we cannot see but it would have been a with-holding the truth in unrighteousnesse , and a great unthankfulnesse to god for light revealed to us , if we should still have continued in that course through an inordinate desire of seeming constant : and therefore it is not any just cause of offence that we have changed our judgement and practise in those things , when we once perceived the word of god to disallow them . indeed it hath been sometime objected against mr. cartwright , and others , that desired the reformation of the churches in england , in regard of discipline and church-order , that they which stood so much for reformation in discipline , did in after times adde and alter some things , beyond what they saw at first , and what themselves had formerly desited ; and that therefore being so murable , and inconstant in their apprehensions , they were not to be regarded , nor hearkened unto : to which objection mr. pa●k●r makes full answer in eccles . lib. . ca. . p. ▪ where he sheweth from the scripture , and the testimonie of bishop jewel , doctor reinolds , and others , that in the reformation of religion god brings not his servants into perfection in knowledge and zeale at the first , but by degrees , so as they grow and make progresse in these things in such wise , that their good works are more at the last then at the first , as was said of the church of thyatira , even as the man that had been blind , when christ ●● stored him to his sight , could at the first but see men like tr●… walking , and afterward saw every man cleerly ; and therefore●… is no good arguing to say these men have altered and correc●… such things from what their apprehensions were at first , and therefore they are not to be regarded . now if this be no good arguing against mr. cartwright , and those that in england have been studious of reformation ( as indeed it is not ) then it is no good argument against us in this m●●ter of church-covenant , to say we now hold and practise otherwise then we have done in former time . if any shall here reply , that change from conformity to the cerem●nies to worship god more purely is warranted by the word , and therefore not blame-worthy , and that the same may be said of the case of apollos , of the corinthians , and ephesians forementioned , and of cartwright , and the rest in his times . we answer , that this is true , and thereby it appears , that it is not simply the changing a mans opinion or practise that can be counted blame-worthy , or offensive , but changing without warrant of the word ; and therefore in point of church-covenant , the iss●● must not be whether we or others have formerly known and practised it , but whether it have ground from gods word ; for if it have ( as we hope have been proved before in this discourse ) then the observing of it , can be no cause of just offence unto others , not imputation of inconstancy to our selves , though in time past we had not had so much light as to discerne the necessitie and use thereof . the good lord pardon every one that prepareth his heart to seek god , though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary : and grant unto all his churches and servants ▪ that their love may abound yet more and more in knowledge , and in all judgement , that they may discerne the things that differ ▪ and approve the things that are excellent , and by his spirit of truth be led forward into all truth , till antichrist be utterly consumed with the breath of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his coming , and the holy city new jerusalem come down from god out of heaven , as a bride adorned for her husband the lambe , the lord jesus , to whom be all glory of affiance and service for ever . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e to. . to : . to : . object . answ . to . & . to . to . to . to . to . obj : answ : to . to . to . to . to . to . to . to to . to . t● . to . to . & . to . to . to . to . to . to . to . notes for div a -e object . answer . object . answer . object . answer . object . answer . argu. . object . . answer . obj. . answ . obj. . answer . argu. . argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . object . . answer . obj. . answ . obj. . answer . object . . answ . object . . answ . argu. . argu. . object . answer . argu. . object . . answer . object . . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . reply . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . obj. . answ . obj . ans● . obj. . answ . * by brownists and separatists you are to understād those of the riged separation . reply . answ . obje . . answ . reply . answ . a modest & brotherly ansvver to mr. charles herle his book, against the independency of churches. wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations, are friendly examined, and clearly answered. together, with christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke. all tending to declare the true use of synods, and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers, and censuring their offendors. by richard mather teacher of the church at dorchester; and william tompson pastor of the church at braintree in new-england. sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at cambridg to debate matters about church-government. mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a modest & brotherly ansvver to mr. charles herle his book, against the independency of churches. wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations, are friendly examined, and clearly answered. together, with christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke. all tending to declare the true use of synods, and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers, and censuring their offendors. by richard mather teacher of the church at dorchester; and william tompson pastor of the church at braintree in new-england. sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at cambridg to debate matters about church-government. mather, richard, - . tompson, william, d. . [ ], p. printed for henry overton in popes-head alley, london : . annotation on thomason copy: the second in has been crossed out; "march: ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng herle, charles, - . -- independency of scriptures of the independency of churches. congregational churches -- government -- early works to . councils and synods -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a modest & brotherly ansvver to mr. charles herle his book, against the independency of churches.: wherein his foure arguments for the gove mather, richard c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a modest & brotherly ansvver to mr. charles herle his book , against the independency of churches . wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations , are friendly examined , and clearly answered . together , with christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke . all tending to declare the true use of synods , and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers , and censuring their offendors . by richard mather teacher of the church at dorchester ; and william tompson pastor of the church at braintree in new-england . sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at cambridg to debate matters about church-government . london , printed for henry overton in popes-head alley , . reverend and deare sir , the right forme of church government being more searched into of late time then formerly , and your self amongst others having written for the governing power , or jurisdiction of synods , over particular churches : we therfore knowing our selves bound as well as others , to try all things , and hold fast that which is good , have considered as the lord hath holpen us ; those arguments of yours which are contained in your book , against the indepency of churches ; and not being satisfied therewith , your book being published in print ; we have therfore thought meet , in like fort to publish our answer , and in that way to shew unto your self and others , what yet hinders us , that we do not think your arguments to be convincing . in which attempt we have bin the more encouraged by your profession ( which we dare not but believe ) that in what you have written , you have aimed at verity , and not at victory ; wherof we are the rather perswaded , because we do perceive your whole discourse to be carried along without passion and bitternesse , in a spirit of meeknesse and love , which also we are willing to acknowledge before all men , to your just commendation , and the glory of that grace of god that gives you such an heart . and it is our hope , that sith you professe to aim at the truth , and do dispute with such a spirit , as if you meant so indeed ; that therfore it will not be unacceptable to you , if any weaknesse be discovered in those grounds wheron you build this perswasion , that in the present question , the truth doth stand on your side . and as your book doth breathe forth a spirit of meeknesse , ingenuity and love ; so we hope you will find , that we have aimed at the like in our answer ; which as we have written and now published it for the truths sake ; and for the help of those that cannot attaine unto larger , and more learned treatises about this subject ; so in speciall manner in love to your self , and our deare country men & friends , as in other places of lancashire , so in your parish of winwick , wherin one of us was born , and the other was for sundry years together an unworthy minister of the gospel of christ . accept therfore we doe beseech you , this brotherly labour of ours , which here we send you , divided into these few chapters . we are also willing upon this occasion , to testifie our thankfullnes for that loving respect which we found from you , when we lived together in that country ; when you were pleased to own us in our sad times . the father of mercies be with you , and with all those that love the truth in sincerity ; and blesse that reverend and grave assembly , wherof we hear your self are a member , that by their wise and holy indeavours , the truth may be cleared , and all corruptions removed in the doctrine , worship , and church government in england , to his praise and glory ; and the comfort of all those who unfainedly desire that the crowne of christ iesus , and the scepter of the son of god , may be gloriously advanced over all ; which is the prayer of your loving brethren , richard mather , and william tompson . a modest and brotherly answer to mr. charles herle his booke against the independency of churches . chapt. i. containing observations upon sundry passages in your stating the question . the independants ( say you ) deny to a synod as the name of a church , so all manner of power of jurisdiction , either to determine , — , or any way oblige such as they shall any way represent . pag. . unlesse it could be proved that in scripture the name of a church is given to a synod , we are not to blamed , though we give not a synod that name , sith we are commanded to hold fast the paterne of the wholsome words of scripture , as sufficient , tim. . . though for this we will not contend . but for power to determine , viz. dogmatically , or by way of doctrine , this we deny not to a synod : for that synod , act. . did put forth such power , and we acknowledge other synods may doe the like upon like occasion , and their determinations being according to the scripture , ought to bind all those whom they represent . they acknowledge that neighbour churches may meet and consult , and advise each other , — and withdraw all fellowship from any one that shall grow pertinaciously scandalous . pag. . and you may adde further , that by their messengers being met in a synod they may determine by the scriptures any matter of controversie that may arise . but for matter of jurisdiction or power of the keyes in excommunication , ordination , or whatever censure , they hold it is entirely and onely in every single congregation , though but of or beleevers . p. . if any hold so small a number as or to be a church so compleat , as to have power of excommunication , ordination and whatever censure , they may if they see cause declare their grounds for so holding . but for our parts for ought we yet see , a church that hath such power as is here spoken of , had need to be a greater number then two or three , even so many as shall be necessary and requisite for the carrying on of church-worke , in admonition and reprehension of one another , as there shall be cause , and therfore they had need to be seaven or more . for a brother that sinneth must so be dealt withall for his recovery , that if he remain impenitent , the proceeding against him is still to goe on by degrees , till at last the matter be brought unto the church , mat. . , . but in all the degrees of proceeding against him , the persons before whom he is called , are in every latter step and degree more in number , then they were in the former , and so the church being the last is the greatest number of all . and yet there are three at the least that must be acquainted with the matter , before it must be brought unto the church , viz. the brother offending , the brother offended , and one witnesse at the least ; so that the church consisting of those three or foure that deal in the matter before it come into the church , and of another number greater then they , and distinct from them to whom the matter is brought in the last place must needs consist of seaven persons , or more . as for that speech of our sauiour , where he speaks of or gathered together in his name , mat. . . he doth not thereby acknowledge such a small number to be a church ; but fetcheth an argument from thence as from the lesser or lesse probable , to prove the firm and inviolable authority of the church ▪ and her censures , of which he had spoken before v. . as if he should say , if two agreeing together upon earth shal be heard in whatsoever they shall aske , and if i be present with two or three gathered in my name , then much more shall the whole church , who is a greater number , and a more solemne assembly be heard in their prayers , and have christs presence in the midst of them , to bind and loose in heaven what they shall bind or loose in earth . but the former is true , vers. . ▪ therefore the latter is true also vers . . and for excommunication , ordination and censures , there is nothing in scripture nor proved in this discourse of yours , that these matters belong onely to a synod , and not to a particular congreation ; yea wee conceive it will not bee easie for any man whatsoever to prove , that synods , and they onely have power to ordain officers , and to excommunicate offenders ; and till this be proved , the independants ( as you call them ) need not to relinquish their judgement and practice in these particulars . sure it is , that synod in acts . did neither meddle with ordination nor excommunication , but onely determined the controversie about circumcision , and gave rules for practice to be observed of the beleeving gentiles , for avoiding of offence among the jewes . we acknowledge that where there is no consociation or neighbourhood of congregations or single churches whereby they may with conveniency be aiding to each other — and whereto the particulars may have recourse — there a single congregation must not be denied entirenesse of jurisdiction . if you acknowledge thus much , ( which yet is no more then truth requires to be acknowledged , and wherin we for our parts , fully concurre with you ) then we suppose a man may improve this grant of yours to a confirmation of that independencie of churches which you plead against and to a disproving of a good part of that authority of synods which you would establish . for if a church that hath no neighbourhood of other churches ; have power of jurisdiction entirely within it selfe ( as here you doe acknowledge ) then first let it be considered whence such a church hath such power , and see if that ground will not reach to prove the like power in other churches also . now we suppose none will deny , but such a church hath this authority or power by the gift of christ , and the liberty which he hath granted to every church as it is a church , which we had rather expresse in doctor ames his words , then in our own . the power it selfe ( namely , in reproving scandals , and purging out the wicked ) of right , or in respect of the first act , cannot be separated from a true church : because it flows immediately and necessarily from its very essence ; for it is contained in that covenant , whereby beleevers are gathered into a church . cas. cons. lib. . cap. . q. . now if this be so , that power of jurisdiction doth immediately and necessarily flow from the very essence of a church , and so belongs to a church , as it is a church , then it will follow that this power must not be granted to be in such a church as hath no neighbour churches , and be denied unto one that hath : because a church that hath neighbours is a church , and hath the essence of a church , as truly as that which hath none . power of jurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church belongs indifferently to all churches , to one as much as to another , without respect of what neighbours they have , whether many , or few , whether any or none . secondly , let it be considered also what is the end and use of the consociation and neighbourhood of churches , and the same truth will thence appeare also ; which neighbourhood where it is affoorded is from the benefit of churches , but not for their hindrance and losse ; and therefore it may be helpfull by casting in more light , but cannot abridge them of any power which they had before . when doctor ames ( medul . theol. l. . c. . sect. . ) had said that the combination of churches into classes and synods , doth neither constitute a new forme of the church , nor ought by any means to take away or impaire that libertie and power , which christ hath left unto his churches , sith it serveth onely for the directing and furthering of the same , what saith mr. paget hereunto ? this , saith he , we willingly grant ( paget . defence . pa. . ) now if this must be granted , then that dependencie of churches , and that power of synods which you plead for must not be granted ; for let a church have entirenesse of jurisdiction before she have any neighbouring churches , and be deprived of the power when god sends such neighbours , and by this meanes she sustaines losse by having neighbours , and comes to be in this respect in worse condition , then when she had none ; which is against the true intent and use of the consociation of churches . moreover , if this grant of yours stand good , then what shall become of that which is intimated , pag. . and pa. . as a reason against the independency of congregations ? where , you say , that it is against the very light of nature , that the adverse party be the sole judge , and party too in the cause ; and that it is against all equity that the offended party ( meaning the congregation ) should be the sole and finall judge of the offence ? sure we cannot think that there can be such a case imagined wherein you would grant it lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature . and yet you grant that the case may be such that a single congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it self ; which seems to us plainly to prove , that for a congregation to be so independent , as to be the finall judge of offences within it self , is not against all equity , nor against the light of nature , as is intimated by you in the pages afore-mentioned . but sith in one place you grant that in some case a congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it self , and in another place do seem to imply that it is against all equity , and the light of nature , that they should be granted , we for our parts are not able to discern how these things do stand together . but that too much may not be made of the grant of yours , you do qualifie it in your subsequent words ; wherein you say , that this is a case extraordinarie , and falls not within the compasse of the question , which is about the ordinarie rule of church-government ; whereunto we answer two things . that for a christian congregation to want neighbour congregations , to whom they may with convenience have recourse , is not so unusuall , as some may imagine : specially if the state of things , in times and places of generall persecution , of generall prophanenesse , and of new plantations in heathen countreys be considered . for at those times , and in those places , it is well , if there be any such congregations at all to be found ( as there was one in london , in the dayes of queen mary ) but it is not like there should be so many of them , that any one may have many neighbour ones , to have recourse unto . and your self do intimate in page of your book , that in the remoter part of wales , and of the north , such congregations even at this day , would be so rare , that in all probability , scarce one could be made up in twentie or thirty miles compasse . suppose the case were extraordinarie and rare , would you say that therefore they may violate the ordinarie rules appointed by christ for church administrations , and now lawfully exercise jurisdiction entirely within themselves , which if they had neighbours were unlawfull for them to do ? we suppose it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in such extraordinarie cases , to transgresse and violate ordinarie rules ; left some body do thereupon inferre that though according to ordinarie rules baptisme and the lords supper must be dispensed onely by men , and by ministers , yet in the want of these , the one may be dispensed by a woman , ( suppose the midwife or some other ) and both of them by such as are no ministers . for as you excuse the lawfulnesse of entirenesse of jurisdiction in a single congregation , even so may they excuse these dispensations here mentioned , by saying that the case is extraordinarie , and fals not within the compasse of the question , which is , what persons by ordinarie rule may dispense sacraments ; wherefore for ought we yet see it is more safe to hold , that sith the dispensation of baptisme and the lords supper , by ordinarie rules belongs onely to ministers , therefore there can be no such extraordinarie case , in these dayes , wherein the dispensing of them may lawfully be performed by others whether women or men : and sith entirenesse of jurisdiction must not be denied to a congregation that wants neighbours , therefore the thing is agreeable unto ordinary rules ; and so may be allowed in other cases also . because the administration of sacraments , fore-mentioned , is not allowable by ordinarie rules , therefore the extraordinarinesse of the case will not make it lawfull ; and because the independent jurisdiction of a congregation is lawfull in the case afore-mentioned , which you call extraordinarie ; therefore the same is allowable by ordinarie rule . there ought to be synods or assemblies — with larger power of the keyes to make decrees , ordain pastors , excommunicate members , or congregations , pag. . answ. that there ought to be synods when occasion requires , we freely grant ; but the question is not about their being , but about their power ; wherein , that they have power to ordain and excommunicate any , we do not yet see it proved . but that they should excommunicate whole congregations , as here is affirmed , seemeth to us to be altogether impossible ; for a congregation being a church , it hath communion within it self , out of which it cannot be cast , no more then cast out it self . ames . cas. consc. lib. . cap. . & . yet so as in every single congregation , there be left a power , of publick reprehension , and if need be , of suspension of its own members from the lords table ; and in case upon such appeal to the synod , there appear no difficulty in the matter , or partialitie in the carriage of it , it is ( if between members of one congregation ) rather to be remitted to the congregation it self , to be there censured and ended . pa. . & . this is not much lesse , then a clear granting of the whole cause , for here is expresly left to the congregation not onely power of publick reprehension , but also power of suspension from the lords table , yea , and in some case power of censuring and ending matters within themselves , having first consulted and advised with the synod : which course in matters of difficulty and weight , we for our parts acknowledge very meet to be taken when synods can be had , and when they cannot , yet in such cases of weight , it is fit to consult with neighbour churches . church government ministeriall independents say is equally and fully in every congregation . pa. . answ. that it is equally in one , as much as in another , your self do often grant , though not equally in one as much as in all : and for fulnesse , when a church is furnished with a presbytery within it self , by whom the church should be governed , then we know no reason , but yours may be owned also . above and besides which ( namely , the single congregation ) there is no ministerially governing church , by any means they say to be admitted . pag. . answ. if the presbytery of a congregation may be called a church , then sith they do admit the governing power of the presbyterie , they do admit a governing church , beside the congregation , if by congregation you mean the whole multitude of the members ; and if a synod may be called a church , and if power by disputation and disquisition to clear up the rule , and then to command obedience thereto , may be called government , then they also admit a synod to be a governing church : for the power here mentioned they do allow unto synods . but it seems to us that the power is not properly a power and exercise of government and jurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church . but that any other church , be it synod , or any other besides the congregation and its presbyterie , should have such a governing power above the congregation and the presbyterie thereof , as that neither the congregation nor its presbyterie may ordain their own officers , nor excommunicate their own offendors , but both must be done by that other governing church ; this we do not admit indeed , because hitherto , we have seen no convincing proofs for the same . all and every member hath ( say they ) a governing power , as of ordaining their pastors and officers , so of deposing and excommunicating — . pa. . governing properly so called , we acknowledge not in any , but in the elders alone . cor. . . rom. . . hebr. . . if that word be ascribed to the people , it must be understood in a more improper sence , for that which in propriety of speech were more fitly called liberty or priviledge . and yet the liberty when it is exercised about ordination , deposition , excommunication , is of the whole body communiter , or in generall , but not of all and everie member in particular , as you conceive us to hold ; for women and children are members , and yet are not to act in such matters , the one being debarred by their sex , and the other for want of understanding and discretion . we acknowledge that pastors and other officers were anciently , and it is to be wished , thoy still were chosen ( at least consented to ) by the members of each respective congregation . p. . by [ anciently ] we suppose you mean , in the primitive , and apostolick times ; and if in these times they were chosen by the congregation , what warrant can there be to take another course in these dayes ; sith the ancient pattern of scripture in matters of this nature is a commandment that ought to be kept till the appearing of jesus christ . tim. . , . &c. but they are to be ordoined in a synod onely — . that a synod hath the power , we would gladly see it proved by the word . but if these things may be done by a synod onely and not elsewhere , then how will that stand which you granted in the page afore , that in some case a single congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it self ? to be done by a synod onely , and to be done by a single congregation entirely within it self , are not easie for us to reconcile . further , if synods consist , as you say , of presbyteries and other commissioners , then there must be presbyters afore there can be synods ; and thence it must follow that all presbyters are not ordained by synods , but some by other men . if it be said though the presbyters , whereof the particular synod consisteth , were not ordained by the synod , but were presbyters before this synod had any being , yet they might be ordained by a former synod ; the answer is that this doth not remove the difficultie . for still it would be enquired how the presbyters of that former synod , and so of the first synod that ever was , how they came to be presbyters : sure if the first synod consisted of presbyters , then there were presbyters before there was any synod , and so presbyters have been lawfully ordained , and not by a synod . in a synod where all the ultimate power of decrees and censures resides — . answ. by power of decrees , we understand power to clear up the truth dogmatically , for the word translated decrees is dogmata in the originall , act. . . and this power we confesse is in a synod , though not all in the synod alone , but also in the presbyterie of a single congregation . but for power of censures , this we do not see to be in the synod at all ; much lesse , that it doth all reside in the synod , and not elsewhere . but when you say , all the ultimate power of these things doth reside in a synod ( though you do imply by the word ultimate that matters ought not to be perpetually depending , but in some judicatory or other be brought unto their ultimate or last period , and conclusion , wherein we concurre with you , yet neverthelesse ) your meaning is not sufficiently expressed , what synod this should be that should have this ultimate power . for you know there are divers sorts of synods , some particular which are called classes , some provinciall , some nationall , and some generall , or oecumenicall synods ; and we should be glad to know , which of all these it is in whom the ultimate power of these things doth reside , and why it may not reside in any of the rest ; yea and why the ultimate power of censures may not reside in the congregation , as well as in any of them . whether it be necessarie to the well being of a single church or congregation , that where it stands in neighbourhood with other churches , it be equally and mutually coordinated with the rest , in a dependance on the ministeriall government of a synod ? this they deny , and we affirm . pa. . ans. by ministeriall government of a synod ; you meane , a governing power of ordaining pastors for congregations , and of excommunicating offendors ; for so you describe the power of synods , pag. . and pag. . where you say that pastors are to be ordained , deposed , excommunicated by a synod onely ; and that synods have a larger power of the keyes to make decrees , ordain pastors , and excommunicate members , or congregations ; so that the question is : whether it be necessarie to the well-being of a single congregation that hath neighbours , so to depend , on the government of synods , as that a synod onely and not the congregation , must ordain their pastors , and excommunicate offendors : which being the state of the question , we are content to joyn issue with you , upon the same ; and to hear your arguments for the affirmative part . chap. ii. containing an answer to your first argument taken from the manner of government , in the jewish church , laid down . deut. . , , . chron. . . , . psal. . , . that the government of the jewish church was by gods institution nationall , and dependent , as it clearly appears by the above mentioned texts , so it is fully confessed by mr. aynsworth , mr. davenport , mr. canne , mr. robinson , and generally all judgements . pag. . answ. in some of the places of these authors which you direct us unto in your margent , which we have looked upon , we can find no such confession as here you do report of them . it may be the pages are mis-printed . but what they do confesse or not confesse , we will not stand long to enquire , such of them as are yet alive , may answer for themselves , if they see cause : but it shall suffice us , to consider the weight of the argument it self , which we suppose being put into form must run thus , or to the like purpose . as the congregations in israel were dependent , so must congregations be in these dayes . but congregations in israel were dependent on the ministeriall government of a synod : therefore congregations in these dayes must be dependent on the ministeriall government of a synod . indeed in your prosecution of the argument , you do not expresly mention any ministeriall government of a synod in israel , upon which their congregations did depend : yet we conceive that must needs be your meaning ; because otherwise the argument which you bring , doth not reach to conclude the thing in question , even as the question is stated by your selfe . for in the words immediatly preceding this first argument , you thus summe up and conclude your stating the question , viz. whether it be necessary — that a single congregation , where it stands in neighbourhood with other churches , should be co-ordinated with the rest in a dependency on the ministeriall government of a synod . and having answered affirmatively , you then bring in this for your first argument , taken from the manner of government in the jewish church , laid down in the texts above mentioned . now if that be the question , as you lay it down , and this the argument for the affirmative part , then sith the question is about dependance on the government of a synod , the argument must needs be of the same , or else nothing in question is concluded . and if the argument must conclude the question , then it must be laid down to the like purpose as we have done ; and being so formed , our answer is by denying both parts thereof . for neither is it clear from those texts , that the congregations in israel did depend on the ministeriall government of a synod ; nor will it follow that ours must be dependant as theirs were . touching the former of these , ( to speak first of the minor proposition ) suppose it were true that the congregations in israel did depend upon the government of the judicatories or assemblies mentioned in those texts , yet that doth not prove they depended upon a synod : and the reason is , because the judicatories there mentioned , were not any synods at all , but assemblies of another nature . for first , synods ( as your selves describe them pag , . ) are assemblies , consisting of the severall pastors , whom together with such other members as should be thought fit , the several congregations are respectively to chuse & send therto . but those judicatories in deut. . and the other scriptures , did not consist of any pastors or members , whom the severall congregations did chuse , and send thereto ; but of the priests and levites , of the judges and chiefe of the fathers of israel , which were constantly resident at jerusalem , the place which the lord had chosen . and the severall congregations had nothing to do either to chuse them , or send them . secondly , these jndicatories at jerusalem were standing courts , and were constantly to continue , and therefore they were not synods ; for synods are not wont to stand and continue , but onely till they have ended the businesse which was the occasion of calling them , and then to be dissolved and ended . thirdly , mr. page ( out of whom it seems this argument , and much of the discourse about it , is taken ) doth confesse , pag. . that the authority of classes and synods , is not civill , neither have they power to inflict civill pnnishments , they onely judge of ecclesiasticall causes , and that in ecclesiasticall manner , using no other then spirituall censures , in pag. . of his defence . but the judicatories in these texts ( as mr. paget also confesseth pag. . . ) were for civill causes as well as ecclesiasticall ; and so it is said , deut. . . that by the word of the priests and levites every controversie and every stroke mast be tried even in civill causes , as that of trying out an uncertain murther , which is the cause spoken of in that place . by all which it plainly appeares , that those superior judicatories in israel were not synods ; and then suppose their congregations did depend upou those judicatories , and that ours must depend as theirs did , yet it will not follow that ours must depend upon synods . and thus your minor failing , this might be enough to take away the whole strength of your argument . neverthelesse , for further answer , we may also deny the consequence of your major proposition : for though it were yeelded , that the congregations in israel did depend upon a superiour judicatory , it will not follow that it must be so in these dayes : and our reason is , because the particular congregations in israel ( viz. their synagogues ) were not compleat churches , as the congregations in the new testament are . that they were not entire and compleat churches , may appear by this , because the people could not lawfully in them have the use of the most solemne ordinances of god , and par●s of his worship , though such as were of ordinary and continuall use , but they must goe upto jerusalem for the performing and enjoyment thereof ; and therefore they wete strightly commanded , as not to keep the passover , so not to offer any offerings or sacrifices ( which yet were of very frequent use ) in any place within any of their gates , but onely in jerusalem , the place which god did chuse to put his name there , as we read at large deut. . and . , . neither was it lawfull for the chiefe ministers of the church to execute the chiefe parts of their office in those synagogues , but only at jerusalem . but now with congregations in these dayes it is farre otherwise ; there is none of the solemne ordinances of god , which are of ordinarie and continuall use , but in these congregations , they may be enjoyed , nor any ordinarie duties of the ministery , but in them they may be performed , as preaching , prayer , sacraments , discipline , &c. which shews they are entire churches within themselves . dr. ames hath the saying . the synagogues were not compleat churches , because the whole worship of god , and all the sacred communion prescribed at that time , could not be exercised in them . med. theol. lib. . ca. . thes. . and again , there is nothing read in all the new testament , of the institution of any greater church , on which the lesser should depend : nor any worship or sacred ordinance prescribed , which is not to be observed in every congregation : nor any ordinary minister appointed who is not given to some one assembly of this kind . lib. . cap. . thes. . now if their congregations could not enjoy all the ordinances , as not being compleat churches , there might be reason why they should be dependent upon jerusalem , and the synedrion and temple there , where the ordinances might be enjoyed ; and yet ours being compleat , and enjoying al the ordinances within themselves need not to be so dependent . and another reason why their congregations might be dependent , and ours not so , may be this . they had a superiour judicatory to appeal unto which had the supremum of church power within it self , and from whose sentence there was no appeal to any further judge upon earth ; for so it is said of that synedrion at jerusalem . deut. . and reason requires that some such supream judicatory there should be ; for controversies & cases of doubt must not be drawn out in infinitum , but of necessity standum est in aliquo supremo , we must rest in some supreame , and proceed no further . but now in the new testament , if we once depart from a particular congregation or church , where or when shall we find such a supremum ? surely not before we come to an oecumenicall or generall councell : for as for classicall , provinciall , and nationall synods there is none of these , but those cases which you put of deficiency , and possibility of partiality may befall the best of them ▪ and therefore if for these causes the single congregations , must not be independent , but there must be appeals from them , the synods being subject to the like , there must be liberty of appeals from them also . for like as you do alledge that congregations may be partiall , and erre , so we suppose it will not be denied but the classis may erre , the provinciall synod may erre , the nationall may erre : and therefore by this reason entirenesse of jurisdiction must be granted to none of these . and then whither shall we go but to a generall councill , which as it hath not been seen for many by past generations , so god knows whether ever there shall be any so long as this world shall endure . but how if the generall councill do erre also ? sure learned doctor reynolds doth abundantly clear it , that such a thing is not impossible . thes. . sect. . and so by this reason entirenesse of jurisdiction must not be granted to generall councils , but there must be liberty of appeals from them also . such consequences do inevitably follow upon that which you suggest as a ground of appealing from particular congregations . and by all this it appeareth , that particular congregations , have no such superiour judicatory above them , but according to your grounds , there may be liberty of appeals from the same ; and thence it followeth that there is not the like reason , against their independency , as against the independency of the synagogues in israel : because those synagogues had a judicatorie above them , from which there was no appeal . those may be dependent which have others above them , which are supreame ; whereas they which have no such above them may be supreame themselves , and consequently be independent . obj. if any shall here ask whether we think it not possible for particular congregations to erre in their judgement of causes ? we answer , that we confesse they may ; but in our judgement that needs not to hinder , but they may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within themselves , and not be under the power of any other . for that supreame synedrion at jerusalem did many times erre , and gave corrupt judgement in causes , and yet was not under the power of any other judicatory . when we are enquiring in what judicatory , the supremum of church-power doth lye , it is not our best course to look for such an one as cannot erre : for such an one we shall never find , but to look out where god hath appointed it to lie , and therewith to rest contented : now in the old testament this supremum by gods appointment , was in that synedrion at jerusalem . but in the new testament we know of no appointment of god , that the like supremum must be in a synod ; but for ought we know a particular congregation may be answerable to that synedrion , as well as any classis or synod ; and so much the rather , because the power in a particular congregation , is constant , and alwayes ready to be had , as it was in that synedrion ; whereas classes and synods are more seldome and rare , and cannot be gathered so often as there may be need of the use of church power , in regard of ordaining of officers , or censuring of offenders , and the like . therefore briefly to wind up all , sith congregations in the new testament , are compleat churches , which the jewish synagogues were not ; and sith the synagogues had a supreame judicatory above them , from which there was no appeale , which our congregations have not : therefore we conclude , that the dependencie of the synagogues upon that superiour judicatory , doth not prove that our congregations must depend upon the government of a synod , especially this being considered withall , that the judicatory upon which the synagogues did depend , was not any synod , but an assembly of another nature : and though the supremacie must be some where , even where god hath appointed it to be , yet the particular congregations may shew as much for that appointment , as the synod . and this shall suffice for answer to this first argument : onely we will adde some observations upon some few passages in that which you write for removall of three exceptions which you say are given by some against this argument of yours . . that that government was ccremoniall and typicall . . that papists alledge it against us for their hierarchy and appeales to — the pope . . that the priests and levites were then judges in civill causes , wherin it was that the government was then appealative and dependent , pag. . if any doe make such exceptions , we leave it to them that make them , to undertake the defence of them , or to cleare them as they shall see cause . but for us , the answer we have given to the argument , is that wherein we do rest . that there ought to be one high-priest , in whom all appeales and judgements were to determine . pag. . though there was to be one high-priest among the jewes , yet that all appeals and judgements were to determine in him , we suppose is more then can be proved . sure mr. paget pag. , . ( whom you seem in your discourse much to follow ) doth say , that the judgement spoken of , deut. . was not given by the high-priest alone , but by a colledge or senate of priests , noted in the text , and approveth the judgement of doctor reynolds and doctor whitaker , giving this answer as a just refutation of the papists , arguing from this text to prove there should bee one supreme judge of ecclesiasticall causes . that there ought to be graduall judicatories wherein the aggrieved party may appeale from the lesser to the higher — there can be no ceremony or type in this — this was taught by the light of nature to jethro — appeals ( saith doctor whitaker ) are of divine and naturall right . pag. . if this bee meant in civill causes , where more is left to the light of nature and civill prudence , according to the general rules of the word , the word not determining all particulars so fully , as it doth in ecclesiasticall matters ; then we for our parts doe fully consent thereto . and though it were extended to ecclesiasticall causes also , yet this we suppose is cleare likewise by the same light of nature , that both for civill causes and ecclesiasticall , there must be some finall and supreame judgement , that controversies may not by appeales after appeals be spun out in infinitum . now unlesse it be determined where that supremacie doth lie ( which is the very thing in question ) the usefulnesse and necessity of appeals may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question , and as much to seek as before . that there ought to be appeals till you come to the highest , is one thing , and that a synod ( and not a particular congregation ) is the highest , is another ; and they are so farre different , that though the first were granted , yet the latter is not thereby proved . that renowned martyr cranmer , the forme of his appeale to a councell , three times by him urged — we have recorded by mr fox at large pag. . but how this example doth suit the present question , we doe not understand : for his appeal was not from a particular congregation , but from the pope ; nor was it to a synod , but to the next generall councell , which from that day to this , hath not yet assembled , nor been called . if we must hold a necessity of appeales to such a judicatory as cranmer appealed unto , then the supremacie of synods , provinciall or nationall , is utterly taken away . generally all that write against appeals to the pope , acknowledge yet their necessary usefulnesse to a synod ; so did that reverend martyr cranmer , — so ( besides the whole stream of antiquity ) ursin , zepperus , and to come neerer , cartwright , fenner , nay barrow , ainsworth , johnson , pag. . we doubt it is a speech a good deale too large , to say , that all these doe acknowledge the necessary usefulnesse of appeales to a synod , especially if ▪ you mean of such appeales as you must needs mean , or else you speak not to the question in hand ; viz. of appeals from a particular congregation . we have looked upon some of the places , and doe perswade our selves that if you doe look upon them also , you will finde this speech of yours to be too excessive . as for mr. paget , who ( pag. . . ) alledgeth all these very places that you doe alledge , he doth not say that those authours doe all acknowledge such necessary usefulnesse of appeals to a synod , as you doe report them to acknowledge ; nor doth alledge them for that end , but for another purpose , viz. to shew , that in these dayes we may alledge and argue from texts out of the law of moses , and other places of the old testament , which if it be rightly done , we for our parts see no reason to disallow . but that all these authors , even barrow and ainsworth doe acknowledge the necessary usefulnesse of appeales from particular congregations to the government of synods , is so large an expression , as wee know not upon what grounds to think it credible ; sith it is well knowne to them that have read their writings , that they acknowledge no ecclesiasticall judicatory superiour to that of a particular congregation . if the benefit of appeals and consociation of churches , to their mutuall help in government , should not be as free to us as to the jewes , how much more defective and improvident were the gospel , then the law ? pag. . consociation of churches for mutuall help , we willingly acknowledge , so that this consociation may neither constitute a new form of a church , nor take away or impair the liberty and power which christ hath given to churches ; but serve onely according to the true use thereof , for the directing and guiding of the same : which proviso ( as we said before ) mr. paget doth willingly grant . and for appeals , we do willingly acknowledge any benefit that may come thereby : but for making the gospel more defective then the law ; we conceive if things be well considered , it is not our way , but yours , that will be found justly culpable , in this respect . for first , as the jews had a supreame judicatory for the finall ending of causes , so we hold the same in a particular congregation . whereas according to your opinion and grounds , we know not where or when to find such a judicatory , but there must be appeals upon appeals , from the congregation to the classis , from a classis to a provinciall synod , and from them to a nationall , and from that to an oecumenicall ; and by this means causes may be so protracted , as not to receive any determination for many generations , yea it may be never while this world doth endure . secondly , as with them there was a standing judicatorie alwaies in readinesse for the hearing of causes , so we hold the like in the particular congregation : whereas synods are not alwaies in readinesse , but so seldome , that if they had supreme power to determine , yet causes ma● be long depending , before a synod can be called for the determining of them . thirdly , whereas the supreame judicatorie at jerusalem , being but one in all the world , was verie farre remote from all proselites , that lived in other countreys ( as the eunuch of ethiopia , act. . ) yea farre remote from those jews , that dwelt in the furthest parts of the holy land ; god hath provided better for us in regard that congregations wherein we place the supreame church power being many in number , a christian may have the use of that power with much more conveniencie , then was affoarded to most jews and proselites in those daies ; but as for synods , as they are for time more seldome , then that synedrion , so they are to many persons no lesser remote in place . by all which it doth appear , that the doctrine of the independents ( as you call them ) doth in some things make us equall to the jews , and in other things , doth make our condition more excellent then theirs ; whereas according to your way , that are against independencie , in many things our condition is made more defective then theirs . how were our saviour king of peace and righteousnesse , should he have ordained now under the gospel , such a government as — were neither righteous nor peaceable ? pa. . that our blessed saviour is king of righteousnesse and peace , and the church government which he hath ordained both righteous and peaceable , is such a certain and divine truth , that it were blasphemous wickednesse to doubt of it ; but when the question is , what government christ hath ordained , it is better arguing to say , this government the scripture doth witnesse to be ordained of christ , and therefore it is righteous and peaceable , then to say , this government is not righteous nor peaceable , and therefore not ordained of christ . we meane plainly thus , that it is more agreeable to religious sobrietie and humilitie , to search out by scripture-grounds , what government christ hath ordained , and when that is once found , then to conclude from thence , the righteousnesse and peaceablenesse of the same ; rather then on the other side , to think with our selves what government to naturall reason seems righteous and peaceable , and thence to gather what is ordained or not ordained of christ , your self have a saying p. . that laws meerly positive are therefore laws because commanded . and why may not we say in like sort , this or that form of church government , is therefore peaceable and righteous , because ordained , sith this or that form is by the positive law of christ . but ( say you ) how can that government be peaceable and righteous , where parties are made sole judges ? suppose the greater number of members in a congregation be against the pastor and elders . pag. . answ. it is not unrighteous nor unpeaceable in it self that they should be judges , whom the god of all righteousnesse and peace hath appointed so to be . nor is it reasonable , that they should be thrust out of the office , whereto god hath appointed them , under this pretence , that they are parties ; for if good care be not taken how farre we give way to such alledgements , we may lay a foundation for weakning , if not utterly evacuating , the authoritie of all supreame judicatories whatsoever . for as you alledge against the congregation , that they may be divided amongst themselves , and then if matters be ended there , parties are made judges , ( viz. the major part against the minor ) so the very same may be said of a synod , where controversies may arise , as well as in a congregation : and if congregations must not determine matters arising within themselves , because parties must not be judges ; then by the same reason matters arising in a synod , must not be determined by a synod ; and so the synod unto whom , you would have matters carried from the congregation , must be no more independent , then the congregation it self , from whom they are carried . yea , by this reason , that supreame synedrion among the jews , must have been dependent also . for it is plain , that sometimes that synedrion was divided into parts among themselves , as in that famous instance , act. . where the division of the councill was the means of paul's escape . finally , there is not any supreme judicatory upon earth , neither civill nor ecclesiasticall , but if they consist of many persons , and be not absolute and meere monarchies consisting of one alone , the members thereof may be divided among themselves , and yet they must be the finall judges to determine matters within themselves , if the matters must be determined at all : so that this which you seeme to reject as an absurditie , that parties should be judges , is in some cases ( and namely when the supreme judicatory is divided into parts about matters arising among themselves ) a matter of unavoidable necessity , and cannot be otherwise . this communion and mutuall assistance in government , — god as by his word , so by the very light of nature , teacheth all societies whatever , whether common-wealths , or armies , vniversities or navies , pag. . answ. either this passage means that all common-wealths , &c. are taught such communion and assistance in government with other common-wealths , &c. as that none of them have entirenesse and supremacie of jurisdiction within themselves , but are dependant on other the like societies for the same ; or else that the members and parts of a common-wealth , &c. are taught such communion and assistance in government , as not to be entire of themselves , but to depend upon the whole society of which they are members and parts . if it be taken in the latter sense , then the thing is most true , but no prejudice to our cause at all , for we grant the same of the parts and members of a congregationall church , &c. but it must be taken in the former sense , if it make any thing against us ; and in this sense it will not hold true : for it is well known , that common-wealths and universities , as the common-wealth of england for example , and the university of oxford , have no such communion and assistance in government , with other common-wealths and other universities , but that they have entirenesse of jurisdiction within themselves ; and the same may be said of armies and navies . the members of all these societies doe depend on the societie of which they are members : but that is nothing against us . if the societies did depend upon other the like societies , this indeed were against us . but this cannot be proved so to be . not that therefore this government of churches should as those end in a monarchy on earth . answ. we suppose it is a clear mistake , to say that the government in all those societies , doth end in a monarchy : for whatever may be said of the rest , common-wealths you know there are sundry , whose government is either democraticall or aristocraticall , and doth not end in any monarchy at all ; witnesse for example the low countreys . but if churches must be dependent upon the government of synods , because the very light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatever ; then we see not how it will be avoyded , but by the same reason churches must end in a monarchy upon earth , if it were once proved , that the light of nature doth teach all societies whatever so to end : for there is as good reason for this as for the other . and the old plea for bishops and popes , ut capite constituto schismatis occasio tolleretur , will not be easily avoyded . if we yeeld thus much that what the light of nature teacheth other societies , the same must be observed in the government of churches . you say indeed that this will not follow , because the churches monarch or head is in heaven , and such an one , as though in heaven , yet still present by his word and spirit here on earth too , to all the offices of a monarch . pag. . but this we conceive doth not remove the difficultie , partly , because the objection is for a visible head , and not an invisible ; and partly because the time hath been when there was one high-priest upon earth , in whom you say ( pag. . ) that all appeals and judgements were to determine : and yet at that time the monarch or head of the church was in heaven , and present on earth too by his word and spirit , to all the offices of a monarch , as truly then as now . whereby we may see , that if you will goe by the light of nature , it is not the presence of christ in heaven , and his spirituall and invisible presence with his church on earth , that will take away the necessity of a visible head upon earth . a surer answer to this plea , is to flye to the institution and appointment of god , whose wisedome and will it was to appoint one high priest upon earth in former times , but hath not done the like in these dayes . chap. iii. containing an answer to the second argument taken from matth . tell the church . that this is spoken by our saviour in reference to the jewish church-government , — is the joynt judgement of ambrose , theodoret , — among the ancient : melanchton , strigetius , peretius , aretius , — and even mr. johnson himselfe . — and if so , then our saviour here sufficiently confirmes to us as lawfull , and conveyes to us as usefull so much of the jewish church-government as includes an independencie and liberty of appe des therein . pag. , . answ. by dependencie here spoken of , must be meant dependencie upon the government of a synod ; and by appeal must be meant appeale from a particular congregation unto that synod , or otherwise the argument concludes besides the question : and the words being thus understood , the forme of the argument must be to this purpose , viz. if that which is here spoken by our saviour , be spoken in reference to the jewish church-government , then particular congregations must depend upon the government of synods . but the first is true : therefore the second is true also . but for confirmation of this minor proposition , you bring no other proofe but onely the testimonies of a number of authours , all cited before by mr. paget in his defence , pag. , , &c. and for the consequence of your major you bring no proofe at all . neverthelesse we are willing to consider what strength there may be in the argument , and to that purpose we must enquire into your meaning in this phrase of reference to the jewish church-government , whereby we conceive you intend one of these two , either that the word church in our saviours rule , tell the church , doth signifie the elders and governours alone , as sometimes the like word is used in the old testament ; or else that no new rule is prescribed hereby our saviour , but the very same that was formerly given to the jews . mr. paget , who also takes his second argument from this place of mat. . doth understand our saviours words in this later sense . but whether way soever you intend , our answer is briefly thus : first , that though we will not now deny the minor proposition , yet this we may say , that it is not so evident of it self , but that it needs some better proof then by you is given for the confirmation of it ; for of it self it is not clear , that by church is meant onely the elders of the church , nor that all the steps of such graduall proceeding as our saviour doth prescribe , were formerly commanded to the jews . and your self professing in your epistle to the gentlemen , prefixed before your book , that you like d. moulins resolution , rather to bring one argument then ten authors , if accordingly you had confirmed this minor proposition with some further proof then onely the names of authors , it could have given better satisfaction . but what ever become of the minor , the consequence of the major may justly be denied . for though it were granted that our saviours words , tell the church , were spoken with reference to the jewish church-government in this sence , that this graduall proceeding in all the steps of it was formerly commanded to the jews , yet this is nothing to prove the necessitie of the dependance of congregations upon the government of synods , ( which is our question ) because there may be such graduall proceedings to the fulfilling of our saviours rule , without any use of a synod at all . if it were not so , synods had need to be more frequent then they are , or ever were , or are ever like to be , for this rule of our saviour is of very frequent use . and though it were granted also , that by church , our saviour meant the elders ( which is the other sense of your words of reference to the jewish church-government ) yet neither would this prove the dependence of congregations upon the government of synods , because there may be and ought to be elders , and an eldership or presbyterie in every particular congregation , and by telling those elders that rule may be observed , if our saviours words were taken in that sence . and indeed it seems your self do so understand them , as appears in pag. . of your book , and likewise in this place now in hand , because one of those authors whom you alledge for the meaning of our saviours words , is mr. johnson , who in his latter times , did so understand them , of whom you say , even mr. johnson himself though a pastor of separatists in a peculiar treatise reduceth himself from his former error in the contrary opinion , to this judgement too . wherby it seems , that for the meaning of this text , you concurre in opinion or judgement with mr. johnson . and if so , then though you may by church understand the elders as he did , yet then you must also acknowledge the independency of particular congregations and the pastors thereof ; for it is certain and plain that mr. johnson was of that opinion and judgement too , notwithstanding that his exposition of matth. . and did never reduce himself to this opinion , that congregations must be dependent upon the government of synods , which is your plea . for which purpose you may consider what is to be seen in his christian plea , which was one of the last books that ever he wrote . now in pag. , . of that book are these words , viz. seeing now every particular constituted church hath right and power within it self to celebrate the lords supper , which is answerable to the passeover that was kept at jerusalem , this sheweth that now every particular church is to be esteemed as jerusalem , and so to stand immediately under jesus christ the arch-pastor of his sheep , and high priest of our profession . and again , all particular churches with their pastors do stand immediately under jesus christ the arch-pastor without any strange ecclesiasticall power and authoritie interposed between , whether it be of the prelates , or of their unlawfull usurping synods , or any such like — . and in the words following , speaking how all churches , and the ministers of them , should be readie and willing to help and advise one another , he addeth thus : viz. and so to this end , and in this manner , may be had a lawfull and profitable use of synods , classes , &c. for mutuall help and advise , so as alwaies it be provided that they do not challenge or usurp any unlawfull jurisdiction or power over the particular churches , or their pastors and governours . by which words it plainly appeareth , that though mr. johnson by church in matth. . did understand the elders , yet he never held that particular churches , and the elders thereof , should depend upon the government of synods , but be immediately under the government and authoritie of jesus christ , and depend no other way upon synods but onely for their advise and counsell : and therefore his exposition of matth. . will stand you in no stead to prove the dependance of particular churches upon synods . wherefore to wind up our answer to this argument . though it were granted that when our saviour saith , tell the church , he means tell the elders , and though it were granted also that enjoying such a graduall proceeding , he prescribeth no new rule , but the same that had been given before unto the jews , yet neither of these do prove that congregations must depend upon the authoritie of synods ; and the reason is , because both these may be performed in a particular congregation ; for therein a man may proceed by such steps and degrees as our saviour enjoyneth , and may also tell his matter to the elders of that particular church . and so the consequence of your major proposition failing , the whole argument must fail also , though the minor were never so strongly proved : and how much more when the minor is left so weak , neither of these particulars being sufficiently cleared and made good by you , that by church is meant the elders , nor that all that our saviour in that place prescribeth , was before commanded to the jews . but inasmuch as your words are , that this of matth. . is spoken by our saviour christ in reference to the jewish church-government before urged , therefore we may give a further answer to this argument , out of that which before hath been answered when the argument from the jewish church-government was urged . for though it were granted that christ speaks in reference to that government , yea though it were granted ( which we suppose none will affirm ) that all that was used among the jews is here prescribed by christ , yet all this were too short to prove that our congregations must depend upon the government of synods , unlesse it could be proved that the jewish congregations did so depend , which we have formerly shewed to be otherwise , the great synedrion at jerusalem upon which their lesser congregations did depend , if they were dependent at all , being not any synod , but an assembly of another nature . but you will improve this text further ; and therefore after some speech of an indefinite proposition in logick , and an indefinite command in divinitie , and of five graduall iffs in our saviours words , if he shall offend , &c. you come thus to argue , viz. the remedie of complaint or appeal must be as large as the malady offence , otherwise christs salve were not equall to the sore : but offences may arise as well between divers congregations in the same church , as between divers members in the same congregation , and therefore particular congregations as well as members have hereby liberty to complain and appeal to a more generall judgement for redresse . and a little after : that such offences may arise between churches as well as members , appears by that between the graecians and hebrews about the neglect of their widows , act. . . and that in such cases they may complain and implead each other , appears by that of the prophet hosea . . even the daughter church with the mother . pag. . to all which we thus answer . first , though we deny not but offences may arise betweene churches as well as members , yet we do not see that those instances alledged by you from act. . and hos. . do sufficiently prove the same ; because those graecians and hebrews , act. . might be all of one and the same church and congregation which was at jerusalem , and not two congregations or churches , the graecians one and the hebrews another , as it seems you do conceive of them . for when the apostles upon occasion of this murmuring of the graecians for the neglect of their widows , did take course for the appointing of deacons for the remedying thereof , the whole managing of the businesse was transacted and done in one congregation alone ; for so it is said , they called the multitude of disciples together , vers. . they appointed them to look out seven men duely qualified whom they might appoint over that businesse , v. . and the saying pleased the whole multitude , who thereupon did chuse seven whom they presented unto the apostles , ver. , . and the apostles imposed hands on them , ver. . in all this there is no hint of two congregations , one of graecians and another of hebrews , but the text seemeth plain enough , that the whole multitude of disciples whether graecians or hebrews were all gathered together into one congregation about the choice and ordaining of these deacons . and as for hos. . . plead with your mother , plead , sith there is no mention in that scripture of any daughter church , nor of any two churches at all ; and sith at that time there was only one church upon the face of the earth , even the nationall church of the jewes , therefore we cannot see how this text can be any proofe of churches complaining and impleading one another . if any man think otherwise , and that the daughter-churches did plead against the mother-church of israel that is here spoken of , then we would demand what or where was that superiour judicatory , be it synod or any other , before which they did plead , and before whom the mother-church of israel must answer for herselfe , when the daughter-churches did complain against her . we suppose none will affirme there was any such : and therefore this text can be no ground for churches impleading one another . but the true meaning of the place is thus much , not that one church must plead against another , but that the godly members of the church of israel must plead against the corruptions of that very church , though in respect of them she were as a mother , and they as children . and before whom must they plead ? not before any other judge upon earth , but before the lord of heaven , and unto her own face , laying open her abominations , and shewing unto her , her sins : and we acknowledge the members of any other church may doe the like , if there be the like occasion , so that they keep themselves within the bounds of sobriety , and their owne calling . but if it were granted ( though these allegations doe not prove it ) that offences may arise between congregations , how doth this prove the thing in question , viz. that congregations must depend upon the government of synods ? yes , say you ; because the remedy must be as large as the malady ; and otherwise christs salve were not equall to the sore . but if this reason be sufficient against the independency of churches ; then by the like reason a man may prove , that the church of a nation must not be independent neither : for as you alledge , that offences may arise as well between divers congregations , as between divers members in the same congregation ; so a man may alledge , that offences may arise between divers nationall churches . and as you demand , what if a brother offend not a particular brother , but the whole congregation ? what if ten brethren offend the whole , or part ; shall we think the offence falls not within our saviours remedy ? so in like sort a man may demand , what if the congregation offend not a particular congregation , but the whole church of a nation ? what if ten , twenty , fourty congregations , offend the whole nation , or part ? yea , we may adde , what if the nationall church offend the church of another nation ? would you now say , that all these offences must fal within our saviours rule of telling the church ; and that this were a sufficient reason against the independencie of nationall churches and nationall synods ? we suppose you would not say so : and yet we doe not see how it can be avoided by your reason and ground , sith that ground is appliable to the one case as well as to the other . if the reason doe overthrow the independencie of particular congregations , then of a nationall church also . if not of a nationall church , then how doth it make any more against the other ? of necessity for ought wee can discern , you must owne the reason as strong in both cases , or else refuse it as weak in both . yea , and further , by the like reason a man might prove that indians and turkes must be complained of unto the church , and that the offences of them , or of other heathen , must fall within the compasse of our saviours remedy . for as offences may arise between members and members , between churches and churches : so it is apparent that offences may arise between christians and pagans ; and if this ground that you lay be sound , that the remedy complaint , or oppeale must be as large as the malady offence : and consequently there must be a church above congregations ; then if an indian or other pagan shall commit an offence , the remedy must be to complain of the indian to the church . and sith ( as you say , pag. . ) there must be power of judgement to redresse there where the complaint is to be made ; would it not thence follow , that there must be power of judgement in the church to redresse the offences of indians ? which were directly contrary to the plain words of the apostle , cor. . . what have i to doe to judge them that are without ? but this inconvenience of the churches judging them that are without , doth unavoidably follow upon this which you lay as a ground against the independencie of congregations , viz. that where an offence may be committed , there christs rule , tell the church , may be applied for redresse thereof . but what shall we say then ? if indians and other heathens , if congregationall and nationall churches of christians , be not under the power of that rule of christ , shall we say then there is no salve for all their sores , but so many sinners must be left lawlesse , and their offences remedilesse ? god forbid ! the lord hath provided good store of help for all these : but every salve is not for every sore . such persons as are in the church , all they are subject to the discipline of the church , and to the power of christ administred therein , so that if need so require , they may be excommunicated and cast out . whole churches are subject to the wholsome advice and counsell of other churches ; and so farre as the same shall be according to god , they ought to hearken thereunto : and if they doe not , they may lawfully be renounced by other churches , from all church-communion with them . and as for indians , or others , that are no churches , nor members of churches , though our saviours rule of telling the church , was not intended for them , yet both they and christian churches likewise , and the members of them , are all of them to be subject to the magistrates , and the authority of the higher powers , whose duty it is to be keepers of both tables of the law of god , and to do their endeavour that all the subjects may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie . rom. . . tim. . . but , say you , an offence may be so generall as to defile and make guilty a whole land , and why not then the remedie as large as it , tell the church ? pag. . ans. in such case of generall and nationall defilements , the remedie is generall and nationall repentance , whereto all the people must be provoked , and exhorted by the ministers of the word in their severall congregations . and when the higher powers do give example thereof in their own persons , and by some act of their authoritie do call upon all the people for the same , this is a notable remedie , through the mercy of god , against the defilement of nationall sins , and the danger that may come thereby . which as it was the practise of asa , hezekiah , josiah , and the states of judah in their times , so we have cause with all humble thankfulnesse to blesse the lord that put the like care into the hearts of the lords and commons assembled in parliament in our deare native countrey , who by an ordinance of both houses thought it meet to exhort all the subjects of england and wales to the duty of repentance , both for personall and nationall sins . but suppose the magistrate be an enemy to religion , and the land or whole church therein have occasion to make a solemne renewall of their covenant with god , shall not this whole church or number in their collective body have power to enjoyn it ? ans. if the supreame magistrate be an enemie to religion , it is not like but most or many of the people will be of the same mind ; regis ad exemplum totus — as it is at this day in france and spaine , and was in england in the dayes of queen mary , and other popish princes ; and then the beleevers in the land will not be so many as to bear the name of the land or nation , but of a small part thereof , and so at that time it will not be required of them to make any nationall covenant , or to enjoyn the same . nor can it well be conceived how they should assemble in a nationall synod for that or any other purpose , when the magistrate is a professed enemie to their religion . at such times it is more like their meetings in small congregations will be full of danger , rather then that they should have libertie safely and freely to meet in such great assemblies as nationall synods . and though for lack of such a nationall covenant , the remedie be not equall to the offence or need , yet at such time that remedie being not in the power of such beleevers as are in the land , it is not required at their hands . if a whole congregation , great or small , play the foxes , and spoil the vineyard , why may it not be taken and restrained ? pa. . ans. no doubt but it may , but ever in the way , and by the means which christ hath appointed . if those foxes be particular members of the church , they may be restrained by doctrine , by discipline , and by the magistrates authoritie . if they be whole churches , they may be restrained by doctrine , and by the advise and counsell of other churches , and also by the magistrates . but if they be not members of the church , they can not be restrained by church discipline , but onely by the authoritie of the magistrate , and by the preaching of the word . to this argument the independent party reply or rather labour to obtain out of the text three things . first , that our saviour speaks here of a single church or congregation — secondly , to this single church , and to all this church entirely , not distinguishing between elders and members , he gives the keyes of excommunication and absolution — thirdly , over this church to assume a church power of judicature is a lording it over christs heritage — to the first of these exceptions we answer , that it no way appears that our saviour in this place or that , the scripture elsewhere , usually means a single congregation by the word church , but that the contrary rather is easily evincible . first , that he here spake in reference to the jewish church , which way no single congregation hath above sufficiently appeared . pag. . ans. but how in reference ? if you mean in this sence , that what ever was used in that church must be used in the christian , or that as that church was nationall , so christian churches must be the like , then we may say , no such things hath appeared at all , nor hath been so much as undertaken to be proved . if you mean onely thus , that there were such graduall proceedings in that church as christ in this place requireth , or that the word church may signifie the elders or rulers , then we may say neither of these have sufficiently appeared by any proof that you have brought ; and if they were both granted , they are nothing to the matter now in question viz. that the word church doth not signifie one single congregation ; for both these particulars may be found and made use of in such a church as is of no larger extent . next , that he hath reference herein to that of deut. . . appears by his citation of the very words of that text , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established : now there the witnesses and offenders were by way of further appeal to stand before the lord , before the priests for judgement , vers. . pag. . answ. the words are not as you cite them , before the priests for judgement ; but before the priests and judges which shall be in those dayes . and it appeareth by the punishment which these judges must inflict upon the guiltie person there spoken of , life for life , eye for eye , tooth for tooth , &c. v. . that if our saviour refer his church to do like unto that judicatory which you say he hath reference unto , then the church must have power to inflict corporall punishment , even to the taking away of life it self , because that judicatory had such power . lastly , no other place can be shewed , where our saviour used the word church for a single congregation . ans. nor can any other place be shewed where he used the word church for a synod , nor that he ever used the word at all , but onely here , and in matth. . vpon this rock will i build my church : in which place he means a synod no more then a single congregation . but for the scripture language , nothing is more manifest , then as it never anywhere useth the word church for a single congregation , unlesse happily in cor. . — so nothing is more frequent therein then to call many congregations in a province or city , by the name of a church . pag. . ans. we are willing to consider of both these particulars ; and first of the former , wherein you do acknowledge ( though a perhaps , or happily ) that in cor. . the word church is taken for a single congregation : but you may acknowledge it undoubtedly , and without any perhaps at all , because it is said , ver. . of that chapter , that the whole church cometh together in one place . and in other verses of the same chapter he speaks , how he that prophecieth edifieth the church , how interpreting is that the church may receive edifying , how it is a shame for women to speak in the church , ver. , , . yea in ver. , , . he gives them this direction , that when they come together , and every one hath a psalme , a doctrine , &c. that he that speaks in a strange tongue , if there be no interpreter , must keep silence in the church . by all which he plainly sheweth , that the name church is given to the company that did assemble and come together , for performance of spirituall duties , and for the exercise of spirituall gifts . now a company coming together is a congregation , and therefore the name of church is here given to a congregation . but besides this chapter , there are many other places where the word church is also used in the same sence : for instance , take these amongst many : act. . . and . . and . , , . cor. . , , , . joh. . in which places there is mention of assembling with the church , of gathering the church together , of being received by the church , of bearing witnesse before the church , of coming together in the church , of coming together into one place , of gathering the multitude together , and the like . which places do abundantly shew , that a company that are gathered together into one place ( which is nothing else but a congregation ) are called by the name of a church . and the christians of cenchrea which was but a little village , and therefore not like to be many congregations , yet they are stiled by the name of a church . rom. . . and though cenchrea were but the port of corinth , and not farre from it , like radcliffe or lymehouse to london , as some have observed , yet being a congregation of it self , it is a distinct church of it self , as well as corinth was . much more might be said to make it manifest , that a single congregation is called by the name of a church in many places of scripture ; and how then can that stand which is here affirmed by you , that the word is never so used , unlesse happily in cor. . and that nothing is more manifest . but whereas you say , that nothing is more frequent then to call many congregations in a province or citie , by the name of a church ; we may rather say , that this is so far from being so frequent , as nothing more , that on the contrary it is very questionable , whether it be ever so used at all in all the new testament : sure it is more frequent to call many congregations in a province or nation , by the name of churches in the plural number , and not by the name of church in the singular ; which doth strongly imply , that if they be many congregations , then they are not one church , but many . for this purpose it is to be considered , how the scripture mentions not the church , but the churches of galatia , gal. . . cor. . . of macedonia , cor. . . of judea , thess. . . gal. . . of galilee and of samaria , acts . . of syria and cilitia , acts . . and of asia , cor. . . in which one province there were seven famous churches at once , mentioned revel. . . besides others that are mentioned else-where . now as all these instances doe sufficiently shew , that something is more frequent in scripture , then to call many congregations by the name of a church , so it is worth our consideration , what should be the reason of this diffrent speech in scripture , that when it speaks of the christians of one congregation , it should frequently give them the name of a church , as we heard before ; and when it speakes of the christians in a province or countrey , where were many congregations , it should call them so usually by the name of churches in the plurall number . sure it seemes to us to be strongly implyed thereby , that one congregation of christians may be a church ; but if they be many congregations , then they are many churches , and not one onely . but you will give foure instances , where the name of a church is given to many congregations , jerusalem , rome , corinth , and ephesus . and concerning jerusalem , the number of disciples that were there , being , acts . . with . . and . . and afterward abundantly larger , it was impossible all the members should meet but by way of distribution into severall congregations . pag. . answ. how large soever that church was in those places you alledge , yet if the scripture say they did meet together in one place , then we must beleeve it was possible for them so to doe ; and that as they were but one church , so they were but one congregation . now the text is plain , first of all , that when they were but . they all met together in one place ; for otherwise how could peter stand up in the midst of them , and make a speech to them all , about the election of another apostle in the room of iudas , as he is recorded to have done , acts . next of all , when were added to them , acts . yet all that multitude before they were converted , did all come together in one place , vers. . and peter standing up , lift up his voyce and spake unto them all , vers. . and when they were converted , both they and the rest of the beleevers were not yet so many , but the multitude of them were all together , vers. . and continued daily with one accord in the temple , vers. . and when after this , ( the lord adding daily to the church such as should be saved ) the number of the men was about . acts . . yet all this company did stil meet together in one place : for it is said , that when the apostles were dismissed from the councill with threatnings , they went unto their own company and reported what the chiefe priests and elders had said unto them , vers. . and when they heard that , they lifted up their voyce in prayer to god with one accord , vers. . and when they had prayed , the place was shaken where they were assembled together , vers. . by which it is plain , that all this company , whether they were in all . or ( if you will have it so ) . besides the former number , and so in all . yet still they were all assembled in one place . and when after this , beleevers were more added to the lord , multitudes both of men and women , acts . . yet all that time they were all with one accord in salomons porch , vers. . which shewes they were not yet so many , but all did meet together in one congregation . furthermore , when after this , the number of disciples in jerusalem was more multiplied , acts . . yet the apostle called the multitude of them together , to propose unto them the choyce of deacons , vers. . and the matter being commended to them by the apostles , it is said , the saying pleased the whole multitude , and they chose seven who are there named , vers. . which shewes that the whole multitude was not so many , but they might assemble and come together in one place , to heare matters proposed , and to make election of officers . after this indeed , this church at jerusalem were all scattered by persecution , except the apostles , acts . . but when a church was gathered again by the apostles ministery , that church , even all the multitude of them , as well as the apostles and elders , did all assemble and meet together with one accord in one congregation , about the businesse of the controversie that arose at antioch ; so it is plainly said , acts . that paul and barnabas comming from antioch , were received of the church at jerusalem , and of the apostles and elders , vers. . and it pleased the apostles and elders , with the whole church , to send messengers to antioch , vers. . and to that church letters are written from the apostles and elders , and brethren , vers. . being all assembled with one accord , verse . which plainly shewes that the church at jerusalem at this time , did not consist of apostles and elders alone , as a representative church , but of others also , who are expresly distinguished from those officers : and yet all this church did assemble with one accord in one place . lastly , for that place , . where you say ; it is plain , that when the church met collectively , it was in the presbyters and elders . and that in this church at jerusalem the collective meetings were representative in their elders . the answer is , that wee deny not but elders may meet apart from the multitude if there be occasion , and so much may be proved from verse . where it is said , paul went in unto james , and all the elders were present ; but this is nothing to the point in hand , that the church at jerusalem was so numerous , that all the members could not meet in one , but in severall congregations : nay , that very place ( though it speak of many thousand jewes that did beleeve , verse . ) yet as it doth not say , that all these were of that one church at jerusalem ; so there are good divines that doe think they were not : but if they were , it nothing prejudiceth our cause in this matter ; for when james and the elders speaking to paul of the jewes , doe tell him , the multitude must needs come together , for they will heare that thou art come , verse . it appeares thereby , that their multitude was not such , but they might all assemble and come together . if any say , how can these things be , that so many thousands as were members of the church at jerusalem , should all yet be but one congregation , besides what hath been said to shew that thus it was ; such an one may consider further , that many thousands , yea miriads , were gathered together , luke . . and christ spake unto them all , though unto his disciples first , verse , , , . and that parishes in england in or about london , and else-where , as stepney , giles , sepulchres , and others , have many thousand inhabitants in them , all members of one parishionall church , and yet all but one congregation . and that of chrysostome on matth. . who as mr. bayn reports , dioe . triall , pag. . did esteem the company that heard his voice in one congregation , to be about . persons , and that by means of scaffolds and galleries , a man lifting up his voyce , may so speak , as to be heard of thousands at a time . all which being considered , doe make it lesse incredible , that the church at jerusalem , consisting of such a great multitude , yet for all that might bee no more but one ordinarie congregation . next , for the church at rome in the apostles time , stiled every where in that epistle , by the name of church , not churches . pag. . answ. we suppose it is a plain mistake , that the church at rome is every where in that epistle stiled by the name of a church . for ought we remember in that epistle , it is never so stiled at all ; and yet we deny not but it was a church , and one church . but ( say you ) can it be thought that the faith and obedience of a church in such a citie , could be famous throughout all the world , as the apostle speaks , rom. . . & . . and yet but one single independent congregation ? answ. we know nothing to the contrary but it might be so : for the church at thessalonica was but one congregation , and yet from them sounded out the word of the lord , not only in macedonia and achaia , but also in every place , their faith to god-ward was spread abroad , thess. . . and there might be other means to make their faith famous , as well as plurality of congregations ; as the resort and confluence of people of all sorts and nations to the place where this church dwelt , rome being the seat of the empire , and the lady of kingdomes at that time : also the good will of the godly , the malice of the wicked , the newfanglednesse of most , would open the mouthes of many to talke of the faith and profession of the christian romans , though they were no more but one congregation . those very persons and families named in the apostles salutations of that church , even those choycer families were able to fill severall congregations . answ. we dare not say so : for there is not named above . in all . sure if . families fill severall congregations , then those congregations must be very small ones . tertullian tells us , that in his time the citie was at least halfe christian : and cornelius tells us , that besides himselfe , there were in that church . presbyters . answ. but the question being , whether many congregations be frequently called in scripture by the name of a church , these testimonies being not from scripture doe not suit the question , therefore we will not insist upon them , but onely say this much ; that as they are both alledged by doctor downam , and them of the hierarchy that plead for diocesan churches against congregational , so they are both sufficiently answered by mr. bain , in his diocesan triall , p. , . and by the refuter of d. downams sermon at lambeth . p. . next , the church at corinth every where stiled a church , not churches . answ. this we grant : but why might it not be one congregation , as well as one church ; the onely reason you bring to the contrary is , because they had so many instructers , cor. . . and builders , cor. . . so many prophets ( say you ) and teachers , speakers with tongues , — could not questionlesse have their ordinary locall meetings , but by way of distribution into severall congregations . answ. this arguing about the church of corinth , doth not very well agree with that which went before , p. . where you seemed to grant , that though no other place in scripture , yet that place , corinth . . doth give the name of church to one single congregation ; whereas now you give corinth also as one instance where many congregations are called a church . it is strange to us , how corinth should be an example of both these , viz. of the name of church given to one single congregation , as you doe acknowledge , pag. . and of many congregations called by the name of one church , as now you would have it . but the place , . cor. . . that speakes of the whole church commiug together into one place , doth unavoidably prove ( for ought we can discern ) that corinth had their meetings , and not by way of distribution into severall congregations , but altogether in one congregation : and doth also answer your reason drawn from the variety of teachers and prophets in that church : for it is plain from that very chapter , that the church of corinth had many prophets ; let the prophets speake two or three , and let the rest judge , vers. . and many that spake with tongues , who must speake by course two or three ▪ and one interpret , verse . yea every one generally had a psalme , or a doctrine , or a revelation , or an interpretation , verse . as indeed they came behind in no gift , cor. . & yet for all their variety of gifts , and gifted men , prophets , interpreters , speakers with tongues , and the like , both they and the whole church also , even women and all , used to come together into one place . but it is with much instance urged generally by all the separatists , that those among whom the corinthian fornicatou● was — they were all to be gathered together , and all to deliver him to satan ; therefore the power of the keye is alike in all the members , — and not in the elders alone . pag. . answ. this and all that follows for two whole pages may be something pertaining to the second of your three exceptions forementioned ; but nothing concerns the question now in hand . for whether the church of corinth , that must excommunicate the incestuous man , were the elders alone , as you hold ; or all the people also , as others : this is nothing to the present point of the sence of the word church , which is , whether is be taken in scripture , for many congregations or one onely : and therefore we marvell why you would here bring it in . neither indeed is it any thing to the maine question , of the dependencie of congregations upon the government of synods ; for if all were granted , that here is argued for , viz. that the church that must excommunicate the delinquent corinthian was not the common people , but the elders alone , yet the authoritie of synods is not a whit holpen thereby ; unlesse it could be proved that the church of corinth had no elders of their own ; which we are perswaded you will not affirm , because you grant pag. . that they had many instructors , many builders , many leaders , many prophets and teachers . wherefore this dispute being besides the question , we will not spend time in answering of it , because we would hasten to go forward with the rest , that pertains to the question , as you have stated it . your last instance of many congregations , called by the name of church , is ephesus , where you argue , there must needs be many congregations , because there was a great doore , and effectuall opened unto paul , so mightily there grew the word of god and prevailed , the greatnesse of the price of the conjuring books burnt publickly , and god himself testifies , he had many people in that citie . answ. when the lord saith to paul , i have much people in the city , it is a plain mistake to understand this of ephesus , for it was spoken of corinth , and not of ephesus . act. . . but if it had been spoken of ephesus , as we deny not , but that there were many christians there , how doth this prove the point , that they were not one congregation , but many ? we do not think they were more in number , then in corinth and jerusalem , where the christians , as we have shewed , did usually meet in one place ; and therefore at ephesus , they might do the like , though there were a great number of christians there . as for that which you say , that as this church could not possibly ordinarily in all its members meet but distributively ; so that it did meet collectively in its presbytery and eldership ; that which ordained timothy ( there by the apostles own testimony ) appears in the . . and . verses of the . chapter , beyond all exception . we answer thereto , it is not beyond all exception , that at ephesus was one church consisting of many congregations , which is our question . it may be granted that the elders of that church upon paul's sending for them did meet at miletum apart from the people , as was noted before out of act. . of the elders of jerusalem ; but this is nothing to our question , whether a church be many congregations , or one onely . as much might he said of the other of the seven churches of asia , with that at antioch , philippi and thessalonica . ans. and if as much were said of these as of the other , as much might also be answered . and though philippi and thessalonica had many bishops , deacons , overseers , yet all this is too short to prove they were many congregations ; for what should hinder but one congregation may have many officers ? that which followeth in this sixteenth page , and so forward to the middle of pag. . is spent in answering the other two exceptions which you formerly proposed pag. . concerning which we need not to spend much time ; the one of them , as we said before , is altogether besides the purpose , and on which side soever the truth doth lie in that matter , the present question is nothing at all cleared thereby ; and for the other , we leave it to them that make it to undertake the defence of it . for us it is sufficient to have shewed that all that you have said from matth. . tell the church , doth not prove that congregations must depend upon the government of synods , nor that many congregations are in scripture usually called by the name of a church ; and this being alreadie performed in that which we have answered , we therefore now proceed to consider of your third argument . chap. iiii. containing an answer to your third argument from acts . if that all ancient and modern writers , of all sorts , ( excepting onely some few of these last fiftie yeers , engaged by their own tenet of independency ) have with one voice concluded this chapter , a formall president for synods , would weigh any thing herein , the matter would soon be at an end ; but however the ●ext it self is so pregnant of this truth , that it hath of it self strength enough to deliver it self of it . here 's all that goes to the making up of a compleat synod , first , here 's the occasion — secondly , here 's a designation both of the commissioners and place , — thirdly , here 's the matter of a synod , — fourthly , here 's the form of a synod , — fifthly , here 's the end of a synod , — lastly , here 's the proper effect of a synod , — pag. . if all this were granted , yet the thing in difference , as your self have stated the question , in pa. , , . of your book , is not concluded thereby . for all this that is here said , goeth no further , but onely to shew that there ought to be synods ; whereas the question is about the power of synods , and how far the same doth reach , whether so far as that a synod onely ( and not a particular congregation ) ought to ordain officers , and excommunicate offenders : and between these two is a wide difference ; so that many a man may acknowledge the former , which is all that is here concluded , and yet not acknowledge the latter , which is the maine point , which should have been cleared . for our parts we deny not but there ought to be synods , and your argument concludes no more : yea your self do testifie , pag. . that those whom you deal against , do acknowledge as much in effect as here by you is concluded ; for there you say that they acknowledge , that neighbour churches may meet , consult and advise , &c. and if they acknowledge all this , then they acknowledge a use of synods , because these things we suppose , cannot be done by many churches at once , unlesse it be by their messengers , and deputies assembled together , which assembly is no other then a synod . wherefore sith no more is here concluded , then is by the independents parties ( as you call them ) acknowledged , we need not insist long , in giving answer to this argument . we will therefore onely briefly mention some grounds , that incline us to think that this assembly in act. . was a synod , and then give some annotations upon some few passages in your discourse about this place , and so proceed to the next argument . touching the former , when we say this meeting in act. . was a synod , we mean at least such an one as mr. parker pol. eccl. lib. . c. . sect. . understands it to be , viz. a consociation or combination of more churches then one , even of two at least . or as doctor whitakar who counts it neither a generall councill , nor yet a nationall , or provinciall , but a particular councill , as he cals it , lesse then either of the other . de concil. q. . c. . and that matters were carried in it , in way of an ordinarie synod , may appear by two things . the persons imployed in it , which were not onely the apostles , those extraordinarie officers , but also the ordinarie elders and brethren of jerusalem . ver. , , . and besides paul and barnabas , certain others that were sent with them from antioch , v. . secondly , the meanes used for clearing the controversie , then in hand , was not the apostolicall authoritie , nor any extra ordinarie revelation , vouchsafed to the apostles and such extra ordinarie persons : there is not a word mentioned of any such thing ; but the means they used , was the same , that is common to ordinarie synods , viz. much disputation , v. . peter's experience of gods blessing upon his ministerie , to cornelius , and his companie , v. . and the like is done by paul and barnabas , for their part , ver. . and as for james , he alledgeth the testimonie of the prophet amos , v. , . and the law of moses , read and preached in the synagogues , everie sabbath day , v. . now all these means being no other , but such as may be used , in ordinarie synods , therefore we see no other , but this meeting might be such an one . here is a designation ( say you ) of the commissioners and place . p. . answ. but these commissioners , and this place , were designed onely by them of antioch , v. . which shews that this meeting , was not of any more , but two churches , antioch and jerusalem : for if there had been more , how came it to passe , that onely they of antioch determine the place ? reason would have required , that if there had been others , they also should have had a voice in determining the place of meeting . here is the matter of a synod , not onely apostles but elders , and of severall churches . pag. . answ. true : but these churches are not mentioned , to be any other , but onely antioch and jerusalem . both thus meeting , to determine so great a matter , consequently all matter of jurisdiction , is not confined to one single congregation . pag. . answ. the matter determined , was a matter of doctrine , viz. whether circumcision was necessarie to salvation : v. . and there fore no matter of jurisdiction , unlesse jurisdiction , and doctrine be the same . and though they that taught this doctrine , ( if they perfisted pertinaciously therein , ) deserved to be censured , as you do truly alledge , from tit. . . reject an heretick , the dispencing of which censure , is a matter of jurisdiction . yet ( for ought that doth appear to the contrary ) both these churches might concur , to clear up the doctrine , and yet one onely , even that congregation ( whereof the offenders were properly members ) might dispence the censure , that was due for their pertinacious defence of such doctrine . the concurrence of both , to clear up the doctrine , doth argue want of light in the one ; but neverthelesse there might be entirenesse , of jurisdiction in each . but if churches had then been independent , antioch had undertaken and been able her selfe sufficiently , and finally to have judged the cause , and prevented the danger . answ. antioch did undertake to have ended the matter among themselves , and spent much time about it , before there was any speech of seeking out for help elsewhere , as appears , vers. . and this doth sufficiently declare it , that they were not necessarily dependant upon any other church , or churches , but had right to have ended the matter within themselves , if ability had served thereto , or else this undertaking of theirs had been sinfull , as being an attempting to doe that whereto they had no right . and though by reason of much dissention among themselves , they were forced to seek for help for ending the cause , this may argue want of ability and light , but argues not any want at all of authority or right : in which respect they might be independent , notwithstanding their imperfection in the other regard . suppose a father of children , or master of a family , through want of wisdome , or courage , be not able to rule his own children , and houshold , as eli , or suppose a king that is a child , as salomon speaks , ( eccles. . ) or princes that are babes , ( as the prophet termeth them , isai. . ) be not able to govern their own subjects , as rehoboam , king. . would you think this want of sufficient ability , a sufficient argument to prove , that such a father or master , had no authority or right to rule his own children , or houshold ; nor such a prince any right to rule his subjects ; but that the families of the one must depend upon other families ; and the common-wealth of the other upon other common-wealths ? we suppose you would not say so ? and yet you may as well say it , as say as here you doe , that if churches had been independent , antioch had been able her selfe sufficiently to have ended the cause . antioch finding her selfe not able , may send to jerulem for help ; and yet this sending neither proves right of jurisdiction in them of jerusalem , who are sent unto , nor want of jurisdiction in them of antioch , who so doe send . yes , say you . an obliging the churches by decrees , laid on them , as a burden , is a use of the keyes , in which use of them , ephesus is commended , pergamus and thyatyra reproved , pag. . answ. but if this be a use of the keyes , may it not be of the key of doctrine , as well as the key of discipline , sith the burdens laid on them , were not burdens of penalty , but burdens of duty ; not punishments to be suffered for offence given ; but rules of practice to be observed , lest offence should be taken ; as is plaine , if the particulars be considered , pag. . and therefore it seems the imposing these burdens , was not so properly an act of jurisdiction , and discipline , as an act of doctrine . as for ephesus , the use of the keyes ( for which they are commended ) is not ( as you affirme ) for imposing decrees as burdens upon one another ; nor is pergamus or thyatyra reproved , for neglect of so doing , but trying and detecting counterfeit apostles , which was a matter of doctrine , and not bearing with them that were evil , which was matter of discipline , are the things for which ephesus is commended ; and suffring them which were evill ( which was a neglect of discipline ) is that for which the other are reproved , rev. . . . . but neither is the one commended for imposing decrees , nor the other reproved for neglecting so to doe . but you will prove that the synod had jurisdiction and power of the keyes of discipline ; because , say you , this decree is it self a rule given , wherein and whereby to use the keyes , upon such as shall prove stubborn , in defending the contrary of what is here decreed — , and that authority which can give the rule , can ( a fortiori ) back and punish its breach . p. . ans. but is this certain and clear , that whoever hath authority by way of doctrine , to impose a rule , hath also authoritie , by way of discipline , to punish its breach ? we propose to consideration , these instances for the contrarie . first of all the prophets in israel , isaiah , joel , amos , and the rest , had authoritie by way of doctrine , ( as being sent of god for that purpose ) to deliver the wil of god , as a rule to be observed , not onely by all the princes , and people , but even by the priests and levits also ; for so we read they many times did , and yet not being priests themselves , nor levites , they had not authority to punish , by way of discipline , such as disobeyed their doctrine , and those holy rules which they delivered from the lord . nextly , any one minister , who is truely sent of god , may in his doctrine , deliver the rules of gods word , to the people he is sent unto , and impose those rules as burthens , and necessary things to be observed ; and yet one minister alone cannot punish the breach of those rules , in a way of discipline , because church-discipline is to be dispenced by a church , matth. . . and one man alone ( we are perswaded ) you will not say , can be a church . further , any minister or ministers of one church ( be it congregationall or nationall ) may upon occasion being desired thereto , preach the word of god in another the like church , and so impose burdens of christian duties to be observed by them , that they thus occasionally preach unto ; yet it would not follow they might by discipline punish such as should walke contrary to those rules , because the power of jurisdiction which they have when they are at home in their owne church , doth not reach so farre as unto that other church where now they are called to preach the doctrine of the word . lastly , there is no doubt but any minister , or ministers of the gospel ( if occasion served thereunto ) might by way of doctrine deliver rules of faith and obedience , unto pagans , and such as are no members of any christian church at all , and might command them in the name of the lord , to observe those rules ; and yet it would not therefore follow , that they might punish those pagans in a way of discipline , for the breach of those rules ; because the apostle saith plainly , what have i to doe to judge them that are without ? cor. . . yea , there are sundry good writers in reformed churches , who do hold , that doctors in the church have authority by their office , to deliver sound wholsome doctrine , from the scriptures , and yet may not meddle , with dispensation of sacraments , nor discipline ; see among others for this , calvines instit. lib. . ch. . sect. . and if this be so , this may be another instance for the same purpose as the rest , and by all this , we suppose it is clear , that some men may have authoritie , by way of doctrine , to impose rules , that must be observed , as necessary things , and yet not have authoritie , by way of discipline , to punish those that shall disobey those rules . and therefore though the first of these were granted , to be within the power of a synod , yet that they have power to do the other also , is not proved thereby . chap. v. containing an answer to your fourth argument , taken from tim. . . laying on of the hands of the presbytery . hence i argue thus . such as are for independency , admit of no other rule in church-government , but the scripture practise or institution , but where in all the scripture , read we of any ordination , of pastors , but by presbyters ? — timothy was ordained by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery : titus was for this very cause , left at creet that he should ordain elders in every city . pag. , . answ. all that is here said is onely about ordination of officers , which ( at the most ) is but one part of the ecclesiasticall government , or jurisdiction . and therefore if it were granted , that this ordination belongeth onely to a synod , yet the question ( being not of one part , but of the whole jurisdiction ) is not concluded thereby . neverthelesse we are willing to consider what is said about this particular , and therefore our answer is distinctly thus . that if a congregation have elders of it own , then when other officers are to be ordained , in that church , such ordination is to be performed , by the imposition of the hands of those elders . this we never denied , and a good deale of your proofs , do conclude no more . for what if the presbyterie at ephesus , did lay hands upon timothy , tim. . . and the presbyterie , at antioch upon paul , and barnabas , act. . , . which are two of your proofs ? this may evince , that in churches furnished with a presbyterie , ( as ephesus and antioch were ) that that presbyterie is to perform imposition of hands , which is nothing against us , neither do willingly acknowledge the same . but it may be in this argument you intend a further matter , viz. that ordination cannot be performed lawfully , by any , but onely by elders . for where ( say you ) in all the scripture do we read of any ordination of pastors but by presbyters ? whereto we answer three things . that we do read of such a matter in the scripture . that if we did not , yet we read so much as b● good consequence doth infer the lawfulnesse of the practise . that which we do read , that may seeme , to make against this practise , is not because the thing , is in every case , unlawfull , but for other reasons . for the first of these , we alledge numb. . . which place sheweth , that though the levites were church officers , and the children of israel were none , yet the children of israel did lay their hands upon the levites ; by which scripture , thus much is manifest , that when a church hath no elders , but the first elders themselves are to be ordained , and this at such times , and in such places , where elders can not conveniently be borrowed from any other church , in such case imposition of hands may lawfully be performed , by some principall men of the congregation , although they be not elders by office ; for sith it was so in the church of israel as this text doth witnesse , what should hinder but in the like case , the like may be lawfully done in these dayes ? if any shall ask how was it possible , that the children of israel , being should all lay hands upon the levites at once ? answer . it is not like that all did it , but some instead of the rest : and so when some do impose hands , in stead of all the congregation , that may be sufficient . if it shall be said , these children of israel , might be elders , and so their example will be no warrant for imposition of hands by non-elders : the answer is , it is like they were elders , as being the chief and principall members , of the congregation ; but yet their example proveth the point if two things be considered . first , that they did not this as a work peculiar to them as elders . secondly , that they did it not for themselves onely , but for all the congregation ; the former of which may be thus manifested ; if they did it as elders , then either as elders and governours ecclesiasticall , or as civill governours but not the first , for that charge was onely belonging to aaron and his sons , levit. . and these levites now ordained , if the second be said , then it will follow , that civill magistrates though no church officers , may impose hands in ordination of church officers , and so the point is gained . for if magistrates may do it , then it will follow that a church wanting magistrates may perform this action by other the fittest instruments she hath . for this is not a work properly tied to the magistrates office ; because then the church in the apostles time , wanting magistrates , could not have had officers ; the contrary whereof is manifest in the scripture , act. . . tit. . . secondly , as these children of israel ( suppose they were the chief fathers of families ) imposed hands on the levites , not as elders and governours ecclesiasticall , or civill but as principall members of the church , so what was herein performed by them , was not done by themselves onely , but for all the congregation . and this appears , first because these levites now to be ordained by imposition of hands , were taken in stead of all the first-born of israel , and not in stead of the first born of elders onely : numb. . , . secondly , they were presented to the lord , as an offering of the children of israel , numb. . . and not of the elders onely ; and inasmuch as all offerings were to be presented at the doore of the tabernacle , with the imposition of his hands whose the offering was , levit. . . . it is therfore evident , that they that imposed hands on the levites , did it in the name of all the people , whose offering these levites were . thirdly , it was usuall , that when all the multitude brought an oblation , the elders put their hands on the head of the sacrifice . levit. . , . viz. in stead of all the multitude , whose the sacrifice was . and thus you see , we read in scriptures of the imposition of hands , performed by them that were no elders , by office , and so this demand of yours , where in scripture do we read of such a practise , is answered . but if we did not read of any such thing , yet it may suffice ( which was our second particular to be proved ) that we do read so much as by good consequence , inferreth the lawfulnesse of the practise . and for this purpose , first , we propound act. . act. . and act. . where we read of the peoples electing , and chusing officers , of which places , more may be spoken afterward ; now if the people may elect officers , then in some cases , they may ordain them also , because ordination is lesse then election , and depends upon it as a necessarie antecedent ; by vertue whereof it is justly administred . yea it is not onely lesse then election , but lesse in the same kind , being nothing else , but the accomplishment of election , or the admission of a person into the possession of that office , whereto he had right before by election . and hence it follows by good consequence , that if a single congregation , may elect officers , which is the greater , they may also in some case ordain them , which is the lesser . for your self do grant that to argue affirmatively , from the greater , to the lesser in the same kind is good consequence , and such is this ; which kind of arguing is also used by doctor whitaker concerning this very particular . besides , we read , heb. . . that imposition of hands is amongst the principles of religion , and joyned by the apostle with baptisme , resurrection , and the eternall judgement ; and therefore an institution of ordinary and perpetuall use , as all principles are , and so not to be omitted in the ordination of officers . and if so , it will therefore follow , that in some case it may be performed by such as are not in office ; because the case may so be , that otherwise it cannot be performed at all , so that either no officers must be ordained , nor any imposition of hands used at all ; or else imposition of hands in some case may be performed by them that are not in office . now that it cannot alwayes be performed by officers , three instances make it manifest : first , when there are no officers of any other church to be had , as at the first rise of the first christian church in a pagan countrey , far remote from all churches , as here in america by the english ; & in the case which you put of a company of christians by shipwrack cast upon an iland where no pastors were . secondly , when those that may be had , are so exceedingly corrupt , and the churches to whom they do belong , that it could not be convenient to make use of them , but very dangerous to fetch ordination onely from them , as at the first reformation after the times of popery , when there were none to be had , but from the popish bishops and priests ; from whom to receive ordination , were as much as to say , either that the ministers of antichrist may ordain ministers to the church of christ , or else that popish bishops are true ministers of christ : and sure if christians might not have any ministers , unlesse ordained by the popish bishops , the case were as pittifull as if sheep might have no shepheards , but such are appointed to them by the wolves . thirdly , when those that are more desireable , have no sufficient calling to dispence ordination in another church which is the case when they are not requested thereto ; for sith ordinary elders are not like apostles , to feed all flocks , but that flock of god , which dependeth upon them , pet. . . that flock over which the holy ghost hath made them over-seers , acts . . therefore wee doe not understand , how they can assume authority and power unto themselves , to ordain elders to other churches , whereof themselves are neither elders nor members , unlesse they had a calling thereto , by the request of that church where the elders are to be ordained . so that by these instances it appeareth , that sometimes officers of other churches are not to be had , sometimes those that may be had , are as ill as none , and not to be depended on , or desired ; and sometimes those that are more desireable , have no sufficient calling to ordain ministers in any other church ; and therefore in such cases as these , sith officers must not be admitted without imposition of hands , imposition of hands must be performed by non-officers . but you will say , we read in sundry places , where imposition of hands , was performed by elders , and not one place in all the new testament , where it was performed by others . whereto we answer , that all this is true , but nothing against what we have said ; because ( which was our third particular to be cleared ) the true reason of this , that is here alledged , was not , as if ordination by non-elders were in every case unlawfull : but because in those times elders were not wanting ; for there were the apostles and apostolicke men , who were elders in all churches . and we do willingly grant , that where a church is furnished with elders , imposition of hands is to be performed by the elders , and so much the examples in the new testament doe evince . but we have also shewed from numb. . that if there be no elders , as at the first , nor any that can conveniently be gotten from other churches , then imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by others . but you will prove , that it doth not belong to the congregation with or without a pastor , to ordain elders ; because the rules of direction , how to proceed in ordination , and the epistles wherein those rules are , are not written or directed to the whole churches of ephesus or creet , but to timothy and titus only , as their inscriptions speaks . answ. if this be a sufficient reason , to prove that the people may not in any case , meddle with ordination , then by as good a reason , a man may prove that ordination belongs not to the presbytery , nor to the synods , but onely to one man , as the prelats would have it : for a man may turn the reason against your selfe , and say , the rules of direction how to proceed in ordination , and the epistles wherein those rules are , are not directed to any presbytery or synod at ephesus or creet , or anywhere else , but onely to timothy and titus , who were each of them but onely one man . but look how you would answer this plea for episcopall ordination , the same answer may be given to yours . and for us , we cannot but approve the answer given to this kind of reasoning , by the refuter of doctor downhams sermon at lambeth , who in his reply , part . . pag. . doth shew , that the lawes of church-government prescribed in the epistles of timothy and titus , were not provided for bishops alone , nor elders alone , but for a mixt state , wherein many presbyters under the guidance of one pastor or president , doe administer and execute all matters with the peoples consent and approbation . in which affirmation he alledgeth the consent of most & best divines of later times , instancing in calvin & beza , & especially the apostles own warrant in the close of thoses epistles , with these words , grace be with you , or with you all , tim. . . tit. . . and by this , saith he , it appeareth , that what was written specially by name to timothy & titus , was intended to be of common use , not only for other ministers , but also in some sort to all the saints that then conversed in those places . now if what was written by name to timothy and titus , was intended to be of common use to all the saints , then there is no reason that you should appropriate those rules onely to the use of presbyteries and synods , no more then others only to the use of prelats ; especially this being considered withall , that if once the saints be excluded from being at all concerned in those rules , they that would appropriate them to one man , have a fairer colour for their plea , then they that would appropriate them to a presbyterie , or synod , consisting of many ; because timothy or titus to whom those epistles are by name directed , are not many persons , but either of them one onely . but it appeares , say you , that we read in scripture , that this part of jurisdiction was dispensed by the eldership onely , and that a consociated eldership . pag. . answ. that it was dispensed by the eldership , we willingly grant ; but that it was dispensed by the eldership onely , and that the eldership by which it was dispensed , was a consociated eldership ( that is to say , a synod ) neither of these doe appeare at all : nay , we suppose the contrary to both these may appeare . for as for the former , we have shewed the contrary already ; and for the latter , we will onely instance in that eldership at antioch , acts . that laid hands on paul and barnabas , which eldership was not any synod , but an eldership of one congregation : for it is plain out of acts . . that the church of antioch was no more then might be gathered together in one place ; yea , the whole multitude of them were gathered together at the return of paul and barnabas from the synod at jerusalem , to heare the epistle read which was sent from that synod , acts . . . and therefore this church being but one congregation , that eldership therein by whom paul and barnabas were ordained , could not be any synod . but , say you , there must be triall of parties to be ordained , and hands must not be laid on suddenly on any , and 't is laid down what kind of men they ought to be , before they be ordained . and that this triall and approbation of the parties to be ordained , is in the hands of the presbyterie , and consociated eldership , not the whole . pa. . answ. that they ought to be tried , before they be ordained , yea and afore they be chosen , we freely grant ; but that this triall is in the synod alone , hath not appeared , by the former texts , nor by any of them . we cannot perceive how any of them , do in any sort , look towards such a thing . and as for this which is here alledged of the impossibilitie of discharging it by a single congregation , with or without a pastor ; we answer thereto ; first , that if a congregation that is without a pastor could not discharge it , yet if they be furnished with an able and faithfull pastor , we know not what should hinder but they might be able thereto . an able and faithfull pastor , one would think should be able to try others , that are to be ordained pastors ; and therefore we marvell that you should denie this abilitie to this congregation , as well as to the other . secondly , suppose they be without a pastor , yet if they be beleevers , they are not altogether without abilitie of spirituall discerning , to discern whether that which is taught be wholsome doctrine , or otherwise . witnesse the words of our saviour , who saith , that his sheep know his voice , but a stranger they will not follow , but will flee from him , for they know not the voice of strangers : and though there had been many theeves and robbers , yet the sheep did not hear them . joh. . which plainly shews , that the sheep of christ , have some abilitie , to trie and discern , whether the doctrine that men teach , be the wholsome doctrine of truth , or otherwise . which may be the more confirmed , by the promise , they shall be all taught of god , isa. . . and by that of joh. . that if any man will do gods will , he shall know the doctrine , whether it be of god , or men speak it of themselves . there must be some abilitie to discern , whether men be qualified according to the rule , afore they ought to be elected , and chosen into office ; and the people of god have so much abilitie , to discerne this fitnesse , as that they may lawfully , make this election ; and what then should hinder , but they may have so much abilitie , as is of necessitie required , afore there be proceedings unto ordination . as for that instance which you give about the union of the two natures in the person of christ , whether the nature assumed the nature , or the person the person ; or the nature the person , or the person the nature . and again , whether this assumption was by way of composition , or conjunction , or conversion , or vision ( we suppose it should be union ) wherein you think it would be hard for these examiners in a congregation , to hit upon the right judgement , and of four preachers to ordain him that were orthodox in this matter . we say no more to this instance , but onely thus much , that as he is the best preacher who most teacheth the people knowledge , eccles. . and who had rather speake five words to the understanding , so as he may teach others , and the hearers be edisied , rather then ten thousand words in a strange tongue , and uncoth termes , that himselfe might be admired , cor. . . so we know nothing but the people of god in a congregation : these terms being explained unto them , might be able to discern which were the orthodox tenent of the four particulars , and accordingly pitch upon him that holds it . lastly , you speak , pag. . of four things that are opposed about this matter of ordination . where , though we will not take upon us to justifie all those reasons , but leave them to the authors of them , to undertake the defence of them , if so be there be any that doe so argue ; yet we may speak a word or two to some passages in your answer to these four particulars . first of all , to the case of a company of beleevers cast by ship-wrack upon an island , where are no pastors , your answer is , that the question is about the ordinary way of scripture-institution in this matter of ordination , not what may be done in extraordinary cases . whereby it seems that in the case proposed , you grant ordination may be performed by non-elders . and if so , what then becomes of all you have said before of timothy and titus , and of the rules about ordination in the epistles to these two evangelists , of the presbytery at antioch , that laid hands upon paul and barnabas , of the inability of people to examine and try who were fit for office , and the rest ? for granting what here you doe , you plainly declare , that all your former reasoning amounts but to this much , that when pastors can be had , then imposition of hands is best performed by those pastors , otherwise it may be done without them ; wherein we for our parts consent with you . but by this means the necessary dependance upon synods for ordination of officers , is utterly overthrowne . but , say you , indepencie of every single congregation , to bee the ordinary way , herein is the claime of the independent party . answ. what others claim , they may declare their grounds for the same as they see cause ; for our selves , that which we hold , with the grounds thereof , is briefly this , in four propositions ; two of them concerning what is to be done in case a chhurch have elders of its own : and two concerning what is to be done in case it have not . in respect of the former . proposition . if a church have elders of its own , imposition of hands in ordination is to be performed by those elders , and not by the people . proposition . a church that hath elders of its own , needs not to depend upon a synod , or the presbyteries of other churches , consociat or single , for the the ordaining of its officers ; but the same may be performed lawfully and sufficiently by its owne elders . in respect of the latter : . in a church that hath no elders , imposition of hands in ordaining of officers , may lawfully be performed by some principall members in the congregation . . if the church have elders of its own , it may doe well to crave the approbation of the ministers of neighbouring congregations if there be any such . the grounds of the first and third of these propositions hath been declared already ; and for the second we thus argue : arg. . if such a church may elect and chuse officers to it self , without any necessary dependance upon synods ; then they may ordain them also , having so fit instruments as elders of their own to doe it by . but the first is true , as we have elsewhere shewed in this answer of ours : therfore the second is true also . the consequence of the major is cleare by this reason , that they which can doe the greater , can doe the lesser also , if it be of the same kind . arg. . if such a church as we here speak of , may not ordaine their officers without dependance on a synod , or a classis ; then neither may they administer seals without such dependance : for the word makes such dependance , no more requisite in the one case , then in the other . arg. . if it were not thus , it were not possible , there should be any synod or classis upon the face of the earth ; for what is a classis or a synod ? but a companie of ministers or elders , of severall congregations , assembled together to consider of things concerning themselves , and the churches of christ , specially such churches , whereto they do peculiarly belong ; now this assembling of elders into a classis or synod , doth imply that there were elders before there was any classis , or synod ; and if so , then certainly there was no concurrence , of the classis or synod in the ordination of those elders ; sith they were elders before that synod had any being ; which doth sufficiently shew , that the concurrence of a synod , is not alwaies required in the ordaining of elders . obj. if it be said the synod did ordain timothy , an evangelist , an officer of many churches , tim. . . and therefore much more must ordain officers of one particular church . the answer is , first , that the consequence is not strong , because a particular church might have authoritie sufficient , to ordain by their eldership the officers of their particular church onely ; and not sufficient to ordain such as must be officers in all churches , whatsoever . the help of a classis or synod , where is a combination or consociation of elders , of many churches , might be requisite for ordaining an officer of many churches , and yet the eldership of our particular church , might be sufficient for ordaining such a one , as is to be officer , to no more but onely to that particular church . secondly , the ground hence is not certain . for though timothy was an evangelist , and so to travell from one church to another , yet the presbyterie tim. . . that laid hands on him , might be the presbyterie of one particular church , and not any synod or classis . for paul and barnabas were apostles , act. . . and . gal. . . and yet they were ordained , not by any classis or presbyterie of many churches , but by the presbyterie of one church , the church at antioch . act. . , , . those ( say they ) that can do the greater ( that is to say ) make a church , can do the lesse , make pastors of that church . ans. we would rather argue thus ; those that have power of electing officers , they have power of ordaining officers ; but the people that have no officers , have the former . therefore they have power to do the latter . the consequence is proved , because electing is greater then ordaining , and greater not in another kind , but in the same ; viz. about the placing of a minister , or the designing of a person to the office , of ministerie . now an argument from the greater to the lesse , in the same kind , you confesse will hold . which visible ministery where it is , this propertie or proper power of ordaining officers , is a necessarie and immediate ordinarie concomitant thereof . pag. . answ. if this be so , then there may be officers ordained , and not by a synod , even in a particular congregation ; because in such a one there may be a visible ministerie . although that which you have said in this argument , be not expresly against the congregations , electing their officers ; but onely against their ordaining of them , by imposition of hands ; yet in asmuch as sundrie passages in your book , and in this argument especially , do seem to make as much against the one , as the other . therefore as we have alreadie spoken , to the point of ordination , so we will also , for the readers further direction , give some grounds for confirmation of this position , about election , viz. election of ordinarie officers belongeth to the church , whereof the partie is to be an officer , so that they proceed in this election , according to the rules of the word ; both chusing a man fitted by god for the office , unto which they chuse him , and carrying their choice , in an orderly manner . reason it was thus in the apostles times , and therefore it ought to be so now . the antecedent is clear from act. . where in the very choice of an apostle , the church are not wholly excluded ; for though the office of an apostle being extraordinarie , the expresse designing of the particular person , is determined by god by lot , yet the church appoints two that one of them may be singled out , v. . and when the lot had fallen upon matthias , it is said he was numbred with the eleven apostles , v. . that is , he was by common suffrage of the churchchosen to be of that number ; for so doth the word signifie , that is used , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and therefore it is translated by scapula , omnium calculis allectus . and it is observable , that though the office was extraordinarie , and though the apostles ( who were extraordinarie officers , and had received their calling and extraordinarie authoritie from christ himself , immediately ) were now present , yet for all this , the church hath a stroke in this matter , both first appointing two , and then approving by their common suffrage or consent him of the two , on whom the lot had fallen ; to be for instruction unto us in after times , that in the choice of ordinarie officers , it should be farre from any of the sons of men , to exclude the people of god , from their right and interest therein ; for if they had a stroke in the choice of an apostle ; how much more should they have the like , in the choice of ordinarie officers ? and if the apostles themselves being present , would not abridge the people of this libertie , much lesse may others do it ; doubtlesse they that engrosse the authoritie of chusing ministers into their own hands , excluding the people , they arrogate more unto themselves then the apostles ever did . so likewise in act. . when deacons were to be appointed , the apostles do not take all the businesse into their own hands , as if election of such officers appertained onely to themselves , and not at all unto the people : but they call the whole multitude unto them , ver. . and bid them chuse out seven men , fitly qualified for the office , ver. . and accordingly the saying pleased the whole multitude ; and they chose seven that are there named , ver. . and having so done , they set them before the apostles that they might ordain them by laying their hands on them , ver. . and in act. . . it is said that the apostles ordained elders , by election , or lifting up of hands , ( for so doth {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifie ) in every church . obj. the word signifieth nothing else , but laying on of hands , which was the act of the apostles alone , and not of the people . ans. the word is never used for laying on of hands in all the scripture , but the word used for that is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , betwixt which and this word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , there is as much difference as betweene holding up and laying down . if luke the writer of the acts had intended the laying on of hands , it had been easie for him to have used the other word , which is proper to expresse such an action , and frequently used by himself in that sence in this book . act. . . and . . and . . object . but be it laying on , or lifting up , that was not the act of the people , but of the apostle alone . answ. of the apostles it is confessed : for who doubts , but as they moderated the whole action , and laid on their hands in ordination ; so they might also concurre in the election , by lifting up their hands ? but it will not follow , that therefore that lifting up of hands was performed by the apostles onely ; for elsewhere the word is used to expresse the act of the whole church , and is translated ( was chosen , cor. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; was chosen of the churches : even as one place mentioneth a gift that was in timothy , by the laying on of pauls hands , tim. . . which must not be understood of pauls hands alone , because another scripture mentioneth the hands of the presbytery , . tim. . . by all which it appeareth , that in the apostles times , the people had one hand in the election of their officers . and if so , then it ought to be so also in these dayes : for the practice of the apostles recorded in the acts is presidentiall for all churches in all ages , in those things that were not of particular reason and respect ; which for the peoples chusing their ministers , cannot be said . besides , when the apostles were alive , the churches were in the greatest purity , and therefore we may more safely tread in their steps . and further , if this practice had not been according to the mind of christ , we may be sure the apostles would not have countenanced it , nor have directed the churches to have used it , but would have left and prescribed some other course to be observed in the choyce of ministers , which we see they have not done . secondly , if ministers must not be chosen by the church , then either they must be called of god immediatly , or ministers without any calling at all , or be chosen and appointed by some other men : but not the first , because such immediate calling is now ceased ( as being peculiar to the extraordinary function of apostles , prophets , &c. ) which in these times are not to be expected ; nor the second , because that is expresly against the scripture , which saith , no man must take this honour to himselfe , but he that is called of god , as was aaron , heb. . . and therefore they that ran when god sent them not , are many times , and very sharply reproved in the prophets , jer. . . nor the third : for . god hath not given any such authority to other men that are not of the church , to appoint officers to the church : nor . may some of the church arrogate this power onely to themselves , excluding the rest ; because that which concerneth all ( as this matter doth ) ought to have approbation of all , unlesse it might appeare , that god had committed the thing only to some , which for the chusing of officers cannot be said . . it is sutable to right reason , that it should be thus : for . by this means the liberty of the church is not infringed by thrusting officers uppon them without their consent , and whom they never chose . also . this is a strong engagement to the people , to yeeld due reverence , subjection and obedience to their ministers , because they are the men whom themselves have chosen ; whereas one thrust upon them against their wills , is not like to be much beloved , but rather contemned and hated ; and how then shall they profit by his doctrine ? finally , the people have a right originally to chuse their civil officers , as is also practised at this day in many places : and when the lord brings a sword upon a land , the scripture saith expresly , that the people of the land may take a man of their coasts , and set him for their watchman , ezek. . . and if so , then they may well have liberty to chuse such as must be watchmen for their souls : for it is much more unreasonable , that there should be thrust upon them such watchmen and officers , upon whom the salvation or damnation of their souls doth depend , then such as upon whom dependeth no more but their wealth , or commodity of this life . and this shall suffice for answer to your fourth and last argument . there are in your book two other general heads which are somthing insisted on , the one about clearing such objections as are not reducible to your former arguments ; the other of appealing to the judgement of the adverse party : in both which , thopugh we might observe sundry things which were worth your second review , yet in as much as our intentions were chiefly to consider the weight of your arguments , but not to undertake the defence of every objection which you propose ; and considering withall , that those considerations from the order , unity , peace , and strength of government with the rest , are not intended by you ( as we suppose ) as convincing , but onely as probable grounds against that way which you deale against ; therfore for these and some other reasons , having spoken to that which we conceive to be the main substance of your book , we will here for this time surcease , praying the father of mercies for christ jesus his sake , to poure out his rich blessings of truth & peace upon our deare native countrey , and to guide all his servants there & here by a spirit of truth , into all truth . and to give us such hearts and grace , that we may follow the truth in love , till antichristianisme be utterly rooted out , and sion be restored , ( especially in england ) to her former beiuty , and new jerusalem come down from heaven , as a bride adorned for her husband , the lord jesus christ . to whom be all glory and praise for ever and ever . amen . finis . tears of repentance: or, a further narrative of the progress of the gospel amongst the indians in new-england: setting forth, not only their present state and condition, but sundry confessions of sin by diverse of the said indians, wrought upon by the saving power of the gospel; together with the manifestation of their faith and hope in jesus christ, and the work of grace upon their hearts. related by mr. eliot and mr. mayhew, two faithful laborers in that work of the lord. published by the corporation for propagating the gospel there, for the satisfaction and comfort of such as wish well thereunto. eliot, john, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing e thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) tears of repentance: or, a further narrative of the progress of the gospel amongst the indians in new-england: setting forth, not only their present state and condition, but sundry confessions of sin by diverse of the said indians, wrought upon by the saving power of the gospel; together with the manifestation of their faith and hope in jesus christ, and the work of grace upon their hearts. related by mr. eliot and mr. mayhew, two faithful laborers in that work of the lord. published by the corporation for propagating the gospel there, for the satisfaction and comfort of such as wish well thereunto. eliot, john, - . mayhew, thomas. mather, richard, - . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by peter cole in leaden-hall, and are to sold [sic] at his shop, at the sign of the printing-press in cornhil, near the royal exchange., london : . includes a preface signed: rich. mather. the seventh of a series of pamphlets, commonly known as the "eliot tracts," published in london from to . signatures a and l are cancellans. original a began "to his excellency the lord general cromwel·'; original k has advertisement after "finis." on bottom half of page. annotation on thomason copy: "may. .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng indians of north america -- massachusetts -- early works to . missions -- america -- early works to . massachusetts -- history -- colonial period, ca. - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no tears of repentance: or, a further narrative of the progress of the gospel amongst the indians in new-england:: setting forth, not only the eliot, john b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john pas sampled and proofread - john pas text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion tears of repentance : or , a further narrative of the progress of the gospel amongst the indians in new-england : setting forth , not only their present state and condition , but sundry confessions of sin by diverse of the said indians , wrought upon by the saving power of the gospel ; together with the manifestation of their faith and hope in jesus christ , and the work of grace upon their hearts . related by mr. eliot and mr. mayhew , two faithful laborers in that work of the lord . published by the corporation for propagating the gospel there , for the satisfaction and comfort of such as wish well thereunto . isay , . . a bruised reed shall be not break , and the smoaking flax , shall be not quench . london : printed by peter cole in leaden-hall , and are to sold at his shop , at the sign of the printing-press in cornhil , near the royal exchange . . to his excellency the lord general cromwel . what the jews once said of their centurion , he loved our nation , and built us a synagogue , the same may we affirm upon a more noble accompt of your lordship , and of those faithful centurions and soldiers under your conduct ; by how much the adventure of your lives in the cause of god , for the good of your country , is a more infallible demonstration of your love to it : forasmuch as the king of saints , is also king of nations , and when he shall be the desire of all nations , will prove their safest interest . vpon consideration whereof , it was but equal that mr. eliot a faithful laborer of christ in spreading the everlasting gospel to the poor indians , should prefix your lordships name to his relation of the progress of divine grace amongst them : and with his judgment , we of the corporation , who are subordinately intrusted , do so far concur , especially moved thereunto by that liberal and exemplary contribution to this glorious work lately promoted by your lordship , and your officers with the army , that we thought not fit either to sever that narrative , and this of mr. mayhew's , or to send them abroad under any other name to the publick view . coopers-hall , london , march , . . signed in the name , and by the appointment of the said corporation , by william steel , president . to the much honored corporation in london , chosen to place of publick trust for the promoting of the work of the lord among the indians in new-england . worthy sirs , it hath not been from any disrespect to your selves , that i have not formerly directed to your presence , and presented into your hand , what have already been let go , which made relation of the work of god among the indians in this island ( commonly called martins vineyard ) this year there was an opportunity not to be refused , of certifying the right worshipful john endicot esquire , governor of the massachussets in new-england of what i had to communicate concerning the indians , from whose hand also you will receive it ; but yet i may not for several causes , neglect the writing to your selves the same things , with more particulars since adjoyned , in the conclusion to accompany the former unto your pious and prudent consideration , to which they are committed to be ( as i have received them from god ) the tokens of more grace in store to be bestowed on indian souls . highly esteemed in the lord jesus , when the lord first brought me to these poor indians on the vinyard , they were mighty zealous and earnest in the worship of false gods , and devils ; their false gods were many , both of things in heaven , earth , and sea : and there they had their men-gods , women-gods , and children-gods , their companies , and fellowships of gods , or divine powers , guiding things amongst men , besides innumerable more feigned gods belonging to many creatures , to their corn , and every colour of it : the devil also with his angels had his kingdom among them , in them ; account him they did , the terror of the living , the god of the dead , under whose cruel power and into whose deformed likeness they conceived themselves to be translated when they died ; for the same word they have for devil , they use also for a dead man , in their language : by him they were often hurt in their bodies , distracted in their minds , wherefore they had many meetings with their pawwaws ( who usually had a hand in their hurt ) to pacifie the devil by their sacrifice , and get deliverance from their evil ; i have sometimes marvelled to see the vehemency of their spirits , which they acted with no less bodily violence therein . the pawwaws counted their imps their preservers , had them treasured up in their bodies , which they brought forth to hurt their enemies , and heal their friends ; who when they had done some notable cure , would shew the imp in the palm of his hand to the indians , who with much amazement looking on it , deified them , then at all times seeking to them for cure in all sicknesses , and counsel in all cases : this diabolical way they were in , giving heed to a multitude of heathen traditions of their gods , and many other things , under the observation whereof , they with much slavery were held , and abounding with sins , having only an obscure notion of a good greater than all , which they call mannit , but they knew not what he was , and therefore had no way to worship him . what an entrance i had at first amongst these miserable heathen , how called thereunto , and what success god blessed us with , hath been in some measure already published , which will i hope through the dew of gods blessing from heaven , have such a gracious increase , that the blossoming and budding time shal at least be acknowledged , and by many more god blessed for it , in the growth of the fruit to more maturity ; since it hath pleased god to send his word to these poor captivated men ( bondslaves to sin and satan ) he hath through mercy brought two hundred eighty three indians ( not counting yong children in the number ) to renounce their false gods , devils , and pawwaws , and publickly in set meetings , before many witnesses , have they disclaimed the divinity of their formerly adored multitude , defied their tyrannical destroyer the devil , and utterly refused the help of the pawwaws in any case ; neither have they at any time , either by threatnings or flatteries been drawn thereto , although their lives have been in hazard ; yea , eight of their pawwaws have forsaken their devillish craft , and profitable trade as they accounted it , for to embrace the word and way of god . the indians which do pray to god , were not compelled thereto by power , neither also could they be allured by gifts , who received nothing for about seven years time , much less that which counterpoyse their troubles , and exceed to the drawing of them from the beloved waies of their own worships : surely it were great uncharitableness , and derogatory from the glory of god , to think that none of these are truly changed , and that god himself by his word and spirit , hath not in mercy prevailed in their hearts against these evils ; nay , may we not hope and be perswaded by this , and some other appearances of god amongst them , that some of them are truly turned to god from idols , to serve the living and true god ? serve him , through mercy they do in some hopeful reformations , walking inoffensively and diligently in their way , which i hope will more plainly appear when they are in a way more hopeful ( by the blessing of god to their further well-being ) which i hope will be in the best time . i cannot but take notice of this good providence of god by the way , that he hath mercifully preserved all the indians which call upon his name ( from the begining of the work unto this day ) from all extraordinary evil , whereby the devil and witches use to torment the bodies and minds of men , not one of them or their children ( as i know ) or have heard have been touched by them in this kind ( only a pawwaw or two , have not been delivered from his imps presently after his renouncing of them , but for some time have had the sence of them in his body with much pain : ) the mischief that the pawwaws and devils usually do to the common indian this way , is both by outward and bodily hurt , or inward pain , torture , and distraction of mind , both which i have seen my self : to accomplish the first , the devil doth abuse the real body of a serpent , which comes directly towards the man in the house or in the field , looming or having a shadow about him like a man , and do shoot a bone ( as they say ) into the indians body , which sometimes killeth him . an instance whereof i can give , whereby it may the more plainly appear , that it is a great mercy to be delivered therefrom ; and it is of a youth , who living with his parents upon a neck of land , they did not pray unto jehovah , yet their neighbors who lived there with them , did ; this youth was hurt after the same manner , and then presently his parents pulled down the house they lived in , and fled to an island near by , where i saw the indian thus hurt in his thigh , he was grievously tormented , and his kindred about him mourning , not knowing where to find any comfort , or help , for cure could not be had from their gods or pawwaws : i then took the opportunity to reason with them about their way , with the best wisdom god gave me , but all in vain , for they would not hear to seek the true god , notwithstanding he had shewn his displeasure so apparantly against them for their former refusing of him , but they still followed on their wonted serpentine machinations : the pawwaws , and their devillish train , with their horrible outcries , hollow bleatings , painful wrestlings , and smiting their own bodies , sought deliverance , but all in vain , for he died miserably . hereby , and by several other things , i perceive that they are not ( in a manner ) indifferent , whether they serve their own gods or not , or change them ( as some think ) for they are naturally like the heathens of chittim and kedar , which would not change their gods , which yet are no gods ; when god blames his people for changing their glory for that which doth not profit ; i hope therefore that it is something of grace , that many chuse to worship the true god . but touching the former vexing mischiefs , a sachem , and no good friend to the work , could not but acknowledg the blessing of god among the praying indians ; when i came over ( said he ) at the further end of the island , there was a storm ( mentioning the aforesaid evils , with some more ) but when i came to this end i found a calm , the praying indians were all well , they arose in the morning , prayed to god , and went about their business , and they are not hurt nor troubled like the other indians : and the pawwaws themselves , some of them do say , that they cannot make their power seize on any of them : questionless they have tried their skill , and satan hath not been wanting to assist them , who is so unwilling to fall down from his rule , and to be driven from his old possessions . a pawwaw told me , who was of no small note among the heathen formerly , and also with the best , now he hath forsaken his pawwawing , that after he had been brought by the word of god to hate the devil , and to renounce his imps ( which he did publickly ) that yet his imps remained still in him for some months tormenting of his flesh , and troubling of his mind , that he could never be at rest , either sleeping or waking : at length one time when i went down to keep the farthest lecture about seven miles off , he asked me some questions , whereof this was one , viz. that if a pawwaw had his imps gone from him , what he should have instead of them to preserve him ? whereunto it was answered , that if he did beleeve in christ jesus , he should have the spirit of christ dwelling in him , which is a good and a strong spirit , and will keep him so safe , that all the devils in hell , and pawwaws on earth , should not be able to do him any hurt ; and that if he did set himself against his imps , by the strength of god they should all flee away like muskeetoes : he told me , that he did much desire the lord , it might be so with him . he further said , that ever since that very time god hath in mercy delivered him from them , he is not troubled with any pain ( as formerly ) in his bed , nor dreadful visions of the night , but through the blessing of god , he doth lie down in ease , sleeps quietly , wakes in peace , and walks in safety , for which he is very glad , and praises god . this last spring , the indians of their own accord made a motion to me they might have some way ordered amongst them , as a means whereby they might walk in good subjection to the law of god , wherunto they desired to enter into covenant ; they told me that they were very desirous to have their sins suppressed which god did forbid , and the duties performed , which he hath commanded in his word ; and thereunto they desired me to inform them , what punishment the lord did appoint to be inflicted on those which did break any part of his law , for they were very willing to submit themselves to what the will of the lord is in this kind . i was not willing on the sudden to draw forth in writing an answer to their desire , but rather chose to take a longer time of consideration in a work of so great concernment , and refer them to the word of god , shewing them many places for their information , most whereof they had heard of formerly : they also further desired , that they might have some men chosen amongst them with my father and my self , to see that the indians did walk orderly , and that such might be incouraged , but that those which did not , might be dealt with acording to the word of the lord ; i could not but approve and incourage the motion , seeing they spake not as those in psal. . . let us break their bands asunder and cast away their cords from us , but sought totall subjection and strict obedience to god : yet i told them that it was a matter of great weight , shewing them many things which i thought necessary for them to know , but needless now to relate . a day of fasting and prayer to repent of our sins , and seek the gracious help of our god for christ jesus sake , we appointed ; and another shortly after to finish the work in : some of the indians spake somthing for their benefit ; and about ten , or twelve of them prayed , not with any set form like children , but like men indued with a good measure of the knowledg of god , their own wants , and the wants of others , with much affection , and many spiritual petitions , savoring of a heavenly mind ; and so are they streitned in respect of help from man , that it appears the more plainly to be the dictates of gods spirit . a platform of the covenant in answer to their desires , i drew forth the same morning in the indian language , which i have here sent in english . wee the distressed indians of the vineyard ( or nope , the indian name of the island ) that beyond all memory have been without the true god , without a teacher , and without a law , the very servants of sin and satan , and without peace , for god did justly vex us for our sins ; having lately through his mercy heard of the name of the true god , the name of his son christ jesus , with the holy ghost , the comforter , three persons , but one most glorious god , whose name is jehovah : we do praise his glorious greatness , and in the sorrow of our hearts , and shame of our faces , we do acknowledg and renounce our great and many sins , that we and our fathers have lived in , do run unto him for mercy , and pardon for christ jesus sake ; and we do this day through the blessing of god upon us , and trusting to his gracious help , give up our selves in this covenant , wee , our wives , and children , to serve jehovah : and we do this day chuse jehovah to be our god in christ jesus , our teacher , our law-giver in his word , our king , our judg , our ruler by his magistrates and ministers ; to fear god himself , and to trust in him alone for salvation , both of soul and body , in this present life , and the everlasting life to come , through his mercy in christ jesus our savior , and redeemer , and by the might of his holy spirit ; to whom with the father and son , be all glory everlasting . amen . after i had often read this covenant and expounded it unto them , they all with free consent willingly and thankfully joyned therein , and desired jehovah his blessing for jesus christ his sake , the lord be gracious to our beginnings . within two or three weeks there came an indian to me in business , and by the way he told me , that some indians had lately kept a day of repentance to humble themselves before god in prayer , and that the word of god which one of them spake unto , for their instruction , was psal. . . he ruleth by his power for ever , his eyes behold the nations , let not the rebellious exalt themselves . i asked him what their end was in keeping such a day ? he told me those six things : first , they desired , that god would slay the rebellion of their hearts . secondly , that they might love god , and one another . thirdly , that they might withstand the evil words and temptations of wicked men , and not to be drawn back from god . fourthly , that they might be obedient to the good words and commands of their rulers . fiftly , that they might have their sins done away by the redemption of jesus christ . and lastly , that they might walk in christs way . now for the state of things with us , we are by the help of god about to begin a town that they may cohabit and carry on things in a civil and religious way the better ; the praying indians are constant attenders to the word of the lord , and some of them ( i hope ) conscionable seekers after the knowledg of god , and themselves , and not without obtaining ( by the grace of god ) some saving benefit to their own souls , which will by his own blessing , in the best time , more plainly appear . about . indian children are now at school , which began the eleventh day of the eleventh month . . they are apt to learn , and more and more are now sending in unto them . the barbarous indians , both men and women , do often come on the lecture dayes , and complaining of their ignorance , disliking their sinful liberty , and refusing the helps , and hopes of their own power , seek subjection to jehovah , to be taught , governed , and saved by him , for jesus christs sake . the name of the lord alone be praised for what is begun ; what is further needfull , i earnestly desire may be fervently prayed for , and expected by faith , to be effected , and finished by the gracious hand of god , who have laid the foundation , and will not leave his own works unperfect , which is the comfort of an unworthy laborer in the lords vinyard , and an earnest desirer to be remembred at the throne of grace . having a little more liberty , i shall certifie you of somthing more , which i have taken notice of amongst the poor indians . i observed that the indians when they chose their rulers , made choyce of such as were best approved for their godliness , and most likely to suppress sin , and encourage holiness , and since they have been forward upon all occasions , to shew their earnest desire thereof . there was an indian that was well approved for his reformation , that was suspected to have told a plain lye for his gain ; the business was brought to the publick meeting , and there it was notably sifted with zeal and good affection ; but at length the indian defending himself with great disdain , and hatred of such an evil , proved himself clear , and praised god for it . the same indian was a little before , very sick , and he told me that when he thought he should die , he did so love god , that he was not unwilling to die , and leave his wife , and children , or any thing else , but that he was only desirous to live for this cause , that he might be more taught by the word of god , and be helpful to teach the indians the way of god . i have also observed how god is pleased to uphold some of these poor indians against opposition . i was once down towards the further end of the island , and lodged at an indians house , who was accounted a great man among the islanders , being the friend of a great sachem on the mayn ; this sachem is a great enemy to our reformation on the island : at this mans house when i had sate a while , his son being about thirty years old , earnestly desired me in his language , to relate unto him some of the ancient stories of god ; i then spent a great part of the night ( in such discourse as i thought fittest for them ) as i usually do when i lodg in their houses , what he then heard ( as he expressed ) did much affect him : and shortly after he came and desired to joyn with the praying indians to serve jehovah , but it was to the great discontentment of the sachems on the mayn , and those indians about him : news was often brought to him that his life was laid in wait for , by those that would surely take it from him , they desired him therfore with speed to turn back again ; the man came to me once or twice , and i perceived that he was troubled , he asked my counsel about removing his habitation , yet told me , that if they should stand with a sharp weapon against his breast , and tell him that they would kill him presently , if he did not turn to them , but if he would , they would love him , yet he had rather lose his life than keep it on such terms ; for ( said he ) when i look back on my life as it was before i did pray to god , i see it to be wholly naught , and do wholly dislike it , and hate those naughty waies ; but when i look on that way which god doth teach me in his word , i see it to be wholly good ; and do wholly love it . blessed be god that he is not overcome by these temptations . the next thing i judg also worthy to be observed , my father and i were lately talking with an indian , who had not long before almost lost his life by a wound his enemies gave him in a secret hidden way , the mark whereof , he had upon him , and will carry it to his grave : this man understanding of a secret plot that was to take away his enemies life , told my father and i , that he did freely forgive him for the sake of god , and did tell this plot to us that the mans life might be preserved : this is a singular thing , and who among the heathen will do so ? i observe also that the indians themselves do indeavor to propagate the knowledg of god , to the glory of god and the good of others : i heard an indian ( after i had some discourse with the indians in the night ) ask the sachem , and many others together , how they did like that counsel they heard from the word of god : they answered , very wel ; then said he , why do you not take it ? why do you not do according to it ? he further added , i can tell you why it is , because you do not see your sins , and because you do love your sins ; for as long as it was so with me , i did not care for the way of god ; but when god did shew me my sins , and made me hate them , then i was glad to take gods counsel : this i remember he spake , with some other things , with such gravity and truth , that the sachem and all the company was not able to gain-say . myoxeo also lately met with an indian , which came from the mayn who was of some note among them ; i heard that he told them of the great things of god , and of christ jesus , the sinfulness and folly of the indians , the pardon of sin by christ , and of a good life ; and so were they both affected , that they continued this discourse two half nights , and a day , until their strength was spent : he told him in particular , how a beleever did live above the world , that he did keep worldly things alwaies at his feet ( as he shewed him by a sign ) that when they were deminished , or increased , it was neither the cause of his sorrow , or joy , that he should stoop to regard them , but he stood upright with his heart heavenward , and his whol desire was after god , and his joy in him . now much honored in the lord , and all that love christ jesus in truth , let me prevail with you that we may be presented by you at the throne of grace in his worthiness to obtain those blessings , that concerns his kingdom and glory ; our comfort and salvation : and you are , and shall also be , ever humbly so prayed for , by him , who is from the vinyard the . of october , . yours obliged , and ever to be commanded in the work of the lord jesus thomas mayhew . to his excellency , the lord general cromwel ; grace , mercy , and peace be multiplied . right honorable , envy it self cannot deny that the lord hath raised and improved you in an eminent manner to overthrow antichrist , and to accomplish , in part , the prophesies and promises of the churches deliverance from that bondage : in all which service , the lord hath not only kept your honor unsteined , but also caused the lustre of those precious graces of humility , faith , love of truth , and love to the saints , &c. with which , through his free grace , he hath enriched you , to shine forth abundantly beyond all exception of any that are , or have been adversaries to your proceedings . now as the design of christ in these daies is double , namely , first , to overthrow antichrist by the wars of the lamb ; and secondly , to raise up his own kingdom in the room of all earthly powers which he doth cast down , and to bring all the world subject to be ruled in all things by the word of his mouth . and as the lord hath raised and improved you , to accomplish ( so far as the work hath proceeded ) the first part of his design , so i trust that the lord will yet further improve you , to set upon the accomplishment of the second part of the design of christ ; not only by indeavoring to put government into the hands of saints , which the lord hath made you eminently careful to do , but also by promoting scripture government and laws , that so the word of christ might rule all . in which great services unto the name of christ , i doubt not , but it will be some comfort to your heart to see the kingdom of christ rising up in these western parts of the world ; and some confirmation it will be , that the lords time is come to advance and spread his blessed kingdom , which shall ( in his season ) fill all the earth : and some incouragement to your heart , to prosecute that part of the design of christ , namely , that christ might reign . such considerations , together with the favorable respect you have alwaies shewed to poor new-england , hath imboldned me to present unto your hand , these first confessions of that grace which the lord hath bestowed upon these poor natives , and to publish them under the protection of your name , begging earnestly the continuance of your prayers for the further proceeding of this gracious work : and so committing your honor to the lord , and to the word of his grace , and all your weighty affairs to his heavenly direction , i rest your honors to serve you , in the service of christ john eliot . to the reader . christian reader , i know thy soul longeth to hear tydings of gods grace powred out upon these goings down of the sun , because the spirit of god by the word of prophesie , useth to raise up and draw forth such actings of faith , as accord with the accomplishment of those prophesies , when the time of their accomplishment is come . when israel was to return from babylon , the spirit by the word of prophesie , raised up such actings of faith , as were put forth in the exercise of all gifts necessary for the accomplishment thereof . daniel prayeth . zerubbabel hath a spirit of ruling , the peoples affections are loose from their dwellings , and have a spirit of traveling . ezra , nehemiah , and all the rest of the worthies of the lord , are raised at that time to accomplish what is prophesied . in these times the prophesies of antichrist his down fall are accomplishing . and do we not see that the spirit of the lord , by the word of prophesie , hath raised up men , instruments in the lord hand , to accomplish what is written herein . and the spirit of prayer , and expectation of faith is raised generally in all saints , by the same word of prophesie . in like manner the lord having said , that the gospel shall spread over all the earth , even to all the ends of the earth ; and from the riseing to the setting sun ; all nations shal become the nations , and kingdoms of the lord and of his christ . such words of prophesie hath the spirit used to stir up the servants of the lord to make out after the accomplishment thereof : and hath stirred up a mighty spirit of prayer , and expectation of faith for the conversion both of the jewes , ( yea all israel ) and of the gentiles also , over all the world . for this cause i know every beleeving heart , awakened by such scriptures , longeth to hear of the conversion of our poor indians , whereby such prophesies are in part begun to be accomplished . yea , the design of christ being to erect his own kingdom , in the room of all those dominions , which he doth , and is about to overturn : you shall see a spirit by such words of prophesie powred forth upon the saints ( into whose hands christ will commit the manageing of his kingdom on earth ) that shall carry them forth to advance christ to rule over men in all affairs , by the word of his mouth , and make him their only law-giver , and supream judge , and king . it is a day of small things with us : and that is gods season to make the single beauty of his humbling grace , to shine in them , that are the veriest ruines of mankind that are known on earth ; as mr. hooker was wont to describe the forlorn condition of these poor indians . i see evident demonstrations that gods spirit by his word hath taught them , because their expressions , both in prayer , and in the confessions which i have now published , are far more , and more full , and spiritual , and various , then ever i was able to express unto them ; in that poor broken manner of teaching which i have used among them . thēir turning doctrins into their own experience , which you may observe in their confessions , doth also demonstrate the teachings of gods spirit , whose first special work is application . their different gifts likewise , is a thing observable in their confessions , wherein it is not to be expected that they should be all eminent , it is not so in any society of men ; but in that there be some among them that are more eminent , it is a sign of gods favor , who is raising up among themselves , such as shall be his instruments to conveigh a blessing unto the rest . their frequent phrase of praying to god , is not to be understood of that ordinance and duty of prayer only , but of all religion , and comprehendeth the same meaning , with them , as the word [ religion ] doth with us : and it is observable , because it seemeth to me , that the lord will make them a praying people : and indeed , there is a great spirit of prayer powred out upon them , to my wonderment ; and you may easily apprehend , that they who are assisted to express such confessions before men , are not without a good measure of inlargement of spirit before the lord . the points of doctrine that are here and there dropped in their confessions , may suffice at present for a little taste to the godly discerning saints , that they are in some measure instructed in the chief points of salvation , though there be no doctrinal confession on purpose set down to declare what they have learned , and do beleeve . if any should conceive that that word which they so often use [ i thought , or i think ] should need explication , as a godly brother did intimate to me on the fast day , let this suffice , that it is to be construed by the present matter : for sometimes it is a thought of faith ; sometime of fear ; sometime of vnbelief ; sometime of carnal reason ; and sometime of ignorance . lastly , it is plainly to be observed , that one end of gods sending so many saints to new-england , was the conversion of these indians . for the godly counsels , and examples they have had in all our christian families , have been of great use , both to prepare them for the gospel , and also to further the lords work in them , as you may evidently discern in most of their confessions . beloved reader , i have no more to say as necessary to prepare for the following matter , only to beg , yea earnestly to beg the continuance of all your prayers ; by the power whereof ( through the grace and intercession of christ ) i beleeve this wheele of conversion of these indians , is turned : and my heart hath been alwayes thereby encouraged , to follow on to do that poor little i can , to help forward this blessed work of spreading and exalting the kingdom of our dear savior jesus christ , under the direction and protection of whose word and grace , by faith committing you ; i rest , your unworthy brother , in our dear savior , john eliot . to the christian reader . the amplitude , and large extent of the kingdom of jesus christ upon earth , when the heathen shall be his inheritance , and the uttermost parts of the earth his possession ; and when all kings shall fall down unto him , and all nations do him service , all contrary kingdoms and powers being broken in pieces and destroyed , is a thing plainly and plentifully foretold and promised in the holy scriptures ; psal. . . and . . and . . and . . dan. . . , . and . , . zech. . . and although as yet our eyes have never seen it so , nor our fathers afore us , many nations and people having hitherto been overspread , and overwhelmed in pagan blindness and ignorance , having scarce ever heard of christ , or of his name ; and many others that in some sort have heard of him , having no more grace but to make and maintain opposition against him , and against his kingdom , some more professedly , and others more covertly and under fairer pretence , as in the great dominions of the turk , and of the pope , is apparent ; yet the time is coming , when things shall not thus continue , but be greatly changed and altered , because the lord hath spoken this word , and it cannot be that his word should not take effect : and if the lord have spoken it , his people have good ground and reason to beleeve it , and to say as the holy apostle in another case , i beleeve god that it shall be even as it was told me , act. . . yea , to beleeve it and wait for it , as for that which in gods appointed and due time shall surely come to pass , and not fail , as hab. . . and not only so , but heartily to desire it , and fervently to pray for it , as a thing wherein the glory of god , and of jesus christ is not a little concerned and interessed ; for if the multitude of people be the kings honor , prov. . . it must needs be the honor of christ jesus the king of sion , when multitudes of people do submit unto him as to their king ; and therfore it should be earnestly craved of god by all his saints in their prayers , that so it may be , according as the sanctifying of gods name , and the coming of his kingdom are the two first petitions in that rule and pattern of prayer commanded , and taught by our savior to his disciples , matth. . , . and no man needs to doubt but that those things which are matter for faith and prayer to be exercised about their accomplishment , are matters of thanksgiving when once they come to pass . which being so , the godly christian , who shall read or hear this ensuing relation concerning the workings of gods grace towards these indians in new-england , and the confessions of sundry amongst them , will , i doubt not , see abundant cause of thanksgiving to the lord therein . for hereby it will appear , that the kingdom of the lord jesus which every faithful soul , doth so much desire to see enlarged , is now beginning to be set up where it never was before , even amongst a poor people , forlorn kind of creatures in times past , who have been without christ , and without god in the world , they and their fathers , for i know not how many generations ; yea , so far from knowing and acknowledging god in christ , that they have been little better than the beasts that perish . but now they that were far off , the lord is at work to make them neer unto himself by the blood of jesus , as eph. . . that they which in time past were not a people , might ere long become the people of god ; and they be called beloved , which were not beloved ; and in the place where it was said unto them , ye are not my people ▪ that there ere long , they might be called , the children of the living god , as pet. . . rom. . , . which is the lords doing , and it ought to be marvelous in our eyes . and the truth is , there are many marvels in it ; marvelous free-grace , and riches thereof , to look upon a people so wretched and unworthy ; yea , it were marvelous grace so much as once to offer the salvation of god in christ to any such as they are , being not only the poor and maimed , halt and blind , but also , as it is in luk , . . ranging and roving in the high-waies , and hedges ; and yet behold , even these are not only invited , but their hearts inclined to come in . mavelous wisdom and power is in it also , that of matter so rugged , and unlikely the lord should ever frame and fashion any gracious and holy building to himself , which i hope he is now a doing . and to say no more , his mervelous soveraignty and liberty is therein to be observed also , who till now of late hath seen meet never to look after this people , but hath suffered them all this while to walk in their own waies , waies of sin , and waies of death : yea , and though there hath been plantations of the english in the country now . years and more , yea , some a matter of . years , or thereabout , yet of all this time ( except some little workings in a few ) no considerable work of grace hath appeared amongst the indians till now of late ; so true is that saying , the times and seasons , the father hath put them in his own power , act. . . if any shall say , oh but , we are doubtful whether any sound and saving work be yet wrought in them or no : such an one i would wish seriously to weigh and consider the ensuing confessions , and then perhaps he will be better satisfied touching this point ; for there he shall find many expressions savoring of their clear sight and sence of sin , and that not only of gross and external sins , but also of such as are more inward in the heart and soul : also he shall find expressions tending to shew their expecting all righteousness and salvation by christ alone . now considering how the work of the spirit of god is said by christ himself to consist in great part in convincing of sin , and of righteousness ; of sin in mens selves , and of righteousness in christ , joh. . . and considering also , how the least beginnings of grace are accepted of him that would not break the bruised reed , nor quench the smoaking flax , matth. . . and lastly , considering how it were not reasonable to expect such ripeness in these people , as might be expected and found in others , who have had more time and means , and better help and breeding than these have had : if these things i say be considered , it may be an inducement to hope the best in charity concerning the work of grace in their souls , as charity hopeth all things , beleeveth all things , cor. . but thus much at the least i conceive is cleer , and cannot be denied that since the word of god hath been taught and preached among them , the spirit of the lord hath been working thereby in the hearts of many of them such illumination , such conviction , &c. as may justly be looked at ( if not as a full and through conversion , yet ) as an hopeful beginning and preparation thereto , if the lord be pleased to go on with what he hath begun , as i hope he will . and if there were no more but only an hopeful beginning , and preparative to conversion , yet even this were matter of much comfort to the saints , and of thanksgiving to the lord ; as it was in israel at the building of the temple , when no more was yet done , but only the foundation laid , ezr. . , . yet even then they sung for joy , giving praise and thanksgiving to the lord : how much more should it be so , if the work of regeneration be already truly wrought in any of them , as i hope it is in sundry ; in such case , how ever it be with men on earth , sure there is joy in heaven amongst the angels of god , when there is so much as one sinner that is truly brought home to god by repentance , luke . . . but how shall we know that the confessions here related , being spoken in their tongue , were indeed uttered by them in such words , as have the same signification and meaning with these that are here expressed , for we have only the testimony of one man to assure us of it ? it is true , we have only the testimony of one man for it ; but yet it is such an one , as is unwillingly alone in this matter , having seriously endeavored to have had divers other interpreters present at natick that day , but could not obtain what he did desire and endeavor herein ; a man whose pious and painful labors amongst this people , have rendred him approved and highly honored in the eyes of his brethren about him , for indefatigable diligence , and earnest love to the lord jesus , and their poor souls ; a man whose integrity and faithfulness is so well known in these parts , as giveth sufficient satisfaction to beleev that he would not wittingly utter a falshood in any matter whatever , and much less so many falshoods , & that in such a publick manner , in the view of god & the world , as he must needs have done if he have coyned these confessions of his own head , and have not to his best understanding truly related them in our tongue , according as they were uttered by them in theirs . if any shall then ask , if there be such a work of god amongst them , why were they not combined and united into church-estate , when there was that great assembly at natick , on the thirteenth of octob. last ? such an one may do well to consider , that the material temple was many yeers in building , even in the daies of solomon , who wanted no helps and furtherances thereunto , but was abundantly furnished therewith , and longer in re-edifying after the captivity ; and therefore no marvel if the building of a spiritual temple , an holy church to christ , and a church out of such rubbish as amongst indians , be not begun and ended on a sudden ; it is rather to be wondered at , that in so short a time , the thing is in so much forwardness as it is . besides , it is a greater matter to have indians accepted and owned as a church amongst themselves , and so to be invested with all church-power as a church , when yet they are not furnished with any to be an able pastor and elder over them , by whom they might be directed and guided in all the affairs of the church , and administrations of the house of god : this i conceive is a far greater matter than the admitting of them as members into any church or churches of the english already so furnished ; which latter ( for ought i know ) might speedily be done , and with much satisfaction , if it were suitable in regard of their different language , and the remoteness of their habitations , whereas to the former there seems to be a great necessity , or expediency at the least , that they should first be provided of some to be afterward set over them in the lord . even amongst the english , when any company amongst us have united themselves into church-estate , it hath been usual that they have had one or other amongst them upon whom their eyes have been set , as intending them to be pastors or teachers to them ; afterward , when once they should be combined as a church , and where it hath so been , they have found the comfort and benefit of it ; whereas those few that have proceeded otherwise , have found trouble and inconveniency therein . and if it be so amongst the english , who usually have better abilities , how much more amongst the indians , whose knowledg and parts must needs be far less ? not to insist upon the rehearsal of those two reasons mentioned by the reverend author of this relation , viz. the shortness of the time to furnish the work that day , and the want of interpreters , of whom there was not any present himself . concerning which reasons , i can freely ad my testimony , that those two were the principal , if not the only reasons which that day were insisted on , and publickly rendred for deferring the inchurching of them to another time . it may be some have thought , and i hear some have spoken little less , that this whol business of the indians , of which there have been so many speeches in old england and new , is but a devise and design to get money , and that there is indeed no such matter as any work of gods grace amongst that people . but if there were any truth in this saying or surmise , i marvel why the magistrates and elders then present at natick , did upon the reasons rendred , advise the deferring of the inchurching of the indians that day , and why they did not rather hasten forward the work without any more ado , or longer delay . for the report of a church of indians would in all likelihood have more prevailed for the end alledged , than all that hath been reported hitherto but our attending in this business to the honor of jesus christ , and the good of this poor peoples souls , and so to that which rule and right reason required , rather than to what might seem conducible for wordly advantage , may be a sufficient witness of our sincerity , contrary to the conceit and surmise afore mentioned , and a sufficient confutation of it . and yet though they be not combined into church-estate , there is so much of gods work amongst them , as that i cannot but count it a great evil , yea , a great injury to god and his goodness for any to make light or nothing of it . to see and to hear indians opening their mouths , and lifting up their hands and their eyes in solemn prayer to the living god , calling on him by his name jehovah , in the mediation of jesus christ , and this for a good while together ; to see and hear them exhorting one another from the word of god ; to see them and hear them confessing the name of christ jesus , and their own sinfulness , sure this is more than usual . and though they spake in a language , of which many of us understood but little , yet we that were present that day , we saw them , and we heard them perform the duties mentioned , with such grave and sober countenances , with such comely reverence in gesture , and their whol carriage , and with such plenty of tears trickling down the cheeks of some of them , as did argue to us that they spake with much good affection , and holy fear of god , and it much affected our hearts . nor is it credible to me , nor for ought i know to any that was present that day , that in these things they were acted and led by that spirit which is wont to breath amongst indians , the spirit of satan , or of corrupt nature , but that herein they had with them another spirit . but if there be any work of grace amongst them , it would surely bring forth , and be accompanied with the reformation of their disordered lives , as in other things , so in their neglect of labor , and their living in idleness and pleasure . i confess the allegation is weighty , and i deny not but some sober and godly persons , who do heartily wish well to this work , have been as much troubled in their minds touching this particular as any that i know of . but yet somthing may be said in answer therto , & chiefly this , that since the word of god came amongst them , and that they have attended thereto , they have more applied themselves unto labor than formerly : for evidence whereof , appeal my be made to what was seen at natick that day , and is still to be seen in that place , i mean the grounds that they have fenced in , and clawed and broken up , and especially their capacious meeting-house , the dimensions whereof are expressed in the relation : little did i think when i saw that fabrick , but that some english carpenter or other had had the chief hand in the framing and erecting of it ; and that more hands than indians , yea , and more english than one had been employed about it . but now understanding that the indians alone were the builders of it , it is a good testimony to me both of their industry , and likewise of their skill ; for where these are utterly wanting , yea , where there is not some good measure of them , such a building i conceive could never be raised . it is true , that considering the manner of their bringing up , being little accustomed to labor , but the contrary , it is not much to be marveled if they be not comparable therein to some english , who from their child-hood have been trained up thereto ; yet we see they are coming to it , and i hope will fall to it more and more ; let all that love their souls , pray for them that they may , yea , let all that love the lord jesus christ pray for them , that the work of god may still prosper amongst them , that many more of them may be turned from darkness to light , and from the power of satan unto god ; and that being converted they may be preserved in christ , and be built up in him to further growth and perfection , from day to day . and let unfeigned thanksgiving be rendred to the lord by his saints for all that is already wrought amongst them : and oh , let the english take heed , both in our dear native country , and here , lest for our unthankfulness , and many other sins , the lord should take the gospel from us , and bestow our mercy therein upon them , as upon a nation that would yeeld the fruits thereof in better sort than many of us have done . the sins of the jewish nation to whom the gospel was first preached , provoked god to take his kingdom from them , and to call in the gentils : yet it appeareth by rom. . . . . that this mercy vouchsafed to the gentiles , shall in time provoke the jews to an holy jealousie , and emulation , to look after that mercy again that once they refused , that so through the mercy bestowed on the gentiles , they ( i mean the jews ) might at last again obtain mercy . happy were the english if we could yeeld the fruits of gods gospel , that it might not be taken from us ; and happy also if the mercy coming to these indians ( though not yet taken from us ) might provoke us so to do , that so the kingdom of god , the gospel of salvation , being not taken from us , and given to them , but though given to them , yet might still continue with us , and with our posterity from generation to generation . dorchester in new-england this th of ber . rich. mather . a brief relation of the proceedings of the lords work among the indians , in reference unto their church-estate ; the reasons of the not accomplishing thereof at present : with some of their confessions ; whereby it may be discerned in some measure , how far the lord hath prepared among them fit matter for a church . these indians ( the better and wiser sort of them ) have for some years inquired after church-estate , baptism , and the rest of the ordinances of god , in the observation whereof they see the godly english to walk . i have from time to time , delayed them upon this point , that until they were come up unto civil cohabitation , government , and labor , which a fixed condition of life will put them upon , they were not so capable to be betrusted with that treasure of christ , lest they should scandalize the same , and make it of none effect , because if any should through temptation fall under censure , he could easily run away ( as some have done ) and would be tempted so to do , unless he were fixed in an habitation , and had some means of livelihood to lose , and leave behind him : such reasons have satisfied them hitherunto . but now being come under civil order , and fixing themselves in habitations , and bending themselves to labor , as doth appear by their works of fencings , buildings &c. and especially in building , without any english workmans help , or direction , a very sufficient meeting-house , of fifty foot long twenty five foot broad , neer twelve foot high betwixt the joynts , wel sawen , and framed ( which is a specimen , not only of their singular ingenuity , and dexerity , but also of some industry ) i say this being so , now my argument of delaying them from entering into church-estate , was taken away . therefore in way of preparation of them thereunto , i did this summer call forth sundry of them in the dayes of our publick assemblies in gods worship ; somtimes on the sabbath when i could be with them , and sometimes on lecture daies , to make confession before the lord of their former sins , and of their present knowledg of christ , and experience of his grace ; which they solemnly doing , i wrote down their confessions : which having done , and being in my own heart hopeful that there was among them fit matter for a church , i did request all the elders about us to hear them reade , that so they might give me advice what to do in this great , and solemn business ; which being done on a day appointed for the purpose , it pleased god to give their confessions such acceptance in their hearts , as that they saw nothing to hinder their proceeding , to try how the lord would appear therein . whereupon , after a day of fasting and prayer among our selves , to seek the lord in that behalf , there was another day of fasting and prayer appointed , and publick notice thereof , and of the names of indians were to confess , and enter into covenant that day , was given to all the churches about us , to seek the lord yet further herein , and to make solemn confessions of christ his truth and grace , and further to try whether the lord would vouchsafe such grace unto them , as to give them acceptance among the saints , into the fellowship of church-estate , and enjoyment of those ordinances which the lord hath betrusted his churches withal . that day was the thirteenth of the eighth month . when the assembly was met , the first part of the day was spent in prayer unto god , and exercise in the word of god ; in which , my self first ; and after that , two of the indians did exercise ; and so the time was spent till after ten , or near eleven of the clock . then addressing our selves unto the further work of the day , i first requested the reverend elders ( many being present ) that they would ask them questions touching the fundamental points of religion , that thereby they might have some tryal of their knowledg , and better that way , than if themselves should of themselves declare what they beleeve , or than if i should ask them questions in these matters : after a little conference hereabout , it was concluded , that they should first make confession of their experience in the lords work upon their hearts , because in so doing , it is like something will be discerned of their knowledg in the doctrines of religion : and if after those confessions there should yet be cause to inquire further touching any point of religion it might be fitly done at last . whereupon we so proceeded , and called them forth in order to make confession . it was moved in the assembly by reverend mr. wilson , that their former confessions also , as well as these which they made at present , might be read unto the assembly , because it was evident that they were daunted much to speak before so great and grave an assembly as that was , but time did not permit it so to be then : yet now in my writing of their confessions i will take that course , that so it may appear what encouragement there was to proceed so far as we did ; and that such as may reade these their confessions , may the better discern of the reality of the grace of christ in them . the first which was called forth is named totherswamp , whose former confession read before the elders , was as followeth : before i prayed unto god , the english , when i came unto their houses , often said unto me , pray to god ; but i having many friends who loved me , and i loved them , and they cared not for praying to god , and therefore i did not : but i thought in my heart , that if my friends should die , and i live , i then would pray to god ; soon after , god so wrought , that they did almost all die , few of them left ; and then my heart feared , and i thought , that now i will pray unto god , and yet i was ashamed to pray ; and if i eat and did not pray , i was ashamed of that also ; so that i had a double shame upon me : then you came unto us , and taught us , and said unto us , pray unto god ; and after that , my heart grew strong , and i was no more ashamed to pray , but i did take up praying to god ; yet at first i did not think of god , and eternal life , but only that the english should love me , and i loved them : but after i came to learn what sin was , by the commandements of god , and then i saw all my sins , lust , gaming , &c. ( he named more . ) you taught , that christ knoweth all our hearts , and seeth what is in them , if humility , or anger , or evil thoughts , christ seeth all that is in the heart ; then my heart feared greatly , because god was angry for all my sins ; yea , now my heart is full of evil thoughts , and my heart runs away from god , therefore my heart feareth and mourneth . every day i see sin in my heart ; one man brought sin into the world , and i am full of that sin , and i break gods word every day . i see i deserve not pardon , for the first mans sinning ; i can do no good , for i am like the devil , nothing but evil thoughts , and words , and works . i have lost all likeness to god , and goodness , and therefore every day i sin against god , and i deserve death and damnation : the first man brought sin first , and i do every day ad to that sin , more sins ; but christ hath done for us all righteousness , and died for us because of our sins , and christ teacheth us , that if we cast away our sins , and trust in christ , then god will pardon all our sins ; this i beleeve christ hath done , i can do no righteousness , but christ hath done it for me ; this i beleeve , and therefore i do hope for pardon . when i first heard the commandements , i then took up praying to god , and cast off sin . again , when i heard , and understood redemption by christ , then i beleeved jesus christ to take away my sins : every commandement taught me sin , and my duty to god . when you ask me , why do i love god ? i answer , because he giveth me all outward blessings , as food , clothing , children , all gifts of strength , speech , hearing ; especially that he giveth us a minister to teach us , and giveth us government ; and my heart feareth lest government should reprove me : but the greatest mercy of all is christ , to give us pardon and life . totherswamp the confession which he made on the fast day before the great assembly , was as followeth : i confess in the presence of the lord , before i prayed , many were my sins , not one good word did i speak , not one good thought did i think , not one good action did i doe : i did act all sins , and full was my heart of evil thoughts : when the english did tell me of god , i cared not for it . i thought it enough if they loved me : i had many friends that loved me , and i thought if they died , i would pray to god : and afterward it so came to pass ; then was my heart ashamed , to pray i was ashamed , & if i prayed not , i was ashamed ; a double shame was upon me : when god by you taught us , very much ashamed was my heart ; then you taught us that christ knoweth all our harts : therefore truly he saw my thoughts , and i had thought , if my kindred should die i would pray to god ; therfore they dying , i must now pray to god : and therefore my heart feared , for i thought christ knew my thoughts : then i heard you teach , the first man god made was named adam , & god made a covenant with him , do and live , thou and thy children ; if thou do not thou must die , thou and thy children ; and we are children of adam poor sinners , therefore we all have sinned , for we have broke gods covenant , therefore evil is my heart therefore god is very angry with me , we sin against him every day ; but this great mercy god hath given us , he hath given us his only son , and promiseth , that whosoever beleeveth in christ shall be saved : for christ hath dyed for us in our stead , for our sins , and he hath done for us all the words of god , for i can do no good act , only christ can , and only christ hath done all for us ; christ have deserved pardon for us , and risen again , he hath ascended to god , and doth ever pray for us ; therefore all beleevers souls shall goe to heaven to christ . but when i heard that word of christ , christ said repent and beleeve , and christ seeth who repenteth , then i said , dark and weak is my soul , and i am one in darkness , i am a very sinful man , and now i pray to christ for life . hearing you teach that word that the scribes and pharisees said why do thy disciples break the tradition of the fathers ? christ answered , why do ye make void the commandements of god ? then my heart feared that i do so , when i teach the indians , because i cannot teach them right , and thereby make the word of god vain . again , christ said if the blind lead the blind they will both fall into the ditch ; therfore i feared that i am one blind , and when i teach other indians i shal caus them to fall into the ditch . this is the love of god to me , that he giveth me all mercy in this world , and for them al i am thankfull ; but i confess i deserve hell ; i cannot deliver my self , but i give my soul and my flesh to christ and i trust my soul with him for he is my redeemer , and i desire to call upon him while i live . this was his confession which ended , mr. allin further demanded of him this question , how he found his heart , now in the matter of repentance his answer was ; i am ashamed of all my sins , my heart is broken for them and melteth in me , i am angry with my self for my sins , and i pray to christ to take away my sins , and i desire that they may be pardoned . but it was desired that further question might be forborn , lest time would be wanting to here them all speak . then waban was called forth , whose confession was as followeth ; no former confession of his being read unto the elders . before i heard of god , and before the english came into this country , many evil things my heart did work , many thoughts i had in my heart ; i wished for riches , i wished to be a witch , i wished to be a sachem ; and many such other evils were in my heart : then when the english came , still my heart did the same things ; when the english taught me of god ( i coming to their houses ) i would go out of their doors , and many years i knew nothing ; when the english taught me i was angry with them : but a little while agoe after the great sikness , i considered what the english do , and i had some desire to do as they do ; and after that i began to work as they work ; and then i wondered how the english come to be so strong to labor ; then i thought i shall quickly die , and i feared lest i should die before i prayed to god ; then i thought , if i prayed to god in our language , whether could god understand my prayers in our language ; therefore i did ask mr. jackson , and mr. mahu , if god understood prayers in our language ? they answered me , god doth understand all languages in the world . but i do not know how to confess , and little do i know of christ ; i fear i shall not beleeve a great while , and very slowly ; i do not know what grace is in my heart , there is but little good in me ; but this i know , that christ hath kept all gods commandements for us , and that christ doth know all our hearts ; and now i desire to repent of all my sins : i neither have done , nor can do the commandements of the lord , but i am ashamed of all i do , and i do repent of all my sins , even of all that i do know of : i desire that i may be converted from all my sins , and that i might beleeve in christ , and i desire him ; i dislike my sins , yet i do not truly pray to god in my heart : no matter for good words , all is the true heart ; and this day i do not so much desire good words , as throughly to open my heart : i confess i can do nothing , but deserve damnation ; only christ can help me and do for me . but i have nothing to say for my self that is good ; i judg that i am a sinner , and cannot repent , but christ hath deserved pardon for us . this confession being not so satisfactory as was desired , mr. wilson testified , that he spake these latter expressions with tears , which i observed not , because i attended to writing ; but i gave this testimony of him , that his conversation was without offence to the english , so far as i knew , and among the indians , it was exemplar : his gift is not so much in expressing himself this way , but in other respects useful and eminent ; it being demanded in what respect , i answered to this purpose , that his gift lay in ruling , judging of cases , wherein he is patient , constant , and prudent , insomuch that he is much respected among them , for they have chosen him a ruler of fifty , and he ruleth well according to his measure . it was further said , they thought he had been a great drawer on to religion ; i replyed , so he was in his way , and did prevail with many ; and so it rested . the next that was called , was william of sudbury , his indian name is nataôus ; his former confession read before the elders , was as followeth : i confess that before i prayed , i committed all manner of sins , and served many gods : when the english came first , i going to their houses , they spake to me of your god , but when i heard of god , my heart hated it ; but when they said the devil was my god , i was angry , because i was proud : when i came to their houses i hated to hear of god , i loved lust in my own house and not god , i loved to pray to many gods . five years ago , i going to english houses , and they speaking of god , i did a little like of it , yet when i went again to my own house , i did all manner of sins , and in my heart i did act all sins , though i would not be seen by man . then going to your house , i more desired to hear of god ; and my heart said , i will pray to god so long as i live : then i went to the minister mr. browns house , and told him i would pray as long as i lived ; but he said i did not say it from my heart , and i beleeve it . when wahan spake to me that i should pray to god , i did so . but i had greatly sinned against god , and had not beleeved the word , but was proud : but then i was angry with my self , and loathed my self , and thought god will not forgive me my sins . for when i had been abroad in the woods i would be very angry , and would lye unto men , and i could not find the way how to be a good man : then i beleeved your teaching , that when good men die , the angels carry their souls to god ; but evil men dying , they go to hell , and perish for ever . i thought this a true saying , and i promised to god , to pray to god as long as i live . i had a little grief in my heart five years ago for my sins : but many were my prides ; somtime i was angry with my self , and pityed my self ; but i thought god would not pardon such a proud heart as mine is : i beleeve that christ would have me to forsake my anger ; i beleeve that christ hath redeemed us , and i am glad to hear those words of god ; and i desire that i might do al the good waies of god , and that i might truly pray unto god : i do now want graces , and these christ only teacheth us , and only christ hath wrought our redemption , and he procureth our pardon for all our sins ; and i beleeve that when beleevers dy , gods angels carry them to heaven : but i want faith to beleeve the word of god , and to open my eyes , and to help me to cast away all sins ; and christ hath deserved for me eternall life : i have deserved nothing my self ; christ hath deserved all , and giveth me faith to beleeve it . willam of sudbury : his indian name is nataÔus . the confession which he made on the fast day before the great assembly was as followeth . before i prayed to god , i commited all sins ; and serving many gods . i much despised praying unto god , for i beleeved the devil , and he did dayly teach me to sin , and i did them : somtimes hearing of god my heart did hate it , and went to my own house , because i did love to commit all sin there . about six years ago , a little i liked to hear of god , and yet i hated that which was good : hearing that cutshamoquin prayed , then i thought i will pray also : a year after , i heard of praying to god , and i went to mr. browns house and told him i will pray to god as long as live ; he said , i doubt of it , and bid me cut off my hair , and i did so presently ; and then i desired to be like god , and jesus christ , and to call on him , but i found it very hard to beleeve ; yet i thought , i wil pray as long as i live . hearing that word , that christ dyed for us , was buried & rose again , and hearing of that word also , seek peace & imbrace the word : then i began to beleeve that christ died for us , for sin ; and i saw my heart very full of sin . and hearing that word , that christ went to the mount olives , and ascended , i beleeved and thought , oh that god would pardon me ; but i fear he will not , because i have been so long time a sinner . somtime i am angry with my self , for my many evil thoughts in my heart ; and to this day i want grace , and cannot confess , because i have been so great a sinner : and this day i confess , a little i pray , and that i can pray but a little and weakly . when i heard that word of god , that all from the rising to the setting sun shall pray i first under stood it it not , and wondered how it should be : after i saw that when they beleeve and obey god , then he will teach them to do right things , and god will teach us to do al things for god , sleeping and waking to be with god . but still do foolishly , and not according to my prayer : i cannot get pardon of my sins , for my sins are great in thought , word , and deed : and no man can cast off his own sins , but that is the work of christ only to work it in us ; a man cannot make a right prayer but when christ assisteth him ; then we shall do all things well . i beleeve that christ is god , and the son of god because when he dyed , he rose again , and he dyed for our sins ; and i beleeve he is in heaven and ever prayeth for us , and sendeth his gospel unto us : and i am angry with my self , because i do not beleeve the word of god , and gospel of jesus christ . the next which was called forth was monequassun , who is our school-master ; whose former confession , read before the elders , was as followeth . i confess my sorrow for all my sins against god , and before men : when i first heard instruction , i beleeved not , but laughed at it , and scorned praying to god ; afterward , when we were taught at cohannet ( that is the place where he lived ) i still hated praying , and i did think of running away , because i cared not for praying to god ; but afterwards , because i loved to dwell at that place , i would not leave the place , and therefore i thought i will pray to god , because i would still stay at that place , therefore i prayed not for the love of god , but for love of the place i lived in ; after that i desired a little to learn the catechisme on the lecture daies , and i did learn the ten commandements , and after that , all the points in the catechisme ; yet afterwards i cast them all away again , then was my heart filled with folly , and my sins great sins ; afterwards by hearing , i began to fear , because of my many sins , lest the wise men should come to know them , and punish me for them ; and then again i thought of running away because of my many sins : but after that i thought i would pray rightly to god , and cast away my sins ; then i saw my hypocricy , because i did ask some questions , but did not do that which i knew : afterward i considered of my question , and thought i would pray to god , and would consider of some other question , and i asked this , question , how should i get wisdom ? and the answer to it did a little turn my heart from sin , to seek after god ; and i then considered that the word of god was good ; then i prayed to god because of the word of god . the next lecture day you taught that word of god , if any man lack wisdom , let him ask it of god , who giveth freely to them that ask him , and upbraideth no man , james , . . then again a little my heart was turned after god , the word also said , repent , mourn , and beleeve in jesus christ : this also helped me on . then you taught , that he that beleeveth not christ , and repenteth not of sin , they are foolish and wicked ; and because they beleeve not , they shall perish : then i thought my self a fool , because i beleeved not christ , but sinned every day , and after i heard the word , i greatly broke the word . but afterward i heard this promise of god , who ever repenteth and beleeveth in christ , god will forgive him all his sins , he shall not perish ; then i thought , that as yet , i do not repent , and beleeve in christ : then i prayed to god , because of this his promise ; and then i prayed to god , for god and for christ his sake : after that again i did a little break the word of christ . and then i heard some other words of god , which shewed me my sins , and my breakings of gods word ; and sometimes i thought god and christ would forgive me , because of the promise to them that beleeve in christ , and repent of sin , i thought i did that which god spake in the promise . then being called to confess , to prepare to make a church at natick , i loved cohannet ; but after hearing this instruction , that we should not only be hearers , but doers of the word , then my heart did fear . and afterward hearing that in matthew , christ saw two brethren mending their nets , he said , follow me and i will make you fishers of men , presently they followed christ ; and when i heard this , i feared , because i was not willing to follow christ to natick ; they followed christ at his word , but i did not , for now christ saith to us , follow me : then i was much troubled , and considered of this word of god . afterward i heard another word , the blind men cryed after christ and said , have mercy on us thou son of david , but after they came to christ , he called them , and asked them , what shall i do for you ? they said , lord open our eyes ; then christ had pity on them , and opened their eyes , and they followed christ ; when i heard this , my heart was troubled , then i prayed to god and christ , to open mine eyes , and if christ open my eyes , then i shall rejoyce to follow christ : then i considered of both these scriptures , and i a little saw that i must follow christ . and now my heart desireth to make confession of what i know of god , and of my self , and of christ : i beleeve that there is only one god , and that he made and ruleth all the world , and that he the lord , giveth us al good things : i know that god giveth every day all good mercies , life , and health , and all ; i have not one good thing , but god it is that giveth it me , i beleeve that god at first made man like god , holy , wise , righteous ; but the first man sinned , for god promised him , if thou do my commandements , thou shalt live , and thy children ; but if thou sin , thou shalt die , thou and thy children ; this covenant god made with the first man . but the first man did not do the commandements of god , he did break gods word , he beleeved satan ; and now i am full of sin , because the first man brought sin ; dayly i am full of sin in my heart : i do not dayly rejoyce in repentance , because satan worketh dayly in my heart , and opposeth repentance , and all good works ; day and night my heart is full of sin . i beleeve that jesus christ was born of the virgin mary ; god promised her she should bear a son , and his name should be jesus , because he shall deliver his people from their sins : and when christ came to preach , he said , repent , because the kingdom of heaven is at hand ; again christ taught , except ye repent and become as a little child , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven ; therefore humble your selves like one of these little children , and great shall be your kingdom in heaven . again christ said , come unto me all ye that are weary and heavy laden with sin , and i will give you rest : take up my cross , and yoak , learn of me , for i am meek , and ye shall find rest to your souls , for my yoak is easie , and burden light : these are the words of christ , and i know christ he is good , but my works are evil : christ his words are good , but i am not humble ; but if we be humble and beleeving in christ , he pardons all our sins . i now desire to beleeve in jesus christ , because of the word of christ , that i may be converted and become as a little child . i confess my sins before god , and before jesus christ this day ; now i desire all my sins may be pardoned ; i now desire repentance in my heart , and ever to beleeve in christ ; now i lift up my heart to christ , and trust him with it , because i beleeve christ died for us , for all our sins , and deserved for us eternal life in heaven , and deserved pardon for all our sins . and now i give my soul to christ because he hath redeemed : i do greatly love , and like repentance in my heart , and i love to beleeve in jesus christ , and my heart is broken by repentance : al these things i do like wel of , that they may be in my heart , but because christ hath all these to give , i ask them of him that he may give me repentance , and faith in christ , and therefore i pray and beseech christ dayly for repentance and faith ; and other good waies i beg of christ dayly to give me : and i pray to christ for al these gifts and graces to put them in my heart : and now i greatly thank christ for all these good gifts which he hath given me . i know not any thing , nor can do any thing that is a good work : even my heart is dark dayly in what i should do , and my soul dyeth because of my sins , and therefore i give my soul to christ , because i know my soul is dead in sin , and dayly doth commit sin ; in my heart i sin , and all the members of my body are sinful . i beleeve jesus christ is ascended to heaven through the clouds , and he will come again from heaven : many saw christ go up to heaven , and the angels said , even so he will come again to judg all the world ; and therefore i beleeve gods promise , that all men shall rise again when christ cometh again , then all shall rise , and all their souls comes again because christ is trusted with them , and keeps their souls , therefore i desire my sins may be pardoned ; and i beleeve in christ ; and ever so long as i live , i will pray to god , and do all the good waies he commandeth . monequassun , the confession which he made on the fast day before the great assembly was as followeth i confess my sins before the lord , and before men this day : a little while since i did commit many sins , both in my hands and heart ; lusts thefts , and many other sins , and that every day : and after i heard of praying to god , and that others prayed to god , my heart did not like it , but hated it , yea and mocked at it ; and after they prayed at cohannet i stil hated it , and when i heard the word i did not like of it , but thought of running away , because i loved sin : but i loved the place of my dwelling , and therfore i thought i wil rather pray to god , and began to do it ; a little i desired to learn the ten commandements of god , and other points of catechisme ; and then a little i repented , but i was quickly weary of repentance , and fell again to sin , and full of evil thoughts was my heart : and then i played the hypocrite , and my heart was full of sin : i learned some things , but did not do what god commanded , but i sinned and playd the hypocrite ; some things i did before man , but not before god . but afterward i feared because of my sins , and feared punishment for my sins , therefore i thought again i would run away ; yet again i loving the place , would not run away , but would pray to god : and i asked a question at the lecture ▪ which was this , how i should get wisdom ? the answer made me a little to understand : but afterward i heard the word if any man lack wisdom , let him ask it of god , who giveth liberally to all that ask , and upbraideth none . but then i did fear gods anger , because of all my sins , because they were great . afterward hearing that word , that christ is named jesus , because he redeemeth us from all our sins : i thought christ would not save me , because i repent not , for he saveth only penitent beleevers ; but i am not such an one , but still a dayly sinner . afterward hearing that word , blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness , for they shall be filled : then i thought i am a poor sinner , and poor is my heart : then i prayed to god to teach me to do that which he requireth , and to pray aright . afterward hearing that word , who ever looks upon a woman to lust after her , hath already committed adultry with her in his heart ; then i thought i had done all manner of sins in the sight of god , because he seeth lust in the heart , and knoweth all the evil thoughts of my heart ; and then i did pray unto god , oh! give me repentance and pardon . afterwards when i did teach among the indians , i was much humbled because i could not reade right , and that i sinned in it ; for i saw that when i thought to do a good work , i sinned in doing it , for i knew not what was right , nor how to do it . in the night i was considering of my sins , and could not find what to do : three nights i considered what to do , and at last god shewed me mercy , and shewed me what i should do . and then i desired to learn to read gods word , and hearing that if we ask wisdom of god , he will give it , then i did much pray to god , that he would teach me to reade . after a years time , i thought i did not rightly seek , and i thought i sinned , because i did not rightly desire to read gods word , and i thought my praying was sinful , and i feared , how should i , my wife , and child be cloathed , if i spend my time in learning to reade ; but then god was merciful to me , and shewed me that word , say not , what shall i eat , or drink , or wherewith shall i be cloathed , wicked men seek after these ; but first seek the kingdom of heaven , and these things shall be added to you ; then i pr●yed god to teach me this word , and that i might do it : and then i desired to read gods word , what ever i wanted . afterward hearing that we must make a town , and gather a church at natick , my heart disliked that place ; but hearing that word , that christ met two fishers , and said , follow me , and i will make you fishers of men , and they presently left all and followed him ; hearing this , i was much troubled , because i had not beleeved christ , for i would not follow him to make a church , nor had i done what he commanded me , and then i was troubled for all my sins . again hearing that word , that the blind man called after christ , saying , thou son of david have mercy on me ; christ asked him what he would have him do , he said , lord open my eyes ; and presently christ gave him sight , and he followed christ : then again my heart was troubled , for i thought i still beleeve not , because i do not follow christ , nor hath he yet opened mine eyes : then i prayed to christ to open mine eyes , that i might see what to do , because i am blind and cannot see how to follow christ , and do what he commandeth , and i prayed to christ , teach me lord what to do , and to do what thou sayest ; and i prayed that i might follow christ : and then i thought i will follow christ to make a church . all this trouble i had to be brought to be willing to make a church : and quickly after , god laid upon me more trouble , by sickness and death ; and then i much prayed to god for life , for we were all sick , and then god would not hear me , to give us life ; but first one of my children died , and after that my wife ; then i was in great sorrow , because i thought god would no hear me , and i thought it was because i would not follow him , therefore he hears not me : then i found this sin in my heart , that i was angry at the punishment of god : but afterward i considered , i was a poor sinner , i have nothing , nor child , nor wife , i deserve that god should take away all mercies from me ; and then i repented of my sins , and did much pray , and i remembred the promise to follow christ , and my heart said , i had in this sinned , that followed not christ , and therefore i cryed for pardon of this sin : and then hearing of this word , who ever beleeveth in christ , his sins are pardoned , he beleeving that christ died for us ; and i beleeved . again hearing that word , if ye be not converted , and become as a little child , you cannot go to heaven ; then my heart thought , i do not this , but i deserve hell fire for ever ; and then i prayed christ , oh! turn me from my sin , and teach me to hear thy word ; and i prayed to my father in heaven : and after this , i beleeved in christ for pardon . afterward i heard that word , that it is a shame for a man to wear long hair , and that there was no such custom in the churches : at first i thought i loved not long hair , but i did , and found it very hard to cut it off ; and then i prayed god to pardon that sin also : afterward i thought my heart cared not for the word of god : but then i thought i would give my self up unto the lord , to do all his word . afterward i heard that word , if thy right foot offend thee , cut it off , or thy right hand , or thy right eye ; its better to go to heaven with one foot , or hand , or eye , than having both to go to hell ; then i thought my hair had been a stumbling to me , therefore i cut it off , and grieved for this fin , and prayed for pardon . after hearing that word , come unto me all ye that are weary and heavie laden with your sins , and i will give rest to your souls ; then my heart thought that i do dayly hate my sins , oh! that i could go to christ ! and christ looketh i should come unto him , therfore i will go unto him , and therfore then i prayed , oh! christ help me to come unto thee : and i prayed because of all my sins that they may be pardoned . for the first man was made like god in holiness , and righteousness , and god gave him his covenant ; but adam sinned , beleeving the devil , therefore god was angry , and therefore all we children of adam are like the devil , and dayly sin , and break every law of god , full of evil thoughts , words , and works , and only christ can deliver us from our sins , and he that beleeveth in christ is pardoned ; but my heart of my self cannot beleeve : satan hath power in me , but i cry to god , oh! give me faith , and pardon my sin , because christ alone can deliver me from hell ; therefore i pray , oh! jesus christ deliver me . christ hath provided the new covenant to save beleevers in christ , therefore i desire to give my soul to christ , for pardon of all my sins : the first covenant is broke by sin , and we deserve hell ; but christ keepeth for us the new covenant , and therfore i betrust my soul with christ . again , i desire to beleeve in christ , because christ will come to judgment , and all shall rise again , and all beleevers in this life shall then be saved ; therefore i desire to beleeve christ , and mortifie sin as long as i live ; and i pray christ to help me to beleeve : and i thank god for all his mercies every day : and now i confess before god that i loath my self for my sins and beg pardon . thus far he went in his confession ; but they being slow of speech , time was far spent and a great assembly of english understanding nothing he said , only waiting for my interpretation , many of them went forth , others whispered , and a great confusion was in the house and abroad : and i perceived that the graver sort thought the time long , therfore knowing he had spoken enough unto satisfaction ( at least as i judged ) i here took him off . then one of the elders asked , if i took him off , or whether had he finished ? i answered , that i took him off . so after my reading what he had said , we called another . the next who was called forth was ponampam , who had formerly twice made confession , and both read before the elders . his first confession was as followeth . vvhen god first had mercy on us , when they first prayed at noonanetam , i heard of it , and the first word that i heard was , that all from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof , shall pray unto god ; and i thought , oh! let it be so . after i considered what the word may be , and understood by it , that god was mercyfull ; afterwards when you alwayes came to us , i only heard the word , i did not understand it , nor meditate on it , yet i found that al my doings were sins against god ; then i prayed unto god . afterwards i heard , that god would pardon all that beleeve in christ ! and quickly after i saw my sins to be very many ; i saw that in every thing i did , i sinned : & when i saw these my sins against god , i was weary of my self , & angry with my self in my heart ; but the free mercy of god , caused me to hear his word , and then i feared because every day sin was in my heart , and i thought in vain i looked to christ : then hearing this word of christ , that christ taught through every town , and village , repent and beleeve . if any one repent , and mourn , and beleeve , i will pardon him ; then my heart thought i will pray to god as long as i live : but somtimes my heart was ashamed , and somtimes my heart was strong , and god seeth my heart : i now desire to repent , and beleeve in christ , and that christ will pardon me , and shew mercy to us all . ponampam , his second confession was as followeth : when i prayed not unto god i ever sinned every day : but when noonanetam indians first prayed , i heard of it , and three nights i considered whether i should pray or no , but i found not how to pray unto god , but how not to pray : but then i heard gods free mercy in his word , call all to pray , from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof ; yet presently i lost that word , and sinned again , and committed many sins . then gods free mercy shewed me in the catechism , that god made all the world , yet my heart did not beleeve , because i knew i sprung from my father and mother : i did alwaies act many sins , because i was born in sin , and in vain i heard gods word . then i heard gods word , that christ was made man , yet i did but hear it , though i thought it might be true : i thought i would cast off all sin , but then i found that i loved them very much . i heard gods promise to abraham , to increase his children as the stars for number , but i beleeved not , because he had but one son : and thus i cast off the word , and committed sins . i heard also from the word , that all men are not alike to god , some are first to god , [ or preferred before other ; ] but i did not beleeve it because all men die alike ; therefore they are not the sons of god , and god is not their father : so still i beleeved not the word , but broke gods word dayly , and in vain i heard gods word . afterward i heard that word of god to moses , i 'le be with thy mouth , for who maketh the seeing eye , or hearing ear , is it not i ? saith the lord : then i understood a little of god , and of his word ; but still i acted much sin . afterward i heard that word of free-grace , repent , and beleeve the gospel , and who ever beleeve shall be saved ; then my heart beleeved , then i saw i had prayed but afore man , & so was my hearing , or any other duty ; and i saw other of my sins against god ; and then i saw that my heart did not beleev as it should , & i desired to be open in my doings ; i saw i brake every command of god : yet presently i lost this , and the word of christ was of little worth unto me ; and i saw i loved sin very much . then again i heard that word , that all shall pray from the rising to the sitting sun ; then i thought i will pray to god , and yet only my tongue prayed . then again i heard the catechism , that god made adam and eve , and al the world , and a little i beleeved that word . afterward i heard another word , that they are bastards , not sons , whom god afflicts not : i did a little think this to be a truth , and then i prayed more unto god , and yet i saw i feared man more than god : but notwithstanding , i have prayed unto god from that day unto this day ; yet i see i sin every day . when i heard that word that god spake to moses in the mount by a trumpet , and said , thou shalt not have any other god , thou shalt not lust , nor lye , nor kill , &c. i saw all these i had broken ; i heard the word , but sinned in what i heard : i heard that my heart must break and melt for sin , and beleeve in christ , and that we should try our hearts if it be so ; yet i could try but little , nor find but little , but still i sinned much . i heard that word , that they which cast off god , god will cast off them ; and i feared lest god should cast me away , because of my sins : i was ashamed of my sins , and my heart melted , and i thought i wil give my self to god , and to christ , and do what he will for ever ; and because of this promise of pardon to al that repent and beleeve , my heart desireth to pray to god as long as i live . ponampam ; the confession he made on the fast day , before the great assembly was as followeth : before i prayed unto god , i committed all manner of sins ; and when i heard the catechism , that god made me , i did not beleeve it , because i knew i sprang from my father and mother , and therefore i despised the word , and therefore again i did act all sins , and i did love them . then god was merciful to me , to let me hear that word , that al shal pray from the rising to the s●●ting sun ; and then i considered whether i should pray , but i found not in my heart that all should pray : but then i considered of praying , and what would become of me if i did not pray , and what would become of me , if i did pray ; but i thought if i did pray , the sacbems would be angry , because they did not say , pray to god , and therefore i did not yet pray ; but considering of that word , that all shall pray , i was troubled , and i found in my heart that i would pray unto god ; and yet i feared that others would laugh at me , and therefore i did not yet pray . afterward god was yet merciful to me , and i heard that god made the world , and the first man , and i thought it was true , and therefore i would pray to god , because he hath made all ; and yet when i did pray , i thought i prayed not aright , because i prayed for the sake of man , and i thought this to be a great sin . but then i wondered at gods free mercy to me , for i saw god made me , and giveth me all mercies : and then was i troubled , and saw that many were my sins , and that i do not yet beleeve ; then i prayed , yet my heart sinned , for i prayed only with my mouth : and then i repented of my sins , and then a little i considered and remembred gods love unto us : but i was a sinner , and many were my sins , and a little i repented of them ; and yet again i sinned , and quickly was my heart full of sin : then again was my heart angry with my self , and often i lost all this again , and fell into sin . then i heard that word , that god sent moses to egypt , and promised i will be with thee ; that promise i considered , but i thought that in vain i did seek , and i was ashamed that i did so : and i prayed , oh god teach me truly to pray , not only before man , but before god , and pardon al these my sins . again i heard that word , that christ taught through every town and village , repent and beleeve , and be saved , and a little i beleeved this word , and i loved it , and then i saw all my sins , and prayed for pardon . again i heard that word , he that casteth off god , him will god cast off ; and i found in my heart , that i had done this , and i feared because of this my sin , lest god should cast me off , and that i should for ever perish in hell , because god hath cast me off , i having cast of god : then i was troubled about hell , and what shall i do if i be damned ! then i heard that word , if ye repent and beleeve , god pardons all sins ; then i thought , oh that i had this , i desired to repent and beleeve , and i begged of god , oh give me repentance and faith , freely do it for me ; and i saw god was merciful to do it , but i did not attend the lord , only sometimes ; and i now confess i am ashamed of my sins , my heart is broken , and melteth in me ; i am angry at my self ; i desire pardon in christ ; i betrust my soul with christ , that he may do it for me . by such time as this man had finished , the time was far spent , and he was the fift in number , their speeches being slow , and they were the more slow at my request , that i might write what they said ; & oft i was forced to inquire of my interpreter ( who sat by me ) because i did not perfectly understand some sentences , especially of some of them : these things did make the work long-som , considering the inlargement of spirit god gave some of them ; and should we have proceeded further , it would have been sun-set before the confessions in likelyhood would have been finished , besides all the rest of the work that was to be done to finish so solemn a work ; and the place being remote in the woods , the nights long and cold and people not fitted to lie abroad , and no competant lodgings in the place for such persons , and the work of such moment as wonld not admit an hudling up in hast . and besides all this , though i had fully used all fit means , to have all the interpreters present that i could , that so the intetpretation might not depend upon my single testemony , yet so it was that they all failed , and i was alone ( as i have been wont to be in this work ) which providence of god was not to be neglected in so solemn a business . wherfore the magistrates , elders , and grave men present , advised together what to do , and the conclusion was , not to proceed any further at present , yet so to carry the matter , as that the indians might in no wise be discouraged , but encouraged ; to which end , one of the elders was requested to speak unto the english , the two above said reasons , viz. the want of interpreters , and want of time , to finish at this time so solemn a work ; but to refer it to a more fitting time . and i was desired to declare it to the indians , which i did to this purpose , that the magistrates , elders , and other christian people present , did much rejoyce to hear their confessions , and advised them to go on in that good way ; but as for the gathering a church among them this day , it could not be ; partly , because neither mr. mayhew , nor mr. leveridg . nor any interpreter was here ( for whom they knew i had sent , some of themselves being the messengers to carry letters time enough ) and it was gods ordinance , that when any were to judg a case , though they could beleeve one witness , yet they could not judg under two or three . also i told them , that themselves might easily see there was not time enough to finish so solemn a work this day ; therefore they advised , and god called to refer it to a fitter season ; in which advice they rested : and so was the work of that day , with prayers unto god , finished ; the accomplishment being referred to a fitter season . as for my self , the lord put it into the hearts of the elders , to speak unto me words of comfort , and acceptance of my poor labor , expressing their loving fear , lest i should be discouraged by this disappointment : i shall therefore nakedly declare , and open my very heart in this matter . the lord he knoweth , that with much fear , and care i went about this work , even unto the sensible wasting , and weakning of my natural strength , knowing that the investing these young babee in christ , with the highest , and all the external priviledges of the church , the spouse of jesus christ on earth , would have drawn upon me much more labor and care , lest they should in any wise scandalize the same ; unto which i have now more time assigned me by the lord to prepare them , yea , and a greater advantage than i had before , because this dispensation of the lord , doth give me occasion to instruct them of their need to be filled with deeper apprehensions of the weight and solemnity of that great work , though it is most true , that they also came on unto it with many fears , and questions , what they should do when they should be a church : when therefore i saw the lord by the counsel of his servants ( which is an holy reverend ordinance of christ ) and by his providence denying me the help of all interpreters , having many witnesses how much care and pains i took every way i knew , to be supplied therein ; and that the work it self was extended by the lords gracious inlarging them in their confessions , so that the day was not sufficient to accomplish it ; i say , when i saw the lord speaking that delatory word , i cannot express what a load it took off my heart , and i did gladly follow the lord therein , yea , and i bless the lord for that day , that it was carried so far as it was , for the cause of christ hath many waies gained by it , many hundreds of the precious saints , being much comforted and confirmed in their hopes of this work of christ among them , and their faith and prayers much quickned by what they heard and saw . and because all witnesses failed me , let me say but this , i began , and have followed this work for the lord according to the poor measure of grace received , & not for base ends . i have been true & faithful unto their souls , and in writing and reading their confessions , i have not knowingly , or willingly made them better , than the lord helped themselves to make them , but am verily perswaded on good grounds , that i have rather rendered them weaker ( for the most part ) than they delivered them ; partly by missing some words of weight in some sentences , partly by my short and curt touches of what they more fully spake , and partly by reason of the different idioms of their language and ours . now follow those preparitory confessions , which were read before the elders , most of them . the first that made a publick confession , and was took in writing , was peter , a ruler of ten among them , a godly man , who quickly after he had made this confession , fell sick , and died , and now injoyeth the fruit of his faith , the end of his hope , the salvaion of his soul , among the blessed ; where i am perswaded he shall be found in the great day . his confession was as followeth . vvhen i first prayed to god , i did not fear god , but i feared perdition , because the english had told me , that all should be damned , that call not upon god . but now i know that god made all the world , and i fear him ; now i beleeve that which you teach is true ; now i beleeve that god calleth us to natik , that here we may be ruled by god , and gather a church ; now i beleeve that it is gods command , that we should labor six dayes , and keep the sabbath on the seventh day : now my heart is greatly abased for all my sins ; for we see though we pray to god we are ready to offend each other , and be angry with each other , and that we love not each other as we should do ; and for this i grieve & my heart crieth : now i remember that god saith thou shalt not lust , but before i prayed to god i was full of lusts . god saith , we must have but one wife , and at first did make but one man and one woman ; but i followed many women . god saith , remember to keep the sabbath day holy ; but i did hunt , or shoot , or any thing on the sabbath day : many other sins i committed ; but now i see them , and wil cast them away because they are vile , and god forbiddeth them : when i prayed first my sins were not pardoned , for my praying is worth nothing : now i am humbled , and mourn for my sins and yet cannot deliver my self nor get pardon , therfore i trust christ with my soul . the next confession was made by john speene , as followeth . his first confession was this , when i first prayed to god , i did not pray for my soul but only i did as my friends did , because i loved them ; and though i prayed to god , yet i did not fear sin , nor was i troubled at it . i heard that when good men die , their souls go to god , and are there happy , but i cannot say that i beleeved it . afterward my heart run away into the country , after our old wayes , and i did almost cast off praying to god . a little while after that , i saw that i had greatly sinned , and then i saw all my sins , afore i prayed to god , and since i prayed to god , and i saw that god was greatly angry for them , and that i cannot get pardon for them ; but yet my heart saith i will pray to god as long as i live : i thought god would not pardon me , and yet i would cast away my sins . i did greatly love hunting , and hated labor : but now i beleeve that word of god , which saith , six dayes thou shalt labor . and god doth make my body strong to labor . john speene , this confession being short in some main points , he afterward made confession as followeth . when i first prayed i prayed not for my soul , but for the sake of men , i loved men , and for their sakes i prayed to god . before i prayed many were my sins , and my heart was heaped full , and ran over in all manner of lusts and sins . after i heard of praying to god , i let it fall and regarded it not ; after i came to hear the word , i sometimes feared , but soon lost it again . then my heart ran away after our former courses , and then what ever i heard i lost , because my heart was run away ; and many were my sins , and therfore i could not get pardon , because my heart run away , and many were my sins , and i did indeed go into the country . but afterwards , i hearing the catechism , i desired to learn it , and then i beleeved that when beleevers die , their souls go to god , and are ever happy ; when sinners die , their souls go to hel and are ever tormented ; and that when christ judges the world , our bodies rise again , and then we shall receive the judgment of christ ; the good shal stand at his right hand , the bad at his left : this i beleeved was true , and then i saw all my great follies and evils : and now my heart desired to lay by hunting , and to work every day ; and this is gods command , and therfore a good way ; god said , thou shalt work six daies , and if thou work , thou shalt eat ; therfore i beleeve it , and my heart promiseth that i will this do as long as i live . now i see i did great folly , for now i hear that god saith work ; and now i fear because god hath afflicted me , in taking away my brother a ruler : now i am troubled , i fear i sinned in not beleeving our ruler , because now god hath taken him away ; he taught me good words , but i beleeved them not , and now i repent because christ calleth me to it : great is the punishment of god in taking away our ruler ; and now i pray , and say to christ , oh jesus christ christ i have sinned : i beleeve that if i repent and be humbled , and pray not only outwardly but inwardly , and beleeve in christ , then god will pardon all my sin ; but i cannot get pardon of sin , i cannot deserve pardon , but only christ hath merited pardon for us : i cannot deliver my self from all my sins , but christ redeemeth , and delivereth from all sin : i deserve not one mercy of god , but christ hath merited all mercies for us . the next are the confessions of robin speene , who three several times came forth , and confessed as followeth . his first confession : i was ashamed because you taught to pray to god , and i did not take it up ; i see god is angry with me for all my sins , and he hath afflicted me by the death of three of my children , and i fear god is still angry , because great are my sins , and i fear lest my children be not gone to heaven , because i am a great sinner , yet one of my children prayed to god before it died , and therefore my heart rejoyceth in that . i remember my panwaning [ for he was a panwan ] my lust , my gaming , and all my sins ; i know them by the commandements of god , and god heareth and seeth them all ; i cannot deliver my self from sin , therefore i do need christ , because of all my sins , i desire pardon , and i beleeve that god calls all to come to christ , and that he delivereth us from sin . robin speen , his second confession . i have found out one word more : great are my sins , and i do not know how to repent , nor do i know the evil of my sins ; only this one word , now i confess i want christ , this day i want him ; i do not truly beleeve nor repent : i see my sin , and i need christ , but i desire now to be redeemed : and i now ask you this question , what is redemption ? i answered him , by shewing him our estate by nature , and desert , the price which christ paid for us , and how it is to be applied to every particular person ; which done , he proceeded in his confession thus : i yet cannot tell whether god hath pardoned my sins , i forget the word of god ; but this i desire , that my sins may de pardoned , but my heart is foolish , and a great part of the word stayeth not in my heart strongly . i desire to cast all my sins out of my heart : but i remember my sins , that i may get them pardoned , i think god doth not yet hear my prayers in this , because i cannot keep the word of god , only i desire to hear the word , and that god would hear me . robin speen , his third confession . one word more i cal to mind , great is my sin ! this saith my heart , i have found this sin , when i first heard you teach , that all the world from the rising to the sitting sun should pray to god , i then wondered a● it , and thought , i being a great sinner , how shal i pray to god ; and when i saw many come to the meeting , i wondred at it : but now i do not wonder at that work of god , and therefore i think that i do now greatly sin : and now i desire again to wonder at gods works , and i desire to rejoyce in gods good waies . now i am much ashamed , and fear because i have deserved eternal wrath by my sins : my heart is evil , my heart doth contrary to god : and this i desire , that i may be redeemed , for i cannot help my self , but only jesus christ hath done al this for me , and i deserve no good , but i beleeve christ hath deserved all for us ; and i give my self unto christ , that he may save me , because he knoweth eternal life , and can give it ; i cannot give it to my self , therefore i need jesus christ , my heart is full of evil thoughts ; and christ only can keep my soul from them , because he hath paid for my deliverance from them . the next are the confessions of nishohkou ; who twice made preparitory confessions ; the first of which only , was read before the elders . god in heaven is merciful , and i am sinful : when i first heard the word of god , i neither saw nor understood ; but after , when you taught these words , be wise , oh all ye people , and beleeve in jesus christ , then i prayed unto god ; yet afterwards i sinned , and almost forsook praying to god . afterward i understood , that god who made all the world was merciful to sinners : and truly i saw my heart very sinful , because i promised god to pray as long as i live , but my heart hath not so done . again i promised god i will follow christ in al things , and now i find my heart backward , and not so forward to make a church . god promiseth , if foolish ones pray to god for wisdom he will give it : this promise i beleeve , but i find my heart full of temptations ; but now i promise god , as in the psalm , * all my works shal be done in wisdom , for i confess al my works and words , have been foolish . god is wise and good , but i am foolish . god who hath made the world , sent his own son jesus : and jesus christ hath died for us , and deserved for us , pardon and life , this is true ; and he hath done for me all gods commandements , for i can do nothing , because i am very sinful . god in heaven is very merciful , and therfore hath called me to pray unto god . god hath promised to pardon al their sins , who pray unto god , and beleeve in the promise of christ , and christ can give me to beleeve in him . when he had made this confession , he was much abashed , for he is a bashful man ; many things he spoke that i missed , for want of through understanding some words and sentences : therfore before the fast day he made another confession , which was not read before the elders ; which was as followeth . nishohkou i am dead in sin , oh! that my sins might die , for they cannot give life , because they be dead : before i prayed to god , i did commit all filthynesse , i prayed to many gods , i was proud , full of lusts , adulteries , and all others sins , and therefore this is my first confession , that god is mercifull , and i am a sinner , for god have given unto me instruction and causeth me to pray unto god , but i only pray words ; when i prayed , i somtimes wondered , and thought true it is that god made the world , and me : and then i thought i knew god , because i saw these his works , and then i was glad somtimes , and gave thanks ; yet presently again i did not rejoyce in it . again somtimes i thought , now i do wel because i pray , and work not on the sabbath daies , but come to the meetings , and hear the word of god : but afterward again , i thought i do not wel , because true it is , that yet i do not truly pray ; for now i see i sin when i pray , because there is nothing but sin in my mouth , or hand , or heart , and all sins are there , for of these my sins my heart is full , because my heart doth sometimes lust , and steal , and the like . again , i was not only proud before i prayed , but now i am proud . again , sometimes my heart is humbled , and then i pray , oh god have mercy on me , and pardon these my sins ; yet sometimes i know not whether god did either hear my prayer , or pardon my sins . again , afterwards i thought i had greatly sinned , because i heard of the good way of praying unto god , but i do wickedly because i pray not truly , yea , sometimes i have much ado to pray with my mouth , and therfore i sin . i heard of that good way , to keep the sabbath , and not to work on that day , and i did so : but yet again i sinned in it , because i did not reverence the word of god ; yea , and sometimes i thought that working on the sabbath was no great matter . again , i heard it was a good way to come to the meetings , and hear the word of god , and i desired to do it ; but in this also i sinned , because i did not truly hear : yea , sometimes i thought it no great matter if i heard not , and cared not to come to hear , and still i so sinned . then i thought god was angry , because i have greatly sinned ; desiring to do well , and yet again to sin . when i desired to do well , then i sinned , and in all things i sinned . but afterward i was angry with my self , and thought i will not sin again ; and what god saith , is good , but i am sinful because i have done all these evils . again , sometimes my heart is humbled , and then i repent , and say , oh god and jesus christ , have mercy on me , and pardon my sins . now i desire truly to pray ; now i desire to reverence the word every sabbath day : now i desire to hear the word of god truly ; now i desire to bend my heart to pray , and it may be god will hear me : but quickly after a temptation cometh to my heart , and i did not desire it . again , sometimes i did think , true it is i can do nothing of my self , but jesus christ must have mercy on me , because christ hath done for me all gods commandements and good works , therfore my heart saith , oh jesus give me desires after thee : sometimes i think it is true , i have greatly sinned against god , but great are his mercies : sometimes i hear the word on the sabbath day , and he giveth it me , [ that is , maketh it my own ] sometimes i say the great and mighty god is in heaven , but these are but words , because i do not fear this great and mighty god ; and i sometimes regard not gods word , and make it of none effect , because i do not that which is good , but commit sin : sometimes i say i know christ , because i know he died for us , and hath redeemed us , and procured pardon for us : yet again i say i sin , because i beleeve not christ , for that only is right to beleeve in christ , and do what he saith ; but i think i do this in vain , because i yet do not truly beleeve in jesus christ , nor do what he commandeth , and therefore my heart plays the hypocrite ; and now i know what is hypocrisie , namely , when i know what i should do , and yet do it not . sometimes i think i am like unto satan , because i do al these sins , and sin in all things i do ; if i pray i sin , if i keep sabbath i sin , if i hear gods word i sin , therefore i am like the devil . now i know i deserve to go to hell , because all these sins i have committed : then my heart is troubled , and i say , oh god and christ pardon all my sin , for i cannot pardon my sins my self ; for the first man brought sin into the world , and therfore i am sinful , therfore i pray thee o lord pardon all the sins which i have done . again , sometimes my heart is humbled , and i desire to fear god , because he is a great god , and i desire to do what he saith , and now i desire to do the right way , and now i desire to beleeve jesus christ ; and sometimes i think it may be god will hear me , it may be he will pardon me , yet again i think i cannot be ashamed of sin ; but now i am ashamed of all my sins , and my heart is broken , and all these my sins i cast off , and take heed of : yet then again i sometimes say to god , i cannot my self be humbled , or break my heart , or cast off sin , but i pray thee o jesus help me to do it . again , sometimes i confess this is true , i cannot redeem my self , nor deliver my self , because of all these my many sins ; truly , full is my heart of sin in every thing , all my thoughts , my words , my looks , my works are full of sin ; true 〈◊〉 therefore i cannot deliver my self from sin ; oh redeem thou my soul from hel and torment , for i like not to do it with my own hand , therfore i desire jesus christ , that i may delight in him ; take thou me and my soul , because thou hast done gods word , and all good works for me , and hast procured pardon for all my sins , and hast prepared pardon in heaven , therfore i desire , oh i desire pardon : but i somtimes think christ doth not delight in me because i do much play the hypocrite , but if i truly beleeve then he will pardon , but true faith i cannot work ; oh jesus christ help me , and give it me . another who made confession , is named magus ; which is as followeth : heretofore i beleeved not , that god made the world , but i thought the world was of it self , and all people grew up in the world of themselves . when any bid me pray to god , i said i cannot , and none of our rulers beleeve or pray to god ; yet i went about to seek how to pray to god . i told the wise men , i seek how to pray to god , and all of them could not find how to pray to god . afterward i had a desire to pray god , lest i should lose my soul , but my heart run away , and i could not find how to pray to god , and therefore i thought of going away ; yet i also thought if i do go away , i shall lose my ground . but after this i heard of gods anger against me , and i beleeved it ; for god made the first man good , and told him if he did well he should live , and this day i beleeve all men should do so : and then i thought i will pray as long as i live , and i will labor , because gods promise is , if we labor we shall eat ; and i see that that is a true word ; for they that do labor do eat [ that is , have wherewith to be fed ] i see that sin alwaies hath continued , from the beginning of the world . i beleeve that word which god told eve , that in sorrow she should bring forth children , and i see it dayly to be true . i beleeve that word of god , that sin brings misery , and all shall die , because by sin , we break all the commands of god : i have been full of lusts , and thefts , &c. all my life , and all the time i have lived . i have done contrary to the command of god . and i am now grieved , now i hear of all my sins : i beleeve christ doth convert me to god , and he calleth children , and old men , and all men to turn unto god , and from their sins ; he calleth to sorrow and repentance , and ever to beleeve in christ ; and who ever doth this , shall be ever blessed in heaven ; but if he do it not , he perisheth : if he turn not from sin , dying , he shall go to hell for ever . i think also , that so long as i live , god doth give me life . i beleeve that we ought to gather into a church , to serve god as long as we live . but i do not know whether yet god hath pardoned my sins , or not ; but i know christ , and i know he hath already dyed for me , because i cannot redeem my self . another who made confession , was named poquanum ; which was as followeth . his first confession . a great while ago the english would tell me of god but i hated it , and would go out of doors , when they so spake unto me , and i murmured at it . when the indians first prayed to god , i did not think there was a god , or that the bible was gods book , but that wise men made it : when some prayed to god , i went with them , but i did not know god . afterward my mind was changed thus far , that i desired to be wise , as others were , but yet i knew nothing of god ; yea , after i prayed to god . i still did think there was no god . afterward i found this in my heart , that we pray to god for our souls , then i thought all my praying was nothing , because i was so foolish that i never thought of dying : but after , i learned , that all must die , and good mens souls go to heaven ; and then i thought of dying , and of my soul : but then i thought we prayed for nothing but that our souls might go to heaven ; i knew nothing of christ . but after , when the children were catechised , and taught the ten commandements , i hearkned , and by them i came to know that there was a god , and that there was sin against god ; and hereby god made me to see all my sins , both before i prayed to god , and since ; and i saw gods anger against me for my sins , before , and since i prayed , because sometimes i came not to the meeting ; brake my word , regarded not my children , and i see sin in me , and therfore i do greatly fear gods anger . poquanum ; his second confession was as followeth : before i prayed unto god , i greatly sinned , i prayed to many gods , and used panwaning , adultery , lust , lying , and al other sins , and many were my sins , evil thoughts , evil words , and nothing else but evil , hatred , and pride , and all sins against god , coveting other mens goods ; when i stole , i added lying to it when i had done ; i was very proud , i much hatred many men , and loved them not because i was angry with them ; and thus i did every day : i would slander my neighbors , great was my pride , i was dayly angry with my neighbors , my heart was alwaies full of such waies . when the english said , pray to god , i cared not for god , because i loved sin , nor did i desire that god should forgive my sin . afterward i heard the word , that if we truly pray , mourn for sin , cast off sin ; desire to hear the word , and beleeve in christ , god will then pardon , and when he dieth christ will lead him to heaven : i much rejoyced to hear of this pardon , but i must truly beleeve in christ , else i shal not have pardon ; and first i thought god will not pardon me , because i still sinned . but afterward i heard , that though we should pray as long as we live , and never sin more , yet that was of no value ; but we must beleeve in christ , else there is no pardon ; and this i rejoyced at . another who made confession , is named nookau , which is as followeth . his first confession . five years ago , before i prayed i was sick , i thought i should die ; at which i was much troubled , and knew not what to do ; then i thought , if there be a god above , and he give life again , then i shall beleeve there is a god above , and god did give me life : and after that i took up praying to god . now i beleeve god , one god that made all the world , and governeth it , yet this i only said with my mouth , i did not truly beleeve it in my heart . then i understood , that god made the first man good , and like god , but he sinned , and we have lost gods image , and are like the devil , and deserve hell and damnation : this i now know , and see that i am foolish , and sometime think not of god in an whol day , sometime i do think of god every day ; sometime my heart greatly sinneth , then sometime i presently fear , but again sometimes i am slow to fear ; i am very foolish because i do not understand the word , but break the word of god . i beleeve the catechism we learn to be according to the word of god ; but the writings of the bible are the very words of god , and the spirit of god is the word , and that god giveth all things that are good : i now see my sins before i prayed unto god , and since , and i beleeve that god seeth them all : and my heart feareth , because i do not yet forsake my sins , and i think god will not forgive me : because my heart is wicked ; i know not when christ forgiveth my sins , others may know , but i desire that my sins may be pardoned for christ his sake . nookau , his second confession . before i prayed to god , i greatly sinned every day , i was proud , and lived in adultery , lying , &c. and my heart alwaies full of evil thoughts , and when the english would instruct me , i then thought my waies evil , but the business of praying to god , good ; then i did think , if i could first understand , then i would pray to god , and i was glad to hear of any that did pray to god . when i heard that word at cohannet , who ever lacketh wisdom , let him ask it of god ; let fools pray to god , and he will give them wisdom : i thought i was a fool , and i beleeved that word of god . i heard that word of the dry bones , god bid them hear , and promised to put flesh , and sinews , and skin upon them , and make them live ; therefore i desired to hear , because i beleeved the dry bones , and that i was one that did not know god : afterward i was glad of praying to god . sometimes i beleeved not god , and god will not look on such , alwaies i thought god will not forgive me . i wondred at all that prayed to god , because i thought god had given them wisdom : then i thought i am glad i pray to god . sometime my heart is broken because i shall lose all in this world , and lose my soul also , because i beleeve not , for all the words of god are true which he hath taught me . now this day i think i will confess the truth ; because i have sinned , i want jesus christ : and i will truly confess god , because of that word of christ , he that confesseth me before men , him will i confess before my father : i wonder at this instruction , i desire to confess my heart . another who made his confession is named antony , upon whom the lord was pleased the last winter to lay an heavy stroke ; for he and another indian being at work sawing of board , and finishing the peece , they laid it so short , and the rowl not so stedfast , insomuch that this man being in the pit directing to lay the piece , and the other above ordering thereof , it slipped down into the pit upon this mans head , brake his neather chap in two , and cracked his skull , insomuch that he was taken up half dead , and almost strangled with blood ; and being the last day of the week at night i had no word until the sabbath day , then i presently sent a chyrurgion , who took a discreet order with him ; and god so blessed his indeavors , as that he is now well again , blessed be the lord : and whereas i did fear that such a blow in their labor might discourage them from labor , i have found it by gods blessing otherwise ; yea , this man hath performed a great part of the sawing of our meeting-house , and is now fawing upon the school-house , and his recovery is an establishment of them to go on ; yea , and god blessed this blow , to help on the work of grace in his soul ; as you shall see in his confession , which followeth . before i prayed to god i alwaies committed sin , but i do not know all my sins , i know but a little of the sins i have committed , therefore i thought i could not pray to god , because i knew not al my sins before i prayed to god , and since i heard of praying to god : formerly when the english did bid me pray unto god i hated it , and would go out of their houses , when they spake of such things to me . i had no delight to hear any thing of gods word , but in every thing i sinned ; in my speeches i sinned , and every day i broke the commands of god . after i heard of praying to god , that waban and my two brothers prayed to god , yet then i desired it not , but did think of running away ; yet i feared if i did run away some wicked men would kill me , but i did not fear god . after when you said unto me , pray , my heart thought , i will pray ; yet again i thought , i cannot pray with my heart , and no matter for praying with words only : but when i did pray , i saw more of my sins ; yet i did but only see them , i could not be aware of them , but still i did commit them : and after i prayed to god , i was still full of lust , and then a little i feared . sometimes i was sick , and then i thought god was angry , and then i saw that i did commit all sins : then one of my brothers died , and then my heart was broken , and after him another friend , and again my heart was broken : and yet after all this i broke my praying to god , and put away god , and then i thought i shall never pray to god : but after this i was afraid of the lord , because i alwaies broke my praying to god , and then my heart said , god doth nor hear my prayer . when i was sick , and recovered again , i thought then that god was merciful unto me . hearing that word of god , if you hear the word of god , and be forgetful hearers , you sin against god ; then i thought god will not pardon such a sinner as i , who dayly did so , and broke my praying to god . when i heard the commandements , i desired to learn them , and other points of catechism , but my desires were but small , and i soon lost it , because i did not desire to beleeve : then sometimes i feared gods anger because of al my sins ; i heard the word and understood only this word , all you that hear this day , it may be you shall quickly die , and then i quickly saw that god was very angry with me . then god brake my head , and by that i saw gods anger ; and then i thought that the true god in heaven is angry with me for my sin , even for al my sins , which every day i live , i do . when i was almost dead , some body bid me now beleeve , because it may be i shal quickly die , and i thought i did beleeve , but i did not know right beleeving in christ : then i prayed unto god to restore my health . then i beleeved that word , that we must shortly appear before jesus christ ; then i did greatly fear lest if i beleeved not , i should perish for ever . when i was neer death , i prayed unto god , oh lord give me life , and i will pray to god so long as i live , and i said , i will give my self , soul , and body to christ : after this , god gave me health , and then i thought , truly , god in heaven is merciful ; then i much grieved , that i knew so little of gods word . and now sometimes i am angry , and then i fear because i know god seeth it : and i fear , because i promised god when i was almost dead , that if he giveth me life , i will pray so long as i live ; i fear lest i should break this promise to god . now i desire the pardon of all my sins , and i beg faith in christ , and i desire to live unto god , so long as i live ; i cannot my self get pardon , but i dayly commit sin , and break gods word , but i look to christ for pardon . another who made his confession is named owussumag ; which is as followeth : when i first heard that waban prayed to god , and after that many more prayed . i first feared praying to god , and instruction , and i hated instruction by the word of god , and alwaies i laughed at them who prayed to god ; and i alwaies thought i will yet more commit sin : and i went into the country , and there i acted much lust , adultry , and the like , and all my neighbors , we did together seek after wickedness , and every day i was proud , and of high or open eyes . when some of my neighbors began to pray , i went away into the country , but i could find no place where i was beloved . then i heard , that when beleevers die , they go to heaven , when sinners die they go to hel ; and my heart considered , what good will it be if my soul go to heaven ? but two years ago , i began to think , i had sinned against god ; and then somtimes i feared , yet again sinned ; but my fear was of man , not of god : then ever my heart said i should be better , if i would pray to god , and somtimes i beleeved that which i was taught , yet again , last year , i sought to go away afar off , but i could think of no place , but i should be in danger to be killed . then again i much remembred my sins : and again i thought , what will become of me , if i die in my sins ? and then i thought it was good for me to pray unto god so long as i live ; and then my heart turned to praying unto god , and i did pray , and my heart feared when i heard the word read and taught , and i was glad to hear the word of god ; and then i purposed to pray as long as i live . sometime i did dayly see my sins , and fear , for i cannot get pardon , only in jesus christ . then i heard that word , i thank thee oh heavenly father , that thou hast revealed these things to babes ; and that word , that we must forgive each other : then i saw that i beleeved not one word from christ , not any word of god ; and dayly my heart wept , that christ might pardon all my sins against god and christ : and now unto this day my heart saith ▪ i desire the good waies of praying to god , but i cannot know them of my self , but jesus christ must teach me them . when i heard , that only christ must teach me them . when i heard , that only christ must pardon our sins , and that for christ god will pardon our sins , this day i rejoyce to hear that word of god , and all that christ hath taught me : and now i purpose , that while i live , i will pray unto god , and jesus christ only : and this day i see i cannot know how to find good thoughts ; but this day i desire pardon for all my sins , and to cast them away . another who made confession , is named ephraim , his indian name i have forgotten . it is as followeth : all the daies i have lived , i have been in a poor foolish condition , i cannot tell all my sins , all my great sins , i do not see them . when i first heard of praying to god , i could not sleep quietly , i was so troubled , ever i thought i would forsake the place because of praying to god , my life hath been like as if i had been a mad man . last yeer i thought i would leave all my sins , yet i see i do not leave off sinning to this day ; i now think i shall never be able to forsake my sins . i think sometimes the word of god is false , yet i see there is no giving over that i might follow sin , i must pray to god ; i do not truly in my heart repent , and i think that god wil not forgive me my sins ; every day my heart sinneth , and how will christ forgive such an one ? i pray but outwardly with my mouth , not with my heart ; i cannot of my self obtain pardon of my sins ▪ i cannot tell all the sins that i have done if i should tell you an whol day together : i do every morning desire that my sins may be pardoned by jesus christ ; this my heart saith , but yet i fear i cannot forsake my sins , because i cannot see all my sins : i hear , that if we repent and beleeve in christ , all our sins shall be pardoned , therefore i desire to leave off my sins . this poor publican was the l●st which made his confession before i read them unto the elders , and the last of them i shall now publish . i will shut up these confessions with the confession ( if i may so call it ) or rather with the expression , and manifestation of saith , by two little infants , of two yeers old , and upward , under three yeers of age when the died and departed out of this world . the story is this , this spring , in the beginning of the yeer , . the lord was pleased to afflict sundry of our praying indians with that grievous disease of the bloody-flux , whereof some with great torments in their bowels died ; among which were two little children of the age above-said , and at that time both in one house , being together taken with that disease . the first of these children in the extremities of its torments , lay crying to god in these words , god and jesus christ , god and jesus christ help me ; and when they gave it any thing to eat , it would greedily take it ( as it is usual at the approach of death ) but first it would cry to god , oh god and jesus christ , bless it , and then it would take it : and in this manner it lay calling upon god and jesus christ untill it died : the mother of this child also died of that disease , at that time . the father of the child told me this story , with great wonderment at the grace of god , in teaching his child so to call upon god . the name of the father is nishohkou , whose confession you have before . three or four daies after , another child in the same house , sick of the same disease , was ( by a divine hand doubtless ) sensible of the approach of death , ( an unusual thing at that age ) and called to its father , and said , father , i am going to god , several times repeating it , i am going to god ▪ the mother ( as other mothers use to do ) had made for the child a little basket , a little spoon , and a little tray : these things the child was wont to be greatly delighted withal ( as all children will ) therefore in the extremity of the torments , they set those things before it , a little to divert the mind , and cheer the spirit : but now , the child takes the basket , and puts it away , and said , i will leave my basket behind me , for i am going to god , i will leave my spoon and tray behind me ( putting them away ) for i am going to god : and with these kind of expressions , the same night , finished its course , and died . the father of this child is named robin speen , whose confessions you have before , and in one of them he maketh mention of this child that died in faith . when he related this story to me , he said , he could not tell whether the sorrow for the death of his child , or the joy for its faith were greater , when it died . these examples are a testimony , that they teach their children the knowledg and fear of god , whom they now call upon ; and also that the spirit of god co-worketh with their instructions , who teacheth by man , more than man is able to do . i have now finished all that i purpose to publish at this time ; the lord give them acceptance in the hearts of his saints , to engage them the more to pray for them ; and oh! that their judgings of themselves , and breathings after christ , might move others ( that have more means than they have , but as yet regard it not ) to do the like , and much more abundantly . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- * psalm , . . an heart-melting exhortation together with a cordiall consolation presented in a letter from new-england to their dear countrymen of lancashire : which may as well concern all others in these suffering times / by richard mather ... and william tompson ... mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing m ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an heart-melting exhortation together with a cordiall consolation presented in a letter from new-england to their dear countrymen of lancashire : which may as well concern all others in these suffering times / by richard mather ... and william tompson ... mather, richard, - . tompson, william, d. . [ ], , p. printed by a.m. for i. rothwell ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. eng christian life -- early works to . consolation -- early works to . a r (wing m ). civilwar no an heart-melting exhortation together with a cordiall consolation presented in a letter from new-england to their dear countrymen of lancash mather, richard c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an heart-melting exhortation together with a cordiall consolation . presented in a letter from new-england , to their dear countreymen of lancashire . which may as well concern all others in these suffering times . by richard mathe● teacher of the church at dorchester and william tompson pastor of the church at brain●●y in new england . hebrews ● . . exhort one another daily whilest 〈◊〉 is called to day . thessalonians . . comfort the feeble-minded , support the weak . london , printed by a. m. for i rothwell , at the sun and fountain in pauls-church yard , near the little north door . . to all those that professe the name and true religion of jesus christ in lancashire ; specially to the inhabitants of toxteth near liverpool , of newton , winwick , eccleston n●●r croston ▪ of much-woolton , and the places thereabouts . richard mather and william tompson wish mercy and grace , truth and peace , from god the father , through our lord iesus christ . christian countreymen , and dear friends , that which the apostle paul professeth of himself concerning the nation of the jews , that his hearts desire and praier unto god for them was , that they might be saved : the same may we professe of our selves concerning you . and because at thus many hundred and some thousand miles distance , we cannot make known our true and great desire after you● salvation by word of mouth , therefore we are willing to testifie the same by a few lines in writing , humbly desiring that for that purpose a word or two of christian exhortation in this way of a letter , may not be unwelcome to any of you , but graciously blessed by the god of heaven unto you all , to those good ends which we intend therein . indeed we could have wished ( had it been the will of god ) that as we were born amongst you , and for some years have been preachers of the everlasting gospel in your coasts ( though the weakest for such a work , and the most unworthy of thousands we do acknowledge ) so we might also have continued to live and to die together . for your christian communion as long as we could enjoy the same , whether in publike assemblies or private families was very dear unto us : and to this day in our conferences one with the other , we do often revive the remembrance thereof with much comfort of heart . and when the iniquity of the times was grown to such an height , that amongst others , far more eminent lights , our selves also must be put under a bushell , and might not be permitted in any publike employment , to seek the salvation of your souls ; yet god knows , and many amongst you , we doubt not , do remember how we could not leave your congregations , nor depart out of your coasts , without much inward affection of heart and many tears , because you were dear unto us . and when that saying of the apostle , act. . . did come into our mindes ( as it came into our mindes very often ) you will scarcely beleeve how our hearts were affected at the remembrance thereof ; considering with how little variation those words of his unto those ephesians might be applied to our condition and yours at that time , when we did plainly perceive that most of you amongst whom we had gone preaching the kingdom of god , in all likelihood should see our faces no more : which was unto us no small grief ; neverthelesse though we thus speak concerning our hearty affection towards you ( which was and is as much as we pretend , and very cordial in christ jesus ) yet we would not be so understood , as if we were weary of our present place and portion ; for we do not remember that since our coming into this countrey ( and the one of us hath been here above the space of ten years , and the other not much less then nine ) that of all this time we have had one repenting thought of this transmigration of ours . true it is , we were most unwilling you may be sure to turn our backs upon our dear native countrey , and upon your selves in many respects . but those things which the wisdome and will of god had determined before , concerning our transportation into these western parts of the world , he hath thus fulfilled : and blessed be his name for the same ; for whatever others say or think of new-england , we for our parts must both think and say as long as we have a day to live , that great was the goodnesse of our god , that ever he was pleased to bring us hither . for considering what light of truth doth here plenteously and clearly shine forth , what churches are here gathered and planted , with what liberty ▪ and purity the ordinances of christ jesus are here administred , by what magistrates civill justice is here dispensed , and the common-wealth governed , how holinesse and righteousnesse is countenanced and encouraged , and all known impiety and iniquity prosecuted to condign punishment , both in church and common-wealth , in a word , considering what means of grace and glory are here plentifully afforded , and peaceably enjoied , we must therefore needs say , that if it be not our own fault , however it go with others , and however it hath been with us in times past , we may now be happy and blessed in christ jesus , both in this and in another world . and indeed we cannot but stand amazed at the free grace of god , and wonder with great admiration at that wise , and gracious , and holy dispensation of divine providence , whereby it comes to passe that such unworthy ones as we be , must be here in a land of peace , to enjoy the many good blessings of god , both for earth and heaven in quiet habitations , when in the mean time it fares full ill , god knows , with the land of our nativity , and with many thousands therein far better then our selves , whom the lord hath left after all their other pressures , under which they have formerly groaned , now at last , to see the most dolefull daies that they have ever seen in england , because that formerly-flourishing kingdom is now wofully at warre within it self , and that sore plague of the devouring sword ( as sore an one as any of the four , which are thus called by the holy ghost , ezek. . . ) hath already devoured much english flesh , and drunk much english bloud ; many hundreds and thousands of all ranks and degrees , both great and small , since these warres begun , having already lost their lives , and ended their daiet in these grievous nationall calamities , and ( god knows ) how many more may shortly do the like , because for ought we can hear the wrath of the lord is not yet turned away , but his hand is stretched out still . in regard whereof we may take up the complaint of the prophet , and say , oh that our heads were water , and our eyes were fountains of tears , that we might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of our people . for indeed we desire to bewail the sorrows , distractions and distresses of that dear countrey where we were born , and wish we had hearts to do it more compassionately and effectually then these dull and dry spirits of ours can yet attain unto ; though we hope it is not our distance for the space of three thousand miles from that land , nor our absence from thence for the space of nine or ten years , nor all the water that in all this time hath flown in this great atlantick ocean between england and us , that hath or ever shall wash away the thought and remembrance of england , and of gods people therein out of our hearts , but that we shall preferre the comfort , peace , and prosperity of it and them , before our chief joys . and being thus minded , we hope you will give us leave out of that hearty affection and good will which we bear unto our nation , and more abundantly to you-ward , to commend unto you our dear countreymen a few words of christian counsell and advice , concerning some things which we deem conducible to your eternall comfort and salvation , which we so heartily long after : and which advice is none other but the very same which we would wish to be given to ourselves , if our soul were in your souls stead . you have seen ( right dearly beloved ) how the great judge of the world , and king of the nations , by a sore and long continuing warrre , for the space of seven or eight and twenty years together , or thereabouts , hath been afflicting the germane nation for their sinnes : and how of late time he hath brought the like judgement even to your doors , in that distressed if not destroied kingdome of ireland : and now you plainly see also that he will bear with england no longer , but they also must drink of the same cup of bloud , whereof others have so deeply drunk before . in which and other kingdomes and countries that might be named , the dispensation of the almighty is and hath been such , as if he were resolved by fire and by sword to plead with all flesh , and that the slain of the lord shall be many . and we doubt not but many of you do well know the saying that is written , that when the judgements of god are in the earth , the inhabitants of the world shall learn righteousnesse . yea truly , though his judgements were not upon our selves , but only upon others , yet he would have us learn righteousnesse thereby , or otherwise it will be an aggravation of our iniquity and impenitency , and a provocation of the lords greater displeasure ; as it was against iudah , when the lord saw that for all the causes whereby backsliding israel committed adultery , and he had put her away , and given her a bill of divorce , yet her treacherous sister iudah feared not , but went and plaied the harlot also . and belshazzar is sharply reproved and plagued by the lord , because he had not learned righteousnesse by all the judgements which had befallen nebuchadnezzar his father , whereof he his sonne was not ignorant . thy father nebuchadnezzar ( saith the prophet ) when his heart was lifted up , and his minde hardned in pride , was deposed from his kingly throne , and they took his glory from him , and he was driven from the sonnes of men , and turned out among wilde beasts , and thou his sonne ( o belshazzar ) hast not humbled thine heart , though thou knewest all this . whereby we see it is very much displeasing to the lord , and dangerous unto our selves , if we see and know the judgements of god upon others because of their sinnes , and do not humble our selves , and turn from our iniquities , and fear before him that is so dreadfull and holy a god , and terrible , though righteous in his doings unto the sinfull sons of men . but if the calamities upon others should thus strike all our hearts with a holy fear in regard of our selves , how much more ought this fruit to be found in us , when the judgements of god do fall upon our own backs ? surely at such a time the lord considereth what courses he hath taken with a people for their amendment , and is not a little displeased if his corrections upon them be in vain : as you may reade at large , am. . . &c. i have sent famine amongst you ( saith the lord ) and yet you have not turned unto me : i have sent drought amongst you , and yet you have not turned unto me : i have sent blasting and mildew , i have sent pestilence amongst you , after the manner of aegypt , and other judgements more there mentioned , and yet ye have not turned unto me . so that the lord takes an account what corrections he hath corrected men withall , and what amendment hath been wrought thereby , and if it be otherwise he is very much displeased that men should be so incorrigible , yea , in such case the lord will either pursue such persons and people with more and sorer judgements , yea , seven times and seven times more judgements , and one seven after another . till their uncircumcised hearts be humbled ; or else he will utterly leave them , and give them up , as those whose case is incurable , and their condition desperate . for so we reade , isa. . . wherefore should you be smitten any more ? for ye fall away more and more : which condition is exceeding fearfull and lamentable : but by all this you may see that when the judgements of the lord are in the earth , whether upon our selves or others , they that see them , or feel them , or hear tell of them , ought to learn righteousnesse thereby , or otherwise it is like to be worse for them . sith therefore you have known the judgements of god which he hath brought upon germany for many years together , and upon ireland and england of late times : god would be very angry if you should remain impenitent , unhumbled , and unreformed , though you have known all this . wherefore ( dear friends ) we beseech you , let our advice and counsel be acceptable to you , which yet is not our counsel but the lords , that every man would now search and try his waies , and turn again to the lord . let every man now call himself unto a strict examination , for all the course of his life , and smite upon his thigh , and say , what have i done ; yea , let every man now learn to be vile in his own eyes , to abhorre himself , and to repent in dust and ashes ; judging himself before the lord with sorrow and shame for all his abominations , and pouring out from a broken and contrite heart , free , full and plain confessions of the same ; yea , now let every man cry mightily unto god , for mercy and forgivenesse in the bloud of the redeemer christ jesus , and turn to the lord from all the evill that is in his heart or hands , that so all the judgements of god that are in the earth , may not be in vain unto you , and your sinne and misery encreased thereby , but that by them your iniquity may be purged , and this may be the sweet and blessed fruit thereof , even the taking away of your sin . but when the jews were exhorted by the prophet malachy to turn unto the lord , with a promise that he would then return unto them , they made him this answer , wherein should we return ? plainly declaring thereby , that they knew but little that was amisse in themselves , whereof they should repent , or wherein they had need to be reformed . and therefore lest there should be any soul amongst you , that should entertain this exhortation of ours in the like manner , and be or pretend to be ignorant whereof they should repent , give us leave therefore as the prophet must , shew the people their transgressions , and the house of iacob their sinnes , and another prophet is bidden to cause ierusalem to know her abominations . give us leave ( we beseech you ) after their example , to instance in some principall sinnes which were very common in lancashire when we were there , and which we fear are much continued in that countrey unto this very day , and therefore had need to be repented of . and first of all , we may mention that generall sinne of prophanenesse or atheism , and disrespect of all religion , when multitudes of men and women from one end of the countrey to another , have so demeaned themselves , as if they had been born for no other end but to serve themselves , and their own lusts , the lusts of the flesh , the lusts of the eye , and the pride of life , and so have spent their daies as if there had been nothing else for them to do , or to look after , but to eat and to drink , ●o sleep and to play , to build and to plant , to buy and to sell , to marry and to give in marriage , and the like ; but with as much irregiousnesse and prophanenesse of heart in all these things , and with as much neglect of the glory of god , and the salvation of their souls , and the means thereof , as if there had been no god to be served or acknowledged , or as if themselves had had no souls to be saved . it is but too apparent , ( the lord knows ) how the glorious and holy name of god hath been impiously prophaned and blasphemed in that county by multitudes of vain and wicked oaths , in the mouths of gentlemen and mean men too , yea , and very children ; how the holy sabbaths of god which he hath commanded to be sanctified for ever , and for that end hath bid us remember the same , have been greatly prophaned and polluted , not only by neglect of publick and private worship , whereby the same should have been sanctified , but also by the contrary prophane and impious practices in stead thereof , such as are carding , dicing , drinking , bowling , bear-baiting , shooting , piping , dancing at greens , ales , may-poles , and such like . and when the licence for sports and recreations upon the sabbath , came forth from houghton-tower , ( to the lasting shame and infamy of the place and county where such an unhappy birth was brought forth ) oh how gladly was the same entertained and embraced by multitudes of people in that countrey ! and how proudly did they bear up themselves upon the authority of the same , to the confronting and defiance of the faithfull ministers of god , that would not , nor could not consent to such prophanations , but by authority of the th commandement of god did bear witnesse against the same . it is also a further testimony of this spirit of prophanenesse that now we are speaking of , that duties of religion have been so exceedingly neglected in private families , children and servants being not at all instructed and catechized , yea , many families having not a bible in them , morning and evening praier being never used , nor any blessing upon the creatures desired of god , when men have gone unto their meals , all directly contrary to the expresse word of god , deut. . , ▪ eph. , . tim. . , . and the commended examples of david . ioshuah , cornelius , abraham , and such like servants of god . but if the saying of christ our saviour be true , as it cannot but be most true , that they that are the children of abraham will do the works of abraham , surely , then the neglect of family-duties ( for the practice whereof abraham is so much commended ) doth testifie to the faces of many people that they are no children of abraham , neither children of his flesh , nor children of his faith ; and whose children they then are you may all judge ; yea , such hath been the impiety of many persons , that such as have made some conscience of gods holy name , and service , and sabbaths , and have shewed any care to walk with god in the way that is called holy , them they have greatly hated , despised , derided , slandered , and other waies evill entreated and persecuted , and all because they seemed to be more holy then themselves . wherefore to make an end of this particular , if there be any soul among you , whether man or woman , whether young or old , whether great or small , that stands culpable of this prophanenesse and ungodlinesse , and that is a despiser and hater , or so much as a carelesse neglecter of god , and the holy things of god , carelesse of gods word and the knowledge of it , of his sabbaths and the sanctifying thereof , and of the christian duties of gods holy worship in publike assemblies , and in private families , yea , carelesse of walking with god in holines for his own particular , but walks in his own lusts of swearing , whoredome , drunkennes , or any other . let such an one be exhorted to repent ; yea , as he tendreth his own eternall comfort be earnestly entreated to repent ; yea , charged and commanded in the name of god the father , and the lord jesus christ , to repent of all this his wickednesse and turn unto the lord . for the word is gone out of gods mouth , and shall not be recalled , but must stand for ever : that without holines no man shall see the lord , except it be as a judge against all such ungodly sinners , but never see god to his comfort in this or in another world . oh consider this therefore all ye that forget god , lest he tear you in pieces , and there be no deliverer : yea , consider it seriously and beleeve it of a truth , for the lord hath spoken it , that neither whoremongers nor adulterers , nor drunkards , nor any that walk in such waies and works of the flesh , shall have any inheritance in the kingdome of god . be assured of it , for the day is coming when you will finde it most true , that where there is no holy knowledge of god in the minde , no change of the heart from its former prophanenesse and uncleannesse , and no purity and sanctity of the affections and desires , no reformation and sanctification of the life and conversation , such a man so continuing is most certainly a man of death , prepared against the day of slaughter , and shall immediatly drop down without all hope of recovery into hell , as soon as death shall strike him to the ground . oh then whosoever you are that reade or hear these words , humble your selves for all your iniquities , and turn unto the lord , with fasting and weeping and with mourning : for he is gracious and mercifull , slow to anger , and of great goodnesse , and repenteth of the evill : cast away all your transgressions , and so iniquity shall not be your ruine , for the lord hath said and sworn , that as he liveth he taketh no pleasure in the death of the wicked , but rather that he turn from his way and live ; turn you , turn you , wherefore will you die ? the very angels of heaven will be glad at the day of your conversion . but if you harden your hearts , and refuse to hearken to the gracious call of the lord , your damnation is just , your bloud will be upon your own heads : you have been warned and warned again and again , by many worthy ministers and messengers of god , that have preached in your congregations ; and amongst others you have been warned heretofore by us in preaching , and now by us in writing . but besides this sinne of prophanenesse and open ungodlinesse , there is another evill no lesse dangerous , which is often found amongst them that professe more purity and reformation of life , and that is , when men blesse themselves in their own righteousnesse , and think their condition safe and good , meerly because of some legall reformation , without any feeling of their need of christ , any high prizing of him , any earnest longing for him , any true relying or resting on him . that it is incident to professors to offend in this kinde , is plain , by that which is written of the pharisees , that they trusted in themselves , that they were righteous , and despised others , and accordingly one of them is brought in boasting of himself before god , that he was not like other men , he was no extortioner , no adulterer , no unjust person , nor like that publican , but he fasted twice a week ; he gave tithes of all that he possessed , and the like . and it is said of the nation of the jews generally , that they being ignorant of the righteousnesse of god , and going about to establish their own righteousnesse , did not subject themselves to the righteousnesse of god . which place doth also shew the dangerous condition of all such justitiaries in this respect , that being so full of their own righteousnesse , they submit not themselves to the righteousnesse of god , nor unto christ jesus who is the end of the law , for righteousnesse to every one that beleeves . but of this you may be sure , that whatever a mans righteousness may be , unlesse he were one that had never sinned , he hath nothing in him that is of any worth for the present justification of his person , nor for the everlasting salvation of his soul . for the text is plain , that in gods sight there is no flesh living that can be justified . psal. . . and therefore such holy men as david , daniel , nehemiah , paul , and others , durst not stand to be tried and justified that way ( psal. . . dan. . . neh. . . phil. . . ) but have been glad to fly for this matter only to the free mercy and grace of god , and the righteousnesse of christ jesus which is by faith , and you will finde that it will be best for you to do the like . it may be you will say , we have no need to be told of this , for we are not papists to hold justification by works , but do beleeve that justification is by faith only without the works of the law . neverthelesse we cannot think it needlesse for men to be put in minde of this matter , i partly because there are many ( the lord knows ) in that dear countrey of ours , who discover themselves to be deeply tainted with this as well as other points of popery ; and partly because this popery , this pride and self-love is naturall to all the sons of men , being a part of that originall sinne which is common to all as well as to those that make direct profession of popery ; and therefore your selves , unlesse you were free from all originall corruption , are in danger of this relying upon self-righteousnesse as well as papists ; nay we fear ( be it spoken without offence ) that there are sundry amongst you that do so rely indeed , and though they be not outwardly culpable in respect of popery and prophanenesse , but professe a stricter and purer way , yet in very truth are in no better condition to god-ward then others are as being utterly without part and portion in christ jesus . for the manifesting whereof , we hope you will easily grant , that whoever hath no more religion in him , but what might have been attained if christ had never been , such an one , whatever relgion he may seem to have , is certainly without christ , and in a state of death unto this day . and that so it is with many professors may appear by this ; that trouble of conscience for sinne , and reformation of life , after that troubler is all the religion that is found in many professors ; for let a man attain to these two , to be stung in conscience for his sinne , and afterwards to take up a stricter course of life in the practice of good duties , as praier in his family , frequenting of sermons , conversing with christians , and such like ▪ and how many are there that hereupon would account themselves and be accounted by others to be right good christians , and in a most blessed condition ? whenas the truth is , all that is here mentioned , is no more then might be wrought by the law though christ jesus had never come into the world . for a serious consideration of the curses of the law being threatned might produce the one , and the serious consideration of the duties of the law being pressed & urged might produce the other ; but both the one and the other without christ , and consequently both the one and the other without salvation , sith there is no salvation without christ . wherefore ( dear friends ) in the bowels of jesus christ we do beseech you , examine your selves whether it be thus with you or with any of you ; ask your selves this question , whether any evangelicall and saving work of grace and faith in christ be yet wrought in your souls ; or whether all that yet you have had experience of , doe amount to no more but legall affrightment and legall amendment ? and if upon examination , any soul amongst you shall finde his condition to be no better then this that here we are speaking of , in the name of god , let such a soul be deeply humbled and repent in dust and ashes , for this amongst all his other sinnes , that he hath prized christ no more , thinking himself to be rich and encreased in goods , and to have need of nothing , because of legall duties and ●●mmon graces , not knowing how through want of christ jesus in his soul , he hath all this while been miserable , and wretched , and blinde , and poor , and naked . and let a man consider with himself , ( and the lord grant that he may consider it seriously ) that it is not all this humiliation and reformation that can make satisfaction to the justice of god for any one , though but the least of all his manifold transgressions , nor justifie his person in the sight of god ; and therefore if he die in this condition , ( which god forbid ) he will certainly die accursed , and notwithstanding all his glorious profession of religion , his good estimation amongst others , or the good opinion that he hath or hath had of himself , he will at death everlastingly perish from the glorious and saving presence of god ; because it is a most infallible and divine truth that must stand for ever , and all flesh shall finde it so ; that he that hath the sonne hath life , and he that hath not the sonne hath not life , joh. . . it were therefore much to be desired , that there were in men such an heart as was in the apostle paul , who having many legall priviledges , and having been zealous of legall duties , so that in respect of the righteousnesse of the law he was blawelesse , yet counted all these things losse for christs sake , for whom he suffered the losse of all , and did judge them to be dung that he might winne christ , and might be found in him , not having 〈◊〉 own righteousnesse which 〈◊〉 the law , ●ut that which 〈◊〉 by the faith of christ , even the righteousnesse which is of god by faith . phil. . , , , , , . an excellent lesson , and worthy to be learned by every christian , yea , a lesson that must be learned in some measure of truth by all those that must be saved ; for christ himself prescribes it as the first particular to him that would be his disciple , that " he must deny himself , mat. . . and by a mans self that must be denyed , he means this self-righteousnesse as well as other things . for sure it is , that if ever a man must be saved he must be saved by christ , because there is not salvation in any other . act. . . and if by christ , then ● man must beleeve in christ for without faith a man can have no union nor communion with christ nor ever please god . eph. . . heb. . ▪ and if a man have faith in christ , then christ must be precious in his sight , for unto them that have faith he is precious . pet. . . and if christ be precous in any mans sight then he must loath himself in his own sight , and not only cast away all the practice o● wickednesse , but all trust and confidence in the filthy rag● of his own righteousnesse , isa. . . that so selling all that ever he hath , he may buy that most precious pearl , the lord iesus christ , and his righteousnesse , matth. . . a pearl of such inestimable worth and value , that he is most unspeakably happy that ●ath it , and of such absolute necessity , that they are most wretched and accursed who ●ive and die without it . lastly , to name no more particulars , this is another , and not the least of the sinnes for which our countreymen should be humbled and repent in the sight of god , viz. that the authority and will of christ jesus in church-administrations , hath been no more acknowledged and regarded . for sith he is the only king and lord and law-giver to his church , psal. . ● . jam. . . therefore his church , and all things in his church ought to be established and ordered according unto his appointment , or if it be otherwise , his royall authority is injured thereby . now if his appointment in these matters were observed , then churches for the quality of their matter should consist of none but saints , and visible beleevers , isa. . . ezek. . , . zach. . ult. ephes. . . and for the quantity thereof , no greater number but one congregation . cor. . . then functions and offices of ministery which are not from heaven , but from men , mat. . . should not be tolerated in his church , nor any of those functions and offices be wanting which the lord jesus hath appointed and ordained . eph. . . phil. . . tim. . . then none should be chosen or received unto any office in the church , but such as are qualified with gifts for their places . tim. . , . &c. nor should their entrance into their places be without the choice and free consent of the church , act. . . & . , . & . . and when they are entred , they should execute their places with all diligence and faithfullnesse . cor. . . tim. . . and the worship which in these churches should be performed , should not be by the precepts and canons of men , but according to the will and word of god , with discipline administred according to the rule of christ●mat . . , , . in all which particulars ( the lord knows ) there hath been great swerving from the appointment of christ , both in your countrey , and in other places of england : in that prophane and vile men have been allowed for members of the church , and the signs and seals of the body and bloud of christ prophanely administred to such whom the scripture calleth dogges and swine ▪ matth . . also , in that besides the congregationall church appointed by christ , there have been diocesan and provinciall churches , which he appointed not , and arch-bishops , lord-bishops , deans , chancellors , and many more functions and offices in the church , which were all invented and devised by men ; and pastors , teachers , elders , and deacons , which he himself appointed , greatly neglected and out of use . many have been admitted to the ministery , which have been altogether unfit for any such weighty and sacred emploiments , and obtruded upon the congregations by patrons and prelates , and when they have been in their places , have been most negligent and unfaithfull therein , not minding the glory of god , nor the salvation of the peoples souls ; and ecclesiasticall discipline hath been administred by officers and laws , and canons and courts , and worship performed by service-book and ceremonies , in many particulars : of all which it may be truly said , they are things which the lord never commanded , nor did they ever come into his heart , as jer. . . but here it may be some man may say , if things have been amisse in these particulars , what is that to us ? we hope it is not our fault . such an one we would pray to consider that in many particulars the people have been willing enough , yea , too willing of these corruptions that have been invented and imposed by others ; as when the prophets prophesied falsly , and the priests did bear rule by their means , and the people loved to have it so . jer. . . and where it hath been so that the people have been willing of these corruptions , there the people have reason to be humbled for them , though the things were first invented and imposed by others . but say it had been against their mindes that such corruptions have been practised , yet it should greatly grieve a godly heart to see such injury done to christ jesus , a● that other laws besides his , and other lords besid●s him should have dominion over the people of god ▪ isa. . . and such injury done unto the church of christ , a● that by means of these usurpations and impositions of men , sh● should be bereaved of a grea● part of that spirituall liberty which was purchased for her by the price of his precious bloud ; and lastly , it should grieve every christian heart , in regard that many a soul ( god knows ) hath been endangered to everlasting perdition , as by the rest of the corruptions fore-mentioned , so especially by that dumb and unfaithfull ministery which hath been set over many a congregation , the lord having said that where vision fails , there the people perish ; and if the blinde leade the blinde , both must fall into the ditch , pro. . . mat. . . unlesse therefore you will say ( which we hope you doe abhorre to think ) that though the corruptions brought in by the prelacy and hierarchy , have been the destruction of the souls of thousands , and have been most injurious to christ jesus your lord and ours , and to his church which he so dearly bought , yet all this is nothing to you , you have no reason to be affected with these things , unlesse ( we say ) you will thus carelesly passe over these matters of this high concernment and importance , we know not how you can satisfie your consciences in the sight of god , without a serious and deep lamenting and bewailing of the fore-mentioned corruptions in church-administrations , as well as any other iniquities of the land . for sure it is , many have heretofore been deeply guilty of sinne in these things , and our dear countrey of lancashire hath had her part in this guilt as well as other places ; yea , and ourselves ( the lord be mercifull to us in regard of this and the rest of our sins ) have not been free when we lived amongst you from a great deal of ignorance and guilt in this kinde . in regard whereof we are now the more desirous to provoke our selves and our christian acquaintance and friends to a serious repentance for these things ; willing also by this means if it were the will of god to make some supply of our defectivenesse in exhortations of this kinde in times past , when ( as we must needs acknowledge ) we fell a great deal short of duty herein ; but being now and long ago convinced of the evil of the things afore-mentioned , we think it our duty both to lay the same deeply to heart , and to provoke our acquaintance to do the like . wherefore we beseech you , let it not seem a small thing unto any of you , that there have been such corruptions in the house of god , and the administrations therein . but let every soul seriously learn to be ashamed in the sight of god , that men have set their posts by gods posts , and their thresholds by gods thresholds . eze. . . that is to say , their own inventions by gods institutions . and if men be once ashamed of these things as well as of other their sins , then the lord hath promised in this scripture , eze. . . to shew them the pattern of his house , the goings out thereof , and the comings in thereof , and all the laws and ordinances thereof . but there is no hope that men should ever come to see the beauty and comely order of a pure church , and the holy things of god therein , unlesse they be humbled and ashamed of their own iniquities and abominations , as in other things , so also in this particular of mixing the devices of men with the holy institutions of god , which we heartily wish all the servants of god seriously to consider and to lay to heart . neverthelesse , we doe acknowledge that your condition stands in need of consolation as well as exhortation , though we thus speak ; for we have heard of sad and doleful things that have befallen that countrey as well as other parts of the kingdom , by means of the bloudy distempers of warre wherewith the lord hath afflicted the land . it hath been reported to us by printed currantoes and by letters , that many bloudy battels have been fought in your coasts , that many of your towns have been besieged and taken , many houses in lancaster and elsewhere burnt to the ground , many men robbed and plundered of their estates , many fain to fly from their houses and habitations for fear of the enemy , and glad to wander they and theirs for succour and relief where they could finde the same amongst strangers , that much bloud hath been shed at the battel at houghton common , at the taking of liverpool , of bolton , and other places in the countrey , and such as have escaped with life have been forced to endure and undergoe much hardship and misery , though their lives have been given them for a prey . in regard of all which we confess you have need of cordials and comforts , and oh that we had the skill to minister the same unto you in such sort as might be for the refreshing of your disconsolate hearts . but the best is , he that counts the wandrings of his people , and putteth all their tears into his bottle , he is able to comfort the comfortlesse among you , that have suffered for his sake , and will effectually do it in due time . in the mean season be entreated ( dear brethren , all you children of affliction ) to stay your hearts a little from sorrow , and refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears , while we propound to your consideration such grounds of consolation as we finde in the blessed book of the scriptures of god , and which have been sanctified and blessed unto us through his grace , for the bringing of our hearts to some measure of quiet contentation and comfort in the saddest hours of affliction that have befallen us in the passages of our pilgrimage , from our first times until this day . which grounds of consolation we trust the lord may be graciously pleased to blesse in like sort unto your souls . first of all , all our afflictions in this world do not happen by chance , or meerly by the will of devils or men , but they are all such as our heavenly father hath appointed us unto ; and as our saviour sometimes said shall we not of the cup that our father hath mixed for us ? joh. . . . he that sometimes said , i have seen , i have seen the affliction of my people that is in aegypt , exod. . . he is still the same allseeing and allsufficient god , and so beholds and observes all the sufferings of his servants , and all the injurious and outragious dealings of their enemies , psa. . . . nor doth he only see our sufferings and no more but so , but also ( such is his goodnesse ) he doth sympathise with us in the same : so that our lord and redeemer in all our afflictions is afflicted with us , and accounts our sufferings as his own . isa. . . zach. . . act. . , . col. . . our heavenly father like a good physitian doth never afflict his children willingly nor giveth them bitter potions to drink , but as it were by constraint and being necessitated thereunto , when they in regard of some spirituall distemper or corruption doe stand in need thereof . lam. . . pet. . . . and to shew how unwilling he is of the sorrows of his servants , he saith he is angry but a little against them , but for their enemies that are so fierce and handle his servants so severely , he professeth to be sore displeased with them for this dealing of theirs , and for their eager minde to help forward their affliction , which he counts a going beyond their commission . zach. . . . the power of the malignant enemies of gods servants is so limited by the lord , that not the most malicious of men , nor yet any of all the devils in hell can go one jot beyond his leave and commission , who as he hath set bounds to the sea , saying thus far shalt thou go , but no further , and here shall stay thy proud waves . job . . . even so in like sort doth he restrain the rage and tumult of the wicked against his servants . psa . . . the afflictions of the godly are alwaies so ordered by the lord , that for measure they shall not be immoderate , nor more then they are able to bear , jerem. . . cor. . nor shall they in the issue do them any hurt , but great good , both in purging out their sinne and corruption that they may be partakers of his holinesse , heb. . . isa. , . joh. . and in conforming them to christ , rom. . . and to the blessed prophets , apostles and martyrs that have been before them . . the lord doth not love his children ever a whit the lesse because they are afflicted , heb. . , . rev. . . but on the contrary is many times then nearest unto you , when they are in greatest tribulation , and then affords unto them the most of his gracious presence , the most mighty support , most rich supply of patience and long-sufferance and other graces , and the sweetest glimpses and apprehensions of heavenly glory , with the most lively expectations of future blessednesse , cor. . . & . . god was never nearer to the three princes , dan. . then when they were in the furnace , nor to daniel and ezechiel , and iohn in glorious vision of god , then when they were in captivity and banishment , nor unto steven , then when the stones came thickest about his head . . this is the common way in which all have gone that have gone to heaven , and why should we expect to be singularly priviledged above all the rest of the saints , and not rather be content to bear these things with patience , the same afflictions being accomplished in our brethren that are in the world , pet. . . all the sufferings of this life are but for a moment , for yet a little while , and he that shall come to work our perfect deliverance , he will surely come , and will not tarry , cor. . . heb. . . and sure it is , that if our lives were the longest that ever any were , and that of all this time we should never see good day , yet all this in respect of eternity were such a nothing , that that eternall weight of glory will abundantly recompense us for the same . rom. . . these and such like arguments of consolation against all the sufferings of the saints in this world , we doubt not but many amongst you have been long ago taught of god to consider . neverthelesse our unfeigned love to your souls hath moved us in this manner to revive the remembrance of them at this time , though you doe already know them , and be established in the present truth . and besides these considerations afore-mentioned , which are more generall , and appliable to all afflictions and troubles , whatsoever the saints may be exercised withall in this life ; there are sundry things in the ground and cause of your present sufferings , as also in respect of the condition of your enemies by whom you suffer , that may also be grounds of consolation to every sincere and christian heart . as first of all , because the war wherein you have been engaged , and by means whereof you have suffered so great things , was not ( as we conceive ) offensive and voluntary , but meerly defensive and taken up upon necessity , because otherwise it could not have been avoided , but your estates , your wives , your children , your liberty , your laws , yea , your very lives , and ( that which ought to be dearer then your lives ) the true religion of christ jesus , these must all have been prostituted to the pleasure of papists and other prophane and impious people , the sworn servants of antichrist , and bloudy enemies of god and of the kingdome ; and therefore if nehemiah spake to good purpose when he bad the rulers and people of iudah to remember the lord which is great and terrible , and to fight for their brethren , their sonnes and their daughters , their wives and their houses , neh. . your selves we doubt not may have comfort in your fightings , whatever you may hazard or loose therein , because you have as many relations and interests to fight for , and of as precious importance and concernment as any that nehemiah doth there mention , and some of a great deal more , so that if any ask why you would engage your selves in this war , the events whereof have been to many so sad , such may satisfie themselves if they will but consider what matters you had lying as it were at stake : and you may well answer in the words of david for the satisfaction of your own and others consciences , " was there not a cause ? sam. . . . and doubtless it is a great comfort in sufferings when they that suffer can say unto god , for thy sake o god these things are come upon us ; in which case the church psal. . doth greatly comfort themselves , and our saviour in this respect doth comfort his disciples , both pronouncing them to be blessed when they so suffer , and commanding them thereupon to rejoice and to be exceeding glad , matth. . , . now inasmuch as your sufferings are sufferings for that doctrine , that worship and that government of the church , which is prescribed in the scripture , against popery and prelacy and other corrupt inventions of men , we therefore doe esteem the cause of them to be no other but the very cause of god , and of his christ : and so you may well claim a share in those consolations which belong to those who suffer for the cause of god and for righteousnesse sake . . nor is that nothing which is so often mentioned in the scripture , that the bloud of gods servants doth cry for vengeance against their enemies ▪ gen. . . rev. . . in which respect you may be assured that he that saith the death of the saints is precious in his sight , psal. . . will not suffer the bloud which you or yours have shed or shall shed for his cause ( the cause you have now in hand ) to be alwaies unrevenged , but will surely finde a time to render tribulation to them that trouble you in his waies , thes. . . for their tumult and outrage and blasphemy is already come up into his ears , isa. . . so that he will doubtlesse avenge your cause , yea , and avenge it speedily , luk. . , . . your brethrens bloud that is already poured out in this cause , you cannot tell how much good it may have done , and will doe , nor what good your selves may doe by your constancy . but this you know how the apostle saith , the things that were done to him , did turn to the furtherance of the gospel . phil. . . and the old saying , that the bloud of martyrs hath been the seed of the church , hath been abundantly verified in our land , and in lancashire , as well as in other parts . for who knows not what a multitude of professors have been brought forth in the kingdom and in our county by means of the sufferings of the martyrs in queen maries daies ? was not blessed bradford born in manchester ? and george marsh in the parish of dean near bolton ? and ieffery hurst in leigh ? and doth not he that knows these places well know , that profession of the truth , and power of godlinesse hath abounded in these and the places thereabouts , much more then in ma●ny other places ? and why may we not look at this as one part of the precious fruit of the suffering of the saints afore-mentioned , who received their birth and first being in those places ? and if we should mention reverend bourn , wise gosnall grave midgeley , both the father and the sonne , and should say that manchester hath no● fared the worse for the first , nor bolton for the second , nor rachdale and leigh for the two last , we should not be vain in so saying . for we think it is clear that where these or other of the lords prophets have suffered any thing for his sake , and in any measure of truth have stood up for reformation , there god hath blessed the countrey round about , so that there hath not anywhere been found more profession and power of religion then in those parts . and if your own present sufferings may produce the like effect ( as why may it not ? ) we trust you will not so much sorrow for the bitternesse of the things you suffer , as rejoice and be glad for the happy and sweet fruit thereof . . rome is now ready to be ruined , and the time of her destruction now posteth on apace . for the beast now receiving a wound and deadly blow in the downfall of the prelacy and other corruptions depending thereon , doth therefore thus lay about him and bestirre himself in killing the servants of jesus , rev. . . as it hath been the manner of satan to shew forth the greatest wrath , when he knows he hath the shortest time , revel. . . therefore ( dear brethren ) be patient for a while , a very little while , for it will not be long afore the storm be over , and then we shall have glorious daies : for babylon being once fallen whose fall is not farre off , new ierusalem will then come down from heaven as a bride prepared for her husband . rev. . . which times you may be assured will be very glorious : for the report and vision of them was so joyfull to iohn , that transported therewith he could not contain himself , but fals down to worship the angel that revealed unto him these things . rev. , . & . . which though it was his infirmity , yet it argueth the great felicity of those times , the tidings whereof did so transport the spirit of so great and holy an apostle . . but though the time of your sufferings shall be but short , yet your recompence for the same shall be lasting and large . for though neither you nor your children should live to see the happy daies that are a coming and drawing on , but that you should be taken away in the battel , whilest you are fighting for and with the lamb against the beast and his adherents , yet of this you may be assured that so many of you ( and we hope they are not a few ) as have known the lord jesus in truth and in sincerity , shall no sooner end your daies in this world , but you shall be taken away to heaven , to the fruition of eternall rest and peace , where you shall experimentally finde it made good unto your souls , that your light affliction which is but for a moment , will work for you a farre more exceeding and eternall weight of glory , cor. . . and in the mean time , if god continue your lives , he is able ( the earth being his and the fulnesse thereof , psa. . . ) to give you an abundant recompence even in outward matters , for all the losses that you have or may sustain for his name , chro. . . however , that same hundred-fold in spirituall and internall blessings , which our saviour hath promised in such case , mar. . . that same you shall be sure to receive in this life , besides eternal life in the world to come . and for your children or friends that have already lost their lives in this cause , or may lose the same hereafter , he would have you besides other considerations to be comforted in this , that you shall see them again at the latter day , when you and they shall for ever be with the lord . wherefore to draw to an end , sith your war wherein you have been engaged and wherein you have suffered such things , hath been meerly defensive and necessary , because you could not avoid it , and sith the cause for which you contend is not your own , but the cause of jesus christ , sith your sufferings are so precious in the sight of god , that he will surely take vengeance on your enemies , sith your present pressures and troubles and constancy therein may be profitable to posterity many a day hereafter , and that the time of your sufferings must be but short , and then be followed with happy times that will ensue in this world , and afterwards be rewarded with eternall glory in another : we beseech you therefore dear brethren and friends , put away now all base and unworthy sorrows and fears , and quit your selves valiantly like men , and be strong , lift up the hands that hang down , and the feeble knees . in nothing fear your adversaries , which is unto them a token of perdition , and to you of salvation , and that of god ; but sanctifie the lord of hosts himself , and let him be your fear , and let him be your dread . if you have been plundered and robbed of your estates or a great part thereof , you know the christian hebrews took such things not only patiently but also joyfully , knowing that they had in heaven a better and an enduring substance : and your selves shall do well to be like minded to them therein . if you have lost your dear friends in these broyls and battels wherewith the kingdom and your countrey hath been embroiled : if any woman have lost her dear husband , any husband his dear wife , any father his childe , any childe his father , any friend or brother his brother or friend ; consider whether you could ever loose them in a better quarell , or for a better cause : christ jesus and his gospel and ordinances are su●e better then a thousand , either husbands or wives , either fathers , or children , or other friends : and he knows but little the worth of christ and of the things of christ , that doth not esteem them ten thousand times better then all the world besides : and indeed as our saviour saith , he that loves these things better then him , is not worthy of him . if you should be stripped of your estates and friends , and afterwards of your lives also , you know our dear saviour laid down his life for you , and therefore it is but equall , if you give all that is dear unto you , and even your very lives for him . if you lose any thing for him and his cause , you shall be no losers in the end , but by that time all accounts are cast up , you shall finde you have an hundred-fold for all your losses whatever they be or can be , we mean as our saviour doth , even an hundred fold in this life , and in the world to come life everlasting . should you forsake the truth for fear of affliction , which god forbid , you might then peradventure for a time preserve your estates , and liberties , and lives , ( and yet that may be a question too ) but suppose the best , you should neverthelesse have a very losing bargain of it in the end , and should shew your selves to be penny-wise therein and pound-foolish . for our saviours words must stand , and all flesh shall finde them most infallibly true , that he that shall save his life shall lose it , and he that shall lose his life for his sake and the gospels , shall save it . many of you have been professors of the truth for these many years , it is fit therefore that by this time you should be grown up to some good measure of heavenly-mindednesse , and living by faith even then when sense and reason , and all creature-comforts shall fail . look not therefore on things that are seen , but on things that are not seen , for the things that are seen are temporal , but the things that are not seen are eternal . learn now by faith to see him that is invisible , and thereby to endure all that may befall you , as moses sometimes did by that means . buy the truth but sell it not , rather sell all that you have for the buying thereof : for the merchandise thereof is better then silver , and the gain thereof , then fine gold . the doctrine of the gospel , and the grace of christ therein is such a treasure and such a pearl that he deals like a wise man that shall purchase the same , though with the losse or sale of all that he hath . for popery ( we trust ) you so far do see the vanity and loathsomenesse thereof , that you will never decline nor turn aside thereto : but take heed of arminianism , familism , and all other erroneous doctrines , of which these daies are so fruitfull : especially take heed of the leaven of the anabaptists : which ( if we be not mistaken ) is so dangerous and pernicious , and yet withall so contagious , and apt to spread in these daies , that we scarce know any other , of which christians had so much need to take heed , and to be advertised and exhorted so to do . it is but too manifest that many of all sorts are now a daies hankering and leaning that way , and it is therefore a testimony of our love , and so we hope you will take it , that we advise you to beware lest you also or any of you be plucked away with that or any other error , and fall from your own stedfastness . love one another , and cleave together in firmness of christian and cordial affection . the enemies of the truth are not so weak , nor you so strong , that there can be any need of your dissentions and divisions for the weakning of your selves or the strengthning of them . divide & impera . divide them and make your selves masters of them all , is one of machiavels principles , and a most perillous one it is . it will be your wisedom to take heed lest the jesuites should practise the same design amongst you , whether among your military commanders or otherwise , your safety and strength under god doth in great part consist in your unity and agreement among your selves ; beleeve the truth when it is held forth unto you either in books and private discourse , or specially in the publike ministry , & receive it in the love of it , that you may not be deluded with lies . content not yourselvs with literal knowledg in the brain & head , but chiefly look after spirituality and sincerity of heart , and manifest and shew forth the same by the power of godlinesse in all your conversation . what upon sober and serious consideration you shall finde your selves shall have most need of another day , whether the day of death or the day of judgement , or any other day of deep distresse , of that ( if you be wise ) doe you chiefly make your choice now : and what will be most uncomfortable then , do you now abandon ; and to apply this generall , the day is coming and not far off neither , when the favour of god through christ jesus , true interest to his speciall love , as reconciled through the bloud of his son , with the amiable and sweet light of his countenance , will be of more worth to the soul , and yield more satisfaction to the heart , then all that this world can afford , from the rising of the sunne to the going down thereof . yea , the day is coming when these things will all be miserable comforters and physitians of no value , but those other will then be found to be of such absolute alsufficiency to the soul , as that he shall be most happy for ever that hath them , and of such necessity that he shall be most wretched and accursed that shall live and die without them . wherefore we beseech you , consider wisely what now you have to doe , and now with mary make choice of the better part , which will never be taken from you . choose the lord god in christ for your portion , and the lot of your inheritance ; choose not any way of sin , or errors , or creatures for your god , for they are no gods : but now make a choice ( and the lord direct you so to doe ) that you may have the comfort of the same hereafter , and for evermore . we doe not think our selves to be the only prophets , nor that we only are able to give a word of counsel or comfort to our countreymen : we trust we are so far conscious to our own weaknesse , that such arrogant apprehensions are far from us . nor doe we doubt but lancashire is blessed of god with many faithful and able watchmen , who are continually blowing the trumpet in your streets , and imparting the message of the lord amongst you , much more suteably to your condition , then we at so many miles distance can possibly do , of whom we have no other thoughts but that the meanest of them might adde much unto either of us . but because we dearly love our countrey , though we live not in it , therefore we think it meet to seek the weal thereof in the best manner we are able , and we hope we may be allowed so to doe . we also consider , that sometimes the god of heaven may give as great a blessing to weaker means , as to those that are more excellent and eminent , that so himself and not the means , may have all the glory . finally , we are both of us well stricken in years , and posting on apace towards our dissolution , and never like to see your faces , nor you to see ours in this world , and therefore we are willing to doe this office of love unto your souls , conceiving it may be the last that we can do unto you in this kinde before we die : and glad we should be if you may have the lord jesus christ , and the things that concern your own peace in remembrance after our decease . upon these and such like considerations we have adventured to do as here you see , hoping our sincere and loving intentions will be accepted in good part . for which we desire no other recompence at your hands , but the benefit of your praiers on our behalf , and this we do most affectionately request from you . finally brethren farewell : and the god of all grace who hath called us to his eternal glory by christ iesus , after that you have suffered a while , make you perfect , stablish strengthen , settle you : to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever , amen . fear none of those things which possibly you m●y yet suffer , but be you faithful unto the death , and the lord hath promised he will give unto you a crown of life . to his grace we commend you all in our best desires , and so rest , desirous of your eternal comfort in christ jesus , richard mather , william tompson ▪ dorchester in new england , the last of december , . a postscript to the reader . understand dear friends and countreymen , and any to whom this ensuing letter may be presented , that the authours who writ the same , did intend it only as a small remembrance of that christian love that ought to flow and abound in all that are members of that misticall body , according to that heb. . . so especially it ought to manifest it self betwixt ministers and people ; and though these friends that now write are so distant that they cannot speak to those to whom they write , as sometime they have done , yet they cannot forget those bowels of love as here is expressed and once did more fully declare to be in them when they dwelt among you ; and though it come so late to your hands , the reason was , the place being so remote , and the way of conveyance so difficult , being it was intended to be printed that so the more might enjoy it : the presse at that time being full of other imployment ( which was in the year . ) it was cast by so long , that at last the authours thought it out of season , and so sent for it home again to n. e. till now this year , some friends understanding and seeing o● it , encouraged the authours to put it forth still , which they ( willing to shew their love to their countreymen ) condescended unto : and therefore let it not seem to thee as an almanack out of date , but well weigh and consider it , and what thou findest in it that concerns thee in any kinde , make use of it to the glory of god and thine own good , for that is it which the authours wish and desire , as their preachings formerly , and letters now expresse , that the name of god may be glorified in you , and you in him . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- rom. . jer. . . isa. . . isa. . . jer . . dan. . , , . lev. . . &c. lam. . jer. . . & . job . . job . . . jon. . . isa. . mal. . . isa. . . eze. . . joh. . . psal. . josh. . . act. . . gen. . . joh. . . heb. . . psal. . ● . gal. . , . cor. . . . joel . . . eze. . . ez●k. . . luk. . , , , . rom. object . answ. psa. . ●● cor. . . heb. . phil. . isa . . heb. . . m●● . . ● , . m●r . . . cor. . . heb. . . pro . mat. . . pet. . . . thes. . . pet. . , . rev. ● . . a disputation concerning church-members and their children in answer to xxi questions wherein the state of such children when adult, together with their duty towards the church, and the churches duty towards them is discussed by an assembly of divines meeting at boston in new england, june th, / now published by a lover of truth. mather, richard, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing m a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a disputation concerning church-members and their children in answer to xxi questions wherein the state of such children when adult, together with their duty towards the church, and the churches duty towards them is discussed by an assembly of divines meeting at boston in new england, june th, / now published by a lover of truth. mather, richard, - . [ ], p. printed by j. hayes for samuel thomson ..., london : . "though sometimes attributed to increase mather, was written by his father, richard mather; the manuscript in his hand is in the amer. antiq. soc. library"--holmes, t.j. increase mather, v. , p. ; the minor mathers, p. . published by the agency of nathaniel and increase mather, with a prefatory note "to the reader" by the former. cf. brinley catalogue, no. . errata: p. . reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng church membership -- early works to . covenants (church polity) a r (wing m a). civilwar no a disputation concerning church--members and their children, in ansvver to xxi. questions: wherein the state of such children when adult, to mather, richard c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - rina kor sampled and proofread - rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a disputation concerning church-members and their children , in answer to xxi . questions : wherein the state of such children when adult , together with their duty towards the church , and the churches duty towards them is discussed . by an assembly of divines meeting at boston in new england , iune th . . now published by a lover of truth . london , printed by i. hayes , for samuel thomson at the bishops head in pauls church-yard . . to the reader . it is justly accounted one of the glories of the english nation , that god hath honoured them with special light in some momentous truths , above what he hath other protestant churches round about them . the morality of the christian sabbath , deep and spiritual insight into those secret transactions between the lord and the soules of his elect at their first conversion , & also in their after walking in communion with god , are usually observed as instances hereof . and of the same kind , though perhaps in a lower rank , are those truths about the instituted worship of god , which have been now for some years a considerable part of those disquisitions , which do also at this day exercise the most searching thoughts and ablest pens that are amongst us . and truly the dealing of god in his providence towards the people of this land , in bringing out the light and glory of these truths , hath been observable , and different from the way that he hath walked in to other churches . for , whereas they rose up from antichristian apostasie in doctrine and discipline both at once , together with his abominations in faith , rejecting also his inventions in church order , insomuch as neither the head , the pope , nor his body in the principal members of it , the arch-bishops and bishops with the rest of that hierarchical frame , have at all been to be found exercising the usurpations of the man of sin , in most of the reformed protestant churches since the first day of their rejecting popery : in england it was far otherwise , the head of antichrist being indeed here cut off by henry the eighth , who justled him from his usurped supremacy within his territories , but yet ( as is observed of him ) he left his body , the hierarchy , continuing ; which for many years not only stood , but exercised in a great measure , the authority of the dragon , and made an image of the beast , and caused as many as would not worship it to be killed . and in this the lord had doubtlesse a design , more fully to lay open the loathsomnesse of the abominations of the mystery of iniquity in this part of it ; which by his infinite wisdom he effectually carried on all along , and hath in a good part accomplished in these daies wherein we live . for even from the first reformation here begun , the lord shone in upon the understandings of some of his precious servants , with such an evidence of light in these things , as overpowred their consciences , and constrained them to bear a publick testimony against the remainders of antichrist in the land . insomuch as from that time , till the day of the downfal of all the hierarchical brood , god never suffered himself to be without his witnesses in this cause of his , whom he raised up , and whose right hand he held , to plead , and preach , and pray , and weep , and beleeve , and print , and contend , and resist , and suffer , for the institutions of christ , not only to silencing and reproach , but to banishment and blood it self some of them . and verily the number of the martyrs of iesus christ , who have had his testimony and kept the word of the patience of the saints in this land since the first reformation , will be found not to be few , and their sufferings neither few nor light , whenever that dying wish of judicious and blessed ames shall be accomplished as it deserves , viz. that a martyrologie , in this cause of church-discipline under the bishops , should be compiled and published to the world . and hence it is come to passe , that amongst the english divines and christians there is , as was said , more light in these points , and in sundry of their church assemblies and administrations more purity , then is so ordinarily to be met withal in others . amongst all that have suffered for and searched into these truths , they of new-england justly deserve , and will have , a name and a glory , as long as the earth shall have any remembrance of an english nation ; not only for their sufferings here under the iniquity of those bloody fathers of the church ( as they loved to be stiled ) the bishops , though they bore as great if not a greater share therein than most of their brethren that staied behind them . but more especially will after ages honour them , for that great and high adventure of theirs , in transporting themselves , their wives , and little ones , upon the rude waves of the vast ocean , into a remote , desolate and howling wildernesse , and there encountring by faith and patience , with a world of temptations , and streights , and pressing wants , and difficulties ; and this , upon no other inducements , but that they might meet with him whom their souls loved in the midst of his golden candlesticks , and see him as they have there seen-him in his sanctuary : an undertaking hardly to be parallell'd , unlesse perhaps by that of their father abraham from ur of the caldees , or that of his seed from the land of egypt . and these are the men , christian reader , who are the authors of this disputation now put into thy hands ; which deserves esteem and acceptance somwhat the rather on this account , because it comes from such as it doth , and is about such a subject ; even from men holy and learned , and is about that which they have searched into , as seriously , impartially and unprejudicedly , as any men are ever like to do in this world . besides , that being themselves officers to instituted churches of saints , and this work of theirs being nextly and especially for the service of the churches , they did therein lie under as direct and full an influence of the spirit of christ , and were on all accounts as compleatly wrapt within the promise for their guidance , as men can on this side heaven . yea 't is about those truths which they have , and at this day do suffer for ; and therefore they are as likely as most others , to be the instruments in the hand of christ , by whom he will communicate further light in these points : god is never behind hand with men , and as some special exercise of any particular grace strengthens and encreaseth it , and establisheth the heart in it and with it ; so , the obedience and faithfulnesse of his servants to any truth of christ , especially if in an eminent degree and manner , engageth god to make known more of his counsel and will in that truth to such persons , and as under such an engagement the lord looks upon himself . it is true indeed the civil magistrates of that jurisdiction of the english in new-england that lies upon the river connectiquot , sent these questions to the magistrates of the massachusets , and they mutually called together sundry of the ablest ministers of each colony , and recommended to their search and considerations these enquiries thus stated , thus framed : and this was the happy rise of this disputation ; what is here thus tendered to the world , being the result and product of the consultations and debates on this occasion had , which was by the elders met together agreed to , and accordingly presented , to the magistrates of the aforesaid jurisdictions respectively . but neverthelesse , it was especially and nextly for the service of the churches , the pious and careful magistrates being herein indeed nursing fathers to them ; for they finding doubts ▪ and perhaps some differences about these points , likely to arise and disquiet the churches , took this prudent and happy course , timely to bring forth such light , as might be to universal satisfaction , before darknesse had brought forth difference in judgment and perhaps practise also , and that contentions , and they such animosities and paroxysmes as would afterwards more hardly be healed , than prevented . these papers came some moneths ago to england , and it was then in his thoughts that had them in his hands , to have made them publick ; but for some reasons which then prevailed with him he forbore , yet hath since given way thereto , partly expecting , according to some intimation which he had from new-england , that the magistrates there would have ordered the printing of them . but , not hearing since that it is there done , he hath given way to the desires of some friends here , who were acquainted with them , and with his having of them , that they should now thus be made publick ; hoping withall , that what is done herein , will not be unacceptable to those reverend persons , that were the authors of this disputation . especially considering , that god who formes the spirit of man within him , and in an especial manner guides the hearts and studies of his servants , hath of late set awork some of them in old england also , to search into these questions , and communicate the issue of their enquiries to the world in print ; whence likewise many more , are awakened to desire and long , for further light in these points about which the main part of this disputation is . thus we see , the same great and blessed spirit , that dwells and works in the hearts of all the saints all the world over , hath , in this also , wrought the same work , on the hearts of the servants of christ in old england and in new : from whence there ariseth ( though not such as quite to take away all difference in judgment , yet ) a further onenesse and agreement between them , than that of blood and language , as men of the same nation ; or that of the common faith , as fellow-saints and servants of the same lord . like as two needles of equall weight , toucht at once with the loadstone , will as they say , by a secret sympathy move alike and at once , though at many miles distance one from another ; so the hearts of the saints in both englands , as being toucht with the same spirit , have moved together towards the same enquiries ; although perhaps , as in other points , they got the start of most of us here in england , being in the light , and shaking of the dust of babilon , before most of our churches did ; so they may in this also , have had the same honour ; there appearing in them a study of the questions resolved in this disputation , before there was any observeable discovery of such a search here amongst us ; the wise god keeping towards us both the like proportion still , so carrying on them and us , in an even pace , towards the same end of light and glory , which he will bring us both unto at last . and these papers with the truths therein , having in themselves a tendency to this happy end , the midwifeing of them by the press into the publick and common light , in compliance with the aforesaid providence ( they being likely otherwise to have lien hid in a private hand or two ) cannot be lookt upon as at all injurious to those honoured and reverend elders that were the authors of them , much lesse to any others ; for 't is here done , ( saving the errata of the press ) with such faithfulnesse as cannot be impeached . and this is the rather said , because perhaps the reader may have been deceived in some other treatises , which have gone abroad , and generally been look't upon , as the compilement of the elders in new-england ; whereas they had but one private person for their author . so it is indeed in the questions , the answerer whereof was mr. richard mather , and not any other elder or elders in new-england , who likewise is the author of the discourse concerning church-covenant printed therewith , which latter he wrote for his private use in his own study , never intending , nor indeed consenting to its publication , nor so much as knowing unto this day how the copy of it came abroad into those hands by whom it is made publick , save that he conjectures some procured a copy of it from mr. cotton , to whom ( such was their intimacy in his life time ) he communicated it , as he writes in a late letter to a son of his now in england who it seems had enquired of him concerning those treatises ; and much lesse is there any truth in that which is said in the title page prefixed to the discourse of church-covenant , as if it were sent over to mr. barnard anno ; mr. mather having neither acquaintance nor any intercourse by letters with mr. barnard . nor indeed , are these papers , now in thy hands , the declared judgment of all the elders in new-england , there being but about twenty called together by the magistrates to consult of these things , and declare their judgments in them , and of those twenty , two or three met not with the rest . they are neverthelesse the genuine product of that meeting of elders which on the forementioned occasion was held in the th moneth at boston in new-england . what entertainment they will meet with now they are abroad it is not for me to say . they must now run the same hazard with other writings of this kind . some passages there are which i fear will be wrested by one kind of men or other to serve their own hypothesis . it was in my thoughts , having some special advantages for it , here to have inserted somthing as to those particulars for the prevention of such an abuse . but i shall only say this ▪ let but such passages in this short tract as seem most to vary from what the elders and churches of new-england have been accounted to professe and practise , receive an interpretation as they will bear , from their own declared judgment , either in their platform of church discipline , or in other writings of their own , and i doubt not but it will be found , they are not warped from their former faith and order : whatever some may think from this treatise , or whatever mr. giles firmin hath born the world in hand , in any of his late misrepresentations of them ; whom i rather chuse to instance in , for that his reports of new england have perhaps therefore found the more credit , because he above others is not without advantages to know new-england , and the waies of the churches there , better than it seems he doth . the design of these enquiries being to search out what course the lord christ in his wisdom and faithfulnesse hath appointed , for prevention of the degenerating of churches in successive generations , from their primitive soundnesse and purity , and of the polluting and prostituting of his holy things thereby ; it is not altogether improbable , but some additional contribution of light , may be brought forth by them to us here in england , in that great case of ours , about the restoring of such of our parishes as retain any thing of the essence of a church in them ( and thence are capable of a reformation ) to such a measure of purity , as may take off the just distasts and dissatisfactions of such , as are conscientiously tender of their church-communion : the preservation of churches pure , & restauration of them when collapsed , meeting in the end , do also run along together in the way thereto , and are to be accomplished by the same rules . may this in any measure be the fruit of this disputations coming under the presse , it will never repent any of those persons that have had any hand therein ; yea it will be their rejoycing and their glory in the day of the lord iesus ; and , that so it may , the blessing of heaven be upon it . a disputation concerning church-members and their children in answer to questions . quest . . whether any children of confederate parents be under their parents covenant and members with them . answ. some children of confederate parents are by meanes of their parents covenanting , in covenant also , and so members of the church by divine institution . for , arg. . they that are in that covenant for substance which was made with abraham , gen. . . they are in covenant , and members of the church , by divine institution , because that covenant doth inferre church-membership , as being the formall cause thereof ; for . a people that are in that covenant , are thereby the visible people or church of god , gen. . . compared with deut. . , . by this covenant the family of abraham , and so afterwards the people of israel , was made and established the visible church of god . . many were in that covenant , which never were in saving state of grace ; therefore that was the externall or church covenant , which god makes with his visible church or people . . circumcision sealed that covenant , which was the distinguishing mark between those within and those without the church . but some children are in that covenant for substance which was made with abraham , gen. . . as appears by sundry scriptures , which being rightly considered , and compared , do inferre the continuance of the substance of that covenant , whereby god is a god to his people and their seed , under the new testament , acts . . gal. . . with gen. . . rom. . , . the churches of the gentiles do partake of the root of covenanting abraham and of olive or church estate thereby : so cor. . . the word [ holy ] as applied to any sort of persons , and opposed to gentile-uncleannesse is not in scripture used for lesse then a faederall , or covenant-holinesse , but is often used in that sense , as ezr. . . deut. . . and . . . and . . and . . dan. . . and . . rom. . . and where a covenant or faederal estate is asserted of children , what doth it but refer us to that ancient and never revoked covenant , common to all nations , whereof abraham was the pattern-father , gen. . , . and if gentile proselytes of old , they and their children shared in that covenant , surely gentile believers now are not behind them in the like priviledge ; for the gentile confederate believer is also a child of abraham , gal. . , . rom. . , . therefore he hath that covenant of which abraham was a pattern subject , made with him , viz. that god will be his god , and the god of his seed , luk. . . arg. . such children as are by christ , affirmed to have a place and portion in the kingdome of heaven , they have a place and portion in the visible church , and so consequently are members thereof . but so it is with some children , math. . . mark . . luk . . the proposition is evident , for the kingdome of heaven or of god is sundry times used to expresse the visible church , or church estate , math. . . and . . and . . and if the disciples might or should have known that those children were to be admitted to christ upon that ground , then the kingdome-interest of such children was a visible or knowable and apparent thing . if any should expound it of the kingdome of glory ▪ yet that would inferre the same thing : for neither may the church exclude those from her fellowship , who by christ his testimony are visible heirs of glory , nor are any in ordinary course heirs of the kingdome of glory , that are not of gods visible church , and kingdome of grace here . and what is there spoken by christ himself , as a standing truth , and that under the term of the kingdome of heaven ( a term in speciall manner applied unto gospel-administration ) cannot be doubted to continue in force in the christian church of the new testament . arg. . if no children be members of the visible church , then was not the lord jesus ( when a child ) a member of the visible church , but none ( we presume ) will venture to say so of christ . arg. . if it were not so , no children might be baptized : for baptisme being a church ordinance , and a seal of being incorporated into the church , cor. . . and succeeding circumcision , which was proper to the church , none can be subjects immediately capable thereof , but church-members ; nor doth the power of officers , as such , extend further then to the churches ; as they cannot judge , so they may not baptize them that are without , or non-members . arg. . they that are some of the disciples intended in mat. . . are church-members . for as the term [ disciples ] is ordinarily used for church-members , act. . , , , . and . . and . , , , , and . . and vers. . with chap. . . and . . so this sense thereof best suits that place in matthew . . because the disciples there are the immediate subjects of baptisme , and so of being called by god his name , the wonted title of church-members , and because they are such as are subjected to christs school , to christs doctrine and discipline , and to the authoritative teaching of his ministers , and observation of all things that shall be taught by them , ver. . but some children are some of the disciples intended in mat. . . for . some children were some of those whom the apostles in accomplishing that commission , did disciple , acts . . those whom the false teachers would have reduced , under the yoke of circumcision , they were some of those whom the apostles accounted disciples , or whom the apostles had discipled : but some children were some of those , whom the false teachers would have reduced under the yoke of circumcision , for they would have had both gentile parents and children circumcised , after the manner of moses . v. , . with exod. . , . & acts . . and that the apostles took in children with parents when they were conversant in the work of discipling , further appears from acts . . & . , , . cor. . . . some children are under the promised teaching of god , isa. . . and the word there used is rendred disciples , isa ▪ . . . some children do visibly belong to christ , mark . . . iosh. . , . therefore are disciples . compare mat. . . with mark . . . when christ saith , disciple all nations , he bids gather the gentiles into like covenant and church-estate ( for the substance thereof ) which had been the portion of the iews . therefore he bids disciple some children . arg. . they that are subjects of the lords visible spiritual kingdom , servants and children of the lords family , they are members of the church , which is called the lords kingdom , and house and family in the scripture : but so are some children , ezek. . , , . it is davids , i. e. christs spiritual-gospel-kingdom , that he there speaks of ; and that in reference unto visible sanctuary or church-estate . that some children are the lords servants , see , lev. . , , . and that , not by common right of creation onely , or designment unto some particular service ; but of special redemption and conservation , there spoken of . and surely both childrens capacity so to be , and the lords grace and favour so to accept them , was not greater then , than now . that they are children , sons and daughters of god , see rom. . , . gen. . . ezek. . , . & . . and how were these children the lords children properly and meerly upon the account of internal and spiritual regeneration ? for that was not found in many of the children spoken of in the places mentioned , nor yet only by creation , for so others were gods children as well as the children of the iews , and so the daughters of men were his daughters as well as the other were his sons , gen. . . therefore they are said to be gods children , because of their covenant , and church relation unto him , which was common to all the children of the church , and to none other , and so , ezek. ▪ . shews , being compared with verse , . arg. . if no children be members of the visible church , then we have no well-grounded hope according to ordinary course of dispensation , of the salvation of any dying infants : and the reason is , because salvation pertains to the church , isa. . . eph. . . & . , . ioh. . . act. . . luke . . those that are without the visible kingdom of god , are visibly in the kingdom of satan ; for he is the god of the world , cor. . . and to him are men delivered , when they are cast out of the church , cor. . . tim. . . so if children live and die out of the visible church , they live and die out of gods visible kingdom , and visibly in the kingdom of satan : and then what visible ground of hope ( according to ordinary course ) of their salvation ? but to account the estate of all that die children , so hopelesse and forlorn , is contrary to the tender and rich mercy of the lord , and to the doctrine of the scriptures , and to godly parents most uncomfortable . arg. . if some children were members of the church of god in the old testament , then some children are members of the church of god in the daies of the new testament : but some children were members of the church in the time of the old testament ; which though a truth , that we know not how any can deny , yet we may briefly evince and confirm thus ; that children then were in covenant , is expresly witnessed , gen. . . deut. . , , . and that they were in such a covenant , or so in covenant , as to be members of the church that then was , appears , because . they were in the same covenant that their parents or elder persons were in , and whereby they were constituted members of the church , gen. . . deut. . , , , , . & . . & . . ier. . . acts . . . they were subjects of a church-ordinance , never regularly applied to any out of the church , viz. circumcision , rom. . , . they were israelites , ( i. e. in other words , members of the church of israel ) to whom pertained . church priviledges , rom . . they were children of the kingdom , and such as were capable of being cast out of church estate , therefore in it , mat. . . rom. . . ier. . . king. . . . they were visibly the lords people by covenant , even as the rest of the people were the lords people , ezek. . , , . . they were children of the house of israel , as opposed to dogs , i. e. persons out of the church , mat. . , . in a word , as oft as they are said or implied to be a part of the holy seed , of the holy people , of the lords people , of israel , of the circumcision , of those whom god redeemed out of the land of egypt , to make them his peculiar treasure , of the inheritance and congregati - of the lord , &c. so often are they shewed to be members of the church . but all the question will be about the consequence of the proposition , and that may be cleared thus . . if the church of the old testament and the church of the gentiles under the new testament , be for kind essentially the same , then if children were members of that church , they are also members of these : for if they be the same essentially , and the same for kind , then they have the same covenant or general from : therefore that covenant which takes in the seed or children , gen. . . therefore the seed or children are in and of the one church as well as the other . but that the church state then and now , was and is essentially the same , is evident , because it is the same kingdom of god , and not another ; which is taken from them , and given to us , mat. . . & . , . one and the same sheepfold for kind , under one and the same shepheard , in which were the iews first , and the gentiles afterwards , iohn . . the gentiles are fellow heirs with the iews of the same body , and partakers of the same promise , eph. . we are in the same root and olive , from which some of them were broken off , in which the godly iews not broken off , did still continue , and into which the rest shall be grafted in again in time , rom. . , , . the conversion of the gentiles is expressed in such a manner , as to be by coming in to the iews , and joyning with them , as iaphet must dwell in the tents of shem , gen. . . and not that shems tents must be destroyed , and other kind of tents built for iaphet to inhabit : all which do shew that the church then and now , is not essentially ( though sundry waies accidentally ) differing , but the same . . again , if the consequence be not good , then it will follow that such iews as were brought in by the gospel into church-estate , were great losers by embracing the gospel ; and the children losers by their parents faith , inasmuch as though in the former state , the children were members with the parents , yet now in the gospel-estate , the children by this assertion are all left out . yea , then the children of those iews , acts . which before the sermon , when their parents wanted faith , were in the covenant and church-state with their parents , are now after the sermon , when their parents are become believers , cast out or fallen out of the church . a strange and harsh doctrine , that the faith of the parents should set the children further off from god , and from his church and covenant , than they were before . . then also when the iews shall be converted in the latter daies of the new testament , the parents must be members of the church , but not the children , and so they shall be in a worse condition than formerly , as not having their children in the church with them , as formerly it was . but besides the harshnesse of such a conclusion , see the contrary , in ier. . . isa. . . & . . & . . ezek. . , . . although it be true that the lord hath made difference between the administration of his covenant and grace to his people in these daies , from that which was in former times , yet as these differences are not in the essence of the church-estate , but in accidentals and in degree , so where any alteration is made , it is still for our advantage and greater benefit ; and therefore our covenant is called a better covenant , and established upon better promises , heb. . . & . . and from this it is that the burden of ceremonies which lay on them , is now taken off ; the darknesse of types and shadows is now removed , and liberty is now given to worship the father every where ; whereas they were for many things tied only to ierusalem ; and every congregation of saints is now a church entire within it self , whereas then no single congregation had such church-power and entirenesse of jurisdiction ; but all their congregations had dependance on ierusalem , and all made up but one national church . in these things and some others that might be named , there is alteration made , but still it is an alteration for the better and for our advantage . but now for the particular in question , if children were then members of the church , and now be not , here is an alteration made for the worser , and not for the better , not for our advantage but for our losse ( for so it is , to have all our children put out of covenant and church , and from all the priviledges thereof , iosh. . , . eph. . . psal. . . mat. . . ) and therefore such a change may not be admitted . for christ by his coming did not worsen the condition ( not of the whole church , but not ) of any one person upon earth , nor yet of any age or condition or sort of persons , luke . . and surely the child in minority ( as the church of old was , gal. . , . ) hath not a greater or larger place in the house , nor is in better condition in respect of priviledges , than the heir that is full of age . and who can think that a place in gods house which is promised as so great a benefit , in isa. . , . and accounted such a glory , advantage , &c. rom. . , . & . . should be no more but a part of that bondage and tutorage which belongs to children under age ? hence also add a fifth argument to prove the consequence above mentioned . . if children were once church-members and do not continue to be church-members still , then their membership must have been repealed by the lord , who alone could make such an alteration : and if any should affirm that the lord hath done it , it lieth upon them to prove it ; and to shew when or where such an alteration was made , or such a repeal may be found . but in the mean time , though it be lesse needful to prove the negative , when-as the affirmative ( in such a case as this ) cannot be shewed , yet let these considerations amongst others that might be named for that purpose be duly weighed . . if the lord had made such an alteration , ( that now under the new testament no children should be members of the church ) then in all likelihood christ or his apostles would have made mention of it : witnesse their faithfulnesse : and how else should we know that the lord had appointed any such alteration ? but now christ and his apostles in stead of mentioning any such thing , do confirm the contrary , mark . , , . acts . . cor. . . and hence the apostles writing epistles to churches , do sometimes expresly and directly apply their speeches unto children , eph. . . col. . . which seems to imply that they accounted children to be parts and members of the churches unto whom they sent those epistles . . if the apostles had taught any such alteration , surely the iews who raised objections and controversies about matters of far lesser moment , and who did so stumble at taking away the particular rite of circumcision ( for though they had member-ship and baptism allowed to their children , yet that would not satisfie them , without the rite of circumcision also , acts . . & . . & . . ) and considering also how they had been from age to age wonted to this covenant and church-estate of their children ; sure'y we say , they would have made a remarkable stand at this , if the apostles had taught or practised this discovenanting or unmembring of all their children , and the apostles would have needed both by preaching and writing to have bestowed much pains to have quieted them in this point : but of any such thing there is a deep and total silence in all the new testament . quest . . whether all children of whatever years or conditions be so , as , . absent children never brought to the church . . born before their parents covenanting . . incorrigible of seven , ten , or twelve years old . . such as desire not to be admitted with their parents , of such an age . ans. onely such children as are in their minority , covenant with their parents ; therefore not all children of whatsoever years and conditions . we do not hereby exclude such as being defective in their intellectuals , are as children in respect of their incapacity . that adult children are to covenant in their own persons , see ans ▪ to quest . th . . children in their minority , though absent , covenant in their parents , and are members with them , dout . . , . . children born before their parents covenanting , yet if in their minority when their parents enter into covenant , do covenant with them and are church-members , gen. . . the whole houshold of lydia , the jailor and others were baptized , therefore some children in minority which were born before , except we shall deny so much as one child in minority then alive in all those houses . . there is no sufficient reason ( at least ordinarily ) to conclude a child of seven , ten , or twelve years old to be incorrigible , because a child at the ages mentioned is infans in foro ecclesie , i. e. he hath no voice nor is capable of being heard in a church way , therefore not incorrigible as to the church . their obstinacy at the years mentioned is not capital : by gods law , deut. . . there is still place for hope , prov. . . & . . . their desiring or not desiring in their own persons during the ages forementioned , is not to be attended as the ground of proceeding in this case , because the ground thereof is the covenant founded upon divine institution , and in-depending upon such childrens desires . quest . . till what age shall they enter into covenant with their parents , whether sixteen , twenty one , or sixty ? ans. as long as in respect of age or capacity they cannot according to ordinary account , be supposed able to act in a matter of this nature for themselves , so long they shall enter in by means of their parents covenant , because whilst they are children and in their minority , they are not otherwise capable of covenanting : when adult , they are to covenant in their own persons . if a precise and certain age may here be prescribed , surely it is safe to go , at least so far , as may answer the example , gen. . . where ishmael is admitted to the seal by his fathers covenant at thirteen years of age . howbeit , the bounding of adult and in-adult age , depending upon the judgment of prudence , much is to be left unto the discretion of officers and churches in this case . quest . . what discipline a child is subject to ▪ from seven to sixteen years old ? ans . church discipline is taken either more largely for the act of a church-member dispensed to a church-member as such , by way of spiritual watch , rebuke , &c. luke . , . mat. . . or more strictly , for the act of the whole church , dispensed by a member thereof ; as in case of publick rebuke , admonition , excommunication , mat. . . cor. . . tim. . . in the first sense , children in their minority , are subject to church discipline immediately , but not in the second . . it is the duty of the elders and church to call upon parents to bring up their children in the narture and admonition of the lord , and to see as much as in them lieth , that it be effectually done , eph. . . officers and churches respectively succeed apostles in matters of ordinary practise . . besides their subjection to ecclesiastical discipline , they are also subject to civil discipline respectively according to their capacity , whether domesticall , scholasticall , or magistraticall . quest . . whether a father may twice covenant for his children in minority in several churches ? ans. . when a parent is called to remove from one church to another , he is also called to enter into covenant in that church to which he removes , paul was first baptized and in communion at damascus , act. . . afterwards removed unto ierusalem , and joyned to the church there , v. . this , the very nature of order calleth for , because otherwise he can neither do all the duties , nor enjoy all the priviledges of a member , in the one church or in the other ; not in the former , because now he dwelleth not with them ; nor in the other , because though dwelling amongst them , he joyneth not with them in covenant . . when the parent thus removing , entreth into covenant , his children then in minority covenant in him : the child and the power of government over the child , must go together , prov. . . . hence it is the duty of churches when they give letters dimissory unto parents , to insert the dismission of the children then in minority with them . . adult children yet under the power of the parents and removing with them , are to give their personal consent unto this translation of their membership , and so to be orderly dismissed and received with their parents , otherwise they remain members of the church of which they were before . quest . . whether the end of a deputy covenant , be not to supply personall incapacity , or whether children ripe for personall covenanting in regard of age , should covenant by a deputy , as others that are unable thereunto ? ans. . children in their minority , whose immediate parents are in church-covenant , do covenant in their parents ; see the proof hereof in answer to question . . children adult ought to covenant in their own persons . to covenant in our own persons according to the sense of this question , is nothing else but an orderly and church profession of our faith , or a personall publick and solemn avouching of god , in an ecclesiasticall way , to be our god , according to the covenant of his grace , the great duty of the people of god throughout all generations , both in the times of the law and gospel : pregnant and illustrious examples whereof we have , in the time of moses , deut. . , , . & . , , &c. and of ioshua , iosh. . , . of asa , chron. . . of iosiah , chron. . , . so ier. . a considerable part of which prophesie ( for it extends it self also to the ages after christ ) we have accomplished nehem . ult. & . , . the priests and levites and many others there named , and their wives , and their sons , and their daughters , every one that had knowledge , and that had understanding , did cleave unto their brethren , their nobles , and entred into a covenant and an oath , to walk in gods law ; so of the times under the law . concerning the times under the gospel , in isa. . . & . , , . we read of the seed and off-spring of iacob and israel , that when they should be sprung and grown up ( h. e. become adults ) they should both by word and writing , by saying and subscribing with their hands , engage themselves unto the lord . it is a part of instituted gospel worship . the same reason which called the fathers to confession before , calleth the son also when adult . it went for good reason among the iews ; he is of age , he shall speak for himself , ioh. . . what more meet than that the confession of our faith should be made with our own mouths when we are able ? god avoucheth them in the same day when they avouch him . it is a special engagement of the adult person , to perform his covenant , psal. . . i have sworn and will perform . lastly , it is a duty ( compared with others ) especially commended in the scriptures , from the subject thereof , viz. a believer , rom. . . every believer is a confessor . from the matter , the greatest truth , i. e. the doctrine of christ jesus , heb. . . the apostle of our confession . from the manner ( others not being excluded , as we are called thereunto , pet. . . ) in a church way , mat. . , . paul , cor. . . in a special manner commends the subjection of the obedience of the church astipulation of the corinthians : from its excellency , a good profession , tim. . . a good confession , v. . it s giving glory unto god , cor. . . it s victorious exemplarinesse in respect of men , rev. . . the blessing upon the sincere performance thereof , heb. . , . mat. . . with the heart man believeth unto righteousnesse , and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation . quest . . whether as large qualifications be not required of a members child to the participation of the lords supper , and the priviledges of votes and censures , as were requirable of his parents at their first entrance ? ans. the holding forth of faith and repentance with an ability to examine themselves , by way of confession , to the judgment of charity , were all requirable in the parent for admission into the church to full communion , and the same is requisite for the regular admission of the parents child being grown adult , unto his full communion with the church . for the clearing of this proposition two things are to be proved . . that they are to have faith and repentance . . that this faith and repentance must appear to others . first , they are to have faith & repentance . . because examination is the duty , and faith and repentance are the matter of their examination , without both the being and exercise of which , they cannot come worthily to the lords supper , which is the end of their examination . . from the end of the lords supper , which is instituted , not for regeneration , but for nourishment and confirmation . 't is a supper and a seal . that their faith and repentance ought to appear to others , is manifest thus ; the officers ought to be wise and faithful stewards , now to such it belongs not only to dispense a portion in reason , but to see also that those to whom it is dispensed , are meet to receive their portion , luke . . cor. . . the lords supper cannot regularly be administred to any receiver , concerning whom personally , according to truth , in the judgment of charity , the minister cannot say , take and eat , this is the body of the lord jesus which was given for you : but this the minister cannot say with good conscience to any one upon his meer having of faith and repentance without a visible holding forth of the same to others in their own persons , because both the exercise of reason and the exercise of grace are requisite to the taking and eating here required . as this proves the assertion concerning the officers , so cor. . , , . proveth the same concerning the whole body , because in a regular celebration of the lords supper , the whole church doth judge all the partakers thereof to have spiritual communion with christ crucified , and one with another as one body in him . it is the duty of the church and officers respectively ( as the keepers of the holy things ) so to discern between the holy and prophane , the clean and the unclean , as that the sacrament may onely be administred unto worthy receivers , ezek. . , , . but this cannot be , except the premised essentiall requisites be made appear to them in judgment of charity . concerning the power of voting , it is not rational that they should exercise a church-power as to the administration of church-ordinances , which voting implies , who themselves are unfit for all ordinances . they who are thus unfit will abuse the ordinances themselves , and admit and retain unworthy officers and members , and discourage the worthy , and therefore power in the hands of such is not for edification , but for destruction , contrary to the mind of christ , cor. . . quest . . whether by covenant seed , is meant the seed of immediate parents onely , or of remote also ? ans. the gospel by covenant seed , intends only the seed of immediate parents in church covenant , as appears from cor. . . the parents there spoken of are immediate parents , their progenitors were heathens . the gospel extends not the external covenant beyond the immediate parents : if neither of the immediate parents be in covenant , their children are unclean ; see the text . the next parent may bring in his seed , though his progenitors be unbelievers ; and the next parents may cut off their seed , though the progenitors be believers ; witnesse the instances of ishmael and esau , ier. . , . ezek. . . psal. . . mal. . . gen. . . otherwise there can no generation be given , where the covenant interest of posterity can expediently be bounded : depinge ubi sistam , shew us where we shall make our stand . the contrary exposeth the churches to inevitable and intollerable impurities . quest . . whether adopted children and bond servants be covenant-seed ? ans. adopted children and infant-servants , regularly and absolutely subjected to the government and dispose of such heads of families as are in church-covenant , though they cannot be said to be their natural seed , yet in regard the scriptures ( according to the judgment of many godly learned ) extend to them the same covenant priviledges with their natural seed , we judge not any churches who are like-minded with them , for their practise herein : all which notwithstanding , yet we desire at present to leave this question without all prejudice on our parts to after free disquisition . quest . . whether the child admitted by his fathers covenant , be also a deputy for his seed , without or before personal covenanting , or without & before like personal qualifications in kind , as his father was to enjoy when he became a deputy ? ans. the meaning of this question in other terms we conceive to be this ; whether the child of a person joyned in church-covenant by means of his or her immediate parents covenant , though such a parent be not admitted to , nor qualified for full communion , nor have covenanted in their own person , whether we say , the child of such a person is to be baptized : whereunto we answer , in these following propositions . propos. . infants either of whose immediate parents are in church-covenant , do confaederate with their parents , and are therefore church-members with them . see ans. to quest . . propos. . it is the duty of those infants when grown up to years of discretion , though not yet fit for the lords supper , to own the covenant they made with their parents , by entring thereinto in their own persons , and it is the duty of the church to call upon them for the performance thereof ; as appeareth by scripture examples of persons both called to , and entring into covenant , many of whom could not be looked upon as personally gracious , and therefore not fit for all ordinances and full communion , deut. . , . chron. . . chron. . , . where it is mentioned as the performance of a duty whereto they stand obliged by the covenant made in their infancy . propos. . being accordingly called thereunto , if after church-admonition and other due means with patience used , they shall refuse the performance of this great duty , or in case they shall ( notwithstanding like means applied ) any otherwise continue scandalous , it is the part of the church to proceed with them to the censure of excommunication , because the facts mentioned deserve excommunication , chron. . . mat. . . cor. . . thes. . , . and the persons are church-members , being confederate with their parents ; and the church as the matter requireth , administreth discipline to the members thereof , without respect of persons , according to their capacity , cor. . . tim. . . add hereunto the instance of those who are separated from the congregation , for their non-observance of that covenant , ezr. . , , . together with the examples of cain , ishmael , and esau , not a little contributing to the truth of this assertion , by way of proportion . propos. . in case they understand the grounds of religion , are not scandalous , and solemnly own the covenant in their own persons , wherein they give up both themselves and their children unto the lord , and desire baptism for them , we ( with due reverence to any godly learned that may dissent ) see not sufficient cause to deny baptism unto their children , these reasons for the affirmative being proposed to consideration . . church-members without offence and not baptized , are to be baptized . the children in question are church-members without offence and not baptized . therefore the children in question are to be baptized . . children in the covenant of abraham , as to the substance thereof , i. e. to whom the promise made to abraham , as to the substance thereof doth belong , are to be baptized . the children in question are children in the covenant of abraham , as to the substance thereof . therefore the children in question are to be baptized . . children in the same estate with those children under the law , unto whom the seal of the righteousnesse of faith , because in that estate was by institution divine to be applied , the precept for so doing not repealed , and the reason for so doing still remaining are to be baptized . but the children in question are children in the same estate ( viz. regularly in church-covenant ) with those children under the law , unto whom the seal of the righteousnesse of faith , because in that estate was by institution divine to be applied , the precept for so doing not repealed , and the reason for so doing still remaining . therefore the children in question are to be baptized . . either the children in question are to be baptized , or the gospel dispensation forbids the application of the seal unto children regularly in church-covenant , unto whom the mosaical dispensation commanded it to be applied . but the gospel despensation forbids not the application of the seal unto children regularly in church-covenant , unto whom the mosaical dispensation commanded it to be applied . therefore the children in question are to be baptized . the contrary opinion infers that the gospel bereaveth the children mentioned ( at least in a considerable degree ) of their glory , advantage , mercy , blessing , and that in this respect it casts reproach , yea brings disadvantage , a judgment , a curse upon them , iosh. . . rom. . , . & . , . this seems to be a lesse evangelicall tenent , the nature of the gospel being to enlarge and better , not to contract and diminish the external dispensation of grace . . children unto whom the gospel testifieth both the promise and baptisme by vertue of that promise , to belong , ought to be baptized . the children in question are children unto whom the gospel testifieth both the promise and baptism by vertue of that to promise , to belong , acts . . therefore the children in question ought to be baptized . obj. the parent though a church-member , owning the covenant in his own person , and qualified according to the premises , is not admitted to full communion , therefore the child ought not to be baptized . ans. the church-act onely , and not any other act ( much lesse defect ) of the parent is by divine institution , accounted to the child . the membership of the child is a distinct membership , from the membership of the parent . in case the parents membership ceaseth by death or censure , the membership of the child remaineth still . the membership of the child is the same in kind with , and not inferiour to the membership of the parent . membership is a relation , and therefore admits not of magìs and minùs , more or lesse : members are better or worse , and communion is more or lesse ; but membership admits not of degrees . benjamin an infant , but of an hour old , is as truly a son as reuben , a man of twenty two years of age . the child is baptized by vertue of his own membership , and not by vertue of his parents membership . the parents death is not with us an obstacle of the childs baptism . propos. . the same may be said concerning the children of such persons in question , who being dead or necessarily absent , either did or do give the churches cause in judgment of charity , to look at them as thus qualified , and such , as had they been called thereunto would so acted : for in charity that is here done interpretatively , which is mentioned in the fourth proposition expresly . propos. . though the persons forementioned own the covenant according to the premises , yet before they are admitted to full communion ( i. e. to the lords supper and voting ) they must so hold forth their faith and repentance , unto the judgment of charity by way of confession in the congregation , as it may appear unto the church , that they are able to examine themselves and to discern the lords body . see the proof hereof in ans. to quest . th . quest . . whether children begotten by an excommunicate person are to be baptized , he so remaining ? ans. we cannot for the present answer the following arguments for the negative . . persons excommunicate are not members , and the promise made to the seed , belongs ( under the gospel ) onely to the seed of immediate parents in covenant . . excommunicate parents are to be looked at in church account as heathens and publicans , now the church ought not to baptize the children of those which she is to account as heathens & publicans , because their children are unclean , cor. . . . to baptize the children of the excommunicate , is to have church-communion with the excommunicate : but those that we are forbidden to have civil communion with , cor. . . we are much more forbidden to have church communion with . quest . . whether a child born of a justly censurable person , yet not actually excommunicate , be to be baptized ? ans. we answer affirmatively . . because the child is a church-member by vertue of his covenanting with his parents . . because the foundation of the covenant membership of the child , is divine institution , which imputes the covenant act only , and not any other act of the parents to the child . quest . . whether a members childs unfitness for seals , disableth not his seed for membership or baptism ? ans. this question agreeing in scope with quest . . we refer thither for answer thereunto . quest . . whether a members child be censurable for any thing but scandalous actions , and not also for ignorance and inexperience ? ans. a members child ( like as it is with all other members ) is censurable only for scandalous sins , mat. . , . cor. . . consequently for ignorance and inexperience when scandalous , for all ignorance and inexperience though blameable , is not scandalous , rom. . . heb . . luke . . quest . . whether a members child must only examine himself , and may not be examined by others , of his fitnesse for seals ? ans. it is a duty of a members child to examine himself , and yet he is also subject to the examination of others . . because the elders are to give an account , which necessarily presupposeth that god hath given them power in some respects to take an account , heb. . . acts . . . it pertaineth to them to see that the holy things be not defiled , by the accesse of any unclean and unworthy person , ezek. . . mal. . , , . & . . . to teach by question and answer in the most profitable way , for the instruction and edification of the younger sort , and is commended occasionally , to the practise of the churches , gal. . . quest . . whether only officers must examine in private or else publike before the church ? ans. concerning their examination by the elders in private , the former reasons conclude affirmatively , whereunto may be added occasionally that iames and the elders contrive and prepare in private , for the more orderly and quiet transactions of things in publick , acts . , . 't is spiritual wisdom by preparing the stones beforehand , to prevent after noise in the building , kin. . . publick examination we also conceive to be regular , edification or due satisfaction of the church calling thereunto , yet alwaies orderly , that is , by approbation of the presbytery , and the immediate proposal of the questions by them , to the examinate , rev. . . cor. . . quest . . whether the same grown members child must not be examined of his charitable experience ▪ before baptism , as well as before the lords supper ? ans. we think the elders do well to take an account of children , concerning the principles of religion according to their capacity , before they be baptized . if the children spoken of in the question , be yet in their minority , their right unto baptism being founded consequently upon the covenant made in their parents ; this examination is to be looked at as conducing to the better application , but not to the being of their baptism . but if they be adult , they are to give an account of their faith and repentance , in their own persons , before they be baptized , acts . , . mat ▪ . . see ans. to quest th . quest . . whether baptized children sent away from the church for settlement , and not intending return , are continually to be accounted members ? ans. baptized children though locally removed from the church unto which they belong , are to be accounted members , until dismission , death or , censure dissolve that relation , because christ the institutor of this relation , onely by these waies dissolveth the same . quest . . whether historical faith and a blamelesse life fit a members child for all ordinances ▪ and priviledges , and he must be examined only about them ? ans. not only historical faith , i. e. the meer knowledge of the fundamental doctrine of faith and a blamelesse life , but also such an holding forth of faith and repentance , as unto judgment of charity sheweth an ability to examine themselves and to discern the lords body , is requisite to fit a members child for all ordinances and priviledges , and his blamelesse life notwithstanding , a members child is to be examined concerning the other qualifications . that both the having and holding forth of faith and repentance , are requisite to fit for all ordinances , see ans. to quest . th . that a meer historical faith and every blamelesse life is not sufficient to hold forth these qualifications , appears ; . an historical faith as meerly such , is insufficient , iam. . . . a blamelesse life is either taken for such a conformity of the external man to the letter , as exempts from censure , mat. . . phil. . . or for such a conformity of the whole man as in judgment of charity commends a person to the conscience of the beholder , as in measure spiritual , phil. . . & . . a blamelesse life in the first sense is not sufficient to qualifie for all ordinances , but for our fitnesse thereunto , the rule calleth for a blamelesse life in the second sense , matth. . , . iames . . besides the holding forth of faith and repentance according to the premises . quest . . whether if a church-member barely say , it repents me , though seventy times seven times following he relapse into the same gross evils , as lying , slander , oppression , &c. he be to be forgiven , and not censured ? ans. though we alwaies acknowledge that the holy one of israel is not to be limited by man or angel , as to the dispensation of his grace , yet so far as we remember the scriptures , seventy times seven times , i. e. ▪ relapses into the same grosse sin , and repentance is an instance not extant there . without the fruits meet for repentance , we are not called to forgive , mat. . . luk. . . notwithstanding a brother offends seventy times seven times , that is , many times , a definite number being put for an indefinite , yet whilst god enables him to repent , it is our duty to forgive . 't is not the number of offences , but the holding forth of repentance in the offender , that is the measure of our forgivenesse , mat. . . as god for christs sake forgave us ▪ so ought we to forgive one another , ephes. . . to say in words , i repent , and to gainsay it in deeds , is according to scripture , not to repent , yea , rather to continue in impenitency , tit. . . iam. . , . an ingenuous and solemn profession of repentance , nothing appearing to the contrary , is to be accepted as true repentance in the judgment of charity , luk. . . cor. . . quest . . whether a member under offence and not censured , or not with the highest censure , can authoritatively be denied the lords supper or other church-priviledges ? ans. . none but the church can authoritatively deny to the member his accesse unto the lords supper , because the power thereof is only delegated to that subject , mat. . . . the church cannot deny unto a member his accesse unto the lords supper , untill she hath regularly judged him to be an offender . . the censure of admonition is the first act whereby a church doth judicially declare a member to be an offender ; therefore till the censure of admonition be past , a member cannot authoritatively be denied communion in the lords supper , or other church-priviledges , because of offence . . after the sentence of admonition is past , the offender now admonished , may be ( yea thereby is ) authoritatively denied to come unto the lords supper , and to vote in the church , because he is judicially unclean , lev. . , . & . , . mat. . , . though he be not yet censured with the censure of excommunication . . all which notwithstanding , there are cases wherein a brother apparently discerned to be in a condition rendring him ( should he so proceed to the lords supper ) an unworthy communicant , may and ought regularly to be advised to forbear , and it is his duty to hearken thereunto . . yet two things are here carefully to be attended . . that brethren be not many masters , taking upon them to advise and to admonish others to abstain without cause , or before the time , iam. . . . that none forbear to come worthily , which is their duty , because to their private apprehension , another is supposed ( at least ) to come unworthily , which is their sin . . in case the church shall see cause to advise a member to forbear , and he shall refuse to hearken thereunto , his refusal being also a violation of church order , addeth contumacy to his offence , and thereby ripens the offender for censure . th . . boston . n. e. errata . pag. . l. . read act. . . p. . l. . r. act. . . p. . l. . r. cor. . . l. . r. act. . . p. . l. . for reason r. season . p. . l. . for church-act r. covenant-act . p. . l. , . r. would have so ▪ p. . l. . for in r. is . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- see the platform of church discipline , cap ▪ . §. . see the platform of discipline , cap. . §. .