A short answer to the tedious Vindication of Smectymnvvs by the avthor of the Humble remonstrance. Works. 1648 Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A45319 of text R4914 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing H417). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 158 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 60 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A45319 Wing H417 ESTC R4914 12792600 ocm 12792600 93954 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A45319) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 93954) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 255:E169, no 2) A short answer to the tedious Vindication of Smectymnvvs by the avthor of the Humble remonstrance. Works. 1648 Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656. [16], 103 p. Printed by Nathaniel Butter ..., London : 1641. The vindication of Smectymnuus was written by Stephen Marshall, Edmund Calamy, Thomas Young, Matthew Newcomen and William Spurstowe. Cf. BM. Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Smectymnuus. -- Vindication of Smectymnuus. Church of England -- Controversial literature. A45319 R4914 (Wing H417). civilwar no A short ansvver to the tedious Vindication of Smectymnuus· By the author of the humble remonstrance. Hall, Joseph 1641 28532 1 95 0 0 0 0 34 C The rate of 34 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-11 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2006-11 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A SHORT ANSWER TO THE Tedious Vindication OF SMECTYMNVVS . BY The AVTHOR of the Humble Remonstrance . LONDON , Printed for NATHANIEL BUTTER in Pauls Church-yard at the pyde-Bull neare St. Austins gate . 1641. TO The most High Court OF PARLIAMENT . Most Honorable LORDS , And ye most Noble KNIGHTS , CITIZENS , and BURGESSES of the House of COMMONS : NOthing could fall out more happily to me , then that my bold Adversaries have appealed to your inviolable Justice ; for sure I am , whiles you are ( as you ever wil be ) your selves , wise , and just , my cause cannot miscarry in your hands . With no lesse , therfore , but better grounded confidence , I cast my self upon your unpartiall judgement ; rejoycing to think , how clearly you will distinguish betwixt a facing boldnesse , and a modest Evidence of truth : How can I but receive courage from your pious , and just proceedings ? It is I that vindicate , these men oppose that holy Leiturgy , which your most religious Order in this Active session commanded to be intirely observed . How busie Faction is to crosse that your most seasonable Decree , every day yeelds new and lamentable proofs . If these indeavours of mine serve onely for the pursuance of your so necessary , and gracious Act ; they cannot fear to be unwelcome . But , if I have hurt a good cause , by a weak and insufficient handling , let me suffer in your censure , and let my Adversaries triumph in my sufferings . Contrarily , if after all their smooth insinuations , it shall be found , that this champertous combination hath gone about , by meer shews of proof , to feed the unquiet humors of men , in the unjust dislike of most justifiable , ancient , and sacred Institutions , and to cast false blames upon my peaceable and sincere managings of a certain Truth , let them passe for what they are , and feel that justice which they have appealed . An ANSWER TO A Calumniatory EPISTLE , Directed by way of PREFACE to the Reader . READERS , MY comfort is , that you have eyes of your own ; and know how to use them : With what gravity would our Smectymnuans else perswade you , that my late Defence is fraught with such stuff , as you shall finde undiscernable by any but their eyes ? You cannot well judge of the management of this quarrell , unlesse it will please you to receive notice how this fray began . It is not long since I sent forth a meek and peaceable Remonstrance , bemoaning the frequence of scandalous Pasquins , and humbly pleading for the just and ancient right of Leiturgie and Episcopacie . Wherein I could not suppose that any person could finde himself touched , save onely those , who profess friendship to Libells , enmity to the established forms : When all on the sudden , the Smectymnuans , a strange generation of men , unprovoked , unthought of , cry out of hard measure , and flye in my face , as men wrongfully accused ; I know them not , I hurt them not ; If their own guilt have galled them , that is no fault of mine ; A long and bitter Answer is addressed by them , where no question was moved : Insomuch , as I could hardly induce His Majestie , when I presented my Defence to His Royall hands , to beleeve , that any except on could be taken to so fair and innocent a Discourse : My labour was all for peace , even this is made the ground of the quarrell : What should I now do ? I were worse then a worm , if upon this treading upon , I did not turn again ; Yet , not so much out of respect to my own poor , and ( if need were ) despicable reputation , as to the publique cause of God , and his Church , which I saw now ingaged in this unjust brawl . According to my true duty , therefore , I published a short and defensive Reply to their long Answer ; wherein , I hope the judicious will witnesse , that the Truth sustains no losse : Now , inraged with a moderate opposition , they heat their furnace seven times more , and break forth into a not more voluminous , then vehement Invective . I do not see them look cleeringly through their fingers , at their seeminglyunknown , ( yet often discovered , and oft vilified ) Antagonist ; it is all one , so long as he is namelesse ; if he be a Consul , they are Senators ; Civility is but a Ceremony ; All faces under masks are alike ; It matters not for the person , let it please you to look at the cause : In the carriage whereof , they first tax me , with over-lashing in my accusations ; I had objected to them , mis-allegations , misinterpretations , mis-inferences , weak and colourable proofs ; neither can their querulous noise make me go lesse , or be lesse confident in my charge . They liken themselves to Cato , and well may , they are extremely like ; of thirty accusations , no one could be proved against Cato ; of no fewer charges , which are laid upon them , I see not how they acquit themselves of one . Who can but wonder at this eminent boldnesse , that they dare tell you , There are ( after all my generall exclamations ) but four places , for which I tax them of falshood ? Falshood , is their own word ; Mis-allegation is mine : Be pleased to cast your eye upon my Margin , and to count this quaternion of their imputed errors : But they are mis-inferences , and weak inconsequences , which ( besides mis-citations ) were upon the file of my accusations ; wherein I fear Cato's number will be out-vyed . Readers , such fidelity , as you finde in the deniall of my manifest exceptions against their allegations , look for in the demonstrative proofs of their exceptions against mine . There is belike , a Machiavel somewhere , finde him out , I beseech you , and let him be brought forth to shame ; certainly , where the falshood lies , there he lurks . In the second place they tell you of raylings , revilings , scornings , never the like since Montagues Appeal ; and present you with a whole bundle of such strange flowers of Rhetorick , as truly , I wondred should ever grow in my Garden ; wherein , they have done passing wisely , in not noting the Pages , as the severall beds , wherein such rare plants grew ; for I have carefully re-examined the Book , and professe seriously , that some of them I cannot finde at all ; others I finde , but utterly mis-applied ; We are called ( they say ) Vain , frivolous cavillers , riotous , proud , false , envious , &c. Let me appeal to your eyes , Readers ; where ever I thus wronged those , whom I call Brethren ? Divers of these words I confesse to have used , but to another purpose , upon a different subject ; that which I speak of the things , they unjustly take of the persons : For example ; I talk of false , and frivolous exceptions ; They say , I call them false and frivolous men : I talk of vain cavills ; They charge me to say , they are vain cavillers : I speak of a riot of assailants ; They cry out , that I call them riotous men : I say , a suggestion is envious ; They take it to themselves : I call the Libellers , Factious persons ; They mis-apply it , as spoken of them : I say an intimation is witlesse and malicious ; I am taken to say the men are so : And not to weary you with so odious a rabble , I say , this is weakly and absurdly objected ; They say , I call them weak and absurd men . Thus , I could easily passe through the rest ; and shew you , that what I speak by way of supposition , they take absolutely ; what I speak as dehorting , they as accusing ; what of speeches , they of persons ; what of others , they of themselves : And thus rises the rare Rhetorick which they have imputed to me ; wherein I doubt not , but ye my Readers , will take occasion to think , what fidelity shall we expect from these men , in citing other Authors , when they do so foully mis-report the Book in our hand ? They arenot then my flowers , but their own weeds , which they have thus bundled up together . But had I so far over-lashed , as is pretended , your wisdom , Readers , would send you to inquire of the provocation : For surely , the occasion may , if not justifie a mans act , yet abate his blame ; When therefore ye shall look back , and see with what strange insolence I was intertained by these undertakers , ye will be so far from complaining of my sharpnesse , that ye will rather censure my patience ; How blinde self-love will make men in their own concernments ? These men will not see in themselves that true guilt , which they unjustly cry out of , in another : So , I have heard a man with a very noysome breath , censure the ill lungs of his neighbour ; Let my Margin present thee , Reader , with but an handfull out of a full sack . These are their terms in their verie first papers ; without any pretence of imitation : But if we should rake together the scornfull , girding and ( as some of their betters have styled them ) unmannerly passages of this their angry vindication , it were enough to fill a Book alone . Readers , ye may , if you please , beleeve , how easie it were for me , to pay them home in their own coyn ; But I had rather to consider what is fit for me ( how namelesse soever ) to give , then what they are worthy to receive : Some others may perhaps be more sensible of this indignity then my self ; who have learned to think more meanly of my self , then they can speak ; and at once both to pitie this petulancie , and dis-regard it . In the third place they talk of daring protestations , and bold asseverations ; and spend some instances of the particular expressions of my confidence . Do not think , Readers , that I will be beaten out with words ; there is no one line of those passages , which they have recited , that I will not make good against all the clan of Smetymnuus . Neither can I , out of this assurance , decline any Bar under Heaven , for the triall of my righteous cause ; It is therefore an unreasonably envious suggestion of theirs , that in dedicating my Book to His Sacred Majestie , I did , ever the more , flye from the judgement of Parliament ; when in that very Epistle , I made confident mention of my secure reliance upon the noble justice of their Iudicature ; Besides , that it is not too wise , nor too loyall an intimation of these men , which would imply such a distance betwixt Soveraign , and Parliamentary interest : For me , I would ever suppose such an entire union betwixt them , as the head and the body ; that they neither should , nor can be severed in the rights of their severall concernments . As for that resolute averment of the Author of Episcopacie by Divine Right , That he offers to forfeit his life to Iustice , and his reputation to shame , if any living man can shew any Lay-Presbyter ( not as they please to report the word , a Ruling Elder ) in the world , till Farell and Viret first created him ; Let me be his hostage ; let my life go for his , if any one such Lay-Presbyter can be produced . Let them search Records , and try their skill ; and when they have overcome , triumph . But in the mean time , they may not think to fob us off , with the colourable testimonies of B. Whitgift , King , Saravia , who were all well known to be just so good friends to Lay-Presbytery , as themselves are to Episcopacie . For the rest , If I have been somewhat bold with them , in telling them , right-down , of poor arguments , verball exceptions , meer declamations , shuffling of testimonies , unproving illustrations , I may crave your pardon , Readers , but theirs I cannot ; as not conscious of any ill-placed word , in this easie Censure . Shortly , my much reverenced friend , learned Rivetus , will give them but a little thanks in mis-applying his censure of Bishop Montague , to a man so differently tempered , whom he hath with particular respects vouchsafed to honor , and oblige . In the fourth place , they tell you , that after all these Thrasonicall boasts of mine , if their whole Book were divided into four parts , there is one quarter , of which I make no mention : Wherein , Readers , I think verily you may beleeve them ; For in the first leaf of my Defence , I fore-told you so much ; as finding nothing in that swollen bulk , but a meer unsound Tympanie , instead of a truly solid conception ; whereof you may easily perceive the one half ( well neer ) bestowed either in meer verball quarrells , or in reall disputes of things uncontroverted . I am more thrifty of my good hours , then to follow them in so wilde a chace : pitching , onely , upon those points , which I conceived to be valuable , and pertinent ; wherein my profession was , so to save time , as that I should not lose ought of truth : It is an injurious suggestion therefore , which these men make , that where their proofs are strongest , there I have glided away without answer ; since I can safely call God to witnesse unto my soul , that I am not conscious to my self of any one considerable argument of theirs , that I have balked in my replicatory Defence : But if in their estimation , there be any such , as wherin they have placed an over-weening confidence , let them not spare to re-inforce it to the utmost ; that the world may witness their valour , and my cowardise . What need is there of this , you will say , when they have already gloried in the victory ; vaunting , that they have me , confitentem reum ; and , in effect , the cause granted by me , in those things which are most materiall ? Were it so , Readers , as they pretend , that I come neerer to their Tenets , then some others ; one would think they should , in this , finde cause to acknowledge , and imbrace mine ingenuity , rather then to insult upon me , as in way of disgrace . I wis , it is not the force of their argutation , that could move me one foot forward ; but if Gods blessing upon my free disquisition of truth , should have so wrought upon my better-composed thoughts , as that I should have yeelded to go some steps further then others , towards the meeting of peace , one would not think this should yeeld any fit matter of exprobration ; But , the truth is , I have not departed , one inch , from either my own Tenet , or from the received judgement of our Orthodox Divines . Now that they may see the fault is not in my levity , but in their own mis-understanding ; that Identity of the names and offices of Bishops and Presbyters , in the beginning of the Apostles times , whereat they take advantage , they may see averred , at large , in Episcopacie by Divine Right , 2. Part. § . 4. and , to second it , they are challenged in my Defence , to name any one of our Writers , that hath not proclaimed this truth ; Where then lyes the contradiction ? The clear nominall distinction of the three Orders of Bishops , Presbyters , Deacons , I professed to prove onely out of the writings of those , who were the next successors to the Apostles ; What is here of either yeeldance or contradiction ? And if I have ingenuously granted , that the Primitive Bishops were elected by the Clergie , with the assent of the people ; That Bishops neither do , nor may challenge to themselves such a sole interest in Ordination , or Iurisdiction , as utterly to exclude Presbyters from some participation in this charge , and Act ; That they ought not to devest themselves of their Iurisdictive power , by delegating it to others ; That the ordinary managing of secular imployments is improper for them ; If , in all these , I have gratified them , why do they complain ? and if I have disadvantaged my cause , why is it not urged to my conviction ? It is warily said of these men , that I almost grant Lay-Elders in Antiquity ; I do so almost grant them in my own sense , that I utterly deny them in theirs : Why should I make any doubt to yeeld unto the Iustice of their complaints , in the Post-script against the insolence , and tyrannie of Popish Prelates ? What lose we by this condescent ? Or how can they plead they are not justly taxed for diffusing other mens crimes to the innocent , when their consciences cannot but flye in their faces for this injustice ? Lastly , I am charged with shamefull self-contradictions , which surely must needs argue great rashnesse , or much weaknesse of judgement . See the instances ; In the same Epistle , I professe not to tax their abilities , and yet call them impotent assailants : And why not both of these ? He that taxeth not their abilities , doth not therfore presently approve them ; they may , perhaps , not want good abilities in themselves , and yet be unable to prove their cause ; they may be able men , and yet impotent matches . The contradiction they would raise in the words concerning Euangelists , is meerly cavillatory ; May you be pleased to turn to the ninety fourth Page of my Defence , you shall clearly acknowledge it . The word in a common sense , signifies any Preacher of the Gospel ; but in the peculiar sense of the New Testament , it signifies some persons extraordinarily gifted , and imployed ; not setled in any one place , but sent abroad by the Apostles on that blessed errand : Now , to say that any of these latter were such as had ordinary places , and ordinary gifts , ( as they do , Sect. 13. pag. 48. ) I do justly blame as a meer fancie , not herein contradicting any thing , but their light imagination . In the contradiction pretended to be , concerning the extent of Episcopacie , sure they cannot but check themselves ; In my Remonstrance and Defence , they report men to say somewhere ( but , where , no man can tell ) that Bishops had been every where ; and , that all Churches through the whole Christian world , have uniformly , and constantly maintained Episcopacie ; Elswhere , that I say they were not every where , and that there are lesse noble Churches that do not confer to Episcopall government ; Words are more easily accorded , then acknowledged ; There are not , there have not been every where setled Christian Churches ; Where ever there have been setled Christian Churches , there have been Bishops ; From the Apostles times to this present Age , there have been Bishops in all Christian Regions ; now , some late Reformed Churches have been necessitated to forbear them ; Where , I beseech you , lies the contradiction ? I have often granted , that the name of Bishops , and Presbyters was , at the first , promiscuously used , and yet , I do no lesse justly maintain , that for this sixteen hundred years , the name of Bishops hath been ordinarily appropriated ( in a contra-distinctive sense ) to Church-governors in an apparent superiority . Distinguish times , and reconcile Histories . The two next exceptions concerning Diocesan Bishops , and Civill government , are fully cleared and convinced in the due places of this insuing Answer ; I shall not blur paper in an unseasonable anticipating my own Discourse . Sole Ordination , and sole Iurisdiction , we so disclaim , as that we hold the power of both , primarily in the Bishop , the concurrent assistance in the Presbyters ; What opposition is there in an orderly subordination ? The last contradiction clearly reconciles it self : In stating the question concerning Episcopacie , I distinguish betwixt Divine and Apostolicall Authority , professing , not to affirm that Bishops were immediatly ordained by Christ ; and yet averring , that Christ laid the grounds of this imparity in his first agents ; What discordance is in these two ? Is the ground-work of an house , the whole frame of it ? Can they finde the roof in the foundation ? In the Epistles to the seven Asian Churches , Christ ( I truly say ) acknowledges ( at least intimates ) the Hierarchie of those seven Angels : Do I imply that he did immediately ordain them ? Readers , ye have seen the poor stuff of these their selected exceptions : Beleeve it , such are all their contradictions to me , as these contradictions which they finde in me , to my self , groundlesse , and worthlesse : As I shall make good in this following Discourse , concerning the ancient , holy , and beneficiall use of set-Leiturgies in the Church . This subject , because , as it is untracked with any frequent pens of others , so it is that , wherein my Adversaries seem most to pride themselves , ( as supposing to have in it the most probable advantages against me ) I have somewhat largely handled , to your ample satisfaction . But , as for that other head of Episcopacie , which hath already filled so many rhemes of waste-paper , for as much as I see they offer nothing , but that which hath passed an hundred ventilations , Transeat . I have resolved to bestow my time better , then in drawing this Sawe to and fro , to no purpose . Let them first give a full , and punctuall Answer to that , which hath been already , in an intire body of a Treatise , written concerning the Divine Right of Episcopacie ; and then , let them expect , that I should trouble my self with sweeping away these loose scraps of their exceptions . Till then , let them , if they can , be silent , at least I shall ; as one that know how to give a better account of the remainder of my precious hours . A Short ANSWER To the Tedious VINDICATION OF SMECTYMNVVS . SECT. I. I Am sorry , Brethren , that your own importunitie will needs make you guiltie of your further shame : Had you sate down silent in the conscience of a just reproof , your blame had been by this time dead , and forgotten ; but now , your impetuous Defence shall let the world see , you did in vain hope to face out an ill cause with a seeming boldnesse . I may not spend Volumes upon you , but some Lines I must : enow to convince the Reader of the justice of my Charge , and the miserable insufficiencie of your Vindication ; It is not your stiff deniall that can make it other then Gods truth , which I maintain , or that can justifie your Errors ; Let the cause speak for it self , and let that great Moderator of Heaven , to whom we both appeal , judge . It was a light touch , that I gave to your Grammaticall slip of Areopagi ; wherein it would not have hurt you , to have confessed your over-sight ; had you yeelded that you stumbled , though withall you say , You stumbled like Emperors , we could have passed it over with a smile ; but now , that you will needs fall into a serious contestation , and spend almost a whole leaf in a faulty Defence ; I must tell you , that you make this an hainous trifle : To face out wilfully the least errour , is no lesse then a crime ; and such is this of yours , as every true Grammarian knows : I doubt not , but you had heard of Dionysius Areopagita ; but if you should have cited him under the name of Dionysius Areopagus , every Scholar would have laughed you to scorn : Had you said , The admired sons of Iustice , the Areopagus ; I grant it had been good , according to that which you cite out of Sarisburiensis ; but to say , The admired sons of Iustice , the Areopagi , no Grammar , no authoritie can bear you out ; and however you face it , that you can bring precedents enow , out of approved Authors , name but one , and take all : That of Sarisburiensis , which you alledge , is altogether for me , against your selves : he sayes that Senate of Athens was called Areopagus ; so said my Margin before : But what is this to your false Latine ? Brethren , this matter of Latinity is but a straw , but let me say , this willing defence of a plain falshood , is a block , which your very friends cannot but stumble at ; and how can the Reader choose but think , he that will wilfully stand in the defence of a known falshood in Language , will not stick to defend a known Errour in his cause ? Before , ye stumbled ; now , ye fall : rise up for shame in a just confession , and look better to your feet hereafter . But belike , you have not a better facultie in stumbling , then I in leaping : and talk of huge great blocks that I have over-skipped in this whole Book : Where are they , which be they , Brethren ? If such were , they are , I hope , still visible ; shew them me , I beseech you , that I may yet trie my skill : You instance in some words sounding to contempt ; I thought what these blocks would prove : meer matter of words , not lesse windy , then the froth of your next Paragraph ; wherein your gravitie is set upon a merrie pin ; and , in a becoming jeer , tells us of the Gentleman student in Philosophy , that desires to learn the rare secret of the sinking of froth ; for which , I remit you , and your deep student , to the next Tapster . IT is not all your shuffling that can shift the just charge of your grosse uncharitablenesse ; The Remonstrance comparing in a generall notion , the forms of Civil government and Ecclesiasticall , expresses it in these Terms ; [ Since if Antiquitie may be the rule , the civill Polity hath sometimes varied , the Sacred , never ; And if originall authoritie may carry it , that came from arbitrarie imposers , this from men inspired : ] then which , no word can be in a right sense more safe , or more innocent : Your good glosse appropriates what ( in thesi ) was spoken of all forms of Civil government , to our particular Monarchy ; and tels your Reader , that I deliver it as Arbitrary , & Alterable ; then which , there cānot I suppose be any sclander more dangerous ; and to mend the matter now in your Vindication , you redouble your most injurious charge upon the Remonstrant , as if upon this ground , it could follow that to attempt the alteration of Monarchicall governement , had beene , in his opinion , lesse culpable then to petition the alteration of Episcopall ; quite contrary to the expresse words of my Remonstrance ; whose implication is no other then this , That , if it were capitall in them who indeavored to alter the formes of Civill government , they must needs seeme worthy of more then an easie censure , that went about in a Libellous way to worke the change of a setled government in the Church . See , Reader , this latter is in the Remonstrants judgement , worthy of more then an easie censure , the others accusation is no lesse then deadly : Whether now doth hee hold lesse culpable ? Truly , brethren , if you be not ashamed of this unjust crimination , I hope some body will blush for you . With how bold a face dare you appeale to the Reader , yea to the most honourable Parliament , and to the Sacred Majesty of our Soveraigne , that you doe the man no wrong ? Joyne issue then and let all these judge : First you say , one of the most confident Advocates of Episcopacy , hath said , that where a Nationall Church is setled in the orderly regiment of certaine grave Overseers , to seeke to abandon this forme , and to bring in a forraine Discipline is as unreasonable , as to cast off the yoke of just and hereditary Monarchy , and to affect many-headed Soveraignty ; This you think an assertion insolent enough , that sets the Mitre , as high as the Crowne ; But what a foule injury is this ? Reader doe but view the place , and see , where the Mitre stands : The words run thus : [ So were it no lesse unreasonable where a Nationall Church is setled in the orderly regiment of certaine grave Overseers , ruling under one acknowledged Soveraign , by wholsome and unquestionable Laws , and by these Laws punishable if they overlash : &c. ] Say now , Reader , whether this man sets the Mitre as high as the Crowne ? Neither doth hee say , it were no lesse haynous , ( for the difference of the morality is excepted before ) but , no lesse unreasonable : as that which is there said to argue a strange brain-sick giddinesse in either offence . Yet more anger ; The Remonstrant rises higher and sets the Mitre above the Crown ? Wherein , I beseech you , brethren ? What a Woolseian insolence were this ? Hee tels us ( you say ) that Civill government came from Arbitrary imposers , the Sacred from men inspired ; now Civill government here includes Monarchy ; therefore this is to advance Episcopacy above Monarchy ; since the one challenges God for the Founder , the other humane arbitrement . Brethren , had your argument as much reason , as spight , it would presse sore : now , as you have framed it , it is a meere cavill . The Remonstrant speaks of all Civill government in generall ; the severall formes whereof amongst severall nations , and people , no reasonable man can deny were introduced variously , according to the first institution of their Founders ; What error can your sharpe eyes finde in this proposition ? Now , you will needs draw this by an envious application to Monarchy , as if I meant to derive it onely from men , not from God : Ye are mistaken , brethren : they are your better friends , that thus deduce Monarchy ; For us , wee hold it is from God , by men , from God as the author & ordainer , by men , as the meanes ; wee fetch it not from earth , but from heaven ; wee know who said , By me Kings raigne ; and from him we derive their Crownes and Scepters : But yee may know ( which we have oft blusht , and sighed to see laid in our dish , by Popish Authors ) who it was that said ; Kings , Princes and Governors have their authority of the people , and upon occasion they may take it away againe , as men may revoke their proxies : who it was that said , It is not enough for subjects not to obey , but they must withstand wicked Princes . Sure they were no fautors of Episcopacy , that have written so bloody lines against the safety , and lives of lawful Princes , as I dare not transcribe ; that have so undervalued their power , and so abased their originall ; small reason had you to twit me with this hatefull guilt . It is but a poor put-off , that you censure not my words as treasonable , from my pen , which from yours had received no better construction : The words are the same , the intimation evident ; and not lesse evincible , then your vilifying of the judgement of that wise , & ( above all examples ) learned K. Iames ; whom whiles you smooth in words , and directly oppose in his well-grounded Edict , concerning the Liturgy of the Church , what do you but verbally praise , and really check ? Ye cannot therefore so easily wipe off these aspersions of uncharitablenesse , by either stiffe deniall , or unjust recrimination ; For me , such is my malice towards you , that I can at once convince your want of charitie , and forgive it . IF the Religion of King William Rufus , or the infallible judgement of Pope Pius may do you any service , make your best of them ; to me they are much alike . Whatsoever Daniel ( the Poet , not the Prophet ) pleased to say ; All Historians were not Monks , nor all Monks false-tongued ; Would God all Divines were true : The actions of this Prince blazon him more , then the Historians pens ; whereof some have taxed him for favour of Judaisme , others for touches of Atheisme , all for indevotion : As for the Bishops of those times , I say they were Popish , and , in that notion , tyrannicall ; for that dependance which they had upon him , who exalts himself above all that is called GOD , exalted them to their proud contestation with Princes . It was their Popery therefore , that made them insolent , and their insolence , that made them odious to Kings . It hath been ( ye say ) the usuall quality of former and later Bishops , to tyrannize over such as fear them , and to flatter such as they fear : Your tongues are your own ; But , Brethren , if this be their qualitie , it is your fault that you will not suffer it to be their propertie : There are those that can do this , and more ; can tyrannize over those whom they ought to reverence , and flatter those whom they should not fear . As for your Pius ; should not the Pope have been my Antichrist , I am sure he is yours ; Little reason therefore could you have , to use his testimonie against your own profession . But , Why may we not ( you say ) use the testimony of Antichrist , against Antichristian Bishops ? Brethren , I understand you not ; I hope you have more grace , then to call ours so : If you have so much of the Separatist in you , many good hearts will justly grieve to see that ye pretend to come forth under License ; sure you dare not mean , you dare not say , that the publique Government established here by Law , is Antichristian ; this were to strike where you would not ; or , if you could be so bold , Authoritie might over-see , but would never allow so lawlesse an affront : If our Bishops be Antichristian , whence is your Ordination ? Good speed may you have , Brethren , towards Amsterdam . Full wittie , and sound is the inference which you draw from the grounds , which I give of the Popes unwillingnesse to yeeld a Divine Right to Bishops ; for that hee would have them derive their authoritie meerly from himself : Therefore ( say you ) it follows , That they have no more Divine Right , then the Pope : Just ; for the Pope thinks so ; pretending his own ( false ) Right , and disclaiming their true . But what 's this ( I ask ) to our Bishops , who professe notwithstanding the Apostolicall , that is , Divine Right of their calling , to hold the places and exercise of their Jurisdiction , wholly from His Majestie : You answer , [ Surely ours have begun to affect the same exemption from secular power ; to make large and haughty strides , towards an independent Hierarchie . ] Where , or wherein , Brethren ? Will any Justice hold it enough to accuse ? I challenge your instances , If you can finde an universall guiltinesse this way , spare us not ; I shall yeeld , we cannot suffer too much : But if your exceptions be either none , ( as your silence argues ) or particular , why should not you smart for the unjust branding of a whole Order ? Me thinks you should shame and feare to speake of our affected independence of Hierarchy , when ye know that an independent parochiall Hierarchy ( if it could be worth so high a name ) is in publique Pamphlets , and open Sermons set a-foote with much earnestnesse by those , who would be thought no meane ones in your fraternity ; And when you cannot but know , that the Bishops Bench is openly challenged in the name of too much dependence upon Soveraignty ? Away with these idle sclanders of your innocent , grave , and modest governors . For Mr Hooker , we know you love and honour his memory , dearly , nothing of his can be unwelcome to us ; neither doubt we , but that you will bee no lesse edified by his last works , if they may see the light , then with his first ; That man doth not looke , as if hee meant to contradict his owne truths . YE doubt to bee chid for this licentiousnesse of your pen ; and so you well may ; for it can be no lesse then a foule sclander to charge that faction upon whole Episcopacy , which you dare ( upon urging ) impute but to a few . The more ( ye say ) is your misery , that a few Bishops can put both the Kingdomes into so dangerous a combustion . True ; But , if it be your miserie , it is not our sinne ; Blame the guilty , strike not the innocent : But , if but a few can doe this ( ye say ) what a stir would they all make , if they should unite their powers ? This is in your owne phrase argumentum galeatum ; If a few factious Preachers in our neighbour Pulpits , since the entring of this Parliament , have kindled such a fire in the City , and Kingdome , what would they all do , if their seditious tongues were all united ? But now , ye speake to purpose ; If but a few were factors for this attempt ; how was it that one of the Episcopall tribe in open Court called the Scottish designe , Bellum Episcopale ? Who can forbeare to smile at this doughty proofe ? Why , Brethren , was that word too big for one mans mouth ? Could hee not utter it without help of his fellowes ? Did they either say , or think it , the more , because hee spake it ? What reason have you to feoffe a private conceit on all ? especally when the words may be capable of a lesse evill construction , as referring to the Northerne rise of that quarrell , not to our prosecution . But , where ( ye say ) were the rest of the peaceable and orthodoxe Bishops the while ? Truly in all likelyhood , at home , quietly , in their own Sees ; in their retired studies ; without notice of any plots , without any intimation of dangers ; much more without intermedling in any secrets of State , or close stratagems of disturbance ; So as , it was not their love to peace and truth , that could oppose , what they never could reach to know : Neither is it any fault of theirs , that the deare and precious name of Episcopacie is exposed to base and vulgar obloquie . Let those who will needs poure contempt upon the guiltlesse , looke for a just revenge from him , who hath said , Touch not mine anointed , and doe my Prophets no harme . Still therefore must I take leave to crie , Fie , upon those my Brethren , that dare to charge faction upon Episcopacie , and withall to deplore the unhappy mis-cariages of any of our spirituall Fathers , that shall be found guiltie of these wofull broyles . What Cyprian would have done upon occasion of so high an indignitie offered by you to that holy function , appeares sufficiently in his Epistle to Rogatianus ; though no instance can come home to the point ; For , let me boldly say , that since Christianitie lookt forth into the world , there were never so high , and base scornes put upon Episcopacie , as there have been by shamelesse Libellers within the space of this one yeare in this Kingdome ; yea in this Citie : God in his great mercie forgive the authors , and make them sensible of the danger of his just vengeance . SECT. II. VVHat a windie Section have you past , wherein you confesse you have striven for words ? Things , you say , shall now follow ; Things well worthy to bee not more precious to the Remonstrant , then to every well-minded Christian ; Leiturgie and Episcopacie . Leiturgie leads the way ; We had need to begin with our prayers . I challenged you for the instances of those many alterations you talked of , in the present Leiturgie ; You answer me , Truly Sir , if we were able to produce no fuller evidence of this , then you have done of your Iewish Leiturgie ever since Moses time , we should blush indeed ; but if we can bring forth such instances , &c. Truly Brethren , you could do little , if ye could not crack and boast : the greatest cowards can do this best ; Do not say , what ye can do , but do what ye say ; Put it upon this very issue . For the Leiturgie ( ye say ) we can bring forth instances of such alterations as shall prove this present Leiturgie to be none of that which was confirmed by Parliamentary Acts . Mark well , Readers , for certainly , in plain English , these men go about to mock you : The question is of the present Leiturgie , which is pretended to vary extremely much from that in Queen Elizabeths daies ; Now come our braving Vindicators , and , after all their brags , labour to shew that this our present Leiturgie differs from that in the daies of Edward the sixt ; and spend one whole Page , in the particular instances : Is not this pains well bestowed , think you ? have they not hit the bird in the eye ? utterly balking what they undertook , they undertake what no man questioned ; and now before-hand crow , and triumph in these cockle-shels of a famous conquest . But ye lay this for your ground , That the Leiturgie confirmed by our Parliamentary Acts , is the same which was made and confirmed in the fifth and sixth of Edward the sixt : With one alteration , or addition of certain Lessons to be used on every Sunday in the yeer , and the form of the Letany altered and corrected ; and two sentences onely added in the delivery of the Sacrament to the Communicant , and none other or otherwise ; Thus sayes the Act. Now comes your rare sagacity , and findes notwithstanding , Queen Elizabeths Leiturgie varying from the former in many omissions , in many additions , in many alterations : Wherein , what do ye other then give the check to a whole Parliament ? they say flatly , None other , or otherwise ; you say , The Book is so altered , that the Leiturgie now in use , is not the same that was established by Act of Parliament : But , be that as it may ; there lies not the question : If Queen Elizabeths Book did so much differ from King Edwards ; What is that to us ? Say , ( as you have undertaken ) what such huge difference there is betwixt King Iames his Book , and Queen Elizabeths ? Now , your loud vaunts end in flat silence ; neither can you instance in any thing , save some two pettie Particles , not worthie of mention ; that in the title of Confirmation , the words For imposition of hands , are added ; and , in the Epistle for Palm-Sunday , In , is turned into At : These are all ( besides those which I fore-specified ) which have so mis-altered the Leiturgie , that it can no more be known , to be it self , then the strangely-disguised Dames , which were mentioned in Doctor Halls reproof . Now let the Reader say , who is worthie to wear those Liveries of Blushes , which , in your Wardrobe of Wit , you have been pleased to lay up for your friends . But I have not yet said all : If ( you say ) to these we should adde the late alterations in the use of the Leiturgie , bringing in loud Musick ; uncouth , and unedifying Anthems ; a pompous superstitious Altar-service , we think any indifferent eye will say , this is not the Leiturgie established by Parliament . What mean you , Brethren , thus to delude the Reader ? are these things you mention , any part of the Leiturgie ? are they prescribed by any law of the Church ? are they found in any Rubrick of the Communion-book ? Do not the allowed Forms of our publique Prayers in all Parochiall , and some Cathedrall Churches , in Chappels , in houses , stand intirely without these ? Why do you therefore bring in these things , as essentiall to Leiturgie ; In the meet omission of some whereof , no doubt , some Bishops of England ( no lesse zealously conscionable , though better tempered , then your selves ) may be found to conspire with you : As for the namelesse Bishop , whom you cite , you must pardon me , if I did not understand either you , or him ; for the words in your Defence , run , [ That the Service of the Church of England is not so dressed , that if a Pope should come and see it , he would claim it as his own . ] Now you report them to be , That the Service of the Church of England is now so drest , &c. so as you cannot blame me if I knew not the meaning or the man ; But by this your description of his preaching it as matter of humiliation to all the Bishops of this Kingdome , in a day of solemne and nationall fasting , I perceive it is the Reverend Bishop of Carlile whom you thus cited , and whom you have , herein , not a little wronged ; I acquainted that worthy Prelate with the passage , he disavows the words , and defies the reporters , vehemently protesting , that he never spake either those words , or that sense ; and to make it good , delivered me the pretended clause , transcribed out of his notes , with his owne hand ; which I reserve by me ; no whit sounding that way ; but signifying onely a vehement dislike of some innovations , as the turning the Table to an Altar , and the low crindging towards the Altar so erected ; but , as for the Leiturgy or Service of the Church of England , not a touch of either in his thoughts , or tongue : Now brethren , learne you hence just matter of private humiliation , for so foule a sclander of a grave and religious Bishop , and in him , of this whole Church . For learned Calvin ; if those who professe to honour his name , would have beene ruled by his judgement , wee had not had so miserable distractions in the Church , as wee have now cause to bewaile ; all that I say of him , is , that his censure of some tolerable fooleries in our holy Service , might well have beene forborne in alienâ Republicâ ; your vindication is , that hee wrote that Epistle to the English at Francford ; Who doubts it ? The parties were proper , the occasion just , but not the censure ; Parciùs ista , when wee meddle with other mens affaires : I may well be pardoned , if I say that harsh phrase doth not answer the moderation which that worthy Divine professeth to hold in the controversie of the English . AS for that unparalleld Discourse , whereon you run so much descant , concerning the Antiquity of Liturgies deduced so high as from Moses time ; you argue that it cannot be , because you never read it : Brethren , your not omniscient eyes shall see that my eyes are so Lyncean , as to see you proudly mis-confident ; you shall see that others have seene what you did not ; and shall sample that which you termed , unparalleld . It is neither thank to your bounty , nor praise to your ingenuity , that the question is halfe-granted by you ; but an argument of your self-contradiction ; An order of Divine service you yeeld , but not a forme ; or a forme , but not prescribed , not imposed ; and for this , you tell us a tale of Iustin Martyrs Leiturgie , and Tertullians Leiturgie , how much to the purpose , the sequell shall shew . In the former , you grant , that after the Exhortation they all rose , and joyned in prayer ; prayer ended , they went to the Sacrament ; but , whether these prayers were suddainly conceived , or ordinately prescribed , there is the question ; and whether that Sacrament were administred in an arbitrary , and various forme , mee thinks your selves should finde cause to doubt : But , Iustin saies ( to cleare this point ) that in the beginning of this Action , the President powred out prayers , and thanksgiving according to his ability , and the people said Amen . What ever his ability was , I am sure you have a rare ability in mis-construing the Fathers ; and particularly these testimonies of Iustin , and Tertullian . To begin with the latter ; out of him you say , The Christians in those times did in their publike assemblies pray , Sine monitore , quia de pectore ; without any prompter but their own heart . Prove , first , that Tertullian speaks of publike assemblies . Secondly , know that if he did , the place is to your disadvantage ; for ( as a late learned Author well urges ) would ye have it imagined , that the assembled Christians did betake themselves publikely to their private devotions , each man by himself , as his own heart dictated ? this were absurd , and not more against ancient practise , then ( as your selves think ) piety . Was it , then , that not the people , but the Minister was left to the liberty of his expressions ? What is that to the people ? How did they ere the more pray without a prompter ? How is it more out of their heart , when they follow the Minister praying out of unknown conceptions , then out of foreknown prescription ? So as , you must be admonished , that your Sine monitore , without a prompter , is without all colour of proof of prayers conceived : your Zephyrus blows with too soft a gale to shake the foundation of this argument ; and indeed is but a side-winde to my Heraldus , and the very same blast with your Rigaltius ; though you would seem to fetch them out of different corners ; If I give you your own asking , you have gained nothing : For what would you infer ? Christians prayed for the Emperors without a monitor , as the heathens did not ; therefore they had no formes of Christian prayers : He were liberall , that would grant you this consequent ; when rather the very place shews what the forme was , which the Christians then used ; We are praying still for all Emperors , that God would give them a long life , a secure raigne , a safe Court , valiant hoasts , faithfull Counsellors , good people , and a quiet world ; This was Tertullians Leiturgie , wherein the hearts of Christians joyned without a monitor ; It is small advantage that you will finde in my sense of Sine monitore ; ( not being urged by any superior injunction ) If no injunction , you say , how could it be a Leiturgie , a commanded , imposed forme ? You are unwilling to understand , that the injunction here meant is generall , a command to pray for the Emperour , not a particular charge of the forms injoyned in praying ; this was therefore the praise of their Christian loyaltie , that even unrequired , they poured out their supplications for Princes : Shortly then , after all these pretended senses , Tertullian will not upon any termes be drawne to your partie . Those other two places of Tertullian and Austine are meerely sleevelesse , and unproving ; not making any whit at all more for conceived prayers , then for prescribed ; Who ever made question , whether wee might build our prayers upon our Saviours form ? or whether we might vary our prayers with our occasions ? Those Fathers say no more , we no lesse ; Ye dare not say there were no publique Leiturgies in S. Austins time ; My Margin was conviction enough ; which ye touch as an Iron too hot , with an hand quickly snatcht away . Your denial should have drawn on further proofs . Iustin Martyr ( though fifty yeers before Tertullian ) follows him in your discourse ; How guiltily you both translate and cite him , an Author of no mean judgement hath shewed before me . I shall not therefore glean after his sickle ; But shortly thus , take your ( {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ) in your own best sense ( for quantum pro virile potest ) what will follow ? The President prayed , and gave thanks to the utmost of his power ; therfore the Church had then no Leiturgie . What proof call you this ? Look back , Brethren , to your own citation ; you shall finde Prayers more then once in their Lords-day meetings ; These latter were the Presidents , the former some other Ministers ; these in the usuall set forms , those out of present conception ; both stand well together , both agreeable to the practise , as of these , so of former ages . BUt whiles I affect over-full answers , I feel my self grow ( like you ) tedious , I must contract my self and them . Your assertion of the originall of set forms of Leiturgy , I justly say is more Magistrall , then true , and such as your own testimonies confute . That of the Councell of Laodicea is most pregnant for set formes , before Arrius or Pelagius lookt forth into the world ; wherein mention is expresly made of three formes of Prayer , one by and for the Catechumeni , the second for the Penitents , the third for the Faithfull . You cannot elude so cleare a proofe , by saying the Councell required prayers for all these , but did not binde to set formes in prayers ; for the same Councell stops your mouth whiles it tels you in plaine termes , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that the same form or Liturgy of Prayers was to be used morning and evening ; And Clemens ( though not the true , yet ancient ) tels us , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , &c. and in the eight Book of his Constitutions , recites large prayers which were publiquely used in the Church . Let the Reader now judge , where this shuffling lies : The Canon requires one of these prayers to be in silence ; what then ? So doth our Liturgy require in the Ordination of Ministers , that in one passage of this solemne act , our prayers should be secret and silent , yet the rest is no lesse in set formes . You might then bee ashamed to object want of fidelity to me in the citation of that testimony , which I but barely quoted in my margin . Neither can you avoid a self-confutation in your owne proofes ; There was no noise of the Arrian heresie till the Nicene Councell ; The Councell of Laodicea ( wherin set formes are notified ) was before the Nicene by your owne account : Yea , but , say you , the heresie of Arrius was not just borne at the period of the Nicene Councell ; True ; but was it borne so long before , as that any Councell tooke notice of it , before the Nicene ? This you dare not affirme : But ( for a second shift ) the heresie of Arrius troubled the Church sometime , before the name of Arrius was borrowed by it ; Grant we ( upon good authority of Fathers , and Councels ) that the ground of the cursed error of Arrius , concerning the Son of God , was laid before by others ; what is that to the question of set prayers ? What is , if this be not a plaine shuffle ? Neither is it any other then a meere slurre , wherewith you passe over the unanswerable pressure of the Laodicean Councell , before mentioned , by cavilling the difference betwixt prescribing , and composing ; the Councell is flat in both , and injoynes one and the same Liturgy of prayers : Certainly , brethren , you finde cold comfort at Laodicea ; Let us see how you mend your selves at Carthage . The Fathers there , injoyne that no man in his prayers should name the Father for the Son ; or the Son for the Father ; that in assisting at the Altar , their prayers should be directed to the Father ; that no man should make use of any other forme then is prescribed , unlesse he did first confer with his more learned brethren : Hence you gather , there was no set forme in use in the Church ; and no such circumscribing of liberty in prayer that a man should be tied to a set Liturgie . The charge was doubtlesse given upon a particular occasion , which is buried with time ; whether it were ignorance , or heedlesnesse in those African Priests , that they thus mistook in their Devotions , I cannot determine ; But , why might it not be then , as it is with too many now , that notwithstanding the Churches prescriptions , men will be praying as they list ; and let fall such expressions as may well deserve censure and restraint ? However , that they had set formes , seemes to bee sufficiently implyed in their own words ; Quicunque sibi preces aliunde describit ; for what can that aliunde relate unto but some former prescription ; which , that they had , even in these African Churches , we need no other testimony then of the Magdeburgenses , who cite Cyprian himselfe for this purpose in his Booke de Oratione Dominica ; where he tels us that the Priest began with , Sursum corda , Lift up your hearts ; and the Congregation answered , Wee lift them up unto the Lord : To which they adde , Formulas denique quasdam precationū sine dubio habuerunt ; They had then without doubt certaine set formes of prayers ; and to suppose , that they had prescribed formes for publique use , which no man should be required to use , it were a strange and uncouth fancy : Neither need wee any better contest for our defence then him , whom you cite in your margin , learned Cassander , in the just allegation both of this Councell , and the Milevitane , the Canon whereof runs thus ; It pleaseth the Fathers that those prayers , or orisons which are approved in the Synod , shall bee used by all men ; And no other shall bee said in the Church , but such as have beene made , by some prudent Authors , or allowed of the Synod ; lest perhaps something may bee composed by them through ignorance , or want of care , contrary to the faith . Say , Readers , is not this a likely testimony to bee produced against set formes of Prayer ? What is it then that you would hence inferre ? First , that this being ( Anno 416. ) is the first mention of prayers to be approved or ratified in a Synod , and the restrayning to the use of them : Grant that it were so , of prayers to bee ratified , or restrained , Is it so of prayers to be used ? Are you not sufficiently convinced herein , by the Synod of Laodicea ? It is the occasion that draws on the Law ; till now , this presumption of obtruding private mens prayers upon the publique use of the Church , was not heard of in those parts ; now only was it seasonable for correction . Secondly , you say the restriction was not such but that it admitted a toleration of prayers , framed by prudent Divines ; no lesse , then those which were approved by the Synod ; What gaine you by that ? when these prayers were said , and not conceived ; and so said , that they were put into formes , not left to arbitrary delivery . Secondly , the occasion of this restriction ( being the prevention of errours in praying ) is so universall both for time and place , that it may well argue this practise to be most ancient for the originall , and worthy to be perpetuall for the continuance . And now , that the Vindicators may see how small cause the Remonstrant hath to be convinced of the latenesse of set forms imposed , ( not till the Arrian and Pelagian Heresies invaded the Church ) let them be pleased to tell the Reader , what those {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , Prayers prescribed were , whereof Origen speaks in his 6. book against Cels . so frequently used ; and if that word may undergo another sense , what those {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} can be construed , wherefrom he quotes three or four passages of Scriptures , in the fourth book against Celsus ? Lastly , what the meaning and inference may be , of that which the Centuries alledge out of Origen in his 11. Homily upon Ieremy ; Vbi frequenter in oratione dicimus , Da omnipotens , da nobis partem cum Prophetis , da cum Apostolis Christi tui , tribue ut inveniamur ad vestigia unigeniti tui . If this be not part of a set form of prayer , and long before Arrius or Pelagius , I have lost both my aim , and the day ; if it be , repent of your confidence , and recant your errour : and grant at last , that out of most venerable Antiquity , the approvers of Liturgies have produced such evidences for their ancient use , as your insolent wisdome may jeer , but can never answer . HOw I admire your goodnesse ! Mercifull men , you pardon that fault , which in justice ye could not find , or cannot prove : my confident assertion of the prayers wherewith Peter and Iohn joyned , when they went up into the Temple at the ninth hour of prayer , that they were not of a sudden conception , but of a regular prescription , shall be made good with better authority , then your bold and braving deniall ; I say the prayers wherewith they joyned , not the prayers which they made ; the prayers which they made , were their own , ( which wipes away your stout instance , in the Pharisee and Publican ) but the prayers wherewith they joyned , were publike and regular . For in all their Sacrifices and Oblations , the Jews had their set Service of prayers , which gave life to those otherwise dead ( or , at least , dumb ) actions . The noble and learned Lord , Du-Plessis , the great glory of the Reformed Church of France , speaks home to this purpose ; so doth the renowmed P. Fagius the dead Martyr of our Cambridge , besides learned Cappellus , whom we cited in our late Defence . Confessio olim in sacrificio solennis ; ejus , praeterquam in lege vestigia , in prophetis formulam habemus : In ipsis Iudaeorum libris verba tanquam concepta extant , quae sacerdos pronunciare solitus , saith the said Mornay Du-Plessis . There was a solemn confession in their sacrifice of old ; whereof , besides that we have certain footsteps in the Law , we have the very form in the Prophets ; In the books of the Iews , the very expresse words are extant , which the Priest had wont to pronounce . Thus he . And Lyranus wel acquainted with the Iewish practises ( as being one of them himself ) tels us , that the Priest was used to confesse in generall , all the sins of the people , as ( saith he ) we are wont to do in the entrance of our Masse . But Ludovicus Cappellus , the French Oracle of Hebrew learning , hath those very words , whereat you jeer so oft , as falling from my pen : Ex quibus videre est , orationem cujus causa Petrus & Johannes petebant Templum , fuisse eam , quae à Iudaeis dicitur {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} quae respondet oblationi vespertinae lege praescriptae , quae fiebat , ut loquitur Scriptura , inter duas vesperas ; Thus he ; whom I beseech you Brethren , laugh at for company . Admire with me , Reader , the subtlety of this deep exception ; Our Saviour ( I say ) prescribed to his Disciples , besides the Rule , a direct form of prayer ; What say my great Challengers to this ? The Remonstrant will have an hard task ( say they ) to prove from Scripture , that either John or our Saviour gave to their Disciples publike Liturgies , or that the Disciples were tyed to the use of this form . Truly the task were as hard , as the very mention of it is absurd and unreasonable . For shame Brethren , leave this palpable shuffling ; the Remonstrant spake of a Prayer , ye ask for a Liturgie ; the Remonstrant speaks of prescribing , ye talk of tying ; which ( till your Reply ) came not so much as into question ; It must be a weak sight that cannot discern your grosse subterfuges . The use that our Saviour was pleased to make in his last Supper of the fashions and words which were usuall in the Jewish feasts , is plainly affirmed not by Cassander only , ( whose videtur you please to play upon ) but by Paulus Fagius at large , by Mornaeus , by Cappellus : And if these tooke it from Maimonides , who wrote not till a thousand yeares after Christ ; yet , from whom I beseech you had Maimonides this observation ? A man of yesterday may upon good grounds of authority tell a truth of a thousand yeares old . I let passe the meere non-sense wherewith you shut up this Paragraph , as more worthy of the Readers smile then my confutation ; who will easily assume by comparing the place , how little I meant to fetch a Liturgy from a feast ; or necessity out of an arbitrary act . TO prove that the Jews had a form of Liturgy even from Moses his time , I produced a monument above the reach of your either knowledge , or censure ; a Samaritan Chronicle , now in the hands of our most learned and famous Primate of Ireland ; written in Arabick , translated into that tongue , out of the Hebrew , as Ios : Scaliger ( whose it once was ) testifies ; fetching downe the story from Moses to Adrians time , and somewhat below it ; out of this so ancient Record , I cited the very words of the Author , which these men would faine mistake as my own ; wherein hee mentions a booke of the old Liturgy of the Jews , in which were contained those Songs and Prayers which were used before their sacrifices : Adding ; For before every of their severall sacrifices , they had their severall Songs still used in those times of peace ; all which , accurately written , were transmitted to the subsequent generations , from the time of the Legat ( Moses ) unto this day , by the ministery of the high Priest . Thus he . This is our evidence ; now let us see your shifts : First , you tel us , Those were onely Divine hymns , wherein there was alwayes something of Prayer . If but thus , wee have what wee would ; for what are prayses , but one kind of prayers ; And what can be more said for a set forme of hymns , then of petitions ? But , brethren , yee might have seene in the Authors owne words , ( which you are loath to see ) Songs and Prayers , which were ever used before their Sacrifices ; and were comprised in that ancient Service-book : See now Reader , whether there bee not something for set Prayers in the Authors own words , which these men would wittingly out-face , and not willingly see . The Testimony cannot be eluded , now it must be disparaged ; [ Ioseph Scaliger had certainly but two Samaritan Chronicles ] Who saies he had more ? I cited but one , what needed you ( but to shew the world you can tell something ) to talk of two ? What businesse have we with that shorter Chronicle , which you will needs draw into mention ? Let that bee as fond , as your exception is unseasonable ; What is that to us ? How else should wee have knowne , that you had taken notice of a Samaritane Pentateuch , and learned Mr. Sel. dens Marmora Arundeliana ? Away with this poore ostentation ; speake to the purpose ; What can you say against that large Samaritan Chronicle , which I produced , turned out of Hebrew into Arabick , written in a Samaritan Character , and now not a little esteemed by the great , and eminently judicious Primate , in whose Library it is ? Surely , as I have heard some bold pleaders ; when they have feared a strong testimony , pick quarrels at the face of the witnesse ; so doe you , brethren , in this case . Scaliger himselfe you say ( the former owner ) passes this censure upon it , that though it have many things worthy of knowledge , yet they are crusted over with Samaritan devices . Who can expect other but that a Samaritan should speak like himselfe , when it comes to a difference in Religion ? but this is no reason , why in matters accorded , there should bee any distrust : What a Bellarmine writes of the holy Trinity passeth for no lesse currant then the best of our owne ; If Ainsworth lived and died a Separatist , yet we dare beleeve him in his report of Jewish Antiquities , no lesse then Broughton , Weems , Drusius . So as this winde shakes not the authority of this relation . But , judge ( you say ) how much credit we are to give to this book for Antiquitie , as far as Moses , which makes no mention of their own originall , any other wayes , then , That they came out of Egypt by Moses ; A poor and groundlesse exception : for that which wee alledge this Author for , is onely the report of a booke containing the formes of prayers used by the Jewes since Moses ; and as for the mention of their owne Originall , it was their glory to fetch themselves from the first Jewish Patriarks , ( as the Samaritan Woman did at Jacobs Well ) neither would they challenge a lower rise ; no marvell therefore if they passed in silence the Historie of the defection of the ten Tribes ; as rather tending to their owne blemish ; especially considering , what Josephus reports of their fashion , That ever when the Jewes prospered , they claimed brotherhood of them ; when contrarily , they proclaimed hostility ; And what if this Author doth onely touch the names of Sampson , Samuel , David , what doth this detract from the credit and validity of his historie ? So as notwithstanding your frivolous cavils , we will take leave to make so much of our Samaritan Cronicle , as to avow it for a noble and ancient proofe of that my confident assertion of the use of Liturgies since Moses . YOur pretended proofe to the contrary , which you so gloriously bring out of your famous Rabbi Moses Maimonides in his Mishneh , will prove but a vain flourish ; & if it worke any thing , it will be for my advantage . For what is it that hee sayes ? It is ( saith hee ) an affirmative precept , that prayers should be made to God , every day , &c. Caeterùm neque numerus , &c. But neither the number of those prayers , nor the obligation to this , or that prayer , nor the certaine , and definite time of prayer , is injoyned in the Law : Thus he . Now , how doth that concerne us ? Who ever defended , that Moses in the Letter of the Law , had given order for either number , or time , or obligation of particular prayers of severall Israelites ? although , under your good favour , we know that even then there were solemne formes of words , to bee used in the remove and resting of the Arke ; and in the solemne benedictions of Israel , and in the trialls of Jelousie , prescribed by God himselfe to the Priests ; whereof what can yee make other , then a shorter kind of stinted Liturgie ? Length , or brevitie makes no variance . But what doth this imply other , then that there were of old , prescriptions both of number , and time , and formes , though not expressed in the Law ? particulars whereof we shall produce in the sequell ; such as were not onely for the helpe of the ignorant , but for the direction of the Priests themselves , and for the better devotion of the people . That Ezra therefore and the men of the great Synagogue , made use of those eighteene formes of prayers , or benedictions , prescribed by them so long agoe , it argues nothing , that the like formes were not in set practise before their times ; so as your Maimonides ( after all your proritation ) holds no other then faire termes with our Samaritan Chronicle . And would learned Capellus ( thinke you ) make himselfe so merrie at the view of this passage ? surely , brethren , it would be at your fond and ridiculous mis-prison , in playing not upon my words , but your owne idle fancy . I cited Capellus for the formes of prayer used at the Minchah , and other Sacrifices , which you cannot gain-say , but that I should inferre from him , that the Jewish Liturgies were as ancient as Moses ; it is your meere dreame , not my assertion : It would become you to make more conscience of your suggestions . As for the marginall note out of Buxtorfius , it is worthy of but a marginall touch ; What such abuse were it to say , that Maimonides tooke those thirteene Articles of his Creed , from the Jewes devotion ; when the same Author confesses they had a being before ; but were by Rabbi Moses Bar Maimon redacted into this Order , wherein they stand ? Surely , that ever since Ezra's time they had a known forme of prayer , is confessed clearely by the same Rabbin , in his Misnah , as we have formerly seene ; and , what place could bee more proper for the seat of a Creed ? But , to meet a little with your crowing insultation , in this passage of the age of the Jewish Liturgie , what say you to that expresse testimonie of Paulus Fagius , ( a man , one of the best acquainted with Hebrew learning , of all ours in his age ) who upon the Chaldee Paraphrase of Leviticus , Chap. 16. in the words [ Et confiteatur super eum ] hath thus , Forma confessionis quâ tum usus est summus Pontifex , secundum Hebraeorum relationem , haec fuit , &c. The forme of confession which the high Priest ( then , in the first times of the Law ) used , according to the relation of the Hebrewes , was thus , O Lord , thy people of the house of Israel have sinned , they have done wickedly , they have grievously transgressed before thee ; I beseech thee now , O Lord , forgive their sinnes , and iniquities , and transgressions , wherein thy people , the house of Israel , have sinned , and done wickedly , and transgressed before thee ? And when the said high-Priest offered a Bullock for a sin offering , then he said in this manner , O Lord , I have sinned , I have done wickedly , and have grievously transgressed ; I beseech thee now , O Lord , be mercifull to those sins , and iniquities , and grievous transgressions wherein I have sinned , done wickedly , and transgressed against thee . And when he should offer the other Bullock , he used much what the same forme , adding , I , and my house , and the Sonnes of Aaron , thy holy people , have sinned , &c. I beseech thee now , O Lord , pardon the sinnes , and iniquities , and transgressions , &c. This triple confession did the high-Priest solemnly use , in the feast of Expiation ; And what the forme of the high Priests prayer was when he appeared before the Lord , the said Fagius showes us out of the Thalmud . Besides this , there was a set forme ( and that somewhat large ) of prayer and benediction , which the Master of the Familie amongst the Jewes , was privately wont to use in his holy feasts ; which the same Author elsewhere in his Chaldee Paraphrase , upon Deut. 8. fully expresses ; adding withall , ( which you were pleased to make sport with , as mine ) Verisimile est Christum quibusdam quae in his precibus continentur , usum fuisse ; It is very likely , that our Saviour made use of some passages which are contained in these prayers : And Paulus Burgensis tells us , it was an old Tradition amongst the Jewes , that when they had eaten the Paschall Lambe , they sung the Psalmes , from Laudate pueri Dominum , to Beati immaculati , that is , from the 113th . to the 119th . adding , Verisimile hos à Domino decantatos : It is likely , that these were sung by our Saviour in his last Supper . By this time the Reader sees there is somewhat more ground for a set forme of prayer amongst the ancient Jewes , then your deepe Rabbinisme would condescend unto . I have dwelt somewhat longer in this point , because I see the chiefe pride of your Vindication lies in this passage of Jewish skill ; wherein I well see with whose heifer you have ploughed ; and what name you might adde ( if there were roome ) to your learned Acrosticks ; but when all is done , I am deceived , if you may not put your gaines in your eye . FOr Christian Liturgies , your like confidence challenges the Remonstrant , to produce any Liturgie that was the issue of the first three hundred yeares : I name those under the stile of James , Basil , Chrysostome ; as ancient , though spuriously interserted ; You tell me of those of Peter , Matthew , Marke , &c. ( though Peters was the same with Markes ) and cite learned Rivetus , who censures these as zizania ; the tares , which the enemie sow'd whiles the husbandman slept ; Quite beside the cushion : Those were such , as all wise Christians will confesse ( with St. Austin ) were , A sutoribus fabularum , sub Apostolorum nomine conscripti ; Broached by some cogging merchants , under the name of the Apostles : But these other were generally , both for matter and manner , holy ; though interspersed with some passages that might argue a later hand ; whiles others of them beare such age , as that they are cited by ancient Fathers , for authentick parts of the formerly received Liturgies : shortly then , to produce those intire Liturgies , which were in the first three hundred yeares , is as unreasonable to demand , as impossible to performe ; How many noble monuments , besides these , have perished , as swallowed up by the devouring jawes of time , which it were a vaine hope to revoke ? But that there were such Liturgies in use , with those Churches , within the time required , I doubt not to evince ; what else , I beseech you , was that Euchologium , which Origen ( before that time ) cites ? whence were those passages of interchanged devotion , which the Centuriators themselves instance in , from Cyprian , fore-alledged by mee ? I dare boldly say , yee cannot answer these demands , and not yeeld your cause : To which let mee adde in the next succeeding age , those {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , which Eusebius tells us , that Constantine made use of in his Court : Our learned Christophorson renders it thus ; Constitutas cum universo Ecclesiae coetu , preces reddebat ; so as ( notwithstanding your colourable proofe in your Defence , of the frame of a prayer injoyned to the souldiers by that good Emperour ) it is cleare enough that , in those times , there was a set forme of Liturgie , injoyned to the use of the Church . Learned Morney , an Author past exception , shall attest with mee ; who , in that elaborate , and accurate Treatise of the Masse and the parts thereof , dividing that divine Service , according to the distribution of the Laodicean Synod , ( which you would faine have eluded by a pretence of no prescription of formes ) into that of the Catechumeni , that of the Penitents , that of the Faithfull , hath thus ; Hic jam mille fidelium locus , cujus ab oratione generali exordium , &c. This then is the place of the service of the faithfull ; whose entrance was alwayes with a generall prayer , for all the world , for the state of the Church , for the necessities both publicke and private . The Grecians call this a Letanie , or supplication , &c. Quae autem orationis illius forma fuerit ab incunabulis Ecclesiae , ad hoc usque seculum custodita , ex coaevis authoribus perspicuum : What the forme of that prayer was , which hath beene kept , even from the cradle of the Church unto this very age , it is apparent out of the Authors that lived in those times . Thus that famous Lord , Du Plessis ; who seconds his owne judgement by pregnant authorities from Chrysostome , Ambrose , Augustine ; to which , out of the feare of tediousnesse , I remit my Reader . By all which it is ( I hope ) made evident enough , that , before ever Pelagius , or Arrius infected the world , prescribed formes of publick prayers were commonly used in the Christian Church . It is indeed more then an implication , which the Remonstrant drew from the Ancyran Synod , The Presbyter that had once sacrificed , was forbidden , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , to offer , to preach , to officiate in priestly administrations : What is the Ministers imployment but the Word , Sacraments , and Prayers ; all three here inhibited , and these last , under the name of Liturgies ? And that these Anti-remonstrants may not delude the Reader with an opinion , that any either mistake , or fraud will follow upon the ambiguitie of the word ; it may please the Reader , to take notice of what these carpers will not see ; a plaine expression in my translated words , of Liturgies , or Ministrations . It is great pitie that the Remonstrant did not know so well as these deepe heads , that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is a word of both various , and generall use : They needed not to send him to Zonaras , or Balsamon , for this parcell of Phylologie , which he could have taught them nearer home , out of Saint Paul himselfe , and Saint Luke ; in whom they shall finde [ {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ] applyed to Zacharias his sacrificing ; and {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , which our last translation turnes Vessels of the ministerie : yea , the very collection of Almes is Saint Pauls {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and Epaphroditus is his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} What use then was there of this wast piece of Grammar-learning , when the Remonstrant himselfe interpreted Liturgies by Ministrations ? I Extolled the due use of conceived prayer ; even this doth not please , but invites suspicion rather ; well might I complaine of this sullennesse and morositie . If the quarrels that you pickt with the both Originall and Confirmation of our Liturgie prove unjust , you may well allow me to call your arguing about it , no other then wrangling . For the Originall , I deduced it from ancient models , not Roman , but Christian ; you except at the termes of pretended opposition , and still could fetch sparkes to fling in the face of him , who by the suffrages of unquestionable Divines hath shewed the just sense of the true visibilitie of the Roman Church . Truly , brethren , this is meerely to bark where you have no power at all to bite . What faculty you have in flinging sparkes I know not , but I am sure , if you blow this coale hard , the sparkes will flie in your eyes . The question is so throughly setled by those ( which you spitefully call begged ) suffrages , that no wit of man can finde but a probable colour to revive it . Faine would you have something to say to Doctor Hall , if ye knew what it were ; In his book of the old Religion , he cites a speech of Luthers ; that this good friend of Rome saies , Under the Papacie is true Christianitie , yea the very kernell of Christianitie : What of this ? Did Doctor Hall faine that Luther said so ? Or doe these men feare that Luther is turn'd Papist ? Compare this ( you say ) with that the Bishop of Salisburie saith , in his begged suffrage , who thus , speakes ; That the Church of Rome is no more a true Church , then an arrant whore is a true wife to her husband . Well : Compare Luther with the Bishop of Salisburie ; two worthy Divines , what then ? They will , I hope , prove good friends , and Doctor Hall with them both ; whose owne suffrage hath bin , and is no lesse peremptorie against Rome , then this which he begged ; A married woman , though she be a close harlot , is yet a wife ; and though she be not true to her husbands bed , yet she is truely his wife , till shee belegally divorced : Such is the state of the Roman Church , to Doctor Davenant , and Doctor Hall , and all other Orthodox Divines . Where now is your charitie in raising such groundlesse intimations against your innocent brethren ? Tell the Reader , I beseech you , where that scorne lies , which you say is cast upon you in this passage of my Defence . I justly boast of those our Martyrs and Confessors , which were the composers of our Liturgie ; You would faine counterpoize them with some holy Martyrs and Confessors of the same reformed Religion , that opposed it , even to persecution ; and tell us of the troubles of Frankford . Pardon me , brethren ; some Confessors you may talke of , but Martyrs yee can name none : One , who was the most vehement of all those opposers , I knew to live and dye in a quiet submission to the Liturgie established ; none of them suffered death for Religion : they might bee holy men , and yet might square in their opinions ; even betwixt Paul and Barnabas there was a {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . My praise of our Martyrs tended not to the disparagement of any other . AS for that slurre which your answer seemed to cast upon the Edict of King James , and our Parliamentary Acts , that they are not unalterable , as the Lawes of the Medes and Persians ; your so deep protestation clears you in our thoughts ; I have charitie enough to beleeve you ; but I must tell you , that speech might have a good heart , but it hath an ill face ; let it passe with favour : and as for those cheerefull expressions which you confesse you have taken liberty to make use of , in the passages of your booke , you will pardon me , if they bee intertained with as cheerefull answers : Tertullian , shal be seconded by Horace , Ridentem dicere verum , Quis vetat ? Let those laugh that win . For your Quaeres ; It seemes you thinke I am merrie too soone , in receiving them with so sarcasticall a Declamation : Your project is of the altering of our Liturgie ; I tell you seriously , if you drive at a totall alteration ( as your words seeme to import ) your quaere is worthy of no better reception then scorne : For , that any private person should ( as of his owne head ) move for the entire change of a thing , established by so sacred authoritie , and such firme and full Lawes , can be no better then a bold and ridiculous insolence . It was truly told you , that if you intended onely a correction of some inconvenient expressions , no doubt it would bee considered of , by wiser heads then your owne ; whereby I meant , that honourable and reverend Committee , to which this great care was , by publick assent , referred ; you straight suspect a designe to gaine upon the Parliament ; and , by a pretended shadow of alteration , to prevent a reall and totall reformation . Take heede , brethren ; lest you heedlesly wrong them whom you professe to honour , and we with you : Is the Parliament ( thinke you ) so easie to be gained upon by pretended shadowes ? Will those solid judgements bee likely to be swayed by colours ? Why do you cast that aspersion upon them , to whom yee say you have presented these considerations ; and to whose grave wisdoms we do no lesse humbly submit ? That God , who sits in the assemblie of the Judges of the earth , will , we hope , so guide the hearts of those great , and prudent Peeres and Commons , that they shall determine what may conduce most to peace , and godly uniformitie . But sure , brethren , you could not imagine , that by those wiser heads , wee should meane our owne ; when you compare your owne designes and successe , with our plaine credulitie , and late un-thriving proceedings . Injoy your winnings without our envie , not without our pitie of the poore Church of England , which will , I feare , too late rue your prevalence . THe alteration of the Liturgie sent into Scotland is a businesse utterly unconcerning us : whatever unhappy hands were in it , would God they had beene prevented by some seasonable Gout , or Palsie ; in the report of the alteration made of the Liturgie in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths time , I feare , you doe not well agree either with truth or with your selves , if we compare this passage with your first entry into this large Section ; let the scanning of it be left to the Readers better leisure : as not worthy to retard our way . Doctor Taylor ( whom you are pleased seriously to honour with the titles of my Ironie ) hath made good amends , belike , for the praise he gave to our Liturgie which he helped to compose , in his censure of a Bishops Licence , and the Priestly robes ; the one whereof ( you say ) hee called the marke of the Beast , the other a Fooles coat : But , what if the strange variety of Popish vestments , seemed to that holy Martyr , ridiculous ? What if to take a licence to preach from the hands of a Popish Bishop , seemed to him no better then to receive the marke of a Beast ? what is that to us ? what to the cause ? Were these tenets erroneous , is this sufficient to enervate his testimonie , for the allowance of that Letanie , which he made his last prayer at his parting with his deare consort ? And for the free use whereof he blessed that God to whom hee was sending up his soule ? Were it a good ground of judgement , that he , who once erres , can never say true ? But , for this censure of the good Martyr , let those that feele the smart of it complaine . Let us descend ( since you will have it so ) to the re-examination of those your reasons , which enforce your desired alteration : First , it symbolizeth with the Popish Masse : I say , neither as Masse , nor as Popish : you disprove me in neither , neither indeed can doe . Could you instance , This prayer is Superstitious , that Idolatrous , this Hereticall , that Erroneous , you might have just reason to except at any touch of our symbolizing with them ; But , if the prayer be good , and holy , why should I more refuse it , as comming from a Papists mouth , then I would make use of a vicious prayer comming from the best Protestant ? Where I said , If the Divell confesse Christ to be the Sonne of God , shall I disclaime the truth , because it passed through a damned mouth ? You answer , But you know Sir , that Christ would not receive such a confession from the Divels mouth , nor Paul neither , Act. 16. True , in respect of the person confessing , not of the truth confessed : As it came from an evill spirit , our Saviour , and St. Paul had reason to refuse it ; but neither of them would disclaime the matter of that truth , which was so averred . There is great difference betwixt the words of a foule spirit , and a faulty man ; but if you will needs make a parallel , it must be personall : Christ would not allow a Divell to confesse him ; we will not allow a Popish sacrificer to usurpe our good prayers ; but if my Saviour would not dis-allow that I should make use of the good Confession of an evill spirit , much lesse would hee dislike that I should make use of that good prayer , which was once the expression of an evill man : And yet these were not such , being taken from the composures of holy men , and ill places ; so as this is no other , then to take up gold mis-laid in a channell , which could not impure it : you may well aske why it was laid there ; you have no reason to aske why a wise man should take it up : Your question therefore ; What need wee go to the Roman Portuise for a prayer , when wee can have one more free from jealousies in another place ; might have been moved to those Worthies , which gathered this pile of devotion , who would easily have answered you , that your jealousie is causelesse , whiles the prayers themselves are past exception ; but can with no colour of reason bee charged upon us , who take holy prayers from good hands , not needing to enquire whence they had them . YOur second reason is as forcelesse , as your first . Our Liturgie was composed ( you say ) into this forme on purpose to bring the Papist to our Churches ; that failing , there is no reason to retaine it . The argument failes in every part : First , our Liturgie was thus composed on purpose , that all Christians might have a form of holy devotion , wherein they might safely , and comfortably joyne together , both publickly and privately , in an acceptable service to their God ; and this end , I am sure , failes not in respect of the intention of the composers , however it speed in the practise of the users of it . Secondly , there is no reason that where the issue of things faileth , the good intention of the agent should bee held frustrate , or his act void : Our end in preaching the Gospel , is , to win soules to God ; if we prevaile not , shall we surcease , and condemne our errand as vaine ? But here , I say , the project sped ; for till the eleventh yeare of Queene Elizabeth , there was no Recusant . You tell me , It was not the converting power of the Liturgie , but the constraining power of the Law , that effected this : But , brethren , what constraining power was of any use , where there was no Recusant ? Every constraint implies a reluctation , here was none : If then our Liturgie had no power of converting to our Churches , yet it had no operation of averting from them . What the Popes negotiations were with Queen Elizabeth , at this time , imports nothing ; I am sure I have those Manuscript Decisions of the Jesuitish Casuists , which first determined it unlawfull to joyne with our assemblies ; till which our Liturgie had so good effect , that those , who differed from us in opinion , were not separated in our devotion . But how am I mistaken ? That which I boasted of , as the praise , is objected to mee as the reproach of our divine service . What credit is this to our Church ( you say ) to have such a forme of publicke worship , as Papists may , without offence , joyne with us in , &c. Or , How shall that reclaime an erring soule that brings their bodies to Church , and leaves their hearts still in errour ? I beseech you , brethren , what thinke you of the Lords Prayer ? Is that a perfect platforme of our devotion , or is it not ? Tell me then , what Christian is there in the world , of what nation , language , sect soever , ( except the Separatist onely ) will refuse to joyne with their fellow Christians in that forme of prayer ? And , What credit is it to our Christian profession to have such a forme of publicke prayer , as Papists , Grecians , Moscovites , Armenians , Jacobites , Abassines , may , without offence , joyne with us in ? I had thought you would have looked for the reclamation of erring soules by the power of preaching ? Here is no unteaching or confutation of errors , no confirmations of either Doctrines , or Uses in the formes of our prayers : And if I should aske you how many you have reclaimed by your conceived prayers , you would not , I feare , need to spend too much breath in the answer . When I therefore impute the rare gaine of soules to the want or weaknesse in preaching , you think to choak me by an exprobration of the fault of your Governors : Let the Bishops see how they will cleare their soules of this sinne , who , having the sole power of admitting Ministers into the Church , have admitted so many weake ones , and have rejected so many faithfull , able Preachers , for not conforming to their beggerly rudiments : Let those whose guiltinesse findes themselves galled with this crimination , flie out in an angry answer ; but if there be those , who have beene conscionably carefull not to admit them that are not competently {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} not to eject any peaceable , and conscionable Divine , for meere matter of ceremonie , how injuriously have you fastened upon them other mens delinquences ? although it is not unpossible , that men may be able Preachers , and yet turbulent ; and there may bee ceremoniall rites , neither theirs , nor beggerly . You are deceived , brethren , it is not our Liturgie that hath lost any ; too many have lost themselves by a mis-taught prejudice against our Liturgie : as for the mis-catholick part , tell me , I pray you , whether is it more likely that a staggering Papist will rather joyne with a Church that useth a Liturgie , or one that hath none ? With a Church that allowes some of their wholesome prayers , or that which rejects and defies all , though never so holy , because theirs ? And for our own , surely , if our acute Jesuits had no keener arguments , then this you bring , we should be in small feare to lose Proselytes ; For what weake Protestant could not easily replie , The Church of Rome was ancient , but yours is new ; that was orthodox , this false : The service was not yours , but borrowed and usurped from better hands ; we make use of it ( as wee may ) in the right of Christianitie , not in any relation to you , and your errours ? So much for you and your Jesuit in the second reason . YOur third Reason is grounded upon stumbling blocks , it is no marvell if it fall : Those , you say , are laid by the Liturgie ; and I say , removed by many : So yee know they are by Hooker , Abbot , Hutton , Morton , Burges , Covell , and I know not how many others ; amongst the rest I stumbled upon a blinde man , whose inward sight abundantly supplyed the want of his bodily eyes ; who hath in many of those points given , in my opinion , very cleare satisfaction ; but sure you could not suppose me so weak , as to imagine that his lack of eyes could exempt him from errour ; although divers of your exceptions are ( if they were worth our insisting upon ) more groundlesse then his tenets ; But whiles I allowed many of his passages , I never meant to justifie all : It is far from mee to excuse , or patronize other mens Paradoxes . We know the old distinction of Scandals , taken , and given ; if there be any danger of the latter , it is ( I say ) under carefull hands to remove it ; and , however it pleases you to fall into cholerick comparisons , perhaps those hands which you sleight , may not bee the least active . To the fourth , which is the Idolizing of the Liturgie , I say truly , Separatists abhorre it for such ; never true Protestant adored it for such . Show us the man that ever worshipt the Service-booke , that wee may wonder at that uncouth Idolatrie : Show us the man that holds it the onely worship of God in England , as you unjustly pretend . I tell you of some others that stick not to say , Too many doe injuriously make an Idol of preaching : ( Why should you hope I am not serious in affirming so undoubted a truth ? ) yet we may not thinke of abandoning it : Even , in coole bloud the argument holds firme , without equalizing one with the other . Some have made an Idol of their silver and gold , must I therefore cast away this metall ? You needed not feare that I would speake ought to the derogation from my owne profession ; But if I compare Gods ordinance of prayer , with his ordinance of preaching , and this individuall Liturgie , with that individuall Sermon , I hope there is no danger in that collation . TO the fifth , The great distaste which these publick prayers meet withall , is truly lamentable , and the effect of that distaste , separation : yet more ? Let those mis-zealous men who have infused these thoughts into well-meaning soules see how they will answer it in that great day , to the Judge of the quick and dead ; surely , if the case were mine , I should feare it would fall heavie upon my soule ; for , if it be granted , that there are divers passages in our Liturgie faulty , and worthy of correction , yet no wise enemie can say , they are so hainous , that they barre all Communion : Did they containe heresie , or blasphemie , wee could but separate from their use ; now , their separation can no more be without our pitie , then without their owne sinne : Your argument hence inferred , that the partition wall of our offensive Liturgie should bee removed , because some brain-sick men ( for that title is here merely your owne , not mine ) are scandalized thereby , will no lesse hold , if this our Liturgie were either altered , or abolished : for , are there not thousands that professe to bee no lesse scandalized with any set formes whatsoever ? So then , if wee have any prescribed , or stinted devotions at all , the partition wall stands still ; and if that should be demolished , how many more , and more considerable thousands doe ye thinke , would be scandalized with the want of those holy formes , whereto they have beene so long , and so beneficially inured ? Here is therefore a scandall on both parts , vnavoidable ; and it will bee our wisedome and pietie , to fall upon the least . You say , ye thinke , nay , you know that some few Prelates , by their over-rigorous pressing of the Service-booke , and Ceremonies , have made more Separatists , then all the Preachers dis-affected to the Ceremonies in England : I examine not the truth of your confident assertion ; but will you to distinguish betwixt causes and occasions : The rigour of those few Prelates might be the occasion ; but the mis-perswasions of those dis-affected Preachers were the causes of this wofull separation : Both might unhappily concurre to this mischiefe ; but those more , who are the direct and immediate agents in so bad a service . YOur last Reason is so sleightly enforced , that it merits rather pitie then refutation ; I doe justly averre that , There is no reason why difference in Liturgies should breed dis-union betweene Churches ; or why union in religion should binde us to the same Liturgies ; distinguishing ( as I ought ) betwixt Essentiall points , and mere outward Formalities . How faintly you reply , that , [ It is true , every difference in Liturgies doth not necessitate a dis-union of Churches : But here the difference is too large to be covered with a few fig-leaves ! ] Grant it to be larger then it is ; is it yet Essentiall ? The question is not , what may cover our differences , but what may disunite our Churches ? It is not formes of Liturgies , but matter of obstinate and fundamentall error , that can draw on such an effect : Tell not me therfore , or your Reader , of some Ceremonies of ours , that will not downe with other reformed Churches ; when yee may , as good cheape , heare of some fashions of theirs , which will not downe with us : It is good reason , that as we give , so we should take liberty in things indifferent ; without any reciprocall dislike . As for precedency of time in our Liturgie , and of dignity in our Church , they may well have this operation with us , that our Liturgie could not conform to that which had no being ; and that other Churches should rather conforme to ours , which was ever noted for more noble , and eminent . You desire not to eclipse the glory of this Church , as you professe ; yet you are willing to over-shadow it somewhat darkely ; whiles you can say , Our first reformation was onely in Doctrine , theirs in Doctrine and Discipline too : wherein you are double-faultie ; first , in imputing a defect to our Church , most unjustly , in the extent of our Reformation . What ? Was there no Reformation but in matter of Doctrine ? None in matter of Practise ? None in Idolatrous or Superstitious rites ? None in offensive Customes ? None in corruption of Government ? None in lawes Ecclesiasticall ? What call you eclipsing , if this be none ? Secondly , in imputing that to the reformed Churches as their perfection , which is , indeed , their unwilling , and forced defect : Reformation implies the renuing of a forme that once was ; now , show us , if you can , where ever in the world , that form of Discipline ( whose erection you applaud to some neighbour Churches ) found place , before it was in this last age provisionally taken up , by those , who could not bee allowed , with the libertie of true religion , to injoy their former government ? As for the comparison you are pleased to mention , betwixt the Liturgies of the reformed Churches , and those of other Christians , Grecians , Armenians , &c. wherein you say , If you should set downe what you have read in the Liturgies of those Churches , you beleeve the Remonstrant would blush for intimating , there is as much reason to conforme to their Liturgies , as those of the reformed Churches : I must tell you , it is of your owne making , neither did ever fall from my pen ; I doe blush indeed , but it is to see your bold mis-takings , and confident obtrusions of things never spoken , never meant : I doe not mention a conformitie to their Liturgies , as equally good ; but onely aske , Why wee should be tied to the formes of one Church , more then another , as those who are intire within our selves , and equally free from obligations to any ; so as you shut up your first quaere with a mere cavill , and the Reasons whereby you indevoured to back it , are utterly reasonlesse . YOur second quaere is to seek of so much as any good pretence of reason , yea of sound authoritie ; Whether the first reformers of Religion did ever intend the use of a Liturgie further then to be an help in the want , and to the weakenesse of the Ministers ? For first , have they ever professed their whole and sole intentions , or have they not ? If not , how come you to know what they never expressed ? If they have , why have you suppressed it ? Secondly , it is obvious to every common understanding , that there were other reasons besides this , of framing set formes of publick Liturgies ; as , The uniformitie of Divine services in every nationall Church , the opportunitie of the better joyning together of all hearts in common devotions , the better convenience of fixing the thoughts upon the matter of a fore-knowne expression : So as this , which you have so groundlesly intimated , cannot be imagined to be the onely reason of prescribed Liturgies . Tell me , I beseech you , what thinke you of our Saviours Epitome of a Liturgie , the Lords Prayer ? for certainly it was no other ; a forme of prayer injoyned by divine authoritie : Was that onely intended to be an helpe in the want , and to the weakenesse of the Ministers ? Was it not prescribed for the help of the devotion of all disciples ? Your instances are ( if it might be ) poorer then your assertion . The 23. Canon of the 4th . Councell of Carthage ordaines , Ut nemo Patrem nominet pro Filio , &c. In a care to prevent the dangerous mis-prisons of some ignorant Priests in Africk , in mis-naming the sacred persons in the Trinitie , it charged them not to mis-apply the termes ; Therefore all prescribed formes of prayer are onely intended to supply wants , or weaknesses , of Ministers : A stout inference , and irresistible . The composers of the Liturgie for the French Church at Frankford tell us , Hae formulae inserviunt tantùm rudioribus ; nullius libertati praescribitur : These formes serve onely for the ignorant sort ; not prescribing to any mans libertie . What meane you , brethren , to urge so improbable a proof ? First this was but a particular congregation , and therefore of no use or validity for the practise of the whole Church : Secondly , these prayers , which they set forth , were onely for the private use of Christians ; for I hope you will not imagine , that when they say [ rudioribus tantum inserviunt , they serve onely for the more rude and ignorant sort of people , ] that they herein meant to point out the Ministers ; so as your very allegation confutes your selves , and seconds me . Your following inforcement in this Paragraph failes of sense , much more of reason ; and doth but begge what it cannot evince . You tell mee of thousands , who desire to worship God with devout hearts , that cannot bee easily perswaded that these set formes , ( though never so free from just exception ) will prove so great an helpe to their devotion ; I tell you of many more thousands then they , and no lesse devoutly affected , that blesse God to have found this happy , and comfortable effect , in the fore-set prayers of the Church . Neither doth this plead at all against the use of present conception , whether in praying , or preaching ; or derogate any thing from that reverent and pious esteeme of conceived prayer , which I have formerly professed : Surely , I doe from my sould honour both ; I gladly make use of both , and praise God for them as the gracious exercises of Christian pietie , and the effectuall furtherances of salvation : there is place enough for them both ; they neede not justle each other : And , if experience had not made good this truth of mine to many , the most eminent Divines of these later times ( eminent , I meane , not more for learning , then strict pietie ) why would they in their prayers , both after , and especially before their Sermons , have confined themselves to a set forme of their own making , without the variation of any one clause , as I can abundantly instance ? Certainly , they wanted not that freedome of either spirit , or tongue which is challenged by meaner persons , but did purposely hold themselves to the usuall conceptions , wherewith their thoughts , and the peoples eares were best acquainted . As for the difference which is pretended in the use of Liturgies in other reformed Churches , which you say doe use Liturgies , but doe not binde their Ministers to the use of them , it will prove no better then a mere Logomachie . In this point , if wee bee understood , wee shall not differ : If , as you explicate your selves in the sequele , out of the Canons and Rubrick both of the Dutch , and Genevian Churches , you meane onely , that the Ministers were not so tyed up to those prescribed formes , that they might not at some times , and upon some occasions , make use of their owne conceptions , you have herein no adversary : Doubtlesse , all Christian Divines have ever had that liberty in all the Churches that have professed the name of Christ ; neither ought it , neither can it bee denyed to any , either of theirs , or ours : All allegations to this sense , might well have beene spared ; wee shall willingly concurre with you , both in opinion , and practise : But , if by this [ not binding to the use of a Liturgie ] you understand either an arbitrary power not in use in any Liturgie at all , or an absolute release from any whatsoever usage of their publickly-prescribed formes , and a wilfull rejection of them , as either unfit or unlawfull , because set and stinted ; none of your cited Authorities , no practise of any well governed Church will countenance so strange a Paradoxe : In this Calvin fights directly against you , whiles hee orders , Ut certa illa extet , à quâ pastoribus discedere non liceat : That there should bee a certaine forme , from which it may not bee lawfull for Ministers to depart : The contradiction whereunto , alledged out of your namelesse Liturgie , of Formulae pro arbitrio , I leave to your owne reconciling . As for the Lutheran Churches , though they have more superfluitie then want , yet why they should bee excluded out of the List of the Reformed , I know no reason ; since , if all Protestant Churches ( which is the usuall contradistinction from Popish ) come under that stile , these are wont to challenge the deepest share in that denomination : Neither is it out of any disrespect to the Churches reformed ( as your charity would faine suggest ) that I say , they are but a poore handfull in comparison of the world of Christians abroad ; ( I have ever honoured them , no lesse then your selves ) but in regard of the paucitie of their Professours ; Their value is no whit the lesse , because their number is so . One sparke of a Diamond may bee worth large piles of Marble : But I might well argue , that in a point ; wherein no judicious man can place an errour , there can bee no just reason that wee should abandon the received practise of all the Christian Churches upon earth , for the late institution of a few : If herein I mis-judge , I am willing to bee convinced . THe Rubrick of King Edward the sixth , agreeing with the liberty given by divers Ordinances , at this day , of omitting ( upon some great occasions ) part of the Liturgie injoyned , makes nothing for the proofe of the proposition , supposed in your Quaere , [ That the Reformers of Religion did never intend the use of a Liturgie , further , then to bee an helpe in the want , or to the weakenesse of a Minister : ] It will be an hard taske to make these two other then inconsequent : You tell mee of the practise of some stiffe Ordinaries , that have denyed this liberty ; and plead , that what some Ordinaries have voluntarily yeelded , you cannot be blamed to desire , as a favour from the high Court of Parliament : It is not for mee to returne the answer of my Superiours ; but I cannot but put you in minde , that there is a vast difference betwixt an act of occasionall indulgence , and a constant claime ; betwixt a particular dispensation , and an universall rule : Further then this , I prescribe not , but obey . However the state of Homilies and Liturgies bee much different , these latter having been , even from the Primitive times , prescribed to the common usage of the Church , which the former offers not to challenge ; yet I granted , that , If wee did utterly abridge all Ministers of the publicke use of any conceived prayer , on what occasion soever , the argument might hold force against us . You tell mee of some men that have sacrilegiously done so : I send you to those some men for your answer : The commands and practises of the Church of England are within the taske of my Defence : Let private men speake for themselves . From the Deske you leape into the Pulpit , and tell us , that your argument is as strong against limiting in Prayer , as limiting in Preaching ; wherein you are unwilling to know , that our Church allowes equall freedome in both ; Who that hath sate within the report of our Pulpits , can but say , that our Ministers doe there ordinarily pray , as freely as they preach ? I pray God they may doe it holily and discreetly in both : Whiles they are allowed this freedome in their Pulpits , what inconvenience can it be to be limited to solemne , publick ( but sacred ) formes in their Deske ? We allow both , you would rob us of one , where is the sacriledge ? So then , in all this eager passage , your Reader sees what fearefull venies you give to your owne shadow ; for certainly , you have here no visibly reall adversary : if by a set Liturgie wee went about to infringe all liberty of conceived prayer , you might pretend some ground of a quarrell ; but when wee allow , and commend , and practise both , in their due places , where can you fasten ? THe reason is lamentable which you urge in the fifth place , that many denie their presence at our Church-meeting , in regard of those imposed prayers ; Our eyes can witnesse ( not without teares ) the too much truth of this sad assertion ; wee have seene , and pitied to see many poore mis-guided Mechanicks , waiting abroad in the Church-yards , for the good houre ; who , so soone as ever the long expected Psalme calls in to the ensuing Sermon , have throng'd into the Congregation , as now onely worthy of their presence ; Alas poore soules , were their knowledge ( which they over-weene ) but equall to their zeale , they would see , and hate their own mis-judgement : In the meane time ( shift it how you please ) woe , woe be to those teachers that have mis-led well-meaning people , to this dangerous , and ungodly prejudice : It had beene better for them never to have beene borne , then to have lived to be authors of so pernicious a Schisme in the Church of God . I have no reason to accuse you , whom I know not ; although I must tell you , your cold put-off doth little lesse then accuse your selves : For your parts , you say , you professe that you are not against a free use of a Liturgie ; Wee thanke you for this favour ; what is this but to say , If a Liturgie be not left free , wee professe our selves to bee against it , wee animate all others in that profession ? You are yet more courteous , and tell us , Yee doe not count a Liturgie a sufficient ground of separation from the Church : Marke , Reader , there is fraud in the words ; they say , they doe not count a Liturgie a sufficient ground of separation ; they doe not say , this Liturgie : such a Liturgie as they could devise , and upon such termes , might perhaps bee no sufficient ground of a separation ; but this Liturgie of our Church , as it now stands , they doe not undertake for . Speake out , brethren , and doe not smother your thoughts ; declare freely to your Auditors , whether the Liturgie established in this Church , be such , as wherewith they ought to joyne ; and whether that come within Saint Augustines rule of non-scindendas Ecclesias : were you lesse reserved , the Church would perhaps be more happy . The Remonstrants Dilemma may peradventure come too late , when you have forestalled the minds of ignorant men with strong resolutions against all imposed Liturgies , but especially our owne : Now , you can confidently say , [ The persons concerned will denie , that either the Liturgie is good ; or lawfully imposed , if it were good ; ] and here ( for ought I see ) they and you are resolved to rest : in vaine shall we go about to make good the Premisses , whiles you have taught them to hold fast the Conclusion : Disputes will not do it ; you have found a way that will worke the feate : By loosing the bond of imposition , and taking away the cause of disputes , and troubles of many thousand consciences . Why now , Brethren , I like you well ; plaine-dealing is a jewell : The way not to be troubled with Liturgies , is to have no Liturgies at all ; and the way to have no use of Liturgies at all , is not to injoyne them : as if you said , The way to loose the Gordian knot , is to cut it in pieces ; the way to prevent the danger of violating Lawes , is to let them loose , or make them arbitrary ; the way to remedie the discontent of Popish Recusants , is to retract the Oath ; the way not to be barred by the gate , is to throw open the hedge : Truely , brethren , if this bee the onely meanes of redresse , you have reduced us unto a good condition ; it is the established , and ( as hath hitherto beene thought ) the wholesome Law of this Kingdome , that this ( and this onely ) Liturgie should be used , and frequented by Ministers , and people ; and this hath hitherto been obediently , and peaceably observed : now , upon some new exotick scruples , good people are taught to place pietie in the disobedience of those acknowledged Lawes , and nothing will quiet their many thousand consciences , but an abrogation of the good Lawes they were wont to live under . What must the indifferent Reader needs think of this ? The Law is the same it was , under which our religious fore-fathers went happily to heaven ; the change is in us . Oh miserable men , whom some few tempestuous blasts from New-England , and Amsterdam have thus turned about , and made insensible of our former blessings ! Meane while , that which pincheth you in my Reply , you are willing to passe over in silence . Were the imposition amisse , what were this to the people ? The imposition ( if faulty ) is upon the Minister ; how can that more concerne the people , then their joyning with him in an usuall prayer , ( whereto hee ties himselfe ) of his owne making ? If the case bee equall , why doe you not labour to convince your people of so unjust a partialitie ; and to reclaime them from so palpable an errour ? the end whereof ( without a speedy remedy ) can bee no other then that I have most unwillingly fore-spoken , perfect difformity and confusion . I May not omit to proclaime to the Reader your eminent charity to me , of whom you say , Yea , so resolute he is not to yeeld to a libertie , in what is established , &c. that wee evidently see by his answer , that had the reading of Homilies beene as strictly enjoyned as the Booke of Common Prayer , the ablest Minister in England , ( were the Law in the Remonstrants hands , ) must be held as strictly to them , as to this . How now , Brethren ? What , in so angry a confidence ? On what ground , I beseech you ? The Remonstrant is well knowne to have beene as diligent a Preacher as any in your Alphabet ; and to bee still ( as not yet defective in that dutie , so ) as great an incourager of Preaching as the best of your Patrons ; why will yee thus unjustly raise so envious a suggestion against him ? [ Hee is soresolute not to yeeld a liberty ; ] Alas , what power hath hee , to either yeeld , or denie a libertie , who professeth ( as hee ought ) nothing but humble obedience ? But when a question is stated concerning the injunction , or freedome of a Liturgie , you may be pleased to give mee leave to defend that part which my conscience ( and I thinke upon sure grounds ) dictates to me for a certaine truth : Non eadem sentire bonis , &c. had wont to bee a received rule ; but , as to this challenge it selfe , might the Readers leisure serve him to cast back his eye upon this passage of my Defence , he shall no lesse marvell at the injustice , then the uncharitablenesse of it : Hee shall there see with what inoffensive caution I marshall Homilies , and Liturgie in the same ranke ; so making our obedience the rule of the use of both , as that I professe a just liberty yeelded in both ; showing , that if Homilies were injoyned to be read , and yet a free use of Preaching allowed , there were no more cause to refuse them , then we have now to refuse the Liturgie , having withall a freedome to our conceived Prayers : In which position I would faine see what malice it selfe can finde to carpe at . AS for that strange project of yours , of imposing the use of set formes as a punishment to un-sufficient Ministers , yee might well give mee leave to smile a little at so uncouth a penance , and so unheard-of a mulct ; whereat , others , perhaps , will laugh out . You answer mee with a retortion of my owne words , and seeme to please your selves much in the conceit , calling the ingenious Reader to record of your owne grosse mistaking : Be this once pleased , Readers , since you are call'd up , to examine these mens confident fidelitie ; I had ( as I well might ) taxed this rare project of theirs ; Yet himselfe ( say they ) comes out with a project about Preaching , never a whit better , and doth as good as confirme our saying , in the latter end : View the place , I beseech you ; see if you can finde any the least intimation of either preaching , or project ; All that passage is onely concerning prayer , the gift whereof , I say , every forward Artizan will be unjustly challenging : Away then ( say I ) with the booke , whiles it may bee supplied with his more profitable non-sense ; and conclude , how fit it is , where is nothing but an empty over-weening , and proud ignorance there should bee a just restraint , a restraint , I say , in a limitation of the formes of prayer ; For what should Artizans have to do with preaching ? Or what such absurd project is there , in this just restraint ? Tell me now , Reader , whether this bee not as like Bellarmine , as the man in the Moone : Truely , how either the Cardinall came into the line , or the Noble Peere into the margin , he were wise that could tell . What was professed in the hearing of some of you , and some of your Superiours , of a willing condescent to part with that which is indifferent to themselves , if they might bee informed it is offensive to others , must be supposed to import , as a true information , so , a just offence ; wherein they should bee sure of the concurrence of some whom you are pleased to censure , as lesse mercifull ; then whom , none can bee more ready to make good that of Gregorie , in putting to their hand for the removing of customes truely burdensome to the Church . Thus you have very poorly vindicated the first part of your Answer concerning Liturgie , having made good nothing which you have undertaken , disproved nothing which I affirmed : and if ( as you professe ) your desire was a sincere pursuit of truth , you are the more to be pitied , that you missed it ; it is not yet too late for you to recover it ; bee but ingenuous , in confessing what you cannot but see , and wee cannot differ : And if you doe heartily joyne with me in lamenting the breaches , and miserable distractions of the Church , why should you not joyne with me in the effectuall indeavours to make them up ? Why do you suffer your hands to widen that , which your tongues would seeme to close ? If peace bee the thing you desire , who is it that hath broken it ? Wee are where we were ; the change is on your parts : and if there have beene some particular incroachments , and innovations in some few hands ; what is that to the whole Church of England ? what is that to those , whose proceedings have beene square and innocent ? Wee hope then that the Worthies of that High Court , the great Patrons of peace and truth , will soone see , and seriously consider where the grief of the Church lyes , and by their wisdoms put a seasonable end to these miserable , and dangerous distempers . SECT. III. YOur third Section is nothing but a meere jangle of words ; wherewith it was too much for the Reader to be once troubled ; for whose sake , I shall cut you up short ; making it apparent , that my affection to my cause , ( however you are pleased to scandalize my discourse ) hath no whit transported me to any over-reaching expressions , in lifting up the Antiquity , and extolling the universality of Episcopall government beyond truth . That which I spake of the Libellers abroad , your charity would faine have extended to forraine Churches ; now , as ashamed of the misprision , you would faine salve it up with a pretended probability of your mis-taken sense : for my part , now that my innocence is cleared , if you can put any honest colour upon your mis-understanding , I shall willingly connive at it ; although I must tell you there is enough dissimilitude in your instance . In what sense you meant the self-confoundednesse you impute to me , what matters it to the Reader ? such a one you confesse it was , that makes men speake they know not what ; It is a faire Livery , and well beseeming the bounty of such munificent hands . I justly professed my selfe so self-confounded , as to say confidently , that he is no peaceable and well affected Son of the Church of England , that doth not hate Libels , and wish well to Leiturgie and Episcopacy . Your charity ( presuming upon advantages ) dares to choake me with the name of a Parliament ; wherein how you will answer your injurious imputation to that High Court , I appeale to their Bar. To make the matter altogether envious , you guiltily leave out the first clause , concerning Libels , and aggravate the second ; and that which I professedly spake of Complainants , you spightfully draw home to the Iudges : whom I must still suppose , you doe hainously wrong , in fastening upon them this bold imputation of illaffectednesse to a well established Leiturgie , and a well-regulated Episcopacie : I beleeve those honourable Peeres , and noble Commons will give you small thanks for this insolent assertion . What I said , concerning the derivation of Episcopall government from the times of the Apostles , without the contradiction of any one Congregation in the Christian world , I am ready to make good against all your frivolous clamours ; Purposely to lay the ground of a quarrell , you intersert , Diocesan ; which came not within the termes of my proposition ; and to confute your owne addition , tell us how late Dioceses came into the Church , and now will needs inforce me to maintaine what your so magistrall power will put upon me : Pardon me , Brethren , I undertake to defend my owne words , not yours : But you say , as good to have said nothing at all , as not this ; and , we know what kinde of government it is that the Remonstrant pleads for : I grant , you have reason to guesse it ; but what is that to my proposition ? Whether they were Bishops of Cities , or Dicceses , or Parishes , or Provinces , that is not essentiall to the question : Neither doe we speake of them , quà Diocesani , but , quà Episcopi : if they were such as were placed in an imparity of degree above Presbyters , and were induced with an eminent power of jurisdiction and ordination , what ever the limits of their government were , my assertion holds good ; On this ground well might B. Hall say , that Timothy was a Diocesan Bishop , that is , sustained that place , and did those offices , which his successors being formall Diocesans , held and performed ; This kinde of Bishops , I defend to have continued in the Christian world unto this age , without the contradiction of any one Congregation ; You tell me of Scotland , as if I had affirmed , that there had beene Bishops alwayes , every where ; It is no small wonder to me how you can with such sober vehemence presse upon me so impossible an absurdity : when you plainly see , that all I contend for , is this , that there hath beene no time , no age from the Apostles dayes , wherein this forme of Episcopall government hath not been without contradiction continued ; Yet your importunity will force a Tenet upon me , mal-grè ; and tels me you are sure it is the assertion of Episcopall men ; amongst whom you cite D. Halls irrefragable proposition ; No man living , no history can shew any wel allowed , and setled Nationall Church , in the whole Christian world , that hath beene governed otherwise , then by Bishops , in a meet and moderate imparity , ever since the times of Christ and his Apostles , untill this present age ; and the like passage you bring out of his Episcopacy by Divine right part 2. p. 110. What can you make of these Allegations ? There is no one line in them , which I am not ready to justifie ; what one word is here liable to exception ? Will it follow from hence , that I affirme Bishops to have beene alwayes every where ? You see first it is limited to the Christian world , not the Pagan , and in that , not to every Parochiall Church , but a nationall ; and not to every nationall Church , which is in fieri , and inchoatè ; ( such as that of Scotland in those first times was ) but a setled Nationall Church ; and to make yet more sure , lest any schismaticall company might put in for a share , it is super-added , a well-allowed , setled , nationall Church . I should have acknowledged you brave vindicators , indeed , if now , in the height of your learned valour , you could have choaked me with direct and particular instances of any well-allowed , setled , national Churches in Christendome before this present age , that were otherwise governed . IN stead of this you tell me a tale of a sorry quarrell taken up against the Bishop of Pampelona by some barbarous Biscainers ; whose rudenesse when I proved to you by their Savage deportment to their King , you give a very civill and charitable construction of my Marginall , as intimating it no lesse crime to offer an affront to a Prelate , then to a King ; Thus love creepes where it cannot goe . But to mend the matter , you instance in the Reformed Churches ; they have made contradiction to Episcopal government ; True , but not till this present age ; That period was set before in my assertion , whence now arises your suddaine passion ; Sir bethinke you , take up your Remonstrance , reade your own words , mark the Parenthesis : Sir , I have done all this , and wonder what it is that you would have me to see , or to say ? The words are plaine , without either welt , or gard ; say what you would inferre upon them . The limitation of time here ( you say ) hath reference to the continuance of Episcopacy , not the contradiction of Episcopacy ; Certainly , in any indifferent Readers eye , to both : neither doth the verie scope of the place evince any lesse ; for could you suppose any man so utterly insensate , as to say ; By the joynt confession of Reformed Divines , the Reformed Churches of this age have never contradicted Episcopacy ? This were indeed a paradox fit for none but a self-confounded man : fasten it upon those that are fit for dark roomes and Ellebore . Iust such another is the next , you say ; Such another indeed , as truly affirmed , and as unjustly excepted to : That Episcopall government hath continued in this Iland , since the first plantation of the Gospell to this present day , without contradiction : what talke you of taking in the manner , and salving of credit ? as if you had your adversarie at a great advantage : {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , as the Greek proverb is , and as we are wont to say ; Here is great cry , and little wooll . For , whereas , the proposition may beare this double sense ; The continuance of Episcopacy in this Iland , hath had no contradiction ; or , There hath been no contradiction to the right of the continuance of it in this Iland ; at the choice of the propounder , I am ready to make it good in both senses , neither are you able justly to oppose it in either ; I am sure those instances which you bring , out of Wickliffe , Lambert , Richardus de Mediavilla , Occam , Walter Mapes , Robert Langland , in your next Section , will shrink in the wetting , and come farre short of your undertaking . BUt brethren , I must sadly tell you , that in your next , and last exception , you have exceeded your selves in malice ; what loud and hideous out cries have you made against me , both in your Answer , and Vindication , for a safe and innocent passage in my Remonstrance ? Speaking of the continuance and derivation of Episcopacy from the Primitive times , I had said ; Certainly , except all Histories , all Authors fayle us , nothing can be more plaine then this truth : Now comes your charitable veracity , and , in your Answer ( seconded now againe by your Vindication ) reports the words thus ; Except all Histories , all Authors fayle us , nothing can be more certaine then this truth ; and thereupon cry out , Os durum ! and descant fearfully upon the word , Nothing more certain ? What Is it not more certaine that there is a God ? Is it not more certaine that Christ is God and man ? Must this bee an Article of our Creed , &c. Nothing more certaine ? Oh that men should not onely forget themselves , but God also , and in their zeale for their own honour utter words bordering upon Blasphemy . Thus you ; whether like sober , and honest men , let the Reader judge ; who casting back his eye upon that passage of my Remonstrance , shall well finde that I have used no such word at all , as you have thus insolently and injuriously plaid upon : My phrase was onely , Nothing can be more plaine , you falsifie it , Nothing more certaine ; and run strange , and uncharitable descant upon it ; such as whereof I think your friends will be ashamed ; And when I , not urging the great difference of this expression , was willing to pass it over , with intimating onely the ordinary use of this manner of speech , in our hourely discourse , wherein we would be loath to be called to an account of our Creed ; yet still , as eager and unsatisfied , in this your Vindication , you redouble the charge upon me ; Wee cry out ( you say ) of such a shamelesnesse as dares equall this opinion of his , of Episcopall government to an Article of our Creed : When as here was no mention , no thought either of certainty , or of Creed ; but onely an harmeless affirmation of the cleare evidence of this truth : But I will not stirre this puddle any more ; onely beseeching my Reader , by this one passage to judge of the spirit of these men , so set upon detraction , and contradiction , that rather then they will want colours of exception , they will devise them out of their owne braines , and fasten them where they would disgrace . Lest this place should not yeeld you sufficient ground of so foule a crimination , you flye back to Episcopacy by Divine right , and thence will fetch a clearer conviction ; where the Author saith , He for his part is so confident of the divine institution of the Majority of Bishops above Presbyters , that he dare boldly say , there are weighty points of faith , which have not so strong evidence in Scripture ; He said it , and made it good by instances in the same place : Why do you snarle at the speech , and not confute the proofes ? Trie your skill in that one particular , the Baptization of Infants ; which , I am deceived , if the Church holds not a weighty point of faith ; Let us , if you please , enter into a serious contestation ; Shew me more cleare evidence of Scripture for this holy and universally received position , and practise , of Baptizing Infants , then I can produce for the Majority of Bishops above Presbyters ; till then give me leave to returne your owne prayer ; God give the men lesse confidence , or more truth ; and let me adde , more charity ; for truly , in whether of these two latter you are more defective , it is not easie to judge ; In the meane time you have as much failed in clearing your selves from those just imputations , which are laid upon you , as you have over-reached in the unjust bespattering of your stanch and innocent adversarie . ANd now forbeare ( if you can ) Readers , to smile in the parting , at the grave counsell of our wise Smectymnuus , who after he hath tyred his Reader with a tedious volume in answer to my short Defence , adviseth mee very sadly , that my words may bee lesse in number : Yet howsoever his weary loquacitie may , in this causelesse exprobration , deserve to move your mirth ; I shall resolve to make good use of his counsaile . Est olitor saepe opportuna locutus . In the sequele , my words ( which were never yet taxed for an offensive superfluitie ) shall be very few ; and such as , to your greater wonder , I shall be beholden for , to my kinde adversaries : The rereward of my late Defence was backed by the sound testimony of Dr. Abraham Scultetus , the famous professor of Heydelburgh , and the great Oracle in his time of the Palatinate , who in both the Tenets of Episcopacy by Divine right , and the unwarrantablenesse of Lay-presbytery agrees so fully with me , as I doe with my selfe , the grounds whereof , I dare confidently say , are such as no wit of man can overthrow , or weaken : Now what say my Smectymnuans to this ? For brevity sake , we will content our selves with what that learned Rivet spake , when these two Treatises of Scultetus were shewed to him , by a great Prelate amongst us , and his judgement required ; Haec omnia jamdudum sunt protrita & profligata , All these have beene long since overworne and beaten out and baffled . In good time , Brethren ; And why should not I take leave to returne the same answer to you in this your tedious velitation of Episcopacie ? There is not one new point in this your over-swolne , and unweldie bulk ; No hay-cock hath beene oftner shaken abroad , and tossed up and downe in the winde , then every argument of yours hath been agitated by more able pens then mine : Haec omnia jamdudum sunt protrita & profligata ; Why should I abuse my good houres ; and spend my last age ( devoted to better thoughts ) in an unprofitable babling ? You may perhaps expect to meet with fitter matches , that have more leasure ; The cause is not mine alone , but common to this whole Church , to the whole Hierarchy ; to all the Fathers of the Church throughout the world ; to all the dutifull Sons of those Fathers wheresoever ; You may not hope that so many learned and eminent Divines , who finde themselves equally interessed in this quarrell , can suffer either so just a cause unseconded , or so high insolence unchastised ; For my selfe , I remember the story that Plutarch tels of the contestation betweene Crassus and Deiotarus ; men well-stricken in age , and yet attempting severall exploits , not so proper for their gray haires : What , said Crassus to Deiotarus ; Doest thou begin to build a City , now in the latter end of the day ? And truly , said Deiotarus to him againe , I think it somewhat with the latest for you to think of conquering the Parthians : Some witty lookers on , will perhaps apply both these to me ; It is the city of God , the Euangelicall Hierusalem which some factious hands have miserably demolished , is it for shaking and wrinkled hands to build up againe , now in the very setting , and shutting in of the day ? They are dangerous and not inexpert Parthians , who shoot out their arrowes , even bitter invectives , against the sacred and Apostolicall government of the Church , and such as know how to fight , fleeing ; are these fit for the vanquishing of a decrepit Leader ? Shortly then , since I see that our Smectymnuans have vowed , ( like as some impetuous Scolds are wont to doe ) to have the last word ; and have set up a resolution ( by taking advantage of their multitude ) to tyre out their better imployed Adversary , with meere length of discourse , and to do that by bulk of body , which by cleane strength they cannot , I have determined to take off my hand from this remayning Controversie of Episcopacy ( wherein I have said enough already , without the returne of answer , and indeed anticipated all those thred-bare objections which are here againe regested to the weary Reader ) and to turne off my combined opposites to matches more meet for their age and quality : with this profession notwithstanding , that if I shall finde ( which I hope I never shall ) this just and holy cause ( whether out of insensiblenesse , or cautious reservednesse ) neglected by more able Defenders ; I shall borrow so much time from my better thoughts , as to bestow some strictures , where I may not afford a large confutation ; I have ever held {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , which as it holds in whatsoever matter of discourse , so especially in this so beaten subject of Episcopacy ; wherein since I finde it impossible for my Adversaries to fal upon any but former notions , oft urged , oft answered , For brevity sake we will content our selves with what that learned Rivet spake of the two Treatises of Scultetus , Haec omnia jam dudum sunt protrita & profligata : with this yet for a conclusion , that if in this their wordy , and wearisome Volume , they shall meet with any one argument , which they dare avow for new , they shall expect their answer by the next Post . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A45319e-190 Tertul. Apol. c. 30. pag. of The Defence — 13 August . Ep. 121. 14 Justin Martyr . Apol. 2. 14 Concil. Laodie . c. 8. 15 Concil. Carthag . 3. 15 Concil. Milevit . 2. 16 Hieron. ad Euagr. 61 Greg. Naz. Orat. 28. 65 Firmilianus in Cypr. Ep 75. 71 Ambr. in Presbyt . consignant . 72 Concil. Antioch . c. 10. 72 D. Raynolds . 101 Orig. contr. Cels . 141 August . contr. Crescon. l. 3. 146 In the Answer to the Humble Remonstrance . Episcopall bravado . p. 3 Treason , treason . p. 4 Episcopall zeal broke into flames of indignation . p. 6. We know not what his arrogancie might attempt . p. 14 So many falsities and contradictions . p. 15 A face of confident boldnesse . p. 15 A self-confounded man . p. 15 Notorious falsity . p. 15 Notorious — p. 16 Not leave his — p. 16 Os durum p. 18 Forgets not himself , but God also . p. 18 Words bordering upon blasphemie . p. 18 Indignation will not suffer us to prosecute these falsities . p. 18 A stirrup for Antichrist . p. 30 Antichristian government . p. 65 We thank God we are none of you . p. 74 Borders upon Antichrist . p. 80 Pride , Rebellion , Treason , Unthankfulnesse , which have issued from Episcopacie . p. 85 Defence , p. 48. Notes for div A45319e-1950 Doth hee say , those Iudges were called Areopagi ? Parag. 2. Answ . p. 4. They cite it [ No lesse haynous ] These words [ Ruling under one acknowledged Soveraigne ] are purposely left out in their citation of them to make the proposition odious : what fidelity there is in this , let the Reader judge . The first and greatest Zelot at Franckford . lib de obedient . And Buchanan in his Booke de jure Regni . Nos autem id contendimus , populum à quo Reges nostri habent quicquid juris sibi vendicant , regibus esse potentiorem , jus quidem in illos habere multitudinē , &c. Buchan . de jure Regni . Parag. 3. Parag. 4. Cypr. l. 3. ep. 9. Act for the Uniformity of Common Prayer . 1● . Eliz. Tolerabiles ineptiae . In Anglorū controversia moderationē tenui , cujus me non poenitet . Cal. Epist. Parag. 2. Author of the use of publique Prayer . This is that which is ordinarily termed by thēA Sacrifice of fools , out Eccles. 5. 1. Precantes sumus pro omnibus Imperatoribus ; vitam prolixam , imperiū securū , domū tutam , exercitus fortes , senatū fidelē , populum probum , orbem quietum . Tert. Apol. c. 30. Your cavill in the Margin of your book , shews you want matter of quarrell ; The Suas , which you would have in stead of Nostras , is a disadvantage to your self : Those are called the peoples Prayers , which the Church ever had , and shall have ; and those were to be looked on , therefore prescribed , and to be read ; there being a clear opposition betwixt Audirent , and Intuerentur . Iustin Mart. Apol. 2. Use of publique Prayers . The word may as well imply all intention of voyce , because the congregation was large . Pag. 15. Parag. 3. Conc. Laod. c. 19. Conc. Laod. c. 8. Conc. Carthag. 3. c. 23. Centur. Magdeb. cent . 3. c. 6. Concil. Milevit . 2. Vid. Author of the use of publike Prayer . pag. 8 , 9. Cent. 3. c. 6. Where we often in our prayer , say , Give us , O Lord Almighty , give us a portion with thy Prophets , give us a portion with the Apostles of thy Christ , grant that we may be found in the footsteps of thine onely begotten Son . Parag. 4. So Hannah made her private prayers in the house of God , 1 Sam. 1. 10. Mor. de Ples . de Missa . l. 1. c. 3. P. Fagius in Paraphras . Chald. in Lev. 16. & in 23. Du Pless . de Missa & ejus partibus . l. 1. c. 5. ( Verba tanquam concepta ) the very words as conceived by him . Lyran. in Lev. 16. Lud Cappell . Spic in Act. 3 Whence we may see , that the prayer for which Peter and John went up to the Temple , was that which the Jews called {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The lesser Oblation ; which answered to the Evening Oblation prescribed by the Law , &c. Parag. 5. Postea mortuus est Adrianus , cujus Deus non misereatur ; obiitque cum luctu & magna contritione ; Tempus autem regni , anni sunt 21. ( Deus conterat ejus ossa ) ita ut computus annorum ab Adamo ad mortem ejus 4513. mens. 7. Quo tempore &c. abstulit librum optimum qui penes illos fuit , jam inde a diebus illis tranquillis & pacificis , qui comprehendebat cantiones & preces sacrificiis praemissas ; Singulis enim sacrificiis singulas praemiserunt cantiones jam tum diebus pacis usitatas , quae omnia accurate conscripta in singulas transmissa subsequentes generationes à tempore Legati ( Moses sc. ) ad hunc usque diem per ministorium Pontificum Max. Hunc ille librum abstulit , &c. quo libro historia nulla praeter Pentateuchū Mosis antiquior invenitur , &c. Chron. Samaritan . Parag. 6. Num. 10. 35 , 36. Num. 6. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26. Capell . spicil . in Act. 2. P. Fagius in Chal. Parap . Levit. 16. O Domine , peccarunt , iniqua egerunt , &c. Et cum offerret juvencum pro peccato . Ubi supra . P. Fagius in Chal. Parap . Deut. 8. Parag. 7. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . Euseb. de vita Const. li . 4. c. 17. Morn . de Pless . lib. de Miss. cap. 5. Concil. Anc. Luke 1. Heb. 9. 21. 1 Cor. 9. 12. Parag. 8. Paragr. 9. Paragr. 10. Paragr. 11. Paragr. 12. Paragr. 13. Paragr. 14. Paragr. 15. Calvin Epist. to the Protector , &c. prius citat . Paragr. 16. Paragr. 17. Paragr. 18. Paragr. 19. Para. 2. Para. 2. Pag. 21. Episc. by D. R. p. 2. 127. Para. 4. Plutarch in vita Crassi .