the riches of gods love unto the vessells of mercy, consistent with his absolute hatred or reprobation of the vessells of wrath, or, an answer unto a book entituled, gods love unto mankind ... in two bookes, the first being a refutation of the said booke, as it was presented in manuscript by mr hord unto sir nath. rich., the second being an examination of certain passages inserted into m. hords discourse (formerly answered) by an author that conceales his name, but was supposed to be mr mason ... / by ... william twisse ... ; whereunto are annexed two tractates of the same author in answer unto d.h. ... ; together with a vindication of d. twisse from the exceptions of mr john goodwin in his redemption redeemed, by henry jeanes ... twisse, william, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the riches of gods love unto the vessells of mercy, consistent with his absolute hatred or reprobation of the vessells of wrath, or, an answer unto a book entituled, gods love unto mankind ... in two bookes, the first being a refutation of the said booke, as it was presented in manuscript by mr hord unto sir nath. rich., the second being an examination of certain passages inserted into m. hords discourse (formerly answered) by an author that conceales his name, but was supposed to be mr mason ... / by ... william twisse ... ; whereunto are annexed two tractates of the same author in answer unto d.h. ... ; together with a vindication of d. twisse from the exceptions of mr john goodwin in his redemption redeemed, by henry jeanes ... twisse, william, ?- . jeanes, henry, - . vindication of dr. twisse. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ], p. printed by l.l. and h.h. ... for tho. robinson, oxford : . some parts have special title pages. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng hoard, samuel, - . -- gods love to mankind. goodwin, john, ?- . -- redemption redeemed. mason, henry, ?- . -- certain passages in mr. sam. hoard's book entituled, god's love to mankind. hammond, henry, - . predestination. arminianism -- controversial literature. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion of all those weighty parcells of gospell truth , which the arminians have chosen to oppose , there is not any about which they so much delight to try and exercise the strength of fleshly reasonings , as that of gods eternall decree of reprobation : partly because the scripture doth not so abound in the delivery of this doctrine , as of some others , lying in a more immediate subserviency to the obedience and consolation of the saints , ( though it be sufficiently revealed in them , to the quieting of their spirits who have learned to captivate their understandings to the obedience of faith ) and partly because they apprehend the truth thereof , to be more exposed to the riotous opposition of mens tumultating carnall affections , whose help and assistance they by all meanes court and solicite in their contests against it . thus the author of the book entituled ( gods love to mankind ) being desired to render a reason of the change his faith , in passing over to the tents of the arminians , he drawes forth only this one poynt to make shew of , for the hinge of his alteration . many learned men know with what applause that book of his was received and divulged , by that whole generation which had then wrapped up the ball of the errors promoted by it , in the gilded covering of preferment , and carried it away before them . they being by providence removed from that station and conjunction unto power , whence they had their effectual influence on the earth , god foresaw ( if he may be allowed to foresee ) what reinforcement upon other hands their abominations would receive , and therefore in his tender love made provision for his church before hand , as by others , so in especiall by the renowned author of this treatise , whose paines herein , intended by him for the conviction of them , with whom after much forbearance god intended to take another course , are now seasonably brought to light , to stop the mouthes of another generation risen up in their steed , ( enemies of gods soverainty and grace ) untill he shall be pleased to deale otherwise with them . god is not mo●●ed , that which men sow they shall reap . it is well known what spheare this learned author moved in ; how farre elevated above any possibility of my reaching the least esteeme to him or his labours : this ( being desi●ed by my worthy and learned friend the publisher , to expresse my th●ughts upon its perusall ) i shall take the boldnesse to say , that this trea●ise of our author , comes not any whit behind the choycest of thos● other eminent workes of his , wherein in this cause of god , he faithfull● served his generation . i doubt not but it will appeare to the reade● , that he hath dealt with the adversaries of the truth , in their chiefest ●olds , advantages and strengths , putting them to shame in the calumnyes and lyes which they make their refuge . iohn owen vicecan . oxon. the riches of gods love unto the vessells of mercy , consistent with his absolute hatred or reprobation of the vessells of wrath. or an answer unto a book entituled gods love unto mankind , manifested by disproving his absolute decree for their damnation . in two bookes the first being a refutation of the said booke , as it was presented in manuscript by mr hord unto sir nath : rich. the second being an examination of certain passages inserted into m. hords discourse , ( formerly answered ) by an author that conceales his name , but was supposed to be mr mason , rector of andrews-undershaft in london . by that great and famous light of gods church , william twisse d. d. and prolocutor of the late assembly of divines . whereunto are annexed two tractates of the same author in answer unto d. h. the one concerning gods decrees definite or indefinite . the other about the object of predestination . together with a vindication of d. twisse from the exceptions of m r john goodwin in his redemption redeemed . by henry jeanes minister of god's word in chedzoy . rom. . . o man , who art thou that repliest against god , shall the thing formed , say to him that formed it , why hast thou made mee thus ? v. . hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessell to honour , and another unto dishonour . oxford , printed by l. l. and h. h. printers to the university , for tho : robinson . anno salutis m. dc . liii . to the worshipfull , and his honoured uncle , michael oldisworth esquire , and a member of the parliament of the common-wealth of england . sir , i have often heard you professe a deep dislike of the unnaturall vanity of the english nation , in preferring strangers in all callings above such of their own country men , as farre surpassed them . and of this unjust partiality , no profession hath tasted in a greater measure , than that of divinity ; for of our ministers , such whom god hath best fitted with parts and learning for the discussing of controversies , have been so undervalued in comparison of some forraine divines , whose learning was little better than systematicall ; as that they languished in their private studies , and had dyed in obscurity , unlesse the fame of their great abilities had been eccho'd over unto us by the generall applause of all christendome . nay this sometimes hath not awakened us unto a due estimation of them . d r ames was looked upon abroad , as one that amongst protestant writers had few , either superiors , or equalls , for subtilty in logick , and scholasticall divinity ; and yet he dyed an exile from his native soyle , so that his tombe might have had that inscription upon it , which scipio by his will appoynted to be on his ; ingrata patria ne ossa mea quidem habes , unthankfull country , thou hast not so much as my bones . of how great reputation this our author was beyond the seas , i had rather you should heare from the able and judicious rivet , than by mee , who am censured by some ( who i am sure much overvalue their own judgements ) to have too high and admiring thoughts of him . rivet ( in his epistle prefixed unto a late book of d. twisses against arminius and corvinus &c. ) will assure you that the most learned men in the whole christian world , even those who are of the adverse party , doe confesse that there was nothing yet extant more accurate , exact , and full , touching the arminian controversies , than what was written by d. twisse . as also that he ( if any one ) hath so cleared and vindicated the orthodoxe cause from objected absurdities , and the calumnies of adversaries , as that out of his labours , not only the learned , but also those who are least versed in controversies , may find enough whereby to disentangle themselves from the snares of opposites . indeed there is none almost that hath written against arminianisme since the publishing of any thing of d r twisses on that subject , but have made very honourable mention of him , and have acknowledged him to be the mightiest man in these controversies , that this age hath afforded . and yet this worthy and able combatant for the truth and cause of god , was here at home designed unto ruine , as i have found in a manuscript under his owne hand . this i grant was by the canterburian faction , but withall i could tell strange stories of the neglects that were heaped upon him by some , who were ( i believe ) zealous ( i am sure forward ) sticklers for a reformation . these men ( me think ) should blush at the ingenuous testimony , which bishop hall ( though dissenting from him about church goverment ) gave of his eminent worth in a letter of his to m r w. s. by way of approbation of a small piece of d r twisses entituled , the doubting conscience resolved &c. the doctor ever declined conference by word of mouth , as out of modesty , so because he thought the more deliberate way of the pen , to be quieter , and fitter too , for the bolting out of the truth : and hereupon he spake not much in the late assembly of divines at westminster . this , some ( who talked their shares ) interpreted as an argument of the former weaknesse , or at least present decay of his intellectualls . but as sophocles , when his sonnes brought him into question for dotage , is reported to have recited a tragedy of oedipus coloneus , which he had last written , and had in his hands , and to have demanded whether that seemed the verse of a dotard , or no. so our doctor could have stop'd the mouths of these bold censurers by publishing very masculine and vigorous pieces that he penned in even his most declining age. i may wish but i doe not expect , to live so long , as to see any thing published touching this argument more convincing the adversary , than this elaborate and weighty discourse ; and yet some , who are perk'd up into places , unto which their parts and gifts bare no proportion , have very lately bespattered it as lame , imperfect , and i know not what . but the best of it is , this their detracting from it , is not likely to be any disadvantage to it ; for it was so farre from working that mischievous effect , which it seemes they intended , as that it begat in those who heard it , and unto whom it was afterwards reported , only an admiration , and a serious indignation at the immodest impudence of such raw young men , who are no better skill'd in polemicall divinity , then the mock councel of the great duke of muscovie are in state affaires , which is made up of the gravest and seem liest men of all musco , and the adjoyning citties , richly apparrelled out of the wardrope ; which to sorrainers , not knowing this fraude , appeare so many princes , and noble men ; but indeed are meane and unqualified persons , and of no more ability , than so many pictures in a fairewrought hanging , that serve only to cover a wall. but i appeale from the rash and unrighteous censures of these presumptuous novices , unto your more knowing and candid judgement , who as you highly reverenced this our author whilest living , so have you ever since his death borne a zeale unto his memory , and therefore i am assured that this book of his will find with you , not only a favourable , but also a gratefull acceptation ; and the same confidence i have concerning all rationall , learned , and orthodoxe men , unto whose reading i commend it , and that unto the blessing of the almighty ; and so i rest , your deeply obliged , and most humbly devoted nephew , henry jeanes . to the reader . in the days of our henry the th the whole convocation offered unto s r thomas moore the sum of foure thousand pounds at the least , thereby to recompence , in part , the paines , and travailes he had taken , in writing for the defence of the romish faith ; which my author miscalls the true catholicke faith. now the undertakings of s r thomas moore for the popish cause , are not worthy to be named the same day with the performances of doctor twisse against the enemies of god's grace , both jesuites , and arminians ; i was therefore ( i confesse ) transported with a just both sorrow and indignation , when i could not prevaile with any ( though i solicited diverse ) to adventure upon the printing of this following worke of his , without a large supply towards the the charge thereof . a his latine workes have rendred him so renowned in forraine churches , as that they have looked upon him as the bradwardine of the age. the states of west-friezland , unto whom he was no otherwise known , than by his answer to arminius his book against perkins , offered him the greatest preferment that a minister in that country is capable of , viz. the place of a professor of divinity in the university of franeker , and took order for defraying the charges of his journey , and transportation of his family ; and were this book , that i now present unto thy view ( unto which there is not in the english tongue any peere for solidity , and accuratenesse in scholasticall divinity ) translated into latine , i am perswaded that outlandish divines would have such an estimate of it , as s t jerome had of certaine bookes of the martyr lucian written with his own hand , which he valued as a precious jewell ; or as beza had of a commentary of m r rollocke upon the romans and ephesians ; concerning which he wrote unto a friend , that he had gotten a treasure of incomparable value . it was therefore very strange unto me , that there should be any knowing and sober persons who should either despaire or doubt of the acceptation thereof ; but my wonder would have been swallowed up of a greater amazement , if i had known that , of which i was since by a good hand informed , that this active , unwearied , and victorious champion of gods grace , lived in great want even whilest he was prolocutor of the late assembly of divines . nay which is stranger yet , that he was slighted by some of his owne calling ; who , if they had not much forgotten themselves , would ( seeing they swam in all plenty ) have imitated ( in some degree at least ) that forementioned example of the gratefull munificence of a popish convocation unto s t thomas moore . d r ames , in his preface to the diocesans tryall of that worthy divine m r paul baine , tells us , that the said m r baine , was all his life after his silencing pressed with want , not having , as he often complained unto his friends , a place to rest his head in , which me thought ( saith d r ames ) was an upbraiding of the age and place where he lived with base regardlesnesse of piety and learning . if i should apply the like censure unto those that neglected this our author ( the glory of his age , and ornament of his nation ) i should not be over bitter , he is now above any recompence to be made unto him in his owne person by us ; but we may expresse a gratefull memory of him , as unto his children , so unto the issue of his minde , his bookes . i speake not only for the entertainment of those that are extant ; but for bringing into the light those pieces , that lye in the hands of his children ; which are likely to be buried in dust , and perpetuall oblivion . if i had but halfe that interest in great personages , which diverse of my brethren in both the universities , & in the city of london have , i should apply my selfe with an undeniable importunity , to perswade them unto so good , and great a worke , which will purchase them a precious memory with the godly and learned in all future ages of the church . i have but one thing more to say of the booke , before i take my leave of thee : if any arminian whatsoever will give a just , full , and scholasticall answer unto it , i shall by god's helpe returne him a reply ; for 't is de causa dei ( as bradwardine entitles his booke ) and in defence of god's cause i shall feare no colours . but if the ignorant paper-blurrers of the time shall snarle , and snap only at some few passages , they are not to expect , that so much as any serious notice should be taken of them . thine , in all the obligations of charity and truth henry jeanes . the first book in two parts : whereof , the first containeth a consideration of those reasons for which mr hord ( as he pretended ) first questioned the truth of absolute reprobation . the second examineth those arguments against the absolutenesse of divine reprobation , which m. hord took to be of a convincing nature . oxford , printed by leon : lichfield , for tho : robinson . anno salutis m. dc . liii . a table of the principall matters contained in this treatise , wherein the answer unto mr. mason's additions is referred in such order , as that it is made aptly to cohere with the refutation of m. hords discouerse . an examination of the epistle to the reader . lib. . p. , , , , . the maine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or question in these controversies propounded and stated , together with the different opinions of remonstrants and contra-remonstrants , both supralapsarians , and sublapsarians concerning it , examined . lib. . pag. , , . &c. usque ad p. , and p. , . usque ad p. . l. . p. , , , , , , . the absolute decree cleared from m r hord's reasons both inducing , and convincing . . and first to begin with those , for which ( as he pretended ) he first questioned the truth of absolute reprobation , where the absolute decree is vindicated from the charge . . of novelty , lib. . p. . &c. usque ad p. . l. . p. , , , , , , . . of unwillingnesse to abide the tryall lib. . a p. . ad . l. . p. . . . . . of infamie . lib. . a p. . ad p. . l. . p. . , . . of affinity with the old and exploded errors of the stoicks , and manichees lib. . p. , . &c. usque ad p. . . those arguments against the absolutenes of divine reprobation according to both the upper and lower way , which m r hord tooke to be of a convincing nature , are examined . . m r hord's or m r mason's arguments against the upper or supralapsarian way are answered . lib. . p. . &c. where , . the upper or supralapsarian way is vindicated from the dishonouring of god in two particulars . . it doth not charge him with mans destruction . lib. . a p. . ad p. . . it doth not charge him with mens sinnes . lib. . a p. . ad l , . a p. . ad . . the upper or supralapsarian way is cleared from the overthrow of religion , and holy life , and that in foure particulars . . it maketh not sinne to be no sinne . lib , . p. , , . l. . a p . ad . . it taketh not away the conscience of sinne . lib. . p. , , l. . p. , , . . it taketh not away the desert and guilt of sinne . lib. . p. , , , . l. . p , , &c. usque ad p. . . it maketh not the whole circle of mans life a meere destiny . lib. . p. , , , , , . . those pretended convictive arguments against absolute reprobation which proceed as it is stated according to the sublapsarian or lower way . lib. . p. . &c. and it is fully and clearly evinced that the sublapsarian doctrine is not repugnant unto . . testimonies of scripture . . attributes of god. . end of the word , and sacrament , with other excellent gifts of god to men . . holy and pious endeavors . . the grounds of comfort , whereby distressed consciences are to be relieved . . the sublapsarian doctrine concerning absolute reprobation is not repugnant to scripture . lib. . p. , . &c. particularly , not to ezek. . . as i live saith the lord god , i have no pleasure in the death of the wicked , but that the wicked turne from his way & live : turne ye , turne ye from your evill wayes ; for why will ye dye o house of israel . lib. . p. &c. nor to ezek. . . i have no pleasure in the death of him that dyeth , saith the lord god ; wherefore turne your selves and live ye . lib. . p. , , , . not to rom. . . for god hath concluded them all in unbeliefe , that he might have mercy upon all . lib. . p. , . not to iohn . . . god so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten son &c. lib. . p. , , . not to . tim. . . who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . lib. p. , , , , . not to peter . . — not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance . lib. . p. , , . not to those conditionall speeches which are in cron. . . and cron. . . and gen. . . and heb. . . lib. . p. , , , . . the sublapsarian doctrine &c. is not contrary unto gods attributes ; to the clearing of which , a discourse premised concerning gods atributes in generall is refuted . lib. . p. , , &c. unto p. . this done , our author comes to shew in speciall , how that the sublapsarian doctrine doth not oppugne . . god's holinesse . lib. . p. , , &c. unto p. . . god's mercy . lib. . p. , &c. unto p. . l. . p. , . . god's justice . lib. . a p. . ad . l. . a p. . ad . . god's truth or sincerity . lib. . a p. . ad . l. . a p. . ad p. . . the sublapsarian doctrine not contrary to the use and end of god's gifts to men . lib. a p. . ad . l. . p. . . . the sublapsarian doctrine not prejudiciall to piety and a godly life . lib. . a p. . ad . l. . p. , , . . the sublapsarian doctrine no enemy to true comfort . lib. . p. , &c. usque ad finem . by this table ( reader ) thou maist correct the mistitleing of pages , as lib. . p. , , , . . & lib. . p. , , , , , . & p. , , , . & a p. ad p. . reader i would advise thee to begin with the examination of those arguments against the absolutenesse of divine reprobation ( which m r mason and m r hord tooke to be of a convincing nature ) by which method in reading thou wilt the sooner meet with that abundant satisfaction , which this worke will yeeld , as touching this controversy , unto all that are capable or desirous thereof . the first part . containing a consideration of those reasons , for which m r hord ( as he pretended ) first questioned the truth of absolvte reprobation . oxford , printed by l. l. printer to the university , for t. r. anno . this treatise divides it selfe into two parts , viz. . an introduction . . a discourse . i. the introduction . section i. sir , i have sent you here the reasons , which have moved me to change my opipion in some controversies , of late debated between the remonstrants and their opposites , i doe the rather present them unto you , . that i may shew the due respect , which i beare your worship , with my forwardnes to answer your desires , as i can , with regard to conscience . . that you may see , i dissent not without cause , but have reason on my side . . that if i can be convinced , that my grounds are weake and insufficient , i may think better of my opinion , which i have forsaken , then i can for the present . in the delivery of my motives , i shall proceed in this order , i will state the opinion which i dislike . i will lay down my reasons against it . touching the first your worship knowes these two things very well ; that the main 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and question in these controversies , and that on which all the rest hang , is , what the decrees of god are , touching the everlasting condition of men , and how they are ordered . . that the men which have disputed these things may be reduced to two sorts or sides . the first side affirmes , that there is such an absolute decree , proceeding from the good pleasure of god alone , without the consideration of mens finall unbeliefe and impenitency , as , by which he casteth men off from grace and glory , and shuts up the farr greater part of men ( even of those that are called by the preaching of the gospel to repentance and salvation ) under invincible and unavoydable sin and damnation . the other side , disavowing any such decree , say , that the decree of god to cast off men for ever , is grounded upon the foresight of their continuance in sin and unbeliefe , both avoydable by grace , and consequently inferring no mans damnation necessary . twisse . consideration . worthy sir , according to your desire to take into consideration this writing directed unto you , at length i have gotten some leasure from other imployments , to addresse my selfe to give you satisfaction in this particular . that i may shew my selfe answerable to that respect which you have deserved at my hands ; and not so only , but to my zeale of gods truth , which hath deserved much more at the hands of us both . that you may the better discern which of us two , whom you put to conferre , doth maintain the cause of gods truth , and hath the best reasons on his side . as for the change of opinion here mentioned , such professions are nothing strange . but whether such a profession be in truth , or in pretence , and rather liberty taken to manifest that opinion , which formerly hath been cherished : as also with what conscience voyd of all carnall respects , such a change or manifestation is made , it belongs not unto us to judge , but to leave that unto god , who tryeth the hearts and reynes . sure we are , the heart of man is full of deceitfulnesse , both to deceive others , yea and to deceive our selves , the more need there is to be jealous over our selves , and to carry a watchfull eye over our own soules , and whether we have chang'd a former way , or at the first chose one or other way , and continue to imbrace that , whereof we have been at first informed ; not to despise , but in the feare of god , to practice that holy counsell of the apostle given to the corinthians , a famous church , and such as were destitute of no spirituall gift . prove your selves , whether you are in the faith , examine your selves : know ye not your own selves , that jesus christ is in you , except ye be reprobates ? as also to consider how indifferently we carry our selves , in using means to inform our selves in the way of truth , and whether they be not such as doe discover our chiefe care hath been to bring our judgements about , to the imbracing of that way ( whether truth or errour ) which formerly we did effect . certaine it is , that heresies must be , and that to this end , that they that are approved may be made manifest . and illusions shall have their course , when the truth of god is not imbraced with love , whatsoever be the pretence of our disaffecting it , whether harshnes to affections , or discrepancy to carnall reason . and when such judgements have their course , who are priviledged from being seduced ? let our saviour speake in this , so that if it were possible men should deceive the very elect . upon what may we be assured to stand firme in time of such temptation ? let the apostle answer us in this , when after the effectuall working of satan in them that perish , he comes neere to them to whom he writes in the way of comfort thus , but we ought to give thankes alway to god , for you brethren beloved of the lord , because that god hath from the beginning chosen you unto salvation through sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth . like as before he did conclude unto himselfe their election , from observation of the work of their faith , the labour of their love , and the patience of their hope . and the greater is the comfort which hereby is ministred unto us , the greater should be our care , to informe our selves aright , in the doctrine thereof , and especially to have an eye unto it , that we doe not shape it in such a manner , that like as it is impossible we should have any assurance thereof , so it will prove equally impossible we should draw any comfort from thence . . but is it so , as here it is put upon you , that you knew very well indeed , that the main 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and question in these controversies , and that on which all the rest hang , is , what the decrees of god are , touching the everlasting condition of men , and how they are ordered ? i assure you , if you knew this , you know more then i doe . i had thought rather that the resolution of the point concerning predestination , had depended upon the resolution of the point touching grace efficacious , then the contrary . as namely , if faith be confessed to be the gift of god , and that not with respect to any thing in man , it followeth herehence , that predestination unto faith , and reprobation from faith , must proceed mecrely upon the good pleasure of god , and not upon foresight of ought in man. there was a time when austin thought , that god elected some to bestow the holy ghost upon them , that by working that which is good , they might obtain everlasting life : and who were those whom he thus elected ? namely such as whom he foresaw would believe : and what was his reason for it ? surely this ; quod ergo credimus nostrum est , quod autem bona operamur , illius est , qui credentibus dat spiritum sanctum ; quod profeciò non dicerem , si jam scirem , etiam ipsam fidem inter dei munera reperiri quae dantur in eodem spiritu . marke i pray the manner of his retractation , i would not have said ( so ) if at that time i had known faith to have been amongst the gifts of god , which are given in the same spirit . so then as soon as austin came to acknowledg , that faith it selfe was the gift of god , he therewithall came off from affirming , that quem sibi crediturum esse praescivit , ipsum elegit , cui spiritum sanctum daret ut bona operando etiam vitam aeternam consequeretur . and like as before he maintained , that god elected some ( to wit , believers ) to bestow the holy spirit upon them , that by working good workes , they might obtain also everlasting life ; so now having found that faith also , is the gift of god , he was accordingly to maintain , that god elected some to bestow the holy spirit upon them , that both by believing , and working good workes , they might obtain everlasting life : so that no longer was the foresight of faith , to precede election in austins opinion , to wit , after once he knew faith to be the gift of god. and accordingly in his book de praedestin . sanctorum , addressing himselfe to the rectifying of the massilienses in the poynt of predestination , wherein they did not as yet discerne the truth of god : adhuc in quaestione caligant de praedestinatione sanctorum . cap. . and againe , si quid de praedestinatione sanctorum aliter sapiunt ( deus ) illis hoc quoque revelabit . ibid. marke i pray you what course he takes to rectify them herein . cap. . priùs itaque fidem quâ christiani sumus donum dei esse debemus ostendere : and whereas he had performed this task very sufficiently before , manifesting by divers pregnant passages of holy scripture , that faith was the gift of god , and the massilienses did elude them by such a distinction as this , faith may be considered two waies , either as touching initium , the first beginning of it ; or as touching incrementum the augmentation thereof ; and accommodating this distinction said , the passages of scripture alleadged by austin proceeded as touching the augmentation of it , which they willingly granted to be the work of god ; but not as touching the initiation of it , which they still maintained to be the work of man. therefore austin addresseth himselfe in that discourse of his , to prove that the very initiation of faith , is the work of god , and not the augmentation only . his words are these , sed nunc iis respondendum esse video , qui divina testimonia , quae de hâc re adhibuïmus , ad hoc dicunt valere , ut noverimus ex nobis quidem nos habere ipsam fidem , sed incrementum ejus ex deo : tanquam fides non ab ipso donetur nobis , sed ab ipso tantum augeatur in nobis ex merito quo coepit à nobis . and likewise in the . cap. of the same book , having propounded the opinion of the pelagians , namely that because god foresaw that we would be holy and unblameable before him in love , therefore he elected and predestinated us in christ , before the foundation of the world ; and shew'd how this opinion , contradicts that of the apostle ephes . . , . where it is said , that , god elected us in christ , and predestinated us before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and unblameable before him in love : and perceiving withall how the massilians did avoid this as nothing contrary to their tenent ( though contrary to the pelagian tenent ) forasmuch as they maintained not , that god foresaw any thing but our faith , and therefore god elected us before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and unblameable before him in love , ( for these were their words ) nos autem dicimus nostram deum non praescisse nisi fidem & ideo nos elegisse — ut etiam sancti & immaculati gratia atquè opere ejus essemus ; what course doth austin take to beat them off but this , namely to prove , that , like as holines so faith also , and that as touching the initiation thereof , is the work of god. thus : sed audiant ipsi in hoc testimonio , ubi dicit , sortem consecuti simus , praedestinati secundum propositum qui universa operatur . ipse ergo ut credere incipiamus operatur qui universa operatur . so that it is cleer in the opinion of austin , that to take both himselfe and others off from premising the foresight of faith unto gods election , it is sufficient to prove that faith is the gift of god , the work of god both touching the augmentation , and touching the first introduction thereof . and thus evincing the condition of predestination , as excluding all foresight of faith , from the condition of predestination , as being throughout the work of god in man , rather then taking a contrary course , as if the main 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were , what is the condition of gods decree of predestination , as here it is pretended and supposed . and albeit it is commonly received of all sides ( as if it were without question ) that faith is the gift of god : yet we find practises on foot , for the working of a manifest innovation herein . for not to speak of their interpretations of their own meanings , as , in what sence they say god workes faith in us ; it is apparent the remonstrants now a daies , doe as good as professe , that faith is not bestowed upon us for christs sake , in as much as they deny that christ merited faith for us . for when the author of the censure passed upon the remonstrants confession , disputeth thus , at si hoc tantum meritus est christus tum christus nobis non est meritus fidem nec regenerationem : the remonstrants in the answer hereunto , forthwith confesse it in these words , sanè ita est . nihil ineptius , nihil vanius est quàm hoc christi merito tribuere . si enim christus nobis meritus dicatur fidem & regenerationem , tum fides conditio esse non poterit , quam a peccatoribus deus sub comminatione mortis aeternae exigeret . and by the way marke , i pray , that not any difference is put between faith and regeneration ; manifestly signifying thereby , that as they grant it to be the work of man to believe , so we are commanded to make our selves a new heart . and as for ordering of the decrees , which here is added to compleat the main 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as here is pretended that in my opinion , is so farr off from being the main 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as that it is not to be accounted any 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at all theologicall , but meerly logicall . let the condition of the decrees be rightly explicated according to divinity , and we shall have no need at all of divinity for the right ordering of them . a meer logicall faculty by light of nature , will serve for this . for the decrees whereof we treat , are meerely intentiones rerum gerendarum . now for the ordering of these in what kind soever , we have received rules of the schooles , never yet that i know contradicted by any ; namely , that they are to be ordered according to the condition of the things intended , which are but two , to wit , the end and the means ; and all doe attribute priority to the intention of the end , and posteriority to the intention of the means . it is true , men may erre , in designing the right end , as also , in designing the right means , and these errours are to be discovered , and the truth cleered by that science , whereunto the consideration of the end and means belong , and not by logick . but agreement being made concerning the end and means , there is no doubt to be made , but that according to the most received rules of schooles , the end must be acknowledged both first in intention , and last in execution , and contrarily the means last in intention and first in execution . . but come we to the decrees themselves , & the different opinions thereabouts , which follow in the next place . now here i looked for different opinions about decrees , in the plural number , but i find the relation extends no farther then to one decree , and that of reprobation . so at the first entrance reasons are promised , even in this writing , to be exhibited of chang of opinion in certain controversies in the plurall number , when in the issue , all comes but to one controversy , and that about reprobation . yet the scripture speaketh fully of election , sparingly of reprobation in most places , leaving us to judge thereof , by consequence from the doctrine of election yet some passages we have ( i confesse ) that give light and evidence to both alike . for like as it is said acts . last . that god added daily to the church such as should be saved . so cor. . . it is said , if our gospell be hid , it is hid to them that are lost , and as it is signified math. . that t is impossible seducers should prevaile over the elect . so thes . . both as much is signified ver . . and also expressed ver . . . that they shall prevaile among them that perish : and the cor. . . we are given to understand joyntly , that the preaching of the crosse is to them that perish foolishnesse : but unto us which are saved it is the power of god. and rom. . . that as god hath mercy on whom he will , so also he hardneth whom he will. and like as acts . . we read that , as many believed as were ordained to eternall life ; which phrase of ordaining to eternall life , i conceive ( under correction ) to be all one with the phrase of writing our names in heaven . luke . . and writing us in heaven . hebr. . . and this phrase i take to be all one with the writing of us in the book of life . so on the other side we read , that whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world should wonder when they beheld the be●st , and not so only but worship him also . but give we every vessel leave to vent that liquor whereof it is full . i come to the consideration of the different opinions here proposed , concerning the decree of reprobation ; and herein , i will endeavour to open a clear way to the right understanding of the truth , that your judgement may have the more free course in discerning it , and withall , to represent unto you , the unreasonable carriage of our adversaries in the setting downe of our tenent , whereby you may guesse , what you are to expect from them prosecuting against it . and herein i will insist upon these particulars . the first shall be the things decreed . the second the cause of this decree . the third , the persons on whom this decree doth passe . the fourth shall be that claw of unavoydable sin , and damnation . . the things decreed are here said to be , the casting off from grace and glory , and the shutting of men up under damnation . now i pray observe here in the first place , that , by casting off from grace and glory , we mean no other thing , then the not giving of grace and glory ; and by grace , we mean the grace of faith and repentance , the grace of regeneration . for like as in election god purposeth ( we say ) to give this grace unto some , which is the same with shewing mercy on them . rom. . . as we suppose ; so on the other side , god purposeth to deny this grace unto others , which in scripture phrase is to harden them , that being made opposite to gods shewing mercy . rom. . . and for the farther clearing of the termes we say , that god by giving faith and repentance , doth cure that infidelity and impenitency , which is naturall unto all , as being borne in sin : and by not giving this grace of faith and repentance unto others , god leaves their naturall infidelity and impenitency uncured . and if this author means ought else by shutting up under sin , then the not curing of their naturall infidelity and impenitency , he doth us wrong , and what he means thereby i know not . as for shutting up under damnation , that is not our phrase , but we love to speak in plain tearmes , and say , that god doth purpose to inflict damnation on them whom he reprobates . thus much for the cleering of the tearmes , as touching the things decreed . secondly , observe i pray , which is of principall consideration , that here we have no cause at all specified , why he refuseth to give them grace ; cunningly leaving it to an improvident reader to conceive , that the cause of the decree , which is here specified , to be the meer pleasure of gods will , is indifferently applyable to the not giving of grace and glory , and to the shutting up under damnation as the cause thereof , which is a notorious imposture , yet i doe not think this author guilty of it , but others rather , who abuse their witts by cunning courses , to deceive the hearts of the simple . amongst the fallacies observed by aristotle , there is one called fallacia plurium interrogationum , as when many things are put together , and an answer is required to be made , either affirmatively or negatively to them all , as if they were but one ; when indeed the answer cannot be made aright , without distinction of the things demanded , the one whereof perhaps requires an answer affirmative , the other negative . as for example , to instance as touching one of the controversies here declined : we are often demanded , whether every one that heareth the gospell , be not bound to believe that christ died for him ? now i say this phrase christ died for me includes many things , as the benefits which arise unto me by the death of christ , may be conceived to be many . but let these benefits be distinguished , and we shall readily answer to the question made , and that perhaps differently , as namely , affirmatively to some , negatively to others ; as thus . doe you speak of christs dying for me , that is , for the pardon of my sins , and for the salvation of my soule : i answer affirmatively and say , i am bound to believe that christ died for the procuring of these benefits unto me in such manner , as god hath ordained , to wit , not absolutely but conditionally , to wit , in case i doe believe and repent . for god hath not otherwise ordained , that i should reap the benefit of pardon and salvation , by vertue of christs death and passion , unlesse i believe in him and repent . but if question be made , whether i am bound to believe that christ died for me , to procure faith and repentance unto me ; i doe not say , that i am bound , or that every one who hears the gospel , is bound to believe this . nay the remonstrants now a daies , deny in expresse tearmes , that christ merited this for any at all . i am not of their opinion in this ; but i see clearly a reason manifesting , that christ merited not this for all , no not for all and every one , that hears the gospel . for if he had , then either he hath merited it for them absolutely or conditionally . not absolutely , for then all and every one of them should believe de facto , which is untrue ; for the apostle saith , fides non est omnium : nor conditionally , for what condition i pray can be devised , upon the performance whereof , god for christs sake should give us faith , and repentance ? in like sort , if i am demanded whether god did decree , of the meer pleasure of his will , to refuse to give grace and glory unto some , and to inflict upon them damnation . to this i cannot answer at once , there being a fallacy in the demand . but distinguish them , i answer and say , that , as touching the poynt of denying grace , god doth that of his meer pleasure ; but as touching the denyall of glory , and the inflicting of damnation , he doth not decree to doe these of meer pleasure , but rather meerly for sin , to wit , for their infidelity and impenitency , and all the bitter fruits that shall proceed from them . so that reprobation according to our tenent rightly stated , is the decree of god partly to deny unto some , and that of his meer pleasure , the grace of faith and repentance , for the curing of that infidelity and hardnes of heart , which is naturall unto all , and partly to deprive them of glory , and to inflict damnation upon them , not of his meer pleasure , but meerly for their finall continuance in sin , to wit , in infidelity and impenitency , and all the fruits that proceed therehence . . now as for the cause of this decree , as likewise of all the decrees of god , when any of our divines say , that it is the meer pleasure of god , as in some places it is expressed of some decrees , let them be understood aright ; not as if they distinguished between the decree of god , and the good pleasure of his will ; for we know full well , that the decree of god is the good pleasure of his will , what decree soever it be : but hereby we only exclude , all causes from without , moving god to make any such decree ; like as when it is said , deuteron . . . the lord did not set his love upon you , nor chuse you , because ye were more in number then any people , but because the lord loved you , as much as to say , the lord loved you , because he loved you . where we cannot soberly devise any distinction between love and love , as between the cause and the effect ; only hereby is excluded all cause from without . now we are ready with open face to professe , that of the will and decree of god , there neither is , nor can be any cause from without : all things from without being temporall , and the will of god being eternall , and the will of god quoad actum volentis , being the very essence of god ; for god is a pure act and that indivisibly one , whereby he is said to bee whatsoever he is , as wee doe conceive variety of perfections in god , yet all these are but one indivisible act in god ; and by this one indivisible act , he both knowes all that he knowes , and willeth and decreeth all that he willeth and decreeth . man when he willeth any thing , as likewise an angel when he willeth ought , they produce an act of willing passing upon this or that object : but it is not so with god , in whom there is no accident . and therefore aquinas was bold to professe , that never any man was so mad , as to professe that merits were the cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating : and why so ? why surely upon this ground , because predestination is the will of god : and like as nothing can be the cause of the will of god , as touching the act of willing , so nothing can be the cause of divine predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating . his words are these in the same place ; sic inquirenda est ratio praedestinationis , sicut inquiritur ratio divinae voluntatis . dictum est autem suprà , quod non est assignare causam divinae voluntatis ex parte actus volendi . but because like as the love of god is sometime taken for the good thing which god bestowes , like as jansenius interprets that place iohn . . . he that loveth me shall be beloved of my father , to wit , of the effect of the fathers love ; and we commonly say , that passions are attributed unto god not quoad affectum , but quoad effectum : in like sort the will of god is taken for the thing willed , as thes . . . this is the will of god , even your sanctification , that is , this is willed by him . therefore aquinas distinguisheth a double consideration in the will of god , one quoad actum volentis , and so it hath no cause from without ; another quoad res volitas , and so it may have a cause . so likewise in predestination as considering it either quoad actum praedestinantis , and so it hath no cause , or quoad effectum praedestinationis , and so it may have a cause , as there he professeth , both touching the will of god in generall , and touching predestination in speciall . of the will of god in generall , thus ; non est assignare causam voluntatis divinae ex parte actus volendi , sed potest assignari ratio ex parte volitorum , in quantum scilicet deus vult esse aliquid propter aliud . and of predestination in speciall , thus ; sed hoc sub quaestione vertitur , utrum ex parte effectus praedestinatio habeat aliquam causam ; & hoc est quaerere utrum deus praeordinaverit se daturum effectum praedestinationis alicui propter aliqua merita . now thus we acknowledge of predestination , both in the way of a meritorious cause on christs part , and in the way of a disposing cause on our part . for god we say , hath predestinated to bestow upon us , both grace and glory for christs sake ; where christ is made a meritorious cause of grace and glory , but not of the act of predestination . and farther we say , that god hath predestinated to bestow glory upon us , as a reward of grace , as a reward of faith , repentance , and good workes : and to this purpose it is said that god by his grace , doth make us meet partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light , coloss . . . but as for the bestowing of grace on any , we say there is no cause thereof on mans part , for he hath mercy on whom he will. rom. . . and he hath called us with an holy calling not according to our workes , but according to his own purpose and grace . timoth. . . now let us apply this to reprobation , which is the will of god , as well as predestination , and if there can be no cause of predestination quoad actum praedestinantis , because there can be no cause of the will of god quoad actum volentis ; who seeth not , that by the same reason , there can be no cause of reprobation quoad actum reprobantis ? and if it be a mad thing to maintain that merits are the cause of predestination quoad actum praedestinantis ; it must be as mad a thing to maintain , that any merits of the creature , can be the cause of reprobation quoad actum reprobantis . and this doctrine aquinas applies expresly to reprobation it selfe , upon the . rom. lect. da , at the end of these words praescientia peccatorum potest esse aliqua ratio reprobationis : but how ? ex parte actus reprobantis ? nothing lesse , but rather ex parte effectus ; and what effect ? not the denying of grace , but only as touching the inflicting of punishment : thus , praescientia peccatorum potest esse aliqua ratio reprobationis , ex parte paenae quae praeparatur reprobatis , in quantum scilicet deus proponit se puniturum malos propter peccata quae à seipsis habent non à deo. and farther we prove this , both by cleare evidence of scripture , and cleare evidence of reason , and thirdly by as cleare a representation of their infatuation that oppose this doctrine , and particularly of the author of this discourse . first by cleare evidence of scripture . rom. . . where the apostle proves , that election stands not of good works , by an argument drawn from the circumstance of the time , when that oracle , the elder shall serve the younger , was delivered ; together with the present condition of jacob and esau , answerable to that time ; thus , before the children were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said to rebecca , the elder shall serve the younger , therefore the purpose of god according to election stands not of good workes . now look by what strength of reason the apostle concludes this of election , by the same strength of argumentation may i conclude of reprobation , in proportion , thus , before the children were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said to rebecca the elder shall serve the younger ; therefore the purpose of god according to reprobation , stands not of evill workes : that is , like as good workes are not the cause of election , so evill workes are not the cause of reprobation , to wit , quoad actum reprobantis , as touching the very act and eternall decree of god it selfe . secondly , observe , i pray , whether my reason be not as cleare ; if god upon the foresight of sin , doth ordain a man unto damnation ; ( thus i am content to propose it in the most rigorous manner ) then this is done either by necessity of nature , or by the constitution of god : not by necessity of nature , as it is confessed ; and the cause is evident , for undoubtedly he could annihilate them , and so he can the holiest creature that lives , as all sides confesse . therefore it must be by the constitution of god : but neither can this hold . for if so , then god did constitute , that is ordaine , that upon the foresight of sin , he would ordaine men unto damnation . where observe that the act of divine ordination , is made the object of divine ordination : as much as to say , he did ordaine to ordaine , or he did decree to decree : whereas the objects of gods decrees are alwaies things temporall ; as for example , we say well , god did decree to create the world , to make man out of the earth , to send christ into the world , to preserve us , to redeeme us , sanctify us , save us . but gods ordination or decree is an act eternall , and cannot be the object of his decree or ordination . i challenge all the powers of darknes to answer this , and to vindicate the tenent , which i impugne , from that absurdity , which i charge upon it , if they can . o but some will say , it 's very harsh to say , that god of his meer pleasure doth ordain men unto damnation . i am content to doe my endeavour , to remove this scandall out of the way of honest hearts , yea and out of the way of others also . first therefore consider , is it fit to resist the evidence of divine truth , because it is harsh to mens affections ? secondly , wherein consists this harshnesse ? is it in this , that nothing is the cause of gods decree ? and will nothing temper the harshnes of it , unles a thing temporall as sinne , be made the cause of gods will , which is eternall and even god himselfe ? but let us deale plainly , and tell me in truth , whether the harshnes doth not consist in this , that the meer pleasure of gods will , seems to be made the cause , not of gods decree only , but of damnation also ; as if god did damne men , not for sin , but of his meer pleasure . and this i confesse is wondrous harsh , and yet no more harsh then it is untrue , though in this jugling world , things are so carried by some , who will both shuffle , and cutt , and deale themselves , as if we made god of meer pleasure to damne men , and not for sin , which is a thing utterly impossible : damnation being such a notion , as hath essentiall reference unto sin . but if god damne no man but for sinne , and decreed to damne no man but for sinne , what if the meer pleasure of god be the cause of this decree ; what harshnes i say is this ? as for example , zimri or cosby perished in their incestuous act , and gave up both lust and ghost together , so going as it were quick to hell , never fearing the judgements of god , untill they felt them . if we say , god decreed they should be cut off in this sin of theirs , and be damned for it , what hatshnes i pray in this , though god made this decree of meer pleasure ? for is it not manifest he did ? for could he not if it had pleased him , have caused them to outlive this sin of theirs , and given them space for repentance , and not space only , but grace also for repentance , seeing as austin saith , quantamlibet praebuerit patientiam , nisi deus dederit , quis aget paenitentiam . now i pray , what is become of the harshnes of this our tenent as is pretended ? and the truth is , the harshnes lyeth not here , though our adversaries would faine draw it hither , but rather on the other part of reprobation , as it denotes gods purpose for the denying of grace , to wit , the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance : but on this part , they are not very forward to cry out upon our tenent , as savouring of harshnes , but themselves rather driven to such straites , as either to deny faith and repentaince to be the gift of god ( wherein the remonstrants now a daies , are come so far as cleerely to professe , that christ merited not faith and regeneration for any ; whence it followeth , that if god doth give faith and repentance unto any , yet it is not for christs sake that he gives it , ) or being demanded how it comes to passe , that god gives it not to all , if his meer pleasure be not the cause of this difference , as namely in shewing mercy unto some , when he hardens others , they are put upon this shift to say , that if they would believe , god would give them faith , if they would repent god would give them repentance ▪ and one that i have had to deale with , on this very argument , spares not to professe that god doth work in man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle , credere , & resipiscere , modè velit . one thing i had almost pretermitted , and that was , to represent the infatuate condition of this declaration , to wit , as touching the authors tenet in opposition to ours , as in saying , that gods decree to cast off men for ever , is grounded upon the foresight of their continuance in sin and unbeliefe ; for this continuance must be understood of finall continuance therein , least otherwise the contradiction to our tenent be not duely expressed . now the foresight hereof is made to precede gods casting men off for ever : but from what ? surely from grace and glory , in contradiction to our tenent as here it is shaped ; and consequently in election , the foresight of finall perseverance in faith and repentance , must be shaped to precede gods giving grace , to wit , in another world , as if the other world were appoynted for the giving of grace to some , and denying it another ; and that the giving of the grace of faith and repentance , and denying it unto others , was after the one hath persevered in faith and repentance , and the other in infidelity and impenitency unto the end in this world. for this is it we meane by grace , when we say , god in election destinates it to one , and in reprobation decrees to deny it unto the other ; and in contradicting us it is fit they should use our termes in our meaning , unles they expresse the contrary , and give a reason of it . . as for the persons on whom this decree passeth , and the aggravation there mentioned , namely of shutting up the greater part of men , even of those that are called , under sinne and damnation , this is confessed on all hands , that the greatest part of men are reprobated , even of those that are called ; and our saviour hath expresly given us to understand , that many are called but few are chosen . and it is without question , that if it be lawfull for god to deale thus with one , it is as lawfull to deale so with the greatest part , yea with all . and experience justifieth that the greatest part of them that are called doe not performe true faith and repentance : and if they did and dye therein , then the greatest part of them that are called , should be chosen . whereby it is manifest , that god doth not give faith and repentance unto the greatest part of them that are called ; and consequently , it is nothing strange , that he shuts up the greatest part of them that are called under damnation . so that in true account there is no weight at all of aggravation in this . like as you have read in newes from parnassus , that when the french and the spaniard weighed their powers in the ballance , and the french being found to weigh millions , and the spaniard but : he thinking to help the matter , and to make himselfe as weighty as the french , clapped into the scale the kingdome of naples and the dukedome of millan ; but beyond his expectation , the scale proved never a whit the more weighty then before , but lighter rather . . as for the last claw , to help the matter with a couple of epethetes of invincible sin and unavoidable damnation ; one of these might have sufficed to be expressed , seeing undoubtedly damnation is no otherwise avoidable by man , then by avoiding sin the cause thereof . for it is undenyable that man dying in sin , his damnation is unavoydable by the whole power of nature . but as for the avoydablenes of sin , the author of this discourse acknowledgeth it no otherwise then by grace ; and we willingly professe , that all sin is avoydable by grace . but by the way it is implied , that such a grace is afforded unto all reprobates , whereby they may avoyd that infidelity and impenitency for which they are damned . but this we deny . for if this were true then all reprobates were enabled to believe , to repent , to please god , to discerne the things of god , to be subject to the law of god ; but to say this , is directly to contradict the word of god , which professeth of some , that they could not believe ioh. . . of others that they cannot repent , rom. . . of all naturall men , that they cannot discern the things of god , as which seem foolishnesse unto them , cor. . . of them that are in the flesh , that they cannot please god , rom. . . of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the affection of the flesh , that 't is enmity against god , and it is not subject to the law of god , nor can be , rom. . . and of the israelites in the wildernesse for forty years together , god had not given them eyes to see , nor eares to heare , nor an heart to perceive , deutron . . . introduction . sect . ii. the first side is divided ; for . some of them present man to god , in the decree of reprobation , considered and looked upon out of , or above the fall , and make the will of god , without any consideration of sin in man originall or actuall , to be the cause of his eternall rejection , that so he might shew his absolute and unlimited power and dominion over him , in appointing to heaven or hell , whom he pleased : and this way goe calvin , beza , zanchius , piscator , gomarus . that way seems to charge god very deepely , and to make him the prime and principall cause of mens everlasting ruine , and the author also , not only of the first sin that entred into the world , but of all other sins likewise , that are successively committed therein , as meanes to bring men by a course and colour of justice , to those lamentable ends to which he had from eternity appointed them : and so by good consequence , it makes the pure and holy god , to be unholy , and ascribes unto him , farre greater cruelty , then can be found in the most bloudy and barbarous tyrant in the world. suetonius in the life of tiberius ( one of the veryest butchers of all the roman emperours ) reports of him , that having a mind to put the two sonnes of germanicus ( diusus and nero ) to death , variâ fraude induxit ut concitarentur ad convitia , & concitati perderentur ; he used cunning contrivances to draw them to reproach him , that so he might cover his cruelty in their death , under a pretext of justice . and a little after he saith of the same emperour , that ( because it was not lawfull among the romans to strangle virgins ) he caused certain little maides to be deflowred by the hangman , that so they might afterwards be strangled . this cruelty of tiberius , exceeded the bounds of humanity , and yet it comes as short of that , which this way laies to the charge of god , as a temporall death comes short of an eternall , and the power of man in drawing men to offend , comes short of that irresistable power , which the almighty is able to use , in the producing of sin . besides , it takes from men all conscience of sin , and makes sin to be no sin . we use to say , necessitas non habet legem , necessity hath no law . actions in themselves evill , if an absolute necessity bear sway in them , are transgressions of no law , and consequently are no sin ( for sin is a transgression of the law ) and men when they doe them , they have no reason to be forry for them . the tragoedian could see this , where he saith , fati ista culpa est , nemo fit fato nocens , when one evill action is done , the doer is not in fault , but the decree that necessitates him to doe it . it takes away likewise from good and evill actions , that defect which they naturally carry with them of rewards and punishments , as saint hierome tells us , liberi arbitrii nos condidit deus , nec ad virtutes nec ad vitia necessitate tranimur , alioqui ubi necessit as est nec damnatio nec corona est . where necessity domineers , there is no place for retribution ; and therefore none are drawn by the adamantine chains of necessity to virtues or vices , but left free to the choyce of their own wills . when zeno his servant was punished by him for a fault that he had done , he told his master out of his own grounds that he was unjustly beaten , because he was fato coactus peccare , constrained so to doe by his undeclinable destiny ; and certainly , if malefactors could not chuse but play their rude prankes , they could not be justly punished for them . for all just punishments suppose a possibility of avoyding those offences , of which they are the punishments . twisse . consideration . this authors pretence being only to oppose that tenent , which maintaines that the decree of denying grace and glory , and of inflicting damnation doth not presuppose the foresight of final perseverance in sin , you may well marvaile to what purpose this comes in about the different condition of man , considered by god either as before the fall , or after the fall in adam , it being a question of another nature and meerly logicall , to wit , about the ordering of gods decrees of creation , permission of the fall of adam , giving or denying grace , salvation or damnation . the resolution whereof , depends upon the right distinction of these decrees , in reference to the end , and to the means tending to that end . for this being resolved according to the rules of divinity , the order between them , must consequently be determined , according to the rules generally received in the schooles , namely thus , the intention of the end is first , then the intention of the means : so that if salvation be the end , and creation and permission of adams fall and raising therehence by faith and repentance to be the means , it must be confessed , that the decree of salvation must be first , then the decree of creation , permission of sin , and of raising out of sin . so if the damnation of any be the end that god intends , and creation and permission of sin , and of finall perseverance therein be the means ; it must be acknowledged , that the decree of damnation , was before the decree of creation , &c. but if salvation and damnation be no ends intended by god , but means rather , as well as creation , and permission of all to sin in adam , together with the raising of some therehence , and leaving some therein , tending to some farther end , namely , the manifestation of gods glory in a certain kind , as the scripture together with manifest reason doth justify . for god being the supreame efficient , must necessarily be the last end . and even there where the word of god doth testify , that god created the wicked against the day of evill , it doth therewithall give to understand , that what is signified by , to the day of evill , doth not denote the end of gods actions ( that before being expressed to be god himselfe , god made all things for himselfe , not for acquiring ought unto himselfe , for he is so perfect , that nothing can be added unto him ) but for the manifesting of his own most glorious nature : so that if god be pleased to manifest his glorious beneficence on man in the highest degree , and that in the way of mercy mixt with justice ; this end requires and bespeaks both creation ( no glory at all being manifestable without this ) and permission of sin ( otherwise it could not be manifested in the way of mercy ) and satisfaction for sin ( otherwise this mercy could not be mixed with justice exactly ) and faith and repentance ( otherwise the good which god intends could not be bestowed by way of reward ) and last of all salvation , under which we comprehend , the highest and most blessed condition that the nature of man , continuing a meere man , is capable of . and herehence we conclude , that in case the end is such as hath been specified , and all these actions following , congruous means tending to that end , therefore the decree of manifesting gods glory , as above specified , is first with god , and secondly the decree of the means ; which means although they are many materially , yet they come all under one formall notion of means tending to a certain end , which according to the severall parts thereof bespeaks them all ; and consequently they are all to be considered , as making up the object of one formall decree , called the decree of the means : and the intention of none of them is before another , but all intended at once , as means tending to that end which is first intended . in like manner if god shall be pleased to intend the manifestation of his glory in man or angell , in the way of justice vindicative , the means necessarily required hereunto are , creation , permission of sin , and damnation unto punishment , and all three makes up the object of one formall decree , which is to be called the decree of the means . so that like as god doth not intend the creatures creation , before he intends his damnation , in the same respect he cannot be said to intend his damnation , before he intends his creation , or the permission of his sinne . and this rightly considered , sets an end unto all quarrell about the different consideration of man in election and reprobation , which yet is about a schoole point only , touching the right stateing of the end and the means , and the right ordering of gods decrees concerning them . and doth it not set an end also , to all aspersions of cruelty cast upon the holy providence of god , from the guilt of which kind of blasphemies , nothing can free them ; but confidence in their own way , as if it were the way of truth , and that by convincing evidence of holy scripture ? whereas it appears how little direction they take from the word of god throughout , for the shaping of their tenent in this . yet neither is any such confidence , able to free them from the guilt of such blasphemies which they utter : well it may free them from the conscience of it , yet if it doe , that is more than i know . and only to these two ends doth this aliene discourse of our different opinions thereabouts tend , as i conceive ; namely , to shew the difference of our divines , and to give vent to those aspersions of blasphemy on the first way , as also to make way for a third in part , which comes to be considered in the next section , in the manner how they fall upon the relation of the second way . yet arminius in his conference with junius , might have informed him of three opinions concerning the object of predestination , dividing the fruit of these into two . the condition of man before the fall , being considerable two waies , either as before the fall , but after creation , which they call the masse created , but not yet corrupted ; or as not before the fall only , but before the creation also , which we commonly call the masse not yet created , or mankind not yet created . as touching the most harsh way of these three , upon examination of arminius his twenty arguments against it , i find nothing worth the speaking of , but meere suggestion of flesh and bloud , which yet being duely pondered , doe discover most shamefull nakednes . his arguments against the making of mankind not yet created , the object of predestination , i have proposed and answered in my vindiciae gratiae dei , lib. . de praedestin . digress . . if this author hath any mind to be doing with them , i shall be ready to consider what he saith , as god shall give opportunity . and in junius you shall finde , how he laboureth to reconcile them , but very obscurely . piscator also sets hand to the same work , and carryeth himselfe therein ( as his manner is ) very clearely , by distinguishing three acts in predestination . the first whereof he will have to presuppose mankind not created ; for it is the decree of creating man to different ends . the second , he will have to presuppose mankind created , but not corrupted : for it is the decree of permitting adam to fall , and all mankind in him . the third and last he will have to presuppose mankind both created and corrupted ; for it is the decree of raising some out of sin , wherein they are conceived and borne , and leaving some therein . as for the angells it is without question , that election and reprobation divine had course concerning them , as well as concerning mankind , and as certain it is , that no corrupt masse could be the object of divine predestination in their election and reprobation . as for arminius his ordering of gods decrees in opposition to these waies taken by our divines , that he hath communicated unto us , in the declaration of his opinion before the states , pag . where leaving out the decree of creating mankind in adam , and the decree of permitting all mankind to fall in adam , he takes into consideration only , the divine decrees of saving sinfull man. . the first whereof is , whereby he decreed to make his sonne christ a mediator , redeemer , saviour , priest and king , by his death to abolish sin , by his obedience to obtain salvation ( formerly lost ) and by his power to communicate it . and this decree he saith is absolute . . the second is , whereby he decreed to receive into grace such as believe and repent , and those persevering unto the end , to save in christ , for and by christ : but such as believe and repent not , to leave under sin and wrath , and to damne as aliene from christ. where observe , . this decree of saving such as believe and repent , he calleth a decree absolute , yet this decree passeth upon no particular persons : such a decree is reserved for the last place . . god ( with him ) receives none into grace and favour , unles they believe and repent : whereby it is manifest , that with him faith and repentance are no fruits of gods grace and favour : for they must be performed before they are received into gods grace and favour . . the third is , where by he decreed sufficiently and efficaciously to administer the means which are necessary to faith and repentance . this decree whether he conceives it to be absolute or no , he doth not specify ; nor whether he decreed to administer them unto all , nor by whom , whether by men only , or by men or angells , nor whether by means he understands the gospel only , and we have cause to doubt thereof . and lastly , which is most obscure , he doth not explicate what he means , by sufficient and efficacious administration . only he adds , that in this administration , he carries himselfe according , . to his wisdome , which shewes what becomes his mercy andseverity , and ly to his justice , whereby he is ready to follow the prescript of his wisdome . . the fourth and last is , whereby he decreed to save and damne certain particular persons . now whereas our divines generally , what way soever they took , had a care out of their logick and philosophy which they had by light of nature , to order the decrees divine , according to the common rules of art concerning intentions , as they are found to be either of some end , or of some means tending to an end , this seems to have been no part of arminius his care . this order of his , i have ransaked in my vindiciae . lib. . digress . . and if this author think good , he may answer thereunto , and doe his best to qualify the absurdities wherewith i charge that order of his . but as touching the embracers of this first way , whose names he expresseth , he had need to prove it . for divers think otherwise of calvin , and they represent their reasons for it , out of his own words such as these , de aeternâ dei praedestinatione . pag. . speaking of pighius . augustinum ridet ( saith he ) ejusque similes hoc est pios emnes , qui deum imaginantur postquam universalem generis humani ruinam in personâ adae praesciverit , alios ad vitam , alios ad interitum destinasse , & pag. . cùm de praedestinatione sermo habetur , inde exordiendum esse constantèr semper docui atquè hodiè doceo , jure in more relinqui omnes reprobos , qui in adam mortui sunt atquè damnati . as for beza , i know full well he maintained , that man not created is the object of predestination , but can this author represent unto us , any place out of beza , wherein he should affirme , that god doth decree to damne any man but for sin ; or that damnation is the end that god intends in the decree of predestination to death ? in his questions and answers he professeth the contrary . pag. . postremò non dixi exitium istorum ( he speaks of reprobates ) esse finem deo decernenti propositum , sed gloriam ipsius . nequè etiam simpliciter dixi istos esse exitio destinatos , sed justo exitio destinatos dixi . and in his book de aeternâ dei praedestinatione contrà sebastian . castell : ad argument . castell . . pag. . quamobrem etiam illud quoquè probavimus , nos ita loqui non solere , & quanquam à deo simpliciter conditum dicamus ad perditionem , sed idcircò ut ipsius justa condemnatione dominus justitiam suam patefaciat . as for zanchy ; peter baro , that caused such perturbation in cambridge about this very argument , he denyes this to have been the opinion of zanchy , in summa trium de praedestinatione sententiarum ; his words are these , altera sententia est augustini , posterior etiam sohnii heydelbergensis theologiae professoris , & aliorum quorundam protestantium , ut zanchii , atquè etiam bellarmini , qui omnes priorem illam improbant , in hoc inter se consentientes , ut sit praedestinatio ab adami tantum lapsu accipienda . and as touching piscator , he handles the question about the object of predestination in a small treatise , annexed to an answer of his to hemingius , de universali gratiâ ; and inquires whether the obiect thereof be humanum genus nondum conditum , or conditum , but nondum corruptum , or both conditum and corruptum ; and his resolution is , that in the decree of predestination , there is place for all these considerations , according to three severall acts comprised therein , which i have formerly mentioned , and so drawes into one all three opinious . as touching gomarus in the last place , i have seen little or nothing of his ; but when lubbertus in his book ad errores conradi vorstii pag. . had professed , massam consideratam esse a deo , non ut integram , sed ut corruptam ; and was charged by vostius as delivering that which was contrary to the doctrine of calvin , beza , and gomarus , he replies that herein he doth not contradict them , but saith he , illorum dict a quae quibusdam asperiuscula videntur , lenio , & in commodissimum sensum interpretor . but be it so , that all of them made humanum genus , not corruptum , no nor integrum , but nondum conditum the object of reprobation . i am of their mind that doe so ; and was not d r whitaker also , whom very wisely this author conceales ? this renowned professor in the university of cambridge , in a publique exercise , his concio ad clerum , professeth , what paul speaks de luto & sigulo non posse melius exponi quàm de massâ incorruptâ : and that bucer understands it thus , bucerus per massam intelligit primam humani ganeris originem ex quá homo conditus à deo & fabricatus est . and he disputes at large , that there is no cause of reprobation , and that neither sin actuall , nor sin originall is the cause thereof , and professeth this to be the opinion of the church of england . and though now a daies we be upbraided , as if we had learned it of papists and schoole divines , this great light of cambridge , spares not to make honourable mention of schoolemens sollid discourse on this point , saying , hanc sententiam scholastici si ullam egregiè solideque pertractarum praeserùm qui insigniores sanioresque habiti sunt . lombardus ait , ut praedestinationis nulla merita sunt , ità nec reprobationis . now the doctrine which he saith the schoolemen handle so solidly as none more , is the very doctrine which this author seems here to impugne , as when he saith , some make the will of god without any consideration of sin in men , originall , or actuall , to be the cause of their eternall rejection ; for d r whitaker expresseth it thus , his igitur isto modo explicatis , sequitur tertiam opinionem solummodò & necessario veram esse , aequè reprobationis ac praedestinationis causam esse dei voluntatem , quandoquidem providentiae divinae munus est omnia ad fines istos certa ratione certisque mediis ordinare . only as touching the end here mentioned , that so he might shew his absolute and unlimited power and dominion over them , in appointing to heaven or hell whom he pleaseth , that i find not in d r whitaker . he saith plainly that god predestinated unto death , whom he would , and because he would : deus igitur ad mortem praedestinavit quos voluit , & quia voluit : ( which phrase i willingly confesse i like not so well ) but that the end thereof is to manifest his absolute and unlimited dominion and power , he saith not ; and beza in the places before mentioned , referres it to the manifestation of gods justice , as the end thereof . and like as he saith , certissimum est damnationem nunquam nisi propter peccatum infligi ; so i should think it nothing lesse certain , that god doth not ordaine any man to be damned , but for sin , especially cosidering that damnation in the notion thereof , hath an essential reference to sin . now since i have found such a champion as d r whitaker for the maintenance of this tenent , have i cause to feare the sharp censures of any professors in the country ? were he alive , i presume he would be nothing skarred with the imputation of making god , the prime and principall cause of mens everlasting ruine ; he would i think require a little more learning in the criminator , then to expresse himselfe so crudely . for without all question , god is the prime and principall cause , nay the sole cause of mans everlasting ruine in genere causae efficient is , though this excludes not a meritorious cause of his own damnation on the creatures part , as d r whitaker professeth in the words formerly alleadging , acknowledged , damnationem infligi propter peccatum . and farther i am apt to conceive , and have undertaken to justify , and that to the view of the world , that albeit mankind not created , be the only object of predestination and reprobation , yet no mans reprobation is made by god , citra considerationem peccati , in as much as i hold that the decrees of creation , permission of sin , and of finall perseverance therein , and lastly of damnation for sin , are not decrees subordinate , but coordinate and simultaneous , as being decrees concerning means tending to the same end , which is the manifestation of gods glory , in the way of vindicative justice . and whereas it is farther urged , that hereby god is made the author of the first sin and of all sins ; as i find by d r whitakers discourse in his cygnaea concio , that were he alive he would answer hereunto , that this author takes his aime much amisse , considering , that the effect of reprobation is not sin , but the permission of sin , and gods means to the end intended by him , to witt , the manifestation of his glory in the way of vindicative justice , is not sin , but the permission of sin ; according to that of aquinas , alleadged by the foresaid doctor thus , sicut praedestinatio includit voluntatem conferendi gratiam & gloriam , ita reprobatio includit voluntatem permittendi cadere in culpam & inferendi damnationis poenam pro culpâ . and as i discern no unholinesse in gods permitting of sin , so neither doe i discerne any cruelty therein . but d r whitaker well perceived that this course of gods counsells , would seem injurious ; and therefore after he had proposed his last argument drawn from that of the apostle , rom. . ô altitudo ! thus , vltimò illa apostoli exclamatio , ô altitudo , hanc sententiam confirmat . neque enim tantae altitudinis est ut penetrari nequeat , deum odisse homines propter peccatum , etiam antequàm nati sunt ; immò rationi convenientissimum est ut deus ferre nequeat , quod est naturae suae contrarium . but marke wherein the depth the apostle speaks of , consists in his judgement ; ib i demùm infinitum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & abyssus est divinae discretionis , quando sine peccati ratione quidam reprobantur & alii qui nihilo erant amore digniores ad vitam & faelicitatem praedestinantur , ut omnis ratio discretionis ad solam dei voluntatem referatur . and because he knew full well that this mysterious depth of gods counsell , would seem very harsh to carnall affections , as savouring of cruell and injurious proceedings , therefore he takes expresse notice of it , and that in austins language , saying , iniquum videtur ( augustinus ait ) ut sine ullis bonorum malorumque operum meritis unum deus diligat , odiatque alterum ; whence he concludes according to austin thus , deus igitur hunc diligit , illumquè odit sine meritis ullis operum aut bonorum aut malorum . hoc videri possit alicui iniquum , sed est aequissimum , quia sic deo visum est . neque augustinus affirmare veritus est , eos apostoli verbum evacuare qui judicium divinae discretionis ad opera reducunt praevisa aut praeterita ; and so concludes the main point he insists on , thus , non est igitur peccatum originale causa aeternae reprobationis , nedum actuale . so that both austin and d r whitaker , and all our divines , knew full well in how harsh an accent this truth sounds in the eares of men ; yet because the word of god doth testify this truth unto us , it becomes all christian hearts to submit , and to acknowledge the equity of it , though we are not able to comprehend the reason of it : though i know full well , some are so violently carried with the zeale of their own way , that they spare not to professe , that they will sooner deny that there is a god , then yeeld to that which the contra-remonstrants teach ; which for ought i know , is no other then this which d r whitaker taught and preached publiquely in the university of cambridge , being at that time professor regius . and seeing we acknowledge the seeming harshnes of it , as well as our adversaries , yet because we find it revealed in gods word , we hold it our duty to embrace it , and therehence conclude that it is aequissimum . doth it become any one to take the course this author takes , and by a parallel between this course of god , and the courses of tiberius , as also by a saying of zeno's servant , to cry it down as iniquissimum , and thence to conclude hand over head , that the word of god doth not teach it ? is this a christian course ? is this theologicall ? is this scholasticall ? yet in my judgement the harshnes lyeth not here , to wit , in the point of gods purpose to inflict damnation ; considering that not one of our divines , that i know , doth maintaine that god did ever purpose to inflict damnation , but for sin . or if there be any harshnes therein , that is to be found in the kind and degree of punishment and everlastingnesse thereof , god holding them everlastingly as it were upon the rack and in quick sence of torment . and yet we maintaine without contradiction amongst christians , that it is just with god to doe so for one act of drunkennes or adultery , or the like unrepented of ; which kind of punishment , never any tyrant in the world was known to take , or could take . but the harshnes in my opinion , is most pregnant to bring forth distast on the other part of reprobation , which is the purpose of god to deny grace , this being denied to whom he will , and that of meer pleasure ; for like as he shewes mercy on whom he will , so the scripture testifies , that he hardens whom he will. and not only austin and d r whitaker and our divines generally doe take notice , how unsavoury this doctrine is in the judgement of flesh and bloud , especially in comparing it with gods ordinary course of complaining of men for their disobedience , even of those whom himselfe hath hardned , but the holy apostle also rom. . . thou wilt say then , and is it so , doth god harden whom he will ? why then doth he yet complaine ? for who hath resisted his will ? now in this case , how doth the apostle stop the mouthes of such , but thus ; o man , who art thou that disputest with god ? shall the thing formed , say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessell unto honour and another unto dishonour ? but let us come to the consideration of the parallel here made between the counsells of tiberius and the counsells of god. this consists of two parts , according to a double story of tiberius taken out of suetonius . the first is his dealing with drusus and nero , the two sonnes of germanicus , these varia fraude induxit ut concitarentur ad convitia & concitati perderentur , he used cunning contrivances to draw them to reproach him , that so he might cover his cruelty in their death , under a pretext of justice . what these cunning contrivances are , it is specified by suetonius ; but i hope this author will acknowledge , that it stands him upon , to represent what those cunning contrivances are , which our doctrine imputes unto god , to draw them to sinne against god. our divines commonly teach , that god as he is able to keep any man from sinne ( as he did the angells that stood , when their fellowes became apostates , the cause whereof austin resolves into amplius adjutorium given by god , either in their creation or after : de civit. dei. lib. . cap. . isti aut minorem acceperunt amoris divini gratiam quam illi qui in eadem perstiterunt , aut si utriquè boni aequaliter creati sunt , istis mala voluntate cadentibus , illi amplius adjuti ad eam beatitudinis plenitudinem , unde se nunquàm casuros certissimi fierent , pervenerunt , ) so likewise that gods permission is enough to prostitute any man unto sinne . and not our divines only , but arminius also and others . arminius exam. pag. . quoties voluntas permittitur a deo ut faciat aliquid , necesse est ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum , secùs permissio non fieret . and pag. . thus he defines the permission of sinne , permissio peccati est suspensio omnium impedimentorum quibus positis peccatum non fieret . now let any sober man judge , whether herehence it it followeth not necessarily necessitate consequenti● & suppositionis , that sinne shall be , to wit , upon the removing of all those impediments upon the position whereof sinne could not be ; considering that an impediment of sinne in this case and in arminius his phrase is every thing quo posito peccatum non fuerit . vorstius in like manner , in amicitia duplicatione pag. . fateor quidem permissione jam positâ in actu necessariò etiam poni rem aliquam permittendam , idque ob necessariam talium relatorum ad se invicem habitudinem , atque in arguendo mutuam quandam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae ferre non potest ut unum sine altero reipsâ sit , nedum ut alterum extra se quidquam verè agat , altero ne quidem adhuc existente , nedum verè patiente , aut contra . navarettus in . quest . . art. . § . . maintaines , posita permissione infallibilitèr sequi quod permittitur . austin himselfe supposeth as much where he saith , ad omnipotentissimam suam bonitatem pertinere , potiùs bona ex malis elicere , quam mala esse non sinere . for hereby he gives to understand , that god permits sinne with a purpose to work good out of evill . now this manifestly implies , that upon gods permission of sinne , sinne shall exist . nay how can this be avoided , unlesse we deny that god alone , is he that keepes us from running into sinne , and maintaine that man can doe this of himselfe , without that speciall grace of god , whereby he keepes us from sinne : yet in the councel of palestine , it was concluded , that gods grace was required to every act , and pelagius himselfe was driven to subscribe thereunto , and to anathematize those that denied . now let us examine what this grace of god is , which is necessarily required to every good act , whether god doth not work the will thereunto , according to that , i will cause them to walk in my statutes , and keep my judgements and doe them : ezech. . . or whether it be only such a cooperate grace , as some now a daies blush not to professe as whereby god workes in us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle bonum modò velimus , this i can shew under the hand of a zealous partizan for arminius . now i hope there is no such cunning contrivance in the permission of sinne . farther , there are certain occasions & opportunities offered for the cōmitting of sin in the course of the world : we willingly ascribe unto god the administratiō of these , and so doth arminius ; and that not of occasions only , but of arguments also inciting unto sin , disput . pub. thes . . de iustitiâ & efficaciâ providentiae dei in malo . num. . efficientia dei circa peccatum concernit tum actum ipsum tum vitiositatem ejus . efficientia quae circa initium consideratur vel impeditio vel permissio est ; cui addimus administrationem argumentorum & occasionum ad peccatum incitantium . yet there is a greater power of provocation unto sin then all these , & that is by the practises of satan , who goeth about like a roaring lyon seeking whō he may devoure . how coms he to have such liberty ? hath not god power to bind satan for a thousand years and more if it please him ? the devills sometime besought our saviour , that he would not send them into the deep ; surely they acknowledged thereby his power to send them thither ; yet he did not , though he was not ignorant , that their going about was like so many roaring lyons , to devoure the soules of men by provoking unto sin . as for those that tiberius set about drusus and nero to provoke them , what were they comparable to the devill and his angells for the practising of provoking courses ? but tiberius bid his servants to provoke drusus and nero and not to spare : but can any say truely that we maintaine that god bids the devill to provoke this author , or any such arminian spirit to make such parallels as these ? yet kings . we read when a wicked spirit offers his service to god to intice ahab that he might goe and fall at ramoth-gilead , & that by becoming a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets , the lord not only accepts it , saying , goe forth and doe so ; but also tells him , thou shalt entice him , and shalt also prevaile . that was a great deale more then was in the power of tiberius , or his instigators , or the devills themselves . and did not ahab deserve as much at the hands of god ? and why might not this author and his fellowes , have deserved so much at the hands of god , as to have a lying spirit put in the mouthes of them , on whom they depend for resolution in poynts of divinity , and that they prevaile with them also ? and why may not he also be thus given over to illusions to believe lies ? nay , what doe we talk of desert in this ? did not the devill provoke eve and adam to sin against god in paradise ? could not god have kept the devill off ? why did he not ? cur non intercessit & circumscriptorem colubrum cohibuit ? to speak in tertullians phrase . doth it not manifestly appeare , that it was gods will to have them tempted , to have them provoked unto sin ? & why not ? is it lawfull for a man to lay a bait of gold and silver in his servants way to try his fidelity , and whether such a provocation will make a breach upon his honesty ; and shall not such a course be lawfull unto god ? for this nothing hinders their liberty of transgressing . and to serve god while we are not tempted to sin against him , is a poor commendation : if thou faint in the day of adversity thy strength is small , saith solomon . iob. . . stretch out now thine hand and touch all that he hath , and see if he will not blaspheme thee to thy face ; as much as to say , let but iob be in this manner provoked , and see whether he will not blaspheame . what is the lords answere ? lo , all that he hath is in thine hand , only upon himselfe shalt thou not stretch out thine hand . hereupon satan goes to his work . one messenger comes and brings tydings , saying , the oxen were plowing , and the asses feeding in their places , and the sabeans came violently and took them , yea , they have slaine thy servants with the edge of the sword , and i only am escaped alone to tell thee : upon the neck of him comes another , saying , the fire of god is fallen from heaven , & hath burnt up thy sheep and thy servants , and devoured them , and i only am escaped alone to tell thee . upon the back of him comes a third saying , the caldeans set out three bands , and fell upon the camells and have taken them and slain thy servants with the edge of the sword , & i only am escaped alone to tell thee . after all these coms a fourth , saying , thy sonnes and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brothers house , and behold there came a great wind from beyond the wildernesse , and smote the fowre corners of the house which fell upon thy children & they are dead , and i only am escaped alone to tell thee . here are provocations enough , and can it be denied , but that god would have iob's uprightnesse thus to be tried ? and hath not god power thus to try any other nothing so upright as iob ( whatsoever be the consequents thereof ) unto transgression , though it be even to the cursing of their king and their god ? as is . . . he that is afflicted and famished , shall goe to and fro in it , and when he shall be hungry he shall even fret himselfe and curse his king and his gods and shall look upward : and revelations . . there fell a great haile like talents out of heaven upon the men , and men blaspheamed god because of the plague of the haile , for the plague thereof was exceeding great . yet job continued in his uprightnesse , his wicked wife perceived it , though shee her selfe was enraged , and betrayed the corruption of her heart within , but he was no more effectually brought thereby to sin against god , then joseph was by the temptation of his wanton mistris : though david fell fowlly and shamefully , provoked thereunto by the sight of bathsheba , and did not god by his providence bring him to the sight of bathsheba , as he brought shimei and david after this together , as arminius and his complices confesse , when shimei railed on him ? a great provocation to so great a person as david , if not to bid , yet at least to suffer abishai to cut off that doggs head , as he called him ; yet david would not suffer him , and why ? let david himselfe answer ; the lord , saith he , hath bidden him to curse david . it may be the lord will render unto me good , for his cursing this day . he fell not foule upon god , though acknowledging his just providence herein . and to make a parallele between the courses of god , and the courses of tiberius that monster of men , in taking a course with drusus and nero to provoke them to the reproaching of him , that he might destroy them : thus david was not corrupted with the provocations of his subject , as drusus and nero were by a fellow subject to convitiate their prince . neither did he fare the worse for this , but no doubt found cause to blesse god for his grace , in restraining him from breaking forth into any intemperancy of tongue or spirit , like as formerly he blessed god for the good counsel of abigal , whereby he was restrained from shedding bloud , and that his own hand did not save him . and if it be not lawfull for us to provoke another unto sin , will it follow forthwith , that it is not lawfull for god to provoke ? one is provoked by prosperity to corrupt his waies , another by adversity is provoked to break forth into impatience and blasphemy ? what then ? shall not god be acknowledged to be the author both of prosperity and adversity ? nay , what doth the lord long before professe what should be his providence towards the jewes ? and that in this very kind of provoking them . deutron . . . they have moved me to jealousy with that which is not good , they have provoked me to anger with their vanities : and i will move them to jealousy with those that are no people , i will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation . but let us consider more distinctly , what this act of provocation is , and wherein it consists , that we may be the better able to judge in what case we may safely attribute it unto god , and in what case not , that so we may neither ascribe that unto him which doth not become him , nor deny that unto him which doth become him , both these courses being equally blasphemous , and so reputed among schoole divines . now provocation in the most usuall phrase of scripture is by way of exasperation , and it is an incitation unto wrath ; and never otherwise taken when man is said to provoke god. and in the same sense it is delivered in the particular fact of tiberius here mentioned . but when a resemblance is here made between the particular course of tiberius and the courses of god , gods provocation of man is not to wrath only , but meant of incitation to any kind of sin , whether it be by way of exasperation , or by way of alluring and enticing , according to the severall passions and affections of man , which are apt to be moved severall waies to sin , amongst which the passion anger is but one . and as it is said of the wrath of man , that it workes not the righteousnesse of god ; so it is verified of every other inordinate affection . in the chron. . . it is said that satan provoked david to number israel . that was not by way of exasperation and moving in him the passion of anger , by the working upon some other passion , whether pride or curiosity : and therefore though it be rendred by the word , provoked , yet in the originall the word used signifieth properly to tempt . but consider we provocation according to the propriety thereof in the first place , by way of exasperation . now consider , i pray , whether the ministers of tiberius did more exasperate drusus and nero , then god exasperated ionah . ionah . . . for having prepared a gourd and made it to come up over ionah , that it might he a shaddow over his head , and deliver him from his griefe ; & ionah being exceeding glad of the gourd , god prepared a worme when the morning rose the next day and it smote the gourd that it withered . and god proceeded farther then this . for when the sun did arise , god prepared also a fervent east wind , and the sun heat upon the head of ionah , that he fainted and wished in his heart to dye , and said it is better for me to dye then to live . and not only so , but justified himselfe in this his impatience . for when the lord said unto him , doest thou well to be angry for the gourd ? ionah stoutly answered , i doe well to be angry to the death . it 's true , ionah brake not forth into blasphemies against god , as it seems drusus and nero did against tiberius . ionah was better brought up under the wings of god then so . gods grace preserved him from such excesse , but that the ministers tiberius set about them , did more provoke them by exasperating courses , then god did in like manner provoke ionah , it doth not appeare : but had ionah hereupon broken forth into blasphemies , had ionah's sinne been excusable or gods course blameable ? revel . . . we read of a great hayle that fell upon the men like talents out of heaven , and men blaspheamed god because of the plague of the hayle , for the plague thereof was exceeding great . and isai . . the lord prophecyeth , that , he that is afflicted and famished , shall goe to and fro , and when he shall be hungry , he shall even fret himselfe , and curse his king and his gods and look upward . such plagues are the work of god , for there is no evill in the citty but the lord hath done it . amos . but let them look unto it , that thereupon take occasion to blaspheme . and tentatio probationis was never yet that i know denyed unto god , to try whether they will blaspheme god or no. to this end satan desired to have an hand on job , yet not so much to try whether he would blaspheme or no , but being confident he should bring him to blaspheme . job . . . stretch out now thine hand and touch all that he hath , and he will curse thee to thy face . the lord gave him leave , and job acknowledgeth the lords hand in all that satan did , saying , the lord gave and the lord takes away , yet in all this job sinned not nor charged god foolishly . satan desires yet farther liberty , saying skin for skin , yea all that a man hath will he give for his life . but put forth thy hand now and touch his bone , and his flesh , and he will curse thee to thy face . and the lord said unto satan , behold he is in thy hand , but save his life . so went satan forth from the presence of the lord , and smote job with sore boyles from the sole of his foot unto his crowne , and he took him a potshard to scrape himselfe withall , and he sate down among the ashes , then said his wife unto him , doest thou yet continue in thy integrity ? curse god and dye . she manifested the inward corruption of her irreligious heart . job might have brought her to a forme of godlines by his pious courses in his family , but litle power of godlinesse doth appeare upon her . for as solomon saith , if thou faint in the day of adversity thy strength is small . it seems her heart was sowred with atheisme , thinking the world was governed by chance , rather then by divine providence , and consequently it was all one , whether a man did blesse god , or curse god , and a madnesse to make a conscience of walking in integrity , and that in iobs case at this time , whether he did blesse god he must dye , or whether he did curse god he could but dye , and better it was for him thus impoverished , thus afflicted , to dye then to live ; as for the powers of the world to come , it seems she never had but a tast of them , and that tast never produced any true faith in her concerning them . here was a sore temptation , the very gates of hell playing upon him with their greatest ordinance to batter ( if it were possible ) his shield of faith . but what is iobs answer . thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh . what shall we receive good at the hand of god and shall we not receive evill ? in all this did not iob sin with his lips . the worke of satan in the impoverishing of iobs estate , and afflicting his person , cannot be denied to be gods work . as for the work of his wife , why might not that be the work of god , as well as the work of satan ? for did not satan sin in all this ? as our saviour saith that he was a murtherer from the beginning , and as s t peter saith , the devill goes about like a roring lyon seeking whom he may devoure ; so who can make doubt but these courses practised against iob , were fruits of his murthering and devouring disposition ? and all sides now a daies confesse , that the act of the most flagitious sin committed by man or angell , is the work of god in the way of a principall efficient cause , as well as it is the work of the creature . and as for the sinfulnesse of the act , either of the devill or his wife , that was not it which did or could hurt iob : but the works wrought by satan , the temptation atheisticall proposed by his wife , this was the greatest danger in the consideration thereof to corrupt his soule , for that is it alone that workes upon the will to incline it . and as for their sinning herein , that proceeded from the want of gods feare , according to that of abraham . genes . . . i said surely the feare of god is not in this place , therefore they will slay me for my wives sake . and albeit god engageth himselfe towards some , for the putting of his feare in their hearts , that they shall never depart away from him . ierim . . . yet he hath not engaged himselfe thus farre towards all . for the apostle plainly professeth , that , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth rom. . . and hardning we know is denying the feare of god , either as touching the habituall infusion thereof , or as touching the actuall excitation thereof after it is infused . yet i deny not but obduration and excaecation are sometimes promiscuously used , the one for the other , because of the strict conjunction that is betwixt them . and as touching the particular act of convitiation , austin spares not to professe , that even when it is committed by man , it is brought forth by god out of his secret providence lib. . confess . cap. . quid egisti deus meus ? unde curasti ? unde sanasti ? nonne protulisti durum & acutum ex alterâ animâ convitium tanquam medicinale ferrum ex occultis provisionibus tuis & uno ictu putredinem illam praecidisti ? and whereas bellarmine endeavoureth to blast the evidence of this place giving testimony unto gods secret providence in evill , i have endeavoured to shew the vanity of his discourse in my vind. grat. dei lib. . crim. . digress . . cap. . and in what congruity can it be said , that god bid shimei to curse david , but that in the same analogy of faith , it may be said , that god bid iobes wife in this manner to tempt him ? and which of the two was the greatest provocation , tiberius his ministers provocation of drusus and nero ; or shimei's provocation of david rayling on him to his face , the subject blaspheaming his prince ? undoubtedly the provocation was nothing inferior , only here was the difference ; tiberius gave such commandment to his ministers so to provoke drusus and nero , god gave no such commandement ( in proper speech ) unto shimei , but rather commanded the contrary in his law , thou shalt not speak evill of the ruler of thy people . but gods secret providence , whereby he makes use of all his creatures in what condition soever he finds them , even of devills and wicked men , to serve his turne by them , either in the way of judgement , or in the way of mercy , and sometimes for triall of the faith and patience of his children , is in scripture phrase called gods bidding or commanding . and indeed it is farre more effectuall then his commandment . and austin by pregnant passages of holy scripture convicted of this truth , spareth not to professe as much in these words , his & talibus testimoniis divinorum eloquiorum quae omnia commemorare nimis longum est , satis quantum existimo manifestatur operari deum in cordibus hominum ad inclinandas eorum voluntates quocunquè voluerit sive ad bona pro suâ misericordiâ , sive ad mala pro meritis eorum , judicio utique suo , aliquando aperto , aliquando occulto , semper autem justo . de grat. & lib. arbitr . cap. . and touching this particular case of shimei , inquiring about the interpretation of it , see i pray , how he resolves concerning it . quomodo dixerit dominus huic homini maledicere david , quis sapiens & intelliget . non enim jubendo dixit , ubi obedientia laudaretur , sed quod ejus voluntatem proprio vitio suo malam in hoc peccatum judicio suo justo & occulto inclinavit . ideò dictum est , dixit ei dominus . nam si jubenti obtemper asset deo , laudandus potius quam puniendus esset , sicut ex hoc peccato posteà novimus esse punitum . and he proceeds farther to shew the reason of this divine providence . nec causa tacita est , cur ei deus justo modo dixerit maledicere david , hoc est , cor ejus malum in hoc peccatum miserit vel dimiserit ut videat ( inquit ) dominus humilitatem meam & retribuat mihi bona pro maledictio ejus in die isto . and hereupon concludes . ecce quomodo probatur deum uti cordibus etiam malorum ad laudem atque adjumentum bonorum . sic usus est iuda tradente christum . sic usus est iudaeis crucifigentibus christum , & quanta inde bona praestitit populis credituris ? qui & ipso utitur diabolo pessimo , sed optimè ad excercendam & probandam fidem & pietatem bonorum non sibi , quia omnia scit antequam fiant , sed nobis quibus erat necessarium , ut eo modo ageretur nobiscum . but let us proceed to provocations unto other sins , not in the way of exasperation , but in the way of allurements . achan was a covetous person , at the sacking of jericho , it was his hap to light among the spoyle , upon a goodly babylonish garment , and two hundred shekells of silver , and a wedge of gold of fifty shekells waight . was not so faire a prey , a sore temptation to a covetous person ? how was demosthenes taken with a rich bowle that was shewed him by harpalus , but there was great danger in it , i confesse , yet if desire of prey doth sometimes overrun the sent , may it not as well overcome the feare of danger , especially considering the opportunity of secrecy to convey it closely into his tent and hide it there ? i saw , saith he , and i coveted them and took them , and behold they lye hid in the earth in the midst of my tent , and the silver under it . now can it be denied , but that god by his providence brought him into this temptation , and consequently into this provocation , for to tempt is to provoke chron. . . and is it not just with god , to bring any man into such temptations of what kind , or in what degree soever ( seeing no temptation or provocation in this kind or degree , bereaves a man of the liberty of his will ) if not , what meant our saviour to teach his disciples , and in them us , to pray unto god that he will not lead us into temptation ? and what cause hath achan to complaine of this temptation ? we do not read he did ; was it not the condition of many others as well as himselfe ? was this prey that he ceazed on , the only spoyle of that great citty ? were there no babylonish garments but that one , no more silver or wedges of gold , but that achan lighted on ? yet they refrained , some out of the feare of god , that restrained them in a gracious manner , and kept them from sinning against him : others though not out out of a feare of god , yet out of the feare of punishment , were moved to beware how they transgressed . for albeit , libertas sine gratia non est libertas , sed contumacia , as * austin writes , yet feare of punishment oftimes restraines from committing capitall crimes , though this restraint be not gracious ; and considerations of lesse force then these doe prevaile many times with carnall men , both to abstain from evill , and to doe that which is good , though not in a gracious manner . as we read in the gospell of a wicked judge , that neither feared god nor reverenced man , yet he would doe the widdow justice to ease himselfe of her importunate sollicitations where with she molested him . come we to provocations unto sinne of another nature , in satisfying the concupiscence of the flesh . david arising out of his bed at eventide , and walking upon the roof of the kings pallace , from the roofe he saw a woman washing her selfe : and the woman was very beautifull to look upon : we know what followed hereupon . now was it not god that lead him into this temptation , into this provocation ? surely if this were not just with god , it were in vaine for us to pray , that god will not lead us into temptation ; for we need not feare any such temptation , which cannot befall us without violation of gods justice in the course of his providence . paul the apostle , least he should be exalted out of measure , through the abundance of revelations ( made unto him , which were very dangerous to puff a man up , and make him swell in the conceit of his own worthinesse being admitted into the secrets of god ) was sometimes exercised with a thorne in the flesh , the messenger of satan sent to buffet him . but the feare of god was alive in him , and stirred up his faith to pray unto god three times that it might depart from him : and the lord made him a gracious answer , not as yet to deliver him , but to support him in this conflict , and give him the victory over it . for the lord said unto him , my grace is sufficient for thee , for my power is made perfect in thy weaknesse . this answer put heart into paul ; therefore , saith he , will i very gladly rejoyce rather in mine infirmities that the power of christ may dwell in me . mark i pray , rahter , in mine infirmities . he would not blame god for thus exercising him , but rather rejoyce to be thus exercised , for as much as this same should doe him no harme ; for by vertue of christs power dwelling in him he should have the victory . secondly , it should doe him good in preserving him from being exalted out of measure through the abundance of revelations . therefore , saith he , i take pleasure in infirmities , in reproaches , in necessities , in persecutions , in anguishes for christs sake ; for when i am weak then am i strong . and had not joseph as good cause to conceive that it was the will of god , that he by the unchast motions of his wanton mistris , should be provoked unto unclean courses , as david had to perswade himselfe , that it was gods will by the rayling of shimei he should be provoked unto revenge ; that so by the power of his grace , strengthning them against such provocations , they might come forth of their severall temptations , as gold out of fire , more bright more resplendent then before ? ioseph was a faire person and well favoured genes . . . now this was a sore provocation to a lustfull eye . beauty is said to be of a dangerous nature , as that which makes a man either praedonem alienae castitatis or praedam suae . but joseph had a gracious and a chast heart , his beauty gave him no encouragement to prey upon others chastity , but being a congruous baite to the lustfull appetite of his mistris , it was in danger to expose his own chastity to be preyed upon . and as austin said of gods providence concerning shimei , ejus voluntatem proprio vitio suo malam in hoc peccatum judicio suo justo & occulto inclinavit . who seeth not , that the like may be said of gods dealing with ioseph's mistris ? and that without all aspersion of unholinesse unto god. for if he gives men or women over unto their lusts , what will be the issue but uncleannesse : rom. . , . when god gave them up to vile affections , what followed but this ? even their women did change their naturall use into that which was against nature , vers . . and likewise also the men left their naturall use of the women , and burned in their lust one toward another ; and man with man wrought filthinesse , and received in themselves such recompence of their errour as was meet . here we have a strange course of gods providence in punishing sin with sin . for these gentiles in defiling themselves one with another , in a most unnaturall and abominable manner , are said to receive such recompence for their errour as was meet . in few words , what is meant by provocation unto any sin ? is it to doe that whereupon man may take just cause or occasion to doe that which he doth without blame ? like as the corinthians provoked paul , as a foole to loast himselfe , as himselfe expresseth it , for he adds , ye have compelled me . but this cannot be affirmed of tiberius his ministers in provoking drusus and nero. for no provocation could be sufficient to make them unblameable in convitiating their prince , much lesse can it be said , that god provokes any man in this manner : neither doe i think that any of our adversaries ( as malevolent as they are ) dares impute any such crimination unto us , as if wee attributed any such discourse unto providence divine . what then is it to provoke unto sin ? is it to doe somewhat upon the consideration whereof , mens passions being moved , they cannot but sin . but this in like sort is equally as untrue , as the former , even of those provocations which were made upon drusus and nero by the practises of tiberius . or is it the doing of somewhat , whereupon occasion is taken to sinne , to blaspheme ? this hath no colour of truth in it . for even man without all transgression may doe many things , whereupon occasion is taken of doing evill , and therefore we distinguish of scandalum datum & acceptum . nay , though man knowes offence will be taken upon the doing of some things , yet if the doing thereof be commanded by god , he must doe them , what occasion soever is thereby taken to offend . indeed if they are things indifferent , i must abstaine from the doing of them , in case i know offence will be taken thereat , and that thereby i shall lay a stumbling block in the way of my brother . for paul professeth that if meat would offend his brother , he would never eat meat rather then offend his brother . but no such obligation lies upon god. for he knoweth full well how some will abuse his mercies , others grow worse and worse by his judgements , breaking forth into blasphemy thereupon : yet no wise man will say that god is the more unholy in the shewing of mercy , and in the execution of judgement . he professeth in plain termes , that to them who feare him he will be a sanctuary , but as a stumbling block , and as a rock to fall upon to both the houses of israel , and as a snare , and as a net , to both the inhabitants of ierusalem , isai . . . as for the last clause of this odious parallel , concerning the end of tiberius his course in this , namely that so he might cover his cruelty in their death under pretext of justice . undoubtedly i should think the putting of them to death was just in case they did convitiate their prince whatsoever their provocations were . for hereby they deserved death , yea everlasting death and damnation . his sin was in causing them to be provoked hereunto , and so also it might be in the manner of their execution . for it is written of him that fame necavit , he famished them . i know tiberius was cruell enough , but by the story it seems , that policy , wicked policy moved him unto this ; first to intend their deaths because he saw the affections of the people towards them , belike for germanicus his sake , a worthy man according to those times . for when he found that in the beginning of the yeare , vowes were made on their behalfe , to wit , for their preservation he dealt with the senate , that such rewards ought not to be tendred , but towards such who were of experience and of ripenesse of age : and that hereupon the inward character of his affection towards them being discovered , he laid them open to every mans criminations , variaque fraude inductos ut & concitarentur ad convitia & concitati perderentur , accusavit per literas , amarissimè congestis etiam probris , & judicatos hostes fame necavit . and anon after , the same author discovers the reason of all this , to wit , that seeing germanicus was but his adopted sonne , and one drusus by name was his naturall sonne , and his own sonne drusus being dead , leaving a sonne tiberius behind him , he desired to make him as his naturall sonne his successor in the empire . aelium sejanum ad summam potentiam non tàm benevolentia provexer at quàm ut esset cujus ministerio ac fraudibus liberos germanici circumveniret : nepotemque suum ex druso filium naturalem ad successionem imperii confirmaret . sure we are god hath no need of any such politique courses ; neither hath he need of any pretext of justice to take a mans life from him . it is confessed now of all hands , that god can annihilate the holiest angel by power absolute . and if it be in the power of god to keep any man from sin , as i think no wise man will deny , surely it is in his power to refuse to keep any reasonable creature from sin . for certainly though adam were created in innocence , yet he preserv'd him not in innocency , but left him to himselfe , having exposed him to satans temptations . the angells had no satan to tempt them ; god preserved the elect angells from sinning , and how ? let austin speak in this particular ; either by giving them majorem amoris divini mensuram in their creation then their fellowes ; or by giving them amplius adjutorium after their creation . and in particular concerning adam , the same author professeth that god gave him , posse si voluit , but he gave him not , velle quod potuit . and dares any man deny that it is in the power of god by the deniall of his efficacious grace , to make way for the entring of sin into the world , and that wonderfull work of the incarnation of the sonne of god , and the redemption of the world by him ; as also for the manifestation of his own glory , both in the way mercy by the pardoning of sin , and in the way of justice by the punishing of sin . let arminius be heard in this , who confesseth that god in the storehouse of his wisdome and power , hath not only sufficient impediments of sin , but efficacious also , by the use whereof , sinne would certainly and infallibly be hindered . his words are these , praeter illa sufficientia , impedimenta etiam efficacia habet in suo sapientiae & potentiae thesauro , quibus productis certô & infallibiliter peccatum impediretur . which if it be true , certainly it was as true , as touching the hindering of the sinne of adam , as of hindering any mans sinne else from the time of adams fall . and as certain it is that god would not make use of any of these impediments , though it is apparent these impediments arminius speakes of , are of such a nature as whereby sinne would be hindered without any prejudice to the freedome of mans will , as appears by all his instances following of this kind , shewing how god did efficaciously hinder the sinnes of many . and indeed it is evident in reason and such as cannot be denied , unlesse a man will say , that whatsoever course had been taken by god to preserve him from sinne , without prejudice to the freedome of his will , yet neverthelesse he would have sinned : which is in so high a degree absurd , as manifestly to contradict the very light of nature . for seeing adam in the state of innocency was naturally indifferent , as well to stand , as to fall ; and morally more inclined to stand then to fall ; ( for as much as god had made him good ) even in respect of this indifferency it cannot be said , that upon every occasion or temptation unto sin , he would have yeelded thereunto . for such a condition is not an indifferent condition . nay philosophers ackowledge that of three sorts of contingents , one sort is of such which they call , contingentia aequalitèr , that is , such as fall out as often one way as another . and what are these ? surely all such and none but such as are subject to a mans free will. and even of esau borne in sin ( so was not adam ) austin thinks it strange , that any man should deny , but that there was a course to have called him as effectually , as he called jacob , had he been pleased to have used it . now hereby it manifestly appears , that god hath no need of any provoking courses , exasperating courses to draw them unto sinne , let him but withold those efficacious impediments of sin , which are in the store-house of his wisdome and power , as arminius acknowledgeth , and sinne hereupon shall enter . for the permission of sinne ( by arminius his distinction of it ) is the suspension of that efficiency whereupon it would be avoided . and if it were a safe course to judge of what becometh god by that which becometh man , we should conclude even of permission of sin , that like as it becometh not us to permit sinne if it lieth in our power to hinder it , in the same manner it becometh not god to permit any sinne , seeing it lyeth in his power to hinder it . sed judicia ejus ( saith austin ) multa abyssus . nos certè , si eos in quos nobis potestas est ante oculos nostros perpetrare scelera permittamus , rei cum ipsis erimus : quàm verò innumerabilia ille permittit fieri ante oculos suos , quae utique si voluisset nulla ratione permitteret . in the kings . , . we read of a desperate course of the king of moab , that finding the battail to be sore against him , first tryed with men to break through to the king of edom , but when he could not , he took his eldest sonne that should have raigned in his steed , and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall ; the sight of which barbarous part of his strook griefe into the hearts of the children of israel , so that they departed from him , and returned into their country . what , therefore shall we condemne god , for sending abraham to sacrifice his sonne , his only sonne , his sonne isaac ? in the iudg. we read a strange story of sampson whose faith is commended hebr. . for there we read how he dyes , his heart flaming with desire of revenge , and yet with great devotion prayes unto god to assist him , that he might be avenged of the philistins for his two eyes . o lord god i pray thee think upon mee , o god i beseech thee strengthen me at this time only , that i may be at once avenged of the philistins for my two eyes . and again , let me loose my life with the philistins : & he bowed himselfe with all his might , and the house fell upon the princes , and upon the people that were therein ; so that the men that he slew at his death , were more then they which he had slaine in his life . for both the house it selfe was full , and upon the roofe of it there were about men and women . here is a strange massacre wrought by sampson an israelite upon the philistins , at that time when the israelites were in subjection to the philistins who were their lords , as sometimes pharaoh was . for the men of judah admonished him when they came up to the rock etam to bind sampson . knowest thou not ( say they ) that the philistins are rulers over us ? wherefore then hast thou done thus unto us ? to wit , in taking such courses as might well provoke the philistins to root out the israelites . yet neverthelesse he comes sparkling with zeale to destroy many thousands of them , yea the princes with the rest , and well pleas'd to destroy himselfe with them , to be avenged of them for his two eyes . and how could this be done by him without some speciall & propheticall instigation & animation received from the spirit of god , we know not . and who doubts , but that god animating him hereunto , all this was lawfull ? which without gods warrant , could be no lesse then abominable & most damnable sins . yet undoubtedly god did not animate herod , & pontius pilate , together with the gentiles , and people of israel to do what they did against our saviour , but rather left them to be ordered by his law , wherein such things are prohibited . and neverthelesse the apostles in their pious meditation with one voyce professe , that , all these were gathered together against the holy son of god , to doe those things which gods hand , and gods councell had predestinated to be done : and why the like is not to be acknowledged of the most barbarous facts committed by tiberius , or any other monster of nature , i know no reason . and as touching shamefull courses , no lesse abominable in the kind of acts flagitious , as these here mentioned of tiberius were , in the kind of acts facinorous ; the apostle professeth both that god gave them up to vile affections , and to the lusts of their own hearts , to the committing of such abominations , and also that herein they received such recompence of their errour as was meet ; and the errour which god avenged in this manner what was it , but such wherein tiberius was as deep , as those whom the apostle speaks of , namely , in changing the glory of the incorruptible god , to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man , and of birds , and of four footed beasts , and of creeping things . and they were but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into which god delivered up tiberius , and to such god delivered up them of whom the apostle speaks ; and his actions as well as theirs , were equally the fruits of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , into which god gave them up , that so they might receive that recompence of their errour as was meet . i come to the second instance here made of tiberius his cruelty , which he compares to those courses , which we out of holy scripture have learned , to be attributed unto god himselfe . now this hath long agoe been objected by bertius , in his preface to the conference of arminius with iunius ; i say objected by him unto piscator , & thereunto piscator also hath answered long agoe . and whereas bertius hath replyed and allowed piscator a year for putting in his answer thereunto , whereof had he failed , he would interpret it as a confession of his insufficiency , to make good the cause maintained by him . piscator answers , that he had no need of so long a time as he prescribed him , for after he had read over his book , in the space of two or three daies he addressed himselfe to an answer thereunto , and within a month finished it . now if the author of this discourse were ignorant hereof , his ignorance might excuse him , if otherwise he might have , with more credit , occupied himselfe in the answering , at the least , of some chief particulars , whereupon piscator stands , for the justifying of his doctrine delivered by him , not of his own brain , but according to the word of god , then hand over head , to hold up the crimination without taking notice of the dilution thereof , many years a goe proposed and set forth to the judgement of the world . but i am content to take into consideration , how scholastically and judiciously he carrieth himselfe in this crimination , as well as in the former : and the rather , because it may be that this odious cōparison he makes more account of ( for the preparation of his auditors to entertain that which followes with the more propitious affectiō ) then he doth of the strength of ought that follows , whatsoever he doth or may pretēd to the cōtrary to the point thē . tiberius commanded the virgins to be defloured , that they might be strangled . now is there any carriage of god taught by us like unto this ? if god were disposed to strangle any , certainly he hath no need to have thē defloured first . for it is now a daies confessed even by arminius himselfe , that god can lawfully annihilate the holiest creature that lives , and that without all respect to sin , or the vitiation of them . and annihilation i think is much more then strangulation ; this causing only a dissolution between the body and soule , but annihilation , setting an utter end to body & soule by turning them both into nothing . and farther , had tiberius only permitted the deflouring of them , whē he might have hindered it , though this were a foule part in him , yet i hope no christian will say , it is a foule part in god , to permit any act never so flagitious , or facinorous when he is able to hinder it ; especially when he may hinder it without any prejudice to the liberty of mans will : and that this is in gods power arminius acknowledgeth and supposeth at large in his examen and treatise there de permissione . but tiberius commanded the hangman to defloure them . but is this our doctrine , that god commanded the ravishing of any , the murthering of any , or any other sin whatsoever ? do we not all teach rather , that god forbids it , and that under penalty of everlasting death ? yet it is true , the word of god expressely professeth out of the mouth of david , that god bad shimei to curse david , and that he bid the evill spirit to seduce ahab , that he might goe up to ramoth-gilead , and that not to be strangled i confesse , but , which was nothing better to him , that he might fall , and be slain there . but this is a figurative speech , and signifies not properly any command of god , but rather denotes the secret operation of gods providence in the hearts of men , even of wicked men ; for those as well as devills , god knows how to make use of , to serve his own turne . and austin professeth , deum operari in cordibus hominum ad inclinandas eorum voluntates quocunque voluerit , sive ad bona , pro suâ misericordiâ , sive ad mala pro meritis eorum judicio utique suo , aliquando aperto , aliquando occulto , semper autem justo : and , touching the particular of shimei , writes thus , ejus voluntatem proprio suo vitio malam , in hoc peccatum judicio suo justo , & occulto inclinavit . as for tiberius his causing the little maides to be defloured , that might be done without their sinne , they might be ravished , and in that case , that might be their sorrow but not their sin . and as for the hangmans fault , in this , he was not excusable by tiberius his causing him to defloure them ; for tiberius his causation herein extended no farther then to command them . and i hope it was no just excuse for the people of israel in their idolatrous courses , that therein they did but keep the statutes of omri , and all the manner of the house of ahab , mic. . yet neither doth god command any man to doe that which his law forbids , or to sin against him . and farther we acknowledge with austin , that sin hath no efficient cause , but deficient . and it is enough with god to expose any man to sin , by not working him to that which is good ; it being his office to work us to every thing that is pleasing in his sight . heb. . . to cause us to walk in his statutes , and judgements , and to doe them , ezech. . . yea , to keep us from presumptious sins , and that they get not the dominion over us . psal . . . yea , to deliver us from every evill work , timoth. . . but perhaps some may say ; our doctrine is that god willeth sin to be committed for which men may and shall be punished ; like as tiberius would the virgins should be defloured , that they might be strangled . and i answer , that arminius himselfe professeth that , deus voluit achabum mensuram scelerum suorum implere , god would have ahab fill up the measure of his sinne , that he might be condignely punished . and why may we not say as well , that god would have tiberius to fill up the measure of his sinnes ? and yet like as tiberius would have the virgins to be defloured that they might be strangled ; so ahab would have naboth accused of blasphemy , that he might be condemned for it , and so put to death and stoned ; and all these things were done under colour of religion . yet arminius in reference to these very courses , spares not to professe , that god would have ahab to fill up the measure of his sinnes , yet doth not bertius upbraid him for defaming god , with imputing cruelty unto him . againe , the same arminius professeth that in their ignominious handling of christ , god would have the jewes , progredi quousque progressi sunt , proceed so farre as they did proceed . and was it not gods will in like manner , that the gentiles should proceed as farre as they did in the same businesse ? now we know full well by the story evangelical , how farre they went in their mischievous courses against the son of god. for judas betrayed him , and the high priests both hired judas hereunto , and suborned false witnesses against him ; and both the herodians and souldiers mocked him , and the people urged pilate to crucify him , and to dismisse 〈◊〉 , and pilate yeelded to the peoples desire , took order to have him first scourged , then crucified . and if it may be truely and piously said , that in these ignominious usages of the son of god , they went as farre as god would have them to goe ; why may it not , with as great truth and piety be avouched , that tiberius also in these his barbarous courses , went as farre as god would have him ? neither doth arminius give himselfe to qualify the harshnesse of these his affirmations . we say that whatsoever comes to passe , it is gods will it should come to passe , as austin expresly professeth , enchir. cap. . nec aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , and the articles of ireland , artic. . professe the same . but withall we explicate it as austin dothin the words following , by adding the different manner , how they shall come to passe by the will of god , according to the different condition of things that come to passe , namely good or evill ; thus , vult fieri , but how ? vel sinendo ut fiat ( to wit in case they are evill ) vel ipse faciendo ( to wit , in case they are good . so then good things god will have come to passe by his effection , evill things only by his permission . and bellarmine opposing our divines to the uttermost of his power in this particular , being convicted in conscience by the evidence of truth is driven to confesse ; bonum esse ut malum fiat deo permittente , it is good that evill should come to passe by gods permission , or gods permitting it . tiberius willed that the virgins should be defloured and impiously he willed it . god willed that davids concubines should be defloured , and holily he willed it ; neither is he delighted with impurity . for the scripture attributes this unto god , i will give thy wives unto thy neighbour , and he shall lye with them in the sight of all israel and before the sunne . and this constupration of davids concubines served for the chastising of david , as arminius professeth , inserviit castigando davidi ; & omnes paenae habent deum authorem , all punishments have god for their author ; they are the words of the same arminius . it was impiety and cruelty in tiberius to cause the virgins to be defloured and strangled but what christian dares to impute impiety or cruelty unto god for causing the children of the sodomites , some in their mothers wombe , some hanging upon their mothers breasts , to be consumed with fire and brimstone . it was impiety and cruelty in tiberius , to will the deflouring of those virgins , that they might be strangled . but arminius thought it neither impiety nor cruelty for god to will , that ahab should fill up the measure of his sinne , that so he might accumulate unto himselfe wrath in the day of wrath ; for if he had i presume , he would not have ascribed any such will unto god , as he doth in expresse termes . although he well knew the vast difference between the power of man , and the power of god in executing vengeance ; the ones power extending only to the execution of vengeance temporall , but gods power extends to the execution of vengeance eternall . now i find a story immediatly following this very story alleadged by this author out of suetonius expressing the cruelty of tiberius in a farther degree , as not contented with the death of them whom he would destroy , and therefore he would keep them alive to torment them : mori volentibus vis adhibita vivendi , when they desired to dye , he caused them to live by force ; nam mortem adeò leve supplicium putabat ut cum audisset unum è reis anticipasse eam , exclamaverit carnutius me evasit , for he accounted death so light a punishment that when he heard one of the condemned persons to have anticipated it , he cryed out carnutius hath escaped me ; for that was the condemned persons name . and when he took notice of them that were inward , when one desired to suffer betimes , he answered him , nondum tecum in gratiam redii . i doe not as yet beare these so much good will. now , why may not some atheisticall person track the steps of this author , and in this particular exaggerate the hainousnesse of gods holy courses as savouring of cruelty beyond all example , beyond the cruelty of tiberius , because he holds delinquent creatures upon the rack of eternall torment in hell fire ? for certain vindicative courses in tiberius inferior unto these are accounted abominable , cruell , and impious ; how much more ( if this authors argumentation be of force ) those courses which the word of god hath informed us to be the courses divine , infinitely beyond the courses of tiberius in the way of severity and rigour ? as for the power of god in producing sinne , we acknowledge none . above years agoe it was delivered by austin , that sinne hath no efficient cause , but deficient only . but when the creature sinneth , he sinneth in doing that he ought not to doe ; or in doing what he doth , not in that manner he ought to doe ; or in not doing what he ought to doe , or not in what manner he ought to doe it ; not one of all which is incident unto god. all efficiency both divine and humane is found only about the act substrate unto sinne ; and all sides now a daies acknowledge , that god is the author thereof as well as man by an effective concourse , though difference there is about the manner of the concourse : and particularly these ; arminius will have gods concourse to an evill act , to be every way as much as his concourse to a good , and that he concurres to the working of a good act , no more then to the working of an evill act . which we utterly deny , requiring a double concourse to every good act that is not supernaturall , as touching the substance of the act ; one to the producing of the substance of the act , another to the producing the goodnesse thereof , that is , the gracious manner of performing it : for even a naturall man may abstaine from lying , stealing , whoring , blaspheaming ; but no naturall man can abstaine from these in a gracious manner , that is , out of the love of god and that such a love as is , amor dei usque ad contemptum sui , the love of god to the contempt of himselfe : for this manner of performing it is supernaturall . secondly , as touching the matter of divine concourse , to the substance of any naturall act . we say god moves the will to the doing of it , as it becomes the first cause to move the second , but how ? agreeable to the nature of it , that is , like as he moves naturall agents to doe that which they doe , necessarily ; so he moves all rationall agents to doe that which they doe , contingently and freely . what is the arminian tenent to the contrary , namely this , that god workes in man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle modo velit , as absurd an assertion as ever any man breathed . it is true , many times our divines in speaking of the secret providence of god in evill , doe expresse themselves in phrases of a very harsh accent in the judgement of flesh and blood , but herein they doe nothing exceed sobriety , forasmuch as usually they contemper themselves to scripture phrase rather within the compasse thereof , then beyond it . yet blasphemy is usually imputed unto them without all feare or wit ; not considering , that herein they impute blasphemy to the language of the holy ghost . as for example . what an horrible sinne is it for kings and princes to imploy their power and authority , not for the supporting of the kingdome of christ , by whom kings reigne , but for the supporting and establishing of the kingdome of antichrist , as in the martyrdome of gods saints , delivered over to the secular power , to that end , and that by censures ecclesiasticall ? now if we should say that it is god that works thus in the hearts of kings , thus to imploy their power for the supporting of antichrist , we should be censured for blasphemers . yet the holy ghost spares not to professe , that god hath put into their hearts to fulfill his will , and to agree and give their kingdome to the beast , untill the words of god be fulfilled . in like sort , from the first preaching of the gospell unto this day , many there have been , and at this day are , who are disobedient unto it , and stumble at it either in the whole or in part . if we should say that they who thus disobey , and stumble at the word of god , are ordained thereunto , such as this author and his complices , are ready to cry out upon us as blaspheamers , and to professe that they will rather deny that there is a god , then hold with the contra-remonstrants . yet s. peter budgeth not to professe , that christ is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence , even to them which stumble at the word of god , being disobedient , whereunto also they were ordained . when we professe that not any thing in the world comes to passe but deo volente , god willing it , we are censured as blasphemers , in professing that god doth will that which is evill , and sinne ; yet not only the articles of ireland , artic. . professe as much , and austin enchir. . non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit : but the apostles with one voyce ( as touching the contumelious usages of the sonne of god , both by jewes and gentiles , herod and pilate ) in their picus meditation poured forth before the face of god , professe , that , both herod and pontius pilate , with the gentiles and people of israel , were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe that which gods hand and gods councell had before determined to be done . in like sort , when we speak of gods giving men over to illusions to believe lies , others to vile affections , and to uncleannesse through the lusts of their own hearts , to dishonour their own bodies between themselves , which consisted in this , that , the women did change their naturall use into that which is against nature ; and likewise the men , leaving the naturall use of the women , burned in their lusts one towards another , men with men working that which is unseemely , and receiving in themselves the recompence of their errour which was meet : and observe herehence , that it is just with god to punish sinne with sinne . and as it hath been observed before us , from the daies of austin , who when iulian the pelagian said , this was done , deserendo , replies , taking him at his word , who could not but professe that god doth thus , the scripture expresly testifying as much ; and touching the manner mentioned by him , addeth , whether god doth this , deserendo , or alio modo sive explicabili , sive inexplicabili , it matters not . an arminian spirit spares not to joyne himselfe with iulian the pelagian in affronting austin thus discoursing out of the word of god , and to professe , that that doctrine of gods punishing sinne with sinne is a common errour ; whereas the apostle professeth in expresse termes , that , herein they received such recompence of their errour as was meet : and what is recompence here but punishment ? and wherein consisted it , but in defiling themselves contrary to nature , as the scripture plainly testifies , saying , men with men working that which is unseemely , and receiving in themselves such recompence of their errour , as was meet . and arminius spares not to professe , that , omnis paena deum authorem habet . wherein yet we concurre not with arminius . wee deny that omnis paena habet deum authorem . it is true that paena positiva , not of all punishment that consists in privation , such as sinne is ; for malum , as austin long agoe pronounced , non habet causam efficientem but deficientem . yet we confesse that god could keep any man from any sinne , but if he will not , this is not sufficient to make him the author of it . it is only a culpable defect that makes one the author of sinne ; that is , when he failes of doing that which he ought to doe . but god is bound to none to preserve him from sinne , any otherwise then his own free will doth bind him ; for he hath mercy on whom he will : and so also on the other side , he hardneth whom he will. yet i have given no instances in any passages of the old testament , which give plentifull testimony of gods secret providence of evill ; the evidence whereof did wring from austin this confession . contra iulian. pelag. lib. . cap. . et multa alia commemorare possemus , in quibus aliquando appareat occulto judicio dei fieri perversitatem cordis ut non audiatur quod verum dicitur , & inde peccetur , & si● ipsum peccatum praecedentis paena peccati . nam credere mendacio & non credere veritati utique peccatum est . venit tamen ab eâ caecitate cordis , quae occulto judicio dei , sed tamen justo , etiam paena peccati monstratur . and in his book de grat & lib. arbitr . cap. . inquiring how it is said that the lord bid shimei to curse david ; quomodo dixit dominus huic homini maledicere david ? quis sapiens & intelligit ? how did god bid this man curse david ? who is wise and he shall understand ? non enim jubendo dixit , ubi obedientia laudaretur , sed quod ejus voluntatem proprio vitio suo malum in hoc peccatum judicio suo justo & occulto inclinavit . ideo dictum est , dixit ei dominus . nam si jubenti obtemperasset deo , laudandus potius quàm puniendus esset , sicut ex hoc peccato postea novimus esse punitum . neither saith he , is the cause concealed , why god thus dealt with shimei , hoc est cor ejus malum in hoc peccatum miserit vel dimiserit ( i expresse it rather in austins words then mine own , because the adversaries of gods truth , think it enough to passe the censure of blasphemy upon ought that we deliver herein . ) now the cause was , ut videat dominus , inquit , humilitatem meam & retribuat mihi bona pro delicto ejus in die isto , that god may see my humility saith david , and recompence me good for his cursing this day . ecce quomodo probatur ( thus austin goes on ) deum uti cordibus etiam malorum ad laudem atque adjumentum honorum . thus , ( saith he ) he used iudas betraying christ , thus he used the iewes crucifying christ : and how great good things did he thereby procure to all that should at any time believe ? who also useth the devill himselfe , though most wicked , yet he useth him optimè most holily , for the exercising and proving of the faith and piety of the righteous , not to himselfe who knowes all things before they come to passe , but to us , who had need that after such manner god should proceed with us . the adding hereunto , how god wrought in the heart of absalom to confound the counsell of achitophel , he breaks forth into this exclamation in the beginning of the next chapter . who would not tremble at the consideration of these judgements divine , whereby god workes even in the hearts of wicked men what he will , yet rendring unto them according to their deserts . then making mention of rehoboam his despising the counsell of the antients , as also that chron. . how god stirred up the spirit of the philistins and arabians against ioram , and they came up upon the land of judah and laid it wast . here , saith austin , it is manifest that god doth raise up enemies to lay such countries wast , whom he judgeth worthy of such punishments . but yet , saith he , will you say they came not up by their own will , or did they so come up by their own will , as to make that untrue which the scripture saith , namely , that god stirred them up ? nay rather both are true , for both they came up by their own will , and yet god stirred up their spirits to come ; which also , saith he , may be delivered in this manner , namely , that both god stirred up their spirit , and also they came up by their own will. agit enim omnipotens in cordibus hominum etiam motum voluntatis eorum : for the almighty doth worke in the hearts of men , the very motion of their will , that he may work by them that which he thinks good to work by them , even he who knoweth not how to work any thing unjustly . unto these he addeth variety of other testimonies all drawn out of the word , and concludes , his & talibus testimoniis divinorum eloquiorum quae omnia commemorare nimis longum est , quantum existimo minifestetur , operari deum in cordibus hominum ad inclinandas eorum voluntates quocunque voluerit sive ad bona pro suâ misericordiâ , sive ad mala pro meritis eorum , judicio utique suo aliquando aperto , aliquando occulto , semper autem justo . introduction . sect . iii. besides it takes from men all conscience of sinne , and makes sinne to be no sinne ; we use to say , necessitas non habet legem , necessity hath no law , &c. ut est in superiori sectione , usque ad finem sectionis . twisse consideration . this motive , as this author calleth it , hath the first place in the th reason of arminius ; whereby he laboureth to disprove their opinion , who conceive the object of predestination to be the masse of mankind not created ; as appears , in the declaration of his opinion made before the states of holland , &c. and it is the first particular of six , mentioned in that sixteenth reason of his . and why should he divide it from the rest , and not clap them together , into this ranke of motives , to prepare him to the renouncing of that tenent , which here he impugneth , and adde arminius his other ninteen reasons hereunto to the same purpose ; if himselfe be privy to the cause thereof , i am not ? but as it lieth i will consider it . now it proceedeth upon supposition , that such a necessity of sinning is brought upon man by this decree , as stands in opposition unto liberty . whereunto i answere . . that this decree in reference to the act of denying grace , brings no necessity at all of sinning upon man ; it being only the divine decree of not cureing by the grace of regeneration ( that is by the grace of faith and repentance ) that naturall infidelity and impenitency wherein every man is borne ; all men being conjecti in necessitatem peccandi , through the sinne of adam , as corvinus confesseth , they being his own words . now let every sober man judge , whether to leave that infidelity and impenitency which god findes in a man uncured , be to bring a necessity of sinning upon him . . secondly , we answer , that notwithstanding that necessity of sinning whereupon all are cast , as cornivus speaketh , yet there is no sinne committed by a naturall and carnall man , which is not committed by him freely : the act of lying , the act of blaspheaming , the act of whoring , the act of drunkennesse , gluttony , rayling , and in generall , every sinfull act being freely committed , by every one by whom it is commited , as is apparent by this , that there is not one of these sinfull acts , but is forborne by divers naturall and carnall men , and therein they doe abstaine from the committing of it freely . and yet we say , that even in abstaining from these acts , they doe not abstaine from sinne , for as much as they doe not abstaine from them in a gracious manner , and all by reason of that originall corruption which remaines uncured in them , untill such time as god , who hath mercy on whom he will , is pleased to cure it by the grace of regeneration . . but because i imagine this author le ts fly at randome , and keeps not himselfe to the precise genius of the tenent by him impugned , but rather aimeth at our doctrine concerning providence divine , and the decree of god ; according whereunto we willing professe with austin that , non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , enchir. . therefore i answere in the third place , that the necessity following upon this will of god , is nothing prejudiciall to the liberty or contingency of second agents in their severall operations . although i am not ignorant , that now a daies it is the common and glorious course of our adversaries , very confidently to presume and presuppose , that upon the will of god , passing upon the action of the creature , there followeth a necessity , standing in flat opposition to the liberty of rationall agents ; and no marvail , for sic factitavit hercules , arminius the great champion of their cause , his learning served him to doe so before them . as if the contumelious usages of our saviour by herod and pontius pilate , together with the gentiles and people of israel , were not performed freely , but by meer necessity opposite to liberty . for it cannot be denied , but that all these were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe what gods hand and gods counsel had predestinated to be done . acts . . and in like sort , they that through disobedience stumbled at the word of god , did not freely disobey the word , because peter professeth of them in expresse termes , that hereunto they were ordained . and after the same manner it is to be conceived of the kings , that gave their kingdomes to the beast , namely that they did it not freely in as much as the holy ghost saith , that god put into their hearts to fulfill his will , and to consent and give their kingdome to the beast . yet the church of ireland in their articles set forth by as good authority , as the articles of the church of england , art. . having professed that , god from all eternity , did by his unchangeable counsel ordaine whatsoever in time should come to passe ; to prevent such like objections as this author fashioneth , forthwith adde , yet so as thereby no violence is offered to the willes of reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty nor the contingency of second causes is taken away , but established rather . and austin in his book de grat. & liber . arbitr . where he speaks as freely of gods effectuall providence working in evill , as no where more , in so much as our adversaries take great exceptions against his speeches ( such as formerly delivered ) and that in expresse termes : his main drift notwithstanding , and scope in that book is to prove , that notwithstanding the divine operation , in working the motion of the creature as he thinks good , yet is the creature never a whit the lesse free in its own operation . and indeed where grace is wanting , there is too much will rather then too little , unto that which is evill ; according to that he writes also elsewhere , libertas sine gratia non est libertas sed contumacia . and if gods operation prejudiceth not the liberty of the creature , much lesse the will of god. for though not any thing comes to passe unlesse god willeth it , whether it be good or evill , yet with this difference as austin in the same place professeth , he will have that which is good come to passe by the effecting of it , but evill only by his permitting of it . non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat vel ipse faciendo . but though austin and the church of ireland , yea and the word of god teacheth this ; yet the tragaedian , as this author saith , could see the contrary , that is , perceive the evidence of the contrary , which none of these saw . and is not this a pretty comaedy , that a tragaedian and zeno's servant must be brought in , and that in a confidentiary supposition to out face , not divines only both antient and late , but the very word of god ? for it is as clear forsooth , that what comes to passe by the will of god , and by the effectuall operation of god , doth not come to passe freely ; and consequently , that the doctrine ( which maintaines that evill comes to passe by the will of god , as the crucifying of christ by the predestination of god , or by the operation of god ; as the rent of the ten tribes from the two , and the hardning of pharaoh's heart , so as not to let israel goe , god professeth to be his work ) takes away all conscience of sinne ? all this i say is as cleare ( if we believe this author ) as that seneca's tragaedies are the oracles of god. and i pray consider , must it not take away as well all conscience of righteousnesse , whether of faith , or of repentance , or of obedience ; unlesse we deny faith to be the gift of god , repentance to be the gift of god ; unles we deny that god is he , who makes us perfect to every good work , working in us that which is pleasing in his sight , that god is he that putteth his own spirit in us , and causeth us to walke in his statutes , and to keep his judgements and doe them ? yet what doth seneca speak of the divine will , or divine operation ? did the tragaedian under the terme of fate , denote the divine decree , or the divine administration of things , which is plentifully revealed to us in the word of god ? austin i am sure thought otherwise in more places then one , in psalm . . on these words , pronunciabo adversum me , he blames those who when they are found in their sinnes say , fatum mihi fecit , stellae meae fecêrunt , but saith he , quid est fatum ? quae sunt stellae ? certè istae quas in coelo conspicimus ; & qui eas fecit ? deus . quis eas ordinavit ? deus , ergo vides quod voluisti dicere , deus fecit ut peccarem : then he tells of others , who said that mars facit homicidam , venus adulterum . so that fatum with them were second causes , which we all know in their operations , doe both work by necessity of nature , and have no power to maintain the free will of man ; and in psalm . . quaeris ab illo quid sit fatum , & dicit stellae malae . quaeris ab illo , quis fecit stellas , quis ordinavit stellas ; non habet quid tibi respondeat nisi deus . it 's true indeed , the pelagians did object the stoicall fate unto austin , as if his doctrine favoured of it ; and what doth he answer thereunto ? nec sub nomine gratiae fatum asserimus , quia nullis hominum meritis dicimus dei gratiam antecedi . si autem quibusdam omnipotentis dei voluntatem placet fati nomine nuncupari , profanas quidem verborum novitates evitamus , sed de verbis contendere non amamus . yet because we are to give the devill his right ; with what conscience could this author professe of this fatum of the heathens , that their faith thereof did take away all conscience of sinne , seeing it did not take away the conscience of sinne in her , who is made by the poet to utter this ; as appears in the same author within a few lines after . for there she professeth , that if god the creator of all , should make his wrath break forth against her , and strike her with a thunderbolt from heaven , yet this were no sufficient punishment for her sinnes . queen iocastas word are these . non si ipse mundum concitans divum sator corusca saeva teia jaculetur manu unquam rependam sceleribus paenas pares . shee justifies god and condemnes her selfe , notwithstanding her former words used only as it seems , to pacify the furious moode of her sonne and husband oaedipus . will not such one day , rise up in judgement against many christians , who unlesse themselves may be exempted from that providence divine , whereby he moves all things agreeable to their natures , are so apt to condemne god of injustice , and justify themselves , as needing not to have any conscience of sinne ? and which is most strange , they acknowledge fate in this case to be such , as that it necessitated even god himselfe ; as appears by the last chorus . fatis agimur , cedite fatis , non sollicitae possunt curae mutare rati stamina fusi . quicquid patimur mortale genus , quicquid facimus venit ex alto : servátque sua decreta colus lachesis durâ revoluta manu . omnia certo tramite vadunt ; primúsque dies dedit extremum non illa deo vertisse licet , quae nexa suis currunt causis it cuique ratus prece non ullâ mobilis ordo , multis ipsum timuisse nocet , multi ad fatum venere suum dum fata timent . but as i said before , whatsoever they conceived of fate , and howsoever they fashioned it , their opinion thereof did not expectorate all conscience of sinne in them , or urge them to justify or excuse themselves in their courses . for it appears both of oaedipus and iocasta , that they not only condemned themselves , but became selfe executioners of punishment upon themselves for their foule crimes : the one pulling out his own eyes , judging himselfe unworthy to see the light ; and the other destroying herselfe . though whatsoever they or the poets that set them forth conceived of fate , in this case of theirs , it was only the oracles of the devills , and his illusions that abused them ; god giving them over thereunto , and that no doubt most justly ; when in a wicked curiosity they desire to know , what shall become of them and their children : the devill gives forth his oracles as he thinks good , afterwards sets his witts on work to accomplish them thereby , to gain the greater credit and reputation to himselfe , and so much the more forcibly holds them in his snares . but to proceed . this argument or motive is not yet at an end , but like as this doctrine , is pretended to take away all conscience of sinne , which is as much as to say , all desert of sinne on the one side ; so it may be extended to shew , how it takes away all conscience of obedience , and all desert thereupon , on the other side ; to wit , in good actions . and indeed were it true , that the doctrine did bereave a man of all free will , it were true , as hierome saith , that where such necessity is , nec damnatio , nec corona est but austin hath spent an whole book in proofe of this , namely ; that grace consists with freedome of will , unto that which is good ; and want of grace together with god's efficacious operation , even in the worst of things , doth consist also with freedome of will unto that which is evill . but that in the state of nature man hath no free will to that which is good , but is a servant unto sin , i know no man that doth or can deny , unlesse withall he deny originall sinne with the pelagians ; like as indeed it is written of grevincovius that great arminian , that , grevincovius negavit peccatum originale , quod & testibus convinci potest . and indeed this authors discourse bears strongly this way , whatsoever protestation in shew of words he makes hereafter to the contrary . for it is apparent , that in this place , the face of his discourse stands for freedome of will in all , as well unto that which is good , as unto that which is evill . and albeit there is so little difference between this and his former motive ( touching the conscience of sinne ) that it seems to be added only to make way for this sentence of hierome , which yet is nothing to the purpose , unlesse he can prove , that gods decrees doe bereave men of liberty of their wills : yet very unhappily doth he carry himself herein and in farre different manner from hierom's expression , though he placeth corona in opposition to damnation ; one whereof , to wit , damnation , implies the merit of sinne preceding : but the other , to wit , corona , no way implies any meritorious nature of obedience precedanious thereunto . but this author sticks not to apply a meritorious condition to good actions on the one side , as well as to evill actions on the other . and if good actions were as meritorious , and that naturally too , of the crown of righteousnesse , as evill actions are of damnation . and withall he will have no more to decree , or work the faith , and repentance , and obedience of one , then he doth the infidelity , and impenitency , and disobedience of another , least this his will & operation , prove an adamantine chaine , of necessity to draw them to faith , and repentance , and obedience , whereas his wisdome thinks it fit , they should be left to their own choyce , whetherthey will believe and repent , yea or no. for he doth very considently presume , that every man hath power to believe and repent , and doe any good work ; which is as good , as in expresse termes to professe , that there is no originall sinne at all ; notwithstanding so many expresse testimonies of holy writ to the contrary , namely , iohn . of some that , they could not believe . rom. . of others that , they could not repent . rom. . of all that are in the flesh , that , they cannot please god. cor. . of the natural man that , he neither perceives the things of god nor can know them ; of the israelites in the wildernesse , that , god had not given them an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto that day . deutr. . . but these passages of holy scripture , seem to have no place in this authors consideration , if so be they have in his creed . this bed is something too short for him to stretch himselfe thereon ; and therefore he desires to change his lodging , and to passe from the desert of good actions , to the desert of evill actions , which he formerly insisted upon , and he tells a story of zeno's servant most suitable to his iambick taken out of seneca , though he quotes the place of neither . well , zeno's servant , he saith , when he was punished by his master for a fault that he had done , told his master out of his own grounds , that he was unjustly beaten , because he was , fato coactus peccare : and hereupon making his reckoning without his hoste , concludes that , certainly if malefactors could not chuse but play their rude prankes , they could not be justly punished for them : wherein he tells us what the servant said ; but what the master answered , thereof he saith just nothing . nay doth he truly relate what the servant said ? nothing lesse , but shapes it , as he thinks good , that making his own bed , he may lye thereon more softly . if we may believe diogenes laertius who reports the story , the servants answer was not fato coactus sum peccare , but fatale mihi erat furari . for he took his ser●●●● laying the theefe , & though the servant took advantage from his masters do●●●● of fate , to frame an apology for himselfe , yet would not zeno permit him to 〈◊〉 thereby any priviledge from stripes . for , servum in furto deprehensum verberavit . a manifest evidence that even in his opinion , the destiny he maintained was no just excuse for sinne . and to meet him in his own plea , when he said . fatale mihi erat furari , & caedi inquit : this was the answer he made to his servant , which answer of his this author either conceales , or was not privy to his own ignorance . and indeed chrysippus the stoick , though an eager maintainer of fate stoicall , yet denyed not the liberty of mens wills , as appears in cicero de fato , though in his opinion this doctrine of theirs did cohere . and plutarch likewise in his book de fato professeth as much . fatum omnia continet , sicut etiam videtur , neque tamen proptereà omnia necessariò eveniunt , sed unumquodque suo naturae modo . neither did zeno conceive hereby all place to be taken away for perswasion , as appears by his answer to crates , when he took him by the cloake to draw him away from stilpo , saying , o crates , commodissimè auribus philosophum teneas . cum igitur persuaseris , tum illum trahe . nam si per vim egeris , corpus quidem apud te , sed animus apud stilponem erit . neither were any philosophers more studious of morality then the stoicks , they wrote de bonis & malis , de affectibus , de virtute , de fine , deque primâ aestimatione , & de actibus ac de officiis , de adhortationibus & dehortationibus , as diogenes writes in the life of zeno. and austin de civit. dei cap. . professeth of the stoicks , that , though omnia fato fieri contenderent , yet , non omnia necessitate fieri dicerent . and more then this , whereas the stoicks were so jealous of maintaining the liberty of mens wills , that they denyed them of all other things to be subject to necessity . austin professeth that their feare , of subjecting the wills of men unto necessity , in this respect was a causelesse feare . ibid. cap. . unde nec illa necessitas formidanda est , quam formidando stoici laboraverunt , causas rerum ita distinguere ut quasdam subtraherent necessitati , quasdam subderent ; atque in his quas esse sub necessitate noluerunt , posuerunt etiam nostras voluntates , ne videlicet non essent liberae , si subderentur necessitati . and then proceeds to shew , that there is a certain necessity nothing prejudiciall to the will , albeit the will be acknowledged in subjection thereunto . and that necessity he describes to be this , as when we say , that , necesse est ut ita sit aliquid vel ita fiat ; his words are these ; si autem illa definitur esse necessitas , secundum quam dicimus necesse est , ut ita sit aliquid , vel ita fiat , nescio cur eam timemus ne nobis libertatem auferat voluntatis . herein austin professeth to goe beyond the stoicks , in acknowledging a necessity whereunto the will of man is subject , and that without detriment to the liberty thereof . yet in my judgement , it would better become a christian divine , to informe both himselfe and others out of the word of god , and rest thereon for the discovery of the nature of providence and predestination divine , then to goe a forraging among poets and stoicks , for the justification of his own , in point of christian faith , and for the redargution of the way of his opposites . introduction . sect . iv. these absurdities following too evidently from the upper way , others of the same side wiling to decline them as rocks and precipices , doe leave that way , and present man to god in his decree of reprobation , lying in the fault and under the guilt of originall sinne ; and say , that god looking upon miserable mankind lying in adams sinne , did decree the greatest part of them to eternall torments in hell without remedy , for the manifestation of his severe justice . but notwithstanding this difference among themselves , they agree well enough together . for this little jarre is not ( in their judgements ) enough to make a breach between them , as we may see in the conference at the hague , and in the synod at dort. in the conference at the hague the contra-remonstrants have these words . quoad sententiarum diversitatem in hoc argumento , quod deus hominem respexit in hoc decreto nondum creätum , vel creätum & lapsum , quia hoc ad fundamentum hujus doctrinae non pertinet libentèr alii alios aequitate christiana toleramus . after this in the synod of dort , they permitted gomarus to goe the supralapsarian way ; and the delegates of south holland were very indifferent which way they took . for these are their words , an deus in eligendo consideravit homines ut lapsos , an etiam ut nondum lapsos , existimant ( viz. the delegates aforesaid ) non esse necessarium ut definiatur , modo statuatur deum in eligendo considerasse omnes homines in pari statu . and to say the truth there is no reason why they should quarrell about circumstances , seeing they agree in the substance . for they both say . . that the moving cause of reprobation is the alone will of god , and not the sinne of man originall , or actuall . . that the finall impenitency and damnation of reprobates , are necessary and unavoidable by gods absolute decree . these two things are the maxima gravamina that the other side stick at . so that these two paths meet at last in the same way . but because this last is chosen by the most , and latest maintainers of the absolute decree , as the more moderate of the two , and the easyer to be defended , i will set down the conclusion which i dislike in their way and words . god hath absolutely purposed from eternity , of his meer will and pleasure without any consideration of actuall continuance in sinne and unbeliefe , utterly to cast off from grace and glory , millions of men considered in the fall ( even those whom he calls to repentance and solvation by the preaching of the gospell ) for the manifestation of his severity and justice . that all mankind is involved in the first sinne and the fruits thereof , which are corruption of nature , and the guilt of eternall death , i confidently believe . but that god did absolutely intend to leave men in that woefull state for ever , and upon this only sinne , to build a peremptory decree of the unavoidable damnation of the farre greater part of mankind , i cannot yet be perswaded . having thus plainly laid down the position , which i deem to be false , i come now in the next place to deliver my reasons against it , which are of two sorts : . such as first made me to question the truth of it . . such as doe for the present convince me that it cannot be a truth . twisse consideration . here breaks out the main reason , that moved this author to represent the different opinions of our divines about the object of predestination , that so a way might be opened unto him at pleasure , to charge the former opinion with what he thought good ; and as for the proofe of his criminations , he might the better ease himselfe of the burthen thereof , by shewing the dissent of other devines of the same profession from the former in this particular , making choyce rather to shape the object of predestination and reprobation , under the notion of mankind , lying in the masse corrupt by the fall of adam . for surely it is to be presupposed , that they did not dissent from their former friends without some reason , and this author makes bold to insinuate , that these absurdities mentioned by him were the reasons : as when he saith , these absurdities following too evidently from the upper way ; others of the same side willing to decline them , as rocks and precipices doe leave that way . but that these were the motives whereby they were induced to decline the former opinion , and to embrace the latter , he proves not , nor so much as adventureth upon the proofe thereof , but leaves unto his credulous reader to supply that by his forwardnesse , to take it upon trust ; as if this discourser by his morall carriage , might winne the opinion of so much worthinesse , as to be a man with whom you may well play at put-finger in the darke , quicum in tenebris mices . and yet arminius might have taught him , that there is a middle opinion between these ; namely , of those who make the object of predestination the masse of mankind created , but not yet corrupted . and he puts this opinion upon junius , and appeals to his theses , as giving evident testimony thereunto . now there is no shew or colour of reason , why , to avoyd the absurdities premised by this author , any man should decline the first way , and embrace the second , which is the way of junius . and this i conceive to be the main reason , why this second way is altogether dissembled by this author , or by the spirit that guided him . for albeit it was for this advantage ( who hankes after every sorry consideration to serve his turne in the way of motive , learning to represent the multiplicity of opinions hereabouts amongst our divines : ) yet it being a matter of greater moment , to gain the justification of his absurdities charged upon the first way , from the mouthes or practice of our divines , at least in appearance : and some colour hereof he findes by declining the first way and falling upon the third ; but no colour at all by declining the first way and falling upon the second . therefore he thought it a part of his wisdome altogether to dissemble the second , and to represent the opinion of those divines who decline the first ( yea and second too ) and fall upon the third . but suppose iunius had preferred the third way and not the second , had he done it out of a desire to decline the absurdities here mentioned ? it is apparent by that his conference with arminius ( which yet he set not forth , but the arminian party after his death ) that he maintaines all these considerations to have their place in predestination , and therefore makes hominem communiter consideratum the object of predestination , which as it is a notion abstract from all the three speciall notions of nondum conditum , or conditum , but nondum corruptum , or denique corruptum , so it is indifferently applyable unto them all . and indeed piscator resolves the question about the object of predestination , namely , that as predestination includes the decree of creating men unto different ends , so the object must necessarily be mankind not yet created ; as it includes the decree of permitting all to fall in adam , so the object ( as he thinkes ) must be mankind created , but not yet corrupted ; and lastly as it includes the decree of chusing some out of that corrupt masse , and refusing others or leaving them in it . so the object of his judgement must be mankind both created and corrupted . and arminius himselfe professeth , that the twenty reasons wherewith he disputeth against the first way , may also be accommodated against the other waies . and albeit the followers of the second and third way doe think that they can better maintain their tenent , and free it from the absurdities wherewith the other waies are charged ; yet it followeth not herehence , that therefore they did justify them , the contrary whereunto appears in the particular of iunius , as before i mentioned . moulin indeed disputes against the first , but doth he , to decline that , subsist in the third , as touching the making of the corrupt masse the object of reprobation ? it is apparent he doth not . but as reprobation denotes gods decree of damnation , he premiseth thereunto , the foresight of finall impenitency . of this opinion of his , this author takes no notice . yet is moulin sound throughout in the doctrine of election ; wherein if this author did concurre with him , we should nothing trouble our selves to take him off from his concurrence with moulin in that particular of reprobation . and wee of the first way are willing to professe , that god neither damnes nor decrees to damne any man , but for sinne and finall perseverance therein ; nor so only , but in plain termes to pronounce , that in no moment of nature doth gods intention of damnation precede the consideration of sinne , and final impenitency ; though we doe not make the consideration of sinne to precede the intention of damnation , as moulin doth . and to my understanding , other reasons there are , which cast divines upon the third way , then the declining of these absurdities mentioned by this author ; as namely , that the very notions of election and reprobation , the one being conceived to be an act of mercy , the other an act of justice , doe presuppose sinne . and whereas arminius in his conference with iunius , produceth five reasons against the first way , no lesse then foure of them proceed on this manner ; the first thus , praedestinatio est voluntas dei de illustrandâ suâ gloriâ per misericordiā & justitiā : at illa voluntas locum non habet in nondum condito ceu condendo . the third thus , praedestinatio est pars providentiae administrantis & gubernātis humanū genus ; ergò posterior naturâ actu creationis vel proposito creandi . si posterior actu creationis vel propositio creandi hominē , jam homo praedestinationis objectum non est consideratus , ut nondū conditus . his th argument is this , predestinatio est praeparatio supernaturalium bonorū ; ergo praecedit communicatio naturaliū , & proptereà creatio in naturâ sive actu , sive in decreto dei. his last reason is of the same nature thus , illustratio sapientiae dei per creationē prior est illustratione sapientiae dei quae est administratio praedestinationis , cor. . . ergo creatio prior est praedestinatione . to all which reasons of his , i have answered in my vindic. grat. dei. lib. . part . . de praedestin . digress . . in severall chapters . only the second argument of arminius insisteth upon gods ordination of mans fall . and to be freed from the trouble of answering this argument , is the only thing that i know we gain , by leaving the first and second way , and embarking our selves in the third . but how freed ? surely only so farre , as that the doctrine of election and reprobation , supposing adams fall , doth not engage us to inquire into divine providence concerning adams fall . but neverthelesse it cannot be denied , but that had not god permitted adam to fall , he had never fallen . and we that take the first way , acknowledge no other providence divine concerning the ingresse of sinne , as sinne , into the world , but in the way of permission . sinne as sinne admitting no cause efficient , but deficient only . and it is utterly impossible , that god , either in doing what he doth , or in forbearing to doe what he doth not , should in any culpable , or justly blameable manner be deficient . and if it be farther demanded , whether upon gods permission it followeth , that sinne shall be committed by the creature ; we readily professe it doth . this vorstius acknowledgeth a favorite of the arminians . nay doth not arminius himself deliver it expresly , where he saith , that when god permitteth the willing of ought , necesse est ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum ? this he delivers without all qualification of the necessity mentioned , which we doe not . and this also navarettus a papist professeth , and though he be a dominican , yet i know no jesuite that opposeth him in this . and if any man inferre herehence , that then god determining to permit sinne , did determine that sinne should enter into the world. we willingly grant that god did so ordaine namely , that sinne should come to passe by his permission . non aliquid fit ( saith austin ) nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo . and bellarmine professeth , that , bonum est mala fieri deo permittente : so that herein god doth not will evill , but that which is good in the acknowledgement of bellarmine ; and that in the heat of his opposition against our divines in this particular . and arminius is expresse in saying , voluit deus achabum mensuram scelerum implere . and what is this but , peccata peccatis cumulare ? and though the jesuits and arminians doe with all their force resist , yet it evidently followes from the notion of efficacious grace embraced by the one , and by the notion of an efficacious impediment of sinne , dictated by arminius himselfe . for efficacious grace with the jesuites , consists in the congruity thereof , and the congruity thereof consists in this , that god foreseeth that upon the confession thereof sinne will be avoided . now what is the reason why god grants such a grace , whereupon he seeth sin will not be avoided ; and denies such a grace , upon the granting whereof , he knowes full well that sinne would be avoided ; but because his pleasure is , that sinne shall be committed by his permission , and not be avoyded , although he hath given them grace sufficient to avoid it , as they say , and it was most true of adam in the state of innocency . in like sort doth arminius distinguish of , peceati impedimentum sufficiens & efficax , efficacious hinderance of sinne , is that whereby god seeth sinne will be avoided ; sufficient is only that whereby a man may avoid it if he will. but withall he confesseth , that god in the promptuary of his wisdome , hath not only such impediments as are sufficient to the avoiding of any sinne , but such also , as whereby any sinne would indeed be avoided , were he pleased to grant them . but yet as often as he thinks good to permit sinne , he doth not grant such impediments . and is not this a manifest evidence , that it is gods will , that sinne shall come to passe ( to wit , as often as it doth come to passe ) by his permission ? but suppose all our divines that embrace the third way , doe imagine the absurdities here spoken of , to be justly chargeable upon the first way . yet as he thinks them in an errour , while they conceive they can with ease avoid these absurdities by their third way , let him be pleased to conceive , they may as well be in an errour , in thinking them justly chargeable upon the first way ; and consequently their opinion is nothing sufficient to justify , that they are unremoveable by them that embrace the first way . it is true there is no cause of breach either of unity or amity between our divines upon this difference , as i shewed in my digressions de praedestinatione digress . . seeing neither of them derogate either from the prerogative of gods grace , or of his soveraignty over his creatures , to give grace to whom he will , and to deny it to whom he will , and consequently , to make whom he will vessels of mercy , and whom he will vessells of wrath ; but equally they stand for the divine prerogative in each . and as for the ordering of gods decrees of creation , permission of the fall of adam , giving grace of faith and repentance unto some , and denying it to others , and finally saving some and damning others , whereupon only arise the different opinions , as touching the object of predestination and reprobation , it is meerly apex logicus , a poynt of logick . and were it not a meer madnesse , to make a breach of unity or charity in the church of god , meerely upon a poynt of logick ? thus have i justified the improbability and utter unlikelihood , that ever any schisme will be made in the church of god , upon these nice and meer logicall differences , in my vindic. grat. dei , which this author is acquainted with as appears by a passage that hereafter he representeth therehence , and that farther into the book then these my digressions are upon the point of predestination , but is content to take no notice thereof , least it might hinder the course of his scene , whereunto it is fit he should be serviceable . and as for the two articles here mentioned , wherein they are said unanimously to agree , and which he calls maxima gravamina . it is true they doe agree herein , but it may be in a farre other sense , then he is willing should be taken notice of . for as for the first , . that the moving cause of reprobation , is the alone will of god , and not the sinne of man originall or actuall . . this is true in proportion to election , that like as no good work of man is the moving cause of election , but only the will of god ; so no sinne or evill work of man is the cause of reprobation , but only the will of god. . that so it is of election , the apostle both . saith , election is not of workes but of him that calleth . . and proveth thus , before esau and iacob were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said , the elder shall serve the younger ; therefore election is not of workes ( that is of good workes ) but of him that calleth . . that so it is of reprobation , i prove by the same argument of the apostle , thus , before esau and iacob were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said the elder shall serve the younger ; therefore reprobation stands not of workes ( that is of evill workes ) but of the meer pleasure of god. . and like as this is farther evident by gods course of calling in the point of election , as the apostle intimateth , for as much as god calleth effectually whom he will in bestowing faith and repentance upon them . for as the apostle afterwards professeth , he hath mercy on whom he will. . so it is as evident in the point of reprobation , in as much as god refuseth to call whom he will , by denying faith and repentance unto them , as afterwards the same apostle professeth , saying , that god hardneth whom he will. . and this doctrine we doe explicate by distinguishing that which our adversaries desire to confound , least their cheating carriage should be discovered , as formerly i have shewed . for predestination and reprobation , may be considered either quoad praedestinantis & reprobantis actum ; or quoad praedestinationis & reprobationis terminum , as much as to say , quoad res praedestinatione & reprobatione praeparatas , that is , either as touching the act of predestination and reprobation , or as touching the things decreed by predestination or reprobation . now as touching the act of predestination never any man ( saith aquinas ) was so mad as to say that the merits of man are the cause of predestination . and why so ? because the act of predestination is the act of gods will , and formerly ( saith he ) i have shewed , that there can be no cause of the will of god , as touching the act of god willing , but only as touching the things willed by god. now apply this to reprobation . for is not reprobation as touching the act of god reprobating , the very act also of gods will ? this cannot be denied : and herehence it followes , that like as there can be no cause of gods will , as touching the act of god willing , so there can be no cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating . and like as it was a mad thing in aquinas his judgement to say , that merits were the cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating ; so it is no lesse madnesse in his judgement , to maintain that either sinne originall or actuall , can be the meritorious cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating . and what are the reasons hereof in school-divinity ? why surely these . . predestination and reprobation are eternall , but good workes and evill workes of the creature are temporall ; but impossible it is , that a thing temporall , can be the cause of that which is eternall . . the act of predestination and reprobation is the act of gods will , and the act of gods will , like as the act of his knowledge , is the very essence of god even god himselfe ; and therefore to introduce a cause of gods will , is to bring in a cause of god himselfe . . if works or faith foreseen be any moving cause of divine election , then either they are so of their own nature , or by the meer constitution of god. not of their own nature , as it is apparent ; therefore by the constitution of god : but this cannot stand neither . for if by the constitution of god , then it would follow , that god did constitute , that upon foresight of mans faith he would elect him , that is , ordaine him to salvation . and what i pray is to constitute ? is it any other then to ordaine ? and herehence it followeth , god did ordaine that upon foresight of mans faith , he would ordaine him unto salvation : whereby the eternall ordination of god , is made the object of his eternall ordination ; whereas it is well known , and generally received , that nothing , but that which is temporall , can be the object of divine ordination which is eternall . in like sort i dispute of reprobation : if sinne be the cause thereof , then either of its own nature it is the cause thereof , or by the ordinance of god : not of its own nature as all are ready to confesse : if you say by the ordinance of god , then it follows god did ordaine , that upon the foresight of mans sinne , he would ordaine him unto damnation . for reprobation is gods ordaining a man unto damnation , as touching one part of the things decreed thereby ; which we come to consider in the next place , and that both in election and in reprobation , having hitherto considered them as touching the act of god electing or reprobating , and shewed that thus they can have no cause . but as touching the things decreed , thereby they may have a cause as aquinas professeth and we professe with him . as for example to begin with election . the things decreed or destinated to a man in election are two , grace and glory . now both these may have a cause : for both grace is the cause of glory ; and christs merits are the cause both of grace and glory . but let grace be rightly understood . for in the confuse notion of grace many are apt to lurke , thereby to shut their eyes against the evidence of truth . for no marvail if men be in love with their own errours ; and in proportion to the love of errour , such is their hatred of divine truth opposite thereunto . now by grace , we understand the grace of regeneration , whereby that naturall corruption of mind and will ( commonly called blindnesse of mind and hardnesse of heart ) which we all bring into the world with us through originall sin , is in part cured . more distinctly we call this grace , the grace of faith and repentance , whereby our naturall infidelity and impenitency is cured . now this grace we say god bestowes on whom he will , finding all equall in infidelity and impenitency . for so the apostle tells us , that , god hath mercy on whom he will. and as god bestowes it on whom he will , not finding any cause in man any way moving him , either in its own nature , or by divine constitution , moving him to bestow this grace on any . so the apostle timoth. . . god hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling , not according to our workes , but according to his own purpose and grace . and indeed we being all found dead in sinne , what could be found in one to move god to bestow the life of faith and repentance upon him , more then upon another ? and if any such thing were found in man moving god hereunto , then should grace be bestowed according unto works , that is in the fathers phraise ( as bellarmine acknowledgeth ) according unto merits ; which was condemned years agoe , in the synod of palestine : and pelagius himselfe was driven to subscribe unto it , otherwise they had condemned him also . but as touching the conferring of glory , god doth not bestow this on whom he will , finding men equall without any moving cause thereunto , even in man ; for though there be no moving cause hereunto in man of its own nature , yet there is to be found , a moving cause in man by constitution divine , whereby god is as it were moved to bestow solvation on some , and not on others . for god hath made a gracious promise , that whosoever beleeveth and repenteth , and continueth in faith and repentance unto death shall be saved , and whosoever beleeveth not and repenteth not shall be damned . so then though men are equall in originall sinne , and in naturall corruption , and god bestowes faith and repentance on whom of them he will , curing their corruption in whom he will : yet when , he comes to the conferring of glory , men are not found equall in morall condition ; and accordingly god cannot be said on like manner , to bestow glory & solvation on whō he will ; for he hath tyed himselfe by his own constitution to bestow solvation on none , but such as dye in thestate of grace . yet , i confes , some say that god bestows solvation on whom he will , in as much as he is the author of their faith & repentance , & bestows these graces on whō he will , yet certainly there is a different manner in the use of this phraise of bestowing this or that on whom he will. for when god bestowes faith and repentance , he findes them on whom he will bestow it , no better then others : but when he comes to the bestowing of glory he findes them , on whom he bestowes that , farre better them others . now we come to the things decreed in reprobation , and these are two . . the denyall of the grace of regeneration , that is , of the grace of faith and repentance , whereby mans naturall infidelity and impenitency is cured . . the denyall of glory , and the inflicting of damnation . the first of these , to wit , the denyall of grace mentioned , is made to whom he will. and it must needs be so , in ease god gives this grace to whom he will. and the apostle professeth , that as god hath mercy on whom he will , so he hardneth whom he will. and as god denies this grace to whom he will , so did he decree to deny it to whom he will : yet there is a difference considerable : for albeit god hardneth whom he will , by denying unto them the grace of faith and repentance ; yet notwithstanding , like as it is just with god to inflict damnation upon them , for that sinne whether originall or actuall , wherein he findes them , when the ministry of the word is afforded them : so likewise it cannot be denied to be iust with god , to leave their infidelity and impenitency wherein he finds them uncured . but yet because god hath not made any such constitution , namely , that whosoever is found in infidelity and impenitency , shall be so left and abandoned by him : therefore he is properly said , as to cure it in whom he will , so to leave it uncured in whom he will , finding them all equall in originall sinne , and consequently lying equally in this their naturall infidelity and impenitencv . so wee may iustly say , there is no cause at all in man of this difference , to wit , why god cures infidelity & impenitency in one and not in another , but it is the meer pleasure of god that is the cause of this difference . and if any list to contend hereabouts , we shall be willing to entertaine him , and conferre our strength of argumentation on this point . . but as touching the denyall of glory and inflicting of damnation , which is the second thing decreed in reprobation , there is alwaies found a cause motive , yea and meritorious hereof , to wit , both of the denyall of the one & inflicting of the other : and god doth not proceed herein according to the meer pleasure of his will , & that by reason of his own constitution , having ordained that whosoever continueth finally in infidelity , in profane courses , and impenitency shall be damned . and albeit on the other side it may be said in some sence ( as formerly i have shewed ) that god saves whom he will , in as much as he is the author of faith , which he bestowes on whom he will ; yet in no congruous sence can he be said to damne whom he will , for as much as he is not the author of sinne , as he is the author of faith . for every good thing he workes , but sinne and the evill thereof he only permits , not causeth it . and lastly , as god doth not damne whom he will , but those only whom he finds finally to have persevered in sinne without repentance : so neither did he decree to damne , or reprobate to damnation whom he will , but only those who should be found finally to persevere in sinne without repentance . now let us apply this to the article we have in hand , which is this ; the moving cause of reprobation is the only will of god , and not the sinne of man originall or actuall : and for the explication hereof , according to that which hath been formerly delivered , we say that reprobation doth signify , either a purpose of denying grace , as above mentioned , or a purpose of inflicting damnation . and each may be considered , either as touching the act of gods decree , or as touching the things decreed . we shew how the article holds or holds not , being differently accommodated . . as touching the things decreed , . as touching the deniall of grace , we say , that god decreed of his meere good pleasure to deny unto some the grace of faith and repentance , for the curing of that naturall infidelity and impenitency which is found in all , without any motive cause hereunto found in one more then in another . . as touching the inflicting of damnation , we say , that god decreed to inflict damnation on some , not of his meer pleasure , but meerly for their finall perseverance in sinne without repentance . . as touching the very act of gods decree , we say , nothing in man could be the cause hereof , but the meer pleasure of god , as aquinas professeth it a mad thing to devise in man a cause of divine predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating , & as i have shewed , because both are eternall and the act of gods will , which is god himselfe : and withall to devise a cause hereof , is to cast our selves upon an unavoydable absurdity , as namely to say , that god did ordaine that upon the foresight of this or that in men , he would ordaine some of them to solvation , and others unto damnation . and indeed the harshnesse of the tenent , consists chiefly in confounding these different considerations , whereby a colour is cast , as if we maintained that god did decree to damne men of his meere pleasure and not for sin . . as touching the second which is this , that the finall impenitency and damnation of reprobates are necessary , and unavoydable by gods absolute decree . here as it were to make weight , impenitency and damnation are clapt together , as unavoydable by gods absolute decree ; whereas it is without all question , that supposing impenitency to be finall , damnation is unavoydable by the law of god , as who hath ordained , that whosoever dies in impenitency shall be damned . and as for impenitency , doth this author , or any arminian deny it to be a fruit of that originall corruption wherein all are borne ? i perswade my selfe they doe not . corvinus professeth of all , that by the sinne of adam , they are , conjecti in necessitatem peccandi . then againe doth he maintaine that any is able to cure this but god. it seems he doth not by that which followeth , where he signifieth that god ( in his opinion ) did not absolutely intend to leave men to that woefull estate wherein they were borne . what then ? will he have god bound to cure it in all ? if so , then certainly he doth cure it in all . for it were impossible god should not doe that , whereunto he is obliged in the way of justice . but nothing more manifest , then that god doth not cure it in all : therefore certainly he is not bound to cure it in all . but i imagine he conceives that god is ready to cure it in all , and it is mans fault that he doth not cure it in any . as much as to say , if man would doe somewhat which he may doe , then god would give him repentance . here is good stuffe towards ; and undoubtedly , this is the criticall point as touching the nature of efficacious grace . yet this i know full well , how carefull the greatest rabbies amongst the arminians are to decline . and will it not manifestly follow herehence , that the grace of repentance is given secundum merita , according to some good work of man that went before ? which was condemned in the synode of palestine above years agoe ; nay what will you say , if their doctrine hereabouts in the issue thereof comes to this , namely that god doth work in man , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle credere ; modo velit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle resipiscere , modò velit , as i can shew it under the hand of one ? and i have cause to suspect that it comes also from another manner of hand , then his , with whom i have had to deale with . and in this case it shall not be true that god shews mercy on whom he will , in giving faith and repentance , but rather he shall shew mercy on whom man will. and like as when a question is made , why such a man is rewarded by the magistrate , no wise man will answer because it is the pleasure of the magistrate so to reward him , but rather represent the cause on mans part , why he was reward : so if god shews mercy in giving repentance according to some preparation found in one man , rather then in another , it shall not be said , that god hath mercy on whom he will , but rather the reason on mans part is to be represented , why god doth give him repentance . yet these petitions he calls maxima gravamina on the part of reprobation . and will he not give us leave to propose in proportion hereunto , our maxima gravamina , as touching their opinion in point of election ? namely . . that it is not the meer pleasure of god , but the faith and repentance of a man foreseen , that is the moving cause of divine election . . and that every man hath power to believe and repent , and no man hath more cause to be thankfull unto god ; for giving him any more grace to believe and repent ( in the way of grace preventing ) then he gives to reprobates . i speak of reprobate men , but for ought i yet know to the contrary , i may as well deliver it of the reprobate angells . and as touching that which they call grace subsequent , which is only gods concurrence , seeing god affords that to any sinfull act , they may thank themselves , rather then god for that , like as for gods concurrence unto any act of sinne . these doctrines are no gravamina to the tender consciences of our adversaries . the doctrine opposite to this which here he dislikes must needs be this , god hath not absolutely purposed from eternity of his meer will and pleasure , but upon consideration of actuall continuance in sinne and unbeliefe , to cast off men from grace and glory . now this actuall continuance in unbeliefe i presume must be finall ; and upon the consideration hereof , god casts them off from grace : but i pray from what grace ? surely from the grace of faith ; otherwise it stands not in any contradiction to our tenent . so that their doctrine in the issue comes to this , whom god foresees that they will not believe unto death , he decrees that they shall not believe unto death : and applied unto repentance , thus ; whom god foresees that they will not repent unto death , he decreeth that they shall not repent unto death . this is the sober and savoury doctrine of these impugners of the grace of god : and yet they perceive not what a spirit of giddinesse possesseth them in this . it is without question ( i think ) that god leaves many in that woefull estate which here is called corruption of nature ( no more , without any specification wherein it consists ) the guilt whereof is eternall death ; and seeing that if he so leaves them , it cannot be denied , but that god intended so to leave them . all the question is , whether god did absolutely intend to leave them . now had this author , as he professeth his dislike of gods absolue intention hereof , so dealt clearly , and shewed how he did intend so to leave some , as namely upon what condition , or upon foresight whereof , and withall given some proofe of his assertion , his ingenuity had been commendable . yet we say , that god did not at all intend to leave men in this state . for the terme , men in this place being indefinite , it is capable of truth either way . and this author defines not whether he speaks of some or of all . we willingly grant , he doth not leave his elect in that woefull state , but brings them out of it by faith and repentance ; which are expressely called the gifts of god , in holy scripture . but as for reprobates , i doe not find he gives either faith or repentance unto them . and austin lib. . contra julian . pelag. cap. . speaking of the non praedestinati : illorum neminem ( saith he ) adducit deus ad salubrem spiritualemque paenitentiam , quâ homo reconciliatur deo in christo , sive illis ampliorem patientiam , sive non imparem praebeat : and if not unto repentance , then certainly neither doth he bring any of them unto faith . then againe , it were worth the knowing of this author , whether any infants of turkes and saracens departing this life in their infancy , are left in this woefull estate . if none are left but all are saved , is it not a pretty guilt of eternall death , for which not any suffers ? and you may guesse by this whether this authors pretence of acknowledgement of naturall corruption be not only from the teeth outward : if any heathen infants dying in their infancy , are left in this wofull estate , and suffer eternall death for that naturall corruption , let this author answer , whether god intended to leave them in this woefull estate absolutely or no. for i professe willingly , i cannot imagine how god should intend this concerning such infants and not absolutely , seeing before they come to the use of reason , there is no place for divine foresight of any thing in them , to put a difference between some and others . ii. the discourse it selfe , consisting of . motives inducing , . arguments convincing . . motives inducing . discourse . sect . i. the reasons of the first sort are these foure which follow . . the novelty of it . i can not find absolute and inevitable reprobation to have any footing in antiquity . the upper way was never taught or approved by any of the fathers ( even the stourest defenders of grace among them against the pelagians ) for the space of years after christ : nor the lower way till the time of s. austin , which was above years after him . they did all generally agree upon the contrary conclusion , and taught men in their times , that it was possible for them to be saved , which in the event were not saved , and to have repented which repented not , and that there was no decree of god , which did lay a necessity of perishing upon any sonne of adam . this that i say m. calvin himselfe doth ingeniously acknowledge , speaking of election , and reprobation , according to gods foreknowledge , neque haec vulgo recepta opinio solius vulgi est , habuit enim saeculis omnibu magnes authores ; the opinion of a conditionall decree hath had great authors in all ages . reverend beza speaking likewise of the same opinion , speaks to the same effect in these words ; in quem errorem sanè turpissimum . origenes veteres plerosque tum graecos , tum latinos adegit , into which most foule errour origen drew many of the ancients both greeks and latines . but prosper amongst the rest s. austins scholler doth very cleerly witnesse it , pen è omnium ( saith he ) parem inveniri & unam sententiam qua propositum est , praedestinationem dei secundum praescientiam receperunt , ut ob hoc deus alia vasa contumeliae ; alios honor is vasa fecerit , quia finem uniuscujusque praeviderit , & sub ipso gratiae adjutorio in qua futurus esset voluntate & actione praescierit . all did grant with one consent , that god decreed mens ends according to his foresight of their actions , not otherwise . to these testimonies let me adde two or three particular instances for the farther clearing of the newnesse of it . minutius faelix brings in the pagans objecting to the christians , that they hold an inevitable event of things , and did feigne and frame to themselves an unjust god , who did punish in men their unavoidable destinies , and not their ill choyces in these words . quicquid agitis ut alii fato , ita vos deo additis : iniquum igitur deum fingitis , qui sortem in hominibus puniat , non voluntatem . the objection he thus answers . illud fatum est quod de unoquoque deus fatus est . christians hold no other fates then gods decrees , qui cum universam praescit materiam pro meritis & qualitatibus singulorum etiam fata determinat ; & ita in nobis non genitura plectitur , sed ingenii natura punitur . god that foreknew all men and their actions did accordingly determine their retributions . s. hierome an eager opposer of the pelagians in many places of his writings hath the same thing : ex praescientiâ dei evenit ut quem justum futurum scit prius diligat quam oriatur ex utero & quem peccatorem aderit antequam peccet . to the same purpose he speaks in another place , dilectio & odium dei vel ex praescientiâ nascitur futurorum , vel ex operibus , alioqui novimus quod omnia deus diligat , nec quicquam eorum oderit , quae creavit . and in his book against pelagius he saith , elegit deus quem bonum cernit . the summe of all which speaks is but this , that there is no decree of damning or of saving men , but what is built upon gods foreknowledge of the evill and good actions of men . i will shut up my instances with the judgement of the councell of arles against the pelagians in the yeare . or thereabout . this councell subscribed to the letter which was written by faustus against lucidus the praedestinarian , and made the anathema's and curses which he therein denounceth against him and such like , to be their own ; some of which were these , anathema illi qui dixerit , illum qui peri it non accepisse ut salvus esse possit , and againe , anathema illi qui dixerit , quòd vas contumliae non possit assurgere ut sit vas in honerem . by this and the like speeches which i have met with in the ancients being convinced , that the doctrine of absolute reprobation ( and election too ) was unknown unto them , i begin to call it into question . for albeit i make not the decisions and determinations of the fathers or councells the rules of my faith ( because they are but men and therefore subject unto errour ) yet i honour their gray haires , and their grave assemblies , and doe vehemently mistrust those doctrines which they never approved or taught , but disliked and condemned . twisse consideration . as touching the pretence of antiquity ; i find many are very apt to make plausible use of this , when either indeed , or at least in their imagination , it seems to serve their turnes . and because i am put upon it , i will speak somewhat of it in generall , and then proceed to consider it as it is appyable to the present occasion . as concerning the first , i find no small equivocation in the word ancient : for if we compare an ancient man with a younger , in all probability the ancient is likely to be more wise then the other ; because he hath more experience , by reason of the length of his daies , according to that of job . . . amongst the ancient is wisdome , and in length of daies is understanding . but this holds not of that which is ancient , as it signifies that which goes before another . for it is well known , that youth goeth before old age ; yet no man will say , that the opinions of men in their youth , are more likely to be sound , then the opinions of riper age . neither doth any man call or account youth antiquity . yet our fathers we call our ancients , because they have gone before us , but little reason there is in my judgement , to count their faith the more sound by reason of such antiquity ; no more then why the opinions of man in his youth , should be reputed more sound , then the opinions of his age . for as there is a youth in man ; so there is to be acknowledged a youth of the world ; and so likewise of the christian world , even of the church of god. the holy ghost speaks in this language . for even they who were the great ancestors of the jews in the daies of jeremy , are called the youth of israell , as the youth of gods church . jerem. . . i remember thee with the kindnesse of thy youth , and the love of thy marriage , when thou wentst after me in the wildernesse , in a land that was not sowen . israel was as a thing hallowed unto the lord , &c ezech. . . i will remember my covenant made with thee in the daies of thy youth . in like sort the ancients counting them immediately from the apostles daies , are the very youth of the church christian . now like as it is not to be exspected that a man should have as great perfection of knowledge in his youth , as in his age ; so neither is it to be supposed , that the church of christ should have as great perfection of knowledge in her youth as in her age . this is to be understood caeteris paribus ; otherwise there lies a double exception against it : the one in the way of gods extraordinary mercy , the other in the way of gods extraordinary judgement . for god may extraordinarily inspire a young man with the spirit of prophecy , and so make him wiser then the aged . such was the condition of gods exuberant grace in the daies of the apostles , enduing them with power from on high , not only to instruct them with all spirituall wisdome and understanding in the mysteries of the gospell , but enabling them also to expresse it in diverse languages , that so they might be able ministers of christ , to carry the glad tidings of salvation over all the world. on the other side , the sinnes of the christian world not embracing gods truth with love , may deserve at the hands of god , that he should give them over to illusions to believe lies . then no marvaile if our former light set in obscure darknesse , and degenerate daies come in place of better and more noble times ; which may more easily come to passe , considering that the light of the gospell is a spirituall light of faith , no naturall light of reason ; though even this naturall light of reason comes to be amended and perfected by that light of grace . but it may be said , that they who lived neer the apostles daies , are like to be better acquainted with the truth of god then wee . i have found some to please themselves in this conceit , and it runns smooth and glibb , and it seems very plausible to winne approbation . but as austin saith of some things , that acutule sonant , but discussa reperiuntur obtusa : so many times it falls out , that reasons plausible at first , when exploration comes , prove very unsound ; like the fruit solinus writes of , which grew about sodome , faire to the eye , but being crushed in cineres abeunt & vanam fuliginem . and for the discovering of the emptinesse of this reason , i proceed thus . when you say of those ancients , that they were neer to the apostles . i demand whether the meaning be , they were neer to the times of the apostles , or neer to the persons of the apostles , or neer to the word of the apostles . the former two , doe nothing at all conduce to the perfection of christian knowledge , or soundnesse of faith . for certainly both jews and heathens professed enemies to the crosse of christ were as neer to their times and persons as believing christians , but they were not so familiarly acquainted with their word . but as touching familiar acquaintance with the word of the apostles ; as also the embracing of it by faith : nothing i trust hindereth us from being as neer to the apostles , as the ancients were . nay it is well known , that as touching divers peeces of the books of the new testament , we receive them for canonicall , which many of the ancients doubted of . and as touching divers books concerning the times of the old testament , they are discovered unto us to be apocryphall , which to many of the ancients were not . but it may be said , that these ancients to whom they pretend so much reverence ( which indeed is but reverence to themselves , and to serve their own turnes ) were so neer to the apostles , that they not only were partakers of their writings , but of their preaching also by word of mouth ? to this i answer . . that it is a very rare thing to meet with any such now adaies , unlesse it be some counterfeit author : neither doe i find any such alleadged by any , least of all by any arminian , who yet upon my knowledge doe discourse after this manner , as touching their neernesse to the apostles . . but suppose there were any such , and they should tell us what they heard preached by the apostles , shall we take their relations for oracles , and make the word of god to consist , partly of that which is written by them , and partly of that which is not written , but delivered by word of mouth , and commended unto us by tradition ? then farewell the doctrine of protestants concerning the rule of faith , that it is only the written-word ; and let us with the papists , joyne thereunto traditions to make up a compleat rule of faith. it may be farther said , that by reason of their neernesse to the apostles , they may be better acquainted with the meaning of the word written . to which i answer ; if so , then either from the apostles own mouthes , or by relation from others . of any that report what they heard from the apostles own mouths , they alleadge none . if they did , what were this other then to bring in tradition to be a rule , if not of faith , yet of interpretation of gods word , which is as foule every way as the former , considering that soundnesse of faith , is grounded upon the soundnesse of interpretation of gods word . if only by relation from others , the same exceptions lye against this and over and above , this must be of somewhat farre lesse authority then the former : it being so difficult a matter to report from another without adding somewhat of his own , whether it be much or little , as chaucer speaketh . lastly , let the commentaries of these daies , be compared with the commentaries of the ancients , and let the indifferent reader judge , which of them are most true , most learned , most substantiall . so that i suppose , i may be bold to conclude , that this reason drawn from the neernesse of the ancients to the apostles , how plausible soever it seems at first sight , yet indeed is of no force . now to the contrary we have these reasons . . like as it is fit every man should profit in the knowledge of god more and more , as long as he lives : so in all likelihood , the christian world doth profit more and more , as they draw neerer to the end of the world , excepting those times of gods judgements in giving the world over to illusions to believe lies . austin did profit , as in other points of christian knowledge , so in this as concerning predestination , and blames the massilienses for not profiting with him . de praedestin . lib. . cap. . videtis quid tunc de fidei & operibus sentiebam , quamvis de commendandâ dei gratiâ labor arem ; in qua sententia istos fratres nostros esse nunc video : quia non ficut legere libros meos , ita curaverunt proficere mecum . . we have more means and helps for our furtherance in christian knowledge , then they had , and that in divers respects . first , because we enjoy their labours , they enjoyed not ours , nor the like before them . so that by the reading of their writings we soon attain to that knowledge which they had , they communicating it unto us ; and it were very strange we should adde nothing thereunto ; especially considering that veritas was wont to be accounted temporis filia : and aristotle accounts it an easy thing to adde ; any man saith he may doe that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and thus , saith he , arts come to their perfection 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a tall man is able to discover much farther then a dwarfe , but let a dwarfe be advanced upon the shoulders of that tall man , and he will discover much farther then he . let then those antients goe for tall fellowes in the discovery of christian truth , let the divines of moderne ages be but dwarfes , as the children of israel seemed to be , but grashoppers in comparison of the canaanites , especially to the sonnes of anack ; yet if by their pious labours and industries , which they have with much ingenuity communicated unto us , they suffer us to get upon their shoulders , shall not we though dwarfes , be enabled hereby to discover somewhat more then they ? the eagle is a fowle of great strength and soareth high , the highest of all kites and haukes , yet let her carry a wren along with her on her shoulders in her aëriall ascentions , when she is weary and can fly no higher , can it seem strange , if the wren carried thus high by this anakim of fowles , presumes of her own strengh to fly a little higher then she ? or is this any glory to the wren , or disparagement to the eagle ? . secondly have not we better helpes of art then they , especially as touching the knowledge of the tongues , and logicall resolutions of the text. the latine fathers most of them were little acquainted with the greek ; neither latine nor greek fathers were usually much acquainted with the hebrew : origen amongst the greek , and hierom amongst the latine , had not their fellows for this . . lastly , the ancients in their daies were not so put unto it as the latter ; nothing did more quicken them , or doth us , then contentions with heretiques . and therefore look how they were exercised with heresies , so it is to be expected they were best seen in those articles of faith , which were most shaken by heretiques . this both austin and gregory take notice of ; and austin is most frequent herein , some passages to this purpose i shall relate hereafter . now before pelagius his daies , the fathers were much exercised in opposing the manichees , and accordingly gave themselves to the maintenance of free-will , as aniarius observes by the relation of sixtus senensis . but pelagius was the first that opposed gods grace ; and therefore those fathers that contended with him , gave themselves chiefely to the maintenance of gods grace . and now am i come to the treating of ancients no longer in generall , but in a speciall reference to the doctrine of predestination . now herein the papists themselves ( who in other points labour to beat us down with nothing so much as with the noise of antiquity ) are willing to confesse that in the point of grace and predestination we need not trouble our selves , with inquiry after the doctrine of the ancients before pelagius rose , and that upon the ground before mentioned , to wit , because they were nothing exercised hereabouts . as for example bellarmine , de grat. & lib. arbitr . lib. . c. . having proposed diverse passages of the fathers favouring , as it seemed , the doctrine wherewith pelagius troubled the peace of gods church , makes austin to answer for him , veteres patres qui ante pelagium floruerunt , quaestionem istam nunquam accuratè tractasse , sed incidentèr solum , & quasi per transitum illam attigisse . addit verò ( saith bellarmine ) in fundamento hujus sententiae , quod est , gratiam dei non praevenire ab ullo opere nostro , sed contrà ab illâ omnia opera nostra praeveniri , ita ut nihil omnino boni quod attinet ad salutem sit in nobis , quod non sit nobis ex deo , convenire catholicos omnes & ibidem citat cyprianum , ambrosisium & nazianzenum : yet he takes a course to reconcile them to the truth ; so doth sixtus senensis bibl. sanct. lib. . annota . . so doth alvarez . de auxil . lib. . disp . . again consider . the decrees of predestination and reprobation are secret , neither doe they appeare of what condition they are , but by the manner of their executions . now their executions doe consist partly in bestowing salvation on some , and inflicting damnation on others ; partly in bestowing the grace of faith and repentance on some , and denying it unto others . as touching salvation and damnation we willingly professe , that the salvation of men of ripe years , doth alwaies presuppose faith and perseverance therein ; and the damnation of others doth alwaies presuppose finall perseverance in sinne unrepented of . but we deny that herehence it followeth , that either faith precedes the decree of salvation , or sinne precedes the decree of damnation , or the prescience of either . that faith cannot precede election , nor sinne reprobation , is evident ; for as much as election and reprobation are eternall , but faith and sinne are things temporall : but that wich is temporall cannot precede that which is eternall . neither doth it follow , that because faith precedes salvation , therefore faith precedes the decree of salvation . for it is faith existent in time that precedes salvation ; but no divine will say that faith existent in time , precedes gods decree of salvation , unlesse it be some such as maintaine with vorstius , that gods decrees are not eternall . in like sort , it is sinne existent in time , that precedes damnation ; but no wise divine will say , that sinne existent in time precedes gods decree of damnation ; the former being a thing temporall but this decree eternall . lastly , neither will it follow that because faith precedes salvation and sinne damnation , therefore the foresight of faith , is antecedanious to the decree of salvation , and the foresight of sinne is antecedent to the decree of damnation . for no enthymeme of this nature is sound , but so farre forth as it is reducible into a good categorical syllogisme , whereof these enthymems are uncapable . for enthymems reducible unto good syllogismes must agree , either in their subjects or in their predicates , but these doe not . again all the termes in a good enthymeme must be expressed in that syllogisme whereunto it is reduced ▪ but each of these enthymemes consisteth manifestly of four termes ; as in the first , the●e , faith , and the foresight of faith , salvation and the decree of salvation ; of the second , these , sinne , and foresight of sinne , damnation and the decree of damnation ; and consequently that syllogisme whereunto either of these quaternary of termes is clap'd , cannot be good ; for no categoricall syllogisme is good that consisteth of foure termes . as for the reducing of them into a syllogisme hypotheticall , such reductions were never heard of in the schooles of the learned and that for just reason ; because that is no course to justify the soundnesse of the enthymemes , but a meer begging of that which is in question . as in case a man should reduce it thus ; if faith be precedanious to salvation , then the foresight of faith is precedanious to the decree of salvation ; but faith is precedanious to salvation , therefore it is precedanious to the decree of salvation . in this hypotheticall syllogisme , the consequence of the major is the very enthymeme which is in question , for the substance of it and consequently no proving of it , but a meere begging of it . yet notwithstanding we doe not deny , but that god did decree that no man should be saved , but such as being of ripe years , should be found to persevere in faith unto death none should be damned , but such as should be found finally to persevere in sinne . the other execution of these decrees consists ( as i said ) in the bestowing of the grace of faith and repentance on some , and denying it unto others . now the question is , whether god be indeed the author of faith and repentance , yea , or no ; and because the arminians dare not professedly deny this . ( though lately they are come so farre as professedly to deny that christ merited it ) therefore let the question proceede about the manner how god bestowes it , as namely , whether he bestowes it of his meer pleasure on some , denying it to others , or , whether the reason why god bestowes it on some and not on others , be , because god findes some good work in one , which he findes not in another . this question being decided , it will clearly appeare , whether predestination proceeds upon the foresight of ought in man , yea or no. for if god of his meer pleasure doth bestow faith on one , and not on another , it followes undeniably , that god predestinated him hereunto absolutely , and of his meer pleasure , without consideration of any future work of man. but if god bestowes faith on man upon consideration of some precedent work of his , which was not the work of god , then ( and not otherwise neither ) it will follow , that upon the consideration of that future work of man , god did elect him unto faith , or predestinate faith unto him . so that if we desire sincerely and ingeniously to inquire what was the opinion of the ancients about the absolutenesse of predestination , we should state the question as touching predestination unto faith , and not as touching predestination unto salvation . for we all confesse that god predestinated no man unto salvation , but such as he foresaw , coming unto ripe years , would believe sooner or later . and therefore the main question between the remonstrants and contra-remonstrants was , whether this decree were the whole decree of predestination , and whether there were not another decree of predestination besides , as namely , whether god did not decree to bestow faith on some , and deny it unto others . and secondly to inquire , whether this decree of bestowing faith on some , did not proceed according to gods good pleasure , without consideration of any different work in man. and the most compendious resolution hereof , is to inquire of the manner how god carrieth himselfe in the bestowing of faith and repentance on some , and denying it unto others ; as namely , whether on his meer pleasure he hath not mercy on some , giving them faith and repentance , and of his meer pleasure , denyes the gift of faith and repentance unto others . now let the fathers , ( whosoever thinks good ) be admitted to bring in their suffrages on this article , and remember what was decreed in the first synode that was gathered , to make peace in the church after pelagius had disturbed it , namely , gratiam non dari secundum merita , that is , as bellarmine acknowledgeth , gratiam non dari secundum opera . lastly , all of us now a daies consent , as touching gods concourse to the substance of every act of the creature whether good or evill . now let this author or any other , represent unto us , what footing he finds in antiquity concerning this . but i come to answer particularly , according to this authors text . he cannot find absolute and inevitable reprobation to have any footing in antiquity . belike he can find reprobation evitable ; a strange phraise either way . these attributes applied to damnation doe carry a faire sense with them , damnation being a work of god wrought in time , and undoubtedly may be avoided , may be incurred for the time to come . but reprobation is eternall as god himselfe , and how that should be fancied to be of an avoidable condition for the time to come , i cannot comprehend , unlesse this author be of their opinion , who desire to shape gods decrees of a revocable nature , as being both to impute unto him an impotent immutability , as some are pleased to phraise it . but leave we reprobation unavoidable , take we the absolute nature of it into consideration : this he cannot find in all antiquity . but consider i pray , he pretends these motives , as inducements to change his former opinion : so then belike , he stood sometimes for reprobation absolute ; but did he find any footing in antiquity for it , what time he embraced it ? if he did formerly embrace it , notwithstanding he found no footing in antiquity for it , why should he now relinquish it , for finding no footing in antiquity for it ? belike the older he waxeth , the more he groweth in love with antiquity . again when formerly he did embrace the doctrine of absolute reprobation , upon what grounds did he embrace it ? was it because he was in hope he should hereafter find antiquity for it ? or was it only for the authority of them who brought him up in this opinion ? what sorry grounds are these to build a mans faith upon ? yet this is not our course to impose articles of faith on any , but rather to endoctrinate them out of the word of god. if then a mans christian faith be built upon the word of god , is it a christian course to renounce it , or to question the integrity of it , because he finds no footing in antiquity for it ? what then shall become of the faith of laicks , and such as are unlearned ? must the writings of the fathers be translated into all vulgar languages , and the unlearned addict themselves to the study of them , least otherwise their faith prove a wavering faith , for want of finding antiquity to favour it ? belike the writings of the prophets and apostles , are no part of antiquity , in this authors more mature judgement . but if formerly the doctrine of absolute reprobation were received upon the evidence of gods word , as it is fit the faith of every christian should be grounded thereupon , especially the faith of a divine called to be a teacher of others ; i should think there were no just cause of alteration , but upon discovery of the errour of those grounds , whereupon formerly it was builded ; and the discovery hereof alone , were chiefly to the present purpose , namely to shew just cause of change of mind , & alteration of judgement , but no such course doe i find taken here . these motives and reasons here proposed , may carry a shew of reason , why a man being yet to chuse his faith in these particulars , possessed with neither way , but indifferent , might preferre one way before another , one opinion before another , but nothing sufficient to justify a change , unlesse the weaknesse of former grounds be laid open . for it may be that the former grounds might be such as upon due comparison would be found to overweigh these pretences . for upon view that i have taken of the discourse following , i find not one argument drawn from those places of scripture that treat of election and reprobation ; these i find are purposely declined as so many rocks , as if the author feared to make shipwrack of his errours ( pardon my boldnesse in so naming them , austin is my precedent in this saying , hoc scio contra istam praedestinationem quam secundum scripturas defendimus , neminem nisi errando disputare posse ) but in the mean time while he fears to make shipwrack of his errours , let him take heed least he make shipwrack of a good conscience . but proceed we with him about the inquiry what footing this doctrine finds in antiquity . he saith he cannot find it ; but it is more then i find that ever he made any convenient search after it , his whole discourse hereupon is of so hungry a nature . the absolutenesse of election and reprobation , we conclude in christian reason from gods absolute carriage in giving and denying grace , understanding thereby the grace of regeneration . now the absolutenesse herein , as we suppose , consists in bestowing this grace on some , and denying it to others , according to the meer pleasure of the lords will. now hath not the apostle ( more ancient then all the antiquity he speaketh of ) professed in expresse termes , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ? what need we seek farther amongst the ancients for the iustification of this ? and that mercy here is meant , such a mercy in bestowing faith on some , which is denied to others , in converting the wills of some unto good , when others are not converted , i could prove by variety of places out of austin , whose authority in this case is farre more worthy , then all the authority this author produceth . neither is this the voyce of austin only , but of ambrose also in that famous saying of his quem vult religiosum , facit , so much magnified by austin . and not ambrose alone , but nazianzen also , and cyprian are alleaged by him , as concurring with him in the foundation of the doctrine of predestination , which he makes to be the freedome of gods grace in converting whom he will. and which is farre more then this , yea farre more then all that can be produced to the contrary , by the very prayers of the church every where in use , he iustifies the generall concurrence in that which he accounts the foundation of predestination . as when their common course was to pray unto god , that he would be pleased to convert unto the faith of christ the hearts of heathens ; and wherein did this conversion consist , but in giving them faith and repentance : manifestly giving us to understand thereby , that the whole catholique church did concurre in this article of faith , that it was in the power of god according to his free grace , to convert whom he would unto the faith of christ , and consequently not to convert whom he would . for if there were any cause on mans part , why he doth not convert some converting others , then there were also on mans part , a cause why god doth convert some not converting others , and consequently grace should be given according unto works , that is in the phrase of the ancients , gratiam dari secundum merita ( as bellarmine acknowledgeth ) which was ever accounted expresse pelagianisme , and was as expressely condemned in the councel of palestina above years agoe , and pelagius himselfe was driven to subscribe unto it , by shamefull dissimulation so to prevent anathematization of his own person . but the upper way ( saith this author ) was never taught or approved by any of the fathers for years . here breaks forth another reason of this authors ( or his that directed him ) cunning carriage in distinguishing the two waies of our divines in maintaining the absolutenesse of election and reprobation , to wit , that in the course of his discourse he might serve his turne with both , and where antiquity served not his turne against the one , yet might it serve his turne , as he thought against the other . but the truth is , there was no such question at all ventilated in those daies , as touching the obiect of predestination , no nor in austins neither , nor many hundred years after , that i know . and no marvell ; for it concernes the ordering of gods decree aright , which is meerly logicall , as i have shewed in my vind. grat. dei. it s true that s t austin doth usually accommodate that of s t paul , rom. . . concerning the masse , unto mankind considered in massa damnata as he commonly calls it , that is , in the corrupt masse ; but not alwaies , but sometimes he speaks of it , and accommodates it cleerely unto the masse of mankind uncorrupt , yea , as yet not created , as there i have shewed . and as for the right ordering of gods decrees , and the right stating of the object of predestination and reprobation , we desire no better , nor other ground then that of the apostle , god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth , that is , he cures infidelity and hardnes of heart in whom he will , by bestowing faith and repentance upon them , and leaves it uncured in whom he will by denying faith and repentance unto them . and as for the rigour of this tenent ( as it is commonly accounted ) of making the masse of mankind not created the object of predestination , i have already shewed the vanity of that conceit and denomination ; for as much as hereby neither is the decree of damnation made to precede the consideration of sinne , no nor of finall impenitency in any moment of nature , nor in any moment of nature is the decree of salvation made by mee , to precede the consideration of finall perseverance in faith and repentance . but whereas some , who are most rigid indeed in their discourse , make the decree of saving some and damning others to precede the decree of creating and permitting of sinne both originall and actuall ; others who are most dissolute , make the decree of creating and permitting of sinne , to precede the decree of saving some and damning others , my opinion is equally removed from these extreames , and conceives none of these decrees to be either way subordinate , but all coordinate and simultaneous , as being decrees only of various means , tending to one and the same end ; thus god doth decree both to create some , and to permit to sinne , and finally to persevere therein , and to damne them for their sinne , to the manifestation of his glory in the way of justice vindicative . on the other side , god doth decree to create others , and permit them to sinne , and raise them out of sinne by faith and repentance , and reward them with everlasting life , to the manifestation of his glory , in the way of mercy mixed with justice . farther consider that as touching predestination it selfe , there was no question moved thereabouts in the church of god , before the daies of pelagius ; and what credit can they get , who consult with them in such points , wherein they were not exercised . for we find by experience , that to contend with heretiques hath been an ordinary means in the course of gods providence , for the more diligent inquisition after the truth of god and happy discovery thereof . sancta ecclesia ( saith gregory ) in suâ semper eruditione instruitur , dum haereticorum quaestionibus impugnatur . and austin in like manner , didiscimus , saith he , singulas quasque haereses intulisse ecclesiae proprias quaestiones , contra quas diligentius defenderetur scriptura divina , quam si nulla talis necessitas cogeret . and on the other side , before question hath been moved on a poynt , the fathers have delivered themselves somewhat improvidently , whereupon heretiques have taken advantage to countenance their errours by the writings of the ancient . this hierome observes in the poynt of arrianisme , proving thereby , that the ancient writers before the arrian heresy arose , were no competent judges in that poynt . si me causas vitiorum ( saith he ) in patrum scriptis nescire respondero non statim illos haereticos judicabo . fieri enim potest ut vel simpliciter erraverint , vel alio sensu scripserint , vel a librariis imperitis eorum paulatim scripta corrupta sunt , vel certè antequam in alexandriâ quasi daemonium meridianum arrius nasceretur . innocenter quaedam & minus cautè locuti sunt & quae non possunt perversorum hominum calumniam declinare . marke it well , before arrius like a devill from the south rose up , the fathers delivered some things innocently , yet lese warily , and such as cannot avoid the calumny of perverse persons . upon the same ground it is , that austin excuseth ticonius , and that in the same particular wherein he approached neere to pelagianisme , to wit , before the church of god was acquainted with that heresy ; his words are these , sed non erat expertus hanc haeresin ticonius quae nostro tempore exorta multum nos , ut gratia dei quae per dominum nostrum jesum christum est adversus eos defenderemus , exercuit ; & secundum id quod ait apostolus , oportet haereses esse ut probati manifesti fiant in vobis , multò vigilantiores diligentioresque reddidit : ut advérteremus in scripturis sanctis , quod istum ticonium minús attentum , minusque sine hoste sollicitum , fugit , etiam ipsam scilicet fidem donum illius ese , qui ejus mensuram unicuique partitur . ticonius considered not that faith it selfe is the gift of god , neither was he so carefull to look into the truth of this ; and why ? surely because he had no enemy to put him to it , as being not acquainted with the errour of pelagius . but this heresy , saith he , arising in our daies , hath put us upon the defence of the grace of god , which is given us through our lord jesus christ , and hath made us more watchfull and diligent to observe , that even faith it selfe is his gift , who distributes to every one a measure thereof . hence it is that the same austin , when prosper signified that those of marseiles would rest contented if he could make good the opinion which he maintained in the point of predestination , out of the writings of the former , and more ancient divines , returnes for answer , that there was no need hereof , considering that they living before this heresy was known , ( to wit , of pelagius ) were not at all put upon the discussing of this question , which surely they would have done , had they been constrained to make answer to any such as the pelagians were . see his own words , si hujus sententiae defensionem ex divinorum eloquiorum nos praecedentibus catholicis tractatoribus promerem , profectò hi fratres quibuscum nos agimus , acquiescerent . hoc enim significastis literis vestris . this was prosper's motion ; now mark austin's answer . quid igitur opus est ut eorum scrutemur opuscula , qui priusquam ista haeresis oriretur , non habueruni necessitatem in hac difficili ad solvendum quaestione versari , quod proculdubio facerent , si respondere talibus cogerentur . charity did suggest unto him , this would have been their course , had they been exercised with pelagius , as he was . for it was his own case . for there was a time when himselfe thought that albeit holinesse and good works consequent to faith together with salvation , were the work of god , yet faith it selfe he conceived to be the work of man ; to wit , before he was exercised with pelagius as appears , liber propositionum ex epistolâ and romanos . non ergo elegit deus opera cujusque in praescientiâ , sed fidem elegit in praescientiâ , vel quem sibi crediturum esse praescivit , ipsum elegit cui spiritum sanctum daret , ut bona operando eriam vitam aeternam consequeretur . for he professeth in the words following that he then conceived , nostrum esse credere , to believe was a work of our own . afterwards he retracteth this , retract . lib. . cap. . professing , i had never said this , had i known faith it selfe to be the gift of god , si scivissem fidem ipsam inter dei munera quae dantur per spiritum sanctum reperiri . nam quamvis credere & operari utrumque nostrum sit propter liberum voluntatis arbitrium & quae non nisi volentibus nobis fiunt , utrumque dei donum est qui & credere , & velle , & perficere subministrat . the papists themselves , notwithstanding the great devotion they pretend towards the ancients , yet are driven to devise what may be said to excuse them ; as in the very point of free-will they desire to excuse chrysostome . sixtus senensis , biblioth●● . lib. . annotat . . uel dicendum est sicut etiam annianus in praefatione commentariorum chryjostomi in math. annotavit chrysostomum interdum naturae nostrae vires plus aequo extulisse ex contentione disceptandi cum manichaeis & gentilibus , qui hominem asserebant vel naturâ malum vel fati violentia ad peccandum compelli . nay what think we of vossius himselfe , from whose labours it is , and nothing of their own , that our arminians would seem to breath so much antiquity . this vossius professeth , they mistake him that taketh him to be of any other opinion in the poynt of predestination , then austin was of . de historicis lat. lib. . cap. . yet doth he acknowledge that austin did reject the opinion of the ancients both greeks and latines who went before him , in the point of predestination . histor . pelag. pag. . patres graeci & latinorum illi qui ante augustinum vixerunt , ipseque aliquandiu augustinus , verba apostoli interpretari solent de electione quorundam ad salutem secundum fidem & pietatem praevisam ; & aliorum reprobatione aeterna ob praescientiam malorum operum quae in vita acturi essent . sed augustinus ( here comes in the adversative ) rejectâ hâc opinione existimabat apostolorum loqui de quorundam electione ad vitam , aliorum item praeteritione , non habitâ vel in his vel in illis ratione , sive bonorum , sive etiam malorum quae personalia forent . and which is more then this , pag. . professeth a third interpretation of that passage rom. . , , . differing both from austins interpretation , and from that of the fathers greeke and latine that went before him , and makes it disputable , which is truest , though this third opinion hath no footstep amongst the ancients , and thus he carrieth himselfe , notwithstanding all the pretence of his reverence of antiquity . and to vindicate austins interpretation , as well as the rest , from countenancing absolute reprobation , he calls in to help at a dead lift , the doctrine of the jesuits , concerning scientia media . and i desire upon no better termes to contend then this in scholasticall divinity , whether this doctrine be not a most unsober invention without all ground . and whereas vossius acknowledgeth austins opinion to be for the absolutenesse of election ( and he professeth himselfe to be of austins opinion . ) i dare appeale to any learned divines sober judgement , whether this doctrine of scientia media doth not equally justify the absolutenesse of reprobation , as the absolutenesse of election . yet after all this , i would not have any think , that i reject any of these ancient fathers , that seem to be most opposite to austins opinion in the point of predestination . i think they may be fairely and scholastically reconciled without acknowledging so much difference between them , as vossius maketh , and that by such an interpretation as sometimes is admitted by vossius himselfe , of his own phraise of his own distinction , though he dreames not of the applyable nature of the same to the will of god in predestination . his distinction is of voluntas dei antecedens , & voluntas consequens ; and this he makes equivalent to that other distinction of the will of god , to wit , absoluta & conditionalis . now this conditionall will of god he interprets not quoad actum volentis , but quoad res volitas : like as doctor jackson professeth in expresse termes , that the former distinction of voluntas antecedens & consequens , is to be interpreted , namely , quoad res volitas , and not quoad actum volentis . now according to this construction , there is no difference between them and austin , nor the least impediment to the making of the will of god , both in predestination and reprobation to be most absolute . for though sinne be acknowledged to be the cause of the will of god in reprobation quoad res volitas , that is , in respect of the punishment willed thereby , this hinders not the absolutenesse of reprobation quoad actum reprobantis . and unlesse we understand the fathers thus , we must necessarily charge them with such an opinion , whereof aquinas is bold to professe , that never any man was so madde as to affirme , to wit , that any merits should be the cause of predestination quoad actum praedestinantis . and why so ? to wit , because predestination is the act of gods will , and there can be no cause of gods will quoad actum volentis . now who seeth not that by the same reason there can be no cause of divine reprobation quoad actum reprobantis ; for even reprobation is the act of gods will , as well as predestination , and every way it must be as madde a thing to devise a cause of reprobation quoad actum reprobantis . they did all generally agree , saith this author , upon the contrary conclusion . now the contrary conclusion to absolute and unavoidable reprobation is to maintain conditionall and avoidable reprobation ; but this is not the contrary conclusion here specified by this author , but rather that damnation was avoydable , such is his loose discourse ; whereas there is no question at all concerning damnation , whether it be conditionall or absolute . we all confessing , that like as salvation is not ordained to befall any man of ripe years , but upon the performance of faith and repentance and finall perseverance therein ; so damnation is not ordained to be the portion of any , but upon their finall perseverance in sinne . in like sort as touching the possibility of salvation , not one divine of ours , that i know , denyes the possibility of any mans salvation while he lives in this world. doctor jackson indeed hath an opinion , that a man may proceed so farre in sinne in this life , that the doore of repentance may be shut upon him . wee have no such opinion ; we acknowledge , that as god calls some at the first houre , so may some be called at the last houre of the day , yea the thiefe upon the crosse , yea , inter pontem & fontem . in a word , we say plainly , that it is possible for any man at any time to be saved by grace giving repentance : without repentance none can be saved ; which is , i presume , without question between us . in like sort it is possible for any man to repent , provided that god be pleased to give him repentance , and whether god will give him repentance or no we know not . therefore the apostle instructs timothy after this manner , the servant of the lord must not strive , but must be gentle towards all men , apt to teach , suffering the evill , instructing them with meeknesse that be contrary minded , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if at any time god may give them repentance , that they may acknowledge the truth and come to amendment out of the snare of the devill , of whom they are taken prisoners to doe his will. here is clearely an acknowledgement of a possibility of repentance , sooner or later , but upon the gift of god , not otherwise . the contrary opinion whereunto , this author seemeth in this passage very strongly to savour of , but alleageth not one father for the proofe of it , to give us some document of his judicious carriage in the survey of the fathers which here he pretends to have been made by him , and that with very great ostentation ; yet i seem to be very well acquainted with the spirit that breatheth here ; and i wonder the passages of the ancients to this purpose ( which yet i am perswaded are nothing to the purpose ) are not collected out of doctor ushar's discourse in causa godaeschalci inscribed to gerardus vossius ; and i doubt not but the issue will be this , that god is ready to give all men repentance in case they performe somewhat ; and so the grace of repentance shall be given according to mens works , which was condemned years agoe in the synod of palestine , and ever since accounted no better then flat pelagianisme . and which is worse then this , as that which stands in opposition to common sense , they wil be driven to professe , that god is ready to give a reprobate repentance , in case he will repent , yea the very will to repent , in case he will repent . this desperate resolution i have already found by experience , and if i be not deceived , breathed by the very same spirit that breatheth heere . at length we are like to receive an account of this authors judicious survey of the ancients out of calvin and beza . neque haec vulgò recepta opinio solius vulgi est ; ( saith calvin ) habuit enim saeculis omnibus magnos authores . to this i answer , . that this is farre from justifying , that absolute reprobation , and absolute election had no footing in antiquity , that the upper way was never taught for the space of years , nor the lower way till the time of s t austin . though in all ages it had great authors to impugne it , yet it might also have in all ages as great authors to maintain it , and more too , for ought these words of calvin in his opinion doe manifest to the contrary . . albeit not some but all had maintained election and reprobation to proceed according to foreknowledge of mens works , yet this nothing hinders the absolutenesse either of election or reprobation . for consider , it is one thing to speak of election unto grace , another to speak of election unto glory ; one thing to speak of reprobation , as it signifies a purpose to deny grace , another thing to speak of it , as it signifies a purpose to inflict damnation . it was never known i think , that any maintained , that god upon the foresight of mens faith , did elect them unto faith , or purpose to give them faith ; or that god foreseeing men would not believe , nor repent , did decree that they should neither believe nor repent . upon which brainsick conceit our arminians are cast now a daies , and all the embracers of scientia media : but many of them professed indeed that god did decree to bestow salvation upon them whom he foresaw would finally persevere in faith and repentance ; and to damne those whom he foresaw would finally persevere in infidelity or impenitency . we acknowledge as much as they , but still the way is open to enquire of the order of these , namely , whether the foresight of faith and repentance were before the decree of salvation , or after it , or simultaneous with it : whether the foresight of infidelity and impenitency were before the decree of damnation , or after it , or simultaneous with it ; but where is any such question to be found amongst the ancients ? we willingly professe that god did not purpose to bestow eternall life on any of ripe years , but as a reward of their faith and repentance and good workes ; that god did not purpose to inflict damnation on any of ripe years , but as a condigne punishment of their finall infidelity and impenitency ; and the ancients who maintained that god decreed to save some and damne others , according to his prescience of the piety of the one , and impiety of the other , had no other meaning that i know , or this author is able to make good , or any other , as i am perswaded . . but let us farther enquire what those ancients thought concerning faith and repentance ; as whether they thought them to be the gifts of god , or no ; dares this author or any arminian deny , they maintained them to be the gifts of god , the scripture being so full and expresse for this ? secondly , enquire what their opinion was concerning the manner how god gave faith to one , and not to another , as 't is manifest he did not , he doth not give it to all ; as namely , whether it was of the meer pleasure of god , that he converted some , and not others ; or whether he bestowed faith on some , and not on others , because he found those some to have prepared themselves for the receiving of faith , not so others . if it was of the meer pleasure of god , it manifestly followeth , that election unto grace and reprobation from grace , was absolute : which is the main thing in question in these our daies . for we who are accounted most rigid herein , doe not affect to say , that god decreed to save whom he will , or to damne whom he will ; but to the contrary we say , god decreed to save none , but such as believe and repent , and to damne none , but such as dye in infidelity or impenitency : but we professe willingly , that god decreed to bestow faith and repentance on whom he would , and deny it to whom he would , the scripture being expresse , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . and austin is most frequent in this profession , and this is that grace which he acknowledgeth to be the foundation of predestination , and wherein both cyprian , and nazianzene , and ambrose did agree with him . and ambrose in speciall sort he magnifies for this profession . and calvin hereupon observes , that whereas the pelagians charged him , with differing from the ancients herein . valet augustini testimonium , saith he , apud eos , qui libenter in patrum authoritate acquiescunt . quanquam non patitur augustinus se a reliquis disjungi , sed claris testimoniis divortium hoc cujus invidia gravabant eum pelagiani , ostendit falsum esse . citat enim ex ambrosio ( lib. de praedestin . sanct . cap. . ) christus quem dignatur vocat ( here is the criticall point of this question concerning the absolutenesse of election and reprobation ) item si voluisset ex indevotis fecisset devotos . sed deus quos dignatur vocat , & quem vult religiosum facit . si ex augustino integrum volumen contexere libeat , lectoribus ostendere promptum esset mihi non nisi ejus verbis opus esse : sed eos prolixitate onerare nolo . this was calvins judgement , as touching the judgement of antiquity in this . . yet i confesse there was a time when austin did not conceive faith to be amongst the gifts of gods spirit , but being exercised with the pelagians , he came to acknowledge the speciall grace of god in this ; and hereupon made faith an effect of predestination , and not any precedent thereunto , and doubts not , but the fathers would have expressed as much , had they been exercised with the pelagians as he was ; for so much he signifies unto prosper as before i shewed , and withall shewes how in the foundation of predestination they agreed with him , in as much as they agreed in the nature of grace , acknowledging the conversion of the heart to be the gift of god ; and not they only , but the whole catholique church , as appeared by their common prayers , that god would convert the hearts of infidells ; and to say , that god doth not convert the hearts of men according to the meer pleasure of his will , but according to mens preparations , is clearly to maintaine that god gave grace according unto works , which doctrine was generally exploded as meer pelagianisme . . suppose they did all acknowledge the decree of election and reprobation , to be conditionall , yet if they interpreted this conditionally , not quoad actum volentis , but quoad res volitas , this is nothing opposite to the absolutenesse of election and reprobation quoad actum elegentis and reprobantis , but only quoad res volitas , to wit , salvation on the one side , and damnation on the other side . and we willingly acknowledge that god hath not ordained that salvation or damnation shall befall any man but in case they believe and repent , or refuse to believe , or repent . now that the ancients did in this manner understand voluntas conditionata in god , vossius himselfe ( upon whom our arminians doe most depend as touching the authority of the ancients ) doth improvidently , and ere he is a ware , confesse . hist . pelag. pag. . his words are these . aliqua absolutè vult & simpliciter : quomodo creare mundum voluit & extremo die volet resurrectionem carnis . de qua voluntate intelligi debet illud , psal . . . deus noster in coelo , quaecunque voluit facit . & apost . ad rom. . . voluntati ejus quis resistit ? aliqua item vult cum conditione quae idcirco in effectum non prodeunt nisi conditione impletâ : quomodo omnes homines salvari vult , sed per & propter christum fide apprehensum . atqui non omnes fide aphrehendunt christum , sed absque paenitentiâ ac fide plurimi de hoc mundo decedunt . quo respectu tales in aeternum statuit damnare . de conditionatâ illâ voluntate extant longè plurima apud veteres scriptores . aliqua hoc loco ascribemus . such indeed are beza's words upon that of the apostle , who hath given first unto god ? rom. . . est autem etiam hic locus ( saith he ) diligenter observandus adversus eos qui fidei , vel operum praevisionem faciunt electionis causam . in quem errorem sanc turpissimum . origenes veteres plerosque tum graecos tum latinos adegit donec ; tandem dominus augustinum per pelagianos ad hunc agnoscendum & corrigendum errorem excitaret . the first part this author conceales , it being by beza delivered as touching election ; and this author deales purposely on reprobation only . the latter part likewise he passeth by ; for beza confines this which he saith of the ancients to a certain time , namely , the time preceding the troubles raised by pelagius . but this author had rather it should runne at randome without any determination ; and then againe , the mentioning of austin raised by god upon occasion of pelagius his doctrine , to take notice of this errour , and correct it , he well saw was like enough to blast all the shew he makes of the ancients , especially considering how that pelagian faction was not by austin only , but by the catholique church of those daies beaten down . and it is well known how the writings of austin were countenanced , and how many councells of those daies , made decrees against the pelagian heresy . and for both these passages , it seems he was beholding to vossius in his pelagian history , lib. . thes . . which is this , graeci patres semper , patrum verò latinorum illi qui ante augustinum vixerunt , dicere solent , eos esse praedestinatos ad vitam , quos deus p●e recteque victuros praevidit , sive ut alii loquuntur quos praevidit credituros , & perseveraturos , &c. quod ita interpretatur ut praedestinatio ad gloriam facta dicitur , secundum praescientiam fidei & perseverantiae . and next unto some passages alleadged out of origen he brings in these two passages of beza and calvin . now it liked not this author to take his course to begin with clemens alexandrinus , and his scholler origen , as vossius doth : for albeit origen was a man for his learning of great authority in the church of god , in such sort that it was wont to be said , that origenis ingenium ecclesiae sacramentum , and no marvail if many followed him , and 't is usuall even with hierome in his commentaries to follow him . yet after his death , his writings were found at length to have a very ill savour in the catholique church . and amongst other foul opinions found in him , one nearly concerning this very particular we have in hand , was that which vossius there delivers in this manner , veterum multorum opinio est , putâsse eum animas corporibus vel praedestinatorum , vel reproborum uniri pro iis quae bene vel male egissent ante conditum corporeum hunc mundum . judge i pray whether here be not a sweet nosegay for the divill , as touching the foresight of works , not to come , but of works past before they were borne , and thereupon their soules united either to bodies predestinated unto life , or reprobated unto death . yet vossius would not have us think either origen deceived by clement ( which no man ever said that i know , neither doth vossius pretend any such thing ) or that chrysostome was deceived by them , or those that followed , by him , all this seems to be delivered only to crosse beza , who professed the greek and latine fathers were deceived by origen . yet it is well known of what estimation origen was in the church , none of the others like him , but what is his reason ? because forsooth ireneus lib. . cap. . professeth that god did destinate heaven to them that should believe ; and to them which should not believe , hell . but could he be ignorant that fulgentius professeth the selfe same , lib. . ad monimum ; namely , deum praedestinasse ad regnum quos ad se praescivit misericordiae praevenientis auxilio redituros , & in se misericordiae subsequentis auxilio esse mansuros . yet this very author in his preface professeth that fulgentius amongst others , albeit they maintained that god did destinate no others to salvation , then such as whom he foresaw by the pure gift of his grace , would have the beginnings of faith , and a good will , and persevere in good , yet notwithstanding they withall maintained , that this prescience divine of their faith and perseverance , did flow from gods absolute decree to save them . nay austin himselfe in joan. tract . . ( as hunnius and others alleage him , and i find it true ) hath these words of those of whom our saviour saith , therefore you heare not , because ye are not of god ; praecogniti erant quòd non fuerant credituri eâ fide quâ solâ possint a peccatorum obligatione liberari ; and afterwards saith , secundum hanc praedestinationem loquutus est dominus . but will it herehence follow that austin did deny absolute predestination ? vossius himselfe acknowledgeth the contrary of him , as well as of fulgentius , namely , that gods foreknowledge of perseverance in good , proceeded from gods absolute decree of saving them . and let every sober reader judge whether upon the same grounds it doth not follow , that gods foreknowledge of mans perseverance in infidelity , doth not likewise follow from gods absolute decree of reprobating him . for what is the ground of the former , but this , that god had absolutely decreed to give faith unto some ? now doth it not herehence follow , that god absolutely decreed to deny faith unto others ? for as ambrose saith , and as austin alleageth out of him , si voluisset ex indevotis fecisset devotos . yet am not i of vossius his opinion in this . i say rather , gods foreknowledge of one mans faith , proceeds from his decree not of saving him , but of giving him faith ; and gods foreknowledge of another mans finall perseverance in infidelity , proceeds from gods decree , not of damning him , but of denying him grace to cure his infidelity . and as for the decree of salvation , i deny it to be in any moment of nature , before the decree of giving grace ; in like sort , i deny the decree of damnation to be in any moment of nature before the decree of permitting mans infidelity to continue uncured unto the end . and the criticall question in this point consists in this , whether the granting of grace , or deniall of grace , be not meerely of the pleasure of god , and not according to any different dispositions in man ; by grace understanding grace effectuall to the working of faith and true repentance . and unlesse the ancients be shewed to have maintained , either that faith , and repentance , are not the gifts of god ; or , that if they be the gifts of god , that god dispenseth his effectuall grace for the working of them , not according to the meer pleasure of god , but according to the different dispositions of men ; all that they talke of the ancients in this point , is meerly vaine and to no purpose . but i come to prosper , whose relation , i doubt not , this author takes to be of greatest moment . now to this i answer . . to say that , penè omnium par invenitur & una sententia , qua propositum & praedestinationem dei secundum praescientiam receperunt , doth not prove that there is no footing amongst the ancients for absolute predestination . neither doth vossius alleage halfe so many fathers for this opinion , as were those bishops who joyned with cyprian in decreeing the rebaptization of hereticks . . this seems to be related by prosper , not so much out of his own opinion , as by way of an objection proposed by the massilienses , desiring austin to shew how it is to be answered . illud etiam ( saith he ) qualiter dilucitur quaesumus demonstres quod retractatis priorum hac de re opinionibus , penè omnium invenitur par & una sententia , &c. and this is farther evidenced by these words of prosper . obstinationem suam vetustate defendunt ut ea quae de epistolâ pauli romanis scribentis , ad manifestationem divinae gratiae praevenientis electorum merita proferuntur , a nullo unquam ecclesiasticorum ita esse intellecta ut nunc sentiuntur , affirment . . observe , when prosper urged them to expound those passages in s t paul , after what meaning they thought best , they forthwith professed ingeniously that they found nothing in the fathers that gave them content : their words related by prosper are these , nihil se invenisse quod placeret . . bellarmine , de grat. & liber . arbit . lib. . cap. . takes notice of this objection drawn out of prosper and answereth it , according unto austin in this manner , augustinus ipse in libr. de bono persev . cap. . dicit veteres patres , qui ante pelagium floruerunt , quaestionem istam nunquam acuratè tractasse sed incidenter solùm & quasi per transitum illam attigisse . addit verò in fundamento hujus sententiae quod est , gratiam dei non praeveniri ab ullo opere nostro ; sed contrà , ab illo omnia opera nostra praeveniri , ita ut nihil omninò boni quod attinet ad salutem , sit in nobis quod non sit nobis ex deo , convenire catholicos omnes ; & ibidem citat cyprianum , ambrosium , nazianzenum . so that it appears hereby , that austin did not acknowledge the former writers to have embraced this opinion , though the massilienses pretended so much . and herewithall he openeth unto us , a way how to conceive aright of their opinion in predestination ; namely , that as many as acknowledge gods grace preventing us in every good work , they all are to be accounted to agree with him in the doctrine of predestination . for it is apparent , that in the contrary doctrine pelagius grounded his opinion concerning predestination . and austin himselfe sometime thought that god , quem sibi crediturum esse praescivit , ipsum elegit , cui spiritum sanctum daret , ut bona operando vitam aeternam consequeretur : and why so ? because forsooth he at that time conceived it to be mans work to believe , which saith he , i had never said , had i known faith it selfe to have been amongst the gifts of the holy ghost . retract . lib. . cap. . and therefore de praedesti . sanct. cap. . in his answer to the letter of hilarius , mark what course austin takes for the justifying of his own doctrine concerning predestination . prius fidem quâ christiani sumus donum dei esse debemus ostendere . and bellarmine in the place above cited professeth , that austin did herehence rightly collect out of the fathers , gratuitae praedestinationis sententiam & fidem in ecclesiâ catholicâ semper fuisse . neque olim ( saith he ) defendi potest praedestinatio ex operibus praevisis , nisi aliquid boni ponatur in homine justo , quo discernatur ab impio quod non sit illi à deo ; quod sanè ( saith he ) patres omnes cum summâ consensione rejiciunt . in like sort , junius in his answer to baro for the justifying of gratuitous predestination , counts it sufficient to prove , fidem esse donum praedestinantis & miserentis dei ex praedestinatione ipsius . and adds saying , hoc omnes patres uno consensu ex christo & paulo agnoverunt . ipse justinus martyr apolog. . & alii . gravissimè verò clemens alexandrinus ( in hac alioqui palestrâ non ita exercitatus ) ut sequentia saecula . stromat . lib. . basilidis & valentimi dogma esse dicit , quod fides à naturâ sit . in my poor judgement , the fathers , as many as stated predestination according to the prescience of mens works , had no other meaning but this , that god did predestinate no man to eternall life , but such as coming to ripe years should believe in christ and repent ; no man unto eternall death , but such as should finally persevere in infidelity and impenitency ; so making works foreseen the cause of salvation , but not of gods decree . and aquinas was bold to professe that , nemo fuit it a insanae mentis qui diceret merita esse causam praedestinationis divinae quoad actum praedestinantis . and 't is a good rule that gerson gives , that holy mens writings are not to be urged precisely according to the letter , de vitâ spirituali animae sect. . co . . notet his quód doctores etiam sancti sunt magis reverenter glossandi in multis , quàm ampliandi : quoniam non omnes semper adverterunt , aut advertere cogitaverunt ad proprietatem locutionis . improprietas autem non ampliari debet , sed ad proprietatem reduci , alioquin quid mirum si augetur deceptio . . we know what answer austin himselfe makes unto this , de praedestin . sanct. cap. . quid igitur opus est ut eorum scrutemur opuscula , qui priusquam ista haeresis oriretur , non habuerunt necessitatem in hac difficili ad solvendum quaestione versari , quod proculdubio facerent si respondere talibus cogerentur . . as before i shewed , fulgentius himselfe maintaines predestination to be secundum praescientiam ; yet vossius acknowledgeth him as well as austin , to have maintained the absolutenesse of predestination . . lastly , this passage concerneth predestination alone , as it signifies the divine decree of conferring glory ; but who ever was known to maintaine the divine decree of conferring grace to have been secundum praescientiam , according to foresight of any work in man ? for this is plainly to maintain , that grace is given according unto works , which in the ancients phraise is all one , as to acknowledge , that grace is given according unto merits , which is direct pelagianisme , and condemned years agoe in the synod of palestine . as for that of minutius foelix , we deny that god doth , sortem in hominibus punire , non voluntatem . we doe not say , genitura plectitur ; we say that in every one who is punished by god , ingenii natura punitur ; wee confesse that fatum illud est quod de unoquoque deus fatus est ; and that pro meritis & singulorum qualitatibus , etiam fata determinat . yet the holy ghost professeth in the mouthes of all his apostles , that both herod , and pontius pilate , together with the gentiles , and people of israel , were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe that which gods hand , and gods councell predetermined to be done ; and yet this predetermination divine , i should think , was nothing prejudiciall to the liberty of their wills . as for hierome , this author saith that he was an eager opposer of the pelagians , but no where doth it appeare , that the point of predestination comes in question between them . these very passages out of hierome are proposed by grotius in his pietas ordinum hollandiae , and answered by gratianus civilis punctually , and long before by bellarmine lib. . de grat. & lib. arb . cap. . i answer , what is this any other , but that which the fathers many of them have professed in saying , that predestination is secundum praescientiam ; and doth not fulgentius affirm the same ? yet is he acknowledged by vossius , a maintainer of the absolutenesse of predestination as well as austin . did hierome deny faith to be the gift of god ? or granting it to be the gift of god , did he maintaine , that god gave it according unto works ? if not , but according to the meer pleasure of his will , having mercy on some , while he hardned others ; the case is cleare , that he maintained absolute election unto faith . as for gods decree of salvation and damnation , we willingly professe , that god decreed to save no man but upon his finall perseverance in faith and piety ; to damne none , but such as finally persevere in infidelity and impenitency . now compare we these decrees together , the decree of giving faith , and the decree of saving ; which of these are most likely to be the foremost ; it is apparent that salvation is more likely to be the end in respect of faith , and faith the means in respect of salvation , then the contrary . and the generall and most received rule of schooles is , that the intention of the end is before the intention of the means . i think the glory of god in the way of mercy , mixed with justice is the end of both ; and that the decrees of giving faith and salvation are simultaneous , as decrees of means tending to the same end , and so neither before the other . but hierome saith , that , ex praescientia futurorum nascitur dilectio vel odium . i confesse he doth in a disjunctive manner thus , vel ex praescientia vel ex operibus . and we know that passions such as love and hatred , are commonly said to be attributed to god , not quoad affectum but quoad effectum , and so they may fairely stand for salvation and damnation , which proceed ex operibus in hieroms phraise . but admit he means hereby , decretum salvandi which rising expraescientia fidei , must presuppose the decree of giving faith to precede . i answer then , there is to be acknowledged an impropriety of speech , and here is place for gersons rule , sancti non semper adverterunt ad proprietatem locutionis . and the rather because hierome we never find exercised in this controversy . and it is against common reason , that faith should be intended before salvation . and lastly , this were to impute unto him to acknowledge motive cause of predestination quoad actum praedestinantis : which aquinas professeth against , as a thing impossible ; namely , that there should be a cause of gods will quoad actum volentis ; nay he is bold to say that , no man was so mad to say that merits are the cause of predestination quoad actum praedestinantis . the last part of this authors performance in the poynt of antiquity is the councell of arles , subscribing as he saith , the letter which was written by faustus against lucidus the predestinarian ( for so he styles him ) and in his epistle he insists upon two anathema's , the one this , anathema illi qui dixerit illum qui periit non accepisse ut salvus esse possit . the other this , anathema illi qui dixerit quod vas contumcliae non possit affurgere , ut sit vas in honorem . first , i will answer as touching the anathema's themselves , then as touching the credit and authority of this story . . as touching the anathema's . the first proceeds as well of him that is baptized and afterwards perisheth , as of him that is a pagan and never was baptized , and perisheth in his paganisme , as the anathema it selfe witnesseth , if it be repeated at full , thus , anathema illi qui dixerit illum qui periit non accepisse , ut salvus esse possit , id est , vel de baptizato , vel de illius aetatis pagano , qui credere potuit & noluit . by which latter clause it appears , that accipere ut salvus esse possit , is no other then to receive possibilitatem credendi ( i say possibilitatem not potentiam , because i find this is faustus his usuall phraise , as it was the phraise of pelagius before him ) and this is as much as to say , that every man hath power to believe if he will. now observe i pray , this kind of power is meerely nature , not that which we commonly call grace , whereby we understand something distinct from nature . and austin acknowledgeth both , de gen. contr . manichae . lib. . cap. , that all men , possunt credere si velint ; and that this is no more then is signified by that naturall illumination wherewith god enlightens every man , when he comes into the world , iohn . . . and , de praedest . sanct. cap. . posse habere fidem , sicut posse habere charitatem , naturae est hominum . fidem verò habere , sicut & charitatem habere gratiae est fidelium . and more then this , the state of the question between pelagius and the catholiques of those daies is so proposed by austin , as not at all to consist about the possibility of believing or doing any good work , but meerly about the willing & doing of it . in so much that austin professeth , that if pelagius would acknowledge the will and doing of good to be from god , as he did the possibility hereof to be from god , there should be an end of all controversy between them , and pelagius should be received as a good catholique . this appears in his book , de gratiâ christi contra pelagium & caelestium cap. . pelagius his words were these speaking of god qui ipsius voluntatis & operis possibilitatem dedit . hanc autem possibilitatem ( saith austin ) in naturâ eum ponere de verbis ejus superioribus clarum est . sed , ne nihil de gratiâ dixisse videretur , adjunxit , quique ipsam ipsam voluntatem gratiae suae adjuvat semper auxilio . now this adjutorium possibilitatis , in what sence he delivered it , austin professeth to be obscure , both as touching the nature of it , and as touching the manner how he conceived the nature of man to be aided thereby ; but in other places , saith he , where he speaks more plainly , it appears to consist in giving a law , and affording instruction . now by the way mark austins observation upon these words of pelagius , quique ipsam possibilitatem gratiae suae adjuvat semper auxilio ; non ait , saith austin , ipsam voluntatem vel ipsam operationem , quod si diceret , non abhorrere à doctrinâ catholicâ videretur . now , voluntatem adjuvari , in austins meaning , is , voluntatem praeparari à domino ut velit ; & operationem adjuvari is , voluntatem corroborari ne frustrà velit . the one operation he calls grace prevenient , the other subsequent , according to that , nolentem praevenit ut velit , volentem subsequitur ne frustrà velit . and cap. . of the same book , non solum deus posse nostrum donavit atque adjuvat , sed etiam velle & operari operatur in nobis , whereby it appears that voluntatem atque operationem nostram adjuvari à deo , is deum operari in nobis & velle & operari quod bonum est ; which if pelagius had acknowledged he had been received for a catholique . so that he excepted not against him for acknowledging possibilitatem volendi , atque agendi quod bonum est . as touching the second anathema , i say that vas contumeliae may be taken in a double sense : either to signify a vessel deserving contumely , deserving wrath ; or to signify a vessell ordained to contumely , and to the suffering of eternall wrath . in the first sense , there is no question but a man may change from being a vessell of contumely , or a vessell of wrath , into the condition of a vessell of honour ; but in the second sense , it is as impossible there should be any such change , as it is impossible there should be any change in god , whereof i think there is no question : and both faustus and lucidus might take the phraise in the former sense : but if they did take it in this latter sense , dares this author justify them ? . now i come to the credit and authority of this story concerning the councell of arles ; and . i say , suppose it be a truth ; yet about the yeare . there was a roman councell wherein gelasius and bishops with him justify the writings of austin , and prosper , and condemne the writings of cassian and faustus , by whose procurement it is here pretended the bishops of arles subscribed this epistle of faustus unto lucidus . and the fathers of this pretended councell of arles are not reckoned up above sixteen . . the credit of this story lyeth wholly upon faustus his relation and his honesty therein , a man infamous in the church for opposing austin and his doctrine of grace and predestination , as appears by the writings of fulgentius , petrus diaconus , alchimus avitus and others . ado viennensis in chron. ad ann . . writes of him thus . faustus ex abbate monasterii licinensis apud regem galliae episcopus facius , pelagianorum dogma destruere conatus ( which yet may be made apparent to have been meerly in pretence ) in errorem unde qui ejus sensus in hac parte catholicos praedicant , sicut germadius de viris illustribus scribens , omninò errant . ita enim liberum arbitrium tàm augustinus quam caeteri catholici in ecclesia dei docent ut illuminatio , virtus & salus illi à christo , per christum , & in christo sit . faustus verò iste ita liberum christianorum arbitrium docere conatur , ut illuminatio , virtus & salus non à christo , sed a naturâ sit . contra hunc scribit beatissimus avitus viennensis episcopus lucidissima fide ejus redarguens errorem ; similiter & joannes vir eruditissimus antiochenus presbyter . isidore in his book de viris illustribus , testifies that fulgentius wrote seven books against faustus , qui mirâ calliditate catholicus videri volebat cum pelagianus esset . auctor quoque vitae ti fulgentii testatur à sancto fulgentio refutatos libros duos fausti de grat. & liber . arbitrio . and petrus diaconus in his book de incarnatione & gratiâ christi cap. ultim . anathema dicit libris fausti , and this bellarmine , de script . eccles . writes to admonish them , who in these letters contend , that faustus was a catholique . farther observe the bishops who are pretended to have subscribed faustus his epistle to lucidus are numbred these . auxianus . claudius . euphronius . eutropius . faustus . julianus . leucadius . megetius . patiens . paulus . pragmatius . but the bishops that were assembled at the councell of arles are these . agricii nomine cataphronius . caelestinus . caesarius . constantini nomine leontius . contumeliosius . cyprianus . eucherius . florentius . galliani nomine melerius . joannis nomine desiderius . julianus . maximus . philagrius . praetextatus . proitianus . severi nomine cataphronius . thus they are reckoned up on both sides by vossius , amongst whom there is but one name common . to help this , vossius deviseth a th councel of arles and that the bishops mentioned to have subscribed faustus his epistle , to be the bishops assembled in the th councel of arles , and not those whom we read to have been assembled at the third . but that any such bishops were assembled at a th councell of arles he brings no evidence , that i find ; but his own conjecture is the best ground for this . and all this pains is taken to salve faustus his reputation in this . and the reason that moves vossius to conceive that this subscription was not a meer fiction of faustus , is this ; because forsooth if this had been a meer fiction of faustus , surely maxentius in opposing him , would not have failed to have cast this in his teeth . binius is eager in the defence of these episcopall subscriptions , but withall confesseth , that either faustus himselfe , or some in his name , practised to countenance his books also by the authority of those bishops . in fine ( saith he ) hujus commentarii & libelli , ipse faustus , vel alius quis dolosè addider at haec verba , in quo quidem opusculo post arelatinsis concilii subscriptionem , novis erroribus deprehensis adjici aliqua synodus lugdunensis exegit , ut scilicet ( saith binnius ) aliquo fuco venditari posset quasi scriptum de gratiâ & libero arbitrio commentarium duae synodi recepissent & approbassent . now if such were the dishonest art of faustus in counterfeiting this , why might he not be as dishonest in counterfeiting the former episcopall subscriptions also ? and if vossius his reason to salve faustus his credit , were of force in this , why should it not be in force in the other also ? for maxentius we doe not find to have excepted against his fidelity , more in the one then in the other ? and why might not maxentius be ignorant of them both ? and in biblioth . sanct. patrum . there is an admonition added to faustus his epistle to loentius , ex indice expurgat . m. script . pelatii , wherein though faustus his epistle to lucidus , is acknowledged to have been approved by the episcopall subscriptions in the councell of arles , yet as touching faustus his mendicating authority from those fathers to his books , de grat. & lib. arbit . the author thereof spares not in plain termes to give faustus the lye in these words . neutiquam tamen ullus ob id existimet ab utroque concilio approbatos tres libros fausti de gratiâ , ut ipse mendaciter innuere videtur in ea quae his subjicitur , praefatoriâ epistolâ ad episcopum leontinum &c. but can vossius shew that maxentius did cast this jugling course of faustus in his teeth ? but it seems that vossius had no great need to trouble himselfe in the vindicating of faustus his reputation in pretending the subscription of bishops to his epistle written to lucidus . for how doth it appeare that faustus is the author of any such pretence ? it is true , in the epistle it selfe that he wrote to lucidus , he professeth that he kept a copy of it , to shew to that assembly of bishops , hujus epistolae exemplar mecum retineo in conventu sanctorum antistitum , si ita necesse fuerit , proferendum : by the way observe that this resolution of his , was not absolute , but si ita necesse fuerit , and this necessity he signifies wherein it did consist , namely in case lucidus by his silence , did give testimony of his continuance in his errour , as he calls it , his words are these , quod si eam subscriptam transmittere nolueris , aperte adhuc te in errore persistere ipso silentio comprobabis , ac perinde iam necessitatem mihi facies ad personam tuam publicis conventibus exponendam . now as for that which followes after the end of the epistle , et subscripserunt episcopi , qui ordine subsequuntur qui in eâ quoque synodo adfuerunt . auxanius in christi nomine episcopus , relegi & subscripsi faustus exemplar epistolae meae relegi & subscrip . paulus episcopus in christi nomine , rel. & subscrip . eutropius &c. observe the admonition subjoyned by henricus canisius . these subscriptions , saith he , are not in the manuscript . hae subscriptiones non sunt in manuscripto codice . consider i pray the fair issue of this authors learned pretence of antiquity , he honoureth the gray haires of faustus , and those grave assemblies mentioned by him whereof we have no certainty ; but how honoureth he the grayer haires of austin , & of all the assemblies against the pelagians , that you may guesse , though he concealeth it . and herein his devotion to this kind of antiquity , where he thinketh it will serve his turne , he is content you should conceive it doth exceed the devotion of calvin and beza , yea and of austin also ; whose answer to prosper he is content to passe by as not savouring so much of piety in his judgement , but the massilienses zeale of the ancients represented by prosper unto austin , that is suitable to his humour , he relisheth that well , and so well that he thinks it fit vehemently to mistrust those doctrines which they never approved , but disliked and condemned . yet of any condemnation other then what is implied by faustus , a man infamous , and whose writings were condemned by bishops , he makes no mention . and before austins daies , and the daies of pelagius , the ancients were not exercised with any controversy hereabouts . and was their non-approbation of his doctrine , concerning absolute predestination , any motive to austin vehemently to mistrust the truth thereof ? i think he will not say it was ; and therefore i hope he will give calvin and beza leave , never a whit the more for that cause , to mistrust the same doctrine , in granting the ancients to have conceived predestination to proceed secundum praescientiam according unto foreknowledge , he is content to conform himselfe to their judgement ; but in mistrusting the contrary doctrine , hereupon you must give him leave to follow his own , or any , rather then not calvins or beza's , but even austins also , though never so much magnified by the church of god , and his writings countenanced especially against the pelagians , and the contrary condemned , by other manner of councells then arelatense d , and lugdunense . i remember when epicurus was demanded why , seeing he followed leucippus so much , he did not follow him throughout , made this answer saying , i doe as a man that is a thirst when he takes the cup to drink , for he drinks what will serve his turne , and sets the rest by : so you must give this author leave to represent his devotion to gray haires , so farre as they serve his turne , and no farther . yet i have shewed how austin maintaines , as touching the ancients that went before him , that they concurred with him in fundomento praedestinationis , which he accounted the the doctrine of free grace , and cites to this purpose cyprian , ambrose , and nazianzen , and by the common prayers of the church , that god would convert the unbelievers unto the faith of christ ; that the same doctrine , which was in his judgement the foundation of predestination , as he maintained it according to the word of god , was generally received in the church of god. before i part from this , i think fit to adde something concerning the stile here given to lucidus , before the revocation of his pretended error ; for here i find him stiled the predestinarian . now i presume this author , that pretends so great reverence to gray haires , and so much preferres antiquity before novelty , hath good ground for this his denomination of him , and that out of antiquity . now i desire he would be pleased to communicate unto us , his learned reading in antiquity for this ; and the rather , because in the whole story of the businesse between faustus and lucidus , i find no mention of any such attribute given to his person , or to the doctrine ( reputed by faustus erroneous ) maintained by him . the terme praedestinatus qualirying a person , i find first in arnobius junior , and from that time i find not the praedestinati , or praedestinatians mentioned till the daies of hinemarus , about the year of our lord god . and as for the story of the predestinarian heresy , which this author licks his lipps at , the originall whereof is referred to the yeare by sigibertus ; it is very strange , that in austins daies it was not known unto him , or being known , not taken notice of by him , nor by prosper neither after him . and alphonsus à castro in his book contra haereses , professeth that the author of this heresy he found not , neither in sigibert , nor in any other ; because indeed not one of those who wrote of heresics makes mention of this heresy , besides bernard of lutzenburg in his catalogue of heretiques ; and he saith no more of it , then what sigibert mentioneth in his chronicle . and withall he addes , that after this errour was buried , by the space of almost a thousand years , it was revived by john husse the bohemian . whereby it appears , that alphonsus was not of this authors opinion in censuring this lucidus for a predestinarian . and the first that i find to intimate so much is hincmarus about the yeare . in like sort prateölus acknowledgeth that , quis corum dux & institutor fuerit , nescitur . but gerardus vossius hath herein helped us with this conjecture , referring the originall of this heresy to the monks of adrumetum ; and bishop usher in his historiá godescalci saith , vossius was the first that charged those adrumetine monks to be the author thereof . yet if i be not deceived , he might be beholding to coccius for helping him to this conceit . but this makes the matter more strange another way , namely that austin should not take notice of this predestinarian heresy , seeing none was so well acquainted with the opinion of those his neighbour monks , as he , being the man , whom they consulted about the difference that rose thereabouts , and wrote two books thereupon and composed all . and yet i see no reason why vossius should referre it to the adrumetine monks hand over head , when as it is cleer by the relation of them , that came over to austin to complaine thereof , and to conferre with him thereupon ; that they were but few , who were carried away with that errour , whereof they complained , and that it was but one , that troubled the place of their monastery herein , who was as it were the ringleader to the rest ; of which vossius could not be ignorant . and therefore i see no cause why he should charge them all indifferently , or that party either , who were tainted herewith , as is pretended ; seeing there was an antesignanus who led the rest , of whom vossius speaks nothing at all ; and i suppose he knew some good cause why . besides , the predestinarian heresy is pretended to have risen ab augustini libris malè intellectis . now i find no colour of evidence hitherto , that these monks of adrumentum , whom vossius makes the founders of this heresy , were led awry by the misunderstanding of austins writings . neither doth vossius any where , that i know , take any pains to cleare this . and i would gladly be beholding to this author , that pretends so much zeale unto , and skill in the knowledge of antiquity , and so boldly stileth lucidus a predestinarian , for communicating unto us his rare evidences concerning this point , out of his great observations . and so much the rather , to take mee off from mine errour , who since the first time that i travelled in the search after this predestinarian heresy in dealing with corvinus , which is now some three years agoe . i have been apt to conceive that this heresy from the first , was but a meer fiction of the pelagians and semi-pelagians , cunningly to disgrace thereby the doctrine of st austin . and since the coming forth of dr ushers history in the cause of godescalcus , i have been confirmed herein ; as wherein he gives to understand , that whereas tyro prosper wrote hereof before sigibert , although the printer hath made him to speak as sigibert doth , namely , that haec haeresis orta est ab augustini libris malè intellectis : yet that is not the language of tyro himselfe , but plainly this , haec haeresis ab augustino orta est , and that learned bishop hath shewed out of two manuscripts of tyro , the one in bennet colledge in cambridge , the other in our kings library : and this he farther confirmes by comparing the description which gennadius makes of that , which he calls the predestinatian heresy , with the doctrine of augustin . lib. . cont . julian . pelag. cap. . & de bono persev . cap. . and withall the same learned bishop makes it appeare , that look what doctrine sigebertus ascribes to the predestinatians , the same doctrine was charged upon austin , and such as concurred with him therein . this i say that learned bishop proves out of the beginning of the book hypemnesticon . credere nos vel praedicare sugillatis quod deus quosdam hominum sic praedestinet ad vitam regni caelorum , ut si nolint or are , aut jejunare , aut in omni opere divino vigiles esse , eos omninò perire non posse , nec prorsus sui debere esse sollicitos quos deus quia voluit semel jam elegendo praedestinavit ad vitam : quosdam verò sic praedestinavit in gehennae paenam ut etiam si credere velint , si jejuniis & or ationibus , omnique se voluntati divinae subjicerent , in his deum non delectari & vitam illis aeternam in totum dari non posse , &c. now this in effect is the very heresy of the predestinatians related by sigebert . therefore i much desire this author would take the paines to prove , that this pretended predestinarian heresy was indeed received to be an heresy by the catholique church , and not rather a fiction of the remnants of the pelagians , wherewithall to reproach the doctrine of s. austin in the poynt of predestination . thus have i examined this authors pretence of the novelty of our tenent . i come to the consideration of that which followes . discourse . the second motive . it s unwillingnesse to abide the tryall . i find that the authors and abettors of it , have been very backward to bring it to the standard , not only when they have been called upon by their adversaries to have been weighed , but also when they have been intreated thereto by their chief magistrates who might have commanded them . a shrewd argument ( mee thinks ) that it is too light . in the disputation at mompelgard anno held between beza and jacobus andreas with some seconds on both sides , beza and his company having disputed with the lutherans about the person of christ , the lords supper &c. when they came to this point , did decline the sifting of it , and gave this reason among others , that it could not then possibly be disputed of , sine gravi eorum offendiculo , qui tanti mysterii capaces non sunt , without the great scandall and hurt of the ignorant , and unacquainted with these high mysteries . the contra-remonstrants also in their conference with their adversaries at the hague in the year could not be drawn to dispute with them about this point , but delivered a petition to the states of holland and westfrizland that they might not be urged to it , resolving rather to break off the conference , then to meddle with it . in the synod likewise of dort , in the year , and . the remonstrants were warned by the president of the synod ut de electione potius quàm de odiosâ reprobations materiâ agerent , that they should rather dispute of the point of election , then the odious point of reprobation . can this doctrine be a truth , and yet blush at the light , which makes all thing manifest ? especially considering these things . . that reprobation is a principall head of practicall divinity by the ill , or well stating of which , the glory of god , and good of religion is much promoted , or hindered . . that there is such a necessary connexion between the points of election and reprobation ( both being parts of predestination ) that the one cannot well be handled without the other . . that reprobation was the chief cause of all the uproares in the church at that time . . that it was accused with open mouth , and challenged of falshood , and therefore bound in justice to purge it selfe of the crimination . . that it may easily be defended , if ( as some say ) it be such an apparent truth , for nihil est ad defendendum puritate tutius , nihil ad dicendum veritate facilius , saith s. hierom. the striving to lye close and hide it selfe , though perhaps it be not so infallible , yet it is a very probable argument of a bad cause . truth covets no corners , but is willing to abide the tryall , whether in men or in doctrines . david knowing his heart to be without guile , offers himselfe ready to the lords tryall , search me , o god , and know my heart , try me and know my thoughts , and see if there be any wicked way in me . and our saviour tells us that , every one that doth evill , hates the light and comes not to the light , least his deeds should be reproved ; but he that doth truth , comes to the light , that his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in god. as s. paul saith of an heretick , he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 selfe condemned , and so may we say of heresy and untruth , it condemnes it selfe , and by nothing more then by refusing the touch-stone . he is to be thought an empty scholler , who is loath to be opposed , and his gold to be light and counterfeit , that will not have it touched and weighed , and these opinions to be but errours , which would so willingly walk in a mist , and dwell in silence , when it concernes the peace of the church so much to have them examined . twisse consideration . vvho are these authors of this doctrine , who here are said to have been backward to bring it to the standard ? is beza those authors ? whereof was he the author ? was it the doctrine of predestination as proceeding of the meer pleasure of god , and not upon foresight of mans faith and works ? is it not apparent that this was the doctrine of austin years agoe , and that in opposition to the pelagians and semi-pelagians ? or was it the doctrine of reprobation , as not proceeding upon the foresight of sinne , but of the meer pleasure of god ? is this author so ignorant , as not to know what are the conclusions of alvarez in the question , whether there be any cause of reprobation on mans part . lib. . de auxil . disc . . pag. . . his first conclusion is this , reprobation whereby god decreed not to give unto some everlasting life , and to permit their sinne , is not conditionate , but absolute : neither doth it presuppose in god , foresight of the deserts of reprobates , or of their perseverance in sinne unto the last period of their life . . his next conclusion is , in the angells that fell , there is no cause of their reprobation on their part , as touching the whole effect thereof , but before any foresight of their future sinne , god , pro sua voluntate , of his meer will , did reprobate some of them , and suffered them to fall into sinne . . the third , infants departing in originall sinne alone , there is no cause on their part of reprobation , if they be considered in comparison with others which are not reprobated , and the like is to be said proportionably of men of ripe years . . the fourth , not only comparatively , but absolutely there is no cause of reprobation . therefore neither sinne actuall , nor originall , nor both of them foreseen by god , was indeed the meritorious and motive cause of the reprobation of any , as touching all the effects thereof , and the proofe hereof he prosecutes at large . . reprobation as touching the last effect thereof , presupposeth in signo rationis the foresight of sinne originall , or actuall , for which a reprobate is damned . marke it well , he does not say as the cause for which god decrees his damnation , but as the cause for which a reprobate is damned . and aquinas ( whose followers the dominicans are ) expresseth this doctrine in this manner , and that more scholastically and accurately then alvarez . praescientia peccatorum potest esse aliqua ratio reprobationis ex parte paenae quae praeparatur reprobatis , in quantum scilicet deus proponit se puniturum malos propter peccata , &c. in ad rom. . sect. . in fine , that is , prescience of sinnes may be some reason of reprobation on the part of punishment , to wit , in as much as god purposeth to punish wicked men for their sinnes . where sinne is evidently made the cause of damnation , and that by vertue of gods purpose , but by no means the cause of the decree it selfe . and the same aquinas elsewhere professeth that , no man was so mad as to affirme that merits are the cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating : and that it cannot be the cause thereof , he proves , because nothing can be the cause of gods will , as touching the act of god willing , but as touching the things willed by god , as formerly he had proved . the same doctrine in effect is taught by durand in . dist . . q. . bonaventure applies the same distinction to reprobation it selfe . odium aeternum , saith he , implies two things , principale significatum & connotatum &c. & primum non est ex meritis , sed secundum . this he explicates in the words following , quod patet si resolvatur , quia odium est propositum puniendi : propositum autem nullus meretur sed paenam , that is , hatred ( or reprobation ) is gods purpose to punish : of this divine purpose there is no meritorious cause , but only of the punishment . the same was the opinion of gandavensis , scotus , halensis , as i have shewed in my vindiciae . now judge i pray with how little judgement , or modesty this author intimates beza to be the author of the doctrine of absolute reprobation . perhaps he will say his meaning is , that he was the author of the upper-way , as touching the making of the object of predestination mankind not yet created . but to this i answer , that beza doth so indeed , but he was never called to a conference hereabouts , and consequently he never declined it . and that which was declined , he makes to be declined by the abettors , as well as the authors ; which cannot be understood of this nice and logicall poynt , as touching the object of reprobation . the main question is , whether there be any cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating : the negative whereof , was maintained very generally amongst schoole-divines before beza was borne . and was it ever known , that those i have named did shrink in their heads or decline the triall thereof ? what a silly thing is it then to inferre , that because beza at such a time , did decline the disputation hereof , and the contra-remonstrants at another time , therefore it is suspectable to be an untruth ? yet let us examine his instances . beza he saith did decline the sifting of this doctrine ( to wit , of predestination ) ( for on that they were moved to dispute . ) i doubt this author speaks by rote , and that he is nothing at all acquainted with the story hereof , either in osiander or in beza , but transcribes only what another hath prompted unto him . for it is apparent by osianders history , that they did conferre thereof . it is true he stood off at the first , and gave reasons for it , but at length he and his fellowes , condescended to the instance and importunity of their adversaries , and so came on to the conference hereabout , his words are these . praefat. in . part . respons . ad acta colloq . mompelg . quamvis quò evasura essent reliqua satis prospiceremus , mane nihilominus mutata sententia illustriss . principe salutato , in reliquam sequentem collationem consensimus ; eâ tantùm conditione additâ , ne propter proximum paschae festum , ea disceptatio longius protraheretur . et ita demùm ad audiendas d. andreae declamationes rursum processimus . was it this point alone the sifting whereof , as this author phraseth it , beza declined ? it is apparent they were no lesse then three points . this appears by the second part of beza's answer ad act . colloq . mompelg . as also by the answer of jacobus andreae , as if he were the mouth of the prince , namely , that if they list not de tribus illis conferre , yet he thought it fit that theses written by them on those three articles should be rehearsed in the hearing of all , which afterwards beza and his fellowes might take home with them to addresse an answer to them afterwards , as they thought good . and these three articles were concerning , predestination , baptisme , and the putting down of images in churches . concerning all which jacobus andreae gives his reasons , why he thought it fit they should entertaine farther conference ; whereunto beza makes answer in his praeface to that second part of his answer ad act. colloq . mompelg . it is true , this reason beza gave why he thought it not fit in that place publiquely to dispute thereof , to wit , of predestination , quod haec gravissima quaestio publicè in illo caetu allatis utrinque contrariis sententiis disceptari absque nonnullorum offendiculo non posse videretur . for both the mysterious nature of it is such , as few are capable of it ; the massilienses professed as much , as appears in prospers epistle unto austin , de his taceri exigunt ( saith prosper ) quorum altitudinem nullus attigerit . and to the same purpose , even they who durst not dislike austins doctrine thereof professed as much , as appears by the letter of hilarius unto austin . consentientibus etiam his qui hanc definitionem improbare non audent , ut dicant , quid opus fuit hujusmodi disputationis incerto tot minus intelligentium corda turbari ? then again it was in a lutheran assembly , and amongst many brought up in the hatred of the doctrine which beza maintained , who in all likelihood would be the more exasperated . causas verum tacendi tongum est omnes quaerere ( saith austin ) quarum tamen est & haec una ne priores faciamus eos qui non intelligunt . no wise man , saith our saviour , putteth new wine into old bottells . quanto minus sapit , saith beza in that preface of his , qui de praest antissimo vino prius in utres faecibus adhuc , & vappa obsitos immittendo quàm de repurgandis illis & apparandis cogitet . lastly , beza perceiveth the practice of jacobus andreas standing upon a place of advantage , to urge them to conferre upon such a poynt , the truth whereof is most harsh to carnall affections , that so he might have the better opportunity to make them odious . and truly what jacobus andreas was , i know not , but beza sets him forth as a man of a most malevolent disposition to the french protestants : and our saviour hath admonished us , not to give that which is holy unto doggs , or to cast pearle before swine . yet andreas to serve his turne , and to draw them into a snare , pleads that the doctrine of predestination , is not so to be put over in the schooles , ut non opus sit eam rudi & imperito populo ponere ; yet hunnius a man of the same profession , is so farre different from iacobus andreas , that he thinks it not fit to preach before the rude people of prescience divine , but very sparingly ; how much lesse would he think it fit to preach before them of predestination divine ? de praedest . quest . & respons . pag. . his words are these , interim hoc repeto quod supra monui rudioribus ( quibus apostolus vult lac propinari , non cibum solidum apponi ) non esse multum de praescientiâ dei disputandum , hâc solummodo de causa quia haud perinde capiunt ea quae alias in scholis in disputationibus contra adversarios , & , ut paulus ait , inter perfectos utiliter & ex fundamentis eloquiorum dei astrui solent . coram rudioribus ergo simplicior loquendi ratio & ipsorum captui accommodatior est si dicamus , deum ad haereditatem regni caelestis elegisse & certo salvare decrevisse eos omnes qui resipiunt , & in vera fide filii dei ex hâc vitâ decedunt . it s well known what order king iames took in his time , in the restraint of preaching this doctrine in the pulpits , by any under the degree of a deane , and counselled the states likewise to forbid the preaching of those controversall points amongst them . and if it were wisdome in them to take this course , without any prejudice to the truth of the doctrine , why should beza's with-holding from conference hereupon , be any thing prejudiciall thereto . but were there not other causes of moment , to move him hereunto , which this author conceales , and which beza proposeth in the first place ? as namely , that the prince who invited them hereunto , in his letters missive , alleaged no other cause of that meeting , but infaelicem de coenâ domini controversiam , that unhappy controversy about the supper of the lord. secondly , that their citties sent them over accordingly to this conference for no other cause , but to conferre thereabours . this iacobus andreas acknowledgeth , and giveth a reason why in those letters of the prince , there was no mention made of those three articles , whereabout they were afterwards urged to conferre , to wit , quod illos in istis quoque dissidere non intellexerat princeps illustrissimus . and thirdly , because the feast of easter approched , and they desired to be at home in their own citties by that time . lastly , doth if follow , that because they declined the sifting the truth of these poynts ( as this author phraiseth it ) after such a manner , to wit , by publique disputation ; doth it herehence follow , that they declined the sifting of it ? they made this offer to propose their opinion herein , and the confirmation of it out of the word of god , in private before the prince : and if jacobus andreas were pleased to propose any theses against it , they would take them along with them and upon consideration to addresse a convenient answer thereunto ; this beza sets down in that preface : let d. andrews shew if he can , saith beza , hanc christianae doctrinae partem aut à nostris sive scribendo sive concionando praetermissam , aut a suis rectius & acuratius quàm a nostris pertractatam . and truly for my part , i no way like such conferences , being privy to mine own imperfections , as having neither such strength of memory as to command a present use of my knowledge in these poynts upon all occasions , nor such command of my passions , as to keep them from breaking forth in such sort as might be obnoxious to censures , not knowing how i might be provoked ; but certainly i feare not to come to the examination of any of their writings , or to offer mine own to be examined by any of them . one thing i had almost omitted out of beza , in his preface to the first part of his answer to these acts. it was beza's motion that all things passing between them on both sides , might be set down in writing , under the hands of collators ; and this course i confesse i could willingly approve of , and after this manner to conferre with any . but this so faire a motion was rejected by andreas ; he would conferre rather by word of mouth then by writing . a second motion proposed by beza was this , that what was spoken on both sides , might be set down in writing by notaries chosen and appoynted thereunto by common consent . but neither would andreas admit of this . petivimus , saith beza , initio ut utrinque omnia scriptis propria collocutorum manu subsignatis agerentur . quod cum d. andreae non placuisset qui verbis agi malebat ( for the auditory was very propitious to him for the most part ) postulavi ut utrinque dicta à probatis & utriusque partis consensu delectis notariis exciperentur , quae deinde cuique parti recognoscere & addita subscriptione confirmare liceret . haec enim erat profectò justa & sincera colloquendi ratio ut sic falsationi occurreretur . quum autem ne hoc quidem admitteret d. andreas , &c. now let any indifferent person that is not sowred with partiall affections , judge whose carriage is to be thought in equity more prejudiciall to their cause , the carriage of andreas , or the carriage of beza . i come to the contra-remonstrants unwillingnesse to conferre upon the poynt of reprobation . what their reasons were i know not . but this i am sure of , the scripture is free in speaking of election , and expresse ; not so of reprobation , leaving us to take notice of the condition of reprobation by its opposition to election . and in conformity hereunto , both austin in his time , and remigius in his time , and bradwardine in his time , speaks liberally of predestination , but very sparingly of reprobation . and the doctrine of reprobation as it is nothing lesse mysterious then that of election ; so it is farre more harsh to carnall affections . and it is well known that at the time of the hague conference , barnavelt that ruled the rost amongst the states , was too great a friend to the arminian party . but , what boldnesse doth this author take in passing his suspicious censures upon a doctrine , because some defenders of it , at some time have been loath to come to entertaine a publique conference thereupon ? for what argument call you this , the contra-remonstrants would not be brought to give their reasons on this point ; therefore the doctrine of austin delivered years ( or thereabouts ) before , concerning the absolutenesse both of predestination on the one side , and of preterition on the other ( as vossius acknowledgeth ) is to be suspended of untruth ? and if my readinesse to come to the triall hereon doth nothing credit the cause as maintained by others ; why should others unwillingnesse to come to the same triall , be any disparagement to the same cause , as it is maintained by me or any other ? it is well known that peter moulin , concurring with us in the poynt of absolute predestination , maintaines reprobation to proceed upon the divine foresight of finall perseverance in impenitency . if this author differed from us no more the m r moulin doth , and acknowledged the meer pleasure of god , in giving grace to whom he will , and denying it to whom he will , i doe not think any friend of his would think any whit the worse of him , or charge him with defection from the truth of god in this . neither can i think , that he ever was of any other opinion , considering how many worthy divines opposite to the arminians , doe either conceive , or at least seem to conceive that the purpose of god to damne , doth presuppose in signo rationis the foresight of finall impenitency , yet concurring with us in this , that all are fallen in adam and so brought forth into the world in damnatâ massà , as austin calleth it . god of his meer pleasure cures this naturall corruption ( the fruits whereof are infidelity and impenitency ) in some , by regenerating them and bestowing the grace of faith and repentance upon them , and leaves it uncured in others by refusing to regegenerate them , to bestow faith and repentance upon them ; we give the hands of christian fellowship , and brotherly amity one unto another , without all exception notwithstanding some nice differences , which in the issue i hope , will prove to be meerly logicall , and nothing theologicall . lastly , however this poynt of unwillingnesse in some , to come to conferre in the poynt of reprobation , might cast some colour of suspicion to the prejudicing of their cause ; yet least of all did it become this author to take advantage hereof , considering that it is his own case , as who declineth not one poynt only , but all the rest in this his discourse , and cleaves only to that of reprobation , nothing answerably ( i presume ) to * your expectation , who put this task upon him : and whether it be any thing answerable to the promise he made unto you , your self are best acquainted therewith . yet because the remonstrants hereupon ( to wit , upon the contra-remonstrants declining this controversy ) have taken liberty to oppose the doctrine of the contra-remonstrants in this poynt , so farre forth , as they made construction of their opinion hereupon , by their doctrine concerning election ; therefore i will not spare even here , to digresse so farre , as to take notice what they delivered , and to addresse an answer hereunto , the rather because i find this discourse of theirs inserted in their relation of that conference at hague . now , whereas first , by a long deduction upon consideration of the contra-remonstrants doctrine in the poynt of election , they doe inferre colloq . hagh . bertii p. . that like as faith is made by them a fruit of election , so infidelity is by them to be made a fruit of reprobation : this consequence we utterly deny . it only followes herehence , that like as faith , whereby mans naturall infidelity is cured , is by them made the fruit of election , so the denyall of faith , that is , the not curing of mans infidelity , or the leaving of it uncured is the fruit of reprobation . and indeed considering the means must be his work who intends the end , wherehence it followeth , that look what end god doth intend in mans election , the means tending thereunto must be gods work , as namely , faith ; in like sort , whatsoever be the end which god intends in reprobation , the means tending thereunto , must be his work , which cannot be infidelity or sinne , but the permission of sinne rather and infidelity , or the not curing of that corruption and infidelity which is naturall unto us all . hereupon they proceed to propose two things to be questioned , in congruity to the doctrine of the contra-remonstrants . . utrumne fides in consilio & decreto dei de electione ad salutem , eam ipsam electionem ordine praecedat an verò consequatur ? , ex alterâ parte ; an infidelitas in eodem consilio & decreto dei de reprobatione ad exitium , eam ipsam reprobationem ordine praecedat an sequatur ? the latter of these is only pertinent to our present purpose ; yet seeing they handle them both , so farre as to dispute against the opinion of their opposites in both , and carry themselves herein magnificentissimè , i am content to weigh their arguments , in the ballance of scholasticall consideration , least some such as this author , should affect to seem judicious in suspecting my declining of them to savour of some inability to encounter them . thus therefore they beginne . if faith followes election unto salvation , then also the decree of sending christ as a saviour into the world , must necessarily follow that election ; but this consequent is absurd , and pertains notably to the ignominy of christ . to this i answer . first out of mine own opinion , thus. faith is supposed to follow election unto salvation , upon no other ground then because the intention of giving faith , is supposed to follow the intention of giving salvation . but this i should deny , and that for this reason , because this subordination is grounded only upon supposition , that salvation is the end which god intends , and faith the means tending unto that end : but this i deny . first , because the end of gods actions , is not the salvation of man , but the manifestation of his own glory . for he made all things for himselfe , pov. . . and reason justifies it . for god being the supream efficient , must be the supream end ; and being optimus as well as maximus , he must needs be both most lovely and most loving , of that which is most lovely , that is , of himselfe . but because some may conceive that though gods glory be the supream end , yet mans salvation may be the intermediate end : therefore to this i answer ; first , let such shew then what is the glory of god , which salvation of the creature setteth forth , and i doubt not , but if that glory be stated right , it will appeare , that not salvation alone , but something else is required to be joyned with it ; as namely , the mission of christ , yea and faith in christ , to compleat that means , which tend to the procurement of such an end , that is , to the setting forth of such a glory . secondly , the end whether supream or intermediate is alwaies such as being rightly understood , doth break such a means ; but salvation is not so in respect of faith ; for it doth not bespeak it , as is apparent in the salvation of angels , of infants ; as also in this , that it was absolutely possible for god to save even sinners without christ , as may be demonstrated and i have demonstrated in my vind. grat. dei. by variety of evident reasons . in a word , if gods supream end , were the manifestation of his glory on some considered , as meerely possible in doing them good in the highest degree , and that in the way of mercy mixt with justice , and that ex condigno & ex congruo ; it is apparent , that the means required hereunto , and bespoken hereby , is a body consisting of divers particulars , all together compleating the integrall means required hereunto . for herehence it followeth , that they must be both created , without which no glory of god at all can be manifested upon them and permitted to sinne , otherwise god could not doe them good in the way of mercy , which supposeth misery , but also that a saviour must be sent , and he no lesse then the sonne of god , to deserve the pardon of their sinne and salvation , otherwise it could not be in the way of mercy mixt with justice de condigno : and faith and repentance must be bestowed on them , otherwise the good done them , could not be by way of reward : and lastly , salvation , otherwise good could not be done them in the highest degree . and thus in no moment of nature is the predestination of christ either before or after the predestination of man ; as our brittish divines maintained at the synod of dort ; but at once god predestinated both him to be our head and us his members ; like as aquinas maintained christs predestination , and our predestination to be one act in god , and consequently neither could be the cause of another . thus have i dispatched mine answer unto them , as touching mine own opinion . but supposing the method of the contra-remonstrants sound , in making salvation of man , to be intended by god as an end , and both mans faith in christ , and christs mission to be intended as means . we deny this to be absurd or ignominious unto christ . le ts heare how they prove it , thus ; if the decree of sending christ be posterior to the electing of singular persons unto salvation , then the intention of mans salvation was posterior to gods intention of satisfaction to his justice , which say they is absurd and foolish , to wit , to decree the salvation of sinners , unlesse first he decree satisfaction to his justice . but i answer according to the forme of the contra-remonstrants doctrine : first , by proving their order to be sound : secondly , by shewing the invalidity of the remonstrants discourse . first therefore : there was never any other order of intentions acknowledged by the learned , then such as is found between the intention of the end , and the intention of the means tending thereunto . and the order most received is this ; that the intention of the end , is before the intention of the means . now let every man that is is his right witts consider , which is more likely to be the end , and which the means of these two , mans salvation , and christs mission to satisfy for the sinne of man. was ever any man known to be so brainsick as to affirme , that the salvation of man is a means tending to this end , namely , the sending of christ into the world to satisfy for the sinne of man ? on the other side , how fair and plausible is it to affirme , that christ was sent into the world , to satisfy for mans sinne , to this end , that man might be saved ? whence it followeth evidently by the most approved rules of schooles , that the intention of mans salvation is in signo rationis , before the intention of sending christ into the world , to make satisfaction for sinne . againe , if christs sending into the world to make satisfaction for sinne , be first in intention , then it should be last in execution , by rules undeniable , and such as are manifest by the very light of nature ; whence it followeth , that man should be first saved and after that christ sent into the world , that , by his sufferings , gods justice might be satisfied . now i come to the consideration of the remonstrants argument . the consequence of the major we grant , but the minor we deny . and it is a vaine thing for them to cry out , that it is absurd and foolish to say , that the intention of salvation , precedes the intention of satisfying gods justice ; for words must not carry it : and it is well known that the most empty vessells give the greatest sound . i have shewed how absurd it is to conceive , that man was saved to this end , that gods justice may be satisfied , and that 't is farre more probable to say , that by christs sufferings , gods justice was satisfied to this end , that man might be saved . for the salvation of man we say , was not intended by god simply , but after a certain manner , to wit , in the way of mercy mixed with justice ; which end doth not presuppose the permission of sinne , as these remonstrants shape the matter to varnish over their consequence , with some colour of probability : but rather it bespeaks , both the permission of sinne , and satisfaction to be made for sinne , to the end that so man might be saved , not simply , but after a certain manner , to wit , in the way of mercy mixed with justice . but suppose they were considered as sinners , why should the remonstrants look strangely upon this doctrine , namely , that god should intend the salvation of sinners in signo rationis , before he intended that his justice should be satisfied ? for doe not they maintaine , that god by power absolute , can pardon sinne without all satisfaction ? but supposing that god will not pardon sinne without satisfaction , in this case they may contend , that god must first intend to take a course , that such satisfaction may be made , and then intend to save . and let them contend but in the name of reason , and not of clamours , and content themselves , with the infatuation of themselves , with such senselesse conceits , and not spread this scab unto others also . my reason to the contrary is still the same , namely , that if god be pleased to save sinners in despight of sinne , in the way of mercy mixt with justice , the case is cleare , that satisfaction for sinne , is rather a means of mans salvation , then mans salvation is a means tending to the procurement of satisfaction for sinne , and consequently the intention of salvation of sinners , is in reason to precede the intention of procuring satisfaction , rather then to follow after it ; as the intention of the end , is rather to be accounted before , then after the intention of the means . yet say these remonstrants , if a man will be so obstinate , as ( notwithstanding the felicity of these remonstranticall witts in fruitfull inventions and subtile argumentations ) still to deny that there is any absurdity herein , thus over and above we prove it . for as yet they have runne themselves out of breath . if , say they , the decree of christ a saviour , be after the election of particular persons unto salvation , it followeth that god did decree some particular mens salvation , before he ordained christs merits to procure their salvation ; but this is foolish and absurd . i answer , no more foolish and absurd then the former : and indeed every one of these consequences for the expressing whereof , they affect to seem very inventious , doe savour of no invention at all ; the consequents doe so evidently , even every one of them appeare as clearely in the antecedent , as a mans face in a glasse , and are to be accounted rather tautologies , then deductions , much lesse doe they rellish of any subtilty of wit. so that all this while , they seem to be in travell with nothing but wind , or sick of the disease called tenasmus , striving mightily to doe somewhat , when indeed they doe nothing at all . and our former argument still hath place , and here also applied , doth manifest , that seeing the merits of the sonne of god are the means of mans salvation , then mans salvation is the end of christs merits ; therefore in all probability , the intention of mans salvation , as the intention of the end , should precede the intention of sending christ to merit as the means , rather then to be subordinate unto it . and indeed if the sending of christ into the world to merit , should be first in intention , then should it be last in execution ; that is , all the elect should first be saved , and then christ should be sent into the world to merit their salvation . therefore to mend the matter ( for who is so silly as not to perceive , that if the consideration of christs obedience , as satisfactory , will not serve their turne , surely neither will the consideration of his obedience as meritorious , stand them in any stead ) they put into this consequence another clause , without all art , and without all honesty , pretending , that hereby we make salvation destinated to man , before it is decreed to man : as if we put any difference in this case between destination and decree , or as if we make salvation destinated to a man hereby , before it is destinated unto him ; whereas we only make the end ( that is salvation ) intended before the merits of christ ( which are the means of salvation ) are intended . and would any man that is in his right witts , say this is to make salvation destinated to a man before it is destinated to him ? farther , it is to be observed , that we may omit nothing , but take notice of the uttermost of their strength , and the rather , because it will notably discover either their ignorance , or which is most likely , ( for as much as they doe not directly insist , as they might upon a new argument farre more plausible with the ignorant ) their unconscionablenesse . for they signify that hence it will come to passe , that the intention of salvation , being before the intention of finding of christ to merit , salvation shall exist , being decreed as present to god , before christ is considered as he that by his crosse hath deserved it . now had they said before christ hath deserved it , i should readily have granted it . for i hope none of thē would deny , that the salvation of many a prophet and patriarch , existed not only before god , but actually and really before christ was crucified . to prevent this elusion of their argument , they expresse it thus , before christ was considered as he that hath deserved it . yet here they fall foule upon an indecent expression . for i will be bold to deny , that christ was considered by god , as one that had deserved mans salvation , before he had deserved it . for before he had deserved it by his crosse , to say , that god considered him as one that had deserved it , is either to erre or to feigne , neither of which is incident unto god. god considered him from everlasting , as one that in the fulnesse of time should deserve it , by suffering upon the crosse , not as one that had deserved it . for to conceive him after the former manner , is to conceive aright , but to conceive him after the latter manner , is to conceive amisse . but i will take the pains to mend this argument for them thus . if their salvation were decreed before christs merits , then their salvation did exist as present with god before christs merits did exist , as present with god. but this is not to be admitted : now i come to discover their ignorance , which they betray in this . first , neither gods prescience , nor gods decree doth make things to exist , otherwise then in esse cognito & in esse velito ; but this is not to exist . therefore they qualify it by the addition of the manner , ut praesens deo ; which indeed is terminus diminuens in this case . for it is present to god by vertue of his decree intentionally only , and not really , which alo●e is to exist . but let this peccadillio passe . secondly , who seeth not that this argument tends to the utter destruction of all distinct intentions of end , and means in god ? for if there be any such distinct intentions in god , the one must be acknowledged to be before the other . as for example , what was the end of creation ? le ts goe no farther then the manifestation of gods power and wisdome as the end thereof . now hence it will follow by the quaintnesse of this argumentation , that the manifestation of gods wisdome and power in creating the world did exist , as present with god , before the creation . is not here a proper argumentation . spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici . thirdly , to draw neerer to the discovery of their ignorance . i grant it shall first exist ; but how ? not in duration ; we acknowledge no such priority in god , between the intention of the end , and the intention of the means ; though such a priority in this case is found in man. what then ? i le tell you : they commonly call it a priority of nature . but take heed you doe not apply it to any of the two kindes of priority of nature mentioned by aristotle . for try if you please , and you shall find that none of them can possibly serve the turne ; what then is this priority of nature so called ? i answer , it is only prioritas rationis : and so i formerly said , that the intention of the end is in signo rationis , before the intention of the means . you may farther demand , wherein doth this prioritas rationis consist ? i answer out of durand , it consists in this , that , ratio unius petitur a ratione alterius , and so indeed , ratio mediorum petitur a ratione finis . this generally holds of the intention of end , and means , as well in god , as in the creature . for alwaies the nature of the end duely considered , doth bespeak what shall be the condition of the means . so that this makes no priority of existence at all , neither in duration nor in nature properly so called , but only such a subordination between them , that the reason of the one , that is , the nature or condition of the one , depends upon the nature and condition of the other . now let any sober man judge , whether the salvation of man be required to the procuring of christs merits , and not rather , christs merits are required to the procuring of mans salvation ; which yet is not true of salvation considered simply , but only as to be bestowed after a certain manner , to wit , in the way of justice , and by way of satisfaction made for sinne , that so a man may be saved by grace in despight of sinne . in the close of all they signify that this of theirs in the last place seriously considered will make it appeare , that this doctrine of their adversaries , tends notably to the diminution of christs honour , and to the annihilation of christs merits , to wit , unlesse christs merits be acknowledged the end of mans salvation , and not mans salvation the end of christs merits , christ shall be dishonoured , and his merits annihilated . here they are quite out of breath , and that which is wanting , they leave to be supplied by the serious ( they should say ignorant ) consideration of their proselites . they presume this colour of dishonour redounding hereby to christ , will be sufficient to blow up their adversaries , though it prove of no more force then a squibbe . this carriage of theirs calls to my remembrance , a mad prank plaid by the english at delfe , while they were billeted there , which was told me merrily , by one of the number . one of the souldiers was billeted in an old widdowes house , and another being a goldsmith , told him and another consort of theirs , he had a devise to put mony in all their purses , for he knew how to make a rex-dolar of three-pence sylver , and in that widdowes house they would ply their businesse very securely . to work they went , and casting plates of tinne to the quantity of one of those dolars , and stamping them full and faire , this gold-smith , with the quantity of three pence silver , sylvered them over very fairely , and , least they should seem too light , hangs them up in the chimny in a bagge , that the smoak might bring them to the sadder hew . thus having met with a mine of sylver in their lodging , one is imployed as a merchant-man to goe to the staple of cloth , and he laies out their coyne in cloth , whereof afterwards they made good silver indeed : at length one of them paying a debt of his to a dutchman in delfe , in one of these rex-dolars , he found the dutch to betray some suspicious gestures and interpretations upon the coyne . that was a faire warning to an intelligent man of armes ; and hereupon they get them packing ing away with all speed ; and home they come , and make themselves merry with the relation . in like sort these remonstrants shew a great deale of tinne and trash in these argumentations , and they have not so much as three pence silver to colour it therewithall to cheat the world , if they will be cheated . but they hope the colour of some dishonour by their adversaries doctrine redounding unto christ , will be taken for a peece at least of good silver . i confesse , i am somewhat the more merrily disposed at this time , for being taken off from the midst of a sentence , by the courteous invitation of a gentleman , to come unto him to his inne : he was pleased to entertaine me with such good discourse , that it did not a little refresh my spirits . his reaches were after new discoveries for the advancement of learning ; and endoctrinated me more in one halfe hower , then seventeen years study in the university . for whereas i never learned there , more causes then foure , he was pleased to acquaint me with nine ; which i took some pains to learn without book , and they were these , matter , forme , workman , will , power , time , finding out , accident , end. and most courteously offered himselfe to enlarge on every one of them ; but having left off at a broken sentence , i was desirous to return to my studies theologicall , and to let those philosophicall progresses alone . but i protested unto him seriously , that he had informed me more in the number of causes in a short space , then oxford had done in many years ; he entreated i would consider of them , and i promised i would , and conferre of them too , with all the schollers i companied with ; which he took in very goo part ; and so i took my leave . and finding my spirit not a little elevated with this recreation , i resolved , forbearing my usuall time of supper , to follow these studies close that night , which truly fell out very happily . for one of those causes being found out , otherwise called , invention ( as for judgement , i doe not remember that it was admitted into the number ) i made use of it very happily in finding out , or discovery of the foppery of these remonstranticall argumentations . now i proceed to the second question , as more seasonable to the present occasion . and here first they begin with their former artifice , making infidelity on the part of reprobation , answerable to faith on the part of election , which is most untrue , as formerly i shewed : only the not curing of infidelity by the grace of faith , is made by us subordinate to reprobation ; as the curing of naturall infidelity by the grace of faith , is made by us subordinate to election . but they goe on , as in shaping our tenent at pleasure , so in basting it with their very liberall censures , as absurd and execrable , in such sort , as the bare commemoration of it , they take to be sufficient to represent the horrour of it , and to confute it , and this they commit to the judgement of all the faithfull of christ . and indeed their best strength lyeth in setting forth their adversaries doctrine in such colours , as the devill is painted with . and in this particular , they conceive good hope ( no doubt ) that propitious readers will conceive hereby , that the infidelity of man is made by their adversaries the work of god , as well as faith ; whereas it is well known , that there is so little need of working men to infidelity , that all being borne in sinne , and corrupted and estranged from the life of god , through the fall of adam , infidelity is as naturall and hereditary to a man , as any other corruption . and it is as well known and undeniable , that none can cure it but god , by faith ; but this he cures in whom he will , by giving faith to whom he will , and if he refuse to cure it in any , that , and that alone is enough to make him a vessell of wrath , that so gods glory may be manifested upon him , in the way of justice vindicative . but come we to their arguments . . the first is this . if infidelity followeth reprobation unto destruction , then god cannot in justice destroy reprobates for their infidelity . for there is no greater injustice , then to destroy a man for that , that followeth necessarily upon reprobation which is the work of god. to this i answer . . according to mine ordering the decrees divine . secondly , according to the contra-remonstrants tenent in ordering them . . according to my ordering of the decrees divine ; in no moment of nature or reason is the decree of damnation precedent to the decree of permitting infidelity , or leaving the infidelity of some men uncured , to wit , by denying them faith , by denying the grace of regeneration . but the decrees of creating all in adam , of permitting all to fall in adam , in bringing all men forth into the world in the state of originall sinne , of leaving this originall sinne uncured in them , and last of all , of damning them for their sinnes ; are decrees not subordinate , but coördinate , as decrees de mediis , tending joyntly to one supream end , which is the manifestation of gods glory upon them in the way of justice vindicative ; as also to shew the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy , whom he hath prepared unto glory , to wit , by beholding in others that miserable condition , which through gods meer grace and goodnesse they have escaped . . according to the contra-remonstrants tenent , i answer , . many of them doe not maintaine that infidelity is consequent to the decree of damnation , but in the foresight of god , precedent rather : as appears by the brittish divines their theses de reprobatione ; and alvarez professeth the same . the denyall of grace , and so the permitting of naturall infidelity to remain uncured , they make consequent ( as it seems ) to a negative decree of denying glory . and to the decree of permitting infidelity , they make the foresight of infidelity subsequent ; and this foresight of infidelity they make precedent to reprobation , as it signifies the decree of damnation . and thus farre i agree with them , that in no moment of nature , or signe of reason did god ordain any man to damnation , but for sinne ; and consequently in no moment of nature , or signe of reason , did the decree of damnation goe before the foresight of sinne or infidelity . . but suppose , as these remonstrants collect and pick out their meaning , they make the decree of reprobation , in all poynts proportionable to the decree of salvation , that like as the decree of giving faith , they conceive to be subordinate to the decree of salvation ; so the decree of permitting infidelity , or denying faith ( for herein consists the just proportion , and not as they feigne it , between faith on the one side , and infidelity on the other ) is with them made subordinate to the decree of damnation . then i answer , . their consequence should be this , if the permission of infidelity followeth the decree of damnation , then god cannot in justice damne them for infidelity . now here is no colour of good consequence . . if they reply , that in case infidelity followeth necessarily upon gods permiting of it , the consequence is as good as in case infidelity followed upon reprobation . for even hereby it appears , that infidelity followeth upon reprobation though not immediately , but by the mediation of the divine permission thereof ; but whether it followeth mediately or immediately all is one , as touching the force of the consequence . resp . now to this i reply , granting that all is one , as touching the force of the consequence : but then consider . . all the force of the argument depends not upon the consequution of infidelity , simply unto the decree of damnation , but only upon the necessary consequution thereof . and yet no mention at all was made hereof , in the consequence of the major , but it is brought afterwards over and above most illogically . . in this case all the force of the consequence depends upon the necessary consequution of sinne in generall , or infidelity in speciall , upon gods permitting of it . so that whether gods decree to permit the sinne of infidelity , be antecedent or consequent to the decree of damnation all is one . yet these remonstrants make the force of their argument , to consist only in the subordinating of the decree divine , as touching the permission of infidelity to the decree of damnation , which yet appears by this to be of no force . . but if they hereupon take a new course of argumentation , and dispute thus ; if infidelity followeth necessarily upon gods permitting of it , then god cannot in justice damne a man for infidelity ; pretending no injustice to be greater , then to damne a man for that which followeth necessarily upon permission , which is gods work . resp . i answer . . that thus their former argumentation is cashierd as unprofitable . . we deny this consequence ; and call in no meaner name then arminius himselfe to beare us out in this our deniall . who expressely professeth , that in case god permits a man , velle peccatum , necesse est ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum . exam. pag. . i could adde vorstius also , herein concurring with piscator , perkins , and navarrettus the dominican is as expressely in this as any other ; as also in subordinating it to the decree of reprobation . arminius likewise professeth faith and repentance , nisi deo dante haberi non posse . exam. . and that both of them are denied to the reprobates by the decree of reprobation . see his own words , at deus statuit decreto reprobationis reprobis fidem & paenitentiam non dare . concedo lubens , illam assumptionem , sed rectè intellectam : he laboureth to charme this inconvenient grant of his , but no charme will serve to keep this adder , from stinging and wounding their doctrine of reprobation unto death . he saith , faith is given by way of suasion . we say , that matters nothing ; for so it be given by god wheresoever it be found , and so it be denied to reprobates by the decree of reprobation , we desire no more . we our selves acknowledge , that faith is not given to the elect , but by way of swasion , the word working faith , running in this manner ; repent and believe the gospel ; and whosoever believeth shall be saved . for god hath set forth his sonne to be a propitiation for our sinnes , through faith in his bloud . . at length he proceeds in his charming course , but most unsuccessefully , as whereby his former saying is nothing charmed . his care rather seems to be to eat his own words , as satan devoured his own children . for distinguishing suasion into that which is sufficient , and that which is effectuall : this effectuall suasion , he confesseth to be administred by the decree of election ; but as for that sufficient suasion , though withall he accounts it allwaies ineffectuall , yet he saith it is administred by the decree of providence , not by the decree of reprobation . at length he confesseth , that by the decree of reprobation is denied grace effectuall , that is such a grace as whereupon he foresaw they would believe . now herein i appeale to the judgement of every sober man. take we two men into consideration , the one elect as paul , the other reprobate as esau . of two sufficient graces , the lord foreseeth which of them will prove effectuall with paul , and which ineffectuall ; and he makes choice to give him such a grace , as he foreseeth will prove effectuall . again he foreseeth of two sufficient graces , which of them will prove effectuall with esau and which ineffectuall , and makes choice to afford him only that which he knowes will prove ineffectuall . now what can be the reason hereof , but because he purposeth to shew his mercy in the salvation of the one , and his justice in the damnation of another . before arminius came to this resolution , as expressely to professe , that by the decree of reprobation is denyed grace effectuall , he found himselfe in a streit upon his distinction of grace sufficient and effectuall , and the description of each ; he drew his breath very short ; and therefore to get , as it were , more liberty of ayre , he concluded that discourse with , haec ex augustini sententiâ dicuntur . pag. . and in the next page . hisce autem ita explicatis ex mente augustini & fortè scripturae sensu . but , what , a mischiefe , doth this great doctor mean to tell us ? first , that he willingly grants that , deus statuit decreto reprobationis reprobis fidem & paenitentiam non dare ( provided it be well understood ) and after all this explication , tells us , that all this explication of his is delivered ex sententiâ & mente augustini , and but perchance , ex scripturae sensu , concealing all the while what is his own opinion . is this to give us the right understanding of that assertion ( deus statuit decreto reprobationis reprobis fidem & paenitentiam non dare ) most prejudiciall to his own tenent at first fight , and much more by the distinction following of gratia sufficiens & efficax ; which he so well perceived , that he is content to clap it upon austins back to beare the burthen of it ; and puts it but upon adventure , that it may prove to be the scripture meaning . and in like sort , when , pag. . having proposed two things to be necessarily unfolded by him . primò , de gratiâ sufficiente & efficaci . secundo , de utriusque dispensatione , dispensationisque causis : he leaves off there , giving it over in plain ground . what doth this argue ? but that he manifestly perceived , he was not able in any tollerable manner , to shape this distinction in congruity to his own tenent . let this author well consider this , that talkes so much of our divines unwillingnesse to come to tryall in the poynt of reprobation ; when arminius durst not adventure upon the explicating of his own opinion , touching the distinction of grace sufficient and effectuall , and in giving us the definition of each . the like to have been the course of other arminians , i have known , declining the point of effectuall grace , as a precipice and breakneck unto them : and when others have been put upon it , they have placed it in the grace subsequent , and have not been ashamed to make it consist in this , that god by effectuall grace , doth work in man , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle credere , modo velit , and why not as well , that he workes in man , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere , modo credat , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 resipiscere modo resipiscat . this that i speake , i can shew under the hand of one of them , a great stickler for the arminian cause ; great i say in respect of affection , not of judgement . and i have cause to conceive , that both this authors discourse , and that others i have had to deale withall , is but as a smoake , that for a great part , if not for the most of it , comes out of the same chimney . . let the argument stand as it doth , let infidelity by gods permission follow upon the decree of damnation , and that necessarily . yet consider . . gods permitting of it , is no other then the leaving of it uncured : not that hereby infidelity followeth , which was not before ; but being in all before , as the fruit of that naturall corruption wherein all were borne , as all confesse , as many as concurre against the pelagians , in acknowledging originall sinne . by gods permission of it , it continueth to be uncured ; what actuall sinne is there in the world , or habituall sinne arising thereupon , which god cannot cure if it please him ? if then he will not cure it in some , shall it not be lawfull for him to punish it , where he findes the continuance of it unto the end , without breaking off by repentance ? . suppose all men had power to doe any good thing ; if god will not give them velle quod possunt ( as austin saith he dealt with adam in his innocency , and gave the angels that stood , amplius adjutorium , then he gave the others ; whereby it came to passe , that they stood in obedience when the other fell ) what shall wee say in this case , is it possible that they should velle bonum , if god will not work it in them , of whom the apostle professeth , that he works in us both the will and the deed ? or shall wee hereupon say , they doe not sinne freely ? what shift have they to avoyd this , but either by contradicting the apostle , and saying god doth not work in us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle , or by saying that god doth work in us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle , modò velimus , as plain a contradiction as ever proceeded from the mouth of any , the selfe same act , being made before and after it self ; for the condition is allwaies before the thing conditioned . and is this to work in us the will according to gods pleasure , or according to mans good pleasure ? what is it to say , that grace is given according unto works , if this be not ? . we deny , that any evill act therefore comes not to passe freely , because it comes to passe necessarily , upon supposition of gods denyall of grace , to refraine from it . for like as good works , are not therefore not wrought freely by us , because god by his grace workes us to the performance of them ; ( for who dares deny that it is in gods power to make us work this or that freely ) in like sort , and much more , evill works are not done the lesse freely , because god denies speciall and effectuall grace to abstain from them . for , want of grace doth not take away willingnesse unto that which is evill , but leaves too much rather in man of that kind . as austin saith , that libertas sine gratiâ non est libertas sed contumacia . now where there is contumacy , there is rather too much will then too little . for contumacy is wilfulnesse . . the schooles teach , that liberty of will consists only , in electione mediorum , in the election of means to certain ends . now when the gospel is preached to a carnall man , whose ends are only carnall , as the apostle saith , philip. . . they mind earthly things ; so farre forth as he shall find it serviceable to his carnall ends , he may believe it and make profession of it , as many times hypocrites doe , and sometimes in such sort , as it is hard to distinguish , between a true and an hypocriticall professour . this moved the apostle to exhort the corinthians , famous for their faith , to examine themselves , and prove themselves , whether they were in the faith , that is , in faith unfaigned . for there is not only a grosse hypocrisy , whereunto a mans own heart is privy , but a secret hypocrisy whereof the man himselfe is nothing conscious ; yet such a faith undoubtedly is performable by a naturall man. now when a man rejects the gospell , the faith and profession whereof he finds nothing serviceable to his carnall ends , doth he not judiciously and deliberately , yea and wisely too ( according to the wisdome of flesh and bloud ) reject it ? . austin professeth lib. . de gen. contr . manich. cap. . that all men may believe if they will , and justifies it in his retractations . but if the will of man be corrupt , and averse from believing , we justly say , such a man cannot believe ; as our saviour saith , how can you believe that receive honour one of another , and seeke not the honour that cometh of god alone . joh. . . yet this is an impotency morall only , which is to be distinguished from impotency naturall . for notwithstanding this , it may be truely said , that , all men may believe if they will , and herein consists the naturall liberty of the will. the morall liberty consists , rather in a sanctified inclination unto that which is good , whereby it is freed from the power of sinne and sathan ; then in a power to doe good if they will , and not otherwise . but i never find that arminians doe distinguish these . . it is not sufficient for arminians to conclude , that such a thing upon supposition comes to passe necessarily , therefore it comes not to passe freely . . for upon supposition that god decreed to create the world , the creation of the world came to passe necessarily ; yet simply the world was made by god freely . . in like sort , upon gods foreknowledge that such a man will not believe it followeth necessarily , that such a one will not believe ; and so the like may be said of the most free act that is performed . but will it follow herehence , that it is not done freely ? . in like sort upon the denyall of an effectuall impediment of sinne , unto a man it followeth necessarily , that such a man will sinne , according to arminius his doctrine , and this holds applied to any particular sinne whatsoever . but will it herehence follow according to arminius , that such a sinne is not committed freely ? no-nothing lesse . . the remonstrants second argument is this . what god cannot performe that god cannot will. but god cannot damne a man for infidelity flowing from such a decree of reprobation . resp . . but who saith that infidelity floweth from the decree of reprobation ? not one that i know , but piscator upon these words , yee therefore heare not my words , because yee are not of god. but understand him aright , it is as if he should say , therefore such a man goeth lame , because the physitian will not cure him : yet it is well known the cause of his lamenesse is from within , and perhaps procured by some distemper of his own : yet in case a surgeon could cure him and will not , he may be said to be the cause of lamenesse ; but how ? per modum non removentis . this is well known by the learned to be a kind of cause whereof notice is taken in naturall philosophy . and in this sense and no other , it is well known that piscator makes god the cause of infidelity , and that according to the expresse word of god. but in my judgement piscator mistakes the phrase , to be of god , which he conceives to denote election . i rather take it to denote regeneration , as much as to say , yee therefore he are not my words , because god hath not hitherto by regeneration cured that naturall infidelity which is in you . . but take the argument according to the former expression , god cannot damne a man for that infidelity which is consequent to reprobation ; and then my answer to the former argument in every particular thereof , may be accommodated unto this . . the third followeth . if infidelity flowes from reprobation , then god can neither require faith of reprobates , nor seriously offer salvation unto them , but necessarily counterfeit . for it is manifest hypocrisy , to invite those unto faith and salvation , who are excluded from both by the decree of god. resp . . here again infidelity is made to flow from reprobation ; whereas nothing flowes from reprobation by the doctrine of the contra-remonstranes , but the not curing of mans naturall infidelity , like as the curing of it by faith , is that which flows from election . . i say , there is no simulation at all of god in this . for that wich he proposeth is but this , that , whosoever believeth shall be saved , and whosoever believeth not shall be damned . he sends his ministers to preach this , and to beseech them to believe , and to be reconciled unto god , yea , all they meet with . but for whose sake ? not for the reprobates sake , but for the elects sake , who because they are mixed among reprobates , and god hath not revealed to his ministers , who are elect and who are not ( as neither was it fit he should , many of the ministers themselves , even of those that not only prophecyed in his name , but cast out devills , being reprobates ) therefore it was fit their commission should be generall to preach to all . yea , did not the apostles themselves take notice of this ? doth not paul professe that , he became all things to all that he may save some ? and who were those some , but the very elect of god , as the same apostle elsewhere professeth , saying , i suffer all things for the elects sake . and doth not austin professe that if we knew who were reprobate , we would no more pray for them , then for the devills ? de civit. dei lib. . cap. . . the fourth and last . if incredulity followes the decree of reprobation , then god considered the reprobates in his counsell of reprobation , either as creatable , or as created in the state of innocency , or as falne into originall sinne . sed falsa sunt haec omnia . all these things are false . and these things , he saith , are delivered , contra absurdam , detestabilem , atque abominabilem sententiam . resp . here is froth enough of words , but a very hungry discourse for substance of argumentation throughout . . yet as i said , all this nothing toucheth them , who albeit they maintaine that god of his meer pleasure , hath mercy on some , giving them faith and repentance ( considering all in the corrupt masse ) and of his meer pleasure hardens others ( no worse in nature then the former ) by denying them faith and repentance , yet as reprobation signifies the decree of damnation , doe permit thereunto the foresight of finall perseverance in sinne . . according to my ordering of gods decrees , who conceive mankind not yet created to be the object of all gods decrees , they being eternall , and but one act in god , and that act his very essence , and all other things being temporall . i doe not maintain that the decree of damnation , is in any moment of nature or reason , before the consideration of mans finall impenitency . as neither doe i conceive it to be after this , but both simultaneous ; for as much as the decree of permitting all to fall in adam , together with the decree of finall leaving some therein , and the decree of damning them for sinne , i take not to be subordinate , but coordinate and simultaneous . . whether we take the first-way for shaping the object of predestination , or the second , or the third , i answer . . the difference hereabout is in my judgement meerly logicall , nothing theologicall ; the resolution whereof according to generall rules , is easily made by light of nature , if once it be agreed upon in divinity , what is gods end both on the part of election , and on the part of reprobation , and what are the means that tend unto those ends . . which way soever we take of the three , i never found any reason given by arminians of any force to take us from it , as i have justified in my vindiciae , as touching the first-way ; and in my examination of the conference between arminius and junius , as touching the second-way ; and in my answer to corvinus against tilenus , as touching the third-way , and therein , i trust , routed and profligated the reasons of arminius , proposed against the first and last-way , but chiefly against the first , in the declaration of his opinion before the states . now i returne to the author of this discourse , and to the remainder of his second motive , from whence i have digressed . i was here passing over unto the third instance , to wit , of the proceedings in the synod of dort ; but upon my looking into the history thereof , to prepare my selfe for an answer thereunto , ere i was a ware , i lighted upon the reasons of that the contra-remonstrants motion to be spared , preferred unto the state. and they utterly deny what is here cast upon them , namely , that they deprecated at all , that they might be spared from conferring upon the poynt of reprobation . but whereas the remonstrants had incumbred the point of election and reprobation with seaven questions , which pertained not to the state of the controversy concerning the first article , and being also imperfect and intricate for the most part , and proposed to this end , to draw their adversaries away from the true state of the question ; they desired to be spared from answering unto them . and upon this petition of theirs it pleased the states , that leaving those thorny questions , they should come to the handling of the articles . this is set down in the preface to those acta synodalia , set forth by the authority of the states . fol. . pag. . for after the proposing of these two questions to the remonstrants , as touching the decree of predestination . . whether the intire decree of predestination were contained in this article , namely , that god did from everlasting decree to save believers , which no man denies . . whether they thought faith & perseverance therein , did precede election , as the causes or conditions thereof . after the remonstrants had answered affirmatively unto them both ; hereupon they bring in their seaven , for the most part , intricate questions . reponebant deinde septem alias tum de electione tum de reprobatione , questiones , ad quas a pastoribus à classibus deputatis responderi volebant . quae cum ad controversiae de primo articulo statum non spectarent , etiam mutilae atque intricatae pleraeque essent ; eumque in finem ab illis proponerentur , ut hoc modo a praecipuo controversiae statu rectaque agendi ratione , in ambages ad ducerent . pastores expositâ per libellum supplicem illust . ordd. iniquâ hâc agendi ratione , non quidem deprecati sunt , ne de reprobatione sententiam suam manifestarent ( uti remonstrantes improbè saepius ipsis objectarunt ) sed disertè sententiam suam quantum ad ecclesiarum pacem atque aedificationem sufficere existimarent , non tantum vivâ voce sed & scripto declararunt . se nimirum cum aeternum electionis singularium personarum decretum ponunt , simul quoque ponere aeternum de reprobatione & rejectione quarundam singularium personarum decretum , quum fieri nequeat ut sit electio , quin simul quòque sit aliqua reprobatio aut derelictio . difficiles omnes circa hunc articulum quaestiones temere excutere , nihil aliud esse quam inutilibus disputationibus & nihil profuturis litibus , ecclesiam replere , ejusque pacem perturbare . declarationem suam hanc libello supplice expressam , moderatis omnibus , pace●que amantibus ingeniis , sufficere debere : credi videlicet ac doceri ab ipsis , deum neminem condemnare , imò verò ne statuisse quidem condemnare quenquam nisi justè propter propria ipsius peccata : placuit itaque illust . ordd. ut missis illis spinosis quaestionibus , ad articulorum pertractationem deveniretur . and pag. . & . i find this objection proposed by the remonstrants in these words . pag. . in collatione haghiensi libello supplice illust . hollandiae & westfriziae ordinibus exhibito , deprecati sunt contra-remonstrantes ne de reprobatione ageretur : & more at large pag. . thus , ipsi contra-remonstrantes cum in colloquio haghiensi jussi essent , ad interrogata quaedam nostra de reprobatione respondere magistratui morem gerere gravati fuerint , usque adeò ut collationem caeptam abrumpere se malle profiterentur quàm ut summarum potestatum imperio se constringi paterentur , nihil aliud conscientiae suae praetexentes quam quod ecclesiae aedificationi obfuturam eam agendi rationem judicarent . now to this pag. . festus hominus , one present in that conference , stands up and answers , exposuitque paucis quàm non bonâ fide haec de illis dicerentur . se libello supplice non fuisse deprecatos , ne de reprobatione ageretur : caeterùm quia remonstrantes subdolè in ipso collationis initio , septem questionibus spinosis ac minime necessariis non tantum ad reprobationis , sed electionis quoque doctrinam spectantibus , à recto agendi ordine contra-remonstrantes in ambages adducere conarentur . contra-remonstrantes libello supplice apud illust-ordd . de tam iniquâ agendi ratione conquestos fuisse atque ut remonstrantibus mandaretur , ne extra justam agendi rationem jam inchoatam evagarentur petiisse . de reprobatione autem contra-remonstrantes quantum ad aedificationem satis erat , sententiam suam clarè ibidem explicasse uti scriptorum editorum fide probari potest . idem etiam reverendus & doctissimus vir , d. joannes becius qui & ipse huic interfuerat collationi , suo praesens comprobabat testimonio . now i come to the synod of dort. . this author saith the remonstronts were there warned by the president of the synod , ut de electione potius quàm de odiosâ reprobationis materiâtagerent . and truly at first i wondered not a little , that the president of that synod should account , the matter of reprobation ( which is as much as to say , the doctrine of reprobation ) an odious matter , an odious doctrine . for we commonly signify hereby , such a doctrine as deserves to be hated ; but i thought withall , that they might expresse rather , what is the condition of it in the event , namely , that it is entertained with hatred , not of all neither , nor of any of those , that submit their judgements to the word of god ; but rather of those , and of those only , who follow the judgement of flesh and bloud . yet i thought good to enquire into the truth of the fact here mentioned ; and i find it in the page mentioned , and how the remonstrants themselves doe expresse this , even as here it is expressed , thus , a reverendo praeside moniti sumus ut à negativis enunciationibus abstineremus & de electione potius quàm odiosâ reprobationis materiâ ageremus . yet i confesse this did not satisfy me ; for why should this author make choyce to expresse it in the remonstrants termes , rather then in the words of the president himselfe . therefore i turne to the beginning of that session , being sess . . there i find this particular , submonuit & praeses ut potius quaestionibus illis inhaererent , quae circa suavem de electione doctrinam versarentur , quàm ut d● odiosè doctrinam de reprobatione exagitarent . now i find a great deale of difference between professing the matter of reprobation , or the doctrine hereof to be odious , and admonishing to spare the exagitation thereof after an odious manner . this indeed being their usuall course , to make it as odious as they can , like as arminius , doctrinam de praedestinatione odiosam reddere conabatur , as it is professed in the preface to those act. synod . fol. . pag. . and fol. . pag. . they professe in like manner of the remonstrants , namely , that in their remonstrance they endeavoured , illust . ordd. odiosam reddere doctrinam ecclesiarum reformatarum , and that not only , de divinâ predestinatione , but also de gratiâ dei & sanctorum perseverantiâ , but all this malâ fide , nec sine apertis , atrocibusque calumniis . moreover i find , sess . . pag. . this decree of the synode gratifying the remonstrants , and yeelding to their motion made , which was , that they might have liberty to treat as well of reprobation as of election , thus , quoniam remonstrantes aliquoties professi sunt , se per conscientiam in synodo subsistere ulterius non posse , nisi prius caveatur ipsis fore , ut de electione & reprobatione , eâ ratione quam in thesibus & scriptis suis hactenus exhibitis proposuerunt , in posterùm agatur . synodus quò magis ipsis fiat satis , publice ac coràm omnibus declarat , statuisse sese ac statuere sententiam ipsorum , non de electione modò , verum etiam de reprobatione expendere atque examinare . quantum nempe in conscientiâ ad dei gloriam , aedificationem & tranquillitatem ecclesiae , omniumque conscientiarum posse ac debere satis esse , ipsa judicaret . ad agendi verò modum , qui hic est servandus & ordinem quod attinet , suum esse de eo dispicere , non autem fratrum remonstrantium qui huc sunt citati , quicquam praescribere , existimat . this decree being read to the remonstrants , they refused to give way unto it . the session contains the altercation thereabout , between the synod and them . they forsooth would prescribe to the synod de modo agendi , the synod must not prescribe to them . and they professe against it sess . . pag. . in this manner , nec satisfit nobis si dicatur synodum permissuram , ut nostram de reprobatione sententiam tractemus quoad illa ipsa ad gloriam dei , aedificationem ecclesiarum , conscientiarum tranquillitatem fore judicabit . nam hâc ipsâ restrictione , nobis praeciditur libertas & plenaria sententiae nostrae defensio , & contrariae impugnatio . praeterquam quòd non levis suspicandi nobis data sit occasio , synodum , ubi nos de electione disserentes audiverit , nequaquam permissuram ut contra-remonstrantium & eorum quos illi pro orthodoxis habent , de reprobatione sententiam prout necessarium judicabimus , ad incudem revocari . hereupon the synod entreats the judgement of forraine divines ; and they all with one consent professe , tantam remonstrantibus libertatem ad defensionem causae suae concessam esse , quantâ ex ratione & dignitate synodi citatis concedi posset . ac proinde nullam esse causam cur synodicum decretum mutandum videretur , aut cur remonstrantes querelam instituerent , vel authoritatem hujus synodi subterfugerent . nihil illis esse imperatum quod ullo modo conscientias ipsorum gravare posset . ac proinde conscientiae velum frustra pervicaciae obtendi . abundè iis omnibusque modis satisfactum jam esse . absolutam illam , nullisque circumscriptam limitibus libertatem quam petunt , à synodo concedi ipsis non posse . aequum esse ut certis sese legibus submittant , quibus , si exorbitent , coërceantur . nay in the next session , which is sess . . there is a representation made of their unreasonable demand in these words . professi sunt sibi agendi modum a synodo praescriptum , iniquum videri . sibi permitti velle non tantum primo loco , sed & circa omnes articulos & theses , singulaque argumenta de sententiâ contra-remonstrantium , & corum quos illi pro orthodoxis habent , quoad reprobationem agere , quia in hoc argumento calceus illos maximè urgeat . hereupon the opinions of the forraigne divines were required , to wit , whether it were fit to yeeld unto them , as to treat of reprobation , before they treated of election , qui consentientibus declarabant suffragiis , ab omni ratione & methodo esse alienum id quod remonstrantes peterent , ut prius de reprobatione quàm de electione agere sibi liceret . their judgements hereupon are here represented severally and at large ; first of our brittish divines , then of the palatine divines , then of the divines of the land of hesse , then of the helvetians , then of those who were of the correspondency of weteraw , then of those of geneva , then of those of breme , and lastly of those of emden . . upon the former bald and base pretences , as if , conclusum esset contrà manichaeos , the author proceeds crowing magnificentissimè , and demanding in this manner . can this doctrine be a truth , and yet blush at the light which makes all things manifest , especially considering these things ? . that reprobation is a principall head of practicall divinity by the well , or ill stating , or ordering of which , the glory of god , and good of religion , is much promoted or hindered . . that there is such a necessary connexion between the points of election and reprobation ( both being parts of predestination ) that the one cannot be well handled without the other . . that reprobation was the chiefe cause of all the uproares in the churches of that time . . that it was accused with open mouth and challenged of falshood , and therefore bound in justice to purge it selfe of the crimination . . that it may easily be defended , if ( as some say ) it be such an apparent truth . for , nihil est ad defendendum puritate facilius , saith s t hierome . now albeit for the discovery of the vile vanity of this conclusion , i need take no other pains , then to appeal to your , or any sober mans due consideration of the premises duely examined according to my former answer ; yet i think good not to passe it over without such particular consideration as it deserves . first , i pray consider , what is that light that makes all things manifest ? is it the light of conference ? in the conference of mompelgard there were diverse other things disputed of , besides this of predestination . now is the truth manifested hereby in all those particulars ? if it be , i pray , let him signify on whose side , whether on the part of jacobus andreas , or on the part of beza ? to whom is it made manifest ? to either side , or only to that side , on whose side this author conceives the truth to stand ? doe you not manifestly perceive the crudity of this conceit ? nay , who seeth not , that it is not the condition of conference , but the quality rather and ability of the conferrers , that is apt to manifest the truth . and such men are able to manifest , as well out of conference in their discourses , either positive , or controversiall , as in conference ; yea , and farre better ; those discourses being more quietly carried , and more free from altercation , then conferences ; especially in case they meet with malignant opposites . and indeed it is the word of god alone , which is that spirituall light , which giveth manifestation to all spirituall truth . and consequently neither are they to be censured as blushing at the light , that prefer to write quietly of these controversies , then to conferre about them in some cases ; or that preferre conference by the penne as beza did , before conference by word of mouth , though this better pleased the lipps of jacobus andreas . yet neither beza did refuse to yeeld to andreas his own way , neither did either the contra-remonstrants at the haghe conference , or the divines of dort , refuse to treat of reprobation , as well as election , as formerly i have shewed by authenticall evidences . but suppose beza and his fellowes , whether two or three had altogether declined to conferre at all , as in my judgement they had good reason to refuse , must this be censured their blushing at the light ? austin professeth as i have formerly vouched him , that there may be many causes of forbearing to deliver the truth at some times . he little dreamed of exposing the truth thereby to such a censure , as if it blushed at the light . and if some few might be justly censured as blushing at the light , must all for their sakes , by the rules of justice , be made obnoxious to the same censure , and not the doctors only , but the doctrine it selfe ? is it not apparent that a true and sound doctrine , may be weakly apprehended by many , though learned , and veritas est temporis filia , and the accurate handling and maintaining of the truth in plainer points then this of reprobation , comes not to perfection , but by degrees , and after much ventilating of it in a ruder manner . thus i think i have crackt the crowne of this conclusion ; i may proceed with the greater facility to the rest . . that reprobation is an head to any part of practicall divinity , i never read , nor heard till now . but yet in every theoreticall poynt , as touching the nature of god and his attributes , by the true doctrine thereof , the glory of god , and good of religion is promoted , & by the erronious doctrine thereabouts it is as much impaired . for like as it is blasphemy , to attribute that unto god , which doth not become him ; so is it blasphemy also , to deny unto him that which doth become him . as for the entertaining or refusing conference thereabouts , i have already spoken sufficiently ; yet two particulars more i have to deliver , which i purpose to subjoyne to the end of those five considerations here distinguished , as remarkable ones , if my memory failes me not . . a connexion i grant there is , between election and reprobation , and the clearing of the truth in the one , doth give light unto the other . but which of these is to be handled first , that the clearing of the truth therein , may give light to the stating of the other , i should think no sober man would make question . yet the remonstrants at the synod of dort , were eager to begin with reprobation , but were therein generally censured by the consent of forraine divines that assisted there . but that one of them cannot be handled without the other , is a palpable untruth , as appears by the very practice of this author himselfe , and his own carriage in this businesse . for he undertakes only the poynt of reprobation . . as touching the third particular , in charging the doctrine of reprobation , with being the chiefe cause of all the uproares in the church at that time ; this author takes to himselfe a strange liberty of discourse . we read and heare of no small stirres in the church of rome , between the dominicans and the jesuits ; but i never read that the jesuits laid to the dominicans charge , that their doctrine as touching the predetermination of the creatures will to every act thereof , was the cause of any uproare in the church of rome : but to the contrary rather . i read that in the contention between the dominicans and jesuits in rome it selfe , wherein valentianus through some heat in disputation , caught a feaver whereof he dyed within three daies after ; of the relation whereof , made by one pet ( that had been a priest ) in oxford i was sometimes an eare witnesse . the jesuits were rather taxed for their heterodoxy in the poynt de auxiliis , as petrus mattheus in his history reports it . and from d. jacksons mouth , i have heard what a spaniard should deliver upon the mention of molina the jesuit , namely , that he was the man , qui tantos tumultus excitavit , to wit , in spain . but as for churches protestant , he doth well to limit his crimination to a certain time . for the stirre that was raised by huberus in the lutheran churches , was neither caused nor occasioned by our doctrine concerning reprobation . huberus his cause was , a pertinacious standing for an universall election . it seems he hath relation only to the haghe conference , and the uproares , as he calls them , amongst the states only , and their particular , or provinciall congregations alone ( as it seems ) he denominates the churches . now let us consider , who made those uproares , were they the contra-remonstrants , or the remonstrants only ? if he chargeth this upon the contra-remonstrants , let him prove it , least he be justly censured for one of those wild beasts , an emperour was sometimes warned to beware of , they were the slanderers . if the remonstrants were the authors of these uproares , how doth he prove that the doctrine of reprobation , was the chiefe cause of them , were not those arminians voluntary agents in those uproares ? if they conceived their opposites doctrine to be unsound , could they not oppose it without uproares , without violent proceedings ? againe , their opposites doctrine , was it never received or preached 'till those daies ? or was there any uproare made thereupon , 'till arminius his innovating ? and is that the chief cause of an uproare , which hath no such consequent ensuing untill it meets with some turbulent spirits , which begin to stirre as innovators in a church or state. and yet was reprobation that alone , whereupon they stirred ? is it not apparent , that about the five articles commonly so called , they conferred alike ? but he saith it was the chiefe cause , and only saith it , yet molinaeus professing reprobation to proceed , upon foresight of finall impenitency , as in truth it cannot be denied , but that as the contra-remonstrants professed , as well in that conference at the hague , as in the synod of dort , that god did never intend to damne any man of ripe years , but for finall perseverance in infidelity and impenitency . did their contentions hereupon , either totally cease or in part ? but such criminations are nothing strange . we know after what manner of greeting wicked ahab saluted the holy prophet elijah . art thou he that troubleth israel ? but he spared not to answer him , i am not he that troubleth israel , but thou and thy fathers house . in the like manner were paul and silas entertained act. . . when being caught and brought before the magistrates , heard such an accusation made against them , these men which are jewes trouble our citty : and preach ordinances which are not lawfull for us to receive , neither to observe , seeing we are romans . and no marvaile if the devill roares , when he falls from heaven , like lightning , and his kingdome is shaken . but because he putts us to it in this crimination , i think it fit to give a tast of the violent proceedings in those parts , as i find them ordered in the preface to the synod . dordrac . set forth by the authority of the states . and because uproares concern insurrections against government in church or state ; the first particular i observe of this nature is , fol. . pag. . where after arminius had been much suspected , and divers times urged to declare his opinion , upon certain poynts which hitherto he had declined , saving in a false manner , his protestation in the issue , proving directly contrary to his practice . the rectors of particular churches , sowred with the leaven of his doctrine , openly refuse to subscribe the confession of the catechisme , though the synod of south-holland commanded them . pastores arminii sententiam amplexi passim in classibus recusabant mandato synodi de subscriptione confession is , ac catecheseos morem gerere . here we have the begining of a manifest schisme . now consider we the progresse hereof . hereupon a resolution was made ( it being high time ) by the states , for the calling of a nationall synode , in the yeare . about november . the execution whereof , was by divers practises of the arminian faction , delayed , and put off from time to time , for the space of years . fol. . pag. . arminius himselfe acknowledgeth , de heterodoxiâ suâ varios rumores omnes jam ecclesias pervasisse , incendiumque à se suscitatum ipsa ecclesiae tecta super are dici . fol. . pag. . in the mean time , anno . the states declared their purpose was , to call a provinciall synode in october following , and signification hereof being made , the rectors of particular congregations , as many as were addicted to arminius , being admonished to manifest their considerations in their severall deanaries , that so they might be fairely sent to the synod that approached . they put this off also . illi vero ut antea , ita nunc quoque singuli consuetis tergiversationibus pariter hoc detrectarunt . the like refusall was afterwards made in the synod of south-holland , though they were urged by the synod to declare themselves ( for as for the provinciall synod , that was deferred two months longer . ) whereupon the synod decreed , that they should give up their considerations within a months space , or be obnoxious to censure ecclesiasticall . hereupon was means made by utenbogard , for letters from the states unto those pastors , to send up unto them their considerations sealed , that so they might reserve them to the provinciall synod shortly to be held . in these proceedings a man may easily smell barnavells hand all along . hereupon came forth at length arminius his declaration before the states . in answer whereunto gomarus riseth up , as there we may read , fol. . pag. . and amongst other courses of arminius , makes relation of this , as how spretis synodorum classium & prebyteriorum judiciis ac decretis ad supremi magistratus tribunal prima instantia prosiluisse , ibique querelas atque accusationes suas adversus ecclesiarum doctrinam proposuisse , artibusque aulicis favorem sibi ecclesiis verò odium consiliare diligenter studiisse . and hereupon besought the states , that seeing contentiones gliscerent , ecclesiae turbarentur , civesque in partes distraherentur , the nationall synod which they had promised might be gathered together with the first ; which yet by the practice of utenbogard and others was still delayed . hereupon arminius his faction grew so bold , as publiquely to preach against the received doctrine , as bertius spared not to declare himselfe ; but wherein ? mark i pray the article well , because this author drawes all to reprobation . now the articles whereupon bertius declared himselfe , to differ from the doctrine received , were , de justificatione hominis coram deo , de praedestinatione , de gratiâ dei , & libero arbitrio , de perseverantiâ fidelium ; and upon these very points afterwards , proceeded the conference between arminus and gomarus before the states . and one venator spared not publiquely to broach pelagian and socinian errours . whereupon he was suspended by the churches of north-holland . in spite of whom notwithstanding , he continued his courses of preaching . now whereas the orthodox pastors in the deanary of alomar considering he was lawfully suspended , and withall a man of impure life , refused to admit him into their company . hereof complaint was made to the states , and by utenbogards practice a mandate obtained from them , that they should admit him . now when the states considering the present exigent , were easily like to condescend to a provinciall synode , the arminians moved , that the deputies to be sent thither , should not be appointed thereunto by the churches , according to the usuall course , but only by the states , presuming hereby , that either none , but such as favoured their cause should be sent , or at least such as were lesse alienated from their opinion . fol. . p. but though they could not effect this , yet by their practice it came to passe , that the calling , not only of a provinciall synode , but of the yearely synods were hindered . shortly after this , finding what liberty they had , they met together of their own accord privily , sine magistratus supremi authoritate magno numero . atque ibi inter se initâ per subscriptionem nominum confaederatione seu conspiratione , manifestum in ecclesiis reformatis schisma instituunt . that year came forth the remonstrance . upon this by the practice of the remonstrants , vorstius is brought in to be a professor in the place of arminius . for as touching the exceptions taken against him , the remonstrants professed before the states , he had given them good satisfaction , fol. . pag. . then follow their practises for the removing of such rectors from their churches , as were their opposites , and obtruding upon the people such as were of their own party . at alcmar , adolphus venator , a man of impure life and faith , moved the people to armes against the magistrate , whereby he was driven to relinquish his place , and others brought in of venator his faction . fol. . pag. . hereupon the elders and deacons of that place were removed , and two pastors , the one having formerly executed his ministry amongst them for fifty years continuance . grevincovius in like sort , with the magistracy of rotterdam , to deprive his colleague there cornelius geselius of his ministry first , and then by their sergeants to cast him out of the citty . utenbogard sends remonstrants into utrecht , and amongst others , jacobum quendam taurinum hominem turbulentum & saevum . fol. . pag. . in gelderland also the ordinary and annuall synodicall assemblies were hindred by the practice of utenbogard , like as still they continued withall their art to hinder the calling of a nationall synod , so often promised by the states , and so many years deferred . william of nassau moved both utenbogard on the one side , and festus hommius on the other side , to consider of a course how these stirres might be pacified . to which motion festus hommius makes answer , that in case the remonstrants differed from the churches only in five articles , he could think of a course whereby some peace might be made in the interim , untill a nationall synod were gathered . this is the more observeable , because this author layeth all the cause of those uproares ( as he calls them ) upon reprobation . but he professeth they had great cause to suspect the remonstrants differed from them in greater points of moment . and these are afterwards declared to be these , fol. . pag. . de perfectâ christi pro peccatis satisfactione , de justificatione hominis coràm deo , de fide salvificâ , de peccato originali , de certitudine salutis , & de perfectione hominis in hâc vitâ . and whereas , they desired the remonstrants would deale clearly and make known what their opinion was in those poynts : utenbogard having laboured to have a hearing before the states alone , there traduceth the actions of his brethren in demanding the declaration of their minds hereupon , as if this were to bring in a new kind of inquisition amongst them , not to be endured . and hereupon obtaines of the states , that no such declaration should be required at their hands . and more then that , finding the deputies of the synode by their continuall sollicitations with the states ( as it well became them in their places ) to be most prejudiciall to their proceedings , they brought it so to passe , that like as formerly their annuall synods were hindered , so now it was forbidden to the deputies themselves , thenceforth to take any such stile unto them , or performe any such office as whereabout they were then imployed . and so the relator proceeds in setting downe their insolent courses untill at length perceiving , that by the mediation of the king of great brittaine , all for the most part , inclined to the convocation of a nationall synod , they fell plainly on , upon these desperate counsells openly professing that the calling of a nationall councell , would prove prejudiciall to the majesty and liberty of the provinces , manifesting themselves hereby utterly averse from such a course ; which yet hath been most in use in the church of god , and that of ancient times , for the pacifying of contentions arising in matter of religion . i professe , i nothing affect to spend time in such searches and relations , i had rather imploy it another way , but you see i am driven unto it , to represent the unshamefased condition of this narration . . and whereas he saith , it was accused with open mouth , and challenged of falshood , it is apparent that the remonstrants would very well have rested contented with a mutuall toleration of one another in their severall waies . for when utenbogard and festus hommius were to meet together , and treat upon some faire course of composition , utenbogard , together with those of his side , professed they knew no other course for setling peace , but my mutually tolerating one the other ; festus hommius and others with him on the other side , professed they knew no better course then convocation of a nationall synode , and in the interim to tolerate one another , provided they would declare themselves to differ from the received doctrine in the church , in no other points then in the five articles . but how they carried themselves herein refusing to declare themselves , i have formerly shewed . and farther , in the pursuit of this their practice to enjoy toleration , it is farther storied , by what means they procured a letter from king james to farther them therein , and after that an edict to that purpose from some of the states . and consider farther , if any amongst us should rise up , and confederate themselves and impugne any five articles of the church of england , and accuse us for maintaining erronious doctrine therein , and challenge us for falshood , if they doe it with never so open mouth , shall this be sufficient to justify them and condemne us , if wee doe not come to a tryall with them to dispute the case , though wee are the possessours , they the intruders and innovators ? wee maintaining no other doctrine then that which is by authority established amongst us , and they which impugne the doctrine received , are they not usually judged amongst us , as such who are rather to be censured then disputed with ? and withall consider , that this mutua tolerantia , which the remonstrants so much pressed and were so glad to enjoy , was with greatest instance stood for long after the conference at the hague . lastly , how often was arminius himselfe questioned and called upon to give satisfaction for his heterodoxies , and how often did he decline it ? when at the first , motion was made for his surrogation into the place of iunius beind deceased , then the suspicions of his heterodox breaking forth , and they of amsterdam not well likeing to let him goe from them , amongst whom at that time , he exercised his ministry ; and that because they observed his luxuriant and novelizing wit , which was like to breed dangerous effects in an university : at length upon the great instance both of utenbogard and arminius himselfe , way was made for him unto the chayre , upon condition he should conferre with gomarus upon some chief heads of doctrine , and by a round declaration of his mind thereon , remove all suspicion of heterodoxy , having formerly by a solemne protestation given his word , that in case he had any singular opinion of his own , he would not spread it . hereupon he made open profession , that he condemned the chiefe pelagian opinions concerning grace naturall , the strength of free-will , originall sinne , the perfection of man in this life , and predestination , and that he approved all those disputes , which austin and other fathers had written against them ; and that in his judgement the pelagian errours were rightly refuted by those fathers , and withall promised , that he would teach nothing that differed from the received doctrine of the churches ; and hereupon he was admitted to a professors place in the university . in the beginning whereof he laboured by all means to quench all suspicion of heterodoxy in himselfe , and maintained the doctrine of the reformed churches , de satisfactione christi , de fide justificante , de justificatione per fidem , de perseverantiâ verè fidelium , de certitudine salutis , de perfectione hominis in hac vitâ &c. all which he afterwards contradicted , as also did his followers . this i say , he then at the first maintained publiquely , contrà sententiam suam ( which let every man judge , whether it be not as much as to say , against his own conscience ) and corvinus is alleaged as in a certain writing of his set forth in low-dutch ingeniously professing as much , praefat , in synod . dordracen , authoritate ordinum fol. . p. . but after he had been a yeare or two in the place , he begins to unmaske himselfe , and by his publique lectures , and chiefly by his dealing with his schollers in private , his heterodoxy discovered it selfe . here upon the deputies from the churches of south and north holland are sent unto him , who acquaint him with the rumours that went of him , praying him that if he disliked ought in the doctrine received , he would sincerely declare it unto his brethren , to the end , either by a friendly conference , he might receive satisfaction , or the whole businesse might lawfully be put over to the consideration of a synod . arminius his answer was , that he never gave any just cause , why such rumour should be spread of him , neither was it wisdome for him to treat with them as with deputies , that should make relation of the whole matter to a synod , though as private persons , he refused not to conferre with them , provided that in case they differed , no relation hereof should be made unto a synod . the church of leyden also admonished him , that there might be a conference between him and his colleagues , before the presbytery of that church . to them he answered he could not yeeld thereto , without leave from the gurators of the university , and that he perceived not , that any benefit was like to redound unto the church by such a conference . at another time fol. . p. . being entreated by the professors and pastors with great earnestnesse , that if he had ought to say against the doctrine received in their confession and catechisme , he would freely and brotherly communicate it unto them , promising their endeavours to give him full satisfaction , or if not so , yet that he and his colleagues under certain conditions might come to a faire agreement , to live together in peace , and that the reconciliation being made , nothing which passed between them should be divulged . the answer he made , was this , it was no wise part for him to yeeld to their motion , neither was he bound thereto , the present meeting being not ordained unto any such purpose , fol. . p. . gomarus openly tells him , how it became him to declare his opinion , neque ejusmodi subterfugiis diutius hâc in re uti , & fol. . p. . before the states he represents his continuall practice thereunto , in concealing his opinion , his words are these , quibus insuper artibus opiniones suas disseminare ; publicè scilicet ab ecclesiis rogatum obtestatumque , sententiam suam occultare , privatim vero pastoribus quos in eam pertrahi posse speraret , ac discipulis suis diligentèr eam inculcare ; argumenta nostrorum praecipua quibus astrui doctrina orthodoxa soleret enervare , jesuitarum verò aliorumque adversariorum , quibus doctrinam ecclesiarum reformatarum oppugnant confirmare , varias de doctrinae receptae veritate dubitationes discipulorum animis ingerere , eandemque cum doctrinâ heterodoxâ prius , quasi in aequilibrio suspendere , ac deinde prorsus rejicere , nullam hactenus sinceritatis ac consensus in doctrinâ , licet saepius ab ecclesiis amanter fraterneque rogatum declarationem edere voluisse . now let any indifferent person compare the carriage of arminius the innovator , with the carriage of the contra-remonstrants , standing for the doctrine heretofore received , and judge impartially which of them betrayes the greater distrust of the integrity of their cause . . as for the easinesse of defending it , if it be not , or were not so in their opinion , who are here pretended to have declined the sifting of it , what is that to the purpose ? then who are they , who say it may so easily be defended ? i never read any hitherto , who doe not acknowledge a great mystery in the divine providence . and from the daies of anselme unto this present day , it hath ever been accounted ( in my observation ) a very difficult poynt to accord predestination divine , with the liberty of mens wills . but put the case it may easily be defended , as of evident truth by the word of god , yet notwithstanding , if it be found harsh to mens affections , are they likely to admit it with such ease ? i should think it ought to be put out of question , that god hath mercy on whom he will , in bestowing faith and repentance upon them , and thereby curing their naturall infidelity and hardnesse of heart , as also that god hardneth whom he will , leaving their infidelity and hardnesse of heart uncured ; yet when flesh and bloud riseth up against this doctrine thus , why then doth god complaine ; ( to wit , of mans disobedience ) for who hath resisted his will ? and the apostle addresseth hereunto no other answer but this , o man who art thou who disputest with god ? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump , to make one vessell unto honour , another unto dishonour ? is flesh and bloud , i pray , apt to rest satisfied with this ? now as touching the two things i promised to adde , they are these . . i pray consider whether in all this , this author doth not very judiciously pronounce sentence against himselfe . for you know , your own motion you made unto him , and the promise he made unto you ; and i pray consider how answerable hereunto hath been his performance . the certain controversies , as touching which he professeth change of opinion , what are they , but the five articles so much agitated between the remonstrants , and the contra-remonstrants ? doe you not perceive how he makes choyce only of reprobation to grate upon ? is he not content to lye close as touching foure of them ? what is this , but according to his language , the coveting of corners ? and what willingnesse of abideing the tryall doth this manifest ? yet he pleaseth himselfe in a conceit , of being as free from guile , as david was when he offered himselfe to the lords tryall , and thereupon advanceth himselfe to the greater liberty of censuring others , such as beza , and musculus , and their fellowes , together with the contra-remonstrants , as too full of that guile , whereof himselfe , by virtue not of his free-will , but of a grace of god of his shapeing , is voyd . this is an usuall course with those of his spirit , whereof i have had plentifull experience in this very kind . for if you believe them , all the arminians geese are swannes , and all our swannes are geese in comparison to them . he hopes you will not think he hates the light , or refuseth to come to the light , ( in his phrase ) this is the censure he liberally bestowes upon his opposites . for though some of our divines are willing enough to treat of the five articles , yet to treat of reprobation , which is a part of one of those , they are not so willing , but this young master in israel , out of the plerophorious conceit of his own integrity and sufficiency , is very willing to treat of this of reprobation , though he leaves all the rest alone . yet i pray make the scales even , what instance can be given , i doe not say of beza , musculus , or any one of the contra-remonstrants , but of any one of the like condition to himselfe , that being entreated by a friend ( as this author was by you ) to shew the reasons , why he hath changed his mind from arminianisme , to the opposite opinions , hath carried himselfe , as this author hath done , to give his reasons only on the part of one of them , and yet passeth his censure so prodigally on others for refusing triall , by the way implying , a glorious ostentation of his own performances to the contrary , as if he had done a notable piece of service , whereas all that he hath performed hereon , by proofe from testimonies of scripture , are little more then two leaves , and therein also as it were purposely , declines all those places , wherein the scripture speaketh directly of election , predestination , and of that , which in effect , is all one with reprobation . such places pregnantly speaking hereof , he purposely declines , and yet he calls the places he insists upon , pregnant testimonies ; and indeed so they are , but nothing at all to the purpose of predestination , election , or reprobation . yet i marvaile not he is so well conceited of his atchievements . i remember the fable of the fly , sitting on a cart-wheele , in a dry summers day , and saying , see what a dust i make . for , because he hath discharged himself so unworthily with you , he may be bold to conceit , that if he had to deale with beza , or with any of the contra-remonstrants , or of the synod of dort , he would make it soon appeare , that heresy and untruth condemnes it selfe ( this is the sweet accommodation he makes of that the apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) to wit , by their refusing the touch-stone , and his readinesse backed with all sufficiency to come thereto , whereof he hath given so plentifull demonstration in this he hath written unto you ; as if he had been with some oracle of late , who had not only revealed unto him , some reasonable motives , and wise carriages of the matter , but inspired him also with some martiall spirit , fit for any encounter , despising his adversaries , as empty schollers , and as if their parts were but copper , to his gold . therefore he may take heart to speak boldly , and shew himselfe in the clear day , when such as beza make choyce to walk in mistrs , and dwell in silence . besides his care is very apostolicall for the peace of the church , whereas beza's was not at mompelgard , nor the contra-remonstrants , neither at the hague conference , or at the synod of dort. for none of these belike , have been so forward to shew themselves unto the world , and upon the stage , for the maintenance of their doctrine ( at least in the poynt of reprobation ) no not beza in his lectures upon the ninth to the romans . yet neither this man nor his oracle hath done ought that i know , but in corners . and in corners i find these spirits exceeding busy ; and i have been so happy ( for so i account it , although i confesse my time might be farre more profitably bestowed ) as to meet with some of their mysteries , ere i was aware . and i find their lyons skinnes , doe smell farre more of the fox then of ehe lyon. . the second is this , why should their carriage be any prejudice to others , who are as willing to give an account of their faith in these particulars , as any arminian whatsoever . for my part , i never met with any of them , that i declined , nor i hope never shall . i heartily wish , time might serve me for them all . i have dealt with arminius his examen , his conference with junius , corvinus his answer unto tilenus , i have entred upon vossius his pelagian history . i desire i might have time and opportunity , for their synodalia dordracena , but most of all with the jesuits ; while i deale with them i learne somewhat , but nothing at all while i am occupied with the arminians . . let mee adde one thing more : in the articles of our church , the seaventeenth is concerning predestination and election , not one concerning reprobation . if any of us , should forbeare to meddle with the doctrine of reprobation in dispute , may we not justly plead , a faire conformity to the wisdome of the church whereof we are members ? and by the way to touch one thing , might not this be the reason , why this author utterly pretermits the prosecuting his opinion concerning predestination and election , to wit , least thereby he should fall foule upon the doctrine of our church , so evidently set downe in that article concerning the poynt of predestination ? the church of ireland content themselves , with the very forme of that th article of ours concerning predestination : only they premise two theses ; the one whereof is this , god from all eternity , did by his unchangeable councell ordaine , whatsoever in time should come to passe , yet so , as thereby no violence is offered to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty , nor the contingency of the second cause is taken away , but established rather ; the other this , by the same eternall counsell , god hath predestinated some unto life , and reprobated some unto death , of both which there is a certain number , known only unto god , which neither can be increased nor diminished . discourse . the third motive . the infamy of it . it is an opinion ( as it is maintained by the supralapsarians ) odious to the papists , and opens their foule mouthes against our church and religion , and so abhorred ( maintained either way ) by all rhe lutherans , that for this very tenent , they call us damned calvenists , think us unworthy to be above ground , and in their writings protest ; that they will rather unite themselves to the papists , then to us . sir edwin sands speaks of men , whom he commends for singular learning and piety , ( whose opinion he so sets down , as he declares it to be his own ) that they think it were no blemish for the reformed doctors to revive their doctrine , and to abate the rigour of certain speculative opinions , ( for so he is pleased to call them ) especially touching the eternall decrees of god , wherein some of their chief authors have runne into such an utter opposition to all the romish doctrine , as to have exceedingly scandalized all other churches withall , yea , and many of their own to rest very ill satisfied . at the closing up of the conference at mompelgard , when frederick earle of wortenberg exhorted his divines to acknowledge beza and his company for brethren , and to declare it by giving them their hands , they utterly refused it , saving , that they would pray to god to open their eyes , and would doe them any office of humanity and charity , but they would not give them the right hand of brotherhood , because they were proved to be guilty , errorum teterimorum , of most pestilent errours , of which they reckoned this for one . hemingius left his own side , and joyned with us in the poynt of the sacrament , but would come no neerer to us , but maintained a distance in this . it is a morsell , which the greatest part of the christian churches cannot swallow ; and therefore i think it would not down very easily with us , and without suspicion . twisse consideration . his third topick place , is drawn from the infamy of this doctrine , and that amongst papists and lutherans . and this is a grand motive with him to abhorre it . but i pray consider , was not the doctrine of the gospell infamous at the first , both amongst jewes and gentiles ? what time the jewes were the only people of god , how doth tacitus out of his worldly wisdome brand them ? doth he not call them gentem teterrimam , cenus hominum invisum diis ? and as touching their religious rites , marke what censure he passeth upon them , profana illic omnia , quae apud nos sacra , rursus concessa apud illos , quae apud nos incesta , and comparing them with the rites of bacchus , saith , liber festos , laetosque ritus posuit , judaeorum mos absurdus sordidusque . and speaking of the christians he calls them , genus hominum propter flagitia invisum . this censure he passeth upon them in the daies of holy paul , who forbad them to doe evill that good might come thereof , and commands every soule to be subject to the higher powers , even then , when soules were at the best , and powers at worst . and see i pray what the king of ashurs judgement was , concerning the religion of samaria and jerusalem , in comparison to the religions of their nations , which were heathenish . isa . . . like as mine hand hath found the kingdoms of the idolls , seeing their idolls were above jerusalem , and above samaria . so that of an heathenish religion , he had a better estimation then of the religion of the jewes . now if some rabshakeh amongst them should turne heathen ( for such a tradition , as i remember is received amongst the rabbins , namely , that rabshakeh was a jew , but turned heathen ) and afterwards endeavoured to entice the jewes to doe as he did , and that because of the infamous nature of their religion amongst heathens , how deserved such a one to be entertained by them ? was he not by the law of god to be stoned to death ? in like manner , if in the primitive daies of the church , some christian should turne jew or infidell , and practice to seduce others from the obedience of faith , representing unto them how every where it was contradicted , how christ himselfe was counted a blaspheamer , a sorcerer , how the gospell was a scandall to the jewes , foolishnesse to the gentiles , and that in killing the holy apostles , the world thought they did god very good service . saint paul himselfe professing of himselfe and his fellowes , that they were made as the filth of the world , the offscouring of all things . did this infamy prevaile with paul , or any other holy servant of god , to remit any thing , in the maintenance of his christian faith ? nay , doth he not professe , saying , i passe not for these things , neither is my life deare unto me , so i may fulfill my course with joy , and the ministration that i have received to testify the gospell of the grace of god ? and that in all things , they approve themselves as the ministers of god by honour and dishonour , by good report and evill report , as deceivers and yet true . againe , is it to be expected , that any doctrine should be well spoken of , by such as are opposites and adversaries thereunto ? suppose a rigid lutheran should by gods providence , be taken off from their ubiquitary doctrine ; and in justifying himselfe for the change of his opinion , should represent unto them , the infamous condition of that doctrine , both in the judgement of papists , and in the judgement of calvinists ; i pray consider , how in all likelyhood would this plea be entertained ? could he expect any better recompence hereof , then to be cast out of their synagogues ? suppose a papist should have his eyes opened , and brought to the truth of god in the poynt of justification , and , being demanded the reason of this change of mind in him , should answer , that the infamy of this doctrine , both amongst lutherans and calvinists is so great , and that such a morsell , which neither lutherans nor calvinists can swallow , should therefore ( in his judgement ) not down very easily with papists , and without suspicion . now let any indifferent reader confider , how this plea in all probability would be received amongst papists . yet i mean not to quiet my selfe , or content my reader with this parallell . of that which he here delivers of papists , he gives us no evidence but his bare word in pawne , for the credit of this assertion . neither gives he any testimony of lutherans , their calling us damned calvenists , and though he had , i pray , what were we the farther off from the kingdome of god for that ? and i pray consider , is it not in our power to recompence them , and call them , damned lutherans , if we list to recompence malice with malice , so to serve our own turnes ? and all this is delivered by him without distinction of papists , learned and unlearned , dominicans and jesuits ; in like sort without all distinction of lutherans , whether rigid or moderate . but let us examine his crimination a part . and first , as for papists ; not one is here named , nor any reference made to any of of them . s t pauls prayer was , that they might be delivered from unreasonable men . i think never sect rose upmore unreasonable then this sect of arminians . this writing came unto my hands , before i had dispatched a large discourse sent unto me from one of same sect , and therein i have met with pregnant evidences , that more heads then one , were employed thereabouts . and there i am told to my face , that our doctrine of absolute reprobation , we have learned from the papists . another with whom i had to doe not long before , professeth in plain manner thus ; the jesuits ten of them for one , favour the absolute irrespective decree , following herein as they think s t austin , but especially their s t thomas , and scotus , with all the rabble of rotten schoolmen , and the whole tribe at this day of the dominicans , who are buzy zelots for the cause ; of whose consent some amongst us are not ashamed to bragge . if our irrespective decree , be so joyntly maintained by both jesuits , and dominicans , and that as they think according to austin , how is it possible our doctrine herein , can be so odious to the papists ? or what papists doth he mean , if neither jesuits nor dominicans , nor any such as concurre with either of them ? or if it be so odious unto them , as one arminian proselite professeth , how can it be so concordantly maintained by them , as another arminian proselite avoucheth ? and if we have learned it at the hands of papists , what will these lutherans gaine , by uniting with papists rather then with us , that is , with the masters rather then with the schollars . and if a lutheran should be converted to the embracing of our tenent herein , and to justify himselfe should plead ; that we calvinists are ready to protest , that in the doctrine of reprobation and predestination , we had rather unite our selves with papists then with them , of what moment think you , would this motive be with them , which this author most inconsiderately proposeth , as a poynt of very ponderous consideration ? but as touching papists , their dislike of us , he confines it only to the supralapsarian-way . and indeed that distinction of the supralapsarian and sublapsarian-way . was brought in meerely to get thereby some more elbow roome . for if they agree with us in the poynt of gods absolute and irrespective decrees , how improbable is it , that the doctrine of any of our divines , in stating the object of predestination to be humanum genus nondum conditum , will prove odious unto them ; considering this is a meer logicall difference , as i have shewed in my vindic. grat. dei cap. . pag. . de predestinatione digress . . yet as touching the supralapsarian-way , that opinion is imputed unto junius by arminius , as also to thomas and his followers . collat. armin. cum juni . pag. . and if so , how improbable is it , that such an opinion should be so odious to the papists , as this author upon his bare word avoucheth . and alphonsus mendoza spares not to professe , that supernaturalls were intended by god before naturalls ; and his discourse hereupon , was taken with admiration by his auditors in spaine , and he was urged as himselfe professeth , to set it forth in print . and the quatuor signa francisci mayronis ( mentioned by m r perkins de praedest . modo & ordine ) doe manifest that he took the same way ; and these quatuor signa , franciscus mayro received from the doctrine of scotus . it is well known that in the synod of dort , there met divines different in this poynt , who yet neither hated one anothers doctrine nor persons for this difference ; like as so it is amongst us , as in the place above mentioned i have shewed . nay it is apparent , that junius took upon him to reconcile all three opinions there abouts , and piscator after him , who also hath discharged his part herein , farre more clearely then iunius . and no marvail , iunius having first broken the ice . but that the truth may not be carried in the clouds of ambiguities , as they desire , who are in love with errour : all the question between these our divines consists in this , whether it were the will of god that adam should fall by his permission , so to make way for gods glorious ends , to wit , the manifestation of his glory , in the incarnation of the sonne of god , as also in the way of mercy , in the salvation of some ; and in the way of justice , in the condemnation of others . the supralapsarians maintaine , that such was the will of god , least otherwise way should be made for the manifestation of gods glorious works by accident , rather then by gods providence . other divines that take the sublapsarian way , had rather decline this nice poynt as difficult , then oppose it as odious . but say i , the doctrine wherein both jesuits and arminians doe agree , will abundantly serve us to justify us , in the positive and affirmative part of so nice a poynt as this . for by their doctrine of scientia media , god did foresee , that upon such an administration of his providence about adam as was used , adam would fall ; and more then this , that god could have brought forth other administrations of his providence in very great variety , some whereof were such , that if god had used , adam would not have fallen . now being pleased to make use of such an administration of providence divine , upon the purpose whereof , he foresaw adam would fall ; and not being pleased to use such a providence , upon the purpose whereof , he had foreseen adam would not have fallen ; i call here all the indifferent of the world to judge , whether it doth not manifestly follow herehence , that it was the will of god , adam should fall by his permission . again , throughout our doctrine , nothing is more harsh then that of gods determining the will of the creature , to every act of his , as touching the substance thereof . dares this author betray such ignorance , as hand over head to professe , that this doctrine is odious unto papists ? whereas the most learned in the church of rome , are well known to maintain it in expresse termes , whereas our divines course is , to keep themselves to the phrase of scriptures . and as for the jesuits who oppose it , and in the place thereof bring in scientia media , and gratia congrua , shaped after the genius of scientia media . i can shew an expresse acknowledgement under the hand of a zealot for the arminian cause , that between the gratia praedeterminans of the dominicans , and gratia congrua of the jesuits , there is no such materiall difference at all , but that the absolutenesse of predestination and reprobation doth follow , as well upon the one , as upon the other . to conclude , i would this author would be so wise , as once more to consult with his oracle , and enquire , whether papists are more ready to joyne with lutherans , in their doctrine of christs ubiquity , as touching his manhood , then with us in the poynt of reprobation , or of gods concourse . for suppose we held as suarez is pleased to state our tenent , namely , quod deus omnipotenti voluntate nobis necessitatem imponat ; yet the same suarez saith , that in this very poynt , we are not reprehended of them , as if we affirmed ought , quod vel in re ipsâ contradictionem involvat , aut dei omnipotentiam superet . i presume no papist is so well conceited in the lutherans doctrine in the poynt of ubiquity . from that which he affirmes of papists , i come to that which he affirmes of lutherans . and what one instance hath he given of any lutheran , speaking against our making the corrupt masse the object of predestination or reprobation ? surely not one , either out of sir edwin sands , nor out of osiander ; nay what cause is there , why either papist or lutheran should , in case the object thus stated ( or in a more rigid forme of the masse uncorrupt ) doth no way constraine us to maintaine , that god doth intend the damnation of any man , in any moment of nature , before the consideration of him , as departing out of this world , under the power of sinne ; no nor to maintain , that god doth intend the salvation of any man , in any moment of nature , before the consideration of him , in finall perseverance in faith and repentance , provided god suffer him , to live untill the use of reason , as i have shewed , and endeavoured to justify , and make appeare , in my vindic. grat. dei , in the digressions concerning predestination . for indeed not any of our divines was , i think , ever known to maintain , that god did intend to damne any man but for sinne ; neither doe i maintaine , that god intended to bestow salvation on any man of ripe years , but by way of reward of his faith and repentance . the true and principall , reall ( not verball only ) difference between us , and the arminians , is about gods bestowing of faith and repentance , and his purpose thereof . now let any learned lutheran deliver his mind on this , namely , upon the foresight where of it is , that god gives faith and repentance unto some , and denyes it unto others . when tossanus makes relation of hunnius his exposition of that place acts . . et crediderunt quotquot ordinati erant ad vitam , thus , id est , qui sese ordinarant & disposuerant ad audiendum dei verbum ; * hunnius in his refutation of tossanus his theses , cites tossanus to appear before the tribunall seat of the judge both of quick and dead , and to shew in what place of his writings , this is to be found , professing that such doctrine is the very pelagian heresy , and that himselfe never approved it , but disproved it rather , and most constantly impugned it . what lutheran was ever known so absurd , as to say , that god worketh in us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle credere , modò velimus ? yet this doctrine i can shew in expresse termes delivered by an arminian . but come to the consideration of the instances proposed by him . the first is the relation of sir edwin sands . and i remember well to have read in him somewhat concerning the predestinary pestilence , so called by some . and i might wonder at this authors wisdome , in pretermitting that passage ; but upon search finding it about fol. . though my book hath no quotation at all of pages , i ceased to wonder at his concealing of it . i have rather cause to commend his wisdome therein , although it expresseth that whereupon this author formerly touched , as concerning the lutherans readinesse to returne to the papacy rather then to admit that predestinary pestilence . for predestinary pestilence goeth not here alone , but is joyned with the sacramentary pestilence , for these two poynts , saith he , are the ground of the quarrell ; but he addes i confesse , that the predestinary pestilence was more scandalous at that day then the former . yet the same author professeth fol. . of the lutherans , that if he fetch an elle forwards one way , for an elle he looseth another way , it is only by a kind of boysterous force and violence against the calvinists , as in strasborough of late . and the reason hereof he takes to be in part the absurdities of the ubiquitary chimaera . and as for the passage here alleaged , i find it about fol. . wherein i consider , first that the speculative opinions he speaks of are not about the eternall decrees of god only , or especially above all others , as here by cunning carriage it is pretended . for the words runne thus ; it can be no blemish to them to revise their doctrine , and to abate the rigour of certain speculative opinions , especially touching the eternall decrees of god , the quality of mans nature , the use of works , wherein some of their chiefe authors have come to such an utter opposition , &c so that the poynts of rigorous doctrine , which were to be qualified in this gentlemans judgement , are many , but especially three ; the first whereof is touching the eternall decrees of god , the second concerning the quality of mans nature , the third concerning the use of works : so that the doctrine of gods eternall decrees is not the poynt alone , the rigour whereof especially is to be qualified in this authors judgement , but this especiall care of qualification , is by him referred to the three poynts formerly mentioned , and that indifferently . secondly , whereas this author relates , that this is delivered , not as out of the relators judgement only , but as out of the judgement of men whom he commends for singular learning and piety . i find no such matter in the relation that i have , though i have searched after it , both by considering what went before , and what comes after , as farre as he treats of the same matter . whether this comes in a second edition i know not : in mine i find no such thing . so that the weight of this motive hitherto , lies wholly upon the authority of this gentleman . and surely i should think it were nothing hard to counterballance this authority to the full . and it may be he speaks herein no other thing then wherein he was endoctrinated by his tutor , as lately an ingenious and grave divine , differing from us in the poynt of reprobation , most ingeniously acknowledged , that he was brought into that opinion of his by his tutor , who was a lutheran : and i doubt we have too many such amongst us . of late i have heard , that one of good place spared not openly to professe , saying , call us as we ought to be called , for we are lutherans : i would wee had not too many popish-hearted amongst us . thirdly , whereas this gentleman adviseth us to revise the doctrines , and this author accommodates it only to gods eternall decrees ; i have already performed this , and qualified the rigour of some mens opinions thereabouts . for whereas some have subordinated gods decree of permitting sinne , to the decree of damnation , i have taken another course , and doe maintain , that in no moment of nature is the decree of damnation , before the decree of permitting finall perseverance in sinne . again , i presume this gentlemans meaning is not , that the doctrine of the church of england is rigorous , as touching gods eternall decrees . i willingly professe , i desire no better triall of the truth of the doctrine i maintain hereabouts , next unto the word of god , then to be tried by the th article of the church of england , and by the articles of the church of ireland , set forth in the daies of king james thirdly , i would it were put unto this gentleman , if he be living , whether in his opinion , god of his free grace doth bestow faith and repentance on some , thereby to cure that naturall infidelity and hardnesse of heart , which is originally found in all , and of his meer pleasure , he denies it unto other : or whether finding some morall difference or preparation in one more then in another , is hereupon moved to give faith and repentance unto them , and deny it unto others . if he shall acknowledge , that god doth shew his mercy to whom he will , that is , of his meer pleasure , and denies it to whom he will , i am ready to professe , that let him state gods eternall decrees after what manner he will , i shall willingly subscribe thereunto ; provided it be suitable unto the former ground : and as for the unsuitable nature thereof , if in case it so fall out , let the proofe and evident demonstration thereof , lye on mee . but if his opinion be , that god bestowes faith and repentance on man , moved thereunto by some morall preparation , which he finds in one , rather then in another , i appeale to the lutherans themselves , whether this be not in plain termes no better then pelagianisme . as for his calling their opinions in this poynt , speculative opinions ( as this author would have us observe ) i am willing to observe it : and withall i think , he doth it with better judgement , then this author doth in calling them practicall . and whereas it is pretended , that our divines have been carried into these opinions of theirs , in opposition to popish doctrine , this is so out of season in these daies ( notwithstanding the raw judgement of this author ) that our arminians spare not to professe ( as formerly mentioned ) and charge us to our face , that we have learned this doctrine of ours , out of the writings of papists . and grevincovius , against amesius , spares not to pronounce , that they may with better credit follow the jesuits , then wee the dominicans , considering that the dominicans are the great administrators of the inquisition in spaine . this is delivered as touching the poynt of grace and free-will : but as touching the poynt of election and reprobation absolute , i can shew under the hand of an arminian , that herein there is no materiall difference between the dominicans , and most part of the jesuits ; so little difference there is between the gratia praedeterminans of the one , and the gratia congrua of the other . so that if this be true , it is not probable , that hereby we scandalize the judicious and learned papists ; and what those other churches are which we scandalize , excepting churches lutheran , either this author knows not , or is well content to dissemble it , to wit , the churches of socinians and anabaptists . and how doe we more scandalize the churches lutheran herein , then they scandalize us ? was it ever known , that by meer differing in opinion from other churches , christian men were said to scandalize them ? or if it were so , must not the scandall in this case , be equall on both sides ? as for the leaving many of our own very ill satisfied , why should that seem strange ? what doth carryer write of many well known to him in this our church of england , of the same mind with himselfe , some papists , some lutherans ? and may there not be as many amongst the lutherans , as ill satisfied with the doctrine commonly received amongst them , save that they are farre more forward , to excommunicate all such , as soon as they appeare , then wee ? besides all this , the poynt of scandall is brought in very unseasonably ; for if it be a truth that we maintain and professe , if any are scandalized by it , it is a scandall taken , not given : god forbid we should grow so profane , as to account it a scandalous thing to make profession of gods truth ; especially this truth we maintain being so neere to a cleare opposition to pelagianisme , a heresy condemned by the church above years agoe . when frederick duke of woortenberg exhorted his divines to acknowledge beza , and his company for brethren , and to declare it by giving them their hands ; the answer of refusall was made by jacobus andreas a most bitter enimy , and one whom beza describes , tanquam virum sanguinarium , and his carriage throughout was most imperious . and it becomes an arminian spirit well , to make the rancour of his malicious heart , a rule wherebyto cry down the doctrine which he abhorred . with a farre better grace might a papist cry down our faith , opposite to the doctrine of the church of rome , by the popes abhorring it , and damning of it to the pit of hell . for surely it is fit he should be of farre more authority then jacobus andreas ; not to speak of the anathematization of it in the councell of trent , nor of the common argument of papists , in that they deny that we can be saved , many amongst us are of opinion , that a papist can be saved , therefore better to be a papist then a protestant ; yet surely it is in the power of our corruption to requite malice with malice , and as much to scorne with our heeles their brotherhood , as they ours . but if through the grace of god , we doe not give our selves leave to requite their malice , if that be no scandall to themselves , there is no cause why it should be any scandall unto us . in sir edwin sands about fol. . there is such a relation as this , though the princes and heads of the weaker sides in those parts both of palsgrave and landsgrave , have with great wisdome and judgement ( to aslack those flames ) imposed silence on that poynt , to the ministers of the one party , hoping that the charity and discretion of the other sort , would have done the like : yet it falleth out otherwise , that lutheran preachers rage hitherto in their pulpits . now let arminians if they think good , conclude herehence , that seeing there was so little charity and discretion , in the lutheran preachers , it becomes them in their writings and conclusions , to shew as little charity and discretion as they for their hearts ; and that grace of god which they fashion to themselves , will bear them out in this , it beeing meerely the power of their own free-wills . but this is not all i have to say in answer hereunto . the phrase in osiander is not , errorum teterrimorum , but haerescωn teterrimarum , of which this author saith , they reckoned this for one . and let him speak out and tell us , what were the others . was not the denyall of consubstantiation another ? as also the denyall of the lawfulnesse of that baptisme , which was administred by woemen ; ( the practice whereof king james reformed in our book of common-prayer : ) as also their not concurrence with them in opinion about the person of christ , which by their ubiquitary chimaera ( as sir edwin sands call it ) they doe miserably deforme . these and other such like were the errours , whereof this author saith , beza and his fellowes were proved to be guilty of in this conference , for so i take his meaning , pronouncing thereby sentence tanquam ex cathedra judicis ; or the lutheran party throughout in that conference : which conference was not of predestination alone , but de caenâ domini , de personâ christi , de imaginibus , de baptismo , and last of all de praedestinatione . yet i have not done with this . for i beseech you consider , whether this author , or his oracle , be not miserably deceived in all this , and that these teterrimae haereses are not such as iacobus andreas with his lutheran party , laid to the charge of beza and his brethren , but rather such as beza and his brethren , laid to the charge of the lutherans ; and that not in this conference , but in their writings , in scriptis , so goeth the relation . whereas this conference was not by writing , but only by word of mouth ; iacobus andreas not enduring to give way to beza's motion as touching the consigning of that which they delivered in writing under their hands . for the relation in osiander runs thus ; ad haec d. iacobus respondit , woortenbergicos theologos deum oraturos , ut bezae & ipsius collegis oculos mentis aperiat . ut autem illis dextram fraternitatis praebeant non ignor are illos quàm horribilium errorum & teterrimarum haereseω● in suis scriptis coram fcclesiâ ipsos reos egerint ; ideoque se mirari quomodo eos pro fratribus agnoscere possint aut velint , aut corum fraternitatem expetant , si pro talibus agnoscant , qui damnatas haereses ab orco revocent ut ecclesiae dei obtendant . now these words though at first sight they may seem to be referred , either to the woortenbergers as accusing beza and his brethren , of such errours and heresies ; yet the words following , ideoque se mirari quamodo eos pro fratribus agnoscere possint aut velint , aut eorum fraternitatem expetant , si pro talibus agnoscant , qui damnatas haereses ex orco revocent : these words i say doe farre more incline to signify , that beza and his brethren , laid these horrible errours and heresies to the charge of the lutherans ; and therefore the lutherans wondred , how they could desire their brotherhood , whom they accounted such horrible heretiques ; rather then the lutheran party , should wonder how they should affect brotherhood with beza , seeing they neither did affect any such , and if they had it was not fit they should wonder at their own actions . but that which followes puts it out of all question ; where comes in manifestly , what the lutheran party conceived of the doctrine of beza implying thereby , what beza and his fellows conceived of the lutherans doctrine , was formerly expressed ; the words following are these , contrà verò in quibus & quàm tetris erroribus ipsi versentur ( that is beza and his company ) hac collatione iis demonstratum esse : in quibus cum adhuc perseverent ipsos intelligere quòd eos pro fratribus agnoscere non possint . in which words andreas gives the reason why he and his fellowes cannot acknowledge beza and his fellowes for brethren , because they maintained , tetros errores ( as he calls them ; ) for proofe whereof he appeales to the present conference . and this being delivered on the contrary part to that which is delivered before , as appears by the very first word , contra verò , it followeth , that in the former part was set down , the reason why beza and his fellowes , should not desire the fraternity of the lutheran party , to wit , because they laid to the lutherans charge , that they maintained horrible errours and most pestilent heresies , for proof whereof , he appeals not to this present conference , which was carried wholly by word of mouth , but to their writings . this being clearely the meaning of andreas , it is apparent , that the charge laid by beza and his fellowes , upon the lutherans , was of fouler crimes , by andreas his relation , then was the charge laid by andreas upon beza and his brethren . for andreas charged beza only with , errores tetros ; but beza and his are said to have charged the lutherans with horribiles errores , & haereses teterrimas . so that this author doth miserably mistake his own evidences , and shamefully abuseth himselfe first , and others after him , if they will be abused by him . and whether he hath not taken it from some achates of his upon trust i know not ; and if it be so that some achates hath helped him hereunto , certainly he hath not proved fidus achates in this . in the close , it will not be amisse to shew , how m r mason of s t andrews vndershaft in london , alleageth this carriage of jacobus andreas , as a testimony of the lutheran uncharitablenesse , in comparison with the charitable condition of their opposites , in a small treatise of contentment in gods gifts . pag. . and shall their uncharitablenesse plead for the truth of their way , or be any just argument , of the untruth of our way , in any sober and wise mans judgement . of hemingius his leaving his own side , i never heard or read before , unlesse that of a papist he became a protestant . but the difference is well known between the rigid and moderate lutherans , and these are called by the other semi-calviniani . and what i pray hath hemingius deserved , that his authority should be greater then the authority of zuinglius , calvin , junius ; zanchius , piscator . the lutherans themselves ( i suppose ) will hardly think him worthy to be remembred the same day with martin luther . and as for martin luthers doctrine herein , to my judgement , he is farre more expresse and resolute then calvin , and i find that beza in his conference of mompelgard , doth sometimes twit his opposites with luthers doctrine , whereunto throughout that conference , i doe not find they answer any thing at all . when he saith , it is a morsell , which the greatest part of the christian churches cannot swallow ; what a wild course doth he take in these his motives . must we for every doctrine of ours , examine whether the most part of christian churches doe embrace it yea or no ? why should wee not then runne out in this our search , and enquire , what is the moscoviticall and grecian faith , what the aethiopian , and abyssine , and so proceed in our contemplative perambulations , all the world over , and what we have found preacht unto our people also , to their more profound , and substantiall edification , if they list to believe us upon our word . but i suppose he looked no farther then to this westerne world , secluding the new discoveries within the last hundred years or somewhat more . and very confidently he must exclude all popish churches , or presume they are for him in this . yet as i said , the very last arminian , i have had to deale with , hath told me to my face , that my doctrine of absolute reprobation , i have learned it of the papists ; and another to this purpose , there is no materiall difference between the gratia congrua of the jesuits , and cratia praedeterminans of the dominicans . and secluding popish churches , i know not who they are , whom he calls the greatest part of the christian churches . be it , that the lutheran churches are a greater party , then the churches of the calvinists ( which is more then i find in sir edwin sands his relation . ) now suppose the number of the calvinists and their power were greater then that of the lutherans ; ask i pray any lutheran in the world whether that were any reasonable motive unto him to change his religion and turne calvinist ? if it be of no weight to perswade them , why should it be of any moment to prevaile with us ? i come now to the fourth and last of these motives . discourse . the fourth motive . it s affinity with the old exploded and condemned errours of the stoicks and manichees . the opinion of the stoicks was , that all actions and events were inevitable , and determined , either by the revolutions of the heavens , and the qualities of the starres , which raigne at mens births , or by the concatenation of naturall things , and the disposition of the first matters of all things , being so put together from eternity , that one thing must needs follow another as it doth , and the materia prima being so disposed , that all things cannot successively come to passe otherwise then they doe , but must of necessity be as they are , even invito deo , though god would have some things to be otherwise then they be . the manichees held , that all mens actions , good or evill , were determined too : good actions by a good god , who was the author of all good things created , and of all good actions that fell out in the world : evill actions by an evill god , who was the primum principium malt , the first and principall author of all evill things that were extant in the world . the maintainers of the absolute decree , doe say one of these two things ; either that all actions naturall and morall , good and evill , and all events likewise are absolutely necessary , or that all mens ends ( at least ) are unalterable and undeterminable by the power of their wills , which is upon the matter all one . for in vain is our freedome in the actions , if the end which they drive at be pitched and determined , sith , omnis actio est propter finem , all actions are done for the ends sake , that it might be obtained by them , which without them could not . now in these three opinions , we may note two things . . the substance and formality of them , which is an unavoidablenesse of mens actions and ends whatsoever they be ; in this all of them agree and holding that in all things , undeclinable fates , and insuperable necessity doe domineere . and therefore melancthon doth not slack in many of his common places , to call this absolute decree , fatum stoicum , tabulas parcarum , and to charge the church of geneva ( the great defender of it ) with a labour to bring in the stoicks errours , as we may see in a certain epistle of melancthons to peucer , where he speaks thus , scribit ad me laetius de stoico fato usque adeo litem genevae moveri , ut quidam in carcerem conjectus sit propterea quod à zenone differret . o misera tempora ! doctrina salutis peregrinis quibusdam dubitationibus obscuratur . and beza too speaking of melancthon saies , philippus de his rebus itascribere caeperat , ut genevenses quasi stoicorum fatum invehentes notare quibusdam videatur . . the circumstances or the grounds of their opinions . the stoicks derive this necessity from the starres or first matter , the manichees from duo prima principia aeterna & coeterna , and these last from the peremptory decree of almighty god , so that in this they differ , but in this difference , the stoicks and the manichees in some respects have the better . for it is better to derive the necessity of evill actions , or unhappy events from an evill god , or from the course of nature , then from the decree of that god who is infinitely good . the substance of their opinions is all one , the ground wherein they differ is but accidentall to their errour . if it be so , for this very reason alone may this doctrine of absolute reprobation be suspected , because these dreams of the stoicks were exploded by the best philosophers of all sorts : and this of the manichees was generally cryed down by the fathers , not only as foolish , but as impious and unworthy of entertainment in a christian heart , or christian commonwealth , not so much for any thing circumstantiall in it , but because it made all things and events necessary , and so plucked up the roots of virtue , planted vice , and left no place for just rewards or punishments . these are my reasons of the first sort . twisse consideration . our doctrine i see is cryed downe , not only as infamous , but also as stoicall , and manichaicall . now i had thought the infamy of it had consisted only in the stoicality of it , and it is no way fit to coordinate the genus with the species , in multiplying criminations . but i remember what the poet observes to fall out sometimes , namely , that , accedit fervor capiti numerusque lucernis . it calls to my remembrance a story that mr bastard sometimes told my good friend d. hoskins , it was of a neighbour that came to him complaining of a friend of his , that had lost all his five senses ; as for example , his sight and his seeing , and so proceeded in his amplification : with whom mr bastard as it were , condoling , answered , though he had lost his fight , yet if he had retained his seeing , there had been some comfort . true sir quoth the plain fellow . in like sort , i might say , that though our doctrine in this poynt be stoicall , yet if it were not infamous there were some comfort in it , but the heavy crimination laid to our charge is , that it is not only stoicall , but infamous also . but let this be our comfort , that nothing herein is laid to our charg , which was not laid to the charg of austin , many hundred years agoe . this prosper testifies after austins death , to have been the practice of the pelagians . prout sibi obnoxias aliquorum aures opportunasque repererint , scripta ejus quibus error pelagianorum impugnatur , infamant , dicentes , eum liberum arbitrium peni●ùs submovere & sub gratiae nomine necessitatem praedicare fatalem . neither was he free from this reproach while he lived , as appears by divers passages ; as contr. duas epistol . pelagiani . lib. . cap. . sub nomine , inquiunt , gra●●ae ita fatum astruunt , ut dicant , quia nisi deus invito & reluctanti homini in●piraverit boni & ipsius imperfecti cupiditatem , nec à malo declinare , nec bonum posset arripere . this is the objection ; his answer followeth in these words . nec sub nomine gratiae fatum asserimus , quia nullis hominum meritis dicimus dei gratiam antecedi . si autem quibusdam omnipotentis dei voluntatem placet fati nomine nurcupari , profanas quidem verborum novitates evitamus , sed de verbis contendere non amamus . and cap. . fatum qui affirmant de syderum positione ad tempus quo concipitur quisque vel nascitur , quas constellationes vocant , non solùm actus & eventa , veram etiam ipsas nostras voluntates pendere contendunt . dei verò gratia non solùm omnia sydera & omnes caelos , utrum etiam omnes angelos supergreditur . deinde fati assertores & bona & mala hominum fato tribuunt . deus autem in malis hominum meritis eorum debita retributione prosequitur ; bona verò per indebitam gratiam misericordi voluntate largitur : utrumque faciens non per stellarum temporale consortium , sed per suae severitatis & bonitatis aeternum altumque consilium . neutrum ergò pertinere videmus ad fatum . and cap. . iam de gratia & fato quàm inani alloquuntur ostendimus . nunc illud est quod debemus advertere , utrum invito & reluctanti homini deus inspiret boni cupiditatem , ut jam non sit reluctans , non sit invitus , sed consentiens bono , & volens bonum . in like sort , the pelagians charged austin with manicheisme , de nupt. & concupisc . lib. . cap. . to whom he answereth thus , quid obtendis ad fallendum communis dogmatis tegmen , ut operias proprium crimen , unde vobis inditum est nomen , atque ut nefario vocabulo terras imperites , dicis , ne igitur vocentur haeretici , fiant manichaei . and more at large , contr. duas epist . pelag . ad bonifacium , cap. . manichaei dicunt deum bonum non omnium natuarrum esse creatorem : pelagiani dicunt , deum non esse omnium aetatum in hominibus mundatorem , salvatorem , liberatorem . catholica utrosque redarguit , & contra manichaeos defendens dei creaturam ne ab illo instituta negetur ulla creatura ; & contrà pelagianos ut in omnibus aetatibus perdita requiratur humana natura . . manichaei carnis concupiscentiam non tanquam accidens vitium , sed tanquam naturam ab aeternitate malam vituperant : pelagiani eam tanquam nullum vitium sed naturale sit , bonum insuper laudant . catholica utrosque redarguit , manichaeis dicens non natura , sed vitium est ; pelagianis dicens , non à patre , sed ex mundo est , ut eam velut malam valetudinem sanari utr●que permittant , desinendo illi tanquam insanabilem credere , isti tanquam laudabilem praedicare . . manichaei negant , homini bono ex libro arbitrio fuisse initium mali ; pelagiani dicunt etiam hominem malum sufficienter habere liberum arbitrium ad faciendum praeceptum bonum . catholica utrosque redarguit , & illis dicens , fecit deus hominem rectum ; & istis dicens , si vos filius liberaverit , verè liberi eritis . . manichaei dicunt , animam particulam dei , naturae malae commixtione habere peccatum ; pelagiani dicunt , animam justam non quidem particulam , sed creaturam dei , etiam in istâ corruptibili vitâ non habere peccatum . catholica utrosque redarguit , manichaeis dicens , aut facile arborem bonam , & fructum ejus bonum , aut facile arborem malam & fructum ejus malum ; pelagianis dicens , si dixerimus quia non habemus peccatum , nosmetipsos seducimus . his morbis inter se contrariis manichaei pelagianique confligunt dissimili voluntate , simili vanitate , seperati opinione diversâ , sed propinqui mente perversâ . iam verò gratiam christi simul oppugnant , baptismum ejus simul evacuant , carnem ejus simul inhonorant , sed etiam hoc modis causisque diversis . nam manichaei meritis naturae bonae , pelagiani autem meritis voluntatis bonae perhibent divinitus subveniri . illi dicunt , debet hoc deus laboribus membrorum suorum : isti dicunt , debet hoc virtutibus suorum . utrisque ergò merces non imputatur secundum gratiam , sed secundum debitum . but come we to the consideration of the particulars delivered by this author . . as touching the opinion of the stoicks and manichees . . as touching the parallell he makes , between their opinion and ours , in the poynt of predestination . . the chaldeans and astrologers , did altogether place fate , in the influencies of the starres , and because those glorious bodies , did infatuate the world with a shew of divinity ( which the lord laboured to prevent in the jewes . deutr. . ) no marvail if the vulgar sort did acknowledge no other fate , but that . as austin saith , de civit. dei lib. . cap. . id ( fatum ) homines quando audiunt usitatâ loquendi confuetudine non intelligunt , nisi vim positionis syderum , qualis est quando quis nascitur sive concipitur . but i doe not find that the stoicks did thus distinguish , but by their series causarum , they comprehended all causes caelestiall or sublunary . ramus indeed conceived such a difference between possidonius and chrysippus both stoicks , but turnebus makes bold to tell him , that herein he erred . quod autem possidonium dicis studio astrologiae oblectatum , fatum syderibus attribuisse in eo peccas , quod aliam ejus quam chrysippi sententiam putas , nec eam totam complecteris . nam si in simul aegrotantibus fratribus causam esse dicebat in syderum & caeli constitutione & affectione , non tamen idcircò in aliis rebus fatum non esse judicabat . nay he professeth that according to all the stoicks , fatum was god himselfe and nature ; and that by fatum they understood , omnem naturae contagionem , which was cicero's phrase . as indeed the whole frame of nature is knit together per contactum , which cicero called naturae contagionem . and he proves as much of possidonius out of cicero de divinatione . for quintus therein professing according to the opinion of possidonius , that all force and course of divination , was derived from god , from destiny , and from nature , he concludes therehence , that all kind of artificiall and naturall divination , were in his opinion comprehended under the notion of fate . and out of cicero's second book of divination shewes , that whereas possidonius his opinion was , vim quandam sentientem & divinam quae tota confusa sit mundo , ad hostiam deligendam ducere . he concludes thus ; satis ut opinor , significat possidonium non in syderibus tantum fatum posuisse , sed per omnem mundi continuationem & naturae conjunctionem , ordinem seriemque causarum permanare credidisse . idem possidonius ( saith he ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scripserat , quod non fecisset , si in syderibus tantum fatum esse sensisset . and like as possidonius did not insist only in the starres , for the confirmation of fate , so neither did chrysippus in inferior causes . necessitatem nature acutus interpres ( he taxeth ramus ) ad chrysippum pertinere astrorum ad possidonium credidisti ; errorem errore cumulasti . nam nec possidonius in solis astris fatum ponebat sed in totâ naturae contagione , ut suprà docui : & chrysippus in eâdem naturae contagione , quâ etiam astra continentur , quod non intellexisti . and that he proves out of cicero answering chrysippus in this manner . ut igitur ad quasdam res natura loci pertinet , ad quasdam autem nihil : sie affectio astrorum valeat , sivis ad quasdam res ; ad omnes certè non valebit . chrysippum enim alloquitur ( saith turnebus ) ut vel puero notum est , ut me tui pudeat & pigeat , qui possidonium intelligis . thus he disciplines ramus , and proceed farther , saying , chrysippum autem in astrorum constitutione , & affectione fatum posuisse , audi ex cicerone ; si quis , verbi causâ oriente caniculâ natus est , is in mari non morietur . vigila chrysippe &c. nihil istud argumentum ( thus turnebus concludes herehence ) nisi etiam in astris fatum poneret . so that the foure opinions concerning fate , related by ludovicus vives in . lib. august . de civit. dei cap. . and that out of picus mirandula , lib. . contra astrologos ; the first whereof is said to be nature ; the second , a series of causes necessary knit together , the third the starres , the fourth the execution of divine decree . i say all these make but one fatum with the stoicks , yea with all the stoicks in the judgement of turnebus . and austin de civit. dei lib. . cap. . expresly includes the will of god within that series of causes , which was accounted fatum in the opinion of the stoicks , and upon that ground approves of it . as for necessitation by reason of disposition of the matter prime , whereby things were brought to passe in despite of god ; i find no such thing , neither in austin , nor in those that comment upon him , ludovicus vives and coqueus , nor in ramus or turnebus ; but rather to the contrary in ludovicus vives , who distinguisheth out of the opinion of plato , as touching one god whom he made principem parentemque caeterorum ; the caeteri belike were such spirits as wee call angells . and that maximi dei leges were inevitabiles , and this was called necessity , and such a necessity , cui ne deos quidem ( that is inferior spirits ) resistere posse . quae verò ab astris geruntur , talia interdum esse ut evitari sapientiâ , industriâ , labore queant , in quo sua est fortuna . quae verò certis causis progrederentur ac permanerent fixa , id dici fatum quod tamen necessitatem non afferat electioni . that the manichees maintained two supreme and coëternall causes of all things , we read ; the one the cause of good , the other of evill : and that every creature was a substantiall part of one or both ; and that man in his nature was compounded of both , and that his corruption was essentiall from the supream author of evill , and not such as acrewed to him of disobedience , we read . but of their opinion that all things were determined by them , both good , and evill , i no where read , but in this authors legend . danaeus hath commented upon austin de haeresibus , and to every head of heresy draws what he hath read thereof in other authors . but i find no mention at all of this article amongst shamefull errours of theirs which he reckons up . the th is this , voluntatem malè agendi , quod vocant liberum arbitrium , nob is à naturâ ipsâ insitam , non rebellione nostrâ accersitam , vel ex inobedientiâ natam ; quanquam homines propriâ voluntate peccant . and where austin answereth the criminations against the catholiques made by the pelagians , i find no mention at all of this . he should have shewed from whom he takes this , that understanding their opinion aright , we might the better judge of the reproachfull comparison which he makes . to the consideration of which comparison of his , i now addresse my selfe . he proposeth two things , one whereof he saith , must needs be maintained . the first whereof is this ; that all actions naturall and morall , good and evill , and all events likewise , are absolutely necessary . concerning which , i say first ; i have cause to doubt that this author understands not aright , the very notions of absolute necessity , and necessity not absolute . there is no greater necessity , then necessity of nature . and this necessity is twofold ; either in essendo , in being , or in operando , in working . god alone is necessary in being , and his being is absolutely necessary ; it being impossible he should not be , as not only we believe , but schoole divines demonstrate , and that with great variety , of evident , and curious conclusions . as for the other necessity , which is in respect of operation : first , this is no way incident unto god , speaking of operation ad extrà , and secluding the mysterious emanations within the divine nature ; such as are the generation of the sonne by the father , and the wonderfull procession of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne . but ad extra this necessity of operation is only found in the creature , and that only in such creatures , as by necessity of nature are determined one way : as fire to burne ; heavy things to move downwards , and light things upwards ; the sunne , moone , and starres to give light ; and the heavens to turne round ; all naturall agents in a word distinct from rationall are thus determined , to wit , to work that , whereunto they are inclined by necessity of nature ; but yet so that being finite , they are subject to superiour powers , and thereby obnoxious to impediment most of them , even to powers create ; all of them to power increate . whence it comes passe that no work of theirs is absolutely necessary , especially in respect of god , who can either set an end to all when he will , or restraine their operations at his pleasure . we know the three noble children , when they came forth of the fiery oven , had not so much as any smell of the fire upon them . and therefore durand professeth that these things which are commonly accounted to come to passe most necessarily , doe indeed come to passe meerely contingently , in respect of the will of god. neverthelesse we willingly professe , that upon supposition of the will of god , that this or that shall come to passe , it followeth necessarily that such a thing shall come to passe ; like as upon supposition , that god knowes such a thing shall come to passe , it followeth necessarily , that such a thing shall come to passe ; but how ? not necessarily : but either necessarily according as some things are brought to passe by naturall agents , working necessarily after the manner aforesaid ; or contingently and freely according as some things are brought to passe , by rationall agents , working contingently and freely . and therefore as touching the question of the schooles about the root of contingency , aquinas and scotus concurre in resolving it into the will of god , but with this difference ; scotus relates it into the will of god as a free agent . aquinas resolves it into the will of god , as an efficacious agent . for the will of god is so efficacious , that he can effectually procure , both that things necessary shall be brought to passe necessarily , and things contingent , contingently ; and according he hath provided congruous causes hereof , to wit , both agents naturall for the produceing of necessary things necessarily , and agents rationall for the producing of contingent things , contingently and freely . thus god preordained that josias should burne the prophets bones upon the altar , that cyrus should proclaim liberty to the jewes , to returne into their country ; yet what sober divine hath made doubt , whether josias and cyrus did not herein , that which they did freely . and as in doing , so in abstaining from doing . for god ordained that christs bones should not be broken ; as also that when the jewes , all the males , came up to the lord thrice in the year to jerusalem , none of their neighbours should desire their land . exod. . . yet what sober man should make question , whether the souldiers did non as freely abstaine from breaking christs bones , as from ought else , and so likewise the bordering nations did as freely abstaine , from invading the land of israel . and how often is this phrase used in scripture , necesse est , of some things coming to passe , which yet came to passe as contingently and freely , as ought else . and unlesse this be granted , that gods determination is nothing prejudiciall to the freedome of the creatures will , either we must deny faith and repentance to be the gifts of god , or that they are works produced freely , and so every action pleasing in the sight of god. for the scripture expressely professeth , that god it is , who worketh in us every thing that is pleasing in his sight . and whatsoever god workes in us , or bestows upon us in time , the same he determined , to work in us , and to bestow upon us from everlasting . for he worketh all things according to the counsell of his will ephes . . . and the counsell of his will was everlasting , it being the same with god himselfe . now i come to the second . . and that is this . that all mens ends are unalterable and indeterminable by the power of their wills ; and this he saith is upon the matter all one . . now this is most untrue , there being a vast difference between the actions of men , and the ends of men ; the ends of men being the works of god. and what a monster shall he be in the church of god , that with vorstius shall dare to affirme , that all the works of god , were not determined from everlasting ; or being determined , they are alterable , and that in such sort , as to be otherwise determinable by the wills of men ; especially considering that the very acts of mens wills , being wrought by god , ( as all sides now a daies confesse ) it consequently followes that they were also determined from everlasting , by the will and counsell of god. what should i alleage the th article of ireland for this ? god from all eternity did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine , whatsoever in time should come to passe : yet so as thereby no violence is offered to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty nor contingency of second causes is taken away , but established rather . there is no arminian that i know dares deny , either that every act of man is wrought by god , or that , look what god doth work in time , the same he did before all time decree , and that from everlasting . i know there is a main , and a most atheisticall difference between us on one part , but i doe not find them willing to shew their hornes directly therein , but carry the matter so , as if they would obtrude upon us the acknowledgement , either of the temporall ( not eternall ) condition of decrees divine , or at least of their alterable nature ; whereas themselves dare not plainly manifest themselves , to be of any such atheisticall beliefe . let us instance in particular : let the salvation of some , and damnation of others , be the ends this author meaneth . now dare any of them with open face professe , that the salvation of the elect , and damnation of the reprobate was not from everlasting determined by god. be the supream ends of god concerning man , the manifestation of his glory in the way of mercy on some , in the way of vindicative justice on others . dare any of them professe , that any of these ends are not from everlasting determined by god ; or being so determined , dare they professe , that these divine decrees are alterable , or possible to be undetermined by the will of the creature ? what a prodigious assertion were either of these ? if they dare not say , gods will is changeable , what an unshamefac'd course is this , to obtrude upon us an alterable , that is , a changeable condition of gods decrees ? but perhaps you may say , here is no mention at all made of gods decrees , but of mans ends . and i willingly confesse there is not . and i am perswaded , this author dares not in plain termes professe , that gods decrees are alterable . but hereby you may perceive , and have a manifest document of the illusions of satan , and how mens carnall affections , which are more in love with errour then truth , doe make them to shut their eyes against the one , and open them unto the other . it were a very harsh thing to say plainly , that gods decrees are alterable , and that being determined by him , they might be undone , or made undetermined by the wills of men . therefore the devill finds a means to draw us , to entertain the same blasphemous opinion , not barefac'd , but hoodwickt as it were , and that is by changing the phrase . for though it be uncouth to heare of an alterable condition of gods decrees , yet it seems nothing harsh to discourse of the alterable condition of mens ends . but give me leave to unmask the witch , and make it appeare how the devill gulls us in this . mens ends are either so called , as intended by man himselfe , or as appoynted by god. if this author speak of mens ends , as intended by man himselfe , wee willingly grant , that they are alterable at his pleasure ; as for example , man intends one thing to day , he may intend another thing to morrow , he intends one thing this houre , he may intend another thing the next , and at his pleasure reverse his former intentions . and no marvail , considering that man partly is of a fickle disposition in respect of his affections , studious of change , and subject to innovation as the moone ; partly of an improvident disposition , he knows not what a yeare , what a month , what a day , what an houre may bring forth . and therefore though never so wise and constant in his courses , yet may he have just cause to change his resolutions and purposes . but of such ends of man , to wit , as intended by man , it is manifest this author speaks not . but of ends appointed by god , these be the ends he will have to be alterable and determinable anew by the wills of men , which cannot be without the alteration and change of gods purposes and intentions , which is as much as to say , without the change and revocation of gods decrees . and an end not yet actually existing , but only in intention , can admit of no other alteration then in intention , which this author considering not , though perhaps he abhorres to say gods decrees are changeable and alterable , and shuts out so uncouth an assertion at the fore-doore , yet as it were by a back-doore to receive it in , and in the dark and mufled , or veyled only with a different phrase , a different expression ; yet forthwith he takes a new course ; for whereas by the word unalterable , he did imply that gods decrees concerning mens ends , should be of an alterable condition ; in the words following he changeth his tone , and will not have the ends of man to be determined by god at all , but left unto man to be determined ; as when he saith , in vaine is our freedome in the actions , if the end which they drive at be pitched and determined . whereby it is manifest , he will not have the end whereunto men drive to be determined . and this end can be no other then salvation ; for that alone i take to be that whereto men drive , and which they labour to attaine , every one naturally seeking after summum bonum , after happinesse . so that in the issue it comes to this , the salvation of this author is not yet determined by god , but left to be determined by his will , and that i take to be in the way of a moving cause , and that moving cause i guesse to be , his finall perseverance in faith and repentance , whereupon and not till then , shall this mans salvation be determined by god , as much as to say , that gods decrees are as meerly temporall as are the executions of them . and herein this author doth exactly agree with doctor jackson perhaps being so happy as to understand him , or perhaps being so happy as to light upon an interpreter of him some one that breaths the same spirit of opposition to gods truth , and that after the same way . for sometimes the doctor pleads for a revocable condition of the divine decrees . for the pope never bindes his hands by any grant he makes ; and why should god bind his hands by any decree he makes ? especially considering that god hath more wisdome and goodnesse to manage such authority then the pope . but if it be dishonesty for a man to take liberty to break his promises , i pray what goodnesse is required to the managing thereof ? yet that doctor keeps his course in discoursing of an impotent immutability , and saith , it is indecent to attribute any such immutability unto god ; whereas immutability is a notion which connotates no power of doing at all , but only a power of suffering , and formally denotes the negation thereof . and what madnesse is it to say , that the lesse power god hath of receiving change , the lesse power he hath of working ? yet this is not all ; he hath another device answerable to the latter course of this author , and that is , that nothing , concerning any mans salvation or damnation , is determined by god before he is borne , or before his death : and to that purpose he saith that god is still decreeing , as if hitherto he had not decreed ought . and would you know of whom he learned this ? rogers in his exposition of the articles of the church of england , a book dedicated to arch-bishop bancroft , & allowed by the lawfull authority of the church of england , writing upon the th article , and delivering his second proposition , collected therehence , in this forme , predestination hath been from everlasting ; when he comes to set forth the adversaries of this truth , those wrangling sophisters , saith he , are deceived , who because god is not included within the compasse of any time , but hath all things to come as present before his eyes , doe say , that god he did not in the time long agoe past only , but still in the time present likewise doth predestinate . . consider we the reason he gives for so shamefull an assertion , as touching the alterable condition of gods decrees , or as touching the ends of men , as yet undetermined by god , in vaine , saith he , is freedome in the actions , if the end which they drive at , be determined . here , first , we have a wild phrase freedome in actions . for by freedome we understand an active power of working after a certain manner , which power is found in the will , not in the actions . secondly , a bare avouching that unlesse god as yet hath left the ends of men living undetermined , or in case he hath determined them , unlesse these determinations of his be alterable , freedome of will is given in vaine ; as much as to say , unlesse we admit of such monstrous assertions , the freedome of mans will is in vaine . but we say this consequence is most untrue , and we give our reason for it . for whether salvation or damnation be the ends he meaneth , no creature is capable of either , but only creatures rationall ; and the one being bestowed by way of reward , and the other inflicted by way of punishment , each of these presupposeth freedome of will in the parties thus proceeded with : or whether the ends are the manifestation of gods vindicative and remunerative justice , for the same reason now specified , each of these doth necessarily bespeak freedome of will in them , who after either way are made uselesse on whom the glory of god is to be manifested . when he addes saying omnis actio is propter sinem . this altogether concernes the ends intended , and proposed by the author of the action , nothing concernes the ends proposed by another . and the ends of a man proposed by himselfe , are either supreame or intermediate , still every action deliberate ( for so alone it holds ) tends to one end or other , which man himselfe intends . the supream end of every one is his chief good ; but as touching that wherein this consists , all doe not agree . some place it in wealth , some in pleasure , some in honour , some in virtuous life . by the light of grace we are taught , that as we are creatures , our end , which we should propose unto our selves , is the glorifying of god our creator , though there were neither reward nor punishment . but if there be a glorious reward to be gotten by it , and a dreadfull punishment to be suffered of them , that seek the satisfying of their own lusts , and not the glory of god , this is a double hedge unto us , to keep us in the good waies of the lord , and to move us to make strait stepps unto him ; but surely the end of the creature , still is the glorifying or god that made him . god makes it his care to provide for us , let our care be to glorify him ; for seeing all things are from him , therefore all things must be for him ; and seeing we are reasonable creatures , and know this we must goe on , in conforming our selves hereunto , and seeking his glory . and albeit this author may conceive , that salvation is the end he aimes at , yet can i not beleeve that he makes damnation the end that any man drives at . nothing being fit to be a mans end , but that which hath rationem boni , which surely damnation hath not . . his annotations as touching the three opinions proposed by him , come to be considered in the next place ; and these are two . . the substance and formality of them , which , as he saith is an unavoidablenesse of mens actions and ends whatsoever they be . and in this , he saith , all of them agree , all holding that in all things , undeclinable fates , and insuperable necessity doe domincere . whereunto i answer , that this is contradictory to his own premises , as touching the third opinion . for against the maintainers of gods absolute decree , he did formerly object only disjunctively , that either all mens actions were absolutely necessary , that is unavoidable , or at least , that mens ends were unavoidable ; which is to inferre , that but one of them is avoidable ; but here he professeth ( as upon that which he had formerly delivered ) that by the third opinion , both mens actions and their ends were unavoidable . and as for the second opinion of the manichees , i find no mention of the unavoidable condition , either of mans actions or ends at all , in the relation thereof , by those who have most studied their history . and as for the stoicks , i no where find , that they denied the liberty of mens will , or that it was in mans power , either to forbeare the doing of that he doth , or to doe the things he forbears to doe ; but rather the contrary , that they made choyce , some of them at least , ( though austin delivers it without any such distinction ) to exempt the wills of men from subjection unto fate : though i deny not , but that many vain discourses might be differently entertained by them , having no better light to guide them , then the light of nature , and wanting that which god hath in great mercy vouchsafed unto us , the light of grace , and that in very plentifull manner . much lesse doe i find by them , that any thing came to passe , invito deo. though i willingly confesse , that such a generation hath risen up in these daies , affirming that god willeth and desireth the salvation of all men , and yet the greater part of men are damned . and what is to come to passe , invito deo , if this be not , i willingly professe i know not . but melancthon , he saith , doth not spare to call this absolute decree , fatum stoicum , tabulas parcarum , and to charge the church of ceneva , with labouring to bring in the stoicks errours , as appears by melancthons epistle to peucer , and beza's confession in the life of calvin . to all which i answer . . that this author either was better read in melancthon then in luther , or no so just matter could he find in luther , to cry down the absolute nature of gods decrees . . beza reports what melancthon seems to some , and that epistle of his to peucer might be their ground . now therein he delivers his mind meerly upon laelius his relation , which was this , de stoico fato usque adeò litem genevae moveri , ut quidam in carcerem conjectus sit propterea quod a ●●one differret . this i say is laelius his relation made unto melancthon , whereupon melancthon saith no more then this , o mijera tempora ! doctrina salutis peregrinis quibusdam disputationibus obscuratur . . melancthon died foure years before calvin , the one anno . the other . and therefore if he did passe any censure on the church of geneva , it was in calvins daies , many years before his death . now calvin and he were very great : melancthon so well known and esteemed by calvin , that more then once he appeals to melancthons judgement . once in the point de caenâ domini , mentioned by osiander , hist . eccles . cent. . anno . pag. . which was but two years before his death . likewise in the poynt of free-will and predestination , as appears by calvins epistle unto him , prefixed to his books , de libero arbitrio , which he sent unto melancthon : was it ever known that melancthon passeth any censure upon them ? . when grotius in like manner objected melancthon , see i pray how lubbertus answereth him , in respon . ad pietatem grotii . quod ad melancthonem attinet , erras si ipsam stare pro remonstrantibus existimas , &c. idem melancthon in . ad romanos , cur inquit nos ad evangelium vocavit & non vocavit alexandrum macedonem , augustum , socratem , pomponium atticum , qui non minus civilitèr vivebant quàm nos . hic necesse est causam rejicere in voluntatem dei. et jacob electus est , esau reprobatus priusquam quicquam boni vel mali fecissent : ergo opera non erant causa , sed voluntas vocantis . non addam hic , quomodo cavillentur ista nonnulli . tantum hoc meminerit lector , si opera secutura in vita erunt causa electionis , non licuit apostolo dicere , non ex operibus . ex his constat ( sa it lubbertus ) melancthonem idem cum calvino & luthero de praedestinatione sensisle . fatetur hoc ipse melancthon ad calvinum ; suo ( inquiens ) haec cum tuis congruere , sed mea sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & ad usum accommodata . idem in epistolâ ad erasmum : ego integrâ conscientiâ non possum lutheri dogmata damnare . he proceeds farther to shew , the different method used by them in delivering the doctrine of praedestination . calvinus , saith he , à priori docet , illos qui electi sunt , immutabili dei consilio electos esse , atque inde infert illos perire non posse . melancthon verò a posteriori docet , nos ex verâ fide & seriâ resipiscentiâ discere quòd sumus electi , ego credo in jesum christum & seriò resipisco , ergo sum electus : atque ita in ipsâ re consentiunt . hanc enim melancthonis argumentationem approbat calvinus , & illam calvini approbat melancthon , tantum abest , ut alter alterius doctrinam rejiciat aut contemnat . . when i observed this relation made out of an epistle of melancthons unto calvin , i could not rest satisfied untill i had seen the epistle it selfe : at length i found it amongst calvins , epist . . therein coming to the poynt , ad quaestionem ( saith he ) de praedestinatione habebam amicum tubingae doctum hominem franciscum stadianum , qui dicere solebat , se utrumque probare , evenire omnia ut divina providentia decrevit , & tamen esse contingentia ; sed se haec conciliare non posse . here we have gotten one friend more then we looked for , and that a friend of melancthons also : and to what end doth he make mention hereof , but to give calvin to understand , that with him at tubing , there wanted not such as concurred with him in opinion , and that as touching the eveniency of all things , by the decree of gods providence , which yet might well consist with contingency , though we are not able to reconcile these , such is the mysterious nature of gods providence . and herein stadianus agrees with cajetan , and alvarez . for cajetan having professed that the distinctions devised by the learned , for the reconciling of gods predestination with the liberty of mans will , did not , quietare intellectum , thereupon he saith , ego captivo meum in obsequium fidei ; in quo ( saith alvarez ) doctissimè & pi●ssimè loquitur . melancthon goes on to represent his carriage in teaching , ego , saith he , cùm hypothesin hanc teneam , deum non esse causam peccati nec velle peccatum , posteà contingentiam in hâc nostrâ infirmitate judicii admitto , ut sciant rudes , davidem suâ voluntate ultrò ruere & eundem sentio , cum haberet spiritum sanctum , potuisse cum retinere ; & in eâ lucta aliquam esse voluntatis actionem . all these things he grants afterwards , to agree with the doctrine of calvin . but may not a man proceed farther ? and to dispute hereof something more accurately then this , he denyes it not : haec etiamsi subtilius disputari possunt , tamen ad regendas mentes hoc modo proposita , accommodata videntur . in the same manner he goes on , accusemus ipsi nostram voluntatem cùm labimur , non quaeramus in dei consilio causam & contra eum nos erigamus ; sciamus deum & velle opitulari & adesse luctantibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( inquit basilius ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet i presume no arminian will conceive that melancthon did not acknowledge this very act of willing to be the work of god , considering the apostle so expressely professeth , that god worketh in us both the will and the deed , according to his good pleasure ; and leo serm. . de epiphan . dubium non est hominem bona agentem ex deo habere & effectum operis & initium volumatis : & fulgentius epist . . ab ipso ( deo ) est initium bonae voluntatis . and if melancthon had any conceit opposite hereunto , yet let the opinion of the affrican bishops prevaile in authority above melancthon , who in their synodicall epistle write thus ( as it is alleaged by our divines act. synod . dordrac . pag. ) in vivificandis hominibus deus nullum initium humanae voluntatis expectat sed ipsam voluntatem , bonam faciendo , vivificat . and drawing to an end , i doe not write these things ( saith melancthon ) to deliver dictates unto you , who are most learned and most expert in the exercises of piety . and truly i know ( saith he ) that these things doe agree with yours , haec cum tuis congruere sed sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , woven with a thicker thred , & ad usum accommodata thus melancthon unto calvin , having received his books sent unto him , and written of free-will and predestination . . within two years after i find a letter written by calvin unto melancthon , wherein he professeth his joy of their agreement , as touching the main poynt , in that whereabout their opinions were asked , albeit with some difference in certain particulars , it is epist . . amongst those of calvins , and the words are these . deo autem maximas gratias agere non desino , qui dedit ut in ejus quaestionis summâ de quâ rogati eramus , sententiae nostrae congruerent . tametsi enim paululum est discriminis in particulis quibusdam , de re tamen ipsâ optime inter nos convenit . the second annotation of this author is , the circumstance or the ground of the three opinions mentioned . the stoicks deriving their necessity from the starres or first matter ; the manichees from the two supream causes ; and the authors of the third , from the peremptory decree of almighty god. and that in this difference , the stoicks and the manichees have the better , it being better ( as he saith ) to derive the necessity of evill actions , or unhappy events , from an evill god , or from the course of nature , then from the decree of that god who is infinitely good . the substance of the opinion is all one , the ground wherein they differ , is but accidentall to the errour . to this i answer . . is it so indeed , better to derive the necessity of unhappy events , from an evill god , or from course of nature , then from the decree of god ? is not god then to be accounted the author of evill in the way of punishment ? is there any evill in the citty , and the lord hath not done it ? or doth it lesse become him to be the author of affliction then of prosperity ? doth not the lord in the same place , and in the same manner professe , that he delights in the execution of judgement , as well as of mercy ? . as touching the necessity he speaks of , whether in good , or in evill actions ; consider i pray his carriage , he did not object unto us , that we made all the actions of men absolutely necessary , but either so , or the ends of men unavoidable . yet here he supposeth the former to serve his own turne in this present crimination , he holds it up , as it were contrary to his own conscience . we acknowledge the actions of men to be free , not one being performed by any , but in such sort , that they had power to forbear it , and still have to forbear the like : but upon supposition of gods decree , either to work in us any thing , that is pleasing in his sight ( which to be his gracious course , the apostle expresly professeth , heb. . . ) or to permit any particular evill , we willingly professe , that as well upon this , as upon gods foreknowledge , it followeth consequently that necesse est , that such a thing come to passe ; but how ? not necessarily , but agreeable to the condition of our reasonable natures , contingently and freely . and this arminius in plain termes professeth in the poynt of evill , to wit , supposing god permits a man to will this or that evill ; necesse est ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum , exam. pag. . but i will farther display the doctrine of these arminians , and prove , first , that no evill comes to passe , but that god did will it . secondly , that never was there any greater necessity known to the world , then that which these men bring upon good and evill actions , a necessity that binds the lord himselfe . . as touching the first ; these words of arminius are well known , deus voluit achabum mensuram scelerum sucrum implere . but i will prove it by their doctrine of scientia media : for hereby they maintain , that god foreseeth by what motives sinne will be hindered , or not hindered , without any prejudice to the liberty of the creatures will ; as also that god in the storehouse of his wisdome , hath such store of morall impediments , as that he knows thereby , how to hinder any sinne if it pleased him . his words are these , praeter illa sufficientia impedimenta , etiam efficacia habet in suo sapientiae & potentiae promptuario , quibus productis certò & infallibiliter peccatum impediretur . and this is the difference with him , between a sufficient impediment of sinne , and impediment effectuall . effectuall is that upon the use whereof , he knows full well , that sinne will be hindered . sufficient is that upon the use whereof , sinne will not be hindered , and this is known to the lord from everlasting . now let them tell me , why would not god make choyce to use such an impediment , which he knew would prove effectuall , but such rather , as he knew would prove ineffectuall . doth it not manifestly appear hereby , that it is gods will , that sinne shall come to passe by his permission ? like as the scripture is expresse to this purpose , as where it is said , that herod and pontius pilate with the gentiles , and people of israel were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe that which gods hand , and his counsell , had foredetermined to be done . now this is well known to have been no lesse then the ignominious handling and crucifying of the sonne of god. acts . . and revel . . . god put into the hearts of the kings to doe his will , and to give their kingdomes to the beast , as much as to say , to use their regall power , to the supporting of antichrist , which we know was in part by massacring the saints of god. . now to discover the strange necessity , that these men bring in upon all things : it cannot be denied , but that god knoweth all future things , before they come to passe . therefore they are presupposed to be future in order of reason before god , knows them to be future ; therefore all things future , are either such by necessity of nature , or by some cause ; not by any cause , for if there were any cause hereof , to wit , to make them passe out of the condition of things meerly possible of their own nature , into the condition of things future , then this cause should be found either within god or without god. not without god can any cause hereof be found . for this passage of things , out of the condition of things meerly possible , into the condition of things future , was from everlasting , therefore the cause hereof must have existence from everlasting . but nothing was everlasting , extra deum , out of god ; therefore if any cause hereof be to be found , it must be within god ; otherwise it must be confessed , that all things became future by absolute necessity of nature . if to help this , they will devise something within the nature of god , to be the cause hereof , let them tell us what that is . not the science of god , for all confesse , that secluding the divine will , gods knowledge is the cause of nothing . if they say , the will of god , they concurre with us in embracing the same opinion , which they so much abhorre . nothing remaines to fly unto , but the essence of god ; if they plead , that i demand , whether the essence of god working freely , be the cause of the futurition of all things , or as working necessarily ? if as working freely , that is as much as to confesse in expresse termes , that gods will is the cause thereof : but if they say the divine essence is the cause hereof , as working necessarily , hence it followes , that all things good and evill come from god , as working by necessity of nature . see i pray and consider the abominable , and atheisticall opinions , that these arminians doe improvidently cast themselves upon , when they stretch their witts to overthrow gods providence , as it is carryed in the th article of ireland , which is this , god from all eternity , did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine whatsoever in time should come to passe ; yet so as thereby no violence is offered to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty nor contingency of second causes is taken away , but established rather . in the conclusion , that which he vaunts of , as touching the fathers , is meer wind ; for he gives you nothing but his word for it ; which of what credit it deserves to be , i leave to the indifferent to judge . and as for the plucking up of the rootes of vertue which he fables of : consider i pray , what sect of philosophers were ever known to be more vertuous then the stoicks ; and how was zeno himselfe honoured by the athenians , for his grave and vertuous conversation ? hath not erasmus delivered it , as out of the mouth of hierome , that secta stoicorum was secta simillima christianae ? yet i no where find , that they brought in any necessity , that was not subordinate to the will of the supream god : but these arminians bring in a necessity of nature from without god , to make him to doe this , or that , if he doth any thing ; or at least , to make god himselfe a necessary agent , devoyd of all liberty and freedome , contrary to that of ambrose concerning the manner of gods working , namely , that it is , nullo necessitatis obsequio , but solo libertatis arbitrio . but according to these divines it must be quite contrary , nullo ●ibertatis arbitrio , solo necessitatis obsequio . and thus much as touching the first sort of this authors reasons , which he accounts only inducing ; i come to the other sort , which he esteemes convincing . the second part of the first book , wherein are examined those arguments against the absolutenesse of divine reprobation , which m r hord took to be of a convincing nature . oxford , printed by leonard lichfield printer to the vniversity . m. d. c. liii . the second part of this discourse , consisting of arguments convincing , whereof there are five sorts . the first sort of convincing reasons drawn from scripture . discourse . sect . i. those of the second sort , by which for the present i stand convinced , that absolute reprobation is no part of gods truth , are drawn from these five following heads , . pregnant testimonies of scripture directly opposite unto it . . some principall attributes of god not compatible with it . . the end of the word and sacraments , with other excellent gifts of god to men , quite thwarted by it . . holy and pious endeavours much hindered by it , if not wholly subversed . . the grounds of comfort , whereby distressed consciences are to be relieved , are all overthrown by it . it it contrary to pregnant places of scripture , even in terminis , as will appeare by these instances . . ezech. . . as i live saith the lord , i have no pleasure in the death of a sinner , but that the wicked turne from his waies and live . and least men should say 't is true , god wills not the death of a repenting sinner , the lord doth in another place of the same prophet , extend the proposition to them also that perish , ezech. . . i have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth . in this scripture we may note three things . . gods affection to men set forth . negatively , i have no pleasure in his death that dyeth . . affirmatively , but that the wicked turne . . the persons in whose destruction he delighteth not , wicked men , such as for the rejecting of grace dye and are damned . if god have no pleasure in their death , much lesse in the death of men , either altogether innocent , or tainted only with originall sinne . . the truth of this affection , as i live ; cupit sihi credi ( saith tertullian , lib. de paenit . cap. . ) god would faine have us to believe him , when he saith i will not the death of him that dyeth , and therefore he bindes his speech with an oath : o beatos nos quorum causa deus jurat , o miserrimos si nec juranti domino credimus . happy are we for whose sakes the lord vouchsafeth to sweare , but most unhappy if we believe him not when he swears . now if god delight not in the destruction of wicked men , he did never out of his own pleasure take so many millions of men lying in the fall , and seale them up by an absolute decree under invincible damnation : for such a kind of decreeing men to everlasting death , is quite opposite to a delight in mens eternall life . twisse consideration . to say that this or that opinion is untrue , because it doth in terminis contradict places of scripture , is a very superficiary consideration : yet it is not the first time that i have found it to drop from an arminians penne : but that it is a very superficiary consideration , i prove thus ; for to deny god the sonne to be equall to the father , is in terminis to contradict a pregnant place of scripture , phil. . where it is expressely said of god the sonne , that he thought it no robbery to be equall to the father : yet notwithstanding it is agreeable to that of our saviour , where he saith , the father is greater then i ; and so vice versâ . in like manner to say that god cannot repent , is in terminis to contradict pregnant places of scripture : again to say that god can repent , is in terminis to contradict other as pregnant places of scripture ; yet neither of these is unsound ; because each phrase is agreeable to scripture in some place or other . and the reason hereof is , because in terminis only to contradict the scripture , is not to contradict the scripture ; but when we contradict the meaning of scripture , then and not till then , are we justly said to contradict the scripture ; and the reason hereof is , because the word of god consists not in the outward barke or bone of the letter , but in the inward pith and marrow of the meaning . and as for contradiction unto scripture in terminis , it may easily be proved , that to deny gods delight in the destruction of obstinate sinners , is to contradict a very pregnant place of holy scripture , as namely prov. . , , . because i have called and ye refused , i have stretched out my hand and no man regarded ; but ye have set at naught all my counsell , and would none of my reproofe : i will also laugh at your calamity , i will mock when your feare cometh ; when your feare cometh as desolation , and your destruction as a whirlewind . and yet never a whit the more , is any contradiction found in scripture for this : because though they contradict each the other in terminis , yet there is no contradiction if we consider the true meaning : as for example , it is both true that the father is greater then the sonne , as touching the sonnes manhood ; and the sonne equall to the father as touching his godhead . so of repentance , it cannot be attributed to god as it signifies change of mind or counsell ; but it may be attributed unto god , as it signifies change of sentence ; according to that of gregory , deus mutat sententiam , consilium nunquam . so as touching gods pleasure or delight in the death of a sinner , as it is the destruction of the creature he delighteth not in it ; but as it is a just punishment of the impenitent creature , he delights therein : thus piscator reconciles it , on ezech. . v. , & . surely god delights in the execution of justice , as well as in the execution of mercy , as jer. . . i am the lord which exerciseth loving kindnesse , judgement , and righteousnesse in the earth , for in these things i delight saith the lord. . here first , the author declines from the former phrase , of having no pleasure in the death of a sinner , to not willing the death of a sinner ; which phrases have no small difference , as piscator observes upon that in ezech. . . for saith he , potest homo velle id quo non delectatur , ut aegrotus potest velle potum amarum , quo non delectatur , potest enim eum velle non perse , sed propter aliud , nempe ad recuper andam valetudinem . and to deny that god willeth the death of as many as dye , is in terminis to contradict a pregnant place of scripture , as where it is said , that god worketh all things according to the counsell of his will , ephes . . . and therefore seeing the inflicting of death is gods work he must will it : but this author is more happy for invention then his fellowes : for whereas others of his opinion , work upon the place as it is rendred in the vulgar latine , nolo mortem peccatoris : this author hath found out an argument from the very phrase of our last english translation , to advantage his cause , as when from gods having no pleasure in the death of a sinner , he quaintly inferres , therefore god doth not of meer pleasure , will or decree their death ; but how superficiary this is also , and how fouly it falls in the issue , upon the author himselfe ( as usually it falleth out with men , that affect new and quaint inventions ) i hope to discover in due place . farther observe ; that place , ezech. . . i have no pleasure in the death of the wicked , according to our last english translation , and that , ezech. . . have i any pleasure at all that the wicked should dye , doe differently render one and the same phrase in the hebrew , in the death of the wicked , ezech. . . which is word for word according to the hebrew ; that the wicked should dye ezech. . . which being not according to the precise termes of the originall , it followeth that hereby , our translators did expound the sense of the hebrew , which is word for word , in the death of the wicked , and so accordingly , that phrase , ezek. . . in the death of him that dieth , importeth as much as this , that he who dyeth should dye . and as for tertullian , that which he alleadgeth out of him , neither makes for him nor against us : we all believe what the prophet delivereth ; but we enquire about the sense of it ; but in the same place tertullian interprets the place not absolutely but comparatively , thus , vivo inquit dominus , & paenitentiam malo quam mortem , and indeed thus it is accommodated more then once in the book of common prayer , as first in the generall absolution ; then , in one of the collects upon good-friday : there is a double pleasure , that god may be said to take in the one , but a single pleasure only in the other . for in the death of an impenitent sinner , god delights only in the execution of justice : but in the conversion of such a one that he may live , god delights both in the execution of mercy , which is equivalent to his delight taken in the execution of judgement , and over and above he delights in their repentance ; for like as of such as fall from god , it is said , his soule hath no pleasure in them : so of such as turne unto him , it is as true , that his soule hath pleasure in them . . but give we him leave to enjoy the interpretation he affecteth , yet consider i pray , whether he doth not enjoy it tanquam diis iratis , and to his bane : for marke i pray his argument , and consider whether i doe not from the same argument , most strongly conclude against him . . his argument runnes thus , if god delighteth not in the destruction of wicked men , he did never out of his own pleasure , take so many millions of men lying in the fall , and seale them up by an absolute decree under invincible damnation . now from the rule of contraries , i herehence dispute thus ; if this be a good consequence which he makes , then on the contrary it followes , that seeing god doth take pleasure and delight in mans eternall life ( as this author expressely acknowledgeth ) therefore he did out of his own pleasure , take so many million of men lying in the fall , and seale them up by an absolute decree under invincible salvation . now this conclusion is as directly opposite unto him in the poynt of election , as his conclusion is opposire to ours in the poynt of reprobation . and my argument must be of the same force and validity with his ; because contrariorum contraria est ratio . yet i will not content my selfe with this answere . . therefore consider i pray in the next place , the true meaning of this phrase i have no pleasure : in these places of the prophet , the author himselfe though he doth not plainly professe what is the meaning of it , as it became him to doe , and not to depend upon colour of words suitable ; yet by his drift he manifests the meaning of it to be this , that god doth not bring death upon a sinner , of meere pleasure , but being provoked thereunto , ( and that according to the purport of the first place ezech . . ) by the sinner himselfe ; and also , ( according to the purport of the second place ) only in case of impenitency . and i concurre with him in this : and so i conceive it to be delivered in the same sense with that lament . . , . for though he cause griefe ( to wit by reason of mens sinnes v. . ) yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies , ( to wit , in case he repents ier. . . iudg. . . ) for he doth not afflict willingly , nor grieve the children of men . mark i pray , not willingly ; to wit , in as much as he is provoked thereunto by sinne , and by refusall to repent . and this is in the former scripture phrases , not to take pleasure in the afflicting and grieving of men . for if any work be such , as wherein pleasure is taken ; we need not enquire after a cause why it is done , but though no pleasure be taken in it , yet for some benefit redounding thereby , a man may doe it , yea though it be grievous and bitter unto him : as a sick man is willing to take a bitter potion for the recovery of his health . now come we to the argument : god takes no pleasure in the death of any ; therefore he doth not of pleasure inflict death . we willingly grant it , in as much as he never inflicts eternall death on any , that doth not dye in sinne unrepented of : and as he doth not inflict death on any of meere pleasure , that is , without just cause on the part of him that dyeth , deserving it : so we willingly confesse , that god did never decree to inflict death on any without just cause on the malefactors part deserving death . and this is the uttermost whereunto this authors argument can be extended . and all our divines unanimously confesse , that god neither decreed to damne any man of his meer pleasure , but for his sinne wherein he died without repentance . . observe the cunning of this disputer , to deceive himselfe first , and then to abuse his readers : for whereas he should have proceeded in his argument by degrees , thus ; god hath no pleasure in the death of a sinner , therefore he doth not of his own pleasure inflict death ; and thence proceed ( if he had thought good ) to conclude the like of gods decree , thus ; if god doth not of his ownpleasure inflict , then neither doth he of his own pleasure decree to inflict death and damnation : this author leaping over the inflicting of death , as a block in his way ( for the last consequence would have betrayed its own nakednesse ) flyeth at first to the application of it , to gods decree : now i willingly grant , that gods having no pleasure in the death of a sinner , doth signify , that god inflicts death on no man without a cause , for that were of meer pleasure to inflict : but dares he herehence inferre , therefore god doth not of meer pleasure decree to inflict death and damnation on man for sinne , for to this alone comes all the force of this argument . now to shew the vanity of this consequence , consider i pray . . it is as if he should argue thus in plain termes ; sinne is alwaies the meritorious cause of damnation ; therefore sinne is the meritorious cause of gods eternall decree of damnation : now this enthymeme hath no force any farther , then it may be reduced into a categoricall syllogisme ; and this enthymeme is reducible into no other syllogisme then this ; damnation is the decree of damnation , sinne is the cause of damnation , therefore sinne is the cause of the decree of damnation . but in this syllogisme the proposition containes a notorious untruth : or thus , sinne is the cause of damnation ; therefore the foresight of sinne is the cause of the decree of damnation : but this enthymeme is not reducible unto any categoricall syllogisme at all , for as much as it consists of foure termes ; all which must be clapt into the syllogisme whereunto it is reduced , and consequently make that syllogisme consist of foure termes , which utterly overthrowes the illative forme thereof . . we may as well dispute thus ; good works as well as faith and repentance are the disposing cause unto salvation , therefore good works as well as faith and repentance ( or the foresight of them ) are the disposing cause to gods election , or to the decree of salvation . but shall i tell you , the chiefe flourish whereupon this author ( and usually the arminians ) doth insist in this his loose argumentation , i conceive it to be this ; they hope their credulous readers , unexpert in distinguishing between gods eternall decree , and the temporall execution thereof , will be apt hereupon to conceit , that we maintain , that god doth not only of meer pleasure decree whatsoever he decreeth , but also that he doth decree of meer pleasure to damne men : which yet is utterly contrary ( if i be not deceived ) to the tenet of all our divines : all concurring in this , that god in the execution of the decree of damnation , proceeds according to a law , and not in the execution of reprobation only , but also in the execution of election . and the law is this , whosoever believes shall be saved , whosoever believes not shall be damned , and like as he inflicteth not damnation , but by way of punishment , so he conferres not salvation but by way of reward . but in the execution of his decrees of election unto grace , and reprobation from grace ; we willingly professe that god proceeds according to no law given unto men , to prepare themselves hereunto , but meerly according to his good pleasure , having mercy on whom he will , and hardning whom he will : and this indeed is the criticall poynt of this controversy : but neither this author nor his complices ( some of them of my knowledge ) have any heart to deale on this . i come to his second pregnant place as he calleth it . discourse . sect . ii. god hath shut up all in unbeliefe , that he might have mercy on all . rom. . . in these words of the apostle are two [ all 's ] of equall extent ; the one standing just against the other ; an [ all ] of unbelievers , and an [ all ] of objects of mercy ; look how many unbelievers there be , on so many hath god a will of shewing mercy . and therefore if all men of all sorts and conditions , and every man in every sort be an unbeliever , then is every man of every condition under mercy , and if every man be under mercy , then there is no antecedent precise will in god of shutting up some ( and those the most ) from all possibility of obtaining mercy ; for these two are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they cannot stand together . twisse consideration . i willingly grant the word [ all ] in each place is of equall extent , but how ? in the apostles meaning in this place ; that is , look in what sense the apostle takes the word [ all ] when he saith god hath concluded all under unbeliefe : in the same sense he takes the word [ all ] when he sayeth , that he might have mercy upon all . and accordingly in case when he saith the one he meaneth by the word [ all ] no more but jewes & gentiles : it followes that when he saith god hath mercy on all , by the word [ all ] he understands no more then both jewes and gentile , and that is , certain nations of men only , not all men of all sorts and conditions ; and therefore although it were granted him , that all men of all sorts are unbelievers , yet unlesse he can prove , that in this sense the apostle speaketh of [ all ] in saying god hath concluded all under infidelity , let any one that is indifferent , judge whether this argument be of any force . thus our divines understand it , to wit , of jewes and gentiles : thus aquinas and sasbutius popish divines interpret it . aquinas his words are these , omnia , id est , omne hominum genus , tam judaeos quam gentes in incredulitate conclusit , ut omnium misereatur , id est , ut in omni hominum genere misericordia locum habeat ; and again ; non est extendendum ad omnes homines sigillatim , sed ad omnia genera hominum : fit enim hic distributio pro generibus singulorum , & non pro singulis generum . so cajetan . conclusit permissive omnes tam judaeos quam gentes in peccatum infidelitatis . the text it selfe doth cleerely justify this , as appears by the two verses immediatly preceding , wherewith this coheres . v. . for even as the gentiles in times past have not believed god , yet have now obtained mercy , through ( the jewes ) unbeliefe . . even so now have they ( the jewes ) not believed , by the mercy shewed to you gentiles , that they also , that is , the jewes , may obtain mercy . this construction was embraced of old by austin , as appears by beda upon the romans , alleadging august . de civit. dei lib. . conclusit deus omnes in infidelitate ut omnium misereatur . quos omnes ? nisi de quibus loquebatur , tanquam dicens & vos & illos . deus ergo & gentiles & judaeos , quos praescivit & praedestinavit conformes fieri imagini filii sui , omnes in infidelitate conclusit , & de amaritudine infidelitatis suae paenitendo confusi , & ad dulcedinem misericordiae dei credendo conversi clamaret &c. and anon after , omnium itaque miseretur vasorum misericordiae : quid est omnium ? & eorum scilicet quos ex gentibus , & eorum quos ex judae is praedestinavit . . observe how he hides himselfe under an ambiguous phrase , least he should come with his foule opinion to the light : as when he saith every man of every condition is under mercy . the apostles phrase on gods part is misereri , to shew mercy ; on mans part as partaking hereof is to obtain mercy . v. . . and to obtain mercy is to believe . v. . as appears by the opposition : for to obtain mercy and not to believe , are there made opposite , therefore to obtain mercy and to believe are the same : for to believe and not to believe are formally opposite . now dares this author avouch , that every man of every condition doth believe ? again the apostles word ut misereatur , that he may shew mercy , is not spoken of the time present ; for as much as for the time present , the lord had mercy only on the nations of the gentiles : but the time should come , that god would also have mercy on the jewes , and consequently on all . but when should this come to passe ? surely not 'till years after , to wit , when the time cometh which is appoynted for the effectuall and generall calling of the nation of the jewes . so that the foundation being most rotten , no marvail if the edifice he builds hereupon must needs totter . for the jewes were thus to be shut up under infidelity , for many hundred years , to wit , untill the time came which the apostle prophesyeth of . and so were the gentiles also before them , 'till the time came of their calling . and thus sasbutius interpreteth the apostle in this very place . sensus est ( saith he ) sic visum est deo dispensare utriusque populi salutem , iudaeorum videlicet & gentium ; ut permitteret utrumque populum suo vitio concludi , sive constringi , sub incredulitate & damnatione . concludi , inquam , ne ullâ ratione poscit ex incredulitate suâ vinculo se liberare , ut ipsius misericordia gratuita locum habere agnoscatur in utroque populo tam iudaeorum quam gentium . thus we see that both his [ all 's ] are not worth a bodkin ; and to give him two [ all 's ] more to encrease his store , we may justly say that all this is nothing at all to the purpose . discourse . sect . iii. iohn . . god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten sonne , that whosoever &c. god loved the world , that is , the whole lump of man-kind , therefore god did not absolutely hate the greatest part of man-kind . god loved it fallen into a guilt of sinne and misery , for he so loved them , as to send his sonne to redeeme them ; and a saviour presupposeth sinne . he did not therefore hate the most of them considered in the fall , for love and hatred are contrary acts , and cannot be exercised about the same object . many expositors ( i know ) doe take world here in a restrained sense , and understand by it the company of the elect , or the world of believers only , but they have little reason for it ( in my opinion ; ) for , . i think there can be no place of scripture alleadged wherein this word world especially with the condition of whole , as in epist . of iohn . . . ( which is a place equivalent to this for the matter of it , and a comment upon it ) i say ( i think ) no place can be produced where world doth signify only the elect , or only believers ; but it signifies either all men , or at least , the most men , living in some certain place , and at some certain time , but without distinction of good and bad : or if it be used any where more restrainedly , it is applyed only to the wicked and reprobate men , who are wedded in their affections to the world , and the transitory delights thereof , and therefore doe most properly deserve this name . . suppose it be granted that world in some scriptures is restrained to the elect , yet it cannot bear this signification here ; because , . the words then would have a bad and senselesse construction ; for thus would they runne , god so loved the elect that whosoever believed in him should not perish &c. and if they runne thus , then this would follow , there are two sorts of the elect , some that doe believe , and shall be saved ; others that doe not believe , and shall be damned , which is a division or distinction unknown in divinity . . believers and vnbelievers , damned and saved comprehend all man kind , for there is no man but is one of these . now world in this place includeth believers and unbelievers , the saved and the damned , ( as appears most plainly to him that considers the words ; ) therefore it signifieth here all man kind without exception of any . against this scripture therefore fights this absolute reprobation and hatred of men . twisse consideration . be it the whole lump of man-kind ( if that lettice like his lipps . ) i should think by world , is meant homines in mundo degentes , men at any time living in the world without any restraint : but herehence it followeth not , that god doth not absolutely hate the greatest part of man-kind ; which this author should have proved , but he doth not ; therefore i will not only deny it , but disprove it . first therefore consider , this love is only secundum quid , in reference to mens persons , namely , so farre forth as in case they believe , they shall obtain everlasting life through the sonne of god : but if there were no farther love of god towards man , they might be damned , yea every mothers sonne for all this . secondly , if faith it selfe be a gift of god , and god gives it not to all , but to some only , and those but a few ; ( for even of them that are called few are chosen : ) and withall if god hath absolutely decreed to bestow this grace only on a few , and deny it to the greatest part of the world , will it not manifestly follow herehence , that if absolutely to decree the denyall of faith be to hate , then surely god absolutely hates the greatest part of men , notwithstanding this love here mentioned , albeit we extend it to all and every one . therefore it became this author to prove , that god is indifferent to give faith to one as well as to another : and that either absolutely , whence it would follow , that all and every one , should both believe and be saved ; or conditionally , and therewithall represent unto us , what that condition is , whereupon god bestowes faith on one , and for the want thereof , he refuseth to bestow faith on another . this is the very criticall poynt about the controversies of gods decrees . here therefore he should have shewed his strength : for as for gods purpose to damne , we willingly professe , that as god damnes no man but for sinne , so he purposeth to damne no man but for sinne . but as for his purpose to give or deny the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance , we as readily professe , that not the purpose only , but the very giving of faith and repentance , for the curing of infidelity and hardnesse of heart in some , and the denying of it unto others , so to leave their naturall infidelity and hardnesse of heart uncured , proceeds meerely according to the good pleasure of his will , according to that of the apostle , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ; and by a cloud of testimonies out of austin we can prove , that in this very sense he understood the apostle in that place . and indeed no other interpretation of that place , can with any modesty be devised , or obtruded upon us . as for the redeeming of all and every one by christ , distinguisheth that which the haters of gods truth doe delight to confound . there is a redemption from the guilt of sinne , and a redemption from the power of sinne : for we are redeemed from our vaine conversation . christ came into the world to dissolve the works of the devill : no greater works of satan then blindnesse of heart , cor. . . and hardnesse of heart , ephes . . . and tim. . last . the pardon of sinne , and salvation , god bestowes only on believers , and upon condition of faith : now like as god is ready to bestow these benefits on all and every one , and that for christs sake , in case they believe : so christ hath merited pardon of sinne and salvation for all and every one , in case they believe . such is the sufficiency of christs merit , that if every one of adams race should believe , every one should be saved : and this present text proceeds upon this , namely , upon the sufficiency of christs merits . but enquire farther whether christ did not merit for us the grace of faith , and if he did , whether absolutely of conditionally ; if absolutely then all must believe de facto , and be saved ; if conditionally , then faith is a grace , which god bestowes on man conditionally . now let this author shew us what that condition is , upon performance whereof by man , god will give him faith , and let him try whether he can carry himselfe so warily herein , as not to plunge himselfe into plain pelagianisme . this poynt is a break-neck , or crevecoeur unto all arminians , they generally avoyd the delivering of their minds clearly hereupon , as a man would avoyd a precipice . it is true some divines doe interpret the word [ world ] here , of the elect , as piscator ; rolloc doth not , making no mention of the elect hereupon . and piscators meaning is no more then this , viz. that this love of god in respect of every gracious effect ( i mean in the way of sanctifying grace ) determins only upon the elect ; for in all likelihood , he followed calvin in this , universalem notam apposuit ( saith calvin ) tum ut promiscuè omnes ad vitae participationem invitet , tum ut praecidat excusationem incredulis . to the same purpose ( saith he ) pertaines nomen mundi , quo prius usus est . and again , se toti mundo propitium ostendit , quum sine exceptione omnes ad fidem vocat : but here he subjoynes a caution , thus ; caeterum meminerimus ita communiter promitti omnibus vitam si in christo crediderint , ut tamen minime communis omnium sit fides . patet enim omnibus christus & expositus est , solis tamen electis oculos deus aperit & fide ipsum quaerant . so that this gracious promise is generall to all and every one , whosoever believes shall be saved ; but yet notwithstanding if it shall appeare , that god gives the grace of faith , to none but to a certain number , ( which are his elect ) it followes , that the effect of this love of god , to wit , salvation shall in the issue redound to none but gods elect. . as for the designing a place where the world is taken for the elect ; we need no such place , as i have shewed ; yet piscator conceives that so it is taken , iohn . . that the world might be saved by him . but what think you of rom. . . where the casting away of the jewes is said to be the reconciliation of the world. and that cor. . . god was in christ reconciling the world unto himselfe . i say the reconciled world is only gods elect , for the reconciled are all saved , as i prove by the apostles argument rom. . if when we were enemies we were reconciled to god by the death of his sonne , how much more being reconciled shall we be saved by his life . ioh. . . the lamb of god that taketh away the sinnes of the world. are their sinnes taken away that are damned for them ? and ioh. . . he gives life to the world ; is life given to any but to the elect ? . the second reasons , why in this place it cannot be so taken , are in effect but one , and that a weake one : . because , that they that understand it of the elect , understand it so in no other sense , but as i have expounded it . . if i should say of the twelve apostles ( judas excluded , and matthias substituted in his roome ) that god so loved them , that he gave his only begotten sonne , that whosoever of them believed in him , should not perish but have everlasting life ; who can deny , but that this was a truth accommodated unto them ? but will it here hence follow , that among those apostles , some were believers some unbelievers ? suppose all the world were elect , and it pleased god to give them all faith , should this doctrine be the lesse true , whosoever believes shall be saved ? yet in this case it would not follow , that amongst the world of men some were believers , and some unbelievers . but whereas he faines , that some of our divines should interpret the word [ world ] here of believers , that is such a fiction as is incredible . i come to the fourth . discourse . sect . iv. . timoth . . . who would have all to be saved and come to the knowledge of his truth . in these words the apostle delivers two things . . that it is gods will , that all men should obtain an happy end , viz. salvation . . that it is his will also , that they should use and enjoy the means , which is the knowledge of his truth , that so they might obtain the end , the salvation of their soules ; there is no let in god , but that all men may believe and be saved , and therefore there is no absolute will , that many thousands of men shall never believe nor be saved . two answers are usually returned , which give me little satisfaction : the first is , that by all we are to understand all sorts , and not every particular man in every sort and condition . it is true that [ all ] is sometimes so used in scripture , but ( i believe ) not here : for the very text shewes that we are to understand by it , the individualls and not the kindes : v. . there is a duty enjoyned , i will that prayers and supplications be made for all men , and in this verse the motive is annexed , god will have all to be saved ; as if he should have said , our charity must reach to all , whom god extends his love to : god will have all to be saved , therefore we must pray for all : now in the duty all signifies every man , for no man though wicked and prophane , is to be excluded from our prayers ; pray for them ( saith our saviour ) that persecute you ; and pray ( saith the apostle here ) for kings , and all that are in authority , men in those daies ( though the greatest ) yet the worst , yea very wolves , and lyons , and bears of the church ; pray for them , and if for them , then for any other , thus in the duty it signifies every man ; and if it doe so in the duty , it must have the same extent in the motive too ; or else the motive will not reach home , nor have strength enough to enforce the duty . the second answer is , that god will have all to be saved with his revealed will , have millions to be damned with his secret will. if this answer stand , then ( in my understanding ) these inconveniences will follow . . that gods words ( which are his revealed will ) are not interpretations of his mind and meaning , and by consequence are not true ; for oratio quae non est mentis significatio , simulatio est . . that there are two contrary willes in god ; a secret will , that many sonnes of adam shall irrevocably be damned ; and a revealed will , that all the sonnes of adam may be saved . . that one of gods wills must needs be bad , either the secret will , or the revealed ; for of contraries if the one be good , the other is bad ; and so of gods contrary wills , if the one be good , the other must needs be bad , for malum is contrarium bono . twisse consideration . the conclusion here is very loose ; the arguments being thus ; it is gods will that all should be saved ; therefore there is no absolute will , that many thousands of men shall never believe nor be saved : and the vanity of this consequence , i will shew more waies then one . . the apostle doth not say , it is the absolute will of god that all men shall be saved : nay vossius interprets this place , and that according to the meaning of the ancients , of voluntas conditionata , a conditionall will in god , not absolute ; and he gives instance of it thus ; it is the will of god that all shall be saved , in case they believe in christ . now albeit it be the conditionall will of god that all , and every one shall be saved in case they believe , yet this hinders not , but that it may be the absolute will of god , that many thousands of men shall never be saved ; as in case his will be to deny the grace of faith and repentance to many thousands , as it is cleare and undeniable that he doth . nay the remonstrants themselves , and particularly an arminian that i had to doe withall lately , spared not to professe , that election is absolute ; if so , then reprobation also is absolute ; and i doubt not but that they will all confesse , that howbeit gods will be , that all should be saved , yet thousands are reprobated . . suppose the apostle had said , it is the absolute will of god , that all men shall be saved , yet i say it followes not herehence , but that by the absolute will of god many might faile of falvation : for it was the absolute will of god , that every foure footed beast should be represented to peter , let downe unto him in a linnen vessell ; yet neverthelesse it might be that many thousands were not represented to him , and that by the will of god. thus having discovered the vanity of this conclusion ; i will now proceed to demonstrate that this place cannot be understood , of gods will in proper speech , viz. willing all and every one to be saved . . like as it is impossible , that a man at the same time should be saved and damned ; so it is impossible , that god should at the same time and duration , both will to save and will to damne the same man : but god from everlasting did will to damne many thousands ; therefore it was impossible , that from everlasting he should will to save them . . if it be gods will that all and every one shall be saved ; then all and every one shall be saved , for who hath resisted his will. rom. . . and for confirmation hereof , we find in our selves , that if we will doe ought , we doe it if we can ; and if we doe not ought , the reason is , either because we have no will to doe it , or because we have no power to doe it . in like sort , that god doth not save many thousands , the reason must be , either because he will not , or because he cannot ; not because he will not ; for these professe that it is his will to save all and every one ; therefore the reason why he doth not save all , must needs be , because he cannot save them : this was austins argument years agoe . enchirid. cap. . and . handling this very place of the apostle . . if god did from everlasting will the salvation of all and every one , then either at this day he doth continue to will the salvation of all and every one , and shall continue for ever to will it , or no ; if he doth continue to will it and ever shall , then say that god doth will the salvation of the damned both men and divells ; albeit it is well known he damnes them . if he doth not continue to will it , then is god of a changeable nature ; directly contrary to the word of god , as well as to manifest reason : with him ( saith iames ) is no variablenesse nor shadow of change . i the lord am not changed , mal. . . as for that which he thrusts in , to help make weight , saying , that there is no let in god , but that all men may believe and be saved , this is a most improper speech ; for no man is said ( in proper speech ) to be let from doing ought , but upon presupposition that he would doe it ; now we utterly deny that god hindreth any man from believing and repenting , whose will is disposed to believe and repent . but seeing all men have infidelity and hardnesse of heart naturall unto them , as a fruit of that corruption wherein all are borne ; we deny that god c●●es it in all , but only in whom he will , according to that of saint paul , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . and our saviour upon the same ground , is bold to tell the jewes , saying , ye therefore heare not my words ( that is , believe them not ) because ye are not of god. . the first exposition here mentioned was given by austin , many hundred years agoe . enchirid. cap. . and he proves this his interpretation of the word [ all ] by the congruity of it to scripture phrase in other places , as where it is said of the pharises , that they tythe every herbe ; his words are these , i●to locuti●nis modo & dominus usus est in evangelio , ubi ait phariseis , decimatis mentham , & rutam , & omne olus : neque enim pharisei quaecunque aliena , & omnium per omnes terras alienigenarum omnium olera decimabant . sicut ergo hic omne olus , omne olerum genus ; it a & illic omnes homines , omne hominum genus , intelligere possumus : yet see the ingenuity of this great light of the church of god : for forthwith he gives leave to devise any other convenient interpretation ; provided that we doe not violate gods omnipotency , by saying , that any thing that god would have brought to passe , is not brought to passe ; his words are these , et quocunque alio modo intelligi potest , dum tamen credere no cogamur aliquid omnipotentem deum noluisse fieri , factumque non esse ; qui sine ullis ambagibus si in caelo & terra ( sicut & veritas cantat ) omnia quaecunque voluit fecit : profecto facere noluit , quaecunque non fecit . this interpretation is generally received by our divines , because of the congruity thereof to the text it selfe ; for as much as the apostle having first admonished them in the generall to pray for all , forthwith he descends to specialls , as vossius acknowledgeth , generi speciem subjicit ; now look in what sort the species is to be understood , after the same manner is the generall to be understood . now the specialls mentioned , are certain sorts or conditions of men , as kings , and such as are in authority ; therefore the generall [ all ] must in like manner be understood of all sorts , and all conditions of men : upon this consideration also it was that austin did insist , in the place before alleadged : praeceperat ( saith he ) apostolus ut or aretur pro singulis hominibus , & specialiter addiderat pro regibus , & iis qui in sublimitate sunt , qui putari poterant fastu & superbia seculari a fidei christianae humilitate abhorrere . proinde dicens , hoc enim bonum est coram salvatore nostro deo , id est , ut etiam pro talibus oretur ; statim ut desperationem tolleret , addit , qui omnes homines vult salves fieri , & in agnitionem veritatis venire . hoc quippe deus bonum judicavit , ut orationibus humilium dignaretur , praestare salutem sublimium . now i come to consider what this author hath to say against this exposition , for he gives us very gravely to understand , that it gives him little satisfaction : we are therefore to expect some better satisfaction from him . it is true that [ all ] is so used in scripture , not only some times , but very frequently ; let him come to instance in his sense , we are ready to instance with him for ours . but the text ( saith he ) shewes we are to understand the individualls and not the kindes . where first ( i doubt ) his ignorance , in understanding the distinction aright , is his best ground of opposition . when austin urgeth for his interpretation , that of the pharises tything omne olus , every hearb , who doubts but they tythe individuall hearbs . in like sort when peter saw in a vessell let down unto him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 every foure footed beast ; no question but individuall beasts were let down unto him , not every one of every kind , but of every kind or of most kinds , or of many kinds some , so that the meaning of the distinction is not to exclude all individualls ( as this author seems to carry the matter , ) but only , to exclude a necessity of understanding all individualls of all sorts . it is enough if god will save some of all sorts , that is , of all conditions some individualls . then , seeing he undertakes out of the very text , to give us better satisfaction , then either austin or our divines have hitherto received , it must needs be a shame for him to leave the present text , and fetch grounds elsewhere , for the clearing of pauls meaning here . now let us observe , how congruously or incongruously to his own undertakings , he carryeth himselfe in this businesse : of the duty enjoyned , and of the motive annexed , there is no question : but whereas he shapes the coherence thus , and makes paul in effect to speak after this manner ; our charity must reach to all to whom god extends his love to ; god will have all to be saved , and therefore we must pray for all . though all this were granted him , it makes nothing for him : but over and above here are causelesse errours more then enough : for , first , our charity must extend farther then gods love ; was not jacob bound to carry himselfe charitably towards his brother esau ? though gods hatred of esau , we know was as ancient as his love to iacob . . we are not bound to extend our charity so far as god extends his love ; for many thousands there be in the world , ( not to speak of the elect departed this life ) towards whom it may be god extends his love , which yet are unknown to us ; & are we bound to pray for we know not whom . again , gods love , with this author , is extended as farre as his will to save , and that is extended to all and every one : and unlesse god be now changed , it must extend to them now after they are damned , and must our charity be extended towards them also ? but he proceeds , let us proceed with him . now ( saith he ) [ all ] in the duty signifies every man ; but that we deny ; he gives his reason , for no man though wicked and prophane , is to be excluded from our prayers . against this i have two exceptions , ( and yet if the whole be granted him , it maketh nothing for him : ) my first exception is this ; he promised to give us satisfaction out of the text it selfe ; but who seeth not but that this rule of his , is brought in quite besides the text : i from the text have proved , and from the coherence between the generall and the speciall , that the speciall being certain particular conditions of men , the generall [ all ] must conformably be understood of all conditions . my second exception is this ; he obtrudes upon us , that no man , though wicked and prophane , is to be excluded from our prayers . i confesse i doe not find my selfe apt to exclude any from my prayers ; but i cannot endure , that a bold fellow should obtrude his rules upon us as oracles . the apostle saint iohn forbids us to pray for them that sinne a sinne unto death . but let all this be granted , what then ? if it extends to every one in the duty , it must have the same extent in the motive too ; but this i deny ; he saith , else the motive will not reach home , nor have strength enough to enforce the duty : but this likewise i deny ; and shew withall , how the motive shall reach home , and have strength enough even to enforce this duty , according to this authors accommodation of it ; albeit god hath a will not to save all and every one , but of all sorts and all conditions some ; of kings some , of them that are in authority some ; for seeing god saves of all sorts some , why should not every christian subject , pray for his prince and rulers , seeing it may be they are those some , whom god means to save , even of the ranke of princes , of the ranke of governors , and of men in authority . for god hath not revealed to us , who they are whom he hath elected , and who they are whom he hath reprobated . if he had , austin tells us what we should doe in that case , de civit . dei. lib. . cap. . si de aliquibus it a ecclesia certa esset , ut qui sunt illi etiam nosset , qui licet adhuc in hac vitâ sint constituti , tamen praedestinati sunt in aeternum ignem ire cum diabolo , tam pro i is non or aret , quam pro ipso . if it shall be farther urged , that we are to pray for all kings , and all that are in authority , not only for our own ; i answer , that this is nothing agreeable to the end of such prayers here expressed by the apostle , namely , that under them we may live a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty . and what have we here in england , to doe with the king of bungo , that we should pray for him , or for the kings in terrâ australi incognitâ , discovered by ferdinando de quir , or for the great duke of crapulia ? . as for the second interpretation ; i doe not find it so usuall with our divines : cajetan distinguisheth here between voluntas signi and beneplaciti ; so doth aquinas , and this distinction of voluntas occulta and revelata , is usually reduced to that of voluntas signi and beneplaciti ; but voluntas signi , and voluntas revelata , is more congruously applied to the things which god commands , then to the things which god himselfe worketh ; as for example , he commands faith and repentance ; and the commandements of god , are usually called the will of god in scripture , though improperly ; and thus the distinction is plain . god commands one thing , but it is not necessary , that he should will , that that which he commands shall come to passe : as for example , god commanded abraham to sacrifice isaack , yet he determined that isaack should not be sacrificed , as appeared by the event . in like manner he commanded pharaoh to let israel goe , yet withall told moses he would harden his heart , that he should not let israel goe . but this will of god called voluntas signi and revelata , cannot so congruously be said to passe upon mans salvation . yet because god may be said to command salvation , in as much as he commands faith and repentance , that we may be saved ; and in this sense , men are exhorted sometimes to save themselves ; as , save your selves from this froward generation ; and save some out of the fire with feare ; and that thou maist both save thy selfe and them that heare thee ; therefore we are content also to admit of this distinction , and consider with what judgement and sufficiency this author doth impugne it . . by his first opposition , it appears , that meer ignorance bears him out against this distinction ; for we doe acknowledge , that gods revealed will , and his words revealing it , are true interpretations of his own mind and meaning ; though not of such a meaning as he expects should be fashioned . for he conceives that gods will in this case , is only of what shall be done ; which is most untrue : hereby is only signified , what is mans duty to doe , although it may be god will not give him effectuall grace to doe it . as for examples sake , when god commanded pharaoh to let israel goe ; hereby was signified , that god would have it to be pharaohs duty to let israel goe ; though withall he professes to moses , that he would harden pharaohs heart , whereupon he should refuse to let them goe . so when god commanded abraham to sacrifice isaack , hereby it was signified , that it was gods will to make it abrahams duty to sacrifice his sonne , albeit god had determined , that when abraham came to poynt of execution of that which was enjoyned him , he would hold abrahams hand , and content himselfe with abrahams readinesse , and good heart to obey god in this . . as to the second ; it is untrue that any such thing followeth as this author pretendeth , namely , that two contrary wills shall be found in god ; for first there is no contrariety in the wills here shaped by the author himselfe ; thus , many shall be damned , and those , many may be saved . as for the word irrevocable , wherewith this author stuffes his proposition , that is no attribute of damnation , or the manner thereof , but rather of gods decrees ; wherein still he proceeds and spares not to foame out his own shame , desiring to make gods decrees of a revocable nature . secondly , he understands not the accommodation of the distinction aright , which is not directly to salvation and immediatly , but rather to praecepta , consilia , remedia , ( as aquinas expresseth it ) of voluntas signi , which is all one in this case with voluntas revelata . . applyed to gods commandement , joyned with a will not to give grace to obay his commandement , thus , it 's pharaohs duty to let israel goe ; t is not gods will that pharaoh shall let israel goe , for he meaneth to harden his heart to the contrary . . applyed to salvation , consequent or not consequent , according as men shall be found to obey or disobey gods commandement : thus , it 's my will , that as many as believe and repent shall be saved , and consequently it 's true , if thou believest ( whoever thou art ) and repentest , thou shalt be saved . i will give grace to believe and repent to some only , whereby they may be saved ; between those in like manner , there is no contrariety at all . . and if there be no contrariety at all , then surely it followes not by this authors logick , that if one of them be good , the other must be bad . i say by this authors logick ; for now adaies men are given so much to rhetorick , that they forget all good logick , if ever they learnt any : who i pray gives any such rule , that if one contrary be good , the other must be bad ? if heat be good , is cold bad ? or if white be good , is black bad ? but as for the case we treat of , if these wills were found to be contrary , one of them should destroy the other , and the other should have no being at all ; and in case it hath no being , shall it be said to be bad ? yes , like enough , by the learning of the arminians . i come to the fifth . discourse . sect . v. . peter . . not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance . this scripture is not so liable to those exceptions , which are made against the former testimonies , for it is a negative proposition , and must be taken distributively ; and therefore speaks that in plain termes , which is contrary to absolute reprobation . that which is usually replied is this , that the persons here spoken of , are the elect only . god is not willing that any of the elect should perish . but the contrary appears plainly in the text ; for the persons here spoken of , are those towards whom god exerciseth much long suffering and patience ; and who are they ? are they the elect only , or chiefly ? no , but the reprobates rather , that dye for their contempt of grace . reprobates are the proper objects of gods long suffering and patience , as we may see , rom. . . where the apostle speaking of such as goe on in sinne , and treasure up unto themselves wrath against the day of wrath , saith that god useth patience towards them , that so he might lead them to repentance : and rom. . . he endureth ( saith the text ) with much long suffering the vessells of wrath fitted to destruction . reprobates therefore as well as others doth peter here speak of , and saith , that god would have none of them to perish ; if they doe perish , it is their own fault and folly , and not gods absolute pleasure , who would have none to perish . twisse . consideration . here be odde gambolls ; as when he saith the proposition here is negative , whereas the propositions are two , and the latter affirmative , as well as the former is negative . as for the taking of it distributively , as he speaks , the text expresseth the negative distributively ; implying belike , that when we interpreted the former place de generibus singulorum , it was not to be taken distributively , which is a very shallow conceit , for it is apparent we distribute it de generibus singulorum ; and more then that , of the particulars of each kind , only we doe not distribute it of all the particulars . in like manner , though the text in this place expresseth a distribution , saying , not willing , any to perish , this distribution is not extended to all : nay , it admits of a greater limitation then the former place did by our interpretation ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here must be referred to that which goes before in these words , god is patient to us ward not willing any to perish , that is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , any of us to perish , but all to come to repentance , that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all of us ; which can admit of no other sense then all such as the apostle was ; he saith it is contrary to absolute reprobation ; that is wind ; when he proveth it then we will believe it , his word is no oracle . . let us see how he disproves their interpretation , who accommodate it to gods elect. the persons here mentioned ( he saith ) are those towards whom god exerciseth long suffering and patience , and demandeth whether these are the elect only or chiefly ? and answereth himselfe negatively ; saying , that the reprobates are the proper objects of gods long suffering and patience , which he proveth out of rom. . . and rom. . . and so concludes the argument very learnedly and judiciously arminian like , ex omnibus affirmativis , in secundâ figurâ ; which of what force it is every weak logician knoweth ; for thus in effect is his argument , they of whom god will have none to perish , are such towards whom god expresseth much long suffering and patience ; but the reprobates are they towards whom god expresseth much long suffering and patience ; therefore the reprobates are they , of whom god will have none to perish . . and whereas the apostle saith , god is patient towards us , the meaning according to this authors judicious enlargement is , towards us who are partly elect and partly reprobates : and so likewise when he saith , pet. . . to you who have obtained like precious faith with us , that is , with us of whom some are elect and some reprobates . and pet. . . god hath begotten us to a lively hope , by the resurrection of jesus christ , that is , begotten us , some of whom are elect and some reprobates . . now because the apostle saith plainly and simply , who is patient towards us ; this author desiring to frame it in a suitable manner , to that of the apostle , rom. . . whereunto he hath a hungry desire to reduce it , therefore he makes bold to say , that the persons here mentioned by saint peter are such , towards whom god exerciseth long suffering and patience : thus again he is willing very obsequiously to follow lysanders counsell , who advised , when a lyons skinne would not serve the turne , to piece it up with a foxe skinne . we on the other side , though it cannot be denied , but that god doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 towards such as saint peter was , and those to whom he wrote , who had obtained like precious faith with himselfe and his fellow apostles , and other believers ; which cannot be denied to have been the elect of god , ( so he calls them to whom he wrote , pet. . . ) yet we spare to draw any argument therehence , because we know ful well , that god doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and useth long suffering towards the reprobates also . so that we could not conclude that we would herehence , but either by a syllogisme vitious in the forme , as this author doth , or by a syllogisme , that would be as faulty in the matter , thus ; god shewes patience to none but reprobates ; they of whom god will have none to perish are such , as towards whom god shewes patience ; therefore god will not have any reprobate to perish . and is not this a proper doctrine , that god will not have any reprobate to perish , both for the overthrowing of gods omnipotency ; for is it not a cleare case and undeniable , that all reprobates doe perish ? as also for the overthrowing of gods immutability ; for can it be denied , that when god damnes them , he will have them to perish ? which if before he would not , can it be avoided , but that gods will must be changed ? and lastly , for the bringing in of manifest contrariety into the will of god ; seeing they dare not deny that god did from everlasting ordaine every reprobate unto damnation : i say they dare not deny this in plain termes , though their carriage is such , as if their meaning were , that gods will in decreeing their damnation is conditionall quoad actum volentis , as touching the very act of willing , whence it followeth that god shall not will their damnation untill their death in infidelity and impenitency ; for it is fit the condition should exist before the thing conditionated , whose existence depends thereupon . as for that he addes in the close , if they doe perish it is their own fault and folly ; we make no question hereof , though neverthelesse we may well maintain , that it is gods absolute pleasure , not to take them off from their sinfull and foolish courses , nor to set an end to these vitious courses of theirs , which he could if it pleased him , as well as he did set an end to the abominable courses of manasses , as also to the persecution and bloudy courses of saul ; towards whom he did undoubtedly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and exercise much long suffering and patience ; though herein there is no difference between them and reprobates , or very little ; according to that of austin , istorum neminem ( non praedestinatorum ) adducit deus ad salubrem spiritualemque paenitentiam , quâ homo deo reconciliatur in christo ; sive illis ampliorem paenitentiam , sive non imparem praebeat : contrà julian . pelagian . lib. . cap. . i come to the last of this ranke . discourse . sect . vi. to these testimonies , i may adde those conditionall speeches , if thou seek him he will be found of thee ; but if thou forsake him he will cast thee off , for ever , chron. . . if ye seek him , he will be found of you ; but if you forsake him , he will forsake you . chron. . . if thou doe well , shalt thou not be accepted ? but if thou dost ill , sinne lies at the doore . gen. . . the just shall live by faith , but if any man withdraw himselfe , my soule non approbabit eum , shall have no pleasure in him , he shall be a reprobate . in all these and many other places it is cleare ( for ought i can see ) that god forsakes no man , considered simply in the fall , till by actuall sinnes and continuance in them he forsakes god. now if god reject no man from salvation in time or in act and deed , till he rejects god , then surely he rejected no man in purpose and decree , but such a one as he foresaw , would reject and cast off him . for gods acts in time , are regulated by his decrees before time . ephes . . . god worketh all things ( saith the apostle ) according to the counsell of his own will ; and therefore there must be an exact conformity between them , as between regulam and regulatum , the rule and the thing measured by the rule . by whatsoever therefore god doth in the world , we may know what he purposed to doe before the world ; and by his actuall casting men off , when they grow rebellious and impenitent , and not before , we may certainly gather , that he decreed to cast them off , for their foreseen rebellion and impenitency , and not before . besides it is all one in substance , to cast a man off indeed , and to entertain a resolution to doe it ; our velle and facere are all one in gods account , and the reason is , because where there is a deliberate and setled will , the deed will follow , if nothing hinder ; much more is gods will and deed all one , seeing his will is omnipotent , and irresistible , and whatsoever he wills directly and absolutely , is certainly done when the time comes . all these plain scriptures doth this opinion contradict in terminis , and not only these , but the whole course of scriptures , by which it is much safer for a man to frame his opinions , then by a few places pickt up here and there , and those obscure ones too : what saint austin speaks in another place , i may safely say in this , numquid ideo negandum quod apertum est , quia comprehendi non potest , quod occultum est ? shall we contradict plain places , because we cannot comprehend the obscure ? aug. de bono persever . c. . secundum plura ( saith tertullian ) pauciora sunt intelligenda ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ne unus sermo subvertat alios ; secundum omnes potius quam adversum omnes intelligendus erit , a few testimonies must be expounded according to the whole course of scriptures , and not this according to a few testimonies . this is my first reason . twisse consideration . to the places of scripture here alleadged , i give the interpretation , to prevent the confusion of things that differ , which all affect who preferre the darknesse of errour before the light of truth ; for it is most advantageous to such , to fish in troubled waters . to the two first , i say ; god is first sought of us before we find him , as touching the obtaining of many blessings at the hands of god according to that , ezech. . . i will yet be sought of the house of israel , to performe it unto them . but as touching the obtaining of an heart to seek him , thus god is found of us before we seek him ; according to that , es . . . i have been found of them that sought me not : witnesse saul marching with a commission from the priests to damascus , to bind all that called on the name of jesus . to the third i answer , by distinguishing acceptation , as we distinguish love ; love is either complacentiae or beneficentiae ; so acceptation is either unto reward , or unto complacency ; rewards alwaies follow our doing well ; but grace of doing well is alwaies a fruit of gods favour towards us in christ . to the last the just shall live by faith ; but there is a grace of god preventing faith ; cur ille credat , ille non credat , what is the reason but the meere pleasure of god giving the grace of faith to one , and denying it to another , according to that of the apostle , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . they that withdraw themselves my soule shall have no pleasure in them ; the meaning is , they shall feele the smart of his displeasure ; but before they withdrew themselves god took not that pleasure in them , as to give them his custodient grace , to keep them from withdrawing themselves ; which grace , and that out of his good pleasure he afforded unto others : but this grace comes in no account throughout with this author , like unto the remonstrants , who would have no other notice taken of any other counsell of god , then that whereby he decreeth to save believers and damne unbelievers . but if you call them to enquire of gods decree , to bestow the grace of faith and repentance upon some , and not on others ; as whether it proceeds absolutely or conditionally , they usually lend a deafe eare to this ; whereby it is as cleare as the sunne , what estimation they make of the grace of regeneration , of the grace of faith , and of repentance ; and after what manner they give god the glory of it . by the way observe i pray , how he makes the state of man in being a reprobate consequent to his withdrawing himselfe , which undoubtedly is a temporall act , and accordingly the act of reprobation , whereby a man is denominated a reprobate , to be meerely temporall ; and consequently such an act must election be also , viz. not eternall but temporall . still he keepeth himselfe in his strength of confusion , as most advantageous for him ; as in saying , god forsakes no man , till by actuall sinnes and continuance in them he forsaketh god. but albeit god forsaketh no man , as touching the inflicting of punishment , untill man commits actuall sinne , and continueth therein impenitently ; yet before this god did forsake him , as touching the denyall of this grace custodient from sinne ; and the denyall of the grace of repentance to rise out of sinne , which yet he grants to many ; as in shewing mercy to whom he will , like as whom he will he hardneth , and so accordingly cures in some , that naturall infidely and hardnesse of heart wherein we are all borne , and leaves it uncured in others . now consider we his argument following , which is this . if god reject no man from salvation in time , or in act and deed till he reject god , then surely he rejected no man in purpose and decree , but such a one as he foresaw would reject and cast off god. now this argument not one of our divines deny , not only as it is applied to reprobation ; but neither doe we deny it , applied unto election . for we willingly professe , that like as god bestowes salvation on none , but such as he then findes believers , penitent , and given to good works : in like sort wee all professe , that god decrees to bestow salvation on none but such as he foreseeth will believe , repent , and become studious of good works . like enough , many doe wilfully dissemble the true state of the question between us : others ignorantly mistake it . the question is not whether god decrees to bestow salvation on such as he foreseeth will believe , and reject those from salvation whom he foreseeeth will not believe ; but of the order of reason between these decrees of god , and the foresight of obedience the one side , and disobedience on the other ; that is , whether like as faith , repentance , and good works in men of ripe years doe precede their salvation , as disposing causes thereunto ; so the fore-sight of faith , repentance , and good works , precede election , as disposing causes or prerequisites thereunto . in like manner on the other side , whether , as finall perseverance in sinne precedes damnation , as the meritorious cause thereof ; so finall perseverance in sinne as foreseen by god precedes reprobation as the decree of damnation , as the meritorious cause thereof : so that the argument here mentioned ( which is all his strength in this place ) rightly applyed must runne thus . faith , repentance , and good works actually existent precede salvation , as the disposing causes thereunto ; therefore faith , repentance , and good works foreseen precede election , as the disposing causes thereunto ; and what is this , but as good as in expresse termes to professe , that election is of faith , repentance , and good works : though it be in direct contradiction unto saint paul , professing in terminis ( to speak in this divines language ) that the purpose of god according to election is not of works . so on the other side , finall perseverance in sinne precedes damnation , as the meritorious cause thereof ; therefore finall perseverance in sinne foreseen , precedes the decree of damnation , as the meritorious cause thereof . and then what is to make reprobation to be of evill works , if this be not ? whereas saint paul , look by what arguments he proves that election is not of good works , viz. because before jacob and esau were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said of them the elder shall serve the younger : by the same argument it is equally evident that reprobation is not of evill works . yet we acknowledge an exact conformity between gods decrees and the execution thereof : because like as god damnes no man but for sinne , so he decreed to damne no man but for sinne : where sinne is in each place made the meritorious cause of damnation , not of the decree of damnation . and like as god bestowes salvation on no man of ripe years , but by way of reward of faith , repentance , and good works , so he decreed to bestow salvation on no man of ripe years , but by way of reward of faith , repentance , and good works ; where faith repentance and good works , are in each place made the disposing causes to salvation , but not to election . there was never any so madde ( saith aquinas ) as to say that merits are the cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating , and why ? but because so is the cause of predestination to be enquired into , as the cause of gods will is enquired into : but formerly he had shewed that there can be no cause of gods will , as touching the act of god willing : now let every one judge whether the act of reprobation , be not as clearly the act of gods will , as the act of predestination ; and consequently whether it be not equally as mad a course ( in aquinas his judgement ) to devise a cause of reprobation , as to devise a cause of predestination on the part of gods will. and no marvail , for the act of gods will is eternall , all the works of the creature are temporall : then , the act of gods will is god himselfe , for there is no accident in god ; and therefore they may as well set themselves to devise a cause of god , as a cause of gods will. his phrase of casting off , is ambiguous ; if it signifieth the denyall of salvation , it followeth disobedience ; if it signifieth the deniall of grace , it precedes disobedience , in what kind soever . . our velle and facere are both temporall ; in god it is otherwise ; for his deeds are temporall , and may admit the works of men precedaneous thereunto ; but his resolutions are his decrees , and they are all eternall , and can admit no work of man precedaneous thereunto ; yet is god as just in the one as in the other . for like as he damnes no man but for sinne , so he never decreed to damne any man but for sinne ; but as touching the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance , in the granting and denying of this , the apostle plainly tells us , he proceeds meerly according to the good pleasure of his will ; as when he saith , the lord hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth : and here also god is as just in his decrees as in his executions . for if it be just with him , to give this grace to whom he will , and deny it to whom he will ; it is as just with him , to decree the giving of it to whom he will , and the denying of it also to whom he will. and why shall not the lord take liberty to cure infidelity and hardnesse of heart in whom he will , as he cured it in manasses and saul ; and leave it uncured in whom he will , as he left it uncured in many a proud pharisee , and proud philosopher , notwithstanding all their morality they boasted of ? very seasonably he confesseth gods will to be omnipotent and irrefistible , when neverthelesse , he makes him to will the salvation of all reprobates , though not one of them is saved . but by that which followes , by will omnipotent and irrefistible , it seems he understandeth only will absolute , which he distinguisheth from will conditionate , which can be no other ( i suppose ) then this , my will is that all and every one shall be saved , in case he believe and repent . now seeing it is as true , that 't is gods will that they shall be damned , in case they believe not and repent not , let every sober man judge , whether this deserve to be accounted , a will of saving rather then a will of damning ; especially in case all men naturally , are farre more prone to infidelity and impenitency , then to faith and repentance . as for a will conditionate in god , like enough this author carryeth it hand over head without distinction , as he doth many other things besides : whereas no such will is agreeable to the divine nature , quoad actum volentis , as touching the act of willing , as both bradwardine by clear reason , and piscator out of the word of god have demonstrated , but only quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed by him . . i have shewed the poverty of his performances , by the particular examination of every place alleadged by him , and made it plain , how he betraies his own nakednesse of interpretation of scripture , and of argumentation throughout ; and therewithall , the vanity of this his boast , that our doctrine of absolute reprobation , doth contradict these plain scriptures . but he like a brave fellow well conceited of his atchievements , and having thereby gotten some authority to himselfe , is bold to give his word , that it contradicts also the whole course of scripture ; which i verily believe he is as well able to performe , as he hath performed the former ; and very judiciously takes upon him to distinguish between the whole course of scriptures , and a few places pickt up here and there , as if they were no part of the whole course of scripture : belike by reason of their obscurity , as he pretends , no matter if they were expunged ; like as owles are offended with day-light . our saviour tells us of some that loved darknesse rather then light , because their deeds were evill . none hate the light of gods truth , more then such as are possessed with errours , as with familiar spirits , especially when they have been found to play the apostates from gods truth . whether i have dashed my selfe upon the rocks of austins censure , by contradicting any scripture that he hath brought , or only his corrupt and vile interpretation and accommodation of them , let the indifferent judge . yet what more plain then this , gods purpose of election is not of works ; especially compared with the manner how saint paul proves it . what more plain then this ? god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . it is apparent he utterly declines the criticall point of these controversies , which is as touching gods giving grace , even the grace of faith and repentance ; and of what spirit that savoureth let every one judge . as for interpreting any place , we doe not abridge his liberty in interpreting it after what manner he thinks good , but we are ready to weigh it , and if we find it too light , to esteem of it as it deserves : neither doe we refuse to take into consideration , what he or any of his complices are pleased to insist upon . discourse . the second sort of arguments convincing drawn from gods attributes . sect . i. as touching the generall . secondly it fights with some principall attributes of god , therefore it cannot be true . for god useth not to make decrees contrary to his own glorious nature , and incompatible with those excellent attributes , by which he hath discovered part of himselfe to men . two things are here to be premised . . that gods chief attributes are those perfections , in the manifestation of which by acts conformable to them , god is most glorified , which are mercy , justice , truth , &c. for god is more honoured by the exercise of these amongst men , then by the putting forth of his unlimited power and soveraignty ; as a king is more renowned among his subjects , for his clemency , equity , candid and faire dealing , then for his dominion and authority , or any thing that is done only for the manifestation thereof . and there is good reason for it . for , . power is no vertue , but mercy , justice , and truth are ; acts of power are not morally good of themselves , but are made good or evill by their concomitants : if they be accompanied with justice , mercy , &c. they are good , if otherwise , they are naught . for justum oportet esse quod laudem meretur . . power and soveraignty may as well be shewed in barbarous and unjust actions , as in their contraries . saul shewed his authority and power to the full , in slaying the lords priests , and nebuchadnezzar in casting the three children into the fiery furnace , and daniell into the lyons denne ; but no mercy , nor justice , nor any thing else that was good . . the second thing that is to be preconsidered is , that justice , mercy , and truth in god , are the same in nature with those vertues in men , though infinitely different in degree ( as light in the aire , is the same with light in the sunne in nature , not in degrees ) and that which is just , mercifull , and upright in men , is so in god too . and by these vertues in our selves , and such acts as are conformable to them , tanquam ex pede herculem , we may safely measure the same in god : for otherwise these things would follow . . the common and received distinction of divine attributes , into communicable and incommunicable , would fall to the ground : for against it this night be said , that the mercy , justice , truth , and other vertues that are in us , are not gods perfections in a lower degree communicated to us , but things of a different nature . . men cannot be truly said , to be made after gods image , gen. . . nor when they are regenerated , to be renewed after the same image , col. . . and to be made partakers of the divine nature , pet. . . that picture cannot be the picture of such a man , which doth not in its parts and lineaments clearly resemble him ; nor can we be truly the image of god , in respect of our graces , if in these graces there be not a resemblance of gods attributes . . we may not safely imitate god , as we are commanded ; be you perfect as your heavenly father is perfect , math. . . and be ye holy as i am holy . nor when we shew forth mercy , justice , and truth in our actions , can we be properly said to imitate god , if these be one thing in god , and in men another . these two things being thus premised , viz. that gods mercy , justice , and truth , are three of his chief attributes , in the exercise of which he takes himselfe to be much glorified , and that we are to measure these attributes by the same vertues in ourselves . i come to the proofe of my second reason against absolute reprobation , which is , that it opposeth some of gods principall attributes , particularly his justice , mercy , and truth . twisse . consideration . i cannot but wonder at the performances of the true author of this discourse , in comparing that which goes before , with that which comes after ; his poverty of argumentation out of scripture , and the exuberancy of his discourse following . before he was in some straits , but now he seems to have gotten sea roome enough : yet this is my comfort , i seem to perceive out of what chimney all this smoak proceeds , and to be as well acquainted with the spirit that breatheth here , as if i were at his elbow while he penned it . agnosco veteris vestigia flammae : such like are doctor jacksons discourses ; and him i have known of old , and his ephestion also ; i professe willingly of scholar acquaintance , they were my greatest and dearest ; but seeing it hath pleased god to put such a difference between us ; i would have both them and the world know , i doe as little regard them as feare them . arminius himselfe is never more plausible , then in such like extravagant discourses as a positive theologue : but these inspirations were never derived from him ; they are flowers of another garden . these have been shapen in a more philosophicall brain whereof some having gotten the reputation , give oracles therehence , first to forme interpretations of scriptures , in congruity to these theorems , as the true author blusheth not to professe ; which when he hath perswaded the world of , i see no cause to the contrary , but he may adventure a degree farther , and perswade the burning of the bible , so farre as it concerneth the doctrine of predestination and reprobation , grace and free-will , and content themselves with these magisteriall precepts , as most sufficient and soveraigne for the endoctrinations of the christian world in these poynts . but he might have spared his pains in proving this consequence , that if our doctrine of reprobation be contradictory to gods principall attributes it cannot be true . i say he might have spared the proofe hereof , for all that he brings in proofe of this is but darknesse in comparison of the domesticall light , and selfe-evidence , which this consequence carryeth with it . his premises here , and discourse thereof is like unto the turkes parly before the encounter , when he challenged any one of scanderbegs army to a single combate . for as that parley was meerely complementall , and to no purpose , save only , as he might conceit , to abate the fervor of his opposite , who longed to be dealing with him ; so this introduction , i find to be of no scholasticall use in the world , but meerely politick , to work some impression upon the readers affections , where by it may come to passe , that when he reads of gods mercy and justice , as here it is set forth , he may be the more enclined to judge thereof , according to the genius of human mercy and justice . yet i am content to give my selfe to be wrought upon by these pretty contemplations , as farre as i shall be convicted of any truth and sobriety in them : though i willingly professe i am very suspicious ( for i love to betray my infirmities ) that there is little or no truth and sobriety at all in them . . now because he hopes to hatch much advantage unto his cause out of these attributes , and to that purpose he sitts very long upon them , though his market may be never the better for all that . he tells us these are gods chief attributes , and as it appeareth by that which followeth , his practice is to disparage his power ( which i call the lords soveraignty ) in comparison to these ; now it seems they are chiefe indeed in his opinion , for the furthering of his cause ; but as for any absolute chiefty they have in god , i am not as yet acquainted therewith , what i may be by this authors performances i know not ; yet in the next page save one , he professeth expressely , that all gods excellencies are infinitely good , and one is not greater then another ; wherein i doe much approve his judgement , as savouring of more depth then this , which yet i think not that he , who pretends to be the author of this discourse , in respect of his minority , should be likely to broach ; as for other respects of principality , i shall be ready to take notice of them in due place . but when he saith , god is most glorified in the manifestation of mercy , justice , and truth , it is a very odde phrase : for it is one thing to be glorious , another thing to be glorified ; dare he deny that god is as glorious in his power and soveraignty , as in his mercy , justice , and truth ? as for the glorifying of him , that depends upon the will of the creature . it may be some are more thankfull unto god , for blessing them with health , and riches , and honour , and preferment ; then for bestowing his gospell upon them ; but will it follow herehence , that his goodnesse in giving riches , &c. is more glorious then his goodnesse is seen in giving us his word and gospell ? we read that when god laid the foundations of the earth , the starres of the morning praised god together , and all the children of god rejoyced , job . . . did these angells glorify god for his mercy , justice , and truth , in the creating of them ? we read sometimes of gods power , sometimes of his wisdome manifested in the creation , as jer. . . and . . and psal : . . jer. . . &c. but no where have i read ( that i can remember ) he made the world by his mercy , justice , or truth ; and revel . . . i find the glory of power given unto god in the creation , by the elders , but neither there , nor any where else ( that i know ) is the glory of his mercy , justice , and truth , given unto god therein . thou art worthy o lord , to receive glory , and honour , and power ; for thou hast created all things , and for thy will sake , they have bee and are created . and albeit men faile in giving god the glory of his power and wisdome as they should , will it follow herehence , that god is not so much to be glorified for his power and wisdome , as for mercy , justice , and truth ? yet who falles in this , that failes not in the use of the lords prayer ; the conclusion whereof is this , for thine is the kingdome , and power , and glory ? and indeed albeit power and wisdome may be shewed other waies , then in the way of mercy , justice , and truth ; yet gods mercy , justice , and truth , cannot be shewed without the simultaneous demonstration of his power and wisdome : and therefore when god comes to make good his gracious promise , for the delivering of israel out of egypt : which cannot be denied to have been a singular work of mercy , justice , and truth ; the lord professeth that then he would make himselfe known unto them by the name , jehovah , by which name he was not known before . the incarnation of the sonne of god , was it not an admirable work , as well in the way of power , and wisdome , as in the way of mercy , justice , and truth ? i am apt to confound gods justice with his truth , ere i am aware , without having that awfull regard to the authority of this writer , as perhaps may seem fit : but i hope it is a pardonable fault , considering my education hitherto in divinity ; whereby i have attained only thus farre , to the acknowledgement of justice divine ; for justice consisteth , in giving every one his due ; now this due being either in respect of god , or the creature : justice divine in giving god his due , aquinas hath taught me , that it is all one with gods wisdome , promoting his ends by congruous means ; justice divine in giving the creature his due , i have learnt to depend wholy on gods determination , manifested by his promises and threatnings , and this is commonly called justitia fidelitatis , which i take to be all one with truth . but i am very willing to be better informed by this author , and i give my selfe to his contemplations , to have my thoughts fashioned by them as they can ; and if hitherto they have not transformed me into a new creed , i cannot help that . now if it be so that gods power and wisdome accompany the demonstration of his mercy , justice , and truth , i cannot see how god is honoured more by the exercise of the one sort , then of the other , but rather on the contrary . so that albeit a king is more renowned among his subjects , for his clemency , equity , candid and faire dealing , then for his dominion and authority ; yet i doe not easily perceive , how god is renowned more for his clemency , equity , &c. then for his power , &c. yet again this seems to me a very poore argument ; to conclude clemency to be a chiefe attribute of god , because men doe more magnify him for that , then for his power . for consider , a malefactor going to execution , is called back and saved by the kings pardon , this man ( be sure ) will magnify the king more for his clemency in saving him , then he would for his justice in putting him to death : but will it follow herehence , that clemency is a more chiefe attribute of a king then justice ? solomon the greatest of kings hath said , the throne is established by justice : and it was wont to be said , fiat justitia , ruat orbis . no such thing is said of mercy . then again the king could not doe this but by vertue of his prerogative , yet the malefactor magnifies him not for his prerogative , but for the favourable use of it for his good , for that is all he respects : yet aske i pray any man of judgement , which is the chiefer attribute of a king , and more glorious of the two ; his prerogative or his clemency ? clemency is a very vulgar vertue , but the royall prerogative is peculiar to one ; a thiefe after a robbery committed on the high-way , meeting with a begger that beggeth a penny , if he astonish him with the gift of twelve pence , the begger is very likely more highly to magnify him , then any honest man going on the way , that bestowes but an halfe penny upon him ; yet , whose liberality is the greater of the two ? carnall men renowne others for the benefit they receive by them ; not according to their true worth : yet there is a farther difference ; humane authority may be abused , and soveraignty on earth is not alwaies joyned with good morality , much lesse with piety ; but in case a man could not sinne , the more honour and authority is laid upon him , the more glorious should he be ; as being backt with the greater power to execute his goodnesse . thus it is with god , it is impossible he should abuse his soveraignty ; yea his mercy and justice are one and the same reality with his power : what a vanity then is it to discourse as this author doth , in preferring one attribute of god before another , as if god were more glorious in the one then in the other . but he hath farther reasons for this , let us consider them : . power ( saith he ) is no vertue , nor morally good , but mercy justice and truth are . i answer : though it be so , yet who will say , the glory of vertue is greater then the glory of power ? . especially considering , that vertue is common to the meanest . . a little vertue joyned with power , shall bring forth farre better fruits , then a great deale of vertue without power . . though it be so in man , whose power may be abused , shall we transferre it to god , whose power cannot be abused , his power and his goodnesse being all one ? . morall vertues denote a goodnesse removeable where it is , obtainable where it is not ; but no such goodnesse can be found in god , and consequently no morall vertue in proper speech , whatsoever is in him , that being naturall and essentiall unto him . . lastly , to power only and soveraignty we owe obedience , and not to goodnesse , and jurisdiction is farre more glorious then subjection . yet by the way it is untrue ( in my judgement ) that acts of power are made good by being accompanied with justice , speaking of morall goodnesse ; as acts of vertue alone they are morally good , not as acts of power . if justum oportet esse quod laudem meretur ; then justice if not alone , yet chiefly , shall be that whereby one is renowned : yet herehence it followes , that every act of gods power shall laudem mereri ; because it is impossible that any thing he doth should be otherwise then just , such a justitia condecentiae followeth all his actions ; otherwise we must grant , that god hath power to doe that which is unjust . . and accordingly , though power humane and angelicall , may be shewed in barbarous actions : yet power divine cannot ; let him doe whatsoever he is able , it shall not be unjust ; let god turne all the world into nothing , another manner of destruction then that of sauls slaying the lords priests , or netuchadnezzars casting the three children into the fiery furnace , yet dares this author say , that god herein should be unjust . i come to the second of his premises . . we have had a tast of this authors faculty in roaving at large , and within the horizon of his own braine , we shall drink a deeper draught of it ere we part . and once again i willingly professe , it cannot enter into my beliefe , that these conceits have dropt from the fancy of a young divine ; some old beaten naturalist rather doth imploy his braine to doe the arminians this service . i never found hitherto that arminius , or any of his batavian followers have thus discoursed , that justice , mercy , and truth in god , are the same in nature , with those vertues in men , though infinitely differing in degree . i conceive arminius ( though wild enough in his reasons , and especially in his reasons drawn from the consideration of gods justice ) to be more orthodoxe , and farre more scholasticall then so ; though i nothing doubt , we have a generation amongst us that affect to have all learning in divinity , to goe by their rules of philosophy , and yet the basest philosophy i think that ever was devised . and this author whosoever he be , seems herein to discourse after such a manner , as if he were of the number of those that heard the devill read lectures through a grate in the university of toledo . if justice mercy and truth in god , are the same in nature , with those vertues that are in men , then there is something in man , that is the very essence of god ; for undoubtedly whatsoever is in god , is of his essence ; yet those are they that attribute manicheisme unto us . and seeing the vertues of man are accidents , it followes that that , which under the same name is attributed to god , is either an accident in god ; or if it be his essence , then the essence of god , is of the same nature with accidents in man. thirdly ; hence it followes , that the divine perfections consist of degrees , and consequently must needs be accidentall unto him , not substantiall ; for substance admits no degrees . fourthly ; if justice humane be of the same nature with justice divine , it followeth , not only that , that which is just in man is just with god , but that it must be after the same manner just ; that like as mens justice consisteth in obedience to gods law , implying subjection thereunto : so justice divine must consist in obedience to gods law implying subjection . and like as man is obliged to be just , in the same manner god is obliged to be just . and consequently like as soul sinned and became unjust in slaying the lords priests , so had god been unjust in doing the like . fiftly ; man sinneth in suffering his brother to sinne , when it lies in his power to keepe him from sinne ; and consequently , if that which is unjust with man is unjust with god , god sinneth as often as he suffereth any sinne to be committed in the world , for undoubtedly he could prevent it . august . contra julian . pelag. lib. . cap. . nos certe , si eos , in quos nobis potestas est ante oculos nostros , perpetrare scelera permittamus , rei cum ipsis erimus : quam vero innumerabilia illa permitit fieri ante oculos suos ; quae utique si voluisset , nullâ ratione permitteret , but let us see how he proves this , for he adventures upon it like a tall fellow , and that with variety of demonstration . . the first is drawn from the received distinction of divine attributes , namely into such as are communicable unto the creature , and such as are incommunicable ; but here he conceales his authority . but let him bring forth the testimony of any divine , that maintains any attribute divine to be the same quoad nomen & nominis rationem , with any attribute humane . yet we may talke of gods attributes so , as for distinction sake to say , some are such as are also attributed to man , others are not ; without maintaining , that humane vertues are of the same nature with attribute divine . life is a divine attribute , it is also attributed to man , to a beast , to a plant ; but will any wise man say that the life of god is of the same nature with the life of a man , of a beast , of a plant ? what more equivocall then the word canis ? attributed to a starre , to a fish , to a foure-footed creature on the earth ; i answer much more equivocall is every thing in common attributed to god and man ; for whatsoever is in god , is his essence , but between the essence of god , and the essence of man , there is a vaster difference , then between the essence of a starre , of a fish , of a dogge ; how much more difference is there between the essence of god , and an accident in man , such as his vertues are . in a word , the vertue of man is of an annihilable condition , and if it be of the same nature with something in the nature of god , why should not something in the nature of god be of an annihilable condition ? i marvaile not if men of this generation are apt to professe that they will turne atheists rather then concurre in some poynts with the contra-remonstrants ; for their discourses breath atheisme in a very high degree . it is a question among schoolemen , whether ens ( the most abstract notion of all other ) be predicated univocally of god and the creature ; the dominicans utterly deny it ; scotus maintains the contrary with some curiosity of argumentation : but his arguments are answered by the dominicans and particularly by versor on the metaphysicks ; but never , i think , was it heard of scotus or any other ( till now ) that the vertues of man are of the same nature with the divine attributes , differing only in degree . i come to his second argument . . it was wont to be accounted that man was the image of god , not in respect of the qualities of his mind and will only , but even in respect of his essence also ; and some have been anciently condemned for denying this : why then doe we not say that the essence of man is of the same nature with the essence of god differing only in degree . in the next place the power of understanding and liberty of will in man a bodily creature , brings him nearest to god , of all bodily creatures : it was wont to be said that all other creatures had vestigia dei , but man was imago dei ; as in whom is represented the divine nature as intelligent and free ; so farre forth , as a compound creature of body and soule can represent him ; but who hath ever said that the understanding of god was of the same nature with the understanding of man : and the will of god of the same nature with the will of man ? it is well known that the understanding , and will humane , are but naturall faculties in man ; but the understanding and will divine , is the very essence of god ; and if mans essence be not of the same nature with his faculties , doth it become us to professe that the essence of god is of the same nature with the naturall faculties of man ? as for the graces of gods spirit , what are these but the three theologicall vertues ; all other are but morall vertues sanctified by these ; now shew me what faith there is in god of the same nature with our faith differing only in degree ? what hope there is in god of the same nature with our hope , differing only in degree , what charity there is in god of the same nature with our charity , differing only in degree . these indeed being of all other the most peculiar fruits of regeneration , whereby we are renewed after the image of god , as touching the adventitious qualification of our natures , should have attributes divine answerable unto them ( if any ) of the same nature with them , differing only in degree . yet herein ( as i conceive ) consists not so much our participation of the divine nature , as in that , the spirit of god the father , and god the sonne is communicated unto us , given unto us to be the immediate fountain of all actions and motions spirituall in us . . and albeit these attributes , which in common doe denominate god and man , are one thing in god , and in man another : yet this nothing derogates from our imitation of god ; and striving to be perfect and holy in our kind as creatures ; like as god is perfect and holy in his kind as creator . and that i may represent some authority for my discourse , whereas this author represents none for his , it is a poynt generally received in the schooles , that in this weaknesse of our understanding , we come to know what god is by negation rather then by affirmation . capreolus upon the first of the sentences dist . . quest . . rehearseth diverse passages out of aquinas to this purpose , as out of . contra gentes cap. . in consideratione divinae substantiae praecipue utendum est via remotionis . nam divina substantia omnem formam quam intellectus noster attingit , suâ excedit immensitate . et sic ipsam apprehendere non pessumus , cognoscendo quid est , sed aliqualiter ejus notitiam habemus , cognoscendo quid non est ; tantóque ejus notitiae magis appropinquamus , quanto plura per intellectum nostrum poterimus ab eo removere . tanto enim unumquodque perfectiùs cognoscitur , quanto differentias ejus ab alio pleniùs intuemur . quià in consideratione divinae substantiae non possumus accipere quid , quasi genus , nec distinctionem ab aliis rebus per differentias affirmativas accipere possumus ; eam oportet accipere per differentias negativas . id. . contra gentes cap. . per effectus dei pertingere possumus ut cognoscamus de deo , quia est , & quod causa aliorum est , aliis supereminens & ab omnibus remotus : & hoc est ultimum & perfectissimum nostrae cognitionis in hac vitâ , ut dionysius dixit . lib. de mysticâ theologiâ . cum deo quasi ignoto conjungimur , quod quidem contingit , cùm de deo , quid non sit , cognoscimus , quid vero sit penitùs manet ignotum : unde & ad hujusmodi sublimissimae cognitionis ignorantiam demonstrandam , dicitur de mose exod , . quod accessit ad caliginem in qua deus er at . in the consideration of the divine essence , we must chiefly use the way of negation : for the divine essence , through its immensity , doth exceed every forme that our understanding can conceive : so that we cannot apprehend it by knowing what it is ; but after a sort we have the knowledge thereof , by knowing what it is not . and so much nearer doe we approach to the knowledge thereof , the more we are able to remove from the nature of god. for every thing is known so much the more perfectly by how much the more at full we doe behold how it differeth from other things . now in the consideration of the divine essence , we cannot take any thing as the genus thereof ; neither can we apprehend its distinction from other things , by differences affirmative ; and therefore we must apprehend it by differences negative . the same thomas in his third book contra gent. cap. . by the effects of god ( saith he ) we may attain to know that god is , and that he is the cause of other things eminent above them , and removed from them all : and this is the last and most perfect degree of our knowledge in this life , as saith dionysius in his book of mysticall divinity : we are conjoyned with god as unknown which verily comes to passe , when we know of god what he is not , but what he is it remains utterly unknown unto us ; and therefore to demonstrate our ignorance of this most sublime knowledge , it is said of moses exod. . that he came unto the darknesse where god was . the same capreolus proceeds to shew out of aquinas in sent. dist . . q. . art . . ad . how we must make progresse in our knowledge of god , by way of remotion or negation . quando , inquit , in divinis procedimus per viam remotionis , primò negamus corporalia , & secundò intellectualia , secundum quod inveniuntur in creaturis , ut bonitas & sapientia , & tunc remanet in intellectu quod est , & nihil amplius , unde est , sicut in quadam confusione . when ( saith he ) we proceed by way of remotion , or negation , in searching out the divine nature , first we deny of him all corporall things , and secondly we deny of him all intellectuall things , after such a sort as they are found in the creatures , as godnesse and wisdome , ( mark this well for these and such like are the vertues which this author saith are of the same nature in god and man differing only in degree ) and then there remains in the understanding , id quod est ( as much as to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ens ) and nothing more ; and hence the understanding remains as in a certain confusion . and indeed the notion of entity is most generall , most abstract , and if any notion signifies one and the same nature , such as may be affirmed of god and the creature , surely this is it . now observe aquinas his judgement concerning this , out of the same capreolus in these words . ad ultimum autem , essentiam ipsam , secundum quod est in creatur is , ab ipso removemus , & tunc remanet ( intellectus noster ) in quadam tenegrâ ignorantiae ; secundum quam ignorantiam , quantum ad statum viae pertinet , optime deo conjungimur , ut dionysius dicit , & haec est caligo in qua deus habitare dicitur . to the last ( i answer ) the very entity or existence in the creatures we remove from god , and then our understanding remains in the darknesse of ignorance ; according to which ignorance , so farre forth as it pertains to our condition ( as viatores ) and in the way , we are conjoyned with god in the best manner ; as denis saith : and this is the darknes , wherein god is said to dwell . by this let any man judge , whether this authors discourse be not as opposite to the discourse of aquinas , as touching the nature of god in resemblance to ours , as the antipodes are to us . and withall i doe not find throughout his discourse following , that he makes any use of these premises . and indeed there is no need of them at all : for if he cannot prove this doctrine of ours repugnant either to gods mercy , or to his truth , or to his justice , these premises will stand him in no stead : and if he can prove it to be repugnant to those attributes of his , his argument shall stand in the same force , as well without these premises as with them . now , how well he makes good the repugnancy of our doctrine to gods mercy , we are in the next place to consider . discourse . sect . ii. as touching the first speciall . gods mercy . . it opposeth gods mercy . god is mercifull . it is a great part of his title . exod. . . mercifull and gracious . he is mercy in the abstract : john . . god is love . a father of mercies , and god of all consolations . cor. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a saviour of men . tim. . . two waies is the mercy of god spoken of in scripture , . absolutely , . comparatively . . absolutely ; and so it is set out in lofty and stately termes ; it s called rich mercy . ephes . . . great kindnesse . john . . abundant mercy . pet. . . love without height or depth , bredth or length , or any dimensions : love passing knowledge . ephes . . , . . comparatively . it is compared with his own justice , and with the love that dwells in the creatures , and is advanced above both . . it is sometimes compared with his justice , and advanced above that , not in respect of its essence ; for all gods excellencies are infinitely good , and one is not greater then another ; but in other things that concerne the expressions of it , particularly in these , . in the naturalnesse and dearnesse of it unto god. it is said of mercy , mich. . . it pleaseth him , or he delights in mercy , but justice and judgement is called his strange work , alienum a naturâ suâ . isai . . . he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men . lam. . . . in the frequent exercise of it selfe , exod. . . he is slow to anger but abundant in goodnesse . mercies are bestowed every day , judgements inflicted but now and then , sparingly , and after a long time of forbearance , when there is no remedy . chron. . . all the day long have i stretched out my hands to a gainsaying and rebellious people . isai . . . that is , i have been patient a long time , and in that long day i have not been idle , but employed in exhortations , promises , and many mercies , whereby i might doe you good . god waits long for mens conversion , as the marriner for the turning of the wind . . in its amplitude or objects to whom it is extended . exod . . visiting the iniquities of fathers upon their children to the third and fourth generation , but shewing mercy to thousands : implying that his mercy is more largely extended then his justice and that look how much three or foure come short of a thousand , so much doth his justice come short of his mercy in exercise of it . . in the occasions that move god to exercise them : it is a great matter that moves god to punish , as we may see , gen. . , , , , . when the wickednesse of man was great upon the earth , and all flesh had corrupted his way then god thinks of punishment . he would not destroy the amorites , till their wickednesse was full , gen. . . quoties volui ( saith christ to jerusalem ) math. . . how often would i have gathered you , that is , i have not taken advantages against you : nor upon the first , second , or third unkindnesse cast you off , small matters have not moved me to destroy thee o jerusalem . but how small an occasion doth god take to spare man ? when god had examined sodome , and found their sinnes to be answerable to their crye , yet then for tenne righteous mens sakes would he have spared sodome . gen . . nay , he would have spared jerusalem , if the prophet by searching , could have found one man that did execute judgement , and seek the truth jer. . . what a small and slender humiliation made him to spare wicked ahab and his house a long time . king. . . and the repentance of neneve , whose wickednesse cryed to the lord for vengeance ; jonas ● . . did easily procure her a pardon . thus is gods mercy advanced above his justice . . it is also compared with the affection of a father to his sonne , of a tender mother to her child , and of the most affectionate brute creatures to their young ones , and set above them all . it goes beyond a fathers affection to his sonne . matth. . . if you that are evill , can give good gifts to your children , how much more will your heavenly father give good things to them that aske him ? what doth this [ quando magis ] imply ? but that gods love outstrips a fathers ? and so it doth a mothers too , isai . . . can a woman forget her sucking child , that she should not have compassion on the sonne of her wombe ? yea she may forget , yet will i not forget thee . women are compassionate towards their children , because they are the fruit of their wombes , and are a part of themselves : but most indulgent are they toward those children to whom they are nurses , as well as mothers , to their sucking children : and yet women may forget their children , their sucking children : but as for god , he can never forget his children . and as if those comparisons were too small to expresse gods affection to his creatures , he proceeds farther , and compares himselfe , with one of the most affectionate females among unreasonable creatures , the [ hen ] math. . . o jerusalem jervsalem , how oft would i have gathered thee , as a hen gathereth her chicken under her wings ? no bird ( saith august . ) expresseth such tender love to her young ones , as the hen doth . videmus nidificare passeres quoslibet , ante oculos nostros , herundines , circonias , columbas quotidie videmus nidificare , quos nisi quando in nidis videmus , parentes esse non agnoscimus . gallina vero sic infirmatur in pullis suis , ut etiamsi ipsi pulli non sequantur , filios non videas , matrem tamen intelliges : ita fit alis demissis , plumis hispida , voce rauca , omnibus membris demissa & abjecta , ut ( quemadmo dum dixi ) et si filios non videas matrem tamen intelligas . no fowles discover themselves to be mothers , so much as hennes doe : others when we see them in their nest with their young , we know them to be mothers , but no way else : but the hen discovers her selfe to be so , even then when her chickens doe not follow her , her feathers stand up , her wings hang downe , she clocks mournfully , and goes feebly ; so that we may know her to be a mother , when yet we cannot see her brood . he hath also such another speech in another place , and concludes it with these words , quare ergo dominus , nisi propter hoc , gallina esse voluit , in sanctâ scripturâ dicens . o jerusalem , jerusalem , quoties volui te congregare ut gallina , &c. our lord and saviour did therefore compare himselfe to a hen , rather then any other creature , because of her singular expressions of love to her young ones , even when they are out of her sight . by these things we see how highly the scriptures speak of gods mercy , especially in the expressions of it to mankind ; to which testimonies let me adde these few more , psal . . . lord what is man that thou art mindfull of him , &c. prov. . . in the children of men did the wisdome of god delight himselfe , when the foundations of the earth were appoynted . he took not the nature of angells but the seed of abraham . heb. . . when the bountifulnesse and love of god our saviour toward man appeared . tit. . . ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the originall word is : where doe we read of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . more mercifull is god to man , then to all other creatures . with such a mercy cannot stand such a decree ; absolute reprobation being once granted , we may ( me thinks ) more properly call god a father of cruelties , then of mercies , and [ hatred then of love : ] and the devills names , [ satan and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] an adversary , a destroyer may be fitter for him then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a saviour ; which i tremble to think . doth mercy please him , when he of his own will only hath made such a decree , as shewes farre more severity towards poore men , then mercy ? is he slow to anger , when he hath taken such a small and speedy occasion to punish the greater part of men in hell torments for ever , and for one sinne once committed , hath shut up the greater part of men under invincible unbelief and damnation ? is his mercy abundant , doth it extend it selfe farther then justice , when it is tackt up so short , limited to a few chosen ones , when for one at least , ( take in all parts of the world ) are unavoidably cast away , out of his only will and pleasure ? or doth his love passe knowledge , when we see daily greater love then this in men and other creatures ? what father and mother ( that have not only cast off fatherhood and motherhood , but humanity too ) ( so the authors copy hath it ) would determine their children to certain death , or to cruell torments worse then death , for one only offence , and that committed too , not by them in their own persons , but by some other , and only imputed unto them ? how much lesse would they give themselves to beget children , and bring them forth , that they might bring them to the rack , fire , gallowes , and such like tortures and deaths ? but to deliver things a little more closely . foure things ( in my conceit ) being well and distinctly considered , doe make it apparent , that this decree is incompatible with gods mercy . . that adams sinne was the sinne of mans nature only , and no mans personall transgression but adams ; it was neither committed , nor consented to by any of his posterity in their own persons . . that it was the sinne of our nature , not by generation , for then the sinnes of our grand-fathers and fathers , would be our sinnes also , because we come from them : and they would be our sinnes so much the more , by how much nearer we are to the stock , from which we doe immediatly spring , then to the first root and common father of mankind . it is the sinne of our nature by imputation only , it was gods will that he should stand up for a publique person , and that in him all men should stand or fall . this is generally granted by divines , and particularly by that excellent servant of god m. calvin . neque enim factum est ( saith he ) ut a salute exciderant ommes unius parentis culpâ . and a little after ( he saith ) hoc cum naturae nequeat ascribi , ab admirabili dei consilio profectum esse minimè obscurum est . and a little after , thus : unde factum est , ut tot gentes uuà cum earum liberis , infantibus , aeterna morte involveret lapsus adae absque remedio , nisi quia deo it à visum est . . that god did pardon it in adam , who did actually and voluntarily commit it in his own person . . that christ came into the world to take away peccatum mundi , the sinne of the world. ioh. . . that god either did or might have satisfied his wronged justice in the blood of the covenant for all man kind , and without any impeachment to justice , might have opened a way of salvation to all and every man. these things being well considered , will make no man ( i think ) to conclude in his thoughts , that if there be any such decree , god is not mercifull to man at all : much lesse is he more mercifull ( supposing this decree ) to men , then he is to other creatures , but more sharpe and severe then he is to other creatures , to the devills themselves . . to other creatures , because the most of men are determined by his omnipotent decree , to such a being , as is a thousand times worse then no being at all ; whereas other creatures , even the basest of them , though they perhaps have but a contemptible being , yet they have such a beeing as is much better then no being at all : it is farre better not to be at all , then to be eternally miserable without any possibility of the contrary : for so saith our saviour speaking of judas : it had been good for that man if he never had been borne . men would not have accepted of life and being , when first they entred upon possession of it , if they had known upon what hard conditions it was to be tendred , and that it was to be charged with such an interest , as can no waies be recompensed by the benefits of life ; or ( did men firmely believe this decree ) they would at adventure , with job , curse their birth-day , be willingly released from the right of creatures , and desire that their immortall soules might vanish into nothing . what minutius saith of pagans , might be truly affirmed of men in generall ; malunt extingui penitus , quam ad supplicia reparari . nay parents out of pitty to their children , would wish that they might be borne snakes and toads , rather then men ; and creatures , whose being shall at last be resolved into nothing , rather then immortall spirits . . then to the very devills also , who are set forth in scripture , to be the greatest spectacles of gods wrath , and irefull severity . in one thing this decree makes most men and devills equall , utrisque desperata salus , they are both sure to be damned ; but in three things men are in a farre worse condition by it . . in their appoyntment to hell , not for their own proper personall sinnes , for which the devills suffer , but for the sinnes of another man , made theirs only by gods order and pleasure . . in their inevitable destination to destruction , under a shew of the contrary . the devills , as they are decreed to damnation , so they know it , they expect it , they look for no other : but men , even those that are appoynted unto wrath , are yet fed up with hopes of salvation , and made to believe that the whole businesse is put into their hands ; so as that if they doe perish , it is not [ defectu misericordiae ] because god hath no mercy on them , but [ defeclu voluntatis propriae , ] because they will not be saved , when yet there is no such mercy . now if it be worse to be deluded in misery , then simply to be miserable , then the condition of men in this respect , is made by this decree to be worse then the state of devills . . in their obligation to believe , and the aggravation of their punishment by not believing . the devills , because they must be damned , are not commanded to believe in christ , nor is their punishment encreased by not believing : but poore men , who ( by this decree ) can scape hell no more then the devills , must yet be tied to believe in christ , and must have their torments encreased if they believe not . these things being so ( i think ) i may conclude that this decree of absolute reprobation overthrowes the mercy of god in generall , and toward mankind . nor doth that quiet my mind , which is usually answered to these objections ; viz. that god by this decree , doth fully manifest his justice and his mercy too ; his justice towards the reprobates , and his mercy toward the chosen vessells : and that it is necessary that his decrees shall be so ordered , as that both these may be clearly manifested by them . this ( i say ) doth not satisfy ; for , . gods mercy is revealed to be rich mercy , abundant , long suffering , beyond apprehension , and surmounting his justice , in its objects and expressions . now such a mercy as this , set forth with such glorious titles , cloathed with such lovely properties , and exceeding the ability of any mans conception , such a mercy ( i say ) is not manifested by this decree . . neither is the pure and spotlesse justice of god set forth by this absolute decree , as i now come to shew . this being my second argument , drawn from the attributes of god , against absolute reprobation . twisse . consideration . here we have a great deale of noyse , and the most wastfull discourse that ever i yet met withall , in the enlarging of a most hungry argument ; the answer whereunto himselfe perceives , and sets down ( as he thinks good ) in a few words , after three large leaves spent in the enlarging of his opposition ; namely to this effect ; that whatsoever he can say , in the advancing of gods mercy we willingly acknowledge : but withall we say , this mercy of god which makes god so glorious , is peculiarly manifested towards the vessells of mercy , whom god hath prepared unto glory , in distinction from the vessells of wrath , as we read rom. . . and that in a higher degree then he hath mentioned ; this being one speciall end , why god suffereth with long patience , the vessells of wrath prepared to destruction , rom. . . namely , that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessells of mercy , which he hath prepared unto glory , v. . and after so much froth of words spent to no purpose unlesse to beguile his reader , and dull him with verbosity , that he might not attend , and observe how accurately he performes in the issue , that which he intends . consider ( i beseech you ) what a meager and starveling reply he puts to this . gods mercy ( saith he ) is revealed to be rich mercy , abundant , long suffering , beyond apppehension ; we grant all this , and adde that it is glorious also ; and makes the partakers of it to rejoyce , with joy unspeakable and glorious ; but this belongs only to them that believe , and to certain who are called vessells of mercy , in distinction from vessells of wrath , rom. . , . which vessells of mercy , in distinction from vessells of wrath , must needs be the elect only , in distinction from reprobates : with what face can he deny , that such a mercy is manifested on the elect by our doctrine ? . i farther adde that such a mercy is not manifested by his doctrine as by ours , for the glory of gods mercy consists in this , that it is of free grace pardoning our sinnes , regenerating us , changing our hearts , giving faith and repentance to some , when he denies it to others ; all this i say is of meere grace , by our doctrine without respect to any preparation or qualification in man ; according to that of the apostle , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth : this is not their doctrine , if it were , i see no cause of any materiall difference between us . . and i find it strange , that men should grow to such a degree of immodesty , as to affect singularity , and to shew a dexterity , in such sort to advance gods mercy , as to obscure and deface his grace , as this author doth ; for all along you shall not find him to magnify gods free grace : whereas mercy shewed to one rather then to another , in respect of his being better disposed for the receiving of it more then another , is rather of the nature of justice , then of mercy distinct from justice . . and to this purpose he takes no pains to set down , wherein this mercy consists , which he so much amplifies , but carryeth it throughout in hugger mugger , and in the clouds of generality , that it might appeare the more likely , to be indifferently extended to all ; and albeit sometimes he expresseth it , to be the love of a father towards his children , yet it is too too probable , that he extends this to all and every one , as the children of god by creation ; and therefore particulates not wherein it consists , as namely whether in mercy temporall or spirituall ; and as touching mercy spirituall , whether this be not the pardoning of mens sinnes , together with the illumination of the mind , sanctification of the will , change of the heart , and giving of faith , repentance , obedience , and finall perseverance therein . for had he particulated those , he had apparently marred his own market , and been driven to loose that in retaile , which he hoped to gaine in grosse ; for these mercies are not extended to all . but their meaning is , god offers these to all , and that any faile of them , it is because man disposeth not himselfe for the receiving of them . this is the issue of his advancing gods mercy , utterly to disparage the freedome of gods grace . now of the divine mercy in this sense , to wit , as freely extended to all , he hath not one word throughout , as i can remember , in so vast premises ; all that he speaks of the extention of gods mercy to variety of objects , is dispatched in three lines of these his three large leaves ; as where he saith , his mercy is more largely extended then his justice , and that look how much three or foure come short of a thousand , so much doth his justice come short of his mercy in the exercise of it ; and upon this poore interpretation , he grounds the only substantiall part of his reply , to our answer to this his argument . for to say that gods mercy is rich , abundant , long suffering , beyond apprehension , is nothing to the purpose . for all this hinders not , but that the application of it may be , and is , made only to certain vessells , who are called vessells of mercy , in distinction from vessells of wrath , rom. . . . therefore he addes , that it surmounts his justice in its objects and expressions : wherein what he means by its expressions , i know not . for i find no comparison made by him between gods mercy and his justice in its expressions ; but only in respect of the objects , and there the expression of justice , seems more quick then the expression of mercy : and as for the extention of mercy , to more then justice is extended to , he dispatcheth in three lines , as i said , of these three leaves of his discourse . but let us see what force he finds in that comparison to serve his turne . first he saieth the comparison is between three and foure on the one side , and a thousand on the other , as if the odds were a thousand to three or foure : but how doth he prove that ? the text compares three or foure generations to thousands ; not to a thousand generations , but to thousands : and he boldly conceives it to be understood of thousands of generations ; though it be much more then the world consists of , from the beginning of the world to the end of it : for suppose the world shall last seaven or eight thousand years ; how many years will he allow to a generation ? suppose he allow but twenty , to explode the custome of the germans of whom tacitus writes , that sera virginum venus , which to this day is continued : yet a thousand of such generations must make the world to consist of twenty thousand years : but if it consist but of seaven or eight thousand years , you must allow but seaven or eight years to a generation , to make up one thousand generations . then againe the world was now two thousand years old when this was delivered , so that it had not above six thousand years to continue , and accordingly but six years was from thenceforth to be allowed to a generation ; and all this liberality of allowance , is no more then will make the child a coat , to compleat one thousand generations ; whereas the text speaks of thousands in the plural number , and the least of plurality is two thousand ; so that to help this , we must allow but three years to a generation , by which account they had need be married at two , and have a child at three , and who then should rock the cradle ? but leave we these fooleries , and content our selves with the plain text , and not piece it out with our brainsick additions . we know that for abrahams sake who feared him , and for the covenants sake he made with him , he had mercy on thousands of his posterity , to bring them out of egypt , six hundred thousand men from twenty years old to threescore , and take them unto him to be his peculiar people , which continued for the space of about years ; and now for years they have been cast off from being his people . and of the goodnesse of god towards abraham , in choosing his seed after him , even many thousands of them , the jewes had sensible experience that very day he spake unto them from mount sinai ; he did not mean to trouble their braines with any algebra in counting up a thousand generations . but suppose this were granted him ; yet these that feare him , being only within the pale of his church , what a small handfull were these , in comparison to all the world of heathens besides , that hated him ? marke what difference s. paul puts between the jewes and the gentiles , when he saith , we jewes by nature , not sinners of the gentiles . gal. . and the psalmist before him psal . . he sheweth his word unto jacob , his statutes and ordinances to israel , he hath not dealt so with every nation , neither have they known his judgements . according whereunto the apostle having demanded , saying , what is then the preferment of the jew ? or what is the profit of circumcision ? answereth thus , much every way , and chiefly because unto them were committed the oracles of god. rom. . , . and the same apostle doth not acknowledge the gentiles to have obtained mercy at the hands of god , untill the time of their calling by the ministry of the gospell . rom. . . in these words : ye in times past have not believed god , yet have now obtained mercy through their unbeliefe . this might suffice for answer to this argument , taking it in the full strength thereof . but i am content to runne over the whole discourse , and to take every part of it into consideration . . he saith , god is mercy in the abstract , and love. by this it is apparent that the attributes divine , are the very essence divine , otherwise they could not be predicated thereof in the abstract , and consequently , they can no more be of the same nature with vertues morall in us , then the divine essence can be of the same nature with an accident . . he is a saviour of men ; true , and it is as true : that he saveth both man and beast : and as for men , though he be a saviour of them all , yet in speciall sort of them that believe . . when he saith of the love of christ , that it is without height , and depth , and length , and breadth , he doth overlash : for the apostles prayer is in the place quoted by him on the behalfe of the ephesians , that christ may dwell in their hearts by faith , that being rooted and grounded in love , they may be able to comprehend with all saints , what is the breadth and length , and depth , & height . for though the height of it be such , as is incomprehensible by us in this world , yet the apostle supposeth an height , depth , length , and breadth thereof , rather then denies it . . he saith gods mercy is advanced above his justice ; not in respect of its essence , for all gods excellencies are infinitely good , and one is not greater then another ; but in things that concerne the expressions of it . here we have words , but can any wise man draw it to any sober sense ? what i pray is it to advance mercy above justice , in things that concerne the expressions of it ? he saith it is more naturall and deare to god then his justice : what reason is there for this , if the one be equally as excellent as the other ? to make this good with some colour at least ; he alleadgeth mich. . . mercy pleaseth him , or he delights in it . the like we read jer. . namely , that god delights in mercy : and in the same place the lord professeth joyntly , that he delights in judgement . but isaiah . . judgement is called his strange worke ; now three severall times , have i received this , from three severall hands of arminians ; each giving the same interpretation of it , as if it were called a strange work , because it is alienum a naturâ dei. i know none but papists doe justify them in this interpretation ; in my judgement a most unreasonable exposition ; the lord taking unto himselfe the execution of judgement , as his peculiar , saying , vengeance is mine and i will repay ; and magistrates are but gods ministers for this ; and he professeth his delight in this as well as in the execution of mercy . it is true he doth not inflict judgement without cause , for that were not a work of judgement in proper speech , but of power , and absolutenesse rather , as in turning a holy and innocent creature into nothing . and in that respect he is said not to afflict willingly ; sinne alwaies deserving it . mercy is of another nature , and supposeth free grace , though i find little or no notice this author takes of this , throughout his discourse ; neither doe i find that he or any arminian acknowledge , that the change of a mans heart is wrought in a man of the meere grace of god , without any motive cause in the creature . neither doe all papists concurre in this interpretation , for lyra and burgensis are together by the eares hereabouts ; and our divines as junius and piscator doe render it , opus insolens & terribile , an unusuall and terrible judgement , interpreting it of bringing the babylonians upon them ; so strange a worke , that they should wonder at it . and as moses foretold , that god should bring upon them wonderfull judgements . deut. . so the prophet abakuk sets it forth in like manner . abak . . . behold among the heathen , and regard and wonder and marvaile , for i will worke a worke in your daies ; you will not believe it , though it be told you . for loe , i raise up the caldeans , that bitter and furious nation , which shall goe upon the breadth of the land to possesse the dwelling places that are not theirs . and , jer. . . behold i will bring a plague upon this place which whosoever heareth his eares shall ●ingle . for seeing gods lawes are strange things unto them . hos . . . god would bring such judgements upon them , that should be as strange unto them . and in the same phrase it is said that destruction is to the wicked , and strange punishment to the workers of iniquity . job . . . yet be this granted him , it is nothing to the purpose . for be it never so deere unto god , yet if he restraineth his chiefe mercy which consists in changing the heart ( whereof this author seems unwilling to take any distinct notice ) only to the elect , called accordingly in scripture vessells of mercy , in distinction from vessells of wrath , which are the reprobates , this nothing prejudiceth the absolutenesse of reprobation . and as for the frequent exercise thereof ; we read , zeph. . . that every morning god bringeth his judgements to light : and as for the mercy which consists in regenerating man , which alone is to the present purpose ; it is apparent , that it is farre lesse frequently shewed , then the contrary judgement in obduration ; and certainly the vessells of mercy are by farre fewer then the vessells of wrath : and as for temporall mercies , the more frequent they are , the worse , where the spirit of regeneration is wanting , through the corruption of man , that makes him thereupon the more obdurate . the vanity of the next , as touching the amplitude of the objects whereto mercy is extended ( though this alone is to the present purpose ) i have already sufficiently discovered ; it being apparent that in scripture phrase , only the elect are counted vessells of mercy , and all the rest vessells of wrath . as there be examples of gods long suffering and patience , so we have fearfull examples of the suddainesse of gods judgements , taking men and women away in the very act of sinne . thus the israelites in the wildernesse , when the flesh of quailes was in their mouth , the heavy wrath of god came upon them , and sent them to the graves of lust . zimri and cozbi perished in their incestuous act , and gave up both lust and ghost together . balshazzar a king , cut off in his drunken revells , to make good the prophecy of isaiah , the night of my pleasures hath he turned into feare unto me . and in like manner the wrath of god seazed upon herod in his pride . but above all , this appears in gods dealings with his angells , who sinned once , and fell for ever without all hope of recovery . and as for gods sparing a man in case god gives not repentance , what will be the issue , but filling up of the measure of their sinnes ? for to speak in austins language , contra julian . pelag. lib. . cap. . quantamlibet praebuerit patientiam , nisi deus dederit , quis agit paenitentiam ? now the case is cleare , god gives repentance to a very few , who are in scripture called vessells of mercy ; which nothing at all prejudiceth the absolutenesse of reprobation . . of the riches of gods mercies to his children , we nothing doubt : but what doth this prejudice the absolutenesse of reprobating those whom he never meaneth to make his children ? but here it is to be suspected , that this author accounts all and every one the children of god ; for forthwith he confounds this notion with the notion of creatures , quite contrary to the most generall current of scripture , not of the new testament only , which teacheth us , that we are the children of god by faith in christ jesus . gal. . and if children then heires , even heirs of god , and heirs annext with christ . rom. . but of the old testament also . gen. : . the sonnes of god saw the daughters of men that they were faire , &c. exod. . . thou shalt say to pharaoh , thus saith thè lord , israel is my sonne , my first borne ; wherefore i say , let my sonne goe that he may serve me : if thou refuse to let him goe , behold i will visit thy sonne , even thy first borne . deut. . . ye are the children of the lord your god. . thou art an holy people to the lord thy god , and the lord hath chosen thee to be a precious people to himselfe , above all the people that are upon the earth . that of the hen , though we give him liberty to amplify her naturall affections , as one of the most affectionate females among unreasonable creatures , yet doth it nothing profit him for it represents gods love appropriated to his children , which nothing prejudiceth the absolutenesse of his power reprobating others . nay rather as it justifies his absolutenesse in electing them , if we consider the meere grace of god to have made the difference , as the scripture sheweth . deut. . . the lord loved you because he loved you ; and deut. . at large he beats them out of all conceit of any righteousnesse in them , moving the lord to plant them in the land of canaan ; so by consequent it justifies the doctrine of absolute reprobation also : for as much as the apostle professeth , that like as god hath mercy on whom he will , so also he hardneth whom he will. yet hereis much matter made of the hen ; like as d. jackson hath done it before him , but he betrayes no such authority for it out of austin as this author doth : to whom he is beholding for it , himselfe best knoweth ; if the pedegree be enquired into , their conceits may be found to be of kinne ; yet give me leave to say somewhat of this similitude also . and first , this author commits a very great anomaly , in entring upon it with such state , as proves nothing answerable to his own profession anon after , almost in the same breath . marke the state ( i pray ) of his entrance hereupon , thus : and as if these comparisons were too small too expresse gods affection to his creatures , he proceeds farther : now the comparisons preceding were taken from reasonable creatures , as namely from fatherly and motherly affections ( amongst men ) towards their children ; and these comparisons he signifies to have been to small , to expresse gods affections to his creatures : and that therefore the lord proceeds farther , and compares himselfe to a hen , which he saith is one of the most affectionate females among unreasonable creatures ; not daring to say , t is more affectionate then creatures reasonable ; yet most improvidently carried away with affectation of a rhetoricall flourish , he faignes a gradation from creatures lesse affectionate , to creatures more affectionate , and presently himselfe beats out the braines of his invention , ( before he is aware ) as soon as it is borne . as for austins amplification of the affectionate nature of an hen above other creatures ; we may consider that austins tractates on john , are of the nature of sermons , and therein the ancients doe accommodate themselves to popular amplifications . it is true we doe not know sparrowes , swallowes , storkes , doves , to be mothers , but when we see them in their nests ; but what is the true reason hereof ? is it not because their young ones are wild , and as soon as they are apt to fly , one flies one way , and another flies another way , they come together no more ; it is not so with chickens which are tame creatures , and we see the carriage of the hen towards them , we doe not see the carriage of other fowles towards their young ones . yet we read not the like of a hen , as of a storke , that when her nest was on fire , out of a desire to save them with her wings from the fire , hath not forsaken her young ones till shee was burnt her selfe ; and we have seen also how a hen hath sometimes peckt her young ones , and driven them from her , when they would have roosted under her . and in my judgement our saviour doth not represent his tender affection to the jewes , by the generall affection of an hen to hers , but to that particular carriage of hers in desiring to gather her chickens under her wings . * neither doe i think that he who invited those mighty men , but unto what ? unto a hen , was to expresse his singularity of affection towards them : be it that god is more mercifull to man then to all other creatures ; whence i pray proceeds this ? is it not meerly from the good pleasure of his own will ? and if so , why may he not , out of the meere pleasure of his own will restraine his saving mercy to some few , who are accordingly called in scripture expressely vessells of mercy ; distinguished from all the rest who are called vessells of wrath . whereas he saith , that with such a mercy cannot stand such a decree , as absolute reprobation . we answer ; neither doe we say any such decree doth stand with such a mercy ; it is rather absolute election stands with such a mercy , then any reprobation . the scripture plainly giving us to understand , that they on whom reprobation passeth , are not vessells of mercy , but vessells of wrath . but like as god though he spared not angells when they fell , nor left any way open unto them for repentance , whereby to returne to his grace and favour , yet he spared man , and left a way open unto him , to returne to his grace and favour by faith in christ . in like sort , though god were pleased absolutely to elect some amongst men , yet this nothing precludes him from dealing as absolutely in reprobating others , that is , in purposing to deny them the spirit of faith and repentance , whereby they might rise after they were fallen ; which grace most freely and absolutely he decreed to bestow , and as freely and absolutely he doth bestow on others , according to that of the apostle , rom. . . he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . by this i pray judge of the insipid nature of this discourse , yet see the foulenesse of his mouth ; unlesse god be indifferent unto all , and make all vessells of mercy , he is a father of cruelty , and more properly so to be called , then a father of mercies , and the very name of the devill ( for so he takes upon him to interpret that name in the revelation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a destroyer ) is good enough for him . and the conscience of his own piety , no doubt expert in paraphrasing , and shaping some rhetoricall flourishes , and passionate expressions , bears him out with such confidence as to feare no blasphemy . it is very likely he hath a high conceit of these performances , that he is so bold , as to professe in effect , that if the contrary be true , then will he be guilty of as great blasphemy , as to have called god satan ; yet see the absurdity ( that throughout he may be like himselfe ) of his discourse ; whatsoever god be accounted by him in respect of reprobates , doth this any way hinder him from being the father of mercies towards his elect , who alone in scripture phrase are called vessells of mercy ? his hatred of esau , doth it any way hinder his love to jacob ? if to damne be to destroy , and no creature hath power to damne but god only , can any be a destroyer in this kind but god , as the efficient cause of damnation and destruction ? but in case our doctrine holds , doth he damne any but for sinne ? and shall he in this case be stiled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the sense it is delivered in the revelation ? what thinks he ? if many thousands , even all the infants of turkes and sarazens dying in originall sinne , are tormented by him in hell fire , is he to be accounted the father of cruelties for this ? and i professe i cannot devise a greater shew and appearance of cruelty , then in this . now i beseech you consider the spirit that breatheth in this man ; dares he censure god , as a father of cruelties for executing eternall death upon them that are guilty of it ? now hath not he himselfe professed , that all borne in originall sinne , are borne guilty of eternall death ? his words are these , fol. . p. . that all mankind is involved in the first sinne , and the fruits thereof , which are corruption of nature , and the guilt of eternall death . and this he confidently believes . now i should think , that there is no shew of cruelty in executing eternall death on them that are guilty of it : for if god were cruell herein , then also he were cruell in damning each one whom he doth damne both men and angells . now i pray , let every sober reader judge , which is the greater cruelty of the two , to execute eternall death on him that is guilty of it , or to make him by meere imputation guilty of eternall death , who otherwise is not guilty of it ? is not this latter farre greater cruelty then the former ? or indeed the only cruelty ; there being no cruelty in the other at all ? ( like as cicero said , for a mule to bring forth having conceived , is no strange thing , but for a mule to conceive that indeed is prodigious . ) now this latter is this authors doctrine , expressely professing in the next page to that where now we are , that the sinne of adam ( the fruit whereof he makes to be the guilt of eternall death . ) is the sinne of our nature by imputation only : whence it followeth , that god makes all men guilty of eternall death by imputation only . now judge i pray which of us makes god the father of cruelties , he or wee ? this is the fruit of opposition to gods grace ; for how can they tast of that grace of god which they impugne , and in impugning it , how can it be but that they should be given over to the curse of gods wrath , to fill up the measure of their sinne , as it is said of the jewes , to fulfill their sinne alway , for the wrath of god is come upon them to the uttermost ; yea and to be stricken with the spirit of giddinesse also ; and become like a drunken man , that erreth in his vomit , the issue whereof is to defile himselfe , and those that are nearest to him . yet he trembles to think of these blasphemies ; for in all this you must think his zeale is very warme , and his piety reakes . so saul persecuted the saints of god as blaspheamers ; but when god did strike him downe with a light from heaven , that he found that himselfe only was the blaspheamer . tim. . well , i am contented to consider his reaking fit . doth his mercy please him , when he hath made such a decree , as shewes farre more severity towards men then mercy ? why ( holy sir ) gods severity towards some , who in scripture are called vessells of wrath , what doth it hinder gods mercy towards his elect ? gods severity towards the jewes , did it any whit qualify gods bountifulnesse towards the gentiles ? i marvaile not , he holds up his discourse of gods mercy in generall , that so it might be appliable to all ; this was a pretty dogge-trick of his . but if gods mercy hath his course towards his children only , as himselfe makes the accommodation , if god be severe towards those who are none of his , shall this any way prejudice his mercy towards them ? or if he take liberty to account all gods creatures his children by reason of creation , why doth he not extend the mercy of god to devills also , and for shame leave off his former distinction of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and confesse ingeniously , that t is not worth a rush . but whether he will acknowledge it or no , the apostle plainly speaks of vessells of mercy , in distinction from vessels of wrath , and surely the course of his wrath on them , doth nothing impaire the free course of his mercy toward others . but give we him leave , to breath on : is he slow to anger , when he hath taken such a small and speedy occasion to punish the greater part of men in hell torments for ever , and for one sinne once committed , hath shut up the greater part of men under invincible unbeliefe and damnation ? now , i pray , apply this his devout interrogation unto the angells that fell , who upon the first sinne committed by them , have ever since been shut up under invincible hardnesse of heart , and damnation . yet what doth this hinder his slownesse of anger , which is to be understood of the execution of his wrath ; not of his decree . for all the decrees of god are everlasting , nor can be otherwise . and as for the execution of wrath , the devills themselves feele it not yet ; they are reserved to the judgement of the great day ; they believe and tremble ; they cryed out to our saviour , art thou come to torment us before our time ? nay suppose all were to be damned to eternall death as soon as they were borne , what injustice were there in this , if so be all be found guilty of eternall death , which this author denies not ? nay farther , he saith it is god that hath made them guilty of it by meere imputation : yet as for the corruption of nature , which he makes to be the other fruit of adams sinne , i doe not find that he ascribes that to divine imputation . now what is the nature of this corruption , is it invincible unbeliefe or no ? if it be , then he disputes against himselfe , as well as against us ; if it be not , what unbeliefe doth he call it , or is it no unbeliefe at all ? so i demand whether it be invincible hardnesse of heart or no ? if not , whether at all it is to be called hardnesse of heart ? if notwithstanding this corruption a man hath power to believe , to obay , power to yeeld to any spirituall good whereto he shall be excited , why doth he call it naturall corruption ? the apostle plainly professeth of them that are in the flesh , that they cannot please god ; that the naturall man perceiveth not the things of god , and that he cannot know them : of some , that they could not believe : of others , that they cannot repent . but be all this granted , he is never a whit the lesse slow to anger , that is , to punish ; the devills themselves as yet doe rather feare then feele his wrath . lastly , touching punishing in hell , it is either spoken of infants , or men of ripe years , if of infants departing in infancy ; if guilty of eternall death , t is no injustice to inflict it ; and though he be slow to anger towards some , yet it is not necessary he should be so to others . the scriptures witnesse the contrary , in the flood where infants perished as well as others ; and in the destruction of sodome by fire , where none were spared save lot and his two daughters . as for men of ripe years , their damnation is not for originall sinne only , but for actuall sinnes unrepented of . the angells fell irrecoverably upon one actuall sinne ; i know not the like condition of any besides . and as for the smallnesse of adams sinne , which this author is pleased to extenuate , by calling it a small occasion , as if he were of his spirit that said , if god turned adam out of paradise for eating an apple , shall not i turne thee out of my service for purloyning a fat capon ? why doth he not charge god rather , for making all men hereupon guilty of eternall death by meere imputation , as himselfe saith ; then for inflicting eternall death only on them that are guilty of it , as we say ? but let we him finish the declamation he hath begunne . is his mercy abundant , doth it extend it selfe farther then justice , when it is tackt up so short , limited to a very few chosen ones , when a hundred for one at least are unavoidably cast away , out of his only will and pleasure . as touching this i have already shewed , how much he is out in his algebra , but let that passe , unlesse this divine take upon him to deliver truer oracles then saint paul , we are bound to believe , that the elect only are vessells of mercy , distinguished from reprobates , as vessells of wrath . rom. . , . and toward these alone it is , that his mercy is abundant , in the way of bestowing saving and spirituall graces . it is untrue , that he hath proved any such thing as he pretends , namely that gods mercy is extended to more persons then his justice . and applied aright , namely as touching mercy seen in pardoning sinnes , in changing the heart , and saving soules , which are peculiar to gods elect , the most brazen faced opposite to gods holy truth that liveth cannot deny , but that they to whom these are granted , are farre fewer then they to whom they are denied . and if within the church only ( for there only are found such as feare god ) his mercy extends to thousands of them that feare him , when but to the third and fourth generation he punisheth the sinnes of the father upon the children , ( which is all the proofe this author brings to this purpose ) it followeth not herehence , that his mercy extendeth any whit to more then doth his justice , considering the small proportion of those within the church , and therein of them that feare him , in comparison to those without the church . and like as visiting the sinne of fathers , which is commonly understood of temporall punishments , so in proportion the mercy is to be understood of temporall mercy . and we well know that it is nothing necessary , that a man that fears god , should have children . and like as god doth not alwaies thus visit the sinnes of fathers upon the children ; in like sort it is not alwaies necessary , that god should shew mercy to thousands of every one of them that feare him . he dealt so with abraham , isaack , and iacob ; they to whom the law was delivered , knew this full well ; then again , must not they who look to have an interest in this gracious promise , look unto it , that they walk in the steps of their forefathers that feared god ? by all which may appeare , the superficiary nature of this disputants argumentation , even then , when the zeale of his cause makes him , as most confident , so also most luxuriant . lastly , doe we say that god damnes any man out of his only will and pleasure ? doe we not professe that he damnes no man but for sinne ? and as he damnes no man but for sinne , so likewise that he decreed to damne no man but for sinne , though there could be no cause of this his decree , but of his meere will and pleasure he made this decree , namely , to damne many thousands for their sinnes . but let him come to an end of this his roaving discourse , when he thinks good and not before . or doth his love passe knowledge , when we see daily greater love then this in men , and other creatures . what father or mother , would determine their children to certain death , or to cruell torments worse then death , for one only offence , and that committed too , not by them in their own persons , but by some other , and only imputed unto them ? how much lesse would they give themselves to beget children , and bring them forth , that they might bring them to the rack , fire , gallowes , and such like tortures and deaths ; what doe i heare ? doth man or any creature , shew more love to their children , then god doth towards his elect ? did they ever provide such a sacrifice to make satisfaction for their childrens sinnes , as god did provide for his ? yea but reprobates also are gods children , this must needs be his meaning , though in plain termes he spared to expresse so much . how unnaturall then was christ , who would not pray for the world if they were all his children ? and what meant he to professe , that he sanctified himselfe only for them for whom he prayed ? which sanctification of himselfe , was in respect of the offering up of himselfe upon the crosse , as maldonate confesseth , was the interpretation of all the fathers whom he had read . and in that prayer professeth of them saying , they are thine , and thou gavest them unto me , as much as to say ; the world was not his . and farther consider ; is it safe to measure out gods proceedings , by the proceedings of men ? what father or mother would be content to execute a child of theirs upon the gallowes , when by some capitall crime he hath deserved it ? how much lesse hold them upon the rack of continuall tortures ; what then ? must not god be allowed to inflict eternall death upon his creatures ? and what hath an earthly father or mother to doe , either to determine or execute death on any ? this belongs to god not to man , unlesse he make choyce of them , as of his ministers for the execution of vengeance . but this author is nothing yet awaked out of his dreames , or his arminian lethargy . yet i hope he will grant that god did foresee all this , even the sinnes of judas in betraying , and of the jewes in crucifying the sonne of god ; yet neverthelesse , he was content to bring forth both him and them into the world. now what earthly father and mother , would not make choyce rather to be childlesse , then to bring forth such children as should deale with them , as nero dealt with his mother ? proceed then : and as from the affections of earthly fathers and mothers , he disputes against the absolutenesse of gods decrees , so also in the next place , let him conclude the like , to the utter overthrowing of gods foreknowledge . yet who of our divine saith , that god for one offence hath determined death and tortures to any reprobate of ripe years ? doe they not all professe , that as many as dye in actuall sinnes unrepented of , god determined to damne them for those actuall sinnes unrepented of ? i doe not think he can alleadge any that denies this . againe , what one of our divines maintaines that infants perishing in originall sinne , are damned for that sinne , which is made theirs only by imputation ? what a shamelesse habit hath he gotten to himselfe to deliver untruths ? yet will he not ( i warrant you ) be accounted a pelagian , neither will he plainly deny originall sinne as grevincovius is said to have done , and that testibus convinci potuit . their tenets are nothing lesse shamefull , then pelagius his tenets were , only they have not that ingenuity which pelagius had , in professing plainly , that there was no originall sinne conveyed unto us by propagation . now he comes more closely unto the matter , yet but a little neither ; a loose and dissolute discourse is most suitable with his genius . . adams sinne was no mans personall sinne but adams ; true , for there was no man then but adam ; but all men being the posterity of adam , were then in adam , in that one person of adam , and in him all have sinned , saith the apostle , rom. . and without consent to sinne they could not sinne . . when he saith this sinne of adam , was not the sinne of our nature by generation ; it is so wild an expression , that i professe i cannot devise any tolerable sense of it . that we were in adam when he sinned , it was fully sufficient to bring upon us that corruption , that depth of corruption wherein we are all conceived and borne , and not by imputation . what divine amongst papists or protestants is he , that maintains , that adams sinne , was the sinne of our nature by imputation ? this is undoubtedly one of arminius his flowers , which this author takes up among the rest , to make himselfe a nosegay to smell unto . it was gods will that all should stand or fall in him . for if it had pleased him , he could have destroyed adam for his transgression , and made a new stock , from whom to derive the world of mankind : but resolving all should descend from him , he must withall resolve , that upon the sinne of adam , and of them all in him , they must take from him such natures as adams nature , and therein all our natures were made corrupt by sinne ; excepting gods grace to provide better , both for adam and his posterity , as he thought good . so that look in what sort adams nature was corrupted by sinne , in such sort must we receive corrupt natures from him . here calvin is brought in with a robe of commendation , as an excellent servant of god : but god knowes his heart , and the hearts of all that oppose gods truth in these poynts . t is true that calvin saith , both in respect of gods power , to have propagated mankind from another originall then from adam as also in respect of his power , to reforme corrupt nature , in whomsoever it pleased him . but did calvin think it possible , for corrupt nature , to propagate any other nature then it selfe is ? god made man after his image and likenesse ; but afterwards we read that adam brought forth a sonne , after his image and likenesse ; who can bring a clean thing out of that which is uncleane , saith the book of job ? and that which is borne of flesh is flesh , saith our saviour . but doth it herehence follow , or doth calvin , or any calvinist , or lutheran , or papist , say , that adams sinne is made ours only by imputation ? the case is not alike of other parents . for adam was created in grace , and endued with the spirit of god : this holy condition was lost by the sinne of adam , and we receiving our natures from him , in the state of his corruption , must therewithall receive , natures bereaved of grace , and of the spirit of god. no such detriment to our pure nature was wrought , or could be wrought , by the transgression of any other progenitor , no , nor by any other sinne of adam besides the first . . god did pardon it in adam upon his repentance , so is he ready to pardon it , and all actuall sinnes also of all men upon their repentance . and god renewed adam too , of his free grace after he was corrupt , and regenerated him by shewing mercy upon him ; but this work proceeds according to the meer pleasure of gods will , as the apostle witnesseth saying , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . . christ came into the world , to take away the sinnes of the world , that is by satisfaction for sinne , to merit the pardon of it , nor pardon of sinne only , but salvation of soule also ; but for whom ? surely for none but such as should sooner or latter believe in him ; for god hath ordained that these benefits of christs death and obedience , should not be distributed absolutely , but conditionally , to wit , upon the condition of faith . but as for the benefits of faith and repentance , these are not benefits communicable upon a condition ; for what condition can precede them but a worke of man ? and it was condemned years agoe : to say grace is given according unto merits , that bellarmine interprets simply of works ; though papists are apt enough to stand for merits , and the apostle saith in plain tearmes , that god doth not call us according unto works ; these therefore are communicated according to the meere pleasure of gods will : he might have given faith to all , but he would not , i will shew mercy on whom i will shew mercy , and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion . exod. . these things ( he saith ) being well considered , will make any man ( as he thinks ) to conclude in his thoughts , that if there be any such decree , god is not mercifull to men at all . a most unshamefac't pretence , and savouring of a spirit that hath expectorated all naturall ingenuity : doth not every one perceive , that all this nothing at all hinders the incomprehensible nature of gods mercy towards his elect ? dares he himselfe in plain termes deny this , namely that it nothing prejudiceth the course of gods mercy towards his elect ? for what if by the sinne wherein they are borne , they be made guilty of eternall death , yet if god be pleased to pardon this sinne , nor this only , but all actuall transgressions of theirs ; yea , and break the yoake of their corruption , and as he seeth their wayes so to heale them , yea to heale their rebellions , and backslidings , to subdue their iniquities , to rule them with a mighty hand , to make them passe under the rod , and bring them unto the bond of the covenant , and when he hath brought them thither , to hold them there , to perfect the good work he hath begun in them ; as he hath laid the foundation of his temple in their hearts , so to finish it , to be the author and finisher of their faith , and as of their faith , so of their repentance , to hold them in his hands , so that none shall take them therehence , to keep them by the power of god through faith unto salvation , to build them upon a rock that the gates of hell shall not prevaile against them ; either to deliver them from the howre of temptation , or to deliver them out of it , or so to order it , that it shall not be above their strength , to be with them when they goe through the water , and through the fire , that the floods shall not overwhelme them , the fire shall not burne them , but as he leads them into it , so he will support them in it , and lead them through it , as he led the children of israel into the red sea , and in the red sea ( as an horse in the wildernesse , that they should not stumble ) and out of the red sea , into the wildernesse , and in the wildernesse , and out of the wildernesse ; in a word , to fulfill the good pleasure of his goodnesse towards them , his grace in them , and every good work that he hath appoynted for them ; in such sort that the beast shall not prevaile over them , untill they have finished their testimony : and in which respect saint stephen , even when the stones flew about his eares as thick as haile , seems to have gone to his death , as composedly as a man goes to his bed ; having ended his sermon first , his prayer for them in the next place , and lastly the commending of his own spirit into the hands of god : this mercy , this rich mercy , this unspeakable mercy , this author most virulently , and most unconscionably , in cunning and crafty carriage , labours to obscure and deface , and to dispute us out of the faith of it , if it lay in his power ( which lies not in the power of the devills themselves ) as much as himselfe , and his informers scorne to apprehend any hope of it ; and all this as unsipidly and unscholastically , as profanely , by generall and indefinite termes , saying , by this doctrine of ours god is not mercifull to men at all ; wherein i guesse his lurking hole is , in the indefinite condition of the terme men ; for dares he say , that by this doctrine of ours we make god unmercifull to all men , even to the very elect ? yet when he saith , to men at all , the face of his discourse in the common understanding of it , should look this way . but if his meaning be , that he is not made mercifull to all , hath himselfe any farther improved the mercy of god , then by enlarging of it unto the children of god ? and if he by children of god , understand all men created by him , and we , only those , whom god hath adopted in christ and regenerated , i pray consider , which of us , delivereth himselfe in best congruity to the scripture phrase and meaning ? can he be ignorant , who they be whom the scripture stiles vessells of mercy ? or that these are set in opposition to vessells of wrath ; and would he have us as brainsick as himselfe to put no difference in the accommodation of gods mercy ; between vessells of mercy , and vessells of wrath ? as for the comparison between men and other creatures , he is like himselfe throughout in the execution thereof . . he undertakes to shew , that god is not so mercifull to men as to bruit creatures ; most men are determined by gods omnipotent decree , to such a being as is a thousand times worse then no being at all . to let passe the absurdity of the comparison , comparing things incomparable , to wit , being with no being ; and ascribing a betternesse to no being , which is as much as to ascribe a better being to no being . doth not he himselfe acknowledge that as the elect are but few amongst them that are called , so the number of reprobates , is farre greater then the number of the elect ? doth not himselfe maintaine , that god hath determined all reprobates ( that is the most of men ) by his omnipotent decree , to such a being as is a thousand times worse then no being at all , according to his judgement , and that this determination divine is everlasting ? or though he dare not in plain tearmes deny , that god hath determined most of men to damnation . doth he not here bewray the disposition of his heart , namely , either to maintaine that gods decrees are not everlasting , nor determined concerning men , untill their deaths , or that they are of a revocable nature ? or will he fly to the qualification of the divine decree here mentioned , and say that albeit the most part of men are destinated to damnation by the decree divine , yet not by an omnipotent decree ? i guesse his meaning is not by an absolute , but by a conditionall decree ; for as for any distinction of divine decrees , into decrees omnipotent , i never yet read or heard ; but this gentleman being of a phrasifying spirit , we must permit him sometimes to overlash , otherwise we shall not have occasion to say of him , as augustus said sometimes of haterius , haterius noster sufflaminandus est . but if by a conditionall decree only , god hath reprobated those whom he hath reprobated , then the decrees of reprobation cannot be eternall , but must needs be temporall ; for res conditionata , the thing conditionated cannot exsist before the condition it selfe ( whereupon it depends ) hath exsistence . now the condition of reprobation is meerly temporall , to wit , finall perseverance in infidelity or impenitency . . what if the condition of other creatures , be better then the condition of reprobates ? for what sober man should expect that the condition of impenitent sinners should be better in the end , then the condition of beasts , who have made themselves worse then beasts ? but then he will say , what shall become of all those amplifications of gods mercy towards men , commended to us in holy scripture ? i answere they all have place concerning gods children , gods elect , the scripture phrase acknowledging no other vessells of mercy , and counting all others in distinction from them vessell of wrath ; and one end whereto tends gods providence towards these vessells , the apostle signifies plainly to be the amplification of his mercy towards the vessells of mercy . rom. . , . which may be unfolded thus , that by seeing the miserable conditions of vessells of wrath , they may be more sensible of gods mercy towards them , in putting so gracious a difference between them . . it cannot be denied , but god foresaw what the condition of most men would be , if they were brought forth into the world ; what then did god mean to bring them forth ? where was his mercy in this ? were it not a thousand times better for them not to be borne ? and by being borne , was it not infallible that their condition would be a thousand times worse then the condition of beasts , according to this authors grave and philosophicall discourse ? . consider though god foresaw , that being so dealt withall , as god meant they should be , they would never repent nor believe ; yet seeing god had other means and motives in store , which he knew full well would prove effectuall , to bring them to faith and repentance , were he pleased to use them ; ( as arminius acknowledgeth , as i have often cited him , and it cannot be denied by the maintainers of scientia media . ) where was gods mercy , that would both have them brought forth , and use only such means to bring them to faith and repentance , which he knew would prove ineffectuall , and resolved not to use such means with them , which hee knew would prove effectuall thereunto ? i appeale to the judgement of every sober man , whether this proceeded not meerely from gods absolute decree to make them vessells of wrath , that is fit vessells in whom should shine the glory of his vindicative justice ; even to shew the riches of his glory towards the vessells of mercy , whom he had prepared unto glory , as on whom he was pleased to bestow such means of grace , as he knew full well would prove effectuall to bring them to faith and repentance , and finall preseverance , that so their soules might be saved in the day of our lord jesus christ : marke i beseech you an evident demonstration from invincible grounds of the truth , which this author by base and superficiary considerations , labours to deface and exstinguish if he could . for what if in the state of nothing , they were so intelligent as this author faines them , as to know to what end god made them , and thereupon , would not accept of life ? what if afterwards they should curse the day of their birth , and wish they had been made toads or snakes ? what shall god be therefore straitned in the exercise of his power , to make what creatures he will , and to what end he will ? for qui dedit esse , good reason , quo fine sint habeat potestatem : what if the clay were so intelligent as to know , that it should be fashioned into a vessell for a close-stoole or chamberpot , when his neighbour clay shall be fashioned into a drinking cup to serve at the table of king agathocles , and it , out of the clayey stomack and pride thereof , shall repine and grudge to be so basely used , and say ( in one of aesops fables ) that it had rather continue clay still ; shall therefore the potter forgoe his soveraignty in making of the same lumpe one vessell unto honour , and another unto dishonour ? what if god should tell nebuchodonosor that after he is dead , his scull should be turned to some such base use , and that some common jakes should have the bottome of it pitcht with his bones ; and he thereupon should wish he had never been rather ; shall this be sufficient to derogate from the soveraigne power of god , or restrain him from the like , or from giving jehoiakims body no better burying then the buriall of an asse ? or cause stately and proud jezabells body to be eaten of doggs ? o what base manner of discourses are these to deflower the power and soveraignty of the almighty ! but i wonder not if after men have prostituted all honesty in opposing the grace of god , they are soon found to loose their witts also . yet i have not done , i must not pretermit to answer his scripture passage . what if it had been good for iudas he had never been borne ; it were as true if there were no absolute decree of god for his damnation , but foreknowledge only that he would be demned ; but shall god therefore be forbidden upon the forfeiture of the reputation of his goodnesse , to bring forth iudas into the world ? but by the way our saviours words doe not import hereby , that it were better for him he had not been ; for a being he might have had though never borne into life , as many a one hath had , that never saw the light of the sunne , their wombe being their grave . but because some mens tongues runne ryot against me , for the interpretation of this passage , which i make in my vindiciae , not sparing to professe they will turne atheists , when that is true , and as ready they have been to professe under their hand , that they will sooner deny there is a god then concurre with the contra-remonstrants in their doctrine of reprobation : i pray let them be enquired of , whether they , or any wise man else , was ever known after such a manner to outface the interpretation that maldonate gives of that very place , which here i will subjoyne for speciall reason : thus then maldonate , de quo verbo nimis fortasse subtiliter quidam disputant , quomodo melius iudae fuisset , natum non esse , cum non esse , nullum , damnatum esse , aliquod bonum sit ; aliquid enim est , qui damnatus est ; omne autem quod est , qua est , bonum est . hieronymus judicat existimasse aliquos , iudam fuisse , antequam nasceretur , christumque certo consilio non dixisse , melius fuisset homini illi , si numquam fuisset , sed si natus non esset , quasi , etiamsi non nasceretur , futurus fuisset , ideoque naturalia bona sine malis habiturus . suspicor d. hieronymum originistas notare voluisse , qui omnes animas initio creatas fuisse crediderunt & pro suo quamque merito aut expertem manere corporis , aut in corpus tanquam in carcerem mitti ; & vero origines ipse ita hoc loco scribere videtur , ut non longe ab eâ sententiâ abhorrere videatur . eodem fere modo , enthymius interpretatur : at length he addes his own interpretation of the place in the words following , sed non sunt hujusmodi , scripturae locutiones ad scholarum excutiendae subtilitatem : sunt enim proverbiales , & sumptae de vulgo , in quibus quidam plerumque hyperbolicum esse solet , ut apud job . cap. . . quare non in vulvâ mortuus sum ? egressus ex utero non saltem perii ? et cap. . , . quare de vulvâ aduxisti me ? qui utinam consumptus essem ne oculus me videret , fuissem , quasi non essem , de utero translatus ad tumulum . et cap. . . et jer. . . pereat dies in qua natus sum . haec enim omnia non tam deliberato animi judicio , quam per querimoniam quae mala sua amplificare solet , dicta sunt . christus ergo ita de juda loquitur , quemadmodum credibile erat , ipsum de se in suppliciis positum esse loquuturum . erat autem credibile eum dicturum esse utinam nunquam natus essem , melius mihi fuisset non nasci , quam ista pati ; cum job & jeremias viri sanctissimi multo minor a passi idem dixerint . adde quod christus non dicit melius futurum fuisse , ut judas non nascitur , sed melius futurum illi esse , id est , ejus opinione , & judicio : quemadmodum multis res adversas patientibus accidere videmus , ut corrupto dolore judicio mortem vitae anteponant , cum dubium non sit melius esse vivere quam mori . . i come to the comparison he makes between men and devills , objecting that our doctrine makes god lesse mercifull to men then to devills . in one thing ( saith he ) this decree makes most men and devills equall , utrisque desperata salus , they are both sure to be damned . now i say , this is most untrue . what man living is in a worse state then manasses was , when he made his children passe through the fire to devills , gave himselfe to witchcraft and sorcery , and filled jerusalem with bloud ? on saul when flesh'd with the bloud of stephen , and ferox scelerum quia prima provenerant , he got a commission from the high priest to goe to damascus , and bind all that called on the name of the lord jesus ; yet it appeared in the issue that both these were the elect of god. doe not they themselves professe that reprobation is upon finall perseverance in infidelity or impenitency ? so that there is no sufficient evidence of reprobation , but this finall perseverance in sinne . in like sort by their doctrine , none can be sure of his election untill he be dead , because they constitute it upon foresight of finall perseverance in faith and repentance . it is true if god should reveale to any that he is a reprobate , he might be sure he should be damned , and that as well according to their shaping of reprobation , as according unto our . but in three things he saith men are in a farre worse condition by it ; let us consider them . . the first is , in their appoyntment unto hell , not for their own proper personall sinnes , but for the sinnes of another , made theirs only by gods order and pleasure . now i see why he pretends to oppose the sublapsarian way ( keeping his liberty upon every occasion to ejaculate what his malice can suggest unto him against the sublapsarian . ) for only against the sublapsarian way this objection hath place ; and that not justly , but most unjustly , most untruely . for not one of them that i know , doth maintain that god by reprobation intended to damne , either cain , or judas , or esau , but for their actuall sinnes and transgressions unrepented of . and as for those heathen infants who perish in originall sinne , they perish for that corruption wherein they are borne , which is as naturall unto them as the leprosy of the father , or any hereditary disease is naturally derived to the child ; by vertue whereof they are borne children of wrath , as the apostle expresseth , and if to be borne children of wrath , be to be in a worse condition then devills , seeing to be borne children of wrath , is not our making ; if it be of gods making , and that according to gods meer pleasure ; it must be acknowledged , that this is a worse condition , and neverthelesse god is to be justified herein : and wisdome is justified of her children : and if arminius will not concurre with us herein , sure i am papists will. for thus bellarmine discourseth , de lib. arbit . lib. . cap. ult . longe major justitiae rigor apparet in reprobatione hominum quam angelorum , tum quia maximam partem hominum , minimam angelorum reprobavit , tum ! etiam quoniam angelorum nullum de us paenae sempiternae addicit , nisi propter culpam propriâ voluntate comissam , hominum autem plurimos damnat propter solum originale peccatum , quod alienâ voluntate commissum fuisse non dubium est . and yet though in this respect , the rigor be greater , nevertheles considering the punishments of infants , which austin professeth to be mitissimam , thus it is qualified that undoubtedly it is better for thē to be as they are then to be devills . though as touching the kinds & degrees of punishmēt , that is of a mysterious nature , the scripture cōcealling it , and we have no help of reason to succour us in the investigation thereof . farre better , our care be to avoid it , both as well by orthodoxy of faith , as by holinesse of life . and him that looks for salvation by grace it behooves , to look unto it , how he shapes this grace of god , least if he be found to mock god , giving the main stock of his conversion to his own free will , rather then unto god , he may be mocked in the end , and meet with no better salvation , then the liberty of his will can procure him , which will prove condemnation rather then salvation . see ( i pray ) what giddinesse of spirit he betrayes , in laying such a crimination to our charge , whereunto himselfe is obnoxious in an equall degree , or in a higher degree then wee . for he hath confessed , that god of his meer pleasure , makes all infants guilty of eternall death ; now where appears the greater rigour ? on our side , who say , god inflicts eternall death on none , but such as are guilty of eternall death ? or rather on his side who saith , that god of his meer pleasure , makes men guilty of eternall death ? . the second is , that their inevitable destination to destruction , is under shew of the contrary : the devills as they are decreed to damnation , so they know it , but men even those that are appointed unto wrath , are yet fed up with hopes of salvation . is it possible that a man in his right witts should so miserably forget , and so shamefully carry himselfe ? doth not he himselfe maintain that all reprobates are from everlasting appoynted to eternall death ? it may be his meaning is , that no reprobate is appoynted to eternall death untill his death ; so making gods decrees temporall , and denying them to be eternall . but if this be his opinion , what arminian or remonstrant concurres with him in this ? but if reprobation and election be eternall ; how doe we feed reprobates up with the hope of salvation , more then he himselfe ? doth he think none but the elect are his heares ? ( for i doe not know whether he may run , and whether his shallow witts may carry him : whether to the dreaming of an universall election with huberus . ) and doth he not feed up all his hearers with hope of salvation as well as we ? and how doe wee feed them up with hopes of salvation ? doe we feed our hearers with any other hopes of salvation , then are builded upon faith and repentance , and finall perseverance therein ? and doe we not strike them as well with the terrours of god , and fears of damnation , in case they doe not believe in christ , or not break off their sinnes by repentance ? and doth not he the like ? or if he hath good grounds of hope , that all and every one that hears him , is or may be an elect of god , why may not we or any other minister , have as good grounds as he for such an hope ? but what doth he mean so superficially to presume , that we teach that men doe not perish , defectu misericordiae divinae , but defectu voluntatis propriae ? why should he so confidently presume , that we should teach such contradiction to the doctrine of augustine , who professeth expressely of many , that they perish non tam quia ipsi servari nolint , quam quia deus non vult . as is apparent of all infants that perish in originall sinne , out of the church of god : nay why should he presume of all us to be stricken with the same spirit either of infatuation or obstinacy , as to preach a doctrine so directly contrary to the holy doctrine of saint paul , professing , that god hath mercy on whom he will , &c. and to our saviour whose profession is , that therefore men heare not gods word because they are not of god. how otherwise could the damnation of the vessells of wrath , tend to the augmentation of the riches of gods glory towards the vessells of mercy ; namely , when they shall consider , that it was the meer grace of god to put so mercifull a difference between them and others ; regenerating them , and bestowing faith and repentance on them , the bestowing whereof he denyed to many thousand others , yet withall it is true that men therefore doe not believe and repent , because they will not : but if you aske quare nolunt , saith austin , imus in longum ; yet to this he accommodates his answer thus , men will not many things either quia latet , they know not the benefit of it , or quia non delectat , it is not pleasing to them . at ( saith he ) ut innotescat quod latebat , & suave fiat quod non delectabat , dei gratia est , quae humanas adjuvat voluntates : we doe not smother this truth of god , that we may delude men , we rather represent how all flesh are obnoxious and endangered unto god ; that all are borne in sinne , and therewithall children of wrath , and such as deserve to be made the generation of gods curse ; and that it is at his pleasure to shew mercy on any : only the word of god hath power to raise us from the dead , his voyce pierceth the graves , and makes dead lazarus heare it , and it is his course to call some at the first , some at the last hower of the day ; thus we desire to bring them acquainted first with the spirit of bondage , to make them feare , that so they may be prepared for the spirit of adoption , whereby they shall cry abba father : neither doe we despaire of any that are humbled with feare , we count rather their case most desperate , who are nothing moved hereby , or that perswade themselves they have power to believe when they will , and repent when they will ; we account no greater illusions of satan then these ; yet these abominable opinions may be fostered by some , and masked with a pretence of great piety forsooth , and a shew of holinesse , and a zeale of defending gods glory , and salving the honour of his mercy , justice and truth . . the third is , in their obligation to believe , and the aggravation of their punishment by not believing . the divells , because they must be damned , are not commanded to believe in christ , yet poore men must be tied to believe in christ , and their torments must be encreased if they believe not . i make no doubt but this author is as confident of his learned and judicious carriage in shaping this comparison , as that the fruit of adams sinne is the guilt of eternall death in all mankind . but none so bold ( we commonly say ) as blind bayard : and it seems either he knowes not , or considers not , that the first sinne of angells was unto them as death unto man ; that sinne placed them extra viam , and in termino incur abilis miseriae , as death only placeth wicked men in the like case . now we doe not say that god commands man after he is dead to believe in christ , any more then he commands obedience unto angells , since their case is become desperate . the divells are not commanded to believe or repent , because god doth not , nor never did purpose to damne any of them for want of faith , or of repentance , but for their first apostacy from god. but it is otherwise with man , for god doth not purpose to damne any of them but for sinne unrepented of . and therefore as good reason there is , why their damnation should be encreased , for want of repentance and acknowledging of gods truth , as why the devills should be damned for their first apostacy . if perhaps ( as it is likely enough ) this author to hold up his comparison , shall fly to god decree of reprobation , upon supposition whereof , it was impossible that men should either believe or repent ; i answere first , that in like sort upon supposition of gods foreknowledge , that they would neither believe nor repent , it followeth as necessarily , as it is necessary that gods knowledge should be infallible , that it was impossible they should believe and repent : and the like followeth as necessarily of the apostacy of angells , as of the infidelity and impenitency of man. and as men are pretended to harden themselves in vitious courses upon supposition of the unalterable nature of gods decree ; so austin gives instance in like manner of one that hardened himselfe upon pretence of gods infallible knowledge . de bono persever . cap. . fuit quidem in nostro monasterio , qui corripientibus fratribus , our quaedam nonfacienda faceret , & facienda non faceret , respondebat , quali●cunque nunc sim , talis ero , qualem me deus esse futurum praescivit . qui profecto & verum dic●hat , & hoc vero , non proficiebat in ●onum , sed vsque adeo profecit in malum , ut deserta monasterii societ●te , fieret canis reversus ad ●uum vonutum , & tamen adbuc qualis sit futurus , incertum est secondly i answer , that the like may be said of angells upon presupposition of gods decree to deny the grace of standing unto them , which austin professeth expressely , namely , that either in their creation minorem acceperunt amoris divini grattam ; or that afterwards , the reason why the one sort stood when the other fell was this , to wit , because they were amplius adjuti then their fellowes , and consequently the other minus adjuti . and as god gave grace to the elect angells , which he denyed to others : so it cannot be denied , but that from everlasting he decreed , both to bestow it upon the one , and deny it unto the other . now howsoever i know the arminian party cannot swallow this morsell ; yet by this it appears how supersiciary is that augmentation of the difference between men and angells , wherewith this author contents himselfe : yet notwithstanding it is not want of faith alone that condemneth any man ; by want of faith man is lest to the covenant of works , to stand or fall according to his own righteousnesse or unrighteousnesse : whereof if he faile , and withall despiseth the counsell or god offered him in his gospell , is there noe good reason , his condemnation should be the greater ? for certainly it is in the power of a naturall man , to afford as much faith to this , as to many a vile and fabulous relation , which is farre lesse credible by judgement naturall : we see both prophane persons and hypocrites , so farre to believe the gospell , as to embrace a formall profession thereof , and sometimes proceed so farre therein , as that 't is a hard matter to distinguish them from sincere professors : yet we say a true faith is only such as is infused into the heart of man , by the spirit of god in regeneration . now , what one of our divines can be represented , that ever was known to affirme , that the damnation of any man shall be encreased , because god did not regenerate him , and in regeneration inspire a divine faith into him ? as for our answer in generall to this argument considered in briefe , and this authors reply ; my refutation thereof i dispatcht in the first place . although he carrieth himselfe not fairely in relating the answer on our part ; in as much as therein he mixeth the consideration of justice divine , which is aliene from the present purpose , with the consideration of mercy divine , which alone is congruous ; that so while he puts off the plenary justification of his reply , to that which is aliene , he may seem to undertake a full justification of his reply to the whole . but i hope we shall be as able by gods assistance , to manifest his sinister carriage in the interpretation of gods justice , as we have done already , as touching his accommodation of gods mercy . discourse . sect . iii. this i divide into five subsections . subsect . i. it fights with the justice of god , &c. the lord , saith david , is righteous in all his waies , psal . . the judgements of the lord , saith solomon , are weight and measure , prov. . . that is , exact and without all exception . so just is god , that he offers the justice of his decrees and waies , to the triall of humane understanding . isai . . . judge i pray you , between me and my vineyard : and ezech. . . he is content to prove himselfe just by plain arguments , through the whole chapter ; are not my waies equall , and your waies unequall ? and he permitted abraham , when he was in his greatest humility , acknowledging himselfe to be but dust and ashes , to reason with him about the equity of his doings ; wilt thou slay the righteous with the wicked . shall not the judge of all the earth doe right ? gen. . , . and moses also , num. . . is suffered to argue gods justice in the same manner ; shall one man sinne , and wilt thou ●e ●●oth with all the congregation ▪ in a word ; so evidently just is god in all his proceedings , that many both good and bad , who have felt his justice have cleared god , and deepely charged themselves , witnesse , ezra , nehemiah , and daniell in their ninth chapters , and adonibezek , judges . ● . and the emperour mauricius , who having seen his children butchered , and waiting every minute for the bloudy stroake of death , brake out into these words ; justus es domine , & justum est judicium tuum . righteous art thou o lord , and just is thy judgement . with this inviolable justice of god , absolute reprobation ( of such especially as are commanded to believe and called to salvation ) cannot be reconciled . my reasons are these . . because it makes god to punish the righteous with the wicked , as it is taught the supralapsarian way , directly , as it is defended the sublapsarian way by good consequence . the sublapsarians present man to god in his decrees of reprobation considered without sinne and will have god to determine the infliction of unspeakable misery upon millions of men , without consideration of any evill in them originall or actuall ( as i have touched before ) and so they make him plainly to be a destroyer of the righteous . the sublapsarians ( for against their way have i tied my selfe to bend my reasons ) present man to god , considered indeed in originall sinne , which is a sinne ( so farre as it concernes adams posterity ) made ours only by gods order and appointment , and so in effect they say , . that god did lay upon every man a necessity of being borne in originall sinne . . that he hath determined for that sinne , to cast away the farre greater part of mankind for ever ; and so they make god to doe by two acts , the one accompanying the other , which the other say he did by one : and they will not stick , if they be put to it , to say as d. twisse doth , quod deus potest intercedente libera sua ●●stitutione , illud etiam absolute poterit , vel sine ali ●●● constitutione intercedent● . that is god may decree men to hell ( for that is the thing he speaks of ) for adams sinne , which is derived to them by the only constitution of god , he may as well doe it absolutely , without any such constitution . it is all one in substance , to decree the misery of an innocent man , and to purpose , that he shall be involved in a sinne , that so he may be brought to misery : neither of these decrees are just . non iustitia iusta dicetur ( saith fulgentius ) si puniendum reum non invenisse sed fecisse dicatur : major vero e●it iniustitia , si lapso deus retribuat poenam , quem stantem praedestinasse dicitur ad ruinam . twisse consideration . vvith us christians there is no doubt or question made of the truth of this , that god is righteous in all his waies : yea though he command abraham to sacrifice his sonne ; and though he caused not only achan to be stoned for his trespassing about the excommunicate thing , but his children also with him ; and though he visit the sinne of fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate him . and though in the drowning of the world , he caused infants to perish with their parents , some in their mothers wombe , some hanging on their mothers breasts : and so in the destruction of sodome and gomorrah with fire from heaven . and not so only , but the righteous god hath given us power over inferiour creatures , to weare them out in serving our turnes with them , yea and to knock them in the heads , to cut their throats , and strangle them as we think good : and we are no whit the more unrighteous in executing this power , which god hath given us upon them : yea in giving his own and holy sonne to be reviled , blaspheamed , betrayed , condemned , crucified , so to make his soule an offering for our sinnes . in all these waies the lord is righteous , and holy in all his works , solomon saith , prov. . . that a just weight and ballance are the lords , all the weights of the bagge are his worke . and the same solomon in the same chapter saith , v. . the lord hath made all things for himselfe , yea even the w●●ed against the day of evill . this revives in me the remembrance of a pretty story ; an odde fellow came to his neighbour to borrow a bushell of malt , saying , the mercifull is righteous and lendeth ; the other answered him in the same element saying , the ungodly borroweth and payeth not againe ; where is that saith the borrower ? where is yours saith the other ? why , saith he , the place i mentioned is in the psahne . so is mine too , saith the other . but proceed we along with him : whereas he saith gods judgements are without exception , that is untrue , for we find the apostle saint paul to take notice of exceptions made against the waies of god in some particular casts ; as when god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth : upon the proposall of this doctrine the apostle takes notice of such an exception as this . thou wilt say then , why doth he yet complaine , for who hath resisted his will : and the justification hereof , the apostle derives from no other consideration then this , that god is our creator , and we are his creatures : and that as the potter hath power over the clay of the same lump , to make one vessell to honour , and another to dishonour ; so hath god. o man ( saith paul ) who art thou that disputest with god , shall the thing formed , say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay ? and as the psalmist saith , that gods judgements are like a great deepe : so the apostle professeth , that his judgements are unsearcheable , and his waies past finding out . and in the common opinion this is delivered as touching the depth of gods counsell in reprobation and predestination ; and by the coherence of the words , with that which goes before it , appears to be spoken upon gods dispensing and denying grace to whom he will , and when he will ; as for example ; like as there was a time when god had a church in the world , without distinction of jewes and gentiles , so afterwards the providence of god was to display it selfe after three severall waies , the first was in gathering a church unto himselfe out of the world , from out of the posterity of abraham , these were called the jewes , in distinction from the gentiles , who for a long time had not obtained mercy , as the apostle speaks , rom. . . in as much as they believed not : and this dispensation of grace peculiar unto the jewes , with rejection of the gentiles , continued for about years . then god gathered a church among the gentiles , with rejection of the jewes , as the apostle signifies in the place before alleadged , saying , now you have obtained mercy through their unbeliefe . and this dispensation of gods grace peculiar unto the gentiles , hath continued now , for about years . and we believe a time shall come , for the calling of the jewes , and then the church of god shall consist both of jewes and gentiles , and the generall calling of them , as the apostle signifies , rom. . . if the fall of them be the riches of the world , and the diminishing of them the riches of the gentiles , how much more their fulnesse : and v. . if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world , what shall the receiving of them be but life from the dead : and v. . even so have these also now not believed , that through your ( gentiles ) mercy , they also ( the jewes ) might obtain mercy . for god hath concluded them all under unbeliefe , that he might have mercy on all . and hereupon it is , that the apostle breaks forth into admiration of this various providence of god , and different dispensation of his grace , saying , o the depth of the riches both of the wisdome and knowledge of god , how unsearcheable are his judgements , and his waies past finding out ? so that albeit the justice of god , be apparent to the understanding of man in some of his waies , yet not in all . neither doth it follow , that because god offers the justice of his courses , to the triall of humane understanding in some particulars , therefore he offers it to the same triall in all ; or that the understanding of man is able to comprehend it in all . not only carnall men cry out sometimes , where is the god of judgement ? mal. . . again , it is in vain to serve god , and what profit is it that we have kept his commandements , that we have walked humbly before the lord of hosts ? but even the children of wisdome , which are apt to justify her , are yet sometimes offended through weaknesse of faith , or want of judgement to comprehend the depth of gods providence , when they have considered the strange prosperity of the wicked , as job . . , , . and david , psal . . and jeremy , jer. . but to consider punctually the instances here particulated . first not one of them treats of gods decrees , though this author boldly claps then in amongst the waies of god : and these places throughout entreat not of the decrees themselves , but of the executions of gods decrees . as that isaiah . . judge i pray you between me and my vineyard ; yet this was meere grace and not justice ; but the laying of it wast , ( as there he threatneth ) for the unfruitfulnesse thereof , was just even in the conscience of man : so likewise the waies of god mentioned , ezech. . . are most equall , as namely in rewarding the obedient , and punishing the disobedient . in like sort there is no question to be made of gods decrees , concerning the rewarding the one , and punishing the other . and it is as true , that all this is nothing to the purpose . the main question being touching gods decree , to give the grace of obedience to one , and deny it unto others ; and of the execution hereof , in shewing mercy on whom he will , and hardning whom he will. no reason hereof can be devised by man without falling into manifest absurdity , or manifest heresy , or both . it is true god will not slay the righteous with the wicked : for the infants of wicked parents , untill god be pleased to regenerate them , are not to be accounted righteous , as being borne children of wrath . ephes . . . and therefore as in the conflagration of sodome , god took a course to save righteous lot , yet the infant children of the sodomites were consumed in the same fire with their parents . and in like manner i answere to that of moses . num. . . shall one man sinne , and wilt thou be angry with all the congregation ? you know though korah might be , and in likelihood he was the principall instigator yet dathan and abiram the sonnes of eliab , and on , the sonne of peleth , the sonnes of reuben joyned with him in the separation , and with these were joyned no lesse then captains of the assembly , and they famous in the congregation and men of renowne . nor did those alone perish in this their separation , but their families also . so that whereas when moses exhorted all the rest to depart from the tents of those wicked men , and thereupon dathan and abiram came out and stood in the doore of the tent , with their wives , and their sonnes , and their little children , all these were swallowed up , and went downe quick into the pit : and doe you think their little children were partners with them in this conspiracy ? and is not this judgement strange ? what can justify this , but the power of god , is lord over his creature , together with that originall corruption that is found in every one when they come into the world ? guesse , i pray , how happy this author is in his observations . this makes me remember , how at my first coming into this place , having to deale with certain brownists , being willed thereunto by our diocesan : an old man among the rest , was willing to conferre , so we would give him liberty to open his mind at full ; we willingly condescended unto him , and thereupon he began to alleadge places of scripture to justify his separation ; and wheresoever he found the word seperate , that he took up for an argument on his side ( like him that did set downe every ship that arrived in the harbour at athens , as one of his shipps ) and amongst the rest , this chapter of numbers afforded him one authority v. . where the lord speaks unto moses and aaron , saying , separate your selves from among this congregation ; whereunto i answered ; here indeed is a separation commanded , but from whom ? surely from those who rose up in rebellion against moses and aaron : now if you can prove us to be such , as rise up in rebellion against moses and aaron , then , in the name of god separate your selves from us : but if we are not the men that rise up in rebellion against moses and aaron , but you rather , then are not you commanded to separate from us , but we rather are commanded to separate from you ; yet we desire only , that you will not separate from us , and all shall be well . but to returne , what doth this author think ? was god in a passion , or something precipitate when he said , separate your selves from among this congregation , that i may consume them all at once , and did moses moderate him as being more-staid of the two ? i hope , if god had done as much as he offered to doe , his action had been iustifiable , as well in the one as in the other . certainly god should be just , even in turning his holy angells into nothing : and was just in exposing his holy sonne to tortures unexpressable upon the crosse ; other manner of proceedings , then were those which were used towards adonibezek and mauricius : they justified god from consideration of their former sinnes : no such course of justification could have place in annihilating angells , or had course in breaking the holy sonne of god for our iniquities . yet these instances are remarkable to observe therein , the felicity of this authors discourse . for first , was it god indeed that executed this judgement upon adonibezek ? now the text saith , the children of judah were they that dealt thus with him : did god then use their free wills , as his instruments for the execution of this judgement ? and how was this ? was it by working them hereunto , or only by concurring with them to this act , as foreseeing they would doe such an act , and thereupon decreeing to concurre to the producing of that act ? if god did work them hereunto , then can god work the will of any man to the doing of any free act freely : for who dares say that the children of israel did not as freely doe this as ought else ? but if god only concurred with them , to the doing of it modo vellent , and only , upon foresight that they would doe it , decreed to concurre to the doing of it , calls he this gods execution of judgement , depending meerely upon the pleasure of man foreseen by god ? as for the out-rage executed upon mauricius by phocas , this was no lesse then abominable villany , as committed by him . yet if god used him as an instrument herein , to execute his iudgement , then god by the sinfull act of one , can and doth punish the same of another , and consequently god must be the author of that sinfull act , whereby he punisheth another , and that by arminius his rule , which is this , omnis paena non permittitur sed infligitur a deo , & habet deum authorem . now i come to consider his accommodation of so impertinent a discourse . he saith absolute reprobation cannot be reconciled with this justice divine : we say there is no need at all of reconcilement : for what an insipid thing is it , to talke of a course of reconciling them , who were never at odds ? but he takes upon him to prove the repugnancy between them by three reasons . . the first whereof is this . it makes god to punish the righteous with the wicked , as it is taught the supralapsarian way directly . i confesse here is a direct somewhat , but whether a direct truth , or a direct lye , let the indifferent judge . he adventureth the proofe of it thus : the supralapsarians present man in his decree of reprobation considered without sinne : that is true i confesse , and it is as true that they present him considered without righteousnesse also ; and for good reason , because gods decree was eternall , and the creature at that time had no being & to consider a thing that hath no being , as having being , is not so much considerare , to consider , as errare or fingere , to erre or feign , this i have delivered in my vindiciae gratiae dei , and that in the first part of the first book . and this author pretends he hath read the second , yet he takes no course to refute this or ought else . but let him goe on . god ( he saith ) is made by them to determine the infliction of misery on men without consideration of sinne , either originall or actuall . first , let it be granted , yet herehence it followeth not , that he is made to be a destroyer of the righteous , or to punish the righteous with the wicked , which was that he affirmed . to determine punishment is one thing , to punish is another thing . certainly in the opinion of those he speaks of , god punisheth none but the wicked ; the very conscience of this author cannot but convict him of falshood in this crimination : for certainly by their opinion it doth not follow but that every one is found wicked , when god doth punish him . i may as well say in most absolute congruity , that by their opinion , god doth punish men , before they have any being by creation : for such they were indeed , and neither wicked nor righteous , when god passed the decree of reprobation upon them . but neither doe these divines maintain , that god did decree to damne any man but for sinne . nay , i goe farther : let the object of reprobation be men not yet created , and so considered , as i have proved it to be so , herehence it no way followes , that the decree of reprobration , is in any moment of reason or nature , before the consideration or citra considerationem peccati : and this also have i proved . this author boldly supposeth the contrary to be true , without any proofe , yet pretends he hath read my vindiciae gratiae dei farther off then where i have handled this . i say he pretends it , but i doe not know how he comes by this , it may be as capons come by chickens . hence he proceeds to the sublapsarians also , the whole synod of dort ( as 't is supposed ) our brittain divines , and all ; for against their way he hath tyed himselfe to bend his reasons , but so , that as the pope by his grants , doth never bind his own hands , for this author hath power to untye himselfe at pleasure , and to fly out against the supralapsarians also : as scanderbeg did against the two persian challengers ; but he was put thereunto , because they contrary to the compact , set both at once on him . but this champion like a tall fellow , and of a brave spirit , as if he should not have his hands full of a whole synod , le ts fly at all : they indeed , i mean the sublapsarians , consider mankind in originall sinne ; this he may well suppose : but he goes farther , and supposeth also , that this sinne is made ours only by gods order and appoyntment : for so , saith he , they in effect doe say . . that god did lay upon every man , a necessity of being borne in originall sinne . but in this also he speaks at pleasure , quoting no passage of any author . god may be said to lay upon man a necessity of eternall condemnation , dying in sinne unrepented of : yet no sober man will say , that god is the author of a mans condemnation , by gods only order and pleasure ; for this implies , that there is no meritorious cause of condemnation in man. god ( we say ) of meer pleasure , bestowes the grace of repentance on whom he will ; because he finds all equall in naturall corruption , and no difference in any , whereby to move god to bestow grace on him rather then on another . the case is not alike when god comes to bestow salvation and inflict damnation ; for some he finds dying in sinnes , others dying in the lord : yet we deny not but by power absolute , and secluding the determination of his own will , he could annihilate the righteous as well as the wicked . in like sort the whole course of nature depends meerely upon the pleasure of god : yet we say it is naturall for a leprous person , to beget a leprous person : and so as naturall it is , for that which is borne of the flesh to be flesh , though each depends upon the constitution of god. for albeit adam lost the spirit of god by his transgression , and all supernaturall graces wherewith he was endued ; yet like as god by regeneration , of his meere pleasure restored them afterwards to adam , and in due time doth restore them to every one of his elect : so in their very conception , if it pleased god , he could for christs sake infuse them ; notwithstanding the sinne of adam ; and consequently it is the free act of god , in refusing after this manner to deale with them . yet this nothing hinders , but that the propagation of spirituall corruption unto all adams posterity , may be as naturall as the propagation of any hereditary disease from the father to the child : and over and above , that it is not in the way of meer pleasure , but in the way of justice ; for the sinne of adam , which was the sinne of our nature , bereaving him of that originall righteousnesse wherein he was ●reated : and causing all mankind to be , . derived from him , whereas he could have otherwise provided , . and that from adam after his nature was corrupt with sinne , whereas he could have derived posterity from him before his fall , had it pleased him . and therefore i approve the second canon of the synod of dort , whereunto our english divines with many others subscribed : where they professe , that the corruption derived from adam to his posterity was , per vitiosae naturae propagationem justo dei iudicio derivata . this i take to be much different from saying , adams sinne is made ours by meer pleasure , or by imputation only . so the fifteenth article in the confession ecclesiarum belgicarum runs thus ; credimus adami in obedientiâ , peccatum originis in totum genus humanum diffusum esse : quod est totius naturae corruptio , & vitium haereditarium , quo & ipsi infantes in matris suae utero polluti sunt , quodque veluti radix omne peccatorum genus in homine producit ; ideoque ita foedum & execrabile est coram deo , ut ad generis humani condemnationem sufficiat . our brittain divines , in their second thesis upon the third and fourth articles , explicate themselves concerning the condition of originall sinne in this manner . lapsae voluntati inest non tantum peccandi possibilitas , sed etiam praeceps ad peccandum inclinatio ; nec aliter se potest res habere in homine corrupto , nondum per divinam justitiam restaurato : cùm ea sit natura voluntatis , ut nuda manere nequeat , sed ab uno , cui adhaeserat , objecto excidens , aliud quaerat , quod cupidè amplectatur , ideo per spontaneam defectionem habitualiter adversa a deo creatore , in creaturam effraeni impetu fertur , ac cum ea libidinose ac turpiter fornicatur , semper avida fruendi utendis , ac vetita moliendi ac patrandi . quid mirum ergo si talis voluntas sit diaboli maneipium ? i find indeed in corvinus such a profession of his , namely , that ex puro dei arbitrio , qui adami peccatum nobis imputare voluit , etiam in nos reatus derivatus est . and walaeus in answer unto him writes thus ; nec quinto illo ad rom. capite , ad quod nos hic corvinus remittit , quicquam tale dicitur aut innuitur , nempe quod ex mero dei arbittio pendeat haec primi peccati imputatio . . the second thing he puts upon our divines is , that god hath determined for that sinne , to cast away the farre greater part of mankind for ever : and so they make god to doe that by two acts , the one accompanying the other , which the other say he did by one . to which i answer , first , that if they say that god doth no more by two acts , then , the other say , god did by one , seeing i have proved that the other doe no way maintain that god doth punish the righteous with the wicked , which is his immodest and unshamefac't crimination ; no nor doe they maintain , that god determined to damne any but for sinne , and which is more then that , supposing humanum genus nondum conditum , to be the object of reprobation , yet doth it not follow , that in any moment of nature , the decree of damnation is before the consideration of sinne ; surely neither will it follow , by the sublapsarian doctrine , that god doth not decree to punish any man with damnation , but for those sinnes wherein he dyeth unrepented of ; much lesse that god doth punish the righteous with the wicked , which is the crimination of this author , proposed , i doubt , against his own conscience . t is true , some perish only in originall sinne , and that justly : for if they be borne children of wrath , is it strange if they dye children of wrath ? and is it not just with god to inflict eternall death on them , whom this author professeth to be guilty of eternall death ? only he saith , that god of his meer pleasure , makes them guilty of eternall death : that is his saying , not ours : for though we say originall sinne makes a man guilty of eternall death , by the free constitution of god ; yet we say not , that this free constitution of god was made of his meer pleasure , but justo dei judicio ▪ like as whosoever believes not shall be damned , here damnation is by the free constitution of god , made the portion of unbelievers : but dares this author inferre herehence , that it is not made so justo dei judicio ? indeed god gives grace according to the meere pleasure of his will : but no wise man will say , that he damnes men according to the meere pleasure of his will ; for this phrase implies , that there is no cause thereof on mans part : and indeed there is no cause on mans part , why god should give him grace , but there is cause enough on mans part , why god should inflict damnation on him , and yet this work of god though just , is never a whit the lesse free . so in damning for originall sinne only , though gods constitution hereof be just , yet is it never a whit the lesse free ; and though it be free , yet it is never a whit the lesse just : and like as damnation is inflicted on finall impenitents , sola dei constitutione , only by vertue of this constitution divine , whosoever repents not of his sinne shall be damned ; ( for it is apparent , god might have annihilated them , had it so pleased him ) yet is it never a whit the lesse just . in like sort it is by the sole constitution of god , that originall sinne is propagated to all men , christ excepted . for god could have derived mankind from another stock after adams fall : and as he doth regenerate men usually by his word , so he might if it pleased him , in their very conception give them his spirit , and those supernaturall graces , whereof adam was deprived by sinne : yet the propagation of sinne from adam to posterity . is never a whit the lesse just ; no nor any whit the lesse naturall ; like as the whole course of nature , depends upon the alone constitution of god. but when i say that god can without respect of sinne , inflict any torment upon his creature , this is delivered of power absolute . this power the lord did execute upon his own sonne : for what was his sinne ? was he not the spotlesse lamb of god ? yet what agonies did he suffer in the garden , what torments and terrours upon the crosse , when hee cryed out my god , my god , why hast thou forsaken mee ? but the like power he doth not execute on us , only he gives us authority to exercise the like power over other creatures : if the powder of an hare burnt alive in an oven , be found to be wholsome for us , he gives us leave thus to deale with him , and the like : yet have not these creatures sinned either against god , or against us . of this absolute power of god , i have discoursed more sparingly in the place cited by him , lib. . p. . de electione , digres . . if this author hath any mind to except against it , either in whole or in part , he might have tried his strength , and not contented himselfe , with shewing his teeth only . yet by his leave , whether those he speaks of , will concurre with me in this , it is more then i know , but to serve his turne at this present against those whom he hath tyed himselfe to oppose , as he professeth , he cares little what he avoucheth to save himselfe of farther pains . by the way let me take notice of one argument more then i dreamt of , for the maintenance of gods absolute power to inflict any pain upon a creature , and that of his meer pleasure , which this author ere he is aware suggests unto me ; and accordingly thus i dispute . if god can out of his meer pleasure make a man guilty of eternall death , surely it seems that of his meer pleasure he may inflict eternall death on any . but god can of his meer pleasure make a man guilty of eternall death , as i prove out of this author , who professeth that god out of his meer pleasure , made all mankind guilty of eternall death : now we commonly say , that ab actu ad potentiam valet argumentum . and see farther how miserably he overlasheth . the highest degree whereunto he can improve the harshnesse of our doctrine is this , that we should teach , that god doth decree the misery of an innocent man. now i pray consider , is it not as harsh , that god should decree the death , the agonics , the sorrowes , and tortures of an innocent man ? and is it not apparent , that god decreed the death and those unspeakable sorrowes of his innocent sonne ? yet we say not that god decreed any other mans death or damnation , but only for sinne . but it is all one in his opinion to say , god decrees the misery of an innocent man , and to purpose that he shall be involved in a sinne , that so he may be brought to misery . first , i say his opinion is no oracle , if it were , the world would soon grow wild . secondly , this sufficeth not to prove his crimination , which was this , that by our doctrine , we make god to punish the righteous with the wicked , not that we make god to doe that which is all one in substance . thirdly , his best arguments are his phrases , whereby he hopes to season others affections as well as his own ; as in saying god purposed man shall be involved in sinne : for if he speake of mankind , made guilty of the sinne of adam , he forgets his own tenet ; that god of his meer pleasure makes adams sinne the sinne of his posterity , and thereby of his meer pleasure makes them guilty of eternall death . and as touching our tenet herein , is there any such harshnesse in saying , that god causeth a leprous child to be borne of leprous parents ? but if he speak it in generall of any sinne , for which any man is damned , our doctrine is , that the sinnes which come to passe , must needs be permitted by god , and for god to permit any sinne , is to will that such a sinne shall come to passe by gods permission . arminius himselfe professing , that if god permit a man to will that which is evill , necesse est ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum . and the scripture is expresse as touching the foulest actions that ever were committed by man , to wit , in the most contumelious usages of the sonne of god , namely that both herod , and pontius pilate , together with the gentiles , and people of israell were gathered together , to doe what gods hand , and gods counsell had predetermined to be done . and when fulgentius saith , that god had been unjust , if he had predestinated stantem ad ruinam ; ad ruinam here is ad peccatum , and predestination in the fathers sense , is only eorum quae deus ipse facturus erat , which god himselfe meant to effect , not what he meant to suffer . that they took predestination in this sense , it appears by austin . lib. . de bono persever . c. . his words are these . in sua quae falli mutarique non potest praescientia opera sua futura disponere , illud omnino , nec aliud quicquam est praedestinare . marke it well , opera sua , his works , now sinne is no work of god , but a work of the creature only . i come to his second reason . discourse . subsect . ii. it is against gods justice , because it makes him to require faith in christ , of those to whom he hath in his absolute purpose denied both ability to believe , and a christ to believe in . that reprobates are bound to believe as well as others , it is the constant doctrine of divines ; amongst whom zanchius delivers it for a thesis : quisque ( saith he ) mandato dei tenctur credere se ad salutem aeternam in christo fuisse electum , maxime is qui fidem in christum profitetur . and in his explication of this thesis he saith , cum dicimus unumquemque teneri hoc credtre , neminem , ne reproios quidem , qui neque unquam credent , nec credere in christum possunt , excipimus ; & nisi credant , gravissime ommum peccant . every man , especially he that professeth christ , is bound to believe that he is chosen in christ to salvation ; every man without exception , even the reprobate himselfe ; and if he believe it not , he commits a most grievous sinne above all others . this that he saith , he proves by iohn . . the spirit shall convince the world of sinne , because they believe not in me : reprobates therefore are bound to believe . but now they cannot be justly bound to believe if they be absolute and inevitable reprobates , for three causes . . because it is gods will that they shall not believe ; and it appears to be so , because it is his peremptory will that they shall have no power to believe ; for its a ma●ime in logick , that qui vult aliquid in causâ , vult effectum ex ista causa necessario profluentem : no man will say that it is gods serious will , that such a man shall live , when it is his will , that he shall not have the concourse of his providence , and the act of preservation ▪ now will any say ( that forget not themselves ) that god doth unfainedly will that those men shall believe , whom he will not furnish with necessary power to believe . now if it be gods will , that absolute reprobates shall in no wise believe , they cannot in justice be tied to believe . for no man is bound to an act against gods peremptory will. . because it is impossible that they should believe , they want power to believe , and must want it still : god hath decreed they shall have none to their dving day : without power to believe , they can no more believe , then a man can see without an eye , and live without a soule . nemo obligatur ad impossibilia . to believe is absolutely impossible unto them ; and therefore in justice they can be tyed to believe no more then a man can be bound to fly like a bird , or to reach heaven with the top of his finger . . because they have no object of saith . credere ●ubet , d● fidei nulium objectum 〈◊〉 : this decree makes god to oblige men to believe , and to give them no christ to believe in , and to punish them as transgressors of the covenant of grace , when yet they have no more right unto it , or part in it , then the very devills . can god justiy bind men to believe a lye ? to believe that christ died for them , when it is no such matter ? if a man should command his servant to eate , and punish him for not eating , and in the mean time fully resolve that he shall have no meat to eate : would any reasonable man say that he were just in such a command , such a punishment ? change but the names , the case is the same . twisse consideration . in this discourse on the poynt of gods justice , this author seems to storme , and shewes great confidence of bearing downe all before him : but the more ridiculous will it prove in the issue , when it shall appeare , that all this wind beats down no corne . he takes his rise from a particular opinion of zanchy , whose opinion is , that all , even reprobates are bound to believe they are elected in christ unto salvation , though never they shall believe nor can believe . but doth this author himselfe concurre with zanchy in this opinion ? if he did , i presume it were upon some better ground then the authority of zanchy ; and in all likelihood we should have heard of those grounds : or doth himselfe believe , that that passage ioh. . . he shall convict the world of sinne , because they believed not in me , doth evince as much , or import as much as that is , whereunto zanchy drives it ? if he doth not concurre with zanchy in either of these , why should he tye us to the particular authority of zanchy ? must we be bound to stand to every interpretation of our divines , or every particular opinion of theirs , wherein perhaps they were singular ? secondly , suppose this opinion of zanchy be a truth , and suppose we concurre with him herein , will it from this opinion follow , that therefore even reprobates , have power to believe ? who seeth not that it is a flat contradiction to the antecedent ? for the doctrine of zanchy as here it is related , is this , that even reprobates , though they cannot believe , yet are they bound to believe . now will it herehence follow that therefore they have power to believe ? whereas it is manifestly supposed in the antecedent that they cannot believe . and to my understanding , the distinction of elect and reprobate in this case is most unseasonable . for to what end doe we preach unto our hearers , that all sorts of men are bound to believe , but this , to wit , that every one that heareth us , being privy to his condition , may understand that he , of what condition soever he be , which is supposed to be better known to him , then to the preacher , or at least as well , is bound to believe . but as for these different conditions of elect and reprobate , no man can be privy to the one , untill he doth believe ; nor to the other , untill finall perseverance in unbeliefe . and if i list , i could alleadge the opinion of another divine ( who is very peremptory in his way ) professing that the ministers calling upon us to believe , is no commandement at all , but like a kings gracious proclamation unto certain malifactors , who are all accused of high treason , giving them to understand , that in case they will voluntarily confesse their sinne , and accept of his gracious pardon offered them , he will most graciously pardon them . but if they will not , but stand rather to their triall , presuming to acquit themselves right well , and prove themselves to be true subjects , let them stand to the adventure , and issue of their tryall . and that thus the covenant of grace is offered to be received by them only , who feare to come , and dare not come to the tryall of the covenant of works . but i will not content my selfe , in putting off zanchy in this manner ; although by the way i cannot but professe , that were i of their opinion , who teach that god gives unto all and every one , when they come into the world , a certain grace , for the enlivening of their wills , whereby they are enabled to will any spirituall good , whereto they shall be excited ; i see no reason but that the way is open to everlasting life , as well by the covenant of works , as by the covenant of grace : for let perfect obedience be the spirituall good whereto they are excited , let them but will it , as it is supposed they can ; and then god will be ready to concurre to the doing of it , like as to the work in us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 credere , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 resipiscere , modò velimus , so also i should think , to work in us perfect obedience modò velimus . and in this case i pray consider , what need were there of faith in christ on their part , more then on the part of the holy angells ; certainly there would be no need of repentance . thirdly therefore consider we the constant doctrine of divines , not that reprobates are bound to believe , but that all that heare the gospell are bound to believe : but in what sense ? piscator saith , as i remember , that the thing , which all such are bound to believe , is the gospell ; according to that mar. . repent ye and believe the gospell . now to believe the gospell is one thing , the summe whereof is this , that jesus christ came into the world to save sinners ; but to believe in christ is another thing , which yet this author distinguisheth not , though it appears by the course of his argumentation , that he draws to this meaning , and that in a particular sense , which is this , to believe that christ died for them ; as appears expressely in the latter end of this section . and no marvaile if this author carry himselfe so confidently in this , being , as he is , armed with such confidence . but i am glad that in one place or other , he springs his meaning , that we may have the fairer flight at him , to pull down his pride , and sweep away his vain considence : though we deale upon the most plausible argument of the arminians , and which they think insoluble . my answer is ; first , look in what sense arminius saith christ died for us , in the same sense we may be held to say ( without prejudice to our tenet ) of absolute reprobation , that all who heare the gospell are bound to believe that christ died for them . for the meaning that arminius makes of christs dying for us , is this , christ dyed , for this end , that satisfaction being made for sinne , the lord now may pardon sinne , upon what condition he will ; which indeed is to dye for obtaining a possibility of the redemption of all , but for the actuall redemption of none at all . secondly , but i list not to content my selfe with this ; therefore i farther answer , by distinction of the phrase of dying for us , that we may not cheat our selves by the confounding of things that differ . to dye for us , or for all , is to dye for our benefit , or for the benefit of all : now these benefits are of a different nature , whereof some are bestowed upon man only conditionally ( though for christs sake ) and they are the pardon of sinne and salvation of the soule , and these god doth conferre only upon the condition of faith and repentance . now i am ready to professe , and that , i suppose , as out of the mouth of all our divines , that every one who hears the gospell ( without distinction between elect and reprobate ) is bound to believe that christ died for him , so farre as to procure both the pardon of his sinnes , and the salvation of his soule , in case he believe and repent . but there are other benefits , which christ by his obedience hath merited for us , namely , the benefit of faith and repentance . for it pleased the father , that in him should all fulnesse dwell , col. . and he hath blessed us with all spirituall blessings in christ , that is , for christs sake : and god works in us , that which is pleasing in his sight through jesus christ , and therefore seeing nothing is more pleasing in gods sight on our part , then faith and repentance , even these also , i should think , god works in us through jesus christ : and the apostle praies in the behalfe of the ephesians , for peace , and faith , and love from god the father , and the lord jesus christ , that is , as i interpret it , from god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , as an efficient cause , and from the lord jesus christ , god and man , as a meritorious cause thereof . now i demand whether this author can say truly , that t is the constant opinion of our divines , that all who heare the gospell , whether elect or reprobate , are bound to believe , that christ dyed to procure them faith and repentance . nay doth any arminian at this day believe this , or can he name any arminian that doth avouch this ? nay doth himselfe believe this ? if he doth not , if he cannot shew any arminian that doth , with what face can he charge this opinion upon us , as if we should extend the obligation to believe , much farther then the arminians doe , whereas usually they criminate us , for not extending it so farre as we should . and indeed there is a main difference between these benefits and the former : for as touching the former , namely pardon of sinne and salvation , god doth not use to conferre them , but conditionally , to wit , upon the condition of faith and repentance . but as for faith and repentance , doth god conferre them conditionally also ? if so , then let them make known to us , what that condition is on mans part , and whatsoever it be , let them look unto it , how they can avoid the making of grace , to wit , the grace of faith and repentance , to be given according unto works . but if these graces are conferred absolutely , and christ dyed for all to this end , that faith and repentance should be conferred absolutely upon all , then it followeth manifestly herehence , that all must believe and repent , and consequently all must be saved . so that not only election ( as huberus that renegate faigned ) must be universall , but salvation also . thus have i given in my answer distinctly , to that which he delivered most confusedly . fourthly i come to the scanning of the particular opinion of zanchy , namely , that every one that hears the gospell , whether elect or reprobate ( for so i suppose it proceeds , to wit , only of them , who heare the gospell , though this author , takes no consideration of that neither , but hand-over-head , laies about him like a mad man ) is bound to believe , that he is elect in christ ; and will trye whether i cannot reduce that opinion of his also , to a faire interpretation . and here first i observe , zanchy is not charged to maintain , that every hearer of the gospell , is bound to believe , that he is elect in christ unto faith and repentance , but only to salvation : that puts me in good heart , that zanchy & i shall shake hands of fellowship in the end , and part good friends . secondly , i distinguish between absolute-election unto salvation , and election unto salvation-absolute . the first only removes all cause on mans part of election , the latter removes all cause on mans part of salvation . by cause of salvation i mean only a disposing cause , such as faith , repentance , and good works are , as whereby ( to expresse it in the apostles phrase ) we are made meet partakers of the inheritance of the saints of light . now albeit zanchy maintains as we doe , that all the elect are absolutely elected unto salvation , there being no cause on mans part of his election , as we have learned : yet neither zanchy nor we doe maintain that god doth elect any unto salvation absolute , that is , to bring him to salvation , without any disposing of him thereunto by faith and repentance . now to accommodate that opinion of zanchy , i say it may have a good sense , to say that every hearer is bound to believe , both that christ dyed to procure salvation for him , in case he doe believe , and that god ordained that he should be saved , in case he doe believe ; where beliefe is made the condition only of salvation , not of the divine ordination ; and the confusion of these by the arminians , doth usually make them confident and insolent , and in a word , magnas tragoedias excitare . but take a way the confusion of things that differ , their combes are cut , their locks are shorne , and they are but as another man. now having shewed in what sense every hearer , is bound to believe that christ died for him , and in what sense not , let us consider of what worth this authors arguments are , breathing nothing but smoak and fire , i will not say , like the great potan , but like fell dragon ; but i nothing doubt we shall pare his nailes , and make him calme enough ere we have done with him , so that a little child shall be able enough to lead him . now that they cannot be justly bound to believe , if they be absolute reprobates he takes upon him to prove by three reasons . . the first is , because it is gods will that they shall not believe , because it is his peremptory will , that they shall have no power to believe . i answere , it is indeed the will of gods decree , that is , he hath decreed not to give any reprobate a justifying faith , but hence it followeth not , that therefore they cannot believe thus farre the contents of the gospell , namely , that both christ hath merited , and god hath ordained , that as many as doe believe shall be saved . for this , as i take it , is not usually accounted by our divines a justifying faith , but rather it comes within the compasse of such a faith , as is commonly counted faith historicall . secondly i answer , it followeth not , that because god hath decreed to deny them the grace of faith , therefore they are not bound to believe ; which i prove by scripture : for was not pharaoh bound to let israel goe , when moses was sent to him from the lord , to command him in the name of the lord , to let israel goe ? yet the scripture plainly teacheth us , that the lord told moses that he would harden pharaohs heart , and that he should not let israel goe . what i pray is now become of his reason , compared with the light of scripture ? and what have we to doe to enquire into gods counsells , as whether he hath decreed to give us grace or no ? is it not enough to bind us to obedience , for god to command this or that unto us ? did abraham enquire in his thoughts , whether it were his purpose yea or no , that isaack should be sacrificed ? nothing lesse ; but upon the lords command , he forthwith addresseth himselfe to the worke , rising early in the morning , and going forward in the lords businesse . then again , we find by common experience , that naturall men are too to confident rather , and presumptuous of their power , then diffident , and distrustfull ; dicere solet humana superbia ( saith austin ) si scissem fecissem : it were better for them if they did acknowledge their impotency , and by what means this corruption of theirs is brought upon them , that would bring them nearer to the kingdome of god. but if i have a debtor , whom i know to be a bankerupt , but he knowes it not , but having many bagges of brasse or copper pieces , which he takes to be gold , conceits himselfe able enough to pay all his debts , and more too : shall i be said to commit any indecent thing , by urging him to pay that he oweth ? this argument is as old as pelagius : but what was austin his answer ? in mandato cognosce quid debeas habere , in corruptione cognosce t uo te vitio non habere , in oratione cognosce unde possis habere . . lastly , if god cannot justly command , and by command bind man to obey , in case he hath no power to obey ; in like sort god cannot justly complaine of their disobedience , who being hardned by god , cannot obey him : and indeed as this author argueth against the justice of gods commands in this case , so the apostle brings in one arguing the injustice of gods complaints in the like case . for having delivered this doctrine , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth : forthwith he brings in one tumultuating against it in this manner . thou wilt say then why doth he yet complaine , for who hath resisted his will ? and if any man be not ashamed to argue as he did ( saith austin ) let us not be ashamed to answer as the apostle did : and how was that ? surely only thus : o man who art thou that disputest with god ? shall the thing formed , say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessell unto honour , and another unto dishonour ? and albeit this , i trow , should be sufficient to satisfy a christian , yet we observe farther , how this author confounds impotency morall , which consisteth in the corruption of mans powers naturall , and impotency naturall , which consisteth in bereaving him of power naturall . the lord tells us by his prophet jeremy , that like as a blackamore cannot change his skinne , nor a leopard his spotts , no more can they doe good , that are accustomed unto evill . now if a man taken in stealth shall plead thus before a judge , my lord , i beseech you have compassion upon me , for i have so long time inured my hands to pilfering , that now i cannot forbeare it : will this be accepted as a good plea to save him from the gallowes . again , it is observed that men are naturally prone to runne upon the committing of things forbidden them ; gens humana ruit per vetitum nefas : & nitimur in vetitum : yet this is no just excuse . lastly ; as for faith , it is well known that divines distinguish between fides acquisita , and fides infusa ; that we may call a faith naturally acquired , which is found in carnall persons , whether prophane or hypocriticall : and this is a faith inspired by gods spirit . the object of each is all one , and a man may suffer martyrdome for the one as well as for the other , which manifesteth the pertinacious adherence thereunto . and it appears that all professions have had their martyrs ; ucali fartax a calabrian borne , endured the gallies fourteen years , rather then he would turne turke ; yet at length he became a turke , and only in spleen to be revenged on a turke , who had given him a boxe on the eare , and became a great man amongst them : and at the famous battell of lepanto , he alone maintained his squadron entire , and beat the christians . but to returne , albeit it be not in the power of nature to believe fide infusâ , yet is it in the power of nature to believe the gospell fide acquisitâ , which depends partly upon a mans education , and partly upon reason , considering the credibility of the christian way , by light of naturall observations , above all other waies in the world. and when men refuse to embrace the gospell , not so much because of the credibility of it , but because it is not congruous to their naturall affections , as our saviour tells the jewes , light came into the world , and men loved darknesse rather then light , because their deeds are evill : is there any reason why their condemnation should be any whit the easier for this ? neither have i ever read , or heard it taught by any , that men shall be damned for not believing fide infusâ , which is as much as to say , because god hath not regenerated them ; but either because they have refused to believe , or else if they have embraced the gospell , for not living answerable thereunto , which also is in their power , quoad exteriorem vitae emendationem , though it be not in their power to regenerate their wills , and change their hearts , any more then it is to illuminate their minds : yet i never read that any mans damnation , was any whit the more encreased for not performing these acts . thus farre i have been content to expatiate in the way of reasonable discourse , to meet with this disputer in his own element ; though every sober christian ( i should think ) should rest satisfied with the word of god , which both teacheth us that the naturall man perceiveth not the things of god , neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned , & that all men are found dead in trespasses and sinnes , before the spirit of regeneration comes , that men cannot believe , that they cannot repent , that they that are in the flesh cannot please god ; and that a man hardned cannot obey ; and yet withall , that god doth command faith , repentance , and obedience , and complaines of default in performance . and if any man charge such courses as unjust , what is the apostles course in meeting with such imputations , but either to shew , that the word attributes such a course to god , and therefore it cannot be unjust , as rom. . . what shall we say then , is there unrighteousnesse with god ? god forbid , for he saith to moses , i will have compassion on him , on whom i will have compassion , and i will shew mercy on him , to whom i will shew mecy : or to fly to the consideration of the lords dominion over all , as creator over his creatures . i come to his second reason . . and that is , because it is impossible that they should believe , they want power to believe , and must want it still . god hath decreed they shall have none to their dying day . i answer : this argument is the very same with the former , not so much as differently dr●st , or crambe bis cocta , and therefore my former answer will serve in every particular . yet adde this also , this impossibility is only upon supposition of gods decree , which nothing hinders the liberty of the creature , in doing freely what he doth , and freely leaving undone what he doth not , as appears manifestly by divers instances . for upon supposition of gods decree , that not a bone of christ should be broken , it was impossible they should be broken : yet who doubts , but that the souldiers did as freely abstaine from the breaking of christs bones , as they did freely break the others bones ? and the text notes the reason why they brake not christs bones , to wit , because they saw he was dead already . in like sort upon supposition of gods decree , that josiah by name should burne the prophets bones upon the altar : cyrus by name should build him a citty , and let goe his captives ; it was impossible that it should be otherwise : yet i think no wise man doubts but that josiah did the one , and cyrus the other , as freely as they did any thing in their lives . and therefore this author doth miserably overlash in the element of his philosophy , and rationall discourse , in saying , a man in justice can be tyed to believe no more , then a man can be bound to fly like a bird , or to reach heaven with the top of his finger . he might as well say , that because god had determined that the souldiers should not breake christs bones , therefore they had no more power to breake christs bones , then they had power to fly like a bird , or to reach heaven with the top of their finger . certainly there is no man but by grace may be enabled to believe : but never was any man known to affirme , that by grace a man may be enabled to fly like a bird , or to reach heaven with the top of his finger . if this be not miserably to over-reach , i know not what is . as for his rule , nemo obligatur ad impossibile , judge i pray of the truth of it by this ; what if a man by a vitious conversation , hath made it as impossible for him to doe good , as it is impossible for a blackemore to change his skinne , or a leopard his spots ; shall he therefore be obliged no longer to doe good ? and as by our own sinnes committed by our persons , so by the sinne of adam , which was the sinne of our nature , upon the whole nature of man was this impotency brought , as the scriptures teach , and none that i know were known in the dayes of austin , to deny , but the plagians . i come to the third . . now this depends upon a notorious confusion of things that differ . for i have shewed , how the lord hath given them a sufficient object of that faith , which he requires of them , as touching christs dyeing for them ; namily , to believe that christ hath merited the pardon of sinne , and salvation for as many as believe in him , in such sort , that if all , and every one throughout the world should believe in him ; they should be saved by him . and this depends meerely upon the sufficiency of christs merits , and undoubtedly it was the will of god , that christs merits should be of such a value , as was sufficient for the salvation of all , and every one : otherwise it were not true , that if all and every one should believe in christ , they should be saved by the vertue of christ merits . but as for any obligation to believe that christ died to procure faith and repentance for all and every one ; i never yet heard or read of any arminian , that he believed it . nay in their apologia remonstrantium , or censura censurae , they plainly professe , that christ died not at all to merit faith , and regeneration for any . in like sort it is not credible to me , that any arminian believes , that christ dyed for any so , as to procure pardon of sinne and salvation absolutely for him , whether he believe or no , provided that he live to be capable of faith and repentance , and to enjoy the gospell , and the preaching of christ crucified . and like as it is no lye , but truth , that christ dyed to procure salvation , to as many as believe in him , so in being obliged to believe this , or punished for not believing it , is neither to be obliged to the believing of a lye , nor punished for not believing it . therefore it is false to say there is no such matter . for look in what sense they are bound to believe that christ died for them , in the same sense it is most true , that christ died for them ; they are bound to believe that christ dyed to procure salvation for every one that believeth : and it is most true , that in like manner , christ hath procured the salvation of every one that believes : so that here is a truth to feed upon , and they that oppose it , are strengthned in their vaine confidence by a meere mist of confusion , which they raise unto themselves and others , that so they may set the better face upon that lye , which they hold in their right hand , wherewith they are so enamoured that they had rather forsake their own mercies , then forgoe it . and so i come to the third and last reason in generall drawn from gods justice . discourse . subsect . iii. the third reason why absolute reprobation infringeth gods justice is , because it will have him to punish men for the omission of an act , which is made impossible unto them by his own decree , not by that decree alone whereby he determined to give them no power to believe , having lost it , but by that decree also , by which he purposeth that we should partake with adam in his sinne , and be stripped of all that supernaturall power , which we had by gods free grant , bestowed upon us in adam before the fall : these are my reasons which move me to think , that this absolute decree is repugnant to gods justice . twisse consideration . i have already shewed how gods decree and impossibility arising upon supposition thereof , doth no way prejudice the liberty of the creature , as by pregnant passages of the scripture is made plaine unto us . and as for the other decree here spoken of ; first it is untrue which he supposeth , that , god by a speciall decree decreed all mankind to be made partakers of adams sinne , and therein to be stripped of all supernaturall power , which before the had by gods free grant . for if it were just with god to decree , that adams nature , upon his sinning , should be bereaved of all supernaturall power , which formerly he enjoyed , this and this alone should suffice to bereave all his posterity of supernaturall power to doe that which is good . for seeing all his posterity did receive their natures from adam after his fall , they must therewithall necessarily receive their natures from him , bereaved of all supernaturall power unto that which is good , untill such time , as god be pleased of his free grace to restore it by regeneration . . is it not good reason that god , for adams sinne , should bereave us of all supernaturall power in adam , as of his meere grace he did adorne us all with supernaturall power in adam ? . notwithstanding this depravation of supernaturall power in adam , yet we acknowledge that neverthelesse , whatsoever sinne a man commits , he committeth freely : and the schoole hath taught it before us , aquin. p. . q. . art . . ad . . licet aliquis non possit gratiam adipisci qui reprobatur a deo , tamen quòd in hoc peccatum vel illud labatur , ex ejus libero arbitrio contingit , undè & merito sibi imputatur in culpam . discourse . subsect . iv. two things are usually answered . first , that there are many things delivered for truths in scripture , ( among which this is one ) which are above the reach of humane capacity , and therefore are we quietly to submit , as to other revealed truths , so to this , and not to be so bold as to examine the justice of this decree , or any thing else in it , by our shallow and erring understandings . but this answer takes not away the arguments , for i have these things to reply . . that though there be diverse things revealed in gods word , which are above reason , viz. that there are three persons and one god ; and that christ was borne of a virgin ; that the world was made of nothing , that the dead shall be raised , &c. to all which we must captivate our understandings , and yeeld a firme assent propter authoritatem dicentis : yet there is nothing revealed therein , abhorring from , and odious to sound and right reason ; for it cannot be , that the most excellent gifts of god , faith and reason , nature and scripture should overthrow one another : and that the wise god , who is the fountain of all right reason , should discover any thing to us in his word , or enjoyne us any thing to be believed , which is vere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , truly and properly unreasonable . our faith is an act of our service of god , and gods service is cultus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a reasonable service . rom. . . and gods word is also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , milk reasonable and without guile ; they are so called , no doubt , to shew that there is a sweet harmony between faith and reason , things revealed , and mens understandings : though there be a disproportion , yet there is no contradiction between them . . that therefore all those doctrines which are adverse and repugnant to understandings , purged from prejudice and false principles , are not to be taken for doctrines of scripture , but devices of men corrupting scripture by false glosses and interpretations , and consequently , that this absolute reprobation of so many millions of miserable men , out of gods only will and pleasure , because it is most irkesome to the eares and understandings of all sorts of men best and worst , that stand indifferent to the entertainment of any truths , that may appeare to be so , is no doctrine of the text , no part of the word of god. . that howbeit some things in scripture , which are peculiar to the gospell , are above our understandings , and must without hesitation be believed , yet there are many things there , which have their foundation in nature , and may be apprehended by the light of nature , and demonstrated by reason ; and among these things the justice of gods waies is one , as i have shewed before out of isaiah . . and ezek. . and it is but a meer evasion , when the absolute decree is proved by sound reasons to be unjust , to say , reason is blind , and must not be judge , but the scripture only : for god offers the justice of his waies to the tryall of reason . twisse consideration . this author seems to swell , in the conceit of his rationall performances , as if never any fly sitting upon a cart-wheele in a sommers day had made such a dust as he had made . and fashioning to himselfe a victorious conquest , as if all his adversaries were but pigmies to this anakim , glad to runne into corners , or into acorn-cups to hide themselves there . for his reasons like some hobgoblins , doe so fright them , more then all the spirits that stand by the naked man in the book of moones : and therefore all the help they have , if we believe this pyrgopolinices is to charme them , by saying , that many things are delivered in scripture , which are above the reach of humane capacity , among which this is one , &c. and i take this to be sound . for otherwise , why should the doctrine of godlinesse , be called a mystery of godlinesse . and the schooles teach , that fides est assensus inevidens : and cajetan who was no gras-hopper , as great an anakim as this author , or his familiar spirit takes himselfe to be , spares not to professe , that about the reconciling of gods predestination with the liberty of mans will ( a poynt that comes so neere to this in hand as a poynt can doe ) there are many distinctions devised by the learned , but yet he saith of them , that they did not qutetare intellectum , and therefore that he did captivare suum in obsequium fidei : and alvarez , no dwarfe neither in scholasticall , that is , rationall divinity , addeth that herein cajetan piissimè & doctissimè loquitur . but who they are , that have taken notice , of those arguments here specified , and at the sight of them were so ston'd , as at the sight of some medusas head , and thereupon came to this course of incantation or pacification , he doth very wisely conceale , and like a man of authority , puts it upon us to take it upon his word . yet i doe not remember that i have rested my selfe upon any such course , though the holy apostle thinks it sufficient to cleare any course of god from injustice , by proving that scripture doth attribute such a course unto god , as i have shewed out of rom. . . it is true , the spirit which this author breaths , is the right pelagian spirit , according to the pelagians in bradwardines daies : for their vaunt was , that they could not be refuted by any reason philosophicall , but only by certain naked authorities theologicall , ( as i have heard of a schollar , sometimes challenged by a friend and kinsman of his , for being given ( as he heard ) to the arminian tenet , made a ready answer with protestation , that that opinion was very plausible , but that s t paul was against it . ) and therefore bradwardine undertakes to confute them by reason philosophicall ; so farre off was he from being cowed with their vain boasts and braggs . his words are these ; sicut antiqui pelagiani ventoso nomine secularium scientiarum inflati consistorium theologicum contemnentes philosophicum flagitabant ; ita & moderni . audivi namque quosdam advocatos pelagii , licet multum provectos in sacris apicibus ; affirmantes pelagium nusquam potuisse convinci per naturalem & philosophicam rationem ; sed vix arguebatur utcunque , per quasdam authoritates theologicas , maxime autem per authoritatem ecclesiae , quae satrapis non placebat : quapr opter per rationes & authoritates philosophicas ipsos disposui reformare . and for my part , though i affect not in those poynts , to goe beyond scripture and christian reason , yet i am content to be led whethersoever my adversary thinks good to lead me : and as a schollar of my acquaintance being left handed , and accordingly casting his cloake over the right shoulder , was answered by a cittizen observing it , when he enquired his way , saying , when you shall come to such a place , you must turne on your right hand , meaning indeed , on the left ; so likewise i am nothing afraid of this mans philosophy , nor his abettors neither , nothing doubting , but as many as i find opposing this divine truth , which we maintain , their best dexterity , in philosophicall and rationall discourse , will prove but a left handed philosophy : and in this very field of argumentation , i purpose to lay upon him ere we part . but let us first consider the things that he replies . . he saith , there is nothing in scripture abhorring from sound and right reason , he addes , odious too : as if his philosophy had taught him , that it is the part of reason to hate , and not rather of affections . this rule when we were initiates in the university , we were soon acquainted with : yet this author to vent his fulnesse , casts himselfe upon an unnecessary proofe thereof , and the mischiefe is , that his proofe maketh his cause worse then it was before . for having formerly made the comparison between the word of god , and sound and right reason ; in his reason he states the comparison between faith and reason , nature and scripture , not distinguishing between nature corrupt , and uncorrupt , reason corrupt and uncorrupt . our service of god is reasonable , in as much as it is performed by reasonable creatures , and the rule thereof is not naturall reason , but meerely the word of god. in whom was naturall reason more eminent , then in philosophers ? yet were they wont to be called haereticorum patriarchae : and the apostle hath professe of all such , that the things of god seem foolishnesse unto them , cor. . . now i pray consider soberly , how reasonable such courses are judged to be , which are accounted foolishnesse , and what a sweet harmony there is between things revealed , and mens understandings ; and whether reasonable , and foolish , be not a plain contradiction ; as well as wise , and foolish . if we enjoy a more pure and refined reason then they , let us give illumination divine the glory of it : and say with him in job , verily there is a spirit in man , but the illumination of the almighty giveth understanding . and seeing the word of god , is the only means of divine illumination , let us thank gods word for all . i come to the second materiall of his reply . . and that is this , that all those doctrine which are ad●erse and repugnant to understandings purged from prejudice and false principles , are not to be taken for doctrines of scripture , but devices of men , corrupting scripture by false glosses and interpretations . no marvaile that when men oppose the misteries of godlinesse , they fall upon the mysteries of iniquity . here we have a rule given to try whether a doctrine proposed , be to be taken for a doctrine of scripture yea or no ? and mark it well , i beseech you , and i desire that every sober man will mark it well , and judge whether it deserve not to be numbred amongst the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the depths of satan : and withall judge whether the pretended author of this discourse , can in any probability be the author of this , and whether it becomes not rather some old beaten souldier in arminianisme , that takes upon him to be the master and dictator of sentences . about regula fidei , the rule of faith , there is much question between us and papists ; the meaning whereof is , what that is whereinto must be made the last resolution of our faith ? we say it is the word of god contained in the books of the old testament and the new ; papists say , it is the voyce of the church . this author deviseth a new way , which i think was never heard off before , except among the socinians , namely , that it is the judgement of understandings purged from prejudice and false principles . for albeit the doctrine of faith , we judge to be contained no where , but in gods word , yet notwithstanding as touching the meaning of it , nothing must be taken to be the true meaning of scripture , how fairely soever grounded thereupon in shew , unlesse withall it seem nothing repugnant to understandings purged from prejudice and false principles . into this therefore must be made the last resolution of our faith . again , where shall we meet with these judges as they are here described , to wit , as having their understandings purged from prejudice and false principles : undoubtedly , like as the church of rome , when they have once brought the matter hitherto , that the last resolution of faith , must be made into the voyce of the church , are confident enough , that when the question is made of the voyce of the church , where that is to be found , they shall undoubtedly be able to carry it for the church of rome : so these arminians , or socinians rather , when they have once brought the matter to this passe , that the last resolution of our faith must be made into the judgement of mens understandings purged from prejudice and false principles ; and that the question beginneth to be made of understandings thus purified , where they are to be found , they will be so favourable to themselves , as to conceive , that such understandings are to be found no where , but amongst the nation of the arminians ; or at least among such , whose judgements are naturally inclined towards their tenets . but is this a decent course to rest in the judgement of any mans understanding , whereas the soundnes of his understanding is not , nor cannot be discerned , but by the strength of his argument : and again , considering the judgement of man is miserably corrupted in such sort , as that the things of god seem foolishnesse unto them , is it not much fitter that we should judge of every mans understanding by gods word , which cannot erre , rather then judge of the meaning of the word by the understanding of man ? let any man use his understanding in opening and interpreting the word of god unto us , and clearing the meaning thereof unto us as much as he can , by reason , by argument , by demonstration , but still let it be indifferent for any to judge , in what congruity his interpretation stands with the text it selfe , and no mans judgement to be a rule of faith unto others . before he goes off from this , he gives another description of those , whose judgements must be the rule of the right interpretation of scripture ; to wit , such as stand indifferent to the entertainment of any truths . now this seems to me to be as poore as the former , or rather much poorer . for this indifferency as i take it , is in respect of affections ; now albeit a man may be thus disposed , in respect of his affections , yet he may be of a very weak judgement ; as for example , i have heard of a good man , that was sometimes wavering about the poynt of ceremonies , yet very willing to receive information ; and therefore conferres with both sides , as well such as held them lawfull in the use , as with those that held them unlawfull , and still was carried every way with the force of their reasons , who conferred with him for the present . then again , suppose the indifferent were most fit to judge , where shall we find those indifferent persons , or who shall give rules , and what rules , according whereto to proceed in this our inquisition ? again , who are to be presupposed in likelihood , to be the more indifferent , then such as have not hitherto been versed in these controversies , and is it fit , that they who have been many years versed in them , should stand to the judgement of those who are little or nothing exercised therein ? lastly is the creature fit to judge of the soveraignty of his creator , or being conceived of the freedome of his own will , to judge how farre it is reasonable , god should have power over his will and no farther ? when the apostle calls upon the corinthians , to judge whether that which he wrote unto them , were the commandements of god or no , whom doth he call unto this office ? doth he call any other but such as are spirituall ? if there be any amongst you that is a prophet , or spirituall , let him know that these things are the commandements of god. cor. . he doth not say , if there be any amongst you , that hath his understanding purged from prejudice , and false principles , let him know that these things which i write unto you , are the commandements of god. and the same apostle tells us , that the things of god are spiritually to be discerned . cor. . . yet it is remarkable , that he appeals to the judgement not of the best only , but the worst also in this : but something qualified i confesse , to wit , provided that they stand indifferent to the entertainment of any truths . marke it well , of any truths : and who are these ? not possessed with the entertainment of any truths , but indifferent to the entertainment of them , i say who are these ? the regenerate or unregenerate ? here i am at a stand , not knowing which way to take . but it may be this is spoken only in reference to our doctrine of absolute reprobation . but of whatsoever it be spoken , let him give instance in either or in both ; it seems he is indifferent to have it take place either way , for he proposed it of best and worst . but why should he presuppose an unregenerate man to be indifferent , to the entertainment of any truth ? whereas the apostle professeth of a naturall man , that he cannot know the things of god , and he gives the reason of it , because they are spiritually discerned ; and formerly said that they were foolishnesse unto him . yet i willingly confesse , the doctrine of absolute reprobation , is very harsh to the judgement and affections of carnall men ; and such as we had never embraced , had it not been for the word of god , which plainly professeth , that election is not of ( good ) works ; and that by such an argument , as whereby it is manifest , . that election is as well proved not to be of faith , as not of works . . that reprobation is not of evill works ; yet the harshnesse hereof , is nothing like so much appearing in its proper colours , as upon their deciphering and blazing of it , who are as zealous for making election to be upon foresight of faith and works ( though this latter member , they are loath to have the world take notice of ) as they are opposite to the absolutenesse of reprobation . now whereas before i have shewed , that there is a great deale of difference between absolute election unto salvation , and election unto salvation absolute : and that not one of our divines doth maintain , that god doth elect men unto salvation absolute , but to obtain salvation upon their faith and repentance , and finall perseverance therein : in like sort there is as great difference between absolute reprobation unto damnation , and reprobation unto damnation absolute . and if none of our divines doe maintain , that god ordains any man of ripe years to obtain salvation , otherwise then upon their faith and repentance , and finall perseverance : how much lesse doe they maintain , that god ordains any man unto damnation , otherwise then for his sinne and finall perseverance therein without repentance ? whereas these enemies of the grace of god , as saint austin sometimes called the pelagians , to make their cause more plausible to the affections or carnall men carry the matter so , as if we maintained that god ordained them to be damned absolutely , and for the meer pleasure of god , concealing the only cause for which god ordained , that they should be damned , namely , for the wilfull transgression of gods holy commandements . only the giving and denying of the grace of regeneration , the giving of faith and repentance , for the curing of that naturall infidelity and impenitency that is found in all ; and the leaving it uncured by denying faith and repentance : this indeed we maintain to be absolute , according to that of saint paul , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . rom. . . now , dare any of them deny faith and repentance to be the gift of god ? they doe not , they dare not ; only of late they have come thus farre , as to deny that christ merited faith and regeneration for any . secondly , inquire whether god gives faith and repentance to some , and denyes it to others of his meere will and pleasure , or because he finds some good works in the one , which he finds not in the other . here is the criticall poynt , we defend no other absolutenesse of election and reprobation , but such as depends wholly on this , namely , that god finding men equall in corruption , hath compassion on some , giving them faith and repentance , which he denies unto others : all other absolutenesse of election and reprobation , besides that which we undertake by cleare demonstration to deduce herehence , we utterly renounce . neither can our adversaries be so grossely ignorant , as not to perceive that this is the criticall poynt of these controversies , the resolution of the truths wherein , will set an end to all contention about election and reprobation . why then doe they not deale plainly , and try their strength in this , whereby they should carry themselves fairely and ingenuously , and deale above board . for here alone is that absolutenesse of god in execution , which we maintaine ; but here they are not so prone to shew their hornes : this argument is not so fit for the raising of clamours and tragedies . and hating the truth of god as touching his soveraignty over his creatures , to have compassion on whom he will , and to harden whom he will ; as also the prerogatives of his grace , to work us effectually to that which is pleasing in his fight , and that in whom he will also : yet not daring plainly to deliver their mind in this , as wherein they are found most absurd , and encumbred with shamefull contradictions ; therefore by the back dore as it were , they hope to discredit it , and by opposing the absolutenesse of reprobation , to supplant and undermine the doctrine of gods free grace . and not content with this , they miserably corrupt our doctrine also , in the poynt of absolute reprobation , drawing it to this ; as if not reprobation only , but damnation also were made absolute by us : and that god damned men not so much in the way of justice for their sinne , as of his own meere pleasure . at length to come to the third particular of his reply . . and that is this , that howbeit some things in scripture , which are peculiar to the gospell , are above our understandings , and must without hesitation be believed : yet many things there , have their foundation in nature , and may be apprehended by the light of nature ; and amongst these , the justice of gods waies is one , as hath been shewed . isai . . and ezek. . to this i answer , that the waies of god mentioned isai . . . is only in his expecting fruits after so great pains that he had taken , in husbanding his vineyard . and ezek. . consists only in rendring unto men according to their waies . neither doth it follow , that because the justice of god doth plainly appeare in these particulars , therefore it doth appeare as cleerely , or comprehensively in all others . is there no difference between the waies of god there mentioned , and the waies of gods justice mentioned in other place ; as namely , in causing the sonnes of achan to be stoned to death with achan himselfe , for his sacriledge : in drowning the old world , not sparing the very infants and sucklings : and for their conspiracy against moses and aaron , causing the earth to swallow up not dathan and abiram only , but their wives and children , and all that they had ? so in consuming sodom and gomorrah with fire . and as for the punishing of of sinne , this is no peculiar truth of the gospell . i had thought the gospell , in the proper nature thereof , had been above reason altogether , and no way capable of demonstration . and as for the justice of god , must not this suppose him to be a free agent ? or was this known to aristotle by all the light of nature whereunto he attained ? we that believe him to be a free agent , and withall the creator of all , are ready to demonstrate , that it is in his power to doe what he will with his creature , and that not only to annihilate him , though never so holy , but to inflict what paine soever upon him , yea even the torment of hell fire ; which medina acknowledgeth to have been communem omnium theologorum sententiam , viz. that this he can doe , ut dominus vitae & mortis ; as i have shewed in my vindiciae graciae dei , and by variety of arguments proved it , more then once in two severall digressions , which this author pretends to have seen , yet answereth not one of them . and as for justice divine toward the creature ( whereupon this author doth with such confidence discourse , ) both vasquez and suarez jesuits , in other poynts concerning gods justice , are miserably at odds , yet joyntly concurre in this , that all iustice divine , doth presuppose the free determination of gods will : now , because i find this gentleman , so conceited of the purity of his rationall faculty , and the power thereof , as to require that all interpretation of scripture , should veyle bonnet to the soveraignty thereof ; i purpose to try his ability this way , for the expediting of certain arguments about the absolutenesse of gods decrees in generall , and particularly of the decree of reprobation . therefore to combate with him on his own ground , and in his own element , i dispute thus . . no temporall thing can be the cause of that which is eternall , but the sinnes of men are all temporall , whereas reprobation is eternall , therefore the sinnes of men cannot be the cause of reprobation . if it be said , that sinne is not made the cause of reprobation , but as it exsists in gods foresight , and so not so much sinne as the prescience of sinne is the cause of reprobation . i reply , that this device cannot stand , viz. that the prescience of sinne should be the cause of reprobation , and that for this reason ; the cause of reprobation whereof we enquire , is of the nature of a meritorious cause , but the prescience of god can no way be said to be a meritorious cause thereof . science and prescience are causes of gods works in the kind of an efficient physicall , not in the kind of an efficient morall , such as are all causes meritorious . if it be farther said , that not so much the foresight of sin , as ( to speak more properly ) sinne foreseen is the cause of reprobation : i reply against it in this manner ; sinne foreseen doth suppose gods decree to permit sinne , and consequently if sinne foreseene be before reprobation , then also the decree of permitting sinne is before the decree of reprobation , that is , the decree of damning for sinne . but this cannot be , as i endeavour to prove by two reasons . the first is this ; there is no order in intentions , but between the intention of the end and the intention of the means , and the order is this , that the intention of the end is before the intention of the means . therefore if the decree of permitting sinne be before the decree of damning for sinne , the decree of permitting sinne must be the intention of the end , and the decree of damning for sinne must be the intention of the meanes . but this is notoriously untrue : for it is apparent that damnation tends not to the permission of sinne , as the end thereof ; for if it did then men were damned to this end , that they might be permitted to sinne . but far more likely it is , that sinne should be permitted to this end , that a man might be damned , which yet by no means doe i a vouch ; other reasons i have , to shew the vanity of this argumentation . i rather professe , that permssion of sinne and damnation are not subordinate as end & means , but coordinate , both being means tending joyntly to a farther end , which , under correction from understandings purged from prejudice and false principles , i take to be the manifestation of gods glory in the way of justice vindicative . . my second reason is , if permission of sinne be first in intention and then damnation , it followes that permission of sinne should be last in execution ; but this is most absurd , namely , that a man should be first damned , and then suffered to sinne . . my second principall argument is this ; reprobation , as it signifies gods decree , is the act of gods will ; now the act of gods will is the very will of god , and the will of god is gods essence , and like as there can be no cause of gods essence , so there can be no cause of gods will , or of the act thereof . upon some such arguments as these , aquinas disputes , that the predestination of christ , cannot be the cause of our predestination ; adding that they are one act in god. and when he comes to the resolution of the question , he grants all as touching actum volentis , that the one cannot be the cause of the other ; but only quoad praedestinationis terminum , which is grace and glory , or the things predestinated . christ is the cause of them , but not of our predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating . and i think i may be bold to presume , that christs merits are of as great force to be the cause , why god should elect man unto salvation ; as mans sinnes are of force , to be the cause why god should reprobate him unto damnation . the same aquinas ( a tall fellow as touching scolasticall argumentation ) hath professed that no man hath been so mad as to say that merits are the cause of predestination , quoad actum praedestinantis ; and why , but because there can be no cause on mans part of the will of god quoad actum volentis . now reprobation is well knowne to be the will of god as well as election ; and therefore no cause can there be on mans part thereof quoad actum reprobantis . and it is well knowne , there is a predestination unto death , as well as unto life , and consequently t is as mad a thing in his judgement to maintaine , that merits are the cause there of quoad actum praedestinantis god by efficacious grace could breake off any mans infidelity if it pleased him , that is , by affording him such a motion unto faith , as he foresaw would be yeelded unto : this is easily proved by the evident confession of arminius formerly specified . now , why doth god so order it , as to move some in such a manner , as he foresees they will believe ; others in such a māner as he foresees they will not believe ? but because his purpose is to manifest the glory of his grace in the salvation of the one , and the glory of his justice in the damnation of the other . herein i appeale to the judgement and conscience of every reasonable creature that understands it , in spight of all prejudice and false principles to corrupt him . . in saying sinne foreseen is the cause of gods decree of damnation , they presuppose a prescience of sinne , as of a thing future , without all ground . for nothing can be foreknown as future , unlesse it be future : now these disputers presuppose a futurition of sinne , and that from eternity , without all ground . for consider , no sinne is future in its own nature , for in its own nature it is meerely possible and indifferent , as well not to be future , as to become future ; and therefore it cannot passe out of the condition of a thing meerely possible , into the condition of a thing future without a cause . now what cause doe these men devise of the futurition of sinne ? extra deum , nothing can be the cause thereof : for this passage of things out of the condition of things possible , into the condition of things future , was from everlasting , for from everlasting they were future ; otherwise , god could not have known them from everlasting , and consequently the cause of this passage , must be acknowledged to have been from everlasting , and consequently nothing without god could be the cause of it , seeing nothing without god was from everlasting . therefore the cause hereof must be found intra deum , within god ; then either the will of god , which these men doe utterly disclaime , or the knowledge of god ; but that is confessed to presuppose things future , rather then to make them so ; or the essence of god ; now that may be considered either as working necessarily , ( and if in that manner it were the cause of things future , then all such things should become future by necessity of nature , which to say is atheisticall ) or as working freely ; and this is to grant , that the will of god is the cause why every thing meerely possible in its own nature doth passe from everlasting into the condition of a thing future , if so be it were future at all . and indeed seeing no other cause can be pitched upon , this free will of god must be acknowledged to be the cause of it : and consequently the reason why every thing becomes future is , because god hath determined it shall come to passe ; but with this difference , all good things god hath determined shall come to passe by his effection , all evill things god hath determined shall come to passe by his permission . and the scripture naturally affords plentifull testimony to confirme this , without forcing it to interpretations congruous hereunto , upon presumptuous grounds that these arguments proceed from understandings purged from prejudice and false principles . . my fifth argument is this . if sinne be the cause of reprobation , that is , of the decree of damnation , then either by necessity of nature , or by the constitution of god ; not by necessity of nature , as all , that hitherto i have known confesse . but i say neither can it be by the free constitution of god ; for mark what a notorious absurdity followeth hence , and that unavoidably , namely , that god did ordaine , that upon foresight of sinne , he would ordaine them to damnation ; marke it well , god did ordaine that he would ordaine , or god did decree that he would decree . in which words gods eternall decree is made the object of gods decree . whereas it is well known that the objects of gods decrees are meerely things temporall , and cannot be things eternall : we truly say god did decree to create the world , to preserve the world , to redeeme us , call us , justify us , sanctify and save us , but it cannot be truly said , that god did decree to decree , or ordaine to ordaine : for to decree is the act of gods will , and therefore it cannot be the object of the act of gods will. yet these arguments i am not so enamoured with , as to force the interpretations of scripture to such a sense , as is sutable hereunto , presuming of the purity of my understanding , as purged from prejudice and false principles . i could willingly content my selfe with observation of the apostles discourse , in arguing to this effect ; before the children were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said the elder shall serve the younger : therefore the purpose of god according to election stands not of works . in like manner may i discourse : before the children were borne or had done good or evill , it was said the elder shall serve the younger : therefore the purpose of god concerning reprobation stands not of works . and like as hence it is inferred , that therefore election stands not of good works ; so therehence may i inferre , that therefore reprobation stands not of evill works . . if sinne foreseen be the cause meritorious of reprobation , then faith and repentance and good workes are the disposing causes unto election . for therefore evill works foreseen are made the meritorious cause of reprobation , because evill works exsistent , are the meritorious cause of damnation . and if this be true , then also because faith and repentance and good workes , are the disposing causes unto salvation , then by the same force of reason , faith , repentance , and good workes foreseen , must be the disposing cause unto election ; but faith , repentance , and good workes foreseen , are not the disposing causes unto election ; as i prove thus . . if they were then the purpose of god according to election , should be of faith , repentance , and good works , which is expressely denyed by the apostle , as touching the last part ; and may as evidently be proved to be denied by him in effect of the other parts also , by the same force of argumentation which he useth : as for example , from this anticedent of the apostles , before the children were borne , or had done good or evill , it no more evidently followeth that therefore the purpose of god according to election is not of workes , than it followeth that the same purpose of god according to election is not of faith , nor of repentance : for before they were borne they were no more capable of faith , or of repentance , than of any other good works . and undoubtedly faith and repentance are as good works , as any other . . if god doth absolutely work faith in some , and not in others according to the meer pleasure of his will , then it cannot be said , that faith foreseen , is the cause of any mans election . for in this case faith is rather the means of salvation , then salvation a means of faith ; and consequently , the intention of salvation rather precedes the intention of faith , than the intention of faith can be said to precede the intention of salvation . and to this the scripture accords , acts . as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life , making ordination to everlasting life the cause why men believed ; answerable hereunto is that acts . last . god added daily to the church such as should be saved : and that of paul to titus , according to the faith of gods elect : so that according to pauls phrase fides est electorum , but according to the arminians doctrine the inverse hereof is a more proper and naturall predication , as to say , electio est fidelium . but god doth absolutely work faith in some men , according to the meer pleasure of his will , denying the same grace to others : which i prove ; . by scripture . rom. . . god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth , compared with rom. . . yee in times past have not believed , but now have obtained mercy ; where it appears by the antithesis , that to find mercy is to believe , that is , to obtain the grace of faith at the hands of god , in saint pauls phrase . . by cleare reason : for if it be not the meer pleasure of gods will , that is the cause hereof , then the cause hereof must be some good workes , which he finds in some , and not in others ; whence it manifestly followeth , that god giveth grace according unto works , which in the phrase of the ancients is according to merits : and for years together , this hath been reputed in the church of god meere pelagianisme . . i further demand , what that good worke is , whereupon god workes it in one , when he refuseth to worke it in another ? here the answer i find given is this , that god doth work in man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle credere modo velit . now of the absurdity hereof , i appeale to the very light of nature , and let all the books that ever were written on this argument be searched , and let it be enquired , whether ever any did expresse themselves in the manner of so palpable and grosse absurdity : as wherein the act of willing is made the condition of it selfe : whence it followeth evidently , that it must be both before it selfe , and after it selfe ; for the condition must allwaies exsist before the thing conditionated . yet they are driven upon these rocks of absurdities in spight of their teeth : so shamefull is the issue of their discourses , who , in hatred of gods truth revealed in gods word , and in a proud conceit of their own performances in the way of argumentation , dare prescribe rules to all others , how to carry themselves in the interpretation of scriptures ; as namely , to be so warie , as that they doe not deliver any thing , repugnant to understandings purged from prejudice and false principles : as if the word of god supposed them that are admitted to the studying thereof , to have their understandings already purged from prejudice and false principles : not that it is given by god for this very end , namely , to purge our understandings : for what is the illumination or opening of the eyes of the mind , other than the purging of the understanding from prejudice and false principles : and how miserable these aeriall disputers doe betray themselves , and manifest how they are transported with prejudice , and corrupted not with false only , but grosse principles , by this it may appeare in part . i come to the consideration of his reply to the second answer , which here he represents . discourse . subsect . v. secondly it is answered , that god is not bound to restore men power to believe , because they once had it , and have lost it through their own fault ; as a master is not bound to renew his servants stock , if he have wasted it by his bad husbandry . but this answer doth yet satisfy me as little as the former : for i grant that god is simply and absolutely bound to no man , he is agens liberrimum , a most free dispenser of his own favours , both what he will , and to whom he will ; but yet he is conditionally ; determinavit seipsum , he hath bound himselfe to give supernaturall abilities to men by three things . . first decernendo , the almighty is eternally subject to his own decree , or else he would be mutable ; and therefore what gifts soever he hath decreed to men , he is bound to give them by vertue of his decree . . secondly promittendo . we use to say promise is debt , it is justice to performe what it was free to promise ; and whosoever he be that promiseth , and payeth not , is guilty of a trespasse ( witnesse ananias and saphira ) and unworthy of the kingdome of heaven . psal . . . if therefore god hath made a promise of any gift or grace to men , this promise binds him to performance . . thirdly legem ferendo . by giving men a law to keepe , which without supernaturall power , they cannot keep any more than they can eat a rock . by such a law the almighty lawgiver binds himselfe to his creatures , to give them such power as may enable them to keep that law , or else he becomes the true and proper cause of the transgression of it . we shall find god evermore giving strength , when he giveth a command : when he commanded the creatures to encrease and multiply , he gave them a multiplying vertue . when christ bid the lame man arise , take up his bed , and walke , he puts into his limbs an ability of walking : when adam had a spirituall law given him to obey , which without spirituall strength he could not , god gave him strength answerable to the law , as all divines agree , consenting to that noted speech of austin , that adam had posse non cadere , though he never had non posse cadere ; a power and possibility , though not a necessity of continuing in obedience . that i may bring this home to my purpose . i say that god is bound to restore unto men , power to believe , supposing these waies that follow . . that he hath vouchsafed to enter into a new covenant of peace with men , when he needed not . . that in that covenant he requireth obedience at mens hands , even at theirs that perish . . that he promiseth eternall life to every man , if he obey and keep the covenant . . that he punisheth the disobedient with everlasting death . these particulars supposed , the most free god who is necessarily bound to none , is engaged to give ability of believing to men ; nor can he justly without this gift , punish the disobedient any more , then a magistrate having put out a mans eyes for an offence , can command this man with justice to read a book , and because he reads not , put him to death : or then a master ( that i may returne the simile in the answer ) when he hath taken away from his servant the stock , which he hath misimployed , can afterward exact of him a just imployment of the same stock , and punish him because he imployeth it not . i conclude therefore , that the absolute and inevitable reprobation of such men as are called to believe in christ , and punished if thev believe not , is utterly repugnant to the justice of god , and therefore cannot be a part of his word . twisse consideration . this second answer is in like manner , delivered at pleasure , without quoting the author of it : and no marvaile if this author desires to have the making of his own bed , that he may lye the more softly . yet touching the similitude here mentioned let it be stated aright : a master trusts his servant with a stock , not to receive it from him againe , though the stock be of a moveable nature , but to receive from him in lieu thereof , some yearely emolument . in this case let him say what he can against it : now here his discourse is for the most part at large , shewing how god , though a most free agent , may oblige himselfe to his creature . . decremendo ; whether hereby god doth bind himselfe to his creature ( which hath no being at all when gods decrees are made ) or to himselfe rather , it is little or nothing materiall to the present : what soever it be that god decrees , we are sure that must come to passe , provided that we doe not make his decrees of a revocable nature with some ; but as touching any use of gods obliging himselfe this way unto his creature , this author is content to say nothing at all , in the accomodation . . promittendo . and we willingly grant , that what god promiseth he never failes to performe , after that manner as he hath promised : as namely in case he hath promised that as many as believe in christ shall be saved , we nothing doubt , but if all the world should believe in christ , all the world should be saved . but whether any devise a promise concerning the giving of faith & repentance unto all , & every one ; and that whether conditionately or absolutely this author is content to say just nothing . as likewise , neither doth he take upon him to plead any promise of god , to give to all and every one power to believe or power to repent . . legem ferendo . this alone of all the three serves his turne , and therefore here he doth expatiate , much more than in the former . and herehence he inferres , that god binds himselfe to give supernaturall power , to keep the law he commands , provided the law be such , as without supernaturall power , he can no more keepe it , than eat a rock . now this accommodated to adam , had need of explication , seeing we read of no other law given unto him , than of abstaining from a certain fruit : which i doe not deliver as if i doubted , but that to the performance of obedience herein , a supernaturall power was requisite ; but only to signify , that it were worth the labour to give a congruous explication of it . though of adam i nothing doubt but he was indued with supernaturall power , to performe other manner of duties than this . and yet again , this denomination of power supernaturall , had need also of explication ; for though that power which adam had given him in creation , be supernaturall to us , yet our divines usually conceive it as naturall unto adam , received together with his nature , and such as should have been naturall unto us all , had adam continued in his originall integrity . but i am content to let that passe ; only whereas he saith , that by such a law the allmighty law-giver binds himselfe to his creatuees , to give them such power as may enable them to keepe that law ; i think rather if any obligation had place in this case , it were rather to maintaine the power already given them , than to give it . for every law-giver rather presupposeth ability of obedience in them , to whom he gives a law ; then first gives a law and then gives ability to performe obedience thereunto . and certainly god first created man after his owne image , before he gave him any law to be a rule of his obedience unto his creatour . so i take the multiplying vertue , was given to his creatures in their creation , before he said encrease and multiply : in the curing of the lame man , his word indeed was a word of power , like as when he said let there be light , and there was light . for though it goe under the forme of a command , yet it was not so properly a command ( which is to command obedience ) as the going forth of vertuous efficacy to create : like as that also ezek. . o ye dry bones heare the voyce of the lord. and undoubtedly the strength of obedience given unto adam preceded gods command , for his abstaining from the fruit of the tree , in the midst of the garden . he had in his creation given him , posse non cadere , not non posse cadere , the event manifested as much : and it is as true according to the same austin , that god gave him posse stare si vellet , not velle quod potuit . but that god is bound to restore , any such power unto mankind , which they have wilfully lost , is boldly avouched , but let us consider how scholastically it is proved . . the first reason hereof is , because god hath vouchsafed to enter into a new covenant of peace with men , when he needed not . to this i answer , that god hath entred into a new covenant with men , is an indefinite proposition , as touching the persons included in this covenant , and being not in a necessary matter but contingent , this covenant proceeding meerely from the good pleasure of god , it hath no more force than to signify , that god hath vouchsafed to enter into a new covenant of peace with some men , which we wilingly grant but not with all , neither doth this proposition , enforce any such meaning . and that god hath not entred into a new covenant with all , i prove by these reasons . . as many as are under the covenant of grace , sinne shall have no dominion over them . rom. . . sinne shall not have the dominion over you , for you are not under the law but under grace . but sinne hath the dominion over too many , even over the most part of the world , as we find by lamentable experience , therefore too many , even the most part of the world , are not comprised under the covenant of grace . . the covenant of grace , doth covenant on gods part , not only to give salvation upon condition of faith and repentance , but for christs sake to renew mens natures also , and to give them faith and repentance . as appears by diverse passages of scripture : jer. . . behold the dayes come saith the lord , that i will make a new covenant with the house of israel , and with the house of judah . v. . not according to the covenant , that i made with their fathers , when i took them by the hand , to bring them out of the land of egypt , the which my covenant they brake , though i was a father unto them . but this shall be the covenant that i will make with the house of israel , after those daies saith the lord , i will put my law in their inward parts , and write it in their hearts , and i will be their god , and they shall be my people . ezek. . . a new heart also will i give you , and a new spirit will i put within you , and i will take away the stony heart out of your bodies , and will give you an heart of flesh , and i will put my spirit within you , and cause you to walk in my statutes , and ye shall keep my judgements and doe them . ezek. . . i will surely rule you with a mighty hand , &c. . and will cause you to passe under the rod , and bring you into the bond of the covenant . isai . . . i have seen his waies , and will heale him . hos . . . i will heale their rebellions , i will love them freely . and that faith it selfe and repentance , is the gift of god , who hath taken upon him by his covenant of grace , to be our lord and our god to sanctify us , is manifest by diverse pregnant passages of holy scriptures . . i come to his second reason . and in that covenant he requires obedience at mens hands , even at theirs that perish . god in his covenant of grace requires obedience unto salvation , but of his free grace undertakes to regenerate them , and work them to obedience ; but how ? agreeable unto their rationall natures , that is by admonition , instruction , exhortation , that is to work faith and repentance , by exhorting and perswading them unto repentance : and because this he performes by his ministers , to whom he hath not revealed who they are , whom he hath chosen , therefore he commands them to preach indifferently unto all , perswade all , exhort all , unto faith and repentance , whereof also he makes this use even towards reprobates , that whereas they are naturally confident of their ability , to doe as much as any other , and as austin saith dicere solet humana superbia si scissem , fecissem . the lord by his ministry takes from them this excuse , so that unto all that heare is this truth delivered , whosoever believeth and repenteth shall be saved : and thereupon every one is exhorted in the name of the lord to believe and repent . but god resolveth to worke faith and repentance in none , but those whom he hath chosen , according to that acts . . as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life . and withall the doctrine delivered in the gospell is such , and so confirmed , as may justly make them inexcusable that doe not believe : when it shall appeare , that many a vile legend they are apt to believe , and in the mean time despise gods holy oracles , by divine authority , many waies confirmed unto them . . it is most true , eternall life is promised to every on that obeyeth and keeps covenant with god ; but god over and above worketh some unto obedience , unto faith and repentance , bestowing these gratious giftes on them , even on whom he will , when he hardeneth others even whom he will. rom. . . . he punisheth the disobedient with eternall death ; true : but acording unto what covenant ? not according unto the covenant of grace , that is only a covenant for salvation , but according unto the covenant of the law , the covenant of works . whereas herehence this author inferres , that the most free god is ingaged to give ability of believing unto men : he may as well inferre , that he is engaged to give ability unto men to the keeping of his law , and what need was there of christs coming into the world ? seeing by his coming into the world , we have gained no better condition by the arminian tenet , than to be saved if we will ; and if men have ability to to keepe the law even by the law , they may be saved if they will : and it will follow as well , that god , without giving this ability to keepe the law , cannot justly punish the transgressours of it ; as that god without giving men ability to believe cannot punish men for not believing : no more than a magistrate having put out a mans eyes for an offence , can command this man with justice to read a booke , and because he reads not , put him to death . but this is a very vile simile , and stands in no tolerable proportion to that whereunto it is resembled . for the man thus bereaved of his eyes hath a will to read , and consequently it is no fault for not reading : for all sinne is in the will. but it is not so , in not obeying either law or gospell . if a man had a will to obey and believe but he could not , in such a case it were unreasonable he should be punished . but in the case of disobedience unto god , we speake of , all the fault is in the will voluntarily and wilfully , they neither will obey the one , nor the other : like as they that have accustomed themselves to doe evill , can not doe good , as a blackemoore cannot change his skinne . yet with this difference , that man is never a whit the more excusable , or lesse punishable for not doing that which is good ; not so the blackemore , for not changing his skinne . but such is the shamefull issue of them that confound impotency morall with impotency naturall , as if there were no difference . as wild is the comparison following , of the masters exacting from his servant a just employment of that stock , which he hath taken from him . an evill servant may have a will to play the good husband in imploying his masters stock , where he pleased to intrust him with it : but though he hath a will to be faithful and thrifty , yet without matter to worke upon , he cannot exercise this fidelity of his to his masters behoofe . shew the like will in a carnall man to believe if he could , and if god bereave him of power , in such a case , then conclude the unreasonablenesse of gods courses herein . but if the master gave him a stock to employ , upon a resonable rent to be payd him yearly for certaine yeares : if so be the servant wast the stock , shall it not be lawfull for the master neverthelesse to require his debt ? and bid him pay that he owes him ? this is the case we speake of . in adam we all have sinned , saith the apostle , and thereby have wasted that stock of grace which god had given us , and so disabled our selves to performe that duty we owe to god : what therefore ? shall not god call upon us to pay our debts , because we are become bankrupts ? especially considering the naturall man is proud enough of his abilities to performe any thing that is good . and as for ability to believe , is there not a kind of faith performed by prophane persons , by hypocrites , who concurre with the best in the profession of the gospell ? nay , is there not a secret kind of hypocrisie , as when a man thinks his heart is upright towards god , when indeed it is not ? otherwise what should move saint paul to call upon the corinthians to examine themselves whether they were in the faith , saying , know you not your selves how that christ is in you , except ye be reprobates ? car. . . it is true there is a faith infused by the spirit of god in regeneration ; but who ever said that any man was damned , because he doth not believe with such a faith ? as much as to say , that non-regeneration is the meritorious cause of damnation . now how well he hath proved that our doctrine in the poynt of absolute reprobation is repugnant to gods justice , let the indifferent judge . discourse . sect . iv. which i divide into three subsections . subsect . i. the third attribute which it oppugneth , is the truth of god. god is a god of truth , deut. . . truth it selfe . ioh. . . so called because he is the fountain of truth , and the perfection of truth , without the least mixture of false-hood ; the strength of israell cannot lye . sam. . . never could any man justly charge him with dissembling ; let god be true and every man a lyar , ( saith the apostle ) that he might be justified in his sayings , and overcome when he is judged . rom. . . that is , men may lye , ( for all men are lyars ) but god cannot lye , ( for god is true : ) if any man should goe about to challenge him of untruth , his challenge would easily appeare to be a calumny . the truth of god , like a glorious sunne , will break through all those clouds of accusations which seek to obscure and hide it . simile gaudet simili ; god loves such as are of a true heart . psal . . and hath an hypocrite in utter detestation , and therefore he must needs be true himselfe . no man ( for ought i know ) doubts of it . but by this decree is god made untrue , and hypocriticall in his dealing with all men , and in all matters that concerne their eternall estate ; particularly , in his commands , in his offers of grace and glory , in his threats , in his passionate wishes and desires of mens chiefest good , and in his expostulations and commiserations also . . in his commands ; for by this doctrine god commands those men to repent and believe , whom he secretly purposeth shall never believe . now whom god commands to believe and repent , those he outwardly willes should believe and repent . for by his commandements he signifies his will and pleasure , and he must inwardly and heartily will it too , or else he dissembles : for words if they be true , are an interpretation of the mind , when they are not , are meere impostures , and simulations . . in his offers of grace and glory : these offers he makes to such as refuse them , and perish for refusing them , as well as unto those who doe accept them to their salvation . this is evident math. . where those were invited to the wedding that came not . and acts . . where t is said , to you hath god sent his sonne jesus to blesse you , in turning every one of you from your iniquities . math. . . how oft would i have gathered of you , saith christ , speaking of such as neglect the day of their visitation , and so lost their salvation : this is evident also by reason , for as many as are under the commandement , are under the promise too , as we may see , acts . , . repent and be baptized every one of you , and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost ; for to you , and to your children is the promise made . in which words peter makes the command and the promise of equall extent , both universall : and there is reason for it , for he makes the promise his motive to perswade obedience to the command ; and it would not have reacht home , if it had not respected all those , to whom he gives the command . no man , reprobate or other , thinks any lesse ; every man that hears the gospell preached , takes himselfe to be under the gratious offer of eternall life ; and upon these thoughts hath some desires , some hopes of it , and stirres up himselfe to forsake some pleasing sinnes , which otherwise he would not part with , and to doe some unpleasing duties , which otherwise he would not doe ; now , if god doth not meane that most of those to whom he offers his grace and glory shall have either , will he not be found halting in his offers ? zanchy tells us roundly , that every man that is called , is bound to think that he is elected ; otherwise he doth offer great injury unto god , and doth perstringere deum mendacii , qui illi in verbo dicit se velle salutem ejus , & in hunc finem ad christum vocasse . in which speech he plainly implies , that if god call a man , whom he hath absolutely rejected , he doth but delude him when he calls him . the like speech hath bucer ; primum quod deo debes , est ut credas esse te ab eo praedestinatum , nam id ni credas , facis eum tibi , cum te ad salutem vocat per evangelium , illudere . a man must believe that he is predestinated , or else he makes god to mock him when he calls him . a man therefore that is not predestinate , but an absolute reprobate , when he is called to salvation , is but deluded ; it is the necessary result of their speeches . if a creditor should resolve upon no termes to forgive his debtor one farthing of the debt , and yet make him offers to remit the whole upon some conditions , and bind the offers which he makes , with a deep and solemne oath , would we not say that he is a ranke dissembler , and a meer deluder of his poor debtor ? we can say no lesse of god , if it be true that he hath irrevocably decreed , at no hand to save such particular men , and yet promiseth , and sweareth , that he will save them if they will believe his promises and repent . what can such promises be but meere delusions of miserable men ? . in his threats and commination also ( by this doctrine ) is god made to be hollow and unsincere , for , against what sinnes are they denounced ? alwaies against actuall sinnes : we never read that they are denounced against us for originall sinnes , for the transgression of adam , or for that corruption ot nature , which we brought with us into the world ; and consequently they import that the sinnes for which men goe to hell , are their actuall transgressions . but if it be true that god decreed man to hell for originall sinne , that which those threatnings import and signify is not true , and so god is not sincere to them . besides ; all threatnings imply , that evills threatned may be avoyded , for therefore are they denounced , that men by them might come to repentance , and so escape the evill that are threatned : but if some men be peremptorily ordained to destruction , then their destruction cannot be prevented , and so the threatning of damnation ( in this respect also ) doth signify an untruth , and god in them deales not plainly with men . twisse consideration . that god is true , we make no more doubt than that there is a god at all : and that god is as farre from hypocrisy as hypocrites are farre from him . they that beat their fellow servants , and eate and drinke with the drunken , we are taught shall haue there portion with hypocrites : and we judge it impossible that god should cherish any such disposition in himselfe , which he so hates in others . but how god is made untrue and hypocriticall in his dealings with men in all ( or in any ) matters , that concerne their eternall estate by our doctrine of reprobation , more than by our doctrine of election , it is a mystery unto me ; whether we consider his commands , his offers of grace and glory , his threats , his passionate wishes and desires of mens chiefest good , and in his expostulations and commiserations also . but come we to examine how learnedly and judiciously this is carryed throughout in the particulars . . that god commands by his ministers many to believe and repent , whom he secretly purposeth shall never believe we willingly grant ; like as he comanded abraham to sacrifice isaack , and yet secretly purposed that he should not sacrifice him . this is evident by the word of god , for both his command given to abraham to this purpose is there expressed , as also his effectuall hindering of abraham , when he came to the point of sacrifysing him ; and looke what god did , that he secretly purposed to to doe : for he doth all things according to the counsell of his will ephes . . . only here is the difference , god commanding abraham to sacrifice his sonne , did positively hinder him from sacrificing isaack , but god commanding all to heare the gospell to believe , doth not hinder them from believing , when they are willing to beleive . but only refuseth to give them that grace whereby alone their naturall infidelity might be cured ; according to those words of our saviour , yee therefore heare them ( my wordes ) not , because yee are not of god. iohn . . . now let every sober man judge , whether gods course be not to be censured for hypocrisy , as well in the one as in the other : yet is this a most triviall argument , and thus usually answered by our divines , and particularly by master perkins . but this author takes no notice of this our common answer , to reply against it , but is content to pretermit it in silence ; a manifest evidence that he hath nothing of worth to say against it : for i cannot conceive him to be so ignorant , as not to know this usuall answer of our divines . but let we him proceed in his course . whom god commands to believe and repent , those he outwardly wills should believe and repent ; for by his commands he signifies his will and pleasure , and he must inwardly and heartily will it too , or else he dissembles . all this is as congruously appliable to gods commandement given unto abraham for the sacrificing of isaack , as to the commandement of believing and repenting given unto any ; although there is a vast difference between gods commandement of sacrificing isaack , and his commandement of believing . for god himselfe gave the one immediately , and that to a particular person , abraham : but god commands his ministers to preach his gospell unto all , that are present to heare them , and why ? but as he tells paul. acts . . because he hath much people , in the place whereto he sends them , and yet tells them not who those people are , who his elect are and who are not . but they , though thereupon they proceed to preach unto all without difference , yet so , as aiming at the salvation of the elect . i doe all things for all men , saith saint paul , cor. . . that i may save some ; and who are they ? let himselfe answere , where he saith , i suffer all things for the elects sake ; and by the way where he distinguisheth of gods willing outwardly and inwardly , i willingly professe i never read nor heard of it before . gods words and commandements are outward , and uttered by him , but his will is alwaies inward , though it may be , and is signified by his words , and so is his will signified alwaies by his commandements ; but what will ? not that such a thing as god commands shall be done , as this author ignorantly conceives , but that it shall be their duty , ( to whom the commandement is given ) to doe that which is commanded : for if gods will were that such a thing should be done de facto , undoubtedly it should be done and come to passe de facto , for who hath resisted his will ? so that here we have a true interpretation of the mind of god by his commandement , to wit , quid ab homine fieri debeat , but no interpretation of any such mind in god , as if fieri vellet , whatsoever he commands . for the case is cleare and undeniable that gods will was , that isaack should not be sacrificed , as well as by his command , to make it abrahams duty to sacrifice him . the like was the case of pharaoh to whom the lord sent a message by moses to let israell goe : hereupon it was pharaohs duty to let israell goe , and that upon gods command , god thereby signifying his will to make this act pharaohs duty ; but was it gods will also that pharaoh should de facto obey , and let israell goe upon this command ? if so , why doth god tell moses that he will harden pharaohs heart , and that he shall not let israell goe . where we have a manifest example of the great difference of the objects of gods will ; the one what gods will was , that pharaoh ought to doe ; and the other what his will was should be done by him : the letting of israell goe , was that which pharaoh ought to doe by the will of god , but the not letting of israell goe by pharaoh , was that which god willed should come to passe ; and why doth not this author take boldnesse to censure these proceedings of the lord with pharaoh as hypocriticall proceedings ? the same spirit will serve the turne for both , though not without betraying as much judgement as honesty . in the like sort , it might be urged of the very elect , as of the reprobate , for the very elect are not alwaies converted at the first hearing of the gospell , nor till the time god hath appoynted for their effectuall vocation : yet from their first hearing of the gospell , this command is made unto them , and thereby is signified gods will that they ought to believe it , yet is it not gods will that they shall believe , and be converted untill the time that god hath appoynted . that which in my judgement is more to the purpose is this , that by commanding to believe , he supposeth them at least in pretence to be indued with a power to believe ; but then say i in like manner , he supposeth them to be indifferent to believe or not to believe , as they will , that is either to yeeld or else to resist ; now this is indifferent to be objected as well against election , as against reprobation : for like as wee say it cannot be that the reprobate should believe de facto , so wee say it cannot be , that the elect should not beliefe at that time , de facto , which god hath appoynted for their effectuall conversion . and what advantage this author can hence worke to himselfe , i will be ready to take into consideration , as soone as it is offered . so that hitherto i hope , i have freed the divine course maintained by us , from all just imputation of imposture and dissimulation : let him looke to it how he can cleare his conscience from the impiety of his crimination . i come to the second . . here those offers of grace and glory , which wee ascribe to god , he chargeth with imposture and simulation . but he contents himselfe with the generality of grace , that is for his best advantage . i will answere to each part . as for glory or salvation , wee offer it unto none , ( neither doe we teach that god makes offer of it unto any ) but to such as finally persevere in faith and repentance , according to that , revelations . to him that overcometh , i will give to sit with mee in my throne , even as i also overcame , and am set downe with my father in his throne . and be thou faithfull unto the death , and i will give thee a crowne of life . and gal. . be not weary of well doing , for in good time ye shall reape if ye faint not . and accordingly we teach , that it is the will of god , that as many as believe & repent and persevere therein , shall be saved : & no other will of god is signified herein . and if this be true , that god doth will this , and no other thing then this is signified in his offers of glory and salvation . what colour of imposture and dissimulation , doth appeare in all this ? for glory and salvation , god doth not will that it shall be the portion of any one of ripe yeares , absolutely but conditionally , to wit , if he repent and believe . and in case all and every one of the world should believe and repent , all and every one ( how notorious sinners soever they be found ) shall be saved ; such is the sufficiency of christs merits . i say this is true , not of them only , who are invited to the wedding . math. . nor of them only , to whom saint peter speaketh , acts . . or to them only , of whom our saviour speaketh , math. . . but of all and every one throughout the world : and it is as true , that none of them shall be saved , if they dye in infidelity and impenitency , this god himselfe signifyeth to be his will by his promise , acts . , . on the one part , and on both parts , mark . . and as god signifieth this to be his will , so indeed is his will according to our doctrine , and there is no colour of imposture or simulation in all this . in like sort as touching the grace of pardon of sinne , this also god offers unto all that heare the gospell , but how ? not absolutely but conditionally , in case they believe and repent ; and it is gods will that every one who believeth , shall have his sinne pardoned ; none that i know either thinketh or teacheth otherwise , whether he falleth out either to be elect or reprobate ; though how to distinguish men according unto this difference i know not , i leave that unto god. and accordingly as touching the desire and hopes , that hereupon arise in the thoughts of reprobates , i am nothing acquainted with them , any more than i am with their persons : as likewise neither am i private to their stirring up of themselves to forsake some pleasing sinnes , which otherwise they would not part with ; and to doe some unpleasing duties , which otherwise they would not doe : but in generall i have read in austin , that god calleth some ( though reprobates ) ut proficiant ad exteriorem vitae emendationem quo mitius puniantur . but i can hardly believe , that herod was any one of them , though he did many things at his admonition , because i see a shamefull issue , giving way to the cutting off iohn baptists head , for the gratifying of a wanton damsell . now like as we say , god doth signify his meaning to be , that as many as believe and repent shall have their sinnes pardoned , and their soules saved : so if it can be proved that there is no such meaning in god , then in my poore judgement it cannot be avoyded , but that god must be found halting in his offers . but for my part , i acknowledge such a meaning in god , neither have i to this houre , found any one of our divines either by word or writing to have denyed this to be the meaning of god : and i wonder what this author means after this manner to carry himselfe in the cloudes of generalities ; and whether it be through sillinesse , or malitiousnesse i am to seeke : but if i may be so bold as to guesse , i think the root of all this his superficiary discourse is the confounding of absolute reprobation with absolute damnation , and in like sort absolute election with salvation absolute : for as for pardon of sinne , and salvation , we acknowledge them to be bestowed on men of ripe years conditionally ; and as god bestowes them , so also he decreed to bestow them ( we say ) conditionally , to wit , in case they believe and repent : but in case they believe and repent not , damnation is their portion , and that by the decree of god. but as touching the gift of faith and repentance , these we maintain to be given of god absolutely , according to the meere pleasure of his will : and accordingly denyed unto others , as the apostle signifieth , saying , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . but this author meddles not hither to with these gifts , but keeps himselfe to the graces of pardon of sinne , and of salvation , which god bestowes conditionally ; and signifies his meaning to be , to bestow them conditionally , namely , in case they believe and repent , and not otherwise , and such indeed we maintaine to have been his meaning , and that from everlasting . so that in all this there is no colour of imposture or simulation . but in that which followeth , he stealeth upon the grace of faith it selfe ; let us see how clearely , and with what felicity he carryeth himselfe , and whether it be not answerable to his former carriage which he continueth throughout . zanchy ( he saith ) tells us roundly , that every man that is called , is bound to think he is elected ; but why doth he not speake out and say , that every one is bound ( in the opinion of zanchy ) to believe that he is elected , as formerly he related it . i grant that to believe is to think , for credere , is defined to be cum assensione cogitare , but thoughts he knows are very wild , they have their course in dreames ; as a hungry man may dreame that he eateth and drinketh , but when he awaketh , his soule is empty . and as for that doctrine of zanchy , i have already given a faire interpretation of it , upon consideration that he speaks it of election not unto faith , but unto salvation : and seeing god hath manifested in his word his determination to give salvation to every one that believeth , it followeth herehence , that every one is bound to believe , that as many as doe believe shall be saved : and consequently every one that heareth the gospell is bound to believe , that god hath determined to bestow salvation on him , in case hee be found to believe . the like construction may be given of bucers doctrine ; namely , that god hath predestinated him to obtain salvation in case he believe , not otherwise . for god hath not predestinated any man of ripe years to obtain salvation , whether he believe or not . and seeing god hath plainly professed that whosoever believeth shall be saved . mar. . . if i doe not accordingly believe , that god hath predestinated me to obtain salvation in case i doe believe , i doe hereby make god to delude me in saying whosoever believeth shall be saved . and whereas this author upon the back of this addeth , that a man therefore that is not predestinate , but an absolute reprobate , when he is called to salvation is but deluded ; and that this is the necessary result of our speeches . all the colour of this his inference , depends meerely upon confusion of things that differ . for he distinguisheth not between absolute predestination unto salvation , and predestination unto salvation absolute : likewise he distinguisheth not between absolute reprobation unto damnation , and reprobation unto damnation absolute : neither doth he distinguish between predestination unto faith , and predestination unto salvation ; nor between reprobation from faith , and reprobation unto damnation . and the absolutenesse of predestination appears only in predestination unto faith , not in predestination unto salvation . for salvation being bestowed on none of ripe years , but by way of reward of their faith , repentance and good works ; hence it followes , that god predestinates none unto salvation of ripe years , but by way of reward of their obedience . but as for predestination unto faith , it is cleare , that god purposeth absolutely to bestow faith on whom he will. so on the other side damnation being inflicted on none , but for sinne god hath destinated no man unto damnation but for sinne . but as touching obduration , like as god hardneth whom he will , so he decreed to proceed herein , to wit , in hardening of men according to the meere pleasure of his will , that is , absolutely . now let us not suffer a cauteriate conscience , to smother a plain truth , with the confusion of those things which are to be distinguished . absolute is opposed to conditionate ; and this distinction applied to gods will is to be understood not quoad actum volentis , sed quoad res volitas ; as for example , god decrees that a man shall be saved upon condition of faith , this is called voluntas conditionata , so ovssius expounds it . hist . pelag. lib. . p. . his words are these , aliqua vult cum conditione , quae idcirco in effectum non prodeunt nisi conditione impletâ . some things ( god ) willeth with a condition , which come not unto effect , but upon the fulfilling of the condition ; this is plainly understood , not of the act of willing , but of the things willed , which he calls aliqua , and the instance he gives us is this , quo modo omnes homines salvari vult , sed per & propter christum fide apprehensum , after which manner he will have all to be saved , but by and for christ apprehended by faith ; where faith is plainly made the condition of salvation , not of gods will ; yet this will of god , he calls forthwith a conditionate will , and that according to the ancients , in these words , de hac conditionatâ illâ dei voluntate extant longe plurima apud veteres scriptores . by which it is manifest , that voluntas conditionata , is by vossius so called , and in his opinion by the ancients , not on the part of god willing , as if there were any condition thereof , which bradwardine hath disproved as a thing impossible well neere years agoe ; but on the part of the things willed by god ; now the things willed by god are either absolutely so willed , or conditionally ; as for example , pardon of sinne and salvation , are only conditionally willed by god : to wit , upon the condition of faith and repentance , but as for the gift of faith and repentance , they are willed by god to be bestowed absolutely , to wit , according to the meer pleasure of gods will , hence it followeth that the will of god to conferre salvation , is only voluntas coditionata , and denominates not a man absolutely predestinated , but only conditionally , still understanding it not quod actum volentis , but quoad res volitas , as vossius himselfe interprets it , and that according to the ancients . in like sort the will of god to inflict damnation , is a conditionate will according to the same construction that vossius makes of a will conditionate , according to the fathers ; and denominates not a man absolutely reprobated , but only conditionally . now this being the will that zanchy and bucer speak of , most preposterously doth this author shape a man hereupon , to be termed an absolute predestinate , or an absolute reprobate : for in this respect , like as the will of god in this case , is accounted not absoluta but conditionata , so the person denominated hereby , in all equity is to be accounted , not predestinated absolutely , but conditionally , nor reprobated absolutely but conditionally . but in respect of another will of god , i willingly confesse , one may be accounted predestinate absolutely , and another reprobated absolutely , to wit , in respect of the will of giving the grace of faith and repentance unto one , and denying it to another : and that because faith and repentance are not given and denied upon any condition , but absolutely , according to the meer pleasure of god ; as we are ready to maintaine . but herehence no species of contradiction ariseth , for like as it is no contradiction to say that god willeth absolutely unto paul the grace of faith and repentance , and conditionally willeth unto him and every one salvation , to wit , upon condition of faith and repentance : in like sort , there is no contradiction to say , that the same man is predestinated absolutely unto faith , and conditionally unto salvation : in like sort it may be said without all contradiction , that the same man is both reprobated absolutely from faith , and yet reprobated conditionally from glory unto condemnation . and lastly , in like manner , there is no contradiction to say , that the same man is predestinated conditionally to obtain salvation ; and yet absolutely reprobated from faith : especially seeing it is all one , to be predestinated conditionally to obtain salvation , and conditionally to obtain damnation : for he that is ordained to be saved in case he believe , is therewithall ordained to be damned in case he believe not : the ground whereof is , that of our saviour whosoever believeth shall be saved , whosoever believeth not shall be damned . now if god may both will unto a man salvation conditionally , to wit , upon condition he believeth , and yet withall will the deniall of faith absolutely unto him , without all contradiction , ( as i have already proved ) it followeth , that without all contradiction , a man may be said both to be predestinated to obtain salvation conditionally , viz. in case he doe believe , and so to be predestinated absolutely , to be hardned , or to have the grace of faith denyed him . so that this authors conclusion depends meerely upon confusion of different denominations of a man said to be absolutely , or conditionally predestinated : which may be in respect of different things whereto he is predestinated , to the one absolutly , to the other conditionally , and consequently without all contradiction . for he that is absolutely reprobated from the grace of faith , may yet be conditionally predestinated unto salvation . for to be conditionally predestinated unto salvation , is to be conditionally predestinated unto damnation , and what sober man will say , that there is any contradiction in this , to say , that the same man is both conditionally reprobated unto damnation , and absolutely reprobated from faith . faith being such a gift of god , that like as god absolutely bestowes it on some , so as absolutely he denies it to others . but as for condemnation , that is inflicted on none but for sinne , like as salvation is bestowed on none of ripe years , but as a reward of obedience . in like manner god decreed not either to bestow the one , or inflict the other but conditionally , to wit , upon condition of faith on the one side , and upon condition of infidelity on the other . now if such confusion be committed in these denominations of the predestinate and reprobate , absolutely and conditionally , on the part of things willed by god , as namely in respect of grace and glory on the one side , and in respect of the denyall of grace and glory , together with inflicting of damnation on the other ; how much more must this confusion be augmented , if not only different things willed by god ( as before mentioned ) are confounded , but over and above the act of gods will is confounded with things willed by him . for as for the act of gods will , that it admitts no condition , i have formerly demonstrated by diverse arguments ; one whereof , and that invincible , is this ; if sinne be the cause or condition of gods will , or decree of damnation , then either by necessity of nature , or by the constitution of god ; not by necessity of nature ( as all confesse , ) nor ( say i ) can it be by any constitution of god , as i prove thus ; if by the constitution of god , then god hath ordained that upon the foresight of sinne , he will ordaine men unto salvation ; where the eternall ordination of god , is made the object of gods eternall ordination ; a thing utterly impossible , it being apparent that nothing can be the object of gods eternall ordination or decree , but things temporall . the similitude whereby he illustrates , not his conclusion , but the pretended absurdity of our doctrine , is most aliene . for god is not like unto a creditor , who resolves upon no termes to forgive his debtor one farthing of his debt , and yet makes offer to remit the whole debt upon some conditions . for as god hath professed that whosoever believeth shall be saved , so ; hath not god resolved that whosoever believeth shall be saved ? was ever any of our divines known to deny this ? but herein they joyne issue with their adversaries , as the contra-remonstrants did with the remonstrants , namely , in maintaining that this is not the whole decree of predestination ; but that there is another decree of predestination besides this ; namely , that god over and above hath determined to bestow faith on some . so on the other side , none of our divines were ever known to deny , that god hath decreed , that whosoever believes not shall be damned ; but further they professe , that this is not the whole decree of reprobation , but that there is another decree concerning reprobation besides this , namely , that god hath over and above decreed to deny some the grace of faith , and that absolutely . now whereas he saith , we maintain that god hath irrevocably decreed not to save some , whom he promiseth that he will save if they believe ; is he well in his witts , for charging us with that , by way of crimination , which no understanding divine among the arminians themselves dare deny ? i mean as touching the poynt of gods irrevocable decree . for what arminian hath dared in plain tearmes to professe , that gods decrees are of a revocable nature ? whereas the meere prescience of god , is sufficient to make them irrevocable ; how much more if gods prescience be grounded upon his decree ? as indeed there is no other ground imaginable , without falling upon manifest atheisme . but whereas he fashioneth our doctrine , so as if we said , that god hath decreed at no hand to save them , to whom he promiseth salvation upon condition of faith ; this is a notorious untruth , and such as implyeth manifest contradiction : for to say he hath resolved at no hand to save them , is as much as to say , that he hath resolved to save them on no condition . but if he hath promised to save them in case they believe , undoubtedly he hath resolved , to save them upon condition of faith . only gods resolution to save them , is not held in suspence , considering that from everlasting , he well knew who would believe , and who would not ; and therefore he knew this , because he purposed to grant faith unto the one , and deny it unto the other . so that in all this cry , we have little wooll , no substance of any sound proofe , but meere clamours and miserable confusion ; as god sees how well it becomes him to smite them with the spirit of confusion , that build babell of their own invention , and oppose the truth , the precious truth of his soveraignty over his creatures , and of the prerogative of his free grace , to have mercy on whom he will , like as he shewes his power in hardening whom he will , and in smiting with giddinesse whom he will. . in the next place , we are to heare how god , by our doctrine in his threats and comminations is hollow , and unsincere . i willingly grant these are alwaies denounced against actuall sinnes , as also that the sinnes for which men goe to hell , are actuall sinnes , if they live to be conscious of actuall transgressions . but if god have decreed men to hell for originall sinne , then god ( saith he ) is not true , and so not sincere . this is utterly unconsequent ; for god can manifest his pleasure otherwise than by his threatnings . of the sodomites it is said , they suffer the vengeance of eternall fire ; and infants perished therein , as well as men of ripe years : and the apostle plainly saith , that we have all sinned in adam , and that the wages of sinne is death , without distinction ; and that all are borne children of wrath , and therefore as many as dye in that condition , dye children of wrath . and whence hath this author learned , that the sinne of adam hath brought upon us the guilt of eternall death , as formerly he hath professed : but if i be not deceived , this extends farther than to infants , and in as much as some of our divines conceive the corrupt masse , to be the object of reprobation , hereupon he conceits , they make god to damne all reprobates for originall sinne ; whereas their doctrine is no other than this , that god determines to damne every man for no other sinnes , but such wherein they dye unrepented of , whether they be originall or actuall . threatnings are denounced unto all to this end , that men may know , that by continuing in sinne without repentance there is no hope of mercy , and therefore as they desire to be saved , it is there duty to breake them off by repentance : and in particular unto some that by this consideration , god may bring them unto repentance . but these are only gods elect , but as for others god never brings unto them true repentance , according to that of s. austin , istorum neminem adducit deus ad salubrem spiriitalemque poenitentiam qua homo reconciliatur deo in christo sive illis ampliorum patientiam sive non imparem praebeat . yet god ordaines no man of ripe yeares unto destruction but for sinne finally continued in , without repentance ; and the threatning of damnation signifyes no other thing but this , that if they repent not , they shall be damned , which is most true to whomsoever it is pronounced ; and this dealing of god is plain enough . but these divines would not have faith and repentance to be the gifts of god , but the workes of mens free-wills , that so they might be their own crafts-men of their salvation . discourse . subsect . ii. . god is also full of guile in the other things before named , by this opinion , viz. in his passionate wishes , that even those men might repent , that repent not , and might be saved that through their impenitency are not saved . of these we read deuter. . . oh that there were such a heart in them to feare me , that it might goe well with them . and in psal . . . o that my people had harkened unto mee , and israell had walked in my wayes . and isaiah . . oh that thou hadst hearkened unto my commandements . &c. . in his expostulations . isai . . . judge i pray you between me and my vineyard , what could i have done more for my vineyard ? ier. . throughout . especially v. . and . have i been a wildernesse unto israell , or a land of darknesse ? and ● . . can a maid forget her ornaments , or a bride her attire , yet my people have forgotten mee dayes without number . ezek. . . turne yee , turne yee , o yee house of israell why will ye dye ? . in his commiserations also of the woefull condition of foolish men , that would not be reclaymed . hos . . . how shall i give thee up ephraim , how shall i deliver thee o israell ? my repentings are kindled together , my heart is turned within me , and math. . . o jerusalem jerusalem which killest the prophets , and stonest them that are sent unto thee . in all these there is but little sincerity , if there be a setled resolution that the most of those , towards whom those wishes , chidings , and melting considerations are used , shall be unavoydable damned gods fairest offers , his sweetest invitations , his greatest sympathies , and amplest curtesies , ( if this doctrine be true ) come very little short i think of absolons feast , ioabs congie , the kisse of iudas , and the hyaenaes teares , for in all these , aliud animo vult , aliud verbis significat ; he sayeth one thing and meanes another , and therefore dissembles . this is so evident , that some maintainers of absolute reprobation doe not deny it , but ascribe unto god sanctam simulationem , duplicem personam , duplicem voluntatem a holy counterfeiting a double face , a double will , by which they offer extreame injury unto god , for tolerabilius est ( saith tertullian ) duos divisos quam unum versipellem deum praedicare . it is more tolerable to set up two gods then a double and deceitfull god. if this be granted , iesuits have no cause to be ashamed of their equivocations : nor polititians of their holy water , and crafty dissimulations ; men need not be afraid to cogge and lye , and deale deceitfully one with another , but are ●ather to be commended for their courtship and complements , and false-heartednesse , because in this they doe but imitate god , to whom whosoever they be that come nearest , they are the best . but howsoever some doe inconsideratly ascribe such things to god , the most ( i know ) would tremble to entertaine such thoughts : and therefore the more horrible it is ; to lay such things to the charge of the almighty , the farther i take this opinion to be from all truth and honesty . twisse consideration . god ( he saith ) by our doctrine , is made full of guile in his passionate wishes , that even these men might repent , that repent not . the guile i guesse consists in this , that god hereby makes shew , that he would have them to repent , when yet indeed , he hath no such will. to this i answer , that by the same reason he might conclude , that god carrieth himselfe with guile , in taking unto himselfe eyes , and eares , and hands , and heart , for hereby he makes shew that he hath the members of a man. but to this we answer , that this shew is only unto them that understand that properly , which is to be taken figuratively : so that it is not the word of god , so much as the weaknesse of men in understanding it , that casts this colour . for these things indeed , are spoken only per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is a metaphoricall kind of speech . and if god takes liberty to conforme himselfe to the members of our body , may not he take as great liberty to conforme himselfe to the passions of our minds , and to assume unto him , the passions of feare , wrath , and jealousy , joy , sorrow , and such like ? isai . . . for he said surely they are my people , children that will not lye , so he was their saviour : yet what followeth in the next verse save one : but they rebelled and vexed his holy spirit . according to the course of this divines superficiall consideration , a man might conceive , that god is subject to errour , and improvidence , as well as man ; for god said surely they will not lye , but it appeared by the event , that they did lye . so that hereupon we are driven to conclude , that the former passage is delivered per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in conformity to a mans judgement , who promiseth unto himselfe better obedience from his child for the time to come , then afterwards he finds . in like sort , god in his passionate wishes , conformes himselfe to the condition of man , who useth this sometimes , as a means to worke impression upon his child , to be more carefull to order his conversation towards his parents . and this being apt to work upon a child , though but naturally ingenuous , why may not god use this course ? nay if he should not use this course , he could not be said to doe all for his vineyard , that could be done , in the way of outward husbandry . so that passionate wishes , are but a passionate kind of exhortation ; god through us doth beseech you ( saith paul ) we pray you in christs stead , to be reconciled unto god. cor. . . yet neverthelesse the same apostle professeth that the gospell was a savour of death unto death to some , cor. . . now the gospell includes all these and such like patheticall admonitions ; and hereby god doth effectually signify , how much he delights in the obedience of the creature , and in the glorifying of his mercy in their salvation . but yet this mercy of god , in giving the grace of obedience , is not shewed indifferently towards all , but only to some , even whom the lord will. rom. . . and this consideration drives us to interpret such passionate wishes not properly , but figuratively . for whereas the lord saith , deut. . . oh that there were such an heart in them to feare me . who can deny but that god could give them such an heart , if it pleased him ? and the same moses professeth of these very people of israell , that god had not given them such an heart for the space of years . deut. . . you have seen the great temptations and signes ; but the lord hath not given you an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto this day , and jerem. . . he makes promise of giving it to some ; i will put my feare in their heart , that they shall never depart away from me . in like sort whereas the lord saith , isai . . . oh that thou hadst hearkened unto my commandements . psal . . . oh that my people had hearkened unto me , and israel had walked in my waies ! who doubts but that it was in the power of god , to work them hereunto , by boaring their eares , and circumcising them , by regenerating them , and so making them to be borne of god ; that so being of god , they might heare his words . iohn . . as also to put his own spirit within them , and cause them to walke in his statutes , and keep his judgements and doe them : ezek. . . . in his expostulations , in that , isai . . . what could i have done more for my vineyard ? what doth this signify more , than that more could not be done ? but how ? in the way of outward husbandry , conforming himselfe to an husbandman , that hath planted a vineyard . for can it be denied , but that god could have made them fruitfull , had it pleased him : and though paul plants and apollo watereth , yet , is it not gods peculiar office to give the encrease ? is it not he that worketh in us every good thing that is pleasing in his sight through jesus christ . heb. . . is not he both the author and finisher of our faith ? was it not he that gave repentance unto israell ; acts . . and to the gentiles . acts . . and must we not waite with our hearers , if so be god may give them repentance ? tim. . . and as for that of jerem. . . can a maid forget her ornament , or a bride her attire , yet my people have forgotten mee . and have i been a wildernesse unto israell , or a land of darknesse . is not this exprobration of their unthankfulnesse just , and without guile , unlesse god doe actually change all their hearts . yet this might be a means and also was , and is , and ever shall continue to be a means to bring gods people to repentance . and undoubtedly the worst of them , had power to have abstained from many of those foule sinnes , yea from all of them , wherewith god doth upbraid them ; albeit to abstaine from any sinne in a gracious manner , be a worke of gods speciall grace , which he affords not , according to mens workes ( which way tends all this eager but superficiary discourse ) but according to his own purpose and grace . . hosea . . god represents as it were a conflict within him , between his mercy and justice ; and his mercy hath the glory of the day ; but wherein ? to spare them , though their sinnes deserved at his hands , that he should make them as adma and zeboim , as sodome and gomorrah . he would rather shew himselfe to be as he is , god , and and not man ; and wherein ? but in this , man may pardon his enemy , but cannot change his heart , it is otherwise with god , he can both pardon our sinnes , and change our hearts , and to this purpose he becomes our lord and our god , and walkes in the midst of us , as the holy one of israell , to sanctify us , as it followeth in the same place of hosea , v. . they shall walk after the lord , he shall roare like a lyon , viz. in such expostulations , comminations , &c. but the issue shall be gracious ; for when he shall reare , then the children of the west shall feare , that is feare unto him , as hos . . . that is , come flying unto him , and to his goodnesse with feare : like birds scared from one place , fly with greater speed to another : so conscience affrighted with sense of sinne , and apprehension of gods wrath , shall fly from his wrath , unto his mercy , to his goodnesse : whereof god shall make unto them a full representation in david their king , that is in christ , as in whom we behold the glory of gods grace with open face , and trepidare in latine , is found to be of the same signification with festinare . and v. . is manifested as much , as where it is said , they shall feare as a sparrow out of egypt , and as a dove out of the land of egypt ; and i will place them in their houses , saith the lord. that is , come flying unto the lord with feare . as for that math. . . o jerusalem , how oft would i : &c. this is of another nature , as being delivered by christ the sonne of god , made under the law , who , as in his manhood , he might entertaine such desires in proper speech , so by the law of god , was bound to desire the conversion of his brethren , as well as any other prophet , or man of god , or minister of his word . but such confusion becomes this discourse right well . in all this ( he saith ) there is little sincerity , if there be a secret resolution , that the most of these , towards whom those wishes , chidings , and commiserations are used , shall be unavoydably damned . but what if but one of them , towards whom these are used , by a secret resolution shall be unavoydably damned , is there sincerity enough in these courses divine ? sureif this resolution , concerning the unavoydable damnation of the one , doth not prejudice gods sincerity , neither shall such a resolution concerning the damnation of two , or of two hundred , or thousands , or the most , any way prejudice sincerity divine . but this kind of discourse , is spread all over this treatise , like a scab only to worke upon vulgar affection , where judgement is wanting to observe the frothy condition of it . and whereas he saith that in all this god aliud animo vult aliud verbis significat , its most untrue , as to every one should be made manifest , according to the right understanding of it , had he been pleased to accommodate it severally , and shew what that is , which god signifies by his word , and what that is , which he willeth in his heart . and indeed , as in the poynt of gods commandement , i have shewed there is no colour of contradiction between it , and gods purpose , but only according to this authors superficiary interpretation . for to command a thing , is only to will , that it shall be our duty to doe it : notwithstanding which , it is apparent , god may purpose not to give grace to worke the doing of it . so in every one of the rest , had he instanced as it became him , and shewed wherein the guile consisted , the absurdity of this crimination might have been made as manifest as in this . that which he conceales , and which he would have his readers rather take to themselves , than shew himselfe clearely to stand to the maintainance thereof , seems to be this ; that every one hath power given him to believe , to repent , to change his heart , yea to regenerate himselfe , but it sticks in his teeth , and he dares not speake it out plainly . only he keepes himselfe to gods resolution , concerning mans unavoydable damnation ; yet we maintaine not that any contingent things come to passe unavoydably , that were utterly against the nature of a contingent thing , which is to come to passe , so as joyned with a possibility of not coming to passe . and as for damnation in particular , we acknowledge it throughout , to be avoydable by repentance , and not otherwise , unto men of ripe years : and as for repentance , we say , that there is no man but may repent as long as he lives , through grace : so that in the issue the maine poynt to be debated herein is , whether every man living hath such a grace given him as whereby he may repent . but upon this poynt though his whole discourse be grounded thereupon , yet is he content to say just nothing ; least their shamefull and most unconscionable courses in dishonouring the grace of god , should be discovered and brought to light . but consider in a word or two as touching this universall grace , which they make to consist in the inabling of the will , to will any goodthing whereunto they shall be excited . if such a grace be universall , then every one hath power to believe , and power to repent . but this is untrue , for the apostle telleth us of some , that they cannot repent . rom. . . of the naturall man , that he cannot discerne the things of god ; and that they are foolishnesse unto him ; and while they seeme foolishnesse unto him , is it possible that therein he should discerne the wisdome of god ? cor. . . our saviour tells us of some , that they cannot believe : ioh. . . and tells others to their face , saying , how can you believe , when ye receive honour one of another , and seeke not the honour that comes from god only , ioh. . . likewise of them that are in the flesh saint paul saith , they cannot please god. rom. . . . it is the habit of faith that inables us to believe , so that if all men have power to believe , it must be confessed , that all men have faith , but the apostle saith , fides non est omnium ; thes . . . tit. . . he saith it is electorum ; like as austin professeth habere fidem , sicut & habere charitatem gratiae est fidelium : de praedest . sanct. cap. . . whosoever hath power to prduce a vitall act , hath life in him ; and consequently , whosoever hath power to produce any act of the life of grace , hath the life of grace in him : but the acts of faith and repentance , are the acts of the life of grace , therefore whosoever hath power to produce these , hath in him the life of grace . but this is not true of all , for the scripture testifies of some , that they are dead in sinne . ephes . . . are strangers from the life of god. ephes . . . againe , then all should be regenerated , but that is untrue , for regeneration is signified , psal . . in scripture to be wrought by the word of god. peter . . . iam. . . but all have not the word of god. . if a man hath power to believe and repent , then the reason why a man doth not believe and repent , is not because he cannot , but because he will not ; so that in the issue it comes to this , that a man may believe if he will , repent if he will ; but such a power is not grace , but nature rather , as appears by austin . l. . de gtnesi contra manich. cap. . where he professeth , that omnes possunt credere si velint : now compare this , with that he hath in the same place , where though he saith that omnes credere possint si velint , yet posse credere , simply taken , ariseth meerely out of the gift of charity ; which he professeth to be gratiae fidelium , de praedest . sanct. c. . but there he professeth that posse habere fidem , is naturae hominum , the very naturall condition of all men . i farther prove it by reason thus ; look by what power i can believe if i will , by the same power i can refuse to believe if i will ; now such a power is no other , then whereby a man is indifferent to doe good or evill : but such a condition is not grace ; for grace is goodnesse , now goodnesse doth not dispose any , either to good or evill indifferently , but precisely to that which is good ; like as naughtinesse disposeth a man only to that which is evill . he sleepes so sweetly upon his arminian pillow , that his very dreames make him confident of the evidence of his deductions . and he gives reasons for it , and that of most force for conviction , namely the confession of his adversaries ; the maintainers of absolute reprobation , for even they , he saith , doe not deny this , but ascribe unto god sanctam simulationem , duplicem personam , duplicem voluntatem . but he names none , content to sing to himself & his muses throughout , when he relats what our sides answer to his profound discourses . and i commend his wisdome more then his honesty in this , for if he had quoted his authors herein , it may be something might have bin discovered that would be little pleasing unto him : yet herein he confounds things much different ; for as for a double will ascribed unto god , all the learned doe acknowledge so much , and the scriptures testify it ; as namely , that his decree is called the will of god : as , what the lord willeth , that hath he done , both in heaven and in earth , and who hath resisted his will ? as also that gods commandement is called usually the will of god , as , this is the will of god , even your sanctification , that every one should know how to possesse his vessell in holinesse , and honour , and not in the lust of concupiscence , as the gentiles doe which know not god. thes . . , . as for duplicem personam , that is a phrase which i never read before , yet the phrase of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is usually in the holy scripture , as when god takes unto him both the members of a mans body , and the passions of his mind ; and so speakes in the way of condescension to our infirmities , as to put upon himselfe the person of a man : and this is undenyable by all that are not anthropomorphites . and as touching our blessed saviour , we acknowledge in him duplicem naturam , a double nature , though not duplicem personam , a double person , and accordingly sometimes , he both speakes of himselfe , and is spoken of , as touching the nature of his god-head , and sometimes as touching the nature of his man-hood . as for the first , that alone is materiall to his present purpose , namely , as touching sancta simulatio , ascribed unto god by our divines . now it were worth the while to know who is his author in this , and that of the passages alleadged by this author , doth professe that they doe represent in god an holy kind of simulation : how could he exspect that this should give any satisfaction , seeing he conceales the author of it ? and what reader would not be moved , with a very greedy desire to know the author of such an interpretation of the passages alleadged by this . divine , that he might consider whether it be rightly alleadged or no ; and if rightly , with what sobriety they deliver it ? now i remember well to have read in piscator , that the scripture attributes in a certaine place simulation unto christ , not in any passage of this nature wee treat of , as namely , luke . . where it is said , he made as though hee would goe farther : like enough to irritate their devotions , and to provoke their zealous desire so much the more to retaine him a little longer . and i willingly professe not the simulation , but the dissimulation of this author in this case hath stirred up a desire in me to be sati●fied , as touching the author of this sancta simulatio . now i find in piscator his answer to vorstius his parasc●uen , the first part pag. . both that place of simulation attributed unto christ out of luke . . and also , how that in the examples of gods messages sent to hezekiah , that he should dye and not live ; and to the ninevites by jonah , yet forty daies and nineve shall be destroyed , his opinion is , that therein god doth signify care , se velle quod non vult . his words are these ; adhaec etsi deus interdum significet se velle quod non vult , non tamen propterea hypocriseos insimulandus est ; ( for this vorstius objected unto him ) sed potius sapientia ejus agnoscenda in hominibus ad serias preces & seriam poenitentiam adducendis ; ut liquet in exemplo begis ezekiae recuperantis sanitatem & ninivitarum conservatorum : and whereas vorstius laies to his charge , that in saying god commands one thing , and purposeth another , he doth impute unto god hypocrisy , ( which is the very substance of this authors answere in this place . ) see i pray how he answers it without attributing any holy simulation at all unto god in this case . ad praecepta vero quod attinet : non statim sequitur deum agere hipocritam si quid praecipiat , quod fieri nolit ; etenim hypocritam is demum agit , qui simulat pietatem quâ caret . sane quicquid praecipit deus , id vult voluntare approbante , si fiat , nisi interveniat praeceptum contrarium , ut factum est in praecepto quod dederat abrahamo de mactando isaaco . interim tamen voluntate decernente non vult ut singuli ea faciant quae omnibus praecipit , ut liquet in caede christi per judam & judaeos perpetratâ . acts . . hereupon i look farther , and consider what vorstius hath answered unto this . now vorstius his answer hereunto is this . amic . duplic . p. . non is tantum hypocrita est qui pietatem simulat quâ caret , sed & ille qui dolosè alterum sub blandâ specie decipit , offerens ei salutem quam nunquam in animo habuit ipsi dare . piscator in his answer hereunto , doth not distinguish between hypocrisy , and a holy simulation , as if he denyed the former of god , and affirmed the latter . but vorstius himselfe doth not deny unto god , all kind of simulation , but only dolosam , such as is deceitfull , amic . duplic . p. . . and withall professeth , that god may signify that he willeth some thing which indeed he willeth not . i am perswaded , for feare of starting this , this discourser was loath to name his author , if so be he himselfe read that which he here speakes of , sancta simulatio in piscator , and took it not hand over head from anothers information , without all crime of hypocrisy ; his words are these . p. . fateor equidem deum non continuò hypocriseos insimulandum esse , si interdum aliquo modo significet se velle quod revera non vult : posset enim hoc facere si velit ex absolutâ suâ authoritate , nempe cum eis de rebus agitur , quae neque cum sanctissima ipsius natura , neque cum voluntate jam in verbo patefacta quicquid pugnant . and whereas he farther urgeth , that neverthelesse , we must not yeeld easily any manner of simulation attributed unto god , though it be not deceitfull , laying it to piscators charge , that he did attribute simulation unto god , in the message he sent by isaiah to hezekiah , and that other sent by jonah to the ninevites ; piscator denies that he affirmed any such thing , or that he alleadged the examples of hezekiah and the ninevites to any such purpose , though he addeth , that in his opinion , it is not disagreeable to those examples , to acknowledge an holy simulation of god therein : take his own words ; tu hic pugnas sine adversario : nam ego neque affirmavi facile aliquam simulationis speciem deo tribuendam esse , neque exempla illa ezekiae & ninivitarum huc retuli : interim non puto ab exemplis illis alienum esse , ut sanct a dei simulatio in illis statuatur . and this it may be is the only ground of this authors calumnious pretence in this place ; namely , that some maintainers of absolute reprobation , doe not deny that which he inferres concerning simulation divine , in the passages alleadged by him , ascribing unto god sanctam simulationem : whereas piscator acknowledgeth not any such thing , in any passages of scripture alleadged by this author , but only as touching the examples of hezekias , and the ninevites , and that in this modest manner only , that albeit he did not alleadge them to any such purpose , as to maintaine simulation in gods courses , yet non puto ( saith he ) ab exemplis illis alienum esse ut sancta dei simulatio in illis statuitur . and vorstius himselfe acknowledgeth that simulation may be attributed unto god , and i think he doth not meane it of any unholy simulation , and that he thinks god may signify , that he willeth something , which indeed he willeth not . now judge i pray of the spirit of this man , that taketh such base courses , to calumniate both the servants of god , ( who are now at peace with god , but his malice is not at peace with them ) and through their sides , the truth of god also . but it may be this author relates it but from a second hand . but whosoever be the author , i pray judge accordingly of his rhetoricall flourish upon the back of this , in comparing this opinion of gods courses , which is no more piscators , than vorstius his , in some cases , with jesuites equivocation , and politicians holy-water and crafty dissimulations , with absolons feast , joabs congie , and hyaenaes teares ; because forsooth , god made shew to hezekiah , that he should live no longer , and to the ninevites , that their citty should be destroyed , though he had no such meaning , and all to stirre them up to turne unto god by hearty prayer and repentance , and that to lay this to the charge of the almighty , is farre from truth and honesty . discourse . subsect . iii. that which is usually said by such as maintaine the absolute decree , to cleare god from hypocrisy in these things , is , that god seriously wisheth the salvation of the reprobate , but not absolutely , he would have them to be saved , that are not saved ; but yet upon condition they will repent and believe ; and therefore though they doe perish , yet is god can did and sincere in his offers of salvation to them ; for therefore doe they perish because they performe not the condition , not because god offers not seriously salvation unto them . but this answer is too short . t is true indeed , god will have all men to be saved only upon condition they will believe and repent ; according to the speech of saint ambrose , deus vult omnes salvari si & ipsi velint ; for if he would absolutely have it so what can hinder it ? who hath resisted his will ? and it is true likewise that a conditionall promise may be seriouse as well as an absolute ; but then the condition must be possible unto them , to whom the offer and promise is made ; and the performance of the condition must be a part of gods will , as well as the salvation promised ; or else the promise cannot be candid and sincere . in substance it is all one , not to offer a curtesy at all and and to offer it under a condition not possible , and in circumstance it is farre better to deny a benefite absolutly , than so to promise it . for such a promise is a denyall under a colour of the contrary . the lawyers tell us that a contract sub conditione impraestabili nullus aestimatur : and the logicians , that propositio conditionalis quae habet annexam conditionem impossibilem , aequipollet simpliciter neganti . any offer which is made upon a condition not performeable by the party is equivalent to a bare negation . it is all one for a man to deny a piece of money flatly to one blind man , and to promise it to another blind man upon a condition that he will looke upon it with his eyes , and it is all one for a man that hath a daughter to bestow in marriage to tell the suitor i will giue you my daughter if you will but span the earth and touch the heavens with your finger ; and to tell him plainly , set your heart at rest i will never bestow her upon you . and thus have i shewed the contrariety of this opinion to the principall attributes of god : which is my second generall reason against it twisse . consideration . that salvation , and that by the ordinance of god , is only obtaineable by men of ripe years , by faith and repentance , as also , that in case every one should believe and repent , every one should be saved , is without question . for hath not our saviour professed , that whosoever believeth shall be saved ; and doth it not undeniably follow herehence , that it is gods will , that whosoever believeth shall be saved : neither is this any wish as this author faigneth , neither doth any of our divines say , that ever i read , or till now heard of , that god wisheth that all that believe shall be saved ; this being a most absurd speech and contradiction to the ordinance of god. for those things which god or man are said to wish , are such which doe not alwaies come to passe : but this ordinance of god , whosoever believeth shall be saved , is more stable than the covenant which god hath made with day and night . not any arminian that ever i read , doth expresse himselfe in so prostitute a manner , as to say , god seriously wisheth the salvation of reprobates , in case they believe . for he hath not wished , but ordained , and made it a positive law , that whosoever believeth shall be saved , and herehence it followeth , that if all and every one , from the beginning of the world to the end , shall believe in christ , all and every one of them shall be saved . but when they speake of velleity in god , or wishing , the object thereof they make not to be the salvation of men in case they repent , but absolutely the salvation of men : which kind of velleity , is resolved indeed in the issue , into a conditionate will , thus ; gods will is , that all shall be saved in case they repent : not thus , i doe wish that all may be saved in case they repent , according to the most absurd fiction of this author . at length he grants that god will have all men to be saved , only upon condition they will believe and repent ; and that conditionall promise may be serious , as well as an absolute : but then ( saith he ) the condition must be possible to them , to whom the offer and promise is made , and the performance of the condition must be a part of gods will , as well as the salvation promised , or else the promise cannot be candid and sincere . whereto i answer , that it is confessed on both sides , that god hath ordained , that all that believe shall be saved , and consequently it must be granted , that the promise of salvation hereupon , to wit , upon faith , must needs be candid and sincere , it being the promise of god. now shall we herehence inferre hand over head , that therefore the condition must be possible unto all , in spight of all other evidences to the contrary , though never so plainly and expressely laid downe unto us in holy scripture ; as namely , that a naturall man perceives not the things of god , they are foolishnesse unto him , neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . cor. . . that they that are in the flesh cannot please god. rom. . . that they who are accustomed to doe evill , can no more doe good , then a blackemore change his skinne , or the leopard his spots . jer. . . this is the immodest course of this author , to set up one piece of scripture , by his paltry consequences , to outface another , nothing lesse evident . notwithstanding this scripture discovereth unto us , how this impotency of doing good , is contracted unto us all , by sinning in adam , as whereupon we were bereaved of grace , and of the spirit of god : yet if he would deale fairely , and deny originall sinne , he should erre no more then pelagius did , and withall , he should have as much ingenuity as pelagius had : but now though equall to him in the one , yet is he inferiour to him in the other . but come we nearer to him than so ; what one of our divines denyeth the performance of this condition to be possible to al men ? but is it fit that he should talke of possibility ( as he doth at large , ) without any reference to the grace of god ? and dares he say that it is possible to any man , whether elect or reprobate , without grace ? i say he dares not say so much , though like enough , he and all the sect of them , have a good mind to it . what then is the issue of all this controversy between us , but to enquire what manner of grace that is , without which it cannot be , that any should believe ? is it only such a grace , as gives only power to believe ? this is no better than plain pelagianisme , as appears by austin de grat . christ . cont . pelag. & coelest . c. . and in the end , where he comes to make an overture for the compounding of the controversy between them : or , is it some other grace prevenient , working only morally by way of perswasion ? this also appears clearely to have been the opinion of pelagius , in the same book of austin cap. . and he challengeth him to the acknowledging of another manner of grace , if he will not only be called a christian , but be indeed a christian : or lastly , is it only grace subsequent , by way of concourse , as to say , that god workes in us the act of believing , provided that we will believe ? this , this is that helena , that our homeborne arminians are inamoured with , meere pelagianisme : for who seeth not , that thus the grace of faith is conferred according to the acts of willing in men , which is as much as to say , t is conferred according to works . then marke yet farther absurdities ; for thus god hath not mercy on whom he will in giving faith , but on whom man will ; and what colour is there in this case , for any such objection to be made hereupon , as is devised by the apostle ? thou wilt say then , why doth he yet complaine , for who hath resisted his will ? further consider ; doth not god in this manner concurre to the most sinfull act that is commited in the world ? and why then doe we not as well say ; that the commission of sinne is not possible without grace subsequent ; for certainly t is not possible without divine concourse . lastly say farther , what is the grace required to the very act of willing ; doth god work this also by grace subsequent ? as much as to say , god works in us the act of willing , provided we worke it in our selves . such morsells as these can easily goe downe with these stomacks , which are apt to tumultuate upon the hearing that god hath power to make whom he will vessells of mercy , or vessells of wrath ; man must be the crafts-master of his own fortunes , and it were neither agreeable to gods mercy , nor to his justice , nor to his truth , unlesse their free-will hath the greatest glory of their conversion ; and god be admitted no more to the working of that act of faith , and of repentance , than to the working of the most sinfull act that is committed in the world . but i find it nothing strange , that as many as refuse to be in subjection unto god , have liberty enough to be made vassalls , and be brought in subjection unto their own corrupt and unreasonable fancies . for the word of god forsooth must be tempered , and interpreted according to the rules of their reason ; their reason must not be ordered , and squared according unto the word of god. but to proceed , the lawyers rule of the nullity of a contract , sub conditione impraestabili , is nothing to the present purpose : for the case is not alike between man and man ; and between god and man. god stands not at the pleasure of man , to contract in what manner he thinks good . and when he hath given him power to performe , whatsoever at any time he shall command him ; if man disable himselfe , shall god hereby be deprived of his right to command what he thinks good , and to punish for disobedience as he thinks good ? we read of some , that have cut off their thumbs , to disable themselves for military service : is it not just with men to punish such , as runne away after they have received their presse monies ? but there is yet another geofaile in the accommodation of this rule of law. for , conditio impraestabilis there , is such as cannot be performed by reason of impotency naturall ; but the impotency we speake of , in the case between god and man , is meerely impotency morall ; to wit , therefore they cannot , because they will not , were it not for the corruption of their will , no power were wanting in man to believe , and repent . but as austin saith , alleadged by the brittaine divines out of retract . . . voluntas sine charitate est tota vitiosa cupiditas ; and upon the d and th artic . de conversione , qua denotat immediatum opus dei hominem regenerantis . thesi . . they professe that in voluntate lapsa est potentia passiva ad esse hoc supernaturale extrinsecus adveniens , recipiendum , non autem activa , ad idem vel per se , vel cum alio producendum . jer. . . sana me domine & sanabor . and out of the synodicall epistle of the bishops of africa to the same purpose , they alleadge this passage , in vivificandis hominibus deus nullum initium voluntatis humanae expectat , sed ipsam voluntatem bonam faciendo vivificat . and also that of austin de corep . & gra . cap. . creatio in christo in libertatem voluntatis facta est , & sine nobis : si in libertatem , tum non ex libertate : si sine nobis , tum penes nos non est hoc dei opus impedire . be it all one to deny a piece of mony flatly to a blind man , and to promise it upon a condition , that he will looke upon it with his eyes : in like sort , as touching the reprobate , god hath no purpose to give salvation , but to deny it rather ; although he give this generall rule , that whosoever believeth shall be saved ; and therefore he gives this rule , because he purposeth by these means , to draw his elect unto christ by faith ; such a manner being most agreeable to their reasonable natures . and the reason why the rule is proposed to all , is , because partly gods ministers are not acquainted with gods counsell so farre , as to know whom he hath elected ; partly in respect that the more carnall men are , the more confident they are of performing any such duties , i meane of power to performe it , as namely to believe , to obey , to repent : partly to the end , that some hereby may be brought , ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quo mitius puniantur , as austin sometimes speaketh : as also because there is a kind of faith , performeable by a naturall man ; for we see both prophane persons and hypocrites , concurre in an outward profession of christianity , with the children of god : yet there is a great difference between blindnesse naturall , and blindnesse spirituall ; for in the one there is a will and desire to see , not so in the other ; the one being impotency naturall , the other morall . and in a word , there is no impotency morall in man , that hath not been brought upon him through sinne , either originall , of actuall . as for the spanning of the earth , or touching the heaven with ones finger , this never was in the power of man ; but to believe any word of god , i hope this author will not deny to have been sometimes in the power of man : nay he seems to be of opinion , that it is in the power of all men still , yet he would not be thought to deny originall sinne . one thing yet remaines to be considered ; he said to whom the promise of salvation is made , the performance of the condition , must be a part of gods will , as well as the salvation promised : but of what will of god must this be a part ? of his will as it signifies his commandement ? we grant it is ; for he commands , saying , repent and believe the gospell ; and by this commandement it is apparent , that it is the will of god , that it shall be the duty of every man , that hears this commandement , to obey it . but will he have it a part of gods will , to worke it effectually in all ? and how i pray ? either by way of grace prevenient , or by way of grace subsequent ? not by way of grace prevenient , for then all that heare the gospell , should believe and be saved ; for to worke faith effectually that way , is to worke the will unto faith. as for the working of it by way of grace subsequent ; this i have been lately taught by an arminian , to be no other than the working of it by way of concourse , and that depends on the will of man : and we doe not deny , but that if any reprobate will believe , god will concurre to the working of this beliefe ; but so we say , ( and no arminian that i know will deny it ) that if man will work any sinfull act , god will concurre to the working of it ; in as much as 't is generally held , that no acts of the creature , can be performed without gods concurrence thereunto . now how well , and how judicially this author hath plaid his part in shewing the contrariety of our opinion to the attributes of god , i am content the indifferent may judge . discourse . the third sort of reasons , namely , that it is contrary to the nature and end of gods gifts conferred upon men . sect . i. thirdly , it is contrary to the nature and end of gods giftes conferred upon , men which gifts are of two sorts : . gifts of nature , our creation , sustentation ; preservation ; together with health , strength , beauty , wisdome ; &c. . gifts of grace , which have a more immediate relation to everlasting life , and are means either , . of purchasing salvation , viz. the coming of christ into the world to be made a sacrifice for sinne ; or . . of applying the salvation purchased , namely , the ministry of the word and sacraments , the long suffering of god , the illumination of mens understandings , the plantation of many excellent vertues in their hearts , and many more of the like sort . what the true use and end of these gifts of nature and grace is , the scripture doth plainly and particularly shew us . first , for the gifts of nature , we find that they are bestowed on all that have them , for the encouraging and enabling of them to serve god , and save their soules : for , act. . , . the apostle saith , that god ( even in these times wherein he permitted the gentiles to walke in their own wayes , and with-held from them the light of his holy word , ) did give unto the people of the world , raine from heaven , and fruitfull seasons , filling their harts with food and gladnes , by these not leaving him selfe without witnesse : which implyes that he gave them these good things , make himselfe known unto them , and so that he might draw them to glorify him , according to their knowledge of him , acts. . . the apostle saith directly , that men are therefore made and placed in this world , and appointed to their severall times and dwellings ; that they may seeke god and finde him , that is , that they may serve him and save themselves ; for what is it to seeke god but to serve him ? and what is it to finde god , but to enjoy his face and favour here and in heaven ? caelum quippe & terra & mare , omnisque creatura quae videri & intelligi potest , ad hanc praecipue disposita est humani generis utilitatem ; & natura rationalis de contemplatione tot specierum , & de experimentis tot bonorum , de perceptione tot munerum , ad cultum & dilectionem sui imbueretur authoris , implentis omnia spiritu dei , in quo vivimus , movemur , & sumus . they are the words of prosper : therefore is every creature made and ordained , especially , that mankind which is indued with knowledge and ability to discourse , might by the sight of soe many goodly sorts of creatures , and the rast of so many blessings , be drawne to the love and service of his and their maker . and a little after , in the same chap. he saith , quod ergo in israel per constitutionem legis , et prophetica eloquia gerebatur , hoc in universis nationibus totius creaturae testimonia et bonitatis dei miracula semper egerunt : looke of what use the law and prophets were to the israelites ; of the same use were the gifts of creation and providence to the gentiles . god intended not to doe to the gentiles ( as the manichees say he dealt with the iewes ) to feed them and fat them up with more outward blessings , as so many hoggs and swines with husks and acornes , but to draw them up by these to an exspectation of better things , and a carefull endeavour to please god , that soe they might obtaine them . the end of all creatures and of all created gifts bestowed upon man is subordinate to the end of man ; mans end is to glorify god on earth and to enjoy perpetuall society with him in heaven . and their end is to encourage and direct man to atchieve that high and noble end which his creator hath appointed him . twisse consideration . here we have a roaving discourse : i must pick out of it what i can , to draw it up to some sense of argument : the ground of all the pith and substance of it , is two places in the acts , and two passages out of prosper . the first out of acts . , . god in times past suffered all the gentiles to walke in their own waies ; neverthelesse he left not himselfe without witnesse , in that he did good , and gave us raine from heaven , and fruitfull seasons , filling our hearts with food and gladnesse . now as for the first verse of these , he is content to say nothing at all thereof ; neither to deliver what those wayes were , nor in what sense god is said to suffer them to walke therein : which yet may easily be cleared , by comparing it with what is delivered , acts . . where the times preceding the gospell , are called times of ignorance . the times of this ignorance , and this agreeth with the comparative difference made between jewes and gentiles , psal . . . he sheweth his words unto iacob , his statutes and judgements unto israell . v. . he hath not dealt so with any nation : and as for his judgements , they have not known them . so that by the wayes of the gentiles , i understand the wayes of ignorance ; and these are no other than the wayes of darknesse , and can bring forth no better fruit , than the works of darknesse ; according to that of the apostle , ephes . . . ye were darknesse but now are light in the lord , walke therefore as children of the light . and againe , the night is passed , the day is at hand , let us therefore cast away the workes of darknesse , and put upon us the armour of light . and as for gods suffering of them to walke in those wayes , that is expressed in another ph●ase , acts . . thus , and the times of this ignorance god winked at ; and the meaning thereof appeares by the antithesis , in the adversative following , thus , but now he admonisheth every man every where to repent . thus formerly he dealt with the jewes , giving them a law , and sending prophets from time to time , to call them to obedience , to repentance : but such were not his gracious proceedings with the gentiles . but give we him leave to follow his own advantage . god left not himselfe without witnesse , in sending raine and fruitfull seasons . so it was in most places , i know none but egypt excepted , and that is to be excepted ; not only by evidence of phylosophicall inquisition after the cause thereof , in that question , utrum aegyptus sit impluviata ? but by evidence out of gods word . deut. . , , . the land whether thou goest to possesse , is not as the land of aegypt , from whence ye came , where thou sowedst thy seed , and wateredst it with thy foot as a garden of hearbs ; but the land whither ye goe to possesse it , is a land of mountaines and vallies , and drinketh water of the raine of heaven . this land doth the lord your god care for ; the eyes of the lord thy god are upon it , from the begining of the yeare to the end of the yeare . yet had they fruitfull seasons by the inundation of nilus ; but this was not so apt to dispose them , to take notice of a divine providence , as the common course of fructifying the land by raine . but yet the whole world in the frame thereof , was sufficient evidence of the eternall power and godhead . rom. . . and psal . . . the heavens declare the glory of god , and the firmament sheweth his handy worke . and albeit aristotle , the greatest of philosophers , maintained the eternity thereof without beginning ; yet he confesseth ingeniously in his book de coelo , that all that went before him maintained mundum genitum esse ; neither was his discourse of power to raze out that naturall instinct hereof , which seems to be graven in the hearts of men , and was the chiefe ground of that universall acknowledgment of a divine power supreame . now as god made himself known by his works so i nothing doubt but herewithall it was their duty to know him , and according to their knowledge to serve him and glorifie him , in acknowledgment of his glorious nature , so farre as they took notice of it ; but as for a rule whereby they should worship him , i know none that god had given them , or that they could gather from contemplation of the creatures . and surely the knowledge of god , as a creator only , is nothing sufficient to salvation ; but the knowledge of him as a redeemer : and therefore seeing the world by wisdome knew not god in the wisdome of god , it pleased god by the foolishnesse of preaching to save them that believe . cor. . . and the gentiles are set forth unto us in scripture , as such who knew not god. thes . . thes . . . and had they means sufficient without , and ability sufficient within to know him ? how could it be that none of them should know him ? was it because they would not ? how absurd a conceit is this to every one that understands , and considers common principles of philosophy , namely , that the things that are subject to our free-will , are contingentia aequaliter , as soon falling out one way as the other ? and it is well known not only what paines they have taken , but also with what strange successe , in searching after the nature of the first mover , as appears by aristotle in the th of his metaphysicks . yet did not he attain ( for ought ever i could find ) to the acknowledgement of his free agency , in the making of the world , and in the government thereof . yet were they inexcusable ( and thus farre their knowledge brought them . rom. . . ) in changing the glory of the incorruptible god , to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man , and of birds , and of fourefooted beasts , and of creeping things . the other place is acts . . that he takes to be more full for his purpose ; there the apostle speaking in an university , and which had been miserably corrupted with the atheisticall doctrine of aristotle , concerning an eternity of the world , and gods working necessarily , not freely , tending to the quenching of that light of naturall instinct , which is more or lesse found in all , as touching the divine providence ; yet the apostle even amongst such makes bold to suppose the creation of the world by god ; and that therefore he is lord of heaven and earth ; and also obtrudeth upon their naturall consciences , that god it is who giveth life , and breath , and all things ; and that he of one bloud ( whom we know to be adam ) made all mankind , to dwell on all the face of the earth ; that he hath assigned the seasons ( of the yeare , and what are they but spring , summer , autumne , winter , depending upon the motions of the heaven above ) and the bounds of their habitations , what is that but the severall habitable parts of the earth , for the habitation of all creatures , in whose nostrills is the breath of life ; not that every man , or nation , hath his place of habitation appoynted by god , ( though this also be true , but nothing agreeable to arminian divinity , which like an east wind , blasts the providence of god throughout ) this the apostle doth not obtrude upon them ; but the former generalls only ; and all this god hath done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they should seeke the lord ; now this may be understood two waies , either de facto , god did intend that this indeed should be done by them ; or ex officio , that it should be their duty : of this distinction this author takes no notice , but hand over head , takes it in the first sense , as it were in spight both of the apostle , saying , who hath resisted his will ? and of the psalmist , professing that what he willeth he hath done , both in heaven and earth . but indeed this is mans duty to endeavour to know him that made him : to this purpose he hath indued him with an understanding heart ; the spirit of man being as the lampe of god which searcheth all inwardnesse ; but as for the words following , if happily they might seeke after him and find him ; though he be not farre from every one of us ; so that though he be not farre from every one of us , in as much as in him we live and move , and have our being , and though they should seeke after him , yet upon an if , the apostle plainly puts the finding of him . for albeit durand professeth , that by the very light of nature we may attaine to the knowledge of god , touching these things that belong to the unity of his nature ; yet who ever amongst the gentiles attained hereunto , after all their search ? god hath set the world in mans heart , saith solomon , yet can he not find out the worke that he hath wrought from the beginning to the end : we are yet to seeke in the knowledge of the creature , how much more in the knowledge of the creator ? yet what shall all such knowledge profit a man , if he be ignorant in the knowledge of him as a redeemer ? i come to prosper l. . de vocatione gentium cap. . god hath so disposed of the world , as that the reasonable creature , by the contemplation of gods workes , and tast of so many blessings , imbuerctur , he doth not say might be drawne , but imbueretur , might be indued , to wit , with the knowledge of god in such sort , as to move him ad cultum & dilectionem dei. and all here mentioned both as touching the knowledge of god , and touching the service and love of him ; is but as the object of mans duty , signifying what ought to be done by him , not as the object of gods decree , as whereby he determined what should be done indeed by him . for had he determined this , who could have resisted him ? shall we say that voluntatis omnipotentis effectus impeditur a voluntate creaturae , as austin expresseth the absurdity hereof ? as for that which followeth , not in the same chapter , as this author writes , ( whether out of his own reading or mistaking anothers dictates i know not ) but in the chapter following , to wit , c. . the former place being indeed c. . according to my book , not cap. . as this author quotes it . and it is a truth considered in generall , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to seeke the lord , god did move both jewes and gentiles ; the jewes by his word over & above his workes ; but the gentiles only by his workes . but the manner of the revelation made to the one and to the other , was farre different , as the same author expresseth cap. . aliter eos juvit quos ad cognoscendum se caeli & terrae testimoniis conveniebat , aliter illos , quibus non solum elementorum famulatu sed etiam doctrina legis prophetarum , oraculis , miraculorum signis , & angelorum cooperationibus consulebat , &c. god ( he saith ) intended not to feed the gentiles with outward and more common blessings , but to draw them up by these to an expectation of better things , and a carefull endeavour to please god that they might obtain them . but what blessings had the gentiles more than common blessings ; doth he particulate any ? and as for the expectation of better things , than the things of this world , whereunto he pretends god doth draw them hereby ; what oracle hath he for this ? prosper in the book wherein he insists hath nothing at all of any possibility of knowledge of god unto salvation , arriveable unto by the meere contemplation of the creature ; neither have i found any such oracle throughout the nation of the arminians . nay he professeth plainly , that that knowledge of god , which is attaineable by the contemplation of the creature is not sufficient , unlesse he enjoy the true light , to discusse the darknesse of mans heart . de vocatione gent. l. . cap. . his words are these . tam acerbo natura humana vulnere sauciata est , ut ad cognitionem dei neminem contemplatio spontanea plenè valeat erudire , nisi obumbrationem cordis vera lux discusserit . and the apostle more than once professeth of the gentiles , that they were without hope ; and the tast of the powers of the world to come , seemes to be , by the apostle , ascribed to the word of god as the cause of it . heb. . yet 't is true , the heathen had odde notions of a condition after death , ( as many as believed the immortality of the soule ) but where i pray , was it upwards in heaven , or downewards rather under the earth , as styx , phlegeton ? and the campi elisii ? yet cicero looks upwards i confesse in his tusculans questions , but yet he goes no farther than the starres ; and this was their expectation of better things ; though adrian an emperour and a schollar too , bemoans himselfe , that he knew not what should become of his poore soule , animula vagula blandula , hospes comesque corporis ; quae tu abibis in loca , nec ut soles dabis jocos , horridula , rigida , nudula . but this author most confidently supposeth , that these better things are manifest by the creatures ; by the contemplation whereof , he might attaine to the knowledge of them : and then i doubt not , but he might entertaine a hope to attaine them ; provided he carefully endeavoured to please god , ( which this author conceaves to have been very possible ) and therewithall knew what that was , by doing whereof , he might be sure to please god : and all this he obtrudes upon his reader , by a most dissolute course , without one crumme of reason for it . in like sort , he discourseth very confidently of the end of man , without distinction of any relation hereof ; as if the end of man were equally known as well by light of nature , as by revelation of gods word . solomon telleth us , that god made all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill . was this known to the gentiles by the light of nature ? not one of all the philosophers of old acknowledged the worlds creation out of nothing ; and who ever manifested any such faith among them , as of enjoying a perpetuall society with god in heaven ? but it may be they all erred in interpreting the book of nature aright , and understanding the language thereof concerning this poynt of faith . this author may doe well to cleare the world of this errour , and that out of the book of the creatures , and then proceed to interpret unto us therehence , a generall resurrection also . and if he could find christ there too , togeather with the incarnation of the sonne of god , and his death and passion , resurrection and ascension , and sitting at the right hand of god to make request for us , and our justification by faith in him , togeather with regeneration also , and the generall judgement ; then no doubt though the gospell should continue to be a scandall to the jewes , yet surely through the incomprehensible benefit of his comfortable atchievements , it should continue no longer to be foolishnesse unto the gentiles ; only our faith should then cease , and be turned into sight , before we are brought to the seeing of the face of god. and yet i see no great need of christ , if it be in the power of an heathen man to know what it is to please god , and to have an heart to please him ; for certainly as many as know what it is to please god , and have an heart to please him , god will never hurt them , much lesse damne them to hell . yet the apostle telleth us , that they that are in the flesh cannot please god : but whether this author thinks heathens , to be amongst the number of them that are in the flesh , i know not . but i little wonder , when an arminian spirit of giddinesse hath possessed him , if he proceed to the confounding not only of the law with the gospell , but heathenisme also ( such as might be ) with christianity . but suppose a man might attaine to as much knowledge , by the meere contemplation of the book of nature , as we doe obtain by the revelation of gods word , yet we that conceive the knowledge of gods word to be no impediment to the absolutenesse of reprobation , must needs find our selves as much as nothing streightned herein , by this authors roaving discourse , as touching the generall providence of god in his works : as long as that of the apostle ( he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ) shall stand and be received for the word of god ; we shall never want ground for maintaining the absolutenesse both of election by the one , and by just proportion , of reprobation also by the other . for so long as god doth absolutely , and according to the meere pleasure of his will , decree to have mercy upon some , by giving them faith and repentance , for the curing of their infidelity and hardnesse of heart , this is very sufficient to maintain the absolutenesse of election unto grace , and if god doth absolutely , and according to the meere pleasure of his will decree , to harden others , by denying them the grace of faith and repentance , so to leave their naturall infidelity and hardnesse of heart uncured , this shall be as sufficient to maintaine the absolutenesse of reprobation from grace . as for election unto salvation , though the decree thereof can admit no cause , yet we say that god by this decree , doth not decree to bestow salvation on any man of ripe yeares , but by way of reward of faith , repentance , and good workes : as for the decree of reprobation from glory , and to damnation ; though the decree hath no cause , yet we say that god by this decree , doth not decree to inflict damnation on any , but for sinne unrepented of : only i confesse , that as touching the interpretation of those words of saint paul , ( he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ) i doe not know how it may be charmed by good witts , least it may seem repugnant to some reason gathered by contemplation of the creatures ; for some affect , such a course in these daies , namely to temper gods word according to the light of naturall reason ; whereas in the simplicity of institution wherein i have been brought up , i have been taught that the light of naturall reason ought rather to be regulated by the word of god. discourse . sect . ii. now for the gifts of grace , they are all given to them that enjoy them for the same use and end also . . christ came into the world , not that he might be a rock of offence , at which the greater part of men might stumble and fall ; but shed his bloud , and by his bloudshed to purchase salvation unto all mankind , not only for those that are saved , but for those also who through their wilfull impenitency and unbeliefe are not saved ; as we may , see , iohn . . . god sent his sonne ( saith our saviour ) into the world , not to condemne the world , but that the world through him might be saved ; in which words the end of his coming into the world is set downe ; . negatively [ not to condemne the world . ] . affirmatively . [ but that the world through him might be saved ] and therefore fully . the like speech we have , iohn . . i came not to judg the world but to save it . these negatives joyned with the affirmative deliveryes of the end of christs comming shew that the salvation of all men was the only end of his coming , the end exclusively , no other end was properly intended but this . the sonne of man came to seeke and to save that which was lost luk. . . that is every man because every man was lost . and acts . . to you hath god sent his sonne iesus to blesse you in turning every one of you from your iniquityes [ every one ] that is , you that reject him , as well as you that receive him . the end of christs coming then into the world was the salvation of all and every one therein . twisse consideration . if the gifts of grace are given for the same use and end , for which was given creation and providence to the gentiles ; then look to what end the gifts of grace are given , to the same end tends the making and governing of the world by god : as much as to say , look to what end tends the book of gods word , to the same end tends the book of gods creatures . and like as christ came into the world for the salvation of all , and every one . so the book of gods creatures was given for the same end , namely , for the salvation of all and every one ; and consequently it followeth ( seeing gods wisdome prescribes congruous means to the end intended by him ) that the book of the creatures , is a very congruous means for the salvation of all and every one . but whether this author will have that knowledge of god revealed in the book of the creatures , tend only to this end , like as he saith , christ came into the world , only to this end , i know not : sure i am that saint paul saith , that the invisible things of god are made manifest from the creation in his works , even his eternall power and godhead , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they might be without excuse . in the next place he tells us positively , that christ came not into the world , that he might be a rock of offence , at which the greater part of men might stumble and fall ; but to shed his bloud , and by his bloudshed to purchase salvation for all mankind , &c. but this antithesis which here he makes , is stark naught ; for this very shedding of his bloud , in a word christ crucified , this very thing ( i say ) was it , that was both a scandall to the jewes , and foolishnesse to the gentiles . cor. . . and that not only the greater part of men might stumble and fall at this rock of offence , but all and every one , i thought it had been without all question : nay undoubtedly all had stumbled , that is , had been taken with unbeliefe , if god in mercy had not provided better for them by the power of his grace . for dare any arminian deny faith to be the gift of god ? but was it not gods will that not only the greater part might stumble , but that indeed they should de facto stumble at this rock , and fall ; and consequently that christ came into the world , with such a purpose of god concerning them ? i prove it thus ; first out of isaiah . . . he shall be as a stone of stumbling , and a rock of offence to both the houses of israel , for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of ierusalem . . againe , pet. . . the apostle professeth , that to them who are disobedient , christ is made a stone to stumble at , and a rock of offence , being disobedient : and addeth expressely , that hereunto they were ordained . . thirdly , did not god intend that they should not be of god , as many as are not regenerated by him ? if he did intend this , ( and how can a man be of god , but by gods making , and how is this possible to be done , without god his intending of it ? ) then also he did intend they should not heare christs words , and consequently , that they should stumble at him ; for therefore men heare not christs words , because they are not of god. iohn . . yet let him winne his opinion by argument , and weare it . but that out of iohn . . god sent his sonne into the world , not to condemne the world but that the world should be saved by him , is a great deale too short to make the child a coate ; likewise that iohn . . is of no farther extent . the terme world in each is an indefinite terme , and it is in a contingent matter , and therefore it is equivalent only to a particular proposition , and not to an universall ; had it been delivered not of the world only , but of all the world , nor so only , but of all men in the world ? yet prosper , so much insisted upon by this author , hath provided to our hands a faire interpretation , namely , that all men in scripture phrase , is taken sometimes for all the elect only . as de vocatione gent. l. . c. . apparuit gratia salutaris dei omnibus hominibus , & tamen ministri gratiae odio erant omnibus hominibus : habente quidem salutis suae damnum rebellium portione , sed obtinente plenitudinis censum fidelium dignitate . and lib. . c. . habet ergo populus dei plenitudinem in electis & praescitis atque ab hominum generalitate discretis , specialis quaedam est universitas . yet in my judgement , our saviours words in each place tend only to shew , that his coming into the world in humility , was only to performe the worke of mans redemption ; and not to pronounce the sentence of condemnation on any , as he shall doe at the last judgement , when he shall come in glory . and yet because much is to be done for a quiet life , let us distinguish the benefits of christs merits ; salvation we know is to be conferred on none of ripe yeares , but such as believe and repent ; and undoubtedly if all and every one should believe and repent , all and every one should be saved by him : on the other side , if not one should believe and repent , not one should be saved by him . but what doth this author think of faith and repentance ? are these also benefits purchased unto us by the merits of christ ? this is the poynt that puts all the arminians to their purgation . if they be so , then i demand , whether christ purchased these to be obtained by all and every one , absolutely or conditionally ? if absolutely , then all and every one must have faith and repentance ; and consequently , all and every one must be saved : if only conditionally , then let them name upon what condition the gift of faith is to be obtained , and let them look to it , how they avoyd the giving of grace according to mens works , which in the phrase of the ancients , is the giving of grace according to mens merits . the sonne of man came to seeke that which was lost . luk. . . we grant that ; but when it is added , that is every man , we deny this : as for the reason added , for every man was lost ; put these propositions into a syllogisme , and see what stuffe it will make ; thus , christ came to save that which was lost ; every man was lost ; therefore christ came to save every man. now let every young sophister judge , whether here be not foure termes ; had it been said , that christ came to save every one that is lost , the place had been indeed alleadged to the purpose . it is also said , i am not sent but to the lost sheepe of the house of israel ; let this be understood only as touching the exercising of christs ministry among them ; for this author ( i suppose ) will not say he was sent to redeem them only ; will it herehence follow , that seeing every one of them was lost , therefore he exercised his ministry unto every one of them ? how improbable a thing is this ? how much lesse did he exercise his ministry amongst the twelve tribes dispersed in pontus , galatia , cappadocia , &c. yet my former distinction may serve to accommodate the businesse , and to cleare the truth , although we prove so liberall as to grant him his hearts desire . lastly as touching that , acts . . to you hath god sent his sonne to blesse you , in turning every one of you from your iniquities ; every one of you , that is , saith this authors glosse , as well you that receive him , as you that receive him not . but let us not carry the matter in hugger mugger , without distinction . if this were the end of christs coming into the world , then it was intended by some one or other , and that must needs be god ; now did god intend that they should be turned from their iniquities absolutely or conditionally ? if absolutely then all must be turned from them ; if conditionally , then shew what that condition is ; if faith , we willingly grant , that as many as believe shall be blessed , and turned from their iniquities . for christ indeed dyed for this end , namely , to redeeme us from our iniquities , and to purge us a peculiar people unto himselfe zealous of good workes ; but as for faith and repentance which is also a gift of christ , christ did not purchase this for all absolutely , for if he did then all should believe ; if conditionally , then upon some work of man , and consequently the gift and grace of faith , shall be bestowed according unto mans works ; which is expresse pelagianisme . to the contrary , that christ died not for all ; i prove thus : first , the reason why none can lay any thing to the charge of gods elect , is because christ died for them rom. . if therefore christ died for all , none can lay any thing to the charge of a reprobate , more then to the charge of gods elect. secondly , christ prayed only for those who either did or should believe in him ; and for whom he prayed for them only he sanctified himselfe . ioh. . and what is the meaning of the sanctifying of himselfe for them , but that he meant to offer up himselfe in sacrifice upon the crosse for them ; as maldonate confesseth , was the joynt interpretation of all the fathers , whom he had read . thirdly , did he dye only for all then living , or which should afterwards be brought forth into the world , or for all from the beginning of the world ? if so , then he dyed for all those that already were damned . fourthly , if he dyed for them , then christ hath made satisfaction for their sinnes ; and is it decent that any man should fry in hell , for those sinnes for which christ hath satisfied ? lastly , if christ hath died for all , then hath he merited salvation for all ; and shall any faile of that salvation which christ hath merited for them ? is it decent that god the father , should deale with christ his sonne , not according to the exigence of his merits ? if we had merited salvation for our selves would god in justice have denied it unto us ? why then should he deny any man salvation , in case christ hath merited salvation for him ? discourse . sect . iii. . the ministry of the word and sacraments is given also to the same end , and is in its owne proper nature and use an instrument of conveying the spirit of regeneration to those that enjoy it , and to all those : i cannot have better proofes for this than those that our reverend divines of dort have gathered to my hands . isa . . . this is my covenant with them ( sayth the lord ) my spirit which is upon thee , and my words which i have put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seed , nor seeds seed for ever . hinc patet ( say they ) from these words it appears , that the word and spirit are joyned together in the ministry of the word , with an inseperable bond by promise of god. hence it is that the ministers of the new testament are called ministers not of the letter but of the spirit , not of the letter which kills , but of the spirit which gives life : and the ministry of the gospell is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the same place ; v. . the ministry of the spirit . hence is the gospell called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 grace bringing salvation , tit. . . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of reconciliation . cor. . . to these let me adde pet. . . where the word is called the seed of the new birth , and cor. . . where ministers are called embassadours for christ , to beseech men to be reconciled to god ; and they are so called to shew that the word preached , is by gods appointment an instrument to make men new creatures , and that the matter of ministers errand is peace and reconciliation ; and the proper fruit of it in gods intent is not the obduration and destruction , but the conversion and salvation of men . the same men out of ioh. . . ( if i had not come and spoken to them , they should not have had sinne , but now they have no cloake for their sinne ) doe say it is evident , that christ in his preaching did administer so much inward grace , as was sufficient to convince those that rejected the gospell of positive unbeliefe , and so to render them obnoxious to just punishment , and consequently ( say i ) so much as sufficed by their good husbandry , to have converted and saved them . for that grace leaves none inexcusable , which is unsufficient to convert them . i will conclude that which they say of this gratious intention of god in the ministry of the word , with that speech of prosper cited by them in the same place ; non omnes vocari ad gratiam eos , quibus omnibus evangelium praedicatur , nonrecte dicitur ; etiamsi sint qui evangelio non obaudiant . they that say , that all those to whom the gospell is preached ( even those that obay not the gospell ) are not called to grace , they say an untruth . god looks for grapes ( sayth the text ) isai . . . what doth this imply ? but that it was gods principall aime in the husbandry which he bestowed upon the church of israell , that it should bring forth good fruit , though in the end it did not . how oft would i have gathered you , sayth christ to jerusalem , math. . . and in john , . . these things have i spoken to you that ye might be saved , but ye will not come unto me that ye might have life . v. . intimating no lesse than this that it was his full intent by his preaching to gather and to save those very particular men that in the end were not gathered nor saved through their neglect or contempt of christs ministry , twisse consideration . no question but the word of god is the sword of the spirit . ephes . . and the law of the lord is a perfect law , converting the soule , psal . . and it seemes to be delivered in opposition to the book of the creatures , as if he had said , though the heavens declare the glory of god , and the firmament sheweth his handy work , yet this is the peculiar prerogative of the book of gods word , and the doctrine contained therein , that it converteth the soule : and upon this is grounded the great preferment of the jews above the gentiles , chiefely that unto them were committed the oracles of god. yet this author is content to make no difference , between the use and end of the book of creatures , and the book of gods word ; but professeth the use and end of both , to be the very same . the passage alleadged out of the suffrages of the brittain divines , is most aliene from the present purpose : for the thesis of theirs , proceedeth of the administration of grace by the word , not of regeneration , but of conviction of all such , who believe not , and continue impenitent ; that through their own fault , they perish for neglecting or contemning the gospell . in ecclesia ubi , juxta promissum hoc evangelii , salus omnibus offertur , ea est administratio gratiae , quae sufficit ad convincendos omnes impenitentes & incredulos , quod sua culpa voluntaria , & vel neglectu , vel contemptu evangelii perierint , & oblatum beneficium amiserint . and in the explication of this thesis , they propose two things to be cleared . . that some measure of grace is ordinarily administred in the ministry of the gospell ; aliquam mensuram gratiae ordinarie in ministerio evangelii administrari : and for proofe hereof alone , they alleadge this passage out of isai . . ult . this is my covenant with them saith the lord , my spirit which is upon thee , and my words which i have put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth : so that the word and spirit are joyned togeather alwaies ; but not alwaies to regenerate ; but either to regenerate and bring to obedience , or to convict of disobedience . and accordingly , the ministers of the new testament , are called ministers not of the letter , but of the spirit : that is not of the law ; the ministry whereof , is not the ministry of the spirit , but yet this is rightly to be understood , to wit , of the spirit of adoption , for undoubtedly even the ministry of the law , is the ministry of the spirit also , but of the spirit of bondage , to hold men under feare : it is called the ministry of condemnation , and the reason hereof i conceive to be , because god doth not concurre with the ministry of the law , by the holy spirit , to worke any man to the performance of the condition of the law , which is exact and perfect obedience : but thus he doth concurre with the ministry of the gospell , namely , by his spirit , to work men to the performance of the condition thereof , which is faith in christ , and true repentance , therefore the letter , to wit of the law , is called a killing letter ; but the gospell is joyned with a quickning spirit , and therefore piscator conceives , that the gospell in this place is called by the name of the spirit . soe then the gospell giveth life by the spirit which accompanyeth the ministry thereof ; but to whom ? to all , as this author supposeth ? nothing lesse , the generall experience of the world doth manifest the untruth thereof . but this author is ready to suppose ( though not very forward to speake out in this ) that it would regenerate if men were not defective to them selves . so then man must first performe some worke on his part , and then the spirit of the gospell doth regenerate them : as much as to say the grace of regeneration , is dispensed by god according to some work of man , which in plain termes pelagius durst not professe , but joyned with others to anathematize it in the synod of palastine . yet this doctrine is the very helena wherewith the arminians are enamored . now the apostle professeth in plaine termes of himselfe and his fellow-labourers , we are unto god the sweet savour of christ in them that are saved , and in them which perish ; to the one we are the savour of death unto death and to the other a savour of life unto life . so then it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tit. . . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word of reconciliation . cor. . . and the seed of the new birth . pet. . . as where by god regenerates man ; according to that of saint iames , of his owne will hath he begotten us by the word of truth , iam. . . not whereby man doth regenerate himselfe according to the arminian tenet , whose doctrine it is , that god workes in us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle credere and resipiscere modò velimus . now as god hath mercy on wom he will in converting his heart unto obedience , of faith and repentance , rom. . . and . . so god regenerates whom he will. so that we all grant that gods word is by gods appointment an instrument to make men new creatures . but whom ? not all indifferently , but the elect of god called the sheepe of christ ; iohn . . other sheepe have i which are not of this fold , them also must i bring and they shall heare my voyce . marke i pray , who they are that shall heare christs voyce , to wit , christs sheepe , called also christs people . acts. . , . then said the lord to paul by night in a vision feare not but speake and hold not thy peace , for i am with thee and no man shall lay hands on thee to hurt thee , for i have much people in this citty . paul knew not who these were , yet for their sakes being thus encouraged , he would goe on to preach , and to become all things to all men , that he might save some . cor. . . and who were these some , but the elect , as elsewhere he signifies , saying , i endure all things for the elects sake , called also the children of god. ioh. . , . this he spake not of himselfe , but being high-priest that same yeare , he prophesyed that jesus should dye for that nation , and not for that nation only , but that he should gather together in one , the children of god which were scattererd . this gathering was to be performed by the word the instrument , by gods appoyntment , to make men new creatures : but upon whom should it worke effectually ? the text plainly calleth them , and setts them forth unto us , by the name of gods children . the same men ( saith this author ) that is , our brittaine divines at the synod of dort , doe say out of iohn . . . ( if i had not come and spoken to them , they should not have had sinne , but now they have no cloake for their sinne ) it is evident that christ in his preaching did administer so much inward grace as was sufficient to convince those that rejected the gospell of positive unbeliefe , and so to render them obnoxious to just punishment ; now hence this author frames this inference , and consequently ( i say ) so much as sufficed by their good husbandry , to have converted & saved them ; for that grace leaves none unexcusable which is insufficient to convert them . now to this i answer , if our divines had acknowledged any such consequence to be just , they had a faire calling to make profession of it at that time . but consider we the rest of their thesis delivered in the same place . the first is this , ex speciali amore & intentione tum dei patris tum chisti , mortuus est christus pro electis , ut illis remiffionem peccatorum & salutem aeternam reipsa obtineret , & infallibiliter conferret . it was of the intention and speciall love of god the father and god the sonne , that christ should dye for the elect , effectually to procure for them , and infallibly to conferre on them pardon of sinne , and salvation . the second is this , ex hoc eodem amore per & propter meritum & intercessionem christi dantur iisdem electis fides , & perseverantia , caeteraque omnia per quae conditio foederis impletur , & beneficium promissum , id est , vita aeterna infallibiliter obtinetur : out of the same love through and for christ are given , to the same elect , faith and perseverance , and all other things , whereby the condition of the covenant is fulfilled . the third is this , deus lapsi generis humani misereatus , misit filium suum qui seipsum dedit pretium redemptionis pro peccatis totius mundi ; god having compassion on mankind fallen , sent his sonne who gave himselfe , a price of redemption for the sinnes of the whole world : this i understand of the sufficiency of the price given , whereby it comes to passe , that christ is remedium universo generi humano applicabile : as i have received from the mouth of one of those , and a principall one , in such sort , that if all the world should believe , all the world should be saved : now marke i pray , how they carry themselves in the explication of this thesis , and what difference they put betweene christs dying for the elect , and his dying for others . sic ergo pro omnibus mortuus est ut omnes & singuli mediante fide possint virtute 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hujus remissionem peceatorum & vitam aeternam consequi : sic pro electis est mortuus ut ex merito mortis ejus secundum aeternū dei beneplacitum specialiter illis destinato & fidem infallibiliter obtineant & vitam aeternā . so christ died for all that all & every one by faith intervening , may by vertue of this redemption , obtaine pardon of sinne , and salvation ; the meaning whereof is this , that every one may obtaine remission of sinne and salvation in case he doth believe , not that they have power to believe ; for they professe immediatly before , that whereas god hath ordained that after the acceptation of christs sacrifice , remission of sinne and salvation , shall be conferred on none , but such as believe on the redeemer , here the secret decree of election openeth it selfe , when the price which was paid for all ( marke the explication hereof in the words following ) and which unto all believers shall redound , certainly to eternall salvation , yet it doth not profit all , because it is not given to all to fulfill the condition of this covenant ; as much as to say , because faith is not given to all . the fourth thesis . in hoc merito mortis christi fundatur universale promissum evangelicum juxta quod omnes in christum credentes remissionem peccatorum & vitam aeternam consequantur . in this merit of christ , is founded that universall promise of the gospell , according whereto all that believe in christ shall obtaine pardon of sinne , and everlasting life . the fifth thesis , is that which this author insists upon , but preposterously applyed by him ; the thesis runs thus , in ecclesia ubi juxta promissum hoc salus omnibus effertur , ea est administratio gratiae quae sufficit ad convincendos omnes impoenitentes & incredulos , quod suâ culpa voluntaria & neglectu vel contemptu evangelii perierint . take the last thesis in the last place . non obstante hoc pacto universali de salvandis credentibus , deus nulle pacto aut promisso tenetur evangelium aut gratiam salutiferam omnibus & singulis communicare . notwithstanding this generall covenant of saving believers , god is not tied by any covenant or promise to communicate the gospell and saving grace to all and every one . and that he bestowes it on some , passing by others , it is of divine mercy and liberty . but let us examine the sobriety of the consequence , which this author makes : namely , that if the grace administred in the gospell , be sufficient to convict them who resist it of positive unbeliefe , then it is sufficient also by their good husbandry to convert them . marke i pray the nature of grace here shaped thus , sufficient by their good husbandry ( to wit , by the good husbandry of the hearers ) to convert them . now wherein doth this conversion consist ? surely in believing , for of unbeliefe they are convicted by the gospell , as many as contemne or neglect it : and hence he inferres , that it was sufficient to convert them , which must be by the antithesis , to bring them to faith , provided that they ( that is the hearers ) play the good husbands in the using of it ; but what is it to play the good husbands ? these and such like phrasiologies , are the usuall sculking courses of the arminians , like the inke which the fish saepia casts forth , that she may thereby the better hide her selfe , and escape from the hands of the fisher . but certainly it must be some worke or other to be performed by the hearer , whereby he shall be brought to faith : therefore i say , it is either the worke of faith it selfe , or some other worke preceding it : not of faith it selfe , for faith it selfe , cannot in reason be said to be a worke , whereby a man is brought to faith . secondly , herehence it followeth , that mans good husbandry , being here distinguished from the worke of faith it selfe , the act of faith is hereby made the work of mans will , not of gods grace : if some work preceding faith , whereupon faith is wrought by grace , it followeth that the grace of faith , is given according to mans works : this is the foule issue of their tenet , making faith either not at all the worke of god , or if wrought by god , to be wrought according to mans worke . and thus they shape the grace of god , conferring faith , not only towards reprobates , but also towards the elect . now observe i beseech you , how our brittaine divines doe purposely reject this doctrine in the synod of dort art . . in their third thesis , of those which are rejected by them . the thesis which they reject is , positis omnibus gratiae operationibus quibus deus ad efficiendam hanc conversionem utitur , voluntatem hominis relinqui in aequilibrio : velitne credere vel non credere convertete se ad deum vel non convertere . all the operations of grace supposed , the will of man is left in an even ballance , whether he will believe or no , whether he will convert himselfe to god or no : this is the very opinion of this author , against which our worthy divines dispute there in this manner . if this were so , then it would follow that god by his grace , is not the principall cause of mans believing and conversion , but man by his free will rather : for in this case god shall not predominantly worke mans conversion , but upon condition only , to wit , in case the will first move it selfe whereby the lesse worke is given to god , and the greater worke to man , to wit in mans conversion . . herehence it will follow that god gives no more grace to the elect than to the reprobate , and that the elect are not bound to be more thankefull to god than the non-elect , because the worke of god in both is no other than to place the will in an even ballance . . the grace of conversion is given with an intention that it shall prove effectuall and to move , nay rather to bring man to the producing of the act of faith , in such sort , as it cannot be made in vaine ; haec gratia a nullo duro corde respuitur ideo quippe tribuitur ut cordis duritia primitus auferatur . and seeing the good husbandry of mans consists in obedience to the gospell it appears hereby , that the grace they speake of is no other than the gospell , exhorting to repentance , and this we confesse is sufficient in a certain kind , to wit , in the kind of instruction and exhortation : and is not this sufficient to convict of unbeliefe as many as wilfully resist it , and such is the condition of all in hearing the gospell , to whom god gives not the grace of conversion , for as saint austin saith , libertas sine gratiâ non est libertas sed contumacia , and no other impotency of beliefe doe we ascribe to a naturall man , but such as consists in contumacy , which is meerely a fault and corruption of the will , not the defect of any naturall power : and therefore as i said , the impotemcy of converting to god by faith and repentance , is impotency morall , consisting meerely in the corruption of the will ; and there is no question but every man hath as much power to believe as simon magus , of whom it is said that he believed . fides in voluntate est ( saith austin ) & credimus quando volumus , but the will of man is so corrupt , that without speciall preparation by gods grace , it is rather wilfully set to walke in the waies of flesh and bloud , than obsequious to that which is good : we make no question but that as prosper saith , every one that heareth the gospell , is thereby called unto grace , even to obtaine pardon of sinne and salvation upon his faith in christ and is called upon also to believe : but withall we say with our brittaine divines , art. . de conversione thesi a. in the explication thereof , that god gives his elect not only posse credere si velint ( which in austins opinion lib. . de gen . contra manic . cap. . and de praedest . sanct. cap. . is common to all , ) but velle credere , nay they spare not to professe that if god should worke in us only posse credere , posse convertere , and leave the act of believing and converting to mans free will , we should all doe as adam did ; and fall from god through our free will , and never bring this possibility into act ; take their own words . quod si vires quasdam infundendo daret deus tantum posse credere , posse convertere , ipsum interim actum committeret libero hominum arbitrio , certe quod primus parens fecit faceremus omnes : libero arbitrio a deo deficeremus nec possibilitatem hanc in actum perduceremus . haec itaque eximia est illa specialis gratia qua non modo possunt credere si velint , sed & volunt cum possunt . phil. . . dat deus nobis & velle & perficere . as for that which he discourseth of gods principall aime , that the church of israell should bring forth good fruit : let us speake plainly , and not cheat our selves first , and then become impostors unto others : was it that which god did principally intend ? gods intentions are his decrees , now if god did decree they should bring forth fruit de facto , who hath resisted his will ? nay take their own rules according to their doctrine of scientia media . why did god give them only such a grace to move them unto fruitfulnes , which he foresaw they would resist ? and refuse to give such grace , as he foresaw would not be resisted , and that without all prejudice to their wills ? let thē answer unto this , for that god in the storehouse of his wisdome hath such courses as being used , he foreseeth infalliby that any sin will be hindred , arminius acknowledgeth , as i have oftē alleadged him . but we may safely say , . that god intended it should be their duty to bring forth fruit . . if he did farther intend that the church of israel should de facto bring forth fruit , this he did bring to passe also : but withall let us consider what the apostle teacheth us , and take that along with us also , namely , that all are not israel , that are of israel ; and so in his elect he effecteth this . . i doubt not but this is pronounced chiefely for the elects sake , and though they are not as yet so fruitfull as they should be , yet i nothing doubt , but this passionate expostulation , was a means to turne them to the lord , that is , some of them : for god calls them not all at once , but some at one houre of the day , some at another . . it might be a means to bring others also , though not to true conversion , yet ad exteriorem vitae emendationem . as for that of our saviour over jerusalem math. . . that is of another condition in two respects . jerusalem neither saw his teares , nor heard his bemoaning of it ; but we heare of it , and read it in his word , and it is equally effectuall with the elect of god , and others also ; as the expostulation we read isai . . secondly our saviour was a man as well as god , and though the sonne of god , yet made under the law , and accordingly as much bound to desire and endeavour the salvation of all amongst whom he was sent , as any prophet , or apostle , or minister of gods word . that in the . ioh. . these things have i spoken unto you , that ye might be saved ; what is the meaning thereof but this . these things have i spoken unto you , exhorting you to believe , that ye might be saved ; according to that v. . he that heareth me , and believeth him that sent me , hath everlasting life , and shall not come into condemnation , but hath passed from death to life : and by the words following , in the words alleadged by him it appears , that there is no other intention of salvation meant , than in case they believe : but ye will not come unto me that ye might have life , v. . and as before i said , christ being made under the law , was bound , as well as we are , to desire the salvation of his brethren , that is to desire and labour the conversion of those to whom he was sent , that so they might be saved . discourse . sect . iv. this is also the use and end for which the sacraments were ordained , as we may see luk. . . where we have these wordes , but the scribes and pharisees and expounders of the law despised the councell of god against them selves , and were not baptized of iohn . in which words thus much is plainly included , that it was gods counsell and purpose in iohns baptisme , to bring them to christ , and in him to heaven ; much more is it in the end of christs baptisme which is more excellent than iohns was , not in substance but in the fulnesse of grace administred , and dispensed by it . all that have been baptized into christ ( sayth the apostle ) have been baptized unto his death . rom. . . and gal. . . all ye that are baptized into christ have put on christ , the very phrases there used shew , that baptisme is in its originall intention an instrument of uniting men to christ and giving them communion with him in the benefits of his death : except a man be borne of water ( saith christ ) and of the spirit , he cannot &c. ioh. . . in which words are delivered two things . . the necessity of regeneration ; ( except a man be born again . ) . the working causes of it , efficient , the spirit of god , instrumentall , the sacrament of baptisme , there called water from the outward matter of it . baptisme therefore is appointed to be a means of regeneration to all those that are baptized , and doth effect it in all that doe not put an obstacle in the way to hinder it . for this cause doth the apostell dignifye it ( the layer of regeneration ) titus . . i will shut up this with acts. . . where peter sayth , repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sinnes : plainly implying that therefore is baptisme ordained to be received that those who doe receive it might have their sinnes remitted . the patience of god also , which is another singular donation and gift of god to men , is exercised to this very end , as appeares rom. . . despisest thou the riches of his goodnesse , and forbearance , and long suffering , not knowing that the goodnesse of god leadeth thee to repentance ? but thou , after thy hardnesse of heart that canst not repent , heapest up &c. in these words we may note for our purpose , . gods end and intent in forbearing sinners , and that is the leading of them to repentance , and so to salvation , ( for repentance is per se ordinata ad salutem as a means to the end . ) . the persons to whom god intends this good by his forbearance , and they are such as dispise the riches of his goodnesse , and have hard and impenitent hearts . . the issue and event of this theire contempt of gods patience , and that is a treasuring up wrath unto themselves against the day of wrath . out of all which laid togeher ariseth thus much , that god by sparing wicked men , who have hard and impenitent hearts , intends their everlasting good , though they , by the abuse of his patience , and refusall to repent , doe treasure up to themselues wrath and eternall misery . the like to this is delivered in the peter . . god is not slack , ( as some men count slacknesse ) but patient toward us , that is , us men . and why patient towards us ? because he would have none to perish . the end therefore of gods patience is mans repentance and salvation . twisse . consideration . though this author doth little answer your expectation , in confining himselfe to reprobation , therein to give you satisfaction , as touching the reason why he hath changed his mind in certain controversies ; yet it may be , his purpose is to make you amends , by acquainting you with some misteries of his , concerning baptisme , out of luk. . . where it is said of the scribes and pharises , that in refusing to be baptized of iohn , they despised the counsell of god against themselves ; hence he inferres , that it was gods counsell and purpose in iohns baptisme , to bring them to christ , and in him to heaven : as much as to say god purposed to bring them to christ and to heaven , but they would not ; and so it came to passe that omnipotentis dei voluntatis effectus , was hindered by the will of the creature , which austin accounted a very foule absurdity , as if god were not able to bring them to christ : yet our saviour professeth , that like as none can come unto him except the father draw him , so on the other side , every one that the father giveth me comes unto me , ioh. . and the apostle saith , who hath resisted his will ? omnipotente facilitate convertit , saith austin , & ex nolentibus volentes facit . but as for the text , suppose the evangelist had called it the purpose of god , yet the object of his purpose is not expressed , and why might it not be gods purpose to make it their duty to hearken to iohn , and to submit to the lords ordinance administred by iohn , as well as gods purpose that they should obey him , and be perswaded to be baptized by him : yea and much rather too , considering the foule absurdity wherewith this interpretation is charged , as formerly i have shewed ; and he must have the stomack of an ostrich , that can digest it . but where i pray was it ever read or heard before , that gods purpose is at any time despised ? gods counsell indeed is too often despised , as when he saith , i councell thee to buy of mee gold , &c. revel . . and the counsell of god signifieth no other will of god , than is the will of commandement , of admonition , of exhortation , and such like . but whereas he talkes of a greater fulnesse of grace in the baptisme of christ , than in the baptisme of iohn , this beliefe is one of his mysteries concerning baptisme . iohn preached christ unto the people , acts . . and iohns baptisme was the baptisme of repentance for the remission of sinnes , that is , preaching of repentance , he administred baptisme unto them in assurance of the forgivenesse of their sinnes , upon their repentance . and therefore he put off the scribes and pharises , calling upon them to bring forth fruits of repentance first . so peter speakes of the baptisme of christ , acts . repent and be baptized for the forgivenesse of your sinnes . so was circumcision unto the jewes a seale of the righteousnesse of faith , that is , of the forgivenesse of sinnes through faith . it seems this author is none of the rhemists adversary in this , who upon math. . . writes thus . it is an article of our adversaries , that the baptisme of christ , is no better then the baptisme of iohn , they make it of no more value or efficacy for remission of sinnes , and grace , and justification than was iohns : whereunto m r fulke makes answer , saying , remission of sinne is proper unto god as well in iohns baptisme , as in the baptisme of christ , and that iohn in that place compares the ministry of man with the authority and power of god , and though some of the ancient fathers were of another opinion , yet saint marke saith expressely , that iohn preached the baptisme of repentance . unto forgivenesse of sinnes . and who can separate forgivenesse of sinnes from true repentance ? when the lord promiseth , at what time soever the sinner repenteth , to pardon his sinnes . the seale of baptisme also added to the doctrine of repentance , must needs testify remission of sinnes , namely , the soule to be washed by mercy , as the body is with water . neither doth this doctrine derogate any thing from the baptisme of christ , seeing it is christ that forgiveth sinnes , and giveth grace in the baptisme ministred by iohn and ministred by his apostles : for iohns baptisme was by gods institution , not of iohns devising . it is true , all that have been baptized into christ , have been baptized into his death , rom. . . and gal. . . all that have been baptized into christ , have put on christ . but take baptisme aright , and let peter be an interpreter of paul. baptisme saveth us , saith he , pet. . . but least you should mistake him , marke what he addes , not the putting away the filth of the flesh , here is the outward baptizing with water , but the interrogation which a good conscience makes to god. nay let paul be an interpreter of himselfe . cor. . : but ye are washed , but ye are sanctifyed , but ye are justified in the name of the lord jesus , and by the spirit of our god. now i willingly confesse , that as many as are washed and sanctified and justified by the spirit of god , have put on christ , and are baptized into his death , to the mortifying and crucifying the old man in them . and as by the baptisme of the spirit we doe put on christ , so are we united unto christ , and have a communion with him in the benefits of his death . but as for the intention of baptisme of water , i know none it hath , much lesse doe i know how to put a difference between intention originall , and some other intention which he conceales , content to suffer the distinction , to fly with one wing . the baptize is intention i am somewhat acquainted with : on mans part , to baptize such as are brought to the font for that purpose , and by baptisme to consecrate them to the service of that god , who is one in nature , but three in persons , father , sonne , and holy ghost : on gods part , to seale unto us the righteousnesse of faith , which i learne out of rom. . . in the description of circumcision , and the meaning thereof , i take to be the assuring of forgivenesse of sinnes to them that believe , and this is congruous to the description both of johns baptisme , and christs baptisme set forth unto us in holy scripture . as for that iohn . . except a man be borne of water and of the spirit , he cannot &c. master fulke in his answer to the rhemists on that verse writes thus ; it is not necessary in this place by water , to understand materiall water , but rather the purifying grace of christ , as , cap. . v. . whereof the washing with water in baptisme , is an outward signe and seale , which also is termed fire , math. . . the water therefore in baptisme is not our regeneration properly , but a sacrament and seale thereof ; isid . origen . l. . cap. de spiritu sancto . aliud est aqua sacramenti , aliud aqua quae significat spiritum dei ; aqua enim sacramenti visibilis est , aqua spiritus sancti invisibilis est , ista abluit corpus , & significat quid sit in anima , per illum autem spiritum sanctum anima mundatur , & saginatur . and a little after , indeed ( saith he ) the words of our saviour christ are not properly of the externall sacrament more then , ioh. . of the other sacrament ; except you eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , you have no life in you : whereas all infants are excluded from that sacrament , and consequently should be excluded from life , if the words were meant of the outward sacraments . and the fathers of the ancient church , which thought baptisme was necessary , did likewise think the communion to be as necessary for infants ; as augustine , innocentius bishop of rome , and all the church of their time , for any thing we can gather by their writings . finally , when the word of water in this text signifieth the purifying grace of christ , rather than the outward element of baptisme , here can be no argument drawn out of this place , that sacraments conferre grace of the worke wrought , but according to the dispensation of gods spirit , who worketh according to his own pleasure ; as in this chap. v. . cor. . when this author talkes of the necessity of regeneration , i doubt he considers not , that hence it followeth , that either all that dye unbaptized are damned , ( for i presume he speaks of the necessity of it unto salvation , ) or that many thousands are now adaies regenerated without any sacrament of regeneration . that the spirit of god is the efficient cause of regeneration , i think no christian doubteth ; but this author maketh the baptizing with water to be an efficient also , as when he saith , baptisme is appoynted to be a means of regeneration to all that are baptized , and not only so , but that it doth effect it also in all that doe not put an obstacle in the way to hinder it . i acknowledge willingly that baptisme materiall , is an instrument , to wit , both as a signe & as a seale : but that it is an instrument in any other kind of operation , than belongs to a signe and seale , i have not hitherto learned out of the word of god. and as i remember , arminius was sometimes challenged for heterodoxy about the sacraments ; and withall , that his apology was this , he never ascribed any other efficacy unto the sacraments , than is denoted under the tearmes of signes and seales ; but no marvaile , if a degenerated condition hath seized on any , that such proficiunt in pejus , and grow more and more degenerate . the phrase used here in calling baptisme a means of regeneration , sounds harsh in my eares , we commonly say , and it is the doctrine of our catechisme , that a sacrament is an outward and visible signe , of an inward and invisible grace : now this grace in baptisme i take to be the grace of regeneration ; and is it a decent expression to say , that the signe of regeneration is the means of regeneration ? as for baptismus spiritus , the baptisme of the spirit , that is the very working of regeneration , but baptismus fluminis , the baptisme of water , that is the administration of the outward signe , and seale of the grace of regeneration . the word preacheth forgivenesse of sinnes to all that believe , so doth the sacrament of baptisme ; but the word preacheth this to the eare , the sacrament to the eye . the word assureth it , for it is gods word , the sacrament assures it , for it is gods seale , but neither of these worketh the assurance without the spirit of god : and as for the working of faith it selfe , i have read that faith comes by hearing , i no where read that faith comes by the being baptized . and sure i am when men of ripe yeares came to be baptized , they were first catechumini , then competentes , and none admitted unto baptisme , unlesse the word had formerly brought them unto faith . the apostle calls baptisme the laver of regeneration , by the rhemists translation , the fountain of regeneration , by the former english translation , the washing of regeneration , by the last : but whereas this author dignifies it with this title , because it doth effect regeneration in all that doe not put an obstacle in the way to hinder it : if this author shall prove it ( while his head is hot , ) we shall give that credence to it , as it deserves ; in the mean time , it stands for a bold affirmation ; let him take his time to make it appeare to be sound : the rhemists upon the place have this note ; as before in the sacrament of holy orders [ tim. . tim. . ] so here it is plaine that baptisme giveth grace , and that by it , as by an instrumentall cause , we be saved . master fulkes answer is this , here is no word to prove that baptisme giveth grace of the worke wrought , but the apostle saith that god hath saved us by the renewing of the holy ghost , which is testified by the sacrament of baptisme ( marke i pray the office of baptisme in master fulkes judgement , to testify the renewing , ) which is sacramentally the laver of regeneration ; not by the worke wrought but by the grace of gods spirit , by which we are justified . so speaketh saint peter , and explicateth himselfe pet. . . baptisme saveth us not the washing of the flesh of the body , but the interrogation of a good conscience . and because i know no obstacle that an infant can put to hinder the effect of it , for i suppose the obstacle must be rationall , and infants are not come to the use of reason , to performe any rationall act , which may prove any rationall obstacle ; therefore it seems this authors opinion is , that all who are baptized in the church , are regenerate : this indeed was the profession of master mountague before he was bishop ; and was answered by bishop carelton , as touching the best firmament of his opinion ; the book of our common-prayer , where the child baptized is said to be regenerate ; that is to be understood sacramento tenus , which is saint austins phrase , and which he distinguisheth from truly regenerate : and bishop usher in his history of gotteschaleus , alleadgeth out of the author of the imperfect work upon mathew , hom. . this sentence , eos qui cum tentati fuerint , superantur , & pereunt , videri quidem filios dei factos propter aquam baptismatis , revera tamen non esse filios dei , quia non sunt in spiritu baptizati . as also out of austin de unitate ecclesiae , cap. . visibilem baptismum posse habere , & alienos qui regnum dei non possidebunt : sed esse donum spiritus sancti quod proprium eorum est tantum qui regnabunt cum christo in aeternum . and lastly out of the same austin , as he is alleadged by peter lombard , l. . sent. dis . . sacramenta in solis electis efficere quod figurant . all this is to be found in that book of bishop usher p. . besides many more pregnant passages are collected by him for the same purpose . and not to charge him with authority only , but with some reason ; when saint , james saith jam. . . of his own will he hath begotten us by the word of truth ; what i pray is here meant by the word of truth ? is it not the gospell , to wit , the preaching of christ crucified ? now consider to whom doth he write , but to the twelve tribes , that is , to the christian jewes , such as were begotten to a lively hope by the resurrection of jesus christ , as saint peter speakes writing also to the jewes . if then these jewes were regenerated by the preaching of the gospell , surely they were not regenerated by circumcision ; and if regeneration were not necessarily annexed to the sacrament of circumcision , amongst the jewes , then neither is it necessarily affixed to the sacrament of baptisme amongst the christians . for our divines doe usually maintaine against the papists , that the sacraments of the old testament , were as effectuall to the jewes , as the sacraments of the new testament are effectuall unto us christians . it is true , baptisme is ordained , that those which doe receive it may have the remission of their sinnes , but not absolutely , but conditionally , to wit , in case they believe and repent , as appears both in that place , acts . . and rom. . . and baptisme as a seale doth assure hereof , only in case they believe and repent ; and therefore none of ripe years were admitted unto baptisme , untill they made profession of their faith , and as for infants , they were also anciently said to be baptized in fide parentum . gods patience rom. . . and the goodnesse of god manifested therein , leadeth a man to repentance : so doe his judgements also , hos . . in their affliction they will seeke me early ; and so doth gods word : and all this only in the way of a moving cause , and exciting to repentance , every morning god brings his judgements to light , he faileth not yet ; will not the wicked be ashamed . zeph . . but it is the duty of all to be moved by his word , by his works , by his mercyes , by his judgments , to turne to the lord by true repentance . but god alone is he that workes them hereunto , without whose efficacious grace none of all these courses will prevaile , as isai . . . for his wicked covetousnesse i was angry with him and have smiten him , i hid me and was angry . they wanted neither admonition from his word , nor from his corrections yet they profited by neither , as it followeth ; yet he went away and turned after the way of his own heart : yet what is gods resosolution , but to overcome their stubbornesse by the power of his grace , as there we read ; i have seen his waies , and will heale them : now who are these whom he leads so , as to bring them to repentance , let austin answer , contra julian . pelag. l. . c. . bonitas dei te ad poenitentiam adducit , verum esse constat , sed quem praedestinavit adducit , and he adds a reason , quamtamlibet enim praebuerit poenitentiam , nisi deus dederit , quis agit poenitentiam . and in the same chapter professeth , touching the non-praedestinate , that god never brings them to wholsome and spirituall repentance , whereby a man is reconciled to god in christ , whether god affords them greater patience than he affords his elect ; or nothing lesse ? his words are these , istorum neminem adducit ad poenitentiam salubrem , & spiritualem , qua homo in christo reconciliatur deo , sive illis ampliorem patientiam , sive non imparem praebeat : god intends by this his patience , that it is the duty of all to repent ; that is , that they should repent ex officio ; but did he intend they should de facto repent ? what then could hinder it ? then he would afford them efficacious grace , to heale them , as he promiseth isai . . . then would he rule them with a mighty hand , and make them passe under the rodde , and bring them unto the bond of the covenant . so then to the poynt in particular here observed . . god leads all to repentance by his goodnesse , manifested in his forbearance and long suffering , by way of admonition , that it is their duty to turne unto god by repentance , while he gives them time and space for repentance . . but as for those whom he hath elected , he not only thus leads , but also effectually brings them to repentance , in the time he hath appoynted , before which time they are found sometimes to despise the riches of his goodnesse , and to have hard and impenitent hearts , as much as any reprobate : who more foule in the committing of horrible abominations than manasses ? who more furious in persecuting the church of god then saul ? yet god took away the stony heart ( and what is harder then stone ) out of their bowells , and so he doth to all whom he regenerates . . as touching a finall contempt of gods patience , that is peculiar unto reprobates ; as for the elect , though some are called at the first houre of the day , some not till the last , yet all are effectually called , before they drop out of the world. to say that god intends the everlasting good of reprobates , is to deny the first article of our creed , even gods omni potency , as austin hath disputed years agoe ; we find in our selves , that whatsoever we will doe , if we doe not it , it is either because we cannot doe it , or because our will is changed , but to ascribe either mutability or impotency to god , is intollerable in a christian , and it cannot be denied , but god did from everlasting intend their everlasting damnation : so that to say he did intend their everlasting good , is flat contradiction ; neither is there any way to charme it , but by saying , god intends their everlasting good conditionally ; but to intend it after such a manner , is apparently no more to intend their salvation than their damnation , nay lesse rather ; considering the conditions of salvation are utterly impossible unto man , unlesse god correct , and cure his corrupt nature ; but this grace he dispenseth according to the meere pleasure of his will , as the apostle signifyeth in saying , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . as for that pet. . . he is patient towards us , not willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any of us to perish , it hath been already considered ; but here he interpreteth towards us , as if it had been said , towards us men , and i hope the elect are men , as well as others : but what ground hath he for this liberty of interpretation ? why may he not take the liberty in interpreting of iohn , as well as peter , both were pillars ; ( gal. . ) where he saith , they went out from us , but they were not of us , for had they been of us , they had continued with us ; and still swalloweth a palpable absurdity following hereupon , even to the denying of gods omnipotency , in as flat contradiction to the apostle , where he professeth , that god hath mercy on whom he will , which is not to have mercy on all , but on some only , hardening others , as rom. . the election hath obtained it , but the rest are hardned . discourse . sect . v. in the last place those other gifts of god , whereby mens understandings are enlightened , and their soules beautifyed , ( which are knowledge , repentance , fortitude , liberality , temperance , humility , charity , and such like ) are bestowed upon all them that have them , ( among whom are many that may prove reprobates in the end ) that by the exercise of them , and continuance in them , they might be saved . the reprobates are adorned with many of those graces , as apears plainly by many scriptures , especially hebr. . . where the apostle sayes , that it is impossible for those that have been enlightned , tasted the heavenly gift , been made partakers of the holy ghost , tasted the good word of god , and the powers of the world to come , if they fall away , should be renewed by repentance : and the graces which the apostle speakes of here , are not ordinary and common , but speciall graces , illumination , faith , relish of the sweetnesse of gods word , and the tast of heaven . the persons spoken of , are apostates , such as are under the possibility of falling away , ( for upon a dainger not possible cannot be built a solid exhortation ) and if apostates then reprobates , and the thing intimated is that upon apostates and reprobates are these gifts bestowed . the like speech we have : hebr. . . for if we sinne willingly , after we have received the knowledge of the truth , there remaines no more sacrifice for sinne &c. from whence we collect , that men that sinne willingly and unpardonably , may receive the knowledge of the truth , yea and be sanctifyed by the bloud of the testament and the spirit of grace , v. . pet. . . they may escape the filthinesse of the world i. e. be washed from their former sins by repentance , the uncleane spirit may goe out of them . mat. . . they may receive the word with joy , mat. . . and many excellent graces they may have besides : all which graces are not given them that they might abuse them , and so purchase to themselves the greater damnation ; or that they might doe good to others with them , but none to themselves ; but rather that as by the former gifts of nature , so by these of grace , they may obtaine salvation . if god aime at this in those gifts that are farther off , much more in these , which make those that have them ( like the yong man in the gospel ) not farre from the kingdome of heaven . thus we see what end god aimes at in his gifts to men . twisse consideration . these gifts this author formerly described to be gifts of grace , applying salvation unto men , which he distinguisheth from gifts of grace purchasing salvation , in the entrance upon this reason of his . now it is apparent , that most of these gifts have been found in the heathen men : and who was ever heard to call these vertues found in the heathen , gifts of grace , applying the salvation purchased by christ , whereof they were wholy ignorant , like as of christ himselfe . and whereas he makes , faith and repentance , to be gifts communicated unto such , who ( as he expresseth it , ) doe prove reprobates in the end ; saint austin to the contrary , as formerly i have alleadged him out of his . lib. contra julian pelag. c. . expressely professeth of the non praedestinate , that god brings not one of them to wholsome and spirituall repentance , whereby a man is reconciled to god in christ : and our brittaine divines in the synod of dort , upon the th article and fourth position , professe in like manner of all such as are none of gods elect , that it is manifest they never really and truly attaine that change and renovation of the mind , and affections , which accompanieth justification ; nay , nor that which doth immediatly prepare or dispose to justification . for they never seriously repent , they are never affected with hearty sorrow for offending god by sinning , nor doe they come to any humble contrition of heart , nor conceive a firme resolution to offend any more . and whereas he saith , that such doe prove reprobates in the end , he may as well say of others , that they prove elect in the end , which doth wholly savour , of shapeing the decrees of god , to be of a temporall condition , and not eternall ; unlesse he delivers it of the manifestation of it in the judgement of men , which yet as touching reprobates cannot appeare untill their death , and 't is a very hard matter for any man , to passe upon men generally the censure of elect , or reprobates ; the hypocrisy of man hath such power to evacuate the one , and the secret operation of gods mercy and grace the other . how farre reprobates may attain to the illunination of their mind , and renovation of their wills , and reformation of their lives , is set downe more fully by our brittain divines in the synod of dort , than by this author ; not one particular ( if i mistake not ) being mentioned here , as touching the places of scripture , containing the indication thereof , which is not set downe there , and some there are set downe , which are not set downe here . in their first position concerning those who are not elect , upon the fifth article ( this authors quotation here leaving out the article ) and by a wild reference to the page , being fitter to confound a reader than direct him ) the first position there is this , there is a certain supernaturall enlightning granted to some of them who are not elect , by the power whereof they understand those things to be true , which are revealed in the word of god , and yeeld an unfained ascent unto them . and in the explication of it luke . . the seed which fell upon the stony ground , noteth unto us such hearers , as for a while believe , that is , those that for a while give ascent to things revealed from above , and especially to the covenant of the gospell ; and thereby it is plaine , that this their ascent , is no way faigned , because they received the word with joy . acts . . and afterwards they give a farther reason of it thus , for it is not to be imputed for a fault to any man , that he is fallen from an hypocriticall faith , neither can a shipwrack be made of a faigned faith , but only a detection and manifestation of it , nor indeed can he suffer shipwrack , who was never in the shippe . pet. . . some are said to have escaped from the filthinesse of the world , by the knowledge of the lord , whose latter end is worse than their beginning : and of those ioh. . . who believed in christ , but did not confesse him , they write that they believed with an unfaigned dogmaticall faith , which then lay secretly hid in their hearts : but never shewed it selfe in any outward profession , for feare of danger ensuing . thir second position is this , in these fore-mentioned , there doth arise out of this knowledge and faith , a certain change of their affections , and some kind of amendment of their manners . this they prove out of math. . . they received the word with joy : and kings . . concerning ahabs humbling of himselfe : and out of heb. . . alleadged by this author , and over and above out of v. . observe a renovation also , in as much as it is said , that it is impossible they should be renued againe , which implyeth , that they had been formerly renued in some sort , and out of chap. . . that they trod under foot the blood of the covenant , by which they are sanctified ; and that they attained to some amendment of life , they prove both by the example of herod ; and out of pet. . . where t is said of them , that they had escaped from the filthinesse of the world . and chap. . . where they are said to have forgotten that they were purged from their old sinnes . and out of math. . . where 't is said the unclean spirit was departed out of them , and that all this was not faigned , but that they proceeded out of the power of those dispositions unto grace , and from the inspiration of the holy ghost : yet notwithstanding all this in their fourth position they pronounce , that they never attaine unto the state of adoption and justification : and in their explication of it , that they never attaine the change and renovation of the mind and affections , which doth immediatly prepare and dispose unto justification ; for they never seriously repent &c. at large . now seeing god brings them no farther , as he doth his elect ; with what sobriety can it be said , that god intends their salvation ? and as for the poynt of sanctification , which here is attributed to them , other divines doe not goe so farre , as to interpet it of any inward sanctification , as paraeus ; erat autem ( saith he ) sanctificatio apostolorum non interna sed externa in professione fidei , & participatione sacramentorum externa consistens , erant sanctificati , hoc est , a judaeis & paganis professione segregati , & pro veris christianis habiti . loquitur enim secundum judicium charitatis , quae omnes de doctrina for is consentientes habet pro sanctificatis , licet non omnes cordibus vere sint sanctificati , non eergo hinc sequitur , apostatas . vere fuisse regeneratos . pro quibus enim christus ne or are quidem dignatus est , eos multo minus sanguine suo sanctificavit : ideo johannes apostatas de ecclesia renatorum fuisse negat : ex nobis egressi sunt , quia non erant ex nobis . et petrus vocat eos canes & porcos redentes ad vomitum , & volutabrum , canis vero etiam post vomitum est canis , & sus lota est sus , canem vero & suem se semper mansisse , & ille & ista per reditum ad vomitum & volutabrum declarat . cameron likewise in in his myroth . p. . dupliciter sanctificantur homines alii absolute , ut soli fideles , cum scilicet non tantum ab aliis hominibus segregantur ( hoc enim verbum sanctificare saepe significat in scriptura ) a deo , sed & remissione peccatorum apprehensa & spiritus sancti virtute sanctificati , & in sanctitatis studio permanent . alii comparate , qui scilicet separantur quidem ab aliis hominibus externa fidei professione , & aliqua fortè vitae instituti immutatione , at non sanctificantur absolute ut fideles , ad hoc posterius sanctificationis genus pertinet hoc apostoli dictum , in quo sanctificatus fuit . but albeit they were truly sanctified , ( to suppose that for the present ) yet if god purposed not to give them perseverance therein , undoubtedly he intended not their salvation . nay , no arminian denies , but that god did from everlasting intend the salvation of all such apostates ; and to say that he had a velleity to save them , is to dash a mans selfe against the rock of absurdity , as to deny gods omnipotency , unlesse he will say gods mind is changed : and to talke of a conditionate will intending their salvation , is no more to say , that he intends their salvation in case they doe believe , than to say , he intends their damnation in case they doe not believe . and as for his allegation out of the suffrages of our divines in the synod of dort , that is very wild , neither mentioning the article , nor rightly quoting the page : though the things here proposed are mostly taken out of the first and second thesis , concerning the non-elect , upon the fifth article : but no glimps doe i find there , of any such end of gods granting these dispositions , as that thereby they might be brought unto salvation ; though as in the elect such like dispositions are , so in the reprobate , they might be preparations to farther grace , if it pleased god so to ordaine as to bring them on forward to justification and true sanctification conjunct therewith , and thereby unto salvation . as for the ends which god doth intend thereby , to wit , by bringing them so farre ; look whatsoever god doth bring to passe hereby , that god doth intend . for nothing can fall out casually unto god. if they doe persevere in this condition , to wit. as touching the outward emendation of their life , it is , ut mitius puniantur , as austin expresseth himselfe somewhere , which now doth not come to my remembrance , if they fall from it , whereupon they shall be more grievously punished : this also was intended by god. or if others are bettered by them , undoubtedly this also was intended by god , as also to teach all others not to content themselves with superficiall renovation , superficiall obedience ; and so likewise illumination clearely takes away that excuse , which some are apt to make , as austin observes , namely , dicere solet humana superbia si scissem fecissem . which how well this author infringeth , we are to consider in the next place . discourse . sect . vi. but there are some scripturs which seem to say the contrary . v : g. rom. . . where god is said to reveale himselfe to the gentiles by the creatures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they might be without excuse . luke . . simeon said of christ , that he is appointed for the falling , and rising againe of many in israell ; and. cor. . . i preach christ ( sayth paul ) to the jewes a stumbling blocke . cor. . . we are the sweet savor of death unto death : and it seems by these places , that god gives these things to some , that they may stumble , and be left without excuse ; what shall we say therefore to these places ? of all these scriptures in generall , i may say this , that they are to be understood of the end , which is many times effected by these gifts of god , and not of the end that is primarily intended in them ; and they shew what christ , the word preached , and the gifts of nature and grace , are ( occasionally ) to some men through their voluntary rebellion against god , and his ordinances ; and not what they are ( intentionally ) in gods first thoughts and resolutions . he intends them for them , for their good , though many times they receive them to their hurt : it is with gods ordinances and gifts ( and that very often too ) as it is sometimes with physick , it is given by the physitian for the patients good , many times through the distemper of his body , it doth him hurt . and as it is with the sunne , god intends by the shining of it , the enlightning and clearing of men , and other creatures in this inferior world , others are hurt by the light of it , ( accidentally ) by reason of the climates wherein they live , or the ill affectednesse of their eyes and bodies . so the blessings of god , which out of his abundant goodnesse , are bestowed upon men for their eternall good , through the ill frame and temper of their heart , doe effect their hurt ; partly because lighting upon naughty hearts , they loose their force and edge , ( for quicquid recipitur , recipitur ad modum recipientis ; ) and partly because of the severity of god , who as he hath an antecedent and gratious will to doe men good , so he hath a consequent and judiciary will of giving up wicked men to the lusts of their hearts , and of permitting them to dash against christ , and other means of eternall life , and so to fall into endlesse misery and mischiefe , as we may see , psal . . , . and rev. . . he that is filthy let him be filthy still . now if this be the meaning of those scriptures , then they thwart nothing that hath been said of gods gracious intent of promoting the eternall good of men , by his blessings bestowed upon them . for argumentum ab eventu ad intentionem dei non valet ; because no sinfull event is properly under gods will and decree , but his prescience only , or at most under a permissive decree , and many things happen in the world , which are besides the antecedent and principall purpose of god , not because there is any want of power in god , but because his will is oftentimes conditionall , and therefore not effected , because the condition is not performed . twisse . consideration . the gifts of grace he speakes of are three . . the knowledge of god revealed in his workes , . christ , . the gospell ; for these alone are they , whereof the objection proceeds , which he proposeth to be answered . of the first : it is most true , that the end thereof represented in the objection , is effected by it , to wit , the bereaving men of excuse , as namely in a certain kind , which austin interpreteth , de grat . & lib. arb . c. . in this manner , quomodo dicit inexcusabiles nisi de illa excusatione , qua dicere solet humana superbia si scissem fecissem , ideo non feci , quia nescivi . how doth he call them inexcusable , but in respect of such an excuse , which the pride of man moveth him to use , saying , had i known it i would have done it , therefore i did it not , because i knew it not : thus the gentiles were left without excuse , in turning the glory of the incorruptible god , to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man , &c. and for as much as he had sufficiently manifested himselfe by his workes , to be eternall , and consequently uncorruptible . so that knowledge sufficiently revealed , doth alwaies take away the pretence of ignorance for a mans excuse , whether a man have any need of excuse , as in case he lives not answerable to his knowledge , or no need at all to excuse himselfe , as in case he doth conforme himselfe to that knowledge which god hath given him , in which case he is not said to be inexcusable , though pretence of ignorance by way of excuse is taken from him , as well as from others ; but because he hath no need of any such excuse , as depends upon pretence of ignorance , therefore he is not denominated inexcusable , but such only who would excuse themselves by such a pretence , but cannot . but as touching the other gifts of grace mentioned , to wit , . christ , . the gospell , 't is most untrue that the end specified , is effected by them : for christ doth not effect the falling of any ; neither is the setting of him up , any cause of any mans falling , neither is the stumbling of any , effected by the preaching of the gospell ; for what is mens stumbling thereat , but their disobedience thereunto . pet. . . now the gospell doth not effect any mans disobedience , but the corrupt heart of man alone is the efficient cause thereof . and i cannot sufficiently wonder , at so crude a conceit as this author manifesteth , by so inconsiderate an expression . i grant the end primarily intended , was no other then gods glory : but as for the salvation of reprobates , that is neither primarily nor secondarily , nor at all intended by god , as i have often demonstrated ; both in as much as god hath from everlasting intended their damnation , and therefore cannot without contradiction intend their salvation . and withall god is unchangeable and omnipotent , and therefore as he can procure the salvation of any , if withall he intends and wills to procure it , undoubtedly such a one shall be saved . against all which , this author proceeds without taking any course to charme those foule absurdities whereinto he precipitates himselfe . and when he saith of the stumbling of many at the gospell , that it is not primarily intended , he doth most inconsiderately confesse , that it is intended by god , though not primarily , which is enough for us ; and the apostle is expresse , professing of such who stumble at the word through disobedience , that thereunto they were ordained . pet. . . neither doe we say that the gospell or christ , is the cause of any mans falling ; but onely the occasion thereof : mans corrupt heart alone ( as formerly i said ) being the cause thereof . but god intends their stumbling shall come to passe , which must needs be , in case it is through disobedience that they stumble , and god hath purposed to deny them the grace of obedience , as indeed he hath to many , like as he doth deny it to many ; as appeareth by his hardening of many , even whom he will , like as on the other side , he hath mercy on whom he will. so christs carriage was not the cause , but the occasion only of the jewes plotting against him , because they observed that he did many miracles , and if they let him alone , all men would believe in him , and the romans would come and take away both their place , and the nation . ioh. . , . yet look what they did against him , god had before intended and determined to be done ; for both herod , and pontius pilate together with the gentiles , and people of israell , were gathered together , to doe what gods hand and counsell had determined before to be done . acts . . yet not primarily intended neither , for all this was to a farther end , namely , to procure the redemption of the world , yea of some of them who crucified him . yet there was a farther end than all this , namely , the glory of god , in the way of mercy mixt with justice , and that brought to passe by admirable power and wisdome . this was first in gods thoughts and resolutions , as the supreame end , all the rest were but as meanes tending thereunto : yet doe we not say this was intentionally in gods first thoughts and resolutions , which is as if he should say , intentionally in gods intentions ; and with the like genius of sobriety , he distinguisheth between occasionally and intentionally , inclosing the tearmes with a parenthesis , as if there were some great judgement , though little wit , in this distinction , and therefore would have it observeable . occasion is justly distinguished from a cause , but i never found it distinguished from intention , till now . it seemes he would say accidentally or casually , for such alone are praeter intentionem , if any , and so fit to be opposed to intentionally ; but this distinction sticks in his teeth , he was loath in plaine tearmes to expresse so shamefull an opinion , as to professe that any thing comes to passe in the world , besides gods intention , which is the distinction of things fortuitous in aristotle . nay , he leaves place for gods intention of them secondarily , denying only that he intends them primarily . but still he keepes this conclusion , and holds that up , whatsoever becomes of his premises , as when he saith god intends them for them , for their good , that is his oracle ; but saint pauls oracle is , that the invisible things of god , that is his eternall power and godhead , are seen by the creation of the world being considered in his workes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they may be without excuse , and that the preachers of the gospell , were unto god a sweet savour of christ in them that are saved , and in them that perish ; without putting any difference according to this authors gemora , that this is to be understood of the one occasionally , of the other intentionally . but to ransack this also , and to speake distinctly , what is the good that god hereby intended them ? was it salvation ? and how did he intend that unto them ? was it intended to be their portion , whether they believed in christ or no ? undoubtedly his meaning can be no other then this , he intended they should be saved by him , provided they did believe in him : now what christian was there ever known to deny this , namely , that as many as believed in christ , should be saved by him ? but let me aske another question , did god intend they should believe in him ? yes surely in the opinion of this author : but is not faith the gift of god ? they are ashamed to deny this , at least in concione populi , whatsoever they doe consessu familiari . why then did not god give them faith ? why surely because they refused to believe in him , so that had they believed in him , then god would have given them faith ; as much as to say , had they bestowed faith on themselves , then god would have bestowed faith on them : this is their sobriety that oppose the grace of god , and such be their sobriety still that fall away from the truth of god. if physick doe the patients harme through the distemper of their bodies , this must be through the ignorance of the physitian , who either knowes not the distemper of their body , or else knowes not how to master it . but spare , i pray , to make god obnoxious to the like ignorance or impotency , when the lord saith , i have seen his wayes and will heale them , isai . . . when was it ever known that such a patient was not healed ? what greater distemper of the soule than back-sliding or rebellion ? yet when god saith i will heale their back-sliding , and i will heale their rebellions . hosea . vers . . when was it ever knowne , that any of his patients , were not the better for his operation , but the worse rather ? at length , that breakes out of this author , that formerly stuck in the way , like a burre in his throat , as when he saith that god intends the chearing of men by the shining of the sunne , but that some are scorched by the heat of it , some hurt by the light of it , is accidentally , as if these effects were not intended by god ; as much as to say , that god doth not intend , that the sunne should scorch in zona torrida , though the sunne works by necessity of nature , and cannot but scorch there , as the abissines felt to their smart , who were wont to pray unto the sunne as he was rising to spare them , but after he was passed , and going downe , to curse as fast for his scorching of them , whence it is conceived that proverbe came , plures adorant solem orientem quam occidentem : as naturall it is to the light to scatter the sight , and if by scattering the eye be ill affected , this is as naturall to the sunne ; like as to make sweet flowers send forth their odoriferous savours , as a dung-mixen , to exhale an unsavoury smell : but suppose a man should loose his sight by the light , as some have by the light of the sunne , being kept long in some darke place before , shall this be accidentall unto god , wheras the prophet professeth , there is no evill in the city which the lord hath not done ? like as gods blessing it is , that neither the sun scorcheth him by day , nor the influence of the moon , or any other planet , hurt him by night . but come we to the apodosis of the simile , he renewes his coccismes of gods blessings out of his abundant goodnesse , bestowed on men for their good ; which is a generall speech , and in the generality nothing to the present purpose , we know god saveth both man and beast , he makes his sunne to shine , and his raine to fall on the just and on the unjust , but as for the knowledge of god revealed in his creature , whatsoever is brought forth according to it , we doubt not but god intended it , as civill society , and some naturall feare of god , and civill conversation ; where any thing is done contrary unto it , the apostle hath discovered unto us , the end of naturall revelation is , that they might be without excuse ; they connot say , si scissem fecissem , that excuse is taken from them . as for the dictates of supernumerary apostles , we have no cause to regard them , especially when they are cantradictitions to the word of god , and christian reason , the gospell is unto god throughout a sweet savour in christ , both in them that are saved , and in them that perish ; it is true , that it is through the corruptions of mens hearts , that men doe not yeeld obedience to it , but that corruption god can cure , and doth cure where it pleaseth him ; that men doe obey , 't is also through the good temper of their hearts , but through the grace of god , curing that corruption in them , that he leaves uncured in others ; and we willingly grant , that he intends their salvation in whom he means to cure this corruption , to bring them to the obedience of faith : but most absurd it is to say , that he intends their salvation , on whom he never meant to shew any such mercy , but rather to harden them ; where the honest and good heart is wanting , the word proves not fruitfull , but only where such an heart is found . now it is gods work , ( i know ) alone to take away the stony heart , and to give an heart of flesh . but this author carryeth himselfe so throughout , that he would have this worke to be the work of mans free will , not of god , any other way than by perswasion , admonition , exhortation , and concourse ; many talke of robin hood that never shot in his bow ; and this author talkes of the anticedent will of god , which i doubt whether he understands either the meaning of damascen herein , or of crysostom either vossius reduceth it as i have shewed before , to voluntas conditionata , thus , god willeth that men should be saved if they believe , is it not as true , that his will is , they shall be damned if they doe not believe ? this is the only gratious will this author magnifyes ; but god give me experience of another manner of his gratious will towards me , namely , as he seeth my wayes , so to heale them , yea , and to rule me with a mighty hand , so he make me to passe under the rod , and bring me unto the bond of his covenant . but yet see i pray whether this author be yet come to the sobriety of his sences , in speaking here of gods severity in the way of a will judiciary ; as when he gives wicked men up to the lust of their hearts , and permits them to dash against christ , and other meanes of eternall life , now i pray consider , who are those wicked men whom god thus gives over to their lusts ? were we not all such ? did not god find us all weltering in our bloud . ezek. . ? had not we all stony hearts . ezek. . ? were we not all blind , lame , deafe , nay were we not dead in sinnes . ephes . . . ? did not the gospell find the ephesians so ? did not the word of truth find the jewes so ? james , . . how then comes this difference that christ is a stumbling blocke to some and not to others ? we say the difference is , because god hath mercy on some , and hardens others . rom. . . because some are borne of god , therefore they heare gods word , others are not borne of god , and therefore they heare not gods word . ioh. . . the arminians say god giveth power to every one by an universall grace to will any good whereto he shall be excited . so when the gospell is preached , every one hath power to obey it : if he doth obey it , then christ is a precious stone to him , but if it disobey it , then he is given up to the lusts of his heart , and permitted to dash against christ , and other meanes of eternall life . here we have a phrase , but we are to seeke of the meaning thereof ; what is it to dash against christ ? it must needs be to commit some sinne or other , for that is the object of gods permition , for of all other things god is acounted the author , not the permitter , the object of permition is nothing but sinne , now what sinne can that be , whereby we are said to dash against christ , and other meanes of salvation , but disobedience to christ and to the meanes of grace : so that from the first to the last , the sence comes to this , as many as disobey christ and the meanes of grace , they are given over to the lusts of their hearts , and permitted to dash against christ and other means of eternall life , that is , are permitted to disobey christ and to resist other means of eternal life . so that their disobedience to christ and the gospell is very punctually and juditiously set downe to precede by two degrees their disobedience to christ , and his gospell . some may thinke that this arminian prosilite doth not carry himselfe well in his businesse and for betraying the nakednesse of his cause may be in dainger to be excommunicated out of their synagogue . but sir you must believe it , this is the very leprosy of their doctrine that over spreds it from the crowne of the head to the sole of the foot , and they are in love with it , accounting it not only sanity , but perfect beauty . god indeed is said in scripture , to give men over to their lusts , when he forbears either courses of admonition and reproofe by his word , or by his judgements in his workes , or when he forbears to restraine satan , as formerly he did : but disobedience to the gospell undoubtedly is , hoc ipso , a dashing against christ , although god may continue to admonish and exhort even to the end ; as to prophane and hypocriticall persons in the church , he gives not over this course of his untill the end . i have often represented the absurdity of this authors conceit , of a gracious intent in god , of promoting the eternall good of reprobates ; whereas it cannot be denied , that god hath from everlasting intended their damnation : and as for our saying , that god intends they shall be without excuse , that christ is set up for their falling , that the gospell is unto god a sweet savour in christ , not only in them that are saved , but in them that perish . this author is so farre from overthrowing the truth of it , that ( besides other absurdities delivered by him in the way ) the author himselfe hath no heart to deny it , only saying , that god intends it not primarily , which is rather to grant that he intends it ( though not primarily as whereabouts there is no question ) than to deny it , and that occasionally they are so ; whereas no man but himselfe hath said ( in saying that they doe effect this end ) that christ or the gospell are the cause hereof , but only that they are the occasion . but this hinders not gods intention of them : for undoubtedly god intends as well things occasioned as things caused , though not in his first thoughts and resolutions , which belongs rather to the end than to the meanes , to wit , to be first intended . so that in plaine tearmes , he hath not hitherto dared to deny , that god intends them , though he manifests a good mind to maintaine , that they come to passe accidentally and casually in respect of god ; for he spares not to professe , that the scorching of men , and the hurting of weake eyes falls out accidentally , and that to god ; for he proposeth this by way of distinction , from that which god intends , which he saith is the chearing of men by the light of the sunne : like as here he denies that mens stumbling at christ , is a thing intended by god ; like as in saying a sinnefull event is not properly under gods will and decree , but under his prescience only , or at most under a permissive decree . and this i confesse , is a very plausible doctrine in the judgement of flesh and bloud ; save that this authors faint carriage in the delivering of it , is enough to make a man suspect it , as plausible as it is , yet it is hardly true and sound . for he dares not say , that a sinfull event is not at all under gods decree , only that he saith , it is not properly under gods decree . but saint peter speaking of them that stumbled at the word of god through disobedience , professeth in plaine termes , that hereunto they were ordained , pet. . . and all the apostles there assembled . acts . . doe professe , that both herod and pontius pilate , with the gentiles and people of israell , were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe what gods hand , and gods counsell had determined before to be done . and ere i part i hope to prove , that any sinfull act that comes to passe in the world , is as properly intended of god , as any good act whatsoever , although there be a vast difference in the bringing of them forth : god causing the one , & only permitting the other as it is evill . and that because it comes under gods prescience , & it is well they are not so atheistical as to deny gods prescience ; but i doubt not to make it good , that either they must deny that every thing comes under gods prescience , or they must grant that every thing comes under gods decree . for consider , nothing can be foreknowne of god as future , unlesse it be future . now let us quietly enquire how any thing becomes future , and if any cause hereof can with reason be devised without the decree of god , let us all become arminians , and deny god either at all to be , or to be a free agent , but working by necessity of nature : for if future things be future of their own nature , then all things must be acknowledged to come to passe by necessity of their owne nature , which is to deny god. but if things be of their owne nature meerly possible , and indifferent to become either future or non-future , then there must be acknowledged some cause whereby they are brought out of the condition of things meerly possible , into the condition of things future . and this cause must exist from everlasting , otherwise it should not be so ancient as the effect thereof , for it is well knowne that all things future have been future from everlasting , otherwise god could not have foreknown them from everlasting : but all confesse that god from everlasting foreknew every future thing ; therefore the cause making them to passe out of the condition of things meerely possible ( such as they were of their owne nature ) into the condition of things future , was also from everlasting . now consider where was this cause to be found ? not without god : for nothing without god either was or is everlasting without beginning ; therefore is it to be found within god or no where . consider in the next place , what is that within god which is fit to be the cause hereof . we say 't is his decree , but this author cannot away with that . therefore si quid novisti rectius isto candidus imperti . certainly the knowledge of god cannot be the cause ; for as aquinas saith , that causeth nothing but as joyned with gods will , and therefore it is commonly conceived that foreknowledge doth rather presuppose things future than make them so : nothing then remaines to be the cause hereof , but the essence of god. now the essence of god may be considered two waies , either as working necessarily , or as working freely : if it be the cause of things future as working necessarily , then it followeth that god shall produce them by necessity of nature , which utterly overthrowes divine providence . what remaines then but that we must be driven to confesse that divine essence makes them future , as working freely , which is as much as to professe , that gods will and decree is that alone , which maketh things to passe out of the condition of things meerly possible in to the condition of things future . and i challenge the whole nation of arminians , and jesuites to answer this argument . yet this decree we willingly acknowledge is a permissive decree : but look that we understand that aright also ; thus god decreeth this or that evill to come to passe by his permission , like as good things he decreeth shall come to passe by his effection : and that upon gods permission , it is necessary that that which he permits shal come to passe , is acknowledged not only by our divines , but by vorstius , by arminians , by navarettus the dominican as i have quoted thē in my vinditiae gratiae dei , which yet they deliver without clear expressing how : which i perform thus , look what god decrees to permit , it is necessary that it should come to passe , but how ? not necessarily but contingently & freely , and the scripture is expresse as before expressed , that the most barbarous actions cōmited against christ by herod , pontius pilate , together with the gentiles and people of israell , in their contumelious usages of him , were all predetermined by the hand and counsell of god. marke the issue of this authors most frivolous discourses : for this will whereof he speakes , whereby god is pretended gratiously to will mans salvation , conditionall ; as much as to say , 't is gods will that a man shall be saved in case he believe in christ ; now what christian was ever known to deny this . secondly , consider whether this deserves to be called a will to save more than a will to damne , for like as 't is certaine a man shall be saved if he believe in christ , so it is most certaine a man shall be damned if he believe not , and withall consider to which of these the nature of man is most prone , whether to faith or to infidelity . discourse . sect . vii . but by this opinion the gifts of nature and grace have another end , either god doth not meane them unto those that perish , albeit they doe enjoy them ; because they are mingled in the world with the elect , to whom only they are directed : or if he doe , he meaneth they shall have them , and by them be lifted up above the common rank of men , [ ut lapsu graviore ruant ] that their fall may be the greater : for how can god intend that those men should receive them or any good by any of them , whom he hath by an absolute decree cut off and rejected utterly from grace and glory . more particularly by , this doctrine , . christ came not into the world to procure the salvation of them that perish , because they were inevitably preordained to perish . . the word is not sent to them , or if it be , it is that they might slight it or contemne it and increase their damnation by the contempt of it ; and so these inconveniences will arise ; . that god is a meere deceiver of miserable men whom he calls to salvation in the name of his sonne , by the preaching of his word ; because he fully intends to most men the contrary to that which he fairly pretends : . that ministers are but false witnesses ; because in their ministry they offer salvation conditionally to many , who are determined to damnation absolutely : . the ministry of the word canot leave men inexcusable , for reprobates may have this just plea : lord , dost thou punish for not believing in thy sonne , when thou didest call us to believe by the preaching of thy word , thou didest decree to leave us ( woefull men ) in adams sinne , to leave us neither power to believe , nor a christ to believe in ; how canst thou justly charge us with sinne , or encrease our punishment for not believing in him , whom thou didest resolve before the world was that we should never believe in . that ministry gives men a faire excuse which is given to no other end than to leave them without excuse . . the sacraments ( by this opinion ) signify nothing , seale up , conferre nothing to such as are not saved , but are meere blankes and empty ordinances unto them not through the fault of men but by the primary and absolute will of god. . lastly , other gifts bestowed upon men of what nature soever they be , are to the most that receive them in gods absolute intention , . unprofitable , such as shall never doe them good in reference to their finall condition . . dangerous and hurtfull , given them not of love but extreame hatred , not that they might use them well and be blessed in so doeing , but that they might use them ill , and by ill using of them procure unto themselves the greater damnation . god lifts them up ( as the divell did christ ) to the pinacle of the temple that they might fall , and loades them with knowledge and other goodly indowments that with the weight of them , he might sink them into hell , and so by good consequence gods chiefest gifts are intended , and laid as snares to entrap mens soules . men that have them have little cause to be proud of them , ( for they are the more unhappy because they have them ) or small reason to be thankfull for them , or to love the giver of them , but to hate rather , because they are but giftlesse gifts , no better than an usurers bounty , jaells courtesie souls bestowing michal to david , or a bayte for a proud fish which he swallowes with an hooke to boore . twisse consideration . vvee have hitherto received a poore and hungry discourse , but now in the accommodation of it he thunders & lightneth , as his manner is , both the master and the disciple would have it in their owne power to make themselves elect , otherwise it seemes they have little comfort , and therefore they discharge a great noise of thunder against our doctrine of reprobation : as if they would awe god to give them liberty to elect themselves , otherwise they will powder his absolutenesse , in taking upon him to reprobate whom he list . me thinkes these arminians talke in the spirit of dr story , as if they would scould us out of our faith , i will not say god out of his throne ; but he is able to plead his own , we are unworthy to plead for him , yet thus farre he is pleased to honour us , as to admit us to plead for him , like as he is the god that pleades the cause of his people : i have shewed how absurdly this author makes the salvation of reprobates to be intended by god , which yet in the issue is but after a conditionall manner , which is no more to intend their salvation , then their condemnation : well let us see the quality of these absurdities he fastens upon us . the first is , that god doth not meane the gifts of nature and grace unto those that perish : where to i answer , that as touching the gifts of nature , there is no colour for this , for they ( as the author sets them downe ) are these , creation , sustentation , preservation , health , beauty , wisdome ; now let any sober man consider whether it be possible , that it should not be gods meaning for as many as doe enjoy them , to enjoy them . as for the gifts of grace , these he divides into graces purchasing salvation , and graces applying salvation , after it is purchased : the grace purchasing salvation is christ ; now we say that salvation is purchased , to be conferred upon every man of ripe yeares conditionall only , namly , in case he believes , and on all that doe believe ; for our saviour hath said that whosoever believes shall be saved , whosoever believes not shall be damned : as for the purchasing the grace of faith , that we say is so purchased to be conferred absolutly and not upon condition of any worke for that is manifest pelagianisme , and therefore christ dyed not to procure that for all , for then all should believe de facto , & be saved : therefore we say , he dyed to procure this only for his elect . but the arminians doe now openly professe to the world . that christ merited not faith and regeneration for any : so that god meant not , that christ should be given to any for the purchasing of faith for him . so that herein certainly they are more to blame than we , by this authors rules . as for the graces of applying salvation , these are the ministry of the word and sacraments , the long suffering of god , the illumination of mens understandings , the plantation of many exellent vertues in their hearts . i will answer particularly concerning thē all , leaving those many more which he conceales , to his owne enjoying the contemplation of them . and first as touching the ministry of the word and sacraments , we willingly professe , that we find no monument of the americans enjoying of them before the discovery of that westerne world by columbus vesputius , and magellan , no nor to this day in the terra incognita australi , whereof relation is made by ferdenando de quir : but herein i confesse the arminians goe beyond us in there spirituall discoveries ; for , by the catoptricke glasse of their owne fancy , they tell us , that though christ hath not been preached amongst them by man , yet it may be he hath been preacht amongst them by angells , and deliver it for certaine , that having universall grace given them , if they use that well ; as many as use it well shall have the gospell preached unto them , if not by men yet by angells : but as for the administration of the sacraments by . angells also they have discovered nothing unto us hitherunto that i know . and as for gods patience , undoubtedly they enjoy it as much as we , if they be as long lived as we . and i know nothing to the contrary as touching illumination naturall ; that i doubt is not meant to be comprehended under the graces , aplying salvation purchased by christ , yet why not as well as fortitude , liberality , temperance , humility , chastity , and truly herein i doe not find them any whit inferiour unto christians , in some they went beyond us apparently ; if we goe beyond them in any thing , i for my part take it to be in gace rather than nature . as for illumination spirituall , huhumane i know none they had , and as for angelicall revelation that is a dish of lettice for arminian lippes ; i want faith to give me any stomach to it : i come to those exellent vertues which this author pretendes to have been planted in their hearts ; had he spared faith and repentance i could willingly have acknowledged the rest amongst heathens , and that according to gods meaning ; but what soever and in whome soever they are found , he thinks too hardly of us , when he saith , that god according to our opinion , doth not meane them to those that enjoy them : and if he doth meane them unto such , surely they are directed unto them : how is it possible it should be otherwise , especially as touching vertues , yea and the ministry of the word also , for he commanded them to preach the gospell to every creature , to wit , where they came : only we willingly confesse , then he doth not meane any of those shall bring any of them that perish unto salvation . secondly , as touching the lifting up of them up a bove the common ranke of men by these giftes , heare is a miserable confused discourse , so many things being put together , to make up one tearme in a proposition ; but it is beneficiall to some to fish in troubled waters , and if my answer savour of the like confusion it is nothing strange , for he that walkes in the sunne , must needs be coloured . but i think i may say , looke what gifts men have , caeteris paribus , they are above the ranke of those that have them not , but that they are given ut lapsu graviore cadant , that their fall may be the greater , this deserves to be particularly considered . first , in generall , i say whosoever doth by occasion of those gifts here spoken of , fall the more grievously ( which in many particulars is a mystery to me , to the consideration whereof i purpose to descend in the next place ) god did both intend that such a fall of theirs should come to passe by his permission , and that upon such an occasion : for even they that stumble at gods word through disobedience , and expressely said by peter to be ordained thereunto , thus i look out for a ground for that i deliver , giving leave to the adversaries of gods truth to roave at pleasure in the pouring forth of their impious dictates : but come we to the particulars , & first as touching the gifts of nature , i confes as touching the first of them ( creation ) that if that had not been , he had never fallen , but neverthelesse when god resolved to create , he resolved to create all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill , and if i erre in that i have an honourable prophet to be my companion , even solomon himselfe . as for preservation and sustentation , i willingly confesse that if judas had perished before he had been admitted into christs service , his damnation had been the more easy : and god electing him ad prodendum sanguinem ( if i may be so bold as to speak in austins language ) did determine that his sinne by gods permission should be the more grievous , by occasion of his advancement into the number of christs disciples . as for health , strength , beauty , wisdome , i see no reason why they should promote any mans damnation , but that a foole , or an ill-favoured , or a weake , or a sickly person , may be as great a sinner as the wise man , or beautifull , or strong , or healthy . how , because christ died for the salvation of as many as doe believe , which we all hold , or dyed to procure faith & regeneration for none ( as the arminians hold ) any man is promoted to a greater measure of sinne thereby , is a mistery to me . as touching the ministry of the word , saint peter speakes plainly of some , that it had been better for them they had never known the way of right ousnesse , than after they have known it , to depart from the holy commandement given to them , he saith not this of all , & austin professeth of some reprobates , that by the gospell they are called ut proficiant ad exteriorem vitae emendationem quo mitius puniantur . as for the patience of god s. paul professeth plainly , that some after the hardnesse of their hearts which cannot repent , despising the patience and long suffering of god , and therein his goodnesse leading them to repentance , doe thereby treasure up wrath against the day of wrath , and reprobation of the just judgement of god. and i should think that even this god intended should come to passe by his permission , otherwise he would have given them repentance , or shortned their daies , for give me leave to say with austin , quantamlibet prebuerit patientiam , nisi deus dederit , quis agat paenitentiam . contra julian . pelag. l. . c. . as for knowledge , that doth cleerely take away excuse , grounded upon pretence of ignorance , and like as our saviour said to his disciples ioh. . if you know these things happy are yee if you doe them : so likewise the more men know good things , the more unhappy are they , if they doe them not : yet it is not necessary that knowledge should aggravate the damnation of the reprobate , as in case they doe thereby , proficere ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , for in this case surely , mititus punientur , but if they doe grow worse by occasion of their knowledge , we spare not to professe that god intended this should come to passe by his permission , why not as well as the crucifying of the sonne of god ? act. . . as for the vertues in the last place , which here are pretended also to be given to worke for their harme , and among them faith and repentance , we are so farre from affirming , that they are given for the harme of them that perish , that we to the contrary maintaine , that they are given to none but gods elect , and to bring them unto salvation , acts . . as many believed as were ordained to eternall life . and faith is called the faith of the elect . tit. . . and acts . . then hath god also unto the gentiles given repentance unto life . marke it well , not unto death , but unto life : and austin long agoe hath professed , that of those who are not predestinated , god brings not one unto wholsome and spirituall repentance , whereby a man is reconciled unto god in christ . knowledge is here shufled in among the rest of these vertues , as if that were not all one with the illumination of the mind , at least most deservedly to be ranged with it . as for other vertues here mentioned , as fortitude , liberality , temperance , humility , chastity , where these vertues are bestowed after a naturall manner ( for no otherwise , nor in any gracious manner , are they found in reprobates , as i suppose , ready to be called at any time to an account upon that poynt , and to manifest six maine differences between the morall vertues of heathen men , and the same vertues ( in name , and as touching the substance of the acts , wrought by them in christians ) i should think they are rather given for their good that enjoy them , than for their harme , namely , ut profici ant ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quo mitius puniantur . all the harme that may come by them , that i can devise for the present , is to grow proud of them : and i willingly professe , that nothing makes a greater separation from god then pride , and it may be , moralists fret at this , that their morality is no better esteemed of . but what thinke you ? may a man be proud of humility , for that is one of the excellent vertues here specified ; why not , of the naturall humility which is in them ? as sir philip sidney observes in his defence of poetry , that philosophers write bookes against vaine-glory , whereunto neverthelesse they set their names . so they might write books in commendation of humility , and thereunto set their names also . yet i am not truly of such an opinion , as to think , that god should give any of these vertues , to the end they should grow proud of them : for i doe not find it any way requisite to a proud man , that he should be vertuous : for in my judgement , pride is a very humble vice , and disdaines not to dwell in the hearts of the meanest . plato could discerne it through antisthenes his patcht coate : and when diogenes trod under foot platoes hangings , saying , i tread under my foot platoes pride : it is observed that he did this majori festu , with greater pride : and as one sometimes said , a man may be as proud of a cloakebagge which he carrieth behind him , as cardinall campeius was of his sumpter-horse , that followed after him ; and yet that pride of his , might be of no better then of brick-bats when all was known , what shew soever it made unto the people . and men of generous minds , and parts , and meanes answerable , are many times found , through the grace of god , more truly humble , than many a base fellow , that hath nothing to be made reckoning of but his own conceit . as the fly sitting upon the cart wheele in a dry summer , said , see what a dust i make . saint pauls righteousnesse which he speakes of , phil. . i take to be better than the vertue of any philosopher , which yet he accounted but dung , that he might winne christ . but by the way i observe how liberall these men are , in acknowledging the gifts of god in grosse , which they will be found utterly to deny if they be examined upon them in particular . as for example , morall vertues ( we commonly say ) are habitus acquisiti , acquisite habits , and that by frequentation of consimilar acts , whereupon the habit ariseth naturally : now doe these men maintaine that god is the author of these acts , otherwise than by concourse , working in them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle & facere modò velint ? i can shew it under the hands of some of them in expresse termes . now i pray you , is not god the author of every evill act after this manner , as well as of any good , by their own confession ? for they grant that god concurres to every sinnefull act , & works 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle and facere thereof also , modò homines velint . who then is so simple as not to observe , that they make god the author of vertues after no other manner , than they make him the author of vices : yet they are content to talke liberally of the gifts of god , only to cheat the simple ; i meane as many as are not acquainted with their juggling : as for us wee maintaine , that god determines the will , not only to the substance of a good act by determination naturall , but also to the goodnesse of it by determination supernatural : as for example , no vertuous act is truly good , but as it is performed out of the love of god , but what love ? out of such a love of god , as is joyned with the contempt of himselfe ( judge you whether such a love may be performed by power of nature ) and this amor usque ad contemptum sui , gerson makes to be the character of the child of god : like as amor sui usque ad contemptum dei , he make the character of a child of the devill . but to draw to an end of this confused discourse , wherein are clapt together gifts of nature , seaven whereof are reckoned up as creation , sustentation , preservation , health , strength , beauty and wisdome ; and gifts of grace , & that either purchasing salvation as christ , or applying salvation , which are of foure forts . . the ministry of the word & sacraments , . gods patience , . illumination of the mind , . the plantation of many excellent vertues , eight whereof are particulated , as . knowledge , . faith , . repentance , . fortitude , . liberality , . temperance , . humility , . chastity , ( which by this time i have gotten by heart ere i am aware , i am so beaten to it , through a tedious discourse ) of all which hand over head , it is affirmed that either god meanes them not to them that enjoy them , but as they are mingled with the elect , which hath no colour as i can perceive , save of the ministry of the word & sacraments , for is it sober to impute to any , to say that creation , or preservation , or health , strength , beauty , wisdome , or christ himselfe , or gods patience , or illumination of mind , or the vertues he speakes of ; as knowledge , faith , repentance , fortitude , liberality , temperance , humility , chastity , are not given to any , but as they are mingled among the elect ? or that they are given for their hurt : touching this last i answere in briefe , that it is a very absurd thing to say , that god gives any of these gifts to man to this end , that they may by occasion be hurt by them : but god both gives them , and ( in case they prove an occasion of harme , of sinne unto them ) he permits them through occasion from them to sinne , and therein to presevere ( as touching reprobates ) to damne them for their sinnes , to the manifestation of his own glory , in the way of justice vindicative : as also hereby , the more to declare the riches of his glory upon the vessells of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory . rom. . . when they shall find , that had not god put a gracious and mercifull difference between them and others , christ had been a rock of offence , as well unto them as unto others : the gospell had been a savour of death unto death to them , as well as others . all other gifts which god hath bestowed upon them , look in what sort they have been an occasion of falling unto others , so they might have been in like sort , an occasion of falling unto them also : for it is as true as the word of god is true , that the gospell is a savour of death unto death to some : and that christ was set up as well for the falling of some , as for the rising of others : yea a rock to fall upon to both the houses of israell , and as a snare , and as a net to the inhabitants of jerusalem , and many among them shall stumble and shall fall , and shall be broken , and shall be snared , and shall be taken . and that as many as stumble at the word , and are disobedient , they were thereunto ordained . and the holy prophet wanted not faith when he delivered this execration , let their table be a snare before them , and their prosperity thir ruine . and how poorely this author labours to charme the energy of these & such like passages , let the indifferent judge by that which is delivered . as for the last of an absolute decree , cutting off and rejecting some from grace and glory , i will end this with representing the sottish condition of this author , herein parbreaking his stomack , without all judgement and sobriety . first observe , how he claps together grace and glory , as if there were no difference in the manner of gods cutting off from the one & from the other . ( whereas the manner of gods cutting off from the one , as it is maintained by us , is such as impudency it selfe , hath not the face to lay any thing to our charge therein . ) as for the manner of gods cutting off from the other , as it is maintained by us , there is indeed such absolutenesse , as they maligne bitterly , but withall it is so cleerely set down in holy scripture , that their hearts serve them not with open face to vent their spleen against it ; and that is a chiefe reason of this authors declining the other controversies , and keeping himselfe only to this , though i verily think , this hath proceeded from the counsell of his abettors : and for the same reason it is , that he claps togeather the cuting off from grace and glory . but i will take leave to distinguish them , and answer distinctly to both a part , to make their madnesse and unreasonablenesse more apparent . and first i will speake of gods absolute decree of cutting off from glory . now this is well known to be opposed to a decree conditionall , as in the end of the former section this author calls it , and useth it , as according to their own doctrine , in opposition to ours , but most indiscreetely and unlearnedly . this conditionall will of god is to be understood , quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed by god , so vossius accommodates it in his history of the pelagian heresy , as before i have shewed , and makes it all one in effect with gods antecedent will : and d. iaokson in his book of divine providence treating hereof , professeth in plaine termes , that the distinction of voluntas antecedens and consequens , is to be understood , quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed . now the thing willed here , is the cutting off from glory : now this author togeather with his instructer , will have the will of god concerning this , to be conditionall , to wit , that it is gods will , that no man shall be cut off from glory , but for sinne , now we say so too , and professe , that like as god hath not ordained that any shall be damned , but for finall perseverance in sinne : so likewise god hath not ordained that any man shall be cut off from glory , but for finall perseverance in sinne . but whereas the remonstrants maintained , that there is no other decree of reprobation but this , and so likewise on the other side , that there is no decree of predestination , but such as is properly opposite hereunto , namely this , that the decree by which god hath purposed in christ , and for christ , to save those that believe and repent to the end , is the whole and entire decree of predestination unto salvation . on this poynt the contra-remonstrants opposed them : and accordingly our brittaine divines , make this the first erroneous opinion , which they reject upon the first article as touching election . and likewise as touching reprobation , the first erroneous opinion which they reject , is this , that the decree by which god from all eternity , and that irrevocably , hath purposed out of lapsed mankind to leave none , but the impenitent and incredulous in sinne , and under the wrath of god , as being aliens from christ , is the whole and entire decree of reprobation . this i say is the first erroneous opinion which our brittaine divines reject : which this author takes no notice of , but most unlearnedly discovers , that he understands not the state of the question . secondly , now i come to gods absolute decree of cutting off from grace , this we willingly confesse , is meerely absolute and unconditionall quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed by god ; for the things willed by god herein , are the denyall of mercy , and grace , to regenerate some ; the denyall of the grace of faith and repentance , concerning which the apostle professeth , that god proceeds herein , meerely according to the good pleasure of his will , rom. . . he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . rom. . . even as they in times past have not believed god , yet have now obtained mercy through their unbeliefe . where to obtaine mercy , in the apostles language , is plainely as much as to believe . austin in many places justifies this , epist . . ad sixtum . 〈◊〉 ille credat , ille non credat , cum ambo idem audiunt : etsi miraculum in eorum conspectu fiat , ambo idem vident , altitudo est divitiarum sapientiae & scientiae dei : cujus inscrutabilia sunt judici● & apud quem non est iniquitas : dum cujus vult miseretur , & quem vult indurat . and neere the end , audiat haec & non contemnat , quod si contempserit , ut contemneret inveniat se obduratum . enchirid. . quis porro tam impie desipiat ut dicat , deum malas hominum voluntates quas voluerit , quando voluerit , ubi voluerit , in bonum non posse convertere ? sed cum facit pre misericordia facit : cum autem non facit per judicium non facit , quoniam cujus vult miseretur , & quem vult obdurat : here misereri eujus vult , is voluntates hominum quas vult in bonum convertere . see lib. . de grat . christi , contra pelag. & caelest . cap. . he cites this saying out of ambrose . sed deus quem dignatur vocat , & quem vult religiosum fecit . and thereupon breakes out into this exclamation . o sensum hominis dei ex ipso fonte gratiae dei haustum , videte si non propheticum illud est , miserebor cujus misertus ero : & apostolicum illud non volentis neque currentis sed miserentis dei : quia ut dicit etiam nostrorum temporum homo ejus quem dignatur vocat , & quem vult religiosum facit . here misereri , rom. . . is all one with vocare , & religiosum facere . and lib. . ad simplician : cap. . unde datur intelligi , quod infra utrumque posuit , ergo cujus vult miseretur , & quem vult indurat , ita sententiae superiori potest congruere , ut obduratio dei sit nolle misereri , ut non ab illo irrogetur aliquid quo sit homo deterior , sed tantum quo sit melior non erogetur : quod si fit nulla distinctione meritorum , quis non erumpat in eam vocem quam sibi objecit apostolus , dicis itaque mihi , quid adhuc conqueritur , nam voluntati ejus quis resistit : conqueritur enim deus saepe de hominibus sicut per innumerabiles apparet scripturarum locos , quod nolint credere & recte vivere . so that the meliority of man , which god workes sine meritorum distinctione , doth by austins judgement consist in recte vivendo & recte credendo , now here is the proper field of scholasticall combate betwixt us . ecce rhodus , ecce saltus , let them try their strength to the uttermost , to prove that the reason why god regenerates one , and not another , why god bestowes faith and repentance upon one , and not on another , is because man hath disposed himselfe by some good worke performed by him , which another hath not : and when they have proved this , then will we truly confesse , that pelagianismus est vere christianismus , not semi-pelagianismus only , as it was sometimes objected to arminius . but proceed we to the particulars following , for by this doctrine of gods absolute decree in opposition to their conditionall decree , this author saith ; . christ came not into the world to procure the salvation of them that perish . i answere , that look in what sort he came into the world , to procure the salvation of them that perish by their doctrine , after the same sort he came to procure their salvation by our doctrine . for as it is their doctrine , that god decreed that for christs sake , salvation should redound to all that believe , so is this our doctrine also : but we deny that this is the whole decree of predestination . we farther say , that god purposed to bestow faith on some , and not on others , and accordingly to send christ to merit faith and regeneration for them , which the remonstrants in the censura censurae , doe now a daies utterly deny ; and if this author , together with his instructer , think that christ was sent to merit faith and regeneration for all , then either absolutely or conditionally ; if absolutely , then all must believe de facto , and be regenerated ; if conditionally , then let them discover unto us this condition , and avoyd direct pelagianisme if they can . . indeed we think the word is not sent to all that perish , we find it by manifest experience : in reference to ministry humane , and if they have so strenuously rubd their own foreheads , as to faine out of their own heads a ministry angelicall , let them not expect that we should take their forgeries for oracles divine . . it is not true , that where it is sent among them that perish , 't is sent only that they should slight it , it may be sent as well , ut proficiant ad exteriorem vitae emendationem quo mitius puniantur : as for those that doe slight it , and stumble at it , being disobedient , saint peter plainly saith , that hereunto they were ordained . let them therefore cry downe peter first , and then we will take it in good part , to be cryed downe also . and if god sent his sonne into the world to be crucified by some ; why might not he as well send the preaching of christ into the world , to be slighted and despised by others : and saint paul hath professed , that the preachers of it , are unto god a sweet savour in christ , even in them that perish : yet we say not that this is the end why god sends it to any : but we say god both sends it , and permits many to slight it , and to persevere in the contempt of it , that he may manifest his glory in their just condemnation , and declare thereby also the riches of his glory on the vessells of mercy , whom he hath prepared unto glory , by making it appeare , what a mercifull difference god hath put between them , and others . to the particulars subordinate hereunto , i answer distinctly thus . . god deceives none in calling them to salvation , in the name of his sonne , by the preaching of his word , any more by our doctrine , than by the doctrine of this author : for as he maintaines that god intends salvation to all men , no otherwise than in case they believe , so doe we ; and as we maintaine that god doth fully intend to most the contrary , but no otherwise than in case they believe not , so doth he : only as touching the obtaining of faith and regeneration , here is the difference between us : we maintaine with saint paul , that god hath mercy on whom he will , in bestowing the grace of faith and regeneration , and hardeneth whom he will by denying of it ; soe doth not he : and accordingly we say , christ merited faith and regeneration for his elect . but the remonstrants openly professe that he merited faith and regeneration for none at all . hereby let the indifferent judge which of us makes god the greatest deceiver they or we . and the truth is , this author nor his instructer , are willing to discover themselves in this poynt , for feare least nothing should save them from breaking their necks , but to be received upon the featherbed of pelagianisme : so fearfull a precipice is likely there to meet with them ; at the margent of this , there stands a wild quotation thus , suffrag : britaine , p. . as if the author was loath his meaning should be found : or it may be in transcribing the coppy sent him he did mistake . but the article upon which these theses are dilivered he utterly leaves out , like as in his former quotation of the sufferages . but after much searching i guesse i find that which he refers unto on the . article , . position , which is pag : . in synod . dordare : and in the english sufferages of our divines of great britaine , the position is this , whome god doth thus prepare by his spirit ( as was signifyed in the former position ) through the meanes of the word , those doth he truly and seriously invite and call to faith and conversion . i make no question but whatsoever god doth , he doth truly and seriously : and as for that sancta simulatio which this author formerly upbraided our divines with , for attributing it unto god , i have formerly discovered the false nature of that aspertion , though he thought to walke in the clouds , that his jugling might not be discovered . the explicatiō of the position is added thus , by the nature of the benefit offered , and by the evident word of god we must judge of those helpes of graces which are bestowed on men , and not by the abuse of them . therefore when the gospell of its ' owne nature calls men unto repentance and salvation , when the incitements and divine graces tend the same way , wee must not thinke any thing is done fainedly by god ; this is proved too . all these i willingly acknowledge neither doe i know any of our divines that deny it ; and more particularly i am willing to particulate wherein i take it to consist . god hereby doth signify that as many as believe shall be saved : and so i say he doth seriously intend as much ; as likewise , that none shall be saved without faith ; likewise god doth signify , that he is well pleased , with faith and conversion , in whomsoever he finds it , and herein he deales most truly and seriously , likewise hereby he signifies his own will to make it their duty to believe , which also is most true and serious . but none of all these i know full well , will satisfy these with whom wee deale ; unlesse we acknowledge , that god hath a kind of velleity also , both of their conversion and salvation ; but let them shew me any passage out of these suffrages where this is acknowledged . they adde , if god should not seriously invite all whom he vouchsafeth this gift of his word and spirite , to a serious conversion , surely both god should deceive many whom he calls in his sonnes name , and the messengers of the evangelicall promise might be accused of falsewitnesse , and those which being called to conversion , doe neglect to obey , might be more excusable . all this i willingly grant , neither doe i know any divine of ours that denyes it , according to the three particulars formerly specifyed , wherein i desired to explicate the truth and seriousnesse of all this , though those worthy divines of ours goe not so farre . as for their last clause which is this , for that calling by the word and spirit cannot be thought to leave men unexcusable , which is only exhibited to this end , to make them unexcusable . i willingly confesse i doe not sufficiently understand them in this . for albeit i have already particulated divers things werein the seriousnesse of this divine invitation doth consist , ( neither doe i find any end of this divine invitation mentioned at all by these our divines , whom from my heart i honour for their just desert ; ) yet to me it seemes most cleare , that revelation doth so necessarily take away excuse , upon pretence of ignorance , and admonition , and invitation , as necessarily takes away excuse , upon pretence of not being admonished and invited , that if god did invite them to no other end than this , namely to take away these excuses , surely these excuses were clearly taken away , and consequently so farre they should prove unexcusable : but i guesse they take the denomination of inexcusable , not according to the signification formall as it signifyes bereaved of excuse : but rather according to the signification materiall , connotated thereby which is faultinesse , and in this sence i confesse , it is ordinarily taken togeither with the condition of being without excuse , and thus & in this sense i willingly subscribe unto them , and therewithall shew what i take to be their meaning , namely this , that if god , making shew that if they believe he will accept them , and that they shall be saved , did not indeed meane that he would in that case accept and save them , then there were no reason why they should be accounted faulty and condemned for their not believing . thus in a desire exactly to conforme my selfe to the judgement of these worthyes of our church , made choyse of by our soveraign to be sent in so honourable an embassage , to countenance that famous synod of the most reformed churches ; i have made bold to interpret them , and to shew my concurrence with them , although i have not consulted with any of them upon that poynt , which if i had ; like enough i might have received better satisfaction : and i hope they will not disdaine that without consulting them i have adventured thus to interpret them ; and what doe i know whether their judgement may not prove to be the very same , and that in deed they had no other meaning . . my former answer will serve for this , gods ministers doe offer salvation conditionally , to wit , upon condition of faith , neither , are any ordained to be condemned , but in case of infidelity : yet i see the cunning carriage of this authors instructer , for he would faine fly from the absolutenesse , or conditionality of gods decree , as touching the things willed quoad res volitas , unto the absolutenesse or conditionality of it : quoad actum volentis , as touching the act of willing , although both uossius practise , and this authors also in expressing his owne meaning of gods conditionall will , and doctor jacksons profession is to the contrary : namely that it is to be taken quoad res volitas only , and not quoad actum volentis : but withall we teach , that gods ministers doe not only teach upon what tearmes on mans part , god will either bestow salvation , or inflict damnation : but also they teach that upon no tearmes on our parts , but meerely according to the good pleasure of his own will , doth god shew mercy unto some , bestowing faith and repentance upon them , and by denying the same grace harden others , and they are the true witnesses of god , equally in both . . neither is there any iust excuse hereby left to reprobates , yet i confesse , this were a very plausible pretence , if we had no oracles of god at all to be the rule of our faith , concerning god , and his providence : but as we have , so we faile not therein , of a direct answer hereunto , rom. . for after the apostle had professed , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth : v. . forthwith he brings in this ojection upon the stage v. . thou wilt say then , why doth he yet complaine ? for who hath resisted his will ? and both bellarmine and arminians confesse , that where obduration hath place , there is no power of obedience : and the apostle himselfe implyes no lesse in that place . now what doth the apostle answer hereunto but this v. . o man who art thou , which disputest with god ? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it why hast thou formed me thus ? . hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lumpe to make one vessell to honour and another to dishonour ? as much as to say , if god be acknowledged to be our creatour , we must give him leave to doe what he will with his creature , for doth not every creature doe what he will with the worke of his hand ? every tradesman in his trade takes as much liberty to doe with the workmanship of his hands , as this comes to . and medina hath not spared to professe , and that tanquam ex concordi omnium theologorum sententiâ : that if god should inflict the very paines of hell upon an innocent creature ; he shall doe no unjust act , though herein he should not carry himselfe as judex , judge , but as dominus vitae & mortis as lord of life amd death . and we all know what power god giveth us over inferiour creatures , to strangle some , to cut the throats of others , to knocke downe others , not with reference to the moderation of their paine , but only to the wholsome condition of their flesh unto us . and we know what power god executed upon his own deare sonne to break him for our iniquityes , on him to lay the chastisement of our peace , that so by his stripes we might be healed . but let that passe , let us try another way that may be answered unto this . suppose not one shall be condemned for want of faith , but only left to be judged by the covenant of workes , who seeth not but that the same plea hath place here as well as in the former case , and god may be as well chalenged for injustice , in condemning men for breach of the law , who have no power to keepe the law ? and who sees not how ready this author is to justifye this plea , and consequently acknowledge that every man hath power to keepe the law ; and so to bring us back againe to the covenant of works , or to confound the covenant of grace with the covenant of works : which indeed is their course throughout . for they maintaine that every man hath universall grace for the enlivening of their wills , whereby they are inabled to will any spirituall good whereto they shall be excited , and who doubts but obedience to the law , and that in all perfection , is a spirituall good : againe they maintaine that they can believe if they will , and so accordingly doe any good thing that they will : and indeed were not the will in fault , i know no naturall power defective in the performance of any good , that a man hath a will unto : this i can shew under the hands of one of them , in a manuscript sent unto me . and i have good reason to conceive there are more hands in it than one . thirdly consider , dost thou complaine thou hadst no power to believe , but i pray thee tell me , hast thou any will to believe ? if thou neither hast , nor ever hadst any will to believe , what a shamefull and unreasonable thing is it to complaine that thou hast no power to believe ? saint paul had a most gratious will , but he found in himselfe no power to doe that he would , but what is the issue of this complaint ? to fly to the face of god ? nothing lesse ! but to confesse his own wretchednesse , and flee unto god in this manner , who shall deliver me from the body of this death ? and receiving a gracious answer concerning this , concludes with thankes , i thank my god through my lord jesus christ : if i have a will to believe , to repent , i have no cause to complaine , but to runne rather unto god with thankes for this , and pray him to give that power , which i find wanting in me . and indeed ( as i may adde in the fourth place ) this impotency of believing , and infidelity , the fruit of naturall corruption common to all , is meerely a morall impotency , and the very ground of it is , the corruption of the will : therefore men cannot believe , cannot repent , cannot doe any thing pleasing unto god , because they will not , they have no delight therein ; but all their delight is carnall , sensuall , and because they are in the flesh they ●annot please god : and because of the hardnesse of their hearts they cannot repent , sinne is to them as a sweet morsell unto an epicure , which he rolleth under his tongue . fiftly , dost thou blaspheame god , because of leprous parents , thou art begot and conceived , and borne a leprous child ? what impudency then is it in thee , to challenge him for injustice , in that the spirituall leprosy of thy first parents , is propagated to thy soule . lastly , if thou renouncest the gospell , what reason hast thou to complaine of want of power to embrace it , so farre as not to renounce it ? hast thou not as much power to believe , as simon magus had ? as many a prophane person and hipocrite hath , that is , bred and brought up in the church of god ? hadst thou gone so farre as they , and performed submission unto the gospell , by profesing it , surely thou shouldest never be brought to condemnation for not professing of it , but rather for not walking according to the rule of it ; which thou promisedst when first thou gavest thy name to christ . i come to the third . . look what the word promiseth , that doe the sacraments scale : the word promiseth justification & salvation to all that beleive , the same doth the sacraments seal . as circumsion rom. . . is said to be the seale of the rightiousnes of faith so is baptisme : it did in our saviours dayes and in the dayes of his apostles seale to the believer , and penitent person the assurance of the forgivenesse of their sinnes ; over and above baptisme is the sacrament of our birth in christ , and the lords supper of our growth in christ , each an outward and visible signe of an inward & invisible grace . but what is the grace were of the sacrament is a signe ? is it a power to doe good if a man will ? call you that grace which is not so much as goodnesse , for certainly goodnesse consists not in a power to doe good if a man will , but in a definite inclination of the will it selfe , to delight in that which is good , and to be prone to doe it . but this grace whereof baptisme is a signe , is suo tempore conferenda , like as circumcision was , even to those jewes who yet were not regenerated , untill they were partakers of the gospell . jam. . . of his own will hath he begotten us by the word of truth . writing unto the twelve tribes of the jewes . and it is very strange to me , that regeneration should so many years goe before vocation . but this opposite doctrine , and the sealing of a blanke is nothing strange to me : i was acquainted with it twenty yeares agoe , and i seeme plainly to discerne the chimney from whence all the smoake comes . . as for other gifts bestowed on the reprobates . . we willingly confesse they shall never bring them to salvation , be they as great as those who were bestowed on aristotle , plato , aristides , sophocles , and the most learned morall and wise men of the world , that never were acquainted with the mystery of godlinesse : it was wont to be received generally for a truth , that extra ecclesiam non est satus ; but arminians take liberty to coyne new articles of our creed . . but yet they may doe them good , hereby they may proficere ad exteriorem vitae emendationem quo mitius puniantur . for certainly it shall be easier in the day of udgement , for cicero then for cattline , for augustus than for tiberius , for trajan than for heliogabalus . . and therefore it is certainly false that they are hurtfull , and that they proceed out of extreme hatred . and as for love , the scripture teacheth us that jacob was loved of god , and esau hated , each before they were borne . such is the condition of all the elect as jacob , of all the reprobates as esau ; and in thomas aquinas his judgement , non velle alicui vitam aeternam est ipsum odisse . knowledge i confesse of the mysteries of godlinesse , where life and conversation is not answerable , doth encrease mens condemnation : neither is god bound to change the corrupt heart of any man : if they are workers of iniquity christ will not know them at the great day , though they have prophesyed in his name , and in his name cast out devills ; neither was it ever heard of , that the graces of edification , and graces of sanctification must goe together , and that god in giving the one , is bound to give the other . as for being proud of them , pride for ought i know , requires no other causes but domesticall corruption : but he that acknowledgeth god to be the giver of any gift , and hath an heart to be thankfull for it , i make no doubt but he hath more grace than of edification only : certainly the gifts they have , sinke them not to hell , but their corrupt heart in abusing them . and hath a man no cause to be thankfull unto god for one gift , unlesse he will adde another ? the gentiles are charged for unthankfulnesse rom. . but it seems by this authors divinity , it was without cause , unlesse we will with this author say , they all had sufficiency of meanes without , and power within to bring them to salvation : and what had israell more ? or the elect of god more in any age ? true , for according to the arminian tenet , an elect hath no more cause to be thankfull to god for any converting grace , than a reprobate . in a word , what good act wrought in the heart of man , whether of faith or of repentance , or any kind of obedience , hath man cause to be thankfull to god for , when god workes it in him no otherwise than modó homo velit , and so they confesse he workes every sinfull act ? have they not in this case more cause to thank themselves than to thank god ? and unlesse we concurre with them in so shamelesse , unchristian , gracelesse , and senselesse an opinion , and in effect , if god converts the heart of man according to the meere pleasure of his will , and hardeneth others : all the gifts that he bestowes on man , are censured by this audacious censurer , as sauls bestowing michal on david , jaells courtesy , and usurers bounty , &c. or a baite for a poore fish , as if god needed any such course to permit him to sinne in what kind or degree soever , to expose him to any degree of condemnation ; or as if the creator hath not power to doe what he will with his creature , any more than an usurer hath over his poore brother , or saul over david , or the like . thus the consideration of his third reason i have brought to an end . i come to the fourth . discourse . the fourth reason . it is prejudiciall to piety . sect . i. my fourth generall against absolute reprobation is , it is a hinderance of piety : it serveth to discourage holinesse , and encourage prophanenesse . it makes ministers negligent in preaching , praying , and every duty else , that tends to the eternall good of their people . it makes people carelesse also of hearing , reading , praying , instructing their families , examining their consciences , fasting and mourning for their sinnes , and all other godly exercises . in a word , it cuts asuder in my opinion the very sinewes of religion , and pulls away the strongest inducements to an holy life . therefore it is no true and wholsome doctrine . that it doth so , it will appeare these two waies that follow . . it takes away ( hope ) and ( feare ) hope of attaining any good by godlinesse ; feare of sustaining any hurt by wickednesse : and so it takes away two principall props of religion . this reason may be resolved into two branches . hope and feare uphold godlinesse : were it not for these it would fall to ruine : by these are men strongly led on to vertue , and with-held from vice . . hope doth ( excitare ) stirre men up to beginne , and ( corroborare ) strengthen in the doing of any good action begunne . by this hope of heaven did our saviour stirre up himselfe to endure the crosle and despise the shame heb. by this he heartned his disciples to doe and suffer for his sake math. . . abraham left his country and kindred at gods call , because he looked for a citty whose builder and maker was god. heb. . , , . moses left all the pleasures and treasures of aegypt , and endured afflictions with the people of god , because he saw him that was invisible v. . the martyrs endured racks , gibbets , lyons , sword , fire , with a world of other torments , because they looked for a better resurrection , v. . paul endeavours alwaies to keep a good conscience through the hope of a blessed resurrection . acts . . all the heroicall acts of active and passive obedience , have sprung from the hope of a weight of glory . husbandmen , souldiers , merchants , are all whetted on by hope to diligence in their callings , as daily experience shewes . hope ( saith aquinas ) confert ad operationem , and he proveth it first by scripture cor. . . he which eareth and thresheth must eare and thresh in hope : and then by a twofold reason . . from the nature of hopes object , bonum arduum & possible , some excellent good attainable by industry . existimatio ardut excitat attentionem , hope to get that by paines , which is conceived to be a thing of worth , stirres up to paines taking . . from the effect of hope , which is delectatio , an inward pleasure , which the party that lives under hope is affected with by his hope . there is no man which hath an inward contentment and satisfaction of heart in the work that he hath to doe , but goes on merrily . the hope of heaven therefore is a great encouragement to piety . . the feare of hell also is a strong curb to hold men in from wickednesse , and therefore ( saith one ) god hath planted in men a feare of vengeance , that by it , as the ship by the rudder , the soule may be presently , turn'd aside from any rocks , or gulfes , or quick-sands of sinne , when it is neere them , and so may steere its course another way . for this cause , feare of god , and abstaining from evill , are often joyned together in scripture job . . . exod. . . and the want of this feare is made the root of all licentiousnesse in sinning gen. . . nor doth feare only hinder a bad action , but it promotes a good . it hinders a bad action directly , because it is fuga mali , a flying from that evill of misery , which is annexed to the evill of sinne ; and it promotes a good action accidentally , because men think that they are never so safe from the mischiefe which they feare , as when they are exercised in such imployments as tend to the getting of a contrary state . worke out your salvation ( saith the apostle ) with feare and trembling ; implying , that the working out of salvation goes not on handsomly except the fear of missing it be an ingredient to the work . the second branch of this reason is , that by the absolute decree feare and hope are taken away . for hope is properly exercised about bonum futurum & possibile haberi , some good thing that may be obtained , not a good thing that must be obtained of necessity : and the object of feare is malum possibile vitari , an evill that may be escaped . for metus est fuga mali , feare is a flying from evill , and therefore supposeth that the evill is avoydable ; for no man will fly from an evill that cannot be prevented , but will yeild himselfe up to it , as caesar did to the murtherers in the senate house . now by this decree heaven and hell are not objecta possibilia , but necessaria . heaven shall unavoydably be obtained , by those that are elected , and hell must as certainly be endured , by those that in gods eternall purpose are rejected . for men have no power to alter their eternall states : all men by this decree , are precisely determined ad unum , to one state , to necessary salvation , or necessary damnation , without any power or liberty to choose whether . and from hence the conclusion is cleere , that the absolute decree , takes away the chiefest inducements to holinesse , and determents from wickednesse , and consequently hinders a godly life exceedingly . twisse . consideration . travailers report of the territory of venice , that the farther they goe into it , the stronger and stronger they find it . but such is not the condition of this authors discourse ; for the farther i wade into it , the weaker and weaker it appeares . and to this i answer first in generall , that our brittaine divines make answer to the like crimination made against our doctrine upon the . article p. . according to the english translation of it ; saying , both gods truth , and mans experience , easily wipe off this aspersion . for this christian perswasion of perseverance and salvation , not only in respect of its own nature , but also according to the very event in the church , doth by gods blessing produce a quite contrary effect . first in respect of the thing it selfe . the certainty of the end doth not take away , but establish the use of the meanes . and the same holy men , who upon sure grounds promise unto themselves , both constancy in the way of this pilgrimage , and fruition of god in their everlasting home , know also that these are not obtained without performance of the duties of holinesse , and the avoydance of contrary vices : and therefore they turne not their backs from these meanes , but industriously embrace and prosecute them . iohn . . every man that hath this hope in himselfe , purifyeth himselfe , even as he is pure . esay . . when hezechiah had received that promise from god of an addition of fifteen years to his life , he did not therefore neglect the use of medicines or meat , but , that this promised event might be brought into act , he applyed for the cure of his body , the plaister which was prescribed unto him by the prophet . the apostle doth altogether reiect this consequence of carnall security imputed to this doctrine , and that with a kind of indignation rom. . . shall we continue in sinne that grace may abound ? god forbid . how shall we which are dead to sinne , live any longer therein ? as if s. paul would intimate unto us , not only the incongruity , but also the impossibility of such a sequel . . as touching the event ; true it is , that any the most wholsome truth of god , may be perverted by the abuse of men . but upon this doctrine , we cannot acknowledge that there groweth any such inconvenience , no not de facto , that is , in the event it selfe . let us take a view of the reformed churches , in which this confidence of perseverance and inviolable adoption is believed and maintained . doe we find that thereupon the bridle is let loose unto ryot ? that piety is trampled downe ? we give thankes unto god through our lord jesus christ , that amongst ours ( who enjoy this full perswasion of spirituall comfort , and are confident that there is an inheritance which cannot be lost , laid up for them in heaven ) there is not found lesse care of godlinesse , nor lesse endeavour ( so farre forth as mans infirmity will suffer ) to live an unblameable life , then is to be found among any sort of these , who pinne their perseverance on their own free will , and will not grant it to flow from any foregoing election of god. this may suffice for answer to the generality of the crimination . from the generality he descends to specialties . and in the first place he urgeth , it takes away hope and feare . he beginnes with hope , and enlargeth himselfe in the commendation thereof out of scripture , by this hope of heaven , did our saviour stirre up himselfe to endure the crosse , and despise the shame . heb. . he could not alleadge a more pregnant passage to cut his own throat , and mortify the vigour of his argument ; for in this place it depends upon such a notion of hope , as signifies only a possibility of obtaining a future good , and not a necessity of obtaining it , as afterwards himselfe accommodates it , and so he will have the hope which here he insists upon , such as is mixed with feare ; as if our saviour were in doubt of obtaining a crowne of glory . by this he heartned his disciples to suffer for his sake . math. . . rejoyce and be glad for great is your reward in heaven . here also we have no hope mixed with fear , whereupon he heartens them ; but the very assurance of faith grounded upon christs promise , and what greater assurance then this ? the like promise for assurance of faith is made math. . . and indeed hope in the scripture phrase ( though in these places there is no mention thereof ) is but an expectation of enjoying that whereof we have a certain assurance by faith. the object of faith being verbum rei , of hope , res verbi , as luther is said to distinguish them . such is the hope signified by our looking for the saviour phil. . . for therefore we look for him , because we are perswaded by the assurance of faith , that he shall come , and that as a saviour unto us , as there 't is expressed in these words , who shall change our vile bodies , and make them like to his glorious body . such is the hope mentioned , col. . . as grounded upon their true knowledge of the grace of christ v. . and upon their faith v. . for upon believing we rejoyce with joy unspeakable and glorious , pet. . and this joy is in hope of the glory of god , rom. . . of the same nature is that hope tit. . . so abrahams looking for a city whose builder and maker is god. heb. . , , . but was not this hope of his grounded upon assurance of faith to enjoy it ? so moses his seeing of him that was invisible , was by the eye of faith . and the scope of that whole chapter , is for the commendation of faith ; a faith therefore they had of a better resurrection , and the certainty hereof , was the certainty of faith . now let every sober reader judge , which of our doctrines doth more tend to the justifying of a certainty of salvation , the arminians or ours . that which followeth of the husbandmen , merchants , souldiers , is farre of another nature ; their hopes of their ends have no ground of faith : many times it comes to passe , that spem mentita seges , & though aliquis pendens in cruce vota facit , yet most commonly it proves but a vaine hope . merchants many times prove bankrupts ; and souldiers when they are most erected with hope of victory , doe sometimes most shamefully take the foyle : what a proud message did benhadab send to ahab king. . . the gods doe so to mee , and more also , if the dust of samaria be enough to all the people that follow mee , for every man an handfull . but ahab answered him saying . let not him that girdeth his harnesse boast himselfe as he that putteth it off . at the battle of lipsich upon tillies defeating of the duke of saxony , word hereof was dispatched with post hast to the emperour , together with some of the dukes ensignes , and scoffes upon the duke himselfe ; they were confident of beating sweden and that so all germany should be theirs ; but herein that old lad reckoned before his host ; the same post brought heavy newes to vienna at length , of a great discomfiture to the imperialists , and of the victorious army of the king of sweden . yet a hope not only upon weake , but sometimes upon very vaine grounds , stirres up the spirit ; how much more upon certain grounds of good successe , as that of the apostle rom. . sinne shall not have the dominion over you , for yee are not under the law but under grace , therefore let not sinne raigne over you , as much as to say , play the men , fight valiantly the lords battailes against sinne and satan , for yee shall have the victory in the end . the feare of hell is a curbe to hold men in from wickednesse i willingly confesse , but the knowledge hereof is not naturall , but by revelation divine , which to carnall men who live by fight is of little force : witnesse the story of the welch-man who robbing an honest man upon the high way , and being told by him , that he should answer for it at the day of judgement , saist thou me so ( quoth the thiefe ) and wilt thou trust me till that day , then give me thy cloake too . we finde by experience , the most uncleane person , if he meets with never so beautifull a piece , yet if he knowes shee hath the poxe ; the feare of infection will be of more power to restraine him then the feare of hell. yet god by his word workes in men , ( even in carnall men ) as a tast of the sweetnesse of heaven , so of the bitternesse of hell ; the one to erect with hope , the other to awe with feare : and in both respects they may be said ( in my judgement ) to have a tast of the powers of the world to come . and like as the law was added because of transgression , that is , to restraine transgression , as some expound it : so likewise the representation of gods wrath and jealousy , may in the sanctions thereof have good force in this . and in the godly also i make no question , but it is of good use ; though the love of god , hath in great measure overcome that servile feare ; yet as their faith is not so perfect , as to be voyd of all doubting , so neither is their hope so perfect , as to be free from all mixture of feare : but the chast feare , the filiall feare , feare of displeasing god who hath been so gracious unto them , is that feare which is predominant in such . and even feare of gods fatherly chastisements in this world , is an hedge of thornes keeping them within the goodnesse of the lord , and farre more forcible then the feare of hell fire to the carnall gospeller . and this author doth carry himselfe very unlearnedly in confounding their differences , and discoursing of the feare of god without distinction ; as if the feare of of god in job . . . were the feare of hell , and the feare of the midwives exod. . . as if there were no difference between servile feare , and a filiall feare . saint paul was so confident of his salvation , that he professeth his perswasion , that neither death , nor life , nor angells , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height , nor depth , nor any other creature , should be able to separate him from the love of god , which is in christ jesus . rom. . . yet cor. . . knowing therefore ( saith he ) the feare of the lord we perswade men . gen. . . abraham said , the feare of god is not in this place , therefore they will kill me for my wifes sake . but doth this author carry himselfe as it becomes a divine , to take the feare of god , wheresoever he meets with it , for no other feare then the feare of hell. certainly the feare of god is as a fountaine of life to avoyd the snares of death . yet i presume though our saviour was nothing affected with the feare of hell , yet was he never a whit the lesse forward to all holy coversation ; nor paul neither , though he professeth , i know whom i have trusted &c. the lord will deliver me from every evill worke , and preserve me to his heavenly kingdome . that feare and trembling phil. . . is not feare of hell , but humility , standing in opposition to presumption of a mans own strength ; as appears by the reason , wherewith the apostle enforceth that exhortation of his , to worke out our salvation with feare and trembling : for saith he , god it is that worketh in you both the will and the deed , according to his good pleasure . and if the working out of our salvation goes not on handsomely , except the feare of missing it , be an ingredient to the worke , as this author discourseth ; then it seemes his feare of missing makes him goe on more handsomely , in working out his salvation , then either paul the apostle , or our saviour did : for i no where find that our saviour feared the missing of it ; no nor paul neither , after his conversion ; though he knew full well , that conscionable carriage in his vocation , was a necessary meanes , without which he could not obtaine it ; and therefore professeth , that he did beat downe his body , and bring it in subjection , least preaching unto others himselfe should become a cast away . we deny that by the absolute decree maintained by us , hope and feare are taken away ; and we prove it by an invincible argument . for undoubtedly the decree of christs salvation , was absolute , yet did not this take away either hope or feare : for it is recorded of him , that for the hope that was set before him , he despised the shame , and also , that he was heard in that which he feared : though sinfull feare , and slavish feare , was farre from him , as farre as hell from heaven . the object of christian hope is not only a good thing possible to be had , but certainly to be had . for we read of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . heb. . a full assurance of hope , were it of a thing uncertaine , how indecent were it for the apostle to compare it to an anchor iohn . . he that hath this hope purgeth himselfe as he is pure . was this a wavering hope , grounded upon an uncertain apprehension ? marke the verse immediately preceding , and consider whether it doth not enforce the contrary . now are we the sonnes of god , but yet it is not made manifest what we shall be : and we know ( marke his assurance well ) that when he shall be made manifest , we shall be like him , for we shall see him as he is . the description of feare , is answerable to the description of hope . we were wont to define the one by the expectation , appropinquantis boni , the other by the expectation imminentis mali . yet it is true the object of the one is such a good , as in its own nature is possible to be obtained , and of the other , is such an evill as is possible to be avoyded . but like as eternall life is not attainable without faith and repentance ; so neither is damnation avoydable , but by faith and repentance . and we willingly grant that both eternall life is attainable , and damnation avoydable by faith and repentance , yet undoubtedly the unpreventable nature of an evill , doth no way hinder a mans feare , unlesse he knowes it to be unpreventable . neither doth the knowledge of the unpreventable nature thereof hinder feare , but improveth it rather , in as much as in such a case , there is no place for any hope to qualify the feare . and this is farther apparent by the example of the devills , of whom saint iames saith that they believe and tremble , surely they doe not tremble the lesse , because their torment is unpreventable by the appoyntment of of god : yet doe they not give themselves up to their sorrowes , but cryed out to our saviour , what have we to doe with thee thou jesus the sonne of god , art thou come to torment us before our time : caesars case was not the case of feare , for feare is the apprehension of an evill before it come ; but caesar was so farre from fearing , that though he were forewarned to take heed of the ides of march ( as i remember ) least they proved fatall to him , was so far from apprehending any feare thereupon , that going that day to the senate house , and meeting by the way with him who had given him that warning , he called him by his name , and to shew his fearlesse condition sayd , the ides of march are come ; true s r quoth the other , but they are not yet past . the mortall wound in the senate house was given him before he feared it ; for of thirty and odde wounds there received , it is written that every one of them was mortall . his heroicall spirit bare him out neverthelesse ( not against the feare , for that was now out of season , but ) against the sense of mortall paine , in such sort , as not to commit any indecent thing , in dying under the hands of so many assassinates either in word or deed ; for not a word of distemper , was uttered by him , only to brutus his neere kinsman , and deare unto him , when he came upon him in like manner as the rest , he said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and took care to gather his garments in such sort about ut honeste caderet . heaven and hell are ordained by god as the portion , of the righteous the one , of the wicked the other . i hope this author will not deny but that heaven ( according to his phrase ) was unavoydably obtained by our saviour , yet this nothing hindred his hope , but rather confirmed it by casting out of feare . and the hope of christ is the first thing this author instanceth in , while he amplifies the nature of hope ; but in his large expatiation thereon , according to his course he spent so much time , that he might well forget it , before he come to the accommodation of it unto his argument . and indeed hope in scripture phrase , is the looking for of christ , and the glory he brings with him ; and what a senselesse thing is it to conceive , that the more sure we are of blessednesse , the lesse we should expect and look for the enjoyment of it ? doth not our saviour bid his disciples luke . . not to rejoyce in this , that devills are subdued unto them , but rather to rejoyce in this , that their names are written in heaven . now let any sober man judge , whether this joy shall be of force to expectorate our hope , and not rather to confirme and increase it . as for hell , i know none are assured thereof , as of their due portion , but the devills , yet they feare and tremble never a whit the lesse for that . but men while they live on earth , not one of them in particular that i know are , or have any just ground to be assured of their damnation . for albeit faith in christ may well be an assurance of mans election ; yet nothing but finall perseverance in infidelity or impenitency , can be a just assurance to any man of his damnation . as for the eternall states of men , they are not existent , but only in gods intention , and consequently to alter their eternall states , is to alter gods intentions . now what arminian of these daies , that is of any learning and judgement , dares boldly affirme , that it is in the power of the creature to alter gods intentions . in like sort with what sobriety can any man deny , that every man is determined either to salvation or damnation , the prescience of god being sufficient hereunto ; and we acknowledge that none is ordained by god to be damned , but for finall perseverance in sinne unrepented of : none to be saved of ripe yeares , but by way of reward for his faith , obedience , repentance . as for power and liberty to choose either , let that be first rightly stated : moses deut. . . ( or the lord rather by him ) professeth that he hath set before them life and death ; and exhorts them to choose life , the meaning whereof is to choose that , the consequent whereunto is life ; now that was obedience unto the lawes and holy ordinances of god. now as touching the power and liberty , to choose this , we say , . that this power was given to all in adam , and we have all lost it in him through sinne : for we all sinned in him , as the apostle in expresse tearmes professeth rom. . . . the power that we have lost in adam , is no naturall power , but a morall power like unto that whereof the lord speaketh by the prophet jeremy . jere. . . can a blackamore change his skinne ? or the leopard his spotts ? no more can you doe good , that are accustomed to evill . nor will any sober man judge that such an impotency as this doth make a man excusable ? in the like sort our saviour unto the jewes : iohn . . . how can yee believe that receive honour one of another , and seek not the honour that comes of god only ? so that this impotency is meerly morall , arising from the corruption of their wills . had a man a will to believe to repent , but withall had no power to believe and repent though he would , here indeed were a just cause of excuse : but all the fault hereof is in the will of man. this our britaine divines at the synod of dort upon the . and . articles of the second position expresse in this manner . the nature of man being by voluntary apostacy habitually turned from god the creatour , it runs to the creature , with an unbridled appetite , and in a lustfull and base manner commits fornication with it , being always desirous to set her heart and rest on those things which ought only to be used on the by , and to attempt and accomplish things forbidden . what marvell then if such a will be the bondslave to the devill . the will without charity is nothing but a vitious desire , inordinata cupiditas . aug : retract . . . . yet the same austin professeth lib. . de gen. cont : manich : cap. . credere possunt & ab amore visibilium rerum & temporalium , se ad ejus praecepta servanda convertere si velint . and ad marcel . de spiritu & littra . proves at large that fides in voluntate est . only it is the grace of god to prepare the will , ut velit , and so to encrease with the gift of charity ut possit , so that there is a great deale of difference between posse si velit , and posse simpliciter , in austins judgment posse si velit is lesse then velle , but posse simpliciter , is more then velle . . lastly what meanes this author to discourse thus hand overhead of power and liberty to choose whether as if ( whatsoever they pretend ) their true meaning were , that man hath power to believe and repent without grace . for as for power to believe and repent through gods grace no man denyes . why then doth he not try his strength on this point which indeed is the criticall point of these controversies , and wherein it will clearly appeare , whether they differ one iot from the pelagians . for the question between the pelagians , and the catholiques in austins dayes was not about the possibility of willing or doing that which is good , but only about the act of willing and doing : and herein they granted instruction and exhortation requisite . all the question was about the working of his will , to will and doe that which is good , as appeares by austin in his booke de gratia christi contra pelag : & caelesti : cap. . and repeated againe towards the end , coming to an issue of the businesse , after he had discovered much concerning ambrose his opinieon thereabouts . but whatsoever his premises be , in his conclusion he commonly speakes it home , as herein saying , it is cleare that the absolute decree , takes away the cheifest inducements to holinesse , and determents from wickednesse , to wit , because it takes away hope and feare ; whence it followeth , that seeing christ had hope of heaven , he was not absolutely destinated unto glory . and seeing the devills are said to believe and tremble , therefore certainly their damnation is yet preventable , although there is yet this maine difference between reprobate men on earth , and devills , that though the devills are assured of their reprobation , yet no man either is , or can by any ordinary way be assured of his reprobation . i conclude thus , this his discourse tends mainly against all certainty of salvation : whence it followes , that either he had no certainty of his salvation while he was with us , or if he had , it stands him upon now to professe that he hath utterly lost it . discourse . sect . ii. . the injuriousnesse of this doctrine to godly life , may farther appeare by these considerations that follow , one depending upon another . . absolute and peremptory decrees are inevitable , whatsoever the things be about which they are exercised ; and mens everlasting states , if they be absolutely determined , are altogether undeclinable . stat sali lex indeclinabilis , the law of destiny is undeclinable . and the reason is , because it hath an inevitable cause , the adamantine decrees of allmighty god , which are indeclinable two wayes . . irreversible , lyable to no repeale ( as the statutes are which are made in our parliaments : ) but sarre more unalterable then the lawes of the medes and persians . as i have spoken so will i bring it to passe : i have purposed , and i will doe it . esay . . . men doe many times bite in their words againe , because they doe utter things rashly , and doe repeale their statutes and ordinances , because they see some inconveniences in them , which they could not foresee : but god never alters or calls in his absolute decrees because they are all made with great wisdome and foresight . . irresistible . it lies not in the power of any creature to disanull them . who hath resisted his will ? rom. . . our god is in heaven : he doth whatsoever he will : psal . . . whatsoever is once determined by his absolute will is no wayes alterable by the will of man. it is more possible for a man to hinder the rising of the sunne , or to stay his course in the heaven , to stop the revolutions of the yeare , and overturne the whole course of nature , then to make the least alternation in any of gods absolute decrees . . mens actions about ends , and things determined by an absolute decree are vaine and fruitlesse ; and the reason is , because they cannot make them otherwise then they were determined to be ; and therefore in vaine doe men labour to obtaine everlasting life and avoid eternall death , if there be noe liberty and power in their hands to choose life or death , but must of necessity take that which is assigned them , be it life or death ; for by their labour they effect just nothing ; for if they be absolutely appointed to distruction , their hearing , reading , praying , almes-giving , and mourning for their sinnes cannot possibly procure their salvation ; damned they must be . and if they be absolutely ordayned to savation , their neglect of holy dutyes , their ignorance , their love of pleasures and continuance in a course of ungodlinesse , cannot bring them unto damnation ; they must be saved : if somany soules in a parish be in this manner decreed to heaven or hell , the minister preacheth in vaine , and the people heare in vaine . for there cannot one soule be saved , for all their paines , which is ordained to hell , nor one soule be cast away by their negligence , which is appoynted for heaven . it is in vaine for thee ( saith christ to saul ) to kicke against the pricks : ( i. ) to endeavour by thy persecutions and slaughters to root out my church in the world ; because the preservation of it is absolutely decreed in heaven . teaching us by that speech , that a mans labour in any thing whatsoever , is never profitable , except it be exercised about an end attainable thereby , and without it not possible . , men are not willing to be employed in fruitlesse actions if they knowe it . i so runne ( saith the apostle ) not as uncertainely ; so fight i , not as on that beates the ayre : but i keep under my body and bring it into subjection , least that by any meanes , when i have preached unto others i my selfe should be a cast-away . the meaning is , i endeavour to keepe gods commandements , i fight with the tentations of the divill the allurements of the world , and mine owne corruptions , i keep my body low by watchings and fastings , and other severe acts of holy discipline . but cui bono ? doe i all this at randome ? uncertaine whether i shall get any good , or prevent any mischiefe hereby ? no , but i doe this , as one that is sure that by so doing , i shall obtaine eternal life , and otherwise i cannot escape eternall death : intimating in these words the common disposition of men , which is to labour where some proportionable good is to be gotten , or evill prevented , otherwise to spare their heads and their hands too . twisse consideration . to talke of the decrees divine as things evitable or inevitable , is very absurd : for things denominated evitable or inevitable are only things to come , not yet existent ; but such are not decrees divine , they are as everlasting as god himselfe without any begining of duration . as for the things decreed by god , they are of a double nature . for god hath decreed some things to come to passe necessarily , other things to come to passe contingently . now those things that come to passe contingently do so come to passe ( and that by the decree of god ) as joyned with a possibility not to come to passe , and consequently to come to passe so as ioyned with a possibility to be avoyded . such are salvation and damnation in as much as god hath annexed these as rewards , unto finall perseverance in faith and repentance , the one ; unto finall perseverance in sinne unrepented of , the other . this is the undeclinable law of gods decree , that , whosoever believes shall be saved and whosoever believes not shall be damned . but we doe not say , that this is the whole decree of predestination and reprobation , with the remonstrants , and with this author . but that there is another decree of god , the effect whereof is as undeniable , as the effect of the former , which this author dissembleth throughout : and the effect of this decree is not conditionall like unto the effects of the former decree , but absolute . and it is the more strange that this author should so much insist upon the effects of the former , & nothing at all on this : wheras the effects of the former nothing at all serve his turne , but through meere confusion : for he carieth the matter so as if we maintained that god doth decree to dispense salvation and damnation absolutly according to the meare pleasure of his will , and not conditionally as he finds his creatures either dying in faith or dying in sinne , which is most untrue . and yet his usuall course to relieve himselfe in the case of impertinency and extravagancy is to fly to the effects of the other decree which we willingly confesse to be absolute ; yet hath he no appetite to deale directly in the discussing thereof . now we professe that as god according to the meere pleasure of his will bestowes faith and repentance on some and denies it to others , according to that of the apostle . he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth . rom. . . so god from everlasting decreed , according to the meere pleasure of his will to bestowe the gift of faith & repentance on some & deny it to others . all the decrees of god we acknowledge to be unchangeable from within , irresistible from without . yet this author applyes these attributes only to gods absolute decrees , intimating that it is otherwise with gods conditionall decrees : which conceit of his savoureth of the same learning and judgment with the rest . besides it is his course hand over head to talke of the distinction of gods decrees , into decrees absolute , and decrees conditionall : whereas the decrees of god as touching the acts of god willing , admit noe such distinction ; the act of gods will being allways absolute and never conditionall , as both piscator theologically hath proved against uorstius and bradwardine most scholastically hath demonstrated ; and by other reasons may be demonstrated and made as cleare as the sunne ; some of which reasons i have formerly mentioned in this discourse : only quoad res volitas as touching the things willed this distinctiō hath place ; as both d r jackson in his booke of providence acknowlegeth of that distinction of voluntas antecedens & voluntas consequens ( which by uossius interpretation is all one with voluntas absoluta & voluntas conditionata ) namely that it is to be understood only quoad res volitas . and in the same sense is voluntas conditionata interpreted , as appears by the practice of uossius * and of this author throughout . now in this sense we doe not acknowledge that gods decrees of salvation and damnation are absolute , but merely conditionall ; so that this author doth but fight with his own shadow in this his argumentation , making as shamefull a mistake as ever don quixot did , when he conceived the barbars bason to be the helmet of mambrino , and fell furiously upon him , in a zeale of martiall glory , to recover spolia opima , so fat and rich spoyles . by the way observe , to alter gods absolute decrees , is no other thing , then to alter that which is once determined by gods absolute will. for after this different manner doth this author expresse one and the same thing in this section . now consider , is not the rising of the sunne the course of heaven , the revolution of the yeare , the whole course of nature , some of these things which are determined by gods absolute will ? with what giddinesse then doth he affirme that to hinder or stay or overturne any of these is more possible then to make alteration in gods decrees ; seeing to make alteration in gods decrees is but to alter things which god hath once determined by his absolute will. but as for salvation and damnation these are not determined by god , like as the rising of the sunne , the course of heaven the revolutions of the yeare , and the whole course of nature . for these are determined by god to come to passe absolutly ; but the salvation or damnation of man are determined by god to come to passe conditionally . . and accordingly mans ends are not determined by an absolute decree , like unto the rising of the sunne . for the rising of the sunne is by god determined to come to passe absolutely , so are not the speciall ends of men , to wit , salvation and damnation ( for these are the ends of men which this author speakes of ) these ( as i said ) are determined to come to passe not absolutely but conditionally : and therefore mens actions hereabouts , are not vaine and fruitlesse : and the reason is because mans salvation is determined to befall him only in case he believe and repent and become studious of good works : in like sort damnation is determined to none of ripe yeares , but in case he gives off all care of faith repentance and good workes . did god determine a man shall be saved whether they be good or evill , like as he determined the sunne should rise whether men sleepe or wake , whether they be idle or well occupied ( for so he makes his sunne to shine and the raine to fall upon the just and unjust ) then indeed mans actions in furthering their salvation were vaine and fruitlesse . but the antecedent is a notorous untruth . for our saviour hath professed in expresse termes that whosoever believeth shall be saved , and whosoever believes not shall be damned . as for the liberty and power of a man to performe faith and repentance , whether this be granted unto all ? is an other question , which this author might have discussed had it pleased him , and taken upon him to maintaine universall grace ; but he declines this throughout , like as others of this sect too , fearing therein some precipice . and herein we are willing to grant that god hath absolutely determined that some shall believe and repent , as he hath determined the sunne rising , not upon any condition in man , but according to the meere pleasure of his will , bestowing the grace of faith on some , and denying it to others . for if god did bestow faith on man upon condition of some precedent work in man , then grace should be given according to mens works ( that is in the phrase of the antients ) according to mens merits , which is direct pelagianisme , and condemned in the synod of palestine above twelve hundred years agoe . but this author carrieth himselfe very preposterously , thus confounding two questions into one : the one , whether salvation be determined by god , to be conferred absolutely on man ? which we deny as much as himselfe doth . the other is , whether faith and repentance be determined by god to be conferred on man conditionally ? which we maintaine ; and wonder not a little that this authors stomack ( working like the raging sea ) chiefly against this , yet dares not come to the debating of this , no nor so much as in plaine termes to speake out his opinion , and professe , that the reason why god bestowes faith on one , and not on another , is because he finds some disposition or work in him , on whom he bestowes faith , which he finds not in another to whom he denies it . yet he goes on most ridiculously in the same tenour , saying . if they be absolutely appoynted to destruction , their hearing , reading , praying , almesgiving , and mourning for their sinnes , cannot possibly procure their salvation : damned they must be . but we still deny that men are absolutely appoynted to destructiō , we willingly grant the elect are absolutely appointed unto grace , namely to have regeneration , faith and repentance to be conferred upon them , and that absolutely , not upon any foregoing condition performed by them , but according to the meere pleasure of god ; but as for salvation , that is appointed to be bestowed upon them , only by way of reward of foregoing faith , repentance , and good workes , observe by the way , how he considers not the contradictious nature of that which he imputes unto us . as first that we deny man to have any liberty or power to choose life and death . and secondly , that we maintain , that their hearing , reading , praying , almesgiving , and mourning for their sinnes , cannot possibly procure their salvation ; which is to imply , that they have power to heare , read , pray , give almes , and mourne for their sinnes , and consequently that they have power to choose life or death . for to choose life or death , is no other then to embrace such courses , as by the ordinance of god , lead to life or death . now such are hearing , reading , praying , giving asmes , and mourning for sinnes ; for these courses are the way to everlasting life . yet as touching the latter , well we may say that reprobates can neither heare , nor read , nor pray , nor give almes as they ought , nor mourne for their sins ; yet surely we are so farre from saying , that these courses cannot possibly procure salvation , that on the contrary rather , we are ready to professe that these courses rightly used , shall infallibly procure salvation ; for there is none more pretious mourning , then to mourne for sinne ; and our saviour hath pronounced them blessed , adding , that they shall be comforted . was it ever heard amongst us , that men should be damned for reading , hearing , praying , and mourning for their sinnes ? yet the word of god teacheth us , that men may houle , yet be farre enough off from mourning for their sinnes , as hos . . . they cryed not unto me when they houled upon their beds : they assembled themselves for corne and wine , & they rebelled against me . and if men be damned notwithstanding such mourning , i should think it is nothing strange . of the same tenour is that which followeth . if they be absolutely ordained to salvation , their neglect of holy duties , their ignorance their love of pleasure , and continuance in a course of ungodlinesse , cannot bring them to damnation ; as if this were our doctrine : whereas to the contrary we maintain , that from election flowes holinesse . eph. . . who hath elected us in christ , that we should be holy . and faith , acts . . as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life . and thes . . . god hath elected you unto salvation , by sanctification of the spirit , and faith of the truth . and indeed our profession is , that gods purpose is to bestow salvation by way of reward of faith , repentance , and good workes : and accordingly there is no other assurance of election , then by faith and holinesse . thes . . , . remembring the work of your faith , the labour of your love , and the patience of your hope , knowing beloved brethren , that ye are elect of god. and therefore saint peter exhorts christians , to make their election and vocation sure , by joyning vertue with their faith , and with vertue knowledge , and with knowledge temperance , and with temperance patience , and with patience godlinesse , and with godlinesse brotherly kindnesse , and with brotherly kindnesse love. pet. . , , . . but it were pitty this author should have liberty denyed him servire scaenae , and to execute his historicall part in conforming our doctrine to the heresy of the predestinatians , ( so called ) as it is recorded by sigebert . and indeed the very doctrine of austin , was charged with the same crimination : for albeit sigebert professeth that this heresy arose ex augustini libris male intellectis : out of austins book not rightly understood ; yet the learned arch-bishop of armach , had made it manifest , that this very crimination was charged upon austins doctrine . histor . gottesc . pag. . and that out of the beginning of the . book hypomnestican or hypognosticon . the words are these , and i pray mark it well , whether it be not punctually the very objection which this author makes in this place : credere nos vel praedicare sugillatis ( quia cum lege dei & prophetis cum evangelio christi ejusque apostolis praedestinationem dicimus ) quod deus quosdam hominum sic praedestinet ad vitam regni caelorum , ut si nolent orare , aut jejunare , aut in omni operé divino vigiles esse , eos omnino perire non posse , nec prorsus sui debere esse sollicitos , quos deus , quia voluit semel jam eligendo praedestinavit ad vitam : quisdam vero sic praedestinavit in gehennae paenam , ut etiam si credere velint , si jejuniis & orationibus omnique se voluntati divinae subjecerint in his deum non delectari , & vitam illis aeternam in toto dari non posse ; sic electione praedestinatos esse ut pereant . judge i pray whether this be not the very objection charged upon the doctrine of austin , which this author chargeth upon our doctrine . and indeed that most learned bishop sheweth , how that albeit , the predestinatian heresy is pretended by sigebert to have risen out of austins bookes not rightly understood , as also by tyro prosper ( auncient to sigebert ) as he is set forth in print ; yet tyro himselfe plainly professeth , that the heresy mentioned orta est ab augustino , rose from augustine himselfe , as appears by the manuscripts of that author , which that learned bishop had searched , one found in bennet colledge in cambridge , and another in the kings library : whereby it is apparent , that this pretended heresy of the predestinatians ( no author thereof being ever known to the world ) was a meere nick-name devised by the remnants of the pelagians , and reproachfully cast upon the doctrine of austin , as now a daies it is upon our doctrine , which is the same with austins . as for the ministers preaching in vaine in some sense , and in some cases ; this is nothing strange to them that have their eyes fixed on gods oracles , and not on the oracles of their own braines . for the prophet esaiah thus complaines , and that as some conceive in the person of christ , then i said , i have laboured in vaine , i have spent my strength for nought , and in vaine , yet surely my judgement is with the lord , and my worke with my god. and jerem. . . how dare ye say , we are wise , and the love of the lord is with us ? loe certainly in vaine made he it , the penne of the scribe is in vaine . and ierem. . . the bellowes are burnt , the lead is consumed of the fire : the founder melteth in vaine : for the wicked are not plucked away . reprobate silver shall man call them , because the lord hath rejected them . and like as the sowing of seed is sometimes in vaine . levit. . so why may not preaching be in vaine , which is a sowing of seed also . yet in respect of gods end , it is not in vaine : for he hath the ends he aimed at ; for even in them that perish , there ariseth a sweet savour unto god cor. . . as well as in them that are saved . and if they stumble at the word being disobedient , saint peter telleth us , that hereunto they were odained pet. . . yea and austin tells us , that even reprobates by the ministry of gods word , are sometimes brought ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quo mitius puniantur . and as for the preachers of the word , their labour is not in vaine in the lord. cor. . last . and esay . . my judgement is with the lord , and my worke with my god. for even christ himselfe was forsaken of many . iohn . yet was that no disparagement to him before god. they desire indeed that all men might be saved that are partakers of their ministry , as they are bound in charity , but with submission to the will of god , so that finally their desires in the issue are terminated only in the elect . they became all things to all men , that they may save some . cor. . and who are they let paul speake . i endure all things for the elect sake . as for the hearers themselves , as many as are elect , they believe by it sooner or later and are brought to repentance . tim. . . and finally to salvation , that thou maist both save thy selfe and them that heare thee , ( saith paul to timothy ) so that to them surely 't is not in vaine ; and as for reprobates they are convicted by it of their unbeliefe , suffrag . britt . on the . & . articles . excuse is taken from them for they cannot plead that they never heard the gospel , whereby mē are admonished to repent act. . . thereby to excuse themselves : yea & sometimes they may be the better for it , in respect of an outward cōformity , only it is in vain in respect that salvation is not obtained by them though the gospel & the ministry thereof be a means tēding thereunto , in as much as it openeth the way of salvation , & discovereth all false waies . but paines for obtaining salvation , and hell , are ill joyned together ; for therefore hell is their portion because they neglect the means of salvation , and take no paines about it at least good paines . for our saviour plainly tells us of some that they shall seek to enter in at the straight gate , and shall not be able luk. . . it seems they took some paines , though they were not able to enter . we are accounted predestinarian heretiques for saying so much ; but i hope he will not reckon our saviour too amongst the number . so esay . . yet they seeke mee daily , and will know my waies , even as a nation that did righteously and had not forsaken the statutes of their god : they aske of me ordinances of justice . they will draw neer unto god , saying . wherefore have we fasted and thou seest it not ? we have punished our selves & thou regardest it not . here is devotion and paines too , in the way thereof , but i think they had never a whit the better interest in heaven for this . doth this doctrine also savour of the predestinarian heresy ? as for that pretended passage out of acts . it is in vain for thee to kick against the pricks , i find no such saying of christ to saul but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an hard thing ; for shall he not wound himselfe that doth so , more then hurt the pricks themselves ? so was paul by those persecuting courses of his , in the high-way to damnation ; yet it is true also , gods church is nothing damnified by the persecutions and martyrdomes of gods saints . for sanguis martyrum semen ecclesiae ; one is cut off , but many rise up in the place of a few . like as a seed of corne falls into the ground and dyes ; but a blade springs out of that one that dyes , and brings forth an eare of many graines . by the way i am wondrous glad to heare the acknowledgement of a precious truth , to breake forth out of the mouth of this author ere he is aware , namely , that the preservation of gods church is absolutely decreed in heaven . for marke i beseech you , wherein the preservation of gods church consists . . one is in preserving them that are called from apostacy . if this be absolutely decreed , then the perseverance of men in the state of grace is absolutely decreed ; and consequently it is absolutely maintained ; and if perseverance in faith be absolutely maintained ; then faith it selfe was absolutely wrought , and absolutely decreed to every one that enjoyeth it . . another is the restraining of tyrants from persecuting the professors of christ : if this be absolutely decreed , then the free actions of men are absolutely decreed by god : for to abstaine from persecuting is undoubtedly a free action of man. . but in case both tyrants are permitted to rage , and many are permitted to fall away ; and all are mortall and must dye ; therefore the next effectuall meanes of preserving the church , is the raising of others in their place to professe the gospell . now this is wrought by the effectuall calling and converting of men unto faith in christ , and consequently the effectuall calling and converting of men is absolutely decreed by god. thus truth hath prevailed over the mouth of errour , to make it testify for gods truth and against errour : magna est veritas , ut praevalebit . here this author hath raised spirits against himselfe improvidently ; let him try how he can lay them , and conjure them downe againe . . i come unto the third . i willingly grant that men are not willing to be exercised about fruitlesse actions ; and as for the actions specified by saint paul ; as they were not fruitlesse to him ; so i make no question but that they are in like manner profitable to all that performe them , as paul did , namely the actions of mortification . we have saint pauls word for it , which is of some force ( if so be he be not reputed among the number of predestinarian heretiques , as well as austin and our divines ) if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh , ye shall live . endeavour goes beyond desire : yet nehemiah commends himselfe to god in this manner . we that desire to feare thy name . and the holy prophet esay . the desire of our hearts is towards thy name , and to the remembrance of thee . and s. paul. we desire to live honestly . and to fight with the temptations of the devill , the allurements of the world , and a mans own corruptions , is undoubtedly a manifest token of a true souldier of christ jesus . and mortification in speciall ; such need not doubt , but that they shall crucify the flesh , with the affections and lusts . for they that walke in the spirit , shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ; their faith shall give them the victory over the world , and god in his good time will tread satan under their feet . discourse . sect . iii. to be exercised in fruitlesse affaires , it is both a folly and a misery . . a folly , for , de necessari is nemo sapiens deliberat , saith the philosopher . and our saviour speaking of things above our power ; cur estis solliciti ? saith he to his disciples , mat. . . luke . , . why take ye thought about such things ? which is as much as if he had said , it is an argument of folly in you , to trouble your selves about such things , as lye not in your liberty . . a misery in the opinions of all men , as the fable of sysiphus implies , who ( as the poets feigne ) is punished for his robberies in hell , with the rolling of a great stone to the top of a sharpe hill , where it cannot rest , but presently comes tumbling downe againe . the morall of that fable is , that it is a torment , and a torment fit for hell ; for a man to be set about any worke that is fruitlesse and vaine . men will rather be exercised in high and hard imployments , that produce proportionable ends ; then pick strawes , play with feathers , or with domitian , spend their time in flapping or killing of flies , or doe any other easy workes , which end in nothing but ayre and emptinesse , except they be fooles or selfe-tormentors . and therefore when balaam once saw that the lord had fully determined to blesse israell , and that all his sorceries could not effect the contrary ; he presently gave over , and set no more enchantments ; and reason teacheth every man to doe the like . if any man were fully possest with a perswasion that this temporall estate were determined in heaven , and that he should be worth just so much , neither more nor lesse ; he would conclude , that his care and paines could not profit him , nor his idlenesse impoverish him : and so would be quickly perswaded to take his ease . and if it were evident , that every common-wealth had a fatall period , beyond which it could not passe , and short of which it could not come , and that all occurrences good or bad , were absolutely preordained by the almighty , then the king would call no parliament , use no privy counsell : for there would be no use of them at all . as once a famous privy-councellor told our late queene elizabeth , men would neither make lawes nor obey them , but would take the councell of the poet. solvite mortales ammos , curisque levate , totque supervacuis animum deplete querelis : fata regunt orbem , certa stant omnia lege . from these three premises laid together , it followes directly , that the doctrine of an absolute decree , which determines mens ends precisely ; is no friend to a godly life . for if events absolutely decreed be unavoydable ; if mens actions about unavoydable ends be unprofitable ; it in unprofitable imployments men will have no hand willingly : men that know and consider this , will have nothing to doe with the practice of godlinesse . for their ends being absolutely pitched and therefore unavoydable ; they will conclude , that their labour in religion will be unprofitable , and so will not labour in it at all . that which hath been said , may be yet farther confirmed by two witnesses . the one of them is by two witnesses . the one of them is our calvin , who in his institutions hath these words : si quis it a plebem compellet ; si non cred it is , ideo fit , quia jam divinitus exitio praedestinati estis ; is non modo ignaviam fovet : sed etiam in dulget malitiae . if any man ( saith he ) should speake thus to people ; if there be any among you that believe not , it is because ye are ordained to destruction ; this man would not only cherish slothfulnesse , but wickednesse also . which is as much to say ( me thinkes ) as this ; if a man should set out the doctrine of absolute reprobation in its colours , and explaine it to a people in a cleare and lively fashion , he would hereby open a doore to liberty and prophanenesse . the other witnesse is a man of another stampe , the miserable landgrave of turing , of whom it is recorded by heisterbachius , that being admonished by his friends , of his vitious and dangerous conversation and condition , he made them this answer : si praedestinatus sum nulla peccata poterunt mihi regnum coelorum auferre : si praescitus nulla bona mihi illud valebunt conferre . if i be elected no sinnes can bereave me of heaven ; if i be a reprobate , no good deeds can help me to heaven . i conclude therefore that by this opinion ( which is taught for one of gods principall truths ; ) religion is , or may be made a very great looser , which is my fourth generall reason against it . twisse . consideration . de necessari is nemo sapiens deliberat ; this is true of things necessary by course of nature , not of things necessary meerely upon supposition of gods decree . for such things are as often contingent as necessary ; for as he decreeth that some things shall come to passe necessarily , so he decreeth that other things shall be brought to passe contingently : as the buying of the prophets bones by josiah , cyrus his dimission of the jews out of babylon to goe to their own country : the contumelious usages of christ by herod and pontius pilate , together with the gentiles and people of israel , were necessary in respect of gods decree ; it being expressely testified by the apostles with one mouth , that all these were gathered together against the holy sonne of god , to doe what gods hand , and gods counsell predetermined to be done . act. . . yet who is so impudent as to deny , that all these did freely , whatsoever they did against christ . in like sort you know what was the course of proceedings against protestants in queene maries daies , when they were convicted by ecclesiastiques of such opinions , which they accounted hereticall , and which were made capitall by law of the land : then they were delivered over unto the secular power , to be put to death . so that herein , to wit , first in making such bloudy lawes . secondly , in executing them for the establishment of popish religion : the kings gave their power to the beast , that is , implyed their regall power and authority to the countenancing of romish religion : this undoubtedly was a contingent thing . yet was this determined by god ( as the scripture testifies revel . . . ) god hath put in their hearts ( that is in the hearts of the tenne kings ) to fulfill his decree , and to be of one consent , and to give their kingdome unto the beast , untill the word of god be fulfilled . againe , suppose god hath determined my salvation ; yet if he hath determined to save me no other way then is revealed in his word , namely , by growing in grace , and in the knowledge of our lord jesus christ : if he hath made known unto us that , without holinesse no man shall see god. that a man in good time shall reape , provided that he faint not , nor be weary of well doing . who seeth not that a necessity of godly life is laid upon all that will be saved . now god hath revealed this latter expressely unto us in his word , but as for the salvation of particular persons ; we have no such revelation at all set downe unto us in gods word , but in generall thus . whosoever believeth shall be saved , whosoever believeth not shall be damned . be thou faithfull unto the death , and thou shalt receive a crowne of life . whosoever continueth unto the end shall be saved . and good workes ( as bernard saith ) are via regni , though not causa regnandi . therefore if any man desire to come to the kingdome of heaven , he must be carefull to walke in the way that leadeth thither . the word saith not to any man in particular . thou shalt be saved , but , if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the lord jesus , and shalt believe in thine heart , that god hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . such was not the promise made to paul concerning the saving of them , who were in the ship with him , but it proceeded in an ansolute forme . acts . , . there stood by me this night the angell of god whose i am , and whom i serve , saying . feare not paul , for thou must be brought before caesar : and loe god hath given unto thee freely , all that saile with thee . here is a manifest signification of gods decree and determination to save all that were in the ship : yet did this make paul or the rest negligent in using such meanes whereby they might save themselves ? it is apparent that it did not : for the mariners they thought to fly out of the ship ; and to that purpose had let downe the boat into the sea , under colour as though they would cast anchor out of the foreship , meaning to provide for themselves , and leaving others to shift for themselves . but paul perceiving this , and the dangerous condition of it unto the rest , as that which would bereave them of the ordinary meanes of preservation , he said to the centurion and the souldiers , except these abide in the ship , ye cannot be safe . did not paul feare the failing af his own credit and reputation ? who having before assured them , and that by the message of an angell of their safe coming to land ; now on the other side tells them , that unlesse the marriners abide in the ship , they could not be safe ? nothing lesse ; neither did the captaine and souldiers fly in his face , as an impostor , and one that had abused them ; as by this authors dictates they might , especially if he had had the catechising of them ; but rather of themselves conceiving it an unreasonable thing so to depend upon the promise of man or angell , as not to use the best meanes that lay in their power : forth with the souldiers cut off the ropes of the boat , and let it fall away , choosing rather to loose their boat ( which yet was of good use too ) then their marriners . this was not all , but paul useth spirituall meanes , and by exhortation comforteth them , that so they might take heart , and the better set themselves to the use of the best meanes , not weakely but couragiously for their preservation . this is the fourteenth day that y e have tarried , and continued fasting receiving nothing . wherefore i exhort you to take meat , for this is for your safeguard , for there shall not an hayre fall from the head of any of you . and when he had thus spoken he tooke bread , and gave thankes to god in presence of them all , and brake it , and began to eate . then were they all of good courage and they also tooke meat . well at length the ship brake , and the centurion commanded , that they that could swim should cast themselves first into the sea , and goe out to land ; and the others some on boards , and some on certaine pieces of the ship. here to the end we see no meanes neglected ; and so it came to passe ( to wit by use of such meanes ) that they all escaped to land. yet was the promise of their salvation made to paul in an absolute forme , so is not the promise of salvation made to us . now i leave it to the indifferent to judge of the wisdome of this authors discourse . yet non deliberation is no suffitient evidence of the needlesse condition of meanes . for aristotle sayth that ars non deliberat , not because he useth no meanes to bring about his ends , but because the artificer which is his crafts-master , is not to seeke of the meanes . for the same reason deliberation is not incident unto god , his wisdome is nothing the lesse in discerning congruous meanes to bring about his intended ends . as for that of our saviour cur estis solliciti de vestitu ? surely t is not of any thing above our power in respect of use of meanes ; indeed to ad one cubit to our stature is not in our power , neither doe i know any that take thought thereof , but it is no more in mans power to blesse his owne cares and labours for the procuring of himselfe meat , drinke , rayment , then it is in his power to adde a cubit or two unto his stature . therefore it becomes us not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is , to distract our selves with carking cares , as touching the end of our affaires , but he forbids us not to be carefull in the use of means . for to this purpose god would not have adam to be idle in paradise , he must dresse the garden , though the thriving of ought thereby was not so much by his care as by gods providence . and therefore he hath given us six dayes to worke and commands us to doe all our works therein ; but as for the issue of our labours , leave that to god & his blessing ; and whether our labours are successefull or not successefull , not to trouble our selves there abouts . it was spoken to the singular cōmendation of d r raynolds by him that preached his funerall sermon , that he was most carfull of the means , most carelesse of the end . thus i have endevored to distinguish those things which this authours very judiciously confounds . and as it was no folly for paul to doe as he did that all good meanes might be used for their preservation ; so much lesse was misery , nay they had bene in amiserable case , had they neglected any due meanes to preserve themselves : for s t paul ( notwithhanding the message delivered unto him by an angell , and his promise therupon made unto the centution ) spared not to professe that unlesse the mariners staid in the ship they could not be saved : so that this authours fable of sysiphus , is no better accommodated then the rest , save that herein he may refresh his reader , & thank him for his curtesie , for representing unto him as in a glasse the nature of his proceedings . for in this his discourse he doth very accuratly play the part of sysiphus for he takes great paines inkindeling a fire , but alasse he cannot warme himselfe thereby ; he must blow his nails still ; there is no remedy . and truly i see noe reason to the contrary , but that a man as profitably bestowes his paines in picking strawes , or playing with feathers , as this authour doth in such maner of discourses . domitian killed flyes , but this author doth not so much as flap a flye ; only i confesse he doth very energetically discover the nakednesse of his owne discourse . and such be the issue of those that affect a name by becomming arminian proselits ; and shew as litle grace in their writings , as it becomes them whose growth in perfection ( by their owne account ) is to appose the grace of god pelagian like , whom austin was bould to call the enemyes of gods graee ; indeed it was high tyme for balaam to leave his sorceries when he saw the lord was determined to blesse israel . for his sorceries were no meanes to blesse them , but to curse them rather . in like sort , if i am perswaded that god hath appoynted me unto salvation , it will be high tyme for me to leave off all care of faith repentance and good workes , when this author shall make it appeare , that these studies are no more conducent ( in gods ordination ) unto salvation , then balaams sorceries were to the blessing of israel , but rather the high-way unto damnation , as his sorceries were to the cursing of the lords people . i make no doubt ( what this authors creed is to the contrary i care not ) but that every mans temporall estate is determined in heaven , as well as pauls escaping safe out of shipwrack , and all that were in the same ship , to the number of two hundred threscore and sixteen soules , yet both paul and all the rest did not take their ease , but were vigilant to take all opportunity , to use the best meanes for their safe arrivall at the land ; some by swimming , some by sitting on bords , some on one piece of the ship some on another , and so ( and not but so ) they came all safe to land . and as our divines in the synod of dort observe , albeit the lord had promised ezechiah , he should recover , and fifteen years more should be added to his life , yet he refused not the counsaile of the prophet esay , in laying a plaster of figges unto his sore . we know what was the forme of ionahs preaching to the ninivites ion. . . yet forty daies and niniveh shall be destroyed . here we have an absolute forme of sentence denounced against them . and the people of niniveh believed god , yet did they not give over all courses for the pacifying of the wrath of god , but proclaimed a fast , and put on sack-cloath , from the greatest of them to the least of them ; the king himselfe arising from his throne , and laying his robe from him , and covering himselfe with sack-cloath , and sitting in ashes , and commanding others to doe the like . and mark their reason . who can tell if god will turne and repent , and turne from his fierce wrath that we perish not . in like sort damnation being determined to none , but to such as are finally impenitent : and this being not doubtfully or obscurely , but clearely revealed unto us in gods word , shall our endeavours to turne unto god by godly sorow and repentance , be accounted vaine and fruitlesse in the judgement of any sober man ? and let this author look unto it , that these ninivites doe not one day rise in judgement against him ; and not the ninivites only , but the stoicks also , who as they acknowledged some things fatalia , so they confessed there were some things confatalia ; and this very argument here used they commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an idle argumentation ; because it tended to the humouring of men in their idle courses : and thus is it censured above yeares agoe by cicero in his booke de fato . it is the blessing of god that makes men fat , and if god hath determined this , and man knows it , will he therefore sit still and starve himselfe ? it is the blessing of god that makes men rich . god promised as much to the israelites , in case they kept his commandements , which commandements did not instruct them in good husbandry ; but where they instigated hereby to neglect any usuall meanes of making themselves rich ? nothing lesse , nay god was jealous least in presumption of their owne wise and thriftie courses they should give the glory of it to themselves and not to god. deut. . . beware least thou say in thy heart , my power and the strength of mine owne hand hath prepared me this abundance . but remember the lord thy god : for it is he which giveth thee power to get substance . if it be sayd that god hath not determined to make any man fat , but by feeding ; nor any man rich but by labouring in some vocation , or other , i answer , that neither hath god determined to bring any man to salvation , but by sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth thess . . . by feeding on gods word , which is the word of grace able to save our soules . iam. . and to build further and to give us an inheritance among them that are sanctified through faith in him . in like sort if god hath appoynted every commonwealth a fatall period , yet if he hath appointed to bring them to flourishing estate by certaine meanes , or to desolation no otherwise then by neglecting the meanes of prosperitie , as it is aparent he doth not , would any wise man conclude hence , that it were bootlesse either to call parliaments or to make use of privy councelors ? but this author perhaps will reply , that this is not absolutely to ordaine a period to a state , for as much as the period is brought to passe by meanes . be it so ; now let the indifferernt consider whether we doe maintaine , that the periods of men , to wit salvation on the one side and damnation on the other , are by god brought to passe without meanes . doe we maintaine that god damnes or decreeth to damne any man but for finall perseverance in sinne ? doe we maintaine that god brings any man to salvation ( if he come to the use of reason ) but by faith repentance and good-workes ? but the truth is this authors ignorance in part , and in part a dexterity that this sect hath to confound things that differ , is his best armour of proofe , to hold up his confidence in spending his powder liberally , but without shot . for salvation is not bestowed , or damnation inflicted absolutely , but that meerely upon the foregoing of faith and repentance ; this meerely upon finall perseverance in sinne . only regeneration together with the grace of faith and repentance , is bestowed absolutely by god upon whom he will , and denyed to whom he will , according to that of paul , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . and it is very strange that this being the criticall poynt , and the most momentous poynt of controversy , and such , the decision whereof carryeth with it the decision of all the rest , this author should unshamefacedly decline it . but some there be that hate the light because their workes are evill ; but doth it become him to taxe others for declining the triall , when none sheweth more vile carriage this way then himselfe ? what that privy-councellor was , i know not , nor have i any evidence of the truth of the story , but as it lyeth dictated at pleasure ; i have shewed how it nothing disadvantageth our cause , though the author of that speech were not only a privy-councellor but a great divine too . yet amongst many good , there might be some bad in queen elizabeths dayes . if that were true which is reported to have been mentioned by d r lively in a lecture of his in cambridge , namely that a certaine booke was found under a privy-councellors pillow , whose inscription was this de tribus mundi impostoribus , mose , christo , mahumite . as for fate stoicall ( to give the divell his right ) i no where find it maintained by any of them so as to prejudice mens wills , but by many great ones i find this expresly denyed and hereof i have already spoken more at large . still he keepes his course in impugning an absolute decree determining mens ends precisely : what secret misteries he conceales in the word , precisely . i know not ; but it is aparent , we maintaine no such determining the salvation of any man , so as to exclude a godly life . we both know and teach that without holinesse ( as much as to say without a godly life ) no man shall see god. but we further say , that this is not wholy the decree of predestination , though this author with his remonstrants would faine rest here : but we farther say , that a godly life is the gift of gods grace , and that god bestowes this gift on whom he will ; but this author hath no great lust to oppose us here . the more equivocall a phraise is , the fitter it is to serve his turne , that lyes upon advantages , to promote error and obscure truth . and therefore keepes himselfe to the absolute decree and precise determinations ; either not understanding or not considering , that an absolute decree may be takendivers waies , either quoad actum volentis as touching the act of god willing , or quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed , the decree properly signifies the act of god willing ; but this author in consideratly takes it quoad res volitas as touching the things willed all along , as appeares by his oppossing it to decree or will conditionall ; and will conditionall with him is such , as when the thing willed is not effected because the condition is not performed . they are his owne words in the last section save one of his former sorts of reasons , the very last words . as for example , the will of saving men is not accomplished , because men doe not believe . then as touching the things willed gods decrees being considered , here also arise different considerations ; for as much as the things willed are different grace and glory ; as for glory and salvation we doe not say that god hath decreed to confer that absolutly , but only conditionally ; yet thereupon he stiks throughout . supposing his adversaries to maintaine an absolute decree concerning the conferring of salvation abolutely , which is most untrue , wherein he fights without any adversary ; yet there he dischargeth himselfe very strenuously , and layes about him like a mad man. but as for grace , to wit , the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance ; this we readily professe that god doth bestow it absolutly , to wit , on whom he will , according to the meere pleasure of his will. all this , it is the glory of this author in his discourse most juditiously to confound ; which made him the more to abound in matter , that he might seem to say some thing , when indeed it is nothing , supple to the purpose . and to meet with him in every particular of his conclusion ; the events ( to wit of salvation or damnation ) are not at all decreed by god to come to passe absolutely , but meerely conditionally , and consequently not unavoydably , but avoydably rather ; like as things that come to passe contingently doe come to passe with a possibility not to come to passe , and accordingly god decreed they should came to passe contingently ; and consequently mens actions hereabouts are not unprofitable , nay they are both necessary for obtayning the ends here intimated , & such as never faile of obtayning them . as for example . sanctification of the spirit , and faith of the truth , never faile of procuring salvation ; for as much as god ordained by these meanes to bring men unto salvation thess . . . and by no meanes else . and therefore most absurd it is to conceive , that the practise of godlinesse proves unprofitable , and from such wild promises the unprofitable nature of the prctise of godlinesse , can prove no better then a wild conclusion . i come to his two witnesses ; the first is calv. inst . l. . c. . sect . . si quis ita plebem compellet ; si non creditis , ideo fit , quia jam divinitus exitio destinati estis , is non modo ignaviam fovet , sed indulget malitiae . this ( saith this author ) is as much to say as this ; if a man should set downe the doctrine of reprobation in its colours , and explaine it to people in a cleare and lively fashion , he would hereby open a doore to liberty and prophanenesse . now this calvin delivereth as out of austin ; as appeareth both by his entrance hereunto , and by his shutting up of it ; his entrance into it is this . et tamen ut singulare aedificationis studium sancto viro fuit , ( that is austin ) sic docendi veri rationem temperat ut prudenter caveatur , quoad licet , offensio . nam iquae vere dicuntur congruenter simul posse dici admonet ; the man he speakes of still is austin , as is apparent to him that shall consider the coherence of this section with the former . then he sets downe the inconvenient manner of preaching this truth , as austin doth , though not in austins words but in his owne . si quis ita plebem compellet ; si non creditis , ideo fit , quia jam divinitus exitio destinati estis . &c. and shutting the whole up he expressely names austin , misliking such manner of preaching thus ; tales itaque augustinus non immerito tanquam vel insulsos doctores , vel sinistros & ominosos prophetas ab ecclesia jubet facessere . what is the mystery then of this , that calvin is here brought in for a witnesse , in making a relation of austins discourse , and austin himselfe whose judgement calvin doth but relate is pretermitted , especially considering that austins testimony , where it serves his turne , would give farre more credit to his cause then calvins : you will give me leave to guesse at the mistery , which i take to be this ; calvin is well known to be opposite unto him in the doctrine of reprobation ; but calvin acknowledging that this doctrine might be delivered in a harsh manner , which yet nothing moved him from entertaining it : this harsh manner of propounding it , is enough to serve this authors turne , to defame it both in his own conceit , and in the conceit of others , such as himselfe . for as for calvins opinion to the contrary , that is of no consideration with him , yea though luther also joyne with him in this . hee is especially in these daies , and with some persons so contemptible , as never was honest man more . but to bring in austin acknowledging this doctrine , and taking notice of some harsh manners in propounding it , and yet notwithstanding embracing it in despight of the harshnesse thereof , and shewing withall , how this harsh manner of propounding the same truth may be tempered ; his authority this author well knew , and considered would be of greater authority to sway for it , then some harshnesse in the propounder , or this authors me thinks , would sway against it : and therefore he thought fit to spare the bringing in of austin to testify for him , and contents himselfe to bring calvin only upon the stage , though he doth but relate in effect the discourse of austin ; thus as formerly i said , this treatise savours more of the fox then of the lyon. but let us bring him unto austin de bono perseverantioe . cap. . where the objection made by them of marseiles against austins doctrine of predestination is proposed thus . sed aiunt ut scribitis neminem posse correptionis stimulis excitari , si dicatur in conventu ecclesiae audientibus multis . ita se habet de praedestinatione definita sententia voluntatis dei , ut alii ex vobis de infidelitate , accepta obediendi voluntate veneritis ad fidem , vel accepta maneatis in fide : caeteri verò qui in peccatorum delectatione remoramini , ideo nondum surrexistis , quia nec dum vos adjutorium gratiae miserantis erexit . veruntamen si qui estis nondum vocati , quos gratia sua praedestinaverit elegendos , accipietis eandem gratiam , qua velitis & sitis electi : et si qui obeditis si praedestinati estis rejiciendi , subtrahentur obediendi vires , ut obedire cessitis . but they say ( as you write ) that no man can be excited by the good of reprehension , if in the congregation before many , the preacher shall thus discourse . such is the sentence of gods will determined as touching predestination , that some of you receiving the will of obedience , shall come from infidelity unto faith , or receiving the gift of perseverance shall continue therein . but if there be any among you who are not called , whom god hath through his grace predestinated to be elected , they shall receive the same grace , whereby to will to be , & to become elect . and if there be any of you , who obey the gospell , that are predestinated to be rejected , the strength of obeying shall be taken from you , that you may cease to obey . here is the objection against it , austins doctrine of predestination , and reprobation at full ; his answer to it followeth at full ; but how ? not in denying ought that hereby is implyed concerning his doctrine of predestination , but to the contrary ; first shewing that this harsh proposition of things , must not deterre us from the embracing of it ; secondly , shewing how the same truth may be delivered in a more temperate manner . ita cum dicuntur ( saith he ) ita nos a confitenda dei gratia , i. e. quae non secundum merita nostra datur , & a confitenda secundum eam praedestinatione sanctorum ; that is , these things thus delivered , must not deterre us from confessing gods grace , which is not given according unto workes , and from confessing the predestination of saints , according thereunto . where observe i beseech you how farre he joynes together the doctrine of gods free grace , with his doctrine of predestination according to his tenet , which here was opposed by the same argument , wherewith the author in this place oppugneth ours . manifestly giving to understand , that his doctrine of predestination could not be impugned as there it is , but withall they that impugne it , must deny the freenesse of gods grace , & maintain that it is given according unto works or merits . so that as he answers them , so we may take liberty to answer this author , and say that this argument of his must not deterre us from confessing predestination according to gods free grace ; least so we be driven to maintaine that grace is given according unto works . and the reason is manifest ; for if it be not of the meere pleasure of god , that he bestowes faith on one , & denyes it unto another , then the reason hereof must be because god findes some better disposition in one then in another , and therefore he gives him , that is better disposed , the grace of faith which he denyes unto another . now this both in austins judgement & in cleare reason appears to be the maintaining , that grace is given according unto workes , which is condemned in the synod of palestine above years agoe . yet austin rests not here , but shewes how the same objection may have place , as well for the overthrowing of prescience divine , as for the overthrowing of predestination divine . we ( saith he ) must no more be deterred by this objection from confessing , the freenesse of gods grace , and predestination divine suitable thereunto , then we are hereby deterred from acknowledging gods fore-knowledge , and shewes how the same objection may be accommodated against gods fore-knowledge , thus . sive nunc recte vivatis sive non recte ; tales vos eritis postea quales vos deus futuros esse praescivit , vel boni si bonos vel mali si malos . that is , whether at this time you live well or not well , such you shall be as god foreseeth you will be ; either good if he foreseeth it will come to passe , or evill if he foreseeth you will be evill . now ( saith he ) if upon the hearing of this , some are converted unto slothfulnesse ( this is the very objection proposed by calvin for the matter of it , but the forme is different . for calvin saith the preacher , doth cherish slothfulnesse , &c. austin signifieth only , that by such kind of preaching , men take occasion of slothfulnesse , and therefore it is fit that calvin should in that sense only be interpreted , seeing he only relates in effect that which he findes in austin , ) suppose ( saith austin going on ) that hereupon they runne after their lust , shall we therefore thinke , that to be false , which was delivered as concerning gods fore-knowledge ? then he tells a history of his own experience , namely how one in the same monastery whereof he was , abused in this manner the doctrine of fore-knowledge . for when his brethren reproved him he would stubbornly answer , whatsoever i am now , surely i shall goe out of the world , such as god foreseeth i will be . wherein saith austin , he speakes truth , but he was so farre from profiting by it unto good , that at length he utterly forsooke our society , returning as a dog to his vomit ; and yet what he will be , saith he , the lord knoweth . now who doubts but that our doctrine of justification by faith , and not by workes , may be an occasion to some , to abuse the grace of god unto wantonnesse ; such there were even in the apostles daies : but what ? shall we therefore renounce that doctrine ? i am not yet come to the tempering of the manner of proposing this doctrine , i have more to say before i come to that . what difference is there in harshnesse between these doctrines , if ye doe not believe , therefore ye doe not believe , because god hath ordained you to destruction , and this , if ye doe not believe , therefore ye doe not believe because god hath not regenerated you : let any man shew how a doore is open to slothfulnesse , more by the one , then by the other ; especially considering the ground of all , is mans inability to believe , without this grace of god effectually preventing and working him unto faith . now this doctine is plainly taught , and that particularly of certain persons , to their faces : ioh . . he that is of god heareth gods word , ye therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god. the phrase , to be of god , i interpret here of regeneration , but both austin of old , and our divines of late , doe interpret of election ; and so it is precisely the same with the preaching of reprobation in his true colours , as this author interprets it , and passeth this censure upon it , as opening a doore to liberty and profanenesse ; which may i confesse well be occasionally to carnall men , or to men possest with prejudicate opinions , yet here it appears plainly , to be in effect the same with that which our saviour himselfe preached . but take this withall ; as it may be an occasion of slothfulnesse , so it may be a meanes to humble men , and beat them out of the presumptuous conceit of their own sufficiency to heare gods word , to believe , to repent , and the like ; and thereby to prepare them to look up unto god , and to waite for him in his ordinances , if so be as the angell came downe to move the waters in the poole of bethesda , to make them medicinable ; so gods spirit may come downe and make his word powerfull to the regenerating of them , to the working of faith , and repentance in them . and i appeale to every sober mans judgement , whether to this end tended not the very like doctrine and admonition proposed by moses to the children of israel in the wildernesse . deut. . , , . ye have seen all that the lord did before your eyes in the land of egypt unto pharaoh and all his servants , and unto all his land. the great temptations which thine eyes have seene those great miracles and wonders . yet the lord hath not given you a heart to perceive , and eyes to see , and eares to heare unto this day . for is it not moses his purpose to set before their eyes how little they have profited in obedience and thankfulnesse unto god , and amendment of life , by all those great workes of his , in the way of mercy towards them , and in the way of judgement towards the egyptians ? and what was the cause of all this , but the hardnesse of their hearts , and the blindnesse of their eyes ? and to what end doth he tell them , that god alone can take away this hardnesse of heart , and blindnesse of mind , which hitherto he had not done ? might he not seem to justify them , in walking after the hardnesse of their hearts by this , and harden them therein by this doctrine of his ? like as this author casts the like aspersion in part upon the like doctrine of ours ? yet moses passeth not for this , so he might set them in a right course , to be made partakers of gods grace , and that by the ministry of the law , to humble and prepare them for the grace of god , which is the evangelicall use of the law. and it is remarkable that in the first verse of this chapter , these words are said to be the words of the covenant , which the lord commanded moses to make with the children of israel in the land of moab , beside the covenant which he made with them in horeb. wherefore seeing the covenant made in horeb , was the covenant of the law , it followeth that this covenant is the covenant of grace , and these words are the words of the covenant of grace , which is plainly expressed in the next chapter v. . and the lord thy god , will circumcise thine heart , and the heart of thy seed , that thou maiest love the lord thy god with all thy heart , and with all thy soule , that thou maiest live . and what is the usuall preparation hereunto but to humble men by convicting them of sinne , and of their utter inability to help themselves , and that nothing but gods grace is able to give them an heart to perceive , and eyes to see , and eares to heare . but yet because we doe not speake in the same measure of the spirit , and of power , as moses and our saviour did , therefore we labour to decline all harshnesse as much as lyeth in our power , where we see occasion is like to be taken of offence . therefore first as touching this discourse of calvins . if you believe not , therefore it is , because you are already destinated unto damnation . i say this is untrue more waies then one . first if he conceives destination unto damnation , goes before gods decree to deny faith : this i utterly deny , and have already proved , that in no moment , of reason doth the decree of damnation precede the decree of denying grace . therefore gods decree to deny them grace , is rather the cause why they believe not then the decree of damnation . secondly whether we take it of the one or of the other , or of both , yet the proposition is utterly untrue . for it doth not follow , that because a man doth not as yet believe , therefore god hath decreed to deny him faith ; and because he hath so decreed , therefore he denies him faith . for he that believes not to day , may believe to morrow . saul was sometimes a persecutor of gods church ; but was it at that time lawfull to conclude , that because he did not then believe therefore he was destinated unto damnation : so that the reason indeed is , either because god hath not decreed at all to give them faith , or because the time which god hath ordained for their conversion is not yet come . this is so cleare that calvin himselfe were he alive , would not gainsay upon consideration . neither doth he justify this discourse , but only saith , we must be more wise , then so to discourse to our auditors . but this author in saying , this is to set downe our doctrine of reprobation in its colours , delivers that which is shamefully untrue , and nothing sutable with our doctrine . more necre to the matter we should say rather , that like as therefore a man heareth gods word because he is of god ( that is as i interpret it , because he is regenerated of god ) so therefore men heare them not , because they are not of god , that is not yet regenerated ; but yet neverthelesse they may be in good time . yet here also there is some defect for want of cleare explication of this truth ; for will you conclude hence , that non-regeneration is the cause of infidelity ( as some doe in effect ) ? why but this is either notoriously false , or if true it is true in such a sense , as whereby god is no more the cause thereof , then a physitian is the cause of a disease , because he will not cure it . for infidelity is a naturall fruit of mans hereditary corruption , and god alone can cure it , but if he will not , god is not to be said to be the cause of any disobedience issuing therefrom , otherwise then per modum non removentis , by way of not removing the cause of it ; or per modum non dantis quod prohiberet , by way of not curing the cause , that is , by not giving faith . now what harshnesse there is in this , to as many as doe not concurre with the pelagians , so as in plain termes to professe , that grace is given according to mens works ; and the objection framed against austin , and grounded upon that doctrine which he acknowledged ranne thus . caeteri qui in peccatorum delectatione remoramini ideo nondum surrexistis , quia nec dum vos adjutorium gratiae miserantis erexit . therefore you are not risen out of that delight you took in sinne , because the succour of gods grace hath not raised you , not as calvin expresseth it . therefore you believe not , because ye are ordained to destruction . and this very doctrine , as formerly i said , our saviour spares not to apply to some particular persons , and preach it to their faces ; like as moses preacheth the very same doctrine to the children of israel , deut. . , , . yet austin to prevent harshnesse doth not like this manner of proposing it so well , seeing it may be and it is fit it should be delivered coveniently thus . si qui autem ad huc in peccatorum damnabilium delectatione remoramini apprehenditis saluberrimam disciplinam . quod tamen cum feceritis , nolite extolli quasi de operibus vestris , aut gloriari , quasi non acceperitis . if any of you doe yet continue in the delightfull course of damnable sinnes take hold of wholesome discipline , which when you have done , be not proud thereof as of your own work , or glory as if you had not received this grace of god. now what advantagious service this first witnesse hath done him , i am well content the indifferent may judge . i come to his second witnesse , that is of the land-grave of turing , reported by hesterbachius ; as i remember it is about the twelfth century of yeares since our saviours incarnation . this man being admonished by his friends of his dangerous and vitious courses , made this answer . si praedestinatus sum nulla peccata poterunt mihi regnum caelorum auferre ; si praescitus , nulla bona mihi illud valebunt conferre . it is not the first time i have met with this story ; not in vossius only , but in an arminian manuscript ; it seems they make some account of it ; yet i see no cause they should make any such account thereof . it is the common voyce of prophane persons corrupting the doctrine of predestination to serve their own turnes . my selfe remember an instance of it in my minority , when i was little more then a child ; and i remember both the person whom , and the place where it was delivered , and it was accounted as a signe of a prophane heart ; yet this vossius makes use of , as an instance forsooth of a predestination heretique . and i wonder why they doe not devise as well a praescientiarian heresy ; and that by as good an instance as this , of one of austins monkes , who being reproved by his brethren , made the like answer as touching gods praescience , but yet with more sobriety , saying , whatsoever i am now , i shall be such as god foreseeth i will be . yet herein as austin professeth , he spake nothing but truth ; but the saying of the landgrave implyes a notorious untruth , namely , that if he were predestinated he should be saved , though he continued in his sinfull courses ; now this i say is a grosse untruth ; for predestination is the preparation of grace ( as austin desineth it ) and consequently such as are predestinated shall be taken off from their sinfull courses in good time , and by grace be brought unto salvation . in like sort he supposeth a reprobate may be truly righteous ; whereas austin professeth of such , as are not predestinate that god brings none of them to wholsome and spirituall repentance , whereby man is reconciled unto god in christ , what patience soever he affords them . contr. jul. pelag. l. . c. . nay this kind of argumentation , drawn from destiny stoicall , wherewith our adversaries doe usually reproach our doctrine of predestination , like as the pelagians did in the same manner reproach saint austins doctrine concerning predestination . i say this argument was in course , and profligated in the daies of cicero , and censured as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an idle argumentation ( as before i mentioned ) and it is to be seen in cicero his book de fato ; and thereupon they distinguished of some things which they called , fatalia , as victory , and some things which they called , confatalia , as all necessary meanes requisite to the getting of the victory . and origen though he be accounted a favourer of our adversaries doctrine in his writings , yet he shewes the vanitie of this argument applyed to fate , wherby undoubtedly he meanes providence divine . for he proposeth such a kind of objection , as if a sicke man should dispute himself from taking physick after this maner . either by destiny is it appointed i shall recover or no ; if my destiny be to recover i shall recover though i use no physicke , if my destiny be not to recover , all the physitians in the world shal doe me no good . and the vanity of this is represented by the like argument in another manner thus : if it be thy desteny to beget children , whether thou usest the company of woemen or no , thou shalt beget children : and concludes thus ; ut enim hic si fieri non potest ut quis procreat , nisi cum muliere concubuerit , sic si valetudinis recuperatio medicinae via efficitur necessariò adhibetur medicus . the greeke of origen is set downe at large by turnebus in his disputation upon cicero his book de fato , against ramus . now judge you i pray , what colour of detriment to religion , hath he produced from our doctrine of absolute reprobation , and whether his discourse herein is any better then the imagination of a vaine thing . discourse . sect . iv. but there are two things chiefly , which are said for the vindicating of this opinion from this crimination . . first , that many of them which believe and defend this opinion , are godly and holy men , and therefore it doth not of it selfe open a way to liberty ; but through the wickednesse of men , who pervert the sweetest , and the surest truths revealed in gods word , to their own damnation . resp . it cannot ( i confesse ) be denyed , that many of this opinion are godly men , but it is no thankes to their opinion , that they are so ; ( the true and naturall genius of which is to breed sloth , to drowne men in carnall security , and to countenance carnall liberty . ) but to some thing else , either to gods providence , ( who will not suffer this doctrine for his own glory and the good of men , to have any great stroake in their lives ; ) or to mens incogitancy , who think not of reducing it ad praxim , or drawing conclusions out of it , but rest in the naked speculation of it , as they doe of many others ; or lastly to some good practicall conclusions , which they meet with in the word of god , and apply to their lives ( as they doe not the former deductions ) such as these are for example ; be ye holy as i an holy . without holinesse no man shall see god. if ye consent and obey , ye shall eat the good things of the land . godlinesse hath the promise of this life and of the life to come , and such like . and hence we may learne to measure this opinion , not by some few of the men that hold it , but by the sequels , which the logick even of simple men , if they should apply their braines to ponder and consider it , would fetch out of it . no man that hath thoroughly suckt it in , and understood the force of it , but will either relinquish it , or live according to the naturall importment of it , that is , licentiously . . secondly , it is said , that albeit this doctrine doth teach , that men are absolutely elected , or absolutely rejected ; yet it tells no man who in particular is elected , who rejected , ( that must appeare by themselves and their lives ) and so it doth not stifle holy endeavours in any , but rather encourage them in every man , because it makes them to be signes , whereby men must and may get the knowledge of their election . resp . for answer to this ( in my judgement or the present ) the ignorance of a mans particular case doth not alter the case a jot . for he that believes in generall , that many and they the greatest company without comparison , are inevitably ordained to destruction , and a few others unto salvation ; is able out of these two generall propositions , to make these particular conclusions , and to reason thus with himselfe ; either i am absolutely chosen to grace and glory , or absolutely cast off from both , if i be chosen , i must of necessity believe and be saved ; if i be cast off i must as necessarily not believe and be damned , therefore what need i take thought either way about meanes or end ? my end is pitched in heaven , and the meanes too ; my finall perseverance in faith and my salvation ; or my continuance in unbeliefe and my damnation . if i lye under this necessity of believing , and being saved , or of dying in unbeliefe , and being damned , in vaine doe i trouble my selfe about meanes or end , i have my supersedeas , i may take mine ease , and so i will , it is enough for me to sit downe and waite what god will doe unto me . and in this manner ( it is to be feared ) doe too many reason in their hearts , and by this very ground ( though they will not perhaps acknowledge it ) encourage themselves to prophanenesse . though men cannot hide their wickednesse , yet they will hide their grounds which flesh them in it , either through modesty , or to avoyde some farther ignominy . the foole hath said in his heart there is no god : psal . . suetonius de vita tiberii c. . p. . saies of tiberius that he was circa deos & religiones negligentior , quippe addictus mathematicae , persuasionibus plenus omnia fato agi . twisse . consideration . i have already made answer to his objections after my maner ; it remaines i consider what he delivereth in debilitating those answers which he takes in to consideration . . this answer was made by our brittaine divines in the synod of dort upon the first article , but so , as that they proposed it not by it selfe alone , but joyntly with shewing that neither the nature of our doctrine doth any way prove any hinderance unto pietie ; as formerly i have made mention therof . whereas he sayth that many of this ( our ) opinion are godly men but that is no thankes to their opinion that they are so . i answer , that neither doe we give the glory of our godlinesse to our good opinion , nor have cause to thanke it therefore ; but we give god the glory both of leading us into this truth amongst many others , and for that godlinesse that is in us also . for we acknowledge that god is able to convict our consciences of that trueth hereof , and yet refuse to lead us thereby into any holinesse at all . yet let every sober man judge who are in a fairer way to true holinesse , or who are more likely to be in the state of true holinesse , they that oppose the grace of god in working our wills to faith and repentance , or they that acknowledge it . they who maintaine that god of the meere pleasure of his will , regenerates us , endueth us with the spirit of faith and repentance ; or they who maintaine that god doth not give faith and repentance to whom he will. neither is it the meaning of s t paul where he sayeth god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ; but rather where he findes an absolute disposition or worke in one , which he finds not in an other . againe consider i pray indifferently , who are more likely to be partakers of gods grace ; they who truly magnifie it as the author of their faith and repentance and of every good worke performed by them , and that in a preventing manner ; or they that pretend to make gods grace to be the author of their faith and repentance and every good worke only by giving them power to believe , if they will ( which we are able to prove both by the judgment of austin and by cleare reason to be meere nature and not grace ) and accordingly exhorting them to believe , and last of all concurring with them to the producing of the act of faith in them in case they will ; and seeing grace proves effectuall only by this subsequent manner of operation ; whether they doe not plainely mocke god in making him the author of grace , seing in respect of this effectuall operation they might as well make him the author of every sinfull act as of every gratious act , for it is agreed on all hands that god concurres as well to every sinfull act as any gratious act . whereas he sayth , the true and naturall genius of our tenet is to breed sloth , and to drowne men in carnall security , and to countenance carnall libertie . i answer these words of his are but wind , his reasons i have already considered , and proved them to be of no weight . for they depend partly upon a vaine supposition , as if we maintained that god hath oppointed men unto salvation though they live as they list , whereas our doctrine is directly contradictious here unto . for we teach that god ordaines no man of ripe yeares to obtaine salvation but by sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth as we are plainly taught thess . . . and the evangelist signifies as much , where he saieth . as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life . act. . . it may be as well said that as many repented , as many gave themselves to worke out their salvation with feare and trembling to purge themselues from all pollutions of flesh and spirit , and to perfect holinesse in the feare of god , as were ordained to salvation : partly because we maintaine that god gives faith and repentance and regeneration to whom he will , that is only to those whom he hath chosen , denying the same grace and that absolutely ; unto all others , which if it be not true ; but that god doth grant it , or ordaine it according to mens workes , then we must all turne pelagians , whom austin calls inimicos gratiae dei ; and in such a case judge i pray whether it be possible that such can be partakers of gods grace , namely , if they are the enemies of gods grace . is it possible that he who partakes of gods sanctifying grace should stand out in hostile opposition against it ? can we be at once both friends of the bridegroom and enimies of his grace ? further consider more particularly wherein doth this consist , which he imputes unto us , of drowning men in carnall securitie , is it in denying unto man any grace that he attributes unto him ? surely well we may deny unto every reprobate such a grace as he himselfe hates , and impugnes to wit , grace effectually preventing the will , and making man to believe and repent , but if you scanne every particular of those which he calleth grace , you shall find that we deny not any one of them unto reprobates more then he doth . this perhaps may seeme strange unto you ; therefore it deserves the more carefully to be considered ; for i doubt not but to make it good . grace subsequent is the only effectuall grace with them , and that consists in gods concurrence to the working of faith in the heart of man , if man will worke it in him selfe . now dare they say we deny , this namely , gods concourse to the act of faith , whereas we maintaine with them that god concurres to every act , even to the most sinfull act , that ever was committed since the world began ; only we are a shamed to call this concurrence grace , because it is found to have course as well in the producing of evill actions , as in the producing of good . so that if every man in the world should believe , we deny not but that god should concurre with him to the working of that belief , we professe that if every reprobate in the world will believe , god is ready to concurre with him to the act of that will of that belief . from the consideration of their grace subsequent i arise to the consideration of their grace prevenient , and that is two fold , one is the grace exciting , to wit , by morall admonition , suasion , exhortation , this act we are willing to call and account a gratious act , & we doe as willingly acknowledge that god affords it unto all reprobates ( as well as to the elect ) within the pale of the church . for every one that appeares in any congregation is equally exhorted to believe , to repent , to turne from their wicked wayes . so that hitherto we find no difference . we willingly acknowledge that reprobates are partakers of these operations divine as well as the elect . one grace prevenient remaines , which is habituall , and which our adversaries will have to be universall and it consistes in a power to believe and repent , and to will any spirituall good whereunto they were excited , and accordingly they call it the enlivening of mans will. this i deliver by experience of what i have seen under the hands of some of them . yet they will not acknowledge that all are regenerate ; yet what is regeneration , but the infusion of life spirituall , and that chiefly into the will ; and they will have the will to be enlivened by grace , which cannot be spoken in respect of life naturall , therefore it must proceed of life spirituall , unlesse they will devise a life intermediate between life naturall , and life spirituall . some times they call it a power to believe if they will , and such a power austin acknowledgeth common to all , lib. . gen. ad liter : cap . and justifies it in his retract . lib. . now this seemes somewhat strange , considering the very regenerate have not such strength of goodnesse , as whereby they are inabled to doe what good they would , as rom. . . to will is present with me but i find , not to performe that which is good . and gal : . . the flesh lusteth against the spirit , and the spirit against the flesh , and these are contrary one to the other , so that ye cannot doe the same things that ye would . to helpe this and to cleare austin from contradiction to expresse scripture in this ; i find that posse si velit is one thing , posse simply delivered is another thing . and this i find distinguished in that very place of austines retractations ; for whereas as he had sayd in that lib. . de gen. contr . man. cap . that , omnes homines possunt si velint , both credere , and ab amore visibilium rerum & temporalium se ad dei praecerta implenda convertere . and comming to retract this , and perceiving what advantage the pelagians might s●atch hence for the countenancing of their cause , in extolling the power of nature , he wisely prevents that by expounding himselfe , and clearing his owne meaning thus . non existiment novi haeretici pelagiani secundum eos esse dictum ; manifesting thereby that this was the pelagian tenet yet were they not to be blamed for this , but only because they called not in gods grace for further helpe then this , save only in the way of instruction . for austin concurred with them still in this particular even then when he wrote his books of retractations , as there it followes in these words verum est enim omnino ( marke by this emphasis with what assurance of faith he delivered this ) omnes homines hoc posse si velint : thus farre he goes along with them : but then marke wherin he goes beyond them in these words following ; sed praeparatur voluntas a domino & tantum augetur munere charitatis ut possint ; when he sayeth , praeparatur voluntas a domino , the effect thereof undoubtedly is ut velint which is the state and condition of the regenerate , who yet may complaine that they cannot doe that which they would as the apostle formerly signifies , that is that simply and effectually they have not yet power enough to what they will ; therefore austin addes to the preparation of the will , ut velint , an augmentation of strength ut possint , saying tantumque augetur munere charitatis ut possint ; that is ; not only to will that which is good , but so intensely to will it , as to prevaile over the flesh lusting against the spirit , whereby it comes , ut non modo velint , sed & possint ; and consequently & efficiant quod velint . so that posse simpliciter doth include velle ; and addes such strength thereto as now to goe on to the doing of that it wills without restraint from the flesh . and that this posse is but an augmentation of the gratious disposition of the will , appeares by the same austin de corrept . & gratia . cap. . prima gratia est qua sit ut habeat homo justitiam si velit , secunda ergo plus potest , qua etiam sit ut velit , & tantum velit tantoque ardore diligat , ut carnis voluntatem contraria concupiscentem voluntate spiritus vincat . the first grace is that whereby a man may have righteousnesse if he will , therfore the second grace is of more power , as whereby a man is made to will and that in such measure , as by the will of the spirit to overcome the will of the flesh affecting that which is contrary thereunto . and in the very next chapter , c. . he calles this prevailing will , posse simply , tantum spiritu sancto accenditur voluntas eorum , ut ideo possint , quia sic velint , & ideo velint , quia deus sic operatur ut velint ; their will is in such measure inflamed with the holy spirit , that therefore they are able ( to doe that which is good ) because they will in such a measure , & therefore they will in such a measure because god so works as to make them willing in such measure : austin goes on in this manner nam si in tanta infirmitate vitae hujus ipsis relinqueretur voiuntas sua , ut in adjutorio dei manerent si vellent , nec deus in iis operaretur ut vellent inter tot & tantas tentationes infirmitate sua voluntas ipsa succumberet , & ideo perseverare non possent , quia deficientes infirmitate nec vellent , aut non ita vellent infirmitate voluntatis ut possent . for if in so great infirmitie of this life , their will were left unto thē , that in the helpe of god they might continue if they would , & god should not work in them that they would , amongst so many and so great tentations , this will it selfe would sinke ( under the burthen of them ) and therefore could not persevere , because failing through infirmity they would not , or ( at least ) they would not in such a measure , through the wills infirmity , as to be able to stand . so that posse simpliciter still with austin includes the will , and is a denomination of the will , arising from the strength of it prevailing above the flesh , lusting to the contrary . in like sort honorius augustodunensis de praedest . & lib. arbit : diverse times ascribes posse to grace subsequent , like as he ascribes velle to grace prevenient , as when he sayth ; deus operatur in electis suis sua gratia praeveniendo velle , & subseqendo posse . and againe , gratiam accipimus , cum nos deus praevenit , ut velimus , & subsequitus ut possimus . and againe gratia dei praevenit ut bonum quod sprevit cupiat , & sequitur ut illud implere praevaleat . so that in effect this posse comes to be all one with agere or perficere quod volumus . for when we not only will that which is good , but so affectionately will it , as to prevaile over the flesh lusting against it , all inward impediments being thus mastered , the perfecting of that we will must needes follow . but as for that posse si velint , this goes before the willing of it and i see no reason to the contrary but that we may with austin acknowledge such a power common to all ; which in the disputations between austin and pelagius was called possibilitas agendi quod bonum est ; and austin was so farre from excepting against it as maintained by pelagius , that more then once ; he professeth , that in case like as he acknowledged posse to be from god , so he would acknowledge velle and agere to be from god he should be received for a good catholique in this , by austins judgment . i will cite a passage or two out of austin expresly signifying this , & that out of his booke de gratia christi , contra pelag : & caelest : the first is cap . pelagius his words are these . qui ipsius voluntatis & operis possibilitatem dedit whereupon austin writeth thus hanc autem possibilitatem in natura eum ponere , de verbis ejus superioribus clarum est . sed ne nihil de grati a dixisse videretur , adjunxit , quique ipsam possibilitatem gratiae suae adjuvat semper auxilio ; non ait , ipsam voluntatem vel ipsam operationem , quod si diceret , non abhorrere a doctrina apostolica videretur : as much as to say , did he acknowledge this he should be a good catholique ; now ad juvare voluntatem & operationem , in austins phrase is effectually , operari ut velit & operetur homo quod bonum est ; as appeares by that which followeth . sed ait ( to wit pelagius ) ipsam possibilitatem illud videlicet ex tribus quod in natura locavit gratiae suae adjuvat semper auxilio . now marke austins interpretation of him thus , ut scilicet in voluntate & actione non ideo laus sit dei & hominis quia sic vult homo , ut tamen ejus voluntati deus ardorem dilectionis inspiret ; so that adjuvare voluntatem in austins phrase , is inspirare voluntati dilectationis ardorem . so then i see no reason , but that wee may well grant unto our adversaries , that all men have a power to believe if they will , and from the love of temporall things , to convert themselves to the keeping of gods commandements ; but this is meere nature in austins judgement ; for he calls it in that very chapter , naturalem possibilitatem , and cap. . coming to an issue : si ergo consenserit nobis , non solam possibilitatem , sed ipsam quoque voluntatem & actionem divinitus adjuvari , & sic adjuvari , ut sine ullo adjutorio nihil bene velimus & agamus , eamque esse gratiam dei per jesum christum , nihil de adjutorio gratiae dei , quantum arbitror , inter nos controversiae relinquetur . and indeed to say that a man hath power to believe and repent if he will ; this is not to maintaine any universall grace otherwise ; then as nature may be called grace . for grace is goodnesse , but goodnesse doth not consist in a power to do good if we will ; but it is an habituall disposing of the will to that which is good only , how much more is it so of grace which we count supernaturall goodnesse . neither is the maintenance of such a power to doe good , any contradiction to holy scripture , testifying that men cannot believe , cannot repent , cannot please god , cannot be subject to the law of god , cannot doe good ; for , this impotency is only morall , and the subject of this impotency is only the will and it consists in the corruption thereof , being wholly turned away from god , and converted to the creature in an inordinate manner ; enemies and strangers from god , their minds being set on evill things . col. . . and to say that a man can believe if he will , can from the love of visible and temporall things , convert himselfe to the observation of gods precepts if he will , which austin in his latter daies , even then when he wrote his retractations , professeth to be true omninò . and in his book ad marcellinum de spiritu & litera . cap. . professeth it an absurd thing to deny this namely , that every one may believe if he will. vide nunc utrum quisque credat si noluerit aut non credat si voluerit . quod si absurdum est &c. and cap. . cum ergo fides in potestate sit , quoniam cum vult quisque credit , & cum credit volens credit . i say to affirme this ( namely that a man can believe if he will ) is no more then to say , that a dead man can speake if he were alive . for as the scripture teacheth , that all men are dead in sinne , 'till the spirit of regeneration comes to breath into our hearts , the breath of a spirituall life ; so this deadnesse is to be found no where so much , as in the will. and therefore aquinas professeth , that a man is more corrupt , quoad appetitum boni , then quoad intellectum veri . the heathen could professe , video meliora proboque deteriora sequor . and in my experience i find that arminians doe not satisfie themselves with this universality of grace , as to say , a man can doe good if he will , unlesse they adde , that also potest velle ; as i have observed in corvinus . and those whom i have in private been acquainted with doe not rest in this , that all men can believe if they will , but they say also , that by universall grace , the will is enlivened , as i have seen under their hands , and thereby enabled to the willing of any spirituall good , whereto they shall be excited . so that if they rested here , to wit , in saying , that by universall grace all men may believe if they will , there is no grace acknowledged by them , tending to the furtherance of the good of mankind , but we acknowledge it as well as they , and make the extension of it as large as they . and therefore the more vaine and voyd of all reason is their pretence , that we for want of acknowledging such an universality of grace as they doe , doe drowne men in carnall security , and countenance carnall liberty . only though we grant the reality of that which they maintaine , yet we deny that it deserves to be called grace , as touching the first prevenient grace as they call it , which we with austin say deserves to be called nature rather then grace , as we speake of grace , to wit , as distinct from nature , and indeed supernaturall . and as for grace subsequent , that consisting only in concourse , we deny that to be grace ; for as much as gods concourse is granted as well to any sinfull act , as to any gracious act , as now adaies is commonly acknowledged on all sides . but as for the enlivening of all mens wills , and enabling them to will any spirituall good whereto they shall be excited ( for this is their very forme of words ) we utterly deny this , and are ready to demonstrate the unreasonablenesse thereof . for first seeing this cannot be understood of life naturall but of life spirituall , it followeth that all men by this doctrine are regenerated ; and as they confesse this disposition continues in all unto death , so it followeth , that all and every one should dye in the state of regeneration also : secondly , seeing there are but three sorts of qualities in the soule of a reasonable creature , as aristotle hath observed , to wit , powers , passions , and habits ; it followeth that this enlivening of the will must consist , either in giving it new powers , or new passions , or new habits , which it had not before . but neither of these can be affirmed with any sobriety , neither doe i find that they look to be called to any such account , but in their aëriall contemplations of gods attributes , especially of his mercy and justice , shaped at pleasure , doe conceive hand over head , that such an enlivening there must be of the will of man in all , without troubling themselves to enquire wherein it consists . but let us proceed in our triall of the soundnesse of it , by the touch-stone of rationall and christian discourse . first therefore , i say it can be no new power infused into the will by this enlivening ; for the will it selfe is a power ; and it was never heard that potentia can be subjectum potentiae , a power can be the subject of a power ; and that a power should be in a power , as an accident in the subject thereof . rationall powers are but two , the power of understanding , and the power of willing , and both these are naturall , following ex principiis speciei , from the very nature of the humane soule , as all confesse . but some may say , are there not supernaturall powers bestowed on man as well as naturall ? i answer , these supernaturall powers , are but the elevating of the naturall powers unto supernaturall objects ; as the understanding by enlightning it , and the will by sanctifying it . never was it said , i presume , that a man regenerate had two understandings in him , by the one to understand things naturall , and by the other to understand things spirituall ; but that by the same understanding he understands both , but by light of nature the one , by light of grace the other . the holy ghost saith , that they who are accustomed to doe evill , can no more doe good , then a blackemore can change his skinne , and a leopard his spots : yet when men of evill become good , they get not new powers properly , but new dispositions rather of their naturall powers , which we call habits , and may be called morall powers , but not of indifferency to doe good or evill , such as the naturall power of the will is , but such as whereby is wrought in the will , a good likeing of that which is good , an abhorring of that which is evill ; so that indeed these morall powers doe not make the will able to will , but rather actually willing of that which is good in generall , which generall willingnesse is specified according to objects present , and opportunities offered of doing good in one kind rather then another . like as justice makes a man willing unto just actions , which willingnesse is exercised this way or that way , according to emergent occasions . secondly , no new passions are given by this enlivening of the will ; well our passions may be ordered aright , both touching their objects , and touching the season , and touching the measure , & touching the rule of them ; and in respect of this gracious ordering of them , they may be called new ; like as a man regenerate is called a new man , though as he hath the same members of his body , nor more nor lesse , so he hath still the same faculties and passions of the soule , no more nor no lesse ; but these faculties are better seasoned , these passions are better ordered , and in like sort , these members of the body , are better employed then they were before ; before they were made weapons of unrighteousnesse unto sinne , now they are made , weapons of righteousnesse unto god. rom. . . thirdly , let us enquire whether by this pretended enlivening of the will common to all men , there are any new habits engendred . for that is the most probable . and so we commonly say that in regeneration , besides the receiving of the spirit of god to dwell in our hearts , which is a great mistery , there are certaine habits whereby our naturall powers are elevated unto supernaturall objects , and thereby fitted to performe supernaturall acts ; and these are but three , ( and accordingly but three sorts of supernatuall acts ) and commonly accounted the three theologicall vertues , faith , hope , and charity ; and all morall vertues , which for the substance of them , in reference to their acts whereby they are acquired , and which they doe bring forth , are found in naturall men , doe become christian graces , as they are sanctified by these three , and as their actions doe proceed from these . by faith we apprehend things beyond the compasse of reason , by hope we wait for the enjoying of such things , which neither eye hath seen , &c. and by charity , we love god ( whom yet we have not seene ) even to the contempt of our selves . now i presume they will not say that these habits of faith , hope , and charity , are bestowed upon all and every one , by that fained universall grace of theirs . and what other habits they doe or can devise , i have had as yet no experience , neither am i able to comprehend . and indeed faith doth not leave a man in indifferency to believe or no ; nor hope to wait , or no ; nor charity to love god , or no : but they doe all dispose the heart of man to believe only , to wait upon god only , to love god only ; they being the curing of infidelity , and despaire , & hatred of god , or rather the removing of them , yet but in part , as regeneration in this life is but in part , there being still a flesh in us lusting against the spirit . gal. . . thus we may maintaine , that albeit every man hath power to believe if he will , and repent if he will , a will to believe and a will to repent being the greatest worke in the work of grace , i meane the renovation of the will , and making it willing to that which is good , though it requires strength also to master the lusting of the flesh , whereby it growes simply and absolutely potent to doe every good thing , without any effectuall impediment from within , yet neverthelesse , till this renovation be wrought by the hand of god , we may well say there is an utter impotency morall to doe any thing that is good and pleasing in the sight of god , whereby they cannot believe , they cannot repent , they cannot be subject to the law of god , and if to preach this doctrine be to breed sloth , to drowne men in carnall security , and to countenance carnall liberty ; then our saviour did breed sloth &c. when he told his hearers plainly , he that is of god heareth gods words , ye therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god , ioh. . . as likewise when he preached unto them in this maner . no man can come to me , except the father which sent me draw him . ioh. . . and the evangelist also in saying , he hath blinded their eyes , and hardned their hearts , that they should not see with their eyes , nor understand with their hearts , and should be converted , and i should heale them . ioh. . . and none more then moses , when he tells the people of israel in the wildernesse , saying , ye have seen all that the lord did before your eyes in the land of egypt , unto pharaoh and unto all his servants , and to all his land . the great temptations which thine eyes have seen , those great miracles and wonders , yet the lord hath not given you an heart to perceive , and eyes to see , and eares to heare unto this day . yet this author confesseth that our saviours hearers , and moses his hearers , many of them might be godly men ; but no thankes to this doctrine of theirs that they were so ( the true and naturall genius whereof ( to wit , of christs doctrine and moses his doctrine , for it is apparent , that it is the same with ours in this particular we now speake of ) is to breed sloth , to drowne men in carnall security , and to countenance carnall liberty ) but to some thing else , either to gods providence who will not suffer this doctrine ( for his own glory and the good of men ) to have any great stroake in their lives ; or to mens incogitancy , who think not of reducing it , ad praxim , or drawing conclusions out of it , but rest in the naked speculation of it , as they doe of many others ; or lastly to some good practicall conclusions , which they meet with in gods word , and apply to their lives ( as they doe not the former deductions ) such as these are . be ye holy as i am holy : without holinesse no man shall see god : spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici ? yet i pray restraine that , and give your sorrow course rather in beholding such prophane aspersions cast upon the holy doctrine of christ , his prophets and apostles ; as if thereby sloth were bred , and men drowned in carnall security , and carnall liberty countenanced . we are of another mind , for wisedome is justified of her children ; we observe the wisedome of god herein to prevent the greatest illusions of satan ; and such doctrines as stand in most opposition unto grace . the morality of heathen men was admirable ; yet were it farre greater , we conceive no greater opposition unto grace , then to look for justification by it . in the next place , we conceive there is no greater opposition unto grace , then for a man to arrogate unto himselfe , ability to doe that which is pleasing in the sight of god. our saviour hath said . iohn . . that , as the branch cannot beare fruit of it selfe , except it abide in the vine , so neither can wee except we abide in him . so that either all the world must be engrafted into christ or else it is not possible they should bring forth sweet grapes . yet these men will have all and every one , to have their wills enlivened and enabled to will any spirituall good , whereby they shall be excited . is this doctrine of theirs fit to humble them , and not rather to puffe them up with a conceit of their own sufficiency ? is not our doctrine farre more fit to humble us , and to what other end tendeth that of moses , the lord hath not given you an heart to perceive , eyes to see , and eares to heare unto this day , but to beat them out of the conceit of any sufficiency in them , to profit either by gods word , or by his works , so as to be drawn thereby to doe any thing that was pleasing in the sight of god ; and can there be any true holinesse where humility is wanting ? againe , they are only thankfull unto god for giving them power to believe , to repent , and for exciting them hereunto ; and concurring with them to the act of faith and repentance , for they acknowledge no other grace but this ; we are bound by our doctrine to be thankfull , not only for these operations , but also for causing us to walke in his statutes , to keepe his judgements and doe them , for healing our wayes , our back-slidings , our rebellions , they by their doctrine , are bound to be thankfull unto god , for no other grace in the way of grace prevenient , then such as he vouchsafeth to reprobates , and did vouchsafe to cain , to judas , and to the divells themselves ; how is it that they are not stricken with feare , least in this case their condition be no better , then the condition of reprobates though god in good time may provide better things for them , then their opinions , have any congruity unto , having course only to the obscuring and defacing of gods grace ? we by our doctrine are bound to give god thanks for ruling us with a mighty hand , and making us to passe under the rod , and bringing us unto the bond of the covenant ; for taking away our stony heart , and giving us an heart of flesh ; for circumcising our hearts to love him with all our heart ; for raising us out of the dead , when he found us dead in sinne ; for working in us both the will , and the deed of every good worke , not according to any thing in us , but according to his good pleasure : and this is so farre from breeding sloth in us , or to drowne us in carnall security in the apostles judgement as that upon this very ground , as by a forceable inducement he exhorts us to worke out our salvation with feare and trembling , manifestly implying , that when men are of another opinion , as namely to thinke that the will and deed of any good thing is their owne worke , or if they doe acknowledge it to be gods work , yet if they doe not acknowledge it to be wrought by god , according to his good pleasure , but according to some disposition whereby they dispose themselves thereunto ; that is the high-way to make them carnally secure , and how but by a carnall confidence that they have power to turne to god when they list , to believe and repent when they will , and withall that their wills are as pliable to good as to evill , and so make it an easy mater at any time to turne to god. i appeale to the judgment of every sober conscience to judge betweene us which of our doctrines most tends to the countenancing of carnall security , according to the tenor of the apostles exhortation in this place and that in coherence with the reason whereby he doth enforce it , theirs , or ours . but to proceed , they acknowledge christ to have merited for them only a power to believe and repent and meanes to excite them hereunto , and concourse divine to the act of believing and repenting in case they will ; we acknowledge not only all this , but over and above that christ hath merited for us , the working of our wills effectually and predominantly hereunto , and that god makes us perfect to every good worke , working in us that which is pleasing in his sight through jesus christ . nay what will you say , if the remonstrants now a dayes openly professe , that christ merited not for any man faith and regeneration , and i commend them for their ingenuity , in dealing fairly and plainly confessing that which their opinion doth manifestly drive unto . lastly we confesse that god hath power as to shew mercy on whom he will , and harden whom he will , so to make whom he will a vessell of mercy , and whom he will a vessell of wrath , this we clearely professe , namely , that god hath such power even over our selves , and our childeren and all those that are neere and deare unto us , as over any others : but this these adversaries of ours now a days utterly deny ; now i pray consider whose doctrine savoreth of greater holinesse in acknowledging the soveraignty of god over his creatures , theirs or ours ? but it will not be labour lost altogether to consider those causes whereunto he is pleased to impute that godlinesse , which is found in us . the first is gods providence ; and indeed i find them liberall enough in acknowledging gods providence in generall termes , and as forward to blast it when they come to particulars . now as for that providence which is the cause of godlinesse , we like plaine fellowes comonly call it grace , and the ground of this authors subtility in calling it providence and not grace , i comprehend not . but what is that operation of providence divine or grace which is the cause of godlinesse ? is it any other in his opinion then that universall grace whereby they have power to be godly and which grace god affords unto reprobates , and that exciting grace whereby god perswades them to be godly , and his readinesse to concurre to any act of godlinesse in case we will : and is not all this afforded ( in his opinion ) to reprobates as well as to the elect , to them that have no godlinesse at all in them , as to them that have ? and why may not this doctrine of ours whereby we maintaine , that god workes in us both the will and the deed according to his goodpleasure , be a meanes to make us set our selves to the working out of our salvation with feare and trembling , considering that the apostle professeth this doctrine of gods energeticall operation of every good thing in us as a strong inducement to worke out our salvation with feare and trembling ; and wherein consists any mans godlinesse if not in this , to wit , in working out his salvation with feare and trembling ? and is it not apparent that we maintaine this doctrine . namely , that god is he who workes in us both the will and the deed , and every good thing , and that according to his good pleasure in farre more undoubted manner then they doe . and how can it appeare that they doe acknowledge this ? to give us power to will that which i good ( which is the effect of that universall grace they talke of ) is this to worke in us either the will or the deed ? to excite us by perswasion and exhortation to will & doe that which is good , to believe and to repent , is to worke either in us the will or deed of that which is good , of faith of repentance ? lastly to be ready to concurre with us to the will or deed of faith and repentance if so be we will concurre with him to the same , or to concurre with us to the producing of the act of willing & the act of doing that which is good , in case we produce the same act of willing and doing that which is good , is this to worke in us both the will and the deed ? consider i pray is it not true that god is as ready to concurre with us to any sinfull act , in case we will concurre with him ; and doth he not concurre with man to the produceing of any sinfull act , in case man at that time doth produce it ; and will any sober man say that this is also for god to worke in him both the will and the deed of every sinfull act ? and why might we not say so , if god workes it only by concourse ? lastly to worke in us both the will and the deed provided that man will concurre to the working hereof not otherwise , is this to worke it according to his good pleasure , and not rather according to mans good pleasure ? and how i pray , or in what sence doth he say that god by his providence will not suffer this doctrine to have any stroke in our lives ? for if he suffers it not , then he hinders it ; let it therefore be made appeare how he hinders it ; to concurre with us , if we will concurre with him in the producing of any act of godlinesse , is this to hinder our carnall security ? if so then to concurre with us to the producing of any sinfull act is to hinder our godlinesse . surely to give power whereby men are enabled to doe any spirituall good if they will is not to hinder carnall security , for such a power is given to all by universall grace , yet this doth nothing hinder the carnall security of many thousands . or doth he hinder it by exciting us to the contrary ? yet if this doctrine ( as we conceive ) be apt to drowne us in carnall security , how can he be sayd to hinder us from it ? for either the doctrine must yeeld to such excitations & exhortations from carnall security ; or such exhortations must yeeld to the doctrine , especially considering what austin sayth , that if there be any difference betweene docere and suadere or exhortari ; yet even this doctrinae generalitate comprehenditur . and for incogitancy , which is a second device , pretended as the cause why this doctrine doth not expose us to carnality , is it not incredible , these poynts being so much ventilated by them as none more ? the church of god having been exercised with none more ( as i think ) these hundred yeares ; that men should not think of , or consider of those dangerous consequences in manners , as these doe forge in their own braines . and as for the last , imputing our godlinesse to some good practicall conclusions ; may i not justly say , that if ever any man wrote with the spirit of giddinesse , this author deserves to have a chiefe place amongst them : for compare his answer to the second objection with this ; there he saith such dissolute conclusions as these following , doe arise out of this doctrine of ours : if i be chosen , i must of necessity believe and be saved ; if i be cast off , i must as necessarily not believe and be damned ; what need i therefore take thought either way about meanes or end . now will it not as well follow , what need i therefore take thought of holinesse , of obedience ? for even these are as good practicall conclusions . believe and thou shalt be saved . repent and thou shalt be saved , and whosoever bebelieveth not shall be damned . as these , be ye holy as i am holy . without holinesse no man shall see god. if ye consent and obey , ye shall eate the good things of the land. and by the way observe i pray , with what judgement he calls them practicall conclusions ; whereas all save two of them , are exhortations rather then conclusions ; and those two ; to wit , without holinesse no man shall see god , and , godlinesse hath the promises , both of this life &c. i should take them to be principles rather then conclusions . whether simple men doe apply their braines to ponder and consider this doctrine or no , i know not ; but certainly the learned and godly maintainers of it , have had cause enough to ponder it , and consider it throughly , and have given evidence enough of their thorough consideration of it ; yet have they fetcht no such sequells out of it . if simple men doe , and our adversaries be of the number of them , and content themselves with such simplicity ; yet is it not enough for us that the apostle doth not ? the holy apostle s. paul ? but expressely enforceth the contrary there from ; namely ; that because of god worketh in us the will and the deed according to his good pleasure , therefore it becomes us to worke out our salvation with feare and trembling ? now which of us doe most exactly concurre with the apostle in mainning that god doth worke in us both the will and the deed according to his good pleasure , i am very well content , that all the world both wise and simple , both learned and unlearned may judge . . as touching the second ; first let us consider how the objection is shaped . secondly , as it lies , with what judgement and sobriety it is impugned . . it is true men are absolutely elected or absolutely rejected ; but we content not our selves with generalities , wherein as aristotle hath observed , doe lurke many equivocations : neither doe we delight in confounding things that differ . election and rejection or reprobation , and in generall the will of god , may be considered , either quoad actum voluntis , as touching the act of god willing , or as touching the things willed . of this distinction this author takes no notice ; it is fit for some and advantagious to fish in troubled waters . now as touching the act of god willing ; both aquinas hath proved , that there can be no cause thereof ; and withall professeth , that never was any so mad as to say that merites can be the cause of predestination , quoad actum praedestinantis , as touching the act of god predestinating . and bradwardine hath curiously disputed this way that no will of god is conditionall , to will quoad actum volentis , and piscator against vorstius hath proved the same after his way ; and by variety of demonstration this way may be convinced , as in part i have shewed in this discourse , both on the part of election , and on the part of reprobation . and both d r jackson in his booke of providence , professeth that the distinction of voluntas antecedens and consequens , or antecedent and consequent will in god is to be understood quoad res volitas as touching the things willed , as much as to say , non quoad actum volentis . and gerardus vossius drawing the distinction of will antecedent and will consequent unto the distinction of will absolute and will conditionall , applyes it only quoad res volitas , and so interpriteth fathers discourse thereof ; and of a conditionall will gives this instance ; god will have men to be saved , in case they believe where faith is clearely made the condition of salvation , a temporall thing the condition of a temporall thing , not the condition of gods will to save ; it being no way fit that a temporall thing should be made the condition of a thing eternall , such as is gods will to save . and this is more apparent by the reading of vossius himselfe . histor : pelag : l : . treating of gods will to save all . now if we speake thus of gods will quoad res volitas as touching the things willed ; these things willed being very different , wee have reason to consider them distinctly also . now these things are either grace or glory cōmonly called salvation , and as touching grace , to wit , the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentannee , we willingly confesse that gods will to conferre them is so absolute , that he hath determined to conferre them according to the meere pleasure of his will , not according to mans workes ( which is plaine pelagianisme and condemned in the synod of palestine above yeares agoe ) and as he gives them to whom he will , so he denyes them to whom he will according to that rom. . . he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . but as touching salvation or damnation in which respect this author usually speakes of the absolute or conditionall will of god ; we uttererly deny , that god in the dispensation or administration , or execution of these proceeds or ever did decree to proceed according to the meere pleasure of his owne will , but altogether according to theire workes . for albeit god hath made no law according whereto he meanes to proceed in giving or denying grace , yet hath he made a law according whereto he proceeds in bestowing salvation , and inflicting damnation . and the law is this : whosever believeth shall be saved , whosoever believeth not shall bedamned cor. . . we must all appeare before the judgement seate of christ , that every man may receive the things , which are done in his body according to that he hath done , whether good or evill . so that according to that sence wherein this author usually speakes of the absolute and conditionall will of god , we utterly deny that god doth absolutely elect any man to salvation , or reject any man unto damnation ; though he doth absolutely elect some unto grace , that is to the grace of regeneration ; to the grace of faith and repentance , and absolutely reject others there from . for as much as he bestowes these graces on some and denies them unto others not according to their workes , but according to the meere pleasure of his owne will , but he doth not inflict damnaton or bestow salvation according to the meere pleasure of his will , but according unto mans works . and as he carrieth himselfe in the execution of salvation and damnation , after the same manner he did from everlasting decree to carry himselfe , namely to save no man of ripe yeares but by way of reward of their faith , repentance , and good workes ; so to damne none but for their infidelity , impenitency and evill works . as for the manifestation of gods will of election and reprobation unto any , we say , that ordinarily , man may be assured of his election . for the spirit of god is given to this very end even to shed the love of god in our hearts , that is , gods love towards us . rom : . . and what is the shedding therefore in our hearts , but his working in us a sense and feeling thereof , especially considering that the sence of gods love to us is the cause of our love to wards god ; according to that john. . . we love him because he loved us first : and accordingly the spirit is sayd to testifie unto our spirits that we are the sonnes rom. . and if sonnes then heyres , even heyres of god , and heyres annexed with christ . and the apostle s t peter exhorts us to give diligence te make our election & vocation sure ; implying manifestly that men may be sure of their election ; otherwise why should our saviour wish his disciples to rejoyce not in this that divells were subdued unto them , but that their names were writen in heaven . and by what meanes may a man be assured hereof , but either immediatly by the testimony of the spirit , or mediatly by the fruits of the spirit as the fruits of our election ; one where of is faith plainly so signified act , . . as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life . and act. . last . god added daily to the church such as should be saved ; and repentance is another : act. . . then hath god unto the gentiles also given repentance unto life . giving to understand that as many as to whom god giveth repentance , he hath ordained them unto life . and indeed by the worke of our faith , and labour of our love , and the patience of our hope , others come to be assured of our election ( how much more our selves , no man knowing the things of mā so as the spirit of man cor : . ) thus s t paul professeth his assurance of the election of the thessalonians thess . . , . we remember the worke of your faith , and the labour of your love &c. knowing beloved bretheren that ye are elect of god. and hereupon he proceeds to assure them , that antichrist by all his deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse shall never prevaile over them ; in as much as he prevailes only over them that perish thess : . . but as for them they are the elect of god ; and how doth he know that ? surely by their faith and sanctification which were visible in them v : . but we ought to give god thankes allwayes for you , bretheren beloved of the lord , because that god hath from the begining chosen you unto salvation by sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth . but as for reprobation we say that no man can by any ordinary way be assured thereof , seing nothing but finall perseverance in infidelity or impenitency is the infallible signe thereof , whence it followes that no way of desperation is open to one , but the way of assurance and abundance of consolation is opened to the other , and thereby encouragement to proceed cheerefully in the wayes of godlinesse , being assured that the more holy they are the greater shall be their reward . and surely if certainty of salvation were a meanes of licentiousnesse , the apostle s. peter would never have exhorted us , to give diligence to make our calling and election sure . and we manifestly seem to perceive strength of encouragement hereby unto godlinesse ; as being assured that christ dyed for us , to the end we might live unto him . and god receives us as sonnes and daughters to this end , that we should purge our selves from all pollutions of flesh and spirit , and perfect holinesse in the feare of god. as also being assured , that god will not lay our infirmities and sinnes unto our charge , and will be ready to keepe us from presumptuous sinnes , and however it fares with us , yet sinne shall not have dominion over us , ( and consequently we shall have the victory over it , either by obedience , or by repentance ) because we are not under the law but under grace . rom. . . now what encouragement is this to the souldiers of christ , to goe on chearefully and couragiously in fighting the lords battailes against the world , the flesh and the divell , seing we are assured the day of victory and the glory of it shall be ours in the end : god keeping us by his power through faith unto salvation pet. . and delivering us from every evill worke ( to wit either by obedience or by repentance ) and preserving us to his heavenly kingdome ; and that either , by delivering us from the houre aftentation which comes all over the world revel : . or delivering us out of it pet : . . or having an eye to our strength so to order it that we shall be able to beare it cor : . . as for those that have not yet any comfortable evidence of their election ; yet considering that they may have it , and albeit the number of the elect are by farre , fewer then the reprobate ; yet considering how few have the gospell in comparison to those that enjoy it not ; though turkes & saracens and heathens are without hope eph. . . and thess . . . yet we christians are not yea , albeit of them that are called , but few are chosen mat. . . and , . yet considering how many corrupt wayes there are amongst christians , nestorians , armenians , abyssines or coptites , who joyne circumcision with the gospel , as in egypt and ethiopia , ( the greek church denying the proceeding of the holy ghost from the sonne ) and corrupted with many other superstitions . lastly considering how farre antichristanity is spred and the abominable idolatry of the church of rome , we whom god hath delivered out of babylon have no cause ( i meane any particular person ) to project , that because the elect are but few , therefore we are not of the number of them , and thereupon give over all care of hearkening to gods word , which is the power of god unto salvation and may shew its power upon us also we knowe not how soone , but rather as our saviour answered ( being demanded of his disciples whether there were but few that should be saved ) saying strive [ you ] to enter in at the streight gate , plainly giving to understand , that as the gate is said to be streight that leadeth unto life , so there be but few that enter thereat & therefore they should strive so much the more to be of the number of those few . for what if along time we have little or nothing profited , what if we have cause to doubt whether we have any true faith or no ; such doubts maybe better signes then we are awar of ; otherwise why should the apostle exhort the corinthians to examine themselves and prove whether they were in the faith or no ? but however it fairs with us doth not the apostle plainely teach us , that god calls some at the first houre of the day , some at the the third , some at the last ? . now i come to the consideration of his answer to the objection , as himself hath formed it . and first i observe , that whereas he pretends to build his answer upon consideration of the number of reprobats without comparison greater then the number of the elect , yet the absurd reasoning which he brings hereupon , doth nothing at all depend on that . for albeit the number of the elect , were greater then the number of such as are reprobats , and that without comparison ; yet the reasoning here deduced from the contrary proposition hath equally place , as in the contrary case , as namely , to reason thus : either i am absolutely chosen to grace and glory or absolutely cast off from both . secondly the joyning of grace and glory together , as this author doth joyne them in this reasoning shaped by him is a miserable confounding of things that differ . for to be absolutely chosen unto grace is to be ordained to have grace conferred upon him not according to any worke of his , but meerely according to the good pleasure of gods will , answerably to that of the apostle , god hath mercy on whom he will , but no man is so chosen unto glory , as namely to be ordained to have salvation bestowed upon him not according unto workes , but according to the meere pleasure of god , if we speake of men of ripe yeares . for god hath ordained to bestow salvation on such only by way of reward of their faith , repentance , and good workes . so on the other side to be asolutely cast off from grace , is to be ordained to have grace denied him ; not according to any worke of his , but meerely according to the good pleasure of gods will , like as paul professeth , that the lord hardeneth whom he will , but no man is so castaway from glory , or unto damnation , as namely , to be ordained to be deprived of glory and to be damned , meerely for the good pleasure of god , but altogether for his infidelity , impenitency and evill workes . thirdly , no such thing followes as here is inferred from the supposition of election unto salvation . for seing no man is elected to obtaine salvation , whether he believe or no , but only in case he believe , hereupon men are rather excited to labour for faith , then to be carelesse thereof ; and farther we say , that as god hath ordained to bring them to salvation , so he hath ordained to bring them hereunto by sanctification and faith . thess . . . and the word of god is a powerfull meanes to worke them hereunto , even to the working out of their salvation with feare and trembling , & that because they are given to understand that god is he who wroketh in them both the will and the deed according to his good pleasure . on the other side if a man be ordained to damnatiō , yet seeing no man is ordained to be damned but for despising the means of grace in case he heare the gospel ; & for ought any man knowes he may as well be ordained to salvation as to damnation ; this i should think , is rather an excitement not to despise or neglect the meanes of grace , then to despise or neglect them . suppose god should not damne any man , but annihilate them , and suppose this were known unto us ; by the same argumentation it would follow , that a man should have no care of good workes : but this consequent is notoriously untrue . for seeing the perfection of my reasonable nature , whereby i differ from brute beasts , consisteth in knowledge and morall vertues ; and there is no knowledge that doth more ennoble us , then the knowledge of god , and no better rule of morality , then the law of god ; surely it stood me upon in reason , to strive according to my power to know god , and to be obedient rather then otherwise ; although i know for certaine , that after certaine yeares , both body and soule should be returned unto nothing . come wee now to the consideration of this reasoning , in respect of grace . suppose god hath elected me unto grace ; yet seeing he bestowes not grace but by his word , therefore there is no reason i should neglect the use of his word , but rather good reason why i should embrace it , and that with all earnestnesse . like as in case god hath ordained i shall have children , doth it hence follow that i neede not use the company of a woman ; because seeing god hath decreed i shall have children , therefore i may be sure to have them , whether i company with a woman or no , belike right as capons come by chicken ? on the other side , suppose god hath not ordained me unto grace ; yet hence it followeth not , that i should neglect all care of morall vertue , yea or the use of gods word . first not of morall vertue ; for next unto grace , morall vertue commends a man , and like as many heathens were famous for morality , without any sanctifying grace ; so may i be in the same kind of reputation also . and seeing no better rules of morality are to be found , then in the scriptures , therefore may i well be moved to give my selfe to the study thereof . and austin telleth us , that some , even of reprobates , by the word of god may proficere ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quò mitius puniantur . last of all , consider how the like objections were made against that destiny , which was maintained by the stoicks . carneades was a great oppugner of the stoicks , yet was ashamed of such a kind of argumentation as this author affecteth . for it was commonly accounted ignava ratio ; and thus turnebus writes of it , ignava autem ista ratio , captiosa cum esset , & calumniae plena , a carneade non probabatur , alioque argumento factum sine ulla captione oppugnabat . he had other manner of reasons to oppose fate stoicall , then by so sorry an argumentation as this . and this is delivered by turnebus , upon that passage in cicero's book de fato , where he sheweth how chrysippus did make answer unto this very argument in effect above yeares a goe ; take the words as they lye in cicero , nec nos impediet illa ignava ratio quae dicitur : appellatur enim quidem a philosophis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cui si pare amus , nihil est omnino quod agamus in vita . hic enim interrogant ( now i beseech you marke the argument well ) si fatum tibi est ex hoc morbo convalescere , sive medicum adhibueris , sive non , convalesces . item si fatum tibi est ex hoc morbo non convalescere sive tu medicum adhibueris , sive non , non convalesces . if it be destined that you shall recover out of this disease , whether you use the help of a physitian or no , you shall recover . againe , if it be destined that you shall not recover out of this disease , whether you use a physitian or no , you shall not recover . now compare this , i pray , with this authors argumentation in this place ; if i am chosen i must of necessity believe and be saved ; what need therefore to take thought either about meanes or end ? as much as to say , either of believing or of salvation . againe , if i be cast off , i must as necessarily not believe and be damned ; in vaine therefore doe i trouble my selfe about meanes , or end ; as much as to say , about labouring and endeavouring for faith , whereby i may avoyd damnation : and judge , i pray , whether there be one hayres breadth of difference , between these argumentations . for like as it is unreasonable to conceive , that man is destined to recover out of sicknesse , but by use of meanes , such as is the use of a physitian ; in like sort , as unreasonable it is to conceive , that god hath destined any man of ripe yeares to be brought to salvation , but by faith in christ ; or that god hath appoynted any man to be damned , but for want of faith , or want of repentance . observe i pray the censure that is passed upon it in cicero , rectè hoc genus interrogationis ignavum atque iners nominatur , quod eadem ratione , omnis è vita tollitur actio . and farther he sheweth how that the same argument , if there were any force in it , might have place , without all mention of fate . licet etiam immutare ( saith he , ) ut fati nomen non adjunges , & eandem tamen teneas sententiam hoc modo , si ex eternitate verum hoc fuit , ex iste morbo convalesces , sive adhibueris medicum sive non , convalesces . itemque si ex aeternitate hoc falsum fuerit , ex isto morbo convalesces , sive adhibuer is medicum , sive non adhibuer is , non convalesces ; deinde caetera . in the next place there it is shewed how chrysippus made answer to this argument . haecratio a crysipo reprehenditur : quaedam enim sunt ( inquit ) in rebus simplicia , quaedam copulata : simplex est moretur eo die socrates , hinc sive quid fecerit , sive non fecerit , finitus est moriendi dies . at si ita fatum sit , nascetur oedipus laio , non poterit dici , sive laius fuerit cum muliere , sive non fuerit . copulata enim res est & confatalis ; sic enim appellat qui a ita fatum sit , & concubiturum cum uxore laium & ex eo oedipum procreaturum . then he illustrateth the absurdity of the deduction in another manner thus , ut si esset dictum , luctabitur olympiis milo , & referret aliquis , ergo sive habuerit adversarium sive non habuerit , luctabitur , erraret . est enim copulatum , luctabitur , quia sine adversario nulla luctatio est . and he concludes all of this kind to be but captious argumentations , and that they admit the same solution . omnes igitur istius generis captiones , eodem modo refelluntur . sive tu medicum adhibueris , sive non adhibueris , captiosum : tam enim fatale est medicum adhibere quam convalescere . haec , ut dixi , confatalia ille appellat . and this manner of solution was so sufficient , that carneades disdained to presse the stoicks with this kind of argumentation , though opposite enough to their opinion , as forthwith cicero expresseth it . carneades hoc totum genus non probabat , & minùs inconsiderate concludi hanc rationem putabat : itaque premebat alio modo , nec ullam adhibebat calumniam . so that he condemned this as a calumnious argumentation against the stoicks , though himselfe were a sore adversary of theirs . and therefore if any christians doe reason thus , either in their hearts to countenance them in prophane courses ; or justify such reasoning , thereby to oppose gods free grace in election , the unreasonablenesse thereof being thus set forth , and acknowledged on both sides by the very light of nature , let them take heed and feare least heathen men rise up in judgement against them . as for tiberius his opinion and perswasion , omnia fato agi , it is apparent what he understood by fatum , for there it is said , that he was mathematicae addictus ; whereby it seems , he went no farther then the starres , for the originall of his fate . but it tiberius was circa deos & religiones negligentior , were the stoicks so too ? i had thought that like as none were more opposite to the epicures then they , so none were more religious and devout among the heathens then they . yet there is no opinion so true or good , but by a prophane heart may be abused . but as for the efficacy of gods will , we are so farre from maintaining , that it takes away either the liberty of mans will , or the contingency of second causes , that we professe with aquinas , that the root of all contingency , is the efficacious will of god ; and with the authors of the articles of the church of ireland , artic. . that god did from all eternity ordaine , whatsoever in time should come to passe ; and yet neither the liberty , nor the contingency of second causes , is thereby destroyed , but established rather . discourse . the fift and last sort of reasons . it is an enimy to true comfort . sect . i. i am come to my last reason against it , drawn from the vncomfortablenesse of it : it is a doctrine full of desperation , both to them that stand , and to them that are fallen , to men out of temptation , and in it . it . leads men into temptation . . leaves men in it . and therefore it is no part of gods word , for that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , good newes to men , a store-house of sweet consolations for them that stand , and such as are fallen . these things are written ( saith the apostle ) rom. . . that by patience and consolation of the scriptures we might have hope ; implying that therefore was the word written , and left to the church , that by the comforts contained in it , those poore soules that look towards heaven , might never want in any changes or chances of this mortall life , a sweet gale of hope to refresh them , and carry on their ship full merrily towards the haven . it leads men into temptation , and into such a one too , as is as sharpe and dangerous as any the tempter hath . the devill can easily perswade any man that makes absolute reprobation a part of his creed , that he is one of those absolute reprobates ; because there are more absolute reprobates ( even an hundred for one , ) then absolute chosen ones : and a man hath a great deale more reason to think that he is one of the most , then one of the least , one of the huge multitude of inevitable castawaies , then one of the little flock , for whom god hath absolutely prepared a kingdome . such a man is not only capable of , but framed and fashioned by his opinion for this suggestion ; which is a very sore one , if we may believe calvin , bucer , and zanchius . calvin tells us , quod nulla tentatione vel gravius , vel periculosius fideles percellit satan , that the devill cannot assault a believer with a temptation more dangerous . and a little after he saith , it is so much the deadlier , by how much commoner it is then any other , rarissimus est cujus non interdum animus hac cogitatione feriatur , unde tibi salus nisi ex dei electione ? electionis autem quae tibi revelatio ? quae si apud quempiam semel invaluit , aut diris tormentis miserum perpetuo exeruciat , aut reddit penitus attonitum . so ordinary is the temptation , that he who is at all times free from it is a rare man ( we are to conceive that he speakes of those that believe absolute reprobation : ) and so dangerous it is , that if it get strength , he which is under it , is either miserably tormented , or mightily astonished . and a little after this , he saith againe . ergo si naufragium timemus , sollicité ab hoc scopulo cavendum , in quem nunquam sine exitio impingitur , he that will not wrack his soule must keep from this rock . bucer also hath a passage like to this , vt caput omnis noxiae tentationis ( saith he ) repellenda est quaestio , sumusnè praedestinati ? nam qui de hoc dubitat , nec vocatumse , nec justificatum esse credere poterit , hoc est , nequit esse christianus : this doubt whether we are predestinated or no ? must be repelled as the head of every pernitious temptation : for he that doubts of this cannot be a christian . praesumendum igitur ut principium fidei nos omnes esse a deo praescitos . every man therefore must presume it as a principle of faith that he is elected . this very speech of bucers zanchy makes use of to the same purpose . we see then by the restimony of these worthy men , that this temptation is very dangerous and ordinary too , to such as think there are absolute reprobates . the truth of both will farther appeare by the example of petrus hosuanus a schoolemaster in hungary , who intending to hang himselfe , signified in a letter which he left in his study for the satisfaction of his friends and countrymen , the cause of it , in that writing he delivered these three things . . that he was of calvins and s. austins opinion , that men are not dealt withall , secundum bona , or mala opera , according to their works good or evill , but that there are occultiores causae more hidden causes of mens eternall condition . . that he was one of that woefull company of absolute castawaies , vas formatum in ignominiam , a vessell prepared to dishonour : and that therefore ( though his life had been none of the worst ) he could not possibly be saved . . that being unable to beare the dreadfull apprehensions of wrath , with which he was affrighted he hanged himselfe . for these are some of his last words there recorded , discedo igitur ad lacus infernales aeternum dedecus patriae meae , deo vos commendo , cujus misericordia mihi negata est . i goe to those infernall lakes , a perpetuall reproach to my country , commending you to god whose mercy is denyed mee . out of this example we may easily collect two things . . that men who think that there are many , whom god hath utterly rejected out of his only will and pleasure , may be easily brought to think by satans suggestion , that they are of that company : and . that this temptation is very dangerous ; i conclude therefore the first part of my last reason , that absolute reprobation leads men into temptation . twisse . consideration . as i remember , when this author first had resort unto some prime stickler for the arminian way to conferre with him there about , it was told me that this authour should alledge , that our doctrine of election was a comfortable doctrine : but then on the other side , it was alledged , that granting that , yet with all it did expose to dessolutenes of life . and therefore i little expect any such argument as this to be proposed , least of all to be ranged amonst the nūber of those that are taken to be of a convincing nature . yet is it the lesse strange , because the apostle telleth us of some , that their course is proficere in pejus , to growe worse and worse . but let us consider , whether he speeds any better in this then in the former . and whereas he saith , it is a doctrine full of desperation both to them that stand , and to them that are fallen . i doe not find that in the accommodation of this argument , he takes any more notice of this distinction throughout this section . the gospell is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the power of god unto salvation ; but to whom ? surely to them that believe . rom. . . and preserve : be faithfull unto death and i will give thee a crowne of life . revel . . . he that believeth in him is not condemned , but he that believeth not is condemned alredy , because he hath not believed in the name of that only begotten sonne of god john . . likewise the comfort which the scripture ministreth to strengthen men with patience to hold out in the promise of everlasting life , though it be long in comming ; as which is the portion only of such as are not weary of well-doing , & faint not for according to that of the apostle , be not weary of well-doing , so in good time yee shall reape if you faint not . gal. . . and as for poore soules , if they be poore in spirit , undoubtedly they are blessed , for theirs is the kingdome of heaven : and whose doctrine , the arminian or ours , doth best maintaine poverty of spirit , i am very willing the different may judge yet of the poore of the world and most dispised , god doth choose to be rich in faith , and ( in this poverty of spirit ) heires of the kingdome which god hath prepared for them that love him . and gods kingdome doth most consist of such poore and dispised creatures . cor : . , . and as for this love of god , we acknowledge that god doth not leave it in his elect to the liberty of their wills , but rather that he workes it in them by the circumcision of the heart : deut : . . the lord thy god will circumcise thine heart and the heart of thy seed to love the lord thy god with all thine heart , and withall thy soule that thou mayst live . and indeed the kingdom is promised to none but such as love him . jac : . . it is a singular consolation that all things work together for the good of man ; but this consolation is applyed only to them that love god , which are called according to his purpose . rom : . . and as for the phrase of looking towards heaven , if thereby be meant their waiting for christs comming , i make no question but such also shall be delivered from the wrath to come . thess : . . it being not possible they should waite for him , unlesse they love his appearing : and the apostle hath assured such that the lord hath a crowne of righteousnesse in store to bestowe upon them tim : . . and i take the like phraise to signify no lesse then the conversion of their hearts to god. jer : . . in those dayes and in that time sayth the lord , the children of israell shall come , they and the children of judah together going , and weeping shall they goe , and seeke the lord their god , v. : they shall aske the way to sion with their faces thither-wards saying , come let us joyne our selves to the lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not be forgotten . now i come to the particular accommodation of this argument against our doctrine . and of this he sayth , that it leads men into temptation , and into such a one as is as sharpe and dangerous as any the tempter hath . now the temptation here spoken of consists in this , that the divell can easily perswade a man that makes absolute reprobation a part of his creed , that he is one of those absolute reprobates because those are more absolute reprobates ( even an hundred for one ) then absolute chosen on s , and a man hath a greatdeale more reason to thinke that he is one of the most then one of the least , one of the huge multitude of inevitable castawayes , then on of that little flock , for whom god hath absolutely prepared a kingdome . and this he pretends to prove out of calvin , bucer , and zanchius ; and this togither with a story related out of georgius major a lutheran concerning petrus glosuanus , a schoole-master in hungary is all his proofe . now in answer hereunto i will proceed by degrees . first he continueth still to serve his turne with the equivocation of this phraise of absolute reprobation without distinguishing : and albeit , it may be gathered by his discourse , that as others doe , so he himselfe considers it not quoad actum volentis , as touching the act of god willing , but quoad res volitas , as touching the things willed . yet he is well pleased to confound the things willed into one , as if they had no difference as touching their absolutenesse , whereas the deniall of grace together with the inflicting of damnation , ( which are the things willed by reprobation which accordingly is distinguished into roprobation from grace , & reprobation from glory , or unto damnation ) are so different , that god doth decree indeed the absolutenesse of the one , but he doth not at all decree the absolutenesse of the other , but meerly the conditionall nature thereof . for grace he denieth and purposeth to deny absolutely . for the apostle plainly professeth , that as god hath mercy on whom he will rom : . . by bringing them unto faith . rom. . . so he hardeneth whom he will by denying faith unto them . but as for glory and damnation , like as god doth not absolutely , so neither did he decree absolutely to deny the one & inflict the other , but only conditionally , to wit , in case of finall perseverance in sin . therefore i have reason to understand him of reprobation from grace , as often as he speaks of absolute reprobation , & cōsequently his meaning must be that god doth not deny grace , but upon condition of mans doing or not doing some thing , so that if either man did something or leave undon some thing , thē god would give him grace , which for want thereof he doth not ; which is as good , as in plain termes to professe , that grace is given according to works . then againe consider , what is that grace , which is given upon condition , and not absolutely by these mens opinion ; is it which thy call universall , and wherein consists the enlivening of mans will , & the enabling of him to will any spirituall good whereto , he shall be excited ? this cannot be given any otherwise then absolutely ; for as much as they make it to be given when a man commeth into the world : and to that purpose doe alleadge that , john . . this is that true light which enlightens every man that commeth into the world . or is it exciting grace , that is not given absolutely ? this cannot be neither ; for this exciting grace is in the ministry of the word . now when the gospell is brought unto a nation , not only the civill sort ; but the most prophane are made partakers of it indifferently ; so that predestination hereunto must be acknowledged even by the arminians themseves to be absolute , as it signifies predestination unto grace prevenient . so that if any predestination unto grace , be not absolute but conditionall , it must needs be predestination unto grace subsequent . as for example , god doth decree to worke in man the act of willing that which is good ; this decree ( say they ) is not absolute but conditionall . now i pray consider what is , or can be the condition hereof , but the act of willing ? and this indeed is their doctrine , as i have seen it under the hand of one of them , namely , that god doth work in us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle modo velimus , as much as to say , if we will make our selves willing to believe , to repent , to doe any good work , then god will make us willing hereunto . this is the issue of the comfortable doctrine of these arminians ; and unlesse we concurre with them in such unsober expressions , we expose our selves to the temptations of satan ( yea the forest temptations if we believe this author ; ) and bereave our soules of all comfort from the scriptures ; as if divine consolations were like to their argumentations , the one as unsober as the other . but let us consider the force of his argument ; if it be so easy a matter for the divell to perswade a man of this , how came it to passe that he did not perswade austin hereof , or prosper , or fulgentius , or any of those ancient writers , in this argument against the pelagians : how is it that he could not performe so easy a matter upon calvin , bucer , beza , zanchy , junius , piscator , or any other of those famous writers in this argument ? how is it that he prevailes over so few in comparison ? nay , consider was there ever any that was perswaded , or can this author produce any evidence to prove , that ever any was perswaded that himselfe was a reprobate upon this ground , to wit , because the number of reprobates are by farre fewer then the number of gods elect . though ( as he speakes ) an hundred for one ? i have read of diverse , collected by goulartius within that century of yeares next preceding his worke , that have cast themselves away in despaire ; yet not all neither upon conceit of their absolute reprobation : and of them that have so conceived , not one doe i find that hath entertained this conceit upon the ground here mentioned by this authour francis spira is a strange president , but the ground of this desperate condition is manifested to have bin this , that he cōceived himself to have sined the sin against the holy ghost . many in our dayes have been knowne to have made themselues a way , and this very yeare , hath brought forth many strange examples in this kind ; but hitherto i have not heard that the ground of this their desperate resolutions was this , that the devill had perswaded them they were absolute reprobates , much lesse that they were perswaded hereunto by so sorry a ground , as that which this authour alledgeth . and as before i signified , all this must proceed of reprobation from grace ; and if god deny grace upon the meere pleasure of his will , and not according to mens workes , the way is open to desperation , and it is an easy matter for the devill to perswade us that we are absolute reprobates ; as this authour with great zeale of his cause , belike upon the singular comfort he finds in his owne way , disputeth . but over whom hath the divell this power ? not over heathens , for they are nothing acquainted with the doctrine of election , and reprobation ; but over christians ; yet consider i pray , who are christians , but such as believe in christ ? and is it an easy matter for the devill to perswade such as believe in christ that they are reprobates ? if so then either as it is reprobation from grace , or as it signifies reprobation from glory , not as it signifies reprobation from grace ; for it is supposed they are in the state of grace , to wit , in the state of faith , which is the prime grace . as for reprobation from glory , we doe not maintaine that god doth absolutely deny that , or that he decreed absolutely to deny that , but only to such as should be found to dye in sinne . againe , as many as maintaine absolute reprobation , they doe withall maintain that faith is a fruit of election and consequently by the genius of their doctrine must conclude that they are elect and not reprobates . againe , they according to their doctrine doe maintaine , that who is once in the state of regeneration connot fall a way totally or finally : therefore they are not so easy to be perswaded that they are reprobates at all , but elect rather . let them , that is our adversaries , looke to this , and that they are not easily perswaded by the devill that they are reprobates , at least , that they neither have or can have any assurance of their election , for as much as they deny faith to be a fruit of election ; and whatsoever their faith be , yet are of opinion that they may totally and finally fall from it , and be damned . farther consider , seeing this authour denies not , but the damnation of every reprobate is decreed by god everlastingly , and that irrevocably , though upon foresight of finall perseverance in sinne . i pray what comfort is it for any man that he is not an absolute reprobate , if so be he is perswaded that he is a reprobate , and from everlasting ordained to condemnation ? now i will prove that it is an easy matter for the devill to perswade any arminian that he is a reprobate , by the same argument which this authour useth against us . for seeing the reprobates are more by farre then the elect , even an hundered for one , and withall that it is an easy thing for the devill to perswade any man that he is rather of that number which is greatest then of that which is least , hence it followes by his owne forme of argumentation that it is an easy matter for the devill to perswade any arminian that he is a reprobate . yet the vanity of this argumentation i have formerly shewed by representing first the vast number of heathens in all ages in comparison unto christians . secondly the variety of sects in christian religion , and that most of them miserably corrupt , together with the vast number of prophane persons on the on side , and of hypocrites on the other , why should any man that is privy to his owne heart , as looking towards heaven , be carried away with so base a pretence , as to conceive himselfe to be a reprobate , especially considering the nature of man to hope the best of his fortunes , and that upon no ground to speake of , as it appeares in those who venture in lotteries . whereas every true christian believing in the christ hath a certaine ground for the assurance of his election by our doctrine . and truly i am verily perswaded the devill is more wise then to think so base an illusion as this , is likely to prevaile ; save that in case this author or his informator doe believe as they pretend , hereupon he may take advantage to work upon them according to their own rules to perswade them thereby , that they are reprobates : and 'till we find he hath prevailed so with them , we have no reason to conceive that it is an easy matter for him to perswade us that we are absolute reprobates ; no nor then neither considering that we make no such rules , but rather conceive them to be the fancies of crackt or crazed braines . and the devill had need be more wise then so , if he practice to prevaile with us , which undoubtedly , so long as god be pleased by his grace to keepe us in our right wits , he never shall : certainly if they desire to bring this rule into our faith , they must first manifest that the devill hath so prevailed with them to make them conceive themselues to be reprobates ; otherwise it cannot be they should conceive so easy a matter for the devill to perswade any of us upon so sorry a ground as this , that we are absolute reprobates . as for them that are fallen , ( to prosecute that distinction this authour gives according to the parts of it , which the authour himselfe doth not ) christians fallen may be understood two manner of wayes , either as fallen from the state of grace , or as fallen only into sinne , but still standing in the state of grace . as touching the first we acknowledge no such falling away , st john professing of certaine apostates saying , they went out from us , but they were not of us ; for had they beene of us , they had continued with us . as for such as fall into sinne , we that maintaine absolute election and reprobation , doe withall maintaine with king james in the conference at hampton court , that all such shall arise againe by repentance . and therfore there is no reason we should conceive , upon the committing of any such sinne , that we are reprobates ; least of all upon so base grounds as here are specified by this authour . now i come to his proofe of this by his three testimonies . . the first whereof is the testimony of calvin : whereto i answer first in generall , that not one of these authours here mentioned take any notice of the ground whereupon this authour builds , namely , of the paucity of the elect in comparison to reprobates , therehence to conclude , that it is an easy matter for the devill to perswade them that they are reprobates , if they should have beene sure to have received so much from the pen of this authour . more particularly i acknowledge the words of calvin here alledged , namely , that the devill doth not assault the believer with a temptation more dangerous : but why doth not this authour goe on to tell , what the temptation is which as it were in a breath calvin sets downe thus , quam dum ipsos suae electionis dubitatione inquietans , simul prava ejus extra viam inquirendae cupitate solicitat . it consists of two parts . the first is disquieting of them with doubting of their election . the second is , his solliciting of them with an ill desire of inquiring about it , after a wrong way . both these calvin so compounds , as to make up but one tentation : in the next place , calvin shewes what it is for a man to inquire of his election a wrong way . extra viam inquirere voco , ubi in abditos divinae sapientiae recessus perrumpere homuncio conatur , & quo intelligat quid de se sit constitutum apud dei tribunal , ad supremam usque aeternitatem penetrare . to inquire after it out of the way , is , when a vile man endeavoureth to breake into the secrets of divine wisdome , and to pierce into the highest eternity , to know what god hath ordained of him there . this he sayeth is for a man to cast himselfe into a deep , to be swallowed up of a bottomlesse gulfe , and to throw himselfe into innumerable snares , such as he can never wind himselfe out off . and to this he sayeth we are very prone ; and hereupon comes in the next sentence alledged by this authour , rarissimus enim est few there be whose minds are not taken up with this contemplation , whence doth salvation come unto thee , but from gods election ? now what revelation hast thou of thine election ? and if these thoughts doe once take hold of a man , either in cruell manner it torments miserable man continually , or makes him altogether stand astonished . all this is delivered by calvin of them who enquire about their election a wrong way ; the very same way being condemned also by king james in the conference at hampton court , or that which he there delivereth much at one . and all this , this authour very judiciously conceales , thinking such a dog-trick well becomes his free will , and his grace also . but then calvin discovereth also another way , in ea lustranda , that is , in discovering a mans election ; and such as wherein , tuta est pacata , addo etiam jucunda , navigatio a man may saile safely , peaceably , and sweetly : and that they who search after their election in a due order , as it is contained in gods word , they are like to reape thence singular consolation , eximium inde referent consolationis fructtum . then he shewes what this way is , and that we must beginne from our vocation ( to wit , unto faith and unto repentance ) and thence ascend to our election , in this way he professeth no uncomfortable condition , but most comfortable is likely to accrue unto him . the wrong way he warnes us to avoyd carefully : but withall professeth , that no rocke at all is likely to be met withall in this right way . by this i desire every indifferent person will judge aright of this authours carriage . . the next is bucer in . ad rom : q : de praedest : now bucers discourse , as it is related by this authour himselfe appeares to tend to no other end but this , that christians should not disquiet themselues with doubting , whether they are predestinate or no , but rather without doubt perswade themselues that they are of the number of those whom god hath predestinate . and by this i perceive what is his meaning here in , which formerly i understood not , when this of bucer was alleadged by this authour to an other purpose . and his meaning seemes to be this , whosoever is called and believes in christ , ought to believe that he is predestinate . for indeed faith in his opinion is the fruit of our election , and from the like in the thessal : paul was perswaded of their election thess : . , . remembring the worke of your faith and labour of your love , knowing that you are elected of god. now shall others hereby be drawne to be confident of our election , and shall not we our selves who alone are privy to the secret passages of our hearts , when others are not . now i pray consider , whether this be so much as to intimate that it is a farre easier matter for a man to be perswaded that he is a reprobate , then that he is of the number of gods elect . . by this i perceive the meaning of zanchy also , in saying , that every christian is bound to believe that he is elect : let us in the name of god examine our faith whether it be true faith or no ; but surely so farre as we are perswaded of the truth of our faith , so farre have we no cause to doubt of our election . but this of zanchius is no more to the purpose , whereunto this authour alleadgeth it , than that of bucers . . in the last place , i come to the relation of georgius major of a certaine schoole-master in hungary , petrus hosuanus by name , for so i find him called in dietricus , though this authour calls him ilosuanus , mistaking belike the copy which he transcribed . now dietricus relates it as out of georgius major as this author doth . but i wonder not a little that osiander in his last century makes no mention of it , that i can find , though i have searched after it , as the woman in the gospell did after her lost groat : whether he gave any credit to georgius major his relation , i know not ; or whether any thing came to his knowledge afterwards , as touching the unfaithfullnesse thereof . but take we it as it lyes in this authours relation . . that he professed himselfe of calvins and austins opinion : i hope this makes no more against calvin and us , then it doth against austin and all those that tooke part with him , against the pelagians in his dayes , and the remnants of them afterwards . but if his opinion was , that men are not dealt withall secundum bona or mala opera , but that there are occultiores causae of mens eternall conditions , will any sober arminian impute this unto us ? doe we say that god damnes any man but for sinne , or that god rewards any man of ripe yeares with salvation but by way of reward , of theire faith repentance and good-workes ? when the remonstrants at the hague conference proposed their doctrine of predestination and reprobation , after this manner , namely , that god from eternity did ordaine to save believers and to damne unbelievers , ( to this effect ) , did any of the contra-remonstrants , or any of the synod of dort except against the truth of this ? but whereas the remonstrants and arminians did acknowledge this to be the whole decree of predestination and reprobation : against this exception was tooke both in the hague conference , and in the synod of dort , and theses also by divers forraine divines laid downe against it , & particularly by our brittayne divines amongst others ; all of them maintaining that there was an other decree concerning the giving of the grace of regeneration , of the grace of faith and repentance unto some , and denying it unto others . and this decree , we willingly maintain , proceeds not , no not in the execution thereof , according to mens workes good or evill , whatsoever be the end of any that maintaine it . the contrary , namely , that grace is given according unto workes , being a doctrine generally condemned in the church from the yeare , at that time it was condemned in the synod of palestine , and pelagius himselfe driven to subcribe unto it , otherwise himself had been anathematized . but this authour delivers it as the opinion of hosuanus concerning mens eternall conditions , whereby i take to be meant salvation and damnation . and indeed as here the doctrine is expressed , it is more agreable with the doctrine of the predestinarians , as sigebert relates it , then with the doctrine either of austin or calvin : and the same sigebert writes not that it was austins doctrine , but that it rose out of the misunderstanding of austins writings : yet i confesse that tyro prosper before sigebert spares not to professe , of that predestinarian hereby , that it rose from austin ; as dr vsher observeth . but this was a meere practice of the semi-pelagians , corrupting the doctrine of austin , the better to expose it to obloquy and reproach . . as for the second , that he was one of the woefull company of absolute castawayes . herein the author of this discourse accomodates himselfe to his own stage ; throughout dietricus his relation , i find no mention of any such distinction as of reprobates and absolute reprobates , but an acknowledgement , certum esse numerum salvandorum , & praedestinatorum vel ad vitam , vel ad mortem ; and of himselfe , that he was ex numero damnatorum , but i doe not find the word absolute throughout . that his life was none of the worst , himselfe was no competent judge : yet i confesse there are degrees of prophanenesse and hypocrisy , and the very reprobates are not equall in sinne . and withall a morall life is esteemed in the world in respect of their conversation towards men ; but we know that to deny gods truth , and to oppose it against the light of conscience , is of an higher nature in the sight of god , and usually is of more fearfull consequence . of francis spira i find no complaints made in respect of his morality towards men , but he laid unto his own charge , that he had sinned against the holy ghost . yet neither this hosuanus , nor spira doe i find to have broken forth into any blasphemy against gods justice in reprobating them . nay , this latter was heard strangely to discourse of the justice of god , without any murmuring against his power . and in our time we have heard of strange examples , of some that have gone soberly on to the destroying of themselves , in a very devout acknowledgement of gods justice in giving them over . . as touching the dreadfull apprehensions of gods wrath , i nothing doubt , but when god gives men over to the power of satan , they may be so improved by him , as to make a man weary of his life , though i find not this specified in dietricus , who yet relates this story out of georgius major . but i read the like in goulartius his collections of a desperate man in his time dying , that said ( among many other horrible speeches ) that he wished to be already in hell. and being demanded the cause of so wicked a desire : for that ( said he ) the apprehension of torments which doe attend me , cause me presently to feele a double hell ; when i shall feele it at the full , i shall not exspect it any more . but no mention throughout of any opinion of his concerning divine reprobation that moved him thereunto . the words here alleadged , discedo ad lacus infernales , deo vos commendo , cujus misericordia mihi negata est . these , i say , and the matter of these alone , i find in dietericus his relation out of georgius major on tym. c. . p. . . it runs thus . ait in hungaria & multis aliis locis notissimum esse de homine quodam calviniano , petro hosuano rectore scholae gengerinae , qui ex desperatione sibi ipsi laqueo injecto vitam finivit , anno . die . julii ; relicto manuscripto , in quo ( praeter alia ) haec exstitere . o me infaelicissimum omnium , quia satius fuisset me nunquam natum . verum est certum esse numerum salvandorum ; hoc ex me , sed quid ad me ? hoc ità necessariò fieri debuit . nemo igitur argumentetur , deus omnes vocat ; longe secùs se res habet . calvini sententiam de certo praedestinatorum numero , item augustini , quisque teneat . de me intelligo quemlibet ante uterum matris pradestinatum , vel ad vitam , vel ad mortem , quod nunquam quisquam nisi in horâ mortis cognoscere potest . ego sum ex numero damnatorum , ergo deo nunquam asscribi possum . hoc certo credatis rectum esse quod paulus rom. . scribit . misereor cujus misereor . discedo ad lacus infernales . deo vos commendo , cujus misericordia mihi negata est . et addit major haec verba , hic est fructus perversae doctrinae de praedestinatione hominum . concerning which relation give me leave to observe somewhat . . here is no such thing as this author relates , that hosuanus should say that man by calvin and austins opinion , is not dealt withall , secundum bona or mala opera , ( and indeed this deciphering out of austins and calvins opinion , is notoriously untrue ; ) neither as touching occultiores causae , of mens eternall conditions , as indeed it is apparent , that in the way of a cause meritorious , there is no other cause of damnation then sinne , and in the way of a disposing cause no other cause of salvation then faith , repentance , and good workes ; and as touching the efficient cause of both , none is or can be the cause thereof but god. but as touching the cause why god gives grace to one , and denyes it to another , wee willingly confesse there is no cause thereof , but the meere good pleasure of god. in like sort , of absolute cast-awayes here is no mention , no nor of vas formatum ad ignominiam , nor any such saying of himselfe , that he was none of the worst . . here is no mention made of the cause moving him hereunto , as this author pretends , but only 't is said , that it proceeded of desperation . and though major adds as a coronis his censure , that , hic est fructus perversae doctrinae de praedestinatione hominum ; yet i hope his censure is no oracle with us , no nor with lutherans neither ; for i find him branded by osiander in his ecclesiasticall history . and though he were of austins and calvins opinion in this poynt of predestination , and did despaire , yet it followes not , that this doctrine moved him to despaire . suppose the conceit of being a reprobate moved him hereunto ; might it not move him hereunto according to the arminian tenet , as well , and according to any tenet , provided they doe not believe that god hath as yet decreed nothing , or if he hath , that his decrees may be recalled ? and then again by our doctrine of predestination it cannot be concluded of any man that he is a reprobate while he lives . nay , this seems contrary to his own opinion , which was this , that no man can know whether he be predestinate to life or death , till the houre of his death ; and his death was not brought upon him , but wrought by him . and as it was in his power not to have killed himselfe , so was it in his power not to believe that he was a reprobate by this opinion of his . then again , what moved him to conceive that he was a reprobate , is concealed all along . now the conscience of sinne committed against the holy ghost , may make a man conceive he is a reprobate , of what opinion so ever he be concerning reprobation . and as i take it , that famous doctor of germany , whom goulartius mentioneth remaining then at hall in swabe , was no calvinist ; of whom he reports out of the history of germany , that having oftentimes turned his conscience , some times toward god , some times toward the world , having inclined in the end to the worser part , said and confest publiquely , that he was undone , and fell so deepe into despaire , as he could neither receive , nor take any comfort or consolation , so as in this miserable and wretched estate of his soule , he slew himselfe most miserably . it was not the doctrine of predestination or reprobation brought him unto this . and though a man hath not sinned against the holy ghost , yet a conceit of such a sinne may drive a man unto this ; or of blasphemies in an inferior degree , when god gives a man over unto the power of satan , as gaulartius makes mention by his own experience of another desperate man , whom he had heard , who being exhorted to turne from the too vehement apprehension of gods justice unto his mercy , which was open unto him : he answered very coldly , you say true , god is god , but of his children , not for me , his mercy is certain for his elect , but i am a reprobate , a vessell of wrath and cursing , and i doe already feele the torments of hell : when they did exhort him to call god his father , and jesus christ his sonne , my mouth ( saith he ) doth speake it , but my heart hath horrour of it , i believe that he is the father of others , but not of mee : when they did lay before him that he had known god , heard his word , and received his sacrament ; yea but ( he added ) i was an hypocrite , and guilty of many blasphemies against god ; and then he returned to his ordinary discourses ; i am a vessell prepared to wrath and damnation , i am damned , i burne . the same goulartius reports out of the history of the times of a learned man at lovaine , called master gerlach , who had profited so well in his studies , as he was one of the first amongst the learned of that time . and that being touched with a grievous sicknesse , he sighed continually ; and feeling himselfe to draw neer his end , he began to discover the ground of his sighes , speaking such fearfull words , as desperate men are accustomed to utter ; crying out and lamenting that he had lived very wickedly , and that he could not endure the judgement of god , for that he knew his sinnes were so great , as he should never obtain pardon , so as in this distresse he dyed , oppressed with grievous and horrible despaire . what this wickednesse of his was in speciall it seems he concealed ; it might be horrible enough , though done in secret , yet no just cause of despaire , unlesse it were the sinne against the holy ghost . the like is recorded of m. iames latomus one of the chiefe doctors of the university of lovaine , being one day out of countenance in a sermon before the emperour charles the fift , returning ashamed and confounded from brussells to lovaine , and did so apprehend the dishonour , that he fell suddainly into despaire , whereof he gave many testimonies in publique ; the which did move his friends to keepe him close in his house , from that time unto his last gasp . poore latomus had no other speech then that he was rejected of god , that he was damned , and that he hoped for no mercy nor salvation , as having malitiously made warre against the grace and truth of god. he dyed in this despaire , neither was it possible for any friends , or physitians to make him change his opinion . . if this story of hosuanus be a truth , i like his condition the worse for not giving any reason moving him to this desperation , and making him to conceive that he was a castaway . for it is apparent that by our doctrine the way is open , ( namely by faith in christ ) to be perswaded that he is an elect of god , but no way open to conceive that he is a reprobate . not any sinne before faith , for faith in christ gives sufficient assurance of the pardon of all former sinnes , nor yet want of faith , for though a man want faith to day , yet he may enjoy it to morrow , as palmer told the sheriffe that executed him , saying , as it hath pleased god to call me to day , so it may please him to call you to morrow . least of all was the consideration of the great number of reprobates in comparison with the small number of gods elect , likely to be the cause thereof ; neither is any such mentioned either of hosuanus or of spira , or of latomus , or of krans , or of any other that ever i heard or read , which is sufficient to discredit this authors discourse in this place . . lastly , observe the absurdity of this speech , commendo vos deo , cujus misericordia mihi negata est : though he had no heart to commend himselfe to gods mercy , yet he takes heart to commend others thereunto , as if god though he would shew no mercy to him , yet for his sake , and his prayers , and commendation sake , he would shew mercy unto others . i find a story in osiander of one adamus neuserus , delivered with a farre better grace to discredit calvins doctrine , not in poynt of predestination , but as touching the person of christ , in opposition to the ubiquitary chimera of the lutherans , as sir edwin sands calls it ; and it is this , neuserus pastor heilderbergensis ex calvinista arrianus , ex arriano mahumetanus , & eques turcici imperatoris factus , & constantinopoli circumcisus est , inque des peratione turcica ad inferos descendit . ante mortem suam d. stephano gerlachio referens , qua occasione in arrianismum & turcismum incidisset , dixit , qui vult cavere arrianismum caveat calvinismum . yet dietericus alleadgeth the former story of hosuanus , only to requite lampadius , who gave instance of the uncomfortable ends of certain lutherans , as also to shew that personall faults or unhappinesses , must not prejudice the truth of any cause , albeit it be maintained by them . i could in some part requite georgius major with a saying of augustus the elector of saxony , concerning his lutherans , which i find in melchior adamus in vita penceri . this pencer had been imprisoned by the duke of saxony , and in that state had continued many yeares , yet at length being set free by the mediation of the prince of anhalt . when the duke found that he continued still in the same faith for which he was imprisoned , laudo ( quoth the duke ) doctorem pencerum , facit quod viro bono dignum est , perseverat in sua confessione firmiter & constanter . ego quid credam , & in quo acquiescam incertus sum prorsus , quod deus novit . de die enim in diem aliquid novi mei sacerdotes cudunt , & proferunt , & ex uno me errore in alterum pelliciunt , atque implicant dubitationibus perpetuis . one story more ; for i am compelled unto it by the genius of this adversary . the day before i entred upon this section , a gentleman of good quality coming to this towne , sent unto me , desiring to enjoy my company with him at his inne . i had heard well of him before , both of his service in the low countries , and at the isle of ree . amongst other things , he fell upon discourse of the good discipline in the low countries , especially as touching the preparation of the people to the sacrament of the lords supper , both by preparatory sermons before the day comes , as also by going to their houses , to know of their purpose to come to the lords table ; and whether any difference between them and their neighbours were any impediment thereunto . in this course of theirs one coming to a certain house , the master whereof and his wife were turned arminians , and making the usuall motion unto the wife ( for her husband was not within ) she beganne to raile upon him , and to defye him , and to professe her disdaine to come to their communion at all . the minister used not many words , but as soone as he heard whereto her speech tended , departed ; not long after the master of the house coming home , and hearing the minister had been there , and where abouts he beganne to raile much more then his wife , disdaining and indignating that the minister should come unto him about such a businesse , and calling him black devill , with protestation that if he had been at home when the other came , he would have had his bloud or trodden out his guts . that night this arminian bedlem fell sick , and in his weaknesse vomited bloud , which not only came out of his mouth , but out of his nose , eyes and eares , as it is said . hereupon he sent for the minister , who came unto him , when he came he confessed his fault and fury against him , beseeching him to pardon him , the minister exhorted him to make his peace with god , for as for himselfe he had not offended him , and gave him the best comfort he could ; never the lesse the fellow dyed . the gentleman , that made this relation to my selfe and an other with me , upon the noyse of so strange a buisinesse , thought good to enquire of the truth ; and comming to leyden ( there was this tragedy acted ) he went to his painter , whom he meant to employ in drawing his picture , and asked him about the matter : this painter was also become an arminian , and told him , that indeed the man had raved against the minister in the street , but the manner of his death was nothing so as he had heard . after this , the same gentleman passing over from flaunders side unto dort ; as he was in the boat , asked the boatman of the truth of this report . this boatman also was an arminian , and he tells him it was nothing so , but that the man dyed by accident , as any other man might ; an other in the boat hearing this , turnes to the gentleman , saying , captaine , believe him not , for the story you have heard is a certaine truth , but this rogue ( sayeth he poynting to the boat-man ) is an arminian , and these arminians are like the egyptians , let god shew never so many miracles and judgements upon them , yet they will not believe ; i protest i doe nothing affect them , nor please my selfe in these and such like relations , but i am driven to it , to requite the adversary , who helpes out his hungry discourse with such tales as these . discourse . sect . ii. it leaves men in temptation : and this it doth two waies , first by making the tempted uncapable of true comfort . . by making ministers unable to give true comfort . first it maketh the tempted uncapable of true comfort ; like a gorgons head , it doth so trouble their fancies , and amaze them , especially in their paroxysmes and fits , that the strongest arguments of comfort , applyed with as much art and cunning as can be , will not fasten upon them . with david they say in their feare , that all men are lyars , namely , all such as come to comfort them in their temptation : and the reason is , because it is an opinion incompatible with any word of comfort , that can be ministred to the distressed soule in this temptation . gods love to mankind , christs death for all mankind , and the calling of poore sinners without exception to repentance or salvation , with all other grounds of consolation . the tempted will easily elude with the grounds of his opinion : which that we may the better see , let us imagine that we heare a minister and a tempted soule , reasoning in this or the like manner . tempted . woe is me ; i am a castaway : i am absolutely rejected from grace and glory . minister . discourage not thy selfe thou poore afflicted soule ; god hath not cast thee off . for he hateth nothing that he hath made ; but bears a love to all men , and to thee amongst the rest . tempted . god hateth no man as he is his creature , but he hateth a great many as they are involv'd in the first transgression , and become guilty of adams sinne . and god hath a two-fold love , ( as i have learned , ) a generall love , which puts forth it selfe in outward and temporall blessings only , and with this he loved all men : and a speciall love , by which he provideth everlasting life for men , and with this he loves only a very few , which out of his alone will and pleasure he singled from the rest . under this generall love am i , not the speciall . minister . god so loves all men , as that he desires their eternall good , for the apostle saith , he would have all to be saved , and he would have no man perish , nor thee in particular . tempted . all , is taken two waies : for all sorts and conditions of men , high and low , rich and poore , bond and free , jew and gentile ; and for all particular men in those severall sorts and conditions . god would have all sorts of men to be saved , but not all particular men of these sorts ; some of my country , and my calling , &c. but not all ; or mee in particular . or if it be true that god would have all particular men to be saved ; yet he wills it only with a revealed will , not with a secret will , for with that he will have a great company to be damned absolutely . under this revealed will am i , not the secret . minister . christ came into the world to seeke and to save what was lost , and is a propitiation not for our sinnes only , ( idest ) the sinnes of a few particular men , or the sinnes of all sorts of men , but for the sinnes of the whole world ; therefore he came to save thee , for thou wast lost , and to be a propitiation for thy sinnes , for thou art part of the whole world . tempted . the world , as i have heard , is taken two waies in scripture ; largely for all mankind , and strictly in a more restrained signification , for the elect , or for believers : or if it be true that he dyed for all mankind , yet he dyed for them but after a sort , he dyed for them all dignitate pretii , he did enough to have redeemed all , if god would have had it so : but he did not dye for all voluntate propositi , god never intended that he should shed his bloud for all , and every man ; but for a few select ones only , with whom it is my lot not to be numbred . minister . god hath founded an universali covenant with men , upon the blood of christ thy mediator , and therefore he intended it should be shed for all men universally . he hath made a promise of salvation to every one that will believe , and excludes none , that doe not exclude themselves . tempted . god purposed his sonne should dye for all men , and that in his name an offer of remission of sinnes and salvation should be made to every one but yet upon this condition , that they will doe that which he meanes the greatest part of them shall never doe , ( idest ) repent and believe , nor i among the rest . minister . god hath a true meaning that all men who are called , should repent and believe ; that so they might be saved : as he would have all to be saved , so to come to the knowledge of the truth ; and as he would have no man to perish , so he would have all men to repent ; and therefore he calls them in the preaching of the word to the one , as well as to the other . tempted . god hath a double call ; an outward call by the preaching of the word , an inward call by the irresistible work of the spirit in mens hearts . the outward call is a part of gods outward will , with that he calls every man to believe ; the inward and effectuall call is a part of his secret will , and with that he doth not call every man to believe , but a very few only whom he hath infallibly and inevitably ordained to eternall life . and therefore by the outward will , which i enjoy among many others , i cannot be assured of gods good will and meaning that i shall believe , repent , and be saved . by this we may see , that no sound comfort can be fastned upon a poore soule , rooted in this opinion , when he lyes under this horrible temptation ; the example of francis spira an italian lawyer , will give some farther light and proofe to this . this spira about the yeare , against his knowledge and conscience did openly abjure his religion , and subscribe to popery ; that thereby he might preserve his life , and goods , and liberty . not long after he fell into a deep distresse of conscience out of which he could never wrestle , but ended his woefull daies in despaire . to comfort him came many divines of worth and note ; but against all the comforts that they applyed unto him , he opposed two things especially . . the greatnesse of his sinne : it was a sinne of a deep dye , commited with many urging and aggravating circumstances , and therefore could not be forgiven . this argument they quickly took from him , and convinced him by the example of peter , that there was nothing in his sinne , that could make it irremissible . peter that committed the same sinne , and with more odious circumstances , repented and was pardoned , and so ( no doubt ) might he . : he opposed his absolute reprobation ; and with that he put off all their comforts . peter ( saith he ) repented and was pardoned indeed , because he was elected : as for me i was utterly rejected before i was borne ; and therefore i cannot possibly repent , or be saved . if any man be elected he shall be saved , though he have committed sinnes , for number many , and haynous in degree : but if he be ( ex repudiatis ) one of the castawaies , necessario condemnabitur : though his sinnes be small and sew . nihil interest , an multa , an pauca , an magna , an parva sint , quando nec dei misericordia , nec sanguis christi quicquam ad eos pertinet . a reprobate must be damned , be his sinnes many or few , great or small ; because gods mercy , and christs merits belong not to him . in this very story , ( recorded by coelius secundus , and calvin , with some others who lived at that time , and wrote of it to their friends ; ) as in a glasse we may see the disconsolate condition of a poore soule , that is strongly conceited , that the greatest part of the world , are absolute reprobates , and that he is one of them ; he sticketh so fast in the mire and clay , that he can very hardly be drawne out . twisse . consideration . this section i may fitly divide into two parts . the first whereof is a pretty comedy . the second a tragedy . the first is practised by this authour in a dialogue , shaped by himselfe and accordingly accomodated to his owne stage , as an enterlude of his owne making . the tragedy is related only of francis spira ; and i willingly confesse , it is the strangest that ever , i heard or read , of a man going on soberly to the utter undoing of himselfe both body and soule . but the relation of it is most hungryly performed by this authour as if his care were only to serve his owne turne , and then cares not what becomes of the maine condition of the story , which indeed is most remarkable : i have but touched upon it in former passages , but here i shall insist upon it more at large ; and the rather , because it is here proposed not more unfaithfully then impiously , to deface or out-face the precious truth of god concerning his absolutenesse in making whom he will a vessell of wrath . but first i must dispatch my answer to the antegredients of those two parts . and let it be remembred what formerly i have delivered , that still he confounds reprobation from grace , with reprobation from glory ; as if we maintained the absolutenesse of the one , as well as we do maintain the absolutenesse of the other ; which is most untrue . for albeit , we maintaine that god hath decreed absolutely to bestow grace upon some , ( which are gods elect , ) and absolutely to deny grace unto others , ( whom we account reprobates here upon , ) not conditionally ; for if grace were ordayned to be bestowed conditionally , to wit , upon condition of some worke performed by man ; then should grace be bestowed according unto workes , which in the phrase of the ancients is all one , with saying , that grace is bestowed according unto merits . and this was condemned above yeares agoe in the synod of palestine , & pelagius driven to subscribe unto it , lest otherwise himselfe had bin excommunicated . but we , doe not maintain that god hath ordayned that damnation shall be absolutely inflicted on any but only conditionally , to wit , in case they dye in sin . yet it became this authors wisdom to confound them , least distinguishing them as they ought to be distinguished , & carrying himselfe fairly in opposing the absolutenes of reprobation there alone , where alone it is maintained by his adversaries , to wit , in the particular of reprobation from grace , he should at first dash manifest himselfe to maintain , that grace is bestowed not according to the good pleasure of god , but according to the workes of men ; and that upon this ground it is , that he buildeth the comfortable condition of his doctrine , concerning predestination , which indeed makes no difference in gods proceedings between the elect and reprobate , but respects them all alike ; for their power to believe and repent is their grace universall , which they say is given to all alike . so exciting grace in the ministry of the word is equally made to all that heare it , whether elect or reprobate . and these are the kinds of grace prevenient : then as for grace subsequent , that consists only in gods concurrence unto the act of faith and repentance which depends meerely upon mans will ( in their opinion ) and god is as ready to concurre to the working of it as well in one as in another , in case man will. on the other side it would appeare that our doctrine is censured as uncomfortable , only because it teacheth man for the obtaining of true comfort to depend meerely upon the grace of god , and not upon his owne free-will . againe , observe how that like as gregory observes that the same spirit of antichrist might be found in them that are farre distant in time , so an arminian spirit savoreth the same things one with an other , and perhaps at unawars , though they in whom it is found be much distant in place . vossius in his last booke of his history of the pelagian heresy sayth , that our divines doe aleadge that place of s t paul against their adversaries in the poynt of predestination , as the head of medusa ; a place indeed that clearely justifies gods absolutenesse both in predestination and reprobation : and this authour sayeth that our doctrine on the same poynt is like to gorgons head : now the learned well know that gorgon and medusas head have no difference . now whether our doctrine be so uncomfortable as this authour objects , it will appeare when we come to examine the paroxysme and fit of temptation , especially the kind of it being such , as this authour out of his fruitfull invention hath made choyce of to represent , as able to elude the strongest arguments of comfort , and they applyed with as much art and cunning as canne be ; supposing that of this art and cunning also , he hath given plentifull testimony in the succeeding dialogue ; which is a very remarkeable passage of this authours sufficiency , especially comming out of his owne mouth ; of the integrity whereof there seemes no cause to doubt , considering that arminian ingenuity and modesty whereunto he hath lately arrived . he further addes as much weight to his former assertions as words can , which though they be but wind , yet with some , who camelion like live by the ayre , may prove very weighty , saying , that this doctrine of ours is incompatable with any word of comfort ( which is very much , though a word and any word be very little ) that can be ministred to a distressed soule in this temptation . now it is very likely that in his dialogue following he brings in as potent arguments of consolation , as our doctrine will afford . the heads or placss of consolation he reckons up , gods love to mankind , christs death for all mankind , and the calling of poore sinners without exception to repentance and salvation with all other grounds of comfort , and all arguments ( he sayeth ) drawne from hence our opinion will elude and preclude all consolation from the distressed soule . but give me leave to make a faire motion as touching the speciall heades of consolation here particulated . if it shall be found that these heads of consolation doe admit a double sense , one of the arminian making , an other of our interpreting ; if consolations drawne therefrom in an arminian sence be eluded by our tenet , will any disparagement thereby arise to our tenet , provided we find store of consolatiō from them taken in our sense , especially being ready to admit any indifferent tryal concerning the sense thereof , whether theirs or ours prove most agreeable to the word of god ; but ecce rhodus , ecce saltus , we are come to the dialogue it selfe , where he undertakes to make good , that which he saith and here begins the enterlude . tempted . woe is me ; i am a castaway ; i am utterly rejected from grace and glory . consideration . let me take liberty to set down what i should think fit to answer unto such a complaint , now my answer is this , who hath revealed this unto thee ? art thou privy councellour to the almighty ? we are taught that secret things belong to the lord our god , but the things revealed are for us and for our children to doe them . now where , and when , and how hath god revealed this his counsell unto thee , namely , concerning thy rejection from grace , & glory ? we know no other revelations divine then are contayned in his word : now hath god in his word revealed unto thee more then unto me that thou art a reprobate . the word saith unto thee , if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the lord jesus : and believe in thy heart that god raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved , rom : . . now how canst thou make it appeare that this belongs lesse unto thee then to any martyr that ever was content to lay downe his life for christ ? wilt thou say , thy sinnes make thee to conceive so : i answer , are thy sinnes greater then were the sinnes of manasses , who made his sonnes passe through the fire to molech , gave himselfe to witchcraft and sorcery , and filled jerusalem with bloud from corner to corner ? if his sinns were not sufficient to conclude that he was a reprobate , why should thy sins be thought sufficient to conclude that thou art a cast-away ? are thy sinnes greater then sauls were , who was a blasphemer , a persecutor of the saints of god from citty to citty ; yet was he received unto mercy . wilt thou say , thy sinnes have been committed since thy calling ? yet are they greater then was the sinne of peter , in denying christ his master , with execrations and oathes ? and these sinns were committed not only after his calling ; but even within his masters hearing too . yet he went out and wept bitterly . and christ as soone as he was risen , sent word of his resurrection by name to peter to comfort him . nay hath not god taught us in his word , that the bloud of jesus christ cleanseth us from all sinne , john. . ? and how canst thou make it appeare , that any one that ever was or is , hath greater interest therein then thy selfe ? wilt thou say this remedy belongs unto none , but such as believe and repent ; but i doe not . i answere , in like sort there was a time when paul believed not , and when every one believed not ; yet at length they believed , and so maist thou : wilt thou say , but i cannot believe and repent ? i answer , this is the condition of all till god takes away the stony heart out of their bowells , and gives them a heart of flesh , and puts his owne spirit within them ; wilt thou say god gives grace to others , but not to thee ? i answer , there was a time when god had not mercy on them , at length an houre came wherin he called them : so an houre may come wherin he may call thee . and thou hast no more cause to conclude that he hath rejected thee , then every child of god had before his calling , that god had rejected him : without grace neither thou canst , nor they could believe ; but grace can bring all to faith and repentance ; and thou hast no more cause to think that god will not bring thee to faith , then any elect had , before his calling , to think that god would not bring him to faith . now seeing this grace is given in the word , doe thou wait upon god in his owne ordinance , ( which any naturall man hath power to doe ; as namely , to goe heare a sermon ) thou knowest not how it may worke upon thee , yea though thou commest thither with a wicked mind . for we read of some that comming to take christ were taken by him . and father latimer taking notice of some that come to church to take a nap , yet never the lesse ( saith he ) let them come , they may be taken napping . minister . discourage not thy selfe thou poore afflicted soule , god hath not cast thee off , for he hateth nothing that he hath made , but bears a love to all men , and to thee amongst the rest . consideration . and not only poore , but miserable also is that afflicted soule that hath no better comforter ; whether we consider the nature of the consolation , or the warrant of it . for first , hath not god made froggs , and toades , and devills , as well as man ; and hath an arminian that boasts so much of strongest arguments of comfort , no better comfort to an afflicted soule , then that she is gods creature , which is the condition of a frogge , and a divill , and a damned spirit . . then as touching the warrant of it ; is the booke of wisdome the best store-house of comfort for an afflicted soule , a booke writen by philo the jew that living after christs passion , resurrection and ascention , yet never believed in him . againe speake out and tell us what is the fruit of that love , which god beares to all men ; hath he ordained to give salvation unto all , & to this afflicted soule in particular ? if he hath not , but damnation rather unto some , and particularly to this soule ; ( for upon what ground darest thou say , or canst assure he hath not : ) art not thou as miserable a comforter to her , as ever jobs friends were to him ? or hath god ordained to give all men the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance ; if so , then either absolutely or conditionally ; if absolutely , then all must be regenerate , all must believe and repent . if conditionally , speake it out , and let thy patient know what condition that is , on performance whereof by man , god will give him faith ; say what thou wilt , the comfortable issue shall be this , that grace is given according to workes ; and this indeed is the only arminian consolation . tempted . . god hateth no man as he is his creature , but he hates a great many as they are involved in the first transgression , and become guilty of adams sinne . consideration . pooresoule , suffer not thy selfe to be instructed by them that labour to deprive thee not only of the comfort of gods grace , but of the comfort of common sence : dost thou well understand what it is to hate a man as a sinner , and not as a man ? if hatred be no more then displeasure ; surely whatsoever be the cause of it , in hating thee he is displeased with thee , as thou art his creature , and that in thy proper kind of man ; if withall it signify punishment , whatsoever the cause thereof be , surely he punisheth thee as man , though not for thy natures sake , for that is the worke of god , but for some corruption he finds in thee . and we should prove very sorry comforters ; if on such a distinction as this , we should ground any true consolation ; which hath his course not only with the devills , but even with them that are already under the torments of hell fire . but let not the authority of the booke of wisdome , with thee weigh up and elevate the authority of scriptures ; nor philo the jew be preferred before s t paul , or the prophet malachy , by whom wee are taught that as god loved jacob before he was borne , so he hated esau ; and before they were borne , what difference was there betweene them ? yet this passage out of the booke of wisdome is in a collect of the papists liturgy ; i conceive a good sence may be made thereof without any prejudice to absolute reprobation , ( for of papists we ate sayd to have learnt it and are reproached for it . ) and what is that good sense they make of it ? take it if thou wilt from aquinas . q : . art : ad . . dicendum quod deus omnes homines diligit , & etiam omnes creaturas in quantum omnibus vult aliquod bonum : non tamen quodcunque bonum vult omnibus ; in quantum igitur quibusdam non vult hoc bonum , quod est vita aeterna , dicitur eos habere odio , vel reprobare : now if we take this colect from them , let us take also their good meaning with it ; and if we can , let us make it better and not worse . we commonly say , that passions are attributed to god not quoad affectum , but quoad effectum : now the effect of hatred is either the denyall of grace , or the denyall of glory , or the inflicting of damnation ; the two latter are executed only according to mens sinnes ; but the first , to wit , the denyall of grace , proceeds meerely according to the good pleasure of gods will ; like as the giving of grace ( as the apostle ( not philo ) signifies , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ; now to shew mercy is to bring a man to faith . rom. . . and if grace be not given according to the meere pleasure of gods will , it must be given according unto workes , which is as much as to say in the phrase of the ancients , according unto merits , which all along hath been condemned in the church of god , as meere pelagianisme . yet hitherto tends all the consolation that arminianisme can reach forth unto thee ; which is to afford thee no better consolation then can be afforded to a reprobate . . as for adams transgression , let not that affright thee , who art borne within the pale of the church , and of christian parents ; for the children of such are holy . cor. . when all others are uncleane . yet why should any man find it strange , that some of them who are guilty of eternall death , should suffer eternall death ? and this author hath formerly confessed , that adams sinne hath made all his posterity guilty of eternall death . now albeit god hates many , whether as involved in adams transgression , or no , what matters that to thy discomfort , if he hate not thee . and what ground hast thou to conceive , that thou art in the number of them whom he hates , rather then of those whom he loves ? he is no good physitian , that lookes not into the cause of the desease , to remoove that ; nor he any good comforter that lookes not into the cause of thy discomfort , to remoove them ; it is to be thought that such an one desires rather to feed thy discomfort , then to cure it . such is the practice of this comforter , otherwise he should not apply his arguments of comfort ( which he magnifies as the strongest ) with as much art and cunning as can be : but understand him aright , this art and cunning tends not to the furtherance of thy consolation , but to the advantage of his owne arminian cause ; ; and to this end , i confesse , he doth apply them with as much art and cunning as he can . . and god hath a two-fold love , a generall love , which puts forth it selfe in outward and temporall blessings only , and with this he loves all men . and a speciall , by which he provides everlasting life for men , and with this only he loves a very few , which out of his alone will and pleasure he singled from the rest . under this generall love am i , not the speciall . consideration . . as touching the distinction , hold thee to it , least otherwise thou never proove capable of more comfort then a reprobate is capable of . no arminian hath the face to deny that god saves but a very few ; and the reason is , because very few doe believe and repent : in this we all agree . againe , no arminian denies that very few doe believe and repent , and finally persevere therein . againe , no arminian denies faith and repentance to be the gift of god , and that hereby alone men are singled out from the rest . now the question is , whether god singleth out some men from the rest by giving them faith and repentance according to the meere pleasure of his will , or according to their workes ? we say , according to the meere pleasure of gods will , for he hath mercy on whom he will. rom : . . arminians say according to mens workes ; and hereupon in the issue comes all their consolations to be grounded , that is upon a notorious heresy condemned above yeare agoe . . but as touching the accommodation of this distinction unto thy selfe , saing thou art under gods generall love not under his speciall : i pray the tell me what ground thou hast for that ? what one of gods elect , while they were in the state of nature , had not as greate cause to be as uncomfortable as thy selfe ; and why maist not thou be in gods good time in as comfortable a condition as any of them , and to say as john doth , see what love the father hath shewed us that we should be called the sonnes of god ? dost thou mourne for thy sinne or no ? if thou dost not , why shouldest thou looke to be partaker of those comforts which are peculiar to them that mourne ? if thou dost , thy saviour hath said , blessed are they that mourne for they shall be comforted . dost thou hunger and thirst after the favour of god , and to be made partaker of the righteousnesse of christ which alone can give thee assurance of thine election ? if thou doest not hunger and thirst after this , why shouldest thou be cast downe , because thou hast not this assurance ? if thou doest desire this assurance , and to that purpose hast an hungry appetite after the righteousnesse of christ ; thy saviour saith , blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousnesse , for they shall be filled . or hast thou a desire to have thy sinnes pardoned , and thy soule saved ; but not any desire that thy soule may be sanctified ; what comfort shouldest thou or any such expect at the hands of god ? thou wouldest serve the devill , but thou , wouldest not goe to hell with the devill . but i tell thee , god hath decreed the contrary , namely , that all such shall have this doome ; goe ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devill and his angells . yet i will not leave thee , nor give over all hope of thee ; for i am glad to heare thee confesse , that though thou desirest thy sinne may be pardoned , and thy soule saved , yet thou hast no desire that thy soule should be sanctified ; therefore answer me but to one thing more , and i have done with thee ; is it thy griefe and sorrow , that thou hast no desire , that thy nature may be sanctified , or is it no griefe at all unto thee ? if it be no griefe unto thee , then still thou takest delight in sinne ; and how can delight in sinne , stand with the feare of gods judgements , and if thou fearest not god , how canst thou breake out into such complaints , woe is me for i am a cast-away : these motions usually proceed from the terrours of god ; and if thou art once acquainted with gods terrours , in consideration of thy sinnefull condition ; then be of good cheere , for these symptomes are commonly as the pangs of child-birth , whereby it comes to passe , that a christian soule is at length brought forth into the world of grace . and therefore the spirit of bondage , to make us feare , doth prepare , and make way for the spirit of adoption , whereby we cry abba father . and by experience i have known some , being thus cast downe , and stricken with feares of being cast-awayes , when they have been demanded which condition they have thought better of , either this present condition of feare and terrour , or the former condition of their prophanenesse , when they were without all remorse or check of consciences ; they have readily professed , that this present condition of feare and terrour , was the better of the two . now let us heare how well the comforter plaies his part . minister . god so loves all men , as that he desires their eternall good ; for the apostle saith , he would have all to be saved , and he would have no man perish , nor thee in particular . consideration . he proceeds very judiciously i confesse , by way of gradation from the apocryphall , to the canonicall ; but at once he makes use both of corruptor stilus , and adulter sensus . the very words of the apostle he corrupts ; for the apostle no where saith that god would have all to be saved , that god would have none to perish ; 't is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who will have all to be saved in the one ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not willing any to perish in the other . men would doe many things that they cannot ; it is not so with god. and if it be not adulter sensus , to apply this to all and every one , here is comfort indeed with a witnesse ; for if god will save every one ; and withall can save them , whereof there is no doubt to be made , then there are no reprobates at all ; every one is predestinate to salvation by the will , that is , by the decree of god ; and who hath resisted his will , saith s. paul. and will he not have all & every one to believe & repent ? if not , then seeing he will have all to be saved , it follows that god , wil have all men to be saved , whether they believe or no , repent or no ; but if he will have all to believe & repent , by that will whereby he will have all to be saved ; seeing god can give all men faith and repentance ; what followes but that all and every one shall believe and repent , & be saved , and consequently , there are no reprobates at all ? but i know full well what their interpretation of this is , namely , that god is ready to give faith and repentance unto all , to wit , in case they will ; but doth not god give the very will to believe and repent ? yes in case they will. take this comfort then into thy bosome , and make the best use of it to perswade thee that thou art no cast-away ; for if thou believest and repentest , all is safe , thou hast as good assurance of thy salvation as gods word can give thee . and though faith and repentance be the gift of god , yet this comforter doth assure thee , that if thou wilt believe thou shalt believe , if thou wilt repent thou shalt repent . for god doth not give the grace of faith and repentance , according to the meere pleasure of his own will , but according to mens workes ; for albeit the apostle saith , god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ; yet that is not to be understood of vocation , but rather of justification . and let it not startle thee , that justification in scripture phrase , is opposed to condemnation , and not to obduration , but to thy comfort be it spoken , it must be opposed to obduration here ; least otherwise faith and repentance should not be given according to mens workes , but according to the meere pleasure of god ; which is a very uncomfortable doctrine . but be thou assured , that if thou wilt believe and repent , thou shalt believe and repent , such is gods grace ; and though it be as true , i confesse , on the other side , that if thou wilt not believe and repent , thou shalt not believe and repent ; yet that is not to be accounted gods grace , least so we should say , that gods grace is as active to evill , as it is unto good . so that hereby thou maist still perceive , that all thy comfort depends on this , that the grace of faith and repentance is given according to mens works . tempted . all , is taken two waies : for all sorts and conditions of men , and for all particular men : god would have all sorts of men to be saved , but not all , or mee in particular . . or if he will have all particular men to be saved ; yet he wills it only with a revealed will , but not with a secret will , for with that he will have a great company damned . under his revealed will am i , not the secret . consideration . . that all is taken after these two waies in scripture , and that in this place tim. . it is to be taken of genera singulorum , i have formerly proved , both by the circumstances of the text , and by the analogy of faith , for otherwise we should trench upon gods omnipotency and unchangeablenesse ; and lastly by the judgement of austin . but take the meaning aright , not that god would , but that god will have all men , that is , of all sorts , even of kings and princes , some to be saved ; but not all and every one . as for the distinction of a revealed will , and secret will applyed to salvation , thou maist learne that somewhere of papists , but not of us . for the revealed will is gods commandement ; now that which god commands is a part of his law , so is not salvation , but rather a reward of obedience . yet they apply this distinction only in reference to faith and repentance , whereunto god hath annexed salvation . and it is gods revealed will that all who heare the gospell should believe and repent ex officio ; but it is not gods will to give every one of them grace to believe and repent , as we find by manifest experience . it was gods will in like manner to command abraham to sacrifice his sonne , but it was not gods determination that isaack should be sacrificed . in like sort he commanded pharaoh to let israel goe , but withall he told moses , he would harden pharaohs heart , that he should not let them goe for a long time . . but in the accommodation of these distinctions unto thy selfe , what ground hast thou to affirme , that god willeth not thy salvation in particular ? if thou believest , gods word assureth thee thou shalt be saved ; if thou believest not , yet thou maist believe ; and gods word hath power to bring thee unto faith , as formerly i have discoursed . and as for the best of gods children who doe believe , to the great comfort of their soules , rejoycing with joy unspeakable and glorious . pet. . they were sometimes in as uncomfortable a condition as thou now art . and the rather i put thee upon this , because i see he that takes upon him to comfort thee , doth take a course rather to feed thy humour , then to remove it , in as much as he never enquires into the cause thereof . for albeit he gave to understand , he would apply his argument with as much art and cunning as could be , yet it may be , that was rather with respect to the advantage of his own cause , then to thy consolation . but let us see whether he mends it in the next . minister . christ came into the world to seeke and to save what was lost ; and is a propitiation , not for our sinnes only , i. e. the sinnes of a few particular men , or the sinnes of all sorts of men , but for the sinnes of the whole world ; therefore he came to save thee , for thou wast lost ; and to be a propitiation for thy sinnes , for thou art part of the whole world. consideration . still he continues to afford thee as much comfort as any reprobate in the world ; and if thou desirest no more , thou maist rest satisfied with this ; but withall i confesse , he affords thee as much comfort , as he can afford any of gods elect , for he maketh elect and reprobate all alike in receiving comfort from gods word . christ came into the world to save that which was lost , but unlesse he came to save all that is lost , it will not follow that he came to save thee . we know that pardon of sinne and salvation is procured by christ , for none but such as believe ; and therefore be not deceived , without faith looke for neither ; by faith be assured of both , and that thou art one of gods elect and no reprobate . and observe well he tells thee nothing of christ meriting faith and repentance ; this now a dayes is plainly denyed by the remonstrants ; and this authour is content to say nothing of it ; when he is put to it we know what must be the issue of it ; if he sayeth christ hath merited faith and repentance for thee , the meaning is but this ; christ hath merited that if thou wilt believe thou shalt believe , if thou wilt repent , thou shalt repent . and that christ hath merited that god should bestow faith and repentance not on whom he will according to the meere pleasure of his will , but according to mens workes . the comfort that our doctrine ministers unto thee , is this , if thou dost believe in christ , thou maist be assured thou art an elect of god , if thou dost not believe , there is no cause why thou shouldest thinke thy selfe a cast-away ; for albeit thou hast not faith to day , yet thou maist have faith to morrow . give thy selfe to gods word : and waite upon him in his ordinances , thou maist be so wrought upon as that unbeliever was , cor : . who is there represented falling downe on his face , and confessing that god was in the preacher of a truth . and though at first thou attendest to it , but in a carnall manner , yet god may open thy heart as he opened the heart of lidia , and make thee attend unto it in a gracious manner . tempted . the world ( as i have heard ) is taken two waies in scripture , largely for all mankind ; and strictly for the elect , or believers : in this latter sense christ dyed for the world. or if for all , yet it was only dignitate pretii , not voluntate propositi ; thus only for a few selected ones , with whom it is not my lot to be numbred . consideration . suffer not thy selfe to be abused by them , who pretending thy comfort , yet seeke nothing lesse , but only the promoting of their owne cause . and observe how he takes notice of no other benefits of christs death , then such as belong unto men upon the condition of faith , to wit , pardon of sinne and salvation ; in which case the mention of gods elect comes in very unseasonably . and thus is the love of god set forth unto us ; so god loved the world , that he gave his only begotten sonne , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life : and if it be not thy lot to be numbred amongst believers , then we can give thee , by gods word , no assurance of thy salvation . but if thou art not a believer yet , thou maist be in good time as formerly i have spoken more at large ; and therefore no reason to think thou art a reprobate . and if once thou dost believe in christ , our doctrine gives thee assurance of justification , salvation , and election ; the arminan doctrine doth not . as for faith and repentance , we say christ hath merited them also , but to be bestowed how ? according to mens workes say our arminians , though forraine arminians professe plainly that christ merited not faith and regeneration for any . and if thou relishest this comfort , be satisfied with it ; we say faith and repentance are bestowed absolutely according to the meere pleasure of gods will , and accordingly christ merited them , but not for all , for then all should believe and repent and be saved ; but only for some , and who can these be but gods elect ; whence it followeth clearly that whosoever believes may by our doctrine be assured of his election , not so by the doctrine of arminians ; but if thou believest not thou art in no worse case then the best of gods childern have been ; for there was a time when they believed not ; therefore thou hast no more cause to think thy selfe a cast-away then they had . minister . god hath founded an universall covenant with men upon the bloud of christ , and therefore he intended it should be shed for all men universally ; he hath made a promise of salvation to every one that will believe , and excludes none that will not believe . consideration . this i confesse is to administer as much comfort , as is administred to any reprobate ; but how can this qualify thy discomfort , and discontent , which riseth from this conceit , that thou art a reprobate . and the truth is , that by our doctrine , wee were all in a miserable case , if gods covenant of grace extended no farther then this . but hath not god promised to be our lord , and our god that sanctifyeth us , to circumcise our hearts , and the hearts of our children , to love the lord our god with all our hearts : to take the stony heart out of our bowells , and give us an heart of flesh , and to put his own spirit within us ; as he seeth our waies , so to heale them , yea , to heale our back-slidings , to heale our rebellions . all this , this sweet comforter takes no notice of , contenting himselfe with such a grace to be merited for him by christ as this , if he will believe he shall believe ; if he will repent he shall repent ; if he will love god with all his heart , he shall love him with all his heart . yet when a man doth believe , they are able to give him no assurance of his salvation , or of his election ; because they maintaine , that a man may totally and finally fall away from grace : and all because their doctrine is , that gods effectuall grace in working the act of faith and repentance , is given meerely according to mens works . tempted . god purposed that his sonne should dye for all men , and that in his name an offer of remission of sinnes , and salvation should be made to every one , but yet upon this condition , that they will doe that which he meanes the greatest part shall never doe ( i. e. repent and believe ) nor i among the rest . consideration . how doth god meane that the greatest part of men shall never believe and repent , by our opinion ? is it in this sence , that they shall not believe and repent if they will ? when was it ever knowne that any of our divines ever wrote or taught this ? we think rather it is impossible it should be otherwise , & therefore say it is a very absurd thing to call this [ grace ] as the arminians doe . indeed we say that god doth not meane by his preventing grace to work the wills of the greatest part of men to believe & repent : doe not the arminians say so too ? yes verily , and a great deale more : for they deny that he workes any mans will to believe and repent in this manner ; but we say god purchaseth thus to worke the wills of all his chosen ones , and when he hath wrought them , to keepe them by his power through faith unto salvation ; and put his feare in their hearts , that they shall never depart a way from him . jer . . and upon this ground we can assure believers of their election which arminians cannot ; and them that believe not , keepe from dispaire in better manner then the arminians can , for they leave them to themselves to believe ; whereas the scriptures shew that to be impossible : so that they take upon them to comfort such quite against the haire . but we comfort them with a possibility . of being converted unto god by representing his allmighty power , whose voyce is able to pierce into the graves and make dead lazarus heare it . this power he shewed in converting saul , when he marched furiously ( jehu like ) against the church of god. therfore be thou of good comfort , especially considering thou art as it were under the wings of god , thou hearest his voyce ; many come out of their graves at his call ; some at one time , some at another , and so maist thou god knowes how soone ; then shalt thou be assured of thine election , which by arminianisme thou canst not be ; in the meane time thou hast no cause to conclude that thou art a reprobate . minister . god hath a true meaning , that all men who are called should repent and believe , that so they might be saved ; as he would have all to be saved , so to come to the knowledge of the truth ; and as he would have no man to perish , so he would have all men to repent , and therefore he calls them in the preaching of the word to the one , as well as to the other . consideration . he keepes his course to afford thee the best comfort his doctrine yeelds , which is as much as is incident to a reprobate , and how that should make thee conceive better of thy selfe , then as of a reprobate , i doe not perceive , gods meaning is that as many as heare the gospell should believe and repent ex officio ; that is , that it shall be their duty , for he commands it : but he hath no meaning to bestow on all and every one the grace of faith and repentance , as appeares by experience . and if god did will they should de facto believe and be saved , then either god is not able to bring them to faith and to save them , or else his will is changed . in like sort if it were his will that all and every one should know his truth , then god is not able to make all and every one know his truth , for it is apparent that all doe not ; it is apparent that all have not the gospell ; the apostle saith , that god will not have any of us to perish but all to come to repentance : he doth not say he would but he will : and this is true of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such as the apostle speakes of , believers and elect . but as for others , the scriptures plainly professe , that god blinds them , hardens them ; and of israell in the wildernesse , the lord ( saith moses ) hath not given you an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto this day . deut : . . he calls all that heare the gospell indifferently by the ministry of the word , but he openeth not the heart of all to attend unto it , as to the word of god , like as we read he opened the heart of ●idia . acts. . . tempted . god hath a double call , outward by his word , inward by the irresistible work of his spirit ; with this he doth not call every man to believe , but a very few only , whom he hath infallibly , and inevitably , ordained to eternall life , and therefore by the outward call , which i enjoy among many others , i cannot be assured of gods good will and meaning , that i shall believe , repent , and be saved . consideration . our doctrine teacheth not that god calls every one by his word , that is an arminian interjection . but the outward call belongs to many more then are chosen , as our saviour sayth , many are called but few are chosen ; indeed he gives faith and repentance to a very few , which no arminian denyes ; only the question is , whether god gives faith and repentance to whom he will , or according to mens works . we saytis to whom he will , proceeding herein according to the meere pleasure of his will ; and not according to mens workes ; which to affirme is manifest pelagianisme , and publikely condemned many hundred yeares agoe . it is true , if thou dost not believe , gods word doth not assure thee that he will make thee believe ; that were to assure thee of thine election before thy vocation ; a most unreasonable thing to be expected . but god by his word assures thee , that t is his meaning that without faith thou shalt not be saved . yet there is no cause thou shouldest think thy selfe a reprobate ; for this was the condition of every one of gods elect before their calling . it may be thou maist have experience of the same power of divine grace , to bring thee to faith also , and to repentance ; therefore seeing gods word is the only meanes to worke faith , waite daily at his gates and give attendance at the posts of his doores ; and doe not prescribe unto him , or say with joram , shall i wait upon the lord any longer ? though it be longere he calls thee , yet it may goe never a whit the worse with thee for that , for sometimes it falleth out that the last are first , and the first last : and the commendation that austin makes , of the theef's faith upon the crosse , is remarkeable , de orig , animae , lib. . cap. . tanto pondere appensum est , tantumque valuit ap ud eum qui haec novit appendere , quod confessus est dominum crucifixum , quantum si fuisset pro domino crucifixus . tunc enim fides ejus de ligno floruit , quando discipulorum marcuit , nisi cujus mortis terrore marcuerunt ejus resurrectione reviresceret . illi enim desperaverunt de moriente , ille speravit in commorientem . refugerunt illi authorem vitae , rogavit ille consortem poenae . doluerunt illi tanquam homines mortem , credidit ille regnaturum esse post mortem , deseruerunt illi sponsorem salutis , honoravit ille socium crucis . inventa est in eo mensura martyris , qui tunc in christum credidit , quando defecerunt , qui futuri erant martyres . . from the comedy i come to the tragedy , i meane the story of spira . sleidan saith of him , that incredibili ardore caepit complecti puriorem doctrinam : & cum indies magis magisque proficeret , non domi tantum apud amicos quid sentiret de singulis dogmatis , verum etiam passim apud omnes explicabat . tidings hereof coming to the popes legat then at venice john casa arch-bishop of beneventum , he convents spira , who confesseth his errour before him , intreats pardon , and promiseth obedience for time to come . the legat not contented with this , commands him to goe home , and publiquely to revoke his errour . sleidan writes no more here of but this , accipit ille conditionem , & licet etiam tum inciperet ipsum paenitere facti , tamen urgentibus amicis , qui non ipsius modo , sed conjugis etiam & liberorum & facultatum ipsius spem totam in eo positam dicerent , obtemperavit . osiander writes that pessimo consilio obsecutus , abnegando veritatem caelestem perrexit , eamque publice ut haeresin blasphemavit & abjuravit . the distresse of conscience which overtooke him hereupon is notorious , the issue whereof was to end his woefull dayes more woefully in despaire . but nothing more strange then his discourses and meditations in the midst of this his desperate condition . as for the particulars following , : touching the greatnesse of his sinne , and that he was taken off from that by the example of peter , i find no such thing neither in sleidan , nor osiander , nor in goulartius ; but rather in this latter , who makes the largest relation thereof taken out of the discourse of one henry scringer , a learned lawyer who was then at padua , who did see , and many times talke with this poore spira ; i find that which makes to the contrary , namely , that the sinne which he laid to his owne charge was the sinne against the holy ghost . and no example i trust neither of peter , nor any other was sufficient to take him off from despaire in such a case . . and as for the discourse here suggested of his absolute reprobation , which he opposed against their comforts ministred unto him , no mention thereof , neither in sleidan , nor in osiander ; nay osiander writes that he was wish'd to revoke doctrinam lutheranam , and this was it which he did ( as he sayeth ) blaspheme as an heresy , and abjure . goulartius indeed relates how he conceived himselfe to be reprobated of god , as justly he might in case he judged himselfe to have sinned against the holy ghost ; and as for that which is here set down in latin , of him that is a reprobate , namely , that necessario condemnabitur , though his sins be small & few , & that nihil interest multa an pauca , magna an parva sint ; quando nec dei misericordia , nec christi sanguis quicquam ad eos pertinet . neither sleidan , nor osiander nor goulartius makes any mention of it . and therefore i wonder not that he neither followeth sleidan , nor osiander much lesse that he followes not goulartius . he cites caelius secundus and calvin as his authours , and some others that wrot thereof to their friends , but names them not ; as neither where it is that caelius secundus makes mention of it , or in what booke of calvin it is found . i imagined it might be in his epistles ; i have spent some houres in searching therein from the yeare to the yeare , and can find nothing concerning it . now goulartius wrote since caelius secundus , and calvin and sleidan , and his relation is large ; and it semes he inquired in to it somewhat better then they that went before him . and thus he relates it out of the discourse of henry scringer a lawyer of padua , who saw spira at that time , and divers times spake with him . in a small towne of the territory of padua called civitelle there was a learned lawyer , and advocat , a wise and very rich , man and an honourable father of a family , called francis spira , who having sayd and done divers things against his conscience , to maintaine himselfe and his charge , ( observe by the way he delivers the cause only in generall concealing the speciality , it being so strang a testimony and evidence against the romish religion ) being returned to his house , he could never rest an houre , not a minut , nor have any ease of his continuall anguish : and even from that night he was so terrified and had such horrour of his actions , as he held himselfe for lost . for ( as he himselfe did afterward confesse ) he did set plainely before his eyes , all the torments , all the paines of the damned , and in his soule did heare the fearfull sentences , being drawne before the judgment seat of jesus christ ( a fearfull example to all apostates ; ) the next day and so following he was not seene to resume any courage , but his spirits were strangely troubled , and the terrour tooke from him all rest and appetite . this accident was so greivous to his friends , as some repented them much that they had beene the cause of so great an inconvenience , by their intreaties . others , thinking it did proceed from some cholerick or melancholy humour , were of opinion to send him to padova to be physicked by the learned physitians , revived by honorable company , and setled by the coference of learned men there , to some of which he was well knowne . his wife and children with some of his familiar friends did accompany him , and he was lodged in one of the chiefe houses . frisimilega bellocat and crassus ( famous physitians ) did visit him , and give him physicke with singular affection : and soone found that he was little sicke in body , but grievously in mind , for in all other things he discoursed gravely , and constanstly , so as none of his familiar friends could discerne that the quicknesse of his discourse was any thing impaired . continuing still in his weaknesse , many were much troubled , and dayly his chamber was full of people ; some curious to see and heare , others were desirous to draw him to hope in the mercies of god ; i was present at many of his speeches , with some men of honour and learning . to deliver that which i could observe , i began first to note his age and his fashion . he was about yeares old , free from the violent passions of youth , and from the coldnesse of old age . nothing came out of his mouth , that was light or foolishly spoken : or that might discover any doting in him ; although he did dayly discourse of grave and important matters with the learned , and that some did propound unto him high questions especially in divinity . . i will briefly relate same speeches they had with him . during his abode at padua and i will not forget that he declared with a setled judgment , that he did see the eternall vengeance of god prepared against the sinne , that he had committed : ( this was the true cause of his dispaire , and not an ungrounded conceit of his reprobation ; but the conscience of his sinne cast him upon this , and made him conceive he was a reprobate . ) for that he did find in him selfe that those things which god had given to others to rejoyce their spirits , all conspired against him in despite of his horrible forfeit : ( i doubt the phrase here in the originall was not well understood by the traslatour ; ) for although , said he , that god for a great blessing had promised to many holy men a goodly issue , and a great number of children , in whose love and obedience they may repose their age ; yet in the midst of his miseries , the hands and faces of his children were as horrible unto him as the hangmans ( and indeed for the good of his children he renounced gods truth for meere temporall respects . ) it cannot well be expressed what griefe & vexation he seemed to receive when his children brought him meat , forcing him to eat , and threatning him when he refused it . he confessed his children did their dutyes , and yet he tooke it in ill part , saying , that he did not acknowledge god any more for his father , but did feare him as his adversary armed with judgment . for he had been three weeks in this apprehension , when he spake these things , without eating or drinking , but what they forced him unto , the which he received with great difficulty , resisting with all his power , and spitting out that which they forced him to take . some of the assistants were of opinion to make him afraid , to make him the more apt to receive food , first for the soule , then for the body ; asking him if he did not feare greater and sharper torments after this life then those he then felt . he confessed that he expected farre more sharpe , and had already horror of them : yet he desired nothing more then to be cast headlong in to them , that he might not feare other more grevious torments . they asked him againe if he thought his sinne so foule as it could not be pardoned through the bounty and infinite mercy of god ? his answer was , that he had sinned against the holy ghost , which was so great a sinne , as is called a sinne unto death ; that is to say , subject to the eternall vengeance of god , and to the paines of hell : ( now judge i pray whether the example of peter was sufficient to take him off from desperation ; for will any say that peter in denying his master sinned against the holy ghost ; ) whereof ( to wit , the sinne against the holy ghost ) this poore wretch discoursed amply , learnedly , and too subtilly against him selfe : learned and godly men , which did assist him , omitted no testimonies that might assure a wounded conscience that god is mercifull , gentle and ready to pardon . but all this could not divert him from this opinion , neither could they draw any other thing from him , then that he desired much that he might returne to some hope of pardon . but it fares with me ( saith he ) as with criminall persons , shut up in close prisons , and fettered hand and foot . sometimes they are saluted by their friends passing by , who advise them to breake prison , and to deceive their guards if they can . such prisoners would gladly follow their counsell , but it is a vaine desire : even so is mine , said he . . as for the scriptures which were cited to him , touching the love and affection of god the father , by reason of his sonne jesus christ , he did avow them ; adding , that they belonged only to them , whom jesus christ did repute his brethren , and his members ; but as for him , he had renounced that love , and willingly rejected brotherly alliance , neither was ignorant in how great tranquillity of mind they might be , who had once embraced the promises of salvation , and did wrest them continually therein . for confirmation whereof , this his sad disaster ( said he ) was propounded for an example before all mens eyes : that if they were wise they should not hold it light , nor happened by any chance , but to learne by his ruine , how dangerous it is , to fall any thing from that which belongs to the great glory of the sonne of god : adding that it was a slippery , and very dangerous passage , yea most fearfull to him that stood not carefully on his guard. moreover forasmuch as such evident examples , of the vengeance of almighty god did seldome appeare to the eyes of men , they deserved to be the more carefully regarded . that amongst a great number of reprobates in the world , his calamity was not singular ; but his only punishment and ruine did satisfy god , a just judge to admonish all others to have a care of themselves . he added withall , that therein he did acknowledge the severity of gods judgement , who had chosen him to make him a spectacle , rather then any other , and to admonish all by one mans mouth , to abstaine from all iniquity ; confessing withall , that there was no reproach or punishment , which he had not deserved , by reason of his foule offence . after he had discoursed thus sincerely and gravely of the justice divine , he said they should not take it strange , this his long speech touching the true reason of the will of god : for that oftentimes god doth wrest out of the mouthes of reprobates , most assured testimonies of his majesty , his justice , and his fearfull vengeance . how strangely doth he plead for gods justice against himselfe as a reprobate ? when our arminians are like to blaspheame that justice of god against spira , which spira justifies against himselfe , using a long discourse upon this sentence , and desirous to shew the greatnesse of gods judgements . there are some ( saith he ) who have all things so wishfully , as they live in all delights , who notwithstanding are registred for perdition , whereof jesus christ propounds an example in the rich man. luc. . that god doth often propound to mankind an hope of reward to draw them to the right beliefe of his holy will , and oft-times withdrawes them from impieties , by fearfull and prodigious signes . and yet as impiety is naturall to men , they make not their profit of such instructions , and think not that it concernes them : but impute it to any other thing , rather then to the wisdome of god , to feare and reverence him : hereupon he made a bitter invective against a certain philosopher , whom he had known above twenty years before , for that his morosoph had been so impudent to deliver in his lessons , yea to write it , and publish it in print , that all the miracles that christ had done upon the earth , might well be done by a man that were skilfull in the knowledge of naturall things . it were hard to represent the admiration wherewith they were surprized , and with what compassion they were moved , that came to visit him , for the discourses which they heard come from his mouth . every man laboured to reduce this poore man , to some hope of his salvation . among others there was one , a reverend man for his holinesse of life , who departed not from the patients bed , it was the bishop of capod ' istria in the venetians territory ; ( this was vergerius , who afterwards renounced popery , and became a protestant : ) he ceased not to exhort spira , and ceased not by many testimonies of the holy scriptures , to divert him from that apprehension ; adding that he did not think his spirit was altogether voyd and destitute , of some good and heavenly inspirations , seeing he spake so holily and devoutly of the excellency of christian religion . . although the sick man knew ful well that these admonitions proceeded from a sincere and true heart ; yet for that he had diverse times rejected them , he began to frowne , saying to the bishop , you believe , as i think , that i doe willingly nourish this obstinacy in my mind , and that i take delight in this vehement passion of despaire : if you be of that opinion , you are deceived : i will tell you , to the end you may know my resolution , that if i could be perswaded that the judgement of god , might by any meanes be changed or mitigated for mee , it should not grieve me to be tormented ten thousand yeares , with the sharpest paines of hell , so as i might have any hope of rest after this long sufferance . but even in that whereby you doe exhort me to gather any hope , i see all meanes of health and pardon taken from me . for if the testimonies of holy scripture have any authority ( as they have ) doe you thinke that jesus christ hath said in vaine , that he which hath renounced him before men , he will renounce him before his heavenly father ? doe you not see that it concernes me , and that it is as it were , particularly verified in my person ? what shall become of him , whom the sonne hath disavowed before his father , when as you say , we must hope for no salvation but in jesus christ . thereupon he did expound certain passages of the epistle to the hebrewes , and of the second catholique epistle of saint peter , out of which he drew terrible conclusions against himselfe . wee cannot believe with what gravity and vehemency , his words were delivered , neither was there ever heard man pleading better for himselfe , then spira did then against himselfe . he did alleadge notable things of gods justice , detesting his forepassed life ; admonishing all that were about him , very earnestly , not to think that christian life was a light thing , and easily discharged . that it doth not consist only in having the head baptised , in reading certaine verses and texts of the gospell , and to be termed an honest man , but it was needfull to live as the word of truth doth command him . thereupon he repeated a text out of saint peter , exhorting us to shew through holinesse of life , certain signes of the love of god towards us , and of the confidence we should have in him : he said moreover , that he had known many who after they had tasted the sweetnesse of true felicity , suffered themselves so to be carried away , as they had no longer care to performe that which belonged to a child of god. . he protested that he had sometimes imagined , that his sinnes had been hidden , and that he could not be punished , for that christ had made satisfaction for them : but then he knew too late , that those things belonged only to the elect , and chosen of god , betwixt whose sinnes , and the celestiall throne , jesus christ sets his precious bloud , and the dignity of his obedience , as a veile and shadow to cover them , and doth plant them against the divine vengeance , as an high and strong rampart , that sinners repenting them , might not be opprest , nor drowned with the deluge and overflowings of their offences and sinnes . as for himselfe , seeing that he had renounced our saviour jesus christ ( here was the true burthen of his sorrowfull heart ) he had , as one should say , overthrowne this strong rampart with his own hands , so that after this ruine , and overflowing the deluge of waters of this vengeance , had covered and swallowed up his soule . one of his most familiar friends said unto him , that he did hold the cause of this his great torment , proceeded from abundance of melancholy humours , that did so trouble his braine . spira remembring that he had many times refuted that opinion , and seeing they were to begin againe , said unto the other ; you may think what you please , but god in truth hath troubled my spirit , and deprived me of judgement ; seeing it is impossible for me to have any hope of my salvation . having continued in such and the like speeches , during his abode at padua , they carried him back , to his own house at civitelle , where he dyed in this despaire . discourse . sect . iii. it makes ministers unable to afford true comfort to the tempted ; and this it doth , because it . takes from them all solid grounds of comfort . . leaves them only weake and insufficient grounds . . it bereaves them of the solid grounds of comfort ; which are these . . the universality of gods love . . of christs death . . and of the covenant of grace . that minister which doth explaine and apply these three things soundly , and wisely to him that is tempted in this kind , doth that which is abundantly enough for the relieving and releasing of him from his temptation , and he that doth not apply these , leaves him as he found him in the midst of his temptation still , whatsoever may be said to the contrary in the hear of disputation . etsi multa disputantur durius ( saith melancthon ) tamen necesse est in vero agone ad hanc arcem confugere , videlicet , quod de voluntate dei indicandum sit ex verbo expresso , & quod promissio sit universalis , & quod sit mandatum dei aeternum & immutabile audire filium & assentiri promissioni . though there be many things disputed in this poynt more harshly , yet when all is done , the universall promise of grace , and salvation , is a christians only bulwarke in this temptation , and combate . obtemperemus igitur ( saith he ) ne vagentur animi quaerentes electionem extra verbum , & relicto christo , & omisso mandato de amplectenda promissione ; sed teneamus certa est indubitata fide promissionem gratiae non inanem esse fabulam ; sed deum vere patefecisse voluntatem suam in promissione , & verè praestare quod promisit . let us not therefore leave christ and looke for an election out of the word , but let us judge of gods will , in saving men by the promise , and commandement , which are both universall . and in another place of the same booke , he hath these words . sicut est necesse scire evangelium promissionem esse gratuitam , ita est necesse scire evangelium promissionem universalem esse , hanc universalem tenere necesse est , adversus periculosas imaginationes de praedestinatione , ne disputemus hanc promissionem ad paucos quosdam alios pertinere , non pertinere ad nos . non enim dubium est , quin omnium animos haec cogitatio exerceat . as it is needfull to know that the promise of salvation is free , so it is needfull to know and hold , that it is universall , against some dangerous conceits of predestination , &c. by these speeches we see clearely , what this learned man thought to be the true balme of gilead , whereby a wounded scule should be cured , viz. the universality of the promise ( and of gods love and christs death too , for they all hang together , and cannot be disjoyned . ) the reason why these grounds are able to help a man in this case , is twofold . . because they are directly contradictory to the temptation ; a will to save all , a giving of christ to death for all , and an offer of grace to all , cannot possibly stand with an absolute antecedent will , and intent of casting away the greatest part of mankind , or indeed any one man in the world . upon this followes the second reason . . because they serve to convict the tempted , that he cannot be in that condition in which he supposeth himselfe to be . for if two contradictories cannot be true , he that evinceth the truth of the one , convinceth the understanding of the untruth of the other : and he that makes it appeare that this contradictory , [ god would have all to be saved , redeemed , and called to repent and believe , ] is true , puts it out of doubt to the understanding , that the other contradictory , [ god will have most men to be absolutely , and inevitably damned , ] must needs be false , and so raiseth up that poore soule that was pressed downe with an erroneous conceit and feare that it was true . in this manner did junius ( though not in the same temptation ) relieve a woman perplexed exceedingly with a strong perswasion , that shee and all her children should be damned ; because she was busied about her children at a certain time , when she should have been at masse . junius maketh short work with her , tells her that her employment about her children , was a duty pleasing unto god , but the masse was a meere will-worship : and so delivering her of her errour , ( upon which the temptation was built , ) gives her present ease and comfort . in like manner tell a man that feares he is an absolute reprobate , that there are no such absolute reprobates , and that his feare is but a meere fancy , and his doubt a dreame ; convince him once by contradictory grounds that there is no man in the world in that state in which he thinkes himselfe to be , and you drive out one naile by another , and expell the temptation . these are the sword of alexander , which will cut asunder the gordian knot of absolute reprobation , and these are the true nepenthes of a sicke soule . now these true grounds of hope and comfort , a minister cannot make use of , that holds absolute reprobation ; if he doe usurpe them , he cannot maintaine them against the replyes of the tempted , unlesse he relinquish his opinion ; because ( as i have said ) there is a plain contradiction between them , and no man is able to maintaine two propositions ; which speake contrary things , to be both true , any more then he can make it good , that the same thing may have a being , and yet not have a being at the same time . for example , a minister comes to comfort a man , that thinkes himselfe to be an absolute reprobate ; and how doth he set about it ? he tells him , that god would have all to be saved , that christ dyed for all , &c. but what right hath he to these grounds of comfort , holding the contrary conclusions . viz. that god will have a great many to be damned , and to have no part in christ ? well he usurpes them notwithstanding , but is he able to maintaine them against the answer of the tempted , can he make a good reply ? no : for thus the tempted answers , god would have all to be saved with a revealed will , and , christ died for all sufficiently , not intentionally : or if god did intend that he should dye for all , yet he intended it upon a condition , which he purposeth , the most should never performe ; what can the minister reply upon this ? if he will make a direct reply , that shall take away the answer , he must deny that god hath two wills contrary to each other ; a secret will , that many shall be unavoydably damned , and a revealed will that all may be possibly saved ; and he must also deny that god hath an intent , that christ should not dye for a great many ; or that he intended he should dye for all , upon condition they should believe and repent ; and yet intend that the most should never believe and repent . but can he deny these things ? he cannot , except he deny his own conclusion , and opinion , which is , that there are many thousands , eternally and unavoydably rejected in gods absolute purpose , from grace and glory for ever : for that conclusion is all one , with the answer of the tempted , and contradictory to those arguments of comfort , which he is glad to make use of . absolute reprobation therefore , bereaves that minister , who believes it , of the solid grounds of consolation , and so makes him unable to recover a poore soule wounded with this temptation . twisse . consideration . . here in this section the question is , whether our doctrine of absolute reprobation , bereaves a minister of the solid grounds of comfort ? still wee must remember how magnificently this author goes on , to confound things that differ . for whereas we maintaine that god hath decreed to proceed absolutely with men , only in the giving and denying of grace , not absolutely in the giving of salvation , or inflicting of damnation . and this author , though he so carrieth the matter all along , as if we maintained gods proceeding to be absolute herein , to wit , in granting salvation to some , and inflicting damnation upon others , yet hath he no meanes to help himselfe herein , and cast a shew of a true crimination , but by flying to gods absolute proceedings , in giving or denying grace . and albeit in this poynt , wholly consists the crisis of this controversy , yet this author utterly declines the sifting thereof , as some precipice and breake-neck unto his cause ; to wit , whether god gives and denyes grace according to the meere pleasure of his will , or according to mens workes ; albeit the issue of all his comforts comes to this , namely , that either god is not the author of our faith , ( which now adaies the remonstrants with open mouth professe , that christ merited for none , ) or if to juggle with the world they pretend an acknowledgement , that god is the author of it , yet they plainly professe , that he dispenseth it to some , and denyes it to others , according to some good condition , or disposition , he findes in the one , and which he findes not in another . but let us take into consideration what these solid grounds of comfort are , whereof a minister is bereaved by our doctrine ; three i find here mentioned ; a treble universality . . of gods love . . of christs death . . of the covenant of grace . as if universality now adayes were a better character of the arminian faith , then of the roman religion . i may take liberty to equivocate a little , when this authour equivocates throughout , and that in a case , wherein i● is most intollerable , in a case of consolation to be ministred to conscientia timorata , as nider calls it , a poore afflicted soule as this authour expresseth it . to the discovery whereof i will now proceed , having signified in the first place , that all these consolations are no other , but such as every reprobate is capable of , as well as the children of god , which is so apparent as needs no proofe ; only in the issue of their tenet , the faith of them freeth a man from the conceit of being an absolute reprobate . so that in effect it comes to this ; thou poore afflicted soul , be of good comfort , for if thou wilt hearken unto me , and imbrace those solid grounds of comfort which i will reveale unto thee , assure thy selfe they shall be as the balme of gilead unto thy soule ; whereby thou maist be confident , that albeit it may be thou art a reprobate , and that god from everlasting hath ordained thee unto damnation , that yet certainly thou art no absolute reprobate , no more then cain , or esau , saul , or judas , or the devills were ; for these my principles will assure thee that there never was , nor is , nor shall be any absolute reprobate throughout the world . . i come to the examining of them particularly , & to shew that every one of them is as it were against the haire . so evident are the testimonies of scripture against them all ; and they are obtruded upon a superficiary and most most unsound interpretation of scripture in some places . for . as touching the first , the universality of gods love ; for hereby gods love is made indifferent unto all , and consequently towards esau as well as to jacob , whereas the scripture professeth that god loved jocob and hated esau ; and this the apostle makes equivalent to the oracle dilivered to rebekah concerning them before they were borne . . he might as well have proposed it , of the universallity of gods mercy ; whereas the scripture expressely distinguisheth between vessels of mercy & vessells of wrath . . this love is explicated by them to consist in a will to save all . now election is but gods will to save ; and the scripture plainly teacheth , and it is confessed by all that i know ( excepting coelius secundus to whom this authour it seemes is most beholding for his story of spira ) that though many are called yet but few are chosen . and whereas it is confessed , that the most part of men are reprobates , that is , from everlasting willed unto condemnation ; yet never the lesse they beare us in hand that all men even cain and judas , yea and ( as i think ) the devills and all were willed by god unto salvation . and that there is no contradiction in all this . and every poore afflicted soule must believe hand over head that all this is true ( what species of contradiction soever be found therein which this authour from the begining of his discourse to the end hath taken no paines to cleare ) least otherwise he forfaits all hopes of comfort , upon such soveraine grounds as are here proposed , by faith wherein aman may be as well assured of his salvation and freedome from damnation , as any reprobate in the world. for albeit he be a reprobate , and god should reveale this unto him , yet upon these grounds he may be confident that he is no absolute reprobate . . i come to the second comfortable supposition , and that is , the universality of christs death , namely , that he died for all . now this is opposite to scripture evidence , as the former ; yea and to christian reason , if not more : for albeit god so loved the world , even the whole world , that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have life everlasting : which gives a fair light of exposition to those places where christ is said to have dyed for the sins of the world , yea of the whole world , to wit , in this manner , that whosoever believes in him shal not perish but have everlasting life . yet the scripture speaks as often of christs death in a restrained sense , as where it is said christ gave himselfe a ransome for many . and that his bloud was shed for his apostles , and for many , for the remission of their sinnes . and that christ should save gods people from their sinnes . and that god hath purchased his church with his bloud ; and christ gave himselfe for his church . and that he is saviour of his body ; and that he dyed for the elect . and in the of john , our saviour would not pray for the world , but only for those whom god had at that time given unto him ; and who afterward should believe in him through their word ; and look for whom he prayed with exclusion of the rest for their sakes he sanctified himself : now that this is spoken in reference to the offering of himselfe up unto god , upon the crosse , it was the joynt interpretation of all the fathers whom maldonate had read as he professeth on that place , and there reckons up a multitude of them . then againe , christs death and passion ( we know ) was of a satisfactory nature ; and therefore if he dyed for all , he satisfied for all the sinnes of all men ; why then are not all saved ? why is any damned ? is it just with god to torment with everlasting fire , for those sinnes , for which he hath received satisfaction ; and that a more ample one , then mans satisfaction can be , by suffering the torments of hell fire ? for therefore it shall never end , because it shall never satisfie . againe , how many millions were at that time dead and in hell fire ; and did christ satisfy for their sinnes by his death upon the crosse , and they continue still to be tormented ? againe , the obedience of christ in generall , is of a meritorious nature , even meritorious of everlasting life ; now if christ hath merited everlasting life for all and every one , how comes it that all and every one doe not enjoy everlasting life ? shall not god the father deale with his owne sonne according to the exigency of his merits , whether it be that they are so meritorious in their owne nature ; or by the constitution of god ; either meerely , or joyntly with the dignity of their nature , in reference to the dignity of the person who performed them , as being not only man but god , even the eternall son of god one & the same god with his father , blessed for ever . now it can be made good that all sins of all men are fully satisfied for , by the death of christ , & that christ hath merited in better manner everlasting life for all & every one , then they could have done for themselves , although they had passed the whole course of their lives , as free from sinne as the very elect angells ; this i confesse is a comfortable doctrine with a witnesse ; though god leave men to themselves and to the power of their owne free wills to doe what they list . and i see noe reason , but that in the midst of all ryot and excesse , they may be as confident of their salvation , as if they had all faith ; as of certaine lutherans it is written , as i saw in a letter of an english divine writen from rome . i make no question but their answer will be , that albeit christ hath thus satisfied for all sinnes of all and every one , and merited eternall life for all and every one , yet the benefit of his merits and satisfaction by gods ordinance shall redound to none , but such as believe , and repent , and persevere therein unto death . and what comfort can herehence arise to an afflicted soule , unlesse she doe believe and repent ? if she doe believe and repent , our doctrine gives assurance to such of their election , the arminian doth not . here i presume they will say , that every one may believe if he will , repent if he will ; and may they not as well say , that every soule afflicted with despaire , may leave of to despaire if they will , and consequently leave of to be afflicted if they will ? and i confesse this way of consolation hath a very short cut , if the afflicted soul would harken unto them . especially considering that i doe not find , that in these their discourses they take any notice of any sinne to hinder this , no not so much as of the sinne against the holy ghost , or of that sinne which s t john calleth a sinne unto death . but i doe much doubt whether this were the manner of comfort which the prophet esay thought himselfe enabled for by gods grace , when he sayd , the lord god hath given me the tongue of the learned , that i should know how to speake a word in season to him that is weary : he wakeneth morning by morning , he wakeneth mine eare to heare as the learned . wherefore let me make bold in behalfe of the patient , to move unto you a question : doth not the scripture teach us that faith is the gift of god , that repentance is the gift of god ? act : . . tim : . , how then is it possible for me to believe and repent , unlesse god give me the grace of faith and repentance ? i presume you will answer , that god gives faith and repentance , first , in as much as he gives all men power to believe and repent , and secondly , in as much as he concurres with them to the act of faith and repentance in case they will. but i pray thee tell me , is not the will to repent also the gift of god ? and if i have not as yet the will to repent , how is it possible i should repent ? can any man repent without a will to repent ? is not repentance chiefly the charge of the will ? but you will say ( i suppose ) that even this will to repent god is ready to worke in me , if i will repent . but in case a man will repent , what need hath he of any divine assistance to cause in him this will to repent , seeing he hath it already ? lastly , doth not god give a man a power to refuse to believe , to refuse to repent if he will ? and is he not as ready to concurre with him to any sinfull act if he will , and to worke the very will also of doing it in case he will ? and are not these then the gifts of god as well as others ? to conclude , what think you of the gift of faith , hath christ merited it for us or no ? it seemes by your doctrine he hath not ; as when you teach that albeit christ hath satisfied for all , merited everlasting life for all ; yet the benefit of christ obedience and death , is by the ordinance of god applyable to none , but such as have faith : wherby it appears , that you do not make faith to be any of those benefits , which redound unto us by the obedience of christ . for though it be decent to say , that salvation as a benefit procured by christs obedience , can redound to none but to such as believe ; yet it is very indecent to say , that faith it selfe , as a benefit of christs death , shall by the ordinance of god redound to none but to such as believe . and indeed the remonstrants now adaies , doe openly professe , that christ merited faith for none . and they are to be commended for dealing ingenuously , and confessing that , whereunto the genius of their tenet doth carry them . our arminians deale not so plainly : but as they pretend that faith and repentance are the gifts of god ; so they pretend that christ merited them for us , to wit , he merited universall grace for all and every one , whereby every man may believe if he will , and repent if he will. and how comfortable this particular is , i have already shewed ; for it is as much as to say , you may cease to despaire if you will , you may cease to be afflicted if you will. secondly , christ merited , that god should concurre to the working of faith and repentance in them , provided that they would worke it in them selves . yea the very will to believe and repent , god will worke in them modo velint . so that still the resolution of all comfort , is into a mans owne free-will ; for god gives not faith and repentance to whom he will , or according to the meere pleasure of his will , but rather according to mens workes . and this direct pelagianisme , condemned so many hundred years agoe , is that most comfortable doctrine of christianity , which our arminians doe afford . and this discourse as touching the universality of christs death , may be applyed also to the universality of gods love , which ends in this , that all men shall be saved if they doe believe ; and that every man may believe if he will ; and that god is ready to worke faith and repentance in them , provided that they will be as ready to worke it in themselves . . and now i come to this authors third topick place of consolation , drawn from the universality of the covenant of grace . now this is as strange as any of the former , or rather much more , and when the covenant of grace is so much enlarged , we have cause to feare that it is confounded with the covenant of workes . and indeed if it were true , as some of this sect professe , namely , that there is an universall grace given to al for the enlivening of their wills , wherby they are enabled to will any spirituall good whereunto they shall be excited ; and to believe if they will , and from the love of temporall things to convert themselves to the keeping of gods commandements if they will ; i see no reason but that the law is able to give life , though the apostle supposeth the contrary ; and the way is as open unto man for justification by the workes of the law as it was unto adam in the state of innocency . and if the covenant of grace be universall , and ever was , for that i take to be this authours meaning , then god was no more the god of abraham , and of his seed , then of all the world ; nether was the people of israel more the lords portion then any other nation of the world : yet moses was sent unto pharaoh in their behalfe with this message ; thus sayth the lord , israell is my sonne , my first borne , wherefore i say unto thee , let my sonne goe that he may serve mee ; if thou refuse to let him goe , behold i will slay thy sonne even thy first borne ex : . , . thus god accounts them albeit they were miserably corrupted with idolatry ; as it appeares . ez : . . in the day that i lift up my hand upon them , to bring them forth of the land of egypt ; . then sayd i unto them , let every one cast a way the abominations of his eies , and defile not your selves with the idolls of egypt ; for i am the lord your god. . but they rebelled against me , and would not heare me ; for none cast away the abominations of their eyes ; neither did they forsake the idolls of egypt : then i thought to poure out mine indignation upon them and to accomplish my wrath against them in the midst of the land of egypt ; . but i had respect unto my name that it should not be polluted of the heathen . so he proceded in despite of their sinnes , to carry them out of the land of egypt ; and brought them into the wildernesse and gave them statutes , and judgments , and his sabaths ; v : , , . but they rebelled against him in the wildernesse , whereupon he thought againe to poure out his indignation upon them in the wildernesse to consume them v. . but he had respect unto his name , v. . amd his eie spared them and would not destroy them v. . and againe , when their children provoked him by rebelling against him , whereupon he thought of powring out his indignation upon them v. . neverthelesse he withdrew his hand , and had respect unto his name v. . then as touching the generation of that present time he professeth he will rule them with a mighty hand v. . and the issue thereof is no worse then this , i will cause you to passe under the rod , and bring you into the bond of the covenant v. , and againe , marke with what a gratious promise he concludes v. . there shall ye remember your wayes and all the workes wherein ye have been defiled , and ye shall judge yourselves worthy to be cast of for all your evills , which you have committed . and ye shall know that i am the lord , when i have respect unto you for my names sake and not after your wicked waies , nor according to your corrupt worke , o yee house of israel , saith the lord god. here is the peculiar fruit of the covenant of grace , to master their iniquities , to bring them unto repentance , and to deliver them , from the dominion of sinne and satan . if god performe this grace to all and every one throughout the world , then is the covenant of grace universall , and all and every one are under it , but if there be few , very few , over whom sinne hath not the dominion , then certainly very few are under the covenant of grace . for the apostle plainly signifyeth this , to be the fruit of the covenant of grace ; where he saith , sinne shall not have dominion over you , for ye are not under the law but under grace , rom : . . and the like we have , heb. . . i will make with the house of judah a new testament . . not like the testament that i made with their fathers , in the day that i tooke them by the hands to lead them out of the land of egypt : for they continued not in my testament , and i regarded them not , saith the lord. . for this is the testament that i will make with the house of israell , after those dayes , saith the lord , i will put my lawes in their mind , and in their heart i will write them , and i will be their god , and they shall be my people . . and they shall not teach every man his neighbour , and every man his brother saying , know the lord : for all shall know me from the least of them to the greatest of them . . for i will be mercyfull unto their unrighteousnesse , and i will remember their sinnes , and their iniquities no more . according to this covnant proceed those gratious promises , whereof the scriptures are full . i have seen his wayes , and i will heale them . es : . . i will heale their rebellions . hos . . . the lord will subdue our iniquities . mich. . i will circumcise your hearts , and the hearts of your children , to love me with all your heart , and with all your soule deut . . i am the lord your god which sanctify you , &c : and therefore these comforts which here are so much magnified , as only and fully sufficient for the releeving of an afflicted soul in the hour of temptation , are but so many lies ( to speake in the prophets phrase ) that this author holds in his right hand ; and if through the illusions of satan he take hold of them , they may cast him into a dreame , like unto the dreame of an hungry man , who eateth and drinketh and maketh merry , but when he awaketh his soule is empty . for all these comforts so magnificently set forth , have no force , save in case a man believe them now , if a man believeth , our doctrine can assure him of everlasting life ; and so of his election , which the arminian cannot . for we teach that which our saviour hath taught us , he that believeth in the son hath everlasting life ; and he that obayeth not the sonne shall not see life , but the wrath of god abideth upon him : but as for the performing of faith , they leave that unto man , together with gods concurrence . and in like sort for the maintenance of their faith , they teach a man to put his trust in himself with gods concurrence , as if otherwise a mans condition were uncomfortable , and the way were open to desperation . but what doth austin answer to such like discourses of old , de predest : sanct : cap : . an vero timendum est , ne nunc de se homo desperet , quando spes ejus demonstratur ponenda in deo , non autem desperaret si eam in se ipso superbissimus & infelicissimus poneret ? is it to be feared , least a man despaire , when it is proved , that a mans hope is to be placed in god , and that he is free from despaire , in case he place his hope in himselfe , most proudly , and most unhappily ? as for that which he cites out of melancthon , it is every way as much to the purpose as that which he cited out of calvin in the first section . melancthon sayeth we must judge of gods will by his word ; so saith calvin , his words are these ; qui recte atque ordine electionem investigant qualiter in verbo continetur , eximium inde referunt consolationis fructum . to enquire after a mans election in the word is the way to reape singular consolation ; but they that enquire after the eternall counsell of god without the word in exitialem abyssum se ingurgitant ; they plung themselves into a gulfe of perdition . yet when melancthon sayeth , multa disput antur durius , the comparative there is not to be rendred as this authour renders it more harshly , but rather thus , somwhat harshly . and of melancthons concurrence with calvin , in the doctrine of predestination , as touching the substance of the doctrine , i have formerly shewed out of his owne epistle , who professeth that he differeth only tradendi ratione in the manner of delivering it ; and of his owne , professeth that they are of a popular nature , thus , mea sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & adusum accommodata ; as it were woven with a thicker thred , and fited to use and practise . no man doubts but that as melanchton saith it is gods immutable commandement to heare the son , and to assent to the promise ; and the promise is universall , to wit , that , whosoever believeth shall be saved : therefore let us not seeke election besides the word ; it is a grave counsell , and well becomming melancthon ; and calvin gives the very same councell , in the very booke , chapter , and section last related by this author . but he saw it fitter for his turne to represent melancthon professing as much , rather then calvin . we nothing doubt but god will performe that he hath promised ; and therefore whosoever believeth shall be saved according to our doctrine , not so according to the doctrine of arminians ; who maintaine that a man may totally and finally fall away from faith . rogers upon the articles of the church of england , art. . not only acknowledgeth this universality of gods promises , according to the tenor of that article ; but concludeth herehence that they are not to be heard that say , that the number of the elect is but small ; and seeing we are uncertaine whether we be of that company or no , we will proceed in our course as we have begunne ; and accompts all such adversaries of this truth , touching the universality of gods promises : and let every sober man judge whether this author doth not justify this their discourse , whom he accompts adversaries to the truth of that article in that particular . the same rogers in his proposition , as touching the comfortable nature of predestination , writs thus , this doctrine of predestination is to the godly , ful sweet , pleasant , and comfortable , because it greatly confirmeth their faith in christ , and encreaseth their love towards god. but ( saith he ) to the wicked and reprobate the consideration hereof is very sower , unsavory , and most uncomfortable , as that which they think ( though very untruly and sinfully ) causeth them either to despaire of his mercy being without faith ; or not to feare his justice being extreamely wicked ; whereas neither from the word of god , nor any confession of the church can man gather that he is a vessell of wrath , prepared to damnation . what more contradictions to this authors discourse of the uncomfortable condition of predestination , according to our way ; yet who was this authour ? was he at any time accompted an innovatour in this church ? his books dedicated to arch-bishop bancroft , writing upon the articles of the church of england ; perused , and by the lawfull authority of the church of england allowed to be publick . and because some choosing to play at small game rather then sit out , may say , that he speakes not a word of absolute election , or absolute reprobation ; let his . proposition be observed , which is this , of the meere pleasure of god , some men in christ jesus are elected , and not others unto salvation : this he prooves by that rom. . . that the purpose of god might remaine according to election . and that eph. . . who doth predestinate us according to the good pleasure of his will : and that tim. . . not according to our workes , but according to his owne purpose and grace : and that exod. . . and rom. . . i will shew mercy to whom i will shew mercy : and as touching the other part of not choosing others , that of solomon prov. . . the lord hath made all things for his owne sake , yea even the wicked against the day of evill . and rom. . . hath not the potter power over the clay to make of the same lumpe one vessell unto honour , and an other unto dishonour . and comming unto the errours , and adversaries of this truth . hereby ( saith he ) is discovered the impiety of those men which think that , . man doth make himselfe elegible for the kingdome of heaven , by his owne good workes and merits ; so teach the papists . . god beheld in every man whether he would use his grace well , and believe the gospell or no , and as he saw man , so he did predestinate choose or refuse him . . besides his will , there was some other cause in god , why he chose one man , and cast off another , but this cause is hidden from us . . god is partiall and unjust for choosing some , and refusing others ; calling many and electing but few . the other place alleadged by this author of melancthon , partly repeates the same matter concerning the universality of the promises , ( no mention at all with him either of the universality of gods love , or of the universality of christs death , or of the universality of the covenant of grace ) partly opposeth it to dangerous imaginations of predestination ; & what are these but such as proceed without the word . for without doubt it is to be understood in opposition to that which he formerly delivered , advising us to judge of the will of god by his expresse word ; and all one with seeking election extra verbum formerly specified : of both which calvin speakes more at large in that very place aleadged by this author in the first section of this last sort of arguments ; and there calvin commends the one as a most comfortable course , and sets forth the danger of the other in farre more emphaticall manner then melancthon doth , and therewithall discovereth the true balme of gilead , wherein it consists , in the same manner that melancthon doth , and more fully : but it served not this authors turne to represent calvin thus discoursing , though he could not be ignorant there of , if himselfe read the place , which he alleadgeth out of calvin and tooke it not upon trust at anothers hand . by the way i observe he makes the universality of the promise , mentioned by melancthon , all one with the universality of the covenant of grace mentioned by him . as if the covenant of grace consisted only in this , whosoever believes shall be saved ; and accordingly you may guesse of his meaning as touching the universality of christs death , namely , that the benefit thereof shall redound to all that believe ; as good as in plaine termes to professe , that christ dyed not to procure and merit faith for us , which the remonstrants doe now adaies openly professe ; but i doe not find that our arminians hitherto dare to concurre with them therein . and in like manner the universality of gods love is to be understood ; namely , of willing salvation to as many as believe , not of willing grace unto them , at least not of any meaning to bestow faith and repentance upon them . yet not any will yet shew themselves so ingenuous as to confesse in plain termes , that god gives not faith and repentance to any man , but leaves that to be wrought by the power of their wills , pretending that god hath enabled all men with a power to believe . and indeed if faith and repentance be a gift , and speciall gift of god ; it is strange that god should bestow them upon us extra christum , not for christ sake ; and whence it followeth that those gratious promises of circumcising our hearts , of sanctifying us , of writing his law in our mind and inward parts , and his feare in our hearts ; never to depart from him , of healing our wayes , our backslidings , our rebellions ; of taking away the stony heart out of our bowels and giving us a heart of flesh ; and causing us to walke in his statutes , and keepe his judgements , and doe them , are nothing belonging to the covenant of grace in this authors judicious consideration . and to conclude , if all men be under the covenant of grace , what force or substance at all is there in that promise which god makes unto his people of israell , namely , that he will cause them to passe under the rodde , and bring them unto the bond of the covenant . as also in that ezek. . . i will remember my covenant made with thee in the dayes of thy youth , and i will confirme unto thee an everlasting covenant . . then shalt thou remember thy wayes and be ashamed , when thou shalt receive thy sisters , both thy elder and thy younger and i will give them unto thee for daughters , but not by thy covenant . . and i will establish my covenant with thee , and thou shalt know that i am the lord. i come to the consideration of the reasons why these grounds are ( pretended to be ) able to healpe in such a case , . because they are directly contradictory to the temptation ; a will to save all , a givinig of christ to death for all , and an offer of grace to all , cannot possibly stand with an absolute anticedent will , and intent of casting a way the greatest part of mankind , or indeed any one man in the world . to this i answer . . though they be contradictory to the temptation , yet if they carry manifest evidence of notorious untruths in their foreheads , delivered as they are without explication , what true comfort shall an afflicted soule receive therehence , when by embracing them he shall but hould a lye in his right hand ? for doe not these comforters themselves acknowledge , that god hath from everlasting decreed the damnation of the greatest part of men ? yet they would have a poore afflicted soule believe that notwithstanding this he wills the salvation of all , even of them whom he hath appointed unto wrath ; it is the apostles phrase thess . . . to endeavour to perswade them of this , what is it but to make a sickly creature to feed on fire , or digest iron , as if that could ever turne into good nourishment . in like sort to perswade him that christ hath made satisfaction for all the sins of al mē , & merited salvatiō for all & every one ; when , notwithstanding christs merits of their salvation , the greatest part of the world shall not be saved ; and notwithstanding christs satisfaction for their sinne , they must be put to satisfy for them , & that by suffering the torments of hell fire , & that for ever . . let these points be explicated , & then no comfort at all will appeare therehence to an afflicted soule in some case ; as for example , when they shall understand that gods love tends only to the saving of them in case they believe , & repent , & mortify the deeds of the flesh , & persevere in such like gracious courses unto death : alas what comfort is this to a sick soule , when he feeles in himselfe no power to believe , no power to repent , no power to any spirituall good , contrary wise prone to evill , either not taking delight in gods word , or nothing profiting by it ; will it suffice to out face them herein , & tell thē they have power to believe if they will , to repent if they will to mortify the deeds of the flesh if they will ; to crucify the affections & lusts if they will , yea to have victory over the world if they will , and to quench all the fiery darts of the devill if they will ? and withall that their wills are enlivened to will any of all these , yea to will all these , and any other spirituall good whereunto they shall be excited ? whereas the scripture teacheth us , that men are dead in sinne , before the time of their effectuall calling ; and that such was the condition of the ephesians , before the gospell was preached to them , and they converted by it ; and that till they embrace the gospell , all men are led captive by the divell , to doe his will. . what poore comfort is this to perswade a man , that he is no absolute reprobate ; when upon the same grounds , namely , that the number of reprobates is farre greater even an hundred for one , then the number of gods elect , he may still be perplexed with doubts and feares , yea and with as strong an apprehension that he is a reprobate . and amongst all the examples that i have lighted upon , of desperation upon this ground , they have not proceeded according to this distinction of reprobats absolute or not absolute , but simply upon an apprehension that they were reprobates , & that not upon the consideration of the small number of gods elect , and the vast number of reprobates , but upon the conscience of some sinne or other , which they conceived to be unpardonable , a sinne unto death , a sinne against the holy ghost , and that particularly consisting in opposing gods truth , or blaspheming it , or making warre against it : which i would this author might be pleased well to consider before his feet be too much fastned in the mire , and there be no getting out of it . his second reason followeth . . because they convince the tempted that he cannot be in that condition in which he supposeth himselfe to be , for two contradictoryes cannot be true . this is no new reason at all , but a meere application of the reason formerly delivered . but this author considers not how he marres his owne course of consolation , casting his spirituall patient to believe hand over head things directly contradictory , as namely , that god wills the salvation even of those whom he hath from everlasting ordayned unto damnation ; and is not his patient like to take much comfort in this speculation ; namely , that albeit he be one of those whom god hathordained to condemnation , yet he wills his salvation . what a poore comfort is it to conceive that though god will have him to be damned , yet not inevitably ; whereas gods will is as effectuall in bringing contingent things to passe contingently , as in bringing necessary things to passe necessarily : so raine to morrow is a contingent thing , yet god can bring it to passe as infallibly , though in a contingent manner , as he brings to passe the rising of the sunne . what comfort to a poore afflicted soule , that though god wils his condemnation , yet not absolutely but respectivly ; ( for these termes alone doe stand in proper oppositiō in the judgment of arminians ) to wit , that he will not damne him but for his sinne . as for the consolation here ministred , that god would have all and every one ( for unlesse it proceed in that sence it is nothing to the purpose , ) to be saved , redeemed , and called to repent and believe ; this is full of collusion : first in mixing many things together of a different nature ; for as for the two first , that will , they have to proceed meerly conditionally , to wit , in case they believe and repent ; manifestly implying , that the divine gift of faith and repentance , is no benefit of christs redemption , nor any of those good things which christ hath merited for us . now as for the rest he was ashamed to professe in the same tenor , that god would have all to believe and repent but only called to believe and repent . but seeing it is apparent that all are not called , i presume this calling is to be understood also not absolutely but conditionally ; now the condition thereof certainly is not faith and repentance , but somewhat else , which he expresseth not . and is it not requisite the patient which is to be raised and releeved should be acquainted with this condition , which yet is no where mentioned ( as i remember ) throughout this discourse ? but be it that god will have this poore soule to be saved and redeemed in case he believe and repent ; unlesse god also willeth his faith and repentance , what doore of hope or consolation is opened to the poore , soule yet dwelling in the valley of achor ? i wonder not a little what he meant to say only , god we will have all to be called , to believe and repent , and not to speake home and say , god will have all to believe and repent for what ? doth he not indeed acknowledge faith & repentance to be the gifts of god ; and if he doth give them , did he not from everlasting will to give them ? will you give me leave to guesse at the mistery of his meaning in this ? had he sayd , god will have all to believe and repent , as he sayeth , god will have all to be saved and redeemed ; like as their meaning is well knowne as touching gods will to save , namely , upon condition & that condition also is well knowne to be faith and repentance : in like sort had he sayd god will have all to believe and repent , he saw belike this would have brought upon him more trouble then he would well brooke ; to wit , by demanding whether god will have all to believe ond repent absolutely or conditionally : not absolutely i presume , least so they should grant election unto faith & repentance to be absolute ; therefore they must be driven to shew upon what condition god will have men to believe & repent , that is , upon that condition god doth bestow faith & repentance upon men . now they are very loath to come to this . but is it not fit that the soule which is to be comforted upon this ground should be throughly acquainted with this condition ? for it is a vain thing to discourse of a power in man to believe and repent , and to say it is given them by the grace of god , considering that the scripture is not more pregnantly averse from countenancing any such power granted unto all ; as it is cleare , it professeth faith and repentance to be the gift of god , and consequently no man can exercise that pretended power without a farther grace , whereby god gives faith it selfe , and repentance it selfe , and not only a power to believe , and a power to repent . therefore it is very necessary for an afflicted soule , that is to be comforted upon this ground ; to have this mistery revealed unto her , namely , upon what condition god will give one faith and repentance . but this author keepes himselfe close in this poynt , and budgeth not for feare , belike of discovering some mistery of iniquity on their part . but whiles he conceales this , doth he not play the part of a proper mountebanke , when he pretends the selling of balme , and soveraigne oyles , when indeed he meanes only to juggle and collude with his spectators ? and there is good reason why he should conceale this , or rather i doubt whether he that shewes himselfe on the stage herein , is sufficiently acquainted with the mistery himselfe ; for whereas they cannot endure , that god should absolutely dispense the grace of faith and repentance to whom he will , but upon a condition to be performed on mans part : hence it manifestly followes , that the grace of faith and repentance is collated by god , according to mens workes , which is plain pelagianisme , and condemned above years agoe , in the synod of palestine , and in no orthodoxe synod or councell reversed or retracted ever since . another reason there is of this concealement , and that is to prevent the manifestation of the strange absurdity of their tenet , discoverable by the light of nature ; for the condition of gods working faith and repentance in us , is this , modo nos velimus credere & resipiscere ; as much as to say , as many as will believe shall believe , which is as true of the most sinfull act that is committed by man , that god gives it in the same manner . and more then this they dare not deny , but that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle is the gift of god , but modo velimus , whereby it comes to passe , that the act of willing is the condition of it selfe , and consequently , both before and after it selfe . and these shamefull issues doe justly befall them , because they abhorre to professe , that god causeth us to walke in his statutes , and to keepe his judgements , and doe them . the course that junius took to quiet her conscience , who thought she was damned for neglecting to goe to masse , by proving unto her that the masse was a meere wil-worship , was faire and reasonable , but the course this author takes to comfort an afflicted soule , i have shewed to be most unreasonable . absolute reprobate hath a different sense , according as it is differently applyed , if applyed unto damnation , or the denyall of glory ; we utterly deny that either the one is inflicted , or glory is denyed absolutely , but meerely upon supposition of sinne . but applyed to grace , we willingly confesse , that god doth absolutely give the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance , to whom he will , according to that of saint paul , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . rom. . . compared with rom. . . where to shew mercy , is apparently to bring men unto faith ; neither can it have any other sense , rom. . . being set in opposition to hardening ; and in reference to the objection rising therehence , in the words following . thou wilt say then , why doth he yet complaine , for who hath resisted his will : v. . and while this author denies that faith and repentance are given according to the good pleasure of gods will , which is to give them absolutely ; he must be driven to confesse , that they are given conditionally : and if a man will take any comfort therehence , he must be acquainted with the condition , which yet this author , undertaking the office of consolation upon this ground , doth from the first to the last conceale , as if he feared to discover the shamefull nakednesse of his cause , which i have adventured to display , and whereof i desire the indifferent reader would judge . so that indeed this discourse is a new snare rather , to entangle a poore soule in sadnesse and heavinesse inextricable , fowler-like , then any true office of consolation , where she may escape as a bird , out of the first snare of the fowler , by breaking it and delivering her . indeed these grounds of hope and comfort , a minister cannot make use of , that holds absolute reprobation . what sober man would expect he should : but such a one is never a whit the worse comforter for that ; for as for these grounds , i have already discovered them , to be voyd of all truth , of all sobriety . for if men be not absolutely reprobated from the grace of faith and of repentance , but conditionally , ( for as for the denying of glory , or inflicting damnation , we utterly deny that god hath decreed that they shall have their course absolutely according to the meere pleasure of his will , having made a law according whereunto he purposeth to proceed therein ) it became this author , performing the part of a comforter on this ground , to make knowne the condition which he utterly declineth . and with all i have shewed the reasons of his carriage thus in hugger mugger , to wit , that their shamefull tenets might not breake forth , and be brought to light , we abhorre to say that god gives the grace of faith and repentance according to mens workes ; wee abhorre to say that god workes in men the act of believing and repenting , provided they will believe and repent ; or that he workes in them the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle of every good worke modovelint . but our comsolations proceed , as i have shewed , in this manner , if any man man doth believe and repent , we can assure such a one by our doctrine that he is an elect of god ; this arminians by their doctrine cannot , as who maintaine that a true believer may fall a way from grace and be damned ; which is to hold the soules of the best children of god upon the rack of feares , and terrours , and tortures continually , and make them walke as it were upon pinacles of the temple ; for they have no assurance of stedfastnesse , but in their owne wills , to keepe them from dropping into hell fire , which burneth under them . if men doe not believe and repent ; we will enquire into the cause of their feares & grounds of their apprehentions that they are reprobates ; and shew that they have no just cause for such apprehensions whether it be the conscience of their sinne ; or want of faith that doth affright them ; for as much as the holiest mē living before their calling , had as great cause to be affrighted as they ; yet had they thereupon conceived themselves to be reprobates , this had been but an erronious conceit . if perhaps it be not the conscience of sinne in generall , that affrights them , but rather the conscience of some sinne in speciall , which they conceive to be a sinne unto death , or a sinne against the holy ghost , which they conceive to be unpardonable ; we will conferre with them thereabouts , and try whether they understand aright the nature of that sinne , and endeavour to scatter those mists of illusions in this particular , which satan hath raised , desiring to swallow them up in desperation ; if it doe not prove to be a sinne against the holy ghost , we will set them in a course to get the spirit of faith and of repentance . for albeit god alone can give them , yet seeing his word is a word of power , even a voyce that pearceth the graves ; we willperswade them to give themselves to be wrought upon by gods word , and we will pray for them who yet want spirit to pray for themselves . and albeit they cannot prepare themselves in a gratious manner to the hearing of gods word , yet let them come ; and when they are come let his word worke ; yet if forthwith we have not that comfortable experience of gods goodnesse towards us , let us not give over to wait at the lords gates , and to give attendance at the posts of his doore . give him leave to be the master of his own times , let us not prescribe unto him ; we know his course is to call some at one houre of the day some at an other , and at the very last hour he calleth some . this is the way of consolation that we take . we doe not take any such course as this author at his pleasure obtrudes upon us , that god would have all to be saved , and that christ died for all ; i have allready set forth this authors collusions in his triple universality of gods love , christs death , and and of the covenant of grace . we rather will exhort him to believe , and herein we will take such course as god in his word hath directed us unto ; and we will pray unto god that his word may be , as the raine that cometh downe , and the snow from heaven & returneth not thither , but watereth the earth , and maketh it bring forth , & bu●d hat it may give seed to the sower , and bread to him that eateth . so his word may be that goeth out of his mouth , it may not returne unto him voyd , but accomplish that which he will , and proper in the thing whereto he sends it , and remove all vaine grounds of apprehensions of terrible things against themselves ; what if a great many be reprobated from grace , and shall never have any part in christ ? it doth not follow that this afflicted soule is any of them ; what one is there of the children of god which was not sometimes dead in sinne : and if pangs of childbirth goe before the delivering of a child into the world of nature , why should it seeme strange that pangs of childbirth are suffered before a man be brought forth in to the world of grace ? and these feares and terrours wherwith this poore soule is perplexed , may be unto her as pangs of childbirth , to bring her forth into a new world . we say that by gods word we are to conceive that ye are elected upon our faith and repentance ; thus paul concluded the election of the thessalonians . thess . . , . and thess . . . thus melancthon would have us seeke it ; but by the arminian doctrine it is in vaine to seeke after it , for as much as none can find it . we acknowledge that as our saviour saith , few are chosen , therefore we admonish every one , to strive to enter in at the straight gate . this was our saviours exhortation , delivered by way of answer to a question made unto him by his apostles , whether there were but few that should be saved . we teach that christ hath died for the people of god , for the elect of god , for his church , for his body , not only to make satisfaction for sinne , and to procure salvation for them , in case they believe , but to procure also the holy spirit for them to make them believe and repent , &c. and this is wrought by the word , which is the sword of the spirit . we take not the course he obtrudes upon us ; we make no such distinctions for the consolation of the afflicted as he faignes : we deale plainly , and spare not to professe , that albeit salvation is open to all that believe , and that by the ordinance of god ; yet that no man is able of himselfe to believe or repent , for as much as the scripture testifies , that all are dead in sinne in the state of nature , and led captive by the divell to doe his will ; and that the very law of god , doth strengthen sinne , such being the course of mans corruption , that the more he is forbidden this or that , the more it provokes him to transgresse , taking occasion by the law to work in mans heart all manner of concupiscence ; this is our course , to beat downe the pride of man , and beat out of him all conceit of ability to doe any good , as of himselfe ; and so to cast him downe at the feet of gods mercy . yet god is able by his grace to quicken him ; and being brought up in the church of god , wherein is the balme of gilead able to heale our waies be they never so sinfull and that that is administred , not according to the vile workes of men , ( as if they had , any power to prepare them for the participation of gods grace , ) but of the meere favour and good pleasure of god , who calleth ( as the apostle speakes tim. . . ) with an holy calling , not according to our own workes , but according to his own purpose and grace ; and that for the merits of christ , who hath merited not only pardon of sinne and salvation for all that believe , but faith also , and regeneration for all his elect ; and being as we are members of gods church , we have no cause to despaire , but sooner or later god may call us as continually he doth some or other , and we know not how soone our turne may come . and as for gods purpose touching the performance of the condition of faith ; we plainly professe , that god purposed to give faith and repentance only to his elect , according to that , act. . . as many believed , as were ordained to everlasting life ; and acts . last . god added daily to his church such as should be saved . now heare i pray their doctrine on the other side , which set out our manner of consolation , devised most ridiculously at their own pleasure , so to expose our doctrine to scorne . doth god purpose to bestow faith and repentance upon any other besides his elect ? this they must avouch if they contradict us , and that he purposeth to bestow it on all and every one ; but how ? not absolutely on any , that is , not according to the meere pleasure of his will ; how then ? surely conditionally , to wit , according to mens workes ; that so not semi-pelagianisme only , but plain pelagianisme may be commended unto gods church for true christianisme . and what is that worke in man , whereupon god workes faith or repentance in them ? surely the will to believe , the will to repent . so that if all men will believe , will repent , then in good time through gods grace they shall believe , they shall repent ; and if this be not to crowne gods grace with a crowne of scornes , as christ himselfe was crowned with a crowne of thornes , i willingly professe i know not what it is . we utterly deny that god hath two wills , one contrary to the other . we acknowledge that in scripture phrase gods commandement is called his will , as , this is the will of god even your sanctification , thess . . . but this is not that will of god which the apostle speakes of , when he saith , who hath resisted his will , rom. . , for his will of commandement is resisted too oft . but the will he speaketh off , there is the will of gods purpose and decree , whereof the psalmist speakes , saying , whatsoever the lord will that hath he done both in heaven and earth . now suppose god command abraham to sacrifice his sonne isaack , and yet decrees that isaack shall not be sacrificed , both which are as true , as the word of god is true , yet there is no contradiction . for as much as his commandement signifies only gods will , what shall be abrahams duty to doe , not what shall be done by abraham ; on the other side gods decree signifies what shall not be done by abraham . now what contradiction i pray is there betweene these , it is gods will that it shall be abrahams duty to sacrifice isaack , but it is not gods will that isaack shall be sacrificed by abraham ; for as much as when abraham comes to the poynt of sacrificing isaack , the lord purposeth to hold his hand . in like manner god commanded pharaoh to let israell goe ; it was his will then , that it should be pharaohs duty to let israel goe ; but withall he to●d moses that he would harden pharaohs heart , that he should not let israel goe ; whereby it is man i● est , that god decreed that israel should not be dismissed by pharaoh for a while , and that ( as is signified in the text ) to make way for his judgements to be brought upon the land of egypt , whereby god meant to glorify himselfe , as in the sight of pharaoh , and of his egyptians , so in the sight of the children of israel , and of the bordering nations ; no contradiction at all in this , no more then gods word is found to contradict it selfe . and nothing but ignorance makes our adversaries so bold as to impute contradiction to us in this . we grant willingly that god did intend that most should never believe and repent ; for as much as he intended to deny the gift of faith and repentance unto most , as it is apparent he doth ; neither dares any arminian deny it . only they feigne , that god would give faith and repentance unto all , in case they would prepare themselves ; which not only includes manifest pelagianisme , but over and above ends in non-sense , as i have but erst , and often times before , made as cleare as the sunne . gods eternall rejection of many thousands , which is impossible to be avoided , ( for how is it possible , that what was from everlasting , should be avoyded by man or angell , who are brought forth in time , not to have been from everlasting ? ) though it be all one with the answers of the tempted , and is contradictory to the comforts , which this author deviseth out of his own braine , and proposeth too in a most colluding manner , as before i have shewed ; and withall not so well sorting with the manner of comforts which he feignes , and at meere pleasure obtrudes upon us , ( which yet he cannot evacuate without betraying the shamefull nakednesse of his cause , when denying god to bestow the gift of faith and repentance absolutely on whom he will , and according to the meere pleasure of his will , he is driven to manifest how he takes sanctuary in pelagianisme , maintaining the grace of faith and repentance , to be conferred by god on men according to their workes ; and that in a most unsober manner , as i have shewed at large ; ) yet notwithstanding is this eternall decree of god concerning the rejection of man , nothing contrariant to better grounds of consolation ministred by our doctrine , then any can be ministred by arminians : as who doe not so much as undertake to minister better comfort to any , then such as is common to them with reprobates . but as for all those that are brought up in the church of god , who we can assure them that there is no cause ( excepting guilt of that sinne which is unto death , or which is against the holy-ghost ) why any of them should conceive themselves to be reprobates ; nay the affliction of conscience being the most ordinary meanes , whereby god doth prepare men for a comfortable translation out of the state of nature , into the state of grace ; they have cause to conceive comfort in this , that these feares and terrours may be as pangs of child-birth , to deliver their souls into the world of the sons of god ; and this vally of achor , a doore of hope ; & this bethany ( a house of sorrow or mourning ) the high-way unto the vision of peace ; as bethany was commonly taken by our saviour in his way unto jerusalem . for conclusion , we have heard a strange cracking of thornes in this , but all proves but a squibbe ; their best light of consolation , goes out in an unsavoury snuffe of pelagianisme . let us remember , though thunder , and earth-quakes , and lightning , have their course in the vaine imaginations of men , yet god is still and ever will be , in the small voyce of his word . let us give gods truth , the glory of our consolation ; as for errour , and that dangerous errour in defacing the glory of gods grace , let us never seeke any comfort therein , and let them that love it , take what comfort in it they can ; i doe not envy them , but rather pitty them ; i would their hearts served them to have compassion upon them selves . discourse . sect . iv. secondly , it leaves a minister weake grounds only , and insufficient to quiet the tempted , and therefore it makes him unable to comfort . his grounds that are left him are insufficient , because they cannot convince , and make it evident to the understanding of the tempted , that he is not that which he feares ( i. e. ) a reprobate : out of temptation probabilities will uphold a mans hopes , ( as they did manoahs wife : judg. . , . if the lord would kill us he would not have received a burnt offering at our hands , nor shewed us all these things ; ) because men are not so mistrustfull then : but in temptation men are very suspitious and incredulous , like jacob , who would not be perswaded that joseph was alive , and a great man in egypt , till he saw the chariots that were sent to fetch him thither , gen. . . and like thomas , who would not believe that christ was risen till he saw the print of the nailes and speare . iohn . . they will not believe any thing that is said for their comfort , till it be made so apparent , that they have nothing to say to the contrary . my selfe have known some , who in their temptations have often put their comforters to their proofes , to their protestations , nay to their oathes too , before they would believe their words of comfort . and in this temptation , men are so strongly possest with a feare of the greatest evill in the world , eternall rejection from god , that they will not easily , without manifest conviction , believe the contrary . but such grounds as these , a minister that holds absolute reprobation hath not , he can say nothing that is able to make it appeare infallibly , and unavoydably to the tempted , that he is no absolute reprobate . all that he can say is , be of good comfort , you are a believer , you are a true repenting sinner ; therefore no reprobate ; for faith and repentance are fruits of election , and arguments of a state contrary to that which you feare . but this the tempted will deny , he will say that he is no believer , &c. and how will the minister convince him that he is ? he must prove to him by the outward acts of faith and repentance , ( for they are only apparent to him , ) that he doth repent and believe , but this proofe is not demonstrative , doth not convince him , because opera virtutum simulari possunt , the externall acts of saith , repentance or any other grace , may be counterfeited ; the devill may seeme to be an angell of light , wolves may goe in sheepes cloathing ; judas may make the world believe by his preaching and following christ , that he is a true apostle ; and simon magus ( though he remaine in the gall of bitternesse , and bond of iniquity , ) may be thought by his receiving of baptisme , to be a true believer ; and so may any hypocrite by some exterior act , of faith and repentance , cosen the best discerner of spirits among men , and gaine the opinion and esteeme of a true penitent and believer . actions externally good or good in appearance , may be evill indeed for want of a good rule , a good manner , a good end , & some other good circumstances , with which an action which is good must be cloathed [ for bonum non oritur nisi ex integris . ] and so by consequence cannot certainly prove the man that doth them to be a good man , or to have the grace of faith , repentance , or any other , truly planted in his heart . which being so ( i say ) that the minister cannot , by the eternall acts and fruits of faith and repentance , which he seeth come from him , make it evident to the tempted ( for the silencing of all replies ) that he is ( without doubt ) a true believer , and a true repentant , and consequently no reprobate . for still the tempted may say , you may be deceived in me , for you can see not a whit more in me , then hath been seen in many a reprobate ; if this be all you can say to prove me to be none , i am not satisfied , i may be a reprobate , nay i am a reprobate , and you are but a miserable comforter , a physitian of no value . this that i say piseator doth ingeniously confesse , where he saith , that no comfort can possibly be instilled into the soules of reprobates afflicted with this temptation ; whence it followes , that the greatest part of men , must beare their burthen ( if they fall into this trouble ) as wel as they can ; the gospell cannot afford them any sound comfort . . that the elect in this case may be comforted , but it must be this way , viz. by their feeling of the burthen of sinne , and their desire to be freed from it by christ ; which proofs ( as i have said ) are but only probable not infallible arguments of a mans election , and therefore unsufficient comforts . and in the end of the same thesis , where he saith , that a man should reason thus with himselfe , grace is offered to some , with a mind of communicating it to them , therefore it may be that i am in that number ; he implyes that the doctrine of absolute reprobation , which teacheth this communication of grace to some few only , affords but [ a fieri potest ] a peradventure i am elected , for a poore soule to comfort himselfe withall . twisse . consideration . in the last place we are to consider how truly he affirmeth that our doctrine leaveth a minister none but weake grounds , and those insufficient to quiet the tempted . and whereas he saith we cannot conceive , and make it evident to the understanding of the tempted that he is not ( that which he feares ) a reprobate ; we willingly acknowledge it . for not to be a reprobate is to be an elect . now how can any arminian convince and make it evident to the understanding ( i doe not say of the tempted , but ) of one that is a believer , and walkes on comfortablely in the wayes of godlinesse ; is he ( i say ) able to convince such a one , and make it evident unto him that he is one of gods elect ? i doe not think they dare professe that they presume they can ; or make it evident to their owne understanding , that themselves are of the number of gods elect . how unreasonable then is this course , to require of us to convince a man , that acknowledgeth neither faith nor repentance in him , ( for this is the condition of a man tempted , as himselfe fashioneth it ; ) and to make it evident to his understanding that he is an elect and no reprobate ; when himselfe cannot convict him that believeth of this ; no nor their owne consciences neither , notwithstanding all their confidence , that they alone are in the right way of salvation . was there ever heard a more unreasonable course then this ? againe , to feare to be a reprobate , or least he be a reprobate , is one thing , to perswade himselfe that he is a reprobate , and to despaire thereupon , is another thing . we say , and that according to our doctrine , that there is no cause why any man ( who hath not sinned the sinne unto death , the sinne against the holy ghost ) should perswade himselfe that he is a reprobate and despaire thereupon ; we doe not say there is no cause of feare . in as much as he hath no evidence of his election , there is just cause to feare ; but then againe , seeing he neither hath nor can have any evidence of his reprobation ( excepting the guilt of the sinne against the holy ghost ) he hath every way as good cause to hope . and for the comforting of such a one , i would make bold to tell him that there is more hope of such a one as himselfe , then of those who goe on in the wayes of their owne heart , and in the light of their owne eyes without all remorse and check of conscience , without feare or wit , not considering that for all these things god will bring them to judgment . and towards such i would think it fit to use all meanes and motives to make them feare . the apostle seemes to me to take the like course with better men then such , even with such as went on in a faire and comfortable profession of gospell ; namely to make them feare and suspect themselves , as when he saith , prove youre selves whether you are in the faith , examine your selves . know ye not that christ is in you except ye be reprobates . cor. . . and for good reason ; for as paul was jealous over the corinthians with a godly jealousy , for feare , least as the serpent beguilde eve through his subtilty , so their minds should be corrupt from that simplicity which is in christ . cor. . , . and in like manner entertained feare , least when he came he should not find them such as he would , and that he should be found unto them such as they would not &c. cor. . in like manner i should think it is good for a man to be jealous over himselfe with a godly jealousy , least their minds should be corrupt , their wayes corrupt , more then they are a ware of , and there upon give themselves to the examining of themselves and to the searching and trying of their wayes whereunto the holy ghost exhorts us , lament . . . and there is good comfort to be taken in such a jealousy , such a feare , such a course ; for we find that the spirit of bondage making us to feare , is the forerunner of the spirit of adoption , whereby we cry abba father , rom. . . certainely they are in better case , and nearer to the kingdome of god , then such as feare not , yet is their no cause of despaire , for as much as the elect of god had no evidence of their election before their calling ; nay , after their calling they may be much afflicted with the feares and terrours of god , thinking themselves to be in worse case , then indeed they are . david found cause to pray that god would restore him to the joy of his salvation ; yet bertius would not say that david was fallen from grace , and that propter graves causas ; yet who hath written more eagarly to maintaine that saints may fall away from grace then bertius ? but this author beares before him such a spirit of confidence , as if he would have all men ordered by his rules . when manoahs wife , judg. . , . discourseth thus , if the lord would kill us he would not have received a burnt offering at our hands , nor shewed us these things ; he doth obtrude upon us that manoahs wife had no faith , but only a probability of this ; that is his glosse ; yet this acceptation of a burnt offering at their hands was manifested by no lesse then a miracle ; and the difference between abels offering and caines offering is laid downe to be this , that the lord had respect to abel , and to his offering ; but unto cain and to his offering he had no regard . gen. . , . and davids prayer for acceptation , and finding favour at the hands of god is set downe in this manner , amongst other particulars , let him remember all thine offerings , and turne thy burnt offerings into ashes , psal , . . yet why should he conceive that manoah and his wife were not in temptation , and that a very sore one , strēgthened with the expres word of god , namely , that no man can see god & live ; which in these days was generally received amongst thē & applyed by thē in this particular . for manoah said unto his wife , we shall surely dye because we have seen god ; & could a probability to the contrary put by such a temptation as this ? how was the great prophet esay exercised with this when he cryed out , woe is me , for i am undone , because i am a man of polluted lipps , and dwell in the midst of a people of polluted lipps , for mine eyes have seen the king and lord of hosts . what temptation hath he that thinkes himselfe a reprobate like unto this , excepting still the guilte of that sinne which is unto death ? what ground of scripture can they represent to prove that they are reprobates ; as those ancients had ground for this , that they must dye who had seen god ? it is one thing to be in temptation , it is an other thing to yeeld to the temptation , and to be overcome with it ; and that upon no ground , which yet this author confounds , as a course very propitious for his turne , and suitable with the part that he acteth . as for jacob , the cause was this , he that now enjoyed as it were , the death of joseph for many yeares ; his sonnes pretending they knew not what became of him ; yet brought his coat imbrued with bloud unto their old father , who there upon conceived some evill beast had devoured him ; and who could expect that at the first hearing he should believe now the report of the same sonnes to the contrary ; especially considering how those brethren of ioseph were astonished when joseph himselfe told them , saying , i am joseph , doth my father yet live ? for the text saith , his brethren could not answer him , for they were astonished at his presence . and though iacob at the first believed not the report , they made to be true , yet neither is it said , or likely , that he believed it to be false . but the text saith , his heart failed him , denoting a condition betweene hope and feare , as the geneva noteth in the margent . as for thomas his incredulity , which he ascribeth unto a temptation ; he may as well ascribe the infidelity of turkes & jewes unto a temptation . the person tempted here represented doth not say ( i hope ) as thomas did , except i see in his hands the print of the nailes , and put my finger into the print of the nayles , and put my hand into his side i will not believe it . and what power doe arminians attribute unto temptation , doe they ascribe more unto it , then to the operation of god which with them extends no farther then this , as touching grace , then to excite them to believe , which yet they may resist if they will ? and may they not also resist the divells temptations if they will ? especially considering that in perswading them that they are reprobates the divell proceeds upon no ground , which is not common to every one of gods elect , when he saith they will not believe any thing that is said for their comfort , till it be made so apparent that they have nothing to say to the contrary . it seemes this author hath had some extraordinary experience of the condition of persons tempted , i had thought the condition of persons ( not tempted only , but ) giving way to the temptation , had been for the most part unreasonable , untill it pleaseth god to bring them to their right wits : and like as feares property is to betray the succours that reason offereth ; so is the devills practice to take them off from attending that to they cannot answer , and holding them to their uncomfortable conclusions , in despight of the weaknesse of their own premises and strength of contrary principles ; excepting the case of finning against the holy ghost , which was the case of francis sptra , and accordingly his conclusions were most true as his premises strong ; and his comforters had little or nothing to say to the contrary . and in such a case the only course to quench the fiery darts of desperation , is to enquire diligently about the matter of fact , whether he hath committed any such sinne as he layeth to his charge ; and thereupon to discourse of the nature of that sinne , which is commonly called a sinne unto death , and not only so , but a sinne against the holy ghost , which our saviour pronounceth to be unpardonable ; and the apostle signifieth as much , when he saith that in such a case , there is no more sacrifice for sinne , but a fearfull expectation of fire . and it may be , this authors discourse , runneth with reference to such examples as this of spira , but fashioned at pleasure to serve his turne , as formerly he did set down the story out of coelius secundus & calvin as he said , but without any quotation of the place where . but to enter upon a comparison between their doctrine and ours , and that upon supposition of this rule delivered by him . i say first , that by our doctrine , we can make it so evidently appeare , that the tempted hath no ground at all to conceive himselfe to be a reprobate , whatsoever his condition be , ( except guiltinesse of the sinne against the holy ghost ) i say we can make it so evident , that neither he , nor any arminian , can say any reasonable thing to the contrary ; not denying but that they may say enough to the contrary in an unreasonable manner . and my reason is , because whatsoever his condition be , it is no other then is incident to one of gods elect . secondly , i say , as touching the arminian doctrine , two things ; the first is this , there is no condition of man so holy in this life , as whereby any man can have any assurance , by arminian doctrine , that he is an elect of god , and consequently no reprobate , much lesse can they give any assurance to any man in the time of temptation ( as this author speakes of it ) that he is no reprobate . the second is this , arminians can give assurance to no man that he is no reprobate ; for as much as all their grounds of comfort are common to the reprobate as well as to the elect : wherehence it manifestly followeth , that their doctrine can afford no better comfort then a reprobate is capable of . for their grounds are universall as they professe , that is common to all , to wit , as touching the love of god , that it is common to all ; as touching the death of christ , that he dyed for all ; as touching the covenant of grace , that it also is common to all . and if this will comfort any man , namely , to be assured , that he is in as good a case as any turke or saracen , or any reprobate in the world , i find this author is ready to assure them hereof , and rather then faile he will sweare it , though i never heard matter of faith put to be tryed by mans oath till now : i had thought only matters of fact , had been tryable and assurable by oath , not matter of faith . yet i will not spare to professe , that though they should sweare either of these universalities to be true , i would no more believe them then i would believe the divell . for the apostle adviseth , saying , though that wee or an angell from heaven preach unto you otherwise then that which we have preached unto you , let him be accursed . gal . . but let us examine the comfortable nature of these universalities , whether they be such as a sober man can say nothing to the contrary . i begin with the universality of gods love ; the comfort herehence proceeds thus , as i conceive ; god loves all , willes all to be saved , therefore thou art no reprobate . now consider whether i may not soberly say to the contrary , that by the same reason there is no reprobate in the world , or ever was ; whence it followes , that i have no more comfortable assurance that i am no reprobate , then i have assurance that there is no reprobate at all in the world. secondly , would you have mee believe hand over head , that god would have all to be saved without distinction ; may not i soberly inquire , whether your meaning be , that god will have all and every one to be saved , whether they believe or no , whether they repent or no ; or only thus , that god will have all to be saved in case they believe and repent , not otherwise . now this is our doctrine , as well as yours , grounded upon this scripture , whosoever believeth shall be saved . now doth this doctrine assure any man that he is no reprobate , nor of the number of those whom god hath rejected from salvation ? perhaps you will say , it is sufficient to assure him , that he is no absolute reprobate , and that so this author is to be understood , though hitherto in this section he delivered it simply . admit this , now judge i pray you , whether i may soberly oppose against it thus ; although i am no absolute reprobate , yet if i am a reprobate , and may be as much assured of it , as that there is any reprobate in the world , what comfort can arise to my poore afflicted soule from hence . againe consider , that neither we who oppose arminians , doe maintaine that god hath ordained to deny any man salvation absolutely , but only conditionally , to wit , in case he dye in sinne without faith , without repentance . but suppose i am perswaded , that god hath rejected mee from the grace of faith and of repentance , what comfort can you arminians administer to my sick soule in this case ? for dare you deny faith and repentance to be a gift of god ? so then if i conceive my selfe to be a reprobate from grace , will you comfort me by saying , that i am no absolute reprobate from grace ? then belike god hath determined to give or deny grace , not according to the meere pleasure of his will , but according to mens workes ; and have you no better balme of gilead to administer to a sick soule , then to take sanctuary in such a doctrine as is direct and flat pelagianisme ? in the same sober manner we shall have somewhat to say against that comfort that is reached forth to an afflicted soule , from the universality of christs death ; thou doubtest thou art a reprobate , but be of good cheere , for christ dyed for all and every one ; as much as to say , thou hast no more cause to believe that thou art a reprobate , then to believe that there is any reprobate in the world . secondly , be of good cheere , for albeit thou art a reprobate , and god foreseeing thou wilt dye in sinne , hath from everlasting ordained thee to condemnation , as well a judas that betrayed christ ; yet i can assure thee , thou art no absolute reprobate no more then judas was . and whereas it may be thou art verily perswaded , that he that believes and repents , and perseveres herein , shall not be damned , for as much as all confesse , that god hath not ordained that damnation shall be inflicted absolutely , according to the meere pleasure of god , but meerely according to mens workes ; but all thy feare is , least thou art reprobated from grace , and that absolutely ; considering that god ( as it seemes ) in the giving and denying of grace proceeds meerely according to the meere pleasure of his will , because the apostle saith , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . rom. . . yet be of good cheere , for i can assure thee , that is nothing so ; but as there are no absolute reprobates from glory , and unto damnation , so there are no absolute reprobates from grace , but meerely conditionally it is that men are reprobated from grace , like as meerely conditionally god doth elect men unto grace : and to speake in plaine termes without dissimulation ; god gives faith and repentance unto men , according as they dispose themselves thereunto , for want of which disposition , he denyes it unto others . and if thou desirest to be more particularly informed in this mistery for thine unspeakable consolation ; know for certain , that if thou wilt believe and repent , thou shalt believe and repent . and albeit in the synod of palestine , anno . it was concluded , that grace is not given according unto merits , and pelagius was driven to subscribe thereto , for feare of excommunication too , in case he had refused it ; yet take this comfortable mystery along with thee ; that this was but a fruit of the predestinarian heresy ; which that very yeare if thou markest the story well , had his originall , and was brought forth into the world. and lastly , as touching the universality of the covenant of grace , that is as comfortable as the former ; for all are under it , and therefore thou amongst the rest , and consequently thou art no more a reprobate then any other ; certainly no absolute reprobate , for there are none such ; iudas was not , and therefore thou maist assure thy selfe thou art not . and indeed there are none that maintaine , that god decreed , that any man should be denyed glory or damned absolutely , but only conditionally , to wit , in case he finally persevere in infidelity or impenitency : and whereas thou maist feare least thou art absolutely reprobated from grace , to wit , from the grace of faith and repentance ; take heart and feare no colours . for albeit it be fit to confesse , considering the times that faith and repentance are the gifts of god , yet know that god doth not dispense them , according to the meere pleasure of his will , but according to mens workes , whatsoever some men cry out to the contrary , charging us with pelagianisme ; but if thou art wise thou wilt take comfort in this , as in true christianisme . as for those that maintaine absolute reprobation , none of them is able to make it appeare unto thee , that thou art no absolute reprobate . and i willingly confesse , that if faith and repentance be not evidences hereof , we are not able to make it appeare , either to others that they are not , or to our selves that we are not reprobates . but by the way it is manifest , that this author by his grounds , can give no assurance of election , no not to a believer no certainty of salvation ; and yet he pretends to be a comforter , when he leaves him in doubt whether he shall be saved or damned ; yet upon this pillow arminians sleepe sweetly , and presume that others may sleepe sweetly also , that they are not absolutely reprobates ; and no marvaile ; for even in the course of the holiest conversation , their doctrine can administer no assurance either of election or salvation . but perhaps they will say , though they can give no assurance of election absolute by their doctrine , yet they can give assurance of election conditionall . but wherein i pray doth this consist ? forsooth in this , that if they finally persevere in this their holy conversation , they shall be saved . but i pray consider , doth not our doctrine afford the same assurance as well as theirs ? it cannot be denied , but that it doth , and more then so ; for our doctrine gives assurance of perseverance in the state of grace , to them that are once in the state of grace ; the arminian doth not . and the apostle assures the thessalonians , that upon his knowledge they were the elect of god , and that from the worke of their faith , the labour of their love , and the patience of their hope . thess . . . . and that the man of sinne shall not prevaile over them . thess . . . because they are elect ; whereof also he was assured ( as there he signifies ) by their sanctification and faith . it is true the outward acts of faith and repentance may be counterfited : and it is as true , that whether they be counterfeited or no , it may be discerned ; otherwise why should the apostle be so bold as to professe , and that by observation of their workes , that he knew they were elect of god. thess . . . the devill may transforme himselfe into an angell of light , but yet we have a sure word of god , whereby to discerne his practises to corrupt either our faith , or our manners , otherwise we poore creatures were but in a very evill case : so his ministers also transforme themselves , crafty workers as they are , into ministers of righteousnesse ; but s t paul discovered them and warned the corinthians of them ; wolves may goe in sheepes clothing , but our saviour assures us that we shall know them by their fruites ; none more proper fruite of a false prophet then his false doctrine ; and we have a true touch-stone to discover that , and make the devills clawes to appeare in their proper forme and colours . and we know how soone simon magus discovered himselfe to be in the very gall of betternesse , and bond of iniquity . yet i nothing doubt but we may be deceived ; but most commonly it comes to passe that hypocrites are the greatest deceivers and coseners of themselves ; and it is not their condition to be exercised with feares least they be reprobates , and to confesse that their faith , their repentance is counterfit . it is most likely they deale without hypocrisy in this . but when any doe lay such sinnes to their own charge , we will not take them at their word , but we will inquire upon what grounds they deliver this & we will inquire whether now they are well pleased with this their former hypocrisy ; if so , what cause is there , why they should be disquieted in themselves upon the consideration of that wherein they are well pleased ? but if it be their sorrow , if this cause heavinesse of heart unto them ; here we have a double evidence of some sparkes of grace in them ; first in confessing their former hypocrisy . secondly in being humbled with sorrow in the consideration of it ; now god hath promised , that if we confesse our sinnes , god as he is faithfull and just will forgive them . and if they are humbled in the consideration of it , and tremble at the apprehension of gods judgements against hypocrites , they are so much the fitter for god to take up his habitation in their contrite heart and humble spirit es . . . and es . . . i hope there is no miserable consolation in all this ; to minister this physicke is to be a phisitian of some value . and certainly whatsoever was our former course , whether in the way of profanesse , or the way of hypocrisy , when god brings us to consider it and to confesse it , and to be acquainted with his feares , and terrours here upon , we have cause to conceive good hope , that god is now in a gratious way to draw them neerer unto him , who before were strangers from him . certainly we will be bold to tell them , that there is no just cause why they should despaire . i come to the last particular he insisteth upon ; and that is piscators confession ; which because he conceives it serves his turne , therefore he ascribes unto him ingenuity in this . but what saith piscator ? that no comfort can possibly be instilled into the soules of reprobates . piscators words are these , reproborum anxiis animis nulla consolatio instillari potest . this author addes possibly to make it the more waighty as he thinkes . we acknowledg god to be the god of consolation , and his spirit alone to be the comforter , and if god will not give them christ , surely they can have no true consolation in christ ; which yet depends meerely upon supposition of the will of god ; like as none but god can give raine ; and if it be his will it shall raine to morrow or not raine , either shall come to passe according to his will , and it is impossible it should be otherwise then he willeth ; yet is raine a contingent thing , and god will have it come to passe contingently , that is , so as with a possibility to the contrary . now that god gives not all unto christ , our saviour professeth , john. . thine they were and thou hast given them unto me ; and afterwards , for their sakes i sanctify my selfe , this is spoken in reference unto the offering up of himself unto his father upon the crosse , as maldonate acknowledgeth to be the interpretation of all the fathers , whom he he had read . he dyed we confesse to procure salvation for all that believe ; but did he dye to procure faith for all ? if so , then either absolutely or conditionally . if absolutly , then all must believe and be saved . if conditionally , to wit , upon condition of some disposition of man , then it followes that christ hath merited that faith should be conferred on men according to their workes , which is manifest pelagianisme . but what is this to the purpose , namely , that comfort cannot be instilled into the soules of reprobates ? the question is of comforting the tempted , not supposing them to be reprobates . for what ground have we to suppose any man to be a reprobate , considering that there is no evidence hereof , but either the committing of sinne against the holy ghost or finall perseverance in infidelity or impenitency ; and is it to be expected that christian doctrine should afford any consolation unto these ? but out of the case of sinne committed against the holy ghost there is no cause why any man , living in the church of god , should despaire , or conceive him selfe to be reprobate ; albeit , untill he believe in christ , we can assure him that he is one of gods elect ; whereof the arminian doctrine can give no assurance albeit men doe believe , and albeit an angell from heaven should assure them that their faith is a true faith . it is true reprobates must beare their burthen of discomfort that know themselves to be reprobates ; but who are they ? for my part i know none , nor doe i know any reason why any man should conceive himselfe to be of that number , unlesse he hath sinned against the holy ghost , and let them looke to that who oppose the truth of god , and blaspheme it against their conscience . therefore to talke of a burthen that is to be borne by we know not whom in particular , no nor they themselves who are of that number , is a very vaine discourse . . as for that which piscator saith of the elect , it is to be understood only at such a time as when they beginne to feele the burthen of sinne ; which is not alwaies with the first , nor at the same time in all . as for that he saith of feeling the burthen of sinne , and a desire to be freed from it by christ , that they are only probable not infallible arguments of election . i answer , first it is better to have probable arguments of election then none at all ; neither am i privy to any probable argument of a mans election that may be attained to by the doctrine of arminians . secondly a man may have good ground of consolation , though he hath not yet any infallible argument of his election ; first in as much as christ calleth and encourageth such a one to come unto him , saying , come unto me all ye that travaile , and are heavy laden . blind bartimeus was not a little comforted when it was told him , that christ called him ; how much more when we heare him calling us ; secondly in as much as he doth not only bid us to come unto him , but promiseth that he will ease us , and what is that but that he will comfort us . and it is no small comfort to be in the way to the obtaining infallible arguments of a mans election . lastly , to desire to be freed from sinne by christs , is it any lesse then to hunger and thirst after righteousnesse ; and hath not our saviour pronounced all such blessed , and promised they shall be filled ? that the grace of salvation is communicated to some few is a thing with out question ; for if but few be chosen as our saviour professeth , undoubtedly there are but few that are saved . and directly our saviour signifies as much , when he answers to the question proposed by his disciples ( whether but few shall be saved ) in this maner , strive to enter in at the streight gate &c : & for a man to conceive that it may be he is one of the number of gods elect , is enough to keepe him from despaire , and from conceiving that he is a reprobate . secondly , this is spoken of him that is yet but in the way to the state of grace : whereas by the arminian doctrine he can have no better asurance , though he be in the state of grace . lastly , piscator gives to understand that this doctrine doth afford this comfort , to wit , in the apprehension of a possibility that he is elect ; he doth not say that it affords but this : nay , by his doctrine he manifesteth how the way is open to a farre better consolation then this , to every one that groanes under the burthen of sinne , and desires to be freed from it by christ , which he expresseth and concludeth in this manner , whosoever feeles the burthen of his sin desiring to be freed from it by christ , and craving the grace of god , him christ will ease and save . mat. . last . but thou feelest the burthen of thy sinnes , and desirest to be freed from it by christ , and cravest the grace of god , &c. for in this case he conceives there is a difference betweene such a one and a reprobate . for reprobates in such a case , feeling the burthen of their sinnes , doe not seeke the grace of god , but rather fly from him as from a severe judge ; as he shewes by the instances of cain and judas . and indeed untill there be in man some better condition wrought then in a reprobate , what ground have we to conceive better of him then of a reprobate , nor that he is to be concluded to be a reprobate , but both our judgement concering him and his judgement concerning himselfe is to be suspended ; considering that there was a time when the best of gods children were in such a case , yet afterwards it hath appeared that even in that former uncomfortable condition , they were the very elect of god , and in like manner as comfortable may be the condition of these , we know not how soone ; for god calls some sooner , others latter . errata . page . line . read affect : p. . l. . r. so also to regenerate himselfe , & indeed as we are commanded to believe , so &c. p. . l. . r. that desert . p. . l. . r. first . p. . l. . alleadged , acknowledging . p. . l. . amica . p : . l. . but by . p : . l. . course . p : . l : . thee . p. . l. . manner . ib. l : ult . of paena . p : . l : . then. p : . l. . have god. ib : l. . did not . p : . l. . in his . p : . l. . proposito . p : . l : . concession . p : . l : . so he decreed to bestow it on whom he will. p : . l : . positions . p : . l : . addicitis . l. . oderit . p : . l : . anianus . l : praeveniri . p : . l : . loath . p : . l. . gratiam . p : . l : . libro . p. . l. . conditionality . p : . l : . diluatur . l. . neque enim . p : . l : . labitur . p : . l : . peace . l : . as that . p : . l : . pejores . l : . coram rudioribus , p : . l : . d. andreas . l : . suspected . p : . l : . bespeake . p : . l : have not . p : . l. . too bright . l : . finding out . p : . l : . saturne . p : . l : . premit . p. . l. . dele de . l. . necessarium fore . p : . l : . puritate tutius , nihil ad discendum veritate facilius . p : . l. . or any . p : . l : . conciliare . p : . l : . but by . p : . l : . worthily . p : . l : . of other . ib. l : . of any . p : . l. . or to beza and his brethren accusing lutherans of those errours . p. . l. ult . libero . p : . l. , . facite . p : . l : . necessarily . p : . l : . resolves it . p : . l : . vessells on . p : . l : . à zenone . p : . l. . scio . p. . l. . po . sit . l. . addition . p : . l. . distinguish . p. . l. . the two . p. . l : . voluisse . p. . l. . patientiam . p : . l : . or the. p. . l : . then he . p : . l. . & non omnipotent . p : . l. . quiddam . l. . nasceretur . l. . supralapsarian . p : . l : . stroake . p : . l : . as lord. p. . l : . more largely . p. . l : . conceited . p : . l. . this belike . p : . l. . filth . p. . l. . patientiam . p : . l : . apostatarum . p : . l. . definition of . p : . l : . it doth end in a will conditionall ; p. . l. . poore fish . p : . l : . by this have all the godly at all times encouraged themselves to well doing , as we may see generally . phil. . . colloss : . . tit. . , . and particularly , heb. . abraham & c - p : . l. . lame post . p : . l : . good waies . p : l : . absolutely ? l : . histrionicall . p. . l : . quosdam . l. . law of . p. . l : . burning of . l. . imployed . p. . l : . yet his . l : . was it . p : . l : . premises . p. . l. . vel accepta perseverantia . l : . dele its . l. . ista cum . p. . l : . is there . p : . l : . a certain . l : . there he gives and workes faith in that one , and not in another . p : . l : . praecepta . p. . l. . proposeth this . p. . l. . is this . p : . l : . fatum . p. . l. . morietur . p. . l. . and persovere . l. . indifferent . p. . l. if they had we . p. . l. ult . heresie . p : . l : . dele them . p : . l. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. . l : . purposeth thus . p. . l. . marcuerat . p. . l : . did rest . p. . l. . if it . l : . from breame . l. . change of . p. . l : . upon what p. . l. . dele who . p. . l. . externall . p. . l. . comforter and that all the consolation which he ministers is in christ and if . l : . we cannot . p. . l. . not that . the second book , being an examination of certaine passages inserted into m r hord's discourse ( formerly answered ) by an author that conceales his name , but was supposed to be m r mason rector of saint andrews vndershaft in london . oxford , printed by h. hall for th. robinson . . to the reader . the authour of this treatise was perswaded to pen the reasons of his opinion against absolute reprobation , that he might satisfie a worthy friend of his , who required it . vvhat satisfaction that learned gentleman , his friend , hath received by these reasons , i know not : but sure i am , they have given good content to some others , who have read them , and doe still desire a copie of them for their farther use . to ease whose paines in transcribing this treatise , it doth now appeare in this forme . if any of contrary opinion , shall undertake to answer or refute it ; i wish , he would set downe his opinion and reasons with that perspicuitie and modestie , that our authour hath set downe his . such a course of disputing will gaine more credit to himselfe and his cause , then voluminous vagaries about impertinent things if any shall use railing speeches , or unnecessary diversions from the cause ; i shall ever interpret that to be a strong signe of a weake cause : or , at least , i shall think it to be an argument of an obstinate minde , who neither knoweth how to yeeld to the truth , nor to defend his errour . i hope the reader , who loveth his owne salvation , will be a more indifferent iudge in a question , which concerneth him so nearely . and so i leave him to god's blessing . the preface . when first i lighted upon a treatise intituled ( god's love to mankind ) and read a little way in it , i had reason to be acquainted with it ; though the authors face i had never seen : upon the first relation of the change of his opinion in certaine controversies , as he pretended ; i was intreated to conferre with him thereupon by word of mouth : my answer was , that it was more fit to conferre in writing , and if he would be drawne to communicate the reasons of his pretended change ; i should willingly take them into consideration . this motion was made in the yeare . being then at london ; the yeare following in the month of july ( as i remember ) was the discourse of m r hord's sent unto me , and i was urged upon my former promise to make answer thereunto . at that time i had another businesse under my hand , which i could not dispatch in lesse then two months space or more : but i was wished to take my owne time . as soone as i was free from my former taske , i set hand to this , and returned my answere thereunto , unto the gentleman that set me on worke , about the end of hillary terme anno dom : . but observing the bulke of the treatise now in print , twice as bigge , as that in manuscript or more . i expected a reply to my former answer ; but upon perusall , i found nothing lesse , whereat i wondred not a little , having never heard of any such treatise untill the last sommer , : for surely they had time enough to answer it . to helpe the credit of their cause in this ; it seemed good unto them to raise a mist , that their absurd carriage might not be discovered , to witt : by antedating the print thereof , which yet was but newly found creeping in corners . another devise there is by a large interpolation and addition , here and there foysted into the body of the former discourse , and yet not all at once , but by pathes , a great part of it being but lumber ; and the adding of more testimonies , as if the matter were to be carried by number and not by weight , or as if the author of them were willing to make ostentation of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and fullnesse of his common place booke . only the upper way of our divines maintayning the absolutenesse of god's decrees is here inpugned at large , with the authors best strength i doubt not ; which taske was omitted by mr hord : and besides there is one divine attribute more here mentioned , in contradiction whereunto the doctrine of our divines is pretended to proceed , and the prosecution hereof amongst the rest is here set downe , by way of superfaetation upon the former , not only that so the argument might be the more compleat , but also to cast a colour ; that this discourse of mr hord's hath not as yet been answered . it may be it would faine have shewed it selfe unto the world in this masculine shape and vigour before this time , if doctor duppa while he was vicechancellour at oxford would have given way to the printing of it , if it be true as i have heard , that it was offered unto him to be licenced for the presse . doctor potter also of queenes colledge performed a freindly part to some body in checking the stationers for selling the copies of it , forwhich courtesy , i doe account my selfe so much in his debt as that comes to ; and should much more , had he sent me one of the copies , as he did noe lesse then six on the same day to his friend doctor aigleonbee ; as the book-seller confessed to a scholar a friend of mine . well mr hord's treatise is at length come to the presse , and shewes it selfe in publique without shame , though i thought it had been sufficiently confounded almost three yeares agoe ; yet this mistres blushes not , though dares not open her mouth to cleare her reputation in any one particular of that which i layd to her charge , manifesting her to be no daughter of god's truth , but a meere bastard , begotten by a carnall wit , upon a specious pretence by miserable deflowring and adulterating the word of god ; one builds a wall as the prophet speakes , and another daubeth that with untempered mortar . mr hord is well knowne to be the author of the first by mee formerly answered . but what mason's hand was used in the addition , that is concealed ; but that may breake out into pregnant evidences before we have gone through with it . the prefacer at the first chop begins with a notorious untruth , and that in more particulars then one ; for first , whom doth he meane by the author of this treatise ? m. horde ? that which m. horde sent to his worthy friend is yet to be seen , containing not halfe so much as this ; it was not above leaves manuscript , and that not closely , but written at large ; and this containes leaves in print . but it may bee m. horde hath since inlarged his own discourse , and so continues to be author of it , not in part only , but in the whole . and i confesse it may be , he is as much the author of the one as of the other ; if it be true as some have told me of the very first , sent to his friend indeed , namely that it was the very strength of m. mason ; him i knowe of old , and should be acquainted with his sufficiency , though it was a long time ere i had so much as heard of his zeale for the arminian cause , and after i heard so much , it was yet longer ere i could believe it , untill i saw it under his own hand : and whereas m. horde comming to his second convincing argument , as he calls it , drawne from attributes divine , layeth downe certaine premises , the second whereof is this ; that justice , mercy , truth , and holinesse , in god are the same in nature with these vertues in men , though infinitely differing in degrees . i willingly confesse i stood amaz'd , and albeit i conceived it , and doe conceave it to be one of the absurdest positions that ever dropped from the pen of a schoole divine ; yet the adventure was so great in my judgement , that i was apt to imagine that it proceeded not from a vulgar spirit . this conceit of mine was improved by the reasons he brings to justifie so strange a paradox : for they are plausible & make a faire shew at the first , like the fruit of sodom ; but crush them once , come to the scholastical discussion of them , & forthwith in cineres abeunt & vagam fuliginem , they vanish into smoak and emptinesse . a second untruth is this , that he saith , the author was perswaded by a worthy friend to pen the reasons of his opinion against absolute reprobation ; for he was only put upon shewing reasons of the change of his opinion in the controversies of late debated between the remonstrants & their opposites , as m. horde himselfe confesseth in his preface . m. horde indeed is willing to drawe the matter unto the consideration of gods decrees , as if that were the maine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most absurdly , and quite contrary to the doctrine of augustine , who shapes the decrees of god in conformitie to the doctrine of grace ; and accordingly to certifie the massilienses in the doctrine of praedestination , he thinks it most fit to begin with proving that faith is the gift of god , yea the very beginning of it . now he liked not to follow austins course , and in the first place to deale upon the point of grace . and herein hee savours of m. masons spirit , for that is his course , as i have seen under his hand ; yet suppose that this be the maine thing , controverted , namely the qualitie of gods decrees , whether they be absolute or conditionall only . how doth he satisfie his friend , or performe the promise made in letting election passe untouched , and dealing only upon reprobation ? and this i know also to have been m. masons genuine course , far worse then the remonstrants in the synod of dort , for they made a motion , that they might deal upon reprobation in the first place , and then upon election , wherein notwithstanding they were condemned in the judgement of all forraigne divines , assistant there . but this author and m. mason too , on my knowledge , affect to deale upon reprobation only . yet i have alwaies been , and still am glad to see the utmost of their strength , or any mans strength on any of the five points , and should be very glad to see what they could say upon the point of free will , which is most congruous for them , though they meddle not at all with grace . for even on that point i seem to have profited more , lately by dealing with some english arminians , then ever before , having alwaies acknowledged , that to be a point very obscure , like as is the nature of originall sinne which was one of the three points , concerning which i did not look to live so long , as to meet with convenient satisfaction . m. horde ( i heard ) conferred with m. mason , about election , and told him that the doctrine of our divines therein seemed very comfortable to the children of god , whereunto m. mason should answer , by granting that , but then adding , it was very prone to provoke men to loosenesse of life . this concession was as a shooing horne to draw m. horde on to the remonstranticall tenet , nothing doubting , but in the end to take him of from entertaining so good an opinion of our doctrine of election , as if it were not any such comfortable condition ; & teach him to magnifie the comfortable condition of the adversaries doctrine , depending upon a threefold cord , which as the proverb faith , cannot easily be broken . . the universalitie of gods love , . the universalitie of christs redemption . . the universalitie of the covenant of grace : thus the comforts of the remonstrants are multiplied and advanced , which in the issue comes to this , that their condition is as comfortable as any reprobates condition throughout the world , whether cain's or ishmael's , or esau's or doeg's or iuda's , or the grand senior among the turkes , or the whole guard of his janisaries : for god's love is towards all , christ's redemption extends to all , and the covenant of grace belongs to all . and what comfortable creatures must these needes be , upon so various and comfortable considerations ? and the whole nation of the arminians , are herein inferiour to none of them all . and though they will not be so saucie as to promise unto themselves perseverance in the state of grace ; yet they will be so bold as to promise both to themselves and to all their proselites perseverance in this estate of consolation , nothing inferiour to any reprobates consolation in the world . but the mischiefe is , that hence it followes , that the consolation of any of god's children , whether abraham , isaack , iacob , david , or solomon , prophets , apostles , martyrs , the blessed virgin mary , nor any other excepted , was never greater , then the consolation of the wicked'st christian that ever lived , whether prophane or hypocriticall , provided he did believe these mysteries of arminian godlynes ; namely that god's love is towards all , christ dyed for the redemption of all , and lastly that the covenant of grace belongs to all ; for these are the sweet and precious flowers of consolation that grow in the gardens and writings of these divines ; to the astonishment of the world , in considering the power and efficacy of satan : and that , even in the church of god , so many should be given up to so strange delusions . he doth not know what satisfaction that learned gentleman his friend hath received by these reasons , nor i neither ; for i am not privy to the least satisfaction he hath received . but on the contrary , rather how he hath found the vilenesse of these remonstranticall tenets discovered , and the vanity of all supports used to underprop them . sure he is , they have given good content to others ; give we him leave to be liberall in his owne commendations : we doe not know how farre he dwells from neighbours : yet no marvaile if they give good content to many , who have been seasoned with the like speculations : i have seen a manuscript with this inscription , a survey of the new platforme of predestination ; the method of it is much like to this , and it ends with a dialogue in the point of consolation ; as if both authours had dipt their pen in the same inck-pot . and now to heare and see demogorgon himselfe play his part , and explicate his mountebanck sacultie in displaying the strength of his opobalsamum ; as he did of his catholicon , whom the frenchman brings in his satyre mennippised , no marvaile if they are well perswaded that no pandora can equall that for vniversalities of graces : when in the meane time they all fall short of that unum necessarium , which yet like enough they are ready to forsweare , and professe they will turne open atheists rather then believe it : still he keeps himselfe upon the commendation of his proselite , which cannot but reflect some sweet content upon himselfe , who is the engineer and perhaps the spirit that animates him and sets him on worke , for if the man such prayses have , what then shall he that inspires the knave . he commends the author for perspicuitie in writing and modesty , and he wisheth that whosoever undertakes to answer it fully will performe the like . for my part i cannot change my stile : but my desire is , i may discover their fopperies , as perspicuously as i can , and i hope nothing to faile in performance ; like enough the authour of the preface as well as the authour of the discourse desires to be gently handled and that he calls modesty , yet when a man will have his horse to be well curried , it is not for want of love to his horse ; but because the condition of his horse requires to be so dealt withall : i thanke god , i never projected any immodest carriage ; never could any adversary move me so farre ; but as an excellent footeball-player of our house , who would lay any man on his backe handsomly without hurt ( and he was a bishop's sonne ) being desired to shew any other how to doe the like ; answered with protestation that he never proceeded by any rules : but as he found his opposite , so he coped with him . in like sort , as i find my adversarie ; so i deale with him for the present , as the condition of his carriage to my seeming deserves , and if i handsomly lay his opinions on the ground without doing him any harme , methinkes i should be rather loved then hated of my very enemies for this ; as for the present my opposite seemes to have a care of my credit , for the gaining whereof he chaulkes me out a way , to wit : by writing perspicuously , and modestly , without voluminous vagaries about impertinent things . this he delivers very gravely and demurely , which is in my judgment very ridiculous ; and , if i doe expresse it and answer it as it deserves , i think , i should carry my selfe decently in answering him according to his ridiculous condition , and telling him that he doth not well in shewing such charity towards his adversary , which the world will be apt to interpret , as proceeding from a cowardly disposition . the spaniards at the fort of brest , when sr john norris went forth in hunting of the hare , and his hounds pursued the hare into the very fort , they tooke his hounds and hanged them up over the wall , not in spite of so renowned a generall , but to represent their feareles condition , and that they looked for no favour at his hands . magnanimitie , not malice moved them unto this , which magnanimitie might strike feare into their enemies , though it did not , who tooke the fort , though it cost them deare . i write with a purpose to expose my selfe to the censure of the world as they shall find cause ; but i regard not the censures of an adversary : especially in such a cause which bradwardine stiles , the cause of god against pelagius . and truly i confesse i get something by this very phrase of my adversaries voluminous vagaries about impertinent things : which makes me conclude , that certainely both this author , and his interpolator have seen my answer to m r hord's treatise , wherein i have some vagaries i confesse , to refresh my spirit upon emergent occasions . for , being taking of from my studies to see a stranger who desired my companie ; i was suddenly instructed in a new learning of nine causes , who never was accquainted with above . before in the universitie , and one of the nine was finding out , of which i made good use upon my returne ; in finding out the sophestry of the remonstrants , in certaine arguments of theirs . this liberty of spirit to refresh my selfe and my reader , it may be this author spites : whereas i am perswaded i should take no offence on his part for the like ; but it may be his gravity transports him to be of the same mind with raynold the fox , who having lost his owne tayle in a ginne afterwards he endevours very composedly to perswade his fellowes to cut of their tayles also . and to that purpose suffered his wit to exuberate in representing and amplifying the incommodious condition of such a member : railing speeches , i know no reason why any man should feare from his adversary ; for such , hierome hath taught me , doe defile the railer only , not him that is railed on . and if any man be pleased to spit in my face that way , though i am naturally very melancholly , yet i am perswaded he shall find little melancholly predominant in my answering him . as for unnecessarie divisions for the cause , which he doth seriously and wisely admonish his adversary to beware of . i willingly professe , i love to have sea roome , and not to be confined unto straights by any sullen rules of my adversarie ; and truly i perscribe to none , but as i find him , so i frame my selfe to grapple with him , as congruously as i can . if god be on my side , why should i be afraid of any colours . let the divell and all his angels of darknesse lye in camp against me ; i shall not budge : but here is danger mentioned , which i professe , i did not project , and that is the dashing of my selfe upon the rocks of my adversaries displeasure . and his interpretation of my courses to my displeasure . for if i doe not conforme to his sullen rules of stoicall moralitie , he shall ever interpret it ; ( i marke well the phrase , he comes not willingly on to make harsh interpratations , but he shall doe it ) as much as to say the uprightnesse of his judgment and the justice of his disposition will urge him hereunto , namely to interpret it , as a strong signe of a weake cause , or at least an argument of an obstinate minde : but soft and faire , who made my adversary my judge ; by whose interpretations i am to stand or fall ? how imperiously doth he carry himselfe in this ; as if he were some bugbeare , or dreadfull adversary doe i say ? or magistrate rather , see the poverty of my wit and of my spirit too ; the one was never so inventious of any such trick , nor the other so audacious , or immodest ( if i may be so bold soe to speak ) as to serve my selfe therewith , to scarre my adversary , desparing by faire waies to overcome him , and make him yeild , or else his obstinacy knowne to the world : for who seeth not , that i have as much authoritie to threaten him with the sharpnesse of my interpretations of him ; as he to threaten me not with the like austerenesse of his ? i am willingly content the world may judge between us , both of the cause debated and of our carriage therein throughout , and who hath the truth on his side , and shews most learning and honesty in the maintayning of that he undertakes ; i willingly confesse , the five points controverted are tender points , and the knowledge of the truth herein , meerly concerning a mans salvation ; but this author deales only upon the halfe of one of them , and that most needlesse also : and the resolution of the doctrine of election depends upon the resolution of the doctrine of election depends upon the resolution of an other point ; namely , whether grace be conferred freely , or according to mens workes ; that it is conferred freely , and not according to workes ; hereupon it is that austin builds the absolutenesse of predestination and election , wherence it followeth evidently , that as many as doe maintaine the decree of predestination to be conditionall , must also in austin's judgment maintaine that grace is given according unto workes , which was of old condemned in the synod of palaestine , and all along in divers synods and provinciall councells against the pelagians . now if predestination be absolute and not conditionall ; it followes that reprobation also is absolute and not conditionall ; which consequence i presume , the author of these additions will not deny . but as there is a great deale of craft in dawbing ; so these craftie crowders are apt to worke upon generalities and in distinctions : reprobation we know is as well from grace as from glory , and god's reprobation from glory is joyned with a purpose to inflict damnation . now as touching reprobation from grace , we readily professe that god hath both ordained to deny grace unto some of his meere pleasure ; like as he hath ordained to bestow that upon others of his meere pleasure ; and also of his meere pleasure hath made such a decree . and these authors dare not mainifestly oppose us in this argument , lest the sower leaven of their pelagian tenet manifest it selfe to the whole world , namely in maintaining that grace is conferred according to workes : but as touching reprobation from glory , and god's purpose to inflict damnation , these juglers so carry the matter , as if they would make the world believe our doctrine is , that god decreed to deny men glory and to inflict damnation , not for their sinnes ; but meerely , because it is his pleasure so to doe , a most unshamefast crimination : for albeit that god hath made no law , according whereunto , he proceeds in giving grace unto some , and denying it unto others , but herein proceeds meerely according unto his pleasure , and not according to men's workes ; it being manifest pelagianisme to affirme the contrary ; yet we openly & willingly profes ( and all the christian world knowes it to be true ) that god hath made a law whereunto according he proceeds in the distribution of rewards and punishments , namely these , whosoever believeth shall be saved , whosoever believeth not shall be damned : and according to this law , god hath decreed from everlasting to proceed in pronouncing the sentence of salvation and damnation on mankind , namely to bestow salvation not of his meere pleasure , without all respect of the workes of men , but as a reward of their faith , repentance , and good workes , and to inflict damnation not of his owne meere pleasure without any respect to the workes of men , but as a due reward for their sinnes never broken of by repentance . only this decree thus to proceed in the execution of rewards and punishments , we professe god hath made according to the meere pleasure of his will , whereby it is apparent , that these men play the part of notable impostours , when they abuse the world's credulitie in making them believe , that we maintaine any such absurd decrees or executions of decrees , which they obtrude upon us ; and to this purpose these are willing to take the benefit and advantage of confusion ; for it is most profitable for some to fish in troubled waters , and to walke in the darke : but when the light of distinction comes , this madd's them to see their impostures discovered , and their sophistications made to appeare in their proper colours . the eye of the adulterer ( saith iob ) waiteth for the twilight , and saieth , no eye shall see me , and disguiseth his face , they dig through houses in the darke , which they marked for themselves in the day , they know not the light , but the morning is even to them , as the shadow of death , if one know them , they are in the terrours of the shadow of death ; now there is a course of adulterating the word of god , and deflouring his truth every way , as abominable in the sight of god , as the deflowring of women ; yea and much more abominable ; in my answer to the former discourse , as i remember , i proposed certaine arguments to prove the absolute nature of reprobation . this authour doth not accommodate himselfe , nor his achates neither to answer so much as one of them . thus having prefaced concerning these concealed authours , and therewithall made answer to the preface of this interpolator , i come to make answer to the additions themselves . the answer to the additions . . some say that god of his meer pleasure antecedent to all sinne in the creature , originall , or actnall , did decree to glorifie his soveraigntie and justice in the eternall rejection and damnation of the greatest part of mankind , as the end ; and in their unavoidable sinne and impenitence , as the meanes . . the rest of that side thinking to avoid the great inconveniences , to which the supralapsarian way lies open , fall downe a little lower ; and present men to god in his decree of reprobation lying in the fall & under the guilt of originall sinne , laying . that god looking upon miserable mankind lying in adam's sinne , did decree , the greatest number of men ( even those men whom he calls to repentance and salvation , by the preaching of the gospel ) to hell torments for ever and without all remedie , for the declaration of his severe justice ; this way went the synod . let the reader observe that this authour in stating the opinion of our divines alleageth no passages out of any of them , no nor so much as quotes the place of any of their writings where this doctrine is to be found in the terme wherein he delivers it , that so , he may take the greater libertie to shape their opinions according to his owne pleasure ; first , as touching the first observe . . how he shapes this opinion . , the persons to whom he imputes it ; concerning the first , the decree is shaped as consisting of two parts ; the one sets downe the end , which god intended , the other the meanes whereby this end is procured . . as touching the end , it is hard to say , by his shaping of it , whether the manifestation of god's glory be made the end , or man's damnation ; and if any one conceaves hereupon , that man's damnation is the end which god intended in the opinion of our divines , like enough this authour will be well enough pleased with it . . consider how god's soveraingtie and justice are coupled together , as appearing in the eternall rejection and damnation of his creatures , as if both of them did appeare equally in each . . then rejection is proposed without distinction and specification , that we might know whether he understands it of rejection from grace , or rejection from glorie . . and in the fourth place , he couples rejection with damnation , as if both were of equall yoke ; signifying acts temporall ; whereas rejection in the common notion thereof is all one with reprobation , and reprobation is commonly taken for an act eternall , to witt , the eternall purpose of god to deny grace , permit sinne , and inflict damnation for sinne . . damnation is here brought in as belonging to the decree of the end ; and quite left out in the decree of the meanes : whereas by the very light of nature it is apparent , that justice vindicative is manifested no where more , then in the execution of punishment . . and lastly damnation in it selfe is no manifestation of justice any more , then of injustice ; unlesse it be executed as a condigne punishment for sinne ; yet most absurdly he talks of manifesting justice in man's damnation , without specifying the meritorious cause of damnation ; without consideration whereof , damnation is no manifestation of justice , either divine , or humane . . whereas he sets forth the persons damned to be the greatest part of man-kind , this is only to speak with a full mouth , and to gull a partiall reader , who may be well pleased to have his mouth filled with an emptie spoone : for the scripture teatheth expreslie , that even of them that are called but few are chosen ; and clear reason doth manifest , that look how god may deale with one , in the same manner it is lawfull for him to deale with millions . we love to speak distinctly , and accordingly we say , that all god's decrees ; are of doing something for the manifestation of his owne glory . i say of doing something , for no glory of god is manifested in decreeing , but in executing his decrees ; as when solomon saith , god hath made all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill prov : : . so then the manifestation of god's glory is the end of all his actions . and accordingly if rejection here be taken for god's decree , no glory is manifested herein , and too absurd it is to account god's eternall decrees to to be meanes for the accomplishing of his ends : but if rejection be taken here for a temporall act , to witt : of finall dereliction in sinne , then it may be a meanes for the manifestation of god's glory in a certaine kind , namely , his soveraigntie ; for like as god hath mercy on whom he will , in not leaving them finally in their sinnes ; but delivering them from the power of it , by bestowing on them the grace of faith and repentance . in like manner , god hardneth whom he will , in denying the same grace of faith and repentance , and so finally leaving them and permitting them to continue finally in their sinnes , without breaking them of by repentance . so that god proceed's herein merely according to his pleasure , for the manifestation of that soveraingtie which he hath as a creator over his creatures . even the same that the potter hath over his clay , to make of the same lump one vessell unto honour , an other unto dishonour . no justice is manifested in this difference , i meane no such justice as proceedes in reference to the workes of men ; for he doth not bestow grace upon men , because of their good workes ; nor deny grace unto them , because of their evill workes ; but finding men equall in the state of sinne , he bestowes grace upon the one to cure sinne in them , and bestowes it not upon others . yet god is just herein in another respect , namely in as much as he doth no other thing in all this , but such as he hath a lawfull power to doe ; as for damnation , that is clearly an act temporall ; and this the lord inflicts on none but for their sinnes : and like as in giving or denying grace , god manifested no justice compensative , but soveraigntie , only proceeding therein merely according unto pleasure : so in inflicting dānation & denying glory , he manifest's vindicative justice alone , not proceeding according to mere pleasure herein but according to mens workes , and that according to a law which himselfe hath given unto men , namely this , whosoever continueth in sin without repentance shall be damned . . the second part of this decree is concerning the meanes ; and the meanes he makes to be sinne and impenitency : it is very well he tooke libertie to set downe their opinion without specifying their words , least they should fly in his face , and convict him of shamefull slaunder . he that intends the end is the authour of the meanes : this is universall , we say that the permission of sinne and of impenitencie is the meanes , and this we acknowledge to make way , as well for the manifestation of his mercy in pardoning sinne , as of his justice in punishing it ; it being apparent that neither mercy in pardoning , nor justice in punishing can have place ; unlesse sinne be permitted to enter into the world : over and above this sinne is stiled unavoidable without all distinction , such is the proper language of the arminian court ; we say all sinnes are avoydable by grace , and that no sinne can be avoided in an acceptable manner without grace , and here i speak not of grace restrayning only , but of grace sanctifying . here if it pleased him , he might have put in damnation also for sinne , as without all doubt a principall meanes of promoting the manifestation of god's justice ; and thomas aquinas expresly professeth , that reprobatio includit voluntatem permittendi culpam & damnationem inferendi pro culpa . reprobatition includes god's will to permit sinne , and to inflict damnation for sinne ; here is the decree concerning meanes . and as for the end hereof , both aquinas ( and alvarez after him ) professeth , that the manifestation of god's glory in the way of vindicative justice as intended by him , as the end of all this . . as for the persons here named to take this way . calvin though this authour placeth him amongst the supralapsarians , yet lubbertus doth not in his treatise of predestination , but opposeth vorstius in this particular ; cornelius de lapide , a jesuite upon the : verse of the : to the romans , agrees with lubbertus in this ; calvin's owne wordes are these de praedestinatione pag : . cum de praedestinatione sermo habetur , inde exordiendum esse constanter semper docui atque hodie doceo , jure in morte relinqui omnes reprobos , qui in adam mortui sunt ac damnati jure periere , qui naturâ sunt filii irae , when we treate of praedestination , i ever taught and to this day teach , that we ought to begin it from thence ; that all reprobates are justly left in death , who are dead in adam , and damned , and that they justly perish , who by nature are children of wrath . . lubbertus shewes beza also to concurre in the same . . piscator in a small treatise of the object of predestination , annexed to his answer to hemnigius of universall grace , though he makes the decree of making all men in adam to different ends , and of permitting them to fall in adam to precede the consideration of the corrupt masse , as it is evident they must , yet the decrees of election and reprobation he subordinates to the foresight of the corrupt masse . . and as for zanchy , let but his generall definitition of predestination be considered , it will appeare that he distinguisheth the particulars of the decree of predestination as piscator doth . . i come to the second opinion ; and as for the great inconveniencies which here is pretended , that the authours thereof desire to decline . i have answered hereunto upon , the treatise of m. hord , and shewed that not so much to decline inconveniencies have some embraced this way , as rather because this way seemes to be more familiar and plaine , and chiefly because the formall notions of the particulars of the decrees of election and reprobation , the one in the generall seeming to be a worke of mercy , the other of justice , seeme to suppose a consideration of man in the state of miserie . but supposing that some might take this way to avoid inconveniencies , yet i have shewed in my answer to arminius , that none of these are at all avoided this way . and then againe both these opinions have i endeavoured to reconcile in my vindiciae , and withall shewed that the difference whatsoever it comes to , is but in apice logico ; in a point of logick : both sides concurring in the maintenance both of god's soveraigne prerogative over his creatures , to make one vessell unto honour , another unto dishonour , by giving faith and repentance unto the one , and denying it to others ; as also in the prerogative of grace as only effectuall to the working of men unto faith and repentance . . god decrees both to create all men in adam , and to permit them all to fall in adam ; these be the divine decrees concerning meanes tending to the manifestation of his glory in the way of mercy and justice ; except man were created , no glory at all could be manifested in him ; unlesse all were suffered to fall in adam , there were neither place for mercy , nor justice : these are generall decrees concerning all ; then there are speciall degrees of difference to be joyned to these generall decrees ; . the one is of raising some out of sinne by faith and repentance , and bestowing salvation on them by way of reward for the manifestation of god's mercy . . the other is of leaving others in sinne , and permitting them finally to persevere therein , and inflicting damnation for their sinnes , the end whereof is the manifestation of god's justice : the decree of manifesting these is alone the decree of the end , all the rest are decrees of the meanes tending to these ends ; whereof the two first are generall and concerne all , whether elect , or reprobate , the rest are speciall , concerning either the elect alone , or the reprobate alone . . now here is a colour cast , as if the speciall decrees did praemise the two generall decrees : but this is a mere colour , as i have shewed you in my vindiciae , . and even they that take this way , maintaine that god ordaines no man to damnation but for sinne , and that both actuall , as well as originall , which is utterly pretermitted by this authour . . the scripture is expresse that of them that are called , few are chosen . . it is untrue that the synod went this way , they medled not at all with the ordering of god's decrees . mascovius also professor of divinitie at franekar , a violent and stiffe maintainer of the most unsavory speeches which have been uttered in this controversie , and one that undertooke in the very synod to make good against lubbert his fellow professor , that god did will sinnes , ordaine men to sinne , and would not at all that all men should be saved . and besides this , openly and peremptorily affirmed , that except these things were held and maintained by them , they could not possibly keep their owne ground , but must come over to the remonstrants ; this man was not only not censured , but publiquely declared in the synod to be pure and orthodox , and dismissed only with this kind and friendly motion . that he should hereafter take heed of such words as might give offence to tender eares ; and could not well downe with those who are uncapable of such mysteries . for all this the authour quotes antidotū remonstrantiū pag : , this booke i have not seen much lesse have i it at this time in my possession , and therefore i must take it all upon trust . and seeing this man was declared in the synod of dort , ( as this authour writes ) to be pure and orthodox , it seemes they did not censure these speeches of his as unsavorie speeches , but rather justified them , though with acknowledgment , that they might give offence to tender eares , and could not well downe with those , who were as yet uncapable of such mysteries ; so that this authour censureth these speeches of maccovius for unsavory speeches , without the least disproofe of them ( yet is maccovius , and then was , a professor of divinity in the university of franekar ) in like sort by consequent he censureth the judgment of the synod , as an unsavory judgment , and their approbation of maccovius , as an unsavory approbation ; let the reader judge of what spirit this authour is , and whether it may not be said of him , as moses said of corah and his complices , ye take to much upon you ye sonnes of aaron : nay what if this censure of his reflects upon the very phrases of the holy ghost ? the two first phrases namely , to will sinnes , and to ordaine men to sinne , are all one : for to ordaine men to sinne is but to will , that such men shall sinne , or that there shall be such sinnes of men . now the scripture frequently justifies this ; for the kings to give their kingdomes to the beast , what is the meaning of it , but to imploy their regall power in supporting the pope-dome ? now was not this a great sinne ? yet the scripture expresly professeth that is was the will of god it should be so . rev : . . for god hath put in their hearts to fullfill his will , and to doe it with one consent , for to give their kingdome to the beast , untill the words of god be fulfilled . as expresly doth saint peter testifie of some men , that they are ordained to stumble at god's word , and to be disobedient , christ is a stone to stumble at , & a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word , being disobedient , unto the which thing they were even ordained : and by whom could they be ordained hereunto but by god ? in like sort we know the abominable outrages committed by herod , pontius pilate , together with the gentiles and people of israel , against the holy sonne of god ( for iudas betraied him , the high priests suborned witnesses against him , herod with his herodians despitefully used him , pilate condemned him , the romane souldiers scourged him , spit in his face , buffeted him , arraied him like a king in scorne , and crowned him with a crowne of thornes , and last of all crucified him between two theeves ) yet of all these the holy ghost testifies , that in this doing against the holy sonne of god ) they did what god had determined to be done ; the words of the text are these , and that as delivered with one accord by the apostles and their fellowes ; for when peter and iohn were let goe , they came to their fellowes and shewed all that the high priests had said unto them , and when they heard it , they lift up their voices to god with one accord , and said , o lord thou art the god which hath made heaven and earth , the sea and all things that are therein , which by the mouth of thy servant david hast said , why did the gentiles rage and the people imagine a vaine thing ; the kings of the earth assembled , and the rulers came together against the lord , and against his christ , for doubtlesse against thy holy son iesus , whom thou hast anointed , both herod and pontius pilate , with the gentiles and the people of israell gathered themselves together , to doe whatsoever thine hand and thy counsell had determined before to be done . now every one knowes that to determine to be done , and to ordaine to be done , and to will to be done are all one : why doth not this authour censure these speeches for unsavory speeches , as well as those of maccovius ? why doth not he expose this synod of the apostles and others to the same censure ? whereunto he exposeth the synod of dort ? nay can it be avoided , but that already he hath done so , and that these censure● of his must necessarily prove the powring forth of blasphemy against the holy ghost ? seeing the speeches are used by the apostles , which he censureth for unsavorie , being utteredly maccovius ; is it not apparent that whosoever renounceth those speeches , most also renounce the word of god ? and shall it be a reproach to us that we cannot keep our owne ground , unlesse the holy ghost keepes his ground , and maintaine his owne di●lect to be savorie in spite of the vise aspersions , that this authour or any other of his spirit doth usually cast upon it , not sparing to terme such speeches , unsavorie speeches as for the last phrase that god would that all men should be saved , this is no scripture ; nay it doth imply a man fest blasphemy , namely that god cannot save them : it is true , the scripture saith that god willeth that all men should be saved , but what is meant by this note of universalities in scripture , let scripture it selfe be judge . the pharisees did t●the omne olus as austine observes not every particular her be , to give the t●th thereof , but every kind of herbe to give the tenth thereof ; so peter saw in a vessell let downe from heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not every fower footed beast in particular , but all manner of fower footed beasts , see mat : . . it is said all iudea went forth to iohn and all the region round about iordan , what can the meaning of this be , but that from all parts of judea and the region round about jordan , of all sorts some went forth to iohn not that there was not one man left behind in all judea , and in all the region round about jordan . and accordingly saint austine interpreted this place above yeares agoe , namely that god will that of all sorts , some be saved , even of kings and nobles some , though but few of such cor : . . now this is not denied either by maccovius , or by any other of our divines , only they deny it to be the will of god , that all and every one shall be sayed ; for if this were his will , it would follow , first that god is not able to save them , which is to deny the first article of the creed , as austine in this very particular disputed many hundred yeares agoe . secondly it would follow , that god is changed : for certainely when he damnes men he hath no will to save them . and what is election divine ? is it any other then the will of god ordaining unto salvation ? now who dares say that all are elect ? hath not our saviour expresly told us , that even of them that are called , but few are chosen ? yet might that synod well admonish maccovius to take heed of such words as might give offence to tender yeares , and be carefull to expresse the same truth in as inoffensive way as we can : and accordingly having a digression in this very argument , in my vindiciae gratiae i proposed it in this manner , whether the holy one of israell without any injurie to his holy majestie , may be said to will sinne after a certaine manner : and i maintaine the affirmative after this manner ; deus vult ut peccatum fiat ipso permittente , god will have sinne to come to passe by his permission ; and bellarmine confesseth that , malum esse deo permittente bonum est . it is good that evill should be by god's permission , which was also the saying of austine long before . and that non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo : not any thing comes to passe , except god omnipotent will have it come to passe , either by suffering it , or himselfe working it ; and the eleventh article of the church of ireland framed in the dayes of king j'ames runnes thus ; god from all eternitie , did by his unchangable counsell ordaine what soever in time should come to passe ; yet so as there by no violence is offered to the to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the libertie , nor the contingency of second causes is taken away , but established rather . and arminius himselfe professeth that deus voluit achabum mensuram scelerums uorum implere ; god would have achab to fill up the measure of his sinnes , and what is it to fill up the measure of his sinnes ; but to adde sinne unto sinne ? and this he delivereth without all qualification . by these instances it appeareth , that they of the first side can easily beare one with another in this difference . and to say the truth , there is no reason why they should quarrell about circumstances , seeing they agree in the substance for which they both contend . that the moving cause of reprobation is the alone will of god , and not the sinne of man originall or actuall . . that the finall impenitencie and damnation of reprobates are necessary and unavoidable by god's absolute decree . the difference which this authour takes into consideration is about the object of predestination ; and the difference in opinion thereabouts is usually to be observed threefold ( though this authour is pleased to take notice of a secondfold difference , ) for some conceive the object of predestination to be man-kind as yet not created ; others conceive the object thereof to be man-kind created , but not yet corrupted . a third sort maintaine the object thereof to be man-kind both created and corrupted . now d. iunius hath endeavoured to reconcile the three opinions , making place for each consideration in the object of predestination ; and piscator after him adventured on the like reconciliation , and hath performed it with more perspicuitie and with better successe in my judgment , then iunius ; and that according to three different acts concurring unto predestination ; the first is , saith he , god's purpose to create man-kind in adam unto different ends , now this act doth clearely require the object thereof to be man-kind not yet created . the second act he conceives to be god's decree to permit all men to fall in adam ; now this act he conceives as clearly to suppose the object thereof to be man-kind created , but not corrupted . the third & last act he conceives to be god's decree to choose some , to shew compassion on them in raising them out of sinne by saith and repentance , and of reprobating others , leaving them as be findes them , and permitting them to finish their dayes in sinne , to the end he might manifest the glorie of his grace , in saving the one ; & the glorie of his justice in damning others . now this third act he supposeth manifestly to require the object thereof to be man-kind both created and corrupted : now the authours of these severall opinions have no reason to go together by the eares about these three opinions , but with brotherly love to entertaine one another : first , because the difference herein is not so much in divinitie , as in logick and philosophie ; difference in opinion about order in intentions , being meerly logicall , and to be composed according to the right stating of the end intended , and of the meanes conducing to the end ; it being generally confessed , that the intention of the end is before the intention of meanes conducing thereunto . and that look what is first in intention , the same must be last in execution . secondly , the authours of these severall opinions about the object of predestination , doe all agree in two principall points . . that all men , before god's eternall predestination and reprobation , are considered as equall in themselves , whether as uncreated , or as created , but not corrupted , or lastly , whether created or corrupted . that god's grace only makes the difference , choosing some to worke thē to faith , & repentance , & perseverance therein ; while he rejecteth others , leaving thē as he findes them , & permitting them to finish their dayes in sinne , whereby is upheld and maintained . . first , the prerogative of god's grace as only effectuall to the working of men unto that which is good . . and secondly , the prerogative of god's soveraigntie in shewing mercy on whome he will , to bring them to faith and true repentance , and hardning others ; that is , not bestowing of grace and repentance upon them and seeing they all agree in these momentous points of divinitie , they have no cause to take it offensively at the hands of one another , that they differ in a point of logick . now i have adventured , on this argument to find out to my selfe , and give unto others some better satisfaction , then formerly hath been exhibited , and that by distinguishing two decrees only on each part , to witt , the decree of the end , and the decree of the meanes : as for example , . on the part of predestination and election , i conceive the end to be the manifestation of god's glorious grace in the way of mercie mixt with justice , on a certaine number of men . and the decree of the meanes is to create them and permit them all to fall in adam and to bring them forth into the world in their severall generations clothed with originall sinne ; and to send christ into the world to dye for them , and for christ's sake first to bestow the grace of faith and repentance upon them , and finally to save them . . on the part of reprobation i conceive the end to be the manifestation of god's glory in the way of justice vindicative ; and the decree of meanes to be partly common and partly proper ; the common meanes are to create them and permit them all to fall in adam , and bring them forth into the world clothed with originall sin ; the speciall meanes are to leave them as he finds them , and permit them to finish their daies in sinne , and so not shewing the like grace to them , which he shewed to others . . so that the moving cause of reprobation is the alone will of god , and not the sinne of man originall and actuall ; like as on the other side , the moving cause of election is only the will of god , or not faith , or any good workes , whereupon this authour is loath to manifest his opinion ; this doctrine is not only approved by doctour whitaker doctour of the chaire in the universitie of cambridge , and that in his cygnea cantio a little before his death , but justified and confirmed by varietie of testimonies both of schoolemen , as lumbard , aquinas , bannes , petrus de alliaco , gregorius , arminensis ; of our owne church and the divines thereof , as taught by bucer at cambridge , by peter martyr at oxon : professed by the bishops and others , promoted by queen elizabeth and farther in the yeare of our lord : there was a famous recantation made in the universitie of cambridge by one barret in the . of elizabeth whereunto he was urged by the heads of houses of that universitie . the recantation runnes thus , preaching in latine not long since in the universitie church , ( right worshipfull ) many things slipt from me , both falsly and rashsly spoken , whereby i understand the mindes of many have been grieved , to the end therefore i may satifie the church & the truth which i have publiquely hurt ; i doe make this publique confession , both repenting and revoking my errour ; first i said that no man in this transi●●ie world is so strongly underpropt , at least by the certainty of faith , that is ( unlesse as i afterwards expounded it ) by revelation that he ought to be assured of his owne salvation ; but now i protest before god , and acknowledge in my conscience that they which are justified by faith have peace towards god that is , have reconciliation with god , and doe stand in that grace by faith therefore that they ought to be certaine and assured of their owne salvation , even by the certainty of faith it selfe . . secondly , i affirmed that the faith of peter could not faile , but that other mens faith may ; for as ( i then said ) our lord prayed not for the faith of every particular man , but now being of a better and more sound iudgment according to that which christ teacheth in plaine words , ioh. . . i pray not for these alone , that is the apostles , but for them also which shall believe in mee through their word ; i acknowledge that christ prayed for the faith of every particular believer , and that by the vertue of that prayer of christ ; every true believer is so stayd up , that his faith cannot faile . . thirdly touching perseverance to to the end , i said that , that certainty concerning the time to come is proud , for as much as it is in his owne nature contingent of what kind the perseverance of every man is , neither did i affirme it to be proud only , but to be most wicked ; but now i freely protest that the true and justifiing faith , whereby the faithfull are most neare united unto christ , is so firme as also for the time to come so certaine , that it can never be rooted up out of the mindes of the faithfull by any temptation of the flesh , the world or divell himselfe ; so that he that once hath this faith shall ever have it ; for by the benefit of that justifying faith christ dwelleth in us and we in christ , therefore it cannot but be both increased ( christ growing in us dayly ) as also persevere unto the end , because god doth give constancy . . fourthly , i affirmed that there was no distinction in faith , but in the persons believing , in which i confesse i did erre . now i freely acknowledge the temporarie faith ( which as bernard witnesseth is therefore fained , ( because it is temporary ) it is distinguished and differeth from the saving faith , whereby sinners apprehending christ are justified before god for ever , not in measure and degrees , but in the very thing it selfe . moreover i adde that saint iames doth make mention of a dead faith , and paul of a faith that worketh by love . fifthly , i added that forgivenesse of sinnes is an article of faith , but not particular , neither belonging to this man or that man , that is ( as i expounded it ) that no true faithfull man either can or ought certainely believe that his sinnes are forgiven : but now i am of an other mind and doe freely confesse that every true faithfull man is bound by this article of faith to believe the forgivenes of sinnes , and certainely to believe that his owne particular sinnes are freely forgiven him , neither doth it follow hereupon that , that petition of the lord's prayer ( to wit ) forgive us our trespasses is needlesse ; for in that petition we aske not only the gift but also the increase of faith. sixtly , these words escaped me in my sermon viz : as for those that are not saved , i doe most strongly believe , and doe freely protest , that i am so perswaded against calvin , peter martyr and the rest , that sinne is the true and proper cause of reprobation ; but now being better instructed i say that the reprobation of the wicked is from everlasting , and that saying of saint austine to simplician to be mòst true ; viz : if sinne were the cause of reprobation then no man should be elected , because god doth know all men to be defiled with it : and that i may speak freely , i am of the same mind and doe believe concerning the doctrine of election and reprobation , as the church of england believeth and teacheth in the booke of the articles of faith , in the article of praedestination . last of all i uttered these words rashly against calvin , a man that hath very well deserved of the church of god ( to wit ) that he durst presume to lift up himselfe above the high and almighty god , by which words i doe confesse that i have done great injurie to that most learned and right good man , and i most humbly beseech you all to pardon this my rashnes , as also in that i have uttered many bitter words against peter martyr , beza , zanchy , iunius , and the rest of the same religion , being the lights and ornaments of our church , calling them by the odious names of calvin●sts and other slanderous termes , branding them with a most grevious marke of reproach ; whom because our church doth worthily reverence , it was not meet , that i should take away their good name from them . doctor fulke in like manner maintaines that reprobation is not of workes , but of god's free will , rom : : num : . his words are these , god's election & reprobation is most free , of his owne will , not upon the foresight of the merits of either of them ; for he hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will he hardeneth vers : . yet here is to be distinguished , for the explication of the truth , that god's decree of reprobation may be considered either as touching the act of god reprobating and willing , or as touching the things hereby willed or decreed ; as touching the act of god reprobating , we say as aquinas saith concerning the act of god predestinating , namely that no cause can be given thereof as from man , like as no cause can be given of god's will ; god's will being eternall , but whatsoever is in man being temporall . but as touching the things decreed or willed by reprobation , these are either the deniall of grace , or inflicting of damnation ; as touching the deniall of grace we clearely professe , that like as god of his mere will and pleasure doth shew mercy on some in bestowing the grace of faith and repentance upon them ; so god of his mere will and pleasure doth harden others in denying unto them the grace of saith and repentance ; and thus it is that doctor fulke maintaines god's election & reprobation to be most free of his owne free will , not upon the foresight of the merits of either of thē ; but touching the inflicting of damnation , we maintaine that god neither doth inflict damnation , nor ever did decree to inflict damnation of his owne mere pleasure and will , but altogether for sinne , either originall or actuall : further we maintaine , that in no moment of time or nature god doth decree to damne any man before he foreseeth the sinne for which they shall be damned . . as touching the second we willingly grant , that by vertue of god's decree , it necessarily and unavoidably followes , that whosoever dieth in finall impenitency shall be damned , neither doe i thinke this authour dares to avouch the contrary . secondly , as touching finall impenitency , wee willingly professe that upon supposition of god's decree finally to harden a man and to deny a man the grace of repentance : ( it being clearely the gift of god as scriptures testifie . act : . , and . . tim ) it is impossible that such a man should repent , neverthelesse both repentance is possible , and finall impenitency is avoidable simply ( to wit ) by grace . but this authour loves not to explicate himselfe , but i suppose he secretly maintaines , that every man hath such a power , by grace , wherby he may repent if he will , concerning which tenent of his , we nothing doubt but every man hath such a power , but we deny that such a power is grace ; we say it is nature rather , and that for this reason ; looke by what power a man may repent if he will , by the same power he may ref use to repent if he will : now if this were grace , then were grace inferior to a morall vertue : for no morall vertue leaves a man indifferent to doe good or no ; to doe good or evill ; but inclines and disposeth the will only to that which is good ; so justice disposeth a man only to just actions , not indifferentlie to that which is just , or to that which is unjust , t is true neverthelesse a man that is just may doe an unjust act if he will , but this is not by vertue of the habit of justice wherewith he is qualified ; but only by reason of the freedome of his will wich is naturall unto him ; for justice undoubtedly inclines a man's will only to that which appeareth just , and so every morall vertue inclines the will only to a vertuous act , not indifferently either to acts vertuous , or to acts vicious ; like as on the contrary a vicious habit inclines the will of man only to acts vicious , not indifferently , to acts vicious or to acts vertuous ! secondly grace is supernaturall , it were a monster in divinitie to say that supernaturall grace doth indifferently incline a man either to good or evill ; it is impossible it should incline a man save to acts supernaturall ; now every supernaturall act must needs be gratious , it cannot be sinfull or evill ; lastly whosoever hath a willto repent , such a one hath not only a power to repent , but actually doth repent , as touching the cheifest facultiein , the change whereof repentance doth consist ; for that is the will , and it is god that worketh in us both the will and the deed , in every kind of that which is truly good ; and surely to have a will to repent is a good thing , if he want power , let him and us , pray for that out of that will and desirewe have to repent , ut quod volumus implere valeamus , that what we desire to doe we may be able to doe , and we have no cause to feare that god will despise so gratious desires . to these speeches let me adde that of remigius arch-bishop of lyons , who , to rabanus arch-bishop of mentz , objecting that saint austine wrote a booke called hipognosticon against pelagius and coelestius , wherein he denied that reprobates were properly praedestinati ad interitum , predestinate to destruction , answereth , that saint austine said not so ( but some other man ) as it is supposed to purge the church of calumnie , which some ill affected ones did cast upon it ; namely that it taught that god by his predestination did impose upon men a necessity of perishing , and did withdraw the word ( praedestination ) from the point of reprobates , and gave it only to the elect , and so gave great occasion of further errour and mistake ; in this speech of his , it is clearely implyed that it was the constant doctrine of the church then , that reprobates lye under no necessitating decree of perdition . here we find inserted a passage taken out of remigius arcsh-bishop of lions his answer to rabanus arch-bishop of mentz , as it is to be found in the historie of gottescalchus written by doctor usher arch-bishop of armach , pag. . now that discourse of remigius is not in answer to rabanus arch-bishop of mentz , but unto hincmarus arch-bishop of remes . and withall this authour is pleased to geld it as he thinkes good : for whereas remigius hath it thus ; quasi deus sua praedestinatione necessitatem imponeret hominibus in suis impietatibus permanendi , & in aeternum pereundi : this authour renders it thus ; that god by his predestination did impose upon men a necessity of perishing , leaving out altogether the former , namely of imposing upon men a necessite of perishing in their impieties : and every sober man may well wonder at his dealing in this , especially seeing he hath left out that which is most materiall and most considerable ; for neither by austin's doctrine nor by our doctrine , hath god imposed upon any a necessitie of perishing , but such as finally persevere in their impieties : and will any man that is well in his wits oppose this ? sure i am , nor hincmarus , nor any other was knowne to mee to oppose this in the church of god. neither is there any necessitie inherent in man , on whom it is said to be imposed , but a consequent denomination to god's unchangeable or irresistable will , to damne all such as persist finally in their sinfull courses , without breaking thē off by repentance : all the question is about the necessity of reprobates persisting in their impieties , which might be objected , & as it seemes was objected against austin's doctrine of predestination , & by this authour is objected against ours : now by this objection , remigius cleares the doctrine of saint austine , professing this to be a calumnious imputation , and such as needed not for the answering thereof , that any such course should be taken as the authour of the booke ( intuled hypognosticon ) takes ; ( to wit ) by denying that god predestinates any to damnation , for this necessitie of persisting in sinnes was not imposed upon them by predestination in their opinion , who thereby understood no other thing then gods decreeing of such things which himselfe purposed to effect in due time ; as both remigius manifested in these words , pag. , of the same booke : non praedestinat nisi quae fuerat ipse facturus , quae utique omnia bona & justa sunt ; and austine in like manner , de bono perseverantiae , cap. . in sua quae falli mutarique non potest praescientia , opera sua disponere , illud omnino nec aliud quicquid est praedestinare , so the synod of valens , can : . praedestinatione autem deum ea tantum statuisse ( dicimus ) quae ipse vel gratuitâ misericoràiâ , vel juslo judicio facturus erat . in malis verò ipsam malitiam praescisse quia ab ipsis est , non praedestinasse quia ab illo non est : and that for good reason , because , malum non habet causam efficientem , sed deficientem , as austine writes de civit. dei lib. . cap. . but as for this necessitie in sinning , this both we and they willingly professe to flow from the sinne of adam , which god alone can cure in man and none other , as the same remigius acknowledgeth histor . gottesca . pag. . anima humana & voluntas humana sicut verè manet in morte non diligendo , ita verè transfertur de morte in vitam diligendo : but by whom is this translation wrought ? that followes ; hac dilectione non fit verè liberū arbitrium id est verè libera voluntas nisi illo liberante , id est libertatem largiente , qui ait , si vos filius liberaverit , tune verè liberi eritis , & nisi illo munere spiritus dei , de quo dicit apostolus ; ubi autem spiritus domini , ibi libertas : by this love the will is not made free , but he freeing it , who saith , if the sonne shall make you free , then shall ye be free indeed , and not otherwise then by the gift of the spirit of god whereof the apostle speakes , where the spirit of the lord is , there is liberty ; nay i am verily perswaded that hincmarus himselfe against whom remigius disputeth , is more orthodox in this argument then this authour ; for thus writes hincmarus : as is to be seen in the same history of gottescalchus . pag. . quosdam in massa peccati & perditionis justè deseruit , à qua praedestinatione sua ( id est in gratiae praeparatione ) occulto ( sed non injusto ) judicio nequaquam eripuit ; some men god justly deserted in the masse of sinne and perdition ; from which by his predestination , that is , preparation of grace , he never delivered by judgment secret , but not unjust , whereas this authour will have all men to be delivered from this masse of sinne and perdition ; by a certaine universall grace bestowed upon them , whereby they are put in a kind of indifferent estate to believe or not believe , repent or not repent if they will , which hincmarus never acknowledged ; yet this necessitie of sinning , incident to all that are brought forth into the world , in massa peccati & perditionis , in the masse of originall sinne and perdition : is not such either in their , or our opinion , as whereby they cannot but sinne ; although they would abstaine from it ; though this be obtruded upon us as it was upon remigius : whereupon he pleades for himselfe , and such as were of his mind in the doctrine of predestination after this manner , pag . nemo it a sentit aut dicit quod dei praedestinatio aliquem invitum faciat peccare , ut jam non propriae voluntatis perversitate sed divinae praedestinationis necessitate peccare videatur ; no man ( saith he ) doth so think or speak , as if god's predestination made a man to sinne against his will , in such sort as he should seeme to sinne , not through the perversnesse of his owne will , but by the necessity of divine predestination , so say we ; neither is this impotency of doing good , any where else , but in the corruption of the will , it being a morall impotency according to that of saint austine , libertas sine gratia non est libertas sed contumacia ; libertie without grace , is not libertie , but wilfullnesse , and remigius histor : gottescal : pag. . exquibus ( saith he ) speaking of reprobates , nemo potest salvari , non propter violentiam aliquam divinae potestatis , sed propter indomabilem & perseverantem nequitiam suae iniquitatis ; not one of them can be saved , not because of any violence of divine power , but by reason of the untameable & persevering naughtines of their owne iniquity , & p. . de reprobis nullum salvari ullatenus existimavi , non quia non possunt homines de bono ad malū commutari & de malis ac pravis boni ac recti fieri , sed quia in meliùs mutare noluerunt , & in pessimis operibus usque ad fiaē perseverare voluerunt ; not only of the reprobates doe we judge to be saved , not because they could not be changed from evill to good , & of evill & depraved become good & right , but because they would not be chāged into better . & would to the end persevere in wicked workes ; so then they could be changed but would not : but in what respect is it said they could be changed ? was it in respect of the freedome of their wills without grace ? nothing lesse ; see his owne words , pag. . si dixisset generaliter , nemo hominum sine dei gratia libero benè uti potest arbitrio , esset catholicus : had he said generally that no man can rightly use his free will , without the grace of god , he had been a catholique . but all the question is about the manner how this grace doth worke ( to wit ) whether god gives men grace to believe and repent if they will , and leaves to them to performe the act of faith and repentance ; or whether god worketh the very act of faith and repentance , not to dispute of this point out of god's word , which clearely teacheth , that , god workes in us the will and the deed , according to his good pleasure . philip. . . and that he makes us perfect to every good worke ; working in us that which is pleasing in his sight through iesus christ : let us take notice of the discourse between hincmarus and remigius on this argument ; that till the love of god comes , man is dead ; his will is dead to that which is good ; now love is only given to the believers , posse charitatem habere naturae est hominum , charitatem autem habere gratiae est fidelium , de praedestinatione sanctorum , cap. . for thus writes hincmarus , pag. . . bonum quod agimus & dei est & nostrum , dei per praevenientem gratiam , nostrum per subsequentē liberam voluntatem , the good that we doe is both god's worke and ours ; of god by grace preventing , ours by free will following : to this remigius answers , and first he saith , hincmarus discoureseth after such a manner , as if a good worke were partly god's worke and partly ours : and againe as if the beginning of a good worke were god's , but the effect thereof of man's free will ; although as he ( hincmarus ) doth endeavour to temper this speech of his , by the addition of grace , not by the fulnesse of it ; gratiae adjunctione non etiam plen●tudine , by the adjunction of grace , not also by the fulnesse of it : so he should have done saith remigius , cum verè totum sit dei ; seeing indeed the whole is god's worke ; as the truth it selfe saith , without me ye can do nothing : and the apostle ; what hast thou that that thou hast not received ? whence the blessed and glorious martyr cyprian hath so defined it , saying , we must glory in nothing , seeing nothing is ours : and concludes thus ; bonum itaque nostrum totum dei est , quia totum est ex deo ; & nihil boni nostri , nostrum est , quia nihil boni nostri est ex nobis : therefore our good workes , are holy god's , and noe good of ours is ours , because it is not of us ; and to reconcile this seeming contradiction , in calling it our good , yet denying it to be from us , he concludes thus , omne bonum nostrum , & totum dei est , donando ; & totum nostrum est , accipiendo : every good thing of ours is wholy god's in as much as he gives it , and it becomes ours full and whole , for as much as we receive it . fulgentius is plaine for it to , lib. . ad monium , pag. . these whome god foresaw would dye in sinne , he decrees should live in endles punishment ; i may take in saint austine , and prosper also , who are judged to be the patrons of he absolute decree , as it is set downe in the sublapsarian way ; even they doe many times let fall such speeches , as cannot fairely be reconciled with absolute reprobation . i will only cite prosper ; for saint austine , speakes in him ; he discoursing of some that fall a way , à sanctitate ad immunditiem , from holinesse to uncleannesse ; saith , they that fall away from holinesse to uncleannesse ; lye not under a necessity of perishing , because they were not predestinate ; but therefore they were not predestinate , because they were knowne to be such by voluntary praevarication . not long after speaking of the same men ; he saith , because god foresaw they would perish by their owne free will ; therefore , he did not by any predestination lever them from the children of perdition . and againe in his answer to the twelvth objection , he hath these words . god hath not withdrawne from any man ability to yeeld obedience , because he hath not predestinated him ; but because he foresaw he would fall from obedience ; therefore he hath not predestinated him . they are i confesse the wordes of fulgentius in the : chapter of his first booke ad monium , and in the very next chapter , he doth expresse himselfe in this manner on the point of predestination unto glory ; praedestinavit illos ad snpplicium quos à se praescivit voluntatis malae vitio decessuros ; & praedestinavit ad regnum quos ad se praescivit misericordiae praevenientis auxilio redituros , & in se misericordiae subsequentis auxilio mansuros : he predestinateth those untopunishment , whom he foresaw to be such as would depart from him through the fault of a naughty will ; and he predestinated to the kingdome those whom he foresaw to be such as would returne unto him by the help of mercy prevenient , and would persevere in him by the helpe of grace subsequent ; so that upon the same ground he may as well deny predestination unto salvation to be absolute in the opinion of fulgentius , as predestination unto damnation : now vossius in his preface to the pelagian historie , having first confessed that all antients agreed in this , that god did not ordaine any other unto eternall salvation , then such who by his mere gift of grace should have the beginning of faith and good will , and persevere in that which is good , as it was foreseen by him : in the next place acknowledgeth , that austine and prosper and the authour of the booke de vocatione gentium ; and fulgentius , unto this common opinion of catholiques did adde this ; that this praescience divine did flow from god's absolute decree to save them . this i say vossius writes , though , i see no cause to regard his judgment in this argument . his distinction is very well knowne of will absolute and will conditionall ; which will conditionate he examplifies thus , as when god will have salvavation conferred upon a man in case he doth believe ; what one of our divines doth deny a conditionall will , in this sense in reference to salvation ? now what one of the antients ( the pelagians excepted ) can this authour produce ; that doth affirme any such will to be in god , for the bestowing of faith upon a man ? for to maintaine this , were in plaine termes to maintaine , that it was the will of god that grace should bestowed according unto workes : but if the grace of god be bestowed merely according to the good pleasure of god , as saint paule saith ; god hath mercy on whom he will ? by this it is aparent , that this decree is absolute , and consequently that predestination is absolute ; and thus austine coupleth together the doctrine of the bestowing grace not according unto workes , and his doctrine of predestination as inseparable , each to be granted or denied together with the other . because this authour pretends it to be needles to cite austine , and sufficient to cite prosper , adding that austine speakes in him , to wit , after he was dead ; such is this authours jugling course with his reader ; therefore i will represent austine himselfe proposing the objection made by the massilienses , against austin's doctrine of predestination , as it was sent unto him by prosper , and then answering it , not leaving it unto prosper to answer for him : see the objection , sed aiunt ( ut scribitis ) neminem posse correptionis stimulis excitari , si dicatur in conventu ecelesiae audientibus multis , it a se habet de praedestinatione definita sententia voluntatis dei , ut alii ex vobis de infidelitate , accepta obediendi voluntate , veneritis ad fidem , vel accepta perseverantia maneatis in fide &c. but they say ( as ye write ) that none can be stirred up by the goad of correption , if it be said in the congregation in the hearing of many , such as touching predestination is the determinate sentence of the will of god , that some of you receiving an obedient will , shall come from infidelitie unto faith , or receiving perseverance shall continue in the faith : but the rest , who continue in sinfull delights , therefore you have not risen , because the succour of commiserant grace , hath not as yet raised you . but if there be any not yet called whom god hath predestinated to be elected by his grace , ( or whom his grace hath predestinated to be elected ) ye shall receive the same grace , whereby to will and be elect. and as for those that doe obey , if you are not predestinated to be elect , the strength of obedience shall be withdrawne that you may cease to obey : thus farre the objection , austin's answer followeth thus ; when these things are said , they ought not to to deterre us , from confessing god's grace ( to wit ) which is not given according unto workes , and from confessing predestination according thereunto ; like as we are not terrified from confessing god's foreknowledge , if a man should discourse thereof in this manner before the people ; whether now ye live well or not well , such shall ye be hereafter , as god foresees ye will be , either good , if he foresees ye will be good ; or evill , if he foresees he will be evill : for what if upon the hearing hereof some give themselves to sloth , and from labour prone to lust goe after their concupisences ; shall we therefore conceive that to be false which was delivered concerning god's foreknowledge ? and so he proceeds to justifie the truth of this doctrine which was objected against him by way of crimination , i say to justifie it as touching the substance of it , though as touching the manner of proposing it , he confesseth that to be unreasonably harsh in some particulars ; and shewes how that may be proposed in a more decent manner , still holding up the same truth , thus austine was able to answere for himselfe , whilest he was living ; now let us consider how prosper answers for him after he was dead . and first let us consider the objection it selfe ; now it is this , that they who are not predestinate unto life , although they live piously and righteously , it shall nothing profit them , but they shall be reserved so long untill they perish : now this is painely a part of the objection made by the massilienses and they were galli , * whom prosper answereth , for the objection proposed to austine was , that , strength of obedience should be taken from them ; but in the objection of the galli , whom prosper answeres it is set dowe in a milder manner , thus , they shall be reserved untill they perish . now austine himselfe accomodates his answer hereunto in particular , de bono perseverantiae , cap. . for shewing the unreasonable harshnessein this manner of proposing it : i wonder ( saith he ) if any weak man in a christian people can by any meanes heare with patience that which followes ; as namely when it is said unto them , yee that doe obey , if ye be predestinated to be rejected , the strength of obedience shall be withdrawne from you that you may cease to obey ; for thus to speake what seemeth it to be other , then to curse or to prophesie evill after a sort ; then he proceeds to she whow the same truth may be delivered in a fairer manner , still holding up the truth of the doctrine of predestination ; if ( saith he ) a man thinke good to speake something of such as doe not persevere , and need be so to doe . what failes of the truth of this sentence if it be delivered thus ? but if some doe obey , that are not predestinated unto the kingdome and to glorie ; they are temporarie ones , and shall not persevere in the same obedience unto the end . then he proceeds to shew how the same objection may be framed against god's praescience , thus ; et si qui obeditis , si praesciti estis , rejiciendi obedire cessabtis ; if any of you doe obey , if with all ye are foreseen to be rejected ye shall cease to obey , whereby ye may observe , how austine in framing the objection , leaves out the phrase of withdrawing the strength of obedience , as containing a calumnious imputation , and such as austine had nothing to doe with in the course of his opinion concerning predestination . thus austine hath plainely answered for himselfe , and needs noe other to answer for him , and his answer proceeds without all colour of prejudice to his owne doctrine , concerning the absolutenesse of predestination by this let the reajudge of the ingenuitie of this authour , who conceales all this from his reader , bearing him in hand , that austine speakes in prosper making answere to his objection , whereas indeed there is a vast difference between prosper's answer for austine , and austin's answer for himselfe : but like enough prosper was willing to condescend to the galli , * and to gratifie them with an answer , that in his judgment might be more acceptable and satisfactorie unto them ; to the consideration whereof i now proceed , and therein to consider prosper , not austin's mind , concerning predestination , as which he hath sufficiently manifested in answer to the same objection , as i have shewed ; therefore ( saith prosper ) they are not predestinated , because they were foreseen to be such hereafter by their voluntarie praevarication , what will follow herence ? that foresight of sinnes was the cause why they were not predestinated unto life ? i answere , first by denying this consequence , for it may as well follow that the creatours love is the cause why sinnes are forgiven him , for the gospell saith of the woman , luk : the . therefore many sinnes are forgiven her , because she loved much ; such illations are not alwaies causall , but very often merely rationall . secondly , let it be causall , and that foresight of sinne is the cause of non predestination unto life , and accordingly of predestination unto damnation , yet here i have a double answer . first it is the most generall opinion , that reprobation as it signifies a purpose to damne , and accordingly to exclude from heaven , presupposeth the prescience of sinne : m. perkins expresly professeth as much , and other divines at the synod of dort ; yet this hinders not the absolutenesse of reprobation , which appeares in the purpose of god to deny grace , and that absolutely to some , like as he bestowes it upon others ; i meane the grace of faith and regeneration ; otherwise grace should be given according to workes : now let any passage be produced out of prosper , or any other orthodox writer among'st the antients to shew , that god in distributing these graces unto some , and denying them unto others , did not proceed absolutely , but according unto workes ; and according to this doctrine , it is well knowne that austine shaped his doctrine concerning predestination , as it hath been shewed at large in the answer to m. hord , in the first section ; secondly that there may be a cause of predestination and reprobation , aquinas doth not deny , but how ? quoad res volitas , as touching things willed , or , praedestinatione & reprobatione praepartas , by predestination and reprobation prepared , and in this sense aquinas himselfe confesseth that , foresight of sinne is the cause of reprobation , the nineth to the romans ; & see how he explicates himselfe , his wordes are these , lect : . praescientia peccatorum potest esse aliqua ratio reprobationis ex parte poenae quae preparatur reprobatis : in quantum scil : deus proponit se puniturum malos propter peccata quae à se ipsis habent , non à deo. the foresight of sinnes may be some reason of reprobation as touching the punishment , which is prepared for reprobates , in asmuch as god decreeth to punish wicked men for their sinnes , which they have of themselves , not of god : but of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating , there can be noe more cause thereof , then there can be a cause of god's will as touching the act of god willing . and upon this very ground it is , that aquinas professeth that * never any man was so mad as to affirme that there may be a cause given of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating ; let us therefore forbeare to impute any such opinion to prosper or any other of the antients ; which none ever was so mad as to maintaine in the judgment of aquinas . the same answer will serve for the next , derived out of the same place in prosper : as for the third of withdrawing strength of obedience ; this indeed was objected unto austine , as if in his opinion god did so ; wheras i have shewed also how austine signifies that he had nothing to doe with that , and therefore he leaves that quite out . and indeed austin's is cleare and expresse , that as many as god hath not predestinated , those he never bring 's unto wholsome and spirituall repentance , whereby a man is reconciled unto god in christ . cont : iulian : pelag : lib. . cap. . and consequently he never brings them to any true obedience . the whole sentence in prosper hath no more moment then the former , and therefore admits the same answer . a testimony or two i will borrow likewise from some person of note , and those saint austin's followers too , who lived about yeares after saint austin's time . remigius the great patron of gotteschalke the zeatous preacher and publisher of absolute reprobation in those times , in his answer to that epistle , which we suppose to be the epistle of rabanus ; saying , that god did make the nations of the world , and that he doth will that all men should be saved ; he gives such an answer as cannot stand with absolute reprobation ; this , saith he , is very true , because god layeth on noe man a necessity of perishing , as he hath laid on none a necessity of sinning : and a little after he is plainer ; those whom god did fore know would live and dye in their wickednesses for reasons most just , should perish , as himselfe saith , him that sinneth against me , even him will i blot out of my booke . in the valantine synod assembled in the favour of gotteschalke , we may find these words ; therefore doe the wicked perish , not because they could not , but would not be good , and by their owne fault originall or actuall , also , remained in the masse of perdition ; and in the end of their . cannon : they pronounced anathema to those , that hold that men are so predestinated unto evill as they cannot be otherwise . that any should be ( saith the councell ) predestinated unto evill by the power of god ; so as he cannot be otherwise , we doe not only not believe , but also if there be any that will believe so great an evill , with all detestation we denounce them accursed ; as the councell also did . this authour grants remigius to be a patron of absolute reprobation : but these words of his , this authour saith , cannot stand with absolute reprobation : remigius undoubtedly thought they could ; otherwise he must have renounced the doctrine of absolute reprobation and the patronage thereof , which yet he did not ; as this authour acknoledgeth : now is it enough for this authour , to say that these words cannot stand with absolute reprobation and barely to say it , without proving ought ? and truely i have found such to be the imperious carriage of this authour in manuscript , now i see it in print ; but let us endeavour to cleare remigius , by proving the contrary : indevour to cleare remigius , by proving the contrary . therefore it is well knowne that the terme absolute stand's in opposition to conditionall . now this distinction of will absolute and will conditionall gerardus vossius doth accommodate in respect of the things willed of god , and gives instance of god's will of saving , which he saith is conditionall : forasmuch as god purposeth not to bestow salvation on any , but such as believe , faith being by god's ordinance the condition of obtaining salvation . in like sort doctor iackson in his book of providence acknowledgeth the distinction of voluntas antecedens , and consequens is to be understood not on the part of god willing , but on the part of things willed : now the things willed in the decree of reprobation , are two , contrary to things willed in election : for as in election god doth will the conferring of grace , and the conferring of salvation ; soe in reprobation god doth will the deniall of grace and inflicting of damnation : now remigius in the passages here produced , speakes altogether of god's will to inflict damnation , and he denies that god's will is to inflict damnation on any man absolutely , but only conditionally ( to wit ) in case of finall perseverance in sinne , and so say we with remigius : but as touching god's will to deny grace , we utterly deny that god will have grace to be denied upon a condition , for nothing can be devised to be the condition thereof , but sinne either originall or actuall . and if upon such a condition grace should be denied , it should be denied to all seeing before grace is given , all are found to be under sinne actuall or originall , and consequently all should be reprobates , even every mothers sonne . . and if to avoid this , it be said : although all be sinners , yet grace is denyed to none , but such as want a certaine particular obedience ; then upon the performing of that obedience grace should be conferred ; this is as much as to say that grace is conferred according unto workes ; which doctrine hath ever been abominated by the orthodox in opposition unto the pelagians . now the apostle clearely makes for us in this , professing that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth . now though there passages produced out of remigius carrie some shew against absolute reprobation from glorie , or unto damnation ; yet have they noe colour or shew of opposing absolute reprobation from grace ; as for necessitie of perishing , that is merely conditionall ( to wit ) in case of finall continuance in sinne without repentance ; and as for necessitie of sinning , that we confesse is found in all , in state of nature , corvinus confesseth it to be the doctrine of arminius that , all men naturally are cast upon a necessitie of sinning . * and doctor potter proposeth it as the doctrine of the church of england , that , in a naturall man there is no libertas a peccato , libertie from sinning ; which yet is to be understood aright , not but that it is in his power to abstaine from any particular sinfull act ; for no supernaturall act is or can be sinfull , every sinfull act must needs be an act naturall ; and power either to doe or to abstaine from any naturall act , is not to be denied to any naturall man. but it is impossible that any naturall man should abstaine from any sinne , or doe any naturall good act ( so commonly accounted ) in a gratious manner , untill grace comes , so to season the heart of man as to love god , even to the contempt of himselfe , and out of his love to doe that good which he doth , and to abstaine from that evill , from which he abstaineth . . but if the question be of the manner how this necessitie of sinning is brought upon the nature of man ; we say , it is not by the pleasure of god : but by the sinne of adam , according to that of the apostle , rom : . by one man sinne entred into the world , and death by sinne : for man by reason of sinne was justly bereaved of the spirit of god , and begetting children in this condition , he begets them after his owne image and likenesse , that is bereaved of the spirit of god. and we hold it impossible for a man bereaved of god's spirit , either to doe that which is good , or abstaine from doing that which is evill in a gratious manner . . secondly , i come to the synod of valense , when they say , the wicked not perish because they could not doe good , but because they would not . these words may seeme to imply that even the wicked could doe good if they would ; and truely i see noe cause to deny this : but that we may safely say with austine ; that , omnes possunt deo credere & ab amore rerum temporalium ad divina praecepta servanda se convertere , si velint : believe god if they will , and from the love of all things temporall convert themselves to the keeping of god's commandements if they will ; for if a man would goe to church but cannot , because he is lame , would read in god's word , but cannot , because he is blind : these impotencies are naturall not morall : but the impotency brought upon mankind by the sinne of adam is morall not naturall . now morall impotency is found noe where but in the will , or at least is chiefly there , and secondly in the understanding also , as touching knowledge practicall ; and accordingly when scriptures testifie that they who are in the flesh cannot please god , rom : : cannot repent , rom : : connot believe ioh : . this impotency consist's cheifly in the corruption of their wills , noted by the hardnesse of heart , rom : . . eph : . . againe i have already shewed out of remigius , that a wicked man can doe that which is good , but by what meanes ? ( to wit ) by grace , not otherwise . the words are these ; si dixisset generaliter , nemo hominum sine dei gratia libero bene uti potest arbitrio esset catholicus ; had he said generaly , not any man can use his free will without grace , he were catholique . and pag. : the same remigius hath these words , in infidelibus ipsum liberum arbitrium ita per adam damnatum & perditum , in operibus mortuis liberum esse potest , in vivis non potest ; free will so damned and lost in adam , may be free in dead workes , in living workes it cannot : yet pag. : thus he distinguisheth , answerably to the passage alleaged by this authour . de reprobis nullum salvari ullatenus existimamus , non quia non possunt homines de malo ad bonum commutari , ac de malis ac pravis boni ac recti fieri , sed quia in melius mutari noluerunt , & in pessimis operibus usque ad finem perseverare voluerunt . and pag. . florus of the church of lyons where remigius was byshop , sets downe the same truth more at large , thus , habet homo post illam damnationem liberum arbitrium , quo voluntate propria inclinari potest & inclinatur ad malum , habet liberum arbitrium , quo potest assurgere ad bonum , ut autem assurgat ad bonum non est propriae virtutis sed gratiae dei miserantis ; nam & qui mortuus est , potest dici posse vivere , non tamen sua virtute , sed dei , ita & liberum arbitrium hominis semel sauciatum , semel mortuum potest sanari , non tamen sua virtute sed gratia miserantis dei , & ideo omnes homines admonentur , omnibus verbum praedicatur , quia habent posse credere , posse converti ad deum : ut verbo extrinsecus admonente & intus deo suscitante , qui audiunt , reviviscant : man hath after that damnation ( to wit ) such as followed after adam's fall ) free will , so that of his owne will he can be inclined and is inclined to evill , he hath free will whereby he may rise unto a good condition : but that he doth arise to that good condition , is not in his owne power ; but of the grace of god compassionating him ; for of him also who is dead , it may be said that he may live , yet not by his owne power but by the power of god. soe man's free will also being once wounded , once dead may be restored , not by his owne power , but by god's grace pitying him and therefore al men are admonished , to all the word is preached , because they have this that they may believe , they may be converted unto god , that by the word outwardly admonishing & god inwardly raising , they which heare may revive . as touching the last , condemning those who say that any should be so predestinated to evill by god , that they cannot be otherwise , this authour would faine insinuate into his reader an opinion ; that wicked men may change from evill to good of themselves ; but neither doth the councill of valens , or remigius a chiefe man therein , intimate any such thing ; but only that it is in god's power by his grace to change them , and so hath changed and will change the hearts of many , namely of all his elect , but not of one other . that the remonstrants did not at that time desire that it should be talked of , among the common people , who might have stumbled at it , but disputed of , among'st the judicious and learned , who as the threshing oxen who are to beate the corne out of the huske , are to bolt out those truthes which are couched and hidden in the letter of the scriptures . that the doctrine which is loath to abide the triall even of learned men , carrieth with it a shrewd suspicion of falshood , the heathen oratour shall witnesse for me ; who to epicurus seeing that he would not publish his opinion to the simple people ; who might happily take offence at that , answereth thus . declare thy opinion in the place of judgment , or if thou art affraid of the assembly there , declare that in the senate amongst those grave and judicious persons . thou wilt never doe it , and why ? but because it is a fowle and dishonest opinion . true religion ( as vives saith ) is not a thing guilded over but gold it selfe : the more it is scraped and discovered , the brighter and goodlier it is ; and so is the truth . vives de verbo sidei , lib. . pag. . disputations illustrate and set forth true opinions more then silence can ; let us not feare therefore ( saith he ) lest our faith when it is laid open appeare filthy to the beholders . id ib : let fa se and superstitious religions in which there is noe soundnesse be afraid of this . the jew is loath to reason with the christian touching his law : and the turke is forbidden to dispute of his alcoran , because their religions are brittle like glasie broken with the least touch , vives lib. . pag. . but the christian who is confident of the goodnesse of his faith feareth noe examination ; but rather as much as may be , solliciteth and provoketh his adversarie to the cumbate . truth whether it be in men or doctrines , is best when it is uncovered . of the five considerations proposed in this discourse , as it was first penned and transmitted to a friend , the fifth is changed and in the place thereof this incerted , and it concernes the third instance given of the synodicall divines in the synod of dort. now it is already shewed in the answer to the former discourse how immodestly the authour carrieth himselfe , in charging that synod with unwillingnesse to come to the triall , who justified their proceedings in the judgment of all the forraigne divines there present , for whereas the remonstrants did once and againe professe that they could not in conscience any longer stay in the synod , vnlesse it were provided for , that they might treate of election and reprobation . and that after that manner which they had set downe in their theses and writings exhibited to the synod ; hereupon the sinod to give them satisfaction herein ordered , that their opinion not only concerning election , but also concerning reprobation should be weighed and examined : soe far forth as they in conscience should judge to be sufficient , for the glory of god , for the edifying and quieting of the church and all mens consciences ; but as touching the manner of proceeding herein , it perteyned to them to consider and ordeine as they thought good . and it became not those who where cited to appear , to prescribe unto the sinod . this decree being read the session conteynes the altercation here abouts , betweene the synod and them . they forsooth would prescribe to the synod , de modo agendi ; the synod must not unto them . the synod hereupon intreates the judgment of forrain divines . and they all with one consent professe that the synod had granted the remonstrants as much libertie for the defence of their cause , as in equitie could be granted and could well stand with the honour of the synod . and therefore there is no cause why the decree of the synod should be altered , or why the remonstrants should complaine or decline the authority of the synod ; that nothing was put upon them burthen some to their consciences : and therefore it was in vaine to pretend scruples of conscience , as in the session there is a representation made of their unreasonable demaund ; namely in the first place to deale upon reprobation &c : whereupon the opinion of forrain divines was required ; as whether it was fit to yeild unto them in this , and to treat of reprobation before they treated of election , who declared by concurring suffrages that course ( proposed by them ) to be most unreasonable : now let the reader judge how unshamefast that crimination is , which this author chargeth that synod with , and consequently all the the forreine divines therein assembled , who justified those synodicall proceedings with their unanimous consent . surely this author hath an high opinion of himselfe , and his owne sufficiencies , who thinkes this bolt of his soone shot , more worth then the concurrent verdict of all those divines , chosen as eminent persons by their severall churches , and sentunto that sinod from many places of christendome . now hee who in the progresse of his unshamefast discourse , spares not thus to taxe a synod and all the forrain divines that assembled therein , no mervell if he forbeare not to charge the contra remonstrants in the hague conference with the same crimination , though never so injuriously ; thus indeede the remonstrants in the synod of dort , criminate their adversaries as appeares in the synodalia dodcacena pag : . in the conference at hague the contra-remonstrants deprecated that they might not be put to deale on reprobation , and more at large pag : . in the same writings ; we reade how festus hommius one of the contra-remonstrants in that conference at the hague , hereupon stood up , exposuitque paucis quod non bona fide haec de illis dicerentur , how unfaithfully this relation was made , se libello supplice non fuisse deprecatos ne de reprobatione ageretur ; that they did not in their supplication intreat that no disputation should be had of reprobation ▪ and therewithall the truth of the matter as formerly i have set downe in answear to the former discourse , and as for beza in the conferrence with iacobus andreas in the point of predestination : it is true at the first motion he declyned it , and he gives his reasons , . namely that thy were not called by the prince of mompelgard to dispute on this article but on another which was expressed in the princes letters , as iacobus andreas acknowledgeth : and accordingly they had commission from their church that sent them , to dispute on that whereunto they were called and not on any other . . and soe they came provided to dispute on that which was expressed in the princes letters who invited them . . then againe it was in a lutheran assembly . . neither would andeas yeild to beza's motions that the conference might be transacted by writing . . nor that which was to be delivered by them should be taken by notaries . . yet they offered to propose their doctrine on that argument before the prince , and to heare what jacobus andreas had to say against it and promised to returne him an answer thereunto ; thirdly , consider it was not predestination alone , whereof they were unwilling at that time and in that place to conferre about , but two other articles also , namely as concerning baptisme , and images in churches ; why then , doth not this author plead as well for images in churches , as for the conditionall nature of reprobation : as well he may upon the same ground ? fourthly , what sottishnesse possesseth this authour to conclude , that because beza at such a time , and in such a place , and upon such and such tearmes , did refuse to dispute thereon ; therefore all that professe the same doctrine with beza doe refuse to come to triall there abouts , and consequently that doctrine is suspectable of untruth ; whereas it cannot be concluded of beza simply that he refused to come to a triall , because once at a certaine time and in a certaine place , and in a conference upon certaine termes he did refuse to come to a tryall : for my part , i refuse not to come to a triall with any of them upon any particular : but i noe way thinke fit to entertaine a conferrence here about by wordes of mouth , but rather by writing ; so it will be more quietly carried , so it will be more free from aliene discourse ; so each party shall have time both duely to weigh the adversaries argument and with due consideration to put in his answer thereunto ; and is it not farre more decent that the holy things of god should be handled premeditately , rather then subitaneously ? fistly , what if beza were of opinion that god hath chosen some unto eternall life , and passed by others without any respect had to the personall goodnesse of the one , or naughtinesse of the other , and that this is saint paule's doctrine , rom : . this was saint austin's opinion also as vossius acknowledgeth in his historie of pelagian heresies p. . now will any man thinke him well in his wits who discourseth after this manner ; surely austin's doctrine concerning election and reprobation is suspectable of untruth ; because beza maintaining the same doctrine some yeares after , was unwilling to come to a tryall thereabouts at a certaine time in a certaine place , namely at mompelgard before the duke of wirtenberg ? lastly , observe the strange inconsiderations of this authour ; for the authour of the former discourse promised the gentleman his friend to whom he wrote , to give him the reason of his change in opinion , not in this point only of reprobation , but in the other points also , for he perceived he was become an arminian : now whereas he gives him the reason of his change in one point only , declining all the rest , doth he not manifest his unwillingnesse to deale on all the other points ? and may not wee conclude after this authours manner , that this betrayes no small suspicion , that certainely his cause is weak and ill grounded in all the rest ? in like manner doth this achates carry himselfe , he that helps of the other to make his taske for him . it is his usuall course to deale only upon the point of reprobation , as in this place ; so in a writing of his to a certaine scholer , and as i have seen under his hand ; it seemes he is well conceited of his sufficiencie on this point : and truely i am very glad to see what he can say for himselfe , even on the point of reprobation that which followes is to little purpose , save to shew the plerofphorie of his common place-book : and how easily it is for him to abound , not only in things necessary , but in things unnecessary also : therefore he tells us what cicero writes of epicurus , which may with a farre better grace be retorted upon himselfe then upon beza , or the contra-remonstrants at the hague conferrence ; or the fathers of dort , how unfacetiously it is applyed unto them i have already shewed , and further it is well knowne both by calvins , and beza's writings , and by that which was done in the synod of dort , set forth to the veiwe of all the world , that they have not concealed their opinions from the world on those points controverted ; all that are able to read and understand latine , may soone come accquainted with them : and m. hord dealing only upon reprobation which is but a part of one of the five articles , and forbearing to meddle with election or any other of the five , contrary to the promise made by him unto his friend , doth he not hereby bewray consciousnesse of his owne insufficiencie to meddle thereon ? and like enough he hath learned this wisedome from his abettor ( and this is his course ) who loves to deale in hugger mugger , and sets others on worke , contented to blowe the coales ; yet walkes gloriously at the light of his owne fire , and the sparkes that he hath kindled , vaunting ( as i heare ) that his peece cannot be answered , and in such termes he commends it unto the country . in like manner let the indifferent reader judge , whether , that which he produceth out of lodovicus vives be more against us , then against the authour himselfe that produceth it ; for both calvin , and beza and generally our divines have publiquely professed their opinions , not on predestination only , but on reprobation also , and upon all other points controverted between us and the arminians ; whereas this auhour sculkes and pulls in his hornes as if he dared not to be seen on other points ; only declares himselfe upon the point of reprobation ; i meane m. horde ; but as for the other which blowes quick-silver into him , he is loath to be knowne , as if his occupation were with brontesque steropesque & nudus membra pyracmon , to take paines to make thunder-bolts for iupiter , or for mercury rather ; for he is content an other should be the chiefe speaker . ly . the iew he saith , is loath to reason with the christian touching his law , and the turke is forbidden to speak of his alcoran ; but have i shewed my selfe loath to reason with this brontes , in any particular difference between us , or with any among'st them that weares a head upon his shoulders ? i trust , i never shall , as long as i breath , as for this authour , the world is witnesse how deeply guilty he is in this kind , contrary to his owne promise : but he may thanke his prompter that he deales in this , and he indeed had made noe such promise to to confine him , but out of his fox-like carriage , makes choise to deale only on this , where he hopes to meet with a favourable winde from vulgar and popular conceits , to to fill his failes to carry him prosperously into their affections , be his arguments never so weak : never so insipid . now it is well knowne unto him , that my answer to the former discourse hath now been in the the hands of others for the space of two yeares and a halfe , and not the smallest passage thereof doe i find answered here . and this seconds conscience knoweth whether he hath not been full well acquainted with it , before this peece of his did see the light of the presse : now because this alone might justly prove notoriously prejudiciall to the whole , see what a dog-trick hath been played , to antedate the edition thereof , as if it were printed anno , when it hath been but a few monthes since this hath been knowne unto the world , that the reader may imagine if it please him , that this was printed before my answere was returned to the former discourse . and to what purpose is the discourse brought to the bulke , which that hath at present , so many odde things being inserted thereunto ; but to provide for their indemnitie that shall say , this was never it answered , whereat i wounder not a little , namely at the cunning and crafty carriage of this second , who for good reason may be accompted the first , in asmuch as he useth the other but as a stalking-horse to promote his owne game , i say i may , and doe wounder not a little at this , for he both carrieth himselfe and others boast of him , as if he were some formidable creature , and lyon like to affright all others that should deale with him , when in very truth all his performances savour farre more of the fox then of the lyon. and it is also disstastfull to all the greek churches ; moulin in his anotomy speaking of the supralapsarian doctrine ; saith , if it should be so that god hath reprobated men without the consideration of sinne , or hath ordained them to sinne . yet it is the part of a wise man to conceale these things , or not to know them rather then to utter them : because , when they are taught and defended they fill mens heads with sceuples , and give occasion to the adversaries to the defaming the true religion . the same may as truely be said of the sublapsarian way , for as i have said , they are in substance all one ; and sir edwin sandes is of the same mind too ; for in his most excellent booke caled a survay of the state of religion , in the westerne part of the world ; speaking of the deadly division between the luthernas and the calvinists in germany , he hath these wordes ; that , though ●he palsgrave and lansgrave have with great judgment and wisedome , to slake those flames , imposed silence in that part to the ministers of their party , hoping the charitie and discretion of the other party would have done the like ; yet it falls out otherwise ; for both the lutheran preachers raile as bitterly against them in their pulpits as ever , and their princes and people have them in as greate detestation ; not forbearing to professe openly , that they will returne to the papacie rather then ever admit that sacrementary and predestinary pestilence . and as for the grecians , we learne also by sir edwin sandes his relation , that they doe mightilie dissent from the doctrines touching the eternall counsells of god , which calvin ( as some conceive ) first fully revealed or rather introduced into the christian world , and some of his friends and followers have seconded ; as thinking it very injurious to the goodnesse of god , and directly immediatly opposite to his very nature , in regard of which , on of their byshops hath written a booke against it , which hath been sent to geneva and there received . and to say on thing more , besides this infamy among christians , it is very probable that among the too many scandals given to the jewes by christians among whom they dwell ; this doctrine is not on of the least rubs in the way of their conversion . for they thinke it a bad opinion ( saith the same judicious and learned gentleman ) which some of great name have seemed to hold , that god in his everlasting and absolute pleasure should affect the extreame miserie of any of his creatures , for the shewing of his justice and severitie in tormenting them , or that the calamitie , casting a way and damnation of some , should absolutely and necessarily redound more to his glorie then the felicitie of them all , considering that his nature is mere goodnesse and happinesse , and hath noe affinity with rigour and misery . and secondly the determination of the end doth necessarily involve the meanes that preceeds the end , as if a man before determined to damnation , he must unavoidably sinne else he could not be damned . as touching this paticular of m. moulyn : i have addressed an answer puctually thereunto in my vindiciae amongst my degressions touching predestination , yet i am content to say something concerning the point it selfe and his judgment thereupon . reprobation hath two parts , which this authour most judiciously confounds , the one is god's decree to deny grace , the other is his decree to inflict damnation ; as touching the first , the very execution thereof proceeds merely according to god's pleasure , howmuch more the decree it selfe , which is eternall , and cannot possibly have any precedaneous thereunto ; whereas the execution is temporall , and temporall things may have somewhat precedaneous thereunto . now that the execution thereof is merely according to god's good pleasure is apparent ; the execution thereof being no other then the denyall of grace ; and as god of his mere pleasure gives faith and repentance to whom he will ; so of his mere pleasure he denies it unto others ; otherwise grace should be conferred according unto workes , which was condemned in the synod of palestine , pelagius himselfe subscribing thereunto above yeares agoe , and all along afterwards it was condemned in divers synods gatherd together for suppressing of the pelagian heresie . now did m. moulin think it noe wise part to publish this doctrine , that grace is not given according unto workes ; but according to the mere pleasure of god ? nothing lesse ; saint paul plainly professing that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will , he hardeneth . come we to reprobation as it signifies god's decree to inflict damnation without consideration of sinne , our adversaries would faine shape our opinions thus , and none more eager this way , then this authour , i meane him that is thought to be the suggester at first , and since the interpolator and promotor of all this ; but this is a most notorious untruth ; nay how can we maintaine this , who imbrace the definition of reprobation given by aquinas , where he saith , that repobation includes a will to permit sinne , and to inferre damnation for sinne , so doth m. perkins , and him have i justified against arminius in my vindiciae ; and not any one of our divines doth maintaine that god intends to damne any man but for sinne , and finall perseverance therein without repentance . and the former point concerning the first act of reprobation , being granted , which neither sir edwin sandes , nor any lutheran that i know , denies ; the doctrine concerning this latter act of reprobation will be found to containe noe difficultie at all , forasmuch as we utterly deny that god either doth inflict , or ever did decree to inflict damnation according to his mere pleasure ; but merely for finall continuance in sinne without repentance . now let every sober reader consider , whether there be any harshnesse in all this : but as m. moulin discourseth here , so did the massilienses of old concerning austin's doctrine , as which they would not have at all broached , as appeares in the epistle of prosper . — yet i commend this authour for his ingenuous confession , that the same may be said of the sublapsarian way . but to our prejudice he tells us that sir ed : sandes is of the same mind , and therefore considering the excellencie of the booke , written by him , whereunto we may adde the excellencie of the discourse written by this authour ; let us for the credit and transcendent sufficiencie of these two , renounce not calvin and beza only , ( poore snakes as they were ) but the whole synod of dort ; and all the outlandish divines assembled there , and manifesting their concurrance in opinion with those synodicall divines , yea and fulke and whitaker , and the universitie of cambridge as they were then affected , when they drave barret to a recantation ; yet sir edwin sandes in the place produced , betraies not his owne judgment , but makes relation of the bitternesse of lutherans in opposing calvinists : in like manner both jewes and gentiles did oppose christians even unto bloud , for preaching christ crucified , which was a scandall to the one , foolishnesse unto the other . and shall the truth of christianitie be any whit the worse thought of for this ? why then shall our doctrine of predestination and reprobation be suspected as untrue , because the lutheran partie , doe also bitterly oppose it ? especially considering , that we with austine no otherwise maintaine predestination then as it depends and is grounded upon this , that grace is not given according unto workes , as austine professeth to have been his opinion , de bono perseverantiae , cap. . and we are ready to renounce whatsoever contradicteth this : and the lutherans themselves professe concurrently with us , that grace is not given according unto workes . and by the way observe the lutheran spleen is exercised not only against the predestinary pestilence , ( as they call it ) but the sacramentarie pestilence also . that is , against their doctrine who oppose their ubiquitie and consubstantiation , yet in the very next page the same knight affirmes , that all the lutherans are not carried with the same sterne humour , but they only who are called lutherani rigidi , & that the greater part perhaps which are the molles lutherani , are quiet enough , neither accompt they otherwise of the calvinists , then as of erring brethren ; whom the rigids have ( as is said ) threatened to excomunicate as schismitiques and heretiques . — the grecians are said to oppose the doctrine of calvin in the point of predestination ; yet we know our english divines subscribed unto the same doctrine in the synod of dort ; together with all the forraigne divines there assembled , and the summe therof is but this , that god , both in the election of some , and preterition of others , had noe respect to the personall goodnesse of the one , and personall naughtinesse of the other . and that this was the very doctrine of austine , and of saint paul also in the opinion of austine , vossius acknowledeth , and austine professeth that this doctrine herein is shaped merely according to the rule so generally received in the church of god against pelagians , that grace is not given according unto merits , de bono perseve : cap. . — . concerning the jewes , this doctrine of ours , this judicious ( not sir edwin sandes ) thinks it probable that doth hinder their conversation : and indeed that learned knight doth professe , that they are opposite to the doctrine here recited by this authour , and in the same sentence he professeth them in like manner opposite to our doctrine , in maintaining that the divell and his angells shall be cast into everlasting fire ; for thus goes sir edwin's relation , as they thinke it a bad opinion which some men seeme to hold , that god in his everlasting and absolute power should affect the extreame miserie of any of his creatures as here it lyes , so contrarie wise , they think with origen , that hell in the ende shall utterly be abolished ; and that the divells themselves after a long course of bitter repentance , and punishment shall find mercy at his handes , that did create them : but as touching our difference from this in this particular ; this authour doth not expresse ought so much as probable , to hinder their conversion ; as touching the former he hath ; for that served his turne , this doth not , and his wit and wisedome being so nere of kinne , noe mervaile if he makes the one to performe service of love to the other but let me say something concerning the opinion it selfe here related , as in the first place ; that god doth not effect the extreame misery of his creatures in his absolute pleasure , what is the doctrine opposite hereunto but this , namely that god decrees to damne no man but for sinne , and not according to his absolute pleasure ? now what one of our divines was ever knowne to contradict this ; and to affirme that god intends to damne many of his creatures not for their sinnes , but of his owne absolute pleasure ? for my part i never read any that maintained this : but we generally say that god in electing some and passing by others , as touching the conferring of grace , proceeded and decreed , and that from everlasting to proceed , not according to mens workes , but according to his absolute pleasure ; now this was austin's judgment as well as ours ; and saint paul's too , in the opinion of austine , as vossius acknowledgeth in the place formerly cited . and saint paul speakes plainly , when he saith , god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth , and as plainely in saying , that , before the children were borne , or had done good or evill , that election might stand not of workes but of him that calleth , it is said that the elder shall serve the younger , as it is written iacob have i loved , and esau have i hated , rom : . , . and i durst appeale to every sober man 's consciencewhether one of these jewes in reading this would not as redily condemne saint paul himselfe , as they condemne us : as for the other part of the doctrine here proposed , namely that the damnation of some should redound more to god's glory , then the felicity of them all . i answere that it is as cleare as the light , that the glory of god in the way of vindicative justice had not at all appeared , if all had been saved , no nor the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy , whom he had prepared unto glory , if god had not suffered with long patience some vessells of wrath prepared to destruction , if we believe saint paul rom : , : rather then the jewes : and it is apparent that the lord god , who made allthings for himselfe , tooke this course , namely , to make even the wicked against the day of evill , and accordingly as to shew mercy on whom he will , so to harden whom he will , also rom : . : otherwise as i have often said , grace should be conferred according to merits , that is according unto workes , which is expresly contradictory both to the word of god. tim : . . tit. . . and to the decrees of synods and councells , all along against the pelagians . ● . i willingly grant that the determination of the end doth necessarily involve the meanes , that not only preceed but procure the end . but i will utterly deny that sinne is the meanes of dānation , we say rather that permission of sinne is the meanes , whence notwithstanding it followes , not that sin shall come to passe unavoidably , but rather avoidably ; whether we consider the free will of man or the decree of god ; for every particular sinfull act is a naturall thing , and undoubtetdly man hath free will as to doe , so to abstaine from doing any particular act : and albeit god hath determined that these particular sinfull acts ( instance the particular outrages committed against the holy sonne of god by herod , pontius pilate , together with the gentiles , and people of israel , acts . . ) shall come to passe by his permission ; yet seeing withall he hath ordained thē to come to passe contingently that followes that they shall come to passe in such a manner , as joyned with a possibility of not cōing to passe , otherwise they should come to passe , not contingently , but necessarily . but it is growne to be this authours naturall genius miserably to overreach ; while he keeps himselfe to his own formes inshaping the opinion of his adversaries , impatient to be beaten out of them and to have his veteres avias à pulmone repelli , oldgrandmothers vain conceits to be pulled out of lastly this authour shapeth us to make damnation an end intended by god , which we conceive to be a very shallow project ; we know nothing but gods owne glory that can be this end : and therefore even there where solomon professeth that god made the wicked against the day of evill : herewithall acknowledgeth that god made all thinges forhimselfe . at length we have gotten cleare aboard to come acquainted with this authours full discourse , and not by patches , as hitherto we have done . for here he promiseth to acquaint us with the reasons that have convinced him of the untruth of absolute reprobation as it is carried the upper way and like a martialist , a man at armes , he tells us they fight against it , and thus the interpolator discourseth . the first part of the first argument against the supralapsarians . sect : . they are drawen ab incommodo from the greater evils and inconveniences , which issue from it naturally : which may be referred to two maine heads . the dishonour of god. the overthrow of religion and government . it dishououreth god. for it chargeth him deeply with two things , ( no wayes agreeable to his nature . ) mens eternall torments in hell. their sinnes on earth . first it chargeth him with mens eternall torments in hell , and maketh him to be the prime , principall , nd invincible cause of the damnation of millions of miserable soules : the prime cause , because it reporteth him to have appointed them to distruction of his owne voluntary disposition , antecedent to all deserts in them ; and the principall and invincible cause , because it maketh the damnation of reprobates to be necessary and unavoydable thorough gods absolute and uncontroulable decree ; and soe necessary that they can no more escape it then poore astyanax could avoyd the breaking of his necke , when the graecians tumbled him downe from the tower of troy. now this is an neavy charge , contrary to scripture , gods nature , and sound reason . to scripture , which makes man the principall , nay the only cause ( in opposition to god ) of his owne ruine . thy destruction is of thy selfe ô israell , but in me is thine help . as i live saith the lord , i will not the death of the wicked &c. turne yee , turne yee , why will yee dye he doth not afflict willingly , nor greive the children of men . to which speech for likeneile sake i will joyne one of prospers . gods predestination is to many the cause of standing , to none of falling . it is contrary to gods nature , who sets forth himselfe to be a god mercifull , gracious , long suffering , abundant in goodnesse &c. and he is acknowledged to be soe by king david . thou lord art good and mercifull , and of great kindnesse to all them that call upon thee : and by the prophets joell , jonah , and michah . he is gracious and mercifull , slow to anger , and of great kindnesse . and who saith micah , is a god like unto thee , that taketh away iniquity &c. he retaineth not his wrath for ever because mercy pleaseth him . 't is contrary also to sound reason , which cannot but argue such a decree of extreame cruelty and consequently remove it from the father of mercyes . we cannot in reason thinke that any man in the world can so farre put off humanity and nature , as to resolve with himselfe to marry and beget children , that after they be borne and have lived a while with him , he may hang them up by the tongues , teare thir flesh with scourges , pull it from their bones , with burning pincers , or put them to any cruell tortures , that by thus torturing them he may shew what his authority and power is over them . much lesse can we believe without great violence to reason , that the god of mercy can so farre forget himselfe as out of his absolute pleasure to ordaine such infinite multitudes of his children , made after his owne image , to everlasting fire ; and create them one after another , that after the end of a short life here , he might torment them without end hereafter , to shew his power and soveraingty over them . if to destroy the righteous with the wicked , temporally , be such a peece of injustice , that abraham removeth it from god with an absit , wilt thou destroy the righteous with the wicked ? that be farre from thee o lord. shall not the judge of all the world doe right ? how deepely ( may we thinke ) would that good man have detested one single thought , that god resolveth upon the destruction of many innocent soules eternally in hell fire . here this authour carrieth himselfe like another ptolomeus ceraunus ; or as if he had some cheife place in the lightning legion , not by his prayers , but by his discourse , he seemes to thunder and to lighten all along . when the lord appeared to elias , he was neither in the mighty wind , nor in the earthquake , nor in the fire , but in the still and soft voyce . i hope to prove all this to be but ignis fatuus ; mountebancks use to make great ostentation and crackes , but commonly they end in meere impostures , and it is no hing strange , when men opposing the grace of god , loose their owne witts , and please themselves in the confusion of their owne senses . for when men are in love with their owne errours , they hate the light ; yea the very light of nature in the distinct notice of it , would be an offence unto them . can this authour be ignorant of that which every meane sophister knowes , that there be foure kinds of causes , materiall , formall , efficient , finall ; that he should expatiate thus in speaking of a cause without all distinction ? is it strange that god should be a prime cause , and principall in execution of vengeance ? doth he not professe saying vengeance is mine , and i will repay ? is he not called the god to whom vengeance belongeth ? and are not his magistrates his ministers to execute vengeance temporall here in this world ? and can any sober man dout whether god be invincible whom the apostle pronounceth to be irresistable ? againe an efficient cause admits farther distinction ; for it is either physicall or morall : physicall is that which really workes or executes any thing : as every tradesman hath his worke , which his hands doe make ; so god hath his worke , which he executes , and his worke is judgment as well as mercy . i am the lord which shew mercy and judgment and righteousnesse ; for in these things i delight , saith the lord ; and he would have us when we doe glory , glory in this , that we doe understand and know him to be such a god. a morall efficient is twofold , being only of a moveing nature , to move others to doe somewhat ; as namely either by perswading , or by meriting or deserving : he that perswades moves an other to doe some what ; he that meriteth , thereby moves another , either to reward him or punish him . now to walke in the light of this distinction , and not to please our selves by walking in darknesse ; though god be the prime , principall , and invincible cause of man's damnation in the kind of a cause efficient physicall ( which should not seeme strange to an ordinary christian , who knowes full well that vengeance is god's peculiar worke , as the iudge of all the world , and that he delights in the execution thereof ) yet this hinders not but that man may be the cause of his own damnation in the way of a meritorious cause , justly deserving it . omnis poena deum habet authorem , all punishment hath god for the authour of it : this is a principle acknowledged both by the arminians and vasquez the jesuite ; but never is punishment inflicted on any by the hands of god , save on those who formerly have deserved it . consider we farther , as touching the severall kinds of causes formerly mentioned ; if the question be which is the principall , aristotle answereth , that this is not confined to any one kind of them ; somtimes the materiall cause , somtimes the formall cause , somtimes the efficient , somtimes the finall cause is the demonstrative cause , the cause propter quam , the cause by vertue where of the effect hath its existence ; but this peculiar and speciall cause is described thus , it is that whereby satisfactory answer is made to the question demanding why such a thing is . now in execution of punishment or condigne vengeance , this satisfactory answer is made by representing the meritorious cause , never by representing the efficient cause : as for example , if it be demanded why such a malefactor is executed upon the gallowes ; no sober man will answer , because the sheriffe cōmanded it to be so , or because the judge would have it so ; but because he robd upon the high way , or committed some criminall fact or other , which is capitall by the lawes of our land , and to be punished with hanging upon the gallowes . in like sort if question be made why devills or wicked men are damned , is it our doctrine to referre the cause hereof to the mere pleasure of god ? doe not all confesse that god inflicts damnation upon thē merely for their sinnes and transgressions wherein they have continued unto death without repentance ? yet we acknowledge that god could have taken them off from their sinnes while they lived if he would , by giving them repentance , as he hath dealt with us , and that merely of his free grace . for we willingly confes that our sinnes are our owne , but our faith is not , our repentance is not . when i say our owne , i meane in respect that they are of our selves ; otherwise we acknowledge both faith and repentance to be our owne accipiendo , in asmuch as we receive them ; but they are god's gifts , and so they are his dando , in asmuch as he gives them as remigius speaketh . now what is become of this authours pompous discourse ? is it not the like the cracking of thornes in the fire , making a great noise ; but the light of distinction , like fire , sets an end unto it , and makes it appeare in its owne likenesse , and proves nothing but a squib . for albeit god in his decree makes the damnation of reprobates to be necessary and unavoidable ; yet seeing he makes it not to fall on any but for their sinnes , what colour of dishonour unto god , in ordaining that iudas shall necessarily and unavoidably be damned for betraying the sonne of god , and afterwards most desperatly murthering himselfe ? if hereupon he could no more avoid his damnation , then astionax could the breaking of his neck , when the grecians tumbled him downe from the tower of troy ; will any man that is not bereaved of common sense make strange of this ? it is true god did appoint both iudas and all other wicked persons , that never break off their sinnes by repentance , unto destructiō , of his own voluntary disposition . for god workes all things according to the counsaile of his will , and if it pleased him he could annihilate them upon the fresh foot of any sin ; or after they have suffered the vengeance of hell fire , as many yeares in hell as they lived here in sinne ; yea and the devills in hell ; as origen was of opinion ; and the jewes at this day are of the same by sir edwin sandes his relation ; whether this author be of the same or not , i know not . and lastly we willingly confesse that the decree of god was antecedent to the deserts of men ; for reprobation is as antient as election ; and election was made before the foundation of the world , if we believe saint paul rather then any other , who either by word or deed doth manifest himselfe to be of a contrary opinion . still damnation is inflicted by god only for sinne , and in degree answerable unto their sinnes ; and only because of their sinnes as a meritorious cause thereof ; though god makes use of it to his owne ends and the manifestation of his owne glory as solomon professeth namely , that god made all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill . and saint paul tells , that as the lord suffereth with long patience the vessells of wrath prepared to destruction that he might shew his wrath and make his power known . so likewise another reason hereof he specifies to be this . that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessells of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory . for when we shall behold the unspeakable misery brought upon others by reason of their sinnes ; how rich will god's glory appeare unto us , when we consider that had it not been for his free grace delivering us from sinne , we had been swallowed up of the same sorrowes . and thus alvarez writeth , disput . iii. the glory of god's mercy in his elect , and in like manner the manifestation of divine justice on reprobates ; is truely and properly the finall cause why god did permit sinnes both in reprobates and angells . and he proves it out of this passage of saint paul. so aquin : p. pag. . art . . this is the reason saith he why god hath chosen some and reprobated others , that representation might be made of gods goodnesse towards the elect in the way of mercy pardoning them , and on the reprobates in the way of justice punishing them . and alphonsus mendoza a scotist concurres with them in this ; and we see they make saint pauls doctrine their foundation . and indeed albeit at the day of judgment there will be found a vast difference between the elect and reprobates , the one having departed this life in the state of faith repentance , the other in infidelitie and impenitency , in such sort as god will bestow on his elect eternall life by way of reward , and inflict eternall death on the other by way of punishment ; yet in conferring the grace of regeneration , of faith and repentance upon the one , and denying the same graces unto the other , the lord carrieth himselfe not according to mens workes , but merely according to the pleasure of his owne will , shewing mercy on whom he will and hardning whom he will ; in which respect he is said to make men in what condition he will ; as rom : . . shall the thing formed say to it that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? though indeed he makes but one sort of them after a new fashion , leaving the other in the state of naturall corruption wherein he findeth them : and likewise is compared by the same apostle to a potter , who out of the same lump makes one vessell unto honour , and an other unto dishonour . but to returne , i have , i trust , sufficiently shewed that in all this which he hath delivered , when things are rightly understood , and duely considered , ther 's nothing found alien from the holy nature of god , no more then it is repugnant to his holy nature to decree and execute vengeance , condigne vengeance , even the vengeance of damnation on men for their sinnes ; in such sort that it shall unavoidably overtake all those that breake not off their sinnes by repentance before their death . nothing more agreeable to scripture , nor to the nature of god revealed unto us in holy scripture then this , and consequently nothing more agreeable to christian reason . but as for naturall reason ; god forbid we should make that the rule of our faith , as concerning the resurrection of the dead and the powers of the world to come , the rewards of heaven , and the torments of hell , where the worme never dieth , and the fire never goeth out . and may it not seeme very strange , that a christian and a divine , and one magnified by the arminian party for great abilities should undertake to prove this doctrine to be contrary to scripture , to the nature of god and to sound reason . well let us proceed to observe how well he performes what he undertakes . and here he saith . . that the scripture makes man the principall , nay the only cause ( in opposition to god ) of his owne ruine . we answer , the scripture makes man the only cause of his owne ruine in the meritorious cause ; thus man's destruction is of himselfe ; but this nothing hinders god from being the cause why vengeance , destruction and damnation are executed upon man ; for he is the god to whom vengeance belongeth , & he delights as well in shewing judgment , as in shewing mercy . indeed did we maintaine that god damnes the reprobate whether man or angells of his mere pleasure , this argument of his were seasonable . we know full well that god of his free grace shewes mercy ; but judgment only upon provocation , and herein he proceeds slowly too ; for he is slow to wrath , and easie to be intreated . yet god's afflicting is not alwaies for sinne ; neither doth it alwaies proceed in the way of punishment : when we suffer for christ we have cause to rejoyce that he counts us worthy to suffer for his name ; neither were the afflictions of iob brought upon him for his sinnes , but for the tryall of his faith , and to make him an example of patience to all succeeding generations ; and as for that of ezech : i will not the death of the wicked ; it is the usuall course of men of this authours spirit thus to render the wordes , whereas our last english translation renders them thus , i have noe pleasure in the death of the wicked . now as a man may will that wherein he takes noe pleasure ; as a sick-man takes a bitter potion sometimes for the recovery of his health ; so god may will that wherein he takes noe delight . and whether it be meant of first or second death it cannot be denied but god wills it ; for he workes all things according to the councell of his owne will. then againe if we consider the infliction of death as an execution of judgment , god not only willeth this , but delights therein also , as it is expressed . that of prosper is nothing to the present purpose , we treating here of the cause of damnation , not of sinning ; we say god is the god to whom vengeance belongeth , not to whom sinne belongeth . besides sinne , as sinne , hath noe efficient cause at all , but defficient , as austine hath delivered many hundered yeares agoe . it is true , it is in gods power to preserve any man from any sinne ; it is in his power to take any man off from any sinfull course by repentance , if he will ; but he is bound to none , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth ; and in all this he is not culpable . in the next place he tels us ; it is contrary to god's nature but what ? to damne men for their sinnes neverbroken offby repentance ? for all our divines maintaine that god is authour of damnation to none but such ; and to such god is not mercyfull nor gratious , nor suffers them any longer , nor shewes any goodnesse towards them ; while they lived he did ; yea much long suffering and patience , inviting them thereby to repentance ; yea and by his ; word also inviting many ; but after they dye in sinne , therewithall an end is sett to the dispensation of gods gracious proceedings with them . much lesse doe we deny him to be good and mercifull and of great kindnesse to all that call upon him . for gods mercy doth not exercise it selfe by necessity of nature , but by freedome of will ; yet he heareth the cry of ravens and not a sparrow falleth to the ground without the providence of our heavenly father , and the very lyons roaring after thir prey , doe seeke their meat at the hands of god : these mercyes are temporall ; but as for spirituall mercyes , for the working and cherishing of sanctification these are not extended unto all , but to some only , even to whom he will. and accordingly the elect of god are called vessels of mercy . yet to the execution of damnation on any he proceeds not till after death , and stayes no longer ; so slow to wrath he is towards the worst , and no more slow to the best of them . who is a god like unto thee , saith micah , that taketh away iniquity ? here this authour out of wisdome maketh a stoppe , leaving out that which followeth and passing by the transgressions of the remnant of his heretage : that restriction belike he did not so well brooke ; but having leapt over that ; he is content to take in that which followeth , he retaineth not his wrath for ever , because mercy pleaseth him : to witt , towards the remnant of his heritage , of his people . but i hope nought of this can hinder god from being the authour of damnation to all that dye in sinne without repentance without any prejudice to his holinesse , though he retaineth wrath for ever against them . we come to his reason which he calls soūd , saying that it cannot but argue such a decree of extreame cruelty . but what decree ? of that wherby he hath decreed to damne all that continue in sinne without repentance ? for to none other hath god decreed dānation in the opinion of any of our divines . but that which he cōmends as sound let us examine . we cannot in reason think , sayth he , that any man in the world can so far put off humanity and nature as to resolve with himselfe to marry & beget children , that after they are borne and have lived a while with him , he may hang them up by the tongues , teare their flesh with scourges , pull it from their bones with burning pincers , or put them to any cruell tortures , that by thus torturing them , he may shew what his autority and power is over thē . much lesse can we beleive that god should ordaine infinite multitudes of his children to everlasting fire . is it credible that this authour himselfe doth not believe that very doctrine which here he impugneth doth he not believe that god hath ordained infinite multitudes of those whō he calls gods childrē to everlasting fire ? doth he not i say believe this as well as we ? doth he not believe that whosoever dyeth in sinne without repentance shall be damned ? doth he not believe that god of his mere pleasure hath made such a decree ? it is increedible he should not be of the same faith in this . are not all gods ordinances made of his mere pleasure ? could he not both ordaine and execute the annihilation of sinners if it pleased him ? and that either immediatly upon the committing of sinne , or after some certaine yeares enduring the punishment of hell fire . and as for hell fire it selfe , could not he qualifie or increase the tormenting nature thereof as he should thinke good ? all this i nothing doubt but he believes , unlesse with origen and the jewes , he be of opinion that the fire provided for the devill and his angells is not everlasting : what madnesse then , what phrensy possesseth him so to dispute against us , as to dispute against himsefe ? vndoubtedly this authour would have his reader so propitious unto him , as to understand and interpret him beyond that which his owne words doe import ; as namely thus , that god hath not only of his absolute pleasure made such an ordinance , that all who dye in sinne without repentance shall be damned ; but rather thus ; that god hath ordained that infinite multitudes of his children shall be damned , not for their owne sinnes , but only out of his absolute pleasure . for this is generally the unshamefast carriage of men of this authours spirit . now what one divine of ours can he shew to have maintain'd this ? yet this is the imputation he chargeth upon us , that by our doctrine god resolveth upon the destruction of many innocent soule , eternally in hell fire . yet this is a very amphibologious expression . for when were they innocent in his meaning ? when they were damned ? if this be in his meaning , can he name any divine of ours that affirmes this ? or doth he meane they were innocent when god entertaind this resolution ? and doth not he as well as we maintaine that there was a time , when angels were innocent though afterwards they became devils ; yet both then and from all eternity god had entertained such a resolution ; for his decrees were everlasting as we say ; neither hath he hitherto manifested his opinion to the contrary ; whether he maintaineth such an opinion secretly in his brest , i know not ; if he doth , and shames to declare it let him pull himselfe by the nose ; in the passages he produceth out of cicero concerning epicurus , and out of virus concerning such like pag : . yet we doe not say they were innocent when god made his decree of reprobation . i should shew my selfe an ignoramus to say so , we say they were neither innocent nor nocent then , forasmuch as till the creation no creature had any beeing but god's decree of election ( and consequently of reprobation also ) had its beeing before the foundation of the world . this manner of reasoning which this authour calleth sound , i have found long a goe in castalio , as superficiary a divine as ever put pen to paper . and by the way observe , all the devills and damned men he calls gods children : this is the language of their court. now what one divine of ours maintaines that any of gods children are destinated to eternall fires ? s. paul tells us we are all the sons of god by faith in christ iesus : and because we are sons , god hath sent the spirit of his sonne into our hearts crying abba father ; and that as many as are led by the spirit of god. and if we are children we are also heires , even the heires of god. and heires annext with christ . and this distinction to witt the children of god , and children of the devill , hath beene ever since the fall of man , as s. iohn signifieth where he sayth . in this are the children of god knowne , and the children of the devill , whosoever doth not righteousnesse is not of god , neither he that loveth not his brother . and anon after he giveth instance in cain and abell . yea & our saviour gives us to understand the same , where he saith to the jewes , ye are of your father , the devill , and the lusts of the father ye will doe . and whereas we read that in the dayes of enosh men began to call upon the name of the lord ; forthwith we read c. . . ( for the . chap. comeing in betweene containes only the genealogy of the world from adam ) of the distinction between the sonnes of god and daughters of men , thus , the sonnes of god saw the daughters of men that they were fair , and they tooke , them wives of that they liked . it it is true , adam is called the sonne of god in reference to creation ; and noe marvaile ; for he was created in the state of grace : so likwise the angells for the same reason . when the starres of the morning praysed them , and all the children of god rejoyced . it is true we thus read , have we not all one father ? hath not one god made us ? piscator interprets these two interrogatories into one : as if god in the first place were represented as a common father unto all ; but our geneva divines doe not , but the name of father in this place they referre to abraham . and in not referring it unto god they have the consent of the jewish rabbines aben ezra and david kimhi ; who yet more hansomly doe referre it to their common father iacob , then to abraham , the covenant of god including all the sonnes of jacob ; not so all the sonnes of abraham , no nor the sonnes of isaak but iacob only . . consider is it decent to conforme the courses of god with the courses of men ? may not we consider in like manner against the lord's foreknowledge , as well as against his decree , & reason thus : what man of common humanity would resolve with himselfe to marry and beget children , did he foresee their wicked courses , and what will become of them for it , namely , to be condemned to everlasting fire with the divell and his angells ? what shall we therefore conclude that god did not foresee the wicked waies and ungodly courses of all reprobates , that they would continue in them and die in their sinnes without all faith in christ and true repentance towards god ? and if he did foresee what would be the ends of them in case he did create them and bring them forth into the world , yet seeing he would neverthelesse create them and bring them forth into the world , one after another in their severall times and ages , shall we brand the holy name of god , and reproach him for unnaturallnesse , and barbarous crueltie ? rather i will say what meanes this auhour so unconscionably to corrupt the state of the question , by mentioning only the shortnesse of their life , and utterly concealing the wickednesse of their life , the only meritorious cause of their torments which they suffer , and accordingly to shape the ends intended by god , to be only the demonstration of his power and soveraingtie over them , without all mention of his justice ; whereas we say that in the inflicting of damnation , the cheife glory which , god manifests is only the glory of his justice proceeding herein according to a law which himselfe hath made ( as most fit it is the creatour should give lawes to his creature ) and the law is this , whosoever believeth and repenteth shall be saved , whosoever dyeth in sinne without repentance shall be damned . not one of our divines ( that i know ) maintaines , that inflicting damnation , the lord proceedes merely according to the good pleasure of his will , in the communicating of faith and repentance , we willingly confesse the lord proceedes merely according to the good pleasure of his will ; and it is expresse pelagianisme to affirme that grace is given according unto workes . and herein this authour is very well content to walke in the darke and conceale his most corrupt opinion most opposite to the grace of god. but that damnation should be inflicted without respect to sinne as the meritorious cause thereof what one of our divines can he produce that affirmeth ? yet thus he is pleased to disguise our opinion ( when he findes the poverty of his strength to wage faire warre ) and so expose it to the hatred of me ; as if god ordained to damne men not for their sinnes , but of his owne mere pleasure . thus of old the enemies of the gospell dealt with christians : for first they would cloath them with beare skinnes , and then set doggs upon them . all that he hath to say to excuse his shamelesse crimination ( though so much he doth not expresse here ) is only this , that our divines maintaine the decree of damnation to preceed the foresight of sinne . yet this is untrue of the most part of them , who premit both the foresight of sinne originall before reprobation from grace , and of sinne actuall before the decree of damnation ; i willingly confesse for my part , that i concurre with neither ; and if i should , i should withall make the decree of permitting of sinne to preceed the decree of damnation , for which i see no reason ; but yet i doe not make the decree of permitting sinne to follow the decree of damnation . i hold these decrees to besimultaneous , thus , that god at once decrees both to create men , and suffer them all to fall in adam , and to bring them forth in their severall generations into the world , and to bestowe the grace of faith and repentance upon the one , and so to save them , and to deny the same grace unto others , finally permitting them in their sinfull courses , and so to damne them for sinne ; and all to manifest the glory of his mercy to the one , and the glory of his justice on the other , yea and his soveraingty too , but wherein ? not in rewarding the one with salvation and inflicting damnation on the other ; but only in giving grace to the one , and not to the other . and all the difference between our divines is merely in apice logico , a point of logick to wit , as touching the right ordering of decrees , concerning ends , and meanes tending to the ends ; all concurring in this , that , god hath mercy on whom he will , in bestowing faith and repentance upon them , and whom he will he hardeneth , in denying the same graces unto others . now when this authour shall fairly prove that according to our opinion , god destroyeth the righteous with the wicked ; then and not till then , shall he prove that our faith differeth from the faith of abraham . what divine of ours was ever knowne to affirme that god damneth any one that dyeth in repentance ? yet it cannot be denied but that temporall judgments befall the righteous , as well as the wicked . when the lord swept away thousand with a three dayes pestilence in the land of israel ; was it not possible thinks this authour , that any of god's deare children should perish by that pestilence ? to be caried away into captivity by an heathenish nation , i should thinke is a greater calamity then to dye of the pestilence ; yet those who were carried away into babylon with king iechoniah , the lord represents by the basket of good figgs ; and those the lord professeth that he had sent them away into babylon for their good . were all damned will this authour say , that perished in the flood ? saint peter seemes to be of an other opinion , where he saith , to this purpose was the gospell preached , also to the end that they might be condemned also to men in the flesh , but might live according to god in the spirit . truly i doe not say so much of them that perished in the conspiracy of corah , when the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the conspirators , nor them only but their wives and children also , especially considering that inter pontem & fontem , mercy may be sought and mercy may be found . sect. . containing the first objection with the answer thereunto devised , and my reply thereupon and an answer thereunto . but god say some is soveraigne lord of all creatures , they are truly and properly his owne . cannot he therefore dispose of them as he pleaseth and doe with his own what he will ? the question is not what an almighty soveraigne power can doe to poore vassalls , but what a power that is just and good may doe . by the power of a lord his absolute and naked power he can cast away the whole masse of mankind ; for it is not repugnant to omnipotencie or soveraingty , but by the power of a judge , to wit , that actuall power of his , which is alwaies cloathed with goodnesse and justice , he cannot . for it is not compatible with these properties in god to appoint men to hell of his mere will and pleasure ; no fault at all of theirs preexisting in his eternall mind . it is not compatible with justice which is a constant will of rendring to every one his due ; and that is vengeance to whom vengeance belongeth , namely to the obstinate and impenitent . god is good , saith saint austine , and god is just , he may without any desert free men from punishment , because he is good ; but he cannot without evill deserving condemne any man , because he is just . in an other place also he saith , if god be beleived to condemne any man that by sinne deserves it not , he is not to be believed to be free from injustice . . nor is it compatible with goodnesse which is an inclination in god of communicating that good which is in himselfe unto his creatures , as farre as he can without wronging his justice . and therefore if god be ( as the scripture reporteth him ) good to all ; it cannot be that he should of himselfe without any motive in the reasonable creature , provide for it from everlasting the greatest of all miseries , and that before he thought of making it or bestowing any good upon it . as touching the objection i hope this authour will say so too . as touching the first , namely , that he is the soveraigne lord of all creatures ; and our saviour christ will say it for him , if he will not ; as touching the last , namely , that it is lawfull for him to doe what he will with his owne . but i find noe need at all of this consideration , to make answer to his former vaine discourse : for he may see plainly that i have made noe use of these principles : but they have their place to justifie god in other courses ; namely , . in punishing children for the sinne of their fathers in great variety of judgments temporall ; as in the conflagration of sodome , and in drowning of the old world . . in damning many infant children of heathen men dying in originall sinne unremitted ; as m. mason in his lectures at magdalen hall maintained , that , the punishment of originall sinne unremitted was eternall damnation . and m. hord confesseth as much in his preface , sect : . . yea and in making the soule of christ the holy sonne of god an offering for the sinnes of others . but consider we his answer . to appoint to hell , what is it but to appoint to the sufferings of the torments of hell ? now doth any of our divines maintaine that god appoints any man to the suffering of hell torments of his mere pleasure , and not for sinne ? they doe not , and therefore this authours discourse depends upon a mere fiction devised in his own brain . . the distinction which here he makes is the distinction of arminius , who maintained that god can doe that per potentiam , by power , which he cannot doe per justitiam , by justice , which i have disproved at large in a peculiar digression on this argument in my vindiciae ; and not one of my reasons there brought doth this authour once offer to answer . and this opinion of his doth manifestly imply that god hath a power to doe that which is unjust . . he supposeth very judiciously to his own advantage , that there is a justice in god towards his creature secluding the ordinance of his will ; whereas both suarez and vasquez opposite in other particulars concerning god's justice , doe yet agree in this , that there is no justice in god towards his creature , but upon supposition of his will and ordinance as i have shewed . . he may as well say that it is not compatible with the justice of god to punish ( as it signifies to inflict paineon ) him who is holy . for justice is as well opposite to the punishing of an inocent , as to the punishing of him in such a degree . and consequently god cannot in justice put an holy man to death , much lesse annihilate him ; which if he saith , he shall contradict arminius . . if it be not compatible with god's justice to inflict hell paines on any man , no fault of his preexisting in the eternall mind , then either christ suffered not the paines of hell , or was not without fault ; or lastly god was unjust in inflicting those paines upon him . . in the last place observe , for all this he gives us nothing but his bare word . so that if we give him leave he is like enough to dictate unto us articles of beleife at his pleasure . by what right is vengeance due to the obstinate and impenitent ? is it due by any other right then by the ordinance of god ? cannot god pardon it if it please him , yea and cure it too ? and if he be pleased to punish it , cannot he punish it as well by annihilation of the obstinate ( so to set an end unto his sin as to himselfe ) as by condemnation of him ? that of austine is spoken in reference to god's law , whereby he hath ordained that without evill deservings he shall not be condēned ( yet christ suffered hell paines without any evill deservings ) in respect of the like law , he shall be unjust , if he he should not reward them , who dye in faith and repentance , with everlasting life . this is only in respect of potentia ordinata , such a power as is ordained by his will. but as for potentia ahsoluta , power absolute , all confesse that god can annihilate the holy angels . how doth god communicate grace unto his creatures ? is it not by necessity of nature , or freedome of will ? philosophers were wont to argue the eternity of the world by this , that bonum est sui communicativum , that which is good is apt to communicate it selfe , yea naturally and necessarily : and therefore god being optimus the best , as well as maximus the greatest , was most communicative , and that naturally and necessarily . if the same be this authours opinion , he is as atheisticall as they : but if by freedome of will he communicates his goodnesse , then he communicates his goodnesse , as when he will , so likewise how he will , and to whom he will. as saint paul expreslely professeth saying , god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth , of such places as these this authour takes no notice , but so much the more atheologically . yet i am willing to take notice of what he brings , namely , that god is good to all ; and so he is in doeing them good , many and sundry waies ; in maintaining their being , but he is not in such sort good to all as he is said to be good to israel . for he hath not dealt so with any nation , as with them . . 't is untrue that god communicates unto his creatures that good which is in himselfe : for the good which is in himselfe is of a more transcendent nature , then to be communicable unto creatures ; such conceits are manichaicall . god is essentally whatsoever he is : but the goodnesse this authour speakes of , is of an accidentall nature unto us ; and is it decent and not rather abominable to transforme the essence of god into an accident , that so it might be communicated to the creature . . if gods goodnesse incline him to communicate goodnesse unto the creature , as farre as he can without wronging justice , then it inclines him to communicate holinesse unto all to preserve all from sinne , to bring all to faith and to repentance , and so to save all . for how could his justice be wronged in this ? . when he saith , tha god of himselfe cannot without any motive in the reasonable creature provide for it from everlasting the greatest of all miseries ; observe what an hungry proposition this is ; for will he say tht god can provide for any creature the greatest misery save one , though not the greatest of all without any motive in the creature ? but if he can so provide the greatest save one , why not the greatest of all ? what colour of reason to put any difference in this ! and if the greatest save two , why not the greatest save one ? and so we may goe on till we come to the least misery , thereby to convince the unreasonablenesse of this assertion . for in cleare evidence of truth , reason cannot discover where to make a stand . . and what is the motive he meanes , but the motive of sinne ? and what sinne did god the father see in christ the sonne , that moved him to ordaine his deare sonne to the suffering of hell paines ? . and as he alledgeth austine to little purpose , so to the contrary what he writes de predestinatione & gratia is well known . si humanum genus quod creatum primitùs constat ex nihilo ; sine debito mortis nasceretur , & tamen ex iis creator omnipotens in aeternum nonnullos damnare vellet interitum , quis omnipotenti creatori diceret , quare fecisti sic . if mankind which is well known , at first to be made of nothing , were born without the debt of death and sinne ; yet if the almighty creatour , would damne some of them to eternall destruction , who would say to the almighty creatour , why hast thou done so ? and observe his reason , qui enim cum non essent , esse donaverat , quo fine essent habuit potestatem for he that gave them being when formerly they had no being had power to dispose to what end they should be . there is nothing more evident by the light of nature then this . i willingly confesse that that this book though it goe under austin's name , yet it is thought to be none of austin's , and that amongst other considerations , by reason of this very sentence in particular , which seemes unto me very harsh , and contrary to austin's doctrine in other places . but raynaudus hath discovered at large the vanity of this reason , and shewes by variety of testimonies the concurrence of antiquitie in bearing witnesse to the same truth . and albeit he confesseth the book not to be austin's , yet he proves that fulgentius was the authour of it , alwaies accounted to be an orthodox father and well known to be a follower of austin's . sect : . containing a reply to the second objection , and answere thereunto . it is further objected , that we doe and may slaughter our beasts for our dayly use , without any cruelty and iniquity , and therefore god may as well and much more appoynt as many of us as he pleaseth to the torment of hell , for his glory , and yet be just and good to notwithstanding . for there is a greater disproportion between god and us , then there is between us and beasts . for answering hereunto we are first to premise thus much , namely that our slaughtering of beasts for our dayly use is by gods ordinance , and appoyntment . we had not the authority of our selves , but god of his bounty towards us , gave it us , as we may see gen : . , . where we may observe , that god delivereth up all creatures , beasts , birds , and fishes into the hands of men . that the end why he doth so , is that they might be meat for men , and consequently they might be slaine . which being so , our slaughtering of oxen , sheep and other creatures for our dayly use is to be accounted gods doing , rather then ours . and therefore the objection should be made this . god may without any breach of goodnesse or justice appoint bruite creatures to be slaine for mans use , therefore he may ordaine men to be cast into hell torments for his owne use , that is for the declaration of his soveraingty . this being premised i answer further that this comparison holds not , for there is little proportion between the objects compared , and lesse between the acts . there is but small proportion between the objects beasts and men creatures of a different nature and made for a different end beasts are voyd of reason and liberty in their actions ; creatures whose being svanish with their breath , made only for the use and service of men upon earth but men are reasonable and understanding creatures , able through the creators bounty to discerne between good and evill , they are the very image of gods purity and eternity and were made for the service of god alone upon earth , and his blessed and everlasting society in heaven so that albeit there be a very great distance between god and man , yet nothing so great as between god and beasts it followeth not therefore that if god may appoynt beasts to be killed of his owne free pleasure for mans use . he may with like equity and reason appoynt men of his owne will to destruction , for his owne use we read that god required of his people many thousand beasts for sacrifice , but not one man the first borne of other creatures he chalenged for burnt offerings ( except they were uncleane beasts ) but the first borne of men were to be redeemed . which sheweth that he put a wide difference between the blood of men and beast . besides in the of genesis he gives men power to kill and feed uppon all living creatures ; but he straightly forbids them to shed mans blood , and gives this reason of the prohibition , man is the image of god ; so that we may well conclude , that there is but small proportion betweene the ob●ects compared-men , and beasts in respect of this act of killing and slaughrering . there is farr lesse or rather no proportion at all between the acts compared killing and eternall tormenting . a man may kill , but he cannot without barbarous , injustice and cruelty torment his beast , and prolong the life of it , that he may dayly vexe and torture it , to shew what power and soverainty he hath over it : so i doubt not ( though there be some that will not grant it , but charge the arminians with contumely against god for affirming it ) i doubt not , i say , but god may kill a man of his owne free pleasure ; yea and resolve him into nothing without any cruelty and injustice ; because in so doing he doth but take away what he hath given him . but he cannot without both these antecedently decree to keepe him alive for ever in hell , that he may there torment him without end , to shew his soveraingty . for this is to inflict an infinite evill upon a guiltlesse creature , to whom he had given but a finite good : and so is the comparison most unequall too , in the acts compared , and therefore proveth just nothing . belike as many as have not the word of god , to read this authours acute observations out of gen : . . . ( for he would not seeme to be any of the blunter sort ) doe sin as often as they kill a chicke to feed upon , though beasts of prey doe as much as this comes to , and more without all sin . yet m perkins thought it enough to take notice that commonly it is received as lawfull , without enquiring whence this authority proceeds and noe christian doubts , but our very bodyes , and soules and all , we have from our maker . are all beasts for meat ? or hath not man power to slaughter any but for meat ? where doth the authour find this in gen : may we not kill lyons , beares , wolves , unlesse we eat them forthwith , or pouder them up , that by degrees we may make meat of them ? so of snakes , and adders and all the serpents that lybia brings forth ? i deny that our slaughtering of oxen is in this respect , or in any respect to be accounted gods doing rather then ours . for gods appoyntment in this , is but of the nature of a permission , not of a command . we may live by fruits and hearbs and marmalads and sucketts , or butter , milke and cheese , if we think good . were it a commandement , yet would it not follow that it is gods worke rather then ours . for he cōmands good workes and forbids evill workes . now will this author herehence conclude , that our good workes are rather gods workes then ours . i trow he will not therefore wee keepe to our owne argument , and not regard his infatuation of it , and we were in a pretty case , if we should suffer our adversaries to shape our arguments if they once have the grinding of our tooles , no marvaile if they soone grind out all the edge of them . we say it is lawfull for man to doe all this that is spoken of , upon our fellow creatures , and shall not god have as much power over us ? doth not the apostle himselfe dispute after this manner , and make the power which god hath over us , equall to the power which the potter hath over the worke of his own hands and over the clay also . shall the thing formed say to it that formed it why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessell unto honour and another unto dishonour ? we cannot take life from a creature without pain , deadly pain : if we have lawfull power to inflict pain upon another creature , hath not god greater power to inflict pain , yea the greatest pain upon us , and that without all respect to sinne ? and that this god can doe as lord of life and death , both vasquez the jesuite acknowledgeth , and medina pronounceth ex concordi theologorum sententiâ , by the unanimous consent of all divines , as elsewhere i have shewed and proved by variety of demonstration ; like as raynaudus confirmes it by the concurrant testimony of the antients in the places formerly mentioned . . in the next place he comes to his answer , and saith that the comparison holdes not . and i commend this authours wisdome in troubling himselfe with no more objections , then he thought himselfe able to master . for who would not keep his shinns whole the best he can ? but i wounder he comes off no better , even then , when he makes choice of such adversaries , as he thinks he can well grapple with . . little proportion will serve turne ; it is enough for us that they are all god's creatures ; and surely there is lesse proportion between the creatour and the creature , then between one creature and another . yet sure i am , every creature that hath life is more noble then a creature without life , such as a potters vessell is ; yet look what power the potter hath over his vessell ; the apostle tells us that god hath the same power over his creature man. secondly , the authour was sensible of the weaknes of this bowstring , and seeing it would not hold , therefore he relyes upon another , and that 's his owne deforming and disfiguring our argument , drawing it from the comparison of man's power over his fellow creatures , with god's power over us ; to conclude therehence that god the creatour hath as great power over his creature ; as man by god's graunt hath power over his fellow creatures . from this due course of comparison which we propose , this authour drawes us to a wild comparison of the power of god over beasts , with the power of god over man ; which is not ours , but an immodest and unshamefast fiction of this authour ; and that grounded upon immodest foundations as before hath been shewed . thirdly , yet why not so great a difference between god and man , as between god and beasts ? is not the distance infinite ? is it possible to be lesse , seeing man is but finite , and god infiinte ? for still the perfection of man is but in the way of perfection create . but god's perfection is of a transcendant nature it being uncreat : which when school-men have considered , they have affirmed that the perfection of creatures is to be measured not by approximation to god who is , ens primum , the first being , but by their remotion rather à non esse , from not being ; as i remember to have read long agoe in paulus venetus , and which then seemed to me most congruous , nither to this day doe i see any just cause to oppose it . . i come to the second answer ; and here i find this discourse to breath the spirit of arminius , as truly as if it were spit out of his own mouth . now arminius on this point i have answered at larg , as this authour well knowes : he is content to passe that by , and keep himselfe still like a sow in beanes , without raising any noise of solving ought hath been delivered in proofe hereof . but though he lets passe that wich i have delivered without answer , renewing only arminius his objection ; yet i will not let this his answer to his own objection passe without a reply . . therefore whereas he saith there is no proportion between killing and eternall tormenting . imarke his cunning carriage , he doth not say there is no proportion between killing and tormenting wich are two acts ; and acts are somewhat capable of proportion . and surely if he had , killing would appeare to be the worst of the two ; since to kill is to torment and somewhat more , even to destroy the being of a man. therefore the comparison which he shapes is between killing and eternall tormenting ; that is not between two acts , as he pretends to from the comparison , but between one act , and the eternall duration of an other act , which is the quantity thereof in reference to time , such is this authours jugling . yet notwithstanding the disproportion of these things , hence it followes not , that killing is the more desirable of the two ; considering that many apain there is which man would be content to endure , rather then to loose his life ? so farre is it from being worse , and that beyond all proportion . austine somewhere professing of infants pain in hell , that is poena mitissima , the mildest pain , & such as they had rather endure then to have no being at all . . but take it for an intollerable tormenting ; if there be no proportion between killing and eternall tormenting ; whereas there is some proportion between man and beast , then it were reasonable for any man to desire to be turned into a beast rather then to be eternally tormented : now let every reasonable creature consider , the sobriety of such a choice . . if only the eternity of it makes killing to be preferred before tormenting , then it is not to be denyed , but tormenting a creature in hell fire a thousand or ten thousand yeares may be performed by god upon an innocent man , only eternall torment cannot . yea and so ten thousand to an hundred thousand yeares , and so forwards untill it comes to be eternall , which indeed can never be ; it being a thing utterly impossible to attaine from a beginning unto eternity by degrees . a finite added to a finite being never able to make it infinite . and therefore to maintain a thing infinite in quantitie , aristole hath taught us that it is to maintain a multitude of infinites ( and indeed an infinite of infinites . ) for if the parts be but finite , it is impossible that the whole consisting of finite parts can be infinite . . though man cannot without barbarous cruelty torment his beast , and prolong the life of it ; yet i hope this authour will not deny this to be in the power of god , and that for the least sinne committed by man. and this was it that i proposed in my answer to m. hord , to shew the power of god in such a kind , wherein it were abominable crueltie in man to exercise his power : like as the barbarous cruelty of tiberius is set forth by them that write the history of his life . and the truth is , it is a very difficult point to resolve how it can stand with justice divine thus to deale with a creature , though a sinner . yet i know many courses are taken to solve this difficultie , and the best that i have met with is this in my judgment ; that a man dying in sinne , his sinne continueth eternall ( never broke off by repentance ) as well as the pain , yet this upon examination is found to have its flawes , and will not satisfie . so that the best and finall resolution is to have recourse to god's absolute power , as a creatour over his creatures . and that absolute power will make it good even over an innocent creature as over a creature nocent . and it were very strange to affirme that god hath not as much power over us as we have over our beasts , namely to put them to pain , to doe us service . now if it be lawfull to inflict but one degree of pain upon an innocent creature , what reason can be given why he cannot inflict two degrees , and if so why not three , and so ascending to the highest degree ? then as touching the duration of it , if he can inflict such a pain for an houre , he may as well for two houres ; and for a whole day : and if for a day he may as well for two daies , yea for a week ▪ for a week he may as well for a moneth , and if for a moneth , he may as well for two or three ; if for three , as well for six ; and if for six , as well for twelve ; and if for a yeare , as well for two ; and as well for foure , and so in infinitum ; from tenns to hundreds , and from hundreds to thousands for no reason can possibly make evidence where we ought to make a stand ; in such sort as that an afliction in such a degree is lawfull , and immediatly after increasing becomes unlawfull . . yet consider we speak not now of decreeing , but of executing ( whereas the objection proceeded concerning god's decreeing ) now between the decree and the execution , sinne may intercede by god's permission , and that necessarily thereupon as arminius himselfe confesseth . but now to the point whereon we are in present , we suppose the person to be most holy , even as holy as the sonne of god ; on whom notwithstanding were inflicted , as all confesse , either hell paines , or that which was equivalent to hell paines . . yet this evill thus inflicted will never come to be infinite , still it continueth finite , though in infinitum ; it being utterly impossible by addition to make that which is finite become infinite . . but were it infinite , yet this authours caution would help us against the authour himselfe . for the good which god hath given such a creature , is also infinite , to wit his being . how much more if god preserve that creature from sinne , which by arminius his cofession , makes a man more miserable , then hell paines it selfe . lastly that there is such an absolute power in god raynaudus justifies both out of the twelvth of wisdoome . cum sis justus , juste omnia disponis . ipsum quoque qui non debet punire condemnare externum existimas à tuâ virtute . this reading he professeth to be corrupt and nothing coherent with the text ; and the true reading ought to be this , ipsum quoque qui non debet puniri condemnas . and shewes that this reading is followed by austin , q. . and saint grigory . . morall : cap. . this also he justifies to be orthodox by the testimony of the antients . macarius homil . . deus sui juris est , quod vult facit . si velit pro potestate & jure suo mittit justos in gehennam , ac peccatores in regnum . out of chrysostomt l. . de compunctione cordis sub finem . si te agentem quod tibi preceptum est conjicii jubeat dominus tuus in gehennam , aliqua tibi datur contradicendi potestas . out of austine in psal . . in the beginning multum movet dei amor & timor , timor dei quia justus est ; amor quia misericors est . quis enim diceret ei quid fecisti , si damnaret justum ? quanta ergo misericordia ejus est , ut justificet injustum ? then he represents the school-men maintaining the same . ariminenses , camariacenses , medina , secarius in cap. . iosuae à . and lorinus in cap. . sap : v. . yet is not raynaudus of their opinion who maintaines reprobation to be before the foresight of evill workes ; neverthelesse he is peremptory in justifying this ; and fulgentius whom he conceives to be the authour of that book de praedest . & gratia , which goes under austin's name , in a little treatise of his intituled censura inofficiosae censurae , which is added to his valerianus integrae vitae labisque purus . sect. . but it is replyed by some ( who will rather speak unreasonably and against common sense then lay down the conclusions which they have undertaken to maintain ) that it is more elegible to be tortured in hell then to want or loose a being . for he that wants a being enjoyeth no good , but he that is tormented in hell , hath a being , and by consequent something that is good . if therefore god may take away a man's being that is innocent , and turne him into nothing for his pleasure , much more may he torment him in hell . i am glad to see my name so often remembred by this authour in his margent ; for a long time i desired to know his way by certaine evidence ; for i would not suffer my selfe to be carried away with rumours ; and withall i found some contradiction in the relations i received from different persons , but at length i was so happy as to see it under his own hand , and there to observe not his judgment only , but the strength of his affections also . now let the reader observe the cunning carriage of this authour , and how farre off it is from all ingenuitie . for what i discourse , being drawne thereunto by arminius his excursions , that this authour obtrudes upon me , as if the defence of the cause i tooke in hand had drawn me thereunto , notwithstanding that i have professed the contrary . for thus i write l. . pag. . de electione sect : . pag. . in the canvasing of this section arminius runs out at large , saving that most of these things which here he heapes up are aliena , and nothing pertinent to the present purpose ; as pertaining rather to the decree of reprobation , then to the decree of election . and a little after i write thus ; hence it is that arminius expatiates and transfers his disputation from the point of election , to the point of reprobation too unseasonably : yet wisely affecting the incolumity of his wavering cause . by that right ( saith he ) which god hath over his creature , he cannot ordaine any man to the suffering of pain without the foresight of sinnne . to wit that his cause might stand upright , and that this examiner might omit nothing that tends to the making of his opinion plausible with his propitious reader , it was needfull that he should make use of some such transition , though never so unreasonable but seeing such are the wiles and artifices of our adversaries to confound all scholasticall method , it shall not be unseasonable for me to weigh what he delivers as briefly as i can . therefore after i had refused arminius on that point , where he denyes , that god can doe that injustice , which he can doe by power ; after this manner i enter upon a new digression concerning this point . hitherto have i followed arminius in his extravagants . for m. perkins hath not proceeded so farre ; as to affirme that god hath power to afflict an innocent creature , neither hath his adversaries objected any such thing unto him , as justly inferred from ought delivered by him . so that all such have well hardened their foreheads , who faigne that our opinion cannot well subsist without the help of so horrid and so harsh an assertion , to wit , that it is better to be miserable , then not to be at all . it is true , some may conceive that though this were a truth , it were to be suppressed , rather then affirmed by reason of the harshnesse of it . let every one consider aright that i undertake the defence of m. perkins , and it is he that hath uttered this harsh assertion , ( namely , that god can inflict hell paines without any demerit in the creature ) out of cameracensis : and it stood me upon to defend m. perkins so farre as i had reason for it . now finding the maine argument whereby arminius maintaines the contrary ( to that other , yet more harsh proposition ) to be most unsound ; and even this assertion which sounds most harsh in the eares of many , not only to be maintained by austine himselfe and and divres schoole-divines , but answered by many arguments , the solution whereof was never expedited by any ; have i deserved so sharply to be censured for representing all this in the way of justifying m. perkins , whose defence i undertook against arminius ? . my words are these translated , god can annihilate the holiest creature , which arminius confesseth , how much more is it in his power to afflict an innocent creature , and that for ever , considering that not only according to schoole-divines , but also according to austine , yea according to the truth it selfe , it is more to be desired to have being under any pain , then to have no being at all . and afterwards i propose not one argument of mine own for the justifying of this , but only represent the discourse of austine hereupon , as it is analized by durandus that schoole divine . now why are not the school-men censured , as men speaking unreasonably and against common sense ? nay why is not austine censured as one that had rather speak unreasonably and against common sense ; then lay downe the conclusion which he hath once undertaken to maintain , as well as my selfe ? yea and much more considering that the discourse proving this , is saint austin's ; and had i not added on the by these four words etiam secundum ipsam veritatem , there had been no place at all for any censure to be past upon me . if a man finding himselfe convicted by austin's discourse shall confesse that what he writes is true , is it equity to censure him as one who had rather speak unreasonably and against common sense , then lay down the conclusions which formerly he hath undertaken to maintain . when in the mean time no censure is at all passed upon austine , who alone is the player of the game , he that stands by professing only in his judgment , he playes his game well . . if austine hath spoken unreasonably and against common sense , how comes it to passe that this censurer hath not taken the paines to represent unto the world the unreasonablenesse of his argument ? this authour spends his mouth frankly in censuring , but takes no paines to free his reader from errour , by solving arguments produced by austin for the proofe of that wich this authour conceives to be an errour . . nay he doth not so much as answer that one argument , which here is proposed by me . an argument which the scoole-men use as sufficiently convincing the truth , as durandus and ricardus . yet considering the unreasonable condition of such adversaries , who take no course to convince or confute their opposites , but imperiously to cry them down ; i have taken the paines to call to an account both austin's arguments and others proposed by schoole-divines , and to devise with my selfe what answer might be made unto them , so to performe that for my adversaries , which they shew no hart to performe for themselves , and i was borne in hand that such a digression of mine should be extant long ere this . yet by the way i wonder not a little that one thing is pretermitted . for if i mistake not , this very authour is the man that heretofore hath been very full mouthed in censuring , not so much the doctrine it selfe , as a certain answer i made to an argument brought out of scripture against it ; namely from those words of our saviour , it had been better for that man if he had never been born . my answer was , that it was spoken according to the judgment of man , though indeed erroneous ; and that after this manner phraseologies of scripture doe proceed i there shewed . now this authour hereupon spared not to professe , that if this were true he would turne atheist . i wisht that friend of mine to whom he spake this , to perswade him the next time he met with him , to enquire and consider well , whether maldonat the jesuite doth not imbrace the same interpretation . and indeed if such protestations would carry it , this authour would prove a very potent and formidable adversary , i have seen the like under his own hand , namely this , as plutarch said of the old heathens who sacrificed men that they might pacifie their gods : that it had been better with diagoras to say , there is no god , then to think that god is such a one that delights in the blood of men : and hereupon he adds this protestation , i protest unto you i think it less dishonourable to the blessed trinity , to say with the atheist , there is no god , then to feigne such a god , as the decree of reprobation maintained by the contraremonstrants maketh him to be . this man i find is resorted unto and consulted with by the arminians , as if his judgment were an oracle ; and i willingly confesse he deserves to be in some great place unto them : and no place in my judgmentmore fit then to be unto the , à protestationibus . yet i doe not prescribe but leave it to their discretion to prefer him as they think good : but how comes it to passe , that here he is silent in reviving the reproaches he cast upō my answer to the scripture before mentioned ? is it because maldonat the jesuite hath been since found by him to embrace the same interpretation ? and he is loath to fall so foule in censuring such as he is ? yet here he falls foul on me for professing my approbation , not of schoole-men but of austin's discourse . this makes me call to mind what was delivered of him sometimes by a london minister ; as that he should perswade a young divine to study bellarmine ; as also what censures others have passed upon some writings of his . and it hath been my hap to see under his own hand such a counsaile as this givē to a friend of his . these things have i represented unto you the rather , because i would give you occasion to learne that in your younger dayes , which i have learned by late and long experience in my selfe , and that in these two things . first in reading bellarmine and other adversaies to our church ; i have divers times noted such speeches in them , as to my thinking involved contradiction , or had shew of absurdity , or might either give advantage to our selves , or breed prejudice unto them ; but when afterward i came in cooler blood to weigh the words better , and to consider the circumstances more narrowly . i found that i did mistake their meaning , and that an itching desire to find an advantage , made me to take shadowes for substance . and the like mistake in my selfe i observed , when i read the fathers , or the scriptures , ready to interpret every thing either in favour of mine own cause , or in prejudice of the adversaries : and concludes sententiously thus ; nimirum ita est ingenium nostrum , facile credimus , quae nimium volumus . if such be the genius of this authour , though he thinks not good to spare me for austin's sake , yet methinks he should spare me for richardus sake , or at the least for maldonat's sake . this calls to my remembrance an epigramme which d. hoskins my chamber-fellow in new-colledge sometimes made upon the fleas , ( that sore troubled him as he lay in his bed . ) and the conclusion was thus ; but if ther 's nothing that can slack your rage and your correction , yet ô remember you are black ; and spare me for complexion . so we proceed . sect. . to the first part of this reply , namely , that it is more desirable to be in hell , then to be nothing . i oppose three things . . the speech of our saviour concerning judas : woe be to that man by whom the sonne of man is betraied , it had been good for that man if he had never been born two things especially are set forth in these words of our saviour . first the misery of judas the betraier of the lord. woe be &c. secondly , the greatnes of his misery , it had been good &c. it is as much as if the lord had said , judas the traitour shall be damned , and therefore so woefull will his condition be , that it had been good and happy for him , if he had never received a being : good in earnest , as the interpreters doe generally expound it , not in the opinion and esteem of weak minded , faint-hearted-men only as some few understand it . for first let it be granted that scripture speaketh of things sometimes according to men's opinions , yet without reason to fasten such an expostiō upon any scripture , is to doe , as dunces doe in the schooles , who being not able to answer a place in aristotle wherewith they are charged , shift it off , and say , ( loquitur ex aliorum sententiâ , he speaks according to the opinion of others . ) . this scripture cannot in reason be thus expounded . first because it is an argument and ground by which christ declareth the truth and greatnesse of the misery of judas , woe to the man &c and why woe ? because it had been good &c. but it were no argument to shew his woefull estate by , to say that it had been good for him , that he had never been born in the opinion of men , who mistake the case but not in truth . . because this exposition would teach and encourage men to be atheists and epicures . in the second of wisdome , we read how voluptuous men doe stirre up one another to enjoy the good things , that are present , to fill them selves with wine and ointments , to leave some token of their jollity in every place and to practise all manner of wickednesse . and what is their motive ? a false perswasion that their soules shall dye with their bodies ; and that they should have noe being after death . if this conceit would flesh them thus in their opinions and voluptuous courses , how freely and eagerly ( may we thinke ) would they pursue their carnall and sinfull delights , if they could be but once perswaded , that , after all their pleasure they should be in better case then if they had noe being ? secondly , i oppose common consent . where shall wee pick out a man , but will say ( if he speak from his heart ) that he were better to vanish into a thousand nothings , then to be cast into hell . what is the reason why men are so afraid of hell , when they are touched to the quick with the conscience of their ungodly lives , and the expectation of eternall vengeance , that with job they curse their birth day , and wish an hundred times over that they had never been , or might cease to be , that so they might not come into the place of torments , but because they judge a being there to be incomparably worse , then no being any where ? and why are men who are sensible of hell fire so strongly curbed in the feare of feeling it , even from darling and beloved sinnes , but because they apprehend it to be the most terrible of terribles ? feare of being annihilated can never doe that , which the feare of hell doth . m. mason went great bellied with these choise conceits , and therefore he will bring them in though it be by the cares , in spite of his own friends : like as arminius did before him , to vent a certaine argument of his , which yet had a very unhappy issue to the betraying of the authours nakednesse most shamefully ; and his argument was this , to be happy is better thē simply to be ; therefore to be miserable , is worse then simply not to be ; now the consequence is most inconsequent . for therefore to be happy is better then simply to be ; because , to be happy , includes being , & addes hapines thereunto . and one good added to another good must needs make the whole compound better . in like manner , if to be miserable doth include the evill of not being and adde another evill thereunto , the whole compound must needs be worse . but to the contrary it is apparent , that , to be miserable doth not include the evill of not being , but the good of being rather ; and consequently there is no just proportion between misery and happinesse , and therefore though to be happy is better then simply to be ( as including being , and some good thing more ) yet thence it followes not , that to be miserable , is worse then not to be ; for as much as , to be miserable , doth not include the evill of not being and adde some evill more to it . now the first that affirmed this harsh position , namely , that to be miserable is not worse then not to be at all , was austin , and he not only affirmes it , but disputes it , and proves it by variety of arguments , not one whereof is answered by this authour or by any friend that i know . and from austin the school-men have taken it , and added this one argument to confirme it over and above those of austine's , to turne a man into nothing is to destroy a man's universall being ; but to inflict torment upon him doth destroy only particular being , to wit , his being in ease and pleasure . now to have a man's particular being destroyed is not so bad , as to have a man's universall being destroyed . now i come to consider how this authour carrieth himselfe in overthrowing his own fiction . for albeit the position impugned by bim , be no fiction ( for it was the opinion of austin and of divers school-men ) yet the bringing it in here , as if it were an answer made by us to any of our adversaries objections ( as this authour doth ) as if we stood in need o● any such aide is a mere fiction . and first he states it at pleasure to serve his own turne , of being in hell to be more desirable , whereas the authour whom he opposeth delivers it of , esse mi erum to be miserable and misery is as well in respect of sinne , as in respect of bodily torment nay it is confessed by arminius himselfe , that the misery of sinne is greater , then the misery of torment . so , that if it be uncouth to say , that to be under the torment of hell is better then not to be at all ; it ought to seem more uncouth to say , that it is better for a man to be guilty of sin , then to have no being at all . now i doe not find that this authour in all his mountebank-like amplifications , did take this into consideration . againe when it is said . that to be miserable is better thē not to be , this is to be understood aright , not as if misery it selfe were desirable , but being only , though with the adjunct of misery thus , to have a being though in misery is more desirable , then to have no being at all and so if it beapplyed to the misery of torment , and that in hell , it ought to be taken thus , to have a being though in hell is more desirable then to have no being at all . and it is apparent , that in not being at all , there is nothing at all desirable , but in being ; though under the greatest pain there is something desirable , to wit , being . now i consider his reasons . he objecteth the saying of our saviour to iudas . woe be to that man by whom the sonne of man is betrayed , it had been good for that man if he had never been born : and indeed the betraying of the sonne of god his lord and master , was a most facinorous act , especially being committed by the way of a kisse , & with sweet words saying hayle master . and schoolmen doe distinguish between , the misery of sinne , and the misery of pain , in such sort that albeit they deny the latter to be worse then not being , yet they doe not reason so of the former . but because iudas was not so sensible of the miserable condition of the one , as of the other ; therefore our saviour sets forth the woefull condition of that state whereof he , and generally all are most sensible . whence we may well argue , that our saviour speakes in conformly to man's sense and judgment , and it was not long ere the terrours of a guilty conscience took hold of him , and he went forth and hang'd himselfe . yet our saviour saith not , it had been good for iudas if he had never received any being , but only this , if he had never been borne ▪ now being is not received in a man's birth but in the conception rather . and undoubtedly , if iudas had perished in his mothers womb it had been much better for him . as arch-byshop whitgift sometimes in the court of high commission said , of one that was accused and convicied o● some foule crime committed by him in the very house of god that better it had been , that his neck had been broken at the first , then that he should live to be o●scandalous to the church of god and yet as if our saviours wordes were not enough for this authour in saying , it had been good for that man ; therefore he patcheth it out with a supplement of his own , thus , it had been good and happy for that man , if he had never received being . so that whereas aristotle made happinesse to consist in an aggregation of all good things this authour with his divinitie thinks good to mend aristtotl's philosophy , by placing happinesse in the want of every good thing very learnedly and judiciously . vulcan who made thunder-bolts for iupiter , when he was cast out of heaven had a shrewd fall , and contracted such lamenesse as stuck by him ever after . so this authour who forgeth thunder-bolts and arguments for others , being fallen upon opposition to the prerogative of god's grace and his soveraignty over all creatures ; no marvaile if his logick and philosophy halteth ; and his infirmity so contracted may increase so farre , as in the end to bereave him of commō sense . he contents himsele as his manner is with saying , that interpreters doe generally expound it as he doth ; some few he confesseth understand it other wise , but most concurre with him , to wit , that , it is delivered in earnest ; what a jest is this as if any interpreter was ever known to say , that our savour spake not in earnest . neither doe i know any that interpreteth the place as he shapes it , as if our saviour spake according to the opinion of weak-minded faint-hearted men only . not one that i know putteth any such difference of men under the torments of hell . like as the prophet speakes of the stoutest , as well as the weakest , can thy heart endure , or thine hands be strong in the day that i have to deale with thee , or the lord rather by the prophet . the school-men suppose without difference , that the damned wish they had never been borne , or rather that they had never been . so the saints of god in this life have broken forth into passionate expressions in the time of their extremity ; maldonate on this place gives instance in many ; but the question is whether these proceed from the judgment of right reason ; or erroneous rather , through the vehemēcy of passion , whose course is as aquinas observes , extinguere rationem , to extinguish reason . and it is one of the three things as aristotle observes in his bookes de animâ , that hinders the mind in her judgment . the other two are , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a disease , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sleep ; the third is passion ; how much more when passion is stirred up by the sorest disease of all other the torments of hell fire ? . but if i am glad to see the issue whereto he drives his discourse . for he grants that the scripture speakes sometimes according to men's opinions : but without reason to fasten such an expression upon any scripture , is to doe as dunses doe &c. he gives no instance ; i will supply the want thereof , and that out of one of those dunses a follower of iohn duns an eminet school-man , from whose name school-men are called dunses , whom this authour was woont to magnifie ; lychetus a minorite is the man , who is the first that i have found hitherto maintaining that god's purpose of election of any particular man may cease ; and the purpose of reprobating the same may come in the place thereof . so the purpose of reprobating iudas may come in the place thereof , and that without all change in god. this is a doctrine that now a dayes growes in request penotus hath taken it up without betraying from whom he had it : and franciscus à sanctâ clarâ after him , and some of our arminians i find inamoured with it . now this lychetus , when he is charged with the doctrine of scotus as directly opposite hereunto , his answer is in part that he speakes according to the opinion of others . now i desire not upon better termes to contend with m. mason . for austine hath given many reasons to prove that simply and absolutely not to be , is not a thing desirable , above being , though joyned with never so great misery of pain . and the school-men acknowledge that austine herein delivers his judgment , and withall they concurre with him as scot , biel , durandus , maldonat . and it is evident that to be turned into nothing , is an universall destruction of being ; so is not inflicting of punishment , as both durandus and maldonat argue the case . and saying that not to have any being at all is better for iudas then to be in torment , here is something affirmed of a subject that makes him of a better condition then otherwise , which hath no place , but upon supposition of a subjects existence , & that in distinction from an attribute affirmed of him , which constitutes him in a condition of betternes , now that that which is nothing , by reason of being nothing , should be better the something , is one of the wildest expressions , i think that hath been heard of since the world began ; and therewithall creatures began to have a being . againe consider , take gabriel the arch-angell most holy as a creature , and let every sober man judge , whether it were better for him not to be , then being holy as he is to be tormented in hell fire . i should think that albeit god should torment me with hell fiire yet if he should preserve my soule from sinne & in the love of him out of the sense of his love towards me , i should have infinitly more cause to rejoyce then to complain , how weak soever i am at this present . thirdly , if it be better and more desirable to have no being at all , then to be in hell fire ; then this is to be uderstood of hell fire , either without limitation of time only : or with limitation . if only it hold in respect of everlastingnesse , then it followes it is better to be in hell fire , provided a man shall not everlastingly continue there , then to have no being at all , though it be for a thousand yeares , not only twise told ; but a thousand times over and over , and that multiplied cubically , and yet no end of multiplication of the time of tormenting . if it be better to have no being at all then to suffer hell torments so long , then it is better to have no being at all , then to suffer hell torments halfe so long : for no reason can be given to the contrary ; in a word it will follow , that it were better to have no being , then to suffer hell torments one houre , or halfe an howre , or a quarter , or a minute , or halfe a minute . for no reason can define the bounds within which it will be better to suffer the paines of hell fire , then to be turned into nothing , and beyond which it will be worse . but m. mason saith secondly . this scripture cannot in reason be thus expounded : and he gives his reason for it : because it is an argument and ground by which christ declareth the greatnesse or truth of the misery of iudas : and i pray let every sober man judge , whether this be not a sufficient amplification of that misery , that they shall wish they had never been , or that they might be turned into nothing , rather then suffer such torments . how many preferre death before this worlds misery , and so goe on to destroy themselves ; will it therefore follow that death indeed , though it should be an utter abolition of man , is not so bad as to suffer the miseries of this world . the mistake of a damned person wishing not to be , consists not in conceiving his torments to be unsufferable with any content or patience , but in conceiving that by not being , he should have ease , which is a most absurd conceit , arising merely from distraction of mind throug extremity of anguish . so that all things rightly considered , here is no encouragement for men to become atheists & epicures , unlesse this be an encouragement thereunto , that their pain shall be so extreme and unsufferable , as to make them desire , and utter they know not what , such distraction of mind and and perturbation of judgment shall surprize them . a false perswasion that mens soules shall die with their bodies , and that they shall have no being after death , urgeth every man indifferently to take his delights and pleasures while he may ; whether this delight and pleasure be taken in courses vicious , or in courses vertuous , because death sets an end , as to them ; so to their pleasures and delights . but if their greatest happinesse , or misery doth begin in joy , or sorrow after death ; and this is well known unto them : sober reason doth suggest unto them to provide for the obtaining of that happinesse , and declining that unhappinesse , above all other , according to that ladies resolution in sophocles , and that upon this ground 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there i shall continue for ever . but when he saith the wicked will the more eagerly pursue their carnall and sinfull delights , because after all their pleasures they shall be in a better case , then if they had no being . i long to have the judgment of any lewd person throughout the world concerning this ; as namely whether he takes any comfort or encouragement to sinfull courses from this ; that albeit he shall be cast with the devill and his angells into hell fire that never goeth out . yet this condition is a better condition , then not to have any being at all ; whereas this better condition consists only in this , that being is better then not being ; not in this , that he hath any ease , or is lesse obnoxious to torment and sorrow , which shall be so unsufferable , as to provoke him to wish , that he never had any being at all . or that forthwith he might be turned into nothing . secondly , i oppose common consent . where shall we pick out a man but will say ( if he speak from his heart ) that he were better to vanish into a thou and nothings , then to be cast into hell ? what is the reason why men are so afraid of hell , when they are touched to the quick with the conscience of their ungodly lives , and the expectation of eternall vengeance , that with job they curse their birthday , and wish an hundred times over , that they had never been , or might cease to be , that so they might not come into that place of torments ; because they judge a being there to be incomparably worse , then no being any where ? and why are men , who are sensible of hell fire , so strongly curbd and held in with feare of feeling it , even from dailing and beloved sinnes , but because they apprehend it to be the most terrible of all terribles ? feare of being annihilated can never doe that which feare of hell doth . and is he well in his wits that talkes of a thousand nothings ? i looked whereto it would come with such like wild discourses , even to runne out of common sense at last . yet all this that he discourseth of , for the substance of it is no other , then austine hath taken notice of in his very argument ; and shewes the vanity of it , and the errour of man's imagination , conceiving the condition of being nothing , to be a condition of ease and rest from sorrow & pain ; againe aske the same men whether they would not be content to be turned into dogges , wolves , snakes , toades , rather then to be under the torments of hell fire ; aske againe whether they would not be contēt , to be turned into devills , so they might be free from the torments of hell fire . aske the adulterour whether he would not be content to lye with an other mans wife all his daies , rather then to suffer ( shall i say ) the torments of hell fire ? nay rather then dye possest of the joyes of heaven . aske this authour whether he would not be content to maintaine stiffly , that grace is given according to workes , and that a man is justified by his workes , rather then suffer the paines of hell fire , yea though it were against his own conscience . as for me were i a damned creature , yet according to this judgment which god hath given me cōsidering that the glory of god's justice is manifested in my condemnation , though extreamity of pain would transport me into as wild wishes , as this authour justifies ; yet according to right reason i should rather be content to suffer , then wish that i were turned into a bruit beast , or into a devill , or into nothing . i think the whole nation of sober divines would justifie me in this undoubtedly god is able to worke me or any man to this resolution without sin . . if , because men through feare of hell and expectation of eternall vengeance doe with job curse their birth day once , and wish they had never been ; therefore it is better to be nothing then to be in hell : by the same reason , because they doe no other then job did , it must follow , that it was better for iob to be nothing , then to be under such torments . but if iob's desire was an unsober and unreasonable desire in this , why might not their desire be as unsober and unreasonable also , proceeding not so much from calme reason , as from the strength of passion inflamed and disordered through extremity of torment . we know that men upon the rack doe sometimes make confessions , even against the light of their own consciences . and feare of evill sometimes distracts as much as the sense thereof ; as in him who hearing the sentence of death passed against him at paris , fell into a sweat of blood . and it was wont to be said , that pejor est malo , timor ipse mali . francis spira in the time of his distraction confest as much of hell it selfe . and if one desire , once having course , prove unreasonable , why should the renewing of it a thousand times over prove lesse unreasonable . and let the judicious observe the hand of god , in striking this authour with such giddinesse even in this argument , ( which he conceives of all other to be advantagious to his cause ) so as at every turne to supplant himselfe , and to betray the shamefull nakednesse of his discourse . as first , in talking of a thousand nothings . secondly , in putting the case of some cursing their birth day , but how ? as iob did . now will any sober man make the like collection of iob's cursing his birth day , as this author doth from others cursing theirs . thirdly , and lastly in calling hell fire the terrible of all terribles . who seeth not that this proceeds in reference to such things , which as they are feared , soe they may be felt ; and supposing a subject existing , as to feare it before it comes , so to feele it when it is come but such is not the condition of being nothing . and when he feignes us to conforme to his crude conceptions , namely to conceive annihilation to be a thinge feared , he pleaseth himselfe in his owne fictions . he no where finds me to speake of annihilation as a thing to be feared , no more then i speake of it as of a thing that is to be felt . onely i say that it is a condition no way desirable by a reasonable creature , no more then the suffering of hell fire . but whereas hell fire cannot be suffered of any unlesse he hath a being , here is something found desirable , to wit the continuance of being . but in the condition of being nothing , there is not found any thing to be a fit object of mans desire . the third thing which i oppose is common sense ; which judgeth paines , when they are extreame to be worse then death . hence it is that job being tormented in his body by the devill cursed his birth day , magnified the condition of the dead , and wished himselfe in the grave , plainely preferring the losse of his being , before that miserable being which he then had . and hence it is that men even of stoutest and hardest spirits ( as we see by dayly experience ) would ( if they might enjoy their option ) choose rather to have no bodyes at all , then bodyes tormented with the stone or gout , or any other sharpe and sensible disease it is a knowen saying grounded on this judgement of sense . praestat semel quàm semper mori , better it is to dye once then to be allwayes dying . this the tyrant tiberius knew very well , and therefore he would not suffer those , towards whom he purposed to exercise his cruelty , to be put to a speedy death , but by lingring torments . and suetonius repo●t●th of him in that chapter , wherein he reckoneth up his barbarous and cruell practises ; these , sayth he , who would have dyed through the extremity of their torment , he used meanes to keepe alive ( nam mortem adeo leve supplicium putabat ) for he accounted death so light a punishment ; that when he heard that one carnulius , a man appoynted to torments , had prevented him , he cryed out , carnulius me evasit carnulius hath escaped mine hands . to a prisoner entreating him to put him quickly to death he gave him this answer , nondum tecum redii in gratiam , i am not yet friends with thee ; accounting it a great kindnesse to put him quickly to death , whom he might have tortured . many that were called into question did partly wound themselves in their owne houses , ad vexationem ignominiosam vitandam , to prevent that paine and ignominy , which they knew they should endure ; and partly poysoned themselves in the mid'st of the court , as they were going to their a●●aingment for the same cause seneca speaking of one mecaenas , who was so a frayd of being dead , that he sayd he would not refuse weakenesse , deformity , nec acutam crucem , no nor the sharpest crucifying , so that he might live still in these extreamityes , he calleth his desire . turpissimum votum , a base , and most ignoble , and unnaturall with , and censureth him for a most effeminate and contemptible man ; because in all his evills he was afrayd of that which was the end of all evills , the privation of his being and certainly we must needs conceive and censure them to be stocks and stones , rather then flesh and blood , who can so put of all feeling , and sense , as to thinke a tormented being in hell , to be a lighter and lesser evill , then no being at all . we know that death to such as iob was , is not only better then extreame paines , but better then all the joyes of this world ; by how much to be present with the lord christ , is better then to be absent from him ; and we know , sayth paul , to the unspeakable comfort of all true christians , that when the earthly house of this our tabernacle is dissolved we have a building of god not made with hands , but eternall in the heavens . so that i wonder not a little at these wilde discourses of this authour . when he saith that even the stoutest and hardest spirits would choose rather to have no bodyes at all , then bodyes tormented with the stone or gout , what other is this then to desire that they were impassible ; would they not desire to have no soules too ? and to be without sense like stocks and stones ? but let every sober man judge whether this be a reasonable desire ; what christian justifies iob in cursing the day of his birth ? what martyr hath not rejoyced in suffering , not naturall diseases , but the cruellest torments that most cruell , and spightfull tyrants could devise to be inflicted upon them ? and even to suffer other evills by course of nature brought upon us with patience , acknowledging the hand of god therein , and submitting unto his will , justifying him as righteous in all his wayes , and holy in all his works , and condemning our selves : even this long a goe hath beene accounted for martirdome in the judgement of chrysostome . it is true such proverbs have had their course in most nations . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , praestat semel quam semper mori . and amongst us . better eye out then allwaies aking , better one dead then allwaies dying . but shall we take this hand over head without a difference between a christian & unchristian , and heathenish interpretation ? as many as had an opinion of the immortall condition of the soule , and withall of different conditions of men in joy , or sorrow , according to the condition of their life spent in their courses vertuous , or vicious , if they were well perswaded of their life past , they might accordingly think it better for them to dye then live ; and it is noe lesse desirable to them , who had no comfort in their life past . bradwardine hath such a meditation . mallem non esse quàm te offendere , i had rather have no being at all then to offend thee , speaking unto god. yet in sinning against him we are matter of his glory , which we are not , when we have no being at all . matter of his glory i say , either in pardoning sinne , or in punishing it , or both . but what sober man will justifie such a saying , i had rather have no being at all then be troubled with the stone , or gout ? is not this the proper place for patience to have its perfect worke . and if it be urged that this holds true only in evills tolerable , not in case they prove intolerable . i answer that surely the pain of stone or gout is not intolerable , not any in the judgment of paul , whose profession was this i am able to doe all things ( his meaning is to suffer all things ) by the power of christ that inableth me : and when upon his prayer that the messenger of satan might be removed from him , he received this answer from the lord , my grace is sufficient for thee , and my power is made perfect in thy weaknesse , what is paul's resolution hereupon , though in himselfe a very weak creature ? i will gladly therefore rejoyce in my infirmities , that the power of christ may dwell in me . therefore i take pleasure in infirmities , in reproaches , in necessities , in persecution , in anguish , for christ's sake . for when i am weak then i am strong . doth not this extend to the very torments of hell suffered by our saviour for our sakes . undoubtedly , if the glory of heaven possesse the soule , though the paines of hell seize upon the body , such a one shall have more cause to rejoyce then to complain . these courses of tiberius i had cause to take notice of in mine answer to m. hord. for , whereas he slaundered our doctrine concerning the absolutenesse of god's decrees , and conforming them to the cruell courses of tiberius : whereupon i shewed , that if such comparisons were not odious , but allowable , we might in like manner compare god's courses in punishing sinne temporall with torment eternall , with courses of tiberius here specified . and because nothing hath a greater shew of cruelty in tiberius then such courses of his as these . hence they may with the same liberty conclude , that the divine majesty is cruell ( which is a horrible thing to utter ) and unjust in punishing men everlasting in hell fire , for sinnes committed by them for a very short space in the course of their lives . but let this authour consider , were heathen princes more exasperate against any then against christians , or were more cruell courses taken against any then the servants of god. yet did these christians prevent their bloody and barbarous desires by murdering their selves ? did they not rejoyce in tribulation ? yet death they might well preferre before the sweetest life . that they might enjoy the lord christ and austine hath long agoe in this very argument shewed , that even in destroying themselves they aimed at being at a state of freedome from sorrowes . so farre were they from affecting to have no being at all . and first , he distinguishes of the will as it signifies an appetite naturall ; or as it signifies an absolute desire . as it signifies nature or appetite naturall ; so by no meanes can it desire to have no being . all naturall desire being for rest , but nature findes no rest in its destruction : rest of nature supposeth its being , and adds somewhat over and above thereunto , namely freedome from trouble , unde siquis dicat vellem non esse , magis quàm miserum esse ; respondebo , mentiris , quia cum miserum nolis esse tamen vis . thus durand analizeth austin's discourse hereupon . then he proceeds to shew that the deliberative appetite cannot affect not being , for the avoiding of evill , save only according to erroneous reason . all which this authour takes no notice of , but pleaseth himselfe in his own confusion . all creatures have in them , vestigia dei , saith luther , to wit , in respect of their being ; but man is , imago dei. shall right reason suggest the destroying of this for pain 's sake ? durandus proceeds & shewes how according to erroneous reason a man may destroy himselfe , by reason of some present miserable condition urging him ; conceiving that thereby he shall arrive to some secret existence wherein he shall be free , as from the good things , so from the evill things of this world . unde agustinus ubi supra dicit , quòd aliqui urgente miseriâ sese interimūt , eo quòd confugiunt ubi melius fore putaverint . a second manner is this , the vehemency of evill suffered may so over-cloud and trouble reason , as to make them conceive , that to have no being at all is better then to be in misery , which is absurd , saith he ; for as much as the privation of evill is not good , but by reason of obtaining of the contrary good ; but no such good can be obtained in being nothing , howsoever men through errour of judgment may faigne it otherwise . in which case he makes choice of nothing ( thinking to make choice of something ) and consequently his election is erroneous , as austine concludeth . but seneca is the best flower in this authours present discourse ; and the censure which he passeth upon one mecaenas , who , so he might live , would not care what torments he suffered . where by the way i observed ; that albeit this authour represents the common sense of heathens only in this . yet all heathens were not of the same mind . secondly , i observe that seneca who censureth him did look for an immortall condition after death , which it seemes was no part of mecaenas his creed . and upon this ground his censure might proceed . and indeed otherwise it is very strange that he should censure him for effeminatenes , in respect of a resolute mind to endure tortures , which we know full well is usually accounted virile aliquid , rather then muliebre , the part of a man , more then the part of a woman . thirdly , i find in austine , that this was the opinion of varro and the stoicks , that it became a man to destroy himselfe , rather then to endure some evills , and in this doctrine of theirs , he findes some contradiction to another doctrine of their own , which was this , hanc esse naturae primam quodammodo & maximam vocem , ut homo concilietur sibi , & propterea mortem naturaliter fugiat , this is the first and greatest voice of nature , that man should be at one with himselfe , and therefore naturally flieth death . and herein austine himselfe acknowledgeth them to deliver a truth . now consider , is a man at one with himselfe when he destroyes himselfe ? is he not rather at odds with himselfe in making a man's fortitude to be a selfe destroyer ? if so be that deserves to be called fortitude , as there austine speakes : or how can the duty of preserving a man's selfe , be the greatest voice of nature , if there be found a voice of nature countermanding it , and commaunding a man to kill himselfe ? in suffering evills there is place for the exercise of patience , of true fortitude and magnanimity of mind : but in the utter destruction of nature there is no place for the exercise of any vertue : which vertue was so farre advanced by the stoicks , as touching the power of it , as to be able to descend into phalaris his bull , as cicero discourseth in the last of his tusculane questions yet not only great evills , for the insufferable nature of them did urge them to destroy themselves , but meaner evills most unreasonably . what moved cato to destroy himselfe , but because he would not come under caesar ? his stout spirit could not endure subjection . yet he read over plato's discourse of immortality the night before , and felt the edge of his sword , which some censure as an argument of some pusillanimity . the spaniard , who was whipt through paris never changed his pace , affecting to maintaine the reputation of spanish gravity and resolutenesse , though he smarted the more for it . and shall not our being in the likenesse and image of god , be preferred before not being , though conjunct with any dolorous suffering : when this authour will have no being , to be a lighter and lesser evill then hell paines ; doth he not most manifestly signifie that it is a burden more easie to be borne ? thus ere he is aware most contradictiously he supposeth that , even in not being , there is a being . for how is it possible that an evill can be borne , and that with more ease then some other evill , by him who hath no being at all . but let him straine his wits to devise where first pain begins to be so great , that a man's utter destruction is to be preferred before it , seeing it is apparent that all pain is not such . the . sect : to the reason on which the reply is grounded , which is melius est esse , quàm non esse . it is better to be , then to have no being . i answer that it is a sophisme or , a fallacy a non distributo ad distributum . to be in it selfe is better then not to be , but it is not universally true in all particulars . againe it is true in some cases , & ex hypothesi , si caetera sint paria ; if there be any equality in the adjuncts , it is so farre from being simply true ; that our saviour limiteth it , and putteth a case wherin it is not true but the contrary to it is true : that is the case of judas of which we have said somewhat before . it had been good &c. which words st. hierome expounding saith ; it is simply and plainly averred by our saviour , that it is better to have no being , then an evill being . this was the judgment too of job . why died i not saith he , in the birth ? why did the knees prevent me ? and why did i suck the breasts ? for now should i have lyen still , and been quiet , and should have slept then and been at rest . in which words he plainly implyeth , that he thought it better to have had no birth and being , then such a painfull and miserable being . this was also the opinion of solomon . so i returned saith he , and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sunne ; and behold the teares of such as were oppressed , and they had no comforter &c. wherefore i praised the dead which are already dead , more then the living which are yet alive . yea better is he , then both they , which hath not yet been , who hath not seen the evill works that are done under the sunne . the words doe clearly shew that solomon did think it better to be dead , and to be deprived of being , then to be oppressed by the mighty , and to be without comforters , that is then to have a miserable and mournfull being . indeed so hierome saith , but that is not all he saith . for he labours to prevent suspicion that iudas had some being before he was borne : which was the errour of origen . and the words of our saviour seemes to favour it as iansenius observes . quibus verbis origenianum quid significare videtur , quasi homo ille fuerit antequam nasceretur , quia nulli potest benè esse nisi ei qui fuerit . and hierome himselfe upon eccles . . . writes that some were of that opinion ; namely , arminas nostras antequam ad nostra corpora ista descendant versari apud superos , & tam diu beatas esse , quamdiu coelesti hierusalem & choro perfruantur angelico . neither doth hierome there passe any censure upon the authours of such an opinion . here indeed upon mat. . , he saith , we must not hereupon think that iudas had a being before he were born , because a well being can agree to none but such as have a being . which argument hierome doth not answer . for when he adds , sed simpliciter dictum est , multo melius esse non subsistere quàm malè subsistere . this rather confirmes the antecedent , namely , that it had been well for iudas , if he had not been ; then gives any tolerable or colourable answer to the consequence made therehence . and is not the authourity of austine as good as the authourity of hierome in this ? iansenius embraceth hieromes exposition ; but maldonat doth not , but at large disputes for another interpretation , the very same which i delivered before i were aware of maldonates exposition . and iansenius though he followes hierome in expounding this place , yet he professeth , that both euthymius of old , and caietan of late do understand this place in the same manner that durandus doth , namely , de nativitate ex utero , of iudas his bringing forth into the world , distinguishing his birth from his conception , ut sit sensus , after this meaning , bonum erat vel fuisset ei , si cum erat in utero matris suae non fuisset editus in lucem , sed mortuus tunc fuisset ; & sepulchrum ipsius uterus matris extitisset ; si enim tunc mortuus fuisset non incidisset in tantam & talem condemnationem , quantam & qualem natus propter immensum perditionis scelus erat excepturus . it had been good for him , if being conceived in his mothers wombe he had never been brought forth , but then had dyed , and his mothers wombe had been his grave . for had he then dyed his condemnation had been nothing like so heavy , as now it is . let me adde here maldonat's interpretation of this place which is memorable . of this passage some dispute subtelly more then enough how it could be better for iudas not to have been , whereas not to be is no good ; to be damned is some good ( meaning in respect of being ) for he that is damned is somewhat and every thing that is , as it hath a being is good . hierome signifies that some though iudas had a being before he was born ; and that christ of purpose sayd not , it were better for that man , if he had never been ; but if he had never been born , to signifie that though he had not been born ; yet he should have had a beeing , and so to have had naturall good things without evill . i imagine that hierome herin noted the originists , whose opinion was that as soules were from the beginning created , and each according to his merrit either to remaine without a body , or to be cast into a body as into a prison . and indeed origen so writes on this place , as he seemes not to be farre off from such an opinion . after the same manner allmost doth euthinius interpret this . but such like phrases of speech are not to be accommodated to the subtillty of the schooles . for they speak proverbiall speeches and vulgar , which commonly are somewhat hyperbollicall , as iob . . why hast thou brought me out of the wombe ? would i had perished , that the eye might not see me , that i had been as if i had not been , from the wombe carried to the grave . and ier : , , and chap : . let the day perish wherin i was born . for all these proceed not from any deliberate judgment of the mind ; but by way of complaint , whose course is to amplifie evills . christ therefore in like manner speaks of iudas , as it was to be thought he would speak of himselfe being in torment . now it was very credible that he would say ; i would i had never been born , it had been better for me never to have been born , then to suffer these paines : considering that job and jeremy most holy men have uttered the like speeches , under farre lesse sufferings . adde to this that christ saith not , it had been better that iudas had not been born born ; but that it had been better to him , to wit , in his opinion and judgment : as we see it befalls many suffering bitter evills , to preferre death before life , sorrow & pain before judgment , whereas without doubt to live is better then to dye . in the next place this authour saith , this was also the opinion of solomon . better is he then both they , which hath not yet been ; the words , saith he , do clearly shew that solomon didthinke it better to be dead and deprived of being , then to be oppressed of the mighty , and to have no comforters , that is then to have a miserable and mournfull being . surely solomon was not ignorant that of them that are dead there are two conditions ; some in the state of damnation ; others in the state of salvation . to be with god in the state of salvation , we make no question but that it is a better condition , then to be living here on the earth in the greatest happinesse that the world can affoord . but to be dead and in the state of damnation , can it enter into the heart of any sober christian , to believe that solomon ever thought such a condition to be better then to live here on earth , in the most afflicted condition that is incident to the sonns of men ? and doth this authour well in coupling death with deprivation of being , as if every one , or any one that is dead were deprived of being ? surely all the dead are not deprived of all kind of living . for god is the father of abraham , isaak , and iacob ; and he is not the god of the dead but of the living . againe consider who are more oppressed by the men of this world then the children of god ? for as our saviour told his disciples the world will love her own , but because ye are not of the world , and i have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth you all that will live godly in christ iesus shall suffer persecution , saith paul , and through manifold temptations we must enter into the kingdome of god. and our saviour forewarned his disciples , ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake . now is it credible , that , this authour should beleive or conceive that ever king solomon was of such an opinion , as to professe , that it is better for the children of god to be deprived of being then to live in oppression ? consider farther , the words cheifly pertinent to this authours purpose alleaged out of king solomon are these , better then they both is he which hath not yet been . now i presume this is spoken not of such an one , who as yet hath not been ; though hereafter he shall be . for such an one may be in as great oppression when his time comes , as any other is , or hath been , amongst those that have lived before him ▪ but rather of such an one as never yet hath been , nor never shall be now judg whether this can admit any sober sense , unlesse in a vulgar phrase , according to the intemperate expressions which in time of oppression are uttered by men wherein as maldonat observes , there is allwaies something hyperbolicall , and such as must not be examinedaccording to the subtilty of the schooles . for consider , is there but one such that never yet was , nor evershall be ; or are there many such ? if many such , how come they to differ , who have nothing wherein to differ ? what a vaine imagination is it to talke of particulars that never had , or shall have existence , to ascribe unto them a better condition then is found in them , that have not being only but life also ? we know cicero hath professed & that according to the opinion of stoicks , that a vertuous man may descend into phallaris his bull without any destruction of his happy condition . i have consulted solomo iarhi upon this place , and he tells us what he hath seen in the jewes midrach , namly , that there are generations which have growen old and wrinckled from the creation , who yet never were created , and belike the authours thereof conceive that solomon spake of one of these . rabbi aben ezra , proposeth the question , how can any better condition be said to be unto him , who was never created . and his answer is , that we must not wonder at such a speech of solomon ; for such speeches have their course . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by reason of the shortnesse or streightnes of the languages ; and therefore we must expresse our selves figuratively , and to speake hyperbollically is to speake figuratively . i betake me to mercer hereupon to acquaint my selfe with his judgment upon this place . hoc autem dicitur ; saith he , semper magnitudine aerumnarum hujus vitae considerata . coeterum christus aliâ ratione habitâ beatos pronunciat , qui persecutionem patiuntur propter justitiam maximè & dei nomen ; quia spiritualia & coelestia considerat repositam illis coronam gloriae in futurum . noster solomon externa tantum & praesentis vitae incommoda perpendit quae vere hydra est . thus he speakes allwaies having his eyes fixt upon the greatnesse of the miseries of this life , but christ in an other respect pronounceth them blessed who suffer persecution for righteousnes sake , especially and for the cause of god , because he considers spirituall and heavenly things , the crowne of glory laid up for them against the time to come . our solomon considers only outward things and the incommodities of this life present , which indeed is as it were a serpent with seven heads . this is the first expression of mercer in his interpretation of this place , which is as much as to say , that , solomon speakesherein according to the judgment of a naturall man. but mercer hath yet a farther reach then this , which followeth by way of instance or exemplification thus , sienim earum ratio habeatur ab eo qui illas perfert , mortem peroptat , aut etiam nunquam fuisse . for when he that suffers these miseries shall consider the weight & heavines of thē he wil be ready to wish he were dead , or that he had never been ; & no marvaile : for as maldonat observeth , even holy men of god such as iob & ieremy , have broken forth into such imprecations , judicio dolore corrupto , as he speakes , the pain which they suffer corrupting their judgment , this is to speake not only according to the judgment of a naturall man , but according to the judgmet of a man himselfe that suffers such miseries . furthermore mercer taketh notice of the school-mens discourses to the contrary , juxta scholarum subtilitatem , according to accurate judgmment , as maldonat speaketh . sophisticantur nostrorum nonnulli , praestare adhuc malè esse , quàm omnino non esse . some of ours dispute that it is better to be in an ill case , then to have no being at all . now doth mercer oppose this ? nothing lesse he rather admits it , and without contradiction thereunto , proceeds in his interpretation sed ut ut sit , vis malorū consideratur . buthowsoever that be , the force of the evill is considered , to wit , as before hath been shewed . . as in the judgment of a naturall man looking no farther then to the evills of this world . and ly , according to the sense & judgment of him that suffers them , quomodo & christus dicebat de iuda , melius fuerat homini illi si nunquam natus fuisset gravitatem praevidens tormentorum illius . after which manner christ sayd of iudas , it had been better for that man if he had never been borne , foreseeing the greivousnesse of his torments . the antient greeks and latines used the like proverbe , optimum non nasci , aut ubi natus sis , quam ocyssime aboleri . graecum epigramma inquit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the best condition was not to be borne ; the next to dye soonest . such were the conceits of naturall men in consideration of the evills of this world . and cicero is full of such passages in the first of his tusculans questions . in the last place i meet with a faire translation of this passage of solomon in piscator , who sets his translation on the other side to the translatiōns of iunius , & thus it runnes . sed beatiorē ut risque judicabam eū , qui non videt facta ista mala quae fiunt sub sole . but more hapy then both i judged him that hath not seen the evill workes that are done under the sun. for albeit in the hebrew something more there is , which is not here expressed , to wit , which hath not been . yet he conceives the last words to contain the fuil sense of them ; and therefore he interprets these words of those who have perished in their mothers wombe , or in their infancy or childhood , not of those who never had any being , perceiving manifestly the foule absurdity of such a speech according to accurate calculation . and mercer himselfe professeth that both these expressions are of the same force in solomon , and so that is more plainly set downe in the latter , which is more obscurely expressed in the former , which is a very usuall course in scripture . to this assenteth sir fran●s bacon in his colours of good and evill ; where against this mathematicall position ( as he caus it ) that there is no proportion between something and nothing , and that the before the degree of privation 〈◊〉 eater then the degree of diminution ; he excepteth that it is fal●e in sundry cases , and among the est in 〈◊〉 ; namely , when the degree o● diminution is more ●●●●tive then the degree of privation in this case at 〈◊〉 〈…〉 much better then a diminution . hence the 〈…〉 formes of speech . better eye out l●e 〈…〉 make or mar &c some evills o● paines ( perhaps ) either for their lightnes because they may be well end ●e● ; or for their 〈…〉 because they are quickly over ; are lesse : hen resolution into nothing and a man had better for a wh●●● 〈…〉 them , then loose 〈…〉 to be ●●d of them : because his being may afford 〈◊〉 presently , or afterward such and ●o many 〈…〉 things , as will more then recomp●nc● 〈◊〉 pain●s . but when his paines a●● so many and violent , 〈…〉 no other good then a poore being , or to ●inch him , that he cannot enjoy or joy in the good● that remaine , it were a thousand times better for him to have no being ; and such a●e the paines of 〈◊〉 ▪ which for the● greatnesse are infinite , producing many miserable weepings and waitings & ●●●●ning of teeth all symptomes of intolerable greifes , and for their ●eng●● eternal . the wo●me never ●●eth , the fi●c is never quenched but the breath of the lord as a river ofbr●● ▪ stone doth kindle it forever . and therefore it is incomparably better to cease to be , then to live in th●se torments , which cannot be equalled by any good , which a being can make us capable of , much lesse by that poore little 〈◊〉 good , which is all the good the damned injoy in hell . this sophisticall evasion therefore and all others of the like sert notwithstanding . i doubt not but i may safely say , that the unavoidable damna●●●n of so many mi●●ions , cannot be absolutely and antecedently intended by god , without the greatest injustice & cruelty which may in no wise be imputed unto god. plutar●h speaking of the pagans , who to pacifie the anger of their gods , did sacrifice to them men and wo●men ; it had been much better with di●gor is and his fellowes to deny the being of a god , then confessing a god to thinke he delights in the bloud of men . how much rather may we say it were better to be an atheist and deny god , then to believe or report him to be a devourer of the soules of men ? the like argument is pressed by eusebius against those cruell and merc●●es gods of the pagans , doubtles , saith he , if there were any foot-step or sparke of goodnes in them for which they might deserve to be called good , they would be disposed to doe good , and desirous to save all men , they would love justice and take a care of men . and being such how could they delight in their sl●ughter &c. yea he concludeth that they were devills or evill spirits ; and not gods or good spirits , because if they were good they would doe good ; whereas those that are evill use to doe hurt . i will therefore shut up my first reason with the speech of prosper , god indeed is the creator of all men , but yet of no man for this end , that he might be damned ; the reason why we are created is one , and why we are damned an th●r . the authority of s. francis bacon is most aliene from the present purpose , according to the instance given by him , which is onely of a destruction of a member , as better eye out then allwayes akeing . yet this holdes not , save of such an akeing , as is more evill and dangerous , then the sight is beneficiall , but we speake of the universall destruction of the creature . the same appeares by the generality of the exception given , as in case the decree of diminution be more sensible ( for so i conceive it should be , and not sensitive ) then the decree of privation . whereby it is manifest that he speakes of such a privation whereof the creature is sensible , though sensible with lesse smart and paine then the decree of diminnion . otherwise if it be taken in comparison of no sense of the one , and some sense of the other , it would follow herehence that death is to be preferred before a paine : for every man is sensitive of the one , no man is sensitive of the other . i desire no fairer way to come to an issue in this particular , then that which is here proposed by this author . he grants that some evil & pains , either for lightnes or shortnes are lesse then resolution into nothing . yet with a perhaps only as if by reason of a pain in his back , he were in doubt to resolve whether it were better for him to be turned into nothing , then to endure it . is this man yet resolved whether it be better for him to suffer martyrdome for christ , then to be ( i do not say resolved ; for as i know no composition of nothing ; so neither do i know any resolution into nothing ) turned into nothing ? ●t is not credibile : how then cōes in this parenthesis of a perhaps , was it to set a good face , upon his argumēt ? or was it because he saw the dangerous con●equence of this his concession , being direct & absolute ? for i find him more cunning then solid throughout like a crafty crowder for seing himselfe cōfesseth that some pains & sorrows are willingly to be suffered by every reasonable man , rather then that he should be turned into nothing . let us divide the latitude of pains & sorrows into a thousand degrees , if he think good : and then let him set down unto us at which degree it begins to make a mā more miserable , thē to be turned into nothing . in like manner as touching the durance of these sorrows ; if he sayth that the suffering of hell pains for an hour , for a day , for a year doth not make a mā worse , thē to be turned into nothing . let him define ūnto us where that proportiō of time in suffering hell begins , which makes a mā more miserable thē to be turned into nothing divers divines maintain that christ suffered hel pains for us : wil this author say that this made him more miserable thē to be turned into nothing ? had he suffered thē to this very day , what helhound wil dare to say it had been better for him to be turned into nothing ? if s. austin prayed , da domine quod jubes & jube quod vis . lord give me grace to do what thou cōmmādest , & thē cōmand what thou wilt . pelagius spighted austin for this . ) may we not in like māner pray lord give us grace to bear what thou layest upon us , & then lay upon us what thou wilt ? nay is it not austins profession that the punishēnt of infants dying in originall sin is mitissima & such as they thēselves would not choose to be turned into nothing , to be freed frō it ? and is it not in the power of god to give a mā strength to bear the very pains of hel & that without sin ? did not christ suffer thē without sin , even such sorrows as the greek church professed in their liturgy to be unknown sorrows , as bishop andrews sometims observed in a passiō sermō of his ? and if it be in the power of god to inable a mā to bear the pains of hel for an hour , a day , a year ; is it not in his power to enable thē to hold out in suffering thē , & that without sin for the space of ten thousand years , & that in infinitū ? again al this while this author takes no notice of the misery of sin , which arminius ( his wel beloved ) professeth to be greater thē the misery of punishēnt . and he gives his reason for it , becuse illud bono divino , hoc humano oppositū est . that is opposit to a divine , this to ā humane good ? wil he say that it is better for a mā to be turned into nothing , then to rob , steale , take the nāe of god in vain , profane the lords sabbath , to ly with another mans wife , to oppose truth against his knowledge & cōscience ? if this be his opiniō can he plead the cōmon consent of the world , or the cōmō sense of mā for this ? see by the way how he virifies the being of mā which he calls a poore little entitative good god looked upon al things that he had made , & behold they were very good , not the least fly , or ēmet , or worm is excepted frō the cōmendatio , yet mā was made after the image & likenes of god. in other creaturs are foūd vestigia dei , footsteps of god , as martin luther observes out of the antients , but mā is imago dei the very image of god ; yet this author cals it a poor little ētitative good ; & barely sayth it , & when he hath done , wipes his lipps frō al sophisticatiō , & claps that upon the back of his adversaries very authoritatively . then the question is only of miseria paenae , whether it makes a mā worse then annihilatiō , not in a cōplicate condition with sin , which is the condition of the dāned . yet thus he carrieth it to serve his turn ; whereas in arminius his opinion , the sinfull condition of the dāned , makes them more miserable then thir torments . but if the torments of hell in thēselves are able to make a man in a worse condition then to be turned into nothing , then an holy angell or saint should choose rather to be turned into nothing , thē to suffer the torēnts of hell . and the schoole divines dispute severally of the misery of sinne , and the misery of torēnt , & that with such different resolutions upon the point , as to maintaine , that albeit the misery of torment is not so bad as utter ānihilation , yet the misery of sinne , is . yet therein i willingly professe i am not of their mind . for what ? are not the children of god sinners ? now what sober christian will affirme , that it were better for them to be annihilated , then to be sinners . if you say , therefore it is not better for god's children to be annihilated then to be sinners ; because they are not only sinners , but they are in the state of grace . i proceed farther , and demand whether god's elect before their calling , being yet in the state of sin , as manasses and saul before their vocation , were better to be annihilated , then to be as they are . what if i am a sinner , yet while i have any being i may mourne for my sinne , i may serve god , i may enjoy his favour in the pardoning of my sinne , is not this a better condition then not to be , which is a condition conjunct as well with the destruction of sanctity as of sinne ? but the former argument , which he takes so much paines to enervate , he calls a sophisticall evasion , and addes that so are all others of the like sort , very magisterially and resolutely . but what those others are he doth not so much as name . not so much as one of austin's , whose discourse alone i proposed on this point ; together with an argument of durand's , neither of all which doth he touch , yet i am the marke set up by him to shoote at , not durand , not any one of the school-men , not austin whose discourses alone i proposed . and as for the argument here mentioned , melius est esse , quam non esse ; it is better to be then to have no being , therefore it is better to be in hell torment then not to be . this is neither argument , nor any of those that i proposed out of durand and austin . durand's argument is , to be annihilated is an universall destruction of man's nature , not only of his well being , but of being : but hell paines is the destruction only of his well being not of his being . neither is it answerable to the argument formerly mentioned by him p. . which was this . he that wants a being enjoyeth no good , but he that is tormented in hell hath a being , and by consequence some thing that is good . now this argument cometh nerest to maldonats discourse upon that of our saviour , speaking of iudas . it had been good for that man he had not been borne . some , saith he , dispute subtilly more then enough , how it could be better for iudas , not to have been ; whereas not to be is no good , to be damned is some good . for he that is damned is somewhat ; and every thing that is , as it hath a being , is good . and we know that man's being is no common good but a speciall one , as being made after god's owne image and likenesse . and looke with what judgment this author extenuates , being humane , calling it a poore , little entitative good ; with the same judgment he might extenuate angelicall being . for even among angells some have their portion in hell fire . but now he comes to his first proposition , that unavoidable damnation of so many millions can not be absolutely and antecedently intended by god , without the greatest injustice and cruelty . the question is of the suffering of hell paines , whether it be worse then to be annihilated ? this authour runnes upon the terme damnation , which is a civill and judiciall act . is there no difference between these ? they that say christ sufferd the paines of hell , doe they say christ was damned ? then to speake with a fuller mouth he puts in the damnation of so many millions , whereas if the damnation of one may be intended by god without injustice after what manner soever , undoubtedly the damnation of never so many millions may . then he helps himselfe with the epithite of unavoidable added to damnation , and the terme absolutely affixed to god's intention , to no purpose that i know , but to abuse himselfe and others by confusion ; for feare least the truth should break forth to their conviction . to intend damnation avoidable , what is it but to intend it conditionally . and to intend damnation not absolutely , is all one with to intend it conditionally . now to intend the damnation of any man conditionally is with this author as much , to intend his salvation as his damnation . yet this he calls the intention of damnation . and bradwardine hath long agoe maintained and demonstated by evidence of reason , that there is no conditionate will of god : and this authour will not say ( i suppose ) that god did intend that christ should suffer hell paines conditionately , or that if he did intēd it absolutely , he was unjust in so doing . now both d. iackson expresly confesseth , that the distinction of will antecedent and consequent in god ▪ is to be understood , not as touching the act of willing , but as touching the thing willed . and gerardus vossius acknowledgeth that after the same manner must the conditionate will , which is ascribed unto god , be interpreted . now we willingly confesse that the thing willed and intended by god to reprobates , namely , damnation , befalls none , but in case they dye in sinne without repentance . and as already i have shewed not any of our divines maintaine that god intended to damne any man but for sinne . only the maine point of difference between us is , as touching the conferring & denying grace , even the grace of regeneration , the grace of faith and repentance . herein we willingly confesse that god carrieth himselfe merely according to the pleasure of his own will , according to that of the apostle , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth . now on this point this authour keeps himselfe close , and earthes himselfe within his own concealements , lest he should betray the bitter leven of pelagianisme , in maintaining that grace is conferred according unto workes , which cannot be avoided by him , if once he comes to deale on this argument . he thinks he hath great advantage in the point of reprobation , and very free he is here , but declines the point of election , and point of conferring grace , which argueth a naughty disposition , practising by indirect courses to circumvent and suppresse the truth , rather then conferre any thing for the clearing of it : yet see his confused carriage in the very point . for when he speakes of damnation avoidable and unavoidable , he takes no paines to manifest in what sense he takes it to be avoidable ; as whether by power of nature , or power of grace . is it his meaning that any man's damnation is avoidable by grace ? we deny it not . or is it his meaning that it is avoidable by nature ? we utterly deny this . but this man counts it his wisedome not to speake distinctly , but worke his advantage upon confusion of things that differ ; but let all such take heed , least utter confusion be their end . but if it be his meaning that all men have power to avoid damnation if they will , to wit , in as much as they have power to beleive if they will , to repent if they will : i would he would deale fairely once , and come to this . the scripture is expresse , that they that are in the flesh cannot please god , that the naturall man discerneth not the things of god , that they are foolishnesse unto him , neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned . that , they cannot beleive , cannot repent . of the children of israel in the wildernesse that , god had not given them eyes to see , eares to heare , nor hearts to perceive fourty yeares . and truely we take faith and repentance to be the guift of god. and the habits of them not to be a power to beleive and repent if a man would , but an habituall and morall inclination of them to believe , to repent . and habits ( as it was wont to be said ) agunt ad modum naturae , doe worke after the manner of nature . and it is very strang that supernaturall grace should not . and long agoe i have learnt in austin , that to doe good , and obey god if a man will , is rather nature then grace . for the will alone is all in all as touching acts morall , good or evill ; and till the will be changed , we are as farre off as ever , from performing any thing that is pleasing in the sight of god. this is the peculiar glory of god's grace , to make us perfect to every good worke , and to worke in us that with is pleasing in his sight through iesus christ , and this he doth according to his good pleasure . for grace is not conferred according unto workes . that was condemned as a pestilent doctrine long agoe in the synod of palestine , and all along in divers councells against the pelagians . how gladly should i imbrace any delineation of this authours opinion in the point of grace and free will , the rather , because i seem to smell who he is by this which followeth . for i remember sometime under whose hand i read it ; namely , that , plutarch speaking of the pagans , who to pacifie the anger of their gods , did sacrifice to them men and women , should say , it had been much better with diagoras and his fellowes to deny the being of a god , then confessing a god , to think he delights in the blood of men . but allbeit this supercilious and confident professor be of plutarch's mind in this , i willingly professe i am not . i know no naturall reason why he should delight more or lesse in the bloud of beasts , then in the bloud of men . only it pleased him by the bloud of bulls and goats to represent the delight he took in the satisfaction made in the blood of his own sonne . we know in what errand the lord sent abraham three dayes journey , namely , to sacrifice his sonne upon mount moriah ; had not god hindred him it had been done ; abraham knew no other but that it should be done , when he answered his sonne saying , my god will provide himselfe of a burnt offering . abraham did not break forth in this man's language , to say he would rather deny there was any god , then believe he delights in bloud ; neither had he delighted in bloud , though isaak had been sacrificed , but in the obedience of his servants . nor had isaack received any losse by this . for abraham knew that god was able to raise him from the dead . did not samson sacrifice himselfe . christ was content to shed his precious bloud for us , and we by his grace shall be content to shed our bloud for him , & that according to his good will and pleasure . let heathens thus discourse who are nothing acquainted with the powers of the world to come ; but a foule shame it is for christians to comply with them . but , how much rather , saith this authour , may we say it were better to be an atheist , then to beleive or report him to be a devourer of the soules of men . yet i cannot be perswaded it is better to be an atheist then to belive even this . for i must not give ground to a confident theologue for his bare protestation sake . what is it i pray for god to be a devourer of the soules of men ? is it any other then to be a tormenter of of them in hell fire ? now doth not this man believe that god deals so with millions of soules ? doth not he professe , that , the breath of the lord as a river of brimstone doth kindle that fire ? what out recuydance hath possest the spirit of this cavaliere that he should flaunt it to the world in this manner ? it seemes his atcheivements known so well to the world have puft him up , that he swells with the conceit of it : and 't is enough for him now to brave it with protestations insteed of arguments , wherein having known him so well heretofore , i cannot but wonder at the poverty of his spirit ; he will battle so long upon his credit and reputation with the world , that it will crack at length ; and he prove bankrupt : so that protest what he will no man will trust him for a groat . now in that manuscript of his , which it was my hap sometime to have a view of , his protestation upon the book of that saying of plutarch was somewhat different , thus . i protest unto you , i think it was lesse dishonour able to the blessed trinity to say with the atheist there is no god , then to forme such a god , as the decree of reprobation maintained by the contraremonstrants , maketh him to be . this protestation though it had course in private , yet here it is changed that it might not see the light of the presse . for it is well known that this toucheth nearely a whole synod of the church reformed ; and that countenanced by king iames and divers worthy divines of this kingdome subscribing to it , some yet living , and two of them in apice episcopali , in episcopall dignity . yet what is that doctrine of the contraremonstrants that he pincheth upon ? it is well knowne that their generall tenet is that god ordaines no man to damnation but for sinne ; some difference there hath been , and is about the ordering of god's decrees , which is merely apex logicus , & what my opinion is thereabouts is well known ; namely that in no moment of time or reason doth god ordaine any man to damnation , before the consideration of sinne , more particularly thus ; that all besides the elect , god hath ordained to bring them forth into the world in their corrupt masse , and to permit them to their selves , to go on in their own waies , and so finally to persevere in sinne , and lastly to damne them for their sinne , for the manifestation of the glory of his justice on them , & of the greater mercy on the vessells of mercy , whom he hath prepared unto glory ; inasmuch as he hath of his free grace provided better for them , then for millions of others . only as touching the grace of regeneration , of faith and of repentance ; he did not only ordaine of his mere pleasure to bestow that on his elect , and not on reprobates ; but in time he doth of his mere pleasure conferre that grace on some ; denying it to others . this doctrine is so dishonourable to the trinity in this authors judgment , as that to deny there is any god at all , he thinks to be lesse dishonourable : a prodigious assertion ! we have the lesse cause to be moved , when he preferred the annihilation of our natures , before the suffering of hell paines . when he seemes to preferre the annihilating of the blessed trinity , before the renouncing of his own vile fancies . as for that of eusebius , true it is , the god 's of paynims sought only the destruction of those that served them , and that not of their bodyes but their soules also . the true god put abraham once upon the sacrificing of his son , for the tryall of his faith and obedience , but perceiving his obsequious readinesse , took a course to restraine him . of him it it is true , he saveth both man and beast , and the eyes of all doe wait upon him , and he gives them meat in due season , he heareth the cry of ravens , and not a sparrow lights upon the ground without his providence ; the very lyons roaring after their prey do seek their meat at ( the hands of ) god. yet if he be pleased to save our soules , we have reason to submit unto him in doing what he will with our bodies , which yet one day he will raise , glorious bodyes , when mortality shall be swallowed up of life . we acknowledge no other end of man's creation , and of all other divine acts of god , but his own glory . for even there where solomon professeth , god hath made even the wicked against the day of evill , he withall acknowledgeth , that both them and all things , he hath made for himselfe . god of his mere pleasure created all , but of his mere pleasure he damneth none . but every one that is damned is damned for his sin , & that willfully committed & contumaciously continued by them that come to ripe yeares . for as austin saith libertas sine gratia non est libertas , sed contumacia : liberty without grace , is not liberty , but willfullnesse or contumacy . i come to the second part of his first argument . the second part of the argument . sect. . secondly , this opinion chargeth god with mens sinnes on earth , and makes him the authour , not of the sinne only that entred by adam into the world , but of all other sinnes , that have been , are , or shall be committed to the worlds end . no murthers , robberies , rapes , adulteries , insurrections , treasons , blasphemies , persecutions , or any other abominations whatsoever fall out at any time , or in any place , but they are the necessary productions of god almightys decrees . the scripture i am sure teaches us another lesson . thou art not a god , saith david that hast pleasure in wickednesse . and the prophet esay tells the people , that when they did evill in the sight of the lord , they did choose the things which he would not . let no man say when he is tempted i am tempted of god. for god cannot be tempted with evill , neither tempteth he any man ; but every man is tempted when he is drawen away with his own concupiscence . and st. john when he had referred all the sinnes of the world to three heads , the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes , and the pride of life ; tells us that , they are not of the father , but of the world . to which speeches let me adde the speech of stracides ( though not of the same authority . ) say not thou it is through the lord that i fell away ; for thou oughtest not to do the things that he hateth . say not thou he hath caused me to erre ; for he hath no need of the sinfull man. . pious antiquity hath constantly sayd the same , and prest it with sundry reasons ; some of which are these as follow . if god be the authour of sinne , then he is worse then the devill ; because the devill doth only tempt and perswade to sinne , and his action may be resisted , but god , by this opinion , doth will and procure by a powerfull and effectuall decree , which cannot be resisted . this is prospers argument , who to some objecting that by st. austin's doctrine , when fathers defile their own daughters , and mothers their own sonnes , servants murther their masters , & men commit any horrible villanies , it cometh to passe because god hath so decreed . answereth that if this were layd to the devills charge , he might in some sort cleare himselfe of the imputation . quia etsi delectatus est furore peccantium , probaret tamen sc non intulisse vim criminum . because though he be delighted with man's sinnes yet he doth not , he cannot compell men to sinne : what a madnesse therefore is it to impute that to god which cannot be justly fathered upon the divell . . he cannot be a punisher of sinne : for none can justly punish those effences of which they are the authors . this is prospers argument too . it is against reason to say that he wich is the damner of the devill would have any one to be the devills servant . this reason fulgentius useth likewise illius rei deus ultor est , cujus auhor non est . tertullian also before them hath sayd . he is not to be accounted the author of sinne , who is the forbidder yea and the condemner of it . . he cannot be god , because he should not be just , nor holy , nor the judge of the world , all properties essentiall to god. and this is basil's reason , who hath written a whole homily against this wicked assertion . it is all one ( saith he ) to say that god is the author of sinne , and to say he is not god. upon these and the like considerations i may well conclude , that , the opinion which chargeth god with the sinnes of men , is neither good nor true . it is first layd to the charg of our divines that by this their opinion , they make god the authour of sinne ; not of the first only that entred by adam into the world , but of all other sinnes , that have been , are , or shall be committed in the world , as murthers , robberies , rapes , adulteries , insurrections , treasons , blasphemies , heresies , persecutions , or any other abominatiōs . but in all these wastfull discourses not a word of proofe . the charge is made in the first place , the proofe last . all that he labours to prove here is , that god is not the author of sinne . bellarmine hath bestowed , or rather cast away a whole book on this crimination , to him arminius referrs perkins , telling him that he should have answered bellarmine . i have taken some paines to performe that taske upon that motion of arminius . i would i could receive from this authour a reply to any materiall particular thereof , the rather because i understand in part his zeale for bellarmine in his age , correcting the harsh exceptions he hath made against him in his younger dayes . and let every indifferent reader compare this authors discourse , with that discourse of bellarmine , and judge indifferently what an hungry peece this is in comparison to that of bellarmines ; and whether his paines had not been better bestowed in replying upō my answer thereunto , then to adde such scraps as these to that full table of bellarmin's provision ; and whether these deserve any answer , that whole discourse of bellarmine being refuted throughout . bradwardine disputes the question , si & quomodo deus vult & non vult peccatum . i say he disputes it indifferently on both sides ; and let every schollar judge and weigh , whether it be not a very ponderous argument , and consider well his resolution , and where he differrs any thing from our divines in this calvin observing how frequent the scripture is in testifying god's hand to be operative in abominable courses , thereupon writes a treatise . de occultâ dei providentiâ in malo ; in all which he exactly conformes himselfe to scripture expressions . and these and such like vile criminators may as well taxe god's word for making god the author of sinne , as calvin ; who most accurately conformes himselfe to the testimonies of divine scripture . i remember to have heard a disputation sometimes at heidelberge on this argument , where copenius the president or moderator made manifest , that look upon what grounds they criminated calvin for making god the authour of sinne ; upon the same grounds they might criminate the very word of god to make him the author of sinne . for calvine throughout in his expressions conformes himselfe to the language of the holy ghost . yet , what one of our divines can he produce , affirming that , god takes pleasure in sinne . piscator confesseth that , god taketh no pleasure in the death of him that dyeth , upon that place in ezechiel ; how much lesse in wickednesse . and he illustrates it in this manner : for albeit it cannot be denyed , but that god willeth the death of him that dyeth . for he is the god to whom vengeance belongeth ; yet he takes no pleasure in it . like as a sick-man would be content to take a bitter potion for the recovery of his health ; yet he takes no pleasure in that bitter cup. and in like manner , albeit , god hardened pharaoh's heart that he should not let israel goe ; and as the apostle speaks , hardeneth whom he will. whereby it comes to passe infallibly that they doe not obey the gospell , as appeareth by the objection following . why then doth he complaine . for who hath resisted his will ? and albeit the saints of god expostulate with him in this manner ; why hast thou caused us to erre from thy wayes , and hardened our hearts against thy feare ? yet we know that god takes no pleasure in disobedience , or in the hardnesse of any mans heart , nor can be the authour of evill , with sir francis bacons distinction in the booke formerly mentioned by this authour . non quià non author , sed quià non mali . so that albeit he hardens whom he will unto disobedience , & in the prophet esayes phrase causeth men to erre from his wayes . yet the lord himselfe we know is righteous in all his wayes , & holy in all his workes , though we are not able to dive into the gulfe , and search out the bottome of his judgments , and no marvaile . for they are unsearchable ; yet we make no question but through gods mercy convenient satisfaction may be found without any such shāefull course of dismēbring scripture , and taking notice only of such passages as represent gods displeasure against sin & sinners , and dissembling all other passages which drave austin to confesse , occulto dei judicio , by the secret judgement of god , fieri perversitatem cordis , the perversity of mans heart hath its course , much lesse by setting thē together by the eares . and i nothing doubt but the issue will be on the part of such , as are of this authours spirit , either wholly to deny originall sin , or so to emasculate the vigor of it , as to professe that it is in the power of mā to cure it ; or notwithstāding the strength of it , to beleive & repēt if he will ; which though they pretēd to be wrought by a certain universal grace ; yet i nothing doubt but we shall be able to prove that such a power is mere nature and no grace . be it so that wicked men in their wicked courses do chose the things that god would not , who would thinke that this author , who makes such a florish should content himselfe with such beggarly arguments ; or that the world should be so simple as to be terrifyed with such scar-crowes ? for is it not apparent that in scripture phrase there is voluntas praecepti , a will of commandement , as well as voluntas propositi , a will signifying gods purpose and decree ? so thē though they chuse the things that god willed not in reference to his will of commandement ; yet it might be gods will , that is his purpose that even such sinnes should come to passe . for was it not the will of god that pharaoh should not let israel goe for a while ? did he not harden him to this purpose that so he might make himselfe knowne in the land of egypt by his judgemēts ? & did he not reveale this to moses to the cōfort of the childrē of israel , & keepe thē from despaire in contēplation of the obstinacy of pharaoh's spirit , when they were assured that god had an hād in hardening pharaoh to stād out ? and doth not bellarmine professe that malū fieri permitt sin & deo bonū est , it is good that evill should cō to passe by gods permission ? and shall it be unbecōing the divine nature to will that which is good ? and where is it that bellarmine affirmeth this ? even there where he opposeth the same doctrine of ours which this authour doth . but with more learning an fold then this authour betrayeth , and withall carryeth himselfe with farre more ingenuity . for he takes notice of those places of scripture whereupon our divines do build , and accommodates himselfe to aswer them by some intepretation that he thinks good to make of them , which this authour doth not . but what if there be no such text as this authour builds upon ? for looke what the word is , used in the originall ps . . . the same is used es . now that in ps . . this authour renders not that wouldest not iniquity , but that hast no pleasure in iniquity and why then shall not that es . . . be accordingly rendred thus . they choose the things wherein i had no pleasure , or wherein i had no delight , and not as he expresseth it the things that i would not . hereupon i imagined our enlish tranlation had thus rendred it , but consulting that , i found the contrary . for thus they render it . they choose the things wherein i delighted not . it is true the geneva renders it thus : but doth it become him to preferre and follow the geneva translation before the last and most authenticall translation of the church of england ? in like manner the practise of geneva must be of authority to cry us downe in the point of the morality of the fourth commandement . were not the man well knowne to be sound at heart , his favourites might well suspect him to praevaricate , in making so great a cry , and yet yeilding so little wooll . in the next place he alleadgeth that of iames. let no man say when he is tempted that he is temptedof god. for god tempteth no man : but every man is tempted , when he is drawen away with his owne concupiscence now peter martyr on the first to the romans deales at large upon this place , and disputes strangely indiscoursing of gods providence in evill . i would this authour had taken the paines to answer him at least , that he might performe somewhat tanto dignum hiatu , worthy of the great gaping he makes . it is true bellarmine hath taken him to taske after a sort in his eigth chapter of his second book de amiss . gratiae & statu peccati . and i have replyed upon bellarmine at large in my vindiciae , in that large digression wherein i take bellarmine to taske in that book of his , whereunto i referre the reader . yet to say somewhat of this place befor i passe . it is apparent that the apostle in this place doth not so put off from god the workes of tempting as to cast it upon satan ; but onely so as to shew , that whatsoever the divine providence is there about , either by the ministry of satan ( who is god's minister in hardening men to precip●tate courses ( i kings the last ) or otherwise , yet still the sinner is unexcusable ; for as much as he is then only tempted ( effectually ) for so it is to be understood ; otherwise it were not true , as it appeares in the case of joseph tempted by his mistris ) when he is drawen away by his own concupiscence . it is true , the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes , and pride of life is not of the father but of the world , they are the members of that body of sin which we brought with us into the world . this is propagated unto us all by naturall generation . holy iacob the son of holy isaak a patriach , & of holy rebeccah a prophetesse was borne in sin as well as esau ; and seth as well as cain , and this seemeth to be called the image of adam , after his fall behold i was shapen in wickednesse , sayth david , and in sin hath my mother conceived me . and except a man be borne againe he cannot see the kingdome of god. this , though a mystery , yet is nothing strange to us , whom god in mercy hath reserved unto these times or grace ; but it was very strange to nicodemus a ruler in israel . this hath been the condition of man ever since the fall of adam ; and arising merely from the withdrawing of god's spirit from him , and that most justly upon their first sin in tasting of the forbidden fruit . so that even this condition proceeded originally , as from the sin of our first parents in the way of a meritorious cause , so from the just judgment of god taking his holy spirit from him , which god was not bound to doe , as appeares by this , that by vertue of the covenant of grace which he hath made with us in christ , he doth not take his spirit from us , though too often we sin againsthim . no not from david , notwithstanding those foule sinnes committed by him , at appeares by his prayer unto god ; that , he would restore him to the joy of his salvation , signifying therereby that he had lost that . and that god would not take his holy spirit from him , manifesting hereby that still he retained that . and considering that god proceeded with adam herein in the way of judgment , austine acknowledgeth concupiscence to be a punishment of sinne , as well as sin , and a cause of other sinnes , in his fifth book against iulian the pelagian cap. as for that of siracides , say not thou , god hath caused me to erre . as it is true that no man must cast the blame of sinning upon god , & think himselfe blamelesse : so it is as true that in consideratiō of our own inability to stād of our selves & prones to fall ( evē to fall away like water spilt upō the ground that cannot be recovered ; containe it selfe it cannot , but it may easily becontained ) the church doth sometimes expostulate with god ( such is the liberty and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which he vouchsafeth unto his children ) in an holy manner saying , wherefore hast thou caused us to erre from thy waies , and hardened our hearts against thy feare ; not that this he doth , infundendo malitiam , by infusing malice into them but , non infundendo gratiam , by not infusing such grace into them as to preserve them from sin for as martha said unto iesus , lord if thou had'st been here our brother lazarus had not dyed . so may we say if the strēgth of thy grace had been operative in us , we had not sined in this or that particular . it is true god hath not need of the sinfull ma : much lesse of his salvation or damnation . but if he will of mere pleasure manifest his own glory , either in the way of mercy pardoning , or of justice punishing , he must permit sin to enter into the world , & forbeare that providence whereby , as he did keep the elect angells , so he might have kept man also from sinning . as for the reasons of p●o●s antiquity to prove that god cannot be the authour of sin , they are very needelesse in this controversy between us & our adversaries , the question between us not being thereabouts , but rather about the manner of god's providence . our adversaries so denying him to be the author of evill , as withall they deny him to be the authour of any good in the actions of men . we on the contrary take care , so to maintaine that god is not the author of sinne , that withall we maintaine that he is the author of all good , both morall and naturall , and much more supernaturall . yet as i have considered the seven reasons of bellarmine to this purpose collected out of the antients ; so i am content to take into consideration the three reasons produced by this author . . as touching the first to manifest how superficiarily and absurdly he carieth himselfe therein , observe the wildnesse of his reasoning besides all rules of sobriety . if god ( sayth he ) be the author of sinne , then he is worse then the devill , because the devill doth only tempt and perswade to sinne , and his action may be resisted . let all the universities of the world be judge between us of the shamefull irregularity of this discourse . his syllogisme is hypotheticall ; for the first proposition is hypotheticall and conditionall . now all such syllogismes by the rule of all schooles must proceed either from the negation of the consequent , to the negation of the antecedent ; or from the affirmation of the antecedent , to the affirmation of the consequent ; but no such processe is made here . and indeed it should be framed thus to inferre the proposition undertaken to be proved . if god be the authour of sin , then he is worse then the divell ; but god is not worse then the divell ; therefore he is not the authour of sin . but this authour disputes after no such manner . but his affection carrying him all along to cast some foule aspersion on our doctrine in some particular or other , and being withall in heat of passion , he doth most shamefully involve and entangle himselfe and indeed quite besides his present purpose , he aimes only at this to prove that our doctrine concerning god's powerfull and effectuall decree , doth more make god the authour of sin then the devill , which is utterly aliene from that he proposed in this place . yet i am willing to doe him this favour , to help a lame dogge over the stile , and to expedite him in this argument , whereof he cannot so dext'rously deliver himselfe though quite besides the purpose . thus therefore the argument should proceed according to his irregular intention . if god doth will and procure sins by a powerfull and effectuall decree , which cannot be resisted , then is god worse then the devill . but by the doctrine of our divines god doth will and procure sins by a powerfull and effectuall decree which cannot be resisted ; therefore by the doctrine of our divines , god is worse then the devill . thus have i endeavoured to bring this argument to some shape , which had no tolerable proportion before . now let me shew the corrupt nature of it , that the reader may discerne what spirit he breathes , that is the authour of it in a mixture both of ignorance and abominable profanenes . and first i begin with the major proposition . and here first let the reader judge whether it be not this authours opinion , that , god doth will and procure sin by some decree , though not by a powerfull and effectuall decree that cannot be resisted . for otherwise did he acknowledge every will of god as it signifies his decree , to be powerfull , and effctuall and irresistable , what need he cumber his reader with such unnecessary epithites , cast in like lumber only to trouble the course of disputation ? now if he grants that god doth will and decree sin by a powerfull and effectuall decree . . he must contradict himselfe . for formerly he cited , es . . , to prove that men in wicked courses , doe choose the things that god would not . . if god doth will it , but not by a powerfull and effectuall , & irresistable decree , let him shew what that decree is , whereby he wills sins . now this is commonly accounted a decree conditionall ; and let him speak plainely then & tell us upon what condition it is that god doth will and procure sin in the world , and i am verily perswaded he is to seek what to answer . . if god doth will and decree it , it cannot be avoided , but it must be , by a powerfull and effectuall decree which cannot be resisted ; seeing the apostle saith plainly speaking of his decree , that it cannot be resisted . upon these considerations i am perswaded , that this authour doth utterly deny that god doth at all will sin , or decree that any such thing shall come to passe in the world , & that these attributes of powerfull , and effectuall , & irresistable , are used by him not for distinction sake , but meerly for amplification , that so he might speake with a full mouth . now having brought this authour home to himselfe , and delivering himselfe and his meaning plainely , i am very willing to cope with him on this point . yet what need i , having so fully disputed the point in a certaine digression in my vindiciae lib. . digrees . . the title whereof is this , whether the holy one of israel without any blot to his majesty may be said to will sin . and forthwith i answer , that , god may be said thus farre to will sin , in as much as he will have sin to come to passe . and for explication sake it is added , that whereas god will have all the good things of the world , whether naturall , morall , or spirituall come to passe by his working of them : only evill things he will have come to passe by his permitting them . but this authour affects to worke upon the ignorant ; and he doth not affect to trouble their braines with answering my reasons , least thereby he should raise many spirits , and afterwards prove unable to lay them . and this discourse of m. hord's some of that sect thought good to have it coppied out , and communicated to people in the country , as accommodated to their capacities , and so more fit to promote their edificatiō in the plausible way of arminian religion : well therefore in the proofe of this tenet , namely , that god will have sin come to passe by his permission . i prove first by scripture . god hath put in their hearts ( that is in the hearts of the kings ) to fulfill his will. now marke what is the object of god's will , in the words following , and to agree , and give their kingdōes unto the beast untill the words of god shall be fulfilled : now by giving their kingdomes unto the beast , is not to depose or dethrone themselves , or to part with their kingdomes , but only to submit their regall authority to the executiō of the beasts wrath against the saints of god. like as in the dayes of popery , when the saints of god were by popish prelates condemned for heresies , then they were delivered into the hands of the secular powers , the sherifes to burne thē at a stake . now this the holy ghost makes the object of gods will , and their agreement thus to execute the popes antichristian pleasure is said to be gods worke . for god is said to put it into their hearts to doe this evill of his . of disobedient persons the apostle professeth that they are ordained to stūble at gods word , wherein undoubtedly they sin . paul likewise testified of some that god sends thē strong delusions , that they should beleive a lye . of others that god gave them up to uncleanes through the lusts of their owne hearts to dishonour their owne bodyes betweene thēselves . and to a reprobate mind , to do those things which are not convenient . now let every sober man judge whether when god blinded the eyes of the one and hardned the harts of the other , it were not his will , that those foule things which were committed by them should come to passe by his permissiō . then consider what the apostles with one consent testifie concerning those abominable acts committed against the holy son of god , namely that both herod & pontius pilate with the gentiles & people of israel , were gathered together to doe what gods hand & his coūsell had before determined to be done . this the apostles deliver to the very face of god in their prayers & holy meditatiōs . and let every christian consider , whether it the scripture had not made mention of this , & any one of us had used the like prayer & meditatiō , this author & all that are of his spirit , would not have beene ready to spit in our faces & cry us downe for notorious blasphemers . yet the apostles indued with the spirit of god feared not to be found guilty of violating the lords holinesse in all this . hence i proceeded to the passages of the old testament for the confirmation of the same truth . as namely that whereas the desolatiō of the holy land begun by the assyrians , finished by the babylonians , could not cōe to passe without many enormous sins . who can deny , that it was gods will that these things should come to passe , considering that assur himself is acknowledged by god to be the rod of his wrath and the staffe of his indignation , whom god would send against an hypocriticall nation , & against the people of his wrath would he give him a charge to take the spoyle , & to take the prey , & to tread them downe like the mire in the streets ? hence i proceeded to shew how that it is gods usuall course to punish sin with sin . now when god exerciseth his judgments , shall not those things justly be said to come to passe by his will , which are punishments of foregoing sinnes ? see the judgment of god denounced against amaziah the preist of bethell . thou sayst prophecy not against israel , & drop not thy word against the house of isaac . therefore thus saith the lord , thy wife shall be an harlot in the citties , & thy sons & thy daughters shall fall by the sword . and in like manner solomon saith the mouth of a strange woman is a deep pit , he that is abhorred of the lordshall fall therein . the incest of absolom defiling his fathers cōcubines in a shameles manner , came it not to passe by the will of god , whose word is this ; behold i will raise up evill against thee , out of thine owne house , & i will take thy wives before thine eyes , & give them unto thy neighbour , & he shall ly with thy wives in the sight of this sun ? the defection of the ten tribes frō the house of david , came it not to passe by the will of god , when god himselfe testifies that it was his worke , & not his will onely ? thus saith the lord the god of israel , i will rent the kingdome out of the hands of solomon , & give ten tribes to thee , speaking to ieroboam ; here we have gods will for it . and againe the word of god came to semaiah the man of god saying , speak to rehoboā the son of solomon king of iudah , & unto all the house of iudah & benjamin , & to the remnant of the people , saying , thus saith the lotd , ye shall not goe up , nor fight against your brethren , the children ef israel ; returne every man to his house ; for this thing is from me . here we have gods word for it . who can deny that the hardening of pharohs heart , that he should not let israel go ; the selling of ioseph into egypt by the hands of his unnaturall brethren came to passe by the will of god ? i proceed to prove the same truth by evidence of reasō . first because god permits sin to come to passe as all confesse , though he could hinder it , if it pleased him , & that without all detriment to the free will of the creature why then doth he permit it ? but because he would have it come to passe , & accordingly permission is reckoned up by schoole divines amongst the sinnes of gods will , like as allso is gods commandment . now what god commandeth if it be done , it is said to come to passe by the will of god , albeit the things that god commandeth , seldome ; the things he permits , allwayes come to passe ; according to the common tenet of divines , even vostius & arminius not excepted . againe it is the common opinion of all , that therefore god permits sin , because he can and will worke good of it , which plainly supposeth that sinne shall come to passe if god permits it , & consequently it must needes be the will of god , it shall come to passe . thirdly it is granted on both sides that the act of sin is gods worke in the way of an efficient cause , not the outward act onely which is naturall , but the inward act of the will which is morall , even this as an act is the worke of god : how can it be then but the deformity and vitiousnesse of the act , must come to passe god willing it , though not working it , considering that the deformity doth necessarily follow the act , in reference to the creatures working it , though not in respect of gods working it ? lastly all sides agree that god can give effectuall grace , whereby a man shall be preserved from sin infallibly . wherefore as often as god will not give this grace which is in his power to give , doth it not manifestly follow that he will not have such a man preserved frō sin ? to these i added the testimony of divers ; as that of austin . not any thing comes to passe , unlesse good will have it come to passe , either by suffering it to come to passe , or himselfe working it . if good he workes it , if evill permits it , 't is true of each that he wills it . & cap. . it is good , saith austin , that evill should come to passe . and bellarmine himselfe so farre subscribes hereunto , as by professing that it is good that evills shoul come to passe by gods permission . the same austin confesseth that the perversity of the heart comes to passe by the secret judgment of god and againe that after a wonderfull and unspeakable manner , even those things which are committed against the will of god ( to wit against the will of his commandment ) do not come to passe besides the will of god ; to wit the will of his purpose . anselme the most ancient of schoole divines in his booke of the concord of foreknowledge with free will ; considering saith he , that what god willeth cannot but be when he wills , that the will of mā shall not be constrained by any necessity to will or no ; and withall will have an effect follow the will of man. in this case it must needs be that the will of man is free , and that also which god willeth shall come to passe , to wit by that will of man. now observe what in the next place he concludeth hence in these cases therefore it is true that the worke of sin , which man will doe , must needs be , though man doth not will it of necessity . and in his concord of predestination and free will. in good things god doth worke , both that they are , and that they are good , in evill things he workes onely that they are , not that they are evill . hugo de sancto victore . de sacr . . p. . when we say god willeth that which is good , it sounds well ; but if we say god willeth evill it is harsh to eares , neither doth a pious mind admit of the good god , that he willeth evill , for hereby he thinkes the meaning is that god loves and approves of that which is evill , & therefore the pious mind abhorres it , not because that which is said is not well said , but because that which is well said is not well understood . to these i adde the testimony of bradwardine at large . a man reputed so pious in those dayes , that the kings prospe ous successe in those dayes was cheifly imputed unto his piety ; who followed him in his warres in france as preacher in the camp . in the last place i make answer to the sophisticall arguments of aquinas and durandus , and the frothy disputation of valentianus , all of them standing to maintaine the contrary . now let every sober christian judge of this authors proposition , when he saith that if god doth will and procure sin &c. he is worse then the devill . for i have made it evident by variety of scripture testimonyes , by reason , and also with the concurrence of diverse learned divines ; that it is gods will that sin should come to passe , even the horrible outrages committed against the holy sonne of god were before determined by gods hand and counsell . now what followes herehence by this authours dicourse ; but that the holy apostles yea and the spirit of god do make god worse then the devill . so little cause have we to be impatient , when such horrible blasphemyes are layd to our charge , when we consider what honourable compartners we have in these our sufferings . yet see the vanity of this consequence represented most evidently ; for albeit the will of gods decree be powerfull & effectuall and irresistable , and consequently every thing decreed thereby shall come to passe powerfully , effectually , irresistibly , yet this respects onely the generality of the things eveniency , not the manner how for onely things necessary shall by this irresistible wil of god , come to passe necessarily : but as for contingent things , they by the same irresistable will of god shall come to passe also ; but how ? not necessarily but contingently ; that is with a possibility of not comming to passe . now the free actions of men are one sort of contingent things they therefore shall infallibly come to passe also by vertue of gods irresistible will ; but how ? not necessarily but contingently , that is with a possibility of not coming to passe in generall as they are things contingent : and in speciall they shall come to passe not contingently onely but freely also ; that is with a free power in the agents by whom they are acted to doe otherwise . yet there is another difference according to the morall condition of these actions for if they are good and so farre as they are goood they come to passe by gods working of them , but if they are evill , and so farre as they are evill they come to passe onely by gods permitting ; according to that of austin . non aliquid sit nisi omnipotēs fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo . not any thing comes to passe , but god willing it either by suffering it ( to wit in case it be evill ) or himselfe working it ( to wit in case it be good . ) and according to that eleventh article of religion agreed upon by the arch-bishop , and bishops , and the rest of the clergy in ireland , which is this ; god from all eternity did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine whatsoever should come to passe in time ; yet so as thereby no violence is offered to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty nor the contingency of the second causes is taken away but established rather . farther consider it is confessed by all , that god concurres in producing the act of sinne , as an efficient cause thereof not morall , but naturall . and aquinas himselfe , though he denyes that , voluntas dei est malorum , because indeed as hugo de sancto victore observes by the will of god is commonly understood in this case voluntas approbans ; his will approving it , and loving it . and so it is justly denyed that god doth will evill things , speaking of the evill of sinne . yet aquinas professeth , and disputes and proves that actus peccati est a deo , the act of sinne is from god. like as the act of walking is from the soule , though the lamenes in walking ariseth from some disease in the legge . now the devill concurres not in this manner to any act of sin ; neither is the efficient cause thereof in the kinde of a naturall efficient , but onely morall by tempting and perswading . what therefore ? shall we conclude as this authour doth without feare or witt or honesty , that by the confession of all men god is hereby made worse then the devill ? to what abominable courses do the wilde witts and profane hearts of these men expose them ? the greatest works of satan in moving men to sin are comprehended under blinding and hardening of them . now these operations are also attributed to god. and like enough he doth usually performe them , not by the ministry of his holy angells , but by the ministry of satan and his angells of darkenesse , as we read . . kings . v. . . . ioh : . . acts . . what then shall the devill so farre possesse our hearts as to break forth into such intolerable blasphemyes as to conclude hereupon that god is bad , or worse then the devill . the providence of god i willingly confesse is wonderfull , and mysterious in this , like unto the nature of god , to be adored rather then pryed into . so this providence to be dreaded rather then for satisfaction to every wanton and wild witt to be searched into . yet all confesse that the lord could hinder all this if it pleased him , and rebuke satan and restraine the power , and stop the course of sin , and prevent occasions leading thereunto , but he will not , and why ? but because he knowes it becomes his allmighty power and wisdome infinite , rather exmalis bene facere , quàm malum esse non sinere , to worke good out of evill , then not at all to suffer evill . lastly what meanes this authour to carry himselfe so as to betray so strange ignorance in mitigating satans operation in tempting unto sin ; as if this were not sufficient to make him the authour of sin . especially considering the reason that moves him hereunto , which is meerely the delight that he takes in dishonouring god , and being a desperate spirit himselfe to make as many as he can partakers of the same desperate condition . for cupiunt perditi perdere , sayth cyprian , cum sint ipsi paenales , quaerunt sibi ad poenam comites ; being damned themselves they desire to damne as many as they can : and being bound in chaines and kept to the judgement of the great day , they desire to have as many companions as they can in drinking of that cup of trembling , and sucking the very dreggs of that cup of trembling and wringing them out . for as the historian observes . maligna est calamitas , & cum suo supplicio crucietur , acquiescit alieno ; calamity makes a man of a spightfull nature , and when himselfe is tormented , he takes content in this that others suffer with him . and as the oratour observes , nullum adversarium magis metuas , quàm qui non potest vivere , potest occidere . no adversary more to be feared , then he who cannot live himselfe , yet can kill another . this makes a coward resolute ; when he must needs dye , he will fight like a mad man , and kill all he can . i say what meanes this authour to carry the matter hand over head , as if it were without question ; that he is not the authour of sinne ; who onely is a morall cause thereof , but rather he that is the naturall efficient : whereas great divines carry it to the contrary . as namely dominicus soto in his first booke of nature and grace chap : . although ( sayth he ) there are many that thinke it hard to explicate , how in the hatred of god , which hath an inward and indivisible malignity , god can be the cause of the entity , but not of the fault : yet this is not so hard to be understood . then he proceeds to shew how this may be . first laying for his ground what it is to be the cause of sinne , thus ; in morall actions he is altogether , and is judged to be the cause , who by a law , or help , or counsell or favour or perswasion moves any one either to good or evill . observe i pray the doctrine of this school-divine directly contrary to that which this authour supposeth without all proofe . for in the judgement of dominicus soto , he onely is to be accounted the cause of another mans sinne , who is the morall cause thereof , as by tempting , counselling , perswading thereunto , and upon this ground he proceeds to free god from being the authour of it after this manner . but as for god he by all these wayes moves his creatures to that which is good and honest , and none at all to evill . neither is the doctrine of dominicus soto alone ; but the common doctrine of the divines of salamancha , as molina confesseth in his disputation . and albeit molina the jesuite were of another opinion . yet vasquius the jesuite professeth that he was ever of the same minde with dominicus soto and the divines of salamancha in this ; in his disputation upon the first part of his summes . as for prosper he hath no such argument . but first observe the objection whereunto he answereth , was made against the doctrine of austin ; as the authour acknowledgeth . whence it followeth that looke how this authour chargeth our doctrine , after the same manner was the doctrine of austin charged above yeares agoe ; let the indifferent hereby take notice of the congruity of our doctrine with the doctrine of austin in this particular , and the congruity of this authours spirit in charging us with the spirit of the semipelagians in charging austin after the same manner . secondly consider the objection there made t' is this . quod quando incestant patres filias , & matres filios ; vel quando servi dominos occidunt ideo fiat , quia ita deus predestinavit , ut fieret . when father commit incest with their daughters , and mothers with their sonnes . or when servants kill their lords ; therefore this comes to passe , because god hath so predestinated that it should come to passe . consider , in this objection the fault of these abominable courses is not layd upon those that commit them , but onely upon god ; as if gods predestination did worke in such a manner , as to compell men or women to commit such and such abominations . and so prosper conceives the argument to proceed , as if this were their intention . and accordingly makes answer . si diabolo objiceretur quòd talium facinorum ipse author , ipse esset incentor , were it objected to the devill that he were the authour of such sinnes , and did inflame men to the committing of them ( which indeed is the devills course and not gods ) yet i thinke , sayth he , that the devill might in some sort disburthen himselfe of this crimination , & talium scelerum patratores de ipsorum voluntate vinceret , and make it appeare that their owne wills were the committers of such sinnes . quia etsi delectatus est furore peccantium , probaret tamen se non intulisse vim criminum . because though he tooke pleasure in the fury of sinners , yet might he justifie that he forced no man to sinne . after the same manner proceeded the . objection of the galles ; quod per potentiam deus homines ad peccata compellit , god by his power compells men to sin . and as touching the notion of predestination it is true the antients used that onely in reference to those thinges which were wrought by god. nihil ergo talium ( to wit of wicked actions ) negotiorum deus predestinavit ut fieret . predestination being onely of such things , which come to passe by gods working of them . yet the same austin professeth that such things which come to passe by gods permission ( of which kind are all manner of sinnes ) even those came to passe god willing thē , though not by gods predestinating of them . and as touching senacherib who was slaine by his owne sonnes ; the lord professeth saying , i will cause him to fall by the sword in his owne land . and upon amaziah the priest of bethel the judgment was pronounced from the lord , thy wife shall be an harlot and whatsoever comes to passe it is gods will it should come to passe , sayth austin , how much more that which comes to passe in the way of judgment . i come to his second reason to examine whether he carryeth himselfe any thing more handsomly in that . if god be the authour of sinne he cannot be the punisher of sin . this argument is better shaped then the former ; but forthwith he tells us that he cannot be in justice the punisher of that whereof himselfe is the authour . wherein are two particulars neither of which were expressed in his argument , the one is the application of it to the same sinne whereof he was the authour , which was not expressed in the argument . and without this application the argument is of no force . for earthly magistrates are sinners , yet the punishers of sinne in others , yea of the same kind of sinne . as though a magistrate be a profaner of the name of god , yet he may execute the law on them who doe profane the name of god , and that justly . then what is it that makes a man the author of sinne ? it is well knowne , that though it be unlawfull for a man to permit sinne , if it be in his power to hinder it , yet unlesse god permit sinne , it cannot be committed by any , nos certe , saith austin , sieos in quos nobis potestas est ante oculos nostros perpetrare scelera permittamus , rei cum ipsis erimus . quam vero innumerabilia ille permitit fieri ante oculos suos , quae utique si voluisset nullâ ratione permitteret . certainely if we suffer those , over whom we have power , to commit sinne , we shall be guilty together with them . but how innumerable are the sinnes which he suffers to be committed before his eyes , which if he would , he could hinder , so that by no meanes they should cōe to passe . or is he the authour of sinne who is the efficient cause of the act of sinne ? it is aquinas his doctrine , that , the act of sinne is from god , and that in the kind of an efficient cause ; and it is commonly received to be the first cause in the kind of efficients , subordinate to none , and all other subordinate to him . nay more then this scotus professeth , and after him the dominicans , that , god determineth the will to every act thereof ( though sinfull ) as touching the substance thereof , but how ? surely no otherwise then to come to passe agreeably to their nature ; necessary acts necessarily , free acts freely . so barwardine maintaines that god necessitates the will of the creatue ; but how ? to performe acts thereof freely . suppose they did maintaine that god in his omnipotency did impose a necessity upon our wills , as suarez imputes to our divines that they so teach . yet in this case suarez the jesuite will justifie them , that therein they deliver nothing that either doth include contradiction , or that doth exceed god's omnipotency . neither did i ever meet any colour of reason , why god might not as wholy determine the will to any free act thereof , as concurre with the will to the producing of the same act . and that in the concurrence of god and man to the same act , the first cause should be in subordination to the second ; or the second cause not in subordination to the first , is against all reason , and obnoxious to manifold contradiction , as i have shewed in my vindiciae . whereas for god to move a creature to every act of his congruously to his nature , and so to determine him , is most agreeable to reason , and nothing at all obnoxious to contradiction . and yet notwithstanding i see noe sufficient reason to conclude these determinations , as touching things naturall , such as is the substance of every naturall act , there being a power to performe that in a naturall agent . of supernaturall acts the case is different . it seemes to me enough , that god will have this or that evill come to passe by his permission . for when god created the world out of nothing ; what transient action of god can be imagined , when there was no matter at all for any such transient action to worke upon ; god's will was sufficient to have that to exist which before had no being : and why may not the will of god be sufficient for the existence of the motion of each creature after it hath existence ? but supposing these determinations of the creatures wills to be necessary , if god will not determine them to good what will follow herence ? surely nothing but evill ; unlesse man can determine himselfe to that which is good without god. for as for simple concurrence without subordination in working , as i said before , that cannot be affirmed without palpable and grosse contradiction , as i have proved in the digression formerly mentioned , proceed we yet farther . i know nothing doth more intimately concerne god's secret providence in evill , then the hardning of the creature to disobedience . now the scripture which is the very word of god , and the dictates of the holy ghost doth plainly and expressely teach , that albeit god commanded pharaoh to let israell goe , yet withall he hardened his heart that he should not let israell goe for a long time , which refusall of his was wilfull and presumptuous disobedience . in like sort as touching obedience and disobedience to the gospell , the apostle tells us plainly that , god hath mercy on whom he will , to performe the one , and whom he will he hardeneth , thereby exposing them to the other . and hereupon this objection is made , why then doth god complaine ( to wit , of man's disobedience ) for who hath resisted his will ? and we know what answer the apostle makes hereunto . o man who art thou that disputest with god ? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power of the clay of the same lump to make one vessell unto honour , another unto dishonour ? now will any sober christian conclude herehence that because , god hardned pharaoh that he should not let israell goe , therefore he is the authour of sinne . the lord hath bid shimei to curse david . consider what austine writes upon this . quomodo dixerit dominus huic homini maledicere david , quis sapiens & intelliget ? non enim jubendo dixit , ubi obedientia laudaretur ; sed quod ejus voluntatem proprio vitio suo malam , in hoc peccatum judicio suo justo & occulto inclinarit , ideo dictum est , dixit ei dominus . how said the lord to this man that he should curse david ; who is wise and he shall understand ? for he said this not by commanding shimei so to doe , in which case his obedience had been commanded ; but in as much as shimei's will through his own vitiousnesse being evill , the lord inclined it to this sinne by his just and secret judgment . thus saith he , the lord useth the hearts of the wicked to the praise and benefit of the good : so he used iudas betraying christ : so he made use of the jewes crucifying christ . and how great good did he procure therehence to all believers ? who also useth the divell who is worst of all , yet he makes best use of him to exercise and prove the faith and piety of the godly . so he wrought in the heart of absalom to refuse the counsell of achitophell , and make choice of that counsell which was nothing profitable . who may not well tremble in the contemplation of those divine judgments , whereby the lord workes in the hearts of wicked men whatsoever he will , yet rendring unto them according to their merits . then he proceeds to give other instances of scripture to manifest god's working in the hearts of men , and when he hath done , he concludes in this manner ; his & talibus testimoniis divinorum eloquiorum satis , quantum existimo , manifestatur operari deum in cordibus hominum ad inclinandas eorum voluntates quocunque voluerit sive ad bona pro suâ misericordiâ , sive ad mala pro meritis eorum , judicio utique suo aliquando occulto , semper autem justo . by these and such like testimonies of divine scripture , i take it to be sufficiently manifested , that god doth worke in the hearts of men , to incline their wills whithersoever he will , either to those things that are good , of his mercy , or to such things that are evill , for their deserts , in the way of judgment , which is sometimes known , sometimes secret , but alwaies just . and all this he shewes , to be wrought by god without prejudice to the freedome of their wills . and why should david pray after this manner . lord incline mine heart to thy testimonies , and not to covetousnesse ; if it were not in god's power to incline the hearts of men to covetousnesse ? yet i trust no sober christian will conclude from this prayer of david , that god by executing such a power is the author of sinne . lastly this argument is drawne from god's justice , so is the third , which is to confound rather then to distinguish the reasons produced by him . we say that god cannot possibly be the author of sinne , the necessity of his nature stands in opposition thereunto . for first sin hath no cause efficient but deficient only , as long agoe it hath been delivered by austin . ly , a cause deficient or defective is either in a culpable manner , or in a manner nothing culpable . as for example , that agent is defective culpably , that either omits the doing of that which he ought to doe ; or omits to doe it after that manner which he ought to doe it : now i say it is impossible that the divine nature can be defective either of these waies , and consequently it is impossible that he should be the author of sin , whereas he saith this is prosper's argument it is untrue . he saith indeed it is against reason , that god who damnes the devill should will that any man should be a servant to the divell : but forthwith he expounds himselfe . . expounding what that cōdition is of being the devills servants , whereof the objection did proceed . now the objection was this , that the greatest part of men were created for this , that they should doe , not the will of god , but the will of the devill : now this objection saith prosper proceeds from the pelagians : qui adae peccatum transiisse in omnes diffitentur , who deny the sin of adam to have passed unto all . so that , to doe the will not of god , but of the divell , is to be in the state of naturall corruption , and under the power of originall sinne , whereby they are not god's servants , but the devills ; this is not the condition of god's children in the state of grace . now prosper shewes how originall sinne passeth over all , not by the will of god ; and secondly , how it passeth over all by the will of god : not by the will of god instituente ; but by the will of god judicante : his words are these . haec servitus non est institutio dei , sed judicium . this slavery of sinne which came upon all by adam's sinne is not god's institution but his judgment . as much as to say it came not upon a man by god's first creation , but by his judgment upon him , because of his first trangression ; so that if divine judgment be the will of god ; it is apparent prosper is so farre from denying that slavery to have come upon all men by the just will of god , as that he expresly acknowledgeth it . it is true as fulgentius saith , that , god is not the authour of sinne , but the revenger of it . and it is as true that it is as just with god to punish sinne with sinne , as scripture justifies ; as st. austine observes , and improveth at large divers scriptures to this purpose , in his fifth book against iulian the pelagian , and third chap. tertullian in saying , he is not to be accounted the authour of sin , who is the forbidder , yea the condemner of it , falls directly upon the same ground that dominicus soto , with the divines of salamancha , and vasquez the jesuites , in explicating what that is which makes me to be the authour of a morall action ; as namely , by commanding , by counselling it , and perswading it ; and indeed condemnation is but consequent to a law forbidding this or that . now it is apparent that god in this respect ought to be accounted the authour of every good action , but of none that is evill . for he commands only that wich is good , and counselleth and perswadeth thereunto , but forbiddeth and disswadeth every thing that is evill . of this no notice at all is taken by this authour , neither taketh he any care to shew what that is , that maketh any agent justly to be accounted the authour of sinne . his third reason is all one with the former as drawne from god's justice and holinesse and his being judge of the world . for it is the property of the judge to condemne transgressours , whereupon his former argument insisted , and that allso was drawne from god's justice . but i remember well what the poet coupleth together when he saith , accessit fervor capiti numerusque lucernis . honesty retaines the creature from being the authour of sinne not his nature , he being peccabilis by nature , but so is not god ; it is impossible absolutely for him to be found defective any way in a culpable manner . he may withhold grace from any man , i speak of grace preservative from sinne . neither is he unjust herein ; for he is bound to none . at length he comes to prove the crimination laid upon his adversaries , as followeth . sect : . but this opinion doth so . for albeit the writers that have defended it ( piscator and a few more of the blunter sort excepted ) have never said directly and in terminis , that god is the cause of sinne ; yet have they delilivered these things ; from which it must needs follow by necessary consequence that he is so . for they say . . that , as the decree of reprobation is absolute , so it is inevitable . those poore soules which lye under it must necessarily be damned . it is saith marlorate a firme and stable truth , that the man whom god in his eternall counsell hath rejected , though he doe all the works of the saints , cannot possibly be saved . . that without sinne this decree of reprobation cannot be justly executed . god , saith piscator , did create men for this very purpose , that they might indeed fall ; for otherwise he could not have attained those his principall ends . he meanes the manifestation of his justice in the condemnation of reprobates ; and of his mercy in the salvation of the elect. maccovius allso saith the same . if sinne had not been , the manifestation of justice and mercy ( which is as much as to say , as the damnation of reprobates ) had never been . . that god decreed that reprobates must unavoidably sinne , and sinne unto death , that his eternall ordinance might be executed , and they damned . we grant saith zanchy , that reprobates are held so fast under god's almighty decree , that they cannot but sinne and perish ; and a little after he saith , we doubt not therefore to confesse , that there lieth upon reprobates by the power of their unchangable reprobation a necessity of sinning , yea of sinning to death without repentance , and consequently of perishing everlastingly . calvin also saith , that reprobates obey not the word of god , partly through the wickednesse of their own hearts , and partly because they are raised up by the unsearchable judgment of god to illustrate his glory by their damnation . i will end this with that speech of piscator . reprobates are precisely appointed to this evill , to be punished everlastingly , and to sinne : and therefore to sinne that they might be justly punished . . that as he hath immutably decreed that reprobates shall live and dye in sinne . so he procures their sinnes in due time by his almighty hand , partly by withdrawing from them grace necessary for the avoiding of sinne , and partly by moving and inclining them by his irresistable and secret working on their hearts ; to sinfull actions . calvin saith , that men and devills and reprobate-men are not only held fast in god's fetters , so as they cannot doe what they would , but are also urged and forced by god's bridle ad obsequia praestanda , to doe as he would have thē : & in the next chapter these are the words , that men have nothing in agitation , that they bring nothing to action , but what god by his secret direction hath ordered , is apparent by many cleare testimonies . in that section following he saith . and surely unlesse god did worke inwardly in the minds of men , it would not be rightly said , that he takes away wisdome from the wise . in these two chapters that which he mainly driveth at , is to shew that god doth not only behave himselfe privatively in procuring the sinnes of men , but doth allso put forth powerfull and positive acts , in the bringing of thē to passe . and in the second book and fourth chapter after he had said , that god may be said to harden men by forsaking them , he putteth in another way by which god hardneth them , & that he saith commeth a great deale nearer to the propriety of scripture phrases , namely , by stirring up their wills . god doth not only hardē men by levaing them unto themselves , but by appointing their counsells , ordering their deliberations , stirring up their wills , confirming their purposes by the minister of his anger satan . and this he proveth by the worke of god on sihon king of the amorites ▪ and then insinuateth the end too , why god thus hardens men in their wicked courses ; which is that he might destroy them . quia perditum deus volebat , obstinatio cordis divina fuit ad ruinam preparatio ; because god intends his ruine he prepared him for sin by his induration . the summe of all these propositions is this ; god who from all eternity appointed many miserable men to endlesse and unavoidable torments , decreed , for the bringing about of their intended ruine , that they should without remedy live and dye in a state of sinne : and what he thus decreed from everlasting , he doth powerfully effect in time , so governing , over-ruling & working upon the wills of those reprobates , that they have no liberty or ability at all in the issue , of avoiding their sinnes , but must of necessity commit them . thus they teach ; and therefore by just consequences they make god the authour of sinne ; as it will plainly appeare by these following considerations . poets tell us there was a time when giants on earth set themselves to fight against god in heaven ; & because the place of his habitation was out of their reach , they laid mountaine upon mountaine hill upon hill , pelion upon ossa , that so they might make their approaches unto him , & beseige him in his own fastnes : this fable is a monumēt of the shipwrack of that truth among heathen-men , which the lord had preserved unto his church upon record in his holy word . for when after the great deluge in the dayes of noah , men began to be multiplied upon the face of the earth , they consulted how they might fortify themseves against the like inundation for the time to come ; and thereupon encouraged thēselves saying , goe to let us build us a city and a town , whose top may reach unto the heaven that we may get us a name , least we be scattered upon the whole earth . but how didthe lord deale with these presumptuous adventurers ? the poet 's faign that iupiter destroyed them with his thunderbolts ; and as for one of them typhoeus by name , a proud fellow , he laid him fast enough under the hill aetna in sicily , where he breaths out smoak & fire like the great polan out of a tobacco-pipe somewhat bigger then a good caliver . but the scripture tels us , how that for their saying , goe too , let us build . &c. the lord answered them with a come on , let us goe downe and there confound their language , that every one perceive not one anothers speech . this author herhaps is but a pygmie for bodily presence , yet he may be a gyant for his wit , and found 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to fight against god in a spirituall way in the opposing of his truth . as gamaliel sometimes advised the high priest with his counsell to take heed , lest they were found even fighters against god. it is true this author no doubt perswades himselfe that he fights for god , in as much as he affects to free him from being the author of sin . but let not the simple reader be deluded with shewes , but seriously consider whither all this doe , which he makes about the point of reprobation doth not clearly tend to the overthrowing of god's free grace in election : which is so much the more foule , because he doth it underhand ; as conscious to himselfe of his owne impotency to impugne it openly , or fearing the generall opposition of our church against him , & therefore he practiseth to undermine it . and this i have found to be his course divers years agoe in his private undertakings to draw proselytes unto him , namely to decline the point of grace , & of election , to deale only upon reprobation ▪ and there to put his concurrent to begin , as if he would have a young divine to inform a sexagenarian , as i have seen under his own hand . but see the hand of god upon him in confounding his language , as when he stands for reprobation evitable & avoidable , & reproacheth his adversaries for maintaining reprobation inevitable & unavoidable . this is the phrase of his schoole . for i do not remember to have met with it any where , but in him , & his disciples : now what man of common sense doth not observe this phrase to be appliable only to things that are to come ; but of a contingent nature ; so that they may be avoyded & declined ; but by no means apply able to things already done , & that more then many thousand years agoe . for what sober man could heare with patience another discourse of the avoidable nature of noah's flood now in these daies , & to maintain that it is at this day avoidable : what fustian like to this ? might he not as well take liberty to discourse of the aequinoctiall pasticrust ? it was wont to be said , that this alone god himself could not perform ; namely to cause that which is done to be not done . as aristotle in his eth relates a saying of one agatho to that purpose . now reprobation is confessed by all to be of the same age with election ; & election was as the apostle tels us , performed by god before the foundation of the world and is not this author then besides himself , when he pleads for evitable & avoydable reprobation . but albeit this author makes the worst of our opinions and expressions , yet i will not requite him by making the worst of his , that were base & inglorious , and to be overcome . i will therefore hearken to the apostles counsell where he saith , be not overcome with evill , but overcome evill with good . i will make the best of his , and according to the distinction of god's will used in schooles ; as it is taken either quoad actum volentis , or quoad res volitas , as touching the act of him that willeth , or the things willed . so i will imagine that he speaks of reprobation , which is the will of god , not as touching the act of god reprobating & making such a decree , but as touching the thing decreed , & this thing decreed he will have to be of an avoidable nature . now this we willingly grant , & utterly deny , that this any way hinders the absolutenes of god's decree . we say with the article of the church of ireland , that god from all aeternity did by his unchangeable councell ordain whatsoever should in time come to passe , yet so as hereby neither the contingency nor liberty of the second causes is taken away , but established rather . so that whereas we see some things come to passe necessarily , some contingently ; so god hath ordained that all things shall come to passe that do come to passe ; but necessary things necessarily , contingent things contingently , that is , avoidably & with a possibility of not comming to passe . for every university scholar knows this to be the notion of contingency , yet will not i content my selfe with the article of ireland , for this aquinas thus distinguisheth . for having proposed this question , whether the will of god doth impose a necessity upon the things willed . to this question this author with whom i deale would answer affirmatively , saying , it doth impose a necessity on all such things , or at least obtrude such an opinion upon us ; & himself undoubtedly thinks that in case gods will be absolute it must cause a necessity upon all things willed therby , both which are utterly untrue , & this last utterly denyed by aquinas . for first , every will of god is absolute in the judgment of aquinas , which i prove thus ; that will which hath noe cause or reason thereof is absolute : this proposition i presume this authour will not deny : but the will of god hath no cause in the judgment of aquinas therefore every will of god is absolute by his doctrine : yet this absolute will of god imposeth not a necessity upon all things willed by him , but only on some things . divina volunt as non omnibus sed quibusdam necessitatem imponit . and in the body of that question thus he writes , the distinction of things necessary and contingent proceeds from the distinction of god's will. for when a cause is effectuall and powerfull to worke , the effect followeth the cause , not only so farre as to be brought to passe , but also as touching the manner of its coming to passe . therefore seing the will of god is most effectuall , it not only followeth that those things come to passe , which god will have come to passe , but that they come to passe after the same manner also , after which he will have them come to passe . now god will have some things come to passe necessarily and some things contingently , that there may be an order in things for the perfection of the world . and therefore for the producing of some effects he hath fitted causes necessary , which cannot faile , by which effects are brought forth necessarily : and for the producing of other effects , he hath fitted causes contingent , such as may faile in working , from which effects are brought to passe contingently . so that upon suspicion that god doth will a thing , that thing shall certainly and infallibly come to passe ; but how ? not allwaies necessarily or contingently . and that certaine and infallible eveniency of things is called also necessity in the schooles ; but not necessity simply , but only upon suspicion , which may well consist with absolute contingency . but to make the point yet more cleare ; let us distinctly consider the things decreed ; for they that have an evill cause delight in confusion , and feare nothing more then the light of distinction . now the things decreed by reprobation are either deniall of grace , which is joyned with the permission of sinne : or damnation for sinne , according to that on aquinas , reprobation includes the will of permitting sinne , & inflicting damnation for sinne . now both the permission of sinne , and damnation of god's part are his free acts ; and therefore come to passe freely . but upon supposition that god will deny a man grace , it is impossible that such a man should have grace . secondly , secluding grace , there is noe actuall transgression for which a man is damned , but may be avoided ; man having power for that naturally ; though naturally he have noe power to performe every good act . the reason is because amongst good acts some are supernaturall , as the acts of the three theologicall vertues , faith , hope , and charity : but noe sinfull act is supernaturall , all such are naturall . now it is confest on all hands that , notwithstanding man's corruption by reason of originall sinne , yet he hath still power and free will to performe any naturall act , and accordingly he hath free power to abstaine from it . so that iudas had free will to abstaine from betraying his master ; after he had betrayed him , he had free power to abstaine from destroying himselfe ; so that as these sinnes of his for which he was damned were avoidable by him , in like manner his damnation for these sinnes was avoidable . and allbeit god had determined that iudas by divine permission should betray his master , and destroy himselfe , according to to that of austin , iudas electus est ad prodendum sanguinem domini ; iudas was ordained to betray his master . and that of the apostles jointly . of a truth against thy holy son iesus both herod , and pontius pilate , with the gentiles and people of israell were gathered to doe what thy hand , and thy counsell had before determined to be done . acts : . . yet herehence it followes only , that it was necessary ( to wit , upon this supposition , namely , of the divine ordinance . ) that these things should come to passe , namely , both iudas his betraying of christ , and herods mocking of him , and pilates condemning him , and the peoples crying out away with him , together with their preferring of barrabas a murtherer before him , and the souldiers crucifying him . but how came it to passe ? not necessarily , but contingently , that is in this authours phrase evitably and avoidably , inas much as it was joyned with an absolute possibility to come to passe otherwise ; nor with a possibility only but with a free power in the agents to have forborne all these contumelious carriages of theirs towards the son of god. for both iudas had free will to abstaine from betraying him , and herod with his herodians could have abstained from their contumelious handling of him , and pilate from condemning him , and the preists and people from conspiring against him ; and the souldiers from crucifying him , only they had no power to abstaine from all or any of these vile actions in an holy manner , as no man else hath power to abstaine from any evill in a gracious manner , without grace : yea without the grace of regeneration which alone plants in us both faith in god , and a love of god to the very contempt of our selves , and no performance of any good or abstinence from any evill , is acceptable with god unto eternall life , unlesse it proceed from this faith and this love . that which is here produced out of marlorate is a strange speech , and such as i never read or heard from any before : and such , as whereof i can give no tolerable construction . and is it fit that every extravagant passage that is found in any writer of ours should be brought forth to charge our doctrine with ? it were a fitter speech for a papist who maintaining the absolutenesse of reprobation , doth withall maintaine an apostacy from grace , which we do not , if marlorate had any such opiniō he sings therein to himself , & to his own muses what divine of ours maintains that god hath decreed to damne any man otherwaies then by way of punishment for sin continued in unto death without repentance ? had he spoken of good works morall only , it is true any hypocrite is capable of them ; and none taste deeper of damnation then hypocrites . but as for the worke of true faith & true repentance ; it is the generall profession of our divines , that as faith and the spirit of repentance once given , never faile , so they shall infallibly bring a man unto everlasting life , and free him from condemnation . but any thing serves this authors turn to vent his stomack : and i am perswaded , there is not one more of all our divines that he can shew to concurre with marlorat in this . and if there were is it fit their improvident & inconsiderate expressions should be cast in their teeth that avouch them not , but rather conceive them to be void of all sobriety ? brentius apud marloratum in illud , ioh. . . omnem palmitem in me non ferentem fructum tollet , &c. caeterum haec sententia occurrit curiositati carnis quae solet argutè , magis quàm reverenter de praedestinatione disserere , & pro suo ingenio colligere nullum à domino ad vitam aeternam electum posse damnari , etiamsi pessimè vivat . nullum item à domino ad ignem aeternum deputatum posse salvari etiamsi optimè vivat ; se itaque velle pro suâ libidine vivere . ut ut enim sollicite lahoret , non tamen posse decretum dei infringere . respondet hic christus , omnem palmitem , &c. qnod dicitur . quid ad te de occultâ dei praedestinatione ? hoc tu videris , ut tu in me maneas , & fructum feras , reliquae dispensationi & prudentiae dei committenda sunt . nam etiamsi videar is ad aeternam salutem praedestinatus , non tamen fructum feras , abjicieris in ignem tanquam infructuosus palmes . he instances in saul , then whom there was not a better man in israel . that which is here cited out of marlorat his expositio ecclesiastica , it is set down as in calvin's commentary : but no such thing is found in calvin . and it may be that is the fault of the printers mistaking . and marlorat's own exposition succeeds in a few words thus . quae ideò dicuntur non ut fideles inde ansam arripiant de suâ salute dubitandi sed ut carnalis securitas & ignavia ab hominibus tollatur . and the next sentence whence this question is taken seems to cohere with this , though a great c. as if it were calvin's comes in between , and it begins thus . certum est enim dècretum dei à nemine infirmari posse ; quia deus non est ut homo qui poenitentiam agat , & retractet sententiam semel decretam . then followes the passage here alleadged , and at the heels of it these words : time igitur , & in solam domini eligentis manum respice ut salutem per dominum nostrum iesum christum assequaris . undoubtedly marlorat approves of brentius his exposition , otherwise he would not have placed it in his expositio ecclesiastica . now brentius brings in the very saying for which maldonat is criminated , as the objection of some carnall person . therefore when marlorat seems to justifie such a saying , it must be in another sense ; and that either of good workes in shew , of which brentius also observed , that such might have been found in saul : or of workes in distinction from faith . and accordingly he concludes with exhortation feare : that is not to be secure , how good soever his workes are ; but to have an eye to god and trust only to him , that so he may obtain salvation through jesus christ . calvin in ioh. . . arescere dicuntur instar emortua sarmenta quae à christo resecta ; sūt quia sicuti initiū vigoris ab ipso est ita & continuus tenor . non quòd ex electis aliquem contingat unquam execari : sed quia multae hypocritae in speciem ad tempus florent & virent , qui postea in reddendo fructu spem domini frustrantur . they are said to to wither like a branch cut off , such as are cut off from christ : because like as the beginning of their vigour is from him , so also their continuance . not that at any time it falleth out that any of gods elect is cut off , but because many hypocrites carry a faire shew for a time as if they were green and flourishing , who afterwards in rendring fruit make void the lords expectation . . the decree of reprobation as touching one part of it , cannot be executed without sin ; for it is a decree of inflicting damnation for sin , so that there is no place for damnation , where sinne and that as a meritorious cause preceeds not . i had thought this authour needed not to runne out to piscator and maccovius for proofe of this ; neither arminius nor the authour is of any other opinion i am confident , then that the decree of damnation cannot be executed on any without the precedency of sin in the party who is to be damned . but there is another part of reprobation for as aquinas speakes , it includes the will of permitting sin . now the execution of this decree , which consists in the permitting of sin , doth not require the precedency of sinne . for when god first permitted the angels to fall , this permission of his did not require any precedency of sinne in them ; nor the permission of adam to fall ; it cannot be said without manifest contradiction , that it did . for before the first sinne there was no sinne . piscator saith that , god created men for this very purpose that they might fall ; he saith , hoc consilio , which is as much as to say , with this purpose , not , for this purpose ; to wit , to permit them to fall ; and god purposing this , purposed that they should fall by his permission . for arminius confesseth that in case god permits a man to will this or that , necesse est ut nullo argumentorū genere persuadeatur ad nolendum . it must needs be that no argument shall perswade him to will that , which god permits him to will. and that it is good that evill should come to passe by god's permission , both austine hath affirmed , & bellarmine subscribed . and shall it not be lawfull for god to will that which is good ? undoubtedly neither justice punishing , nor mercy pardoning , can be manifested without sin , either to be punished , or pardoned , or both : neither is it credible to me that this authour thinks otherwise . and is not the manifestatiō of god's mercy on some , and his justice on others , the supreme end of god's providence towards mankind , and consequently by the most received rules of schooles first intended , even before the permisson of sinne ? for if the permission of sinne were first intended , then by the same rule of schooles , it should be in the last place executed ; that is , god should first manifest his mercy and justice in pardoning some , and punishing others , and afterwards suffer them to sinne ; such is the learning and judgments of these divines . and as for the foresight of sin , it is apparent , that it presupposeth god's purpose to permit it ; and more then that , it presupposeth the fruition of it . now it is well knowne , that sinne in its own nature is meerly possible . how comes it to passe , that from the condition of a thing meerly possible , it hath passed into the condition of a thing future ? this cannot be done without a cause ; and that cause must be eternall ; for the effect was eternall . for from everlasting sinne was future ; for from everlasting god knew it to be future . now there is nothing everlasting , but god himselfe , therefore he must needs be the cause of this transition whereby a thing meerly possible in its own nature became future . and therefore , either by his knowledge he was the cause thereof , or by his will and decree . not by his knowledge ; for that rather supposeth thē to be future , then makes them such . it remaines therefore that the will of god , and that alone makes every future thing to passe out of the condition of a thing meerly possible , into the condition of a thing future , and that from everlasting . let this authour satisfie this argument , and i will ease him of all further paines , and lay down the bucklers before him . . it is untrue that by our doctrine reprobates doe unavoidably sinne . i have already demonstrated the contrary . for as i said , malum semper habitat in alieno fundo , every actuall sinne is a naturall act ; a worke of grace may be supernaturall as touching the substance of the act , so is not the worke of sinne , but allwaies naturall . now no christian that i know affirmes that a man in the state of sin is bereaved of free will in things naturall . nay we generally confesse , he hath free will in things morall , only as touching things spirituall he hath no freedome left therein : therefore as i said before , iudas might have naturally forborne to betray his master ; naturally forborne to destroy himselfe . if some object , the common opiniō of divines is , that in a state of nature there is noe libertie for sinne . i answer ; first out of aquinas , that this is to be understood of sinne in generall , not of any in particular : licet aliquis non possit gratiam adipisci qui reprobatur à deo , tamen quod in hoc peccatum vel illud labatur ex ejus libero arbitrio contingit . though a man that is reprobated of god cannot obtaine grace , ( for how should he obtaine it if god will not give it ? will they say that grace is given according unto workes ? ) yet that he falls into this or that sinne , this is a contingent thing , and proceeds from his own free will. so say i every sinfull act committed by man in the state of naturall corruption , is committed freely in such sort that he might have abstained from it , but i doe not say that he could abstain from it in a gracious manner . but whether he doth that which is good , he doth it not in a gracious manner ; so that still he sinneth more or lesse , and all by reason that as yet he hath neither faith in god , nor love of god , which are the fountaines of all gracious actions , both in doing that which is good , and in abstaining from that which is evill . as for zanchi's saying , that god holds reprobates so fast that they cannot but sinne . this act of god is no other then his denying them grace to breake of their sinnes by repentance , and to turne unto god. now the apostle professeth that as , god hath mercy on whom he will , so he hardeneth others , even whom he will , in denying this grace unto them . and marke what objection he shapes hereupon , thou wilt say then why doth he yet complaine ? ( to wit of men's disobedience : for of nothing else doth the lord complaine . ) for who hath resisted his will ? observe the chaines wherewith god holds them fast irresistably , to wit the chaines of obduration . let the authour therefore charge st. paul as well as zanchy for making god the authour of sinne , and indeed he might have abounded in passages out of holy scripture alleadged to the same end , whereunto he alleadgeth these out of our divines ; yea and papists too . but piscator , zanchy , and calvine , these are his proper markes to shoote at , ever since he learnt in his age to correct the errours of his youth in taking frivolous exceptions against bellarmine . as for a necessity of sinning brought upon all by the sinne of adam . arminius acknowledgeth it , and this arminius is acknowledged by corvinus in his answer to lilenus . only god takes it away from his elect at the time of their calling and regenerating , and leaves it upon the rest ; and who can say black to the eye for this ? will we not give him libertie to have mercy on whom he will , and harden whom he will ? then let us fly in the face of paul as well as calvine & zanchy for so plainly teaching this . the hardnesse of men's hearts is the immediate cause why they obey not god's word ; but there is another cause also that our saviour takes notice of , and that is this ; that god doth not regenerate them , or hath not elected them . of this our divines may well take notice , because moses before hath done the like . the israelites profited neither by hearing of god's word , nor by the seeing of his mighty workes , i say by none of these did they profit unto repentance ; and what was the reason hereof ? surely the hardnesse of their hearts , as moses signifies , thou art a stiffe-necked people . yet he takes notice of another cause and that is this , yet the lord hath not given our hearts to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto this day . so our saviour in the gospell ; he that is of god heareth god's words , ye therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god now to be raised up in calvin's phrase , to illustrate god's glory in their damnation , is no other then to be brought forth into the world , and not to be borne of god , that is , to have the grace of regeneration denied them , and consequently to be suffered to goe on in their sinnes ; and lastly to be damned for their sinne , to the manifestation of the glory of god's justice . solomon saith as much , the lord made all things for himselfe , that is for the manifestation of his glory , even the wicked against the day of evill . and st. paul rom : by shewing mercy towards some , signifies how god formes some after one manner , by hardening others he formes them after another manner comparing the . v. with the . and in the . he justifies god in this , and that in reference to different ends , which are the manifestation of his glory different waies , saying , hath not god power over the clay of the same lumpe to make one vessell unto honour , and another unto dishonour . and verse . what if god to shew his wrath and to make his power known , suffered with long patience the vessells of his wrath prepared to destruction . v. . and that he might declare the riches of his glory upon the vessells of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory ? what one of our divines expresseth himselfe in this argument more fully , or more liably to carnall exceptions following the judgment of flesh and bood , then st. paul doth in this ? here by the way as touching piscator , i must fetch after mine answer in his behalfe , to that which in the entrance to this section was delivered of him , and overseen by me . for this authour confessing that our writers have never said directly in terminis , that god is the cause of sinne , which introduction of his is the very same which bellarmine useth , opposing our divines on this very argument , lib. . deamissione gratiae & statu peccati . cap. . afterwards by a parenthesis brings in an exception of piscator , and some other of the blunter sort , without naming one of them . and though he name piscator yet he quotes no place ; for if he had , he should withall direct his reader to the grounds whereupon piscator affirmes this , namely that , god is the cause of man's fidelity . and it is the very place formerly mentioned in these words . he that is of god heareth god's words , ye therefore heare them not because ye are not of god now what reasonable mā can deny , but that it is a sin not to heare god's words ; then doth not our saviour plainly professe , that the true cause hereof is , because they are not of god ? now if to be of god in this place doth signifie god's election , then the cause of their sinnes hereby is made god 's not electing of them . but if this phrase , to be of god , signifie god's regenerating of them , as i thinke it doth , then god's not regenerating of them is made the cause of this their disobedience in not hearing god's word 's : and indeed the evill of sinne hath noe efficient cause but deficient only , as austine hath delivered long agoe . and god is not bound to any , either to elect him , or regenerate him ; so that in failing to regenerate mā , he doth not deficere , or faile in any culpable mā ner : now let every indifferent reader judge , whether here be not , dignus vindice nodus a knot worthy to be loosed ; & it will require some worth of learning in him that solves it . and is it decent for this authour to censure a man for a conclusion made by him out of the word of god , without shewing the faultinesse either of his interpretation thereof , or of his consequence framed therehence ? so that this author's wit & cunning is more to be cōmended in not specifying the place where piscator delivers this doctrine , then either his learning or his honesty . he was loath to raise spirits , & afterwards to prove unable to lay them . therefore thus i answer in behalfe of piscator ; though god her by me made the cause why sōe heare not god's words , to wit , in as much as he doth not regenerate thē , nor give the eies to see , nor eares to heare , & an heart to perceive according to that of moses . yet he doth not make god any culpable cause , neither indeed is he any culpable cause , while he failes to performe so gracious a worke towards thē : the reason whereof is this . he and he alone is a culpable cause , who failes in doing that which he ought to do : ut god all be it he doth not regenerate a man , yet he failes not of doing that which he ought to doe . for it is no duty of his to regenerate any man ; for he is bound to none . now to be the authour of sinne is not only to be the cause thereof , but to be a culpable cause thereof . undoubtedly god could preserve any man from sinne if it pleased him , and if he doth not , he is nothing faulty . secondly i answere that in true account , god is only the cause , why our naturall infidelity is not healed , our corruption not cured . like as a physitian may be said to be the cause why such a man continues sicke in as much as he could cure him , but will not : soe god could cure the infidelitie of all , but will not . only here is the difference , the physitian may be a culpable cause , as who is bound to love his neighbour as himselfe ; but god being bound to none , is no culpable cause of man's continuance in sinne , and in the hardnesse of his heart , albeit he can cure him , but will not . as for piscator's saying here mentioned , reprobates are appointed precisely to this double evill , to be punished everlastingly , and to sinne ; and therefore to sinne that they may be justly punished . hereing are two things charged upon piscator . . that reprobates are precisely appointed by god to perish everlastingly . to this i answer that noe arminiā that i know denies reprobates to be appoinby god to everlasting damnation . all the question is about the manner of appointing them ; namely whether this appointment of god , proceeds meerly according to his meer pleasure , or upon the foresight of sinne . we say it proceeds meerly according to the good pleasure of god , and not upon the foresight of sinne preceding . and this we not only say , but prove thus . if reprobation proceed upon the foresight of sinne , then it were of men's evill workes . now looke upon what grounds the apostle proves , that election is not of ; good workes , upon the same ground it is evident that reprobation is not of evill works : for the argumēt for the one is this . before iacob & esau were borne or had done good or evill ; it was said to rebekah the elder shall serve the younger , therfore election is not of good works . in like manner thus i reason concerning reprobation , before iacob and esau were borne or had done good or evill it was said to rebekah , the elder shall serve the younger , therefore reprobation is not of evill workes . . if god doth ordaine any man to damnation upon foresight of sin , then this sin foreseen is the cause of the divine ordinance ; but sin foreseen cannot be the cause why god ordained man to damnation ; as i prove thus . if it be the cause then either by the necessity of nature ; or by the ordinance of god ; not by necessity of nature . for undoubtedly god if it pleased him could ordaine to annihilate them for their sinnes , instead of punishing them with eternall fire . nor can it be the cause of any such decree by the free ordinance of god. for if it were , marke what intolerable absurdityes would follow , namely this , that god did ordaine that upon the foresight of sinne he would ordaine men unto damnation ; whereby god's eternall ordination is made the object of god's ordination ; whereas all know that the objects of god's decrees ( which are all one with his ordinations ) are things temporall , not things eternall . . if the foresight of sinne goes before the decree of damnation , then the decree of permitting sinne goes before the decree of damning for sin ; that is the permission of sinne was first in intention , and consequently it ought to be last in execution ; that is , first man should be damned for sin , and not till afterwards permitted to sinne . the second thing charged upon piscator is this , that , reprobates are precisely appointed to sin . now here the crimination grates not upō the manner of being appointed thereunto ; otherwise a way could be opened for a progresse in infinitum . now why should it be any more a fault in piscator to say of some that they are appointed to sinne ; then in peter to say of some that they are appointed to disobedience : or in all the apostles to professe that all the outrages committed by herod and pilate , by the gentiles and people of israell were such as gods hand & his counsell had before determined to be done ? or why doth piscator make god to be the authour of sinne in this , more then peter and all the apostles ? and considering this man's unconscionable carriage in this , let the reader take heed how he suffers himselfe to be gull'd by this authour , and drawne to censure such speeches in piscator , as making god the authour of sinne , when hereby he is drawne ere he is aware to passe the like censure on the apostles ? and the holy ghost himselfe , whose expressions are the same for substance with the expressions of piscator . it is farther observable that piscator saith , that reprobates by reason of this divine ordination doe sinne necessarily . i answer , piscator was an excellent scripture divine , but noe school-divine ; and therefore noe marvaile if he want the accuratenesse of scholasticall expression . yet i salve him thus . they sinne necessarily upon suspicion that god will have them to sinne by his permission ; but this is noe necessity simply so called , but only secundum quid . but god decrees the manner of things comming to passe , as well as the things themselves ; as before i shewed out of aquinas . soe that all be it it must needs be , that sinne come to passe , in case god hath decreed it shall come to passe ; yet if the question be , after what manner it shall come to passe , i answere , not necessarily , but contingently and freely , that is not onely with a possibility of not comming to passe , but with a free power in the creature to abstaine from that sin which is committed by him . for god ordained that every thing that doth come to passe shall come to passe agreably to the nature thereof , and accordingly moves every creature to worke agreeably to their natures . necessary agents , necessarily , contingent agents contingently . free agents freely . and as formerly was mentioned , every sinfull act is a naturall act ; and a man hath free power even in the state of corruption either to doe , or to leave undone any naturall act . and piscator in other places dealing with vorstius , clearely professeth as i well remember ( though the the place come not to my memory ) that wicked men doe commit those things freely which are committed by them . and it is an excellent saying of austine , that , libertas sine gratiâ non est libertas sed contumacia , liberty without grace , is not liberty but wilfullnesse ; & indeed they shew too much will therein , rather then too little : and in denying liberty to them that want grace , he speakes of liberty morall , which is only unto true good , not of liberty naturall , which hath place only in the choice of meanes , and is inseparable from the nature of man : but true morality sets a mans soule in a right condition towards his right end . . it may be this authour could not be so inconsiderate as not to perceive that even those expressions concerning gods decree , which he criminates in our divines are scripture expressions ; therefore to helpe his cause here he imputes unto them , that they maintaine that god decreed this immutably ; as if himselfe could be content to grant that these things are decreed by god , but not immutably . and would this authour have the will of god to be of a mutable condition , like unto ours ? i am confident he dares not professe so much ; for albeit he licks his lips at a conditionall decree , yet how doth he conceive this to be mutable ? for to resolve to save men upon condition of faith , and repentance , and perseverance ; and damne others in case they continue in infidelity and impenitency ; if accordingly none be saved but such in whom faith and repentance , and finall perseverance therein is found , none damned but such as persevere in sinne unto death ; what change is there in all this ? unlesse this be it , that god did not resolve to save any particular person untill his finall perseverance was accomplished ; and so god may be said in processe of time , to change from not willing to willing one man's salvation , and another man's damnation : in which case god's decree also should not be eternall , but begin in time . againe as touching that which followes of of god decreeing that reprobates shall live and dye in sinne . i answer , to decree not to regenerate reprobates , is to decree that reprobates shall not be regenerated , for they are not able to regenerate themselves ; and to decree that they shall not be regenerated , is to decree that they shall live and dye in sinne , by god's permission , he resolving never to shew such mercies to take them of from their sinfull courses by repentance . and so long as they are not borne of god , they will not heare his words , as our saviour testifies saying , yee therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god. as for sinne procured by the hand of god , which he obtrudes upon our divines ; not one passage doth he produce for that . yet as i remember i have read such an harsh expression in piscator dealing against vorstius , which at this time doth not come to my remembrance ; but withall i remember that piscator being charged therewith by vorstius , forthwith represents certaine passages of scripture concerning gods's providence in evill , and appeales to the judgment of every sober christian , whether to do that , which therein is attributed to god , be not to procure sin . it is apparent that joseph acknowledgeth , that the lord sent him into egypt , yet was this brought to passe by the parricidiall hands of his brethren . and it is no lesse plaine that god hardened pharaohs heart that he should not let israel goe and by arminius his definition of effectuall grace , it is evident that by gods denying it , sin doth follow infallibly . and so likewise upon gods permission of willing this or that , he professeth that it must needs be , that by noe kind of argument shall such a one be perswaded to nill it . i come to the meanes whereby he is said to procure it . the first is , by withdrawing grace necessary for the avoyding of sin . now of this he gives no instance out of any of our divines . i know no grace which this authour accounts necessary , that any of our divines teach to be withdrawen by god. god indeed doth not determine their wills to that which is good ; but this authour doth not account any such determination necessary to the avoyding of sin . prohibition , denuntiation of judgment , dehortation and such gracious actions , god doth neither withdraw , nor withhold from the wicked , who are partakers of this grace as well as gods children , as often as they meet in the same congregation for the hearing of sermons . . an effectuall restraint from sin , i know none but the feare of god ; yet this he withdrawes not from the wicked ; for they never had it ; nor from the children of god ; only he doth not stirrre it in them at all times , so often as he suffers them to sin , which yet may be to gracious ends . as i for the confirmation of their faith , that nothing , no not sin shall separate them from the love of god ; when they shall find the goodnesse of god minding them of their errours , and bringing them to repentance . as also to make them smart for their former security and wantonnesse in beholding the uncomfortable issue of it . to provoke them to walke more carefully and circumspectly for the time to come , standing upon their guard , and keeping the watch of the lord. . to cure their pride , according to that of austin . audeo dicere , utile est superbis in aliquod apertum manifestumque cadere peccatum . i am bold to speake it , it is good for a proud man to to fall into some open and manifest sin . i come to the second stay , whereby he objects to our divines that they maintaine that god procures the sinnes of men , and that is by his moving and inclining them by his irresistable and secret workings on their hearts , to sinfull actions . to which i answer first that not any of the passages alleadged by him out of calvin ( who alone makes totam paginam in this of his ) makes mention of gods irresistable working ; or of moving or inclining unto sinfull actions . and let every sober man judge whether a bridle is fit to urge men to action , and not rather to restraine from action , and this is the force of the first quotation . but this authour through heat corrupting his imagination tooke a bridle for a spurre . his second testifies only this , that man doth nothing but what god decreed , and by his direction appointeth ; and this also upon pregnant testimonies of scripture ; never undertaking to shew calvins interpretation to be false , or his accommodation of them to be incongruous . in the third he grants that god workes in the mind of men . in the . he saith that god stirrs up the wills , and confirmes the purposes of wicked men for the execution of his judgment by satan the minister of his wrath . where consider he doth this by satan , that is he gives them over to satan for this ; so that 't is satan that stirres up their wills and confirmes their endeavours , by gods permission without restraint either immediate or mediate by the ministry of his good angells ; and all this is but to execute gods judgments . and that it is just with god to punish sin with sin , both scripture testifies in divers places , and austin confirmes with variety of scripture testimonies , in his lib. . contra julian : pelag : cap. . the last is that god's worke it is to harden mans heart , and thereby prepare him to destruction ? and let every sober reader that is not willing to be cheated both of his faith and honesty all at once , examine these places in calvin , and the scriptures whereby he proves that which he affirmes ; and let him but aske the authour these questions . if calvin delivers nothing in all this but what he proves out of scripture , why is he found fault with more then the word of god. if scripture be mis-alleadged and mis-understood by him , why do not you confute him ? though calvin in all this makes no mention of gods inclining wicked men to sinfull actions ; yet austin doth as before i have shewed , and that by , variety of scripture testimonies . and if this be to make god the authour of sin , why hath he not so much ingenuity as to confesse at least in the close of all , that calvin makes god the authour of sin , no more then austin doth ; and neither of them more then the word of god doth , and therewithall renounce the scriptures and turne atheist . as the lord hardened the heart of pharaoh to his destruction , so did he the heart of sihon also nowsee what cardinall caietan writes upon thisvery place . utramque homines partē ( spiritum & cor , hoc est superiorem & inferiorem ) male dispositam à deo intellige negativè penes dona gratuita ; positivè autem quoad judicium , inclinationem & prosecutionem bòni sensibilis . ita quod deus spiritum regis durum ( hoc est non cedentem petionibus ) reddit , & non dando ei gratiam acquiescendi , & coo operando eidem , ad affectum securitatis & boni proprii , & similiter roboravit cor ad affectum boni , victoriae , & hujusmodi . each part of king sihon , his spirit and heart , that is the upper and lower part being ill disposed by god ( understād this negatively ) as touching guifts of grace ; but positively as touching his judgment , affection , and prosecution of a sensible good . so that the lord made the kings heart hard ; that is not to yeild to the request made , both by not giving grace to rest satisfied , and by cooperating with him , to the affecting of security and his own good . and in like manner he hardned his heart to the affecting of victory , and the like . i have not heard that this my opposite hath been ever ready to censure caietan for making god the authour of all this ; yet noe passage i am perswaded throughout all calvin's works can be found comparable unto this . yet was caietan noe jesuite , he need not spare his censures . i come to the sum of that which he hath delivered in a whole leafe . the first whereof is this , that we teach , that god appointed many miserable men from all eternity to unavoidable torments now that god appointed many fom eternity to everlasting torments , this authour acknowledgeth as well as we . as for the avoidable condition of them , it is confessed on both sides , that they are avoidable only by breaking off their sinnes by repentance before their death ; and by this we acknowledge them to be avoidable of all and every one , as well as they . but we say god doth not grant this grace to all . for he is not bound to give it to all , noe nor to any ; but he vouchsafeth this grace to whom he will , and he denieth it to whom he will , and this st. paul hath taught us , where he saith , god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . the second is , that we teach , that god to bring about their intended ruine , decreed that they should without remedie live & die in a state of sin . to this i answer , that it is a most absurd conceite , to make the tormenting of any man god's end . we have learnt of king solomon that , god made all things for himselfe ; here is the end of his actions , the manifestation of his own glory and albeit , he made the very wicked also against the day of evill ; yet the end thereof was , for himselfe , as formerly specified , that is for the manifestation of his just wrath , and that god hath power without any difference in the matter , to make some vessells of wrath , and some of mercy , as he thinkes good . the apostle plainely teacheth us , where he saith , hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessell unto honour , and another unto dishonour . and if any man's wicked proud heart make insurrection against this truth , the apostle hath taught us to stop his mouth with this , shall the the thing formed say to him that formed it why hast thou made me thus ? shall not god have as much power over the masse of mankind , as the potter hath over the clay ? so that this is god's end not man's damnation , but his own glory . haec loquendiratio saith calvin , this manner of speech , finem creationis esse interitum aeternum , the end of man's creation is his everlasting destruction , nusquam apud me occurret , shall never be found in my writing . so beza in his questions and answers , i say god hath ordained not judicio , for judgment , but , judicio , for just judgment , that is to manifest his justice upon them . secondly , we deny that god suffers them to persevere in their sinfull courses without giving them grace to repent , to the end that he may damne them ; but with alvarez every way standing as much for absolute reprobation as calvin ; that god suffers them to sin , and to persevere therein , and damnes them for their sin , to this end , namely , for the manifestation of the glory of his justice . and as for this authour's opinion in premising the foresight of sin to the decree of damnation , i have already represented the manifest absurdity thereof , as namely in this , that seing god cannot foresee sin , unlesse he first decree to permit it , it followes that by his opinion , the decree to permit sin must preceed the decree of damnation , that is sin is first in intention , and then damnation . whence it followes that if sin be first in intention , it must be last in execution ; and consequently men shall be first damned for their sin , and after that suffered to commit sin ; this is the glorious issue of the premises of this authour . his third and last is , that by our doctrine , god for the effecting of all this powerfully doth so governe and work upon the wills of reprobates , that they have noe libertie or abilitie at all in the issue of avoiding their sinnes , but must of necessitie commit them to this i answer , that no other power is requisite for the effecting of all this ; then . to suffer all men to fall in adam , . to bring forth all men in originall sinne , which alone deserves damnation as mr. hoord confesseth , and as this authour sometimes read in his lectures at magdelen hall. . not to regenerate reprobates , but to suffer them finally to persevere in their ungodly courses , without giving them grace to break off their sins by repentance . . yet we deny , that all power and ability is taken from reprobates to avoid actuall sinnes : we grant willingly , neither elect , nor reprobate , have any power to avoid sinne originall , all of them being conceived and brought forth into the world in the corrupt masse . but as for actuall sin , not only regenerate have power to avoid that , and that in a gracious manner ; but every reprobate hath power to avoid that in a naturall manner . my reason is because though a good worke may be an act supernaturall ; yet a sinfull work cannot be so , but every actuall sin is an act naturall for the ground and substance of it but every naturall & carnall man hath power freely , either to doe any act naturall or to abstaine from doing it , though when they abstaine from doing it , as from committing murther , adultery , theft , slaunder , or the like , they never abstaine from it in a gracious manner : like as any morall good worke , they have libertie to doe , but they cannot doe it in a gracious manner . this proceeds meerly from the spirit of regeneration ; which spirit of regeneration the lord never bestowes upon any reprobate . sect : . thus they teach , and therefore by just consequence they make god the authour of sin ; as it will plainly appeare by these following considerations . . it is ordinary to impute sin to those who have not so great an hand in the production of it , as hath the almighty , by the grounds of this opinion . for first , the devill is called the father of lies , and by the like reason of all other sinnes . and therefore he that committeth sinne , is said to be of the devill , and to be the child of the devill . and sin is called the the worke of the , devill , which the son of god appeared to loose . and why is the devill so called , but because he doth egge and allure men by inward suggestions and outward temptations to fall into sin ? this is all he doth or can doe . but god doth much more , if he necessitate , and by his decree first ; and next by his powerfull and secret working in the soules of men , determine their wills irresistibly to sinen . for to determine is infinitely more then barely to perswade ; for as much as sin must needs follow the determination , but not the perswasion of the will. god is therefore a truer cause of sin , by this doctrine then the devill . . wicked men are esteemed authours of their own offences ; because they plot , purpose , choose , & commit them , and are immediate agents in the acting of them . but god by this opinion doth more : for he overruleth the projects & purposes of wicked men , and by an uncontroulable motion proceeding from an immutable decree , carrieth all their deliberations , resolutions , choices , and actions precisely that very way ; so as they cannot chose but doe as they doe , whatsoever they may think to the contrary . they have indeed ( potentiam in se liberam ) a power in it selfe free to chose what they refuse , or to refuse what they chose , to determine themselves this way or that way , as liketh them best ; but they have not ( liberum usum ) a free use of this their power . god doth determine their will before it hath determined it selfe , and maketh them doe those only actions , which his omnipotent will hath determined , and not which their wills out of any absolute dominion over their own actions , have prescribed . more rightly therefore may god be called the authour of those offences . for deeds whether good or bad are owned more truly by him that overruleth them , then by the servile instruments that only execute and doe them . . wicked counsellours and they who allure and advise men to sin , are accounted by god and men to be the causes of those sins to which they are the perswaders , and have been punished for those misdeeds which others through their instigations have committed . jezabell ahab's wife was reputed and punished as the murtherer of naboth ; because she counselled and contrived the doing of it as we may see , kings . . . but what is counselling to inforcing ? evill counsells may be refused , but an allmighty power cannot be resisted . god therefore that useth this ( according to their doctrine ) in the production of sins , is much more an authour of them , then he that only useth the other . after two leaves spent , first in the charge ; and secondly in proving that god is not the authour of sin in a fumbling manner , and thirdly in representing the doctrine of our divines at pleasure , now at length he comes to make it plainly appeare , that by just consequence they make god the authour of sin , as he saith , will plainly appeare by certaine considerations following : which in few words come but to this in generall , namely , that god doth more then the devill , or wicked counsellours in alluring and advizing others to sin , more then wicked persons in acting of their own sins . but by this discourse of his , he is as farre off as ever from proving that we make god the authour of sin . for consider , either by doing more he understands , that god doth the same which the devill & wicked mē do ; & more : or though he does not the same , yet he doth that which is more then that . if his meaning be that god doth the same which the devill & wicked men doe , this is notoriously untrue , considering thē as tempters , & advizers , and perswaders unto sin . for god on the contrary forbids sin , perswades to repentance , to obedience both by his word and by his spirit ; and indeed the spirit workes not , but by the word which is called the sword of the spirit ; all holines of life is comprised within the compasse of ten commandements ; these were given by the lord frō mount sinai , pronounced by the sound of a trūpet ; to these the lord calls his people saying , stand in the waies and behold , and aske for the old way , which is the good way and walke therein & ye shall find rest unto your soules . for the transgression of these the lord expostulates with thē , heare ô heavens and hearken ô earth , i have nourished and brought up a people , & they have rebelled against me . whē they have gone astray he exhorts the , and that most pathetically to returne by repentance , by promise of salvation , and threatning judgment if they doe not repent . o ierusalem wash thine heart from wickednes , that thou maist be saved , how long shall thy wicked thoughts remaine within thee ? i have seene thy adulteries , and thy neighings , the filthinesse of thy whoredome on the hills , in the feilds , and thine abominations . woe unto thee ô ierusalem , wilt thou not be made cleane ? when shall it once be ? and to provoak them the rather unto repentance , he represents himselfe unto them as easy to be intreated , as slow to wrath , and one that by his patience and long suffering leades them to repentance . and to this end he gives charge to his ministers , namely , by representing the gracious nature of god to admonish them of their sinnes , to call them to repentance , to obedience . and to this purpose to represent his promises which he hath annexed unto godlinesse , both the promises of this life , and the promises of a better life that is to come . yea and his threats also both of judgments in the world to come , to the casting both of body and soule into hell fire ; and thereupon to exhort us to feare him above all others . and judgments of this world , as , famine , pestilence , and the sword of the enemie , to deliver them over into the hands of beastly people , skilfull to destroy ; to send serpents , and cockatrices among them that will not be charmed , and that shall sting them ; and that without all mercy . surely these are not the courses of satan or wicked counsellours . therefore they doe not as god doth , neither doth god doe that which they doe and more also . . if it be said that albeit the lord doth not as the devill doth , and wicked men doe in perswading them to sinne ; yet he doth that which is more then this . i answer , that neverthelesse he cannot be accounted the authour of sinne , in case the doing of this alone doth constitute an agent the authour of sinne . now as formerly i have shewed this was the opinion of dominicus soto , and of the divines of salamancha : yea and vasquez the jesuite professeth , that he was ever of that opinion . againe if to doe more then this , be to become the authour of sin ; both this authour and all that are of his spirit doe maintain as well we , that god doth that which is farre more then this . for i presume he will not deny , but that god is he , and he alone , who doth support our natures in the committing of sin ; & who maintaines our senses in their vigour and quicknesse , without which we could take noe pleasure in sin , and that concurres to every act of sin , in the way of cause efficient , not morally , which alone makes one to become the authour of sin , by the judgment of divines formerly mentioned ; but physically and naturally , which no creature can doe , namely become a naturall coefficient cause to the act of another man's will. nay which is most considerable , i presume this authour hath so much accuratenes in school-learning , as not to deny that when the devill tempts us , or wicked counsellours doe tempt us to sin , god concurres with them in this act , and that in the kind of a cause efficient physicall . for in him we live and move and have our being ; what is it to have our being from him , but that he is the authour of it in the kind of a cause efficient ? in the same sense doe we live in him , and in the same sense doe we move in him . it stands us upon as much to maintaine this , as to maintaine that god is our creatour . for unlesse all things doe subsist in him neither were all things created by him . now this is a great deale more then to perswade . for a weake man is able to perswade , but noe creature is able to performe these parts which god doth in the act of every thing created by by him . so that hereby the reader may evidently perceive , that the discourse is as farre off as ever , from proving god by this doctrine of ours to be the authour of sin , any more then he is constituted the authour of sin by the doctrine of this interpolator . but i am content to examine the things he proposeth particularly and severely . . the devill , saith he , doth only allure men by inward suggestions , and outward temptations to fall into sinne : but god doth much more if he doe necessitate , and by his decree first ; and next by his powerfull and secret working in the soules of men , determine their wills irresistibly to sinne . for to determine is infinitely more then to perswade . now to this i have already answered by shewing . . that albeit god doth more then this , yet seeing he doth not this : if the doing of this alone constitutes one the authour of sin , as many great divines have concurrently maintained ; still god is free from being the authour of sin . this authour barely supposing , not once offering to prove the contrary . . himselfe confesseth that god concurres to the act of every sinne , and that in the kind of a cause efficient naturall . and i may be as bold as to say of this , that it is infinitely more then to perswade ; like as he saith of god's determining the will and necessitating thereof . now i proceed to a more particular examination of his discourse . and here first i wonder not a little at this authour's distinction of the devill 's inward suggestion from his outward temptations . for i confesse freely i know noe outward temptation of satan , distinct from his inward suggestions . outward occasions and provocations to sinne i know none wrought by satan , any farther then as he in some cases is god's instrument , as in afflicting iob. for surely god hath not given over the world , or any part thereof to the goverment of satan ; this is in his own hand still ; and hereby occasions and opportunities are offered from time to time for a man to advantage himselfe in sinfull courses , either in the way of profit , or satisfying his unclean lusts . and arminius confesseth that the administration of arguments and occasions , which provoke to such an act , as cannot be committed by the creature without sinne , if not by gods intention , yet at least according to the creatures affection , and often according to the events that arise therehence . this administration , i say arminius confesseth , doth belong to the divine providence . and these arguments , he saith , are objected & ther to the mind ( of man , ) or to his senses outward or inward ; and that either by the mediate worke of the creatures comming between , or by god's immediate action . and that the end of this divine administration is to make tryall whether the creature will abstaine from sinne , even then , when it is provoked thereunto . as , for the triall of david , was bathsheba going ●o●th to wash her selfe objected to david , whereupon he was inflamed with lusts ioseph was not , though farre more strongly sollicited by the temptations of his wanton mistris . secondly , to necessitate the will or determine the will are noe phrases of our divines . the first is used only by bradwardine ( as at present i remember ) sometimes arch-bishop elect of canterbury ; the other is that phrase of the dominicans . now they are of age and able to answer for themselves . why doth not this authour answer a chapter or two in bradwardine , a chapter or two in alvarez , where they dispute this and resolve the question affirmatively . surely hereby he should performe a worke more worthy of a scholasticall divine , then by so hungry a discourse as this . secondly , consider neither bradwardine maintaines that god necessitates ; nor alvarez that god determines the will to sinne , but to every naturall act , in which kind of acts sinne is to be found : why then should this auhour carry himselfe thus in his crimination ? we know sin is meerly privative in the formall notion thereof ; an obliquitie such as concerning which , austine hath long agoe deliverd , that it hath noe efficient cause , but deficient only . and divers waies divines have shewed how god may be the authour of the act , yet not the authour o● the sin , and illustrated it by various similitudes . as of a man riding upon a lame horse , he makes him goe , but doth not make him halt . the sun shining upon a dung-mixton , makes it evaporate , but doth not make it stinke . the sun makes flowers to evaporate and send forth their favours as well as a dung-mixton ; but that the one evaporates a sweet odour the other an unsavory , is frō the nature of things themselves on which the sun beates . in like sort the sun by the heat thereof provokes all things to engender according to their kinds , even frogs and toades & snakes , as well as other creatures profitable for the use of man in the way of food ; yea of vipers flesh good use is made in the way of physicke . and god knowes how to make good use even of the sinnes of men . and of the rage and malice of satan . if an underw-heele being out of his place , the upper wheele in a jacke or clocke will set him going in a wrong way , as well as all the rest in a right way ; his motion is from the upper whele , his irregular motion from himselfe . a good scribe meeting with moist paper will make but sorry worke the writing is from himselfe , the blurring from the moistnesse of the paper on this very question whether the act of sinne be from god , aquinas maintaining the affirmative , illustrates it by a distinction of the halting motion of a lame legge ; the motion , saith he , is from the soule , the 〈◊〉 is frō the imperfection of the organ , the infirmitie of the legge . yet this authour carrieth it hand over head , as if to be the authour of the action , were to be the sinne ; not considering that himselfe maintaines , that god is the authour of the action , and that in the kind of a cause efficient naturall . thirdly , when bradwardine maintaines that god necessitates the will to every good act thereof , he withall professeth that he necessitates it ad liberum actum suum that is to worke every act thereof , freely . soe when alvarerz maintaines that god determinates the will to every act thereof , he withall maintaines that god determines the will to worke free ye and so aquinas . for when he workes upon contingent causes , he moves thē to bring forth their effects contingently ; like as when he workes upon necessary causes , he moves them to produce their effects necessarily . and like as to move contingent causes to produce their effects contingently , is to move them to produce their effects with a possibility to the contrary . soe to move free causes , to produce their effects freely , is to move them to produce their effects with an active power to the contrary . but to proceed , whereas he saith , that sinne must needs follow the determination ; it is as true . . in this authour's judgment , that it must needs follow upon god's cōcurrence to this act . if he say that this concurrēce is necessary to every act , i answer , it is necessary to the substance of every act , but not at all required to the sinne ; though this authour carieth it blindfold after this manner . secondly , so say we is determination required to the substance of every act . and gods concourse with the creature is not coordinate , like as one man concurres with another in moving a timber logge , which is the expression of the jesuites , thereby manifesting the vilenesse of their opinion , as we can demonstrate , and that more waies then one by evident demonstration , as i have allready shewed in my vindiciae . let this authour answer those digressions if he can , i am confident he will never answer them while his head is hot ; nor all the rabble of the arminians . we know god is the first cause , and all other are but second causes in comparison to him . yet we willingly confesse that the providence of god is wonderfull and of a mysterious nature in this ; but such as whereunto the scripture gives pregnant testimonie , as scarce to any thing more . so jealous he is least his providence should be denied in evill , wherein indeed it is most wonderfull ; and he takes unto himselfe the hardning of men's hearts , and blinding of their mindes , and prostituting them to abominable courses , even to vile affections and thereby to punish sinne with sin , as rom : . therein saith the apostle , they received the recompence of their errour . this hath austine also by scripture suggestion testified at large in his book . de gratiâ & libero arbitrio in two large chap : & likewise in his fifth book against iulian the pelagian & third chap : this also the adversaries have been driven to confesse in a strange manner , as to give instance first in bellarmine whose words are these . god saith he , praesidet ipsis voluntatibus easque regit & gubernat , torquet & fl●ctit in iis invisibiliter operando , ut licet vitio proprio malae sint , tamen à divina providentia ad unum potius malum quàm ad aliud , non positivè , sed permissive ordinentur . god is president over the wills , and so rules and governes , wrests & turns them , working invisibly in them , that albeit through their own fault they are evill , yet by the divine providence they are ordered to one evill rather then to another , not positively but permissively what one of our divines hath said more then this comes to , or so much , professing that god rules and governes the wills of men by his invisible operation , ordering them to one evill rather then to another which st. austine calles inclining them ? and the prophet david we know prayes , that god would encline his heart unto his testimonies and not to covetousnesse , arguing thereby that god hath power to incline a man's heart to covetousnesse . but bellarmine saith more then this , in saying that , god wrestes and bends them , torquet & flectit ; those are his words ; although he seemes to blast all this in the end by saying that this is done permissivè , by permission , in flat contradiction to himselfe , whose expresse purpose is to shew that god doth not only suffer wicked men to performe evill acts , and to desert the godly , but somewhat else also , namely , to rule and governe their w●lls , to wrest and bend them by an invisible working in them , to commit one ev●●● rather then another . secondly consider their generall doctrine of congruous grace , standing in a necessary conformity and correspondency to another vile doctrine of theirs concerning the foreknowledge of god , called by them scientia media by this doctrine of theirs god foresees in what ease and by what motives man being moved to abstaine from this or that sinne , he will abstaine from it : and againe in what case and after what manner being moved to abstaine from sinne , he will not abstaine from it and god makes choice at his pleasure how to move him , whether after such a manner in which case he foresees he will abstaine from sinne ; or after another manner in which case he foresees he will not ab●●aine . now who is so blind as not to observe , that as often as a man sinneth , it is the will of god , that is the decree of god he shall sin , by the very groundes received by our adversaries . thus much as touching my first answer concerning the necessary con●equence of sinne upon god's operation to be acknowledged by our adversaries , according to the tenour of their own doctrine , as well as by us . . my second answer is this . albeit god determines the will to any vertuous act , morally good ; whether in the way of doing some morall good , or in the way of abstaining from some motall evill ; yet unlesse god give man some faith and love , as fountaines out of which every morall worke must proceed , that it may be acceptable with god ; such an one shall necessarily sinne , though not as touching the act done , yet as touching the manner of doing ; for as much as without true faith and love he can neither performe any morall good worke , nor abstaine from any morall evill worke in a gracious manner . now let every sober man judge , whether god be bound to give every man faith and love , without which all is one as touching the preserving a man from sinne in generall , whether the will of man be determined by god , to an act morally good , or morally evill . in each of which god determines the will only to the substance of the act : so that whether god cooperates to the substance of the act or noe , and whether this cooperation be by way of determining the will or noe ; still there will be a necessary consequence of sinne to every act of man , if god doth not bestow the spirit of regeneration upon him , which spirit of god we know was given to our first parents ; though not under this notion of the spirit of regeneration , and whereof they were justly bereaved upon the first sinne committed by them ; and because all we have been derived from them since their fall , therefore we have received our natures from them deprived of the spirit of god , and therein continue untill such time as it pleaseth god for christ sake , to restore it unto us , which he doth in regenerating us . thirdly , and lastly upon the very permission of sin , it followes necessarily that sin shall be , by the doctrine not of piscator only , but of vorstius and arminius also ; yea and of the learned amongst the papists , as navarettus and penottus : and the very definition of permission of sinne by arminians justifies it ; as also the jesuites doctrine concerning gratia congruâ . for if god will not afford that grace , upon the grant whereof men will abstaine from sin , as god well knowes ; but such a grace , upon the grant whereof man will abstaine from sin , which also is well known unto god ; doth ●t not manifestly follow that such a one shall sinne , though not sinne necessarily , but contingently and freely . . in the next place he tells us that wicked men are esteemed authours of their offences : now by the way this is not so ; to be a sinner is one thing to be an authour of sinne is another thing . and to be an authour of sinne is in reference rather to anothers sinne , then to ones owne . and martinius tells me that , authour est cujus autoritate & sententiâ aliquid fit , cujus testimonio ut aliquid credamus , adducimur . qui hortatur ut fiat . itaque authorem & dissuasorem cicero opponit . he is the authour by whose authority and judgment a thing is done , by whose testimonie we are induced to beleive ought ; who exhorts to the doing of ought . and therefore cicero makes authour and disswader opposite . but to proceed with this authour who set the printer on work for the edition of this peice . men , he saith , doe plot purpose , choose and commit offences , and are immediate agents in the acting of them . but god by this opinion doth more ; for he overuleth the projects and purposes of wicked men , and by an uncontroulable motion , proceeding from an immutable decree , carrieth all their deliberations , resolutions , choices , and actions precisely that very way , so as they cannot choose but do , as they doe , whatsoever they may thinke to the contrary . to which i answer , that it becomes every man to give the divell his right , & and not make him worse then he is , nor wicked men neither . now noe wicked man doth will or choose sinne as sinne nemo vult esse incontinens , saith aristotle , although they doe such things as doe sufficiently evidence their incontinent disposition . for the object of the will is only good ; neither can any thing be willed by man , but , sub ratione boni , under the shew of good : whether this good be in the kind of profit , or in the kind of pleasure , or in the kind of honesty . so lucretia when she killed her selfe , she did it for the preservation of the integrity of her mind in the opinion of the world , and that they might know that she consented not unto tarquinius ; but was forced by him . so then the act is it they doe or choose to doe for some motive or other , which whether it be pleasure or profit , or credit they get thereby , that makes not the act sinfull , but only that it is against some law or other , forbidding it and this act , ( all sides confesse ) is the worke of god , as well as the worke of man ; as in whom we move , like as in him we live , and have our being . and bradwardine maintaines that of every act of the creature god is a more immediate cause then the creature it selfe , who●e act it is . this he proves of the creatures conservation , of the creatures action , of the creatures motiō ; & to this he proceeds by certaine degrees . and in all this god doth not transgresse any law , as man doth too often in the performing of many a naturall act , and only in performing acts naturall is sinne committed , never in performing any act supernaturall ; all such acts are in a peculiar manner the work of grace . god overruleth no man's good projects or purposes , otherwise then as when accepting their intentions he will not have them put such in execution because perhaps he hath reserved that for another time & person . as when david was purposed to build god an house , & was encouraged therein by nathan : yet the lord sent nathan shortly unto david to give him to understand , that he reserved that work for solomon his son ; yet so well accepting david's purpose that he promised to build his house . but if god at any time overruleth the wicked projects and purposes of men , whether good or evill , let us blesse him rather for this then curse him ; by cursing them that maintaine this good providence . yet in overruling them , whether he doth it immediately , or by the ministry of his good angells ; not by working immediately upon the will , as this authour dreameth . for that is not the way to worke agreably to the reasonable nature of man ( though so he worke also by generall influence affoarded cōmon to all agents ) but by representing to the understanding congruous motives to divert them from that they doe intend ; whether in a gracious manner , as he diverted david from his purpose to massacre the whole house of nabal ; or only in a naturall way , whereby he diverts wicked men from their ungodly designes , by representing the danger thereof , to make them feare , & so to restraine them . will the devill himselfe be over prone to blaspheme god for this ? yet in this alone he doth more then either the devill or man can doe ; though this be not all that he doth . for he doth cooperate to every designe and execution of the creature , be it never so abominable ; which neither man , nor angells can doe . and he hath power to give over unto satan , and to harden any man , and that more effectully then any devill can doe . the devill could not say with truth that he would harden pharaoh's heart , that he should not let israel goe . nor when he had let them goe , i will harden pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them , to bring them back . the devill could not say in truth , as the lord did to david , i will take thy wives before thine eyes , and give them to thy neighbour , and he shall lye with thy wives in the sight of the sunne . nor as he said to ieroboam , behold i will rent the kingdome out of the hands of solomon , and will give ten tribes to thee . nay the very permissiō of sin so as whereby it shall infallibly come to passe , is not in the power of any creature , but in god alone . and shall it follow , that because god doth more , both as touching the act it selfe , and touching the sinfull condition of it , then any creature can doe , therefore god is the authour of sinne ? whereas when god moves a man or carrieth him on to any good morall workes , whether in doing that which is vertuous , or abstaining from that which is vitious , this man shall certainely sinne , though not in so great a degree , unlesse god be pleased over and above to regenerate him , and to bestow faith , and love on him , for as much as in this case , though he doe an act vertuous , yet shall he not doe it in a gracious māner . & though he doe abstaine frō an act vitious yet he shall not abstaine frō it in a gracious manner . let this man therefore proceed , & maintaine ( if he thinks good ) that except god doth bestow the spirit of regeneration upon all and every one throughout the world , he is the authour of sinne , not only when he moves them to such acts which are evill , but also when he moves them to the doing of such as are vertuous , or to the abstaining from those that are vitious . as for his phrases noe wise man will regard them , but only such as are content to feed on huskes for want of better food . as , when he talkes of motion uncontroulable , which makes a noise , as if men's wills would controule his motion , but cannot : whereas god as the first mover moves the creature most congruously unto his nature ; without which motion of his the creature could not move at all . the like noyses makes the phrase immutable decree ; as empty things many times give the greatest sound : whereas by vertue of god's immutable decree it is , that it cannot otherwise be ; then that as necessary things cannot but come to passe necessarily ; so contingent things cannot but come to passe contingently , and the free actions of men freely . but by the way he manifest's how he licks his lips , at a mutable decree of god , even of that god with whom , as st. iames speaketh , there is no variablenesse , nor shadow of change . he doth acknowledge , we maintaine , potentiam in se liberam ; but then he saith , we doe not maintaine , liberum usum ; a most absurd distinction . for noe power deserves to be stiled free , save that it is of free use and exercise . and what a prodigious thing is it to affirme , that it is not within the almighty power of god to cause that this or that shall be done by a reasonable creature freely : this is it that bradwardine proposeth to the judgment of all to consider , whether it be not an unreasonable thing to deny this unto god. god doth determine their will before it hath determined it selfe , and maketh them doe those only actions , which his omnipotent will hath determined , and not which their wills out of any absolute dominion over their own actions , have prescribed . thus he relates the opinion of our divines ; whereas neither determining , nor necessitating ( as i said before ) are the expressions of our divines , but of papists ; yet he laies not this to the charge of papist's : noe nor to the charge of bellarmine , for saying that god doth not only rule , and governe , but wrest and bend them , and that to one evill rather then to an other . if scholars of our universities use any such phrases , it is no other then they find in use among school-divines . it is true indeed jesuites oppose the dominicans in this . this authour sides with the jesuites , but why doth he not take to taske any one chapter in alvarez on this point to answer , to overthrow their grounds , which are no other then the very word of god , and cleare reason doth justifie . and the ground of the jesuites in opposing , is meerely an invention of their own , concerning a certaine knowledge of god called a middle knowledge ; a vile invention , and a palpable untruth , and controulable of manifest contradiction . for they suppose a thing knowable by god , as future , before god's will hath passed upon it to make it future , being in it's own nature meerly possible ; and consequently cannot passe out of the condition of a thing meerly possible , into the condition of a thing future without a cause . now noe cause can be devised hereof with any colour of reason , but the will of god. for first , the cause hereof must be eternall , seeing the thing it selfe , of the cause whereof we dispute , is eternall to wit , the fruition of any thing . this i say was eternall , for it is known with god from all eternity . now there is noe eternall cause to be found , but in god alone , therefore the cause why things meerly possible in their own nature , became future , and that from everlasting , must be found in god alone . therefore it must either be the will of god ; or the knowledge of god that did make it future ; and seing the knowledge of god rather supposeth them to be future , then makes them so ; what remaines but that the will of god must necessarily be the cause hereof ? nay consider whether the jesuites themselves doe not manifest more ingenuity by farre , then this boisterous theologue , that thinks to carry all with the blast of his words , the resolution of whose arguments generally , neither having the word of god for their ground ; nor any confest principle of reason . whereas not the greatest , angell of god will take upon him such an authoritative manner of discourse . for did we grant , that god by his allmighty will did impose any necessity upon our wills . yet suarez confesseth that so to worke , doth neither involve any contradiction , nor exceed the allmighty power of god : whereas we are ready to prove and have already proved , that their doctrine of god's concourse without subordination of the second causes to the first , implies flat contradiction we say the wills determination of it selfe is the worke of god , otherwise faith and love and every gracious act shall not be the worke of god. againe the wills determination of it selfe , is no other then the wills operation ; and this authour that opposeth us dares not deny the wills opperation to be the worke of god. but what school divine can he produce that delivers himselfe in so absurd a manner ; as to say that god first determines the will , and that afterwards the will determines it selfe ; especially speaking of such actions of the will as are produced by the power of nature ? the wills determination of it selfe , we say , is the worke of god moving the creature agreably to the nature thereof ; that is to be carried necessarily to that which is it's end , and appeares to be good in genere convenientis : and freely to the meanes , which appeare to be good , in genere conducentis , as fit to pronounce the end intended . all confessing ( durand excepted ) that god works the act ; the question whether he works the act absolutely , the will a second agent subordinate unto god , as to it's creatour ? or conditionally , modo vellimus , provided that we will it , god the first agent subordinate to the will of the creature ? this authour will have it to be wrought by god , that is conditionally , in dependence upon , and expectation of the operation of the creature , which we say is most absurd first because thus the first agent is made subordinate to the second agent , which is most unaturall . secondly , observe a manifest contradiction . for the question is about , actus volendi , the act of willing , in man. now if god produce this act upon supposition , that man produceth this act , then the same act is produced by god upon supposition , that it is produced by man. if it be produced by man , what need is there of god's producing it by way of supplement ? thirdly , by this meanes the thing is made the condition of it selfe . for hereby it is said , this act is made upon condition that it doth exist ; & so the selfe same thing shall be before & after it selfe . . thus man's production of the act shall be noe worke of god , which holds off faith and repentance , as well as of any naturall act , in this authours opinion . fiftly , it is not possible the will can produce the act unlesse god produceth it , if then god doth not produce it unlesse the will doth produce it , in this case there shall be noe act produced . for if i goe not to london unlesse you goe with me ; nor you goe to london unlesse i goe with you ; here is no going at all till one saith i say i goe , and his resolution carrieth the other with him if the others depend thereupon . whereas to helpe at a dead lift the jesuiticall doctrine of , scientia media , middle knowledge , is called in after this manner ; god foreseing that at such an instant the will of man will produce such an act , if god be pleased to concurre ; and upon this foreknowled●e god resolves to concurre this doctrine i have already confounded by shewing the apparent falsity of this supposition . for seeing the wills producing such an act at such an instant , is a thing merly possible in it's own nature , & no more future then not future ; it is impossible that this should passe out of the condition of a thing meerly possible into the conditiō of a thing future without a cause : and noe cause hereof can be but the will of god , as i have often proved . it followes that the wills producing such an act , depends rather upon the will of god to have it produced , then on the contrary , that gods producing such an act , dependes upon the creatur's will to produce it . as for that which followes of the absolute dominion that the will of the creature should have over it's action ( i presume he meanes independent ) it sounds more like the voice of the devill , then of a sober christian . yet it is more then i know that lucifer himselfe challengeth any such absolute dominion over his actions unto himselfe ; if he doth , i know noe greater sinne that hee or the creature can be guilty of ; unlesse in case grosse ignorance doth excuse it . to deny god to be ▪ the first agent is to deny his god-head ; and if hee be , primum agens , hee must be primum liberum too , the first free agent . and to make our selves to be prima libera , the first free agents , what is other then to advance our selves into the very throne of god's soveraigntie ; and doe wee not feare least his wrath smoake us thence . and if all this that hee contends for were granted him , that nothing but mere necessitie were found in the motion of men's wills ; yet suarez will justifie us from speaking contradiction , or delivering ought that exceeds the compasse of god's omnipotencie . and what if all the world were innocent , yet god should not be unjust in casting the most innocent creature into hell fire ; as medina professeth , and that by the unanimous consent of divines , and vasquez the jesuite acknowledgeth this to be in the power of god as he is lord of life and death , and in the last chapter of the booke , de praedestinatione & gratiâ which goes under austin's name , there is an expresse passage to justifie it . and albeit that worke be not austin's , yet it is lately justified to be the worke of a great follower of austin's , and as orthodoxe as he ; namely , the worke of fulgentius as raynaudus the jesuite hath lately proved , and justified that passage also ; together with that which is usually brought by school-divines to prove it out of the twelfth chapter of wisedome , and shewes the right reading , as followed by austin and gregory . and withall represents a pregnant passage taken out of the fifteenth homily of macarius to the same purpose . and out of chrysostome in his . de compunctione cordis , about the end thereof . and out of austin upon psalme the seventieth , about the beginning . and to these he addeth ariminensis , cameracensis , serarius , and lorinus , all maintaining the same . and this is evident by consideration of the power , which it pleased the lord to execute upon his holy son , and our blessed saviour , and by the power which he gives us over brute creatures . this i say , if all that he contends for were granted , should rather be concluded therehence , namely , that in this case the creature should be innocent , then that god should be the authour of sinne ; especially considering that god performes in all this noe other thing then belongs unto him of necessitie ; as without which his moving of the second causes , it were impossible the creature should worke at all , which we have made good , by shewing the manifest absurdity of their contrary doctrine , who maintaine a bare concourse divine either in subordination unto the agency of the creature , or without subordinating the operation of the creature , to motion divine . but we doe subordinate it , as without which the second cause could not worke at all , and by vertue whereof it doth worke , and that freely , so farre forth as liberty of will is competent to a creature ; but not so as to make the creature compeere with his creatour . let man be a second free agent , but set our god that made us evermore be the first free agent ; least otherwise we shall deny him the same power over his creatures , that the potter hath over the clay of the same lumpe to make one vessell unto honour and another unto dishonour . this power in my maker , the lord hath given me eyes to discerne as taught us in his holy word , and an heart to submit unto it ; and to his providence in governing my will , even in the worst actions that ever were committed by me , without any repining humour against his hand ; though i thinke it lawfull for us in an holy manner to expostulate with god sometimes in the prophets language and say , lord why hast thou caused us to erre from thy waies and hardened our hearts against thy feare ? which yet i confesse he brings to passe at noe time , infundendo malitiam , by infusing any malice into me , who naturally have more then enough of that leaven in me ; but , non infundendo gratiam , not quickning in me that holy feare , which he hath planted in me , of which grace i confesse willingly , i have a great deale lesse then i desire , though the least measure of it is a great deale more then i doe or can deserve . neither shall i ever learne of this authour after his manner to blaspheme god if at any time hee shall harden my heart against his feare . though this authour speakes commonly with a full and foule mouth , yet his arguments are lanke and leane ; and of noe substance but words . as when hee saith that , god over-rules men's wills by our opinion . now to overrule● a man is to carry him in despight of his teeth . wee say noe such thing but that god moves every creature to worke agreably to it's nature , necessary things necessarily , contingent things contingently , free agents freely ; though nothing comes to passe by the free agency of any creature , but what god from all eternity , by his unchangable counsell hath determined to come to passe . as the eleventh article of ireland doth professe by the unanimous consent of the archbishop , bishops and clergy of that kingdome , when those articles were made . so i speake warily and circumspectly , the rather because one doctour heylin doth in a booke intituled , the history of the sabbath , professe , chapter . page . that , that whole booke of articles is now called in , and in the place thereof , the articles of the church of ireland confirmed by parliament in that kingdome . anno . a thing i willingly confesse at first sight seemed incredible unto mee ; namely , that articles of religion agreed upon in the dayes , of king iames , should be revoked in the dayes of king charles ; but expect to heare the truth of that relation . for the authour thereof hath never as yet deserved so much credit at my hands , as to be believed in such a particular as this . but to returne , this authours text is nothing answerable to the margent . for first , imperare to command , is one thing , and to over-rule is another thing : though he that doth , imperare command ought , is commonly accounted the authour thereof , as a cause morall , from whom comes the beginning of such a worke . but utterly deny that god commands evill , and the truth is wee acknowledge noe other notion of evill then such as the apostle expresseth in calling it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an incongruitie to the law of god , which law commands somethings and forbids other things . i come to his third reason . . i grant wicked counsellours and perswaders are deservedly accounted the authors of sinne : the common use and acception of the words as i shewed in answer to the first , is observed to denote such . therefore cicero makes authour and disswader opposite ; and by law they are punishable in the same degree with the actors . but god is noe counsellour or perswader to any lewd course , but forbids it , and disswades it , and that with denuntiation of the greatest judgments among trangressours . . i willingly confesse that councelling is farre inferiour to enforcing ; yet in scripture phrase earnest intreaty , or command is oftentimes exprest by compelling as mat , . . mark : . . luk : . . gala : . , and . . sam : . . chron : . . and noe marvaile for hereby many times men are drawen full sore against their wills to doe that which they would not . it is true god's power cannot be resisted , but neither hath any man any will to resist that motion of god whereby he workes agreable to their natures , then indeed there were place for resisting . if the lord carrieth on a covetous person , such as achan to covet a wedge of gold and a babylonish garment , and coveting it move him accordingly to take it , and convey it away secretly , and hide it in his tent , what resistance doth he make in all this ? or what is done in all this lesse agreably to his covetous disposition , then to the disposition of toades and addars , when he moves them according to their nature to sting and poyson ? so he moved the babylonians compared to serpents and cockatrices to sting a wicked people . doe not the scriptures plainly professe that god did send them ? is not assur in this respect called , the rod of god's wrath and the staffe in his hand ? was it not called the lords indignation ? is he not compared to an axe and a sawe , shall the axe boast it selfe against him that heweth therewith ? or shall the saw extoll it selfe against him that moveth it ? still he confounds the act with the sinfulnesse thereof , speaking of god's producing sinnes ; whereas sinne is never produced , it being only an obliquity consequent unto the act of such a worker as is subject to a law . and our adversaries confesse that god is the cause of the act ; as well as we . yet will they not hereby be driven ; to professe that in producing the act he produceth the sin . as for that which he speaks of inforcing , we may well pitty him , that when he wants strength of reason , he supplies that by phrases . we deny that god inforceth any man's will. nay it is the generall rule of schooles , that , voluntas non potest cogi , the will cannot be forced : we maintaine that every act of the will , especially in naturall things ( such as a sinfull act must needs be : for only gracious acts are supernaturall ) is not only voluntary ( which is sufficient to preserve it from being forced ) but free also , by as much libertie as the creature is capable of , only we deny that the will of man is primum liberum , a first free agent , that is the prerogative of god alone , the first mover of all , and the supreme agent thus : i have dispatched my answer to his first reason consisting of three parts i come unto the second . sect : . if we could find out a king that should so carry himselfe in procuring the ruine and the offences of any subjects , as ( by this opinion ) god doth in the affecting of the damnation and transgressions of reprobates , we would all charge him with the ruine and sinnes of those his subjects . who would not abhorre , saith moulin , a king speaking thus . i will have this man hang●d , and that i may hang him justly , i will have him murder or steale . this king saith he should not only make an innocent man miserable , sed & sceleratum , but wicked too , and should punish him for that offence ( cujus ipse causa esset ) of which himselfe was the cause . it is a cleare case , tiberius , as suetonius reports , having a purpose to put some virgins to death , because it was not lawfull among the romans to strangle virgins , caused them all to be deflouered by the hang-man , that so they might be strangled . who will not say that tiberius was the principall authour of the deflouring of those maides ? in like manner ( say the supralapsarians ) god hath a purpose of putting great store of men to the second death ; but because it is not lawfull for him by reason of his justice , to put to death men innocent and without blame , he hath decreed that the devill shall defloure them , that afterwards he may damne them it followeth therefore that god is the maine cause of those their sinnes . if a king should carry himselfe as god did in hardning pharaoh's heart that he should not let israel goe ; and when he had let israel goe , to harden his heart that he should follow after them ; we would acknowledge such a one , not to be man but god. and then surely whatsoever our arminians would thinke of such a one , we would thinke noe otherwise then solomon did of him of whom he professed , that , he made all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill . if god doth but permit a man to will this or that , necesse est , saith arminius , it must needs be , ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum , that noe kind of argument shall perswade such one to abstaine from willing it . and i hope arminius hath as great auhority with this authour , as mr. moulin deserves to have with us . noe king hath power to dispense any such providence as this . st. paul tells us plainly , that , god hath ordained some unto wrath ; and as he hath made of the same lumpe some vessells unto honour , so hath he made other vessells unto dishonour . the lord professeth that he kept abimelech from sinning against him . thus the lord could deale with all if it pleased him ; why doth he not ? is it not for the manifestation of his own glory ? for to this purpose he hath made all things . and that , he suffers with long patience vessells of wrath prepared to destruction . and what to doe doth he suffer them ? but to continue and persevere in their sinfull courses without repentance ; the apostle plainly tells us that it is , to declare his wrath and make his power known . this is not the voice of any doctor of ours now a dayes , but of st. paul. and shall mr. moulin be brought in to affront st. paul ? for recompence let the jesuits be heard to whom the nation of the arminians are beholden for their principall grounds ; wherefore doth god give effectuall grace unto one and not unto another , but because he hath elected the one and rejected the other ? and i appeale to every sober christian , whether the absolutenesse of reprobation doth not as invincibly follow herehence as the absolutenesse of election . but touching mr. moulin , i have heard that doctor ames somtimes wished that he had never medled in this argument . i am not of doctor ames his mind in this ; though it were i thinke most fit every one should exercise himselfe in those questions , wherein by the course of his studies he hath been most conversant ; so should the church of god enjoy , plus dapis & rixae multo minus , invidiaeque . i doe admire mr. moulin in his conference with cayer as also upon the eucharist , and on purgatory , he hath my heart when i read his consolalations to his breathren of the church of france ; as also intreating of the love of god. i would willingly learne french to understand him only , and have along time desired , & still to get any thing that he hath written . i highly esteem him in his anatomie though i doe not like all and every passage ; yet but few are the passages wherein i differ from his opinion . i have been very sory to observe how by his doctrine in the point of reprobation he overthrowes his own orthodox doctrine in the point of election . i would he would answer sylvester who hath replied to his admirable letters written to monsieur balzak . i could be well content , were i once free , to supply what is wanting to waleus his apologie for him against corvinus . but to the point , the passage here proposed by him is i willingly confesse somewhat harsh . i will have this man hang'd , and that i may hang him justly i will have him murther or steale . but compare it with that of st. paul formerly mentioned , god suffers the vessells of wrath prepared to destruction , that he may declare his wrath , and make his power known . and that of eli's children , they obeyed not the voice of their father , because the lord would slay them . and that amaziah would not heare : for it was of the lord that he might deliver them into his hands , because they sought the gods of edom. and that of ieremiah doubtlesse because the wrath of the lord was against ierusalem and iuda , till he had cast them out of his presence , therefore zedekiah rebelled against the king of babel . and observe how neare mr. moulin is to expose these holy passages of scripture and the doctrine contained in them in like manner unto scorne , ere he is aware . and let him soberly consider , and without any humour of complying with our adversaries out of a desire to charme them who will not be charmed , to what end god doth finally permit some to persevere in sinne , and can he find any other but this , for the manifestation of the glory of his vindicative justice in their condemnation ? and without any desire to charme , i have shewed plainly , that god doth not permit any man to sinne , and finally to persevere in sin to the end that he may damnethem : but that he both permits them finally in sin , and damnes them for their sinne , for the declaration of his wrath and power on them ; and also that he may declare the riches of his glory , upon the vessells of his mercy , whom he hath prepared unto glory : if he put a difference between permission of sinne , and a will that they shall sinne ; i would entreate him not to stumble at this . for what difference between god's will to permit man to sinne , and to will that man shall sin by his permission : and the tragicall acts committed on the holy son of god by herod and pilate , the gentiles and people of israel , the apostles say not they were permitted by god , but that they were predetermined by the hand and counsell of god. mr. moulin's care is to avoid harsh expressions ; & it is a commendable care . for why should we causlesly expose the truth of god to be the worse thought of , and provoke men to stumble at it by unnecessary harshnesse ? yet i find the scripture it selfe delivered by the holy prophets and apostles is nothing so scrupulous . malim dicere , saith mr. moulin , i had rather say , deum non decrevisse dare alicui gratiam , quâ convertatur & credat ; that god hath decreed not to give some one grace whereby to be converted and believe ; quâm dicere eum decrevisse ut homo sit incredulus & impoenitens , then to say god hath decreed that man should be incredulous and impenitent . and he gives his reason thus . vox enim decernendi aptior est ad ea designanda , quae deus statuit facere , quàm ea quibus statuit non mederi . for to decree is fitter to denote such things as god hath purposed to doe , then such things as he hath purposed not to cure . and indeed the ancients in this sense take the word predestination , to be only of such things as god himselfe purposed to worke ; as grace and glory , and the damnation of impenitent sinners . but if god decrees not to cure impenitency and infidelity in some ; judge whether upon this ground . it may not well be said , that god decrees that the impenitency and infidelitie of some shall continue uncured and mr. monlin confesseth that god decreed that the jewes should put christ to death . his words are these , deus vetuit homicidium , idem tamen decrevitut iudaei christum morte afficerent . god forbad murther yet he decreed that the iewes should kill christ . yet by the way consider , god hath no need of the sinne of man , that he may put him to death justly . for undoubtedly god could annihilate any creature that he hath made , the most holy angells without any blemish to his justice . yea by power absolute he could cast the most innocent creature into hell fire , and continue yet just still , as formerly hath been shewed , and raynaudus justifies , and represents variety of testimonies for this , not only of school-divines , one of whom professeth that it is concors omnium theologorum sententia , the common opinion of divines ; but of the ancient fathers also . and therefore though to strangle virgins was not lawfull for tiberius ; yet a greater & more severe worke then this is lawfull for god. neither doth god cōmand any impure course to any , but under pain of eternall damnatiō forbids it . but as he hardened pharaoh's heart that he should not let i srael goe ; so can he harden any man's heart to doe as foule a work as this . and st. paul testifies that he gave up the heathens to their hearts lusts , unto uncleanes , to defile their own bodies between themselves , which turned the truth of god into a lie , & worshipped & served the creature forsaking the creatour , who is blessed for ever amen for this cause god gave them up to vile affections ; for even the women , did change the naturall use into that which is against nature . and likewise the men left the naturall use of the women , and burned in their lusts one toward another , and man with man wrought filthinesse . and this is noted by the apostle to have been a work of judgment . for it followes , they received in themselves such recompence of their errours as was meet . i grant tiberius was the principall authour of deflowring those maides . for he commanded it , and that , as i have shewed , makes a man the authour of a crime , both out of school-divines , and out of oratours ; but god gave no such cōmand to these heathens thus to defile themselves . and this authour doubts not , but god cooperates to the substance of every act ; notwithstanding the absoute dominion of the will over her actions , for which he pleades . and it cannot be denied unlesse the word of god be therewithall denied , that , in him we move , as well as in him we live and have our being . and though god gave not commandement to absalom . to defile his fathers concubines , yet he tells david saying ; i will take thy wives before thine eyes , and give them to thy neigbour , and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. for thou did'st it secretly , but i will doe this thing before all israel , and before the sun. it is utterly untrue which this authour obtrudes upon us , as if we thought it unlawfull , for god by reason of his justice to put to death men innocent and without blame . was any more innocent then the son of god ? yet he gave him to suffer somewhat more then the death for the sins of men . neither must we be gull'd with his phrases of the devills deflouring of men , when by him they are carried away into abominable courses , so as to oppose scripture & blaspheme god , the language of the holy ghost being this that all the outrages committed upon the holy son of god by herod and pontius pilate , the gentiles and people of israel , were such as , god's hand and counsell had before determined to be done . and the like cruelties or worse were executed upon the saints of god by their kings , who imploied their soveraigne power in executiō of the beast's behests ; yet this is called the will of god. god hath put into their hearts to fullfill his will , and to agree to give their kingdomes to the beast untill the word of god be fulfilled . and the truth is if god permit such abominable courses and hardens men's hearts , occasion being offered they will commit them , according to the common proverbe . he must needs goe whom the devill drives . and the very definition of the permission of sinne given by arminius doth convince this , though he carrieth himselfe very superficiarily explicating god's providence in this , and the nature of obduration ; which i have prosecuted at large in my vindiciae , in answer to bellarmine , especially where i treat of the abduration of pharaoh chap : . neither doe we make damnation the end whereunto god permits sinne ; but both permisson for sinne and damnation for sinne , we make the meanes tending to another end , namely , the manifestation of god's glory in the way of justice vindicative , which in scripture phrase is called the declaration of his wrath . and to make god the authour of sinne by these courses , is clearely to charge the holy ghost with blasphemie , seing the holy ghost gives cleare testimony to all this in the word of god. sect. . that god is the authour of men's salvation and conversion , all sides grant ; and yet he doth noe more in the procuring them then these men report him to doe in the reprobates impenitency and damnation the salvation and conversion of the elect , say they , he hath absolutely and antecedently , without the foresight of any deserving of theirs , reselved upon , and by irresistable meanes in their severall generations , draweth them to believe , repent , and indure to the end , that so they might be saved , and his absolute decree accomplished . on the other side , the damnation , the sinnes , and the finall impenitency of reprobates , he hath of his alone will and pleasure peremptorily decreed ; this his decree he executeth in time drawing them on by his unconquerable power and providence from sinne to sin , till they have made up their measure , and in the end have inflicted on them that eternall vengeance , which he had provided for them . what difference is here in the course which god taketh for the conversion and salvation of the elect , and the obduration and damnation of the reprobates ? and therefore what hindereth but that god ( by their grounds ) may as truely be stiled the prime cause and authour of the sinnes of the one , as of the conversion of the other ? the fathers thought it a plaine case ; and therefore they did make sinne an object of prescience , and not predestination and bent the most of those arguments by wich they refuted this foule assertion , against an absolute , irresistable and necessitating decree . as i could easily shew , but that i feare to be over long . only i will cite some few of those authour's words whom the learned & reverend bishop hath alleadged in favour and for the defence of the predestinarians , and the maintainers of gotteschalk's opinion the church of lyous in their answer to the positions of johannes scotus , which he framed against gotteschalke hath these words , whosoever saith , tthat god hath laid a constraint , or necessity of sinning upon any man , he doth manifestly and fearefully blaspheme god , in as much as he maketh him , by affirming that of him to be the very authour of sinne . remigius arch. bishop of that church explaining the churches opinion in that point of prescience and predestination in seven severall rules ; in the fift of those rules , he hath these words to the same purpose . god , saith he by his prescience and predestination , hath laid a necessitie of being wicked upon noe man. for if he had done this , he had been the authour of sinnes . and thus in my iudgment doth it plainly appeare that by absolute reprobation , as it is taught the upper way , god is made to be the true cause of men's sinnes . observe the false carriage of this authour , that god is the authour of men's salvation and conversion , he saith , all sides grant ; as if there were noe difference between arminians , and the orthodox ; between him and us in this . we say god workes faith and regeneration in us , and that for christ's sake . the remonstrants in their censura censurae , in expresse termes deny that christ merited faith and regeneration for us ; and judge by this indifferently , whether they make faith and regeneration to be the guift of god. or when they doe in termes professe this ( as epicurus , verbis deos posuit , re sustulit ) whether they doe not equivocate . aske this authour in what sense he makes god to be the authour of man's conversiō , whether any otherwise thē , . in giving men power to believe if they will to repent if they will. . in perswading unto faith & repentance . . in concurring with man to the act of faith & repentance . now as touching the first , that mere nature & not grace , deo credere & ab amore rerum temporalium ad divina praecepta servanda se convertere omnes possint si velint , saith austin , all men can , if they will , believe god , and from the love of temporall things convert themselves to the keeping of god's commandements . now this is noe more , then , posse fidem habere , posse charitatem habere , to be capable of faith of charity , and this is , naturae hominum , of the nature of man ; as austin testifies in another place , where he saith posse fidem habere , posse charitatem habere , naturae est hominum , fidem habere , charitatem habere , gratiae est fidelium . to be capable of faith and charity , is the nature of man , but to have faith and to have charity is the grace of the faithfull . consider in reason ; supernaturall grace is not in reason to be accounted inferiour to a morall vertue ; but so it will prove , if it be but a power to be good if we will. for morall vertue doth not give a man a power only to doe good if he will , but it inclines and disposeth the will unto vertuous actions . so justice is not an indifferency of condition leaving it to man whether he will be just or noe ; but it makes him just , and so disposoth him to just courses . againe if grace supernaturall doth only give power to believe if one will ; this being a free power , it is indifferent as well not to believe , as to beleive ; as well not to repēt , as to repent . for liberty is alwaies to act opposite ; whence it will follow that by vertue of supernaturall grace a man is disposed not more to faith , then to infidelitie , not more to repentance then to hardnesse of heart and impenitency . . consider , a man hath noe need of supernaturall grace to inable him to refuse to repent , seing naturally he is sufficiently disposed hereunto ; & necessarily by reason of that naturall corruption which is hereditary unto him . by all this it is apparent , that a power to believe wrought in a man by supernaturall grace , is not a free power working freely ; but rather a necessary power working necessarily ; like unto the condition of a morall vertue , which restraines man's naturall indifferency to good or evill , and disposeth him only to good . and consequently as many as maintaine no other power to be given unto man by grace , then to believe , if a man will ; they deale like pelagians , who called that which was meerly naturall , prevenient grace . lastly if god be the authour of man's conversion , because he gives him power to convert , if he will ; he may as well be called the authour of non conversion , and perseverance in sinne , because god gives power not to convert , and to persevere in sinne , if he will. . as touching the second , if god be the authour of man's conversion , because he perswades thereunto , then certainly he is not the authour of sinne , because he perswades not thereunto . . if god be the authour of conversion , because he cooperates thereunto , then certainly he may be as well said to be the authour of every sinfull act . for that he doth cooperate thereunto , i am very confident this authour will not deny . now i could earnestly entreate the judicious reader to examine well this authour's opinion in these particulars , and compare them with his former discourse , that he may have a cleare way opened unto him to judge with what conscience he carried himselfe in his former discourse , imputing unto us that we make god the authour of sin ; albeit in treating of god's providence in evill , we generally have the expresse word of god before our eyes ; and in our explication thereof doe rather qualify the seeming harshnesse thereof , then aggravate it . for undoubtedly by the tenour of his discourse , looke upon what grounds he denies god to be the authour of sinne , he must withall deny god to be the authour of faith , of repentance , of conversion ; and look upon what grounds he makes god the authour of conversion ; upon the same grounds he must make god the authour of sinne : as in case to give power to believe , if we will ; and to cooperate with us in the act of faith , be to make him the authour : or if only upon perswading us to believe , god is said to be the authour of faith ; then it followes as a sufficient apologie for us , that we make not god to be the authour of sinne ; seing none of us conceive him to be a perswader of any sinfull act ; but rather a disswader and forbidder thereof and that upon paine of eternall damnation . but on the contrary we make a vast difference between god's operations in sinfull actions , and god's operations in actions gracious . as first , every sinfull act is alwaies within the compasse of acts naturall ; noe supernaturall act is or can be a sinne . now to the producing of any act of morality , every man notwithstanding his corruption hath in him a naturall power . but there is noe naturall power in man to the performing of an act supernaturall . god must inspire him with a new life called in scripture , the life of god ; and make him after a sort partaker of the divine nature ; and give his own spirit to dwell in him , in such sort , that , being crucified with christ , we hence forth live no more , but christ liveth in us . these supernaturall acts are but few according to the three theologicall vertues , faith , hope , & charity , whose offsprings they are ; the love of god to the contempt of our selves hope in god to the contempt of the world , as touching the worst it can doe unto us : and faith in god , to the quenching of the fiery darts of the devill . as for all other good acts , in the producing of them , god hath a double influence ; one common as they are acts naturall , touching the substance of them ; another speciall as touching the gracious nature of them , proceeding from faith and love . but as touching evill acts , he hath noe influence in the producing of them , but that which is common , and to the substance of the acts ; none at all as touching the evilnesse of them , the reason whereof is that which was delivered by austin long agoe . malū non habet causam efficientem sed deficientem , evill hath no cause efficient , but deficient only . and it is impossible that god should be defective in a culpable manner . the creature may , the creatour cannot : and the ground of the creatures defective condition is accounted to be this , that he was brought out of nothing , & consequently of a fraile condition . and it is received generall as a rule in schooles , that a creature cannot be made , impeccabilis per naturam , that is such a one , as by nature cannot sinne . this was delivered long agoe by anselme one of the first of school-divines ; in evill things god doth worke , quod sunt , that they are ; non quod mala sunt , not that they are evill ; but in good things god doth worke , et quod sunt , & quod bona sunt , both that they are and that they are good . here this authour sets down our opinion concerning election and reprobation at his pleasure . we say with austin that , predestination is the preparation of grace , that is the divine decree of conferring grace ; and both he and all confesse , it is also the decree of conferring glory . and because in making of this decree , god had respect unto some only , not to all , both men and angells , therefore in this consideration it is called the decree of election , in distinction from the decree of reprobation . now this grace is of a double nature ; for either it is grace custodient from sinne , and the decree of granting this was the election of angells , called in holy scripture , the elect angells ; or grace healing , after men have sinned , and the decreee of granting this is the election of men , commonly in scripture called god's elect , in reference unto this . it is farther to be observed that austin grounds the orthodoxe doctrine of predestination and election upon the orthodoxe doctrine concerning grace . and the absolutenesse of the one he built upon the freenes of the other , in not being given according unto men's merits . as it appeares , de bono perseverantiae cap. . where having proposed some exceptions of the massilienses made against his doctrine of predestination , comming to make answer thereunto , he begins thus , ista cum dicuntur , saith he . ita nos à confitenda dei gratia , id est , quae non secundum merita nostra datur , & a confitenda secundum eam predestinatione sanctorum deterrere non debent when these things are objected , they must not deterre us from confessing god's grace , i meane such a grace as is not given accordiog unto works ; nor from confessing the predestination of saints according thereunto . now if the absolutenesse of predestination be grounded upon this , that , grace is not given according unto merits , ( the scripture phrase denies it to be given according unto workes . but bellarmine acknowledgeth that in this argument , merits and workes are taken by the ancients in one and the same sense . ) it followeth that as many as deny the absolutenesse of predestination must therewithall maintaine , that , grace is given according to men's merits or works . and the reason is evident : for if god doth not give grace according unto men's works , but of his mere pleasure decreed to give grace unto some , and not upon consideration of their works . and this is to elect absolutely , and antecedently without the foresight of any deserving , yea of any works ; though by that expression which this authour useth he doth sufficienty manifest , that his opinion is , that god elects not only upō the foresight of men's , workes but upon the foresight of men's deservings . it is farther considerable to prevent the reaches of such crafty foxes as we have to deale with , whose course is in joyning the decree of conversion and salvation together , to translate that which belongs unto one , unto the other most unreasonably : for albeit god proceeds according to the mere pleasure , and without all respect to workes , in conferring grace , and decreeth accordingly to conferre it : yet he proceeds not merely according unto pleasure , and without all respect of works in conferring glory ; but according unto a covenant which is this , whosoever beleiveth shall be saved , and accordingly he bestowes the kingdome of heaven by way of reward for faith , repentance , and good workes . this hath christ deserved at the hands of his father that our weake performances should be thus rewarded . lastly , it is farther to be considered that god , as he thus bestoweth salvation by way of reward of our faith , repentance so from everlasting he did decree to bestowe salvation , namely , by way of reward . not that either faith , or repentance , or good workes , any or all of these were the cause ( least of all the deserving cause ) of god's decree , or antecedaneous to his decree ; but of his mere pleasure decreed both to give the grace of faith and repentance , and to bestow eternall life by way of a reward thereof , as may farther be proved and that clearly divers waies . . by the apostl's discourse ; where he discourseth after this manner , before esau and iacob were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said that the elder shall serve the younger ; therefore election is not of workes : but if election did proceeed upon the foresight of faith , repentance , and good workes , or any of them , then it might justly be said , that it were of faith , repentance , or good workes or of all of them ; and the force of the apostles argument extends to conclude , that election is noe more of faith or of repentance , then of workes ; not only because faith and repentance are workes , and so accounted in scripture phrase , as it appeares . io : . . but cheifely because before men are borne , they are uncapable of faith and repentance , as of good workes . . if faith were a motive cause unto election , then either it were so of it 's own nature , or by constitution divine : not of it's own nature as it is apparent . if by constitution divine , mark what strange absurdities follow ; namely this , that god did ordaine , that upon the fore sight of faith , he would ordaine men unto salvation , whereby god's eternall ordination is made the object of his ordination , whereas the objects of god's decrees are alwaies things temporall , never any thing that is eternall . . it cannot be said that god giveth salvation to the end he may give them faith , but it may farre more congruously be said , that god gives faith to the end that he may save them ; therefore the intention of salvation is rather before the intention of giving faith , then the intention of giving faith is before the intention of giving salvation . or better thus , if god foresee faith before he decrees salvation , then the intention of giving faith ( without which god cannot foresee faith ) is before the intention of giving salvation ; and consequently the giving of faith should be the last in execution ; that is men shall first be saved , and aferwards have faith bestowed upon them , to wit , in another world where they live by sight and not by faith . i come to the decree of reprobation ; the objects whereof are two , proportionable to the two objects of election or predestination . the first is permission of sin , the second is , damnation for sinne , according to that of aquinas , reprobatio includit voluntatem permitendi culpam & damnationem inferendi pro culpâ . reprobation includes a will to permit sinne , and to inflict damnation for sinne . the first object of reprobation i say is , permission of sinne ; not sin as this authour would have it , but permission of sinne : because these decrees , to wit , of permitting sinne , and inferring damnation for sinne , are decrees of meanes conducing to a certaine end . for like as in election god decreeth to bestowe faith , repentance , and obedience on some , and to reward it with everlasting life for the manifestation of his glory in the way of mercy mixt with justice : so in reprobation he decrees to permit others to sinne , and finally to persevere therein , and to damne them for their sinne to manifest his glory in the way of vindicative justice . now whosoever intends an end must also be the auhour of the meanes conducing to that end . now god , though well he may be the authour of permission of sinne , yet he cannot be the author of sinne : albeit upon god's permission of sinne it followeth that sinne shall exist . now to permit sinne is all one with denying grace , whether it be grace custodient to preserve from it , or grace healing to pardon and cure it after it is committed . now like as the lord hath mercy on whom he will in pardoning their sinne , and healing it by faith and repentance : so he hardeneth whom he will by denying faith and repentance . so that as god of his mere pleasure grants the grace of faith and repentance unto some ; so of his mere pleasure he denies it unto others . and so in reprobation he decreeth of his mere pleasure to deny it . but albeit the lord of mere pleasure proceeds in the denying of faith and repentance , whereby alone sinne is cured , and so of mere pleasure suffers some finally to persevere in sinne , yet in inflicting damnation he doth not carry himselfe of mere pleasure without all respect to men's workes ; but herein he proceeds according to a law which is this , whosoever believeth not , and repenteth not , shall be damned . and like as god damnes noe man but for his finall perseverance in sinne . so from everlasting he did decree to damne noe man , but for his finall perseverance in sinne . so that by vertue of the divine decree of reprobation , sinne and finall perseverance therein is constituted the cause of damnation ; but by noe meanes is it constituted the cause of the decree of reprobation ; neither doth the foresight of sinne precede it . for first , like as upon this doctrine , that , grace is not given according unto workes , the absolutenesse of predestination is grounded in the judgment of austine as by necessary consequence issuing there from : in like sort upon this , that grace is not denied according unto men's workes , as necessarily followeth the absolutenesse of reprobation . secondly , looke by what reason the apostle proves , that election is not of good workes , namely because , before the children were borne or had done any good , it was said the elder shall serve the yonger ; by the same reason it evidently followeth that reprobation is not of evill workes , because , before they were borne or had done good or evill , it was said the elder shall serve the younger , esau's reprobation being as emphatically signified under his subjection to iacob his younger , as iacob's election was designed by his dominion over esau his elder brother . . if sinne be the cause of the decree of reprobation , then either of ' its own nature , or by constitution divine . not by necessity of nature ; for undoubtedly god could annihilate men for sinne , had it pleased him . if by constitution divine , mark what absurdity followeth , namely this , that , god did ordaine that upon foresight of sinne , he would ordaine men unto damnation . . if foresight of sinne precedes the decree of damning them for sin , then the decree to permit sin much more precedes the decree to damne them for it , as without which there can be noe foresight of sin ; and consequently permission of sin is first in intention , and then damnation ; and therefore it should be last in execution ; that is , men should first be damned , and afterwards permitted to sin , to wit , in an other world . . and lastly reprobation is the will of god ; but there can be noe cause of god's will , as aquinas hath proved ; much lesse can a temporall thing be the cause of god's will , which is eternall . upon this ground it is that aquinas professeth , never any man was so mad , as to say that any thing might be the cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating . so may i say , it were a mad thing to maintaine that any thing can be the cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating . for the case is altogether alike ; the will of god being alike uncapable of a cause in both , whereas this authour saith , that , god by our opinion doth draw men on by his unconquerable power from sin to sin ; 't is mere bumbast . all men being borne in sin must needs persevere in sin , unlesse god gives grace to regenerate them . for whether they doe that which is morally good , they doe it not in a gracious manner ; or whether they abstaine from evill , they doe it not in a gracious manner . he that is of god heareth god's wordes , ye therefore heare them not saith our saviour , because ye are not of god. arminius acknowledgeth and corvinus after him , that all men by reason of adam's sin are cast upon a necessitie of sinning . he askes what difference is there in the course which god taketh for the conversion of the elect and obduration of reprobates ; and i have already shewed a vast difference ; and here in breife i shew a difference ; he hath mercy on the one in the regenerating them , & curing the corruption he finds in them , he shewes not the like grace to others , but leaves them unto themselves ; as touching the evill acts committed by the one , he concurreth as a cause efficient to the act which for the substance of it is naturally good . for ens & bonum convertuntur , every thing that is an entity so farre is good , but he hath no efficiency as touching the evill , as which indeed can admit no efficiencie , as austin hath delivered of old , man himselfe is only a deficient cause of sin , as sin , and that in a culpable manner , which kind of deficiency is not incident to god. but to every good act he concurres two manner of waies & that in the nature of a positive efficient cause in both , namely , to the substance of the act by influence generall , and to the goodnesse of it by influence speciall and supernaturall . it is true the fathers made sin the object of prescience , not of predestination ; the reason was because they took predestination to be only of such things which god did effect in time ; now sin is none of those things that come to passe by god's effection , but only by god's permission . and that such was the notion of predestination with the fathers , i prove first out of austin . in sua quae falli mutarique non potest praescientiâ opera sua futura disponere , illud omnino nec aliud quidquam est praedestinare in his foreknowledge , which can neither be deceived nor changed to dispose his own workes , that is to predestinate and nothing else . and sin , not being the worke of god , no marvaile if it come not under predestination . secondly , out of the synod of valens , praedestinatione autem deum ea tantum statuisse dicimus quae ipse vel gratuita misericordiâ , vel justo judicio facturus erat . we say that god by predestination ordained only such things as himselfe would work , either of his free mercy , or in just judgment . againe it is as true that they made even sin it selfe the object of god's will , witnesse that of austin . non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo . not any thing comes to passe but god allmighty willing it , either by permitting it or working it . so the eleaventh article of the church of ireland ; so arminius deus voluit achabum mensuram scelerum implere , god would have ahab to fulfill the measure of his sins . so scripture often mentioned . and austin gives the reason of it , malum fieri bonū est , it is good that evill should be . bellarmine confesseth as much , namely that , mala fieri deo permittente bonum est , it is good that evills should come to passe by god's permission . and shall not god have liberty to will that which is good ? when he saith of the ancients , that , they refuted this foule assertion of an absolute , irresistable and necessitating decree as he could easily shew , but that he feares to be overlong . it is nothing but froth ; it is not the first time i have had experience of such like pyrgopolinices eloquence of his . bradwardin hath demonstrated that the will of god is absolute throughout speaking of his decree , and none conditionall and his demonstration is this , if there be any will of god conditionall , then the condition whereupon it proceds must be willed by god or no ; to say it is not , is to acknowledge some things to exist in the world , in the producing whereof , god hath noe hand , which is generally disclaimed ; and durand , who affirmes some such thing , is opposed generally , and indeed his arguments are very sleight . but if god doth will that condition ; then either he wills it absolutely or conditionally ; if absolutely , then the cause is gained . for then that which was first willed , was willed also absolutely not conditionally . as for example , if god wills a man's salvation upon condition of faith , if withall god's will be , and that absolutely to give him faith , it followeth that god wills that man's salvation , and that absolutely . if it be answered that the condition is willed not absolutely , but upon another condition ; of that other condition i enquire whether god willed it or noe . if noe , then something is produced in the world , in the production whereof god , hath no hand , which is very inconvenient ; if you grant that he willed that also , i farther demand whether he willed it absolutely or conditionally ? if absolutely then all that depended thereupon were absolutely willed , and so the cause is obtained . if you say this condition was willed also conditionally , so a way is made to a progression in infinitum , which is a thing unsufferable by the consent of all . and as many as are put to give instance will forthwith manifest the nakednes of their cause . this demonstration of bradwardine i sometimes represented to this very authour in our private walking and communication , and he professed it was a very ingenious argument . as for the other terme irresistable this manifests this authour's meaning , that some will of god , speaking of his decree , is of a resistable nature . whereas st. paul to the contrary plainly gives us to understand that god's will is irresistable ; & the psalmist saith , that the counsell of the lord shall stand . and my counsell shall stand , and i will doe whatsoever i will. and therefore his decrees are resembled to mountaines of brasse . as for the lost terme necessitating . for the gentleman paies us in words , for want of better coine , not considering that words are but winde , he would cheat his reader by this , presuming he would be so simple , as to believe that god by this decree of his takes away the liberty of the creature , but it doth not ; nor any contingency , as the eleaventh article of ireland doth particulate : and bradwardine who peculiarly useth this phrase , understands hereby noe other necessitie then upon supposition , which alvarez shewes by generall concurrence of school-divines , that it may well stand with absolute contingency and liberty , it being noe other necessity , then that which is called , secundum quid , in some respect ; and such a necessitie arminius maketh consequent to permission : & bradwardine is express that god necessitates the will to produce a free act . and he nothing differs from aquinas his doctrine , where he maintaines that god's will imposeth noe necessitie upon the creatures will ; because he ordaines both necessary things come to passe , necessarily , and contingent things , contingently , that is with a possibility to the contrary ; & likewise free actions freely , that is with a free active power in the agent to doe otherwise . but come we to the consideration of the passages produced out of the ancients . for i presume they are the choicest . for though he feared to be overlong , and therefore could not exhibit all ; yet therefore it behooved him to represent the best . and i believe he could produce more of this nature . for i have been an eye witnes of it under his hand now foure yeares agoe . and though he produce them not , i hope to doe it for him ere we part , to shew how little i feare his concealements , and somewhat of the predestinarians also , being glad of such an opportunity to discover the wildnesse and precipitation of his judgment touching that which is called the predestinarian heresy here touched by him . the first is a passage taken out of the church of lyons , denying that god hath layed a necessitie of sinning on any man. another out of remigius ; both represented ( yea & many more of this nature ) by that most reverend and most learned arch-bishop of armagh doctor usher in his history of goteschalk , . and . to these i answer . first these ancients are about yeares after christ ; yet marvailous orthodoxe considering those times in the point of predestination . and let no man think that they deny a necessity of sinning laid upon all by originall corruption , the consequent of adam's prevarication . if they were of any other opinion , should it become us to follow them in this ? doctor potter acknowledgeth it as the doctrine of the church of england , that libertas à peccato , liberty from sinne , is not incident to a naturall man ; it is true he desires to quash it by saying there is yet in man , libertas à necessitate , à liberty from necessitie ; but from what necessity ? from the necessity of sinning ? if so , why should he then deny a liberty from sin ; yet he never taketh any paines to cleare this from contradiction , but blindfoldly followes bernard , without caring much to understand him . and he looks to be pardoned because vossius did so before him . m. fulke , in his answer to the rhemish testament , usually distinguisheth between libertas à peccato , & libertas à coactione , liberty from sinne , and liberty from constraint ; and denying all liberty from sinne to a naturall man , yet grants unto him a liberty from coaction . i have taken some paines to shew doctor potter's superficiary carriage in this , and to cleare bernard ; which it may be i will adde to this by the reason of the homogeneous nature of it . in the meane time liberty from sinne is utterly denied to a naturall man , and that by the doctrine of our church . and noe marvaile seeing arminius himselfe , and corvinus , those great patrons of natures power , doe acknowledg this , as before i mentioned ; only they say god is ready to remove this necessitie of sinning from all , and every one . . but the meaning of remigius and the church of lyons is the same with that of prosper formerly mentioned , in his answer to the objection of vincentius , where he confesseth , hominem non redemptum diabolo esse captivum , a man not redeemed is captivated by satan ; and that , creatura peccatrix poenalem dominationem diaboli merito patitur , cui ( relicto vero domino ) sponte se vendidit . the creature sinning deservedly suffers the dominion of satan by way of punishment , as to whom he sould him selfe voluntarily . haec quippe servitus non institutio est dei sed judicium . this slavery of man to satan is not god's institution but judgment ; that is god brought it upon him not of his mere pleasure , but in the way of judgment . like as austin in like manner acknowledgeth , concupiscense to be , not sinne only , but the punishment of sinne also . so remigius and the chuch of lyons say ; that god imposed it not on adam but man falling from god brought a necessitie of sinning upon him , & upon all his race ; god hereupon justly withdrawing his holy spirit from him . . why he should alleadge the first passage under the name of the church of lyons , i know not ; the reverend bishop acknowledgeth florus to be the authour thereof , a deacon of lyons pag. . although the same reverend bishop acknowledgeth that other book also that goes under the name of the church of lyons now extant in the bibliothecâ sanctorum patrum ; and wherehence vossius communicateth unto us his excerpta , was written by the same florus pag. . he had more reason to father his next passage , which he produceth out of remigius upon the church of lyons . for albeit maldonat cites the booke intituled liber de tribus episcoporum epistolis ( whence this passage is taken under the name of remigius ) yet he who set it forth ascribes it to the church of lyons , and that by the direction of the copy , which was in the hands of nicholas faber , as appeares goteschalc : hist : . but none doe i find to ascribe this worke of florus to the church of lyons , though the authour of another booke under that title , the bishop acknowledgeth to be florus . . florus acknowledgeth that the very saints of god are under a necessity of sin in a sort , p. . in sanctis licet sit liberum arbitrium jam christi gratiâ liberatum atque sanctum ; tamen tanta est illa sanitas , ut quamdiu mortaliter vivunt sine peccato esse non possint , & cum velint atque desiderent non peccare non possūt tamen non peccare . in the saints of god though there be freedome of will , as freed by the grace of christ , and made holy , yet this health is such , that as long as they carry this mortall body about thē they cannot be without sin : and though they would and desire to be without sin , yet they cannot be without sin . this i conceive is spoken in respect of the flesh lusting against the spirit ; & of the law in our members rebelling against the law of our mind , & leading us captive to the law of sin . how much more are the wicked in bondage to sinne and satan , as the same florus sheweth pag. ? for whereas scotus taught , that a man had not lost his liberty , but only the power and vigour of his liberty . florus opposeth him thus , non rectè dicit , quia nec sentit , he saith not well , because he thinks not well ; sed sicut vigorem & potestatem libertatis , ita ipsam perdidit libertatem , ut jam ipse ad verum bonum unde cecidit liber esse non possit . as he hath lost the vigour and power of his libertie ; so he hath lost libertie it selfe , insomuch that unto true good , from whence he is fallen , he cannot be free ; to wit , untill he be freed by the grace of christ . in like māner remigius discourseth also , grāting free will only to evill , p. . in infidelibus id ipsum liberū arbitriū ita per adam damnatum & perditum , in operibus mortuis liberum esse potest , in vivis non potest . in infidells free will it selfe , so damned and lost in adam , may be free in dead workes , cannot be free in living works that is , is not free to produce works belonging to a spirituall life . so that they unanimously confesse that in respect of originall sin , there is a necessity of sinning , but this is rightly to be understood ; namely thus , that true good they cannot doe , so that whatsoever they doe is evill , only that it is free unto them to doe this or that evill , which is most true . secondly , thus farre they qualifie this necessitie of sinning , that never any man is carried by the divine providence , so as to sinne whether they will or no. for albeit rabanus charged them , whom he opposed herewith , pag. . si enim secundum ipsos qui talia sentiunt , dei praedestinatio invitum hominem facit peccare , quomodo deus justo judicio , damnat peccantem , cum ille non voluntate , sed necessitate peccaverit . for if , according to them who thinke such things , god's predestination makes a man to sinne against his will ; how doth god in his just judgmēt damne him that sinneth , when he sinned not voluntarily but necessarily ? thus they criminated their adversaries : but remigius answers on their behalfe , who were thus falsly accused nemo ita sentit aut dicit quod dei predestinatio aliquem invitum faciat peccare , ut jam non propriae voluntatis perversitate , sed divinae praedestinationis necessitate peccare videatur . no man so thinks or speakes , that god's predestination makes a man to sinne against his will ; so that a man should seeme to sinne , not by the perversitie of his own will , but by the necessitie of divine predestination . but this is the worke of divine predestination , that he who sins willingly , & perseveres willingly in his sins , shall against his will be punished . and the truth is taking predestination as it signifies preparation of grace , or god's decree to conferre this , rather god 's not predestinating a man , or not giving grace , and not making him to be of god , is the cause why a man sinneth , according to that of our saviour . he that is of god heareth god's words ▪ ye therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god. yet this is rightly to be understood . for god's not conferring regenerating grace is rather the cause why their naturall corruption is not cured , thē that they goe on in their sinfull courses : for naturally carnall men are prone enough to sin , and in this course they necessarily continue , untill god changeth their hearts ; necessarily i say , but not against their wills . for sinne is as a sweet morsell , which they roule under their tongue . this may suffice for answer unto these passages , and withall to represent the vanitie of this authour's discourse , endeavouring to brand our doctrine with making god the authour of sinne ; more of this hereafter ; for i am acquainted with that which he here conceales , and with certaine adjuncts thereunto , both touching the opinion of the church of lyons concerning falling from grace ; as also this authours bold adventure in two particulars in justifying vossius , citing the cōfession of pelagius as one of austin's sermons ; as also defending him in the point of the predestinarian heresie , which doctor usher maintaines to be a mere fiction of the semipelagians to bring austin's doctrin thereby into disgrace . but vossius conceives that there was indeed such an heresie , and that the monks of adrumetum were the authours of it . and this interpolatour takes vossius his part , and labours by certaine arguments to make it good against he judicious observations of that most reverend and learned arch-bishop of armagh . it may be i shall represent my answer thereunto by wa●●● digression ; but first i must dispatch my answer to this i have in hand . sect : . many distinctions are brought to free the supralapsarian way from this crimination all which ( me thinks ) are no● better then mere delusions of the simple and inconsiderate , and give noe true satisfaction to the understanding . there is say they a twofold decree . . first an operative , by which god positively and efficaciously worketh allthings . . a permissive , by which he decreeth only to let it come to passe . if god should worke sinne by an operative decree , then he should be the authour of sinne , but not if he decree by a permissive decree to let it come to passe , and this only they say they maintaine . it is true that god hath decreed to suffer sinne ; for otherwise there would be none . who can bring forth that which god will absolutely hinder ? he suffered adam to sinne , leaving him in the hand of his own counsell , ecclus . . . he suffered the nations in time past to walke in their own waies act : . . and dayly doth he suffer both good and bad to fall into many sins ; and this he doth , not because he stands in need of sinne for the setting forth of his glory ; for he hath noe need of the sinfull man. ecclus . . but partly because he is ( summus provisor ) supreme moderatour of the world , and knoweth how to use that well which is ill done , and to bring good out of evill ; and especially for that reason which tertullian prelleth , namely , because man is made by god's own gracious constitution , a free creature undetermined in his actions , untill he determine himselfe ; and therefore may not be hindred from sinning by omnipotency , because god useth not to repeale his own ordinances . . it is true also that a permissive decree is noe cause of sinne , because it is merely extrinsecall to the sinner , and hath noe influence at all upon the sinne . it is an antecedent only , and such a one too , as being put , sinne followeth not of necessitie . and therefore it is fitly contradistinguisht to an operative decree . and if that side would in good earnest , impute noe more in sinfull events to divine power , then the word permission , imports , their maine conclusion would fall , and the controversy between , us end . but first , many of them reject this distinction utterly , and will have god to decree sinne ( efficaciter ) with an energeticall and working will. witnesse that discourse of beza wherein he a verreth and laboureth to prove , that god doth not only permit sinne but will it also : and witnesse calvin too , who hath a whole section against it , calling it a carnall distinction invented by the flesh , and ( effugium ) a mere evasion to shift off this seeming absurdity , that that man is made blind ( deo volente & jubente ) by gods will and command ; who must shortly after be punished for his blindnes ; he calleth it also ( figmentum ) a fiction , and saith they doe ( ineptire ) play the fooles that use it . by many reasons also doth he indeavour to lay open the weaknes of it , taxing those who understand such scriptures as speaks of god's smiting men with a spirit of slumber and giddinesse , of blinding their minds , infatuating and hardening their hearts &c. of a permission and suffering of men to be blinded , and hardned , nimis frivola est ista solutio , saith he , it is too frivilous a glosse . in another place he blameth those that referre sin to god's prescience only , calling their speeches ( argutiae ) tricks and quirks which scripture will not beare ; and those likewise that ascribe it to god's permission , and saith , what they bring touching the divine permission in this businesse will not hold water . they that admit the word permissive , doe willingly mistake it , and while , to keep of this blow , they use the word , they corrupt the meaning . for . permission is an act of god's consequent and judiciary will , by which he punisheth men for abusing their freedome , and committing such sins day by day , as they might have avoided ; and to which he proceedeth ( lento gradu ) slowly and unwillingly , as we may see , psal : . . . israel would none of me , so i gave them up &c. ezeh : . . goe and serve every one his idoll , seeing ye will not obey me &c. rom : . . . because when they knew god , they glorified him not as god , therefore god gave them up unto their hearts lusts , to vile affections and to a reprobate mind . rev. . . he that is unjust let him be unjust still . in these places and many more we may see , that persons left to themselves are sinners only ; and not all sinners , but the obstinate and willfull , which will by noe meanes be reclaimed . but the permission which they meane , is an act of god's antecedent will , exercised about innocent men lying under no guilt at all in god's eternall consideration . . permission about whomsoever it is exercised , obstinate sinners , or men considered without sinne , is no more then a not hindring of them from falling , that are able to stand , & supposeth a possibility of sinning or not sinning , in the parties permitted ; but with them it is a withdrawing or withholding of grace needfull for the avoiding of sin , and so includeth an absolute necessitie of sinning . for from the withdrawing of such grace sin must needs follow ; as the fall of dagon's house followed sampson's plucking away the pillars that were necessary for the upholding of it . maccovius in two disputations , expounding this word ( permission ) circumscribes it within two acts . the first of which is a substraction of divine assistance , necessary to the preventing of sinne ; and having proved it by two arguments , that none may thinke he is alone in this , he saith , that he is compassed about with a cloud of witnesses , and produceth two . the first of them is our reverend and learned whitaker , some of whose words alleadged by him are these , permission of sinne is a privation of the aid , which being present , sinne would have been hindred . the second is pareus , for saying that that helpe ( which god withdrew from adam ) being withdrawen , adam could not soe use his endowments , as to persevere . and this doctrine , saith he , is defended by our men , as it appeareth out of pareus lib , de grat primi hominis c. p. . their permission therefore of sinne being a substraction of necessary grace , is equivalent to an actuall effectuall procuring and working of it ▪ for ( causa deficiens in necessariis est eficiens ) a deficient cause in things necessary is truely efficient ) and so is but a mere fig-leafe to cover the foulenesse of their opinion . here we have a very demure discourse proceeding in a positive manner , proceeding from one that takes upon him to be a master and dictator of sentences ; wherein there is little or nothing sound that he delivers of his own ; or to purpose that he delivers of others . nothing of any colour of pertinency , besides what he delivers in the last place touching our opinion of the nature of permission of sin . and i willingly confesse , the divine permission of sin is a very obscure point , and in my judgment most come short in the explication thereof arminius hath a large digression upon this place of permission in generall , and of permission of sin in speciall : it was the first peece of arminius , the examination whereof i undertook only with a mind to search after satisfaction therein . and finding noe content therein , i gave my selfe to enquire thereof in a positive manner ; wherein i proceeded very farre , setting downe in foule papers , as they came to hand , whatsoever came into my mind thereabout , which grew into a large proportion , and then set my selfe upon preconceived grounds reasonably well disscurssed by me , to deale with arminius some five sections after the beginning of his discourse on this argument , which five first sections i took not into examination , untill i had dispatched the whole . and having an occasion to deale upon this argument when i came to the defence of m. perkins his answer to the third crimination , whereupon i deale in the second book of my vindiciae , i thought good to digresse after the second section , & to call a certaine proposition of m. perkins to account , which was this , quod deus non impedit , ideo evenit , quia deus non impedit . it is the third digression of the second book , the title whereof is this , propositio illa perkinsii ( quod deus non impedit , ideo evenit , quia deus non impedit ) sub examen revocatur . there is noe digression throughout that book of mine that affords more variety of philosophicall and theologicall contemplations , then that ; and all about the nature of permission . first , in things naturall . secondly , in things morall . and these first in good things . secondly , in evill things . in the course whereof many obscurities and difficulties doe offer themselves to be cleared , & solved by distinction ; where comming to an end , i deliver my selfe in this manner . i perceive in how slippery an argument i exercise my selfe , too much exposed to the calumny of adversaries , and too apt to incurre the dislike of good men ; whereas in all my labour i aime at nothing else , then according to my power to explicate the mystery of divine providence governing all things after a wonderfull manner ; and to dissemble nothing , but represent all difficulties that doe occurre , that both my adversaries may have at hand what to impugne ; our divines wherein to take paines , either by way of explication of what yet remaines obscure ; or by confirmation of what they shall find to be sound yet unsufficiently proved . now that digression of mine being so large , i wonder not a little that no one particular thereof is here called to an account by this divine . and so may others too when they shall consider against whom this man's stomach workes most . for he cannot be ignorant of my answer to m. hoord his proselyte , if not therein to himselfe . againe , the exception here in the last place taken against our doctrine of permission , is exactly the same with arminius his exception against mr. perkins in dealing upon the third crimination , which there i have answered at large , and that in such manner , that i willingly professe , i was utterly to seek at this time , of what i had there delivered ; so that upon my consulting the place , the things i there met with , seemed new unto me , in discovering many waies the inconsequence of arminius his discourse , which yet is the very same with this of mr. mason's . yet he hath not replied upon any one line of all that i delivered there , though they are above in the second edition of that book . but it may be he takes that for noe better then an idle discourse ( yet an answer it is to this very exception of his ) & 't is enough for him to convince the justnesse of that exception made by arminius , by sound argument . and what is that but a rule given by him , upon his own credit , without indication of the least authority to confirme it ; and though on the contrary i have divers and sundry waies manifested the falsenes thereof : well i am not resolved to suffer him to passe unanswered , how idle soever his discourse may appeare to be . foure distinctions of ours he proposeth to invade ; not one of them is pretermitted by arminius in his answer unto perkins , nor any part of that his answer pretermitted by me . but this is written in english for the indoctrinating of the people , as i remember what was said of m. hoord's discourse ; namely , that it was fit to be coppied out , and communicated unto the country . he saith these distinctions are , delusions of the simple ; when he proves it , then it will be time enough to believe it . but whereas , he saith , they give noe true satisfaction to the understanding , this is rightly to be understood , to wit , in reference to an arminian understanding corrupted with the leaven of pelagidnisme . yet is he not privy to the understanding of all , so much as of all that are of his own tenet . but suppose they doe not . the distinctions used by school-divines to accommodate god's predestination with man's free will , are many and learned , but caietan professeth of them all that they doe not , quietare intellectum , satisfie the understanding ; but what followes ; therefore saith he , ego captivo meum in obsequium fidei ; i captivate mine unto the obedience of faith to wit , because scripture is evident for both : and why should it seeme strange that god's providence in governing the world should be of a mysterious nature . and however this authour may censure caietane in this , yet alvarez professeth that herein , doctissimè , & piissimè loquitur ; he speakes most learnedly and most piously . yet permission , in the judgment of suarez , is not merely a negation of prohibition , but conjunct with a positive operation in concurring to the act of sinne ; which aquinas hath proved to be à deo , from god , though the obliquity of the act be not . and the truth is , man himselfe is not operative in sinne , otherwise then as touching the substance of the act . for sinne , as sinne hath noe cause efficient , but deficient only , as austin hath long agoe delivered ; neither hath he been opposed herein by any that i know . observe how with him to hinder , and absolutely to hinder is made all one ; yet to will , and absolutely to will in god , is not all one in his opinion . i doe not find that god left adam in the hand of his counsell . for he forbade him to eate of the forbidden fruit , which is somewhat more then to disswade from it . and yet to perswade or disswade another , is not to leave him in the hands of his own counsells . for it is to impart unto him another counsell . yet though we disswade a brother , and so not leave him in the hand of his own counsell ; yet we still leave him to his own free will. both these i have insisted upon more at large in the second book in my vindiciae , sect : . digres . . it is true god hath noe need of setting forth his own glory , noe more then he hath need of making the world ; but the existence of sin may be and is necessarily required to the setting forth of god's glory in some attributes of his . for neither can the glory of god's mercy appeare in pardoning sinne , nor the glory of his vindicative justice , ( called in scripture his wrath , rom : . . ) in punishing sinne , unlesse there be sinne to be pardoned , and sinne to be punished : nor the glory of his power and wisedome in working good out of evill , unlesse god give way to the committing of evill . and if upon god's permission of sinne , it be not necessary that sinne exist , then it is not in the allmighty power of god infallibly to procure the manifestation of his glory , either in the way of mercy pardoning it , or in the way of justice punishing it . but seeing these reasons are not considerable with this supercilious theologue , it should seeme likely , that looke what he substitutes in the place thereof , will prove substantiall , and satisfie such understandings as his own : and that he represents out of tertullian , namely , because man is made by god a free creature . this reason was represented by arminius before him , and that out of tertullian , arminius his huskes are pleasing to him . such was the condition of the prodigall child when he forsooke his father ; the provender of swine was acceptable to him . yet he could not have enough of that . is not man a free creature to performe naturall acts as well as morall ; and morall good as well as evill ? nay are not the children of god made free by christ to the performance of actions spirituall ? what therefore must god only permit them to performe them , and by noe meanes worke them to the performance of faith , and repentance , and all manner of obedience ; yea and keep them from sinning against him , as he kept abimelech , gen : ? see how this authour displaies himselfe ere he was aware ; and withall what the reason is why he affects to deale upon reprobation only , not upon election or grace least his vile opinion miserably defacing the glory of god's grace might appeare with open face in ' its proper colours . yet it breakes forth more then he could wish , in setting down the end why god permits sinne , to wit , because men are free creatures , therefore it becomes not god to worke their wills to this or that , but only to permit them to doe what they will ; if they will sinne to permit them ; if they would doe any good worke whether it be faith or repentance , or any other good worke , or to abstaine from sinne , to permit that also ; whereby it is apparent that god by his opinion hath noe more hand in working a man to any good worke ( excepting the act of commanding and perswading the one , and not the other ) then in working them unto evill . for because they are free creatures , therefore it becomes god to leave them unto themselves , and permit them to doe what they will , whether it be good or evill : otherwise god should nullifie his own institution in making them free agents . yet consider farther how herein he contradicts the very principles of his own side , both arminians and iesuites . for arminius maintaines that god can hinder a man effectually from the committing of sinne without any prejudice to the liberty of their wills . the like doe the iesuites maintaine in their doctrine of grace effectuall in the way of congruity , namely , that god can bring any man to faith , to obedience , to any good worke , and accordingly preserve him from any sinne by vertue of grace effectuall , which is shaped by them in such a manner , as to be noe way prejudiciall to the liberty of their wills . but tertullians authority hath abused his fancy , and exposed him to lay open himselfe in so shamefull a manner . yet tertullian will not serve his turn any more , then it doth serve arminius his turne , as i have shewed in my answer to arminius lib. . part . prima de praedest . sect : , and that at large . secondly , the reasons he brings for the contradistinction of decree permissive , from decree operative , are very vaine . for , the decree operative is extrinsecall to the sinner , as well as the decree permissive . secondly , neither hath it any influence at all upon the sinne ( as which admits noe efficient cause thereof being of a mere privative nature ) but upon the substance of the act , which i presume this authour will not deny . thirdly , the decree permissive is not an antecedent only , but such as being put , sinne followes of necessitie , as well as upon the position of the decree operative ; that is of necessitie , by supposition , not necessity absolute . for as aquinas hath delivered and proved , not only the things themselves come to passe by vertue of god's decree , but , modi rerum , severall conditions of them . as for example , necessary things , necessarily ; contingent things , contingently ; free actions , freely ; and that thus the things permitted do alwaies come to passe , not only piscator with our divines , as mr. perkins , doctor whitaker and pareus doe avouch , but vorstius also and arminius , as i have shewed in my vindiciae , lib. . digres . . arminius his words are these , if god permits a man to will this or that , necesse est , it must needs be , ut nullo argumentorum genere persuadeatur ad nolendum , that no kind of argument move him to will it . navarettus the dominican professeth the same , in quaest . . pag. prima art . . pag. . col : . . that this destinction is rejected by our divines this authour brings no tollerable evidence . as for beza here it is confessed , that he acknowledgeth god to permit sinne , and whereas he addes that he wills it too , it is nothing contradictory to the former . for to permit sinne ( speaking of permission divine ) is to will that sinne shall come to passe by god's permission . and austin hath professed of those things that come to passe by god's permission , that they come to passe , deo volente , god willing them . and the scripture acknowledgeth as much , that the kings in prostituting their royall authority , to the executing the pleasure of the beast , did herein fulfill the will of god. so that god's permissive decree is as effectuall in its kind , as the operative decree in ' its kind ; thus farre , that like as what god meanes to worke shall come to passe ; so look what god meanes to permit , that also shall come to passe . neither doe i know any arminian or jesuite , that denies god's operative decree , as touching the very act of sinne , by way of concurrence in the producing of it . when calvin will have the evill of sinne come to passe , deo volente , god willing it , he denies not any more then beza doth , that it comes to passe by god's permission of it . but calvin rests not in a bare permissions and no marvaile . for the scripture saith not , that god permitted pharaoh to refuse to let israel goe , but plainly and energetically thus ; i will harden pharaoh's heart that he shall not let israel goe , i will harden pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them , i will rent the kingdome from solomon ; not i will permit it to be rented ; and so throughout . bellarmine himselfe contents not himselfe with a bare permission , but farther saith , god doth rule and governe the wills of wicked men ; yea , torquet & flectit , he wrests and bends them . and austin often saith , he enclines them unto evill . and whereas it is farther added out of calvin that a man is blind , volente & jubente deo , god willing and commanding it . is it not expresse scripture , es . . . make the heart of this people fat , make their eares heavy , and shut their eyes . so that calvin doth but accomodate himselfe to scripture phrase . but when we come to the explication of this either in christian reason , or by comparing one place of scripture with an other , we say that to make their hearts fat , their eares heavy , and to shut their eys : and to give them the spirit of slumber , eyes that they should not see , and eares that they should not heare ; is no more then , not to give them hearts to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare . yet where calvin saith this , i cannot find , the quotation here is so disturbed ; but i guesse the authour would referre us to lib. . institut . cap. . prima & secunda sect : but i find no such thing there , but speaking of god's providence in blinding ahab , thus he writes , vult deus perfidum ahab decipi ; god will have perfidious ahab to be deceived . this is plaine out of the kings . . who shall entise ahab that he may goe , and fall at ramoth gilead ; operam suam offert diabolus ad eam rem , the divell offers his service for this , saith calvin . and doth not the scripture expresly testifie as much ? there came forth a spirit and stood before the lord , and said i will entise him ; and the lord said unto him , wherewith ? and he said , i will goe out and be a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets . calvin goes on , mittitur cum certo mandato , ut sit spiritus mendax in ore omnium prophetarum ; god sends him with a certaine command to become a lying spirit in the mouth of all ahab's prophets . this also the scripture testifies as expresly , as the former ; then the lord said , thou shalt entise him and prevaile also ; goe forth and doe so . now let the indifferent judge , whether this authour might not as well calumniate the holy ghost the inditer of this scripture , as calvin who proceeds but according unto scripture in that which he delivers . now let every sober man judge whether hereby it doth not manifestly appeare , excoecari achabum , that ahab was blinded by the devill , deo volente ac jubente , the lord willing and commanding it ; but this taken apart from the instance in reference whereunto it is delivered , a man might suspect his meaning were , that god commands a man to shut his own eyes , & blind himselfe . and judge i pray whether to say , that this whole providence of god concerning ahab , was no more then permission , deserves not to be called , figmentum , a fiction , as indeed calvin calleth it . to this he addes the joynt profession of the apostles touching god's providence in crucifying of christ ; in absalom's incest , the chaldees bloudy execution in the land of iuda , and the assyrians before them , which in scripture is called the worke of god &c. and concludes it to be manifest , nugari eos & ineptire , qui in locum providentiae dei nudam permissionem substituunt , that they doe but toy and trifle , who in place of god's providence substitute a naked permission . and this authour doth but calumniate calvin's expression , in rendring the word ineptire , by playing the foole . ineptire in the proprietie thereof , is in this case to faile of fit and congruous interpretation and accommodation . and may he not justly taxe those who understand such scriptures , as speake of god's smiting men with the spirit of slumber and giddinesse , of blinding their mindes , infatuating and hardning their hearts of a permission , and suffering of men to be blinded and hardned ? i had thought common sense might have justified him in this ; taking calvin aright , who denies not permission in all this , but nudam permissionem , naked permission ; as much as to say these scripture passages doe signifie more then permission ; and as i have said before bellarmin himselfe doth not satisfie himselfe with a naked permission in such like providence divine as here is mentioned . i thinke he may justly say that to explicate excecation and obduration by permission is such an explication as will satisfie no sober man , and that such a solution is too frivolous . and as for god's prescience , it is apparent that the horrible outrages committed upon the holy son of god , the scripture testifies not to have been foreknowen only by god , but by the hand and counsell of god predetermined also ; & more then this , cleare reason doth justifie that the ground of god's foreknowing ought , is his foredetermining of it , as i have often proved by invincible demonstration . . who mistakes the nature of permission most , we or this censurer , let the indifferent judge . it is apparent that he puts no difference between permission humane , and permission divine . sure i am suarez requires to permission divine a concurrence to the act , the obliquity whereof is permitted . and more then that both scotus of old without question , and the dominicans of late , and bradwardine before them maintaine this concurrence to be by way of determining the will to every act thereof . but all these mistake the nature of permission , if we believe this authour upon his word wherein he carrieth himselfe very authoritatively , no pope like him . yet he is ready to give his reason for it , though with manifest contradiction to himselfe , but let us consider it . . permission is an act of god's consequent and judiciary will , by which he punisheth men for abusing their freedom &c. most untrue , and manifestly convictable of untruth by that which himselfe delivered but a little before in this very section , where he said , it is true that god hath decreed to suffer sinne ; for otherwise there would be none . by this it is manifest that whensoever sinne is committed , there had place god's permission of sinne , otherwise there would have been no sinne , therefore permission had place in the very first sinne that was committed by man , and angells . judge reader with what felicity he comes to censure and correct the mistakes of others about permission . as austin sometimes said of one opposing him , noverit se esse obduratum ; so mayest thou not say of this authour in this discourse of his , noverit se esse excaecatum , let him take notice how himselfe is blinded ? the lord giving israel up to their own hearts lusts ; he like a resolute doctor will have to proceed by way of mere permission . yet the lord saith not , he permitted them to their own lusts ; and rom : . , , . observe , first looke what he permitted came to passe throughout , even to abominable courses . secondly , observe , the judgment of god is noted herein . they received the recompence of their own errour as was meet . what ? and are god's judgments executed only by god's permission , and that by the hands of them that are judged and punished ? such is the accuratenes of this authours divinity comming to correct the mistakes of others about permission . and for the proofe of all this we have this authour 's bare word without any reason or authority represented by him . as for that of ezechiel not chap : . , but chap : . goe and serve every one his idels ; this hath the forme of a command , rather then of a permission ; but the lord hereby signifies , that in serving him , while they serve other gods , they doe but profane his holy name in serving him , and undoubtedly they provoked god more hereby , then the heathens who served not him at all , but other gods only . so that the lord seemes to signifie , that he had rather , they should not serve him at all , as revelations . i would thou wer'st either hot or cold , but seeing thou art luke-warme , i will spue thee out of my mouth ; but be it as the authour would have it , did here god begin to permit them ? their former disobedience was it not a consequent of god's permission ? for if god had not permitted their disobedience , surely it had not been by the authours discourse in the beginning of this section . as touching that revelations . . i hope by the same rule of this positive theologue , not only their continuing to be unjust , was by god's permission , but their first being and beginning to be unjust was by god's permission also . and surely if this man's word be of any credit , all sinners were first permitted to sinne , otherwise they had never sinned , and not the obstinate and willfull only . were not the angells innocent before their first sin ? was not adam innocent before his first sin ? and did not god permit both angells and men to sin their first sin ? if not ; what truth is in this authour's word , when he said , god hath decreed to suffer sin ? for otherwise there would be none . and if he be not worthy to be believed , in this his credit is crackt , and deserves not to be believed in ought . . we have been more beholding unto this authour , since he came to meet with our distinctions , then throughout all his former discourse ; as i have shewed already in part , & shall discover more by god's helpe ( not his permission only ) ere we part from this . he seemes to be conscious of some thing and fearefull of giving too much advantage , as appeares by his expressiō , when he saith that permission ( of sin ; for so he should say ) supposeth a possibility of sinning or not sinning . now this is nothing congruous to his former expressions whereby it was made to suppose that , a man is able to stand . for to be able to stand , is to have an active power in him whereby he is able to stand ; but to have a possibility of standing , or not sinning is not so . for though a man hath no power in himselfe to stand or to abstaine from sinne , yet if there be a power in god to makehim stand , and to preserve him from falling , this is sufficient to make good , that a man hath a possibility of standing and abstaining from sinne . and we are willing to confesse that god is able not only to preserve any man that stands from falling , but also to raise any man that is fallen ; and to make him stand . thus florus , habet homo post illam damnationem liberum arbitrium , quo propriâ voluntate inclinari potest & inclinatur ad malum , habet liberum arbitrium quo possit assurgere ad bonum ; ut autem assurgat ad bonum , non est propriae virtutis , sed gratiae dei miserantis . nam & qui mortuus est dici potest posse vivere , non tamen suâ virtute , sed dei. ita & liberum arbitrium hominis semel sauciatum , semel mortuum potest sanari , non tamen suâ virtutè , sed gratiâ miserantis dei. et ideo omnes homines admonentur , omnibus verbum praedicatur , quia habent posse credere , posse converti ad deum ; ut verbo extrinsecus admonente , & deo intus suscitante , qui audiunt , reviviscant . after adam's fall man hath free will , whereby of his own accord he may be and is inclined unto evill , he hath free will whereby he may arise unto that which is good ; but to arise unto good is not of his own power , but of gods grace commiserating . for of him also who is dead , it may be said , that he may live , yet not of his own power , but by the power of god. so the free will of men being once wounded , once dead may be healed not by ' its own power , but by the grace of god shewing mercy . and therefore all men are admonished , the word is preached unto all , because this they have that they may believe , they may be converted unto god ; to the end that by the word admonishing outwardly , and god stirring them up inwardly , they which heare may be revived . observe by the way a manifest incongruity in saying that permission is a not hindring them from falling , who are able to stand for they who are permitted to fall , and not hindered from falling , are supposed to stand , and not only to be able to stand . it seemes this authour cannot endure that permission of sinne , should consist in the withholding of a grace needfull , to abstaine from sinne . whence it followeth evidently that in this authour's opinion , either god's permission of sinne is not the withholding of any grace at all ; or if it be it is the withholding only of such a grace , without which neverthelesse man may keep himselfe from sinne ; and consequently , though such a grace be granted , yet it is indifferent for him to sinne , as well as to abstaine from sinne ; if it be no withholding of grace at all , it followes that like as when a man sins it is not for want of grace : so when a man abstaines from sinne , it is not by vertue of any grace of god granted him thereunto ; yet the lord tells king abimelech expresly i kept thee from sinning against me . if he pretends that some grace is withheld whensoever a man sinneth , but will not say that is was necessary for the avoiding of sinne it followeth that when man is permitted to sinne , he is no more apt to sinne , then while such grace was denied him , and consequently no more apt to abstaine from sinne when such a grace is granted him , and consequently in granting such a grace he permits him still to sinne , as well as in denying it ; and in denying he permits him to doe good , as much as in granting it ; so that still it is not god that keepeth a man from sinne , as often as he abstaineth from it , but merely the power of his own free will. whereby it is evident that this authour as well denies , that god is the authour of any good , as that he is the authour of any evill : but man is authour of the one as well as of the other . the power of doing good he will grant is from god , neither can it be denied , but that the power of doing evill is from god. he will grant likewise that god is ready to concurre to any good act if man will , and i presume he will not deny , but that god concurres also to the substance of every evill act . the only difference that remaines is this ; god perswades only to good , and disswades only that which is evill . now this third and last assertion we grant as well as he . yet he layes to our charge that we make god the authour of evill , but cares not at all how he denies god to be the authour of any good in the actions of men , and makes noe place for any grace save such , as is hortatory , which is performed usually by the ministery of men . yet consider what bradwardine sometimes arch-bishop of canterbury elect hath written in this kind before luther or calvin were borne . the title of the fourth chapter of his second booke is this . that free will being tempted cannot of his own strength without the helpe of god and his grace overcome any temptation . of the first this , that free will strengthned with what created grace soever cannot without another speciall succour of god overcome any temptation . of the sixth this , that , that speciall succour of god is the unconquerable grace of god. of the seventh this ; that no man though not tempted , can by the strength of his free will alone without created grace or with created grace , how great soever it be , without the speciall asistance of god avoide any sin : & all these propositions he demonstrates with variety of argument . behold the ingenuity of this authour ; he flies in the face of calvin and beza , and other our divines , for maintaining that unlesse god by his grace keep and preserve a man effectually from sinning , it cannot be that he should abstaine from sinne . bradwardine maintained the same before any of these were borne yet he saith nothing to him , le ts all his arguments alone ; but upbraides us for maintaining the same doctrine , without giving any reason to convict us of our errour . adde to this , which i have omitted , the corolary of that seventh chapter in bradwardin formerly mentioned is this , that it is the will of god , which preserves them that are tempted from falling , and them that are not tempted , both from temptation and from sinne . not one of the arguments whereby he confirmes any of these positions , doth this authour goe about to answer . in like manner alvarez . positâ permissione divinâ infallibiliter peccat homo ; upon supposition of god's permission , man sins infallibly . the proposition he intends to prove in that disputation is this , therefore a man is not converted because he is not aided of god. but both he and we deny that hereupon a man sinneth necessarily alwaies , but only in some cases . in some cases it followeth , as namely a man borne in sinne , and in the state of corruption , the naturall fruits whereof are infidelity and impenitency , untill god affords a man the grace of regeneration , he cannot believe , he cannot repent . they that are in the flesh cannot please god. thou after the hardnesse of thy heart that cannot repent . therefore they could not believe . in which case god is not the cause of infidelity , and impenitency ; but these proceed naturally and necessarily from that originall corruption wherein they are conceived and borne . god is only the naturall cause why this their naturall corruption continues uncured . for none can cure it but god , it being a work nothing inferior to the raising of them from the dead . yet he is no culpable cause of this . for as much as he is not bound to any , but he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . so that necessarily without the grace of regeneration , every man continueth in his naturall corruption , devoyd of faith , of hope , and love . these being supernaturall , and whereunto no man can attaine with out supernaturall grace . in like manner , hence it followeth that no naturall man can performe any morall good act in a gracious & acceptable manner in the sight of god , because ●he fountaines of such performances , are not found in naturall men . but they have a free power as to commit any naturall evill worke ; so to abstaine from it ; though not in a gracious manner : free power as to abstaine from any vertuous act , so to performe it also , though not in a gracious manner . they may be temperate , chast , just , and the like ; but their vertuous actions are not truly vertues in a christian account , because they know not god , nor christ , much lesse doe they believe in him , and performe these vertuous actions out of their love unto him . if maccovius , and whitaker , and pareus be of the same mind , and the dominicans with them , and bradwardine before them all ; let the indifferent reader consider what an hungry opposition is made by this authour , not offering to answer any one of their arguments , nor of mine neither , in my vindiciae ; nor saith ought by way of reply upon any answer to the like argument of arminius . the resolution of all that here he delivers , determining in a rule himselfe proposeth , without reason or authority to justifie it . a rule as here it is applyed conteining a notorious untruth . for causa deficiens in no case can be efficiens in proper speech , any more , then causa efficiens can be accounted deficiens , unlesse it be understood in divers kinds as for example , efficiens naturaliter may be deficiens moraliter , and deficiens moraliter may be efficiens naturaliter . an efficient cause naturally , may be deficient morally , and so a cause deficient morally , may be efficient naturally . least of all can it have place in the present question , which is of the cause of sinne . for sinne as sinne , evill as evill , non habet causam efficientem , sed deficientem ; hath no cause efficient , but deficient only ; as austin hath long agoe determined ; and it is a rule generally received and never that i know denied of any . againe causa deficiens in necessariis may be culpable i confesse , and so interpretativè ( as they say ) may be interpreted to be as good as an efficient . as in a civill consideration it is said of the magistrate , that , qui non vetat peccare cum possit , jubet . he that forbiddeth not a man to sinne when it is in his power , or when he hath authority to forbid , 't is as if he should command the committing of that sin . now this is only in such a case , where the necessitie respects the person who is the deficient cause , as namely in case he be bound in duty to afford help and succour to him that cannot keepe himselfe from sinning without the succour of an other , not otherwise . and therefore it reacheth not to god , who is not bound to preserve any man or creature from sinning ; least of all is he bound to regenerate a man that is borne in sinne . adam was created in all sufficiency that the reasonable creature was capable of , without any pronenes unto evill , but rather in a morall propension to that which was good ; and his fall hath brought this corruption upon all mankind , even a necessitie of sinning , as arminius and corvinus confesse . he wanted no power to doe that which was good , or to abstaine from sin , but ever since his fall , impotency to that which is good , & pronenesse unto that which is evill hath been the naturall inheritance of all mankind . and as for the permission of adam's fall , his sin was in a thing naturally indifferent , the holines of his nature not inclining him more to abstain from that fruit any more , then to partake of it . neither doe we say that god did withhold from adam any grace that these our adversaries maintaine to be necessary for the avoiding of that sinne which was committed by him . how adam himselfe was brought by eve to eate of that fruit is not expressed . as for eve the temptation which satan used with her , & which did prevaile is expressed : he allured her with the representation of the powerfull nature of that , to make them as gods knowing good and evill , & he made this seem credible by the very denomination which god gave unto the tree , the tree of knowledge of good and evill . it seemes not likely that she knew who it was that spake unto her in the serpent , nor that she was acquainted with the fall of angells . then againe the desire of knowledge , is no evill thing it selfe , or stands in any contradiction to the integrity of a reasonable creature : nay nothing more agreeable to the nature of the best , it brings such a perfection with it . only the errour was , in affecting it this way . god did not keep the devill off ; nor reveale unto her who it was that spake unto her ; much lesse his apostaticall condition ; least of all his project to supplant them . neither did he quicken that holy feare which he had inspired into her to resist it at the first , & to goe to her husband to acquaint him with it . she might thinke that the knowledge of good and evill might make her more fit for the service of god , then unfit . all which considered , her will being moved to seek this perfection by tasting of such a fruit , there was no cause or reason to hinder her from tasting it , save only the consideration of god's prohibition . for the will of every reasonable creature is naturally apt to affect that which is good , and though that good may prove evill in some circumstance , yet if that circumstance be not considered , the will proceeds to affect it . how long the devill was exercised in this temptation we know not . inconsideration is conceived by durandus to be the originall of that sinne of theirs ; and god was not bound to maintaine this consideration quick in her , and of the danger of such a transgression . in fine she came to a will & resolution to tast of it ; to the producing of this act , as a naturall thing , the lord concurred , as all confesse , namely to the substance of the act . the question is whether he concurred to the effecting of it absolutely or conditionally ? it was as true of adam and eve , that in him they lived and moved and had their being , as it is of us . we say god as a first cause moves every second cause ; but agreeably to their natures ; necessary agents to worke every thing they worke necessarily ; free agents to doe every thing they doe , freely . but to say that god made them velle modo vellent , to will in case they would will , is so absurd as nothing more ; the act of willing being hereby made the condition of it selfe , and consequently both before and after it selfe . see what i have delivered concerning this in my vindiciae lib. . digr : . and digr : . of the nature of permission , more at large , where unto this authour is content to answer just nothing . sect : . there are two things say they in every ill act . first , the materiall part which is the substance of the action . secondly , the formall part which is the evill or obliquitie of it . god is the authour of the action it selfe , but not of the obliquitie and evill that cleaveth to it , as he that causeth a lame horse to goe , is the cause of his going , but not of his lame going . and therefore it followeth not from their opinion that god is the authour of sinne . first , all sinnes receive not this distinction , because of many sins , the acts themselves are sinfull ; as of the eating of the forbidden fruit , and saul's sparing of agag , and the fat beasts of the amalekites . secondly , it is not true that they make the decree of god only of actions , & not of their aberrations . for they make it to be the cause of all those meanes that lead to damnation and therefore of sinfull actions , as sinfull , and not as bare actions . for actions deserve damnation , not as actions but as trangressions of gods law . . to this simile i say that the rider or master that shall resolve first to flea his horse , or knock him on the head , and then to make him lame , that for his halting , he may kill him , is undoubtedly the cause of his halting : and so god if he determine to cast men into hell , and then to bring them into a state of sinne , that for their sinnes he may bring them to ruine , we cannot conceive him to be lesse then the authour , as well of their sins , as of those actions to which they doe inseperably adhere , and that out of gods intention to destroy them . this distinction of that which is materiall and that which is formall in sinne is commonly used by aquinas . secun : q : . art : , in corp : augustinus in definitione peccati posuit duo , unum quod pertinet ad substantiam actûs humani , quod est quasi materiale in peccato ; cum dicit dictum vel factum vel concupitum ; aliud autem quod pertinet ad rationem mali quod est quasi formale in peccato cum dixit contra legem aeternam . so then the substance of the act is the materiall part in sinne ; and the opposition of this act to the law of god is the formall part of it , both according to aquinas ; and according to austin also . and q : . art : . corp . he defineth sinne to be actus inordinatus , an inordinate act , and distinguisheth the act from the inordination of it . q : . art : . he proposeth the question , whether the act of sin be from god ? and in the conclusion resolves it thus , cum actus peccati sit ens , necessariò est à deo , considering that the act of sinne is a thing having being , necessarily it is of god. and in the body of the article , dicendum quod actus peccati & est ens , & est actus , & ex utroque habet quod sit à deo ; the resolution is that the act of sinne , is both a thing that hath being , and an act , and in each condition it hath , that it is of god. and he proves this both by authority and by reason . as for the defect of this act , that non reducitur in deum tanquam in causam , sed in liberum arbitrium , that is not charged upon god as the cause thereof , but on a man's free will. and he illustrates it thus , sicut defectus claudicationis reducitur in tibiam curvam sicut in causam , non autem in virtutem motivam à quâ tamen causatur quicquid est motionis in claudicatione . like as the defect called halting is charged upon a crooked legge as the cause thereof , and not upon the motive faculty , though from it proceeds all the motion that is found in the halting : neither did i ever read any school . divine that contradicted this distinction . mr. mason doth without alleadging any authority for it . yet he might have alleadged arminius opposing after this manner , though before him , that i know , not any . . we say not only of many sins , but of every sinne , which hath any act therein , that the acts themselves are sinfull , because every such sinne , being actuall , it is actus cum defectu , an act with a defect , that is an act defective . as aquinas speakes in the place immediatly before alleadged , and this defect is in respect of the law of god. as austin defineth sinne to be , dictum , factum , concupitum contra legem dei , a thought , word , or deed against the law of god. and this is enough i thinke to denominate it sinfull but the argument used by this authour is the very same which was formerly used by arminius , and whereunto i have answered ; lib. . de permiss . sect : , and that after this manner . be it so that the act it selfe is forbidden , and consequently the act it selfe is inordinate ; but what will it therefore follow that these two are not to be distinguished , to wit , the act , and the inordination of it ? a strange liberty of disputing . a man's hand is sometimes inordinate , as being monstrous , either having too much , or too little ; as either wanting five fingers , or having more then five : what therefore shall it not be lawfull for us to distinguish between the hand and the monstrosity of the hand ? . the wall it selfe is white ; what therefore shall we not distinguish between the wall , and the white colour of it ? a man himselfe is vertuous and vicious ; shall this hinder us from due distinguishing between the man and his morall condition , whether vertuous or vicious ; many other arguments are represented by arminius which this authour toucheth not ; yet in the place forementioned i have shaken them all to peeces , such is the rotten condition of them . and over & above i have proved , not that in every sin the act is to be distinguished from the inordination of it ; but that in every sin of commission there is place for this distinction , and that after this manner . every sinne of commission , is an act inordinate ; but in every inordinate act we are to distinguish between the act it selfe , and the inordination of it . and that the act and the inordination of it are two , i prove thus . that if they are one and the same then we may well say that the act is an inordination ; but this is most false . for nothing can be affirmed or predicated of the same thing both in the abstract , and concrete ( god himselfe excepted ) as for example you may say of a wall , that it is white , you cannot say of it that it is whitenes . for the wall is in the predicament of substance , but whitenes being a colour is in the predicament of quality . . againe an inordination is a privation of order . but no act is formally a privation , and consequently neither can it be formally an inordination . . an entitie positive , & a terme privative cannot be one and the same formally , but two distinct notions . now every act is a positive thing , but inordination is a mere privation . . lastly god is confessed by all to be the cause of the act , but if the act be all one with the inordination , he should be the cause not of the act only , but of the inordination , that is of the sinfullnes also . . observe his shifting carriage . it is our tenet that god is the authour of the action it selfe , but not of the obliquity : and himselfe hath expresly acknowledged this to be our tenet in the beginning of this section now whereas he makes shew here of proving that we make god the authour not of the action only , but of the obliquity also , he performes no such matter ; but only this , that we make the object of god's decree , not the action only , but the aberration also ; but in all this there is no contradiction unto us ; we willingly grant that in as much as god permits sinne , he will have sinne come to passe , by his permission , every good thing that comes to passe , he will have it come to passe by his being the authour of it and effecting it ; the evill that comes to passe , he will have come to passe also , not by his being the authour of it and effecting it , but only by his permitting of it . so that still that of austin holds good . non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit . not any thing comes to passe unlesse god will have it come to passe . and according to the eleaventh article of religion established in the church of ireland , god from all eternity did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine whatsoever in time shall come to passe ; and according to the expresse word of god testifiing that the tenne kings in giving their kingdomes did herein doe the will of god. and that the horrible outrages committed upon the person of the holy son of god by herod . pontius pilate , the gentiles and people of israel were by the hand and counsell of god before determined to be done we say sinfull courses ( not hand over head ) but unrepented of , lead unto damnation , but not as meanes . for they are neither man's meanes ; for if they were , then the end also whereunto they tend , should be intended by him ; neither are they any meanes of god : for all meanes are the workes of him that intends the end ; so is not the sinne of man the worke of god , but the permission of sinne is his worke : and this is the meanes which he intends thereby to bring to passe his intended end , which yet on the part of reprobates is not the damnation of them , but the manifestation of his glory in the way of vindicative justice , which in scripture phrase is called the declaration of his wrath . for god made all things for himselfe , even the wicked against the day of evill . and to this end he doth not only permit them both to sinne , and to persevere therein without repentance , but also to damne them for their sinne . and this worke of god namely the permission of sinne is as requisite for the manifestation of his mercy on the part of his elect , as for the declaration of his wrath , on the part of reprobates . yet who was ever found so absurd as to say that we make the sinfull actions of men to be the meanes which god useth to bring about the salvation of his elect. so little cause have we to make use of this distinction as the action it selfe and the sinfullnesse thereof , to shew in what sense it is a meanes which god useth whereby to bring about the damnation of man. for we utterly deny sinne to be any such meanes of god , but the permission thereof only is the meanes whereby to bring about not their damnation , as this authour suggesteth , but the meanes ( together with the damnation for sinne ) whereby he bringeth to passe the declaration of his just wrath . but men of this authours spirit ; unlesse they be suffered to calumniate at pleasure ; and corrupt their opposites tenet at pleasure , they can say just nothing . it is true actions deserve damnation only as they are transgressions of god's law , but we deny that these transgressions are god's meanes , but only the permission of them is his meanes ; and by permitting these transgressions , as also by damning for them , he brings to passe his glorious end , to wit , the declaration of his just wrath . ly , it is most untrue that god brings any man into a state of sinne ; he brings himselfe into it most freely , god having no other hand in the sinne but as permitting it , that is as not preserving from it . indeed if he did bring men into sinne , and they not rather bring themselves thereinto , he were the authour of it . but it is well knowne that sinne cannot transcend the region of acts naturall . all acts supernaturall must needs be the worke of grace , and truly good ; but every sinfull act is merely naturall , never supernaturall . now never any of our divines denyed a man liberty in his greatest corruption , unto acts naturall ; the devill himselfe hath liberty thus farre . it is true originall sinne is brought upon all by the sinne of adam ; for hereby the fountaine of humane nature became corrupted ; but in this very sin of adam we had an hand , if there be any truth in scripture which testifies that , in adā we all have sinned . this is the doctrin which the author spights , though he be more wise then to publish to the world his spleen against it : and i have seen under his hand where he denies originall sinne to be veri nominis pecatum , sinne truly so called and albeit m. hoord makes a flourish in saying that god might justly damne all man-kind for the sinne of adam ; and that also was this authour's doctrine in the lectures which he read at magdalen hall ; yet i have good cause to doubt whether this be his opinion now , and not rather the same with pelagius his opinion , saving the difference which pelagius did put between not entering into the kingdome of heaven and damnation . as for all other sins which we call actuall , they are , as i said , naturall only , and not supernaturall ; and therefore no man wants liberty , as to doe them , so to abstaine from them ; only he wants a morall and spirituall liberty to abstaine from them in a gracious manner , according to that of aquinas . licet aliquis non possit gratiam adipisci qui reprobatur à deo , tamen quod in hoc peccatum vel illud labatur , ex ejus libero arbitrio contingit . though a man who is reprobated of god cannot obtaine grace , yet that he falleth into this or that sinne it comes to passe of his own free will. it is true also even in god's providence concerning acts naturall , there is a great mystery . for as god foretold david that , his neighbour should lye with his wives ; and though he sinned secretly , yet the lord would doe this openly . so he foretold that , upon that altar which ieroboam erected , a child that should be borne of the house of david , iosiah by name , should burne the prophets bones . and that cyrus also should build him a citty and let goe his captives : yet who doubts , but that cyrus did freely deliver the jewes out of babylon ? and iosiah did as freely burne the prophets bones upon the alter in bethel , as ever they did action in their lives ? so absalom did as freely defile his fathers concubines . then againe we deny that the damnation of any man is the end that god intends , but the manifestation of his own glory . and therfore though he hath made the wicked against the day of evill ; yet both that , and all things he hath made for himselfe . and to this tends both the permission of sinne , and the damnation of reprobates for their sin ; and in no moment of nature , are either of these intended before the other , both being joyntly meanes for the procuring of another end . and if permission of sinne were first in intention with god , and then damnation as these men would have it , it followeth evidently by the most generally received rules of schooles that permission of sinne should be last in execution , that is men should first be damned , and afterwards permitted to fall into sinne . this is the issue of these men's orthodoxy and accurate divinity . section . the will is determined to an object two waies . . by compulsion against the bent and inclination of it . . by necessity according to the naturall desire and liking of it . god's predestination say they , de termineth the will to sinne this last way , but not the first ; it forceth no man to doe that which he would not , but carrieth him towards that which he would . when men sin , t is true they cannot choose ; and it is as true , they will not choose . it followeth not therefore from the grounds of their doctrine that god's decree is the cause of men's sins , but their own wicked wills . . the ancients made no distinction between these two words ( necessity ) and ( compulsion ) but used them in this argument promiscuously ; and did deny that god did necessitate men to sinne , least they should grant him hereby to be the authour of sin , as i have touched before , and shall intimate againe afterward . nor did the school men put any difference between them , as may appeare by the testimony of m. calvin , who speaking of the school-distinction of the will 's threefold liberty ; from necessity , from sin , from misery , saith , this distinction i could willingly receive , but that it confoundeth necessitie with coaction . . that which necessitateth the will to sinne is as truly the cause of sinne , as that which forceth it , because it maketh the sinne to be inevitably committed , which otherwise might be avoided ; and therefore if the divine decree necessitate man's will to sinne , it is as truly the cause of sinne as if it did inforce it . . that which necessitates the will to sinne , is more truly the cause of the sinne , then the will is ; because it overruleth the will , and beareth all the stroke , taketh from it , ' its true liberty , by which it should be lord of it selfe , and disporser of ' its own acts , and in respect of which it hath been usually called by philosophers and fathers too , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a power which is under the insuperable check and controule of no lord but it selfe . it overruleth , i say , & maketh it become but a servile instrument , irresistably subject to superiour command and determination ; and therefore is a truer cause of all such acts and sins , as proceed from the will so determined , then the will is . for when two causes concurre to the producing of an effect , the one a principle overruling cause , the other but instrumentall , and wholly at the devotion of the principall ; then is the effect in all reason to be imputed to the principall , which by the force of ' its influxe and impression produceth it , rather then to the subordinate and instrumentall which is but a mere servant in the production of it we shall find it ordinary in scripture to ascribe the effect to the principall agent . it is not ye that speak , saith christ , but the spirit of my father that speaketh in you . i laboured more abundantly then they all , yet not i , but the grace of god which was in me . and i live : yet not i , but christ liveth in me saith st. paul. gal : . . in these and many other places the effect or work spoken of , is taken from the instrument , and given to the principall agent ; which being so , though man's will worke with god's decree in the commission of sinne , and willeth the sin which it doth , yet seing what the will doth , it doth by the commanding power of god's allmighty decree , and so it doth that otherwise it cannot doe ; the sin committed cannot so rightly be ascribed to man's will , the inferiour as to god's necessitating decree the superiour cause . . that which makes a man sinne by way of necessitie , that is with , and not against his will , is the cause of sin in a worse manner , then that which constraineth him to sinne against his will ; as he which by powerfull perswasions drawes a man to stab , to hang , to poison himselfe is in a grosser manner the cause of that evill , and unnaturall action then he that by force compells him ; because he maketh him to consent to his own death ; and so if gods decree doe not only make men sin ; but sin willingly too ; not only cause that they shall ( malè agere ) doe evill ; but ( malè velle ) will evill , it hath the deeper hand in the sinne . god determines the will to sinne by necessitie , though not by compulsion : this he obtrudes upon our devines as their opinion , but quotes none , is it likely that he who quotes beza to shew that in his opinion , god doth not only permit sinne , but will sinne ; and calvin to shew , that a man's mind is blinded , volente & jubente deo ; would not quote some or other of our divines to prove that which he obtrudes upon them ? if his common place booke could afford him any such quotation out of any one of them , to shew who they be , and where they say that , god determines the will to sinne by necessity though not by compulsion . was there ever the like crimination made against any without naming them that say so , and the place where , and their own words ? or hath this man or any of his spirit deserved any credit to be trusted this way ? the very phrase of determining in latine is no word of course with our divines in this argument . it is the phrase of the dominicans . but doe they say that god determines the will to sinne ? i doe not thinke he can produce one of them that expresseth himselfe so unscholastically , so absurdly . alvarez saith that , god by his effectuall decree predetermineth second causes to worke . he saith that god doth predetermine the will to the act of sinne , as it is an act . that the first root of contingency is the will of god. then to what doth god determine the will in their opinion ? is it to the act only and not to the manner of its production ? namely , to produce it voluntarily and freely ? nothing lesse though this authour counts it his wisdome to conceale this . god by his omnipotency doth cause , that man whose heart he moves to will and will freely . againe , god's generall concourse is a divine , immediate influence into second causes whereby they are , foremoved , applyed and determined to worke every one according to the condition of its nature ; the naturall cause naturally ; the free cause freely ; as i have professedly delivered . disput . . . and that in such sort freely , as they can choose to doe otherwise if they will , and that in the very instant wherin they doe what they doe . but come we to consider his answer . . touching that which he saith of the ancients , he gives us his bare word for it , as touching the confounding of necessitie and compulsion ; yet bernard i confesse willingly , in talking of liberty from necessity , understands by necessity coaction . he saith farther , that those ancients did deny that god did necessitate men to sinne , least they should grant thereby that god is the authour of sinne . but i doe not thinke he can shew this phrase of necessitating the will any way to be found among the ancients , what he hath touched before i have considered , what he shall intimate hereafter , i hope i shall not let it passe unsaluted . and the truth is to necessitate hath such an emphasis with it as to perswade that whatsoever a man is necessitated to do , that he doth by constraint against his will. and it is a rule commonly received that voluntas non potest cogi , the will cannot be forced ; which is most true , as touching actus eliciti , the acts of the will inward and immediate , and not so of actus imperati , acts outward and commanded . but bradwardine who alone useth this phrase among'st school-divines , takes it in no such sense , but only for an effectuall operation of god upon the will moving it to worke this or that , not necessarily , but freely ; which this authour most judiciously dissembleth all along for desparing to prevaile by true and substantiall information of the understanding ; perturbundis affectibus suffuratur ; by a corrupt proposition of his adversaries tenet , hopes to worke distast upon the readers affections . bradwardines position is this , god can after a sort necessitate every created will to ' its free act , and to a free cessation , & vacation from act : and hath a corollary to this effect ; that some kind of necesity , and liberty are not repugnant , but may consist together . againe , god doth after a sortnecessitate every created will , unto every free act therefore , and to every free cessation and vacation from act that by necessity antecedent naturally . and he addes a corollary , that some kind of antecedent necessity and liberty are not repugnant , and may consist together . this distinction of liberty from necessitie , liberty from sinne , liberty from misery , i find in bernard , and vossius alleadgeth it only out of him , and the school-men might take it up after him . bernard hath many obscure passages in the prosecuting of it , especially in reference to the two first members . neither doth vossius take any paines to cleare them from a manifest contradiction in shew : and no marvaile if doctor potter doth not , in stating the opinion of the church of england in the point of free will , which he undertakes very magnificently in his answer to charity mistaken ; he was content to be led by his blind guid : now the seeming contradiction is this . if there be in a naturallman no liberty from sinne , then is he necessarily carried into sinne ; and how then is there any liberty in him from necessitie ? unlesse necessitie be taken as all one with constraint . and bernard sometimes in that very treatise doth clearly expresse himselfe to understand thereby coaction . and so m. fulkes in his answer to the rhemish testament , denying unto man liberty from sinne , yet grants unto him a liberty from coaction . and indeed sinne to the profane person is like a sweet morsell which he rolleth under his tongue , as the booke of iob speaks , he comes not constrained thereunto ; but naturally takes delight therein ; & i doubt too many there be , who though they are driven to confesse , that a naturall man hath no liberty from sinne ; yet they please themselves with a certaine expression of lindan's , that a man hath free will unto sinne ; hoping therehence to conclude when time serves , that a man as he hath freedome to commit it , so he hath freedome to abstaine from it , and so by a backe doore to draw in a tenet quite contrary to the first , namely that even a naturall man hath liberty from sinne . i am not sure that lindan did well understand his own expression , so as to know how to make it good , much lesse that they are able who licke their lips at it . but of this , and the clearing of bernard , and of the difference between liberty naturall , and liberty morall i have else where discoursed at large . and calvin observing this contradiction might well blame them that confound necessity , with coaction ; whereby a way is opened to conclude , that because a man is free from constraint of sinning , therefore he is free from necessity of sinning ; whereas originall sin doth necessarily incline him to sinfull actions & courses in generall ; though to this kind of sin in speciall , or to this particular , in what kindsoever , it doth not : yet by the way it is to be considered , that calvin in some particulars , as namely in gracious courses , did attribute so much to the efficacy of god's operation upon a man's will , as that the actions performed thereby though voluntary , yet in his opinion were not to be accounted free ; & indeed they are wrought in opposition & as it were in spight of a certain principall of corruption that in part remaines in the very best of god's children . but we see no reason to the contrary , but that , when once god hath planted in us a principle of new life , of the life of grace , by the spirit of regeneration , though all the powers thereof doe incline only to that which is good , like as the powers of naturall corruption incline only unto evill , yet the particular use and exercise of those is alwaies free : like as the particular use and exercise of the powers of our corruption is allwaies free to the committing of this or that sinne according unto emergent occasions standing in congruity to every man's particular dispositiō . . the authour keepes himselfe to the language of his own court , but he should not so imperiously put it upon his opposites to concurre with him in the language of ashdod . we know nothing that necessitates the will to sinne , but that originall corruption , wherein every man is conceived , and which we brought with us into the world . for that makes us impatient of a yoake , like unruly heyfers ; and nothing is more burthensome unto us in our corrupt nature , then the holy lawes of god ; the statutes of omri are not so , nor all the manner of the house of ahab ; these are punctually observed , when god's holy ordinances are proudly despised . god moves every creature to worke agreeably to ' its nature . necessary agents necessarily , contingent agents contingently , free agents freely . he doth not move to any such act as is sinfull , save only where the feare of god is not at all found , or not quickned , but the motions and suggestions of satan entertained ; nor then neither alwaies ; and that not only in his own children , but even in the hearts of the wicked to restraine from sinfull courses in spight of satans temptations , by injecting into their minds the consideration either of danger , or of shame ensu●ng , so in a naturall way to restraine from the committing of such an act as is sinfull ; especially when he seeth it prejudiciall to the peace of his church in generall , or any member thereof in particular ; otherwise if he gives them over to satan , and moves them agreably to his suggestions entertained by them , as being naturally well pleased with them , why should this seem strange to any ? so that not any sin is inevitably committed by the most wicked creature that lives upon the face of the earth , but he hath power enough ( i doe not say to avoid it , an absurd phrase as if sinne were a thing to be forced upon a man whether he would or no , but ) to abstaine from it , though not in a gracious manner , that being in the power of them only who have the spirit of regeneration dwelling in them . . in the same language he prosecutes his vile cause , giving manifest evidence to the world that it cannot be supported without lyes , nor embraced by any but those whom god in his secret judgments hath given over to strong illusions to believe lyes , it is not incredible to me that ever any papist or protestant hath affirmed that god necessitates the will to sinne ; they generally acknowledge that evill hath no cause efficient , but deficient only : the terme of god's operation is no other then the substance of the act , which as an entity , and as an act must necessarily proceed from god , as aquinas hath delivered . and albeit they maintaine that god's concurrence to the producing of the act doth worke upon the will of the creature which , from the first time that divines came resolutely unto the acknowledgment of this divine concourse to the act of sin , hath also been received as i have shewed in my vinaiciae . for peter lombard disputing on either side about this concurrence , leaves it indifferent to the reader to imbrace either part : either the affirmative that god doth concurre to every act , though it be sinfull or the negative . yet i say as many as doe maintaine the affirmative , doe so maintaine god's motion upon the creatures will , as to move it only agreably unto it's nature , namely to work freely not necessarily . like as he moves necessary agents to work necessarily , and contingent agents to worke contingently . and if this authour be ignorant hereof , which may well give him boldnes . for who so bold as blind bayard ? what doth he other in all this but betray his own shame comming to discourse on such an argument , as an asse comes to play upon an harp , as the proverbe speaks . but if he be not ignorant of this , what unshamefastnesse doth he manifest all along , making bold only upon the simplicity and ignorance of his reader to gull him , and abuse him , and draw him along to oppose the free grace of god in predestination and regeneration , under colour of making god the authour of sinne in the point of reprobation ; which yet he despaires of making good against us without notorious untruths , and that undoubtedly delivered against his own knowledge . for what authour hath he produced to justifie this that any of our divines maintaines that god necessitates the will of man to sin ? not any that i know using this phrase necessitate but papists , and among'st them none that i know but bradwardine a man renowned in his time both for eminent learning , and eminent piety , as appeares by sir henry savill's preface unto that book of his ; and he no where affirming that god necessitates any man unto sinne ; but only to the substance of the act ; & that not so as to make the will work necessarily , as the phrase imports in a vulgar eare , and unto a popular judgment ( whereupon alone this author takes his advantage most unconscionably ) but agreably to ' its nature , that is contingently and freely . for were he able to produce any one of our divines that affirmeth this , why doth he not ? is there any●hing throughout this whole discourse that more requires he should name the man , and quote the places , where this is affirmed , then this ? yet here we find a blank ; he carrieth it on magnificently upon his own bare word , which deserves no credit at our hands ; and is it possible to believe so foule a crimination without all evidence produced , unlesse faction and partiallity hath blinded his eyes ? should he have laied to our charge that we maintaine that god necessitates the will to any good act , and to overrule the will therein , we should utterly deny it without distinction . it is true he overrules the will of the flesh , but not the will of the spirit , the regenerate part , but moves it agreably to ' its nature , and to worke not only voluntarily but freely whatsoever it worketh . for albeit the regenerate part is like a morall vertue ( though as much transcendent to it , as a thing supernaturall transcends a thing naturall ) inclining only to that which is good ; yet is it alwaies moved to this particular good rather then unto an other most freely . like as a man's naturall corruption inclines a man only to evill ; yet to this kind of evill or to this particular evill , rather then to that , man is moved most freely . so that if we maintaine not that god workes a man to every good act , otherwise then freely ; let the very conscience of our enemies judge , whether we can maintaine that god necessitates the will either of men or of devills unto sinne . for it is apparent that god hath a double influence unto a good act . one unto it as unto an act , and that is influence generall ; another unto it as unto a good and gracious act , and that we acknowledge to be an influence speciall and supernaturall . but as touching an evill act , all sides confesse that god hath but a single influence thereunto and that generall , namely , as it is an act , not as it is evill . and albeit this influence which we call concurrence unto the act , be joyned with an influence into the will of the creature to move it to the producing of the same act ; yet this motion is no other thē whereby the will is moved to worke agreably to ' its nature ; that is freely . like as all other agents are moved by god , the first agents to worke agreably to their natures , necessary things to worke necessarily , contingent things contingently . so that in all this there is no overruling of the will , no liberty taken from her ; but rather she is maintained and established in her free condition , and moved agreably thereunto ; like as in the eleaventh article of ireland it is expressed . for after it is laid downe that , god from all eternity did by his unchangable counsell ordaine whatsoever in time should come to passe ; it is forthwith added that , hereby no violence us offered to the wills of the reasonable creatures , and neither the liberty nor the contingency of the second causes is taken away but established rather . but because of another claw that here is subjoyned by this authour , it is to be considered that the liberty of the creature is not equall unto the liberty of the creator god himselfe : but like as all other causes are but second causes , god alone the prime cause ; all other agents but second agents , god alone the first agent . so likewise all other free agents are but second free agents , god alone primum liberum , the first free agent . so that no liberty of the creature doth or can exempt it from the agency of god , in whom we live and move and have our being what a proud thing & presumptuous were it for the creature to aspire unto such an exemption . who oppose us in the point of free will more then papists ? yet see how alvarez disputes against this vise and presumptuous conceit , so much maintained by the jesuites , and after taken up by the arminians , who live by their scraps , as if they would be content to wash their dishes . the jesuites discourse thus , that the will may be free , she must have the dominion of her act , true saith alvarez , debet habere dominium sui actûs , non tamen oportet quod habeat primum & absolutum dominium sui actus , she must have the dominion overher act , but not the first and absolute deminion of her act . and disput . , he proposeth this question , whether the will hath her dominion of her act , and what dominion this is . in the resolution whereof he proposeth three conclusions . . the free will of man hath the dominion of her act as the next cause thereof . in this conclusion the divines on both sides doe concurre . . free will created in the actuall use of dominion and power which she hath over her acts , depends on god as of an absolute lord , predeliberating , and predetermining before the foreknowledge of the creatures future cooperation what the free will , will doe in particular . this conclusion is held of all those divines who maintaine that god by his motion or effectuall grace , not only morally , but efficiently and physically doth cause us to worke that which is good , & it is proved , saith he by all those reasons whereby it hath been formery shewed that god by his decree & effectuall motion doth predetermine all second causes , even such as are free , to worke , preserving their liberty and nature . the dominion of her act is not first in the power of free will created , but in the power and dominion of god , especially in respect of acts supernaturall our meaning is that all dominion & actuall use of dominion which the created will hath as causa proxima the next cause , or doth exercise over her free acts which she produceth , proceedeth from god , as from the cheifest & first cause efficient , & ought to be resolved into him as into the first authour & first absolute lord thereof and the truth is the question of free will , is commonly confounded though there is place of momentous distincion . for as for free will unto good that is merely morall , and the resolution thereof , is according to the resolution in the point of originall sinne . but free will unto actions in generall under an appearance of good , this is naturall liberty ; and the resolution thereof depends upon a right understanding of god's naturall providence in governing the world , and working with all creatures in their severall kinds , such operations as are agreable to their severall conditiōs . the first liberty consists in disposing man aright towards his end ; like as morall vertues tend to this . but the second liberty consist's only in the right use of the meanes , unto what end soever is projected by us . the appearance of good moving herein is only , in genere boni conducentis , in the kind of good conducing to the end propounded ; whether that end can be good or evill , right or wrong . but the appearence of good moving in the former is only , summiboni , of our cheifest good , the enjoying whereof will make us happy . but to returne , this authour with whom i deale in present , stands for the will of man's absolute dominion over her acts ; as before he did expresse ; whereas alvarez professeth utterly against this , neither doe i blame him for contradicting alvarez in this ; but for carrying himselfe like a positive theologue , nor so only , but like a peremptory theologue contenting himselfe to dictate rules to others without all proofe , save this that otherwise we make god the authour of sinne . yet this is not any expresse argument of his neither ; but he obtrudes premise , upon us , which i thinke was never affirmed by any divines of these dayes , unlesse it be by some libertines , against whom none that i know have disputed more effectually then some of those very divines which here are traduced by him . but observe the vile and abominable issue of this authours doctrine in this particular , making man as he is a free creature to be the lord of his own free act ; yea and to have the absolute dominion thereof , as formerly he did expesse sect : . for seing the act of faith , of repentance , and the like are free acts ; if liberty cannot be maintained unlesse a man hath the absolute dominion of his own act , hence it manifestly followeth , that god doth not determine the will to believe , to repent , or to any good work , yet the scripture professeth that god is he , who makes us perfect unto every good worke , working in us that which is pleasing in his sight through iesus christ . that it is god who worketh in us both the will and the deed according to his good pleasure . so that if a man should live methusalch his age , and spend that whole time in a gracious conversation ; yet that god doth worke in him either the will or the deed of one gracious act more , it is merely of his good pleasure ; so little cause have we to presume of perseverance in that which is good by out own strength . and againe all this god workes in us for christ his sake . christ hath deserved even this at the hands of god his father . what then is the meaning of this , that god should cooperate with us to the will and the deed , provided that we will ? consider the absurdity of this ( upon the supposall of the possibility of such a cooperation , which yet by evident reason may be demonstrated to be utterly impossible . ) did christ merit any thing for the angells ? yet doth he not cooperate with them to every act of theirs as well as to any of ours ? nay is it possible that any act should exist without god's operation ? and is it reasonable to subject such a course of divine providence to the merits of christ ? thus we see whereunto this authour tends in this discourse of his , namely so to maintaine god to be no authour of sinne , as withall to maintaine that he is no authour of that which is good , no not of faith , repentance , or any gracious act that is freely performed by any creature man or angell : we on the other side desire & endeavour so to carry our selves that while we vindicate god from being the authour of evill , we may not therewithall deny him to be the authour of any thing , that is good and gracious ; which is this authours course , as appeares manifestly in the issue . and observe his crafty cariage foxe like ; had he dealt upon predestination , and the efficacy of grace , and therein professed plainly that faith and repentance being free acts , every man's will hath an absolute dominion over them ; and therefore god doth not determine the will thereunto : for that were to make god the authour of faith and repentance ; how many thousands would have been ready to have flowen in his face , and abhorre such abominable doctrine . therefore he baulks that , and deales only upon reprobation ; and here he layeth to our charge that we make god the authour of sinne , by necessitating and determining the will to sinne ( though his premises herein i have shewen to be most false ) therefore he maintains that god doth not determine the will so much as to the act whereunto the sinfulnesse accrewes ; both because man's will is free ; and because so he should be the authour of sinne . and if once he can make his reader to swallow this , he doubts not but to take him in the point of predestination and grace also ; and make him wary to take heed of maintaining that god determines or necessitates the will of man to any good act whether it be of faith or of repentance , and that for feare of denying man to have the absolute dominion over his will , to worke himselfe to faith and repentance at his pleasure : and secondly , for feare of makeing god the authour of faith and repentance and every good act ; like as by saying that god doth determine or necessitate the will to sinne , we make him the authour of sinne . behold reader the issue of this man's divinity ; and whether he be not leading thee into the very chambers of death , by working thee with him to oppose the free grace of god , both in predestination and in regeneration , and the power and efficacy therereof in working thee to faith , to repentance , and to every thing that is pleasing and acceptable unto him , & that through jesus christ . yet we have shewed a manifest difference between god's moving the creature unto that which is good , and moving the creature unto such acts as are evill . for in evill be moves only to the substance of the act , whereof our adversaries themselves acknowledge god to be the authour , that is the efficient cause , and this he performes by influence generall . but as touching every good act , the lord moveth not only to the substance of the act by influence generall , but also to the goodnes thereof by influence speciall . he proceeds to tell us what philosophers teach concerning the condition of the will. and because it is very absurd for a christian to goe to schoole to philosophers to learne the condition of divine providence ; he tels us of fathers too that maintaine the same as he saith , but he quotes neither the one , nor the other . now i would gladly know what father hath ever taught that god hath no power over the will of man to convert it , and ex nolentibus volentes facere , of unwilling , to make men willing , to worke men to faith , to repentance , to all kind of pious obedience . and as for god's secret providence in evill , how plentifull is the scripture concerning this ? god is said to have sent ioseph into egypt , though this was brought to passe by the parricidiall hands of his brethren ; to tell david , that the sword should not depart from his house , though this could not be taken up or used , but by the free will of men ; to send senacherib against a dissembling nation ; and to professe that this proud king in all his bloudy executions upon the people of god , was but as the axe , or the sawe in the hand of god. the like is testified concerning nabuchodonosor after him . nay the prophet demands , whether there be any evill in the citty and the lord hath not done it ; speaking of the evill of punishment , though wickedly executed by the hands of wicked men ; that the lord caused the king of assur to fall by the sword in his own land , though this was done by the hands of his own children . and as in violent courses , so in impure courses the scripture as plainly testifies the secret providence of god to have place therein . and what doth austin observe from the like places both in his fift book against iulian the pelag : c : , and in his book de gratia & libero arbitrio , professing , occulto dei judicio fieri perversitatem cordis , that the perversity of the heart , or will , comes to passe by the secret judgment of god ; and the power that god hath over the wills of men to incline them even to evill ; that is his phrase as i have formerly shewed , abundantly representing the places where he delivers this . he proceeds not so much in scholasticall discourse , as in rhetoricall amplification , more like a shrew vexing him selfe and fretting that he cannot have his will , then like a disputer . that which necessitates the will makes it become but a servile instrument , irresistably subject to superiour command and determination ; this action of command comes in most unseasonably , it denoting a morall action , commanding not only things agreable , but sometimes contrary to the will of the person commanded . no such thing hath place in god's moving of the will of man ( did he move it unto sinne which yet is most false ; for he moves it only to the substance of the act . ) but why should it seeme strange that the creature should be a servant to the creator , and his instrument , and a servile instrument . yet the notion of servility is very aliene from the matter in hand , that having place only in proper speech as touching morall obedience ; that which we treat of , is rather of motions naturall , and of the subordination of the second cause to the first , the second agent to the first . and was ever any sober man known to oppose this with such froth of words as this authour doth ? doth this authour himselfe thinke it possible that the creature can move it selfe , or performe any operation without god's concourse ? i doe not think he doth . doe we not live in god , have we not our being in god ? and what is this other then to say that our life and being depend on god , in the kind of a cause efficient ? and doth not the same apostle , and in the same place testifie , and that in the words of an heathen man ( to shew that all such did not so maintaine the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 condition of the will , as to maintaine the exemption of it from influence divine ) professe that in god we move also ? and the truth is all the question is about the manner of this concourse divine ; whereabouts this authour spends not a word , as if he kept his breath for some other purpose then to deale on that point , which alone is controverted . the irresistable subjection he speaks of is no more then the bereaving of the will of her liberty , which is most untrue for proof whereof i appeale to every man that will but look upon alvarez , that maintaines this divine motion of will under the notion of determining ; and upon bradwardine , who alone , that i know maintaines the same divine motion under the notion of necessitating : whereas he infers herehence that god is a truer cause of all such acts and sins that proceed from the will so determined , then the will is . oftentimes he hath set before us such coleworts ; but we have nothing but his bare word for it . and it depends merely upon this that the action of the creature is not free . whereas both bradwardin maintaines that god necessitates the creature to every free act of his ; and alvarez , that god determines the creature to worke freely . now is it a sober course hence to inferre , that the act is not free ? as much as to say it cannot but be free , therfore it is not free . and yet we know that every one naturally is prone to sinne , and in the best of god's children there is a principle that inclines to sinne . god is confessed by our very opposites to be the true cause of the act ; yet not at all the cause of the sin by his concourse . only they differ from us as touching the nature of this concourse ; we say god concurres to the producing of the act as it becomes not an agent only , but the first agent ; not a cause only , but the first cause ; and man as a second agent , and second cause that moveth in god as the apostle testifies ; like as he lives in god , and hath his being in god. but these men devise god , and man to move to the producing of the same act , as two men in lifting a timber logge , most indecently : and to free this concurrence from chance , they say sometimes that god workes this or that act in us modo velimus , that is , upon condition that we will but when they consider that god workes the act of willing , as well as ought else ; & are demanded to answer upon what condition he workes this what condition will they devise of this ? will he say ; modo velimus , provided that we will ? as much as to say , god will produce the act of willing , provided that it be produced already by us . others say that god foreseeing that the will of man , at such a time will produce such an act of willing in case god be pleased to concurre to the producing of it , hereupon he resolves to concurre to the producing of it , whereby the finall resolution is rather into the will of god , then into the will of the creature , i say the finall resolution of every sinfull act committed by the creature . secondly here is devised a thing future without all ground . for whereas the act of willing ( as for example in iudas , the act of willing to betray his master , is it in ' its own nature merely possible not future how then did it passe into the condition of a thing future and that from everlasting ( for from everlasting god knew it as a thing future ) this could not be done without a cause ? and what cause could there be of an eternall effect , but an eternall cause which is god alone : and in god nothing can be devised to be the cause thereof , but his will or decree . therefore to avoid this they must be driven to conclude that all future things became future by necessitie of nature ; if not of their own nature ; yet at least by the necessitie of god's nature , he producing them all not freely , but by necessitie of nature this is that atheisticall necessitie whereupon our adversaries are cast , while they oppose such a necessitie as depends upon god's decree ordaining all things to come to passe agreably to their natures , necessary things necessarily , contingent things contingently and accordingly ordaining necessary causes working necessarily , for the producing of the one ; and contingent causes working contingently , for the producing of the other ; as aquinas discourseth . . pag q. , in the article whose title is this , utrum divina voluntas necessitatem rebus imponat , whether the will of god imposeth a necessitie on things that come to passe in the world ? the reason this authour brings is a mere socysme , saying the same over and over againe ; as when he saith , for when two causes concurre to the producing of an effect ; the one principall overruling cause , the other but an instrumentall & wholly at the devotion of the principall , then is the effect in all reason to be imputed to the principall , which by the force of ' its influxe and impression produceth it , rather then to the subordinate and instrumentall , which is but a mere servant in the production of it . to which i answer , that which he calls overruling , i have often shewed how absurdly it is imputed unto us . for how can that be called overruling which workes not the will contrary to ' its nature , but moves it only agreably to the nature thereof . as for the cause principall , what scholar of any braines ever denyed god to be the cause principall in any action to the producing whereof he concurres ? for is he not the first cause and the first agent ? are not all other second causes and second agents ? but this authour hopes his reader will understand this in reference only to the sinne , not to the naturall act under it , whereas god as touching the sinfullnesse of it is no agent at all , much lesse a prime agent ; no cause at all , much lesse a prime cause . then secondly let god never so effectually work any creature to the producing of an act connaturall thereunto , yet if he works the creature therunto agreably to its nature , that is if it be an necessary agent , moues it to worke necessarily , if it be a contingent agent , moves it to worke contingently ; if it be a free agent , moves it to worke freely ; then by arminius his confesion our cause is gained . for god shall be found free from blame , and the creature void of excuse . now this is clearly our doctrine , and in effect the doctrine of all them , who say that god determines the will , as the dominicans ; or that god necessitates the will , as bradwardine . for they all acknowledge hereby that god moves the creature to worke freely , in such sort that in the very act of working they might doe otherwise if they would . they confesse this providence of god is a great mystery and not sufficiently comprehensible by humane reason . cajetan professeth thus much as before alleadged , and alvarez maintaines it in a set disputation ; and supposing god's concourse as necessarily required to every act of the creature , they are able to prove by evident demonstration , that no other concourse can be admitted , then this whereby god moves every creature and that effectually to every act thereof , but agreably to ' its nature and condition . and this is farther demonstrated by god's fore knowledge , of things future . another arminian with whom i have had to deale in this argument , being pressed with this reason drawen from god's foreknowledge and urged to shew how things possible became future & that from everlasting ( for from everlasting they were known to god as future ) had no way to helpe selfe but by flying to the actuall existence of all things in eternity . and i have good ground for strong presumption that this authour with whom now i deale had his hand in that pye , which was above foure yeares agoe . see the desperate issue of these mens discourses ; who are drawen to take hold of such a tenet to helpe themselves withall ; which their best freinds the jesuites , the authours of scientia media , doe utterly disclaime . and on the other side the dominicans who embrace the actuall existence of all things in eternity , are utterly repugnant to the doctrine of scientia media . so that when the jesuites are reconciled to the dominicans in the point of actuall existence of all things in eternity ; and the dominicans to the jesuites in the point of scientia media , then these men with whom i deale are like to prevaile , which i doubt will hardly be before elias comes . thirdly consider , if when one cause is principall , overruling the other , the effect must be imputed rather to the principall then to the other . it followes evidently that when the causes doe equally concurre without any such overruling of one the other , then the effect is equally imputable unto each , & consequently the sin ( for such is this authour's language in this argument ) is equally imputable to both , to god as well as man ; and he is to be accounted the author of it , as well as man. i appeale to every man's sober conscience that is able to judge indifferently between us in this . but if to avoid this they deny that the concurrence is equall , but that god's concurrence is conditionall , to wit , in case the creature will , and so man is to be accounted the authour of sinne , and not god , hence it followeth , that seeing god's concurrence unto the act of faith and repentance is of the same nature in the opinion of these men ; god is not the authour of faith and repentance any more , then he is the authour of sinne , in the language of these disputers . or if they fly not to this , as i have found this authour ( as i guesse ) to deny god's concourse to stand in subordination to man's , then my former argument is not avoided ; but a third reason ariseth herehence against his former discourse of god's concourse , namely , that if god and man doe equally concurre unto the act of sinne , then , as i have already shewed , that they are equally guilty of sin . so in the working of faith and repentance man is as forward as god and as much the authour of his own fatih and repentance as god is , in direct contradiction to the apostle who saith that , faithis the guift of god & not of our selves . we willingly grant that god is the principall agent in producing every act , whether it be naturall or supernaturall for in him we move as well as in him we live & have our being but we deny sin , as sin , to be any act but a privation of obedience to the law of god , as the apostle defines it to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet let us examine that which he delivers of the principall agent , & the texts produced by him , that we may not be carried away as he is with a superficiary apprehension of things . and first consider ) we might plead as well for such acts as this authour calls sins , as he doth for acts gracious by his superficiary discourse . for doth not ioseph comforting his brethren say unto them in like manner . now then you sent me not hither , but god. but consider farther in that passage alleadged by him out of mat : . . it is not ye that speak but the spirit of my father which speaketh in you . was not this speech of the apostles a free action ? the labour of paul more abundantly then of all the rest of the apostles , was it not a free action in paul ? ●f god determined thē unto these actions , then freedome of will humane stands not in opposition to determination divine ; and consequently though the act be evill that is , done by man ; yet may god determine the creature to the doing of that act , without any impeachment of the creatures liberty . if god did not determine the wills of his servants but only afford a simultaneous concourse to their actions , why is he called the cause principall , since it is confessed , god doth afford the like concourse to every sinfull act , as touching the substance thereof . againe he repeates the same , when in case of divine determination , he saith , the sinne cannot be so rightly ascribed to man's will the inferiour , as to god's necessitating decree , the superiour cause . to which i answer againe , being drawen thereunto by his tautologies ; by the same reason it may be inferred , that when the fire burnes any combustible thing , the burning is rather to be ascribed to god the more principall cause , then to the fire the lesse principall , the first cause being more principall then the second and if it please god so to order it , the fire shall not burne as it appeares in the three noble children cast into the furnace of babylon , when they came forth there was not so much as the smell of fire upon them . secondly i answer as before , by the same reason , when the concourse unto the sinfull act is equall on man's part , & on god's , each shall equally be accounted the authour of that sinne , and not man more then god ; now such a concourse is maintained by this authour . thirdly in the working of faith and repentance ; since by these mens opinions god affords only his concourse he shall be no more the authour of man's faith and repentance then man himselfe is . lastly be it granted that god is a more principall cause then mā in producing the act ; yet there is no colour of imputing unto god the causality of the sin , who hath no agency therein , by doing what he ought not to doe , or not in that manner he should doe , this is found only in the creature , who being a free agent , otherwise then as originall sinne hath impaired liberty , which i hope this authour will not deny , is justly answerable for his own transgression . as for example , god determined that cyrus should give the jewes liberty to returne into their own land ; yet this action of cyrus was as free an action , as any that was performed by him throughout his life . god determined that josiah should burne the prophets bones upon the altar at bethel , yet iosiah did this as freely as ought else : god determined that christ's bones should not be broken , yet the souldiours abstained from the breaking of his bones with as much liberty as they had used , in case they had broken them . this divine providence we willingly confesse is very mysterious , and as cajetan saith the distinctions used to accommodate it to our capacitie doe not quiet the understanding ; therefore he thought it his duty to captivate his into the obedience of faith . and alvarez in a solemne disputation proves that it is incomprehensible by the wit of man. . his last is delivered most perplexedly . i can make no sense of it as the words lie , but i see his meaning . he supposeth that god by our tenet makes a man to sin willingly , & that he saith is worse then to constraine a man to sinne against his will. where observe how this man's spirit is intoxicated when he delivered this . for first he calls that worse which is merely impossible , and that by his own rules . for he holds that sinne cannot be , except it be voluntary , speaking of sinne committed by any particular person . secondly he supposeth that by our opinion god makes a man to sinne , which is most untrue . for when he acknowledgeth that no sin can be committed by man without god's concourse ; will he say that god by his concourse helps a man to sinne ? he helps him to the producing of the act , not to the committing of the sinne . and indeed be the act never so vertuous , if it proceed not out of the love and feare of god , it is no better then such as the heathens performed ; of which austin hath professed that they were no better then splendida peccata glorious sins : so that if god doth not give a man these graces of his holy spirit in every act that is performed by him he shall sinne , and not only in acts vitious ; and god is not bound to bestow these graces on any . section . sinne may be considered as sinne , or as a meanes of declaring god's justice in mens punishments . god doth not predestiminate men to sinne , as it is sinne , but as a meanes of their punishment . he is not therefore , say they , the authour of sinne . . a good end cannot moralize a bad action ; it remaineth evill though the end be never so good bonum oritur ex integris . ●end , manner , yea matter too must be good , or else the action is naught . he that shall steale that he may give an almes ; or commit adultery , that he may beget children for the church ; or oppresse the poore to teach them patience , or kill a wicked man that he may doe no more hurt with his example ; or doe any forbidden thing , though his end be never so good , he sinneth notwithstanding . and the reason is because the evill of sinne is greater then any good that can come by sinne ; forasmuch as it is laesio divinae majestatis , a wronging of god's majesty ; and to divino bono opposita , directly prejudiciall to the good of almighty god as much as any thing can be . this saint paul knew very well , and therefore he tells us plainely that we must not doe evill that good may come thereof . whosoever therefore willeth sin , though for never so good an end , he willeth that which is truly and formally a sinne , and consequently god , though he will sinne for never so good ends , yet willing it with such a powerfull , and effectuall will , as giveth a necessary being to it , he becommeth authour of that which is formally sinne . . the members of this distinction are not opposite , for sinne as sinne , and in no other consideration is meanes of punishment . if god therefore willeth it as a meanes of punishment , he willeth it as a sinne ; his decree it determinated at the the very formality of it . this distinction fastneth upon god a further aspersion , and loadeth him with three speciall indignities more . . want of wisedome and providence . his counsells must needs be weak if he can find out no meanes to glorifie justice , but by the bringing in of sinne , which his soule hateth , into the world and appointing men to commit it , that so he may maaifest justice in the punishment of it . . want of sincerity and plaine dealing with men . tiberius as suetonius reports , having a purpose to put the two sonnes of germanicus , drusius and nero , to death used sundry cunning contrivances to draw them to revile him , that reviling him they might be put to death ; and herein is justly censured for great hypocrisie . and so if god having appointed men by his absolute will to inevitable perdition , doe decree that they shall sinne that so they may be damned for those sins , which he decreeth , and draweth them into ; he dissembleth , because he slaughtereth them under pretext of justice for sinne , but yet for such sins only as he hath by his eternall counsell appointed as the meanes of their ruine . . want of mercy in an high degree , as if he did so delight in bloud , that rather then he will not destroy mens soules , he will have them live and dye in sinne , that he may destroy them , like to those pagan princes of whom justin martyr apol : , two or three leaves from the beginning saith , they are afraid that all should be just least they should have none to punish . but this is the disposition of hang-men rather then of good princes : and therefore farre be those foule enormities , and in particular this latter from the god of truth and father of mercies . and thus notwithstanding these distinctions , it is in my conceit most evident that the rigid and upper way makes god the authour of mens sins , as well as punishment . and so much for the first generall inconvenience , which ariseth from this opinion , namely the dishonour of god. i willingly professe i am to seeke what that divine of ours is that saith god doth predestinate men to sinne , as a meanes of their punishment . here this authour is silent , names no man , quotes no place ; like as in the former he carried himselfe in this manner . the ancients generally take predestination in no other notion , then to be of such things which god himselfe did purpose to bring to passe by his own operation , not of such things as come to passe by god's permission , neither can i call to remembrance any divine of ours that talkes of god's predestinating men unto sinne . but the scripture affords plentifull testimony of god's will , ordination , and determination , that the sins of men come to passe by god's permission . was it not god's will that pharaoh's heart should be hardened , so as not to let israel goe for a while , when he told moses that he would harden pharaoh's heart that he should not let israel goe ? was it not god's appointment that absolom should lye with his fathers concubines , when he denounced this judgment against him , that he would give his wives unto his neighbour , who should lye with them before the sun ? was it not his will that the ten tribes should revolt from rehoboam , when he protested of that businesse , that it was from him ? was it not god's will that the jews and gentiles should concurre in crucifying christ when the apostles professe , that both herod & pontius-pilate , with the gentiles , and people of israel were gathered together to doe what god's hand and counsell had before determined to be done ? doth not saint peter professe of some that stūbled at the word being disobedient , that hereunto they were ordained ? and that the ten kings in giving their kingdomes to the beast did fullfill the will of god , as touching this particular ? but that god should will or ordaine it as a meanes of punishment , as if the end which god aimed at , were the punishment , is so absurd and contradictious unto scripture , that in my opinion it cannot well enter into any judicious divines heart so to conceive . and marke how this authour shuffles herein : for first he saith that sin may be considered either as sinne ; or as a meanes of declaring god's justice in punishing it . and why doth he not keep himselfe unto this ? especially considering , that not permission of sin only , but the punishment of sin also are jointly the meanes of declaring god's justice . and where king solomon professeth that god made the very wicked against the day of evill , in the same place he manifesteth what is the end of this ; namely in saying that he made all things for himselfe , that is for the manifestation of his own glory . and this glory is not only in the way of justice ; but in the way of mercy also ; which this authour as his manner is , very judiciously conceales ; this attribute of mercy lying not so open to this authours evasion as that of justice . and is it possible god's mercy and the demonstration thereof should have place where there is no sin ? considering that no other evill , or misery , had entred into the world , had it not been for sin , according to that of the apostle , by one man sin entred into the world , & death by sin . neither are these generalls the only end that god aimed at in this , but many other particulars there are , whereby the glory of god's wisedome and power , and grace doth appeare , by occasion of sins entrance into the world . the horrible facts of jewes and gentiles cōmitted upon the person of the son of god , were such as whereby the lord brought to passe the redemption of the world . if christ had not been crucified what satisfaction had been made for the sins of the world ? how could he have been set forth as a propitiation for our sins through faith in his blood ? & yet this is not all the glory of god that breaks forth by the permission of sin . the punishment of one sin by another is an admirable worke of god's providence , and that more waies then one . for god can punish , and doth , one man by the sin of an other . the assyrians and babylonians committed outrages enough upon the people of god , yet hereby the lord was just in punishing the sins of his own people , senacherib blasphemed the god of israel , the creature his creator , most unnaturally , this unnaturallnes of his towards god , the lord avenged by the unnaturalnesse of his own children towards him : this was the worke of the lord , as himselfe acknowledgeth . i will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land . man seeketh the face of the ruler , but every man's judgment is of the lord. many unjust judgments have their course in the world , yet solomon saith , every man's judgment is from the lord. it is just with him to punish unjust courses with unjust courses , and there is mercy in this ; for no better way then this to bring mens former wicked courses to their remembrance . as adonibezek when the thumbs of his hands , and great toes of his feet were cut off , then he remembred his former cruelty ; and how that kings had eaten bread under his table , having the thumbes of their hands and feet cut off ; and herein he acknowledged the just hand of god saying . as i have done to others so hath god done to me . and as many as will not in like manner acknowledge the just hand of god in like cases , let them take heed lest adonibezek one day rise up in judgment against them . thus it is just with god by one sin of the same man to punish another . for because the gentiles knowing god , glorified him not as god , but were unthankfull , turning the glory of the incorruptible god into the image of corruptible things , therefore the lord gave them up unto a reprobate mind , to doe those things which are not convenient . therefore god gave thē up to vile affections . therefore god gave them up to their hearts lusts , unto uncleanes to defile their own bodies between thēselves . and what were these inconvenient things ? what was this uncleanes ? wherein consisted this , defiling of their bodies between themselves ? the text expresseth it thus . for even their womē changed the naturall use into that which is against nature . and likewise also the mē left the naturall use of the women , & burned in their lust one towards another , & mā with man wrought filthines . but was there any judgment of god to be observed in this ? the apostle hath discovered this also unto us in the words immediately following thus , and they received in thēselves such recōpence of their errour as was meet ; observe manifestly the just hand of god in all this . as for the manner how god brought all this to passe , we answer with austin , whether it be modo explicabili , or inexplicabili , by a way that may be explicated by us , or whether it be inexplicabile , the apostle troubleth not himselfe hereabout , his care was only to shew how great a judgmēt this was : & this is prosecuted farther by austin in the same place , shewing by variety of particulars , all taken out of the word of god ; in the place formerly quoted . neither is this all the glory of god that cōes to be manifested by the permission of sin . for he knows not only how to judge one sin by another , but to heale one sin by another also . audeo dicere , saith austin , utile est superbis in aliquod apertum manifestumque cadere peccatum , that so they may be humbled and brought to sobriety , and passe the time of sojourning here with greater care and feare . now consider in how hungry a manner this authour sets downe our tenet concerning god's providence in willing , and decreeing , that sin shall come to passe in the world by his permission ; whē he talkes of sin being a meanes of punishment , a most absurd expression , both in a sinister stating of the end , punishment not being the end , but a meanes coordinate to an other end , to wit , the manifestation of god's glory , who hath made all things for himselfe , that is for the setting forth of his own glory ; as also in a sinister stating the end , sin being not a meanes ( as most absurdly he stiles it ) but a meritorious cause of punishment : like as in reference to the manifestation of his glory , it is not the meanes , but the materiall cause thereof , but the permission of sins , that and not sin is the meanes together with the punishment thereof , tending to the manifestatiō of god's glory in the way of justice ? . a good end cannot moralize a bad actiō . we grant it . but seeing it is impossible that the divine hand can doe any bad action , the end of his actions is sufficient to justifie his courses . for as aquinas hath delivered ; god's wisedome is his justice . for he is a debtor to none but to himselfe ; and how to himselfe ? not otherwise then in all things which he doth , to carry himselfe so as it becōmeth himselfe ; that is to order every thing to a right end , which is only the manifestation of his own glory . for himselfe is most lovely ; and 't is his nature to be most loving of that which is most lovely . now to order all things aright to their congruous ends , is the part of wisdome . and see how extravagant this authour is in evey one of his instances . for to steale , to commit adultery , to oppresse , to kill , is to sinne , and in willing any of these , a man wills his own sinne . but the argument we treat of , is of god's willing the sins of others ; as when god's hand and his counsell determined that those things should be done , which by herod , pontius-pilate , the gentiles , and people of israel were committed against the holy son of god ; and when the kings gave their kingdomes to the beast herein they are said to doe the will of god and when every mans judgment is said to come frō the lord ; not only judgmēt just , but even judgments unjust to wit , of men , yet god hath a just hand in plaguing others by thē ; man ought not to doe evill that good may come thereof ; but god's willing it to come to passe by his permission is no evill at all ; nay it is good ; nor so only , but the thing willed by him is good by the confession of bellarmine , even then when he is opposing us in this very argument ; malum fieri deo permittente bonum est , it is good that evill should come to passe by god's permission : and it was avouched by austin many hundred yeares before bellarmine was borne . and he professeth that god would never have suffered sinne to have entered into the world , had he not knowne that it appertained to his almighty goodnesse , rather to work good out of evill , then not at all to suffer evill . compare the judgment of austin with the judgment of this authour , and consider whether they differ not as much as light and darknesse . and what wisedome were it for god to permit sinne ( when it is in his power to hinder it , as this authour acknowledgeth in the sixt section ) if it be a greater evill . ( and that to god , as it appeares by his expression of it , laesio divinae majestatis , the hurt of the divine majesty ) then the good that can come thereby can be ? so that the crucifying of christ was greater in the kind of evil , then the redemption of the world that came thereby , was in the kind of good . no man of common discretion will permit ought ( if it lye in his power to hinder it ) to his own disadvantage , unlesse he can make thereby , not only an equall advantage , but a greater . but let us farther consider the superficiary speculation of this divine , more becomming children in the church of god then a grave and learned divine . sinne , he saith , is laesio divinae majestatis , the wronging of the divine majesty ; but in what sense i pray ? is god any thing the worse for any man's disobedience , and transgression of god's law ? surely like as he is no way advantaged by our obedience , so is he as little disadvantaged by our disobedience . yet i affect not to carry that i deliver by the authority of mine own bare word , which is this authours course most usually ; i represent scripture for it . if thou sinnest , what doest thou against him ; yea when thy sins are many , what doest thou unto him ? if thou be righteous what givest thou him , or what receiveth he at thy hands ? thy wickednesse may hurt a man as thou art , and thy rightousnesse may profit a son of man. and in reason , looke of what nature the benefit is that redounds from the creature unto god , of the like nature is the detrement . now god by making the world acquires no internall perfectiō unto himselfe , but only makes his glorious nature known , and accordingly if the world should have an end , this manifestation should cease ; but his glorious nature should still continue the same . and as he manifests his glory by the world , so some creatures he hath made intelligent , fit to take notice of his glory , and accordingly requires at their hands they should acknowledge it , and that not in word only , but by their dutifull obedience ; and that for the farther manifestation of his glory , to their good and wonderfull happinesse , if they obey ; and their extream sorrow and misery , if they continue rebellious against him . so that whereas the end of all god's actions being but the manifestatiō of his glory , he doth not loose so much as this , by the sins of men ; for he can glorifie himselfe in their just destruction ; nay he can manifest his glory another way ; namely both the glory of his mercy in pardoning their contempt of his majesty done unto him ; which men so proud many times they are , can hardly doe ; but in such a case prove implacable . likewise of his grace in curing it , as also his power and wisedome in procuring a strange satisfaction to be made for it in a wonderfull manner , and that by his own blood ; that so way may be made for the manifestation of his , not royall only , but divine magnificence in bestowing the kingdome of heaven upon them . so farre is he from being any way hurt by the sins of men in any true reall account . and accordingly as he permits sins dayly ; so he offers his free grace dayly for the pardon of them ; and to this tended the dayly sacrifice among the jewes , of a lamb every morning and a lambe every evening . but why then is sinne , said to be laesio divinae majestatis ? i answer this is to be understood not of any hurt done to his majesty in it selfe , but as in the minds of men , who hereby manifest their contempt of the divine majesty . and they that doe contemne him would put him out of his throne if they could , & wish that there were no god ; & the foole would faine bring his heart about to thinke so . but though earthly kings may be dethroned & sometimes have been , yet he that sitteth in heaven laughs all them to scorne that rise up against him . and bids the potsheard strive with his follow potsheards , not with his maker . who will set the thornes & briars against me in battells i would goe through them & burne them together . for god is a consuming fire . it is true we must neither do evill that good may cōe thereof ; nor permit it neither , if itlye in our power to hinder it . god neither will doe any iniquity nor cā doe , but yet is lawfull for him to permit evill that good may come thereof . yea & will , or decree that evill shall come to passe by his permission , as i have proved at large in a digression to this purpose & therewithall discovered the sophisticall arguments of aquinas , & durandus , to the contrary , not to speak of valentianus ; not one part of all which large digressiō do i find āswered by this author . i have often alleadged pregnant passages of scripture to this purpose & ; arminius confesseth expresly that god would have ahab to fill up the measure of his sin ; which could not be done but by adding sin unto sin ; yet this is made the object of god's by arminius . this will of god to have sinne come to passe by his permission , is effectuall . for whensoever god permits it , it comes to passe , as both arminius and vorstius acknowledge , not piscator only : and amongst papists navarettus & alvarez as before i have shewed ; yet god hath no efficiencie in the sinne , but only in the act whereunto sinfulnesse adheres ; and the saying of austin is well knowne . non aliquid fit , nisi omnipotens fieri velit ; not any thing comes to passe , but that which god will have come to passe . and the eleaventh article of ireland is most expresse for this . i am driven to repeat the same things often ; this authours frequent tautologies urge me thereunto . . though the members be not opposite it matters not ; it is sufficient they are disparate ; the purpose of it being to shew , not that god doth not will sin , but only to shew under what notion he willeth it . yet it is false and absurd to say that sinne is a meanes of punishment . for to him it belongs to worke the meanes , who intends the end , but sinne , as sinne , is no worke of god ; but the permission of it is his worke , and his meanes , not to this end that he may punish it , but he doth both permit it and punish it for the manifestation of his glory in the way of justice , like as he doth also permit sinne in others , not to pardon it ; but he both permits sinne , and pardons it to manifest his glory in the way of mercy . . i come to the consideration of the speciall indignities wherewith god is loaded by this our doctrine as this authour pretendeth . . and indeed is god's wisedome and providence so strong , as that he is able to find meanes to glorifie his justice without the permitting of sinne ? ( for god hath no other hand in sinne as sinne , but of permission ; to the substance of the act he cooperates as a cause efficient , as all confesse . ) for of what justice doe we treat in this argument ? is it of justice remunerative , or justice vindicative ? was it ever heard that permission of sinne was required to make way for god's justice remunerative ? or is it possible that way can be made for the manifestation of gods justice vindicative ( in scripture called god's wrath ) unlesse sinne be permitted to enter ? for though he hates it ; yet this authour confesseth that god permits it , as without whose permission it could not enter into the world . sect : . in the last place this authour helps himselfe with a phrase of god's appointing men to commit it , which he obtrudes upon us thinking to make the ballance on his part the heavier , not considering that words are but wind . we say the horrible outrages committed upon our saviour , god foredetermined to be done ; and told david that he would give his wives unto his neighbour , who should lye with them before the sun ; and that it was his will that the kings should give their kingdome to the beast ; this we deliver according to god's word ; whereas all this our opposit's discourse is quite besides the word of god ; as if he would have us take his absurd conceits in steed of oracles . and doth he not know that austin sometimes sayd that , iudas electus est ad prodendum sanguinem domini , iudas was chosen to betray his master ? or will he answer that he was the first that said so ? . to the second i have already answered , and that at large in my answer to m. hoord , in the preface and second section . there i have shewed how that it was merely devislish policy in tiberius to move him to take this course , to make way for a grand child of his own , to bring him to the imperiall throne , this moved him to seeke the death of germanicus his two sons , whom augustus made him to adopt as successours in the empire , & lest the putting of them to death without cause might provoke the people to mutiny against him ; therfore by cunning contrivances he caused them to be provoked to revile him , that so he might have some cause to justifie his destroying of them ; which yet he did not by any publique execution ; he was loath to come to that for feare of raising some tumult thereby ; fame necavit , he famished them . now how hath satan possessed the heart of this unhappy divine thus to blaspheme the holy one of israell by comparing his waies to these abominable courses of tiberius , not fearing lest his tongue rot in his head while he is uttering of them ? cannot god take the life of any man from him , be he never so innocent , and that what way he will , even by punishment , if it please him ? for is it not of god's mere mercy that he promiseth , not to famish the soule of the rightous ? as for provoking courses , is it not apparent by these our opposites confession , that to all the provoking courses in the world god doth concurre , and that as an efficient cause of every action ? and accordingly he did concurre with these provoking courses used by tiberius . and did not god professe that he would provoke the israelites by a foolish people , and by a foolish nation he would anger them ? how did shimei provoke david by railing upon him ; and how did david interpret it , the lord , saith he , hath bid him to curse david ? not that he gave any such command in proper speech , but by his secret providence brought this to passe , using to this purpose the vitious disposition which he found in shimei , but caused it not . and observe what austin speakes in the like case of his mother monica exercised with the opprobrious speeches of her servant , quid egisti deus meus ? unde curasti ? unde sanasti ? nonne protulists durum & acutum ex alterâ animâ convitium tanquam medicinale ferrum ex occultis provisionibus tuis , & uno ictu putredinem illam praecidisti ? my god what diddest thou ? how diddest thou cure her ? how recover her ? diddest thou not bring forth an harsh and sharp reproch out of an others heart as a medicinall instrument in thy secret providence , and with one stroke pared away all that rottenesse ? thus adonibezek when his thumbes and great toes were cut off by his enemies , he acknowledged that god had done to him , as he had done to others . and solomon testifies that , every man's judgment commeth of the lord. if every man's judgment , then surely unjust judgments and not just only . and although they are unjust as they proceed frō man ; yet are they just as they proceed from god. like as the parricide of adramelech & sharezer committed upon their father senacherib , the lord takes unto himselfe when he saith , i will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land . yet what was david the worse for shimei's cursing ; neither would he thereby be urged to requite evill for evill upon his subjects ; the more inexcusable were the sons of germanicus for reviling their prince tiberius , though never so much provoked thereunto . neither was this fact of tiberius a fruit of hypocrisy , which is the counterfeiting of holines , justice was pretended indeed not holines & that through feare . for the wicked man is continually as one travelling with child , a sound of feare is in his eares . the cunning contrivances that tiberius used are specified by this authour , but he doth not specifie the cunning contrivances that god useth by our opinion , as he obtrudes upon us belike he was to seek of thē , yet we expresse god's providence herein by no other termes then the word of god it selfe doth suggest unto us ; namely of blinding the mind , of giving over to strong illusions , of hardning the heart , of giving over unto their hearts lusts , unto vile affections , unto a reprobate mind . to all which is required no other thing then the not curing of that naturall corruption , and habituall vitious disposition which is found in the wicked whether in the way of luxury , or in the way of uncharitablenesse , and malice ; or in the way of ambition & pride . and secondly the administration of congruous occasions unto this their corrupt disposition , which arminius himselfe confesseth to be the worke of god's providence in his theses of providence , and which in scripture phrase is stiled the leading into temptation ; against which our saviour taught his disciples to pray . thirdly the giving them over to the power of satan . and lastly god's generall concourse in moving all creatures to worke agreably to their natures , necessary things necessarily ; contingent agents contingently ; and free agents freely . but my answer to this i have prosecuted at large in more sheets then here are leaves in my answer to m. hoord . . as for want of mercy , we willingly confesse according to the tenour of god's word ( as this authour delivers himselfe without all respect thereunto ) that god shewes no mercy in hardning them . for to harden in scripture phrase is opposite to god's shewing mercy . and as he is bound to none ; so he professeth that , he will shew mercy on whom he will shew mercy , and will have compassion on whom he will have compassion . and this the apostle takes hold of in prosecuting the doctrine of election and concludeth from hence in part , & in part from god's hardening of pharaoh , that god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth , by hardning meaning such an operation , the consequence whereof is alwaies disobedience ; as appeares by the objection derived therehence in the words following ; thou wilt say then why doth he yet complaine ? ( now he complaines only of disobedience ) for who hath resisted his will ? manifestly implying that when god hardens man unto disobedience , it is his secret will that he shall disobey . like as when god hardned pharaoh that he should not let israel goe ; it was god's secret will that he should not let israel goe for a good while : secret i say in distinction from the will of command , which is alwaies made knowne to them who are commanded . but it pleased the lord to make this will of his knowne to moses , though it was kept secret from pharaoh ; yet afterwards he told pharaoh to his face by his servant moses saying . and indeed for this cause have i appointed thee to shew my power in thee , and to declare my name to all the world ; though pharaoh believed it not as appeares by that which followeth ; yet thou exaltest thy selfe against me , and lettest them not goe . but this authour together with m. hoord goeth by other rules , which his own fancy suggest's unto him , he will have god's love and mercy extended to all and every one , christ's redemption to extend to all and every one ; the covenant of grace to comprehend all and every one ; and upon these universalities he grounds his transcendent consolations ; whence it comes to passe , that abraham the father of the faithfull , was of no more comfortable condition , then the grand signior among the turkes : and the grand siginior had as good grounds of consolatiō as abraham himselfe . yet this not shewing of mercy on the vessells of wrath prepared unto destruction tends to the greater demonstration of his mercy on the vessells of mercy prepared unto glory : as the apostle testifies ro : . . and let this author tell saint paul if he thinks good , that this is the disposition of hang-men rather then of good princes . and this is the perpetuall tenour of this authour's discourse to conforme god's courses to the conditions of courses humane . man is bound to shew mercy on all ; god is not . god is free to pardon whom he will , man is not . if we permit men to sinne in case we can hinder them , we shall be guilty with them , but how innumerable are the sins committed in the world , which if god would hinder could never be committed ? as austin discourseth lib. . contra iulian : pelag : cap. in nothing did nero's cruelty shew it selfe more , then in prolonging the lives of men , that he might torment them the more . what then ? shall we taxe god for crueltie in keeping mens bodies and soules alive for ever in hell fire to torment them everlastingly without end ? see what a doore of blasphemy is opened against the just god that will doe no iniquity , by this authour 's unshamefast discourse . by this let the indifferent reader judge of this authour 's present performance , & withall take notice of that which himselfe hath dissembled all along touching his own tenet ; namely that of every sinfull act committed by the creature , god is the efficient cause , as touching the substance of the act , as for the sinfulnesse thereof we hold it impossible that god can have any agency at all therein , or any culpable deficiency ; forasmuch as he neither doth ought which he should not doe , or after what manner he should not , nor leaves undone ought which he should doe , or after what manner he should doe , all which are incident to the creature who is subject to a law ; but not at all to the creatour who gives lawes to others , but himselfe works according to the counsell of his own will in all things . the summe is , whatsoever we deliver as touching god's secret providence in evill , we have expresse scripture for us , nothing but pretence of carnall reason against us ; which when it comes to be examined , is found subject to manifest contradiction , both as touching their feigning things future without the decree of god ; and as touching their conditionall decrees , and conditionall concurrences ; ours is not in any particular ; the greatest shew of contradiction on our parts is in the point of necessitie and libertie ; now to cleare this , as others , have taken paines , so have i in my vindiciae proving divers and sundry waies , that these two doe amically conspire , to wit , the necessitie being only upon supposition ; the liberty and contingency simply so called ; only it is not to be expected that there should be no difference between the liberty of the creatures , and the liberty of god the creator ; or that the creature in her operation should be exempt from the operation of god ; the second cause exempt from the motion of the first ; whereunto this authour addresseth not the least answer . as for the difference which this authour puts between the upper way and the lower in making god the authour of sinne ; compare this with arminius his profession ; namely that the same twenty reasons which he objected against the upper way , may all of them be accommodated against the lower way , all of them admitting of the same distinctions ( which this authour invades ) to cleare god from being the authour of sinne . the second inconvenience . section . the second inconvenienceis the overthrow of true religion and good goverment among men . to this , this opinion seemeth to tend for these reasons . . because it maketh sinne to be no sinne indeed , but only in opinion . we use to say necessity hath no law ; creatures or actions in which necessity beares sway are without saw ; lyons are not forbidden to prey , birds to fly , fishes to swimme , or any bruit creatures to doe according to their kinds , because their actions are naturall and necessary ; they cannot upon any admonition doe otherwise . among creatures indued with reason and liberty , lawes are given to none , but such as can use their principles of reason and freedome : fooles , mad-men , and children are subject to no law , because they have no liberty . to men that can use their liberty , lawes are not given neither , but in those actions which are voluntary . no man is forbidden to be hungry , thirsty , weary , sleepy , to weepe , tolaugh , to love or to hate ; because these actions and affections are naturall and necessary ; the will may governe them , but it cannot suppresse them . and so , if to deale justly , to exercise charity &c. with their contraries , be absolutely , and antecedently necessary too , whether this necessity flow from a principall within , or a mover without , we are as lawlesse in these and in the other . now if necessity hath no law● , then actions in themselves evill , if under the dominion of absolute necessity are transgressions of no law and consequently no sins . for sin is a transgression of the law . this that i say hath been said long agoe . for justin martyr speaking against destiny hath these words , if it be by destiny ( that is by absolute necessity ; for that the fathers doe generally call by the name of destiny ; ) that men are good or bad , they are indeed neither good nor bad . a speech like to this he hath a little after . it would seem , if this be so , that vertue and vice are nothing , but things are judged to be good or bad by opinion only , which , as good reason teacheth , is very great injustice and impiety . and surely well might he say so . for to what purpose was the son of god made man , and being man made a sacrifice for sinne ? why was the ministry of the word and sacraments ordained ? to what end are heaven and hell propounded ? why are exhortations , disswasions , or any other meanes to hinder men from sin applied , if sin be nothing , but a mere opinion ? christ , the christian faith , the word and sacraments , and whatsoever according to the scriptures hath been done for the applying of the pardon of sinne , are all but mere fables , nay very impostures , if sinne be nothing . and by consequence it is no matter at all , whether men be christians , jewes , turkes , or pagans , of what religion , or whether of any religion at all . now whether tendeth this , but to the ovethrow of religion ? . because it taketh away the conscience of sinne . why should men be afraid of any sinne that pleaseth or may profit them , if they must needs sinne ? or what reason have they to weep and mourne when they have sinned , seeing they have not sinned truly , because they sinned necessarily ? the tragedian saith , when a man sinneth , his destiny must beare the blame . necessity freeth him from all iniquity . sins are either the faults of that irresistible decree that causeth them , or no faults at all . if either ; then sorrow , feare , or any other act of repentance whatsoever , may as well be spared as spent . this conceit being once drunke in , religion cannot long continue ; for the affections have been the strongest planters , and are the surest upholders of it in the world . primus in orbe deos fecit timot. i come to the consideration of the second inconvenience wherewith our doctrine is charged ; and that is nothing inferiour to the former ; to wit , the overthrow of true religion and good goverment among'st men . with what judgment these are termed inconvenices i am to seeke , and i wonder what mischeifes are greater then these inconveniences ; but i come to consider how well he makes good his charge . . if sinne be no sinne certainely the opinion must be erroneous that conceives it to be sin . i had thought there had been no predication more true then that which is identicall . we are taught that sinne is a trangression of god's law . that the wages of it , in the just judgment and decree of god is no lesse then death even everlasting death , both of body and soule ; that god sent his own son , and made his soule an offering for sinne ; that so he might set him forth a propitiation for our sins , through faith in his blood . but let us see this authour's reason to prove his crimimination . he begins with an axiome , that , necessity hath no law ; and hereupon he doth expatiate with his instances too too impertinently ; a course which bellarmine takes not , whom yet i have answered on this very argument in my vindiciae ; least of all doth he offer to make any reply upon any parcell of my answer unto bellarmine . now this axiome is not applied to agents unreasonable , but only reasonable , by them who treat thereof . as in case a man be driven to steale , to relieve naturall necessity ; yet all confesse that a man is not only unexecusable , but also not to be pitied , if he hath brought this necessity upon him ; and never any sober man that i know , denied stealth to be a free action , for all this . it is true lyons are not forbidden to prey , nor fishes to swimne , nor bruit creatures to doe according to their kind . for they are unreasonable , and consequently not capable of command , otherwise then by spurre , or goad , or the like ; nor capable of admonition , in like sort , children afore they come to the use of reason are not capable , of admonition as neither mad men are , nor fooles , such as we call naturall ; but this authour is none such . for then his wit would not serve him for opposition as it doth . it is true likewise , that as man is made after the image of god , not as touching his part vegetative ; nor as touching his part sensitive ; but only as touching his part reasonable , consisting of an understanding , whereby he is enabled to know his superiours , and their commands , and admonitions ; and of a will whereby he is able to performe obedience both inward and outward , it having command over all parts of the body to set them in motion ; whereupon if their lord command them to come they come , if to goe they goe , if to doe this they doe it ; as the centurion signified , to our saviour the readinesse of his servants to doe their masters commands . at length he comes to conclude that , if to deale justly , to exercise charitie &c. with their contraries be absolutely & antecedently necessary too , whether this necessity flow from a principle within or a mover without , we are as lawlesse in these as in the other , by these he meanes acts of the soule rationall ; by the other , he meanes acts of the soule vegetative , or sensitive . now we utterly deny that any of these are absolutely necessary ; nay we deny that any thing is of absolute necessity , but the being of the divine nature ; and the internall emanations thereof which constitute the distinction of persons in the trinity . for albeit some agents created are agents necessary , working necessarily ; yet the works which they bring forth are not of absolute necessity , because they may be hindred in their operations ; either by angells as some of them ; or at least by the power of god , all of them . and as there are necessary agents working necessarily ; so there are free agents working contingently and freely ; as angells and men . and albeit a question may be made as touching acts supernaturall , whether the creature hath any free power to performe them freely ; such as are the acts of the three theologicall vertues , faith , hope , and charity , and none other , ( which yet we doe not deny , but grant upon the infusion of a supernaturall principle into our soules , which we count formally the life of grace ; the cause whereof we take to be the spirit of god given unto us , and dwelling in our hearts ; ) yet there deserves to be no question , but that as touching all actions of morall vertues , and of the contrary vitious actions , that there is a free power in man to performe them naturally ; untill such time as by a vitious disposition , procured by a custome in vitious courses a man is habitually inclined unto evill ; whereby he is made a slave to vice , and thereby hath deprived himselfe of a morall liberty unto actions vertuous . for like as a man holding a stone in his hand hath power to throw him or no , or to throw him which way he will ; but as soone as he hath throwne him out of his hand ; it is no longer free unto him whether he will throw it or no. in like manner before a vitious habit contracted , man hath freedome morall unto actions vertuous , but not after . this is the doctrine of aristotle , and thus he illustrates it . for certainely the habit of vertue is not an indifferent power to doe an act vertuous or vitious , but it is a morall propension and inclination only to acts vertuous . so is the habit of justice a morall propension and inclination to performe only that which is just . the like may be said of every morall vertue in speciall . how much more doth supernaturall grace consist not in a power to believe , if a man will , to love god if he will , to hope and waite for the joyes of heaven if he will , and if he will to refuse to performe any of these acts , but rather an holy and heavenly habit , or weight wrought in the soule of man , moving and swaying it only to gracious acts pleasing & acceptable in the sight of god , which indeed constitutes a spirituall liberty from sinne , and makes a man become the holy servant of god , willing to receive direction from him , and delighting to be ordered by him in all our waies . on the other side with out grace a man is left in that naturall corruption wherein he was conceived & borne , which makes him a slave to sinne and a vassall to satan led captive by him to doe his will. yet not withstanding there remaines in every one his naturall liberty still , which consists only in the choice of meanes conducing to man's end ; whereas morall vertue and grace doe order the will a right towards aright end ; morall vertues according to the knowledge naturall which he hath of his right end naturall , grace according to the knowledg supernaturall , which a man hath of his right end supernaturall , which is to be rightly disposed and ordered towards god his maker ; so that this naturall liberty still continueth the same ; as for example , he that it vertuous so farre forth as he is vertuous , continueth still free ; not as freedome signifies an indifferency to performe an act vertuous vitious , but being thereby disposed only to vertuous actions , he is free whether to exercise this or that vertuous act , according to occasiōs offered ; or in the same kind of a vertuous disposition ; whether he will doe this or that in particular , as to give in such a proportion , or in such a season , or to such or such persons , in all which being of a vertuous disposition he is ready to receive directions from the dictates of recta ratio , right reason , otherwise called wisedome . in like manner a vitious person still keeps his naturall liberty , though he hath lost his morall , and is become servus tot dominorum , quot vitiorum , a slave to so many lords as there are vices in him , as austin somewhere speaketh . i say he keeps still his naturall liberty . for let him be a robber , he still continueth free to make choice of his complices , of places wherein to lye in waite for his prey , of weapons , and the like . let him be an impure person , still he continueth free to choose whom he will corrupt , to contrive what course he thinks best for the satisfaction of his lusts . let him be covetuous or ambitious , still he contintinueh free to make choice of the meanes conducing to the end obtained by him . in like sort let him be regenerate , a child of god ; by this spirit of regeneration he is moved only to doe those things which are pleasing to his heavenly father , but still his naturall liberty continueth the same , as whether to exercise the grace which god hath given him in one kind or in another , or in the same kind in what particular he thinks good . if he thinks good to pray , it is free to him to fall upon the confession of his sins , or upon thanksgiving , or upon supplication , & that either for blessings temporall , and the releife of his naturall necessities ; or for grace , and the reliefe of necessities spirituall ; or to exercise himselfe in every kind of these , and that in what order he thinks good . so likewise if he give himselfe to meditation , and make choice of what matter he thinks good , as also of time and place , in all this he is free . none of all these distinctions doth this authour take notice of , but hand over head talks of freedome to performe , either acts vicious , or vertuous ; whereas the vertuous man's will , as he is vertuous , is inclined to vertuous courses alone ; and the vitious man , as he is vitious , is inclined to vitious courses alone , and not to vertuous . and it was wont to be said , that , habitus agunt ad modum naturae , habit 's ( whether vertuous or vitious ) they worke after the manner of nature , that is naturally and necessary , as before i have declared of a morall necessity , which still consists with a naturall liberty ; either in vertuous , or vitious exercises to make choice of particulars in respect of all variety of circūstances , according as their reason suggests unto them in the use of means conducent to the end intended , whether that end be good or bad . no dominion of absolute necessity in all this ; much lesse is any man good by absolute necessity but by freedome of will accustoming himselfe unto good actions according to the dictates of reason . but a man that is dead in sinne hath no power to regenerate himselfe ; this worke of regeneration is wrought merely by the power of god : like as the raising of a man from death to life , whereunto it is often compared in holy scripture , as also to creation ; and by regeneration we are said to be made new creatures , now as god workes this in time , so from everlasting he did decree to worke it ; and it was wont to be the generall tenet of protestant divines in opposition unto papists , that a man in his first conversion is merely passive , in which particular roffensis a popish bishop about an hundred yeares agoe opposed martin luther . as for a sinfull or a vitious act , that is alwaies an act naturall ; for acts supernaturall can neither be vitious , nor sinfull ; but merely gracious . and all cōfesse that as all men have naturall power to performe any act naturall , so have they power also to abstaine from it . only untill a man is regenerate he cannot but sinne ; yea though he doe that which is good as touching the substance of the act , or abstaine from that which is evill in like manner ; yet can he not performe the one or abstaine from the other in a gracious manner , therefore you heare not god's word , saith our saviour to the jewes , because ye are not of god. they that are in the flesh cannot please god , that all men are cast into a necessity of sinning , both arminius and corvinus confesse , as formerly i have shewed . and doctor potter acknowledgeth it the doctrine of the church of england , that no naturall man hath libertatem a peccato , though forthwith he nicks it , in saying they have libertatem a necessitate , not explicating it that so he might cleare himselfe from contradiction , whereas doctor fulke usually puts the distinction between liberty from sin , and liberty from coaction , and denying the former unto a naturall man , he granteth the latter . now truely this theologue taketh very profitable paines to prove that sin is not nothing ; and exuberates in the proofe hereof to the very solid conviction of all those that imagine it to be nothing , if there be any such creatures in terra australi incognitâ , which is not very likely ; but rather in the lunary world , or in the joviall world which is waited upon with foure moones , as they that came lately from the discovery thereof , have made report unto us . but by the way , i hope he doth not juggle with us , and under colour of making sin to be some thing , labour to draw us to an acknowledgment that it is some positive thing , as doctor iackson in his last booke the th , as i take it of his commentaries upon the creed laboureth to prove with great strength of affections ; like as in the same vigour of resolution he professeth that whether god punisheth sinne necessarily or no it is not determinable by the wit of man ; but he is not over prodigall of his reasons for either . we are very willing to grant that every sin as sin is something privative , and as touching the act substrate , it is something positive also ; and when the apostle defineth sin by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if in that word the first letter be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 privative , clearely the forme of sin is made to consist in privation , as much as to say an incongruity to the law of god ; that is a privation of congruity thereunto . now we are come to an end of this , let me admonish the reader of the wisedome of this authour ; all along ; he supposeth that by our doctrine sinne comes to passe by absolute necessity , this i say he supposeth , he proveth it not , though we utterly deny , that any such necessity is consequent to our doctrine . and this himselfe knowes full well . alvarez , who maintaines that god determines the creatures will to every act thereof , even to the act of sin , utterly denies that any absolute necessity of humane acts followeth hereupon ; or any necessity that stands in contradiction to humane liberty . bradwardine also sometime arch-bishop of canterbury elect maintaines , that god necessitates the will to every act thereof , yet denies peremptorily that humane acts comes to passe by absolute necessity , or by any necessity that stands in opposition to the liberty of the creature ; only he saith that some kind of necessity , and that antecedent may well consist with the liberty of the creature . all this , this author knows ; yet takes no paines to disprove their tenet , or answer any one of their arguments ; no nor to make good his own consequence , which is the only thing we deny in this present argument of his . as for the other part , namely that in case sin come to passe by absolute necessity , and without any free will in the creature , then sinne is no sinne , which no man denies ; this he proves at large , or at least illustrates at large . secondly observe he talkes of things necessarily comming to passe , not only absolutely but antecedently ; whereby he seemes to grant that sins may come to passe necessarily , but not so absolutely as antecedently , and takes no paines to explicate these his distinctions . and in my judgment they have more need of explication , as they are accommodated to sins comming to passe in the world , then as they are acommodated to the eveniency of faith and repentance ; yet i imagine this word antecedently is brought in of purpose in reference to good actions rather then in reference unto evill . and whether he will have this terme antecedently to be an addition to the former terme absolutely , or only of equivalent force , i know not . but it is the common course of these men to confound their reader with termes proposed without all explication . but let us endeavour to boult out the meaning of these perplexed discourses as well as we can . will this authour have saith to come to passe necessarily and that absolutely , but not antecedently ? or will he have faith to come to passe necessarily , but not absolutely and antecedently ? or will he have faith come to passe not necessarily at all : if not at all necessarily to what purpose doth he clog his reader with such unnecessary complements , of absolutely and antecedently ? if god decrees to bestow faith upon a man , doth it not , necessarily follow hereupon that such a one shall believe ? dares this authour deny it ? yet we account not this absolutely necessary , but merely upon supposition . neither doth god's decree impose necessity upon all things ; as aquinas hath long agoe disputed and proved ; but only upon some things ; that is that some agents shall worke necessarily ; other agents contingently and freely . in a word god both decreeth things to come to passe & the manner of them also ; that is that some things shall come to passe necessarily , other things contingently and freely . but god's decree , we say , is absolute not conditionall , of giving faith . and indeed all his decrees are absolute as touching the act of god willing ; as bradwardine hath demonstrated by cleare reason ; and piscator out of the word of god. but the decree of giving faith is not absolute only as touching the act of god decreeing , but as touching the thing decreed . for faith is not given by god to any upon a condition to be performed by man ; for if it were , then faith should be given according unto workes , that is , grace should be conferred according to mens workes . and when i consider this authour's compounding of these termes absolutely , and antecedently , i begin to suspect that like as then a thing comes to passe antecedently , when it comes to passe by an antecedent decree in this authour's language , ( though most absurd . ) so in his language , the things are said to come to passe by absolute necessity , when they come to passe by an absolute decree ; the decree in his opinion being sufficient to make a thing come to passe necessarily ; & an absolute decree to make it come to passe absolutely necessarily . this undoubtedly is his meaning , upō which i am stūbled are i am aware . now let the sober reader judge how farre these odde conceits are from all sobriety . did not god decree to make the world , nay did he not absolutely decree this and antecedently , not conditionally and consequently ? what therefore will it here-hence follow that the world had it's existence necessarily , and that by the way of absolute necessity ? i had thought this had been the peculiar and incommunicable perfection of god himselfe , namely to exist necessarily , and that in the way of absolute necessity . as for all other things which are but god's creatures , they have only a contingent existence derived originally from the free will of god the creator . for this i take to be the transcendent perfection of god , to be most necessarily ; to worke most freely ; necessity and that absolute , being the greatest perfection of being : so that bradwardine conceives this to be the prime and originall perfection of god , esse necessario , to be necessarily . on the other side freedome in the highest kind , is the greatest perfection 〈◊〉 operation ; and god alone so workes , as without subordination to any superiour agent ; but no creature , man or angell so workes , as without subordination to god the first agent , the first cause , the first free worker . now i come 〈◊〉 the second particular of this second inconvenience . . and that is that our doctrine taketh away the conscience of sin ; and this we willingly grant is consequent upon the former . for if sinne be no sinne , there is no cause why any man should be troubled with the conscience of sin . but all this being grounded upon a vile and most untrue imputation never yet proved , namely that we make all actions both good and evill to come to passe by absolute necessity , there can be no more truth in the consequent then there is in the antecedent . we say that every sinne that is , or ever was committed in the world is and ever was committed freely , not only voluntarily ; much lesse doth any sinne come to passe by any absolute necessity . for albeit there be some things that come to passe necessarily by necessity of nature , as proceeding from agents naturall , working naturally and necessarily . yet is no worke of nature wrought by any absolute necessity . god being able to set an end to nature and the works thereof whensoever it pleaseth him ; and while nature continueth according to the good pleasure of god , he restraines the course thereof , or changeth it as he thinks good . how much lesse doe the actions of men , not only in respect of god's agency , who is the first cause , but in respect of man's agency , a second cause , and working deliberately and freely come to passe not necessarily , but contingently , and freely ; so farre off are they from comming to passe by absolute necessity ; to exist by absolute necessity being the incommunicable perfection of god himselfe . but i confesse this authour sheweth some humanity in the proofe of it , to wit , out of the tragedian very judiciously and learnedly . fati est ista culpa ; nemo fit fato nocens . it is the fault of fate or destiny , and what comes to passe by destiny is no fault of man's . yet zeno the great patron of fate , finding his servant in a fault , when his servant excused himselfe upon fate , saying it was destiny that he should steale ; made a ready answer saying , et caedo , it was his destiny also to be punished ; so farre was he from justifying or excusing his servant upon any such ground , or forbearing to punish him . and doth not this authour know that iocasta for all her acknowledgment of fate governing all things ; yet in conscience of her incestuous courses destroyed her selfe in the same tragedian ? but consider , indifferent reader , whether this authour doth not carry himselfe , as if he were dealing with little children , and his purpose were not to informe them ; but to abuse and mocke them . for is that all waies the faith or opinion of the tragedian , whatsoever he puts into the mouthes of this or that actor ? doe not they represent the absurd pretences of some , as well as the reasonable discourses of others ? then againe who are they that maintaine , fatum , destiny ? where hath he found this maintained by any of our divines ? yet i confesse this authour deales ingeniously in one thing , to wit , in walking so fairely in the steps of this forefathers . for thus the pelagians accused the doctrine of austin , not only after he was dead , as appeares by prosper's epistle ad ruffinum ; but even while he was living as appeares by austin himselfe ; nec sub nomine gratiae fatum asserimus , quia nullis hominum meritis dicimus dei gratiam antecedi : si autem quibusdam omnipotentis dei voluntatem placet fati nomine nuncupari , profanas quidem verborum novitates evitamus , sed de verbis contendere non amamus : neither doe we maintain destiny under the name of grace , in saying grace is not prevented by any merits of man. but if some are pleased to call the will allmighty god by the name of fa●e ( or destiny ) we avoid the profane novelties of words but we doe not love to strive about words . where observe how first the same crimination was made against austin's doctrine by the pelagians , which this authour makes against ours . . the doctrine which the pelagians opposed in this crimination was this , grace is not conferr'd according unto workes . ly , austin disavowes all antecedency of workes to the bestowing of grace , how much more to the decreeing of grace to be bestowed on any , which yet is the beloved helena of this authour therefore he talkes so oft against an antecedent decree . then againe it is manifest that the greatest maintainers of destiny and sate , did not maintaine it in any opposition to the free wills of men . and austin him selfe professeth that such a necessity as is expressed in these words , necesse est ut fiat , it must needs be that such a thing shall come to passe , containes no inconvenience , nor is any way prejudiciall to the free wills of men . his words are these ; sienim necessitas nostra ida dicenda est , quae non est in nostra 〈◊〉 , ●●detiamsi nelumus , efficit quod potest , sicut est necessitas mortis ; manifestū est 〈◊〉 nostras , quibus recte aut perperam vivitur , sub tale necessitate non esse , multa●●im 〈◊〉 , quae si nolemus , non facerimus . si autem illa desinitur esse necessitas , secundum quam dicimus necesse esse ut aliquid ita sit vel ita fiat , nescio cur eam timeamus , ne nobis liv● 〈◊〉 voluntatis auferat . if that is to be accounted our necessity , which is net in our power , but whether we will or no , worketh as it can such as is the necessity of death ; it is apparent that our wills whereby we live well or ill are not under the the necessity of fate . for we doe many things , which if we would not we should not doe them . but if necessity be defined to be such a thing as when we say it must needs be that a thing be thus , or thus come to passe ; i know not why we should feare least such a necessity should bereave us of free will. and this austin delivers to meet with the vaine feares of those , who placed our wills among'st those things which are not subject to necessity , least so they should loose their liberty . observe this well and compare it with the present discourse of this positive theologue , who thinks to outface austin with the authority of his bare word . in the words following he manifests that he speakes all this while of necessity in respect of god's decree not simply , but considered as irresistable ; by the way making no bones of avouching some decrees of god to be resistable , notwithstanding the psalmist's protestation whatsoever the lord willeth , that hath he done both in heaven and earth ; and st. paul's emphaticall expression of the same truth , saying , who hath repsted his will ? but this divine is a brave fellow ; and thinks to carry all with his breath . for where hath he given us any reason to prove that any decrees of god are of any resistable condition ? but let his decrees be never so irresistable , and let that be true which austin saith , that , non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit ; not any thing comes to passe , unlesse god will have it come to passe . and after austin the church of ireland in their articles of religion . yet if god will have every thing come to passe agreeably to the nature & condition thereof thus , necessary things necessarily , contingent things contingently , as aquinas hath not only said , but proved ; hereby is no impeachment to the liberty of the creature , but an establishment thereof rather , as the arch-bishops , bishops , and clergy of ireland have professed in the foresaid article ; that i may shew some authority for my sayings , as this authour represents none for his , but carrieth himselfe like a master of sentences , as if he were in his own sufficiency of more authority and credit to be believed , then the pope in a generall councell : and albeit my selfe after many others , and some formerly mentioned have shewed in a large digression to this purpose that necessity upon supposition , may well stand with contingency , and liberty simply so called . and in the first place have instanced in necessity of infallibility consequent to god's prescience , which though cicero thought could not consist with man's liberty , yet christians have alwaies been of a contrary opinion ; untill the sect of the socinians arose ; and arminians are very apt to shew them so much courtesy as to beare their bookes after them . secondly i have proved a necessity upon supposition of god's decree to permit sinne . for the lord takes upon him to be the keeper of us from sinne , as gen : . . he professeth as much to abimilech , that he kept him from sinning against god. in case god will not keep a man from sinne , what can be expected , but that he will undoubtedly sinne without any prejudice to the liberty of his will , considering that of austin ; libertas sine gratia non est libertas sed contumacia , liberty without grace , is not liberty but wilfulnesse . thirdly and lastly upon supposition of god's will ; and this i prove evidently to passe on every thing which god foreseeth as future considering that contingent things are merely possible in their own nature ; and cannot passe out of the condition of things merely possible into the condition of things future , without a cause : and no other cause of this transmigration can be devised with any colour of reason or probability , save only the will of god. neither doe i find that digression of mine in any the least part weakened , or so much as assailed by ought that this authour hath delivered ; who sheweth himselfe upon the stage , rather to brave his opposites with the bare authority of his words , then with sound argument to dispute ought . sect : . because it taketh away the desert and guilt of sin . offences if fatall , cannot be justly punished . . the reason is because those deed for which men are punished or rewarded must be their own , under their own power and and soveraignty , but such are no fatall acts or events . neither temporally nor eternally can sin be-punished , if it be absolutely necessary . not temporally , as god himselfe hath given us to understand by that law which he prescribed the jewes deut : . . which was that it a maid commit uncleanesse by constraint , she should not be punished . his reason was because there was no cause of death in her ; what she yeilded to was through compulsion , being overborne by power ; as a man that is wounded to death by his neighbour ; so was a virgin in that case a sufferer rather then a doer . this particular law is of universall right : no just punishment can be inslicted for sinne , where there is no power in the party to avoid it . the speech of lipsius is but a mere crorchet contrary to reason , ( fatali culpae fatalis poena ) fatall faults must have fatall punishments . did magistrates thinke mens offences unavoidable , they would thinke it bootlesse , and unreasonable to punish them . nay not only so , but we see by dayly experience , that judges following the direction of reason have very remissely punished such faults as have been committed through the power of the head strong & exorbitant passions . yea we may read of some who have not thought it fit to punish such faults at all . valcrius maximus telleth that popilius a roman praetor sitting in judgment on a woman who had in a bitter passion slaine her mother , because she had murthered her children ( neque damnavit , neque absolvit ) neither cleared her nor condemned her and aulus gellius reporteth of dolabella the proconsul of asia , that when a woman of smyrna was brought before him who had poysoned her husband and son for murthering a son of hers , which she had by a former husband ; he turned her over to the arcopagus , which was the gravest and most renowned judgment seat in the world ; the judges there not daring to acquit her , being stained with a double slaughter , nor yet to punish her being provokt with just greife , commanded the accuser & offender to come before them an hundred yeares after . and so neither was the womans fact justified , the lawes not allowing of it ; nor yet the woman punished because she was worthy to be pardoned . if wise , magistrates have spared such offenders as have been overswayed with passions , which did but incline , not determine them to their irregular actions ; they would never have punished any trespassers , if they had thought them to be such by invincible necessity , or if offenders did thinke that their offences were their destinies , and that when they murther , steale , commit adultery , make insurrections , plot treasons , or practise any other outragious villanies , they doe them by the necessity of gods unalterable decree ; and can doe no otherwise : they would and might comp●aine of their punishments as unjust , as zenoes servant did ; when he was beaten by his master for a fault , he told him out of his own grounds that he was unjustly beaten . because he was ( ●fato coactus peccare ) constrained to make that fault by his undeclinable fate . the ad●umctine monks , misled by saint austin epist . . ad sixtum presbyterum , ( which he calleth a booke wherein he setteth downe his opinion concerning gods grace ) did so teach grace that they denyed free will. and this saint austin confuted in his booke de gratia & liberoarbitrio . and thinking the grace of god ( as saint austin taught ) to be such as could not stand with freedome of will , they thought that no man should be punished for his faults , but rather prayed for that god would give them grace to doe better . against this austin directed his other booke , de correp : & gratiá . in which discourse though it be grace that is still named , yet predestination is included . for as kimedontius saith truely in his preface to luther de servo arbitrio . between grace and predestination there is only this difference ( as saint austin teacheth libro de praedest . sanctorum cap. . ) that predestination is a preparation of grace , and grace a bestowing of predestination . as zenoes servant and these monks did , so would all men judge ; did they considerately thinke that men could not choose but offend . and what would be the resultance of such a perswasion , but an inundation of the greatest insolencies , and dissolution of all good goverment . indeed if our doctrine make sin to be no sin , and therewithall take away the conscience of sin ; it is not to be marvailed , if it take away the desert and guilt of sinne : for as sinne is no sinne ; so likewise it is as fit that the desert and guilt of sinne , should be the desert and guilt of no sinne ; and so no desert or guilt at all . this authour to serve his own turne takes great libery of discourse in talking of offences fatall ; these were called by austin profane novelties of words . yet elsewhere he professeth that if no other thing were meant hereby then the divine providence . sententiam teneant , linguā corrigant ; let thē hold their orthodoxe meaning , but let thē correct their language now by providence divine is meant the will of god , working every thing that is good , and permitting every thing that is evill . and without this will of god not any thing comes to passe in the judgment of austin . non aliquid sit saith he , nisi ōnipotens furi velit , vel sinen●o ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo , not any thing comes to passe , unlesse almighty god will have it come to passe , either by suffering it , or by 〈◊〉 working of it to wit , if evill , suffering it , if good working it ; but of each he professeth that god wills it the abominable outrages committed upon the person of the holy son of god , were such as god's hand and god's counsell sore determined , that is as much as to say , antecedently determined to be done . and the ●en kings in giving their kingdomes to the beast , are said herein to have agreed to dce god's will. yet this authour dares not say , that these actions could not be justly punished yet the maintainets of destiny ( as i have shewed out of austin ) denyed that the wills of men were subject to destiny ; while this authour talkes in their language , why doth he not talke in their meaning ? and if he talkes in our meaning why doth he not talke in our language ? now austin farther saith ( is i have shewed out of the same place ) that they who exempted the wills of men from all necessity , seared a vaine and causelesse feare ; professing that as to some necessity the will is not subject , such as is the necessity of death , which befalls us whether we will or no. so to some necessity it may be subject without any danger ; and that necessity he expresseth to be such , as when we say , it must needs be that such a thing come to passe . now such a necessity and no other is granted by us as consequent to the will of god , so that if god will give a man faith , it must needs be , such a man shall believe ; if he will give repentance it must needs be , that such a man shall repent ; if he will keep such a man as abimelech from sinning against him , it must needs be , that such a man shall be kept from sinning against him . if god will not give a man faith , nor repentance , it must needs be , that such a man will not believe , will not repent . in like manner if god will not keepe a man from sinne , but suffer him to sinne ; it needs must be that such a one shall sinne . if god harden the heart of pharoah , so that he shall not set israel goe , undoubtedly so it shall come to passe . if god put it into the hearts of the kings to give up their kingdomes to the beast , they shall infallibly give their kingdomes to the beast . if he gives men over unto a reprobate mind to doe things inconvenient , undoubtedly being thus prostituted by god to their own corruption from within , and to the power of satan from without , they shall doe those inconvenient things , be they never so abominable ; yet not necessarily , much lesse in the way of absolute necessity , ( as this authour wordeth it , affecting to speake with a full mouth ( which is a quality naturall to these arminians , and runnes in a blood ) but proveth nothing ) but contingently and freely , not only with a possibility , but also with an active power to the contrary . and if freely , then surely their works are their own , proceeding from their own power and soveraignty , but yet not supreame and absolute dominion and independent in their operation , on god their maker . god must have the prerogative still of being the first mover , the first cause , the first agent , the first free agent ; so farre off are we from maintaining that the actions of men have their being by absolute necessity ; that we utterly deny any thing in the world to have ' its existence by absolute necessity , saving god alone , as before i have shewed . sciendum , saith durand , quod loquendo de necessitate simpliciter , voluntas divina nec imponit , nec imponere potest rebus necessitatem ; nec res creatae sunt capaces talis necessitatis . we are to know that speaking of necessity simply so called , the will of god neither doth impose , or can impose any such necessity on things , neither are creatures capable of such necessity . but if we speake of such necessity as creatures are capable of under the divine liberty , by causes intermediate ; it is to be said that all things doe not come to passe of necessity ; but some doe , and some doe not . god will have some things come to passe by the mediation of causes necessary , & those come to passe necessarily ; others come to passe by the mediation of causes contingent , and those come to passe contingently ; whereby , saith he , 't is manifest that they say not well , who say that all things come to passe of necessity in reference to the divine will ; because , as hath been shewed , in respect of the divine will , all things come to passe freely ; and therefore speaking absolutely , they may not come to passe , although , upon supposition that they are willed , they cannot but come to passe ; but this is only necessity upon supposition . . indeed if men did sinne against their wills ; and virgins sometimes are ravished , & men are slaine by force full sore against their wills , they deserved no punishment . but is it possible that a man can will that which is evill against his will ? every ordinary scholar in the university knowes that axiome , voluntas non potest cogi , the will cannot be forced . lipsius his speech , fatali culpae fatalis poena , fatall faults have fatall punishments , this authour saith , is but a mere crotchet contrary to reason . as if he would teach the very maintainers of fate , yea the very first to understand themselves . for fate wherewith our doctrine is charged by our opposites is commonly called fate stoicall . now zeno was the father of the stoicks ; yet when his servant was taken playing the theife , pleaded for himselfe , saying it was my destiny to steale . zeno answeared him in his own language , that it was his destiny to smart for it too ; right in this same sense that lipsius spake . yet zeno knew full well that he punished his servant freely . and zeno is well knowne to have been a great master of morality for all this , which could not consist with denying the liberty of man's will , as this authour well knowes . and austin censureth those who feared to subject the will to all manner of necessity , as men transported with vaine and causelesse feares ; manifesting thereby that some necessity may very well consist with a man's liberty . magistrates though they believe with austin that , not any thing comes to passe , unlesse allmighty god will have it come to passe ; and with the church of ireland , that god from all eternity did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine whatsoever should in time come to passe . and with aquinas that the roote of contingency , is the effectuall will of god ; yet may they well thinke it reasonable enough to punish offences ; seing that god decrees that some things , even all the actions of men shall come to passe contingently ; as well as other things shall come to passe necessarily . for to come to passe contingently is to come to passe avoidably ; and if they be the actions of men , freely also . it is incredible that any sober man should remissely punish faults for the exorbitancy & strength sake of the passions , whereby they were committed , but rather in consideration of the potent causes which raised such passions in them , under a colour of justice . and we commonly say the greater the temptation is , the lesse is the sin . so peter surprised suddainly with feare denied his master . yet what saith aristotle . in some things no force is suffecient for excuse ; but a man ought to dy rather any manner of death , then commit them . for those things in euripedes are rediculous , which moved alcmaeon to kill his mother . indeed plato maintained that things done through passion were not voluntary . but aristotle a better master then he , disproves it , and by excellent reasons confirmes the contrary . and whatsoever popilius the roman pretor judged of her , who slew her mother , provoked by her mothers fact in murthering her children ; yet let our lawes be consulted , and the opinion of our judges in such a case ; and whether such a one were not to be condemned ; and whether popilius his judgment deserves to be admitted for the correction of the lawes of our land , and working a reformation in this particular . we should soone have a wild world , if every one being provoked by the insolencies of others should thrust themselves into the throne of god for the execution of vengeance ; yet none more unfit for this , then the daughter to execute god's vengeance upon the mother that bare her . yet it was wont to be held , if i forget not , that potestas patria originally was power of life and death . but all is fish that comes to this authour's net ; like as her fact who poisoned her husband and son for killing a son of hers ; destroying two for one without all authority most unnaturally ; and that not hastily , but in a deliberate way by poisoning . and doth it become christians to admire such heathenish courses of men nothing acquainted with the divine providence ? and was this so doubtfull a case , whether so wicked a wretch avenging her selfe by poison secretly given upon her husband and son for the death of another son of hers , that the sentencing thereof should be put over untill an yeares after ? but what of all this ? these willfully affect revenge , the execution whereof belongs not to them ; but it is just with god to punish sinne with sinne ; one man's sinne by another . as of senacherib the lord professeth , that he would cause him to fall by the sword in his own land , this was brought to passe by his own children falling upon him furiously , and as unnaturally as the actions of any of these . how was innocent naboth used , and by publique sentence condemned to be stoned to death , and accordingly executed by the practise of wicked iezabel ? yet solomon spareth not to professe that every man's judgment commeth of the lord. never were more abominable courses executed upon any , then upon the holy son of god : yet these were all foredetermined by the hand of god , and the counsell of god , as the apostles with one voice acknowledge . by the same providence was ioseph sold into egypt , god working thereby the preservation of them that sold him ; thus sihon was hardened , and the canaanites , and the egyptians with pharaoh their king to their own destruction . thus the lord punished david's foule sinne by the murther of amnon contrived by his own brother ; and by the sword of absolon rising up against his own father ; and by the sword of shimei's tongue cursing david ; wherein david acknowledged the hand of god. thus he punished the idolatry of the gentiles by giving them over to vile affections , and so prostituting them to abominable courses . what outrages were committed by senacherib that proud and blasphemous wretch upon the people of god ; yet is he called the rod of god's wrath and the staffe in his hand ; is said to be god's indignation . and if god leaves any man to his corruption , and offers occasions and temptations from without , which are naturally apt to actuate such corruptions ; and withall gives them over to the power of satan ; what is to be expected , but that they will breake forth into murther , as in senacherib's sons ; and the jewes crucifying the son of god ; into stealth sacrilegious , as in achan ; into adultery and that in an incestuous manner as we see in absalom ; into insurrections , an example whereof we have in the ten tribes revolting from rehoboam ; into treasons as iudas betraying his own master ; and into all manner of outragious villanies , whereof the scripture makes plentifull mention , and of the providence of god therein ? as for god's determining to the act , that is nothing at all materiall to the point in hand , though this authour in his crude conceits , is much intoxicated therewith ; for as much as , whether the wicked are exercised in actions good for the substance of them ; or in abstaining from that which is evill , they never a whit the more either performe the one , or abstaine from the other in a gracious manner ; and all for want of grace supernaturall , which god is not bound to bestow on any . all sides confesse that divine concourse is necessary to every act , as without which the creature cannot move . for in god we move , as well as in him we live , and in him we have our being . and about this concourse a question is made , to wit , whether god's influence be only into the act , and that upon condition , modo nos velimus , provided that we will , is as absurd and contradictious a conceit , as can be devised ; seing the greatest question is concerning the act of willing : and is it possible that god shall worke this act upon condition that it be wrought by us ? why , if it be wrought by us , what need is there of god's working it ? can the same act be the condition of it selfe , and so both before and after it selfe ? to avoid this precipice others fly to god's prescience , that at such an instant man will produce such an act of will , provided that god will produce it , which is worse then the former . for hereby each agent 's operation is made the condition of the other , whence no operation at all can proceed . then againe a thing is fained to be foreseen by god as future , which hath no cause of the futurition thereof , being in it's own nature merely possible , that is no more future indeed , then not future : and nothing but the will and decree of god can make it passe out of the condition of a thing merely possible into the condition of a thing future , as is made manifest by invincible reason . therefore we say the influence of god necessarily required to every action , is made into the will it selfe moving it agreably to the nature thereof , to doe whatsoever it doth , not voluntarily only , but freely also ; taking liberty aright and as it ought to be taken , that is in the choice of meanes tending to an end , whether that end be a man's right end or no. for it is confessed by moralists that the motion of the will towards it's congruous end , is naturall and necessary , not free . but this brave gentleman carrieth himselfe aloft , and superciliously despising to enter into any of these lists of argumentation ; and as if the matter were conclusum contra manichaeos , confidently supposeth , without all proofe , that we maintaine that all humane actions come to passe by absolute necessity : whereas to the contrary 't is evident that nothing in the world hath it's existence by absolute necessity , saving god alone . 't is true , god's decree is unalterable , and whatsoever comes to passe comes to passe by his will saith austin : and the church of ireland ; by the effectuall will of god , saith aquinas , as which , he makes the roote of all contingency ; and therefore as necessary causes worke necessarily by the will of god ; so by the same will of god doe contingent agents worke contingently ; and free agents worke voluntarily and freely . and observe the immodesty of this authour , he tells us what zeno's servant pleaded for himselfe with his master ; but he doth not tell what zeno answered him , that he conceales ; it is enough for him to gull and cheate poore ignorants . the adrumetine monks , he saith , were misled by austin ; a vile imputation cast upon that man whose memory hath been alwaies honourable in the church of god ; and the memoriall of his opposites rots . did austin misleade them ? did he draw them into errour ? if they did mistake austin , shall it be true therefore to say they were misled by him ? how many mistake and misunderstand god's word ; what then ? shall we be so audacious and blasphemous , as to say they are misled by the word of god ? why may not such impudent persons proceed , and say they are misled by the holy ghost ? then that which he saith of these monks , as misled by austin , it is a notorious untruth ; cresconius and felix that came over to austin of their own heads to complaine of some in their monastry ; laid to their charge indeed that they so taught grace , that they denied freewill ; & that this they pretended to have learned out of austin's booke written to sixtus the presbyter . but austin was not hasty to believe this crimination : and therefore he saith disjunctively of that monke of whom they complained , aut librum meum non intelligit , aut ipse non intelligitur ; either he understands not my booke ; or himselfe is not well understood by his brethren . if the information were true , then that brother of whom they complained mistooke austin . for austin doth not any where so maintaine grace , as to deny free-will . but if that brother understood austin aright in that foresaid booke of his , then he maintained no such opinion as cresconius and felix laid to his charge , but they rather misunderstood him . and this appeared to be most true afterwards . for florus was the man whom cresconius and felix accused , and whom austin desired of valentinus the father of them , that he would send over unto him , as coccius acknowledgeth , & accordingly he was sent over to austin , as appeares in austin's booke de corrept . & gratiâ cap. . with whom when austin had conferred , he found him most orthodoxe as himselfe professeth in the chapter mentioned , and therein much rejoyced , and withall signifieth to valentinus that they deserved rather to be checked who misunderstood florus . and therefore when austin in his retractations comes to take notice of his booke de gratiâ & libero arbitrio , and the occasion of writing thereof , he sets it downe not absolutely , because of those who so doe maintaine grace , as withall they deny free-will , but with a disjunctive addition , thus , or because of those who thinke when grace is maintained , therewithall that free-will is denied . the first was delivered in reference to the crimination made before him by cresconius , and felix against florus ; but the latter was according to austin's suspicion at the first , which proved afterwards to be a truth , as appeares by the first chapter of austin's booke de correptione & gratiâ ; where florus is justified and magnified by st. austin , and his criminators condemned . and seing there were none such among the monks of adrumetum , as the accusants pretended , who so maintained grace , as to deny free-will ; therefore that also must needs be false which followeth in this authour , when he saith that against them also st. austin wrote his other booke de correptione & gratiâ : and the truth is the whole buisinesse was ended and the tumult appeased between those adrumetine monks , before florus came over ; as appeared by the relation made unto him by florus concerning the amicable composition of all things there . and austin in this very passage which this authour grates upon , professeth that he writes not against them ; only he answereth such an objection ( for i conceive it to be no other ) more fully which was made by some of them formerly against florus , and the doctrine of austin maintained by florus . the relation whereof was brought unto him by the same florus , as it seemes . but of this more at large in my digression concerning the predestinarian heresy , which i purpose to subjoine to this . austin saith indeed that , praedestinatio est gratiae praeparatio , gratia verò ipsa donatio . predestination is the preparation of grace , grace the gift it selfe which was prepared ; not the bestowing of it : how can it be ? can a gift temporall be the bestowing of a thing eternall ? what entertainment zeno's servant found at his masters hands ( which this authour conceales ) i have often shewed who taught no such doctrine as destiny as to free a knave from stripes ; who as so great a philosopher had a better judgment in the nature of fate then his servant ; and himselfe so well thought of by the whole state of athenians . yet was not zeno so well instructed in the mystery of divine providence , as we are by the word of god ; even from the selling of ioseph all along to the crucifying of the son of god ; & from thence to the kings giving up their kingdomes to the beast , which should come to passe in the latter part of the last times of the world . but let him make himselfe mery with zeno's servant , who taken in a theevish fact was content to helpe himselfe with any pretence ; but zeno we know did not approve of his appology , but prepared a rod for the knaves back in despite of that . and as for the monks , the relation that here he makes is merely a fiction of his own braine without all ground . thus his foundation being ruined , no marvaile if the house he builds thereon must needs totter and fall on his ownpate . sect : . . nor if this be true can sin be punished eternally , or that tribunall be just on which the sentence of eternall fire shall be denounced against the wicked at the last day . to this i have the fathers bearing witnesse generally and plainly . tertullian hath there words ; the recompence of god and evill can with no justice be given to him , who is good or evill , not freely but of necessity . saint hierome saith , where necessity domineers , there is no place for retribution . epiphanius saith , the stars which impose upon men a necessity of sinning , may be punished with better justice then the men themselves . we place mens nativities under no fatall constell●tions , saith saint austin , that we may free the will by which a man liveth either well or ill , from all bands of necessity , because of the righteous judgment of god. prosper speaking of the judgment of god , by which he decreed to render unto every man according to his works , saith , this judgment would never be if men did sinne by the will and determination of god. fulgentius also saith the same . it is great injustice in god , to punish him whom he doth not find , but make an offender . this was saint peruards opinion too ; it is only a will free from compulsion and necessity saith he , which maketh a creature capable of reward & punishment out of these restimonies laid together may be collected three things . . that the ancients did use to call a necssity of humane actions good or bad , by the name of destiny , from what externall cause soever this necessity did arise . . that they did use these two words ( necessity ) and ( compulsion ) promiscuously ; and therefore thought that necessity as well as compulsion did take away the wills liberty . . ( which is for our present purpose ) that they believed and contended that the judgments of god on sinners could not be just , if they were held by the adamantine chaines of any absolute necessity , under the power of their sins . i will therefore conclude this argument with the words of epiphanius writing of the errour of the pharis●es , who beleived the immortality of the soule , and the resurrection of the dead , & yet held that all things come to passe by necessity . it is , saith he , a point of extreame ignorance ; or madnesse rather , for him that confesseth the resurection of the dead , and the great day appointed for the revelation of god's righteous judgment , to say that there is any destiny , any necessity in mens actions for how can the righteous judgment of god and destiny comply and stand together ? and ( let me adde ) how can the beliefe of this and true piety stand together ? for where this perswasion that mens sins are necessary , and that therefore there can be no righteous judgment , is rooted in religion will quickly be rooted out . . it tendes to religions overthrow ; because it makes the whole circle of man's life , but a mere destiny . by it all our doings are god's ordinances , all our imaginations branches of his predestination ; and all events in kingdomes and commonweales the necessary issues of the divine decree . all things whatsoever though they seem to doe somewhat ; yet by this opinion , they doe indeed just nothing ; the best lawes restrain not one offender the sweetest rewards promote not one vertue , the powerfull'st sermons convert not one sinner , the humblest devotions divert not one calamity ; the strongest endeavours in things of any nature whatsoever , effect no more then would be done without them , but the necessitating , overruling decree of god doth all . and if lawes doe nothing , wherefore are they made ? if rules of religion doe nothing , why are they prescribed ? if the wills of men doe nothing , why are men encouraged to one thing , scared from another ? ther ? and if good endeavours and onsets doe nothing ( being excited , continued , limited , controlled and every way governed by an active , absolute , and almighty decree , to what purpose are they used ? who seeth not plainly whither these things tend ? to nothing more then to the subversion of piety and pollicy , religion & lawes , society and government ? this did the romans see full well ; and therefore they banished ( mathematicos , the teachers & abetters of destiny ) out of rome . these and the like inconveniencies which come from the uppper way , did worke so with prosper , as that he calls him no catholique who is of this opinion . whosoever saith that men are urged to sinne , and to be damned by the predestination of god , as by a fatall , unavoidable necessity , he is no catholique . they did also make the arausican counsell denounce a curse against such . that any are predestinated by the divine power to sinne , we doe not only not believe , but with the greatest detestation that we can ▪ we denounce anathema to such ( if there be any such ) as will believe so great an evill . thus farre of my ●easons against the upper and more harsh and rigorous way . . undoubtedly if sin cannot be punished temporally , it cannot be punished eternally . we have no need , i should thinke of the authority of any fathers to justifie this . where doth this authour find , that we maintaine that a man is good or evill , not freely but by necessity , that tertullian is brought in as opposing us here ? yet we thinke this is worthy of distinction : for was not adam made by god habitually good ? durand . i am sure , maintaines that in his creation he was endued with all morall vertues : & this we read in scripture , that all things which god made were very good : & as other things were made very good in their kind : so i presume man was made very good in his kind : and how this could be unlesse he were made vertuous , i cannot conceive . so likewise man being brought forth in the corrupt masse ; when afterwards he is made good either in the way of justification , or in the way of regeneration ; these are no free acts of man , but rather the free acts of god. i presume this authour dares not say that man regenerates himselfe but as for the denomination of goodnesse and badnesse in man , that ariseth from any actions of his , i willingly grant all such goodnesse or badnesse is acquired freely , not necessarily . and as tertullian takes necessity , to wit in opposition unto liberty ; so i presume doth hierome too ; otherwise these two fathers were yoaked together unequally in this place . now we know no such necessity domineering in man , as stands in opposition to liberty . much lesse doe we maintaine any necessity over the will of man , depending upon fatall constellations ; and as epiphanius , and austin discourse thus of necessity in reference to fatall constellations ; so it seemes likely that hierome and tertullian did discourse of necessity in the same sense . to sinne by the will of god in prosper is to sin by the predestination of god , as appeares both by the objection it selfe , and prosper's answer thereunto throughout . now predestination in the fathers meaning is of no other things , thē such as god purposed to worke . and accordingly we answer that no evill in the world , as evill , comes to passe by god's will to worke it ; but only by god's will to permit it . and it is austin's expresse professiō , that non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit . not any thing comes to passe , unles god almighty will have it come to passe ; but how ? not all after one manner , but after a different manner ; some by working them , others by permitting them ; vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo ; either by suffering it to come to passe , in case it be evill , or himselfe working it , in case it be good . fulgentius justifies this sense in his sentence here alleadged . for to sinne by god's will in prosper , is all one with being made an offender ( or made to sinne ) by god , in fulgentius . now we say god makes many a man good by regeneration ; but he makes none evill ; only he doth not cure that naturall or habituall viciousnesse , which he finds amongst men , in all . for he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth ; and indeed he is bound to none . st. bernard clearely maintaines that there is noe liberty from sinne in any naturall man ; and consequently every naturall man is cast upon a necessity of sinning ; and therefore that liberty from necessity which he grants to man , can be no other then liberty from compulsion ; and so dr. fulke usually makes the distinction run between liberty from sin , and liberty from coaction ; & denying the one he grants the other . that the antients did call that necessity , which ariseth from the will of god upon the will of the creature by the name of destiny ; this authour brings not the least colour of proofe ; neither do i thinke he is able to bring any , save only of the pelagians , who traduced austin's doctrine of predestination by the name of destiny . and so they traduced his doctrine in denying that grace was conferred according to mens workes ; whereupon it was that he built his doctrine of predestination , as is apparent de bono perseverantiae . c. . in the second i wonder this author observes not how he contradicts himselfe . for if they used these words necessity , & compulsion ; promiscuously ; doth it not evidently follow that they distinguished them not ? but alwaies tooke them of equivalent signification . but i doe not find that austin tooke necessity of the same signification with compulsion ; when he distinguisheth of necessity ; saying some necessity is such , as whereby a thing befalls a man , whether he will or no ; as the necessity of death ; and to such a necessity he saith , the will is not subject . another necessity there is , as when we say , it must needs be , that this , or that come to passe , and he confesseth plainly that the will may be subject to such a necessity , without danger or prejudice to the liberty thereof . and well they might hold that god's judgments were not just on sinners , if they were held by any absolute necessity under the power of their sins . we say that nothing hath either existence , or continuance , by absolute necessity , save god alone . but i guesse this authour calls that necessity absolute , which flowes from god's absolute decree . now if he will have god's decrees to be conditionall , it stands him upon to prove it , not boldly suppose it . especially seeing aquinas hath professed that never any man was so mad as to say that there is any cause of god's predestination , as touching the act of god's predestinating ; and that there can be no cause hereof he proves because there can be no cause of god's will , as touching the act of god willing , as formerly he had proved . and doctor iackson in his booke of providence confesseth that the distinction of god's will , into a will antecedent , and a will consequent , is not to be understood as touching the act of god willing ; but as touching the things willed . and accordingly , seeing reprobation in it 's kind is the will of god , as well as predestination in it's kind ; it followeth , that as there can be no cause of the will of god , as touching the act of god willing ; no cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating ; so neither can there be any cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating . and looke how mad a thing it is for any man to maintaine that there is some cause of predestination , as touching the act of god predestinating . so as mad a thing it must be every way to avouch that there is a cause of reprobation , as touching the act of god reprobating . and truely the apostle st. paul plainly manifests that upon what ground he proves , that election is not of good works ( namely because before iacob or esau were borne , or had done good or evill , it was said , the elder shall serve the younger ) upon the same ground we may be bold to conclude , that reprobation is not of evill workes . and the same reason manifests that faith and infidelity are excluded from being the causes , the one of election , the other of reprobation ; as well as good and evill workes . and both piscator by evidence of scripture , and bradwardine by evidence of reason have demonstrated , that no will of god is conditionall , which is to be understood , as touching the act of god willing . and it may be evidently further demonstrated thus ; if any thing be the cause of god's will , then either by necessity of nature , or by the constitution of god ; not by necessity of nature , as is evident and all confesse , there being no colour of truth for that ; besides such an opinion were most dangerously prejudiciall to god's soveraignty , and liberty . if therefore they say , it is by the constitution of god , maske i pray what an insuperable absurdity followeth hereupon . for seing god's constitution is his will , it followeth that god did will that upon foresight of this or that he would will such a man's salvation , and such a man's damnation . and thus the act of god's will is made the object of god's will , even the eternall act of god's will ; whereas to the contrary it is apparent , that the objects of god's will are things temporall , never any thing that is eternall but as touching things willed , we readily grant , it may be said there is a cause thereof as school-divines doe generally acknowledge . and thus gerardus vossius speaks of the conditionall will , which he faith the fathers doe ascribe to god. for this is the instance which he gives thereof , as for example , when god ordaines to bestow salvation on a man in case he believe ; here faith is made the condition of salvation , but not of the will of god and in like manner we willingly grant that reprobation is conditionall , inasmuch as god intends to inflict damnation on none , but such as die in sin without repenance but albeit predestination , as touching this particular thing willed , may be said to be conditionall according as the school-men explicate their meaning ; and reprobation likewise as touching the particular of dānatiō mētioned : yet no such thing cā be truely affirmed either of the one or of the other , as touching the particulars of grāting , or denying the grace of règeneratiō , which are intended also by the decrees of predestinatiō & reprobatiō . for albeit god intends not to bestow salvation on any , but upon condition of faith ; nor damnation on any , but upon condition of finall impenitency and infidelity . yet god intends not to bestow the grace of regeneration on some for the curing of their naturall infidelity and impenitency . nor to leave the same infidelity and impenitency uncured in others , by denying the same grace of regeneration unto them . this i say god doth not intend to bring to passe upon any condition ; for if he should , then grace should be conferred according unto works , which was condemned in the synod of palestine and all along in divers synods , and councells against the pelagians . so that albeit god proceeds according to a law in bestowing salvation , and inflicting damnation ; yet he proceeds according to no law , in giving or denying the grace of regeneration for the curing of our naturall corruption ; but merely according to the pleasure of his will , as the apostle testifies saying , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardeneth . and if the conferring and denying of this grace be absolute ; how much more are the decrees hereof to be accounted most absolute ? and consequently that one man is delivered from the power of his sins , whether originall or habituall ; another is not , but still continueth under the power of them ; this i say , doth , & must needs come to passe by vertue of gods absolute decrees . yet no absolute necessity followeth hereupon . first because no greater necessity then that which is absolute can be attributed to the existence and continuance of god himselfe . secondly god did absolutely decree to make the world ; yet no wise man was ever known to affirme that the worlds existence was , and is by absolute necessity . in like sort , god did absolutely decree , that iosiah should burne the prophets bones , upon the altar ; that cyrus should build his citty and let goe his captives ; that no man should desire the israelites land , when they should come to appeare before the lord their god thrice in the yeare ; that god would circumcise their hearts , and the hearts of their children to love the lord their god withall their heart , and with all their soule . to put his feare in their hearts , that they should never depart away from him ; to cause them to walke in his statutes and judgments to doe them . to worke in them both the will and the deed , according to his good pleasure . yea to worke in them every thing that is pleasing in his sight through iesus christ . likewise that absolom should defile his fathers concubines , that the jewes should crucify the son of god ; that some through disobedience should stumble at the word ; that the kings should give their kingdomes to the beast . yet these actions were done by them as freely as ever they did ought in their lives ; all these things i say by scripture evidence were decreed by god to come to passe ; the good by god's effection the evill by god's permission ; and decreed absolutely on their parts that did them ; if not , let it be shewed upon what condition on absolon's part , he should defile his fathers concubines ; upon what condition on the jewes part , they should crucify the son of god ; upon what condition on their part , others through disobedience should stumble at god's word ; and upon what condition on their part , the kings should give their kingdomes to the beast . and if they take arminias his way , let them reply upon mine answere to arminius ; if bellarmin's , let them reply upon my answer to bellarmine , that we may not trouble the world with out tautologies : if a different way from both these , i shall be glad , to be acquainted with it , & give it such entertainement as according to my judgment it shall be found to deserve . so that with epiphanius , though we are ready to concurre in denying destiny , which as before we heard out of him was a necessity derived from the starres ; yet with austin we may still hold that the wills of men need not to be exempted from all necessity , to maintaine the liberty thereof , and he gives instance in such a necessity as whereby we say , it most needs be that such a thing come to passe , as no way prejudiciall to man's liberty . and arminius confesseth , that upon supposition of god's decree it must needs be that the souldiers should abstaine from the breaking of christ's bones ; yet i nothing doubt , but this action was as as freely performed by them , as any other . for albeit a thing must needs come to passe which god hath decreed to come to passe , yet it is indifferent to come to passe necessarily or freely ; which also god determines according to the nature of the things themselves ; namely that necessary things shall come to passe necessarily , and contingent things contingently . and to this purpose he hath prepared different agents , as aquinas observeth some necessary working necessarily , some contingent working contingently . . still this author harpes upon the same string imputing unto us , that we make the whole circle af a man's life a mere destiny ; his meaning is that we take away all liberty , which is most untrue . as for destiny it is well knowne as before i have shewed that this was the usuall crimination , which the pelagians cast upon the doctrine of st. austin ; and that , because he maintained that grace was not given according unto man's workes . and what was austin's answer hereunto , i have shewed before : si cui voluntatem omnipotentis dei fati nomine placet nuncupari , profanas verborum novitates evitamus , sed de verbis contendere non amamus , if men please to call the will of almighty god by the name of destiny ; we avoid profane novelties of words , but we doe not love to wrangle about words . for god to worke us to faith , to repentance , to every good worke ; yea to the very will and the deed , and that according to his good pleasure ( for which we have expresse scripture , both in the old and new testament , as earst i shewed ) & absolutely to decree this is to make the whole circle of man's like , as touching good courses , but a mere destiny , if we believe this divine ; whereas if this be decreed to be done conditionally , then grace must be conferred according to works , which is as true pelagianisme , as ever dropt from the mouth of pelagius , & which himselfe was sōetimes driven torenounce yet this pelagianisme is the only true divinity , if we believe this author . againe if non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , not any thing cōes to passe , unlesse god almighty will have it come to passe ; whether good or evill ; which was sometimes delivered by austin ; and of late professed by the church of ireland in the dayes of king james , this is to make the whole circle of man's life a mere destiny ; if this author be of any credit so farre as to make his words to be received as oracles ; yet god's word is expresse from the unanimous consent of the apostles , that both herod & pontius-pilate , wih the gentiles and people of israel were gathered together against the holy son of god to do what god's hand & god's counsell had before determined to be done : yet were they gathered together to doe such acts , as more facinorous were never known to be done since the world beganne : and if we believe this author , all this came to passe by meere destiny : and if this be to come to passe by meere destiny , why should we not believe it ? have we better or more compleate testimony for ought throughout the whole booke of god , then for this ? all things that come to passe must needs be the issues of the divine decree ; not only such things as come to passe necessarily , by necessary agents working necessarily ; but even such things also as come to passe freely , by free agents working contingently , and freely , as aquinas hath proved and austin and the church of ireland acknowledged , and the word of god hath justified , and cleare reason demonstrated , for as much as otherwise no future thing could be foreknowne by god from everlasting . for nothing can be from everlasting knowne by god as future , unlesse from everlasting it were future . but without the decree of god passing upon it , no contingent thing can passe out of the condition of a thing merely possible ( such as it is in it's own nature ) into the conditiō of a thing future . so that whosoever denies god's decree to passe upon every thing that comes to passe throughout the world , must therewithall deny the foreknowledge thereof in the mind of god ; let but this authour avoid this one argument if he can ; but he will never answer it while his head is hot●● conceive i have had sufficient experience of his strength already this way , and of the shamefull issue of his adventure therein . he that sayd , non aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , not any thing comes to passe , unlesse the almighty will have it come to passe , sayd also that god so workes in every creature , as without all prejudice to their own motions . and when the apostle said , that in god we move , his meaning was not , that the creature did nothing , or moved not at all . all that followeth is of the same stampe a fardell of unshamefast untruthes . belike when god saith , i will cause them to walke in my statutes and to doe them , god caused them to doe just nothing . in like manner when the holy prophet expostulates with god in the person of the church after this manner , lord why hast thou caused us to erre from thy waies , and hardened our hearts against thy feare , the meaning is , why hast thou caused us to doe just nothing . in like manner when god restraines offences , he doth it not by his lawes , when he promotes vertue he doth it not by rewards ; when he converts sinners he doth it not by sermons : when thousands were converted in one day , it was not by the ministry of peter and his fellow apostles . this authours meaning seemes to be , that unlesse man converts himselfe , it is not done by sermons . but see how he overlasheth ; whē carrying the matter so as if god's decree necessitated and overruled all by our opinion ; yet most absurdly he exempts from this divine decree man's endeavours . and who seeth not that to overrule is to carry the reasonable creature on to doe contrary to his own will and judgment . for unlesse he doth tosse strenuouslly he can prevaile nothing with any sober and indifferent reader . in like sort to necessitate denotes such a motion whereby the creature is carried to doe a thing necessailry but this is not bradwardines opinion , who alone amongst schoole-divines , that i know , useth this phrase of necessitating . for he saith that god necessitates the creature to his free act , & this necessity is but modall , according to that expression of austin necesse est ut aliquid fiat , which austin confessed years agoe to be no impeachment to man's liberty . but because that phrase necessitating , is not only of an harsh sound & apt to be taken in a quite contrary sense to that of the authour 's ; therefore other school-divines , and generally our divines use it not . and how immodest a course is this to thinke to choake us with other mens phrases , and that in a quite contrary sense to that wherein the authour 's take it ? and as if he had very substantially concluded the point , that lawes doe nothing , rules of religion , and mens endeavours do nothing , whereas he hath performed no part either of a philosopher or of a divine in all this , but of a mere trifler ; he proceeds to demand why the one are made , the other prescribed ; why men are encouraged to some things ; and scared from the other . he might as well aske what meant king hezechiah to have any care either of his foode or of taking physicke for those yeares which god told him , he had added unto his life ? what meant paul to tell the master of the ship , that unlesse the mariners were detained in the ship they could not be saved ; what meant some to trust to their swimming , others to boards & brokempeeces of the ship to get to land , when the lord by his angell had told him , that he had given him the lives of all that sailed with him ? in the very daies of cicero the stoicks were acquainted with such like arguments made against their destiny , and knew how readily to answer them by distinguishing between fatalia and confatalia , as appeares in cicero's book de fato , and turnebus his answer to ramus thereupon , more at large . therefore this authour disputes not logically , if he did , the vilenesse of his argumentation would soone appeare according to it's proper colours ; but carrieth the matter all along in rhetoricall flourishes , as if his wit served him for that best , whereat i wonder not a little , that he should forsake that wherein his facultie lieth most , according to the reputation that goes of him , & trust to that wherein his best dexterity hath been accounted but inficete . if our doctrine tends to the subversion of policy , religion and lawes , society & goverment in the next place we expect when he will turne starke atheist and professe as much of the word of god , seing it is manifest our doctrine cheifly is founded upon the word of god even in that which sounds most harsh unto carnall judgment ; namely as touching god's secret providence in evill , this authour not accomodating any answer to any one of those places whereupon our doctrine is grounded . and as for god's providence in working us unto holinesse , his contrary doctrine cannot stand without maintaining that grace is given according unto mens works ; which is expresly contradictory to the word of god. tim : . . tit : . , and opposed by the church of god as the sowre leaven of pelagianisme , from the synod of palestine all along . for aske this authour wherefore god bestowes faith upon one & not upon another , & he hath nothing to answer , but either by denying plainly , that faith is the gift of god ; which hitherto they are not growne so impudent as to deny expresly ; though the remonstrants in their censura censurae come so farre , as to deny that christ merited faith and regeneration for any man ; or they must answer that the reason hereof is , because the one by some act of his or other hath prepared himselfe for the reception of divine influences , the other hath not . or in plaine termes as one hath expressed it , that god doth worke in us credere to believe , modo velimus provided that we will believe . but doth he not worke also the very act of willing ? saint paul saith he doth ; yea every thing that is pleasing in his sight . and how doth he worke in us this will ? is it upon condition , that we will ? this is the absurdity whereunto they are driven , still fetching in a priority of mans act to the divine influence , working us to that which is good , yet most preposterously . for what need is there of influence divine to make us to will if of our selves we will already ? and this also utterly overthrowes god's prescience of things future , which can have no true foundation besides the divine decree . as for mathematici which were banished out of rome , were those divines , or astrologers rather ? if they subjected the event of all things to the influence of the stars , shall austin be blamed or the church of ireland for subjecting all things to the councell of god's will , and that according to the expresse testimony of holy scripture both as touching good and evill ; only with this difference ; good things to his will of working them , evill things to his will of permitting them . as for prosper's saying in the last place , we make no contingent things throughout the world , much lesse the actions of men to come to passe unavoidably , no not upon supposition of god's decree ; but by vertue of his decree both contingent things come to passe contingently , that is with a possibility of not comming to passe ; & free things freely , that is joyned with an active power in the agent , either to suspend his action ; or to doe otherwise ; as well as necessary things come to passe necessarily . this i say we avouch with aquinas , and accordingly with him maintaine the root of contingency to be the effectuall will of god. againe i have often shewed that predestination in the phrase of the antients is only of such things as god decreed to bring to passe by his effection ; notwithstanding this , austin was bold to professe , that not any thing came to passe unlesse god would have it come to passe ; but evill things only by suffering them ; good things by working them , as for compulsion which is prosper's phrase , and which this authour corrupts rendring i● by the urging , which is ambiguous . we deny that man is compelled to acts supernaturall ; much lesse doe we grant compulsion to acts naturall ; such as are all sinfull acts ; yea too connaturall unto him , compared in scripture to sweet morsells which they roule under their tongue , as the booke of iob resembles it . by all which we may judge indifferently both of this authour's sufficiencie and modesty . austin never said that god predestinated any man to sinne . for predestination with them ( as hath been said ) was only of such things as god determined to worke . yet the same austin confidently professeth of those things which come to passe by god's sufferance ( and these we all know to be evill things ) that they come not to passe , unlesse almighty god will have them come to passe , thus farre in answer to this authour's additions to m. hoord's discourse , and concerning the upper and more harsh and rigorous way which m. hoord left unprosecuted . pag. , there is a passage added , a citation out of peter , but it is of the same nature with the rest , & add's no strength to the argument ; and my answer satisfies it as well as the rest . p. . &c. is inserted a representation , how the doctrine of our divines fighteth with god's holinesse . sect. . it fighteth with god's holinesse , and maketh him the principall cause of sin in the greatest number of men i know that the defender of it doth not thinke so . for the maine reason which moved the synod of dort , & some other divines before and since , to bring downe predestination thus low , and begin their reprobation after the fall , was , that they might maintaine a fatall and absolute reprobation of men , and yet avoid this imputation , as doctor twisse hath noted . but what they intended ( for ought that i can see ) they have not compassed . for it followeth evident enough , even from their conclusions too , that of all the sins of reprobates , which are the greatest number by many degrees god is the true and principall authour . two things they say which taken together , methinks , inferre it . . that god of his own will and pleasure hath brought men into an estate , in which they cannot avoid sinne , ly . that he leaveth the reprobate irrecoverably in it . . that god of his own will and pleasure hath brought men into an estate in which they cannot possibly avoid sinne ; that is into the state of originall sinne , which consists of two parts . . the guilt of adam's transgression . . the corruption of nature . in both these they say mankind is interessed , not through the force and efficiency of naturall generation , because we all derive our nature from adam , as our first principle ; but by god's free and voluntary order and impuration . it came not to passe by any naturall meanes ( saith calvin ) that all men fell from salvation , by the fault of our first parem . that all men are held under the guilt of eternall death in the person of one man ; it is the cleare and constant voice of scripture . now this cannot be ascribed to any naturall cause it must therefore come from the wonderfull councell of god. a little after he hath the same againe with as great an emphasis . how is it that so many nations with their children , should be involved in the fall without remedy , but because god would have it so . as roundly doth doctor twisse affirme the same . the guilt of originall sinne is derived unto us only by imputation , the filth only by propagation , and both these only by god's free constitution . a little before he hath these words ; the fault of our nature commeth rom god's free appointment for he doth not cut of any necessity but of his mere will only impute the sinne of adam to us to this purpose he speaketh a great deale more in the same place . to these sayings saint bernard hath the like speaking of adam's sinne he saith , adam's sinne is anothers , because we knew not of it ; and yet ours , because it was through the just though secret judgment of god , reputed ours . and this that they say is agreable to reason . for if we be fallen into the guilt of the first sinne and the corruption of nature , only because we were in adam's loines when he sinned , and derive our being from him , then these two things will follow . . that we stand guilty of all the sin● which adam committed from his fall to his lives end . for we were vertually in his loines , as well after his fall as before ; and in every passage and variation of his life he was still a principle of mankind . but where doe we read that we are guilty of any other of his sins ? to the n●st sin only doth the scripture entitle that sin and misery , which entred into the world and invaded all mankind , as we may see . rom : . . . &c. . that children are guilty of the sins of all their progenitours , especially of their immediate parents . for they were in their loines when they sinned , and more immediatly then in adam's . but children are not guilty of their parents faults , nor obnoxious to their punishments , because they are their children as we may see . exod : . . where god saying that he will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of them hate him ; plainly implyeth that children are not simply charged with their fathers sins but conditionally if they be haters of god , as their fathers were ; if by imitating their wicked parents they become partakers of their sins . in ezech &c. the lord signifieth thus much in his apology against the cavill of the jewes for first he saith , that if a wicked man begetteth a son that seet . his fathers sins , & doth not the like , he shall not die for the iniquiry of his father . this implyeth that the derivation of being from the patent doth not render the child obnoxious to the punishment of the fathers sin , nor consequently to the sinne . for the good child is not obnoxious , and yet the good child is equally in the fathers loines with the bad , and equally receiveth nature and being from him . and then the lord tells them expresly thus much in two propositions . . affirmatively , the soule that sinneth it shall die . and that it may be known that he speaks exclusively , only the soule that sinneth shall dye ; he delivers his mind . . negatively , the son shall not beare the iniquity of the father , neither shall the father beare the iniquity of her sonne &c. our saviour in that woefull speech of his to the pharisees , fulfill ye also the measure of your fathers . behold i send unto you prophets . &c. them ye shall kill and crucifie , that on you may come all the righteous blood . &c. intimateth apparently , that the pharisees were not inheritours of their fathers sins & punishments by birth ; but by the commission and imitation of their fathers sins , they came to inherit both their sins and plagues . miserable would our case be on whom the ends of the world are cōe , if children should be guilty of all their ancestours prevatications . what a world of sins should we be to answer for , personall sins , parents , progenitours sins , to a thousand past generations ? a thing with no reason to be imagined . this is the first thing whereas i am quoted here to give the reason which moved the synod of dort , and some other divines to begin reprobation after the fall , namely this , to avoid the imputation of making god the authour of sinne i doubt this authour hath so long inured himselfe to leasings , that it is growne naturall unto him to deliver untruthes . for first i make no mention ( in that fourth digres of mine in the matter of predestination ) of the synod of dort ; neither indeed were they the objects of my thoughts in this particular . that digression of mine is spent in answering the arguments of those who dispute against massa nondum condita , and stand for massa corrupta , to be the object of election and reprobation . in the first chapter i make answer to mr. elnathan parre in an english tract of his , wherein he deales upon this argument . in the second chap : i deale with others that make choice of the lower way ; because it seemes to be the easiest way , which i expresse in the very words of mr. doctor abbats , bishop of sarisbury ere he died , and i conceived that indeed this motive prevailed with most ; and therefore i thought good so much the more throughly to discusse that . but doe i say they tooke this course to free god from the imputation of sinne ? nothing lesse ; my words are these in the digression cap. . quod plurimos movet , illud est , nimirum quod in sententia illâ de massâ nondum conditâ , omnia sint , ut aiunt , intricata & perplexa , & infinitis difficultatibus involuta ; in hac verò de massâ corruptà predestinationi hominum praestruendâ contra clara sint omnia , & cum scripturarum autoritate , judicioque antiquitatis planissimè consentientia ; where i mention two reasons that moved them to take this way . this , in that opinion concerning the masse of mankind not yet created , all passages are intricate , perplext , and intangled with infinite difficulties ; but in the opinion concerning the masse corrupt , all things are cleare . . this , that in this other opinion , all things are most plainly found to agree both with the authority of scriptures , and with the judgment of antiquity . now after i had endeavoured to discover the insufficiency of this plea in the second and third chapter of that fourth digression in the matter of predestination . in the fourth chapter i propose mine own judgment concerning the true benefit of this way in making the corrupt masse of mankind the object of election and reprobation ; not the judgment of others , as this authour carrieth the matter ; but mine own judgment . for thus i beginne . ad extremum , vis liberè pronuntiem , quid unicè proficiatur ex hac nostrá praedestinationis objecti sententiae temperatione . dicàm igitur quid sentiam . hinc nimirum efficitur ut à lapsu primorum parentum , decreto praedestinationis subjiciendo & subordinando liberemur huic unicè provisum esse , ab istius quasi mediae & temperatioris opinionis assertioribus mihi plusquam probabile , aut verisimile videtur , ne scililicet alias peccatum fieri statueretur , decernente deo , tanquam medium ad fines à deo , in praedestinatione sibi praestitutos accommodatum ; unde etiam quàm author peccati constituendus sit , nullâ solidâ ratione explicari posse videtur . in the last place , will you give me leave freely to professe , what we profic by thus tempering our opinion touching the object of predestination ? i will therefore deliver what i thinke . so that herein i purpose mine own opinion only , not the opinion of others . herehence thus we gaine that we are freed from subjecting and subordinating man's fall unto god's decree of predestination . it seemes to me more then probable or likely , that the maintainers of this middle and temperate openion doe provide only against this inconvenience ; ( that is their way doth indeed provide against this , and against no other inconvenience in my opinion ) to wit , least otherwise the sinne of adam should be said to come to passe god willing it , as a meanes conducing to those ends which god intended in predestination ; from whence it followes as it seemes , that it cannot be explicated by any solid reason that god is not made the authour of sinne . all which is delivered by me as my opinion , conceiving that others thinke so too ; namely not that god is hereby made the authour and principall cause of sinne ; but that the contrary cannot be explicated by any solid reason . now cajetan confesseth as much , namely that in these mysteries , all the distinctions that are used , doe not quietare intellectum , satisfie the understanding ; and therefore he doth captivate his owne into the obedience of faith . and alvarez justifies him in this , professing herein that he speakes doctissimè & piissimè , most learned and holyly . and in a peculiar disputation he maintaines that the mistery of gods providence and predestination , standing with the liberty of our wills , is incomprehensible by us in this world . lastly , consider , this is delivered only of the first sinne of our first parents , which this authour perverts most shamefully , when he avoucheth that i should acknowledge our divines , many of them , to embrace this way to avoyd the imputation of making god the principall cause , not of adams sinne alone , but of sinne in the greatest number of men . and to confesse a truth , if sinne be made the meanes for the procuring of the ends which god intends in predestination , undoubtedly god himselfe should be the authour of sinne . for whosoever intends any end , he , and none but he , must be authour in working the meanes which tend to this end . therefore i said , only that in this case , it seemes that the sinne of adam was intended by god as the meanes ; whereas in truth and upon due consideration it appeares that not the creatures sinne , but gods permission of the creatures sinne , is the meanes whereby god brings to passe his glorious ends . yet not the permission of sinne alone , but joyned together with the pardoning of it , and saving his elect in despight of it , is the compleat meanes ( together with the procuring of christs merits ) for the manifestation of gods glory in the way of mercy ; and in like manner , not the permitting of sinne alone , but joyned with the punishment of it , is the compleat meanes for the manifestation of gods glory in the way of justice vindicative , which in scripture phrase is called , the declaration of his wrath . and whereas i said that hereby it seemed that it could not by any sound reason be manifested , that god was not the authour of sinne , by the first way , this authour avoucheth of the defenders of the lower way which seemes most temperate , that from their conclusions it followeth evidently , that of all the sinnes of reprobates , which are the greatest number by many degrees , god is the true and principall authour . observe , this ( he sayth ) followeth evidently from their conclusions ; and forthwith he tells us that he thinks so , or , to his thinking , it doth so . and why is he not the authour of all the sinnes of the elect also ? whereas originall sinne continues in them also , they carry about them a body of death , and have cause to complaine , of a law in their numbers that rebelleth against the law of their mind , and leadeth them captive to the law of sinne . only there is a principle of spirituall life in them , that renewes their repentance dayly as their sinnes are renewed ; but they looke not to be freed , from sinne as long as they live in this world . but let us examine how well he makes good that which he affirmes of the sinnes of the reprobate , that god is made the authour of them by our doctrine , of reprobation . i find that cornelius a lapide a iesuite shapes calvines doctrine of election and reprobation , this lower way , and imputes unto him that from reprobation , according to his doctrine , in reprobis manat certus & necessarius lapsus in peccata quaelibet , a certaine and necessary falling into all manner of sinnes , doth flow in reprobates . but not from these principles mentioned by this authour , but rather from two other principles . the . that god destinated reprobates to everlasting punishment , as to their end ; and unto sinnes , as to the meanes thereof . the . is that man doth nothing freely in negotio damnationis suae ; but that in all things he is driven of god , as a bowle by him that throwes it , as an hatchet by him that hewes with it , and as clay is moved by the potter , whom he cannot resist . this he imputes , to the defenders of reprobation the lower way , and particularly to calvin . this cornelius denyes not , for ought i know , that by the just judgement of god , though executed according to his will and pleasure , hath brought all men forth into the world in originall sinne , or that any man can be recovered out of it whiles he lives in this world . and as for these two conclusions which he imputes to calvin : as they are false in themselves , so they are as falsely charged upon calvin . haec loquendi ratio , nunquam apud me occurret , finem creationis esse aeternum interitum . calvin expresly denyes , that god creates any man to this end , that he may damne him ; neither is sinne any meanes whereby god brings a man to damnation , but the permission of sinne is gods meanes , and that together with damning for sinne , is the compleate meanes , whereby god brings to passe his end concerning reprobates , which is the manifestation of his glory in the way of vindicative justice , called his wrath upon those reprobates ; and in the way of mercy upon his elect vessells of mercy , whom he hath prepared unto glory , as s. paul plainely teacheth us . the other principle which he obtrudes upon calvin , is as false , and as falsely layd to his charge . in good actions he grants the elect are so caryed to that which is good , as not freely . for he takes liberty to consist in an indifferency to do that which is good , or no ; wherein i willingly confesse he is in an errour ; but that reprobates do not that evill freely , which they do , is no where affirmed by calvin that i know nor by any learned or sober divine . for albeit we all concurre in this with bernard , that no naturall man hath libertatem a peccato , liberty to keep himselfe from sinne : yet that he is carryed into this or that particular sinne , we all confesse it is done freely . and the reason is evident , drawen from the difference betweene gracious actions , and sinfull actions . every gracious action is supernaturall , either as touching the substance of the act , such as are the acts of faith , hope , and love ; or as touching the manner of performing them , such as are all vertuous actions , which are not acceptable unto god , unlesse they flow from the former principles , faith , hope , and love : hereupon there is some colour , that such are not performed freely ; but there is no such colour , as if man were not free in performing actions vitious ; considering that all vitious actions are naturall actions , none of them supernaturall . and surely every naturall man as he hath power to performe any action naturall ; so hath he power to abstaine from it . but proceed we along with our present authour . the first doctrine , that he obtrudes upon us , is such , that i little thought there had beene any difference betweene him and us thereabouts , consisting of two particulars . . the one , that god brings all men forth into the world in the corrupt masse , or in the state of originall sinne . the other , that man , in the state of originall sinne or naturall corruption devoyd of the spirit of regeneration , is under the servitude of sinne , hath no liberty from it . now in these particulars i could not imagine that this authour differed from us , unlesse with pelagius he entertaines an affection to deny originall sinne . for if all men be borne in originall sinne , seing it is god that takes us out of our mothers wombe , and by whom we are brought forth into this world , it cannot be denyed , i should thinke , that god bringeth all men forth into the world , in originall sinne . as for the second , doctor potter confesseth it as the doctrine of the church of england , that man in state of nature hath no liberty from sinne . it is true , this liberty he distinguisheth from that liberty , which is called , liberty from necessity , which he grants to a naturall man ; to whom he denyes the former , which cannot stand without contradiction . for if a man hath no liberty from sinne he must needs sinne . and therefore doctor fulke upon the remish testament doth usually distinguish betweene liberty from sinne , and liberty from coaction . and both arminius and corvinus confesse that by the sinne of adam all men are cast upon a necessity of sinning , though god be ready to deliver us from this necessity of sinning upon reasonable termes to be performed on mans part , which latter doctrine we utterly renounce as manifestly breathing the spirit of pelagius , in a particular generally condemned in the church of god , namely , that grace is conferred according to works or merits . this makes me conceive that this authour carryeth himselfe cunningly in the proposition of this doctrine which he imputes unto us , and that he hath a reach more then every one is aware of . and indeed the phrase he useth of bringing men into an estate , is very harsh , though applyed to adam and eve our first parents , much more applyed to their race and posterity . for albeit adam was created in a better state , and afterwards brought into the state of sinne , and bondage of corruption : yet what sinister judgement moved this authour to impute this unto god , rather then to adam himselfe ? what if god tooke his holy spirit from them upon their fall , whereupon they found themselves naked and were ashamed ? was it not just with god to do so ? doth not m. hord professe , that it were just with god to damne all for originall sinne , if he would ; which doctrine was delivered by this authour in his lectures at magdalen hall , my selfe being an hearer , and a taker of notes from him , upon this very argument . but it may be this is to be accounted amongst the errours of his youth , mistaking bellermine , which now he is to wise to correct in his age . who brings malefactors to the gallowes , is it the judge or sheriffe , and not their sins rather ? yet this , though absurd enough , satisfies him not , but withall he adds that god doth this of his own will and pleasure which phrase is prone to worke a perswasion in the reader , that hereby is sign●●ed that god brought not man in this state in the way of justice for his sinne , but merely of his own will or pleasure ; but what divine of ours was ever known to maintaine any such prodigious assertion ? who can deny but that the judge condemnes a malefactor unto death , & sheriffe takes order to execute him . now if question be made why such a man be hanged , will any wise man referre this to the will and pleasure of the iudge or sheriffe , and not rather to the malefactours deserts ? in like sort it is god that condemnes a man , and inflicts eternall punishment upon him , but is there any colour to say that he doth this of his will and pleasure , and not rather that he doth it in the way of justice provoked thereunto by mens sinnes ? lastly when it is said that god brought him into the state of corruption , who would not thinke that thereby were meant that god was the positive authour of this corruption ? whereas it is apparent that man himselfe averted himselfe voluntarily and freely from god , the unchangable good ; and converted himselfe unto the creature , which is but a changeable good ; and god hereupon taking his spirit from him and that most justly ; left him where he found him , and that irrecoverably , save by the grace of regeneration . yet this phrase is more harsh applyed to the race & posterity of adam , in whose production he hath no other hand , then that which necessarily belongs unto him , as the authour of nature , namely , the quickning of them , and fashioning of them in the wombe , and bringing them forth into the light of this world . if from a leprous sire there springs a leprous fruit , shoud this seeme strange ? we all derive our nature from adam fallen from god , and converted unto the creature , and bereaved of god's spirit most justly for his transgression ; why should it seeme strange then , that our natures should be no better then adam's was after his fall ? it is true the propagation of originall sinne , hath alwaies been accounted of a mysterious nature , as touching the manner of it , and very strange and odde conceits have been entertained hereabouts ; some saying that the soule is derived from the parents a strange conceite even in philosophy not only in peculiar reference unto the soule reasonable ; but generally i find philosophers have entertained peculiar contemplations about datores formarum , in a more generall way . others have thought that the soule is defiled by the body , as a sweet and soveraigne oyle may be corrupted by a naughty boxe ; which is worse then the former , no marvaile that a bodily thing should corrupt that which is bodily ; but that a body should corrupt the soule , the one being corporall the other spirituall is beyond comprehension : farre more probable or rather without question that the soule rather corrupts the body . the positive inclination unto evill is that which hath troubled all and made some conceive that it could not proceed immediatly from god ; for if so , then surely not impura , but pura . others and particularly arimininsis , as remember , that the corruption came from the breath of the serpent , others as johannes bicconius ; that the soule though comming pure from god yet knit unto the body , the lord for the sinne of adam gives it over to the power of satan , who as an universall cause supplies the place of a particular cause in the positive corrupting of it . this at the first seemed unto me as very singular , so a very strange adventure , and that baccorius is a very rare school-man and more used in the arabian philosophy then all the rest , save such as were of his own profession . and that i take to be the reason , why aquinas discourseth as he doth of intellectus agens , making it a●ticulty of the soule ; and durand discourseth in such sort of that argument , as i● he never understood the state of the question ; which i take to proceed frō this that they were so little acquainted with averro's philosophy , wherein zabarell was well seen . and i find him sometimes congratulating his good fortunes in finding that this iohannes bacconius was in some particulars of his mind , he doth not say , he learnt it of him . but i know no school divine comparable to him for depth of philosophicall speculations ; yet am i not of his mind in the point of originall sinne . i willingly confesse it is one of the three points wherein sometimes i perswaded my selfe i never should be satisfied in this world ▪ and that which most troubled me was the positive nature of it . wherin cajetan is thought to discourse strangely also , even to the palate of pontificians ; and aquinas his definit on of it , calling it , habitus corruptus ; hath cost me no small paines in the discussion thereof . at length i conceive there is no greate cause of so much pudder to be made about it , save that certaine prejudices which we lay for grounds doe cast us there upon . the harmony of man's nature in all parts , excepting it's due subjection unto god , i willingly confesse was naturall , but whether it did profluere ex principiis naturae , either specificae , or individualis , or was caused and maintained while adam stood in his integrity by the speciall hand of god's providence ; as some school-men professe finding the difficultie of maintaining the former ( which yet might be consequent naturally to it 's due subjection unto god for ought i see yet to the contrary ) i dispute not . but as for it's due subjection unto god in faith and love , and such a love as joyned with the contempt of it selfe ; i have reason to conceive that this was not naturall , as flowing from the principles of nature either specificall or individuall , though this latter i heard sometimes maintained publiquely in the university , but rather wrought in man in his creation by vertue of supernaturall grace , and the holy ghost's residence in him ; which supernaturall grace , and holy ghost's residence had been naturall unto all his posterity , had adam continued in his integrity . i call it naturall in as much as it had descended unto all his posterity , after the manner of an inheritance naturall . but adam by his transgression forfeited this blessed condition , not to himselfe only , but to all his posterity , being justly bereaved of the spirit of god , and left by the lord where he found him ; averted à bono incommutabili , and converted ad bonum communicabile in an inordinate manner , which conversion to the creature is positive , and not evill in it selfe , but as it is joyned with aversion from god ; & this makes it an inordinate conversion to the creature , not for gods sake , that it is not out of the love of god to the contempt of himselfe , which is the character of a child of god but out of the love of himselfe to the contept of god , which is the charecter of a child of this this world . so that as originall righteousnes whereunto we are restored in part by the grace of regeneration , transcends all motall vertues ; so originall sin transcends all morall vices & is found in the most vertuous amongst heathen men ( of whom some have been very renowned in this kind , & great masters of their passions ) as well as amongst the most vicious . and it is hard to resolve who have been greatest enimies to the truth of god and holinesse ; and generally to the holy waies of god , whether the most vertuous or the most vitious among heathen men . i come to his second position , which he casts upon us , as dissenting therein from himselfe ; and it is this , that god leaves the reprobates irrecoverably in it . now on this point i would gladly know his contrary tenet in what sense it proceeds , namely , that reprobates are not left irrecoverably in originall sinne , or in such state wherein they cannot avoid sinne . for i cannot comprehend his meaning herein . but it was wont to be said of africa that , semper aliquid apportat novi , alwaies it brings forth some new monster in course of nature . so men of this authour's spirit : are alwaies bringing forth some new monster in divinity . for what thinks he ? was ever any reprobate recovered out of originall sin ? nay was ever any child of god recovered out of it while he lived upon the face of the earth ? or doth he thinke himselfe recovered out of it , or is it in his power to avoid it ? perhaps he will say though he cannot avoid sin originall , yet he can avoid sin actuall ; and so not only the children of god may if they will , but even reprobates also . but what ? may they avoid all sinne , or some only ? what one of our divines denies that a reprobate hath power to avoid fornication ? we see heathens doe avoid : it or stealth ? for heathens doe so . or murther ? even heathens have been found very morall and that generally . but this we say ; all men in the state of nature , whether they doe good as touching the substance of the act ; yet they doe it not in a gracious manner ; or whether they abstaine from that which is evill , they doe not abstaine from it in a gracious manner ; nor can doe . nay since the fall of adam , who ever lived free from sinne , the son of god only excepted ? doth notholy paul professe of himselfe saying , i doe not the good that i would , but the evill that i would not , that doe i. to will is present with me , but i find not to performe : hat which is good . and if god may justly damne all for sinne originall as mr. hoord affirmes , why may not god leave all irrecoverably in it ; and that justly ? so that herein i find my selfe in a brake , not can devise with my selfe in what tollerable or colourable sense he can affirme , that reprobates are not left irrecoverably in the state of originall sinne ; or in such a state , in which they cannot avoid sinne ; i say in what sense he can deliver this different from us , i cannot devise . for we willingly grant that there is no particular actuall sinne from which a reprobate hath not power to abstaine , though he cannot abstaine from it in a gracious manner without grace , and that grace we account the grace of regeneration ; which is a supernaturall principle of gracious actions , both as touching faith in god , and the love of god , to the contempt of our selves . now i guesse his meaning is , that no reprobate is so left and abandoned in originall sinne , but that god gives him grace to believe if he will , to repent if he will , to love god if he will , & that above all things . i guesse , i say , that this is his meaning ; but i would have him expresse it , that i might see it under his hand . for till then i find noe apparent difference between him & us , as touching these two principles from whence he deduceth , that god is thereby made the principall cause of sin in the greatest number of men . and if once he deliver himselfe fairely , and comes to this , the issue of the question to be debated between us will be faire and cleare ; namely about this their universall grace , whether all men elect and reprobate by vertue of supernaturall grace given unto them , have power to beleive if they will , repent if they will. and against this i will dispute after this manner . first in all this there is no difference between us excepting that this power is said to be wrought in man by supernaturall grace . for we say with austin deo credere , & ab amore temporalium ad divina praecepta servanda se convertere , omnes possunt si velint . all men can believe god , if they will ; and from the love of temporall things convert themselves to the keeping of god's commandements if they will. for all the moment of inclining a man to workes of morallity lyeth in the will of man. and therefore marke what followes in austin , sed praeparatur voluntas à domino ( supple ut velit ) tantumque augetur munere charitatis ut possit . but the will is prepard by the lord ( to wit to make it willing ) and so much augmented by the gift of charity as to make it able . and i prove , that looke what i supply is according unto austin interpreting that of the apostle , neque volentis , neque currentis , sed miserentis dei ; it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth but of god that sheweth mercy . for he shewes ; that the whole both to will and run , is to be ascribed unto god , qui hominis voluntatem bonam & praeparat adjuvandam , & adjuvat praeparatam ; who both prepares the good will of man that after he may helpe it , and helpes it being once prepared ; where plainly man swilling that , which is good , is made the fruit of god's preparing it ; but because there is in man a will of the flesh , resisting this will of the spirit ; therefore there is need not of grace preparing only , but of grace adjuvant and helping also , to enable it to doe what it hath a will unto , whence immediatly followeth , running as well as willing . and these two graces praeparant , and adjuvant , are afterward called by the names of grace prevenient , and subsequent , thus ; nolentem praevenit ut velit , volentem subsequitur ne frustra velit . him that is unwilling the lord preventeth to make him willing , and willing he followeth him that he may not will in vaine . and that this double grace is required by reason of the reluctancy between the flesh and the spirit , i prove out of the same austin writing thus , prima gratiâ est , quâ fit ut habeat homo justitiam si velit ; secunda ergo plus potest , quâ etiam fit ut velit , & tantum velit tantoque ardore diligat , ut carnis voluntatem contraria concupiscentem voluntate spiritus vincat . the first grace is that whereby it comes to passe that a man is righteous if he will ; the second grace therefore is of more power , whereby it comes to passe also that a man doth will , and that so resolutely , and with such fervency loveth ( compare this with that of austin de gen : contrae manich : lib. . cap : . ) that by the will of the spirit , he overcommeth the will of the flesh fighting against it . so that a power to doe good if a man will is one thing ; to will that which is good is another thing ; and lastly to be able to doe that which it wills is a third thing ; yet both these two last are comprehended under sic velle , which austin calls tantum augeri munere charitatis , to have the gift of charity so much increased in him , as thus ; tantum spiritu sancto accenditur voluntas eorum ut ideo possint , quta sic velint , ideo sic velint , quia deus sic operatur , ut velint . the will of god's children is so inflāed by the holy ghost , that therefore they are able to do good , because they have a will to it in such a manner ( that is with such fervency and eagernes ) therefore they have a will to it in such a manner , because god so workes , as to make them willing ; to wit , in such a manner . secondly we say that to believe if a man will , to repent if he will is to be accounted nature , rather then grace , which i prove thus . supernaturall grace is not inferiour to a morall vertue , but a morall vertue doth more then leave a man indifferent to doe vertuously if he will ; for it inclines the will to vertuous courses only , and not vitious ; like as vice inclines the will only to vicious courses , and not to vertuous ; how much more doth supernaturall grace not leave a man indifferent to doe good if he will ; but inclines the will only to such things as are pleasing unto god , and not to things displeasing unto him . againe to have power to believe if we will , is to have power to have faith if we will ; but this austin hath expressely professed to belong to the nature of man , in distinctio fró the grace of the faithfull . posse fidē habere , sicut posse charitatē habere naturae est heminū ; fidē habere , sicut charitatē habere , gratiaeest fideliū . the nature of man makes him to have power , to have faith , to have charity ; but the grace of the faithfull makes a man to have faith , to have charity . it may be objected out of the former place taken out of aust : decor : & grat : c. , that habere justitiam si velit , is , gratia prima ; to be righteous if he will is the first grace . i answer , austin there speakes of the grace that adam had before his fall , which was this , posse si velit to abstaine from eating the forbidden fruit . and this first grace is called grace in this respect , that there was in adam no flesh lusting against the spirit ; so that if adam had but a will to abstaine , he should have no cause to complaine as saint paul doth , to will is present with me , but i find no meanes to performe that which is good ; now such a posse si velit is not found in any man now a daies , no not in the regenerate . but all men that have a will to doe good by the grace of god , have withall a posse secundum quid , a power in part a weake power ; but this is not sufficient to denominate them simply able to doe that which is good ; unlesse the love of god be increased in them , so as to overcome the will of the flesh lusting against the spirit , as i have represented austin thus expounding it . thirdly whether tends this , that all men have power to believe if they will , to repent if they will ? but to maintaine that faith and repentance are not the gifts of god , bestowed of his free grace on whom he will ; but that they are the workes of man's free will , directly contradictory to the word of god expresly professing that faith is the gift of god , and that not of our selves . so repentance is the gift of god ; yea that it is god who worketh in us that which is pleasing in his sight through jesus christ . heb : . yea both the will and the deed , and that of his good pleasure . ly . if all reprobates have power to believe and repent if they will , and so consequently to persevere if they will ; how comes it to passe that not one of them doth believe , repent , and persevere ; seing it is confest among philosophers that such contingents as depend upon the free will of man , are equally propendent on either side to passe as often one way , as the other . but proceed we along with this authour . . here he grants expresly that the state he speakes of is the state of originall sin ; in which state we acknowledge that man hath not libertatem à peccato , freedome from sinne . and doctor potter towards the end of his answer to charity mistaken confesseth it to be the doctrine of the church of england . yet doe not we say , but that it is in the power of any man to abstaine from any particular sinne , it being but a naturall act , and a man hath free power to performe any naturall act or to abstaine from it ; so farre forth as to become very vertuous , as much as any man among the heathen , many of whom have been renowned for vertuous conversation . calvin in the passages here alleadged hath nothing concerning , either the guilt of adam's transgression passing upon his posterity , or the corruption derived therehence unto them ; but only of their falling from eternall salvation in the one ; that all are enthralled to eternall death in the other ; and that adam's fall hath enwrapped all in eternall death in the third . my passages quoted , and related out of my vindiciae are more to the purpose : i say indeed the guilt of adam's transgression is derived unto us , that is to our persons by imputation ; but that very sinne of adam was the sin of our natures , as austin speaks . non modo natura facta est peccatrix , sed & genuit peccatores . not only our humane nature became a sinner , but also begat sinners . and accordingly it is justly imputed unto our persons , otherwise how could it be just with god to condemne any man for originall sinne ; which yet is expresly acknowledged by mr. hoord . and the apostle saith expresly , that in adam all have sinned . and austin gives the reason of it . de adamo omnes peccatum originale trahunt , quia omnes unus fuerunt . all draw originall sinne from adam , because all were that one . so that i have noe cause to doubt but this authour is of the same opinion untill i find him to avouch the contrary ; and so much the rather because he finds it is the opinion of bernard also . and that the corruption consequent is derived to us only by propagation , i thinke it is without doubt amongst all , who concurre not with pelagius in maintaining that it is derived unto us by imitation , and so only . yet notwithstanding it cannot be denied , but that god might have caused the punishment of adam's sinne to rest upon himselfe only , and immediately destroyed him and created another , and propagated mankind from him . yea supposing his ordinance of propagating mankind from him , yet god of his mercy might have derived others from him of his mere grace indued with the holy ghost , if it had pleased him ; like as whom he justly damnes for sinne , he might have caused them to have lived one yeare or more longer , and in that time bestowed the spirit of grace upon them to break off their sins by repentance , and from grace translated into glory . as for the reasons here mentioned by mr. mason to justifie that which my selfe and others have delivered on the former point , i have noe cause to justifie , because they proceed from a false ground , supposing that the reason of this imputation of adam's sinne , and propagation of his corruption unto all his posterity , is merely built upon this foundation that we were in adam's loynes when he sinned , which is untrue . in his first reason he doth miserably overlash ; for we could not be guilty of all the sinnes which were committed by adam from his fall to his lifes end , no not upon the ground whereon this authour builds ; so long we were not in his ioynes , nor any longer then till he begat seth ; for from seth sprang noah , and we all from him . neither is it credible that adam continued to beget children till the last yeare , and month , and day of his life . indeed we no where read that we are guilty of any other of his sinnes , besides the first ; the reason whereof shall be given in the next place . therefore i say , in answer unto them both , that the ground of imputing adams sinne unto his posterity , is not onely because we were in adams ioynes , but because the first sinne of adam was it , that bereaved his nature of gods image ; and so brought corruption upon himselfe by an aversion from the creator and unchangable good , and conversion unto the creature , wherein the lord left him , bereaving him of his spirit ; and this nature , by this sinne alone so corrupt , is the fountaine of all our natures ; like as if adam had stood , of the same fountaine of integrity we had all received incorrupt natures ; so that the like cannot be said of any other sinne of adam afterwards committed by him , nor of the sinne of any other our progenitours succeding him . for as for the wicked , they have no such spirit of god to loose ; and as for the godly , they have indeed the spirit of god , but so as not to be taken from them by the sinnes committed by them , any more then it was from david upon the committing of so foule sinnes in the matter of uriah ; neither do any godly parents propagate their state of grace to their posterity . and aquinas is so bold hereupon as to professe , that , impossibile est , quod aliqua peccata parentum proximorum , vel etiam primi parentis praeter primum , per originem traducantur . it is impossible that the sinnes of our immediate parents , or of our first parents , besides the first , should be derived unto posterity by propagation . for , sayth he , a man generates the same with himselfe in kinde only ; not in individuall . and therefore those things , which pertaine to him as a particular person , as acts personall , he doth not propagate unto his children . now to the nature of man , somthing may pertain naturally , somthing by the gift of grace . and this originall righteousnesse as a gift of grace was bestowed on the whole nature of mankind in our first parents , which adam lost by his first sinne ; so that like as originall righteousnesse had beene propagated to posterity together with the humane nature , so also the opposite inordination . but as for other actuall sinnes , either of our first parents , or of others , they do not corrupt the nature of man , as touching that which pertaines to nature , but as touching that which pertaines to his person ; therefore other sinnes are not propagated unto posterity . and this reason which aquinas gives , was long before given by anselme , de conceptu virginali & originali peccato , cap. . section . . they say that god hath immutably decreed to leave the farre greatest part of mankind in this impotent condition irrecoverab●ely , and to afford them no power and ability sufficient to make them rise out of sinne to newnesse of life ; and this decree he executeth in time : and both these he doth out of his only will and pleasure . of this proposition there be three branches . god decreeth to leave them . . he doth leave them . . he doth both out of his alone pleasure . god , say they , hath decreed to leave them without sufficient grace , and consequently under an everlasting necessity of sinning . this is the very helen which they sight for , the maine act of that absolute reprobation , which with joynt consent and endeavour they labour to maintaine . most of them cast their reprobation into two acts ; a negative , which is a peremptory denyall of grace and glory to some men lying in the fall ; and a positive which they say is a preordination of the men thus left , to the eternall torments of hell . others among them define reprobation by an act meerely negative , and call it ( non electionem , decretum quo statuit non eo usque misereri . ) thes our divines in their suffrage define ; and in their explication of the definition which they give , they say that the proper acts of reprobation , as it standeth opposed to election , are no other then a denyall of that same glory and grace , which are prepared in the decree of election for the sonnes of god. but in this they all agree , that by the decree of reprobation , grace necessary for the avoyding of sinne , is flatly denyed to reprobates . and if at any time we heare them say , that god hath gratified reprobates with some grace , ( for so sayth walaeus , reprobates are left , under the common providence of god , and consequently under some common endowments . and our divines in the synod say , reprobates though they are not elected , yet receive many of gods graces ; ) they are to be understood of such graces and gifts as are insufficient to make them avoyd sinne , as we may see in these two cited places , and many more . god doth actually , according to his eternall and unchangeable decree , leave the reprobates in their severall times and generations without his grace , under a necessity of finall sinne and impenitency . this is the second branch of that second proposition . and this they must needs say ; for gods decrees cannot be frustrated ; what he purposed before time , without faile he doth in time . i shall not need therefore to prove , that they say so ; neverthelesse to let it be seene how positively and categorically they say so , i will give an instance or two . the divines of geneva at the synod , among their theses of reprobation , have this for one , those whom god hath reprobated , out of the same will by which he hath rejected them either be calleth not at all , or being called he reneweth not throughly by the spirit of regeneration , ingraftcth not into christ mystically , nor justifieth &c like to this is the speech of lubbert , who speaking of reprobates sayth ; to them either he revealeth not the way of salvation , or giveth not faith and regeneration ; but leaveth them in sinne and misery . the same authour speaking against the position of the remonstrants ( viz : that god doth supply to all men sufficient and necessary meanes of salvation , with an intention of saving them ) letteth downe this anti●hesis , god doth not administer to all men meanes needfull and sufficient to salvation , and that with an intention of saving them . and to this his antithesis polyander , wal●us , and thyscus three other professours of divinity in the lowcountryes did set their hands . it is a usuall course with this authour to lay unto our charge , that god hath immutably decreed this or that ; so that if we had said that all this were decreed by god not immutably , but mutably , we should not incurre the danger of his displeasure so immutably , and unavoydably as we do . now to decree not immutably , but mutably , is a phrase that i no where meet with , but among men of this authours spirit ; the congruity whereof i willingly professe , is so farre from mine understanding , as no phrase more . if they would in the name of common sense expound themselves unto us , then we should soone consider what answer we are to give in . we willingly professe , that all gods decrees are unchangeable , but of decreeing a thing unchangeably , not any of our divines discourse , that i know of . we say that god decreeth some things to come to passe necessarily , and some things to come to passe contingently ; so doth aquinas : and we understand his language right well , and approve his doctrine in this particular . we willingly confesse that as god hath chosen some , whom he meanes to deliver from that bondage of sinne , and satan , whereinto all are cast by the transgression of adam . and how to deliver them ? surely by bestowing the spirit of grace , and regeneration upon them , so to open their eyes and bring them out of darkenesse into light , and from the power of satan unto god ; in few words by bestowing faith and repentance upon them . all others he hath from everlasting determined not to shew the like grace and favour unto . for we see by experience that to many he gives not faith and repentance . and looke how he carryeth himselfe towards any persons in time , after the same manner he determined to carry himselfe from everlasting . and the scripture expresly tels us that even of them that are called , but few are chosen ; and consequently the number of reprobates must needs be farre greater , then the number of the elect . now as many as god hath decreed to deny faith and repentance unto , we hold it impossibile for them , upon this supposition , to be recovered out of the bondage of sinne and satan ; because the scripture in divers places expresly tells us , that faith is the gift of god , repentance is the gift of god ; and therefore to whomsoever he will not be so gracious , as to give faith , and repentance , we judge it a thing impossible upon this supposition , that any of them should believe , should repent . and more then this , as touching every particular here delivered , we account it so apparently , testified in holy scripture , that we wonder not a little with what face this authour can deny it . nay , we verily believe that he belives all these as well as we . and the true point of substantiall difference betweene us is conceled by him all along , which is an argument of no ingenuity ; but yet i beare with him in following lysanders counsell , when the lyons skin will not hold out , to peece it out with a fox skin ; least otherwise his pelagian tenet would be discovered in a most palpable and grosse manner . for undoubtedly he believes that faith is the gift of god ; as also that it is impossible , that they should believe , to whom god will not give faith . but his tenet is , that god is ready and willing to give faith to all , not absolutely , but conditionally ; to wit , in case they make themselves fit for it , by performing somewhat on their parts . now this is as good as in expresse termes to professe , that grace is conferred according to merits , or according unto workes : for betweene works and merits in this controversy there is no difference , as bellarmine acknowledgeth ; and in the epistle of prosper to austin they are taken promiscuously , as of the same force and signification . now this doctrine is expresly contradictory to the word of god. god hath saved us and called us with an holy calling not according to our owne workes but according to his owne purpose and grace . the like we have , tit. . . and in like manner this doctrine hat : beene condemned in the church of god , as the sowre leaven of pelagianisme , from the synod of palestine above yeares agoe all along ; and pelagius himselfe was driven to subscribe to the canons of that synod of palestine , wherein anathema was pronounced upon them , that do , or shall maintaine , that grace is conferred according unto workes . if god hath decreed not to bestow faith upon a man , if he hath not decreed to bestow upon him the gift of charity , it is impossible , that any worke can be done by such a one proceeding from faith and love , and consequently such a one hath no liberty from sinne , and that no such liberty is found in a naturall man , in an unregenerate , is the doctrine of our church by d. potters confession , a cathedrall divine , i do not say by the constant doctrine of d. fulke in his answer to the rhemish testament , and if no liberty from sinne be found in such a one , it followes that such a one remaines under a necessity of sinning , not that every sinne , whether of lying , stealing , whoring , murther , or in any other kind is necessarily committed by him ; for a naturall man may be as morall as any heathen hath beene , many of whom have beene very famous and renowned in the world for their morality ; but whether they are exercised in vertuous actions , or in abstaining from actions vicious , yet still they sinne , forasmuch as they neither performe the one , nor abstaine from the other in a gracious manner , out of faith and love . and therefore austin was somewhere bold to stile them splendida peccata glorious sinnes . for novimus non officiis sed finibus discernendas esse virtutes , vertues are to be discerned not by their offices , but by their ends . the helen we fight for is nothing but the word of god , and the truth manifestly contained therein ; namely concerning the prerogative of his grace , as effectuall to every good worke , and most freely given to some and denyed to others , not according to mens workes , according to that of s. paul god hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will , he hardneth . this is a part of gods soveraignty ; and it stands all true subjects upon to maintaine the lawfull soveraignty of their princes ; how much more doth it become the creature to stand for the lawfull prerogative and soveraignty of his creator , especially when he proceeds herein according to the tenour of gods word , cleare reason and the unanimous consent of all the orthodoxe in the church of god clearely opposing pelagius herein from the synod of palestine . yeares agoe to this day . the difference of opinions here feigned by him about the point of reprobation , amongst our divines is like the feigning of a knot in a bulrush . for what is a peremptory denying of grace and glory to some men lying in the fall , other then a denyall of that grace and glory , which is prepared in the decree of election to the sonnes of god , though indeed neither of them make it a denyall , which is done in time , but rather gods decree to deny it . for do not the latter divines maintaine it to be peremptory , as well as the former ? for what difference doth he devise between a flat denyall , and a peremptory denyall ; and as for the latter decree belonging to reprobation here mentioned , namely a preordination of the man thus left to the torments of hell do not the latter divines acknowledge this decree to belong to reprobation also ? only they professe that god preordaines none to eternall torments in hell but for their sinnes actuall as well as originall , of as many as live to ripenesse of age . now i would faine know what divine of ours maintaines the contrary . . our divines in saying , reprobation is , decretum quo statuit non misereri do manifest , that not denying grace , but the decree of denying it , is reprobation . walaeus speaketh of no common endowments , though that be a truth , which here is attributed unto them ; else how should they be called common endowments . . if he decrees to leave reprobates without grace , and consequently under that necessity of sinning into which all are cast by the sinne of adam ; it is nothing strange , i thinke that god should accordingly leave them therein ; though in a different manner , the lord prostituting some to their own lost's and to the power of satan , more then others , and making some even by the ministery of the gospell , proficere ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quo mitius puniantur ; as austin some where speaketh . if gods decree cannot be frustrated , as here is avouched ; i wonder he should charge us with teaching , that god decreeth this , or that immutably . for if he should change any of his decrees , they should undoubtedly be frustrated . indeed we do not say , that god decrees hypothetically to give grace , to wit upon condition , that men will make themselves fit for it , and for failing herein to deny them grace . and i am very glad to observe so good correspondence in the suffrages of protestant divines in the synod of dort , and our english also with them . sect : . . god both decreeth and executeth this leaving of men to themselves , of his alone absolute will and pleasure , this is the third branch that they say so ; witnesse the suffrage of our english divines . we affirme that this non election is founded in the most free pleasure of god. and that no man lying in the fall is past over by the meere will of god , is numbred by the same divines among the heterodox positions ; to this purpose also speake the palatinate ministers . the cause of reprobation is the most free and just will of god. that god passeth over some and denyeth them the grace of the gospell , the cause is the same free pleasure of god. thus the divines of hessen ; god decreed to leave some in the fall , of his own good pleasure ; the proofe of this they fetch from the execution of this decree in time . god doth in time leave some of mankind fallen , and doth not bestow upon them meanes necessary to beleive &c. and this out of his most free pleasure ; this they joyntly affirme and prove it by this reason especially . all men , were lookt on as sinners . if sinne therefore were the cause , that moved god to reprobate , he should have reprobated or rejected all ; but he did not reprobate all ; therefore for sinne he reprobated none , but for his owne pleasure , in which we must rest wthout seeking any other cause . . now from these two things layd together , viz. . that god did bring men into a necessity of sinning . . that he hath left the reprobates under this necessity , it will follow that he is the authour of the reprobates sinnes . . because ( causae causae est causa causati ) the cause of a cause is the cause of its effect ( if there be a necessary subordination betweene the causes and the effect ) whether it be a cause by acts negative , or positive . but god is the cheife or sole cause ( by their doctrine ) of that , which is the necessary and immediate cause of the sinnes of reprobates , namely their impotency and want of supernaturall grace ; therefore he is ( by the same doctrine ) the true and proper cause of their sinnes . . because removens prohibens , that which withdraweth and withholdeth a thing , which being present would hinder an event , is the cause of that event . as for example he that cutteth a string in which a stone hangs , is the cause of the falling of that stone ; and he that withdraweth a pillar which being put to uphold a house ; is the true cause in mens account of the falling of that house . but god by their opinion withholdeth from reprobates that power , which being granted them , might keep thē from falling into sinne : therefore he becometh a true morall cause of their sinnes , in whose power it is that a thing be not done , to him it is imputed , when it is done , sayth tertullian , in cuius manu est quid ne fiat , ei deputatur , cum iam fit . it will not suffice to say that god by withholding grace from reprobates becometh only an accidentall , not a proper and direct cause of their sinnes . for a cause is then only accidentall in relation to the effect , when the effect is beside the intention and expectation of the cause . for example ; digging in a feild is then an accidentall cause of the finding a bag of gold , when that event is neither expected not intended by the husbandman in digging ; but when the event is lookt for , and aymed at , then the cause ( though it be the cause only by withholding the impediment ) is not accidentall . as a pilot who withholdeth his care and skill from a ship in a storme ; foreseeing that by his neglect the ship will be drowned ; is not to be reputed an accidentall , but a direct , and proper cause of the losse of this ship . this being so it followeth that god by this act and decree of removing and detaining grace necessary to the avoyding of sinne , from reprobates , not as one ignorant and carelesse what will or shall follow , but knowing infallibly what mischeife will follow , and determining precisely that which doth follow , viz : their impenitency and damnation , becomes the proper and direct cause of their sinnes . that god of his meere pleasure sheweth mercy on some , and hardeneth others is the expresse word of god. therefore he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . now to shew mercy is to give the grace of faith and obedience , as appeares by the opposition of it to obduration , which is such as whereupon followeth disobedience ; as appeares by the objection following hereupon ; thou wilt say then why doth yet cōplaine , for who hath resisted his will ? now god complaineth of nothing but disobedience . againe to give faith , is to shew mercy . for to have faith is to obtaine mercy . heretofore ye have not believed , but now have obtained mercy through their unbeliefe . where to believe & to obtaine mercy are made equipollent , & of the same signification . and in reason , if god did deny faith , because of some unpreparednesse in the creature , then god did expect that the creature should first prepare himselfe , and make himselfe fit for faith , that so god might bestow it upon him ; & so grace should be conferr'd according to workes ; which is contradictious to expresse testimony of holy scripture , testifying that god hath saved us & called us with an holy calling , not according to our workes but according to his owne purpose and grace ; & all along hath beene condened in the church of god for pelagianisme . thus we have beene entertained with a discourse containing nothing , but the opinion of our divines , which none of us deny : yet in the proposing hereof he hath wasted a whole leafe and more now he comes to his argument drawen from these two layd together . . that god did bring men into a necessity of sinning . . that he hath left the reprobates under this necessity . hence he concludes that god is the author of the reprobates sins ; but this we utterly deny . therefore this he undertakes to prove by two reasons . . because the cause of the cause is the cause of its effect , if there be a necessary subordination betweene the causes and the effect . but god is the cheife or sole cause ( by their doctrine ) of that which is the necessary and immediate cause of the sinnes of reprobates , namely their impotency and want of supernaturall grace . for answer whereunto i say , first begining with the minor . . that the want of supernaturall grace is not the immediate cause of the sinnes of reprobates , nor the cheife cause ; much lesse the sole cause . and i prove it evidently . let instance be given in any sinne committed by a reprobate ; let it be the sinne of murther , or of fornication , or of theft , or of lying ! for if it were , then every reprobate should be guilty of murther , of fornication , of lying , of stealing for , positâ causâ principali & immediatâ ponitur effectus ; where a principall and immediate cause doth exist , there the effect must needs exist . but it is apparent , that albeit every reprobate doth want supernaturall grace , yet every reprobate is not guilty of murther , of fornication , lying , and stealing . secondly , if the want of supernaturall grace were the immediate and principall cause of all the sinnes of reprobates ; then not only every reprobate should be guilty of committing all the sinnes formerly mentioned , but at all times every one of these sinnes should be committed by them ; because at all times they want supernaturall grace . and the truth is , every one of these sinnes may be abstained from without supernaturall grace , and for carnall respects : only without supernaturall grace they cannot be abstained from , in a gracious manner ; as namely out of faith in god , and love to god. he that hath neither faith nor love cannot abstaine from these vile courses out of faith and love . in like sort , heathen men in their generations have beene exceeding vertuous , according to the worlds account of vertue , in moderating their passions , and ordering their conversation aright one towards another ; and all this hath beene performed by them without supernaturall grace . thirdly , the immediate cause of all their sinnes rather of the two , is their naturall corruption , whereby they are habitually turned away from god ; and converted unto the creature in an inordinate manner . like as the immediate cause actionis laesae , of a naturall function of the body imperfect , is the disease or infirmity that hath seised upon some part of the body ; and the physitian who is able to cure it , and will not ; is the cause why it continueth uncured : but no wise man will say , he is the cause why this or that member in a sicke mans body doth not performe its operation as it should . in like manner as touching the vicious actions of the soule , the want of supernaturall grace is the cause , why those vicious actions continue uncured , because god alone by his grace can cure them ; but no sober man that is well in his wits , should say that is the cause of vicious actions ; but acknowledge rather the corruption thereof to be the cause of these vicious actions . and indeed all morall philosophy referres the cause of every vicious action , unto the vicious habit depraving the will , and inclining it to vicious courses . fourthly , yet farther to represent the wildnesse of this authours discourse . the vicious habit it selfe is not the sole cause ; no nor the principall and immediate cause of a vicious action in particular . for if it were , then that particular vicious action should alwayes be committed by it ; so that an impure person should alwayes commit fornication ; a lyar should alwayes lye ; a theife should alwayes steale ; a murtheret should alwayes commit murther . for it is a rule generally received , that the immediate and principall cause being existent , the effect must needs exist also . and indeed albeit , habits , whether good or evill , do worke after the manner of nature inclining and swaying the will to the accomplishment of them ; yet the will of man being a free , and not necessary agent , proceeds not to worke , but according unto judgement and occasions and opportunityes from without . and albeit a purser that maintaine himselfe by robbery hath a faire opportunity offered him to advantage himselfe to take a purse ; yet if upon consideration he finds himselfe too weake to goe through with it , or that he cannot do it safely , he will forbeare . for albeit a vicious habit doth naturally , and necessarily incline him to a naughty end , yet in the choice of the meanes conducing to this end , he is free . how much more plainely doth it appeare , that the want of supernaturall grace is farre off from being either the sole cause , or the immediate , or the principall cause of any sinne committed by a reprobate . rather of the two the intestine corruption of the reprobate is the cause of his sinnes , and the want of grace is the cause why this corruption is not cured . now albeit a physitian may sinne in not curing a sicke person , when it lyes in his power to cure him : for we are in charity bound to do to others , as we would have others do unto us ; yet god is bound to none , i will shew mercy on whom i will shew mercy , and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion . . observe how sluttishly he carryeth himselfe in the next reason taken from removens prohibens . his rule proceeds both of withdrawing and withholding a thing which being present would hinder an event . but he gives instance only in withdrawing , as in cutting a string whereon a stone● hangs ; which who so doth , is the cause of the falling of the stone : and in withdrawing a pillar upholding an house , which who so doth , is the cause of the fall of that house : which is most true in naturall things , yet not the immediate cause , that is to be referred to the nature of the stone , and house ; which being heavy things do naturally move downwards . but this authour contents not himselfe with conforming the condition of agents voluntary to the conditions of agents naturall and necessary ; but changeth his termes also , and puts the phrass of withdrawing , into the place of the former phrase , which was withholding . now it is true god withholds that grace from reprobates , which he gives to his elect ; but he withdrawes and takes no inward grace from them . yet this phrase of withholding is very improper ; for it signifies a forcible restraint of that which was going ; whereas god being master of his owne grace , gives it to whom he will , and denyes it to whom he will ; for he is bound to none . and is it not lawfull for him to doe what he will with his owne ? but albeit he carry himselfe very sluttishly in opposing us , yet i willingly confesse he carryeth the matter very clearely in contradicting himselfe ; as when he concludeth , that god in withholding that power ( that is that grace ) which would keep them from sinne ( for this alone is our tenet ) hereby becomes a true morall cause of their sinne . i say , herein he contradicts himselfe very handsomely . for himselfe confesseth that god could hinder any man from sinne , but he doth not : and doth it not herehence evidently follow , that god hereby becomes the authour of sinne , yea of every sinne that is committed in the world ? but i see what he will reply by the face of his discourse , namely this ; he sayth not that god by withholding that grace which would keep him from sinne , becomes the authour of sinne ; but only by withholding that grace which might keep him from sinne . and indeed so he doth ; but marke therewithall how sluttishly he carryeth himselfe in particulars . . in deviating from his confirmity to his owne instances . for each instance given is in such a thing withdrawen whereupon the event absolutely followeth ; and which not being withdrawen the contrary event not only might be , but would be ; as if a string holding a stone being not broken , the stone not only might be held , but would be held . so if the not beene withdrawen , not only the house might have beene held up , but would have pillar had been held up . but upon granting grace he doth not say the creature would have beene kept from sinne , but might have beene kept from falling into sinne . now what legerdeimaine is this ? and could he presume his reader would prove so simple and sottish , as not to observe this incongruity ? . he deviates from our tenet . for we do not say , that upon granting grace supernaturall the creature may abstaine from sinne , if he will , but that hereby is wrought in him a will to abstaine from sinne , a desire to do that which is pleasing in the sight of god , though not in such perfection , as to worke out all naturall corruption that is found within us ; but that still there is sinne dwelling in us ; still there is a flesh fighting against the spirit ; yea , a law in our members rebelling against the law of our mind , and leading us captive to the law of sinne . hence proceed the manifold and dayly sinnes even of the children of god ; but gods spirit is prevalent with them to renew their repentance , even for sinnes of weaknesse , and sinnes of improvidence and inconsideratnesse ; and to keep from presumptuous sinnes , that they may not prevaile over them ; that it may not be said of them , as it was of too many among the israelites , in the wildernesse , their spots are not the spots of thy children . nay , which is more , consider ; arminius confesseth that god doth hinder sinne in such a manner , as by granting such a grace , whereupon they not only may , but will and do abstaine from sinne ; but he doth not thus hinder it in all . what therefore ? shall he be accounted the authour of such sinnes . yet i willingly confesse , arminius and this authour shake hands in this , that the reprobates have such a grace , as whereby they may abstaine from sinne , if they will. yet holy paul confesseth of himselfe , even then , when he was in a better condition ( i trowe ) then that of reprobates , to wit , when he wrote the epistle to the romans , saying , what i would that do i not , but what i hate that do i. and againe , to will is present with me , but i find no meanes to performe that which is good : for i do not the good thing which i would ; but the evill which i would not , that do i. but we deny that a reprobate hath so much as a will to do good ; for such a will undoutedly pleaseth god. but they that are in the flesh cannot please god. as for the solution which he feignes to himselfe of his owne argument , by distinction of an accidentall cause , and a proper and direct cause ; that is none of ours . this is a gambell of his owne , to delude his reader . god we say is the direct and proper cause of that sanctification which is found in his children to the subduing of their lusts , an inordinate affections ; and as direct and proper a cause of leaving their naturall corruption uncured in others : nor so only but of prostituting men unto their lusts , and giving them over to their vile affections , to committ abominable things , not affording them so much as a naturall restraint from such vicious courses , which he could , and that without any supernaturall grace . and by this postitution of them , he knowes how to pay them home for their other ungodly courses , in such sort , as they shall receive thereby such recompence of their errour as is meet ; as saint paul hath told us rom. . but this authour takes little notice of gods word thereby to informe himselfe of gods providence ; but roves whithin the spheare of his owne imagination , and rationall discourse , ( yet as corrupt as well beseemes him who opposeth the free grace of god ) as if he would coyne unto us new oracles , the devises of his owne addle braines . and as for tertullians rule , which this authour insists upon . in whose power it is that a thing be not done , to him it is imputed , when it is done . observe whether this authour doth not make god the authour of every sinne that is committed in the world , as well as we . for himselfe , in the . sect. of the second inconvenience , confesseth that if god had not decreed to suffer sinne , there would be none ; and addes who can bring forth that which god will absolutely hinder . so then undoubtedly it is in gods power , that sinne be not done . for he can hinder it ; what followeth then ? but that to him sinne is to be imputed , when it is done , by tertullians rule , approved by this authour , quite contrary to the judgment and doctrine of austin , putting this difference betweene man and god , the creature and the creator ; that if we suffer others to sinne , when we can hinder them , rei cum ipsis erimus ; but how many sinnes ( sayth he ) do we see committed in the world , which could never come to passe if god would hinder them . shewing how our doctrine opposeth gods mercy according to his conceit , and coming to deliver things more closely , as he sayth , and comprehending that which he hath to say under . particulars : the . whereof this ; that it was the sinne of our nature , not by generation , as i have shewed , but by gods owne voluntary imputation . the proofe whereof and the confirmation of it out of m. calvin being set downe at large in some . lines or more in m. hords discourse , is here utterly left out , which will be the more remarkable by comparing it with what he delivers , concerning another attribute of god here inserted ; and which he pretends , also to be impugned by our doctrine , p. . where he seemes to sup up that which here he delivered . num. . these words are inserted . i thinke i may conclude with the words of prosper , he which sayth that god would not have all men to be saved but a certaine set number of predestinate persons only , he speaketh more harshly , then he should of the height of gods unsearchable grace . nay he speakes that which cannot stand with his infinite grace and mercy , especially to the sonnes of men . the . objection of the galles was this that god will not have all men to be saved , but a certaine number of persons predestinate . now prospers answer hereunto is very large , and it begines thus , if about the salvation of all mankind , and calling them unto the knowledge of his truth , the will of god is maintained to be so indifferent throughout all ages , that god may be shewed to have neglected no man altogether ; the unsearchable depth of gods judgement is hereby assaulted . for why did god suffer all nations in ages past , to walke in their owne wayes when the lord chose iacob to himselfe , and dealt not so with every nation ? and why are they now become gods people , which before were no people of god , & c ? all this makes nothing for this authour . the next is directly against him , not only at large ; but in this very particular , wherein he alleadeth prosper not in his answer to this . objection , but in his sentence proposed afterwards upon it . for what is this authours meaning , ( in citeing him to affirme , that god not only willeth their salvation whom he hath predestinated , but all men also ; or at least that such as say the contrary , do speake more harshly then we ought to speaks of the depth of gods inscrutable grace ) but to cast a colour that prosper concurres with him ; and judgeth that god is indifferunt to save all . but the reason why he only saves some , and not others , is , because some prepare themselves for grace , and accordingly he bestowes it upon them : others do not prepare themselves , and accordingly god doth not bestow it upon them . now prosper directly contests against all such , as maintaine this opinion , and that in two particulars . . in taking upon them to give the reason of gods judgements , and that drawen from the wills and actions of men ; and which is no lesse impiety , in thinking that grace is bestowed by way of reward for good workes ; or restrayned from men by reason of their evill workes . his words translated run thus , but whosoever referreth the causes of gods workes and judgements throughout to the wills and actions of men , and will have gods dispensations varied according to the changeable condition of mans free will ; such a one professeth the judgements of god to be scrutable , and his wayes such , as may be found out . and that which paul the doctor of the gentiles durst not touch , this man thinkes he can unlock and make known . and that which is a fruit of no lesse impiety , the very grace of god whereby we are saved , is given by the way of reward for good workes , and denyed , or restrained for evill workes . so that in each particular prosper is directly contrary this authours tenet . now seeing the most part of men have not the grace of salvation , that is , such a grace as is of saving nature . and the reason by god doth not give it them , is not in consideration of their evill workes ; let any other sober and judicious aminian be judge , whether god can be sayd to will their salvation ( in such a sense as we speake of it ) when he denyeth them the grace of salvation , and that not for their evill workes sake , but ( which necessarily followeth hereupon ) meerely according to the good pleasure of his will. and indeed in prospers large answer to this eighth objectionto the galles , which taketh up almost a whole columne in austin , this authour finds nothing at all to fasten upon for his advantage . but yet you will say in his eighth sentence which he proposeth , it is as this authour alleadgeth : i grant it ; but observe his censure well ; the inscrutable depth of gods grace may suffice to keep us from speaking so rashly , as to say that god wills not all to be saved , but only a certaine number of persons predestinate . where observe , first , he counts it an harsh speech to say , that god willeth not , that all men shall be saved ; the reason whereof undoutedly is this , because it is expresly contradictory to a text in scripture . but then if we object , how can god be sayd to will their salvation whom he hath not predestinated , to whom he will not give the grace of salvation , & that not for their evill workes sake ; but according to the meere pleasure of his will. now prospers answer in my judgement is this , the depth of gods inscrutable grace will beare us out in it ; so that we need not cast our selves upon so harsh an expression , as to deny that god will have all men to be saved , which is contradictious to the letter of gods word . in effect it is , as if he should say ; it is a secret . this i take to be prospers meaning , and herein i remit my selfe to the judicious ; but sure i am that prosper is directly contrary to that opinion whereunto this authour , by vertue of this sentence of his , desires to draw him . in like manner the authour of the booke , de vocatione gentium , which is commonly thought to be prospers , though vossius affects to entitle it unto another upon no other ground , but because he conceits that authour , not to be so rigorous in the doctrine of predestination , as prosper . but let the judicious compare prospers cariage in this particular , with that authours , and observe whether they do not exactly agree for that authour holds up that text of paul , god will have all to be saved , as prosper doth , without assaying to cleare it by interpretation as austin doth , and will have it goe for a secret ; and withall he expresly concurres with prosper in expressing first , that god doth not give grace for mens good workes sake , nor denyes it for their evill workes . for the ages wherein god so plentifully communicated his grace were no better then the former . observe farther that austin himselfe in his enchiridion treating of this place of paul , god will have all to be saved , after he hath given two interpretations thereof , the last whereof interpreting it of genera singulorum , not singula generum , is most generally received , as most congruous both to scripture phrase in generall , and in speciall unto this very text of paul , as piscator observes , and vossius against himselfe improvidently confesseth . yet see the ingenuity of this great light in gods church . if any man can give any other convenient interpretation , let him , provided we be not driven to deny the first article of creed , whereby we confesse that god is omnipotent . and this i conceive proceeded out of a desire to hold up the meaning of that text to the uttermost , that the very letter of it may be applyed so we might not be driwen to so foule an inconvenience , as to say that god willeth that mans salvation , which is never saved ; which is as much as to say , that such a one therefore is not saved , because god cannot save him . observe farther ; in the dayes of hincmarus and remigius , these controversies being revived in the cause of goteschalk , the church of lyons writes a booke wherein it treats of the meaning of this place of paul , whereof he gives fower expositions according to the antient fathers . first , that it is to be understood of genera singulorum , not singula generum ; of all sorts of men , not of all men of all sorts . secondly , that none is saved but by the will of god. thirdly , that god workes in us a will or a desire that all may be saved . fourthly , that god will have all men to be saved , if they will ; then they propose their judgement concerning these fower expositions distinguishing betweene the three , first , and the last , thus , in the three first expositions of these words , wherein it is sayd , that god willeth all men to be saved , no absurdity is to be found , no repugnancy unto faith . but as touching the fourth and the last ; here we are to take heed , for it gives occasion to the pelegian pravity , in as much as it affirmes , that god , that he may save men ; doth exspect the wills of men : ( now this pelagian pravity , is the very substance of our authours orthodoxy whom i deale with . ) against this errour , ( sayth the church of lyons ) we read definitions have beene made in the antient counsels of the fathers . this i take out of the extracts , which vossius hath made out of that booke , which goes under the name of the church of lyons , in his pelagian history . l. . c. . p. , . there is an addition of some few lines in the third sect : concerning gods justice , but they adde noe moment at all to the rest ; and therefore the answer made in that third sect : to m. hord may suffice . and in the same sect : and subsection subordinate to the second assertion , which he obtrudes upon the maintainers of the lower way ; which was this , god hath determined for the sinne of adam to cast away the greatest part of mankind for ever ; this interpolation is inserted . this is so cleare a case that calvin with some others have not stickt to say , that god may with as much justice determine men to hell the first way , as the latter . see instit : l. . cap. . s . . where against those who deny that adam fell by gods decree , he reasoneth thus ; all men are made guilty of adams sinne by gods absolute decree alone , adam therefore sinned by this only decree . what lets them it grāt , that of one man , which they must grant of all men ? and a little after he saith it is too absurd that these kind patrons of gods justice . should thus stumble at a straw , and leap over a blocke . god may with as much justice decree adams sinne and mens damnation , out of his only will and pleasure , as out of that will and pleasure the involving of men in the guilt of the first sinne , at and their damnation for it ; that is the substance of his reasoning . to the same purpose speaketh maccovius ; fromhence we may see , sayth he , what to judge of that opinion of our adversaryes viz. that god cannot justly ordaine men to destruction without he consideration of sinne . let them tell me which is greater to impute to one man the sinne of another , and punish him for it with eternall death , or to ordaine simply , without looking at sinne , to destruction ? surely no man will deny the first of these to be greater . but this god may do without any wrong to iustice , much more therefore may he do the other . as touching the assertion it selfe here charged upon our divines , namely that god hath determined for the sinne of adame to cast away the greatest part of mankind . i have thereunto answered at large in my consideration of m. hords discourse : yet let me adde something by way of an apt accommodation of that before delivered to cleare the ambiguous phrase of this authour , as touching the phrase of casting away . for it may well be doubted whether by casting away ( which he makes the object of gods determination ) he meanes the act of damnation , or the act of denying grace . if the act of damnation , it is most untrue . for reprobates are not damned for originall sinne only , but for all the actuall sinnes that have beene committed by them ; and as they are , and shall be damned for them ; so god from everlasting decreed they should be damned for them . secondly , according to my tenet , in noe moment of nature is gods decree of damning reprobates , before the prescience , not of originall sinne only , but also of all their actuall sinnes . indeed i do not make the prescience of sinne to go before the decree of damnation ; nor do i make the decree of damnation to go before the prescience of sinne , but i conceive them to be simultaneous . it is true many infants we say perish in originall sinne only , not living to be guilty of any actuall sinne of their persons ; why should this seeme strange , when m. hord himselfe professeth in his preface sect . . that all mankind are involved in the guilt of eternall death ? if all are guilty of eternall death , then it were just with god to inflict eternall death upon all for originall sinne ; how much more is it just to inflict eternall death upon some few , being guilty of it . therefore observe the foxlike cariage of this authour . for this former free acknowledgement of the guilt of eternall death adherent to originall sinne in m hords discourse , is quite left out in this , though there it was professed with this asseveration , i confidently believe it . for he well perceived , that this position utterly infatuates the strength of his discourse in this place . and i have still looked when these men will come to a plaine denyall of originall sinne . now if god may justly cast all mankind away for sinne originall , and that as touching the inflicting of damnation upon them for it ; how much more evident is it to be just with god to cast away all mankind for originall sinne , as touching the denyall of grace unto them ? now let us proceed to that which is here inserted out of calvin and maccovius . now calvin sayth not that god may with as much justice determine men to hell the first way , as the latter ; he speakes not at all of gods decree of damnation , he speaks only of gods decree that adam suâ defectione periret , by his fall should be obnoxious to destruction and he proves it by their acknowledgment , that it was by the counsell of god , that all à salute exciderent unius parentis culpâ , should incurre the losse of salvation by the fault of one parent . hereupon he demands saying , what lets them to grant that of one man , which they must grant of all men . and a little after , it is too absurd that those kind patrons of gods justice should thus stick at a straw and leap● over a blocke and whereas calvin sayth , as he relates him , that all men are made guilty of adams sinne by gods absolute decree alone . first , this is untrue ; no where doth he say , that this came to passe by gods absolute decree alone . if he had , i had thought this authour would have justifyed him , as well as m. hord , who in this very place professeth that originall sinne is a sinne made ours only by gods appointment . indeed as m. hord is now set forth in print , this passage is not found : but in m. hord's own copy thus it ranne ; m. mason belike hath gelded him ; yet that of m. hord's was accounted the quintessence of m. mason's strength in this argument ; and he took upon him the propagating of the manuscripts thereof as my selfe know in some particulars . likewise the involving of men in the guilt of adam's sinne and of eternall death , is m. hord's phrase in one place , as before i have shewed out of the fourth section of his preface ; and that by the only decree of god , did he expresse in this place . the same argument is used by maccovius applyed to purpose ( so was not that of calvin's . as for that saying of maccovius , that god may ordaine men to destruction without respect to any sinne of his that is so ordained , is not this manifest . . in the case of annihilation ? for doth not arminius confesse that god can annihilate the holiest creature that is ? ly , as touching the suffering of hell paines . for did not christ suffer them by the ordinance of his father ? or was this suffering of his for any sinne of his own ? this have i proved more then once in my vindiciae to be in the power of god : and medina professeth as much , and that ex concordi omnium theologorum sententiâ ; and vasquez the jesuite concurres with medina in the same opinion . and lately raynaudus in his justification of valerianus ; who proves this to have been the confession of many of the antient fathers , and particularly of fulgentius in that booke of his de praedestinatione & gratiâ , which goes under austin's name . and is it not evident by m. hord's acknowledgment , when he saith that men are made guilty of adam's sin , and of eternall death only by god's decree ? which passage of m. hord's this authour hath razed out , and wipeth his lips , as if he had done no iniquity with his index expurgatorius ; not that he hath changed his opinion , as i verily thinke ; but because he saw what a funestous blow it gave unto his cause in this particular : yet is he magnified as a man unanswerable , none daring to take the bucklers against such a don quixot ; but let the judicious consider this his practise well , & whether he be a man of such authority , as deserving that they should pin their faith on his sleeve , especially considering that he takes no notice of what i have answered to m. hord , to reply thereupon ; and that there is scarce any thing in all this which i have not answered in my vindiciae ; yet he continues to clamour still ; at least by other jack a lents whom he sets up , but answers nothing , but that which is of his own shaping , that making his own bed he may lye the more softly . but let the reader seriously consider this , that will not be gulled and cheated of his faith , as pope caelestinus was of his popedome ; and remember what austin sometimes sayd , si lupi concilium fecerunt , ut pastoribus non responderent cur oves consilium perdiderunt , ut ad luporum speluncas accederent ? if the wolves have consulted together , and resolved not to make answer to the shepheards ; why have the sheep so farre lost all good counsell , as to come to the dens of wolves ? pag : . sub-sect : : concerning god's justice there is a passage inserted out of m. perkins , but it is of no more moment then the rest . in the same sub-section , the three causes why repobates cannot in justice be bound to believe , are much changed from that they were in m. hord's discourse , sent unto his freind , which copy was sent unto me . yet upon better consideration i find it is not so much changed , as at first sight i conceived . the order of the two first reasons is changed ; only in the first here some similies of exageration are wanting , which are not wanting in the second of m. hord's . the second here is most altered . for wheras in m. hord's first discourse which he tendred to a freind of his , the reason ranne thus ; because it is god's will they shall not believe ; to wit , in our opinion it is altered here thus , from an affirmative to a negative , it is not god's unfeigned will they shall believe ; yet himselfe layes the same thing to our charge in an affirmative manner pag : : treating of god's truth sub-sect : : the very last words which i answer apart , all that page almost not being found in m. hord's first discourse . the words are these , can god speak thus to reprobates , who by his own decree shall never repent ? &c. and in this very place at length he riseth to this affirmative , thus , it may rather be said , it is god's unfeigned will they shall not believe , because it is his will they shall want power to believe . so that i need not to trouble my selfe with adding any farther answer to this , more then i have to m. hord and to that page concerning god's truth , sub-sect : . pag : , and sub-sect : . in dealing on god's attribute of justice ; after the authour had proposed his reasons which moved him to thinke that our doctrine of god ▪ s absolute decree is repugnant to god's justice ; he proposeth our answers thereunto , which formerly were but two ; but now are inlarged with the addition of a third . the first whereof is , for the forme of it , changed throughout . the comparison of the waies of god with the mysterious attributes of god is changed , not only as touching the forme , but as touching the matter ; here is no pleading for a reasonable service of god , as there was . his making man's understanding purged from prejudice and false principles , as it was proposed there , purged from prejudices , corrupt affections , and customes , as it is proposed , to be the tribunall , according to whose judgment interpretations of scripture concerning what is just in the courses of god must be allowed or disallowed , i have sufficiently canvased there ; let the reader be pleased to turne to it , and compare my answer to this sub-section , and observe how little spirit he had , so much as to question against any one peece of my answer . here he addes a reason of his former uncouth paradoxe , to wit that , iustice in men and god are for substance but one , and the same thing , though different in degree , as the greater and lesser light . i have sufficiently profligated this in the first section concerning god's attributes . for this very rule he premiseth in generall to the ensuing discourse of his , most congruously ; wilde premises and grounds to wild discourses . the difference he puts between the wayes of god & the mysteries of godlinesse i have there also refuted , shewing that albeit some wayes of god's justice are agreable to the judgment of man , as these mentioned , es : . and ezek : , yet all are not , as there i shew at large . and lastly because he likes rationall discourse so well , i am contented to deale with him at his own weapon , by six rationall demonstrations justifying the absolutenesse of god's decrees , in answer whereunto , he is content to carry himselfe very judiciously , even as mute as a fish . the second answer of ours which he brings in to reply upon , is inserted a new , & that i come to consider in the next place as i find it set down pag. . . . it is answered that these decrees are set down in scripture to be the will of god , and therefore they must needs be just . for god's will is the rule of all righteousnesse . to this answer i have these things to reply . . this rule in divinity is much abused by the maintainers of absolute reprobation , and may not be admitted in their sense and meaning . for god's will is not a rule of justice to himselfe , as if things were therefore just , because he willeth and worketh them ; but his justice rather is a rule of his will & workes , which are the expressions of his will he therefore maketh decrees and executeth them , because they are agreable to that justice which dwells in the divine nature : as he maketh nothing which hath not pot●nitam objectivam , a power of being created without implying contradiction to himselfe , or any thing in him ; so he willeth and doth nothing , but that which may be willed and done salvá justiti● , without wrong to his justice , st. hierome speaking of the prophet hoseas taking a wife of fornication . hos . . . saith it was done in typo , typically , not ●●ally quia si siat , turpissimii est , because if it had been d●ne indeed it had been a most foule thing . but thou wilt answer , saith he , deo ●ubente , nihil turpe est , god commanding it nothing is dishonest . thus much we say , saith the father , that god commandeth nothing but what is honest , but he doth not by commanding dishonest things , make those things honest which are abominable , plainly giving us to see what he thought viz : that god doth not will a thing & of make it good ; but willeth it because it is in it selfe good antecedently , & before the act of god's will about it . and thus much doth zanchy ( though a rigid maintainer of absolute reprobation ) not obscurely confesse in his treatise de naturá dei ; where he letteth ●all such speeches as make god's justice antecedent to his will and therefore the rule of it , rather then a thing regulated by it . neither can god will any thing , saith he , which is not just . and againe , the princes pleasure hath the strength of a law , is a rule saith he , among the canonists . but this is true where the king is just and a 〈◊〉 nothing but what is just . in which words he plainly maketh the justice of the king am●●edent to that will of his , which must be a law . many more speeches he useth there to the same purpose . god's will therefore is not a rule of justice to himselfe . to whom then ? to us . for by it we are first to ●qua●e all our thoughts , words , and deeds . secondly to examine them when they are spoken , and done . primum in aliq●o 〈…〉 regula ●ostcricrum , & supremum inferiorum . ly . i reply that the●● absolute accrces of mens in●vitable salvation and damnation are no parts of gods revealed will. the scriptures teache us no such matter . and therefore to say that they are , is but a mere begging of the question . it hath alwaies been ordinary with false teachers , to make gods word a father to their false opinions , that they may stand the faster and winne the greater credit . the papists ground their transubstantiation , & the lutherans their con●ubstantiation and obiquity upon the scripture , hoc est corpus meū , this is my body . and the defenders of absolute reprobation doe so too . they make their cause to be gods and entitle his word to it ; because they see it is the surest way to defend it , being herein like to some contentious people , who being in law and having a bad cause which they are like to loose , they entitle the king to it , that they may the better uphold it . ly absolute reprobation can be no part of gods revealed will. the reason is , because it is odious to right reason , & begetteth absurdities . for nulla veritas parit absurda ; no truth begetteth absurdities . divers truths are revealed in scripture , which are above , but not contrary to right reason , whether they be matters of faith or life : faith and reason nature and scripture are both gods excellent gifts . and therefore though there may be a disproportion , ye● there can be no repugnancy between them . the worship which god requireth is cultus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a reasonable 〈◊〉 . and the word of god is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , milke reasonable and without guile . these things therefore , being laid together , it will appeare to be but a mere shift and evasion , when absolute reprobation is pr●ved to be unjust , and therefore unworthy of god ; to say gods will is the rule of justice ; this is part of gods revealed will , and therefore most just , whatsoever reason may cavill , and say to the contrary . doth not this authour observe the contradictious nature of this proposition gods will is a rule of justice to himselfe . for a rule of justice to any one is a rule to his will , to be regusated thereby ; & can the will be said to be the rule of justice to the will without contradiction ? the rule propounded was this , god's will is the rule of all righteousnesse ; but the other rule is the rule corrupted by this authour , when he talks of a will , as a rule of justice to the will. . but whether things are therefore just , because god wills them ; or that therefore god willeth them , because they are just ; undoubtedly that which here is proposed is a truth , namely that whatsoever the scripture sets downe to be the will of god , that must needs be just . neither have we any need to improve it any farther then thus . for it is well known , that our divines in their doctrine of predestination , and reprobation doe depend on nothing so much , as the evidence of god's word ; as this author throughout this discourse of his depends on nothing lesse . and therefore he hath cast himselfe upon a strange practice in the former passage , namely to evacuate all our reasons drawn out of the word of god to confirme our doctrine , pleading that the interpretations we make of scripture are all false , because the contrary doctrine which he maintaines , is justified before the tribunall of humane reason purged from prejudice , and false principles , corrupt affections and customes ; which is as much as to professe in plaine termes , that to find out the truth concerning the decrees of predestination and reprobation , we must leave the oracles of god , and hearken to the oracles of reason , provided that it be purged from prejudice and false principles ; from corrupt affections and customes . now i had thought that the spirit of god alone could purge us from such prejudice and false principles ; corrupt affections and customes ; and that this spirit of god worketh only by the word herein , which is called in scripture the sword of the spirit ; yet this author tells us not , where this reason thus purged is to be found ; save that in generall he saith ; that is just or unjust which is so esteemed in the judgment both of best and worst that stand indifferent to the entertainment of any truth , as is to be seen in the former reason according to m. hord's discourse . now who these best are but the arminians in this authours fancy ; & the worst , but anabaptists or heathens ; or both i know not ; sure we are none of them in his understanding purged from false principles and prejudice , from corrupt affections and customes ; because we doe not stand indifferent to the entertainment of his tenets , which he calls truths . . where can he shew that i have made use of any such principles to answer any argument of his against us . i doe not find that any where he can drive me to this though this be the apostles course , as we may see ro : . is there any injustice with god ? god forbid , how doth he prove it , but thus , because the scripture attributes such a course to god ; i will shew mercy on whom i will shew mercy , and i will have compassion , on whome i will have compassion . . but where hath he learnt to be so audacious as to say that , things are not therefore just because god wills them , but that his justice is rather a rule of his will and works ? before he told us , that justice in man , and god were of the same nature ; now that justice which is the rule of our will is , justitia obligans , justice binding us to doe this or that ; and is gods justice obligatory likewise to bind him ? in making the world , i doe not doubt , but god did that which was just ; but was there any justice in god obliging him to the making of the world ? who seeth not , what an atheisticall conclusion followeth herehence , namely that the world was from everlasting , if not necessarily by necessity of nature ; yet necessarily by obligation of justice ? otherwise for an infinite space of time wherein the world was not made ( which must needs have been if the world were not , from everlasting ) god had been and continued to be unjust . the schooles have taught me that there is a justice of condecency consequent to all the actions of god , noe justice of obligation precedent to it . and whereas st. paul tells us that god works all things according to the counsell of his will , both alvarez and suarez though school , divines of opposite families , yet concurre in this that this counsell is , à libera voluntate acceptum , accepted of gods free will. and it is observable , that the apostle calls it not the counsell of his understanding , but the counsell of his will and vasqu●z and suarez both jesuites , but very opposite about the nature of justice in god ; yet both concurre , that there is no justice in god towards his creature , but upon supposition of the determination of god's will. it is most true that supposing the end which god intends , the wisedome of god directs in the right use of congruous meanes ; and no other justice then this his wisedome doth aquinas acknowledge in the divine nature . and great is the wisedome which god manifests in the goverment of this world , yet the same wisedome as great as it is doth not equall the infinite wisdome of god. but of this i have disputed more at large in my vindiciae . where this question is discussed . whether the will of god be circumscribed or regulated by justice ? to no parcell whereof doe i find the least savour of an answer in this authour . but let us examine how well he proves his own tenet ; and that is first by the authority of hierome in his preface to his commentaries on hosea . . by the authority of zanchy ; whereto i answer . . that if the interpretations of scripture must be judged of before the tribunall of reason purged from prejudice and false principles , from corrupt affections and customes ; must not the opinions of such as hierome and zanchy be judged of before the same tribunall also ? ly , touching hierome himselfe . . it is true hierome in that preface understands that command given hosea to be only in a type , and for the reason here mentioned ; but in his commentary he interpreteth it secundum historiam , litterally . neither was the prophet as he saith , to be blamed in this . for he was not the worse , but he made her the better . praesertim especially he was not to be blamed , because he did this not luxuriously or lustfully , or of his own will , but in obedience to the command of god. now let the indifferent judge whether hierome be not as much for us upon the text , as for our adversary in the preface . . observe that hierome is nothing for him in the preface . for hierome speakes there of god's will of command , but we treate of god's will as it signifies not his command given to man , but his own purpose and decree to doe this or that himselfe . judge of the extravagancy of this author by this , and whether his understanding be sufficiently purged from prejudice and false principles , from corrupt affections and customes ; as to make the last resolution of our faith concerning the waies of god thereunto , or the understanding of such as he is , whether best or worst , or of both sizes upon a mere pretence of their indifferency for the entertainement of truths . we willingly grant with zanchy that god can will nothing which is not just ; not that hereby we make any justice to precede the will of god ; but because he hath a lawfull power to doe what he will ; and there is a justice of condency consequent to all his actions . it is otherwise , i confesse , with a man though the greatest of men , as wise as solomon ; though vessells after god's own heart , as david : but hence it followeth not , that because in an earthly king there is a justice antecedent to his will , therefore it is so in the king of heaven and earth . if this authour thinke otherwise , let him know i am not yet sufficiently convicted of the purity of his understanding purged from prejudice and false principles &c. as thereinto to make the last resolution of my faith . yet i confesse he carrieth himselfe magnificently as if he had attained to this purgation , as when he saith , that these absolute decrees of salvation and damnation , are not part of god's revealed will ; but where hath he proved the conditionall decrees that he stands for , are any part of god's revealed will. where doth he find that god decreed to bestow faith and repentance upon a man , because of some good works of his , or deny it to others for failing of some good worke ? as for salvation and damnation we plainly professe , that god intended not to damne any man , but for sinne , nor to bestow salvation on any man of ripe yeares , but by way of reward of his faith , repentance , obedience and good works . doth not he begge the question all along , whē he carrieth his conditionall decrees in a confidentiary manner , without once offering to prove thè by any one place of scripture ? here iexpected he would not begge the question , when he chargeth us to begge the question most insipidly ; when it is well known that our divines are frequent in proving their doctrine out of scripture ; which if it faile of sound proofe in the judgment of his understanding purged from prejudice and false principles ; yet with no modesty ; whatsoever their judgment be ) can he taxe them for begging the question . for to begge the question is not once to offer to prove what they say ; which is this authour's discourse all along . but to supply the place of arguments , he usually foist's in a phrase at pleasure in expressing our tenet of god's decrees ; as of decreeing immutably and unavoidably ; or as here he speakes of damnation and salvation inevitable ; whereas we doe not use to clogge our own expressions , or our readers apprehensions with any such bugheares . we rather say that god decrees all things to come to passe , that do come to passe , and that agreably to their natures , as necessary things necessarily ; and contingent things to come to passe contingently . and surely for doctrines of faith , i thinke every sober christian hath cause to entitle the king to be the authour of them , this authour doth not so much for his : nay the scripture to him seemed so evidently to make for us ( which i desire every wise reader well to observe ) that this drave him to such a sluttish shift , as to except against our interpretations of scripture upon noe other ground but this , that the doctrine confirmed thereby is not consonant to the understanding of men purged from prejudice and false principles , corrupt affections and customes , in the designing of what is just , and what is unjust ; and let every indifferent man judge whether this be not a desperate course , carying with it a secret acknowledgment that the scripture indeed doth favour the way we take in the doctrine of predestination and reprobation . and indeed the ninth to the romans gerardus vossius calls gorgons head whereby we thinke ( so evident is the apostles meaning on our side ) to turne all our opposites into stones , though such vants are none of ours ; but himselfe it seemes had been stupified by it , had he not timely taken hold of scientia media , the jesuites invention , and as vile an invention as ever reasonable men conceived . . lastly he tells us like a resolute sir , that absolute reprobation can be no part of god's revealed will ; and his reason is ; because it is odious to right reason . he doth not shew how it is contrariant to god's word ; but bravely presumes that his reason is right , as if he were of the number of that synedrion whose understandings are purged from prejudice and false principles , from corrupt affections and customes ; and ere he is aware bewraies what he meanes by reason , when he attributes hatred unto it ; and i verily believe his best reason is the strength of his affection . by the way let the reader observe , that he is as opposite to absolute election , as to absolute reprobation ; only he dischargeth his right reason and the spleen thereof against absolute reprobation , not against absolute election . we may easily guesse the true notion of his right reason in this ; his whole discourse savouring farre more throughout of the foxes , then of the lyons skin . now i have given him six reasons for the absolutenesse of reprobation , because he appeales to reason purged from prejudice and false principles , and not one of them hath he answered , though they went out of my hands now full three yeares agoe . i will adventure to give him some reasons for it also out of god's word . for i desire to follow the crooked serpent which way soever he winds and turnes . therefore thus i dispute , predestination is absolute , therefore reprobation is absolute . for if reprobation be not absolute , but proceeds according to mens evill works , then predestination is not absolute , but proceeds according to mens good works , whether faith or other obedience ; according to that of austin . if esau be hated for the merit of unrighteousnesse , incipit & iacob justitiae merito deligi , iacob beginnes to be beloved for the merit of his righteousnesse ; and a little before . si enim quia praesciebat deus futura esaui opera mala , propterea eum praedestinavit , ut serviret minori ; propterea praedestinavit & iacob ut ei major serviret , quia futura ejus bona opera praesciebat , & falsum est jam quod ait , non ex operibus . for if therefore the lord praedestinated esau that he should serve the younger , because he foresaw his evill works . for the same reason he predestinated iacob that he should rule over the elder because he foresaw his good works ; and so false is that which the apostle saith , not of works . now that predestination is absolute i prove thus . it is not upon the foresight of faith , much lesse of works , therefore it is absolute . the anteceedent i prove thus ; that which proceeds according to the good pleasure of the lord's will , is not upon the foresight of faith ; but predestination proceeds upon the good pleasure of god's will ; ergo , the major proposition i prove thus . this phrase , according to the pleasure of god's will excludes all outward causes ; and no wise man will referre the cause of a man's absolution to the good pleasure of the judge , when a man's innocency is the cause of it . for that is the cause of a thing , whereby answere is made to the question , why such a thing is done ; and this is the perpetuall phrase of scripture ; as , is it not lawfull for me to doe what i will with mine own ? and , all these things worketh the same spirit , distributing to every man severally as he will ; and , he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth . it pleased the father that in him should all fulnesse dwell . it is so ô father because thy good pleasure was such . it is god that worketh in you both the will and the deed according to his good , pleasure . the lord loved you because he loved you . deut : . . they inherited not the land by their own sword , neither did their own arme save them , but thy right hand , and thine arme . and the light of they countenance because thou diddest favour them . . my second argument is , therefore god gives faith because he did predestinate them ; as many believed as were ordained to everlasting life ; and god added daily to the church such as should be saved . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place is as much as , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; as appeares by the equipollency of both sentences . now hence i inferre ; therefore god gives not faith because he hath not ordained them to everlasting life . for if the affirmation be cause of the affirmation ; the negation is cause of the negation . and the scripture as ordinarily subjoyneth the deniall of grace to reprobation , as the granting of grace to predestination . for as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such as perish , is opposite to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such as shall be saved ; and as the consequent of the one is said to be faith ; so the consequent to the other is the deniall of the same or like grace . as for example , all they that are of god heare god's word ; so others heare them not because they are not of god ; as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such as shall be saved are added to god's church : so in whom is the gospell hid ? only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in them that perish . among whom doth antichrist prevaile by all deceivablenesse ? only in them that perish . like as for the elect on the contrary 't is not possible they should be seduced . mat : . , and thes : . . if predestination were upon the foresight of faith , then it should be only upon the foresight of such a faith as perseveres to the end ; whence two inconveniences follow . that no man can be assured of his election untill his death , which is quite contrary unto scripture . for paul was assured of the election of the thessalonians by observation of the works of their faith , the labour of their love , and the patience of their hope , . in this case none can be strengthened against the power of temptation by the assurance of their election ; but thus we are strengthned by chist . mat : . . by st. paul. rom : . . thes : . . . election is absolute , therefore reprobation is absolute . the antecedent i prove ; if it be neither of faith nor of works , then it is absolute , but it is neither of faith , nor works . not of works , expresly ; not of faith as appeates by the same reason whereby paul proves it is not of works . for the reason is this , before the children were borne or had done good or evill , it was said the elder shall serve the younger ; therefore election is not of works . now say i we may as well conclude therehence , therefore it is not of faith ; forasmuch as before they were borne , they were as uncapable of faith as of works . the consequence i prove thus ; looke by what reason st. paul proves , that the election of iacob was not of good works , because before they were borne 't was said , the elder shall serve the younger ; by the same reason it is evident that the reprobation of esau was not of evill works ; the subjection of esau unto his younger brother , as lively representing his reprobation , as the dominion of iacob over his elder brother represents his election . . predestination is defined by austin to be praeparatio gratiae , the preparation of grace , therefore reprobation which is opposite thereunto must be the not preparation of grace ; that is god's decree not to give grace , like as the opposite is gods decree to give grace . now god gives grace not according to works . for he hath mercy on whom he will and hereupon austin builds his doctrine of predestination . now by his doctrine predestination is absolute as gerardus vossius confesseth in his preface to his history of the heresy of pelagius ; how can it be otherwise ? for if god conferres grace not according to mens works ; but according to his own purpose and grace . how much more did he decree to give it not upon any foresight of works , but of his mere pleasure . and the scripture as clearely testifies , that as god hath mercy on whom he will ; so whom he will he hardneth ; that is of mere pleasure he denieth grace to some , as of mere pleasure he grants it unto others ; and therefore reprobation grounded hereupon must needs be as absolute , as predestination grounded upon the other . . like as in scripture phrase faith is said to be the faith of god's elect , election is not said to be of those that are foreseen to to believe ; so the worshippers of the beast are said to be those . whose names are not written in the booke of life ; they that are not written in the booke of life , are described to be such that admire and worship the beast . and the not writing of mens names in the booke of life doth as significantly represent their reprobation ; as the writing of mens names in heaven . luc : . . rev : . : doth represent their election . thus as formerly i gave six reasons to justifie the absolutenesse of reprobation , because he pretended the absolutenesse thereof was repugnant to reason ; so here i have given six more derived out of the word of god , to prove that this doctrine is the revealed will of god , to stop his empty mouth that clamoureth and only clamoureth that it is no part of god's revealed will. and that this doctrine is not only conformable to right reason , but by convincing arguments in right reason demonstrable i have already shewed ; and that all the absurdities this authour blatters of , they prove to be no better then the mere imagination of a vaine thing . that which here he discourseth of a reasonable service , comes out of it's place , it belonged to the former reason in m. hord's treatise , and there i have answered it , and shewed the absurd interpretation that he makes of it . he vaunts that he hath proved reprobation absolute to be unjust , when he hath performed no thing lesse ; but making only a greate cracke , he goes out like a squib ; and throughout meddles not with one argument that our divines bring out of scripture , or reason to justifie their doctrine concerning the absolutenesse of reprobation . and it is apparent that he denies the absolutenesse of election , as well as the absolutenesse of reprobation , and consequently must necessarily maintaine that grace is given according to works ; whereupon it was that austin grounded his doctrine concerning the absolutenesse of predestination : and upon the like ground have we as good cause to ground our doctrine concerning the absolutenesse of reprobation , it being every way as evident , that grace is not denied according unto works , as that it is not granted according to mens works ; and the scripture is equally as expresse concerning both , where it is said that as god hath mercy on whom he will , so also whom he will he hardneth . pag : . . treating of god's sincerity sub-sect : . there are two passages inserted taken out of piscator , before the passages alleadged out of zanchy and bucer . for having said that , now god's meaning is ( by this doctrine ) that the most of those to whom he offereth his grace and glory , shall have neither ; forthwith he gives instance in piscator thus . and so piscator saith , grace is not offered by god , even to those who are called with a meaning to give it , but to the elect only , gratia non offertur à deo singulis ●licet vocatis , animo communicandi eam , sed solis electis . in the same booke he hath such an other speech ; non vult deus reprobos credere li●etli●gua profiteatur se velle . though god in words protest he would have reprobates to believe , yet indeed he will not have them . they make god to deale with men in matters of salvation , as the poets feigne the gods to have dealt with poore tantalus . they placed him in a cleare and goodly river up to the very chin , and under a tree which bare much sweet and pleasant fruit that did almost touch his lips , but this they did with a purpose that he should tast of neither . for when he put his mouth to the water to drinke , it waved away from him ; and when he reached his hand to the fruit to have eaten of it , it withdrew it selfe presently out of his reach ; so as he could neither eate nor drinke . just so dealeth god with reprobates ; ( by their doctrine ) he placeth them under the plentifull meanes of salvation , offereth it to them so plainly , that men would thinke they might have it when they will , & yet intendeth fully they shall never have it , withholding from them either the first grace that they cannot believe , or the second grace that they cannot persevere . did not those gods delude tantalus ? yes doubtlesse . and if god doe so with reprobates , what did he but delude them , and dissenible with them in his fairest and likeliest offers of salvation that he makes them ? and this doe zanchius and bucer grant by evident consequence , as appeareth by a speech or two of theirs , which cannot stand with their conclusion ; and therefore i suppose fell unwarily from them . this treatise of piscator de praedestinatione against schaffman i have the second editition printed at herborne anno . but these words according to their quotations here , are not to be found ; the severall distinct passages are distinguished by numbers , which in all editions hold the same , not so the pages . yet the latter passage quoted p. . i meet with in mine p. . according to the like difference i try whether i can find out the other , but in vaine . but yet i meet with such matter of discourse as whereunto this passage is very congruous to be there delivered if any where ; yet no such thing is there delivered as num : . schaffman's argument is this , if god calls all to salvation then he will save all . to this piscator answereth , the proposition is false ; but he calls with , animo simplici atque vero , a simple mind and true . sane saith piscator , as much as to say , i grant that ; but so as that he calls them with condition of repentance and faith ; therefore as he promiseth salvation seriously unto them that performe this condition , and therefore performes this promise . so on the contrary he doth seriously threaten death and damnation to them who doe not fulfill the condition , and performes unto him that commination . then , though god be not capable of hypocrisy yet he doth not alwaies will that what he commands shall be alwaies performed by him to whom he gives that command ; whether by commanding he meanes to prove a man ; as to prove abraham , he commanded him to sacrifice his son ; or because to him whom he commandeth , he will not give grace to performe that command , as he deales with reprobates . and num : . to schaffman's objection which was this ; god is no hypocrite , he answers thus ; but yet he gives not grace to all to performe what he commands thē . for promiscuously he commands as well reprobates as elect to believe ; as many as he calls by the preaching of the gospell ; but he gives this grace to his elect alone according to that , to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdome of heaven , but to them it is not given . so that undoubtedly god offers grace ( to wit pardon of sinne ) with a purpose to communicate it to all that shall believe , according to the judgment of piscator , neither doth he offer it with a purpose to communicate it to any unlesse they believe . but the grace of faith is not offered to any with a purpose to communicate it upon a condition . for then grace should be conferred according unto works , which is manifest pelagianisme . as for the other which i meete with p : . num : : take it at full , and not as it is dismembred by this authour , who cares not how he calumniates , so he might advantage his own cause . schaffman's objection was , deus est unius & linguae & voluntatis , god is both of the same tongue and will. whereto piscator answers thus , your meaning is that god , look what he professeth with his tongue , that he willeth ; but this ( saith he ) is not alwaies true , nor in all particulars . for by his tongue that is by speech uttered , he professed that he would have abraham to sacrifice his son isaac ; yet he would not have him sacrificed . with his tongue he professed by his servant ionas that he would destroy nineveh within forty dayes , yet he would not so doe . with his tongue by the ministers of the gospell he professeth that he would have the reprobates to whom he speaketh among his elect , to believe the gospell , in as much as he commands them so to doe ; yet he would not have them to believe , in as much as he will not give them the grace of believing , without will no man can believe . what therefore is god an hypocrite ? away with such a blasphemy . he alone is to be accounted an hypocrite , who counterfeits holinesse when he has none ; such counterfeiting is not incident to god. and let the reader observe well the immodest cariage of this authour . piscator when he saith that god in words professeth he will have reprobates to believe , he shewes withall in what respect he doth so , to wit , quatenus mandat ut credant , in as much as he commands them to believe . and indeed god's command is usually called god's will , and by none more then by these our opposites . but this authour drawes this to the signification of god's will simply so called , which is the will of purpose ; and to that purpose leaves out the words whereby piscator explicates himselfe . who knowes not that god commanded pharaoh by his servant moses to let israel goe ? this is to professe with the tongue in piscator's phrase , that god would have pharaoh to let israel goe . and god's commandement is called god's will in scripture . this is the will of god even your sanctification . but to speake properly it is but the signification of god's will of good pleasure ( properly called the will of god ) that it should be pharaoh's duty to let israel goe , but withall he revealed to moses that he would harden pharaoh ▪ s heart , that he should not let israel goe . now let the indifferent judge what this authour hath gotten by these passages of piscator , save only the displaying of his own immodest and calumniating courses ▪ then he thinks to please his reader with the story of tantalus ; wherein there is no congruity to that whereunto it is applyed , for tantalus à labris sitiens fugientia captat flumina , — he was an hungred , and would faine eate but could not : he was a thirst , and would faine drinke but could not . god deales so with no man ; neither reprobate jewes , nor gentiles had any desire to be partakers of the mercies of god offered them in christ . the gospell was a scandall to the one , and foolishnesse to the other ; but to them that are called it is the power of god and wisedome of god and as they hunger and thirst after god's righteousnesse in his deare son ; so are they satisfied therewith , let him that is a thirst come and drinke of the water of life freely . and he every one that is a thirst , come ye to the waters , and ye that have no silver , come buy and eate ; come i say buy wine and milke without silver and without money : wherefore doe ye lay out your silver , and not for bread ? and your labour without being satisfied ? hearken diligently unto me , heare and your soules shall live ; and i will make an everlasting covenant with you , even the sure mercies of david . here is no sending of them away empty , which thirst after these waters of life ; they all shall draw waters of the wells of salvation . so that here is no such dealing with them , as the poets feigne was their gods dealing with tantalus . my answer to that which he produceth out of zanchy and bucer the reader shall find in my answer to m. hord. pag. . . in the point of threats and comminations ; after these words , we never read that threats are thundred out against us for originall sinne . in m. hord's discourse it is added , or for that corruption of nature which we brought with us into the world : but this authour leaves it quite out , with what mind let the reader judge , and whether he can well brook that originall sinne should be stiled a corruption of nature which we bring with us into the world . pag. . in the same second sub-section after that of abslaon's feast , ioab's congy , the kisse of iudas , and the hyaena's teares &c. there is a good passage left out which followeth in m. hord ; and in the place thereof this , which here followeth , foysted in ; let the reader consider with himselfe , wherefore that was left out ; it seemes he was asham'd of that calumniation . but thus it followes here . nay the whole ministry ( wherein god commandeth , offereth , chideth , entreateth , lamenteth &c. ) if this be true , is but a mere imposture ; a giving of words without any meaning of answerable deeds ; and an imposture so much the greater , by how much the shew of kindnesse is the heartier . for how can a good thing be offered with stronger shewes of a good meaning , then when it is offered with exhortations and entreaties to accept it , with cleare demonstrations of the excellency of it , unfeigned wishes , that the parties to whom it is offered would accept it ; and bitter lamentations for their folly in refusing it ? with all these enforcements i● gods tenderof salvation to reprobates accompanyed ; and therefore in shew most hearty and serious . in a word thusspeaks god , by this doctrine , to reprobates in the ministery . o ye reprobates ( once most dearely beloved of me in your father adam but now extreamly , and implacably hated ; and by mine eternall & uncontroulable order scaled up under invincible sinne and misery ) amend your lives and believe in the name of mine only begotten son. if you repent , and believe not , there is no remedy , you must be damned ; but if you repent and believe ye shall be saved ; though your sins be as red as scarlet , i will make them to be as white as wooll . thinke not that i would have you dye . for i sweare , as i live , i will not the death of him that dyeth . i would have no man to perish , but all to come to repentance . i beseech you therefore be reconciled . i have cryed and called unto you ; i have a long time waited upon you , that you might repent ; and still am i knocking at the doores of your hearts for entrance . o that there were an heart in you to feare me and keep my commandements , that it might goe well with you for ever . what shall i doe unto you ; how shall i intreate you ? will you not be made cleane , when shall it once be ? can god speake thus to reprobates , who by his own decree , shall never repent , nor be saved , without the deepest dissimulation ? judge indifferent reader whether ever more passion were shewed with lesse common sense . for let the enforcements be never so great and serious in the ministry of the word , under which all the expressions here mentioned are comprehended , yet is it possible , that men can yeild unto them obedience by faith and repentance , unlesse god gives faith and repentance ? for doth not the scripture clearely testifie that faith is the gift of god. to you it is given both to believe in him , & to suffer for him : that it is the worke of grace . act. . . what hast thou that thou hast not received ? and doth not the apostle accordingly pray on the behalfe of the ephesians , not for peace only , but for faith and love also from god the father and our lord jesus christ ? is not repentance also the gift of god ? him god raised to be a prince and a saviour to give repentance unto israel & forgivenesse of sins . then hath god also unto the gentiles given repentance unto life . if so be god may give them repentance . what then ? shall this authour 's not logick , but rhetoricke whereinto his logick is transform'd to the wonder of all that know him in the university , like some medusa's head , turne us into stones , and in spight of scripture evidence drive us to deny , that either faith , or repentance , is the gift of god ? for if it be the gift of god , is not somewhat else required to the working of faith in us over and above all these enforcements ? not one arminian hitherto have i found daring to deny that faith is the gift of god : yet ever since i read them in their censura censurae to deny that christ hath merited faith and regeneration for us , i looked when they would come to deale seriously and sincerely ; and if they have any such meaning , clearely to professe as much , namely that faith is not the gift of god. but if this authour's meaning be that god gives it to all that have it , and is also ready to give it to them that have it not , próvided , that they will doe their own part , seing he chargeth us to make god's waies void of truth and syncerity , how comes it to passe that this authour carrieth himselfe so subdolously & shewes so little sincerity and clearenesse in dealing plainly , & telling us that this is his meaning ? is it because we are ready to conclude upon him that he is as errand a pelagian , as ever was , in maintaining that grace is conferred according to works ? why doth he carry himselfe and his opinions in huggar muggar if he be of that mind , and doth not plainly shew himselfe to be a pelagian , and prove to the world that pelagianismus est verus christianismus , pelagianisme is true christianity ? and in the next place oppose paul also in saying that god saved us and called us with an holy calling not according to our works , but according to his own purpose and grace ; and that he hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will he hardneth ? ly , consider further the strange infatuation of this author , more waies then one . for , inquire of him , whether after all this worke of the ministery performed by him unto reprobates , he thinks not himselfe bound to pray unto god for a blessing upon his labours , whereby it may become effectuall unto them , and that upon this ground , because paul may plant , and apollo may water , but god is he who gives the encrease . and let him expresse what the encrease is , which he beggeth at the hand of god , whether it be not the performance of those duties whereunto he hath exhorted them in the most emphaticall manner , that the word of god doth afford any example of . and if no more be required for the working of man's will to that which is good ( having as this authour supposeth a power to performe obedience if they will ) then these enforcements which he so much amplifies ; whereto tend his prayers after all these enforcements are used ? is it that god will afford his concourse to the act ? why is this a worke of grace ? doth not god afford this to the most sinfull act that is , without all prayers ? and is it decent to maintaine that god of himselfe is forward enough to afford concourse to such acts as are evill , be they never so abominable ; but to concurre with us to that which is good , he stands off and must be entreated and sollicited by our prayers earnest and fervent , otherwise he will be slacke to concurre to that which is good , though nothing slack to concurre to that which is evill ? nay is it possible that man should will ought , or doe ought , and god not concurre with him , to the producing both of the will and the deed ? now i had thought prayers tended to the procuring of works of grace , such as concourse is not , as which is performed of god . to sinfull acts , as well as to pious acts . . and that necessarily upon supposition that the reasonable creature doth ought . consider farther , if his prayers tend only to the procuring of god's concurrence , and this concurrence is upon supposition of mans concurrence ; let the indifferent , i say , consider the genius of this man's prayers . for albeit the forme of them runnes thus , that god will convert his hearers to faith , to repentance , and to work in them that which is pleasing in his sight through jesus christ ; yea to worke in them both the will , and the deed , according to his good pleasure , to circumcise their hearts , to love the lord their god with all their hearts , & with all their souls , to heal their backslidings ; yea as he seeth all their waies , so to heale them , to cause them to walke in his statutes , and to keep his judgments , and to doe them ; yea to put his feare in their hearts , that they may never depart away from him . ( for thus he must pray , if he pray in faith built upon god's promises , we having speciall promises for all these particulars ; ) yet his meaning is no more then this , that as many of his auditors as he findes willing to doe ought of this , that god will concurre with them to make them willing ; and as many as doe performe it , he will concurre to the performance of it ; as for those that are unwilling , he will not pray that god will make them willing , though that hath been ever the lords course towards some , as austin often professeth , and as for that prayer of austin , da domine quod jubes & jube quid vis , lord give me to doe what thou commandest , and then command what thou will. like enough he spights it as much as ever pelagius did . but if any are forward to hate & to despite god's word , or the professours of his truth , he will not pray unto god to concurre with them thereunto . for he knowes god's forwardnesse to concurre to the performance of every abominable act without his prayers : nay in despite of any prayers to the contrary : and doth he not thinke it in vaine for the holiest man that ever was to pray for this ? . againe observe he saith that by our doctrine the whole ministery is a mere imposture , & why ? because it is in shew hearty and serious , but in truth nothing so . but what moves him to say this , doth not god procure hereby the conversion & salvation of millions ? vea of many of those who have crucified the son of god ; who have persecuted his church ? do we not believe that a time shall come wherin the jews shall be cōverted in spight of all their former obstinacy , & in despight of all their blasphemies powred sorth against the son of god ? but he will say , that grace is shewed only to the elect by our opinion . but here let every indifferēt person judg between us of the equity of this his discourse . the whole ministery is a mere imposture ; because all the inforcements wherewith the tender of salvation unto reprobates is accompanied is in shew most hearty & serious , but indued nothing so . for what ? have the elect of god no part in the ministery ? or dates he say that by our doctrin these insorcements are nothing hearty & serious to them ? thou wilt say the authour's meaning is , that the whole ministery is a mere imposture towards reprobates ; but he saith not so ; but thus , the whole ministery is a mere imposture ; and afterwards in giving his reason for it , he pleads , that inforcements in shew hearty & serious made to reprobates are nothing so ; & hence he concludes that the whole ministery is a mere imposture without any distinctiō of persons , to whom it is a mere imposture . yet i willingly confesse that it is foul enough , that god's courses should be courses of imposture towards any even towards reprobates . but how doth he prove , that god takes any such course with reprobates ? to whom hath god sent his word & vouchsafed the ministery hereof according to all the enforcements mētioned accompanying his tender of salvation unto them ? is it not unto his church ? what is the preserment of the jew above the gentile ? much every way , saith paul , chiefly because unto thē were committed the oracles of god. and was the church of jewes , a church of reprobates , were they not the city of god , but the city of the devill ? if these enforcements had been used to the nativites , there had been some colour for such an imputation ; but seing 〈…〉 of god's word in all these enforcements is used to the people of god , his pretious people , chosen out of the world to put his name among'st them ; shall this ministery be so carryed , as concerning reprobates ? all that he hath to say for this is no other , but that a great part , or the most part of the people to whom he sends his prophets are reprobates . be it so , but how doth he prove that god intends this ministery ; for the salvation of reprobates ; or that he intends it at all for them ? if god commands them , as he commanded ieremiah saying , goe & cry in the eares of jerusalem , thus saith the lord ; they must doe so without difference . for they are not able to put a difference between the elect and reprobate , to know who are the one , and who are the other . austin was willing to pray for all , but yet he professeth , that if they knew who they were , whō god had ordained unto damnation , they would pray no more for them , then for the devill himself ; so that either the prophets were not of austin's mind , or else that they thought that their ministery in god's purpose and appointment tended to the salvatiō only of gods elect : but because they knew not , who they are , therefore they prayed for all , and used their ministeriall enforcements indifferently towards all . but like enough this authour will deny , that the prophets were of austin's mind ; therefore i will prove they were in this ; the prophets were undoubtedly of st. paul's mind ; but st. paul was of st. austin's mind in this therefore the prophets also were of st. austin's mind . now that st. paul was of st. austin's mind , and that his ministery , though performed towards all , yet was intended for the salvation only of god's elect , i prove thus , though i be free from all men , yet have i made my selfe a servant unto all men that i might winne the more . observe , he doth not say that he might winne all ; againe , i became all things to all men that i might save some . who are these some at whose salvation he aimes ? i answer they are god's elect , and none but they ; and this i prove out of those words of his where he saith , therefore i suffer all things for the elects sake that they might also obtaine salvation which is in christ iesus with eternall glory . now if his sufferings were for their sakes , undoubtedly his whole ministery was for their sakes ; for this alone brought his sufferings upon him . the holy ghost witnesseth in every city saying , that bonds and afflictions abide me ; but i passe not at all , neither is my life deare unto my selfe , so that i may fulfill my course with joy and the ministration that i have received to testifie the gospell of the grace of god. . but be it , that god intends it for reprobates also , yet not for their salvation ; but first to take away excuse from them , as to this purpose he sent ezechiel . son of man i send thee to a rebellious nation for they are impudent children ; i doe send thee unto them , and thou shalt say unto them , thus saith the lord god ; but surely they will not heare neither indeed will they cease ; for they are a rebellious house , yet shall they know that there hath been a prophet among them . or otherwise as austin hath observed , ut proficiant ad exteriorem vitae emendationem , quo mitius puniantur , that they may profit to an outward amendment of their lives , that their punishment may be the lesse . and consider whether in all this he doth not openly invade , not so muchour doctrine , as the manifest evidence of god's word . for it is apparent that god gives commands to those whose hearts he means to harden , that they shall not obey those commands , though those commands were not made in a cold manner but with strongest enforcements . thou shalt say to praraoh , thus saith the lord , israel is my son , even my first borne , wherefore i say to thee , let my son goe that he may serve me . if thou refuse to let him goe , behold i will slay thy son , even , thy first borne . yet before this he told moses saying , i will harden his heart , and he shall not let the people goe . and after this , the lord hardned the heart of pharaoh , and he hearkned not unto them , as the lord had said to moses . and hereupon the lord deales with him in the way of greater enforcement then before . for the lord said unto moses , rise up early in the morning , and stand before pharaoh and tell him , thus saith the lord god of the hebrews , let my people goe that they may serve me , for i will at this time send all mine plagues upon thine heart , and upon thy servants , and upon thy people , that thou maiest know that there is none like me in all the earth . for now will i stretch out mine hand , that i may smite thee , and thy people with pestilence , and thou shalt perish from the earth . and indeed for this cause have i appointed thee to shew my power in thee , & to declare my name thoroughout all the world ; yet thou exaltest thy selfe against my people , and lettest thē not goe . behold tomorrow this time i will cause to raine , a mighty great hayle , such as was not in egypt since the foundation of it was laid . and the lord said unto moses , goe to pharach ; for i have hardned his heart , and the heart of his servants , that i might worke these my miracles in the middest of his realme . here we have plaine enforcements & those of great power used by the lord , yet still the lord continues to harden pharaoh's heart , and professeth as much , not fearing the censure of any vile wretch to cast upon him the imputation of imposture throughout the whole course of his ministery . and the truth is all the learned concurre in distinguishing between , voluntas praecepti , & voluntas propositi ; and count it absurd to inferre the purpose of god , or his will to have such a thing done from his commanding it , though this command be joyned with exhortation , expostulations , wishes , or whatsoever other emphaticall expressions ; all which the learned conclude under praeceptum , as a signe of god's will : and the pelagians of old urged it no farther then as god's precept backt with what exhortations and enforcements soever , thence to conclude that man had power to yeild obedience , but not to conclude , it was god's will it should come to passe ; and to impute desires unto god in proper speech , which never are accomplished , what an unscholasticall course is it ? even as much as to deny him to be god , and to bereave him of his blessed condition , by frustrating him of his desires : whereas the time shall come , that the elect of god shall be so blessed , as to have no desire of theirs in vaine . neither doth the objectour introduced by st. paul breake forth into any such blasphemy , as to charge god with any imposture in hardning whom he will ; when neverthelesse the ministery of the word hath course with them as well as with any other ; but rather proposeth it as a thing unreasonable , that god should complaine of mens disobedince , when himselfe hath hardned their hearts , whereby it comes to passe that it cannot be that they should obey god as they ought . for who hath resisted his will. yet we know what answer the apostle maketh to stop the mouthes of all such , as call god to an account for his procedings . but ô man who art thou who disputest with god ? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , why hast thou made me thus ? hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lumpe , to make one vessell unto honour and another unto dishonour ? and wilt not thou allow as much power unto god over thee , or over the matter whereof thou wast made , as the potter hath power over the clay ? proud man thinks himselfe able enough to believe , to repent . now god by his passionate expressions in the prophets discovereth the vanity of this proud conceit , and laboureth by their little profiting by all these patheticall moving courses to manifest the strength of man's corruption ; and when they will not learne and receive this instruction by his workes ; he tells them the plaine truth of it to their faces . ye have seen all that the lord did before your eyes in the land of egypt , to pharaoh and all his servants , and unto all his land . the great temptations which thine eyes have seen , those great miracles and wonders : yet the lord hath not given you an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto this day . is this the course of imposture , when he tells them to their faces , that albeit he commands them , exhorts them , expostulates with them , and expresses formes of desire of their obedience in his word ; yet except god gives them an heart , they cannot perceive ; except god gives them eyes , they cannot see ; except the lord gives them eares they cannot heare : what can be more plaine dealing then this ? like as our saviour no lesse plainly told the jewes to their face ; he that is of god heareth god's words ; ye therefore heare them not , because ye are not of god ; yet was he earnest and patheticall enough in exhorting them to repentance by the ministery of iohn the baptist ; by his own ministery . ierusalem , ierusalem that killest the prophets , and stonest them which are sent unto thee ; how often would i have gathered thy children together as an hen gathereth her chicken under her wings , and ye would not . behold your habitation is left unto you desolate . for i say unto you ye shall not see me henceforth , till that ye say , blessed is he that commeth in the name of the lord. i come to this author 's prosopopey ; for the truth is his rhetorick surmounts his logicke , whereat i wonder not a little . o ye reprobates , once most dearely beloved in your father adam . but where hath he found in any of our divines that reprobates were at all beloved in our father adam ? we all hold reprobation to be as antient as election , which st. paul testifies to have been before the foundation of the world . and to ordaine to damnation i should think is to hate rather then to love ; and this ordination divine was from everlasting . and the scripture hath taught us that the divine nature is without variablenesse or shadow of change . he speakes in the language of his own court , when he talkes of sealing up under invincible sinne and misery . the scripture speaks of sealing unto the day of redemption by god's holy spirit which gives them assurance , that they are kept by the power of god through faith unto salvation ; that god will deliver them from every evill work , & preserve them to his heavenly kinngdome . but no such spirit is given to reprobates to assure them of their damnation , so to seale them up under invincible sin & misery . they are under the power of satan ; but he hath neither power nor authority to assure them of their damnation . and albeit this authour fashions a discourse to reprobates , as if they were a sect well known ; yet we are so farre from knowing who they are , that they are ( in our opinion ) neither known to themselves , nor known to satan , no nor to god's holy angells , unlesse he reveale it unto them . if we should have any cause to addresse our selves to reprobates ( which kind of case and occasion is incomprehensible by me ) we should describe them no otherwise then thus ; o ye who are not only for the present under the power of satan ( and so are all god's elect before the time of regeneration ) but will continue vassalls unto him , even unto death , going on from sinne , to sinne and never breaking them off by repentance , but continuing to despise the goodnesse of god leading thereunto . now this being only in reference to the time to come ; i cannot speake to any in present under this forme absolutely , but hypothetically . for none are reprobates to us , but such who finally persevere in impenitency ; therefore i cannot exhort them to amend their lives under the stile of reprobates , but as such , who although they are under the power of sinne and satan , may for ought i know belong to god's election , and in good time come out of the snare of satan ; and because the ministry of the word is the only meanes whereby god brings men unto repentance , and that by instruction , admonition and exhortation ; therefore i doe instruct them in the knowledge of god that made them after his own image ; and how this image of god came to be defaced in them , to wit , by the sinne of our first parents , and how hereupon we became to be shapen in sinne , and borne in sinne , and therewithall children of wrath , and such as deserve to be made the generation of god's curse ; then i represent unto them the mercy of god towards man in giving us his son to beare our sins in his body upon the tree , and suffer a shamefull and bitter death upon the crosse for them ; and that for this his son's sake he offers unto us the pardon of all our sins upon our repentance , and faith in christ , and thereupon i exhort them unto repentance : we farther say that god takes no pleasure in the death of him that dieth , but takes pleasure in a man's repentance . we doe not say , neither doth the word of god say , that he willeth not the death of him that dyeth . for undoubtedly he willeth the damnation of all them that dye in their sins without repentance . we doe not say that god would have no man to perish , but all come to repentance . neither doth the scripture say any such thing ; for that were to deny god's omnipotency . for seing many there be that perish ; if this were contrary to god's will , then god's will should be resistible , and we should be driven to deny the first article of our creed ; as austine hath long agoe argued the case . but indeed peter writing to them , who had obtained like pretious faith with the apostles themselves ; and such as were elect unto sanctification of the spirit ; and were begotten againe to a lively hope by the resurection of jesus christ from the dead ; to them he writes saying , the lord of that promise is not slack , but is patient towards us ( not to us reprobates ; god forbid that we should so corrupt the interpretation of his words ; but rather to us elect , to us called , to us begotten of god ) not willing any to perish ( to wit of us ) but all come to repentance , to wit all of us , whensoever through our frailty we turne out of the good wayes of the lord. god cries unto you by us , and calls upon you by us ; and hath along time shewed great patience , and long suffering , and hereby led you unto repentance ; & by his word stands knocking at the doores of your hearts , and calling upon you to open unto him . and the more to move you , he is pleased to expresse himself in the affections of a weake man , who is not able to accomplish his desires , o that there were an heart in you to feare me and keep my commandements ; and with great passionatnesse cryeth out unto you , what shall i doe unto you , how shall i intreat you ? as if he were to seek what course to take , and willing to use every provocation to excite you and stirre you up , sometimes by gracious promises , as come and let us reason together , though thy sins were as scarlet &c. sometimes by threatnings , woe unto thee ô jerusalem , wilt thou not be made cleane , when shall it once be . and withall he gives us to understand , & requires us to preach as much unto you also , even to acquaint you with the whole counsell of god , & tell you , that as many as are ordained unto eternall life , as many as to whom the arme of the lord is revealed ; as many as are of god , they obey this calling , they believe , they heare god's words , and turne unto him by true repentance sooner or later ; they that doe not , it is because they are not of god. and albeit those words are the words of moses , o that there were an heart in you to feare me ! speaking to them in the name of the lord ; yet the same moses tells the same people plainly that the lord had not given them an heart to perceive , nor eyes to see , nor eares to heare unto that day . and albeit the lord professeth in like manner by his prophet esay , o that thou hadst hearkned unto my commandements , then had thy prosperity been as the flood , and thy righteousnesse as the waves of the sea . yet this very disobedience of theirs was consequent to the lord's obduration of them , as appeares es : . . goe say unto this people ye shall heare indeed , but ye shall not understand ; ye shall plainly see & not perceive . make the heart of this people fat , make their eares heavy and shut their eyes ; least they see with their eyes , and heare with their eares , and convert , and he heale them . then said the lord how long ? ( should this obduration continue ) and he answered untill the cityes be wasted without inhabitant , and the houses without man , and the land be utterly desolate ; and the lord have removed men farre away , and there be a great desolation in the midst of the land ; yet i dare not say of any of you , that ye are reprobates . for god may open your eyes before you dye to see your sins , and touch your hearts that ye may bewaile them . and whensoever this blessed condition doth befall you , i will stirre you up to give god the glory of it , who alone it is , that worketh in us that , which is pleasing in his sight ; yea both the will and the deed according to his good pleasure . if he never workes any such thing in you , the more inexcusable are you , who presuming of your own power to believe , to repent ; yet are nothing moved with such passionate expressions , unto repentance . if you doe believe there is such impotency in you to good , and that it must needs continue in you , while god continueth to harden you by denying his grace , and thereupon ye except against gods course in complaining of their disobedience , whom he hath hardned saying why then doth he complaine ; for who hath resisted his will ? i put all such over to st. paul to receive answer from him rom : . . . . as touching this author's conclusion ; dares he himselfe say that by god's decree reprobates shall ever repent or be saved ? what then is his meaning ? why doth he not expresse himselfe in this particular ; but most unshamefastly earthes himselfe like a foxe , unwilling to bring his vile opinion to the light , which i take to be no other then this , that god's decree of giving faith is not absolute but conditionall ; namely to give faith to as many , as shall prepare themselves for it ; and to deny it to none , but such as faile to prepare for it ; as much as in plaine termes to professe that grace is given according unto workes , the very filth of pelagianisme : yet hath he no where discovered wherein this preparation consists ; that he keeps to himselfe , and to his own muses . p. . i find another addition to the third sub-section in these words . to offer salvation under a condition not possible is in circumstance a great deale worse . for it is a deniall under colour of the contrary ; a deniall joyned with a scoffe and derision ; as was that of the jebusites , who told david that he should not enter into the fort of sion , except he took away the blind and the lame . their meaning was they would never deliver it up unto him ; and because they thought it impossible for him to take away the blind and the lame , they told him if he did so , then they would yeeld it up . it was an ironicall & scoffing denyall of his demand . if the king should make an unrepealable law that no german should be made a citizen of london or free denizon of the kingdome , & then make a decree to give some bountifull gratuities , but to the citizens of london , or to the subjects of the kingdome only , & to none but them ; and yet for all this should command it to be proclaimed , that he will give them to the germans upon concondition they will be made free men of london , or be incorporated into the kingdome ; would not any man say that the king in this case did dissemble and delude the poore dutchmen ? and if any should say there would be no dissembling in it ; for if they would become citizens or subjects , they should have the promised gratuities , a man might truely answer , that therefore the king doth counterfeit and cousen them , because he makes a tender of them upon a condition not possible by his own decree . in like manner if god have made a decree , that such men shall never believe , and yet offer them heaven upon condition , they will believe , it may most truly be sayd that god doth not only deny them heaven but deny it with a bitter derision , which is farre from that candor and goodnesse that dwelleth in him . m. hord's discourse at the first went no farther then to prove , that in substance it is all one to offer a curtesie under a condition not possible , and not to offer it at all . here this author addes that it is in circumstance a greate deale worse . for he saith it is a deniall joyned with a scoffe and derision , as was that of the iebusites . in my answer to the former part in m. hord i have shewed that the reason why salvation is proposed in scripture to be obtaind upon a condition to be performed by man , is because god intends to save those , whom he doth save after a manner a greable to their reasonable natures ; namely by instruction , in a law of works , in a law of faith , by admonition and exhortation strengthned with promises to the obedient , with threatnings to the disobedient . and albeit men are not able to performe this obedience of themselves , being disabled by that naturall corruption , which they have drawn from the loynes of our father , in whom our natures received a mortall blow , through his disobedience , and became disabled to performe any thing acceptable in the sight of god ( for they that are in the flesh cannot please god ) therefore the lord is ready according to the covenant of grace to circumcise the hearts of some , namely of his elect , to love the lord with all their hearts , and with all their soules , to put his spirit within them , to cause them to walke in his statutes , to keepe his judgments and doe them . it is true this offer of salvation is proposed to all within the church , whether elect or reprobate ; and no marvaile . for the ministers of god's word are not acquainted with the counsells of god , as touching the election or reprobation of any man in particular : therefore they preach unto all , but knowing full well that this their ministery shall be effectuall only to god's elect , as touching their salvation . therefore as they indure all things for the elect sake . so for the elects sake it is that they preach the whole counsell of god , according as the lord himselfe instructed paul saying , feare not , but speak & hold not thy peace ; for i am with thee , and none shall lay hold on thee for to hurt thee . for i have much people in this city . who are this people but the elect of god. yet god makes this use of preaching his word to all , that hereby excuse is taken from thē . for hereby it is made known unto them that a prophet hath been among them . as for the point of derision . first this authour prescribes unto god very demurely , that he must not deride him . yet will he thinke it lawfull full for himselfe to mocke a dogge offering to give some what unto him , when he meanes nothing lesse ; but man is growen so proud that he will take it in scorne to be mocked of any , yea of god himselfe , little thinking that he may well deserve to be derided and mocked . yet the scripture may teach us this , and that god will mocke some , and therein deale with them according to their works ; because i have called and ye refused ; i have stretched out mine hand and none would regard : but ye have despised all my counsell and would none of my correction , i will also laugh at your destruction , and mocke when your feare commeth . secondly i answer that man naturally is presumptuous of his own strength to believe , to repent ; and shall god then be censured for mocking him , when he calls upon him to believe , to repent ? dicere solet humana superbia si scissem , fecissem , sayth austin , this is the course of man's pride to say had i known it , i had done it . if they are sensible of this impotency , can they not say with austin , da domine quod jubes , & jube quod vis ; lord give what thou biddest , and then bid what thou wilt ? againe if god commands nothing , but what he hath power to command , as namely to believe what he saith , and to doe what he injoynes ; why should this be censured mockery in reference to man's disability to performe it , when this disability is brought upon him by the sinne of adam , in whom we all were , and in him we have all sinned ? and which is more ; what meanes this authour to carry the matter thus hand over head , as to talke of an impossible condition without all distinction ? dares he say , that faith and repentance are possible by power of nature ? or doth any of us deny it to be possible by grace ? if this be so it followeth that all the question between us should be drawen to this issue ; whether god gives the grace of faith and repentance unto all ; yet indeed the truth herein deserves to be put out of all question , it being apparent that , fides non est omnium , all men doe not believe . nay it is called in scripture the faith of god's elect : so that the , question is about the nature of that grace , without which faith and repentance cannot be performed . why doth not this authour expresse his meaning in this , and clearly professe what that grace is whereby the conditions of faith & repentance are made conditions possible ? his subdolous carriage throughout in concealing his tenet is sufficient to disparage his cause with all that are indifferent and judicious . the scripture plainly professeth that faith is the gift of god , repentance is the gift of god ; but as he carrieth the matter nothing lesse appeares , then that this is his opinion . yet i know he dares not in plaine termes oppose the cleare evidence of scripture in this . now if faith be the gift of god , & withall he gives it without difference to all thē all must believe , which is notoriously & palpably untrue . if he gives it only to some , thē all the rest are mocked by god according to this authours discourse ; as often as he saith unto them believe , and ye shall be saved . and to whom he saith this , to them he saith also , oh that there were such an heart in them to feare me &c. if he saith , he gives faith absolutely to none , but conditionally , and upon the same condition he is ready to give to all ; this is clearely to confesse that the grace of god is given according to man's workes . againe 't is god that worketh in us both the will and the deed , and that according to his good pleasure , if according to his good pleasure , how can it be said that it is according to the preparation of the creature ? then what condition can be devised whereupon god workes in us the will ? if he say the grace which god gives to all , and whereby to believe , to repent is made a thing possible unto all ( for thus we must proceed groaping after his meaning , he affecting nothing more then to sculke and earth himselfe in his concealements ) i answer first ; the scripture makes no mention of any such power given to any ; but to the contrary professeth of all persons unregenerate , that they cannot please god ; that they cannot discerne the things of god. co : . : that they cannot believe , that they cannot repent ro : : that they are not subject to the law of god nor can be . ly . the scripture plainly saith that faith is the gift of god , repentance is the gift of god ; it doth not say that the power to believe if they will is the gift of god. if he saith by faith is meant such a power , whereby a man may believe if he will , i prove the contrary ; then all men should have faith . for in this mans opinion , all men are indued with this power : but the apostle plainly saith that , all men have not faith . againe faith is described to be , the faith of god's elect ; but a power to believe if we will , this authour makes common to the elect with reprobates . moreover if to give power to believe if a man will , be to give him faith , then in as much as god gives power to sinne if he will , he may be said as well , that god gives sinne . adde to this that to have power to believe , if one will ; is rather nature then grace . for it is no more then posse fidem habere ; and this is the nature of man as austin testifies . posse fidem habere naturae est hominum , fidem habere gratiae est fidelium ; 't is the nature of man that he may have faith , but it is of the grace of the faithfull , that a man hath faith . and indeed if faith given us of god , did only inable us to believe , if we will ; it were farre inferiour to a morall vertue , which doth not give man power to be vertuous , if he will ; or to performe a vertuous act if he will : but makes him vertuous , and disposeth the will to vertuous acts only , and leaves him not indifferent , whether he will performe vertuous acts , or no. to returne then , if no other grace be required to free god from mocking and deriding his creature ; surely we are as free as our adversaries from making god to deride and mocke his creature . for we are ready to grant that all men may believe if they will , repent if they will with austin l. . de gen : cont : man : cap : . & de spiritu & liter â ad marcellin . cap : . & de praedest . in : sanct : cap : . and our reason is this . not to be able to doe that which a man will doe , is impotency merely naturall ; but the impotency that we speake of , which is hereditary to all mankind by reason of the fall , is impotency morall , and resident in the will of man. for who doubts but that the will to believe , is to believe ? for credimus si volumus : so the will to repent is to repent . for repentance in the root thereof is nothing else but the change of the will. and pelagius of three things proposed . posse , velle , & agere ; he willingly granted the first , to wit , posse bonum , to be from god ; but he denied the other two to be the works of god ; but of our free wills ; which if he had acknowledged to be the workes of god , as well as the first austin tells him that , ab apostolicâ doctrinâ abhorrere non videretur ; he should not seeme to vary from the doctrine of the apostles . and for ought i see this authour goes not one step beyond pelagius . he acknowledgeth that god doth perswade and exhort to believe ; so did pelagius . ibid. cap. . he saith also that god doth concurre to the act ; but so he doth in his opinion to every sinfull act ; so that this is but a generall concourse : and what pelagian was ever known to deny , but that god might have as great an hand in any good act , as in any naturall act ? now since we acknowledge all this as well as he ; what colour hath he to impute unto us , that we by our doctrine so fashion god's providence , as to make him deride and mock miserable people . though the jebusites did mock david , as this authour gives his word for it , ( though i doe not find that ribbi david kimhi , or piscator count it any derision , but a plaine representation of their confidence , that david was never able to take it , such was the strength of the tower● , that the weakest , even the blind and the lame were sufficient to defend it . ) though withall kimhi acquaints us with a strange story out of the jews darashe , of a covenant made between abraham and king abimelech , and that concerning not him alone , but his son and his nephew , to suffer them quietly to enjoy their own ; and that the nephew of that abimelech was alive at that time when david came to besiege that fort : and that therein the jebusites had erected two images , the one blind to represent i saack who in his old age was blind ; and the other lame representing jacob , who by wrestling with god became lame , and in the mouthes of these images was kept the covenant which was made between abraham and abimelech . the instance he gives of a proclamation which takes up the greatest part of this supplement ( as a great part of this authour's discourse , is spent in such insicete representations ) is most incongruous , not only to the matter whereunto it is applyed , but to the parts of it selfe . . to the matter whereunto it is applyed . for it is proposed in such a case , as men could not obtaine a certaine incorporation , though they much desired it . now such a thing is not incident to reprobates , namely that they cannot believe though they would for had they a will to believe , undoubtedly that would be accepted of god. then. it is incongruous to the parts of the simile it selfe . for incorporation only is precluded unto germans by the unrepealable law , he feignes without common understanding . for undoubtedly all lawes of men are repealable by the same authority , whereby they are made . and afterwards the condition of obtaining certaine bountifull gratuities , by vertue of the foresaid incorporation , is proposed most undecently , not of their being incorporated into that society , but of their will to be incorporated . now it is apparent that by the case feigned their incorporation only is precluded unto them , not their will to be incorporated . in the accommodation he saith , god hath made a decree ( by our doctrin ) that such men shall never believe . now what one of our divines can be produce to justifie this ? we say god hath decreed not to give them grace to work them unto faith , but to leave them unto themselves . and is not this authour of the same opinion ? nay doth he not extend it farther then we doe , even to the elect , as well as reprobates ? we say not so , but that his elect he doth not leave unto themselves to worke out their faith if they can , but workes them by his grace and holy spirit thereunto . himselfe seemes to be conscious of the falshood of this his imputation dealing upon the point of god's justice . sub-sect . . for having there proposed three causes why reprobates cannot justly be bound to believe ; the second of them was this in m. hord's discourse , because it is impossible that they should believe ; because god hath decreed they shall have no power to believe till their dying day . this reason is changed in this authour 's refining of that discourse ( as indeed all these reasons are changed by him more or lesse without replying upon ought that i have answered thereunto , but only putting out , or putting in at his pleasure , to cast a shew that the former discourse of m. hord's is not answered ; such is his subdolous cariage to undermine that truth , which he is not able to oppose in a faire manner with any sound reason ; least of all by evidence of scripture , that flying in his face at every turne ; and therefore his best wisdome is to shut his eyes against it . ) and here he sayth not in representing his second reason , that god hath decreed they shall have no power to believe , to their dying day ; but thus rather ; because it is not god's unfeigned will they shall believe . but now againe in this supplement of his , he returnes to the first , and saith that by our doctrine , god hath made a decree that such men shall never believe . quo teneam vultus mutantem protea nodo . but i confesse it is an honour to god's truth , that it cannot be opposed , but in so vile a manner . yet i have already shewed , that we deny not unto reprobates a power to believe if they will. we deny not the ministery of the word unto them , exhorting them to believe . we deny not but that whosoever hath a will to believe , or doth believe , god must necessarily concurre to the producing of that will , and that act of his . all this we grant , which is the uttermost whereunto this authour comes ; but over and above we say , that god doth not only give his elect a power to believe if they will , and perswade them to believe ; but that also he works them to believe , and not only concurres with them in producing gracious acts , but makes them to concurre with him also ; this is the grace , and this alone that he denies to reprobates . pag. . treating of the use and end of god's gifts , the authour hath an addition of some seven lines concerning the lord's supper , but nothing at all to purpose . pag. . of the fift section next following ; the passages out of the suffrages of our brittain divines in the synod of dort quoted by m. hord , here they are expressed , namely that there are certaine internall workes preparing a man to justification , which by the power of the word and spirit are wrought in the hearts of men not yet justified , such as are the knowledge of god's will , and sense of sinne , feare of punishment . now i have shewed that these our brittish divines goe much farther ; and yet in their fift article and fourth position , they professe of all such as are none of gods elect , that it is manifest they never really and truly attaine that change and renovation of the mind and affections , which accompanieth justification ; nay nor that which doth immediately prepare , and dispose unto justification . and therefore the preparation that this authour speaks of as out of them , must needs be a remote preparation . and withall they adde , that they never seriously repent , they are never affected with hearty sorrow for offending god , for sinning , neither doe they come to any humble contrition of heart , nor conceive a firme resolution not to offend any more . now let every sober person judge , whether god proceeding no farther with them then this , can be said to intend their conversion and salvation . the other position of theirs is this , those whom god by his word and spirit affecteth after this manner , those he truly and seriously calleth and inviteth unto conversion . i make no question , but whom god calleth , he calleth seriously , and whom he inviteth unto conversion , that is as i take it , unto repentance , he inviteth truly & seriously thereunto . but that god intendeth either their conversion or salvation , i utterly deny . for did he intend it , undoubtedly he would worke it ; for certainly this is in his power . faith is his gift , and repentance is his gift , and perseverance in both is his gift . and unlesse he gives faith and repentance we hold it impossible that any man should believe or repent . and what a monster is it in divinity to maintaine , that god's intentions are frustrated , which cannot be maintained without denying god's omnipotency ? for no man's intentions are frustrated , but because it lyeth not in his power to bring to passe the things intended by him . pag. . in the next section following is inserted a sentence of prosper which no man denies . it is this they that have despised god's inviting will , shall feele his revenging will , but it is rightly to be understood , namely of despising his inviting will all along ; and finally ; otherwise if they break of their contempt by repentance , there is mercy enough in store with god to pardon them , and his revengefull hand shall not be felt by them . pag. . and seventh section , concerning the use and end of god's gifts ; divers passages of our divines are mentioned , shewing the end of god's providence in affording his word unto reprobates . as first out of calvin , behold he directs his voice unto them that they may be the more deafe ; he kindles a light , but that they may be made more blind ; he giveth them a remedie ; that they might not be healed . now calvin herein points to that of esay . goe and say to the children of israel , hearing heare but understand not , seeing , see but perceive not . make the heart of this people fat ( or obstinate ) and make their eares heavy , and shut their eyes ; least they see with their eyes , and heare with their eares , and understand with their hearts , & convert and be healed and calvin doth but relate what the lord saith to esay : ecce vocem ad eos dirigit . behold ( by this place of the prophet esay ) to what end the lord sends his prophet to speake unto them . now if calvin doth herein misinterpret that place of the prophet esay , it became this author to except against his interpretation , and discover the unsoundnes of it ; but taking no such course , and consequently by his silence ( being an adversary ) justifying his interpretation ; while he reproacheth calvin in this particular , he reproacheth the holy ghost , whose words he represents delivered unto his prophet . the next passage is taken out of beza in his praelud . on the . to the rom : p. . where he sayth it ought not to seem absurd , that god unto reprobates , liuing in his church , doth offer grace in his word and sacraments . for he doth it not to this end , that they may be saved , but that they may have lesse excuse then others , and at length be more greviously punished . and indeed why should this seeme aliene from the course of gods providence revealed in his word , testifying that the invisible things of god , to wit his eternall power and godhead are made manifest by his works , to the ena , men might be without excuse . and what this excuse is . s. austin tells us saying , it is spoken of such an excuse , as men in their pride are wont to pretend saying , si scissem fecissem ; had i knowne it , i would have done it . and eze : . . the lord manifests the same end of his sending ezech : unto the jewes . for he told him , they would not heare . for they were a rebellious house , vet saith he , they shall know that there hath beene a prophet among them . and let every indifferent man judge whether the very place in iohn . ( if i had not come and spoken unto them , they should not have had sin , but now have they noe cloak for their sin , ) doth not justifye that conclusion which maccovius drawes therehence , namely that therefore god sent his son unto them , that by the contempt and hatred of his sonne they might procure unto themselves the greater damnation . for he professeth that by his comming and speaking unto them , all excuse was taken from them . and let every one judge whether contempt in such a manner doth not procure greater damnation . and old simeon professeth that christ should be set up , as to the rising of some ; so to the falling of others : and long before the lord professeth that he should be as a net , and a snare to both houses of israel . yet i am not of maccovius his mind in saying , that god proposeth his word unto reprobates to noe other end , but this : but certainly he proposeth it not unto them to the end that they should be saved by it . and let every sober man judge whether it be not better to ascribe such intentions unto the divine nature as are fulfilled , rather then such as are not fullfilled . p. . where he layes to our charge that our doctrine hinders piety and godly life sect : . he hath this passage inserted . it is absolutely decreed that devills shall be damned ; were it not a fruitlesse thing in them by prayers teares and endeavours to seeke to alter it ? it is also simply decreed that the soule of man shall be immortall : is it not a labour in vaine for any man to use meanes that his soule may be annihilated ? it is ordained that the sun shall rule the day and the moone the night : that the one shall finish his proper course in a yeare , the other in a month : would not a mans endeavour to make an alteration in these things be unprofitable and ridiculous . although that which i have said upon this section in answer to m. hord be sufficient to shew the absurditie of this authors discourse , yet i think good to accommodate what there i have delivered to this also , especially to the particular instance of divells . and first it is a thing worthy our consideration that he saith . it is absolutely decreed that divels shall be damned , now if this be true , then the divine decree concerning the damnation of divells is an absolute decree , now this decree is not temporall but eternall . now if the eternall decree of god concerning the damnation of divells be absolute , why should not gods eternall decree of the damnation of men be absolute also : let him mumble upon this argument and acquaint us with his answer thereunto when he thinks good . when he discourseth of the fruitlesse nature of the divells prayers and teares and endeavours to alter this decree , he seemes to me to suppose that the divells are not bereaved of their free-will to pray , and which were more then wonderfull in their state of innocencie , to shed teares and to performe holy endeavours ; and if this were true it were unreasonable for us to deny that arminians had the like power left unto them . but if they have no such freedome of will , what totter tooke this author to discourse of the fruitlesse exercise of such a power . would he not think our braine were crackt , if wee should tell him how fruitlesse his course would be to clamber up into the world of the moone , seeing it is as possible for him to be lunatick here , as well as there . yet if the divells have any such freedome of will left them whereby they may attaine to holynesse , their endeavours that way though fruitlesse in respect of the altering of gods decree , yet surely would not be fruitlesse in another respect . for better it were by farre , i should think for them to repent and submit to the will of god in suffering hell paines , then to blaspheme in suffering them . but be it so , that not only gods decree be absolute concerning their damnation ; but that their first sinne did put them quite out of the way , and is to them as death to men . yet such is not the condition of men . and albeit the decree of damnation both of divells and men be absolute , yet neither the one nor the other was decreed to be brought upon them absolutely , but upon the angells , in case they kept not their owne habitation : upon men in case they did not only sinne , but finally persevere in sinne without repentance : though in this respect there is no place for the repentance of angells , yet place there is for the repentance of men , and by repentance to avoid the wrath to come . and lastly , the divell knowes his condition to be irrecoverable , no man on earth knowes his estate to be so . for albeit according to our doctrine a man may be assured of his election : yet by our doctrine no man can be assured of his reprobation . adde this hereunto , although a man did know he were reprobated to damnation , yet not knowing to what degree and measure of damnation he is ordained , there is place to use his best endeavours in the way of civilitie and morality , that his damnation may be the lesse . in case he did know this also , yet place still remaines to be as morall as he can . for damnation joyned with a condition of better morallity , is better then damnation joyned with a condition of lesse morality . this may suffice as an answer to the other instances , which are farre more wild then the first : as touching the immortality of the soule which he saith is simply decreed ; and it is decreed to be immortall without any course to be taken by man to promote the immortality thereof : but doe any of our divines maintaine that god hath decreed our salvation in such sort , as to be brought to passe without any course to be taken by men of ripe yeares to promote their salvation ? what proportion is there beetween immortality & salvation . god intends salvation to no man of ripe yeares , but by way of reward of faith , repentance , obedience and good works . doth god bestow immortality upon the soule by way of reward ? was not the soule of man immortall assoone as it was created ? is such the salvation of gods elect ? and what giddinesse possest the spirit of this author when he discourseth of the vaine labour of any man , that should use meanes that his soule should be annihilated ? supposing that such meanes there are , and may be used , by the forme of his speech , when he sayth , that it is labour in vaine for any man to use such meanes . as for that which followeth of the sun and moone . an instance of the same nature hath been given in this very section and an answer thereunto accommodated in my refutation of m hords discourse , which this author could not be ignorant of , as appeares by his altering and changing it almost throughout yet takes no notice thereof to reply thereunto , but keeps himselfe as still as a sow in beanes , thinking it his safest course to be silent . the truth is , god ( we say ) bestowing salvation and inflicting damnation proceeds according to a law , which he hath given unto man : but not so in the giving or denying grace , not so in shewing mercy on some and hardning others , but according to the mee●e pleasure of his will. it were farre more congruous to accommodate the instances he gives to the divine proceedings in this particular . but here he dares not budge , least his pelagian spirit should bee manifested to all the world , in maintaining that not only in conterring salvation , and inflicting damnation , he proceeds according to mens works , but also in giving and denying grace . p. . two lines are inserted a little above the latine verses , but of no moment distinct from the rest . p. . section the . of the crimination last save one , where he saith that three things are usually answered to vindicate our opinion from this crimination , but he conceales who they be , that thus answer : yet would not be thought to feigne it . and the first of these is this that many of them which believe and defend this doctrine are holy and good men , &c. now here comes in that which he inserts . the like defence to this did the epicures of old make in favour of their sensuall and swinish doctrine , which was , that happinesse consisted in pleasure . they said that many of their sect were honest men , and so much tully granted to be true , but with exception still against their doctrine . i take , saith he epicurus himselfe to be an honest man , yea and many epicures have been and are faithfull in freindship , square and constant men in all conditions of life , ordering themselves and their lives , not by pleasure , but by duty . but saith he , this proceeded not from the principles of their opinion , but frō their own vertuous inclinations ; & the force of honesty by their so doing appeared to be more prevailing in them , then the force of pleasure , which they pleaded for . a little after he hath words to the same purpose ; as other mens doctrines are esteemed to be better then their deeds ; so these mens deeds seem to me to be better then their doctrine . like to this answer of tully to the defenders of epicurisme , will i shape mine . i nothing doubt , but this authour pleased himselfe well in this comparison , and others likewise of his own sect . for like lettice , like lips , yet all this is carried with a shew of charity , in acknowledging the holinesse forsooth , and goodnesse of their oposites ; but it ends in this comparison , right epicurus like , whose morality ( forsooth ) was pleaded to countenance his sensuall and swinish doctrine . but whatsoever our lifes be , for testimony whereof we nothing desire to be beholding to the charity of our opposites ; yet surely our doctrin concerning the absolutenes both of election , grounded upon no other foundation then this , that grace is not conferred according unto workes , as austin testifies ; and of reprobation grounded accordingly upon no other foundation then this , that grace is not denied according unto workes ; shall be found no swinish doctrine , but the very truth of god. and let them that oppose it looke well to their waies , least they be not found goatish together with their doctrine at the day of judgment . but how comes this authour to be so stupid in reading cicero , and so little understanding him ; as in these words to conceive , that he professeth himselfe to have a good opinion of epicurus ? i confesse i marked it the more diligently , because i remember well the comparison that plutarch makes between the vertuous gloriation of epaminondas his mother , and the vile gloriation of epicurus his mother , professing she never saw an happier day , then when she saw her son epicurus generating , cum cyzezena meretriculâ , operis cum polyano divisis ; unlesse this were the morality of her son , wherein shee gloried that he was not so jealous , but that he could admit a corrivall in the satisfaction of his filthy lusts . and indeed i had also observed other where , that he was a very temperate man , but to this end , that he might take the greater pleasure in the flesh , his senses being the more quick , when they were not clogged and overcome with surfeit . but come we to cicero his judgment . he takes notice that epicurus was commended as comis in amicitiis tuendis , a man of a faire nature in maintaining freindship ; yet ( saith he ) though these things were true ( for i affirme nothing ) he was not acute enough . i think this is spoken in reference to his doctrine nothing answerable to this commendation of him . for he measured freindship by profit , as in that very book cicero relateth . then he takes notice of another commendation given of him , in these words , at multis se probavit , he approved himselfe to many ; et quidem jure fortasse , and truly for good cause perhaps . this is cicero his concession with a perhaps . but observe what he brings in upon the back of this ; sed tamen non gravissimum est testimonium multitudinis ; but the testimony of the multitude ( the many ) is not most weighty , or most considerable . for in every art or study , or any science , or in vertue it selfe , every thing that is best , is most rare . then follow the words which this authour alseadgeth not , ac mihi quidem videtur , quòd ipse vir bonus fuit . and to me truly it seemes that he was a good man ; this had been to contradict himselfe , having formerly said , nihil affirmo , i affirme nothing ; he takes into consideration what others said of him , but as for him , he would say nothing of him neither in commendation , nor vituperation . but his words runne thus , ac mihi quidem , quòd & ipse bonus vir fuit , & multi epicurei fuerunt , & hodie sunt , & in amicitiis fideles ( for it seemes indeed that he and polyaenus cum cyziz●n● meretriculà were very faithfull one to the other ) & in omni vita constantes & graves , nec voluptate sed consilio officia moderantes ; hoc videtur , ( here comes in videtur and not till now ) major vis honestatis & minor voluptatis . he still affirmes nothing of the life of epicurus , but taking that which others affirmed of him , and admitting it , saith hoc videtur major vis honestatis & miner voluptatis : this testimony of others concerning these particulars did argue more force of honesty , & lesse of pleasure . ita enim vivunt quidam , ut eorū vita probetur refellatur oratio for so some doe live , that their life is approved , but their opinions condemned and on this point only ( to wit concerning his opinion ) had cicero to deale with epicurus at this time ; atque ut caeteri existimantur dicere melius , quàm facere : sic ●i mihi videntur facere melius , quàm dicere . and as others are thought to speak better then they live ; so these seeme to me to live better then they speake . by these he meanes not epicurus , or epicureans , but those some , of whom he spake immediatly before . and whether this be not the true meaning of cicero , i appeale to the judgment of every sober man , that shall consider his words . and to requite this authour , and pay him in his own coyne ; i will not tell him what one of his own sect hath given forth concerning one that preached in a great place , namely that his auditory should professe , that the authour must needs be an arminian , he preached so honest a sermon ; though on the contrary i have heard of a greate arminian of cambridge , that he should professe to a friend of his , comming to him to conferre with him , and take him off from his opinion , if it might be , saying in the close that it was not for the honesty of their conversation who maintained the same , that he was of the same mind ; and gave his reason for it out of his own experience , which i will not mention . but i will make bold to represent what i have read of the pelagians , to answer this authour , and so to recompence him in the way of charity . for chrysostome placeth pelagius inter viros piè ac sanctè magnaque cum tolerantiâ viventes , amongst men living piously and holily , and with great patience ; as vossius observes cap : . hist : pelag : and claudius menardus before him in his notes upon austin's book against iulian the pelagian . austin in his epistle acknowledgeth paulinus to have loved him as the servant of god. and in his retractions he professeth saying , pelagii ipsius nomen non sine laude posui , quia vita ejus à multis praedicabatur : i made mention of pelagius his name not without commendation ; for as much as his life was magnified by many . amd in his third booke de peccat : meritis & remiss : c : . he sayth , the report that went of him was as of an holy man , and one that had profited much in christianity . i find likewise good commendations given of coelestius also and iulian the pelagian : and i make no question but an honest and pious man may be sowred with the leaven of pelagianisme , in that way of arminianisme ere he is aware , but god may take them off from it ere they dye : though the eager opposers of god's truth this way , even by such as were termed semipelagians , prosper spares not to call vasa irae , vessells of wrath , in his epistle to ruffinus ; and the exiled bishops of africa in their synodicall epistle , stile them no better then vasa irae , vessels of wrath . and upon the conclusion of the synod of palestine what tumults were raised , and what abominable acts were committed by the party of pelagius , is set down in part both by austin , in the end of his booke de gestis pelagii , and in a certaine epistle of innocentius pope of rome . to conclude ; leviathan god's enemy is represented in scripture , as a crooked serpent . it pleased king iames to stile arminius sometimes the enemy of god. and austin i am sure stiles the pelagians , inimici gratiae dei ; the enemies of god's grace . and no marvaile if they cary themselves like crooked serpents , turning and winding for their advantage . i have laboured to find out the meanders of this authour , which i little suspected at the first , and to meet with him . every where , and encounter him in his greatest fastnesse : and let the indifferent judge whether every where he be not found to hold a lye in his right hand . i would to god his eyes were opened , that he might see how he forsakes his own mercies , by forsaking the fountaine of living waters , to digge unto himselfe pits , even broken pits that can hold no water . while he looks to be saved by no other grace inherent , then such as whereby he hath power to believe if he will , repent if he will. a lamentable condition , that a man of understanding , and knowledge , and good morality should be thus blinded , nothing perceiving that this is mere nature , and not grace . but what infatuation hath seazed upon the christian world , when such discourses are magnified as sound and excellent ; yea rare peeces , and unanswerable ? let us give god the glory of keeping us in our right wits and senses ; otherwise even flyes with us shall goe for elephants , and the very illusions of satan shall be advanced , as strange performances , not only of sober speculations ; when they are equally estranged both from soundnesse and sobriety ; such as all along looke a squint upon god's word ; yet seldome take notice thereof , or are conformed thereunto ; but rather proceed in manifest opposition thereunto , and withall are found clearly devoid of all sound reason , though thereof pelagians have alwaies vaunted most , but these vaunts are but wind , and prove no more substantiall , then the imagination of a vaine thing . finis . an answer to a letter of d. h. concerning gods decrees definite or indefinite ; by dr. twisse . sir , your letter hath two parts , the one concerning the decree of god , especially in comparison between a decree indefinite and definite ; the other concerning the election of angels : of both in order . i. concerning the first , i will endeavour to satisfie you my way ; and if that succeeds not , to gratifie you your own way . my conceit of a decree indefinite , proposed digress . . cap. . you preferre as more suitable to my manner of ordering gods decrees . three reasons there i proposed why i durst not imbrace that conceit . . the first was , because it seems to be of a more imperfect nature then is fit to be attributed to god. to this is answered , that we need not to attribute any such decree to god , but onely to resolve a definite decree of god into two conceits , according to our apprehension , whereof the one is indefinite , the other definite ; as in gods purpose to make peter and paul vessels of mercy , there are included two conceits in our apprehension ; the one indefinite , to wit , to make some vessels of mercy ; the other definite , to wit , that peter and paul shall be two of them . you seem to approve of this . now i have cause to doubt of the soundnesse of this , for these reasons , . if no such decree can be attributed to god , then in vain doe we discourse of the priority thereof before other decrees of god , which indeed are attributed to him , and that decently . and indeed all the decrees whereof we dispute are truely attributed unto god , though they have not that distinction one from another in god as the like decrees are distinguished in man. and an indefinite decree , relishing of imperfection , both in that respect cannot be decently attributed unto god , as also because it doth imply an indefinite and confuse knowledge in god. . the priority of decrees in god , is onely secundum rationem , and this durand expounds most clearly in this manner , quando ratio unius sumitur ab altero , in . dist . . q. . so ratio mediorum sumitur à ratione finis . but ratio decreti definiti non sumitur a ratione deoreti indefiniti . because god intends such an end , therefore god doth appoint such and such means : but it cannot be said , that , because god doth intend to make some indefinitely to be vessels of mercy , therefore he doth intend that peter and paul shall be two of them . . my two other objections are these , indefinites are before definites onely in such sort as communia are priora specialibus , and this is onely prioritate naturae generantis , non intendentis ; and we speak of priority in intention , not in the way of generation . and again , that which is first in the way of generation , is last in intention ; and therefore this makes rather against it , than for it . to this you answer , that rather on the contrary universalia are priora singularibus , non tam natura generante , quam intendente . for homo prius intenditur quam socrates : non enim species est propter individuum , sed individuum propter speciem . or , if this be not true in universalibus physicis , yet is it in politicis sive aggregatis , which have a more resemblance to our present matter . to this i answer , . the comparison we speak of between a decree indefinite and definite , is not the same with a comparison between the species and the singular ; but only as between singulars and singulars ; singulars indefinitely proposed as aliqui , and singulars proposed definitely , as hic & ille , peter and paul. now though individuum be propter speciem , as that which nature intends principally ; and individua for the maintenance of the species : yet is it not so congruous to say , that particulars definite are for particulars indefinite , &c. the instance i gave in reducing it to a comparison between generalia and specialia , was to bring it , as neere as i could , to such a state wherein the evidence of truth might plead for it selfe . as indeed it is manifest , that generalia are onely priora specialibus quoad naturam generantem , specialia priora generalibus quoad naturam intendentem ; which i delivered out of the remembrance of my old philosophy , as a thing which i conceived to be without question . zabarell de methodis lib. . cap. . ordo naturae non unus est , sed multiplex , vel saltem duplex : non solum enim simplicia sunt naturae priora compositis , sed etiam composita simplicibus , ut ex aristotele colligimus , in cap. . lib. . de partibus animalium : si namque ordinem naturae intelligamus habita ratione generationis naturae , elementa sunt priora misto , mistum animali , animal homine ; quod si per ordinem naturae intelligamus ordinem perfectionis seu ordinem scopi & intentionis naturae , homo est natura prior animali , animal misto , & mistum elementis . but i confesse the case is different between a species and the particulars thereof , whether we consider nature particular , or nature universall : for , as for nature particular , though it intends and works onely for a particular like it selfe ; yet , whereas particulars may be infinite , and it is found to have no power to produce one particular rather then another ; this consideration hath puzled many in enquiring how it comes to passe that this particular agent brings forth this particular effect at such a time ; whereas he was indifferent to have brought forth any one particular of many thousands in that kind . and , after suarez in his metaphysicks hath tryed many waies hereabouts , at length resolves upon ariminensis his invention , who reduceth it to the determination of gods will : and this conceit , after suarez , is embraced with great approbation by hurtado de mendoza . which because it concerneth a manner of gods concourse , and that a very strange one , as they expound it ; i have taken occasion to consider it in a peculiar digression . so that in that case the particular produced is not intended by nature at all ( as being indifferent to any ) but left to be determined by the will of god. and as for nature universall , whose end is the maintenance of the universe in the severall kinds of the parts thereof ; it likewise , so there be particulars succeeding whereby the species rerum are maintained , regards not at all , whether these particulars be produced or others . but these intentions are not answerable to the intentions of god , which are altogether of particulars , whereupon mans understanding works in drawing therehence unities specificall and genericall , according to that of aristotle , animal aut nibil est aut posterius est . and navarrettus , writing of divine concourse ; suppo●endum est id quod solent logici & metaphysici dicere de unitate universa●● quae non est unitas positiva sed negativa : non enim universale est positive unum in multis sed cum reperiatur plurificatum in multis , & non magis determinatum ad unum quam ad alterum , habet in se quandam indifferentiam , non quidem positivam respectu multorum , atque adeo non habet unit atem positivam ; sed negative se habet ad illa multa , & consequenter , est unum negative in multis , hoc est , habet unitatem quae non magis reperitur in uno inferiorum quam in altero . but yet the case i say in present consists not in comparison between a species and the singulars thereof , but between particulars and particulars ; either as indefinitely considered under the notion of aliqui , or definitely under the notions of hic & ille . but you think in universalibus politicis , as in the gathering of an army , or erecting of a colledge , the truth you speak of is more apparent , and the resemblance more congruous to the matter in hand . let us consider them . a certain number of souldiers for compleating of an army i confesse is intended first , afterwards a choyce of persons : so the maintenance of a certain number of schollars is intended first , and afterwards they proceed to the election of schollers . here is totum per aggregationem , but it is by aggregation of parts in a certain kind , which is of greatest consideration , to wit , of parts succeeding one another , as a river is said to be one by succession of parts which never return . all which parts are impossible to be subject to the consideration of the founder or generall , because the colledge continueth long after the founder is dead , and so may the army also , one generall succeeding another by the appointment of the state. a more proper resemblance is found in a man purposing to distribute a summe of money to a certain numbr of persons : as , put the case , twenty pound to forty persons , as a gentleman hath dealt with our town . the choyce of such persons as are most necessitous he leaveth to some persons of trust . now , if the gentleman himselfe knew of himselfe every person in the town , and their necessitous condition ; from the first undoubtedly he would appoint , not a certain number indefinitely to receive it , but assigne rather such persons particularly on whom it should be bestowed . and in like sort a generall were it in his power to leavy whom he list , and withall knew for certain every mans sufficiency , he would from the first resolve upon and designe , not onely such a number , but such particular persons also for that service : and , that in the ordinary course it is otherwise , this proceeds from such an imperfection as is not incident unto god. and last of all , both the generall and the founder have respect to fitnesse in them whom they choose , which it is not in their power to procure . but god hath power to provide himselfe both of fitnesse and of persons also to that service whereto he is pleased to designe them . yet didacus alvarez seems to acknowledge such an indefinite decree , and he is gravis author i confesse : and he plainly professeth , that permissio peccati prop●r quod quis damnatur est effectus reprobationis . whence it manifestly followeth , first , that the reprobation of infants as many as die in originall sinne in their infancy , cannot premise the foresight of originall sinne , because they undergoe condemnation onely for originall sinne . secondly , that no mans reprobation can premise originall sinne , because every man that undergoes condemnation , undergoes it not for actuall sinnes onely , but originall also : yet this tenet of his he delivereth not obiter , but maintaines it eagerly by argument . as for this of an indefinite degree , he toucheth onely by the way , without so much as explication of his meaning therein . and again in that discourse of his he hath some other strange conceits , as i have shewed in my first digression upon election : in the perusing whereof at this time it seems , you are . as for beza , that which i there delivered is meerly by collection : but what his opinion was , may appeare by his own expression , de praedestinatione , in . ad rom. in these words , denique verbum istud [ faciendi ] & nomen [ luti ] ac [ massae ] adhue informis , manifeste mihi quidem videtur declarare , deum in hac similitudine nobis preponi , de humanototo genere in primo illo homine , protoplasto propterea vocato , condendo statuentem ; unde singuli homines ad finem usque seculorum propagarentur , eo jam tum consilio , ut in unis quidem , quos jam tum in libro vitae suis temporibus nascituros , eligendos , vocandos , credituros , justificandos , glorificandos describebat , ad salutis decus per gratiam in christo evebendis : in aliis vero per contrarios gradus in aeterni exitii dedecus juste praecipitandis , gloriam suam patefaceret . in like sort piscator in his disputation de objecto praedestinationis , defines predestination this , praedestinatio est aeternum dei decretum quo constituit condere homines ad diversos fines speciales , nempe alios ad fruendum salute aeterna , alios vero ad sentiendum cruciatus aeternos , seu ad aeternum exitium : itemque constituit permittere , ut isti omnes , integri conditi , in peccatum laberentur ; idque propterea , ut quos conditurus erat ad salutem servaret ex misericordia ; quos vero ad exitium , puniret ex justitia : & denique constituit ex lapsis illos quos conditurus erat ad salutem , servaret ex misericordia , quos vero ad exitium , puniret ex justitia : ( all which cannot be understood but of persons definite ) & denique constituit exlapsis illos quos ad salutem conditurus erat , eligere ad hoe , ut eos ex misericordia servaret ; quos vero ad exitium , reprobare ad hoc , ut eos ex justitia puniret : ( this likewise cannot be understood but of persons definite ) atque ita omnibus istis modis gloriam tum misericordiae suae parcentis , tum justitiae punientis , tum vero imprimis potestatis suae summae patefacere . and by these passages appeares the errour of my construction both of beza and piscators meaning ; for it was grounded upon supposall that election in them both signified an internall act in god , the very decree of god , which is eternall : but here it appeares they took election for an externall and temporall act , and yet distinct from vocation : of which opinion of piscator i have considered . digress . . de praedestinatione . and here it appeares that beza had entertained some such conceit , as when he saith nasoituros , eligendos , vocandos , credituros , justificandos , &c. and indeed i well remember him to distinguish between electio & decretum eligendi . yet now , to gratifie you your own way : i am content to leave that which i have said in that digress . . of an indefinite decree as it lieth ; and to propose the reasons alledged against it onely by way of disputation , not by way of assertion , and leave it indifferent unto the reader to judge as he shall think most agreeably . and to confesse a truth unto you , it is but lately i came to this order ; following the rigorous tenet before as seemeth most consonant to reason , though harsh to mens affections ; and being but lately fallen upon it , i am apt to conceive , that something may be wanting to the full clearing of the truth in this point ; a way whereunto i hope i have opened : yet if you shall think it inconvenient , i shall be content to pretermit it wholly , and leave out all my digressions of this argument , or any other . ii. now touching angels , i pray let not ought that i have written make you sorry for ought that you have delivered touching the election of angels : and doe not you conceive of me amisse , as if i did conceive you to harbour any ill opinion thereabouts : for i professe i doe not , neither have you given me any cause ; yet from nine yeeres of age i have known you . the first time i wrote of that , i onely said , it seemed strange unto me ; my reason was , because i never knew any , either by writing or otherwise , protestant , or papist , sound in maintaining mans election by grace , but that in like sort he maintained the election of angels to be of grace . and whereas you professed otherwise onely as an opponent : i conceived you did it but as my selfe or any other schollar will doe , to try the uttermost of anothers strength with whom we dispute . but when the second time you wrote hereon , you professed to doubt whether arminius acknowledged any election at all of angels ; that seemed to me as strange , because i am perswaded that no arminian or lutheran denieth the election of angels : though like enough they are apt to fashion it according to their opinion of the election of men . as for the construction of that place in timothy touching the elect angels , i could not ascertain my selfe in what sense it might be conceived to proceed without acknowledging their election , and i was loath to divine at random . now as you expresse your selfe herein more particularly ; so will i particularly make answer . first , i grant that a conditionall decree is no election . but seeing it is impossible but god should foresee , on whose part the condition would be performed , and on whose part not ; herehence it followeth , that god must accordingly elect the one , and reprobate the other : and so there must be acknowledged even an election of angels after their manner . like as the arminians , beside that conditionall predestination of men you speake of , doe acknowledge a precise election of some upon foresight of their obedience , and reprobation of the other upon foresight of their disobedience . touching the exposition of that , tim. . . i have consulted hemingius , a man as erroneous in the point of election as any lutheran ; yet he interpreteth the place thus , hos electos ad discrimen reproborum vocat . i grant it denotes the dignity of their persons , but still in respect of choice : as when we say a choice book , a choice jewell , as much as to say , which a man would make choice of , and preferre before many : so the elect angels are so called in respect of choice , which choice to my understanding can have no congruous reference , but to the choice of god. it is true we have , nothing like , such scripture evidence touching the election and reprobation of angels , as of men. but whereas in these points both scripture evidence and light of christian reason doe concurre ; so the light of christian reason doth make it as evident on the part of angels , as on the part of man ; namely , that nothing can possibly be the cause of gods will or predestination quoad actum volentis , or praedestinantis . and aquinas , as you have heard , professeth , that never any man was so mad as to professe , that any thing without god could be the cause of predestination , quoad actum praedestinantis ; and herein you your selfe agree . now touching austin ; i am glad you have lighted upon him . i do ●b● not but he shall perswade you in this point , though i could not . and first i will accommodate an answer to your allegations ; secondly , i will endeavour to shew clearly his opinion in this point . your first allegation is , caeteri autem per ipsum liberum arbitrium in veritate steterunt ; but your selfe perceive it might be answered , that this might be delivered inclusa gratia speciali . and it may be proved that this phrase of speech doth not exclude speciall grace : for in the same chapter it is afterwards said of man thus , in quo statu recto ac sine vitio , si per ipsum liberum arbitrium manere voluisset . here you must not exclude speciall grace in this case ; for si manere voluisset , undoubtedly this will of his had been wrought by speciall grace , as austin manifesteth in the chapter following : for he distinguisheth of two graces or two adjutories , the one was , ut posset pernianere si vellet , the other was , ut vellet quod potuit ; his words are these , est in nobis per hane dei gratiam , in bono recipiendo & perseveranter tenendo , non solum posse quod volumus , veruns etiam velle quod possumus : quod non fuit in homine primo , unum enim horum in illo fuit , alterum non fuit . namque ut reciperet bonum , gratiâ non egedat , quia nondum perdider at : ut autem in eo permaneret , egebat adjutorio gratiae , sine quo iâ emnino non posset : & acceperat posse si vellet , sed non habuit velle quod posset : nam si babuisset perseverasset . but you bring a second place to prove that angels could have stood by their free-will , secluding speciall grace , and that is this , credimus dominum deum — sie ordinasse angelorum & hominum vitam ut in ea prius ostenderet quid posset eorum liberum arbitrium , deinde quid posset suae gratiae beneficium , justitiaeque judicium . i grant the angels had power to stand if they would , and power to fall if they would ; and this power was manifested in the standing of the one , and in the fall of the other . but herehence it followeth not , that therefore the act of standing was not of gods grace . but you will say the benefit of grace was afterwards manifested : and i answer , that grace was the grace of confirmation , opposite to the obduration of the evill angels ; which grace of confirmation , though it were manifested after the obedience of the good angels , consisting in assurance that they shall never fall ; yet herehence it followeth not , that their standing was not by grace , though that grace whereby they stood was different from that grace whereby they were confirmed : for before their obedience , so they stood , as that withall they might fall ; but since their obedience they now so stand , that they cannot fall . now for austins opinion hereabouts , it is plaine enough from other places . de civ . dei , lib. . cap . aut minorem acceperunt amoris divini gratiam , quam illi qui in eadem perstiterunt , aut si utrique boni aequaliter creati sunt , istis mala voluntate cadentibus , illi amplius adjuti ad eam beatitudinis plenitudinem pervenerunt . so that he doth manifestly acknowledge , that the good angells had such an adjutorium which the wicked had not : whereupon leonardus coquaeus , neither jesuit nor dominican , but an augustinian , commenting , writes in this manner : ea ratione intelligitur majus beneficium collatum angelis honis quam malis , etsi enim gratiam aequalem habitualem ab initio sint consecuti , it a tamen efficax fuit motio divina et auxilium dei speciale in angelis sanctis , ut in deunt toti converterentur , persisterent in bono , et beatitudinem eandem assequerentur ; non ex vi libertatis arbitrii certe factum est , ut it a differenter afficerentur , et quod gratia fuerit efficax in his et non in istis , deo maxime tribuendum ; et ex duobus bominibus aequaliter affectis , si unus salvetur , alius vero damnetur , intelligo semper majus auxilium gratiae collatum ei qui fit salvets , idque cum augustino hoc loco , & passim , ubi de hac materia disputat , neque totum id refero in libertatem arbitrii , quod unus velit consentire et respondere gratiae , alius non ; facit enim etiam ut velimus , et consentiamus : neque infallibilem illam nostram consensionem puto tantum ex infallibili praescientia dei ; imo si per impossibile secludamus omnem praescientiam dei , ipsa gratia ex se infallibiliter movet hominem vel etiam angelum , ut , licet non necessitate coactionis , necessitate tamen immutabilitatis efficax ex se sit , et gratia dei magis in uno quam in altero ; et quod unus convertatur , alius non , quod uni detur auxilium efficax , in alio sit quidem sufficiens , minime tamen consequatur suum effectum , mysterium esse ubique docet augustinus , at si posita aequali gratia qua unus converteretur , alius non , id ex solo consensu vel d●ssensu liberi arbitrii penderet , nullum certe mysterium in●sse mihi videretur . neque hic reddit augustinus causam eur ex angelis alij salvati fuerint , alij minime , quod hos deus praescierit salvandos vel cooperaturos suae gratiae , alios minime cooperaturos ; sed quia qui salvati sunt , vel majorem acceperunt divini amoris gratiam , vel certe si aequaliter boni creati sunt , id est , in aequali gratia , illi amplius adjuti fuerint : adeo ut negotium salutis angelorum benorum in majus auxilium gratiae referat ; ut , quod alij cadant et non respondeant gratiae divinae , eique non cooperentur ; id quidem ascribendum sit libero horum arbitrio : quod vero in aliis gratia sit efficax , ade●que illi cooperentur , ipsi deo potissimum tribuendum sit . than which i never found a more illustrious testimony for the prerogative of gods grace in , and soveraignty over his creatures in any thomist or dominican , that at this day hath maintained the cause of god , ( as bradwardine calls it ) against the jesuits . neither did i ever take notice of the place before , but by occasion of this present search to give you satisfaction concerning the opinion of austin ; onely rested contented with that which i supposed to be the common opinion of all , that the case is the same as touching the operation of gods grace both in angells and men , and christ in scripture is accounted the head of angells as well as of men . but that whole chapter in austin , lib. . de civit . dei . cap. , is worth any mans reading , where he disputes the case at large , where he hath another sentence more illustrious then the former , this ; et cumid egit eorum voluntas bona ut non ad seipsos , qui minus erant , sed ad illum qui summe est , converteretur ( hence is taken i guesse that conceit of master hookers , that the fall of angells was the converting the contemplation of their minde from god upon themselves ) eique adbaerentes magis essent , ejusque participatione sapienter beate que viverent , quid aliud estenditur nisi volunt atem quamlibet bonam , inopem fuisse in solo desiderio remansuram ( inopem remansuram , a pretty phrase unable to remaine ) nisi ille qui bonam naturam ex nihilo sui capacem fecerat , ex seipso feceret implendo meliorem , prius faciens excitando avidiorem . if you get any thing by my conference i am glad , i assure you i get by yours , both touching the clearing of austins opinion hereabouts , and others concurrence also , wherein i doe much rejoyce ; and the rather , because , as you may observe , i have hitherto proceeded thereupon , rather by supposition than of confirmation . another place to this purpose i finde alleadged out of his enchirid. cap. . hac sunt magna opera domini exquisita in omnes voluntates ejus ; et tam sapienter exquisita , ut cum angelica et humana natura peccasset , id est , non quod ille , sed quod veluit ipsa , fecisset , etiam per eandem creature voluntatem ( qua factum est quod creator noluit ) impleret ipse quod voluit , ben● utens et malis tanquam summe bonus , ad eorum damnationem quos juste praedectinavit ad poenam , et ad eorum salutem quas benigne praedestinavit ad gratiam . but this hath but a touch , and that subject to ambiguous interpretation , the other is more full and cleare . i come unto the theses . you desire i would shew you in a word where your errour is in these , but you may remember what one professed sometimes , namely that ad quaestionem longam od●rat responsionem brevem , yet i will endeavour to satisfie you in this also first , and afterwards so to satisfie as i may satisfie my selfe also . first therefore , my briefe satisfaction as it were in a word shall consist in two points . . you have but nine theses , and the eighth is as a succinct recapitulation of all that went before , and the conclusion there mentioned is no more than that which every one grants , namely this ; that god did decree first to produce that subject , and afterward to worke such an effect thereupon : and indeed it is an ordinary course to confound the order of execution with the order of intention . zanchius his definition of praedestination i doe exceedingly approve of , answerable to this of yours , for thus it lyeth , generalis , bocest , omnium hominum praedestinatio est aeternum &c. dei decretum , quo apud se ab aterno decrevit , primum quidem omnes homines tum creare ad sui imaginem justos , tum ut in peccatum a satana tentati suo libero arbitrio labe entur , permittere : deinde b●● rum alios liberare , et liberatos spiritu suo comitari , et tandem aeterna vita donari ; alios tum indurare , tum aeterno exitio perdere ; idque ut in illis divina bonitas et misericordia , in istis autem divina potentia et justitia declaretur , atque ita in omnibus deus glorificetur . where , if you marke it well , you shall find he makes no order between the decrees of creation , permission of sin , liberation and salvation on the one side , of induration and damnation on the other side , but onely between creation it selfe and permission of sin , and liberation it selfe and salvation on the one side , and dereliction and damnation on the other side , all which he considers as meanes , and in the last place notes the end of all to be the patefaction of gods glory in goodnesse and mercy on the one side , and of his power and justice on the other . . againe , in your first thesis containing the maine body of your tenet , you will have the foresight of the subject , or occasion , whereupon any thing is decreed absolutely to be wrought , alwayes to goe before the decree it selfe , as well as the decree of the end goeth before the decree of the meanes . the irregularity whereof as touching god ( though as touching mans decrees i confesse it is right that you speake ) i will shew as briefly as i can before i answer your reason brought for confirmation of it . . if the foresight of the subject and occasion goes before the decree of working upon the subject ; then much more must the decree of making the subject , as also of making or permitting the occasion , goe before the decree of working upon the subject , and upon such an occasion , ( for no subject whereupon god workes can be without gods making , but it is nothing so with man , who findes subjects whereupon to worke rather than makes them ) now this is a thing impossible . for , . first , nothing is first in intention but the end , and 't is not possible that the subject or occasion should be the end whereunto god workes upon the subject thus or thus : . secondly , that which is first in intention is last in execution . and therefore if the making of the subject , and permitting of the occasion whereupon god meanes to worke , were first in intention , it should be last in execution , that is , god should first worke upon the subject before he had made the subject , or permitted the occasion whereupon he workes . but yet i confesse if you have a reason for what you say , unlesse you may receive some satisfactory answer unto that reason of yours , it will be a very hard matter to satisfie you ; therefore i come to the consideration of your reason , which is this . the foresight of a thing is nothing but the consideration of it tanquam reipsa & certo futurum . but whoso will resolve absolutely to work such an effect upon such a definite subject , or to make such an use of such a particular event , must consider that subject and that event tanquam reipsa futurum : for else his decree will be but conditionall . to this , i answer , . first , according to their opinion , that are accounted the most rigid interpreters of predestination . . your proposition is most sound . . as for your assumption , which you suppose to be true , they suppose to be utterly untrue ; as directly contrary to the most generall rules touching the order of things in intention , and execution : and alphonsus mendoza takes upon him to prove at large , that the supernaturals of peter and paul were intended before their naturals . . the onely reason ( saving the plausibility of the proposition it selfe ) to justifie it , seems to be this , god cannot worke upon a subject , unlesse the subject first be , and that occasion also whereupon he works ; therefore god cannot intend to work upon a subject unlesse first he intend to produce that subject , and permit ( at least ) the occasion whereupon he intends to work . as much as to say , because i cannot ride to london without a horse , therefore i cannot intend to ride to london , unlesse first i intend to get me a horse . whence it manifestly followeth , that in execution i must first ride to london , and afterward get me an horse to that purpose . and the confounding of the order of execution with the order of intention , seems to be the cause why this proposition of yours seems to be so plausible . . now i will answer your proposition , according to my own tenet in ordering gods decrees , which is likely to give you better satisfaction in the way of your own apprehension . now i grant your proposition ; acknowledging that in this case so it falls out , that he must needs consider the subject as reipsa & certo futurum . but how , non tanquam praecedaneum ( whereto your discourse tends ) but tanquam conjunctum ; the reason is , because i make the decrees of creation , permission of sin , and raysing out of sin , not subordinata , but coordinata & conjuncta . so i say in like manner , god doth joyntly decree to give both grace and glory ; i do not say god doth decree joyntly to give them , but he joyntly decreeth to give both grace and glory . and so austin defines predestination to be praeparationem gratiae & gloriae . so that in the same moment that he decreeth glory , he considers grace not as praecedaneum in intentione , but conjunctum . so on the other side god doth joyntly decree finall dereliction of some in sin and damnation for sin , as aquinas professeth of reprobation , that it includes voluntatem permittendi culpam , & damnationem inferendi pro culpa : so that in the same moment that he decreeth damnation , he considereth their finall impenitency non tanquam quiddam antecedaneum , but tanquam conjunctum . and judge you what force this hath to qualifie the harshnesse of tenets hereabouts , and what disadvantage to our opposites the arminians , who upon the subordination of these decrees cry out upon our tenets and expose them to obloquie , saying that we maintaine that god doth first decree to damne men , and then to this purpose he exposeth them to sinne those sinnes for which they are damned . and herewith they charge the authors of massa corrupta for the object of election and reprobation , aswell as the authors of massa nondum condita , or condita , but nondum corrupta . and the twenty reasons which arminius hath given against the authors of massa nondum condita ; he professeth that with little difference they may be accommodated against the fautors of massa corrupta . all which notwithstanding , i have considered , and i hope refuted also , both the one way against arminius , and the other way against corvinus , in a digression by it selfe , which containes a whole quire of paper , one of them ; but that is in my answer to corvinus , which is not yet perfected . doctor jackson my ancient friend , partly by his traditionary writings that passe in hugger-mugger from hand to hand , four pieces whereof as many as i could come by , i have answered ; and partly by his treatise of divine essence , withdrawing my studies another away : yet an answer to that i hope to smith by whitsontide ; and then to return : for in the second part which is newly come forth i finde little considerable save some few chapters touching contingency : my greatest businesse about him is to understand his language . now to draw to an end ; as your first thesis is an acknowledgement of the eternity of gods decrees ; so the second , of their unity both in time and nature , god willing all things uno & eodem actu . now judge i pray whether of the two opinions is most suitable hereunto ; that which makes the decrees of god before spoken of , coordinata & conjuncta , or that which makes such a concatenation of them by consequents after consequents : as for example , gods decree of raising men out of sin presupposeth the foresight of sin ; the foresight of sinne presupposeth the decree to permit sin ; the decree to permit sinne supposeth the foresight of the futurition of the creature ; and the foresight thereof supposeth the decree of creation : especially considering aquinas his argument , whereby he proves that praedestinatio christi cannot be the cause praedestinationis nostrae , to wit , because god by one and the same act predestinates both christ and us . and withall considering that praerequisitum will as much hinder the unity of gods decrees as causa . i had thought to have gone over your theses more exactly , but seeing the length already spun out , i resolve to be the briefer . . whereas in your third , you conceive the order of gods decrees is to be understood 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : i judge rather durands instruction to be more sound , before mentiotioned ; to wit , that there is onely prioritas amongst them secundum rationem ; and that he expounds thus , quando ratio unius sumitur a ratione alterius , as ratio mediorum sumitur a ratione finis . and priority in intention is onely of the end in respect of means tending thereto , as you rightly conceive it in your fourth thesis . . of the fifth i have already spoken enough , wherein i have laboured partly to discover the errour of your argumentation , and yet withall so as to give you satisfaction in your own way . . the sixth containes onely an inference upon the former , and the inference is not suitable ; for your assumption in the former theses did but contend , that god must consider it ; here you inferre , that he must presuppose it ; but it followeth not : for to consider it , 't is sufficient that it is conjunctum ; but to presuppose it is to maintain that it is antecedaneum . besides it is as much peccant against the order , between the end and the means , as the former , whereof i have spoken sufficiently . . of the seventh , your reason ( you confesse ) is the same as before , to wit , in the fifth , which i have already considered . neither is there any necessity why one should be before the other : they may , nay must be both together intended ; for consider , if the pardoning or curing of sinne be in intention after the permitting of sinne , then it should be before it in execution , which were as much as to say , that god must first pardon and cure sinne , before he can permit sinne . this is plainly irregular ; that irregularity which you conceive on the contrary is onely in shew , and rising meerly from confounding intention with execution . better to say , god doth first intend to cure sinne , and then intends to permit it ; ( for herehence followeth a due order in execution , to wit , first sinne is permitted , and after cured ) then to say , god first intends to permit sinne , and after to cure it ; for herehence proceeds a most preposterous order in execution , namely , that first sinne shall be cured , and then the being of sinne permitted . and indeed when men say , god doth first intend to permit sinne , and then to cure it , it seems their meaning is onely this , not that god doth first intend , &c. but that god doth intend first to permit sinne , and then to cure it , which is most true . . like as in your eighth thesis you doe expresse it ere you are aware , and no otherwise . . and as in your eighth , so in your ninth , you do expresse it most congruously thus , we may conceive god decreeth to permit the occasion first , and afterwards to make that use of it which he intends : which i say is most congruous , constituting this priority onely in execution , not in intention . i come to your conclusions drawn from the premises . . gods decree to manifest the glory of his power and goodnesse ad extra , is before his decree to create mankind , because that is a decree de fine , this de medio . resp . . though this be a truth , yet it is not the whole truth ; for it seems by power and goodnesse you understand onely that power and goodnesse which was shewed in his creation ; but this was not the last end : for this end was obtained the very first moment of adams creation , after which adam lived above yeeres , and all mankind since , many thousands , and every one knowes , the last end of a mans worke is of chiefest consideration , when he sets himselfe to make his worke , neither doth it become the wisdome of man to carry himselfe otherwise : as beza professeth , saying , statuere deum prius ordine causarum decrevisse hominem condere , quam quid eo condito faceret deliberaret : ( here is the point , marke it well ) is such a thing as quo nihil absurdius dici potest , quum finis in omnis sapientis artificis mente praecedat ipsius operis aggressionem , ut certissimum sit dei de humano genere decretum , creationem et ipsius creationis fines omnes antecessisse ; wherein he distinguisheth betweene finis creationis and finis hominis creati . and as the creation manifested his power and goodnesse in making man out of nothing , so man by this almighty power thus made , was made , and intended to be made , to a certaine end ; which cannot be imagined to have been in any other kind than to be either a vessell of mercy , or of wrath . and when solomon saith , god made the wicked against the day of evill , and withall signifieth that even this also was for himselfe , that is , for the manifestation of his glory , this cannot be in the way of that power and goodnesse you speake of , but something else ; even the making of him a vessell wherein one day shall shine the glory of god in the way of justice and soveraigne power over his creatures . . and therefore it cannot be as you conclude in the second place , that gods decree to create mankind is before his decree to manifest his mercy or justice in mankind . for though that be a decree to produce a subject , yet considering that this is the decree touching the end whereto he makes him : in all reason the decree of the end whereto a subject is made is before the decree of making the subject to that end . and we have an expresse testimony of the holy ghost for this , namely , that as god created all things for himselfe , so he created the wicked against the day of evill for himselfe . but by the way , i observe how you mistake the opinion of your opposites ; as when you say , that this decree of manifesting gods mercy or justice , is a decree of working an effect in that subject , for this is utterly untrue ; this were to make the decree of salvation of the one , and of damnation of the other to be before the decree of creation . and although some such thing may be conceived out of a superficiall apprehension of it , as proposed by beza and piscator ; yet both in true account of that opinion in generall , and mistaking of it in speciall , no such thing is avouched . nay , whereas your selfe maintaine , that the decree of damnation is before the decree of permission of finall impenitency ( a point no way congruous to your tenet about massa corrupta ) you have often read in my writings , that i account the decree of damnation in no moment of time to precede the decree of permission of finall impenitency . then the case of angells is utterly against this ; unlesse you maintaine the one to be elected upon the foresight of their obedience , the other reprobated upon the foresight of their disobedience : which i am perswaded you shall not find any orthodox divine in the point of mans election , to maintaine . . conclusio tertia . gods decree to permit sinne is before his decree to manifest either his mercy in pardoning sinne , or his justice in punishing sinne , because that is a decree , de eventu ; this a doing of something by occasion of that event . resp . . to your reason here mentioned i have answered before . . there is no priority or posteriority in intention , but onely in respect of finis and media ad finem . . it is untrue , that the former decree is a decree of an event , and the latter of doing something by occasion of this event . for what ? is gods permission , the event you meane ? if so ; then gods working grace may be accounted an event also , and so gods decree of salvation upon his working grace shall follow upon his decree of working grace , which is manifestly arminianisme . is the sinne permitted the event ? first , why should you call it an event ? is it because you conceive it to fall out besides gods intention ? arminius himselfe professeth the contrary . the articles of ireland professe , that god from eternity did by his unchangeable counsell ordaine whatsoever in time should come to passe , your selfe acknowledge , that gods decree of permitting sinne , is a decree de eventu : your selfe acknowledge , that god did foresee that man would sinne in case he did permit him to sinne ; which is as much as to say stice : food did intend that sinne should come to passe by his permission : which is 〈…〉 and expresse profession of austin where he saith , non ergo aliquid fit nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo : so that whether things come to passe deo faciente as good things , or deo sinente , as evill things ; still they came to passe deo volente as austin professeth . now this sinne is apparently the cause of the damnation of many thousands ; for as much as many thousand infants are damned onely for sinne originall ; and therefore like as upon this sin existent , god doth not take an occasion onely , but a cause of damning many thousands ; so if the decree of permitting this , be presupposed before the decree of damnation , you may say as well , that god upon the foresight of this sinne , doth not onely take occasion , but a cause also , of decreeing their damnation . and this may be applyed to the reprobation , not onely of infants , but of all that are damned , forasmuch as all that are damned , are damned for originall sinne , onely here is the difference , such reprobates as dye in their infancy , are damned onely for originall sinne , but others are damned not only for originall sinne , but for their actuall sinnes also . againe it is manifest , that the decree of permitting sinne originall , is no more a decree de eventu , and gods decree to manifest his mercy in pardoning it , is a decree of doing something by occasion of that event : than gods decree of permitting all actuall sinnes of his elect , from the first to the last , is a decree de eventu , and gods decree to manifest his mercy in pardoning actuall sinnes , is a decree of working something by occasion of that event ; and i cannot but wonder , this being againe and againe put to your consideration , that you doe not take notice of the equipollency of these : whence it manifestly followeth , that the decree of pardoning sinnes shall presuppose massam corruptam , as well with actuall sinnes , as sinnes originall . againe , if gods decree of shewing justice in punishing sinne , is but a decree of taking occasion of doing something : then gods decree of damnation for mens actuall sinnes , is but a decree of taking occasion of doing something ; and consequently , by what reason the decree of punishing sinne , presupposeth the decree of permitting sinne originall , by the same reason , the decree of damnation , shall presuppose the decree of permitting not onely sinne originall ; but all actuall sinnes also . by the same reason the decree of salvation , is but a decree of doing something upon the occasion of faith , repentance , and good workes . for if sinne deserve not to be accounted a cause moving god to resolve to punish a man with damnation , but rather an event , by occasion where of he resolves to punish with damnation : much lesse shall faith , repentance , and good workes be accounted a cause moving god to decree to save any man , but onely an event , by occasion whereof , god doth decree some mens salvation . yet looke by what reason the decree of punishing with damnation doth presuppose the decree of permitting sinne , by occasion of which event punishment by damnation is decreed , by the same reason the decree of salvation , doth presuppose the decree of giving faith , repentance , and good workes , by occasion of which events , salvation is decreed ; for why should not faith , and good workes be accounted an occasion of the decree of salvation , as well as sinnes are the occasion of the decree of damnation . . the fourth conclusion is this ; gods decree to produce the person of peter , is before his decree to manifest his mercy in peter , by the reason aforesaid , thes . . resp . that eighth thesis aforesaid made no mention of priority in decree or intention , but onely of priority in execution , by vertue of gods decree : for the words of that eighth thesis are these ; god decreeth first to produce that subject , and afterwards to worke such an effect thereupon . not that god did first decree to produce the subject : but onely that god did decree first to produce the subject : manifesting hereby , that your intent is , onely to reason from the order of execution , and therehence to inferre the like order in intention , which is the ordinary course of arminians at this day . and you signifie your meaning to be this , in that eighth thesis , though in the issue you faile of right accommodating it ; for your words are these , if any decree be concerning the working of a certaine effect in such a subject as cannot possibly exist without the producing of that subject , then we may suppose , that he doth first decree , ( thus you would say , though indeed you say otherwise ) to produce that subject , and afterwards to worke such an effect thereupon , which in plaine tearmes is to argue thus ; the permission of adams sinne presupposeth the creation of adam , therefore the decree of pe● to create adams sinne , presupposeth the decree of adams creation : now this is the resp . ●gh way to arminianisme , and pelagianisme in the highest decree , as i shewed you in my first ; the evidence whereof , as it seemes , drave you to acknowledge it , and to devise some other course , for maintenance of the tenet of massa corrupta : yet thro ghout , all the reason you give , is resolved into this : for as there i said , herehence it will follow in like manner , that because damnation presupposeth all actuall sinnes , therefore the decree of damnation presupposeth the decree of permitting of all actuall sinnes , and consequently , the foresight of them . in like manner , because salvation presupposeth all manner of good workes in men of ripe yeeres , therefore the decree of salvation , presupposeth the decree of giving effectuall grace , for the performing of all manner of good workes , and the foresight of them , which is direct pelagianisme in the highest degree . and these considerations perswade me better than heretofore , that the maintainers of massa corrupta for the object of predestination , must be cast upon the maintenance of arminianisme , and pelagianisme in the highest degree , whether they will or no. . conclusio quinta : gods decree to permit peter to sinne in adam , is before his decree to manifest his mercy in peter by occasion of this sinne , ex thes . . resp . . your thesis nona i have already answered . . gods decree to permit peter to sinne in adam , is no more before his decree to manifest his mercy by occasion of that sinne , than gods decree to permit peters personall sinnes all his life long , is before his decree to manifest his mercy in pardoning them . and what place you make for these decrees whether in election , or out of election , you have no where shewed . . god doth manifest his mercy by occasion of peters sinnes both originall , and actuall , not onely in the way of pardoning sinne , but in the way of saving his person , in despight of sinne , whence it followeth by the course of your argumentation , that the decree of permitting all peters sinnes throughout the whole course of his life , precedes the decree of manifesting gods mercy in his salvation . . and because gods decree of saving peter , is a decree of doing somewhat by occasion of peters faith , and repentance , and good workes , it followeth by your manner of reasoning , that the decree of saving peter , presupposeth the decree of giving peter faith , and repentance , and good workes . . conclusio sexta : gods decree to produce the person of judas , is before his decree of manifesting his justice in judas his person . thes . . resp . this is all one with conclusio quarta , and admits the same refutation . . conclusio septima : gods decree to permit judas to sinne in adam , is before his decree to manifest his justice in judas , by occasion of that sinne . resp . . this is all one with conclusio quinta , and admits the same answer : . why doe you say by occasion of that sinne , and not by reason of that sinne ? perhaps you will say , because that sinne is not the cause of judas his damnation ( for i cannot devise any other reason ) but this is not sound , for that sinne is the meritorious cause of judas his damnation : for though he be damned for actuall sinnes , yet is he damned for originall also ? againe , many thousand infants are damned onely for originall sinne . . may you not as well say , that gods decree to permit iudas his personall sinnes , is before his decree to manifest his justice in iudas by occasion of those sinnes ? and consider i pray how little agreeable that is to your tenet . . and if the decree of permitting iudas his personall sinnes , be before gods decree of punishing him with damnation , why should not the decree of giving faith , and repentance , and good workes , be before gods decree of rewarding with salvation ? . conclusio octava : gods decree to manifest his mercy in peter , or to make peter a vessell of mercy , ( which is properly decretum electionis ) is before his decree to call peter , to give him faith , and repentance , &c. because that is a decree de fine , this de medio . resp . . i doe not dislike the order of these decrees : but i say there is no congruity between them , such as should be between the ends , and the meanes . for there is no shew of mercy expressed in giving faith and repentance ; but onely implyed , in as much as both faith and repentance implies , a state of misery preceding ; the permission whereof alone hath congruous reference to the shewing of mercy , as the meanes stand in congraity to the end . faith and repentance and good workes are means tending to another end , namely , to the manifesting of gods remunerative justice : for as much as god meanes to bestow salvation on men of ripe yeares by way of reward of their faith , repentance and good workes . and it is without all contradiction , that in peter and every elect , appeares , not onely gods mercy , but his justice also , and that in the highest degree , both in the pardoning of their sinnes , and saving of their soules for the merits of christ jesus . and god hath ordained his sonne to give salvation . iob. . . . and i wonder not a little , that you should subordinate any medium tending to the demonstration of gods mercy , rather than the permission of misery . . especially considering , that god when he purposed to shew mercy on peter , he purposed to shew mercy on him . . in pardoning not onely his sinne originall , but all his actuall sinnes also . . in saving him not onely in despight of sinne originall , but in despight of all his actuall sinnes also . neither have you any way to avoid this , but by saying , that god made peter a double vessell of mercy , and that by two decrees , which i thinke was never heard of since the world began . . conclusie nona ; gods decree to manifest his justice in judas , or to make judas a vessell of wrath ( which is properly the decree of reprobation ) is before his decree to deny judas faith and repentance , &c. by the same reason . resp . here againe you erre marvelously , in making a medium most incongruous to the end intended . to deny faith and repentance , what is it more , than not to give it , and by faith you meane , i doubt not , faith in christ crucified &c. but it is cleare , that god gave no such faith and repentance unto the elect angells ; yet farre be it from us to thinke , that this was a medium tending to any end of reprobation . . the truth is , nothing but permission of sinne is a congruous meanes to the manifesting of gods justice . for should god afflict a man or any creature , that is not a sinner ( as medina maintaines ex communi omuium theologorum sententia , he can , and that in the highest degree ) this shall not be in the way of justice vindicative , nor as judex , but as dominus vitae et mortis ; like as man hath power to afflict inferiour creatures , and that in such a manner , non quo illis fiat mitius , sed quo nobis salubrius . . gods justice in judas is manifested no way more , than in his damnation , and that for actuall sinne , as well as originall ; and in many thousand infants onely for originall sinne ; and to make the permission of actuall sinne onely , subordinate to the decree of manifesting gods justice , and not the permission of sinne originall , is very strange . and alvarez that gravis anibor professeth generally , that permissio peccati propter quod quis damnatur , is effectus reprobationis ; and therefore cannot be premised before it . and every man that is damned , is damned for originall , as well as actuall sinnes , and many thousand infants onely for originall . as touching the order of decrees subjoyned : had you proceeded thus , god intended first to create , then to permit sinne , then to raise some , and finally derelinquish others , and lastly to save some , and damne others , and that to the manifestation of his glory in the way of mercy on the one , and justice on the other ; it had been exactly agreeable to zanchius his definition of predestination . and your selfe fall upon such a course , ere you are aware , in divers of your theses , as i have shewed . . the first being apparently a decree , as concerning the end god aimes at ; all the decrees ensuing , should be decrees de mediis , tending either to that end , immediatly or mediatly , which you have not explicated , neither indeed are they capable of any such explication : nay rather you have already manifested your meaning to be , that the end there specified , is onely the end of creation ; not so much as the end of the things created , much lesse of the things intended by the subsequent degrees : yet it is set in the first place , as though all the things intended in the decrees following , tended to the end mentioned in this decree , besides all congruity . . as touching the foresight of god interposed ; the first is mysterious , as would manifestly appeare , if the ground of it were opened . you thinke that angells were left to themselves , yet did not god foresee that hereupon they would fall , nor that hereupon they would not fall ; but that some would fall , and others not fall : which austin , as i have shewed , professeth arose from hence ; that they which stood , had such an adjutorium , as they which fell had not : which if it be true , man also , had he received the like adjutorium , had not fallen . but be it as you will , enquire to what end god suffered him to fall , especially this fall of his proving fatall to thousands ; i say this fall only ; it was fatall to all reprobates , though not onely this fall : for all reprobates are damned for originall sinne , though not for that onely . the second foresight is not rightly expressed ; god cannot be said to foresee what he can doe : for onely things to come are said to be foreseen , things present are not : but gods power whereby he can doe this , or that , is from everlasting present with him . now because you see that this order of yours is utterly opposite to that maxime , quod prius est intentione , posterius est executione ; you answer , that that maxime holds onely in respect of finis & media ad finem ; and therein you say right : but whereas therewithall you imply , that there is another order in intention than between finis & media , herein you innovate philosophy , and bring in an order in intentions , that was never admitted in any schooles . i am sure in aquinas you found no other priority admittable , but between finis & media . and durand acknowledgeth this priority in gods intentions , to be onely secundum rationem , and that is , quando ratio unius sumitur ab altero . but where no such priority is found , why should we admit of any priority at all in the decrees of god ? yet if you , or any man else can make good this new philosophy , by any reason , i shall be ready to yield unto it . as for the last , give me leave to say unto you in homers language 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . if ever it became you to retract ought , i am perswaded it well becommeth you to retract this : you were as good to say , god did permit adams sinne to no end , for you specifie none , and the circumstances of qualification stands you in no stead : you may as well say of all the sinnes committed in the world , that god doth permit them to no end , for you specifie none , and the circumstances of qualification stands you in no stead : you may as well say of all the sinnes committed in the world , that god doth permit them to no end ; yet from austins daies it hath been acknowledged , that god doth both punish sinne with sinne , and that by sinne men are brought sometimes to reformation : audeo decere ( saith austin ) utile est fuperbis in aliquod apertum manifestumque cadere peccatum . were the permission of sinnes concurring to the crucifying of christ jesus to no end ? yet never was the permission of any sinne of greater consequent , than the permission of adams sinne ; as whereby the whole race of mankind was corrupted , and way made for that great work , wonderfull both to men and angels , in the redemption of the world , by the incarnation of the sonne of god , and his passion upon the crosse . god created even the wicked against the day of evill , and that for gods own sake , as solomon testifieth : and did he not as well permit him to become wicked , for gods own sake , and his glories sake ? austin of old hath acknowledged , that even malum esse bonumest , and bellarmine after him , bonum est malum esse deo permittente . nec duhitandum est , deum facere bene , saith austin enchirid. . etiam sinendo fieri quaecunque siunt male : non enim hoc nisi justo judicio sinit . and seeing the permission of adams sinne could not be justo judicio , in respect of any sinne precedent ( for it was the first ) therefore it must be justo judicio , in respect of some good end intended to be consequent . the very sinne of david with bathsheba , and against uriah , arminius acknowledgeth to have been permitted by god to excellent ends , particular and definite , quo diligentius seipsum observare● , peccatum suum exemplo aliorum defleret , egregium humilitatis , resipiseentiaeque specimen , & exemplar praestaret , & gloriosius ex peccato resurgeret exam. praedest . pag. , . nay , your selfe have acknowledged out of austin , the ends of god in this , when you alledged out of lib. de corrept . & gratia , cap. . this passage ; credimus deum sic ordinasse angelorum & hominum vitam , ut in ea prius ostenderet quid p●ssct eorum liberum arbitrium ; deinde quid posset suae gratiae beneficium , justitiaeque judicium . apply this to man , first he shewed what his free will could do ; wherein ? but in his fall ; secondly , quid posset gratiae beneficium justitiaeque judicium : how was this shewed , but in the raysing of some , and derelinquishing others ? as for the circumstances wherewith you charm this strange saying , they serve you in no stead : man is in doubt what end to resolve on , upon the event or non-event of something , because he knowes not whether it will fall out or no : so if god were to seek , whether upon his permission of adam to sinne , he would sinne or no ; he might be uncertain what to intend . but you suppose , that before god decreed to permit him to sinne , he knew he would sinne if he were permitted . and as for the distinction of particular and generall , it cannot be accommodated to ends ; for ends intended are onely particulars , for they are intended to be produced , and such things are onely singulars : like as by singular means they are produced , and actiones versantur onely circa singularia . again , it is untrue , that gods decree was negative : for , as austin saith , enchirid. cap. . non utique nelens sinit sed volens : and actus volendi is positive in god. and again , cap. . non ergo fit aliquid , nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel sinendo ut fiat , vel ipse faciendo . your selfe , ere you are aware , draw neer to the truth , which breakes forth as loath to be suppressed ; as when you say , a man suffers an house to fall , because he can dispose of it many waies being fallen , to his own behoofe . apply this to god concerning the fall of adam , permitted by him . so saith austin , nec sineret bonus fieri male , nisi omnipotens etiam de malo facere posset bene . here is the generall , de malo facere posse bene . what are the specials in the passage by your selfe alledged , they are two , ut ostenderet gratiae beneficium , justitiaeque judicium . now consider i pray , posse de malo facere bene is not causa adaequata , why god should permit fieri male . but onely velle de malo facere bene . for this power of his extends to infinite particular sinnes , which he doth not permit . and austin acknowledgeth both , not onely the posse as you doe , when he saith , nisi posset de malo facere bene : but the velle also , and that according to the specials of gratiae beneficium , justitiaeque judicium ; as appeares in the passage alledged by you . for he saith , deum sie ordinasse hominum vitam , ( non quia posse● ostendere , sed ) ut ostenderet quid posset gratiae beneficium , justitiaeque judicium . so that he plainly manifests , that the cause moving god so to deale with angels and men , was not his power to shew , but his will and resolution to shew both the power of his grace and of his justice : which applied to men , is shewed in raising some after they are fallen , and derelinquishing others . i conclude as abigal said to david , hereafter it shall be no griefe unto you , nor offence of mind , that i have been a means to keep thee from running a dangerous course in the way of life : so hereafter it may be no regret unto you , that gods providence hath brought you to this conference , whereby to preserve you from running dangerous courses in the way of faith . you in your letter acknowledge reprobation absolute , which is utterly contradictory to your opinion , seeing you premise before it , the consideration of that sinne , for which men are damned : for you premise the consideration of sinne originall ; and many thousand infants are damned onely for that , and all that are damned are damned for that , though not onely for that . an answer to a discourse of d. h. about predestination ; by dr. twisse . . the reasons why our divines fall upon the corrupt masse , as the object of predestination , is not onely that which you alledge ( viz. because commiseration and dereliction presuppose the corrupt masse , &c. ) but also , and much more rather , as i conceive , because the very last end of predestination being , as you acknowledg , the manifestation of gods glory per modum misericordiae parcentis in some , per modum justitiae punientis in others , could not be intended without presupposition of sinne . for neither could god possibly intend to spare any , nor justly intend to punish any , if he had not considered them as in a state of sinne . resp . the question is , whether gods intention ( that is , his decree ) to spare or punish , presupposeth sinne . you thinke it doth , and that it cannot possibly be otherwise : i thinke it doth not , nor can possibly be so , that any thing in man can be pre-required to the decrees of god , yet i proposed the onely speciall arguments that ever i observed in sixteen yeares study in these points and answered them . you perceiving the inconsequence of that argument , as it seemes , perswade your selfe there is another argument of more force than that : but marke i pray with what issue ; in foregoing the proofe i proposed and answered , you instead thereof bring no proofe at all , but rely upon this proposition ( god could not possibly intend to spare any , nor justly intend to punish any , if he had not considered them as in a state of sinne ) without all proofe , as evident of it selfe . and if you marke it well , you shall find , that this proposition , is the same proposition in effect , the best proofe whereof that i found , i laboured to overthrow , by shewing the inconsequence thereof divers wayes . and seeing you rely finally hereupon without proofe , you begge the question , and instead of giving a new reason , you give none at all . and the truth is , i find many apt to be carried away with the plausible shew of this proposition , and either looke not at all farther for any proofe thereof , or if they doe , they proceed no farther than thus . the manifestation of mercy in sparing , and justice in punishing , presupposeth sinne ; therefore the decree ( or intention ) of manifesting gods mercy in sparing , and justice in punishing , presupposeth sinne , which was in effect the same consequence or enthymeme , which i proposed to answer , as you may easily perceive if you marke it well : for commiseration and manifestation of mercy are all one . now because this proposition is such a witch to bewitch mens fancies to entertaine it , i will endeavour to discover the vanity of it , and that in the very decrees of men , all which are temporall , whereas gods decrees were eternall . the decree of shewing mercy in pardoning sinne doth no more presuppose sinne , than the decree of shewing the power of balme in curing a green wound , doth presuppose the wound , or the decree of shewing the power of a cordiall against poyson , doth presuppose the empoysoning of a mans body ; or the decree of advancing a subject by way of reward , doth presuppose his service : or the decree of a patron ; to present his sonne to a benefice , doth presuppose his fitnesse for it , or the decree of solomon to bring shimei his gray haires unto the grave in bloud , did presuppose the offence for which this was brought to passe ; but rather from these decrees and intentions , each author in his kind proceedeth to bring to passe every thing that is required to the accomplishment of that end which he requires ; as i prove by instance in every particular . . i have knowne one , that to shew the power of his balme , hath wounded his owne flesh , and pouring his balme into it , hath cured it in the space of twenty foure houres . aske wherefore he wounded his flesh , every one seeth , that both he wounded it , and healed it with his balme , to make the vertue of his balme knowne : so that his intention of manifesting the vertue of his balme , did not presuppose the wound but drew after it , both the making of the wound , and the pouring of balme into it , as the meanes tending to the demonstration of the power of the balme . . so we have knowne another to take poyson , and afterward his cordiall against it , both the one , and the other , joyntly tending to the manifestation of the vertue of his cordiall . . a king intending to promote a favourite , but withall to doe it without envy of the nobility , may resolve to doe it by way of reward , which purpose presupposeth not good service , but rather hereupon he will imploy him in service , as in some honourable embassage , or in the warres , to the end that he may have occasion to advance him upon his service , without envy of the nobles . . a patron having a young sonne , may entertaine a resolution to bestow a living upon him when time serves ; this intention doth not presuppose his fitnesse , ( without which he cannot be admitted ) but because he hath a purpose to preferre him thereunto , therefore he will take order to bring him up like a schollar , and send him to the university to make him fit . . last of all , solomon you know upon davids admonition on his death bed , entertained an intention to bring shimei to his grave in bloud , yet not for his cursing of david , but for a new transgression ; therefore he takes a course to ensnare him , and bids him to build him an house in jerusalem , and not to passe over the brooke kidron upon paine of death . now it was not indeed in solomons power effectually to ensnare him , and so certainely to bring upon him the execution of death : but this is in the power of god ; for let him but expose any creature unto temptation , and derelinquish him therein , without giving him his grace to support him , that creature shall certainely fall into sinne , otherwise if any creature can keepe himselfe from sinne without gods grace , then gods grace shall not have the prerogative of being the cause of every good action ; but this prerogative of gods grace must and by gods grace shall be maintained unto the end . and upon this foundation the prerogative of his soveraigne power also over his creatures in disposing of them as he thinkes good , and making some vessells of mercy and some of wrath , which arminius himselfe professeth he dares not deny to be in the power of god , to wit , to make vessells of mercy and vessells of wrath , and that ex massa nondum condita , in his analysis of the ninth to the romans . but i proceed to the forme of your syllogisme . . the reason ( you say ) may be laid downe syllogistically thus : . god could not intend to pardon any without supposition of that , which is necessarily required to make them capable of pardon : but sinne is necessarily required to make them capable of pardon ; therefore god could not intend to pardon any without supposition of sinne . . god could not intend to punish any without consideration of that , which is in justice required to make them punishable : but sinne is required in justice to make any person punishable ; therefore god could not intend to punish any without consideration of sinne . resp . . in both syllogismes the minor we grant , the major we deny , as being in effect the very same proposition which is in question ; and all the evidence it carryeth with it consisteth in the parts which have a shew of an enthymeme thus : . sinne is necessarily prerequired to the pardoning of sinne , therefore it is necessarily prerequired to the decree of pardoning sinne . . sinne in justice is prerequired unto punishing , ergo 'tis in justice prerequired to the decree of punishing . now this is the very proofe which formerly i laboured to disprove , by shewing the inconsequence thereof , yet the proposition whereon you rely , either must depend upon this proofe , or upon none at all . but i will proceed with you a little farther upon these syllogismes you propose . . sinne ( you say , and that truly ) is necessarily required to make men capable of pardon . and this generall truth brancheth it selfe into two specialls : . sinne originall is necessarily required to make men capable of pardon for sinne originall . . sinne actuall is necessarily required to make men capable of pardon for sinne actuall . now because god doth intend to pardon all the sinnes of his elect , not onely originall but actuall , committed throughout the whole course of his life , it followeth that god could not intend to pardon these actuall sinnes without the presupposition of them . . by the same reason of yours i dispute thus : . god could not intend to bestow salvation upon any man by way of reward without supposition of that which is necessarily required to make him capable of reward . but the obedience of faith , repentance , and good workes , is necessarily required to make a man capable of reward , ergo , god could not intend to bestow salvation on any man by way of reward , without supposition of faith , repentance and good workes . . as god cannot intend to punish any without consideration of that , which in justice is required to make him punishable : so god cannot intend to punish any in such a degree , without that which is required in justice to make him punishable in such a degree . now not onely sinne originall , but all actuall sinnes of every reprobate , together with their finall impenitency therein , is required in justice to make every one of them punishable in such a degree ; ergo , could not god intend to punish any reprobate in such a degree , without consideration of all their actuall sins . and as mens actuall sinnes are the meritorious causes of their damnation : so the consideration of them shall be the meritorious cause of their reprobation , or at least , of that decree whereby god doth decree to inflict damnation upon them in such a degree . and by just proportion of reason , like as faith , repentance , and good workes are the disposing causes unto salvation , so the consideration of faith , repentance , and good workes shall be the disposing causes of their election unto salvation : but you proceed , and i am content to go along with you . . and this reason , especially for the latter part of it , which concernes the manifestation of gods glory per m●dum justitiae punientis , may be farther confirmed thus : that which tends not to gods glory simply , but onely upon supposition [ if sinne be ] could not be intended by him simply , but onely upon that supposition . for so farre and no farther doth god intend any thing , as it makes for his glory : but to punish men , or any other creatures , is a thing that tends not to gods glory simply , but onely upon supposition ( if sinne be ) ergo , it could not be intended by god simply but onely upon that supposition . resp . you need not have mentioned the tending of this to gods glory : your argument is in force , and greater force without it . for i hold , that to punish without supposition of sinne implyeth contradiction : paena being properly opposed to praemium , and as reward formally hath a respect to obedience going before , so hath punishment unto sinne . . now first to follow you in your owne course , i reason thus ; that which tends to gods glory not simply , but onely upon supposition of obedience in faith , repentance , and good workes , cannot be intended by him simply , but upon that supposition ; but to reward with salvation , and everlasting life , tends not to gods glory simply , but onely upon supposition of faith , repentance and good workes . ergo , it could ot be intended by god simply , but onely upon faith and repentance . . but to your major i answer ; no man saith , that god doth intend to punish any man but for sinne . now hereupon many ( not onely arminians , but some orthodox also ) are apt to be deceived , and to thinke , that these words , but for sinne , are to be referred to the antecedent removed , which is gods intention . but it is not so , those words are onely to be referred to the antecedent next before , which is to punish . and i prove it thus : when any man saith , god intends to punish man for his sinne , the meaning can be no other , than if he had said , god doth intend , that punishment shall be inflicted on man for his sinne ; where it is manifest , that sinne is noted onely as going before the punishment , not as going before gods intention . but as soone as this confusion of sense is opened by distinction , then they flye to this kind of argument , sinne goeth before the execution of punishment , therefore the consideration of sinne goeth before the intention of punishment , which is the argument i formerly proposed , and the inconsequence whereof i presume you doe manifestly perceive . now to that which followeth : . although the reason which you alledge on our behalfe be inconsequent , as you have framed it : yet i suppose it may be reduced to a true syllogisme thus : the decree of liberation from sinne , presupposeth sinne : election is the decree of liberation from sinne , ergo , election presupposeth sinne . if you deny the major , i prove it thus : that which presupposeth sinners , presupposeth sinne . the decree of liberation from sinne , presupposeth sinners : ergo , the decree of liberation from sinne , presupposeth sinne ; you will perhaps yet deny the minor ; but i prove it thus : the decree of liberation from sinne , presupposeth some that have need to be delivered , for else it were vaine , and to no purpose : onely sinners have need to be delivered from sinne : ergo , the decree of liberation from sinne presupposeth sinners . the like argument , and in the like forme , may be framed touching the decree of dereliction in sinne : or if you take reprobation for the decree of damnation , it may be said thus : the decree of damnation , presupposeth some persons justly damnable , for otherwise it were either an unjust , or at least and unwisean indeliberate decree . but onely sinners are justly damnable . ergo , the decree of damnation presupposeth sinners , and conse quently sinne . for peccatum is de formali ratione peccatoris qua peccator est , as you know . resp . every one indeed knowes that peccatum is de formali ratione peccatoris , and hereupon it is manifest that the second syllogisme gives no mite of proofe unto the first . for seeing formalis ratio of any thing , cannot be separated from the thing it selfe , and consequently neither peccatum from peccator ; you may easily perceive , that when we deny that the decree of liberation from sinne presupposeth sinne , we must therewithall necessarily deny , that it presupposeth sinners . your third syllogisme addeth as little force unto the former , being meerly identica probatio : for every man knoweth , that to be a sinner , and to have need to be delivered from sinne is all one , in such sort as whatsoever is denyed of a sinner , must be denyed of him that hath need to be delivered from sinne , forasmuch as every sinner hath need to be delivered from sinne . thus while you decline that proofe , which in my observation , alone hath course , and the implication whereof in the major proposition is all the evidence of it ; you fall upon no sound proofe at all . the truth is , if you observe , you may perceive your major proposition involves this enthymeme . liberation from sinne presupposeth sinne , sinners such as have need to be delivered from sinne , ergo , the decree of liberation from sinne , presupposeth both sinne and sinners , and such as need to be delivered from sinne . of any other force of proofe that you give , i am not conscious . . if the argument formed touching the decree of dereliction in sinne , be of the like forme , it will admit no doubt the same answer . . the major of the last syllogisme , hath a clause annexed unto it , as a reason of it , thus , else it were in vaine and to no purpose . if this reason pleased you , you might have relyed upon it , in the first syllogisme of the three , whereas now you may perceive , they containe no proofe but identicall . . your course of argumentation tends to prove , that it is impossible it should be otherwise than you conceive , which is more than to say , it were otherwise onely vaine , and to no purpose . thirdly i answer that which is vaine , and to no purpose , is either to no end , or to no good end : but the decree of liberation from sinne , whether it presuppose sinne , as you say , or not presuppose sinne , as i say , still it tends to the same end , and that a good end , to wit , the manifestation of gods mercy . but i erre , your meaning seemeth to be this , it is vaine in respect that it cannot obtaine the end it aimes at , unlesse it presuppose sinne . but how doe you prove that gods decree of liberation from sinne , cannot take effect , except it presuppose sinne ? you have no meanes to prove it but this : liberation from sinne cannot take effect without it presuppose sinne , ergo , the decree of liberation from sinne cannot take effect without it presuppose sinne . and while you decline this way of proofe , you light upon no proofe at all . . touching your last syllogisme , i deny your major , that is , i deny that the decree of damnation presupposeth persons justly damnable . then you say it is unjust ; but i deny this consequence , and though you bring no farther reason for your affirmation , yet will i prove my negation thus : the decree of damnation for finall perseverance in sin , no man will say , to be unjust : but god decrees to damne no man but for finall perseverance in sinne , ergo , gods decree of damnation is not unjust . here i suppose you will reply , that if god decreeth to damne no man but for finall perseverance in sinne , then it followeth , that the decree of damnation presupposeth not onely sinne in generall , but finall perseverance ; and so you may thinke my opinion more dissolute than yours , and your opinion more rigid than mine . and i doubt not , but so it will appeare in the end , especially in the point of election ; but yet not for any force in this consequence . wherefore i answer , that this consequence is very unfound , though it hath deceived many , and though the usuall course is , to content themselves with proposing it , without all proofe , thinking it needeth no proofe ; yet will i easily disprove it , and shew the vanity of it , as already i have done the like . now i pray what is the meaning of this , god doth not decree to damne any man but for finall perseverance in sinne ? hath it any other meaning than this , god doth not intend , that damnation shall be afflicted on any man , but for his finall perseverance in sinne goeth before damnation ; ergo , the consideration of finall perseverance in sinne goeth before the decree of damnation . the inconsequence whereof i have formerly shewed , neither doe i finde any exception you make against my course in discovering it . and by the way give me leave to tell you , what i seeme to have found in the course of my studies in these points : arminianisme and pelagianisme is one of the unlearnedst heresies that ever was , depending meerly either upon principles , which they establish to themselves at pleasure without all ground , or upon consequences , most inconsequent ; yet both their principles , and their consequences are very plausible at first sight to judgement , and the tenets themselves , most apt to bewitch carnall affections . and if the trumpets in the revelation doe containe a prediction of heresies growing upon the church , as most have thought , ( though now adayes it begins otherwise to come about ) and the starre called wormewood , as a starre signifieth some plausible heresie , as piscator conjectureth ; i see none so fit as the pelagian heresie to be notified hereby , though as bitter as wormewood in opposing the grace of god ; in maintaining the prerogative whereof , how can it be but he should be zealous , that hath tasted of it , and of gods goodnesse in making him a vessell of mercy , when he might have made him a vessell of wrath . but you proceed . . whereas you argue , that if election presuppose originall sinne , it presupposeth actuall sinnes also . i answer , it followes not : for though god hath decreed to free his elect from all their actuall sinnes , as well as from their originall , yet he hath not done it by one and the same decree : but first he hath resolved to free them from that generall curse , and malediction , whereto they were obnoxious in adam , and this is included in their very election ; afterward he hath resolved to purge them also from all their actuall sinnes , which they shall commit by the effectuall application of christs merit , and this is by another decree consequent upon their election , being one of his decrees de mediis . resp . herein you carry your selfe like a right schollar , in making way out though it be a new way . as if the decree of freeing from originall sinne , were a different decree from the decree of freeing from sinnes actuall , and before it . and albeit the actuall sinnes of gods elect are many and much different , some committed before their calling , and for many yeares , some committed after their calling , throughout the whole course of their lives , yet you can be content to make the decree of god in freeing from all these , to be but one decree ; onely the decrees of freeing from actuall , and from originall sinnes must be different decrees . . when you say , first he hath resolved to free them from originall sinne , and afterwards he hath resolved to purge them from actuall sinnes , i doubt your meaning is no more but this , god hath resolved first to free them from originall sinne , and afterwards to purge them from actuall sinnes . and my reason is , because many times i have observed speeches to ranne thus , when the meaning hath beene but so as i have expressed . but i will manifest , that in the execution , freeing from malediction in adam , and purging from actuall sinnes goe together : much lesse can they differ in intention ; which i prove thus : no man is delivered from the malediction , whereto he was obnoxious in adam , but by faith in christ , he is therewithall freed from all his actuall sinnes committed before his calling : therefore seeing they are at once freed from malediction in adam , and from many actuall sinnes , it followeth that god did intend at once thus to free them ; and how could this be done by different decrees , one going before another ? . now i will prove , that god did at once intend to free from all sins , both actuall and originall , though he did not intend , that this should be done at once ; forasmuch as actuall sinnes are committed successively , one a long time after another . god intending to give faith and repentance to his elect , did therewithall intend to free them from all their sinnes , for these are the onely meanes whereby we are freed from sinne . but god did at once intend to give faith and repentance to his elect : ergo. he did at once intend , to free them from all their sinnes . against this argument , the greatest colour of exception is from the consideration of actuall sins , that have their course after their calling . but this again is as easily removed by consideration , that as sins have their course , so faith and repentance have their course ; and god intended at once to give his elect faith and repentance , and finall perseverance in both , though perseverance cannot be had at once , that being against the nature of it . . whereas you say onely of actuall sins , that we are purged from them by the effectuall application of christs merits ; i hope your meaning is not , to exclude the purgation of originall sin , and liberation from malediction in adam from the effect of christs merits . the blood of jesus christ cleanseth us from all sin . and david repented of his originall sin , as well as of his actuall , and so doe we . and when in respect of the law of his members , leading him captive to the law of sinne , the apostle cries out , wretched man that i am , who shall deliver me , &c. immediately he comforteth himselfe in this manner , i thank my god through jesus christ . . when you say , that gods decree of purging us from actuall sins , is one of the decrees de mediis , you doe not tell us what you call that other decree , whereby god decreeth to free us from that generall curse and malediction whereto we were obnoxious in adam . but by the difference you put , you leave us to interpret it , of gods decree de fine : now there is no such proportion , or disproportion between these decrees , that the decree of freeing from originall sin , or from the malediction in adam , should be decretum de fine , and the decree of purging from actuall sins , should be decretum de mediis . . for the end of gods actions is meerely his own glory , according to that , prov. . . god made all things for himselfe , and that rom. . . last , from him and for him are all things . the freeing from sin originall &c. may be a means to this , it cannot be the end which god intends . . if salvation be considered as the end which god intends , as commonly divines consider it , ( though this course of consideration hath been the mother of great perturbation , in the ordering of gods decrees ) yet freedom from sin originall , is rather a means to this : therefore not to be accounted the object of gods decrees concerning the end . again , who doubts , but that the freeing from sin originall , is as well a means of salvation , as the purging from sins actuall . therefore the decree thereof is to be reckoned amongst the number of the decrees de mediis . . yet will not this suffice , to make the decree of freeing from sin originall , to be different from the decree of purging from sins actuall , as this is accounted a decree de mediis : unlesse the freeing from sin originall be the end , and the purging from sins actuall a means tending to that end . for priority and posteriority in intention , hath no place , but by reason of mutuall respect between the end and the means tending to that end . but in no congruity can it be said , that the purging us from sins actuall is a means to free us from sins originall , or from that malediction , whereto we were obnoxious in adam . . if freeing from originall sin be first in gods intention , and afterwards the purging of us from sins actuall ; it followeth , that the freeing from originall sin shall be last in execution , so that god shall first free us from actuall sins , and then proceed to free us from originall sin . i proceed to the next . . in like manner we say of the reprobate : it is one decree whereby god resolves to leave them in the state of originall sin , another whereby he doth resolve to leave them in their actuall sins also ; and although this latter doth follow alwaies upon the former , yet the former is onely properly called reprobation . wherefore it followeth not , that if the decree of reprobation supposeth originall sin , it supposeth actuall also . resp . . the answer unto the former may in every particular be accommodated unto this . . these you speak of are not different , but one decree , and the same : as i prove thus ; gods decree to leave them in the state of originall sin , is all one with gods decree finally to deny them faith and repentance : and gods decree finally to deny them faith and repentance is all one with gods decree to leave them in their actuall sin . also reprobation , as it signifieth gods decree of leaving in the state of sin , was never conceived to be other , then the decree of denying them faith and repentance unto the end : which whether it be not a decree of leaving them in actuall sins as well as originall , let any man judge . for god by this decree of finall d●r●liction , did not onely decree that they should be left in their sins before they come to the use of reason , but in their sins committed after also , in their youth , in their middle age , in their old age : otherwise it could be no decree of finall dereliction . . although god doth actually damne men as well for their actuall sins , as for their originall : yet the foresight of originall sin , being enough to salve gods justice in the decree of damnation , we are not compelled to grant any more , as antecedent to that decree , but may take in the rest , as consequent rather . resp . as god doth actually damn men aswel for their actual sins , as for their originall ; so undoubtedly god did from everlasting decree to damn them for their actuall sins as wel as for their originall . for when god doth actually damn them for their actuall sins , then undoubtedly he doth will to condemne them , otherwise he should damne them against his will : now the will of god , being an eternall action , is eternall ; therefore from everlasting he did will to damne them for actuall sinnes : for his will to damne them , and his decree to damne them is all one . now i think you doe not make two decrees of damnation of the same men , one for their originall , another for their actuall sins : therefore in the same moment that he decreed to damne for sin originall , he did decree to damne for actuall also . . if the foresight of sinne be required to salve gods justice in the decree of damnation of men of ripe yeeres ; the foresight of originall sinne will not serve the turn : for seeing god doth not intend the damnation of man indefinitely , in respect of the degrees thereof , but definitely , that is , according to the very degree in which he will inflict damnation ; it is manifest , that foresight of originall sinne cannot salve gods justice . for to intend damnation in such a degree as is due onely to sins actuall , upon foresight onely of sinne originall , is as unjust , as to intend damnation upon no foresight of sinne at all : for even in this case you allow , that as some degrees intended are due to sinne originall , upon foresight whereof alone , they are intended ; so again some degrees intended , are due onely to actuall sinnes , upon no foresight whereof in your opinion they are intended . . it is very strange , that you should maintaine , gods course is justified in decreeing to damne upon foresight of originall sinne , and not upon the foresight of actuall sins : whereas damnation for originall sinne onely , is so farre from being justifiable in the sight of flesh and blood , as that it is indeed the second degree of the greatest absolutenesse of gods power , that ever was or shall be shewed in this world , or in the world to come . . the first degree and greatest , was the crucifying of the same god for others sins , being without all sin of his own . . the second is the damnation of infants , for the sin of adam ; which adam himselfe , notwithstanding , we believe to be saved . . i pray consider the difference betwixt your opinion and minde ; you maintaine that god decreed to damne all reprobates before the foresight of any of their actuall sinnes : i no way like this tenet , but maintaine , that in the same moment , that god decrees to damne any reprobate , he decrees to damne him for all his actuall sins , aswell as originall sinne , and finall perseverance in them ; and that in the same moment he foresaw all their sins : not that the foresight of their sinnes is antecedent or subsequent to , but concomitant or conjunct with his decree of their damnation , in the same moment , not of time onely , but of nature also . undoubtedly actuall sinnes are more apt to justifie god in damning any man , than sinne originall ; yet you maintaine that god decrees to damne a man , without the foresight of that , which doth more justifie god in damning any man ; onely you deny , that he can decree to damne any man , without the foresight of that , which doth lesse justifie god in the actuall damnation of any one . you will have the foresight of mans actuall sins to follow the decree of damnation , which i dare not avouch , not onely because it is harsh to mens affections , but because it is repugnant in my judgement to manifest reason ; onely i deny the foresight of all sinnes to be antecedent to this decree : i say , t is neither antecedent to it , which is the dissolute opinion , nor subsequent after it , which is the rigid opinion , and each of them equally untrue ; but it is conjunct or concomitant to it , in the same moment of nature : both these degrees being the decrees de mediis , and so making up one formall compleat decree de mediis ad eundem finem tendentibus , which is the manifestation of gods glory in the way of justice ; as i have shewed at large in my third digression , amongst those which i heare are lately brought into your hands . but i wonder not a little what you are fallen upon in the next place . . as touching the election and reprobation of angells i have nothing to say , because the scripture saith nothing . it is true , that it could not be made ex communi massa corrupta , because there was none such ; but why it might not be out of the foresight of their personall obedience or disobedience , i know no great matter to object . nor will it follow , that if they were elected upon such considerations , we must be so too : for our case is wholly different , as the scripture denyeth that of us . resp . hitherto you have discoursed as it were out of the month of our divines ; who yet as i have shewed in my eighth digression , are for the most part nothing for this opinion which you propose , being rightly understood . but in this point not one is for you ; nor ever could i observe any of our divines that maintained not the election of angells , to be of as free grace as the election of men , or the reprobation of angells , to be of as free soveraignty and absolutenesse in the denyall of grace , as the reprobation of men . arminius never durst professe this which you doe ; but still puts it off as a matter he hath nothing to doe withall , treating onely of the predestination of men : which he would never have done , had he any hope to make good that opinion , which you seeme more to incline unto , than to the contrary . but though you see no great matter to object against it , yet others doe , that hold it absolutely impossible to be otherwise ; namely impossible , that any thing in the creature should be the cause of the will of god quoad actum volentis ; or of predestination , quoad actum praedestinantie , insomuch that aquinas professeth , never any man was so mad , as to maintaine that there could be any cause of the will of god. p. . q. . art. . in corp. cum praedestinatio includat voluntatem , sic inquirenda est ratio praedestinationis , sicut inquiritur ratio divinae voluntatis : dictum est autem suprà , quod non est assignare ●iusam divine voluntatis ex parte actus volendi : sed potest assignari ratio ex parte volitorum , &c. deus vult esse aliquid propter aliud . nulius ergo fuit it a insanae mentis , qui diceret merita esse causam divina praedestinationis ex parte actus praedestinantis , sed hoc sub questione vertitur ; utrum ex parte effectus praedestinatio habeat aliquam causam : et hoc est quaerere , utrum deus praeordinaverit se daturum effectum praedestinationis alicui propter aliquam causam . and whereas suarius hath laboured to helpe himselfe with a shifting distinction , betweene causa and ratio ; as if there might be ratio voluntatis divinae from without , though not causa : and finding these tearmes promiscuously used by aquinas in his summes , flyeth out to his booke contra gentes , and ferrarienses thereupon , to get hold of somewhat therehence for his advantage ; yet i have endeavoured to beat that fox out of his holes , in my third digression upon election . . are they not called in scripture the elect angells ? now marke austins discourse ; if upon the foresight of mans obedience god elect any man , it shall not be said , non vos me elegistis , sed ego vos elegi ; but on the contrary rather , vos me elegistis non ego elegi vos . for if election of angells followed upon their obedience , they did first choose god , that is , choose to obey him , before god did choose them , that is , choose to save them . . if angells were elected upon their obedience , then either by necessity of nature this came to passe , or by the free constitution of god ; it cannot be said , by necessity of nature , ergo by his free constitution , whence it followeth , that god did ordaine , that upon the obedience of angells he would ordaine them to eternall life . now judge you whether one decree of god can possibly be the object of another decree , all decrees of god being eternall ; and the objects of gods decrees being meerely temporall : as appeares in the decree of creation , preservation , redemption , vocation , justification , sanctification , salvation . . no good act can be wrought but by god , and by his grace ; it is he that workes in us both the will and the deed of his good pleasure ; doe you not thinke it is so in angells also ? otherwise what cause have they to give god thankes for their election , as namely , if it sprang from their obedience . but suppose you deny this ; yet all confesse no naturall action can be wrought ( much lesse gratious ) without gods concourse , as the efficient cause thereof . now consider , doth god concurre modo nos velimus , which is suarius his devise ? consider i pray you , the contradiction included in this tenet : god is the cause working not onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 perficere , but also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 velle , as they confesse : now is it possible , that god concurreth ad velle modo nos velimus ? can the same thing be the condition of it selfe ? it may as well be before it selfe . againe , supposing we doe velle , it is not possible by the power of god , that we should not velle : for factum infectum reddere me deus quidem potest . but this i have farther prosecuted in a digression by it selfe , proving that god doth determine the will to every act thereof , and shewing the great concurrence herein , ( and upon what grounds ) of schoole divines , from albertus magnus his dayes downwards . but i proceed with you . . to that which you say concerning infants , i thinke i may answer , that although there were no other thing that made way to their salvation , or damnation , but onely the fall of adam ; yet it followeth not , that god decreed to permit adams fall , as a medium tending thereunto . for what if he decreed to save or damne some sine mediis , supposing them in a state immediately capable of salvation or damnation , as by adams fall , and their originall sinne contracted hereupon , they were ? yet i adde farther , concerning infants that are saved ; there is somewhat else decreed to make way to their salvation , besides adams fall : namely an application of christs merit to them in baptisme , or otherwise . and for those that are damned ; since their originall sinne makes them immediately justly damnable , it was enough for god to decree to leave them in the state they were , and so to damne them ; there being no other remedy to bring to passe his end in the matter . resp . in generall observe i pray you the disproportion of your tenet concerning infants , and others . god doth not decree to damne infants ( as you say ) but upon the foresight of all the sinne , for which they are damned ; but god doth decree to damne all others , not upon the foresight of all their sinnes for which they are damned , nor upon the foresight of those sinnes for which they are chiefly damned , and which doe justifie god most in their damnation ; but onely upon the foresight of originall sinne , for which least of all they are damned , and which doth least of all justifie god in their damnation . but i come to the particular scanning of the parts . . you utterly mistake my wordes ; i said not , the fall of adam was the onely way , or any way , for the salvation of infants : but this i said , and say ; the fall of adam was the onely way of manifestation of gods mercy in the salvation of infants : for mercy supposeth misery , and the misery of infants is onely in respect of sinne originall , not at all in respect of sinnes actuall , wherein they are nothing culpable . now to the manifestation of gods mercy in their salvation , the permission of adams fall , and their fall in adam , was a medium : and i prove it thus , if god did permit adam to sinne , and these infants in adam , to this end , namely to the manifestation of his mercy in their salvation ; then this permission of adams fall , and their fall in adam , was a medium tending to the manifestation of his mercy in their salvation : but god did permit adam to fall , and these infants in adam , to this very end . ergo. i prove the m●●●r thus ; he did permit adam to fall , and these infants in adam , to the manifestation of his own glory in them : but no glory of god is more conveniently manifested in the permission of adams fall , and these infants in adam , than the glory of his mercy in the pardoning of their sinnes , and saving their soules in despight of sinne : therefore this is to be accounted the end as much as any . . i nothing doubt , but that infants are saved sine mediis ; i spake not of the media of their salvation , but of the manifestation of gods mercy in their salvation : i make no question , but that they are saved , by the merits of christ , whether they have the ordinary meanes of applying christ unto them , or no. . touching reprobate infants , i prove the permission of adams fall , and their fall in adam , was a medium , tending to the manifestation or gods justice in their damnation . for if god did permit adam to fall , and them in adam , to this end , namely , to the manifestation of his justice in their damnation , then this permission was a medium tending thereto . but to this end god did permit adams fall , and their fall in adam : which i prove thus ; he did permit it for the manifestation of his own glory , as to this end he doth all things . but no glory of god is so conveniently manifested hereby , as the glory of his justice in their damnation ; unlesse you will say with alphonsus mendoza , and didscus alvarez , that rather the manifestation of gods glorious grace towards his elect , in consideration that he could have made them vessells of wrath as well as others , is the cause , why god doth not save all , but permits a multitude to sinne , after much different courses , and damnes them for sinne . . since their originall sinne ( you say ) they are justly damnable ; but i pray consider , how came they to be thus justly damnable ? was it onely by the will of adam ? was it not by the will of god also ? that the first sinne of adam alone , and no other , is imputed to his posterity ; how could this come to passe but by the will of god. . that the sinne of adam becomes fatall to all his posterity , and not so the sinne of any man else , to his posterity , how is this , but by the will of god ? . could not god have derived a child from adam in the state of his innocency , if he had so thought good ? . how come we to be borne in originall sinne , but by the will of god , who could have destroyed adam after his sinne , and made another author of generation of mankind . in all this , appeares the will of god , and forceth us to acknowledge the power of god over his creatures , to dispose of them as he thinkes good . but along to the rest . . although we say , the fall of adam was considered in the decree of gods election : yet we doe not say , it was preintended ; ( neither indeed can god properly be said to intend any thing which he permits onely ; ) wherefore it followeth not , upon our opinion , that the fall of adam was the end of mans salvation , and damnation , or that it was to be in execution after it : for the respect of media and finis is , where things are intended onely . but you will say , god intended the permission of the fall , though not the fall it selfe , and if that were first in his intention , the same consequents follow . i answer , it was one thing to consider adams fall as a thing that would be , if it were not hindered , another thing to resolve positively to permit it . and though perhaps god did both , yet we make the former act onely , to have beene precedent to his election , not the latter . resp . . i spake nothing of gods intention that adam should fall , but onely of gods intention to permit him to fall ; and shewed , that if the permission of adams fall , was first in intention , and then mans damnation , it will manifestly follow , that in execution it shall be last ; that is , god shall first damne men for sinne , and afterwards permit adam to fall into sinne , and all in adam . to this you say , that it is one thing to consider adams fall as a thing that would be , if it were not hindered ; another thing to resolve positively to permit it . but this answer is to no purpose . for my argument doth not depend upon the confusion of these things , which you say doe differ , and therein say truly my argument depends upon a principle , that is totâ a●ademia notissimum , and justified also by all experience , that what is first in intention is last in execution . . but what say you ? doe you not make the permission of adams fall precedent to election and reprobation ? why then let us shake hands ; for the case is cleare , that then the foresight of adams fall , neither could be precedent to election : for the foresight of adams fall in no moment of time before gods resolution to permit it : for though god foresaw that adam would fall , if god permitted him , yet could he not foresee , that he would fall absolutely , untill god were resolved to permit him . . some things you touch by the way , i may not omit , you say nothing can properly be said to be intended , which he permits onely . this is very worthy of consideration , what think you of adams eating of the forbidden fruit ? did god intend that or no ? perhaps you will say , that god may be said to intend that , because he did only permit that as evill , but concurred to the effecting of it , as a naturall action . but then consider , how was it possible , that god should intend that this act should come to passe and not the evill of it , whereas the evill , considering gods interdict , was inseparable from it . i should answer it thus ; as touching the substance of the act , god intended it should come to passe , and it came to passe by gods effection ; for so god intended it should come to passe , to wit , by his effection : but as touching the evill of the action god intended it should come to passe , and it came to passe , but onely by gods permission : for so onely he intended it should come to passe , to wit , by his permission . hereupon you may flye out , and deny that god did intend so much as the act it selfe of eating the forbidden fruit . but i pray why might not god intend and determine , that that act should come to passe , aswell as the jewes crucifying of christ ? yet what say the apostles with one mouth , both herod , &c. why not aswell as the kings giving their kingdomes unto the beast ? yet it is expressely said , that god put it into their hearts to doe his ●ill even in this , to wit , giving their kingdomes unto the beast . in a word , i have a digression to this purpose , in the second booke , digres●●● . the title is this , a● sanctus israelis , &c. it is the onely point wherein i oppose aquinas , and aquinas herein opposeth himselfe manifestly against austin , as there i shew . . in your laying downe the order of gods decrees , i would gladly understand one thing . whether you make his first decree de fine , to have been definite or indefinite ? i meane , whether he resolved at first , to declare his mercy upon such and such persons as peter , judas , &c. or indefinitely upon some onely ? if you make it indefinite , it may be , such a decree might passe upon massa nondum condita . but that is not the decree of election . if you make it definite , me thinkes your arguments before alleadged are strong — against it . resp . your distinction is good of a decree definite and indefinite ; in the same tearms you shall finde it disputed of , in the third digression of those that are come to your hands : and sound labouring to hold up a decree indefinite , but all in vaine . the truth is massa nondum condita is not to be taken positively , but privately rather as it denies creation and corruption precedent to gods predestination , forasmuch as all these decrees of creation , of permission of adams fall , of liberation finall from sins by faith and repentance , and lastly of salvation , are but one formall complete decree de mediis , tending to one compleate end , which is the manifestation of gods glory in the way of mercy mixt with justice : on the other side , all these decrees , to wit , of creation , of permission of adams fall , of finall dereliction in sin , and lastly of condemnation for sin , doe make up but one compleat decree de medijs , tending to one end , which is the manifestation of gods glory in the way of justice . as for the strength of your arguments , alleadged against this opinion , i remit to every indifferent mans judgement to consider thereof . as touching the first arguments you propose , i could gratifie you thus farre , that the decrees you speake of , doe consuppose sin , but not presuppose sinne . forasmuch as my tenet is , that in the same moment with those decrees , god doth consider their sin , but not in any moment before it . this i say my tenet alloweth me to grant , but i cannot acknowledge that any of your arguments prove thus much . but then againe , i maintaine that these decrees consuppose other sinnes , aswell as originall ; yea the decree of damnation consupposeth in the same moment all their actuall sins , yea even finall impenitency ; forasmuch as god decreeth to damne no man of ripe yeares , but for all the sins that ever he shall commit , and finall impenitency in them : whereas you maintaine that god first decrees to damne them , and then foreseeth the actuall sins of theirs , for which they shall be damned . finis . addenda & corrigenda . pag . lin . read parts . p. . l. r. rectifie ib : l. r. were of . p. l : r. diversions from . l dele . not . p. l. is intended p l. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. l. twofold . p. l. and not . p. l. wholy god's , because they are wholy from god. p. l. first shewing . l. this objection . l. ult creatures love . p. l. world healthfull l. he decreed should perish . p. l. judicious author . l. conversion . l. affect . p. l kind of a meritorious . p l. vines . l they are the sons of god. l. praised me . l. we discourse . p. l. of men . l. to the dead . ib according to men . p. l. del . not . l. very philosophically takes . l. to some p. l. over man his . l. that it is . p. l. . from ten l. puniri . p. l. unsesonable . l. refuted . p. l. unto them . p. l. friend of his l. at the font . p. l. . dele if . l. exposition . l. judas may cease , and the prupose of electing judas may &c : l. and in saying . p. l. of being l. in this . p. . l. lesse evident , that death was not desireable . l. defignes . l. at a being in a state , l. deliberative desire . l esse nolis . p. l. all soules . p. they are . p. l. paine corrupting their . p. l. praeoptat . l. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. l. , degree l. degree of diminution . l any paine . p. . l. my argument . p. . l. in this l. will. p. . l. the corrupt . p . l. . permittente deo. p l. : but god by this opinion doth will and procure it by a powerfull and effectuall decree , which cannot be resisted p. l. this will. l signes of p. l god : p. l. of thomas . p. l as holily . p. l. is just . p. . l. restraines . ib l. good works . l. that therefore god. l. . double evill . l. for it by . p. l. potan . p. l. efficacy of . l supposition . l. necessarily but either necessarily or &c. l. supposition . l. of aquinas . l. on gods. marg : pro culpa . p. . l. quotation . l. to feare . l. . emortui sarmenti quia christo resecti sunt ; l. multi . p. l. saith not l. nill that . l. futurition . l. from sin . l. or whither he abstaine from that which is evill , he doeth not abstaine from it in a gracious manner ; p. l. this of . l. you hearts . l. . mans infidelity . p. l. . manner of appointing hereunto , for if they be at all appointed hereunto , undoubtedly they are precisely appointed thereunto . p. l. supposition . p. l. second way . p. l. as we . l. severally . p. l. author of the sin. l. del . good . p. . l. will not . p. . l. futurition . l. procure . l. as a second . p : l. of england . l. but we l. against . l. if he should worke them contrary to their natures then &c. p. l. effecting . p. l. of sin . p. l. acts . p. l. any naturall act . l. mere pleasure as the apostle professeth that god hath mercy on whom he will ; it is evident that god of his mere pleasure &c. p. l. as uncapable . p. . l. nec recte . p : l. will doe p. l. nill it . p. l. the cause l. . my answer . p. l. with their . p , l. and that p. l. credible . p l agent . p. l. or vitious . p. l. will of . p. l. of destiny . p. l. asser●oribus . l. quin author l. i propose . p. l. so as to come to passe . p l. pillar had not . l. del . pillar had . p. l ult . why god p. l. & so . p. l. without which . p. l. it may . p. l. decrees . p. l. wherein 't is manifest that finall perseverance in sin goeth before . l. but if you farther proceed to make it good according to your usuall course thus ; finall perseverance in sin goeth before damnation . ergo &c p : l. mine . l. decrees . p. l. is in . p. l and some . l. . privatively . a vindication of dr. twisse from the exceptions of m r john goodwin in his redemption redeemed . by henry ieanes , minister of gods word in chedzoy . oxford , printed for t. robinson . . to the reverend and learned mr iohn goodwin . sir , i have assumed so much boldnesse , as to examine some passages that you have in your booke ( entituled redemption redeemed ) against d. twisse : wherein i believe that you your selfe will acknowledg , that i have carried my selfe as a fair adversary , as an adversary only unto your opinions , and not unto your person , which i love & honour , as in other respects so for the good and great gifts and parts god hath bestowed on you . many of my friends have earnestly disswaded me from this vindicatiō assuring me that i must expect from you insteed of a reply , nothing but a libell . but for my part , i shall hope and pray unto the almighty for better things of you . however i am not hereby deterred from entring into the lists with you . however i am not hereby deterred from entring into the lists with you , neither shall i deprecate your utmost severity in rationall argumentation , for the discovery of any thing , that you conceive to be weake and unsound in this my discourse . you may perhaps think and say that so small a trifle is unworthy a diversion from your more serious employments ; but for that , i am contented that the learned reader judge betwixt us . indeed i had long ere this finished an answer unto your whole book ; but that there was a generall , and ( as i think ) a just expectation , that some in the university of cambridge , who dissented from you , would comply with your faire invitation of them , to declare themselves in some worthy and satisfactory answer to the particulars propounded in your book : but upon their long silence ( which i can neither excuse , nor will i accuse ( as being altogether ignorant of the causes thereof ) i renewed my thoughts of setting about this worke , and intended in the interim , to have annexed to this piece of d. twisse , a table referring unto such passages in this , and other of his books , as doe in great part satisfy whatsoever you have delivered , in your forementioned treatise , in opposition unto the absolutenesse of divine reprobation : but from these resolutions i was quite taken off , by certain information , that the learned m. kendall ( heretofore fellow of exeter colledge in the university of oxford ) hath undertaken you . but i detaine you and the reader too long with prefacing , i shall therefore presently without more adoe addresse my selfe unto the encounter with you . in three places you except against d. twisse . i shall consider them severally . to begin with the first . m r goodwin p. . . c. . §. . it is indeed the judgement of some learned men , that the purpose or intent of god to permit , or suffer such , or such a thing to be done , or such or such an accident to come to passe , supposeth a necessity ( at least a syllogisticall or consequentiall necessity ) of the coming of it to passe . but that the truth lieth on the other side of the way , appears by the light of this consideration . if whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth , to permit to come to passe in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , should by vertue of such an intention or decree , necessarily come to passe , then all things possible to be , ( or at least ten thousand things more than ever shall be ) must be , yea , and this necessarily . for ( doubtlesse god hath decreed , and intendeth , to leave naturall causes , generally , to their naturall and proper operations , and productions ; yea and voluntary causes also , under a power , and at liberty to act ten thousand things more , then ever they will doe , or shall doe . for example ; god intendeth , and hath decreed , to permit , that fire shall burne , what combustible matter soever it shall take hold of , or that shall be cast into it , that one sparke of it falling into a barrell of dried gunpowder , should suddainly fire it , &c. but it doth not follow from hence , that therefore every thing that is combustible in the world , shall be burnt with fire ; or that every barrell of dry gun-powder shall be blown up with sparkes of fire falling into them . so ( in the instance formerly mentioned ) god had decreed to permit the lords of keilah to deliver up david into sauls hand , in case he had stayed in their citty , till sauls coming to demand him : this is evident from the text. but it did not follow from this permissive decree of god , that therefore these lords must necessarily deliuer up david into sauls hand : for we know they did it not . so likewise , god hath decreed to permit any man to destroy the life of another whom he meets with ( i meane , in respect of a naturall power to doe the execution ) but it followeth not from hence , that therefore every man must necessarily murther , or destroy the life of his brother , that cometh in his way . so that evident it is , that no decree of god whatsoeuer , which is simply and purely permissive , doth import any necessity at all of the perpetration , or coming to passe , of the thing so decreed . god permitted adam to eate of every tree in the garden of eden ( the tree of knowledge of good and evill only excepted ) & therefore certainly had decreed , or intended this permission : yet was not adam any waies necessitated by any vertue or influence of this decree upon him , to eate of every of these trees ; nor is it in the least degree credible , that ever he did eate of every of them , nor yet of any one of them , but only that , which was prohibited unto him , his ejection out of this garden following so suddainly after this patent , or permission granted unto him . the reason why no decree of god , that is purely and barely permissive , either induceth or supposeth any necessity of the coming to passe , of what is only so decreed , is this . first , because no such decree doth any waies interesse god to any manner of interposall , either by his wisdome , power , or providence in what kind soever , towards the effecting or bringing to passe of what is so decreed . so that such events , which are no otherwise decreed by god , then thus , are in the same posture of contingency , in the same possibility of being , or not being , wherein they would have been , had there been no such decree at all concerning them . secondly , neither doth any such decree in god , suppose a futurity of such a concurrence of causes simply requisite and necessary for the bringing of things , so decreed , to passe , which will actually bring them to passe . though god hath decreed , that a sparke , or coale of fire falling , i. e. in case it shall fall into a barrell of gun-powder , shall fire it , yet it doth not follow from hence , that he hath decreed , that any such sparke or coale , shall fall into it , without which notwithstanding the effect decreed , viz. the firing of this powder , will not come to passe . or if he said , that god hath decreed that such a sparke , or coale , shall fall into the said barrell of powder , now is not the decree barely permissive , but operative and assertive , and such which engageth the decreer to interpose effectually for the bringing of the thing decreed to passe . but such decrees as this , in matters of that nature we deny to be in god. ieanes . dr twisse doth grant , that gods permission in a complicate notion , as it takes in other acts of gods providence , doth inferre the things permitted : and what he saith of gods actuall permission in time , is applyable unto his permissive decrees before all time ; for as his workings are agreeable unto his effective , so his permissions are suitable unto his permissive decrees . but now that he any where affirmeth , that the decrees of god , which are simply , purely , and barely permissive , or that the bare , single , and sole permission of god , doe import any necessity at all of the perpetration , or coming to passe , of what is only so decreed , and permitted , i utterly deny . and if you had been so well versed in d. twisse , as it was fit for him , that undertakes a refutation of him , you would never have charged him with that , which he , in a whole digression , professedly impugneth ; for which , you may see , how he is taxed ( though very modestly ) by m. rutherford , in a scholasticall disputation of his , de divinâ providentiâ cap. . d. twisse in the third digression of the second book of his vindiciae &c. examineth that proposition of perkins : quod deus non impedit , ideo evenit , quia deus non impedit . that which god doth not hinder , doth therefore come to passe , because god doth not hinder it , ( i. ) because he doth permit it : where he not only professeth his dislike of it , but also refutes it . this section then might very well have been spared for in it you fight but with your own shadow , and doe not at all oppose the opinion of d. twisse , who fully accords with you in this particular ; that gods simple and sole permissions , and consequently his decrees , that are simply , purely , and barely permissive , are not illative of those things which are only so decreed , and permitted . to cleare this i shall give you an abstract of this digression . he examineth the truth of this proposition . . in the matter , or object of an act naturall . . in the matter , or object of an act morall , good or bad . . first , as concerning naturall actions , he hinteth a distinction , between a proper permission of them , and a permission of them improperly so called ; that is opposed unto a naturall , reall , or physicall restraint , this unto a morall restraint , which is by way of disswasion . first then if we take permission properly , as it is opposed , unto a naturall , reall , and physicall restraint , and denoteth a suspension thereof , d. twisse is so farre from affirming , that they come to passe , upon gods single , sole , and bare permission , as that he maketh gods positive effection ( whether by way of predetermination , or concurrence , he leaves to be discussed in another place ) requisite unto the existence of them , without which they never can exist ; for god is the principall and immediate cause of all beings and entities , and therefore of all naturall actions . and againe afterwards . secondly , if we take permission as it is opposed unto , and denoteth a suspension of , a restraint improperly so called ; a morall restraint by way of disswasion ; so d. twisse is expresse in deniall of any necessity to be inferred , from such a permission of the comming to passe , of what is so . permitted . ad actiones naturales quod attinet , quatenus permissio not at suspensionem actionis moralis in suadendo aut dissuadendo positae , sic non sequitur , quicquid permititur illud fit . neque enim quod suadetur quocunque modo , & quantumvis efficaciter , necesse est , ut fiat , nec quod dissuadetur quocunque modo quantumvis efficaciter , necesse est , ut non fiat ; ergo multo minus ex co quod permititur aliquid fieri , vel non fieri , sequitur necessario oportere illud fieri vel non fieri . secondly , from naturall actions he proceedes on to morall , and he begineth with good and gracious actions ; in which he resolveth that naturall permission , hoc est , non in genere morali sed physico , can have no place , for ( saith he ) this would suppose , that the creature can be carryed unto actions truly good , without any speciall supply or assistance of gods spirit and grace , which we deny can be in the state of nature entire and pure , how much lesse is it possible in the state of nature corrupted : whence also ( saith he ) it would follow , that god doth not antecedently worke and cause every act truly good , and that by a speciall supply , aid , or assistance . as for gods permission of good actions in genere morali , he referreth to what he hath spoken touching the like permission of naturall actions , only he addeth , that god allwayes concurreth unto an act truly good by a speciall assistance & that both as a physicall and morrall agent : wherefore ( saith he ) in this gracious administration of things there is no place at all for permission , as it is opposed unto effection or farthering ; for god worketh , causeth , and promoteth every good worke in his children ; although permission may have roome there , as it simply signifieth non-hindrance , for questionlesse god doth not hinder the good workes of his people , which he himselfe causeth and worketh . thus you see , that by d. twisse his opinion , good workes doe not follow upon gods bare , single , and sole permission , for they cannot be performed without the powerfull operation of gods holy spirit , which worketh in us both the will and the deed . lastly , as touching evill or sinfull actions , in them divine permission challengeth a proper and peculiar place , both as permission is opposed unto efficiency , as also unto restraint . first , as 't is opposed unto efficiency , for the obliquity of them being a privation , is not capable of an efficient cause . secondly , as 't is opposed unto restraint , for god doth not hinder sinfull actions many times , though it be alwaies in his power . but now if we speake of the permission of sinfull actions , in genere morali , or suasorio ; so all unanimously affirme , that god perswadeth or exhorteth none unto evill : for if god should interpose his authority , by commanding , advising , or exhorting , whatsoever should be done hereupon , would be lawfully done . but though god himselfe doth not exhort or perswade unto sinne , yet he gives way many times , and that justly , unto the temptations of satan , and his instruments ; nay , he himselfe by his providence , layes before men outward objects and occasions , suitable unto their inward corruptions ; as a goodly babylonish garment , two hundred sheckles of silver , and a wedge of gold of fifty sheckles weight , before the covetous eyes of achan : beautifull and naked bathsheba before the lustfull eyes of david . next he suffereth those corruptions , that is , either he doth not cure them by his renewing grace , or he doth not bridle them by his restraining grace , but lets them have their full swinge , without check or controll : in his children he doth not actuate and rouze their graces , but lets them lye as it were in a deep sleepe , &c. besides , he concurreth unto those motions of the soule , ( as touching the entity of them ) unto which men are stirred , by view of objects , that are agreeable unto either their unsubdued or unbridled lusts . from the complication of all these , a particular obduration , and sinfull action followeth , so that you take in also , the concourse of god , so farre as concernes the substance , or matter of such a sinfull action . now from this variety of providences going before a sinfull action , d. twisse drawes this following conclusion . ex quib us manifestum videtur , ex solâ permissione nequaquam consequi , quod fiat aliquid ; & proinde etiam minus verum videtur illud perkinsei , quicquid deus non impedit ; ideo fit , quia deus non impedit . from which it seems manifest , that it in no waies followeth , that a thing cometh to passe upon gods sole permission , and therefore that of perkins seemes not to be true , whatsoever god doth not hinder therefore cometh to passe , because god doth not hinder it . in the next place he bringeth in , and answereth objections . first , this is the opinion not only of perkins but of piscator also . secondly , our adversaries ( by name vorstius and arminius ) grant it , and their concession should be embraced , as making much for the defence of our opinion . thirdly , there is a reason , which at the first blush seems convincing , unto which not only vorstius , but also piscator yeeldeth , and 't is drawn from the nature of relatives : for , seeing permission and the thing permitted are relatives , it seems necessary , that they exist together : upon supposall then of the permission of the coming to passe of such a thing it seems necessary , that that which is so permitted , doe come to passe . unto these he dispatcheth an answer severally , in the same order as they were propounded . first , as for our divines , he acknowledgeth , that they have so thought , but truth is to be preferred before any testimony ; amicus socrates , amicus plato , magis amica veritas : for 't is but reason that we should have regard unto , and care of , only truth , that so we may ( with the apostle ) say , we can doe nothing against the truth , but for the truth . secondly , he sheweth , how that for the existence of a thing , piscator doth not acquiesce in gods sole permission , but flyeth unto gods government , and that so powerfull , as that it bowes , bends , and turnes the wills of men whither he pleaseth . as for the concessions of arminius and vorstius , seeing they are erroneous , a patronage of our opinio● drawn from them is not to be valued so much , as to be built upon . verum tanti non est hujusmodi patrocinium , ut errone is quantumvis propitiis innitamur assertionibus . as for the reason , that is of no force or strength , for we may as well conclude , that because god did from eternall will or decree to create the world , therefore the world from eternall was created ; or because god from eternall foreknew that the world should be , therefore the world did exist from eternall : for there is no lesse relation , between the willing of a thing , and the thing willed ; the decree of a thing , and the thing decreed ; the foreknowledge of a thing , and the thing foreknowne ; than there is , between the permission of a thing , and the thing permitted . and there is between them as a relation , so also a reciprocation : whereupon it followeth , that if god willeth or decreeth a thing , it is willed or decreed ; if he foreknowes a thing , it is foreknown ; if he permits a thing it is permitted : but as it doth not follow , a thing is willed or decreed , therefore 't is actually existent ; a thing is foreknown , therefore it is ; in like manner it doth not follow , a thing is permitted , therefore it is actually : and indeed if gods meere permission did inferre the existence of a thing upon this ground , because permission and the thing permitted are relatives , it would hold as well concerning the permission of man , as god ; but 't is manifest , that it followeth not upon mans permission , that whatsoever he permitteth , cometh to passe . but it may be objected , it is necessary that whatsoever is willed by god , doe at some time or other , come to passe , therefore we may say the same of what is permitted by god. he denyeth the consequence , and he giveth this reason for his denyall , because gods permission is not so effectuall unto the existence of a thing , as his volition ; and yet he acknowledgeth , that this kind of consequence is true in naturall causes , but this is not in regard only of permission , but from the determination of a naturall cause to worke , unlesse it be hindered : as concerning rationall and free agents , this consequence , a thing is permitted to come to passe , therefore it doth come to passe , is of no force at all . the last and principall objection is concerning the permission of sinne in particular ; without grace sinne cannot be avoyded , and the permission of sinne stands in the denyall of grace : it is cleare therefore that upon the permission of sinne , sinne necessarily ensueth . first , he answereth , this in no-wise followeth from the nature of permission in generall ( as some divines , have thought ) but from a peculiar manner of gods permission , standing in a constant denyall of grace without which sinne can be shunned by none . secondly he distinguisheth of a twofold consideration of sinne , indefinite or definite , and that either in regard of sorts and kinds , or else particular actions . first , he grants , that upon the permission of sinne , that is , the denyall of grace , sinne followeth indefinitely , and in generall ; so that as long as god with-holds his grace , a man sinnes , either in doing what is forbidden , or else in doing what is commanded in a wrong way or manner . he also sinnes in omitting what is commanded , or in abstaining from what is forbidden in an unholy , and ungratious way or manner . and this he exemplifieth both in the unregenerate and regenerate . first , whiles god denies to , or withholds from , an unregenerate man , his habituall grace , or grace of regeneration ; whilest he suffereth his spirituall diseases to goe uncured , his corruptions unsubdued , and unmortified , so long he cannot but sinne in all his rationall and deliberate , both actions and omissions . first , all his actions are sinnes of commission , either a doing of what is forbidden , or a sinfull performance of what is commanded , not out of right principles , nor for the due and requisite end . secondly all his omissions are sinfull , for they are either of what is injoyned , or else if they be of what is prohibited , they are not sanctified , proceeding from the love of god , and directed unto the glory of god above all . next as for the regenerate , if god deny unto , or withhold from them , never so little a while , his actuall grace , the actuall supply , and assistance of his spirit , they sinne in whatsoever they performe , or forbeare ; and indeed it is no wonder , that upon gods suspending the aide of his actuall grace , the regenerate breake out into sinne , in whom there is a flesh alwaies lusting against the spirit , whose graces are imperfect , and corruptions naturall , and therefore active , upon removall of impediments ; for sinne in adam followed upon the sole suspension of actuall assistance to will that good , unto which he had an habituall fitnesse ; and yet in him propension unto good was perfect , without any mixture of inclination unto evill . secondly , he denyeth , that upon the bare permission of sinne , sinne followeth definitely , either for sorts and kinds , or particular actions . but here first , he implyeth an exception of generall , and comprehensive sinnes , that either lye at the root of , or are concomitant unto every sinne , as inordinate selfe-love &c. fortè dici potest , ex carentià justitiae originalis , sequi necessario , ut creatura feratur in amorem sui inordinatè , adeo ut quicquid operatur , illud faciat propter se , non autem propter deum . secondly he desireth , chiefly to be understood concerning the imperate or externall actions of sin , and such actions of the will , as are of efficacy , purposes , resolutions , &c. for upon gods permission , that is , not curing , or healing , not subduing of particular sinfull habits . v. g. covetousnesse , luxury , there doe necessarily follow such sinfull actions of the will , as are stiled usually to be of complacency , that doe , quoad specificationem , for their sort and kind , answer such habits , to wit , velleities , desires , wouldings , and wishings , likeings , approbations , &c. a covetous man whilest under the reigne of covetousnesse , cannot but love , like , and covet after things which he judgeth to be gainfull ; a luxurious voluptuary cannot but love , approve , and long after things which he knoweth to be pleasant and delightfull unto his senses . omnino videtur deum non posse impedire , ne avarus velit & concupiscat ea , quae videntur utilia ; vel libidinosus ea , quae titillant tanquam jucunda : nam velle & concupiscere , nihil aliud est , quam desiderare ; at avarus quà avarus necessario talia desiderat & concupiscit , aliàs non esset avarus , & libidinosus quà libidinosus talia desiderat , aliâs minime dicendus esset libidinosus . lib. . part . . pag. . for habits work ad modum naturae necessarily . a covetous person , as covetous , necessarily desireth and coveteth things profitable ; a lustfull or uncleane person necessarily desireth such objects and actions as are uncleane , &c. and yet of these too , we cannot say that they follow meerely upon his permission , secluding his concourse . these limitations premised ; let us returne to consider what he denyeth , to wit , that upon the bare permission of sinne , sinne doth not follow definitely for sorts or kinds , or particular actions . sine gratiâ ( saith he ) abstineri potest a peccato definite quo ad certam speciem , vel etiam in individuo consideratam . there is no particular sinne , especially of commission , but may be abstained from without grace : and therefore upon the meere and bare denyall or with-holding of grace , this or that particular sinne doth not follow . for first , those that are destitute of habituall grace , the grace of regeneration , may yet be free from diverse particular sinfull habits . v. g. covetousnesse , luxury , &c. secondly , in those that have such particular sinfull habits ; those habits are not actuated , especially by outward actions , upon gods bare and single permission , his sole denyall of grace . this he proves by reason and scripture . first by reason , because the subject of an actuall sinne of commission , is a naturall act , and unto the performance of a naturall act , gods bare permission is not sufficient , malum ( quod dicitur ) semper habitat in alieno fundo ; & peccatum omne quod in commissione versatur , semper habet actum aliquém naturalem substratum ; adeo ut ejusmodi peccatum aliquod nunquam exeat in actum ex solâ negatione gratiae , nisi etiam aliqua alia rerum administratio siat , secundum quam actus aliquis naturalis patretur , quae sit propria materia ta lis deformitatis . secondly by scripture , in which gods wonderfull providence working and prostituting men unto sinne , is never set forth unto us , by a sole and single permission : but he is said , sometimes to give men up unto vile affections , unto a reprobate mind , unto strong delusions , to send an evill spirit between men , to put a lying spirit in their mouthes , to mingle a perverse spirit in them , &c. he told david , that he would take away his concubines , and give them unto his sonne absolon ; he told jeroboam , that he would rent the kingdome out of the hands of solomon , and give ten tribes unto jeroboam , which was done by their defection , and revolt from the house of judah . now they who think that all these things might be dispatched , and accomplished by gods sole and single permission , take i confesse ( saith he ) a short cut , but they send away the reader , that is desirous to find out the truth , empty and voyd of all satisfaction . upon this he concludes , that as often as any thing comes to passe according to gods permission , so often gods permission is not solitary or single , but hath another government of things , another administration of divine providence , accompanying it ; which he explaineth at large touching sinne : unto the performance of this or that particular sinfull action , there are required a leading into temptation , an affording of objects , occasions , and opportunities , a letting loose of satan , the concourse of god by way of previous motion unto the matter , or subject of the action , a removeall of all impediments , whether holy and gratious , or else but meerely naturall . the explanation of all which , you may there see at large in this digression . out of this he inferreth a distinction of permission , into efficacious and unefficacious , and concludes that the permission of sinne is not so much efficacious of it selfe , as in regard of that either obduration , or excecation , or both , concerning either temporall , or spirituall good things , with which it is conioyned . hinc constare poterit permissionem peccati particularis commodè dividendam esse , in permissionem efficacem & inefficacem , & permissionem efficacem non tam ex sese efficacem esse , quam proratione ejus , cum quâ semper conjuncta est , obdurationis , excaecationis , aut utriusque , sive quoad bona spiritualia , siue quoad bona temporalia . but i shall trouble neither the reader , nor you , with transcribing any more out of this digression . and indeed this is enough to satisfy him , and convince you , that you have wronged d. twisse , in pinning upon him such an opinion , which he opposeth with farre greater strength of argument , then you your selfe . this is sufficient to answer this whole section ; but i shall examine whatsoever is considerable in it . the proposition you charge upon d. twisse is this , that the purpose or intent of god , to permit , or suffer such or such a thing to be done , or such or such an accident to come to passe , supposeth a necessity ( at least a syllogisticall or consequentiall necessity ) of the coming of it to passe . he that is acquainted with the workes of d. twisse , knoweth , that this proposition is to be understood . . concerning only the permission of evill . . concerning not only gods act , the permission of evill , but also the being of evill by gods permission . . concerning not a single , sole , and bare permission , but an efficacious permission , that hath severall acts of gods providence accompanying it . first , it is to be understood only concerning the permission of evill , and that as touching the formall , the pravity or obliquity of it , which being a privation is uncapable of being an object of an effective decree . this i might cleare from most of those places , wherein this distinction between an effective and permissive decree is propounded ; but i shall spare to name them at this present , and content my selfe , with the alleadging of one place , where he expressely puts this limitation upon the proposition we speake of , de scientiâ mediâ . pag. . col . . non pauci sunt , non modo ex nostris , sed & ex theologis nobis oppositis , tam pontificiis , quam arminianis , qui putant , infallibitèr futurum esse , quicquid &c. deus permittere decreverit , hoc est autem , duntaxat in genere mali . nam quae fiunt bona , ea fieri decrevit deus non tam ipso permittente , quam faciente , in quocunque genere bona fuerint , sive in genere boni moralis , sive naturalis sive supernaturalis ; summa , sive in genere entis bonum fuit , sive in genere moris . and by this it is apparent , that your instance in gods decree to permit fire to burne combustible matter , is altogether impertinent , for that is quid bonum in genere entis . secondly , he makes gods permissive decree to be , not only concerning gods act , the permission of evill , but also the being of evill by his permission ; so that not only the permission of evill is the object of his will , but the being of it also . sententia perkinsei nostrorumque theologorum est , lapsum adami evenisse voluntate dei transeunte , non duntaxat in suam permissionem , sed etiam in rem permissam , hoc est , deum voluisse , ut adamus laberetur , ipso permittente . vindic. l. . part . . pag. . what he speaks of gods will , to permit adams fall , may be accommodated to his permissive will or decree , of any other sinne . lastly , that he speakes of not a bare , but efficacious permission , so termed , not formally , but by way of concomitancy , the digression which i have abbreviated is a proofe of undeniable evidence ; and i am so confident of your ingenuity , as that i doubt not , but you will acknowledge as much : and therefore your objection , which runnes only concerning a decree that is simply , barely , and purely permissive , is nothing at all to the purpose . well then , take this proposition , ( the purpose or intend of god , to permit or suffer , such or such a thing to be done , inferreth a necessity of the coming of it to passe ) in the sense and meaning of d. twisse , to wit , concerning an efficacious permission of evill ; and if you can accommodate your objection unto it , i will confesse that you can work a miracle in logick . mr goodwin . but that the truth lyeth on the other side of the way , appears by the light of this consideration , if whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth to permit to come to passe , in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , should by vertue of such an intention or decree necessarily come to passe , then all things possible to be ; or at least , ten thousand things more , than ever shall be , must be , yea and this necessarily , ieanes . if you supply the propositions that are wanting , and make this a compleate syllogisme , it will be in secundo modo syllogismi connexi , qui tollit consequens , ut tollat antecedens . and then your conclusion , if your syllogisme be true for forme , will be , therefore whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth to permit to come to passe in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , shall not by vertue of such an intention or decree necessarily come to passe . and then if in your syllogisme there be not committed that fallacy , which is called ignoratio elenchi , never syllogisme framed in this world , was sicke of this disease ; for the conclusion you inferre , is no-wise opposite unto any thing in d. twisse . can you ( dare you ) say , that d. twisse any where affirmeth , that whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth to permit to come to passe , in any case upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , shall by vertue of such an intention or decree , necessarily come to passe ? consult all his bookes that are extant , whether in latine or english ; and if you can prove any such passage to be in them , either in expresse termes , or by just consequence , i will acknowledge that i have wronged you , in as shamefull and publicke a manner as you will prescribe : and if you cannot make good , that d. twisse hath said any such thing , it will be very agreeable unto justice , that you make a retraction of your mistake . the palpable grossenesse of the injury that you doe d. twisse , will the better appeare , if you compare the conclusion which you father upon him , with the example you bring a little after . god intendeth , and hath decreed to permit , that fire shall burne what combustible matter soever it shall take hold off , or that shall be cast into it , that one sparke of it , falling into a barrell of dry gun-powder , should suddainly fire it ; but it doth not follow from hence , that therefore every thing that is combustible in the world , shall be burnt with fire , or that every barrell of dryed gun-powder , shall be blown up with sparkes of fire falling into them . here you make as if the permissive decree d. twisse speakes of , were concerning gods permission of things to come to passe , not absolutely but conditionally , in such a case , upon such termes , upon such a supposition ; and as if he affirmed , that whatsoever god hath decreed to permit to come to passe , only conditionally , should by vertue of such a decree come to passe absolutely , and necessarily . this is one of the absurdest assertions that ever dropt from the pen of a rationall man , and in d. twisse there is nothing sounding like it : you doe very ill therefore ( that i say no more ) to asperse him with it . nay d. twisse is so farre from making a bare , permissive * conditionall decree , to be illative of the absolute existence of whatsoever god hath decreed to permit to come to passe conditionally , as that he denyeth any such inference to be made from an effective conditionall decree . though it were very strange ( saith he against cotton pag. . ) that any thing should not be accomplished which god doth will absolutely , yet surely , it is nothing strange , that that should not be accomplished , which god doth will to come to passe only upon a condition , for the condition failing , there is no reason why we should expect the accomplishment thereof : how often doth he tell you , that for god to decree the salvation of all men , only conditionally , in case they believe and repent , is no more to decree their salvation , than their damnation ; for as he hath purposed salvation to men upon condition of faith , and repentance ; so on the other side , it is as undoubtedly true , that god hath ordained , that whosoever , coming to ripe yeares , shall not believe and repent , shall be damned : and as to decree the salvation of all men only conditionally , is no more to decree their salvation than their damnation ; so to decree to permit a thing to come to passe only conditionally , in such a case , upon such termes , upon such a supposition , is no more to decree the permission of it , than the not permission of it to come to passe : what is said of conditionall propositions , is true of conditionall purposes , both effective and permissive , nihil ponunt in esse , sc . absolute & simpliciter , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . to goe one step farther , d. twisse is very unlikely to conclude from gods decree , barely to permit a thing to come to passe conditionally , in such a case , upon such termes , or upon such a supposition , that therefore the thing so decreed , shall absolutely come to passe , because if we speake of positive things , he is clearely and constantly of the opinion , that we cannot say truly , that they shall come to passe , so much as conditionally in such a case , upon such termes , &c. unlesse god decree not barely to permit , but to worke and effect the thing conditionated , upon supposall of such conditions , de scientià medià . p. . ad eundem modum concedimus omnem enunciationem conditionatam de futuris conditionatis esse necessariam , modo deus decreverit , posità tali conditione , rem ipsam conditionatam effectam dare : quod nisi ponamus deum decrevisse , prorsus praeter omnem analogiam disserit suarez ; dum prophetiarum comminantium & promittentium eandem rationem esse vult , atque propositionum de futuris contingentibus conditionatarum qualiumcunque , quas etiam prophetias appellat suarez . now if he will not allow us to make any inference of the conditionall futurition of positive things , from a decree that is barely permissive , and conditionall , it would be very strange , if he himselfe should make such a permissive conditionall decree , to be illative of the absolute futurition of whatsoever is so decreed . and thus have i done with your conclusion , which i affirme not to be opposite unto any proposition in d. twisse his bookes , and i hope you will pardon me , if i presume so farre , as to challenge you to prove the contrary . in the next place , i shall make bold , to question the truth of the consequence of your major proposition , which is this , if whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth to permit to come to passe , in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , should by vertue of such an intention or deeree necessarily come to passe , then all things possible to be , &c. must be , yea , and this necessarily . and the reason why i question it , is because i much doubt , whether god hath decreed , or intendeth to permit to come to passe conditionally , in some case , upon some termes , or upon some supposition or other , all things whatsoever , that are possible , all things ( i say ) that are possible , ( whether unto all naturall or necessary , or else all free and rationall agents ) that is not only such as doe exist , have existed , or shall exist for the future , but also all that are in any possibility of existence , whose existence implyeth no contradiction . and that your satisfaction unto this , may be the fuller and distincter , i shall branch it into some particulars , which i shall entreat you to cleare up unto me . first , there are many things that are meerely possible , numberlesse millions of men and angells , which have not , never had , never shall have actuall existence : and unto these there is possible , as great a variety of both actions and sufferings , which that god hath decreed to permit to come to passe conditionally , in some case , upon some termes , upon some supposition or other , is not ( i confesse ) within the compasse of my creed ; but yet i shall be willing to be instructed by you , provided that you prove what you undertake to teach me . now that i am not much to be blamed for making a doubt of this , will ( i hope ) be confessed by you , if you please to consider . first , that didacus alvarez ( a very learned man ) holds it to be the more probable opinion that there are not in god conditionall decrees , concerning all future conditionall contingents , which may be framed by our understandings in infinite combinations , as well concerning things actually existent , as also things possible , but only in comparison of those future conditionalls , which are revealed by god , christ , or the prophets , &c. and he insinuates this reason out of ledesma , because other conditionall decrees would be in vaine , impertinent , and no waies conducing unto gods providence , and government of the world : which reason is as well applyable unto conditionall permissive , as conditionall effective decrees . m. rutherford ( i know ) argueth somewhat against this , but i believe you will not plow with his heifer . secondly , that d. twisse not only affirmeth but proveth , that things meerely possible , are not the object of gods decree , in his book against iackson p. . . & . looke we ( saith he ) upon the decrees of men , the wisest of men , were they ever known to decree that a thing may be done ? but rather supposing many things may be done , they make choyce to decree the doing of such courses , as seeme most convenient : things are possible without any reference to the decrees of god , but only in reference to his power . that is possible unto god , which he can doe , or which he hath power to cause , that it be brought to passe ; as for example , before the world was made , it was possible that the world should be made ; was this by vertue of gods decree ? did god decree it to be possible ? if he did , seeing his decrees are free , it followeth that he might have chosen whether the world should have been possible or no. his arguments are applyable unto gods permissive as well as effective decrees , unto his conditionall , as well as absolute decrees . from agents meerely possible , passe we on unto such as doe exist in some difference of time or other , and unto them some things are possible only in regard of an obedientiall power , some things are possible in regard of a naturall power . first some things are possible , and that unto all sorts of second agents , only in regard of an obedientiall power ; thus 't is possible for ten thousand asses besides balaam's to speake , for ten thousand peices of iron ( besides that mentioned kings . ) to swimme ; 't is possible for wine to be made of ten thousand pots of water &c. besides those sixe we read of iohn . . it is possible of stones to have children raised up unto abraham : now that god hath decreed to permit all things thus possible to come to passe conditionally , in some case , is as i take it false , and i shall give you my reason out of d. twisse his digression , de naturà permissionis . lib. . part . . pag. . col . . irrationalia dicuntur permitti , quoties sinuntur ferri secundùm naturam suam , quemadmodum cum lapis sinitur ferri deorsum ; ignis sinitur grassari in domas hominum : itaque circa agentia naturalia dum versatur permissio , palam est praesupponi , non modo propensionem , sed & determinationem ad agendum ; non sic , quoties versatur circa agentia rationalia ; nam & rationales substantiae , quando permittuntur agere , sinuntur etiam ferri secundum naturam suam ; aut alia esset ratio permissionis rerum rationalium , quam irrationalium , quod minime videtur . irrationall agents are said to be permitted as often as they are suffered to be carryed according to their natures ; as when a stone is suffered to move downeward , fire to rage upon the howses of men : so also rationall substances when they are permitted to act , they are suffered to be moved , or carryed agreeably unto their natures , quoties permittuntur sibi pro domesticae inclinationis ratione quà libet feruntur , ib. pag. . c. . or otherwise the nature of the permission of things rationall and irrationall , would differ in regard of forme , where as the difference between them is only in respect of the matter about which each is conversant , as he sheweth presently after the words quoted . againe of those things which are possible unto all sorts and kinds of agents , there are some which god hath absolutely decreed to effect , or bring to passe by his operation , some which he hath absolutely decreed to hinder or restraine . now whatsoever god worketh or effecteth , he doth not permit , as permission is opposed unto effection , and therefore it cannot be the object of a bare permissive decree , but of an operative or effective . secondly , what he hindereth or restraineth either immediately by himselfe , or mediately by second causes , he cannot be at all said to permit , and therefore he never decreed to permit it ; more briefely , god cannot be said to decree the bare and naked permission of that whose effection or working he hath decreed ; he cannot be said to decree the permission of that , whose hinderance or restraint he hath intended , but of things possible , he hath decreed the effection of some , the restraint and hinderance of others : and therefore there are many things possible , which he hath not decreed barely to permit . i but perhaps you will say , that though whatsoever god hath absolutely decreed to effect or hinder , he hath not decreed to permit to come to passe absolutely , yet he hath decreed it shall come to passe conditionally , in such cases , upon such termes , and upon such a supposition . but this is spoken gratis , and therefore i doe beseech you to evidence it by dint of argument , unto which if convincing , i hope i shall submit . but i imagine i see a back-doore , at which you intend to runne away , and save your selfe the labour of medling with that worke , which i have here cut out for you , and that is the clause which you have added by way of parenthesis in your consequent ( or at least ten thousand things more than ever shall be ( here your consequent hath two propositions in it , one universall , then all things possible must be , yea and this necessarily ; another particular , at least ten thousand things more than ever shall be , must be , and this necessarily . and these two propositions are propounded in a disjunctive manner , so that if the first be routed and miscarry , the other may serve as a reserve to fly unto , this is the shift of a diffident and fearfull disputant , that knowes not well what to say or hold : and therefore beneath that acumen , which i may justly expect from a man of your great wit and learning : how commendable it is , will appeare , if you take your consequent by it selfe , and sever it from the antecedent , and then parralell it with others of the like nature which no man can deny to be absurd and ridiculous ; as all men are white , or at least ten thousand times more then are blacke : all men are unregenerate , or at least more then are regenerate : all men are healthy and sound , or at least more then are sick . but you pretend unto a proofe of the consequence of your major , we will heare what you say . m r goodwin . for doubtlesse god hath decreed , and intendeth to leave naturall causes generally , to their naturall and proper operations and productions , yea and voluntary causes also , under a power , and at liberty to act ten thousand things more , than ever they will doe or shall doe . ieanes . your major is , if whatsoever god hath decreed or intendeth to permit to come to passe , in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , should by vertue of such an intention or decree , necessarily come to passe , then all things possible to be , or at least ten thousand things more than ever shall be , must be , yea and this necessarily . now how the consequence hereof is proved by this your proposition ( i confesse ) passeth my skill . the readiest way to examine the consequence in a connexe syllogisme , is to reduce it unto a categoricall , and the way of that , every ordinary logick will informe you is , by giving a reason of the consequence by a categoricall proposition , and placing it in the roome of the major in your categoricall syllogisme . now take the proofe that you bring of the consequence , or sequell of your major proposition , ( for doubtlesse god hath decreed , and intendeth to leave naturall causes generally , to their naturall , and proper operations , and productions , yea and voluntary causes also , under a power , and at liberty , to act ten thousand times more then ever they will doe or shall doe ) and let it be placed in the roome of your major , and then in what moode and figure will you inferre your conclusion , viz. whatsoever god hath decreed , or intendeth to come to passe , in any case , upon any termes , or any supposition whatsoever , shall not by vertue of such an intention or decree necessarily come to passe . and thus you see how weakely you impugne that proposition which is only of your owne setting up . but let us look upon this passage in it selfe , setting aside the reference it carryeth of a proofe unto the foregoing words , if you understand gods leaving of naturall causes unto their naturall and proper operations , &c. and so also his leaving voluntary causes under a power , and at liberty to act ten thousand things more then ever they will doe or shall doe , so as to make it exclusive of that influence which is by way of previous motion of second causes themselves , whether naturall or voluntary unto all their operations , why your doubtlesse will not carry it , as long as the arguments , by which d. twisse lib. . digres . . proves , that god moves all second causes unto their operations , remaine unanswered by you , and you bring no proofe to the contrary , but your bare word . mr goodwin . so likewise god hath decreed , to permit any man to destroy the life of another whom he meets with ( i meane in respect of a naturall power , to doe the execution ) but it followeth not from hence , that therefore every man must necessarily murder or destroy the life of his brother that cometh in his way . ieanes . unto this i oppose these following arguments . first , god withholds many bloody minded men from actuall murder , as well as he did abimelech from committing adultery , and unto him cannot be permitted the doing of a thing , who is restrayned therefrom ; for permission and restraint are opposed privatively , and therefore cannot be found in the same subject at once , in regard of the same action . secondly , permission of the sin of murder essentially implyeth , a withholding of grace effectuall and necessary , for the avoydance of the sinne of murder : but god doth not withhold from every man that grace , which is effectuall and necessary for avoydance of the sinne of murder ; and therefore he doth not permit every man to commit it . thirdly , permission of outward and imperate acts ( aswell as restraint , unto which it is privatively opposed ) supposeth a propension or inclination unto them , a purpose or desire of them in the agents unto whom they are permitted : but there is not in every man a propension or inclination , a purpose or desire to murder every one that commeth in his way ; therfore god doth not permit every mā to murther every one that cometh in his way . the major is a principle with arminius in his tractate de permissione ; in personâ cui permittitur , duo ponenda , actus istius respectu , primo , vires sufficientes ad actum praestandum , intellige , nisi impediatur : secundo , propensio ad actum producendum , citra hanc enim frustrà permittitur actus , citra illas omnino non permittitur ; nam necessario ad actus praestationem requiruntur : utut adsint illae , nisi propendeat persona , cui permittitur actus , ad actum ipsum , nullo fine & in vagum permittitur . imo nec recte dici potest , quod alicui actus permittatur , qui actus illius praestandi affectu nullo tenetur . but this testimony perhaps may be of small authority with you , however his reason deserves your consideration . d. twisse indeed dissents from him , as touching the permission of the elicite acts of the will , but fully agreeth with him , as concerning the outward and imperate acts thereof , heare his owne words . circa irrationalia agentia si versetur permissio , praesupponit , fateor , ejusmodi propensionem &c. agentia vero rationalia quoties concernit permissio , eadem ratio erit quoad actus ipsorum imperatos : neque enim proprie dicitur quis aut permitti , aut impediri , ne faciat aliquid exterius , nisi praesupponatur hoc ipsum velle , & intendere actu interno aut elicito : ex quo commode dicitur vel permitti facere quod intendebat , vel ne faciat quod volebat impediri , hactenus it aque agnosco propensionem quandam ad agendum praecedaneam esse permissioni . unto what arminius and d. twisse say , i shall adde this reason of mine own . permission and restraint are opposed privatively , and therefore as aristotle hath taught us : l. categ . cap. . s. . sunt circa idem , nulli rei competit privatio , cui non possit etiam competere habitus : and therefore we call not any thing deafe , blind , or dumbe , but what is capable of hearing , sight and speech . in like manner no outward action can properly be permitted unto a man , but what he may be hindered and restrayned from : but now a man cannot be hindered , or restrayned from the performance of an outward action , unto which he hath no propension or inclination , of which he hath no purpose or desire , no more than he can be constrayned unto that , from which he is not averse , therefore neither can such an action be permitted unto him , if we take permission properly , ( as bannes saith ) as it is not nuda negatio , sed privatio . by this time the reader , i suppose , is satisfied , that god doth not permit every man to murther or destroy the life of every one that cometh in his way ; and therefore consequently , he hath not decreed or intended any such permission . as for the limitation which you bring to qualify your assertion , it nothing mends the matter : for i have prooved the assertion to be false in it selfe , by arguments , that feare not the light of your tryall or examination : and false assertions cannot be made good by any limitations whatsoever ; so much i learned when i was a boy from keckerm . system . log. lib. . cap. . quicquid subjecto limitativè tribuitur , id verè tribuitur . but suppose this assertion were justifiable , by some limitation or other , yet not by this , which you bring ; because this naturall power to doe the execution , ( as you speake ) is insufficient to denominate the permission of murther ; because 't is consistent with the opposite of such a permission , restraint from murther , &c. first , because 't is insufficient to denominate the permission of murther : a naturall power to performe an action is essentially requisite unto the permission thereof , but it is not only the essentiall requisite thereunto , and therefore an insufficient ground for the affirmation of it . if it be lawfull to affirme a predicate of a subject in respect of the presence of one essentiall requisite unto the said predicate , when there are wanting any other things essentially required thereunto also , as absurd propositions as are imagineable , will be hence justified : as that beasts and plants are men , and men beasts ; for of beasts and plants there are affirmed diverse things , which doe agree unto man essentially ; and so on the other side , diverse things are predicated of men essentially , which are also essentiall unto beasts and plants . secondly , a naturall power to destroy the life of another , is consistent with the opposite of such a permission , to wit , restraint from the murther of him : a power to produce an act may be hindered majoris aut aequalis saltem potentiae oppositione , saith your arminius , by opposall of a greater , or at least an equall power : though a man have not only a power , but a will , a desire , and purpose to take away the life of another , yet he may be restrained , not only by feare of punishment , dictates of a naturall conscience within , but also by opposition of a greater or equall power without . now permission and restraint are privatively opposed , and therefore we cannot say , that an action is permitted in regard of that which is common unto both permission and restraint , and may be found , as well when an action is restrained , as when it is permitted . if i should say that a blind man sees , in respect of the first naturall power of seeing ; that a deafe man hears , in respect of the first naturall power of hearing ; you would say that my limitation were absurd and ridiculous : because this naturall first power of seeing is found both in the blind and the seeing ; and we may say the same of the first power of hearing . yet this limitation is as justifiable as yours ; for the naturall power you speake of , to doe the execution , is found as well in the restraint , as in the permission of murther mr goodwin . god permitted adam to eate of every tree in the garden of eden ( the tree of knowledge of good and evill only excepted , gen. . , . ) and therefore certainly had decreed , or intended , this permission : yet was not adam any waies necessitated by any vertue , or influence of this decree upon him , to eate of every one of these trees ; nor is it in the least degree credible , that ever he did eate of every of them , nor yet of any one of them , but only that which was prohibited unto him , his ejection out of this garden following so suddainly after this patent , or permission granted unto him . ieanes . the permission spoken of , gen. . . was morall or legall , in genere officii , not naturall or physicall , in genere facti , and therefore nothing at all to the purpose . mr goodwin . neither doth any such decree in god , suppose a futurity of such a concurrence of causes , simply requisite and necessary , for the bringing of things , so decreed , to passe , which will actually bring them to passe : though god hath decreed that a sparke , or coale of fire , falling i. e. in case it shall fall , into a barrell of gunpowder , shall fire it , yet it doth not follow from hence , that he hath decreed , that any such sparke , or coale shall fall into it ; without which notwithstanding the effect decreed , viz. the firing of this powder will not come to passe . ieanes . first , arminius tells you , that the absence of one necessary cause is sufficient to denominate a restraint . ad productionem effecti requiritur causa integra , sufficiente ad ejus impedimentum unius causae necessariae absentiâ . and if this be true , then permission doth imply a concurrence of causes simply requisite and necessary , for the bringing of things so permitted to passe , which will actually bring them to passe if they be not hindered ; and consequently a permissive decree doth , though not suppose ( that 's not our language ) yet , inferre the futurity of such a presence of all requisite and necessary causes . besides secondly , scheibler met. lib. . c. . t. . p. . n. . out of zabarell acquaints us , how restraint is sometimes taken privatively , pro privatione actionis inferendae , and absence not only of one requisite and necessary cause , but also of one necessary condition is sufficient to denominate such a restraint : sic distantia loci ( saith he ) impedit ne ignis calefaciat aliquod corpus , non quasi distantia illa habeat efficientiam , vel influxum aliquem , sed solum distantia illa dicit privationem actionis in igne , & passionis in calefactibili . in regard of this acception of restraint , fire cannot be said to be permitted to burne combustible matter , unlesse there be an approximation of the fire unto the said combustible matter , for distance of place hinders the fire from burning : distance of place between fire and a barrell of gunpowder , doth hinder the fire from firing or blowing up that barrell of gunpowder , if you take hinderance or restraint in such a sence as scheibler speakes of : answerably unto which fire cannot be said to be permitted to fire or blow up such a barrell of gunpowder , between which , and it , there is such a distance . m r goodwin . or if it be said , that god hath decreed , that such a sparke or coale , shall fall into the said barrell of gunpowder , now is not the decree barely permissive , but operative and assertive , and such which ingageth the decreer to interpose effectually , for the bringing of the thing decreed to passe . but such decrees as this , in matters of that nature , we deny to be in god. ieanes . if by matters of that nature you meane , in such contingent things as the falling of a sparke or coale into a barrell of gunpowder ; why , doctor twisse hath an argument which he takes to be unanswerable , clearly evincing , that whatsoever thing comes to passe , that is good with a transcendentall goodnesse , or metaphysicall , god hath decreed it by an operative or effective decree . you have it in his examination of m. cottons treatise &c. p. , . as also in his consideration of that scoffing pamphlet of tilenus , viz. the doctrine of the synod of dort and arles reduced to the practise . p. , . nay i say more , ( saith he ) that every thing , which cometh to passe , in the revolution of times , was decreed by god ; which i proove by such an argument , for answer whereunto , i challeng the whole nations of both arminans and iesuites . it cannot be denied , but god foresaw from everlasting , whatsoever in time should come to passe , therefore every thing was future from everlasting , otherwise god could not foresee it as future . now let us soberly enquire , how these things which we call future , came to be future , being in their own nature meerely possible , and indifferent , as well not at all to be future , as to be future . of this transmigration of things , out of the condition of things meerely possible ( such as they were of themselves ) into the condition of things future , there must needs be some outward cause . now i demand , what was the cause of this transmigration ? and seeing nothing , without the nature of god , could be the cause hereof ( for this transmigration was from everlasting , but nothing without god was everlasting ) therefore something within the nature of god must be found fit to be the cause hereof . and what may that be ? not the knowledge of god , for that rather presupposeth things future , and so knowable in the kind of things future , then makes them future : therefore it remaines , that the meere decree and will of god , is that which makes them future . if to shift off this , it be said , that the essence of god is the cause hereof ; i farther demand , whether the essence of god be the cause hereof , as working necessarily , or as working freely ; if as working necessarily , then the most contingent things became future by necessity of the divine nature , and consequently he produceth whatsoever he produceth by necessity of nature , which is atheisticall : therefore it remaines , that the essence of god hath made them future , by working freely , and consequently , the meere will and decree of god is the cause of the futurition of all things . he speakes indeed of gods will and decree indefinitely , but that thereunder he comprehends an operative or effective decree , is undeniable . but the force of this reason , you may think easily to evade , by your deniall of gods fore-knowledge : your reasons for which denyall , i shall in the next place proceed to examine . mr goodwin , pag. . cap. . sect. . that prescience or fore-knowledge are not formally or properly in god , is the constant assertion , both of ancient and moderne divinity the learned assertours of the protestant cause are at perfect agreement with their adversaries the schoolemen , and papists , in this . nor is it any wonder at all , that there should be peace , and a concurrence of judgement about such a poynt as this ; even between those , who have many irons of contention otherwise in the fire , considering how obvious , and neere at hand , the truth herein is . for . if foreknowledge were properly and formally in god , then might predestination , election , reprobation , and many other things be properly and formally in him also ; in as much as these are , in the letter and propriety of them , as competible unto him as foreknowledge . nor can there be any reason given for a difference . but unpossible it is that there should be any plurality of things whatsoever , in their distinct and proper natures , and formalities , in god , the infinite simplicity of his nature and being , with open mouth gainsaying it . ly if foreknowledge were properly , or formally in god , there should be somewhat in him corruptible , or changeable . for that which is supposed to be such a fore-knowledge in him to day , by the morrow , suppose the thing , or event fore-known , should in the interim actually come to passe , must needs cease , and be changed ; in as much as there can be no foreknowledge of things that are present , the adequate and appropriate object of this knowledge ( in the propriety of it ) being res futura somewhat that is to come . thirdly ( and lastly ) there is nothing in the creature univocally and formally the same , with any thing which is in god. the reason is ; because then , there must either be somewhat finite in god , or somewhat infinite in the creature : both which are unpossible . but if praescience or fore-knowledge , being properly and formally in the creature , should be properly and formally also in god , there should be somewhat in the creature , univocally and formally the same , with somewhat , which is in god. therefore certainly there is no fore-knowledge , properly so called , in god. ieanes . diverse heathen philosophers i have found censured for denying of gods prescience or foreknowledge , as cicero by austin lib. . de civ . dei cap. . seneca by aureolus . distin . . aristotle by vasquez and others . but that christian divines either ancient or moderne , ( unlesse you will appropriate that name unto socinians ) are so unanimous in impugning of gods foreknowledge , is great newes unto me , and not only unto me , but unto all others , i believe , that have read any thing in either ancient , or moderne divinity . hierome in his third book adversus pelagianos , teacheth ( as franciscus amicus informes me ) that he who takes away prescience from god , takes away the godhead : eum qui a deo praescientiam tollit , divinitatem tollere . as for austin , whom you quote in the margent against this prescience of god ; let any one read that place but now quoted . lib. . de civ . dei. cap. . and he must needs confesse , that he is a zealous assertor of gods foreknowledge against cicero , who opposeth it in favour of the liberty of mans will. and so saith austin . dum vult facere homines liberos , facit sacrilegos : multò sunt autem tolerabiliores ( saith he ) qui vel sydera fata constituunt , quam iste , qui tollit praescientiam futurorum . nam & consiteri esse deum , & negare praescium futurorum , apertissima insania est . they who make the starres the fates of men , are more tolerable then he , who taketh away the foreknowledge of things to come . for to confesse that there is a god , & to deny him to be foreknowing of things future , is a most open madnes . and againe in the same place . sed quoquomodo se habent tortuosissimae concertationes , & disputationes philosophorum ; nos ut confitemur summum , & verum deum , ita voluntatem , summamque potestatem ac praescientiam ejus confitemur . afterwards again . religiosus autē animus utrumque eligit , utrumque confitetur , & fide pietatis utrūque confirmat ; that is , both the liberty of the will , & gods prescience . quod verò cicero negat ordinem omnium causarum esse certissimum , & dei praescientiae notissimum , plus eum , quam stoici , detestamur . aut enim deum esse negat , &c. aut si esse confitetur deū , quem negat praescium futurorum , etiam sic dicit nihil aliud , quàm ille , dixit insipiens in corde suo , non est deus . qui enim non est praescius omnium futurorum , non est utique deus . to confesse that there is a god , and to deny his foreknowledge , is to say with the foole in his heart , that there is no god : for he , who doth not foreknow things to come , is not god. other testimonies you may see quoted in suarez lib. . de scientià futurorum contingentium absoluta . cap. . out of other places of austin , as also out of fulgentius , and anselme . but i may very well spare this labour of citing the ancients , seeing m. hord , or m. mason ( i know not well which ) tells us that the fathers did generally make sinne an object of gods prescience , and therefore they maintained , that there was prescience in god. as for the schoolemen they in their commentaries upon aquinas . sum. . p. q. . art. . and on lombard lib. . dist . . . doe generally resolve , nemine contradicente , ( that i know ) that gods foreknowledge of things to come , is a point certaine de fide . and amongst those that are called protestants , i know none that oppose it , save the socinians ; against whom , in this particular , you may read stagman photinianis : disp . . and johannes junius in refutat : praelect . fausti socini , cap. . . . . the arminians , however now some of them walke in the cloudes , and will not speake out , yet at first the ringleaders did not stick to professe , that election was upon foresight of perseverance in faith , and reprobation upon foreknowledge of perseverance in infidelity and impenitency . d. twisse tells us , that gods foreknowledge of things future , is a point assented unto by , and uncontroverted amongst all christians ; de scientia media , p. . extra controversiam est apud christianos omnes , futura omnia , quantumvis contingentia , deo not a fuisse , idque ab aeterno ; neque mirum , cum nihil positivum aut sit , aut futurum sit in rerum naturà , cujus productionem non operetur ipse deus , idque in genere causae efficientis , consèquentérque cujus productionem non ab aeterno decreverit , quá de re nulla fere inter christianos hodie , saltem eruditiores , viget controversia . and hereupon it is that he censureth the proofes brought by suarez for the confirmation of it , to be needlesse . pergit suarez in confirmatione ejus , de quo christianus nullus dubitat abidem . and againe in his book against m. cotton p. . he saith , that for men with cicero to deny , that god foreknowes things to come , is to turne atheist . but against this cloud of witnesses i foresee that you will take sanctuary in those two termes , formally and properly , though none save atheists , and socinians deny the prescience of god ; yet notwithstanding this , it is , say you , the constant assertion both of ancient and moderne divinity , that prescience or foreknowledge are not formally or properly in god. to make this good , you only quote austin in your margent and gregory , unto whose sayings alleadged by you , every schooleman almost , that dissenteth from the dominicans about the presence of things in eternity , gives an answer , of which if you be ignorant , you must needs be a very great stranger to schoole divinity . you tell us next , that the learned assertors of the protestant cause are at perfect agreement with their adversaries the schoolemen , and papists in this assertion , that prescience or foreknowledge are not properly , or formally in god. this is a thing which those , that dissent from you , would in all likelyhood question , and yet you bring not so much as one instance out of either protestant or papist to make it good . that there is such a peace and concurrence of judgement about this , between protestants and papists , i never read or heard of before . and if you can prove it by an induction , i will confesse my ignorance . if any such unwary passages , as you here speake of , have dropt from the pennes of either protestants or papists , i suppose they are to be qualified , and understood in the like manner , that suarez understands , and qualifieth the speech of those , who deny knowledge to be properly and formally in god. they take ( saith he ) knowledge as signifying a quality or habit produced by some power or knowledge , gained or gotten by way of discourse or inference , or including some such like imperfection . in like manner if any either protestants , or papists , have denyed foreknowledge to be properly and formally in god , they are to be understood concerning such a foreknowledge , as is found in men , in whom 't is cloathed with many imperfections , from which 't is abstracted , as it is ascribed unto god. but i shall take a more particular and distinct notice of these two termes formally and properly in reference unto the attribution of foreknowledge unto god. and first let us enquire whether foreknowledge can formally be ascribed unto god. the terme formally may be opposed unto either eminently , or extrinsecall denominations . first unto eminently . perfections are either secundum quid , in certo genere , after a sort , in such a kind , or else simply such . the former doe so essentially imply some imperfection , limitation , or composition , as that they cannot possibly be abstracted therefrom , and therefore are ascribed unto god only eminently or vertually . but now the latter doe include no imperfection , or repugnancy with , or opposition unto any greater , or equall perfection . and these perfections are ascribed unto god formally , as you may see proved by suarez met. disp : . sect. . num . . . de perfectionibus ergo simpliciter dicendum est , omnes esse in deo formaliter , quia in suo formali conceptu nullam imperfectionem , sed puram perfectionem involvunt , neque inter se repugnantiam includunt , unde sic illas habere , id est , formaliter , melius est , quam aliquà earum carere , & ideo de ratione entis summe perfecti in totâ latitudine entis est , ut has omnes perfectiones formaliter includat . adde in his perfectionibus non posse cogitari altiorem modum continendi illas , quam formaliter , quia intra suam formalem rationem , nec limitationem , nec imperfectionem includunt , neque altior gradus entis excogitari potest , quam ille , ad quem hae formales perfectiones pertinent , qualia sunt vivere , sapere & alia hujusmodi . now foreknowledge is to be ranked amongst the perfections of this latter sort ; because it may be sequestred or abstracted from all those imperfections , as it is found in men or angells . you think indeed that it will necessarily inferre mutability , but that is an imputation from which i will anon easily free it . besides , a perfection simply such , is defined by anselme in monolog . cap. . quae in unoquoque est melior ipsa quam non ipsa ; that is , as scotus expounds it in . dist . . q. . ad. . quolibet suo incompossibili . now the light of nature evidenceth that the knowledge of things to come is better , and a more noble attribution then any thing whatsoever is repugnant unto such foreknowledge , and therefore this foreknowledge ( in such an abstract notion as we speake of ) may formally be ascribed unto god. but now this i would have to be understood as suarez speakes of such kind of perfections in generall . and againe afterwards . they are not in god formally in such a sense , or after such a manner , as they are in the creatures , but they are in him formally , in a higher way and manner , which excludes all imperfections whatsoever of the creatures . secondly , formall attributions may be opposed unto extrinsecall denominations . now the word foreknowledge , signifieth something that agreeth unto god formally , and something that is ascribed unto him only by extrinsecall denomination . for the understanding of which we must observe , that it is one and the same undivided knowledge , by which god without any the least alteration , understands things whilest future , when present , when past , and this i affirme to be ascribed unto god formally , because 't is in him , and that by way of reall identity with his essence , and all his other attributes . but now this knowledge undergoes severall appellations , which are attributed unto it by extrinsecall denomination , from the various condition of the things known , so long as the things themselves are to come , it is called fore-knowledge , when they come , co-knowledge , after they are gone and past , after-knowledge : d. twisse against jackson pag. , . i deny not then , but that the formall denomination of foreknowledge is extrinsecall . gods knowledge is so denominated in regard of its pre-existence unto the thing known : but that which is affirmed of a thing only by way of extrinsecall denomination , may be ascribed thereunto properly , which brings me unto a second quaere . whether foreknowledge is , or may be ascribed unto god properly ? the learned assertors of the protestant cause , you say , are at perfect agreement with their adversaries the papists in this , that prescience , or foreknowledge , are not formally or properly in god. you will not deny d. twisse to be a learned protestant , and how he dissents from this assertion which you father upon all protestants , you may read in his book against doctor jackson p. . the question only was ( saith he ) whether foreknowledge might be properly attributed unto god , in respect of things to come : now i see no reason ( saith he ) but it may , as well as it is attributed unto man. amongst the papists suarez comes behind few moderne schoolemen , and whether he thinks foreknowledge not to be properly in god , let his own words informe you . lib. . de scientia futurorum absolutè cap. . in omni etiam proprietate certissimum est scientiam dei , sicut & deum ipsum , duratione antecedere omnium rerum creatarum existentiam . but suarez is not herein singular . for the schoolemen generally in their commentaries upon aquinas , and lombard in the places but now quoted , having propounded this question , an in deo sit scientia futurorum &c. resolve it affirmatively : and as at other times , so especially in determinations , and resolutions of questions , that rule hath place : analogum per se positum stat pro famosiori analogato ; if a word have two significations , one proper , another improper or metaphoricall , and it be put by it selfe without any thing to determine , or limit it unto the improper acception thereof , it must be taken properly . this to be the meaning of that rule scheibler instructed me , when i was a puny in philosophy . met. lib. . cap. . num . . respondeo , illam propositionem , analogum per se positum , hoc est , sine aliquo addito , stat pro famosiori , valere solum de analogo proportionis , hoc est , quod de uno praedicatur propriè , de alio impropriè , per similitudinem , vel metaphoram , id positum sine addito significat suum principale analogatum , veluti cum de risu loquor , intelligo eum de risu hominis , non de risu prati . austin in lib. . de civit. dei. cap. . censures the denyall of gods foreknowledge as a madnesse , as a blasphemous , and atheistical speech &c. and this he would never have done , if he had thought as you , that foreknowledge is not properly in god : for that which is ascribed unto god only improperly , metaphorically , & by an anthropopathy , as hands , eyes , eares , repentance , griefe , &c. may without madnes , blasphemy , or atheisme , be denyed of god in propriety of speech . how have the schoolemen toyl'd themselves , and puzled their readers , about the reconciliation of gods foreknowledge of future contingents , with the liberty of mans will , and the contingency of things ? this was a poynt that armachanus studied for twenty years space * . now had those men been so well read in ancient and moderne divinity as you , they would have eased themselves of this labour . for you assure us , that it is the constant assertion both of ancient and moderne divinity , that prescience or foreknowledge are not properly in god. that this was reputed in the daies of jeffery chawcer , a difficult , nice , and controverted matter , which no one but an austin or a bradwardine could throughly discusse , or bolt unto the branne , appears by the verses of the said chawcer , related by s r henry savill , in his epistle prefixed to bradwardine , which i shall here insert . but what that god afore wote , must needs bee , after the opinion of certain clerkis . witnesse of him that any clerke is , that in schoole is great altercation in this matter , and great disputation , and hath been of an hundred thousand men . but i ne cannot boult it to the bren , as can the holy doctor s. austin , or boece , or the bishop bradwardin . whether that gods worthy foreweting sraineth me needly to doe a thing , ( needly clepe i simple necessity ) or if the free choyce be granted me to doe the same thing , or doe it nought , though god forewot it or it was wrought . or if his weting straineth never a dele but by necessite conditionele . i will not have to done of such matere . had you lived in those times , you could easily have put an end to all this great altercation ; provided that they would have received that which you take here for a principle , that fore-knowledge is not properly in god. for if this be so , then all disputation concerning the reconciling of gods fore-knowledge with liberty and contingency is frivolous , and to no purpose . what anxious disputes have been amongst the schoolemen for many hundred yeares continuance touching the manner or the ground of gods foreknowing future contingents ? bonaventure maintained that god did foreknow future contingents by the idea's of them in his mind . aquinas made the ground of gods foreknowing them to be their presence or existence in eternity . scotus his opinion was , that god foreknows them by seeing the determination of his own will touching their coming to passe . other grounds of gods foreknowledge of future contingents are assigned by others , which you may find mentioned almost in every schooleman . bellarm. l. . de grat : & libero arbitrio , and before him occam and ariminensis were of an opinion , that the way , or manner of gods foreknowing future contingents , is a poynt that is incomprehensible , & unexpressible in this life . were you called to be an umpier between these great schoolemen in this thorny , and knotty question , you , instead of unloosing or untying this gordian knot , would like another alexander have cut it in pieces , and have told them that they disputed like a company of buzzards concerning the ground or manner of that which may in propriety of speech be denied of god. your opinion you see doth not so fully accord with ancient and moderne divinity , as you pretend , & how dissonant it is from the truth will soon be manifested , by bringing it unto the rule of theologicall truth , the scriptures , in which the infallible prediction of things to come , doe clearly and abundantly witnesse , that foreknowledge is properly in god : for prediction presupposeth prescience , it being utterly impossible to foretell infallibly what one doth not foreknow certainly . hereupon it was that tertullian said deum , quot fecit prophet as , tot habere testes praescientiae suae lib. . contra marcion . c. . that god hath so many witnesses of his prescience , as he hath made prophets . this infallible prediction of things to come is so proper & peculiar unto god , as that thereby he distinguisheth himselfe from all false gods. esay . , , . produce your cause , saith the lord ( unto the idolls of the gentiles ) bring forth your strong reasons saith the king of jacob ; let them bring forth & shew us what shall happen . let thē shew the former things what they he , that we may consider them , and know the latter end of them or declare us things for to ●ome : shew the things that are to come hereafter , that we may know that yee are gods. he that is god can shew the things that are to come hereafter , and therefore he foreknowes them ; for that cannot be foretold , which is not foreknown . and that without a metaphor , or any other trope . from scripture goe we to naturall reason , and that will prove , that foreknowledge agrees properly unto god. arguments of this sort may be drawn , first from the nature of foreknowledge . secondly from severall attributes of god. thirdly from his actuall providence or efficiency . first , from the nature of foreknowledge . foreknowledge is a knowledge of things before their existence . and in god there is a knowledge of things before their existence . thou understandest ( saith david ) my thoughts a farre off . psal . . . this argument you may find in d. twisse against jackson . p. . till things doe coexist with god , his knowledge of them , saith he , is foreknowledge of them , as well as ours . for it is before them , and only before them ; for it is neither with them , nor after them . not with them , for then they should coexist with god , and that from all eternity , which is most untrue ; for if they did coexist with god , then they did exist , and that from all eternity , which is most untrue . much lesse is it after them , for if so , then their coexistence with god were past : but we suppose it to be to come . and impossible it is that the same things should at once be both past , and also to come . you have it also in suarez in the place before quoted . in omni etiam proprietate certissimum est scientiam dei , sicut & deum ipsum duratione antecedere omnium rerum creat arum existentiam . it is most certain that the knowledge of god , as well as god himselfe , doth properly or in all propriety of speech antecede in duration the existence of all created things whatsoever , and therefore it is properly foreknowledge . unto suarez who is no enemy unto arminianisme , i shall adde d. jackson a professed arminian arguing after the like manner in his treatise of the divine essence and attributes sect. . cap. . p. . if god ( saith he ) as all grant , be before all worlds , his knowledge being coeternall to his being , must needs be before all worlds . and austin himselfe grants a scientia a science , or knowledge in god most infallible , of all things that have been , are , or shall be , before they are , were , or could be ; for they could not be coeternall to him , who is before all worlds , the beginning of the world it selfe , and of all things in it . now all knowledge of things not yet present , but to come , is foreknowledge : to determine or decree things future , is to predetermine or fore-decree them . and seeing god from eternity hath both known , and decreed the things that then were not , he is said ; to have foreknown and fore-decreed them . secondly , arguments proving foreknowledge to be properly in god may be taken from gods attributes ; from his infinite perfection , from his infinite happinesse , or blessednesse , from his unchangeablenesse . first , from his infinite perfection : he is of all beings the best , and most perfect , deus optimus maximus was a title that the ancient romans by the light of nature gave him . nothing then can so much as be imagined to be better then god. but 't is better to know things to come , then to be ignorant of them , and therefore we must either deny that there is a god , or else ascribe unto him the knowledge of things to come . this is doctor twisse his argument de scientiâ media pag. . verum , si deus is sit , quo nihil melius excogitari potest , & melius sit cognoscere futura , & quicquid co gnoscibile est , quam ignorare ; videtur hinc sequi , aut deum prorsus negandum esse , aut scientiam futurorum contingentium ei tribuendam . secondly , from his infinite blessednesse or happinesse , which is such as that he hath all things desireable . but if he should not have knowne things to come he should be without a perfection , desireable by every intelligent or rationall nature . this was bradwardines argument ; si deus quaedam vera nesciret , posset desiderare & velle scire illa ; omnis enim rationalis natura naturaliter scire desiderat , quare & cum per partem proximam habeat voluntatem universaliter efficacem , posset illa scire & non novitèr ; quia tunc non semper esset actualissimus , scientissimus , perfectissimus , beatissimus , & immutailis penitus , contra tertiam partem & sextam : necessario ergo aeternalitèr omnia vera novit . thirdly , from his unchangeablenesse , which is affirmable of all his other attributes , and consequently of his knowledge . but now his knowledge if it were not of things whilest they were to come , it would by actuall existence of them be enlarged , and so changed . this argument is urged by durand , cumel , rada , suarez , and others . god knowes thing whiles present , for otherwise he should be ignorant of that which men and angells know , therefore he knew them whiles future , otherwise by the presence of them , something de novo should accrue unto gods knowledge , which cannot be without a change . suarez also argueth to the same purpose . the last sort of arguments which i shall mention , are drawn from gods actuall providence or efficiency . god is the cause of all things , of him ( saith the apostle ) are all things , rom. . . now he is the cause of all things by his knowledge , and by his will. first by his knowledge , and that practicall , which is resembled unto that of an artificer , who hath a foreknowledge of what artificiall workes he resolves upon ; for he hath samplers and patterns of them in his mind . rada propounds this argument very briefely . secondly , the will of god is the cause of all things , as is demonstrated by bradwardine and by aquinas and such as comment upon him , in prim . part . q. . art. . now the will of god is unchangeable from within and irresistible from without , and therefore in it all things future may be certainly and infallibly foreknowne . bradwardine ( from esay . . . declaring the end from the beginning , and from ancient times the things that are not yet done , saying , my counsell shall stand ) inferres the infallibility of gods prediction from the firmenesse , immutability , and unresistiblenesse of his will. the prophet signifies , saith he , that he can therefore declare the things that are not done , because his counsell shall stand , and he will doe all his pleasure : quasi velit innuere , quod per hoc annuntiet , vei annuntiare possit ab exordio novissimum , quia omne suum consilium & volunt as immutabiliter stabit , & siet . de causa dei. lib. . cap. . pag. . this argument cumel inforceth by comparison with mans foreknowledge of things in their causes . a mathematician can foreknow an eclipse of the sunne or moone in its cause , and therefore much more can god foreknow all future contingents in the determination of his own will. as for the testimonies you bring in the margent , they and diverse others are alleadged generally by the dominicans , to prove the existence of things in eternity , and it is very strange unto me that you take no notice of the common answers that are usually given unto them . the place out of gregory is misquoted , but that might be an escape of the printer ; in my booke it is , moral . lib. . cap. . and a little after he gives the reason why prescience is not properly in god. praescire dicitur qui unamquamque rem , antequam veniat , videt : et id quod futurum est , priusquam praesens fiat , praevide● : deus ergo quomodo est praescius dum nulla nisi quae futura sunt , praesciantur ? et scim●● quia deo futurum nihil est , ante cujus oculos praeterita nulla sunt : praesentia non transeunt , futura non veni , uni : quippe quia omne quod nobis fuit & erit , in ejus prospectu praesto est : et omne quod praesensest , scire potest potius quam praescire . the ground upon which both austin and gregory deny foreknowledge to be in god is , because nothing is future but all things are present unto god. unto all these and diverse other testimonies which occurre in the dominicans , i shall rehearse the answers of severall men . first , rada , par. prim . controv . triges . art. . pag. . adomnes authoritaies unica solutione sit satis . dico enim quod non intelligunt sancti , omnia esse deo secundum rem praesentia sed secundum esse objectivum & cognitum : omnia enim in seipso videt & intu●tur . secondly , suarez gives the same answer , but he explaines himselfe more fully : the fathers ( saith he ) speake by way of exaggeration to declare the perfection and exactnesse of that knowledge which god hath of things to come , for he knowes them so distinctly , and accurately , with all their circumstances , as if they did exist actually present . this knowledge of them therefore is not so much abstractive as intuitive , not so much prescience as science . thirdly , d. twisse de scientia media pag. . gives the same answer that bradwardine did unto the like saying out of boetius and anselme above yeares agoe , to wit , that all things are present unto god in esse volito as decreed by him , sunt ei praesentia , id est per suam insuperabilem & immutabilem voluntatem , praesentialiter determinata , & decreta certitudinaliter ut fiant futura . and this you may see how he cleares both out of austin , and gregory . fourthly , becanus gives another answer which i take to be the more satisfying : and 't is , that the scope of both austin , and gregory is to shew , that there is not such a prescience or fore knowledge in god , as there is in us , viz imperfect , and conjecturall . &c. from your testimonies i come to the examination of your reasons . m r goodwin . nor is it any wonder at all , that there should be peace , and a concurrence of judgement about such a poynt as this , even between those who have many irons of co●●ention otherwise in the fire , considering how obvious and neere at hand the truth herein is . for . if foreknowledge were properly and formally in god , then might predestination , election , reprobation , and many other things , be properly and formally in him also ; in as much as these are in the letter and propriety of them , as competible unto him as foreknowledge . nor can there be any reason given for a difference . but unpossible it is , that there should be any plurality of things whatsoever , in their distinct and proper natures , and formalities , in god , the infinite simplicity of his nature and being , with open mouth gainsaying it : ieanes . your argument with open mouth gainsayeth that which no body will affirme , but is mute in the proofe of that which only will be called for , to wit , that whatsoever is properly and formally ascribed unto god , is really distinguished from gods essence , and his other attributes . if you think i doe you any wrong by this censure , reduce your argument unto categoricall syllogismes , and make the best of it you can . mr goodwin . secondly , if foreknowledge were properly or formally in god , there should be somewhat in him corruptible , or changeable . for that which is supposed to be such a foreknowledge in him to day , by the morrow , suppose the thing or event foreknown , should in the interim actually come to passe , must needs cease , and be changed , in as much as there can be no foreknowledge of things that are present , the adequate and appropriate object of this knowledge ( in the propriety of it ) being res futura , somewhat that is to come . ieanes . severall answers unto this trite and bafled argument you may read in schoolemen commenting in primam partem summae . q. . art. . i will not trouble you with the rehearsall of them , but shall only propound that which i take to be most plaine and obvious unto even an ordinary capacity . we must distinguish betwixt gods knowledge considered in it selfe , and the extrinsecall denominations thereof . gods knowledge in it selfe is not changed by any variation of its objects , which are one while future , and then present , and anon after past and gone , but 't is one and the same knowledge without any the least alteration ( ex parte dei cognoscentis ) by which he knowes things whiles future , when present , when past ; for he knowes and sees them in esse volito pro certo aut tali tempore , as decreed to existant such a time . and to know a thing as decreed to exist at such a time , is to know that it shall be future untill that time come ; that it shall be present as soone as that time comes , and as long as it lasts ; that it shall be past as soone as that time is gone and ceaseth to be : quare licet alitèr atque alitèr cognoscat res futuras & praesentes ex parte rerum cognitarum , non tamen aliter atque aliter ex parte cognoscentis . nam videre aliquid apud deum in esse volito pro certo tempore , est & videre illud futurum esse , donec tempus illud advenerit , & praesens esse cum primum advenerit , & praeteritum esse simulatque tempus illud elapsum fuerit . d. twisse de scientiâ mediâ . pag. . and againe , pag. . praesertim cum sub notione ista , esse voliti pro certo tempore , caeterae notiones quales sunt esse praesens , esse praeteritum , esse futurum , mirabiliter uniantur , & amicissime conspirent ; quippe cum esse volitum apud deum pro certo tempore sit & esse futurum , donec illud tempus advenerit ; & esse praesens simulatque advenerit & quamdin duraverit ; & denique esse praeteritum , quam primum tempus illud esse desierit . so then you see these various considerations of the objects of gods knowledge in regard of futurition , presence , preterition , are admirably united in esse volito pro certo tempore , and therefore can be no prejudice unto the immutability of his knowledge ; whence it is become a proverbe in schoole divinity , that god non aliter novit facta , quam stenda . but though gods knowledge be in it selfe immutable , notwithstanding the succession that is in the coexistence of objects with it , as a rock in a river , stands unmoveable , notwithstanding the succession in the waters that glide by it , yet this is no hinderance , but that there may be and is a change in the extrinsecall denominations of gods knowledge from the variation of the objects thereof ; so long as these objects are to come , gods knowledge of them is termed foreknowledge ; when they actually exist , then it looseth the denomination of foreknowledge , and may be called co-knowledge ; and so when they are past and cease to be , it may be called after-knowledge . now a change of these extrinsecall denominations doe not import any change in gods knowledge in it selfe , because as vasquez tells us , vera mutatio non accidit nisi per veram receptionem , aut amissionem formae realis in ipsa re existentis . a reall change is by a true and reall either receipt , or losse of a reall forme existing in a thing it selfe . mr goodwin . thirdly ( and lastly ) there is nothing in the creature univocally and formally the same with any thing which is in god. the reason is , because then there must either be somewhat finite in god , or somewhat infinite in the creature : both which are impossible . but if prescience or foreknowledge ( being properly and formally in the creature ) shall be properly and formally also in god , there should be somewhat in the creature univocally and formally the same , with somewhat which is in god. therefore certainly there is no foreknowledge , properly so called , in god. ieanes . the minor of this argument reduced into forme , which you place first , will be denied by the scotists ; the major which you put in the second place , will be denied generally by the thomists . as for the minor of this argument put in the first place , there is nothing in the creature univocally and formally the same with any thing which is in god. this the scotists deny , as you may see in scotus himselfe lib. . distinct . . q. . distinct . . q. . rada part . . controver . . faber faventinus philosoph . natural . theorem . . and they bring such subtill reasons as you will confesse , when you reade them , to be worthy of an answer . as for your reason , they are not within gun-shot of it . for these attributes which they affirme to be in the creature univocally the same with those in god , are to be understood quoad communes non proprias rationes , quoad conceptum convenientiae non discrepantiae , in such a notion and consideration as is abstracted from finite and infinite , and so more generall then either god or the creature . conceptus communis ( saith scotus ) est ex se formaliter neuter respectu eorum quibus est communis : but the objective conceipt of these attributes , which denominate god and the creature , is common unto god and the creature , and therefore formally neither finite nor infinite , but abstracting from both . but perhaps my dulnesse cannot pierce into the depth of this argument . you may doe well for my conviction to improve it unto the utmost , and yet , if i be not mistaken , the uttermost that you can prove thereby is , that which will not be denyed unto you by the scotists , to wit , that nothing , no not fns , of all predicates one of the most abstract and transcendentall , can be affirmed of god and the creature univocally , in regard of a physicall univocation . rada part . . controv. . art. . pag. . . and that these attributes which denominate god and the creature are predicated equivocally ; if we speake of a * physicall equivocation , it is manifest . first , because the objective conceipt of them , as denominating both god and the creature is one and the same , only by the abstraction of the understanding , and not physically or a parte rei . this you have yeelded unto by scotus in answer unto the objection of henricus , that primo diversa in nullo conveniunt , sed deus est primò diversus a quacunque creatura &c. unto this scotus answers lib. . distinct . . q. . deus & creatura non sunt primò diversa in conceptibus ; tamen sunt primò diversa in realitate , quia in nullà realitate conveniunt . et quomodo esse possit conceptus communis sine convenientiâ in re vel in realitate , in sequenti dicetur . deus & creatura ( saith rada a famous scotist ) sunt primò diversa subjectivè , quia scilicet in nulla realitate per differentias contrahibili conveniunt , sed non sunt primò diversa objectivè & quoad intellectum , sicut nec decem praedicamenta , quia ens de eis praedicatur in quid . part . . controver . . art. . pag. . secondly , physically and a parte rei , there is a greater distance between god and the creature , then there is between any creatures ; for 't is an infinite distance . this is all which is proved by that reason of bannes in . par . thom. q. . art. . that all created perfections in comparison of uncreated , are but painted and umbratick , the best of created beings in comparison of god are but shadowes and pictures , esay . . all nations before him are as nothing , and they are counted to him lesse then nothing . omnis perfectio creata comparatione ad increatam perfectionem , est quasi depicta & umbratica , ergo &c. the major of your syllogisme put into forme , and placed in the second place , to wit , ( if prescience or foreknowledge being properly and formally in the creature , should be properly and formally also in god , there should be somewhat in the creature univocally & formally the same with somewhat that is in god ) will generally be denied by thomists , who will acquaint you with a middle kind of predication , betwixt equivocall and univocall , to wit , analogicall , according unto which they affirme those attributes to be predicated , which denominate both god and the creature . in . part . thom. q. . art. . they instance in ens , which is properly and formally predicated of god and the creature , and yet neither univocally nor equivocally but analogically , analogià quae est per attributionem intrinsecam , and not only analogia proportionis , as laughter is affirmed of a man and a green or flourishing meadow ; nor yet only analogia attributionis quae fit per extrinsecam denominationem , as when health is predicated of a sensitive creature in the first place , as the subject in which it is seated , and of meats , drinkes , medicaments , urines , secondarily , in reference unto , and by extrinsecall denomination from that health which is in a sensitive creature , unto which they are referred either as causes or tokens of it : see suarez , scheibler , morisanus , logic : mexic . to make this matter more plaine , i shall distinguish of a twofold acception of univocall ; one logicall , the other metaphysicall . first logicall , in which 't is adequately opposed unto equivocall , and so every predicate is univocall , that is , not purely , & meerly equivocall , which imparts only its name , and not any common signification thereof . predicates thus univocall , are said to be logically univocall , because this kind of univocation is sufficient as to logicall ends and purposes , as for the framing a contradiction , and to be the middle terme in a demonstration . secondly , there is a metaphysicall acception of univocall , in which 't is inadequately opposed unto equivocall , that is , partly unto equivocall , and partly unto analogicall . an equivocall predicate only imparts its name , and not any common signification thereof . an analogicall predicate imparts both its name and signification unto the things of which it is predicated , but unequally , in regard of that inequality , which is of essentiall dependency , secundum prius & posterius , as they say ; so ens is predicated of substance , and accident ; analogically of substance in the first place , and primarily , as its principall analogate ; of accident in the second place , with attribution , order , or reference unto , and dependance upon substance . these things thus premised , i lay downe these two conclusions , against which whatsoever you object i shall be ready to answer . the first conclusion , diverse attributes , which denominate god , and the creature , are predicated of them univocally in a logicall acception of univocall , as it is adequately opposed unto equivocall ; that is , they are not predicated of god , and the creature , meerely and purely equivocally . for first , not only the bare words , but a common and abstracted signification of them is found both in god and the creature , i might instance in ens , substance , goodnesse , wisdome , justice , &c. secondly , because otherwise nothing can be known , or demonstrated of god by , or from the creatures , but still there would be the fallacy of equivocation , ex cognitione unius aequivocati nihil potest cognosci alterius : and this is as well against the philosopher , who proveth many things demonstratively of god ; as against the apostle rom. . . saying , the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearely seen , being understood by the things that are made , even his eternall power , and godhead , so that they are without excuse . this is a reason given by aquinas . p. . q. . art . . nomina quae dicuntur de deo & creaturis , non dicuntur purè aequivocè ut aliqui dixerunt . quia secundum hoc ex creaturis nil possit cognosci de deo , nec demonstrari , sed semper incideret fallacia aequivocationis , & hoc est tam contra philosophum . phys . . metaph. qui multa demonstrative de deo probat , quam etiam contra apostolum dicentem . roman . . invisibilia dei , per ea quae facta sunt , intellect a conspiciuntur . this is all that the scotists can prove by their arguments , which they bring to prove the univocation of ens , as predicated of god and the creature ; and this they fully and strongly prove . and indeed if the matter be well looked into , the contention here between the thomists and the scotists , is a meere strife of words , de modo loquendi . the second conclusion , no attribute whatsoever denominating god and the creature , is predicated of them univocally , as univocall is opposed unto analogicall : for those attibutes which doe agree unto god most properly , are predicated of god , & the creature unequally , in poynt of essential order ; of god primarily , & independently , of the creature secondarily , & dependently , with relation unto god. in god they are by his essence , in the creatures but by participation . this i might exemplify by instancing in that which is under debate , infallible knowledge of things to come , that are contingent , is affirmed of god chiefly , & in the first place ; of the creature only dependently upon , & derivedly frō god : whereupon an infallible , underived , & independent foreknowledge of future contingents is incommunicable unto any creature . iames . . you know not , saith iames , what shall be on the morrow . before i take my leave of this section , i shall desire you , that whereas i affirme , that what words are attributable unto god properly , dicuntur de deo prius quam de creaturis , you would be pleased to understand it in regard of the things , or perfections signified by those words , and not barely in regard of their imposition . this limitation aquinas puts unto the question . p. . q. . art . . nomina , quae proprie de deo praedicantur , quantum ad rem significatam per prius dicuntur de deo , quàm de creaturis , quia a deo hujusmodi perfectiones in creaturas manant ; sed quantum ad impositionem nominis per prius a nobis imponuntur creaturis , quas prius cognoscimus , unde & modum fignificandi habent . mr goodwin pag. , . cap. . sect. . if it be objected , that this argument lieth as strong against the propriety of knowledge , as of foreknowledge in god ; in as much as foreknowledge is every whit as properly and formally in the creature , as knowledge ; i answer true it is , there is no knowledge neither in god , according to the precise and formall notion of knowledge , or in such a sense , wherein it is found in men . and this the first and last of the three reasons mentioned doe infallibly demonstrate . knowledge in the creature is a principle or habit , really and essentially distinct from the subject , or soule , wherein it resideth : yea and is capable of augmentation and diminution therein , and of separation from its whereas that which is called knowledge in god , neither differs really or essentially from his nature , or from himselfe , but is really one and the same thing with him ( as will farther appeare in the following chapter ) nor is it either capable of growth , or of decay , or of separation . only in this respect , knowledge of the two , is more properly attributable unto god , then foreknowledge , viz. because foreknowledge in the proper notion , or formall conception of it , includes or supposeth a liablenesse to a change or expiration ( viz. upon the comming to passe of the thing foreknown ; which must of necessity come to passe in time ) whereas knowledge imports nothing , but what may be permanent and perpetuall , and so is ( of the two ) more appropriable unto him , who changeth not . ieanes . here you plainly flinch from that which is likely to be controverted between us : for you have not so much as the shadow of an argument to prove , that knowledge is not in god , according to the precise and formall notion of knowledge : but you spend a whole section in the proofe of that , wherein you are sure to meet with no adversary at all , viz. that there is no knowledge in god in such a sense , wherein it is found in men ; why sir , the concession of this will no waies advantage you , or prejudice us : 't is the first part of your disjunctive proposition that calls for proofe , in which , why you are so silent , i cannot guesse , unlesse it be , that you are conscious of the falsehood of it , & therefore dar'd not to propound it categorically , but only disjunctively ; & the truth of disjunctive propositions is salved , if but one part of thē be true . so thē perhaps you thought , how ever the world went you would be safe and secure , as having two strings unto your bow . i will say no more of this , but that it is very unlike m. goodwin , thus to decline the combate , and runne unto the maintenance of a fort , where you could not reasonably expect so much as one assaylant . if you be pleased to returne into the field againe , and come up roundly to a charge , i meane a proofe of that which you have not yet so much as offered , or pretended to prove , viz. that there is no knowledge in god according to the precise and formall notion of knowledge , i shall be willing and ready to encounter you , and i doe hope that by gods assistance i shall be able to stand the shock of all your argumentation . m r goodwin pag. , . cap. . sect. . it is the sence of one of the greatest patrons of the adverse cause , that the precept , or injunction of god , is not properly the will of god ; * because ( saith he ) he doth not hereby so much signify what himselfe willeth to be done , as what is our duty to doe . i confesse that no signification whatsoever , whether of what a man willeth , or decreeth to be done , or of what is the duty of another to doe , can properly be said to be the will of the signifier : but yet that will , wherewith , or out of which , god willeth or commandeth us to doe , that which is our duty to doe , is as properly his will , as that whereby he willeth , or decreeth things to be done . my will , or desire , that my child should obey me , or , that he should prosper in the world , is as properly my will , as that , whereby i will or purpose , to shew the respects of a father unto him in providing for him ; being as proper , naturall , and direct an act of that principle or faculty of willing within m● , whereby i will the latter , as that act it selfe of this faculty , wherein i will the latter , is . for the principle or faculty within me of willing , how numerous or different soever the acts of willing , which i exert by vertue of this faculty , may be , is but one and the same . and this faculty being naturall , there can be no such difference between the acts proceeding from it , which should make some to be more proper , and others lesse ; though some may be better , and others worse , but this difference can have no place in the acts of the will of god. therefore if the precept , or preceptive will of god , be not properly his will ; neither can any other will of his , or any other act of his will , be properly such . if so , then that will of god , or act of will in god , whereby he willeth or injoyneth faith and repentance , and consequently , salvation , unto all men , is as properly his will as that whereby he willeth the salvation of any man. therefore if there be any secret or unrevealed will in god , whereby he willeth the destruction of any man , at the same time when he willeth the salvation of all men , ( be it with what kind of will soever ) these two wills must needs enter-feare , and contradict the one the other . nor will that distinction of the late mentioned author salve a consistency between them , wherein he distinguisheth , between the decree of god , and the thing decreed by him ; affirming , that the thing which god decreeth , may be repugnant to , or inconsistent with , the thing which he commandeth ; though the decree it selfe cannot be repugnant to the command a . the vanity of this distinction cleerely appeareth upon this common ground , viz. that acts are differenced and distinguished by their objects . therefore if the object of gods decreeing will , or the thing decreed by him , be contrary to the thing preceptively willed , or commanded by him , unpossible it is but that the two acts of his will , by the one of which he is supposed to will the one , and by the other , the other , should digladiate , and one fight against the other . therefore certainly there is no such paire , or combination of wills in god , as the distinction of voluntas signi , and beneplaciti ( as applyed in the question in hand ) doth suppose . it is unpossible that i should inwardly and seriously will , or desire , the death of my child , and yet at the same time seriously also will and injoyne the physitian to doe the best to recover him . ieanes . d. twisse is not singular herein , diverse great schoolemen , aquinas , durand , cajetan , bannes , gregory de valentia , and many others , say the same of not only gods command , but all other signes of the will of his purpose or good pleasure . the words of some few of them , shall for the satisfaction of the reader be inserted in the margent ; and the rather , because you in the section of this chapter , tell us , that the schoolemen were the first coyners of this distinction of gods will in voluntatem signi , & voluntatem beneplaciti : and how their interpretation thereof , holds intelligence ( as you speake ) with that sense of d. twisse which you here impugne , the reader may see vindic. lib. . pag. , . some of them professe in terminis , that the will of signe or signification , is called the will of god only improperly , and metaphorically by way of similitude or proportion , and therefore the distribution of gods will into a will of signe and will of purpose or good pleasure is not reall , but only verball , divisio vocis ; from whom they doe not dissent , who say that 't is divisio analogi in analogata . for as scheibler a lutheran , and of your opinion for the maine in these controversies , observeth , that they are to be understood of such an analogy which is by extrinsecall reference and denomination . intelligunt enim eam analogiam , quae est per extrinsecam habitudinem & denominationem . voluntas enim signi vocatur voluntas extrinseca denominatione , in quantum scilicet significat beneplacitum divinum , quod absolute est voluntas dei , ad eum modum quo multa dicuntur sana , per habitudinem ad santitatem animalis , quae primo talis est : metaph. lib. . cap. . tit . . art . . punct . . n. . for the will of signe is called will by extrinsecall denomination , as it signifieth gods good pleasure or decree ( which absolutely is the will of god ) after the same manner that many things are said to be healthy or wholsome , in regard of reference unto the health of a sensitive creature , unto whom health is in the first place properly and intrinsecally attributed . unto these suffrages of the schoolemen , i shall adde reasons drawn from three attributes of gods will properly so called ; it is internall , eternall , irresistible , and gods precept or injunction is externall , temporary , and resistible . . gods will properly so called is internall in god , really undistinguished from his essence , whereas gods precepts or injunctions , are externall without him , really distinguished from him . . the proper will of god was from eternall , the commands of god are given in time . from the eternity of gods will , i shall also draw this following argument . the will of god properly so called is uncapable of interruption , reiteration , and multiplication , for in eternity there is a most absolute and perfect unity and indivisibility without any succession of parts , but now the commands of god may be very often reiterated and multiplied , precept upon precept , precept upon precept , line upon line , line upon line . esay . . oh jerusalem , jerusalem , how often would i have gathered thy children together . math. . . . the will of god properly so called is irresistible , who hath resisted his will. rom. . . whatsoever the lord pleased that did he in heaven and in earth , in the sea and all deepe places . psal . . . the counsell of the lord must stand and cannot be withstood . by all the powers of the world and darknesse my counsell ( saith the lord ) shall stand , and i will doe all my pleasure esay . . but now gods precepts and prohibitions are every day violated , broken and resisted by wicked men . unto these reasons i might adde your own confession , i confesse ( say you ) that no signification whatsoever , whether of what a man willeth or decreeth to be done , or of what is the duty of another to doe , can properly be said to be the will of the signifier . but now i subjoyne , gods precept or injunction is only a signe of his will , and therefore however it be usually termed in scripture the will of god mat. . . mat. . . rom. . . thess . . . it is to be understood only improperly and tropically ; and that first metaphorically , . metonymically . first metaphorically , and by an anthrop●pathy , when god commands a thing , he carryeth himselfe as men doe , when they purpose , will , desire , and determine that such a thing should come to passe ; for amongst men usually their commands are manifestations and declarations of their purposes and desires ; i say usually , because sometimes superiors injoyne some things to inferiors only for tryall , and , upon their readinesse to obey , recall and revoke such commands . how gods commandements and other signes of his will , are the will of god metaphorically , aquinas illustrates in the place but now quoted ; seeing passions are ascribed unto god only metaphorically , hence the signes of such passions in us , when ascribed unto god , are called by the names of the passions themselves . punishment is with us a signe of anger , and therefore gods punishments are termed his wrath or anger ; so our commands are signes usually of our wills , of our desires , and intentions , and therefore the commands of god are termed in scripture the will of god. but i think with d. ames , that the commandements of god are termed the will of god , not only metaphorically , but also metonymically , because they are signes of a proper will of god. media illa ( saith ames ) per quae voluntas ista r●●elatur , recte vocantur voluntas signi , non tantum metaphorice , quia solent inter homines indicare quid velint : sed etiam metonymice , quia sunt vel effecta , vel adjuncta , propriam dei voluntatem ex parte indicantia . medul . lib. . c. . . and this also is observed by d. twisse , in his consideration of the doctrine of the synod of dort and arles reduced to the practice , p. . now we say , even gods commandement notes the will of god also in proper speech , to wit , what shall be our duty to doe ; for undoubtedly whatsoever god commands us , it is his will in proper speech , that it shall be our duty to doe it . however then , it is the sence of d. twisse , that the commandement of god cannot properly be said to be his will , yet he doth not deny that it signifieth or betokeneth the will of god properly so called , in which regard it is termed the revealed will of god , because it revealeth gods will : all the question is , what will of god it revealeth or signifieth . d. twisse ( you see ) roundly expresseth himselfe , that it signifieth , or revealeth gods will of obligation , what he will oblige and bind men unto ; what he will have to be their duty : but it doth not at all signify the will of gods purpose concerning what shall come to passe actually ; it doth not signify gods will of operation or permission , i. e. it doth not reveale what good god hath decreed to worke , what evill he hath decreed to suffer or permit in all those to whom his commands are given ; briefly , it signifieth or revealeth mans duty , and gods will of obliging unto it . mic. . . he hath shewed thee o man what is good , and what doth the lord require of thee , but to doe justly , and to love mercy , and to walke humbly with thy god. obad. . . . it doth not reveale the event or issue of things what shall actually be , by gods working or permitting providence ; this you have asserted by durand an ancient schooleman , praeceptum ( saith he ) non semper indicat voluntatem praecipientis , qua praecipiens velit rem praeceptam fieri , sed illam qua praecipiens vult obligare illum , cui praecipit , ad faciendum quod praecipitur , & hoc & semper . and a little before in the same place , praeceptum non est directè & semper signum quod praecipiens velit rem praeceptam fieri , sed solum quod velit subditum obligare ad faciendum illud quod praecipitur , & hoc clarum est in praeceptis divinis , per quae deus vult simpliciter nos obligare , sed non vult simpliciter rem praeceptam fieri , alioquin semper fieret . lib. . dist . . qu. . gods command unto pharaoh , that he should let israel goe , signified only his duty , that he was bound to let israel goe , not the event , that he should actually consent unto their departure . gods command of cain , judas , &c. to believe , and repent , did not signify that god did will the actuall existence of their faith and repentance , but only that it was his purpose to bind them to faith and repentance as a duty . and thus you have a confirmation and cleere explication of d. twisse his meaning , against which your discourse in this section , if it were reduced unto syllogismes , would not conclude with the least shew of probability . m r goodwin . but yet that will wherewith , or out of which god willeth or commandeth us to doe that which is our duty to doe , is as properly his will , as that whereby he willeth or decreeth things to be done . ieanes . first , here you make to will and to command termes equivalent or synonimous ( as you doe afterwards to will and to injoyne ) which is very unreasonable , for 't is the very thing in question , and d. twisse affirmeth , that to command is to will only improperly , and therefore equivocally . for you then to use to will and command , as words of the same import and signification , before you have proved them to be so , serves for nothing but to breed confusion , distract the reader , and disturbe the course of disputation . secondly , i confesse that the will wherewith , or out of which god commandeth us to doe that which is our duty to doe , is as properly his will , as that , whereby he willeth or decreeth things to be done ; for they are one and the same will really , distinguished only ratione ratiocinat● , by their objects , in regard of our manner of conceiving . and if any one in imitation of your subtilty in the following part of this section , should object , that acts are differenced , and distinguished by their objects , therefore if the object of that will , wherewith , or out of which god commandeth us to doe that which is our duty to doe , be really distinguished from the object of that will , whereby he decreeth things to be done , unpossible it is , but that these two wills of his , should be also really distinguished , i shall for answer referre them unto ferrariensis upon aquinas contra gentes lib. . c. . adverte quod ex ista probatione ( viz. ) ( that actus secundum objecta distinguntur ) vult habere , s. tho. quod distinguibile proportionatum objecto est actus ; & ideo si plura objecta faciant aliquam pluralitatem , illa erit actuum pluralitas : non autem intendit , quod per quaecunque plura objecta plurificentur actus . unde sensus illius propositionis est , quod actus est id quod proprie & primo plurificatur , quando pluralitas objectorum aliquam pluralitatem inducit . the sence of this proposition , acts are differenced and distinguished by their objects , is , that if many , or different objects doe inferre any plurality or distinction , 't is only of acts ; not that every plurality , or distinction of objects doth alwaies argue a plurality or distinction of acts . . but thirdly , this concession will not in the least degree advantage you ; for the inference that you make afterwards , that if the precept of god be not properly his will , neither can any other will of his be properly such ; for no rationall and scholasticall divine will deny gods decree , of things to be done , to be properly his will ; and i have made it good , that gods commandement is not properly his will , and you bring nothing like an argument to prove the contrary : but in the next place , you illustrate this by a comparison from the acts of willing , proceeding from the principle , or faculty within man of willing , let us heare what you say . mr goodwin . mr will or desire that my child should obey me , or that he should prosper in the world , is as properly my will , as that , whereby i will or purpose to shew the respects of a father unto him in providing for him : being as proper , naturall , and direct an act of that principle or faculty of willing within me , whereby i will the latter , as that act it selfe of this faculty , wherein i will the latter , is . for the principle or faculty within me of willing , how numerous or different soever the acts of willing , which i exert by vertue of this faculty , may be , is but one and the same . and this faculty being naturall , there can be no such difference between the acts proceeding from it , which should make some to be more proper and others lesse , though some may be better , and others worse , but this difference can have no place in the acts of the will of god. ieanes . for answer , i shall distinguish betwixt the flicite acts of the will , which proceed from the will , as their only and immediate principle , and such acts of the will as are only imperate , that is , performed at the beck and command of the will , but proceeding immediately from other faculties v. g. the understanding , loco-motive faculty , the parts and members of the body , &c. as walking , speaking , writing , and the like . now i confesse there can be no such difference between the elicite acts of mens wills , which should make some to be more proper , and others lesse : but yet notwithstanding this i affirme , that the imperate acts of mens wills , such as their injunctions , and precepts , whether by tongue , penne , or otherwise ( to give an instance pertinent to the businesse in hand ) are not called properly acts of their wills ; and this i shall not dictate , but confirme by these three following arguments . first , every act of the will properly so called , is voluntary , intrinsecally , and of it selfe , but now these imperate acts of the will are voluntary only extrinsecally , by denomination from an act of the will moveing , stirring up , and applying the power or faculty from which they proceed unto operation . . those acts which proceed from other faculties , distinguished really from the will , are not properly acts of the will , or acts of willing ( as you phrase it ) but these imperate acts of the will proceed from other faculties really distinguished from the will , and therefore cannot properly be said to be acts of the will , and of these faculties too . . the acts of the will , are not properly objects of acts of the will. the act of willing is not properly a thing willed , a decree is not decreed . actus ( saith suarez ) qui per seipsum est intrinsece voluntarius , non comparatur ut proprium objectum , vel effectus ad illum actum , quo est voluntarius , quia est voluntarius seipso , & non est proprie objectum vel effectus sui ipsius : habet ergo aliud objectum in quod directe tendat , & est effectus potentiae , a qua elicitur , & solum per quandam virtualem reflectionem , quam in se includit , est voluntarius : unde dici solet volitus per modum actus , non per modum objecti . met. disp . . sect. . n. . but these imperate actions of the will are properly objects of the will , and things willed , and therefore cannot in strictnesse and propriety of speech be said to be acts of the will. m. goodwin . therefore if the precept or preceptive will of god be not properly his will , neither can any other will of his , or any other act of his will be properly such . ieanes . i have searched for the premises out of which you inferre this conclusion , and i must needs professe unto you , that i can find none : it is possible the fault may be in the dulnesse of my understanding , and you shall find me willing and ready to confesse as much , if you will put your argument into moode and figure for me , and conclude this proposition out of any thing you have delivered in the former part of this section . mr goodwin . if so , then that will of god , or act of will in god , whereby he willeth or injoyneth faith and repentance , and consequently salvation unto all men , is as properly his will , as that whereby he willeth the salvation of any man. ieanes . first , untill you can find a major and minor unto your former conclusion , this which is inferr'd therehence is presumed and not proved . . you here make willeth and injoyneth all one , concerning the unreasonablenesse of which , i have spoken already . . i wonder what you meane in talking of an act of will in god , whereby he injoyneth faith and repentance , the injunction or precept of faith and repentance , is an act without god , not in him , and belongs unto his will , not formally , but effectively . . your mentioning of an act of will in god , hath occasioned mee to thinke of some thing , which for clearing of mine own meaning , and avoyding of mistakes , i shall communicate unto the reader : and it is carefully to put a distinction betwixt these two expressions , to be properly the will of god , and to be properly an act of the will of god. that gods decrees are properly the will of god , may be demonstrated out of most schoolemen ; that they are properly acts of gods will i deny , and that for two reasons . . if gods decrees were properly acts of his will , then his will were properly a power , but his will is not properly a power , for will is ascribed unto god , not as a power distinct from the act , but as an act not elicite but subsisting : and here i shall give you the words and reasons of suarez , then whom there are few moderne schoolemen more rationall . he having proved that the will is not in god per modum potentiae secundum rem , sed per modum actus ultimi & puri , he propounds the doubt secundum rationem , & modum concipiendi nostrum , wherein heare his resolution . in hoc eodem modo loquendum est , quo de intellectu & scientià locuti sumus , quod scilicet ex parte rei conceptae , non potest concipi potentia volendi in deo , quia non potest concipi potentia agendi vel recipiendi ad intra . nec fingi potest quod sit potentia ad agendum & recipiendum , non secundum rem , sed secundum rationem ; quia loquendo ex parte rei conceptae involvitur repugnantia in his terminis ; nam agere secundum rationem , non est agere , sed fingere actionem . ex parte autem modi concipiendi nostri , concipimus in deo aliquid ad eum modum , quo in creaturis concipimus potentiam volendi , scilicet virtutem amandi se , ut sic , quam praescindimus ab actuali amore , sicut de actu primo & secundo in scientia diximus . but here i desire to be understood , as franciscus amicus explicates himselfe touching this particular curs . theol. tom. . disp . . sect. . dupliciter considerari potest potentia vitalis ; uno modo , ut dicit distinctionem ab actu ; secundo , ut importat positivam perfectionem percipiendi aut tendendi ad objectum ; primo modo involvit imperfectionem deo repugnantem ; secundo modo perfectionem deo convenientem . quare concedo in deo esse voluntatem , secundum positivum conceptum potentiae ; nego autem esse potentiam , secundum imperfectionem distinctionis ab actu secundo , quam potentia ut sic per se importat . the power of willing may be considered two manner of waies ; first , as it implyeth distinction from its act ; and so it involveth imperfection repugnant unto god , secondly , as it importeth a positive perfection of tendency towards its object or thing willed , and so it may be attributed unto god. . if gods decrees were properly acts of gods will , then they should be properly elicite acts , but they are not properly elicite acts , but subsisting . ●nunciantur fateor ( saith our author ) tanquam actus a deo eliciti , & sic dici possunt per anthropopathiam , quemadmodum & passiones humanae attribuuntur deo. at eruditi probe norunt omnia decreta dei esse unicum duntaxat actum volendi in deo , qui quidem actus volendi non differt realiter ab ipsa voluntate dei , quae quidem voluntas dei non differt realiter ab ipso deo , qui est actus simplicissimus . vind. lib. . p. . p. . but i returne from this digression unto m. goodwin . m. goodwin . therefore if there be any secret , or revealed will of god , whereby he willeth the destruction of any man , at the same time when he willeth the salvation of all men , ( be it with what kind of will soever ) these two wills must needs enterfeere and contradict one the other . ieanes . this you gather from what you have not at all proved , but only pretended to have proved , viz. that the precept or injunction of faith and repentance , is properly the will of god. and for the contrary i have brought undeniable proofes , and therefore though there be any secret or unrevealed will in god , whereby he willeth the destruction of any man , at the same time , when he willeth or enjoyneth his faith and repentance , those two wills doe not as you say enterfeere or contradict one the other . for unto contradiction it is required , that all the termes must be taken in the same sense and signification ; now this condition is not here observed : for that he willeth the destruction of any man , is with a will in proper speech , that he willeth the faith and repentance of all men , unto whom the gospell is preached , is with a will improperly so called , viz , his commandement . m r goodwin . nor will that distinction of the late mentioned author , salve a consistency between them , wherein he distinguisheth betwixt the decree of god , and the thing decreed by him ; affirming , that the thing which god decreeth may be repugnant to , or inconsistent with the thing that he commandeth , though the decree it selfe cannot be repugnant to the command . a ieanes this is not barely affirmed , but strongly proved by d. twisse , and of his proofes you take no notice , but only object against what he saith : this if it be a laudable , is a very easy , and compendious way of handling a controversy , for it would save a man the labour of that , which hath still been accounted the most difficult taske in polemicall writers , to wit , solution of arguments ; but i shall acquaint the reader with what you conceale , and i doe not doubt , but upon representation thereof , he will acquit the doctor , and his distinction , from that vanity which you lay to his charge . rem a deo decretam cum re a deo mandata , pugnare posse dicimus ; interea decretum dei cum mandato pugnare posse non dicimus ; uirumque demonstramus . rem a deo decretam cum re a deo mandata pugnare posse , sic oftendimus ; sacrificatio isaaci & non-sacrificatic isaici pugnant inter se , sunt enim termini contradicentes . at harum altera fuit a deo mandata abrahamo , uti docet scriptura , simulque eodem tempore non-sacrificatio fuit à deo decreta , ut colligitur ex eventu . nam deus eam efficaciter impedivit , ne fieret . quare res a deo mandata , pugnare potest cum re a deo decreta . rursus , dimissio populi israelitici ex aegypto , & non-dimissio pugnant inter se , sunt enim sibi invicem contradicentes : at altera , nempe dimissio , fuit a deo mandata pharaoni ; altera , puta non-dimissio , fuit a deo eodem tempore decreta . nam & mandavit pharaoni per mosem & aaronem ut populum dimitteret ; simul etiam significavit , se obduraturum cor pharaonis , ut non dimitteret ; ergo res a deo mandata , pugnare potest cum re à deo decreta . that things commanded and decreed by god , may be contradictory , the doctor proveth by undenyable instances . the sacrificing of isaack , and the not sacrificing of isaack , are termes contradictory ; but the sacrificing of isaack was the object of gods command to abraham . gen. . . the not sacrificing of isaack was the object of gods decree , as appears by the event . v. . . therefore the object of gods commandement , and the object of his decree , may be contradictory . againe , the letting of israell goe out of aegypt , and the not letting of israell goe out of aegypt are termes contradictory ; but the letting of israell goe was commanded unto pharaoh , his not letting of israell goe was decreed and determined by god. exod. . , . and . , . god told moses that he would harden pharaohs heart , that he should not let israell goe . therefore a thing commanded by god , and a thing decreed by god , may be contradictory . concerning the first of these instances , you say something pag. , . but there is nothing argumentative in what you say , but may receive an answer from your own rule of interpreting scripture . pag. . . . . in the next place the doctor proves , that the commandements and the decrees of god are not repugnant . nec tamen decretum pugnare cum mandato , sic probamus . mandato significat deus quid sit nostri officii , ut a nobis fieri debeat ; decretum vero divinum nihil aliud est , quam propositum divinum de aliquo , ut vel fiat , vel impediatur ne fiat , idque efficaciter . mandatum docet quid ipse probaturus sit , si modo ab homine fiat , quid improbaturus si non fiat : decretum statuit quid ipse facturus sit , aut impediturus , ne sit . ista autem non pugnant ; tui est officii ut hoc facias , sed non est mei propositi per gratiam efficere ut facias . pari ratione potest deus mandare alicui fidem , & resipiscentiam , & interea apud se statuere , quod non credat , aut resipiscat , negando scilicet gratiam efficacem , qua sola fieri potest ut credat aut resipiscat . god by his command signifieth , and sheweth what is our duty , what ought to be done , or left undone by us ; gods decree is nothing else , but his purpose that things shall come to passe , or not come to passe ; the command teacheth , what god will approve or disapprove ; his decree determineth , what he himselfe will doe or hinder , &c. now these are no waies repugnant . it is thy duty to doe this , but it is not gods purpose to give thee grace for the doing of it : thou art bound or obliged to doe this , but yet thou shalt never actually doe it : faith and repentance are thy duty , and yet thy faith and thy repentance shall never actually exist , or come to passe . by this that the doctor hath said it is plaine , that there is no opposition between gods command to all that heare the gospell , believe , and repent , and his purpose of denying faith and repentance unto many , nay most of them . and thus you see what the doctor hath to say for himselfe , let us next heare what you can say against him . mr goodwin . the vanity of this distinction cleerely appeareth upon this common ground , viz. that acts are differenced and distinguished by their objects , therefore if the object of gods decreeing will , or the thing decreed by him , be contrary unto the thing preceptively willed or commanded by him , impossible it is , but that the two acts of his will , by the one of which he is supposed to will the one , and by the other the other , should digladiate and one fight against the other . ieanes . first , here againe you perplexe the disputation with talking of two acts of gods will , but supposing that by one of them you meane gods decree which is in him , and by the other his commandement which is without him , performed usually by the ministry of the creature , and therefore not his will properly so called , i utterly deny the consequence of your argument , and how just and reasonable this my denyall thereof is , will appeare , if you please to reduce your enthymeme into a categoricall syllogisme , for then you will find the proofe of its consequence to depend on this , that whatsoever acts are differenced and distinguished by their objects , doe digladiate and one fight against the other ; and this is a proposition so grossely false , as that i am very confident you cannot back it with so much as one , either testimony or reason . that acts are differenced and distinguished by their objects , is a common and received rule ; but that all acts are opposite , whose objects are repugnant , is an assertion that as yet i never so much as read or heard of in any either philosopher or divine ; and 't is this alone will serve your turne to conclude a digladiation or repugnancy between the decree and the command of god from the opposition that d. twisse admitteth to be between the things decreed and the things commanded . . if we take opposition and repugnancy as the ramists , who divide it into disparation and contrariety , we may safely say , that gods decree and his commandement are things opposite , for they are disparate ; but this will no wise prejudice d. twisse , who speakes in the language of the followers of aristotle , neither will it any waies advantage you , for the opposition or repugnancy that is between things disparate is only as touching an essentiall predication one of another , we cannot say that grammar is logick , or that temperance in a man is fortitude , and so we cannot say that gods decree is his commandement , or his commandement is his decree : not of a denominative or concretive predication of the same subject : the same man may be valiant , and temperate , a grammarian and a logician . see scheibler top. cap. . n. . & cap. . n. . mr goodwin . it is impossible that i should inwardly and seriously will or desire the death of my child , and yet at the same time seriously also will and injoyne the physitian to doe his best to recover him . ieanes . if you would hereby insinuate , that we affirme , that god doth inwardly and seriously will or desire the death or damnation of his children , and yet at the same time also seriously injoyne his ministers , who are spirituall physitians , to doe their best to recover them out of the snare of the divell , you doe wonderfully misconceive and misreport our opinion ; for we say , that unto none hath he given power , right , or priviledge to be his sonnes , but unto such as believe on his name ; and all those who believe , he hath ordained unto eternall life , and will keepe by his power unto salvation ; but of this see our author , in the first book of this treatise . p. . . . what hath been said is sufficient to convince him , that will not wilfully and obstinately shut his eyes against the light , that the command of all who heare the gospell to believe and repent , and the purpose of god to deny faith and repentance unto many , are not contradictory . i shall , before i discharge my selfe of this section , evince as much briefly concerning this latter purpose , and that purpose or decree out of which the command proceedeth , and which is signified thereby . here we must premise , that the commandement of god doth signify a decree or decreeing will of god , though not such a decree or will as the arminians usually shape for themselves . . it signifieth the decree of god concerning the commandement it selfe , . concerning the thing commanded . first then , the command of god signifieth gods will or decree of the commandement it selfe , of the externall transient act of commanding . eph. . . god worketh all things after the counsell of his own will. gods commanding then of things in time , is a signe that from everlasting he did decree to command them . but secondly , it signifieth a will or decree of god also concerning the thing commanded , viz , as touching the obligation to it , not as touching the existence or non-existence of it , it signifieth , that god from everlasting did decree , that the thing commanded should be mans duty , should be a thing morally good , but it doth not signify or reveale , that the thing commanded should actually exist , and be performed by every one unto whom the command is propounded . indeed the obedience of the elect , for whose salvation only the commands of god are given , was both commanded and decreed , or determined by god ezek. . , . and hence we may inferre , that the command of faith , repentance , obedience , &c. all which god hath determined to be necessary unto salvation , doe imply , and reveale in a generall , and indefinite way , that god from eternity did purpose to worke faith , repentance , and obedience in those , whom he had designed to salvation . but this concession will not satisfy arminians , who will be contented with nothing , unlesse we will grant them , that god willeth and desireth the faith , repentance , obedience , and salvation of reprobates ; which we cannot doe , but withall we must renounce and disclaime gods omnipotency , and immutability . these things thus briefely premised , that gods purpose or decree of commanding faith , and repentance unto all that heare the gospel , and his purpose or decree to deny faith and repentance unto many , are not contradictory , is manifest : because gods purpose or decree of commanding faith and repentance , referres unto the thing commanded , faith and repentance , only as concerning the obligation to them , not as touching the existence of them ; now to decree and purpose , to bind and oblige all to faith and repentance , and to decree and purpose , that some yet shall never actually believe and repent , cannot be proved by any rules of logick to be contradictory . before i proceed unto the consideration of your next and last passage against d. twisse , i shall only represent unto you , that our author , whom you take to be one of the greatest patrons of that cause , which you account adverse , doth dislike the accommodation of that distinction of voluntas signi and beneplaciti , or a secret and revealed will , unto tim. . . ( the place which you have under debate , ) as well as you , though , i confesse , upon different grounds . in his booke against jackson pag. . he informeth us , that neither calvin embraceth it , nor beza , nor piscator , but all concurre upon that interpretation which austin gave many hundred years agoe . peter martyr proposeth it ( saith he ) amongst diverse others , but embraceth it not , neither doe i know any divine of ours that embraceth it . cajetan indeed embraceth it , and cornelius de lapide , and aquinas amongst other interpretations ; if you take ( saith he speaking to d. jackson ) a liberty to put upon us the opinions , and accommodations of distinctions used by papists , you may in the next place make doubt , whether we have not subscribed to the councell of trent . and againe in the next page . neither doe i like ( saith he ) cajetans interpretation after this manner , when he saith , est sermo de voluntate signi , qua deus proponit omnibus homimbus praecepta salutis , doctrinamque evangelii ; and that for two reasons : first , because god doth not propose his gospell to all : secondly , if god should propose the gospell to all , and bid all men to believe , this is no certaine signe that god will have them to believe ; like as it is no certain signe that god will give them grace to believe , without which they cannot believe ; for it is manifest that god doth not give the grace of faith and repentance unto all that heare the gospell , nor to a major part of them ; but it is a signe i confesse that god will have it our duty to believe , by commanding us to believe . the interpretation of this place , which d. twisse sticks to , is that of austin , that god will have some of all sorts or conditions to be saved , and he makes it good from the coherence , as here , so in his consideration of the doctrine of the synod of arles and dort &c. p. . and p. , , . he gives a full and satisfactory answer unto that which you call more then a topicke argument against this exposition , unto which why you doe not reply , i cannot but wonder , but perhaps you never read it ; and yet againe 't is very strange , that you , who have searched so narrowly and throughly into these controversies , as you professe , should be unread in all the workes of him , whom you confesse to be one of the greatest patrons of the adverse cause ( as you call it ) i will lay downe that which you call more then a topicke argument , and compare it with the objection of tilenus , and then put downe d. twisse his answer unto tilenus , and referre it unto the reader , whether it doe not fully satisfy , that which you suppose to be a demonstration . m. goodwin . pag. . if it may be said that god will have all men to be saved , because he will have some of all sorts to be saved , it may more properly & truly be said of him , that he will have all men to be destroyed ( at least in their sense , who hold an irreversible reprobation of persons personally considered from eternity ) because not simply some , but a very great part of all sorts of men now extant in the world , will in time perish , and that according to the decree or will of god , the tenour whereof is , that all persons dying in impenitency , and unbeleife shall perish : yet the scriptures doe no where say upon any such account as this , either in terminis , or in substance , that god will have all men to perish , and not to come to the knowledge of the truth which is somewhat more than a topicke argument , that god is not therefore said to will that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth , only because he will have some , some few of all sorts of men to be saved , and to come to this knowledge , but simply because his will is to have all men with out exception ( viz. as they are men , and whilst they are yet capable of repentance ) to be saved , and in order thereunto to come to the knowledge of the saving truth . ( i. e. ) the gospell . tilenvs . now if this new evangelist doe tell the infidell that the passages of scripture , which say that god would have all men to be saved , are to be understood of some of every nation , and condition , the infidell will reply that then the scripture ought with much more reason to say , that god would have all men to be damned ; because that in every nation there are farre more of these than of them , and how that in all reason the denomination should be taken from the greatest number . dr twisse upon the synod of arles &c. pag. , , . i deny that the scripture ought with much more reason , or with any reason to say , that god would have all men to be damned , although put the case that in every nation & condition there be more of these , than of them ; and his reason drawne from the denomination to be taken from the major part is nothing to the present purpose . for the question here about the interpretation of saint pauls phrase is only this , whether the word all be to be interpreted of all sorts , or of all and every one ; so that the rule of denomination taken from the major part is nothing pertinent to this , the question being only , whether genera singulorum , or singula generum be here meant , not whether some of all sorts , or all and every one of all sorts . which being resolved , and that hereby is meant , genera singulorum , it may be farther questioned , whether genera singulorum doe imply every particular of these kinds , or only some of them ? for it is well known , that the phrase is indifferent to the one as well as the other , and that genera singulorum , are equally preserved entire in some particulars , as in many , or most , or all . like as the species of the sunne is maintained exactly as well in that one sunne , which shines by day in the firmament , as if there were twenty sunnes . secondly , though the reason here given from the denomination to be taken from the greater part , were pertinent , yet were it nothing pertinent to the apostles purpose in this place , to say , that god would have all men to be damned ; for this were no agreeable reason to move them to pray for all , for kings , and all that are in authority . as if the apostle should say thus , i will have you to pray for all , for god will have all to be damned ; for saith austin , if gods church knew who were predestinated to be sent into eternall fire with the divell and his angells , they would no more pray for such , than they would pray for the divell himselfe . so that this author doth miserably overlash in this his subtilty , and betraies more nakednesse than any sober and wise infidell were like to doe . then againe , the instances of scripture are clearely against him . for when every foure-footed beast ( as the scripture speakes ) was seen by peter in a vision ; in all likelyhood they were not the most part of every kind , but the smallest rather of every kind : and accordingly this author might conclude , that considering denominations are taken from the major part , therefore it is rather to be said , that every foure-footed beast was not seen by peter , for certainly the major part of every kind was not ; yet in this sense to speake of it , in that case was nothing pertinent , but rather contrariant to that which followeth : rise peter , kill and eate .. in like sort seeing in all likelihood more people staid at home both in jerusalem , and in judea , then were they who went out to john , and according to this authors rule , it were more fit to say , all jerusalem and all judea staid at home , when john the baptist preached : yet was it nothing congruous , but contrariant rather to the evangelists scope to write so ; his purpose being to set downe of what estimation was the authority of iohn by the confluence of all people from all parts unto him & therefore when he writes that all judea , and all jerusalem went forth unto him , the meaning can be no more than this , namely , that from all parts of judea and of jerusalem some flocked unto him . ieanes . i come unto the third and last exception in your book against doctor twisse . pag. . mr goodwin . hanging upon the crosse he prayed for his enemies , and those that crucified him , that they might be forgiven . may it not as well be inferred from hence , that therefore all his enemies , and all such , who ( in any sense ) crucify him , shall be forgiven by god ; as it is argued from his praying for peter , that his faith might not faile , that the faith of no true believer shall faile . doctor twisses notion upon the case is not so authentique ; and though admitted , will not heale the difficulty : christ ( saith he ) prayed for his enemies , ex officio hominis privati , i. e. according to the duty of a private man , but for his elect , as mediator . this is said but not proved , nor indeed probable . for very unlikely it is , that christ being now in a full investiture of his great office of mediator , should wave his interest in heaven , by meanes hereof in his addressements unto god for men , and pray only in the capacity , and according to the interest and duty of a private man ; this would argue , that he prayed not for them with his whole heart , nor with an effectualnesse of desire to obtaine what he prayed for . but let it be granted , yet still it followes , that whatsoever christ prayed for , was not simply , or absolutely granted or done ; and if whatsoever christ prayed for , was absolutely granted , it is not materiall , as to matter of impetration , whether he prayed as mediator , or as a private man. but the intent of christs prayer for those that crucified him , was not that all their sinnes should be forgiven them , much lesse that simply and absolutely ( i. e. without any intervening of faith and repentance ) they should be forgiven ( which had been to pray for that which is expressely contrary unto the revealed will of god ) but that that particular sinne of their crucifying him shold be forgivem them i. e. should not be imputed unto them , by way of barre unto their repentance , either by any suddaine or speedy destruction ; or by delivering them up to such a spirit of obstinacy or obduration , under which men seldome or never repent . ieanes . this exposition of d. twisse proceeds upon supposition , ( not grant ) that christ prayed for all that had a hand in his crucifying ; and taking this supposition to be true , this following argument , for the proofe of this exposition , may easily be gathered out of d. twisse . if christ prayed for all that crucifyed him , then either according to the duty of a private person , or by vertue of his office , as he was mediator ; but he prayed not for all his persecutors by vertue of his office , as he was a mediatour : therefore if he prayed for them , it was only in answer of his duty , as he was made under the law , and a private person . the minor which is only likely to be questioned , is thus confirmed ; some that were guilty of his crucifying , were in all likelihood reprobates , as is not only confessed , but proved by arminius . oravit ( saith he ) pro iis qui crucifixerunt eum , pro inimicis suis , inter quos & non-electi fuerunt : pincipes enim saeculi crucifixerunt illum ; at plurimis illorum sapientia dei , & virtus quae est christus , non est revelata . the princes of the world crucified the lord of glory . cor. . . and unto most of them the wisdome and power of god , which is christ , is not revealed . now in ioh. . . where we have the modell , rule , or epitome of christs intercession , that is , of his praying as mediator , he disclaimes all prayer , and consequently mediation for reprobates . i pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me . where world is taken pro turbà reproborum &c. ( saith d. twisse ) for the rout or rabble of reprobates : and he proves it thus ; in his , mundus opponitur iis qui dantur christo a patre ; at dari a patre , significat statum electionis . ioh. . . significat enim statum bonum praecedaneum vocationi efficaci ; omne quod dat mihi pater , veniet ad me . venire autem ad christum , est credere in christum per vocationem efficacem . vind. l. . p. . pag. . the world in these words is opposed , unto them which are given unto christ by the father ; but to be given unto christ by the father , signifieth the state of election , for it signifieth a good and happy estate or condition , precedaneous unto effectuall vocation . ioh. . . all that the father giveth me shall come unto me ; but to come unto christ , is to believe in christ , by an effectuall vocation . thus you see , that notwithstanding your pleasure to say otherwise , it is not barely said but proved by him , that christ prayed not for all his crucifyers by vertue of his office as he was mediator . in the next place , that christ according to the duty of a private man , might pray for all that crucified him , even for those of them that were not elect , is rendred probable by two arguments in d. twisse . the first is , christs subjection unto the law. gal. . . he was made under the law : and therefore bound to fulfill all righteousnesse . math. . . and one branch of the law , as is evident , by christ his own glosse upon it , math. . is to love our enemies , to forgive private & personall wrongs , to pray for them which despitefully use us , and persecute us . this was a poynt that he pressed much upon his disciples in his life time , and it being a duty ( though of frequent use ) yet difficult and harsh unto flesh and bloud , it is not unlikely but that he might exemplify it by his own practice at his death . a second argument in d. twisse to prove that it is not improbable that christ as a private man , affectu humano , prayed on his crosse for all his crucifyers , even such of them as he knew , not to belong unto the election of grace , is drawn from comparison of such a prayer , with the like prayer , that christ made in his agony in the garden , o my father , if it be possible , let this cup passe from me . math. . . father , if thou be willing , remove this cup from me . luk. . . this bitter cup of his death and passion , he knew full well that he was to drinke up , as a mediator for his elect , both by his fathers decree , call , command , as also by his own voluntary undertaking ; for to this end and purpose he came into the world , and sanctified himselfe . ioh. . . and therefore though these words were part of a most solemne addressement unto god , yet were they not put up by him in the capacity , and according to the duty and interest of a mediator for his elect . twisse vindic. l. . p. . pag. . and this is enough to satisfy you , that you are out in passing your censure upon d. twisse his notion on this place , that it is said not proved , which i am perswaded you would have forborne , if you had so throughly perused him , as it was fit you should , before you had in publike thus censured him . let us see in the next place , with what strength of argument you oppose his exposition . m. goodwin . nor indeed is this probable , for very unlikely it is , that christ being now in a full investiture of his great office of mediator , should wave his interest in heaven , by meanes hereof , in his addressements unto god for men , and pray only in the capacity , and according to the interest , and duty of a private man , this would argue that he prayed not for them with his whole heart , nor with an effectuallnesse of desire to obtaine what he prayed for . ieanes . first , you cannot deny but that in these words of christ , father if it be possible , or if it be thy will , let this cup passe from me , christ prayed not as a mediator for his elect , for so he was ingaged to drinke off this cup ; but as a man naturally declining , and abhorring death , and the ignominy of the crosse , as they are in themselves evill : and yet all your arguments , mutatis mutandis , with due change may be applied unto this interpretation , as well as unto d. twisse his notion ( as you call it ) upon luke . . secondly , in answer unto your objections , we may make use of a distinction of prayer , brought by suarez in tertiam partem sum. aquin. q. . art. . prayer is nothing else but an unfolding of the will unto god. now in christs manhood there was a twofold will , one absolute and effectuall , another conditionall and uneffectuall , which may otherwise be termed , a velleity , a will of simple complacency , a will of a thing only secundum quid , in some particular respect , according to some particular consideration : of such a will of his we read . mar. . . he entred into an house , and would have no man know it , but he could not be hid . answerable unto these two acts of the will in christ , there may be attributed unto christ two sorts or kinds of prayer ; one proceeding from an absolute and effectuall will , and this was alwaies heard : the other from a conditionall and uneffectuall will , and this was not alwaies heard ; such was his prayer in his agony , let this cup passe from me : and of this sort or kind of prayer , is that passage , psal . . . in reference unto christ , understood , o my god , i cry in the day time , but thou hearest not , and in the night season and am not silent . now to apply this distinction , christ could not pray as a private man for those of his persecutors , for whom he did not pray as a mediator , if we speake of that kind of prayer , which cometh from an absolute and effectuall will , which is styled by gregory de valentia , voluntas rationis undequaque deliberatae , because it proceedeth upon regard had to all circumstances : and the reason is , because with this kind of prayer , he never prayed for any thing , but what he knew would be granted ; for he never absolutely and effectually willed any thing , but what was agreeable unto gods absolute will , the will of his decree or good pleasure , and this is all that your arguments can prove . but yet notwithstanding this , he might pray ( taking prayer for a representation of a conditionall or uneffectuall will ) for the pardon of even those of his persecutors , who he knew should be condemned , and for whom therefore he prayed not as mediator : or more plainly , he might expresse a velleity , a gracious , mercifull , and charitable desire , to have all his crucifyers pardoned , so as it were not contrary unto gods decree , unto which he did submit , and in which he did acquiesce , as he did in his prayer for the removall of his passion , not my will but thy will be done . an answer very like unto , if not coincident with this , may be easily gathered out of d. twisse ; and it is , that christ , as a private man , prayed for the pardon of all his persecutors , taking prayer for an expression of christs antecedent will , not as prayer is a representation of his consequent will. an antecedent will , as alvarez explaines it , is the willing of a thing considered absolutely , as it is in it selfe , abstracting from all other considerations of it : a consequent will , is the willing of a thing considered with all circumstances wherewith it is clothed . thus a merchant willeth the preservation of his wares with an antecedent will , as the preservation of his wares is considered in it selfe ; but he doth not will it with a consequent will , as it is considered with this circumstance , as 't is accompanied with hazard , and danger of his life . thus also a judge with an antecedent will , willes the life of a prisoner , because his life is in it selfe , a thing good and desireable : but he doth not will it with a consequent will , as he is guilty of murther , incest , or any the like capitall crime . now d. twisse , though he reject the application of this distinction to god , with whose simplicity and infinite knowledge severall successive considerations of one and the same thing are utterly incompetible , yet he denyeth not , but it may have place in the manhood of christ . ratione diversarum considerationum non nego ( saith he ) distinctionem istam competere posse in hominem ; quippe cui variae considerationes occurrere possunt invicem succedentes : sic christus naturali sui conservandi desiderio ferebatur , cum a patre peteret , ut calix transiret ; at consideratâ voluntate & decreto patris de calice isto ad bibendum ipsi propinato , eidem se submittere consultum duxit . this distinction in regard of diverse considerations of one and the same thing , may be ascribed unto man , in whom are found severall considerations of the same thing succeeding one another : so christ as man , out of a naturall desire of selfe-preservation , prayed that the cup of his passion might passe from him ; but the will or decree , the command of his father , his owne office , and mans salvation being considered , he submitted himselfe to the drinking up of this cup , even to the very dreggs ; neverthelesse not my will but thy will be done . luk. . . if this cup may not passe away from me except i drinke it , thy will be done . mat. . . he did not will his passion with an antecedent will , but he willed it ( you see ) with a consequent will. joh. . . and so he prayed against it , as a prayer is a proposall of an antecedent , not consequent will. now that doctor twisse resembles this prayer of christ , for the forgivenesse of all his crucifyers , unto christs deprecation of his death and passion , and makes it to be as that , an expression only of an antecedent will , a desire of their pardon , considered absolutely in it selfe , abstracting from gods decree unto the contrary , i shall evidence by giving you d. twisse his own words . vind. lib. . p. . pag. . non dicit molinaeus istam voluntatem christi hominis , secundum quam oravit pro crucifigentibus ipsum , contrariam fuisse voluntati divinae ; potuit enim fieri cum submissione voluntati dei tacite factâ , licet non expressà , ad formulam precationis illius : pater transeat a me calix iste ; sed non mea voluntas fiat , sedtua . and againe afterwards in the same page . annon homini sanctissimo convenit , privatam offensam remittere , & palam protestari , se ( nisi deus aliter statuisset ) percupere ut ipsis ignosceret ; de quibus tamen deus aliter forsitan constituerit , quod & ipsi forsitan innotescit ? annon petiit salvator , & ardenter obsecravit , ut si possibile esset , calix transiret , cum tamen deum aliter constituisse , ne scilicet eum transiret calix , ipsi satis constaret ? &c. denique , christum illis bene voluisse , ut homo erat , quos antecedaneo decreto ab omnis boni spe ac possessione absolute exclusit deus ; hoc enim addendum fuit ( licet illud fraudulenter nimiùm dissimulet corvinus ) etiam haec sententia quid horrendi , quaeso te inculcat ? praesertim cum non sic voluisse dicamus , consideratâ istâ , de eorum a salute exclusione , voluntate divinâ ; sed duntaxat , si per voluntatem dei aliter constitutum non fuisset , & si penes ipsum esset , ut eligeret , utrum in persecutores ipsius vindictam exerceret , aut suspenderet ; pro eâ quam ut homo in omnes ( etiam in injuriis remittendis ) charitatem exercere debuit , vindictam suspensam mallet quam exercitam . and this in generall unto all your arguments , i shall say something to each of them apart . mr goodwin . for very unlikely it is , that christ being now in a full investiture of his great office of mediator , should wave his interest in heaven , by means hereof in his addressements unto god for men , and pray only in the capacity and according to the interest and duty of a private man. ieanes . vnlesse variation of phrases be argumentative , here is nothing but a begging of the question , only it is in state and good language . mr goodwin this would argue that he prayed not for them with his whole heart . ieanes . if we understand prayer in the sense but now mentioned , what absurdity is it to say , that christ , as a private man , prayed for the forgivenesse of all his persecutors with his whole heart , that is , as intensely , earnestly , vehemently , and zealously as he could , in the utmost degree possible to an humane nature . in luk. . . 't is said , that christ prayed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more earnestly , and his sweat was as it were great drops of bloud falling downe to the ground . that this prayer was with the whole heart of christ , you will not deny , and yet the former part of this prayer ( if thou be willing remove this cup from me ) was not the prayer of christ as mediator , but only an expression of an antecedent or conditionall will and desire , like unto this his prayer upon the crosse for the justification of all his persecutors . there is nothing considerable which can be objected against this , but that hereupon it would follow , that seeing prayer is a representation of the will before god , that therefore in christ there are two contrary wills , if he prayed for the pardon of all his persecutors as a private man , and did not pray for it , but rather against it , as a mediator . but this receives a very easy solution . to will or not to will , or nill one and the same object , are not contrary , unlesse it be in respect of the same circumstances or considerations . for christ as a private man , out of humane pitty to wish and desire the justification of all his crucifiers , as a thing good and desireable , if god had not decreed otherwise ; and not to will , but rather nill the justification of some of them , upon consideration that they are not given unto him by the father , but excluded from salvation by the will of his decree or purpose ; these indeed are diverse , but not repugnant acts of the will , because they proceed upon generall considerations , and therefore though the object be one materially , yet 't is formally diversified : thus between christs desire of declining his death , and his willing acceptance thereof , there was a diversity , but no contrariety , because they were not in respect of the same circumstances ; he desired to decline it , as it was in it selfe evill , and contrary to nature ; but as the meanes of mans salvation , he joyfully embraced it . to cleare this farther , i shall propound a distinction of contraries out of rada . part. . controv. . art. . contraria sunt in duplici differentiâ , alia absoluta , quae a quibuscunque causis causentur contraria sunt ; ut calor & frigns , quae non dicunt essentialem ordinem , & dependentiam ad aliquid extrinsecum , exceptâ dependentiâ ad causam : alia sunt contraria , quae & dicunt ordinem , & dependentiam essentialem , non solum ad suas causas , sed ad alia extrinseca , & objecta ; cujusmodi sunt scientia & ignorantia , velle & nolle , gaudium & tristitia ; quocirca non erunt contraria nisi ad idem formale objectum comparentur . mr goodwin . this would argue that he did not pray for them with an effectualnesse of desire to obtaine what he prayed for . ieanes . this only prooves , what will easily be granted , that christ prayed not for all his persecutors , with a prayer proceeding from an absolute and effectuall will. but there is one thing which i shall not dissemble , but freely acquaint the reader with ; and it is , that many great scholers both papists and protestants doe deny , that the proposall , expression , or representation of a conditionll and uneffectuall will or desire , is properly a prayer : i shall alleadge but two ; the first shall be a papist , to wit , becanus sum. theol. tom. . cap. . q. . licet in christo ( saith he ) distingui debeat duplex voluntas ; una efficax , altera inefficax : non tamen distingui debet duplex oratio , una procedens ex efficaci voluntate , altera ex inefficaci . nam oratio si vere oratio est , semper procedit ex absoluta & efficaci voluntate orantis , nunquam ex inefficaci . qui enim petit aliquid fieri , efficaciter illud desiderat , & ideo adhibet orationem , tanquam medium quoddam ad obtinendum id , quod petit ; hinc solet dici , orationem natura sua utilem esse ad impetrandum . unde sic concludo : qui vult aliquid voluntate inefficaci nullum medium adhibet ad illud obtinendum ; quia si adhiberet aliquod medium , jam vellet illud voluntate efficaci : at qui orat , adhibet aliquod medium ad obtinendum , nempe ipsam orationem : ergo qui orat , non vult voluntate inefficaci , sed tantum efficaci . although in christ there ought to be distinguished a two-fold will , one effectuall , another uneffectuall ; yet notwithstanding , prayer ought not in the like manner to be distinguished : for there are not two sorts or kinds of prayer , one proceeding from an effectuall , the other from an uneffectuall will ; for prayer , if it be truly prayer , alwaies proceedeth from an absolute and effectuall , and never from an uneffectuall will of the party praying : for he that petitioneth for the doing of any thing , doth effectually desire it , and therefore useth prayer , as a meanes for the obtaining of that which he requests : hence it is wont to be said , that prayer is in its own nature usefull or profitable for obtaining or procuring . whence i conclude thus ; he who willeth any thing with an uneffectuall will , applyeth or useth no meanes for the procurement thereof ; because if he should make use of any meanes to procure it , he should will it with an effectuall will : but he who prayeth , makes use of a meanes for the obtaining of what he praye's for , to wit , prayer it selfe : therefore he who prayeth , willeth that he prayes for , only with an effectuall , and not with an uneffectuall will. he goes on in the confirmation of this opinion . haec sententia est probabilior : pro quâ nota , aliud esse orare ; aliud , simplex seu inefficax desiderium proponere : quod facile in nobis ostendi & explicari potest . nam nostra oratio debet esse conjuncta cum certâ spe seu fiduciâ consequendi id quod petimus . iacobi . . postulet autem in fide , nihil haesitans . et math. . . omnia quaecunque petieritis in oratione credentes , accipietis . quando autem proponimus seu manifestamus alteri simplex seu inefficax desiderium nostrum , non facimus id cum certâ spe , seu fiducia consequendi illud , sed potius cum contrario affectu : ut si dicam , o mihi praeteritos referat si jupiter annos . this opinion is the more probable , for the opening of which we must marke , that it is one thing to pray , another thing to propound a simple or uneffectuall desire ; which may easily be shewen and explained in our selves ; for our prayer ought to be conjoyned with a certain hope or assurance of obtaining that which wee pray for . iam. . . let him aske in faith nothing wavering or doubting . math. . . and all things whatsoever ye shall aske in prayer believing , ye shall receive . but when we propound or manifest a bare , simple , uneffectuall desire , we doe not doe it with a certain confidence of obtaining what is so desired , but rather with assurance of the contrary . a seond testimony shall be taken out of doctor ames , an acute and learned protestant . coron . art . . c. . juxta sententiam arminii &c. nulla propria est oratio , quae non sit absoluta : quae etiam sententia non est temerè damnanda , cum inniti videatur rationibus non contemnendis ; praesertim illà , quae deducitur ab orationis natura : oratio enim est submissa repraesentatio voluntatis nostrae apud deum ut ab ipso perficiatur . explicatio velleitatis , quâ quid vellemus , si aliud non obsisteret , non est oratio proprie dicta . jam vero nihil volumus proprie , quod non absolute volumus ; atque adeo nil petimus quod non absolute petimus , quamvis in dispositione precantium conditionis ratio virtualiter saepe contineatur . petimus quidem nonnunquam , ut unum fiat si alterum contingat ; cujus quidem consequentis rei futuritio ut conditionata sit rogamus : sed ipsa tamen petitio est absoluta , quoniam absolute petimus , ut posito uno , ponatur & alterum . according to the opinion of arminius , there is no proper prayer , but what is absolute ; which opinion is not rashly to be condemned ; seeing it seems to be grounded upon considerable reasons , especially that which is drawn from the nature of prayer : for prayer is a submisse and lowly representation of our wills before god , to the end , it may be performed by him . the unfolding of a velleity , whereby we would will a thing if something did not hinder , is not prayer properly so called : but now we will nothing properly , which we doe not absolutely will ; and therefore we pray for nothing properly , which we doe not absolutely petition for , although the nature of a condition be often virtually contained in the disposition of the parties praying , who may be ready to submit their wills unto gods. indeed we sometimes pray that one thing may be done , if another thing come to passe ; and here we pray , that the futurition of the following thing be conditionall , but the prayer it selfe is absolute , because we pray absolutely that one thing doe exist upon the positure or existence of another . if this which these men say be true , then christ prayed for the justification of all his crucifiers , as a private man , only improperly , and not in the proper and strict acception of prayer ; for which improper notion of the word , we have warrant from scripture , when christ said , father , if it be possible , let this cup passe from me , non oravit ( saith becanus ) sed simplex naturae desiderium proposuit : he did not pray but propound the simple , bare , and naked desire of his nature : but though this his expression of his naturall desire and love of life , be not a prayer in regard of either a criticall or phylosophicall use of the word , yet you see , t is agreeable enough unto the language of the holy ghost in scripture , to inlarge the signification of the word so farre , as to apply it thereunto : for mathew saies expresly that he prayed . math. . , . but here for mine owne part , i must freely professe that i better like aquinas his interpretation of the place ; that christ prayed not for all his crucifyers , but only for those of them , that were predestinate unto the obtaining of eternall life , by and through him . and of this prayer what a fruitfull and plentifull harvest he reaped , you may read in the , , and . chapters of the history of the acts of the apostles . there you shall read , that the lord daily added to the church such as should be saved ; at one time three thousand , and another time five thousand ; of whom a great and considerable number denyed the holy one and the just , and desired a murtherer to be granted to them , and crucified and killed the prince of life . acts . . acts . , . rivet on psal . . quotes a testimony of austin favouring this glosse : videbat quosdam suos , inter multos alienos : illis jam petebat veniam , a quibus accipiebat injuriam . in making good this to be the sense and meaning of the place , i shall proceed by degrees : proving first , that it cannot be gathered out of the text , that christ prayed universally for all that crucified him . secondly , that the contrary may be cleared from the text , both considered in it selfe , and compared with other places of scripture , as also by reason . thirdly , that those of his persecutors for whom he prayed were such as belonged unto the election of grace . first , all the logick in the world , though racked never so much , cannot inferre out of the text , that christ prayed universally for the pardon of all his crucifyers : for out of an indefinite terme , a universall cannot be concluded , saith our author , in defence of moulin his denyall that christ prayed for all without exception . vindic. l. . part . . digres . . p. . secondly , that christ prayed not for all his crucifiers without exception , may be cleared from the text , both considered in it selfe , and compared with other places of scripture , as also by reason . first , from the text considered in it selfe ; father forgive them , for they know not what they doe : here moulin , from the reason adjoyned to the petition , concludes , that he prayed not for all that had a hand in crucifying him , but only for those who did it out of ignorance ; and in all probability some of them , especially some of the rulers , did it out of pure malice . and whereas corvinus objecteth out of acts . . against moulin ; that even the rulers did it through ignorance : doctor twisse upbraideth him with his unskilfullnesse in framing consequences , and making an indefinite proposition equivalent unto an universall . it doth not follow , ( saith he ) the rulers did this through ignorance , therefore all the rulers did it through ignorance . that some did , is certain from that place ; and so it is , that some of them were converted , and obedient to the faith act. . . besides he addes , that the rulers , in all likelyhood , did it out of affected ignorance , resisting the evidence of the holy ghost , speaking in , and by christ , and bearing witnesse to the divine authority of his doctrine by miracles : whereas 't is possible that christ might pray for the executioners , that assisted and acted in his crucifying , perhaps not out of malice , but meerely in the simplicity of their hearts , in obedience to their superiours , not knowing any thing . tum vero ad ignorantiam istam quod attinet , quam populo iudaico , & primoribus populi vitio vertit apostolus ; quid obstat , quo minus affectata fuerit in multis , ( resistendo scilicet evidentiae spiritus sancti per christum loquentis , & per miracula doctrinae ipsius testimonium ferentis ) praesertim in primoribus . qui vero ipsum in crucem egerunt , ( pro quibus etiam oravit ) erant illi ministri , & superiorum mandatis ex officio inserviebant : poterat ergo christus orasse pro iis , qui non malitia pulsi , sed cordis simplicitate in superiorum obsequium ducti christum in crucem sustulerunt . he also addeth , that he prayed only for them that were present at his death ; and 't is probable that the rulers , at least such of them as were not afterwards converted , were not present at his death . esto vero , non fuerint conversi , sed & nihilo minus probabile est , primores istos non adstitisse presentes christo , qui crucifixionem ipsius promoverent , pro quibus tamen & solis oravit christus in cruce . secondly , that christ prayed not for all and every one of his crucifyers , d. ames confirmeth , from comparison of this text with other places of scripture . coron . art. . c. . art. . c. . amongst these his enemies there might be some that had committed that great and unpardonable sinne against the holy ghost math. . , , . there were some , by the confession of arminius himselfe , that were finally impenitent ; and finall impenitency in generall , and the sinne against the holy ghost , which formally includes finall impenitency , are sinnes unto death , for the pardon of which , if knowne , prayer is not lawfull . iohn . . and therefore ( saith austin ) if gods church knew , who were predestinated to be sent into eternall fire , with the divell , and his angells , they would no more pray for such then they would pray for the divell himselfe . now christ knew who had committed the sinne against the holy ghost , and who would be finally impenitent ; for he himselfe knew full well what was in man. ioh. . . yea he knew from the begining who they were that believed not . ioh. . . see the learned and reverend m. owen in his treatise of universall redemption . p. . . thirdly , that christ prayed not for all his crucifyers , may be confirmed by an argument shaped in imitation of that , which doctor twisse urgeth against a common and generall intercession , which corvinus ascribeth unto christ . if christ prayed , that all who crucified him should be forgiven , then it was either that they should be forgiven absolutely or conditionally ; not absolutely , for then all of them were pardoned ; if conditionally upon condition , then this condition was either on gods part , or else to be performed on his crucifyers part : it could not be on gods part , modo scilicet ipsi visum fuerit , for then all of them should be pardoned according to your opinion ; for you hold , that god truly and unfainedly desires the salvation , and justification of all and every one of the sonnes of men : if you say that 't is a condition on the part of his crucifyers , why this condition can be nothing else but faith and repentance ; and then i demand , whether he prayed for their faith and repentance or no ? if you answer , that he did not pray for the faith and repentance of all and every one of them , then say i , neither did he pray for their pardon ; for he that truly and sincerely prayeth for any thing , prayeth also by just & undeniable consequence for all the necessary antecedents and consequents , causes and meanes , fruits and effects thereof : if you hold , that he prayed for the faith and repentance of all and every one of his crucifyers , then the argument may be renewed as in the begining ; for i aske you againe , whether he prayed for their faith and repentance absolutely or conditionally ; if absolutely , then all and every one of them did believe and repent , which the remonstrants themselves deny : if conditionally , then this condition is either on gods part , or else on the part of the crucifyers of christ ; if upon condition on the part of god , it can be nothing but this , if he will or please , and then all of them should believe and repent , for ( as arminians glosse that text tim. . ) god will have not only all sorts and kinds of men , but also all and every individuall man to be saved , and to come to the knowledge of the truth : if it be a condition on the part of those who crucified him , then pray doe you assigne that condition , and either i shall drive you upon the same rock of absurdity , upon which doctor twisse forceth corvinus , to wit , that christ prayed for his crucifiers , that they should believe and repent , upon condition that they doe believe and repent ; or else i shall renew the argument , so as that a progresse from one condition to another , and that without end , shall be unavoydable . lastly , that he prayed only for those of his crucifiers , who belonged to the election of grace , is evident from what hath been already said out of d. twisse upon ioh. . . for thence i have inferr'd , that he prayed only for his elect as mediator , that chapter being the platforme of christs intercession , as mediator for his church : and you affirme it to be improbable , that christ prayed under the notion and capacity of a private man , for any for whom he did not pray as mediator . but now in the last place , let us heare how you expound this prayer of christ . mr goodwin . bvt the intent of christs prayer for those that crucifyed him , was not that all their sinnes should be forgiven them , much lesse , that simply and absolutely , that is , without any intervening of faith and repentance , they should be forgiven ; ( which had been to pray for that which is expresly contrary to the revealed will of god ) but that that particular sinne of their crucifying him should be forgiven them , i. e. should not be imputed unto them by way of barre unto their repentance , either by any suddaine or speedy destruction , or by delivering them up to such a spirit of obstinacy or obduration , under which men seldome or never repent . ieanes first , i say of this your comment , as you did of d. twisse his notion upon the place , this is said but not proved , nor indeed probable , because first , scripture is a stranger to this acception of remission . secondly , 't is very irrationall to take remission in this sense , which by your doctrine may be consistent with its contrary : to wit condemnation . though this particular sinne of their crucifying him , were not imputed to them by way of barre unto their repentance , either by any sudden or speedy destruction , or by delivering them up to such a spirit of obstinacy or obduration , under which men seldome or never repent . yet according unto what you teach of grace , and ascribe unto the power of mans will , they might notwithstanding all this not believe and repent , but resist the grace of god , and dye in finall unbeliefe and impenitency , even for this sinne , and so consequently be condemned for it . christs prayer might be granted , this particular sinne of their crucifying christ might be forgiven unto them , and yet they might be everlastingly damned for it , and their other sinnes . how you can reconcile these things passeth my understanding , but i shall not be unwilling to learne . lastly , you seem to intimate , that some sinnes are so foule , as that they are of themselves a bar to repentance , for the desert of which god doth sometimes deny men either time for , or the grace of repentance . and hereby you entrench upon the freenesse of gods grace in mans effectuall vocation , which is the free gift of god , and therefore dispenced , not according to mens preceding carriages good or bad , but meerely according to the good pleasure of his will : but this argument i shall spare farther to prosecute , and referre you to our doctor , who hath abundantly laboured herein , as in other places , so especially in his examination of m r cotton his treatise of predestination , a pag. . usque ad . and againe , p. , . &c. usque ad . as for that which followeth , as also that which is in the beginning of this section , the examination of it is beside my present designe , which is to vindicate doctor twisse from what you object against him . yet if the reader desire satisfaction thereabouts , he may meet with it in doctor ames his coronis ad coll. hag. art. . c. . whither i shall in this hast referre him . and thus have i done with the defence of doctor twisse against your opposition of him : when i consider your fluent wit , and ready penne , i may expect from you a very speedy reply , which may be , as sharpe , so specious and rhetoricall enough . i shall desire this favour of the judicious reader , that he would suspend his censure untill he hath my rejoynder , which i shall not deferre long , if god grant me his assistance . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e de auctore , ejus methodo , scholasticâ disputandi formâ , acumine & accuratione , judicium lectoribus relinquo ; quibus praeiverunt doctissimi ex toto orbe christiano viri , etiam ex iis qui in contraria sunt parte , fatentes , nihil acuratius , nihil exactius & plenius in hoc argumento hactenus proditum fuisse . hoc saltem omnibus piis placere debet , quod usque & ubique in bonam causam fuerit intentus ; camque , si quisquam aljus , ab absurdis objectis , & adversariorum calumniis , ita vindicavit , ut ex illius labore habeant non docti tantum , sed etiam minus exercitati , quo se possine extricare laqueis adversantium . ibid. cicero de senectute . heylins geography & torshells hypocrite . notes for div a -e rivet . inde factum est ut guilielmus twissus , vir doctissimus , & in controversiis illis exercitatissimus , causam illam dei , contra renascentem pelagianismum , tanquam alter bradwardinus , iterum defendendum sumpserit , & librum illum arminii tam decantatum non esse invincibilem , accurato & luculento scripto probaverit , nihil omittendo quod non excusserit , usque ad minutissima . quod opus quam fuerit acceptum , ex eo colligi potest , quod . quamvis sit magnae molis , duabus editionibus distractis tertia nuper prodiit apud eundem typographum , qui primam curaverat . hoc labore notus & celebris factus author in transmarinis regionibus , &c. clarkes lives . notes for div a -e cor. . . cor. . . thes . . , . matth. . . thes . . . august . de praed . sanctc . . fidem elegit deus in praescientia ut quem crediturum esse praescivit , ipsum eligeret cui sp. sanctum daret ut bona operando vitam aeternam consequeretur . retract . lib. . cap. . apol. pro confes . remonst . fol. . p. . ezech. . revel . . . revel . . . censura censurae . thes . . aquin. . q. . art . . nullus fuit ita insanae mentis ut diceret merita esse causam divinae praedestinationis ex parte actus praedestinantis . contr. iulian. pelag. lib. . cap. . sueton. edit . lugd. . pag. . ibid. p. . l. . contra iovin . prov. . . de grat. & lib. arbit . cap. . epist : . exam p. . zabarel . lib. . post . analyt . . lib. . ad simpli . quest . . exam. p. . & . contr. iulian. pelag. l. . cap. . de grat. & lib. arbitr . c. . pet. . . epist . . enchirid. cap. . ephes . . . timoth. . acts . . heb. . . ezech. . collat. hag. brand. p. . act. synodal . pag. . & . august . de civit . dei. l. . c. . lib. . de amiss . grat . & statis peccati . c. . exam. p. . armin. exam . p. . rom. . . defens . armin . pag. . the first motive . lib. . instit . c. . sect . . beza in rom. . v. . prosper in epist . ad august . hier. ad gal. cap. . . idem ad cap. mal. id. lib. . contr . pelag. synod . arelat . a . contra lucedum . bin. tom. . part . . fol. . bibl. l. . annot . . de grat. & lib. arbitr . l. . c. . aug. de den . persev . c. . rom. . . de dono persev . . bellar. de grat . & lib. arbit . l. . c. . epist . lib. . epist . . de don . pers . cap. . apolog : . adv . ruffin . aug. de doctr . christ . l. . c. . aug. de praed . sanct . l. . cap. . hist . pelag. lib. . of providence praef. in hist . pelag. dò . beza in col. mompelg . pag. . vide etiam osiander . brand. collog . hagh . pag. . act. syn. p. . pag. . psalm . . , , ioh. . , . aug. de den. persev . c. . * the doctor directs his speech unto s. nathaniel rich. rom. . . john . . corinth . . . tim. . . relat. pag. , . ostand . hist . eccles . pag. . colloq . mompelg . pag. , . hist . l. . annal. corinth . . . act. cor. . , . * et illud fide amplectendum . prosp . epist . ad ruffin . amos . ier. . . notes for div a -e repugnant to scripture . nec putemus in verbis scripturarum evangelium esse , sed in sensu , non in superficie , sed in medulla , non in sermonum foliis , sed in radice rationis . hieron . in epist . ad galat. c. . hist . pelag. lib. . . p. . rom. . . joh. . . acts . . jud. . tim. . . august . tract . . in joan. p. . . aug. in psal . . pag. . b. c. math. . . minut. faelix p. . rom. . . lamen . . * the doctor here alludes unto a known song . tim. . . this is alleadged also by our brittish divines in the synod of dort : rom. . . iohn . . rom. . . osi●nd . eccles , hi●●ent . ● . p. . d. tw●sse● . . di●r . . p. . fulgent . ad menim . l. . rom. . , , , . rom. . . rom. . ; gen. . judg. . , . zanch. lib. . c. . de nat . dei , q. . de praedest . sanct. eph. . . heb. . . eph. . . col. . . exod. . , . de grat. & lib. arbit . c. . rom. . . jer. . . ioh. . iohn . , . ier. . . tim. . ; rom. . . iob. . . rom. . . rom. . . l. . de nat . dei cap. . bucer in cap. . ad rom. q. de praedest . tim. . . rom. . . rom. . . tim. . : mar. . . mar. . . rom. . . rom. . . ephes . . . contra julian pelag. l. . c. . tertul. lib. cont . praxeam . heb. . . v. . kings . . ionah . . . genes . . mark. . . ro. . , . rom : . , , . mark. . . prosper de vocat . gent. l. . c. . p. . rom. . . deut. . , , . rom. . . prov. . . eccles . . . enchirid. cap. . ephes . . . thes . . . prov. . . cor. . . rom. . . rom. . . rom. . . rom. . , . math. . . titus . . rom. . , . iohn . , . suffrag . brittaine p. . . art : . thesi . . cor. . , . prosp . ad cap : gall : resp . ad obiect : . rom. . cor. . . cor. . , . tim. . . mark. . . ep. . mark. . . ephes . . . enchirid. c. . iohn . suffrag . britt . p. . thes . . & p. . thes . . in the english translation . pag. . pag. . pag. . pag. . pag. . pag. . de grat . & lib. arb . c. . suffrag . erittaine . p. . prov. . . rom. . . contra juli. pelag. l. . cap. . cor. . , . luke . . . isai . . . peter . . . psal . . . rom. . , . . . rom. . retract . lib. . c. . act. . . cor. . . mar. . . * histor . pelag p. . isai . . . tim. . . tim. . . rom. . nehem. . es . . heb. . gal. . ioh. . rom. . instit . lib. . c. . sect. . hist . lib. . de memor . hist . c. . p. . pet. . gal. . rom. . v. . v. . act. . . ioh. . ezek. . . ezek. . deut. . . eph. . phil. . . heb. . . histor . haer . pelag. l. . th . . p. . pet. . luk. . . pet. . . cor. . . & . last . cor. . . phil. . . instit : l : . c : . sect : . in rom : q. . de praedest : zanch : lib : : de natura dei. quaest : de praedest . georg. major in tim. . fol. . . iac. . . ioh. . . deut. : ioh. . , , . rom. . censura censurae . p. . act. . . ezek. . . deut. . . ezek. . , . es . . . hos . . . pet. . ier. . . king : . melanct. loc . com . p. . c. de praedest . es . . . eph. . . phil. . . in censura censurae . p. . eph. . , , . tim. . last . piscat . contra shafman de praedest . thes . . esay . gen. . . v. . ioh. . notes for div a -e thing enquired after . i have read this in one of their letters directed to a scholler of oxford who imparted it to me notes for div a -e m. mason's ad-vitions pag : . answer m. mason's additions p. . answer . pet. . . m. mason's additions pag : . answer m. mason's additions p. . answer . heb. . . m. mason's additions p. . answer . * and it is sometimes more harshly proposed by the massilienses then by the galli . p. q. . art : . in corp. m. mason's additions p. . . answer . * in answer to charity mistaken . m. mason's additions p. . . . answer . m. mason's additions p. . , , pag. . pag. . pag. . pag. . answer . prrov . . . pro : . . m. mason's additions p. . . . hos : . . ezec : . . lamēt : . : resp : ad . object : vincent : exod : . . ps : . . ioel : . . ion : . . micah . . . gen : . . answer . deut. . . ps : . . rom : . . rom : . . ier. . gen : . . eph : . . eph : . . prov : . . rom : . . rom : . . rom : . . eph : . . ier. . . rom : . . rom : . . eph : . , gal : . . gal : . . rom : . . vers . . io : . . io : . . gen : . . ioh. . . mat : . . ier. . p. t. . . m. mason's additons p. . . object . answer . reply . lib. p. . digres . . vindic. l. . p : . digres . . rom : . . ps : . ps : . . raynaud : in adit . ad lib. intitul . valerianus integer doctrinae labisque purus . m. mason's addit . p. . . object . . perkins lib. de predestin : p. . answer . repl. rom : . . exam : praedest . perkin : p. . austine m. mason's aditions p. . . d. twis : his vindiciae l. . p. . digres . . answer . m. mason's aditions p. . . aug. epist . ad bon. . answer . ezech : . . m. mason's addit . p. . answer . m. mason's addit . . p. . . answer . bradward . lib. . c. ult . iav , . . m. mason's addit . p. . hierom : in . matt : c. . v. . iob : . . . . eccles . . . . . answer . eccles . . , , . io : . . tusculan , quaest . . m. mason's adait . p. . . . answer . exam. praedest . perk. p. . mat. . . rom. . cor. . . ioh. . rom. deut. . . phil. . . eph. . . acts. . . tim. . heb. . . phil. . . gen. . m. mason's addit . p. . . psal . . . es . . . iam : . . jo : . . ecclus. . . prosper resp . ad object . . vincent . resp . obi. . vincent l. . ad monim . c. . l. . cont . marcion . c. basil . homil. quod deus non est &c. answer . es . . . es . . . rom. . aug : de grat : & lib : arbit . es . . . lib. . de amiss . gratia . ia : . . col. . . gen : . . ps . . . ioh. . . pet. . . thes . . . rom. . . acts. . . amos. . . . prov. . . sam. . . kings . . . enchiria . cap. . . cont. iulian : l. . c. . enchirid : c. . esa : . . amos. . . de auxil . l. . c. . num . . lib. . digres . . m. mason's addit . p. . , . . comment in jo. c. . v. . piscat . cont . shalm . p , . thes . . maceov . dis . . pag. . zanch. l. . de nat . dei c. . de praedest . part . . resp . ad post . arg : prope finem . calv. l. . instit . c. . sect : . pisc . resp ad dupl . vorst . part . . p. . calv. instit . l. . c. . sect. . ibid. c. . sect : . instit . l. . c. . sect : . deut : . . answer . . p. quaest . . art . . . p. . art . . & quaest . . art . . corp. aquin. . p q. . art . . concl . . p. q. . art . . in corp . includ it voluntatem permittendi aliquē cadere in culpam & inferendi damnationis poenam pro culpam . act. . . thom : . part q. . art . . ad tertium . deut. . . deut. . . . prov. . . deut : . . eph : . io. . deut : . . rom : . . cal : opuse : . m. mason's addit . p. . . jo : . . . io : . . . v. . answer : ier : . . esa . . ier : . . ier : . . act : . . disput . theol . pag. . lib. . digres . . & . act : . l. . c. . . . suarez : de auxil . lib. . c. . num : . raynaud : in in vindcationi . ier : . . es : . . m. mason's addit . . p. . . molin . anat. c. . de praedest . pag. . sueton. vit . tib. cap. . answer . gen : . . sam : . . chron : . . ier : . . act : . . anat : p. . anat : p. . rom : . . v. . v. . sam , , vers . . lib. , digr : . rom : . . m. mason's addit . . p. . . answer . de gen : cont . manich. l. . cap. . de praedest . sanct : . c. . eph : . . pet : . . gal : . . rom : . . tim : . . tit : . . pet : . . mat : . rom : . . io : . corvin . defens . armin. pag : . de bono perseveran : c. con : . enchirid. . act : . . rev : . . es . . . zach : . aug. cont . iulian : pela : l. . c. . rom : . jo : . m. mason's addit . p. . , , . colloq mompel : part . p. . cal : instit . lib. . c . sect : . vers . . id : ibid. lib. , c. . sect. . colloq : theol. disp : . pag. . answer . lib : . cont : marcion . enchirid. . es . . . rom : . . dent : . sect : . vers . . vers . . act : . . act : . . sam : . , & . . ps : . . , hist : gotesch : pag. . gen : . . lib. . de auxil disp : p. . num . lin : penult : ro : . ro : . io : . l. . digrs . . criminat . . sect : . m. mason's addit . p. . . answer . rev : . . ro. . . prov : . . ro. . . thom : : p. q : . art . . ad tertiū . sam : . . . kin : . . es : . . ezra : , king : . . sam : . . prov : . . m. mason's addit . p. . . mat : . . co : . . answer . de aux : disp ▪ disp . . disp . . ibid. disp : . pag. . ibid de aux : disp ● . pag. . ● . . bradw , de causa dei l. . c. . id ibid , c. . disp . . num : . heb : . . eph : . . act : . . gen : . . m. mason's addit . p. . . answer . act : . . pet : . . rev : . . ro : . esa : . habak : . es : . . prov : . ro : . . verse . verse . verse . verse . aug : contra julian : pelag. l. . cap : . lib. cont . jul. pelag : cap . aquia : q : . de volunt . dei arti● . . iob : . . verse . verse . act : . . es : . . es : . . heb : . . zeph : . rom : . . es : . . . iob . . ex : . . rom : . . zeph : . . lib. . digr : m. mason's addit . pag , . , . jo : . . apol : . a little beyond the middle . fati ista culpa est : nemo fit faio nocens . answer . jo : . . ro : . . es : . v. . co : . . ro : . . eth : l. . . eph : . . tim : . last . io : . rom : . aug : contra duas epist . pe. lag : ad bonifacium . austin : de civit dei l. . cap. . art. . . p. q. . art . . vindic : l. . digres . . m. mason's addit . p. . . . val : max. l. . c. . gell : l. . c. . answer . . enchirid. c. . act : . . rev : . . de civit . dei l. . c. . gen : . . in first dist . . quaest . . artic : . arist . l . . ibid. prov : . act : . . es : . this digression in his late book against . corvinius pag. . . &c. m. mesons addit . p . . lib. . contra maxion : epiph : adversus baer : l. . haer . . uum . . aug : l. . contra faust . c. . presp . ad object . . vinc : fulg. l. . c. . ad moni . c . bern : l. de grat . & lib. arbit . p. . epiph. l. . adv . haer . . p. . n. . prosp . ad cap. gal : sent. . answer . . . king : . . es : . . ex , . . deut : . . jer : . ezech : . . ezek. . . phil : . . heb : . . collat : cum junto pag : . phil. . . heb. . . enchirid. c. . m. masons addit . p . , . vindic : grat : l. par : . cap. . initio . instit . l. . c. . sect : . vindic. grat . l. . par . . digr . . c. . propè finem bern : serm. . domi : post . . epiphan . ezek. . : mat. . . . answer . cap. . rom : . . rom. . cornel : in ep : ad rom ▪ c. . . calvin . de occult . dei provid . rom. . . . aust de gen : cont manich : l. , c. . enchirid. c. . aust : de cor : rep : & grat : c. . ibid. cap. . aust : de praedest : sanct : cap. . eph : . act : . & . . tim : . last . phil. . . august : de nuptitis c. . . . q. . ant . . in corp . m. mason addit . p. . , . suffr : brit : art : . de repr : thes . . walae : defens : anat : armin : c. derepr . suffr : brit : thes : . de reprob . act : syn : suffrag : gener : de reprob : act : syn : suffr . lubbert de reprob . answer . . tim. . m. mason addit . p. . & . . suffr-brit . art . . de repr . explic . thes . . orthodox ibid. thes . . heterodox . act. synod . palat . thes . . ibid , thes : . judic theol. hassiac . tertul : l. . contr . maccion . c. . answer . ro. . . ro. . . exod. . . psal . . deut. . rom. . , , . rom aug : cont : jul : pelag : l. . c. . pag : . m. mason addit . p. . senten : super . c. gall : answer . tim : . tim : . p . sect. . sub . sect . p. . & . m. mason addit . answer . aug : ep : . m. masons additions . hieron . proem . in hosea . zanch. l. . de nat . dei c. . q. thes : . mat : . ro : . . pet : . . eph : . l. . part . . de reprob . digr : . aug : adsimplician . l. . q. . rom. . . eph : . . mat : . . co. . . rom : . . col. . . mat : . . phil : , . ps : . . act : . . act : . last . jo : . . act : . ult . & . , co : . . thes . , . thes : , . rom. , . aug : de bono persever . c. . tim : . . rom : . . tit : . . rev : . & . . ro : . . m. mason's additions , lib. de praedest . contra schafin . p. . pag. . answer . mat. . . thes ; . . rev : . : esa : . v. . . . es : . . m. mason's additions . answer . eph : . . phil : . . col. . . eph : . . act : . . act : . . tim : . last tim : . . ro. . . aug : de civi : dei lib. . c : . si eclesia nosset qui praedestinati sin● ire in aeternum ignem cum diabo lotam pro ●is non magis oraret quam pro diabolo co : . . vers : . tim : . . act : . . . ezek : . . . . ex : . . . v. . ex : . . v : . v : . . . ex : . . ro. . . deut : . . vers . . eph : . . pet : . . tim : . . pet : . . pet : . . esa : . jer : . . act : . . es : . . jo : . . deut : . . deut : . . es : . . heb : . . phil : . . m. mason's additions . sam. . . answer . sam : . . tim : . . act : . . ezech : . . prov : . . . . aug. de grat . & lib. arbitr . cap. . ro : . thes : tit : . . phil : . . ro : . jo : . . tit : . . aug. de pradest . sanctorum c. . aug : de grati â christi . cap. . instit . l. . c. . num : . esay . . . ro : . : aug : de grat : & lib. arbit c. . jo : . . es : , . addit . answer : addit . cic. de finibus . p. . answ . aug. de bono persever . . august : retract . lib . cap. . notes for div a -e , ii. de corrept . & gratia . cap. . cap. . notes for div a -e h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. h. t. notes for div a -e d r twisse . sam. . . gen. . , see the second book of this treatise , from pag. . unto pag. . actio dei physica sive naturalis ea est , quâ concurrit cum omnibus causis secundis ad actus suos , sive influendo duntaxat in actus ipsarum , quod placet arminio , jesuitarum vestigiis insistenti ; sive movendo causas secundas ad agendum , quod nobis verisimilius videtur , quemadmodum & inter pontificios dominicanis , quae quidem controversia non est hujus loci , sed suo loco repetenda . hujus concursus divini ratione , nobis videtur absurde dici rem aliquam ideo evenire quia deus non impediat . omnis enim res , omnis actus , omnis eneitas , ideo fit , quia deus vult ut fiat , non permittendo sed efficiendo , idque principaliter . etenim deus est causa principalis , & immediata uniuscujusque entitatis , juxta omnes fere scholasticos , arminio etiam consentiente , pag. . nec arminianis , quod sciam , hactenus reluctantibus . absurde autem dicitur , deum permittere id fieri , quod facit ut fiat , idque principaliter ipsum efficiendo . neque hic opus est recurrere ad permissionem , cum omnes in rebus naturalibus agnoscant , & amplectantur dei efficientiam principalem & immediatam . vind. lib. . pag. . quare ad actiones naturales quod attinet , quatenus permissio notat suspensionem actionis naturalis , sic deus non versatur circa easdem dum fiunt , sed positivè facit . pag. . veruntamen & hoc etiam advertendum est ; cum contra piscatorem in hunc modum disputaret vorstius , permissio in eo , cui permissio fit , nihil omnino novl per se causat aut efficit , sed tantum vires & facultates semel illi datas , ab alienâ laesione tutas praestat , & liberum istarum exercitium eidem relinquit : imo nihil prorsus extra ipsum permittentem efficit , nisi quod actionem hujus impedientem cohibet , aut potius retinet , & quasi suspendit . est enim ipsa per se tantum decretum non impediendi : hoc est , for is non agendi . quomodo autem is , qui non agit , eo ipso quod non agit , aliquid extra se causet , vel alteri necessitatem agendi offerat ? aut quomodo is qui necessitatem hanc alteri offert , eo ipso nihil agere , sed alterius tantum actionem permittere , sive non impedire , sine contradictione dici possit ? videas jam quomodo ad ista vorstiana respondeat piscator , in marginalibus suis annotationibus . at ego ( inquit ) non dico quod deus tantùm permittat ea quae permittit : sed dico quod illa ipsa etiam gubernat ; respons . ad amic . collat. vorstii p. . idem p. . explicat quid sibi velit , cum ait , deum gubernate . denotant ( inquit ) illa effectionem quandam dei quoad peccara , sed non denotant effectionem talem , quâ deus ipse efficiat peccata , quatenus habent rationem peccatorum , ●en quatenus sunt peccata ; sed denotant gubernationem dei , quâ ut creator voluntates humanas flectit quocunque voluerit . ex his manifestum est , piscatorem sol● permissione dei minime acquievisse , ad hoc ut aliquid consequentèr fieri dicatur , sed ad gubernationem dei confugisse ; & ejusmodi gubernationem qua voluntates humanas flectit quocunque voluerit . ad rationem vero quod attinet , eam nullius esse pretii constanter affirmamus . nam pari rationis efficacia concludi posset , quia deus voluit ab aeterno , sive decrevit mundum creare , ergo mundus ab aeterno creatus est , vel quia deus ab aeterno mundum futurum praescivit , ergo mundus ab aeterno extitic . etenim relatio nihilo minus intercedit inter volitionem & rem volitam ; decretum & rem decretam ; praescientiam & rem praescitam , quam inter permissionem & rem permissam ; unde quamvis sequatur , deus voluit mundum ab aeterno , ergo ab aeterno mundus est volitus ; deus scivit mundum ab aeterno , ergo mundus ab aeterno est scitus ; deus permisit aut permittit actum fieri , ergo actus est aut fuit permissus . attamen inde nequaquam sequetur ; ergo quod volitum est , existebat , quum primum volitum erat ; aut quod permissum est , existebat , quum primum permissum est . dices , atqui quod volitum est a deo , necesse est ut aliquando sit ; ergo & quod permissum , similiter necesse erit , ut sit . imo , inquam , nequaquam sequitur . neque enim par est utrobique ratio , sed valde dispar ; quod & cuilibet manifestum est . neque enim permissio tam efficax est ad existentiam rei , quam volitio . nec tamen diffiteor hoc genus consequentiae procedere in causis naturalibus , sed non ex solâ vi permissionis , sed ex determinatione causae naturalis ad agendum nisi impediatur . de causis vero rationalibus & libere agentibus , nunquam obtinet hoc genus consequentiae , permittitur aliquid fieri , ergo fit . at , inquies , sunt relata ; & relata sunt simul naturâ . agnosco esse relata , & quatenus sunt relata converti ad consequentiam . positâ ergo permissione rei , necesse est ut res sit permissa ; perinde atque positâ volitione rei necesse est , ut res sit volita ; item positâ praescientia rei , necesse est ut res sit praescita . sed quemadmodum non sequitur , res est volita , ergo est ; aut res est praescita , ergo est ; perinde etiam non sequitur , res est permissa , ergo est . quemadmodum nec sola praescientia , aut volitio rei sufficit ad hoc , ut res existat ; ita etiam neque sola permissio rei sufficit ad hoc , ut res extra causas suas constituatur . haec tamen ratio , fateor , imposuit piscatori , pag. . ad amic . collat. vorstii . ubi sic disserit ; ubi autem permissio est , ibi etiam est factum quod permittitur . quomodo enim dici potest permitti illud , quod non fit ? certe pari ratione dici potest , permitti illud quod non fit ; quemadmodum dici potest , volitum esse quod tamen non fit ; licet ad existentiam rei , multo efficacior sit volitio , quam permissio . imo quomodo non dici possit , permitti aliquid quamvis non fiat , cùm permittere nihil aliud sit , quam neque facere ut aliquid fiat , neque ne fiat impedire . pergit piscator , quippe , inquiens , haec sunt relata , & proinde simul natura . quum igitur deus decrevit permittere peccata , necesse est ut illa fiant . at jam ostendimus , ex eo quod relata sint , hoc tantum sequi , positâ pern issione , rem esse permissam ; sic & positâ volitione rei , sequitur rem esse volitam ; & positâ praescientiâ rei , sequitur rem esse praescitam ; at hinc minime sequitur propterea rem actualem aliquam existentiam sortiri : ita etiam , licet positâ permissione , res merito dicatur esse permissa , at hinc non sequitur propterea rem esse simpliciter , & extra causas suas actualiter constitui ; quod si haec consecutio legitima esset , quod contendit piscator , non modo ex permissione dei , sequeretur rem e vestigio existere ; sed & ex quavis cujusvis hominis permissione ; atqui manifestum est ( nec piscator credo resisteret ) ex hominis permissione nequaquam sequi , quicquid permititur fieri , mox existere . so called in regard of its object . resp . &c. pag. . & . quid est praescientia nisi scientia futurorum ? quid autem futurum est deo , qui omnia super graditur tempora ? si enim in scientia res ipsas habet , non sunt ei futurae , sed praesentes ; ac per hoc non jam praescientia , sed rantum scientia dici potest . aug. lib. . ad simpl. vide plura , ib. nec zelus , nec ira , nec paenitentia , nec proprie misericordia , nec praescientia esse potest in deo. greg. moral . l. . c. . quid est praescientia nisi scientia futurorum ? aug. l. . ad simpl. q. . ne in aequivcco laboremus , supponendum est quid nomine scientiae significetur : non enim intelligimus qualitatem aliquam , vel habitum , aut actum propriè factum , seu elicitum à potentiâ , neque etiam cognitionem per discursum comparatam , aut aliam similem imperfectionem includentem : in quâ significatione videntur accepisse scientiam , qui dixerunt non esse proprie in deo , sed per metaphoram vel causalitatem illi attribui , id est , quia causat in nobis scientiam . hos enim non est verisimile intellexisse deum ita carere scientiâ , ut sit prorsus stolidus : nam cum faterentur deum esse fontem omnis scientiae creatae , non est verisimile credidisse deum esse omnino inscium . igitur , quia putarunt scientiam includere imperfectionem , ideo formaliter & proprie in deo esse negarunt . illae autem imperfectiones quasi materiales sunt , inventae in scientia humanâ , vel angelicâ , non vero pertinent ad rationem formalem scientiae , ut sic , quae hic abstractissimè sumitur , praescindendo à creata , & increata , & solum significat claram & evidentem ac perfectam cognitionem , seu perceptionem veritatis , seu objecti scibilis , sive illa perceptio fiat per qualitarem , sive per substantiam , sive cum effectione , & receptione , sive absque his imperfectionibus . metaph. disp . . sect. . num . . respondeo , verum esse nullam perfectionem creatam , secundum adaequatam rationem quam habet in creaturâ , esse in deo formaliter , sed eminenter tantum : non est enim in deo sapientia creata , nam ut sic est accidens , & finita perfectio , & idem est de caeteris similibus . dicitur ergo deus quasdam ex his perfectionibus continere formaliter , quia secundum eas habet aliquam formalem convenientiam cum creaturâ , ratione cujus illa perfectio secundum idem nomen , & eandem rationem , seu conceptum formalem attribuitur deo & creaturae , salvâ analogiâ , quae inter deum & creaturam semper intercedit . quando vero non est talis convenientia , nec formalis denominatio , sed sola efficacitas divinae virturis , tunc dicimus intercedere convenientiam eminentialem . atque ita in deo nulla perfectio est formaliter nisi vel secundum proprium conceptum dei , vel saltem secundum conceptum abstrahentem a deo , & creaturis . metaph. disp . . sect. . num . . recte , &c. intelligitur esse longe diversum modum vivendi divinae & creatae substantiae : & quod de divinis attributis positivis superius diximus , in hoc manifestillimum esse secundum modum , quo sunt in creaturis , non esse in deo formaliter , sed eminenter . esse autem in deo formaliter secundum modum altiorem , qui omnem imperfectionem creatutarum excludat . disp . . sect. . num . . * twisse de scientia media . pag. . . constat ( saith durand ) quod deus cognoscit contingens dum est praesens , putà socratem currere . alioquin ego cognoscerem illud quod deus ignoraret : si ergo non cognoscebat hoc prius quando fuit futurum , sequeretur quod aliquid accrevisset suae scientiae quod est impossibile . in . lib. distinct . . q. . piaeterea declaratur hoc modo ; quia vel deus scit haec contingentia , quando ponuntar in esse , vel non : hoc posterius nemo dicit , quia angelus , vel homo hoc cognoscit , saltem quando sunt prasentia : ergo multo magis deus : si autem nunc illa cognoscit , ergo & antea , quia scientia dei augeri non potest , ita ut aliquid novum sub illam cadat , tum propter immutabilitatem , tum eriam quia panlatim discere , quocunque modo siat , magna imperfectio est ; confirmatur , quia si deus in tempore aliquid de novo inciperet velle , imperfectionem in illo indicaret : ergo multò magis ●● aliquid de novo scire inciperet . lib. . de scientia●●turorum contingentium absoluta . cap. . cognitio divini intellectus ( saith a●uin ●● ) cōparatur ad res alias , sicut cognitio artificis ad artificiata , cum per suam scientiam fit causa rerum . artisex autem suae artis cognitione etiam ea quae nondum sunt artificiara cognoscir , ●orm● enim artis ex ejus scientiá efiluunt in exteriorem materiam ad artificiatorum constiturionem : unde nihil prohibet in scientia artificis esse formas quae nondum exterius prodierunt : sic igitur nihil prohibet , deum , corum quae non sunt , notitiam habere . lib. . contra gentes cap. . deus est causa omnium rerum & futurorum contingentium , & liberorum ( saith cumel ) in primam partem summ. q. . art. . disp . . per suam scientiam practicam , ergo prius scit & cognoscit futura couringentia & libera quam producantur & fiant ; sicut artisex prius haber ideam artificiati & cognoscit rem producendam & e●●iciendam , quam efficiat & producat pos●ea ad extra in tempore ; igitur deus qui artifex est universorum futurorum contingentium prius cognoscit futura contingentia , quam illa in tempore fiant . deus omnia operatur ad extra , ut artifex verò rem , antequam illam efficiat , praecognoscit : aliter enim irrationabiliter operabitur . parte prima . controv. xxx . pag. . effectus potest evidenter cognosci antequam in tempore producatur in sua causâ , sicut eclipsis evidenter cognoscitur in sua causâ , antequam sit , a mathematico , & ab astrologo : sed deus per seipsum & per propriam voluntatem est causa omnium entium contingentium , & liberorum , & praedefinit illa futura contingentia & libera . ergo deus per seipsum & per propriam scientiam , quam habet , cognoscit futura contingentia & libera . parres per quandam exaggerationem locuti sunt ut declararent perfectionem scientiae , quam deus habet de futuris ; nam illa tam clare & distinctè cum omnibus circumstantiis intuetur , ac si pra sentia actu jam existerent : ideoq , scientia illa non est abstractiva , sed propriissima intuitio . ad hoc ergo significandum dixerunt illam non tam esse dicendam praescientiam , quam scientiam . nam more humano loquendo , quae prasciuntur , non ita clarè & distinctè cognoscuntur . nam astrologus qui praescit suturam esse eclipsin , non apprchendit & cognoscit illum effectum distincte prout in re futurns est cum omnibus conditionibus & circumstantiis eius : & ideo non habet de illo scientiam intuitivam , sed abstractivam . at vero deus ram distincte intuetur futurum antequam sit , sicut quando est , tamque veram scientiam intuitivam illius habet . quocirca in eo sensu in quo illi patres voluerunt illam scientiam propriè appellare praescientiam ; illa particula prae non solum excludit realem existentiam , sed etiam praesentiam objectivam exactam , & omnimodam ●ffectus tie cogniti . respondeo , scopus augustini est ostendere non esse talem praescientiam in deo , qualis in nobis est . nos enim imperfecte , & quasi per coniecturas praescimus futura : at praesentia clare & perfecte cognoscimus . deus autem tam perfecte cognoscit futura , quam prasentia . hic patet discrimen inter nos & deum . . quia nostra cognitio perficitur ex praesentia rerum : non autem dei cognitio . . quia res futurae sunt deo praesentes per praesentiam perfectam nobis per imperfectam . quia nos eandem rem bis cognoscimus : semel imperfecte , quando futura est , & semel perfecte , quando praesens est . at deus semel tantum , quia cognitio dei est aeque , perfecta , sive res futura , sive praesens sit . nec aliud vult gregorius ; uterque negat praescientiam in deo , qualis in nobis est . sum. theolog. seolast . part . . tom. . cap. . quest . . * whereas our author p. . of the first book of this treatise affirmeth , that every thing in common attributed to god and man , is much more equivocall then the word canis attributed to a starre , to a fish , to a foure-footed creature on the earth , if he be to be understood in regard not of this physicall , but of a logicall equivocation . i must needs confesse , that i dissent from him for reasons that i shall presently specify . * mandatum dei non est voluntas dei proprie dicta ; quia illo non tam significet quid ipse vult fieri , quam quid nostri officii sit facere . d. twisse . vindiciae gratiae &c. p. . a rem a deo decretam cum re a deo mandata , pugnare posse dicimus ; decretum vero dei cum mandato pugnare posse non dicimus . twisse ubi supra dicendum quod in deo quaedam dicuntur proprie & quaedam secundum metaphoram , cum autem aliquae passiones humanae in divinam praedicationem metaphorice assumuntur , hoc fit secundum similitudinem effectus , unde illud quod est signum talis passionis in nobis , in deo nomine illius passionis metaphorice significatur ; sicut apud nos irati punire consueverunt , unde ipsa punitio est signum irae , & propter hoc ipsa punitio nomine irae significatur , cum deo attribuitur . similiter id quod solet esse in nobis signum voluntatis , quandoque metaphorice in deo voluntas dicitur , sicut cum aliquis praecipit aliquid , signum est , quod velit illud fieri ; unde praeceptum divinum quandoque metaphorice voluntas dei dicitur , secundum illud matthaei . fiat voluntas tua , sicut in coelo & in terra ; sed hoc distat inter voluntatem & iram , quia ira de deo nunquam proprie dicitur , cum in suo principali intellectu includat passionem , voluntas autem proprie de deo dicitur , & ideo in deo distinguitur voluntas proprie , & metaphorice dicta , voluntas enim proprie dicta vocatur voluntas beneplaciti ; voluntas autem metaphorice dicta est voluntas signi , eo quod ipsum signum voluntatis voluntas dicitur . aq●in . part . . sum. qu. . art . . communiter dicitur quod distinctio voluntatis divinae in voluntatem beneplaciti , & in voluntatem signi , est distinctio voluntatis in voluntatem proprie dictam , & metaphorice , nam voluntas beneplaciti est voluntas proprie dicta , vel actus suus volendi , quo aliquid fibi placet , sed voluntas signi dicitur metaphorice voluntas dei , eo modo quo signum nominatur metaphorice nomine rei , cujus est signum , ut imago herculis vocatur hercules et h●c potest esse dupliciter , uno modo ratione similitudinis inter signum & signatum ut in exemplo jam posito ; alio modo ratione proportionis quasi arguendo , quod ficut se habent signum & signatum in uno , sic se habeant in alio ; & sic est in proposito nostro : quia enim in nobis ille qui praecipit , vel consulit aliquid fieri , videtur illud velle : similiter qui prohibet aliquid fieri , videtur velle illud non fieri ; qui autem aliquid facit , vult illud fieri , qui vero permittit aliquid fieri cum possit impedire , videtur illud velle ; ideo in deo idem ponitur scilicet quod praeceptum , consilium , prohibitio , operatio , & permissio sunt , vel dicuntur voluntas divina propter dictam similitudinem vel magis proportionem . durand . lib. . dist . . q . haec divisio divinae voluntatis in voluntatem beneplaciti , & voluntatem signi , non est univoci in univocata , sed analogi in analogata . nam de signo divinae voluntatis non dicitur voluntatis nomen nisi metaphorice , & analogice , propter habitudinem illius ad voluntatem divinam proprie dictam . quam rem aliis verbis cajetanus expressit in hac quaestione . art. . cum dixit non dividi hic rem aliquam , sed vocem ipsam , seu nomen divinae voluntatis gregori de valentia . tom. . disp . . q. . punct . . praelatus enim religiosus quandoque praecipit subdito aliquid grave , volens eum per praeceptum ligare , & tamen nec vult , nec intendit , quod res quam praecipit fiat ; unde cum subditus parat se ad exequendum praeceptum , praelatus revocat ; ita quod praeceptur est directe signum voluntatis praecipientis quod velit obligari subditum ad exequ●ndum praeceptum , sed non est directe signum quod velit rem praeceptam impleri ; talia enim praecepta sunt vel ad sumendum experimentum de obedientia subditi , vel ad ostendendum pluribus obedientiam unius quasi pro exemplo . a rem a deo decretam cum re a deo mandata pugnare posse dicimus , decretum vero dei cum mandato pugnare posse non dicimus . tuisse ●●● sup . calumny arraign'd and cast. or a briefe answer to some extravagant and rank passages, lately fallen from the pen of william prynne, esquire, in a late discourse, entituled, truth triumphing over falshood, &c. against mr john goodwin, minister of the gospel. wherein the loyall, unfeigned and unstained affection of the said john goodwin to the parliament, and civill magistracie, is irrefragably and fully vindicated and asserted against those broad and unchristian imputations, most untruly suggested in the said discourse against him. by the said john goodvvin. licensed entered and printed according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) calumny arraign'd and cast. or a briefe answer to some extravagant and rank passages, lately fallen from the pen of william prynne, esquire, in a late discourse, entituled, truth triumphing over falshood, &c. against mr john goodwin, minister of the gospel. wherein the loyall, unfeigned and unstained affection of the said john goodwin to the parliament, and civill magistracie, is irrefragably and fully vindicated and asserted against those broad and unchristian imputations, most untruly suggested in the said discourse against him. by the said john goodvvin. licensed entered and printed according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by m. simmons for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head-alley, london : . initial leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "jan: st"; the in imprint date is crossed out and altered to . reproduction of the original in the british library. eng prynne, william, - . -- truth triumphing over falshood, antiquity over novelty. puritans -- controversial literature -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no calumny arraign'd and cast. or a briefe answer to some extravagant and rank passages, lately fallen from the pen of william prynne, esquire, goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john pas sampled and proofread - john pas text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion calumny arraign'd and cast . or a briefe answer to some extravagant and rank passages , lately fallen from the pen of william prynne , esquire , in a late discourse , entituled , truth triumphing over falshood , &c. against mr john goodwin , minister of the gospel . wherein the loyall , unfeigned and unstained affection of the said john goodwin to the parliament , and civill magistracie , is irrefragably and fully vindicated and asserted against those broad and unchristian imputations , most untruly suggested in the said discourse against him . by the said john goodvvin . psal. . . every day they wrest my words : all their thoughts are against me for evill . psal. . . deliver my soule , o lord , from lying lips , and from a deceitfull tongue . gal. . . have yee suffered so many things in vaine ? if yet it be in vaine . praeceptum trahit praeceptum , & transgressio trahit transgressionem . dictum hebraeorum . ex mercero in prov. . . apologiae nullas aures inveniunt : calumniae omnes praeoccupant . oecolam . epist. licensed entered and printed according to order . london ; printed by m. simmons for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head-alley . . to the reader . reader ; my businesse with thee ( at present ) is not much . onely upon occasion of those passages of my antagonist , replied unto in the following discourse , i could not without breach of dutie , but administer this preservative unto thee against the danger of very many writings on that side ; that if thou beleevest them , especially in what they present concerning either the persons or opinions of their adversaries , without strict examination , thou art like to imbrace nubem pro junone , and to match thy understanding with untruth . which kind of marriage oft-times and in many cases , proves of as sad and unhappie consequence unto men , as ahabs joyning himself in this relation with jezabel did unto him ; concerning whom the sacred record avoucheth this ; that there was none like ahab , who did sell himself to work wickednesse in the sight of the lord , whom jezabel his wise provoked a . errors and misprisions concerning the persons , practises , and opinions of men , having taken the fancies and imaginations of some men , many times work them into very uncouth , violent , unseemly , and unchristian distempers , which makes them out of measure forgetfull of themselves , and of all rules of reason , equitie , and good conscience , in their representations of , and contestations against both the one and the other . especially when the speciall and particular points of difference between them and others , are of a difficult eviction and clearing on their parts , the resentment hereof is a sore temptation upon them to make many a voyage beyond the line of truth , to fetch apes and peacocks , and i know not what monsters both of practises and opinions to bestow upon them ; that so the uncontroverted disparagement which they hope to derive upon their opposites by such imputations as these , may help to mediate the like disparagement of their judgements in those other matters of difference , in the thoughts and minds of men . nor doth an accuser ( ordinarily ) open his mouth to that widenesse , or lift up his voyce to that strength and straine of clamour , when he can come by any thing that is reall and matter of truth , to make his accusation , as when he is constrained to serve his disposition in that kinde , with that which is fictitious , and pretended onely . the jews that sought the suppression and ruine of our saviour , not being able to prove any thing of reall demerit against him ( for pilate himself knew well that they had delivered him out of envie a ) thought to fill up the emptinesse of their cause or accusation , with the abundant loudnesse and importunitie of their clamour and cry : but they cryed , away with him , away with him : crucifie him . and in another place , because they could not with truth reprove him of any sin b ; being put upon it to feigne , they did it to purpose , and charged him with being a samaritan and having a devill c . who would have thought that the gentleman ( my antagonist in the ensuing pages ) or a. s. the duplicator against m. s. and some others of the same engagement , that i could name , would ever have sought protection for the cause they desire to maintaine , at those polluted sanctuaries of untruth ! if our opinions know not how to maintaine themselves and live , without the undue disparagement , or collaterall impeachment of those who are of opposite judgement to us therein , it is a sore testimony against them , that they are but counterfeits , and not of the royall line and race of truth ; who is able to maintaine all her legitimate off-spring , with her owne demeans , and native inheritance , without the unjust taxations of the reputation , practises , or opinions of her adversaries . till the sons of difference in matters controversiall , give over all wresting ( at least , all wilfull wresting ) and perverting of the sayings , doings , and opinions of their opposites , and catching at impertinencies and lighter oversights , and lie close in their reasonings to the points in difference ; they will never doe any great matter , either for the truth , or for their owne repute , amongst sober and advised men . this briefe advertisement i thought needfull to impart unto thee ; and if thou hast the taste and relish of it in thy spirit , i have nothing by way of transaction further with thee ( for the present ) but onely to expresse my desires unto god on thy behalf , that the perusall of the little piece ensuing , may either make or keepe thy thoughts streight concerning the man , ( a friend of thine , who ever thou beest ) whom thou shalt finde fiercely accused , and yet ( i hope ) sufficiently ( though calmely ) acquitted therein . it is a speciall grace of god vouchsafed unto thee , to be preserved , from making that crooked , which he hath made streight . from my study in colemanstreet . london . jan. . . thine in him who is our all in all , john goodvvin . faults escaped in some copies . pag. . l. . for , confidence , r. confidence . pag. . l. . for , rerum , r. reum . ibidem . l. . for , contemned , r. continued . pag. . l. . for , rf , r. of . pag. . l. . for , right , r. law . pag. . l. . for , declare , r. decline . pag. . l. . for , not onely , r. not onely not . pag. . l. . for , shacking , r , sharking . pag. . l. . for , commodious , r. commodiously . pag. . l. . for , yet ( and , r. ( and yet . calumny arraign'd and cast . since the finishing of my lately publish'd a discourse , my antagonist having ( as it seems by his own expression b ) sacrificed the necessary naturall rest of his body , upon the service of the un-necessary and violent restlesnesse of his spirit , hath thereby gotten the opportunitie of doing very good service to the way of independencie ( so called ) by sending forth a discourse into the world , intituled truth triumphing over falshood ; i. ( by the figure hypallage ) falshood triumphing over truth : for whereas the weight of his credit and reputation before lay somewhat heavy upon the shoulder of independencie , and oppressed it ; by the unchristian extravagancie and impertinencie of this discourse , he hath so farre eas'd and reduced the burthensomnesse of it , that it may now be endured and borne without much detriment or disadvantage . and doubtlesse , divine providence was above him in drawing this acknowledgement and confession from him , that these collections or lucubrations of his are distracted c and impotent d : distracted they are in point of argument or reason ; impotent , in point of heat , height , and passion . or did we wave his own confession of the distractednesse of them , his expectation of such preferment for them as the satisfaction of the learned e , yea , and conviction of all the world f , were a demonstration , and that à priori , of such a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or affection cleaving to them . for can any man , with any consistency of reason , expect or think , that learned men , who have risen early , and gone to bed late , bestowed much time and paines to inquire out the truth and certainty of what they hold and professe , should yet be so desultorie and light in their judgements , as by a few indigested , nocturnall a , subitane b , impotent c collections and lucubrations to be turned out of their way ; especially when the collector makes no more conscience of speaking truth in matters of fact and of the most obvious and easie cognizance , then mr. prynne in many passages doth in these his lucubrations ? doth he think that the elaborate and long-studied notions and apprehensions of learned men , are of no better use or worth , then onely to adorn the trophies and triumphs of his extemporanie pen ? if he expected such obsequiousnesse of faith from the judgements of learned men to his subitane and indigested collections , in matters of more difficultie and weight , his method had been to have laid the foundation of such credence , by speaking truth in those things , which are every mans inquirie and cognizance , and wherein the miscarriage of his pen is obvious unto all . for he that hath not so much policie as in parvis sibi fidem praestruere , will never get an opportunitie magnâ mercede fallendi . and he that will not deale honestly in the light , who will trust in the dark ? i shall not ( for the present ) insist upon the refutation of those twelve imputations in his epistle to the reader , wherewith he labours to render the independents odious ; all and every of which , ( except the fift ) are every whit as appliable ( as i am able to demonstrate in the sight of the sunne ) to his partie , as to the independents , and some of them with farre more truth to the former , then to the latter . and for that inference which he deduceth from the fift particular there charged upon the independents ( which is the sting of the charge ) as viz. that denying there is any nationall church under the new testament , they must of necessitie deny one article of their creede , that there is a catholique church ; this collection ( i say ) is so impotent and undigested , that he that runs may reade non sequitur written in the face of it . nor secondly , do i intend to unbinde or meddle with that farrago , that bundle of blind learning ; i mean , those transcriptions and quotations , fetch'd many ( if not most ) of them , out of the darkest times of popery , ( as himself somewhere doth little lesse then confesse ) d which are the bulkie and unweildie part of his discourse : for , what communion hath light with darknesse ? old obsolete , exolete records , fetch'd out of the darkest times of popery , are no vrim and thummim , no oracles to be consulted about the mind of jesus christ ; no competent judges or interpreters of the lawes and statutes of heaven . the saying of cyprian is seasonable upon this occasion : this is not to be esteemed true antiquity to understand , quid hic aut ille ante nos fecerit , aut docuerit , sed quid is qui ante omnes est christus , &c. i. what this or that man did or taught before us , but what hee did and taught who was before all , even christ himselfe , who only is the way , the truth , and the life , from whose precepts we ought not to digresse a . and besides , if mr prynnes hand was no steadier , in transcribing these old matters , then it hath been in some things of later date concerning me , his antiquity it self may have cause enough to complain of being perverted into noveltie . nor thirdly , shall i thrust my sickle into my brother burtons harvest ; but leave the latter part of the discourse unto him , either to neglect , or answer , as god shall direct him . but fourthly , ( and lastly ) i shall briefly acquaint the reader , how unworthily my antagonist hath dealt by me , ( that i say not by himself , and his own reputation ) first , by assertion of untruths ; secondly , by cruell and unreasonable wrestings and torturing of my words , to make them speak what they never meant ; thirdly , ( and lastly ) by slight and empty replies to things asserted and laid down by me . for the first , he cites my two sermons ( intituled theomachia ) and my innocencies triumph , as denying ( hee means disswading ) all opposition in word , deed , or thought against the way of independency , as a direct fighting against god b ; which is a most notorious untruth ; all that i drive at in these discourses , is to disswade men from opposing this way with an high hand , lest in so doing , men should fight against god : there is no such assertion as this which mr pryn chargeth upon me , nor any neer it , or like unto it , in either of those tracts . i no where affirm , all opposition to this way , whether in word , deed , or thought , to be a direct fighting against god . nay , p. . of my theomachia , i affirm the quite contrary , viz. that it is not every degree or kinde of opposing a way or doctrine which is from god , which either the text or the doctrine calleth a fighting against god ; but only such an opposing which is peremptory , and carried on with an high hand , &c. . he cites my sermon , preached febr. . . my theomachia and innocencies triumph , as holding forth this position , that every particular congregation of visible saints , and independent church , is under the government of christ alone , as the only head , king , governour , law-giver of it ; and subject to no other jurisdiction , then that of christ , his word and spirit , &c. a which conclusion , though generally held and maintained by protestants against papists ; and in that respect i need neither be afraid , nor ashamed to own it ; yet if hee can find , or make out with any tolerable construction of words and saying , of any , or all of those pieces of mine which he chargeth with it , let mr pryn be true , and me the lier . but if otherwise , currat lex , &c. . he chargeth me with affirming ( in the fore-mentioned sermon ) that it would be more easie for me , and i should rather yeeld to be torn in pieces by wild horses , then submit to such a government which proceeded from a parliament chosen by the riffe-raffe of the world , b &c. never was there an innocent and harmlesse expression more cruelly and despitefully handled , since the world was first haunted with a spirit of unrighteousnesse and untruth . the passage of mine , represented by mr prynne , as you have heard , was only this ( i shall go as neer the very words as my best memory will lead mee ; but the effect and substance of the saying i perfectly remember ) it were as easie for mee to be torn in pieces by wild horses , as to submit to any church-government whatsoever , which is not agreeable to the scriptures , and minde of christ . but to deny subjection unto a government which should proceed from a parliament , because chosen by the riffe-raffe of the world ( which terms i mean the riffe-raffe of the world , are suppositious too , and none of mine ) was so far from my thoughts in that sermon , that i expresly declared , and said ( as severall of those that were examined about the sermon before the committee , there testified , and i nothing doubt , but to this day , do perfectly remember the saying ) that as a church-government was not therefore to be received or submitted unto , because it is injoyn'd by men ; so neither is it therefore to be rejected , because it is commanded by men . . he cites the fore-mentioned sermons ( called theomachia ) as holding forth this assertion , p. , , . that perchance all , or the greatest part of the parliament and assembly are not indued with the sanctifying spirit of god , c &c. if there be so much as the least hint or insinuation of any such matter in any , in all of those pages , i shall mistrust either my eyes , or my sensus communis for ever . but if it be otherwise , mr. prynnes tongue and pen ( as well they deserve ) are like to beare the burthen of this my diffidence . . hee cites the prementioned , theomachia , with my two books since , for crying up the independent way , as the very government , discipline , kingdome and ordinance and christ himself , a &c. whereas , first , since the coming out of my theomachia , i had put forth only one book ( and that a very small one too , and which the violent and mercilesse proceedings of himself against mee , extorted from me , ) when this was affirmed and printed by him . and secondly , there is no such cry , as that wch his fancie is troubled with , to be heard throughout either the one of those books , or the other . so that here is a double notorious untruth in this quotation : . that i had set forth two books , since my theomachia : . that in these two , as also in my theomachia , i cryed up the independent way , as the very government , discipline , kingdome and ordinance of christ . . whereas hee avers , that pending the complaint against me before the committee for plundered ministers , for some antiparliamentary passages ( so called by him ) with other particulars , i justified the said passages again very unseasonably in the pulpit on a solemn first day , and likewise in two printed books , to the one whereof i prefixed my name b ; the truth is , first , that ( if my memory serves me not as ill as mr. prynnes confidence serveth him ) i never justified , nor medled with those passages he speaks of in the pulpit , either on any solemn fast day , or any other , within that compasse he speaks of : nor secondly , had i justified them in two books , when mr. pryns pen avouched it , though by this time it may be interpreted that i have ; nor thirdly , have i put forth any book since , to which i have not prefixed my name ; or at least suffixed it to an epistle , if not at large , yet by the initiall letters of it . therefore if mr. pryn implies , that i have published any book within the time hee speaks of , which i do not publikely own , he is implicated with a further untruth in such his implication . . whereas he affirms ( with no want of confidence ) that hee hath elsewhere answered , and fully refuted c the passagers aforesaid ; what truth there is in this affirmation , let my last discourse d testifie . he hath answered those passages of mine he speaks of , much in such a sense , and after such a manner , as mr. walker and mr. roburrough , have answered my socinian errors : which answers hee adviseth his reader to see ( p. . in the margent ) but tells him not where they are to be seen . . whereas he chargeth me in my innocencies triumph ( quarrelling with the very title , as if it were unfit , and he unwilling that innocency should triumph ) with denying those very matters of fact which i voluntarily confessed in his hearing before the committee a , for which i was sequestred ; the truth is , that there is no truth at all in this his allegation or charge . for , first , i am certain , that jesus christ was present at the committee , as well as mr. prynne ; and certain i am that in his hearing ( which is every whit as good as mr. pryns ) i confessed nothing there , which is denyed by me in my innocencies triumph . i neither confessed that i neglected my parishioners , nor that i seldome preached unto them , nor that i prescribe a covenant to my independent congregation , with in stead of my parishioners i have gathered to my self , before they be admitted ; nor that i receive tithes of my parishioners in any other way , or after any other manner , then as i declare and expresse in my said book . if i had confessed any of these things , either before the committee , or any others , i had been of mr. prynnes confederacie against mine own innocencie , and the truth . but what i did confesse before the committee , i confesse as plainly in my innocencies triumph ; as viz. first , that i had refused to baptize some children of my parishioners b . secondly , that i had not administred the sacrament to my parish for some moneths c . again , secondly , whereas he saith that i was sequestred d by the committee , for the matters before mentioned , and denyed by mee in my innocencies triumph , in this hee asperseth the honourable committee every whit as much ( if not more ) then mee . for ( doubtlesse ) it no way stands with their honour to sequester a man for that which was never done by him . nor thirdly , do i know whether i may take mr. prynnes word ( it is now grown so unstable ) that i am suspended , censured , or sequestred by the committee , either for the one thing , or the other ; and besides , a friend of mine , inquiring of some that are members of the said committee concerning that suspension or sequestration which mr. prynne speaks of , received this answer from them , that they knew no such thing . i suppose it is not ordinary , that a sentence or censure should passe in a court of justice against any man , and hee not to have any knowledge of it for severall moneths together : but if it be so , gods will , and mr. prynnes wish , ( fiat justitia ) in mr. prynnes sense , are fulfilled together . . he is not ashamed to avouch , that i publish my brain-sick jealousies and suspicions of the parliament behind their backs in open pulpit , and then to the whole world in print ( a strange misdemeanor indeed , and more monstrous and incredible , then ever committed by the very pope or turk himself , or the great antichrist , or the arch-prelate , or oxford aulicus , or the most venemous malignant , that a man should doe that behind mens back , which he doth in print to the whole world ) of purpose to make my auditors , readers , jealous of them , as men who invaded the very incommunicable royalties and priviledges of heaven a : whereas the god of heaven , who knows my purpose and intent in those passages ( as in all my actions besides ) much better then mr. prynne knows the contrary ; and that my purpose therein was singly and simply , and with all faithfulnesse , as becomes a minister of jesus christ , to caution those worthy persons of honor and trust , against that snare of sinning against god , into which great places of power and interest in the world are apt to lead men before they are aware . . he chargeth my late sermons and pamphlets to have kindled such unhappie flames of contention in our church and state , as all the teares of repentance which i may shed , will not be sufficient to quench . for my part i know of no such , i heare of no such , i know no cause why i should imagine that any such unhappie flames as he speaks of , should be kindled by any of my sermons or writings . i have much more reason to conceive and think , that mr. prynnes writings charge mine with kindling flames of contention , much after the same manner , and upon the same terms , that one charged eliah with being the troubler of israel b : and that mine may recharge his , as the prophet did that king c . . whereas he further chargeth me , that in my innocencies triumph , i slander the parliament more then before , and shew my self a man despising government ( at least any church-government the parliament shall establish not sutable to my fancy ) self-willed , and even speaking evill of dignities , &c. d ; the truth is , that there is far more slander in the charge , then in the crime : the best is , that that book is open before the world , to see and judge whether therebe , i doe not say any aspersion of slander , but so much as the least touch or tincture of any thing dishonourable to the parliament , or to any government or dignitie whatsoever , because not sutable to my fancie . . whereas he insinuates a guilt upon me of socinian errors a , and in his margent invites his reader to see mr. walkers and mr. roburroughs answers to them ; the truth is , that in the answers he speaks of , his reader may see and finde mistakes of my opinion , and confutations of those mistakes , as substantially managed as want of apprehension of my thoughts , and somewhat else , was able to manage such an enterprize : but for any socinian errors of mine , they are onely to be seene in such books as were never written : and then where the answers to them are to be seene , remaines yet as matter of further inquirie for mr. prynne . for the second head propounded , the unreasonable wresting , torturing , and tormenting of my words , i shall chiefly insist upon his paraphrase upon that passage , recited ( in part ) by him , p. . ( but mis-cited in the margent , as touching the page , where it stands in my book ) . the tenor of the passage in this ; if i have denyed the least dram or scruple of that power which is truly parliamentary , and consistent with the word of the great and glorious god ( of which misdemeanor i am not in the least measure conscious unto my self as yet ) i most seriously and solemnly professe in the presence of this god ( my conscience bearing me witness in the holy ghost that i lie not ) that i did it out of a loving , tender and affectionate jealousie over the parliament , lest possibly they might dash their foote against that stone , by which all rule and all authoritie and power will one day be broken in pieces . so that if either my tongue or pen have in the least miscarried , it was , error amoris , not amor erroris , &c. you have heard the text : and if you have any mind to see darknesse brought out of light , hearken to the interpretation . but good sir ( saith this intepreter , one , i may say of twentie thousand ) can any rationall man think ( though you should protest it ten thousand times over ) that such anti-parliamentary passages as yours are , should proceed from your love to the parliament ? suppose the passages he speaks of were anti-parliaentary ( an aspersion i conceive fully attoned in the foregoing discourse ) yet is it so highly irrationall to conceive they should proceed from love to the parliament , ( especially upon ten thousand affidavits made for it ) that it must be made matter of a doubtfull disputation , whether it be possible for a rationall man so to think or conceive ? did mr. prynne never heare of a veine of people , who did bona animo malè precaris , wish that which was hurtfull to their friends , out of good affection towards them ? seneca ( i am certain ) speaks of such . and god himself is said to have testified things against his people ( as the former english translation , and junius out of the originall reads the place , gen. . . ) cannot a rationall man conceive that these things might proceed from love and good affection in god towards this people , because they were against them ? i cannot but think that mr. prynne himself hath been anti-parliamentary , i meane , hath done some things , ( if not many ) in their natures at least , if not in their fruits and effects , prejudiciall to the honour and safety of the parliament , as ( by name ) in representing their cordiall friends ( as sometimes his conscience , or something else prevailes with him to call them a ) unto them as dis-affected unto them , and as acting , and that successively against their jurisdiction more desperately then the worst malignant , royalist , cavalier , on the arch-prelate himself b ) . doubtlesse , such a practise as this , is in the nature and tendency of it very disserviceable to the parliament ; as making sad ( and so indisposing ) the hearts of those , whose inclinations otherwise stand ready bent with all chearfulness , to serve the parliament with all their strength and all their power , as ( blessed be god ) they are resolved to doe ; after the example of christ , who continued still to cast out devils , though represented by the pharisees unto the people , as dealing by beelzebub the prince of the devils , in casting them out . compare mat. . . with mat. . . &c. so againe by representing unto them as peaceable , innocent and harmlesse a generation of men , as the land beares any , yea , persons as deeply and dearly devoted unto , of as high and honourable endeavours to promote the publick peace both of church and state , as those that are extremely derogatory and destructive unto both , yea , and great disturbers of our peace and unitie c . yet againe when he infuseth such notions and principles into kings , magistrates , highest civill powers , as this , that christ hath delegated his kingly power unto them , &c. d . he spreads snares of death in their way , and tempts them to think higher thoughts of themselves then he that is higher then the highest of them will beare . now however in these and severall other things of like consideration ( which are ready too for instance ) i absolutely conceive him to be very whit ( yea , and much more ) anti-parliamentarie , then ever i have been in any passages whatsoever , whether from my tongue or pen ; yet doe i not think but that i may very lawfully , and without trespassing upon the reputation of my reason , conceive and think , that he did both the one and the other of the things mentioned , out of love to the parliament . secondly , the honey of the foresaid passage , by reason of an ill digestion in his stomach , breeds this cholerick argumentation : if this proceeded from such affectionate jealousie over the parliament , i pray what made you so strangely , if not malignantly , jealous over them , as to feare and presume they might dash their foote against that stone , which , &c. good sir , let me seriously intreat you to be more jealous over your pen for the time to come , and see to it , that in repeating and arguing mens words and sayings , it deale more honestly , then to adulterate and imbase them , as you doe both here and elsewhere in this discourse . doe i anywhere say that either i feare , or presume the parliament might dash their foote against the stone spoken of ? why then doe you represent me so strangely , if not malignantly , jealous over them , as to do both , both feare and presume ? i confesse , i should be very strangely jealous , or ( however ) very strangely affected in one kinde or other , both to feare and presume in respect of one and the same thing , as you feare not , but presume to say here that i doe . you find out i know not how many significations ( i beleeve more then ever any man did before you ) of the word presume , p. . to salve the reputation of your pen in charging me to have done that presumtuously , which i never did at all , or at most very ignorantly ; but is there any one amongst them all , that is able to reconcile presvmption and feare , and make them draw together in the same yoke ? but this by the way . onely this i desire you would candidly account unto me , why you translate my expression , lest possibly they might dash , by fearing and presuming they might dash . i beseech you deale ingenously with your self and me : is there not farre more malignancie in the interpretation , then in the text ? or did you not straine the roote overhard , to make such an extraction as this out of it ? nay , out of the vehemencie of your intention to make an unchristian advantage of your brothers words , did you not almost forget the proprietie of your owne ? i conceive i should speak much beneath the line of mr. prynnes reputation for a scholar , if i should expresse my self thus ; i feare and presume that mr. prynne might doe that which is very possible for any man to doe . an english care any thing well palated , would find no pleasant taste in such words . but let us give mr. prynne the libertie of an interpreter or translator , who is not bound verbum verbo reddere a , and accept of his substitues , presumption and feare ; is either a feare , or a presumption ( or both ) that a parliament might , or may , dash their foote against that stone i speak of , any demonstration or argument at all of so strange a jealousie as he speaks of , and which he is at a stand with himself , whether he should not call malignant ? if any of the other apostles had feared or presumed , that peter possibly might fall ( as he did ) by denying his master , ( as they had reason enough to have done , in respect of that humane frailtie whereof the best men are partakers , and peter himself was with the rest ) and had dealt lovingly and faithfully with him to have kept him upright , by caution , counsell , or advice ; had this been any argument at all , or so much as a colour of any such jealousie in them , which should have carried in it any touch of malignancie towards him ? when paul feared in the behalf of the corinthians , lest by any means , as the serpent beguiled eve through his subtiltie , so their minds should be corrupted from the simplicitie that is in christ b ; was this so strange a jealousie over them ? indeed himself calls it a godly jealousie c : and in such a sense , as godlinesse is strange d in the world , let mr. prynne vote my jealousie over the parliament , strange ; and then he shall be eas'd of his scruple , whether he should call it malignant , or no . but jacta alea est ; and he intends not to make a stand here , but advanceth thus . did the parliament ever give you the least colour or occasion of such uncharitable , unchristian , that i say not detestable , jealousie ? could you have harder or more jealous thoughts then these of the very pope or turk himself , or of that great antichrist , who exalts himself above all that is called god ? can such jealousies as these issue from any , but from a rancorous or dis-affected heart towards the parliament ? or did ever such execrable jealousies as these proceed from the heart , tongue , much lesse the pen of any oxford aulicus , or most venomous malignant to our parliament ? the straine of eloquence in these passages , may be thought above the line of mr. prynnes rhetorique ; nor can i beleeve but that he had some supernaturall assistance in the raising and composure of them . and therefore whereas others ( it 's like ) will be apt to censure him more for a few such lines as these , then for many others of a softer temper , and more plausible allay ; i on the contrary , can better beare with him in these , and be content to passe by and spare him , as our saviour spared peter , when he rebuked satan in his stead a . but did i know that mr. prynne would not accept of this purgation , but when recovered out of that tartarean ecstasie , wherein he spake this dialect of dragons , would still stand by and owne those ebullitions of bloud , as the naturall and genuine productions and fruit of his pen ; i should hardly refraine from taking a solemne vow and protestation upon me in the sight of god , angels , and men , never more to have to doe with him in word or deed , at least untill he repented , and turn'd christian . well might the apostle paul pray to be delivered from unreasonable men b : they that neither make use of their reason nor goodnesse , ( or charitie ) dwell in such a darkness which is inaccessible to all principles both of nature and grace . for the present , though i think it not meet for me so far to vvi my self of my libertie to comply with such opportunities from heaven , which may possibly and unexpectedly come in my way , as absolutely to abjure all commerce with him by pen ; yet this i professe , that i am as neere the brow of such a resolution , as ever i can goe without falling into it . from henceforth i shall give mr. prynne leave to write stormes and tempests , whirlwinds and earth-quakes , thundering and lightning , mill-stones and mountains , ( or if his pen knows how to utter it self in any thing more formidable then these ) better cheap , then hitherto i have done : i see there is no mercy with him ; and therefore i shall not feare him ; no , nor in the mind i am in for the present , ever look after him in his writings more , this answer finished . but to his lines ( or , whose-ever they be ) . first , doth mr. prynne think that he is heire to that laurell which was long since wreath'd for the head of socrates , reputed in his dayes the grand-matter of wisdome in the world ; tanquam umbrae velitant alii ; solus sapit iste ? other men generally as well learned and scholars by profession , as others , yea , even those in whose affections neither my person nor cause were any wayes interessed , gave testimony to my innocencies triumph ( and consequently to that passage also so cruelly handled by mr. prynne ) as moderately and inoffensively written : onely mr. prynne , as if his eyes were given him to condemne all the world besides of blindnesse , espies bears and tygers , lyons and dragons , where other men saw nothing but doves and sheep ; discovers fanatique jealousies , rancourousnesse and dis-affection of heart , execrablenesse of jealousies , oxfordian aulicisme , venomousnesse of malignancie , and i know not how many other strains of most portentuous and hideous outrage against the parliament , where no man besides himself either saw or could see , any jot , tittle , letter , syllable , word , or sentence , but what both was and is of the fairest consistencie with the honour , dignity , peace and safety of the parliament . but secondly , how irrationall and weak is that demand of his ; did the parliament ever give you the least colour or occasion of any such uncharitable , unchristian , that i say not detestable jealousie ? as if to feare , or think it possible that men might be men , that is , do weakly or unworthily , were an uncharitable , unchristian , detestable , execrable jealousie over them ; or , as if there were not ground and reason enough , yea , and more then enough , in the very natures of the best and holiest of men , to judge that they may very possibly miscarry , and that dangerously , unlesse they should adde ex superabundanti , such personall irregularities , as might further presage their future falls , i wonder what epithet or name mr. prynne will find for that jealousie of an ancient father over kings , out of which he uttered this saying : miror si aliquis rex salvahitur ; i wonder that any king should ever be saved . if so be such a jealousie over them , which only conceiveth a possibility of their perishing , be uncharitable , unchristian , detestable exeorable ; of what censure is that jealousie worthy of , which makes it matter of admiration that any of them should be saved ? considering that there hath scarce ( if at all ) been any councel or synod since the apostles dayes , but which hath miscarried and heterodogmatiz'd , more or lesse ; would it be my uncharitable , unchristian , detestable , execrable jealousie over any synod or councel now fitting , to think that they also might possibly miscarrie , unlesse they gave some particular and speciall occasion so to think and conceive of them ? but my adversarie hath not yet finished his severe commentaries upon his gentle and harmlesse text ; his pen moves forward thus : had you had any just cause of such a jealousie , yet it had been your duty privately to have informed your friends in parliament with it in a brotherly christian way : but to publish these your brain-sick jealousies of them behinde their backs in open pulpit , and then to the whole world in print , of purpose to make your auditors , readers , jealous of them , as those who invaded the incommunicable royalties and priviledges of heaven , &c. — or to defame or draw an odium or contempt upon them , and prepare the people beforehand to oppose or reject whatsoever church-government they shall establish , &c. — is such a transcendent crime and high affront against the parliament , as you are never able to expiate : and is so far from extenieating , that it aggravates your former offences beyond expression . i answer , first , that howsoever by reason of my yeeres , profession , and tenour of studies , it is ( i confesse ) a shame to me , that i should not be as able to teach mr. prynne his duty , as ( it seems ) he is to teach mee mine ; yet glad and willing shall i be to receive instruction , were it from a far meaner hand then mr. prynnes , in any thing that becomes me in a way of dutie to do . but , secondly , whereas the tenour of his instruction to me is this , that it had been my duty privately to have informed my friends in parliament with it in a christian brotherly way ; i perceive hee hath heard of dealing with his friends in a way which well becomes him , as well as it doth mee ; i mean , that which is christian and brotherly . but it seems , hee that teacheth another , doth not alwayes teach himself . for since the mountains were brought forth a and settled b , it may very probably be thought , that there was never any son of adam , whose pen made a broader digression from that christian brotherly way he speaks of , then his own . for look as low as the earth is beneath the heavens ; so far is mr. prynnes way of dealing with his friends , beneath that which is christian and brotherly . thirdly , whereas he conceives it had been my duty to have informed my friends privately of what i preached and printed publikely in the premisses ; i conceive it had been his duty to have understood himself better in the point , before hee had taken the chaire . for first , the greatest part of the things which i either preached or printed in the premisses , concern'd only or chiefly those to whom i preach'd , and the generalitie of men to whom i printed , not the parliament . that it is a terrible and most dreadfull thing for men to be found fighters against god , that it is better and more righteous to obey god then men ; that men in great places , men of great parts , learning , and grace , may possibly erre , and de facto have err'd from time to time , with some few particulars more of like consideration ( which are the substance of what was either preached or printed by mee in the premisses ) are doctrines of equall ( if not of superiour ) concernment to the generalitie of the people , with the parliament . as for that passage in my innocencies triumph , wherein i mention my tender and affectionate jealousie over the parliament , &c. ( the passage so tenter'd , tortur'd and tormented by the evill spirit which so much haunts mr. prynnes pen ) it was occasioned ( indeed necessitated ) by his own most unreasonable , bloody , and importune suggestions , clamours and instigations of authoritie against mee : in regard of which i had no other course but to give a faire and reall account out of what principle and motive ( in reference to the parliament ) i spake such and such things , which were most unchristianly handled and misused by his pen . now then to whisper those things in the eares only of a few , the knowledge whereof concernes so many thousands , is not the duty , but an high prevarication of the duty of a minister of jesus christ . secondly , neither doth he know whether the doctrines so much questioned and quarrelled by him , did , or do so particularly concern my friends in parliament ( by my friends , i suppose hee means my acquaintance : for otherwise i trust the whole number of that honourable assembly are my friends ; at least i know no cause but why they should ) as many other members of this assembly . if so , his ignorance in such a circumstance as this , plainly proves that he hath here prophesied above the analogie or proportion of his faith a ; and consequently , ( even in his own notion of the word b ) hath done it presvmptvovsly . yea , thirdly , how doth he know but that i did prevent the admonition or reproof of his pen , by doing the very duty , for the neglect whereof i am so deeply censured by him . i presume that my acquaintance in the parliament have not communicated unto him all things that have passed between me and them ; therefore his ignorance in this particular also , proves him ( according to the responsall of his own oracle , even now intimated ) to have been somewhat presvmptvovs in his charge of neglect of duty in mee . fourthly , and lastly , there being nothing in the particulars excepted against , either preached or printed by mee , which in the judgement of any indifferent or christian-spirited man , is of any hard or disparaging reflexion either upon any particular person in the honourable assembly of parliament , or upon this assembly it self , there could be nothing in the publishing of them , whether by preaching or printing , any wayes repugnant to any duty lying upon me . that which followes in the late transcribed passage , as that i publish my brain-sick jealousies and suspicions against them behind their backs , of purpose to make my auditors , readers jealous of them , as men who invaded , &c. or to defame or draw an odium or contempt upon them , to prepare the people before-hand to oppose or reject , whatsoever , &c. these things ( i say ) with many others of like calculation , both in this and many other of his writings , are but the reasonlesse presumptions of his exasperated , transported , unchristianized spirit , over-heat ( it may be ) with his nocturnall lucubrations , and in part occasioned by the fuliginous vapors breathing still upon him from his lamp ; and in this regard , i judge them unworthy to have day-light bestowed upon them for their refutation . hee talks of my brain-sick jealousies and suspicions ; but these are more then brain-sick , even brain-dead calumniations and slanders ; ten degrees ( to speak in his own language ) more unchristian , uncharitable , detestable , execrable , then any ( even the worst of ) jealousies or suspicions whatsoever . if he would but authorize mee to reason after the rate of his logique in raising conclusions from his premisses , i could prove ( according to the tenor of such authoritie ) that mr. prynne hath written against the congregationall way , hath represented those that walk in it as extremely derogatory and destructive both unto the parliament and church of englend a , as great disturbers of our publique peace and unity b ; hath slandered them in their spirits , principles , practices , over and over c ; hath presumptuously attempted to infuse such dangerous principles as these into kings , magistrates , and highest civill powers , that they are christs substitutes , vicars , in point of government ( church-government hee speaks of a ) that christ hath delegated his kingly power unto them b , that it may passe as tolerable , that christ is king alone over his churches in matters of faith , c &c. with many others of like undue insinuation ; i could prove ( i say ) by the commission aforesaid , that mr. prynne hath done all these things on purpose to despite the spirit of god , to defame the gospel , to make the wayes of godlinesse and religion hatefull unto the world , to increase divisions , to multiply distractions , to bring a snare and evill day upon the parliament , to expose the whole kingdome to utter ruine and destruction . yea , the truth is , that there is a far more rationall connexion between the premises last mentioned from mr. pryn's pen , and such collections and conclusions as these ; then there is between those premises of mine transcribed by him , and the inferences which he extracts and deduceth from them . a man might think that the gentleman had by this time laid out himself to a sufficient proportion , in depraving both the expressions and intentions of him , that never ( to his best knowledge ) did him the least wrong , nor ever administred the least occasion of provocation ; — sed audi facinus majoris abollae . your last clause ( saith he , yet further , p. . ) and if continued , &c. intimates and speaks , aloud without any straining that the parliament for the present are guilty of dashing their foot against christ the rock : of claiming the most sacred incommunicable royalties and priviledges of heaven , and making themselves equall with god : and that if they persevere in the course they have begun ( to reforme our church , &c. ) it is such an high provocation against the most high , as will kindle a fire in the brest of him whose name is jehovah ; he should have said jealous , ( but that his pen hath contracted an ill habit of stumbling ) which will consume and devoure , &c. could all the malignant and prelaticall party in england lay a greater , wickeder , or more unjust scandall in our parliament then this , or more defame them then by such a false report ? enough to fire the whole kingdome against them , as well as gods wrath , &c. as it followeth in his most unjust and ignoble strain of calumny . but for answer , . doth a wicked or unjust scandall use to fire gods wrath against those upon whom it is cast , and who are the sufferers . though the sin committed be enough to kindle a fire in the brest of him whose name is jealous , against those , whosoever they be , that lie under the guilt of such a commission ; yet is there not the least colour to imagine , that the false or scandalous imputation of it unto any , should have the like operation , in respect of those that are so scandaliz'd . he tells me of my being a meer divine , p. . and a man altogether ignorant in the ancient rights and privileges of our parliament , ( with how little pertinencie or advantage to his cause , shall be taken into consideration in due place . ) and by such passages as this , it seems he is every whit as meer a lawyer as i a divine ( and consequently of no such super-transcendent abilities neither , to discerne and judge of the rights and privileges of parliament , as will be manifested in due time . ) for he that knowes not , that god is no wayes offended with men for having wicked & unjust scandals cast upon them , surely had need to be taught what are the first principles of the oracles of god a . and . whereas in the beginning of the last transcribed passage , he speakes thus , your last clause , and if continued , &c. intimates and speakes loud without any strayning , that , &c. doth hee not seem to rejoyce , as if now he had met with a full feast , and had onely scrambled for all he had gotten and satisfied his hunger with till now ? and doth he not without any strayning , seem to imply , that all my former clauses without straining , would have spake none of those things , which now by his rackes , screws , and engines , he hath made them to speak ? so that here we have confitentem rerum : oh that we had but the participle as well match'd as the adjective , that is ( by interpretation ) emendantem confitentem , and then let both our bookes to the fire together , to purge out the drosse of them b . but . the grand unhappinesse of the man is , that what i speake onely in thesi , or in the generall throughout the whole period or passage , wherein this clause , and if contemned , &c. stands , hee here represents upon the stage of his passion , as if it had been spoken in hypothesi , with particular and precise application to the parliament . the whole period , though it be somewhat long , yet that the reader may not be denied any part of his due in point of satisfaction , i shall transcribe , ab ovo usque ad mala , as it begins at the bottome of page . of my innocencies triumph . i confesse i am in the habituall and standing frame of my heart and spirit , tender and jealous over all the world , and much more over those who are deare unto me , but most of all over those who being deere unto me , are likewise more exposed then others unto the tentation and danger of the sinne ; extreamly jealous and tender ( i say ) i am over such , lest they should touch with any title , or claim the most sacred and incommunicable royalties and privileges of heaven , and so count it no robbery to make themselves equall to god ; knowing most assuredly , that this is a high provocation in the eyes of the most high , and if continued in , will kindle a fire in the breast of him whose name is jealous , and will consume and devoure . i confesse i spake in some passages before this , of the parliament by name ; nor doe i deny all relation between this and the former : but all the relation that can reasonably be imagined between the one and the other , will not amount so much as to a colourable justification of this high-handed and full-mouth'd charge , that the latter speaks aloud without any strayning , that the parliament is guilty of dashing , &c. of claiming , &c. and that if , &c. these are every whit as pure and clean straines of that disposition which acted in the former part of this exposition , as any of those other which have playd before us already . and . suppose the period had been perfectly hypotheticall , and the contents of it applied to the parliament by name , yet it is farre from speaking the dialect that mr. prynne would fain force into the mouth of it . he that shall represent the great evill or danger of a sinne , as suppose of oppression , drunkennesse , adultery , or the like , unto a man , in these or the like terms , know most assuredly , that such a sinne is a most high provocation in the eyes of the most high : and then should adde , and if continued in , will kindle a fire in the breast of him whose name is jealous , &c. doth no wayes suppose , that the person to whom such an addresse or representation is made , is under the present actuall guilt of the perpetration of such a sinne ; but onely demonstrates the dangerous and deadly consequence of it unto him , in case he shall be intangled with the guilt , and continue in the perpetration of it without repentance . therefore mr. prynnes lucubration and collection , that this clause , and if continued , &c. speaks aloud without any strayning , any such parliamentary guilt as he deciphers with his pen , is nocturnall , neither is there so much as a beam of the light of truth in it . . whereas he chargeth that innocently-offending clause of mine , and if continued , &c. both to intimate and speak aloud , and that without any straining , that high misdemeanour lately mentioned , ( little lesse then capitall to him that shall avouch it ) i cannot conceive any regular consistence in the charge . for though one and the same man , who hath a liberty and power both to alter his tone and voyce , and tenour of expression , may one while only intimate , i. whisper , or expresse a thing sparingly : and otherwhile , speake it out aloud , with a full and strong voyce , ( though hardly thus without any straining at all ) yet how one and the same clause in writing , which hath neither principle nor shadow of any variation or change of expression in it , but is still uniforme and standing both in the matter which , and in the manner wherein , it speaketh , should both intimate ( or whisper ) and yet speak aloud too , one and the same thing , is a saying divided in it selfe , and which my understanding knoweth not how to make to stand . but thus , god many times makes both tongues and pens which imagine evill against others , to f●ll upon themselves a . . and lastly , whereas he pretends the forementioned clause , and if continued , &c. guilty of speaking aloud and without any straining , the prenamed enormitie , the truth is , that this charge speaks aloud and without any straining , that mr. prynne loves all devouring words b , whether they be words of sobernesse and truth c , or of another inspiration . is it not very strange , and a miracles fellow ( at least ) if not a miracle , that mr. prynnes hearing should be so predominant in the world , that he alone should heare a loud s●eaking , where all the world besides could not heare the least muttering or whisper ? but when men have brick to make , and want straw , they must bee content to gather stubble in stead of it d . the builders of babel were fain to make use of slime in stead of mortar e . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , were a generation of men in plato's dayes , & the line ( it seems ) is not yet extinct . many other passages there are in this triumphing discourse , wherein the author doth miserable carnifice other words and passages of mine ; but caesars image and superscription may bee seen in a peny f , as well as in a pound . but because the great guerdon and crown for which mr. prynne runnes in this and other his lucubrations against me , is to transform me into a man of a ranc●●ous and disaffected heart against parliaments g , and to couple me with the worst malignants , royalists , cavaliers , yea with the arch-prelate himself a ; before i leave the point in hand , i shall briefly specifie , both what , in what degree i have done , and continue yet doing from opportunitie to opportunitie , to the utmost of my power , for the parliament : and withall solemnly professe in the sight of god and men , that if either mr. prynne , or any other man , can direct or say unto me , how , or what , when , or wherein i may yet doe more for them , or shew and expresse more love or affectionatenesse unto them , then i have already done , and still doe ( upon occasion ) daily ; provided onely that i may see and understand , that what shall be required of me in this kind , doth really and indeed , not in shew and pretence onely , tend to the benefit , honour and safetie of the parliament ; i am ready and willing , and doe by these presents obliege and bind my self , testibus coelo & terrâ , to performe . i have once b and againe c in print , with the utmost ingagement of my weak abilities in that kind , asserted the parliamentary cause against the oxfordian ; yea ( as far as i yet understand ) i was the first amongst all my brethren who serve at the altar , that rose up in this kind , for the parliament : with what exposall of my self to danger , on the one hand , and with what successe and advantage to the cause undertaken by me on the other , many there are that know , and ( i make no question ) are ready upon occasion to declare and testifie . how frequently , yea for many moneths together , when the parliamentarie occasions were most urging and pressing , ( almost ) uninterruptedly , and with what fervency and contestation of spirit , i laboured by preaching to advance the service ; yea with what alacritie and importunity , i continually sollicited and promoted all parliamentarie occasions , suits , and motions recommended by ordinance or otherwise ; was openly testified by a member of that honourable committee before which i was called , pending the complaint against me there . how many young men and others , as faithfull as usefull in the armie as any others of their rank and imployment whatsoever , what by preaching , what by conference and perswasion , were through the blessing of god , armed with courage and resolution by me for the warres , there are both in the citie , and in the armie , more then a few that can informe . nor is it unknowne to thousands , with what contention and striving of spirit , with what earnestnesse of prayer and supplication i have without ceasing in my publick prayers , commended the parliament with all their proceedings and affaires unto god ; nor have my later intercessions for them , either in strength of affection , or in any other desireable respect whatsoever , given place unto my former . without any disparagement to mr. prynnes orisons a be it spoken , i may conjecture i have been both as frequent , and desired to be as fervent in commending that honourable assembly with all their pious endeavours to the divine benediction , as himself . as touching pecuniary expressions of my self to and for the parliament , my affections may ( perhaps ) suffer losse and disadvantage in the thoughts of some , who measure by the arithmeticall , in stead of the geometricall proportion ( by which our saviour measured the poore widdows gift , cast into the treasury b , and every mans expressions of himself in this kind should be measured ) yet i make no question but i can produce speaking papers , ( yea and men too , if need be ) that will abundantly testifie , that i have not been behind many of those who are before me for matter of estate , and who are look'd upon too as men sound-hearted to the parliament . there hath no proposition for advance of moneys , been at any time recommended by the parliament unto the citie , that i know of , but hath been entertained by me with a full proportion of my estate . and look what i have been , and have appeared to be in publick , and in view of many ; the same have i bin also in all my more private intercourses and colloques with men ; strengthning the hands of some which began to be feeble and to hang downe , loosing the bands , resolving the doubts of others , so setting them at libertie to serve the parliament , who before were bound up , and could doe nothing . nor have i quitted my self at this rate in the parliamentary service , in or about the citie onely : but have been as diligent and faithfull an agent for them in the countrey also where i have become , and that not without some considerable successe . i am a foole ( i confesse ) to speak all this of my self : but mr. prynne hath compelled c me . if i be yet defective and wanting in any thing that is my dutie to doe for the parliament , if there be any other service or labour of love wherein i may yet further expresse my self to , and for them ; all the powers of my soule stand ready bent and prest within me to embrace the opportunitie , and to fall on upon the work . if for all this i must be numbred amongst men of rancorous and disaffected hearts against the parliament , i shall congratulate the felicitie of those that are better thought of ; and yet shall think mine own the more princely portion a . mala opinio benè parta delectat . a good conscience is never at the full of her sweetnesse , light , and glorie , but when uprightnesse suffers and is eclipsed : the antiperistasis of outward sufferings , intends the inward vigor and strength of that principle , out of which a good conscience acteth , when shee comforteth . if the affections of men to the parliament , must be compell'd to hold up their hand and be tryed at mr. prynnes barre , and the law ruling there be this , that whosoever will not adore mr. prynnes notion of an ecclesiasticall jurisdiction in the civill magistrate , and submit the cleare and lightsome decisions ( at least in the eye of their judgement & conscience ) of the oracles of god to the spirit that spake in old stories , statutes and records in the darkest times of popery , though they have given never so satisfactory and abundant an account of the goodnesse of their affection in this kind otherwise , must be condemned and cast as venemous malignants and underminers of the undoubted priviledges of parliaments , &c. i confesse , that my affection will not abide the tryall of this fire . neverthelesse , this i solemnly promise and professe , that if mr. prynne or any other , shall reasonably demonstrate unto me truth in either of these positions ; either . in this , that any thing is to be esteemed a priviledge , which is not for the benefit , good , or safety of those that shall injoy it ; or . in this , that such an ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or power , as mr. prynne in all or most of his discourses upon this subject portraictures and sets out , tends in the nature and constitution of it , to the benefit , safety or good of the parliament ; i shall soone be his convert , and cause my present apprehensions in the point to bowe downe at the feet of his . this for the second head propounded . for the third and last , the insufficiencie , or ( to speak the dialect of his own pen ) the impotencie , of those few exceptions which he makes against some few particulars in my innocencies triumph , such as he conceives ( it seems ) to be more soft and tractable under his exceptious pen . first , to salve a sore that will never be perfectly healed , to justifie ( i meane ) his indictment against me , that i did not only or simply undermine the undoubted priviledges of parliament by the very roots , ( this being not a charge , as it seems , worthy the indignation or discontent of mr. prynnes pen ) but that i perpetrated this high misdemeanour presvmptvovsly ; he informes us as matter of high concernment to his cause and honour , that grammarians , lawyers , and divines informe us , that the word , presumptuous , comes from the verb , praesumo : which verb he presumes will accommodate him with one or other of those various significations , which with great care and circumspection that none be wanting , he there musters and enumerates . and because the honour and validitie of this his purgation rests altogether upon such significations or acceptions of his verb , as are most mens mysteries ; therefore in his margent he calls in thomas aquinas , calepine , with some others , for his compurgators . but good sir ; did you either expect or intend , that either the parliament or your other readers , should be so above measure tender either of your reputation or of mine , as that meeting with the word presvmptvovsly in your indictment against me , they would goe and search calepine , thomas aquinas , holy-oake , media-villa , and i know not how many more , to informe themselves in how many senses or significations the word might be taken , lest otherwise they should take you tardy with an unjust crimination , or me with a foule crime ? what you may conceive them likely to doe in this kind out of tendernesse of respect to your reputation , i will not prejudge : but to deale plainly with you , i expect no such quarter from any of your readers , for the preservation of mine . they that have a mind to beleeve you in that point of your charge , ( yea and indeed any other , considering other expressions of yours of the like importance ) are like to take the word presumptuously , according to the vulgar and most familiar signification of it in common parlance , and that which is next at hand : in which signification , it doth nothing lesse then import all that varietie you speak of , but a plaine wilfull ( as your word elsewhere is ) perpetration of an evill ; and as for the three last significations which you fasten upon it , as that it signifies , against authoritie , or lawes , or upon hopes of impunitie ; though i have not the authors by me upon whom you father the proprietie of these significations , to examine the truth of what in this you affirme ; yet am i very strong of faith , that men of learning and judgement ( as most of the authors you cite were ) never assigned any of these three senses or importances , as the proper and legitimate acceptions or significations of the word . when john the baptist told herod ( a man in great authoritie ) to his face , that it was not lawfull for him to have herodias his brother philips wife a , was this done presvmptvovsly , especially in the proper signification of the word ? againe , when shadrach , meshach and abednego refus'd to submit to that decree or law which nebuchadnezzar and his nobles had made , which commanded all to fall downe and worship the golden image which the king had set up b ; and so when daniel trangress'd that law or statute which darius and his nobles had decreed and established according to the law of the medes and persians , which altereth not c , by kneeling upon his knees three times a day , praying unto , and praising god , with his chamber-window open towards jerusalem ; did either of these sin , or doe any thing ( under the interpretation aforesaid ) presvmptvovsly ? mr. prynne himself ( i presume ) dedicated these his lucubrations to the parliament , upon hopes , yea upon more then hopes of impunitie , upon hopes of grace and acceptation : hath he therefore done presvmptvovsly ? i am content in this sense to own the word presvmptvovsly , in my prementioned charge ; and confesse that i did that , which he ( calling it quite out of its name ) calls an undermining of the undoubted priviledges of parliament , &c. presvmptvovsly . i. i did upon hopes , yea and somewhat more then upon hopes of impunitie , upon hopes of acceptation both with god and men . and if mr. prynne would have pleas'd but to have declar'd in his margent or otherwise , that in the aforesaid indictment he meant the word , presvmptvovsly , in this sense , and no other ; he had saved me a double , and himself a single labour , ( if not a double also ) for i should not have lift up so much as a word of exception against it . but let us see a little , how like a man he quits himself in vindicating the truth and equitie of his so-dearly-beloved terme , presvmptvovsly , as it stands , or lies , ( which you will ) in the controverted indictment . his first signification of the verb praesvmo , is to forestall ; and to prove that in this sense of the word , i committed the capitall crime objected presvmptvovsly , he reasons , or rather talks , thus . first you preached and printed those passages of purpose to forestall the parliaments and assemblies pious resolutions , &c. but mr. prynne , there is a rule in the civill law ( and because there is so much reason in it , i conceive your common law complyes with it ) which sounds thus ; non esse , & non appaerere , aequiparantur in jure . how will you doe for witnesse , or evidences competent in law , to make it appeare that i printed and preached the passages you speak of , for such a purpose as you pretend ? can you find the present thoughts or purposes of all particular men in this age , in the ancient records which beare date , from the darkest times of popery ? or hath the omniscient anointed your eyes with any such eye-salve , which makes you able to see into the hearts and reins and spirits of men ? or have i acknowledged either in writing or otherwise , any such intent or purpose as you speak of , in those passages ? or is it beyond the upper region of possibilities , that i should have any other purpose in them , then what you affirme ? when you print , that i printed the passages you mention of purpose to forestall the pious resolutions of the parliament ; doe you print this of pvrpose to forestall the pious inclinations or resolutions of the parliament , not to make more offenders by punishment , then were made such before by delinquencie ? or when you printed , that christ hath delegated his kingly office unto kings , magistrates , and highest civill powers a , did you print it of purpose to make them think that they had as much power and authoritie to make lawes for his churches , as christ himself hath ? such affirmations and right-downe conclusions as these , are worse then the most uncharitable , unchristian , detestable , execrable , groundlesse , fanatique jealousies b . the second signification of the auxiliarie verb , praesvmo , is ( as mr. prynne from his authors , or otherwise , informs us ) to conceive before-hand : and to prove that in this sense i trespassed the trespasse of his complaint , presvmptvovsly , he advanceth with this demonstration . . to establish and support that independent way which you had before-hand without any lawfull warrant conceived , ere the parliament had made choyce of , or setled any church-government for them , &c. but good sir , hath no man a lawfull warrant to consider , inquire after , ( and consequently , to conceive ) what christ hath established in point of church-government , untill the parliament hath made choyce of , or setled such a government ? every man hath warrant enough , yea and that which is more then a warrant , an ingagement by way of dutie lying upon him ; especially divines ( as you call them ) whose particular calling and profession it is to search the scriptures , and to discover the mind of christ there , to conceive before-hand , if they be able , what tenour or forme of church-government is most agreeable to the mind of christ ; and not to suspend their studies , inquiries , conceptions in that kinde , untill men have fram'd their conceptions or apprehensions for them . the parliament had not made choyce of , nor setled any church-government for mr. edwards , when he compos'd and printed his antapologie ? did he therefore presvmptvovsly , to conceive it before-hand , and so peremptorily conclude for it as he hath done ? whether yet they have made choyce of any , or no , i cannot say ; i have no demonstrative grounds to think they have : but certain i am that they as yet have setled none , and so are still at libertie to choose another , in case they have chosen any . hath not mr. prynne then done presvmptvovsly , to conceive a government before-hand , and to print for it , the parliament as yet having chosen none , or however , setled none ? if mr. prynne being a lawyer , had a lawfull warrant to , conceive a church-government before-hand , as he hath done , church-matters being eccentricall to his profession ; much more hath he that is a divine , and neverthelesse because he is a meere one . neither can the five apolog. be said to have done this first , because they rather shew their own practise and desire libertie therin , then peremptorily , ( as some others ) prescribe to others under the notion of schismatiques and troublers of the publick peace , if they be not of their minds in all things , about what they practise and professe , as ( in their judgements ) most agreeable to the truth . a third signification of the verb we wot of , is according to mr. prynnes lexicographie , to usurp or take that upon a man which belongs not to him . and to prove that in this sense also i am a son of presvmption in the transgression voted by mr. prynnes pen , upon me , he riseth up higher then yet in this insulting straine . it was no lesse then high presvmption in you , being a meere divine , and a man altogether ignorant of , or unskilfull in the ancient rights and priviledges of our parliament ( as your writings demonstrate , and your self intimate , p. . ) to undertake and judge of them so peremptorily — when as if you had knowne any thing concerning them , you might have learned this among other things , that divines are no competent judges of parliaments priviledges : that the priviledges , rights and cujiomes of our parliaments , are onely to be judged and determined by the parliament it selfe , not in or by any other inferiour court , &c. in this passage there are some things true , and some things false ; and both the the one and the other make aloud and without straining , against the author , and neither of them against me at all . for , . if i be a man altogether ignorant if the ancient rights and privileges of parliament , how come i to be charged , as a wilfull underminer or violator of them a ? ignorance though it bee good for little , but to cause men to stumble and doe amisse ; yet it is ( for the most part ) a preserver of men from offending wilfully , how ever it selfe may be a wilfull offence . those things ( saith aristotle ) appeare to bee involuntary , b or unwillingly done , which are done either by externall compulsion , or out of ignorance . if i judge mr. prynne ignorant of that government which the scriptures hold forth , i cannot reasonably judge him a wilfull opposer of it . . if the privileges , rights and customes of our parliaments , be onely to be judged and determined by the parliament it selfe , and not in or by any other inferior court , how comes mr. prynne by his authority or commission to judge and determine , that i have wilfully violated , presumptuously undermined the undoubted privileges of parliament , by the very roots ? surely he hath not the power which an inferiour court of judicature hath , much lesse is he the parliament it selfe : and yet he undertakes to judge and determine , & that positively and negatively , ( which i doe not ) not onely the privileges themselves of parliament , but the very roots also of these privileges . if according to his own assertion , he hath no power or authority to judge or determine of the privileges we speak of , why doth he judge and censure me as a presumptuous underminer and violator of these privileges ? can any man reasonably passe a sentence against another as a delinquent in such and such cases , when as the cases themselves are not of his cognizance , nor lawfull for him to judge of ? . if the privileges and rights of our parliament bee onely to bee judged by the parliament it selfe , upon what christian or indeed reasonable foundation , shall we a vouch the taking of the late nationall vow and covenant , wherein with our hands lifted up to the most high god ( among other things ) we sweare , that wee would sincerely , really , and constantly , in our severall vocations , endevour with our estates , and lives , mutually to preserve the rights and privileges of parliament , &c. did we sweare in this most tremend and solemne manner , to preserve those things , not onely that wee know not what they are , but which it is not lawfull for us to enquire after , at least , not to judge and say what they are after our most diligent and faithfull enquiry after them ? if before the taking of this covenant , i had conceived , that whatsoever mr. prynne should please to avouch for privilege of parliament , i should have stood bound by the covenant taken , to maintain with my estate and life , for such ; i should rather have exposed both to the mercy and equity of the parliament by refusing it , then both these and my selfe besides , to the displeasure of god , by such an unchristian , yea unreasonable and unmanlike action . besides , parliament privileges are either fundamentall , generall , and common rights of all nationall bodies , or else peculiar to this state ; and so also they are either such as are by their constant practice commonly declared , or else more reserved for occasional emergencies . the two former are obvious to judge of ; and the latter also apprehensible upon their discovery of them , especially with their grounds , else how could they have been assisted in the defence of them all this time ? . whereas he vilifies , or insults over me as being a meere divine , i confesse i have not much to except against the disparagement ; yet i desire leave to speak these three things . . that if mr. prynne himselfe had been a meere divine , he had chosen the better part : and if he yet knew how to tranforme the skill which hee hath in the law , into a like proportion of sound divinity , he and the church should gain by it ; so great plenty is there of good lawyers , and so few faithfull labourers in gods harvest . . though i pretend to no great knowledge in any other science , but to that which is the glory of all the rest ( divinity i mean ) no nor yet to one halfe of that knowledge in this , which my years and opportunities , had not i been a sonne of folly and infirmities above many , might well have furnished me with ; yet can i not with truth yeeld my selfe so meerly a divine , as not to understand many principles and maximes of reason , besides those which i have learned from the scriptures ; as that every whole is more then any part of it : that no effect can possibly exceed the vertue or efficacy of the totall cause thereof : that one part of any contradiction is verifiable of every thing : that the good of many other circumstances being alike , is to be preferred before the like good of one , or of a few : with many others of affinity with these . by the authority and aid of which alone , without the concurrence or assistance of any principle at all , proper to the science of divinity , i know ( god assisting ) i am able to make good the ground which i have chosen to stand upon in the controversies depending between mr. prynne and me . yea , i should injure mine own ignorance and weaknesse , and censure them too deep , if i should deny but that i know somewhat in other arts and sciences also . . and lastly , if i be a meer divine , i remember i have read some such observation as this for my comfort , that when the streame of endevours is divided , the waters of knowledge run but shallow in a plurality of channels , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . but . whereas he lifts up this iron mace on high , and thinkes to break all in peeces like a potters vessell , that i have either said , or ever shall be able to say , to escape the push of his pike , presumptuously , wherewith he makes at me in the pre-recited charge , that divines are no competent judges of parliaments privileges ; and that therefore it was no lesse then presumption , nay then presumption upon presumption , then high presumption for me being a meer divine , and a man altogether ignorant in the ancient rights and privileges of our parliaments , to undertake to determine and judge of them so peremptorily , &c. i answer . . if i had been altogether ignorant of the rights and privileges of parliament , i was not so capable of ingaging my selfe by that solemne vow , which is now upon me , for the maintaining of them sincerely , really , constantly , &c. for though a man may indefinitely swear to maintain the just rights of such or such a body , though he know them not all distinctly , yet that he may sweare in judgement , it is requisite he be not altogether ignorant of them . so that if mr. prynnes doctrine in this point be true , it is more then time for me to flie from my covenant , as from a serpent , and to abhorre my selfe in dust and ashes before the presence of god , that ever i took it . but blessed be god , my ignorance of the rights and privileges of parliaments , is not such , but that i know many of them : these by name ( questionlesse ) are some of them ; to bee the soveraigne tribunall , and supreme judicatory in the kingdome : to have a legislative power in civill affaires in respect of the whole kingdome : to have a power of discharging or repealing all former lawes and statutes that are found inconvenient for the state and kingdome : to dispose of the militia of the kingdom , for the safety and best advantage thereof : to impose rates and taxes of money for the necessary occasions of the kingdome ; to call even the greatest delinquents in the kingdome to account , and to inflict punishments upon them according to the nature of their crimes : to defend , protect , and encourage , and that with an higher hand then others can doe , those that doe well , and live peaceably , and are serviceable in their callings and imployments to the state . besides many others like unto the starres in the firmament of heaven , which cannot be numbred . . whereas mr. prynne to make light of darknesse , and to cover the shame of his darling ( presumptuously ) with honor , thrusts divines out of doors , as no competent judges of parliaments privileges , he must know from a meer divine ( if there be any place left in him for an addition in that kind , and intus apparens doth not prohibere alienum , with too strong an hand ) that divines in one respect , & that of soveraigne consideration , are judges of a better & more regular competencie of such things , then lawyers are , ( without prejudice to that profession be it spoken ) yea & the meerer divine ( in m. pryns sense ) the more competent judge in this kind , as the meere physitian a more competent judge of medicines then others . there is a double judgement or dijudication of parliament privileges : the one positive or affirmative , the other privative or negative . the positive or affirmative judgement wee speake of , consists in a faculty or ability of discerning what really and indeed are the privileges of parliament : the judgement which i call negative , consists in the like faculty or ability of discerning , what are not . for this is a most certain and undoubted maxime , that nothing that is sinfull , or contrary to the will and word of god , can possibly be a privilege of parliament . the reason whereof is plain : nothing that in the nature and direct tendencie of it , is dishonourable or destructive to a creature , can possibly bee any privilege thereof . now whatsoever is sinfull , and displeasing unto god , is in the nature and direct tendencie of it , dishonourable and destructive to the creature , as the whole tenour of the scriptures ( almost ) yea and the impressions of naturall light and conscience in all men , doe abundantly confirme . ergo . so then the scriptures or word of god being the standard or supreme rule whereby to judge what is sinfull , and consequently destructive to the creature , and what not ; evident it is , that they who reasonably may be presum'd to have the best knowledge and soundest understanding in these , are the most competent judges ( from amongst men ) in all cases and questions , about what is sinfull , and what not . and whether meere lawyers , or meere divines , may with more reason be presum'd to be men of this interest , let either lawyers themselves , or divines , or who ever will , judge . i had not known sinne ( saith the apostle a ) but by the law : he speaks of the law of god , not of any law of men . and another apostle to like purpose : whosoever committeth sinne , transgresseth also the law : for sinne is the transgression of the law b ; speaking as the other did , onely of the law of god . now howsoever mr. prynnes meer divines cannot reasonably bee supposed to have spent so much of their time in traversing and reading over the ancient records of parliamentary transactions , as lawyers have , nor consequently to be so able or ready as they , to tell stories in this kind , of what parliaments formerly have done ; yet when any case of conscience , or question ariseth , about such and such customes or passages in parliaments , ( call them rights , privileges , or what you will ) whether they were lawfull in point of conscience , and justifiable in the sight of god , or no , the meere lawyer with his bookes and records , must stand by , as having neither part nor fellowship in this judicature ; the meere divine is the only competent judge in the case ; yea , and this is confirmed by parliaments themselves , who have decreed that in some courts and cases , clergy-men , as some call them , should fit , and was the custome till very lately in london it selfe , the bishop usually and by right sitting at the sessions of life and death ; yea , and in case of life , if the clergyman saith , legit ut clericus , the law saves the man . and if mr. prynne conceives , that all customes or presidents of parliaments will make privileges of parliament , i conceive the present parliament will abhorre his conception ; many of them being only matter of sorrow , shame and caution , not of privilege or example . so then to deale clearly and unpartially between lawyers and divines , touching their respective abilities and interests for discerning and judging of the customes , rights and privileges ( so called ) of parliaments ; the lawyers interest and facultie ( if he be a master in his profession ) as such ( i mean as a meere lawyer ) is to collect , draw together , and present to view , all , and all manner of parliamentary transactions , passages , statutes , customes , presidents , &c. good and bad , one with another , without distinction , out of their respective records : but the interest and faculty of the divine ( if he be a man worthy his profession ) is to survey this collection presented unto him , to consider whether there be nothing in them contrary to the will and mind of god declared in his word : ( which contrariety dissolves the authority and interest of any statute , custome , president , whatsoever ) and so to separate the vile from the pretious a , that which hath a consistence with the word of god , from that which opposeth and contradicteth it . the entrie series or story of parliamentary passages , is like the polypus head , wherein there are observed to bee {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , many good things , and many bad ; the statutes of moses , and the statutes of omri , the manner of the house of david , and the manner of the house of ahab , are intermixed and wrapped up together there . now alas , with the meere lawyer ( i speak of him , as such , and not as christian or godly ) all is fish that comes to net , all this congregation is holy , even every one of them b ; every statute without exception , if unrepeal'd on earth , though nullified in heaven before it was made , is still valid , and good in law ; every custome , without difference , an undoubted privilege of parliament : every passage a sufficient president for after-imitation , the statutes of omri as good for his turn , and in his eye , as the statutes of moses : the manner of the house of ahab , as laudable as the manner of the house of david , or of the house of god himselfe : as is the good , so is the bad , ( to him ) the statute that curseth , as that which blesseth a land . all this is evident from that voluminous coacervation of old matters , passages , presidents , &c. by mr. prynne himselfe in the former part of this discourse , many of them ( as himselfe intimates c ) fetch'd out of the darkest times of popery , and highest ruff of pope , of prelates : and yet thinkes that these are enough to evict and convince me and all the world besides , that i have not only violated , but denied , oppugned the privileges of parliament in ecclesiasticall affairs d . in the case last presented , except the divine shall come with his fire from heaven , to separate and purge the tinne from the silver , and the drosse from the gold , and be as the mouth of the lord to take away the vile from the pretious a , that enmity unto god , and that unrighteousnesse which cleaveth , and is like to cleave ( notwithstanding all that the meere lawyer is able to doe by way of reliefe ) unto many the lawes and statutes of a state or kingdome , is like to be first an heavie scourge , and rods of scorpions , for the punishment of the state ; and in fine , the utter ruine and destruction of it . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( saith the apostle b ) i. the wisdome of the flesh is death : the reason whereof he gives in the next verse , which is this , because the wisdome of the flesh is enmity against god . so that wheresoever there is any enmity against god , especially if it utters it selfe in any the consultations , acts , or results of the wisdom of the flesh , it disposeth the subject wherein it is sound , whether it be person , family , state , or kingdome , unto death . and whether this enmity against god which wee speake of , sound in some of our lawes & statutes yet unrepeal'd ( if not in more then is generally observed and knowne ) hath not made god an enemy unto us , and strengthened the arm of his displeasure and indignation against us , i leave to divines of sound judgement and conscience , to consider : yea and to such lawyers who have sanctified their profession with the sound knowledge of the word of god and prayer . by what hath been argued in this last passage , evident it is , that the skill , faculty , and interest of the divine , ( yea of the meere divine ) to discerne and judge of the customes , rights , privileges of parliament , is farre more usefull and necessary , then that of the meere lawyer . the reason is plaine ; because there is no manner of doubt or question to be made , but that whatsoever is not sinfull & prohibited by the word of god for them to doe , is an undoubted privilege of parliament , without the authority or contribution of former passages or records : and on the contrary , whatsoever is sinfull and displeasing unto god , can never make privilege , as hath been already argued and proved . now then the faculty or skill of the lawyer , as such , excending it self only to the conquisition and mustering together former transactions , passages and records of parliament , or at most to assist in the literall explanation or interpretation of them ; but matter of sin , and what is lawfull by the law of god , belonging properly to the cogniance of the divine , it is as evident as evidence it self in her highest exaltation can make is , that divines are more usefull , necessary , yea and competent judges ( in the saense declared ) of parliamentary priviledges , then lawyers are : notwithstanding to the last recited passage i answer . and lastly ; that whereas my adversary chargeth me , to have determined and judged of the ancient rights and privileges of our parliaments so peremptorily , &c. that this charge is like all or most of the rest , undue untrue ; i doe not meddle with any ancient right or priviledge of parliament ; i onely argue and work upon the principles of mine own profession , the scriptures and word of god : if these in their naturall and proper inclination , ducture , and tendencie , lead me to any such position or conclusion , which enterfeers with something which mr. prynne will needs call an ancient right or priviledge of parliament , it is meerly accidentall , and which i cannot with my allegeance to heaven , nor otherwise then at the utmost perill of my soule , no nor without a sinfull prevarication with that dutie which i owe to the state i live in , decline . and therefore whereas the th signification which the gentleman finds of the verb praesumo ( to salve the miscarriage of his pen , in the word , presvmptvovsly ) is to doe a thing before a man be lawfully called to it , and hereupon tells me that i had no lawfull calling or warrant from gods word or our lawes to handle the jurisdictions and rights of parliament in my pulpit , &c. and concludes against me without bayle or mainprize , that in this i was presvmptvovs by the scriptures owne definition , pet. . . i answer , . that the apostle peter in the place cited , gives no definition at all , of the word , presumptuous , but onely speaks of a wicked generation of men , who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleannesse , and despise government , presumptuous , self-willed , and they are not afraid to speak evill of dignities . can a man gather any definition of presumption , or of a presumptuous man , from hence ? when the apostle paul confesseth himself to have been a blasphemer , persecutor a , &c. doth he give any definition of either ? i had rather mr. prynne should call me a presumptuous man a thousand times over , then that he should be able once to prove it out of any definition of st peter . the scriptures which mr. prynne still citeth , are acknowledged to be very good ; but he imployeth them against their wills ; and so their goodnesse and his purpose , doe not greet or kisse each other . but . whereas he tells me i had no warrant from gods word , or our lawes to handle the jurisdictions or rights of parliament in my pulpit , &c. i first demand what warrant from gods word or our lawes hath he , thus to calumniate a minister of the gospel , onely for his faithfulnesse to god and men ; to wring , wrest , and wier-draw his words and sayings , as he hath done these ten times ( at least ) in this and his other writings ? i shall have my warrant , and that authentique enough , to shew for what i have done , when his will be to seek for what he hath done , and ( that which is worse ) will no where be found . as for his charge , that i handle the jurisdictions and rights of parliament in my pulpit , &c. it is but a dead corps of an accusation , without any life or soule of truth in it at all ; and may well be reputed free of the company of his other not more foule then false criminations . i never handled any such theame or subject in my pulpit as he talks of , except it were in pleading the justnesse of their cause in the present warres , against the determinations of the oxford schooles . i trust mr. prynne will forgive me this offence . but . if by handling the rights and jurisdictions of parliaments , he means those passages wherein i argued against the lawfulnesse of submitting unto any government from men , except it be agreeable also to the word of god , and mind of christ ; or against any lawfulnesse of power in any civill magistrate or magistracie whatsoever , to make any such lawes or statutes in matters of religion , and which concerne the worship of god , whereunto the servants of god shall stand bound under mulcts and penalties to submit , whether they can with a good conscience submit unto them , or no ; if this be the tenor of my charge , i answer , that i have warrant both from the law of god , and from the laws of the land also , as farre as i understand them , ( and i hope i understand them sufficiently in this ) to doe whatsoever i have herein done . the warrant of a law , ( whether we speak of the law of god , or of the law of men ) for an action , doth not stand onely in a positive or expresse injunction , or declaration in the law , that such or such an action , either must , or may be done : but also in the totall silence of the law , ( directly and by evident consequence ) as touching any restraint or prohibition of the action . it is true , the totall silence of humane lawes concerning many actions , doth not simply and absolutely warrant them for lawfull or good , ( though this be true concerning the divine law ) but it warrants them sufficiently against any crime imputable , against any censure or punishment infligible by the authoritie of such lawes . where no law is ( saith the apostle a ) there is no transgression . so then , if amongst all the laws and statutes of the land , there be no one law or statute to be found , which prohibiteth or restraineth a minister of the gospel from declaring and making known the whole counsell of god b unto men , ( of which wretched import i know none , yea i am securely confident that there is none ) then have i warrant sufficient , in respect of our laws , both to preach and print whatsoever i have done either in the one or in the other , in the passages aforesaid : because in them i have neither preached nor printed any thing , but what is part of the counsell of god , as i have abundantly manifested & made good , in severall tracts , especially in that which was last published c , against all opposition and counter-reasonings whatsoever . as for the word of god , i have not onely a warrant from thence , to doe all that i did in the premises , but ( that which is more then a warrant , in the sense specified ) precept upon precept , injunction upon injunction , command upon command : yea i stand here most deeply and dreadfully charged , as i will answer it at the great and terrible day , when the lord jesus christ shall be revealed from heaven , with his mightie angels , in flaming fire , taking vengeance on them that know not god , and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ d , to doe that which i did in the passages excepted against . i charge thee therefore ( saith the apostle to timothy , a minister of the gospel ) before god and the lord jesus christ , who shall judge the quick and dead at his appearing and his kingdome : preach the word : be instant , in season , out of season ; reprove , rebuke , exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine . for e , &c. peruse the other scriptures presented unto you in the margent f ; behold , they lift up their voyces together , calling , crying out amaine for all diligence , faithfulnesse , zeale , undauntednesse of courage and resolution in those who are entrusted with that great dispensation of the mind and counsell of god in the behalf of the world , in the discharge of this most high and honourable trust committed unto them . and therefore for mr. prynne to charge me with boldnesse , daringnesse , audaciousnesse , &c. for sticking to , standing by , and maintaining what i have said and done out of faithfulnesse both unto god and men , and according to the true tenor and intent of my commission from heaven ; is as childish and weak , as if i should charge him with boldnesse , daringnesse , audaciousnesse , for eating his bread , or pleading the righteous cause of his honest client . he mistakes his mark day and way , if he thinks either to ( rayle i might truely say , or ) threaten me out of the way and course of my dutie , by his great words . through christ strengthning me , it is as easie for me to beare all his unjust and hard sayings , as it is for him to speak them : to stand under , and carry the greatest burthen of infamie and reproach , as it is for him to lay it on ; yea to suffer the worst and hardest of sufferings , as it is for him to procure them . he that cannot {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and that at any rate whatsoever , will never make good souldier indeed for jesus christ . his pen ( i hope ) you see , hath not prospered hitherto , in pleading the cause of his client , presumptuously : he cannot finde any one signification of the word , that will stick or fasten . the fift and last signification , which he insists upon , is this . the verb ye wot of , praesvmo , yet further signifies , to doe a thing boldly , confidently , or rashly , without good grounds , &c. to help himself at the dead lift he is now at , by this signification of his verb , he sets on thus ; after you were questioned before a committee of parliament for those very passages in your first sermon , as exceeding scandalous and derogatory to the members and privileges of parliament , yet you in a daring manner , whilst you were under examination , audaciously preached over the same againe for substance in your pulpit on a solemne fast day , and published them with additions in no lesse then two printed books : yea since your very censure by the committee for them , you have in a higher straine then ever gone on to justifie them in print once more , in your innocencies triumph ( like an incorrigible delinquent ) wherein you slander the parliament more then before , &c. where before i answer , observe . that the signification here insisted upon is , lower then the charge ; it signifies to doe boldly , &c. but his charge is , that i did it presumptuously . . in this great muster-roll of the severall significations of his verb praesumo , he passes over , and forgets to list the common or generall acceptation of the word , as it is usually taken amongst us , and as any author that writes english uses to be understood ; viz. for a wilfull and high-handed commission of some wicked thing . but for answer ; . what logick is there in all this rhetorick to prove , that what i did in the passages under contest , i did rashly or without good grounds ? here is nothing so much as in pretence ( in reality no where else ) to disable those grounds upon which those passages stand . . how unkindly he deales with the truth , in affirming , . that i preached over the same again for substance or a solemne fast day . . that i published them with additions in no lesse then two printed books , whilst i was under examination ; hath been already presented to view towards the beginning of this discourse . and here wee have yet more ( besides these ) ejusdem farinae , ( seu potius , furfaris ) as . that the passages in my first sermon were exceeding scandalous , and derogatory to the members and privileges of parliament : there hath been nothing yet proved , nor ( i beleeve ) ever will or can be proved , that there was any thing in this sermon , not only not exceeding scandalous and derogatory , &c. but not scandalous or derogatory in the least or lightest manner or degree either to any member , or any privilege of parliament whatsoever . . that since my very censure by the committee for them , i have gone on to justifie them in an higher strain then ever , in my innocencies triumph . mr. prynne i see is no astronomer , to take the altitude or elevation of a strain in rhetorick ; if hee were , he would be ashamed of this calculation , that in my innocencies triumph i justifie my passages in a higher straine then ever . whosoever reads this little peece , cannot lightly but see and confesse , that all along i creep as neere the ground as any man ( lightly ) can goe . . that in my said innocencies triumph i slander the parliament more then before . here wee have untruth upon untruth , position upon supposition , and both vanity . for this assertion . supposeth , that i had slandered the parliament before , ( wherein i am certain mr. prynne slanders me : ) and . i affirmeth , that i slander it a second time more then i did before . if he had contented himself only to have said , that in my innocencies triumph i slander the parliament as much as i did before , he had spoke a kind of truth , though of very slender importance . . that i was censured by the committee for the passages in my sermon . if by censured he means sequestred ( as by the tenor of all he writes concerning me in this discourse , it should seem he doth ) granting the truth of the act or censure it selfe ( which yet to me is very questionable , upon the reasons formerly mentioned ) yet i cannot beleeve but that mr. prynnes pen faulters in assigning the grounds or reasons of the censure . it will not enter into me , to conceive a thought so dishonorable to that honorable committee , as that they should suspend or sequester a minister of jesus christ , who hath in all things from the first to the last , approved himselfe faithfull unto them , and to that honorable cause wherein they are ingaged , for preaching his judgement and conscience in a point of doctrine , having such substantiall and weighty grounds both from the scriptures themselves , and otherwise , ( which i then in part accounted unto them , and am still ready to perfect the account , if called to it ) to conceive and judge is none other but the very truth of god . . and lastly , whereas he brands me for an incorrigible delinquent , and elswhere for one impenitent after censure a . i answer and confesse , . that i am incorrigible indeed , by a crooked rule , as the apostles themselves were , when being charged and commanded by a whole councell , not to speak at all , or teach in the name of jesus , they notwithstanding professed , that they could not but speak the things which they had seen and heard b . rectitude is alwayes unrectifiable , i. incorrigible : and . i answer and confesse yet further , that i am impenitent also in respect of that wherein i know no unrighteousnes , or sin . the truth is , i am conscious to my self of too many sinnes and failings in my selfe , to cast away my repentance upon such things as need it not if i can find repentance for all my finnes , i shall leave all my other actions to be lamented and mourned over by the world . if mr. prynne will indict me for such incorrigiblenesse and impenitency as these , so be it : i know the great judge of heaven and earth will acquit me . and thus you see that mr. pryn still stands as a man convicted of an unrighteous charge in the word presumptuously ; haeret lateri lathalis arundo : the arrow sticks still in his sides , and all his wringling and wresting , and pulling , cannot get it out . his last charge and contest against me in this peece , is , that the authors which i cite to justifie my selfe , are miserably wrested and mistaken for the most part . the common saying is , that it 's ill halting before a creeple ; the proverb seems to import some dexterousness of faculty in him that halts continually , to take those tardy who onely counterfeit , and doe that by way of designe , which himselfe doth out of necessitie . the truth is , though mr. prynne may reasonably be conceived to have a more sagacious facultie then other men , of taking those with the very manner , who wrest authors and mistake their meaning , as being a man so familiarly exercised in the practise himself ( i speak of his writings against my self ) yet either his skill fails him , or his will stands too fast by him , in the sentence pronounced against me in this kind ; as will appear presently . in the mean while , i cannot but take notice of that expression , mistaken for the most part , as an expression of the greatest caution and care , that ( to my best remembrance ) i have met with in all that he hath written against me . it is very rare to find any of his uncharitable assertions concerning me , at all bridled or corrected with any allay of any diminutive , lenitive , limitation or restraint : but the saying ( i remember ) is , that he goes farre , that never returns . but let us hearken unto his complaint of the behalf of those authors , whom he so bewaileth , as being miserably wrested by me . the first is his friend mr. edwards , from whose unaunswerable a piece of presbyterie , i cite this passage , the parliament interposeth no authority to determine , what government shall be ; and gather upon it thus ; therefore his opinion appears to be ( not , as mr. prynne , whose pen i see loves to play at small game in mis-reports , rather then sit out , recites it soon after ; therefore his opinion is ) either that the parliament hath no authoritie , or at least intends not to make use of it , it determining a government . how miserably this good well-meaning author is by me wrested , he declares thus : it was written onely with reference to the present time , the parliament having at that time when he writ ( during the assemblies debate and consultation ) interposed no authority is determine what government shall be . but good sir , though you ( it may be ) hit the meaning of the author better then i , having and the opportunity to consult with him about it , which i have not ; yet i am sure i hit the meaning of his words better then you . if men and their words will be of two different minds and meanings , i confesse their meanings may very easily be mistaken , not by me onely , but by those that are wiser , and farre more able then i to understand stand the force and proper import of words . and yet now i come upon this occasion to review my expression , i find it more cautions and warie , then i can remember my self to have been in the calculation or inditing of it ; and altogether free even from that cavilling and shifting exception , which is here made against it . for i do not absolutely say or conclude , that his opinion was or is either so or so , ( as mr. prynne , pro more suo , chargeth me to do ) but onely that it appears to be either the one or the other : and i think there is scarce any that understands english , from the child that hath new learn'd his primer , to the greatest master in the language , but will acknowledge an appearance at least of one or other of those opinions in the words . and how anomalous and sharking that interpretation of the words , which mr. prynne would force upon them , is , will best appear by comparing the words and interpretation with other expressions of the same grammaticall character and construction both in the same author , and in others . when ( p. . of his antapologie ) he cites this saying out of zanchie ; that which doth not disturbe the publique peace — the magistrate proceedeth not against ; doth he imagine that the meaning of this author was to confine that non-proceeding of the magistrate he speaks of , to the particular and precise time of his writing ; as if then indeed he did not so proceed , but at all other times he did . so again when himself ( p. . of the same tract ) saith thus , the power of the magistrate by which he punisheth sin , doth not subserve to the kingdom of christ the mediator ; can any reasonable man think that his meaning onely should be , that this power of the magistrate which he speaks of , doth not thus subserve whilest he is in speaking or writing it ; but that afterwards it may , or doth subserve in such a kind ? apagè nugas ! when the evangelist john , speaking of christ , saith thus : this was the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world b ; is his meaning that christ performed that act of grace he speaks of , enlightened men coming into the world , onely whilest he was writing his gospel , and that afterwards he suspended it ? in such constructions of speech as this , the common rule of divines ( touching matter of interpretation ) is , that verbum praesentis notat actum continuum seu consuetum : i. a verb of the present tense noteth a continued or still accustomed act . so that whilest mr. prynne goes about to prove , that i miserably wrest his author , how favourably soever he may deal with his author in comparison of my dealing with him , certain i am that he miserably wrests his words , with which i deal as favourably , as their genuine and native signification , according to all rules both of grammaticall and rhetoricall construction will bear . as for that reason which mr. prynne alledgeth , to countenance the sense which he puts upon the words now contested about , to the disparagement of mine , viz. that be maintains point-blank against me throughout his treatise a legislative and coercive power in parliaments ; and that the inference which i draw from the said words is quite contrarie to the next ensuing words and pages ; i answer , . ( to the former part of the reason ) that it is most untrue : he doth not maintain point-blank against me throughout his treatise a legislative and coercive power in parliaments and civill magistrates . i every where acknowledge and assert a civill legislative power in both ; therefore mr. edwards maintaining such a power in them , maintains nothing point-blank against me . and whether he maintains a spirituall or ecclesiasticall legislative power in them , especially throughout his treatise , let this passage be witnesse between me and my adversarie : there is nothing more common in the writings of the learned and orthodox , then to shew that the civill power and government of the magistrate , and the ecclesiasticall government of the church , are to genere disjoyned : and thereupon the power of the magistrate by which he deals with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people , it in the nature and specificall reason distinct from ecclesiasticall discipline a . i know not what artificiall construction and meaning mr. prynne may possibly find out for these words ; but surely he that hath not affirm'd the contrarie , as mr. prynne very inconsiderately ( that i say not presumptuously ) hath done , will not affirm , that mr. edw. in this passage maintains an ecclesiasticall legislative power in parliaments or civill magistrates , but the contrary ; yea and affirms this to be the common judgement of men learned and orthodox . so again when he affirms , p. . that it is their duty ( speaking of the parliament ) by their power and authority to bind men to the decrees of the assembly , he doth not ( doubtlesse ) maintain an ecclesiasticall legislative power in the parliament : for they that have such a power , cannot be bound in dutie to own the laws or decrees of others , much lesse to bind others to subjection to them . i omit many other passages in this book of like importance . the truth is , that mr. prynnes opinion concerning an ecclesiasticall spirituall jurisdiction in the civill magistrate , which yet is his grand notion in all that he hath written upon the subject of presbyterie , overthrows the main grounds and principall foundations upon which the doctrine of presbyterie is built by all her ablest and most skilfull workmen . insomuch that i wonder not a little , that the masters of that way and judgement , have not appeared at another manner of rate then yet they have done , for the vindication of their principles against him that hath made so sore a breach upon them , and laid their honour in the dust . somewhat i know some of them have done in this kind : but the prophet elisha reproved the king of israel , for smiting thrice onely upon the ground , and then ceasing , telling him that he should have smitten five or six times . . to the latter part of the reason , i answer and confesse , that the inference i draw from the words mentioned , may very possibly be quite contrarie to the next ensuing words and pages , and yet the sense of them no wayes wrested , nor mistaken by me ; because it is familiar in the discourse , for the author to contradict himself , as well as other men ; according to one of the ingredients in that most true and happie character of the discourse , given by a woman , who describes it to be wrangling-insinuating-contradictory-revengefull storie b . and the truth is , that in the eye of an unpartiall and disengaged reader , there is scarce any passage or period throughout the whole discourse but may be commodiously enough reduced under one of these . heads . and therefore whereas mr. prynne gives this elogium of it , that it is in truth unanswerable c ; i confesse that unanswerable it is in severall respects and sundrie wayes . first , it is unanswerable to that esteeme which my self with many others had of the author formerly . secondly , unanswerable it is to that opinion , which he would have the world conceive of his parts and learning , and in speciall manner of his abilities to deal in the particular controversie . thirdly , it is unanswerable to his profession as he is a christian . fourthly , much more unanswerable is it to his calling , as he is a minister of jesus christ and of the gospel : and fifthly ( and lastly ) most unanswerable it is to those frequent , solemn and large professions which he makes both in his epistle and elsewhere , of his love to the apologists , and candor and fairnesse in writing . but for any such unanswerablenesse as mr. prynne intends , the one part of it will not indure that such a thing should be spoken of the other ; there being enough in the discourse it self to answer whatsoever is to be found in it , of any materiall consideration against the congregationall way ; as will in time convenient be made manifest in the sight of the sun , god not preventing , by more then an ordinarie ( or at least expected ) hand . and whereas mr. prynne glorieth ( and that twice over at least , for failing ) that it hath not been hitherto answered by the independents d ; i answer three things : first , that neither hath mris katharine chidleys answer to mr. edwards his reasons against independencie and toleration , been yet replyed unto or answered , either by mr. edwards himself , or any other of his partie ; notwithstanding the said answer be but a small piece in comparison of the antapologie : and besides hath been some yeers longer abroad , then this . besides this , there are many other tractates and discourses extant ( and so have been a long time ) in defence of the congregationall way , which as yet have not been so much as attempted by any classique author whatsoever . a particular of some of these you may see , p. . of my innocencie and truth triumphing together , in the margent . as for that which a. s. or ( in words at large ) adam steuart hath lift up his pen to do against m. s. if men will needs vote it for an answer , an answer ( so called ) let it be : * but ( doubtlesse ) he that wants either will or skill to distinguish between the persons and the distempers of men , is in an ill capacitie ( or incapacitie rather ) of framing any sober answer to a sober discourse . secondly , mr. edwards himself , the smallnesse of the content of the apologeticall narration considered , took not a whit lesse time to give answer to it , then hath yet been taken by the independents to answer the antapologie . but thirdly ( and lastly ) if mr. prynne knew and considered , who it was that hath hindered the independents , and that once and again from answering it as yet , viz. he that sometimes hindred pauls coming to the thessalonians e , though ( in mr. edwards apprehension ) he both hastened and furthered the coming back of the apologists into england f ; he had little or no cause to glorie in that priviledge . but quod defertur , non anfectur : quicquid sub terrâ est in apricum proferet aetas . having ( as you have heard ) befriended mr. edwards ( his fellow-labourer in the presbyterian cause ) with the best accommodation he could to make one piece of him hang to another ( but alas , who is able to comprimize between fire and water ? ) he proceeds and tels me behind my back , ( and yet with an intent i presume that all the world should take notice of it ) that my passages out of mr. hayward , bishop jewel , mr. fox , mr. calvin , jacobus acontius , &c. make nothing at all against the legislative authority of parliaments in matters of religion and church government , and have no affinity with my passages , words , most of them propugning the very ecclesiasticall power of parliaments , which i oppugne : and yet in the very next words adds ; that indeed some of their words seem to diminish the coercive power of magistrates , and enforcing of mens consciences in matters of religion ; as if i ever oppugned or denied any other authority or power in magistrates , then this . if he will please but to peruse my innocencies triumph , pag. . and my innocency and truth triumphing together , pag. . . . with severall other passages in these and other my writings , he will ( or at least very easily , may ) see that i oppugne , deny no other authority , power in parliaments , civill magistrates , but onely that which is enforcing of mens consciences in matters of religion . whereas he promiseth or undertakes that he shall in due place answer these words of theirs , which ( as he saith ) seem to diminish the coercive power of magistrates in matters of religion , and manifest how i abuse the authors herein as well as mr. edwards ; my answer onely is , that he may indeed soon answer them after that rate of answering , at which he hath answered any thing of mine hitherto , and he may shew how ( i. say that ) i abuse them ; and without writing or speaking , as well as by either , manifest that i abuse their authors herein , as well as i do mr. edwards . but for this last particular , i am willing to save him the labour and pains of writing for the manifestation of it . for i here freely confesse , that i have abused these authors in what he speaks of , just as i have abused mr. edwards : and both of them just as much as amounts to no abuse at all . i wonder by what art or way the gentleman means to go to work , to prove that i have miserably wrested , or abused the authors he here speaks of , or their words , when as i have put no construction at all or interpretation upon their words , nor drawn any inference or deduction from them , but onely transcribed them with as much diligence and faithfulnesse as i could , and presented them cleerly as they stand in their respective authors . if his meaning be , that i have miserably wrested and abused them by my quotation of them , as subservient to my cause or purpose , ( a deed of folly which himself commits with the holy scriptures themselves many a time and often ) my answer is , that were this assertion true , that they are not subservient to my cause or purpose , yet my recourse unto them , for aid to my purpose , were no miserable wresting or abusing of them . our saviour being an hungry , did not abuse the fig-tree by repairing to it , though there prov'd nothing upon it for his purpose . nor should mr. prynne abuse a tavern by going into it to drink a cup of wine that pleaseth him , though he shold be disappointed in his expectation when he comes there . nay in this case would he not rather think ( and that much more reasonably of the two ) that the taverne had abused him , then he it . in like manner , if those authors and sayings which i have produced , and which mr. prynne speaks of , have no affinity with my passages and purpose , i may much more truly and reasonably say that they have abused me , then mr. prynne can either say or ever prove , that i have abused them . for the truth is , if they do fall me , or refuse to stand by me in the defence of those passages spoken of when mr. prynne hath done his worst to them , they are the greatest dissemblers that ever wore the livery of paper and inke . never were there sentences or sayings that more fully and freely complied with any mans notions whatsoever in terms and words , then farre the greatest part of these do with my passages and purpose . if mr. prynne can dissolve or abrogate the authoritie of grammar rules , and destroy the naturall and proper signification of words , then may i have some cause to fear , that he may possibly evict me to be a miserable wrester and abuser of authors and their sayings . but if words be able to defend themselves , and make good the possession of their known significations and rules of construction , their both ancient and moderne interest in the understandings of men , against the authority or violence of mr. prynnes pen ; i defie all his interminations and threatnings of manifesting me either a miserable wrester or abuser of my authors . the last parcell of his high contest against me in this discourse , is , that i pervert the meaning of the divines of scotland , in one , or more , or i know not , he knows not , how many or how few , of those passages which i cite from them ; whereas i meddle not little or much with any sense or meaning of any of them ; but onely barely tender them unto the reader , leaving it free unto him to judge of the sense and meaning of them , and whether they consort with my apprehensions , or no . and though he be doubtfull of that interpretation or meaning which himself ( however ) adventures to put upon them ( as there is reason more then enough , why he should ) delivering himself with this sub-modest caution , if i mistake not ; yet am i rated and chidden at no lower rate , then this : you may therefore blush at this ( i wonder , which ) your perverting of their meaning , as if they held , that the parliaments of england or scotland had no power to make ecclestasticall laws for religion and church government . therefore may i blush : wherefore ? what ? because mr. prynne hath put such a sense and interpretation upon the passages in hand , of which he knows not ( it seems ) what to make , but suspects a mistake in it ? blush in this respect i confesse i may : but what cause have i to blush , at my perverting of their meaning , when as . i do not interpose to put any meaning ( i mean any particular or speciall meaning ) upon any of them . . why should i blush upon mr. prynnes injunction , at any meaning which i put upon them , when as that very meaning which himself puts upon them , by way of confutation and disparagement of that which he pretends to be mine , is by himself little lesse then suspected for a mistake ? the tax of blushing which mr. prynne imposeth upon me , should in reason be rather levied upon the estate of his own modestie , who by his own confession runs the hazard of perverting the meaning of those passages under debate , whereas i never came so neere the crime of such a perversion , as to ingage my self in any interpretation of them at all . but if you will please to heare his interpretation , and compare it diligently with his text ( the passages cited by me from the divines of scotland ) you may very fairly translate mr. prynnes , if i mistake not , into , certainly , mr. prynne mistakes . i answer , ( saith he ) . that their onely meaning ( if i mistake not ) in these passages , is , that the prince or chiefe civill magistrate of himselfe , without a parliament , or without the assistance and consent of his nobles , commons , clergie , cannot legally make any ecclesiasticall lawes to oblige his people . mark this saying well ; and see how like it looks to the genuine interpretation , sense or import of these ( and the like ) ensuing sentences . all men , as well magistrates , as inferiors , ought to be subject to the judgement of the nationall assembly in ecclesiasticall causes without any reclamation or appellation to any judge , civill or ecclesiasticall , within the realme . againe ; it belongeth to the synod ( the clergie having the chiefe place therein to give direction and advice ) not to receive and approve the definition of the prince in things which concerne the worship of god , but it self to define and determine what orders and customes are fittest to be observed , &c. we see here in the text , that the chiefe place , yea the sole power ( for what other sense can be put upon those words , it belongeth to the synod it self to define and determine ) of defining and determining orders and customes in things which concerne the worship of god , is ascribed unto the synod , ( wherein also the direction of the clergie ought to be predominant ) not onely without the definition of the prince , or chiefe civill magistrate , but with rejection of his definition : not to receive or approve the definition of the prince ( saith this text . ) whereas in mr. prynnes interpretation , the prince or chiefe civill magistrate ( as we heard ) hath the preheminence and precedencie in all such definitions and determinations assigned unto him ; and next to him , the nobles , and next to them the commons , ( of neither of which ne {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} quidem in the text ) are interessed in the same ; and the clergie , or synod , which are made the head , and have the chiefe place , if not the sole power , about such definitions and determinations in the text , are in the interpretation made the taile , and compelled to come behind all the rest , as a partie borne out of due time , or at least in the lowest influence of power , for any such interest . if mr. prynne be not ( at the softest ) mistaken in this interpretation , the sense and meaning of those words , abraham begat isaac a , may very possibly be this , that judas went and hung himself b . judge , reader , between me and my adversary , who hath more cause to blush , and who is the more miserable wrester of words , and perverter of meanings . and whether there be not an ayre or gentle breathing of a contradiction in this period which he subjoynes , within it self , and in one part of it to the premised interpretation , i desire the reader attentively to consider . but that the king ( saith he ) or supreame temporall magistrates , assisted by a parliament and orthodox divines , may not make binding ecclesiasticall lawes , or , that their or our parliaments have not a reall legislative power in any matter ecclestiastique ( the onely point controversed ) is directly contrary both to the constant doctrine and practise of our brethren and their church , &c. i beleeve that neither our brethren , nor their church , will conne mr. prynne thanks for this his vindication and plea for them : but however , i shall not speak in his cast , nor forestall his market . onely i desire to know of him , if their , and our parliaments have a reall legislative power in matters ecclesiastique ( as he affirms in the latter part of the sentence ) why he requires an assistance of orthodox divines in the former part of it , to make binding ecclesiasticall lawes . they that have a reall legislative power in , or within themselves ; need no forinsecall assistance of others , to make their laws binding , though they may need forinsecal advice for the better constitution of them , as in laws about any particular trade ; yea he had given this judgement in the case a little before ( as we heard ) that the prince or chiefe civill magistrate cannot legally make any ecclesiasticall lawes to oblige his people , not onely not without a parliament , but not without his clergie also . doth he not here interesse the clergie every whit as farre , and as deep in the very essence or substance of the legislative power to make binding ecclesiasticall lawes for the people , as he doth the parliament it self ? and whereas in the passage last recited , he affirms the onely point in controversie to be , whether our parliaments have not a reall legislative power in any matters ecclesiastique ; i wonder why he storms me and my writings with so much indignation , pag. , . &c. for printing passages onely charged by him as being against the ecclesiasticall jurisdiction of parliaments a ; which likewise is his usuall expression elsewhere . doth he apprehend no difference at all , between an ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , power , authoritie ; and a legislative power in or about ecclestiasticall matters , or things ? mr. edwards , if he will vouchsafe to learne of him , will teach him a wide difference ; who in many places gives and grants unto the magistrate a power and authoritie about ecclesiasticall causes , and businesses b of many kinds , ( though not of any c , as mr. prynne bountie extendeth ) but no where ( to my remembrance ) grants any ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or power to him : yea p. . of his antapologie , he interrogates his apologists , whether there doth not reside in the church all ecclesiasticall power absolutely necessary to the building up of the kingdome of christ , and salvation of men , even when the magistrate is not of the church ? the import of which interrogation agrees well with that assertion of the same author ; and tract p. . that the civill power and government of the magistrate , and the ecclesiasticall government of the church , are toto genere disjoyned ; and thereupon the power of the civill magistrate , by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people , is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from ecclesiasticall discipline . if there be an ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or legislative power in civill magistrates , parliaments , to make ecclesiasticall binding laws ; why may not the exercise of this power in the administration or execution of these lawes , be called ecclesiasticall discipline or government ? yea , why not rather ecclesiasticall , then civill ? so that mr. prynne confounding an ecclesiasticall power , with a power about ecclesiasticall things , plainly shews that he is not perfectly initiated in the mysterie of presbyterie : and did not his writings more accommodate that cause and partie by the weight of their authoritie , and height of language , and confidence , together with unparalleld bitternesse against his opposites , then by their worth in strength of reason , i beleeve they would hardly think them worthy to be numbred amongst their benefactors . but notwithstanding all that mr. prynne hath done or said to , or against me , or my innocencies triumph , in particular ; in the , , , , , , pages of this his discourse , yet his spes gregis , the strength of his hope that he hath done sufficient execution upon me , rests onely upon his former sections ; however the question of many concerning them , is , cui bono ? he tells me , that my own conscience and judgement cannot but informe me , that he hath written enough in the former sections to convince me and all the world besides , that i have not onely violated , but denyed , oppugned those priviledges of parliament in ecclesiasticall affaires , which our own parliaments in all ages , and parliamentary assemblies in all other kingdomes have unquestionably exercised , &c. i answer , . i confesse that in the former sections he hath written enough , quantitativè , to convince any reasonable man ( if not all the world ) of any errour or mistake whatsoever : but much too little qualitativè , to convince either me , or any reasonable man , that i have violated , or oppugned any priviledge of parliament ; i have farre more reason to conceive and hope , that in this and my last-published discourse , i have written enough both wayes to convince both him and all the world , that i have not violated or oppugned any priviledge of parliament , truly , or with the consent of heaven , so called . if he intends to conclude , that therefore i have violated , oppugned the privileges of parliament , because i have argued against some positions or opinions , which mr. prynne , with some others , are pleased to call priviledges of parliament ; the logician , who is a man of reason , will answer for me , that à terminis diminuentibus non sequitur argumentatio . it doth not follow , that a piece of metall or coyne is therefore gold , because it is counterfeit gold ; nor that mr. prynnes great grandfather is a man , because he is a dead man . if he can , or shall fairly demonstrate unto me ( though in a far lesse content of words , then his three former sections amount unto ) that any act , practise , or exercise , either by continuance or succession of time , or by frequencie of repetition , or customarinesse of reiteration , by connivencie or want of opposition from men , must needs change the nature and kind of it , and of sinfull become lawfull , he shall by such a demonstration as this , put life into his former sections , and render them potent for that conviction which he expects from them ; but till this be done , that great bulk and body of things done in the dark , and time out of minde , will partake of that infirmitie which the author himself acknowledgeth as cleaving to the discourse , i meane , impotencie a ; and can with no tolerable pretence of reason or equitie , demand that interest in the judgements , consciences , understandings of men , which he challengeth ( it seems ) on their behalfe . it is as poore and low a designe , onely by alledging the examples , opinions , or judgements of men , to attempt the conviction of him that builds his opinion upon the scriptures & word of god , yea though he builds besides his foundation ; as it would be in a man to carry a sack of chaffe to the market , hoping to bring home a like quantitie of wheat for it , without giving any other price . yea to alledge and cite the scriptures themselves , though in never such an abundance , without close arguing and binding them to our cause ; is a means of very small hope , whereby to prevaile or doe good upon such a man who holds his opinion , not barely or simply upon a supposall of scripture-authoritie for it , but upon scripture thoroughly debated , and by principles of sound reason and naturall deductions , brought home unto his judgement and cause . againe , . in all that great body of premisses contained in all the former sections he speaks of , there is not one word , syllable , letter , or tittle to prove that maine ingredient in his conclusion , unquestionably exercised . logicians justly reject and exauthorize all such conclusions , which swell above the line of their premisses . by all the tables and donaries presented unto neptune by those that in shipwracks escaped with their lives , it could not be knowne , who , or how many they were , that were drowned . . nor is there any whit more in any , in all the said sections or premisses , that reacheth home , or indeed comes neere , to that specialtie in the conclusion , in all ages . evanders mother lived many ages agone ; yet the mother of abel had the precedencie of her by many generations . therefore surely all the world will never accept of the conclusion so insufficiently and lamely prov'd . . and lastly , whereas mr. prynne tells me , that if i now make not good my promise , few or none will ever credit me hereafter ; i should be very glad to meet with my condition , that so i might performe my obligation . but in the meane time , whether any or none will credit me hereafter ; i know not well how i , or any other should credit him for the present , as touching the authentiqueness and truth of those citations and transcriptions , upon which the principall weight of that conclusion depends , whereof he expects conviction both from me , and all the world to boote . is it lightly possible for any man to refraine jealousie in this kind , that doth but consider how oft his pen hath dash'd against the rock of truth , in representing me , my opinions and sayings , ( yea , i can say further , affections , intentions ) upon the open theatre of the world , where any man that will , may see his nakednesse in this kinde ? is boldnesse in the sun , like to prove modestiē in the shade ? as for satisfaction by examination of all particulars , it is not every mans , indeed very few mens , opportunitie . the respective authors and records , wherein particularities must be inquired after , and found , for satisfaction in that kind , are in few mens hands ; and not of all mens understandings . so that mr. prynne by dealing so unfaithfully and unchristianly by me and my sayings , as he hath done , hath not onely obstructed the course and passages of his own reputation and credit ; but hath further also injur'd the world round about him , by rendring those good parts and abilities wherewith god hath intrusted him for publick accommodation , if not wholly unserviceable , yet of very meane usefulnesse and concernment , in comparison of what their line and tenour would well have borne . it is a saying in the civill law , that he that hath injur'd one , hath threatened many . i end , with a word of christian admonition and advice , both to the gentleman my antagonist , and my selfe . sir , the great and glorious god that made us , in mercy remembers both our frames , and considers that we are dust a . this gracious remembrance of his we injoy both by night and by day , in whatsoever we injoy in the comforts of this world , yea or in the opportunities wee have of laying hold on that which is to come . our dust which abaseth us , in this respect , yet relieveth us , and becomes a mediator for us with the bountifulnesse of god : were wee creatures of a more excellent line , those sins and infirmities would ( in all likelihood ) were they found upon us , be our ruine , which now doe not so much as shake the least haire of our heads . if wee would but remember and consider one the other , as god doth us both , that common principle of frailtie , out of which wee act to a reciprocall discontentment and offence , would be of soveraigne use to mollifie and supple , if not perfectly to heale , both our wounds . not to think any thing that befalleth us strange , is almost ( being interpreted ) not to think it evill . we shall not quit our selves like men , if we make any great matter of it , to be evill intreated by men . mutuall discontentments now and then are a known tribute which men must look to pay for the commoditie of living & conversing together in the world . if we have offended one the other , happie shall we be in forgiving one the other , and circumvent him whose designe was to have circumvented us , and made hatred ( a kind of upper hell ) of our contestation . if i have offended you otherwise then by speaking the truth , and so as the defence of it , all circumstances duly poysed , required , you shall not need long to complaine of want of christian satisfaction , as far as i am able either to doe or to speak any thing that may accommodate you , if you please , but to signifie your aggrievance , and make your demands in a christian and loving way . and if your heart will but answer mine in these inclinations , the storms and tempests of our contestations , shall yet end in a sweet calme ; and men shall look upon us , as if wee had never been they : if you reject the motion of a christian compliance by the way , i can very patiently , and with comfort enough , awaite the decisions of that great tribunall , whose awards will shortly seale all the righteousnesses and unrighteousnesses of men , against all further disputes or inquiries to the dayes of eternitie . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a king. . . a mat. . . b joh. . . c vers . . notes for div a e- a innocency and truth triumphing together . b my nocturnall lucubrations , borrowed from the houres allotted to my necessary naturall rest , &c. epist. dedic. c epist. ded. propè finem . d epist. to the reader . propè finem . e epist. to the reader . versus finem . f pag. . versus finem . a epist. delic . non longè à fine . b ibid. & p. . c epist. to the reader . sect. . d pag. . a cyprian ad caecil . lib. . ep. . sect. . b epist. ded. p . paulò ab initio . sect. . a ibidem . sect. . b ibidem . sect. . c pag. . a pag. . sect. . b pag. . c pag. . d innocency and truth triumphing together . sect. . a pag. . paulo ante medium . b innocencies triumph . p. . . c ibidem . d ibidem . sect. . a pag. . circà medium . sect. . b king. . . c king. . . sect. . d pag. . circà medium . a pag. . paulò post ini●●●● . sect. . sect. . a though for the most part really cordiall in their affections , actions to the parliament and church of england ( speaking of independents ) epist. dedic. circa initium . b pag. . circa finem . c epist. dedic. paulo post initium d full reply . p. . circà initium . sect. . a nec verbum verbo curabis reddere fidus interpres . hor. de art. sect. . b cor. . . c ver. . d isa. . sect. . a mat. . . b thes. . . sect. . sect. . mr. pryn , p. sect. . a psal. . b prov. . . sect. . a rom. . b pag. . paulò ante medium . sect. . a epist. dedic. non longè ab mitio . b ibidem . c epist. to the reader , all most throughout , and elsewhere in severall other of his writings , as his ful reply , &c. a full reply pag. . b ibidem . c full reply p. . propè finem . a heb. . . b what ever censure you deserve , i fear your book demerits the fire to purge out this dross . p. . a psal. . . b psal. . . c act . d exod. . . e gen. . . f mat. . , . g pag. . a pag. . b see my anti-cavalierisme . c see my bonc for a bishop . a epist. dedic. in sine . b mar. . . c cor. . . a reglum est malè audire , cum bene feceris . a mat. . . b dan. . . c dan. . . . a full reply pag. . circa initium . b pag. . a full reply in the very last clause . b {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . arist. ethic. ad nichom . l. . c. . a rom. . . b ioh. . . a ierem. . b numb. . . c pag. . l. . . d pag. . in fine . a jer. . . b rom. . . a tim. . . a rom. . b act. . . c innocencie and truth triumphing together . d thes. . , . e tim. . , . f ezek. . , . , , . jer. . . esa. . . mat. . , act. . , . & . , , , . rom. . . pet. . , . cor. . . tit. . . & . , &c. a pag. . circa medium . b act. . . . b ioh. . . a mr. edwards antap. p. . b katharine chidley new-yeers gift . epist. to the reader . c epist. dedic. non longe à finè d epist. dedic. non longe à fine . and again , p. . non longè à fine . * whereas m. s. hath these words : better a thousand times is it that such distempers as these , though found in millions of men , should suffer , then that the least haire of the head of one of those men should fall to the ground : this passage a. steuart ( 〈…〉 ) interprets this : better that millions of us , who desire the suppression of all sects , should suffer , then but any of them should lose but one , yea the least hair of their heads . the second part of the duply , &c. by adam steuart , p. . what m. s. cals , distempers , a. s. interprets , presbyterians ; and is not able to conceive how the one should suffer without the other . and this line of interpretation he stretcheth over this whole discourse : 〈…〉 . e thes. . f actapol . p. . a mat. . . b mat. . . a pag. . ante medium . b antapol pag. , , , &c. c pag . . , &c. a these my impotent endeavours . epist. to the reader , versus finem . a psal. . . two conferences between some of those that are called separatists & independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with mr. burton and a number of his church, and the other with mr. john goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by d.b. ... brown, david, fl. - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing b ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing b estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) two conferences between some of those that are called separatists & independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with mr. burton and a number of his church, and the other with mr. john goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by d.b. ... brown, david, fl. - . chidley, samuel. burton, mr. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by john clowes ..., london : . "to the impartial reader" signed: david brown. "mr. chidley's letter to mr. goodwin": p. . reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. eng a r (wing b ). civilwar no two conferences between some of those that are called separatists & independents, concerning their different tenents: one whereof, was appoi brown, david b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - taryn hakala sampled and proofread - taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion two conferences between some of those that are called separatists & independents , concerning their different tenents : one whereof , was appointed with mr. burton , and a number of his church , and the other , with mr. john goodwin , and some of his church ; which was occasioned by a gentlewoman being a member thereof , whose husband is one of the separation : with a letter written to that purpose . now published by d. b. for resolution of those who are doubtfull , in all or any of the matters here controverted ; chiefly concerning the high places , which are usually called churches , and now of late by the souldiers , steeple-houses . london , printed by john clowes , and are to be sold at the blew-anchor in cornehill , . to the impartial reader . there being a meeting appointed between mr. burton , with some of his congregation , and some of my judgement in matters of religion , that both they and we might conferre together , and the better know the difference of our professions and practises , and so indeavour ( if possible ) to be of our mind , concerning the truth ; at which meeting , we expected accordingly to have had all matters in controversie between us , fully and lovingly , debated ; but the issue did not prove , as we could have wished . again , upon an other occasion of some difference also , in certain points of religion , between a sea captain and his wife , he being one of our members , and she of mr. john goodwins : a meeting likewise was appointed between him , with some of his church , and some of ours , at which meeting those matters were discussed at large , though many lets ( as in the former ) were cast in the way , to hinder both the progress and conclusion thereof . now , seeing the first of these conferences was above six yeares agoe , and the last about one year agoe , and both of them written when they were recent in the memory , it may thereby appear , how unwilling all or any of us ( though having the better part , as we hope ) have been , to divulge them or any of them to publick view . but now upon further consideration , and weighing the matter more seriously , ( as in aballance ) i find that in the one scale , all the prejudice and discontent , which the other party may possibly take without any just cause , in that we thus shew here to the world , both their parts and ours , to be all very light ; in comparison of the generality of the peoples great ignorance , and manifold doubts in the other scale ; who are still captivated in babel , and both misled and blindfolded , not onely by the clergy in general , who succeed their lords and masters , the bishops , ( howbeit the servant be not a-above his lord ) but even still for sinister ends , by the most smooth and subtle sort of them , who make a greater shew of godliness , and reformation then the rest , such us this mr. goodwin is , and mr. burton was . this ignorance and doubting doth consist in divers particulars concerning the sacred worship of god , chiefly the high places , otherwise called churches and steeple-houses , here in both conferences controverted : although their national church-worship , worshippers , ministry , government , and maintenance , are there by the scope of all to be observed : in which and many other , most of the people are also very ignorant and doubtful . and considering , as on the one side , that no man ought to hide his talent , nor be a self-lover ; but every christian especially , is to dispense whatsoever measure of gift he hath received , to the good of others ; so on the other side , what great need there is still ( as was said ) both of information and resolution in the aforesaid matters , ( notwithstanding all the floods of books now a dayes , concerning other subjects . and although mr. chidley ( my yoak-fellow in the first , and both for himself and me in the last , ) was somewhat averse to the publishing of the business , yet since we are of one mind in the particulars thereof , the rest of us have thus brought both conferences to publick observation , chiefly concerning the high-places , for though we have often heard , that howbeit rome was not built in one day , ( as the proverb is ) yet a greater number of romish houses , such as the monasteries , abbies and nunries both in scotland and england , were demolished in one day formerly , then there have been crosses pulled down , either on steeples or streetes , in a hundred of these dayes , now wherein we live , notwithstanding there were both far more letts , and fewer pretences of reformation , in those dayes then in these . thus , having no further occasion here , to hinder thee from this good occasion it self , i refer thee to take hold thereof , and of all things else , which may adde to thy knowledge and sanctification , as i wish to do my-self , whiles there is any time or opportunity yet remaining : onely at present , i intreat thee , that what degree of profit soever thou reapest hereby , thou wilt give unto god ( as the onely true owner ) the whole praise : and as for me his weak instrument in this behalf , if i incur no just dispraise , i shall rest fully and gladly contented , thine , as thou both desirest and endeavourest , not to follow any man whosoever , further then that man followeth christ . david brown . two conferences , between some of those that are called separatists and independents , concerning their different tenents . there being a conference in london , appointed between some of those christians , usually called the separation , and mr. burton , a pastor of an independant church , concerning some differences between them , and divers separatists coming to his house in fryday-street , for that purpose , upon the . day of the . moneth , . being the . day of the week , after church-exercise , and onely three of them having occasion to speak , viz. mr. brown , mr. duppa , and mr. chidley ; and the said mr. brown , immediatly after the conference , writing the sum of what he and the said mr. burton spake , which to this time he hath kept secret , and it might be he would have done still , were it not that by the intreaty of certain friends , and to give them and others some satisfaction , concerning the high places of england , lately debated again between the said mr. chidley and mr. john goodwin , he hath now divulged the same to publick view : together with that other conference of late , which was occasioned by a member of our congregation , whose wife was a member of mr. goodwins church , and desired to be satisfyed , whether her husband or she was in the truest church-state . the first question was , whether mr. burton and his church were in the order of the gospel , that the separation might know certainly how to esteem them , intitle them , and have fellowship with them ; and whether they were so indeed , as they professed to be in word , and mr. burton answering affirmatively : it was in the next place demanded , how then did his practise and theirs so much differ , both their professions and covenants seeming to be alike , and therefore desiring to have his practice compared with his covenant or profession , or any of them , with theirs of the separation , which he absolutely refused , saying , he and his church were a free and independant body or corporation , and therefore not bound to make account to any other church or people in the world , although never so famous , and one of his elders added , that the very ( avaliers or malignants themselves , gave them the title of separatists . but it being objected to mr. burton , that he was bound both by precept and example of the immediat apostles , to give a reason of his faith , stop the mouthes of gain-sayers , yea and approve himself to those that are without , far more to those that are within , even to be indeed as he professeth himself and the rather , in that he is a teacher and guide to others ; as the first church of the gentiles at antiochia , thought it rather an honour then any disparagement , to aske resolution of some doubts at the church of the jewes , who were before them in the faith and order of the gospel at jerusalem , though some of the apostles were present at both ; and the rather , we hope you wil do , said mr. brown , because we come to you in love , esteeming more of you then hundreds of your breeding , ( i mean at the universities ) in regard both of your sufferings and writings , far beyond what they have either acted or suffered , especially for that publick sermon , you made in the pillary-pulpit at westminster , three houres long , even resisting unto blood against the evill of the times , unto which i was a witnesse , and is a motive of my coming to you at this time . he answered that his profession and practise were agreeable , and that he and his people entered , according to the rules prescribed in the gospel , and so walked for ought he knew , as many can bear witness , and we also may , if we wil come and hear him . to the which or the like words , one of his elders added that john baptist sent two of his disciples to ask our saviour , whether he was the messias , or if they should look for another , and our saviour not answering them directly , bids them tell their master what they heard and saw , yea , and reckoneth up divers excellent particulars , which he onely expressed without either inference or application ; so his meaning ( to our apprehension ) was , that if we were not pleased with what they professed or practised , concerning the worship of god , we might rather come and see , and heare and observe , their works of conversion , and manner of conversation , then to reason the matter ; but we desiring first to conferre some few times , to see if we could possibly agree in the truth , perceiving their unwillingness , by some harsh speeches and carriages , did apprehend it would be to small purpose . upon the hearing of these or words to that purpose , mr. burton said , that he had renounced his ministry and orders which he had of the church of england , and that he witnessed by his suffering , against the ministry , constitution , worship , government , and high-places of that national church , and that there was no holiness in those places . and upon his justifying himself and his people in all things , by our saviours practise and his apostles , it was demanded by mr. brown ; what meaneth then the blearing of those sheep , and the lowing of them oxen daily in our eares if you do , and obey all things so well ( as both saul & the angell of laodicea , & many others spake of themselves ) what meaneth then ( i say ) both your preaching , and all your members hearing in those parish-assemblies ; is it not a halting between two opinions , and that ye shew your selves , neither to be hot nor could in so doing ? he answered that our saviour and his apostles , resorted to the synagogues of the jewes , and why might not they go as wel to the parish-assemblies ? but saith mr. brown , you must neither compare the jewish church with the english ; nor yet the synagogues of the one , with the high places of the other ; but rather the high places of england , with those in judah , in that they have both an unlawful dedication and foundation ; so it appeareth by your practise , whatsoever by your words you profess , that you are still in babel , absolving the wicked ( sparing as it were the fatt ) by your presence , and condemning the just in sion , ( whom ye esteem to be lean ) by your absence , though ye know obedience to be better then sacrifice . he and another of his elders answered , that neither did he preach , nor they hear in every common parish-church , but such as they chused above others , neither did they hear in those high-places , as men were in discharge of their ministerial function , but onely in the exercise of their gifts , and not so much for edification , as that they might get some matter of accusation against them by hearing them , and thereof make some profitable use , when they saw a convenient occasion . then it was demanded , how he and other independents could justifie their unequal yoking , with those in the parish-assemblies , whom they judge to be onely of the world , and not of the church , as themselves profess to be ; and though they partake in the word & prayer with them , in the publick high places , yet they are not so thankful , as to admit those of the assemblies to partake with them at their privat administring the seales , as if that privat separation at that time , or in that place , would alter the national church constitution of them and all the root together in one . whereas , they should have no spiritual fellowship at all , with the unfruitful works of darkness , but rather reprove them , and witness against them , as both iddo the prophet did at bethel , and as the jewes were commanded of god , not to go to bethaven , beersheba , bethel , nor gilgal , yea and we find it recorded , as a but or exception , even against some of the kings of judah , for not abolishing those high places ; whereby not onely evil it self , but all the appearances and occasions of evil might be removed ; so that whatsoever place hath an idolatrous institution or dedication , cannot by any meanes be purged , but in altering the form thereof , by utter demolition , and scarce applying the same to a civil use , or to be a common habitation . to which was answered , that those places might still be well used by gods people , though they have been abused by heathens and papists . whereupon occasion was taken by mr. brown , ( seeing them so unwilling to confess the truth ) to clear those two points , both of a church-state ; and place of meeting , expecting a satisfactory answer of them , at least for the hearers sake . he affirmed , that in regard the temple of jerusalem , was built according to gods own direction , and therefore a holy work , alwayes capable to be purged , and reduced to the first principle of integrity , if ever it should be abused by idolatry ; as it was polluted , purged , and reduced divers times , according as the magistrates and people following their example , were disposed to good or evil , as upon divine record , in the books of the kings and chronicles doth appear . so the churches constituted by the immediat apostles , according to christs institution , consisting all of faithful people , according to visibility , ( referring secret things to god ) and therefore , all proceeding from a true and holy original , whensoever they should be corrupted either by sinful matter , or corrupt practises , as in corinth by that incestuous person , or in galatia by that false doctrine , they were still purgeable , and were indeed purged . for otherwise a little leaven , would have sowred the whole lump . and according both to the temple and churches purifying , adam the first man , being created holy and unblameable , if he should fall , ( as he did indeed ) to sin and apostacie , he was ( by meanes of his original holiness by creation ) restored by the second adam christ , to his former integrity . but neither material temples , built by the man of sin and child of pardition , nor by the heathens , and dedicated to idolatry , and intitled by the name of saints departed , although otherwise used to the worship of god , as the jewes did sacrifice still in the high-places of judah , after king manasses conversion and reformation , chron. . . nor yet assemblies gathered or constituted by humane invention , contrary to the patern of the churches mentioned in the gospel , can be reduced to any purity or integrity , because they never had any , but must needes still continue in apostasie and idolatry , ( as they were made thereof at the first , until there be a visitation or dissolution ) as we have woful experience , even yet in these dayes : which were pretended to be dayes of reformation , and might be yet so indeed , if it should please god to honour those whom he hath set in authority , with so excellent , worthy , and glorious a work , beyond all other works ; as he did that worthy young king josiah . to those grounds thus , or to this effect layed , mr. burton and his congregation , in stead of answering , opposing , applying , or any wise clearing themselves , ( in a harsh and angry manner ) propounded three questions to the separatists . first , who built the synagogues of the jewes ? to which he answered , in that the scripture is silent , who built the synagogues ( except only a centurion , who loved the iewish nation built one ) it doth not become any man to demand the question ; neither is it necessary to edification or salvatiō ; but we neither read nor hear of any dedication of them to idolatry , which the scottish covenant abjureth , as wel as they do the romish hierarchy , worldly monarchy , blasphemous liturgy , canonizing of saints , and baptizing of bells ; and it sufficeth us , that the synagogues were lawful meeting places , for the more frequent and convenient practice of the jewish religion , except what was appropriated to the temple , at certain times of the year , or else neither our saviour nor his apostles would have countenanced those places with their presence ; nor king david in the psalmes complained of the desolation thereof . his second question was , might no meeting-houses be built , to the churches of the saints now under the gospel ? to which the separatists answered , that there both have been , and still are many lawful meeting-places , built by lawful authority for the churches of the saints under the gospel , for keeping them both from the injury of weather , and for their more quiet and peaceable practicing of the ordinances , being sheltered and hidden , both from the open and secret enemies of god and his truth , besides the dwelling , houses of members and wel-willers , and wherein also are churches , both habiting and conversing , and all without either dedication , consecration , or any kind of superstition . and his third question was , whether were those which we call high-places , and he still comparing to the synagogues , consecrated before , in , or after they were built ? the separatists answered , that mr. burton himself knew better , who built and dedicated those shops of antichrist ( wherein he hath lived all his dayes ) then the separatists , who were meer strangers to such things , and unto which , both he and his congregation do still bring all their tithes , sacrifices , gifts , and oblations ; but for the hearers sake , the separatists said , ( according as they understood ) that the full dedication of the house , ( whatsoever be of the ground ) must be at the accomplishing : but in regard both of intention , earnest , and beginning of action , are compleated at the first stone laying , as the bishops usually laid the first stone , and made the blessed ( or rather cursed ) beginning , and so they and the workmen proceeding and ending equally , the one with the other , by masses , mattens , letanies , or such like abominations , whereby the popish clergy ( stil strengthned with civil authority ) do practice their devotions in all their consecrations . and in end , after mr. burton did withdraw to refresh himself , he being in exercise with his congregation before this appointed disputation , amongst some other speeches had with the elders and other members of his church in his absence , they alleadged , that if we should look so narrowly and precisely , to antichristian or heathenish dedication of places , why do we offer any service or sacrifice to god at all , either in england , scotland , france or ireland ; for they were all four dedicated to saints departed , such as st. george , st. andrew , st. denis , and st. patrick ? it was answered , that those nations and all others , were created and built by the great creator , builder , and maker of all things , and ordained for his people to live in , yea even the wicked as well as the godly , all having equal right by the benefit of creation , even the tares as wel as the wheat in the field of the world , until the harvest of the great day ; but he never ordained any idolatrous places which are built and dedicated by man , ( or by that man of sin , and child of perdition ) to be worshipped in , but hath destinated such works , yea and ( workers also ( except repentance intervene , ) to destruction , and accounteth all kind of sacrifices , upon whatsoever pretence there offered , to be like king jeroboams practise at dan and bethel , ( who made israel to sin ) even abominations of desolation . some of those scriptures which concern these matters . hos. . . though thou israel play the harlot , yet let not ●udah offend , and come not ye unto gilgal , neither go ye up to bethaven , nor swear , the lord liveth . amos . . . come to bethel and transgress , at gilgal multiply transgressions ; and bring your sacrifices every morning , and your tithes after three yeares . and offer a sacrifice of thanks giving with leaven , and proclaim and publish the free offerings ; for this liketh you , o ye children of israel , saith the lord god . chron. . . , , . and asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the lord his god . for he took away the altars of the strange gods , and the high-places , he brake down the images , and cut down the groves . and he took away out of all the cities of judah , the high places and the images : and the kingdom was quiet before him . levit. . , . and ye shall eat the flesh of your sons , and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat . and i will destroy your high places , and cut down your images , and cast your carcases , upon the carcases of your idoles , and my soule shall abhorre you . chron. . . , , , , , . kings , . . kings . . , , , , , , . mr. chidleys letter to mr. goodwin , and the summe of the conference which followed thereupon . mr. goodvvin . these are to certify you , that mrs. goodsone who is one of your congregation is wife to one whoe is a member with us of the separation , and she findeth her selfe agrieved that her husband is not free to communicate with her in spirituall worship , now she would willingly know wherein the difference lyes that we cannot communicate with you . therefore we have occasion to inquire into the matter , forme , ministery , worship and government of your church , and shall desire satisfaction therein , that it is according to the rule , before we can joyne in communion therewith , or with any of the members thereof , knowing that our lord christ requireth separation in worship , not in part , but wholly , both from persons and things polluted with diabolicall uncleannesse , and to cleanse our selves from all filthiness , both of flesh and spirit , and to perfect holiness in his feare , which is the desire of the soule of him who is your true friend , ready to receive your manifestation when you shall appoint that i may come to you , or you to me , samuel chidley . th day of the th month , . upon the . of august , . the meeting was appointed to be , unto which divers persons came , at which mr. chidley would have insisted upon the matter and forme , &c. and first upon the matter , but mr. goodwin would not debate that , nor other things there desired to be handled , but said , he would go a readier way to work , and make an end of the businesse without that ; for saith he , suppose it be granted , that all our matter be so corrupt , as you presuppose it is , yet it is lawfull for your members to communicate with ours ; for saith he , it is lawfull for a man to communicate with one whom he doubts whether he be a believer or not , but this was denied by mr. chidley , from two considerations . first , that whatsoever is doubtfull is not to be practised , though it be a thing indifferent , because it is not of faith , and therefore a sin , because whatsoever is not of faith is sin . secondly , much more is he to forbeare that which is contrary to the word of god , as to communicate with one of whom we have not good testimony of his life and conversation , and that the work of grace is wrought upon him , that he is effectually called , and separated from idolatry , and cleaveth unto the way of christ in purity . now said he , we know you not , yee are strangers to us . we are not come to accuse , but to hear your manifestation for our satisfaction , that yee are fit matter for the church of christ , and we hope we shall not break communion for every circumstance of difference amongst us , if it do not make against the abosolute being of a saint . then mr. goodwin said , i grant that a man is not to practise a thing if he be doubtfull of it , but howsoever , he that is doubtfull is to give good reason of his doubt . then the gentleman that doubted , was called upon to give his reasons , why he could not communicate with his wife , who told them that the lord had shewed him the evill of the church of england , and that he was joyned to a separated congregation , and thought that he should not be fit matter for the church to communicate with , if he should hold communion with the members of mr. goodwins church , because mr. goodwins peoples practice was to preach and heare in the parrish-churches of england , and to worship in the idolls temples , and to baptize the children of unbelievers , and such like . then after some further discourse , they shewed themselves to be willing to debate the businesse concerning the high places ; whereupon the question was stated . whether it were lawfull to worship in the idolls temples ? the sum of the conference briefly followeth . the apostle to timothy , ( tim. . . ) saith , i will therefore that men pray every where , lifting up holy hands , without wrath and doubting . and thereupon mr. goodwin argued , that gods word had made no restriction , and therefore that we are not to restraine it , and that therefore this word : ( every where ) in this place is to be taken for all manner of places without exception . to which mr. chidley answered , that god himself had made restrictions , shewing that we are not to worship him in idolls temples , for he hath commanded them to be quite pull'd down , numb. . . and that command is not taken away , but remaineth in full force to this day ; this word every in this place is to be restrained , as in other places , where it s said , children obey your parents in all things , col. . . servants obey your masters in all things ; and every creature of god is good , and all things are lawfull : in all which we are to know , how farre such words are restrained , and how farre not ; it extendeth , and is to be restrained to lawfull things , and so this place where he saith , pray every where , that is , in every place which is not prohibited by gods law , but it s prohibited by gods law for the saints to worship in idols temples , for he hath commanded , they should be quite pluckt down , saying ye shall quite pluck down all their high places , numb. . . because they are polluted with diabolicall uncleannesse , now this command was never abrogated , as i said before : but mr. goodwin said there is no guilt of sin upon the high places , neither is there any sin imputed to them , but its a sin to hold restriction of places for gods worship to which mr. chidley answered , that god accounts them diabolically uncleane , and calleth them by the name of sin it selfe . as he calleth the high places of aven , the sin of israel , hosea . . and if it be a sin to hold restriction of places for the worship of god , then it is a sin to uphold that restriction , by worshipping god in those places that are so restrained . it s you that uphold distinction of places said mr. goodwin , not we who meet in them ; we hold all places alike . mr. chidley answered again , we uphold not the distinction of places , but it s you by your worshipping , and pleading for those places that are restrained by men . saith mr. goodwin , even now you would maintain distinction of places , and now you say , you uphold no distinction of places . mr. chidley said , its true in a sense , we uphold them not at all ; but when they have set up idolls temples , we do hold that those places are made diabolicall by them , because wicked men have dedicated them to their idols : no more doth god himself in the first place make such distinctions of places as they make , but when once they have put a diabolicall uncleannesse upon the same , god declares then that they are uncleane , and calleth them sin , and commandeth them to be pulled down , and so we distinguish not in the first place , but they make the places to be distinct diabolically by their dedication of those places to idols , and so the distinction is theirs , not ours . god himself made all things good at the first , and made no devill , but made angels , and they made themselves devills , so he made all things good , and made no temple of idolls , or temple of devills , so concerning men he professeth , that he desireth not the death of a sixner , and why will ye die o house of israel ? to shew them that their damnation is of themselves , and yet elsewhere he sheweth in respect of the evill of punishment , there is no evill in the city but he doth it ; but they bring it upon themselves in the first place . therefore when they have made idols , or idols temples , god owneth them not , but in his just judgement punisheth them , and commands them to be demolished ; and we would have them to be destroyed , according to gods commands , and the example of king josiah , . chron. . and other holymen of god , and therefore we are farre from upholding them : yet hold them the temples of devills , till they are pulled down . it s impossible said mr. goodwin , to prove that all the temples in the land are dedicated to idolls ; but what if they were , is it unlawfull to worship in them therefore ? . these steeple-houses here , were not dedicated to devills , but some to christ , others of them are dedicated to god , himself , even to the trinity , and most of them are dedicated to saints , &c. . christ came into the world to take away the distinction between places and places , and to make all places alike ; and to deny this , tendeth to deny that christ jesus is come into the world , and to establish jewishme . . when he came into the world , he dissolved the uncleannes which god had made and put upon the creatures , how much more then the uncleannesse which men had put on those places of theirs built of stone . . by the same grounds we may refuse to worship god in any part of the land : suppose this whole kingdom be dedicated to st. george , as france to st. dennis , & all the houses dedicated all over the kingdom , as once its said to be wholly dedicated to st. george ; must we not worship god in the kingdom , because of that . . in john the . its clear that jesus christ speaking to the woman of samaria , sheweth that all places are now alike , and as there is no place unto which the worship of god is bound , so there is no place , though an idolls temple , but that men may lawfully worship and serve god in ; for when the woman questioned , saying v. . our fathers worshipped in this mountain , and ye say that in jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship . . jesus said unto the woman , believe me the houre cometh , when ye shall neither in this mountain , nor yet at jerusalem worship the father . as if he should say , the houre is coming , that all places shall be left free for to worship in , both this mountain , and all others , not one place above another , but all alike , no place more holy , no place more unholy , though in the mountain of samaria , where was an idolls temple , and so takes away the distinction of places , which was under the law . and the reason why the idolls temples were prohibited under the law , was because god had branded them then . . upon the same ground that we must not worship in these places , because dedicated by idolaters , it is not lawful for men to worship in their houses , because idolatry hath been committed theer . unto all which mr. chidley made answer as followeth . . it is not impossible to prove these temples in the land which the idolators frequent to be dedicated to idolls . and the way to try them is as a thief or murderer is tryed when he is arraigned before the judge , if he confesse it with his own mouth , he is out of his own mouth condemned ; even so , if the founders of these places , have confessed out of their own mouthes , that they have dedicated them to such uses , as the records of the realm testifie , the said places are condemned , and ought to be executed , but for these things , i referre unto the records of the realme , and unto those plain and manifest proofes openly known formerly . . whereas it s alledged that they were not dedicated unto devills , i say temples dedicated to idolls , are dedicated to devils , and so the apostle paul speaketh of the idolls sacrifices , when he saith to the corinthians , cor. . . that the things which the gentiles sacrifice , they sacrifice to devills , and not to god , and i would not that they should have fellowship with devills ; the scripture calleth idolls by the name of devills , so the two calves which jeroboam set up at dan and bethel were called devills , for in setting up and worshipping idolls , men set up and worship devills : therefore the temples of idolls are the temples of devills , ( and not the temples of god ) no more are these . and whereas it is said some are dedicated to christ , what is their christ ? their christ is not he that standeth at the right hand of god , but it is a peece of bread , which they fall down and worship , calling it their god , and eat it when they have done , o ridiculous horrible impiety , worse then jeroboams ! and they do not say , it s a figure of the body of christ , and the wine a figure of the blood of christ , but ( say they ) it is really the body and blood of christ , and to this christ do they dedicate their temples which they call christs chruch . and so their trinity is not the eternall god , the father , son , and holy spirit , but their trinity which they worship is the picture ( painted upon a wall ) of an old man ( sitting ) in ( that which they picture ) for heaven , and there is the picture of what they call the son : and the holy ghost , they have also ( painted out ) in the likenesse of a dove ; this is their trinity which they fall down and worship , and dedicate their temples unto and admit that most of them were dedicated to saints and angels , it is to be considered , whether it be not idolatry to dedicate any places to saints or angels ; but what are your saints or angels which they dedicate their temples unto new images which they make of them , that are no more like unto them , then my pictur is like mr. goodwins , and they fall down before these images , saying , st. peter save me , st. paul save me , &c. these their impieties far exceed the abominations of the heathens , and so are their idols temples abominable places , and ought not to be worshipped in , of the saints . besides divers temples in england are builded and dedicated to the heathen gods , as well as these are to the christian or rather antichristian gods . then mr. goodwin began to commend what he had read of the papists works , concerning the nature and essence of god , saying , we should not belie the devill . mr. chidley answered , do you think that jeroboam and jesus was not acquainted with such things ? but the papists impiety far exceedeth his , he made calves in imitation of those at jerusalem . these make a breaden god , and eat it when they have done , besides their other abominations , by which they provoke the lord to anger . therefore friends , i desire as you tender the salvation of your soules , to labour to know that iniquity is in a mystery , and to discover the same ; and also learn to know the mystery of godliness , and how it differs from the mystery of iniquity , though in some sort the mystery of iniquity resembleth it , which maketh it the harder to be discerned , which causeth so many soules to be blinded to their condemnation ; for god is not their god , but these are , these are their gods , let them pretend what ever they will , they worship these images . . where it s said that christ came into the world to take away the distinction of places and places , and to make all places alike , and that to deny this , tendeth to deny that jesus christ is come into the world , and to establish jewishme . i answer , that christ came not into the world to take away the diabolicall uncleanness of idols temples : no more then of idols themselves : to affirm that he did , tendeth not onely to deny christ , but also to acknowledge antichrist , and to establish idolatry . but he hath said , little children , keep your selves from idolls . . whereas it is said , that when he came he dissolved the uncleanness which god had made , and put upon the creatures ; how much more then the uncleanness which men had put upon those places , but of lime and stone ? mr. chidley answered , that it followeth not : that because christ did take away the ceremonial uncleanness which was put upon the creatures by god , that therefore he took away the diabolicall uncleanness which was put upon the creatures by men , unless to demolish , and abolish them . as at his coming its said , the idols he will utterly abolish ; it s a maxim in divinity , amongst the separation , that christ dyed not for temples made of lime and stone , but for his church , which consisteth of living stones , he died not then for idols temples , no more then for idols : and though i am verily perswaded , that nothing is unclean of it self , so it was in the time of the law , but institution caused the difference , and it is considerable , that in the time of the law the badgers † skinnes were made use of to cover the lord sanctuary , but when did the lord ever take that which belonged to any idol , or idols temple , to cover his sanctuary ? never ; it argueth therefore , that there is a great deal of difference between those creatures , that were ceremonially unclean , and those diabolically unclean , and christ might well take away the uncleannes of the one , but not of the other ; we are bidden in the gospel , to keep our selves from idols , and from the pollutions of idols : therefore jesus christ hath not cleansed them , though he hath made the ceremonial things common . . whereas it was said , by the same ground , as we refuse to worship god in these dedicated places ; we may refuse to worship god in any place of the land . mr. chidley answered , that it followeth not ; for though some be idols temples , yet all the house are not . i know said he , that as the heathen nations had their great gods besides their petty gods , so these nations besides there petty abominable idols , they have for every nation a god ; as st. george for england , st. patricke for ireland , st. denis for france , st. david for wales ; and to that god st. george are temples dedicated , which are called saint georges churches : these are therefore idoles temples , and ought not to be worshipped in , it cannot be proved so of all the houses in the land ; but if any man wil prove his house to be an idols temple when the parl. sets forth an edict that all the idols temples in the land shall be thrown down , those shall be demolished as well as the other . as king hen : the th . did demolish divers of the monasteries . king henry th . did somwhat like to jehu . jehu though he destroyed the house of baal , yet the idols temples of jereboam he destroyed not : so king henry the th . destroyed divers of the great high places , but the lesser high places he did not demolish ; though they were all one in respect of pollution ; save that which hath most deceit in it , is most to be hated . and as for the land it selfe , if it be possible to dedicate the whole earth to st. george , then its possible to dedicate the whole world to an idoll : but it is not in their power to dedicate it no more then to dedicate the sun and moon and starrs &c. now the sun and moone and starrs have been worshipped as gods , yet were not to be demolished ; because they were not their only propriety , all men have their propriety in them ; and therefore though god commanded the idols temples , built upon mountaines and hills to be demolished , yet he did not require the mountaines and hills to be pulled down , they were of gods making , as the earth : the idols temples were of mens framing and erecting , and in this distinction about propriety the parliament bears more out in their declaration , where they reason concerning the propriety of the king & of the people . moreover lands are the propriety of posterity even of the after-generations which cannot properly be given to idols as temples that are of their making , no more then the sun and moone , which were worshipped , and are common to all ; for god causeth the sun to shine upon the evill and upon the good , and upon the just and unjust . and concerning houses , the lord did command in israel , that the high places should be pull'd down , when he allowed the dwelling houses to stand , except some house , upon whose roofes they burned incense to other gods . . concerning christs speeches to the woman of samaria , nothing can be gathered thence for idols temples , true it is that it sheweth that a time should come , when the people should not be limitted to this place or to that , and this makes against those who limit men to places , and also against those that uphold such limitted places , by worshipping in them . but that christ alloweth men to worship in idols temples , and declareth them to be no more polluted , then any other place ( which you affirm ) cannot be gathered , neither by the express words of christ , nor necessary consequence ; for the matter in question between christ and the woman was , which was the place of worship , not about the places of worship , but the place of worship , whether it was at that mountain , or at jerusalem . our fathers ( saith he ) worshipped in this mountain , and ye say that in jerusalem is the place of worship . he doth not say [ a ] place , but [ the ] place , whereby it appeareth that her question was about [ the ] place , where men ought to worship ; whether it was at that mountain , or at jerusalem , for then god bound his publick worship to one place . now jesus said unto her , woman , believe me the houre cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain , nor yet at jerusalem worship the father . now christ by this speech doth not allow them to worship in idols temples though in a sence , all places are free to do it , all places of gods creation ; but places of mens limitation , erection , and dedication to idols , ought to be pulled down ; and this by way of application , may appeare in the . and . verses of the same chapter , where christ dealeth plainly with her saying , ye worship ye know not what , we know what we worship , for salvation is of jewes : but the houre cometh and now is , when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth ; for the father seeketh such to worship him : as if he should say , think not that though the time be , that the true worshippers shall not be limitted to worship in a place , that therefore this is any justification of you samaritans who worship in idols temples , and worship idols . ye worship you know not what : we know ( saith he ) what we worship , and alleageth this reason , for salvation is of the jewes ; intimating , that salvation was not of the samaritans , who worshipped idols , and in idols temples ; so that if they would have salvation , they must turn from such vanities : therefore he would have them to worship the father in spirit and truth . now the spirit and truth are distinct , though all one in purity . the spirit is the spirit of god , and the truth is the word of god , as it is written , thy word is truth , now the word of truth doth speak against idols temples , and therefore , we are not to worship god in idols temples , but in spirit and truth : the spirit of god is a pure spirit , but idols and idols temples , are unclean and diabolicall , and contrary to the nature of the spirit , the father seeketh such to worship him , that worship him in spirit and truth : and therefore if you would be found of him , worship not in idols temples , but in spirit and truth . and by all this scripture , here is not the least colour for ; but rather against idols temples . christ never shed his blood to uphold and purge idols temples , from their diabolicall uncleannesse , which uncleanness proceeded not from any institution of god , but from the devill . and whereas it is said , that the reason why idols temples were prohibited under the law , was because god had branded them then . mr. chidley answered , that they made them idols temples , god branded them , and to this day , that brand is not taken off them , but remaineth still upon them : the blood of christ hath not cleansed them , the brand is still upon them , as well as upon the idols themselves to this day : therefore as the saints are to keep themselves from idols , so are they to keep themselves from worshipping in idols temples , because the brand is upon them . neither do we say that a place is an idols temple , because idolatry is committed there , as if a papist should crosse himself , and fall down and worship in his idolatrous manner , in this or in another mans house , this doth not make it an idols temple ; but if he build and dedicate , and consecrate a place of his own proper goods , to an idole : this is now an idolatrous place , and god in the time of the law commanded israel to pluck down all the idolatrous high places , but not all the houses , therefore the houses may stand , when the high places are quite pluckt down . then mr. goodwin returned to his former sence , of that place in the . of john , but it was denied that jesus christ , doth in the least allow or countenance the woman of samaria , or any samaritan or any idolater else , or any man whatever , to worship in idols temples . then mr. goodwin to back it , returned to the first scripture in tim. . . concerning the word ( every where ) but it was told him , that that was restrained by god himself , and that by every where is meant , all places of gods creation , but not of mans limitation and dedication to an idol , and therefore not the temple of samaria , as he alleaged , from john . which saith , the houre cometh ; when ye shall neither at this mountain , nor yet at jerusalem worship the father . then said mr. goodwin , it is very clear from iohn . christs speech to the woman of samaria , that he came to loose the bands wherewith men were bound , to come to worship at the temple of jerusalem , and in saying , neither at this mountain , nor yet at jerusalem , he doth not justifie the worship in the one place more then the other . and if by spirit you meane the directions of the spirit , its true ; and by the spirit may be meant the spirit of a man , as paul saith , whom i serve in my spirit . to which mr. chidley answered . that christ came to loose the bands which tyed men to the temple of jerusalem , is true ; but it followeth not therefore , that he hath left us free to worship in idols temples : he justified the worship in his own temple ; but not in idols temples ; neither doth the saying of christ import any such thing ; christ saith afterwards to the woman , ye worship ye know not what , as if he should say , do not think that i do in the least justifie your practises , or your abominable idols , or idols temples , because i have said , neither at this mountain , nor at jerusalem shall ye worship the father ; but i would have you know , that ye samaritans worship ye know not what , we [ jewes ] know what we worship , for salvation is not of you samaritans , but of the jewes , and christ sheweth that the father must be worshipped in spirit and truth : now there is not the least word of truth to justifie worshipping in the idols temples . and concerning the allegations , that by the spirit is to be understood the directions thereof , and is meant of a mans spirit , and the truth therein , as paul said , god whom i serve in my spirit . mr. chidley answered , i grant that we are to serve god by the directions of his spirit , and that is by his holy word , which directeth us not to worship in idols temples , but sheweth that they are sin , and to be quite pulled down : and though paul saith , he served god in his spirit , it may be taken , that he served god who was in his spirit , for god is said to dwell in the saints by his spirit , and the saints are exhorted to pray in the holy ghost which is the spirit of god , who directeth us by his word of truth , to which we are left for direction , which doth not allow any to worship him in idols temples , and therefore this place in john . . . by application maketh against them . that scripture saith mr. goodwin , doth not include by truth the circumstance of place . but it doth ( said mr. chidley ) for the word is truth , which witnesseth against the idols temples , and layeth that brand upon them , which the blood of christ taketh not off . and whereas it is called a circumstance , it is more , it s a material substance ; seeing gods commands are so directly against idols temples , i cannot believe ( said mr. goodwin ) that stones are capable of pollution , there 's no place holy now ; and therefore there is no place unholy or polluted , but as all creatures are cleane , so are all places . mr. chidley replyed , why may not stones be capable of pollution , as well as a peece of bread ? which bread and wine consecrated by an idolatrous priest , is the table of devils ; and the cup , the cup of devils : as contrariwise the bread and wine given in the lords supper , is the table and cup of the lord . and i desire you sir , to take what hath been spoken into consideration , & before you depart , * take along with you this distinction which i once proposed to divers honest men , mr. burroughs ; mr. burton , m. sal●marsh , m. knowles , and dr. holmes , and divers others ; for in pleading about the high places , they all unanimously concurr'd , that now in the time of the gospel , there is nothing holy nor unholy ; and this they said was gospel-liberty , & that to affirm contrary to this , was a taking away of the liberty of the gospel . and they were so enamoured with this point , that they repeated it divers times , which when i heard , i stood up and said , whereas it hath bin concluded , that there is nothing holy nor unholy , and that to affirm there is , is to takeaway the liberty of the gospel ; i say , that now in the time of the gospel , some things are holy , even the bread of the lord , and the cup of the lord , other things are unholy , even the table & cup of devils ; & other things are meerly common ; & this divinity i learned of the apostle paul , who was not inferiour to the chiefest apostles , who when he speaketh to the corinthians , calleth the bread and wine in the lords supper , the table and cup of the lord , which none were to eat and drink but holy persons . that meat and drink which was in the idols temples , he calleth it the table and cup of devills , and there is that which is meerely naturall and common , which words of mine they took into consideration , and i think mr. burroughs had more sight in it , then any of them all ; and so likewise , i desire you , to take these things into consideration . and whereas it is objected , that because there is no place holy now , that therefore there is no place unholy . sir , it will not follow , that because there is no material place , which is the temple of the lord , as the temple of jerusalem in former time , that therefore there is no idols temple , or temple of devills ; for then by that account , because there is no flesh of beasts now to be offered , according to the saying , sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not , therefore the flesh in the idols temple is not uncleane ; but the apostle calleth it the table of devills , as really as he calleth the holy bread and wine , the table and cup of the lord : therefore as sacrifices of beasts , are not now holy , yet the meat sacrificed to idols , is the table of devills ; so though there is no temple holy now , yet the temples dedicated to idols , are the temples of idols , the temples of devills . i do believe sir , that there is nothing unclean of itself , nor holy of it self , but institution whether divine or diabolicall , maketh the same otherwise then it was before , though it is in a manner common , as david said of the shew-bread , and so it hath been under the law , and so it is under the gospel . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- mr. john goodwin . mr. chidley applying his speech to the people present . † the originall hath it tachas skins , whether there be a defect in the common translation , its questionable , and it seemeth somwhat doubtfull . but that idols temples are hated by god is out of doubt . * mr. goodwin was about to depart now . some modest and humble queries concerning a printed paper, intituled, an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons, &c. for the preventing of the growing and spreading of heresies, &c. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) some modest and humble queries concerning a printed paper, intituled, an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons, &c. for the preventing of the growing and spreading of heresies, &c. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , - p. printed by matthew simmons for henry overton, and are to be sold in popes-head alley, london, : . "published by authoritie." attributed to john goodwin by wing. text is continuous despite pagination. a reply to: bacon, nathaniel, and taet, mr. an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons (wing b ). annotation on thomason copy: " ber [i.e. september] ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bacon, nathaniel, - . -- ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons. taet, -- mr. -- ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons. church of england -- discipline -- early works to . heresy -- early works to . heresies, christian -- england -- early works to . religious tolerance -- england -- early works to . great britain -- church history -- th century. a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no some modest and humble queries concerning a printed paper, intituled, an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons, &c. for the goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion some modest and humble qveries concerning a printed paper , intituled , an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons , &c. for the preventing of the growing and spreading of heresies ▪ &c ▪ rom. . . let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind . isa. . . therefore is judgement farre from us , neither doth justice over ●ake us : we waite for light , but behold obscurity , &c. job . . . who is this that darkneth counsell by words without knowlege ? hos. . . heare ye this , o priests , and hearken ye house of israel — for judgement is towards you ; because you have been a snare on mispah , and a net spred upon tabor , hos. . . the watchman of ephraim was with my god : but the prophet is the snare of a fowler in all his wayes , and hatred in the house of his god . quid prodest habere zelum dei , & non-habere scientiam dei ? orig. quid ergo saviunt , ut stulticiam suam dum minuere volunt , augeant ? longe diversa 〈◊〉 carn●●●●… & pietas — defendenda religio est ▪ non occidendo , sed moriendo ; non savitiâ , sed patientiâ . non scelere , sed 〈◊〉 illa enim malorum sunt , haec bonorum . lactant. de iust. c. lib. cap. . omnis lex debet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suae equitatis . calv. published by authoritie . london ▪ printed by matthew simmons for henry overton , and are to be sold in popes-head alley , . to the reader . being accidentally encountred by a vagrant ▪ paper , printed though without authority , yet with this inscription ; an ordinance presented to the honourable house of commons , &c ▪ and conceiving partly by the frame and spirit of the discourse , partly from some un-clerk-like expressions in it , that certainly those worthy gentlemen , whose names are specified in the said inscription , were more or lesse wronged by the publishing and spreading of it under their names ; and that it was some other spirit that breathed in it , not theirs ; i supposed that possibly i might doe the said gentlemen some right , by a proposall of some queries upon occasion of some particularities in it , by meanes whereof they may the better consider , in case it relates to them either in whole , or in part , whether it be not unworthy of them ; or whether , and to what degree those have injured them , who issued the said undeserving papar with such a badge of honour upon it , as the two names of two such well-deserving men . queries about the ordinance . whether it be agreeable to the spirit of christ , ( who came into the world , as himself saith not to destroy mens lives , but to save them a , ) to make snares of any of his doctrines for the destruction of the lives of men ? whether it be agreeable to the mind of christ , for men to inflict the heavie censure of death upon their brethren , for holding forth such doctrines , or opinions in religion , suppose contrary to admonition , which , for ought the said inflicters know , except they make themselves infallible , may be the sacred truths of god ? whether it be agreeable to the will of christ , for civill magistrates to compell men , upon paine of death , to call them rabbi , or masters , when as he hath so expressely charged men , yea ▪ his apostles themselves as well as others , not to be called rabbi , or masters b ▪ or whether to injoyne and compell men ( especially upon the penaltie of death , ) to preach and teach in many the most weighty and difficult points of religion , nothing but the dictates of their owne judgments and wills , be not much more then simply to be called rabbi , or masters , i. then simply to connive at , & comply with those , who professe in all things to submit their judgements and consciences unto them ? yea , whether is it not , to threaten men , and that in the ●orest manner of all other , if they will not call them rabbi , or masters , i. if they will not sin against the commandement of christ ? whether is it christian to maintaine that religion , by putting others to death , which ( as lactantius saith ) men ought to defend , non occidendo , sed moriendo , i. not by slaying others , but by dying our selves for it ? whether is it not evident from tertullian , lactantius , and other ancient and authentick writers , that the idolatrous heathen sought to maintaine their idolatrous religions , by the same stratagems ▪ methods , and wayes , which the said ordinance proposeth , for maintaining the religion of christ ? whether our best records of later times doe not cleerely shew , that the papacy , and antichristian party in the world , have still gone about to uphold that false and abominable religion , which they professe , by those very shores and props , wherewith the ordinance we speake of seeks to support the true religion of christ ? whether are errours and heresies any other things ; then some of those strong holds and imaginations in men , which ( as the apostle saith ) exalt themselves against the knowledge of god a ? or whether can they be better throwne downe then by those weapons ▪ which ( as the same apostle speaketh ) are mighty through god ▪ for that very purpose ? and whether are these weapons carnall , or spirituall ? whether to injoyn ministers or others upon pain of death , imprisonment , &c. not to teach or maintaine any thing , in many the greatest and most weighty points in religion , contrary to the present sense and apprehensions of the said injoyners , being but few in number , ( comparatively ) be not to quench proceedings ; and to say ( in effect ) unto the holy ghost , reveale nothing more unto others , then thou hast revealed unto us ; or rather thus ; if thou hast not revealed the truth unto us , reveale it not unto any other men ? whether they , who inflict the heavie sentence of death upon men , for maintaining an opinion or doctrine contrary to their sense and interpretation of a scripture , one or more , had not need be as infallible in their judgements , ( at least as touching the sense and meaning of all such scriptures ) as god himself ? whether did luther ( with divers other worthy assertors of the truth in his dayes against the papists ) deserve death , imprisonment , &c. for maintaining , and that publiquely , and against frequent admonition , by zuinglius , calvin , &c. the erroneous opinion of consubstantiation ; an error farre more grosse and dangerous then many particulariz'd in the ordinance ; besides many others not inferior in evill unto this , as concerning free-will , election & c ? whether did calvin deserve either imprisonment or death , for , teaching and maintaining publiquely by writing , that the observation of the lords day , as it is injoyned by the ordinances and lawes of this realme , is not according to the word of god ? whether doth a minister , in case that in the performance of his office in preaching the gospel , he shall mistake the mind of christ , or the true sense of a scripture , one or more , cited , & interpreted by him according to the best light which god hath given him , deserve either death or imprisonment , for his mistake ? or whether many of the opinions made liable hereunto by the ordinance , be constructively , any thing moe , or of any worse demerit , then a mistake , or misunderstanding of some scriptures ? whether a mistake in judgement , ( as suppose a man verily and in the simplicitie of his heart , judgeth that infants ought not to be baptized , or that presbytery is unlawfull , or the like ) joyned with a publique and free profession of his judgement in this kinde , be more sinfull , or more deserving imprisonment , death , &c. then an open and manifest deniall in works , of such truths , which yet men professe in words ; as when men professe that they beleeve jesus to be the son of god , and that the scriptures are the word of god , &c. and yet live loosly , prophanely , in drunkennesse , riot , &c. or whether the ordinance maketh not the former denialls , which at most are but of truths very questionable and obscure , yea and but of inferior consequence neither ( at least comparatively ) punishable by imprisonment or death ; whereas it inflicts no censure at all upon these latter denialls ( except it be in the case of blasphemy ) which are every whit as full & publique as the other , yea and of truths both more generally received , and farre more easie to be proved ; yea and of a far greater and more formidable consequence , then those other ? whether ministers , truly faithfull and conscientious , being fully perswaded in their soules and consciences , that many of the opinions asserted in the ordinance for truths , yet are not such , but errors ( of wch perswasion there are many such ministers in england ) shall doe well to comply with the ordinance , ( so called ) against their judgements ; and publiquely hold forth to the people those things for truths , which they are absolutely perswaded in their judgements , to be nothing lesse ? or whether the said ordinance , threatening them with imprisonment or death , in case they shall declare themselves otherwise , be not a dangerous temptation upon them , to draw their foot into that snare of death ? whether , the publicke holding of any such opinion , which according to the doctrine of the apostles themselves , deserves not excommunication from , or by a christian church , may yet deserve imprisonment , or a cutting off by death , by the civil magistrate ? or are they , who are meete and worthy to live and converse as members in a church of christ , unworthy so much as to live in a politique or civill state ? or were there not in the church of corinth , ( yea and in other churches besides in the apostles dayes ) who publiquely held some opinions of farre worse consequence , then very many of those , which the said ordinance censureth , either with imprisonment , or with death ; of whose excommunication , notwithstanding the apostle is silent , even then when he argueth against , and condemneth their errors . yea doth he not intreat them graciously , notwithstanding the danger of their error , calling them beloved brethren a & admonisheth them to take heed of being deceived ; to be stedfast & unmoveable ? &c. whether is it not very possible , that persons , who may hold , and upon occasion publiquely maintaine , many of the opinions condemned as errors , by the ordinance , may yet be as full of grace and goodnesse , as precious in the sight of god , as fruitfull in every good worke , as serviceable to the state , and common-wealth , as those who are of another judgement and practise ? o● what repugnancy is there in either of those things , unto any of these ? if so , whether can it be a thing well pleasing unto god , or of any good accommodation to the state , to make a law for the punishing or afflicting of such persons ? whether is not such an ordinance , ( were it an ordinance indeed ) in the very nature and direct tendency of it , likely to prove a grand discouragement unto many from taking the calling of the ministery upon them , ( the kingdome suffering at present so extreamely for want of able and faithfull men in this calling , ) and especially such , who are most ingenuous , and most eminently qualified by god for this great worke ? or whether are not men of greatest worth for parts and abilities , especially in conjunction with good and tender consciences , ( the most absolute composition for the ministery , ) more like then other men to decline that imployment , wherein they are so much the more like to suffer for a good conscience sake , then other men ; by how much the more likely they are to discover the common errors and misprisions of the present age in matters of religion , then they ? whether is not the said ordinance , in the example of it , a direct incouragement and confirmation to popish magistrates , to persecute the faithfull servants of god , who live in their territories with fire & sword , for professing the truth of god amongst them ? and whether doe not they , who here seeke to plucke up the tares , by such an ordinance , plucke up the wheat also there , by the same ? whether was there ever any such ordinance , or state act , ever heard of , or knowne , in any the reformed churches ? i meane , which was so apparently bent against the faces , if not of the greatest part , yet of so considerable a part of the best and most conscientious men amongst them , as this is ? whether was there ever any thing done in the bishops times , or any thing attempted to be done by this generation of men in the day of their greatest interest and power in the kingdome , of that bloudy consequence to those godly persons , ministers , or others , whom they most hated , and sought to crush , as this ordinance , if once established , is like to be , to surre greater numbers of truely pious and conscientious men ? whether the said ordinance ministreth not an advantage , of opportunity to the worst and wickedest of men , who commonly hate the best and faithfullest ministers most , to accuse them unduly of such things , which according to the ordinary course of law , may touch their lives , or otherwise bring much affliction , and vexation to them ? whether twelve simple countrimen , such as our ordinary juries usually confist of at countrey assizes , who ( alas ! ) are far from being versed , or any wayes judgemented in the profound questions in divinity , ( unto many of which the ordinance relateth ) and who are generally uncapable of such equipollencies , proprieties , and differences of words , upon the understanding , or right discerning whereof , the innocencie or guiltinesse of the person indited is very likely to depend , be of any competent faculty or interest , to passe upon the life or liberty of a studious , learned , and conscientious man , in such cases , which the greatest and ablest professors of divinitie in the world , are not able cleerly , or with any competent satisfaction to the scrupulous ( many times ) to resolve , or determine ? whither an ordinary judge of ass●●e , who either doth not pretend , or ( at most ) in most cases , doth but pretend to any thoroughnesse of search or inquiry into the deep things of god in the abstruse and disputable points of religion , as that of free will , of the trinity , of the hypostaticall union , concerning the death of christ , the condition of the soule after death , &c. be a competent judge in such questions and cases as these , especially over , and against such men ( to the bereaving of them , either of life or libertie ) who are knowne to be men of able parts , and to have made the study of divinity , their sole imployment all their dayes , being otherwise , grave , and sober , and conscientious men in all their wayes ? whether these two opinions , ( both of them attainded for errors , and made equally punishable by the ordinance , ) o that the morrall law contained in the ten commandements is no rule of a christian life . o that the observation of the lords day , as it is enjoyned by the ordinances and lawes of this realme , is not according , or contrary to the word of god ; can possibly be both errors , or justly punishable ; since the observation of the lords day , as it is enjoyned by the ordinances and lawes of this realme , is no where to be found in the morall law contained in the ten commandements ; this law requiring the observation of another day , differing from that , the observation whereof is injoyned by the ordinances and lawes of this realme ? or if the law contained in the ten commandements be the rule of a christian life , whether doe they walke christianly , who doe not conforme themselves unto it ? nay , who place a great part of their christianity , in walking , if not contrary to it , yet quite beside it ? as all they doe , who observe the lords day , as it is injoyned by the ordinances and laws of this realme ; and celebrate the two sacraments , baptisme , and the loods supper , mentioned likewise in the ordinance ? whether doth the ordinance , making this a punishable errour , to hold that a man by nature hath free will to turne unto god , by this expression , of having free will to turne unto god , intend to grant any will at all in men by nature to turne unto god , though much incumbred and oppressed with corruption , and indisposition to such an act , and in that respect , meaneth that it is not free ; or else to denie all , and all manner of will in men , in respect of this act ; so that when god purposeth to make men willing to turne to him , he must create a new facultie of will in him , as also a new disposition or propension in this will , whereby it may be freely carried upon this act of conversion ? what does the ordinance mean , by blasph●ming the name of god , or any of the holy trinity ? doth it mean any kinde or degree of sin , against the third commandement ? or any , and every kinde of swearing ▪ as by faith , troth , or the like ; so that upon the second offence committed in this kinde , after , and contrary to admonition , the party offending is to suffer death ? or doth it by blaspheming the name of god , &c. intend onely the highest kindes of blasphemy , as the calling of god , or of jesus christ , accursed , wicked , unjust , unfaithfull , & c ? what doth the ordinance mean , by impugning the word of god ? doth it mean , the opposing by way of argument and discourse , every truth contained and delivered in the word of god ? or onely the proposall and inforcement of such reasons and grounds , the tendency whereof is , to prove it , indefinitly taken and considered , not to be the word of god ? in what sence doth the ordinance make it erroneous and punishable , to hold , that god seeth no sin in the justified ? inasmuch as there is a sence , ( if not more then one ) wherein it is most certainly true , that god seeth no sin in such persons ( a ) ? in what sence doth the ordinance adjudge it an error , worthy to be punished , and that with no lesse than perpetuall imprisonment , in case it be not abjured ; to hold and maintain ▪ that a man is bound to beleeve no more , than by his reason hee can comprehend ? doth it intend to make men of this faith , that they are bound in conscience to beleeve more than they can comprehend , that is , cleerly and fully conceive any reason why they should beleeve ? if so , then how much , or to what proportion of object are they bound to beleeve , beyond what they are able to comprehend by reason , sufficient & cleer grounds of beleeving ? are they bound to beleeve in this kinde ( i mean , beyond what they are able to comprehend by reason ) without measure , bounds , or limits ? if so , are they bound to beleeve all things without exception , that shall any wayes , or by any hand be presented unto them ? or , if reason ought not to regulate or limit men about the object or matter of their beleeving , then are they bound to beleeve those things , concerning which , there is no ground or reason at all , why they should be beleeved ? if so , whether is divine revelation , or the asserting of things by god , any ground or reason , comprehensible in that relation , by that faculty of reason , or understanding in a man , for the beleeving of all things so revealed , and asserted ? if so , whether is not reason , able to comprehend and judge of all things required by god as necessary to be beleeved , so farre , as they are necessary to be beleeved , i. e , as farre as they are revealed by god ? or is any man bound to beleeve that , concerning which it is unpossible for him , or any man , to comprehend , or conceive any reason , why it should be a truth ; and consequently worthy or meet to be beleeved ? or what instance can be given in any particular branch of the object of faith , which ought to be beleeved , and yet is unpossible to be comprehended by reason , that it is a truth ? or whether ought any man ( at least , in sensu composito , ) to beleeve the deepest or highest mystery in religion , any further , or any otherwise , then as , and as farre , as he hath reason to judge it to be a truth ? what doth the ordinance mean , by publishing doctrines with obstinacy ? doth it mean a publishing of them , contrary to the will , pleasure , or prohibition of the assembly of divines , or of any particular man , whether they shew unto the assertors or publishers of such doctrines , any sufficient reason to convince them , or no ? or what kinde , or manner of reasons doth it intend those shall be , upon the tender whereof , either by the said assembly , or others , the publisher of the doctrines shall be judged obstinate , in case he shall still publish them ? or if , by publishing with obstinacy , be meant , a publishing contrary to the desires , or injunctions of men , without any sufficient reason given of their desires , or injunctions in this kinde ; then in what sense or notion doth the ordinance understand the word obstinacy ? or how many desires , prohibitions , or injunctions of men to the contrary , must precede and be administred , before a man shall according to meaning and intent of the ordinance , be said to publish a doctrine obstinately ? whereas the said ordinance maketh it an error , and the publishing of it punishable with imprisonment , to hold , that government by presbytery is unlawfull ; whether doth it mean , that government by presbytery which the parliament hath established , or that government by presbytery , which is so importunely desired and defended by the ministers ; because there is ( it seems ) a strong opposition , and vast difference between the one and the other , at least in some things ? or doth it intend , all , and all manner of government by presbytery , in what sense or notion soever ? what doth the paper mean , by blaspheming the name of god , or impugning the word of god , wittingly , and presumptuously , considering , that ( as mr. prynne informes us at a large ) the word , presumptuously admits of a strange variety of significations ? and since the sin of blaspheming the name of god ( with the other ) must be committed wittingly , and presumptuously , or contrary to admonition , before the ordinance ( so called ) takes hold of it , or maketh it punishable ; upon what testimony , evidence , or indication , one or more , shall the said sins be adjudged to be committed wittingly ? again , inasmuch as the said sins committed contrary to admonition , are made so severely punishable by the ordinance ; by whom is it intended that this admonition must be given , to bring the said sins under the dint and stroke of the ordinance ? whether by a magistrate only , or by a minister , and that either in his publique ministery , and in generall , or in private , and in personall addresse , or by any man , of what rank or quality soever ? god having appointed an expresse punishment ( by way of remedy and cure ) of blasphemy , in the new testament ( whom i have delivered up unto satan , saith paul , that they may learn not to b blaspheme , ) whether is it either reasonable or christian , to decline this punishment of so sovereign a nature for the healing of the sin , and to preferre a punishment mentioned onely in the old testament , which , though appointed by god for those times , yet hath no such evangelicall vertue or property ascribed unto it ? whether the ordinance , in ordering the delinquent or party accused , to renounce his error in the publique congregation of the parish-church whence the complaint comes ; intends onely this renunciation , when the complaint of the error preached or maintained , comes from , or out of such a publique congregation ? or in case it comes from , or out of another congregation , viz. which is not parochiall , or held in a parish-church , whether then doth the ordinance intend any such renunciation at all ? or in what congregation doth it intend it ? or whether is any complaint of an error published or maintained , admittable by the ordinance , but onely those , that come from some publique congregation of a parish-church ? in what sense desireth the paper to be understood , when it maketh an action punishable with imprisonment , to publish , that it is not lawfull to teach children to pray ? or whether doth it measure children , by age , or by understanding ? if by either , at what age , or under what line or scantling of understanding must they be , when it shall be punishable by the ordinance , for any man to affirme , that it is not lawfull to teach them to pray ? for doubtlesse it is not lawfull to teach children , or whosoever , to pray , unlesse we can reasonably judge them capable of our instruction in this kinde , and of learning how to pray . the scriptures not having cleerly determined or defined , what is erroneous , or hereticall , in many ( if not in the most ) of the particulars mentioned in the said ordinance ; who , or of what capacity or interest ought they to be , that are meet to be constituted judges or determiners of such cases and questions ? whether those , that already are profoundly ingaged on the one hand ? or those who as yet stand undeclared in either ? or who have any power or authority from god to appoint judges in such cases as they please ? whether did god ever give any power or authority to civill magistrates , or others , either in the old testament or the new , to make any controverted exposition of any clause or clauses in the law , controvertible between priest and priest , scribe and scribe , though published and declared , or any matter whatsoever of doubtfull disputation between grave , learned , pious , and conscientious men on both sides , punishable either with imprisonment or death ? and whether are not many of the points condemned by the ordinance , matters of this nature , controvertible ( i mean ) yea , and actually controverted between persons of equall worth , parts , learning , judgement , conscience , on both sides ? finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a luk. . . b mat. . . . a cor. . a cor. . . a numb. . . jer. . . psal. . . &c. a truth triumphing over falshood , p. ▪ b tim. . philadelphia: or, xl. queries peaceably and inoffensively propounded for the discovery of truth in this question, or case of conscience; whether persons baptized (as themselves call baptism) after a profession of faith, may, or may not, lawfully, and with good conscience, hold communion with such churches, who judg themselves truly baptized, though in infancy, and before such a profession? together with some few brief touches about infant, and after-baptism. by j.g. a minister of the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) philadelphia: or, xl. queries peaceably and inoffensively propounded for the discovery of truth in this question, or case of conscience; whether persons baptized (as themselves call baptism) after a profession of faith, may, or may not, lawfully, and with good conscience, hold communion with such churches, who judg themselves truly baptized, though in infancy, and before such a profession? together with some few brief touches about infant, and after-baptism. by j.g. a minister of the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . p. printed by j.m. for henry cripps, and lodowick lloyd, and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley, london, : . j.g. = john goodwin. annotation on thomason copy: "june. .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng baptism -- early works to . infant baptism -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no philadelphia: or, xl. queries peaceably and inoffensively propounded for the discovery of truth in this question, or case of conscience;: w goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion philadelphia : or , xl . queries peaceably and inoffensively propounded for the discovery of truth in this question , or case of conscience ; whether persons baptized ( as themselves call baptism ) after a profession of faith , may , or may not , lawfully , and with a good conscience , hold communion with such churches , who judg themselves truly baptized , though in infancy , and before such a profession ? together with some few brief touches about infant , and after-baptism . by j. g. a minister of the gospel of jesus christ . i thank god that i baptized none of you , but crispus and gaius . — and i baptized also the boushold of stephanas : besides , i know not whether i baptized any other . for christ sent me not to baptize , but to preach the gospel . cor. . , , . for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus . gal. . . for in jesus christ , neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision , but faith which worketh by love . gal. . . circumcision is nothing , nor uncircumcision is nothing ; but the keeping of the commandments of god . cor. . . deus nobis imperavit congregationem : sibi servavit separationem . august . in mat. . . infantibus minime negandus baptismus , quos deus adoptat , & filii sui sanguine abluit . calvin . harm. p. . london , printed by j. m. for henry cripps , and lodowick lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley . . queries about lawfulness of communion , with churches deemed unbaptized ; as also about infant and after-baptism . i. whether is there any precept , or example in the gosp●l , of any person , how duly soever baptized , who disclaimed christian communion , either in church fellowship , or in any the ordinances of the gospel , with those , whom he judged true beleevers , upon an account only of their not having been baptized , especially after such a manner , as he judged necessary for them to have been ? or in case there be neither precept , nor example found in the scriptures to warrant such a practise , upon what ground are the consciences of such men , who practise it , satisfied or emboldened , in their way ? or if it be replyed , that there were no beleevers in the apostles days , who were not baptized , and that truly , and consequently , that there was no occasion of scrupuling communion with any beleever in these days ; . how can this ever be proved , ( viz. that there were no beleevers unbaptized in the apostles days , ) the contrary being apparant ( as may be touched hereafter ? ) . be it granted , that there were no beleevers unbaptized , or unduly baptized , in the apostles days , upon what ground notwithstanding can the practise now queried , be justified , or maintained , unless the practisers certainly know , and can satisfie themselves , that in case there had been such beleevers in these times ( i mean , who had been un-baptized , or unduly baptized ) those duly baptized would have declined such communion with them , as that specified ; especially considering that positive actions ( such is a declining , or withdrawing from , communion with the saints in church-fellowship ) cannot be justified upon negative grounds , at least not further then in point of meer lawfulness , or indifferency , no nor thus far , in case of scandal ; which is the case of those , who withdraw from church-communion to the offence , both of that church from which they withdraw , and of many others ? ii. whether can it be proved from the scriptures , or by any argument , like , or meet , to satisfie the conscience of any tender and considering christian , that the apostles or other christians in their days , would have declined church-communion with , or denyed church-communion unto , such persons , whom they judged true beleevers in christ , and partakers of like precious faith with themselves , only because they had not been baptized or dipped in water , after a profession of their beleeving ; especially in case they had been baptized , and solemnly consecrated by washing with water , unto the service of jesus christ before , considering that the apostle paul expresly saith , that in jesus christ [ i. e. under the gospel , or profession of christ in the world ] neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor vncircumcision , but faith which worketh by love a : and again ; that circumcision is nothing , nor vncircumcision is nothing , but the keeping of the commandments of god b ? meaning , that under the gospel , and profession thereof , neither did the observation of any external rite or ceremony [ circumcision , by a synecdoche speciei , being put for all kind of external rites , or ceremonies ] avail or contribute any thing towards the commending of any person unto god ; nor yet the want of any such observation , discommend any man unto god , or prejudice his acceptation with him : but that which was all in all unto men , and which availed any thing , in , and under the gospel , that which being sound in men , rendered them accepted and approved of god , and the want of it , disapproved , was such a kind of faith [ not such , or such , a kind of ceremony , or such or such a kind of baptism ] which by the mediation or interveening of that heavenly affection of love , uttereth and expresseth it self in keeping the commandments of god , [ viz. so far as they are made known unto them , and as humane infirmity will well bear and admit . ] or is it to be beleeved , that either the apostles , or other christians taught by them , would have rejected those from their communion , who were weak in the faith , and were not convinced of every thing that was in any degree necessary for them to know , and to do , only for want of such an external observance , of the lawfulness whereof they were unconvinced , and which , had they submitted unto it , would have availed them little or nothing ? iii. whether can it be proved by any text , or passage of scripture , either directly , or by any tolerable consequence , that christian churches were ( in the apostles days ) constituted by baptism , or that none were reputed members of churches , or admitted into christian communion with those who were baptized , but only such who were baptized likewise ; considering that that text acts . . [ commonly , and only , as far as i know , pretended for proof of such a thing ] doth not so much as colour , much less cotton , with such a supposal , or conclusion ; the tenor of the place being only this , then they that gladly received his word , were baptized : and the same day there were added unto [ them ] about three thousand souls ? for , . it is not here said , that all they that gladly received the word , were baptized ; but indefinitely only , they that gladly received , &c. now indefinite expressions in scripture are not always equipollent to universals , but sometimes to partitives , or particulars . when the apostle , speaking of beleevers under the old testament , saith , that they stopped the mouths of lions , quenched the violence of fire , &c. [ hebr. . , . ] he doth not mean , that they all did either of these ; nor indeed that many of them did either . see mat. . . compared with vers . . ( to omit an hundred instances more of like import . ) yea many times universal expressions themselves are to be understood with limitation and restraine . these things are sufficiently known to persons any thing conversant in the scriptures . . neither is it here said , nor is it a thing in it self much probable , that only they who were baptized , were added unto them , [ i. e. to the pre-ex●stent number of disciples , ] but only and simply that there were the number of three thousand added the same day . within which number it is the probable opinion of some , that the children , and families , of those , who are said to have gladly received the word , are comprehended ; it being no ways likely , scarce possible , that men should distinctly hear the voyce of a man speaking : especially unless we shall suppose , that these stood nearest unto him that spake , and with the best advantage to hear , there being many thousands more present ; which can hardly be the supposition of any considering man in the case in hand . nor , . is it said , or so much as intimated or hinted in the least , that any of the whole number of the three thousand who were added unto them , were added by means , or upon the account , of their being baptized , although this addition be not mentioned till after their baptizing . it is ten degrees more probable , that their beleeving , or discipleship , which according to the principles of those brethren themselves with whom we now argue , were precedent to their baptizing , and not their being baptized , were the reason and ground of luke's saying , they were added unto the church , or former number of disciples ; considering , . that the original , main and principal foundation of the holy brotherhood amongst the saints , and that which makes them fellow-members , or members one of another , is , not the ceremony of their external baptism , but their fellowship and communion in the divine nature , and inward relation unto the same christ by one and the same precious faith . . that it cannot be demonstratively proved from the scriptures , that those hundred and twenty disciples [ act. . . ] unto which it is here said that three thousand were added , were , or had been , all of them baptized , in as much as ( as will presently appear ) there were divers members of churches in the apostles days , who were unbaptized ; no , nor can it any whit more be proved from scripture , that the apostles themselves mentioned act. . . had been baptized , then that john the baptist was baptized . . ( and lastly , ) that had the church , or persons , unto whom these three thousand are said to have been added , been estimated by their having been baptized , ( which must be supposed , if those who are added to them , are said to have been added upon the account of their being baptized , ) their number must needs have far exceeded an hundred and twenty , considering the great numbers and vast multitudes of persons , that had been baptized by john , mat. . , . compared with mark . . luk. . , . as also by christ himself and his disciples , joh. . . yea had the church been estimated , or constituted , by baptism , the evangelist luke , intending ( questionless , act. . . ) to report the increase of the church and progress of the gospel , with as much advantage as truth would afford , had prevaricated with the cause , which he intended to promote , in reporting their number to have been about five thousand only ; when as , upon the said supposition , and the tenor of the late premisses , he might with as much truth have reported them about forty thousand , yea and many more . howbeit many of them which heard the word , beleeved : and the number of the men were about five thousand . in which passage , the increase of the church , or addition unto the former saints , is with much more pregnancy of intimation ascribed unto their beleeving , then in the other place it is unto their being baptized . therefore both men and women , who are indeed tender of conscience in things appertaining unto god , had need have a better foundation to bear them out in their practise of rending and tearing churches [ or , if this name will not pass , of rending and tearing holy societies and fellowships of saints ] then any thing that can be so much as tolerably inferred from the text now argued , act. . . iv. whether did not the church of christ at rome in the apostles days , and so also the churches in galatia , hold church-communion with some , who were not baptized , considering , . that the apostle to the former writeth thus : know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into jesus christ , were baptized into his death ? rom. . . and to the latter ( after the same manner ) thus : for as many of you as have been baptized into christ . gal. . . . that this particle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as many as ( used in both places ) is , in such constructions as these , always partitive , distinguishing or dividing the entire number of persons spoken of , some from others , by the character or property specified , or at least supposeth a possibility of such a distinction . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as many as touched [ the hem of his garment ] were made whole , ( mat. . . ) this clearly supposeth , either that there were some , or at least that there might be some , who did not thus touch . so again : they brought in all as many as they found , &c. mat. . . so , as many [ i. e. as many men and women ] as are of the works of the law , are under the curse . gal. . . see also mark . . & . , . luk. . ioh. . . act. . ( with others more of like tenor and import , almost without number . ) therefore is it not without controversie and dispute , that the apostle saying to the church at rome , and to those in galatia , as many of you as have been baptized , &c. supposeth , either that there actually were , or at least that ( for ought he knew to the contrary ) there might be , sundry of their members , who had not been baptized ? and if he had either known , or so much as by conjecture supposed , that all the members of these churches had without exception been baptized , is it credible that he would have expressed himself thus unto them ( respectively , ) as many of you as have been baptized , and not rather , you having all been baptized , or the like ? v. whether did not the church at corinth ( in the apostles days ) entertain members , and hold communion with those , who had not been baptized ; considering that he demandeth thus of this church : else what shall [ or , what will ] they do , which are baptized for the dead , if the dead rise not at all ? why are they then baptized for the dead c ? or doth not this imply , that there was a corrupt and superstitious practise on foot in this church , to baptize one or other of the surviving kindred , or friends , in the name of such persons ( respectively ) who dyed unbaptized , and that this church thought and supposed , that such baptism was available for good unto the deceased in such a case ; which practise and opinion of theirs the apostle here insisteth on as inconsistent with that most dangerous and pernicious error of denying the resurrection of the dead , which had now gotten head amongst them ? and if there were such a practise as this in this church , i mean to baptize some of the living members , in the name and stead of some that were dead , is it not a plain case that there were some of these members , who lived and dyed unbaptized ? vi . whether , when paul , soon after his conversion , assayed to joyn himself to the church and disciples at jerusalem ( act. . . ) did this church make any enquiry after his baptism , as whether he had been baptized , or no , in order to his reception amongst them ; or did they know that he had been baptized ? or did barnabas , in giving satisfaction to the apostles and church concerning his meetness to be admitted into communion with them , so much as mention his being baptized , but only declared unto them how he had seen the lord in the way , and that he had spoken to him , and how he had preached boldly at damascus in the name of jesus ? acts . . vii . whether , upon a supposal , that it cannot be proved from the scriptures , that any unbaptized , or unduly baptized person , was ever admitted into church-communion by christians in the apostles days , or that any duly baptized person held communion with a church , the greatest part of whose members he deemed either unbaptized , or unduly baptized , is such a defect of proof sufficient to justifie a withdrawing of communion by a person , who conceiveth himself duly baptized , from such a church , the generality of whose members he supposeth are either not baptized , or unduly baptized ; considering that very many things may be matter of duty , and necessary to be done , which are not warranted for so much as lawful , by any example in the scriptures of like action in all circumstances ? it is the duty of churches , and of every member respectively , to admit their women-members to the lords table ; yet cannot this practice be warranted by any example recorded in the scriptures . yea in case at the time of this sacramental administration in a church , all the men-members should occasionally be absent , except only the administrator , and ( it may be ) a deacon or two , and only the women-members present , there is little question to be made , but that the administration ought to proceed notwithstanding , and the elements be administred unto this female congregation , though there be no example of such an administration as this in the scriptures . there is no example in scripture of any person worshiping the holy ghost : yet it is a great duty lying upon christians to worship him . when david , and the men with him , entred into the house of god , and did eat the shew-bread a , he had no scripture-example to justifie his action ; no more had the disciples to justifie theirs , when they plucked the ears of corn as they passed through the fields on a sabbath day : yet were both these actions lawful , and ( to a degree ) necessary . the reading of the scriptures translated out of the original languages into english , welch , dutch , french , &c. is not only lawful , but necessary , in the christian churches in these nations ; yet is there no example extant in scripture of any such practice in the primitive times , no nor so much as of any translation of the scriptures at all . it were easie to add more instances of like consideration . viii . whether is an action or practice , suppose in matters relating to the service or worship of god , upon this account evicted to be unlawful , because it hath neither precept [ i mean , no particular or express precept , and wherein the action or practice it self , with all the circumstances under which it becomes lawful , is named , ] nor example , to warrant the lawfulness of it ? or hath the practice of admitting women to the lords table , any such , either precept , or example , to justifie it ? or in case a minister shall preach to a congregation consisting of young men only , and from rev. . , or ▪ &c. would such an act as this be unlawful ? or is there any such precept , as that mentioned , or example in scripture , for the warrant of it ? or when david , and those that were with him , went into the house of god , and , contrary to the letter of an institution , eat the shew-bread , had they either such a precept , as that mentioned , or any example , to bear them out in such a practise ? or doth not our saviour in the gospel justifie that action of theirs notwithstanding ? or if the case , or law of necessity , or of peril , either of health , or life , be pleadable for the justification thereof ; is not the same law altogether as , yea & much more , pleadable , on the behalf of such persons , who being of tender , weak , and sickly constitutions , dare not tempt god , or expose themselves to the imminent hazard of health or life , by being doused in their apparel over head and ears in the water ; especially considering that god hath testified from heaven his dis-approbation of the practice , by suffering some to be grievously afflicted in their bodies , and some also to miscarry in life it self , by means ( in all likelyhood ) of the temptation ? or hath not god sufficiently and plainly enough declared his mind and pleasure in all such cases as this , in saying , i will have mercy , and not sacrifice a ? or if it be pleaded , that all danger of miscarrying in either kind , may be prevented , by chusing a warm room , and warm water , for the transacting of the baptismal dipping , is it not queryable hereupon , whether this be not to alter and change , to new-mold , shape , and transform the ordinance of god , as men please , and this under a pretext of observing it ? or is there not as much difference between hot water , and cold , as is between a child , and a man ? ix . whether , when god hath by faith purified the hearts of a people walking in a christian brotherhood and fellowship together , hath he not sanctified them ? and in case any person shall now despise , or decline their fellowship , as unholy , doth he not sin against that heavenly admonition delivered by special revelation unto peter ; what god hath cleansed [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. sanctified , or purified ] call not thou [ or , make not thou ] common a ? or can a man ( lightly ) call , or make , that common , which god hath sanctified , in a more opprobrious and contumelious way , then by fleeing from it , as polluted or unholy ? x. whether doth , or needs , a man contract any guilt of sin before god , by walking in such a society of men , who being otherwise confessedly christian and holy , have only some practice amongst them in the judgment and conscience of this man not approvable , in case , . he shall at any time openly declare his dislike of this practice ; and , . be no ways constrained , or solicited to communicate in this practice ? or , when men may separate that which is precious from that which is vile , and enjoy it thus separated , and apart , without suffering any inconvenience by that which is vile , is it a point of wisdom in them to deprive themselves of the enjoyment of what is precious , because there is somewhat , which they suppose to be vile , near to it ? xi . whether may persons , who are weak in the faith , be rejected by a church from communion with them , in case they desire it , only because they question , or dissent from , the sence of the generality of this church , in some one point of doubtful disputation ? or is not the practice of a man , who pretends to be strong in the faith , in renouncing communion with a church ( or , which is the same , in rejecting a church from his communion ) which he judgeth weak in the faith , only because they more generally dissent from him in a matter of doubtful disputation , a practice much more unchristian and unwarrantable , then the former ? or is not the practice , especially the necessity , of dipping , after infant-ablution , or infant-baptism , a matter of doubtful disputation ; unless ( haply ) by matters of doubtful disputation , we mean , not whatsoever is questioned , opposed , or denyed by any man , or any sort of men , being asserted and held by others ; but only such things , which are controverted and disputed with good probability on either side , by men of gravity , worth , soberness of judgment , throughly versed and expert in the scriptures ? &c. and whether , in this sence or notion of matters of doubtful disputation , is the necessity of the said practice of after-baptism so much as matter of doubtful disputation , the generality of christians so qualified , as hath been expressed , unanimously agreeing in the non-necessity , yea and ( which is somewhat more ) in the irregularity of it ? xii . whether did the lord christ , pointing to any river , or water , say , vpon this water will i build my church ? or did he not , speaking either of himself , or of that great truth , viz. that he was the son of the living god , which peter had confessed , say , vpon this rock will i build my church a ? or is there the softest whisper , or gentlest breathing in the scripture , of any such notion , or opinion , as this , that a true church of christ cannot be constituted , or made , no not of the truest and soundest believers in the world , unless they have been baptized after their believing , how , or after what manner soever , they have been baptized before ? xiii . whether is an error , or mistake , about the adequate or appropriate subject of baptism , of any worse consequence , or greater danger , then an error or mistake about melchisedec's father , as viz. in case a man should suppose him to have been noah ( which he must be , in case melchisedec were the same person with sem ) when as he was some other man ? if so , how , or wherein doth the excess of the danger , or evil of the consequence appear ? if not , whether is it christian , or any ways becoming the spirit of the gospel , to abandon communion with such churches , which ( being interpreted ) is to proclaim them polluted , hated and abhorred by christ , only because a man supposeth them to lie under the guilt of such an error , or mistake ? xiv . whether may not the importune contest , or question , about the appropriate subject of baptism , as it is stated by the brethren of new baptism , in opposition to the judgment and practice ( almost ) of the whole christian world , justly be numbered amongst those questions , which the apostle calls foolish , and unlearned , and adviseth both timothy and titus to avoyd , as being questions which ingender strife a , and are unprofitable and vain b ; considering , . that the experience of many years in the reformed churches abroad , and of some years amongst our selves at home , hath abundantly taught and informed us , that the said question hath yielded little other fruit unto those that have set their hearts to it , yea and unto others also , but contention , strife , emulations , evil surmizings , distractions , confusions , alienations of mind and affections amongst christian brethren , evil speakings , vilifyings , revilings , needless and wastful expence of time , loss of many precious opportunities for matters of greatest consequence , unprofitable disturbings and turmoylings of weak consciences , shatterings , scatterings , rendings , and teerings of such churches , and christian societies , who , till this root of bitterness sprang up amongst them , walked in love , and with the light of gods countenance shining on them , holding the unity of the spirit in the band of peace , edifying one another in their most holy faith , &c. . that the said question , in the nature and direct tendency of it , leadeth unto very little that is considerable , or of much consequence for christians to know ; and that what is brought to light ( of moment and consequence ) by occasion of the ventilation of it , is nothing but what might arrive at the knowledg of christians , in a more peaceable , and less troublesom way : and , . ( and lastly ) that those who are most confident that they have found the treasure of truth , which the question we speak of , seeketh after , are no ways , as far as any ways appeareth , or can be discerned , spiritually enriched by it , but rather impoverished ( at least the generality of them ) losing by degrees , that christian sweetness , meekness , humility , love , patience , soberness of mind , fruitfulness of conversation , &c. which were observable in them before ; as if their new baptism had been into a new , or another jesus , altogether unlike unto him , whom paul preached ? xv . whether is any member of a christian church , or society , at any more liberty , or under any greater necessity , to excommunicate , cut off , or separate this church , or all the members of it , from his communion , only upon his private conceit or perswasion , suppose according to truth , that they walk not in all things according to gospel-rule , then this church is to excommunicate him , upon a true and certain perswasion , that he walketh not in every thing according to the rule of the gospel ? or if churches either be at liberty , or under an obligation by way of duty , to excommunicate every of their members ( respectively ) because they judg them not to walk in all things according to the gospel , are they not at liberty , or bound in duty and conscience , thus to cast out all their members one after another ; considering , that not in some things only , but even in many things ( as the apostle james speaketh ) we offend all ? or hath any single member of a church any more liberty , or authority , to adjudg and determine without the scriptures , upon what grounds or occasions , his departure from a church is justifiable , then a church hath to make laws and constitutions of her own for the ejecting of her members ? or is it anywhere a case adjudged in the scriptures , that if a church in any part of the world , suppose under the frozen zone , shall not practice dipping after sprinkling , or other washing , in the name of jesus christ , every member thereof stands bound in conscience , yea or is so much as at liberty , to reverse , or disoblige himself from , his solemn and sacred engagements to it ? xvi . whether did not paul and barnabas hold christian communion with those christian converts which they made at antioch , acts . , , . and with those also , which they made soon after in great numbers at iconium , acts . , ? or doth it any ways appear from the scripture , that these converts , during the continuance of paul and barnabas with them , yea or at any time after , were baptized ? if not , is it any ways necessary that we should believe , or ought it to be any article of our faith to believe , that they were baptized ? if it be not necessary , then we are at liberty to believe , that paul and barnabas did hold christian communion with unbaptized christians ; especially considering , that the tenor of the history diligently consulted , especially concerning those , who were converted to the faith at antioch , and the short abode of paul and barnabas with them after their conversion , together with the troublesom oppositions which the jews of the place made all the while against them , makes it probable in the highest , that they were not baptized , at least whilest these men continued with them ? xvii . whether , in case any member , one or more , of any christian church , or society , which he judgeth faithful in the main , and willing and ready to walk up to their light , shall verily think and be perswaded , that he hath discovered some defect , or error in this church , may such an one lawfully and with a good conscience give himself a discharge from all care & service otherwise due from him unto it , by renouncing the communion thereof upon such a pretence , or occasion ; especially before , or until , he hath with all long-suffering and meekness , and with the best of his understanding , endevored the information of this church in the truth , and the rectifying the judgments of the members thereof ; considering , that as in the natural body , so in the spiritual or church-body , the members ought to have the same care one for another , and if one member suffereth , all the members to suffer with it a , ( as the apostle speaketh , ) and consequently no one member , being healthful and sound , ought to desert its fellow-members being sickly and weak , especially whilest there is yet any hope of their cure and healing ? xviii . whether ought a company of true believers , concerning whose lawful church constitution there can no other thing with reason and truth be objected , to be vilified , or separated from , as a false church , or no church of christ at all , only because , either , . they do not practice contrary to their judgment and conscience , such things , one , or more , which some men conceive it meet they should practice ; or , . because , either god hath not enlightened them to see every thing , which some other men see ; or else because satan hath not blinded them , so as to make them ignorant of such truths , one , or more , whereof some others are ignorant , judging them to be errors ? xix . whether is it reasonable or christian , that a company of true believers , who have met together in the simplicity of their hearts in the fear of god , in the name of jesus christ , mutually engaging themselves , as in the presence of god , to walk together in all the ordinances of the gospel , as far as they shall from time to time be revealed unto them , and walking accordingly , should be infamously stigmatized as no church , no true church of christ , and consequently be esteemed but as a rabble rout of the world only pretending churchship , and this by some one , or a few persons , only because they cannot see with their eyes , or practice that as necessary , the necessity whereof , after much and earnest prayer unto god , after much enquiry and search , and this with all diligence and impartialness , in order to their conviction and satisfaction , doth no ways to them appear ? xx . whether is it christian , or meet , for any one person , man , or woman , to bid defiance unto an whole church or fellowship of saints being many , and who are otherwise sober , grave , and conscientiously faithful in all their walking , onely because they cannot with a good conscience say amen to every notion and conceit , which these persons themselves judg worthy of reverence and honour , and particularly , because they cannot , against the sence , judgment and practise , as well of all christian antiquity , as of all the reformed churches ( very few , if any , excepted ) in the christian world , thus spiritually court their private apprehensions about the time and manner of an external administration ; especially considering , that they neither have , nor can , either shew precept , example , or any competent ground otherwise , from the scriptures , to commend these their apprehensions unto the conscience of any man ? or is there any precept , which injoyns baptizing , or dipping , in the name of christ , after a baptizing in infancy into this name ? or is there any example in scripture of any baptized after profession of faith , who had been baptized , or who judged themselves , and were generally so judged by others , to have been baptized , before ? if neither , is it not a clear case , that here is neither precept , nor example in scripture , which reacheth home to the case , or which warranteth the practice , of the children of after-baptism amongst us ? and as for any competent ground otherwise to justifie the practice , hath such a thing ever seen the light of the sun hitherto ? xxi whether do not they , who magnifie the ceremony or external rite of baptism to such an height , as to estimate christianity by it , or to judg them no true or sound christians , who are without it , stumble at the same stone of danger and peril of soul , at which the jews stumbled , when they practiced and urged circumcision as necessary for justification ; to whom , upon this account , paul testified ; behold , i paul say unto you , that if ye be circumcised , [ meaning , with an opinion of a necessity of your being circumcised for your justification before god , ] christ shall profit you nothing a ? considering , . that circumcision was an ordinance of god , yea as great and solemn an ordinance , as baptism ; and . that when paul threatened those who so magnified it ( as was said ) with lofing their part and portion in christ , it was as lawful , though ( haply ) not so necessary ( and yet in some cases it was necessary too ) as baptism it self ; yea and the apostle himself administred it , as well as he did baptism , yea and pronounced it profitable , ( rightly understood and practiced ? ) rom. . . . or might not the same threatening ( i mean , of losing the great blessing of justification and salvation by christ ) have been with altogether as much truth and necessity , administred upon a like occasion and account , unto persons so opinionated of circumcision , as the galathians were , even when , and whilst , the use and practice of it was every whit as necessary ( or rather more necessary ) as the use of baptism now is ? xxii . whether is there any precept , or example in the scriptures , of any person baptized after many years profession of the gospel , or after any considerable measure of assurance of the pardon of sin obtained , or at any other time , save at , or about , their first entrance upon a profession of christ ? or is there any competent ground , either in reason , or religion , why either such a thing should have been practised by christians in the apostles days , or why it ought to be practised by any in these days ; considering , . that it is uncomely , and contrary to the law , which god hath established , both in nature , and in grace , to return or fall back from perfection to imperfection , from that which is more spiritual , to that which is more carnal ; and , . that types and figures , which are not rememorative ( as the passover was , and the lords table now is ) but either only significative , or obsignative ( as baptism is ) should be used , after the substance of the things typified and figured by them , have been of a long time exhibited unto , received , and enjoyed by those , who use them ; . that a profession of the name and faith of christ by an holy and blameless conversation for many years together in the world , by a long continued course of mortification , self-denyal , fruitfulness in well doing , &c. is the truth and substance , the heart , life , and soul of that profession , which is made by being externally baptized ; . ( and lastly ) that that which is a duty at one time , in respect of such and such circumstances , may cease to be , or may not be , a duty at another time , when circumstances are changed , many instances whereof might be readily given ? xxiii . whether ought not the law of edification [ cor. . . ] to over-rule all laws and precepts concerning spiritual and church-administrations , as the law of salus populi ought to umpire and over-rule all politique laws and constitutions , in their respective executions ? if so , ought not the administration of baptism to be rather appropriated unto infants , then unto others , considering , . that god himself adjudged the administration of the ordinance of circumcision ( an ordinance the same with baptism , though not in the shape and form of the letter , yet in strength and substance of the spirit , as evidently appeareth from rom. . . well understood , and diligently compared with mark . . luk. . , &c. ) unto infants , to be most edifying in the church of the jews ; otherwise it must be said that he ordered the administration of it to the spiritual detriment and loss of those , to whom he gave it ; and , . that there can no reason , nor colour of reason be given , why , or how , the administration of baptism unto infants in christian churches , should not as well be more edifying unto these , then an after-administration of it would be , as the like administration of circumcision was unto the jews ; . ( and lastly ) that whatsoever the wisdom of men may pretend and plead colourably and plausibly to the contrary , ought to give place to the determination and resolution of god himself ? be silent , o all flesh , before the lord , zech. . . the lord is in his holy temple ; let all the earth keep silence before him , habak. . . although it be demonstrable enough , even by clear grounds and principles in reason , that to baptize in infancy , must needs be more edifying to the church , then to transfer the administration to maturity of years . xxiv . whether is not the baptizing of children , by the apostles and other baptists appointed by them in their days , sufficiently signified and implyed in those passages ( especially in conjunction with the known law and custom of circumcising children amongst the jews ) where they are recorded to have baptized housholds , or families , without exception of any person in any one of them ? as act. . . cor. . . act. . . &c. or can there any arguments or conjectures be levyed from the scriptures to prove the contrary , which will balance or hold weight against these ; considering , . that it is at no hand probable , that god , who had made a law against him , that should open or dig a pit in his field , and not cover it d , would , not only have left the precept and perpetual example of circumcising infants by the jews , as a pit uncovered for believers , both jews and gentiles under the gospel , to fall into , by baptizing their children , without giving the least notice of the alteration of his mind in this behalf , but also have digged this pit yet broader , deeper , and wider , by causing the baptizing of several families to be recorded in the new testament , without the least mention or intimation of the passing by children in the administration ; . that that which is commonly replyed to disable these passages as to the proof of infant-baptism , is extreamly weak , and no ways satisfactory ; viz. that it is elsewhere said of whole housholds and families that they believed , which ( say the replyers ) doth not imply , that children are here included , or that they believed , this ( i say ) is unsatisfactory ; in as much as , . children may in a sence ( and this very frequent in the scriptures ) be said to believe , i. e. to be in the state and condition of believers , in respect of the love and favor of god , in title to the kingdom of heaven , &c. yea and are by christ himself ( in these respects ) expresly said to believe , mat. . . and , . were it granted , that children are in no sence capable of believing , and in this respect cannot be included , when it is said of whole houses , that they believed ; yet are they as capable of being baptized , or ( as our brethren will needs have it ) of being dipped ( yea in some respect more capable hereof ) as men ; and consequently can upon no tolerable account be thought to be excluded , when it is said of whole houses or families that they were dipped ; as ( for instance ) because , when johns disciples said , and all men come unto him , [ joh. . . ] children must needs be excluded , and not contained in the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , all men , in as much as they were in no capacity of coming ; it doth not follow from hence , that therefore when the apostle saith , that christ by the grace of god tasted death for all men , [ heb. . . ] and so again , that it is appointed for men ( meaning , all men ) once to dye , [ heb. . . ] children must be here excluded also , and not be comprehended in the general term , all men ; in as much as they are as well capable as men , of such a grace , as christs dying for them imports , and so of dying themselves , though they are not capable of coming unto any man to be baptized : . considering , that men ought not to contend with god , or to reject any part of his counsel or will , because it is only somewhat sparingly , and with some scantness of evidence , discovered in his word , but to rest satisfied with that measure or degree of revelation of things , which he judgeth meet to vouchsafe unto them , until further light shall shine : . that they who are dissatisfied with that discovery , which learned paedobaptists make unto them from the scriptures , of the will and mind of god for the baptizing of infants , do readily embrace and entertain many other notions and opinions upon far weaker , and less lightsom grounds of conviction , as viz. the common doctrines or tenents concerning original sin , admission of women to the lords table , the observation of the sabbath on the first day of the week ( yea some of them on the last day , ) the reception of the soul into heaven , and happiness , immediately upon death , ( with many other things , which we shall not now mention , ) not that i mention these with dislike of the common opinion about them all , but only to shew , that as the generality of the jews rejected the true messiah notwithstanding all the true and real miracles which he wrought amongst them , and yet entertained false messiahs one after another , with their counterfeit and lying miracles ; so do the generality of anti-paedobaptists reject infant-baptism , notwithstanding the many real and substantial proofs , by which it is commended and confirmed unto them , in the mean time bowing down their judgments and consciences to such doctrines , which have little but hay and stubble to support them . . ( and lastly ) that god doth expect , that men should dig for the treasure of truth , and of his counsel , even where it lies much deeper under-ground , then infant-baptism doth in several of those texts of scripture , which have been argued by learned men of that judgment , in proof thereof ; yea and hath reproved men for their unmanlike oscitancy , and neglect in this behalf ? peruse and consider diligently these texts and passages at your leasure ( because it would be too long to argue them , ) mat. , , , . mat. . , , , , &c. mat. . , , , &c. luk . , . acts . , . ( to omit others . ) xxv . whether is the practise of demanding , or submitting unto , a baptismal dipping , after a solemn dedication unto the service of jesus christ by a baptismal sprinkling , or ablution , anywhere countenanced in the scriptures , or enjoyned , either by particularity , or expressness of precept or example ? if not , is not the practise of it traditional , and the product of humane discourse , as well , and as much , as the baptizing of infants ? and do not they who practise it , presume every whit as much , or rather far more , upon their own judgments and understandings , in making infant-baptism to be a meer nullity or nothing , the scripture no where giving any such sentence , nor any syllable , letter , or tittle of any such sentence , against it , as they who make it an ordinance of god , or rather ( to speak more properly ) a meet and necessary administration of an ordinance of god ? considering , . that baptism it self , i. e. the external act of baptism , rightly so called , ( whether it be dipping , washing , or sprinkling , is not material to the case now in hand , infants being alike capable of them all ) is by expressness of scripture , an ordinance , or appointment of god ; and . that infants ( at least , of beleevers ) not onely , are no where excluded by god from part and fellowship in the administration , but are in several places and passages more then overtured as the most proper and meet subjects of it ? xxvi . whether , was not a dying the death of the uncircumcised c under the law , and so a being punished with the uncircumcised d , matter of threatning , and an intimation of anger and displeasure in god ; importing , that the lives of uncircumcised persons in the world , were nothing so precious in his sighte , nor so tenderly watched over , nor so carefully protected and preserved by him , as the lives of those who were circumcised ? yea did not the threatning of the uncircumcised man-child , that his soul should be cut off from his people , because he had broken gods covenant , ( gen. . . ) plainly signifie , that children uncircumcised , were much more obnoxious unto the stroke of death from the hand of god , then they would have been , or need to have been , if circumcised ? if then it be supposed , that baptism is altogether as necessary , or of as high esteem with god , under the gospel , as circumcision was under the law , can it reasonably be judged , or thought , that he is as tender and providentially watchful , over the lives of children or others , unbaptized , as he is over the lives of those who are baptized ? and if so , do not they who neglect or refuse , the baptizing of their children , reject the counsel of god against their lives and preservations , depriving them of that interest in the speciall providence of god for their peace and safety , which they might , and ought to , intitle them unto by baptizing them ? and when children unbaptized are taken away by any sudden or strange hand of death , have not the parents just cause to question , whether they were not accessary to their death , by leaving them amongst the unbaptized ones of the world ? xxvii . whether were not the children of israel , notwithstanding the express and strict institution and command of god for the circumcising of the males amongst them on the eight day , blameless under their non-circumcision for forty yeers together , upon the account of that bodily inconvenience and danger , whereunto circumcision , during their journying and travel through the wilderness , would in the eye of reason have exposed them ? or had they not sinned , by tempting the providence of god , if under a pretence , or plea , of the commandment of god for their circumciseing , they had caused either themselves , or their children , to be circumcised , during such their travel , how long soever it had continued ? if so , do not they sin by tempting the providence of god who are authors , either to themselves or others , of being dipped over head and eares in water , where , and when , and whilst , such dipping cannot , both according to the principles of reason , the natural course and operation of second causes , yea , and frequent experience it self , but endanger either their healths , or lives , or both ; yea though this be upon a pretext , or plea , that such dipping is the institution , or command of god ? xxviii . whether doth the requiring of faith , or a profession of faith to be made by men and women in order to their being baptized , by any better consequence prove , that infants without such faith , or profession of faith , ought not to be baptized , then pauls injunction , which he commended to the thessalonians , viz. that if any would not work , neither should he eat a , proveth , that neither ought children to eat , unless they work too , as well as men or women , who are healthfull and strong , and so capable of working ? or then this prohibition of god of old concerning the eating of the paschal lamb , no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof b , proveth , that his intent was , that no person of woman kind , whether yong , or old , though daughters of abraham , and otherwise sanctified , should eat thereof ? xxix . whether , if dipping , or a disposing , or conveying of the whole body under water , be of the essence and necessity of baptism , are not they rather se-baptists , or self-baptisers , then baptised ( according to the order of christ ) by others , who themselves convey or dip under water their whole bodies , leaving onely their heads above the water to be bowed down , forced , or thrust under water , by the baptizer ? or is there either vola or vestigium , little or much of such a practise as this to be found in the scriptures , where they speak of baptism ? or can he in any tolerable sence or construction be said to be the architect , or builder of a turret , or steeple , who onely setteth the weather-cock on the top of it , and not rather he , who buildeth the rest of the body and fabrick hereof ? xxx . whether , is there any particular or express institution of baptism to be found in the scriptures ; i mean , any such institution , as there is of circumcision , and the passover in the old testament , or of the lords supper in the new ; or which prescribeth and determineth all circumstances essentiall unto baptism , as all the other do prescribe and determine all circumstances essentially requisite to their administrations respectively ? if not , do not they {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , make themselves wise above that which is written , & ( constructively ) obtrude upon the consciences of men an institution of their own , in the name of the ordinance and institution of god , who undertake to prescribe and determine , either particularity of subject , or manner of administration , in baptism ? xxxi . whether did not they amongst us , ( or at least the generality , and far greater part of them ) who have accepted and entred into the way of new-baptism , and at present walk in it , receive that precious faith from god , together with all those graces or fruits of the spirit , whereby they are , whatsoever they are in christ , and towards god ; did they not ( i say ) receive all this blessedness from god , under the dispensation of their infant-baptism ? or is there one of a thousand of those ingaged in this new way , who have added so much as the breadth of the least hair of their heads unto their former growth and stature in christ , i do not say , by vertue or means of this their new ingagement , but since , or after it ? or is there not a visible and manifest change for the worse in very many of them , and this ( in all probability ) occasioned by an overweening conceit , that by means of their new baptizing , they are more excellent then their neighbours , and too holy and near unto god to suffer themselves to be numbred amongst the members of other churches ? or do such things as these any way favour or strengthen the claim , which their way of baptizing makes of being a divine ordinance , yea the onely true baptism of god ? xxxii . whether , amongst men and women , whose consciences have at any time been surprized with a religious conceit of a necessity of new baptism , and have accordingly submitted to it , have not the most christianly-meek and humble on the one hand , and the most judicious and learned on the other hand , upon a little experience of this way , grown cool , and very indifferent in their thoughts about it ? yea and many of them repented of their surprizal and weakness in this kind , as johannes o●colampadius , johannes denkius , johannes gaster , men of great learning , worth , and humility , ( with several others ) about luthers dayes ; yea and some of like character , of late amongst our selves , who might be named , if it were necessary or meet ? xxxiii . whether , because baptism is termed the baptism of repentance {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. for , or towards , the remission of sins , ( mar , . . ) doth it a whit more follow that children ought not to be baptized , either because they cannot repent , or because they have no sins to be remitted unto them , then it doth , that children ought not to have been circumcised ; considering that circumcision , the nature of it , and counsell of god in it , considered , may as truly be called , the circumcision of repentance , for the remission of sins , as baptism , the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins ; yea , the apostle paul himself giveth a definition of circumcision , for substance and import of matter , the same with that of baptism , when he calleth it , the seal of the righteousness of faith , ( rom. . . ) and however , children are altogether as uncapable of faith , as they are of repentance ; and have no more need of the righteousness of faith , then they have of remission of sins , these being but one and the same thing ? xxxiv . whether , when the apostle peter speaketh thus to his new converts , acts . , . repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost : for the promise is to you , and to your children , &c. doth he so much enjoyn or exhort them to repent in order to their being baptized , as encourage them both unto the one duty , and the other , upon the account of the promise relating both to them , and their children , and the certainty of its being fulfilled and made good unto them both , upon their repentance , and submission unto baptism , respectively ? and if their title unto , and interest in , the promise , be a ground or motive unto them [ the parents ] to be baptized ; is not the like title and interest , in the children , a ground and motive also why they should be baptized ? xxxv . whether doth god smell the assemblies [ or , in the assemblies ] of those , who judg themselves the onely baptized persons under heaven , with any such pleasure or delight , as he smelleth many the assemblies of those , who are called unbaptized , by the other ? or are the church-meetings of the former filled with the glory and presence of god at any such rate , or to any such degree , as many the holy assemblies of the latter are ? or are there any such manifestations of the spirit , either in gifts , or in graces , in the tabernacles of the baptized , as there are amongst those , who bear the reproach of vnbaptized ? or are the powers of the world to come any wayes so busie , active and stirring in the churches , which call themselves baptized , as they are in many the congregations , which are cast out to the gentiles , as unclean and un-baptized ? or is not that good word of god , ( the scriptures , ) as a sealed book in many the assemblies of the former , whereas even the deep things of god contained in it , are by the holy ghost revealed in many churches of the latter ? or are such differences as these , of no authority , interest , or import , to umpire or decide the controversie depending between the two baptisms ? xxxvi . whether are not children oft-times in scripture comprehended under , or with , their parents , men and women , &c. where they are not expresly mentioned , or named ; and particularly jos. . . cor. . , * even as subjects are under the names of their kings , and families and descents , under the names of their heads ? &c. yea , are not both women and children to be understood , where men only are named ? ( see mark . . joh. . . compared with mat. . . ) if so , doth not this argument or plea against infant-baptism , halt right-down ; in the scriptures we find no mention of the baptizing of children , either by christ , or his apostles , or any others : therefore no children were baptized by them ? indeed if we could here find no mention of the baptizing either men , or women , then the non-finding any mention neither of children baptized , were an argument of some authority and credit to prove , that there was none of this capacity , or age , baptized . xxxvii . whether , in case it could be proved ( which yet hath not been proved , nor , i am full of belief , ever will be , the proofs lying much more strong and pregnant for it , then against it ) that there were no children baptized during the apostles days , doth it by any whit better consequence follow from hence , that therefore children ought not now to be ( or might not then , as to point of simple lawfulness , have been ) baptized , then from the non-circumcising of the jewish children for forty years together ( jos. . . ) viz , during the whole time of their journeying through the wilderness , it follows , that neither ought they to have been circumcised afterwards , especially considering , . that there may be many more , and more weighty , reasons ( though possibly unknown unto us ) why neither christ , nor his apostles , should baptize children in their days , though the lawfulness , yea and necessity of their baptizing , at other times , and in some cases , be supposed , then there was why the israelites should omit the circumcising of their children for those forty years together , which were specified ; and , . that the apostle paul saith , that he was not sent to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; [ meaning , that baptizing , whether personally , or by commissioning or delegating others hereunto , was not only not the principal , but not any considerable end of his sending , but the publishing and preaching of the gospel , ] for if he was not sent to baptize [ meaning , neither one age , nor one sex , or other , ] neither could he be sent to baptize children ; and if he was not sent to baptize , either one , or other , [ in the sence declared , ] neither was the lord christ himself , nor the rest of the apostles sent about this work ( in such a sence , ) what marvel then is it , that persons sent about matters incomparably greater and more weighty , should not be so throughly intent upon things of a secondary and lighter consequence , as to prosecute them to the uttermost of what they lawfully might , yea and in case of a lighter burthen upon their shoulder in those more important affairs , had been bound to do ? or are there not many cases , wherein a man may break a law , [ i. e. a standing law , or a law provided for ordinary cases ] and yet be blameless ? yea and some cases , wherein he may do it with commendation ? see mat. . , , . cor. . , , . joh. . . xxxviii . whether is not that principle , or humor , in the children of new baptism , of making such sacred treasure hereof as generally they do , estimating christianity it self , and acceptance with god , by it , counting all persons unclean and unholy , and not meet for church-communion , who submit not unto it &c. thus making gods nothing , their all things ; is not this humor ( i say ) the express character of such persons in all ages , who have unduly , and without cause , broken the bands of unity , love , and peace , wherein they had been sometimes bound up in a sweet bundle of christianity with other churches , to walk in some crooked and by-way of particular choyce by themselves , to the offence , grief , and reproach of those churches , from which , upon such an account , they rent themselves ? or did not eunomius the heretique , who maintained this doctrine ( by way of dissent from the churches of christ ) that the son of god is altogether unlike the father , and the holy ghost unlike the son , notwithstanding the groundlessness and erroneousness of it , yet attribute this high and sacred priviledg unto it , that whosoever believed it could not possibly perish , how wickedly soever he lived a ? or did not the donatists ascribe all christian worth and excellency to their sect and opinions , denying that there was any true church of christ in all the world , but only amongst them , and despising all other christians , but themselves , and yet giving entertainment to most vile and wicked men in their communion b , as if the giving of the right hand of fellowship unto them in their way , rendered men religious and holy , in the midst of the practice of all wickedness ? or did not theophanes attribute so much to the use of images in religious worship , that he censured constantine the emperor ( by-named , copronymus ) as an apostate from god , for opposing images , and idol-worship c ? or did not some jewish teachers labor to possess men with such an high opinion of their tradition and practice of washing hands before meat , as that they ought to look upon him , who should neglect or not observe it , as one that lieth with an harlot d ? or did not the author and abettors of that hideous doctrine , that god seeth no sin in persons justified , pronounce all those traytors to the blood of christ , that held the contrary e ? or did not the monks , who ( generally ) were the compilers of the histories of this nation in former times , place so much of the very essence ( as it were ) of religion , in reverencing bishops and monks of these times , that ( as daniel , a late english historian observeth ) they personated all their princes , either religious , or irreligious , as they humored , or offended , the bishops rochet , and the monks belly f ? or did not theodore the abbot , give this advice to a monk , who ( as himself informed the said abbot ) was threatened by the devil , that he would never cease vexing and molesting him by temptations unto fornication , until he left worshiping the image of the blessed virgin ; did not ( i say ) this abbot give this advice to the monk in his case , that it were better that he frequented all the stews in the city , then not to worship christ and his mother in an image g ? or do not all these instances ( with many more that might be added unto them , of like consideration ) plainly shew and prove , that to conceit and speak glorious things , of any private opinion , or by-practice , is an argument of very great probability ( at least ) that this , both opinion , and practice , are mens own , or from themselves , and not from god , or agreeable unto his word ? or are there not several grounds , and these near at hand , very material and weighty , to strengthen this conjecture ? yea and when the apostle peter saith , that those that are unlearned and unstable , pervert , or wrest , the scriptures , to their own destruction , doth not this great danger or misery arise from hence , that they who do wrest the scriptures , are inordinately conceited of , and confidently rest and build upon , such notions , sences , and opinions , which are engendered and begotten in their minds or consciences , by this scripture-wresting ? xxxix . whether , is not the testimony of that worthy , zealous , and learned martyr mr john philpot ( recorded in a letter written by him to a freind of his , a prisoner in newgate at the same time ) worthy credit and beliefe , wherein he affirms , that auxentius , an arrian heretique , ( with his adherents ) was one of the first that denyed the baptism of children , and next after him , pelagius the heretique ? or can augustin be suspected , at least by those who have any competent knowledg of his unparallel'd candor and ingenuity , to speake any thing but the truth , when he saith that the baptizing of infants was a custom of the christian church in his days , salubriter firmata , wholsomely ratified and confirmed a : in another place , that the universal church of christ always held , or retained the custom of baptizing children even from the apostles , and that it was not instituted by any council ; and that no christian would say that children were impertinently , or in vain baptized b ( with much more to like purpose . ) or is not the testimony of ierome worthy to be received , who affirmeth , that he ( with the orthodox christians in his days ) held one baptism , which they affirmed ought to be administred in the same sacramental words unto infants , and those of riper years . c xl . whether can it proved from the scriptures , or by any argument whatsoever , that either faith , or a profession , of faith , is either the only , or the best ground , either divisim or conjunctim , whereon to build a baptismal administration ? or whether did not the apostles and those who baptized by their direction and order in their days , insist upon believing , and profession of believing , with men and women , who were willing , or desirous , to be baptized , onely for want of better , and of better assured grounds , whereon to proceed to the baptizing of such persons ? or did they insist upon either of these qualifications , in reference to the said administration , simply and meerly , as , or because , they were such , or in respect of their positive and absolute nature , and not rather , in respect of their relative natures , or properties , viz. as they were significative , or declarative unto them [ the baptizers ] and unto others , of the happy estate of those in whome they were found , as being persons in grace and favour with god ? otherwise , how could the lord christ himself , having no such faith , as that which the apostles and their baptists required ( together with the profession of it ) in those , whom they baptized , be a meet or duly qualified subject of this administration ? or will any man presume to say , that he was baptized , either contrary unto , or besides , the rule , or mind of god , touching persons meet to be baptized , especially when as himself renders this account why he submitted himself unto , and desired , biptism , viz. that it became him to fulfil all righteovsnes a ? and besides , is it not altogether irrational to imagine or think , that faith should be required in order unto baptism , simply for faiths sake ? or profession of faith , meerly for this professions sake ? or that god , or christ , should enjoyn a requirement of them upon such a slender account as this ? or that they would ever have been nominated by them for qualifications unto baptism in men and women , unless they had been so significative or declarative , as hath been said , i mean , of the gracious acceptance of such persons , in whom they are , with god ? yea or unless they had been declarative in this kind , upon the best terms , whereof persons newly converted from ways of sin unto god , are capable , there being no other way , or means , more effectual or proper for such persons to make known their standing , or being , in the favor of god , unto others , then by a profession of their believing in jesus christ ; how ever it be most true , that even such declarations as these , many times deceive those , who accept of them , and trust to them , though without sin in those , who are so deceived ? now then , if faith , and profession of faith , qualifie for baptism , meerly in respect of their relation , and as they report ( with such credit as appertains to them , and is meet to be given them by men ) the persons in whom they are , and from whom they proceed , to be in an estate of grace and favor with god , is it not as evident as the sun at noon day , that all persons of mankind , who are , or may be known by more assured testimonies and declarations , then any mans own profession of his own faith amounts unto , to be in the same , or like grace and favor with god , to be every whit as regularly , and as compleatly qualified for baptism , as the greatest and loudest professors of their faith under heaven ? if so , are not infants and children before the commission of actual sin , to whom god himself hath given a loud and express testimony from heaven , that they are in grace and favor with him , and that to them , and such as they are , belongeth the kingdom of heaven , &c. are they not ( i say ) upon this account fully declared to be , not only or simply , regular and meet subjects of baptism , but subjects in this kind of the highest , and most unquestionable qualifications ? for by one spirit [ not by one , or the same , water , or dipping ] we are all baptized into one body . cor. . . what therefore god hath joyned together , let no man put asunder . matt. . . baptismus sine impietatis scelere contēmni nequit : & gravissimam reprehensionem coràm deo & hominibus merentur , qui tantum beneficium differunt , vel sibi , vel suis liberis accipere . b●za opusc. p. . tingimus pueros , tingimus provectioris aetatis : — nullam aetatem praecepit baptismo christus , sed neque ullam vetuit , ecclesiae norlingensis pastores . scultet . annal. anno . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a gal ▪ . . b cor. . . c cor. . . v● . cameron . myroth . p. . & ambross●m in locum . i know the place is much vexed with interpreters and interpretations , but certain i am that the sence here supposed and argued upon , is the m●st grammatical , and best comporting with the propriety of he words and phrase● . a sam. . a matt. . a acts . a matt. . a tim. . b tit. . . a cor. . a gal. . . u●de multi post baptismum proficientes , & maxime qui infantes vel pueri baptizati sunt , &c. aug. de baptismo contra donatistas lib. . c. . d exod. . similia similium occupait nomina . hur . grot. in act. . multa offi●mantur simpliciter & formaliter , quae per equivalentiam seu comparationem tantum sunt intelligenda : vid. ●ai , . . tim. . matt. . rom. , , &c. c ezek. . . , . . . . d jer. . . ezek. . ● sam. . , . a thes. . . b exod. . . vide scultet . annal. anno , & , &c. * see also mat : : : & : : ( besides many others . ) a eunomius — defendit hanc haeresin , dissimilem per omnia pa●r● asse●ens filium , & filio spiritum sanctum . fertur etiam usque adeo fuisse bonis moribus inimicus , ut asseveraret , quod nihil cuique obesset quorumlibet perpetratio ac perseverantia peccator rum , si hujus , quae ab il o docebatur , fidei particeps effet . aug. de haeres . c. b nam illi [ donatistae ] dicebant universum orbem christianum ecclesiam non habere — deinde , qui prae le omnes alios christianos condemnabant , severitatem censurae in suos relaxaverant , & in suis coetibus homines impurissimos , ut optato● , gildoniano● , primianosque patiebantur . p. mar●y● , loc. class. . c. . sect. . c theophanes miscel. . l. . c. ult , & joseph mede , apostacy of latter times . p. d ainsworth in levit. . e p. gunter , sermon of justification , printed anno . preface to the reader , p. . f smectymnuus vindicat. p . g mede , apostacy of latter times , p. a de peccatonum meritis &c. lib. . c. . b quod traditum cenet universitas ecclesi●… . cum parvuli infantes baptizantur , nullus christianorum dixerit eos inaniter baptizari . et si quisquam in hac re authoritatem divinam quaerat , quanquam quod universa tenet ecclesia , nec conciliis institutum , sed semper retentum est , non nisi authoritate apostolica traditum rectissime creditur , tamen veraciter continere possumus quid valeat in parvulis baptismi sacramentum ex circumcisione carnis , quam prior populus accepit , &c. aug. de baptismo contra donat. l. . c. . c baptisma unum tenemus , quod iisdem sacramenti verbis in insantibus , quibus etiam in majoribus , asserimus esse celebrandum . hieron. t. . symboli explan. . ad dama●um . a mat. . that children are in favor with god , and so declared , see briefly redemp. . redeemed , p. , , . three hymnes, or certain excellent new psalmes, composed by those three reverend, and learned divines. mr. john goodwin, mr. dasoser [sic] powel, and mr. appletree. sung in their respective congregations, at stephens coleman-streete, london, and at mary abchurch, on thursday the . of october, . being a day set a part for the total routing of the scots army in musleborough-field, by his excellency the l. gen. cromwel. licensed according to order, and published for the general use and benefit of all the saints of jesus christ, in england, scotland, and ireland. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t c thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) three hymnes, or certain excellent new psalmes, composed by those three reverend, and learned divines. mr. john goodwin, mr. dasoser [sic] powel, and mr. appletree. sung in their respective congregations, at stephens coleman-streete, london, and at mary abchurch, on thursday the . of october, . being a day set a part for the total routing of the scots army in musleborough-field, by his excellency the l. gen. cromwel. licensed according to order, and published for the general use and benefit of all the saints of jesus christ, in england, scotland, and ireland. appletree, mr. powell, vavasor, - . goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by john clowes, london : . annotation on thomason copy: "nouemb: ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng hymns, english -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no three hymnes,: or certain excellent new psalmes, composed by those three reverend, and learned divines. mr. john goodwin, mr. dasoser [sic] appletree, mr. a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion three hymnes , or certain excellent new psalmes , composed by those three reverend , and learned divines . mr. john goodwin , mr. dasoser powel , and mr. appletree . sung in their respective congregations , at stephens coleman-streete , london , and at mary abchurch , on thursday the . of october , . being a day set a part for the total routing of the scots army in musleborough-field , by his excellency the l. gen. cromwel . licensed according to order , and published for the general use and benefit of all the saints of jesus christ , in england , scotland , and ireland . london , printed by john clowes , . three hymnes that were sung on thursday the . of october . being a day set a part for the total routing of the scots army in musleborough field , under the command of lieut. gen. david lesley , by the lord general cromwells forces . i. sung by mr. john goodwin , in st. stephens coleman-streete church . ii. sung by mr. vasoser powel , at st. mary abchurch . iii. the third sonnge by mr. appletree , at mr. john goodwins church in coleman-streete , after the sermon in the afternoon . mr. john goodwins hymn . . prepair , make ready , oh ye saints jehovah is come down , to you and on your heads to set salvation as a crown . . into your mouths a song he has put . a song of praise , to him , to give , a song of joy great store . . look , see and behold , how like himself hee 's come to visit you , he came down , the lofty heavens he made to stoop and to bow . . with zeal all clad , as with a cloake , with vengeance garments dyed , a helmet of salvation he wore upon his head . . of righteousness jehovah-like a brest-plate he put on , and thus in fury great he falls your enemies upon . . and home then repays them all the wrong which they unjustly had , unto you done , and threatned more to do as they were mad . . those northern mountains which themselves had lifted up so high , with opened mouths against the heavens their strength to magnifie . . with heat of indignation he melted at your feete , and to your armies gave the strength their forts and glory great . . they fled they ran , they made great hast from the presence of your god , when he is angrie with his foes there is no safe abode . . one chast man a thousand can pursue ten thousand put to fight , for god was in the midst of you and taught your hands to flight . . and in their heads unrighteousness and cruel councels were , which caused their hearts to sink like stones their hands hung down for fear . . they fled they ran , they wondered here and there seeking to hide , their guilty heads in holes of death lest they should be discry'd . . for great were the numbers they had enough by sword to dye , enough to run , enough to come , into captivity . . great were the multitudes they had thousands by sword to dye , thousands to run , thousands to come , into captivity . . they fled , they ran , but lost the spoyl to be divided by , them of the houshold they despise and drawn to slavery . . they fled , they ran , right sore afraid to come into deaths bonds , your legs redeem'd your feebled knees of their dismai'dd hands . . they fled , they ran beyond the line of their latter confidence , the forrest of the land and sea they left to your conscience . . they fled , they ran , but they soon wheel and chains they left behind , with their deforrm'd devotion your liberties to bind . . oh you redeemed of the lord to whom the silver wings , and golden feathers of the dove are now given to your mind . . who are delivered from making pitts and diudging in the clay , for whose blest sakes kings scattered are and turned out of the way . . of their swolne thoughts and proud desires are sent to the wilderness , to seek a way where no way is to free you from distress . . you whose task-masters fierce & cruel your glorious lord hath troubled , and in performance of your power their shame and sorrow doubled . . for that with inlarged hearts and heightrod streams of spirit , you love and fear him all your days and cause him to inherit . . the praises of the earth in words where ere you come and go , no rest accept of yours gave spirits until the world shall know . . by your good words & works relate the goodness of the lord , make the world unto your feast you blessedness afford . . give plenty of it unto those who feed in misery , and know not how to serve the lord in their free liberty . . thus let thy enemies o lord thus let thy enemies perish , but if that love thy glorious for ever let them perish . finis . mr. powels hymne . . to christ the only king of saints be praise eternally , which gave his souldiers great honour and kingly victory . . whom satan would wisely subdue to those which are his enemies , lest therefore offer unto him a willing secrasie . . for he in love laid down his life and for us shed his blood , to reconcile us to god who is our best belov'd . . and doth adopt us to himself his children for to be , and hath given us his free grace and excellent glory . . the lord also , his saints exalt that they on high do raigne , and makes our enemies to know that christ is our soveraigne . . the pope , the priest , the anti-christ the kings do quake for fear , for christ into his throne doth come his glory doth appear . . awake , arise , ô king ô lord let all thy proud foes fall , then we which are thy church on earth will honour thy great name . . come quickly , come lord jesus christ thy saints do waite and stay , to see thy kingdome here on earth and to behold thine eyes , . the glory and the victories which thou of late didest give , doth move us for to praise thy name and for thee to be belov'd . . that we being thy thy people all and saints , with one accord , shall with all hope and courrage free sing praise to thee ó lord . finis . mr. appletrees hymn . . let god arise , now up he is as all the world may see , to take his peopls part , wherefore , march to revenge all we . . that worke which did occasion us this day to set apart , so great it is , it to discribe no man hath got the art . . our enemies which in battel fell long since us threaten did , us to anoy which did procure our armys march with speed . . from london , and from other parts where they well quartered were , to seeke and for to find out those that sought to worke our snare . . before they went , to god they call'd whose cause they were to plead , to the church they also sent that they would intercead . . that so together , they might prevail with god so them to direct , to guid them in his ways their persons to protect . . when they had passed by barwick and towards haddington did come , thy saints did sing , in gladness they would fight with all and some . . our armies , they prudentially did seeke that place to gaine , where siting down , they waited long to fight , but all in vain . . much hardship they did undergo their enemies for to find , but those men that make great hoast to engage had no mind . . to musleborough the enemy came our armies for to outbrave , upon our works immediatly sought something to atchive . fifteen select troops of the church all covenanters sore , came trooping forth , and some did swear that cromwells honour to prove . . dead or alive their prisoner some cry'd they would him bring , and offer him a sacrifice unto their new-made king . . but god our lord who heard their brags them disappointed there , our army there did many kill the rest all ran for feare . . their horse , their speare the lord did break great mischief to prevent , their further hurt did make to cease their deeds for to repent . . our noble general also sought with love them to overcome , professing that nothing they did should his intentions turn . . but nothing could with them prevail to stay them from the same , though fight they durst not at all until they had their aym . . and brought us to such straights that we no way escape could make , but must yield to their tearms and glad what they would give to take . . then god appear'd himself and did our souldiers courage raise , and gave them victory so great for which wee 'l give him praise . . as in the days of sisera the starrs for us did fight , the moon to them was darkened but gave to us her light . . foure thousand kill'd was on the place ten thousand prisoners were , their bag and baggage they forsook and did their ordnance spare . their cullers they did leave behind in number great to see , edenborough & leith they also quit and did to sterling flee . . in which they trust to this day their king and covenant , not fully able them to free as all the world may grant . . but we will trust and praise our god that this great work hath wrought , that in our strength delivered us when we by prayer did seek . finis . a quære concerning the church-covenant practised in the separate congregations sent with a letter thereunto annexed, from j.g. to t.g., wherein is proved that there is much evill and manifold inconveniences in the exacting and urging such a covenant. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing g ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a quære concerning the church-covenant practised in the separate congregations sent with a letter thereunto annexed, from j.g. to t.g., wherein is proved that there is much evill and manifold inconveniences in the exacting and urging such a covenant. goodwin, john, ?- . t. g. [ ], p. for john bellamie and ralph smith, and are to be sold at their shop ..., printed at london : . signed: j.g. attributed to john goodwin. cf. nuc pre- . "imprimatur, ja. cranford" reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. eng covenants (church polity) a r (wing g ). civilwar no a quære, concerning the church-covenant, practised in the separate congregations. sent with a letter thereunto annexed, from j.g. to t.g. wh goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a qvaere , concerning the chvrch-covenant , practised in the separate congregations . sent with a letter thereunto annexed , from j. g. to t. g. wherein is proved that there is much evill and manifold inconveniences in the exacting and urging such a covenant . jmprimatur , ja. cranford printed at london for john bellamie and ralph smith , and are to be sold at their shop , at the three golden lions in cornhill neare the royall exchange . . a quaere concerning the church-covenant , practised in the separate congregation by what warrant of scripture or otherwise , can any church of christ impose any such expresse and formall covenant upon those that desire membership with them , as a peremptory condition of their admittance , as is now generally practised in all your churches ; we conceive the scripture no where justifieth these proceedings , but rather judge there is much evill , and manifold inconveniences in the exacting and urging such a covenant . first , confident we are ( as confidence it selfe can make us ) that there is no commandement given to the churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to bee admitted into church-fellowship with them , so that we conceive any such exaction to bee a meere humane invention , and a straine of that wisedome that desires not only to exalt it selfe above all that is practised by men , but above that which is written by god himselfe ; yea , though instances & examples could be produced of such covenants both demanded and given , yet this may stand without any warrant of lawfulnesse , much more without the imposition of any necessity upon churches at this day to make the like demand of their intended members ; and most of all it may stand without any necessity lying upon churches , to make the demand as of a duty of absolute necessitie . first , no example bindeth but by vertue , and in the strength of some commandement , & if there were any thing necessary to be done which is not commanded by god , then must there be found weakenesse & imperfection in his law ; therefore to make any thing necessary which the law of god maketh not necessary , is not to keepe the law , but ( as james saith ) to judge it . secondly , there be examples found of many things done by many christians ( yea by whole churches ) in the primitive times , not onely lawfully but with high and speciall approbation , the doing whereof in these times is not onely no wayes necessary , but lyable to much question , whether lawfull or convenient . the selling of lands and houses , by those that were the possessors of them , and bringing and laying downe the money at the apostles feet , was practised ( we know ) in the apostles times , act. . , . and as tertullian witnesseth , continued . yeeres together in the church . but i know no man now that pleads for the necessity of any such practice , yea whether it would not bee much inexpedient for the gospell , ( and consequently in some degrees unlawfull ) if now put in practice , a few thoughts would sufficiently discover . thirdly , and lastly , there is no question to be made , but that many times the diversification of circumstances , and aspects of things in the world , and course of gods providence , have not onely a lawfull power of dissolving the binding force and authority of many examples , but of suspending our obedience to many rules , precepts , and exhortations : as for example , that kinde of salutation betweene men mentioned , gen. . . sam , . . and oft elsewhere , being generally left and out of use ; those injunctions of paul , rom. . . cor. . . and elsewhere , greet yea one another with an holy kisse , impose no such literality upon the saints in these dayes as they did , when they were written ; neither doe i conceive ( nor i suppose you ) that the elders of the church are now bound to annoint the sick with oyle , because this is commanded , james . . neither doe i conceive that the french churches lye under any guilt of sin , for suffering their teachers to have their heads covered in their publicke ministry notwithstanding that rule or direction of paul , cor. . . every man praying or preaching having any thing on his head , dishonoureth his head , because that topicall custome amongst the grecians , upon which paul built this rule or assertion , is wholly disused by their nation , and the contrary generally practised amongst them . though i doe not thinke this scripture is to be restrained to the teacher only , but to concerne as well the whole assembly of men present , who are all here said to pray or prophecy in a passive sense , ( as women also are ) that is , to partake of these ordinances with the teacher : other like instances might be given . and doubtlesse the rule that cameron gives , who was a man of as much learning , sharpenesse of wit , and happinesse in opening the scriptures as any the reformed churches in france , yea i may say in any part of the world have enjoyed of latter times , is most true . there are many things commanded in pauls epistles , whereof there is no use at this day , ( viz. as touching the literall and precise observation ) as is that of prophecying , cor. . and concerning the habit of women prophecying , which belong not to our times ; but concerning prophecying wee shall god willing move some speciall quere's afterward . and i verily beleeve , that one maine reason and grand occasion of all separation from us , ( on that hand you are gone ) is , because the words of the sacred text fitted to particular occasions , and to the condition of the times wherein they were written , are taken and applyed by such men to themselves and others , as they find them , without due respect had to those weighty and materiall differences that are between one and the other : as might be demonstrated at large , ( if it were any part of our present purpose . ) in the meane time evident it is by what hath beene said , that though particular instances could be produced , wherein the covenant so much magnified , so indispensably urged by your churches ( generally ) upon their members before their particular admission , yea by some masters of your way defended in writing as the very forme and essence of a true church , ( the writing here hath gone a long time under your owne name , but of late i heare you have disclaimed it ) hath beene practised by former churches and put upon those which desired membership with them , yet there is no sufficient ground to conclude a necessity now lying upon all churches to doe the like , except there be a precept or command found for the doing of it , no nor yet to prove a lawfulnesse of doing it , except circumstances lye cleare and faire for the doing it , nay a precept or command it selfe will not evince a necessity hereof , if any master or grand circumstance be now changed or altered , upon which the precept was given : but yet notwithstanding i adde , in the second place , neither doe the scriptures afford any instance or example , wherein any such covenant hath ever been demanded or exacted by any particular church of those who desired fellowship with it : but many instances there are wherein onely upon a sober profession of their faith in christ and entertainement of the gospell , men have beene received into churches without the least noise or mention of any such covenant . act. . . they that gladly received his word were baptized , and the same day there were added unto [ the church ] about three thousand soules : some of your judgements strongly conceite that they espy their covenant in these words [ were added ; ] but surely if they were assisted by the same imagination they might as soone discover it in those words , gen. . in the beginning god made heaven and earth ; for to any reasonable and disingaged apprehension , that word [ were added ] with the number of converts joyned with it , onely expresseth the exceeding great worke of god , in making so great an enlargement or addition to his church in so short a time : and doubtlesse a man must get a dispensation for his understanding , to enable him to thinke or beleeve that within the compasse of halfe a day , or little more at the most , perhaps somewhat lesse , ( for the former part of the day was well spent before peter began his sermon , vers. . and how long he continued the preaching is uncertain , it seemes he was not very briefe , vers. . ) three thousand persons should particularly and distinctly one after another in the same place and before the same persons being examined and tryed , take a solemne covenant repeating the contents and words thereof ; doubtlesse the art and method of such dispatch is utterly lost and perished at this day , either the covenant they made was very briefe , and but an act to yours , or else the motion of their tongues in speaking was much swifter then our thoughts : you must favour your selfe beyond al reason in both these suppositions , or else suppose no longer your covenant here . besides evident it is , that these that were added to the church , were baptized before ; this is affirmed of them : now being baptized , and that in an orderly and right way , as you will not deny , this did immediately qualifie them for church fellowship according to your owne grounds , and the truth it selfe , therefore they needed not the mediation of a covenant to make them capable hereof : so that you see an impossibility of any covenant to be emplyed here . and if you be not relieved at this doore , there is little hopes to find more charity in this kind at others : philip required no other covenant or condition of the eunuch to qualifie him for baptisme , and thereby to give him entrance into the church , but onely to beleeve in the lord jesus with all his heart , and to professe it to him , act. . . when saul assayed to joyne himselfe with the disciples at hierusalem , act. . . the reason why they declined him for a time , was not because they tendered a covenant to him and he refused it , but because they were all afraide of him and beleeved not that he was a disciple ; implying that had they beleeved this concerning him that he had beene a disciple , a beleever , they would have received him without any more adoe ; yea upon barnabas his meere testimony of him without any covenant subscribed , confession made , or word spoken by himselfe , he was received , vers. . . so againe act. . . there is mention made of many that were added or joyned to the lord , i. e. were immembred into the church , but no more words of any such covenant as you urge , then a deafe man may heare : if you peruse the passages of the new testament further , you will espie many more starres of the constellation , neither can you here have recourse to those covenants mentioned in the old testament , ezra . . nehem. . . to patterne you withall , for then you flee to a sanctuary which your selfe have polluted , by destroying all sympathy and agreement betweene a nationall church and that which you call instituted or particular : and besides to forsake the guidance of the spirit of god under the new testament , to seeke to make out our thoughts by the old , is to aske the twilight in the evening , whether it were light at noone day . moreover if desire of brevity ( for the present ) did not binde my hands , it were easie to demonstrate unto you what a solemne disagreement there is many wayes betweene these covenants and yours , and particularly in that precise circumstance which must have relieved you . . to me there is no imaginable use or necessity of this your covenant , because beleevers , willing , or agreeing , to live together in the same body are bound by greater bonds a thousand fold then any covenant they can make betweene themselves , to performe mutually all , and all manner of love , service and christian duties whatsoever , christ himselfe is the greatest of bands and of all manner of obligements or ingagements whatsoever both to knit and hold christians together , and to make them of one heart and of one soule , and to keepe them so : by whom ( by christ ) all the body being coupled and knit together by every joynt , &c. ephes. . . and where the scripture speakes of other bands with him and besides him , ( yet all relating to him ) indearing and binding christians together as close as ever their hearts and soules will packe or worke into one , amongst them all your covenant commeth not into any mention or remembrance , there is one body , one spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your vocation , there is one lord , one faith , one baptisme , one god and father of all ; surely if they had beene joyned and joynted together by any such covenant as you speake of , and this covenant beene of divine justification , and of that high and soveraigne consequence as to give them their very life , being and subsistence as a church or body , the apostle could not have so farre forgot himselfe as not to have inventoried it amongst its fellowes , especially there being no place ( that i can readily call to mind ) more commodious throughout all his writings to have made a particular and an expresse mention hereof then here : and for my part i freely and ingenuously and in the simplicity of my heart professe unto you , that i neither know what further or greater duty or service of love in any kind i can desire or wish of those my brethren in christ , upon whom the providence of god together with my owne voluntary election either hath or hereafter shall cast me in church-fellowship , then what they stand bound by the common band of our mutuall interest in the same god , in the same lord , in the same baptisme , in the same faith , in the same hope , &c. to exhibit , tender , and performe unto mee without the expresse of any such covenant made with or unto me ; nor yet can i conceive how possibly i should have any better , richer or stronger assurance from them for the performance hereof unto me by the vertue or aide of any such covenant above what i have by the power of that grace and godlinesse which ( as farre as i am able to judge ) worketh effectually in them , and subjecteth them to all the said bands and obligations ; nor can i thinke that he whose strength to doe evill will serve to trample under feet the blood of the lord christ , to cast the commandements of the glorious god behind his backe to betray the hope of his owne peace and glory , will ever be kept in a christian compasse towards me by any promise , band , or covenant of his owne , i know not how to thinke it a sinne in me not to desire or exact a greater securitie for my portion in the saints then god himselfe hath given me , and established me in : i heare your answer bee , that your covenant respecteth as well every mans faithfulnesse towards god as discharge of dutie towards one another , and therefore in this regard ( at least ) there may be a necessitie of it . to this i make answer in few words ; first , why is not then the unnecessary part , at least of your covenant ( which i conceive is the greatest ) viz. that which concernes the covenanters dutie towards his fellow struck off ? secondly , if such a covenant as this , with or towards god bee so necessary a dutie , why is the place of it no where to be found amongst all the commandements of god ? doubtlesse god requires it not at our hands , to be either more provident or zealous for his glory then he is himselfe . thirdly and lastly , it is neither lawfull before baptisme , nor necessary after ; therefore the necessitie of it falls to the ground , and is not defensible ; that it is not lawfull before baptisme is evident , because it is not lawfull for a church to receive the unbaptized into fellowship with them as members of that body , neither is there example or appearance of warrant in scripture for such a thing . as evident it is that after baptisme it is altogether unnecessary , because baptisme doth immediately qualifie , for church fellowship , ( as hath beene sayd , your owne principles not gainesaying ) and the church it selfe , by admitting any to her baptisme , ( ipso facto ) admits into her fellowship and communion . therefore i adde : . that the requiring and exacting of such a covenant of men , and the imparting of church fellowship upon it , i conceive it to be an unchristian usurpation upon the consciences of men , and a tempting of god , by laying such a burden upon his people , which he must give strength ( more then otherwayes were necessary ) to beare , or otherwise they must suffer ( at least ) ( if not fall ) under it ; and i beleeve , i know some worthy every wayes of the honour ( according to the line of men ) who desirous of entrance into some of your churches were turned back , by dislike of that new doore of your covenant . . and lastly , we conceive the exacting and giving of such a covenant is not onely a thing unnecessary {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as something above any thing that is written , but of worse inconvenience also , ( at least , as many of those that are ingaged in it , are wont to interpret and draw the importance hereof ) for many looke upon a covenant they have made with a particular church as a partition wall wholly to separate them in care , affection , dependance , and from all other churches and the saints of god throughout the world , and take it for an authenticall discharge , and release from heaven from troubling themselves any wayes with the affaires of other churches as ministring unto their necessities at any times . it was not much short of this which a great defender of you faith professed plainely unto me not long since , and that before some witnesses . calvin well observes upon rom. . . that pauls study and desire was by his carefull remembrance and sending the mutuall salutations and greeting of one church to another , quantum in se est , mutuo amoris nexu devincire inter se omnia christi membra : as far as it lay in his power , to bind all members of christ whatsoever in one and the same mutuall band of affection together . now if paul herein did the will and commandement of god , ( which i cannot thinke you will deny ) then as your saviour charged the scribes and pharisees , that they had made the commandement of god of none effect ( they had taken a course to doe it , they had done that which directly tended thereunto ) by their traditions , so ( we conceive ) we may justly challenge your covenant for an ill looke , or maligne aspect , upon that part of the will of god , wherein he desires that all beleevers , the world over should desire to maintaine a free intercourse of the dearest love and tenderest affections one towards another . a letter sent from i. g. to t. g. my deare friend , whom i love and honour , if not enough , yet ( certaine i am ) very exceeding much in the lord , i am sorry there being differences betweene us otherwise , that in this wee should so perfectly and so long agree , neither to send so much as a small peece of his minde to other for a love-token ; upon which of us the law of love and christian acquaintance rather imposed it , to have first appeared in breaking this agreement , the same law prohibites to dispute . whether it will ease the burthen on my part or no , i leave to your ingenuitie to consider and determine ; but this i may truely say unto you , that i have had many thoughts from time to time since your departure from us , that have deerely longed after your bosome , and would hardly have beene kept from their longing till now , but by a strong hand of some indispensable occasions , and imployments otherwise ; and if my respects unto you did not command me to intreat you more gently in this behalfe , i might truely charge upon your selfe ( in part ) the occasion of my silence hitherto , your authority , grace , learning , parts , judgement & example , have made the stone of separation among us so massie and heavy that we are constrained to be at double paines and labour in removing and rolling it from the consciences of men . a great part of our imployment is to stanch the issue of that fountaine of blood , which you ( i presume in simplicity of heart for your part ) have opened in the wombe of our churches here ; wee hoping againe your re-union with us and returne unto us , through the power of our lord jesus christ who is is able to give you light to comprehend your darkenesse in those things lying yet under dispute betweene us , are willing to save you what sorrow we can against the time of your returne , and for this purpose endeavour our selves to make your mistakes as innocent as may be , and to keepe as many as we can from falling thereby . deare brother that there were a heart in us to lay our heads together to finde out ( if possible ) some course that the sword may not alwayes thus devoured doubtlesse there are waters to be found that will much asswage the heate , if not wholly quench the flames of these contentions and divisions . how greatly is it to be lamented that he by whom god hath reconciled the world to himselfe , should be made a meanes of dividing this reconciled world between themselves ! the heavens ( i doubt not ) will accord us , yet were it our greater comfort and glory if they might be prevented herein by the earth . i verily beleeve it would strike a great stroake in compremising this contention , if the great men and chiefe leaders on both sides could be perswaded but to take fast hold upon this free and noble resolution , which yet i suppose we all intend to doe , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , rather to do sacrifice to the truth then to be in bondage to suppostions . i know not how to open my mouth wide enough to shew you the inlargement of my heart unto you , if wee saw the truth clearely with you , you should not raigne alone , wee would doubtlesse at once divide such a kingdome with you . many indeed of your partie are ready to say in effect , that as it is heaven that separated you from us , so it is the world that separates us from you : but if you have the truth with you ( which indeed if you have at least in many of your beloved maximes , woe to my wits , reason and understanding ; never poore man so strangely misused by such friends in this world ) it would never bee a debtor to such interpretors or agents for it . as for the world , if it be as little on that side the sea as it is on this , it will never be so much as a moate in your eye to hinder you from seeing any truth of god clearely . but as little as it is with us , we thinke it too great and too good to be sacrificed upon the service of an errour at any time . otherwise i doubt not but the saints of god in england tread as light upon the earth , as you doe in holland , and are as ready to buy the truth and give as good rates for it as the best merchants among you , but howsoever i knew that this left-handed spirit rules much in men of your way , who not ontent to make our standing naught , labour much to make us worse then our standings , yet i make no question but your anointing teacheth you better , and more christian thoughts concerning us . and if wee judged it any advantage to the truth and cause we maintaine against you , wee durst view morall imputations with you , and are confident that wee could assigne and suggest against you both as many and as likely indirect and fleshly grounds for your departure from us as you can against us for keeping our first standing and profession . but the truth will never be made great by such demonstrations or arguments as these on either side , sometimes the truth is there where a man for many reasons would thinke there were least hope to find it , and againe many times faire overtures , and many pleasing inducements will but deceive and disappoint men in this kind . and as for that kind of truth which wee inquire after and toyle in the fire of contention to find out , viz. spirituall and divine , there is no substantiall and satisfying meanes for the discovery of it , but by a holy , humble and unpartiall consultation with the oracles of god , yea if it be of that species or especiall kind of truth which is not spread ( like the mannah ) upon the face of the scriptures , but lyeth low amongst the deepe things of god , cor. , . as it seemeth your truth in those questions depending betweene us in part doth ; now it is not sufficient simply to consult or aske ( as it were ) the scriptures concerning them , but they must be examined and re-examined againe and againe , both solitary and in consort , they must bee put home to it , and urged , and pressed close together before they will speake their mind plainely in this case or deliver out any of this treasure , yea in many cases a man must be content to goe to one end of the scripture to know what they meane in the other , yea ( that which is much considerable , and i feare wants that which belongs to it ) they may seeme to deliver many pleasing and plausible answers under the shadow whereof the judgements and consciences of men be much refreshed for a season , so that they may be ready to shoute for joy , and congratulate themselves with his acclamation that said {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , he had found , he had found , and yet none of these answers , neither be the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the true direct and bottome meaning of them : as sampson gave dalilah answer upon answer to her question or demand , which pleased her for a time carrying a semblance of realitie and truth in them , but still her experience discovered the insufficiency of them , and then she rejected them and would not give over till shee had the true answer indeed , judg. . . . so doubtlesse the scriptures may in many places ( to our apprehensions ) affirme many things , and deliver out many notions of choyse approbation to us for a time , the weakenesse and effects whereof notwithstanding farther time & experience and a clearer light may discover , yea there may from the same scripture rise up many meanings and interpretations before us one after another , that may bee in our eyes as eliah jesses eldest sonne was in samuels ( when hee was sent to annoynt one of his sonnes for king ) surely ( so he looking on eliab ) the lords annointed , is before him , but he was yet a great way off from the lords annointed there was elihah , abinabad , and shannuah , and more then as many more presented before him , before david came in sight , who was the lords annointed indeed , he was behind and a great way off in the field , and must be sent for before he comes : so the annointed sense and meaning of the scriptures may yet bee farre off when we perswade our selves with the greatest confidence it is before us : and as he said of benefits , multa perdenda sunt ut semel ponas bene , a man must bestow many amisse , that he may bestow one well ; so many times a man must cast away many interpretations of scripture , ( and those sometimes such as otherwise he would not wittingly part with ) that he may interpret at last as he ought to doe . i make no question but you have had experience hereof in your selfe more then once ; for my part i confesse it hath beene a very frequent thing with me in the course of my studies and meditations , to meet with both from the pens or mouthes of others , and by mine owne conceptions also , some interpretations which have much affected me upon the first greeting , yea which for a time i have nourished in my bosome , and have treasure of , and yet afterward have apparently seene , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . my rejoycing was not good , and by a strong hand of superior conviction have beene compelled to call that darkenesse , and so to east it from me which sometimes i called light , & kept close unto . wherefore i beseech you by the tender mercies of jesus christ , and by the glory of those many talents given unto you , the strength wherof , methinkes , should so worke , as to breake through a napkin and disdaine so weake and contemptible an inclosure , once more to survey with a single , unpartiall and disingaged eye , your present thoughts and apprehensions concerning these things which have removed you from off an english table , and put you under a holland bushell . confident i am that there is a light beyond your light in these matters , and which you are very capable of , if your eye by your long slumber be not over heavy to open . i professe in the sight of god , & in as great singlenesse and simplicity of heart as ever man in this world spake word unto you , that i doe as clearely apprehend error and mistake throughout the greatest part of your way , as i doe in this conclusion , that twice two makes foure . the necessity of your covenant , prolix confession of faith putting men to deliver their judgements in points of doubtf●●● disputations upon and before their admission into your churches ; the power of the keyes and of ordination of pastors to be the right and inheritance of the whole body of the congregation and of every member indifferently , and promiscuously , the divine institution or peremptory necessity of your ruling elders , the necessity of widowes as officers in the church , the absolute necessity of one and the same government or discipline in all particulars whatsoever for all churches , in all times and places , a full and peremptory determination of all things whatsoever appertaining to the worship of god , with divers such like positions ( which are the very life , soule , and substance of your way ) i am at perfect peace in my thoughts that you will never be able to demonstrate or prove from the scriptures to any sober minded or considering man , i am loath to overcharge you with words or writings ; to desire you to returne and to repaire the breach you have made upon us , i confesse were a hard mention , and of slender hope to be obtained , were it not made to a truely great and noble spirit : and ( caeteris paribus ) the request were more reasonable from you to me , and others with mee to goe over to you then , that wee should desire you to returne back unto us , because you have suffered already ( at least in the thoughts of many ) under the disparagement of some inconstancy , and equall it is when there is not some over-ruling reason to the contrary , that burdens should not be doubled , but rather divided . but herein i beseech you consider your advantage is the greater , you have by this meanes {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a greater and better sacrifice , to offer upon the service of the truth and gospell of jesus christ , then wee , if you can apprehend the truth with us , and deny your selfe the second time in comming over to us . and yet give me leave to say this unto you , though your restitution to us be one of the first borne of my joy in this worlds wishes , & the dayther of would be unto me above the dayes of the yeare , yet had i rather mourne over your absence still , then bring you hither any other wayes then by an angell of light , i relish no satisfaction to any my requests from any , but what i purchase more by reasoning , then by requesting ; and for your part i know that innovations of this nature , a friend and a feather are alike , except reason make the difference , i have made upon some words of encouragement from your mouth ( related unto me by d. p. ) and propound a quere unto you concerning the head of your way , your church covenant , with some reasons hereof ; if you be willing to treat with your old friend in a way of this commerce , i shall hereafter ( god willing , as health and liberty agree ) desire like satisfaction of you in some other particulars of your way , if the motion dislike you , neither have i any further pleasure in it , if you shall suspend your answer , give mee leave so farre to please my selfe , as to interpret your silence a ground of hope that your owne comming is not farre off ; or otherwise if your answer bee too strong for me , and able to remove my mountaines out of my way , they are not seas that shall keepe friends asunder any longer ; i am yours ( if you care to owne me ) send mee over the silver and bright shining wings of truth , and upon these i come flying over to you out of hand , i would be as glad of a bargaine of truth at any rate whatsoever as another , god having taught me how to drowne the world in the least drop of the water of life : onely this i desire may be the law of dispute betweene us , that since the strength of the confidence of your way is such as to breake out into a departure from us ( and i conceive double light is required for separation in any kind , whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing ) you will goe to worke as a prince and not as a begger , and command the truth which you hold and practise in opposition to us , by a high hand of pregnant and expresse scriptures , and not beg any thing by any loose or faint interpretation or supposition ; wee looke for , letter for letter , word for word , and little for little , to the proofe of all you maintaine against us , and judge it somewhat hard to be forsaken in such a manner , onely because our logique is more dull and lesse piercing then yours ; i have used the more libertie of speech unto you because i know you are able to beare it , and pity it is but a good paire of shoulders should now and then bee ballanced . the mightie god and father of our lord jesus christ teach us how to make something out of nothing , and by the use of a miserable distracted and broken world , how we may compasse and setch in the dayes of eternitie ; grace , peace , and truth be multiplyed unto you and yours , from the great fountaine of these heavenly treasures . yours in the lord for the greatest services of christian love and acquaintance . j. g. finis . the six book-sellers proctor non-suited wherein the gross falsifications, and untruths, together with the inconsiderate and weak passages, found in the apologie for the said book-sellers, are briefly noted and evicted, and the said book-sellers proved so unworthy, both in their second beacon-fired, and likewise in their epistle written in the defence of it, that they are out of the protection of any christian, or reasonable apologie for either / by john goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing g ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the six book-sellers proctor non-suited wherein the gross falsifications, and untruths, together with the inconsiderate and weak passages, found in the apologie for the said book-sellers, are briefly noted and evicted, and the said book-sellers proved so unworthy, both in their second beacon-fired, and likewise in their epistle written in the defence of it, that they are out of the protection of any christian, or reasonable apologie for either / by john goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . p. printed for h. cripps, and l. lloyd, london : . reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. eng apologie for the six booksellers, subscribers of the second beacon fired. a r (wing g ). civilwar no the six book-sellers proctor non-suited. wherein the gross falsifications, and untruths, together with the inconsiderate and weak passages, goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the six book-sellers proctor non-suited . wherein the gross-falsifications , and untruths , together with the inconsiderate and weak passages , found in the apologie for the said book-sellers , are breifly noted and evicted . and the said book-sellers proved so unworthy , both in their second beacon-fired , and likewise in their epistle written in the defence of it , that they are out of the protection of any christian , or reasonable apologie for either . by j. g. a minister of the gospel of jesus christ . he that justifieth the wicked , and he that condemneth the righteous , even they both are an abhomination unto the lord . pro. . . who knowing the judgement of god , that they which commit such things , are worthy of death , not onely do the same , but consent with them who do them . rom. . . they that forsake the law , praise the wicked : but such as keep the law , contend with them . prov. . . nullum vitium est sine patrocinio . sen. causa patrocinio non bona major erit . ovid . non est in medico semper relevetur ut aeger : interdum doctâ plus valet arte malum . idem . london , printed for h. cripps , and l. lloyd , and and are to be sold at their shops at the castle in cornhill , and in popes-head-alley , near lumbard-street . the six book-sellers proctor non-suited , and his apologie proved the apologists own condemnation . good reader , i shall do little in this paper , but only give thee a few items ( with an imprimis ) of that large bed-rol of untruths and foul aspersions ( as the apologist expresseth himself ) of which he hath composed an apologie ( or rather , an apologue , instead of an apologie ) for his book-men . if there prove to be any vacant paper towards the end , i may give thee a taste of some weak and indigested sayings of his likewise . but concerning aspersions and untruths . imprimis he saith , p. . that after search , he found the omission of one word , such , had by a strange kind of multiplication , § . produced a thousand , wherein i render them [ the book-sellers ] to the world , as guilty of no less then forgery and falsification . here are two of those evil things , which himself calls soul and unjust aspersions . for first , i take his book-men ●ardie , ( and charge them accordingly ) with the omission of several other words , besides such , p. . . besides , i charge them in my book ( and that most justly ) with several other falsifications , besides those committed in and about the transcription out of my book of redemption , as is to be seen in my animadversions upon every section of their epistle ( a very few only excepted ) especially upon sect , . . and . . i no where make his bookmen guilty of forgery , for leaving out of the word such : i only say in my letter to them , that some would call it forgery . p. . item , he saith , p. . that at the book-sellers mis-transcribing § . the passage out of my book of redemption , i cry out of antichristian dealing , &c. this is book-seller-like also . i no where cry out of anti-christian dealing because of their un-christian handling me in their transcribing me . i only call their request to the parliament for the confinement of the press , an anti-christian request ; of which i give a true , and sober account . p. . item , p. . he saith , that i have so far profited in the art of § . calumnation , that i am not ashamed to prostitute the sentences of calvin , piscator , pareus , the synod of dort , &c. to the maintenance of those arminian doctrines , which all the world knows their souls abhord , &c. doth the man speak truth , when he calls it a calumniation , truly and faithfully , and without any falsification in the least , to transcribe or report the sayings of men ? he is not able to prove that i have wronged the authors he speaks of , nor any one of them , in the least tittle or iota , in any thing i have cited from them . and if their souls abhor'd the doctrines he speaks of , they are in a twofold respect , blame worthy ; . because their souls abhor'd such doctrines , which are the manifest truths of god . . because they assert and affirm that in words , which upon such a supposition , is most contrary to their sence and judgement . besides it is much more presbyterian , then orthodox , to call the citation of mens sentences for the maintenance of what they plainly speak and avouch , a prostitution of them . item , p. . he insinuates a charge against me of oppressing the book-sellers innocency . it seems to falsifie mens writings § . and opinions , is presbyterian innocency . but some of the book-sellers themselves ( i understand ) are more ingenuous then their apologist ( as clients many time are then their proctors ) and do confess they did not well in defaceing my words , and wish it had been otherwise . item , ( in the same page ) he calls toleration an accursed § . idol , and affirms it to be mr. goodwins great diana . if toleration be an idol , how come presbyterians to fare so well as they do , by it ? idols ( the scripture informeth us ) do neither good , nor evil , esa. . . . . psal. . . . &c. i know no reason ( nor do wiser men then i , know any ) why the sect of high presbyterialism , should be tolerated , more then its fellows . certain i am , it is as ill deserving of the civil state ▪ yea or of humane society ; yea or of the interest of christian religion it self , as most of them ▪ but why he should call , toleration , my great diana , it may be his interest , or his disaffection to me , knoweth ; but his conscience , ( i am confident ) knoweth not , especially if he understandeth what toleration properly meaneth . i not long since plainly expressed my self to the chief ruler of the land , that my sence was not to have any toleration granted by the magistrate , to any sort , or sect , of erroneous men whatsoever ; yea and further , that it was not in the magistrates power to grant any , [ id est , to grant a liberty , or permission unto any man , or sort of men , to erre . ] item yet again ( in the same page ) he saith , that if things § . be unpartially weighed , it will evidently appear , that to deny such or such a particular kind of unchangeablness in god , and to deny any unchangeableness in him at all , though different in words , yet is in sence the same . but if things be never so unpartially weighed , doth it , or will it evidently appear , that to deny the apologist , ( be he mr. pool , or mr. jenkins , or whosoever ) to be such or such a kind of animal , as suppose an horse , mule , or the like , and to deny him to be any animal at all , as suppose animal rational , an animal endued with reason , is onely somewhat different in words , yet the sence the same . item ( in the same fourth page ) he saith he is well assured , § . upon much conference with book-sellers since , that it was not willfully or maliciously left out to deprave my meaning , &c. and this he alledgeth as his first argument to make it evidently appear , that to deny such an unchangeableness , and to deny any unchangeableness , though somewhat different in words is yet in sence the same . doth it , evidently appear by the affirming of an untruth inconsiderately , and not maliciously , that to affirm a truth , and an untruth , is in sence the same , and only somewhat different in words ? is not this of that kind of demonstration , which maketh it evident that white is black , because it is something ? item ( towards the foot of the same page ) why the denying § . of such an unchangeableness , and any unchangeableness , should be in sence the same , he adds ( in the second place ) this reasonless reason . the true reason ( saith he ) why the word such was left out , was because it was a relative term [ and was not this an offence , deserving the punishment of being banished from the sentence ? ] and so if it had been expressed it would have necessitated the transcription of a far larger proportion of mr. goodwins words , &c. but first , this reason is not at all relative to the conclusion , the apparent eviction whereof it pretends unto . for what is there in it to prove , that to deny such an unchangeableness , and any unchangeableness , are in sence the same ? . it grosly contradicteth his former reason . for there he affirmed ( on the behalf of his beacon-firers ) that the word was not wilfully left out : and here he affirmeth that it was left out upon consideration and debate . now what is wilfulness , but the fulness of the will ? and when is the will fuller , then when a thing is willed , or resolved to be done , upon consideration , and in order to the effecting or procuring of some beloved end ? . ( and lastly ) if the nature of their work of beacon-firing would not permit the transcribing of such a proportion of my words , as was sufficient to explain my sence and meaning in that unchangeableness , which i deny unto god : they had provided better both for their consciences , and credits , if they had left out the whole sentence out of their book , instead of leaving out the word such , ( with others ) out of the sentence . for is it reasonable , or christian , to represent a mans saying as erroneous , without declaring unto the reader , in what sence that word , wherein the error is supposed to lye , is meant or understood by him , in case it be ambiguous ? item ( page . ) he saith that that assureance of the unchangeableness § . of gods love , which the beacon-firers implici●ely assert , and with the denial whereof they charge me , is very well known ( to the lord protector , and parliament , and all intelligent men ) to be that very ▪ same which i oppose , &c. if the beacon-firers do assert such an assureance of the unchangeableness of the love of god , as i there describe and oppose , i cannot beleeve that either my lord protector , or the parliament , or many if any ) other intelligent men , have any knowledge of such their assertion . for how should it ever come into the mind ( much less into the steady and certain knowledge either of the lord protector , parliament , or other intelligent man , that men pretending to the true knowledge and honour of god , as the beacon-fires do ( by the apologists high testimony of them ) should ascribe any thing unto him , so abhorring to his nature , so inconsistent with his holiness , so destructive to his great end and design for the advancement of godliness amongst men , as such an unchangeableness of love to men , which i there describe , and deny unto him ? as for the unchangeableness asserted by my adversaries , if it be such , which opposeth the unchangeableness , which i in twenty places ( some of them pointed to in my fresh discovery ) do assert , it is more then yet i understand . if it be such which i reject , and this with indignation and abhorrencie of soul ( as i , and all intelligent men , have good cause to doe ) neither the beacon-firers , nor their proctor , can with truth charge me with rejecting any other ; nor consequently with rejecting all whatsoever . therefore the mans dilemma is impertinently frivolous . item ( p. . ) he chargeth me , that my whole dispute is levied § . against the unchangeableness of gods love . a most horid , bould , and broadfac'd slander . for the main designe of that dispute of mine he speaks of , is to explain , vindicate and assert the unchangeableness of gods love : and withal to demonstrate , that to ascribe unto him such an unchangeableness of love , as the apologist ( it seems ) and some others , very inconsiderately do , is ( above all contradiction ) to render him mutable in his affection , and consequently , that unchangeableness of love , which they ascribe unto him , is felo de se , falls foul upon , and destroys it self . upon this account the reader desirous of satisfaction , may please to peruse p. . . and p. . . . of my book of redemption . therefore how importune and un-clerk-like is he in his parenthesis following : i am not ignorant ( saith he ) he confidently tells us , that in his judgement gods love is unchangeable , as it is no new thing for a spirit of error to be accompanied with a spirit of contradiction . most true it is , that a spirit of error is very frequently accompanyed with a spirit of contradiction . and hence it is , that the apologist , and other ministers and preachers of his judgment about the unchangeableness of the love of god , &c. seldom preach , but that their sermons are yea and nay ; the doctrinal part , a samaritan , and the applicatory part , a jew . but whereas he would insinnuate me a self-contradictor , because i somewhere deny his unchangeableness of love in god , and elsewhere assert such an unchangeableness of love in him , which with the salvage of the glory and truth of all his attributes , is competent to him , he declares himself to be the firstborn son of disingenuity , unless to salve this dishonour , he will be content to plead an ignoramus . the passages he transcribes out of my book , are palpably irrelative to his cause . they only prove that i deny such an unchangeableness of love in god , as he ( it seems ) fancyeth in him ( which certainly , whilest god spareth me my wits , and the use of my reason and understanding to consult the scriptures , i always shall deny ) but they have no face or colour of proof , that i deny the unchangeableness of gods love simply , or of any such unchangeableness herein , which is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or by the scriptures anywhere ascribed unto him . item ( p. . ) he terms it scepticism in me , that i am not § . positive and assertive in the highest , but express my self modestly and with acknowledgement of some stond in my judgment , where the matter is difficult , and the grounds of the truth not so evident to me . yet p. . he profoundly taxeth me with want of modesty , even where i have ground of confidence in abundance . but want of modesty , and abundance of modesty , are alike taxable , when they do not serve high-presbyterian turns . it seems high-presbyterians , pretend to a line of knowledge far higher then pauls . for he professed that he knew but in part , and accordingly prophecied but in part . but they are afraid of the reproach of scepticism , unless they profess to know all things , and this without hesitancy , or the least regret in their judgement , about any thing . their manner is to lay on load and strength of confidence on their conclusions , even where their premises are weak and contemptible . item ( p. . . . ) he reasons most absurdly from the loose sect. ground of his distinction of a two fold love in god , a love to righteousness , a love to persons . for speaking of that love , about which only the question sticketh between the apologist and his opponents , viz. a love of complacency and delight in the persons of men , god loves no mans person materially or simply considered , but onely as qualified with righteousness : as on the contrary , he hates no mans person , with an hatred opposite to this love , simply considered ( this being the workmanship of his own hands ) but onely as corrupted with sin and unrighteousness . so that when god loves a righteous person , he doth not love him with a twofold love ( as the apologist weakly supposeth ) with one , in respect of his righteousness , another in respect of his person ; but he loves the person , mediante justicia , or because of that rightteousness , which he findes in him : and would not love him ( i still mean , with that kind of love mentioned ) if righteousness were not found in him . the reason is , because this love of his to righteous persons , formally [ i. e. as righteous ] and concretely considered , is uniform and unchangeable : neither is there any other object of it , but onely a person , or persons , so qualified . from hence likewise it evidently appears , how impertinent the similitude is , upon which the apologist , for want of better supports , statuminates his cause . a prince ( saith he ) that loves a loyal and faithful subject , but when he proves disloyal , he hates him . will any man deny that the princes affections are changed ? and yet he continues to love loyalty , and hate disloyalty . who with half an eye , seeth not , but that if this prince were like unto god in his love to a loyal and faithful subject [ i. e. could love no subject , but him that is faithful and loyal , nor hate any , but him that is contrary ] it were unproper to say that his affections in this kind , either were in the case put , or could be in any other changed . and that there is a sence , wherein the love of god to men , may be said in some cases , to be changed , viz. such a sence as that wherein he is said to repent , is i suppose the sence of all that understand themselves in these controversies . but this sence doth not suppose any change , or changeableness , in the nature or essence of god , which is really the same with his love , but onely a change and changeableness in his dispensations in reference to such and such persons , which all divines with one mouth affirm may be varyed and changed , and this in reference to the same persons , without the least shadow of variation , or change in his essence . and if . the love of the prince in the apologists fable , were his nature and essence ; and . this essence of his simply and absolutely unchangeable , though he should express himself according to the different manner of love and hatred towards his subject specified , under the different deportments of loyalty , and disloyalty , yet could not his affections , at least in any proper sence , be said to be changed ( which is the sence wherein i constantly deny any change of affection in god , although he should one while love a person with a love of complacency , and afterwards , ( viz. upon his turning aside from righteousness unto sin ) not love him , but hate him with an hatred contrary to his former love . but these things are argued to the satisfaction of all ingenuous and unprejudiced men , in the pages , and passages of my book of redemption , lately directed unto . but the apologist stands declared on the left hand : and there is little hope of bringing him over to the right , unless his company were willing to come along with him . how can ye beleeve ( saith christ ) who receive honour one of another ? joh. . what the apologist adds , p. . , and part of the . sibi et muses canit , or however it passeth my intelligence . onely this i understand , p. . he citeth a passage from my letter to mr. ca●yl , book-seller-like , i mean , with the omission of these emphatical words in it : and i cannot but presume regularly enough . and thus the apologist hath done his good will to cover the nakedness of his six friends , the beacon-firers . but he may cry out ; h●i mi i quod nullis scelus est medicabile verbis ! he hath indeed tryed his skill , if it were possible to make ( with cacus of old ) candida de nigris , et de candentibus atra , i. e. black things , look white , and white to look like black . and they may do well to accept of his will for the deed . but the black-amore is never the whiter for his washing : onely the launderer hath blacked his fingers with handling him . item p. . he chargeth me with scurrilous language towards the learned and reverend mr. walker , and in particular with my bitter recipe , which ( he saith ) i prescribe for him , as for one that is not compos sui . he falsifies egregiously , in saying that the recipe ( bound in some of the copies of that book , contrary unto order from me nor is it in any the copies in my hand ) was prescribed by me for him , as if , &c. it was as much prescribed for mr. pool , mr. jenkin , or any other man : as for mr. walker : it was ●ather prescribed from him , or out of his papers , then to him . but when he tells me of using scurrilous language towards him , if he would tell me what he means by scurrilous language ( for high presbyterians , as i somewhere take notice in my animadversions upon the booksellers letter , are much given to a kind of canting dialect ) i should better know how to entertain his charge . if he understands the words in the common and best known signification , i may reasonably suppose he onely read mr. walkers piece against me , and not my answer to him ; and by the far worse then scurrilous-language against me , which he found there , presumed that somewhat scurrilous , at least , would be drawn from me thereby , in case i should make any reply to him . but mr. walker ( it seems ) inherits the praises of learned and reverend , notwithstanding any super-scurrility of language in his writings : in promptu ratio est : presbyteralis erat . hereof the reason is not far : he was a grand high presbiter . howeuer , if there were any unbeseeming word , one , or more , which in the heat and hast of writing , either in answer to him , or mr. jenkin , or any other ( for i think i am certain that i never began any fray with any man ) may possibly have escaped my pen , ( although i know nothing at present in any of my writings , that deserves the black brand of scurrilous . ) i shall follow the copy , which the apologist tells me ( and oh , that the tidings were true ) his friends the beacon-firers have set me in an ingenuous acknowledgement of their errour in using such tartness of language in their letter to me . but it is not so much their tartness of language that i complain of ; but their numerous falsifications , untruths , and undue suggestions against me ; in which kind i am not conscious to my self that i ever wronged any man . item p. . he further chargeth me with saying something ( himself saith not , nor i think well knoweth , what in favour of all cursed and damnable doctrines : onely he means ( he saith ) for the toleration , and against the suppression of them . another most un-christian aspersion , and scandalously untrue . i never spake any thing in favour of any cursed or damnable doctrines ( either known , or suspected for such by me ) but have continually upon all occasions , both in publique , and private , faithfully , and with the best of my understanding , testified against them . yea , i am so far from pleading for a toleration , or against a suppression , of them all , that i never pleaded in either kind for so much as one of them . yea my soul is aggrieved within me , that the ministers both in city and countrey , whether it be out of consciousness of their inability to doe any thing to purpose against them , or out of an unworthy remisness in the case , have been so little active , as they have been , in inlightening the world with the knowledge of the truth , which is the onely way to heal the darkness of the apologists accursed and damnable doctrines in the world . i confess i have laboured to disswade men from fighting the battails of god , and of the truth , with unhallowed weapons , from plucking up the tares in such a way ; which cannot but endanger the plucking up of the wheat also ; from applying such means for the cure , which is like to enrage and strengthen the disease yet more . the lord christ himself gives this testimony to the church of ephesus , that they could not [ and consequently did not ] bear [ or tolerate ] those that were evil , rev. . but doth the apologist think that their non-beari●g , or non-tolerating of them , consisted in their fining ▪ confining or imprisoning , in their burning , or slaying them with the sword ? this is , not the christian , but the antichristian , non-toleration ? the christian non-toleration of vain talkers and deceivers , was taught by paul , when he tells titus that their mouth must be stopped , tit. . . and their toleration ( in such a sence as ever i pleaded for it ) by the lord christ himself when he said , let both grow together until the harvest , mat. . . but not weak and sinful men , but the lord christ himself also ( it seems ) blessed for ever , must give place to the high-presbyterian interest , and be arrested for pleading for a toleration of errors , and damnable doctrines . item p. . he chargeth me , that in my {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i set my-wits , and the scriptures too on the rack to maintain the monster of universal liberty of conscience , &c. the spirit of the clients here again uttereth it self in the proctor . for . he cannot prove ( nor is it true ) that i either set my witts , or the scriptures on the rack , for any end or purpose whatsoever . . much less is it true , that i set either on the rack , for the maintaining of any monster . if by liberty of conscience , he means an exemption of any mans conscience , from subjection unto god , or christ , or any of their lawes , or sayings , i have always been so far from maintaining this liberty , that i have still opposed it with all my might , with my whole heart and soul . if by it he means an exemption of the conscience , from subjection unto men , or their doctrines , or sayings , . he gives it a scurrilous nick-name , in terming it a monster . . the scriptures need not be set on the rack for maintaining it : they voluntarily , yea zealously , and with expresness of plea , plead for it . but whereas the apologist makes mention of conscience here , if ( in his tittle page ) where he confesseth himself to be nullius nominis , instead of nominis , he had put in , conscientiae , he had given a better and truer reason of his non-subscribing his name to his apologie . for i verily beleeve that his inward thought was , not that he was a man of no name ( i. e. of no credit or esteem with men ) but that he was a man of too much credit , to adventure it in the crazy bottom of such an apologie . item p. . he confidently affirms , that mr. edwards did answer my {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} satisfyingly and convincingly in the judgme●t of any impartial man , and then insinuates a charge of disparagement against me , that i never replyed hereunto : and concludes my silence to be a confession that i cannot answer it , yea is confident that this is the truth . surely the man dreamt either all , or the greatest part at least , of this fable . i am so far from beleeving that the man he speaks of , answered the book he speaks of , either satisfyingly or convincingly , that i cannot yet beleeve that ever he made any answer to it at all . it is somewhat strange , that such a book , upon which the world should have such an eye , as he importeth , and which should be written particularly against me , should never be so much as heard of by me , within the compass of i know not how many years . however , how greedy of aspersing and calumniating doth this man shew himself to be , who thus simply insults over me for not returning an answer to such a book , which he could not know that ever i had seen , or heard of . solomon saith , he that answereth a matter before he heareth it , it is folly and shame to him , prov. . . but this man would have the world beleeve , that my not answering a matter before i heare it , is folly and shame unto me . so that solomon and he , are of two minds . another book of the author he speaks of , intituled antapologia , the greatest part of it written in the same argument , which mr. pryn , ( a man of more learning , i beleeve , and of a more profound judgement , then the booksellers proctor ) proclaimed unanswerable , i did answer , and this satisfyingly , and convincingly in the judgement of any impartial man . and if god stood by me to encounter and slay that lyon , i should have been able ( i question not ) by the same assistance to overcome that uncircumcised philistine ( if the goliath be indeed in vivis , which i much question ) in whom the apologist so much rejoyceth . but in imposing upon me his will and pleasure , what books i shall , or ought to answer , and what not , ( whether my health , strength , or occasions otherwise , yea or life it self , will permit me to answer any , or no ) he acteth the part of high-presbytery to the life ( as his book-sellers phrase is . ) but all books written , either by the theologica facultas of high-presbytery , or in defence of the grossest contra-remonstrantism , must be unanswerable by the verdict of this faculty . the answer in the press to my pagans debt and dowry , must needs be unanswerable , because it is written indefence of the common error against the truth . but for his two acute and learned doctors , doctor owen , and doctor kendal , whose labours ( he saith ) have had the high approbation of divers learned men , enough of their wrirings have been answered already by men as acute and learned as they ( whom i name in my animadversions upon his clients epistle ) whose labours likewise ( i doubt not ) but have had ( i am sure deserve ) the high approbation of sundry learned men . however , in case i shall not answer the writings of either of them , shall the man , or any of his complices , have any more reason , upon such an account to conclude me {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , [ i. e. self-condemned ] then either of his two acute and learned doctors , who have onely set harpocrates a on work to answer some of the books that are extant against them ? and yet they are , in respect of their years much more capable of the labour of study , and ( i beleeve ) in respect of their occasions , at much more liberty , then i. item p. . he chargeth me , that i twit mr. jenkin in the teeth , with carolizing , scotizing , and telling him of his bands , &c. most disingenuously and barbarously , &c. but might not he much more ingenuously have concealed mr. jenkins name here , then his own , in the title page of his book ? it seems he is more tender over his own name , and credit , then his friends . it may be mr. jenkin himself would never have owned the things , which he now applies unto him , nor would the world have looked upon him , and them , as correlatives . however , was i not provoked , yea , pressed upon , and challenged by the book-sellers ( i had almost said by himself ) to make my exceptions against any of their committee ? in which case , what could i have done less , then i did ? certain i am , that i dealt more fairly and favourably by mr. jenkin , then the apologist hath done . i named him not in reference to any the crimes mentioned , but observed that known law of civility , which enjoyns men to spare the persons of men , but permits ( upon occasion ) to censure their vices : parcere personis , dicere de vi●iis . a law which the apologist himself hath transgressed , dicend , de utrisque and arraigns me for his own transgression . but it seems that so much as to mention high-presbyterian miscarriages , though never so unworthy , though upon occasions never so equitable and importuning , though with never so much tenderness and respect to their persons , is disingenuity , yea no lesse then barbarism . by the way , whereas he chargeth me with telling mr. jenkin of his bands , &c. he breaks the bands of truth , and casts them from him . i no where so much as mention mr. jenkins bands , either to himself , or to any other person : neither indeed do i know that mr. jenkin ever suffered bands : i onely cite a few words out of suetonius , one of which signifieth , bound . but in case mr. jenkin hath suffered bands , and it be barbarism to mention them , it seems there was a marvelous great difference between the apostle pauls bonds , and his : for paul oft mentioneth his bands as matter of honour unto him ; yea and commends other christians unto their fellows upon the account of their bands , heb. . . when the mention of a mans bands is matter of disgrace , or disparagement unto him , it argues , not onely the cause of his sufferings to be very unworthy and foul , but to be such in the general opinion of men also . item p. . ( towards the parting ) he chargeth me with imputing unto god , ignorance of future contingencies , more sociniano ; well said the apostle that evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse , tim. . the truth is , that this is the basest and broadest calumny in the whole piece : nor can i imagine what word , phrase , saying or passage in all my writings , should imbolden the conscience of the man of no name , to act this splenetique part in the end . certain i am that i do as plainly as any other man , and with as much strength of understanding , as god hath given me , upon all occasions , assert the knowledg of all future contingencies , yea of all things whatsoever unto god . the reader ( if he please ) may satisfie himself by repairing to p. . to p. . . to p. . ( besides many other places ) of my book of redemption . what he cavils , p. . . against my answer to sir francis nethersole , as if it were unsatisfactory ; and his charge of i know not how many greek misdemeanor , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in relating the testimony of another concerning my treatise of the divine authority of the scriptures ( where also without any reason , or colour of reason , he insinuateth against me , as if i thought my self to good to vail the bonnet to mornay , grotius , cameron , in their writings about the same subject ) being altogether eccentrical , as well to his business ( unless this were absolutely and universally to asperse , as much as to vindicate his clients ) as mine own , i pass over ; only taking notice by the way , how lamely and by halfs , he presents my answer to sir francis nethersole , opposing my justification of the design of putting the king to death , to a passage in my anti-cavaelarism : . how either weakly , or proposterously and perversly he understands that part of my answer , which he describes . for there is an high and extraordinary interposure and appearance of god in stirring up the spirits , and strengthening the hand of rulers and magistrates , to proceed in judgement against kings degenerated into tyrants ; in respect whereof the process is emphatically attributable unto god , whereas the ordinary proceedings at law by a single judge against the apologists rogues , are matters of course , and common providence . nor shall i stand now to reason the man into his sences about proper , and improper , attributions unto god , nor to cause him to see , that what is properly , must needs be formally , and what is formally , cannot be eminently attributed unto him , &c. i consess i thought that such a meraphysical pretender , as doctor kendal , had understood these things better then i perceive he doth . his pen strikes another false stroke , in saying that the having of a mans sences sodden into trapezuntius his temper , is my own phrase . for where i use this phrase , i plainly signifie that i borrow it , and declare from whom . i shall further only take notice of this passage , p. . if he answer me , as he hath answered sir francis nethersole , or mr. jenkins , i shall not trouble either him , or the world with any reply ; but that which is his constant refuge in arduous cases , he means , silence . doth he not here plainly grant that it was no arduous case [ or matter of difficult undertaking ] for me to answer either sir francis nethersole , or mr. jenkins , inasmuch as i made not silence my refuge , when i answered them ? yea , and that it is no arduous case to answer his apologie , since i have not made silence my refuge from the face of it ? yet i confess there is a strain of prudence in the saying . for in case i should answer him , as i have done either sir francis nethersole , or mr. jenkin ( as perhaps i now have done ) it is his wisdome to arm himself with a resolution against troubling himself with a reply , because in such a case , it is like to be a trouble indeed to him , and this to little purpose . a postscript ▪ because the man of no name chargeth me ( pag. . ) with speaking in favour of all cursed and damnable doctrines , meaning ( as he saith ) for the toleration , and against the suppression of them , ( besides what i have already answered to this charge ) that he , and his , may understand , that long before either his daies , or mine , there were men , both wiser , and learneder ( and i fear more conscientious and pious , then either of us ) that speak as much , or more , then ever i did for a toleration ( in such a sence as ever i pleaded for any ) of such doctrines , which he ( i doubt not ) will call ( as well he may ) accursed and damnable , i shall supply part of the vacant paper with some passages , which he may read , as i have done , in hugo grotius , de jure belli . lib. . cap. . § . , &c. first he transcribes out of salvianus bishop of marseilles , these words ( declaring his tendernesse about the punishing , or rather for the non-punishing , even of arrian heretiques . ) haeretici sunt , sed non scientes : denique apud nos sunt haeretici , apud se non sunt : nam in tantum se catholicos esse judicant , ut nos ipsos titulo haereticae pravitatis infament . quod ergo illi nobis , sunt & hoc nos illis . nos illos injuriam divinae generationi facere certi sumus , quod minorem . patri filium dicunt . illi nos injuriosos patri existimant , quod aequales esse credamus . veritas apud nos est , sed illi apud se esse pr sumunt . hono● dei apud nos est : sed illi hoc arbitrantur honorem divinitatis quod credunt . in officiosi sunt , sed illis hoc est summum religionis officium . impij sunt , sed hoc putant summam esse pietatem . errant ergo , sed bono animo errant , non odio , sed affectu ' dei , honorare se dominum , atque amare creden●es . quamvis non habeant rectam fidem , illi tamen hoc perfectam dei aestimant charitatem : et qualiter pro hoc ipso falsae opinion●● errore in die judicij puniendi sunt , nemo potest scire , nisi judex . interim idcircò eis , ut reor patientiam deus commodat , quia videt evs , etsi non recte credere , affectu tamen piae opinionis errare , i. e. they are heretiques , but against their knowledge , they are so in our opinion , but not in their own , for they think themselves so far to be catholique [ or , orthodox ] that they defame us with the title of heresie . therefore what they are in our opinion , we are in theirs . we are sure they do wrong to the divine generation , in saying , the son is lesse then the father . they beleeve that we do wrong unto god the father , in holding that the son is equal to him . the truth is with us , but they presume it is with them . the honour of god is with us ; but they are of opinion that by their beleef they honour the god-head . they are officious amisse , but what they do , they judge to be the chief duty of religion . they are impious , but they think it to be true piety . they erre , but they erre with a good mind , not out of hatred , but out of affection unto god , beleeving that by this they honour and love their lord . though they have not the right faith , yet they think this is the perfect love of god : and how they are to be punished at the day of judgement for this errour of a false opinion , none knows but the judge himself . in the mean time , as i think , god lendeth them his patience , because he sees , that though they do not beleeve aright , yet they erre out of an affection to a pious opinion . by the way ; the christian equanimity of this man , being a bishop , towards poor creatures , who in the simplicity of their minds shall turn aside into by-waies of errour , though very dangerous , in things appertaining unto god , may make mr. anonymus his cheeks to change colour ( as his own phrase is ) when he breaths out fines , imprisonment , banishment , fire , sword , gibbet , and what not , against poor , weak , and foolish men , onely for not being as quick-sighted to discern the truth from errour , as he presumes himself to be , or for not having ( possibly ) obtained from god the like grace and means for his comming to the knowledge of the truth , which himself hath done . the fore-mentioned author rehearseth likewise ( in the place directed unto ) these words out of austin , tom. . cnntrà epistolam manichaei , cap. . ( though he nameth not the place ) where this worthy father disclaimeth all severity of proceedings against the manichees , though a most vile and pernicious sect of hereticks . illi in vos saeviant , qui nesciunt cum quo labore verum in veniatur , & quà difficile caveantur errores . illi in vos saeviant , qui nesciunt quàm rarum & arduum est carnalia phantasmata piaementis serenitate superare . illi in vos saeviant , qui nesciunt cum quantâ difficultate sanetur oculus interioris hominis , ut possit intueri solem summum , non istum , quem vos collitis coelesti corpore , oculis carreis & hominum , et pecorum fulgentem atque radiantem , sed illum de quo scriptum est per prophetam , ortus est mihi justitiae sol , et de quo dictum est in evangelio , erat lumen verum quod illuminat omnem hominem venientem in hunc mundum . illi in vos saeviant , qui nesciunt quantis suspirijs & gemitibus fiat , ut ex quantulacumque parte possit intelligi deus . postremo illi in vos saeviant , qui nullo tali errore decepti sunt , quali vos deceptos vident . ego autem — saevire in vos omninò non possum , quos , sicut me ipsum illo tempore , ità nunc debeo sustinere , & tantâ patientiâ vobiscum agere , quantâ mecum egerunt proximi mei , cum in vestro dogmate rabiosus & caecus errarem , i. e. let those be fierce [ or cruel ] to you , that know not with what labour truth is to be found , and with how great difficulty errours are avoided . let those be cruel to you , who know not how rare and of how difficult an attainment it is to overcome carnal phantasms [ and conceits ] by the serenity [ and clearnesse ] of a pious mind . let those [ again ] deal cruelly with you , who are ignorant with how great difficulty the eye of the inner man is healed , that it may [ look uponand ] behold the highest sun , not that which you worship , as subsisting with an heavenly body , & which shines with his beams in the fleshly eyes both of men and beasts , but that sun , of whom it is written by the prophet , the son of righteousnesse hath risen unto [ or upon ] us ; and of whom it is said in the gospel , he was the true light , which inlighteneth every man that commeth into the world . let those [ yet again ] cruelly handle you , who know not with what deep sighings and groanings [ of soul ] even a little [ true ] understanding of god , is obtained . lastly , let those exercise cruelty towards you , who never were themselves deceived with any such errour , as now they perceive you deluded with . but as for me , i can at no hand be [ fierce , or ] cruel towards you , whom i ought now to bear with patiently , as i did with my selfthen [ when i was one of you ] yea and to intreat you with as much patience , as my neighbours [ orthodox christians ] shewed to me , when i wandered like a mad and blind man , in your opinion . the fore-named author ( in the place specified ) to these two large transcriptions out of the two renowned fathers mentioned , subjoyneth ( upon the same argument ) as followeth . in arrianam haeresin acriter invehitur athanasius ( epist ad soli●ari●s ) quòd prima in contradicentes usa esset judicum potestate , & quos non potuisset verbis inducere , eos vi , plagis , carceribusque ad se pertrahere amniteretur . atque ita inquit , seiqsam quàm non sit pia , nec dei cultrix , manifestat ; respiciens , in fallor , ad illud , quod legi ur , gal. . . similia habet hilarius ad constantium . in galliâ jam olim damnati sunt ecclesiae judicio episcopi , qui ut priscillianistas gladio animadvertere●ur curaverant : & in oriente damnata synodus , quae in bogomili exustionem consenserat . sapienter dixit plato , errantis paenam esse , doceri , i. e. athana●…us sharply inveigheth against the arrian heresie ( in his epistle to the solitarians ) because they made use of the chief power of the [ civil ] judges , against those who contradicted their opinion , and indeavoured by force , stripes & prisonsto draw them over unto them , whom they could not induce [ or perswade ] by arguments . and so ( saith he ) it manifesteth it self , not to be [ truly ] pious , nor reverential of god ; herein respecting , if i mistake not , that which is written , gal. . . [ but as then , he that was born after the flesh , persecuted him that was born after the spirit , &c. ] hilary hath the like writing to constantius . in france those bishops were long since condemned by the judgement of the church , who procured the priscillian heretiques to be punished with the sword . and that synod was likewise damned in the east , which had consented to the burning of bogomilus . it was wisely said by plato ; that he that erreth , is to be punished by being taught . errata . page . l. . r. with the , l. . r. high-presbyterian . p. . l. ult. after knowledg , insert , ) p. . l. . r. musis . p. . l. . r. sheweth . p. . l. . r. wisdemeanors . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a harpocrates was worshipped by the egyptians as the god of silence . tvvo hyms, or spirituall songs; sung in mr. goodwins congregation on friday last being the . of octob. . which was a day set apart by authority of parliament for a solemn thanksgiving unto god by this nation, for that most wonderfull and happy successe of the english army under the conduct of his excellency the lord general cromwel over the scottish forces at worcester. also a letter for satisfaction of some presbyterian ministers, and others, who hold it unlawfull to give thanks for the shedding of blood. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) tvvo hyms, or spirituall songs; sung in mr. goodwins congregation on friday last being the . of octob. . which was a day set apart by authority of parliament for a solemn thanksgiving unto god by this nation, for that most wonderfull and happy successe of the english army under the conduct of his excellency the lord general cromwel over the scottish forces at worcester. also a letter for satisfaction of some presbyterian ministers, and others, who hold it unlawfull to give thanks for the shedding of blood. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by f:n: in aldersgatestreet, london : . anonymous. by john goodwin. annotation on thomason copy: "octob. th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng presbyterianism -- controversial literature -- early works to . hymns, english -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no tvvo hyms,: or spirituall songs; sung in mr. goodwins congregation on friday last being the . of octob. . which was a day set apart b goodwin, john b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion tvvo hyms , or spiritvall songs ; sung in mr. goodwins congregation on friday last being the . of octob. . which was a day set apart by authority of parliament for a solemn thanksgiving unto god by this nation , for that most wonderfull and happy successe of the english army under the conduct of his excellency the lord general cromwel over the scottish forces at worcester . also a letter for satisfaction of some presbyterian ministers , and others , who hold it unlawfull to give thanks for the shedding of blood . psal. . . sion heard , and was glad ; because of thy righteous judgements , o lord . revel. . . and they sung as it were a new song before the throne , &c. london : printed by f : n : in aldersgatestreet . . to those presbyterian ministers and others , who are unsatisfied with the lawfulness of giving thanks to god for the shedding of blood . the objection of a friend at our late meeting was , that he was unsatisfied in his judgment , that it is lawfull to rejoyce at the sheding of blood , though it were granted to be in the distruction of an enemy . to which i answer ; that considering of it simply of it self , it is a sad thing , and a matter rather of sorrow then rejoycing , to see so noble a creature as man , to loose his life in such a manner , but as it is to be considered in the relative , and by the effects and drift of the enemy , which sought for our lives , liberty , and freedome , even in the ordinances of god ; i say if men become thus stubborn and wilfull , their destruction becomes a matter of joy and delight . then shall the righteous rejoyce and be glad . syon heard and was glad and the daughters of judah rejoyced , because of thy judgments o lord . psal. . . he casteth the wicked to the ground , sing unto the lord with thanksgiving . these places shew the behaviour of the righteous , when god ariseth and putteth forth his strength for the destruction of his enemies , they exceedingly rejoyce : psal. , , and they expresse that joy before the lord verse . from which places it is evident , that the church and people of god when they have victorie , are enjoyned to rejoyce , from whence i conclude , that solemn dayes of tanksgiving for victories obtained , are not only lawfull , but enjoyned as a duty , and when the people of god , do come before god to perform this duty , they ought exceedingly to rejoyce , ps. . . the righteous shall rejoyce when he seeth the vengeance , he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked , what vengeance this is you may see in the former verse where the wicked are destroyed like thorns under a pet. gen. . . melchisedick blesseth god for the victory and successe given unto abraham . and when the lord drowned pharoh and all his hoast : moses and meriam rejoyced and sung praises unto god , judges . so when david was compassed about with many enemies , and the lord had scattered them , the voice of joy and gladnes was in every godly heart , and certainly there is great reason why it should be so , for god is much glorified in this work of power , we see when pharohs chariot wheels flew off , then he acknowledged that god fought for israel , exod. . and the like in psal. . . &c now are the enemies of god by this means , brought to glorifie god , and shall not his own people in whom he puts forth his power , give evidence of thank fulnesse unto him . psal. he that offereth praise and thanks , glorifieth god . again , this joy and gladnes comes from the benefits that come to gods people , when their enemies are destroyed . first their subduing of the enemy gives them the more freedom and liberty in the service of god , as when saul was dead , then david could frequent the sanctuary . secondly , it gives evidence of gods favour , to be renewed and confirmed to his people , and therefore they cannot but reign psal. . . by this i know thou favourest me , because mine enemy doth not triumph over me . thus far have i thought good , briefly to communicate these meditations unto you , which if you please to ponder and consider seriously of , i hope not only your self , but others of the presbyterian brethren will be so far from censuring us , that they will joyn with us in this heavenly duty , from whence doth arise an over flow or breaking forth of the spirit into songs of joy and gladness . mr. jo : goodwins song or hym. this is the day the lord hath made , on purpose to rejoyce . to raise his praises to the heaven , spare neither heart nor voice . the heavens on high have bowed down , the earth with joy doth ring : for what he hath prepar'd and done , on earth he makes us sing . prepare and sanctifie your selves , you priests of god most high . in likeness of a man of war , your god to you's come nigh . in heaven a glorious victory , for you prepar'd he ha's : and what he hath prepar'd in heaven , on earth for us he do's . you have seen , you have seen ; his vision high , the glory of your god : make hearts and bodies clean and pure , sacred for his abode . your enemies rage and crueltie between them they had still : no wonder god in flesh , they fell opposers of his will . your enemies were not , afterward , why god himself had hid . though at their cost they lately had , his presence with you try'd : but fell into his ambushment , and tumbled on his sword . and by the sound of dreadfull fall , proclaim'd truth in his word . and taught the world this victory , in anguish of their blood : that god to wicked men did pay the judgements in his word . the lord that mountains he had toucht , and made them smoke before : this smoke it healed not their pride , they swell'd still more and more . and scottish ground for their proud look they thought too mean and base : and would no longer there be born , their land of such disgrace . up from their native soil they rise , with lofty pace they move to englands honoured ground , on which they pitcht their hopes and love . as commodation fit to bear their glory and their weight : this land they judg'd of measure just , but god a fire prepar'd : in place neer worcester town it was , at englands feet they lay . to melt these mountains that would not by smoking , but by fire consume and melt , this is the way of gods provoked ire . glory this day to our land is come , in glory swell not here : the first born sons of godly shape to the world we shall appear . for when god comes to visit men in such a shining path , he n'ere departs till sin doth say , d●part with high disgrace . and sin when god hath once then shew'd his lovely face to men , it s no great matter to disdain , and fear the same agen . o let this great salvation 〈…〉 which greets us now from heaven be kept a sacred record , and on our hearts be graven . and let it be our councellor , to instruct us what to render : that god who it to us hath given out of his bowels tender . the heavens in travail lately were of englands joy and peace : they are deliver'd , and brought forth a crop of pleasant fare . the heavens do pipe , come let us dance , they call to joy and gladness : la ts answer in the voice of man , saved by god from sadness . and after this days sacred joy , where is no place for sorrow : abstain from sin , then this day joy shall be your joy too morrow . yea then they shall nere take away the voice of joy from our land , our joyes without or clips or clouds , like sun and morn shall stand . mr. 〈◊〉 song or hym. awake , awake , let 's all arise , with loud voice let us sing . to god our lord and saviour , a song of thanksgiving . o all ye saints behold and see the beauty of your god : who hath prepar'd another glass , besides that of his word . for you to see his glory in , who are so much in 's heart ; he loves to shew his glorious face , though we have no desert . look full his sons of glory then , be strook with admiration : to see the wonderous works of god , the god of your salvation . neer twenty thousand men of arms , of late crept in this nation . whose face was principally set , against gods habitation . princes and great men more then one , in this works had their hands . the liberty of english saints , to put in iron bands . they said within themselves , all 's well , how rich is our design . to kill and slay , spoil and destroy , the company of english men . so stout and big the sons of pride , whose hearts were full of lust , the great and mighty god hath sent , what they for us did trust . he crusht their rage and cruelty , the proud which did advance ; the wicked he hath now brought low , and troden down their place . amongst princes and nobles all , the lord contended sore . this is the fruit of cruelty , the saints they have the more . o all ye enemies abroad , why should you vainly think : of thorns to gather grapes , and make your sweet and pleasant drink . t is righteousnesse and peace doth kiss , and truth them both imbrace . if ever you would taste such fruit , let righteousness take place . and yea o sons and saints of god , what say you to this sight , shall not the goodnes of your god , be greatly your delight ? and now o saints , what creatures then , can carry you away . who have been blest with such a sight , to make you go astray . let all agree with us this day , let this be our thanksgiving : to give our selves and ours to god , and bring in all men living . another hym of mr. john goodwins . the mighty god hath once again appear'd from heaven high , his people to deliver from the house of slavery . the iron yoke he lately broke which men prepared had , to put upon the necks of saints to make their hearts full sad . the northern waves lift up their voice , and roar'd so terribly , that english land thereat 'gan quake , and tremble fearfully . of men , and horses fierce and stout their armies were prepared , gebal and ammon , amalek , and tyre were insnared , to joyn in sinfull league against the lord , the lord of might , and his despised ones , because they weak appear'd in fight . come , let us tread them down ( said they ) like clay and mire in street : wee 'l give them laws , and lords , and kings , and all as we think meet . our sword shall teach them what to know of god , what to believe : to worship god as they think meet , no longer will we give . their lives upon their knees they shall of us begg and intreat : the dust o' th earth we will compell them to lick at our feet . these swelling words the heavens above disdeigned long to bear : the starrs made ready for to fight , each one out of his sphere . and god , the holy one of those , who thus despised were , to stop the way 'gainst such rebukes , brought forth both shield and spear . his enemies heart he takes away , and gives unto his friends to them the wings of fear , for flight ; to these , a sword he sends , to execute his judgment just on them that sought their woe , to teach them violence to hate , and righteous things to do , the lord , and his , together thus triumphed gloriously , thousands by death , yet thousands more fell by captivity . this mighty work recall's to mind the dayes of ancient date , when god on high the swelling power of egypt did abate . and when the staffe of midian was by him broke in sunder , wherewith he smote the innocent , and sought to bring them under . this is a day the lord hath made , a day of grace and wonder , where in our prayers from the heave's he answer'd hath in thunder . out of the hands and bands of those , who sought to make us thrall , he hath deliver'd us by an hand far higher then they all . he that hath thus deliver'd us , shall be our god forever ; him will we love , him will we serve , forsake us be will never . finis . vvater-dipping no firm footing for church-communion: or considerations proving it not simply lawful, but necessary also (in point of duty) for persons baptized after the new mode of dipping, to continue communion with those churches, or imbodied societies of saints, of which they were members before the said dipping; and that to betray their trust or faith given unto jesus christ to serve him in the relation and capacity, whether of officers, or other members, in these churches (respectively) by deserting these churches, is a sin highly provoking in the sight of god. together with a post-script touching the pretended answer to the forty queries about church-communion, infant and after baptism. by john goodwin, a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) vvater-dipping no firm footing for church-communion: or considerations proving it not simply lawful, but necessary also (in point of duty) for persons baptized after the new mode of dipping, to continue communion with those churches, or imbodied societies of saints, of which they were members before the said dipping; and that to betray their trust or faith given unto jesus christ to serve him in the relation and capacity, whether of officers, or other members, in these churches (respectively) by deserting these churches, is a sin highly provoking in the sight of god. together with a post-script touching the pretended answer to the forty queries about church-communion, infant and after baptism. by john goodwin, a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son. goodwin, john, ?- . , [ ] p. printed by j.m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd, and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley., london, : . in part a reply to: allen, william. an answer to mr. j.g. his xl queries. with a final errata leaf. annotation on thomason copy: "december :". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng allen, william, d. . -- answer to mr. j.g. his xl queries -- early works to . baptists -- controversial literature -- early works to . baptism -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no vvater-dipping no firm footing for church-communion: or considerations proving it not simply lawful, but necessary also (in point of duty) f goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion vvater-dipping no firm footing for church-communion : or considerations proving it not simply lawful , but necessary also ( in point of duty ) for persons baptized after the new mode of dipping , to continue communion with those churches , or imbodied societies of saints , of which they were members before the said dipping ; and that to betray their trust or faith given unto jesus christ to serve him in the relation and capacity , whether of officers , or other members , in these churches ( respectively ) by deserting these churches , is a sin highly provoking in the sight of god . together with a post-script touching the pretended answer to the forty queries about church-communion , infant and after baptism . by john goodwin , a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son . ye did run well ; who did hinder you , that ye should not obey the truth ? gal. . . let them return unto thee , but return not thou unto them . jer. . . if there be any consolation in christ , if any comfort of love , if any fellowship of the spirit , if any bowels and mercies , fulfil ye my joy ; be ye like minded , having the same love , being of one accord , of one mind : let nothing be done through strife or vain glory , &c. phil. . , , . london , printed by j. m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley . . to the reader . good reader , how thou wilt interpret , or accept of , the considerations here presented unto thee , i know not . the ground of my doubt is , because they are but as so many candles lighted up to shew unto men the sun . never did my pen labor in a cause more expedite and facil : yet this ( i confess ) is fully balanced with the unreasonableness and difficulty of conviction in those persons , with whom i have chiefly to do . and since all proof ought to be made by somewhat more manifest and better known , then the conclusion in question ; he whose task it is to prove that twice two make four , must needs have an hard province to manage . my engagement in these papers is ( upon the matter ) only to prove , that jesus christ doth not require of his followers to be promise-breakers for his sake ( much less for a ceremonies sake ) when the matter of these promises is just , and holy , and good ; least of all when these promises have been solemnly made , and as in his own presence , and unto persons relating in faith and holiness unto himself . it is a polique maxim maintained by the consistory of rome , that promises are not to be kept with heretiques : but that promises should not be kept with saints and true beleevers , and so acknowledged , certainly is the apprehension and conceit of a troubled and maimed fancy . and i confess that the cure of a misused and distempered fancy is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , little better then an hopeless undertaking ; seldom atchieved by art , or skill ; sometimes by chance , or providence out of course . however , my small pains in teaching these papers to speak as they do , shall be largely rewarded , if god shall only please to use them as a shield , wherewith to defend those , which are yet whole and sound , from like impressions of distemper . thine , to serve thee in the things , both of thy present , and eternal peace , j. g. considerations , proving it not simply lawful , but necessary also in point of duty , for persons baptized after the new mode of diping , to continue in communion with those churches , or imbodied societies of saints , of which they were members before the said dipping or baptizing ; and that to betray their trust , or faith given unto jesus christ to serve him in the relation and capacity , whether of officers , or other members in these churches respectively , by deserting these churches , is a sin highly provoking in the sight of god . consideration i. it is evident from many notable passages of scripture , that god himself hath given a kind of superintendency or power of regulation unto the law of nature , the dictates and duties thereof , over institutions , and ceremonial commands , and the observations of these , ( even as he hath given a like power unto some institutions over others , mat. . . ) so that when and whilest the observation of an institution or ceremony cannot take place , or be practised , without trespassing upon some branch or other of the said law of nature , then and so long , the said observation is to give place : nor is the law of god requiring it , in such a case , broken , or disparaged in the least . have ye not read ( saith our saviour to the phaerssees ) what david did when he was an hungered , and they that were with him , how he entered into the house of god , and did eat the shewbread , which was not lawful for him to eat [ viz. in ordinary cases , ] neither for them which were with him , but for the priests only , mat. . , . and soon after : but if ye had known what this meaneth , i will have mercy , and not sacrifice , ye would not have condemned the guiltless : for the son of man * is lord even of the sabbath day . again , a few verses after : what man shall there be among you , that shall have one sheep , and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day , will he not lay hold on it , and lift it out ? how much then is a man better then a sheep ? elsewhere : if thou bring thy gift to the altar , and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee , leave there thy gift before the altar , and go thy way : first be reconciled to thy brother , and then offer thy gift , mat. . , . [ our brethren , in stead of reconciling themselves to their brethren , fall out with them , and then go and offer their gift of dipping . ] from the same lips in another place this dew of heaven falleth : the sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath , mark . . circumcision was a great institution of god , and obedience unto it most strictly and solemnly commanded : yet they to whom it was particularly commanded , omitted the observation and practise of it for forty years together ; and this without any other warrant , dispensation , relaxation , or permission from god , but only that which by the light and law of nature he granted unto them , and yet are blameless . and yet it may be worthy consideration , that the inconvenience in nature , i mean the degree of smart , pain , trouble , or danger in any kind , the prevention and avoyding whereof they judged ( and truly ) a sufficient dispensation from god for a forbearance of circumcision during their travel , was not so great or threatening , but that in probability they might have endured it , without the loss of any of their lives . the jews of later times , though rigid enough in their doctrine concerning the observation of their sabbath , yet have this maxim , periculum vitae pellit sabbatum , peril of life drives away the sabbath . but on the contrary it is no where to be found in scripture , that god giveth any superintendency unto institutions or ceremonial observations over the moral law , or authority to over-rule the dictates or any the principles of the law of nature , or to exempt any man from the performance of any duty required hereby . how much less will he justifie any man , in pleading the necessity of submitting to such a ceremony , which , or at least the necessity whereof , more probably is of humane , then divine institution , by way of bar to the performance of such duties , which the moral law , yea the law of nature it self , requireth ? therefore inexcuseable altogether are such persons , both in the sight of god , and men , who pretend themselves disobliged from the performance of such promises , which they have solemnly made unto their brethren , by a necessary of subjecting to an external rite or ceremony : how much more , when the observation of this rite or ceremony , is , and always hath been , by all the judicious , learned and faithful servants of god in the christian world ( a very few , and these upon no accompt , very considerable , excepted ) adjudged no ways necessary by vertue of any precept , or command of god ? god ( doubtless ) by the law of nature , and of love to their brethren , requireth of such men a forbearance of their ceremony ( though supposed of divine institution ) for the peace , comfort , spiritual accommodation and edification of their brethren , rather then the practise of it to their offence , trouble , and distraction , yea to the danger of the precious souls of many weak ones , who are emboldened by their example , having no sufficient ground in themselves for such a practise , to condemn themselves in allowing and practising the same ceremony . for , as our saviour of the sabbath , so say i of baptism : baptism was made for man , and not man for baptism . baptism was made , or ordained , for man , [ i. e. for mans benefit , comfort , and accommodation ; and consequently , is only to be used and administred in order hereunto , and so not to his disturbance , danger , or distraction , ] not man for baptism , [ i. e. man was not made or created by god for any such end as this , that baptism by his trouble , sorrow , molestation or danger should be magnified or exalted in the world . ] and why it should not savour of as much christianity , and be of equal acceptance with god , for the peace of the churches and servants of god in these days , to lay asleep a living ordinance for a time , as it did in the apostle paul to awaken a dead ordinance ( i mean circumcision ) upon the same account in his days , i understand not . consideration ii. the churches and societies of the saints , which are not actually and externally baptized with that figure or kind of baptism so much contended for , yet , supposing this very baptism to be the only baptismal ordinance of christ , and that it is his will that they should be baptized with it , they are , according to the rule and standard of divine estimate and acceptance , baptized therewith , as well as those persons themselves , who so impotently please themselves in their subjection to the letter of it . the standard , or standing rule of divine estimate , is this : if there be first a willing mind , a man is accepted according to that he hath , ( so it were better rendered , though the difference be not material , ) and not according to that he hath not , cor. . . by a like rule god likewise estimateth the sinfulness and wickedness of men . whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her , hath committed adultery with her already in his heart , mat. . . so then if the members of unbaptized churches ( so called ) have a willing mind , are prepared and large-hearted to submit unto all and every the ordinances of christ , and consequently , unto new-baptism it self , ( supposing this to be one of that retinue , ) but only want the opportunity of light and conviction so to judg & conceive of it , they are accepted with god , and esteemed by him , ( and ought they not then to be so with men ? ) as persons baptized with that very baptism . yea the truth is , that if the unbaptized churches sin , or be blame-worthy , for not being actually baptized after the manner of the brethren of new-baptism , these persons themselves are in a great degree accessary unto such their sin , partly by administring unto them only weak and insufficient grounds for their conviction , partly also ( and more especially ) by causing , through their pride , frowardness , insolency and disdainfulness of spirit , together with many other strains of most unchristian behaviour towards them , that sacrifice of the lord ( if such it be ) to be abhorred . besides , i am all thoughts made , that the far greater part of those , who have been prevailed with to accept of a dip for baptism , neither have , nor ever had , either that love unto , nor sacred and reverent esteem of , all the ordinances of christ , which thousands of those have , whom god hath not yet so perswaded . so then they who refuse communion with such saints , who have not been actually baptized with their baptism , upon this pretence only , that they have not been thus baptized , reject the communion of those , whom god reputeth to have been baptized with that very baptism , for the want of which such men reject them , ( always supposed , as hath been said , that the dipping-baptism is the sole baptism . ordinance of christ . ) consideration iii. the scripture very frequently and expresly teacheth , that by faith men become and are made the children of abraham , and sons of god . but as many as received him , to them gave he power to become the sons of god , even to them that beleeve on his name , joh. . . but ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus , joh. . . see also rom. . , , . if then true beleevers be the sons of god , then must all they needs be bastards , and no sons of god , but children of satan , who are not their brethren . and if they who are the sons of god , and consequently their brethren , be ashamed of them , and shall refuse to own them in their church-fellowship , are they not ashamed of those , of whom the lord christ professeth before heaven and earth that he is not ashamed ; no , not ashamed to own them in the relation of brethren ? for both he that sanctifieth , and they who are sanctified , are all of one : for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren , hebr. . . must not then jesus christ needs look upon those men , as greater in their own conceit , either in holiness , or in dignity , or in both , then himself , who are ashamed of such persons , of whom he is not ashamed ; yea indeed in whom he glorieth , as being ( with their fellows ) his fulness ; and in whom he shall come to be glorified and admired in the great day ? a thess. . . or is not the great jealousie of christ like to be provoked , when men shall presume to make , or call , that common , which he hath sanctified with his own blood , and made express declaration from heaven accordingly ? or can either a thing , or person , be made , or called common , in a more disgraceful , or reproachful way , then when men shall separate from them as unclean , or defective in holiness ? consideration iv. such persons , whom god judgeth meet for communion and fellowship with himself , and his son jesus christ , the reasons and grounds of this his judgment being visible in these persons , especially being acknowledged also by men , ought not to be judged unmeet for any holy communion with the holiest of men , especially not by those , who do acknowledg those things in these persons , which are the grounds of their acceptance into the said communion with god . the apostle instructing the strong in faith , in their duty towards the weak [ i. e. towards those who were at present ignorant of many things which the other knew ] saith thus : him that is weak in the faith , receive you : and again ; let not him that eateth [ i. e. the strong in faith , who understands his liberty ] despise him that eateth not , [ i. e. the weak , ] rom. , . the reason , why god would have no despising of weak christians on the one hand , nor judging of those that were strong on the other , is delivered by the apostle in these words , [ vers . . ] for god hath accepted him ; i. e. as well the weak , as the strong ; and again , the strong as well as the weak , ( the reason equally relating to both the preceding clauses in the verse ; ) clearly avouching gods accepting of persons , when discovered , or acknowledged by men , for an obliging ground upon these , not to despise them , or [ which is by the apostle interpreted as the same ] to reject them from their communion . now the grounds of gods acceptance of men and women as meet for communion with him , and his son jesus christ , are from place to place in the scriptures declared such , which are owned and acknowledged by persons themselves baptized according to the new and late edition of this ordinance ( so much corrected , enlarged , and amended ) in those churches , and their members , who at present make use of the former edition only . in every nation ( saith peter , speaking of god ) he that feareth him , and worketh righteousness , is accepted with him , acts . . the kingdom of god is not meat and drink , but righteousness and peace , and joy in the holy ghost : for he that in these things serveth christ , is acceptable unto god , &c. rom. . , . if we walk in the light , as he is in the light , we have fellovvship one with another , &c. ( to omit other places of like import , which are many . ) now the brethren of the new baptized churches themselves , at least such of them whose judgments and consciences have not been drowned by the dipping of their bodies , do acknowledg all the said qualifications , as the fear of god , the working righteousness , &c. to be as visible in the members of bodies by them called , unbaptized , as in their own . yea some of them as yet retain so much christian ingenuity , as to confess , that in our unbaptized churches ( to please jews , we speak in the jewish language ) we have persons of as great , or greater worth , for holiness , righteousness , the fear and love of god , with all other christian accomplishments , as themselves have in the best of their congregations , notwithstanding the unimaginable advantage of their baptism . i wish in my soul for their sakes , that god would mercifully please to put it into their hearts seriously to consider , of what insufferable height and insolency of spirit it strongly savoreth , for men to judg those unworthy their communion , whom the most holy god , the great and high possessor of heaven and earth , accepteth into his . consideration v. the main pillar upon which the house of our new dippers of men , and dividers of churches , is built , is the signification of the verb baptizo , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , translated to baptize : as for others , they are much more crazy , although neither is this of any great strength . but how few are there amongst those , who with so much violence and height of confidence build troubles , sorrows , distractions and confusions of christian churches , upon this pillar , that understand little or much what the said word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} meaneth , or what it signifieth . for ought they know ( upon their own account ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} may signifie , either to tide , or to run , or to build , as well as to dip ; so that all the faith they have , of the proper signification of the said word , is built upon the authority and tradition of men . and the truth is , that men of greatest judgment and knowledg in the greek tongue are not agreed about the adequate or exact signification of it . certain it is , that the word which properly , primitively , and originally signifieth to dip , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , nor {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} being only a frequentative ( as grammarians speak ) and of a diminutive form , from the original {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is from the verb {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( with many others of like consideration in the greek tongue . ) and very considerable it is , that the scripture of the new testament , where ever it hath occasion to express the act of dipping , constantly useth the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , never {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , [ see luk. . . joh. . . revel. . . ] as on the contrary , where ever it hath occasion to mention or express the sacred action of baptism , it never useth the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , but always , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . yea it is granted by the dipping grandees themselves , that the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is often found in the new testament it self , where it signifieth nothing less ( or rather somewhat less ) then dipping . yea that when it is used in the sacramental signification , that it doth not signifie or import , dipping , unless it be said to signifie undipping , or lifting out of the water also , is to me evident from most , if not all the places , where the sacred action known by the name of baptizing , is expressed by it . i shall argue only that one ( at present ) mat. . . the apostles commission there , as to the matter of baptizing , is expressed by the said word ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. now if the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} here signifies to dip , and not to undip , or heave out of the water , then had the apostles no authority at all , or commission from christ , to perform the one half of the baptismal transaction , ( we speak now according to the dipping principles ) viz. that which consists in the lifting or taking up out of the water , those whom they were to dip into or under the water : but in case they did raise or help them out of the water , they did it upon their own heads , and without commission ; and consequently it could be no part of the baptismal transaction . how unreasonable a thing then is it , and unworthy christians , to swell against their peaceable brethren , ( their brethren partakers of like precious faith with themselves ) to separate themselves from their holy assemblies , as if they were the synagogues of satan , to pronounce them unclean for christian communion , &c. upon the account only , or chiefly , of humane tradition , and of such things whereof themselves can have no certain knowledg , no , nor yet men of far greater learning and knowledg , then they ? consideration vi . no authority can discharge , or disoblige , but that which is either greater then , or at least , equal unto that which bindeth . the authority of such a command of god , which is manifestly and undisputeably such , and is so acknowledged by the consciences of all men , is greater , then of any such command , whereof it is matter of doubtful disputation whether he be the author , or no . it is ( i presume ) no mans doubt or question , but that , . it is the command of god . that they who have promised things lawful , and meet to be done , and in their power to do , should perform their promise accordingly ; how much more when such promises have been made in a sacred and solemn manner , in the presence of christ , and of a great number of his saints round about him , yea and ( in some sort ) unto christ himself ? nor , . can it be any christian mans question , but that christian offices of love , as the edifying , comforting , admonishing , counselling , watching over brethren , supporting those that are weak , refreshing the bowels of those that stand in need , with other services belonging either to elders , or members of christian congregations , are things very lawful to be done , yea and more then lawful , especially when they have been promised . therefore unless men , who have promised such things as these , can shew as fair , as full , as express a discharge from god , from the performance of them , as that command of his is , which he hath layed upon them for their performance , they are to be looked upon as promise-breakers ( and this of one of the worst and most horrid kinds ) if they shall refuse , or neglect , to perform them . now i appeal to the consciences of those persons themselves , who upon any pretence whatsoever ( especially upon the pretence of a false baptism , so called only by themselves ) shall , after their covenant struck , and promise made , with and to any christian church , or society of saints , to perform all the particulars specified , turn their backs upon this church , thus treading and trampling under foot their holy covenant and promise , whether they can produce any thing from god , or from the word of god , so particular and express for their discharge and disobligement in this kind , as that command of his is , by which both they and all others stand charged to keep promise . i fear the sin of churchbreaking , yea and church-deserting without the leave or consent of the church deserted , will not be understood or duly considered by men , until the punishment of it come to be suffered , and then it will be too late . a pretended defect in , or of , baptism , will not excuse any mans waxing wanton , or kicking with the heel , against christ in any of his churches , or assemblies of his saints ; no nor yet any such defect as this in truth of being . consideration vii . in that very text of scripture , hebr. . . wherein our new baptists place a great part of their trust for the support of their cause , there is evidently imported a plurality of baptisms ; the doctrine or explication of which is here numbered amongst the foundations of christ , i. e. such heads of doctrine , wherein persons were wont to be instructed ( as it were ) in the infancy of their christian profession , in order to their further increase in knowledg . now whether the holy ghost by mentioning , baptisms ( in the plural number ) did not intend to insinuate , that however in one sence and consideration there be only one baptism , ephes. . . [ viz. in respect of the signification and end of baptizing , ] yet in respect of variety of subjects , and of different forms of administration , wherein it might be , or was to be , administred , it might not be many , is ( i suppose ) not so easie upon grounds satisfactory to a considering man , to determine : yet i judg it much more difficult for any man upon such an account to prove the contrary . therefore such persons who call christian churches and societies of men , accursed , or unclean , for want of such or such a determinate form of baptizing , are not able to give any reasonable or christian account of such their hard sayings ; nor yet to prove , that a plurality of baptisms , as well in respect of different kinds of subjects , as of external modes of administration , was not intended , or allowed by christ , nor ( consequently ) that the baptism practised in the churches of their reproach , is not a baptism approved by him . consideration viii . every kingdom ( saith christ ) divided against it self , is brought to desolation : and every city or house divided against it self , shall not stand , mat. . . meaning , that in all communities and societies of men , greater or l●sser , divisions of one part against another , threaten dissolution of the whole . in consideration whereof some of the ancient fathers judged a schismatical rending and dividing of the church , to proceed only from a diabolical spirit , and to be a sin of very near affinity with that which is unpardonable * . now although i judg this somewhat too hard and heavy a censure of schismatical practises , and in this respect like to the censures wherewith schismatiques themselves always burthen those christian societies , from which they rend themselves , for wanting one thing or other that should make them cize with the standard of their imaginations , yet due consideration had of all those high appearances of the holy ghost in scripture against schisms , divisions , strifes and contentions amongst imbodied saints , the sin of schism must needs be adjudged a sin of a deep demerit , and high provocation , in the sight of god , and of christ . and the more precipitate , violent and heady any schism shall be , and with how much the more contempt , and neglect of those , in respect either of giving , or receiving satisfaction about the pretended ground of schismatizing , against whom the sin shall be committed , and again , the less considerable , all circumstances duly weighed , the matter pretended for the schism-making shall be , so much the more haynous must the sin needs be , and punishable with the sorer judgment by god . now whether the schism made by the rebaptizing party of professors amongst us , from those churches , of which they were lately members , upon the only pretence of a defect of baptism , be not fearfully aggravated by all the said circumstances , i leave to their own consciences , when god shall have awakened them , to consider . consideration ix . that determinate kind of baptism , which is the fire-brand of contention amongst the saints , and which hath put the christian world about us into a flame , is by one of the gravest authors , and and greatest apostles of the anti-paedo baptistical faith , called ( and that with evidence enough of truth ) a carnal ceremony † , i. e. an external rite of some sacred signification , or import . now to make new partition walls of carnal ceremonies , and this not only between abrahams spiritual seed , and the prophane gentile part of the world , but between one part of this blessed seed it self , and another , so that the one , because of this ceremony rising up in their way , may not come at , to enjoy any spiritual communion , with the other , is it not the founding of a new kind of judaism in the world ; and the making work for christ to be crucified a second time for the dissolution of it ? consideration x. ignorance in some things appertaining to the knowledg of god , and the mystery of christ , whether found in a church , or in particular persons , rendereth neither the one nor the other unclean upon any such terms , but that both may lawfully , and without the least tincture of guilt , be conversed with in a church-way . otherwise there will neither church , nor member , be found upon earth , but whose communion will defile us ; in as much as the apostle , speaking as well of himself and his fellow apostles , as of the intire successive body of christians in all ages , saith ; we know in part , and we prophecy in part , cor. . . again , where churches , or persons , know but in part , it cannot be expected they should practise in whole , or in full . he is a good christian , who practiseth and walketh up to his light , though he doth not walk above it , yea although his light be somewhat low , and mixt with much darkness . and though an erring or mistaking conscience , will not simply or totally justifie a concurring practise , yet will it justifie it comparatively ; it being better to follow the dictate or light of a mis-guided or mis-taught conscience , then to rebel against it . otherwise sad were the case of those sacrilegious church-breakers , who out of conscience ( i judg no worse of many of them ) practise this enormity . now then they who give sentence against a church , or people , as unclean for communion , only because they do not practise baptismal dipping , must ground the equity of such a sentence , either , . upon their non-conviction of the necessity of such a practise ; or , . upon the non-practise it self , which they must suppose , either to be concurrent with , or repugnant unto , the light of their judgments and consciences . if the former of these , the ignorance or non-conviction of a church , or people , of the necessity of dipping , be pretended for a ground of the sentence we speak of , to justifie this pretence , it must be proved , that every mistake or dissatisfaction in judgment , in any controversal point whatsoever of like difficulty or disputeableness with that about the necessity of dipping , rendereth a church or people unclean for communion . but i look to see jesus christ as he is , long before this be proved . . if the ground of the said sentence be the latter , the non-practise of dipping , then , in case it be supposed that this non-practise be a matter of conscience in the church or people we speake of , and confirm to their judgments , they are adjudged unclean for not defiling , or not sinning against , their conscience . but far be it from us to suspect our brethren in the faith , of such a judgment as this . if it be supposed to be contrary to their judgment , and that in refusing to practise baptismal dipping , they go against their consciences , then are the supposers judgers of evil thoughts , supposing that which they cannot prove , indeed have no ground or reason at all to suspect , but ground in abundance to conclude the contrary . so that they can upon no christian or reasonable ground pronounce any such hard sentence against their non dipping brethren , as of uncleanness for church communion . and if they would but please plainly and clearly to declare , wherein they place the high demerit , the unpardonable crime of non-dipping , whilest men remain dissatisfied , either touching the lawfulness , or necessity of the practise , i verily beleeve they would soon be ashamed of their notion , and out of hand pull down all they have built upon it . consideration xi . when the apostle writeth to the churches in his days , in sundry the inscriptions of his epistles unto them , wherein he describeth them , he insereth the mention of their sanctification , their calling to be saints , their being beloved of god , their saintship , their faithfulness in christ , &c. but never so much as hinteth their having been baptized . which is a strong presumption at least ( if not a demonstration ) that in case it be supposed that all these churches were baptized , yet the apostle did not look upon their baptism as any part of their church-ship , or of the visibility thereof , much less as any essential part or point of either . for if such a thing shall be supposed , what reason can be imagined , why their baptism should not once , or twice at least , have been mentioned in their discription , as well as their faith , sanctification , calling &c. so frequently , and ( well-nigh ) constantly ( i mean , one , or other of them . ) so then it is a plain case that the apostle doth not estimate the truth of churches by the observation or practise of baptism ( much less by the practise of such or such a determinate kind of baptizing ) but by the faith and holiness of the persons inchurched . baptism is never mentioned so much as by way of commendation , either of church or person , ( at least not more then the observance of other ordinances ) no not when several other matters of praise are insisted on in reference unto either : ( see cor. , . rom. . . cor. . , . ephes. . . luk. . . acts. . . to pass over other texts of like import ) and yet many things may be commendable in either , which are not essentially requisite to their being . and ( doubtless ) if men were not under some strong enchantment , and the rational powers of their souls strangely held , in reference ( at least ) to the subject we now speak o● , such an imagination as this would never have been found amongst all their thoughts , that baptism according to one mode , or other , should be a constituting principle of a true church . consideration xii . when the apostle paul instructeth christian churches with their respective members , who and what manner of persons they are , who are unmeet for their christian communion , he mentioneth fornicators , covetous , idolaters , railers , drunkards , extortioners , disorderly walkers , &c. but never persons of an holy and blamless conversation , whether baptized , or unbaptized . if our brethren reply , that there was no occasion why he should mention persons unbaptized , in as much as there was none such in these days , who lived holily , or had the names of brethren amongst christians ; we answer , . that our brethren are still wont to use slime in stead of mortar to build their babel ; i mean , to make use of light conjectures , loose suppositions , presumptions , self-imaginations , &c. in stead of solid and clear demonstrations , either from the scriptures , or sound principles in reason , for the defence and support of their cause . to say that in the times we speak of , there were no saints reputed brethren in any christian church , who were unbaptized , is somewhat lighter then a meer conjecture , and not of any more weight then such a supposition , which hath much reason and strength of probability against it ( as hath been shewed elsewhere . ) . in case we should releive the poor , and grant our brethren their said supposition without proof , yet how do they know that in case there had been any unbaptized persons reputed brethren amongst the churches ( especially such , the truth and validity of whose baptism had been the only question , for this is the case between us and our brethren ) that the apostle would have ranked them amongst fornicators , drunkards , idolaters , &c. and prohibited the churches of christ communion as well with the one , as with the other ? but . when our brethren pronounce the saints and servants of god unclean for church communion , upon a pretence only ( or be it a true plea ) of their not being baptized , do they not intrude themselves into the prerogative office of christ , making new orders , laws , and constitutions of themselves for church communion , which were never made by him ? or if they desire to be judged innocent of this great offence , let them produce from the gospel some order or law of this tenor , or import , that he that hath only been washed in the name of christ , and not dipt over head and ears , shall be unclean for christian communion , although the image of god in righteousness and true holiness be never so resplendent and lovely in him . consideration xiii . a submission unto the ordinance of baptism upon those terms on which it is obtruded by our brethren upon all sorts of beleevers , is , as themselves also acknowledg , yea and boast of ( though to the shame both of their opinion , and practise in the way ) very offensive , burthensome , and greivous to the flesh . and the truth is , that when men or women , especially being any thing weak or tender of constitution , shall in winter or cold seasons be perswaded unto it , they had need purifie themselves , as men at sea use to do ( god himself observing and reporting it , job . . . ) by reason of the breakings of leviathan , i. e. when they expect nothing but death by being wrackt by this unruly and formidable creature . yea for many to go into rivers , or ponds to be dowsed over head and ears , in such seasons , is as express a tempting god , as a passing through the fire would be . one of those poor women lately perswaded into the watery paradise about newington , had much ado to recover the air with her life , saying when she came from the water to her self , words , either these , or to a like effect ; that she was almost gon , and that well might the business of baptizing be resembled to christs death , for she was nigh unto death by it . the rest , who had somewhat a better return of their venture , yet sustained loss . there was not very long before a maid-servant living within a door or two of me , in the city , who being led ( by what spirit let understanding christians judg ) to meet with jesus christ under water , was so far from being healed of the infirmity , which she carried thither , that she brought with her out of the water the extream torture of several days together . what became of her after this , i know not . and how severely the healths , yea and lives of men and women are almost continually threatened , and sometimes severely handled , by the waters of baptismal dipping , are matters better known to many others , then my self . and if they be thus terribly austere to the flesh in the southern parts of england , what may we judg them to be in the northen parts of scotland , and in climates of far less communion with the warmth and heat of the sun , then it ? yea mr fisher himself imputes pauls being so tardy and backward to the duty of dipping , as to need such a sharp exuscitation hereunto , as he conceits the words of ananias , and now why tarriest thou , &c. do import ; he imputes ( i say ) this supposed backwardness in paul to the said supposed duty , to a sensibleness in him of some tediousness in the service * . a little before he hath these words : i know no mans flesh forward to it , further then by faith it is over-powerd . so that by consent of both parties , baptism by dipping , upon such terms , and under such circumstances as our new baptists urge the necessity of it , is a burthen exceeding grievous , and next to that which is intolerable , to the flesh : yea neither party needs be tender , upon such terms to vote it a yoke more heavy then circumcision under the law , which yet peter plainly tells the jews , was such a yoke , which neither they nor their . fathers were able to bear ; yea and upon this account , calleth the putting of it upon the necks of the disciples , a tempting of god . now therefore why tempt ye god to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples , which , &c * . concerning the other sacramental service of the lords supper , it is sufficiently known that it is in no degree burthensome , or troublesom to the flesh , but rather of a cherishing , nourishing , and welcom import to it . nor is it ( i suppose ) the sence of our dissenting brethren , but that gospel baptism was by christ calculated and intended for babes in christ , for beleevers of the first peep ( as it were ) out of the shell , and greatest weakness , in the faith ; as on the other hand , the sacramental sevice of the supper was in like manner prepared and ordained by him for beleevers of grown stature and strength . now then i cannot but greatly wonder , that our brethren should esteem it a matter of such high impiety in us , and deserving no less censure or punishment , then excommunication it self , to judg it contrary both to the wisdom and tenderness of bowels in christ towards his saints , to provide the strongest meat for his weakest babes , and milk for his strong men ; to put his new-born babes to bear the heat and burthen of the day of christianity , whilest his old souldiers , men of strength and courage , are feasting with bread and wine at his table . considering what a stream and torrent of scriptures there are that run a head against such a notion as this , we know not how to handle our judgments or consciences to make them of this opinion , that evangelical baptism consisteth in any thing so like the piercings of a sword to the flesh , or which requireth such an overpowring of faith to subject men unto it , as our brethren themselves represent their dipping to be , and to require . nor can we with all the might of our own understandings , nor with all the additional help of the light hitherto afforded us by our brethren , tell how to beleeve or conceive , that all the land of judea , and they of ierusalem , with all the region round about iordan , were all over-powered by any such high hand of faith , who yet came thick and threefold , troops upon troops , and companies after companies , to be baptized of john , and were baptized accordingly . consideration xiv . for those who are babes in christ and weak in the faith ; yea for those , who know but in part ( and higher then thus , neither doth their knowledg it self rise , who think they know more then all the world besides ) to mistake , where ( in a manner ) all the judicious , learned , and grave , all the zealous , faithful , and best conscienced christians , and servants of god throughout the world , fathers , martyrs , reformers , and others , for sixteen generations together , even from the days of the apostles , until now , have mistaken , and not been able to discover the truth , or mind of god , is ( doubtless ) the most venial and pardonable mistake , that can well be imagined ; yea although it should be supposed that the subject matter , wherein , or about which , this mistake hath been , be of very great weight and consequence . such as this , and no whit worse or more culpable then this , is the mistake ( if yet a mistake it be ) of those churches and saints , who judg it no ways necessary , nor agreeable to the mind of christ , for them to desire a baptismal dipping , having been regularly ( as they conceive ) and sufficiently baptized in their infancy . now the common and best-known principles of reason and equity , ( and of christianity most of all ) upon mistakes of the most-venial nature , and which are incident to the best , the most watchful and faithful of men , teach men to inflict the lightest punishment , whether by censure , or otherwise ( if any at all ) that well may be . if then to judg and condemn a church , or people of god , as a spurious and unclean congregation , with whom no man can joyn in church-communion , without polluting himself in the sight of god , be an high and heavy censure ( which i presume no man questions ) then must they , who inflict this censure only upon the account of the demerit of the aforesaid mistake , needs be extreamly irregular , unrighteous , and unreasonable in so doing . and yet they who in the open view of the world , inflict it by an actual , hasty , and ( as it were ) a frightful rending and tearing off themselves from such churches , inflict it upon the hardest and most unchristian terms that can be imagined . and give me leave here only to add this ; that i know no more pregnant a symptome of a strong inchantment , delusion , or distemper , then when a petty handful of men are rank of confidence and conceit , that all the world are out of their witts , but themselves ; and that they are as so many stars of the first magnitude , and all other men but as the snuffs of so many candles . consideration xv . that baptism , how duly soever administred , is no churchmaker , but at the highest , a church-adorner ( and this possibly in some cases only too ) is evident from hence ; that the lord christ , whilst he was yet unbaptized , was as much the head , and as legitimate an head , of the church , as after his baptism . and as christ obtained not the head-ship of the church , nor right unto it , by being baptized , so neither do beleevers obtain their right to membership in a church , by their being baptized . yea it is but conjectural and traditional divinity , to affirm or hold , that all the members of all the churches in the apostles days were baptized . certain i am that baptism cannot rationally pretend to so much interest to constitute , ●● legitimate , members of christian churches under the gospel , as circumcision might to constitute the members of the iewish church under the law . yet this church was altogether as true a church , and all abrahams children by isaak as true members of this church , when and whilest they had no practise of circumcision amongst them ( as viz. during their fourty years journeying through the wilderness ) as when it was in the most regular and standing use among them . yea ( doubtless ) abraham and his family were as much the church of god , before the ordinance it self of circumcision was delivered unto him , as afterwards . and why the iewish children before the eight day , should not be judged members of that church , as well as after , i understand not . therefore without all controversie baptism is no builder of churches , although , as some men now set it on work , it is a puller of them down . nor doth it at all savour of gospel dispensation , that god should build his spiritual temple upon foundations made of a carnal ceremony , or that he should deny that poor and mean priviledg ( comparatively ) of church-membership , unto that grace ( i mean , faith ) unto which he hath vouchsafed that high and heavenly prerogative , the making of men to becom the sons of god . besides , that which is no where mentioned as commending any man , either unto god , or men , more then , or so much as , many other duties or qualifications , cannot reasonably be judged more necessary to any mans regular admission into church-fellowship , then those other things . now baptism is no where represented in the scriptures as commending any man , either unto god , or men , nor as any considerable testimony of any mans faith , vast multitudes of people having been baptized by iohn , yea and by christ himself or his disciples , whereas there were very few true beleevers amongst them ( mat. . . mar. . . luk. , . compared with iohn . . . ioh. . , acts. . . ) whereas other qualifications , as faith , love , righteousness , holiness , humility , the new creature , the hearing of the word , the searching of the scriptures , ( with many others of like character ) are frequently insisted upon , as matters of worthy testimony unto those , in whom they were found , yea and some of them of signal acceptance with god . therefore certainly it is a most groundless and importune conceit , to estimate the truth of a church of christ by the baptism of the members ; or to deny unto such congregations or bodies of saints , the legitimacy of church-ship , upon a pretence and conceit of their not being baptized , which are in all things , which commend a church , either unto god , or men , the glory of churches , yea and ( in the apostles sence , cor. . . ) the glory of christ himself . consideration xvi . the main , if not the only , ground and reason why our newbaptizing and baptized brethren , reject the baptism , so esteemed and practised among us , is , because they suppose it to be a meer nullity , and to have nothing in it of the baptism appointed by christ . upon this their supposition they proceed with the utmost severity against us , they excommunicate us , and deliver us up to satan , that we may learn rightly to baptize . but if the lord christs rule be true , a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit ( mat. . . ) and again ; that every tree is known by his own fruit ( luk. . . ) then is our baptism no corrupt baptism , but the baptism commended by christ ; or however , far from being a nullity . for it is a true rule : nonentis , nulli sunt affectus , nulla opperatio : nullities , or non-entities , have neither affections , nor effects , or operations : produce nothing which is proper to be produced by a real and truly excistent cause . but that baptism amongst us , which our brethren very inconsiderately and invita veritate , vote to be a nullity , is as efficacious , as operative , in respect of all the main ends of baptism ( the baptism i mean intended by christ ) as theirs is , or can be ; yea in respect of some of these ends , if not all , it hath the preheminency . for . it doth as solemnly , with as much authority and power , with as express a signification to the understandings and apprehensions of the world about us , testifie and declare us the profesed disciples and followers of jesus christ , as that baptism practized by them can do . nay in this ( which is one of the most considerable ends of baptism ) it is of the two more efficacious then theirs . for their baptism is ( comparatively ) a kind of barbarian to the world : nor do the generality of men interpret or look upon it , as any thing more significative , or assertive , of their owning the name and faith of jesus christ ; then our baptism ; which was also theirs , untill they renounced it , by substituting another in the place of it . yea the sence of the world , and of the generality of persons , amongst whom they live , is so far from being either , that by their infant-baptism they stood insufficiently declared the professed disciples of christ , or that by their new baptism they make any materiall addition unto that their declaration , that it inclines rather to this , viz. that they betake themselves to a re-baptism , more to disobliege themselves from what their infant-baptism ingaged them unto , then to strengthen or make valid that ingagement ; which , at least as they apprehend , cannot receive any addition of strength or validitie by any further baptism , but they are jealous that it may be disinabled , or at least disadvantaged , by such an after-baptism . of which apprehension i wish they had not , and yet much more , that they may not in time have , too just a ground . but however , nothing can be more evident , then that that baptism is most serviceable and efficacious to testifie or demonstrate a person , man or woman , to be a professor of , and to own , the name and faith of jesus christ in the sight of the world , whose signification and import in this behalf is best known unto the world . if so , then is our baptism , as valid , as efficacious , in respect of this great end of baptism , as our brethrens new baptism can be ; and consequently , is far from being a nullity . . our baptism is altogether as operative , as bearing , as ingaging upon our judgments and consciences , to become the reall , loyall , and true disciples of jesus christ , as theirs can be upon theirs , or could be upon ours , should we come under it . for out of the sence and conscience we have that we have been baptized , and still own and stand by that our baptism , we expect no other but the severest judgment and condemnation , which belong to covenant-breakers with their god , from his hand , if we shall be found unfaithfull under this our baptismall ingagement . and certain i am , that our brethrens new-baptism can have no richer , no fuller , no more vigorous or potent an influence upon their judgements and conscience in this kind , then so . i wish that theirs may hold weight with ours in this ballance . if our baptism , whilst it was theirs also , had not the same weight of engagement upon their consciences , which it hath upon ours , have they reason to judge us for it , and not rather themselves ? therefore in respect of this great end also of baptism , ours is no whit more a nullitie , then theirs . . ( and lastly ) nor can we , or they ( reasonably , and upon ground ) judge that our baptism ( as we call baptism ) is less edifying , strengthening , comforting , to the inner man , then theirs . our souls , through the grace and goodness of our good god unto us , have prospered as much under that baptism which we own , and by means of it ( as far as we are able to compute ) as we can , upon consultation had with al oracles that are like to inform us in the point , expect they would , or should have done , under that baptism , whose threshold our brethren place so neer the threshold of christ himself . i beleeve there are thousands yet abiding under our baptism , who would not willingly exchange spirituall estates with the best of those , who to better their estates in this kind , have sought security under the wing and shelter of a new baptism : yea i make very little question , but that if our brethren of this new baptism ( at least many of them ) would deal ingeniously and freely ( and what is this but christianly ? ) with us in the point , they would acknowledge and confess , that they carried far the greater part of that spirituall treasure , of which they are at present possest , from under that baptism which they forsook , unto that which they have taken in exchange for it . yea i heartily wish for the sake of some of them , whom i know , that their new baptism doth not help to diminish their old grace . therefore in respect of this great end also and benefit of baptism , the building up of the inner man in grace and peace , our baptism is no whit behind theirs ; but , if experience will be allowed to umpire , much before it . i know no other end of baptism but what is easily reduceable to one of these three . set them then to judg ( as the apostle speaketh in another case ) who are least esteemed in the church , whether that baptism be like to be a nullity , which acts and performs , and this with authority and power , all the ends , services , purposes and intents of baptism ; yea and in most of them , if not in all , quits it self at a more worthy rate of efficacy and success , then that which pretends to the honour of being the sole reality and truth . consideration xvii . it is no where to be found in scripture , that any church of christ , or imbodied society of beleevers , was commanded by god , or christ , or his apostles , to be dipped ; nor yet threatened , or reproved by any of them , for the non-practise of dipping . if this be denyed , let the scriptures , one , or more be produced ( for as yet none have been ) for the justification of such a denyal . is it not then presumption in the highest , and an assuming of an anti christian power , to impose laws upon christian societies , which the lord christ never imposed ; yea and to censure and scandalize them with the odious and reproachful terms of anti-christian , and unclean , only for the transgressions of their own laws ? nor will it serve the turn , to pretend , that it is to be found in scripture , that particular members of churches or imbodied societies of saints , are commanded to be dipped , and by consequence , that churches , or whole churches , ought to be so likewise . for ( besides that this is contrary to the avouched principles of those , who are like thus to pretend , who affirm , that the scripture no where reports , or makes , any person a member of a church , but only such who were dipped , before they entred that relation , and consequently could have no such command imposed on them , being now members ) it followeth not , that because some particular members of a body were required to be dipped , therefore the whole body was commanded to be dipped likewise ; especially not upon such terms , that unless it would be thus wholy , universally , and in all its members dipt , it should be unclean in the sight of god and men , and all communion with it sinful . therefore they who impose such a law as this upon christian churches , or societies , and make them heynous transgressors for the breach of it , punishing and censuring them accordingly , are usurpers of the high prerogative of god , and of christ , claiming and exercising a lordship over the faith and consciences of men . consideration xviii . yea i beleeve it is more then the greatest oracle of baptismal dipping under heaven , will ever be able to prove to the satisfaction of a conscience christianly considerate , that there is any precept or command of christ in the scriptures , whereby it is made sinful for any person whatsoever , not only not to be diped , but to be not so much as baptized in one form , or other . for first , certain it is , that it is no sin unto any person whatsoever to be un-dipt , whilest there is no person to be found sufficiently authorized by christ to administer dipping unto him . and however the camel be swallowed whole , either by the largness of the consciences , or by the scantness of the understandings , of our metropolitan dippers , yet is it not so easie for them to justifie the authentiqueness or validity of that commission , by which they act ( without fear or trembling ) the parts of dippers . but of this elswhere . secondly , that precept of christ , mat. . . which ( as far as i understand ) they make their cheif treasure to support them in their wars against their brethren , doth at no hand make those transgressors , who are not dip-wise baptized , no nor yet those who are not baptized , either so , or otherwise . for first , here is no precept , charge , or command given unto any person , one or more , but unto the apostles only . go ye therefore [ i. e. ye apostles ] and teach all nations , baptizing them , &c. now as a law imposed upon a magistrate for the discharge of his office , doth not make a subject guilty by his non-performance of it , nay he [ the subject ] should be more guilty , in case he should observe it : so neither doth a charge layd by christ upon his apostles in reference to their special office & ministry , oblige any other sort of men to the observation of it * secondly , in these words , baptizing them , it cannot reasonably be conceived that they were injoyned to baptize any person , or persons . against their wills , or whether they would , or no . no , nor is it a matter of easie resolution , what is the antecedent or substantive to this relative pronoun , them ; or whom , or what persons they are , whom our saviour here authorizeth his apostles to baptize . therefore , thirdly , here being no command layd upon any person to be baptized , or to desire baptism of the apostles , it clearly follows , that the apostles are here injoyned only to baptize such persons , who shall freely and voluntarily require the same at their hand . nor , fourthly , can it be proved from these words , teaching them to observe all things , whatsoever i have commanded them , that the apostles did teach saints , beleevers , or others , to require baptism of them , unless it were first proved , that this was one particular of those things , which christ commanded his apostles to teach the nations to observe . but i beleeve there is no day in the year auspicious for our new baptists to undertake the proof of this . nor , fifthly , do we find , that the apostles in the course of their ministry , did ever teach either church or person , to demand , or seek baptism at their hand ; much less threaten them , or charge them with disobedience unto christ for not seeking it . sixthly , in case it should be granted , that the apostles by the tenor and vertue of their commission , might , and did , teach beleevers to observe the law of requiring baptism at their hands , yet it followeth not from hence , that by vertue of this commission they had power also given them to make it a standing law for all pastors and teachers to the worlds end , who were to succeed them in the preaching the gospel , to impose the observation of the same law upon all beleevers ; considering . that water-baptism , as appears partly by the express intentions of god about it in the first setting it on foot in the world , ioh. . . partly also , in that there is never mention made of any administration of baptism in any place , but only upon the first coming or preaching of the gospel therein , although there were never so many converted to the faith in the same place afterwards ( i mean , upon a second publication of the gospel in this place ) acts. . . compared with acts. . , & . , & . , and . . with vers. . by these two considerations ( i say ) it fully appears that water-baptism was never intended by god , but either only or chiefly , for an introductory or planting ordinance i. e. to attend the gospel for a time at its first coming unto , and reception by a people , citty , or nation , until it should get some considerable rooting , and interest amongst them , not for a staple or standing ordinance in one and the same place ( whereof good reason might be given , but that we are now upon a pin of brevity . ) secondly , that wheresoever , either the work and office of pastors and teachers , or their qualifications are described , or the intentions of god in , and about the erections of them in the church declared , there is not the least mention made either of any charge given them to baptize , nor of any qualifications requisite in those , who should baptize , nor of any intent of god , or of christ , that they should baptize . see and compare tim. . , , , &c. tim. . , . tit. . , . ephes. . , , , . thirdly , when the apostle paul directeth timothy to commit unto faithful men , the things which he had heard of him among many witnesses , the end why he thus directeth him , is signified in these words , who be able to teach others also ( tim. . . ) plainly intimating , that what is deriveable from the apostles unto standing pastors and teachers , respects cheifly , if not only , their abilities to teach , or preach the gospel . seventhly , concerning these words , and lo i am with you to the end of the world ; neither do these necessarily prove , that a ministeriall or actually baptizing should continue to the end of the world , at least not in all parts or places in the world , where the ministery of the gospel should be continued . for . jerom conceiveth that the apostles themselves are here said to live , and so to teach and baptize , to the end of the world , viz. in and by , their writings and other labours in the ministry : and that the presence of christ with them to the end of the world here promised , importeth , his directing , strengthening , and incouraging presence , whilest they continued in the body ; and his assisting presence with them in their writings and other labours faithfully performed in the work of the gospel , whereby these should prosper and bring forth fruit to the end of the world . this is no hard or far fetcht interpretation . a yet . be it granted , that christ here promiseth his presence , not unto the apostles alone , but to all their successors in teaching and baptizing , ( though a substantial proof of this requires more , i fear , then all the abilities of our brethren of the dip are able to perform ) yet neither will it follow from hence , that they who should succeed them in both , should baptize upon any other terms then the apostles themselves did , yea or are recorded in the scriptures to have done . now ( as we lately observ'd ) it is no where reported of them , or any of them , that they ever baptized in any place , but onely at , and upon , their first bringing of the name of christ , and the gospel thereunto , in case it found any competent entertainment and settlement there . but , eightly , ( and lastly ) grant we all that can either reasonably or unreasonably be demanded from the words in hand , on the behalf of those , who were , and are , to succeed the apostles in the work of the gospel , viz. ministers and teachers , and that christ promiseth his presence with them , as well in baptizing , as in teaching ; yet what presence of his is here promised to private christians , in their administrations of baptisme ? surely when they baptize , christ is not with them in the work ; how much less when persons of this character shall put forth their hand to touch the ark of baptism , who are not so much as baptized themselves ? and yet a baptism administred upon such polluted terms as these , is the mother and foundress of all those baptizmall administrations , for which our brethren so importunately magnifie themselves against us . to plead , that a person unbaptized , may administer baptism in a case of necessity , is a sufficient plea indeed thus understood ; viz. . when god himself adjudgeth and determines the case of necessity ; and . authorizeth from heaven any person , one or more , for the work , as he did john baptist . otherwise vzzah had as good , or better reason to judge that a case of necessity , in which he put forth his hand to stay the ark , then our first unhallowed and undipt dipper in this nation , had to call that a case of necessity , wherein , to the sad disturbance of the affairs of the gospel , yea and of the civil peace also , he set up the dipping trade . we do not intend that any thing hitherto argued in the consideration in hand , should be taken as meant for a positive or demonstrative proof , that the ordinance of baptism is now extinct , or not administrable without sin in the world ; but rather as a demonstration partly of the many labyrinths and difficulties , which they ought to overcom and clear , who are so confidently positive and assertive of the contrary ; partly of the most unreasonable and importune practise of those , who pronounce all men unworthy of christian communion , who are not as positive and assertive in matters of so doubtful disputation , as themselves . consideration xix . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. variances , emulations , animosities , contentions , divisions [ or seditions ] sects * , are by the holy ghost himself adjudged works of a the flesh , and such which are manifest ; yea and are ranged in the middle between , adultery , fornication , uncleanness , wantonness , idolatry , witchcraft , hatred , on the one hand , and , envyings murthers , drunkenness , revellings , and such like , on the other hand . concerning all which , joyntly and severally the apostle denounceth this heavy sentence : of which i tell you before , as i have also told you in times past , that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of god . gal. , , . . [ meaning , without repentance ] now how can men and women in any other way , or upon any other account , more manifestly , or more directly incur the guilt of the said sins of variances , emulations , animosities , seditions , sects , ( at least of some , if not of the most of them , and consequently the dreadfull doom of being excluded from the kingdom of god ) then by labouring in the very fire to trouble , disturb , rend , tear , dismember , break into sects and factions , such churches or bodies of saints , who until now were walking holily , and humbly with their god in unity , love , and peace , edyfiing one another in their most holy faith , with all good conscience observing all ordinances of god made known unto them for such , and ready and willing further to abserve all other , that should in like manner be made known unto them ? or can any pretence or plea whatsoever render the children of such high misdemeanors excusable before the judgment seat of christ ? i draw out my whole heart and soul in requests unto my god , that he will graciously awaken the consciences of such persons , who whilst they pull down , what christ hath built up , and scatter , what he hath gathered together , think they do him service . certainly never were the sins of variance , emulation , wrath , strife , church-seaition , schism , commited in the world by men , nor can it be imagined how they should be commited , if they who quarrel , trouble , rend and tear off themselves , labour in the very fire to rend and tear off others , from christian churches and congregations , only for dissenting from them in their private conceits about the ceremony of baptism , be not guilty of them . the contentions , rents and schisms in the catholique church , so deeply complained of , bewailed , and opposed by the fathers of old , were , according to a true estimate , but as shadows of these sins , and of light demerit , in comparison . consideration xx . when some of the brethren of the church at ierusalem were unsatisfied about that which peter did , in going to the gentiles at cornelius his house in cesarea , and having communion with them , peter , in order to their satisfaction , and his own justification in holding communion with them , doth not insist upon , nor so much as mention , or hint , their being baptized , but only the gift of the holy ghost given unto them by god in testimony of their faith . for as much then ( saith he ) as god gave them the like gift as he did unto us , who beleeved on the lord jesus christ , who , or what , was i that i could withstand god ? acts . . where ( by the way ) it is observable , that peter judged that a withstanding of god which our brethren call a serving , or an obeying of god ; i mean , a refusing of communion with those , concerning whose faith in jesus christ he had received satisfaction . upon the said account given by peter , it follows ( vers. . ) when they heard these things , they held their peace and glorified god , saying , then hath god also to the gentiles granted repentance unto life . from whence it is evident , that neither did peter himself , nor yet the brethren of this church at ierusalem , look upon baptism , as essential to christian communion , or as absolutely necessary to be found in those , with whom this communion may lawfully be held . for if so , why did not peter rather insist upon their baptism , then the testimony of their beleeving , for his vindication in holding communion with them ? yea and why did not those who contended with him about his said act of communion , make some such objection as this against his plea ( instead of being satisfied with it ) why dost thou tell us of the falling of the holy ghost upon these gentiles , or of their beleeving ? what is this to justifie thee in going in unto them ? tell us were they baptized , or no ? certainly both peters silence of baptism in his plea , and their silence in not inquiring after it for their satisfaction , divisim and conjunctim prove , that baptism in these days was looked upon as no foundation essentially requisite to build church communion upon . for that that communion with the gentiles , about which peter was now questioned at ierusalem , was constructively at least such a communion , is evident ; . because peter for his justification therein , pleads the falling of the holy ghost upon them as a testimony from god of their beleeving in christ , which is no proper or necessary plea for the justification of the lawfulness of any other communion . . that communion which consisted in any kind of eating with men , was by the jews , who were the men that now contended with peter about his communion with the gentiles , interpreted as an acknowledging and owning of them in relation unto god , and as persons in covenant with him . in which respect they judged it unlawful for a jew to sit at table , and eat meat with an unproselyted gentile , as appears from luk. . . and sundry other places . yea our saviour himself looked upon a regular forbearance of communion in this case , as a matter of religion , and of like nature with the offering of sacrifice , mat. . . compared with ver. . . to pretend that that communion , which peter had with these gentiles , was after , not before , their baptizing , is little to the purpose . for that their baptizing was meerly accidental and irrelative to his communion with them , appears clearly . because he builds his justification in it upon quite another foundation ( as we have heard ) viz. the gift of the holy ghost unto them in testimony of their beleeving ( which notwithstanding our brethren judg insufficient to justifie them in a like communion , unless it be eeked out with a baptizing . ) . because , they who demanded , and expected ( if were to be had ) a plenary satisfaction of that act of peter in communicating with them , were fully satisfied with the account mentioned , making no question for conscience sake about their baptizing . in like manner this very church at ierusalem , a while before , had admitted paul into their communion , only upon barnabas his declaring unto them that he had seen the lord in the way , and that he had spoken to him , and how he had preached boldly at damascus in the name of jesus , ( acts. . . ) without having heard the least inkling of his baptizing . yea it may be a question whether barnabas himself knew that he had been baptized : but however if he did know it , it is scarce a question , but that being now to prepare him a way into communion with this church , he would have represented his baptism , if he had judged the knowledg hereof necessary for this church , before they could lawfully receive him into their communion . yea a little before this , ananias at damascus had given him the right hand of christian fellowship in calling him , brother , before he was baptized . therefore our brethrens conceit of such an absolute necessity of baptism in order to church-fellowship , as they dream of , is but an apocryphal dream , without footing or foundation in the scriptures . how much more is the emphasis of this their conceit apocryphal , which beareth , not that baptism simply , but baptism according to their model of circumstances in every circumstantial punctillo administred , is of this soveraign and sacred necessity to qualifie and capacitate for church-communion ? do they affect to be either more wise or more holy then god ? consideration xxi . when christ ascended up on high , it is said that he led captivity captive , and gave gifts unto men ; some , apostles ; and some , prophets : and some evangelists : and some pastors , and teachers , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministery , and for the edifying of the body of christ , &c. ephes. . , , . from hence it appeareth by as cleer a light as any the sun shineth at noon day ▪ that christs gift of pastors , and teachers , was intended by him , not with limitation to saints baptized , or for the perfecting of them , but to saints simply and in general , whether baptized , or unbaptized , or ( which is the same ) to all saints without exception of any , in as much as the body of christ consists of all these , according to that thes. . . when he shall come to be glorified in his saints , and to be admired in all them that beleeve . now if pastors and teachers were given by christ that all saints , one or other , baptized or unbaptized , should be perfected by them , and the whole body of christ edifyed , then certainly they have all right to church-fellowship , in as much as pastors and teachers have their callings only by , and residence in churches . neither are they in any capacity , or probable way of perfecting them , but only when , and whilst , they are incorporated with them in their churches ( respectively . ) if men will not allow the priviledg of church-membership unto the saints deemed by them unbaptized , do they not herein rise up against the councel and gracious intendments of jesus christ towards them for their perfecting ? fighting against christ is a sin most dreadsully terrible , whe●e forgiveness cannot be pleaded in prayer for the siners upon this account , for they know not what they do . but i trust , ignorance is the mother of that sad devotion of our brethren , whereby they reject , yea oppose , the councel of christ concerning his saints . consideration xxii . besides the many reasons and arguments in our way ( many of them of great pregnancy and strength , as they seem in our eye ) which seperate between our judgments , and the necessity , yea or expediency , of a baptismal dipping ( which reasons may be published in due time ) we have some discou●agements and disswasiv●s upon us otherwise from that way . first , we understand by books and writings of such authority and credit , that we have no ground at all ●o question their truth , that that generat●on of men , whose judgments have gone wondering after dipping , and rebaptizing , have from the very first original and spring of them since the late reformation , been very troublesome and turbulent in all places where they have encreased to any numbers considerable ; and wiser men then i are not a little jealous over the peace of this nation , lest it should suffer , as other places formerly have done , from the tumultuous and domine●ring spirit of this sort of men so numerously prevailing as they do . there is a strong tide of report both from ireland and scotland , that as far as the interest and power , so far the insolency also and importune haughtiness of that generation we speak of , extendeth in both these nations , and that all persons , of what integrity or worth soever otherwise , who are not enlightened with their darkness about their dipping , are troden under foot like unsavory salt , and judged unmeet for any place of trust or power with them , being allowed only the preferements of drawing water , and hewing wood . one of this faction or party in england ( and he no small begger neither ) speaking of a person , who , though not of his judgment about the necessity of dipping , yet otherwise a man ( to my knowledg ) that had very well deserved of that way in several respects , as well publique , as private , yet speaking ( i say ) of this person , he said in the prefence of several persons of quality , that he deserved to be hanged ; an aphorism consonant to the later saying of a preacher of that way about the city , who in discourse with a person ( walking in communion with me ) about his judgment , and being ( as it seems ) worsted in the skirmish , at last recovered all the ground he had lost with this or the like , epiphonema ; that she might find her church at tyburn , and the gallows . these words i regard but as muck , notwithstanding it may concern others to look after the fire . but surely these men , when they come into their kingdom of authority and power , will execute judgment and justice without partiality . if so , then , he that deserveth to be hanged , must expect no better quarter then that of the halter : and if justice be administred without partiality , all that are in the same condemnation of anti-dipping with him , may bear him company in the same expection . let no man think that because i write these things , i do not walk charitably towards the persons of the men , of whom i speak , or that i bear in my spirit the least touch or tincture of any sinister affection against the worst of them . my principles ( i confess ) are too lofty and stiff to honour any mans unworthiness whatsoever , so far , as for the sake thereof to become his enemy . jesus christ with the hand of his grace hath taken my gall out of my bowels , and divided it between sin and satan . my conscience beareth me witness in the holy ghost , that as i have been cordially and christianly respectful and friendly unto these men , as far as i have had opportunity to serve them , so am i still ready to bow down and lick the dust at the feet even of the meanest of them , and of him amongst them , who ever he be , that is my greatest enemy , for their spiritual , yea or temporal accommodation . nor do i deny , or doubt , but that as amongst the pharisees , though a generation of vipers a , there were some who beleeved in christ b ; so among those , who have been baptized in their own water , some there are baptized into the spirit of christ , and upright in the sight of god . but the israelites being mingled amongst the heathen , in time learned their works c and the nightingale ( some say ) by conversing among sparrows , will forget her native notes , and learn to chirp . moreover , those things were not in hazael's heart , whilest he was yet a subject , which were afterwards ingendered there , when he came to be king over syria d . secondly , there is scarce any of those worthy instruments , luther , calvin , beza , bucer , peter martyr , musculus , bullinger , with others of like name and worth ( almost ) without number , whose piety , zeal and faithfulness in conjunction with their singular gifts , and abilities of learning , god was pleased to honour and use in the glorious work of the reformation , and in the deseace and propagation of the reformed religion unto this day , but in their writings , commentaries upon the scriptures , and others , very frequently and upon all occasion take up most sad complaints against this generation of men , as enemies to the progress of the gospel , and by their unchristian and unworthy carriages , causing the good word of god and the reformed religion to be evil spoken of , and reproached by the adversaries thereof in the world . thirdly , we understand by the records of former times , and our own experience time after time informeth us in part , that many of the best , and most considerate persons , who have been for some time engaged in that way , after full tryal of it , have forsaken it , as not finding god , or christ , in it . fourthly , we understand by frequent and very credible informations , & some of us are able to testifie as much upon our own knowledg and experience , that in some of thier religious assemblies and conventions there is no considerable presence of god with them ; that there is little taught amongst them with any evidence or demonstration of the spirit , with any authority and power ; that the scriptures are very defectively and lamely opened and applyed , ever and anon wrested to the countenancing and magnifying of their own private conceit and notion about baptism ; and that the greatest part of the time , during these meetings , is spent in fruitless altercations , and vain janglings . nor know we any ground to beleeve that it is much better in those other congregations of these men , which we know not , then it is in those which we know . fifthly , another thing of little less discouragement unto us then the former , is , that there have been , and still are extant , three or four several editions , or man-devised modes , of dipping , every latter pretending to correct the insufficiency , irregularity , or inconvenience , of the former . in regard whereof , some ( we understand ) instead of being once baptized , have been dipped three or four times over , thus committing that sin in baptism , which christ prohibits in prayer , the sin , i mean , of vain repetitions . so that in case our consciences did lead us to a baptismal dipping , yet should we be at a loss concerning the particular mode or form , which is agreeable to the mind of christ , there being so many competitors for this honour . and for the mode of the latest and newest invention , and which ( as we understand ) is of greatest esteem , it is , as far as we are able to conceive by the representation of it made unto some of us , so contrived , and so to be managed , that the baptist , who dippeth according to it , had need be a man of stout limbs , and of a very able and active body : otherwise the person to be baptized , especially if in any degree corpulent or unwieldy , runs a great hazard of meeting with christs latter baptism * instead of his former . and if this manner of baptizing were in use in the apostles days , it is no great marvel that paul , being a man little and low of stature ( as history reports him , and himself overtures , cor , , , . ) cared so little and seldom to adventure upon the work . and yet should we hesitate in our consciences much more , where to find a competent person amongst them authorized by god to administer such a kind of baptism unto us . for we are not yet baptized into the belief of either of these doctrines ; either , . that a person unbaptized , may , without a special call or warrant from god , like unto that of john baptist , luke . ● . undertake the administration ; or , . that that was a case of necessity , wherein either nicholas stork ( with his three comrades ) in germany about the year , or whoever he was that first , himself being in his own judgment and conscience un-baptized , presumed to baptize others after that exotique mode in this nation . nor are we convinced or clear in our judgments , that any of those , who have been dipped amongst us , have been rightly baptized , if it be supposed that true baptism consists in a total immersion , or submersion , by him that baptizeth ; because the baptized themselves are wont to submerge the greater part of their bodies , before the baptist comes at them ; and so are rather se-baptized , then baptized according to what the scripture seems to speak concerning baptism . besides , we do not read in the scriptures of any baptismal boots , or baptismal breeches , or of shifting garments to avoyd the danger of being baptized , or of encircling women with women after their coming from the water to salve their modesty , with some other devices now , or of late in frequent use amongst our new baptists in the way of their practise . all these things narrowly considered , minister a ground of vehement suspition unto us , left the whole story of baptismal diping should prove apocryphal . sixthly , another thing much discouraging and disswading unto us from the way mentioned , is , that they who have passed over the bridg of anabaptism , can find ( as it seems ) no firm ground to stand on on the other side , but are ever and anon shifting their judgments and their practises , running out into strange and uncouth opinious , heaping up observation upon observation : yea their own churches and congregations , notwithstanding their high purification by baptism , are sometimes unclean to them ; in so much that they divide , and subdivide , yea and are ready to divide again their divisions . seventhly , whereas antichrist himself is not more antichristian , then in claiming and exercising such a dominion over the faith of his proselytes and disciples , by vertue whereof he commandeth them to depend only upon ministers and teachers of his own faith and wicked perswasion in matters of religion , severely prohibiting unto them the hearing of protestant preachers ; we understand that the same high-imposing spirit domineers more generally in the churches and congregations which have been dipt ; and that they also solemnly conjure all their proselytes and converts not to hear jesus christ himself speaking by any other mouth , then theirs ; thus bearing them in hand , as if a voyce from heaven like unto that , which was heard by the people at christs baptism concerning him , had come unto them also in reference to themselves and their teachers , in this or the like tenor of words : we are the only true churches and ministers of christ : hear vs . yea there was of late a very great schism made in one of these churches , and the greater part aposynagoguized by the lesser , because of the high misdemeanor of some of the members in hearing the words of eternal life from the mouths of such ministers , who follow not them in their way . such principles and practises as these we judg to be most notoriously and emphatically anti-christian , and such wherein ( as was said in a like case ) the very horns and hoofs of the beast may be felt and handled . yea we cannot but judg them to be of most pernicious consequence to the precious souls of men , as depriving them of the best means and opportunities which god most graciously affordeth unto them for their recovery out of all such snares , wherein at any time their foot may be taken . this is another grand discouragement unto us from that way . eighthly , we observe , that ( more generally ) when men or women have suffered themselves to be intangled with a conceit of that way ; especially when they have bowed down their judgments and consciences unto it , they are presently found in that sad condition and distemper , wherein the apostle perc●ived the galatians , upon their subjection to the yoke of circumcision , when he demanded of them , who hath bewitched you a ? for as these were so strangely besotted and dissensed with their notion of circumcision and legal observations , that the apostle himself feared b that he should not be able to deliver them , no not by the clearest arguments and demonstrations of the vanity and danger of their new notion , and practise : so are the reasons , judgments and understandings of the persons we speak of , so stupified , distraught and confounded with the admiration of their water-work , and their airy conceits about it , that all reason opposing it , is a barbarian unto them ; common sence is a mystery inaccessible to their understandings , the light of the noon-day offering to discover any nakedness in their way , is as dark as the darkness of mid-night it self : men of sound and serious intellectuals are as men that speak unto them in a strange tongue , if they speak any thing against their way . they know not valleys from hills , nor hills from valleys , rivers from trees , nor trees from rivers , halfs from wholes , nor wholes from halfs , precepts from promises , nor promises from precepts , ceremony from substance , nor substance from ceremony ; every distinction that attempts to shew them the error of their way , ipso facto becomes a chaos and confusion . on the other hand , for the maintenance and defence of their way , the shadows of mountains seem valiant and armed men ; stubble and rotten wood , are turned into weapons of steel and iron before them ; letter becomes spirit , face becomes heart , promise becomes precept , ceremony becomes substance , apostles become ordinary men and women , disputeables become demonstrations , and peradventures become all yeas and amens . in respect of these marvellous and sad distempers in their fancies and understandings , to reason with them about their way , or to endeavor their conviction , seldom turns to any better account then a beating of the ayr , or then diogenes his begging applications to the statues of men . but ninethly ( and lastly ) the first born of all discouragements unto us in this kind , is , that which our eyes dayly see , and our ears oft hear , and wherewith our hearts are continually made sad within us , viz. that the generality or far greater part of those , who turn aside into this way , do , some more suddenly , others by degrees , impair and decline in their graces , lose that sweetness , meekness , love , and christian humility of spirit , wherewith they were formerly adorned , as if they were baptized in marah a , or in the waters of the red sea . never did we know any that by being dipped added thereby so much as an hairs bredth to his spiritual stature , or that became in any degree either more meek , or more humble , or more patient , or more merciful , or more mortifyed , self-denying , or the like ; but very many have we known and heard of , who upon such an engagement have made shipwrack of much spiritual treasure , wherewith god had blessed them under their first baptism . many have we known , who went into the water , lambs , and came out of it wolves and tygers : many who went in , doves , and came out , serpents ; as if they had met with the spirit that rules in the ayr under the water , in stead of the sweet spirit of christ . yea we have known some , who soon after their dipping have perpetrated and done things so unworthy and unsutable to their former genius , which if any man had challenged them before their dipping , that they would do after , we have reason to judg they would have replied to the challenge , as hazael did to elisha in somewhat a like case ; but what is thy servant a dog that he should do this great thing ? king. . . so many sad spectacles and stories , wherewith our eyes and ears are fill'd from time to time , especially not being ballanced or counterpoysed with any thing desireable , or of moment , put us into some fears , lest as god , in his just , though secret judgment , gives sathan a permission to haunt some houses , and to misuse and terrifie those that shall lodg in them ; so he should , for causes best known to himself ( though somewhat might with good probability be conjectured in this kind ) have granted unto this enemy of mankind somewhat a like power , over the opinion and practise of rebaptizing , and to tempt those , who suffer themselves to be intangled with them , more dangerously and prevailingly , then those , who in simplicity of heart walk before him in the contrary way . we are not definitive in this ; but only crave leave ( without offence ) to make known our fears . and however , god having multiplied grace , mercy and peace unto us in that way of his worship , wherein at present we walk , we judge it no christian prudence to tempt him in another . but whether our brethren have any just cause to cast us out of their communion , for not forsaking a way of experienced peace and safety , to walk in a way of so much danger , as that they seek to conjure us into , we leave to their own consciences , and to all considering men , to judg and determine . consideration xxiii . the consideration that sealeth unto me the conclu●ency and force of all the former , against the practise of church-rending upon the p●etence of undipt members , is , the invalidity of any thing that hath been yet brought to light ( and i presume of all that ever will , or can be ) in justification of it . . it is not true , ( is hath been sufficiently proved ) that circumcision was constitutive of the jewish church , or gave being of membership to all the leg●●imate members of it . or if this could be made good , yet would it not follow from hence , that therefore baptism must needs constitute the christian church . for what though it be supposed that baptism succeedeth in the place of circumcision ( a supposition , which though true and demonstrable enough , yet neither lives , nor dyes , to me ) yet it followeth not , that it should succeed it in all its circumstantial ends and relations . solomon succeeded david in his kingdom , yet he did not succeed him in his wives or concubines , or any his relations of affinity . . nor do the contents of act. . . prove , so much as in f●ce , or appearance , that baptism is of the essence of a church-member . for , . those who are said to have been baptized ( in the former part of the verse ) are not said ( in the latter ) to have been added to the church , but simply , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , they were added , or added to . if the question be , to what , or to whom they were added , if not to the church ; the holy ghost himself may inform you , expressing himself more plainly in a like case , act. . . and much people was added to the lord . and , . it is said , act. , . and the lord added unto the church , who ? such as were baptized ? no : but , such as should be saved , or , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. those who are , or were , saved , or delivered , viz. from the general impiety of the jewish nation , which was , not by being baptized , but by beleeving . . ( and lastly for this ) in case their baptizing having been mentioned in the former part of the verse , it should been said ( in the latter ) that they were added unto the church , yet {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} would not have proved {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; the recording of their addition to the church after their being baptized , will not prove this addition to have been made by vertue , or by means of their baptizing . in the former part of the verse , ioh. . . christ telleth the jews that their fathers did eat manna in the wilderness : he subjoyneth in the latter , and are dead . will any man reason from hence ; because this eating manna is reported in the former part of the verse , and their death , or being dead , in the latter ; therefore their death was caused by their eating of manna . . nor doth that of the apostle , cor. . . make any whit more ( if not rather less ) for church-constitution by baptism , then the former . for , . when the apostle saith , by one spirit we are all baptized into one body , it is not necessary we should understand him to speak of water-baptisw ; because , . here is another element expresly named , wherein this baptism might be administred , viz. the spirit , whereas there is no mention of water at all . . the phrase of being baptized with the spirit , or with the holy ghost ( as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , might have been translated here , as it is in all other places of like construction , as viz. mat. . . mar. . . luk. . . ioh. , . acts . , acts , . ) is most usual and frequent in the scriptures ( as the several texts now cited sufficiently declare ; ) whereas , to be with , or through , the spirit , baptized with water , is an uncouth and hard expression , no where found in the scriptures , nor carrying any regular sence in it . . if the unity or oneness of the body here spoken of , did , or doth depend upon their baptizing with water , and was caused by this , it had been impertinent for the apostle to mention the unity of the spirit , for we by one spirit are all , &c. he should rather have insisted upon the oneness , or same-ness of water baptism ( as he doth , ephes. . . ) . the unity or oneness of the body , of which the apostle speaks , is not so much , or so proper , an effect of water-baptism , no nor of the oneness of this baptism ( if it be any effect of either at all ) is of the spirit , by which this body is inspired , animated , acted , and moved , and the members of it knit together , and kept from dissolution . . whether all the members of the body were baptized with water , or no , is uncertain . the apostle expresly professeth that he baptized [ viz. with water ] very few of them ; and who else should baptize them all , no where appears ; whereas that they were all with , or by , the spirit baptized into the same body [ i. e. perswaded and over-ruled in their judgments and consciences to imbody themselves in a profession of the faith of jesus christ , and of the gospel ] is unquestionable . , the spirit is no where said to baptize men with water by or through the spirit . . though there be no express mention in the vers either of god , or of christ , who elsewhere ( the one , or the other ) are said to baptize with the spirit , those who are thus baptived , yet verse . . god is named , and this under the consideration of his unity , or sameness , as working all in all : but it is the same god that worketh all in all . and in the next verse it is said ; but the manifestation of the spirit is given unto every man , &c. [ meaning , by god , mentioned in the verse preceding . ] besides , there is nothing more familiat in the scriptures , then to express such actions , which are proper unto god , or christ , indefinitely , and without the mention of either . all power is given unto me [ saith christ , meaning by god his father ] in heaven and in earth , matth. . . instances of this construction , see matth. . . and . . philip . . . ( besides many others . ) yea actions appropriate , whether to angels , or men , are sometimes thus expressed . . the resemblance which the apostle borrowed ( in the verse next preceding that in hand ) from the natural body , sheweth that the unity or oneness of that church body of which he here speaketh , is not such an oneness which accrueth unto it by water-baptism , or any external rite or ceremony , but by the oneness and sameness of that spirit , by which it is ( as it were ) inform'd inwardly , and supported in life , and spiritual being . for as the body ( saith he ) is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one body , being many , are one body : so is christ ; intimating , that as the natural body , notwithstanding the plurality and diversity of its members , yet is , is made , or becometh , one intire body , not by any external or accidental thing befalling , or done unto , every of these members respectively , but by that spirit of life which diffuseth it self into all and every of these members proportionably , and so by means of the oneness or sameness of it , causeth a joynt coalition and natural consent in all these members to constitute and make one and the same entire body ; so is the mystical or spiritual body of christ made , and doth become , one and the same body in its kind , notwithstanding the great number and difference of the persons , who are the members of it , by means of that spirit , and his unity and sameness , which communicates himself inwardly unto them all , raising and begetting in them an holy consent to love and serve , and accommodate one another , much after the same manner , as the natural members in that other body do . . nor is it any ways probable , that in that clause , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , translated , and have been made to drink into one spirit , the apostle speaketh of the sacramental drinking in the supper ; . because drinking , or the sup , in this sacrament , is never found mentioned apart , or without mention of the bread in the same contexture of scripture with it . . to say that they , who have before this their drinking , received the same spirit , are made to drink [ at the lords table ] for , into , or unto , the same spirit , is very improper , and not without very much ado , so much as truth . . neither are beleevers anywhere said , to be made to drink , or to have drink given them , at the lords table , in order to their obtaining the same spirit , . learned expositors give notice of several different readings of this clause , found in manuscripts , and other copies . in a manuscript ( saith grotius upon the place ) this clause is thus read : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. and we all are one body . oecumenius ( it seems ) did read it thus : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. and we all drank , or were caused to drink , one potion , or one drinking , for , or unto , one spirit . some of the fathers read the clause in their language , et omnes unum spiritum potavimus , i. e. and we all have drank one spirit ; with which the syriac also accordeth . . the meaning of the clause ( if the reading we have be judged authentique ) construed with the former , seems to be this : we have by the same spirit , not only , or simply , been baptized into one and the same body , [ i. e. received such a proportion , or measure of the spirit given us , which is sufficient to make us one body , ] but we have also been made to drink unto one spirit , [ i. e. have received of this spirit of god so liberally , so plentifully , that we may very well become one spirit hereby amongst our selves , and walk together without either divisions in judgmēts , or distances in our affections . ] this construction of the preposition , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , might be exemplified from the scriptures : and however , there is no hardness or unpleasantness in it . and this exposition of the clause , receives countenance from all those passages in both epistles , wherein the apostle signifies the more then ordinary pourings out of the spirit in variety of gifts and graces upon these corinthians . but , . ( and lastly ) suppose it should be granted , . that the apostle in this verse speaks of water-baptism , . that his meaning is , that by this baptism , they had been all baptized into one body ; yet , . it doth not follow , that this must needs be understood constitutively , but declaratively only ; and that all implyed hereby should be , that by their baptism they did declare , or signo tenus pretend , unto the world , that they were one body , not that they were constituted , or really and actually made one body , by their baptism . . both the said particulars admitted , yea and this also , that they were ( in a sence ) by water-baptism baptized [ constitutively ] into one body , yet will it not follow from all these put together , either , . but that they might have been , yea and now were , the same body , which they were , by another constitution , and constitutor ( one , or more ) besides that of water-baptism ; or , . that no other kind of water-baptism , but only that by dipping , would have been every whit as effectual , as that by diping , to constitute or make them one body . as to the former ; men may be truly said to be justified [ i. e. constituted or made righteous ] by faith ; and yet as truly be said also to be justified by christ , yea and by god himself , and this with the self same justification . yea children without faith are justified with the same justification by god and christ , wherewith men beleevers are justified through faith . in like manner a company of beleevers , may be said to be constituted a church by baptism , and yet be said to be constituted and made this very church by the spirit of christ , or by faith also ; yea though baptism be wanting , yet may these persons be a church of a like , as sound , as worthy a constitution by means of the other two , the spirit of christ , and faith . to the latter ; suppose baptizing by sprinkling , or pouring water on the face , or head , were only the ordinance of men , and not of christ ; yet by common agreement and consent about the signification and purport of this ordinance , a general submission unto it by men , might as well and as much , constitute them one and the same body , as baptizing by dipping would do . it is true , upon such a supposition as this , the unity of the body , so far as the ceremony of sprinkling hath to do in it , is not raised , or effected , according to the mind or precept of christ ; but yet those other constitutors of the same unity ( i mean , the spirit of god , and faith ) are not defeated in their operations or effects hereby . so that the body , or church , we speak of , is a true body or church of christ , although the external contributor towards the unity of it , be not such as it ought to be . but in this latter part of our answer , we put our selves to more trouble then we need , by arguing against such thing● , which neither can be proved , nor are ( indeed ) in themselves probable . however our brethren may please to take notice here from how ready and desirous we are to give them satisfaction in the largest measure they can desire it . . ( and lastly ) whereas an unlawfulness of communicating with churches or persons unbaptized ( as some call unbaptized ) is argued from hence ; that the gospel no where records , or approves of , any such communicating by saints baptized , in the apostles days ; we answer , . that it is not recorded that the spring , or water , wherein the eunuch was baptized , was so deep as to reach , or come up to his ankles , when he went ( as is supposed ) into it : yet our brethren build very high , and with confidence ( more then enough ) upon a far greater depth then so in it . nor is it recorded that any of the seven churches of asia , or the greater part of the members of any of them , were baptized : yet our brethren would think it unreasonable in us to deny it . but by what law should our brethren judg it unreasonable in us to deny , upon the account of a non-being recorded , what they suppose to be true ; when as they judg it very commendable in themselves to deny that only upon the same account of not being recorded , which we judg to be true ? but if we deny them the principle , or priviledg of unreasonableness , their fabrick falls to the ground . . where the scripture , not only allows , but enjoyneth , the beleeving yoke-fellow in marriage , cohabitation with the unbeleeving , there it doth ex super abundanti both approve and require church-cohabitation and communion of the baptized with the un-baptized ; at least where both parties are really sanctified by faith in christ jesus , and the baptized have most solemnly , and in the presence of god , and before many witnesses of his saints , engaged themselves by promise unto the other , to walk with them in all the ordinances of god and of christ , as they should be at any time revealed and made known unto them . i shall not ( i suppose ) need to traverse the comparison . the argument a minore ad majus , from the less probability to the greater , lieth large above ground . if infidelity , which is ten times worse then the want of an external ceremony , yet hath no power to absolve the beleeving wife for her matrimonial engagement to her husband ; much less hath a defect of , or in , an outward ceremony , in one or more members of a christian society , any commission or authority from god to discharge those , who call themselves baptized , from those sacred promises or engagements , wherein they have openly and avowingly affianced themselves to this society . . where the lord christ saith , what god hath joyned together , let no man put asunder , ( mat. . . ) he doth more then justifie that communion , which is the subject matter of our present debate . for if it was god , that joyned together the persons who now look upon themselves , as baptized , with those who are challenged for unbaptized , in that holy communion wherein they sometimes walked together , then it is a plain case , that no man ( indeed no creature ) whatsoever hath any authority or right of power , whatsoever his pretence may be , to dissolve the band of this communion between them , except it be given unto him by god . and then this gift or grant from god must be made to appear to men , before they ought to own or countenance any man in his act of parting , or putting asunder what god hath joyned together . and the truth is , that that man , or creature , that shall claim a right of power to abrogate or disanul any act of god , otherwise then from god himself , maketh himself not only equal , but superior in power , unto god . so that all the question is , whether god may lawfully and with truth be entituled to those transactions , by which the respective members of a society or fellowship of saints , do at any time imbody themselves , or become a church or spiritual corporation . for if it be either granted , or proved , that god is the author of these councels or motions in the hearts of his saints , as well undipt , as dipped , by which they incorporate or imbody themselves , it will roundly follow , that men have no power , but that which is usurped , and sinfully used , to dissolve , either in whole , or in part , these imbodied societies , or incorporations . for if god , upon this supposition , should authorize or license men to make any such dissolution , he should be divided against , and inconsistent with , himself ; giving men leave , what he builds up in one day , to pull down the next . for certain it is , that they who separate and rend themselves off from any society of saints after one , two , or three years walking with them , had the same right or power of separating themselves the very next day or hour after their first uniting , unless it be supposed that this society in the mean time hath enormously corrupted it self , or apostatized from that faith , which it professed when the said persons first joyned themselves unto it . now whether god be the author of those counsels and motions in the hearts of his saints , whether dipt , or undipt , by the ducture whereof they are led to imbody themselves ( as hath been said , ) can be no mans question , who doth but know and consider the most gracious and blessed tendencies , yea and real effects of such incorporations , when the persons incorporated do but in any considerable degree walk according to their light , and perform the terms of their engagements , dipping , or not dipping , making no difference in this kind . notwithstanding if a thing so clear and evident as this should be any mans doubt , demonstrations and proofs are near at hand ; but till they be called for , the reader ( haply ) for his ease , had rather hear of them , then have them . but , . ( and lastly ) to justifie the practise of persons dipped in separating and tearing off themselves from the societies of saints undipt , it is not ( so much as in colour or shew ) sufficient to plead , that they find no example in the scripture of any such communion ; but it is absolutely necessary hereunto , that they find and shew some example ( and this attested by the spirit of god ) of such a separation , as they practise . they find no example in scripture of any beleever dipped after they had been dedicated in their infancy unto the service of christ by sprinkling , or washing ; yet they judg themselves bound to the practise . why may they not as well judg themselves bound to remain in communion with societies undipt , although they find no example in scripture of a like practise ? if they practise in one case without example , why do they not the like in the other ? as for matter of precept , whereon to build either the one practise , or the other ; certainly there is as much ( or rather much more ) for holding communion with saints , though undipt , as for dipping , after sprinkling , or washing . and as sprinkling , or washing in infancy , is no where expresly or literâ tenùs made an exception against after dipping ; so neither is this dipping made any exception or bar against holding communion with saints or beleevers , though undipt . yea whereas that communion ▪ we speak of is an act or service of love and of mercy , and consequently one of the great things of the law , dipping being only a ceremony , and so answering the tything of mint , anise , and cummin , certainly if men think themselves bound in conscience not to leave the latter undone , they are much bound to observe and do the former . therefore they who dip after sprinkling , in this very practise condemn themselves for breaking communion after dipping . post-script , to the reader . good reader , upon occasion of the foregoing considerations , and the argument traversed in them , i judged it not amiss to subjoyn in the cloze of them one consideration more ▪ which though it doth not so particularly relate unto the argument of the former , yet may it through the blessing of god comfort , strengthen , and relieve thee against such impressions of sadness , wherewith , as well that troublesom and disorderly behavior of men there counter-argued , as many other parts of no better , if not of a much worse import , like to be shortly acted upon the stage of the world yet standing , are like to fill thy soul . the consideration i mean , is , that the great troubler of the world , the devil , knowing that he hath now but a very short time , is like to arm himself with greater wrath then ever , against the poor generation of the children of men , the objects of his deadly fury and most inveterate indignation . they who have yet their turns of mortality to take , either in whole , or in part , are like to learn and know more within the space of one year what a devil meaneth , then those who have lived before them have done in seven . satan hath but dallied with the world in mischief and blood hitherto ( in comparison . ) the scope of time before him wherein to act , was a kind of temptation upon him to remissness in his work . now finding and feeling himself close begirt , and pen'd up in straits of time for action , it cannot be expected but that he should dayly break out upon the world like thunder and lightening out of the blackest cloud . acerrima virtus est , quam ultima necessitas extundit . he never rent and tare the poor child ( luk. . ) so cruelly , as when he knew that the date of his possession was now expired . and however his game by , as well the present troubles , perplexities , and confusions of the world , as the eternal ruine and perdition of the precious souls of men , ( for his motto may be , tam marte , quàm mercurio , ) yet when he can pursue and follow both in one and the same chase , he is in the highest extasie of his delight . his great and deeply beloved design is to dissolve his works in the world , who he knoweth came into the world to dissolve his . and as he knoweth that christ's method for the destruction of his kingdom was by kindling a fire of division in the midst of it , by means whereof , where five should be in an house , three should be divided against two , and two against three , the father divided against the son , and the son against the father , the mother against the daughter , and the daughter against the mother a , &c. in like manner his method , by way of revenge , and , if it were possible , to destroy the kingdom of christ , is , by casting fire too , a fire of division , into that also , whereby the saints in their families likewise should be divided , the husband against the wife , and the wife against the husband ; the father against his sons , and the sons against their father ; the master against his servants , and the servants against their master , &c. and though it be true , that the devil hath in former ages cast sundry fires of separation and division into that great body or bulk of the professors of christ in the world ( commonly called , the catholique church ) causing hereby great troubles and confusions in this church , and possibly might separate and divide some true saints and servants of god , from others , partakers of like precious faith with them , yet did he never ( at least since the apostles days ) attempt the kingdom of christ so compact in it self , and so well fortified for its own defence and preservation , as of late it was amongst us in the congregational churches of the nation , by any fire of division whatsoever like unto that , which is best known in the world by the name of , anabaptism . by other fires , for the most part he either separated the vile from the precious , or the vse amongst themselves , and from the vile ; in both which cases the spiritual kingdom of christ was rather a gainer , then a loser . but by this fire of anabaptism ( at least as the greatest part of the engineers , who work with it , do employ it ) he separates only the precious from the precious , saints from saints , beleevers from beleevers ; and makes the one to become as publicans and heathens unto the other . by means whereof many spiritual temples and habitations of the living god , fair and large , and wherein his soul delighted to dwell , are in imminent danger of being made waste and desolate . alass ! the fires of swenkfieldianism , famdism , antinomianism , lutheranism , calvinism , super-ordinancism , with the sparks of quaking and ranting , were , and are , but as ignes lambentes , fires running up and down and licking only the outside of the house , without kindling upon , or burning any the principals , or main timber ; whereas the fire of anabaptism , is like the fire kindled by god himself heretofore in zion ; the fierceness whereof was so sore , that ( as ieremiah lamenteth the case ) it devoured the foundations thereof , lam. . . and if we diligently consider the nature of that design , the accomplishing whereof sathan projecteth by this fire , we cannot reasonably conceive but that it should be very subtil and penetrating ( in its kind ) i mean very apt and proper to insinuate and convey it self into the judgments and consciences of good men , either less knowing , or less considerate ; and yet withall so propertied also , that persons who are diligent in the use of the touchstone , and of through judgments , may not feel the least warmth or heat of truth in it . that fire which is to separate between silver and silver , between gold and gold , had need have somewhat more then ordinary fire , in it . and when sathans device and work is to sever and divide saints from saints , true beleevers from true beleevers , imbodied as close and fast together as the scales of leviathan , the fire whereof he must make use in the operation , must be some notion , opinion , or apprehension , one or more , so calculated and conditioned , that in face it may look like a truth of god , and yet in heart be far otherwise . for by means of such a composition or constitution as this , it is apt to take good people of lighter and weaker judgments , and less considerate , and to leave those of stronger , and more inquiring : and thus the operation is finished , and the separation wrought . for there is scarce any church or congregation of beleevers , but is compounded of these two sorts of persons ; some who are more credulous , and more easie to be taken with appearances ; others , who are more jealous of faces , and who must see , a sound bottom , before they approve , or commend tops . now the doctrine or opinion ( with the concurrent practise ) imbraced by those , who are best known from others by the name of anabaptists ( i intend no reflection in the term , nor any avouchment of the propriety of it , in reference to those meant by it , but meerly designation ) is of that calculation we speak of : it hath a face or shew , both of truth , and godliness ; but it hath an heart of error , and prophaneness . by means of the former it captivateth one sort of men : by means of the latter , it alienateth the judgments and affections of others from it . i know not ( good reader ) whether thou hast taken any notice either of the fourty queries about church-communion and baptism ( some while since published ) or of the answer ( so called ) to them , published more lately . i judg it not worth , either mine , or any other mans pains , to make an anti-answer , or just reply . heaving at a feather is too childish a posture for a man . something may be said in commendation of a fair face , although the heart relating to it be never so foul and bad . my antiquerist is a man of parts and worth , in his sphere : but what the word of god , and evidence of truth make crooked , what parts or abilities of man are able to make streight ? i shall , upon occasion of the subject discoursed in the precedure of these papers , here only say this ( giving in withal a small first-fruits of an account for such my belief ) that i verily beleeve that there is nothing answered to any one of the said fourty queries , but what is defective , either in point of pertinency , or of truth , or at least of proof . the grounds of my faith in this kind , are partly the nature and import of the questions ; partly the tenor and substance of such of the answers , which i have had time to weigh and consider . for the former ; if i should propose such a question , the tenor whereof should import , that i verily beleeve the sun to be up at noon day , or , that the body ought not to be sacrificed upon the service of the shadow , or the rayment belonging to it , or the like ; could i expect , or think , that he who should undertake in answer to such my questions , to overthrow my belief imported in either , could alledg or insist upon any thing , but which of necessity must be , either impertinent , or untrue ( if not both ) or if neither , yet uncertain ; which in close disputations , especially if the degree of uncertainty be any thing considerable , amounts to little more , then to that which is untrue . for the latter ; because i would not be thought to seek out my antigonist , where possibly he may be more obnoxious , or weak , i shall give a brief account of his weakness in the best of his strength ; for i presume that if he be stronger then himself anywhere , it is in the front of his battail , and in his formost answers . therefore let us ( in a word ) see whether the foundations both of his first and second answers , be not less either in pertinency ( as hath been said ) or in truth ( if not in both , ) or least in proof . . in his answer to the first query , he layeth for one ground hereof , that which is the matter of question between him , and his querist , viz. that constituting of churches without baptism is a corrupt practise ; . that infant-sprinkling is a corrupt practise also . now what an impertinency is it in arguing , to assert that without proof , which is denyed by the adverse party ( and that in the question it self under debate , ) and withall to build the process of the dispute upon it ? . he layeth this for another ground of his answer ; that there was no such practise , as either constituting of churches without baptism , or sprinkling of infants , on foot in the world , till after all the books of the holy scriptures were finished . this likewise he affirms without all proof , notwithstanding he well knows that the sence of his querist stands to the contrary . this is of the same house and lineage of impertinency with the former . . he builds another strein of his answer upon this ground ; that the querist hath disclaimed communion with the church of rome , and the parochial churches in england ; and this upon this ground , because there is no example in scripture for such church-constitution , as that of rome and england is . here are more untruths then one , un ess a very improper construction of the phrase , disclaim communion , contracts the number . for i never disclaimed communion with the church of rome , more then i have done with the church of mahomet : nor had i ever occasion to do the one , more then the other . but the grand untruth here is , that i should have disclaimed communion with these churches , because there is no example in scripture of such church-constitutions &c. my anti querist is very much mistaken in this : for i disclaim no action whatsoever upon this account , because there is no example of this action in the scripture ; as neither do i perform any action , simply because there is an example of such an action here . but the adequate ground of my disclaiming any action ( and so of communion with any church whatsoever ) is , that i find no sufficient ground in the scriptures for my doing it . but i may ( and do ) find sufficient grounds in the scripture for my doing of many things , of which i find here no examples . however , upon this mistaken ground of my disclaiming communion with these two churches , he goeth on his way merrily , and builds as securely , as he that mistakes the sand for a rock . . he advanceth supposing yet further , that i hold communion with churches built upon infant-baptism . surely here is a pair of mistakes : one , about his own ; another , about my practise . for , . himself disclaims communion with those societies of saints , which here he calls , churches , meerly upon this account , because they are no churches . . whereas he chargeth me with holding cammunion with churches built upon infant-baptism , the truth is , that i hold no communion with such churches ; nor do i know any church , one or other , built upon any baptism , whether infant-baptism , or beleever-baptism . the churches with which i hold communion , are bvilt upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief corner stone , ephes. . . . neither is it at all pertinent to the business before him , to inform his querist , or others , that there is example in abundance in scripture of churches of a better constitution , [ he means , then of churches built upon infant-baptism , such as he supposeth i hold communion with , ] and that this is , of saints baptized after they had beleeved . we do not beleeve that baptism , whensoever , or howsoever administred , is any part of , or ingredient into , a churches constitution , more then the gospel it self , or the preaching hereof , or the service of the lords table . a church may be of a very ill constitution , though all the members of it have been regularly baptized ; and on the contrary of a good and sound constitution , though there have been some defect or irregularity in their baptism . baptism is extrinsecal to church-constitution , as the washing of a mans face or hands is to the constitution or complexion of his natural body . . another mistaken ground , upon which he builds very high , is , that the querist , and others of his judgment , plead the precept os circumcising infants under the law , as virtually requiring the baptizing of infants under the gospel . i confess if we should plead thus , we should plead much after the rate of those , who plead the unlawfulness of church communion with the saints , because they jump not in conceit with them in every circumstance about baptizing . we are far from either saying or thinking , that the precept of circumcising infants under the law , virtually requires the baptizing of them under the gospel . we hold , that had there not been a precept given , in , or under the gospel for baptizing , the precept of circumcising infants under the law , could not have justified us in our baptizing them under the gospel . we do not go about to prove the lawfulness ( much less the necessity ) of baptizing , from the precept of circumcising : this is a grand mistake in the antiquerist about the sence of his adversaries : but we receiving a precept , from god under the gospel for baptizing , without any determination of , or limitation unto , any certain age of the persons , to be by vertue of this precept baptized , and finding the councel of god to have pitched upon infancy , as the most meet age for the reception of a former ordinance of like spiritual signification and import with baptism , judg our selves bound in conscience rather to be directed to the proper subject of baptism by the councel of god in a case of like nature , then to consult the wisdoms ( or wills rather ) of men in the business . this considered , . how , not impertinent only , but importune and unsavery , is that insultation , if it be not good reasoning from circumcision to baptism , let the pedobaptists bid adieu to their cause of infant baptism , which is built and bottomed thereupon . alas , good man ! the cause of pedo-baptism is not at all built or bottomed upon any reasoning from circumcision to baptism , but upon the good word of god it self . neither have we any reason , or need , to bid adieu to this cause , although ( to please our friend the antiquerist ) we should take our leaves of our reasoning from the subject of circumcision to the more appropriate subject of baptism . yea this our good freind himself being so well acquainted with us , cannot be ignorant , but that we have many other pillars hewn out of the rock of the scriptures , whereon we build our cause of pedo-baptism , besides what we argue from the subject of circumcision . yea himself hath of late been hewing and hacking at some of them ( whereof notice may be taken in due time ) but his attempts against them have rather proved them to be strong , then any ways weak . . how impertinently weak is that insulting demand also ( in the process of this answer ) and now which of the horns of this dolemma will the pedobaptists suffer themselves to be gored by ? here the anti-querist ( it seems ) turns querist himself . but if he hath not an happier stroke in anti-querism , then in querism , he had better harken unto the proverb , manum de tabulâ , and leave his paper as white as he found it . the pedobaptists need not fear goaring by either of the horns of his dilemma : they stand so staringly wide , that there is roomth enough and enough for seaven men to pass abrest between them . for first , the mans dilemma taketh it for granted , that uncircumcised persons were excluded [ surely he means , always , not sometimes , or in some cases only ; for this would sink the saying too far beneath his cause ) from acts of church communion , whilst circumcision was in force . will he say that women were circumcised ? or that they were excluded form acts of church-communion , because they were uncircumcised ? or that all those , who were not circumcised in the wilderness , were excluded from all acts of church communion for forty years together ? . the said dilemma very weakly supposeth , that the author of it , may from the exclusion of uncircumcised ones under the law from acts of church-communion then , as well argue to the exclusion of unbaptized , or unduly baptized ones under the gospel , from church-communion now , as we reason from the subject of circumcision , to the subject of baptism . i wonder upon what principle or ground in reason such a supposition or conceit as this standeth . for what the antiquerist offereth upon this account , is no better then gibbrich or non-sence unto me . for ( sayth he ) the same things have the same consequences ; and two things alike , belong to the like reason and judgment . he that either can understand these topiques , or fit them to his case , must plough with a stronger and nimbler heyfer , then mine . that which i suppose the man would have , is this ( but his demand is most unreasonable and importune ) that if baptism succeeds circumcision in one thing , it must succeed it in another ; yea in all things . how empty such a conceit as this is both of reason , and of truth , hath been shewed in the last of our foregoing considerations . and however some of us upon occasion sometimes say , that baptism succeeds circumcision ( which is a truth evident enough , and acknowledged such , in some respects , by one of the great apostles of the anti-querists faith in the matter of baptism , ) yet have we no need of such a saying to support our cause of infant baptism . for the analogy or proportion of reason , from whence we argue , that infants may be as well the subjects of baptism , as of circumcision , may equally stand , whether baptism be looked upon as successor unto circumcision , or no . but if our good freinds intellectuals be not too far spent with the strength of the inchantment upon him , but that he yet remains in some competent capacity to receive instruction , i shall here ( once for all ) give him an account , why , though it were to be granted ( which yet it is not , but only with limitation , as was lately shewed ) that want of circumcision did exclude from church-ship under the law , yet this at no hand proveth , that therefore a defect of , or in , baptism , should do the like under the gospel . . the church of god being in the infancy or nonage of it under the law , the state and condition of it was more servile , then now under the gospel . now i say that the heir as long as he is a child , differeth nothing from a servant , though he be lord of all ; but is under tutors and governors , until the time appointed of the father . even so we when we were children , were in bondage under the elements of the world . but whtn the fulness of time was come , god sent forth his son made of a woman , made under the law , to redeem them that were under the law , that we might receive the adoption of sons * . in respect of this different state of the church under the law , and under the gospel , the churh is not to be looked upon as under a like rigour of subjection to any carnal ordinance or ceremony whatsoever , as it was under the law . nor are the external ceremonies of the gospel pressed upon like terms of peremptoriness and severity , upon the saints , as those of the law were imposed upon the carnal church of the jews . if they were , the two so different states of the church mentioned , should be confounded . but somewhat to this purpose we speak in our considerations ; where we declared , that in the gospel , no man is threatened for not being baptized , baptism being here enjoyned or recommended unto men by way of indulgence , and for their spiritual benefit and accommodation , not with any intention on gods part to render the bare omission of it an article of condemnation against any man , much after the manner of the law of the free-wil offering under the law . and whereas it was said unto abraham concerning circumcision , he that is born in thy house , and he that is bought with thy mony must needs be circumcised , it is no where said unto any person in the new testament , ye must needs be baptized ; yea unto the eunuch requiring baptism , philip answered , if thou beleevest with thy whole heart , thou mayst , not , thou must [ be baptized . ] there is an eye of this evangelical liberty concerning external observations in the institution it self of the other ordinance also , as the apostle paul recordeth it , cor. . . . this do ye as oft as ye do it , in remembrance of me . for as often as ye eat this bread , and drink this cup , ye do shew the lords death till he come . here is no injunction of the quoties , but a plain intimation of a liberty touching this ; only the manner of the toties is strictly prescribed : which is the direct calculation , or manner of sanction of the institution concerning the free-wil offering under the law . this kind of offering was imposed upon no man , as of necessity : only the terms of the oblation of it , when offered , are strictly prescribed . see levit. . , , &c. and again , levit. . . . , &c. but , . concerning circumcision , there never was any question among the jews , nor indeed any place or occasion for a question , either whether it was commanded by god , or no , or whether the practise of it was to continue till the coming of the messiah , or no ; no nor yet concerning the due mode or manner of its administration . so that whosoever refused to submit to circumcision , during the reign of it , did ipso facto and without dispute , openly manifest , yea profess disobedience to god in an express command . whereas the anti-querist well knoweth , that amongst the saints and servants of god themselves , and persons as tender conscienced , of as rich an obediential frame of heart towards god , as himself , or the best of his late-born perswasion , there are many scruples , questions , and cases of conscience about baptism ; some being unsatisfied whether there be any command of god , or of christ , in the gospel , requiring subjection of any person in these days , unto such a thing ; others , ohether the mind and pleasure of god be , that the ordinary and standing administration of it should be made to infants , or persons of mature years ; others again , whether the administration of it may not with as good , or better acceptance with god , be made by sprinkling , or pouring water on the baptized , as by dowzing or dipping ( besides several others of like nature . ) and such questions and dissatisfactions amongst holy , humble , grave and sober christians , as these , undeniably shew and prove , that the mind and will of god t●uching these particulars , is very sparingly , obscurely , and with much scantness of discovery , delivered in the scriptures . the premises considered , the case must needs become plain , why , though it should be granted that circumcision was made by god a necessary condition of church-ship under the law , yet this no ways proveth , that he hath made baptism , especially in any particular mode of its administration , a like condition of church-membership under the gospel . if god should have intended baptism ( as some men count baptism ) for a necessary requisite , or ingredient into churchship under the gospel , he should have made a law for the inchurching of his saints , which would have excluded the far greatest ( yea and best ) part of them from all part and fellowship in that gracious accommodation ; and which would have brought in an heterogeneal generation of vain and loose persons , in their stead ; as now the groundless conceit of such a law doth amongst us . nor can any man tolerably imagin , had the precept of god concerning circumcision under the law , been like to have occasioned as many doubtful disputations amongst the best of the jewish nation , as he knew the signification of his mind concerning baptism in the gospel , would occasion and raise amongst the best of his saints , that he would ever have regulated church-fellowship amongst them by circumcision . yea , . ( and lastly ) the regulation of church-communion under the levitical law by circumcision ( upon the terms , and with the limitations formerly specified ) is so far from being so much as a probable argument , that church-communion should be intended by god to be regulated by baptism under the gospel , that it rather evinceth the quite contrary . for as the communion of the church under the law , whilst it [ the church ] was yet carnal , and servile , in the infancy or nonage of it , was regulated by a rule or law suitable to the state and condition of it , i. e. by a law of a carnal ordinance ; so is it reasonable to conceive , that the church under the gospel being spiritual ( pet. . . ) and of mature growth , the communion thereof should be regulated by a law or rule agreeable to the condition and state hereof , and which requireth , and consiseth in , somewhat that is more spiritual , and not by baptism , which is a carnal ceremony ( so acknowledged by the greatest masters themselves of the way called anabaptism ) as well as circumcision . thus they who have eyes to see , and hearts to understand , may clearly enough perceive , that however the subject of baptism under the gospel may be rationally calculated by the subject of circumcision under the law ; yet the regulation of church-communion by circumcision under the law , can be no ground of estimating church fellowship by baptism under the gospel . we have assigned reason upon reason of the difference . and thus having felt and handled the two insulting horns of the late-threatening dilemma ; we find them to be made of brown paper . but ( to proceed yet a little further with the answerer in his answer to the first query ) . another ground whereon he builds , is , that the scripture is every whit as express ; for baptism , to precede the enjoyment of church priviledges , as it is for a voluntary consenting to church order and government , to precede the same enjoyment . but how impertinently to his cause , and with how little proof , is this affirmed ? first , if by , church-priviledges , he means , all church-priviledges , how can the scripture be express for baptism to precede the enjoyment of them , when as it self is one of these priviledges ; and ( doubtless according to his sence ) one of the greatest of them ? is the scripture express for any thing to precede the enjoyment of it self ? if by , church-priviledges , he means , some of these priviledges , when he hath specified which he means , we shall consider further of his assertion . but , . the scripture may be express enough for baptism to precede the enjoyment he speaks of , [ i. e. that baptism did sometimes precede this enjoyment , and may precede it still , yea and haply that in some cases it ought to precede it , ] and yet be neither express , nor virtual or implicit , for the absolute or universal necessity of such a precedure , which is the point wherewith the query before him pincheth him . . ( and lastly ) the scripture may be as express for what he saith it is , as for a voluntary consenting to church order , &c. and yet be neither express , nor yet virtual or consequential , for it . for the truth is , that the scripture is not express for the said consenting : only some of us judg it meet to desire such a consent of those , whom we judg otherwise meet to admit into communion with us in church-priviledges , to prevent some grand inconveniences , which it is not pertinent here to specifie ; although the sence of others of us is otherwise in the case . and , . how impertinent to his cause is this reasoning : if one person may be admitted upon such terms , [ he means , to church-priviledges without baptism , ] then why not two ? if two , why not ten , and so an hundred , or a thousand ? and consequently such gospel order layd totally aside ? if an hundred , or a thousand , or ten thousands , should be admitted to church-priviledges upon a manifestation of their faith ( which may be otherways , and to far better satisfaction , done , then by a being baptized ) with an exclusion of all others , who are able to give no such account of a work of faith in them , would this be a total laying aside of gospel order ? good reader , consider and judg . . he affirms , that those precepts , exhortations , or doctrines by which men stand enjoyned to observe gospel order , do virtually prohibit men baptized communion with unbaptized in church-fellowship , as that which is contrary thereunto . but at what a distance do his proofs stand from his position , as if they were meer strangers to it . for , . his first proof is built upon a clear mistake of the word , teach , go and teach all nations , mat. . . ( and indeed upon a misunderstanding of the whole verse . ) for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to teach , doth not signifie to teach men so , as to make them willing to obey the gospel , [ which sence notwithstanding bears the whole burthen of his first proof of the said position : ] this sence of the word was ( i beleeve ) never heard of from any author that hath written in the greek tongue ; and however , cannot be the sence of it here ( as will appear presently : ) but the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , properly signifies to instruct or teach ; or ( which is the same ) to do that , which is apt and proper to make a disciple , one or more , whether any person be actually , or by way of event or success , made a disciple , or no . and that this was the proper and only sence of the word intended by the lord christ here , is evident ; because otherwise , . he must be conceived to give a commission or charge to men to do that , which was not in their power to do , as viz. actually to regenerate , or convert men to the faith , &c. . it would follow , that although the apostles should have taught and preached the gospel with never so much faithfulness , yet they had falsified the trust reposed in them by christ , and acted short of their commission , if they did not at all times when they preached , make those , to whom they preached , actual beleevers . this considered , how impertinent and insulse is that conceit , that an injunction to baptize is therefore put by a participle of the present tense , teach all nations , baptizing them &c. to imply , that they were presently to baptize men upon their being taught . if this were so , all persons whatsoever , to whom the gospel was at any time preached by the apostles , were , upon their bare hearing of it , and whether they beleeved , or blasphemed , to have been baptized by them . and if there be any sence at all in these words , as all examples of that nature in the acts of the apostles do declare , how loud an untruth is it . there is not so much as any one example throughout the acts of the apostles , of a person baptized barely or meerly upon his hearing of the gospel preached unto him . but how impertinently this piece of scripture is alledged , either to prove who , or what kind of person , is the proper and adequate subject of baptism ; or a necessitie that all beleevers to the worlds end , should be baptized , or otherwise be guilty of sin , hath been argued in the preceding considerations . . how little truth , or pertinency there is in his second proof of the aforesaid position , sufficiently appears by the examination of the first . for though the apostles did put the said commission of christ into execution according to his command , i. e. did both teach and baptize , yet it doth not follow from hence , either , . that they baptized all that they taught , ( the contrary hereunto is evident from the story , act. . , . and . . and other places ) therefore the teaching mentioned in their commission , was not the rule of their baptizing . nor , . doth it follow , that because upon their first preaching of the gospel in jerusalem , they baptized those who gladly received their word , and beleeved , therefore they baptized in like manner all those , or any of those , who were converted to the faith by their after-preaching in the same place . we read of no such thing as this in any place of the acts , or elsewhere ( as we formerly observed . ) nor did the tenor of their commission impose this upon them . for he that is simply and only commanded to teach , and to baptize , as he is not hereby commanded to teach continually , so neither is he commanded to baptize always when he teacheth . but whereas he demandeth ; what is more plain then that the commission of christ to them , was to teach and baptize first , and to admit into church-fellowship thereupon , as is visible in that prime example of theirs , acts . , . i answer , this is much more plain , viz. that they were not commissioned in that commission we speak of , to admit into church-fellowship , either upon terms of baptism , or any other , there being not so much as the least mention or hint here about admission into church-fellowship . nor is it said , acts . , . either that the apostles admitted any into church-fellowship ; or . that any were admitted into church-fellowship , much less that they were admitted into this fellowship , because they had been baptized ; but all that is here said ( as to the point now in hand ) is : then they that gladly received his word , were baptized , and the same day {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. there were added , or added to [ not , to them , as our antagonist emphaseth , or , to the church , but rather , to the lord , as it is , acts . ] about three thousand souls . neither is the addition here spoken of , ascribed to the apostles : it is not said , that they , or any of them , added so much as one soul . but if we will entitle him unto the addition here spoken of , to whom the holy ghost ascribeth it , vers. . we must say , that it was made by the lord ; and the lord added unto the church dayly such as should be saved . here , where there is express mention made of adding to the church , there is no mention made of baptism . . his third and last proof is as irrelative to his purpose , as both the former . for christians are not said ( rom. . ) to be planted together in [ it is not , into , as our anti-querist takes a most unworthy liberty , both here , and elsewhere more then once or twice , to mis-cite his scriptures ] the likeness of christs death , by reason , or means , of their water-baptism ; for then it would follow ( from the latter clause of the verse , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) that all who are thus baptized , should be everlastingly partakers of his resurrection ; but we are said to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , complanted with christ , in , through , or by means of , a likeness of his death , when we are truly and really mortified , and become dead unto sin , and to the world : which is a kind of death holding some analogy with , and carrying in it some resemblance of , that death which christ suffered upon the cross . and the apostle informs us , that by such a death as this , we become planted together with christ , i. e. interested with him in that most stable , fixed , and unchangeable councel and purpose of god , wherein he hath decreed the immortal glory and blessedness of all those that shall obey him . this sence of the place considered , how frivolous and impertinent is this supercilious interrogatory , which he builds upon it ? and may you not therefore as well suppose trees to grow together , before they are planted together , as to suppose christians to grow together before they are planted together ? yes surely , as well the latter , as the former : but the mischief of the impertinency is ; that christians may be planted together in christ by a work of mortification , and so grow together , whether they be baptized , or no : and they may be baptized together , and so be planted together as far as water can plant them , and yet not grow together ; but some wither and dye , whilest others grow and prosper . or however , such a plantation which is by baptism only , is no way , or means , of growth unto any man . and yet of the two , it is a broader impertinency , to make this demand , in stead of a proof that a church cannot stand but upon baptism , and what house stands without its principles , or is built without a foundation , only upon occasion of this admonition of the apostle to the hebrews ; leaving the word of the beginning of christ , let us advance towards perfection ; and his making , not the practise , but the doctrine , not of any one baptism determinately , but of baptisms ( plurally ) a part of the foundation ; i. e. of the body or systeme of that doctrine , which young beginners in the school of christ were wont to learn in the first place , as in building a foundation is first to be layd in order to a superstruction . but what is there in this passage , to prove that one baptism , or one kind of baptism , is the foundation of a church , more then another ? or that any kind of baptism , more then imposition of hands ? or that either imposition of hands , or baptism in one kind or other , more then repentance from dead works , or faith towards god ; especially considering that these two are named in the first place , as the principal parts of the foundation he speaks of , and first to be layd ? yea supposing that the hebrews , to whom he writes , were a constituted church , and that he had taught them the doctrine of baptisms under this constitution , it evidently follows , either that they were a church before they were baptized , or that they had been baptized before they had been instructed in the doctrine of baptism . i beleeve it is much harder for the anti-querist to escape goaring ( as he calls it ) by one or other of the horns of this dilemma , then we found it to make an escape from both the horns of that dilemma , which was prepared by him to do the mischief . . concerning the text , cor. . . where the apostle saith , not as our anti-querist citeth the words shorter by the head , that they were all baptized into one body ; but , by one spirit they were all baptized , &c. this scripture ( i say ) we argued somewhat at large in the last of our considerations ; and found war in the heart of it against church-constitution by water-baptism . and running is no posture for repetitions . only whereas my friend the anti-querist challengeth me that some while since i interpreted this scripture comportingly with his notion ; the truth is , that i do not find such a line in any fragment of the history of my life extant at present in my memory ; yet because i dayly find so little stedfastness in my memory , as i do , i had rather in the business trust my friend and his memory , then mine own . but this i well remember , that long since i learned this christian principle from an heathen philosopher , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a man must be content to sacrifice even his own sayings , and opinions , upon the service of the truth . this kind of sacrifice i have oft offered : and if my antagonist , and some others , could be perswaded to consecrate themselves priests of this order , with me , the water of baptism would be no longer a fire to divide between friends and friends . but they rather chuse to be priests of that order , whose hierourgy or priestly function mainly stands in sacrificing the body upon the service of the rayment , or the substance , upon the service of the shadow . . whereas he demands , ought not that , which was a reason to them [ he means , the apostles in the primitive times ] not to admit church-members into church fellowship [ we pardon the impropriety ] without baptism , to be a reason unto us likewise to steere the same cou●se , &c. doth he not very impertinently and groundlesly suppose , that they had a reason not to admit the admission he speaks of ? he hath not hitherto so much as intimated unto us any reason at all of such a non-admission in the apostles , as that now mentioned . if that should be granted him , which he will never be able to prove , viz. that the apostles did not admit into church-fellowship without baptism , yet it will not follow from hence , that therefore they had a reason to admit none without it ; especially if the case were so , as the anti querist seems to suppose it , viz. that no unbaptized person ever desired such admission of them . and suppose ( for argument sake ) that they had de facto admited into church-communion only unbaptized persons , it would not follow from hence , that therefore they had reason to exclude all others , as all that were baptized , in case they had desired it . if all who desired church-fellowship , and consequently all who were admitted unto it , were baptized ; is this any argument or proof , that therefore in case others had desired it , they must needs have been rejected ? if a man should go a fishing upon the seas , and should catch only of one sort of fish , as suppose whiteings , would it follow that therefore he had reason to catch no other ? . how importune and impertinent are these words also ! if so , then farewel all gospel obligations . for if we may take liberty to cast away one law of gospel order , and worship , then why not two , and so three , and in the end , all ? &c. for doth he not here suppose , that separating from churches , or persons , unbaptized ( though esteemed in the world , and by all but himself , and his , baptized ) is or was , a law of gospel order , binding christians of the first age ? surely this law is written on the back-side of some of pauls epistles , where no man did ever read it . and they that take liberty to cast away this law , are more like to bid all gospel obligations , welcome , then to bid them farewel . secondly he supposeth that those rules , by which the apostles ordered themselves in their times , were binding to christians of that age ; which is broadly importune and truthless . for the truth is , that no rule whatsoever , by which the apostles ordered themselves , as apostles ( and certainly they ordered themselves by many such rules as these ) was binding unto any other christian of that age , but unto themselves only . thirdly ( and lastly ) he supposeth it a grand absurdity , and tending to a dissolution of all gospel order , to imagin , that there were any gospel rules binding only to christians of the first age of the gospel . doth he think , that when christians of the age he speaks of , sold their possessions , lands , and houses , and brought the prices of them , and laid them down at the apostles feet , they did this irregularly , or without rule ? or without a rule binding unto them ? if this latter , then it follows , that either christ himself , or his apostles , prescribed some rules , which were not binding , no not unto christians of this first age ? or doth he think that that rule , by which those christians acted in the case specified , is binding unto us now ? yet that rule respected charity , and self-denial ; and so in reason should be more binding unto us now , then rules respecting only an outward rite or ceremony . again it was a rule binding unto those christians he speaks of , that their women praying or prophesying , should have their head covered , and that men on the contrary should have their heads uncovered . doth he judge this rule binding unto us now ? or do all men sin who prophesy [ i. e. joyn with him that preahcheth the word , in the act of hearing ] with their heads covered ? i beleeve there are many who should sin much more , if they should prophecy with their heads uncovered ; viz. all those who by reason of weakness or tenderness are like to suffer in their healths , if they should sit uncovered for an hour or two together , in a cold place and cold season . there is the same confideration of a frosty-dipping to persons that are valetudinary , of a crazy and infirm constitution , though it were supposed that there was a rule binding christians of that age , and of those warm countries , to dip at all times immediately upon their beleeving . instance might be given in several other gospel rules , which were binding unto christians of the first age , at least unto those particular christians to whom they were prescribed , and yet are not so unto us now . the rule which prescribed the holy kiss , which prescribed the speaking in an unknown tongue by two , or at the most by three , ( cor. . . ) which prescribed the holding of the peace to him that was speaking in the church , in case any thing were revealed unto another , ( cor. . . ) which prescribed abstaining from meat offered to idols , and from blood , &c. were binding unto those christians of the first age , to whom they were given ; but are they all binding unto us now ? or in case they were all now binding , but one or more of them not so apprehended by christians now , and upon this account not observed by them ; doth it follow from hence , that they must needs bid farewell to all gospel obligations ? if my anti-querist not seeing , or minding a friend of his passing by him in the street , should omit the salutations accustomed between friends , doth this tend to the abolishing or casting away all friendly commerce or expressions between them otherwise ? or in case a man gathering his apples , overlooks one that is more covered with leaves or boughs , then the rest , and so leaveth it ungathered , doth he hereby either dispose , tempt , or encourage , either himself , or others , never to gather apple more ? what frivolous and empty reasonings are these ? let me here observe this one thing more . the apostles were not so uniform in imposing ordinances upon churches in their days , but that what upon occasion they imposed upon one , sometimes they relaxed unto another . they imposed abstinence from meats offered to idols , and so from blood , upon the church at antioch , simply and indefinitely , act. . . whereas the apostle paul enjoyneth the former abstinence unto the church of corinth only in the case of scandal unto weak brethren , and of encouragement to idolaters , cor. , , . compared with chap. . , , , &c. and concerning the latter , he seemeth to relax it unto the generality of christians ( those haply excepted , to whom it had been enjoyned , together with others lying under the like circumstantial obligations thereunto ) in that passage to timothy , tim. . , , , . where he saith , that every creature of god is good , and nothing to be refused , if it be received with thanksgiving ; yea and ( which is more considerable ) maketh it a character of men giving heed to seducing spirits , and speaking lyes in hypocrisie , to command to abstain from meats , which god created to be received with thanksgiving , &c. . whereas he saith , that it is said in effect in cor. . , and the like scriptures lately quoted by him , that all of all sorts , ranks , and degrees , that were of the body , were baptized into the body , &c. it is indeed said ( as we heard ) that they were all by one spirit baptized into one body . but how impertinent , yea and voyd of truth is it to ascribe that unto water-baptism , which is so expresly attributed by the apostle to a baptizing in , or with , the spirit ? but this scripture hath been argued more at large . . ( and lastly , for this answer ) he saith , that the same ground which did satisfie beleevers then [ in the apostles days ] in not joyning in church fellowship with persons unbaptized , though they did beleeve — will serve to satisfie baptized beleevers now touching the lawfulness of the same practise , which is the will and appointment of jesus christ that so it should be , &c. but to how little purpose is this said ? for , . he hath not yet proved ( nor i beleeve ever will ) that baptized beleevers in the apostles days did not joyn in church-fellowship with persons un-baptized , though beleevers . and how impertinent is it in arguing , to suppose that without proof , which a man knoweth is denyed by his adversary ? . in case he had proved , or could prove , such a thing , ( i mean , that baptized beleevers did not joyn in church-fellowship with unbaptized beleevers , ) yet would it not follow from hence , that therefore they did not thus joyn with such upon any such ground as this , viz. because it was the will and appointment of iesus christ that so it should be . christians in these times ( as in all other ) did , and especially did not , many things , upon other grounds , then this , as viz because they have no occasion , opportunity , or necessity to do them . they did not joyn themselves in a team with horses , or after the manner of horses , to draw carts , or wains ; they did not , at least many of them did not , joyn with merchants where they lived , in their adventures by sea . did they omit the doing of these things ( and twenty more like unto them ) upon this ground , or motive , because it was the will and appointment of iesus christ that so it should be ? how uncouth , sapless , and without savor , are such conceits and reasonments as these ? the baptized beleevers he speaks of might possibly not joyn in church-fellowship with unbaptized beleevers , only upon this ground ; viz. because no such desired this fellowship with them . but will this ground serve to satisfie baptized beleevers now touching the lawfulness of such a practise , when as there are beleevers , whom they call unbaptized , who desire this fellowship with them ? but it is no great marvel that the carver , though a good artist , can make no better a mercury ; the wood he hath to work upon , is not for it . . ( and lastly ) the nonjoyning of baptized beleevers in church-fellowship with beleevers unbaptized , could it be proved , would serve to satisfie baptized beleevers now touching the lawfulness of the same practise . but not to joyn , and to break off or separate after joyning , are two very different practises . that ground which would satisfie a beleeving man or woman for their not joyning in marriagewith an infidel or unbeleever ; will not serve to satisfie them touching the lawfulness of the practise of separation from him , or her , after marriage . therefore my anti-querist doth not argue pertinently at this turn neither . he pleads another cause in stead of his own . for a cloze to what at present i reply to his answer given unto my first query , it is very observable , that he doth not at all , his long answer throughout , so much as touch upon one thing , which the said query asketh after with as great a desire of satisfaction , as after any thing besides . the query thus saluteth him : whether is there any precept , or example , in the gospel , of any person , how duly soever baptized , who disclaimed christian communion , either in church-fellowship , or in any the ordinances of the gospel , with those , whom he judged true beleevers , upon an account only of their not having been baptized , especially after such a manner , as he judged it necessary for them to have been ? these last words , especially after such a manner , &c. which are as emphatical as any other in all the query , and with which he found his cause harder pinched then with any thing besides , he prudently dissembles in his answer , as if they were not . to give a just and competent answer to the query , he should not only have attempted to prove , that there are examples in thegospel of baptized persons , who disclaimed church communion with beleevers upon the only account of their not having been baptized ( which indeed he hath attempted , though successlesly , ) but also that they disclaimed this communion with them upon the account only of their not having been baptized after such or such a particular mode , as they judged necessary . but speaking neither little nor much to this point , in stead of an answer in full to the query before him , he giveth us an answer that is empty ; and which speaketh short to other things , but to that which is most material , nothing at all . concerning his answer to the second query , it is of a like raw spinning with the former , and in neither respect , either of pertinency , or of truth , any whit more considerable then it . for , . ( to take notice in the beginning of this answer , of the same tergiversation , which we respited to the cloze of the former ) he doth his good will to say somewhat to what he conceived more repliable in the query ; but that which he apprehended ( as he had reason to do ) more intractable , he answereth with silence , and a prudential slip . yea whereas by transcribing so much of the query , as he doth , he induceth his reader to conceive that he presenteth him with the whole ; the truth is , that he wholly suppresseth and keeps out of sight , that intire clause , wherein the query beareth hardest upon him . for these words are not extant in his edition ; especially in case they had been baptized and solemnly consecrated by washing with water unto the service of jesus christ before . and as his prudence taught him not to acquaint his reader that there were any such words in the query , as these , so the same guide directed him to undertake somewhat else , in stead of answering any thing to the matter contained in them . for had his answer kept way with the demand intended in these words , it must have proved not simply , or only , that the apostles , or christians in their days , denyed church-communion unto beleevers not baptized , after their beleeving , but unto such beleevers also , who had been solemnly consecrated by washing with water unto the service of iesus christ before their beleeving . this he wisely considered was impossible for him to do : therefore he abandoneth it from amongst his undertakings . in the mean time we are like to have but a lame answer to the query . . how little savor , either of reason , or of truth , is there in the very first words of this answer ! for are they not these ? it doth not only appear , that the apostles and other christians would have declined church-communion with beleevers , because not baptized , but it appears that they did do it . for it sufficiently appears that men and women did beleeve , before they were baptized . by the way let this be minded ; that here also he evades and slips quire besides that , which that part of the query , to which here he pretends an answer , principally demanded . for it is here demanded , not only whether it can be proved , that the apostles , or other christians , would have declined church-communion with , but further , whether they would have denied this communion unto , such persons , whom they judged true beleevers , because not baptized . now the difference between , declining communion with , and , denying communion unto , is very broad . a man may decline , i. e. not do , many things , [ viz. in case he be not requested , or desired to do them ] which yet being requested , he would not deny to do . the apostles might very possibly decline , i. e. non-admit unbaptized beleevers into church-communion , upon a supposition that they desired it not . and yet as possibly , nay much more probably , not deny this communion unto them , in case they had desired it . but in as much as the anti-querist had not so much as in colour what to answer to this strein , or touch of the querie , his prudentials befriended him with this stratagem ; to leave out those words of the querie in the transcription , wherein this unruly demand was contained . but passing by this , how impertinently doth he argue that little which he undertakes , in the words mentioned ? for , first , suppose it should be granted him that the apostles and christians did decline communion with beleevers unbaptized , doth it presently follow , that therefore they declined it , because they were unbaptized ? a man declines such and such meats , which are tender and easie of digestion : but this proveth not , that their tenderness , or easiness of digestion is the reason why he declines them . every quality or property in a subject , is not the reason or ground of every thing that is done unto it , nor yet of the forbearance of every act , that is not acted upon , or about it . if my antiquerist demands ; but what can reasonably be supposed to be the reason or cause , why the apostles or others , should decline communion with un-baptized beleevers , but only their not being baptized ; i answer ; . that a simple non-admiting to communion , can in no tolerable construction be called , a declining of communion , or , of admiting to cōmunion . there be an hundred godly persons about thecity , whom i do not admit intochurch communion with me , whose communion notwithstanding i cannot with truth be charged to decline . therefore whilst my anti-querist only shews or proves , that the apostles , or others , did not admit into church-communion , beleevers unbaptized , he doth not at all hereby satisfie or answer thequestion propounded : this speaks of declining communion : he answers of not admiting to communion , here is only a stone given , when bread was demanded . yet , . to the question now propounded , i answer ; the reason why the apostles did not admit beleevers unbaptized into church-communion ( if this either should be granted , or could be proved ) is most probably this ; viz. because such beleevers desired it not of them . the apostles were not wont to admit into church-communion ( in that sence we now speak of admission ) any person against his will , or without his desire signified on such a behalf . if my friendly antogonist here replies ; but if the primitive beleevers did not desire admittance into church-communion , until they were baptized , why is not this primitive pattern followed now ? i answer ; . it is not affirmed , or granted , that they made no such desire , but only upon supposition , and for argument sake . yet , . the pattern mentioned , is , as far as i understand , generally followed in these days ; no person that i know , desiring church-communion , but such only , who judg themselves baptized , as the primitive christians did in their days . how untruly he saith , that it appears that the apostles and other christians did decline church-communion with beleevers unbaptized , because unbaptized , needs no further evidence then the late premises . the reason which he subjoyns , is most importunely impertinent . for what though it never so sufficiently appears that men and women did beleeve before they were baptized ? what is there in this to prove , that therefore the apostles and christians did decline church-communion with beleevers unbaptized , because unbaptized . he that can make hand and glove of this reason , and that which was to be proved by it , how gladly , were it possible , would i exchange understandings with him ! whereas he demands ; what is a not admiting , less , then a refusing to admit , them to such communion ? i answer ; that though i cannot tell what [ i. e. precisely how much ] less it is , yet this i am certain of ( and so may any other person readily be ) that very much less it is . a non-acting dothnot necessarily suppose an unwillingness to act , but possibly a want of an opportunity only for acting , and sometimes a want of power . but a refusing to act , always imports a want of will to act . . whereas he turns querist , and demands : will it follow , that because these external rites , baptism and the like , do not avail unto mens justification , when they are observed , that therefore they are not necessary unto church-communion . i answer affirmatively , yes , it will follow , for if men may be justified without baptism ; it follows that they may beleeve and be sanctified also , andconsequently brought into the number of saints , without it . now that the will and pleasure of the lord christ is , that all saints without exception , whether baptized or unbaptized , whether convinced of the necessity of baptism , orunconvinced , should be perfected [ i. e. built up to the greatest meetness for their inheritance in light , that may be ] and consequently admitted into church-communion , where the best means of such an edification are to be found , hath been sufficiently ( i trust ) proved in the preceding considerations . concerning the rite of circumcision , how , and with what limitations it was necessary to church-communion amongst the jews ; as likewise how different the consideration of circumcision , and baptism , is , about the regulation of church-communion , hath been argued at large already . and whereas he demands ; how then can the querist estimate the usefulnes and disusefulness of baptism as to church-communion , by circumcision , as he doth , &c. the querist answereth , that he is so far from doing that , which he is here charged to do , that ( as he even now intimated ) his since is , that there is altogether a different consideration between circumcision and baptism , in their respective relations to church-communion . only herein he confesseth an agreement between them , that as that is not circumcision , which is outward in the flesh ( rom. . . meaning , not the circumcision which much commendeth any man unto god ) so neither is that baptism which is externally administred and received , the baptism that much interesseth any person in his favour . . whereas he yet demands , how the apostles or others christians in these times would have known , or have been able upon good ground to have concluded , that such persons had truly beleeved in christ unto justification , and had been meet to be admitted to communion with them , who should ( if any such had been ) have refused to obey christ in submitting to baptism , &c. i answer ; whosoever refuseth [ i. e. professedly denyeth ] to obey christ , not only in submitting unto baptism , but in any other of his commands , [ being made known to be his unto him ] cannot ( i suppose ) by any argument or testimony whatsoever be concluded to beleeve in christ unto justification . but this nothing hindereth , but that in case any person be in the general course of his life conscientious , and observant of the laws of christ as far as the knowledg hereof shall come to him , he may be upon this account concluded a beleever unto justification , although being ignorant of , or dissatisfied about , any particular law of christ , as suppose his law concerning baptism , he should not exhibit obedience unto it . nor is a refusal to submit unto baptism , in these days , of a like interpretation with such a refusal in the days of the apostles : because then there could be no place for any question or doubt , whether a submitting unto baptism , at least being required by the apostles , were an act of obedience unto christ , or no ; whereas now it is the sence of some worthy christians ( i do not say it is mine ) that a submission unto baptism is rather an act of will-worship , then of obedience unto christ , and others are dissatisfied about the necessity of it . therefore although a refusing to be baptized then , did argue a rejection of the councel of god , in the refusers ; yet supposing that god hath now layd baptism aside ( which is the judgment of those lately mentioned ) a refusing to submit unto it rather argueth an accepting , then a rejecting , of the councel of god . as the jews who refused to submit , unto circumcision after the gospel had been preached unto them , did not herein reject the councel of god concerning circumcision , but imbrace and accept it ; however such a refusal before would have been a rejection of it . . neither doth the querist estimate the apostles judgment of gospel rites by what he speaks of circumcision , but by what he opposeth both to circumcision , and to uncircumcision , and speaketh concerning them . for whereas the apostle expresseth himself , thus : in jesus christ neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision , but faith which worketh by love : and again , circumcision is nothing , and uncircumcision is nothing , but the keeping of the commandments of god ; he plainly declares and avoucheth , that that which is opposite to such things which are nothing , a vail nothing , ( and consequently , which is somewhat , and which highly availeth ) is not baptism , nor any other external rite or ceremony , but such a thing , which is as contra-distinguishable against these , as against circumcision , or uncircumcision themselves , viz. faith which worketh by love ; and , the keeping of the commandments of god . nor doth an opposition made between faith , and gospel ordinances , any whit more set them together by the ears , then the evangelist john sets moses and christ ( who were and are , as good friends , as faith and gospel rites ) together by the ears , in making this opposition between them : for the law was given by moses : but grace and truth came by jesus christ . joh. . . or then john baptist set his baptism , and the baptism of christ , together by the ears , by opposing them thus : i indeed have baptized you with water : but he shall baptize you with the holy ghost and with fire . mar. . . he that saith , luther was of an active resolute , and tearing spirit , melancthon of a gentle and soft , doth not set these good friends together by the ears , but only shews wherein , notwithstanding their agreement as dear consorts and friends , they yet differed the one from the other . there are no two things in the world , but differ in something the one from the other : and consequently may in respect hereof , be opposed the one unto the other . yea though baptism ( i mean a submitting unto baptism ) be the keeping of a commandment of god ; yet may it regularly enough be opposed to the keeping of the commandments of god , as one man may be opposed unto many , or the setting of a mans foot out of his door , to the performance of a long journey . but these things are ( i suppose ) a little out of my anti-querist his element . . whereas he demands ; why doth the querist make circumcision a gospel rite , which is indeed a rite abolished by the gospel ? i may much more honestly demand , why doth the anti-querist lay to the querist charge a thing which he knoweth not , no nor yet the words of his querie ? for though he should say ( which yet he doth not , the anti-querist making too bold here , as too frequently elsewhere , to mis-recite his words , as the reader may readily observe by comparing the original all along with the transcript ) that under the gospel circumcision by a synechdoche speciei is put for all external rites and ceremonies , yet doth not such a saying as this necessarily suppose , or imply , circumcision to be a gospel rite . for rites , or ceremonies , being of two kinds , some of divine , others of humane institution , the apostle may by the sayd figure synechdoche , mention only circumcision , in stead of all other divine rites , without supposing it to be a gospel rite , inasmuch as there were far more rites of divine institution under the law , then there are under the gospel . his following words , and if for all kind , then certainly for gospel rites and ceremonies ; for they are some of all , have neither goodness of sence in them , nor pertinency to his business in hand . for what though circumcision be put for all kinds of rites [ of divine institution ] and consequently , for gospel rites also , yet doth it follow from hence , that it self must needs be a gospel rite ? by what principle in reason is this consequence formed ? supposing there are two sorts of men in the world , rich , and poor , and i , having occasion to speak of men in general , should , to give some light to my discourse , instance in john , thomas , or james , i should not by my instancing iohn ( for example ) in this case , suppose him to be determinately either a rich man , or a poor . but these things ( i confess ) are scarce worth the examining , excepting only that me thinks i perceive my anti-querist in a little extasie of contentment , by vertue of a conceit he hath that i have so ill behaved my self in the passage in hand , that he can make large earnings by descanting upon it . and i would wilingly awaken him out of his extasie . for certain i am , that there is nothing in the query , rightly understood , but is exception-proof . and the truth is , that all things in his answer to this query from first to last , duly considered , together with that his contentment mentioned , there seems to be a mixture of a kind of discontent against the apostle for opposing faith , the new creature , keeping the commandments of god , unto circumcision , and not baptism rather . for if it had been written thus ; in christ jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing , nor uncircumcision , but baptism which is by dipping , or plunging into water , i beleeve he would have been as hard or heavy to be born , as an hand maid that is heir to her mistris : prov. . . and i understand that a great doctor of that way , taking occasion not long since to open the said passage of the apostle to his people , made speciall treasure of this observation from it , that although the apostle saith , that in christ iesus circumcision availeth nothing , yet he doth not say that baptism availeth nothing . if he had understood the apostle ( a trouble of mind not much incident to th●● generation ) he must needs have known , that however the apostle did not in so many words say , that baptism availeth nothing , yet constructively and in pregnancie and neer-handedness of consequence , he said every whit as much , yea and somewhat more too . for by shuting out circumcision instance-wise , together with uncircumcision , and letting in onely faith , the new creature , the keeping the commands of god , it is a plain case that together with circumcision he excluded baptism also , yea and all other ceremoniall practications whatsoever . but such an observation as that now specified , is a competent instance , or example , whereby to estimate how unworthily the scriptures are commonly handled in those congregations . but , . my anti-querist greatneth the pile of his former impertinencies by heaping all these words upon it : neither surely would any man ( much less the querist ) be so impertinent , as to assert no externall rite availeable under the gospel , because circumcision is not , unless he held circumcision to be as much a gospel rite , as any other ; since it is against common sence to say , that which is greater is not available to such or such an end , because that which is less is not ; and yet more irrationall would it be to assert the non-availeableness of that which is , from the non-availeableness of that which is not : which yet would be the trip of the querist , if he should not think that circumcision had some manner of institutive being , yea as eminent a being under the gospel , as any other rite of the gospel hath . hereunto add we this vaine-glorious vapour in the following paragraph : truly i cannot but think that cause hard bested , that is fain to beg its bread out of such desolate places as is that of circumcision for one , whose foundation was long since rased by the hand of the gospel to the very ground . the long thread of all this discourse is spun of tow that hath touched the fire . the basis and ground work of the whole fabrick hath been already , rased to the very ground . for my friend al along supposeth , . that i make the best and most conscientious observation of gospel rites , of no acceptation at all with god . . that i argue that comparative non-availableness of gospel rites , which i assert and hold , from the non-availableness of circumcision simply considered . against both these i have sufficiently explained my self already , and likewise vindicated the words of the queree from any intimation or supposition of either . touching the former , i shall add nothing to the premises relating thereunto . for the latter , i have likewise shewed in as plain english as i know how to write , that neither do i , nor the queree , argue the comparative non-availableness of baptism , which the queree onely asserteth ( as the anti-querist himself yeildeth , as we formerly heard ) from the non-availableness of circumcision simply considered ( this we have formerly shewed to be a palpable mistake ) but from circumcision considered in that opposition , which the apostle maketh ( in the scripture before us ) between it , and faith ; and again , between it , and the new creature . from this opposition it evidently appeareth , that the apostle by excluding circumcision ( with uncircumcision ) from that availableness with god , which he solely ascribes unto faith , the new creature and the keeping the commandments of god , intended together with circumcision , to exclude all ceremoniall observances , as well those of the gospel , as those of the law . this considered , it had been more honour for the anti-querist to have kept himself as free from the charge , as the querist is from the crime or trip , of reasoning at any such rate of non-sence , at this : because that which is less , is not available to such , or such as end ; therefore neither is that which is greater available hereunto : or again , because that which is not , is not available ; therefore neither is that which is . how can i but think that my friend dreamt waking , when such reasonings as these , presented themselves to his imagination , as the arguing of his friend the querist ? either he complements profoundly in his private address by letter unto him , wherein he pretends to give him the right hand of himself in abilities to manage a discourse ; or else he renders himself weak indeed in such affairs , by making himself an underling in abilities to a man , the tenour and strain of whose reasonings is so far beneath the line of the most irrationall of men . by this time we suppose that the vapour also mentioned is wholly vanished into the ayre . the cause he speaks of , cannot well , at least needs not , beg the bread of it's support out of desolate places ; there being very few places , especially in the new testament , but which yeild this bread plentifully . a taste hereof is given in the premised considerations . but concerning the place , which he calls desolate , it hath been proved over and over , that there groweth a strong staff of bread for the support of the cause depending , in the very midst of it . . and lastly , whereas he demands ; but why also doth the querist oppose the rites and ceremonies of the gospel , or under the gospel , to the keeping the commands of god , &c. he should rather have demanded a reason why the apostle doth it . but whether it be the apostle , or the querist , or both , who makes this opposition , a plain reason hath been given of it , and the sense declared wherein this opposition is to be understood . yea i suppose the anti-querist himself can hardly be so enormously extravagant in his opinion or notion about baptism , as not to judg but that an habituall and constant course of obedience to the rest of the commandements of god , doth much more highly commend a person unto god , then one single act of an externall submission unto baptism . if so , then is there a manifest ground for an opposition between baptism , and a keeping of the commandments of god , yea though a subjection unto baptism be supposed to be an act of keeping one of these commandments , yea and available also , to a degree , for a commending of men unto god . for as little may very regularly be opposed unto much , and so , less , unto more ; so may that which is less acceptable unto god , be very properly , and according to the strictest rules of opposition , be opposed unto that which is more . neither is there so much as a face , or the lightest appearance of a contra-diction , between denying the observation of the ceremonies of the gospel to be available ( comparatively ) to any mans acceptation with god , and an affirming that a keeping the commands of god is highly available to such a purpose . but enough of this with a surplussage , formerly . thus we see plainly , and without a parable , that no answer hath as yet been given by the anti-querist to the two first queries , unless by answer we understand any thing which he that makes it is pleased so to cal . nor is it any disparagement to any mans abilities or worth , that he isnot able to make an egg stand end-ways upon a smooth table , without cracking it , though such an undertaking may ( i confess ) somewhat reflect upon him . my friend ( my anti-querist ) hath susteyned no loss at all in my esteem of his parts and abilities , by drawing up so insufficient an answer to the queries , as he hath don . for i well know and consider how far a mistaken province will oppress , abuse , and belye any mans learning , knowledg , parts , and abilities whatsoever . i suppose there is no need of any further ingagement of mine against the said answer ; the first fruits being polluted , the whole lump is hereby sufficiently proved to be unclean . only i shall take notice from his answer to the fourth query , how impertinently he citeth ( and upon no better account , vindicateth ) this of the apostle . ( tim. . . ) let as many servants as are under the yoke , count their own masters worthy of all honour , to overthrow this assertion of his querist , that this particle , as many as , in such constructions as those rom. . . and gal. . is always partitive . when the apostle ( saith he ) saith , let as many servants , as are under the yoke , count , &c. doth he thereby suppose , or imply , that there were some servants that were not under the yoke , or who were not to count their masters worthy all honour ? yes ( my good friend ) the apostle doth here suppose that there were some servants not under such a yoke as that , whereof he here speaks ; as is most evident from the opposition which he makes in the very nex words , verse . . speaking of servants of another kind ; but those who have beleeving masters , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , let them not despise them , &c. and the best expositors generally acknowledg and give notice of a distribution or partition of servants into two kinds , in this context of scripture ; yet not into two such kinds neither , as my antiquerist notioneth in his objection , which he so favorably frameth against himself , that he may plaufibly ( at least ) answer it . servants are not here distributed into beleeving , and unbeleeving ; but into such who are under the yoke , [ viz. of unbeleeving masters ] and such , who are free from this yoke , as being servants to masters , who beleeve . both the one and the other kind of servants are plainly enough supposed by the apostle to be beleevers . nor was it his manner in any of his epistles , to give directions about the carriage or behavior of infidels , or to prescribe matters of duty unto them . how impertinent then is that which he pretends in the answer , which he draweth up to his own objection , viz. that these expressions , as many as , used . rom. . . gal. . . intentionally only respect those at rome ( and so in galatia ) who did beleeve , and were baptized , and therefore are partitive in respect of others the inhabitants of those places , dividing those of these churches from others dwelling in the same places , &c. for what can be more evident then that the apostle by the particle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as manyas , in the scriptures before us , did not intend to divide the beleeving members of the churches of rome & galatia , from the unbeleeving party of men in these places , but only beleevers themselves amongst themselves , the baptized , from the un-baptized ; considering that in the former of the said places , he expresseth himself thus ; know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into jesus christ , &c. and in the latter , thus : for as many of yov as have been baptized , & c ? is it worthy any mans belief , that paul writing thus to the beleeving members of the church at rome , know ye not that so many of us that were baptized , &c. should either in the pronoun , us include nero , with all the rabble of pagan idolater in rome , as if he wrot to these , as well as to the saints or that he intended to signifie unto them , that himself was one of those , who dwelt in rome ? or is not his meaning in saying so many of us as , &c. clearly this , that as many of us saints , or of us beleevers , who have been baptized ? for in what other consideration , rel●●ion , or respect , he should make himself one of them , is not easie to imagin . evident it is from chap. . . . that he was no dweller in rome , at the time of writing this epistle , nor had been any time before . so likewise when he writes to the churches , and members of the churches of galatia , thus ; for as many of yov as have been baptized , &c. can his meaning be , as many of you who dwell in galatia , as have been baptized ? or doth not such a sence as this plainly imply , that he wrote his epistle aswel to the infidels in the countries of galatia , as to the members of the christian churches there ? therefore ( questionless ) the apostles meaning in the words before us , is plainly and directly this : as many of you , who being members of the churches of galatia , have been baptized into christ , have put on christ : and consequently the particle {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as many as , is not partitive of the beleevers in the places mentioned , from the rest of unbeleeving inhabitants there , but of beleevers amongst themselves , those that had been baptized , from those who were at present unbaptized , in either place respectively . this to be the express sence of the two passages mentioned might be further evidenced by the light of sundry considerations , but that we judge the premises already levied sufficient to establish that conclusion . it being then so clear a case , that there were some members of churches in the apostles days , who were unbaptized , at least for a time , it undenyably follows , that baptism is no constitutor of churches ; as the beloved notion of my anti-querist beareth . concerning that copweb-piece , stiled by the author , some baptismal abuses briefly discovered , wherewith some silly flies ( as i understand ) have been intangled and catched , there is a besome preparing for the brushing away of that also from the temple of god , so far as it is catching , and hath not been dismantled by the contents of these papers . for the tail of it , wherein the sting , and the worst of the poyson lies , hath been cut off and swept away hereby . the anatomy of ana-baptism . ana-baptism , is , by the modern architects of it , built upon foundations , or grounds of three sorts . some . true , but not pertinent . . fals , and therefore not pertinent . . conjecturall onely , and therefore very little pertinent . . of the first sort are . all those texts of scripture , on which they mis-ground , first their opinion , and then their practictise . as , mat. . . mar. . . act. . , . act. . . rom. . , . coloss. . . heb. . . ( possibly with some others ) these are true grounds of doctrines , and practises corresponding ; but are irrelative to the doctrine and practise of ana-baptism . . of this sort also , are these , and some other like tenents upon which they build their said fabrick . . that in the scripture there is no particular or expresse , either precept , or example , for infant-baptism . . that no ordinance of christ , can be neglected , or omitted , without sin . this rightly understood , and with due limitation , is a truth also : but thus understood , it reacheth not their practise . . of the second sort are these , . that in case infants were not baptized in the dayes of iohn the baptist , nor of christ , nor of his apostles , then ought not baptism to be administred unto infants now . . that circumcision was neither sign nor seal of the righteousness of faith , or of the covenant of grace , but unto the person of abraham onely . . that baptism it self is no seal of the covenant of grace unto any person whatsoever , but a sign onely . . that an administration of baptism made to professing beleevers , doth more conduce unto , and better answer the ends of baptism , then that which is made to infants . . that infant-baptism is disagreeable to the ministration of the new testament . . that none ought to be baptized but such who [ in their own person ] appear voluntarily willing to be baptized in obedience unto god . . that infant-baptism is a nullitie . . that infant-church-member-ship was a leviticall ceremonie , and abolished ( with the rest of the legall ceremonies ) by christ in the gospell . . that a profession of faith , whether reall , or feigned , is a more warrantable ground , whereon to administer baptism , then an estate in grace , though attested by god himself . . that any person un-baptized , may , without special commission from god , and without proof-making of such a commission , administer baptism ; and that such a mans administration ( together with all the administrations lineally descending from it ) is the institution of christ . . that any person whatsoever pretending to beleeve , and to have been baptized , whether invested into any office , or not , may as lawfully administer baptism , as he that is an officer in a church . . that not simply baptism , but the administration of baptism to beleevers onely , is an ordinance of christ properly so called . . that there can be no warrantable ground for the administration of an ordinance to such or such a subject , or after such or such a manner , but either a particular and express precept for , or example of , the one , and the other . . that there ought to be a resemblance , or similitude , between the sign , and the thing signified [ as there is between the bush , and the wine in the vintners celler ; and was between the streight pole on which the brazen serpent was lift up , and the cross timber , on which the lord christ was crucified ; and again between the rain-bow , and the safty of the earth from drowning , between circumcision , and the covenant which god made with abraham , and his seed . ] . that the baptizing of infants is unlawful , because it is not a ordinance of christ . . that obedience to external rites , ordinances and institutions , is to be preferred before obedience to the law of nature , or to the precepts of the moral law . . that no circumstance mentioned in the tenour of an institution , or observed in the first administration thereof , can without sin either be omitted , or varied , in after administrations , upon any occasion or consideration whatsoever . . that persons baptized after the new mode of dipping , though void of saving grace , and strangers unto holiness , are notwithstanding , by vertue of such their baptism , rendered visible saints ; whereas others not so baptized , are invisible , notwithstanding the greatest exemplariness of saint-ship in the whole course of their lives , and conversations otherwise . . that children under the gospel are more unworthy , more unmeet , less capable , subjects of baptism , then they were of circumcision under the law . . that it was better , and more edifying unto men to receive the initiating or first sacramental pledg of gods fatherly love and care , in the time of their infancy , under the law ; and that now under the gospel , it is worse , and less edifying unto them to receive it at the same time , and better and more edifying to receive it afterwards , viz. when they come to years of discretion . . that the jews , who beleeved in christ , and so came under the gospel administration , were , in respect of their children , in a worse condition , then they had been in under the law : and that such of the gentiles , who were by faith engrafted into their olive , did , in their children , partake less of the root and fatness thereof , then the iews themselves , before the coming of christ in the flesh , had done : and consequently , that god was much more indulgent unto children , yea and unto parents in reference to their children , under the law , then he is under the gospel . . that parents may dis-interess their children of church priviledges , by their apostacy or unbelief ; but cannot restore them hereunto by their repentance , or beleeving . that such iews , who , together with there children , were church-members , before their coming in by faith unto christ , by this coming in to christ , bereaved their children of this priviledg without any recompence . of the third ( and last ) sort are these . . that there was no child in any of those families or housholds , which are recorded in the new testament to have been baptized . . that no infant or child was baptized in the days of iohn the baptist , or of christ , or of the apostles . . that all , and every the respective members of all and every the respective churches in the apostles days , were baptized . . that the eunuch baptized by philip . act. . and those gentiles commanded by peter to be baptized , act. . were baptized by a total immersion of their bodies under water by those , who baptized them . . that persons , who from their infancy , or first capacity of making any profession of religion at all , have publiquely and constantly professed the name and faith of christ in the world , ought to be baptized into this profession after ten , twenty , forty years spent and passed in this profession . . that infant-baptism was first brought into the christian church after the days of the apostles . . that baptism ought aswel to be administred , yea and urged and imposed , in a place , city or country , where the gospel hath flourished for an hundred years together , or more , as at , or about the time , when ( through the providence of god ) it first came in the ministry of it , unto this place . of these three kinds of arguments or grounds ( as they have been now represented ) that the first are impertinent ( as to the justification of ana-baptism ) the second , erroneous ; the third and last , conjectural only , i am all thoughts made ; and shall , god sparing me health and life , and more material occasions not intervening , give an account of my faith herein in due time . finis . errata . pag. . l. . read , operatio . pag. . l. . r. actuall . pag. . l. . r. separate . pag. . l. . for muck r. smoak . pag. . l. . r. should have . pag. . l. . r. baptism . pag. . l. . r. or the cup . pag. . l. . r. much more . pag. . l. . r. or at least . pag. . l. . for , two r. to . pag. . l. ult , r. whether . pag. . l. . r. admitted . pag. . l. . r. other . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- fides cum haeretic●s non est servanda . notes for div a e- * by son of man here , is not meant christ ( personally considered , ) but any person of mankind . see hugo grotius upon the place , who giveth a sufficient account of this exposition . * eos quoque asserit diabolico ut● spiritu , qui separant ecclesiam dei : ut omnium temporum haereticos & schismaticos comprehenderet , quibus indulgentiam negat , quod omne peccatum [ aliud ] est circa singulus , hoc in universos . soli enim sunt qui volunt solvire christi gratiam , qui eccleslae membra discerpunt , propter quam passus est dominus , spiritusque , sanctus datus est nobis . ambr. de poenitentia . lib. . c. . † treatise entituled , of baptism , ( p. . ) generally presumed written by mr lawrence . see rom. ● . . cor. . . cor. . . ephes. . . phil. . . col. ● . . . cor. . . thes. . * mr fisher . baby-baptism , p. . act. . ● . the doctrine of baptism is numbred as mongst the foundations of christ ( i.e. such principles or doctrines , as were usually first taught and learned by yong scholars in christianity , as being easie of perception ) but this proveth not the actual reception of the rite of any baptism , one or other , is essential to the making a man a true member of christ , nor yet of a church of christ , any whit mo●e ( if so much ) then a cordial beleif of that far greater foundation ( of the two ) the resurrection of the dead . * this commission cannot be thought to obliege , or impower , ordinary pastors or teachers ; because they were not to go and teach all nations ; but to watch over those particular flocks , over which the holy ghost maketh them overseers , acts . . pet. . . a those words dan. . . but go thou thy way til the end be , for thou shalt rest & stand up in thy lot at the end of the days , are commonly understood in a sence of much affinity hereunto . a the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is commonly rendred , sect. see act. . . act. . . act. . . . act. . . act. . . a mat. . . & . . b luk. . . & . act. . c psal. . . d kin. . , * luke , ● , mat , . a gal. . b gal. . . a exod. . first argument against lawfullness of communion with undipt churches , answered . second argument answered . the third argument ans●ered . fourth ( and last ) argument against the lawfulness of communion with churches undipt , answered . notes for div a e- seneca . a luk. , , , . * gal. . . . , &c. the answer to the second query , examined . prelatique preachers none of christ's teachers, or, a disswasive unto the people of god from attending the ministry (so called) of those, who preach by verture of an (apocryphal) ordination, received from an order of men, commonly stiled lord bishops wherein arguments are tendered to their serious considerations, by way of motive against that practice ... . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) prelatique preachers none of christ's teachers, or, a disswasive unto the people of god from attending the ministry (so called) of those, who preach by verture of an (apocryphal) ordination, received from an order of men, commonly stiled lord bishops wherein arguments are tendered to their serious considerations, by way of motive against that practice ... . goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. [s.n.], london : . 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church of england -- clergy. ordination. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion prelatique preachers none of christ's teachers : or , a disswasive unto the people of god from attending the ministry ( so called ) of those , who preach by vertue of an ( apocryphal ) ordination , received from an order of men , commonly stiled lord bishops . wherein arguments are tendered to their serious considerations , by way of motive against that practice ; the unlawfulness thereof demonstrated : and the pretences briefly answered , which commonly are , or lightly can be pleaded , in justification of it . and what agreement hath the temple of god with idols ? for ye are the temple of the living god : — wherefore come out from among them , and be ye separate , saith the lord , and touch not the unclean thing , and i will receive you ; and will be a father unto you , and ye shall be my sons and daughters , saith the lord almighty , cor. . , , . for such are false apostles , deceitful workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ . and no marvel ; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness ; whose end shall be according to their works , cor. . , , . — from such turn away , tim. . . then jesus said unto them , take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees , and of the sadduces , [ that is , of their doctrine ] matth. . , . he that is not with me , is against me ; and he that gathereth not with me , scattereth abroad , matth. . . — let them return unto thee , but return not thou unto them , jer. . . tell me ( o thou whom my soul loveth ) where thou feedest , where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon ; for why should i be as one that turneth aside by [ or , unto ] the flocks of thy companions ? cant. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ignatius , epist . . malus ecclesiae praepositus deseri cum suâ communione potest , imo debet . cyprian . . ep. . london , printed in the year , . a disswasive unto the people of god , from attending the ministry ( so called ) of those , who preach by vertue of an ( apocryphal ) ordination , received from an order of men , commonly stiled , lord ` bishops . take heed whom you hear . the idolatrous madness of the common-prayerbook-worship , hath of late been made so manifest to all the houshold of faith in the nation , that my confidence is great , that it shall not proceed any further to ensnare and pollute any of the sons and daughters of god , by joyning in the offering up of such strange fire unto him . and though there be some , who , having formerly cast it off as a menstruous rag of popish devotion , are of late , with the dog , returned unto their vomit , making themselves transgressors by building up , what once they destroyed ; yet god ( i trust ) will suddenly stop and heal this unclean issue in the body of his people , and so curse the root of this bitterness , that it shall not bring forth much fruit , nor many be defiled with it . yea , though a second repentance in such cases , be not a fruit that groweth very plentifully on the tree of flesh and blood , yet am i not without all hope but that through the grace and mercy of god , some of those may awaken , and recover themselves out of this snare of satan , whose foot hath been taken , and is ( at present ) held in it . i confess the world hath of late given a furious on-set and charge upon the saints of god amongst us , yea , upon all that professed any thing ( almost ) after the manner of saints , and as becometh the gospel , to cause them to give back from that holy ground which they had gained , and on which they stood ; neither is it any marvel , there being so many millions of a stricter profession in the nation , that all of them should not prove valiant in fight , or that some of them , for fear of the fiery furnace , being het seven times hotter than ordinary , should not how down to the golden image of that worship , which the nebuchadnezzar-like interest of the prelatical party in the nation had set up . but leaving those , who tremble to make gods of men , by ascribing unto them the incommunicable property or prerogative of god , in appointing and imposing his own worship , unto the safeguarding of his blessing upon those convictions of the truth , which have subdued their judgments and consciences under it ; and those that are turned aside like a deceitful [ or , warped ] bow , unto the mercies of god , for the bringing of them back again from babylon unto sion , that they be not surprized in the vengeance of babylon , ( which is now even at the door ) i shall proceed to tender unto the consciences of those , whose sovereign interest it is to approve themselves throughly unto god , a few considerations , by the light whereof they may see how unlawful it is ( especially as the case now standeth ) to be hearers , where men of episcopal ordination , by vertue hereof are the teachers . consideration i. that authority of teaching ; wherewith the teachers we speak of are invested , by that kind of bishop which presumes to give it , is a meer nullity and lye . the gospel knows no bishop of such a character or complexion , as are appropriately theirs , who claim and exercise a power as of obtruding upon christ and his churches , on the one hand , what persons they please in the name of ministers , or teachers , ( only if they be desirous to accept of this sacred investiture from their hand ; ) so on the other hand , to keep back such from their service , whom both the one and the other , most desire in this relation , only because god hath not given them darkness for a vision , or sent them this strong delusion , confidently to imagine , that they see prelates , or diocesan bishops , walking like angels in the plains of the gospel , and christ giving them power to prescribe in his church what forms of worship , be they never so uncouth , and what ceremonies , be they never so apish , they please . besides many other writings , both formerly , and more lately published , which demonstrate the generation of such bishops to be aliens and strangers to the laws and statutes of the common-wealth of israel , the un-bishopping of timothy and titus , with the angel of the church of ephesus ( a book first compiled and printed , anno , and lately reprinted , with sundry enlargements , by the learned gentleman , william prynne esq ; ) clearly vindicates the gospel from all complyance with them , and sends them to seek their pedigree and original , where they will be ashamed to find it . and ( doubtless ) the contest about prelatical usurpations had been comprimised long before this , and the churches of christ discharged of such unsupportable burdens , were not all disputes against carnal interests , like gapings against an oven , and the truth , though speaking with the tongues of men and angels , a barbarian unto those , whose judgements and consciences are under an arrest by the pomp and grandure , either in spe , or in re , of this present world : for to reason un-bewitched , it cannot ( lightly ) but appear an incredibility of the first magnitude , that christ should appoint such an high officer in his church , as the diocesan , and especially the metropolitan bishop beareth himself with an importune and high hand to be ; and yet neither give them any name whereby to be known or distinguished from others , nor yet assign them any work or service at all , in , or for the church . when christ ascended on high , and gave gifts unto men , he gave some apostles ; and some prophets ; and some evangelists ; and some pastors and teachers : but we hear of none given , either lord bishops , diocesans , or metropolitans . when he descended into hell [ or , into the lower parts of the earth ] themselves will not plead , that he brought them up from thence . therefore ( without controversie ) they are no plants of christs planting ; neither is there any thing in the church for them to do : for the whole work that concerns the spiritual welfare of the church from first to last , is committed to the church-officers lately named by the apostle , as being every way sufficient for the effectual performance of it . this the context speaks plainly enough , and without a parable : he gave some apostles , — and some pastors and teachers ; for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , for the edifying of the body of christ ; till we all come in the vnity of the faith , and of the knowledge of the son of god , unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of christ ; that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro , &c. ephes . . , , , . so that there is no empty or void space in the spiritual concernments of the church , for our diocesan bishops to thrust in with their importune and officious interposure ; apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors and teachers ; have the whole heritage of this work divided amongst them by the lord christ himself . or if there be any thing left for our lord bishops to do by way of service to the church , it is to teach them , as gideon taught the men of succoth , with thorns and bryars , to perfect them through sufferings , and so to prepare them for their glory : this service ( i confess ) they do them with great diligence , and very effectually . nevertheless , christ never set them up in his church , to do either this or any other service unto it : only he permitted them , whilst the church slept , to convey themselves slily into it : and because the teaching of the members hereof by afflictions , is a necessary work , and most proper to be done by the vilest and most unworthy of men , therefore ( i conceive ) he hath judged it meet to afford an opportunity to this generation of men , to be the actors in chief in it . but now that kind of bishop we speak of , being no gospel creature , nor any wayes derived or descended from christ , it is a clear case that he hath no right of authority or power from him ( and from any other he cannot have it ) to exercise any ecclesiastical function at all , much lesse to create , or make any gospel minister . it is a true rule , non entis nullae sunt affectiones , nulla est efficacia ; that which is not , hath not wherewith to act , or operate . so that as the apostle peter said to the criple , silver and gold have i none ; but such as i have give i unto thee . ( acts . . ) our diocesan bishops may on the contrary say unto those that come unto them for authority and power to preach the gospel , silver and gold we have in abundance , but that which we have , we will not give unto you ; but what we have not , that we freely give unto you ; go , and preach the gospel [ although neither do they give this their nothing very freely , unlesse it be in such a sence , wherein a merchant may be said to part with his bad commodity very freely , or willingly , when he knows he shall receive more money for it than it is worth ] therefore they , who embrace men episcopally ordained , as teachers sent by christ , and upon this account hear them , set their eyes upon that which is not , yea , and do homage unto an idol . consideration ii. to afford our presence and attention unto men preaching by episcopal authority , is to strengthen the hierarchical interest , to credit and countenance the horrid usurpations of the prelatical order , in , and over the churches of christ : and consequently , to involve our selves in the guilt of all those out-rages of oppression and cruelty , whereby they daily waste and wear out the saints of god amongst them ; and so to render our selves justly liable to partake with them in their plagues , when god shall bring the day of their vengeance upon them . to own those for our ministers and teachers , who are sent forth by them to teach ( and own them for such we do , if we frequently , or ordinarily , hear them ) is to own those who send them , and to set to our seal , and give them testimony , that they are intrusted , and invested by christ , with that authority and power , in the name ( or by the pretence rather ) of which they so send them . for what can we ( lightly ) do to commend them unto the world upon higher terms , then by such our approbation of them ? or were we desirous , as far as lyeth in us , to make the mountain of their present power so strong that it should never be moved , by what other means more probable , or promising , could we endeavour , or attempt it ? for who , though but in face a christian , will not fear to have a hand in the rooting out , yea , or in opposing , such men , or such an order of men , amongst them , who have this testimony from serious and well-advised christians , that jesus christ hath entrusted them with the care , and power of providing meet and worthy ministers for all his churches round about them ? verily , verily , i say unto you , ( saith christ , john . . ) if i send any , ( so our former translation , and so the original ) he that receiveth him , receiveth me ; and he that receiveth me , receiveth him that sent me . he is said to receive a minister , or messenger , sent by christ , who heareth him , ( as appeareth by the parallel place , luke . . ) that is , who heareth him , as , or because , sent by christ ; or , who heareth his doctrine with reverence and submission , and so as to own it . now the receiving of christ [ in his messengers , or , in their doctrine ] is such an act which tendeth highly to the honour of christ , and to the confirmation and enlargment of his interest in the world , and is mentioned under such a consideration as this , in the words now cited : therefore upon the same account , he that receiveth , or heareth , persons sent by our apocryphal bishops to preach , receiveth them , and hereby contributeth not a little towards the establishment of them in the possession of that exorbitant and monstrous power , by which they tyrannize over the consciences and comforts of those , that are loyal and faithful unto jesus christ , and so ( as hath been said ) becomes accessary to all the sufferings of the saints , by means of that power , in those mens hands . this is another consideration disswading the people of god from attending upon episcopal emissaries in their work of preaching . consideration iii. the hearing of men sent by the bishops , being ( as was now shewed ) a receiving of these bishops themselves ( in the sence declared ) must needs be a walking uncharitably towards them , and a means to keep their foot fast in that snare of death , wherein it is at present taken , and to put far from them the happy day of repentance from their unchristian usurpations ( together with many other high misdemeanours accompanying these ) whereby they might be saved . for when they shall see the servants of god ( especially the more knowing , and better advised of them ) rejoyceing in the light of ministers of their making , and sending forth , how shall they not applaud themselves in their office , yea , and think they do both god , and his churches special service , by supplying these from time to time with men of worth , who are able to speak unto them words , by which they hope they may , or shall be saved ? men that receive so large a testimony of the usefulness of their callings , and goodness of their practises and walkings in them , from persons so considerable as those mentioned , are not like to resent , or suspect , any such evil in either , for which they need any open , or solemn repentance . so that for the servants of god to honour , with their attendance , the ministry of men preaching by episcopal authority , is ( in reality of construction ) a flattering of the bishops themselves ; and ( doutless ) what solomon speaks ( prov. . . ) of a flattering mouth , as viz. that it worketh ruine , is altogether as true of flattering actions , by which men may be flattered into ruine , as well as by words of like import . now though the bishops we speak of be guilty of the blood of many thousands of precious souls , for whom christ dyed , partly by thrusting out of the vineyard of christ many true and faithful labourers , which christ himself had sent in thither ; partly by keeping out many others of like worthy character , not permitting any entrance , but onely by the polluted door of their ordination , by which very few , or none , qualified aright for the ministry , can obtain leave of their consciences to enter ; but chiefly by setting over them , or obtruding upon them , ignorant , scandalous , and prophane persons , for spiritual guides , besides many other exemplary misdemeanors , and unworthy practises , in their own lives and conversations ? although ( i say ) our bishops ( so called ) do by these means , without the least regret , or remorse of conscience , bring upon their heads the blood of many thousand precious souls , yet will not this justifie , or excuse the children of god , if they shall act any thing , which is like to further the perdition of their souls , the salvation whereof , ( the enormous wickedness of the men notwithstanding ) they stand bound , both by the law of charity , and in conscience towards god , not to hinder ( as by encouraging , or hardening them in any evil way ) but to promote with the best of their understanding . therefore , consideration . iv. as the apostle ( thes . . , . ) prescribeth unto the saints , the separating , or withdrawing of themselves from a brother that walketh inordinately , as a proper and christian means to make him ashamed ( that is , to bring him to repentance , by occasioning him to reflect upon the evil of his way more seriously , and so to further his salvation ) in like manner , the withdrawing of good christians from the prelates in their ministers ( in whose creation , and imposition upon churches , they walk most disorderly ) being a means of a promising and likely import , to make them ashamed of such their prelatical presumptions and misdemeanors , cannot in reason , or in conscience , but be interpreted as a matter of duty lying upon them to practise : if men have any thing of men , any spark of ingenuity in them , any sence of interest either with god or men , they cannot but be severely jealous of such wayes and doings ; upon which the generation of the righteous shall set the black brand of their dis-approbation , by refusing all communion and fellowship with them , even at a distance ; and this out of conscience towards god , and for fear of his displeasure . consideration v. to accept , with contentment and satisfaction , of spiritual means , proffered , or conveyed unto us , by a false authority , or by persons no wayes interessed , or intrusted by christ , is , as far as in us lyeth , to make void , or ( however ) to discredit , the right and just title of those , upon whom christ hath ( indeed ) conferred this trust and honour ; and as he , who renting another man's ground , shall turn tenant , and pay his rent to a false land-lord , upon a pretended claim made by him of right to the said lands , much weakneth and disableth the title of the true : in like manner , he that from time to time shall honour with his presence and attention , a ministry advanced by such an order of men , who have no right , but only a frivolous and empty pretext of right , to impose ministers upon christian congregations , must needs hereby obscure and wrong the just title and claim , which the churches of christ have , by the gracious donation and grant of christ , to chuse , ordain , and set over themselves pastors and teachers . consideration vi. for a man not to depend upon god for such a blessing upon his diligent and prudent endeavours in a lawful calling , which shall supply and furnish him with things needful for this present life , or not to be content with such supplies in this kind , which the blessing of god upon his honest labours , furnisheth him with ; but to turn aside into dishonest wayes , as of their , deceit , &c. through fear of want , or of being starved , or the like ; any of these practices is a ( constructive ) complaining of the providence of god unto the world ( or rather , indeed , unto the devil : ) and for christians to seek their spiritual food at those lips , which not god , but his enemies have opened , and polluted , by touching them with a dead coal from their altar , is it of any better interpretation , than a professed jealousie , or doubtfulness of mind , whether christ will nourish them with the words of eternal life , and make them wise unto salvation , in case they should strictly confine and keep themselves to the use of such means only which he hath sanctified , and which are unquestionably approved by him , especially , when like the waters of siloam , they run but softly , and not embolden their consciences to comport with such other means for their edification , the lawfulness whereof , as themselves formerly scrupled , so many thousands of the saints absolutely deny at this day , not daring to accept of any soul-provisions promised or pretended by them . consideration vii . to undermine and defeat the counsels and attempts of men , who resist the truth ( as jannes and jambres did moses , tim. . . ) by means and wayes lawful and sutable to the gospel , and which are within our power , is ( without controversie ) a duty lying upon all men : how much more upon all saints ? that our lord bishops are deep in the condemnation of resisting the truth ; and this much after the same manner , wherein those egyptian sorcerers resisted moses ( namely , by promoting a counterfeit and false worship and service of god , like unto the true : as those sorcerers deluded pharoah and the egyptians , by counterfeiting those real and true miracles which moses wrought , and hereby sought to frustrate moses his negotiation with pharoah about the israelites deliverance ) is no paradox , nor probleme [ or difficult question ] amongst true and knowing christians . again , that a detection or discovery of the folly or madness of those , who either thus , or in any other way , resist the truth ( for the scripture supposeth a designed resistance of the truth to be madness , or folly in her exaltation , in whomsoever it be found , pet. . . tim. . . ) is an effectual means to supercede their wickedness in that kind , and to prevent their further progresse in their course , the holy ghost himself informeth us : but they [ men of corrupt minds , and resisting the truth ] shall proceed no further : for their folly [ or , madness ] shall be manifest unto all men , as their also was , tim. . . now then , if the refraining of the saints from those spiritual tables , which are spread by the bishops ( i mean , from the preachments of men of their anoynting ) be a proper and likely means to manifest their folly unto the world , in their hostile devices and attempts against the truth , it is ( certainly ) a duty incumbent upon them to use such abstinence . that this abstinence is a means promising the happy effect mentioned , may be conceived by that discovery , which davids absence once and again from saul's table , made of saul's wickedness , in his unreasonable malice against david , and consequently against god himself . the historical passage hereof may be read , sam. . from vers . . to the end of vers . . for , as saul , finding david's accustomed place at his table empty twice together , was hereby provoked to shew himself in his colours of wretchedness and impiety : so is it not unlike but that sober and good men , by a constant absenting themselves from ministers of the hierarchical unction , on whose ministry they had formerly been wont to attend , will draw out into the view of all men , that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that folly , or madness , in their great lords and masters ( the bishops ) which being discovered , will render them the general abhorring of men , and so cause them to fall like lightning from the heaven of their glory and put a period to their kingdom . and as the providence of god delivered david from the malicious and bloody rage of saul , wherewith he pursued him upon his absence from his table ; so may the good people of god expect protection from on high , in case the said bishops , making themselves aggrieved at their departure from thei spiritual provisions , which they have ordained for them , shall attempt to magnifie themselves in wrath and revenge against them . besides , the general refraining of sober and understanding christians from the ministry of a prelatical erection , which many of them had ( in the simplicity of their hearts ) formerly frequented , cannot but occasion persons of ingenuous and free spirits , to enquire into the grounds and reasons hereof ; in which enquiry , very probable it is that they will discover , or be led to somewhat , either in the office , or usurpations , of the prelatical order , as the just occasion of it ; the consideration whereof may cause them also to turn apostates from their former esteem and approbation of them . consideration viii . if we speak of the generality of those ministers , who retain the signature of prelatical hands laid upon them , and have not some wayes or other defaced it , we may truly say ( in the scripture phrase , mic. . . ) the best of them is as a bryar , the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge . few sermons are preached by them , in which something is not uttered , that is justly offensive and grievous to the spirits of holy and good men . yea , of these apothecaries , such as are accounted both the most honest , and skilful , in their profession , and to vend the best , and wholsomest druggs , and receits , have one or other dead fly ( and commonly more then one ) in their oyntment , which causeth it to cast forth a stinking savour in the nostrils of those who have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil . ( neither can it in reason be expected otherwise : for being sworn vassals to the prelatical interest and design , and this being to subject the power of godliness unto the form , and so to uphold their super-numerary function , dignity , and tyrannical grandure , in , and over the churches of christ , the ministers we speak of are ever and anon , or at times , necessitated to act their parts in opposition to the holy desires and design of the true and faithful servants of god , whose hearts are deeply set within them for the advancement of the power of godliness in the world , above the form of it , and not to acknowledge , or do homage unto any person , or persons , claiming dominion over their faith , but unto christ onely . the particulars , by one , or more of which , the said ministers are wont to make the hearts of persons truly godly , heavy and sad , are these ( with their fellows ) . they are expresly enjoyned by their patent to shew their child like ( that i say , not blind ) obedience to their grandfathers ( the bishops ) by saying over their creed , and their pater-noster , over , and over , and over , once ( at least ) every month , together with the rest of the devices comprehended under the title of common-prayer , and this publickly , and in the face of their congregation , appearing also in their masters livery [ i mean , the surplice ] that all men may know to whom they belong , and whose servants they are . this is one great nuysance done by these men to the spirits of those who truly fear god. . they bow down their necks to the yoak of ceremonies , and yeeld that observance to the fopperies of men , which is due to the most weighty precepts of god. . there are few of them , who content themselves with the simple observation of these ceremonies , but think it their duty to take pitty on them , being so generally hated , opposed , and condemned , and to speak a good word for them now and then , and to justifie both the practice and imposition of them . . there are not many of those , that are least obnoxious amongst them , but will think it , either their duty , or their wisdom , or both , to steal an opportunity ( sometimes ) to speak honourably of their gracious lords and benefactors , to commend their function as sacred , and of divine institution , and as singularly necessary for the peace and good government of the church , &c. . who is there of them , but , be he never so concise and short in his prayer before his sermom , yet alloweth a large roomth for the mention of his reverend , if not right reverend fathers in god ; ( as if they suspected that god would not know that they meant them , unless they presented them in their pontificalibus before him ) yea , and giveth flattering and unbeseeming titles to other great persons also ? . they are the smallest number of them , who will not semel in anno ( at least ) teach ( in effect ) the importune doctrine of blind obedience to superiours , both ecclesiastical and civil : it is like , they will not teach this obedience under the term of , blind , because protestant writers have made it infamous amongst persons of this profession , by oft charging the doctrine of blind obedience , as antichristian , upon the jesuites . but when they fall upon hammering this nayl ( i mean of obedience and subjection to superiours ) they so sorge it , as that they leave no liberty or freedom of judgment , or conscience , to inferiours , to judge of the lawfulness , and unlawfulness of the superiours command ; but conclude those amongst transgressors , and persons worthy severe punishment , that refuse to conform themselves to their injunctions , though their judgments and consciences conclude them never so ( manifestly ) unlawful . and what is this , but ( in effect ) to preach and press the ungodly , yea , unmanly doctrine of blind obedience ? yea , some of them do not forbear to place the perfection , or highest strain of that mortification and self-denyal , which they preach , in that kind of blind obedience to superiours , which hath been mentioned . . they are not a few of those that are of best esteem in the said party of ministers , who will not find , or take occasion ( sometimes ) to vent themselves in unworthy and base reflections upon the power of godliness , and upon persons more tenderly conscientious than themselves , and who strain at the camels , which they swallow . . ( and lastly , ) there is hardly one of a thousand of them , that ( according to their duty ) will cry aloud , and lift up their voice like a trumpet , to shew their great lords and masters their great transgressions , in persecuting the servants of the living god , in suppressing their christian and just liberties , in thrusting their zealous and faithful teachers out of the sanctuary , in obtruding upon them dumb doggs ( or worse than dumb ) or greedy wolves , in their stead ; in exasperating the spirits of rulers against them , and representing them as persons dangerous to the state , and troublers of its peace ; in assenting unto , if not procuring the making of hard and cruel laws against them , ( with the like . ) these are part of the unhappy wayes and practices , by which even our best preachers of the episcopal character , are alwayes apt , and often wont , to make sad the spirits of holy and good men , when they hear them : so that though they may ( possibly ) hear several sermons from them , from none of which they shall actually suffer in any of these kinds ; yet they cannot at any time go to hear them with any reasonable security , but that some or other of this gall and vinegar will be given them to drink . this then is another consideration to take off our edge from hearing them . consideration ix . as for the generality , or far greater part of the body of that ministry , from which we endeavour to perswade good men to turn away , they are a company of sad souls , men , who ( according to the proverb ) animam habent pro sale ; they have souls serving only to preserve their bodies from putrifying : some of them profoundly ignorant , scarce understanding their rubrick , or how to finde out the psalmes and lessons appointed for the day in the bishops calender : others , drown'd in sensuality , desperately debauched , much fitter to be made priests to serve at the pagan altars of bacchus , and venus , than to minister the holy things of jesus christ : others possessed with a spirit of prophaness , which maketh them bold to take the name of god in vain , and to make frothy jests and conceits of things most sacred : others wolfishly covetous and cruel , rigorously exacting of their people the utmost farthing of wages , which the law alloweth , for the smallest pittance of work , or service , which the law tolerateth . all these have ( as it were ) given hostages to satan , to secure him that they will never make any hostile attempt upon him , nor disturb him in his possession of any soul under his power . now this retrimentitious party of the ministry we speak , are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fellow-members of the same body of ministers , with those , whose character was given in the former consideration , and to whom we here likewise gave the preheminence in worth , amongst and above all their fellows : so that those respects , and that honour , which we cast upon these in our attendance upon their ministry , redound ( in part at least ) unto the others also : and so by countenancing the worthiest and best , of this disordered order , we countenance and comfort the worst and vilest likewise ; for ( as the apostle saith ) if one member be honoured , all the members rejoyce with it , cor. . . [ viz. as being partakers of that honor which is done unto it : ] in like manner , when we confer the honour of our presence upon such of the episcopal clergy , who are least obnoxious , we encourage and rejoyce the heart , even of the refuse and tail of this clergy also , these being flesh of their flesh , and bone of their bone , and all of them in their calling to the ministry , descended from the loyns ( or hands rather ) of the same ghostly fathers , the bishops . now for christians to honour that ( though at a distance , and in a collateral way only ) which christ himself hath pronounced to be good for nothing , no , not so much as for the dunghil , but only to be cast out , and txodden under foot by men , ( mat. . . with luke . , , . ) must needs be judged a very great dis-service unto him , and of a most ungrateful resentment with him . consideration x. whereas the ordination of ministers , when regularly and duly performed , is of a very promising consequence unto their ministry , the blessing of god ( as it were of course ) following it ; the ordination of the prelatical clergy , being not only contrary to the laws established by christ , in the common-wealth of israel , for the government thereof , but also managed and transacted by men that are no friends of god , nor lovers of his saints , nor of the purity of his worship , nor of the power of godliness , is , in respect of the success of their ministry , much more threatning , than promising , god being no wayes like to give any testimony from heaven unto them , being sent forth into his work upon terms so highly dishonourable and displeasing to him ; for , the prayers , by which the minister to be ordained , is recommended unto the grace and blessing of god , in the work of the ministry , by those that are present , and assisting in the business , being ( upon the matter ) the all in all , of , or in , the transaction ( for laying on of hands is only a ceremony , and questioned by some whether necessary , yea , or fitting , to be used in these dayes ) and the sacrifice of the wicked being an abomination unto the lord , as the prayer of the upright is his delight , ( prov. . . ) we have but a quick-sand for a foundation of any hope , that ministers prelaticall ordained , are sent forth unto the great work of the gospel , with a blessing , and not rather under a curse . besides , suppose we ( for argument sake ) that our lord bishops , and their chaplains ( who are the great , if not the only doers , in the solemnities of their ordination ) were lovers of god indeed , and no wayes disaffected against persons , truly holy and conscientious ; yet the ministers ordained by them , not being to serve or minister unto them in the most important affairs of their souls , it is not like that their prayers for them , or for the blessing of god upon their labours in preaching , would be ( in any degree ) so effectually fervent , as the prayers , wherewith the ministers , who are by the particular churches of the saints chosen to serve them , in the high concernments of their eternal salvation , are , by them solemnly assembled , with prayer and fasting for the purpose , presented unto god in the day of their ordination . that charity is rate , which keepeth not her self warmer at home than abroad . consideration xi . many who at first intended nothing more in hearing the ministers we speak of , but their own christian edification and comfort , and nothing lesse than to become proselytes to their dead forms of imposed worship , or to comport with them in their detestable things ( ezek. . . i mean their fanatick ceremonies ) or to approve of their hierarchical mission into the vineyard of christ , &c. yet by a frequent and familiar converse with them in their ministry , have in time ( and some in a very short time ) been so transformed in their judgements & consciences , as to swallow all these camels without straining , and to make one spirit with them in all their antichristian principles and practices . the heat of that pleasure and contentment which we sometimes take in the commendable and worthy sayings or doings of men , proves a snare unto us to fall in with them in sayings and doings of a contrary import , and which are of a very dangerous , if not destructive consequence unto us : so that in this sense it is not only true , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , evil homilies , or discourses ( as the apostle expresses himself with the heathen poet , cor. . . ) but even 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , good and worthy communications , many times , occasionally , and from some kind of men , corrupt good manners . the unsound and rootten doctrines of the pharisees ( as of the sadduces also ) were ( it seems ) of a leavening nature , apt to spread , and to insinuate themselves into the minds , and judgements , and affections of men . our saviour himself declareth this unto us , partly by comparing them unto leaven , but more plainly by admonishing the people ; yea , his disciples themselves , over and over , to look to themselves that they were not ensnared with them : then jesus said unto them , take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees , &c. mat. . . see also mark . . now one main reason why their evil and unsound doctrines were so catching , and likely by little and little to gain in the approbations and consents of their hearers ( was in all probability ) their frequent teachings , and zealous pressings , of many wholesome and savory doctrines and truths , according to the tenour and true intent of moses's law : for as many an horse , that is unserviceable , and worth little , by reason of some grand defect that is not easily discerned , is yet bought and sold at a considerable rate , quod pulchri clunes , breve quod caput , ardua cervix . by reason of some features that are curiously commendable in them : in like manner many a mans ministry may be approved & swallowed , root and branch , head and tail , by the brokery and mediation of some choice sermons , or points of doctrine , managed and handled effectually , or however to the high contentment of the hearer , although this ministry taken in the whole body , or course of it , be not so well and safely calculated for the saving of the soul. i have heard of ( and , in in part , known ) some , to whom , when they first became hearers of the prelatical clergy , their imposed common-prayer , their lumber of ceremonies , their hierarchy , with all their implements and trinkets , &c. were hey , stabble and wood , yea , or rather , dung and filthiness ; who notwithstanding , by the droppings of the tongues of these men into their ears , became , after no long time neither , so bewitched in their judgments and consciences , that all these were conceited by them as silver , gold , and precious stones . good words are oft-times too hard for good meanings , and lead men , honestly disposed , into a snare : nor is there any method more commodious or promising unto men , whose design it is to work sober and good men out of a love and liking of some part of those truths , which at present they believe , then by giving them their fill of satisfaction and contentment in some others of them . consideration xii . although we be in some strait yet to combine with any corrupt interest or correspondency , for accommodation or help , or to fall in with men , who have not god amongst them , however they may be otherwise of a very promising aspect unto us , hath often , if not alwayes , been of dangerous consequence unto those , that have attempted and expected , the bettering of their condition in such a way . when amaziah , king of judah , judging himself unable to wage war against the children of mount seir , with his own strength , had hired an hundred thousand mighty men of valour out of israel , for an hundred talents of silver , there was sent unto him a man of god with this message ; o king , let not the army of israel go with thee ; for the lord is not with israel , &c. chron. . , . so the people of god seeking for help , first of the assyrians , and afterwards of the egyptians , even when they were in an afflicted and hard condition , got nothing by these applications but sorrow and shame : god threatned them by his prophet jeremy ; thou shalt also be ashamed of egypt , as thou wast ashamed of assyria , jer. . . the scripture is pregnant with this truth : see isa . . , . that the prelatical interest is eccentrical to the glory of god , to the cause and kingdom of jesus christ , runs in a channel by it self , a-part from , and in opposition to these , and consequently is carnal and corrupt , and obnoxious to the displeasure of god , needeth no anxious demonstration unto those , the eyes of whose minds are not bewitched and blinded with it ; however , somewhat hath been argued to the point already in these papers , and somewhat more may be added before we conclude : and the question ( if yet a question it must be ) hath been largely discussed , and learnedly decided by others . as for the late reviving of this interest amongst us , after it had lain sick , and languishing , ready to have given up the ghost for many years together ; it cannot be looked upon with a spiritually-discerning eye , but ( what is frequently observed in long and wasting sicknesses ) a lightning before death : and as the setting up of dagon the second time in his place , after he had once fallen upon his face to the earth , before the ark of god , occasioned his second downfall , by which he lost his head ( sam. . , . ) so , according to the course of divine providence , the lifting up of our bishops from the gates of death , is like to prepare the way to their second death , or fall , from whence there will be no redemption . now , the ministers of whom we speak all this while , being of the prelatical descent , are members , or appurtenances of this ( i mean the prelatical ) order , and have a great venture in the same bottom with their ghostly-fathers : so that suppose we should be somewhat scanted for soul-accomodations , or much straitned for want of spiritual provisions otherwise , yet to have recourse unto these men ( yea , be it unto the best of them ) in their ministry , for supplies in this kind , with an expectation that they should bless us , or befriend us in our need , is to comport with the unhallowed interest we speak of , and to seek help of such a generation or association of men , whom god ( as the scripture saith ) beholdeth a far off , taking no pleasure to be amongst them : and consequently , such an application of our selves for aid and relief , is like to turn to no better an account unto us , than a disappointment , if not a far worse inconvenience . consideration xiii . as far the greater number of the good people of god in this nation stand now perswaded in their judgments and consciences , touching the hearing of ministers ordained by a power ill-affected to jesus christ and his interest on earth , it is just matter of scandal and offence to the weaker sort of this people , and of sorrow and sadness of heart to many of them that are more spiritual , and knowing , to understand , or hear , that any of their christian brethren , formerly united unto them in the same mind and judgment against all the superstitious and antichristian doings amongst us , are ( frequently ) present in those assemblies , unto whom men sent unto them by the prelates onely , presume notwithstanding to speak in the name of god , bearing themselves as the embassadors of christ , lawfully commissioned by him for the service they perform . now the scripture oft speaks of scandalizing , in one kind or other , those that are weak in the faith , as of a very sinful and un - christian misdemeanor in those who are called christians , and of a provoking resentment with christ himself : but if thy brother be grieved with thy meat [ when as thy life and health may be preserved with such meats otherwise , which will not offend , or grieve him ] now walkest thou not charitably . destroy not him with thy meat [ that is , eat no such meat , the eating whereof by thee , may very possibly through the scandal given thereby , prove his destruction ] for whom christ dyed , rom. . . for meat destroy not the work of god. all things indeed are pure , but it is evil for that man that eateth with offence . it is good neither to eat flesh , nor to drink wine , nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth , or is offended , or made weak . hast thou faith ? have it to thy self before god. happy is he that condemneth not himself [ namely by scandalizing a weak brother ] in that thing which he alloweth [ as lawful for him to do ] rom. . , , . for if any man see thee which hast knowledge , sit at meat in the idols temple , shall not the conscience of him that is weak , be emboldned to eat those things that are offered to idols : and through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish , for whom christ dyed . but when ye sin so against the brethren , and wound their weak conscience , ye sin against christ , [ grieving and indangering those , who believe in him , and therefore are dear unto him ] cor. . , , . and whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me , it is better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck , and he were cast into the sea , mark . . see also matth. . . luke . , . the clear result of these , and other-like sayings of the holy ghost , is , that to scandalize , offend , or grieve any weak believer , yea though it be but by an undue exercise of our lawful liberty ( lawful , i mean , otherwise , ) is very unworthy the profession of the gospel , and an indignity offered unto jesus christ , sorely threatning him that shall offer it , without repentance . it is true , where there is any obligation upon men by way of precept , or duty , to do that , at which a weak christian is offended , here is no scandal , or offence given , but onely taken ; and if any man be offended in this case , he must bear the burthen of his ignorance himself . god is to be obeyed , though the whole world should be offended at it . but that it should be incumbent or necessary , by any precept or command from god , to hear ( at least ordinarily , and from day to day ) ministers of a lordly creation , or prelatical tincture , never yet ( i suppose ) came within the verge of any mans thoughts , unlesse ( haply ) of some episcopally addicted above their fellows : nay , the practise hath not found ( that i can find or hear of , ) any competent defender of so much as the lawfulness of it , to this day . therefore if it should be given ( by way of charity ) unto those , that have made bold to take the liberty of hearing the ministers we wot of , that this their practice , simply , and in it self considered , is lawful ; yet in the case of so much scandal and offence , as it gives to many thousands of their weak brethren in the nation , it becomes in them un - christian and unlawful ; yea , and it is the more un - christian and unworthy , in as much as it further causeth much sadness and grief of heart , even unto those that are of more understanding ; because , besides the scandal given by it unto the weak , they judge it a practice altogether , and in it self , unwarrantable , as being derogatory unto the royalities of jesus christ , as sole king , and law-giver unto his church ; of which , as somewhat formerly , so a little more may be said hereafter . consideration xiv . the practice lately mentioned , and hitherto disswaded , as it is offensive to all good christians , who either suspect , or conclude , the unlawfulness of it , and in this respect is a breach of the law of that tender love , which we owe unto them ; so is it of no good consistence , no not with that love , which we stand bound to shew even to those persons themselves , whom we hear in such a way , although they be men , who without any order from christ , receive ordinations and commissions to preach , from his adversaries ; ( his adversaries , at least in their claim and exercise of a co-ordinate power with his , in and over his churches , which is a broad incroachment upon the most sacred and high prerogative of the king of kings , and lord of lords ) but though this compliance in the ministers we speak of , with the said adversaries of christ , be adjudged by us ( and this according to the truth ) a sin very enormous , and of sad consequence to the saints , and gospel ; yet we , who stand charged by our great lord and master to love our enemies , ought not to strengthen the hand , or to harden the heart of these men in their evil way , or to do any thing which is likely to be a snare unto them , to put the good day of repentance ( and consequently salvation ) far from them , but rather unfeignedly to endeavour with the best of our understandings , to convert them from the error of their way , and to save their soul . now , as the apostle paul ( as we formerly observed ) prescribeth the withdrawing of our selves from a brother that walketh inordinately , as a christian and proper means to make him ashamed of his sinful course , ( thess . . . & . ) and so to move him to abandon and forsake it ; so on the contrary , to give the right hand of fellowship unto , or to frequent the company of a person engaged in any sinful way ( especially when , or whilst , he is actually walking in this way ) must needs be a direct means of encouragement unto him to persist in his way , and to hide repentance from his eyes : therefore they who customarily wait at the door 〈◊〉 the lips of an ill-procured ministry , and frequent the assemblies where such a ministry is exercised , if they be persons of any note for the knowledge and fear of god , or for a christian and worthy conversation , cannot but stand in his light , who officiates unto them in the way of this ministry , so that he cannot see the error and danger of his way . for who is like to suspect ( much less to be throughly convinced ) that such a practice or course , is evil , ( especially being likewise commodious to the flesh ) which receiveth such a weighty testimony that it is lawful and good , as the approbation of persons of great esteem both for light and heat , in matters appertaining unto god , and this testified by their constant , at least frequent correspondings with it ? consideration xv. yea , such of the saints and servants of god , being in any degree considerable in their generation , who by the practice so frequently put to rebuke in these papers , shall give countenance , credit , and contentment to the present generation of a prelatical clergy , hereby become generative of a succession of birds of the same feather , and threaten christians yet unborn , that they also shall be served with no better then a spurious & illegitimate ministry . for when those young ones , who intend to serve at the altar , and separate themselves for the office , and work of the ministry , shall see and understand , that men sent forth into the christian world by prelatical order and authority , find favour and acceptance in the eyes of good and discerning christians , as well as those that are set over the churches of the saints by the holy ghost himself , how shall not their consciences be hereby emboldned to accept , without scruple , of a prelatical mission , and through the temptation , strongly to imagine , when they clim'd up , and got in at the window , that they came in by the right door ? yea , upon the same account , how shall not the prelates themselves , though ( at present ) abundantly satisfied ( in their affections , at least ) touching , not the lawfulness onely , but even the necessity of their needless ( though not harmless ) office and function in the church , be made two-fold more the sons of confidence , that they are the stars of the first magnitude in the hand of christ , and that the axle-tree of the universal church turns upon their shoulders ? but somewhat to this effect in a former consideration . consideration xvi . the holy ghost taketh notice that such teachers , unto whom the world ( that is , carnal and worldly persons , professing christianity ) are wont to resort in the exercise of their ministry , taking pleasure and contentment therein , are no true ministers of christ ; insinuating withal , that sincere christians , and persons spiritually-minded , more generally ( at least ) decline them , and deny them their presence at their teachings . the beloved apostle john , speaking of false teachers , giveth these three characters of them ( amongst some others ) first , that they are of the world ( that is , members of the fraternity , or brother-hood , of worldly men ; or lovers of this present world : ) secondly , that they speak of the world ; or , ( as it might well , and more significantly , i conceive , be translated ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , out of the world : meaning , that they are wont first to make enquiry into the world about them , and to inform themselves what humours and practices , what principles , notions , and opinions , are most predominant , and of best resentment , amongst both the great men of the world , and the generality likewise of the people ( although these commonly are at too good an agreement in such matters ; ) and again , what doctrines and tenents will be well enough born and endured , by both , without any disgust of him that shall teach them ; and on the contrary , what are like either to bring him into trouble , or to cast him out of favour , &c. and when they have satisfied themselves , and well understood the world in these particulars , they model and mould the tenour of their ministry and preaching accordingly , waving those truths , be they never so importantly necessary to be made known , the preaching or owning of which , they understand is like to shake and weaken ( if not wholly to annihilate or destroy ) their interest in the world ; and withall , cunningly wresting and perverting the word of god in such passages , which truly understood , rise up with great evidence and power against those doctrines , by which they oblige and insure the world unto them . upon some such account as this , they are , or may be , said to speak 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of , or out of , the world : this is a second character of them . thirdly , the third ( and last ) is , that the world heareth them ; meaning , that carnal and earthly-minded professors of the gospel ( for professors , either of judaism , or of paganism , cannot be here meant ) resort unto their ministry , are their setled and accustomed hearers , and well apaid and satisfied with their teachings , joh. . . whereunto the apostle immediately subjoyns ; we are of god ; he that knoweth god , heareth us ; [ that is , relisheth our ministry , and with diligence and delight , attendeth on it ] he that is not of god , heareth not us , &c. clearly implying , that such teachers , unto whose ministry carnal professors and loose christians , ordinarily and in great numbers are wont to gather themselves , sitting from time to time with contentment and satisfaction under it , are not teachers of that kind , or of that spirit , with whose ministry spiritual and sound christians can long rest satisfied , or care to attend upon . these are those strangers , whom christ saith his sheep will not follow , but will flee from them , because they know not their voice , john . . therefore as the apostle paul tells the corinthians , that he could not speak unto them , as unto spiritual , but as unto carnal , because they walked in several carnal practices ( cor. . , . ) so may we without any breach , either of charity or truth , look upon those christians , as savouring the things which be of men , more than the things which be of god , who addict themselves to such a ministry , which is constantly frequented , countenanced , approved , applauded , and delighted in , by such professors of christianity , who by their ignorance , prophaness , and all manner of debauchery in their lives and conversations , blaspheme their holy profession , and stain the glory of the ever-blessed gospel of god. and is not this the undeniable and appropriate character of the prelatical ministry ? do not the dregs and refuse of the nation , generally , and in all places , gather themselves unto it , and rejoyce over it , being as well apaied with it , as micah was with his idolatrous priest made of a silly wandring levite ? now know i ( saith he ) the lord will do me good , seeing i have a levite to my priest , judg. . . yea , this ministry seems to be , both intended by the founders of it ( the prelates ) and also form'd and managed by the inferiour clergy , who exercise it , for the gratification of such persons , and this rather , by perswading them that they are truly religious , and in favour with god already , than by making them so indeed . therefore they who being ( not in their own eyes only , but even in the judgement of discerning and found christians ) living members of the houshold of faith , shall notwithstanding relish and savour a ministry calculated for the world , and accepted by it accordingly ; hereby give testimony against themselves , that as yet they retain too much of the spirit of this world , to be fill'd , as they ought , with the spirit of god , and of the world which is to come . consideration xvii . neither may it be unworthy our consideration in the case before us , that we read in the scriptures , that unbelievers and persons destitute of the saving knowledge of god , did sometime come into the religious assemblies of the saints , to partake of their ministry , and were herein blameless : cor. . , , , &c. but do not any where find that believers were wont to fall into the assemblies of idolaters or unbelievers , to receive instruction amongst them , or from their priests , in things appertaining unto god and his worship . yea , the apostle paul adjudgeth it a practice altogether inconsistent with true christianity , to eat and drink with false worshippers at their idolatrous feasts , although it were done to escape persecution , cor. . from ver . . to the end of ver . . and the sacred author of the epistle to the believing hebrews , admonisheth and exhorteth them , thus ; and let us consider one another , to provoke unto love , and to good works ; not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , &c. heb. . , . he admonisheth believers to assemble with believers , and not to withdraw themselves from these , especially not to joyn or mingle themselves in the assemblies of idolaters or unbelievers , as some degenerating spirits amongst them ( it seems ) did , out of fear of suffering persecution . for that these christianiz'd hebrews were in a sore storm of persecution when this epistle was written to them . and consequently , when they were charged not to forsake the assembling of themselves together , is evident from many passages in it : yea it is more generally conceived by the best expositors , that the principal intent and scope of the epistle was to support and comfort the hebrews under thieir great afflictions for the gospel , and to encourage them unto constancy and perseverance in their profession of it unto the end . so that feare of persecution is no christian ground for those that desire to approve themselves faithful unto jesus christ , and the gospel , to turn renegadoes from the holy assemblies of the saints , in which , and over which , they formerly rejoyced , and to run to the tumultuous and disorderly conventions of carnal and prophane persons , as unto cities of refuge , hoping in these dark thickets to find covert and shelter from those stormes and tempests , which threaten those , who know god better , and feare him more , then to shrink from him for feare of men . and great reason there is , why saints , who have been nourished with the sincere milk of the ghospel , bred , and brought up ( as christians ) amongst their ( spiritual ) peers , in their holy assemblies , should not dare to quit these schools of light and holiness , to become proselytes to the unhallowed and rude synagogues of a politique and worldly constitution ; because they seldome , or never , change their quarters upon these terms , but they doe it to their certain damage and great loss in their spiritual estates , if not to the loss of their immortal crowns , themselves in the end . for when they have for any space of time , been influenced , and seasoned , by the prelatical ministry , which still superintends these congregations , experience sheweth that they are changed , not from glory to glory , as by the spirit of the lord , but from glory to shame ( i mean , from a christian and humble frame and temper , unto that which is worldly , sowre and supercilious ) as by the spirit of the world , working effectually ( for the most part ) in the children of a prelatical ordination . and as country huswives observe that when any of their pulleyn , or hens have been trodden by crowes , upon this unnatural copulation , they lose their native shapes , become deformed , and seldom or never thrive , or recover after it : in like manner , when men and women , who under a christian education in the congregation of the saints , were known to have been upright-hearted towards god , and good men , zealously addicted to the purity of gods worship , haters of all superstition , and flesh-devised ceremonies brought into this worship , lovers of the saiuts , asserters of their liberties , promoters of their comforts , holy , humble , harmless , &c. when ( i say ) they shall forsake these assemblies , and go in to a prelatical ministry , and converse familiarly with it , after a short time they are sound to degenerate , and grow out of their kind , savouring of quite another spirit ; now they become learned pleaders for baal , their consciences are enlarged to swallow ceremonies of all sorts in the worship of god , as smoothly , and with as little regret , as fishes drink water ; to approve of the hierarchy in their usurpations , oppressions , and vexatious practises against the saints , to cry up that idol of jealousie [ the common-prayer-book ] in disparagement of the heavenly gift of prayer in the true ministers of christ , as those idolatrous wretches ( act. . . ) cryed out ( in a wrothful opposition to paul's doctrine concerning the true worship of the true god ) great is diana of the ephesians ; they become alienated in their affections towards the saints , chusing for their bosome converse , persons whom they judge most able , and willing withal , to justifie them in their apostacy , and to maintain the prelatical cause , from the one end to the other , with greatest zeal and dexterity ; they become self-willed , self-conceited , boasting of their knowledge , imputing it to the weakness and ignorance of all others , that they do not sacrifice at the same altars with them , or that they scruple , question , or condemn any thing , which they allow and practise . in a word , these crow-trodden professors , ( let the metaphor offend no man ) by offering and suffering , their judgments and consciences to be ridden by a prelatical clergy , become in time , not only transform'd into an uncouth , strange , and hard favour'd kind of christian , much unlike unto themselves , when , and whilest they consorted with the sons and daughters of god , and drank of the same waters of life with them ; but ( for the most part ) so intoxicated also , besotted , and bewitched with their new wine , that they seldom , or never , recover that lovely image of god , wherein they formerly appeared , to the comfort and joy of many a precious soul : for that which solomon saith concerning the woman , which forsaketh the guide of her youth , and forgetteth the covenant of her god ; namely , that none that go unto her return again , prov. . , . may be said of those that turn aside to a babylonish ministry : god in judgment , poureth out upon them the spirit of deep sleep , and closeth their eyes ( esa . . . ) so that they hardly ever awake out of the snare until they dye . consideration xviii . nor falleth it much short of a demonstration of the evil , or sinfulness , of that way , from which , by many arguments , we have disswaded already ; that so much secular violence hath been , and still is imployed to compel and force all men into it . how did the prelates heretofore , before the great mountain of their power and glory was removed by the late king and parliament , turn every stone of tyranny , cruelty and oppression , to constrain both men and women to keep their parish churches ? what troups of summoners and apparitors were levied up and down the nation , to hunt out , and pursue , like blood-hounds , all , both male and female , bond and free , whose judgements were too full of light , & their consciences of goodness , to drink of the waters of those polluted cisterns , which they had hewn out , chusing rather ( some of them ) to worship god chastly and purely , even with two or three gathered together in the name of christ ; amongst whom he hath promised his presence ( mat. . . ) although in such an attempt as this they exposed themselves to the danger of being , with daniel , cast into the lyons den ( i mean of being brought into their high commission , or some of their antichristian consistories ) many ( i say ) chusing this , rather than without any such danger , to communicate with the parish assemblies , either in their adultrous worship or idol ministry : and of late , since their deadly wound was ( almost ) healed , how have they , by their sorceries , insinuated and prevailed with the legislative powers of the nation , only to legitimate ministers of their spurious brood and conformity , and to disinherit all others of their functions , as if they were basely descended , because they do not call them , fathers ; and not only this , but by several penalties also to restrain all assemblings of men for the worship of god , and their christian edification , excepting only in consort with such congregations , where they shall be necessitated to hear such teachers only , who bring their office of teaching from under their hands ? thus doth the spirit of prelacy , in conjunction with an arm of flesh , & with the powers of this world ( instead of those of the world to come ) labour in the very fire , to bring the whole trade of hearing to the shops of their journey-men , be their wares never so braided , sleight , or deceitful : and this verifieth the saying , superbia appetitum habet unitatis & omnipotentiae ; i. e. the pride of man greatly affecteth unity , and omnipotency . now it can hardly be shewed , that ever the real interest of the gospel , or true christianity , endeavoured their advancement or promotion in the world , by threatning or inflicting secular punishments , as fines , confiscations , imprisonments , banishments , deaths , or the like , upon those who refused to comply with them ; but upon their service , and for their gaining upon the world , rather offered and exposed their own proselytes and friends , upon all occasions , to the suffering of these things from the world : whereas ( on the contrary ) it is well known that idolatry , superstition , and false worships ( almost in every kind ) in all ages , for the enlargement of their quarters , and for encreasing the number of their proselytes , have , according to their strength , warred after the flesh ( in the apostles phrase ) and pleaded their cause with fire and sword , and all manner of outward severities , against those that refused compliance with them . by how authoritative , and bloody an act of uniformity , did king nebuchadnezzar endeavour a universal concurrence of all within his vast dominions , to joyn with him in his idolatrous worship of the golden image which he had set up ? then ( all his princes , and great officers of state , being summoned together , and present ) an herald cryed aloud , to you it is commanded , o people , nations and languages , that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet — ye fall down and worship the golden image , which nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up . and whoso falleth not down , and worshippeth , shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace , dan. . , , . and when only three persons in his dominions , were accused as nonconformists to this his decree , with what fierceness of indignation doth he proceed against them ? first , in his rage and fury he commanded to bring them before him : being come , he himself examined them , or rather expostulated with them about the crime laid to their charge , as if it had been an high affront put upon him , or an undervaluing of his majesty and power . is it true , o shadrach , meshach , and abeduego ? do ye not serve my gods , nor worship the golden image which i have set up ? even as our prelates , and great men of their inspiration , count it an insufferable disparagement and reproach unto them , when persons of meaner rank in the world , judge it not safe , or well-pleasing unto god , to worship him after the same mode with them , as with the same ceremonies , the same gestures or postures of body , in the same places and assemblies ( the same , i mean , in nature or kind ) and especially with the same liturgies and forms of prayer , when they shall authoritatively , solemnly , and with a borrowed visor of gravity and devotion , impose all this upon them . when the king having re-minded the said three servants of god , of the tenour of his decree , concerning the worshipping of his golden image , and threatned them with the heavy doom therein expressed , in case they should persist in their nonconformity ; after all this , understood that they nevertheless , without any demurre in the case , stood fast and firm in their resolution , not to comport with his decree , in a great fury he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than ordinary , and that the strongest men in his army should bind these three persons , and cast them into it , ver . , , . &c. we may in this story , as in a glass , behold the spirit of idolatry and superstition , acting , like it self , in rage and blood , to compel , through dread and terrour of outward sufferings , an universal subjection of all persons , to all the prescripts and commands of it . in like manner , the beast that had two horns like a lamb , but spake as a dragon [ that is , that professeth the humility and meekness of christ , the lamb of god , but speaketh in his bulls , and excommunications of kings and princes , and whole nations , like the great red dragon , the devil , who boasteth of a power , delivered and given unto him , to dispose of all the kingdoms of the world as he pleased , luke . . ] this beast ( i say ) according to that heavenly vision , wherein his practices and doings were long since revealed by christ unto his beloved disciple ( john ) causeth all , both small and great , rich and poor , free and bond , to receive [ from him , or by his command ] a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads : and that no man might buy , or sell , [ and consequently , have any means of livelyhood , or subsistance , as far as he could hinder it ] save he that had the mark , or the name of the beast [ meaning his own ] or the number of his name ( rev. . , . ) that is ( in the general ; for we must not , at present , enquire after the particulars ) save only such , who should give testimony , by one means or other , that they owned his authority , and submitted their consciences to his faith and religion . and vers . . it is said , that by his power he gave life [ or spirit : the word is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] unto the image of the beast [ that is , to his own image ; meaning , that what by means of his temporal , and what by means of his spiritual power , which he should get in the world , he would so animate and inspire his image ; that is , the systeme , or aggregate body , of his ecclesiastical consistories , or courts of judicature in all places , which in their bloody proceedings and actings against the true worship and worshippers of god ; resemble his genius and frame of spirit , and may therefore be termed his image ] 〈◊〉 this body , or image of his : saith john , he had power to give life , that it should both speak , and cause [ that is , so speak , as to cause ] that as many as would not worship the image of the beast , [ that is , reverentially own and acknowledge this his jurisdiction and power , as given unto him by god ] should be killed . the other interpretation of this passage given by some , maketh the result of it the same in reference to our present purpose : and the practices of the papal judicatures for many ages past , in all places and nations under heaven , where the authority and faith of the triple crown prevailed , give a pregnant and loud testimony to the truth contained in the scriptures now cited ; yea , and afford a clear light for the right understanding of them . it were no hard matter to exemplifie and confirm the obsrvation now before us , by many more instances , as well from the scripture-records themselves , as from histories of the best credit otherwise . so that it is a shrewd presumption , that a co-assembling with parish-congregations for the worship of god , and the ordinary or constant hearing of a prelatical priesthood , have nothing of god in them , make not for edification in faith and love , in that they are so rigorously exacted , and under such severe penalties imposed upon all men by the greatness of this world , this being the accustomed , known , and appropriate method of idolatry , superstition , and humane-inventions , to maintain and propagate themselves , and their interest , in the world : nor are they that ride upon the high places of the earth , wont to be so zealously addicted or through-hearted , to promote the real concernments of heaven , where they have to do . the reason why christ shall not deliver up the kingdom , which at present he administreth , unto god the father , until he hath put down all rule , and all authority and power , is declared thus : for he must reign , till he hath put all enemies under his feet , cor. . , . clearly implying that persons of high interest in the world , are seldom in any other sence , friends to the kingdom of christ , but only by opposing it ; their enmity and opposition to him [ in his saints and worship ] ministreth an occasion unto him , according to the projecture of the wisdom and counsel of god , to continue this kingdom so much the longer in his hand ; namely , until , in a most equitable and fair process of justice and judgment , and after much patience , and a large space given for repentance , he shall abolish for ever their places of dignity and power from off the earth . consideration xix . when god hath vouchsafed a sufficiency of 〈◊〉 , and these unquestionably lawful , though not so rank of flesh , or so highly promising ( upon such an account ) as some others , for the attaining of any , good and desirable end ; as well a declining and forsaking of these means , ( whether out of diffidence of the sufficiency of them for the end desired , or upon any other reason whatsoever ) to espouse others that are more ( carnally ) flattering , and pretending to more strength and efficacy , but want the feal of divine approbation upon them ; as the associating of means of this latter kind with those of the former , hoping by such a conjunction as this , to pursue our desires with less danger of a defeat , or disappointment ; i say , both the one and the other of these projections and practices have still been displeasing unto god , and of sad consequence unto those , that have been no better advised than to make tryal of them . examples of the truth of this observation the scriptures afford many . when king ahaz would not rest satisfied with the strength of his own kingdom , and men , by whom god had promised him protection & deliverance from the two kings his neighbours , who combined in war against him , but judged it better policy to call in the king of assyria to his assistance , contrary to the mind of god made known unto him by the prophet , in these words , take heed , and be quiet [ that is , trouble not thy self in seeking after forreign help , from one place or other : it is much the same expression , and upon a like occasion , which we find , isa . . . their strength , saith god , is to sit still ; meaning to depend upon him in the use of such means for their protection and safety , as they had at home , or he should direct them unto , and not to weary themselves , or waste their treasures , by sending abroad to court strange princes for their aid ] fear not , neither be faint-hearted , for the two tails of these smoaking fire-brands , &c. this king ( i say ) by this prudential course ( as he supposed ) for the preservation of himself and his kingdom , provoked the just severity of god to the great misery of both , isa . . . compared with vers . , . &c. and chron. . vers . , , . for brevity sake , and partly because of the affinity with the subject matter of the th consideration preceding , hath with the argument of this in hand , and partly because the observations asserted for truths both in the one , and the other , are so agreeable to the wisdom and righteousness of god , as the great judge of all the earth , we shall forbear to argue any more texts of scripture upon the service of what hath been laid down as the strength of our present consideration , although there be very many more , which both in face and in heart , carry the substance and effect hereof , as ( by name ) isa . . , , . - . , , , , . chron. . , , . jer. . , . ezek. . , , . ( with several others ) i shall onely instance the case of those judaizing christians in the times of the apostles , who to make all sure ( as they thought ) for their justification before god , would needs joyn the righteousness or works of the law , and more especially circumcision , with the belief of the gospel , or faith in christ for the obtaining of it . but through a carnal diffidence of the sufficiency of that way and means , which god hath sanctified for their justification , whilst they went about to supply the imaginary defect hereof with an additional means suggested by their own wisdom ( or folly rather ) unto them , they miserably miscarried in that so important a design , meeting with condemnation , instead of justification , from the hand of god ; according to what the great apostle plainly declared unto some of them : behold , -paul say unto you , that if ye be circumcised [ namely with an opinion of obtaining justification , either in whole , or in part , by it ] christ shall profit you nothing . and again : christ is become of no effect unto you , whosoever of you are justified [ that is , expect , or hope to be justified ] by the law , ye are fallen from grace , gal. . , . let us now bind the present consideration , with what hath been proposed and argued in it , fast and close to our present purpose . first , certain it is that god hath provided , yet and at all times , or at least , ordinarily , even in times most threatning the sincere profession of the gospel , affordeth unto his saints , means both unquestionably lawful , and unquestionably sufficient , ( if the scripture may be judge in the case ) through his accustomed grace and blessing , for their edification , comfort , and salvation . secondly , it is no less certain , that neither is a prelatical ministry , nor an attendance hereon , any means , authorized or approved by god , for the promoting or effecting of these ends . from hence , according to the plain tenour of the premises laid down in this consideration , it roundly follows , that either to decline and forsake the means vouchsafed unto us by god for our edification and salvation , to imbrace others , or out of a conceit or pretence of an insufficiency , or defectiveness in these means , for those ends to joyn others with them , which he hath not authorized , as ( by name ) the attendance upon a prelatical ministry ( however specious or highly promising this means may be in our eye ) is a policy or course , much more like to endammage and hinder us in those great concernments of our souls , than any wayes to bless us in promoting them ; as it is said of tilgath philnezer king of assyria , of whom ahaz king of judah had desired aid against his enemies , that when he came unto him , he distressed him , but strengthned him not : yea , it is added the second time , as a matter worth the minding , that he helped him not , chron , , , . now that god affordeth unto his people sufficient means at all times for their spiritual edification and salvation , without the help of a prelatical ministry , might be proved at large from the scriptures , if the case were doubtful enough to require it . but the more degrees of visibility there are in the object , the fewer degrees of light will serve the visive faculty to discover it . first , the scriptures themselves , diligently read , and with a good and honest heart searched into , are able to make us wise unto salvation , tim. . . and now , brethren , i commend you to god , and to the word of his grace , which is able to build you up , and to give you an inheritance amongst all them which are sanctified , acts . . but these [ things ] are written that ye might believe that jesus is the christ , the son of god , and that believing ye might have life through his name , john . . these places also well understood , speak ( with many others ) the same thing . luke , , . psal . . , , &c. pet. . . john . . rom. . . heb. . . secondly , if any shall pretend , that the scriptures , at least in many places , are obscure , and hard to be understood aright without a learned interpreter ; the answer is at hand : . the great variety of learned and profitable expositions on all parts of the scripture , wherewith the good providence of god hath inriched this nation in their native tongue , in these our dayes , render such a pretence as this , in reference to the people of god amongst us , as light as vanity it self : nor is it like that the present ministry founded upon the apocryphal order of prelacy , should be more canonical or orthodox , in giving out the mind of god in the scriptures , than they . not to mention the like variety of elaborate and solid discourses , ( well nigh ) upon all particular subjects , or heads of matter relating to christian religion . . it is a generally-acknowledged truth , that in all things simply necessary unto salvation , the scriptures are plain , and the sence of them obvious to every ordinary understanding . . ( and lastly , for this ) the judgments and understandings of many , if not of most christians , have in all ages been led aside from the mind of god in the scriptures , ( and this in things of very material consequence ) by the false lights of such their teachers , who were in great esteem for parts of learning , and knowledge in the scriptures ; in whom hath been verified that of the prophet : o my people , they which lead thee , cause thee to erre ; they swallow ( for so the original ) the way of thy paths [ meaning , that they do not stand much to consider what they teach thee , either to beleive , or practise ] isa . . . — . . thirdly , the saints are able to build up one another in faith , and love : yea and are exhortted , or commanded , by god so to do : but ye beloved , building up your selves on [ or , in ] your most holy faith , praying in the holy ghost ; keep your selves in the love of god , looking for the mercy of our lord , &c. jude , . wherefore comfort your selves together , and edifie one another , even as ye also do , thes . . . see also eph. . . col. . . rom. . . heb. . , . jam. . , . fourthly , even the smallest number of them , two , or three , meeting together upon such terms as they may at any time , and sometimes ( at least ) ought , may have the presence of christ amongst them as oft as they desire ; and consequently , need not be in any danger of miscarrying in their important design of salvation : for where two , or three ( saith christ ) are gathered together in my name [ that is , either out of conscience of my command in that behalf ; or rather , out of any real trust , or hope , that they may have in god through me ] there am i in the midst of them [ meaning to bless them , and cause them to prosper in any holy business they shall meet about , the presence of god , or his being with , or amongst , any of his creatures , still importing such a thing , gen. . , , . exod. . . josh . . . mat. . . deut. . . josh . . . and elsewhere , very often ] mat. . now so small a number of godly persons , as two , or three , may , with a little prudence and caution , even in the hardest , and worst of times , meet together in the name of christ , without much danger from their enemies . if christ had said , where five , or six , are gathered together in my name , there , &c. his presence amongst his saints must have been sought for by them at their greater péril , and with more obnoxiousnesse ( as it seems ) to the laws of men . so then the four means now mentioned ( to which might be added , if need were , others more of a like character , as prayer , meditation , &c. ) together with the use of them ; are . authorized by the broad seal of heaven , being confessedly on all hands approved by god : and . ( as hath been now shewed by the cleer light of divine revelation ) are sufficient by his ordinary blessing upon them , to build up the precious souls of the saints in faith and love unto salvation , at least when the great benefit and blessing of a christian and worthy ministry shall , by his providence , either operative , or permissive , be denyed unto them . but secondly , concerning a prelatical ministry , it is terrae filia , a daughter of the earth , being the product , or fruit , of one kind of those tares , which the enemy took his opportunity to sow in the field of god , whilst men slept , ( mat. . . ) and hath no communion with that divine politie of church-government , which the gospel holdeth forth , and commendeth unto the christian world ; nor hath it been fed , or nourished , with the sincere milk , but with the blood of the scriptures ; whose genuine sence in all places arrested at the suit of it , hath been sacrificed upon the service of so mischievous an idol . and inasmuch as it came not down from heaven , it is not like , according to the course of gods standing providence observed in the present consideration , to help any of his sons or daughters thither , but rather to obstruct and hinder them in their way : especially it being withal considered , that they are otherwise provided of means sufficient , both for their present comfort , and future salvation in due time ; and then such , upon which the light of god's approbation shineth clear , yea , and which , as he hath prescribed them to use , so hath he promised to bless with the attainment of their end . consideration xx. when any great storm or tempest of persecution is raised against the sincere profession of the gospel ; and whilst it is incumbent hereon , so that the saints cannot , with any liberty or freedom , meet openly in their holy assemblies for the worship of god , and their christian edification , but if they shall attempt it , they must do it at their peril , either of loss of their liberties by imprisonment , or of their estates by fines or confiscations , or of their country hy banishment , or of their lives by death : under these & such like exigencies , christ is wont secretly to direct his faithful ones unto more private opportunities , for their spiritual repast , and religious employments , that so they may be somewhat more out of the way of their enemies rage , and serve their god with the less fear of men : yet he is not wont to incline them , or to put it into their hearts to disband themselves , or break up their respective companies , and to become as sheep scattered , every one feeding a-part by himself , and from all his fellows , but to assemble and keep together in such number as they shall find willing to accept of such opportunities , and judge convenient in point of safety , to assemble together . yea , it is the genius and property of a soul devoted in love and loyalty unto christ , earnestly by prayer to seek directions from him in such hard seasons as we now speak of , whither to repair for its spiritual accommodations , and for his presence amongst his saints . tell me ( o thou , whom my soul loveth , saith the religiously ingaged soul , unto christ , cant. . . ) where thou feedest , where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon [ that is , vouchsafe to direct me how and where i may partake of that soul-nourishment , and those spiritual refreshments , wherewith thou art wont to support and comfort thy saints and people in their holy meetings at noon ; that is , in the heat of persecution , as the best interpreters do expound it . ] from hence these two things are observable . . that christ is not wont to feed his sheep in times of persecution , where he usually feedeth them in dayes of liberty and peace : if this were so , there had been no occasion for the religious soul to have desired of him to know , where he fed his sheep at noon ( in the sence given ) she knew well enough where he fed them in the cool and refreshing times of the day , as evening and morning ; as , viz. in open places , where every man might know & come into their assemblies ; but in the heat and scorching time of the day , at noon , he still withdrew them into some more shady and retired place , where the danger or troublesomeness of the heat might not interrupt them , whilest he should be feeding them . . it is further observable from the same words , that the soul-prudently christian , and throughly apprehensive of her spiritual concernments , is not wont to rest satisfied with her closest communion with christ , or with his giving his loves unto her in private , but besides , and beyond this , longeth after those communications of himself , wherewith he is wont to entertain his friends ( his saints i mean ) when they gather themselves in any number unto him ; especially in times dangerous , and threatning unto those that shall thus assemble , his heart in these times being ( usually ) more enlarged , and his mouth wider opened , unto them , than ordinary ; even as some men count it generous to feast their friends more sumptuously in the time of lent , than at other seasons . the soul which made the request unto christ now opened , in the latter part of the verse giveth , this reason of it ; for why should i be as one that turneth aside [ or rather , as the former translation , with others , read it , to , or unto ] the flocks of thy companions . by the flocks of christ's companions , are meant ( as some of the best expositors that i have met with understand the words ) the congregations or assemblies relating to , and depending on such pastors who make themselves christs companions , or equals , by instituting new formes of divine worship , as well as he a others , not much differing from the former , by the companions of christ here , understand forreign or strange shepherds , unrelated unto christ , and having no communion with him , but only in the appearance and appellation of a shepherd b . so that the reason why the religious soul desireth of christ to be directed unto his feedings in times of persecution and danger , is , lest she might otherwise be tempted , and through weakness yeeld to fall in with such assemblies , which have ministers or shepherds only so called , set over them , by whom she know that he took no pleasure to feed any of his sheep . but that christ ( as hath been said ) in tempestuous and foul weather , ( when the spirit of the world rageth high against church-meetings ) is not wont to feed his sheep in the champion , or open fields , where all men use to come , but to lead them into by-places , or solitudes , into inclosed grounds , narrow lanes of a long time dis-used , or un-occupied , under hedg-rows , or the like , and to feed them here ; the scriptures inform us elsewhere . when the woman that brought forth the man-child , was persecuted by the dragon , there were given unto her two wings of a great eagle , that she might fly into the wilderness , into her place , prepared for her of god , that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred , and threescore dayes [ the whole time of her persecution ] rev. . . with , & . therefore the woman that brought forth the man-child ( that is , the successive body of saints , or true believers ) during the times or reign of the beast , is not spiritually fed and nourished in such assemblies or congregations which are publickly authorized , countenanced , or approved by the beast , or by the world , which goeth wondring after him ( rev. . . ) but in those which are retired , solitary and private , and which neither of them can well brook or bear , but that god hideth them . the meetings of christians for the exercise of their religion , being hateful unto the jews , and which they ( it seems ) would not have tolerated amongst them , had they had knowledge of them , without doing mischief , in one kind or other , to those that thereby should have provoked them : the apostles themselves , by the guidance of the spirit of god ( for they were not , doubtless , led unto it by the wisdom of the flesh ) the better to secure themselves from their rage when they assembled , . made choice of a private house to meet in . . of a private time , the evening , yea , some what late in the evening ( as some collect from passages recorded , luke . . to vers . . ) . of as much privacy in that private house , as they could well devise ; for the doors of the room where they were , were shut : and in this posture of privacy , they did enjoy the blessed presence of christ . then the same day at evening , being the first day of the week , when the doors were shut , where the disciples were assembled for fear of the jews , came jesus , and stood in the midst , and saith unto them , peace be unto you , john . . we reade of another meeting of christians for the worship of god , under all the same circumstances of privacy ; and this , doubtless , upon the same account ( i mean , for fear of the jews ) acts . vers . , , , . compared : this meeting also had christ in the midst of it ( in the sence formerly declared ) for by his mediation and interposure , their prayers fetch'd peter out of a strong prison with an high hand . so again , we reade of another religious meeting of the apostles , together with a considerable number of other christians , in an upper room , for the greater privacy and security , comers and goers being oft upon occasion , and for civility sake , brought into one , or more of the lower rooms of an house , when there is no occasion of their going or carrying up into the higher . besides , a continual voice may much more easily be heard , and estimated , by those that only pass by an house out of alow room , then from an high ; this being more remote , and from whence , though the sound of a voice may ( possibly ) be sometimes heard below , yet the articulateness of it , being confin'd to a narrower sphere , expireth and is lost by the way . and though dr. hamond laboureth in the very fire ( as his manner is when any thing occurs him in his way , that seems to frown upon episcopacy ) to prove , that the upper room here spoken of , was not any room in a private house , but one of the upper cambers of the temple : yet he hath so much of a man in him ( i mean of ingenuity , whereof when a man suffers himself to be dispoyled , he is only a man so called ) as to acknowledge ( and this twice over , for failing ) that christians here met , did that more privately , which could not , we may persume , be done in the temple [ he might have added , nor in any synagogue ] in any more publick place , the christian religion being not much favoured [ that is , bitterly hated ] by the jews , [ even as the religious worship of the true saints of god amongst us , is not much favoured by those , that say they are jews , and are not ( in the sence of these words , rev. . . ) and what the doctor here granteth ; namely , that believing christians kept their holy assemblies by , and amongst themselves , privately , for fear of disturbance , or mischief ( in one kind or other ) from those , that hated their way and manner of serving god , maketh as much for our purpose , as if the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or , vpper room , which he so wearieth himself to find in the temple , should prove to have been in a private house . but whether the word here translated an vpper room , signifieth in this place , an upper chamber in the temple , or no ; certain i am , that acts . . it signifieth an upper chamber in a private house ( or at least , in an house commonly and properly so called ) where also we find another private meeting of christians , and christ ( in the sence we wot of ) in the midst of them : elsewhere it signifieth ( and this twice together , as acts . . & . ) an upper chamber in a private house ; but no where at least in the new testament , an upper chamber in the temple . but this by the way . from the tenour and contents of the present consideration , it clearly appeareth , that in times of trouble , when the saints are not permitted , but under great dangers or penalties , to assemble themselves together for their holy occasions openly , christ is not wont to bless them , or do any great things for them in such promiscuous congregations , which are of a worldly complexion and constitution , as well priest as people , and which , upon this account , are publickly countenanced and rejoyced in ; but his manner and good pleasure hath been , in such hard seasons as these , to allure them into the wilderness , and there to speak kindly and graciously unto them , or to gather them together under his wings privately , as a hen gathereth her chickens , and so to communicate his heavenly warmth and vivifick influence unto them . consideration xxi . they that keep the word of christ's patience , shall be kept by him from the hour of temptation , which will come upon others to try them , ( rev. . . ) whereas they deprive themselves of the benefit and blessing of this precious promise , who shall betray , forsake , or decline this word . by the word of christs patience , though it be with some difference , yet not great neither , understood , may ( with greatest probability , as i conceive ) be meant , any gospel-truth , which is opposed with a strong and high hand , in the place where we live , and can hardly be owned and professed without suffering , or at least , without danger of suffering in one degree or other : such a truth as this , may be called , the word of christ's patience , because he is the occasion , by his charge upon men in that behalf , why any man suffers for the profession and defence of it at any time : ( or more briefly ) because it is for his sake that any man , in any case whatsoever , suffereth for it . in a state or nation professedly pagan , and where christianity , upon what terms soever professed , is a reproach unto those that profess it , or matter of deeper inconvenience , the whole gospel , or doctrine hereof in general , is , and may be called , the word of christ's patience . in kingdoms or states , professing christianity , the doctrine of the gospel in general , is never this word , because every man here may profess that he believeth this doctrine in general , without exposing himself to any danger of suffering . but the word of christ's patience in such communities of men as these , is alwayes some particular considerable and weighty truth of the gospel , one or more , which either plainly and in express words , or else constructively and by clear consequence , whether in opinion or practice , or both , is denied or opposed , either by the ruling powers , or by the ministers , and others reputed learned and orthodox , or by the generality of the people here : so that whoever shall keep this word , that is , shall discover himself to own such a truth , or shall upon occasion openly plead the cause of it , renders himself hereby obnoxious unto the hatred and ill-will of the one and the other , and consequently unto all such sufferings , both for nature and degree , which they shall think meet , and please to inflict upon him ( god permitting them so to do ; ) as on the contrary they may be said to let go , sell , or betray such a truth , and give it up , as an error , into the hand of the enemy , who being convinced in their consciences that it is a word or truth of christ , shall notwithstanding , either dissemble , or deny it , when they ought and are called to give testimony unto it , or shall comply with the adversaries in their opposition to it . now concerning the promise made by christ , unto those that shall keep the word of his patience ( in the sence given ) by being kept by him from the hour of temptation , which will come [ or , may come at one time or other ] upon the generality of christians , to try them [ throughly , or with the greatest and forest tryal of all ] is meant , that when other professors of the gospel shall , in many places , be tryed with a bloody persecution , whereby they will be brought to this sad exigent , either to waste their consciences by denying some manifest truth , or else either to lay down their lives , or to undergo somewhat that will be bitter in the next degree to it ; they shall be kept or preserved from that storm . so that this is the rule of equity , by which christ declares that he will walk towards those that profess his name and gospel ; they that shal shew themselves loyal & faithful unto him in owning any of his words , when they are opposed , although their faithfulness in this kind shal expose them unto , or bring upon them , lighter sufferings only , and , which are more easie to be born , shall notwithstanding , upon the account of such their faithfulness , be excused or exempted by him from greater tryals , and which are unto blood : whereas those that shall faulter with him , and turn their backs upon any of his words or truths , when the danger of owning them is but little ( comparitively ) shall be in danger of being exposed and left by him unto temptations that are most fiery and grievous , and exceeding difficult to be resisted . let us now apply the consideration of these things to the business in hand . one of the words of christs patience amongst us at this day ( and which , for weight and moment , hath the preheminence amongst some others that may passe under the same denomination ) is , that christ is not onely the sovereign , or supream , but the sole and onely law-giver unto his church and people , in matters appertaining to the worship of god. whether the open asserting and maintaining of this truth in the terms now expressed , and no further , or otherwise , will create danger or trouble unto any person amongst us , or no , i cannot affirme : but certain i am , that both an oral and practical maintaining of it , in the right sense and import of the said words , is of a threatning concernment amongst us . for if the legis-lative authority in matters of divine worship , and things requisite , and necessary , at all times , and in all places , hereunto , be vested in christ alone , then they that shall keep , own , and give testimony unto , this word , must not consent unto , or comply with ; either in word , or deed , any model or form of praying , any ceremony , one , or more , in , or about the worship of god , any church-office for the regulating and ordering of this worship , which christ himself hath not prescribed , ordered , and appointed , but are introduced , imposed , and commanded , under mulcts , and penalties , by humane power and authority only . for any thing by command made necessary in , or for , the worship and service of god , and without which men are not permitted ( but at their peril ) to worship him , hereby becomes essential to this worship , and so somewhat , and a part , of it . those circumstances , which god commanded in relation to any main part of his worship under the law , though they were , in themselves considered , things indifferent , as that the beast to be sacrificed should be killed on the side of the altar northward , levit. . . that the crop and feathers of the fowles sacrificed should be cast besides the altar on the east part , ver . . that the priest should dip his finger in the blood of the bullock offered , and sprinkle it seven times before the vaile , and put some of it upon the horns of the altar , levit. . , . all these circumstances ( i say ) with many others of like consideration , however indifferent in themselves , yet being commanded by god with reference to his worship , and so that this could not be performed , regularly and with acceptation , without the observance of them , hereby became parts of his worship : from whence ( by the way ) it is observable likewise , that for men to claim an authority , or right of power , to make indifferent things necessary , in , for , or about , the worship of god , is to make themselves equal in authority ( at least in matters of this high and sacred concernment ) with god himself ; and consequently , to deny jesus christ to be the sole law-giver unto his church in things appertaining to the worship of god. and as under the law , god himself commanded all indifferent things in , and about , his worship , which were in any respect commodious , or comely in it , or for it , judging all other indifferent things , which he left un-commanded in this case , to be as necessary and fitting to be thus left ( i mean , un-commanded ) ; in like manner it argueth very unworthy ( that i say not , blasphemous ) thoughts of christ in any man , to question , either , . whether he perfectly knew what indifferent things were necessary , or in any respect , or degree , would be comely in the worship of god under the gospel ; or . whether he neglected to prescribe by himself , or ( which signifieth the same ) by his apostles , all such particular things ; which he knew to be any wayes needful , or meet , in this worship , judging it better to betrust the wisdom and wills of men with the enjoyning of them , or ( at least ) of some of them , then his own ; or . ( and lastly ) whether he did not well know , that it was better , and more conducing , both to the glory of god , and to the benefit and comfort of his church and people , that such indifferent things , as he left free , and un-commanded , should remain so still , and that his counsel in that behalf , should not be defeated , or made void by men ; who now by their impositions of such things , which christ would not impose , deal between him , and his people , much alike as gehazi did between his master elisha , and naaman the syrian : behold ( saith this unworthy servant ) my master hath spared naaman this syrian , in not receiving at his hands that which he brought : but , as the lord liveth , i will run after him , and take somewhat of him : and being as good ( or rather , as bad ) as his word , he undetermined , and disanulled , through his base covetousness , the honourable intention of his worthy master , which was , that naaman's cure should cost him nothing , king. . so do they who diotrephes-like , affect a preheminence , and power in , and over , the churches of god , which are incompetent to them , ( in effect ) say : our master christ spared his church and people , and was over-indulgent to them in matters appertaining to the worship of god , left them at great liberty , imposing few external observances upon them herein , and those easie ; but as the lord liveth , our little finger shall be thicker , or heavier , unto them , than his loynes , we will enslave them , and set task-masters over them , vicars-generall , chancellours , arch-deacons , officials , commissaries , apparitors , ( who shall spoil both for themselves and for us ) church-wardens , sides-men , parish-priests , parish-clarks , ( all , either apostolical , or apocryphal , officers in the church ; ) moreover we will lay a load of ceremonies and observations upon them , we will compel them to worship and serve god with the same liturgies , letanies , collects , and other devices , wherewith we are content to worship him ; to hear , where , and whom we shall appoint them to hear ; we will make them pray , when we say , pray ; bow , when we say , bow ; kneel , when we say kneel ; stand up , when we say , stand up ; be uncovered , when we say , be uncovered ; swear , when we say , swear ; inform , when we say , inform : in a word , we will rule them with a rod of iron , and break them in pieces like a potters vessel , if we find them refractory and disobedient unto us , and not to do all things that we command them . doubtless those men , in whom such a spirit as this worketh effectually , do not in good earnest , and with the whole heart , acknowledg jesus christ to be the sole law-giver unto his church and people . for where he imposeth one law or observation upon them , concerning the worship and service of god , they impose ten ( if not a greater number than so ) ; thus through their pride , and lust of domineering , utterly defacing and defeating the gracious intendment of christ towards them , which ( as was lately said ) was to make the yoke of the worship of god , in respect of the external part of it , exceeding easie and leight , and to leave it free and dis-incumbred , as from the rudiments of the world , so from the traditions , ritual injunctions , and impositions of men . therefore they who any wayes countenance or comply with , these men in their clame , or exercise of such a power , in or over any of the churches of christ , or shall submit unto any of their injunctions issued forth , and imposed , under a pretence , or by vertue of this power , do not keep , but give up , and betray that word of christs patience , which asserteth unto him the sole legis-lative power over all his churches , ( as hath been declared ) and consequently , lay themselves open and naked unto farre more grievous and formidable temptations , which sooner or later they are like to fall into , if not to fall under : for the promise of being kept by christ from such temptations as these , is ( as we have heard ) made onely unto those , who have kept the word of his patience , [ meaning , when the danger of keeping it was less , and the temptation to forsake or betray it , more easie to be resisted , and to stand upright under ] . i shall not need ( i suppose ) further to add , that they who do homage with their attendance and dependance upon that ministry , which is pretended to be erected in the church , and upheld by the power which magnifieth it self against the prerogative of christ in his power over his churches , do most notoriously and palpably betray that word of his patience , which asserteth this his prerogative unto him ( the erecting of a ministry , being one of the most daring , insolent , and heaven-affronting actings of that usurped power ) , and so for fear of being beaten with rods , take a direct course to be scourged with scorpions . these are some of those important considerations , which being throughly digested in the judgments and consciences of good christians , cannot ( leightly ) but so affect them , as to cause them to distast the practice of hearing a prelatical ministry . i could have encreased the number of them with some others , which ( haply ) might have done as good execution upon the judgments of some , as any of them . but i am earnestly perswaded that god will ere long raise up a better workman , who by his direction and assistance , shall hammer this nayl to more purpose , then hath yet been done . in the mean time , because errour , and sin , have their glosses and colours , as well as truth and righteousness , their weight and substance ; let us briefly survey some of the fairest pretexts , wherewith the practice hitherto censured , and disswaded from , may ( probably ) hope , yea ( possibly ) be confident , that she is able to justifie her self . cities and castles , that have been long built , and were never yet attempted , at least never conquered , either by siege or assault , are like to impute their freedome in this kind , and long continued safety , unto their own strength , the arguments then , whereby the practise condemned in the premises , seems most desensible , are these following : and verily i shall acknowledge my self a debtor , as for a signal courtesie , unto him that shall either mend , or improve these my arguments , or offer me others of more strength . argument i. our saviour christ , to the multitude , and to his disciples , saith thus ; the scribes and the pharisees sit in moses seat : all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do : but &c. mat. . , , . if it were lawful , yea matter of duty , ( for so the command , or charge of christ maketh it ) for them to observe and do whatsoever the scribes and pharisees taught them according to moses's law , then is it lawful and no less matter of duty , for christians to observe and do , whatsoever prelatical ministers teach them according to the gospel : for these are not , at least many of them are not , a more unworthy generation of men then they : and if they stand bound to do whatsoever they thus teach , they stand bound to hear them when they teach , at least they may lawfully hear them . answer . . the reason why ministers of a prelatical edition ought not to be heard in their publick teachings , is not because they are a generation of men more wicked and vile then the scribes and pharisees were , but because their delinquency is such , and so unhappily conditioned , that we cannot wait upon them in their ministerial employments , without being partakers with them therein ; and we stand expresly charged by god not to be partakers of other mens sins , tim. . . eph. . . ( with many other places ) . for deriving , and accepting , their ministerial function from an anti-christian power ( i mean , such a power , which exalteth it self against , and in many things , above the power of jesus christ , acted and exercised by him , in and over his churches , as was shewed in the last consideration ) in and by every exercise and administration of this their function , they avouch and justifie that so highly-sacrilegious an usurpation : and they who countenance them with their presence , whilst they act this great unworthiness , do nothing less then justify such their justification , and so must needs share with them in the iniquity of it . whereas the scribes and pharisees , of whom our saviour speaks in the text before us , according to dr. hamand's own paraphrase of the place , were of the sanedrim , and to be looked upon by them [ the people , and his disciples themselves ] as their lawful rulers that had authority over them , succeeding moses and the seventy elders , numb . . . according to this notion ( which is not altogether improbable ) there was no reasonable ground of any scruple about hearing them , when they expounded and declared moses his law. and if it could be proved on the behalf of the ministers , whom we judg it unlawful to hear in their teachings , that they in any such sence , sit in the seat , either of the apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors , or teachers , which christ , when he ascended up on high , gave for the perfecting of the saints , &c. neither should we question the lawfulnesse , yea or duty ( upon occasion ) of hearing them . but the conjecture of grotius seems more rational , and better comporting with the scriptures ; which is this , that the jewes had no consistory of tryers , nor any person or persons , publickly authorized among them , to examine , or take account who were meet , or fit to be allowed for expounders of the law , but that it was free for any man , whose heart served him for the work , or take it upon him , and to instruct and teach the people accordingly : only adding , that more generally , they who did take this profession or work upon them , were pharisaici instituti , of the sect or perswasion of the pharisees : as ( saith he ) among the romans , it was permitted unto any man that would , to plead any mans case at any bar of judicature in their state . that which we read , acts . . favours the said conjecture : and after the reading of the law and the prophets , the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them , saying , ye men and brethren , if ye have any word of exhortation for the people , say on : which seems to imply , that any person amongst them , might , without breach of any order or custome , teach the people publickly out of the law and prophets . if it were thus , neither could there be any the like reason for the jewish people to deny their attendance upon the scribes and pharisees in their teachings of the law , which , according to the premises , there is , why christian people should separate themselves from priests of the prelatical unction in their preachings of the gospel . these pollute themselves by poluting the most sacred and blessed name of jesus christ , in accepting their office , or power of preaching , upon the terms they do , whereby they become irregular for this employment ; whereas the other , supposing them of competent abilities for the work , committed no offence , offered no indignity unto god , in accepting , or entring upon it . argument ii. the apostle paul rejoyced , yea , and professed that he would rejoyce , that christ was preached every way , whether in pretence or in truth , phil. . . therefore certainly it is lawful , yea , and more than lawful ( even matter of duty , upon occasion ) to hear such ( at least ) of the prelatical teachers , who preach christ , which it seems hard to deny but that some of them do . for such preaching , which no man can hear without sin , cannot be any just matter of rejoycing unto a christian , nor ( indeed ) unto any man. answer . . this general expression , every way , is to be limited and understood , according to the subject matter in hand . there is nothing more frequent in the scriptures than to deliver that in general terms , which yet admits , not of a simple , or absolute universality in the meaning of it , but only of such , which renders it consistent with the tenor and notion of other scriptures , and is ( for the most part ) commensurable to the present occasion , matth. . . mark . . — . . luke . . . — . . john . . acts . . rom. . . ( to omit other instances without number ) . besides , it is a common and true rule , praedicata sunt talia , qualia à subjectis suis esse permituntar : in propositions , the sence of one part is to be regulated by , and accommodated into the sence and import of the other . so then the apostles meaning ( in the words before us ) is not that the preaching of christ , or that which may ( in a sence ) be called , the preaching of christ , in what way , or upon what terms , or by what persons soever , it should , or could be performed , would be matter of rejoycing : such a sence as this ( besides that the words no wayes necessitate unto it , but rather lead aside from it , as may be shewed presently ) is inconsistent with what we find in the scripture elsewhere . for when the devil preached christ , affirming , upon his knowledge , that he was the holy one of god , mark . . luke . . and again , that he was christ , the son of god , vers . . the lord christ was so far from rejoycing in being thus preached , that he rebuked the preacher , and commanded him to hold his peace , luke . . . mark . . thus the damsel that followed paul and those with him , crying out , and saying , concerning them , these men are the servants of the most high god , which shew unto us the way of salvation , did , in effect , and after a sort , preach christ , by giving testimony unto those , who did truly preach him , yet paul rejoyced not in this her preaching of him , but on the contrary , was grieved at it ( as is expresly said , acts . . ) they also preached christ , who preached justification and salvation by him , though not by him alone , but in conjunction with circumcision , and the works of the law ; yet neither did paul rejoyce in his being preached in such a manner , or upon such terms , acts . . gal. . . . phil. . , . gal. . . compared . nor is it like that he would have much rejoyced in his being preached by such persons , of whom he prophesieth , acts . . grievous wolves — not sparing the flock . amongst other characters of persons , of whom god himself demandeth what have you to do to declare my statutes , or that you should take my covenant into your mouth , this is one ; that when they saw a thief , they consented with him , psal . . , . which in a very emphatical sence , is found in those preachers , whom we judge it unbecoming a good christian to hear . for in accepting their office of a ministry from the hierarchical lords , they consent with them in their sacrilegious robbing the lord jesus christ of that authority and honour , which god hath judged meet to confer upon him , in anointing and appointing him to be the sole law giver unto his churches in things appartaining to the worship and service of god , as well in things to be practised , as in things to be believed . but of this we have spoken formerly . by what hath been said to the argument in hand , it is sufficiently evident , that the apostle's general expression concerning christ's being preached every way , is to be understood with limitation ; and consequently , that no argument , or proof for any thing , can be drawn from the generality of it . . in propriety and strictness of speaking , christ cannot be said to be preached by a prelatical ministry . for only then he may be properly said to be preached , when he is preached , and set forth , like unto himself , without any diminution , impairment , or dis-mantling of his glory : and if any person be preached under the name of christ , unto whom any part of that glory is denyed by those who preach him , in , or by , their act of preaching him , which is appropriate unto the true christ , the christ of god , it is not this christ , but another , an idol christ , that is preached . now the ministers we speak of , in , and by , their very act , or deed , of preaching , justifie those , who both in words , but especially in deeds , deny the true christ to be the sole lawgiver unto his churches ( as hath been proved ) which yet is one of the richest , and most illustrious and shining gems in that crown of glory , which god the father hath set upon his head : and whilst they preach such a christ as this ( a christ who hath no such prerogative , or royalty , belonging to him , as a sole power of legis-lation unto his churches , but hath weak and sinful men joynt-sharers with him in his authority in this kind ) do not preach the true , the real christ , the christ of god ( as peter termeth him , luke . . ) but a christ formed in their own imaginations , & having no existence but here only , and in the fancies of their proselites , and is not able to justifie men from their sins , nor to save their souls , though ( it is like ) they ascribe these great things unto him , as idolaters in all ages have been wont to attribute the great works of god unto their idols . and as christ is said to appear in heaven for us , ( heb. . . ) meaning , that his very appearance before god , considering what he hath done , and suffered on our behalf , is , without any other expression , or application of himself unto him , as by oral request , prostration , or the like , a most effectual interceding with him for us : in like manner the sole appearance of a prelatical minister in the pulpit to perform the act of preaching , it being known and considered , how , and by what , or whose , authority , he appears upon such an account here , is an interceding , or pleading , with all that are before him , for that antichristian and lawless power , which is blasphemously claim'd , and exercised , by the great masters of the hierchy , and consequently , against that most sacred prerogative of christ , which giveth him the honour of being the sole law-giver unto his churches . and as the apostle speaketh of some , who [ in words ] profess that they know god , but in works they deny him , ( tit. . . ) so in case such a minister as this , should in his doctrine , or sermon , affirm jesus christ to be the sole lawgiver unto his churches , yet in , and by , his very act of preaching he should deny it . . ( and lastly ) this distribution , whether in pretence , or in truth , plainly sheweth , that the apostle in his general expression of christ's being preached every way , intended only these two ; his being preached , either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in pretence [ or , as some render it , occasinally ] or , in truth . now christ may be said to be preached , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in pretence , when they who preach him , are acted and moved hereunto by indirect and unworthy ends , and yet would be thought to preach him in truth , [ that is , out of a sincere and upright intention , and desire , to serve god , and man in the work . ] and inasmuch as they who preach christ out of sinister and by-ends , may neverthelesse be free from scandal , and from the guilt of any such known act , or practise , whereby christ is denied in any of the divine royalties appropriate to his kingly office , or annexed to his mediatory throne , their preaching of christ , if it be according to the true tenor and purport of the gospel ( as it may be , and as it seems , theirs was , by whom paul supposeth he was preached in pretence ) in respect of the glory that may hereby redound unto god , and the benefit that may accrue unto men , is just matter of rejoycing unto a sober and considerate christian : yea , though it should be revealed unto him by god ( as it was unto paul in the case before us ) that such a man's aims or ends in preaching , are not honourable , or christian . but this maketh nothing for the countenancing of their preaching him , who openly consent unto , and are consederate with , those , who devest him of his glory , yea , and are publickly known to divide the spoyl with them . argument iii. yea but some of those ministers , whom you would make it unlawful for us to hear , are holy and good men , of exemplary lives and conversations , sober , temperate , just , full of good works , given to hospitality , charitable to the poor , &c. it seems an hard saying unto us , that it should not be lawful for us to hear such men as these , at least if in their preaching of the gospel ; they turn neither to the right hand , nor to the left , but keep close all along to the counsel and mind of god therein . answer . . i verily believe , and this upon terms better pleasing unto those , with whom we are in contest , than of meer christian charity , that there have been more than a few of those , who have accepted their office of ministry from the irregular hand of prelacy , of that christian and worthy character specified in the argument , viz. holy and good , of exemplary lives , &c. yea , i am not without hope , but that there may be amongst us at this day a remnant of the same generation , who are sound at the heart , and love jesus christ in sincerity , who ( setting aside their compliance with prelatical usurpations and superstitions , the great evil whereof may not as yet be arrived at their judgments ) are christianly orthodox , both in their lives and doctrines : nay , i doubt not but that the prelatical order it self hath , by it's enchantments , tempted many of the true friends , and faithful servants of god , into the embracements of it . but , . our english proverb , which remindeth us , that all is not gold , that glistereth , may a little quallifie our credulity , without making any breach upon our charity , in the case in hand ; considering that the great apostle himself , in reference hereunto , speaketh as much ( if not much more ) where he informeth us , as of a secret , that it is no great thing [ that is , no wonderful , or rare thing , as the word , great , often signifieth in the scriptures ] if the ministers of satan be transformed as the ministers of righteousness , himself being transformed into an angel of light : yea , he had spoken immediately before of certain false apostles , deceitful workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ , cor. . , , . so that men may be false apostles , ministers of satan , and deceitful workers , [ that is , may , in the course of their ministry , slily , and subtilly , drive on some un - christian and satanical design , dangerous to the souls of those that hear them ] and yet , both in their lives , and in the ordinary and general current of their preaching , outwardly appear so like unto ministers of righteousness , and of christ [ for they must artifically resemble them in both , to compleat their transformation ] that it will be a very hard matter , till after some considerable space of time , and without much narrow observation , to detect and discover them . and it is much to be feared , that many of those few amongst us , whom we have ground , both from their lives , and ordinary teachings , to judge persons of christian worth , and integrity in that way , will sooner , or later , bewray themselves not to be the men in heart , which for a time they were in face . for some , who are wont to quit themselves like angels of light in thier usual , and more frequent preachings , being persons also sober and grave in all that is visible in their conversations , yet upon some occasions , and , for the most part , in their sermons on dayes of publick humiliations , or thanksgivings , and sometimes in their funeral discourses , are prevented by thier proper and true genius ; so that the cloven foot now appears . . amongst the authorized teachers of the romish faith , and religion , priests and jesuits , there are some ( and haply a larger proportion ) no wayes behind , if not before , the best approved of our prelatical ministers , for any thing singular , either in their lives , or ordinary teachings . therefore if we judge it not safe , or well-pleasing unto god , constantly , or ordinarily , to seek our edification in things appertaining unto god , and to our eternal salvation , at the lips of these men , in their ordinary , or setled course of teaching , why should we not be as conscientious and tender to seek it upon such terms at the mouths of those amongst us , whom our prelatical lords are pleased to send forth , and appoint for the same great ends , and services unto us ? for ( doubtless ) as well the latter , as the former , are in the great condemnation of supporting an antichristian interest and power , and this even by that which is commendable , and pleasing unto men , either good , or bad , both in their lives , and in their doctrine : and consequently go hand in hand in promoting such a design , which counter-works the holy project and design of jesus christ , which is , that his saints may serve him without fear [ as well of sufferings from men , as from god ] in holiness and righteousness before him all the dayes of their lives , luke . , . and it hath been seldome , or never known , that any great community , body , or party of men in the world , have long subsisted ( at least upon any competent terms of credit , peace , or safety ) but by means of some few of their members ( respectively ) who by their wisdom & worth above their fellows , have been as pillars to bear up their several polities , or parties , and keep them from sinking ; as paul speaking of james , cephas , and john , saith , they seemed [ or , were counted , as our former translation had it ] pillars , ( meaning , to support the christian interest in the world . ) as though there be some thousands of laths , and many slight pieces for partitions , and otherwise , in a building , yet those few substantial and main pieces of sound tymber , unto which the architect coupleth and fastneth the rest of his work , are they which give strength unto the house , and make it able to endure , and stand , all winds and weather . so that when god ( whether out of his wisdom , for the tryal of those , who profess his name , or out of judgment , to punish their unworthiness , or upon what other account soever , whether known , or unknown , unto us ) pleaseth to give way unto satan , by his subtile and plausible insinuations and suggestions so far to tamper with the hearts and spirits of some professors of the gospel , as between them , to raise up , and set on foot , and for any considerable tract of time to maintain and keep on foot , a corrupt interest under some religious pretence ( one , or more ) in the christian world , he is pleased likewise to suffer the plausible pleas , and pretences of this interest , together with the large portion of worldly accommodations which it promiseth unto those , that shall espouse it , so to dazle and blind the eyes of the reasons , judgements , and consciences of some wise , learned , and good men all along the continuance of it , that they shall not see the evil of it , nor yet be convinced hereof by those who do see it most clearly , but shall cleave fast and close unto it , and stand up in their might to justifie and plead the cause of it , it is said that the eyes of the two disciples travelling to emaus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( luke . . ) were mightily , or powerfully held ; by reason whereof they did not know the lord christ , though present with them in his proper countenance and face , with which they were so familiarly acquainted : only ( as it seems by what mark affirmeth , chap. . . ) he was somewhat disguised in his apparel ; yet all this while their eyes were as open to see and discern all other objects , but onely the face of christ , as at other times . in like manner the eyes of the minds and understandings even of men piously-learned and grave , may , upon gods withholding his wonted concurrence with them in reference to the discerning of such , and such particular truths , be so deluded , captivated , and bewitched with the false colours and appearances of truth in the contrary-errors , that they will without fear , or scruple , embrace these , yea and with an high hand of confidence and importunity , rise up to justifie and maintain them : when as they may all this while approve themselves for men of an exact judgement , and discerning spirit between truth and error , in other cases . men of this character , or ( at least ) seemingly such ( i mean , holy and good men , generally quick-fighted , but particularly blinded ) generally have been , and are at this day , the main props , and supporters of all those adulterate and anti-evangelical interests , and combinations of men , which are found in the christian world : ( although i make a little more question , whether they also were such , who were the first founders , and authors of them . ) such persons as these now and then found within the territories of the romish profession , have been , and are , the breath of the nostrils of that religion : such as these , taking part with the admirers of , and contenders for , the common-prayer-book , prescribed liturgies , &c. keep life and soul together in this party of men amongst us . some such persons likewise , have incorporated themselves with that body of men , who dote upon the prelatical hierarchy ( as if it had either scripture , or sound reason , to friend , or both ) are helpers in chief to prolong the days of that interest , which otherwise would soon be aposynagogized by the christian world . and were there not some persons of the character mentioned in the numerous retinew of those , who flatter christian princes into formal antichristianisme , by teaching them to lay claim to both swords , as well the spiritual , as the temporal ; neither would this generation , or sect of men , lift up their heads at that rate of height and confidence , which now they do . it were easie to adde many more instances , if need were : but by what hath been lately , and formerly , discoursed in these papers , it plainly appeareth , that the holy and good men , who have interessed themselves in the cause of prelacy , and avouched the descent of it from the great apostle and high priest , of christian profession , by accepting their office of ministry from it , are they who have compassion on it ( as the ziphims had on saul , when he persecuted david , sam. . . ) and in , and by , the exercise of their ministry , are the chief contributers towards the maintenance of the life of it in the world . therefore those worthy qualifications of holiness and goodness , in such ministers , are so far from , being any reasonable grounds , or motives , unto christians to strengthen their hand in the way of their present standing and relation unto prelacy , by a consciencious attendance on them in their ministry , that , the evil tendency of this ministry considered , they are rather grand dissuasives herefrom . for strike the shores and props from under a crazie and tottering building , the fabrique will soon fall as flat as the walls of jericho , to the ground . sathan by none of all his other methods , or devices , is able to consult the peace of his kingdom upon such terms of advantage , as by tempting holy and good men with secret overtures , or promises of enjoying the goodly and great things of the world , to fall down , and worship him . nor hath god any means more proper to weaken this kingdome , and prepare it for destruction , than by opening the eyes of his servants , that darkness be no longer for a vision unto them , and that they hasten out of babylon , which , whilest their eyes were held , they verily thought to be jerusalem . argument iv. but god himself hath , from time to time , given testimony to that ministry , which you would perswade us to decline as being unlawful , by granting the conversion of many souls unto himself to be wrought by it , together with the edification of many ( formerly converted ) in their most holy faith : yea , he hath done much good by it in both these kinds , in this very nation , since he brake the yoke of romish subjection from off the neck of it : or doth not such a gracious concurrance , or co-operation , of god as this with a ministry , amount to as much as the setting of his seal unto it that it is true , and such wherein he delighteth , the apostle paul writing thus to the corinthians , for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the lord , cor. . . can it then it be unlawful for christians to here such ministers , whom god himself-countenanceth , and blesseth , in their work ? answer . . that voice from heaven [ that is from god ] come out of her my people , [ meaning out of babylon , the mother of fornications ] rev. . . sheweth that there may be conversion of souls , even in babylon , and this ( as seems not improbable ) by the spurious ministry that is exercised here . it is no wayes like , that those persons , whom god , by the name of , his people , warneth by a voice from heaven , to come out of babylon , were his people [ that is , truly regenerate , and believing ] before they entered into babylon , and that afterwards they went , and took up their dwellings here . if conversion may be wrought by a babylonish ministry , it is a clear case that it is not universally , and in all cases , a convincing proof of a legitimate and true ministry . and therefore whereas the apostle termeth the corinthians , the seal of his apostleship , it was not simply , or so much , in respect of their conversion by him unto the faith , but rather in respect of the extraordinary manner , and high hand of divine power , which appeared with him , and in him , for their conversion ; without which he seems to imply , that in respect of their more than ordinary indisposition to submit unto the gospel , being a wealthy and worldly-wise people , and under several disadvantages otherwise , there had been little likelyhood of their conversion to the faith , especially , in such considerable numbers , as now , by this means had embraced it . for upon some such account as this it is , that he reminds them in these words , truly the signes of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience , in signes , and wonders , and mighty deeds , cor. . . from this passage , and the words next following with some others in these two epistles it appears , that god judged it necessary and meet that this his apostle should make more use of his gift of miracles amongst this people , in order to their conversion , and confirmation in the faith , then in any other place , whither he was sent to preach the gospel . this plainly sheweth them to have been a generation of men of that character , which our saviour pointeth at in those , to whom he said , except ye see signes and wonders , ye will not believe , john . . which temper , or complexion of mind , argueth a great estrangement in men from god , and an utter un-acquaintedness with his nature and attributes . therefore the apostle affirming the corinthians to be , the seal of his apostleship [ meaning , an effectual proof , and confirmation of the truth of it , and that he received it from god ] intendeth it not in respect of their conversion by him , simply considered , but of those miraculous appearances of god with him , for , and in , the effecting of it . so that nothing can be concluded from hence to prove true conversion unto god , to be alwayes , or in all cases , an argument , or proof , that that ministry , by which it is wrought , is from god. for the further clearing of which it may be considered , . that god , in his dispensations , and applications of himself unto the children of men , putteth a very great difference between times of ignorance , and times of knowledge ; indulging many things in way of favour , mercy , and compassion , unto persons offending through the ignorance of his will , when this ignorance is not affectate , or willingly , and upon a cursed design of sinning more freely , kept and maintained in the soul , but hath been , and is , occasioned , either by the scantness of light , or shortness of the means about them , whereby to come to the knowledge of the truth , or else by the weakness and flowness of their understandings , or else by meer incogitancy , or that backwardness of making district enquiry after truth , which so easily ( and almost universally ) besetteth flesh and blood ; or lastly , by means of a strong and flattering perswasion that they know the truth already , and so need not make any such enquiry after it ; god ( i say ) is wont to make many large allowances in grace and favour unto those that are ignorant of his will upon any of the occasions now mentioned , though they act contrary to it , which he will at no hand indulge unto those , that either know , or easily may know it , and yet will notwithstanding walk in the sight of their own eyes , and in the ways of their own hearts . this observation ( i verily believe ) for both number and clearness of scripture testimonies , may compare with any other truth asserted here . the places that speak to the heart of it , were they drawn together , and a little argued , would amount to a just volume . i shall mention onely one ( a text well known ) and point to a few others . and the times of this ignorance god winked at : but now commandeth all men every where to repent ; because he hath appointed a day [ that is , he now maketh known unto the world that he hath appointed a day ; for the day was appointed as much in the former times , as now : but things in scripture are frequently said to be done , when they are made manifest ] wherein he will judge the world in righteousness , &c. acts . , . it is evident from hence in the general ( for we must not now stand to scan particulars ) that god was much more favourable to the same kind of sinners , who sinned in times of ignorance , then he was resolved to be unto those that should sin in times of greater light . if you question in the least the truth of the observation now propounded , these texts ( with their fellows of like import ) are of sufficient authority to set your judgements at liberty , luke . , . gen. . , . numb . . , . psal . . . — . , . rom. . , , , , &c. — . . john . . — . . luke . . titus . . — tim. . . heb. . . — . , , . james . . unto these scriptures , i onely subjoyne ( for their sympathy in notion ) a memorable saying of an ancient father and martyr : the simple error [ or ignorance ] of men might be pardoned [ by god ] , but when he hath inspired them with , or discovered , the truth , if now they transgress , they sin without the pardon [ or leave ] of ignorance a ; meaning , that they are not like to find that favour , or mercy , which god is wont to vouchsafe unto those , that sin out of meer ignorance . this consideration leadeth us by a straight line to this conclusion ; that during that long tract of time , wherein god judgeth it meet to punish , try , and exercise the christian world with prelatical encroachments , and the un-natural swellings of episcopal power , and consequently to suffer the reasons & understandings of those , who otherwise might , and ( doubtless ) would have detected , and withstood , those high usurpations over his free-born sons and daughters to be so held , or otherwise incumbred and diverted , as to overlook the intimations of his mind in the scriptures against those monstrous exorbitancies in his church ; that god ( i say ) during the times of this ignorance , and incogitancy , amongst christians , might in mercy do good to the souls of some , even by such a ministry , which he never allowed , nor approved , but onely tollerated until the times of reformations yea , and which he will not allow his people to countenance , or credit , by resorting unto it , when once he hath caused the irregularity of it to be brought to light , and the gospel to utter and speak out that enmity , which it beareth to it . nor is it like , that when he shall have plainly , and to the full conviction of reasonable and sober men , discovered the nakedness and shame of it , that ever he will have to do , or co-operate with it , either to the conversion , or edification , of any soul more . and as abraham lived well , enjoyed the love of god , throve in his estate , and prospered in the world , whilst he lived in his own countrey , amongst his kindred , and in his father's house , before god called him out from hence to dwell in the land of canaan , where he intended to bless and prosper him yet seven times more , whereas had he disobeyed the call of god , and continued in his father's house still , this call notwithstanding , doubtless he had highly provoked god , neither would his own countrey , kinred , or father's house , have been the same unto him in comfort and peace , which formerly they had been : in like manner , though an honest and upright soul may be in the love and favour of god , and thrive competently in its spiritual estate , under a prelatical ministry ( and haply in babylon it self ) whilest it remains ignorant of the mind and will of god concerning its removal , and wanteth light to discern the evil of such standings ; yet if it shall chuse , and resolve , to keep these postures , or standings , after that god shall have called unto it to forsake them , they are not like to yield any of their former accommodations unto it , nor is god like to take the same delight in ( or rather to shew the same compassion on ) this soul , which he did before : but according to the observation , and saying of david , he turneth a fruitful land into barrenness , for the wickednesse of them that dwell therein , psal . . . if it be demanded ; but when , or how , doth god call any soul , or person , from under a prelatical ministry , or out of babylon ? i answer ; when by a clear light he discovers the sinfulness , or ( which is the same , in effect the danger , or threatning consequence , of a mans abiding under the former , or in the latter . conviction of any thing sinful , or unlawful , in any of our wayes , is a loud call from god unto repentance and reformation . and as abrahams obedience unto the call of god , when he called him out from his own country , kinred , and fathers house , is commended by this , that he went out , not knowing whither he went , ( heb. . . ) but sped never the worse for this : so when god shall call us from under an unlawful ministry , it is not christian-like to make any such allegation , or plea , as this , against our ready and cheerful submission to his call ; we know not where we shall mend our selves , or find the like spiritual provisions , we are like to be losers by the change , &c. it would be much more worthy a son , or daughter , of god in this case , to consider and work upon that which david immediately subjoyneth to the passage lately cited from him ▪ he turneth the wildernesse into a standing water , and dry ground into water springs ; and there he maketh the hungry to dwell , that they may prepare a city for habitation , &c. psal . . , , , . they who shall forsake a polluted ministry , though otherwise plausible , and in all points besides lively resembling the true ministry of christ , upon divine conviction of the pollutedness of it , need not fear that they shall be losers in their spiritual estates hereby , or suffer in their inner man. the woman cloathed with the sun rev. . when she fled from the city into the wilderness , being ( as it appears ) admonished by god so to do , had a place here prepared for her by god , where she was fed and nourished [ with a more wholesome diet , doubtless , then she should have been in the city ] for many years . . although for argument sake , and in part ( i confess ) for probability sake , and likelihood of truth , it hath been granted , that some have been truly and savingly converted to the faith , and some edified , by a prelatical ministry , yet i believe it will sorely rack the parts and learning of the greatest patrons of it , to make any demonstrative proof of either , especially of the former . it was a right and useful observation of aristotle , that to take 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that which follows in time for the effect of that which goeth before , is a common mistake amongst men . those that have been converted after , or upon the hearing of a sermon , possibly might not be converted by it . again , it is well known unto those , that are but competently versed in ecclesiastical records , as well of ancient , as of latter times , that great numbers both of men and women , have been savingly wrought upon by other means and dispensations of god , and not by hearing ministers of a prelatical creation . not to insist upon particulars in this kind , as either the conversion of constantine by reading the sibylline oracles , as some of these records report ; or of augustine , begotten unto god ( as himself in his confession giveth the christian world to understand ) between a miracle ( or the miraculous voice of tolle , et lege , take up , and read , heard by him in a garden oft repeated , as with a singing tone ) and the reading of those texts of scripture , rom. . , . or of victormus , antonius , and several others , mentioned by him in these writings , as brought off from heathenisme unto god by the like , or not much unlike , means , ( or of others that might , without number , be collected out of other authors ) . baronius reports that three whole nations , the franks , the goths , the longobards , were converted from paganisme , and many impious errours , unto the christian faith , by three women ; the franks , in gallia , by chrotildis ( a burgundian ) ; the goths , in spain , by ingundes ( a frank ) ; the longobards , in italy , by theodolinda a bavarian . besides the woman cloathed with the sun , &c. ( of whom we lately spake , and by whom we signified , according to the concurrent testimony of all expositors , that i have seen , or heard of , is meant the true church of christ , consisting of real and true believers ) during the whole term of the grandure of the beast , and whilest the world went wondering after him [ that is , whilest the great body , or bulk of visible professors throughout the christian world round about him , owned his spiritual , and consequently his temporal jurisdiction also , over them ] fled ( as we likewise heard ) into the wilderness [ namely , from the dragon , who had now slily , and undiscernably to the greatest part of professing christians , conveyed and wound himself into the said two-horn'd beast ] here , by the gracious interposure of god , to be fed and nourished . now this woman ( the true church ) was not barren , but brought forth children , sons and daughters unto god , during her abode in the wilderness from first to last : but she brought not forth these children by the knowledge of a prelatical ministry ; the ministers of this order exercising their ministry in the city [ i mean , openly , and in places prepared , and allowed , for such purposes , by the civil magistrate , and so had no occasion to flee into the wilderness , or to seek solitary and private places for the employment of their talent in this kind ] : unless we shall conceive , that the woman we speak of , was all along supplyed with children out of the city , by the publique ministry here , god , secretly admonishing , and perswading those sons and daughters of his , that were begotten by such illegitimate fathers , as soon as , or not long after , they were spiritually born , to with-draw themselves from under the hand of such fathers , and to joyn themselves unto his true church and people in the wilderness , here to be fed and nourished , that is , to be built up in their most holy faith , and prepared for their heavenly glory . so that one of these two propositions must needs be yielded ; either that conversion , for many ages by-past , hath been wrought by other means , and by another ministry , than that of a prelatical descent , and so not necessarily by this ; or in case this ministry hath converted any , that these upon their conversion , have been required by god not to remain , or sit still under it , but to seek their edification amongst their brethren in assemblies of a beter complexion , and from a ministry of a more honourable and lawful extraction . the former of these granted , confirmeth the argument in hand : the latter , the main cause we have undertaken . . ( and lastly ) concerning that great good service in the cause of religion , which is pleaded to have been done in former dayes , by the ministry so much decried by us , in this our nation : i confess that our great high priest , who is more able than priests taken from among men , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sufficiently to compassionate the ignorant , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and those that are [ led ] out of the way , ( heb. . . ) did so far shew mercy unto some , who in the simplicity and uprightness of their heart , suspecting no evil in such an action , comported ( i might say , compounded ) with the prelates for their ministerial functions , that he kept them faithful unto him in his work , and vouchsafed them the great honour of co-operating with them to the bringing home of souls unto god. but , . the number of these was but small , scarce exceeding the proportion of one of a city , and two of a tribe . out of the great cloud of prelatical priests ( for their ordination baptizeth them by that name , nor are they offended at it ) sathan rained upon the people , snares of idolatrous and superstitious conceits , and practises , without end : and in these snares of death the feet of the greater part of the poor ignorant souls in the nation , are taken , and held fast , to this day . nor is it any breach of charity to conceive and think , that for the greatest part of these ministers , were in their course of preaching , more zealously bent to beget sons and daughters to the church of england ( in their notion ) than unto god ; although possibly ( to allay all seeming hardness in the saying ) they might suppose that men and women being made the true sons and daughters of the church of england , were hereby made the true sons and daughters of god also . for what may not ignorance , and interest , conspiring together , suppose ? doth not the apostle , speaking of men of corrupt minds , and destitute of the truth say , that they supposed gain to be godliness , admonishing timothy to with-draw himself from men of such importune and unreasonable suppositions , tim. . . but for the church of england , who shall live , when either of her sons , or fathers , will be able to declare her generation , or satifie the world , who , or what kind of creature she is ? . those few ministers of the prelatical sanction , whom christ was pleased to separate from their fellows , in blessing their labours to the begetting of sons and daughters unto god in the nation , were smoak in their noses , and as thorns in the eyes , of those who had intrusted them with a ministerial employment , being by them looked upon as a spurious and illegitimate brood of children , and as walking contrary to the interest , both of the spiritual lords , their fathers , and of the lady , the church of england , their mysterious mother : yea , for their laboriousness , zeal , and faithfulness unto god , and men , in the work of their ministry , which , by reason of the success that god gave unto them in the hearts and affections of the people , their ghostly fathers were not able , or rather , not willing to distinguish from schism , faction , popularity , &c. they were evil entreated , injuriously handled , vexed with summoners and apparitors , cited into their courts ( where they must , at their peril , appear at the day and hour appointed , how long and wearisome , how unseasonable , or expersive , how tempestuous , or dangerous soever their journey hither should be ) here to be falsely charged , to be vilified , and reproached , before all that are present , by chancelors , commissaries , &c. ( persons who many times know not their right hand from their left , in things appertaining unto god ; as meet to fit in judgement upon a learned and godly minister , as in the greek proverb , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as an asse is to play upon a harp ) and after all this , were sometimes silenced or suspended , deprived , degraded , imprisoned , yea constrained through an experimental sence of the implacableness of these bloody avengers , to commit themselves unto the seas , how inconvenient or dangerous soever , either through age , tenderness or weakness of constitution , present indisposition of body , or otherwise such journying were like to prove unto them , and to seek for a sanctuary in strange lands . so that the ministers that with greatest zeal and faithfulness planted the saving knowledge of god , and promoted the interest of true godliness in the nation , though ( being led out of the way by the false light of those times ) they owned the prelates in their usurpations , by accepting their office of ministry from their unhallowed hands , yet the prelates soon after , namely , as soon as they saw or heard , that they held a straight course in preaching the gospel , disowned them , and took from them , at least from many of them , and their will was the same towards them all , but that prudentials hindered the sameness of execution upon some , by silencing and suspending them , the exercise of that ministry , and so in effect , the ministry it self , which they had conferr'd upon them . so that by this time , if we respect the reality of things rather than the rigour or formality of words , the ministers we now speak of , were no ministers of a prelatical investure : for they who had invested them , devested them again . adde hereunto ( that which we may , not only in charity , but according to the guidance of reason it self , suppose their conscienciousness and loyalty unto god , in all other their wayes and actings considered ) that had they known or once suspected , the great evil of putting their heads under prelatical hands to receive an evangelical function from them , they would rather have suffered them to be taken from their shoulders , as john baptist's head was , by the hands of the common executioner . this being so , they were but in a very deminutive sense ministers of a prelatical ordination , nor ought they in reason , to be simply , or absolutely , termed such . for when the mind and will of a man are really set and bent against the doing of any thing whatsoever , that is sinful , in case he shall through ignorance , or mistake , do any thing which is sinful , this action is imputable unto him onely in the letter , not in the spirit of it : for so far as his will stood against it , and was not consenting to it [ that is , or as far as , it was sinful ] it was not properly , or in a moral and equitable consideration , his action , but rather to be charged upon the ignorance that was in him ; nothing that a man doth , being , in moral equity , and fairness of construction , chargeable upon him as his action , but onely what his will , and as far as his will , was consenting unto in the doing of it ; according to that of the apostle , ( who is not wont to flatter himself , or to extenuate , or deny his sinful infirmities at any time ) now if i do that , which i wovld not , it is no more i that do it , but sin that dwelleth in me , rom. . . yet further , the ministers of whom we now speak , & by whom much real good was done to the souls of many in the nation , applyed themselves wholly and intirely to the work of christ in preaching the gospel , and did not make merchandize of the word of god bywresting or perverting it at any time , as if it any where spake to the heart of the prelatique interest , or recommended any such officer , or ruler , unto the church of christ , as a prelate , or bishop , ( in the by-sense , or high sense of the word , or gave him power to obtrude what , and what numbers , of ceremonies , and apocryphal prayers , and prayers only so called , he pleased , upon the people of god , as well ministers , as others , upon severe penalties to be inflicted on those whose consciences were not wide enough to swallow them . now such ministers , who , though having received their office from prelates ; yet shall in the course and work of their ministry , wholly and constantly wave , and decline their cause from the one end of it to the other , never opening their mouths to cast respects , either upon their office , or any thing , that hath so much as one lineament of their image , or one letter of their superscription , upon it , and instead hereof , shall zealously and faithfully preach up jesus christ in the glory of all his offices , as the gospel asserteth and declareth them , which consequentially , is the preaching down of prelacy , as the bringing in of the ark of god unto dagon's temple , was the downfal and destruction of that idol ; such ministers , i say , that shall quit themselves in the way of their ministry , upon such termes as these , do constructively , and in effect , and with as much advantage to the glory of god , and edification of men , renounce their prelatical ordination , as if they should do it more litterally and formally . so then , all things weighed in the ballance of equity , the ministers , unto whom god gave the honour to triumph in christ , ( as the apostle's phrase is ( cor. . . ) and by whom to make manifest the savour of his knowledge amongst the inhabitants of this nation , were not ministers of a prelatical ordination ( in any compleat , direct , or thorough sence of the denomination ) but only in some such mysterious and obscure notion , as that , wherein the beast is termed , the beast which is not , and yet is , rev. . . they that were roundly , right down , without any abatement , or need of explication , such have , amongst them , in matters of true religion , sound knowledge , and piety towards god , reduced the generality of the nation to a morsel of bread : all those idolatrous and superstitious conceits , and practises , all that bloody ignorance and prophanesse , all that customary boldness in sinning , that hatred of goodness and good men , which are the nakedness and shame of the land , and render it obnoxious to divine displeasure , may justly call this generation of men , either fathers , or foster fathers , or both . argument v. many learned and good men have been , and many such at this day , are very confident , that ordination by bishops , in the high sense of the word , is regularly founded on the scriptures ; yea , and that there can be no lawful , or true minister any where created , where there is not the hand of such a bishop to sanctifie the action , and to raise it to that worth and dignity , that it may be meet to yeild the sacred fruits of a gospel-ministry . and it is generally known , and acknowledged , that ordination of ministers by bishops , in the upper signification of the word , hath been very antiently , and for many ages by-past , practised in the church , scarce any man questioning , or contradicting it . therefore why should the hearing of such ministers be now censured as unlawful ? answer . this argument calleth for the consideration of sundry particulars for it's full and due satisfaction : others , many have largely and substantially answered all that is pretended , and pleaded , from the scripture , in the behalf , either of the order or office of bishops , in the sence of the word lately specified , or of their sole power of ordination : so that as unto these , i shall be very cursory and brief , chiefly pointing at the heads of some few considerations , whereby it will be made manifest , that although all that the argument saith and pretendeth unto , should be granted as true , yet all will signifie little , or nothing , as to the proof of what is intended . therefore , . learning , is very neer of kin unto knowledge , if it be not the same . now knowledge , though it be a very useful and commendable endowment , yet it hath one bad property , ( which the apostle himself taketh , and giveth notice of , cor. . . ) it puffeth up ; that is , it is apt to lift men up into a confident conceit that there is more worth in them , than in deed and in truth there is . neither will a very good degree of goodness in the same subject , at many turns , and in many cases , prevent the operation of this evil property upon it . learned and knowing men , though good men , will too frequently assume more unto themselves , than by the assignment of god , or good reason , cometh to their share . the apostle paul plainly signifieth that god knew that he would have been exalted above measure through the abundance of revelations vouchsafed unto him , if the excessive heat of his propension in this kind had not been corrected and allayed by a messenger of sathan , sent and given unto him to buffet him , cor. . . . when men of learning and knowledge more than ordinary , shall reflect upon their own worth in this kind , and hold intelligence with their great parts and abilities ( as the best of men , thus accomplished , are apt to do , witness the great apostle paul himself , who told the corinthians , that though he was rude in speech [ meaning , as they thought , and talked of him ] yet not in knowledge , cor. . . see also eph. . . ) especially when they shall be conceited withal , that their line of knowledge and understanding is raised higher , than really it is ( which is a weaknesse frequently incident to the strongest of this geration ) , they are precipitately disposed to presume [ as our former translation read it ; or , to be wise ; or , to favour , as the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , oft signifieth ] above that which is written ( cor. . . ) and so to embrace ( sometimes ) and to assert , with great confidence , such notions and tenents for truths , which the word of truth , diligently consulted , and well understood , absolutely disclaimeth ; yea , and which sober and sound reason it self will not brook . there is scarce any age but hath yielded instances more than enough to confirm the truth of this observation . the best records of antiquity , yea , the most un-questioned writings of the most learned and devout fathers themselves proclaim it aloud ; in which it appears that they did not alwayes build silver , gold , or precious stones , upon the true foundation , but sometimes , hey , stubble and wood , in their stead . neither is the scripture it self barren of sayings , and passages of story , which look the same way . but my intended brevity forbids me to insist upon quotations , where they may be omitted with as little damage to the cause in hand , as they may upon the present occasion : and as for those , which the works and writings of the fathers afford upon the account , they have been already drawn out , and presented unto the world by others : yea , who is there but either knoweth , or hath heard from those who do know , that seldom or never , did any error , that proved of any dangerous , or sad consequence , 〈◊〉 up amongst christians , but might call some person of choice parts a●● learning , father ? the common saying ( which carrieth a truth in it worthy more consideration , than is by many given to it ) is , nullum est magnum ingenium sine mixtura insaniae , there is no great wit , but hath a mixture [ or allay ] of madness in it . so that men of great learning and parts are no infallible oracles to consult about a dubious opinion , whether it be an error , or no. . the notion , conceit , or opinion of an hyper-presbyterian episcopacy , is of such a calculation , nature , and import , that without the assistance of , or any monitory suggestion from sathan , it is as apt to breed , and to be ingendred , between a corrupt ambitious heart , and an head rank of wit , and learning , as the bull-rush is to grow out of the mire . some indeed have laid the mischievous brat at sathan's door , confidently avouching him , by reason of the enormous , and even supernatural antipathy in it unto god , and true godliness , to be the father of it : but herein they rather flatter , than accuse , or charge , that unhappy parcel of flesh and blood , which first gave warmth and formation unto it in the womb of their brain . and whereas some , expert in the records of antiquity , carry up the day of the dawning of it upon the christian world , to the year after christ , or thereabouts ; others , seeming as capable as they of the same pretension , bring it down to about the year ; the truth is , that though both these calculations of the nativity of it , especially the former , give it the oppornity and advantage of a long and specious prescription , yet the bewitching complexion of it considered , together with the amorous inclinations towards such objects , so frequently found in pregnant wits , and large endowments , which are apt to afford men lively hopes of enjoying them , it may rather seem strange that it is not more ancient , than either of the dates mentioned will allow it to be , and , in respect of time , nearer to some apostolical institution . it seem's ( indeed ) that even in the dayes of the apostles , there was one ( whom the apostle john call's , diotrephes , ep. . ver . . ) that had an episcopal embryo , an unform'd conception of a bishoprick , in his heart ; for he did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , loved a lordly superiority over , or amongst his christian brethren : but for want of an artificial head ( as is probable ) to give unto this natural conception its specifical and due form , it proved an abortion , and like the untimely fruit of a woman , which never seeth the light of the sun. it is no where found that diotrephes ever was a formal bishop , although he acted the part of a bishop in not suffering the writings of an apostle to take place against his own interest , in the church , john ep. . vers . . . the notion of episcopacy ( in the lofty sense of the word ) being once started , though by one person only , in the church , and brought into consideration and discourse amongst christians , it was easie to prophesie , plures annabunt thynni , & cetaria crescent : more tunies will come swimming to the bait , and that the generality of men , whose gifts and parts of learning , wit , &c. were paramount to those of the ordinary sort of their brethren , understanding themselves more capable , and likely than others , to ascend the throne of this honour , in case it were once built , and well setled in the church , would be very diligent and studious in finding out all colourable and plausible pretences to commend such an office unto the people , and to perswade them that it would conduce much to their christian welfare , if they did live under it , and subject themselves unto it . and though there have been many , both in ancient , and later dayes , conscientious and learned , that had not the mettal in their foreheads ( wherewith the prelatical advocates amongst us , have , more generally at least , steeled theirs ) to obtrude the office we speak of , upon the world , under the high and indisputable title of jus divinum ; yet were they so far overcome with the enticing sweetness of the morsel , as to swallow it as lawful , though of humane preparation and contrivance . never did there a dead body , or carkass , falling on the earth , by the scent and favour of it , more effectually draw the eagles together about it , than the pleasant notion and conceit of the episcopal dignity , having once been named in the christian church , allure and engage many persons of eminent gifts and abilities , age after age , in the maintenance , approbation , and commendation of it . they are not like to speak evil of dignities , who live in hope and expectation of enjoying them themselves . so that all circumstances duely weighed , the great multitude of learned assertors of the cause of prelacy , is but a slender argument to prove , either the goodness , or lawfulness of it . who is he ( saith the son of sirach ) that hath been tryed by gold , and found perfect ? ecclus . . . . as for the arguments and grounds , which these learned disputers commonly levie , and urge from the scriptures , to compel the judgments and consciences of men to a submissive and quiet acknowledgement , that their high places and functions in the church , are of kin to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( acts . . ) the image which fell down from jupiter , and that they also came from heaven , and are supported by the stately and strong pillar of jus divinum ; the truth is , that being weighed in the ballance , i do not say of accurate reason , but of common sense it self , they would be found too leight to balace the floating vessel , wherein that proud lady , episcopacy , with all her triobular accoutrements , is imbarqued ; yea , and were it not for some poor relief , ever and anon brought in from the shattered and sophisticated records of after ages , scarce one decree above ridiculous . i shall in few words , give you a taste , though not of the letter , or words , ( this being a part that cannot be acted , but on a larger stage , than we are now upon ) but of the spirit , strength , and substance , of some of their chief arguings from the scriptures ; by which you may give a neer guess how little their longsome dissertations and discourses upon the point signifie . from eph. . , , &c. they reason to no more purpose than thus : christ , when he ascended up on high — gave gifts unto men : and he gave some apostles , — some , pastors and teachers , &c. ergo he gave some diocesan bishops . but if such bishops as these were given by christ at his ascension , why should the apostle hide them , either behind the apostles , or behind his pastors , as if he were ashamed of them ? for the great officers we now speak of , are at a great loss amongst which of the officers , expressely named by the apostle , they should seek for their divine institution , or donation by christ unto the church . one while , when their courage is up , they claim high , and will needs find their institution in , and together with , the apostles , as their predecessors , under whom their successors also ( as they plead ) who they cannot ( being so affectionately convinc'd through the in-evidence of the thing ) but presume themselves , and all of their order , to be , were comprehended in the same institution with them . otherwhile , fearing such a pretence as that , to be too obnoxious to the incredulity of all considering and un-ingaged men , they fall lower , and judge it more passable to take up with pastors and teachers , and content themselves with part and fellowship with them in their institution . thus we see our spiritual lords wandring up and down to seek a divine institution for their high functions and dignities : but it is no marvel if they cannot find that which is not . notwithstanding they knock hard at several other doors for relief , but none openeth unto them , nay , they are all made fast with bars of iron against them . from these words of the apostle to timothy , ( tim. . . ) as i besought thee to abide still at ephesus , when i went into macedonia , &c. in conjunction with those , lay hands suddenly on no man , &c. ( tim. . . ) they conclude , therefore timothy was made bishop of ephesus , a diocesan bishop , by paul. whereas the express tenour of the words , i besought thee to abide still at ephesus , riseth up ( as it were ) with manifest indignation against such an inference , as might be shewed and proved at large , but that this hath been lately done to the stopping of all mouths , that have either ingenuity or conscience , belonging to them a . holy and zealous men , in both which qualifications timothy excelled , need no beseeching or exhorting , to abide , or reside , upon their bishopricks , or to attend the cure of souls committed unto them . or if they will understand the place either of timothie's being made bishop of ephesus , or of his accepting the bishoprick hereof , being offered unto him by paul , they shall do well , and un-like themselves , to follow his example , and not to be made bishops , until they be sought unto , and desired to accept of the honour . besides , timothy was an evangelist , tim. . . and so by vertue of his office , had a right of power to do all those canonical actions , as laying on of hands , &c. which our high assuming bishops appropriate to their apocryphal functions . therefore neither doth this scripture take any pity at all upon their miserable cause . they shew themselves the sons of impertinency also when they discourse unto us , titus . . as if this text had somewhat to say for them , the words being only these : for this cause left i thee in crete , that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , and ordain [ or rather settle , or place , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] elders in every city , as i had appointed thee . it is plain from the words , that titus was left [ not seated , or setled ] in crete by paul , for such business , or such services unto the churches there , which might be dispatched within the space of a few months . and that he did not make his abode here many months , at least with paul's consent , and that paul intended to send for him away from hence , the winter following , or rather before , is evident from chap. . vers . . and from other passages in the writings of this apostle , it appears , that being called back by him from crete , he imployed him otherways , sending him up and down to several churches , in several countries upon occasion : nor is there the least mention any where found of his returning again unto crete at any time after , nor is there ( indeed ) the least probability of it . therefore our diocesan advocates vex and trouble this scripture also ( as they do several others ) to no purpose ; this with all the rest solicited in their cause , crying aloud unto them with one voice , depart from us , we know you not . he that desire further conviction that neither timothy , nor titus , were ever made bishops ( in the now-ruling sence of the word ) may receive it in abundance ( together with the knowledge of many other things concerning that generation of men , which would much enlighten the darkness of these times ) by the perusal of a treatise lately published by mr. w. prynne esquire , under the title of , the vn-bishoping of timothy and titus , &c. this considered , it is no great marvel , that learned men , more generally , who bare good will ( more than enough to the prelatical interest and cause , not onely in a times of a more ancient date , but even in latter years also , yea , within less than . years , all the bishops , arch-bishops , arch-deacons , and prelatical clergy , themselves in this very nation , a esteemed it their wisdom , to stick in the inferior tenure of jus humanum for the episcopal dignity , fearing ( as it seems , or however , as they had cause to fear ) that jus divinum would be an adversary to it , and overthrow it . i crave leave , upon the occasion before us , to acquaint the reader with a very memorable passage ( if he hath not heard it formerly ) of an arch-bishop in scotland , who in a recantation publickly made in the synod of fisse , anno. . professed ex animo , from his soul , that bishops and ministers by god's word were all equal , and the very same ; that the hierarchy and superiority of bishops over other ministers , hath no foundation at all in the word of god , but was a meer humane institution long after the apostles times , from whence the antichristian papacy of the bishop of rome , hath both it's rise and progress : and that for . years la past , it hath been the chiefest instrument of persecuting , and suppressing the truth and saints of god , in all countries and kingdoms , as all historians manifest . the name of this great exemplar ( worthy to be had in everlasting remembrance ) was , if my author . mistakes not , patrick adamson . but even this man , though he was at last one of a thousand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in his repentance , yet was he first one also of many thousand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , who suffer themselves to be overcome of the tempting splendor of that new-divised worldly thing under an old spiritual name , commonly called bishoprick : so that he also beareth witness , as well to the truth of the particular in hand ( acknowledging in effect , that the scriptures are perverted and wrested by those who make them speak , either for bishops , or arch-bishops ) as of the particular last proceeding , namely , that bishopricks , notwithstanding the scriptures , and they be at odds , have yet a bewitching property in them to make great scholars , and learned men , who are in a capacity of enjoying them , excessively in love with them . . nor hath it any thing of an argument in it worth the insisting on , to prove the lawfulness of attending the ministry of a prelatical clergy , that the professors of christianity , have more generally attended such a ministry ever since it had a being in the church , which is ( in our english phrase ) time out of mind ten times over ( as is on all hands confessed ) . for , . it being the counsel of the will of god ( as we gave knowledge formerly ) to suffer that plant of bitterness , episcopacy , ( in the anti-canonical sense of the word ) not onely to be planted in the soil of his church , but to take fast root , to thrive and prosper , and spread her branches far and neer , and bring forth fruit from many ages , before he intended the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that tearing of it up by the roots , ( of which our saviour prophesieth as the common doom of all plants in the church which should be planted by men , and not by his heavenly father , matth. . . ) he judged it meet , and well comporting with that his counsel , to suffer the generality of christian professors , to be so far deluded by the fair flourishes , and enticing pretences , of those who designed the setting up of the episcopal government over them , as to yield their necks unto the yoke , and so to conform themselves to all the constitutions , and magisterial injunctions thereof in matters of religion . for unless the multitude of professors had been both at first , and for many after ages , so far bewitched , as willingly to bow dow at the feet of this exotique government , it could never have taken that deep rooting in the world which now it hath done , nor made so much work for the right hand of heaven , to rid the world fairly and fully of it , as now it is like to do . for though the compliance of many kings , and princes , and nobles , yea , and of many wise and learned men , yea , and of some worthy and good men also , with it , were necessary ( as god esteemeth things necessary in such cases ) to make the mountain of it so strong , as ( according to his permissive decree ) it hath been , for many ages by-past , in many parts of the christian world , and is at this day in many , yet had not the generality , or main body of christian people fallen in also , and made one and the same shoulder with them to support it , it had ( in davids comparison ) been as grass upon the house top , which withereth before it groweth up , wherewith the mower filleth not his hand , nor be that bindeth sheaves , his bosome . so that the general practice of christians in receiving their spiritual food from a prelatical ministry , thought continued for many generations , yet the practisers having all along suffered a spirit of slumber to grow upon them , ( for the tares were sown , whilest men slept , matth. . . ) and god not judging it meet to awaken them , their example signifieth little as to the justification of the practise . . as the apostle saith of the poor gentiles , that they were carried away to dumb idols , even as they were led , cor. . . so ( the truth is ) the common sort of christians , through an un - christian , yea , an unman like , oscitancy and supiness of spirit , have been in all ages ( and are at this day ) exceeding apt to be carried away with opinions and tenents , even as they were , and are , led by their teachers . it is a right saying of an heathen , omnes malumus credere ; quam judicare : there is scarce any of us all but naturally had rather , even in matters of a moral ) and much more , in things of a spiritual , and religious ) concernment , believe what others , whom we can have any pretence , or colour , to think well of , shall commend for truth unto us , than put our selves to the labour and travel of a serious and district examination whether it be truth , or no. offendt plerosque limae labor ; & mora : to work at the file , is both toylsome , and tedious , and few there be that love it . this was observed long since , by him that said , many loth to weary themselves with searching out the truth , turn in to the errors next at hand a yea , it was the saying of one that had been a teacher of the romish faith , that had not god raised up , and sent luther amongst them , they should have perswaded , and brought the people to eat hey , so then the spiritual guides and teachers of christian people having been ( for may generations ) ministers made such with prelatical hands , and justifying this ministry before their people , as legitimate and approved of god , both by their accepting it , and by their acting in the vertue , and by the authority of it , ( besides all occasional pleadings for it otherwise ) it is but matter of course ( as it were ) that their people should swallow it , and make no question about it for conscience sake . . the peoples attendance upon an episcopal ministry anciently , and near unto the times when episcopacy was first conceived , and brought forth in the christian church , was nothing so broadly inconsistent with the rule of the gospel , as now it is , but by many degrees more tollerable , and defensible , than that attendance upon a ministry of the same denomination , which is in these dayes exhibited unto it . the bishop that now is , ( i mean , that is now commonly so called ) is another kind of creature , specifically distinct from those that were so called , about the times when the name ( in the high signification of the word ) was first heard in the christian world : for if the best records of antiquity signifie any thing , the bishops we speak of , at , and some while after their first original , were chosen by the people , who were to live under their inspection and government , in conjunction with their ministers . so that those ministers , who were made afterwards by these bishops , were , in a sence ( viz. mediately , and remotely ) made by themselves ( i mean by the people themselves ) in and by that act of theirs , whereby they close their bishops , and gave them power ( i do not mean , a lawful power , for such was not in them to give ) to ordain ministers for them . now then if they did attend upon ministers episcopally ordained , upon the tearm specified , their example no wayes paralel's , no wayes countenceth , much lesse justifieth , the practise of any in these dayes , who from time to time sit under a prelatical ministry ; considering that the bishops , which the world now affordeth , are of a quite different extraction from those in ancient times , far more spurious and degenerate , the people of god being so far from chusing , or defiring them , that they make their way by an high hand to make themselves lords over them . . ( and lastly , for this ) as for those , who have dealt so effectually with their judgements and consciences , as to make themselves both able and willing , to conceive , that there can be no lawful ministry , but that which springs from under a pair of episcopal hands ; the conceit is so prodigiously importune and unreasonable , that to engage in any solemn or serious opposition to it , may seem to be a work proper onely for him that hath little else to do . nevertheless , because i find that there are not wanting amongst us , who have suffered themselves to be baptized in the spirit of this conceit , ( to the disparagement of their judgments , to the ensnaring of their consciences , and who knowes to what publique inconvenience besides ? ) to set them at liberty from the bands of this inchantment , i mast heartily and seriously recommend unto them the diligent perusal of that elaborate and learned discourse of mr. w. prynne lately mentioned , once and again ) published the second time with some enlargements , not long since , under the title of , the vn-bishoping of timothy , and titus , &c. in this discourse , besides that which is projected in chief ( the vindicating the holiness and honour of jus divinum , from having any thing to do with the dunghill-institution of the episcopal dignity ; for so it deserveth to be abased for exalting it self so high as to claim jure divino ) the reader shall find the priviledge of ordaining ministers , challenged by that order of men we speak of , as incommunicable unto all others , vested by god himself in persons of another order , and not at all in them considered ( as they use to consider themselves in the businesse ) in their elevation . argument vi. some again plead ; that christ hath purchased a liberty for all his , to seek , and to receive , their christian edification where-ever they can find it , and where-ever they shall desire to seek it with any hope of finding it . so that they are not tied in conscience unto any one sort , or kind of ministers , but may as lawfully , and without sin , hear as oft as they please , even such teachers , whose entrance into their office of ministry is most abominable and hateful unto cod , as those , who enter by that door , which he hath sanctified , and appointed for this purpose , and so come to the great work of the ministry with abundance of his blessing upon them : especially they plead , that the hearing of the vilest of ministers is sin-free , if they deliver any thing that is good for edification , and this be received : and in case they utter any thing of a contrary import , that this be rejected . answer . this argument savours of a spirit that hath flesh and bones relating to it , and these covered with a skin , which it desires to keep whole to sleep in . but , . the liberty purchased for us by christ , is an un-valuable treasure , a benifit and priviledge that passeth all humane understanding . but as in the true and right notion of it , it highly accommodates the spirit , making it abundantly fruitful , as well in righteousness , as in joy , and peace ; yea , and in some respect , accommodates the flesh also , as namely by easing it of the insupportable burthen of the levitical ceremonies : so in a corrupt and false notion , it hath been from the begining , and is at this day , made a pretence of much unworthiness , and a cloak and covering for many uncomly and sinful doings . the apostle admonishing the galatians not to use that liberty whereunto they had been called by christ , for an occasion unto the flesh , a [ that is , for the encouraging and strengthning of themselves in any carnal practises , or wayes unbecoming the gospel ] plainly implieth , that there is a great aptness in professors of the gospel to stumble at this stone , and to think they may lawfully do many things under the covert of their christian liberty , at which otherwise their consciences would boggle , and stand more in awe of the word of god restraining them . whereas the incomparable priviledge of the liberty purchased for us by christ , engageth us unto all things , which make , either for the honour of the gospel , or for the comfor , peace , and salvation of men , upon higher , and more awful , and sacred terms , than otherwise we had been ; yea , and upon the same terms , to refrain and forbear all things , though otherwise lawful ( if they be not necessary also ) which are contrary unto , either the one , or the other . this is the plain and unquestionable doctrine of the scriptures , and is accordingly taught by the generality of ministers learned in them . now then , . the hearing of a prelatical ministry by those , who judge themselves strong , being a great offence , and stumbling , to their weak christian brethren and this being known unto them so to be , the practise is as diametrally repugnant to the law of christian liberty , as lightly a practise can be . for this law ( as the great apostle hath drawn it up ) is , that christians by love should serve one another b now what this apostle speaketh elsewhere concerning material meat , is , in the case before us , altogether as applicable to the spiritual meat , or food , of christians ; nay , the misdemeanor in this case , is much greater , than that mentioned in the other . but if thy brother be grieved with thy meat , now walkest thou not charitably c [ that is , according to the emphasis and weight of the phrase , as expositors observe in sundry the like in scripture ] thou walkest exceeding uncharitably . for if it be objected , that we are not bound by any rule of charity , to forbear our spiritual food , for the offence of any , as we are our temporal ; i answer , yes : in the like sense , and respect , in which we are bound in charity towards a weak brother , to forbear temporal meat , we stand bound to forbear spiritual also . if a brother were so weak , as to be offended that i should eat any meat whatsoever in case of the utmost necessity for the support of my life , when i cannot come at any other , in this case i were not to regard his being offended , but to eat the meat which god hath given me to releive me in my extremity , howsoever : the reason is , because in such a case i stand bound in duty towards god to preserve my life , which i cannot do in any other way , but only by eating such meat , my eating of which may ( as the case supposeth ) offend my brother . but when i may relieve my hunger , and sustain my life , by several kinds of meat , one of which my brother judgeth it not lawful for me to eat , but taketh no offence at my eating any of the other , if in this case i should eat that which offendeth him , i should not ( as the apostle saith ) walk charitably towards him : but destroy him , and so abuse my christian liberty , and sin against christ . there is altogether the same consideration in chusing our spiritual nourishment , and means of edification . suppose we judge that we may , yea , and that we do edifie by resorting to a prelatical ministry ( about which we shall notwithstanding a little demur before the close of this answer ) yet knowing that our resorting hither , is an offence and scandal to many good christians , though weak , god having afforded us great variety otherwise of worthy means for our edification ( as hath been proved formerly ) a such a practise ( were it in it self lawful , yet ) being against charity , is an abuse of our christian liberty , a kind of wanton and contemptuous trampling upon the peace and comfort of our weak brethren ( who may be as precious in the sight of god as our selves , notwithstanding their weaknesse ) and consequently , must needs be a sin highly provoking the lord christ , indeed if god had commanded us to hearken unto this generation of ministers , what means soever besides he should vouchsafe unto us for our edification , or should have threatned us with the vengeance of eternal fire , if we did not hear them , in this case should any person be offended at us for hearing them , he must bear the burthen of his offence himself for we should be innocent ) but if under the circumstance mentioned , we shall comport , in our attention with them , & a weak brother shall be offended at our comportance in this kind ; god will require his offence at our hand . an offence may be taken at the performance of a duty ; but cannot be given but by an act of liberty . again , the misdemeanor of offending a weak brother by receiving our spiritual meat from the hand of a prelatical servitor , is in this respect more sinful , than to offend him in eating any material meat would be , namely , that the offence given in the former case , is by an action or practice that is in it self , and out of the case of scandal , unlawful ( as hath been proved at large ) whereas in the latter case , the offence is given by an action , which simply , and in it self considered , is lawful : for every creature of god ( saith the apostle , speaking of material meat ) is good , and nothing to be refused , &c. tim. . . . it hath been proved in the preceding considerations , that the frequent recourse of godly persons to prelatical ministers in the publick exercise of their ministry , is , in several other respects , besides that of scandal and offence given unto weak christians , a manifest breach of the law of chrity ; as . because it encourageth such ministers in an evil way , and hideth repentance from their eyes ; whereas their withdrawing from them , is a proper means to make them better acquainted with themselves , and to help them to be ashamed of their babylonian preferment . . because by countenancing and strengthning the hand of these men in their way , they help to harden the hearts of their great lords and masters also in the evil of their way , which is more provoking in the sight of god than the other . . because by honouring the ministers of the prelatical creation , with their dependance on them for the words of eternal life , and high concernments of salvation , they keep up and strengthen the interest of the prelates in the hearts and minds of the people , and so make the mountain of their power the more strong and durable ; and consequently , bring upon their own heads the guilt of being accessary to all the outrages of persecution and cruelty , wherein this generation of men shall magnifie themselves against the saints of the most high. . because by accepting of ministers of an episcopal recommendation and investiture , they wrong and weaken the right-vested by christ in his respective churches , for the choice and ordination of their respective ministers . these particulars we argued more at large , and brought the truth of them into a clear light in the foregoing considerations : therefore we only mention them here . the reader may please to review consideration , , - , , . so that the liberty purchased for the saints by christ , is so far from being a reasonable ground whereon to justifie or warrant the practice condemned in these papers , that it is a most sovereign disswasive and retractive from it : for the greater love christ hath any wayes manifested unto them , he hath laid so much the greater and stronger engagements upon them to love others , and more especially those of the houshold of faith ; and consequently , to refrain all wayes and doings that are inconsistent with this affection towards the one or the other . . ( and lastly ) the liberty purchased for the saints by christ , was intended by him only for their comfort , welfare and peace , not for their prejudice or loss : therefore any man to plead this liberty to embolden himself unto any such practice , whereby he is likely , or rather cannot but prejudice and endammage himself , and this in matters of greatest concernment unto him , must needs be an abuse of this liberty . now that for the servants of god to attend upon , or ( which is the same ) to hold communion with such a ministry which is no where approved , or sanctified by christ in his word , but obtruded upon christians with an high hand , by those who are confederate both in spirit & practice , with the scarlet whore sitting upon the scarlet-coloured beast , and drunken with the blood of the saints a ( a description which belyeth not the prelatical priesthood , or ministry ) must needs have a direct and strong tendency to their real loss and detriment , may be thus brought out of darkness into light . the great jealousie and fierce wrath of god are again and again reveated from heaven , not only against the antichristian beast himself , that had two horns like a lamb , yet spake as a dragon b &c. but also against all his complices and followers , against all his worshipers , and those that should communicate with him in his sins [ that is , in any of tho●● sins which are more appropriately his , his , as he claims to be vicar general unto christ , and to umpire matters of christian religion and divine worship , as he pleaseth , and by what penalties , as well civil , as ecclesiastick , he pleaseth ] and the third angel followed them , saying , with a loud voice , if any man worship the beast and his image , and receive his mark in his fore head , or in his hand , the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god , which is poured out without mixture [ that is , without any allay of mercy or compassion ] into the cup of his indignation , and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone , in the presence of the holy angels , and in the presence of the lamb : and the smoak of their torment ascendeth up for ever . and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image , and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name c . a most dreadful denunciation and warning ! enough to make both the ears of him that shall hear it , to tingle ; and to prevail with any man that loves not the vengeance of hell fire , or to have god his enemy in the fiercest of his indignation , to keep off , at least , the thousand six hundred furlongs distance , spoken of ( rev. . . ) from all communion with the beast , babylon , the false prophet , and scarlet whore , in all their lewd and detestable doings . and whereas several other things of moment might be observed from the passages now cited , i shall at present ) take notice of these two only . first , that the most severe and dreadful vengeance here described , is not threatned against any inward defection , or leaning in heart , mind or judgement , towards the wayes and practices of the beast , but against any outward compliance with him , as in the receiving his mark in the forehead , or in the right hand , &c. so that it is in vain for men to plead the integrity and goodness of their heart , if in their outward man they conform to any of his abominations . secondly , that the holy ghost expresseth those compliances , or those acts of compliance , with the beast , against which the most heavy doom described is threatned , in words and phrases that are obscure and of difficult interpretation ( as the worshipping of the beast and his image , the receiving his mark in the forehead , or in the right hand ) that so the saints might be made jealous and fearful , not only of such actions und wayes wherein they should broadly and right-down symbolize , and comport with him , but even of those also , which have the least and lightest appearance of such a comportment . men use to be more circumspect in their way , and more careful of keeping themselves at a sufficient distance from ditches , precipices , and places of danger , when they walk in the twilight , the light of the sun is apt to make them more bold and venturous . and it is the express will of god concerning us , that we abstain , not only from that which is really and unquestionably evil , but from all appearance of evil a likewise , yea , and from whatsoever is of an inviting , tempting , and alluring nature unto evil b ; yea , and from whatsoever we are not reasonably , and well assured in our judgements and consciences , that it is not evil c now that our ordinary and frequent attendance upon persons commissioned and sent by prelates to preach , is a countenancing of , and consequently , a communicating with , as well the one , as the other , in their sins ( with the prelates in their blasphemous usurpations and incroachments upon the high prerogative of christ ; with the preachers , in their consenting unto their masters in those sacrilegious impieties , by dividing the spoile with them , and accepting a ministerial dignity from and under them ) hath been demonstratively proved formerly d . and the sin of prelates in claiming and exercising such a power in , and over the churches of christ , which is competent only unto christ himself , and accordingly appropriated unto him by god , being ( for kind ) one of the most notorious and stigmatical sins of the babylonish or antichristian beast ; they who justifie , or any wayes communicate with the prelates in the sin , justifie the beast also , and communicate with him in the same , and consequently , bring themselves under the dint of those most terrible threatnings from heaven , which are bent against him , and all that bird him god speed in the way of his antichristian abominations ( as we lately heard ) neither are they who quarrel with him , or declare themselves with the greatest zeal and passion against him , about other matters wherein themselves are , or ( probably ) may be some wayes concerned , hereby either made , or declared innocent from the great offence of complying with him , and justifying him . for thieves may fall out , and draw swords upon one another about dividing the prey , and yet-justifie one the other in following the same wicked course of thieving : and sampson's foxes were tyed together by their tails , when their heads looked contrary wayes . in like manner , men may preach and write with a keen stile , yea and make most severe laws against him , that calleth himself christ vicar [ that is , antichrist a ] and against those that profess a religious subjection unto him ( whom we call papists ) and yet may symbolize , and be in the same condemnation with him , if they claim or exercise , yea , or maintain and justifie that kind of power which he claims ( though over greater numbers of men ) and exerciseth , but in much a larger sphere than they ; a power ( i mean ) of imposing upon men what they please in matters of religion , or of faith and worship , under what penalties they please also . the claim of this power over the chrictian world , ( or , i might say , over the whole world ) constitutes him that maketh the claim , whoever he be , that notorious and grand anti-christ , or vice christ , of whose coming into the world in his season , the christians in the dayes of the apostles paul and john , had heard , b and whose history ( his rise , progress , exploits , continuance , together with his most doleful and dreadfull catastrophe , or end ) is prophetically set forth by these apostles ; by the former more briefly , thess . . by the latter , more largely in the book of the revelation . and whosoever they be that claim the like power , though it be over a smaller part of men , and over those only , who live under their civil government and power , ( as most rulers and governours that are called christian , do ) they justifie that very power in the nature or kind of it , the claim and exercise of which is the very life and soul , and quickning spirit of antichrist emphatically , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to called : and consequently , in this respect , may ( with too good propriety of speech ) be termed antichristian , or antichrists of an inferiour order . but this by the way . from the late premises it plainly enough appeareth , that the lending of our ears and understandings , from time to time , to a ministry of a spurious and earthly descent , and which the prelates ( rank of the spirit that breatheth in antichrist the great ) may truly call theirs , is a constructive justification of this antichrist , and that in his fundamental wickedness ( as was even now hinted ) and so exposeth us unto danger of partaking with him in his plagues : and therefore cannot be encouraged , or led unto it by the sweet genius of the liberty purchased for us by christ ; this ( as hath been shewed ) most effectually disswading and drawing us aside from all actions and wayes , that are of any threatning or dangerous consequence unto us . secondly , whereas the argument pleadeth that the benefit of edification may lawfully be sought after , and received , from any ministry whatsoever , not only in the reformed churches , but even among papists themselves , as from jesuites , fryars , &c. i answer ; . that evil ought not to be done , for the compassing or obtaining of any good whatsoever . the great apostle being reported to affirm the contrary , rejects the report with great indignation , as an unworthy slander , rom. . . and no marvel ; it being repugnant even to the light of nature ( as might be shewed from the sayings of some of her prophets ) that the attainment of that which is good , should be endeavoured by unlawful wayes : the reason whereof might be insisted on , but that we are in hast . now it bath been formerly argued , and proved , by considerations not a few , that to attend upon any ministry , which is of an apocryphal and sinful erection , and consequently derogatory unto christ , and his care and faithfulness over the house of god , whatsoever our ends or expectations may be , in , or from such our attendance , is unlawful , and displeasing unto god , and more especially , and unquestionably , in the case of scandal given to weak christians . no goodness of ends or intentions , will make atonement for a sinful action . . though edification be more necessary , and of greater concernment to be endeavoured and sought after by a christian , than his daily bread , yet god having provided orderly and regular means , and these every way sufficient for his obtaining it , ( as hath been with greatest evidence proved from the scriptures * ) he is not to please himself with breaking the divine appointment on this behalf , or to be his own carver , when god hath set out a meet and full allowance for him ; no whit more , than with seeking his daily bread by indirect and unwarrantable practices , when as there are honest wayes and means to supply him in this kind , which have the blessing of god annexed by promise unto them , and he well capable of the use of them . the holy ghost chargeth it upon the saints as a special duty and service for the honour of christ , that they observe a decorum , and comely order in their church assemblies , and in managing the ordinances and holy institutions of god. let all things be done decently , and in order b . and the apostle paul signifies to the colossians that he rejoyced , beholding , though onely in spirit , ( for he was now absent in body ) their order c . and titus was left by him in crete to put things in order , or ( as the word signifieth ) to set matters at rights , in the churches there d . now as it is a manifest breach of order , when a wife is disobedient to her own husband , her obedience unto him being fit and comely ( as the holy ghost himself hath adjudged it , coloss . . . ) so is it no lesse disorderly for any person , who hath freely embodyed himself in a church of christ , the members whereof ought to submit themselves one to another in the fear of the lord ( ephes . . . pet. . . ) and again , to serve one another in love , gal. . . to build up themselves in their most holy faith , jude vers . . to obey those that are over them in the lord , and to esteem them very highly in love for heir work sake , thes . . , . heb. . . not to forsake the assembling of themselves together , but to exhort one another , heb. . . not to make rents or divisions in their body , cor. . . or to cause offences , rom. . . ( with several other things of like import with these ) it is ( i say ) disorderly in the highest for any member being under such sacred obligations as these , unto his body , or fellow-members , to turn his back upon them , to abandon their communion , to forsake their holy assemblies , and under a pretence of christian liberty to seek after edification , to betake himself from time to time unto strange teachers ( especially being of an infamous and polluted order ) and to frequent congregations of a politique constitution , and worldly complexion , in the name of churches of christ . now for any man to expect edification by violating the order , which christ hath established in his churches , is with as little reason , as to expect to gather grapes of thorns , or figs of chistles . . ( and lastly , for this ) were it granted , or supposed , that a person might gather as much , yea , or more , knowledge in the misteries of the gospel , from the lips of strange teachers in their ministry , than he was like to do by the teachings in his own church , and amongst those , from whom he hath sperated himself ; yet neither will this prove that he edifieth , as much , or more , as , or than , he might have done , by waiting upon god at the door of the lips of him , or them , who speak from god , in his own congregation . the silver , and gold , which an ungodly man possesseth , may be of the same kind of mettal , and of the same allay , and refining , with that , which is possessed by one that is righteous : yet the prophet david saith , that a little that a righteous man hath , is better [ that is , is serviceable to the owner upon a better account ] than the riches of many wicked * . the reason is , or may be , because the righteous mans little , being honestly gotten , or obtained , hath the blessing of god upon it , and is sanctified unto him : whereas the riches of wicked men , being either unjustly obtained , or unconscionably detained and kept up , or both , are polluted unto the owners , and have the curse of god cleaving to them , according as he threatneth , mal. . . i will curse your blessings . in like manner , the knowledg in things appertaining unto god , and relating unto the saving of the soul , which is obtained by breach of gospel-order , and by attending upon a ministry of an unclean parentage and descent , may , in the letter and notion of it , be altogether the same ( yea and possibly exceed it ) with that , which is gained by keeping close to god in his gospel-institutions & appointments , and received from those teachers , which the holy ghost hath set over us , or is dispensed in our own christian assemblies ; and yet come far short of it in the matter of true edification [ i mean , in building men up in faith and true holiness . ] for there is an aptness in knowledge , in conjunction with the weakness and vanity of the heart of man , to puff men up ( as the apostle speaketh ) which is as contrary to edification , as contrary may be , unless the flatulency and windiness of it be corrected by the grace and blessing of god. besides , the scripture in many known places , informeth us , that knowledge and ungodliness agree too well together ( many times ) in the same subject and soul . now though god may ( as hath been argued , and granted , formerly ) sometimes countenance and bless a ministry of a forreign plantation , to the conversion of some , and edification of others [ namely when , and whilst , the irregularity and unlawfuess of it remains un-discovered , so that people in the simplicity of their hearts resort unto it , and whilst other means of grace are scant , and gospel churches few , and remote ] yet there is little question to be made but that he much more rejoyceth over a ministry of his own contrivance and establishment , to work gracious and great things by it for the precious souls of men . and ministers , who receive their commission for their work from him , or in his way , are oft found ministers of the spirit , when as those of an exotique and earthly protrusion , though of greater gifts , and parts of learning , prove ( in comparison ) ministers onely of the letter . therefore they that go wondring , or wandring , after such teachers as these , upon a design or desire of christian edification , expose themselves by a like course , unto a like curse or disappointment , with those jews of old , concerning whom the prophet said , they shall commit adultery [ that is , they shall take unto them many wives ] and shall not increase a and as it is recorded of daniel and his three companions , who refused to defile themselves with the portion of the kings meat , or with the wine which he drank , chusing rather to eat pulse , and to drink water ; that their countenances appeared fairer , and fatter in flesh , then all the children that did eat the portion of the kings meat b : in like manner they , who out of conscience , shal content themselves with that spiritual diet , though it seems but spare and thin , which god judgeth meet to provide for them , are like to thrive better in the inner man , and to grow faster in grace , than those teachers , by whom the souls of the princes , and great men of the earth delight to be served . so the israelites in the wilderness , being dissatisfied with manna ( which yet was angels bread c ) villifying it as a light bread d , and complaining , that their soul was dryed away for want of better nourishment e , fell a lusting after flesh : wherewith though god was greatly provoked , yet they were not disappointed of their lust f , flesh was given them in great abundance g : but while the flesh was yet between their teeth , the wrath of the lord was kindled against them , and the lord smote them with an exceeding great plague h . and it is greatly to be feared , that such members of christian congregations , who kick against the spiritual provisions in those houses of god , to which they relate , as if there were neither marrow , nor fatness , nor any good nourishment in them , and think to feast sumpiuously with the world in their synagogues , and assemblies ; greatly ( i say ) it is to be feared , that the sweet morsels they shall eat here , will never digest kindly with them , nor breed any good blood , but turn to wind and water , and bring the displeasure of god upon them . therefore if edification be the end which men propose unto themselves in taking a liberty to travel to drink of the waters of abanah and pharpar , they might with much more wisdom , and likelihood of success , have consulted the obtaining of their desire in this kind , by staying at home , and contenting themselves with the streams of jordan . argument vii . lastly , some conceive they may lawfully hear those ministers whom these papers all along have endeavoured to perswade all good men to decline and turn away from , if they hear them onely as men well furnished by god with gifts and abilities for the preaching of the gospel , and shall not at all mind , or regard , their ordination ; neither whence it comes , nor whither it goes , nor by what , or whose , authority they stand forth to preach . for that it is lawful to hear any man preach the gospel , even without any ordination by men at all , if we perceive , or understand , him competently qualified for the work , is more generally , if not universally , acknowledged by knowing and understanding men . answer . . there is little question to be made but that it may be lawful to hear , yea oft , and from time to time , to hear such a man preach , or declare in words , and in a continued discourse ( for this i call preaching ) the counsel and mind of god in the gospel , who never received ordination ( in the common , and best known notion of the word ) from men ; yet under these conditions , or proviso's . . that he pretends not to an ordination , having never received any , true , or false , and the falshood of his pretence , or his lye in this case , is either known to us , or justly suspected . it is not worthy a christian , to countenance a liar , or a person justly suspected for such , in so sacred a work , as the dispensing the oracles of god. . that he hath not submitted to any mock ordination , or such which is irregular ( in the principal , or main of it ) for such an ordination is a meer nullity ( as was shewed soon after the beginning of this discourse ) in which respect , he that walketh under it , may well be taken for a non-ordained man. yet such a man is not to be countenanced , or honoured , with the presence of a christian , when he presumes ( not having first , by one means or other , testified his repentance for such a miscarriage ) to minister the glorious gospel of christ . for it is not meet that the sheep of christ should give ear to such a shepherd , who entreth not by the door ( that is , by christ , and according to his appointment ) into the sheep-fold , but climbeth up another way , joh. . , . compared . but this is the main part argued hitherto . . that we find him to be , in some degree at least , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , enabled by god to teach : which requireth , . some good acquaintance in the master veins of the body of the gospel : and . a convenient utterance , so as to be able to communicate the conceptions of his mind , unto the minds and understandings of those that hear him . to encourage any private christian to the exercise of prophesying , in any more publick way than amongst those of his own family , whom god hath not recommended unto his brethren , by the common donation of both these gifts unto him , especially the former , in some considerable proportion above the generality of his fellows , tendeth rather to the dishonour of the gospel , and to the disparagement of him that is encouraged upon such terms , than otherwise . . that he be a person of a modest , humble , sober , and grave spirit , of an inoffensive and exemplary behaviour , not under any observation or reproach for any thing scandalous or unchristian , in his course . if they shall undertake to preach christ , who are enemies unto him , ( as all those are who obey not his gospel , or will not suffer him to reign over them , luke . . ) they are not to be honoured or encouraged in such their undertaking , by those who are his friends . . ( and lastly ) that whilst we honour a private christian in his exercise of those good gifts , which god hath given him for our edification and comfort , we do not prejudice ( in the least ) that greater and more solemn ordinance of the ministry , which christ hath given as a singular blessing unto his churches ; nor any wayes discourage or grieve those , who are over us in the lord , and must give an account for our souls . the ordinances of christ are all necessary in their ( respective ) seasons , and amicably affected towards one another : there is imployment enough , and this honourable , for them all ; so that one needs not endamage or entrench upon the priviledges of another . these cautions and conditions observed , there is little question but that it is very lawful to attend upon the gospelexercises of a private person , or a man nor ordained ( in the common sense of the word ) for the work of the ministry , or of preaching : yet this proveth not ( as was even now briefly shewed ) that it is in like manner lawful to hear he preachings of a person , who hath so far neglected the honour and pleasure of his great lord and master christ , as to purchase leave and liberty , to preach the gospel , of those who have neither power to grant , nor power to deny , and least of all , power to sell , any such thing , but are intruders upon , and usurpers , yea , and prophaners of the holy priviledges both of christ and his people . . if it be unlawful to hear such ministers as these , as , or because they are prelatically ordained , it cannot be lawful to hear them as gifted men , or as persons well qualified , in respect of knowledge and utterance , to preach the gospel . for it is a general and true rule , that no particular or individual action , which is unlawful in respect of any one circumstance , can be made lawful by the innocency of never so many circumstances otherwise . nor is there any particular action so broadly unlawful , but hath some circumstance ( haply , many ) lawful enough relating to it , according to the saying , malum semper habitat in alieno fundo , evil alwayes dwells in a soyl that is none of its own ; meaning , that it still cleaveth unto somewhat that is ( naturally ) good . . ( and lastly , ) in case he that thinketh it lawful to hear the ministers we speak of , as men well accomplished with gifts for the work of preaching , though not as men sinfully ordained , should openly and publickly declare and profess , that he heareth them only in the former consideration , and at no hand in the latter , his act in hearing them ( i conceive ) would be much more excusable , both with god and good men ; but whether it would be wholly justified hereby , i somewhat doubt . if a man should bow down to , or before an image , although he should never so seriously protest and say , that he boweth not down to it , or before it , as it is silver , gold , wood , stone , or the like , nor as it is the workmanship of mens hands , but only as it putteth him in mind of god ; i believe this would not make him innocent of the great offence of violating the second commandment , where bowing down to an image is expresly forbidden : for no consideration put by man upon such an action , which is a direct breach of any commandment of god , can alter the property of it , or cause it to be no such breach . therefore if it be against the mind of god , that we should with our presence honour the teachings of such ministers , who come in this name unto us , from under prelatical hands , it is not our considering them as persons gifted for the ministry , when we do thus honour them , that will reconcile our acting in this kind with the mind , or will of god ; how much less , if we shall keep this our consideration to our selves , and within our own breasts ? for in this case , how shall our weak brother , who is offended at our hearing such ministers , come to know , but that we hear them upon the worst , and most offensive terms of all , namely , as preaching by vertue of their episcopal ordination , and so be offended much more ? again , how shall the ministers themselves whom we hear , not think but that we hear them as ministers of christ , rightly ordained , and so be strengthened or hardened in the evil of their way , upon a supposal of our concurrence in judgement with them , touching their ordination , and the goodness of the way by which they have entered into the ministry , if we hear them from time to time , without declaring or protesting against their ordination ? so that whoever they be , that judge it unlawful to hear them as prelatical ministers , have no reasonable ground to think that they may notwithstanding lawfully hear them as gifted men , unless they shall make their tongues the interpreters of their minds and intentions in the case . neither dare i warrant them that the loudest declaring of themselves in this kind , will warrant their practice in hearing them : but i really believe , that they will find it much cheaper of the two , and every way more commodious for them , wholly to wave the hearing of the men they wot of , than to make any such declaration . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e a socios christi vocat ●●bitiosos 〈◊〉 qui 〈◊〉 cultus , ●ue ac chri●●●s ipse , insti●●●erent . 〈◊〉 . b sociorum 〈◊〉 i.e. pa●rum 〈◊〉 qui nibil te 〈◊〉 , sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●ecum ●estoris specie , appellatione . 〈◊〉 in notis locum . a ignosci 〈◊〉 simpliciter 〈◊〉 antibus : 〈◊〉 inspiratio●●m vero , & ●●velationem ●●ctam , sine ig●●rantiae 〈◊〉 peccatur . ●ypr . ep. . a mr. w. prynn , vn-bishoping of timothy , &c. reprinted with ad●itions , anno. ● . ● . , , , 〈◊〉 . ( after the postscript . ) a see mr. w. prynne , vn-bishoping , &c. p. . . a a multi raedio investigandae veritatis , ad proximos divertunt errores . minut. felix . a gal. . . b gal . . c rom. . . adverbia necandi , ejus cui ●dhibentur contrarium significant . mede 〈◊〉 apoc. p. a consideration . a rev. . , . b rev. . . c rev. . . . . elsewhere the sore displeasure of god is declared ( threatning-wise ) against those that shall compo●● with this beast in his sins , rev. . . chap. , , , thes . . a thess . . . b prov. . ● . exod. . , . deut. . . ( with many other ; ) c rom. . , . d see consideration , and . a the word antichrist signifieth as well christ's substitute , deputy , vicar , or one that acteth in his place or stead , as one that is an adversary or enemy to him : although it be true , that he that acteth in his head , exercising such a power , which is appropriately his , & vested in him only , is his grand adversary , and must needs be so , as might be shewed at large . the preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as our best lexicons inform us , most properly signifieth , pro , vice , loco ; for , instead , or place [ of another ] and is in this sense frequently used in the new testament , matth . . luke . . jam. . . not is it ( i verily believe ) here so much as once used in an adversative 〈◊〉 yea , incomposition it is used in the like signification . acts . . and elsewhere . b thess . . , . john . . * see consideration . b cor. . . c col. . d tit. . * psal . . . a hosen . . b dan. , , c psal . d numb . e numb . . f psa . g numb . . h numb . . confidence dismounted. or a letter to mr richard resburie of oundle in north-hamptonshire, upon occasion, partly of a title page prefixed before a small treatise of his concerning election & reprobation, conflicting of six sermons preached by him about three years since, and lately published; the said title page bearing in front these words, some stop to the gangrene of arminianism, lately promoted by mr john goodwin, in his book intituled redemption redeemed; partly also, a short preface or epistle prefixed by the said mr resbury to that his treatise. / by the said john goodvvin, minister of the gospel. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) confidence dismounted. or a letter to mr richard resburie of oundle in north-hamptonshire, upon occasion, partly of a title page prefixed before a small treatise of his concerning election & reprobation, conflicting of six sermons preached by him about three years since, and lately published; the said title page bearing in front these words, some stop to the gangrene of arminianism, lately promoted by mr john goodwin, in his book intituled redemption redeemed; partly also, a short preface or epistle prefixed by the said mr resbury to that his treatise. / by the said john goodvvin, minister of the gospel. goodwin, john, ?- . , [ ] p. printed by john macock, for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd, and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley, london : . signed at end: octob. . ; john goodwin. annotation on thomason copy: "october. th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng resbery, richard, - . -- some stop to the gangrene of arminianism. goodwin, john, ?- . arminianism -- england -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no confidence dismounted. or a letter to mr richard resburie of oundle in north-hamptonshire,: upon occasion, partly of a title page prefixed goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion confidence dismounted . or a letter to mr richard resburie of oundle in north-hamptonshire , upon occasion , partly of a title page prefixed before a small treatise of his concerning election & reprobation , consisting of six sermons preached by him about three years since , and lately published ; the said title page bearing in front these words , some stop to the gangrene of arminianism , lately promoted by mr john goodwin , in his book intituled redemption redeemed ; partly also , of a short preface or epistle prefixed by the said mr resbury to that his treatise . by the said john goodvvin , minister of the gospel . desiring to be teachers of the law , understanding neither what they say , nor whereof they affirm , tim. . . nonnulli intelligentes citiùs volunt exagitare quod non intelligunt , quàm , quaerere ut intelligant , & non fiunt humiles inquisitores , sed superbi calumniatores . aug. de temp. serm. . nusquam lego , quid erras , quid delinquis , pulvis ? sed lego , quid superbis terra & cinis ? musculus in esa. . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . chrisost. . hom. . ad philip . london , printed by john macock , for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley . . confidence dismounted ; or a letter to mr richard resbury . sir , meeting lately with a little book published under the name of one mr richard resbury ( a gentleman , whose face , to my best remembrance , i never saw , whose name i never heard of , until now , ) in the frontispiece whereof , and more especially in the epistle to the reader prefixed to it , i found many hard and unchristian sayings uttered , not onely against me ( which had been more venial , ) but against those most blessed and important truths of god , for the vindication whereof against the contrary errors ( being of most pernicious consequence , as i have demonstratively proved , & which is indeed a thing in it self sufficiently manifest , ) he was graciously pleased to stir up and arm my spirit , i judged my self so far a a debtor to the honor of those truths ( asserted by me ) and to mine own innocency , yea and to the interest of your comfort and peace also , as to declare briefly unto you , and to the world with you , how inconsiderately ( that i say not , unworthily ) you have vented your self both against a person , who never did you , nor meant you , the least harm , as likewise against those manifest truths of god , which stand ready prest to bless you , if you reject not their blessing . and first i cannot but with bowels of compassion over you , take knowledg of that sad and most unchristian misdemeanor in you ( which i finde also in the generality of those , whose judgments are entangled and polluted with the same erroneous conceits of god , his counsels and ways , with you . ) as the blinde and bloody persecuting heathen of old , were wont to put the christians into wolves and bears skins , and then to set mastive dogs and other wilde beasts upon them , to tear in pieces and devour them ; so do you clothe with , and present the great truths of god , under reproachful names , as of arminianism , pelagianism , and such like clamorous and scandalous imputations ( of satanical device ) and then encourage your selves , and embolden your consciences , to storm , and rage , and rail your pleasures against them . but if that be a gangrene of arminianism , which you charge me to have lately promoted , i marvel under the shadow of what conceit , or notion of hope , you stile your piece , some stop to it . if you expect your book should work after the manner of a charm , or spell , ( as i confess many such pieces do upon persons of weak and light apprehensions ) you have the same ground to honor your book with such a title , which you have for such an expectation . but if you look that it should operate upon the judgments and consciences of men onely by that evidence and demonstration of the spirit , which shall appear in it , doubtless you had very slender grounds to think , that it should give any stop to the gangrene you speak of . i beleeve i have far better grounds to judg that it will occasion a further spreading of this gangrene , and give no stop at all to it . they that are armed with will and preoccupation , against the doctrines asserted in my book of redemption , who are the onely persons with whom your book is like to finde approbation and applause , are far from the happy danger of being infected with the said gangrene : and therefore your book is no ways medicinal unto them . the whole need not the physician . a gangrene cannot be stop'd , where it never comes . as for those , who have conscientiously enquired into , and diligently weighed the grounds of those doctrines , which you think to blast with an angry puff of arminianism , and have throughly tasted the spirit and life which reign in the doctrines themselvs , they are far enough out of the reach of your unhallowed notions , or from being taken in those snares of your ridiculous pretending to magnifie god , and his grace ; which you spread in the way of the simple . and for such persons , who possibly may be at present unsatisfied whether the truth be on your side of the way , or on mine , but withall are seriously engaged ( as becometh those , who are resolved not to lose their souls for want of looking to , in such a posture ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to follow , and , if it be possible , to finde out the truth , your sermons are much more like to bring the gangrene you speak of , into their judgments , then any ways to stop or prevent it . for doubtless such monstrous principles , such uncouth , hard , and horrid notions and thoughts concerning god and his grace , which are the pillars of your tenents and discourse , are not like to sway the judgments or consciences of conscientious enquirers , unless it be the contrary way . nor can i give any account unto my self , why you should ( in your title page ) pretend any thing soveraign in your book against the danger of infection from me , or what hath been written by me , unless it be this ; viz. that this book of yours having for some years ( as you acknowledg , if not complain , in your preface , or epistle to your reader ) layn upon your hands as a drug , or dead commodity , you thought by setting such a face or gloss upon it , to make it vendible . for as erasmus sometimes said of luther , that poor luther made many rich ; meaning , by occasion of his writing against the pope , and such doctrines , which were the pillars of his throne and kingdom , which whosoever would undertake to oppose or confute , had great matters of preferment cast upon them ; so i perceive that my poor writings are like occasionally to enrich many with credit , approbation , and applause from men : and that as caleb promised his daughter achsah to wife , to whosoever should smite kiriath-sepher , and take it ; so doth that spirit that is abroad amongst those that are called ministers of the gospel amongst us ( though they preach another gospel , in effect , and not that of christ jesus ) promise honor , name , and applause unto any man , that shal but offer to smite either my person , or writing with his tongue , or pen , though they speak or write , neither truth , nor any thing to purpose , against either . and mr resbury ( it seems ) hath harkened unto the encouragement of this spirit , and by his title-page hath tempted the world to beleeve , that he hath done some worthy thing against me in my book of redemption , whereas it cannot reasonably be thought by any thing in his book , that ever he look'd any argument , or line of mine , in the face . so far is he from answering any thing argued or asserted by me , either {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . yet not content with the sound of his own trumpet ( in the frontispiece of his book ) by which he would give the world to hope that he was preparing to battel against me , he , or some factor of his about the city , have purchased the lowder blasts of two trumpets more to make the same sound , and have bought of two of our common diurnalists their respective out-cries , or proclamarees , to call the world together to be spectators of his learned valour against me , and my book . indeed in his preface he supplies in most untrue and unchristian revilings of my person , that which in his discourse is wanting in weight and substance of matter for answer to my book . but the spirit i spake of , suggested ( it seems ) this unto him ; if thou beest not able to grapple with his writings , lay on load of reproach upon his person : thou shalt have a good reward for thy labor as well in the one kind , as in the other : they shall prosper both alike in thy hand . but sir , i beseech you by the love you either bear , or pretend to bear unto the lord christ , with what goodness of conscience , or face of ingenuity , can you say , that the main truths of god concerning his electing and redeeming grace ( asserted , as you say , by you , in your sermons ) have been by the daring hand of that unhappy man mr john goodwin , in his wretched treatise , by him called ( but miscalled ) redemption redeemed , been so highly assaulted ; when as you neither have shewed , much less proved , nor ( i have very sufficient ground to believe ) are able to prove , that so much as any one , no not the least of these truths , have been in the lightest manner assaulted by me in this treatise ? sir , i trust you will suffer this word of christian admonition from him , who god knoweth , and your own conscience may know , is no enemy unto you , nor to your peace , nor to your honour or reputation ; that such causless , groundless , and wretched aspersions and reproaches cast upon your christian brethren , as these , will never make your face to shine with any true or permament lustre , nor abound to your account in the great day . in terming me , an unhappy man , you speak truth enough in one sence , and little enough in another . it is my unhappiness , in point of honour and respects with men , not to be believed , when i speak the truth ; and much more , that my speaking the truth should prove a stumbling stone unto so many , and occasion their falling into the great and dangerous sins of hard speaking , reviling , persecuting with the tongue , hating , opposing , calumniating the truth manifested unto them . in all this i am ( i confess ) an unhappy man . but the lord jesus christ himself was in all such respects as these , an unhappy man also , being set as well for the falling , as for the rising of many in israel . but that he was a sweet savour unto god , as well in those who perish , as in those that are saved by him , as well in those who fall by occasion of him , as in those who rise , he was a person thrice happy and blessed . and i should deny the signal grace and goodness of god towards me , if i should not judg my self happy in those ( not a few ) who have been built up by my hand in the knowledg of god , in the grace of the lord jesus christ , in the peace and joy of their souls ; yea and in the reproaches , hard sayings , and evil entreaties which i meet with from mr resbury and others , in as much as these also work for me so much a better resurrection , and a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory . in what sence you call my treatise of redemption , wretched , i do not well understand . if you mean it , wretched , in respect of the sad doom that hath befallen it , by falling into the hands of such hard-spirited men as you and some others are , who by unjust clamours and reviling , set your selves to render the condition of it as calamitous and miserable , as you can , i confess your epithete of wretched may stand : i think it is one of the wretchedest treatises in the world ( in this sence . ) but if you call it wretched , in respect of the matter , or native tendency and import of the doctrine contained therein , as if this tended , or had any thing in it likely to make any person under heaven wretched , or miserable , your epithete it self is wretched ( in this sence , ) because it directly tends to make men miserable and wretched , by dividing their judgments and affections from such truths , which would make them happy , were they received and submitted unto by them . whereas you seem desirous to pick a quarrel against my hand , by terming it , during ; i confess my hand , and heart too , are very daring , venturous , and bold in assaulting error , how strongly soever fortified by the judgments , affections , interests , preoccupations , authorities , credits , writings of men . that clear , satisfying , and convincing light of the knowledg of the truth , which god hath graciously shined into my heart , teacheth my hand to war , and my fingers to fight , against all that is lesser and lower then god in the quarrel and cause of the truth . and if you count it a blemish , or disparagement unto my hand , to be daring ( in this kind , ) it is a sign that your own hand hath little courage for the truth , nor that it dares lift up it self in the defence of it , unless it hath a proud arm of flesh to stand by it , and second it in the engagement . but i perceive that mr resburies hand it self is daring enough , whether in the cause of error , or of truth , when he thinks he hath hands enough with him to bring him off with honour , though he be foyled . whether in calling my treatise , redemption redeemed , i miscall it , or no , will in due time be judged by a streighter rule then mr resburies sence or notion in the case , and by a far more competent judg , then he. in the mean time , you will give me leave ( i trust ) to marvel a little , that you , professing your self so devoted an enemy to that , which you call arminianism ( though i have cause in abundance to judg that you little know what arminianism indeed meaneth , ) should notwithstanding practise that , which you call ( though you miscall it ) the arminian mode so frequently , as you do , in spreading a table of imperial dictates , in stead of arguments , before your reader . this is more like to be the mode of those , who deny the lawfulness of the interposure or use of reason in matters of religion , then theirs , who profess to hold nothing , to believe nothing in such things , but only what they see or apprehend sufficient reason to evince the truth in . but i fear mr resbury was conscious of this nakedness in himself , and fellows , ( i mean , of dictating like emperors , in stead of arguing like teachers , ) and hoped to cover it , with a covering made of a bold imputation of it to his adversaries . for what argument , or proof , or colour of either , doth he bring , or can he bring , to evince truth in that charge against me , that in calling the treatise he speaks of , redemption redeemed , i miscall it ? your subtile insinuation , to have your self notioned like unto michael the arch-angel , and me unto the devil , in this imprecatory prayer against me , the lord rebuke him , i perfectly resent . but sir , you should have done well to have considered , whether in case the arch-angel had had to do with a man , as you have ( though as vile and sinful as you apprehend the man of your contest to be ) and not with the devil , whether ( i say ) it be not probable , that he would have prayed for him , the lord forgive thee , and not , the lord rebuke thee , until his obstinacy had appeared . however , if i have so deeply finned , as you deem and doom me to have done , in judging me worthy to drink of the devils cup after him , i shall joyn issue with you in the words of your prayer against me , and pray with you , the lord rebuke me , only with davids addition , not in his anger . mr resbury ( i fear ) is impatient of all rebuke , for his errors , either from god , or man , though administred with never so much love and sweetness , by the one and the other . the ground of my fear in this kind , is , because i find that the bare pleading of the truth , which contradicteth his error , though without any reflexion in the least upon him , as holding any error , becomes matter of very high and haynous provocation to him . and sir , give me leave to doubt whether you had the consent of your conscience , or no , in drawing up this charge against me , that for the present i so seriously despise , and so boldly bid defiance unto the peculiar grace of god . michael the archangel durst not bring any railing , much less any forged or false , accusation against satan himself , when he contended with him . if he had done this , he had fought against him with no better weapons , then those which satan himself useth in his battels : he had plainly diabolized . it is a thing of most deplorable consideration unto me , that those who call themselves ministers of the gospel , and are so reputed by others , should so far harden themselves from the fear of the lord , as to speak and spread abroad at pleasure , words of an infamous and disparaging import against their brethren , ( who never gave them the least cause of offence , whatsoever was taken by them , ) and this without so much as any colourable pretence of truth in them . for sir , i beseech you , what sentence , clause , word , sillable , letter , tittle , can you , or any other for you , find either in my book of redemption , or any other of my writings , wherein i make the least semblance , or give the lightest intimation that can be imagined , that i at all , much less so seriously ( as your charge advanceth ) despise the peculiar grace of god ? and yet the unchristian rage of your pen riseth much higher , and proclaims , that i also boldly bid defiance to it . well might the apostle james complain , that the tongue is a fire , a world of iniquity . i , especially in my treatise of redemption , am so far from despising the peculiar grace of god , or from any bold bidding defiance to it , that i magnifie it upon all occasions with all my might ; and demonstrate the peculiarity , i. e. the signal excellency and glory of it , to consist in this , that it encompasseth the whole world about , and particularly visiteth and addresseth it self to every creature of mankind ( until it be rejected , ) and this in order to their salvation . so that i make the grace of god , which is saving in the nature and tendency of it , never the less , but rather the more peculiar , by commending the rich diffusiveness of it to particular men . as for that grace of god , or rather that degree , or that operation of this grace , which is actually and eventually saving unto men , i peculiarize it every whit as much , and ( for ought i yet know to the contrary ) upon the same terms , which mr resbury himself , and men of his judgment generally do . for my sence and judgment clearly is , that no person is actually saved , but by such an assistance or operation of the grace of god , which no other person whatsoever partaketh of , or which is vouchsafed unto no other person , but only unto those , who are actually saved also . only herein i may ( i conceive ) possibly dissent from them : they hold , that this peculiar actually-saving grace of god is upon such terms decreed by god , or intended to be given by god , unto those that come to be saved by it , that there was , or is , an absolute necessity for them to embrace it , and so to be saved by it ; whereas my sence is , that such grace is no otherwise decreed by god unto those , who in time come to receive it , and in fine to be actually saved by it , then it is unto others , who never come to receive it ; and that these might have received it , or come to be partakers of it , in the same way , and by the same means , by which those others , who are in conclusion saved by it , came to have part and fellowship in it . but this difference between mr resbury and me , about the peculiar grace of god , doth no whit more prove me to be a serious despiser of it , or a bold bidder of defiance to it , then himself . therefore his charge against me in this point is meerly clamorous and aspersive , and such as a tender conscience would have trembled so much as to demur upon ; and how much more to have published ? of a like staring and broad-fac'd untruth is that charge also , that i challenge an whole vniversity . his ingenuous and modest words are these : neither hath he , for ought i can ( and without partiality ) discern ( i know not how you should , in case you never read my book , whereof i have more grounds then one , to be jealous ) at all repaired their loss , ( which is none at all , that either i , or you , know of , ) only concealing it from vulgar eyes , ( it seems you honor your own , as super-vulgar , ) he treads with confidence in their steps , ( if all be true , that you say , ) and that nothing may want to set it off bravely , [ it ? what ? what noun shall we find for a match to this pronoun ? my masters loss , of which you spake last , is but an untoward one for the relation , ] challengeth an whole vniversity to remove him . sir , i desire fairly and friendly between you and me , to understand from you , what either word , or carriage of mine , tempted or provoked you to cast this mire in my face , that i challenge an whole vniversity to remove me ? i confess i dedicated my book of redemption , not to an whole university ( much less challenged an whole vniversity , as you asperse , ) but to the vice-chancellor of the vniversity of cambridg ( my worthy friend and acquaintance , ) together with the rest of the heads of colledges , and students in divinity in that vniversity . and they who shall please to peruse my dedicatory epistle before the said book , will find , that i am so far from challenging those to whom i make the said dedication , that i set my self to put all terms of honour and respect upon them , as far as is christian , and meet to be done . nor is there any one line throughout this whole epistle , that , as far as i can imagine , hath so much as the softest ayr , or gentlest breathing of a challenge in it . and yet you not content to have traduced me , as a challenger of an whole vniversity , add drunkenness to thirst , ironically , and with the open breach of all the laws of ingenuity , ( that i say not of piety it self , ) insult over me ( that i say not over the spirit of truth indeed , ) in these words ( immediately subjoyned , ) doubtless such modesty and ingenuity must needs be the character of the spirit of truth in him . sir , the worst i wish you ( and there is no harm , i am certain , in the wish ) is , that some better and more pregnant character of the spirit of truth were discernable in you , then appears either in your stop , or in your epistle prefixed to it . upon this occasion , i shall crave leave to inform you , that other manner of characters of the spirit of truth , and of a far more gracious import , were found ( and this in the judgment , and by the confession of some of his enemies ) in my great master arminius ( as you , who , it seems , claim your tongue , and pen , for your own , are pleased to stile him , though , as the saying is , you neither know why , nor wherefore , ) then the consciences of your best friends ( i fear ) have found in you ; though far be it from me to disparage you . you have one who disparageth you ( i am unfeignedly sorry to see it ) even your self . towards the close of your epistle , the remainder of your wrath , instead of refraining , you pour out in words seasoned with no better salt , then this : and here i now thank mr goodwin , whose darkness , i doubt not , will occasion more light , his boldness ( confident i am ) will excite modesty ; i will not say what an edg his sometimes imperial dictates , in stead of arguments ( as is the arminian mode , ) sometimes his monstrous conclusions , sometimes his wrested quotations , sometimes his uncouth philosophy , sometimes his consequential blasphemy , will put upon the spirits of some , whom the lord shall honour to rescue his truth out of his hands , &c. sir , i fear that in speaking these things you fall into the condemnation of the english proverb , which saith , that many talk of robin hood , who never shot in his bow . i cannot judg you a man of so little , either conscience , or understanding , as to think that such causless and groundless imputations as these could have been taken up by you into your pen , in case you had read that book , the report whereof ( it seems ) hath put the edg you speak of , not upon your modesty , but your confidence : though ( i confess ) it argueth not much , either of the one , or the other ( conscience , i mean , or understanding ) in any man , to speak evil of the things , which he knoweth not , ( jude v. . ) for how can i reasonably conceive , that you intending to publish a discourse for the stopping of an erroneous doctrine ( erroneously so called ) maintained in a printed book , should not so much as draw blood of this evil beast with one pointed argument , in case you had come within the reach or sight of it ; though you had left the other huntsmen you speak of to have followed the chase , and done the plenary execution ? upon which account likewise i cannot praise your saying , that though your treatise be no answer directed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to my book , yet , &c. for doth not such an expression as this import , that though you have not shaped an answer to every particular argument , or passage , in my book , yet you have grappled with the most , and most material of them ? when as the truth is , you have not in all your discourse done so much as canis ad nilum , or toucht the lightest argument therein with the least of your fingers . is it fair for you to say , that you never indeed read over all chrysostoms works , when as you never read so much as one line of them ? but whereas you say , i now thank mr goodwin , whose darkness , &c. it seems you trade much in ironies , and jeers , having a little before informed your reader ( in the same figure ) that my modesty and ingenuity must needs be the character of the spirit of truth in me . mr resbury , as our saviour admonisheth men not to judg , lest they be judged : so i fear you will first or last meet with those , that will execute legem talionis upon you , that will {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} with you , and pay you home in your own coyn . but if my darkness will ( as you doubt not ) occasion more light , it is ( doubtless ) of a much better genius then yours : for your darkness occasioneth ( or , which is worse , directly causeth ) more darkness dayly in the world , and leadeth poor people they know not whither . however , i count the imputation of darkness , no disparagement unto me , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. but that which every man lieth under , as well as i : and if mr resbury counteth it no robbery to make himself equal with him , in whom there is no darkness at all , that consequential blastphemy , which without so much as any colour or pretext of ground he layeth to my charge , will be real and apparant guilt upon his own head . i dare not number my self amongst men of any higher attainments in knowledg , then those , who acknowledg , that at present they know but in part : and if those spots of ignorance , which are upon the face of my understanding , may occasion a further clearness and brightness in the understandings of other men , it will help to ballance the sorrow of the inconvenience and loss i sustain by them . nevertheless as the apostle speaks of science , or knowledg , falsly so called ( by men in his times , ) so i make no question but there is darkness falsly so called by men in our days : and i fear mr resbury speaketh this dialect too familiarly . whereas you say , my boldness ( confident you are ) will excite modesty ; i am sorry it hath had so little of this happy influence upon you . your own pen falls upon you with the confession of confidence : and your neighbors pen should not much wrong you , in stead of confidence , to write , impudence . but your supposed antithesis between boldness , and modesty , is no praise to your learning , or understanding . the apostle paul was a man of singular modesty , far from all unseemly self-assuming , conversing with fear and trembling amongst men , devesting himself from place to place of the honour and praise of all those worthy accomplishments , that were in him , and of all those great things that had been done and suffered by him , for the gospel : and yet was he {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a man as bold as a lion , not fearing the fiercest countenance of man in the world , nor reproof from any man touching the truth of those things which he held and taught . vprightness ( as the common motto hath it ) hath boldness . but amongst all your undue aspersions , you should have befriended your reputation in forbearing that of imperial dictates in stead of arguments . if you had judged it safe to have followed me in my book with your answers {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , you would have met with arguments , in stead of dictates ( whether consular , or imperial , ) and not dictates , in stead of arguments . they that are acquainted , either with my preaching , or writings , will ( i doubt not ) be my compurgators in the scandal of being wanting , or sparing , in arguments , or of obtruding things without ground or proof , upon the judgments of men . and if to use imperial dictates , in stead of arguments , be the arminian mode , it seems the arminians are presbyterians , these being the men , who in their synods and assemblies are wont to bind what burthens of faith they please upon the necks of men , without giving any why , or wherefore , but their own authority . my frequent and free advice to all my friends and hearers , is known to be this : not to believe any thing , whether from me , or any other man , but what they see sufficient ground and reason why they should beleeve . he that should satyrize the town of newcastle for want of coals , might comfort mr resbury in his indictment against me for want of arguments . what you mean by monstrous conolusions , i confess i understand not : i wish you well understand your self . there are no conclusions i know of , or am able to call to mind , in that book of mine , which so much offends you , but what are the genuine and natural issue of your own principles and tenents : yea and are frequently delivered and asserted by your own prophets , and great founders of your faith in the points of election , reprobation , &c. calvin , musculus , bullinger , peter martyr , &c. so that in calling my conclusions , monstrous , you fall foul upon your own tenents and opinions also , and put these to rebuke . but it may be your maxim is : pereant amici , dummodò & inimici unà pereant : i. e. let dearest friends destroyed be , so foes may bear them company . however , you should have provided for your credit somewhat better at this point , in case you had brought forth ( at least ) one of the monsters you speak of , that so your reader might the better have understood what you call , monstrous , and likewise have had some ground for his belief of your honesty , in charging me with monstrous conclusions . for ( as the saying is ) si accusâsse sufficiet , quis erit innocens ? if it sufficeth to accuse , who shall be innocent , i muse ? concerning your charge of wrested quotations , i must crave leave to tell you , that wrested quotations are as far beneath me , as i perceive speaking truth to be above you . if you wrested the scriptures no more , then i do authors , your notions about the counsels and dispensations of god would be much streighter then they are . i am all thoughts made that the truth maintained by me is able to stand upon her own proper base , against all opposition , and hath no need at all to be supported by the rotten props of wrested quotations , no nor yet by the credit or repute of any author , or authors whatsoever , though never so pertinently or candidly quoted to her assistance . nor do i mention or make use of authors upon any such account , as if the doctrine i teach , were not able , without having any thing at all added unto it by men , to commend it self with sufficient evidence and power unto the judgments and consciences of all considering men , and truly desirous of the knowledg of the truth : but partly to remove that stone , or straw rather , of offence , ( at which people of effeminate and weak apprehensions are so apt to stumble , ) viz. that the said doctrine wanteth an arm of flesh to stand by it , was never held by orthodox or pious men : partly also to demonstrate that the greatest opposers of this doctrine were not so consistent with themselves in their opposition to it , but that ever and anon they fluctuated in their judgments about it , yea and sometimes pulled down with one hand , what they had built up with the other . this is a thing so manifest to those , that with judgment and observation are any thing conversant in their writings , that to deny it , is ( in effect ) to deny that the sun is up at noon day . therefore for him to wrest quotations , or pervert the sayings of men , who hath no more need either of men , or their sayings , then i , or the doctrine asserted by me have , is to sacrifice both his precious name , and more precious conscience , upon the service a nut-shell , or thing of nought . there was more wisdom then so , though not much honesty , in that saying of the heathen : si jus violandum est , regnandi gratia violandum est : i. e. justice too sacred is to harm , unless a kingdom be the charm . nor am i at all edified by your reproof for my uncouth philosophy . i make little use of any kinde of philosophy in the book you wote of : nor can i imagine unto what passage throughout the whole book this stigm relateth . my whole estate in philosophy is not ( i confess ) very great . that modicum which i have , is generally of the ordinary and best-known stamp : nor have i , to my knowledg , so much as any one uncouth , affectate , or sequestred notion in my whole systeme . if you were as chaste from the pollutions of uncouth divinity , as i am of uncouth philosophy , the lord christ would take more pleasure in you , then now ( i fear ) he doth . but ( it seems ) you wanted two words to make a new slander : and he that stood invisibly at your right hand , and of whom you were not sufficiently aware , bad you put in , uncouth philosophy . i perceive you do not think that you have yet layd on a sufficient load of calumny and reproach ; and therefore you resolve to adventure onesheaf more of the same grain upon your cart , heavier then all the rest . you arraign me for a misdemeanor , which you call , consequential blasphemy . i want your heifer to plough with , to finde out your riddle of consequential blasphemy . what may we call the opposite species of blasphemy , contradistinguished to that which you term , consequential ? or by charging me with consequential blasphemy , do you mean , that i hold or reach such positions or doctrines , the direct consequences whereof are blasphemous ? this is the fairest and best sence that ( as far as my short understanding is able to reach ) your words will bear . but sir , if the doctrine or principle it self be not blasphemous , unpossible it is that any legitimate consequ●●●e , or position deducible from it , should be such . if the first fruit be holy ( saith the apostle ) the lump is also holy : and if the root be holy , so are the branches . and your logique maxim is : ex veris possit nil , nisi vera , sequi : i. e. from truth , nothing , but truths themselves , will follow . therefore if there be any thing blasphemous in my book , you should rather have charged it upon my principles , or fundamental doctrines , then upon any thing consequentially deducible from them . or if by the consequential blasphemies you speak of , you mean your own spurious consequences begotten rape-wise , either by your ignorance , or passion , or some worse spirit then either , upon my innocent premisses , and call these blasphemous , it is a clear case , that the bastards are yours , and only layd by you ( after the manner of those that are loath to own , or keep their own children ) at my door . onely you should have done well to have given your reader a tast of that which you call consequential blasphemy , out of the book it self , that so he might have understood your meaning in this particular of your charge . but as potiphars wife out of a spirit of anger and revenge , accused her chaste and loyal servant joseph of incontinency unto his lord , because he rejected and abhorred her unchaste and disloyal motions : so ( i fear ) you accuse me of blasphemy ( whether consequential , or by what name or title soever called or distinguished ) unto the world , out of a spirit of indignation , because i will not say a confederacy , where you , and men of your principles , say a confederacy , against the honor , mercy , goodness , justice , truth , and other the glorious attributes of god , but have set my self , and endevored with all loyalty and faithfulness unto my god ( whom with my whole heart and soul i love , reverence , and honor ) to detect those doctrines and tenents of blasphemy , wherewith the judgments and consciences of so many thousands have been bewitched and abused ; as the ●●ghter sort of the jews were with those garnished or painted sepulchres of the prophets and righteous men ( thus garnished and painted by the scribes and pharisees , matt. . . ) which within were full of nothing but rottenness and dead mens bones . i had a full taste of this spirit in a man of your , judgment ( a minister in this city ) at a publique disputation about these controversion ( now above a year since ) who when i argued , and clearly evinced that doctrine of reprobation maintained by him , and his party ( which is the same with yours ) to contain this blasphemy in it , viz. that god should reprobate himself , he replyed unto me ( in the hearing of thousands there present ) sir , i pray speak more reverently of god . by which words he sought to insinuate into the auditory , that i had spoke irreverently or blasphemously of god , when as i onely detected and brought to light before the people that horrid blasphemy , which was bound up in a bundle at the heart of his and your opinion , against which i then disputed . sir , you say ( though untruly , as is before proved ) i challenge an whole vniversity to remove me : i will not challenge you , but modestly and humbly entreat and desire you ( and if you please , you may take ten universities to your assistance ) that you will please to shew me ( onely i desire withall that you will not shew me darkness in stead of a vision , or that which is not , under the name of that which is ) but that you will please to shew me , any one spot of my darkness , any one strain , either of any unseemly boldness , or of any uncouth philosophy , or of any blasphemy ( whether consequential , or of what kinde soever ) any one instance , either of my imperial dictating in stead of arguing , or of any monstrous conclusion , or of a wrested quotation , throughout my whole book . if you be able , and shall please christianly and friendly to shew me any of these , it will be an excellent oyl , that shall not break my head ; you shall finde me {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , easie to be entreated , tractable both to matter of acknowledgment , and amendment of what is amiss . but if you be not able to make good , upon a fair and reasonable account , all , or any the particulars , wherein you have rendered me to the world a man of guilt , and much unworthiness , i trust you will make haste to the golden altar of repentance , and lay hold upon the horns hereof for the safety both of your conscience and reputation : and will not count it any great thing to repair , what you have demolished and pulled down . one thing ( before i cloze ) i desire calmly to know of you : why , or upon what account , you term the doctrine , maintained by me in my treatise of redemption , by the name of arminianism . if it be simply because the said doctrine was ( as you suppose ) held and maintained by arminius , . i must crave leave to inform you , that unless the good figure synecdoche makes peace between such your supposition , and the truth , they will never agree : for the doctrine here taught by me was onely in part held by arminius : the main foundations on which i build , you will not finde layd by him . . were it granted , that what i teach in that book , was ( for substance of matter ) nothing but what is to be found in his writings ; yet what reason is there why that which i teach in common with arminius , should be termed , arminianism , when you teach twenty times more upon the same , terms ( i mean , in common with arminius ) and yet would be judged the freest man in the world from arminianism ? if you charge me with arminianism , because the doctrine which i maintain , was held by arminius with opposition or contrariety to the truth ; . whether this be a truth , or no , adhuc sub judice lis est , is a case yet depending in the court of equity : and i beleeve before many years shall have passed over the head of the world , all competent judges will pass sentence against you in the point . . in case it were true , that arminius did indeed maintain that doctrine in opposition to the truth , about which i make one in judgment with him , yet why should my doctrine be rather termed arminianism , then either calvinism , musculism , martyrism , or the like , considering that calvin , musculus , and others ( reputed orthodox ) did assert over and over , and this in terms every whit as significant and express , as any found in arminius , the very self-same doctrine , as i fully , and above all controversie and contradiction , prove by many testimonies cited from the writings of these men , in my said treatise of redemption . if you here plead , that these authors elsewhere in their writings , declare their judgments in opposition to this doctrine ; . i make little question but that this may with as much truth be said concerning arminius himself . . if those other authors declare sometimes for the said doctrine , and otherwhile against it , why should he , who teacheth contrary to what they deliver in one place , be traduced as an opposer of their doctrine , rather then he , who teacheth contrary to what they teach and deliver in another ? sir , i fear that when the lord jesus christ ( both yours , and mine ) shall come to umpire between you , and me , your aspersing his truth with infamous and ignominious terms will turn to no good account unto you . concerning your treatise , or sermons , if there be any thing in them more material or weighty , then what your great makers at the synod of dort have upon the same account , which you stand up to justifie , afforded us in their synodical writings , it shall ( god willing ) be taken into consideration in due time . but i beleeve that when the oaks of bashan shall be hewn down and fall , the shrubs and under-wood will be broken and beaten down to the ground under them : and that when the horsemen are put to rout , the infantry will throw down their arms , and quit the field . as for your decree of absolute reprobation , when you seek for it in the nineth to the romans , you dig in a wrong field to find any such treasure : and the truth is , that you will , or may , as soon discover the element of fire at the bottom of the sea , as such a reprobation as you dream of , in that chapter , or indeed in any other quarter or passage of the scriptures . yea your self in this very epistle , making your elect ones , through weakness of judgment , and unskilfulness in the mystery of christ , liable to be seduced by a spirit of error , do little less ( if not every whit as much ) then shake the foundations of your absolute reprobation . if you speak of such a liableness to seduction , which endangereth not the salvation of the seduced , your zealous solicitousness for the suppression of error , is to little purpose , at least in reference to such persons . for men , whether elect ( in your notion ) or not elect , will be always liable to be thus far ( at least ) seduced , were all the errors at present on foot in the world , never so throughly suppressed . besides , according to your principles , all the sins which your elect shall at any time commit , or fall into , shall work for good unto them , and not only be forgiven immediately upon the commission . therefore your care of preventing their seducement , being truly interpreted , is only a care to keep them from that , which would turn to a certain benefit or advantage unto them , in case they were not kept from it . if you speak of a liableness to such a seduction , which may possibly end in the destruction of the seduced , then you clearly suppose a possibility of the perishing of your elect ones : and if your election staggers , or waves , how can your reprobation stand fast ? how impertinently you cite , and apply to your purpose , those words of the apostle , the foundation of god stands sure , but that i am unworthy to teach , you might have learned from the . and . pages of my book of redemption . but i shall ( i trust ) ere long , interruptory occasions not too numerously or importunely thronging me , vindicate the innocency of that nineth chapter to the romans , from the scandalous imputation of holding correspondency with so monstrous and horrid a doctrine , as that which mr resbury , with many others , ( led aside out of the way of truth by the same spirit of error and delusion , ) teach under the notion and name of , absolute reprobation . in the mean time , hoping that for the future you will be more christianly tender of the names and reputations of your brethren , at least until you know more evil by them , and this upon better terms , then ( i am certain ) you yet know , or can know , any by me , or ( i trust ) ever shall know , i take my leave , beseeching the god of all grace , with all fervency and effectualness of prayer and supplication , that he will vouchsafe to make both your anointing and mine , with the spirit of revelation , much more rich and full , then hitherto it hath been , that we may be more able to give the light of the knowledg of god in the face of jesus christ , unto men . your assured friend in christ , above , and against , all unkindnesses , or evil intreaties , john goodwin . from my study . octob. . . finis . basanistai. or the triers, (or tormenters) tried and cast, by the laws both of god and of men. or, arguments and grounds as well in reason as religion, clearly evincing the unlawfulnesse of those ordinances or commissions (at least as they have been from time to time declared and interpreted, aloud by the persons acting them, and tacitly by the authority enacting them) with all others of like import, by which the respective courts, or consistories of triers and ejectors (so called) amongst us, are established: together with the unwarrantablenesse of the acceptation and exercise of the powers delegated and granted in the said commissions, by any man, or company of men whatsoever, now in being. by john goodwin, an aged minister of jesus christ, and pastor to that remnant of his sheep, usually assembling in coleman-street, london. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) basanistai. or the triers, (or tormenters) tried and cast, by the laws both of god and of men. or, arguments and grounds as well in reason as religion, clearly evincing the unlawfulnesse of those ordinances or commissions (at least as they have been from time to time declared and interpreted, aloud by the persons acting them, and tacitly by the authority enacting them) with all others of like import, by which the respective courts, or consistories of triers and ejectors (so called) amongst us, are established: together with the unwarrantablenesse of the acceptation and exercise of the powers delegated and granted in the said commissions, by any man, or company of men whatsoever, now in being. by john goodwin, an aged minister of jesus christ, and pastor to that remnant of his sheep, usually assembling in coleman-street, london. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for henry eversden, at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard, london : . first word of title transliterated from greek. the words "or tormentors" are enclosed in square brackets on title page. running title reads: the triers tried, and cast by the laws both of god and men. the first leaf is blank. the last leaf contains a postscript. with an errata slip. annotation on thomason copy: "may ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -- government -- controversial literature -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no basanistai. or the triers, (or tormenters) tried and cast, by the laws both of god and of men.: or, arguments and grounds as well in reason goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion ΒΑΣΑΝΙΣΤΑ'Ι . or the triers , [ or tormenters ] tried and cast , by the laws both of god and of men . or , arguments and grounds as well in reason as religion , clearly evincing the unlawfulnesse of those ordinances or commissions ( at least as they have been from time to time declared and interpreted , aloud by the persons acting them , and tacitly by the authority enacting them ) with all others of like import , by which the respective courts , or consistories of triers and ejectors ( so called ) amongst us , are established : together with the unwarrantablenesse of the acceptation and exercise of the powers delegated and granted in the said commissions , by any man , or company of men whatsoever , now in being . by john goodwin , an aged minister of jesus christ , and pastor to that remnant of his sheep , usually assembling in coleman-street , london . that which is highly esteemed amongst men , is abhomination in the sight of god , luke . . and they please not god , and are contrary to all men . thess. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} theog . nulla potentia fida est , si sit nimia . sunt multi fidelium qui imperito zelo succenduntur , & saepè dum quosdam , quasi haereticos hos persequuntur , haereses faciunt . greg. l. epist. . london , printed for henry eversden , at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard , . to the reader . good reader , being much stricken in years , and not far from that turning in the course of mortality , where moses the man of god , found in his dayes the ordinary period of the life of man a ; i am by the high and dreadfull concernment of my dissolution approaching , importuned to the uttermost to bethink my self and consider , what service i may do , whilest my earthly tabernacle yet standeth , to my dear lord and master jesus christ , and for his sake , to the world about me , which is like to be of choicest acceptance with him , and which will turn to the best account unto my self at my appearance before him . in my thoughts about this important affair , i traversed much ground , and had a great variety of particulars , from time to time presented unto me , which all commended themselves unto my conscience in both those respects , which i made after with the greatest strength of my desire . amongst others , and with more rational importunity than the rest , some brief remonstrance or testimony against the two apocryphall orders of commissioned officers amongst us ( whether ecclesiastick or civill , can hardly be determined , but by a nemo scit ) however known by the names of triers , and ejectors , much solicited and pressed me in that behalf . from the first day that i heard of these commissions , and understood , though but in generall , the purport of them , my heart was troubled within me , and began secretly to presage the many and great evils , which through the administration and execution of them , they were like to bring upon the gospel in the ministry of it , and upon many godly , worthy , and well deserving men . of the truth of which presagements , my self in part , with severall others , who have had better and more opportunity than i , to understand the occasioned productions of the said commissions , are sad witnesses . i call god for a record upon my soule , that as concerning the persons entrusted with the administration of the said commissions ( some few of them being known unto me , but far the greater part unknown ) i bear not the least grudge of ill will against any of them , but from the heart wish them all prosperity and peace , as well in their temporall as spirituall affairs ; yea , and with all christian candor and clearnesse of spirit , shall upon all occasions seek to promote them : onely , my soule hath no pleasure in their accepting the office ( such as it is ) into which the mentioned commissions ( respectively ) have tempted them , much lesse in many strains and carriages in their managing of it : yea , for those of them , who are known unto me , i believe them to be men of conscience and worth , fearing god , and lovers of truth , as far as god hath caused the light thereof to shine in their hearts and understandings ; and for the rest , i charitably hope the same also . but as one observed , that etiam ex timidissimis animalibus acris multitudo cogi potest , some creatures that being very timerous and fearfull , whilest single and alone , are yet daring and fierce in herds and greater companies ; so frequent experience sheweth , ( and hath shewed in all ages ) that many men , who divisim and apart are of a sober and christian temper , inclineable unto things that are honest , just and good , yet conjunctim and in consort , prove boysterous and peremptory , apt to be acted and led by oppressive counsels and principles of much unworthinesse . the reason whereof may be , because the guilt and shame of unworthy doings being divided amongst many , weigh but light upon the apprehensions and consciences of particulars ; whereas in the mean time , the old man , or the flesh , in these particulars , may be as much or more gratified by what is done in consort , and company , as by the same things , in case they were transacted and done personally onely and in particular , by the same men . i shall not here insist upon any explication of this reason , a considering man will see enough to satisfie him in this brief proposall of it . concerning the persons , by whose authority the said commissions have issued , and been established , i have ( i presume ) much lesse need to professe the christian loyalty and intirenesse of my respects towards them , than the fairnesse and friendlinesse of my spirit towards the other . the prosperity and peace both of the parliamentary and present government , together with theirs , who are intrusted with it , have been the great contest and strife of my soul , both with god and man , ever since the day wherein god laid the foundations of it , and this against disobliegments not a few , nor inconsiderable . that i speak the truth in this , and ly not , i have many witnesses . but it hath been a kind of fatall unhappinesse incident to the rulers of the earth professing christianity : whether out of their zeal of god , without knowledge , or out of a desire to make their power ( i mean their authority , or lawfull power ) to be thought greater than ( indeed ) it is ; or else by the plausible suggestions and insinuations , or by the importune or minatory puttings on , or thrustings forward of others , who under a pretence , seek to serve themselves of their power , to be drawn into this snare , namely , to think it their duty , and a service well pleasing unto god , to employ that authority and power which is vested in them , for other purposes , about making , and enforcing by the civil sword additional ordinances , provisions & decrees , as it were to supply that which is , or seems to them to be , wanting in that system or body of councells , orders , and directions , which the lord christ himself hath drawn up , and commended unto the christian world , to be practiced by those who professe the gospell , and the true worship of god , for the best advancement of the interest of both amongst men . whereas the truth is , that multiplications in this kinde , and substractions , are of the same demerit and provocation in the sight of god , and are accordingly censed and prohibited as it were with the same breath by him , ye shall not adde unto the word , which i command you , neither shall ye diminish ought from it , that ye may keep the commandements of the lord your god which i command you ( deut. . . ) this last clause , that ye may keep , &c. clearly importeth , that when any thing is added [ in matters of religion and appertaining to the conscience ) unto the word of god , it is as impedimental or destructive to the keeping of gods commandements , as the taking away of any thing from it would be hereof i give some brief account in these papers . so else where : what thing soever i command you , observe to do it ; thou shalt not adde thereto , nor diminish from it , deut. . . and agurs advice by the holy ghost , is ; adde thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee [ viz. by punishing thee in one kinde or other ] and thou be found a lyar a [ meaning unto thy self , who promisedest unto thy self speciall favour in the sight of god for thy imaginary service in supplying that , which in thy conceit , was wanting in his words , whereas thou reapest his displeasure by it . ] this adding unto the words of god , of which we now speak , is elsewhere ( i conceive ) termed , a turning aside on the right hand [ from what god had commanded ] as a taking away from these words , a turning aside to the left : and is voted by god himself an enemy to the prosperity and peace of men , as well as this . turn not from it ( saith god to joshua concerning his law ) to the right hand , or to the left , that thou maiest prosper whethersoever thou goest ( josh. . . ) plainly implying , that as well turning aside on the right hand [ from the commands of god , by which i know not , as was even now hinted , what can be meant , but mens adding words and ordinances of their own , to fill up that which they conceive to be defective and empty in his ] as turning aside on the left , is provoking in the sight of god , and obstructive to the peace and comforts of men . so again : ye shall observe to do therefore , as the lord your god hath commanded you : you shall not turn aside to the righthand , or to the left , you shall walk in all the waies , which the lord your god hath commanded you , that ye may live , and that it may be well with you , &c. deut. . , . the wisdome of kings , and of the judges of the ] earth , ( as the great king and prophet david informeth them ) is , to kisse the son , lest the be angry , and they perish from the way , i. e. to subject themselves unto the laws and ordinances made and established by christ , not to set their thresholds by his , or by their authority to super-induce new laws or ordinances upon his , to serve upon the same account , with his , or to regulate the judgements or consciences of men , in matters of faith , or things appertaining unto god , which is his appropriate sovereigntie . the anger or displeasure of christ against rulers , when they refuse to kisse him , especially when they challenge and claim from men the same kisse with him , is commonly expressed by such an interposure of his , whereby they perish from the way . i. as mr. ainsworth well interprets the phrase , wander and lose the right way , and not know whether to go , nor what to deliberate : and so they become intangled and ensnared in their own counsels , and run to confusion . this is the expresse doom that in all ages hath befallen kings , and princes , and states , and persons in power , when they have lift up their hearts in a conceit , as if that jesus christ had given unto them the right hand of fellowship , as well in his propheticall office , as his kingly , and accordingly have fallen upon making laws , statutes , and ordinances , as the furrows in the field , for binding under severe mulcts and penalties , the judgements and consciences of men . and whether the anger of christ hath not uttered it self in that very kinde of judgement now described , against the former princes and rulers of this nation , and more especially against our late parliaments , as oft as they presumed to meddle with his golden scepter , whereby he nurtures and rules the consciences of men , i referre to the testimony of those amongst us , who hath been diligent and constant observers from time to time between the lord christ and them , at such turns . my hope is , and my fervent prayer shall be , that god in mercy will keep the present rulers of the nation from dashing their foot against this stone , and that they shall not oppresse or vex , by any apocryphal statutes or decrees , those consciences in the nation , which are full of goodness , and zealous in their love and loyalty towards them . but of these things ; i have upon severall occasions , written heretofore more at large . the papers now in thy hand , were at the press some weeks since , and in part printed : onely upon some overtures of report ( which since vanished into nothing ) as if the two commissions here impleaded were under some relentings , and meant to annoy and damnifie the gospell no more , as hitherto they have done , the process of the presse was for a while suspended . to what account , whether for the benefit and good , or of increase of guilt , they will turn unto those who are most concern'd in the contents of them , resteth in the hand of god in conjunction with the wills and reasonings of these men . my hearts desire and prayer unto god for them is , that he will incline them to consider what is here said , and give them understanding in a matter of so great concernment unto them . for my selfe , what inconvenience or trouble otherwise i shall gain by the hand , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i think it not worth the putting to account , being so near the line , beyond which there are no sufferings to those that love god . certain i am , that by giving my testimony against two so great evills , and dammagers to the gospell of christ , & sundry his faithfull ministers and servants in the nation , as the two commissions against which i here contend , i shall gain a departure in so much the more peace whensoever my change shall come . in which great blessing ( good reader ) my soul wisheth thee part and fellowship with my selfe , and resteth devoted to thy soul , and the dear interest thereof . john goodwin . argvments and grovnds as well in reason , as religion , clearly evincing the unlawfulness of those ordinances or cōmmissions ( especially as they have bin from time to time declared and interpreted , aloud by the persons acting them and tacitly by the authority enacting them ) with all others of like import , by which the respective courts , or consistories of triers and ejectors ( so called ) amongst us , are established ; together with the unwarrantableness of the acceptation and exercise of the powers delegated and granted in the said commissions , by any man , or company of men whatsoever , now in being . it is a great indignity and affront put upon the lord jesus christ , blessed for ever , to charge or challenge him , whether formally or constructively , with want , either of wisdom and understanding , or of care and faithfulnesse , in making sufficient provision for the due managing of his affairs , or for the propagation and advancement of the gospel upon the best , and best becoming terms in the world . now there being no order or direction , nor any jot or tittle of either given by him to the civil powers , for the erecting of any such authority in the church , and over his servants , as that wherewith either triers , or ejectors , amongst us , are invested by the said commissions ( respectively ) they who notwithstanding presumed to do it , ( i meane to make and establish such an erection in the church ) what do they lesse then obliquely , yea and by a pregnant and near-hand consequence , impute either oscitancy and forgetfulnesse , or else weaknesse and defect of understanding unto the lord jesus christ , in his own greatest and most important affairs ? if either the civil magistrate , or any other on his behalf , will rise up to plead or shew an order or cōmission from christ for him to grant such commissions and authorities , as those now impleaded , unto men , ( besides that it had been more christian and proper that this should have been done before the said commissions had been issued , and exercised , to the great scandal and offence of the far greater part of the godly and understanding people in the nation ) i fear that neither the credit , nor the conscience , of the undertaker will rejoyce over the enterprise , in as much as all attempts in this kind that have been made ( as many within the compasse of a few years last past have been ) have miscarried , and turned to no account , but of losse and disparagement to their undertakers . do we provoke the lord unto jealousie ? are we stronger then he , that we dare say , we are wiser then he ? the lord christ himself never assumed to himself , nor ever exercised any interest of authority or power so exorbitant or over-bearing , as to give authority and power to any lesser or smaller number of men , at least not of such men , to whom he was not able , his fathers will standing to the contrary , to give both infallibility of judgement , and intemerable faithfulnesse , in matters of faith and supernatural concernment , to exercise any such dominion over the faith , judgements , or consciences of far greater numbers of men , and these every way equal , at least many of them , ( if not superiour ) to them , both in gifts and graces , and all spiritual endowments , as the persons commissioned amongst us by the two ordinances specified , do by vertue hereof , exercise over the judgements and faith of all the ministers of the gospel in this nation , yea and over the faith of all those , whom god , ( as both these commissioners and others have cause to judge ) calleth unto this ministery . for is not this the jurisdiction , lordship , or dominion , which they by vertue of their commissions ( respectively ) exercise over the faith of that great number of worthy persons now mentioned , even to eject them out of the possession and enjoyment of such livelyhoods which the merciful providence of god in conjunction with the laws of their nation , have intituled them unto ? to cast them out ( i say ) of the enjoyment of their lawful subsistence to the extreme misery , if not utter affamishing , of themselves , wives and children , onely because they will not , or rather because in conscience they cannot , believe or professe as they , being in this case made their lords and masters , require them upon the said penalty to believe ; the other , upon a like account , shutting against others by the iron bars of their authority , the door of accesse unto such livelyhoods , whereunto both the providence of god , and the faithfulnesse of men legally entrusted with such opportunities , yea and their own signal worths and ministerial abilities , do aloud call them ? doubtlesse the lord jesus christ never took upon him the exercise of any such authority , as to appoint a few men for the devesting of any sort of men whatsoever , much lesse the ministers of his gospel , of their temporal rights or enjoyments , onely because their faith in matters appertaining unto god , is not the same in all points with the faith of other men . if it be replied , that neither sort of commissioners , trier ; or ejectors , are impowred by the tenor or words of their commissions , to punish any minister , either poenâ sensus , or poenâ damni , simply for not believing , or ( which is the same in effect ) for not professing , or not teaching others to believe as themselves believe ; so that when they do any such thing as this , they act besides their commissions . i answer , first , the commissioners themselves , at least such of them as are generally knwon to understand their commissions , as well as , or rather better then , their fellowes , do so construe and understand them , as giving them power , both to reject , and eject for not finding their own sense and belief in those , that come before them . secondly , their frequent , if not constant , practise in this kind , being sufficiently known unto , and connived at , if not approved of , by those under whose authority and protection they thus practise , clearly sheweth that the sense intended , or at present owned , in both the commissions by those who are in authority , and who have power to declare the sense of either commission , is that which hath been supposed in the argument , though deposed , or denied , in the reply . they who devise new stratagems , methods , or inventions to aid the gospel , and to prevent dangers or inconveniencies incident to it , beyond or besides all that christ either prescribed or directed to be done upon any such account , or for any such end , do in effect deny what the holy ghost expresly testifieth of him , viz that he was faithful to him that appointed him [ meaning , god the father ] as also moses was faithful in all his house , heb. . . for if it be supposed that the two commissions specified , be advantagious and benedict to the interest of the gospel , and that this is more like to run and be glorified in the world , because seconded and assisted by the said commissions , then was not jesus christ faithful unto god in all his house , neglecting or forgetting to give any order to his apostles or others concerning the levying or setting on foot any such meanes as these for the relief of the gospel ; nor is it easie to imagine ( but much more difficult is it to prove ) when , unto whom , or by whom , christ directed the making of any such evangelical engines , as either of the said commissions are . the lord christ being ( as was said ) faithful , as moses also was , in all the house of god , and his wisdome and providence every waies answerable to this his faithfulnesse , it cannot be conceived but that with his precepts , counsels , and directions , for the advancement and prosperity of the gospel , he hath taken up and filled the whol roomth or space , which is capable of receiving injunctions , orders , or directions in that kind so that no man can add , insert or thrust in any thing byway of advice , or under the notion of a prudentiall contrivance for the promoting of the gospel , but he must justle or thrust out , and ( in our saviours phrase ) make of none effect , some or other of those precepts , or directions , which have been given by the lord christ himself , for the same end . even as the pope cannot gratifie any new saint with a day in the kalendar but onely either by turning some of the more ancient out of their long-continued possessions , or else by compelling them to take the other into part & fellowship with them in their honour , because the kalender is from the one end of it to the other , already filled with the names o● the more ancient : in like manner the whole latitude & compasse of wisdome and prudence for the due & successfull managing of the affaires of the gospel , being spread with the orders and charges given by jesus christ in that behalf , it is not possible for men to devise or se●…on foot any method , meanes , or device of theirs for the promoting of this end , but by disauthorizing , or with reflexion of disparagement upon , some or other , or all , of the said prescriptions of christ nor is it possible for any man to invent or form any projection , or make any provision , which upon a true account will be found in any degree materiall , or pertinent , for the welfare or successe of the gospel , wherein he hath not been prevented by the great authour and father of the gospel himself otherwise it must be supposed that men are , either ( as hath been said ) wiser then god , and able to supply that , which hath been wanting in him ; or else that they are more sollicitous and carefull over the interest of the gospell , more intent upon the salvation of the precious soules of men , then he. therefore the two commissions we implead , the one of triers , the other of ejectors , being neither of them given in charge by jesus christ for the promotion of the gospel nor holding any true or reall communion with any of his orders in that behalfe , must needs be of another spirit and tendency from these , and rather counter-workers , then co-workers with them : and this experience it self hath sufficiently discovered . to entrust an inconsiderable number of men , subject to the like errours , passions , weaknesses , miscarriages , with all other men , with a negative vote , yea i had almost said with an affirmative also , in and about the placing and displacing , and disposing of all ministers over all the respective congregations , ( i mean parochial ) in a great nation , is an unchristian and unheard of prodigie , and must needs be of a sad abode and portendance unto the people , especially unto the godly and well affected party of the people in that nation . for by this meanes , in case the triers shal at any time be froward , or shall upon any pretence bear a private grudge against a parish or congregation , or any considerable person , whether for religion , or otherwise , in it ; or shall judge him unsound in the faith , whom the congregation shall desire for their minister , for some special opinion , one , or more , for which ( it is possible ) the congregation may in speciall manner desire him , and can desire or admit of none that is contrary-minded ; in all these cases ( and possibly in many other the like ) a congregation may never be permitted to enjoy such a minister whom they can cordially reverence or affect , or by whom they can edifie , but must either be like sheep scattered , and in danger of being lost for want of a shepherd , or else content themselves to be in subjection to such a person in this great office , whom the triers , pro libitu suo shall obtrude upon them , be he never so froward , never so unsufficient , never so unsound in judgement , or ill-conditioned otherwise . the said commissions , especially as they have been , and still are from time to time acted and administred , entrench upon the spiritual rights and priviledges of the people of god . for whereas they are invested by christ jesus with a liberty or power to chuse for themselves ( and accordingly to enjoy whilst they please , and god give the opportunity ) a spiritual shepherd , a man to be over them in the lord , and to take the charge and care of their souls , the commissioners we speak of take upon them by virtue of the said commissions , when , and as oft as they plese , to keep asunder those whom god would have joyned together , and disgracefully reject and thrust by him , though never so worthy , whom the people have greatly desired , and accordingly chosen , to serve them in that great work : and refuse to grant the indulgence of their passe , but unto such who will swallow their camels , and yea it , and nay it , with them from the one end of their faith unto the other . the commission of triers , strikes , though not formally and directly , yet materially and in effect , at the civil rights both of many parishes or bodies of people , and of many particular persons likewise in the land , viz. all theirs , both in the one kind and the other , who by law are invested with a law-right of presentation unto parochial demesns , which are called benefices , or spiritual promotions . for though such parishes and persons , still may ( and i suppose do ) present whom they judge meet , to such preferments , yet the men of their recommendation though never so deserving , lye at the mercy of the triers whether they shall ever possesse and enjoy such preferments collated upon them , or no . by means whereof , as often as these triers shall please to act their power in quarrelling and opposing the clerk presented unto them by either of the said patrons ( a practise whereof they are not over-tender , whether there be any christian or reasonable cause for their so acting , or no ) the patrons are not simply defeated of those accommodations , which the law intended them in their right of presentation : but this with disparagement and reflection ; and this both upon themselves , as desirous to gratifie and perfer unworthy men ; and upon their friends also , or persons presented by them , whom in such cases , they cast out as unsavoury salt upon the dunghil , good for little but to be troden under foot by men . so that by means of the commission we implead , and her sons , the right and priviledge , of presenting is so far , in the practick & exercise of it , from being a royal priviledge , or matter of conveniency unto men ( as the law intended ) that it is turned into a snare & occasion of dishonour & trouble onely , both to themselves , & those whom they in special manner desire to gratifie . yea by meanes of that power which is invested in the triers by their commissions , in conjunction with their interest , and subtilty of working and bringing about their ends , they are found ( effective ) the patrons of all spirituall livings in the nation ; and accordingly receive the tribute of thanks and acknowledgements due to patrons and benefactors ( if no baser mettal withall ) from those , who by the light of their countenance come to find the way to those preferments . and whereas in the daies of prelacy , in case the bishops , who were then the triers , were at any time sullen , or froward , or corrupt , so as upon any illegall or any unjustifiable pretence to refuse to admit to a benefice any clerk presented unto them , there lay a quare impedit against them , and they might be , and sometimes de facto were , compelled by law , to do that which became them in this case , and to give their pass of institution to those , against whom there was no material or legall exception , though otherwise never so much disrellished by their lordships ; the triers of the last edition are mounted upon thrones of power and authority far above the line and level of their predecessors and forefathers ( the bishops ) for these are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , plenipotentiary in the highest in their proceedings ; they esteem all laws , but as leviathan esteems iron and brasse , he esteemeth iron as straw , and brasse as rotten wood ; they with the pope , laugh all appeals to scorn , and with the wilde asse in jeremy , being used to the wilderness , snuff up the winde at pleasure , and fear not in their occasions to be turned away by any man . never was there such a rule-less , law-less , controuleless generation of men set up in this nation over the lords people in it : never was there the like unsufferable yoak of slavery fastened about the necks of the free born people here , as the power given by commission unto , or at least claimed and exercised by , these men , upon pretence of such commission . where there are great numbers of men in a state or nation , and a great part of these very considerable for true and reall worth , as for piety , holiness , zeal of god &c. on the one hand ; and so for choiceness of parts , endowments , and abilities on the other hand , who are divided in judgement about many great questions and controversies in christian religion ; it is broadly contrary to all approved principles of state-policy , and much more of christian piety , to set up and arm one of these parties with power and authority to judge and sentence the other , yea to tread and trample them under their feet like clay and mire in the streets , and this without all remedy or relief , either by appeal , or otherwise , from any man . for is not such a course or practice as this , of a direct and manifest tendency to beget a spirit of insolency , extravagancy , and oppression , in the party thus exorbytantly advanced and impowred ; and consequently to engender , nourish and foment in the party oppressed , a spirit of discontent , disaffection , and of waiting an opportunity for a rescue and deliverance ? or are not the commissions we speak of , of this calculation ? do they not set up a generation of men to be judges over those , who dissent from them in some weighty matters of faith ? or do not the men thus set up exercise a bloudy dominion over their adversaries onely for dissenting from them ( although they nick-naming the same , call it , a dissenting from the truth ) dooming them and theirs from time to time , with the prophet micaiahs doom ) to be fed with the bread of affliction , and water of affliction , or to suffer cold , hunger , nakedness and all extremity , if god will not look after them , and by his more than ordinary providence , provide better than so for them ? to spread snares and temptations in the way of mens consciences , so as to expose them to danger of pollution and defilement , and of offering violence to themselves , is not consistent with a good conscience in any man , or with the approved principles of christianity . but judge this rather , that no man put a stumbling block , or an occasion to fall in his brothers way , rom. . now whether the men armed with the power and authority of the two commissions protested , do not either by vertue , or colour , of the said commissions frequently perpetrate and practice the said high unchristian misdemeanor , i could be content to make themselves judges , if they would but make their own proceedings the law , and rule of their sentence . for . is not the simple professing and owning of those great and important truths of god that christ dyed , or gave himself a ransome for all men ( as the scripture saith ) that god reprobated no man under a personall consideration , nor intended so to reprobate any man , from eternity , that he vouchsafeth a sufficiency of means unto all men whereby to repent and be saved , that he neither constraineth , nor necessitateth , any man to believe , or to be saved , that those who at present truly believe , may put [ or thrust ] away a good conscience from them , and hereby make shipwreck of their faith , and perish ; is not ( i say ) the professing and owning of these most worthy truths ( with others confederate with them ) a bar against all spirituall or ecclesiastick promotion in the course and processe of their consistory ? and may not thieves and murderers as soon ( or sooner ) purchase the seal of their approbation , and ( solutis solvendis ) obtain their passe unto any benefice , or augmentation , as men whose faces are but set towards any the said tenents , though otherwise never so signally qualified , both with moralls and intellectualls for the ministry ? again is it not their guise and manner to scrue and dive as far and as deep as they know how , into the judgements and conscience of those who come before them ( at least if they be not known vassalls to their sense in the points mentioned , before hand ) to discover , whether there be not some touch or tincture ( at least ) of some propension or verging of judgement towards those erroneous opinions ( erroneously so called ) to be found there ? if they answer any whit tenderly in the case , or but whisper the least {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} construable in favour of any of those opinions , actum est ilicet , perierunt , they are lost and undone men : they are presently condemned ( they and theirs ) by these consistorian judges , to the spade , or flail , or else to cleaness of teeth , or begging their bread where they can finde it . so that when young men who are fair for preferment , & want nothing but these mens , good will in wax and paper to the possession and enjoyment of it , shall come before them , knowing that they are not like to be supplyed with that which they want in this case , but by a professed disowning those great truths of god [ lately specified ] let the regret of their judgements and consciences in the act be never so strong , are they not now under a sore temptation , and hard to be resisted by flesh and bloud , to dissemble both with god and man , and to pollute their consciences , in case they stand inwardly convinced of the clearness of those truths , which they are thus sorely tempted openly to renounce and disclaim ? and may not such faultring and dissembling with god as this , prove , yea hath it not oft proved , of that sad consequence , as to occasion such a breath between him , and his creature , as was never repaired afterwards ? woe to such a generation of men that shall spread such snares of death , lay such stumbling blocks , as these in their brethrens way . if they stumble and fall by them , shall not their bloud be required at their hands ? or did balaam escape the revenging hand of god , who taught balack to cast a stumbling block before the children of israell ? see josh. . . or is it regular , or worthy persons professing christianity , to reward men with their favour and approbation , in order to their preferment , who shall do unworthily by sinning against their judgements and consciences ; and on the other hand to obstruct those in their way , and hereby set a black brand of reproach upon them , who shall deal clearly , candidly , and christianly with them ? or is not this the way when occasion serves , of those men , who have not lifted up themselves upon the wings of the two commissions mentioned , to make their nests among the stars ? according to the best principles of christian policy , such men , who are like to thrust the best of those back from working in the lords harvest , which the lord of the harvest thrusts forward to his work there , are not to be invested with any such authority or power , by which they shall be enabled to do this great disservice both unto god and men . but such are the persons , at least the far greater part of them ( and such were they before their intrustment ) who by the commissions aforesaid , are made the authorized judges of the judgements of all the ministers ( at least of all the publick ministers ) of the nation ; they are , and were , by a true and solid estimate of them ( in respect of their spirit , principles , and tenents , ) not onely , like to presume and undertake to prescribe unto god and jesus christ , who , and what manner of persons they should do well to authorize and imploy in the publick ministry in this nation ; and again , who , and what manner of persons it would be expedient for them to reject and put by from that imployment ; but further , more generally to recommend and order unto them ( that i say not , obtrude upon them ) for the service , men far less competent , than many of those , whom they ( god i mean , and the lord christ ) recommend daily , and providentially send unto them for their approbation , and yet are disallowed and rejected by them . for certainly they who know , understand , and believe , and are excellently qualified to teach the just compass and extent of the grace [ or free grace ] of god in the death and gospell of his son ( and so are uniform and consistent in their teachings ) other endowments , as of meekness , humility , love , zeal , good will to the work &c. concurring , are persons more competent for the work of the ministry , than those , who confining the said grace of god within the narrow sphere of their own apprehensions , are hereby inevitably entangled in the course of their ministry , so as ever and anon to pull down , what even now they built up ; and again , presently to build up , what a very little before they pulled down . and yet such is the spirit , such the principles and tenents of the men now under censure ( and the nature and property of all these accordingly might easily have been known by those who put them into commission , before this grand and unhappy oversight was committed ) that they take themselves bound in conscience to admit the latter onely , with the two grand incompetencies mentioned , into the work of the ministry , and to say unto the former , notwithstanding those signall characters upon them ( lately mentioned ) with other qualifications comporting , notably marking them out for the said great work , you are not fit to serve at the altar , not meet to have part or fellowship in this business of the ministry ; you are not of our judgements in all points , wherein we are infallible : therefore we must smite you with the rod of our power , and break you in pieces like potters vessels , that you may learn not to remonstrate , nor take up the truth in contestation with us . the commission for triers , as the sons of the womb thereof glosse it by their practice , is of a very hard , yea mischievous calculation , whensoever the patron , whether person , parish , or any other company of men , who have the right of nomination or presentation of a minister , shall be found of differing ( though of a better , and more sound ) judgement from the said triers . for in case he be orthodox in the great doctrines of universal attonement by christ , of conditional perseverance ( with the rest of the same band of association ) wherein it is sure enough that the triers are heterodox ( or at least professe to hold that , which is interpretatively as much , for i know not well how they should escape an inward conviction ) he should not answer the law or dictate of a good conscience to offer or present unto the triers a man dissenting in such weighty points from himself , especially , when he knoweth a person like minded with himself , regularly capable in all other respects of such a presentation , and willing to be presented . yea very possibly the judgement and conscience of a patron may ( through a mistake ) resent it as a thing unlawfull , for him to present any man , whom he judgeth not sound in these great doctrines of the gospell , or that doubteth of , or denyeth the universal extent of christs death . in this case , the people destitute ( at present ) of a minister or spiritual shepheard , are like to be destitute still : and for six months at east to be exposed to all the evils & dangers that are incident to a people , like unto sheep scattered , and not having a shepheard : and at the six months end the patron , whoever he was ( primum in unoquoque genere est excipiendum ) being non-suited in the plea of his priviledg the people , if their sacerdotal demeansbe any thing considerable , are like to have some favourite of the times , wearing black , instead of a minister , thrust upon them , or otherwise to remain spiritually waste and desolate for the patron , in the case we now speak of , cannot upon the account of his conscience , present a man passeable in respect of his judgment , with the triers : and the triers again , upon the account of theirs ( at least as they pretend ) cannot passe any man of a passeable judgement with the other . and thus by means of this un-christrian and irreconcileable {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} between the patron and the triers , unhappily occasioned by the commission , the poore people are miserably distracted and oppressed in their spirituall estates , being fed with the ayre instead of the bread of life ; and the patron suffers an illegall defeature of his just desire on the behalf of the worthy person presented by him : and the person rejected , an uncivill ( that i say not , an unchristian ) affront , and undeservered blot in his reputation . it is a maxime the truth whereof is avouched by the experience of all ages , ( in most cases at least ) nulla potentia fida est , si sit nimia ; no power is trusty , if it be over great . the reason may be , because all power being matter of trust and depositure , for the use and benefit of those , who depone it , and those who are entrusted , accountable to the trustees ; when either it is at first conferred in too large a proportion , and without such cautions , limits , and provisos , which are necessary for the regulation and due ordering of it in its exercise and administration ; or else in the course and exercise of it , is from time to time permitted to stretch it self beyond the line of its original grant , and so by degrees to swell and grow out of all shape , to a prodigeous kinde of enormity , it is apt to become unweildy and unruly in his hand that holds it , and to teach him things that are exorbitant and uncomely : yea he that understands himself armed with power incompetent for men , greater then subjection to give an account of its actings unto any man , is not like to be far from such an intoxication , which inclines men to think that they are some demi-gods , & that it is but reason that both the natural and civill rights and priviledges , and comforts , yea and consciences also of other men , should be sacrificed upon the service of their interest , or pleasure onely . it is generally known what monstrous and blasphemous conceits with practices sutable , the overgrown power claimed and exercised by the pope , hath dictated unto him , and ingaged him to justifie and maintain . and is not the power , claimed and acted by the triers , whether by vertue of their foundation , or by the underhand indulgence and connivence of their founders , very superlative , and of the house and lineage of the papall ? the popes ( saith thuanus ) held it for a principle inviolable not to confesse themselves to err in any thing : and pope nicholas made a decree , that none presume to reprehend his judgment , nor to judge of it : it hath been a long time obtruded upon the world , to believe the infallibility of the papall chair . the absolute anomie and lawlesnesse of the pope is such , or claimed for such , that no man may judge of him , no man may dispute of his judgement , or call it in question , though he draw millions of souls with him into hell . when the emperour charls came to rome to reform the abuses of the pope , and began to enquire of them , answer was made by all here , that the apostolique see being the head of all churches , ought to be judged of none ; especially , not by a lay man . the spirituall man judgeth all things , but he himself is judged of no man , is pleaded for the popes priviledge of exemption from all censure or question . the popes in their decretals and canonists , arrogate and assume to themselves plenitudinem potestatis & scientiae ; and teach that they have one and the same tribunall with god and christ jesus . they suffer none to buy or sell ( as the scripture speaketh ) but onely those that wonder after them , or that have the mark , or the name of the beast , or the number of his name . is there not an eye of these principles , practises , and usurpations in the spirits and practises of our tryers ? if any minister that comes before them shall dispute , or call into question their judgments , though never so erroneous and destructive to the precious souls of men ( as in the points of election , reprobation , the death of christ , &c. ) is he not made a grand delinquent for so doing , and the doore of preferment , ipso facto , shut up with bars of iron against him ? if any man wonders not after them and their leanring and tenents , do they not presently set the black brand of their reprobation upon him , and interdict him all communion in all ecclesiasticall matters , where they have to do ? and as the popes parasites have a saying in gratification of their great master and his greatnesse , what the pope doth , is done ; meaning , is so done , as not to be reversed or undone by any authority whatsoever ; so are the proceedings of these men in their lawlesse consistory ; so auto-cratoricall and sacred , that they magnifie themselves against all appeal and reversall by men if they shut , no man can open . now their power , whether by investiture , usurpation , or connivance , being thus vast , and disproportioned to the weaknesse and obnoxiousnesse of flesh and blood , it is no otherwise like , but that it should miscarry in the exercise of it , and be found treacherous and disloyall to the interest and comforts of those , who are subject unto it , unto whom notwithstanding it oweth the best of its service and administration . and is not the generation of tryers accordingly troublesome and burdensome with their power , to the greatest part of the nation ; yea to far the greater part of the truly godly and well affected here ? do they not use it to the making and maintaining of parties and factions , to the gaining and multiplying of disciples to themselves , to the avenging themselves upon their enemies ( so supposed by them for not subjecting their judgements and consciences unto them ) to the ingratiating of themselves with some men , affronting and trampling others under their feet ? do they not use it to the wringing and straining of many mens consciences , by imposing the bloudy law of a necessity upon them , either to praise their sayings and commend them for orthodox , by professing themselves of the same sense and judgement with them ( though they be really and inwardly of an other ) or else to feell the weight of their loyns , and to be cast into their hell fire , where there is weeping and wailing for want of bread , and other things needfull for the life of man ? yea do they not use it to the spiritual affamishing and starving of some parishes by obstructing the entrance and accesse of such worthy persons , onely because they are not of their faction and party , who are designed for the feeding of them with the bread of life , by those , who judge themselves bound in conscience , according to their trust by law , to make provision for them in this kinde ? the day would fail me to rehearse and insist upon all the particulars of the irregular and erroneous deportments of persons lifted up to a height of power , above what their heads and hearts are able to bear , upon the wings of an unhappy commission . the gospel stands in no need of any commission or constitution of humane devise or contrivance , to promote or carry on the interest of it in the world . the fervent and constant prayers of the saints , with their proper fruits and effects , thorough the gracious audience and condescention of god vouchsafed unto them , are sufficient to render the state and condition of the gospel flourishing and prosperous on the earth ; at least in conjunction with the observance of such other orders and directions , as the lord christ hath plainly and in perspicuous terms left us in the gospel , in order hereunto . a pray ye therefore the lord of the harvest that he will send [ or thrust , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] forth labourers into his harvest . labourers thrust forth into the lords harvest , will , through the ordinary blessing of god upon their labours , advance the interest of the gospel amongst men , as our saviour himself in this passage of scripture clearly supposeth ; because otherwise it were not worth the while to pray for their thrusting forth , as viz. in case their thrusting forth were like to turn to no account either of glory unto god , or benefit and blessing unto men . and yet we see that christ prescribes no other course or means for the obtaining of this high favour from god , but prayer onely : therefore certainly this is sufficient for the obtaining of it at his hand . by the way ; our triers are so far from being co-workers , or co-actors with god in his gracious act of thrusting forth labourers into his harvest , that they are counter-workers against him many times , and when he thrusts forth labourers indeed , they thrust them back , thrusting loiterers and unworthy men upon him in their stead . and doubtlesse the lord christ , who when time was , desired nothing in this world ( at least comparatively ) before his departure from it , but onely to see that fire kindled which he came to send on the earth , ( luke . . ) . i. to see the gospel ( as it were ) to have gotten some footing , and taken some good hold in the world , was sollicitous and provident enough by himself , or by his apostles ( at least ) to order and enjoyn all things necessary or meet for the propagation and spreading of it upon terms of the best advantage after him , and not to leave so important an affair to the umpirage , care , or contrivance of the secular powers ; yea , the truth is , and the experience of many ages hath demonstrated it , that as for men to blend the grace and merits of christ with the righteousnesse of the law and their own works , for the procurement and obtaining of justification , is a certain way or means never to be justified ( gal. . , , . ) in like manner for men , whoever they be , to compound the wisedome , counsells and institutions of christ for the advancement of the gospell in the world , with their own devises and inventions , and so to incumber and intangle them , is the next way to obstruct the course of the gospell , and to keep it from running so as to be glorified in the world . and yet the professing powers of this world , have in all times had itching desires to be officious unto jesus christ in this kinde , and to obtrude upon him their own projections and inventions to accommodate and help him through the world with his worship and gospell : a course , which however it still may have gratified the flesh of some ignorant professors , together with many such , who have been inordina●e lovers of this present world , and the darlings of the times , yet never did the heart of the gospell , nor the serious and hearty profession thereof , ever prosper or rejoyce in it . unto which of the kings or potentates of the earth did the lord christ ever say , i have ordained you by your wisedome power , and authority , to supply that , which hath been wanting in me and my apostles , for the propagation of my gospell in your dominions ? the kings and princes of this world , cannot regularly , or with a good conscience , assume or exercise any further , or other power , or authority , than what hath been regularly vested in them , or conferred upon them by the people , by whom god hath called or advanced them to their respective entrustments . for as god in these daies doth not make kings or supreme rulers immediately , or by divine dictate , designation , or order extraordinary , but mediately by those that are to be ruled and governed by them ; so niether doth he give them their power immediately , but by those who call them unto their trust of government . now god never gave any commission or authority unto these to confer upon their rulers , either any other kinde , or further degree of power , than what by the law of nature himself hath seated in them , or in their communities ( respectively ) in order to the regular government of themselves . so that regularly vested by the people with any such authority or power rulers cannot be , which is not vested in them by god , or nature . and if any people should derive ( or rather intend or declare to derive ) unto their prince or chief ruler , whom they set over them , any such power , which they have not themselves , either formally , or eminently , their act of delegation or derivation in this kinde is null and void ; as any donation of what is not the givers own , or which he hath no right to give , is a nullity , and nothing passeth to another by vertue of it . and yet more evident it is , that chief rulers and magistrates have no right of claim to any such authority , nor can with a good conscience exercise or act any such power or authority , which never was conferred , nor intended to be conferred upon them , by their people . now . certain it is that no body ( much less any politick or civill body ) or community of people , hath any authority or power from god , either by the law of nature , or otherwise , to establish any such rule or law , one , or more , amongst them , no not by or with the universall consent of every individual member of this body , according unto which they shall all stand bound to believe every man the same things with an other in all points of christian religion , or that any one mans judgement , or the judgement of any number of men amongst them , shall be the standard unto which all the rest shall conform their judgements in matters of faith or worship , or else incurre some civill punishment . the reason is , because god never gives a power unto any man , or any number of men , to enslave or subject the consciences of men in matters appertaining unto himself , either unto themselves & their judgement , or unto any others ; or to inflict any civill mulct or punishment upon any man , for thinking that they are mistaken in some of their tenents concerning god , and christ , and consequently that he ought to dissent from them . god reserves the legislative power over the consciences of men unto himself alone : therefore in case any people should conferre , or do what lies in them to conferre , such a power as this upon their soveraign magistrate or ruler , this magistrate or ruler should have no right at all , either to own , or exercise this power , notwithstanding the intended collation of it upon them by his people . yet a it is at no hand probable , nor have i so much as ever heard , or read , it insisted upon , or pleaded , by the rulers in chief in this nation , or on their behalf , that the people of this land ever gave unto them , or invested in them , any such power as that now declared , viz whereby they might invest any one , or more of their subjects ( muchlesse of forreigners or strangers ) with power and authority to mold and form the judgements and consciences of their fellow subjects in matters of faith , or ( which is the same ) to inflict any civill mulct or punishment , or to set any brand of publick infamy and reproach upon them , as by excluding them as unworthy , from places of publick trust , yea from all means of livelihood and subsistance , of which they are ( in an ordinary way ) capable , and ever likely to obtain , onely because they cannot set their judgements by theirs , or make one lip with them in some controverted points of christian religion . therefore the commission , by vertue or pretence wherof our triers ( and there is not a much differing consideration of their brethren in iniquity , our ejectors , and their commission ) sell their brethren ( many of them persons not inferiour in any point of christian worth to the best of themselves ) into the hand of poverty and disgrace , onely because they will not prostitute their judgements to the lust and ambition of theirs , stands not upon any regular foundation of power or authority : nor is there any person , or number of persons under heaven , competent or duly qualified to enjoyn such an execution of this commission , as that , which that occupied part of our triers , who keep the stage , lift up their hearts and hands unto from time to time , and are more ( it is greatly feared ) than connived at , by those who have power to restrain them from their evill . the spanish inquisition accuseth aloud the romish religion of cruelty and bloud , and so of a pregnant and fiery antipathy to the genius and spirit of the gospell , which magnifie themselves in their high attempts of working the hearts and spirits of men to all meekness , sweetness , and love . if so much of the commission of triers , wherein no son thereof is named , is so far innocent , as not to fimbolize with the spirit or genius of the said inquisition , yet the names of some of the children in the womb of it , presaged that by such an interpretation as they meant to give unto it in their way of execution , they would reduce it to a near affinity therewith . and what the names persaged , the men have effected and brought to passe ( yea it seems that the minde and intent , whether antecedent , or subsequent , or both , of those who armed them with that power and authority , by which they act so inquisition , like , that not milk to milk , not egge to egg , more like , was . i wish i could say , but is not , that they should understand their commission to signifie as much as they practice . ) for what do the bloudy fathers of the inquisition more than feed men better , and more orthodox and sound in the faith , than themselves , with the bread of sore affliction , under the pretence of heresie and dangerousnesse of opinion ? and what do our consistory , or inquisition of triers yea of ejectors also ●lesse ? do they not from time to time ( in effect ) grinde the faces , and break the bones of men of signall piety and worth , who know more of god , and of his gospell , and grace here , than themselves , under a pretence of errour , unsoundnesse in doctrine , holding dangerous opinions , and such calumniating and unchristian imputations ? do they not expose such persons with their wives and children , and all depending on their hand for outward supplies , to the suffering of all extremities of hunger , cold , nakednesse , famine , ignominy , disgrace , &c. by thrusting them back in a contumelious and disgracefull manner , from such livelihood and means of subsistance , which both god and man had agreed to provide for them , and bestow upon them ; and this onely for not complying with the lusts of their ignorance and ambition , and not imbasing their consciences by professing the same profession of an erroneous and misgrounded faith with them ? for let this be but done , the men are satisfied and overcome , the door of entrance is opened immediately : and let the clerk or register be but a little over-considered , the dedimus potestatem will be given with the heaped measure of expedition . when the trees of the forrest ( in jothams parable ) went forth to annoint a king over them , the olive-tree , the fig-tree and the vine , refused the honour , though offered unto them , alleadging , that if they should accept it , they must part with their severall serviceablenesses ( respectively ) both unto god and men , which they pleaded was not meet for them to do . onely when the trees came to the bramble , and made their motion unto it , the bramble accepted it , but withall enjoyned them ( prince-like ) to put their trust in his shadow ; threatening them , that if they should not , fire would come out of the bramble , and devoure the cedars of lebanon . the honour ( such as it is ) which is delegated by the two commissions of triers and ejectors , was not proper to be entertained by men , who were conscious of any usefulnesse in themselves for the service , either of god or man , unlesse they mean to part with it , and take this honour in exchange for it . nor was it like to be accepted but onely by brambles , who had a minde to scratch , and rend , and tear the flesh , of those who should come near them , and withall refuse to put their trust in their shadow , [ i mean in their learning and judgement touching matters of faith ] and there is a fire come out from these brambles , [ the consistory of triers , and consistory of ejectors . ] which hath devoured the cedars of lebanon : they have consumed and undone persons of eminent growth and stature in all christian worth and excellency ; and if their kingdome be continued unto them , are like to devoure more . men of christian and sweet principles would have bethought themselves of better opportunities for the exercise and improvement of them , than a fitting upon a consistorian throne to the great grievance and offence ( in a manner ) of a whole nation , and for the selling of their brethren into the hand of poverty , disgrace , and all manner of misery , and this for no other crime or misdemeanor , than this conceit of their own , that their brethrens faith in some points ( and these by their own confession , very obscure , mysterious , and abstruse ) is not so good and commendable , as theirs . men of modest and christianly ingenuous spirits would never endure it , that their brethren , some of them ( it may be ) every waies ? equall to the best of themselves , should take long , wearisome , and chargeable journies , from the remotest part of the land to give attendance upon them , sitting upon their seats of honour , and with patience , reverence and submission , to wait their leisure and pleasure , ( i know not how long ) for the dispatch of their occasions , yea the leisure and pleasure of their underlings , whether register , clarks , or by what other name they call them . no argument that yet hath been , or ( there is sufficient ground to believe ) can be alledged for the necessity of that establishment of triers , which hath been hitherto opposed is much considerable . for what reason can there be for any necessity to exchange or put by such a way or method , which is generally known , for another , which besides that it threatens a disturbance and discontent through the novelty of it , is not like to obviate or prevent those inconveniencies , that are sometimes found in the former , unlesse it be with introducing or occasioning greater in their stead ? for what if patrons of benefices , whether parochiall congregations , or single persons , have sometimes recommended or preserted unworthy men to some of these places , have not the triers been as great or greater delinquents in this kinde , as they ? have not they approved of , and given wings unto birds of as unclean a feather , as any that were wont to fly from the others hand ? i alwaies judged it beneath a spirit of ingenuity to hold intelligence with any man for information of the sinister , and undue practices of men , or to give encouragement unto those , who love to be the messengers of such tidings ; nor did i ever bestow the fourth part of an hour in following the scent of any report i have occasionally met with concerning the triers , and their unhandsome and unhallowed doings in their way , although i have met with many in this kinde : nor have i kept a register either with my pen or memory , of such stories . onely i cannot but be sensible of the smart , which ever and anon i suffer , with having both my ears beaten with the loud complaints , clamours , and out-cries , which i hear from many of their transeats or passe-ports granted to the first-born of undeserving men , and of their being denied in the mean time to persons excellently qualified , and commended unto them by god , as well as by men , for that great work of the ministry . in this latter , they are much more irregular and obnoxious , than the other patrons we spake of ; yea , even when they stumble at the stone of unworthy presentations . for though in these cases they behave themselves amisse in helping chaplains , taken out the devils school , to imployment in gods house ; yet do they not ( thus far ) contumeliously entreat more deserving men , nor obstruct their way to any preferment , unto which god hath called them . therefore they are much lesse peccant of the two , than our commissioned triers . the truth is , the generality of the triers , being men bent in their dispositions and desires to promote a faction under the name and pretence of countenancing orthodox doctrine , and to suppresse all of a contrary judgement to themselves as erroneous men , corrupt and dangerous in their principles &c. it was none otherwise like from the beginning , but that they would steer that crooked course , which now they have steered ; and that they would shine the light of their countenance upon men of the greatest demerit otherwise , if they were right for the design ; especially if it should so fall out ( as i suppose it hath done ) that men of a more regular behaviour and better fame , should not come in unto them fast enough , to compleat the number of disciples , and to augment the party to their minde . if it be argued on the behalf of the commission , that it is neither meet in point of conscience or religion , nor yet prudentiall or safe in point of policy , that all patrons , authorized for such by the law , should be suffered to prefer to the work of the ministry , in all places where they have to do , whom , or what manner of persons they please . for by this means a great part of the parochicall congregations in the land should ( in all likelihood ) have either popish , or ignorant , or ungodly , or malignant persons set over them in the work of the lord : the sad consequence whereof is every mans apprehension . i answer , . that in the case in hand , our english proverb is of too commodious an application ; the remedy is worse than the disease . for by means of the commission , and commissioners , operating together , not onely a great part of the parishes of the nation are ministerially supplyed with persons of all , or the most of , those evill characters mentioned in the plea , but many of them are defrauded also , or disappointed , of men of christian worth and choicely qualified for the office and work of the ministry , whom god had graciously provided for them , and men worse than barely insufficient obtruded upon them in their stead . . to prevent the dangers and inconveniences insisted on in the argument , it is no waies necessary ; either the same missioners should be entrusted with the inspection of the business throughout the whole nation , or that those that now occupie the places of commissioners , should put no difference between the vile , and the precious , but joyn both together in their decrees of reprobation ; if yet they do not put an unnaturall and left-handed difference between them , respecting the vile many times more than the precious , and making reprobates of these , when they approve of the other . and doubtlesse it had been a course much more promising a prevention of those evills , which the argument suggests and insinuates , to have framed the commission of triers , according to the modell and tenour of the commission for ejectors , and to have appointed men for that service in each county , ( respectively . ) so should the grandure of their authority and power have been some what more competent and tolerable , and not so hyper-archepiscopall , so supermetropolitan and roming as now it is . and ( as hath been already offered to consideration ) a competency of power , for the most part acquits it self with more diligence and faithfulness , than an extravagancy and excesse . a cup that is filled to the brim , is hardly carried without spilling . besides the device of triers , had it distributed it self into the respective counties , had been lesse burdensome by many degrees unto those , who live in the remote parts of the nation , when their occasions should necessitate them to do their homage of attendance unto them . . in case a project of trying all that should : passe into the publick ministry of the nation , be judged necessary to keep the people of the land free from infection by their teachers , as by drinking in doctrines dangerous , either to the soul , or to the state and present government , the work is more proper for the congregated churches through the nation , than for a petty handfull of clergy men ( as they are called ) unto whom alone it is now upon the matter devolved ( and was like to be from the beginning ) sitting in one angle onely of the nation : yea , and was much more like to prosper in the hand of the former , than of the latter . for besides that the holy ghost made use of churches , not of clergy men , to send forth men to preach the gospell , act. . . act. . . hereby declaring it to be a work more proper for them ; churches are like , first to be more considerate in what they should do in this kinde , than the sealed knot of triers ; these all being but a few , and making but one consistory , and so the whole businesse of trying throughout the nation lying on their hand , are in no capacity ( especially meeting so seldome consistorywise , as they do ) to allow a meet proportion of time for the regular traversing of matters committed unto them , at least not without constraining many of their suitors to dance a troublesome and burthensome attendance upon them for their dispatch ; whereas the churches being many , the work and businesse of trying being distributed amongst them ( as it is like it would be , in case it were committed unto them ) would have leisure to make a due inquiry into matters that should come before them , and this without any tedious or chargeable delay unto the persons . . it is like the churches would be more faithfull in the transaaction of the affair , as being lesse under tentation or secular inducements to miscarry , or act unworthily . they in their respective communities or bodies , have no relations of dependances upon , or expectations from , great men , nor are like to be swayed by recommendations , or other applications of persons claiming interest in them . how of the triers have dashed their foot at these , and such like stones , is known unto , and lamented by many . thirdly , neither are the church-bodies accomplished with any such politick reaches , deep methods , or subtil , contrivancies for the bringing about secular projects , or by-ends , as our triers are neither ( indeed ) are they in respect of their numbers , and complicated variety of interests and conditions in their respective members , very capable of conspiring or combinging so much as in the proposall of any unworthy or undue ends to themselves ; and in these respects are like to be more sincere and plain hearted in their proceedings , than they . fourthly , the churches being of different judgements touching discipline and worship , and some other opinions much controverted and debated amongst godly , sober , and worthy men in the nation , may amongst them , and this with a full concurrence and consent of their judgements , and without the least regret or check of conscience , accommodate all pious and godly persons of what judgement soever otherwise , in all their just desires or requests . whereas indignation and wrath against men dissenting in judgement from them , have lac'd the consciences of our triers so strait , that themselves professe , they are not at liberty , they cannot without sin open the door of entrance into the ministry unto any man , though otherwise never so well qualified thereunto , but onely unto those , whose thoughts are their thoughts , and who can make one spirit of judgement with them all along in the matters of christian faith and religion . fifthly ( and lastly ) the churches are by the good providence of god , commodiously dispersed ( as hath been lately hinted ) through the nation , for persons from all quarters thereof to repain unto one or other of them , without the trouble or charge of any tedious and long journey : whereas our english inquisitors [ sirnamed , triers ] having their chamber of audience fixed some hundreds of miles from the skirts and frontiers of the nation ( in severall parts of it ) impose an hard necessity ( differing little from a formall oppression ) upon all the candidate minister of these parts ) who must , by order of the commission , passe thorough their purgatory , or else never come at the elysian fields of a fair benefice ) to take journies so longsome , wearisome , and expensive , to come at them , that it may be a matter of doubtfull disputation , whether the sweet of the enjoyment of a good benefice , or the sowre of getting accesse to it , be preponderant . . if a triall of ministers before admission to a place of publick service , be admitted as necessary , and the churches of god in the nation not deemed competent to take , or make , a regular triall of them , yet why should not those , who are authorized as competent for the ordination , or creation of ministers , be judged competent for their triall ? or is it any good harmony in reason , either that they who are judged meet to be invested with the office of a minister , should not without a new and further triall , be entrussted with the work of a minister ? or that they , who are judged sufficient and meet to try men in reference to the former , should not be as sufficient for their triall in reference to the latter ? what need was there then of our new colledge of triers , the erection wherof , together with the irregular deportments of the masters of it , hath ( i dare say ) more disaffected the generality of the nation , and more especially of the better party of it , to the present government , than any other state transaction whatsoever . nor do i know any one act besides , whereby the government is more like to commend it self unto the people ( especially the people of god ) in the land , than by plucking up by roots , that which hath been so unhappily planted . but , . if neither churches , nor presbyteries , be wood of which to make the mercury of trying , yet why might not this image have been carved in smoother timber , and of a better grain , than that , wherein it is now formed ? why should the children of great assumings , and such who pretend their judgements be fairer than the moon , without spot , or stain of errour , or mistake ; who cannot with a good conscience give the lord christ in his servants any tolerable quarter , unlesse he will declare for them , and their opinions , who spread snares of death in mens way , and ( sathan-like ) tempt men to offer violence to their own judgements and consciences , and so to condemn themselves in that which they do allow , who count the crushing of godly men , to be godliness , if they understand more than themselves in the things of god ; why ( i say ) should men of this mold , rather than any other , be the proper materiall of which to form the trier ? is no vein of men meet to make triers , but they that can persecute the innnocent and harmless with a good , conscience , and think they do god service , when they keep out of his vineyard , those which he sends to labour in it , and who are like to make the best and faithfulest labourers here ? . why the respective congregations in the nation should not be allowed triers of those , that are to serve them in the work of the ministry , and to whom , upon that account , they are to allow maintenance , i believe no reason , that will hold water better than a sieve , can be given ; especially if it be but granted withall , that they are in a capacity to have ministers over them , or ( which is tantamont ) that they are in duty bound to maintain them . for if it be against reason that the state , or civill magistrate , should be any law , or edict , restrain men from hiring or entertaining such servants for their civill or domestick affairs , which they judge are like to prove most serviceable and usefull unto them in these , or to appoint others to assign them what servants in this kinde they please ; much more unreasonable is it , that greater bodies or societies of men should not be permitted to have such to serve them in their spirituall affairs , whom ( upon advise and consultation had with those , whom they judge most faithfull unto them , and best able to give advise in such cases ) they are really and conscienciously perswaded are most like to build them up in the sound and saving knowledge of god , and to promote the interest of their souls ; especially it being pretended or alledged ( and accordingly submitted freely unto by them ) that they are bound to maintain those , that shall minister unto them in this kinde . and as the magistrate is no waies accessary unto , or responsible for , the errour or weaknesse of such a man , who shall of himself entertain a negligent or unfaithfull servant , by whom he is much endammaged in his outward affairs ; but in case he had a servant authoritatively obtruded by the magistrate upon him , by whom he should suffer in this kinde , the magistrate were justly chargeable here : in like manner when a congregation shall be permitted either the choice , or allowance , of their minister , themselves onely ( with such their minister ) are culpable for what spirituall danger or detriment soever they shall incurre and sustain , either by his inability for , or unfaithfulness in , his work ; but in case the magistrate shall take this power from them , and will not suffer them to be the approvers or allowers of their ministers , but will by his power take this upon himself , now in what kinde or degree soever , the people shall spiritually suffer or miscarry , either by the ignorance or insufficiency , or by the negligence or unfaithfulness of him that teacheth them , the magistrate is justly chargeable before god with it . nor doth his guilt , or crime , in this case , lie in this , that he was deceived or mistaken in the man , whom he caused the people to receive for their minister , but in this rather , that voluntarily and without a call , he would be medling with such sacred edge-tools , as an authoritative and forcible imposing of ministers upon them . this is a direct way to bring all the bloud of all the souls that perish , either thorough the weakness , or wickedness , of the ministry , in all the parochiall congregagations in the land , upon the head of the magistrate : whereas if the people perish either by the insufficiency , or unfaithfulness , of a ministry of their own choice and approbation , in case they were vigilant , and circumspect in their act of choosing , or approving in this kinde , their bloud shall be chiefly required at the hand of their ministers : neither shall they contract any guilt , or incurre any further degree of condemnation , by their choosing , or approving such ministers , who afterwards prove negligent and unfaithfull in the work and charge committed unto them , because in these actions they put their sickles into their own corn , and not into other mens . . ( and lastly ) for danger likely to befall , the state , or government , by allowing the parochial congregations in the land the right of approving their own ministers ( respectively ) the truth is , that the danger is like to be the greater by their being denyed so just and equitable a priviledge , than by a permission to enjoy it . states never suffered by indulging their people in things reasonable and just ; but a forcible wresting out of their hand , or withholding from them , their due interests and rights , hath still been exasperating and provoking . and in case a minister allowed by the people , should prove of a malignant humour ; first , so may a minister though with the triers passe : this is no amulet or charm against malignancy . secondly , if a ministers tongue prove at any time malignant in the pulpit , there is another minister of god at hand to restrain him ( i mean the magistrate ) who beareth not the sword in vain . but though men who have committed murder or theft , may be put in prison for their misdemeanours perpetrated , yet may not others , who have not committed such facts , be imprisoned to prevent their committing them . thirdly , the greatest danger threatening the state from malignant ministers , is not by the opportunity they have , or may have , of preaching publickly , but by clandestine insinuations , consultations , irritations , &c , for the plotting and practising whereof they have both the more leisure , and may have the more opportunties , by being taken off , or put by their imployment in preaching . . ( and lastly ) vvhen persons somewhat ( it may be ) malignantly inclined , shall be contumeliously entreated by the state , or by their officers , as suppose any of them should be made to drink of the triers cup of reprobation ( as many a worthy man hath been ) is not this a direct way or means to awaken and set on work such an inclination ? therefore the politick consideration suggested in the argument in countenance of the triers , and their constitution , is clearly anti-politick , and frowns rather than smiles upon their consistory . and if policy having weighed them in her ballance , finde them wanting ; and religion having weighed them in the ballance of the sanctuary , hath found them yet wanting more : let their kindome be divided , and given to the congregations of the land . finis . these books following sold by h. eversden at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard . truth defended ; innocency cleared , being the declaration of the judgement of james arminius , dr. in divinity at leyden . the grand inquiery who is the righteous man , ( in ) by william moore , at whalley in lancashire . the seventh day sabbath sought out and celibrated , by thomas tillam in imputatio fidei , or a treatise of justification , wherein the imputation of faith for righteousnesse ( mentioned in romans , , th . ) is explained by mr. john goodwin in . mercy in her exaltation , a sermon preached at the funerall of mr. thomas tay lor , by mr. john goodwin . anabaptists meribab , or waters of strife , being an answer to mr thomas lamb merchant , by mr. price one of mr. goodwins congregation . postscript to the reader . if there be any thing found in the papers now in thy hand , which some may please to construe as favouring more of an undue liberty or plainnesse of speech , then of that reverence and respects , which are due unto authority , and more especially to that authority , from whence the two commissions impleaded therein , were issued ; the author desireth that it may be considered , . that the great men of the earth are in nothing more exposed to danger and disaster , then through want of seasonable smitings and reproofs of faithful men , upon their misdoings . . that all evictions and reproofs of irregular actions , being seasonably and duly administred , are more the reproofs of jesus christ , then of the men , who ever they be , by whom they are administred . . that kings and princes , and the greatest rulers of the earth , are , in their miscarriages , liable to the reproofs of jesus christ , as well as meaner men . . that those that reprove in the name of christ , and in his stead , are not in this service to respect persons , but only the nature and demerit of the cause or thing reproved . . and lastly , that the author stands particularly and publickly engaged to the nation , to take and use all christian boldnesse and freedome , in declaring unto the rulers of his people their errors and mistakes , upon the account of his zeal and faithfulness , so often publickly testified , in asserting not only the justifiablenesse of their authority and power , but of their actings also , when , and as far , as justifiable ; and were impeached and condemned by their greatest adversaries . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a psal. . . a prov. . . psal. , , . notes for div a e- a mat . . luke . . the remedie of unreasonableness. or the substance of a speech intended at a conference or dispute, in al-hallows the great, london. feb. . . exhibiting the brief heads of mr john goodwin's judgement, concerning the freeness fulness effectualness of the grace of god. as also concerning the bondage or servility of the will of man. occasioned by an undue aspersion cast upon him; as (viz.) that he held free-will in opposition to free-grace. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the remedie of unreasonableness. or the substance of a speech intended at a conference or dispute, in al-hallows the great, london. feb. . . exhibiting the brief heads of mr john goodwin's judgement, concerning the freeness fulness effectualness of the grace of god. as also concerning the bondage or servility of the will of man. occasioned by an undue aspersion cast upon him; as (viz.) that he held free-will in opposition to free-grace. goodwin, john, ?- . , [ ] p. printed by john macock, for lodowick lloyd, and henry cripps, and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley, london : . a reply to a verbal attack by john simpson. the words "freeness .. effectualness" are enclosed in brackets on title page. annotation on thomason copy: "feb "; the imprint date has been crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng simpson, john, th cent. free will and determinism -- early works to . grace (theology) -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the remedie of unreasonableness. or the substance of a speech intended at a conference or dispute, in al-hallows the great, london. feb. . goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the remedie of vnreasonableness or the substance of a speech intended at a conference or dispute , in al-hallows the great , london . feb. . . exhibiting the brief heads of mr john goodwin's judgement , concerning the freeness fulness effectualness of the grace of god . as also concerning the bondage or servility of the will of man . occasioned by an undue aspersion cast upon him ; as ( viz. ) that he held free-will in opposition to free-grace . and not rather , as we are slanderously reported , and as some affirme that we say , let us do evill that good may come ; whose damnation is just . rom. . . nonnulli intelligentes citiùs volunt exagitare , quod non intelligunt , quàm quaerere ut intelligant : & non fiunt humiles inquisitores , sed superbi calumniatores , aug. london , printed by john macock , for lodowick lloyd , and henry cripps , and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley . . to the reader . good reader , i had not troubled thee with these papers out of the press , had not the unreasonableness of those , who ministred the occasion , or necessity rather , of the contents of them , uncivilly denyed the liberty of an orall prolation of them , when time , and place ; and a good conscience , required it at my hand . at the former of the two late conferences or disputes held in all-hallows the great , london , between mr j : simson , and my self , he was pleased , upon no occasion at all given by me , to traduce me before the whole congregation there assembled , consisting of some thousands of people , as a man holding free-will in opposition to free-grace . at the latter of the said conferences , perceiving him not altogether so knowing what my sence or opinion was in the said points , and upon this ground , fearing the like of his friends and followers , who made up a great part of the present auditory , as well to relieve their ignorance herein , and free them from the guilt of an unchristian surmise against their christian brother , who never injured them , nor any one of them , in the least , as also to wipe off the blot from my self , which i had contracted by opposing uncivil men in the way of their error , i was desirous to have given an account of my faith touching the said particulars , together with the question agreed upon for present debate , in the presence of those that were there met to hear . but he that had the face to charge unduly , had not the heart either to stand by so unworthy an action , or to acknowledg the unworthiness of it . for when i desired leave over and over , and that with much earnestness , to have given some brief account to the people of my judgment , touching the things unjustly charged upon me by my antagonist , he peremptorily denyed it : and as oft as i made offer to speak upon this account , he , in a very unseemly manner , and with clamour , interrupted me , and suffered me not to speak . nor do i think that there can be an instance of a like unmanlike carriage produced out of al histories or records whatsoever ; i mean , that a person wrongfully accused , should not be permitted by his accuser , to speak what he hath to say in order to his purgation . another cake of the same dough was this . when i reasoned thus against his most absurd ( and indeed blasphemous ) opinion of gods reprobating men from eternity . if god reprobated men from eternity , then he reprobated himself , [ there being , neither thing , nor person from eternity , to reprobate , unless men will say , that he should reprobate himself . ] but god did not reprobate himself . ergo . he , with his train of disciples , ( whether out of weakness , or a worse principle , i will not judg ) expressed themselves with a kind of zealous indignation , as if i had spoken blasphemy , and affirmed , that god reprobated himself ; whereas expresly , and in so many words , i affirmed the quite contrary ( as the minor in the recited syllogism plainly imports ) charging that blasphemy , as a direct and unavoydable consequence of his opinion ; from which , neither he , nor his co-adjutors , were then able to vindicate the said opinion , nor will be able to the days of eternity . ne verò , ne me ad tales impellite pugnas . no more , good friends , no more ( i pray you ) of such disputes , and disputants , as these . but as jehojakim got nothing by cutting the prophet jeremiah's first roll in pieces , but only the writing of another by the same prophet , with an addition of more words like unto those written in the former a : so neither hath my antagonist gained any thing by stopping my mouth at the dispute , in not suffering me there to make streight , what he had made crooked , but only the publishing of the same things there intended to have been spoken , to the cognizance of far greater numbers of men , and this with some enlargement ( though not much ) in words of like consideration with them * . farewel : thine , in the lord christ , and his truth , john goodvvin . the substance of a speech intended at a conference or dispute , in all-hallows the great , london , febr. . . the question to be taken into consideration and debated at present , is , whether the gentiles , who wanted the ministry of the gospel by men , had not sufficient means notwithstanding to be saved . i am here ( god assisting ) to make proof of the affirmative ; viz. that such heathen had sufficient means for salvation , such a want notwithstanding . but first i must crave leave to open the state of the question , and to declare in what sence i hold and maintain , that the heathen , under the want of the ministry of the gospel by men , have yet sufficient means vouchsafed unto them by god whereby to be saved . i have so much the greater necessity lying upon me to give you a clear and distinct account of what my sence and judgment is in the present question , because by some words which fell from the opponent at our last dispute in this place , i clearly perceived that he altogether mistakes my opinion in the present controversies . for he was pleas'd to say , that i maintain free-will in opposition to free-grace , ( or words to this effect ) and pleaded this as a ground , why he could not give the right hand of christian fellowship unto me . now , to satisfie both him , and all you that are present , i here declare this day in the presence of god and all his holy angels , before you , and to all the world , i hold no freedom of will , nor any thing else , not any opinion whatsoever , in any the least opposition to free-grace . yea whensoever his opinion and mine , touching the freedom of the will in man , and of the grace of god in jesus christ towards men , shall come into a clear light , and be duly compared together . i know with the knowledg of a full assurance , that his opinion will ( of the two ) be found to be the far greater exaltress of free-will in men , and the greater abaser of the grace of god . there are many hundreds present , that have heard me from time to time deliver my judgment in publique , and many in private , touching the present controversies : i appeal to them all , conjunctim & divisim , whether ever they heard me utter so much as the least word tending to exalt the freedom of the will of man unto that which is good . my present opinion is , and my constant doctrine hath been , that the will of man destitute of the grace of god , and his co-operating assistance with it , is , or would be , most desperately wicked , and servile unto sin . yea and further , that notwithstanding the co-operative grace of god with it , yet it is exceeding apt and prone to be led captive unto sin by the devil . whereas the opinion of my antagonist ( being truly and fairly interpreted ) if it be contrary unto mine , is , that the will of man , by means of the co-operating grace of god with it , becomes free after the manner of the freedom of the will of god himself , i. e. so free unto that which is good , that it is unpossible for it not to move or to be carried out unto it . concerning the grace of god , there are three things , wherein the glory of it consists : the freeness of it : the fulness or extent of it : the force or efficacy of it . concerning the first of these , i clearly hold , and have upon all occasions constantly taught , . that the whole plot or counsel of god concerning the salvation of the world , is of free grace , of meer grace , and goodness of will , or pleasure in god . . that his purpose of election , or predestination of men unto life and glory , is an act of free grace also ; and that there was no obligation or necessity upon him to predestinate any man , or any sort of men , as now he hath done . . that the gift of jesus christ unto the world , is a gift of free grace , and that god was no ways obliged hereunto . . that , to give or confer justification , adoption , and salvation it self , upon believing in jesus christ , are acts of the pure and free grace of god . . that to give strength , power , and means of believing unto men , is an act of meer and free grace likewise . . that it is of the free grace of god , and by the help , and assistance thereof , that any man doth ever actually believe . . concerning the fulness , or extent of this grace ; my sence is , and my doctrine hath been , . in respect of persons , that it is not imprison'd or confin'd , within the narrow compass of an handful of men , in comparison ; or that it extends it self , either in the intentions of salvation , or in the provisions which it makes , or affords unto men for salvation , only unto those few , who come in time actually to believe , and to be saved , but that like the sun in the firmament of heaven , it compasseth the whole earth from the one end of it unto the other , and stretcheth it self unto all men . . in respect of the good , which it intends unto men , my opinion is , that it is exceeding full and comprehensive , i. e. that the good , or blessedness which god graciously intends unto men , in , and by the gospel , is a full , absolute , and compleat blessedness , containing every good and desireable thing in it . . ( and lastly , for this ) that in respect of the means , which it vouchsafeth and exhibiteth unto men , for the bringing them to the full enjoyment , of this blessedness , it is full and compleat also : so that the means , which god graciously exhibiteth unto men to make them blessed , are everyways sufficient for such a purpose , or end . . concerning the power or effectualness of this grace , i hold , and teach ( upon all occasions ) . that in the gift of a power , or a sufficiency of means unto men , whereby to believe , or to be saved , it is simply irresistible , and that men cannot frustrate or hinder this operation of it . . that what good thing soever any man doth , he doth it through the assistance of the free grace of god , and is in no capacity or meetness so much as to conceive or think a good thought without it : . and lastly , that when any man actually believeth , or is truly converted unto god , that he is mightily strengthned and assisted by the supernatural , or special grace of god thereunto : so that the act of conversion , or believing , is to be ascribed unto god , not only as the sole author and giver of that power , by which men do believe , but as the sole supernatural actor also of this power in the act it self of believing ; and that man , when he doth believe , is so far from having any cause , or ground of boasting in himself , because of this his believing , that he hath all the reason in the world to confess and say ( in our saviours prescript of words ) that he is an unprofitable servant , and hath only done that which was his duty , and that in abundance , to do . only i conceive that men are not necessitated by this grace of god , or any working thereof , to believe , whether they will or no : nor yet made willing upon any such terms , but that there is a possibility left unto them of nilling , or of remaining unwilling , to any moment or point of time , until the act it self of believing be produced . so that my opinion concerning the grace of god , being truly compared with the opinion of those that dissent from me , appears to have much more in it for the exaltation of the grace of god , then theirs : and theirs much more in it for the exaltation of the will of man , then mine . for . my opinion makes the grace of god so free , as to enrich the whole world , and all that is called man in it ; and that without the least engagement upon god from men thereunto : whereas their opinion imprisons it within a narrow compass of men ( in comparison ) and so bridles or stiffles the freeness of it ( in that consideration . ) . as in one branch of their opinion , they stiffle and destroy the glory of the freeness of it , so in another , they quite destroy the very nature or essence of it , and make it to be no grace at all . for that opinion , which makes the grace of god , the fountain or cause of no other actions in men , then such , as god cannot , according to the law and constant method of his remunerative justice , or bounty , reward , destroys the very nature of grace . and that the opinion , maintained by our opposers , doth this , is evident from hence ; viz. because that , making men to act necessarily and unavoydably , by means of the grace which is given them , maketh them to act physically , or as meer natural agents , and so reduceth all that they do by vertue of the grace of god , to the law and condition of meer natural actions , which , by the standing law of gods remunerative bounty , are not capable of reward by god . again , that their opinion , tends many thousand degrees , more then mine , to magnifie the wills of men , is evident thus : i affirm the wil of man even under the strongest and most effectual motions of the grace of god , whereof it is capable ( the nature and essential liberty of it only preserv'd ) to be in a capacity of sinning , and doing that which is evil ( which is the greatest abasement of the will , that can well be imagined ; ) whereas the other opinion , maketh the wills of men , under the effectual motions of the grace of god unto that which is good like unto the will of god himself ; i mean , necessarily and unchangeably good , and free from all possibility of s●●●ing , which is the highest exaltation of the will , that can well be conceived . and besides , that opinion , making men unable to do righteously , for want of the grace of god , when they sin and do wickedly , takes off the shame , and demerit of sinning from the wills of men , and either casts them upon god for denying his grace unto them , or else resolves them into nothing . whereas the opinion asserted by me , affirming , that men , when they sin and do wickedly , have sufficient means from god to refrain sin , and to do righteously , resolves the shame and whole demerit of sinning into men themselves , and their wills , and so renders them inexcuseable . thus you see how unjustly , and with manifest untruth , i have been charged to hold free-will against free-grace : and how that my accusers are the guilty persons themselves . concerning my opinion about the death of christ , which is , that he dyed for the salvation of all men , without exception of any , and consequently for the heathen , as well those who do enjoy the oral ministry of the gospel , as those that want it ; i herein hold nothing , but what was generally taught , and received , in the primitive churches of christ , for three hundred years together , and more , next after the times of the apostles ( which are by all our modern protestant divines , and by calvin in special manner , acknowledged for times , wherein christian religion raigned in her greatest purity , and soundness of doctrine ) as i am able to make substantial proof by express testamonies , and these not a few , from the best records and writers of these times ; as from , ignatius , hegesipp●● , ireneus , tertullian , cyprian , origen , athanasius , hilarius , eusebius , epiphanius , cyrillus hierosolymitanus , nazianzen , gregorius nyffenus , arnobius , lactantius , ambrosius , didymus , chrysostome , jerome , angustine , cyrillus alexandrinus , theodoret , ( with many others , ) as from several councels also . and that gods predestination of men , or purpose of election , depends upon his prescience or fore-sight of their faith , ( an opinion clearly confederate with that of universal redemption by christ ) is both by culvin , and beza themselves acknowledged to have been the judgment of many of the ancient fathers a : and is proved by many particular instances , and express testimonies , by gerard vossius in his historia pelagiana , lib. . thes. . concerning some few sayings , found in some of these authors , which seem to be of a contrary import , and are cited by some upon that account , the truth is , that they are but seemingly so : and they speak , not of the purchase , or procurement , but of the application and enjoyment , of the redemption by christ . therefore ( by the way ) they that inform or tell you , that christ's dying for all men , a sufficiency of power given to all men to believe , an election of species or kinds of men , not of persons , personally considered , &c. were held by pelagius , and condemned for errors by the orthodox fathers of those times , sin both against their own , and your souls , and shall render an account unto him who judgeth righteously , for dealing so unfaithfully and unchristianly , by his people and truth . they cannot prove , that pelagius ever held any one of the opinions mentioned ( unless haply after that recantation of his errors , whereunto the arguments and authority of the orthodox men in his times , brought him ) but that he held mr simsons opinion , which denyeth that christ dyed for all men , before , if not after the said retractation , may be evidently proved from augustines epist. . and from other testimonies , that the same opinion was held by his followers . but of all these particulars we intend a further account , when god shall give opportunity . besides , they that are competently acquainted with books , cannot lightly but know , that the reformed churches of the lutherans , with their ministers and teachers , who have as great a zeal of god , and for parts of knowledg and learning , yea , and for numbers also , are not much inferior to those who follow calvin , if not superior to them , in all , do ( in a manner ) generally hold , universal attonement by christ , together with the other opinions consequentially accompanying it : and doctor prideaux ( a man sufficiently engaged and declared against those ancient tenents of the christian church , which now unjustly suffer under the name of arminian ) in his printed lectures about these points , still brings upon the stage the lutherans and arminians , or remonstrants , hand in hand , as his joynt adversaries b . yea , these theological truths , that christ dyed for all men , that god vouchsafeth sufficient means of salvation unto a men , &c. are so extreamly necessary in the managing of the affairs of christ , and of the gospel , that as the roman orator said of justice , that it was so necessary for the preservation of civil communities , that theeves themselves , who are enemies to it , and live by injustice towards others , yet cannot want it amongst themselves ; so neither can those men , who profess enmity and opposition to the said opinions , hardly preach , hardly write , any thing to purpose , concerning the gospel , but they are necessitated to make use of them , and to assert them , either in expressness of terms and words , or in their clear and manifest principles . the writings of calvin himself , and so of bucer , musculus , vrsine , bullinger , with several other reformed divines , who are generally taken for men of a contrary judgment , yet do their writings ( i say ) frequently teach and avouch them , and that in as plain and ample terms , as any remonstrant can lightly express his sence about them . yea , these truths were too hard for the synod of dort it self , and now and then gain'd testimony from them , notwithstanding their solemn and sacred engagement to devote themselves and the best of their synodical endevors , to oppose and suppress them . what i have now onely affirmed , and this in the general , i shall , god willing , and sparing me in life and health for the service , in due time make to appear in particulars . in the mean time , if you , that are present , shall please narrowly to observe , and consider , the sermons which you ordinarily hear from your ministers , or minde their printed books upon some subjects , you shall ever and anon very apparently find such things asserted & delivered by them , which cannot stand , nor make any tolerable sence , much less divinity , but by the credit and countenance of the opinions i speak of , and which they notwithstanding so zealously pretend to abominate . i could weary you with instances in this kinde : but if you will afford me your christian patience in harkening ( at present ) unto two onely , i shall excuse you for the rest , till some better conveniency of time . the former of the two consists of several passages in a sermon lately preached before the lord major of your city ( and more lately printed ) by mr powel , an arch-stickler about these late disputes , and a zealous defender of that faith , which teacheth him to doubt whether christ dyed for him , or no , yea or for any one of all those , to whom he preacheth the gospel , and makes a tender of christ , at any time , yea or for any one of his nation . thus then mr powel , giving a large testimony to that truth , which himself decryeth for an error , pag. , & . of the said sermon . object . oh sir ! this stands in my way : though i 〈◊〉 christ hath finished the work of mens redemption , and of mens salvation , yet i do not know whether he hath finished it for me ? answ. harken my beloved ; what ground have you to make a plea against your selves ? he hath done it for a sinners , for the b ungodly , for c rebels , for the d world ; you are a sinner , you are one of the ungodly , one of the world , what plea can you make against this ? why object you such an objection against your selves ? if a pardon be sent from a prince to a company of prisoners , and the messenger saith unto them in general , here is a pardon for you , from my prince , for what you have done against him , come , accept of it , and you shall be free . now if one should ask , is the pardon for me ? and another question . is the pardon for me ? he would answer , it is for you that are prisoners , without exception , if you accept of it . a pardon is now sent unto you , that are sinful men and women , who are prisoners under the power of satan , and sin ; i say to you all , the lord jesus hath sent forth his pardon , which runs thus ; i the lord jesus , the son of god , and the saviour of sinners , out of my free grace and mercy , rich love and pity , am willing to pardon , and forgive , the sins and transgressions of you all ; and that i will do really , if you will come in , and lay hold of this pardon , and of my righteousness . will a sinner now say , doth jesus christ mean me , seeing he saith , whosoever comes unto me , i will in no wise cast him out ; and whosoever beleeves on me , he shall be pardoned , and saved ? this word whosoever comprehends all , and excludes none ; therefore object not against your selves , neither refuse your own salvation . object . oh! but though christs invites all , and makes promises to all that do come , yet he intends not that all should be made partakes thereof ? ans. my beloved , think you that christs intentions , and his expressions , are not one as real as another ? i tell you ( and you may beleeve it ) that he intends to pardon all , and to save all , as he expresseth it : he saith not the words onely , but his heart is so also . but mark it well ( and mistake me not ) i do not mean that he saith absolutely , i 'le pardon all , and save all , and no more ; oh , no : but he speaks conditionally , i 'le pardon you all , and save you all , if you beleeve on me , and accept of my pardon . certainly , arminius himself could not have arminianiz'd in the point of universal redemption by christ , more plainly , more pregnantly , then he that speaketh such things , as these . the latter instance hath for the authors of it a full comfort of . grave ministers , in or about the city , pag. . of a little treatise subscribed by them ( or by some of them , with the names , though without the consent , of the rest ) and published about two or three years since , under the title of , a testimony to the truth of jesus christ , &c. where bewailing the prevailing of errors and heresies ( so by them supposed ) they bemoan the case of those , whom yet other-while they judg the happiest men in the world , thus : thousands , and ten thousands of poor souls , which christ hath ransomed with his blood , shall hereby be betrayed , seduced , and endangered to be undone to all eternity . here we have the doctrine of universal redemption , fully , and with open face , asserted ; in as much , as they who are ransomed by the blood of christ , are said to be endangered to be undone to all eternity . he that is in danger of an evil , or misery , may very possibly fall into it . danger doth not onely imply a possibility , but even a probability , or likelyhood of suffering . so then , if thousands ransomed by the blood of christ , may be brought into danger of being undone for all eternity ; they very possibly may suffer such an undoing , and so perish for all eternity . if the ransomed by christ may perish for all eternity , then christ ransomed not the elect onely , of whose perishing there is not the least possibility , but the rebrobate also , or those who perish ; and consequently , all men . for any men to pretend or plead , that though there be an impossibility , in respect of the purpose and decree of god , that those , whom christ hath ransomed with his blood , should be undone to all eternity , yet they may be said to be in danger of being thus undone , in respect of such means , which have a direct tendency towards the undoing of souls in such a way , as the spreading of errors and heresies is , &c. such a pretence ( i say ) and plea , as this , is no salve at all for the sore . for there is not the least danger of suffering inconvenience by any such means , or causes , how likely or threatening soever , in themselves simply considered , to bring the inconvenience upon us , which we certainly know to be throughly mated and over-ballanced by means and causes of a contrary tendency and import . upon this account the scripture it self frequently makes such demands , as these : if god be for us , who can be against us ? who shall lay any thing to the charge of gods elect ? it is god that justifieth , &c. which kinde of arguing clearly implieth , that where , and in what case soever , we have god for our security , we are in no danger at all of suffering . and it is a maxim in the civil law ; that omnia invalida pro nihilo sunt habenda : i. e. all means that are insufficient , are to be reputed as none . souls that are secured by any decree of god , are in no more danger of being undone to all eternity , by errors and heresies , then by reading the roman or turkish histories , or by any other means , how irrelative soever to such an effect : in as much as errors and heresies , bear no more proportion in their destroying , or undoing properties , to the saving or preserving power of god , then the reading of the said histories , or any other means , how inconsiderable soever in their relation to the same effect . nor is the instance from act. . wherein those , whose lives god had promised to save , are said notwithstanding to have been in danger of drowning , of any better accommodation , to deliver the said passage from the orthodox errour of a cleer comport with the doctrine of universall redemption , then the former arguing . for evident it is , from those words , ver. . except these abide in the ship , ye cannot be saved , that that expression of the angel unto paul , vers. . and lo , god hath given thee all them that sail with thee , did not import any absolute purpose of god to save the lives of all those in the ship with him , but onely a conditionall ; it being a thing very frequent in the scripture , to expresse both such purposes , and such promises , of god , in an absolute and un-conditioned form of words , the execution and performance whereof , in respect of the things purposed , or promised , are never the less suspended upon conditions . instances hereof we shal ( god willing ) produce many upon a more material occasion . therefore the safety of the lives of those men , to whom paul saith , except these abide in the ship , ye cannot be saved , was not under any absolute decree or promise of god , as the souls of those that are ransomed by the blood of christ ( according to the constant assertion of the subscribers of the passage mentioned ) are ; god never subjecting any thing positively and absolutely decreed by him , unto any condition whatsoever performable by man . so that the subscribers are most palpable selfinconsistents ; nor doth the instance now argued , take the least pitie or compassion on them in covering that their shame . i have only this one word to add , touching the sence , wherein i hold a sufficiencie of means to beleeve , or to be saved , vouchsafed unto the heathen , who wanted the ministry of the gospel by men . by a sufficiencie of means to beleeve , i do not understand an immediate sufficiencie , but a mediate or remote sufficiencie . by an immediate sufficiencie of means to do a thing , i mean such a sufficiency , whereby a man is enabled to do the thing , without having any more means in order hereunto , then what he hath at present . thus a man that understands a language , and hath his sense of hearing perfect , hath an immediate sufficiencie of means to understand the mind of him that speaketh audibly unto him in that language . he stands in need of nothing more for such a purpose . by a mediate or remote sufficiencie of means to do a thing , i mean such a sufficiencie by which , though a man is not inabled without further provision of means , to do the thing , yet he is inabled to make such a farther provision in this kind , that having made it , he becomes immediately qualified , or able to do it . a man endued with reason , memory , and understanding , & having the opportunity of an able teacher , to instruct him in the knowledge of a strange language , and which at present he understandeth not , hath a remote sufficiencie of means to understand this language , and by a due improvement of these means , though remote , is very capable of obtaining such a sufficiencie of means hereunto , which is immediate . with this latter kind of sufficiencie , i affirm , the gentiles , who wanted the ministry of the gospell , had notwithstanding a sufficiencie of means to beleeve to the saving of the soul . the heathen were sufficiently qualified or furnished by god for the doing of those things , by which they might , and should , if they had done them , have been brought to an immediate capacitie of beleeving . by beleeving unto salvation , i mean such a faith in god , or such a dependance or reliance upon him , which is proper and sufficient to have led them into such ways , wherein god would have saved them , had they walked in them , according to that of the apostle ; if there be first a willing mind , it is accepted according to that a man hath , and not according to that he hath not a . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a ier. . . * towards the latter end of the said latter dispute , with much ado i forced an opportunity to speak somewhat , though very little , of that which is presented unto thee , in these papers . notes for div a e- a sic interposito praescientiae vtlo electionem , nomoa● obs●u●ant , sed origin●m aliund● habere singunt . neque viro haec vulgo recepta p●●●o solius vulgi est . habuit enim saeculis omnibus magnos authores . quod ingenue fatere , nequis causae nostrae magnopere obsuturum con●●●●● , st●orum nomina contra opponantur . calv. inst. l. . c. . s. . est etiam hic locus diligenter observandus , adversus 〈◊〉 , qui fidei , vel operum p●aevi●●●●em saciunt electionis ecusam . in quem 〈◊〉 sane turp●ssimum , origenes vet●●es plaeolque , tum gracos , tum latinos adegit ; donec tand●m dominus augusitinum per pelagia●os , ad 〈◊〉 agnoscendum & co●●igen●um errorem , excitaret . beza in . ad rom. b see his lecture de absolut● decreto , de gratia universali , de perseverantia sanctorum . a rom . . tim. . b rom . . c psal . . d john . . a cor. . . thirty queries, modestly propounded in order to a discovery of the truth, and mind of god, in that question, or case of conscience; whether the civil magistrate stands bound by way of duty to interpose his power or authority in matters of religion, or worship of god. by john goodvvin, minister of the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) thirty queries, modestly propounded in order to a discovery of the truth, and mind of god, in that question, or case of conscience; whether the civil magistrate stands bound by way of duty to interpose his power or authority in matters of religion, or worship of god. by john goodvvin, minister of the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . p. printed by j.m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd, london, : . annotation on thomason copy: " . march st". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng christianity -- early works to . church and state -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no thirty queries,: modestly propounded in order to a discovery of the truth, and mind of god, in that question, or case of conscience; whethe goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion thirty queries , modestly propounded in order to a discovery of the truth , and mind of god , in that question , or case of conscience ; whether the civil magistrate stands bound by way of duty to interpose his power or authority in matters of religion , or worship of god . by john goodvvin , minister of the gospel of jesus christ . the servants said unto him , wilt thou then that we go , and gather them up ? but he said , nay ; lest while ye gather up the tares , ye root up also the wheat with them . let both grow together until the harvest , &c. matth. . , , . man , who hath made me a judg , or divider over you ? luke . . let them alone : they be blind leaders of the blind : matth. . . dei lex nos docuit quid sequamur : humanae leges hoc docere non possunt . extorquere solent timidis commutationem : fidem inspirare non possunt . ambros. epist. . london , printed by j. m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd , . some queries concerning the duty of the civil magistrate , in , and about his publique interposure in matters of faith , the worship of god , and the promoting christian religion . i. whether any thing be incumbent by way of duty upon the civil magistrate , being christian , simply in respect of his office or place of magistracy , because of his being christian , which would not have been matter of duty to him , in cafe he had been pagan , and not christian ? or whether the office and work of the civil magistrate , as such , be not entire within it self , and consisting within its own appropriate bounds and limits ; so that nothing more accrues unto him , by way of duty , in his office , by his being christian ; nor is any thing , which is matter of duty unto him , as a magistrate , diminished or taken off from him , by his being , or turning , pagan ? and if so , whether doth god require of a pagan magistrate , that according to his present judgment and conscience , he should interpose and umpire with his authority in matters of christian belief , or in things appertaining to the worship of god ? ii. whether doth it appertain to the civil magistrate , as such , to provide by civil penalties , as by disgracing , fining , imprisonment , death , &c. for the observation of any other law in his territories , but of the law of nature only ; and of this so far only , as either it clearly dictateth or prescribeth the doing of such things , which have a rational connexion with the welfare , honor , and prosperity of that community of men , which is under his inspection and government ; or as it , with like clearness , restraineth the doing of such other things , which are in the eye of reason contrary hereunto ; considering that matters of a more spiritual nature , and such which relate either by way of sympathy , or opposition , only to an holy and humble walking with god , and not properly or directly to the civil interest , are of another cognisance , and committed by god to the care and faithfulness of ecclesiastical magistrates , in conjunction with the common councel of such christian churches , which are under their inspection , respectively ? iii. whether is the consent of the generality of the inhabitants of many nations , in one and the same principle , ( especially relating to the maintenance and upholding of their respective idolatries and superstitions , ) any competent or sufficient proof , that this principle is agreeable to the light , or law of nature , or safe for christians to practise and walk by ; considering , that the devil ( the god of this world ) laboreth in the very fire to corrupt the judgments , to blind the understandings , to pollute the consciences of men in matters appertaining to the worship of god , and hath so sadly prevailed over the world herein , as we generally know he hath done ? or whether is that principle of mahometanism , according unto which the men of this superstition judg it lawful to put a christian , or any other person , to death , who shall in any of their territories , call mahomet , accursed ( wherein probably many other idolatrous nations accord with them , in reference to their respective gods , so called ) a sufficient ground for christians to put a mahometan to death for calling christ , accursed , in their dominions ? or in case a christian state should thus practise , would it not be a snare of confirmation and obduration upon the mahometan in his way ? iv. whether our saviours intent in the parable of the tares , where the housholder forbiddeth his servants to gather up the tares , lest whilest they gathered up these , they plucked up the wheat also b , was not to prohibit such magistrates , who are christian and orthodox , the exercising of any degree of severity against blasphemers , seducers , heretiques , erroneous persons , &c. simply as such , for this reason , lest by such an example they occasion , or be accessary unto , the exercising of much greater severity by idolatrous and heretical magistrates upon christians , and godly persons , that are orthodox and sound in their judgment ? and whether is not this sence of the said passage , argued and asserted from the context it self , and by other arguments , against all reasonable contradiction , in a discourse ( not many years since published ) entituled , hagiomastix , &c. pag. , , , , , , , . as also in another discourse printed not long after , and with relation to it , entituled , a postscript , or appendix , p. , . v. whether is that right of power to interpose in matters of religion , as in punishing idolaters , seducers , false prophets , &c. which seems to have been given to the civil magistrate amongst the jews under the mosaical dispensation , any reasonable or competent ground on which to judg , that civil magistrates now , under the gospel , and amongst the gentiles , ought to assume ( yea , or lawfully may assume ) the like power ? or are there not many reasons , and these pregnant and undeniable , to prove the contrary , extant in the discourse mentioned , entituled , hagiomostix , pag. , , , , , &c. vi . whether the lord christ himself , did not strictly charge his disciples themselves , as well as others , not to accept of the title of rabbi , or masters , from men , in these words , but be not ye called , rabbi c ? and again , neither be ye called masters ? and whether they do not much more then accept of these titles , even compell men to give them unto them , who under civil mulcts and penalties shall exercise a magisterial jurisdiction over the judgements and consciences of men in matters appertaining to god , requiring of them either to beleeve such or such doctrines , or to submit to such or such practices , whilst their judgments and consciences remain unsatisfied and unconvinced of the truth of the one , and lawfulnesse of the other ? vii . whether may the civill magistrate , who derives and receives his power of magistracie from the people , lawfully exercise by vertue of his office , any other kind of power , or any further degree of power , then may lawfully be delegated unto him , and intrusted with him , by this people ; yea , or may he lawfully exercise any further degree of power then may reasonably be presumed that the people intended , or at the utmost ought to have intended , to confer upon him , or put into his hand ? if he may , from whom , or by whom , shall this surplussage of power be conceived to be derived unto him ? or upon what account can be justifie himself in the exercise of it ? if he may not , then by what right can he exercise any power in matters of faith , or over the judgements or consciences of men , in as much as the common people from whom he receiveth the intire body or sum of that power , which he administreth , have no right at all , nor colour of right , to delegate unto any man any authority or power to intermeddle or officiate in one kind or other in the affairs of jesus christ , and his kingdom , or to regulate ( authoritatively ) the judgements and consciences of men ( no , not their own ) in little or much , in things appertaining unto god ? viii . whether did not the lord christ rebuke his disciples ( and this somewhat roundly ) who desired a commission or authority from him to call for fire from heaven , as eliah formerly had done , to consume those , who refused to receive him ; did he not ( i say ) sharply reprove them in saying to them , ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of a ? [ meaning , that they did not consider the nature of the gospel , and what lenity ought to be shewed towards sinners , in order to the propagation thereof , above what the severity of the law admitted . ] and doth not the reason which he immediately subjoyneth , plainly shew this to have been his meaning ; for the son of man is not come to destroy mens lives , but to save them ; as if he had said , the end ( or , one great end ) of my coming into the world , was not that any mans life should be destroyed , or taken from him for my sake , or for any injury done unto me b ; but that i might mediate , perswade , and prevail with those , who otherwise are severe against offenders , as you are , to exercise all lenity and patience towards them , and to be tender over their lives , in order to the salvation of their souls ? ix . whether , as the ancient saying amongst the fathers was , sanguis martyrum , semen ecclesiae , i. e. the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the church , so it be not altogether as true , and this upon the same account in reason , and experimented accordingly in all ages , that sanguis haereticorum , semen haereseos , the blood of heretiques is the seed of heresie ? and whether is not that saying of tacitus , punitis ingeniis gliscit authoritas , punishment doth but make the authority and credit of any mans wit , or parts , to glow , shine , and prevail the more , altogether as true in re ecclesiasticâ sive christianâ , in matters of an ecclesiastical or christian , as of a politique or civil , import ? x. whether had not an vzzah an honest and upright intention to accommodate the ark , and to preserve it from harm by shaking , when he put forth his hand to keep it steady by holding it ? and whether was not god offended with him notwithstanding , making a breach upon him by slaying him in the place ? or was the ark of god in any real danger of suffering inconvenience by the shaking of the oxen , in case vzzah had not intermedled to prevent it ? xi . whether might paul in his days have been lawfully punished by the civil magistrate in ephesus , for that sedition , or tumult , which was occasioned in this city , by his preaching the gospel , and paricularly of this doctrine , that they be no gods which are made with hands ? it not , whether may such ministers or preachers , upon occasion of whose preaching tumults are frequently raised by rude and inconsiderate people , be punished by the christian magistrate upon this account ? or ought not rather the heads and principals in such tumults be enquired out , and punished ? xii . whether are not , formality , hypocrisie , simulation , dissimulation &c. in , and about the worship of god , sins of an high provocation in the sight of god ? if so , is it not simply unlawful , either for the civil magistrate , or any other person whatsoever , either to compel , or to invite or tempt , unto any of these sins ? or is not the punishing of such persons , for not frequenting the publique places of divine worship , who have no sense of a deity ; or others , for not coming , or joyning in , a state-worship , whose judgments and consciences inwardly abhor such a worship , as much as a compelling of men unto those sins ? or whether is a christian state any whit the more like to receive countenance or blessing from god , for such practices in it as these ? xiii . whether was it reasonable , or at all pleasing unto god , that pharaoh and his taskmasters should require of the israelites their full tale of work , and yet not give them straw ? or is there any whit more reason or equity , that magistrates should require subjection unto such laws from men , to whom they neither give ( nor indeed are able to give ) either wisdom or strength , whereby they should be enabled to yield such subjection ; at least if it be supposed that they have no sufficiency of strength and power in this kind given unto them by any other ; yea such a sufficiency , whereby they are enabled to yield this obedience or subjection under any temptation whatsoever to the contrary ? or is it a thing equitable or lawful to impose mulcts and penalties upon blind men , whose eyes were put out by their parents , because they see not ? xiv . whether can there any thing demonstratively , yea or probably , be concluded for the punishing of idolaters by the civil magistrate , from this passage in job ; if i beheld the sun when it shined , or the moon walking in brightness : and my heart hath been secretly enticed , or my mouth hath kissed my hand ; this also were an iniquity to be punished by the judg c , &c. considering , . that these words , to be punished by the , have nothing in the original corresponding with them , but are inserted by the translators upon their own account , as the different character , wherein they are printed , importeth . . that this latter clause , this also were an iniquity to be punished by the judg ( upon which the stress of the pretended in●erence lieth ) is thus rendred , out of the hebrew , by arias montanus : etiam hoc iniquitas judicata ; i. e. this also [ is , or hath been ] an adjudged iniquity ; meaning , that such a practice , or practices , which job had now mentioned and described , had been adjudged , [ viz. by men fearing god ] or rather was to be adjudged by all men , impiously sinful . . that though the english translation of the said clause be admitted , yet it is no ways necessary that by the judg therein mentioned , we should understand the civil magistrate , or any earthly judg , but rather the judg of all the earth , god himself . . ( and lastly ) that the sin of idolatry was not like to be punished by the judges of the earth in jobs days , being for the most part , if not generally , idolaters themselves ? xv . whether is then a sword put into the hand of the civil magistrate for the punishment of false teachers , by this passage in zechary ; and it shall come to pass that when any shall yet prophecy , then his father and mother that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live : for thou speakest lyes in the name of the lord : and his father and his mother that begat him , shal thrust him through , when he prophecyeth d ; considering that many worthy expositors , as well ancient , as modern , understand the words in a figurative sence ; yea and mr deodate , who lived where high presbytery had her throne , as likewise our english divines , though desirous to enthrone the same government also amongst them , yet in their joynt labor of annotations upon the bible , plead for the same interpretation ? this with much more , for the opening the mind of the holy ghost in the said passage of scripture , is to be seen in a small discourse written upon this account only , published some years since under the title of a postscript , or appendix , being an explication of zech. . . xvi . whether was it not the sence of christian antiquity even after constantine's days , that the civil magistrate , as such , had no right of umpirage in matters of christian religion ? and whether doth not this sufficiently appear by these and such like passages of ambrose in his thirteenth epistle , written to the then emperor , valentinian . when did you hear , most gracious emperor , that laicks [ i. e. persons in no ecclesiastical , or church office ] did ever censure , or sentence any bishop [ or pastor of a church ] in matters of faith [ or christian religion ? ] and again : your father ( through the goodness of god ) having lived to maturity of years , said , that it did not belong to him to give judgment between bishops , [ meaning , as before , in causâ fidei , in a case of faith , or christian belief . ] so also : the law of god hath taught us what we are to follow [ or believe , ] the laws of men cannot teach us this . they may extort from persons timorous a change [ of their former profession , ] but they cannot inspire [ them with an inward ] belief [ of what they outwardly profess e ? ] now i● the sence of antiquity was , that the supreme magistrate , though christian , was not to umpire between bishops , or pastors of churches , in matters of faith , evident it is that they were of the same mind touching his incompetency to judg between other persons also in like cases ; and consequently that matters of faith did not at all appertain to his cognizance , as a magistrate . for the reason why they conceived that it did not belong to the emperor to judg between bishops in cases of faith , could not be any consideration of the particular qualitie , rank or function of these persons , but onely the nature and qualitie of those things , being spiritual , about which they were at variance amongst them elves . this plainly appears by the expresse specification ( in the words cited ) of those cases wherein the emperour ( as they conceived ) had no right of decision between the persons mentioned , as viz. in matters of faith : which clearly supposeth , that in other cases viz. such which are of a civil nature and cognizance , they had the right and power we speak of ; however the . church of rome hath since apostatized from this truth ( with many others ) and imbraced a lie in stead of it . of like impott with the former is that passage of tertullian , where he saith , that it is palpably unreasonable , that men who are free , should be forced against their wills to sacrifice ; when as it is the willingnesse of the mind that is required in all divine services ; yea it may well be judged ridiculous that one man should be compelled by another to honour the gods , when as he stands bound at his peril to render these propitious unto him of his own accord , a &c. xvii . whether the lord christ hath not expressly charged all men without exception not to call any man , father , upon the earth , in these words , and call no man your father upon the earth , for one is your father which is in heaven c ? and whether do not they sin with an high hand against this charge , who shall receive , or consent unto , any doctrine , or submit unto any practice in , or about the worship of god , upon the account only of such or such a mans , or of such or such mens judgement or authority , and without any satisfactory ground within themselves , that such , whether doctrine , or practise , is agreeable to the word of god ? xviii . whether are any two , four , or six persons , suppose all of them godly , learned , and competently ( yea let it be , if you please , excellently ) quilified for the ministry of the go●●el , competent judges of the gifts , parts , and ministerial abilities of many thousands of their brethren ? or is it christian or meet to make or set up nebuchadnezzars in the church of christ , persons ( i mean ) who shall ecclesiastically slay whom they will , and whom they will keep alive ; set up whom they will , and whom they will , put down ? or in case it shall be judged expedient for the affairs of the gospel , that any such number of persons be invested with such a prodigiousness of power , who are competent judges of the meetnesse , or worthinesse of persons to be intrusted herewith ; especially where there are so many thousands , as this nation ( through the abundant blessing of god upon it ) affordeth , of very excellent abilities and endowments , amongst whom it is next to an impossibility for men to single out any two , four , or six persons , to whose worth and abilities all the rest shall by any law of god , or of equity and reason it self , stand bound to stoop or do homage ? or is it not a solecism in reason and conscience , that greater parts , learning , and worth , should be compelled to go on foot , whilst those which are meaner and more servile are made to ride on horses ? xix . whether in case any two , four , or six persons shall be advanced to that power and interest now mentioned , are not they like to be the men , who wear soft raiment , and live in kings houses ; i mean , whose applications have been to the greatnesse of this world , who by ignoble artifices and compliances have infinuated themselves into the familiarity and friendship of the anointed cherubs of the earth , and such , who being ascended on high , are able to give gifts unto men ? and whether are such persons as these , who cannot , charity her self being judg , but be judged great lovers of this present world , meet to be intrusted with that high umpitage specified , in the affairs of jesus christ ? xx . whether hath not god in his word directed , prescribed , and injoyned all methods , waies , and means any waies necessary ( at least so judged by him ) for the propagation of the gospel in the world ? if so , is not any additional course , or device of men in order hereunto ( i mean any such course , which is not reducible to some , or other , one , or more , of the means prescribed by him ) a constructive insinuation , either that men are wiser , or else more provident and careful , of saving the souls of men , then god himself ? or is the device of authorizing a small number of men to commission whom they please for the preaching of the gospel , and again to exclude whom they please from preaching the gospel , either any of those means , which god hath sanctified for the propagation of the gospel , or reducible to any of them ? xxi . whether since the days of christ , and of his apostles , can it be proved , or is it in it self at all probable , that ever any person , who preached the gospel , how faithful and serviceable soever to god and men in his way , was wholly free from error , or universally orthodox ? or can it reasonably be thought either pleasing to god , or profitable unto men , or advantagious to the gospel , that no man should be admitted to the preaching of it , but only those , who shall be adjudged by a few men , and these in some things ( without all doubt or question ) possibly in many things , weak and erroneous themselves , to be throughout the whole circumference of their faith unspotted with error , and in all their tenents and opinions unquestionably orthodox and sound ? or , in case some heterodox or unsound opinions may be tolerated in those , who shall be permitted to preach the gospel , what , or of what nature , or to what degree dangerous , may these opinions be ? or who , according to the word of god , shall be judged meet to umpire in this so great and difficult an affair ? xxii . whether is it meet or christian , for any man , or any number of men ( especially for any smaller or inconsiderable number of men ) to presume so far of their own gifts , abilities , wisdom , learning , knowledg , insight into the scriptures , &c. as to judg themselves worthy or meet to prescribe authoritatively , and to the exposing of those , whom they shall make delinquents , to civil penalties or inconveniences , unto the gifts , parts , learning and knowledg of other men , and these ( probably ) no ways inferior , possibly superior to themselves , in all such qualifications and endowments ? or is it christian or reasonable , either to tempt men into such a conceit , or to indulge men under such a conceit , of themselves , by delegating such a power , or authority unto them ? xxiii . whether is it not generally held , and maintained by our best protestant writers , divines , and others , against papists , that even general councels themselves may err in matters of faith ? and that there is no infallible judg on earth in controversies incident to christian religion ? xxiv . whether is not the manifestation of the spirit ( as the apostle termeth the manifest gifts of the spirit of god ) given to every man to profit withall ? if so , who can with a good conscience inhibit such from publishing or preaching the gospel , upon pretence of an unsoundness in some disputable opinions , or for want of that , which some men call ordination , whose abilities for that work are at least competent , and the exercise of them desired by many for their edification ? xxv . whether did those christians , who , upon occasion of a great persecution raised against the church at jerusalem , being scattered abroad , went every where preaching the word , pass any test of their abilities , or sufficiency for the work , before they put forth their hand unto it ? or is their fact in preaching the gospel upon such terms , and before any publique approbation , any ways censurable by the word of god ? xxvi . whether is it likely that persons called to the work of magistracy and civil government , upon which very thing , if conscientious , they do attend continually b , and so have little time to wade into the depths of controversal divinity , or to inform their judgments throughly on which side of the way the truth lieth in many difficult and abstruse questions , much agitated and debated by studious and learned men , should be able to distinguish ( as it were by the face ) who are the orthodox , and who the heterodox men ? and if this be not likely , whether can they reasonably claim any such interest or right of power , wherby to nominate and appoint men for the tryal of the meetness of all other men , for the work and service of the gospel ? xxvii . whether such persons , which shal be nominated and appointed by the chief rulers in a state , to adjudg the meetness , and unmeetness of men for preaching the gospel , are not like to be of a state religion ; i mean , to be every ways conformable in their judgments to such tenents and opinions in religion , which that state , or generality of people in that state , consent unto , hold , and maintain ? and if so , whether are they not like to be corrupt , rotten , or unsound in many of their religious principles , or opinions , considering , . that ( for the most part ) men in rule , authority , and power , are enemies to jesus christ c , and so not like to receive the gospel in the purity and truth of it . . that the generality or great bulk of people in any state ( who generally are of the same religion , both for principles and practice , with their supreme heads and governors , as these likewise are of the same religion with them in both ) were never known to have embraced , or admitted such evangelical doctrines , or truths , which are clearly and plainly destructive to the flesh , or whose faces are directly set against their corrupt , sensual , profane , and vain practices and ways ; nor is it ( indeed ) in it self a thing any ways likely ever thus to be ? xxviii . whether are not all men bound to pray , that the lord would send forth laborers into his harvest a ; and if their prayer in this behalf be ( as it may , and ought to be ) effectually fervent , whether shall it not prevail , and consequently will not the lord of the harvest himself send forth laborers hereinto ? if so , are not such persons , who shall be commissioned with power to elect and reprobate whom they please , amongst those whose hearts shall stir them up to labor in this harvest , more like to refuse or keep back those ( at least some of them ) whom the lord shall send forth ( i. e. shall stir up their hearts to go ) into this harvest , then any wayes to accommodate him in his way , or to promote the harvest-work it self ? xxix . whether is there any whit more ground for the civil magistrate to act out of his sphere , ( i mean , in matters which are not of a politick or civil , but of a spiritual or ecclesiastick consideration ) then there is for the church magistrate , or ecclesiastical elder to act out of his , and to interpose in matters of state , and civil policie ? and if the lord christ refused to arbitrate in a civil case between brethren , replying to him that desired it at his hand , man , who made me a judg , or divider over you ; a whether hath not the civil magistrate , as much , or more , reason to disclaim all interposure , as a magistrate , in spiritual affairs , and to say unto those , who shall desire or expect any thing from him in this kind , who made me an ecclesiastical judg , or spiritual decider over you ? xxx . whether , when the apostle , speaking of the civil magistrate , saith of him , that he is the minister of god , a revenger to execute wrath on him that doth evil , b are these words , him that doth evill , to be extended as well to him that is a spiritual delinquent or evil doer onely ( viz. ) that teacheth false doctrine , reproveth or disparageth him that teacheth true , worshippeth god in a false manner , or otherwise then he ought , &c. or to be confined to such evil doers onely , who sin against the clear light and law of nature , or the lawful politick constitutions of the state where he lives ? or hath it not by sondry undeniable grounds and reasons been proved , that the said words ought to be thus limited and understood , in the discourse formerly mentioned under the title of hagiomastix , pag. . , , , , &c. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- b mat . c mat. . . a luk. . , , b ultra naturam aliquid monet , nempe inimicos diligendos esse , adversarios veritatis tolerandos &c. — docet item regnum ▪ dei non esse regnum in quo gladiis et fustibus res agatur . marlorat . exposit . ecclesiastica in luk. . . acts . , , &c. c job . , , . d zech. . . e quando audisti , clementissime imperator , in causa fidei laicos de episcopo judicasse ? pater tuus ( deo favente ) maturicris aevi , dicebat , non est meum judicare inter episcopos . dei lex nos docuit quid sequamur ; humanae leges hoc docere non possunt . extorquere solent timidis commutationem ; fidem inspirare non p●ssunt . a facile iniquum videtur liberos homines invites urgeri ad sacrificandum ; ( nam & alias divinae rei faciundae libens animus indicitur ) certe ineptum existimaretur si quis ab ali● cogeretur ad honorem deorum , quos ultro sui causa placare deberet , ne prae manuesset jure libertatis dicere , n●l● mihi jovem propitium , tertul. apol , c. . c mat. . . acts . , b rom. . . c cor. . compared . a mat. . a luke . . b rom. . a fresh discovery of the high-presbyterian spirit. or the quenching of the second beacon fired. declaring i. the un-christian dealings of the authors of a pamphlet, entituled, a second beacon fired, &c. in presenting unto the lord protector and parlament, a falsified passage out of one of mr john goodwins books, as containing, either blasphemie, or error, or both. ii. the evil of their petition for subjecting the libertie of the press to the arbitrariness and will of a few men. iii. the christian equity, that satisfaction be given to the person so notoriously and publickly wronged. together with the responsatory epistle of the said beacon firers, to the said mr goodwin, fraught with further revilings, falsifications, scurrilous language, &c. insteed of a christian acknowledgment of their errour. upon which epistle some animadversions are made, / by john goodwin, a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son. also two letters written some years since, the one by the said john goodwin to mr. j. caryl; the other, by mr caryl in answer hereunto; both relating to the passage above hinted. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a fresh discovery of the high-presbyterian spirit. or the quenching of the second beacon fired. declaring i. the un-christian dealings of the authors of a pamphlet, entituled, a second beacon fired, &c. in presenting unto the lord protector and parlament, a falsified passage out of one of mr john goodwins books, as containing, either blasphemie, or error, or both. ii. the evil of their petition for subjecting the libertie of the press to the arbitrariness and will of a few men. iii. the christian equity, that satisfaction be given to the person so notoriously and publickly wronged. together with the responsatory epistle of the said beacon firers, to the said mr goodwin, fraught with further revilings, falsifications, scurrilous language, &c. insteed of a christian acknowledgment of their errour. upon which epistle some animadversions are made, / by john goodwin, a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son. also two letters written some years since, the one by the said john goodwin to mr. j. caryl; the other, by mr caryl in answer hereunto; both relating to the passage above hinted. goodwin, john, ?- . caryl, joseph, - . [ ], p. printed for the author, and are to be sold by h. cripps, and l.ll. in popes head alley., london, : . [i.e. ] one of a series in a controversy over the publication of seditious or blasphemous works. includes a letter from goodwin to the so-called "six booksellers" and their answer, with goodwin's responses to it interspersed. annotations on thomason copy: "jan: th";"jan :". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng second beacon fired -- early works to . prohibited books -- england -- early works to . press law -- great britain -- early works to . freedom of the press -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a fresh discovery of the high-presbyterian spirit. or the quenching of the second beacon fired.: declaring i. the un-christian dealings of goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a fresh discovery of the high-presbyterian spirit . or the quenching of the second beacon fired . declaring i. the un-christian dealings of the authors of a pamphlet , entituled , a second beacon fired , &c. in presenting unto the lord protector and parlament , a falsified passage out of one of mr john goodwins books , as containing , either blasphemie , or error , or both . ii. the evil of their petition for subjecting the libertie of the press to the arbitrariness and will of a few men . iii. the christian equity , that satisfaction be given to the person so notoriously and publickly wronged . together with the responsatory epistle of the said beacon firers , to the said mr goodwin , fraught with further revilings , falsifications , scurrilous language , &c. insteed of a christian acknowledgment of their errour . upon which epistle some animadversions are made , by john goodwin , a servant of god in the gospel of his dear son . when i would have healed israel , the iniquity of ephraim was discovered , and the wickedness of samaria , &c. hos. . . then were there two theeves crucified with him , the one on the right hand , the other on the left . mat. . . humanum est errare : jacere , belluinum : perseverare , diaboli●●m . also two letters written some years since , the one by the said john goodwin to mr. j. caryl ; the other , by mr caryl in answer hereunto ; both relating to the passage above hinted . london , printed for the author , and are to be sold by h. cripps , and l. ll. in popes head alley . . to the reader . good reader , i shal not impose upon either thy time , or thy patience , at present : the brief of the story is this . six london book-sellers , whose names thou wilt finde mentioned in the superscription of the next ensuing letter , and subscribed to the second , all ( as it should seem ) devout homagers to the presbyterian fraternity of sion colledg , not long after the first sitting of the present parliament , presented to the lord protector , and the parliament , a small pamphlet , intituled , a second beacon fired . in this pamphlet amongst errors and blasphemies ( by them so called , and some of them , in my judgment , too truly such ) they cite some words of mine , which , and as , they please , out of a passage of my book of redemption , leaving out others , which give the sence and import of the passage : these words , thus sycophantly and traducingly severed from their fellows in the same sentence , they present to the lord protector and parliament , as containing in them blasphemie and error . it was some while after the presentment of the said pamphlet , before i came to the sight , or knowledg of it . at last hearing that somewhat published by me was listed in their muster-role of heresies and errors , to serve the design of their petition for the restraint of the press , as also of their no-christian intendments against me otherwise , i purchased a sight of the pamphlet ; and comparing the transcription , as they had mangled and misfigured it , with my words related unto by themselves , i found my self most notoriously wronged and abused . hereupon i wrote and sent a letter to the said gentlemen book-sellers , desiring christian and equitable reparations ( expressed in the said letter ) of my name and repute , which they had not a little damnisied by that egregious falsification of my words , sence , and meaning . these gentlemen , in stead of giving me that satisfaction , which christianity and conscience required at their hands , return me such an answer in writing to my letter , as if they had taken unto themselves seven spirits worse then that , by which they or whosoever for them , indited the said pamphlet , & the falsifications thereof , ading drunkenness to thirst , multiplying reproaches , slanders , & revilings ( as the ten tribes somtimes did their idolatrous altars ) like the furrows in the field : and are so far from acknowledging any wrong done unto me by mis-using me , and my words , that they justifie themselvs in that high misdemeanour , and seem to think that they do god service in straining the peg of that iniquity yet higher . notwithstanding i may ( i suppose ) cleerly and fully acquit the said gentlemen book-sellers from the guilt and crime of inditeing , or drawing up , the said responsatorie writing : this i judg to be the froath and foam of another spirit , which some yeers since leapt upon me , and attempted to rend and tear me : sic oculos , sic ille manus , sic ora ferebat : such eyes , such hands , such mouth that spirit had . only the said gentlemen have involved themselves in the guilt of the un-christian contents of the said writing , by consent , and subscription , and possibly by solicitation also ; although i rather incline to think , that the penman was chosen and requested to the work , not by men that use to sell , but by some who are more frequently wont to buy , books . that motto in their title page , for sions sake we cannot hold our peace , whose device so ever it was , seems , by the contents of the book , not to be meant of sion , in the common acceptation of the word , viz. as it signifies the church of god , but rather of sion colledg in london . for certain it is that the book or pamphlet is not calculated with any relation at all , except it be that of opposition , to the interest of the church of god ; but most exactly for the interest of sion colledg and her children . doubtless whosoever was the epistler , or enditer of the said answer to my letter , might have stood in the high priests hall without danger : his speech would never have bewrayed him to have been of galilee . i have , in the days of my pilgrimage , both seen , and heard of many writings fraught with much more then enough of that which is vile , and sinfully extravagant in men : but to this day never did mine eye see , nor mine ear hear of , nor will it easily enter into my heart to beleeve , that ever there was any piece ( for the inches of it ) fuller of that which is un-christian , yea , unman-like , as of most notorious and broad-fac'd untruths ( of such obvious and easie an eviction ) such bold slanders , such childish cavils , wrestings , and perverting of words , such scurrilous and unseemly language , such ridiculous quarrelings and exceptings against manifest truths , such revengeful suggestions and insinuations ( with many other unworthinesses ) then that letter of theirs , here presented unto the world . it may be justly said unto them , many writers have done foolishly , but you surpass them all . their letter is for a writing , what he was for a man , whose character was , monstrum nulla virtute redemptum a vitiis . there is nothing savorie or christian in it , to balance in the least the high demerit of it . therefore as paul , having received reproachfull measure from men , and those faling in their duty , who ought to have vindicated him , complaines that he was compelled himself to appear in his own vindication , which otherwise he had rather should have been the work of others ; in like manner am i compelled once again to take hold of shield and buckler in mine own defence , and either to make , or to keep , those things concerning my self , streight in the minds and thoughts of men , ( if it may be ) which men of most untrue suggestions have endeavoured to pervert , and make crooked . for thine accommodation about the animadversions made upon the book-sellers epistle , and for the ready application of them in their respective branches , to the particular passages in this letter , unto which they ( respectively ) relate , i have distinguished their letter into twenty two sections ; and again distinguished these by letters of the alphabet , where any animadversion is particularly made upon them , which readily lead thee to their appropriate passages in the subjoyned animadversions , characterized by the same letter also . and because the gentlemen book-sellers , or rather , the son of their right hand ( their amanuensis ) challenge me to print mr caryls letter about the passage of their falsification , sent unto me some years since , and threaten me that they may do it for me , if i will not , glorying over this letter , as if the publishing of it would confound me , and that the reasons therein against the said passage in my book , were so satisfactory , that they did effectually silence me ; i have therefore published both this letter of his to me , and mine also to him , which occasioned it . the truth is , i had printed both these letters presently upon their writing and sending , but only for a clause in mr caryls letter ( towards the close of it ) wherein he insinuates his unwillingness to have passages of that nature made publique . so that it was cleerly , and as in the presence of god , only out of my respects to mr caryl , that i then forbare the printing of them , and should have done so still , had not these importune sons of high presbitery thus reproachfully and triumphingly clamour'd upon me to do it . but as for any reasons against the said passage , either satisfactory , or unsatisfastory , that letter mentioneth none , unless it be the asserting of the authors own judgement and some other mens , in the point , in opposition unto mine , notwithstanding any thing offered by me in my book . if either the book-sellers , or book-buyers , judg this a reason so satisfactory , as effectually to silence me for ever , i cannot but juag them to be of the race and lineage of those , who are owereasie of satisfaction for their own carnal advantage besides , of such a reason as this , i was not , nor lightly could be ignorant , before mr caryls letter came to me . concerning this letter ; with that of the book-sellers , i have delivered the autographons themselves unto the printer , that there may be no mistake in the printing of these , unless ( haply ) typographical , which notwithstanding , i shall endcavour to prevent . for my own two letters , not having by me the copies themselves , which were sent , but being necessitated to make use of the rough draughts , possibly there may be some variation in words , although my desire standeth , as neer as may be , to varie in nothing , especially without giving notice of the variation , where i have any knowledg of it . this i speak because of the capritious weakness of my antagonists , who on the one hand , are wont to make a long arme to reach pretexts and occasions of cavilling , and on the other , to complain of the grashopper as a burthen . such personal contests as these have always been the regret of my genius : and if i thought not that my reputation were , or may be of more concernment unto others , then i judge it to be to my self , i should not move , heart , hand , or foot , to pursue the rescue ; but abandon it to the lust and folly of those , who have attempted to make a prey and spoil of it : but i remember a good saying of austine ; for our selves ( brethren ) our conscience sufficeth , but for you , our name also had need be excellent a : and jerom's advice was , that no man should sit still under a suspition , or charge , of heresie b . besides , this consideration , that by how much a further and fuller discovery is made of the folly , or madness , ( as the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} was englished in our former translation , tim. . . ) of those , who resist the truth , they have so much the less time remaining to endanger the world by such a practise ; this consideration ( i say ) did balance the averseness of my disposition to the work . now as jannes and jambres ( saith the apostle ) withstood moses , so do these also resist the truth : men of corrupt minds , in-judicious conconcerning the faith . but they shall proceed no further ; for their folly shall be manifest unto all men , as theirs also was c . it is always folly , if not madness , which ingageth men in a resistance of the truth ; yea it is one of these which causeth men to persist in this practise . by means hereof , it cannot but in time utter and discover it self . for that which is active , especially in matters and cases of publique and weighty consideration , must needs ere long bewray it's genius , nature , and property , at least unto those , who are intelligent and apprehensive ; who being lovers of truth , and of the peace and comforts of men , cannot forbear the communication of their vision ; and in case that which they see in this kind , be of any evil or dangerous import unto men , they cannot but give the most publique notice of it accordingly unto the world . and when the generallity of persons shall he brought to understand and see the folly or madness of men in any course or way of acting , wherein they have been deceived and injured by them , they will for the future , abhor their practises , and buy their merchandise no more . i trust this small piece may do some service unto the world in promoting and perfecting the discovery of the folly of those men , who resist that great evangelical truth ( with its complices ) which asserteth , that god , with his antecedent and primary intentions , intended the salvation of the whole world by jesus christ . or however god , and the consciences of other men , shall agree about the event and succese of it , it here prefents ts service unto thee ( good reader ) together with the christian respects , and further service , of thy cordially devoted friend and servant in christ , john goodwin from my study . decem. . . mr john goodwins letter , endorsed . to my christian friends , mr thomas underhill , mr samuel gellibrand , mr iohn rothwel , mr luke fawn , mr ioshua kirton , mr nathaniel webb ; or any one , or more , of them , these present . gentlemen ; a few dayes since , an ill-conditioned pamphlet , entituled , a second beacon fired , presented to the lord protector and parliament , fell into my hands . i find all your names sub-printed to it ; but know not whether your hearts be to it , and were consenting to the publishing and presentment of it ; or whether some son of belial , one , or more , taking the advantage ( it may be ) of some of your known weaknesses , and desirous to disport themselves ( and possibly others also ) with your disparagement , did not , without your privity or consent , borrow your names to father so hard-favoured a birth of their own . the reasons why i cannot but a little ( at least ) demur , whether the piece be yours , or no ▪ are . . because i find in it most un-christian falsification , even that which some would call forgerie . . because i find in it likewise , such counsels offered petition-wise to the lord protector and parliament , under a pretext of godliness , and zeal for sion , which are obstructive , if not destructive , to the prosperity and sovereign interest of both . . and lastly , there is a sent or smell of such a spirit , in the said pamphlet , which teacheth men to suppose that gain is godliness . i confess , that notwithstanding any personal knowledg i have of you , or any of you , the pamphlet may be yours under all the three characters of unworthiness now specified : for i know none of you beyond the face , and only one of you , so far ; yet report hath so far befriended some of you in my thoughts , that i am hardly able to conclude you all under the guilt of the shameful and un ▪ christian enormities , which dare look the parliament and the world in the face , out of those papers . for ( to touch the first in one instance only , not having opportunity of making proof of more at the present . ) page . ( of the said pamphlet ) this absurd passage is charged upon me in my book of redemption , pag. ▪ . that in case any assureance of the unchaugeableness of gods love , were to be found in , or regularly deduced from , the scriptures , it were a just ground to any intelligent man to question their authority , and whether they were from god , or no . surely they who lay this saying to my charge , may with as much honesty and conscience , yea , and with as much appearance of truth , impeach david as guilty of saying , there is no god , psal. . . or make the apostle paul , to say , rom. . . if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord jesus , thou shalt be saved . for though these words are to be found in these sacred ▪ authors ( respectively ) yet the sence they make , otherwise then in consort of the other words relating in their respective periods unto them , was as far from their authors meaning ▪ as the heavens are from the earth . david was far enough from affirming , that there is no god : and paul , from saying , that if a man shall with his mouth confess the lord jesus , he shall be saved ; yet the words , of which both sayings consist , are extant in their writings . in like manner the beacon-firers , whoever they be , you , or others ( for i shall not charge you with the folly , but upon better evidence ) commit the foul sin of forgery , in making me say , in their ▪ pretended transcription out of my book , that in case any assureance of the unchangeableness of gods ▪ love were to be found , or could regularly be deduced from the seriptures , &c. whereas ( besides several other words in the sentence ) they leave out the characteristical word , such , [ any such assureance of the unchangeableness &c. ] the word , that is the heart , spirit and soul of the sentence , that gives a most rational and orthodox taste and relish to the whole period , and without which , the passage contains no more my sense or judgment , then theirs who forged the transcription . for my sence and opinion , which i argue and assert in several places ( upon occasion ) in my said book of redemption ( as viz. p. . . and again , p. . &c. ) cleerly and expresly is , that the love of god , as all his counsels and decrees , is unchangeable ; and consequently , that an assureance of this unchangeableness is regularly enough deduceible from the scriptures , and this without any prejudice to their divine authority ; yea rather to the establishment and confirmation hereof . so far am i , either from thinking , or saying , that if in case any assureance of the unchangeableness of gods love , were to be found in , or could regularly be deduced from the scriptures , it were a just ground to any intelligent man to question their authority , &c. therefore they who have accused me , especially unto a parliament , of such a saying , have the greater sin . that kind of unchangeableness of gods love , the assureance of which , i affirm , were it to be found in , or regularly to be deduced from , the scriptures , would be a just ground to an intelligent and considering man to question their authority ; &c. i had imediately before described , and besides , sufficiently explained in the reason of the said assertion , which i imediately subjoyn in these words . forthat a god , infinitely righteous and holy , should irreversibly assure the immortal and undefiled inheritance of his grace and savour unto any creature whatsoever , so that though this craeture should prove never so abominable in his sight , never so outragiously and desperately wicked and prophance , he should not be at liberty to withhold this inheritance from him , is a saying ( doubtless ) too hard for any man , who rightly understands and considers the nature of god , to bear . from these words it plainly enough appears , that it is not any assureance of the unchangeableness of gods love , as the beacon-firers most un-christianly and unconscionably suggest to the parliament , and ( indeed ) to the world , which i conceive to be a just ground to any intelligent and considering man to question the authority of the scriptures , in case it could either be found in , or drawn from them ; but such an assureance hereof , by vertue of which , men turning aside from christ , after satan , from ways of righteousness and of truth , to walk in ways of all manner of loosness and profaneness , may notwithstanding with a secure confidence , promise salvation unto themselves , and that god will never take away his love from them . and whether such an assureance of the unchangeableness of gods love , as this , were the scriptures any ways confederate with it , ( which far be it from every christian soul to imagine ) would not be derogatory or prejudicial in the highest to their authority , let the beacon-firers themselves , or any other persons , who make any conscience of putting a difference between god and the devil , judg and determine . if i were a person prone to jealousie , or desired to make any further breach upon mens reputations , then only for the necessary reparations of the truth injured by them , i could suggest this query to the thoughts of men ; whether it be not likely , that they , who thus palpably and notoriously have falsified the writings of one , have not committed the same folly in the rest of their transcriptions from the writings of others ? considering that it is a saying in the civil law : he that hath injured one , hath threatened many . and our saviour himself ; he that is faithful in that which is least , is faithful in much : and he that is unjust in the least , is unjust also in much , luke . . but no more of this at present . . that pernicious counsel against the liberty of printing and for the subjecting of all the learning , gifts , parts and abilities of all the worthy men in the nation , unto the humor and conceit of a few men , who for their comporting with the religion of the times , shall be sirnamed , orthodox , which the said beacon-firers do ( in effect ) very passionately suggest and commend unto the parliament , ( p. . ) and which , were it put in execution according to the terms of the suggestion , would certainly fire both citie , and countrie , as well as beacons , should ( me think ) argue the second beacon not to be of your firing . for you are reputed friends unto jesus christ ; and to the truth : and consequently who can imagine that you should give any such advice , especially unto a parliament , which is of an obstructive , at least of a threatening import , to the advancement , and further discovery of jesus christ unto the world , yea and which , were it pursued by those , to whom it ▪ is given , cannot ( in greatest likelyhood ) but sort to an issue or consequence , quite contrary to that , whereunto it pretends ; i mean , to a further propagating and spreading of errors and unsound doctrines and opinions in the land ; and for the justification whereof , there is neither footing nor foundation in the scriptures . for , . where doth the lord christ , authorize any person , or persons , of what capacity soever , to authorize or appoint any number of men , whom they shall please to call orthodox ( whether they be such , or no ) yea or those , which are such indeed , to say unto the holy ghost ; nothing which thou revealest unto other men , be it never so much for the glorifying of the name of god , of never such worthy and sacred concernment unto the world , shall publickly go forth into the world , unlesse thou wilt reveal the same unto us also , and make us partakers of the vision , as well as others ? or doth not the beacon-firers , very passionately and importunely tempt men in authority to assume unto themselves such an exorbitant and prodigious power , as this ; i mean , to authorize a certain number of men , who shall , in their sence , be orthodox ; though according to the sence of as understanding men , and ( probably according ) to the truth it self , be as erroneous in their judgement as other men , to word it is ( in effect ) at such a rate with the holy ghost ? . what ground is there in the word of god for the investing of edmund ( for example ) arthur , and william , with a nebuchadnezzarean power over the press , to stifle or slay what books they please , and what they please , to keep alive ; more then there is for the investing of joshuah , peter , and tobiah , with the same ? or if the three latter be altogether as religious , as judicious , as learned , as the three former , by what rule of equity , reason , or conscience , should they be more obnoxious in their writings , and publication of them , to the censure and disapprobation of these , then these in their writings unto them ? or by what rule delivered in the word of god shall any man judge the three former , either more religious , learned , or judicious , and so more meet for the intrustment under consideration , then the latter ? . whether hath the holy ghost anywhere characterized , or declared what qualifications are requisite and meet , to be found in such persons , who shall bee set over the press and be intrusted with such a soveraignty of power , as by which they shall be inabled to fill the world with books and writings , for the advancement of their own faction , or for the propogation of their own erroneous , ( and perhaps dangerous ) conceits , and on the other hand , to suppresse whatsoever shall bee prepared by men of solid and sound judgements for the detection , and eviction of their folly in such cases ? . is not the granting of such a power over the presse , as the beacon firers in the great heat of their devotion and zeal , sollicite the parliament to vest in a certain number of men , ill consistent with the interest and benefit of a free common-wealth , and of like nature and consideration with the granting of monopolies ? or may not the commonwealth deeply suffer by the exercise of such a power , in being thereby deprived of the use and benefit of the gifts , parts , experiments , diligence and labours of many her worthy members ? . who are in a regular capacity of power , to nominate and appoint such persons , to whom the said power over the press ought to be committed ? if it be said , the civil magistrate . . i would gladly know of the beacen-firers , who hath delegated such a power or authority unto him , or in what part of the word of god , any such power is asserted unto him . . whether the said power over the press bee an ecclesiastick , or civil power ? if it be the latter , how are men set apart for the ministery of the word of god , and prayer , capable of the investiture ? if it be the former , how is the civil magistrate in a capacity of conferring it , or investing any man with it ? . if the supream magistrate in a state or common-wealth , be allowed a power to invest what persons he pleaseth with such a power over the press , as the beacon-firers demand , is it not to be expected that onely such persons shall be deputed to this trust by him , which are of his own sence and judgement in matters of religion , and consequently who shall comply with a state religion ? and are men of this character competent arbitrators , between persons of their own party and perswasion , and those who are contrary minded to them , in their contests about truth and errour ? and in case the magistrate himself shall be unsound in the faith ( as men of this order have no priviledge of exemption from errour , more then other men ; nay , they are under more and greater temptations , then other men , to be carried aside in their judgements from the truth ) if then ( i say ) the magistrate be of an unsound judgement in things appertaining unto god , shall not our press-masters be unsound also ; and consequently , shall we not have errour countenanced and set at liberty , and truth imprisoned , and condemned to silence and obscurity ? . shall not such men who shall undertake the administration of such a power , by which the press shall bee suffered to speak when they please , and be compelled to keep silence when they please likewise , run an extream hazard of fighting against god ? or to reject and repel the holy ghost , when he shall at any time be desirous to come forth by the way of the press , into the world with any new discovery of truth , is this any thing lesse ( being interpreted ) then a fighting against god ? or do they , who know but in part , universally or infallibly know , when the spirit of truth , and when the spirit of errour is desirous to come abroad into the world ? . doth not a power of gagging the press , when men please , carry a dangerous antipathy in it to that evangelical charge , or precept , imposed upon all men , whereby they are commanded by god to try all things , and particularly to try the spirits , whether they be of god or no ? for if many things , or many spirits of doctrines be not suffered to come to the knowledge of men , how shall they be able to try them ? do not then the beacon-firers , by their counsel given to the lord protector and parliament , for the restraining of the presse , render that great commandement of god for the trial of all things , of none effect ? . and lastly , that great evill of the infectious spreading of errours and heresies in the nation , the prevention whereof the said advice given touching the press , pretendeth unto , is not likely to be at all prevented , but promoted rather , by it , should it he followed and put in execution . for , . ( as the saying is ) quod licet ingratum est , quod non licet , acrius urit . what laws permit to do , to do men do not much desire : but what restrained is , to do they burn as hot as fire . and the apostle paul himself saith ; that sin taking occasion by the commandement , wrought in him all manner of concupiscence . for without the law , sin is dead . rom , . . and little question there is , but that in case the liberty of the press shall bee by any law restreined , they who otherwise would be but indifferent whether they published in print their weak , it may be their erroneous and wicked conceptions , or no , will be hereby admonished and provoked to do it , though more secretly . stollen waters are sweet . . in case they shall by any such law of restraint , be kept from venting their fond and uncouth notions by the press , or shall by the masters of the press bee prohibited the printing of them , they will by way of indignation and revenge be so much the more zealously diligent and intent to propagate them underhand , and privately ; and probably gain many more disciples this way , then by the other . the prophane and vain babling of hymeneus and philetus fretted like a canker , although they wanted the opportunity of a press for their propagation . . when the generality of people shal understand that the publishing of such or such notions , or tenents , hath been restrained and obstructed by those , who shall exercise an arbitrary dominion over the presse , it will ( in reason ) both occasion them to think the better of them , or at least to think that there is somewhat more then ordinary in them , in one kind , or other ; and consequently , they will be awakened and stirred in their spirits to inquire more narrowly after them , and to acquaint themselves with them . so that in this respect also there is little like to be gained towards the suppression of errors and heresies , by subjecting the presse unto a test . . the setting of watchmen with authority at the door of the presse to keep errors and heresies out of the world , is as weak a project and design , as it would be to set a company of armed men about an house to keep darknesse out of it in the night season . for as the natural darknesse cannot be prevented , or dispelled , but by the presence of light , nor needeth there to be any thing , either for the preventing or dispelling it , but light onely : so neither is it possible either to prevent , or to remove , errors and heresies , which are spiritual darknesse , but onely by shining spiritual light in the hea●ts and understandings of men ; neither needeth there any thing but this to effect either . . errors and heresies , the lesse they play in sight , are like to defend themselves upon terms of more advantage , and to lengthen out the daies of their continuance amongst men for the longer time . for by this means they are kept from the clear and distinct knowledge of judicious and learned men , who otherwise , being both able and willing to perform so worthy a service both unto god and men , would publickly detect and confute them . and i verily beleeve that the printing of j. biddles most enormous and hideous notions , and conceits about the nature of god , and some other very weighty points in religion , will bring the judgement of bloody and deceitfull men upon them , which ( according to davids award ) is , not to live cut half their daies . psal , . , for as the great apostles reasoneth concerning such teachers , whom he calleth men of corrupt minds {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} injudicieus , or without judgement , about matters of faith , but ( saith he ) they shal proceed no further for their madnesse shall be manifest unto all men ; as theirs also was ; so is it very reasonable to conceive and judge , that the more generally and publickly any vile , wicked , or blasphemous conceit shall discover and manifest it self unto men , it is so much the nearer to become the loathing and abhorring of all men . nor do the beacon-firers argue like worthy men , when from the numbers of unworthy books printed , they infer the number of buyers , and from hence conclude the number of persons , either infected with , or inclined to , the errors contained and pleaded for , in those books . for who knoweth not that many men , especially ministers , schollars , and learned men , buy many books , not with any intent to say as they say , or to side in opinion with their authors , but partly to inform themselves concerning the spirits that come abroad into the world , partly to rebuke and confute them upon occasion , in case they see cause for it ? . ( and lastly for this ) the gospel , and the truth never flourished , prospered , & triumphed at an higher rate in the world , then when errors and heresies were no otherwise restreined , punished , or opposed , then by those spiritual means , which god himself hath sanctified and prescribed in this behalf , as viz. by the effectual preaching of the gospel , the stopping of the mouths of the gain-sayers of truth by arguments of conviction , and solid demonstration ; by casting out of their respective churches , and delivering up unto sathan , all such , who after admonition and conviction , shall persist in their errors , and in the teaching and spreading of them . but certainly amongst all the means , offices , and officers , which the lord christ hath directed or established , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministery , for the edifying of the body of christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith , and acknowledgement of the son of god , unto a perfect man , &c. neither restraint of printing , nor licensers of the presse , are to be found ; these are apocryphal , both names and things . this for the second particular . for the third and last , he , or they ( whether it be some other , others , or your selves ) who have represented you as the firers of the second beacon , and consequently , the authors of the advice given ( in the pamphlet mentioned ) touching the monopolizing of the presse , do insinuate you as men , who can be too well content that others of the same craft with you , should suffer in their trade , so you may advance in yours . for it is not much to be doubted , but that your desire is , that such men as you count orthodox , should be recommended by you , or by your motion & interest , to the high preferment over the presse , who by the opportunity of their standing on this ground , shall be in a good capacity to gratifie their friends and benefactors in their way . but in this i shall spare you . for a cloze , i shall make this reasonable and christian request unto you , that in case you be fellow-fufferers with me , and have not been privy or consenting to the framing or publishing of that unworthy pamphlet , intituled , a second beacon fired , &c. you will publickly , and in print , wash your hands from the guilt hereof , and declare unto the world , that you had neither right hand nor left , either in the inditing , or venting , of that pamphlet . or if your consciences be not at liberty to accommodate you in this ( for by somewhat i have heard since i began this epistle to you , i am little lesse then all thoughts made that you are the true , and not the personated , beacon-firers your selves ) that then you will with your own hands , quench your beacon on fire ; first , by acknowledging publickly and in print , . that you have falsly accused me , either of blasphemy or of errour , and this unto his highnesse the lord protector , the parliament , the nation , and ( indeed ) to the whole world . . that you have given unadvised councel ( to speak no worse of it ) for the oppressing the christian and just liberties of the commonwealth of england , about printing , by subjecting the whole nation [ i mean as many in it , as shall at any time intend , or be desirous , to publish any thing presse ▪ wise ] unto the wills and pleasures of a few particular men . . by delivering or presenting copies of what you shall print , or cause to be printed , upon both these accounts , to all the same persons , as well parliament men , as others , or to as many of them as are yet living in , or near , the city , to whom you not long since delivered copies of that unhappy pamphlet , stiled a second beacon-fired . if you shall with your own hands thus quench the beacon , which you have rashly and unchristianly fired , i shall rest satisfied . otherwise you will compell me to do it after my weak manner for you , by publishing the contents of these papers , which i have sent unto you , i shall wait for your christian answer till the latter end of the next week . the god of all grace give you wisdome and a sound understanding in the gospel of his dear son , that you may be capable of knowing things that differ , to your own comfort and peace . your very loving friend in the faith of jesus , john goodwin . from my study in swan alley in colemanstreet london , nov. . . the book-sellers letter to mr j. goodwin endorsed , to the learned mr john goodwin at his house in swan-alley . together with the said mr j. goodwin's animadversions thereon , according to the respective sections of it . book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. i. sir , ovr weaknesse shall be as readily acknowledged by us , as it is scornfully derided by you ; ( a ) but god who doth righteously conceal himself from lofty and crafty sophisters , ( b ) doth graciously reveal himself to weaklings and babes ( c ) we own that book which you say was written by a son of belial , ( d ) because thore was one little word svch ( e ) mitted in transcribing a passage out of your redempt . redeemed . we cannot but admire this righteous providence ( f ) for you accuse us of falsification , as joseph's mistresse accused him of wantonnesse , whereof he was innocent , and she was guilty . ( g ) mr. goodwins animadversion , i. ( a ) your weaknesse may be as readily acknowledged by you , as it is scornfully derided by me , and yet never be acknowledged by you at all , ( yea as far as by the contents of your letter can be reasonably judged , you are too far hardned in a conceit of your strength , ever to acknowledge your weakness . ) for your charge here is but an unchristian calumniating of my christian intentions towards you , in remembring you privately of your weaknesses : nor do my words import any scornfull deriding , either of them , or of your persons for them . your prophet and amanuensis ( the compiler of your letter ) hath drawn you into a sinfull snare in the very beginning , ( as he hath done unto twenty more in the sequel ) by occasioning you to subscribe such an insinuation of untruth . ( b ) the word , sophister , in the canting dialect of high presbytery , commonly signifies , a person who levies such arguments , whether from the scriptures , or otherwise , against any of their tenents , which their prophets cannot tell how to answer . in this sence of the word , the libertines , cyrenians , alexandrians , &c. might have termed stephen , a sophister , because they were not able to resist the wisdome and spirit by which he spake , act. . . . in like manner the jews at damascus , might have called paul a sophister ▪ because he confounded them , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} argumentatively proving , or inforcing by argument , that this ( jesus ) is very christ , act. . . the prophets of the said school of high presbytery have attempted to impose a like exotique sence upon several other words of frequent use amongst us . they make the word , orthodox , to signifie , a man of their judgement , whether rotten , or sound : the word heteredox , or erroneous , a person differing in judgement from them , though in the truth : the word blasphemy ; that which contradicts any of their notions or conceits about the nature , or attributes of god : this complex , the reformed religion , with them signifies , that systeme or body of doctrine , which they teach : the word , arminian , or pelagian , signifies such a person , who holds that christ tasted death for every man , in the scripture sence : and again who holdeth in the scripture sence , that god would have all men to be saved , and none to perish . by socinian , they frequently understand a person that will not bruit it in matters of religion : by proud , they sometimes mean , him that will not stoop to the high presbyterian yoke , or to their judgement in other things . my meaning is not , that they intend or desire ; that the words or terms specified , should in their writings , or teachings , be taken in the sences respectively mentioned ; but that truth cannot ordinarily be made of what they write or teach , when any of the said words are used by them , unlesse they be taken and understood in the said respective significations . and by their usage of these , and several other words , upon the terms expressed they have wretchedly abused the simple and over-credulous world . but i confesse , that if i be learned , ( as you please to stile me in the superscripcion of your letter ) and yet a sophister ( in the true and known signification of the word ) my condemnation is the greater , and equal to a rich mans , who is a common theef . but it may be , that was your complement , and this your heart . ( c ) those babes unto whom god graciously revealeth himself , are not persons full of malice and revenge , or who will justifie themselves in scandalous and publick misdemeanors , nor who are alwaies learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth ; but such who are babes or children , in malice , who are tractable , and teachable , and easie to be intreated by the truth , though otherwise they be men in understanding . ( d ) this is an untrue charge , like unto many others in your epistle . i do not affirm or say , that your book was written by a son of belial ; but onely suggested that such a thing might possibly be , and that you might be abused in it , as well as my self . ( e ) whereas you seem to extenuate the crime of your falsification , by saying , because there was one little word svch , omitted , &c. i confesse the word , such , is no word great of bulk , or body : but it was the spirit and life of that sentence , of which you make a dead corps , by separating it from it , and without which , as specificating that assurance of the unchangeableness of gods love , of which i there speak determinately , you represent me as speaking that , which is further from my thoughts , or sence , then possibly from your own . and for you to pretend that it is one little word omitted , as if it were the lesse in consequence , because it is little in bulk , or quantity , doth it not bewray your great inconsiderateness ? the words , no and not , are each of them somewhat lesse then such , yet he that shall leave them out of nine of the ten commandments of god , shall of so many holy and just commandments of god , make alike number of horrid suggestions of the divel . besides the difference between sibboleth and shibboleth , consisting onely in an aspiration , which as grammarians inform us , is lesse then a letter , is farre lesse then that between , any assurance , and any such assurance ; yet did it cost many thousand men their lives a : but besides the little word svch , you omit many others in your said transcription , viz. all these ( in the beginning of the period ) yea ( that which is yet more ) i verily beleeve ; which words have some considerable influence upon the sentence . yea the truth is , had you put in all these , and the little word , svch , too , unlesse you had moreover interpreted my meaning in this word , which you might and ought to have done , from what i had said before , and from what follows after , you had not dealt christianly or fairly in the transcription . for to take a sentence out of the midst of a discourse , the meaning and right understanding whereof depends upon what goeth before , and what comes after , is not to represent the mind or judgement of the author in such a sentence , but with ambiguity , and with the greatest probability of mistake . therefore whereas in your words immediately following , you go about to justifie your selves from the crime of falsification in any degree , the very certain truth is that you are falsifiers in a very high degree . ( f. g ) it is indeed a righteous providence , that i should accuse you of falsification : i beleeve that god put it into my heart to do it , for the manifesting of your unworthiness , first privately unto your selves ; and then , upon your obduration and impenitency , unto the world . but that i should do it upon the terms asserted by you , is no providence at all , but a broad-faced untruth affirmed by you , and such an affirmation from you is indeed to be admired . for whether i be a falsifier or no , ( which shall be put to the trial anon ) it is as certain as certainty it self , and hath been already proved in the sight of the sun , and above all contradiction , that you are falsifiers , according to your charge : therefore not joseph with his chastity , but josephs mistresse with her wantonnesse , is your parallel . you lay claim to innocency , as saul did to obedience , when the prophet samuel charged him notwithstanding with rebellion . sam. . , . and he that taught you to talk of admiring that which you expresse , as a righteous providence , taught you to speak prophanely , and not as men awfully sensible of the majestique holiness and power of god . book-sellers or beacon-firers , §. ii. to the first of your three censures then , we answer , that when you relate the judgement of the reformed churches , concerning the unchangeablenesse of gods love toward his regenerate children , ( a ) you your selfe are guilty of a most notorious falsification , which your letter tempts us ( b ) to call , forgery , because you forge a vile opinion , ( and you are excellent at that kind of forgery ) ( c ) and then lay a bastard of your own begetting at the churches doors , and would perswade the most chast protestants , that they must father your own hard-favoured monster . are not you ashamed to stain paper with such slanderous cavils ( d ) did any of those learned men , against whom you write , ever assert the unchangeablenesse of gods love to apostates ? to men that are never so desperately wicked and prophane in his sight , though they continue never so long in their outragious wickednesse . ( e ) mr. goodwins animadversion , ii. ( a ) here again you falsifie a fresh , laying to my charge that which i know not , no nor yet your selves ; you should have done well to have pointed at the place in my writings , where i relate the judgement of the reformed churches concerning the unchangeablenesse of gods love towards his regenerate children . for i do not remember that i have related the judgement of any of them all , touching this head of doctrine but onely of the reformed churches of saxony ; and this i relate in their own words p. . of my redempt . redeemed . in the same page i refer indeed the reader to another authour , who hath made a collection of the sence and judgment of more of them : whose relations and collections in this behalf , if you can disprove you may do it , if you please ; but if you discover any thing amisse in him ( which i presume you cannot ) you must have a conscience by your selves to lay it to my charge . however it had been requisite for you , upon such a charge as this , to have directed me where i shall find the judgement of the reformed churches in the point , related in conformity to your sence and desire ( for i am far to seek in this ) that so i might have compared my report hereof , with the said judgement declared and laid down by these churches themselves . for in case i should find that i had mis-reported it , i should not consult your example for a justification of my error , but the example of david , which teacheth me to confesse my sin , and to flee to the golden altar of repentance for my sanctuary . so that that most notorious falsification , of which you would make me guilty , is but another most notorious falsification of your own : you can prove nothing of it against me . ( b ) however , i marvel you should say that my letter tempts you to call it , forgery . he that calls a spade , a spade , doth not tempt another to call an hatchet , a spade . ( c ) no gentlemen ; as elijah answered king ahab , who charged him with troubling israel , i have not ( saith the prophet to him ) troubled israel , but thou and thy fathers house ; so may i with evidence enough of truth , answer you , that it is not i , but you and your prophets , that are excellent at that kind of forgery you speak of ( if you will needs place an excellency in it ) you , or they , or both of you together , in the inditing of this very epistle , have begotten i know not how many of those bastard and hard-favoured monsters you talk of , and have layd them at my door . but i shall remand them to those , who have polluted their consciences with the malicious pleasure of their generation , and cause them to bear the shame of them . ( d ) the shame of staining paper with slanderous cavils , is a covering fit for your faces ; it suiteth not with mine , further then by a christian sympathy i bear the burthen and shame of your folly in this kind . i wish that slanderous cavils were as much beneath you , and your prophets , as they are beneath me . ( e ) truly you need not put this question to me . for i freely confess that i do not know any of those learned men against whom i write , who ever asserted the unchangeableness of gods love to apostates , or to persons of that character , which you further describe . the opinions of those learned men , whom i oppose or write against , so far as i oppose them , are obnoxious more then enough , as expressed by themselves ; so that i have no temptation lying upon me to falsifie or corrupt them ; yet some of the learned men you speak of ▪ and particularly your prophets about the city , do assert the unchangeableness of gods love towards all true beleevers ; many of which i have evinced both from the scriptures , by pregnant argument and demonstration , by a full consort and harmony of orthodox and learned men both ancient and modern ; yea by many testimonies of those persons themselves , who are counted pillars of the contrary faith ; yea and lastly , by experience it self , may , and do , turn apostates afterwards . book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. iii. we have heard of some arminians , who never did read calvin himself , but were wont to read calvins opinion in a jesuite , and take it for granted that their brother jesuite was to be trusted : we fear that you may be baptized into the same spirit of giddinesse ( a ) you put the poor protestant in a bear-skin , and then set the dogs upon him , that you may disport your self and your confederates with that tragick comedy . give us leave to tell all your friends who beleeve as your church ▪ beleeves , that they who are false accusers of the brethren are sons of belial , ( b ) it is not calvin , but mr. goodwin , who doth maintain the apostacy of the saints in his blasphemous libels . ( c ) it is no wonder if such ( we shall remember the word such ) apostate saints are inslaved in journey-work to apostate angels ; ( d ) be pleased to arm your selfe with patience , whilest we tell you a story which runs thus in brief ; when your brother bertius gave his booke , de apostasia sanctorum to king james , the king passed this censure upon him , this heretick , saith he , deserves to be commended for his wit , but hanged for his knavery . ( e ) mr. goodwins animadversion . iii. ( a ) i can deliver you , or , if you please , you may ( i conceive ) with some pains deliver your selves , from this fear concerning me . for in my reading i never met with any of those citations from calvin , on which i insist in any of my writings , in any jesuit whatsoever : and i beleeve that you may travel a long journey in reading these authors , before you meet with any of them . you speak so many untruths , and these fully known unto me for such , in this letter , that i know not how to beleeve you , when you say , we have heard of some arminians , who &c. i much doubt whether ever you heard of any such or no ; especially from any informer worthy credit . i fear you pin your faith upon the sleeves of many , who ( after the manner of the false prophets of old ) make you glad with lies . you make the arminian , brother to the jesuite ; but the kindred is much neerer between the jesuite , and the black-friars . ( b ) here again , you only vary the phrase ; but pour out your high-presbeterian spirits in the same shameless untruths , with which you stained both your credits and consciences at once in the former section . you and your rabbies to use a word of your own ) are they , who put not protestants only , but many the dear children of god themselves into the bears-skins you speak of , and then do as you say . as for me , i do not remember that i anywhere make use of any bears skin , but what i have pluck'd off from the backs of those , whom i put into them . nor do i set the dogs upon any poor protestant , unless it be upon my self , and those few friends ( by you termed confederates ) which god hath given me : against these i have exasperated and enraged , you know who , and how . but neither i , nor any of my confederates ( as far as they are known to me ) are wont to disport our selves with any mans weakness , or shame . the truth in this point , as in twenty others in your letter , is not at all beholding to you for your courtesie in sparing her . you need neither crave leave , nor take leave , to tell my friends , that they , who are false accusers of the brethren , are sons of belial : they are instructed in this truth to your hand : and by the light of it they are able fully to discern , who , and what manner of persons you are . if your meaning be to reflect upon me as a false accuser of the brethren . you act like him , who compasseth the earth to and fro , to draw men into the same condemnation with himself : you will never be able to prove that i ever accused any man falsely , much less a brother . therefore consider in the fear of god whose sons you make your selves by this charge . those who beleeve as the church with me beleeveth , beleeve as the scriptures teacheth you , and all other men to beleeve : and this you may , through the long suffering and bountifulness of god , come to know in time ; although the truth is that you desperately obstruct your way to the knowledge of the truth , by entreating those so unworthily , who desire to make you partakers of this happiness with themselves . but me thinks you of all men should not disparage men for beleeving as their church beleeveth , who suffer your classique and synodical pastors to exercise what dominion over your faith , they please . ( c ) if by my libels , you mean my little books ( for other libels of mine , neither you , nor i , know any ) you commit the sin of falsification , in adjuncto , in calling them , blasphemous . nor need i at all be troubled for being charged with blasphemy by the sons of high presbitery ; for was not the lord jesus christ himself , blessed for ever , charged with the same crime by men of a sympathizing spirit ? then the high priest rent his clothes , saying , he hath spoken blasphemy : what further need have we of witnesses ? behold , now ye have heard his blasphemy . mat. . . be you more confident , if you can , or more zealous in the expressions of your confidence , that there is blasphemy in my books , then the high priest with his associates were , that that lamb of god blasphemed . nor doth mr. goodwin in any of his books maintain the apostafie of the saints ; but condemneth it , as a most hideous sin . or if your meaning be , that in some of his books he evinceth by the scriptures , by arguments impregnable , by authorities numerous ( and these of the best ) by frequent experiments , a possibility of the saints apostatizing , i subscribe the charge , and shall not put you to prove it . in the mean time , whether calvin doth not maintain the apostasie of the saints , as well as mr. goodwin , let himself be consulted in those few places and passages in his writings , which are transcribed by me , page . . . of redemption redeemed . therefore here again you are out of the way of speaking truth . ( d ) who you mean by svch apostate saints , ( you remember the word svch , to very little purpose here , for you had spoken of none before ) and who , you say it is no wonder if they be enslaved in journey-work to apostate angels , when you tell us , it is like we may consider of the saying : mean while it shall pass for a nihil significat , and so escape upon better tearms then all your letter besides . onely i cannot but wonder a little , that yov should talke : of svch apostate saints , who deny all possibility that saints should turn apostates . ( e ) i have more need to put on bowels of pitty , then arme my self with patience , to hear you tell a story , with a conceit of lifting up your cause to heaven by it , of which first you have no knowledge whether a word of it be true , or no : secondly , which , if it were true from first to last ; would rather be a blot and prejudice to your cause , then any matter of honour . for first , if you remember who made king james , the defender of your faith , you have small cause to like your faith the better for his defending it . secondly , nero's hatred and enmity to the christian religion , turned rather to a testimony unto it , then to any matter of disparagement , or disrepute . but you are ( i perceive ) of that generation of men , who love to be of the kings religion , be he , or it , what they will . i wish for your sakes , that your honesty may turn to as good an account unto you before god another day , as that in my brother bertius ( as you call him ) which your story calls knavery . and as for the hanging you speak of , i beleeve that some of your arch-teachers ( i will not say the architect of your epistle-fabrique ) for carolizing , and scotizing , and playing yea and nay with the parliament , was far deeper in the merit of such a penance , call it by the name of knavery , or what you please , then bertius ▪ was . book-sellers , or be ▪ firers , §. iv. be pleased in cool blood to consider , that the protestants do maintain , that the chosen people of god are elected to faith and godliness ( a ) and to perseverance in both , and such is the unchangeableness of gods love towards them , that they are kept by the power of god through faith unto salvation . pet. . . the purpose of god according to election , shall stand ( b ) and therefore they shall stand , rom. . . we depend upon gods faithfulness , and not upon our own , heb. . . the gifts and calling of god , are without repentance , rom. . . mr. goodwins animadversions . iv. ( a ) it seems you think you have over-het my blood by making me to bear your burthens of unjust revilings and reproaches . but if this be your thought , surely you judge your request here made unto me , viz. to consider in cool bloud , &c. very difficult of performance . but i have been so long a bearer of the burthens of men , that the work doth not much trouble or distemper me . therefore i shall here hearken unto you , & consider with the best of my understanding what the protestants do maintain . but i fear that neither you nor your prophets are competent to inform me . besides if i were never so well satisfied herein , yet i must cleave to , and profess , what paul and peter , & the rest of the hagiography maintain , not what this or that protestant maintain . for that there is not idem sensus , eadem mens , amongst protestants about the point you here speak of , is too well known to be any knowing mans question . if there be some that hold as you say , that gods chosen people are elected to faith and godlinesse , they are none of the best considerate , unlesse by faith and godlinesse , they understand increase in faith and godlinesse , in which sence the word beleeving , is used joh. . . and frequently elsewhere ; and so holy , for further holy , or perseveringly holy , eph. . . with many the like ; and by being chosen to these , and to perseverance in them , such a kind of chusing on gods part , which doth neither necessitate , nor include or suppose any thing that doth in time necessitate , those who are thus chosen , either to a progresse or increase , much less to a perseverance in them . with such protestants , who thus conceive of gods election unto faith and godlinesse , and perseverance in them , i fully concur in judgement so far . if your prophets tell you , that there are no protestants of this judgement , they either bewray their ignorance herein , or a much worse principle . as for the two texts of scripture , pet. . , and rom. . . how irrelative they are to your cause , unlesse it be by way of opposition , and consequently , how impertinently they are here cited by you , i have sufficiently declared and proved elsewhere , the former pag. , . &c. of my redempt . redeemed , the latter , pag. , , and again pag. , . &c. of my exposition of the th . to the romans . whereas you say , you depend upon gods faithfulnesse , if your sub-meaning be , that i do otherwise ( as it must be , if you write by the same law , by which you censure and condemn me in my writings ) you put me into a bears-skin , and lay a bastard of your own begetting at my door . i trust the language pleaseth you well , being your own . but whereas you adde , and not upon our own , if by your own faithfulness , you mean , either your own faith , or your perseverance in it , if you have no kind of dependance upon it , it seemeth your judgement is , that you may be as well saved without it , as with it . if this be your sence , i confesse i am not herein of your mind . you may be rectified in your judgements , if you please , about the mind of the holy ghost in rom. . , by perusing the . § . of chap , . of my book of redemption , and reading forward to the end of this chapter . booksellers , or beacon-sirers , §. v. we are assured of the unchangeableness of gods counsels by the promises and covenant of god , ( a ) by the seals annexed to the covenant , by the earnest given to assure the bargain , by the witnesses to confirm that last will and testament of special and saving grace ; which testament is further ratified by the oath of god , and heart bloud of christ : we are assured of all this , not onely by christs death , but by his life , for christ saith to every soul that he hath quickned by special grace , as he said to all his disciples , but judas the son of perdition ; ( b ) because i live , ye shall live also , jo. . . god saith to all whom he brings under the power of the covenant of grace , i will be your god , and ye shall be my people : i will , and ye shall . i will not depart from you , and ye shall not depart from me , i will not , ye shall not ( c ) such an unchangeableness as this , true protestants , such as edward , arthur , and william ( d ) do maintain , such an unchangeableness as this you do oppose ( e ) such an unchangeableness as this the scriptures do hold forth , and yet you cannot upon this or any other account , prove the scriptures of the old and new testament , not to be the pure word of god , though you have a cursed art in swan-alley to undermine the authority of the scriptures , even when you do most pretend to defend them ( f ) it is a black art ( g ) leave it for your juggle is discovered , your folly manifested , and your book about , we had almost said , against , the scriptures would have been wast paper , had not some anti-scripturists brought them up ( h ) we can purchase some of your works at a good easie rate already : but we beleeve the cooks will help you away with some of them next moneth to defend geose and turkeys , to lay up spice , and underlay their pies , ( i ) and therefore we think your works need not be called in . mr. goodwins animadversion . ( a ) if you be assured of the unchangeablenesse of gods counsels , by the several means you here enumerate , i am glad for your sakes , that you are in so christian a posture . god of his grace keep you in it . ( b ) but whereas you exempt judas from amongst the disciples , to whom christ said , because i live , ye shall live also , i know no sufficient ground you have from the scripture , or otherwise , to do it . for certainly judas was included in another saying from the same lips of grace , which imported as high a favour as this . and jesus said unto them , verily i say unto you , that ye who have followed me , in the regeneration , when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory , ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of israel . mat. . . if you please to peruse chrysostomes exposition of this place , which you may find faithfully delivered , pag. , . and again , , of my redemption redeemed , you will find him looking upon judas , as a son of the kingdome for a time , which opinion of his i give notice to be ( together with the ground and reason of it ) approved by peter martyr , who was alwaies untill now judged a protestant , yea and not the least amongst those that are called orthodox ; from whose pen likewise we took knowledge , upon the occasion , of that golden rule , that the promises of life and salvation , made by god unto particular men , are to be understood with reference to the present state and condition of things with them . a but if judas was excepted as you say , your cause is neither the whiter , nor blacker , for it . ( c ) god indeed speaks , as you here say , i will be your god , and ye shall be my people , unto all whom he brings under the power of the covenant of grace ; but first , this proves not , that he speaketh not the same thing unto others also . nor do you , nor can you , prove that the whole nation of the jews , to which this promise was jointly and indifferently made , levit. . . were all , in your sence , brought under the power of the covenant of grace . . the performance of this promise , even where it is made , or applied , to such persons as you speak of , is suspended upon their obedience and perseverance in it , cor. . , . whereas you mention another promise in these words , i will not depart from you , i find it not , at least in your terms , in all the scripture . i suppose you look at jer. . . but how far the heart of this passage is from your cause , is demonstrated at large , pag. . , , &c. of my redempt . redeemed . by the way is it not a rank impertinency in you to think to stop my mouth , or satisfie me , by a bare citation of such texts of scripture , as if they countenanced the way of your errour , which i have upon a diligent and narrow enquiry , evinced above all reasonable contradiction , to have no communion therewith at all ? ( d e ) your edmund , arthur , and william , may very probably maintain such an unchangeablenesse , as you have described ; for i think that in many points they maintain they know not well what . and the description which you have made of your unchangeablenesse , hath neither head nor foot in it . and whereas you say , that i oppose it , you again oppose the truth in so saying . for according to the best construction , among many , that can be made of your words , i assert it , as well as you . the men you speak of may be protestants at large , but this is no character of their orthodoxisme . besides concerning that unchangableness , which , i suppose , you would describe , if you knew how , the publick confessions , of several protestant churches do manifestly contradict it , as you may inform your selves , if you please , by a perusal of pag. of my redempt . redeemed , and by pursuing the directions there given . therefore let us heare no more of this fable . ( f. g. ) in this you speak truth ( though to little purpose ) that i cannot upon the account you mention , nor any other , prove the scriptures of the old and new testament , not to be the pure word of god . nor have i lift up either heart or hand to any such proof , though you ( after your manner ) diabolize me so to have done . that which i have anywhere asserted ( as to this point ) is onely this , or to this effect ; that we are not bound to own for the word of god , or as any part of it , whatsoever every ignorant or heedless person , who was employed of old to transcribe the old and new testament ( for the best pen-men are seldom the greatest clerks ) did insert in their transcriptions , nor yet what every printer of later times , hath through carelesness , or mistake , thrust forth in their printed copies of the scriptures , into the world . jerome in his latter prologue upon job , complains , that for his labour and faithfulness in correcting the enormous translations and transcriptions of the ancient scriptures , he was charged with a double errour , one that when he corrected things amiss , he was a falsifier ; the other , that he did not remove or take away errours , but sowed them . a in the same piece , he complains ▪ likewise of many professors of christianity , who had bibles full of errors and falsities , and these acknowledged for such by themselves , and yet to keep their books fair , without blotting and interlineing , would not suffer them to be amended . and particularly speaking of the book of job , he saith that amongst the latines ( he means , in the latine translations of this book ) job until his days lay on the dunghil , and was spread all over with worms of errors . b yea nothing is more frequent amongst the best and learndest expositors of the protestant party themselves , then to take and give knowledge of error after error , as yet retained in the ordinary copies of the bible , which at first crept in thither , partly by the ignorance , partly by the negligence of those , who were employed to transcribe them . yea very many of the expositors i speak of , ever and anon take upon them to correct and amend : those translations themselves , which notwithstanding they follow otherwise in their expositions : nor is there any of them that attempt this more frequently then piscator . but surely , although you would have me in cool blood to consider , your own blood was in an high distemper , when you talk of a cursed art , and a black art in swan-alley to undermine the authority of the scriptures , when we most pretend to defend them . but whatsoever there is in swan-alley , there is such an art as you speak of , cursed and black , in black-friars , and , perhaps , in the northern quarters of pauls church-yard also ; the practitioners whereof , like the pharises of old , who defamed the lord christ as having a devil ( and this most confidently and impudently ; say we not well that thou art a samaritan , and hast a devil ; joh. . . ) when as he was full of the holy ghost , and acted and spake accordingly ; so do these men most shamelesly , and with outfaceing the most evident truth , traduce such persons as underminers of the authority of the scriptures , and enemies otherwise to the interest of christian religion , who have been , and so continue most zealous , and faithful assertors of the former , against , all opposers , and are devoted heart and soul to the promoting of the latter . concerning that book , which your epistling prophet teacheth you to charge with undermining the authority of the scriptures , one known to be as learned , grave , and judicious as any english-born at this day , and he no independent neither , nor yet of my judgement , at least in several points , about redemption ( with the controversies relating to it ) gave a far different testimonie of it ( though not to me , nor in my hearing . ) to a friend of his he gave his sence and judgement of the book in these words , or to this effect ; that it was as good a book as any was written since the apostles days . this testimony ( i confess ) may be as much too wide on the right hand as your malignant imputation is on the left . nor should the story ever have been told or reported by me ( for fear of being counted a fool for my labour ) but onely to balance the most importune malignity of those men , whose consciences serve them to spit that poyson of asps mentioned in the face of it . upon occasion of which strange unworthiness , the said person expressed himself further to this effect ; that we are now fallen into an age , in which mens consciences will serve them to say any thing . my juggle is discovered , and my folly detected , in such a sence , as the lord christs blasphemy was discovered , by the high priests rending of his garment , mat. . . and the apostle paul murther detected by the barbarians , when they said of him , no doubt this man is a murtherer , act. . . ( h. i. ) it seems by the latter passages in this section , and the mention of cooks and good chear , that your prophets animus , when he compiled them , was in patinis : and moreover that amongst you , you intend to be at the cost and charge , by the help of cooks and geese , and other good chear , to preserve the ceremonious frolique and jollity of christmas ( so called ) from sinking in your days . but because such of my books , as are sold , offend foxes , therefore those that are not sold must do penance , and defend geese : but do not you your selves defend your selves with some of them in this very epistle ? you do somewhat very like a defending of your selves with some of them . sect. . and sect. . and in several other places . whereas you think you reflect great disparagement upon my books , that some of them might have been wast-paper , &c. . i have no demonstrative ground to beleeve that there were not as many novice presbiters , sold , as busie-bishops , or blind guids . if there were not it may signifie nothing else but that the presbyterian party of the world , and their money , are sooner parted , then those that are wiser , and theirs . besides , it is the observation of one of your orthodox men ( for so i conceive him to be , pardon me if i mistake in this ) that learning hath gained most by those books , by which the printers have lost ; whereas foolish pamphlets have been most beneficial to the printers . when a french printer ( saith he ) complained that he was utterly undone by printing a solid serious book of rablais , concerning physique , rablais to make him recompence , made that his jesting scurrilous work , which repaired the printers loss with advantage . of the former part of this observation , he giues three famous instances : the first of arias montanus , who wasted himself in printing the hebrew bible ( commonly called the king of spains bible : ) the second , of christopher plantine , who by printing of his curious interlineary bible , sunk and almost ruined his estate . the third and last , of a worthy english knight ( he means , sir henry savile ) who set forth the golden-mouth'd father ( chrysostome ) in a silver print , and was a loser by it . therefore that many books are no quicker of sale ; may as probably argue the ignorance , weaknesse , and injudiciousnesse of the world , as any defectivenesse , or want of worth in the books . whereas you inform me of some anti-scripturists , who bought up my books about the scriptures ▪ i am very glad to hear it . for the work was in special manner calculated for the use and benefit of such persons , who are either in whole , or in part such , i mean , anti-scripturists ; i trust that thorough the blessing of god upon their labours in reading it , it hath reclaimed many . but i somewhat marvel at your tendernesse here , in saying , we had almost said against the scriptures , considering how bold and daring you are in twenty places besides to speak aloud , and without regret , most palpable and grosse untruths . your thought , that my works need not be called in , is very grave and considerate : should you not do well , humbly to present it to the parliament ? book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. vi . sir , you might have had more honesty and piety , then to have talked of impeaching david of atheisme . ( a ) one of our company that understands latine saith , that you are , illud quod dicere nolo , for saying so ( b ) and we fear that if god do not stop you in your blasphemy , apostasie , heresie , ( c ) psal. . . may be spoken of your own self ▪ and be a very suitable motto to that ill-conditioned book , called , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} which one of our society who understands greek ( d ) saith is a fighting against peace , as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( which would have been a fitter title for your book ) is a fighting against god as we shall prove when you call us to that service ( e ) mr. goodwins animadversion . vi . ( a ) whereas you tell me that i might have had more honesty and piety , &c. do you think it is impossible for your selves to have more of either , then at present you have , or at least had , when you talked of my talking of impeaching david of athisme ? where do i talk either of your , or any other mans , impeaching david of athisme ? i onely shew you the foul face of your transgression , in a glass made of such a supposition , as i there mention . ( b ) i know not who that one is of your company , that you say understands latine : it were well that more , or all , of your company , understood your selves , and your duties , both towards god and man , better then yet you do , though none of you understood either latine or greek ▪ one language is more then enough to speak untruths in , and to revile persons that never did you the least wrong or harm . but to me it is a small thing to be called by one of your company , or by your whole company , an illud quod dicere nolo : onely in this i cannot but glory , that the reproach of an , illud quod dicere nolo , is of so neare affinity with the blessed apostles , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} cor. . . the very terms of reproach and abasement , by which he expresseth the opinion of the world concerning himself , and the rest of his honourable fraternity of apostles , together with their most wile intreaties and usage of them . but whereas you make me bear your latine reproach , for saying so , i cannot imagine what it is you mean i should have said , as meriting the opening of so foul a mouth upon me ; you mention no saying of mine of such an import . ( c ) what such words as these , blasphemy , apostasie , heresie . &c. signifie in your dialect , hath been already declared , i think not the worse of any man , nor of my self , for being arraigned of blasphemy , apostasie , heresie , by you so called . but i marvel how any apostasie should be a crime or matter of offence , unto you , who deny all possibility of any mans apostatizing from true faith and holinesse ; surely to apostatize , with you is but to do as paul did , when he turned his back upon his pharisaisme , and set his face towards christianity , or as he taught the gentiles to do ; when he perswaded them to turn from darknesse to light , and from the power of sathan unto god , act. . . i am content to be accounted an apostate of this denomination . for blasphemy , i signified unto you before , that my great lord and master was accused of this crime : and he hath quieted my spirit as concerning this reproach , with these sayings : the disciple is not above his master , nor the servant above his lord . it is enough for the disciple if he be as his master , and the servant as his lord : if they have called the master of the house belzebub , how much more shall they call them of his houshold . mat. . . . and concerning my heresie , i confesse unto you , as paul once did to the governour of cesarea , that after the way , which you , and some others , call heresie , so worship i the god of my fathers . beleeving all things which are written in the law and the prophets , act. . . it seems it is but a small thing with you to take the name of god in vain , in that you say , we fear lest if god do not stop you in your blasphemy , &c. as if to prevent inconvenience , god must stop men for going on in such a way , unto which they never came near by furlongs . psal. . . may very well be applied unto those , who care not what they say with their lips ; for these are the men , that say in their hearts , there is no god . therefore look to your selves . ( d ) concerning your suitable motto , in talking at this wild rate you seem to imagine , that the word of god was written to serve the folly and distemper of presbyterian spirits . the motto you speak of is as suitable to every book in your shops , as to that of which you speak . i perceive you have no dexterity of fancy , for calculating or contriving motto's . ( e ) you may very possibly prove , what you boast you shall prove , when i shall call you to the service . for though you have most provokingly intreated me , and spoken all manner of evill of me falsly , yet do i not love you so little , as ever to call you to any service , which you cannot perform without fighting against god and his truth . nor is a book ill-conditioned , because you call it so : your common dialect is antiphrastical , as hath been more then once already signified . booksellers , or beacon-firers . §. vii . you say that this sentence of scripture [ whosoever beleeves shall be saved ] is the onely decree of election for substance , and yet you say the decree of election is really and simply god himself , ( a ) this sentence of scripture then , yea and another that is not really the same with this , is by your agreement for substance really and simply god himself . for you say that this sentence of scripture : [ whosoever beleeves not , shall be damned ] is the onely decree of reprobation , agr. p. . this sentence then of scripture also is god himself . for in the d. particular of your agreement , upon the first head pag. . you say that the decree of election , and also of reprobation are both ( as well as all other decrees attributable unto god ) really and simply god himself ( b ) now as far as our weaknesse can judge , these two sentences of scripture , are not for sence or substance really or simply the same sentences . tell us then whether you have not set up two gods really distinct . ( c ) and why may you not make all the promises of eternal life ; and all the threatnings of eternal death in scripture decrees , as well as these , nay gods as well as these , seriously we do not as yet understand ; and if the wise doctor of swan-alley make so many gods , really we are afraid the f●ol hath already said in his heart , that there is no god ( d ) nay have you not advanced to a more impudent folly , and said as much by clear consequence in some of your books : in the chap. of your redempt . redeemed , sect. last . p. . you tell us that the ordinary effects here below , such as victory to the strong , are perhaps more properly ascribed unto the second causes , then unto god . they are the last words of your first chapter . it seems then that victory may be rather ascribed to a potent army , then to an omnipotent god . mr. goodwins animadversion . vii . ( a ) you should have done well , to have directed me to the place , where i say , as you say , that this sentence [ whosoever beleeves shall be saved ] is the onely decree of election for substance . that . i might know whether you do not falsifie here also . . that i might consider upon what occasion i thus express my self . i rather judge that my saying is this , or however my meaning plainly enough is none other , that the sentence of scripture , you mention , contains the onely decree of election , that i know of you will i presume please to understand me as speaking of election to salvation , and not of any election of another kind . whereas you add , that yet i say that the decree of election is really and simply god himself , i suppose that in this you are of the same mind with me , unlesse you either think to find the decree of election out of god , or else something in god , which is not really himself . ( b. c. ) and whereas you charge me further with saying that the decree of election , and also of reprobation ( expressed in that saying , whosoever beleeves not , shall be damned , ( as well as all other decrees attributeable unto god ) are really and simply god himself : and from hence ( in your weakness , as your selves truly speak ) these two sentences of scripture not being ( as you say ) for sence or substance , really or simply the same sentence , insultingly demand ; tell us then whether you have not set up two gods really distinct , i answer distinctly , and plainly , no : for as justice and mercy ( and there is the same consideration of all his other divine properties , or attributes ) though they import very different properties or attributes in god , yet are they really the same in him , nor do they plurifie or diversifie , his essence or being : in like manner the two decrees you speak of ▪ though different , and expressed in two different sentences of scripture , yet are they really one and the same thing in god . yea do not you your selves , at least your prophets , ascribe both decrees the one of election , the other of reprobation , unto god , without so much as once dreaming that hereby they incur the crime of setting up two gods . these then are but frivolous and childish cavils , and unto which your own teachers with their doctrines lie altogether as open , as i , or any of my sayings . whereas you further deridingly ( like your selves ) say , that if the wise doctor of swan-alley , make so many gods , really we are afraid , the fool hath already said in his heart , that there is no god ; surely in case this be so , it is no matter of fear , either to you , or to me . yea i had reason to like my heart the worse , and so had you ) if the fool did not say there , as you express . the trasgression of the wicked ( saith david , psal. . . ) saith within my heart , that there is no fear of god before his eyes . was davids heart the worse , or less holy , and not rather much the better , and the more enlightened , because the transgression of the wicked spake , as he declareth , in it ? if the fool saith not in your heart , that there is no god , the silence argues the darkness of it . but it is a thing very incident to your weakness , to make obloquies and reproaches of things commendable and worthy . ( d ) you go on beating the air very fiercely with the rod of your anger , nay , have you not advanced to a more impudent folly ( it seems you measure me by your selves , as commonly men use to serve their neighbors , and so are in a grand mistake ) and said as much by clear consequence in some of your books ? it seems then that your former consequence , by which you made me speak as much , was obscure and dark . but i perceive that a cleer consequence , and a dark consequence , to you are both alike , and a consequence which is no consequence , but a broad non sequitur , as good as either . well , let us be instructed in your clear consequence . in the first chapter of my redemp. . redeemed , you tell me ( oh that you would learn to tell truth ) that i tell you that the ordinary effects here below such as victory to the strong : this parenthesis is a bastard of your own begetting , as your selves speak , layd at my door ; you find no such in the place you here pretend to transcribe ) are perhaps more properly ascribed unto the second causes then unto god . neither are these the last words of my first chapter , as you suggest ( it seems you are resolved not to give over the trade of falsifying ) the tenor of the last period in the said chapter , is this . . that the ordinary effects , acts and operations produced in these sublunary parts , are not so , or upon any such terms , attributeable unto god , but that they have their second causes also respectively producing them , whereunto they may as truly ( and perhaps more properly ) be ascribed , as unto god himself . this position i lay down , as the latter of the two consequents , naturally flowing from this assertion of the apostle ; in god we move . here you do not onely falsifie by addition ( inserting the parenthesis mentioned of your selves ) but by substraction also , leaving out my parenthesis ( at least the form of it , and somewhat of the matter also ) and over and besides both these , you do not onely mangle and deface my period , transcribing such words of it as you please , and suppressing what others you please , but further turn my may perhaps more properly , into your own , are perhaps more properly . it seems you must keep your hand in ure , and practise falsification at every turn , least you forget it . but suppose your words had been mine , and i had said , as you charge me , that ordinary effects here below are perhaps more properly ascribed unto the second causes , then unto god ; is this an hard , much less an erroneous saying ? is it not more proper to say , that abraham begat isaac , then to say , that god begat him ? or is it more proper to say that god warmed peter at the fire in the high priests hall , then to say ( with the holy ghost , joh. . . ) that peter warmed himself ? your exceptions and cavils all along , are so childishly ridiculous , that it is scarce worthy a man to take knowledge of them . and suppose your exceptions in this section , had been material , or considerable , how impertinent notwithstanding had they been to the cause depending between you and me ? book-sellers or beacon-firers . §. viii . . you say if god reprobated any from eternity , it must be himself . ( a ) . you say that neither knowledge nor fore-knowledge are attributed unto god , any otherwise then hands or eyes ( b ) in the third chapter of the same book . . we meet with so many passages in your writings derogatory to the word , providence and grace of god , that we are afraid atheists will but make themselves merry with your atheistical and blasphemous books . ( c ) we are weary of this drudgery to which you have enslaved us . ( d ) mr. goodwins animadversion , §. viii . ( a. b. ) what if i do say , as you say i do ? what doth this concern either your falsification , or your petition to the lord protector and parliament , or your covetousness , about which three particulars , onely my letter expostulateth with you ? or what evil or untruth , is there in this connex proposition ; if god reprobated any from eternity , it must be himself ? why are the most intelligent and considerate amongst your own prophets and doctors , so careful to distinguish between the decree of reprobation , and the act of reprobating ; and so likewise between the decree of election , and the act of electing , or election it self ( affirming the decrees themselves to be from eternity ; but the executions , or actings of them , in time ; ) what is the reason ( i say ) why they are so weary thus to distinguish , but that they see the unavoidablenesse of the enormous consequent in the said proposition , if they should affirm or hold , that god reprobated any person from eternity . but i have elsewhere demonstratively asserted the truth of the proposition . therefore it was a pure piece of impertinency in you , to challenge me for such a saying , unless you had first disabled my grounds for it . again , what if i say , that neither knowledge non fore-knowledge , are attributed unto god , any otherwise then hands or eys , &c. [ meaning ▪ unproperly , or not formally , or upon such terms , as they are in men , or ascribed unto them ] is not this also a most apparant truth ? nor is it for want of ignorance that your oracles , dr. kendal , mr. pool and others , contend against me for such a saying . it was a lightsome saying of that great light of the christian church in his daies ; we speak few things ( he might have said scarce any thing ) properly [ of god ] but many things vnproperly : yet it is well known what we mean a [ when we speak unproperly of him ] and that men should think that they speak more honourably of god , who ascribe unto him knowledge or fore-knowledge , properly , formally , in the letter , and as they are found in men , or in other creatures , then they , who attribute the same unto him by way of eminency , and transcendency of perfection , free from all those deficiencies , wherewith they are accompanied in men , and in other creatures , as viz acquisition , reception from another , accidentality to their subject , separablenesse from their subject , impairablenesse in degree , limitednesse in degree , reality of distinction from the nature or essence of their subject , ( with several others of like consideration ) that men ( i say ) should think , or imagine , as hath now been expressed , argues extream oscitancy ▪ and either want of due apprehensions of god , or of a right understanding what knowledge , or fore-knowledge , in their formal and proper significations do import . ( c ) you possibly may meet with such passages , as you speak of , in your own distempered and prejudicate fancies ; but certain i am that you can meet with none of them in any of my writings . i wish your prophets may come off with as much peace at the great tribunal of jesus christ , for their doctrines and speakings of the word , provia●nce , and grace of god , as i am groundedly confident i shall . but most assuredly shame and confusion of face will be your portion in that day , for all your un-christian , scurrilous , shamelesse revileings of persons who never wronged you in the least , nor ever intended the least evil against any one of you , or any belonging to you , unlesse you take a timely course by confessing , and forsaking your sin to find mercy . prov. ▪ . you have much more cause to be afraid that the atheists , you speak of , will make themselves merry , with the writings and preachings of your prophets , who day after day , preach broad-faced contradictions , and make the scriptures to say , and unsay ; which being interpreted , is to make them say just nothing . nor are many of their writings any whit more excusable upon the same account . ( d ) your work of cavilling , and calumniating , you speak properly enough in calling , drudgery . you lately told me of some that wrought journey-work to the apostate angels , i hope you will be no longer of their occupation . whereas you say that i have inslaved , you to it , it seems you are very easie , and apt to be inslaved : and of this your weaknesse your prophets make no small advantage , i confesse that in some such sence as the lord christ hath caused many in israel to fal ▪ luk. . . you may say that i have inslaved you to your drudgery . my speaking of the truth hath occasioned you to utter your selves in many sordid , base , and ignoble terms against it . book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. ix . but that we may stop your mouth for ever . ( a ) we will at your request correct the press and put in such , that you may acknowledge a full restitution , and desire you to make good your assertion , not against us ( who are but the servants of the commonwealth of learning ) but against mr. caryl , who as we are informed , did first stigmatise this your presumptuous blasphemy . and when you sent him a letter , and did therein demand a reason of his censure , he gave such satisfactory reasons in his letter to you , as did effectually silence you . ( b ) oh that they had humbled you , but we challenge you in the name of truth and piety , to print his letters , and return an answer to them ; lest we put you to the trouble before you are aware . ( c ) dr. kendal hath charged you home to the life : why do you not answer his challenge ? he taxis you smartly for the self-same passage , which we complain of . dr. owen blames you upon the same account . all these three reverend divines questioned you before we complained of you to the protector and parliament . and if you and your confederates lay your heads together , you will never be able to return a satisfactory answer . you see the restitution of such will not releeve you ( d ) mr. goodwin animadversion . ix . ( a ) you take indeed the same course to stop my mouth , by which rabsecah , stopped the mouth of the godly k. ezekiah and his people , esa. . . and possibly the course you take in this kind may hereafter prosper in your hand accordingly . for the mouth of an oven may dishearten any man from gaping against it . but if you should stop my mouth , by revilings and reproaches , you should render me in this posture but like unto him , who like a lamb dumb before his shearer , so opened he not his mouth . act. . . ( b ) you talk of correcting the press , but you should do well in the first place to correct your selves . for you are the crooked thing that most needs streightning . if you expect an acknowledgement from me of a full restitution , you must not onely put in svch , but repair me in all those particulars , in which i complain of your unworthy dealings in my animadversions upon the first section of your letter under the letters , ( d , e ) i fear you are not so much servants to the commonwealth of learning , as slaves to your own wealth ; and upon this account , to those also , whom you judge to be the grand-masters in this common-wealth , as men that are likeliest to serve your turn , and befriend you . i am both able , and ready thorough the grace of god , to make good the assertion you speak of , not onely against you , who i fear had rather trust men with your religion , then with your books , but against him also in whom you so much glory , yea let him take unto him dr. kendal , and dr. owen , the one for his right hand man , and the other for his left , together with a totquot of as many as you count pillars of your cause . the said assertion then , being interpreted according to the plain , and best known , signification of the words and phrases therein , amounts to nothing more , or lesse , or worse , then this , viz. that if there were any thing to be found in the scripture , which rightly understood , should represent god as unholy , unjust , a lover of wickednesse , a respecter of persons , or should charge him with any thing contumelious or reproachfull , to the most transcendent excellency and perfection of his being , it were a just ground to any intelligent man to demur about their authority , and to bethink himself again and again , whether they proceeded from god himself , or no . the reason of such an assertion as this is evident , and near at hand , as viz. because it is not lightly incident to any intelligent mans thoughts , that god should defame himself , or speak any such thing of himself unto the world , which should be a just ground unto men to think unworthily of him , or of making him like to the vilest or worst of men . whether this be presumptuous blasphemy , or most orthodox doctrine , let any man who ( in mr. fishers parable ) hath not his sences sodden into trapezuntius his temper , judge and determine . i confesse you , and your tutors , are somewhat the more veniable under your zeal , in attempting to cavil , and quarrel down such notions , and sayings , as that of mine misused by you . for many of your opinions and doctrines , concerning god , his counsels , intentions , and dispensations , being so enormously dishonourable to him as they are , and you pretending to build them on the scriptures ; in case any thing found in the scriptures of a defaming import against god , were enough to shake the foundations of their authority in the minds and consciences of intelligent men , you must needs fall under the condemnation , not onely of men speaking most unworthily of god , but of such men also , who teach and tempt the most considering men , and ( in part ) others also , to suspect and question the authority of the scriptures . and if the case were thus with you and them , how should their kingdome , ( and consequently your interest therein ) stand ? you may be informed ( for you had need to plead information with many untruths , to ease your credit a little , for telling so many ) that mr. caryl stigmatized my presumptuous blasphemy . but i was never informed , no not by mr. caryl himself , though he wrote unto me about the passage , that he stigmatized it for presumptuous blasphemy ▪ no not for blasphemy in any the lowest degree yea when as in my letter to him , lonely expostulated with him for stigmatizing it with a brand of ignominy , in his answer he disowns any stigmatizing it at all , save onely in a very qualified sence , as is to be seen in the letter it self , printed verbatim at the end of these papers . but whereas you affirm , that in his letter to me he gave such satisfactory reasons , which did effectually silence me , you do your accustomed devotions to the goddesse mendacina . there was nothing at all in this letter in any degree satisfactory unto me : nor doth he argue the point , ( i mean the subject matter of the passage ) little , or much , in it . and so far was this letter from effectually silencing me , that my mouth hath ever since been as wide open , in the defence of the truth contained in the passage , as ever before , and is like to be so still . ( c ) whereas , in the swelling vanity of your spirits , you challenge me in the name of your two strangers , truth and piety , to print his letters , and to return an answer to them , threatning me withall , as if you meant to put me to the trouble before i should be aware , if did it not i ; i must . appologize for my self upon somewhat like terms with him , who being conscienciously devoted to his idol , comming towards him upon an assesback , and so having occasion to bow down to it , that the standers-by might not think that he worshipped the asse , said to the beast ( in the act of his adoration ) non tibi , sed religioni : so being charged by the sacred names of truth and piety , to print mr. caryls letters , &c. though i know no reason why i should gratifie the persons adjuring me by these names , yet for the reverence i bear to the names themselves . i shall herewith print the letters , and return an answer , when either i shall see my time to do it , or mr. caryl see his to require it . but ( good gentlemen ) you seem to threaten me with some sore trouble , if i will not do as you say , and this before i am aware . if you could cause the great fabrick of the whole world , to fall like an old rotten house upon my head , impavidum ferient ruinae . the fall should smite a dreadlesse fearlesse man . there is nothing to be gained at my hand by threatnings . ( d ) as for doctor kendal , and doctor owen , two other of your champions , their folly may look them in the face in due time . or if they shall turn their backs upon it , it will present it self with never the more disadvantage unto the world . the first of these ( you say ) hath charged me home to the life . you are mistaken in the method of doctor kendals warfare : he fights more by the stratagem , and go-by , then by the charge . or if by charging home to the life , you mean ( for you are wont to cant ) speaking great words to small purpose , i acknowledge your encomium of him . and if by taxing me smartly for the passage you speak of , you mean , that he would very fain make somewhat of it , if he knew what , for the honor of his wit , and the ingratiating of himself with his party , i must confess that you speak the truth in this also . whereas you imperiously demand of me , why i do not answer his challenge : why do you not ask your great champion ▪ doctor owen , why he hath not all this while answered mr. horn ? as charity , so discipline , should begin at whome . yet i think i may in part excuse the doctor at this turn . for ( doubtless ) mr. horns {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , open doore , is too hard for doctor owen to shut , and his most satisfactory answer would be , to acknowledge as much . if he would make this answer , he should deserve the commendation of a , recte respondes . but my answer to you upon this question , is , that i have publiquely engaged my self , ( death , sickness or other occasional intrusions not preventing me ) to answer more considerable men , and more considerable arguments , then he , or his , are a . it is meet that his betters should be served before him . besides some of his own judgement in the controversies , have no such opinion of what he hath written , as to think that it needs much answer . the reason hereof i conceive to be , because his answers ( more generally ) stand upon such odd , uncouth , wild , and reasonless principles and notions , in which the generality of his own party , can neither find sap , nor savor , nor well tell what to make of them . yea ( if all hearsays be orthodox ) mr. vice-chancellor himself , his co-adjunctor against the truth , hath notwithstanding pull'd in his horns again , which he put out to such a length in his quaint encomiastique of him , prefixed before his former book , entituled {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , reserving ( as it seems ) upon better advice , his high thoughts , for his own writings . but the consideration now mentioned , in reference to doctor kendal , is another reason , why an answer to his book may be spared without any great detriment or loss to the cause . yea upon the same account , an answer given to it , though never so satisfactory and full , would yet amount to no more , then onely to an answer ad hominem : others of his judgement would be little satisfied , or convinced by it , because it would not reach their apprehensions . one thing further is , that could i but entertain the one half of that opinion concerning his theological abilities , which by several strains in his writings , i perceive he admits of himself , i could not but consequentially suppose , that he were able to answer all his own answers , and upon competent studie , to discover the nakedness of all he hath written in the controversies depending between him and me . yea my present apprehensions of the learning , parts , and worth of docter owen , are such and so high , that i really beleeve , would be ingeniously , and with the best of his understanding apply himself to the work , he could pluck up by the roots all he hath planted , and make hey and stubble of those answers and discussions which now ( i question not ) but he desires should bee esteemed silver and gold by his friends and party . notwithstanding , as to doctor kendal , if what he hath written in answer to me , be too hard for himself to answer , i shall at my first leasure , be willing to help him , upon this condition , that he re-print his books , and cause all his froliques ( as himself termeth them ) all his unseemly jears , all his childish and frivolous cavils , all his windy and importue insultations and triumphs , with abundance of other rubbidge not fit for any man to be troubled with , but himself , to be left out . lastly , what doctor kendal hath written needs the less answer , because in the eye of an intelligent and observant reader , he hath rather confirmed , then infirmed , or confuted the arguments of his adversary , by giving the stress and strength of them the go-by ( well nigh all along ) spending his attillery upon phantasms of his own conception , and maters very irrelative to his cause . as for doctor owens blameing me , it is like his act in blaming me , is more blame-worthy , then that for which i am blamed by him . they who have had time to looke into his book , find more then a few blame-worthies in it . yea these two great hyperaspists and champions of your cause , have by one horn both been pushed to the earth , and overthrown both horse and man . ( d ) it is ( i confess ) very probable , that neither my self , nor any other in my behalf , will ever be able to return an answer satisfactory either to you , who are not capable of an answer ( truly so called ) or to such of your party , who judge it more honorable to persist in an error , and this unto death , then to seem to have erred : but i suppose an answer hath been lately given , though brief , yet satisfactory to the life ( your own phrase ) to all considering and un-prejudiced men . booksellers , or beacon-firers , §. x. you are pleased to tell us in your letter to us that you could make a further breach upon our reputations , if you would examine our transcriptions out of the writings of others ( a ) sir , if you have a mind to maintain mr. biddles blasphemies , or adopt them into your association , let us feel the dint of your two edged tongue , ( b ) but we passe to your second charge . you say we give pernicious counsel to the parliament , and advise them to authorize some men , sir-named orthodox , to word it with the holy ghost ? what is this but to charge the blasphemies and heresies of these times upon the holy ghost . ( c ) the lord rebuke thee thou false tongue ; consider that text sadly , if any man speak a word against the holy ghost , it shall not be forgiven him . mat. . . mr. goodwins animadversion , §. x. ( a ) here again you falsifie : i do not tell you in my letter , that i could make a further breach , &c. but onely that it is not unlikely , but that having dealt foully by me , you have not dealt much more fairly by others ; which being found , would make a further breach upon you . concerning mr. biddles blasphemies , i beleeve , and beleeve it to be the sence of many others , that i have laboured , and this publickly , more abundantly in opposing them , not onely then you all , but then all your six commissioners ( elsewhere boasted in your letter . ) therefore whereas you talk of my maintaining these blasphemies , and adopting them into my association , you do but teach those , who know the truth , to undervalue you , and to look upon any thing you say as lesse considerable . ( b ) if my tongue be two-edged , it holds so much the better resemblance with that two edged-sword , that came out of the mouth of the lord christ , rev. . . it is much better to have one tongue two-edged , then to have two tongues , or one tongue without any edge at all . ( c ) is the not authorizing some men to word it with the holy ghost , to charge the blasphemies and heresies of the times upon the holy ghost ? to say that abraham begat isaack , is it to charge sarah with being an adultresse ? i perceive you are no good consequentialists . or have the parliament hitherto , in not authorizing men to word it , in my sence , with the holy ghost , charged all the blasphemies and heresies of the times upon the holy ghost ? when you take me with a false tongue ( as i have done you ten times over ) if you will not forgive me , then imprecate against me , as you do now without any cause at all . the lord rebuke thee thou false tongue . you wish me to consider sadly , that which you propose and cite madly . they who speak maliciously , and contrary to the light of their own consciences , against their brother , are very near neighbours to him , that shall speak against the holy ghost . therefore it concerns you as well , if not much more , to take the advice you give , then to give it . booksellers or beacon-firers , §. xi . as for your committee ( a ) of three orthodox pastors , edmund , arthur , and william , we will inlarge them if you please with three more , john , george , and joseph , and then there is a committee of six : make your exceptions against them , if you can , and take you your joshuah , peter , and tobiah , into your own consociation . we wonder at your boldness , in calling the power of the protector & parliament , a nebuchadnezzarean power , ( b ) but we wonder more that you should invest doctor whichcote doctor cudworth , and the rest of the doctors of cambridge , with a nebuchadnezzarean power over bookes and opinions ( c ) and yet deny it to the protector and the parliament ; you cannot answer that to a committee : and we wonder most of all at your boldnesse and sawcinesse with the god of heaven , when you invest the doctors of cambridge with an autocratorical majesty , ( d ) and affirm that nebuchadnezzar had the self-same investiture . . consider that this is the basest kind of flattery . . the grossest blasphemy to attribute that which is proper to god , to the greatest or best of men : for you your self do acknowledge that autocratorical majesty is peculiar to god onely , where you deny second causes to be autocratorical : wee wish that you had a better heart , and a better memory : ( e ) wee hope the cambridge doctors will not take that glory to themselves , which you ascribe to them , least they be as wormeaten in their intellectuals , as herod was in his body , if they aspire above the order of second causes ; ( f ) mr. goodwins animadversion xi . ( a ) nay , stay a while : you ante-date the power of the men , whom it seems you would have for your presse-masters , in stiling them , a committee . god in his just judgement upon a sinfull nation , may permit them to be invested with such a power too soon : but as yet i suppose you have not procured a dedimus ▪ potestatem for them . whereas you challenge me to except against them , i suppose they are not exception-lesse , unlesse their perfection be hyper-angelical . but as to a magistrality over the press , my exception against them is . . that they know but in part , and therefore must needs be ignorant , if not of many , yet of some , of the things of god , and which concern the eternal salvation of men . in which respect , they are likely to obstruct the publishing of truths of highest concernment unto the world , in case they be ignorant of them . . their present judgement considered , i judge them ignorant of , or at least declared enemies unto , many grand and important truths of the gospel . and that my judgement in this particular , is according to truth , i have satisfied many , and said enough to satisfie you , and all your party , were you not so near of kin to him , who having inconsiderately affirmed that there are twelve commandements , and being admonished of his mistake , and prompted to say , there are ten ; replyed ; i have said there are twelve , and i will , say so still . but thirdly and lasty , ( and somewhat more particularly ) what think ye of him , formerly touched with carolizing , scotizing , and playing fast and loose with the parliament ? is not he one of the six , if not of the three ? i know you would have your committee honorable , and untainted , from the one end of it to the other . the emperour augustus was very tender in admitting any person to enjoy the least degree of the romane liberty , who had ever been in bands , or upon the rack a . if you do not like this tang of the bell , you must not blame me , but your selves , who pull'd the rope so hard by the hand of your challenge sent unto me to make my exceptions if i could. i fear some body forgot the old saying . ipse crimine vacare debet , qui in alterum paratus est dicere . i may have cause indeed to wonder at your boldness in sining , but have you any cause to wonder at that , which is not ? i no where call the power of the protector and parliament , a nebuchadnezzarean power . and yet understanding the word power , of an executive power onely , which the latines more properly call potentia , and not of an authoritative regulated or juridical power , commonly signified by the word potestas , he that shall not estimate their power to be nebuchadnezzarean ( in my sence of the word ) under-valueth it . you pretend here again to wonder , and this with a greater wonderment then your former , at what no wise man would wonder at all . do you not wonder that men should speak , or understand any thing ? or that all men are not either horses , or mules ? or do you wonder that men in speech , should sometimes use metaphors ? are there no such doings in those parts of your common-wealth of learning , which you are wont to frequent and visit ? do none of your prophets speak metaphors at any time ? your cavil at my investing doctor whichcote , doctor cudwoth &c. with a nebuchadnezzarean power over books and opinions , is extreamly childish and futile . it may be i should not be able to answer the high misdemeanor of using a metaphor , to such a committee , as you would obtrude upon me , and others : but before a committee of wiser mens chusing , i make little question of my purgation . but in saying that i invest the doctors you speak of , with a nebuchadnezzarean power over books and opinions , you falsifie by retail , though not by whole-sale . for . i do not anywhere use the expression of a nebuchadnezzarean power , in all my epistle to them . nor secondly , do i invest them with any power , priviledge , prerogative , or the like , but only declare , or affirm , them to be invested already . ( d ) it seems you are set upon the pin of wondering ( a seat whereon wise men do not ordinarily sit ) and the first-born of all your wonderments is , at a very strange thing indeed , were it not in the retinue of things that are not , viz. my boldness and sauciness with the god of heaven , when i invest the doctors of cambridge ▪ with an autocratorical majesty ▪ but will ye not next wonder at the boldness and sauciness of david with the god of heaven , for ascribing unto magistrates the name of gods . psal. . . psal. . . and much more of those other penmen of the scriptures , who so frequently call the idols of the heathens , by the name of gods also ? or is it more boldness or sauciness with god ( as your unbandsome , or ill-sounding expression is ) to ascribe unto men , not simply ( as you , after your manner suggest ) an autocratorical majesty , but with limitation and explication , an autocratorical majesty over books and opinions , then it is to ascribe unto them the plain and express title and name of gods ? besides , your charge of my investing them with this majesty , carries the print of a false singer in it ( as was lately said . ) nor is it any better then a putid of silly cavil , not worthy the genius of a school-boy of ten or twelve years old , to charge me with the grossest blasphemy , because i ascribe unto the university an autocratorical majesty over books and opinions , in such a sence , as i declare and explain in the period immediately following , at large . nor would your committee of licensers , should the parliament indulge you in your anti-christian a request about them , ( which i trust is found among the absits of all considering men ) be able to accommodate you in your expectations , or desires , if they should not invest them with such an autocratorical majesty over books and opinions , as i ascribe to the doctors of cambridge : should then the parliament be guilty , either of base flattery , or of the grossest blasphemy , in case they should invest them with such a power over books and opinions , as that which i rhetorically term , an autocratorical majesty ? or have not i every whit as much ground of hope , that there will be found none ( at least no wise men ) who will take that power and glory , to themselves , without which licensers of the presse cannot be established to do their work effectually , and with authority , as you have to hope that the cambridge doctors will not take that glory to themselves , which i ascribe to them ? when you insinnuate , ( indeed , as good as say right-down ) that i my self ascribe unto god , that autocratorical majesty , which i ascribe unto men , vestratim facitis , you do like your selves , and not like unto men honestly considerate . do i anywhere ascribe unto god an autocratorical majesty over books and opinions ? but he that commits sin , i see is the servant of sin . ( e ) whereas you wish me a better memory , then that which i have , i fear you would be better satisfied , if it were worse . but i shall not burthen you with this jealousie . nay if you be reall and christian in your wish , i most heartily concur with you in it . and by way of recompence , for your good affections to me , most cordially wish you a better understanding ; which i know will accommodate you as much , as a better memory will do me . ( f ) your prophets are they , who aspire above the order of second causes , when they claim a lordship and dominion over mens faith , and undertake to prescribe what must be taught and beleeved by men . and if your notion here be true , this probably may be the cause , why they are ( in your affectate metaphor ) so wormeaten in their intellectuals . booksellers , or beacon-firers . §. xii . . to your ▪ reason concerning qualifications ; the holy ghost doth set down such qualifications both negatively and positively , as would fit men to oversee a presse , though printing was not invented some hundreds of years after the canon was perfected . . negatively , they are not fit to oversee the presse who are men of corrupt minds , destitute of the truth ( a ) void of judgement , or delivered over to areprobate sence . . positively , they are fit , who hold fast the wholesome form of sound words , the mystery of faith and godlinesse , and have their sences exercised to discern both good and evill , ( b ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xii . ( a ) if men of corrupt minds , or destitute of the truth , be not fit men to oversee a presse , i doubt you must contract the number of your committee of six , or else admit of men not fit , according to your own rule , for the service . ( b ) again , if they , and onely they , be fit , who hold fast the wholesome form of sound words , certain i am that your committee of six , are not fit : for they hold fast an unwholsome form of words , and teach many unsound doctrines , which are not according to godlinesse ; the unsoundnesse and ill consistency of several of these doctrines , with the interest of godlinesse , i have demonstratively shewed and proved in sundry places of my writings . nor have all the mercury water that hath been applied , nor all the scrapings , and scratchings , and scrubbings that have been used , been able to cleanse , or clear those doctrines from these stains and blots . by the way , though it be true , that the scripture doth mention such qualifications and characters of men , both negative and positive , as you speak of , in reference to other occasions and imployments , yet by what authority , or warrant , do you make them competent to qualifie for such an apocryphal office , as you call the over-seeing of a presse ? are not you men , who abhominate to make use of your own wits , reasons , or judgements in matters of religion , especially to trust unto them ? or can you prove from the scriptures that your qualifications were ever intended , or meant by the holy ghost , for the designation or characterizing of persons meet to make oversee-ers of presses ? or is your office of presse-over-sight an alien to religion , and irrelative to it ? besides , what warrant have you , but onely from your selves , and your own reasons , when you ▪ undertake to qualifie your presse-masters , with those qualifications from the scriptures , which you expresse , to lay aside and leave out others , which are delivered there upon the same , or like account ▪ with those insisted on by you ? why do you not require in your overseers of the presse , that they be as well , blamelesse , husbands of one wife given to hospitality , not given to wine , not greedy of filthy lucre , not covetous , &c. as men who hold fast the wholesome form of sound words ( which by the way is no scripture qualification : this no where termeth forms , wholesome , but words or doctrines onely . ) notwithstanding this section of your letter hath this , that it is the calmest of all the . book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. xiii . . to your th . all things are not free in a free common-wealth : that christian commonwealth must expect to be ruined , which allows men a liberty to blaspheme jesus christ , or corrupt his gospel ( a ) . to your th . be pleased to read the th . of deuter. the th of zachary , and the th . to the romans , and draw conclusions from thence for your satisfaction ( b ) . to your th . the religion owned by our state is the christian religion ( c ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xiii . ( a ) what you mean by a christian commonwealth , what , by this commonwealths allowing men a liberty to blaspheme jesus christ , or corrupt his gospel , ( i professe ingeniously ) i understand not . if by the former , you mean a nation or state , wherein christianity at large is more generally professed , that which you speak here of a christian commonwealth , you might as well have spoken of an anti-christian . but i pray tell me , did you ever know , or hear of a commonwealth , which was either christian , or anti-christian , that did allow men a liberty to blaspheme jesus christ , or to corrupt his gospel ? or doth it follow , that unlesse a committee of presse-masters be established in a commonwealth , this common-wealth must needs allow men a liberty to blaspheme or corrupt , as you say ? or have the lord protector and the parliament all this while , wherein they have established no such committee , allowed men a liberty to blaspheme jesus christ , or to corrupt his gospel ? therefore ( doubtlesse ) you do not understand your selves . nor can any man make sence and truth of your words with the least pertinency to your cause . nor do i well understand what you mean by blaspheming jesus christ , and yet lesse , what you mean by corrupting his gospel . you and your prophets have odd notions and conceits about blasphemy . scarce any truth can be held forth , which thwarteth , or falleth foul on any of your tenents ▪ or doctrines , but this antipathy by you is turned into blasphemy . and whether by corrupting the gospel , you mean the mingling of any errour , though never so light or small , with gospel truths , or whether such a corrupting it , which wholly destroies the nature and blessing intended unto men by it ; or whether , a corrupting it to such or such a degree , between these two extreams , who can so much as steadily conjecture ? the truth is , that i know very few , who are greater corrupters of the gospel , then your greatest champions . when you say that all things are not free , in a free common-wealth , do you speak to any purpose ? or doth it follow from hence , so much as by a dream of a consequence , that therefore the press ought not to be free , because all things are not free ? behold the natural face of your arguing in a glasse : all things are not lawfull for men to do : therefore eating when they are an hungry , or drinking when they are thirsty , are not lawfull . ( b ) the three thirteenths you here point me unto , i have already read at least thrice over ( respectively ) and have drawn conclusions from them to my full satisfaction against yours . and if you please to see what conclusions i have drawn from them , and what grounds i have laid , upon which you also may draw the like , i shall direct you to my respective arguings and explications of them . the first of your three places you shall find examined by me at large , in my treatise intituled , hagiomastix , from § . . to the end of § . . your second , in a small discourse , written upon that text of scripture onely , intituled , a postscript , or appendix to the former discourse . your third and last in the said discourse , from the beginning of § . . to the end of § . . between these scriptures taken conjunctim and divisim , and between your cause , you will find a very cold communion . ( c ) your answer to my sixt reason , is very little , and yet to less purpose ▪ for . what do you mean by the religion , which the state owneth ? . what do you mean , by the christian religion ? for this latter , first : the religion owned and professed by anti-christian states , is ( at least in a sence ) the christian religion . yea they have as much confidence , if not more , of the truth and soundnesse of their religion , as any protestant state can have of the religion owned and professed by them . secondly , i would know what you mean by the religion which the state owneth ; that so it may be considered , not so much whether it be , but how , and how far , and in what sence , it may be called the christian religion . first , if by the state , you mean , either all those onely that have part in the rule and government of the nation , or else the great body it self , and bulk of the nation , who can distinctly , and in particular , tell , what religion it is , that is owned , or that ever will be owned by either ? that religion , or that system of tenents , or confession of faith , which was composed and drawn up by the late assembly of divines and others at westminster , is not ( it seems ) owned , or is not like long to be owned , by the state , ( in either acception of the word . ) for the state ( in the former sence ) is in travail with another religion , i mean , another confession , or profession of faith ; which , when they shall have assented unto , and authorized , there is little question but the state ( in the latter sence ) will ( more generally ) own also . if a man should repair to every particular member of the state ( in the former sence , and much more in the latter ) and desire his sence and judgement , distinctly touching his religion , and what he particularly holdeth in such and such points , there is little question to be made , but that in many things at least , he should meet with the exemplification of the proverb , quot capita , tot sensus : quot homines , tot sententiae : as many men , so many minds . yea in case the respective members of the state ( in the former sence ) shall joyntly and unanimously subscribe and authorize any confession of the faith , which shall be formed , either by themselves , or by any number of ministers , or others , this will amount to no proof , that therefore the same religion , especially in all points , is owned by them . for it is a most true saying , that fides est in sensu , non in verbis ; a mans faith consists in that which he meaneth , not in the words which he speaketh . and who knows not but the same words may have different interpretations and senses put upon them ? therefore in case a state shall publiquely own and authorize a model of religion , or confession of faith , that shall be presented unto them , i shall be very little the neerer hereby to know of what religion this state is , unless each particular member of this state shall further , distinctly and particularly explain his sence touching every article , or head of doctrine therein . the truth is , that to a state religion it may be aptly said ; belluae multorum es capitum : nam quid sequar , aut quem ? a many-headed beast thou art ; for what , or who , may i with peace and safety , for my guide allow ? i confess men may be very unhappily , and beyond the forecast of their own genius inspired in the composing and drawing up a catechism or confession of faith : but i judg that hardly can either be formed or contrived in such words , but that in case i may be allowed my own sence and construction of them , i can subscribe them . book-sellers or beacon-firers . §. xiiii . . to the seventh . you do but repeat the blasphemy which you darted against heaven in your first argument . for we never desired the parliament to suppress any truth revealed by the spirit of god in the holy scriptures , but to suppress blasphemies and heresies . ( a ) mr. john goodwins animadversion . xiiii . ( a ) what gentlemen , suppose i had charged you with desiring the parliament to suppress truths revealed by the spirit , &c. had this been blasphemy darted against heaven ? are you heaven , or any the inhabitants thereof ? i cannot but here tell you , that such importune and horrid assumings as these , on the one hand , and such abominable untruths and slanders , one following in the neck of another like the waves of the sea , on the other hand , are not so much as the way thither , but to a far differing place . for i know cause to beleeve , that i both am , and have been , further from charging you with desiring any such thing of the parliament , as that which you here mention , then you are from desiring it . i onely charge you with desiring that of the parliament , which very possibly may produce the great mischief you speak of , viz. the suppression of truth revealed by the spirit in the scripture . this charge i subscribe and own : and have pleaded to it in part , and am ready to plead further , if you shall require it . book-sellers , or beacon-firers . §. xv . . to the eighth . you have been a tryar these twenty years , and you have cause to fear that you will be trying all things so long , that you 'l hold fast nothing at last . ( a ) you are now about sixty years of age , and one of us remembring a verse . dum quid sis dubitas , jam potes esse nihil , he that cryes all things , and holds nothing fast , seems witty at the first , prooves — at last . ( b ) sir , we have heard that a seeker , who had run through maemany forms and sects , when he came to dye , cryed out that he had been of all religions , and was now of none ; lord , saith he , i have been seeking thee till i have lost my self . o seek and find me now , or i am lost for ever . mr. john goodwins animadversion . §. xv . ( a ) i confess i have been a tryar of mens doctrines and opinions for well nigh twice the number of years , which you speak of . therefore here , contrary to your wonted manner , you undercharge me . but my trying of all things , as i am commanded by god ( whom i shall not disobey for your prophane jearings at me , because of my obeying him ) is so far from being any snare , or occasion unto me of holding fast nothing , that without it i could hold fast nothing like a christian , nor ( indeed ) a sober man . but you ( it seems ) and men of your spirit , instead of trying all things , as god commandeth you , hold fast all things , which your teachers dictate unto you , hand over head without trying any thing . ( b ) you guess somewhat neer the years of my earthly pilgrimage . i bless the god of heaven with my whole heart and soul , for sparing me so long in life and being on the earth , until i had throughly tryed many the doctrines and tenents of your teachers , and found them liars ; yea and had opportunity to stigmatize them for such publickly , and to allarm the world concerning the hatefulnesse and danger of them . the story you tell of your seeker , is extreamly insipid and sencelesse , yea and irreligious with all . for was there ever any man , who lost himself , by seeking god constantly ? there is a letter in print , intituled , sal scyllâ , written by one that had been a seeker for many years , out of which you may gather a story worth ten of that reported by you here . for your poetry . you see that i hold several things too fast , for your stoutest champions to wrest from me . therefore you shoot this arrow at a wrong mark . . to hold nothing fast , and to hold fast nothing , that will do a man good , are birds much of a feather . booksellers or beacon-firers §. xvi . to the th , and the full scope of it in its numerous subjunctions ; we say you are like sin you take occasion by the commandement , to lust after that which is forbidden by the holy law of god , ( a ) if your reason be of any force , it is of an antinomian confederacy ▪ and spends its strength against the holy law of god , as well as the good laws of men . vpon this account no law must be made , against theft , murther , or adultery , lest all these notorious crimes be promoted by these non-prudential laws ; as for spiritual means , we joyn with them who say , they are most proper to sanctifie all civil helps ( b ) and shall ever pray that god would make both effectual for the preventing or suppressing of errors and heresies , lest the plague of egyptian darknesse overspread us . we humbly conceive that magistrates may do much in their places , for the preventing of spiritual mischiefs , by denying men of corrupt minds and injudicious about matters of faith , any such opportunity , as you confesse the presse affords them , for the spreading of their hideous and cursed errors , ( c ) mr. goodwins animadversion , xvi . ( a ) i know not what you mean , when you say that i take occasion by the commandement to lust after that , which is forbidden by the holy law of god . but if you , in no sence at all , take the occasion you speak of , you are of a better mold and temper then the great apostle was . for he ( speaking of himself ) saith , but sin taking occasion by the commandement , wrought in me all manner of concupiscence : for without the law sin was dead . rom. . . you reason not at all against my reason , when you say , if it be of any force , it spends its strength against the holy law of god , as well as the good laws of men . i think in this as you think : it doth spend it self alike against both kinds of laws , i. e. against neither . i confesse that my reason notwithstanding , good laws ▪ may be made by god , and ought to be made by men . and further when you say , upon this account no law must be made against theft , murther , &c. lest these notorious crimes should be promoted by these non-prudential laws ; i confesse , that if . the onely end of making laws , were to restrein the evil prohibited by them ; and . if the generallity or far greater part of men , were of the disposition and temper of some ( i mean of theirs , who are apt to be provoked unto evil , by means of the opposition or barr of the law prohibiting it ) it were better that no such laws as you speak of were made . but both these suppositions being evidently false , your reasoning here falls to the ground . and touching such persons against whom you desire your law , viz. those who are apt or likely to publish such things , as you call errors , blasphemies , heresies , &c. they are ( generally ) of that disposition and spirit , which we lately described ; men ( i mean ) that are apt to be admonished , and the more provoked to do the evil , which you desire should be restreined , by occasion of a law made to oppose them . one reason hereof ( among others ) may probably be ; because such persons will hardly ever be perswaded , that any law made to oppose them in such a way , is just or christian . ( b ) it seems then you join with those , who think , and ( in effect ) say , that all the means , which the lord christ hath afforded , or prescribed , for the due government of his affairs , and kingdome in the world , which are all spiritual , are ineffectual , or unproportionable , for such an end : and that he was short in his provisions and prescriptions in this kind , not remembring to call in the civil magistrate with his prudentials , and arm of flesh , to assist him . if you be agreed with men of this notion , you may walk together . ( c ) those whom you call men of corrupt minds , and injudicious about matters of faith , at least many of them , will ( i question not ) be found men of as pure and sound minds , and of as discerning spirits in matters of faith , as either your selves or your best teachers . in the mean time , i would gladly purchase of you , at the price of the best book in all your shops , so much as a tolerable answer , to this double question ; who are competent to appoint , or to be appointed judges , between men men of corrupt minds , and injudicious , &c. and men that are otherwise ? for it is not meet for any man , or men , to take this honour unto themselves , i mean of being judges over all other mens faith ; much lesse is it meet , that any man , or men , should take so great an honor unto themselves , as to constitute or appoint others to be judges hereof . if your answer shall be , that the civil magistrate is competent to appoint judges in this kind ; you must give me a very pregnant and satisfactory account of his commission from the lord christ in this behalf , and by what rule he is directed by him to proceed in this great and important affair . book-sellers or beacon-firers , §. xvii . to your d. and last charge which is , that we smell of such a spirit as teaches men to suppose that gain is godlinesse , and that our indeavour is to monopolize our trade . we answer . that we are not so vain as to desire what is utterly impossible to effect . ( a ) . that we are willing that all of our trade and company , should have equal liberty with our selves to print or sell any books which may promote the truth , which is according to godlinesse . ( b ) d. we shake our hands from all dishonest gain , it is below us to live by the sins of the age , we look upon it as the basest drudgery in the world to be pandors to the errors and lusts of men ( c ) we might gain by selling biddles books , but we had rather see them burnt by the hand of the hangman . your motto will best become those , who usually print and sell blasphemous pamphlets . for they , if any , look upon gain as godlinesse : but our motto is this , godlinesse is gain , and true piety is the best policy ( d ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xvii . ( a ) here again you make your charge from me greater then it is , that by denying the sum total of it , as your selves make it , you may seem to deny all the particulars . i no where charge you with monopolizing your trade . you would gladly ( i perceive ) be charged with that , of which you can acquit your selves with credit . ( b ) but what if your licensers shall suppress such books which may promote the truth which is according to godliness , and commend to the press those that look another way ? how then shall men of your trade , yea or our selves , have that liberty you speak of ? ( c ) to what end you should purge your selves so zealously from the guilt of being pandours to the lusts of men , i understand not , unless ( haply ) some of your consciences charge you in this kind , and you speak thus to stop their mouths . but for that which you call pandour-ship to the errors of men , i fear you are as obnoxious as others of your trade ; though perhaps you understand not your guilt in it , more then they . ( d ) if you saw the books that you speak of burnt by the hand of the hangman , do you think that the errors , heresies and blasphemies , contained in them , would burn with them ? if you do , i confess i am of a far differing mind from you . i verily beleeve that the ashes of these books would be much more propagative of the said errors and heresies , then the books themselvs . your motto may be as you say , and you shall do well if you be not like those boxes in apothecaries shops , of which an ancient father said , that they had pharmacum in titulo , in pixide venenum . the arch-priest of rome , hath this motto , servus servorum dei ; yet in his practise he is , dominus dominantium , he of your company , that understands latine , may interpret . book-sellers , or beacon-firers , §. xviii . finally to your close , we answer , that you have no jurisdiction over us , and therefore you have no authority to impose any penance upon us , ( a ) or to curse us with bell , book and candle , because we have in some weak measure , discovered you to the world . ( b ) it is true , we owed you svch , and now we have made restitution of it , ( c ) you know not what to do with it , because you are not able by the help of it , to return an answer to those three reverend divines , whom we mentioned before ( d ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xviii . ( a ) i am sorry to hear from you , that you look upon a christian request made unto you , to do that which is your duty , as an imposition of a penance . i perceive that things which are just and comely , are far from being the joy and rejoicing of your souls . you have forgotten your motto already . ( b ) curse you with bell , book , and candle ? surely either i was asleep when i did it , or you , when you said it . name the word , or words of the curse , and save your selves from the shame of a new foolish slander . whereas you speak of suffering from me , because you detected me to the world : the truth is , had you detected me , i should have counted you my great benefactors for it . i shall be a gainer , not a loser , by detection . but so far have you been from detecting me to the world , that you have concealed and hid me from the world , as tertullus did paul , when he termed him a pestilent fellow , act. . . and the malicious jews did our saviour , when they put the veil of this reproach over his face , that he was a samaritan and had a devil ▪ joh. . you have not detected me to the world , but your selves , and have given the world an opportunity , yea a kind of invitation , to see your nakednesse . ( c ) concerning the restitution of which you vainly here boast , it was before proved unto you , that you are debtors unto me of far greater sums , then of the word such : besides , you speak at an extream low rate of understanding , when you have traduced a man openly , and in print , to call a broken kind of acknowledgement in hugger mugger , and sealed up in a paper , a restitution . if you pay your debts after this manner , they are wisest that trust you least . ( d ) yes ; you have seen that by the help of the word h , i am able to return an answer ( as you term it ) to your three reverend divines ) in case any of them should levy an argument , or ground of exception , against the passage you wot of ; which yet none of them have done ( nor can do , with any colour of reason ) but only clamour'd and cavill'd , as you have done . book-sellers or beacon-fyrers . §. xix . if you desire us to print your letter , and this our answer , we will for once make you an apocryphal licencer , and print both ; if you send us an imprimatur by the th . of this instant november ; and then you may present both to the protector and parliament . ( a ) and because the world takes so much notice of you , or at least you of it , you may have both your letter and our answer turned into as many languages , as cerberus hath tongues , and so disperse the history of your conquest over a few stationers throughout the world : but that you may deal fairly with the world , be pleased to tell them the whole truth , and nothing but the truth ; ( c ) we will be your remembrancers in some few particulars . mr. goodwins animadversions , . ( a ) i shall not put you to so much trouble or charge , as to print either my letter , or your answer : you see i have done both to your hand . i doubt whether you will return me your thanks for it , or no . it seems you claim a right of power to make licencers : what need you petition the parliament ? if you can make apochryphal licencers , you can make licencers of the highest order that is : for certain i am , that there are none canonical . touching your permission to me to present my letter and your answer to the lord protectour and parliament , it is not much unlike but that i may accept , and make use of it , if i see occasion . ( b ) if you think not the english territories large enough to spread your shame into , or those who understand the english tongue , a competent number to be witnesses of your folly , you may if you please procure my letter , and your answer to be translated into twice as many languages , as , cerberus had tongues . you have many learned men to friend who abound with leisure . it is but for every man of you to procure his translator in an appropriate language , and then you have double the number of translations to cerberus tongues . as for me , you must needs conceive that i am nothing competent for the work , in comparison of you ; who , in respect of your own number , being six , and your learned party being many , lye under a like disadvantage , as the prophet elijah somtimes did in reference to the great number of the . men spoken of , king. . . . ( c ) if you will please to perform the service your selves , you may be your own proveditors , and deal as fairly with the world , as you desire me to do , and ( if you can at last hit upon it ) you may tell them the whole truth , and nothing but the truth . booksellers , or beacon-firers . §. xx . remember how you have set this city on fire ( for that 's your only glory ) by preaching . ( a ) . that there was no necessity of humiliation before conversion : you bid men go boldly ( did you not mean , proudly ) to jesus christ , and he would humble them . sir they that know you well , think you so proud , that they fear you have not as yet been with jesus christ to humble you . ( b ) . secondly , you taught that a general faith or assent was sufficient , without any particular application of christ to the soul ( c ) . thirdly , you taught men to renounce all in erest in christs active obedience , and you have likewise affirmed that christ needed not to have shed one drop of blood for us , red ▪ red . p. . ( d ) . you denied the imputation of christs all sufficient satisfaction , though he hath suffered for us ; ( e ) . you taught men to trust to their own trusting , to a catholick , tò credere , or an act of general faith , which we look upon as very imperfect and unsatisfactory ( f ) . your anti-scriptural blasphemies have been detected by mr. jenkins ( g ) . your arminian blasphemies have been discovered by dr. owen , dr. kendal and others ( h ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xx . ( a ) if i have set this city on fire , by my preaching , certain i am that it hath been with that fire , which jesus christ came from heaven , to put on the earth , and which he so longed to see kindled , luk. , . and that i have caused it to burn no more with this fire , then i have done , is both my sorrow , and my shame . and if i have thus set it on fire , to any degree , this indeed is ( as you truly say ) my glory . ( b ) if i did exhort or incourage men to go boldly unto jesus christ , doth not the great apostle the same ? when he incourageth , therefore let us come boldly unto the throne of grace , heb. . . will you ask him , did you not mean provdly ? and if i did teach that jesus christ will humble those that come to him , i judge i have a very sufficient voucher for my doctrine . yea , or what do you your selves think ? will jesus christ make proud or humble , those that come unto him ? or do not they rather teach men to go proudly unto jesus christ , who teach them to bring humility , along with them , and to expect entertainment and acceptance with christ , upon the account of their humility , then they , who perswade them to go unto him notwithstanding any sence of the greatest unworthinesse in themselves , and not to be afraid of being rejected by him for any want or weaknesse , that may accompany them in their way ? but it may be , that he that penned your letter , out of some consciousnesse to himself is afraid of this doctrine . you are much mistaken when you say , they that know me well , think me so proud , &c. there are none but those that are strangers , or enemies to me , that think thus of me : they that know me well , are otherwise minded . yea and confidently , and upon good grounds beleeve , that i would be willing and free , notwithstanding all your evil intreaties , and fiery provocations of me , to carry your books after you ; yea to stoop to loose the latchet of the shoe of the meanest of you , had i any competent ground to judge that such a service from me would turn to any spiritual , yea or temporal advantage unto you . but your tongues , it seems , are your own , and you think you are at liberty , to say with them , even what you list . by the way , the city was so far from being set on fire ( in your sence ) by the doctrine you here challenge me for , that it was rather cooled and composed by it , the ministers about the city in those daies , when it was preached by me , more generally , if not universally , consenting to it , and imbracing it . how the latter generation rellisheth the said doctrine , i know not so well . notwithstanding for several years last past , i have not heard of any mouth opened against it , but yours . ( c ) i confesse i have taught ( and teach still upon occasion ) that a firm and cordial belief of the gospel , as it commeth from god , and as it is delivered in the scriptures , and more especially in the new testament , is justifying faith ; and that a particular application , is properly an act of hope , and not of faith , but onely by the mediation of hope . for the justifying of this doctrine , i have not onely scripture , upon scripture , scripture upon scripture , and these most significant and expresse , but the joint testimony also of several divines of the protestant party , as considerable as well for piety , and parts of learning and sound judgement , as any of their fellows . you may see somewhat more then a little upon this account in my redempt . redeemed . pag. , , . ( d ) this is a most notorious slander : i never taught any man to renounce all interest in the active obedience of christ . yea i have constantly taught and asserted the absolute necessity of it to render him a justifier of the ungodly , and savior of men . my sence in this point is plainly laid down in several places of my treatise of justification . ( a nor are you christian in the latter part of your charge , i no where affirm , that christ needed not to have shed one drop of his bloud for us : these are words of your falsification . my words in pag. . of my redemption redeemed , to which you refer me , are these . the salvation of the world , doubtlesse , did not depend upon the actualor literal dying or cruoifying of christ , but partly upon the councel and good pleasure of god to deliver him up unto death in order to this end ; partly upon the readinesse and perfect submission of will in christ to suffer death , in case any man or men should be found , that would inflict it upon him . of this my assertion i give a sober and christian account at large in the sequel of the discourse . how wide the difference is between the notion and import of these words , and that affirmation which you unworthily charge upon me , an intelligent person may readily apprehend . ( e ) this also is a most wretched and daring calumny . never in my daies did i deny the imputation of christs all ▪ sufficient satisfaction . i onely denied that most sencelesse and anti-scriptural sence of this imputation , which was taught by some ministers about the city : but in a regular and true sence i alwaies affirmed it , and accordingly declare my self in the second part of my book of justification , pag. . . ( f ) if you had prayed davids prayer , psal. . . before your drawing up of this article , i judge that god would have heard you , and removed from you the way of lying . for certainly never did any word passe from my lips , of any such tendency , or sound , as here you are not afraid to fasten on me . that catholique {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} credere you speak of , i alwaies abhorr'd , and set my self with the best of my strength and understanding against it . yea i argued against that opinion from time to time , which maketh faith to justifie by vertue of the relation which it hath to christ , upon this very account and ground , viz. because of that affinity it hath with the notion of a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} credere . nor did i ever teach men to trust in their own trusting . it is very like i may have taught them , to trust that upon their beleeving , or trusting in god thorough christ , they should be saved : you are unsatiable in traducing . ( g ) all my anti-scriptural blasphemies may have been detected by mr. jenkin , and yet nothing to be seen by any man . mr. jenkin , according to the proverb , when he went about to detect my scripture blasphemies , sperans fragili den ▪ tem illidere , in solidum impegit , thinking to strike his teeth into that which soft , met with that which was too hard for them to enter . poor man ! instead of detecting my anti-scriptural blasphemies , he detected his own ignorance , and perverseness of spirit . ( h ) mr. jenkins detections , and the two doctors discoveries , are birds of the same feather , or rather feathers of the same bird . the grashopper weighs a talent of lead , in comparison of them . they may for a time serve to build up men in errour , and obduration against the truth . but he that captived captivity a will detect all such detections , and discover all such discoveries in his season . book-sellers or beacon-firers §. xxi . . the agreement subscribed by your church ( which saith that our faith and repentance is the cause of our election ) ( a ) is such an absurd disagreement to sense , reason and scripture , that we cannot but adore the justice of god who hath smitten your intellectuals , and your phantasie , the glory of your proud felf ( b ) and phantastical admirers , ( c ) with such effectual and grosse delusions ( d ) that we wonder you your self do not take notice of it : you see your errors are so innumerable , that we can scarce find heads enough whereunto they may be commodiously reduced . and we have heard of a great rabbi who was converted from cards and sack possets to errors and blasphemies ( e ) but we spare you . ( f ) mr. goodwins animadversion . xxii . ( a ) you begin this section with another sacrifice unto the father of lies , instead of sacrificing to the father of lights . the agreement you speak of , doth no where say , that our faith and repentance are the cavse of our election . but what saith it ? ( as to this point ) it speaketh on this wise ▪ our brethren holding with us ( as hath been noted ) that there is no election of persons , but in time , though the decree of election be from eternity , we cannot conceive what should , or can , reasonably determine the time , when this election should be made ( at least in persons living to years of discretion ) but onely their faith in the first raising it in the soul : and that vpon their beleeving , and not before , they are numbred amongst the elect of god . is here any thing that sounds like a making our faith and repentance the cause of our election ▪ no : both the compilers , and subscribers of this agreement resolved the election of all those , who are elected , into the gracious and good pleasure and will of god . only we are taught by the holy ghost , to look upon our selves as elect , according to the foreknowledg of god the father , through the sanctification of the spirit unto obedience , and sprinkling of the blood of jesus christ , pet. . . and that god from the beginning , hath chosen us unto salvation , through sanctification of the spirit , and beleif of the truth . thes. . . but though we look upon our selves as elect or chosen by god through sanctification of the spirit , and belief of the truth , yet we judg not either the work of sanctification wrought by the spirit of god in us , or our faith [ or belief of the truth ] to be either the the ground or meritorious cause of our election , but the condition only . we acknowledg no cause ( taking the notion of causality properly ) of our election , but the grace , wisdom , and good pleasure of our good god onely , as ( we suppose ) your selves do . ( b ) you charge us with horrid untruths , and with such tenents which never came neer us , and then pretend to adore the justice of god , in smiting our intellectuals is not this an horrid prophanation , and taking the most sacred name of god in vain ? our intellectuals , through the grace of god , have been opened , enlightened and enlarged , to see the truth , as it is in jesus : we evidently discern that your judgments and consciences are smitten and blasted : for you can beleeve , and speak any thing , without scruple or regret . whereas your composer calls my intellectuals and phantasie , the glory of my proud self , i fear he took measure by his own foot ▪ when he made this shoe for me , and ( according to our english proverb ) mused , as he used . i remember what david ( speaking as some interpret ) in the person of god , saith , to the wicked man : thou thoughtest that i was altogether such a one as thy self . psal. . yet i make no question , but that i am proud more then enough ; but whether you and your teachers are not in part accessary unto it , let others judge . for i confess it is not much unlike , but that i may have somewhat the better thoughts of my self , because of your , and their , superlative unworthiness . notwithstanding all the ground and reason that you have , either to think , or call , me proud , is because i do not bow the knee of my judgment and conscience , to the idol dictates and conceits of men , and more especially of your teachers , and this in the presence of that light of the contrary truth , which god brightly shineth in the face of my soul . notwithstanding what i am in humility , i am by the grace of god : what i am in pride , i am of , and from my self . if you would but arm your selves with the apostles resolution , rather to obey god then men , and look for your credenda , beyond your teachers on earth , you would soon perceive me to be as far from pride , as now you think me from humility . but the best is , i am counted and called proud , by strangers and enemies only . ( c ) if i have any phantastical admirers ( which is more then i know ) i do by these presents resign all my interest in them , and consign it over unto your teachers . ( d ) if by effectual and gross delusions , you mean those importune and sensless opinions , which you ( i fear against your own knowledge and conscience ) would compel us to own , it is not god who smiteth our intellectuals with them , but the devil by you smiteth our names and reputations with them . or if by your effectual and gross delusions , you mean those gospel truths , which god hath graciously revealed unto us , and as yet hidden from you ( unless you see , and will not see ) how is it that you tremble not to blaspheme these by the name of , effectual and gross delusions ? you are admirers of the justice of god , much of the same kind with your grand champion doctor kendal . he also ( in an ecstasie of devotion ) much adores the hand of god for infatuing my parts , only because he finds the two words , consequent and antecedent , trans-placed in the printing of my book . ye he rejoyceth more impotently over the mistake , then he that ( as david speaketh ) findeth great spoil . yea he makes as formal , as grave , as solemn a triumph for the discovery , as if it were his master-piece , and the first-born service he had performed in the composure of his whole book ; or as if the interpretation of the strange phaenomenon must needs be , that god had in an extraordinary ▪ way given sentence from heaven on his side , by permitting either the printer , or the author , to shew themselves in so light an oversight to be men . notwithstanding this man is ( of the two ) more excuseable then you . he makes his mountain of a mole-hill : but you make yours of a plain . but you that are such devout admirers and adorers of the justice of god , and hand of heaven , where neither of them are to be seen , are but negligent and loose observers of them in such providences where they are conspicuous , and highly considerable . if we were set upon the wondering pin with you , we might much rather wonder that you take no notice of so many un-christian and high misdemeanors , as by notorious falsifications and untruths , you have perpetrated in this one epistle , then that you should wonder that we take no notice of such delusions in our selves , which are not to be found in us . ( e ) for the story of your great rabbi , which your great doctor brings in here obtorto collo , by head and shoulders , it seems it is but a presbyterian here-say . if you had seven more as wise stories as this to joyn with it , i cannot imagine what service they would all do you . would they make you seem either more wise , or more orthodox , or more religious , or else less unworthy , less froward , less cavilling , less calumniating , then yet you appear to be ? or if your intent be to theatrize me under the pleasant fiction of your great rabbi , the conversion you speak of , will not accommodate you with truth in respect of either of the tearms , either those a quibus , or those ad quos . first , for cards ; there have now twenty one years passed over my head , since my coming to the city : of all this time i never spent so much as half a minute in the recreation ; and for ten years at least together next before my comming , not a whit more . in my younger days , i confess i did pass some of my precious hours in the vanity ; yet without scandal , or , any observation of excess or inordinateness in my addiction or practise that way . as for sack-possets , counting from the first hour that ever i saw the light of the sun , i beleeve there are very few ministers about the city of london though there be divers that have scarce lived half my days , but have fish'd as often in those ponds , as i . if i be brought upon the stage by you , as a man of a servile appetite unto sack-possets , i beleeve i never came there before , upon any such account . and for errors and heresies , whereunto your story ( if it personates me ) pretends that i have been converted , i confess i have been converted from errors and heresies truly so called , unto errors and heresies by you so called , that is , unto the knowledge and acknowledgment of many worthy truths , into the secret of which your souls ( it seems ) as yet never entred , which is the snare upon you to tearm them errors and heresies . ( f ) for your sparing of me , i could be content you should spare me less if ( less may be ) then you do , upon condition you would not spare the truth so much . but if your handling me , as you have done in your epistle , be your sparing me , what would your inclemential and hard intreatings of me have been ? therefore you give testimony against your selves by this saying , that you are of that generation of men , whose tender mercies are cruel : and who are men of this generation , you are informed most authentiquely , prov. . . book-sellers or beacon-firers . §. xxii . from these premises we conclude , that we have justly accused you both of blasphemy and errour ( a ) and do by these presents oblige our selves to make our charge good ( b ) before the lord protector and parliament publickly and in print . and therefore you may proceed after your weak manner to vindicate your self , and recover the sequestred revenues of your reputation , by some writ or act of indempnity : ( c ) this is the satisfactory advice and councel of , your plain dealing ( e ) friends , luke fawne , sam. gellibrand , tho. vnderhill , john rothwell , joshua kirton , nathanael webb . nov. . . mr. goodwins animadversion , xxii . ( a ) it is with your epistle , like premises , like conclusion . neither is there reason to be found in the former , nor truth in the latter . i pray what is the blasphemy , and what is the errour of which you have accused me ? certain i am , that you have proved nothing of which you have accused me , to be either : nay you have not so much as attempted or levied an argument to prove either . no , you have not so much as shewed , or declared in what word , phrase , clause or strein of the passage quarrelled by you , the blasphemy or errour , by you so called , lieth . the citation of the bare words of a text of scripture , is no eviction of an error , or proof of blasphemy . ( b ) you talk of making good your charge : it were a wiser and more christian undertaking , and more fecible of the two , to make your selves good ▪ can you wash a blackamore white ? or can you prove darknesse to be light , or the night day ? then may you have some hope to make good your charge . if you can make it good , certain i am that you can do more then all the angels in heaven . it may be you think to ascend up into heaven in a vapour , and to carry all before you with swelling words of vanity . this i confess is the lofty method of some of your don-teachers ; who if they can but speak gloriously and confidently of their cause , and then wash it over with some slight colour of an argument , which it may be terminates the sight of a partial or formal reader , though it be as transparent as the air , to unprejudic'd and intelligent men , think their atchievement to be greater then all applause ; above all admiration . ( c ) here your metaphorical eloquence passeth ( i confesse ) my intelligence . what you mean by your writ or act of indempnity , though your selves possibly may understand , though i can hardly think this , yet i do not . but truly when you make your selves the sequestratours of the revenues of other mens reputations , you take an office and imployment of no honour or credit at all upon you , unlesse you think those who are known amongst us , by the title of knights of the post , to be persons of honour for their work sake . certainly sathan is the sequestrator general of the revenues of mens reputations , and imploies many under him . and what seneca spake touching mens lives , vitae alienae dominus est , quis-quis contemptor est suae , any man that despiseth his own life , hath power over the life of another man , is as true in the point of credit and reputation . he that cares not to prostitute his own reputation , may at pleasure sequester the revenues of another mans . but for the sequestred revenues of my reputation , i shall recover all in good time , and this with advantage , by an act of indempnity from jesus christ , which you will not be able to reverse . you will be turned out of your office of sequestration in that day . ( d ) i know no advice or councel at all , that you have given me , unlesse it be implicitely , and by consequence : and thus you have advised me to beware of men of your principles and spirit . this advice i confesse is satisfactory , and i intend to take and follow it , as far as with a good conscience i can . ( e ) if your plain dealing in your shops , be like your plain dealing in your letter , in case i were your customer , i would desire that you would deal roughly , not plainly , with me , because your plain dealing , upon that account , would be full of unrighteousnesse and untruth . but in as much as you give me to understand , that one of your company understandeth latine , and the word planus , from whence the english word , plain , cometh , signifieth , according to the different quantity of the former syllable , in the latine tongue , as well a crafty , jugling , dissembling mate , as a plain , honest , and open-hearted man . [ vir planus , est fallax : sed aperto pectore , planus ; ] it may be you were advised by him to the choise of the word , for the opportunity sake of the opposite signification of it , under the covert whereof you may act what part you please . but were you really , and not in complement , my plain dealing friends , you would deal truly and plainly . [ i. e. honestly and fairly ] with me , you would acknowledge your un-christian misdemeanours towards me , and adjust my reparations . in doing this you should be your own friends as well as mine : and plain dealing , in your sence , with your selves , you will find an higher point of christianity , then the like dealing with other men ; especially with those whom you count your enemies . my christian and worthy friend and brother in christ , i came some few dayes since casually to understand , that there is one passage in my late book , intituled redemption redeemed , ( possibly among many others of less offence ) of so hard a resentment with you , that you judged it of very dangerous consequence , and have cautioned several persons ( as some of themselves have reported , i know not how publickly , or unto how many ) against the danger of it . whether your intent was hereby to blast the credit of that one passage onely , or to render the book it self as unsafe , or however of no good consequence for them to read ; i shal not too narrowly enquire into , much lesse determine . i acknowledg it to be far above my line , in the composure of a book to be able to pre-apprehend or fore-see , what notions or expressions may possibly distaste , or provoke a spirit of prejudice and pre-occupation ; or to deliver my sence at every turn upon such tearms , as to leave no place or possibility for sinister constructions : but this i am able to avouch , as in the sight of god , who will shortly bring every secret thing unto judgment , that in the penning of that book i was conscientiously studious and careful , to decline , as well in matter , as in words , whatsoever i apprehended likely to offend any man , further or otherwise then as the truth , even with the fairest and clearest delivery of it , is apt to offend those who are not disposed , or prepared in their judgements , to receive it . and i now am , and i trust alwayes shall be willing , and ready to do the best i can , to heal every mans offence taken at any saying or expression in that book , when i come particularly to understand the ground or occasion of it . i hear that within these few weeks there was another ( whose name i shall spare at present ) who very reasonlesly , and without the least cause given , stumbled in the university pulpit at cambridge , at another passage in the said book , where i give an account of my judgment concerning the fulnesse , freeness , & effectualness of the grace of god . notwithstanding , i had in some particular & distinct explications of my self immediatly before , endeavoured to remove the stumbling-stone ( such as it was ) out of his way ; and had shewed him before this , how he might with a very good conscience , & with more honour to himself , have passed by that passage without lifting up his heel against it , but that i want such particularity of information about the carriage of the discourse , as i desire , & hope in due time to obtain . as for him , who arch-rabbi-like , concluded at once , & without premises , al those without exception that hold the doctrines of general attonement by christ , and of a possibility of a final declining in such who ever believed , to be men godlesse , christlesse , spiritlesse , gracelesse , i shall at present onely advise him to lay his heart close to those two sayings of a wise man , prov. . . and prov. . . when i shall hear that he is throughly baptized into the spirit of these scriptures , i shall judge him a person worthy a reproof , when he offends . in the mean time , i judge , that he , who told it amongst news from heaven unto the city , that arminius his rotten posts were lately new painted , together with him , who not long after ( diurnal-wise ) told the same story over again to the same audience , only in a more dismal metaphor , informing them , that arminius his ghost was lately started out of his grave , and walked ; neither of them medling any further with the controversies . i judge , ( i say ) that these are men wise in their generation , and did well consider that the name of arminius is the most forcible engine ( though made of nothing but air and wind ) to batter the walls of those opinions , which they so cordially wish in the dust ; and that should they have engaged any scripture or argument upon the designe , they had run an hazard of losing all that ground , or more , which they had reason to hope they had won , by drawing the pedigree of the said opinions , though most untruely , from arminius , it faring with their credulous hearers according to the proverb ; the blind swallow many a fly . but sir , concerning that passage in my late book , upon the horn whereof you were pleased to tye a lock or bunch of hey , by way of signal unto your friends and others , to take heed of it , and to keep at distance from it ; if my intelligence leadeth me to the right place : ( as i suppose upon competent grounds it doth ) as far as i am able with the most impartial eye i have , to see into it , it is so far from meriting the brand of ignominy , wherewith you have stigmatized it , that rightly understood and considered , it is as innocent and offenceless , as any saying that ever fell from your own mouth , in any of your sermons . the passage ( i presume ) is this , page . of the said book , i shall recite it verbatim . yea ( that which is yet more ) i verily believe , that in case any such assurance of the unchangeableness of gods love , were to be found in , or could regularly be deduced from the scriptures , it were a just ground to any intelligent and considering man , to question their authority , and whether they were from god , or no . the reason of this saying i immediately subjoyne in these words , for that a god infinitely righteous and holy , should irreversibly assure the immortal and undefiled inheritance of his grace and favour unto any creature whatsoever , so that though this creature should prove never so abominable in his sight , never so outragiously and desperately wicked and prophane , he should not be at liberty to withhold this inheritance from him , is a saying , doubtless , too hard for any man , who rightly understands and considers the nature of god , to hear . what there should be in either of these sayings , so much as lyable to any suspicion of an incomportance , either with reason , or with truth , cannot enter into my thoughts to imagine , or conceive . the pile of the discourse is built and i cannot but presume regularly enough upon this foundation ; that if any thing were found in those writings or books , known by the name of , scriptures , whether in the letter of them , or in any expresness of consequence from them , ( here justified or approved ) of any blasphemous importance against god , or any his attributes , it were a just ground , at least to question , whether the said writings were from god , or no . i suppose i shal not need to argue this principle , being so full of light in it self . the holy ghost himself teacheth us , that god cannot deny himselfe a : and as certain it is , that he cannot blaspheme himself , nor yet authorize , inspire , or teach any person , or creature whatsoever , to blaspheme him ; the blaspheming of himselfe being nothing else but a constructive denying of himself , as is evident . therefore what book or writing soever contains any thing blasphemous against god , i do not mean as simply reported , but as asserted and maintained in either , is not onely a just ground to question ( which yet is all i affirm in the point ) whether such a writing or book be of divine inspiration , or from god , or no : but even positively to conclude against them , that they are not . so then if there be any thing dangerous , or of suspicious consequence in either of the said passages , it must be this ; that in the former of them , i suppose , and in the latter ( constructively ) affirm , that such an unchangeablenesse of the love of god , as is mentioned in the former , and described ( in part ) in the latter , is of a blasphemous import , and repugnant to those great attributes of righteousness and holiness in god . though the latter of the said passages recited , carrieth a sufficient light in it to satisfie any man ( impartially considerate ) concerning the truth of this assertion ; yet the matter being of an high and sacred importance , i am willing and shall endeavour to give both unto your self , and others , somewhat a more full and distinct account hereof . first then evident it is , that that unchangeablenesse of the love of god , which these passages speak of , and without a supposal whereof the common doctrine of perseverance , against which i here argue , cannot be maintained , in the formal and proper notion of it supposeth , that if ever god once truly loveth a person , it is unpossible , that upon any occasions or interveniences whatsoever , he should hate him afterwards . secondly , every whit as evident it is , that such a supposion or notion as this , supposeth , that in case a person hath once , or at any time , truly believed , suppose in his youth , ( under which condition he must needs be beloved by god ) though the very next hour or day after such his believing , he should fall into wayes of sin , wickednesse , disobedience , rebellion against god , and should without repentance or remorse continue in these abominations , adding drunkenness to thirst from time to time , for . . it may be . . years together , and to his last breath , yet god all this while truly loveth him , and remaineth unchanged in this his affection towards him ; and consequently loveth him with the same love ; as great , as rich , as dear , under all these horrible pollutions , and most accursed abominations , as he either would , or could have loved him with , in case he had all this while walked in the greatest innocency , and uprightnesse of heart and life before him . now then this is that which i affirm ; that to attribute such an unchangeableness of love unto god , as this , which maketh him to love an obstinate and obdurate sinner , a worker of all manner of abominations , with the same affection wherewith he loveth a just , holy , and good man , a worker of all righteousnesse , is of a blasphemous import to those glorious attributes of his , his righteousness and holiness . for if the case were thus with god , should not the world have cause to demand ▪ with those in malachy , where is the god of judgement ? a or what is there , or can there be , of a more diametrical opposition unto righteousnesse , then equally to respect and love the most unrighteous with those that are most righteous ? or unto holiness , then to honour those that are most polluted and abominable , as much as those that are holy ? nor can you here pretend , that i wrong your doctrine of perseverance to the value of the least hair on your head , by making it a patronesse and protectrix of such an unchangeablenesse of love in god , as that now represented : because evident it is , that without such an unchangeableness supposed , the said doctrine will neither have footing nor foundation to support it . for though you and others , patrons of this doctrine , understand your selves , and be-friend your doctrine better , then to express or represent it unto the world , in those black and dismal colours , wherewith i have now drawn the pourtraicture of it , or to describe the unchangeableness of love in god , which must be the basis and pillar of it , in such tearms as it hath been described by me : yet there is nothing more pregnant and notorious , then that your soft and silken , and most tender expressions of it , being regularly , and according to the exigencie of truth , interpreted , and drawn out of these collusive involutions , amount every whit to as much , or more in deformity and a theologicalness of notion , as any expressions used by me do import . for certain it is ( nor do i remember that i ever met with a denial of it , amongst the greatest defenders of your faith , in the point of perseverance ) that he that truly believeth , may possibly fall , and that within a very short time after this his believing , into the greatest and foulest sins that the nature of man is lightly incident into , as drunkenness , adultery , murther , envy , malice , covetousness , oppression , idolatry , &c. yea , and from the time of his first falling into them , may continue and hold on in the practise of them for many years together , yea possibly to the very approaches of death , without repentance . onely you teach indeed , but by humane , not divine inspiration neither , that such persons ( i mean , once believers ) in case they fall into such sins , as those now mentioned , or the like , yet never miscarry in the great businesse of salvation , but by an high hand of grace from god are always brought back unto repentance before their death : however , upon the former supposition , it clearly follows , that your doctrine of perseverance cannot stand , without the rotten prop of a supposal of such an unchangeableness of love in god , which is palpably , and in the eye of a very ordinary understanding , of an highly disparaging , and blasphemous import to his righteousness and holiness . in what sence the scriptures hold forth an unchangeableness in god , and so in all his attributes , and particularly in his love , i declare once and again ( upon occasion ) in my late book of redemption , page , . and again , page , . and page , . &c. elsewhere ( as viz ▪ page , . and p. . &c. ) i demonstratively prove your doctrine of perseverance to be at open and manifest defiance also with another great attribute of god , his wisdom . yea , when i look narrowly into the purport and tendencies of this your doctrine , i cannot over-rule my thoughts , but that they will be very jealous , that it is accessary to far the greatest part of those abominations at this day raging amongst us , antinomianism , enthusiasm , familism , of the dangerous and vile opinions and practises of those called seekers , and of those bred of the dregs and retriment of all these , the ranters , and generally of all the coolings , declinings , backslidings , and of all other foul and sad miscarriages amongst professors . sir , i have looked upon you as the glory of the london ministery , and do so still , notwithstanding the contest of your judgment against mine , about the doctrine of redemption , and the questions relating hereunto . yet give him leave , who is possibly looked upon by you , as by many others , as the reproach and shame of this ministry , to say this unto you , that those two opinions , the one of a peremptory personal election from eternity , the other of a peremptory and necessitated perseverance of the saints , genuinely interpreted , do ( upon the matter ) wholly dissolve the usefulness and necessity of your ministry ; the former in relation to persons yet unconverted ; the latter , in respect of beleevers . for first , if there be a certain number of men peremptorily designed by god to salvation , all others as peremptorily excluded , what need either the one , or the other , regard either your ministry , or any other mans ? the former , shall be infallibly and irresistibly converted , and so saved , whether you or any man else , preach the gospel unto them or no . if so , fortis ubi est ajax ? where , or what is the necessity of the greatest preacher under heaven , in respect of them ? the latter , notwithstanding all the possible relief that you by your ministry can afford them , will , and must inevitably perish . yea all the good that you are capable of doing unto these by your ministry , is onely to help them deeper into hell . secondly , if those who already beleeve , shall certainly , and against all possible interveniences persevere in faith unto the end , what if the ministry of the gospel , and they , were quite parted ; they should run no hazard of losing their crown hereby . this great truth , viz. that your doctrine of perseverance frustrates the ministry in reference unto the saints , i prove at large ( and i suppose beyond all reasonable contradiction ) page . . . &c. of the book formerly mentioned : where also i tear in pieces the fig-leaf of that pretence , that the ministry of the gospel , notwithstanding the perseverance of the saints be supposed absolute and unfrustrable , is yet a means for the effecting or procuring of it . but sir , concerning the passage recited , wherein you pretend to finde so much danger , that you judge it necessary to arm your friends with a religious caveat against it , i verily beleeve , that there is scarce any page in any of those books which either you have published in your own name , or licensed for others , but i could quarrel with somewhat therein , at as good a rate of ingenuity , if i judged the ingagement worthy of me , as you have done at that passage of mine . yea and wring every whit as bad blood out of the nose of it , as you have forced out of mine . but for oversights , hard expressions , or doubtful passages in other mens writings , otherwise then for the necessary defence of those truths which god hath stir'd up my spirit to plead and protect , i have neither time , nor mind , to take any such cognisance of them . concerning my own writings , so far as i find them justifiable for matter of truth , and defensible , i shall ( god willing ) pro virili , stand up to maintain them against all opposition and detraction , as fast as i shall come to understand what exceptions are taken against them . what shall reasonably and in a christian manner , be excepted against any thing , i shall make no apology for , but with a spirit of meekness own the oversight , and onely endeavor the rectifying . in case unjust opposers shall rise up too fast , or prove too many in number for me , i must then be content to edecimate , and turne my self onely to those , that are counted pillars , and leave punies-either to share with them in such answers and satisfactions which shall be given unto them , or otherwise to take their pleasure in flying upon the wings of their own wind . sir , i cannot suspect a want of so much civility in you , as to deny water unto those for the washing of their faces , who are bemired , though casually , and by their friends : or that the publishing of these few harmless lines in order to my purgation , will be matter of offence in the least unto you . thus desiring , that the father of lights will give both to you and me , and all others that desire to serve him faithfully in the gospel of his dear son , light and not darkness , for our vision ; i take my leave , and rest yours with a perfect heart to serve you in our great redeemer , j. g. mr. joseph caryl's answer , to mr. john goodwins letter . sir , i suppose you printed and published your book with a willingnesse that it should be read and considered by all men , and knew also , that your opinion therein asserted concerning universal redemption , and falling from grace , hath been ( as still it is ) opposed by very many . for my own part i plainly professe to you , that i have ( according to my measure ) held forth and maintained the contrary doctrines , not onely before i saw your book , but before ever i saw your face ; and so i judge my self bound to do , ( as i have oppertunity ) till i see ground to change my opinion , which as yet i do not , no not by what i have found in your book . as for that particular passage of it , which you say i have stigmatiz'd with a brand of ignominy , as also caution'd my friends about it ; what you mean by stigmatizing i apprehend not : all that i have said of it , hath been but a manifestation of my dislike of it , or that it is an argument of your highest confidence , that the truth , in that point to which it relates , is on your side . now truly sir , if you call this stigmatizing it with a brand of ignominy , i know not how to take it off , notwithstanding all that you have written in vindication of it , in the letter you were pleased to send me . and whereas you intimate your purpose to print that letter , it shall ( i hope ) be no trouble to me ( unlesse for your sake ) if you do so . onely give me leave to caution you as a friend , to consider well both with your self , and with your friends . whether it be so comely or you to discover such an eagernesse in this cause , that you cannot contain your self from publishing in print , what is spoken in private discourse among friends , concerning this , or other passages of your book . the lord lead us into all truth , and teach us how to walk in love , yours in the truth to serve you , in all offices of gospel love . joseph caryl . post-script . to be read in page . line . after these words . mr. horn ? and why do you not demand of your committee-man george , ( otherwise called doctor kendal ) another of your three worthies , why he hath not as yet answered mr. baxter , who ( in your phrase ) hath charged him home to the life , or rather ( indeed ) to the death of those foppish opinions and conceits of his , which he encounters with as much ease , and with like success , as the fire doth the dryed stubble ? yea why doe not you ask your third committee-man , and champion , joseph , why he hath not answered the same mr. baxters epistle , wherein he very gravely and christianly , yet roundly and smartly enough , expostulates with him for helping into the world , and this with approbation and applause , such a book , which well deserves to be hissed out of the world with indignation ? post-script . to be read in page . line . after these words , so still . yea there are such things found , and have been discovered by others , as well as by my self , especially by mr. baxter and mr. hora , in the writings of the three additional members of your committee , which , according to the terms of your own regulation ( mentioned § . . of your letter ) render them signally unmeet for a superintendency over the press . mr. baxter well nigh all along his reply to mr. kendals digression , page after page , evinceth him to be a man destitute of the truth , void of judgement , &c. in very many things delivered by him in the said digression . and for doctor owen , mr. horn hath in a just volume discovered his incompetency in the same kind . finis . faults escaped in some copies epist. p. . l. . r. oculos p. . l. . r. failings l. ult. r. over-easie , p. . l. . r. generality . book , p. . l. . r. nathanael , p. . l. . r. creature . p. . l. . r. beacon-firers . p. . l. . r. be p. . l. . r. the . p. . l. . r. work . p. . l. . r. into p. . l. . r. black-friar . p. . l. ▪ r. presbiterian . p. . in the marg. r. errorum . immaculatumque . p. . l. ult. r. pauls . p. . l. . dele . ) p. . l. . after below r. ( l. . after strong , supply ) p. . l. ult. r. warie . p. . l. . r. to l. ult. for with , r. of p. . l. . r. if i did it not . p. . l. . r. co-adjutor . p. . l. . r. spend . p. . l. . r. ingenuously ▪ p. . l. . dele the p. . l. . after less , r. ( notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a nobis , fratres , suff cit conscientia nostra : sed propter vos etiam fama pollere debet . b in snspicione hereseos nolo quenquam esse patientem . notes for div a e- judg. . . a promissiones itaque illae 〈◊〉 pro statis praesenti rer●●● sunt 〈◊〉 gende a nunc autē , quia juxta sententiam salvatoris , volo operari cibum qui non perit , & antiquam divinorum voluminum viam , sentibus virgultisque purgare , error mihi geminus infligitur : corrector vitiorum falsarius dicor , et errores non auferre , sed serere . b — ac beatus job , qui adhuc apud latinos jacebat in stercore , et vermibus scatebat erroram , integrum , immacultumque gaudete . a pauca sunt enim quae proprie loquimur ( sc. de deo ) plura non propri● : sed cognoscitur quid velimus . aug. confes. . c. . a see the . and last chapter of my redemption redeemed . a cum et ed numero et de conditione ac differentiâ eorum , qui manu-mitterentur , curiose cavisset , hoc queque adjecit , me vinctus unquam , tortusve quis , ullo libertatis genere urbem adipis ceretur . sueton. octav. §. . a i call your request , anti-christian , because a restraint of the press is generally practised , where anti-christ hath his throne . the same engine was made use of by the late prelacy , to support their kingdom of unrighteousness . is it me●t to bring in the methods and arrifices , invented and practised by satan for the support of his tottering state and kingdom in the world , into the kingdom of jesus christ , for the establishment of this , as if it were not able to stand but upon satans legs ? a part. . p. . ▪ a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} eph. . . see master baxter . preface apologetical . pag. . and again in his prologue to mr. kendal . p. . notes for div a e- a tim. . a mal. . . a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. a. steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page . the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. a. steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page . the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. s.n.], [london? : printed in the yeare . annotation on thomason copy: "london. feb. d". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng steuart, adam. -- second part of the duply to m. s. alias two brethren. church polity -- early works to . church and state -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren.: together with certaine difficult que goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - olivia bottum sampled and proofread - olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a short answer to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren . together with certaine difficult questions easily answered ; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of , without replying , unlesse it be to purpose . a. steuart in his second part of his duply to the two brethren . page . . the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox , and tollerate a new sect , [ hee meanes independencie , and may as well say presbytery ] unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys , or some other waye , so to doe . proverb . . . the wicked is snared by the trasgression of his lips : but the iust shall come out of trouble . printed in the yeare . three of a stevart's conclvsions , with their paralells , which are added for better explanation of them ; their contradicting of themselves and their rebellious doctrine . conclusion . . pag. . the supreame ecclesiasticall judicature itselfe may fear that if they judge any thing amisse , their judgements will not bee approved , and put in execution in perticular churches ; and in all probability they are like to bee crossed [ iust as much as independents aske for , by this ensuing paralell . ] paralell . particular churches or congregations may examin the iudgements of the supreme ecclesiastical iudicature , and if they find them to bee amisse ▪ they may refuse to put them in execution , they may crosse them . conclvsion . . pag. . the civil magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the church ; hee must learne gods will by the ministers of the church who are gods ambassadours sent to him : hee must bee subject unto ecclesiasticall censures . conclvsion . . pag. . whatsoever the ecclesiasticall senate or presbiterie is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the church ; that , the civil magistrate is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the state : neither is the civil magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the state ; than the presbyterie is to put it out of the church ▪ [ exquisite poperie ; pestilent doctrine as appeares yet more clearely by this following paralell . ] paralell . if the presbytery shall think good to excommunicate king or parliament ; the civil magistrate , the people in whom the soveraign power resid●s originally , pag. . is absolved from all obedience , and bound to put them out of the civil state . a tast of a. stevart's extravagancies and contradictions in the second part of his duply to the two brethren . page . the civill magistrate [ even ] as christian , has power not to admit the true religion , to reject it , yea when it is receaved or approved , and confirmed by his secular and civill authority , to reject it and exile it . if the church bee corrupt ▪ and church officers negligent in their charge , and will not reforme it [ as the magistrate thinks good ; ] hee may command , yea compell them to do it . when the church is reformed , hee may command them , when they are negligent to bee diligent in their charge . if [ hee conceave ] they oppres any man in their ecclesiastical judgements and censures ▪ against the lawes of the kingdome , hee may desire them , yea command them to reverse their judgements ; and in case they reforme them not , [ againe ] command them , yea compel them by his civill power , to give him satisfaction , according to the lawes of the kingdome ▪ if [ hee conceave ] they derogate not from the lawes of god , [ which neither popish nor turkish magistrates will acknowledge , though their lawes bee never so contrary to the word of god . ] page . . the civill magistrate if hee follow gods word cannot grant a tolleration [ of independent churches ] without consent of the church , if hee judge it is not corrupted : [ as if the church being corrupted ; the magistrate may bee corrupt too , and tolerate what hee will . ] page . . how be it , the church compel not to subscribe ; yet the civill magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell to subscribe or to begon . pag. . what power hath the king or parliament to intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions or a tolleration of all sects ? the parliament assume no such power unto it selfe . a short answer to a. s. alias adam stewarts second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren . sir ; had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name , all the a. s'es in towne and country would never have beene able to cleare themselves ; for what you make but words of ; however , i may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for preamble to this pamphlet , as you tell us ( and is no more then requisite to justifie your own epistle ) is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes , least i bee put to a more shamefull recantation then a. s. was , and that for nothing but what charitie , as himselfe confesses , induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the apologists . give mee leave then to observe first , that pag. . . you say idolatry is a sin against the second commandment . juris naturalis & perpetui ; insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both idolatrie and heresie is such also : if so ; then it obliges all nations of the world , and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of idolatrie and heresie , which we see to bee notoriously false , and that , besides the confounding ecclesiasticall with civil power , whilest one state punishes this or that for heresie , it cannot possibly bee otherwise , ( since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession ) but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth : secondly if states and powers must punish hereticks , they are bound to punish those for such onely , who in their owne judgements are such : and if you will engage states in punishing of hereticks , and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understandings , how can you according to your doctrine , blame them for punishing gods dearest children instead of hereticks , since they tooke them to bee hereticks , and thought they had done god and you good service to punish them ? if wee may not suffer hereticks to live amongst us ; then is the parliament to blame for suffering german , french , spanish , and portugal papists or dutch brownists and anabaptists to live here amonst us , though as marchants , onely for a time ; since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits , which they bring both to the whole nation in generall , and to some in particular ; nay , the very ambassadours of what states or potentates soever of different religions , ought not to bee permitted to reside ledgers amongst us under any pretence , if this doctrine bee evangelicall : so likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize , live in turkish popish lutheran or other countreys differing from us in religion , travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall , nor keepe ambassadours there , nor bee by forrain states permitted to remain amongst them , if we would , or on any termes joine with such in wedlock ; man may by no meanes dispence herewith , if the command for punishing herecie and schisme bee naturall and perpetuall as is pretended &c. pag. . you quote out of deut. . . the man that doth presumptuously and will not hearken unto the priest , or unto the iudge , even that man shall dye ; aleadging , that there is the sa●e reason for the ministers of the new testament &c. but that wee may clearely see what dangerous consequences would follow hereupon , it may bee best to returne back unto the place in deut. . . . . . . . the text sayes ; if there arise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement between bloud and bloud , between plea and plea , and between stroake and stroake , being matters of controversy within thy gates : then shalt thou arise and get thee up into the place which the lord thy god shall chuse : and thou shalt come unto the priests and levites , and unto the iudge which shall be in those dayes and enquire , and they shall show the sentence of iudgement : and thou shalt doe according to the sentence which they of that place ( which the lord shall chuse ) shall shew thee , and thou shalt observe to doe according to all that they enforme thee : according to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee , and according to the iudgments which they shall tell thee , thou shalt doe : thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall sh●w thee to the right hand nor to the left : then follows how the man that will do presumptuously and will not hearken unto the priest ( that standeth to minister there before ●●y lord thy god ) or unto the iudg , even that man shall dye and then shalt put away the evil from israel : and all the people shall ●eare , and feare , and doe no more presumptuously : to let passe all other exceptions to as . his misapplication of this text which was directed peculiarly to the iewes , and cannot concern any other people except papists who interpret rome to bee the place spoken of , verse . which god did chuse , and the pope to bee sole supreme infallible judge , priest and levite of these dayes to bee enquired after in matter of such difficulty and moment : if this law bee of naturall and perpetual obligation , as is insinuated by saying ; there is the same reasons for the ministers of the gospel , it will follow , that upon all matter of difference whether for blood , plea , or controversie verse . though any people , even gods owne , bee never so uniustly sentenced , ty●a●●i●ally enslaved , and most antichristianly persecuted ; they must by no meanes decline such sentence all the dayes of their life , least they bee thought to do presumptuously and so be put to death : what if a good number of the great turkes subjects should have their understandings enlightned to see the captivity and bondage they are brought into ? what if god should open the eyes of papists in spaine , italy , and france ▪ to see the spirituall fornication they are ravished into , and each of these nations in a submissive godly manner humbly implore their princes both for all common priviledges of nature , and christian liberties of the gospel ; if the respective priests and iudges instead of redressing their just grievances shall say as pharaoh did , exod. . . . . t ▪ is idlenesse which makes them seeke for lawfull priviledges and christian liberties , commanding their egyption task-masters to encrease both their civil and spiritual slavery ; must they not according to as . his divinity and pollicy still suffer themselves and their posterity to continue turkish bond-slaves and antichristian idolaters , lest they be judged to do presumptuously and so be put to death ? can as . avoyd this consequence ? will the priests levites and judges appointed in these times and countries unto which as . binds them over remedilesse , give other sentence ? deut. . . surely if the case bee so , wee might well desire that god would make us jewes to whom as i said those laws were given ; or send us christian laws to govern us withall . tell me a little ; when jereboam set up two calves of gold in dan and bethel , crying out behould your gods o israel , which brought you up out of the land of egypt : . king. . . . . &c. doe you not think hee did conjure the people not to go up so farre unto ierusalem to sacrifice , alleadging from your text in deut. . . . . that it was the sentence of the priest and judges it should bee so , from which they might no whitt decline , lest they were found to do presumptuously ? doubtlesse his plea was this ; from hence hee enforced his commandment for the peoples joyning with him in worshipping his gods , his calves ; and had as good a warrant for it then , as as . has now to say , there is the same reason for the presbyterian ministers of the gospel to legitimate their own inventions , their idolatry , the . and . chapters of the first of the kings are worth reading , that beholding their own , in iereboams sinnes , and calling to minde gods judgments on him , they may in time repent , lest a worse thing befall them . but wheras you would oblidge us unrepealably to stand to whatsoever your presbyterie degree concerning us , by sacriledgiously producing and blasphemously applying those reasons and effects which were only appliable at such a time , and to such a people as god was pleased to discover doubtfull cases to , as by oracle in the mouth of the high priest , chiefe judge , or levites ; i may not forbeare to tell you that your presbiterians are now noe better southsayers then their neighbours , they must either confesse to be of the same royall priesthood with their brethren in the masse . pet. . . and so pretend no more than others , or else be out of it , and so be baals priests , if any . but that wee may clearely understand the full ground , whereupon god required obedience from the people unto the sentence of the priests judges and levites , as also a commensurate reason , why the people might not onely without scruple , but with full and entire satisfaction yeeld such obedience , as was expected from them , it may bee exceeding requisite to make search into gods originall proceedings , as well before , as after , that hee imposed his commands upon the jewes in this behalfe . first , god calls upon moses saying , that hee would send him unto pharaoh to bring his israel out of egypt . exod. . . moses excuseth himselfe unto the lord , saying , they would not beleave him nor hearken 〈◊〉 him , alledging , that the lord had not appeared unto him . chap. , . hereupon the lord furnished him with miracles from verse . . to . and . . ordering him to take aaron unto his assistance , saying , that he would bee with both their mouthes and teach them what they should say . verse , . . that aaron should put upon his heart the breast-plate of judgement wherin was vrim and thuminim , that he should beare the judgement of the children of israel upon his heart before the lord continually exod. . . lev. . . according whereunto iethro ( prophetically no doubt ) counselled moses his sonne in law not to ware out himselfe with continuall attendance of the people from morning untill evening to enquire for them of god , but that hee would provide able men out of all the people , who might judge of all smaller matters themselves , and bring the greater unto moses , who was to bee for the people to god-ward , and bring the causes unto god . exod. . from verse , . . to . and when moses was to bee gathered to his people , the lord required him to lay his hands on joshua , in whom was the spirit , that hee might bee enabled to goe in and out before the people , and stand before the priest who should aske counsell for them in all doubtfull matters . numb. . . . . . the priests and iudges being thus miraculously qualified , god commanded the people in all streights and controversies of difficulty to have recourse unto them for sentence or direction ; according whereunto they were required to yeeld absolute obedience without gain-saying or murmuring , lest they were put to death as those that did presumptuously , deut. . . to . and . . . ch. . . . sam. . . . sam ▪ . . , king. . . . king. . . with diverse others : and well they did deserve it doubtlesse , when they might see such infallible evidence in these ministeres of the lord , that it was his divine pleasure it should be so , and that for their advantage too ▪ the children of israel therefore had recourse unto them upon all occasion , and the lord kept good correspondence with them , not answering them by amphibologies , doubtfull and delusive oracles , but by discovering to them , his will his purposes and intentions about whatsoever they enquired of him . sam . . . . jer. . . amos . . judg. . . and . so on the contrary , when they tooke in hand an enterprise without asking his counsell and advice , we may observe it did not thrive with them , it proved otherwise than they desired , as when joshua made league with the gibeonites joshua . . and now not to send you againe to the jewes , though you will have much a doe to finde an other nation to which you may apply your text of deut. . . . in which the sentence spoken of , must either bee fallible , or infallible ; if fallible , then it followes that god required the people to hearken , and bee subject unto such sentences as might bee sinfull ; such as they apprehended to be unjust and sinfull ; such as were in themselves absolutely sinfull , ( for all these cases might possibly have hapned upon such a supposition ) which were blasphemy to imagine : if the sentence bee to bee presumed infallible , then questionlesse god might very justly require the people to bee subject to it and impose a law unalterable after the manner of the meades and persians , that such as would not harken to it , might bee condemned to dye , as one that did presumptuously : doe but prevaile then with your presbyters , in cortesie , to discover to us some gleanings of their prophetick spirit ; or let us see what signes and wonders god is pleased to do by their mediation , more then by other mens ; and then whosoever will not yeeld a proportionable honour and obedience to them , for my part , let artaxarxes his decree be put in execution against him , whether it be to imprisonment ▪ confiscation of goods , banishment , or death : ezra . . . in the mean time if there bee any thing of godlinesse , or understanding of a man in you , dispence with such as cannot make idolls , fall downe and worship them . pag. ▪ sayes the civil magistrate is subiect in a spirituall way unto the church , and that the church is subiect to the civill magistrate in a civill way : but what if these different judicatiories will not bee subject to each other in their respective spher's ? what if the civill magistrate will not learne gods will by the ministers of the church ? as as . sayes hee must . pag. . what if hee become heretical , schismaticall ● must he● not bee proceeded against by the utmost of church censures , to wit , excommunication ? and if hee bee not worthy to remaine in the church ; must hee not by as . his doctrine bee turned out , or cut off from the civill state ? but some perhaps will be so court affected as to say , if the magistrate will be so , who can help it ▪ w●● must suffer what we cannot remedie : 't is true we must ; but pag , . you say that whatsoever the ecclesiasticall senate or presbyterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the church ; that , the civill magistrate or senate it bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the state , since he is a nurse of the state , and keeper of the two tables : and since whatsoever power the civill magistrates have , is derived from the people ; who sayes there is no remedie against a magistrate thus offending ? are not both houses of parliament , are not millions of the people enough to do justice in such a case ? but what if the civill magistrate be without , not of the church ? can you not with paul be contented that god should judge him ? cor. . if you say 't is now too late to make such a querie , and that he was admitted into the church by baptisme so long since , will he not , think you , repent his baptisme , and co●● such little thanks as promised submission for him unto the church without his order and consent ? nay , will he not plead non-age ? you know there are many good lawes provided for relieving of the pupillage in money matters ; having then thus m●●acled the civil magistrate whilst he was in swadling cloutes , you say he must now be subject to the church ; and that if he be once turn'd out of the church , he must likewise be turn'd out of the civil state ▪ is not this the popish doctrin of l●●●ing subjects from their obedience to prince or parliament ? are we thus leap't out of the popish frying-pan into the midst of presbyterian firebrands ? but , i dare say , you●●● stagger , & deny the words , beeing laid unto your charge ; the truth is , i find by this discourse , that you haue a trecherous memory , which hath led you into such a company of unreconcileable contradictions , far worse than many theeves and harlots , but if your heart or understanding had been better than your memory , this doctrin had never issued : turn then to p● . ▪ where you say that whatsoever the presbytery may not tolerate in the church , the civil magistrate must not tolerate in the state ; then turn to p. where you say that al power is originally in the people , which makes them the supremest magistrate of al , above both king & parliament ; as king & parliament are above other inferiour and subordinate magistrates ▪ now if you know how to spel & put these together , this popish doctrin besides others will clearly arise from thence , to wit ; that if primes and magistrates become hereticks , they may be excommunicated ; if excommunicated , the subjects are freed from their obedience to them ; and the people which having al power in themselves originally , become the supremest magistrate of al , are bound to cut them off from the civill state , whether they be kings or parliaments . but let us beware of such infernal tenets , according unto which there would be found no safety , neither for prince nor parliament ; but each of them , and everie body else , all alike , be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a consistorie or synod , be thought to be the true one ( which is too great a hazard ) or else be deemed to doe presumptuously , and so loose their lives : but ch. . you say , if the church be corrupt , and the church officers negligent in their charge , and will not reforme it , the civill magistrate may command , yea , compell them to do it ; or if they will not , he may extraordinarily do it himselfe ▪ good now ; who shall here reach the civil magistrate whether the church be corruptor no ? at what time the church officers be negligent in their charge , not willing to reforme ; and when they oppresse any man with ecclesiasticall censures ? if you say the civil magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of gods word ; do you not contradict your selfe in page . and elsewhere saying , the civil magistrate must learn gods will by the ministers who are gods ambassadours sent unto him ? is it possible to reconcile the civil magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this ? nay , is it ever possible for as . to make his atonement with this present assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it , in saying the civil magistrate hath power not to admit the true church , to reject it , yea , when it is received or approved , and confirmed by his secular and civil authority , to reject it and exile it ibid ? which yet is true enough ; but do you think the synod would have taken soe great paines , and our scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood , if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their presbyterian discipline should be received or no ; or when received ▪ rest in ●uch dayly danger to bee turned out againe with shame ? is it not an ea●●y matter for the civil magistrate to say , these presbyterian churches are growne corrupt , their way of government was never apostolical and good , they ▪ tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them ▪ aiming at no reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest , benifices , and so banish them into america or some worse place ? woe would it have beene for any independent to have beene knowne to publish such theologie such heresie : page . you say how be it the church compell men not by externall vi●l●●ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements , yet the civil magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon &c. the church you say compels not externally , but the civil magistrate may : but whence hath the civil magistrate this power in church affaires ? or why may not the church use the civil externall armes in church matters , rather then the civil magistrate should e●terpose with his owne weapons in church affaires ? is it not all one , think wee , in the sight of god , for church-men , church officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a heretick , as to set a crosse a gallowes , a marke upon him , out of a tacit compact with the civil magistrate to hang him whensoever , or wheresoever he should meet with him ? if a combination of any people should thus compasse the death of any man , would they not all equally bee found guiltie ? shall a politick reservation of popish canon or civil law to keepe the clergie from the peoples odium , thus delud all christians to the end of the world ? may church-men connive ▪ approve , teach , and applaud the civil magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be hereticks by imprisonment or death ; and not as innocently as christianly bee executioners themselves ? perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners , to banish ▪ imprison or put to death ( and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the civil magistrate ; ) but this is not the poynt wee stand upon : what if a towne or principality were giuen unto a company of presbyterian clergie-men ? ( i cannot think they will refuse it ) would they in such a case imprison banish or cause hereticks to die in this their principality ? if they say ( as the pope in the same case ▪ as pilate when he crucifide iesus ▪ and bishop b●nner whilst he made so many protestane martyrs ) they may not wash their hands in the blood of hereticks ; i reply neither in the blood of civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs ▪ if they referre such judicature and executing of spirituall or civil offenders unto laymen to be their deputies within this principality of theirs ; i answere that this is but a popish eua●ion ; and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation ; must be accounted for by them ▪ as if they themselves had sat upon the bench , passed sentence , and beene executioners : if hereticks were punishable by death as murderers and traitors , i know no cause but that clergie-men ▪ if neede were , might as actually assist at execution of the one , as of the other : but if any man should expect my opinion of what these presbyterian clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a principality ; i confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of evangelicall perfection , and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it , though by a substitute , are altogether inconsistent with the ministerie of the gospel ; but to interpret the passing sentence and execution of death by such deputies or their officers , to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such deputies only , as that the said presbyterian clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived , had not even as great a share therein ▪ as if they had beene present upon the bench , is a meere popish invention and delusion . our saviour and his apostles did neither tell the magistrates that then were , that it concerned them so much more to become christians that they might compel their subjects to be so too ; nor yet gave the christians instructions , or left upon record any such order or warrant ▪ that when ever the magistrate did become christian they might constraine the people to christianity &c. but in the same pag. . you graunt these spiritual delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced , alleadging that after a sufficient conviction , it is , morally , and should be supposed that they know the truth ; or should know it ; or if they know it not , that nothing can have bl●dered them , but their owne pertinaciousnes , which cannot excuse , but rather aggravates their ●in : but what , i pray , or how much do you call sufficiently convinced ? how can any one do otherwise , than yeeld unto whatsoever you have convinced him of ▪ how can you bee infallibly assured that a man ●s sufficiently convinced , if he himselfe denyes it ? how know you which is gods ●●oure for convincing of a man ? may not you likewise possibly interpret a dulnesse of apprehension in him , or your owne want of truly and well informing him , to bee his obstinate wilfull rejecting of the truth ▪ are there not above degrees of capacity and understanding between some men , and shall such whom god and nature have made more dull or lesse ingenious in judging of presbyterian discipline or doctrin be condemned to banishment or death for these defects of nature , beleeving , or discoursing about matters of beleefe , or but opinion only ? such you say the civil magistrate may compel to subscribe , [ against their conscience ] or to bee gon : but who gives the civil magistrate this authoritie ▪ or how comes hee to know or understand them to bee hereticks ? the presbyterian clergie-men , i hope , will be no more informers than executioners ; i am sure in most ( of such as are aleadged to bee ) christian countryes , the informer is counted more infamous than the executioner , because the one does all the busines for the most part in darknesse and under board ; whereas the other exposes his actions to the publick view ▪ but why may not church officers themselves as well hang or cut the throat of such a heretick , whom they have prepared and designed for the shambles of the civil magistrats execution , by their excommunicating of him ? if the putting him to death were just , they need not use any machivillian stratagem to prevent the peoples censuring them of cruelty , or make so nice to ●owle their fingers with the blood of such as they put to death deservedly : the levites when moses required them everie man to kill his son , his brother , companion , and his neighbour , were not so scrupulous exod. . . . and why may not the civil magistrate as well excommunicate , as banish or otherwise punish any hereticks ? doe not all punishments inflicted for spiritual offences , equally become spiritual ? or is it not necessary they should be spiritual to work a spiritual effect ? doubtlesse they bee , or ought to be so ; and if hanging of a spiritual offender bee as lawfull as excommunicating of him , surely , both the civil magistrate , and the presbyterian church officers may execute him , both alike . please then to satisfie me concerning these three queries : . by what authoritie does the civil magistrate punish a heretick ? . what is it he punishes him for ? . and thirdly , vpon what ●●●all and inditement ? if the few perticular warrants upon special occasion for punishing some certain idolaters expressy poynted it in the old testament , obliged all magistrates then ▪ and ever since to do the like ; you must condemne the greatest part of godly ▪ magistrates for omitting it ▪ and if you wil ha●● extraordinary 〈◊〉 to ●●gage th●● there unto upon all ordinary 〈◊〉 you must in●er that 〈◊〉 the people of the land who have entered into the la●e solemne league and covenant are bound with one accord to assault & cut the throats of al the papists they should meet withall , without any farther proces or impeachment , just as the israelites served mattan , b●als priest after that jehoida had made a covenant between the lord , the king , and the people . king . . . secondly , for what cause does the civil magistrate punish this church offender ? were it for civil delinquency , then is he no longer a meer heretick a bare church offender ; the church would have no jurisdiction to punish him for such civil delinquency : but that you may see it was for spiritual , for church offences for which he is unjustly banished , imprisoned or put to dea●h ; it wil appear upon the third query or inquiry , that the civil magist●ate proceeds against him after an implicit manner , by passing sentence by putting him to death upon the church triall and inditement only ; or else arraignes him the second time for the selfe same offence , ( a double injurie and injustice ) which , besides , being spiritual , the civil magistrate has no cognizance , is no competent judge thereof , nor can take upon himselfe any such authority without confounding the ecclesiasticall judicature with the civil . but i must trouble your patience a little longer with an other touch upon this string , this whipcord which you graunt the magistrate to scourge your brethren withal , in confidence your selves for this benevolence shall scape scotfree , and passe for white boyes , whatever offences you commit ; this no doubt wil expiate them all , and make attonement for them though they be never so many : you say the civil magistrate may compel [ men of different opinions ] to subscribe or to be gon ; nay , you say the civil magistrate may command and compel a corrupted church and negligent church officers into a reformation ; and that even when they are reformed , hee may command and compel them by his civil power , to give satisfaction , and reverse such ecclesiasticall censures and judgements , as the civil magistrate shall apprehend to bee oppressing unto any man , or contrary to the civil lawes : tell me , is this power which you present the civil magistrate withall in spirituall matters , a lesser , lesse spiritual or efficacious power , than what you reserve as peculiar to the church ? if it bee lesse , the civil magistrate surely is much beholding to you that you are so bountifull to him of such scrapps ; that you will set him ● work ( as the egyptian task-master did the israelites exo. . . ) with such leavings and shredds of discipline , and yet expect hee should doe that for you , which all your broad sides and batteries of decrees , ordnance , and canons of excommunication &c. could not effect ; and why i pray may not the church her selfe make use of small shot as well as greater ? but if you meane really side publica , and this power which you attribute to the civil magistrate concerning spiritual offenders and offences , be greater , more spiritual and efficacious to win and gain men unto true piety and godlinesse by fining , banishing , imprisonment or death ; can you not give him in the vantage ? can you not let him have the lesser of excommunication and other ceremonious ( in comparison of civil coercive ) censures ? briefly then ; if this power which you give the civil magistrate about the church , bee a toy or trifle , bate it him , and let not so many thousand ind●pendents your brethren be longer scandalized thereat ; but if you insist still to make it of so great concernment and necessity , teaching the people that the civil magistrate must likewise bee a terrour to spiritual offenders ; assure your selfe that both magistrate and people , will likely ere long see the injustice and absurdity , of having two magistrates to punish one offender for one fault , which also may disagree , may possibly contradict each other in their sentences , resolving through the corrupted principles which you instil , that the civil magistrate has power and understanding sufficient to discipline and govern both church and state . but perhaps you 'l say there is an act of parliament , a civil law declaring heresie , or any different , from the state opinions , such as for the present are in fashion to be censurable by the civil power : i answer not without all due respect unto the lawes and such as made them , that if there be any distinction betwixt a church state and a civil state , which all christians ●itherto acknowledged , the enacting civil lawes to punish spiritual offences , is not only a soloecisme an improprietie in state , but an incroaching on the churches power , a prophaning of the keyes , and injurious to the offender , who by this meanes is punished both beyond the degree and nature of his offence . but if you remember , as i put you in mind of before ; pag. ●● , you say , whatsoever the ecclesiastical senate or presbyterie is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the church ; that the civil magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the state : but if this bee true , must not the civil magistrate joyne with the ecclesiastial in judging of heresie , schisme and all church offences ? or if , forsooth , your meaning be the presbyterial officials shall have the preheminence and passe their verdict first ; are not the civil powers obliged to passe the like implicitly , to do the same good justice whether it bee right or wrong , or else set at large , to give a different judgment , and so , ips● fact● , condemne your doctrin as arrogant and heretical ? oh that you would but ba●e us these impertinencies , these inconsistencies ▪ how many fair sheetes of paper would it have saved from fowling ? but whereas you enthraule the magistrate hereunto as nursing-fathers and mothers ; you may as well engage your nurse to knock all children on the head , because they speake not so readily or plainly as your owne , though sublimated , extracted from mercuries braine : and yet this rule of yours needs not bee so stout to admit of no exceptions no qualifications ; since the off-spring of fornication or adultrie are forward imps , and forwardnes a character of such imps , though otherwise undiscovered to the world : but for the text in esa. ● . . which propheside that the king● of the gentiles should become nursing fathers and their queens nursing mothers unto the church : mean you by their fighting for it ? by their cruel persecuting or tormenting christians ? 't is clearly by submitting themselves unto the churches spiritual yoake , by whose example their subjects might bee encouraged to do the like , of their owne free accord and godly disposition , without the least cullour of compulsion , in that the blessed spirit in the end of the same verse , brings for a reason of these kings and queens administring to the church , that they shall not be ashamed that waite for him ? now there would want a just capacity in them of being ashamed , for waiting on the church , or on christ the head thereof , if they were constrayned to wait . pag. . you say an ecclesiastical judicatore is nothing else but a certain n●mber of men endowed with an authoritive power according to gods word to judge of church ●usinesses according to gods glorie , and the weak of the church ; or in a word , the representative church of one parish , ●l●sse province , nation or of all the world : but where meet you with any such chimera of an ecclesiastical indicatorie in all the word of god ? where find you such an authoritive power as is by you insinuated ? where find you that it would be either for gods glorie , or the churches weale it should be so ? and last of all , where find you that a certain nomber of ecclesiasticall men , may be the representative church of the whole world ? though you rack and torture the th . and all other acts of the apostles by all the ecclesiasticall judicatories and authoritative powers which you can muster up , you will never bee able to get so much as a distinguishable eccho from them to this purpose : however , please your owne imagination ; erect as many consistorial babels as you will ; hammer out what decrees your selves think good ; and if you can , with a good conscience , tell us , wee may do well if wee observe them : but goe no farther ; since the church of jerusalem ( which you will , i beleeve , acknowledge your only president for assemblies ) did noe more ; and yet there were present there , apostles inspired men ; whereas if there be any thing else in the very best of your ecclesiasticall judicatories , as you call them , besides such infirmities a● are common to you , with any other nomber of your brethren , 't is more than all the world beleeves ; and therefore blame them not if they cannot run ●udwink'd with you into limbo , purgatorie or hell , since the way to heaven is too straight for men of implicit faith , blind zeale , orignorant devotion ( which are the best fruites your presbyterian disciplin can produce ) to light upon : and besides the manifold weighty exceptions which have been made already , and may yet bee farther multiplide , to prove that to bee no synod or ecclesiastical judicatorie in act. . tell mee , good sir , whether if they will make that a president ; the assembly which sits now at westminster may not according to the same grounds send their synodal decrees into germany , france , spaine , italie and other pretended christian countries , as well as they of jerusalem did into syrio , cilicia , who had noe r●presentatives in jerusalem , that we heare of , at the making of those decrees ? and by consequence , any certain nomber of men who have but confidence ●nough , and the civil sword to fight for them , ( else they will bee thought to say and do a● little to the purpose as their neighbours ) may take upon them to be an ecclesiastical judicature , the representative church , and so condemne the whole world into spirituall captivity , because their phansies tell them it is for gods glory and the churches weale it should bee so ? but suppose that antioch , syria and cilicia were willing to receive and yeeld obedience unto the decrees which were made by the church of jerusalem where there were present inspired apostles ; must this needs oblige all other churches now to do the same towards such as have no more infallibility than their brethren ? especially whether they will or no ? were not this to hang the christian libertie of the whole church militant upon the arbitrary proceedings of some few perticular congregations only ? good sir consider of it . to the exceptions which are justly alledged against the peremptorinesse of some ecclesiastical synods and assemblies which think they may parallel their own decisious with those of the apostolical church of jerusalem act. . which were infallibly certaine of the holy ghosts assistance , or else might possibly have erred , and consequently seduced all christians unto the end of the world , which would bee blasphemy of the greatest magnitude to imagine ; you aske wherefore may not every perticular minister say it seemeth good to the holy ghost and me ? to which i answer , that your ministers and you too , may bee rash in saying so , as you are in other matters : who can hinder you ? but must all the world bee mad or sottish to beleeve you ? because you are rash to say you know not what ? you say , that what seemeth good to the holy ghost , should likewise seeme good to all ministers ; i say so too ; but not contrariwise ? which rests on you to prove , or not require obedience as though the holy ghost were in your bosom , were at your beck : it is true , that whatsoever the church does rightly bind or loose on earth , is infallibly confirmed in heaven ; but that upon this presumption , every a s. a synod or assembly may take upon them to bind and loose , such as are not of their congregation prescribing both disciplin and doctrin unto their brethren , according to their owne imaginations ; much lesse expect that others should take their decisions to be oracles , and themselves little god almighties ; is a character of such high floane conceitednes and presumption , as since the creation was never equalized by any , except the son of the morning , lucifer himself es. . . . surely if god should say of these men ( as he did ironically of adam ) behold they are becom like us ; they can make new scriptures , new religions ; they are like enough to take him at his word , still soothing themselves in their fond attempts , until with adam they were excluded paradise : you think you may say it seemeth good to the holy ghost and you ; and what if i should graunt you may possibly in some sence ▪ say so unto your own heart with a good conscience ? must your conscience therefore become a rule , a yoake to other mens ? and if the blessed spirit should at any time be are witnes unto your spirit , or unto the spirit of a whole parliament and synod , what were this to the spirits of other men ? must not they waite with patience untill the blessed spirit bee pleased to visit their spirits likewise , before they can joyne with yours or the assemblies spirit ? but if the synods determination of this or that controversie should seeme good unto the holy ghost , as the churches decrees of ierusalem did ; must they therefore bee imposed upon the country , the whole world ? is not this to equalize your synodal canons with those decrees of the apostolical church of ierusalem , and so make scripture of yours as well as theirs ? is not this to adde to scripture ? nay , to alter it ? for adding to it is ipso facto altering , and it is said thou shalt not adde thereto ? deut. . . revel. . . can you or any synod say they are , or will be at any time , at their pleasure infallibly assisted by the holy ghost ? if not ; why doe you take so much upon you ? but you will say , you fast and pray ; you mean and hope well ; may not a companie of tinckers and coblers say the like ? but you are more wise , learned , noble , and therefore think it fitting that others should yeeld to your determinations ; rather than you to such as are rustick , illiterate , and obscure ; this in curtesie , may bee granted you , in part , that is , the not submitting your consciences to independents ; they seeke nothing lesse , beeing still willing to expect and pray for you with all long suffering and patience : what postumate dispensation then since ▪ the apostles leaving us , have you , not to doe the like ? they are the presbyterian doctors whose asses must passe for trumpeters , and whose geese are swans ; whose war a● must be thought better , and payde for deerer than any of their neighbours ; whatever they say must be accounted seraphical ; and mechanicks , all lay-men wave their owne reason and religion whilst they worship their's : 't is true , that jesus does tacitly commend nathaniel for beleeving in him , because he heard him only say , that hee saw him under the fig-tree ; yet withall he tels him that hee should see greater things than those ioh. . . that is , hee should see that , which would be a full and just ground of a higher degree and measure of faith in christ : in like manner , paul when he falls upon intergatories with the iewes his brethren after the flesh saying , how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation ? he tells them withall that it was such a salvation as first began to be preached by the lord himselfe , and afterwards was confirmed unto us by them that heard the lord , god bearing witnes thereunto both with signes and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the holy ghost hebr. . . . . from whence it followes , that wee may now much lesse beleeve new gospels , new doctrins which are not evident in scripture within the reach of our own capacities , and apprehensions ; or upon slender grounds , such as may possibly deceave us ; or upon any other lesse grounds than what are aboundantly able to satisfie both the strongest and weakest reasons and understandings of those from whom faith is required . it is said in pauls epistles to the ephesians that christ gave some to be apostles , some prophets , evangelists , pastours and teachers for the perfecting the saints , for the worke of the ministerie , for the edifynig of the body of christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith ; some whereof we find to have been more immediatly and largely gifted than the rest , as apostles prophets and evangelists , to whom in their rare indowm●nts and power of miracles , wee do not know any to have succeeded since the apostles dayes : but whether may wee not take the want of them as a grievous curse upon all christians with the rest of the world ever since ? whether can the gospel bee truly and throughly propagated without such infallible officers ? how can wee be assured that the gospel has beene inviolably conserved and preached unto ●● without such glorious witnesses to bare testimony thereto by signes and wonders ! how can the jewes bee certaine that they have the law and proph●ts conveyde unto them without beeing adulterated considering their severall captivities and persecutions ? who knowes whether ezra his memory might not faile him , in restoring unto them the scriptures , as is reported of him , after they were said to be almost all consumed by fire , when the chaldea●s tooke ierusalem ? sixtus senensis bibl : sanct. l. . ezra . pray , must their own or other mens reason be the handmaid to lead them through these laberinthes . wee see in genesis . that when isaack had an intension to blesse esauh ; jacob by his mother reb●ckah's counsell , having covered his hands and neck with kidskins , subtilly counterfetted himselfe to bee esauh , and so beguiled him of his blessing ▪ in the carriage whereof we see that isaack conceived it was iacob's voice , but that the hands were the hands of esauh ; whereof though he doubted , yet he suffered himselfe to beswaid that way , in regard that iacob affirmed himselfe to bee esauh ; verse . even so is it with multitudes of christians in many poynts of controversie , whilst the scriptures furnish us with testimonies which in some respect seeme to make for both sides ; however , in regard we cannot beleeve them both , i conceave a man may safely betake himself to that wherein he apprehends more evidence of the two ; and though it prove the wrong , yet god may accept of his indeavours and good intension , who did not blame isaack for thus blessing jacob through an errour , who yet since he had suspition of him by his voice , might have satisfyde himselfe concerning him , had he but felt the other parts of his body which were not counterfetted . paul likewise although he was a great blasphemer and persecuter . tim. . . act. . . . . yet he said of himselfe that hee had lived in all good conscience before god untill that day act. . . it is a very smale thing that i should bee judged of mans judgement ; i judge not my selfe , for i know nothing by my selfe . cor. . . . and rom. . . it is said hee that regardeth a day regardeth it to the lord , and hee that regardeth not the day unto the lord , he doth not regard it : hee that eateth , eateth to the lord for he giveth god thanks , and hee that eateth not , to the lord he eateth not and giveth god thanks : from all which way he gathered , that a good meaning and intention is greatly excusable before god , though it were in an erroneous way of fearing him : for all which respects the presbyterians do not only show themselves injurious in distip ●●ing , and ruling over their brethren , over whom they have no power , being freemen , free-christians equall to themselves ; but sacriledgious to gods bountifulnesse and long suffering , who like the scribes pharises hypocrites lay heavie burthens upon others , but they themselves will not put a finger to : luk. . . who streighten , if not quite dam up the way to heaven , not suffering others to enter , nor yet goe in themselves . math. . . good now let us fast or feast ; let us observe holy-dayes or not ; and so for other matters , according as gods spirit shall guide us thereunto , and not the spirit of a presbyterie , unlesse wee could see more in it than in our own . pag. . you say the supreame [ church ] iudicatorie may feare that if they judge any thing amisse , their judgments will not be approved , and put in execution with perticular churches ; and in all human probability they are like to be crossed : pray demur a little , and consider whether in these few lines you have not utterly demolished that mighty ( but imaginary ) babel of unlimmited authoritative jurisdiction which you had raised unto your classical presbyteries or superlative ecclesiastical assemblies ? doe you not here of your own accord acknowledge that in some cases , i. e. if they judge any thing amisse , the supreme church judioature it selfe may feare ●er judgements will not be approved and put in execution ( so much as ) in perticular congregations ? yea , and that in all humane probability they are like to be crossed ? since then you graunt your synods and highest church assemblies may judge amisse ; and that in such cases perticular churches may refuse to yeeld obedience ; will it not follow by undenyable consequence that such perticular churches must have power to examin and even judge the judgements of such assemblies according to their owne reasons and understandings ? and that whatsoever shall appeare to bee decreed or ordered amisse by such ecclesiastical assemblies , according to the light of their own reason and understanding which god has given them , and not to be submitted unto with a good conscience , ought and must not be put in execution by perticular congregations ? this is your owne doctrin sometimes though unawares ; for even on the top of the next page , . where you bring m. s. enquiring what should be done in case an oecumenical or general counsel erre ; you say you wil returne him answer , when hee tells you what must bee done in case the parliament should erre , or if the great sanedrin of the old testament or the councel of jerusalem had erred ; and yet you might remember to have objected thrice in this frivolous discourse of yours upon the like occasion , that quaestio non solvit qu●stionem : but do you not perceive a little spirit of perversenes in your selfe , that you can thus prevaricate ? thus play at fast and loose ? did you not just now confesse ( oh the power of truth ! that if the very supreme church judicature should judge amisse shee may feare her judgement will not be approved and put in execution by perticular congregations ? and doe you so soone boggle at the same querie afterwards ? will not this smal pittance of ingenuity reconcile you ( how fierce soever ) unto the independents ? either then recant this and such other passages ; or stand to them , and burn that confused volumne of sophistical distinctions and meere contradictions . pag. . . you say the example of the protestants in france suing for a toleration of their religion serves nothing towards the obtaining the like for independents in england : but why pray so magisteriall and peremptory ? have not the independents fought for the parliament against the cavaleers ? did they not refuse to joyn with the cavaliers in fighting against the scots ? your presbyterian disciplin had scarce been setled in scotland by civil and ecclesiastical authority , which you so much boast of in page . if independents had not done that for you which you were not able to do for your selves ? and doe you thus require them ? was there not the same reason for the scots some few yeares since to have submitted themselves unto the english service-booke , then adored by such an english uniformity , and sent , yea attempted to bee imposed upon them by the ecclesiastical authority of england ; as that the english and irish , two numerous and renowned nations , must now be subjugated by fire and sword unto a scotch directory ? surely if there be a god in heaven , or any conscientiousnesse on earth , it will never bee , or never long endure ; nescis quid serus vesper trabat : you say the protestants of france were compelled to idolatry and to bee actors in the damnation of their owne soules against the light of their consciences : and what if it be said the presbyterians professe and practise the same against the independents , against all that differ from them barely in opinion ? all the principles which concerne coercive discipline in , about , or for the church are common both to papists and presbyterians ? insted of arguments and reason , will you not say 't is false , foolish , fond , idle , ignorant , childish , currish , contradictorie , impertinent , non sence , nothing but wind and words of goodwin ? page . &c. how long will this great goliah of the presbyterians thus boast himselfe ? how long will the braying of this fowle mouth'd as . disquiet the people of god ? pack up your pedl●rs budget of such absurd distinctions abominable contradictions , unsufferable tautalogies , ( to say no worse ) and be gon , even anywhere , that we may be quit of you ; speake or write to instruction or edifying hereafter , or else hold your peace for shame of god and men : but do you not know that it shall be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrah , than for many people amongst whom christ wrought most of his miracles ? know you not that many who live and dye papists because through ignorance , ( as paul whilst he persecuted the saints . tim. . . whom god therefore had mercie on ) shall rise up in judgement against all protestants which know gods will and do it not ? doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best christians ( i say not presbyterians ) may , nay , ought never more eat flesh drinke wine , nor anything where at a brother stumbleth , is offended or made weake ? and yet if you beleeve rom. . . . cor , . . you may finde it evangelical , a little othergates , than such stuffe as you baptize with orthodox , and then think it pleaseth the holy ghost , ( because such men , such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better , ) that all the world , will they , nill they , must fall down and worship it : if independents say , they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude , and joyning in an english directory , alias a scotch common-prayer-booke ; and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or discountenancing compel them to it ; doe you not make them commit idolatrie ? are they not damned because they doubt thereof ? rom. . . can the priests in frame , the divels in hell , or presbyterians anywhere , do worse by protestants ? but you promise largely ; you say the presbyterians will not compel the independents to act against their consciences : only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences : what an agrippa-like halfe christian paradox is this ? doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling independents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted worship against their consciences , would amount unto idolatrie ? and may they not instruct their famelies , friends , brethren , and all such , who gaspe after a word of knowledge , or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline idolatrie , and worship god in sincerity and truth ? did not nature engrave it in the hearts of al men , that it is better to obey god than man ? did not the apostles for our clearer understanding resolve it when 't was made a question ? act . . are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel ? for lapping up their tallent in a napkin ? for not strengthning others after they themselves are converted ? and though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way , to let in all heresie and impiety ; have patience if i tell you the papists say the verie same for excluding protestantisme out of their dominions ; and neither you as profownd an as . as you take your selfe to be , nor all the presbyterians in the world , can say one tittle more than papists doe in this behalfe : now , wherein your divinity , your disciplin , your righteousnes exceeds not that of papists ; take it not so hainously , that independents who have not so learned christ , may not , dare not joyne with you : yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong , banishing all farther truth , left some heresies should creepe in therewith ; good now , do but discover to us a possibility how after the presbyterian rule , ( which , according to as . sayes the civil magistrate has power not to admit the true church , or to turne it out , though it had beene admitted and established by low . ) the roman church can ever be reformed , or the iewes converted to the gospel : concerning the churches of new-england , you say their independency is worse than heresie ; you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in old-england , because they will not graunt you one in new-england , and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace : but tell me a little ; how can they be secure in new-england from the omnipotency of the presbyterian disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as rome it selfe which claim 's no lesse than all the world ? ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of old-england , and that as well unto your disciplin as to your doctrin ? are their soules not worth saving ? or their country not worth living in ? the soile is thought no whit inferiour , if not better then the best in old-england ; though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables : but why should not the soules of your new-english brethren bee as deare unto you , as those of old-england ? or though your brethren of new-england should know the way to heaven of themselves ; how can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your passe , your mittimus , your peter-pence ? or why may not the old-english be thought as charitably on , or find the like favour from your over dilligent presbyerie ? but put the case you did really desire the new-english their conversion ? you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne ? if this disciplin be strictly observed ; how can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge ? what course will you take for their informing , for convincing them of this worse than heretical tenet as you call it , if to their's , and your church pollicy , they should lykewise attaine as sharp a civil sword as yours ? or put case that even your own most excellent doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited , which many have strong presumptions for , who are thought better able to judge thereof than as . himselfe , will you put your selfe in an impossibilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally , both waies compulsively ? was ever any as . so dull , so stupid , so voide both of civil and christian policie ? but what shall i say unto you , since according to your theologie , nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling ? page . you say that refusing to tolerate the independents will helpe to confirme the churches and people in the truth of presbyterian diciplin and doctrin ; that many men are led by authority , and take many things upon the trust of great men &c. phy as ! are you not asham'd thus to uncover the nakednesse of your churches ? to tell us and them that the presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust ? and if the venerable and learned assemblie , as you stile them , should not graunt a toleration of any thing but poprie or turcisme , would not your good people whom you speake of , be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof ? surely they will , unlesse they bee wiser than their anchesters , which will not be beleeved . page . you ask what power hath either king or parliament to intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions or a toleration of all sects ? and say the parliament assumes no such power to it selfe : if this bee true ; how can it settle ( not to say intrude as as . does improperly and unmannerly ) the scotch presbyterian disciplin in england , more than the independency of new-english churches ? for since the churches of scotland and new england for doctrin agree in fundamentals , differ onely in disciplin , and as as . aleadges , doe persecute all opinions but their own ; how come the new-english and scots not to be both sects alike , since as . calls the apologists a sect ? but hee saies the presbyterian government is already established in england in the dutch , french , italian and spanish churches page . and i answer that hee may as well say the popish government was setled in england , because permitted to be made use of in in the queens chappells and so many ambassadours houses , little otherwise than was the presbyterian : but if the presbyterian government bee already established , what needs all this imprecating , this conjuring of as . yet for a farther setling of it ? but if the parliament may not , as as . saies , intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions ; and since the civil magistrate as you likewise say page . if he follow gods word cannot graunt a toleration without consent of the church if he judge it bee not corrupted : why doe you not then betake your selfe to the synod , forbearing to be farther troublesome unto the civil magistrate , untill it bee at leisure to talke with you for stigmatizing of it worse than mad , corrupted by bribery , or some other way , page . unlesse it descend unto such notions only as as . arrives to : and why , i pray , must the parliament needs tolerate all as . ' ses to think they are worse than madde , corrupted with money or some other way , if they should tolerate a new sect , you mean independents , i. e. any that but differ from one another in opinion , and such are all , as will not upon any occasion say , black is white , and white is black , or seeme to beleeve any thing else implicitely ? i know your meaning , your grand and common ( more than understood ) objection ; that there is but one true religion , but one faith , one way to heaven ; and why should wee then suffer men and women to bee of so many different waies faith's and religions ? for answer hereunto i can bee contented to graunt that there is but one true religion , one true faith and way to heaven ; but who can tell mee the precise and just precincts thereof ? what mean they by one true religion , one way , one faith ? the papists , luthrans , calvinists , all episcopal and presbyterian disciplind men generally are of this opinion ; each of them , whole nations and people , damn for the most part hand over head , all other professions but his own ; and even amongst these who by compulsion they will bee sure to make as good christians as themselves , to any mans thinking but their own , how few of them notwithstanding will they allow to get into heaven with them ? would it not be wonder if this circumference , this little continent of earth , should satisfie the vast desires of such , who seeme to think , that the heavens so infinitely more capacious , were only made for them and some few of their familiars ? o the malecontednesse of such spirits ! to say nothing of mahumetans nor any sort of pagans , no nor jewes who yet were the beloved nation of the lord , who promised to make all their enemies his owne ; to say nothing neither of papists , nor millions of christians , especially in the east which never heard more of poprie , than england had of presbyterie five yeares agoe ; ( which you may say was but a little , though since too much ) would it not be a harsh sentence for men of the classicall presbyterian-way to passe , which must send hedlong to hell all lutherans , calvanists , independents with sundry other differing protestants ? perhaps you will say though they live lutherans or independents , they may die converts , or well-willers to the presbyterian disciplin and doctrin : i answer , that this is such a may-bee , that if it come not whilst they live , i 'le passe my word 't will never happen afterward : you may as well say or think they may die jewes or papists , were you not apt to flatter your selfe , or glad to say any thing , rather than by plaine argument be made appeare as if you thought , god had first made the joyes of heaven , and in the fulnesse of time sent his son to repurchase them , for your fond opinions onely to vapour in ; but in case you doe not thus reprobate all lutherans , independents and such as differ from you in opinion , allowing them a possibilitie , even whilst they live and die lutherans or independents , to find the way to heaven ; why will you then not let them goe their own way ? what if it should seeme to you the farthest way about ? may it not prove the neerest home , according to the proverb ? i am certain it must be the surest way to them that know and apprehend no other : if then you cannot possibly decipher or chaulke out unto me exactly this only true religion and way to heaven , without imminent danger of streightning or enlarging it , do not take upon you to make enclosure of it , or compell others to leaue their owne way , unlesse you could bee infallibly assured , that were a better which you put them in , or were able to make them reraration , if it prove a worse . there are two great controversies which have set both state and church on fire , about which so many pamphlets have beene scribled , and not a few continued musing untill their heads grew addle , which yet , in my slender judgement , may be fully stated in a verie few lines only : that in the civil state , is betwixt magistrate and subject ; on the one side it is alledged , that if everie soule , the whole bodie of a people or nation must be subject unto the higher powers in all cases , whether they govern justly or tyrannically , then would it rest in the magistrates breast and power to ruin and destroy the whole nation at his pleasure : on the otherside , if the people may in some case deny subjection , it must bee in such as they apprehend themselves in imminent danger of destruction ; and then it will follow , that so often as they apprehend this imminent destruction , this necessitie ; soe often they may deny subjection , which would render the higher powers obnoxious unto the bare pretentions of the people , if they did but withall alledge their feares were reall : both these i confesse are great stumbling blocks , yet the latter , as i conceive , is to be adhered unto ; because it is a greater evil , to expose a whole nation to destruction , than a magistrate only : and lest it should be thought this tenet does expose the magistrate unto the inconstancie and violence of the people ; let such remember that magistrates are gods vice-gerents and as many times it happens that some scape better , for the present , for offending god than man but pay for it with a witnes afterwards ; soe if a people shall injuriously imploy that naturall power and might , which god has given them only for their defence , against the magistrates just commands and priviledges ; god becomes so much more engag'd to vindicate them , by how much being few in nomber , in comparison of the people , they want an arme of flesh to helpe themselves . as for the church controvesie , it may bee said in behalfe of independents , that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated ; the most orthodox and rectified are equally subject to bee persecuted : on the other side , presbyterians say , that the permitting differing opinions in a state , is to open a flood-gate to all manner of heresies and schysmes : what if wee did suppose these to bee the two great rocks of offence , which in some sense were no otherwise than scylla and charibdis ; one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other ? does it not remaine then , that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences ? the latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all heresies ; the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of truth , and even a possibility of keeping out the whole truth : now , this truth is like god himself ; even verie god himselfe , invallewable ; we may not hazard the least attom , the smalest proportion thereof , for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever : what ? shall we put our selves into such a condition , that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe , unlesse the whole civil state , the men of war , the world doe see it as clearely as our selves ? that if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge , it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater ? that though we were in possession of the true religion , wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper civil sword than our owne ? this is your doctrin page . where you say the civil mgistrate though christian has power to admit christian religion ; or when admitted to exile it afterwards ; but god keepe such presbyterian principles from farther taking root in england . but if king and parliament may not force a new religion or sect , suppose presbyterian , upon the kingdome ; much lesse can the synod which neither has , nor yet pretends , as is alleadged , to use the materiall sword ? and if for matters of religion , all power originally is in christ , as you sometimes acknowledge page . how can king , parliament , or synod wrest it from him ? nay , what thinke you ? is it not secondarily in the people , as well as civil power which you affirme in the same page ? and so doubtlesse is spiritual power ; unlesse you will make god to have provided mankind better of a safegard , or libertie to defend their bodies , than their soules : if then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under christ , as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects , by what they may of civil ; how can it be thought by any one that the king parliament or synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such as . ses , should goe about to settle a n●w presbyterian scotch government , with an intention to force a conformity of the whole kingdome , three quarters whereof cannot , as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly , or for conscience sake ? page . and elsewhere , you advise the independents to quit their fat benefices ; but presbyterian know how to quit the leane benefices without your counsel : and where doe you find the independents in such fat benefices ? what if you cannot find one of them in a fat benefice ? will you not say good cause why , because the presbyterians would quickly heave them out , and get themselves ●n ? if they find any fatter than an other , and bee so liquorish ; if they regard neither flock nor the great shepheard of the flock christ jesus , but with esa●h or judas prefer . pence or a fat benefice before them both ; let them at least carry it more cau●elo●sly , and not ●●● skipping so , from one fat benefice or lecture unto a fatter , that all the world cry shame of them ; i need not name them , they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves . but prithee a. s , tell mee , do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and master-peece of thine to accuse the independents of fat benefices , that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the presbyterian rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously , obtaining such an ordnance for tithes as all the subtle invention● of antichristian bishops could never get the like ? who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie ministers out of their livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes ; and so soone as presbyterians had filld all benefices and lectures , to move , that ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ●essment● ; and is it not fitting it should bee so , think you ? that they should set and keepe the kingdome on ● fire , in ● desparate bloody civil warre , and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching , towards obtaining of a blessed peace ? i know these heathenish , jewish , popish notions of tythes , offerings , and 〈…〉 ons , were long since abominated ▪ and abolished amongst our scottish brethren ; and a. s. does well in not flattering the english presbyterians therein , lest independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him , who , it is well knowne , are not guilty of such si●oni● ; they 〈…〉 bargaine of the ministerie of the gospel , as if it were an unholy thing ; or themselves like so many coblers or shoe-makers to prostitute their labours , to them that proffer most ; they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no , much lesse at what price they themselves will , what god requires to be given for nothing , esa. . . ; they force no man to pay for that he never had , as presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances ; as if a tayl●r or hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not , would not have his wares , his service : who will , may see the bloody tenet , and iohn baptist concerning tythes more largely . pag. . you say the power of the ministerie , or ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually : but pray tell me ; can fin be sin politically , and not be fin spiritually ? now if ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge ; will it not follow , that fin so beaten down spiritually , ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically , and consequently no neede of civil power to punish it ? but to be briefe , as the title promised for me ; our saviour bids us do as we would be done to ; that is , love our neighbours as our selves , on which commandment hangs the law and prophets , math. . . and . . . and paul tels us that love is the fulfilling of the whole law ; rom. . nay our saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly father , otherwise , than as we forgive our brethren . math. . . . . now , amongst all sorts of transgressours , there is no one offendeth so highly , so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe ; or doing as hee would bee done to ; as he that persecutes , that but disturbs his neighbours welfare , because he differs from him in opinion , for cause of conscience though erroneous ; which i prove thus : every man hath so much of an athist in him , by how much he esteemes not the enjoyment of his conscience , above all enjoyments under heaven ; and though we have known many turne , some with more facility , others perhaps not without some difficulty , from popish opinions unto episcopal , and then from episcopal to presbyterial , according as either of them became more commodious , gainsome or fashionable ; yet , if athisme not having totally taken possession of their hearts , they began at any time to demur or scruple , according to the remnant of conscience which might be remaining in them ; it was never knowne that such were contented to have even these reliques of conscience persecuted or disquieted , howsoever absurd and heretical they might seeme to other men ; and therefore such as raise any manner of persecution against their brethren for conscience sake , which they could not be contented to have done unto themselves , unlesse they were very athists , must necessarily be the greatest offenders against this law of loving our neighbours as our selves , of any in the world : and although i am enforced at present to apprehend you in this gall of bitternesse , yet my prayers and hopes shall be , that with the apostle cor. . . . it may be only said hereafter , that such were you once ; but you are now enlightned ; you are washed ; you are sanctify'de ; which god graunt in his good time and pleasure . twenty six difficult qvestions easily answered concerning a toleration of differing opinions . quest . . is it not the greatest presumption for a man to bee overswayde with his owne opinion , when others for the most part submit themselves to be governed by most voyces ? ans no : but far more presumptuous are they , who not content to injoy quietly their own opinions , proceed in compelling others to joyn with them therein , which yet may possibly bee as erroneous as other mens . q. . is it not the greatest hazard for men to build their faith upon their own private interpetations contrary to the decrees of synods and established lawes of kingdomes ? an. no : because broad is the gate which leadeth to destruction , and narrow is the path which leadeth to salvation ; though many bee called , few are chosen ; and every man must be saved by his own faith , not by the faith of parliaments or synods . q. . is it not great indiscretion to bee led away by a mans private reason and understanding contrary to the judgement and sense of many , and those perhaps the wise and learned ? an. no : because a man is to bee guided by his owne reason in all things and at all times ; and it would be a double errour , a sin against the holy ghost , not only to erre , but also to erre against his own reason and understanding . q. . may it not seeme singularity for some one , or a few inferiour people , to be totally governed by their own judgements and opinions , when the whole nation is uniforme ? an. no : because there is no mean betwixt beeing governed by a mans own reason , or that which is his implicitly , his ignorance . q. . is it not an ungodly thing to suffer men to be of any religion ? an. no : for both our saviour , his apostles and the primitive christians did the same , neither is it in the power of flesh and blood to hinder it . q. . is it not the most unseemly sight to see the people of one citty run scambling from their parishes to . conventicles where so many several doctrins are taught ? an. no : but far more monstrous and abominable in the eyes of god , for people of . severall opinions for feare or favour to assemble and joyn together hypocritically in one way of worship or church discipline . q. . but may wee not yeeld conformity of the outward man as a matter of great decencie and order in such cases which wee doe but doubt of , not certainly know to be forbidden ? an. no : because it makes us hypocrites , twofold more the children of the divel than we were before , and worse than they , who , yet unjustly , did overpresse us ro conformity . q. . ought we not then at least to keepe our different opinions and religion unto our selves in obedience to the civil magistrate that co●maunds it ? an. no : because it is better to obey god than man ; and christ sayes we must not feare them who can kill the body only ; bidding his disciples speake that in the light which he had told them in darknesse , and on the house tops what he had told them in the eare , affirming that he would deny whosoever should bee ashamed or deny him ; act. . . mat. . . . marke . . . tim. . . q. . if jesuited papists and other subtle hereticks be suffered , will they not likely seduce many unto their erroneous by-pathes ? an. though a toleration of erroneous opinions may gaine some to sathan , yet truth being therewith permitted to be published and improved , will in all probability , not only gain so many more to god ; but any one thus won to god , unto his truth , is worth thousands of those that fall from it , or rather from the seeming profession which they made thereof . ioh. . . q. . but may not the multiplying of heresies stifle or expel the truth , like as the abounding of tares and weeds often choake the wheat , and for this cause not be permitted ? an. though it seeme so to many at the first , yet our saviour in the parable of the tares math. . teaches us a quite contrary doctrin , and forbids [ heresies ] the tares to bee pull'd up before [ the day of judgment ] the the harvest verse . . least the wheat [ the children of the kingdome true professours ] verse . . bee therewith rooted up . q. . is it not wonderful extravagant that men & women should have a latitude to yeeld obedience to no manner of disciplin or doctrin than what they themselves list ? an. no : unlesse you will have them obliged to yeeld unto whatsoever disciplin and doctrin others list , though they neither understand nor know it . q. . but may it not likely prove a subvertion of the civil state whilst such scrupulous people may upon all occasion pretend out of conscience to deny obedience to the civil powers ? an. no : for such as are truly conscionable in gods , though but supposed work , and seruice , are also more exact and conscientious in rendring all due obedience unto man , unto the lawes and magistrate , not only for feare , but more for coscience sake . q. . may not diversity of opinions cause dissentions or breach of love in a country or cyttie ? an. no : but rather the contrary , whilst the civil magistrate countenanceth all alike and each man finds his neighbour not only permitting , but in some manner assisting him out of love , in such a way to heaven as he apprehends to be the only true way . q. . is it not equally impossible for a church-society as for a cytie to continue long without a government ? an. yes : if you meane spirituall government with its spirituall relations ; for as a church society is spiritual ; so must bee the government in all relations and respects . q. . but do we not by dayly experience in all places and houses find the independents wrangling with the presbyterians about church controversies ? an. no : but rather the contrary ; for if you marke it well , you may see they are still the presbyterians who generally begin first to find fault , and pick quarrells with the independents opinions , not the independents with the presbyterians . q. . may not the permitting men to teach and imbrace new opinions be occasion that we quite loose old truthes ? an. no : for if all opinions be permitted , the true ones must necessarily be included . q. . but is it fitting then for everie man to be of what religion he will ? an. yes surely ; and far better so , than to bee of whatsoever religion an other will have him to be of , since one of them must necessarily fall out . q. . must we then suffer men to run headlong in the way to hell , if they have neither will nor understanding to prevent it of themselve● ? an. surely yes : wee must suffer what we cannot hinder . q ▪ but may it not be hindered by hindering so many erroneous doctrins to be published , which if they never heare of they cannot long after , nor beleeve in to damn themselves ? an. n : because a mans own phansie , imagination and discourcive facul●y of themselves suggest and present unto his memory variety of opinions , though not so clearly perhaps at first ; which if it bee not graunted him freely to debate , aske counsel , judge and make choice of , his condition were worse than beasts , incapable of doing either good o evil ; and such as are carried away with every wind of novelty and false doctrin , were never sound in the true doctrin , though they might seeme so before , for want of oppertunity to show the contrary . qu. . if there be but one true religion , why should we suffer above one religion in a country ? a. if there be but one true religion we ought to be the more carefull how to get and keep it in the country ; not banishing any religion which in opinion of different judges may possibly be the true one , and by such as make profession of it , ( both , as wise learned and conscientious as our selves ) is proemptorily affirmed to be the only true one . q. . is it not a pious act to compel a companie of carelesse idle people to hear a good sermon , to do a good work whether they will or no ? an. no more pious an act , then for papists to use the like compulsion towards jewes and protestants in forcing them to heare their sermons , masse , or vespers . q. . yea : but though they bee thus compelled to heare good sermons at fi●st against their wills , the power and efficacy of truth is such , as that in likelihood it will win upon their affections , and work in them afterwards a desire to heare and practise them of their owne accord . an. this is not likely ; because we do not find in all the gospel , that such unwarrantable means were ever sanctifide to produce so good effect . q. . but have we not seen it by experience , that whilst the papists in england were made go to church , many of them were converted , and dyed protestants . an. the conversion of such papists was rather to be suspected counterfeit to save their purse ; and if it had been real at any time , we must attribute it to some private illumination , or other handy-work of god , and not to such means as are so contrary , both to the doctrin and practise of our saviour and his apostles . q. . may not the civil goverment interpose to punish such church-members with whom the spiritual , by reason of their refractorines cannot prevaile ? a. nothing lesse ; since the civil state or government has no more power nor virtue to make a papist turn protestant in england , than it can prevaile to make a protestant become a papist in spaine . q. . because papists do ill in compelling protestants to heare an idolatrons masse ; may not protestants do well to force papists to heare godly sermons ? an. a protestant sermon is as idolatrous to a papist , as a popish masse is to a protestant ; and neither of them can more judge with the understanding , than see with the eyes of the other , besides that god regards only such as serve him willingly . q. . but can there be any hurt in forcing refractory people to be present ●● religions orthodox assemblies , where , if they will , they may be informed of the truth ? an. yes : . because there can come no good thereof through want of willingnes , which god only regards , in him ▪ which i● thus compelled ; and . because this [ forcing ] is a doing evil that good may come thereof , which is prohibited , rom , . . finis . the christians engagement for the gospell opened in foure sermons on part of the third verse of the epistle of jude : also, christ's approbation of maries choyce, or, a sermon preached at the funerall of mris abbott in saint stephens colman-street, london / by iohn goodwin ... goodwin, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing g estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the christians engagement for the gospell opened in foure sermons on part of the third verse of the epistle of jude : also, christ's approbation of maries choyce, or, a sermon preached at the funerall of mris abbott in saint stephens colman-street, london / by iohn goodwin ... goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ], - [i.e. ] p. printed by t. cotes for p. cole ..., london : . reproduction of original in princeton theological seminary library. "a sermon preached at the funerall of mrs. abbott ..." has special t.p. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create 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were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng abbott, -- mrs., ca. - . bible. -- n.t. -- jude i, -- sermons. funeral sermons. sermons, english -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - robyn anspach sampled and proofread - robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to the worshipfvll and much honoured john pymme esquire , sir , it is no part of my designe in this dedication , by the reflexion of smooth language , to shew you yourselfe in your glory , or to take the worke of admiring your worth , out of the hands of all the world , who are now very intent , and busie at it . if honour and approbation will pay debts , the nation ( i conceive ) is not much behinde with you , for all the service you have done it : for ( as farre as i understand ) you have scarce enemies enough , to deliver you out of the hand of that curse of our saviour , wo be to you when all men speake well of you , luk. . . i have no authority to question the singlenesse , and uprightnesse of your heart , in those notable and noble engagements , that are upon you : yet if you will plead your selfe to doe it , the security attending thereon , will beare the charges . when credit and conscience are yoked , and draw the chariot together , conscience ( oft-times ) proves dull , and heavie in the worke , and if not sometimes remembred with the goade , and put on , will suffer credit to draw all on the one side , and so lay her fellow on the wheele . it argues an high , and excellent frame of spirit where a man can follow with intensnesse of minde , things that be of good report , and yet not be over-acted with the goodnesse of the report ; but fetch the strength of that inspiration , by which hee is carried on in his motion , from the goodnesse of him that hath commanded it . the more god is interessed in our intentions , the more he is like to interest himselfe in our executions . if wee make him a stranger in the proposition of our ends , hee takes no pleasure to make himselfe knowne unto us in our prosecutions , except it be by way of opposition , and rising up against us . the royall method in great actions , to breake all difficulties , and barre off discouragements in sunder , as with a rod of iron , is to digge out of our selves as much of our earth , that is , as much of our selves as wee can come at , and fill up the pit , or empty place , with god and zeale for his glorie . the consecration of an enterprise is soveraigne against abortion , whereas to worke for a mans selfe alone , is little lesse , being interpreted , than to betray his action , and to give security to his enemies , that god shall not build with him , nor prosper him in his way : and consequently , that his labour in building shall be in vaine . the least offensive ( i am sure ) and yet withall , ( with serious and inside men ) as weightie a testimony ( as i conceive ) as can be given to your wisdome , is to speake thus in the plaine dialect of the ancient simplicity unto you , and not to spare you , as farre as the truth may doe you good . neither doe i conceive , wherein any mans worth or wisdome can do him better service , than by strengthening others to lay on himselfe to beare greater weights of this treasure , than men of an under-sufficiencie are able to stand under . the disciples themselves , were great loosers ( for the time ) by their weaknesse , in this kinde ; they wanted the sweete company , and converse of many high and important apprehensions , which ( doubtlesse ) had bin equall too ( if not much better then ) the society of so many angels , because in respect of the present infirmity of their spirits , they were as unable to beare the strength of their influence and working , as the frailty of the flesh and blood is , to abide the glory and presence of those embassadours of heaven . their gratious , and great lord and master himselfe , plainely professed this unto them : i have many things ( saith he ) to say unto you , but you cannot beare them now , joh. . . and had they not out growne this weakenesse afterwards , by meanes of that golden showre from heaven , wherein they were rained upon with the holy ghost , and with power , they had beene kept fasting from the feast of those fat things ( whatsoever they were ) , all the dayes of their lives . the reason why the world ( so generally ) drinkes old wine ( in our saviours metaphor ) which is of a lower and flatter taste , is , because their vessels are not new , and strong : and therefore not fit to have new wine ( which is of a stronger , and more lively , of a more stirring , working , and provoking spirit ) put into them for feare of breaking . wee have but the light of the moone instead of the light of the sunne , or at most , but the light of the sun , instead of the sevenfold light of seven dayes , promised esa . . . shining to us , because wee are tender eyed , and inconsiderately afrayd , lest an excellency of knowledge should undoe us . not to wrong ( in the least measure ) the rights of heaven in point of thankfulnesse , due from us , nor to quench the least sparke of the joy of our congratulations : for the blessing of knowledge powred out unto us so abundantly , above the line and measure of former ages , certaine it is , that truthes of highest importance , and which should joyne heaven and earth neerer together , and heale a great part of that deplorable distance , which yet lyeth betweene men and angels , and so advance and quicken the spirituall entercourse , and commerce betweene the two worlds , are little stirring in the world . one maine reason whereof is , because , as the disciples of christ , when they saw their dearest lord & master comming towards them upon the water , were sore afraid , and cryed out , supposing he had beene a spirit , that had appeared as an executioner of present death upon them , who yet was the glory and crowne of their security : so many in the world ( no worse affected neither , to the truth , in generall , than they were to christ ) crie out , as men out of measure troubled , at the first glimmering , and appearing of some truthes unto them , as if they were the spirits of devills comming upon the world , for the spoile and ruine of the pretious soules of men ; whereas , were they capable of their inspiration , and either did , or were but inwardly willing to know of what spirit they were , they could not but acknowledge and confesse , that they were of the dearest , and deepest , and sweetest confederacie with heaven . it was austines complaint long since : nonnulli intelligentes citius volunt exagitare , quod non intelligunt , quam quaerere , ut intelligant , & non fiunt humiles inquisitores , sed superbi calumniatores , aug. de temp. serm. . i forbeare to make english of this latine : because the party chiefly interessed , are ( for the most part ) men of the language . but sir , i consider the weight and importunitie of your present imployments , i know you are ( with your worthy assistants ) about a great and laborious cure , ( the lord prosper it under your hands ) and farre be it from mee to desire , that this should suffer in the least , through any occasion of mine . i had not presumed thus farre , but that this little piece had stucke in the birth some yeares together , and was well neere stifled , found now a way into the world , by the providence of god , and by the benigne aspect , and influence of that happy constellation , wherein your selfe shine as a starre , in much glory . and the subject of it being of that neere affinity and sympathy with the soveraigne piece of that great worke you have in hand , the rescue , and advancement of the gospell , i should ( i conceive ) have turn'd my backe upon that providence which look't mee in the face , if i should not have presented it to some of those worthies , whom god hath anointed with wisdome , grace , and power , as for the bringing of many greater , and weightier things to passe , so ( the event bearing witnesse ) for the helping forth of it also into the world . in which great and honourable assembly , i knew not one , whom rather to cast mine eye for this dedication , than on your selfe , who , as you are knowne to the whole nation , by your worth and zeale , for the things both of god and men , so have you beene knowne to my selfe , heretofore , by some more particular acquaintance : the discontinuance and decrease whereof , i impute onely to mine owne unworthinesse , and negligence in addressing my selfe unto you . i doe not in these meditations put you upon any thing ( in the maine ) but wherein you have prevented my motion , and are already home-engaged : i know you are in for the gospell , with all your heart , and with all your soule , and if with all these , with all whatsoever besides . so that you might ( in that respect ) expostulate with mee the impertinencie of this my addresse unto you , in those , or such like termes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . what neede you quicken him that maketh haste ? yet make i no question , but that of your selfe you know , how fairly to salve the seasonablenesse , and usefulnesse here of notwithstanding : in which regard , an apologie would prove the impertinency , not the dedication . i verilly beleeve , that p●●● never met with christians so abundant in the worke of the lord , but still hee exhorted them to a bound yee more . besides , though i cannot say with the confidence of an intuitive knowledge , that you meete with any secret feares , discouragements , conflicts of doubtfull thoughts , and reasonings with your selfe in the way of that contention for the truth , which now you sustaine : yet can i hardly beleeve , but that sometimes you feele the activenesse of the powers of darkenesse against you , and finde some insinuations , and grudgings , ( if not stronger , and sharper fits ) of feares touching the successe , and issue of your great undertakings . in which respect , i conceive , it should not be unseasonable altogether , to administer unto you , of those excellent comfortations and strengthenings of heaven , which the holy ghost hath treasured up in the scriptures , for such times , and occasions ( especially ) as these . the lord iesus christ himselfe , being in deepe conflict , was refreshed by the presence of an angell from heaven comforting him , luk. . . the consolations of the spirit in the word of god , administred by a hand consecrated thereunto , have sometimes beene little inferiour in the glory of their effects , to those of angelicall dispensation . i dare not undertake for any sapientiall advantage you are like to gaine for the faith , by the perusall of these few pages : i know if there bee any to be gotten , you will not overlooke it . yet give mee leave to say this : that the best and wisest mens thoughts , apprehensions , purposes , ends , intentions in their best actions , will never lye right , and straight in their bowels , nor with that ease and intimate satisfaction to their owne spirits , except they be marshalled , ranged , and composed by the hand of the spirit of god , stretched out from the scriptures . the god of grace and glory , who in your selfe , together with that worthy senate of joynt consultations with you , hath opened a doore of hope to a land and people , brought very low , and hath begun by your mouthes to breath upon the dry bones , so that there is some noyse and shaking heard already , bring them together , bone to his bone , and flesh upon them also , in due time , and cover them with a skin , and put a spirit of life into them , that they may live : and recompence abundantly into their bosome , the labours and travells , and faithfulnesse of those , whose hearts , and hands have beene , and still are lifted up to the worke , that tasting the presence , and mightie hand of god with them , they may rejoyce as strong men to runne the remainder of their race , and not faint or waxe wearie ; till the great breach bee repaired , till the throne , and kingdome of iesus christ bee lifted up on high , above the rage , power , and contradictions of those , that seeke to lay the glory of it in the dust ; till judgement runne downe like water , and righteousnesse as a mightie streame , to wash ; and carry away all the filth ; and noysomenesse of the land , till the hearts , and mouthes of all those who love the peace , and prosperitie of the nation , bee filled with joy , and gladnesse , and the faces of all that are enemies unto it , with shame , and confusion . and for your selfe , your personall honour , peace , and safety , you have an interrest in your selfe ( which sleepeth not ) in the prayers of coleman-streete decemb. the . . your worships home-devoted in the things of iesus christ l. g. to the reader good reader , it was a saying of erasmus concerning luther , that poore luther made many rich . his meaning seemes to have beene , that many were raised to great places of promotion and dignity in the church , and otherwise highly rewarded for standing up in the popes cause and quarrell against him . the saying is capable of another interpretation also , somewhat more spirituall and remote , and may have this importance ; that many taking part with , that , poore servant of god , who was fiercely assaulted on every side , and presented againe and againe to death and hell , by the sworne sides men of the pope , by this service commended themselves with termes of highest acceptation unto god , and so were enriched with abundance of his grace and favour . the gospel which in this respect may bee called poore likewise ; but the truth , glory , and power of it , are still suppressed and trampled on , by that great and strong party , the divell hath in the world , ( may in both senses be ) said to make many rich ; but in the latter , would make many more rich then it doth , if their hearts would serve them , to be engaged in so honourable a service , as to consecrate themselves , and rise up in the defence of it . the great men of the earth , who desire to ride on the world , as on a horse ( as god is said to ride upon the heavens ) and to rule , though not with god , but by themselves , yet with an opinion of ruling with god , seldome or never shew themselves more magnificent and bountifull in rewarding , never give grater wages to any workmen they imploy , then unto those that are zealous , active , and dextrous , to accommodate the gospel unto them ; and to slay the hatred and enmity that burnes betweene the truth and power thereof , and their wayes and practises with the fairest and most plausible colours of love and peace . it is peters observation concerning teachers , that such as have their hearts exercised with covetousnesse , ( and therefore are best seene in the art and method of fetching in the world apace unto them ) still forsake the right way of the gospel ( because there is little good to bee done in that way ) for such a purpose : the world will seldome give much for truth , and go astray after the way of balaam , the sonne of bosor , who loved the wages of unrighteousnesse . . pet. . . . what was balaams work for the doing wherof , he should have beene so richly and royally paid ? it was onely the cursing the people and children of god with their wayes and courses , and consequently the justifying and blessing of balack and his people in their proceedings against them . and what was this ( in effect ) but to undertake to reconcile christ and belial : and to divide christ in , or against himselfe ? balack and his rout must bee righteous and just men , and approved of god : moses and his company must be children of the curse , enemies of god , and hated of him . i beleeve the better halfe of the popes kingdome , two thirds of the triple crowne would be given to any man , that shall undertake ( and quit himselfe like a man by a semblable performance ) to overthrow the state , government , doctrines , practices of all the reformed churches by the scriptures ; but by the same labour he shall compound and reconcile the rule , government , doctrines , and practises of the sea of rome , with the gospel . wee know the base descent and pedigree of farre , the greatest part of promotions and preferments in the world : they are begotten by the base desire of an earthly greatnesse , upon an earthly greatnesse , vainely desirous of being thought to bee of the house and lineage of goodnesse . thus ( in one sence ) the poore oppressed and persecuted gospel , makes many rich in the world . againe , the same gospel , notwithstanding the povertie of it ( nay rather because of such povertie ) makes many rich ( and sad is the consideration , that it makes not many more ) in a better way . as the world gives no greater wages , of such a treasure as it hath for any worke , then for the pulling downe the truth and power of the gospel where it riseth up against them . so neither doth god open his hand wider in his way of bountie , to any service , then to the faithfulnesse of those that will labour to build them up againe , and trie it out by a deepe and solemne contestation with the world , whether light or darkenesse shall rule , whether god or baal shall bee hee . when our saviour promiseth a prophets reward , to him that receiveth a prophet , in the name of a prophet ( doubtlesse ) hee promiseth more then bare measure , even that good measure ( which he speakes of in another case , heaped up , pressed downe , shaken together , and running over . now the service or worke of a prophet ; is , as to hold forth the word of righteousnesse to the world ; so ( in speciall manner ) to hold fast the same word , to convince the gainesayers , tit. . . and not to suffer the world to destroy , elude , or make voide any part or parcell of it . so paul upon the thought and mention of that good fight hee had fought , whereby hee had kept the faith ( as hee saith ) viz. against the subtile and outragious malice of the divell , wherewith hee had inspired his angels in the world , to make all the havocke and spoyle they could of evangelicall truth , was fil'd with the hope and confidence of that his crowne of righteousnesse , which ( hee said ) was laid up for him , and should bee given him by the righteous judge at that day . tim. . . . so that if thou desirest to make something of nothing , j meane , to make the best earnings of thy times and dayes on earth ( which were they not capable of a spirituall improvement , were but as light as vanitie , as little as nothing ) there is no labour thou canst undergoe , no course thou canst runne , no service thou canst performe , either to god or men , like unto this , to stand up in thy might for the gospel , and to set thy foote by it , and so come men , come divels , come friends , come foes against it , come honour , come dishonour , come liberty , come prison , come life , come death , come heaven , come hell , to stand to the defence of it to the last haire of thy head . jt is a signe , that a man knowes not to what purpose he was borne into the world , that will suffer the gospel to receive a wound by him , or die before him . and being prevented with such an opportunity & season as is now given downe from heaven unto us , even above our expectations , and commensurable with our desires , for contending for the gospel , not to attempt the moving and removing of every stone which god hath not fastned , bee it never so hot or heavie , not to doe , not to suffer , not to speak not to pray , not to crie , both unto god and men , not to give , not to lend , not to ride , not to run , not to watch , not to studie , not to continue , not to execute , whatsoever the peace and safety thereof shall require , and to professe that wee love not , we regard not , we desire not the gospel , are but expressions of one and the same interpretation . onely j must crave leave to touch thy conscience , it shall bee gently , with one caveat about thy contending ; and then the discourse it selfe take it thee , and make thee a souldier in this warfare . when thou contendest for the gospel , let it not bee grievous unto thee to looke very narrowly , and to consider seven times over , that thou contendest for nothing of thine owne , for nothing of men , instead of the gospel , and matter of faith. it is a thing not to bee passed over in our thoughts without much sadnesse and sorrow , that there is not one of many that takes hold of shield and buckler for the truth , that stands forth with zeale to pleade the cause of the gospel , but suffers this dead flie to lie putrifying in this box of so precious an oyntment ; he is not carefull to separate the vile from the precious , but takes his owne and other mens opinions , into part and fellowship of the same defence , with that which is faith and gospel indeed . great pittie it is that darknesse should share in the priviledges of light , or that error and truth should be joyned together in the same protection . i easily apprehend how cutting and painefull it is to flesh and bloud , to see those opinions which were long since begotten and bred within them , and have for many yeeres beene tenderly nursed and cherished in their bosomes ; yea , and ( happly ) have beene their glory and reputation , in the world ; yea , and ( perhaps , that which is yet more ) part of their comfort and confidence in god , to see these ( j say ) cast out upon the dunghill , and reputed as good for nothing , but with salt hath lost the savour , to be trodden under foote by men ; cānot but be as grievous in the eyes of men , as it was to abraham to cast his sonne ismael with agar his mother out of doores . gen. . . our saviour that perfectly knew the wayes of the hearts and spirits of men , put his finger upon this sore , in that passage , luke . . no man having drunke old wine , straight way desireth new : for he saith , the old is better . mens opinions and thoughts , with their semblable practises , in matter of religion , may well be compared to wine , because they are the great cheerers of their soules and consciences . and our saviour affirming , that men that have drunke old wine , seldome , or never love to change their diet suddenly ; seemes to imply these two things , ( besides what lieth in the plaine superficies of the letter . ) first , that men that never dranke old wine , that is , that were never principled nor grounded in any way of religion at all , as that never were ingaged or interressed in their judgements touching any particular controversie in religion , may sooner be brought to drink new , i. e. may with lesse reluctation and trouble with lesse reasoning and disputing , and ( for the most part ) with lesse shame and sorrow bee perswaded to embrace and professe the truth , then those that have beene built up and comforted in a false way of religion , and beene fast tied to the wrong end of a controverted point , by their credits and reputations in the world . jn which respect that saying of epiphanius takes place : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a man had better beleeve nothing then that which is contray to the truth . secondly , that many , who are for a time , extremely opposite and averse , from entertaining better thoughts and opinions in things appertaining unto god , then their owne are , because of the newnesse and strangenesse of them , may yet in time , after they have conversed a while with them , and look'd them in the face againe and againe bee brought to relent ; yea , and espouse them , and open the bosome of their affections , judgements and consciences unto them , with joy and gladnesse . but this by the way . my advise therefore ( for the present ) is onely this ; that when thou risest up , as a man of zeale and courage , to plead the cause of the gospel , in any kinde against any enemie thereof , thou shewest thy selfe a man of wisdome and judgement also ; making a difference in thy zeale , betweene things that differ ( in their nature ) as much as light and darknesse , as heaven and earth . take heede of binding up , hay , stubble , & wood , in the same bundle of defence , with silver , gold , and precious stones . and know this , that as the apostle speakes of a knowledge amongst professors in his dayes , that was falsely so called , . tim. . . it had the name , but not the nature , worth , and substance of knowledge : so hath it beene found in all ages , that where ever the body and substance of the gospel hath come , it hath in time , still gathered much drosse and refuse , and loose matter about it ; and that not onely by the malice of enemies , but by the weakenesse and injudiciousnesse of the best friends of it , which hath still beene counted treasure too , and gone under the name of the gospel , as well as the truth it selfe . but i must not now prosecute this caution any further , i feare j have over-prefaced my discourse already . jf i have transgressed the rule of discretion , j will be sure to observe the rule of charity ( in the close ) and cordially pray for the building up in the knowledge of the onely true god , and him whom he hath sent , jesus christ by the reading of this and all other peices , consecrated to that high and glorious service . thine in all thou desirest in the lord. i. g. coleman-streete . the christians ingagement for the gospel . jude verse . that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints . chap. i. the scope and coherence together with the sense & meaning of the words cleared , and the doctrine to be handled , raised , and propounded . as david speaketh to the securitie , comfort , and joy of israel ( the church of god ) behold , he that keepeth israel shall neither slumber nor sleepe : psal . . . so on the other hand may it also be said , for the awaking of israel himselfe , ( that hee may neither slumber nor sleepe , either more or otherwise then may stand with his safety ) that hee that seeketh the destruction of israel , neither doth he either slumber or sleep : your adversarie the divell ( saith saint peter ) what ? sitteth still , or sleepeth ? no : but like a roaring lion , walketh about , seeking whom hee may dovoure . hee cannot come at all to devoure them : some keepe themselves , that the evill one toucheth them not , ( as saint iohn speaketh ) they have an eye upon him , as well as he upon them , they carefully avoid all occasions of evil : which are as it were , medium tactus to the divell : meanes without which the divell can hardly come to touch any man , in this kinde , or to fasten either pawe or teeth upon him ; the lion though he rageth and roareth never so terribly , cannot come to prey upon all the beasts in the wildernesse . § . . now , because sathan would not willingly runne thus up and downe for his living , to pick out here a man and there a man , to devoure or prey upon . hee counteth this but small gaine , and little better then losse of time , an allowance altogether unproportionable to the vastnesse of his devouring greedinesse , hee therefore spreads his nets to take whole companies and congregations of soules at once ; to destroy men by whole townes , cities , nations , and kingdomes . §. . . to bring to passe a designe of this nature , a project of such an accursed and dismall consequence as this : there is no way more direct and compendious , then to procure the fountaines of living waters ; of which all joyntly together drinke : or the bread of life upon which all feede , to bee poysoned , to convey death into the pot : this is a way of quick dispatch with the poore soules of men , if hee can procure such a project as this , to be advanced in any part of the world , where there is any necessity or occasion for him to desire to doe it ; i meane where god hath a church , or where truth of religion is planted . hee needs not now runne up and downe , seeking whom , or which man he may devoure ; he may sit still and devoure whole multitudes at once , without seeking further for them . if the waters be poysoned , the fisherman needs not be carefull of his bait , how he may deceive the fish , they will come to his hands alone , and lie dead upon the top of the waters , hee may take them up as he please . §. . . when in any place the truth of god is universally tainted with pernicious and damnable errours , the soules of men are there unto sathan , as the figge trees with their first ripe figges ( nahum the . . ) if they be shaken they will fall into the mouth of the eater : little tempting will serve to effect the ruine and destruction of the soules of those men , that have no better , no more wholsome nourishment wherewith to be fed , then either the doctrines of divels , our traditions of men . the apostles of our blessed lord and saviour jesus christ even in their dayes discovered sathan close at his worke , labouring by his agents and factors to undermine the spirituall peace and salvation of the churches of god , by corrupting those wholsome streames of saving knowledge , which in plentifull manner issued forth from the sanctuary , from jesus christ in the flesh , into the world ; and accordingly their care was both to withstand him themselves , for their times with all their power , & also to leav a deep and waightie charge behinde them upon all churches to beware of so dangerous an enemie , especially in so dangerous a machination and attempt . §. . . this very thing seems to bee the full and adequate motive that moved this apostle iude to frame and addresse this epistle to all christians wherein he might exhort and quicken them to bee very carefull to preserve the word of their peace and salvation , ( yea , indeed of the peace and salvation of the world ) to preserve it in the glorious puritie of it , that so it might continue a word of salvation , and bee as able at the last , as it was at the first , to save all their soules : ) or as he doth expresse himselfe in the words of the text . that they would earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints . §. . . for the meaning of which words ( to dispatch that very briefly ) i shall ( for the present ) onely need to shew you , first , what i conceive to bee meant by faith ; ( what the earnest contending for the faith here spoken of meaneth , wee shall see afterward : ) and secondly , what the meaning and waight of that latter clause is ( which was once delivered to the saints . ) for the word faith , it is a tearme the holy ghost useth for many purposes , and in divers significations ; onely two i finde pretenders for this place . first , by faith some understand that grace or habit of faith by which these men were justified , which indeed is the most common & proper acception . and thus the meaning would be , that christians should earnestly contend , to maintaine and make good that precious grace , wrought in the heart , upon which their eternall peace and safety depends against all that may indanger the life and power of it . §. . . secondly , this word faith is often by a figurative expression , taken for the doctrine of jesus christ , by which the grace or habit of faith is wrought in men , in an usuall form of speech , wherein the better to expresse the efficacie and vertue of the cause ; wee tearme it by the name of the effect it selfe which it produceth ; especially when the effect is great and glorious , and hath a speciall dependance upon such a cause : so that without it , it could not be produced . this is an emphaticall speech to commend the excellencie of the vertue of such a cause . as if a physitian should come to a sicke man , and bring his receipt in his hand , and shewing it to the patient , should say this to him ; here is your recovery , here is life and health for you . this kinde of speaking is the highest expression of the vertue and efficacie of that which hee administreth : so we finde that the holy ghost to commend the excellent power of the scriptures , or word of god , very usually cals them by some or other , of the names of those glorious and blessed effects which they produce , and raise in the hearts of men ; and whereby they become of infinite advantage to the world . thus iohn . . the word of god is called by our saviour , salvation : for salvation is of the iewes , that is , the word of god , ( by which the salvation of the world is effected ) is from the jewes ; as paul saith , to them were committed the oracles of god. so heb. . . how shall wee escape , if we neglect so great salvation , that is , so great meanes of salvation . so solomon . prov. . . commends wisedome to men thus : keepe her , for shee is thy life , that is , the meanes by which thou must live . thus moses concerning the doctrine that he had delivered , to the people from god , told them that it was not a vaine word concerning them ; but that it was their life : that is the onely meanes to prolong the dayes of their peace , deut. . . and so wee finde the glorious gospel , or doctrine of jesus christ , often expressed by this great and excellent effect of it ( saith : ) thus gall. . . hee who persecuted us in time past , now preacheth the faith , that is , the gospel or doctrine of faith which he destroyed . so againe ( to name no more places ) in that of paul. phil. . . a place of very neere affinitie with this in the text ; that yee continue in one spirit , in one minde , striving together for the faith of the gospel : or rather ( as the originall hath it ) ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) striving together with the faith , that is , with the doctrine of the gospel ; for this gospel it selfe strives and quarrels with the world , and paul would have the philippians to joyne with it ; and to side with it and assist it against the world , that seekes the destruction and subversion of it . §. . . i finde the former signification of the word preferred by some expositors : but there are these reasons lie strong against it ( which also make way for , and confirm the later ) first from the text it selfe . first , in the beginning of the verse , hee faith hee would write unto them about the common salvation : now the particular habituall faith of men is onely about their owne private salvation : my contending to preserve my particular grace , is little or nothing concerning the generall salvation of the church . but my contending for the maintenance of the truth of the gospel is . secondly , in the later clause of the verse , it is said ; that this faith which they are exhorted earnestly to strive for , was once given , or , as the word in the originall giveth it , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) delivered unto the saints . now justifying faith in no propriety of speech can bee said to be delivered to the saints ; such faith indeed may bee said to be the gift of god ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) but never ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) a thing delivered to the saints ; neither in any congruity of speech could be . thirdly , this sense is most agreeable with other scriptures , that speake after the same manner ; whereas the other sense that contendeth for justifying faith , can hardly be paralleld . §. . . the other clause followeth , which was once delivered to the saints . i conceive these words are added in the clause of the exhortation , as a reason or motive to presse the exhortation by ; therefore hee would have them contend for the faith , for the truth of the gospel , the doctrine of salvation ; because this doctrine was , or hath beene once delivered to the saints . that is , because god of his infinite mercie and compassion to men , did once by speciall revelation convey the same to holy men , beloved of god , chosen for that purpose , whom hee made feoffees in trust for their times , to convey it safe to their posterity ; that so it might passe from generation to generation amongst the saints , in the church of god to the worlds end : the present generation being still bound by the same bonds ( that the first immediate receivers of it from god were ) to preserve it pure and entire from all corruptions , and so to bee transmitted as a precious inheritance to succeeding generations . §. . . that particle ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , once ) may admit a double signification , and it carries a full emphasis with it both wayes . there is not any losse of the maine scope of the holy ghost , whether way we take it . first , the more usuall and familiar meaning of the word is ; by once , to understand , but one time in opposition to the word often , or more then once ; and thus the weight of the motive will bee , as if he had said , you must therefore contend for the faith , for this faith hath beene once given to the saints by god , and will be no more ; namely , by any such speciall and immediate revelation : therefore , now you have the words of eternall life , it stands you in hand with all your might to keepe them ; because , if you suffer them to bee taken from you ; there are no more christs , no more sonnes of god , to bring them downe againe from heaven ; out of the bosome of the father to the world . or , secondly , the word once signifies as much as throughly , perfectly , to purpose , sufficiently , &c as where it is said christ dyed once for sinne , the full and proper meaning of the place , is not that christ died one time for sinne , that comes off but ( coldly ) but hee died once to sinne ; that is , hee died to purpose ; his death was enough , and enough for the abolishing of sinne for ever . rom. . . and so often in the scripture elsewhere , if wee rather chuse this signification of the word ; the meaning will fall thus : you ought therefore to contend for the faith , seeing it was once delivered , that is , fully and perfectly ; yea , and peremptorily delivered by god unto the saints : so that hee meant not to deliver it the second time . as if he had said to the saints in the delivery of it , looke to it , there is the word of your peace and eternall life : there it is compleat and perfect , i meane to make no more worke of revealing it againe unto you : if you suffer it to perish , or to be taken from you ; and therefore ( faith iude ) it stands you in hand to hold it fast , though it cost you blowes : both significations i conceive would be put together , to give full weight to the place . §. . . the words thus opened , . things in generall are to be observed . first , an exhortation . secondly , a motive seconding the exhortation . the exhortation in the first words : that you contend for the faith , the motive in the later , ( which was once delivered unto the saints . ) in the exhortation we have these particulars : first , the parties exhorted ; you christians , beleevers : secondly , the duty it selfe whereunto they are exhorted ; that is , to contend , or strive : thirdly , the manner how to strive earnestly : fourthly , and lastly , the possession ( as it were ) or matter of consequence , about which they are to strive , the faith : in the later the motive pressing the exhortation . . particulars likewise . first , the author of that precious treasure for which they were so earnestly to contend ? who is not here expressed , because this is readily understood , namely god himselfe . it was god by whom this faith was given or delivered . secondly , the delivery or making over of this treasure from the author or first possessor of it , in the word ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) was given and delivered . thirdly , the parties to whom this conveyance was made , or that were infeoffed , the saints . fourthly , and lastly , the speciall provisoe , or item in the conveyance , or delivery in the word once , it was so fully and perfectly delivered , that it never needed more ( nor indeed ever should ) be delivered againe in any such manner . §. . . these particulars are sufficient to multiply points of observation ; but because wee have leasure now to prosecute but some one point ( at the most ) i therefore put those of the first generall into one , and the consent and harmonie of divine truth which they make up together , is this ? the doctrine . that it is a speciall and weightie dutie lying upon all christians whatsoever , to stand for the truth of the gospel to the uttermost of their power . remissenes and indifferencie will bee better borne at our hands , in other matters of dutie , rather than in this ; if the truth of god be invaded , or set upon by the enemies of truth ; every man in his ranke and order must come forth to helpe the lord against the mightie , against the prince of darknesse , who labours to turne this great truth of god into a lie ( and will turn it if he be let alone , ) and out of this light of the gospel , draw his owne darknesse , if hee be not withstood by men of wisedome , and resolution . cap. ii. the method of the discourse briefly propounded , with some discovery of the enemies of the truth , who occasion the maine necessity of contending first . §. . for the managing of this point to your best edification , wee shall first shew you what the occasion of this generall muster of christians throughout the world , is ; or what enemies they are that seeke to oppose and destroy this truth , what it is that imposeth upon christians this great necessity of contending for it . secondly , for more security , and fuller evidence of the doctrine ; that christians must at any hand contend for this faith , wee may call in more witnesses from the scriptures , to speake to the point . thirdly , some reasons and grounds would bee considered , which will be as so many motives to perswade , and presse the dutie upon us . fourthly , wee may consider the manner of this contention , and shew by what weapons this warrefare is to be atchieved and performed . fifthly , and lastly , conclude with some words of application . §. . , for the first , the enemies of the faith ( in this sense ) or doctrine of our salvation , in generall are two . first , sathan . secondly , wicked men . first , sathan he is an old adversarie to the truth of god , as god is to him ; these two are contrary one to another , like ephraim and mannasse , ephraim against mannasse , and mannasse against ephraim ; so gospel is against sathan , and sathan against gospel . sathan hee goes about seeking whom he may devoure ; and the gospel that goeth about seeking whom it may save and rescue out of his hand ; the gospel seekes to destroy sathan indeed , but no others , except such as are willing to bee destroyed : and as salomon saith , love death , prov. . and this destroying which sathan feares from the gospel , is the true fountaine of that implacable enmitie he beares against it : he knowes except hee can some wayes destroy it , it will destroy him . §. . . it is said , heb. . . that christ suffered death , that by such suffering , he might destroy him that had the power of death , that is , the devill ; it is a new or further destruction to the devill to bee throwne out of mens hearts , and lose his interest in the precious soules of men : this is his tumbling downe from heaven , like lightning . luke . this was a secōd heavē to him , after he was throwne downe from the third heaven , ( and the best hee was now capable of ) to bee honoured and served like the most highest in the hearts of sinfull , blind , and miserable man. now , as it was the power of god to throw him down from the third heaven ; so it was the weakenesse of god , the death of god being made man , that fetched him downe from the second heaven , out of the hearts of men . and it is as much against his nature and inclination , as tormenting a destruction to him to lose this second heaven , as it was his first ; and therefore he is said to fall from this heaven like lightning : that is , fully against his nature and inclination with the greatest reluctancie , and torture of spirit ; as it is the greatest naturall torment ( as wee may say ) to fire whose naturall inclination and motion is constantly upwards towards the circumference , to bee compelled and forced downewards towards the center ; and the more pure the fire is ( as lightning is of the purest kinde ) it includs still the greater repugnancie to the nature of it , to be forced downewards . §. . . now , if it bee the death of christ indeed that fetcheth sathan downe like lightning from this heaven , off his power and throne , that hee hath gotten in the world , yet doth it not this immediately , without some other advantage ; as it is not a bullet , or powder that batters the walles of the citie or castle at such a distance , or cuts off the lives of so many men , but by the advanrage of the enemie , or cannon : so is it this same gospel of truth , that utters , as it were , and vents the death of christ , up and downe the world in that effectuall , and saving manner , according to which it worketh ; this is as the hysope that sprinkles that bloud upon the consciences of men . §. . . so that sathans aimand project is to disable the gospel from the performance of such a service , to make it wholly unusefull for the dispencing of the death of christ , unto men in a saving way . this hee knowes well enough will be done by corrupting the truth of it , if the straight wayes and paths of it bee much perverted , and made crooked ; the holy spirit will bee grieved and take offence at it , and being a spirit of truth , will refuse to goe forth with a lie , or to worke by it , as the lord told the people by ezekiel . . they had defiled their sanctuary by the multitude of their iniquities ; defiled it , that is , made it unfit for an habitation for him , so great and holy a god ; and therefore hee would prophane it too , as hee saith in another place , that is , hee would dwell no more there , nor delight to manifest his presence any more to them there , then in any other prophane and common place in all the world : so if the gospel bee defiled with mixture of errours , and tenets , and opinions of men ; the holy ghost will loath and abhorre it , and prophane it also , and doe no more towards the salvation of men by the gospel so corrupted , then by any other prophane learning and writing whatsoever : sathan i say , knowes this better then men doe , or indeed care to doe , and therefore hee is still busie to wring and wrest gospel truths : and because sathan is still the author of this worke , the primus motor . when any thing is stirr'd or shaken of the simplicitie and truth of the gospel ( though the immediate actors above ground bee men ) hence it was that paul with that severity . acts . . set a black brand upon elymas the sorcerer , calling him the child of the devill ; because he still perverted the right wayes of the lord : those in the scripture are called the children of the divell , that resemble him in his disposition and worke , ( as all confesse ) therefore it is the indeavour , and worke of sathan to oppose the truth . §. . . a second sort of enemies to the faith in this sense given ( that is , the truth of the gospel ) are all wicked men in generall , without exception . that of our saviour is not onely true here and there ; but it is a universall truth , and layes hold upon the foure corners of the world : hee that doth evill hateth the light . iohn . one said well , that verbum dei , was , lucerna ad quam fur deprehenditur ; the word of god was a light or candle , by which the thiefe was taken : no thiefe that meanes to steale , but hates the light that should discover him : true , this evill affection against the truth doth not breake out in all : some mens hearts are not so full as others ; it doth not ruine over our of every vessell , neither hath it alwayes that malignancie in it , to breake out at the lips and hands of men ; nay , it is not at all to bee doubted , but many evill men may and doe support it for carnall ends . cap. . a further discovery of the enemies of the truth . §. . but there are some sorts of wicked men that are more dangerous enemies to the truth in this sense then others , and from whom , the ruine and subversion of it is more to bee feared ; men that have ends of their owne , and not simply so ( for all carnall men have these ) but further , are much intent , and zealous in the advancement of such ends : men whose motions eccentricall to the course and motions of the gospel , and yet are active and vigorous in their motion . these are men who threaten great danger to the truth of god. §. . . the reason is cleere , because the bent , and inclination , and levell of the gospel , is in the straightest line that can be imagined to bee laid for the advancement of god , and his glory , and his christ ; and not at all for the carnall ends and purposes of men . it was never framed to serve turns . the high-way of the gospel lyeth through the midst of mens fruitfull and pleasant fields ; through their gardens , and orchards , and vineyards ; yea , many times through the middest of their palaces , and stately houses , through the middest of mens honours , and preferments , estates , pleasures , reputations , &c. and so if it bee sufferd to goe forth in its owne spirit , and take the way it selfe desireth and chuseth , it will make great spoyle of mens carnall advantages : it will tread and trample under foote , the base and unworthie ends , and designes of men ; therfore , those men that are much intent upon such ends , as these which are so incommensurable , with the great end of the gospel , and cannot be content with god alone for their portion , must needs seeke to turne the course of the gospel another way , that they may suffer no losse or prejudice by it , in their particular ends : yea , if it were possible , if the strength of their wit , and learning , and understanding , authority , and interest , in others will reach to it ; they will haile and bring over the gospel to themselves : they will force it , and compell it to plead for them , and their wayes ; they will take the words of the gospel , and dispossesse them of that spirit of truth , that lives and speakes in them , and will informe and animate them with their owne spirits , and give such senses , and meaning unto them ; as if god himselfe spake to the heart ( as the hebrew phrase is ) of their fleshly mindes , and worldly ends . §. . . thus men do labour to perswade themselves , that gaine is godlinesse , ( as the apostle speakes ) that honours , and preferments , are godlinesse : that time-serving , and pleasing men , is godlinesse ; that opposition to the truth is godlinesse , that drawing disciples after them is godlinesse ; and every carnall end and way , every carnall man makes godlinesse ; that is , to make it seeme nothing else but what doth well stand and agree with the true rule , and perfection of true godlinesse : as austins saying is , quicquid amant volunt esse veritatem : whatsoever men have a minde to , that they resolve to make truth . thus merchandise is made first of the truth ( as saint paul speakes ) next of the precious soules of men , as saint peter cleerely affirmes , speaking of covetous men in this case . . peter . . and through covetousnesse , shall they with feighned words make merchandize , or with framed words , as the word beares 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , framed for their purpose ; that is , they will glose over the truth , with such cunning and faire colourable meanings , and interpretations , so well pleasing and sutable to us , that except we bee very warie to discover them ; and what they are like to do , they will sell us into the hand of sathan and eternall death , only for a little mony w ch they shall gain , by that which will bee our destruction : namely , the corrupting the truth of the gospel , and bringing in those damnable herefies , ver . . if a mans profession be to make bowes , or hoopes , and the growth of the wood or timber , whereof hee is to make them , be straight ; there must bee violence offered unto them ( that which is straight must bee made crooked , or bending , or else the artificer cannot follow his trade , nor make a living of his art : so men having carnall and unworthy ends , if they will seeke to justifie or advance them by the scriptures , which are spirituall , and in their naturall posture lye a crosse to them , must bow and winde them this way and that , and carrie them quite beside their owne intent and meaning . cap. iv. conteyning a more full and particular discovery of the enemies of the truth . §. . if we desire more particularly to know what kindes of men these are , that are so dangerous enemies to our faith , and by whom the gospel is like to suffer great spoyle , and losse of truth . i answer , they are these and such like , as both scriptures , and histories of the church , in all ages cleerely shew . amongst the divers kindes of the principall , and those that still have beene most frequent in undermining the truth are . §. . . first , men that are of ambitious aspiring dispositions that love to have the preeminence , as we see in diotrephes ( though not alwayes , they that have preeminence , ) men that love to mount upon the high places of the earth , to see others sitting below at their feete , that cannot goe on foote , but they must ride on horse backe , as solomon speaketh ; that cannot frame to the humility of elias spirit : and gird up their loynes to runne by ahabs chariot , but must ride in chariots as well as hee ; especially , if with all they have in the meane time ; a desire to seeme but humble , and modest , and moderate men . these men must attempt to corrupt the scriptures , that they may seeme to speake for them , at least to connive at them , and to say neither good nor evill of them ; ( as baalack would have indented with balam : because , if the gospel bee permitted to speake its minde freely ; it would fill the eares of men , and perhaps the consciences of the delinquents themselves ) with out-cries , and clamours from heaven against the ambitious distempers or such men : therefore they must beate their braines , and set all their learning and bookes to worke , to finde out some other sinne that the scriptures should condemne , that so their sinne may not be thought to be araigned , and sentence given against it by god in his word . as the papists , they finde out one kinde of idolatrie , which they confesse the scriptures condemne ; but as for their idolatrie , that is none of it ; the scriptures speake not against that : we know the example of ieroboam , to set up and maintaine the kingdome to himselfe , hee stucke not to maintaine idolatrie too . §. . . the like may bee said of the second sort , ( of some affinitie with the former , and many times materially the same ) men that are resolved to serve times , and please men . that set downe with themselves , that what men soever , or what humour , or opinion of men soever raigne where they live , they will raigne with them ( as paul speakes ) they will have a share in an earthly kingdome ; these men are very obnoxious to doe injurie to the truth of god , and will hardly forbeare : we know the scriptures beare hard upon the upper formes and rankes of men in the world , and speake as if few of them were likely ever to rise higher then they are ; few that now ride on horses , but are likely to goe a foote for the dayes of eternity : not many wise , not many mightie , not many noble : . cor. . . therefore these being ( for the farre greatest part ) the reffuse of the world , and therefore enemies to the truth , and professors of it , as iames speakes of the great and rich men of the world . iames . . those that will strike in with these , and give contentment to them , and gaine indeerement with them , must make them glad with lies , hosea . . as the false prophets did with the princes of israel ; for with the truth they with never bee able to doe it : they that will know men after the flesh themselves , will make the scriptures doe as they doe , that is , know men after the flesh too , which we know they will never doe , except they bee mightily wrested ; or perverted , and so are not themselves . §. . . thirdly , another sort like to prove enemies to the truth of the gospel ; and to seeke the destruction of it , are men led away by a spirit of vaine-glory ; and being indeed little or nothing , desire to make themselves something in the world : either first in a way of popularity by seeking to please generalities , and multitudes ; and desire to fill their sailes with vulgar breath , and that all men should speak well of them : they run a great hazard also of accommodating the scriptures , and making them a nose of waxe , as the papists comparison is , to turne every way , and to turne into every mans humour , a multitude can seldome be followed or seconded , but it will bee to evill ; which made our saviour to pronounce a woe to such as whom all should speake well of , or whether : secondly , it be to draw disciples after them ; for many count this a glory to them , to have a retinue of scholers , of whom they may bee counted the head , and master founders : and there is not any greater temptation then this , to move a man to offer violence to the scripture , for paul makes this same speaking or teaching perverse things ( opinions that will not square with the truth of god ) to bee the direct and proper meanes of drawing disciples after them , acts . . §. . . a new opinion or new way , especially when it colours with the scriptures ; but doth not cotten : is as naturall a means to draw men that are injudicious and unstable , as a lock of new fresh smelling hay in a mans hand is to draw a sheep or a beast after him : i say , if it be an opinion that hath but a kinde looke from the scripture , and if the scripture draw neere to it in words , though the heart be farre from it : then is it a bait for the purpose , it will draw men by heaps and multitudes after it , the errour in it , makes it sutable to nature , and the face or visage of truth upon it , laying a religious and conscentious obligation upon men for the embracing and receiving of it ; both these meeting together make men rather mad upon it , then simply to love or like it : as generally it is to bee observed in all cases where there is a like concurrence , when there is any agreeablenesse to corrupt nature , in a thing , and withall an apprehension of religion , to set a man forwards towards the doing of it , a man is like a ship that runnes before winde and tide , hee layes all his waight and strength upon it , being like ieremies wild asse in the wildernesse , men shall weary themselves to runne after them , to thinke to turne them . it is a saying of gregory , cum vitium virtus putatur ibi culpa sine metu cumulatur , when errour is taken for truth , men offend without measure , and without feare also . §. . . a fourth fort that cannot but indanger the truth , and puritie of our faith , are men of an evill eye , as our saviour speaketh , that are of a malitious repining and emulating spirit ; either at the credit and esteeme , or the preferment of others , in any kinde above themselves ; men that cannot beare the waight of other men that stand above them , that cannot goe on foot when they see others ride , or that are prone to drinke in discontentments , or affronts , or disappointments in any kinde into the depth of their spirits , these are apt to relieve themselves , by setting up some way , or some opinion in the church , that may seeme to countenance the equity and iustice of their discontentments , or else reflect prejudice upon those from whom they are now divided in affection , men that break the band of peace , to bee at liberty , to set up error , but especially these evill distempers are found in men that are eminent in place , that have power in their hands in any kinde . : but otherwise are unworthy and base in their course of life and wayes , and so men that are farther inferiour in place , are as farre their superiours in esteeme , and in the hearts of men . i say in these this distemper of envie and discontent is of most dangerous consequence to the truth ; for now being armed with power it hath a greater incouragement and advantage many wayes ; both to set up ( and to get established ) tenets , and opinions in religion by way of opposition to such men and their wayes , whose reputations are an eye-sore unto them . §. . . fifthly , men that are given to filthie luker , ( as paul speakes ) that love the wages of unrighteousnesse , that is , gaine however comming in by a way of unrighteousnesse : the apostles in their writings speak much of these kinde of men ; these are the men that will 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as paul speakes cor. . . that is , adulterate , or embase the word of truth : it is a metaphor taken from vintners , or wine sellers , that mingle , corrupt , or badde wine with that which is good to helpe it off . the word of god , in the life , and power , and simplicitie of it , is but a drugge , a commodity that will yeeld little in the world to him that shall utter it ; it is very few mens money , except it be prepared , and the high spirit of it corrected and taken downe , that it may fall even with tempers , desires , imaginations , & intentiōs of men : therefore hee that seekes to make matter of gaine and advantage of it in the world , must accommodate and fit it to the hearts of those that are like to be his best chapmen and customers . see mic. . . mal ▪ . . §. . . sixthly , men that are not able to bee baptised with the baptisme wherewith christ was baptised ( that are not able ( or at least much unwilling ) to suffer for the truth : these in a passive way , or by way of consent many times , prove enemies to the truth , and strengthen the hands of those that doe impugne it , and are accessary to many a breach that is made upon it . thus paul tels the galatians that such as did constraine them to bee circumcized , that is , were earnest with them to yeeld to circumcision , did it not so much because in their judgements , they rather thought it so necessary , or fitting , but onely , saith hee , because they would not suffer persecution for the crosse of christ ; peter himselfe through his infirmitie first knew not christ , and againe fearing those of the circumcision ; he knew not but hee might lawfully separate himselfe from the gentiles , that is in effect build up againe the partition wall which christ had throwne downe , and yet not prejudice the truth of the gosspel : but pauls resolution and courage made straight what peters feare had made crooked ; and indeed except men will bee somewhat willing and free hearted this way towards the gospel and truth in time of danger ; there is no sinne more present with us at any time then even for those that are otherwise well-willers to the truth with a little wit and learning to shuffle away the substance of it , and to sit downe upon a distinction cleane beside it . §. . . a seventh sort that are enemies to the faith , and ( as dangerous as any of the former , if not more , are men that will needs be spirituall benefactors to religion , i meane that are superstitiously addicted , and will needs undertake to relieve the weaknesse of god with their strength , and supply the foolishnesse of the gospel with their wisedome , that will adde traditions and commandements of men , to make the precepts and commandements given by god himselfe , hold full waight and measure that god may have his due , full alowance , & heaped measure in his worship as the papists doe , and those that are leaning to that kinde of devotion ; or in a word to expresse them ( as pauls language is ) that cannot rejoyce in christ jesus , but have the prime ( at least ) of their confidence in the flesh . phil. . . men that finde more satisfaction in their consciences , in what they doe , then in what they beleeve ; and are more in doing what themselves or other men have commanded , then in doing what the great god himselfe hath commanded : this is in effect to preach another jesus whom paul never preached , . cor. . . and to set up new wayes of pleasing god , is to set up new saviours , and to set up new saviours , is to exauthorize and discharge the great saviour indeed ; for this is an essential propertie of that power of saving , which resides in him , to save alone , or to worke by himselfe alone in the salvation of any man : therefore if we offer to joyne any help to him , wee wholly destroy his power of saving ; as paul in very expresse and peremptorie tearmes tels the galathians , that if yet they bee circumcised ( namely with an opinion of any holinesse in it , to helpe them to heaven , or to accomplish their justification ) christ shall profit , or will profit them nothing . gal. . . these severall kinds of men are like to prove very dangerous enemies to the truth of religion in respect of whose opposition there lies a great necessity upon those that desire to have the truth of the gospel to remaine with them ( as paul speaks ) to contend for it , as the holy ghost exhorts in the text . cap. v. conteyning scripture demonstrations of the doctrine propounded . §. . to prove this to bee the will of god , that the people of god ought to labour and strive to bestirre themselves to maintaine and make good their faith , to preserve the gospel in the simplicitie , puritie , and integrity of it , the text being so pregnant , we shall not need to call in much aide for confirmation ; yet since they are at hand , let us have the mouthes of two or three witnesses from the word . philip. . . paul intreats them that he might heare that of them , that they stand fast in one spirit , with one minde , striving together for , or with the faith of the gospel : and so he musters their forces together , and teaches them how to put themselves in battle array , and how to march in this warfare ; he would have them stand fast in one spirit , and then with one minde or soule to strive or wrastle for the truth , in one spirit , with one minde ; that is , he would have them to be carefull to maintaine the perfectest union among themselves that might be ; ( which union will hardly stand long , or live amongst them , except it bee much made on , and carefully , and tenderly fed and nourished on all hands : ) that they would have but the same spirit to act them all ; that is , a publike spirit which inclines and moves particular men to seeke publike good , and the advancement of the whole ; and then but one minde that is but one judgement : hee would have them not onely at unity in respect of the end , but in respect of the meanes of proceeding thereunto , not distracted among themselves this way , and in this way hee wils them ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) to struggle and wrestle with their adversaries . for the truth , or as the word properly signifies , ( and before now observed ) would have them assist the truth in its owne cause , against the adversaries it hath in the world : and he would have them make a labour and a worke of it , and not any man to favour himselfe , or to keepe back any part of that power , strength , or skill , hee hath to doe service in this kinde , for so wrastlers in their games and exercises were wont to put forth themselves to the uttermost . §. . . so the church of sardis , rev. . . is charged to remember how she had received and heard , and to hold fast , and to repent , had namely that she held so weakly and loosely till now . sardis must remember , that is , looke back and call to minde with what puritie and soundnesse the gospel was first preached unto her , and she must hold fast , which is spoken as if some on the other side were pulling hard against her , and tugging to get that out of her hands , and to put something else into her hand instead of it , and shee must repent ; namely , that shee had already let something goe and did not watch , when , and how it went , that shee might have laid surer hold and kept that which was deposited , or committed in trust to her . so you see plainely ( to heape up no more testimonies from scripture ) that it is the will of god , that his people should be earnest for the truth of the gospel against all adversaries . cap. vi. wherein foure grounds or reasons of the doctrine are opened . §. . to passe from scripture confirmation , to the grounds and reasons of the doctrine , amongst many that might bee given , i shall onely insist upon these foure . first , the enemies of this truth are very many , and ( for the most part ) mightie too , and beare a tyrannous hate against it , and therefore there is no hope or possibility of preserving and keeping it without contending . it hath beene shew'd already , how sathan rageth against it , and bends himselfe and his whole might for the ruine of it , and for men of corrupt mindes and lives , if they have but the least power to make opposition ; we cānot expect but to heare of wars and rumours of warres against the truth , from them wee know the truth is not for their purpose : hee that doth evill hates the light , as our saviour saith , iohn . and yee know wherunto hatred inclines ; every man wisheth him out of the way whom hee hateth . §. . . all manner of sinne and wickednesse are in the scriptures called workes or deeds of darknesse ; as rom. . . and elsewhere not so much ( i conceive ) either because they proceede out of darknesse ; that is , want of knowledge and understanding of what is good and what is sinfull ( for there are many sinnes committed against a great light of knowledge and conscience , and are never the lesse , but rather much more the workes of darknesse for this ) neither because they end in darknesse ; that is , in the misery & destruction of the creature ( for many times this also is prevented by repentance , though i grant the naturall course and tendernes of sin is to the chābers of death ) but because sin is a cōmodity so conditioned , and so qualified , that it is never in season , never in the right kinde , never it selfe , but in times of darknesse , sins are called works of darknes , as some kinds of fruits are called sūmer fruits , because then they are ripe , and at their best for meat : and so we know it is true of severall kindes of nourishment , both of fish & flesh they are in season , wee say , in such a moneth , or about such a time of the yeere ; that is , when the season of the yeere agreeth with their temper , then are they sound and well fed , full of that wholsome moisture ; that is , fit for nourishment and agreeable with the health of the body : whereas take them at other times when they are out of season , they are weake , waterish , unwholsome , and not worth the eating : so is sinne in season onely in times of darknesse and ignorance of the truth ; because then it hath a kind of fulnesse or perfection of delight contentment , pleasure , and profit in it , the vilenesse and horror of it now not appearing , but in times of light and brightnesse of the gospel , when the shame and basenesse of it are discovered to the world ; when the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against it , when the conscience is still gauld and stung with it , now it is scarce worth the taking up , it will not beare its owne charges ; the pleasure and profit of it will not make good the shame and the dishonour that comes with it . §. . . therefore men that love iniquity and are not willing to let any sweet morsels of sin to go from under their tongues , cannot but seeke to make it in season alwayes as water is alwayes in season for fish to drinke , which is done when the light of the gospel is put out , when the spirit of godlinesse , that lives in the word of god , is quenched , when that two edged sword is taken out of the mouth of christ , and a sword of lead put instead of it ; when men are naked and unarmed , they had neede take heede of keene weapons in the hand of an enemie : swords and speares are dangerous to them ; now the workes of darknesse make men naked men , and obnoxious to all , as the apostle implies in that opposition , where hee cals an honest and vertuous life , the armour of light , rom. . . namely , because men that are harnessed herewith need feare no enemie , no weapons , no censures , reproofes , threatnings , neither from god nor men : the sword of the spirit it selfe wounds them not ; but if men bee loose , sinfull , and prophane , the arrowes of christ in the scriptures are very sharp , and will pierce them through and through , wanting the brest-plate of righteousnesse , and uprightnesse of heart to defend them . §. . . secondly , another reason to evince the necessity of this duty of contending for the faith , is mentioned in the end of the verse , and is this : because this faith hath beene once delivered to the saints . god will make no such solemne revelation of it , as hee hath done , the holy ghost shall bee no more sent downe from heaven in cloven and fierie tongues : therefore it stands the world in hand now they have it , to look to it , to keepe it safe ; a thing of moment that is not to be recovered , if once lost or gotten out of our hands , requires all care and diligence in keeping ; and as this reason hath a truth and waight in it as it concernes the world in generall ; so i thinke it may hold , if we confine it to particular nations , cities , &c. if god hath once given them the gospel in the truth , power , and simplicitie of it , and they let it goe , it will hardly bee delivered unto them the second time . §. . . if men under the law sold an inheritance , it turn'd unto them againe in the yeere of jubile , and therefore the making away of an inheritance in such a case was not so much ; but now the law of the jubile is antiquated , and out of date ; and this rich and blessed inheritance of the gospel being once sold , seldome or never becomes the possession of that nation or people that hath sold it the second time . §. . . thirdly , it must bee contended for , because it is as well , a depositum , or thing committed to our trust for others that are to come after , as a benefit or blessing to our selves : it is to be an inheritance to the children that are not yet borne ; and the present generation of christians are stil as feoffees in trust for them : the propagation of the church of christ to the worlds end , depends upon it , and the salvation of millions of soules must come out of it ; therefore they that suffer it to perish in their dayes , bring the bloud of so many soules upon their heads , as shall perish by errour and corruption of truth , or for want of the truth of that doctrine which they have suffered to fall to the ground ; yea , though god should shew mercie to after-times and heale thy crueltie by such mercie of his , in respect of others , and should by a strong hand bring backe againe the truth which thou hast betrayed and delivered into the hands of its enemies : yet this will little ease the guilt of thy sinne : thy sinne still remaines spirituall cruelty , and bloud , and damnation of soules , for the scriptures wee shall finde doe not measure any thing men doe good or evill by the event , but by the proportion that the things done beare , or congruitie they have to such and such events ( as might be shewed at large if time would permit ) to suffer the gospel to sinke or perish in the world , is to bring a sorer judgement and calamitie upon it a thousand-fold , then if that glorious and beautifull eye thereof , the sunne , should bee plucked out of the face of the heavens , and never shine more unto it . this is a third reason of the point ; the truth is to be contended for ( and that earnestly ) lest through any basenesse or cowardise this way , wee betray the joy , peace , and salvation of the generations yet to come , into the hand of the great adversarie the devill . §. . . the fourth and last reason that wee shall now propound to demonstrate the necessity of this duty , is the worth and excellencie of such a piece : the gospel is a thing worthie for which wee should earnestly contend ; neither ought it to be at all grievous unto us , though the price of its redemption should bee set never so high : many things there are which highly commend the worth of this gospel ; i shall onely touch these foure . §. . . first , the originall or descent it is from above , from heaven : the wombe that conceiv'd it , and a long time bare it , was the brest and bosome of the eternall god himselfe ; there is his likenesse and expresse image upon it . iehu thought it meete to shew the more respect to iezabel , though she had beene an accursed wicked woman , and was now dead , because she was the daughter of a king. . king. . . how much deeper and more solemne are the ingagements that lye upon the wicked , to doe all homage , and shew all height of respects to the gospel , being in it selfe lovely and beautifull beyond all admiration , and with all lineally and immediately descended from that great king ( as himselfe speakes in malachi ) who is lord both of heaven and earth ! secondly , the tendernesse and high respect , as it were , that god had of it while it was with him , hee scarce suffered it so much as to looke out into the world ; neither into heaven nor earth , but reserved it for companie and socieitie to his owne sonne , when hee should be borne , that then it should goe forth , and not before : it was a mysterie ( saith paul ) kept secret since the world beganne , rom. . . these same signata , or things sealed up and kept close , are ever matters of greatest worth . god , as well as hee loved his angels , who stand continually in his presence , and behold his face , yet kept them fasting from the knowledge and contemplation of this transcendent mystery ( at least from the cleere and perfect knowledge of it ) from the day of their creation , till the fulnesse of time came , wherein it was to be revealed in the world thirdly , the maine ingredient , whereof it is made , which runnes in every veine of it , and wherein the whole vertue and efficacie of it consist , is the bloud of christ so precious , that gold and silver are scarce foile to it . . pet. . . therefore to neglect this gospel in any kinde , not to bee jealous over it with a jealousie as strong as death , is to prophane the bloud of jesus christ , and count it as an unholy thing , and so to tread under foote the son of god himselfe . heb. . . fourthly ( and lastly ) the vertue and efficacie it selfe that rules in it : the gospel is the life of the world , deut. . . it is not a vaine thing for you , because it is your life , and through this thing yee shall prolong your dayes , &c. and salomon often speaking of wisedome still presseth this argument upon men to imbrace it , because shee is their life , pro. . . & . prov. . . alas , what were the world but a place of darknesse , and as the shadow of death , were not the light of the countenance of god in the glorious gospel of jesus christ , lift up upon it ? if this beautifull gate of the temple of heaven were shut up against it , would not the precious soules and consciences of men bee amongst lions continually ; i meane , amongst devouring feares and terrors , and horrid expectations of wrath and vengeance to come ? therefore let this reason also be considered : if wee do engage our selves never so deepe for the gospel and the truth of it , the worth and excellencie of it will beare us out , and justifie all our undertaking in this behalfe ; yea , and will condemne us with as high a hand , if it ever mis-carrieth , through any degeneratenesse , any base and accursed fearefulnesse on our parts . cap. vii . foure generall rules or directions , whereby to discover , and judge what opinions are most like to bee contrary to the truth . §. . before we come to the use and application of things that wee may not contend with our owne shadowes , or bee stricken with any panick feare like the wicked , who feare where no feare is ( as david speakes ) i. e. where no cause of feare is , or contend for that which is no part of our faith. i shall lay downe a rule or two , by which we may be able ( in part ) to discerne and judge when it is time to looke about , to lay hold , and to contend : or when sathan is about to beguile us of our faith ; let mee by the way give this one item , that our faith , or truth of the gospel , may bee two wayes indammaged , or suffer waste upon it , as the holy ghost implyeth : either first by adding or putting too ; or secondly , by incroaching or taking away : rev. . . or indeed as oft by a certaine composition of both together , by a kinde of exchange , as by either alone : for there is never any truth taken away , but there is an errour in one kinde or other , given or left in the stead of it . as the harlot pleaded before solomon . . king. . . against her fellow , that whilest shee slept , her fellow tooke her living child from her side , and laid her dead child in her bosome instead of it . so may it bee said of sathan , and of those that are the men of his right hand for such a service : they never take away any living truth from us , but they lay some dead errours in the bosome of our soules , in the roome of it : but such charging as this , is the most hatefull and accursed robbery of any other . this briefly by the way . §. . . now to give some rules of direction whereby wee may bee able to judge , whether at any time there be any speciall cause more then at an other to stand up in this case , and to practise this duty of contending for the faith ; at least they will serve to give aime , they will serve to intimate when there is speciall cause , to looke about , and to consider , and to suspect the worst ; as touching the losse and dammage of your precious faith. §. . . first , that tenet or opinion in religion , which is assaulted , and we perswaded to let go , under pretence of being an errour , contrary to our faith ; if it hath beene established by men that have beene sober minded , holy , religious , and no sinister cause , known , or suspected , which would intangle their judgement ; but probable and sufficient reasons , for the corrupting of their judgements by whom it is opposed , as time serving , covetousnesse , ambition , superstition , &c. this i say is a strong presumption , that such a tenet is the truth , and to be well considered before wee give it up , or take exchange for it , i only goe so farre in this rule as to say it is a strong presumption of truth ; because i know its possible that godly mens eyes may be held in respect of some particular truth , and other mens may be opened : and that there is no point of faith simply to be embraced upon the authoritie of men , one or other , nor simply to be rejected upon the prejudice of men : yet this difference both reason and religion will countenance , as meet to bee put between the judgement of holy and humble minded men , and of men sensuall or sinfully addicted : namely , not to reject the judgement of holy men without very apparent cause against them , nor to receive the judgement of the other , without apparent reasons and grounds for them . §. . . the equity or strength of the rule lyes in this naturall axiome , that where there is a concurrence of more causes ( and these equally efficacious ) tending to the same effect , greater likelihood there is that the effect should be produced , then where the causalitie is weaker ; as for example in going a journey where a man is ignorant of the right way , the more wayes there be to distract him , the likelier hee is to mistake them , if there bee but one way onely to mislead him . the reason given of the extraordinary heate of that season of the yeere , which wee call the dogge-dayes ; is , because there is a second cause , the starre so called , that joynes influence of heate with the sunne : so in godly men there is but one cause of mistake in matter of religion , naturall darknesse upon their judgement and understanding , which yet in part is healed ; ( whereas in other men there is that cause in the full strength of it , and besides , corrupt affections which are apt to turne men aside from the truth too . §. . . secondly , the opinion which is called for out of your hands , or that you are pressed any wayes to take exchange for , under pretence of your spirituall advantage : if it be an opinion ( as paul speakes ) according to godlinesse , that is an opinion that directly , and without any circuit of reasoning , and dispute tends to the advancement of the service and worship of god , and hath no degree of aspect upon any unlawfull or sinfull way , or end of men ; but the opinion profer'd instead of it , stands in full conjunction , with carnall ends or sensuall desires , or dispositions , that opinion is to be contēded & stood for , as for a piece of your faith : the ground of this rule is ; because , it is an essentiall character of the gospel ( and paul useth it more then once for a description thereof , to be a doctrine according to godlinesse , tim. . . that is a frame or systeime of such rules and truths , and precepts ; as godlinesse it selfe , were it such a person as had power and authoritie to make lawes for its owne advancement , would set up , and no other ; and on the contrary , a doctrine that teacheth to denie all ungodlinesse and worldly lusts . titus . . . §. . . thirdly , if the opinion which you are any wayes tempted to deliver up , and to part with , because it hath an evill report , and is rejected by great and learned men in the world , if it makes for the exaltation of him whom god would have exalted ; namely , of jesus christ , and his free grace , & for the throwing downe of such things as god would have thrown downe ; namely , nature , works , &c. whereas , the opinion you are sought to , to give entertainment unto , tends to the contrarie ; as david speaking in the psalme ( as one translation reades it , ) of wicked men , all their delight is to put downe him whom god would exalt ; and as true it is in the contrary , toexalt him whom god would pull downe : in this case the opinion is to bee contended for ; the reason of this is evident , because the gospel labours , as it were , and travels onely with the advancement of the free grace of god , and exaltation of jesus christ to the uttermost , and layes all other excellencie low in the dust before him . §. . . a fourth and last rule , which may bee tearmed the rule of ruls , in this case to direct men what is truth , and to be contended for , and that which containes the vertue and strength of many rules , is that of our saviour , iohn . . that if any man will doe his will , that is gods will , hee shall know the doctrine whether it be of god or no , or whether i speake of my selfe ; and so concerning any man besides , whether they speake of themselves or from god. if a man will doe the will of god , that is , if a mans spirit bee cleere and perfect with god , that hee pitches upon a right end , and labours with all his might for doing of the will of god , or glorifying of god ( for that is the substance of his will ) and suffers no by or base ends to defile the puritie of his heart , or intention this way , but compels all other ends whatsoever , to doe hommage and service unto this ; such a man ( saith our saviour ) shall be able to put a difference betweene doctrine and doctrine , and to discerne what closes with the truth , and what stands off from it , shall be able to taste by the spirituall eare , the words of men as the palate doth meates , for it selfe ; that is , whether they be agreeable to it or no. iob. . . §. . . this abilitie stands not so much in any depth or reach of judgement or sharpnesse of understanding , whereby a man is able to sist out truth by subtil or exquisite disputs or argumentations ; but rather in the spirituality of a mans judgement , or that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as paul calls it ) by which a man inwardly tastes and relishes both truth and errour , as many men that using to taste wine , both good and bad : and so having their sense exercised with the taste of both , can give a judgement of the one and of the other , though they be no philosophers , nor able to dispute of the nature of tastes , nor of the foure first qualities , how they are to bee tempered and compounded , to make either the one taste or the other : so a man that is of a spirituall disposition , will have a kind of inward sensiblenesse , whether an opinion pleases or sutes his spirit , or whether not ; according to that speech of the woman in the storie of the martyrs , that answered , shee could dye for the truth , but could not dispute for it ; she was as confident of truth upon her taste , as any man could be upon his judgement and depth of understanding , and willing to lay as great a wager upon it . §. . . and yet this rule is not so to be taken nor understood ; as if a regenerate or sanctified judgement were an infallible judicatory of all spirituall and divine truth ; no , it was said by one that had a preeminence this way above all his fellowes ( i conceive ) and next to his lord and master himselfe ; as well concerning himselfe , as others : wee know in part , and we prophecie in part , . cor. . . to which may be added also ( as included in them ) we judge but in part neither . and many daily and sad experiences teach us that saints on earth are not angels in heaven this way , able to put a difference betweene all light and darknesse , betweene all errour and truth : for then the whole generation should be knit together in the same minde , and in the same judgement , in all the things of god , whereas now they are little other then divided and scattered upon the face of the whole earth , about them . but the meaning of the rule is , that the simplicitie , singlenesse , and uprightnesse of the heart before god , propounding to it selfe no other end whatsoever , but such as have a perfect consistence with the will , and glorie of god ; are a rich and blessed advantage where ever they are found , to to enable a man to see and to discerne the smallest line of partition , that runnes betweene errour and truth to divide them , and that especially upon this ground , and for this reason : because , such a man hath no need of , hath no occasion to use the helpe or furtherance of an errour , in as much as the truth it selfe is abundantly serviceable and sufficient to justifie , maintaine , and beare him out in all his ends and purposes ; whereas , men that have sinister and unsanctified ends in their eye , wanting support and strength , erre from the truth ( in the native puritie and simplicitie of it ) have a strong temptation and engagement upon them ; acheronta movere , to seeke shelter and sanctuary under the wing of errour , and so to pervert and accommodate the truth , as ahabs servants would have done by the prophet michaiah , . king. . . that so it may go along with them in the way of their desires , and not prophecie evill against them . §. . . besides this , it appeareth from the scriptures ; that such men as wee now speake of , men that are most sincere , and uncorrupt in their ends , have a speciall prerogative this way given them by god , viz. of seeing god in his word and truth , with more fulnesse and cleerenesse of manifestation , then other men . matthew . . psal . . . thus much by way of direction and advice to know when there is speciall occasion , to looke about and consider , whether the truth bee not in danger , and stands in need of our helpe to defend it . cap. viii . a briefe confutation of that opinion , which teacheth that god may bee truely served , and men saved , in any religion . §. . to come to application , the use of the point is foure fould . first , for confutation , if this be the dutie of all christians to stand out & to contend so zealously , so earnestly for their faith , and truth of the gospel , and not to suffer it to bee taken from them ; then doubtlesse this treads downe the strength , and cuts the sinewes of that opinion which some have maintained that god may be truely served , and men saved in any religion whatsoever , maintained , or professed in all the world ; such mens charity is as irreligious and unsavorie , as was that of corah , dathan , and abiram , that challenged moses and aaron , for taking too much upon them ; seeing all the congregation was holy , even every one of them , and the lord among them : so say these , all the world is holy , even every nation , and every religion professed in it ; let me say this one thing , that this spirit of confusion that labours to shuffle all things together , and to destroy the excellencie of things that differ , is that spirit which the god of judgement most hateth and abhorreth . §. . . what necessity can be imagined why there should bee such striving , such wrastling , such contending , such laying hold , such ingaging mens selves for one kinde of faith , if all the faith 's the world over will serve mens truns as well ? men doe not use to trouble themselves , or put themselves to straights and difficulties for obtaining any thing , when they may have their turnes served with ease . this was the argumēt that phaaroh used to iosephs family , that they should not trouble or cumber themselves in their remove with their stuffe , because all the good of the land of aegypt was before them , and was theirs ; that so they might bee sufficiently provided for there , without further charge or trouble : so , who needs trouble himselfe , or indanger himself , or to contend for one religion , if all the world before him , or any religion hee can fall upon in it , had the like certaine safetie . this is the argument which paul likewise useth to disswade christians from eating that which was sacrificed to idols in case of offence , or likelihood of offence ; because ( saith he ) the earth is the lords , and the fulnesse of it ; as if hee should say , the lord hath meate enough for them besides all the world over , that would nourish and preserve their naturall lives and healths , as well as that which was sacrificed to idols ; and therefore there was no necessitie to presse upon the eating of that ; it had beene more tolerable if the lords provision for his family had beene all spent beside : so say i : to set up any such opinion in the church , that there may be safetie and salvation , as well in any other as in the religion of jesus christ is to destroy the necessitie of this dutie of contending for this faith. and on the contrary , to presse the necessity of this dutie , is the throwing downe of every such imaginations , whether men of this opinion , by running , or contending with god , have wrested from him any more names whereby to bee saved , so it is : sure we are , that there is given none other name under heaven , whereby to bee saved ; but onely the name of jesus christ . acts . . there have beene , and still are many names given by sathan for men to perish by eternally : but to bee saved by , there is onely one given , and that by god ( as peter affirmeth . ) cap. ix . the resolutions and practises of martyrs and confessors , both ancient and moderne , justified in an use of instruction from the doctrine . §. . secondly , for instruction , if it bee a dutie required of all christians to contend thus earnestly for their faith , then from hence we may receive full satisfaction , concerning the counsels and , resolutions of martyrs and confessors , both of ancient and later times , in suffering things grievous to be borne in all kindes ; losse of goods , friends , credit , libertie , life , and all ; in the cause and service of this their faith , many may please themselves with conceits of folly and unadvisednesse in such men , as it was a speech full of unsavorie prophanesse : that the martyrs who suffered in the dayes of queene mary dyed like fooles ; whereas indeed it is a point of the greatest wisdome in the world to doe what god hath commanded ; and the harder any commandement is , and the more contrariety it hath to flesh and bloud , so much the greater wisedome it is to obey . §. . it is not any distemper in the judgement or spirit of a man to savour the things that be of god , and not of men : bee faithfull to the death , saith our saviour to the church of smyrna , rev. . . and i will give thee a crowne of life . certainely our saviour promiseth wages in full proportion to the worke ; yea , good measure , heaped up , pressed downe , and running over : therefore there can bee no follie in accepting his conditions , but an excellencie , and depth of wisedome . to part with mens lives for nothing , to make no friend with them when they goe , to dye cowards ; this ( in scripture language ) is to dye like fooles , as in that of david concerning abner , . sam. . . dyed abner as a foole dyeth ? that is , basely and cowardly ; and to this purpose is that of our saviour in the gospel : hee that will save his life shall lose it , hee that will save it ; that is , hee that will set it downe with himselfe that he will not part with it as long as hee can keepe it ; let the occasions of heaven , and the gospel stand in never so much need of it , and call never so loud and earnestly for it , such a man ( saith christ ) takes a course wholly to lose it , to make nothing of it , and so it is true of credit , estate , libertie , and there is no way to entaile them upon our selves for perpetuitie , but only in the way , or by a deed of consecration : behold saith iames , . . we count them happie which indure ; and except wee judge and walke by the same rule , we give evidence against our selves , that we are not of the israel of god. cap. x. wherein three sorts of men are found offenders by the doctrine delivered , and reproved accordingly , with an objection answered . §. . a third use is for reproofe , if this bee a dutie bound upon the conscience of every man that cals himselfe a christian , earnestly to contend for his faith : then there are three sorts of men here to be reproved . first , such as are ignorant what their faith is , what that doctrine is , for which they ought to contend . if they contend , it must be for they know not what ; their service to god in this case cannot be any reasonable service , and therefore not acceptable to him : were it likely they would come forth in such a case , to helpe the lord against the mightie ; but little hope there is that such as these should joyne with michael in this great battle against the red dragon : if men know what their ease , and peace , estates , and credit in the world meane , and not what their faith and religion meanes ; they will never indanger the one to relieve and support the other : men are readie to speake evill of what they know not , but to suffer evill for what they know not , there is not one of a thousand will doe it . §. . . a second sort to be reproved , are such as having some knowledge of the truth , yet are of a luke-warme temper , they have no list to stir or be active in this great and solemne quarrell of the truth : loth they are to ingage themselves in the defence of it : if christ will have their service ( in deliciis ) something hee may have of them , but in costris they are not for him : deborah in her song sang concerning rubens declining , the common service in the warre against sizera , that the divisions of ruben were great thoughts of heart , iudges . . wee may say truely that the divisions of these men are unworthie and base thoughts of heart and politique and worldly-wise thoughts of heart , which prevaile with them , to decline that great and honourable service of jesus christ , and his church ; this contending for the truth . they can warre according to the flesh ( as paul speakes ) let but their health , their credits , and estates provoke them : here they are men of action , and soone up in armes ; here they will put forth themselves to the best ; here are no thoughts of heart at all to move them , to decline any such warre : but for their faith , let that be never so injuriously dealt with all , invaded , wasted , new moulded , turned upside downe , and fashioned over and over ; and let men take from , put to , exchang , the gold , silver , and precious stones of the gospel , for the wood , hay , & stuble of the doctrines of men , like gallio , they care for none of these things , there is no roome neere their hearts to lay such things as these too ; all that region is taken up with other thoughts , cares , and lusts : well , their doome is set , and the booke is opened ; it will come to passe that christ will spue them out of his mouth ; that is , will so cast them off , that they shall never be fit to bee received againe ; as that meate which is once taken downe , and not digested , but comes up againe ; no man will ever make meate of it the second time . §. . . thirdly , a third sort yet obnoxious to a deeper and sharper reproofe then these , are men that not onely refuse to contend for the truth , but bend their strength and might , wit , learning , reading , authoritie , interest , and all they can make against the truth : as all hereticks , opposers , and destroyers of the faith in all ages have done , with such as have been their abettors ; & given the right hand of fellowship to them , such as with jannes and iambres resisted mosei , laboured to suppresse the truth , and wrest it out of the hands of those who held it forth unto the world , ( by sword , by fire , and other engines of crueltie ) and desperate wickednesse . §. . . many there are that have mens persons , as iames speakes , in admiration ( yea , and opinions too ) for advantage sake , for preferment sake , men that as plato said of sophisters in his time , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men that do not so much waigh or consider what truth is , as what way or course of religion is in request : and seeme to have as many sutes in religion , as some men have of apparell , to shift and change out of one into another , as the times they live in , change or alter : as david speakes of doeg , psal . . . thou lovest all destroying , or devouring words , oh ! deceitfull tongue ; so may wee say of many , they love all rising words , all opinions that will draw preferment after them , their judgements and consciences can close without scruple with them : all such words they love , true or false ; and the truth is that , that is the best use that many make of much reading , and great learning , to furnish themselves with variety and choyce opinions ( as there is scarce any tenet or opinion in religion now held , but what may bee found to have beene held , by some heretofore ) not so much to compare and examine what is the truth , but that they may bee able to colour any erronious tenet , which best serves their turne for present advantage , with pretence of antiquitie , that so they may not once bee suspected to flatter , ( the present ) but onely to reverence and honour the former ages . §. . . but it may bee objected , that many are charged to bee enemies to the truth , who stand stiffe upon the purgation , and are ready to returne the challenge upon their accusers , with as much confidence as eliah did upon ahab , who told him that it was not he , but it was himselfe , and his fathers house who troubled israel : so , many that are accused for undermining the truth and religion , will reject the crime with great indignation , and strike through the loynes of their accusers . therefore who in this case shall bee judge where the guilt lies ? to this i answer , ( besides the rules formerly given to guide mens judgements in discerning truth . ) §. . . first of all , it is no argument at all of innocencie to disdaine a charge or imputation , as we see those iewes , iohn . . being challenged by our saviour , that they sought his life ; they rejected the imputation upon as high tearmes as might be : thou hast a divell , who goes about to kill thee ? as if the charge had not beene onely untrue , but had had as much of the venome or poyson of the lye in it , that such a quantie could not have beene cast forth , but out of the mouth of the serpent himselfe immediately , and yet for all this high language the imputation stuck close to them , and was ( and so proved it selfe in time ) most true : and so may it be in this case ; such as are most zealous in their purgation , may be deepest in the condemnation notwithstanding . §. . . secondly , if men desire to stand upon such tearmes of innocencie and integriry this way , if the judge protest hee never hath , nor ever meant to corrupt judgement , then why are bribes taken ? and what becomes of the causalitie , or efficiencie of these ? for these have their effects upon men ; yea , upon men that most indisposed otherwise , to be wrought upon , as the holy ghost , that perfectly knowes the nature , and efficacie , and operation of all things , testifies , deut. . . a reward blindeth the eyes of the wise , and perverteth the words of the just : it blindeth not onely such eyes as are halfe blinde already , and so might easily be made blinde altogether ; neirher doth it pervert onely the words of such as are naturally inclin'd to injustice & doing of wrong , but even of the just themselves , now suppose the blinde man were never so confident of his way that he was right , the words of his confidence were scarce worth the weighing ; when men have suffered the eyes of their judgements to be blinded with honour and inordinate desires of preferment , covetousnesse , envie , contention : and the like confidence , and peremptorinesse in such men is rather to be suspected . we say of blinde men that they doe fortius impingere , stumble more strongly . §. . . men that resolve thus , and say thus with themselves ; i will runne a course of preferment , i will seeke to raise my selfe in the world , but i , will keepe a good conscience too : i will not suffer my judgement to bee perverted ; doe as if a man , when he is awake , should promise himselfe what his dreame should be , when hee is fallen a sleepe : many like ionathan follow the chase close till they come where honey is , and there they breake their ranks , and give over . §. . . thirdly and lastly , the complaints , and teares , and sorrowes , of godly men for the losse of truth , or corruptions at any time brought in , in matters of religion ; these may determine whether such men bee depravers of the faith or not : but you will say , such may complaine without cause ; many mens feares , yea and griefs too , may be superstitious , and worse then either the harme or danger that occasion them . i answer , to doe so , to complaine without cause , were worse then that which the beast doth , as iob . . does the wilde assebray when he hath grasse ? or doth the oxe low over his fodder ? if the generation of the righteous ( as david cals them ) consent in any thing ( i doe not say if some particulars of them ) but if the generation , that is of the maine bodie of such men doe consent in any thing , their unanimous and joynt cariage or behaviour is sufficient ( ordinarily ) to determine matters of this nature : and david more then once , resolves the ambiguities of his thoughts , and spirit into their judgement . then ( saith he ) should i condemne the generation of the righteous ; or ( as the last translation hath it ) behold i should offend against the generation of thy children . implying that no cariage of his , no apprehensions , were like to bee sound and justifiable , wherein he should oppose or gaine-say the generall vote of the righteous ; though vox populi , the voyce of the people , bee not alwayes vox dei , the voyce of god : yet vox populi dei , the voyce of the people of god is ( for the most part ) the voyce of god. cap. xi . containing a briefe exhortation , to inquire diligently into the truth , that men may know what they ought to contend for . §. . a fourth and last use , is of exhortation , and that to two duties , the former to make way , and to prepare for the later . the first dutie is , that wee would inquire after the truth , that we would take paines , and use diligence to informe our selves , what it is that we may not contend for errour , nor sacrifice to an idoll ( as many doe . ) the second , that we would earnestly contend for it , and seeke to uphold it , when we cleerely understand what it is . in few words acquaint we our selves with the truth of god , and labour to know the straight wayes and paths of it . imitate the angels , . pet. . . that is , bend and bow your selves towards the things of jesus christ , that you may lay the eyes of your mindes and understandings close to the secret veynes , and spirituall conveyances of the great mysterie of godlinesse , and so be the better able to discerne and judge when the faire and beautifull wisedome of god therein , shall bee any wayes blemished or misfigured by any offer , or attempt made to incorporate the wisedome of men with it . thinke we thus with our selves , that those abilities of reason , judgement , understanding , which are given us above other creatures , are chiefely given for this end , that by these we might bee capable of the knowledge of god and of this truth , bee earnest with god to get the fleshly tabls of our hearts written with that doctrine , and principles thereof , which is according to godlinesse , by the finger of his spirit . §. . . they that will shew themselves men in this conflict , had not need bee children in understanding ; it is our reasonable service that is here required of us . god would have us known both what it is wee contend for , and what it is we oppose ; the goodnesse and beautie of the one , and the drossinesse and basenesse of the other . why callest thou mee good , saith our saviour to the ruler in the gospel , luke . . not that hee did reject the tearme or title , or refuse to owne it because it was not his due : ( for hee was god , to whom hee did acknowledge it was due ) but because he would not receive it by way of complement , hee knew the man did not yet beleeve that he was god indeed , and therefore did not care to bee honoured by him as god ; so god would have us first know what truth is , and what is the glorie and brightnesse of it , and then our contending for it shall be highly accepted . §. . . to honour his truth with that honour that belongs to it , and not to know that is the truth which a man so honoureth ; this is but like the athenian inscription , to the knowne god : therefore labor we to make our selves so many apollo's , mightie in the seriptures . acts . . for so wee shall both know what to contend for , and bee able also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to quit our selves like men , able to confute the adversaries of the truth mightily , as it is said in the same place as apollo's did the iewes ; he carried the truth cleere away before him with great evidence and power . but i leave this and come to the latter dutie ; to the urging and pressing whereof the text more directly leades unto . cap. xii . an exhortation to contend for the truth , with six severall motives or considerations provoking thereunto . §. . vve see , and have heard that it is the perfect and expresse will of god , that wee should all earnestly contend for the truth of our faith , for the truth of the gospel , and therefore suffer this word of exhortation to take place in us . let us take the courage and resolution of valiant men upon us , and bee intreated to become good . souldiers of jesus christ , and hold fast the truth we have received . let us not be remisse and loose in a dutie of that high importance , as we will answer to our captaine at the perill of our salvation at the great day . if we finde our hearts averse from this service , dull and heavie within us , use meanes of provocation , and let not the motion die in our breasts . to quicken our selves in this case we may use these and the like motives . §. . . first consider , that except we contend in this case , and shew our selves men ; yea , and more then men : this faith of ours will bee laid waste and utterly destroyed by the enemies of it , our gospel will soone become another gospel , that jesus which hitherto hath , and yet is , ( blessed bee god ) and long may be preached amongst us , will bee exchanged for another jesus that cannot save us ; and let mee say this unto you : the chang is sooner made then men are aware of , saint paul was jealous of the corinthians , lest this sore and heavie judgement had befallen them , . cor. . . lest their mindes should be corrupted from that simplicitie which is in christ . the simplicitie of the gospel is the life and power of it : and yet in regard of such a propertie in it , it is fearefully obnoxious to corruptions from men . the truth of the gospel will not remaine and abide with us , except it be contended for : sathan will not suffer us to possesse so rich a treasure , except wee set the house of our defence somewhat high ; except wee hold fast our crowne it will bee taken from us . §. . . saint paul gives this reason to the galatians , why he so stoutly stood it out against those false brethren , that were craftily sent in to bring them into bondage , and would not give place to them , no not for an houre ; namely , that the truth of the gospel might continue with them , gal. . . implying that all had beene gone , all lost in a moment , had not paul risen up as a man of warre for the defence of the truth : so our saviour willeth the church of philadelphia , rev. . . to hold fast that which shee hath , lest another take her crowne ; that is , if shee did not contend for , and hold fast the truth of the gospel , which for the present was taught and established in that church ( which was her crowne , or would be her crowne , if she kept it ) it would fall to the share of some other church or people : for commonly when the kingdome of god is taken from one place it is given to another , because god will shew his libertie and freedome this way ; or that he can better accord with meere strangers then with old friends , that are declined and fallen in their affections . §. . . secondly , consider that if we lose our faith , if the truth of god miscarries with us , wee lose the presence of god , and cause him to forsake his former habitation among us ; for god and his gospel goe together , and make their abode together , throughout the whole world : wee know the scriptures plainely teach us , that the nation or people , that is without the true knowledge of god , is without god in the world , eph. . . that is , have no interest in god , and cannot reckon him inter bona sua , as any part of their goods or possessions : god is to them no god , except it bee to punish or destroy , so zachary . . prophecieth , that men out of all nations should take hold of the skirt of him that is a jew , and should desire to goe with him , because wee have heard that god is with you ( say they ) . now how or why should god bee with them ? namely , because they had the true knowledge of god according to his word , as on the contrary , . cron. . . it is said that israel was without the true god , so long as they wanted the true knowledge of him , god dwelling only where he is knowne . §. . now then consider what an invaluable losse wee shall gaine , to suffer the great god of heaven and earth , whose truth and faithfulnesse have alwayes bin shield & buckler unto us , to depart out of our land , woe unto them ( saith god himselfe by his prophet concerning israel ) woe unto them when i depart from them , hosea . . what will wee doe in the day when our wall of fire shall be removed from being round about us : shall we not be left as a prey to all miseries , judgements , and calamities ? may not all the world serve their turnes out of us ? §. . . what is a citie , people , or nation , forsaken of their god , but as a dead carcase when the spirit of life is departed , and presently begins to corrupt , and putrifie , and cast forth a smell , and so cals all the birds of prey ( even from a farre ) to teare and to devoure ? this i take to be the meaning of that place in the gospel : where the carkase is , there will the eagles bee gathered together , mat. . . compar'd with luke . . it is cleerely spoken concerning the destruction of ierusalem upon gods departing and forsaking that nation , who whiles he continued in the middest of them , was as a spirit of life unto them ; and so long their enemies had no minde to seeke their destruction , or to prey upon them ; as the eagles , vultures , and other birds of prey , have no thoughts or desire of seizing upon wild beasts , whilst they live in their strength : neither doe their bodies send forth any ill favour , to invite and call them to the prey till they bee dead , and begin to putrifie : so whilst god was present with ierusalem in the fulnesse of his grace ; her enemies had no hearts to thinke of making prey or spoyle of her : but when hee who was her life ( god i meane ) departed out of her , shee presently beganne to putrifie ; and the romans , her enemies ( significantly intimated by the eagle , which was their ensigne or colours in the warre ) soone sented her putrifying carkase , and were gathered together against her , and devoured her . but as well for further illustration of this exposition of the last cited scriptures , as for strengthning the motive in hand , i desire that these passages may be looked upon , and diligently considered and compared together . numb . . . deut. . . deut. . . deut. . . iudg. . . . psal . . . psal . . . esa . . . ezech. . . ezech. . . and lastly the geneva note on gen. . . §. . . thirdly , consider if we will contend earnestly for the truth ( as we have beene directed ) we shall have assured successe ; our enemies shall never say in triumph against us , behold wee have prevailed , wee shall bee able to rescue the truth , out of the hands of all gainesayers , and of all the powers of darknesse . if we will buy the truth at gods price , no man shall have it out of our hands : if wee bee willing to cleave to it , and live with it , god will never put us asunder by a strong hand : hold fast ( saith our saviour to the church of philadelphia ) lest another take thy crowne ; implying , that holding fast will prevent it ; thy crowne shall alwayes stand upon thy owne head , if thou wilt keepe thine owne ( as wee say ) if thou wilt set thy foote to the foote of the adversarie , and not let him carry away the truth , except hee carry away thee too , or something of thine with him . §. . . continue ( saith st. paul to the philippians ) in one spirit , and one minde , striving together for ( or with ) the faith of the gospel , and in nothing feare your adversaries , philip. . . . if wee will not contend , if wee will make no resistance against sathan , then will he tyrannize over us , and impoverish us of our great treasure , and bring us to a morsell of bread , hee will triumph in the ruines of the truth , and of oursoules together , but if wee will resist him in this case , we know what the holy ghost promises , who knowes sathans depths ; and tels all his secrets , that he will flee from you : iames . . if hee findes resistance , so that hee cannot speede presently , or suddenly as he desires , hee stands upon thornes ( as we say ) he must not lose time , hee hath but a little left ; hee will away to others , where he hopes to bestow his time and temptations to better purpose . §. . . consider that if we will come forth and shew our selves men in this conflict for the truth , and partake in this most noble and honourable quarrell of the gospel , against the world ; wee shall share with jesus christ in his glorie , and triumph in the day of his great victorie , against antichrist and his angels , and followers : yea , ( that which mee thinkes should bee the most sutable incouragement under heaven , to the spirit of a christian right bred ) the successe and glorie of that great victorie of the lambe over the beast ; shall bee divided between the captain and the souldiers , and is in part ascribed to the faithfulnesse of those that bee with him in the battell , rev. . . these shall fight with the lambe , and the lambe shall over-come them ; for they that are with him are called , and chosen , and faithfull . cast but an eye upon this glorie , and it cannot but fill us with the highest courage and resolution for this service . that which yee have already , hold fast till i come ( saith christ to the church of thyatira , rev. . . . for hee that overcometh , and keepeth my workes unto the end , to him will i give power over nations . the world is at his feete , whose heart will but serve him to looke the devill and his terrible ones in the face , when they goe forth to battle against the truth §. . . fifthly , consider that if wee will therefore decline this warfare because it must bee undertaken at our owne cost and charges , wee may sustaine losse in our estates , losse of friends , credit in the world ; our liberties , our lives , &c. consider , i say , and consider it againe ( it is a waighty and most important truth ) that all these may ( may , yea must ) lose and part with , it may be upon harder and worse termes a thousand-fold ; upon better and more honourable , and with more advantage to our selves , then in this warfare ; impossible it is that ever wee should : mee thinke this motive should cut off all reasonings and gaine . sayings of the flesh . if the flesh in any kinde should plead to bee spared or excused from this warfare , it should not onely plead against the spirit , but against it selfe also . therefore for such stuffe as this , regard it not : loe , the whole kingdome of heaven is before us , and is ours . §. . . suppose that god at any time should cal for thy service herein , & thou seest thou canst not serve without expence of thy estate , abridgement of thy libertie ( it may be ) danger of thy life , and thou makest answer , no : thou wilt see what will become of the truth otherwise . it may be the verie next day ( for ought thou knowest , within a shorter space ) god will suffer that great extortioner death , to spoyle thee of thy life and then ( as god saith to the foole , luke . . ) whose shall all these be ? ) where is thy estate ? where libertie ? where credit ? where friends ? where life ? all is lost for ever : whereas , if thou hadest beene willing to have made over these things by such a deed of gift ( as hath beene spoken of ) into the hands of god , they had beene safe for thee for eternitie . there is no way else in the world for these mortall comforts , to put on immortalitie , the outward and corruptible good things , to put on incorruption ; but only to make a consecration of them to him that is immortall ( as the scriptures every where teach . ) if thy goods be otherwise spoyled , thy libertie restrained , life taken from thee ; god will not regard thee , nor take compassion on thee : it may be he will value thee and thy life at as little , as thou doest him and his truth : hee will sell thee for nought , and take no money for thee ( as david speakes ) that is , hee will not so much as punish , or shew any judgement upon those that shall oppresse thee , or destroy thee . §. . . a father that hath given an estate to a sonne that is improvident , and wastes it with riotous living ( as the prodigall did ) regardeth him not , casts him off , and suffers him to taste of want and all extremitie . but if hee so layes out his stocke to make still a returne and increase , the father delights in him : so doth god with men ; those that will wisely and providently dispose of such mercies as hee hath given them , so that though they be out of hand for a while , yet they are still returning and comming in againe , such are his delight , and men of his affection : but for those that so order and mannage their present estates and comforts in the world , that they wholly perish at last , and are never heard of more , nor seene in any returne of good , his soule abhorreth : hee loveth to see his children wise in their generation . and in this sense , i conceive that of our saviour to bee understood , iohn . . therefore doth my father love mee , because i lay downe my life , that i might take it againe : that is , because i lay it downe so , in such a way , upon such tearmes of obedience and submission to his will , that i may in equitie and justice receive it againe : wee cannot thinke our saviours meaning should bee , that therefore god should love him for a simple and bare intent of resuming his life again upon death ( for who would not desire to live againe , in case he should dye ; that 's rather nature then commendation , or matter of love ) but this is that that god did love him for , that he was carefull and willing to dye with that abundance of zeale to the glorie of his father , and abundance of love to his church and chosen ; that his life by no law of justice or equitie could bee kept from him , but must be restored to him againe . §. . . so , for us to part with any thing we have in such a manner , as that wee cannot take it againe , which is properly to play the prodigals , and to waste what wee have : to part with our money , libertie , lives , grudgingly , unwillingly , to serve our own turns , &c. the lord regards it not , but if wee part with them so , that we may take them againe , that god may with justice , equitie , and truth , restore these unto us in due time with advantage ; this is that that he loveth , and for which he taketh a holie delight and contentment in us . §. . . besides , oft times when a man hath dealt basely , and unworthily ( in this kinde ) with the lord and his truth , and hath loved the wages of unfaithfulnesse : as ( for the most part ) god himselfe taketh no pleasure in such a mans person ; so is it a just judgement of his upō the man himself , that he should take little pleasure in himself afterwards , nor in what hee saves by this unfaithfulnesse unto the lord. §. . . sixthly ( and lastly ) consider that if wee will contend for the truth as wee ought , whilest the brunt is not so sharpe , whilest the dutie of contending is upon easier tearmes then bloud , wee may bee excused from the necessitie of a more fierie contention : our estates , our liberties , our prayers seasonably bestowed in this service , may possibly excuse our lives . i conceive this to bee the meaning of that promise made to the church of philadelphia , rev. . . because thou hast kept the word of my patience , i also will keepe thee from the houre of temptation , which shall come upon the whole world , to try them that dwell upon the earth . philadelphia ( it seemes ) had beene faithfull , and stood close to the gospel , when it was opposed , but not with so high or bloudie a hand of opposition , as it was like to be afterwards generally : and therefore christ promiseth her , in consideration hereof , that when the sharp and fierie storm and tempest of triall , should fall round about her upon the christian world , she should finde covert and shelter from it . cap. xiii . shewing in what manner , and with what weapons , the truth is to be contended for . §. . if you desire ( in the last place ) to know , and to be directed how , and in what manner , and with what weapons , this holie warre is to be under-taken , and truth contended for : i answer , there are sixe things especially ( besides others of more obvious consideration ) to be done in it , as time and occasion shall require . first , men must contend for truth by teaching and propagating it in the world : the more copies wee write of it , the like-lier it is to bee preserved ; if one or some bee lost , others may remaine ; therefore every man according to his calling must be diligent this way , to stampe the frame of the truth upon the judgements and understandings of those that are under their hand , and committed to their charge . §. . . a childe or a servant well grounded , may be instrumentall in spreading the truth farre into the world . abraham had but one sonne according to promise , and yet by him his seede was multiplyed as the starres in the heaven for multitude , and as the sands upon the sea shore innumerable : what though thou hast no absolute promise , no certaintie of so gracious and full a successe , yet a possibilitie in this kinde especially quickned with some degree of probabilitie and hope should be a ground of incouragement and resolution to doe it : true , wee must not doe evill that good may come of it ; but we may , and must doe good the rather , when more good may come of it . §. . . we finde the holy ghost inforceth many exhortations to many duties upon this ground of possibilitie , especially when it drawes one to a probabilitie or likelihood : god would have us in some cases to live by charitie ( as it were ) as well as by faith , and have us to expect and hope the best as well as beleeve that which is certaine , heb. . . . cor. . . therefore let not this means of contending for the truth be neglected at any hand . as the apostle ( in the scripture cited , heb. . . ) perswadeth men to hospitalitie or intertainment of strangers upō this ground , because some men unawares had received angels : so it is good still to bee seasoning of those in whom there is no great appearance ( for the present ) children , servants , &c. with the principles of gospel , knowledge , though it were upon this consideration alone , that we may unawares have our hand in furnishing the truth and church of god , with such , who may prove like angels in their ministerie and service about the holy things of jesus christ afterwards . §. . . secondly , men that be of abilitie for it , when they meete with occasions and opportunities , sutable to such actions , and endevours , must vindicate the truth as paul did among the galatians , gal. . . they must not give place or way to such as oppose it , or will stand up to pleade for baal . if men of erronious spirits finde mouthes to open against the truth , the children of light must finde mouthes to open for the truth . as one said , if theeves will rise at midnight to murther men , shall not men bee willing to bee awakened to save their lives ? that promise was made long since to the church ; that every tongue that should rise up in judgement against it , it should condemne , or ( as the originall hath it ) should make wicked . isaiah . . the meaning of the promise may be , that gods people who should be all taught of him ? , should have the spirit of wisedome given , that their enemies should not be able to resist ; but they should confute and confound them : we should therfore here live by faith , and gather strength from such promises , and doe as cyrus is said to have done , when the propchsies of isaiah contained in the . and . chapters were read unto him ; hee went with great courage and resolution against egypt : therefore we should endeavour to be as so many apollo's , mightie in the scriptures , and gird on the sword of the spirit , and cause the word of christ to dwell richly in us ; that so wee may bee able to grapple with an adversarie when he comes in our way , and not suffer him to make havocke and spoyle of the truth without contradiction . §. . . thirdly , wee must shine as lights in the world by innocencie and puritie of life , and make our selves patternes and examples unto others in the practice and exercise of every grace : this is a thing of speciall importance for upholding the truth . that doctrine which makes men like unto god , cannot lightly be thought to bee any other then the truth of god , it can bee no mortall seede , out of which children like unto god himselfe shall be borne ; our innocent and pure conversation will bee shield and buckler to defend thee : the truth , and religion is seldome wounded but through the sides of the sinfull lives of the professors thereof . §. . . if the truth and way of religion we professe be fruitfull in this kinde , if it bring forth many good workes , it is a blessing upon it , in such a respect as david esteemes that man blessed that hath many children , psal . . . . such a man ( saith he ) shall not bee ashamed or afraid of his enemies in the gate , because he hath many seconds to take his part , and to make good his quarrell : children of youth , saith hee , are like arrowes in the hand of a gyant , which by reason of the strength of his arme in the deliverie of them , must needs reach a marke at a great distance , so will the good life & unreproveable conversation in professors of the truth wound the hearts of the enemies of religion , even a farre off , and of such as were never neere us , nor never knew our faces . the holinesse of our lives will be instead of miracles , men shall be compelled to say of our religion , as nicodemus said of our saviour , iohn . . no man can doe the miracles that thou doest , except god bee with him : no religion can produce such gracious and lovely wayes , except god be in it : doe we but manifest the power of godlinesse in our lives , we sufficiently manifest the doctrine of godlinesse in our judgements : these cannot be parted . if wee doe well saith peter , . pet. . . who is hee that shall harme you : yea , if we doe well , who will or can harme us , or our religion ? or if they do it with their tongues , yet will they honour both in their hearts , and then it is no matter . take heed of the practice of the wicked ; and men cannot likely blame us for the errour of the wicked . §. . . fourthly , men must countenance the truth , the teachers , abettors , and professors of it , this chiefely concernes the magistrate , and men in place , and men of respect ; it is a debt which such men owe by vertue of their place , to the truth and such as professe it , to bee ready to speake for either , and to stand up in the defence of both , and to shew respects of honour unto them when time require : as iehoshaphat did to michaiah , . cron. . . . doe well saith paul , rom. . . so shalt thou have praise of the same ; that is , of the powers , or men in authoritie : so god undertakes for those that are his ministers in those places of power and authoritie , that men that doe well shall have praise from them , and be countenanced by them they should hearten the truth : as the influence of the sunne and other stars is ordain'd in nature to give vigour and life to trees , plants , and other sublunarie creatures : so is the face and countenance of authoritie sanctified by god for the cherishing and quickning of every good and vertuous way amongst those that live under them , for strengthning and refreshing all seeds of pietie and religion that are seene in the hearts of men . and on the contrarie their anger , and the cloude of the faces of such men are a proper meanes to dash and breake the strength and power of ungodlinesse ( as salomon speakes of the king , the chiefe of that ranke ) pro. . . the king that sitteth upon the throne of judgement ; that is , that executeth that great place faithfully , scattereth away all evill with his eyes : his verie lookes will breake the brood of evill doers . §. . . therefore men that resemble god in power , should remember to imitate him also in that gracious rule of government , psal . . . though the lord be high , yet hath hee respect unto the lowly , but the proud he knowes far off . a magistrate that doth otherwise , that hath respect to the proud and wicked , and beholds the righteous and lowly a far off , doth in effect that which our saviour saith is not to bee done , hee takes the childrens bread , and casts it to the dogges . §. . . fifthly , men must confesse the truth when they are examin'd or call'd to it , whatsoever it cost them : this is that will preserve the honour and estimation of truth in the hearts of men , and cause men to inquire more after it , when they see men of knowledge , and grace , and wisedom , so constant in the defence of it , when they see such round sums laid downe for it as mens estates , preferments , liberties , and lives , &c. willingly and freely , as if they that so bought it , boasted of their penie-worth . this cannot but raise the estimation of it , this will make it a commoditie in request in the world when men will not sell it at any rate , but will buy it . §. . . this confessing of truth and suffering for it , this sealing of it somtime with bloud , is that that hath preserved it safe and sound from depravation and corruption to this day , as god honoured the death of his sonne , with the life and salvation of his elect , and those that beleeve ; and this is said to bee a satisfaction to him , isaiah . . so hath hee honoured and recompenced the lives , and all other losses , his children and faithfull servants have sustained in this world , with the life and preservation , of the gospel ; which is indeed an abundant satisfaction to them . this is the fire from heaven which our savior kindled , & will never out , so long as there is such fuell to maintaine it . men may triumph beforehand in a rich & blessed securitie , that the life of the truth so fed and maintained , will be a long life , even for ever and ever . david would not drinke the water of the well of bethlehem , because it was the bloud ( as hee said ) of the men that went in jeopardie of their lives , but powred it out unto the lord. . sam. . . . so men cannot ( though they would ) despise , or make common that truth which hath cost the lives of so many thousands to maintaine it . §. . . sixthly and lastly , there is one thing more which must be done by al , and that constantly , and continually , men must pray for the truth , and for the continuance and enlargement of it ; men must quicken their hearts this way , and deale effectually with the god of truth , for his support and helping hand , that hee will still from time to time discover the madnesse of men that resist the truth , and are men of corrupt minds and reprobate , as concerning the faith ; that the would make it evident and manifest to all men , that they may prevaile no longer , that so the gospel may runne and bee glorified : men must take and beare the outrages and insolencies of such against the truth , and doe by them as hezekiah did with the letters of rabshakeh , isaiah . . he spread them before the lord , and pray'd , and wept over them . and if god will not doe it upon other tearmes , let importunitie be let loose , and set upon him ; that will doe it though nothing else will , though hee were an unjust judge , neither regarding himselfe , nor his own glorie , nor the good of his poore creature , yet this would overcome him . this is a meanes that is to bee plyed on all hands night and day . divers particulars more might bee given in , by way of direction in this kinde : but if men bee sound within , and upright hearted towards the truth , their owne reines and consciences will sufficiently teach us what is to bee done for the maintenance of it , upon all occasions . finis . a sermon preached at the fvnerall of m rs . abbott in st. stevens church in coleman-street london . by iohn goodwin pastor of s. stephens coleman-street . london , printed by t. cotes , for peter cole , and are to be sold at the signe of the glove and lyon in corne-hill neere the royall exchange . . a fvnerall sermon . luke . . mary hath chosen the good part , which shall not bee taken from her . the words in their dependance , are part of an answer given by christ , to a kinde of expostulation , or contestation made with him , by a woman whose name was martha , against her sister called mary . the case ( in a word ) was this . our saviour christ ( whether voluntary , or invited , is neither easie , nor much edifying to determine ) comes guest-wise to visit a family , when hee knew hee should finde a little nest ( as it were ) of his friends together ; mary and martha , two sisters , and lazarus the brother . that god which had made them of one house , had made them of one minde also in that house : and this minde wherein they agreed , and were as one , was the best and blessedest minde of all : they were one in the faith and love of jesus christ . notwithstanding the two sisters , however they accorded well , and were both as one in the maine ; they were both ( doubtlesse ) children of the same light : yet ( it seemes ) they were of somewhat differing dispositions ( or apprehensions rather , for the disposition ariseth from hence ) in some particulars : examples of which kinde of differences we see daily amongst those that are not onely truely , but even eminently , godly , and religious . martha the elder sister , as is more generally thought , though mary be first named iohn . . ) her apprehensions gave her , that shee should expresse her affections to her cleare lord ( her present guest ) upon the highest & best termes , by bestirring her selfe about his entertainment , and taking care that all things might fall right here . mary on the other hand , had another conceit ( and that more spirituall , and of a further reach ) with her , that she should best commend her selfe and her affection unto him , by being his guest , and feeding upon those lips of his , which were a tree of life to feed many : by setting her selfe downe at his feete , to heare his preaching ( as the text saith . ) now martha apprehending , without all controversie , that shee was the woman at this time , and imployed about that which was fittest to bee done upon such an occasion ; and that her sister was carelesse , and forgetfull of what best became her ; and withall ( as it should seeme ) being a little jealous that her entertainment might suffer some losse and prejudice , and not fully answer that curious plat-forme , according to which shee had projected it , because there was none but her selfe to order and looke after the carriage of it : martha ( i say ) being strengthened with these apprehensions , comes to christ , and addresseth her selfe unto him in these words : master , carest thou not , that my sister hath left me to server alone ? bid her therefore that shee helpe me . shee made little question , but that christ had beene of her minde , and would have taken her part in this gentle quarrell against her sister . only shee thought , that being taken up in discourse , he did not minde or observe the matter between them ; and therefore she would bee a remembrancer unto him : and comes and pleades her owne insufficiencie to have things as shee desired to have them for his entertainement , and suggests , that if hee pleased to speake to her sister to helpe , shee was at very good leasure to doe it . to this request of martha to have her sister away from christs feete , from hearing his word , our saviour returnes this unexpected answer . martha , martha , thou carest and art troubled about many things ; one thing is needfull : mary hath chosen the good part , which shall not bee taken from her . martha martha : the duplication of the word , sheweth that his spirit was stirred within him upon the motion , and that his answer was serious and earnest in a high degree . thou carest and art troubled , &c. as if hee should say : thou findest many things to take up thy time , and trouble thy selfe about that might well bee spared and left undone , and no man hurt , or the worse for it ; and in the meane time forgettest , and dost not consider that one thing , which is of soveraigne necessity indeed . but mary thy sister , shee remembers it , she considers what it is to learne the mysteries of heaven , and to take hold of the opportunities of eternall life . and therefore howsoever thou thinkest thou hast espied a moate in her eye , and blamest her for doing what she doth : yet i discerne her eye to bee single , and her sight cleare , and must approve of what she hath done . mary hath chosen the good part , which shall not bee taken from her . of which part of the answer , there is a double exposition usually given , according to the one , the sense fals thus : maries part , is therefore the good part , and wisely chosen ; because it shall for ever continue with her , shee shall follow this her imployment in heaven , where she shall bee taken up and exercised in the contemplation of god , and of the great things of his glory , all the dayes of eternity . this is the interpretation , that the jesuits , and popish expositors generally magnifie upon this place , onely to vilifie and beate downe ( as not onely their manner , but profession also is ) the interpretation which calvin gives , which yet ( doubtlesse ) is the best and truest , and delivers out the sense thus : mary hath chosen the good part , which , &c. as if hee should say : in as much as mary hath done wisely ; and made a good choyce for her selfe , it shall not be taken away from her by me , i shall no wayes put her by it , or advise her to make any other choyce instead of it . thus wee have the coherence together with the sense and meaning of the words . in which words ( thus apprehended ) wee have these two things considerable . . the approbation of maries choyce , by the great and infallible iudge of all questions and controversies , the lord christ himselfe . . his resolution upon it , not to disturbe , or in errupt her in this her choyce : in these words : which shall not bee taken from her . both these breasts are full of milke , and spirituall nourishment , and would gladly unlade their treasures into your bosomes , as well the one as the other . but i shall entertaine your christian and patient attention at this time , with the opening and handling of this one observation onely from the former branch ( christs approbation of maries choyce . ) the minding and improving opportunites for heaven , is a thing of high and special acceptatiō with god. the lord loves none better than those that love themselves best in this way . hee that is upon the highest termes of resolutions for heaven , he , he is the man in whom the soule of the god of heaven chiefly delighteth , hee that can let the world passe by , & not be moved nor stirred at it , but will be on fire to lay hold on eternall life , when that comes in his way , hee is the man that shall be called great in the kingdome of heaven , by the great king of heaven himselfe . first , for the opening of the doctrine ; i will ( with all convenient brevity ) shew these two things . what these opportunities for heaven are , and what i meane by them . what i meane by the improvement of them . for the first , in the generall it is to be considered , that there is nothing that be falls us in this present world , good or evill ; nothing that befalleth other men ( if the knowledge there of comes unto us ) nothing we thinke , nothing we speake , or do in any kinde ; nothing that other men thinke , speake , or doe , if it falls within the sphere of our knowledge , but by a strong hand of grace , and spirituall wisdome , may be converted to a spirituall use , and be compelled , and forced to doe service for heaven . a gratious and wise heart knowes how to subdue all the wayes of god , and all a mans own wayes , and all the wayes of other men , and put them under this tribute . amongst all the wayes of the providence and dispensation of god , in the administration of the affaires of the world , there is none so drye , or barren , but there is somewhat of god in it , there is some ingredient or other , either of his wisedome , power , justice , goodnesse , faithfulnes , or the like ; which by servent and intense consideration may be drawne out as a spirituall extraction , and be found as light prepared for the soule . for there is not the least beame of glimmering of this light ; the least shining of the knowledge of god upon the face of the soule , but it is of precious influence , and concernment for heaven . this is life eternall to know thee the onely true god , &c. ioh. . . the heaven and happinesse of the creature depends upon the happinesse of the creator . so againe , there is nothing we can thinke , desire , love , feare , or the like ; nothing wee speake or doe , but if wee minde it , there is some taste and relish in it of the frame of the heart within , some disposition or other is acted , and consequently is manifested by all these . now every degree of this light also , every touch or streyne of the knowledge of our selves , directly tends to enlarge , and strengthen our knowledge of god ( as might be shewed at large , but that wee have no leasure now for digressions ) and therefore is a gale of wind also to fill our sayles for heaven . and lastly , there is nothing wee can see , or heare , or know concerning other men , as either spoken , intended , or done by them . whether it be that which is righteous , holy , and good , or otherwise wicked , sinfull , and vile ; but that we may see the truth of the scriptures acted ( as it were ) before us therein , which testifie in every place , as of the manner , law and properties of spirituall wisedome , grace , and holinesse on the one hand : so likewise , of ignorance , vanity , and profanenesse on the other . so that i say , there is nothing in this world wee can meete withall in any place , or at any time , either from god , or from our selves , or from other men , be they things whose faces seeme to stand quite another way , and no point of the compasse towards heaven , which yet by a strong hand of grace ( as was said ) and by a dexterity of spirituall wisdome , may be turned about , and be made faire advantages and oportunities for heaven . but howsoever , i would not in the doctrine propounded , altogether exclude such opportunities as these , which are but generally remote , and of inferiour importance . yet i chiefly intend those that are more proper , and direct , and that have a neare affinity with heaven , that are opportunities prepared ( as it were ) and made to our hand , and need only using . and such are , . the ministery of the gospell , especially in the hand of a minister that is faithfull , and enabled of god to bring forth life and immortality into light by the gospell , when wee have no reall hindrance or cause of absence , as by sicknesse , weaknesse , or some other indispenceable occasions , &c. this is an opportunity for heaven of the first magnitude . to which we may adde ( in the second place ) the administration of the sacraments , wherein wee may feed upon the great and holy things of jesus christ by other senses , as wee do by hearing in the ministrie of the word ; especially the sacrament of the supper , where hee that is our life ( as the apostle speaketh ) the great captaine of our salvation , presents himselfe , and his dearest love unto us in those elements of bread & wine : whereunto uniting himselfe sacramentally , they goe down together , bread and wine into the body , and christ unto the soule . thirdly , another great opportunity for heaven , is the presence and company of holy men , especially such as are able to draw waters of life for us ; out of the wels of salvation ( as esay speaketh ) that are able out of the good treasure of their hearts ( as our saviour calleth it ) are able to furnish us with all variety of spirituall necessaries . fourthly , when god meets with us in the likenesse or appearance of fire , i meane in any great or remarkeable tryall , this is a speciall opportunity for heaven also ; now is there a time or season , wherein to be made partakers of his holinesse ( as the scripture speakes ) the fiery chariots of afflictions , are still sent for our hearts to carry them up into heaven . againe fifthly . when god ( on the other hand ) appeares unto us , as hee did unto moses , and to the elders of israel . exod. . . with the likenesse of a saphir stone under his feete , and as the heaven when it is cleare , when he causeth his sun of prosperity to shine upon us , whether spirituall or temporall , and doth things for us , whether in the affaires of this world , or of that which is to come , which wee looked not for , when either hee lifts us up from the dust of the earth , and sets us with the princes of his people , or delivers our soules that have dwelt among lyons , devouring feares , and raging terrours , and brings them forth into a wealthy place , and settles their abode amongst the powers of the life to come : this also is a rich oportunity for heaven : now is it seasonable to get such a fire of love to god , kindled in our hearts , that shall never be quenched . sixthly , when a man is chosen , and called forth by some speciall hand of providence , to doe any speciall service for god , or for the gospell , whether by suffering or otherwise , this is a speciall advantage and opportunity also , for a man to take hold of heaven , and to set life and immortality on working within him . let patience ( saith iames , cap. . vers . . ) have her perfect worke . i. e. never goe about to shift or decline any suffering whatsoever for christs sake , by any base or unlawfull way : suffer on till god himselfe delivers you , and let not sathan be your deliverer , this ( i conceive ) is to let patience have her perfect worke . the ground of this exhortation is : that they might be perfect and entire ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) wanting nothing , i. e. that they might be a compleate , and immediate preparation and fitnesse for heaven : for after wee have done the will of god by beleeving , and walking holily , we have yet need of patiēce ( saith the apostle heb. . . ) that we may receive the promise . faith is our foundation , holines of life as the wals , and sufferings as the roofe & consummation of our building up for heaven . lastly , any lucidum intervallum , any respite or breathing time from the workes and labours of our hands from our ordinary callings , and imployments , is a season and opportunity for prayer , reading , meditation , &c. and consequently for heaven . when the world hath nothing to doe with us , it is our fittest season to have to do with god. we might instāce in more particulars : but by these you perceive what the speciall opportunities for heaven are , which are chiefly intended in the doctrine . wee come ( in the second place ) to shew you ( in a word ) what wee mean by improving these opportunities . this is nothing else , but the raising of such matter of benefit and advantage from them , as the nature and condition of every opportunitie doth afford . it is like the gathering of fruit from the tree that beares it , or drawing milke out of the breast that gives it . as when a sermon is preached , the receiving , and gaining in that knowledge , that quickning , that raising of heart , that strengthening of the inner man , that weakning and disabling of corruption , and the like , according to the tenour , and importance of things therein delivered , this is the improving of such an opportunity . so in time of affliction , and triall , for a man to joyne with the chastisement of the lord , & to helpe his rodde forward , with that spirituall worke and businesse , about which it is sent , which ( happily ) may be the awakening of us out of the sleepe of security , the quickning of us in the wayes of holinesse , & workes of righteousnesse , the setting of our hearts , and this present world asunder , at a greater distance , the reforming of somewhat in our lives , and practice , which is heterogeneall , and so a staine , and blemish to the rest of our conversation , or the like . now when a man shall take the rodde of god that is upon him ( as it were ) in o his owne hand , and by the advantage and assistance thereof shall compell his foolish heart to let goe the hold it hath taken on vanity in any kinde ; and to stoope to that yoke of righteousnesse , which god would put upon it ( which it may be is impossible for him to doe at another time , when hee hath not the like assistance from heaven , in a way of affliction : most mens hearts are unruly , and unteachable , except it bee when there is a rodde at hand ) this is an improvement of such an opportunity ; the like is to be conceived in other particulars . there may bee an inferiour and under improvement of an opportunity , when a man gaines somewhat by it , but yet more might have beene made of it : and there is a just , and full improvement , when a man gathers the tree cleane , and leaves none of the fruite behinde him , so much as in the outermost branches . the richer and fuller the improvement is , the greater and higher is the acceptation frō god. this for the unfolding of the doctrine . we come ( in the second place ) to heape more of the authority of heaven upon the head of it , and to establish the truth of it with the testimony of more witnesses . that cōplaint of god himselfe concerning his people , together with that expression of the earnestnesse of his desire towards them this way , is a faire and full evidence , & confirmation hereof . for they are a nation void of counsel , neither is there any understanding in them . oh , that they were wise , that they understood this , that they would consider their latter end ! how should one of them chase a thousand , &c. oh that they were wise , and would consider their latter end , &c. this sheweth that god doth highly prize and accept this wisedome , and understanding in men and women , which makes them treasure up for themselves in heaven and become provident for their latter end . his soule longs ( as it were ) for summer fruit , to see his people fild with the spirit of this wisdome ; yea and professeth himselfe willing ( as it were ) to pay for this his longing , if hee might have it upon any termes . how should one of them chase a thou sād , &c. he would gladly hire men & women with the best of this world , to worke wisely for that which is to come . so our saviour in that passage of scripture , seems to be much takē , & ( to speak with due reverence ) to be even ravished , and transported out of himselfe , and cast into an extasie of joy , and holy contentment , upon the very mention of such a disposition , and wise behaviour , as we speake of , in mannaging and improving opportunities for heaven . let your loynes be girded about , and your lights burning : and ye your selves like unto men that waite for their master : and , blessed are those servants , whom the lord , when hee commeth shall finde waking . verily i say unto you , hee willgird himselfe about , and make them sit downe at table , and will come forth and serve them . by girding up the loynes and keeping their lights burning , watching , &c. hee meanes nothing else ( in effect ) but a diligent and carefull mannaging of the opportunities for heaven that were before them . now rather than such men as these should want honour , hee promiseth once more to forget his owne greatnesse , and to dispense with majestie : and will be found yet againe in the forme of a servant . i onely mention one testimony more from the scripture ( letting passe others without number , revel . . . &c. and to him that overcommeth , and keepeth my words unto the end , i will give power over nations . and hee shall rule them with a rodde of iron , and even as i received of my father . and i will give him the morning starre . this fame overcomming and keeping the words of christ unto the end , is nothing else ( being interpreted ) but the acting of the true greatnesse of spirit we speake of in the doctrine , which is seene in the taking hold of , and managing , the opportunities that lie for heaven , and carrying the affaires of his soule before him with a high hand . now of what acceptation this high and excellent streine of spirit is with the lord christ , is easie to judge , by those rich and glorious ingredients , that are put into the reward annexed thereunto . i will give him power over nations , &c. wee must not stand now to make valuation of the particulars : in the generall , they are things transcendently glorious : of this there is no question ; it were easie to make the pile of testimonies greater : but wee have the minde of god and of christ in the point wee labour for , abundantly already , wee come therefore ( in the third place ) to demonstrate the doctrine from the grounds and reasons of it . amongst many we shall onely make use of foure . first , god therefore highly approves this disposition we speake of in men , of minding and managing all advantages for heaven , this same lying out of the soule with all its strengh and all its might for making good the things of eternity , because hee hath given commandement that so it should bee , and so his voyce is obeyed in it . now this is a thing fully sympathizing and agreeing with that nature or disposition in god , wherby hee desires to see himselfe obeyed , and his will submitted unto by the creature , it is as marrow and fatnesse unto him , it is that wherein his soule delighteth . hath the lord ( saith samuel ) as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices , as in obeying the voyce of the lord ? behold , to obey is better then sacrifice : and to hearken , then the fat of rams . the reason of the great testimony given unto david ( and that by god himself ) that he was a man according to his owne heart , is said to be this , because hee would fulfill all his will. act. . . this is some of the sweetest and pleasantest wine he drinks from this great vine-yard of the world , which hee hath planted , to have his voyce obeyed , his will done by his creature . now that it is the will of god , that men should thus weather all their sayles for heaven , and carefully gather in all winds that blow to make that port or haven , it hath beene already sufficiently proved from the scriptures : if you desire to have this measure heaped up , and running over , take that of paul yet further . . tim. . . lay hold on eternall life . lay hold on it : but where is it , that a man may lay hold ? it passeth by us daily in the precious occasions and opportunities therof , and when these are taken hold of , and improved diligently , eternall life is laid hold of . as those two blinde men in the gospel laid hold on their naturall sight , when hearing that iesus passed by , they tooke the opportunity , and stood forth and cryed with might and maine : o lord , the son of david , have mercie on us . this for the first reason . secondly , because this making out for heaven , and mortality with a high hand , is the truest and most naturall and genuine streine or fruit of that principle of reason and understanding which god hath put into men : it is a mans wisedome ( as the scripture expression is ) to doe it . as on the contrary , to lay hold on this worlds good , as riches , honours , pleasures , &c. with a neglect or indifferencie about the great things of heaven , is ( in solomons phrase , eccles . . . ) to take hold on folly . i. e. to give out a mans selfe or his strength for the imployment of such things , as no man would doe , but hee that makes folly of his counsell . and so the holy ghost ( we know ) every where in the scriptures , calleth the neglect in men , about spirituall and heavenly things by the name of folly and foolishnesse , and sometimes of madnesse , and doubtlesse it is nothing else but the principle of reason imbased , degenerate , &c grown out of kinde altogether ; that makes this present world a stumbling block to men , in their way to heaven . and therefore for a man to decline it , or step over it , and in the very face and presence of all the desireable and pleasant things of the world , to goe forth in his might from day to day , to make all occasions and advantages for the things of eternity must needs bee the purest , and highest , and most exquisite strein of that soveraigne faculty of reason , or understanding in a man. it may bee you will here aske : but what is there in this to gaine approbation from god , especially in any such eminent degree ( as you seeme to imply ) if men bee wise and prudent for themselves , is god so taken or delighted herewith ? or is there any true excellencie or worth in such a thing ? therefore how is this any ground or reason of the point ? i answer , yes ( my brethren ) it is a matter of high contentment to the almighty creator of all things , to see the workes of his hands keeping the law of their creation , and duely acting the parts that are assigned , and given them in their severall courses and stations in the world , to behold them in the true , full , and compleate exercise of all those severall motions , properties , and faculties , wherewith hee hath enriched them according to their kinde . to see the sunne shining , the streames running , the birds flying , and all fruitfull trees bearing fruit in their kinde , the vine laden with grapes , the olive tree with olives , &c. is a sweete and holy contentment unto god : he beholds his own wisdom , goodnesse , and power , in the glasse hee hath made for that purpose . now as all other creatures have their specifical properties distinct every one from other ( with sutable operations belonging to them ) and it is the exercise or putting forth of that w ch is proper to every one by that creature whose it is , and not by another , that is so comely and gracefull in the creation , so pleasing unto god , as when every tree or plant , or seed brings forth fruit according to their kinde ( as the scripture speaketh , as when the vine bringeth forth grapes , the fig tree figges ( if vine and figge tree both should bring forth grapes and no tree figges , this would be a maime , or breach in the creation ) so is there given unto man a specificall excellencie of reason or understanding , not only distinct from , but in dignity farre above all indowments or properties of other creatures . and when hee walkes according to this principle , when hee guides his affaires with discretion and understanding indeed , when he seekes his chiefe good and happinesse in a way leading directly unto it ; now hee bringeth forth fruit in his kinde , and doth not degenerate into the disposition of the brutish creature that is beneath him ▪ and this is that that is so highly pleasing unto god. and hence it is , that the feare of god , and his service , and the add re●●●ment of the creature unto him , are stil commended unto us in scripture , under the name of wisedome , understanding , &c. and unto man he ( i. god ) said , the feare of the lord is wisedome , and to depart from evill is understanding . ( ieb . . . ) as if hee should have said , therefore holinesse , and the feare of the lord are required by god of the creature , because they are his wisedome or understanding , or because hee shall shew himselfe wise or understanding by the practice of them . and doubtlesse all duties whatsoever are comprehended in that one word of the apostle ( emphatically understood ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i. quit your selves like men . cor. . . and so the ground and reason of the wrath and heavie displeasure of god against loose and sinful men , is ever and anon certified under the name of foolishnesse . it is a people of no understanding , therefore hee that made them will not have mercie on them , and hee that formed them will shew them no favour . esay . . . implying that the only quarrell or controversie the creator hath against his reasonable creature , man , is the letting fall of that great and noble principle of his creation within him , his reason or understanding , or a suffering of that in its way of degeneration . a third reason of the doctrine , why this contending and striving for this incorruptible crowne of righteousnesse with so high a hand , should bee so highly approved by god , is : because such a man will take the god of heaven along with him in his way , will bee ready and able to doe great things for him on earth : such a man will make the altar of his god fat , and inrich the treasurie of his glory , will rejoyce over his lord and master , to doe him all the good hee can , to honour him with all hee hath ; will make the crowne of glory to flourish upon the head of iesus christ his lord : yea that man that is resolved indeed to quit himselfe like a man for the kingdom of heaven , & seeks it with his whole heart , is ready ( if it were possible ) to part with it when he hath obteined it , and bestow it upon him that hath given it unto him , if he stood in need of it : he that loves god like a god ( and heaven , or salvation , is nothing else upon account , but god injoyed in fulnesse , or to the height ) will bee willing to part with god , for gods sake , i. if his glory so required it ; and much more with all the world , as we see in paul : whereas hee that despiseth or hateth his owne soule ( as solomons expression is ) that under-prizeth the great things of eternity , that pincheth and spareth ( all that hee dares ) in his paines and indeavours , and is still afraid lest hee should doe too much , that is , ( in his owne interpretation ) any thing at all more then needs must , to bee saved : such a man will never bee but as a dry and barren wildernesse to the god of heaven : iesus christ will never be great of his making . hee that longs ( with any earnest longing ) to see his god face to face , will not be afraid to looke the divell and all the powers of darknesse , and all the terrible things of the world in the face : hee will make glorious pastime with lyons , and beares , and dragons , and be ready to plead the cause of his god in flames of fire . this is given for a reason why moses refused to bee called the sonne of pharaohs daughter , and chose rather to suffer affliction with the people of god , then to injoy the pleasures of sinne for a season ; to esteeme the rebuke of christ greater riches then the treasures of egypt . viz. because hee had respect to the recompence of reward : as if it had beene said , had hee not had a good minde to heaven , and beene resolute to take all opportunities and advantages that way , for the making good that great piece the world would have gained him in , and god and his christ should have lost the great and honourable service which hee did for them . this is a third reason . the fourth and last reason , why god so highly approves and accepts this labour and travell of the soule for heaven is , because such a man furnisheth him with fit matter to worke upon in that kinde of worke , wherein of all other hee is chiefely delighted , such a man is as fine clay in his hand ready prepared to make a vessell of honour . god may poure out abundantly of the riches of his bounty upon such a man in his reward , and make him as great in heaven , as he desireth : such a mans way and noblenesse of spirit will beare a great weight of glory , and that in such a way , and upon such termes that he that layeth it upon him , shall susteine no losse nor prejudice by so doing . for this is the case : the great and glorious god of heaven , hath abundance of heaven by him , and infinite treasures of glory , which burne in his hand ( as wee use to say ) and hee is pained ( as it were ) within himselfe till they bee bestowed according to his minde : and this must bee amongst the children of men . hee hath prepared and framed many crownes of glory , and he longs to finde heads to set them upon . the world furnisheth him very sparingly with such persons ; the fearfull , and unbeleeving and abominable , and lyars , &c. are not meete to weare them : he that hath made them will rather breake them in pieces againe , and stamp them to powder , then that they should ever come upon the heads of such ; hee cannot satisfie himselfe in such a disposall of them , nor make any thing ( to his minde ) of his bounty , if it should bee carried in such a way . such an excellent and wise workeman as god is , must not make any such loose or staring joynts ( as it were ) in any part of his providence and dispensation , as to joyne and put things together that have no aptnesse , meetnesse , or proportion , the one to the other , as a base earthly minded man or woman , and the undefiled inheritance of heaven , god will never put these together . but when he meets with fit subjects , with matter duly prepared to worke upon in this kinde , there is no kinde of work in all that infinite variety that passeth through his hand , wherein hee takes the like delight and satisfaction , as to bee heaping rewards upon the heads of his creatures , and to bee employing the treasures of the unspeakable riches of his bounty upon them . it is true , whatsoever god doth , he doth it like himselfe , and his workes are comely and beautifull in their kinde and season , and have faire impressions of the wisedome and righteousnesse of their great work-man upon them . but yet if we consult narrowly with the scriptures , wee shall finde that god is never more himselfe in any thing he doth , then in doing good to those that feare him , in rewarding and recompencing those that are capable of his magnificence in that way . he takes a delight in giving grace , in principling the hearts and soules of men from heaven to work righteousnesse , and to live holily , &c. againe hee takes great delight to see the fruits of this grace of his in men , to see men shining in holinesse of life and conversation , as lights in this present world . but yet he takes a greater and higher comentment then in both these , to reward and recompence the faithfull service of those that obey him : yea hee desires their holinesse , and service with speciall reference and subordination to these . this rewarding , and magnifying those that serve him , is that , that hath the ultimate , nearest , and most entire connexion with his glory . oh that my people had barkened unto mee ( faith the lord himselfe , psal . . ) and israel walked in my wayes ! why , what if god had had his wish or desire herein ? what would it have beene unto him ? oh yes , here had beene worke indeed for the gratious , and bountifull hand of god , here had beene an opportunity for him to have done great things for them , to have blessed , and prospered his people : oh this is ( as it were ) a second heaven to him , that is lord both of heaven and earth . i should soone have humbled their enemies , &c. and have fed them with the fat of wheate , &c. the great god would gladly have beene doing this way , that so heaven and earth might have rejoyced together . you may finde other scriptures of like importance , as esa . . . deut. . . &c. this for the fourth and last reason . the use of this doctrine is , first for confutation of that opinion ; which hath beene , and ( i beleeve ) still is maintained by some , viz. that it is a thing unlawfull and displeasing unto god , for any man to worke intuitu merceds , to doe , though never so well , with an eye to any reward , to provoke , or stir up himselfe to well doing by the consideration of the great wages of heaven , which god hath pitched , and covenanted with men upon it . they hold it not lawfull for any man to warme at this fire , or to saile with this winde . doubtlesse with more , and more dangerous superstition , than was in the doctrine of those teachers , who ( according to pauls repetition of the heads of their teaching ) taught their disciples saying . touch not , tast not , handle not , coloss . . if it be a thing unlawfull for a man to strengthen his hand in the worke of the lord by the remembrance , or expectation of the lords reward , certainly god himself hath taught men to do evill , that good may come of it , for hee often in the scriptures heapeth these coales of fire upon the heads of men , & teacheth our fingers to fight that good fight of faith , by holding forth the crowne of righteousnesse unto us . but because the whole carriage of the point ( in a manner ) hath beene a pregnant , and sufficient conviction of this errour , wee shall make no further waste of words or time about it . secondly , the point delivered , is serviceable also and usefull by way of instruction , and that chiefly in two particulars . first , it this close , and home following the sent of heaven , this pursuing eternall life , with all the strength and might of the soule , be a thing so much set by , so highly accepted with god , then may wee ( in a word ) take knowledge , and informe our selves from hence , that the coldnesse , and deadnesse , and generall indifferencie , that is found in farre the greatest part of the world this way , who seeke for heaven , as if they sought not , and runne for this crowne of life , as if they cared not to obtaine , is an abomination unto him , a sinne that will cause the wrath of god to smoake against him , that shall be found under the guilt of it . it is a piece of desperate forgery in the devill , to procure that sinne , to be strucken out of the roll , or catalogue of sinnes , which flayeth with the most certaine , and inevitable destruction , and taketh neerer and faster hold on hell , than a thousand other sinnes . how shall wee escape ( sayth the apostle , hebr. . . ) if we neglect so great a salvation ? implying scarce so much as a possibility of salvation unto those that shall bee loose hearted about the seeking of it , and yet how few are those , that know to make any sinne at all of that sinne , which is so neere of blood to that sinne of sinnes , that unpardonable sinne against the holy ghost ! murder , adultery , stealing , lying , drunkennesse , and such like , the consciences of many are somewhat shie of , as having affinity with hell indeed : but that sinne which carrieth eternall vengeance , and damnation in the mouth of it , that strikes the soule dead at the roote , this same casting the great things of jesus christ behind our backes , making them onely our second and subordinate care , this according to the scale of the world is little ( if any thing at all ) out of the way to heaven , men are loath to judge either themselves or others wicked men , for being never so indifferent , and cold herein . but if the god of heaven so highly magnifies the zealous streines of men and women , this way ( as wee have heard ) then must it needes follow ( by the rule of contraries ) that a superficiall perfunctory , and remisse minding , and looking after these things , lye in the same degree of abomination , and accursednesse unto him . againe , secondly , if this earnest contending , and laying out for heaven , be thus countenanced from on high , and approved by god himselfe : then observe wee likewise from hence , that which will abundantly justifie , and make good those wayes , and practises of the saints of god in the world , which are made obnoxious to much censure by many : and oft returned to the reproach of them that use them . as david saith , that when he wept , and chastised himselfe with fasting , it was turned to his reproach : so when any man sheweth any more noblenesse of minde , than others doe , for the great things of heaven , making it another manner of businesse than is ordinarily made of it in the world , and shall separate himselfe from pleasures , and lusts , and vaine recreations , and cōpany , through the desire of eternity , and shall intermeddle with all wisdome , and worke upon all advantages that may advance and set forward this great and honourable designe in his hand ; this is made matter of reproofe , and of a sore accusation against him , this way is every where spoken against by those that judge themselves wise and men of understanding in the world . these men thinke they have such a man at advantage enough , to cast dishonour , and to powre out contempt upon him : and as iudas censured the powring out of that alabaster box of oyntment upon the head of our saviour , saying . what needeth this waste ? implying that he on whom it was bestowed might have done well enough without it . so do many judge , and call it a superfluous expence , and waste of mans time , and paines , and estates , to be continually at this plough , to follow it so hard night and day , to make it a matter of charge , to make a labour and toyle of being saved , and going to heaven : whereas they can goe faire , and softly , and make merry by the way , they can make it a journey of pleasure , and recreation , and yet come safe thither in good time . men might be wiser ( say these ) and yet go to heaven too : fooles , and their pleasures are soone parted . now here is , i say , in the doctrine delivered , an apologie from heaven , an answer ( as it were ) put into the mouths of these men thus censured , which those that accuse them shall never be able to resist : an answer like solomons king upon his throne , against which there is no replying , no rising up : a shield and buckler put into their hands , under the confidence whereof , they may laugh all such censures , and accusations in the face to scorne . the lord jesus christ himselfe , hee approves of their way , he hath set to his seale , that their way is excellent , and commendable with the highest . it is god that justifieth ( saith paul in another case ) who shall condemne ? hee that hath god to justifie him , need never be affraid of him that shall condemne him . no man will dare to say , that christ spake foolishly , when he gave sentence on maries side , and pronounced that mary had chosen the good part : but suppose the blasphmy should be swallowed , and men will yet say that christ herein spake foolishly : yet we know what paul affirmeth , cor. . . that the foolisnesse of god is wiser than men . if the lord christ be risen up to speake in this case , shall not all the earth keepe silence before him ? in the third place , for reproofe . if it be a thing of this high esteeme , and approbation with the lord christ , to make it the great and solemne businesse of our lives , to be ingaged , body and soule , and all wee have , to gaine in a blessed eternity : then will this doctrine bee found a hard saying against two sorts of men . . those that will not come up to any such termes themselves , become of heaven what will. . those that forbid , or hinder such as would do it . for the first : doe not the hearts of farre the greater part of men and women , sit loose to this great businesse of heaven ? is there any other fighting the fight of faith amongst them , than as of men beating the aire ( as paul speaketh ) making a kind of flourishing onely , and pastime with their weapons , as if they had no enemy indeed in the field to encounter , or to fight against ? is there any other kinde of running in this race of christian profession amongst us , than as if men did not much care whether they obtained , or no ? a man might rather thinke , by the indifferency and coldnesse of the world , that christ had cast water , and not oyle upon this fire , that hee had reproved and taxed the world for being too forward this way , for beeing too busie with heaven , than any wayes sharpened the faces of men , or strengthened their hand , by such approbation as you have heard . where is there a man amongst many , whose heart is to the worke indeed ? who labors for this bread that perisheth not , as if it were bread indeed ? who stirs up himself night , and day , and provokes , and calls upon his heart , and soule , and all that is within him ( as david speakes ) to take sure hold on the covenant of eternity ? no : the generation of wise merchants , that will sell all they have to purchase the field , where the treasure lyeth , as well nigh perished from the earth : that incorruptible crowne of glory is no longer worth the striving for , according to the lawes propounded by him that holds it forth unto the world . heaven must come easie , or else it shall goe : rather than men will eate the bread of life in the sweate of their browes , they will venture perishing forever through the want of it . the hearts of men are sunke into the earth : the streames of their desires , and affections doe not stand upon heapes , and rise upwards , as sometimes the waters of the red sea did : the cares , and lusts , and pleasures of the world licke them up cleane , as the oxe licketh up the grasse : eating , and drinking , and gaming , and company keeping , building , and planting , and marrying , watching the uprising of new fashions , that wee may be vaine and proud with the first , sacrificing to mammon ( the great god of weake-hearted men ) these with the like , sucke out the heart , and strength of the soules of men , and there is onely a huske or a skinne left for heaven . men are resolved to seeke the things of this life , and to give large quarter to the flesh : if god wil cast in the kingdome of heaven unto them , as an overplus , they will take it , but they will not stand so strictly or peremptorily upon this : they will thorough with their bargain of the world however . things present must have the uppermost seate , and heaven must stand at the earthes footestoole . i say no more of this : but only advise men seriously to consider , that god hath a hell ( and that strong and terrible above measure ) to revenge the quarrell of his heaven , and those that care little to bee made meete to be pertakers with the saints in the inheritance of light , will be the fitter and better prepared for the darknesse of hell. secondly ( by way of reproofe also ) are there not many yet worse , and more abominable and accursed than the former , who like those scribes and pharisees , matt. . . ( upon whom our saviour spends so many of his woes ) shut up the kingdome of heaven against men , because they will neither goe in themselves , nor suffer those that are entring to goe in ? who going but on foote themselves , are still pulling others from their horses ? and driving heavily themselves towards heaven , would faine take off the wheeles from other mens chariots , that they might drive no faster than themselves ? as if they had a secret item , or propheticall instinct in their consciences , that such mens zeale , and fervencie of spirit in the things of heaven , will be there deeper condemnation one day before god : and therefore they will be first the condemnation of that ( if they can ) and will quench the life and power of it , that so if god should seeke for it against them , it might no where bee found . but these men are in the way of this wickednesse , as a wild bull in a net ( as esay speakes ) the more they struggle and teare themselves to get out , the more they are intangled , and further and faster in : the more they kicke at this greatnesse of spirit in the true borne saints of god , which discovers it selfe in making out an out-stretched arme for heaven , and bestowing themselves upon it , they do but increase their bands the more , and purchase them selves a double instead of a single condemnation . the saints shall judge the world , let the world turne it selfe which way it will , let it vexe , and rage , and teare it selfe in pieces : yea , and this judgement of the world by the saints will be the sorer , by how much more the world shall set themselves to judge the saints i have but this more to say to these men ( for the present ) he that will seek to stay or stop men in their speed to heaven , makes hast himselfe to destruction , and there shal be none to stay him . this for the third use of the point . reproofe . the fourth and last use is for exhortation , and that to two duties : wee shall onely touch upon the former . since this minding , and improving opportunities for heaven , hath this glorious testimony and approbation from him , who is the lord of glory : let us all be exhorted to arme our selves with the same minde ( as peter speaketh and resolve to take this great thought and purpose of heart to our selves this day , to shew our selves men ; yea , and ( if it were possible ) more then men , for the compassing that condition wherein we shall bee like to the angels : let us resolve to give out our strengh freely this way , and make no spare of any thing that is in our hand to doe . if rising early , or going to bed late will carry it , if treading the world under foote will doe it , if abstaining from fleshly lusts ( which fight against the soule ) will advantage us this way , if watching daily at wisedomes gates , and giving attendance at the ports of her doores will doe it , if crying unto god night and day will doe it , if doing whatsoever god commandeth us to doe , will doe it : let none of these things from henceforth bee grievous unto us : if the whole treasure of our might and strength will fetch it , let us not spare to the uttermost mite or farthing : let not heaven goe one way , and we another : resolve with your selves never to have divels , if you may have god and angels your companions at any rate . to give you some ease and inlargement of heart , that you may take in the words of this exhortation more willingly and freely , give mee leave to propound and presse ( a little ) a motive or two amongst many . first , consider that the great things of this world ( falsely so called ) houses , lands , silver , gold , honours , pleasures , &c. they are but for the short race , assoone as ever the winde of this present life passeth away ( bee it the houre next ) the whole world is gone with it . this night ( saith god to the rich man ) they shall fetch away thy foule ( i. thy life ) and then whose shall these things bee which thou hast provided ? implying that his they could bee no longer . shall not this consideration inlarge our hearts mightily to pursue the things of enternity w th might and maine , viz. that there is nothing else to pursue but the east winde ( as the scripture speaketh ) nothing but what is like the apples of sodom ( so much spoken of ) which so soone as a man toucheth , or layeth hand on , are vanished into dust . if the world were any thing that were able to stand in judgement or comparison , or would hold any proportion at all with the things of heaven : the heart of a man might bee put in some straight , and indure some conflict in it selfe , and so might bee overcome and carried aside in its choyce and resolution what to doe . but as that ancient father and martyr , when the persecuting emperour offered him time of consideration , to satisfie himselfe about sacrifising to his idols , had his resolution in a readinesse , saying that in retan sanctâ deliberatio non habet locum , that was not a point that admitted any deliberation . so if there were any thing of any moment , of any valuable consideration in the world , to set up in competition with the great things of heaven , it might cause some offence and stumbling in the mindes and thoughts of a man. if the world were any thing but what it is , a man might ( haply ) make a stand to aske himself the question , whether hee should indeed follow the things of the world , or the things of heaven . but now the things of the world being so unconceiveably light , & poore , and empty , and will scarce hold the handling with the hand , or the looking on with the eye , yea scarce the thinking upon with the heart : me thinkes the soule of a man should bee carried and driven , as it were , with a spirit of disdaine and indignation , quite off from the world , upon the face of heaven , neither turne yee aside ( saith samuel to the people ) viz. from serving and following god , for that would bee ( saith hee ) after vaine things that cannot profit you : implying , that it is one of the greatest grounds and arguments in the world , for a mans keeping close to god , to know and consider that there is nothing else to take up his heart , that is worth the looking on : there is nothing else to purchase but broken cisterns that will hold no water , and broken reeds that will run into a mans hand , instead of supporting him . alas ! all that the world gaines in the hearts and affections of men , that it exerciseth such power and command over our desires , is not by the meanes of any lovelinesse , strength , or power it hath in it selfe , but rather by meanes of the superstition of the dreames we dreame of it , by meanes of the lying imaginations of our hearts concerning it . and the truth is , heaven should have no such great victory or conquest of it , no such great honour done unto it , to bee never so much preferred or exalted in our desires and affections above it . secondly , consider , that as the things of the world have all their usefulnesse confined and limited to this present life of nature which wee live in the world : so is the time of this life altogether uncertaine , and little other then an unknowne nothing . the earth is a very slippery standing , to him that thinkes he stands fastest : the strongest mans foundation is but the dust ; these houses of clay , even those that are of the best building , are in danger of droping downe about our eares every houre . the lord that knowes our making , and the termes of our standing in the flesh better then our selves , gives us a perfect accompt thereof in this expression ( esa . . . ) when hee tels us that our breath is in our nostrils , when the passage is alwayes open , neither is there any doore to shut to keep it in : yea , the condition of it is such ; that the labouring or striving to keepe it in , is the next way to extinguish it , or to cause it to goe forth never to returne . therefore how infinitely doth it concerne us above all that can bee uttered or conceived , to belay and make sure for a building or house from heaven , lest our earthly tabernacle being dissolved on a sudden , wee should not have where to hide our heads from the fiery rage and tempest of the most insupportable wrath and vengeance of god for ever . as michal said unto david , when time was concerning the imminent danger of his life natural . if thou savest not thy selfe this night , to morrow thou shalt bee slaine : so it may bee the case of the best and greatest and youthfullest of us , that if wee deferre it a day longer , if wee will not even this now be perswaded to lay hold on eternall life , to morrow our soules may bee slaine with eternall death . thirdly ( and lastly ) to perswade you to raise your labours and indeavours for heaven to the highest , and to abhorre and tremble at all loosenesse , and low-spiritednesse that way , consider that heaven is a prize that is not to be gotten with dallying , or by looking another way , or minding other things : he that makes it not the great standing businesse of his life , will never carry it . thy bread will never bee eaten but in the sweat of the brow . there is a kinde of devill that will not out ( as our saviour tels us ) but by prayer and fasting : this devill will not goe , nor heaven come but upon great and high termes . know yee not ( saith paul to the corinthians ) that they , which runne in a race , runne all , but one receiveth the prize ; so runne that yee may obtaine ; cleerely implying that running it selfe will not carry this prize , except it bee a running indeed , a running after the manner of those that out-runne their competitors in the race : a man may go farre , and yet come short : we may doe much , and yet to little purpose . if a man strive for mastery ( saith the same apostle elsewhere ) yet is hee not crowned except he strive lawfully , i. except in striving hee observeth the lawes and conditions propounded and injoyned by him , that bestoweth the prize , and maketh the race . to say lord , lord , onely , i. to make profession of the service of god , and of subjection and obedience to iesus christ , is not the law or rule that god hath apointed for the races , wherein heaven is to be obteined : men must bee operative and active in doing the will of god which is in heaven , otherwise they are no company for him ( in that holy habitation of his glory . ) men must quit themselves like men on earth , or never looke to bee like angels in heaven . those crownes of righteousnesse and life will never goe at the low and base rates of delicacie , case , and sloathfulnesse . hee that degenerates and corrupteth himselfe with any of these , giveth hostages to the divell , that he will keepe him company , and be his second in the midst of the torments of hell for eternity . therefore strive to enter in at the narrow gate : yea , i say againe , strive to enter , the entrance will abundantly pay for the striving : but woe bee to him that shall not enter : and the same woe will bee to him that shall not strive . yet a little while , & the world that is present , will be the world that is past , and the world that is to come will bee the world present all the dayes of eternity . this for the third and last motive . concerning the deceased , a worthy gentlewoman , and precious piece of mortality shee was , whilst she lived ; and doubtlesse her name and memory deserve imbalming with the sweetest odours and spices after the manner of the dearest and chiefest saints of god. neverthelesse , it is not much that i shall speake of her ; my custome in this case of speaking sparingly , being as a thing consecrate unto me , i must not violate or sinne against it : neither was it the least of her commēdations , of whom we now speake , that shee affected that lesse then any , which shee deserved above most : i meane , praise and commendation , distinguishing spiritually in this point of her practice , as the apostle himselfe seemes to doe in his precept , phil. . . where hee injoynes men and women to thinke upon , and to follow the things themselves that are of good report : but for the report it selfe belonging as due to the things , hee speakes no word of minding that . doubtlesse , if ever there were either man or woman since maries time , that made maries choyce , shee was companion with them herein ; and did likewise : the way of her spirit and tenour of her life being a close example of that great rule of the apostle , for using this present world , as if wee used it not . . cor. . . the zeale of heaven , and of the salvation of her soule had even eaten her up . the delights and contentments of the world , which are wont deepely to ingage the affections of the daughters of men ( especially of her ranke and yeeres , being but about twenty sixe at her death ) and to steale away their hearts from their god , and from the noble and blessed contentments of heven , had little or no power over her : they entermedled little with her spirit : shee trod and trampled upon them with a foote of heavenly disdaine : her heart was soft and tender upwards ; but downewards towards the world hard as the neither milstone . when god spake , hee wounded her , the world cryed and shee regarded not . those cages of uncleane birds the common theaters or play-houses the shame and reproach , of the glorious profession of jesus christ amongst us , so much hanted by uncleane spirits , both of men and women ; to whom modesty and sobriety ( surely ) are a burden , and thither they goe for ease and deliverance , places , where if a man sought for company in the way to hell , hee may finde choyce of all sorts , where ( i had almost said ) a man may read whole pages of gods booke of reprobation : these ( i say ) with all their execrable appurtenances , the soule of this religious gentlewoman loathed and abhorred : they were the first-borne of abominations unto her . so for the costly vanity of apparell ( though shee sate by a fountaine where shee might have dranke her fill of these waters ) shee regarded it not : her usuall saying was : that shee did not love to bee talked of for her fine clothes . but especially that great goddesse of her sexworshipped with so much devotion , both by young and old , i mean fancie or fashion in apparell , she blasphemed . for richnes of furniture in her house another solemne temptation for her sex , to adde drunkennesse to thirst , superfluity to necessity , non contempsit sed neglexit ; shee did not so much contemne as neglect it . she did not affect or desire to have her face seene and beheld by others in the glasse of any such glory . shee was taken up with working out her salvation , and making robes of immortality for her soule . for the company and society of her delight , her heart went hand in hand ( as it were ) with davids heart in this : all her delight was in the saints on earth , and in those that were excellent that way . those that could speak the language of canaan , and discourse the waies of life unto her , and minister any wayes to her spirituall necessities , though the gold ring were wanting , and the costly apparell appeared not , were they persons of never so meane ranke and condition in the world ; yet were they a joy and rejoycing of heart unto her . as on the other hand , no earthly priviledge , no greatnesse in the world , no accomplishments of nature could make an attonement with her for light and loose , and unsavouble spirits , to cause her to take pleasure or contentment in them . the remembrance of that houre ( which hath now passed over her ) when shee should be called out of the world , wrought mightily in her , and gave her little liberty to minde other things : it cooled and quenched the inordinate heate of affection ( whereunto shee was by nature as incident as others ) to the things of this world . she would oft say , it was no light matter for men to appeare before god , to give an account of their lives . her manner was day by day to give the first of her strength every morning unto god , in lifting up her soule in prayer unto him : upon her awaking she was still present with him ( as david speaketh ) yea , when her strength beganne to be but labour and sorrow , by reason of her sicknesse ; yet did she not take an occasion hereby to intermit her daily sacrifice , or to behave her selfe frowardly in this covenant of her god. as long as she had any being though it were never so weake and feeble , her resolutions remained as strong as ever , to praise the lord. the very night before her death , she presented this sacrifice of prayer unto her god upon her knees . another dayly exercise , and breathing of her soule likewise was to converse with the minde and thoughts of god in the scriptures . her manner indeed was not to reade much at a time : but hereof she gave this conscientious reason , that shee desired to make that her owne which she read . so that it seemes still as shee read , shee writ it out in the tables of her heart . and so by the blessing of god upon her diligent , and constant labours this way , she had attained before her death a marveilous readinesse in the scriptures , and was able ( ordinarily ) to supply the defect of a concordance , and to assigne any clause or passage of scripture mentioned to her , to their proper place , both for booke and chapter . the house of god , and a golden showre from heaven in the ministery of the gospell , were the strength of her life , and the great consolation of her pilgrimage , her attention to the words of eternall life in the mouthes of gods messengers , was constantly so reverent , serious , and undistracted , that it was the observation , together with the rejoycing of some , that had communion with her in that ordinance , these spirituall clouds could never drop fatnesse , but she was still ready , if shee knew when the time of their dropping was , with the vessell of her soule to receive it . the lords day was a day of much observation unto her : she remembred to ●eepe it holy , and called it her delight . that which remained of it from publike duties , shee converted , with as little losse or waste as might be , into opportunities for private . her spirit was full of a sweete and gratious humility : it was no way grievous unto her , to make her selfe equall to those of the lower sort . a free and familiar companion shee was for all those that feared god , and that were partakers of like pretious faith with her . abundant shee was in workes of mercy , and lent much unto the lord : shee understood what silver & gold were good for , and gave them freely unto the owners . a woman she was of very tender bowels , and of overflowing compassions , to those that were in misery . in this course of life she was perfectly engaged , before that remembrancer of her mortality , that lingring sicknesse , that came to live and die with her , was sent unto her . god ( doubtlesse ) putting it into her heart , to prepare and strengthen the inner man , the time drawing neere , wherein her outer man , was to decay and perish . during the time of her sicknesse ( which continued some moneths upon her ) her carriage under the hand of god , was humble , and gratious , and with much submission . shee was in travell with the great birth of immortality , from the very entrance of her infirmity upon her : and ( i make no question ) but after all here other weakenesse , god gave her strength to bring forth that . she was much in prayer unto god by her selfe , in private , yet desirous also of the assistance of others , when opportunity served . her conference still was , upon that subject , or theme , wherof our saviour spake so much to his disciples immediately before his ascending up into heaven , viz. of the kingdome of god : and cared indeed little to speake of any thing besides . there were now and then some buddings of hope of amendment & recovery , which were soone nipp'd and blasted againe . but these hopes were no snares unto her : she went on with her preparations for heaven , and that with a high hand , until the god of her salvatiō said , it is enough . to relate all particulars would be as needlesse , as endlesse : i have detained you too long already . i have no more to say . a sweete , loving , and vertuous young woman shee was , meete for a patterne to her sexe and yeares , of piety , holinesse , and the feare of the lord. maries good part was her choice : and a joyfull resurrection ( doubtlesse ) will be her reward : where they to whom shee was deare in her life , walking in her steps , may expect the seeing of her the second time in communion and fellowship of the same glory with her . decemb. . . imprimatur t. wykes . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e ephes . . phil. . . gal. . . num. . . iudg. . . psal . ps . . . notes for div a -e deut. . . . luke . . heb. ii. . . . . sam. . . . sam. . ps . . . twelve considerable serious cautions, very necessary to be observed, in, and about a reformation according to the word of god. wherein diverse particular inconsistences with the word of god, very incident to reformations (so called) are briefly insisted upon, and argued from the word of god. / by john goodvvin, an unworthy servant of god in the gospel of his deare son. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) twelve considerable serious cautions, very necessary to be observed, in, and about a reformation according to the word of god. wherein diverse particular inconsistences with the word of god, very incident to reformations (so called) are briefly insisted upon, and argued from the word of god. / by john goodvvin, an unworthy servant of god in the gospel of his deare son. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by m.s. for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head alley., london, : . verso of first leaf contains apology and permission to print signed: john bachiler. annotation on thomason copy: "feb: "; second in imprint date crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng dissenters, religions -- england -- early works to . church renewal -- early works to . great britain -- church history -- th century -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no twelve considerable serious cautions, very necessary to be observed, in, and about a reformation according to the word of god.: wherein div goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion twelve considerable serious cautions , very necessary to be observed , in , and about a reformation according to the word of god . wherein diverse particular inconsistences with the word of god , very incident to reformations ( so called ) are briefly insisted upon , and argued from the word of god . by john goodvvin , an unworthy servant of god in the gospel of his deare son . beware of false prophets , which come to you in sheepes cloathing , &c. mat. . . judge not according to the appearance , but judge righteous judgement . joh. . . beware of men ; for they will deliver you up to the councells , and scourge you in their synagogues . mat. . . adulterum est , impium est , sacrilegum est , quicquid humano furore insutuitur , ut dispositio divina violetur . cypr. ep. l. . ep. . london , printed by m. s. for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head alley . . cautions necessary to be observed in and about a reformation according to the word of god . in the name of god begins all that is bad , was the complaint of many , in the dayes of popery . and if men be carnal and unworthy in their end , the machiavillian directs them , agant sua vota sub illo ; let them take the name of god , and of religion , to make a covering for their nakednesse . there is none like to this . am i now come up ( saith rabshakeb ) without the lord against this land to destroy it ! the lord said unto me , go up against this land and destroy it . the jewes pretended they had a law ( meaning from god himself ) for the putting his own son jesus christ ( god blessed for ever ) to death . wee have a law , and by our law he ought to die : even as some men now have a reformation , and that from god , or according to the word of god , by which the faithfullest servants of god ought to be molested , and the light of the purest worship of god put out . but if the hot-pressers of reformation in these dayes , have not an heart and an heart , but are regular , single , and sincere-ended in their motions , and really intend and desire to make all things according to the pattern in the mount , i mean according to the word of god ( the most unquestionable and least-ensnaring clause in all that solemn covenant , which they adore as if it were {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the contrivement of god , and not of man ) they shall consult this honour , and a name of integrity to themselves for ever in this noble enterprise , if they will be carefull to advance by the way of these cautions following : but if they shall ( especially willingly and knowingly , and most of all , if consultedly ) digresse and sin against them , as the lord liveth , the soule and spirit of their designe is no reformation according to the word of god , no nor yet according to the example of the best reformed churches ; but accorcording to the exigency of secular interests , and the inspiration of the accommodations and good things of this world . caution first , they who intend a reformation according to the word of god , must take heed of admitting human passions into their consultations : for ( as in james his divinity ) the wrath of man worketh not the righteousnesse of god , i subjects a man to an incapacity of doing that which is truly agreeable unto his will ; so is it as true of other distempers also , as of envie , covetousnesse , ambition , &c. neither do any of these ( much lesse all them in conjunction ) work the righteousnesse of god , in this sense : but are as hostages given to satan , to secure him , that they mean no ill to him or his kingdome . the tenor , nature , and frame of the word of god , are of a pregnant antipathy against all these , and such like inordinacies in the hearts of men ; and are bent with an high hand , to oppose and contradict all their motions , actings and proceedings whatsoever . therefore most certain it is , that such a reformation which is calculated for the meridian of these , or any of them , and the face of it set , either for the molestation of such persons with whom we are offended , or whose honor or peace we envie , or for the enriching or exalting our selves in the world , is not , cannot be according to the word of god . no man ever made hoops or bowes of timber that was streight , according to the naturall growth or streightnesse of it ; but were fain to use art , or force , or both , to destroy these , to make those commodities . caution secondly , a reformation according to the word of god , must not be obstructive , much lesse destructive to the comfort and peace of the children and servants of god , who worship him in spirit and truth . do not my words ( saith god himselfe by his prophet a ) do good to him that walketh uprightly ? therefore what reformation soever grieveth the soule , and makes sad the spirit of the generality of those in a land , who walk uprightly in the sight of god , it is a certain signe and evidence against it , that it is quite besides , and not according to the word of god . and if the inward and essentiall frame or constitution of the word of god , be such , as to make it the joy and rejoycing of the heart of godly ones b ; doubtlesse whatsoever is either acted or projected in conformity to it , must needs hold the like correspondence with them . never was it heard to this day , that a reformation according to the word of god , was ever burdensome or grievous to the most considerable part of religious persons , amongst whom it was advanc'd , or set up . caution ly , they who desire to reform according to the word of god , must beware of putting any such ingrediēt into their reformatiō , wch is ( or is like to be ) obstructive to the course of the gospel , or to the propagation of the truth amongst men . we can do nothing ( saith the apostle ) against the truth , but for the truth ; a meaning , that neither he , nor any of his fellow-apostles , had any power or authority from god , to act any thing in prejudice to the truth , or to the suppression or hindering the out-goings of that into the world . and ( thes. . . ) he desires the thessalonians to pray for him , that the word of the lord may run , or , have free course , and be glorified , even as it was with them . therefore , certo certiùs , such reformers , who say unto men excellently gifted by god , and affectuously inclin'd by god , and ardently desired of men , for the work of the ministery , preach not in that name b except you will preach in our name also , except you will acknowledge in us a power to give you leave to preach , and a power to restrain you from preaching , and be willing to receive neither you nor we can tell what , by our imposition of hands upon you ; such reformers ( i say , the second time ) that calculate and modell their reformation upon such terms , that either the precious souls of thousands must starve , or else the precious consciences of those that should feed them , be brought into a snare , and so defiled , well may they reforme by some other rule , but their according to the word of god , they leave for others . caution fourthly , they which intend to reform according to the word of god , must not call that common or unclean , which god hath sanctified or cleansed : what god hath cleansed ( saith the voyce from heaven unto peter ) call not thou common c . and the apostle paul by commission from heaven ; i will therefore ( saith he ) that men pray every where , lifting up , &c. so then , god having sanctified the whole world , and every corner and place of it for his saints to worship him in they that by a strong hand seek to bring them back again , either to this mountain , or to jerusalem to worship d , that will allow the saints no other places as lawfull to worship god in ( at least publikely ) but those only , concerning which , the greatest question is , whether they of all others , be sanctified or no ; and which the judgements and consciences of many thousand of the saints look upon , as exceptions from gods generall rule of sanctification in this kinde ; these without all controversie or question , shape their reformation , rather secundum usum sarum , then according to the word of god . fifthly , they who would have this golden motto , according to the word of god , written as well in the heart , as in the face of their reformation , must be free from all collaterall ingagements unto other patterns besides this word of god ; they must not suffer themselves to incline , no , not so much as a dust in the ballance amounts unto , to any reformation of any other church or churches whatsoever , further then they are reformed according to the same word . be ye followers of me ( saith the apostle ) even as i also am of christ . a the best patterns and examples under heaven , are but seducers , in what they fall short of , or besides , the word of god . the injunction from heaven is very particular and expresse : see that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed unto thee in the mount b . and ezek. . . thou son of man , shew the house to the house of israel , that they may be ashamed of their iniquities , and let them measure the pattern , &c. viz. to build with all possible exactnesse of conformity to it . now then , when reformers shall look partly upon the word of god , partly upon other reformations , wherein it is a thousand to one , but there is some flesh , as well as spirit , they must needs ( upon the supposition ) bring forth a party-coloured reformation , as labans sheep brought forth speckled and spotted lambs , by looking upon the pilled rods which jacob presented them with , at the time of their conception c . but what if we be bound by covenant and oath , to reform , as well according to the examples of the best reformed churches , as according to the word of god ? i answer : doubtlesse , no man ever covenanted , or sware , to reform according to the example of any church , or churches whatsoever , in opposition to the word of god : or if they did either , they have cause to abhor themseves in dust and ashes for it . and to reform with them , or according to their example , in concurrence with the word of god , is nothing but what every man stood bound in conscience unto , whether he had covenanted or sworn it , or no . so that covenanting or swearing to reforme according to the examples of the best reformed churches , as well as according to the word of god , doth no wayes bind any man to regard or minde their reformation for matter of example or imitation further then this comports with the word of god ; and thus farre , they who reform according to the word of god , must necessarily follow their example , at least materially , and so cannot falsifie in the least with their covenant and oath . sixthly , the sons of such a reformation as hath been oft named , must beware of separating between mens spirituall and temporall conveniences , when god by his providence hath graciously joyned them together . what therefore god hath joyned together , let no man put asunder , d ( saith our saviour . ) the rule or precept is generall , ( though given upon a speciall occasion ) and ought to take place ( especially ) in all things which concern the comfort and peace of men . if so , how can that reformation be according to the word of god , which shall either force men from their dwellings , the conveniencie whereof affords them , and theirs , the best of their subsistence in the world ; or else from their relation unto such a minister or pastor , by whom god is pleased to blesse them in their spirituall estate , incomparably beyond what they have any ground to expect from that pastor they must in such a case subject themselves unto ? yea , or which shall interdict the precious souls of men their spirituall accommodation from the hand of such pastors , who want the eyes , and tongues , and hands of other men , and so can neither see , nor say , nor do many things , which they can ; and yet may be eminently serviceable in the work of jesus christ , and peculiarly gifted for the edification of such and such men ? a reformation according to the word of god , must not sacrifice the comforts of the people of god , upon the service of the credits or advantages of their ministers . the people were not made for ministers , but ministers for the people . caution seventhly , a reformation according to the word of god , must be like a bishop or minister according to the word of god ; that is , no striker , no brawler a , must not strive , but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach , patient ; in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves , if god peradventure , will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth b . therefore certainly that reformation which is froward , rough , peremptory , impatient , imperious , and will gather where it hath not strewed , and reap where it hath not sown , exact obedience and subjection from those , to whom it hath not effectually taught or perswaded obedience and subjection , nor ever gave any tolerable account unto truly conscientious and considering , and disinteressed men , of any worthinesse in it , why it should be submitted unto ; but shall rather obstruct its accesse to the judgements and consciences of such men , by advancing it self by wayes , and methods , and practices that savour more of the subtilty of the serpent , then the simplicity of christ ; doubtlesse ( i say ) such a reformation , which commends it self unto the world upon no better terms then these , cannot be judg'd a reformation according to the word of god by any , except those , who either suppose gain to be godlinesse , or the resolutions of synods the word of god . caution eighthly , a reformation worthy this crown of glory , i mean to be named a reformation according to word of god , must take heed of eating flesh , to the offence of a weak brother ; i mean , of pleasing , humoring gratifying , inriching the strong , and those that think they know all things , to the grieving , anguishing , afflicting of those that are weak , and not able to see this name of mysterie , written in the forehead of it , according to the word of god . it is good neither to eat flesh , nor to drink wine , nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth , or is offended , or is made weak . hast thou faith ? have it to thy self before god , &c. a but when ye sin so against the brethren , and wound their weak conscience , ye sin against christ . wherefore if meat make my brother to offend , i will eat no flesh whilest the world standeth , lest i make my brother to offend b therefore that reformation , which shall tread and trample under foot the weak and tender consciences of the brethren , for whom christ dyed , like clay and mire in the streets , taking no pity nor compassion on them , that it may recompence the contrivers of it with flesh to eat , and wine to drink , and make their faces to shine in the world , is ( doubtlesse ) no reformation according to the word of god , except it be the word of the god of this world . caution ninthly , that reformation which the word of god will own , as conform to it , must take heed , either of gathering or scattering with satan , and be carefull to do both the one and the other , both to gather and to scatter with christ : must be a tender and nursing-mother unto all , not a bloody cruel stepmother to any the churches of christ . he that is not with me , ( saith christ ) is against me : and he that gathereth not with me , scattereth abroad c and the apostle paul : besides those things that are without , that which cometh upon me daily , the care of all the churches . therefore that reformation , which is so far from taking care for all the churches of christ , that it cannot subsist ( with any tolerable contentment ) without the dissolution and ruine of many of these churches , & those of the most apostolical & christian building , is no reformation according to the word of god , except the word of god be divided against it self , and destroyeth that , which it buildeth up . some impeach that reformation which gathereth churches out of churches , as a reformation , over which the scripture rejoyceth not , nor yet countenanceth . and do these men think , that yet it will rejoyce over , or countenance such a reformation , which scatters and ruines churches of christ into no-churches at all ; and that saith to the saints sweetly combined in church-fellowship , and walking together with love and peace in the ways and worship of the true god , be ye scattered into the four winds of the heavens , and go and serve other gods ? caution tenthly , that reformation which glorieth as being according to the word of god , must not be partiall , or a respecter of persons : must not absolve the lesse , and condemne the more innocent . i charge thee before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels , that thou observe these things without preferring one before another , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , doing nothing by partiality b my brethren , have not the faith of our lord iesus christ , the lord of glory , with respect of persons c . therefore that reformation wch justifieth those , who professe they know god , but deny him ( and that most notoriously ) in works ; but falls heavie upon those who make no such hypocriticall profession , but rather ingenuously professe and acknowledge their doubts & scruples in things appertaining to the knowledge of god , and withall are far more regular and christian-like in their conversation , holds no other then a diametral correspondence with the word of god . for doubtless , he that saith he beleeves that there are three persons and one god , and yet gives demonstrative testimonies ( or be it but strong presumptions ) against himselfe , that he indeed and in truth neither beleeves the one nor the other , is a far greater offender , and consequently deserves a far greater punishment then hee who beleeving neither , professeth accordingly . therefore that reformation which shall punish men , and that with greater severity , not for not beleeving , but for not professing to beleeve , or for professing not to beleeve that which indeed they do not beleeve , and shall connive at , or passe over with some light censure , those that shall abuse heaven and earth with their dissimulation in this kind , and shall only say or professe , that they beleeve so or so , though it be as cleare at the sun , that they indeed and in truth beleeve no such thing : such a reformation ( i say ) that shal be thus importunely and unconscionably partiall , holds no good quarter with the word of god . caution eleventhly , that reformation which pretends to that badge of honor of being a reformation according to the word of god , must not seek to advance and lift up it selfe in the world by unrighteousnes , by speaking evill , especially untruly , and against its own conscience , of the saints & servants of the most high god put them in mind ( saith the apostle ) to speak evill of no man , to be no brawlers , but gentle , shewing all meeknesse unto all men a the cretians are alwayes liers , evill beasts , flow bellies b , &c. yee shall not steale , nor deale falsly , nor lie one to another c . for he said , surely they are my people , children that will not lie e . lie not one to another f , &c. but if yee have bitter envying and strife in your hearts , glory not , and lie not against the truth g but the fearfull and unbeleeving , — and all liers , shall have their part in the take which burneth with fire and brimstone , &c h . therefore if any thing be vero verius , more true then truth it self , true it is in this degree , that that reformation which shal take satans office out of his hand , and turn accuser of the brethren , & love all devouring words i , that shal not spare the names or reputations of those who are as the apple of gods own eye , & whom he seeks to commend unto the world as glorious in their generation , and more excellent then their neighbours , and witnesses of the truth , but shall consult with the powers of darknes , & oracles of hell , by what calumnies , reproaches , slanders , untruths , to set the world on fire with hatred and indignation against them , yea and shall still , oleum addere camino , write book upon book , book upon book , now a treatise & then a treatise , to grind all the credit and interest that such men have in the world , to powder ; and all this to make it selfe a footstool , whereby to ascend into its throne ; a reformation ( i say ) that seeks to build it self an house with such polluted stones as these , certainly doth not build with god , nor god with it : the word of god knowes no such art of building as this . caution twelfthly ( and lastly ) a reformation that would not be flattered , and yet be stiled , a reformation according to the word of god , must give leave to the wind to blow where it listeth ; and give liberty to the spirit of god to do with his own what he pleaseth ; to make what discoverie of truth he pleaseth , and to what persons , and when , and where he pleaseth ; and must not confine him to his market , or compel him to traffique only with councels and synods for his heavenly commodities . the wind bloweth where it lusteth &c a friend , i doe thee no wrong , — take that which is time own , and go thy way , i will give unto this last as much as to thee . is it not lawfull for me to doe as i will with mine own ? is thine eye evill because i am good b ? and after six dayes , iesus taketh unto him peter , and iames , and iohn ( so that the major part of the twelve were passed by in this dispensation ) & carrieth the up into an high mountain alone , & his shape was changed before them , and his rayment did shine , &c. c therefore that reformation which asserts the authority of councels , synods , assemblies , major parts of men , as infallible , against the light , judgement , apprehensions , either of particular churches , or men , or that restrains the ministers of the gospel from declaring unto men the whole counsel of god , and in some things the truth of the counsel of god concerning their salvation , that condemns as hereticall , the works , writings ; tenets , of sober , learned , pious , and conscientious men , onely because an inconsiderable number of men , ( for so is the number of , , , in comparison of those that are judicious , learned , and pious in a great and flourishing kingdome ) imagines ( it may be , only dreams ) them to be inconsistent with the scriptures ; or that shall subject the world ( and indeed the glory of god himselfe ) to such hard and miserable terms , as that men shall not publickly reap or tast of the pretious fruit of the gifts , parts , knowledge , wisdome , learning , which god hath liberally bestowed upon many thousands in a nation , but only according to discretion , and at the allowance of a very small parcell of men ; ( and those it may be , not of the greatest abilities neither , for discerning ) when either the alcoran of the turks , or the missall of the papists shall appeare to be according to the word of god , then may such a reformation as this hope to partake of the same honour also . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- in nomine domini incipit omne malum . esa. . . john . . james . a mica . . b jer. . . a cor. . b act. . . . c acts . . d joh. . . a cor. . . b heb. . . c gen. . , . to violate an abominable and accursed oath , out of conscience unto god , is an holy and blessed perjury . d mar. . . a tim. . , . b tim. , , . a rom. . , . b cor. . , . c mat. , . sam. . . b tim. . . c iam. . . a tit. . . b tit. . . c lev. . . e esa. . . . f coloss. . . g iam. . . h rev. . . i psal. . . a iohn . . b matth. . , . c mark . . . a defence of the true sence and meaning of the words of the holy apostle, rom. chap. , ver. , , in an answer to sundry arguments gathered from the forenamed scriptures by mr. iohn goodwin, which answer was first dispersed without the authors name, but since acknowledged by mr george walker : together with a reply to the former answer, or, animadversions upon some of the looser and fouler passages thereof / by iohn goodwin. walker, george, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing w ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing w estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : or : ) a defence of the true sence and meaning of the words of the holy apostle, rom. chap. , ver. , , in an answer to sundry arguments gathered from the forenamed scriptures by mr. iohn goodwin, which answer was first dispersed without the authors name, but since acknowledged by mr george walker : together with a reply to the former answer, or, animadversions upon some of the looser and fouler passages thereof / by iohn goodwin. walker, george, ?- . goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. s.n.], [london : . "published by a lover of the truth and peace." published by john goodwin. cf. dnb. this item is identified as wing d (number cancelled in wing nd ed.) at reel : and as wing w at reel : . copy at reel : is imperfect: t.p. illegible. reproduction of originals in the union theological seminary library and the bodleian library. eng goodwin, john, ?- . bible. -- n.t. -- romans iv -- commentaries. a r (wing w ). civilwar no a defence of the true sence and meaning of the words of the holy apostle rom. chap. . ver. . . . in an answer to sundry arguments gather walker, george d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the trve sence and meaning of the words of the holy apostle rom. chap. . ver. . . . in an answer to sundry arguments gathered from the forenamed scriptures , by mr. iohn goodwin : which answer was first dispersed without the authors name , but since acknowledged by mr george walker . together with a reply to the former answer ; or , animadversions upon some of the looser and fouler passages thereof . by iohn goodvvin , pastor of colemanstreet london . to every time there is a season , and a time to every purpose under the heaven , ecclesiastes . . a time to weepe , and a time to laugh ; a time to mourne , and a time to dance . verse . a time to keepe silence , and a time to speake . verse . a time to love , and a time to hate ; a time of warre , and a time of peace . verse . published by a lover of the truth and peace . printed in the yeare . to the reader . epistles of this nature , are ●●usually swel'd up to their proper bulke with large commendations , either of the workes , ( to which they are prefixt ) or of their authours , or of both . i intend to wave this custome , though having a sure foundation , and fitting materialls , to build as sumptuous a structure in this kinde , as others have done in the like cases . yet thinke not , that this intention procedes from an unwillingnesse to pay that tribute of praise , which is justly due to the name of any man : i acknowledge the equitie of the apostles precept , to render honour to whom honour doth belong : it comes rather from an indisposition , publiquely to meddle in this great controversie , ( wherein the whole world stands ingag'd ) viz to whom this golden apple is to bee given ; on whose head this crowne of honour is to be set . whom o●e man approves , another dislikes ; whom a third doth reverence , a fourth disdaines : and such is our weakenes , and partiallitie in judging , that no perfect agreement can be expected , till the revelation of the righteous judgement of god , who shall render to every man according to his deedes . i shall not therefore endeavor to steale away the heart of any man , after the authour of the reply , or his opinion , by speaking high and excellent things of him : all that i will say , is onely this , i wish him as much honour and respect from the world , as hee is worthy of , which ( i am perswaded ) is more then he lookes for , and as much as his greatest adversary can justly chalenge : but to give in the full estimate , or precisely to set downe , what is his due above his fellowes , i am unwilling , but far more unable ; yet something i could doe this way , and i can hardly resist the strength of my provocations hereunto , but i forbeare ; not that i dread mr. walkers thunderbolts , to be censur'd by him as a rude impudent , socinian sectarie : but because i desire that mr. goodwins reputation might bee rais'd in none , by any other engine , then by a reall and evident conviction of his deservings : for though to thinke well of those we know not , is counted charity ; yet to applaud , and admire any , upon no surer ground then the generall vote , is folly , and may prove dangerous : the wombe of our times hath beene too abundantly fruitfull with instances herein many have we seene cast upon perplexing inconveniences , and some yoaked with desperate errours , and that by those whose persons they have ignorantly wondred after and i am perswaded , that many tenents in religion ( which are now confidently given , and greedily received as wholesome foode ) would hardly downe , were they not wrapt up in the sweet fame of such or such mens names . i would not that truth her selfe were entertayned upon such termes : certainely she accompts none her true subjects , but those onely , who are brought under her scepter , by the love of her commanding beauty ; not by the parts , learning , holinesse of her choysest agents . concerning the reply ( here presented to thy consideration ) i gather thus much from the authours words : that it was a worke of recreation , not of labour ; and therefore no marvell , if it came into the world with a smiling countenance : and though in this respect , it may be judged by some unlike its father , who is of a wonderfull grave and sober temper ; yet upon a strict view , many of his lyneaments are to bee seene in the face of it ; i meane , soundnesse of judgement , quickenesse of wit , fairenesse of carriage , yea and mercy too towards his adversary : for had he strucke him in every place , where hee found him naked , hee had left him so blacke and blew , that even mr. walkers friends would hardly say , this is hee . if any shall except , against the manner of managing this warfare , and censure his expressions as too light , to hold out with the weightinesse of his matter ; i referre such for satisfaction to his owne preface . as far as i understand , no wiser course can be taken , to charme downe the spirit of anger into sobernesse , then to deale with it in a pleasant way : whether mr. walker doth strongly sympathie with this turbulent passion , none will question , but such as are strangers to his dealings : and i verily beleeve , when the authour put his reply into this dresse , he had respect to him alone , to whom he privately sent it , not once deeming ( as i conceive ) that ever it should be look't upon by so many , and such juditious eyes , as it is now likely to fall under . for it is probable , that neither he nor mr. w. when first they joyned their heads and pens together for the framing of these tracts , entended to scatter them aboad by the hand of the presse . indeede mr. walker when he received the reply , promised the messengers to print both that , and his owne answer ; which had beene faire , and worthy the man , he would bee taken to be . but wh●le the performance thereof was expected , he brings into the world , a confused medley of the strangest s●cianisme and christianisme , that was ever heard of . by what figure hee will bee able to salve the breach of his promise , i cannot guesse ; though hee hath forc't them to doe him service ( as hee conceives ) elsewhere , yet i much feare they will here all faile him : for through the whole comp●sse of that his discourse , i can here nothing of the r●ply ; i confesse he onely mentions a scrurrilous lybell fraught with lies , forgeries , absurdities , contradictions , blasphemies , sent forth under the name of a reply : but i can harly perswade my selfe that he would so farre abuse the world , as to make it beleeve , that by this lybell hee meanes mr. goodwins reply . but if his passion so farre transported him beyond his intellectualls , as to charge so innocent a peece with such capitoll crimes ; i pittie the man ; and expect its discharge from the hands of such as are not infested with so mortall an enemie unto reason . nor hath hee kept touch with his promise about his owne answer : for though the most part hereof may bee gathered from thence , yet is it made so unlike to what it was , by adding some thing , and substracting others ; that in consideration hereof , it was thought requisite , to print it in that very shape , in which it came at first from betweene his hands , ( for to this alone hath the reply reference ) and to couple both it and the reply in one volume . i am consious of no other designe , that the publisher propounded to himselfe , but onely this : to cleare the reply and the authour of it , from those false and foule imputations of lying , forging , &c and to wash off from the face of that truth , they pleade for , those blacke coullers of socinianisme , and arminianisme , which mr. walkers pencill hath drawne over it ; that appearing to the eye of the world out of his cloathing ; their innocency might bee acknowledged in the judgements and consciences of reasonable men . the accomplishment of which designe , will ( i dare say ) satisfyingly recompence his cost and labour ; and inlarge his heart towards the god of peace and truth , who hath given successe to so just , so pious , so commendable an undertaking . farwell . an epitome of mr. walkers answer . or a speciall receipt by a moderne divine against the dangerous infection of an orthodox truth . recipe . folio's or leaves of papyrus , as close written as may well be read . sosinus and arminius well beaten together , and strained through a course boulter of an english discourse : a handfull of good scriptures carelesly gathered , and well steeped in the standing water of a new laid interpretation . add hereunto two or three hebrew roots : of reading a sufficient quantity : of learning about a third part : of the hearb called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in engling lack-love , leaves ( at the least ) of blacke tongue-wort some fifteene slips : of tropes and metonymies gathered where they never grew as many as you can come by : of the drugg called diabolico-pseudo ▪ lobetico ounces : of the simple called insultory or assafetidea as much : of the sweet and savory hearb discretion , halfe a scruple . let all these bee made up into the body of a discourse and swallowed downe without chewing upon a full stomacke , and take heede of drinking any sound interpetation after them , and there is little feare that the truth will ever doe you any harme . probatum est . reader , if thou had'st rather take a little paines , then be angry ; i desire thee to releive the printer with thy pen , and to reforme thy booke , before thou readest it , according to these subsequent directions . in the preface . page : line . for , serapp . r. scrap . p l. . for , present , r. pleasant . l. . for , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . p. . l. . for , passages r. pages . p. . l. . for , discrologie , r. aischrologie . l. . for , messenger , r. messengers . l. . for , magnificant , r. magnificent . in the discourse . p. . l. . for corponeris , r. còmponens p. . l. . for opinion any , r. opinion , that any . p. . l. . for , divinity ( who , r. divinity at leyden ( who . ibid. for , of judgement , r. of that judgement . p. . l. . for , urge a little , r. urge . a little . p. . l. . for , defended , here , r. defended , &c. here . l. . for , word , discourse , r. wordie disco●se . l. ult. for , too , r. to . p. . l. ult. for , misperisiar , r misprision . p. . l. . for , our , r. owne . p. . l. . for , no satisfaction , r. no such satisfaction . p. . l. . for , this is , r. is this . p. . l. . for , first . r. fullest . p. . l. . for , saith further , r. saith he further . p. . l. . for , skill , r. still . p. . l. . for , promises , r. premisses . p. . l. . for , justification , r. or free justification . p. . l. . for hihobular , r. triobular . p. . l. . for , black , in so , r. so black and . p. . l. . for , neighbours , r. neighbour . p. . l. . for , mee , r. men . p. . l. . for , contradiction , r. contradictions . p. . l. . for , belived , r. beleeving . p. l. . for , not for , r. not of us for . p. . l. . for , to speak , r. to speak to . p. . l. . for , interpres , r. interpretesse . p. . l. . for , censured , r. conceived . a defence of the trve sence and meaning of the words of the holy apostle rom. . v. . where it is said , that abraham beleeved god , and it was counted to him for righteousnes : and v. . to him that beleeveth his faith is counted for righteousnesse : and v. . for we say that faith was reckoned to abraham for righteousnes . the true sence and meaning of the holy apostle in these speeches , according to the common judgement of the most godly , learned , and judicious divines of the best reformed churches , is this ; that upon abrahams beleeving the promise of god , that god would be his shield , and exceeding great reward ; and that god would raise up out of his loynes the blessed seed ( christ the redeemer ; ) in whom all the elect and faithfull of all nations being gathered unto god , and by one spirit baptised , and united together into one spirituall body with him their spirituall head ; and made lively and sensible partakers of his perfect obedience , righteousnesse , and full satisfaction for redemption , remission of sins , justification and perfect salvation should become abrahams faithfull seed , and partakers of the same reward , and should wee more seeke the reward of blessednesse , by the righteousnesse of their owne workes , performed according to the tenour of the law in every mans owne person , but in the lord iesus christ who is the iehovah zidkenu , the lord our righteousnes , and god . the lot and portion of every true beleever ; upon abrahams beleeving of the promise , and firmely without staggering applying to himselfe this blessing promised , and upon his full perswasion that god who promised out of his free grace , was by his power able to performe though he by course of nature , and by reason of the deadnesse of sarahs wombe , seemed and indeed was uncapable of that blessing ; god the lord counted this to him for righteousnesse , that is , accepted and accounted him for a righteous man , as indeed he was not for any workes of his owne , or by any righteousnesse performed in his owne person according to the law , but by the righteousnesse of faith ; that is , the righteousnesse of christ apprehended and applyed by faith , for being thus justified by faith , and having this communion with christ of his full satisfaction and righteousnesse , god becomes in christ our sheild and exceeding great reward . the corrupt exposition of the apostles wordes , by the hereticke socinus , and his followers the arminians , and other fanaticall sectaries . they all hold and obstinately affirme , that abrahams beleeving and his faith ( taken in a proper literall sense without any trope ) was counted to him for righteousnes instead of all righteousnes , which either abraham him selfe in his own person , or any surety in his owne person , or any surety in his behalfe , could performe to the law of god ; and upon these words thus wrested ; they build all their hereticall doctrines and opinions , concerning justification of the faithfull before god , to wit ; first , that faith as it is in every beleever a guift of god , even as it is inherent in him , and is his owne faith and beleeving , is the onely thing which god of his grace and mercy , and out of his absolute sovereigne power , and dominion is pleased to ordaine , appoynt , and account for all the righteousnesse which a man shall have for his justification , though in truth and in strictnesse of the law , and according to the rule of justice it is no righteousnes ; being weake oftentimes and full of infirmities . that the spirit of god by the apostle in these words , did not intend or meane any of the communion of the righteousnes and perfect obedience performed by christ to the law as our surety and in our stead , nor any imputation of that righteousnes to every true beleever for justification , nor gods accepting of the faithfull for righteous by their communion of that righteousnes applied , possessed , and enjoyed by faith . by faith and beleeving they doe not understand that guift and worke of gods spirit in the elect regenera●e , and sanctified , by which they doe beleeve and are perswaded that they are in christ , and christ is their head , and they as members have communion of all his benefits , even of his full satisfaction and perfect righteousnes for remission of all their sinnes , and for justification ; and by this perswasion and beleeving they have a sweet and lively sence , feeling and fruition of christs satisfaction and righteousnes , and rest on them as on the covering and propitiation of their sinnes , and their righteousnes by which they stand righteous before god and are justified ; but by faith and beleeving they understand no more but a confidence in god : that he will performe his promises made in christ , and an assent unto his word that it is true ; the tenour of which word and promises they conceive to be this , that christ in his pure perfect humane nature , by his righteousnes , sufferings and obedience unto death , hath merited such high favour with god , that god in honour to him , is pleased to accept and account the faith of them that beleeve him to bee a sufficient saviour , for righteousnes , and requires noe other righteousnes to constitute them , and make them after any sort formally righteous in their justification . when they acknowledge that christ his perfect satisfaction and righteousnes , is the meritorious cause of our justification , they doe not meane , that christ his satisfaction and righteousnes are communicated to us , and by faith so apprehended and possessed that wee thereby are indeed , and in gods account righteous before god and are justified , and they deserve that hee should so account us for them , but this is their mind and meaning that christ by his righteousnes , and obedience , hath merited that god for his sake should account faith to us for righteousnes ; without either our owne workes of the law , or his righteousnes imputed to us , and made ours by communion , and when they say , faith is imputed for righteousnes as an instrument : they meane not as the spirituall hand or instrument , applying christ his righteousnes , to bee after a sort the formall righteousnes of the beleever , but that faith as it is the instrument by which the beleever doth beleeve that christ hath purchased this favour , that faith should be the onely thing accounted to him for righteousnes . the orthodoxe exposition i will prove and confirme from the wordes of the apostle himselfe ; and other strong arguments in the first place ; and afterwards will confute and overthrow the hereticall exposition . the true exposition defended . for the right understanding of the apostles wordes , three things are first to be considered and explained : first , what is here meant by faith and beleeving . secondly , what righteousnes is here meant . thirdly what is meant by imputation . by faith in this place wee must not understand that naturall habit , and power which is common to all reasonable men , who upon their knowledge of things spoken or promised , doe give willing assent unto them that they are true , either for the authority of the speaker , whom they doe respect and judge to bee faithfull : or because they see good reason in the things spoken and promised , and if the things promised tend to their owne good , they rest upon them confidently , and perswade themselves that they are sure and certaine of them already , or shall receive and enjoy them in due time without faile . but here , by faith we are to understand that supernaturall guift and grace of beleeving wrought in the elect , regenerate by the spirit shed on them abundantly through iesus christ , tit. . . which is therefore called most holy faith , iude . this faith agreeeth with the other in these foure poynts . first , as that is an habit and power of beleeving , so is this , secondly , as that containes in it , notitiam in intellectu , a knowledge and notice of the things spoken & beleeved ; so doth this ; and as that containes in it assensum in voluntate an assent of the wil , so doth this also ; and as that faith when it goeth no further is called historical ; so this also : and as that faith when it reacheth to good things promised to our selves particularly , to apply them and rest on them , hath also fiduciam in corde & affectionibus , a trust and confidence of the heart and affections in it ; so hath this also , and is cald a firme perswasion , trust , confidence ; but they differ in divers things . first that is a naturall power or habit . this is spirituall , wrought in men by the spirit of god , dwelling in them and uniting them to christ in one mysticall body . secondly that hath in it no knowledge but naturall arising from light of naturall reason , nor any assent of the will or confidence in the heart and affections ; but such as are drawne , stirred up , and wrought , by meanes of naturall light and common causes ; this hath in it a spirituall knowledge arising from the spirit of god , enlightning the understanding ; the spirit also enclines and moves the will to give assent , and confirmes the heart with confidence and firme perswasion . thirdly that is common to all reasonable men ; this is proper to the elect , regenerate , and sanctified by the holy ghost shed on them through christ ; and is the first and the radicall grace and vertue of renovation . . that hath for the object or things beleeved , either naturall and worldly things onely , or things heavenly and supernaturall , seene and discern'd through the darke mist of naturall reason and assented to , & rested on with a carnall and unsanctified will and heart . this hath for the object , things supernaturall , and heavenly and spirituall , discerned by supernaturall light , assented to with an holy and sanctified will : confirmed to the heart by a spirituall sence : and sweet taste of the things promised , wrought by the holy spirit in the true beleever , apprehending and applying them . but to come neere to the text , the beleeving which the apostle speakes of in the . verse , and also in the . and . verses , is the faith and beleeving of abraham , who divers yeares before this beleeving which is said to be counted to him for righteousnes , was called out of his owne country : and by faith obeyed gods calling , and went and so●ourned in the land promised to him and his seed , as appeares heb. . . . he had overcome and slaughtered foure mighty kings , and their victorious arm●es by faith and confidence in gods promises ; an●melchizedeck king of salem the priest of the most high god , had blessed him ( as we read gen. . ) and after th●se things the lord appeared and spake to abraham and said , feare not , i am thy shield , and thy exceeding great reward , and withall hee renewed his promise of the blessed seed , by meanes of which seed all the families of the earth should be blessed in abraham , and should become his faithfull children ; besides his naturall seed and posterity which should come of the sonne and heire of his owne bowells , as appeares gen. . . . these were the promises which god made to abraham , and which abraham beleeved to be true , and resting upon the lord by firme faith and beliefe for the performance of them , the lord counted it to him for righteousnes , gen. . . or , as the apostle expresseth the same sentence in the same sence , though in wordes somewhat different , it was counted to him , verse . even faith was reckoned to him for righteousnes , verse . . now this faith and beleeving was first an holy spirituall beleefe : and the faith of a man long before called of god , and sa●ctified by his spirit , and made obedient to god and his word . secondly , it was a beleefe not only of the promise of christ the blessed seed in generall ; but more specially that christ according to the flesh , should come out of his owne bowels , and that by christ the sonne of god made man of his seed , the redemption both of him , and of all his faithfull seed , that is , all true beleevers should be wrought and performed , gods wrath appeased , the law fulfilled , justice satisfied , perfect righteousnes brought in for their justification , and by his and their union with christ by one spirit , and communion of all his benefits , they should have god for their portion and reward , for their sheild and defence and should not need to seeke the blessing , and reward of eternall life from their owne workes , or their owne righteousnes ; and fulfilling of the law in their owne persons , but meerely from the free grace of god , and of his free gui●t in christ , as a reward of christs righteousnesse freely given to them , and of them apprehended by faith and beleeving . thirdly , this faith of abraham was not a weake , but a strong faith , and beliefe without staggering , even a full perswasion , that god who quickneth the dead , and calleth those things which be not , as if they were , and was able to make good , and to performe what hee had promised ; yea it was a beleeving in hope against hope ; that god could out of a dead body and womb raise up a lively seed , and make them spiritually righteous : who are by nature and according to the law wicked sinners . all these things are manifest by the places before cited , gen : . and by the expresse wordes of the apostle in this chap : from the tenth verse to the end of the chapter . and thus you see what is meant by faith which is here said to be counted for righteous . secondly , the righteousnes here meant is not the righteousnes which is according to the strictnesse and tenour of the law ; that is , righteousnes of a mans own works , performed by every man in his owne person to the law of god ; for the apostle doth dispute altogether against that righteousnes and proves , that neither abraham was justified or counted of god righteous for it , as appeares in the . . . . verses , nor any other at any time , as appeares in the chapter before . and chap. . . and . . . . but here is meant an euangelicall righteousnes , which doth not consist in any worke or workes performed by a man himselfe in his owne person , nor in any grace or vertue inherent in himselfe , but is a righteousnesse which god of his owne free grace doth impute to the true beleever ; who by one spirit is united to christ , and hath communion with him , and is called the righteousnes of faith , and doth exclude legal justification , by righteousnesse of a mans owne workes , as appeares in the whole discourse of the apostle in this and the former chapter , and in diverse other places of this epistle , especially ver. . of this chap. and in chap. . . . thirdly , the phrase of imputing , or counting a thing to one signifies both in the old and new testament , an act of judgement and estimation , by which a thing is judged , esteemed , reckoned , and accounted to be as it is indeed , and then it is just , and according to truth : but when a thing is counted , or judged , thought , and esteemed , to be as it is not , then it is unjust , and not according to truth . now gods thoughts are alwaies just , and his judgement is according to truth . rom. . . and therefore a lust imputing and counting , is here ment , for god doth account , and iudge of all persons , and things , so as they are . of uniust counting , and imputing fal●ely , we have some examples in scripture , as kings . where bathsheba saith to david i and my sonne solomon shallbe counted offenders that is , vsurping adonijah and his wicked company , will so esteeme and judge us : of reputing , and coun●ing truely as the thing is , we have examples also , as nehemiah . . where it is said of the chosen levites , that they were counted faithfull , viz upon former experience of their faithfulnes , and therefore the office of distributing to the●brethren , was counted to them . and levit . . ●here it is said , blood shall be imputed to that man he hath shed blood , and shall be cut off from among his people . and psal . . a s●ed shall serve him , it shallbe counted to the lord for a generation . moreover , this word impute or count , signifies sometimes in the most proper sense a bare act of the iudgment and thought , as pro. . . where a ●oole is said to be counted wise when he holdeth his peace ; that is , men for the present judge or thinke him wise , at least in that point of silence . sometimes it signifies in a more full sense , not onely thinking , iudging , and counting persons to be good or bad , just , or unjust , innocent , or guilty ; but also dealing with them , and using them accordingly , as in the places before named , kings . . nehem. . . and levit. . . and psal . . also sam. ● . . where abimelech purging himselfe before saul , from the offence of conspiracy with david against him ( as doeg had falsely accused him ) saith , let not the king impute any thing unto his servant , that is , let him not thinke or judge his servant guilty , nor deale with him , or use him as a conspiratour . sometimes it signifies by a metonymie of the cause for the effect , condemning , and punishing an offence in a guilty person as he hath deserved , and to deale with him and use him as hee is justly thought and judged to have deserved , as sam. . . shimei said , let not my lord impute iniquity unto me : he doth not desire that david would not thinke , nor judge , nor count his iniquitie to be no iniquitie , that had beene against all reason , but that for the satisfaction which he had made , in coming first of all to the house of joseph to meet david , and to bring him againe to his kingdome , david would graciously pardon his offence , and not proceed against him , and punish him as justly , and worthy of punishment . sometimes it signifies by a metaphor , to count one thing as it were another , or no better then another , or of the same value , as prov. . . where a flattering salutation or blessing , given with a loud voyce , is said to be counted a curse , that is , esteemed no better then if it were a curse . somtimes to use one , as if he counted him of another condition , as gen. . . where it is said of laban , that he counted his daughters strangers ; that is , used them as if he had counted them strangers : and iob. . . where iob saith , that god counteth him for his enemy ; that is , afflicteth , and plagueth him , as if he counted him an enemy . somtimes the word signifies to skore up or to put upon a mans account or reckoning , either the offence or debt which he himselfe runs into ; as rom. . . where it is said , that sinne is not imputed when there is no law : that is , it is not ●o skored up , that men are punished for it , and it is not judged and punished in them , or the debt which he takes upon him for another : as philemon verse . if he hath wronged thee , or is indebted to thee put that on mine account , that is , impute and count it to me , and set it on my skore . now the severall significations of the severall wordes being thus laid open , i proceed more particularly to the true sense and meaning of every word in these speeches , and to shew how far the speeches may be extended . and first , by faith , and beleeving which is counted to every true beleever ( and was counted to abraham ) for righteousnesse . i understand here ( according to the judgment of the most orthodox divines ) the true holy spirituall faith , and beleefe , which is before shewed to have bin in abraham , and which is proper to the elect regenerate , and is said to be imputed to them for righteousnesse : b●righteousnesse is here meant evangelical righteousnesse , ( which is opposed to the legal righteousnesse of workes , which is inherent in every man , and is every mans fulfilling of the law in his owne person ) even the perfect satisfaction and righteousnesse of christ , ( god and man ) ●u●mediator and surety which he the son of god , in mans nature performed to the law , and which is apprehended by every true beleever , and applied to himselfe by a lively saith and whereof he hath communion and is truely made partaker by his spirituall union with christ , of whose mysticall body he is a member , being b●ptized and engraf●ed thereinto by one spirit . by the imputing and counting of that faith for righteousnesse to abraham , and to every one of his faithfull seed , is here ment gods setting of christs righteousnesse on the skore , and puting it on the account of every tru●beleever , and and his j●dging , esteeming , and counting them no more guilty of sinne , but perfectly righteous by that evangelical righteousnesse , which is called the righteousnesse of god . cor. . last ver. because it is the righteousnesse of god , performed in our nature , and the righteousnesse of faith , and not of workes , because the faithfull obtaine , and enjoy , and apply it by beleeving , and not by working the workes of the law , rom. . . . for the confirmation of this exposition , and justifying of this truth , we need seek no further arguments , but such as may be gathered from the apostles owne words , as in other of his epistles , so especially in this to the romans . the first argument is drawne from the wordes of the apostle in the second chap : of this epistle , verse . where this word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( as it signifies ) to be imputed or counted , is first used ; if ( saith hee ) the uncircumcision keep the righteousnes of the law , shall not his uncircumcision bee counted for circumcision ? by uncircumcision ( in the first clause ) we cannot understand the fore-skinne of the flesh not cut off , it is most absurd , and against common sense and reason to thinke or to suppose that it can or could performe and keepe the righteousnes of the law , but by vncircumcision is ment a gentile not circumcised , as beza , ( the most learned , judicious , and accurate critik and searcher out of the sense of everyword and sentence in the new testament ) doth expound the word , and so we have in this word a metonymie of the a●janct for the subject : the same word in the second clause ( as b●za also well observes ) doth not here signify the foreskin or uncircumcision in a proper sense ( for that cannot but most falsely be reputed and counted for circumcision ; because they are contradictories one to another ) but the state and condition of him who is uncircumcised , even the outward state of gentilisme ; and here is another metonymie of the same kind , even the signe put for the thing signified , yea it signifies not the state of a gentile or uncircumcised man barely considered in it selfe , but as comprehending in it the righteousnesse of the law , which the man uncircumcised hath kept and performed in that state , as the words necessarily imply ; for the apostle doth not here suppose onely uncircumcision , but the observation of the righteousnesse of the law in the state of uncircumcision ; and so here is a metalepsis or double trope , even a metonymie also of the thing conteyning for the thing contained , that is , of the subject for the adjunct , and also of the cause for the effect ; that is , the man in the state of uncircumcision keeping the righteousnes of the law , for the righteousnes of the law by him performed . by circumcision we cannot understand the outward cuting away of the foreskin of the flesh , neither ●aken literaly and carnally , as the corrupt jewes did take it , for a worke of righteousnes and obedience to the law for justification , so it was an obligation , by which the circumcised was bound under pain of cutting off for ever to performe the whole law , as appeares gal. . . and for a righteous gentile to be brought under this bondage was no benefit , but a miserable condition ; neither can circumcision be here taken sacramentally , as it was an outward signe and seale of the righteousnes of faith , and of mortification , and of all vertues of holinesse by which men are sanctified to god and become his peculiar people , for ismael , esau and all the prophane persons of israel circumcised , were partakers of the outward signe and sacrament of circumcision , and yet were destitute of t●e inward grace signified ; and in neither respect can uncircumcision , or the person uncircumcised , nor gentilism● , together with the keeping the righteousnes of the law be counted truely for circumcision , nor reckoned in the place of it ; but here by circumcision is meant the circumcision of the heare in the spirit , and not in the letter , for so the apostle doth expound himselfe verse . the ( word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} shall be counted ) signifies here in a full sense judging , counting approving , accepting and using accordingly . now all laid together the meaning of the apostle in these wordes is this , that if a man uncircumcised doe keepe all the commandements , and performe the righteousnes of the law , his state of gentilisme comprehending in it the righteousnes of the law , shall be counted and accepted for the state of an holy and righteous man circumcised in heart , and hee though uncircumcised in flesh , and a gentile in outward estate , shall be counted of god a true israelite without guile , truely circumcised with inward spirituall circumcision of the heart in the spirit , whose praise is not of men , but of god . this sence and meaning of the wordes , and of this phrase is so cleere and manifest , and so perfectly agreeable to all true reason , that none can deny it , unlesse hee will set himselfe to rebell against the light ; and this phrase being the same which this apostle doth use againe , where hee mentions counting and imputing of faith and beleeving for righteousnes to abraham , and to every true beleever , doth give light for the discovering of the true sense and meaning of the wordes , the phrase being the very same . wherefore if we will follow the apostle himselfe , and tread after him in the same steps , being the surest guide , and best expounder of his owne wordes and meaning , we must by abrahams beleeving by a metalepsis or double trope , with our learned divines , understand abraham standing in the state of a true beleever , united by one spirit unto god in christ , and having communion of his satisfaction and righteousnes , which were of force from the beginning to save and iustifie , and to make god the reward of the beleever . and by faith imputed or counted for righteousnes , wee must not understand faith in a proper sense , but by a double trope , for the state and condition of a true faithfull man , and for that which faith comprehends and includes in it , even the perfect righteousnes and full satisfaction of christ god and man : by righteousnes we must understand the state of a man justified , or evangelicall righteousnes communicated to the justified man , and made his for iustification . and by counting and imputing we must understand the accepting , approving , esteeming & iudging of abraham , and every true beleever , so soone as he appeares faithfull to be in the state of a man iustified , and gods setting on his skore , and counting , & imputing to him being faithfull , the righteousnes of christ apprehended by faith , which is indeed and in truth made his by spirituall union and communion with christ . heare then the true paraphrase upon the apostles words , shewing the true sense and meaning of them , abraham upon a true inward spirituall sense of his union and communion with christ , did beleeve and was surely perswaded that god was his reward , and this his beleefe and faith comprehending christ for righteousnes , and containing in it after a sort the righteousnes of christ , god counted it to him for righteousnes ; that is , set it on his skore , and reckoned it to him for iustification , and judged , esteemed and accepted him for a man truly righteous , as indeed he was , and so whosoever doth not rest on his owne workes for iustification , nor seeketh thereby to be iustified , but by faith seeketh that righteousnes which makes him righteous by the communion of it , when in himselfe by nature he is ungodly , his faith comprehending in it christ and his righteousnes , is counted for righteousnes , because it settles him in the state of a righteous man ; and gods setting on his skore christs satisfaction and righteousnes , doth accept him for a man iustified . a second argument confirming the exposition is drawn from the apostles owne wordes in the fourth verse : now to him that worketh , the reward is not reckoned of grace , but of d●bt , whereby it is manifest that the thing counted for righteousnes brings with it a reward , also to the beleever which is counted , not of debt , bu●…grace , now there is nothing which can bring the reward of eternal life , and glory to a beleever , when it is counted to him and set on his skore , but the perfect righteousnes and satisfaction of jesus christ ; that , all grant to bee meritoribus of eternall life to all that are partakers of it , and because the communion and imputation of it is of gods free grace , and the faith by which we receive , apply and enjoy it , is gods free gift , therefore the reward , to wit , eternall life is of free grace , and not of debt , as the apostle here saith . whereupon the the conclusion followes , that the thing counted for righteousnes is the righteousnes of christ apprehended by faith . thirdly , in the . and . verses the apostle teacheth expressely ; that the thing imputed by god is righteousnes ; and such a righteousnes , as being imputed , brings forgivenesse of iniquity , and covers sinnes , and so makes the beleever blessed . now there is no righteousnes to be found among all mankinde , besides christs perfect righteousnes and full satisfaction ; and that is a perfect propitiation for all sinnes , and an expiation of all iniquity to them who by faith have put on christ , therefore it is the true righteousnes which is imputed to every beleever for justification . fourthly , that which is here said to be imputed to abraham , and to every beleever , is for righteousnesse to iustification , for the discourse of the apostle here , and in the . and . chap. is altogether of iustifying , as appeares chap. . verse . . . . and also chap. . . . , . in all which places he mentions iustification and iustifying ; and here in this . chap. he brings abrahams example , and davids testimony to shew how we are iustified : now there is nothing which doth serve to us for righteousnes to iustification , but that which is found in christ our mediatour , even his righteousnes and perfect fulfilling of the law ; so this apostle doth plainely affirme and teach chap. . . and chap. . . . and chap. . . . therefore this righteousnes is upon the true beleeving of abraham , and the faithfull counted and imputed to them , and set on their skore for their iustification . fiftly , that exposition of a phrase or speech of scripture , which is warranted by other places of scripture , wherefore that phrase is used , is to be judged the best exposition ; this none can with any reason deny , for the spirit of god speaking in scripture , is the best expounder of his owne meaning . now this exposition , that imputing or counting a thing for righteousnes , is no more but declaring a man thereby to be righteous , and giving him the testimony of righteousnes , is warranted by other scriptures wheresoever it is used . therefore this is to be judged the best exposition . for confirmation of the assumption or minor we have that place of holy scripture , psal. . in which onely and no where else , a thing is said to be imputed or counted to a man for righteousnes ; viz. phineas , his godly zealous act of executing judgement on zimri , and c●sbi , then phineas stood up ( saith the psalmist ) and executed judgement , and that was counted to him for righteousnes , now no man can understand , that this act was accepted of god for righteousnes to justification , for then a man may be iustified before god by one godly and zealous act of his owne , which is that which the apostle utterly condemneth for a grosse errour , and bends his whole discourse against it . the true sense and meaning of this phrase is no more but this , that phineas performing such a godly zealous act , as is proper to a faithfull righteous man onely , who hath the spirit of regeneration , and of sanctification dwelling in him : uniting him to christ , and making him by faith a true partaker of 〈◊〉 righteousnes , god upon this act gave him the testimony of righteousnes : and declared him to be a righteous man truely iustified . therefore the phrase of imputing or counting faith for righteousnes , signifieth no more but this , that the true beleever is counted a righteous man , and god giveth him the testimony of righteousnes , because he is indeed partaker of christs righteousnes , which he hath apprehended and applied by faith . if i should insist upon humane testimonies , and the opinions of orthodox expositours of these wordes both ancient and moderne for the further proofe of this exposition , a large volume would be little enough : for the particular rehearsing of them all , let these five arguments suffice . the confutation of the false exposition made by socinus , and other hereticks his disciples ; as wotton , goodwin , and their companions . first , whereas they hould , that faith in a proper literall sense ; that is , considered in it selfe without relation to any other thing , is counted to every true beleever for righteousnes to iustification , and god requireth in and of us , no other thing for righteousnes , neither our workes performed in our owne persons , according to the law , nor christs perfect righteousnes , and fulfilling of the law , made ours by spirituall union and communion , and accepted of god for us . this i prove to be false , hereticall , and blasphemous by these arguments following . first , faith taken in a proper sense , is a part of our conformity and obedience to the law of god , which above all things requires that we give honour to god , by beleeving him and his word , and trusting in him as our onely rock , and the god of our strength and salvation . they therefore teaching , that faith in a proper sense is counted for righteousnes , do teach , that we are iustified by a worke of obedience to the law performed in our owne persons , and that this is the onely righteousnes which god requires any way of us for iustification : therefore their opinion is hereticall , more impious then the pelagian and popish heresies concerning iustification . secondly , that which was imputed to abraham , and is imputed to true beleevers , is righteousnes , so the apostle affirmes , ver. . and . but faith is not righteousnes taken in a proper sense , for righteousnes is a perfect conformity to the law , as sinne is transgression of the law : therefore faith in a proper sense is not righteousnes . thirdly , that which chargeth god with error , and falsehood , in his iudgement , is blasphemy . this opinion , that god counts faith for righteousnes , that is , thinketh , iudgeth , and esteemeth it to be righteousnesse taken in a proper sense , chargeth god with error and falsehood , in his iudgement ; therefore it is blasphemy . if they pleade , that god by his soveraigne power , may graciously count that which is not righteousnes , for righteousnes to the beleever : i answere , that god by his soveraigne power , cannotly , nor erre , nor iudge unrighteously , it is contrary to his infinite and eternal iustice , which wil not be satisfied without fulfilling of his iust law , and perfect righteousnes communicated , and imputed to us : therefore this is a base shift , and wicked pretence , devised to cover their blasphemy , by that which is indeed , a greater blasphemy . fourthly that opinion which denyeth , and taketh away the meanes by which god is revealed to be infinitely iust , mercifull , and wise , and makes the satisfaction of christ and his perfect fulfilling of the law , a vaine and needlesse thing , is most hereticall , impious , and blasphemous . this opinion , that god by his soveraigne power can , and doth count , and accept , faith in a proper sense for righteousnes to iustification , without imputation of christs satisfaction , and righteousnes , takes away these meanes , and makes christs fulfilling of the law , a vaine and needlesse thing . therefore it is an impious hereticall and blasphemous opinion . the meanes by which god is revealed to be infinitly iust , mercifull and wise , are these : namely , first , that he cannot be reconciled to man without a full satisfaction made to his iust law by mens surety in their stead , and by him communicated to them , and made theirs as truely as if they had fulfilled the law in their owne persons , and though the satisfaction be of infinite valve , yet it cannot profit them till they have communion of it , and be partakers thereof : this is that which reveales god to be infinitely iust , and that his infinit iustice being so strict , he would mercifully give his owne son to become man , and in mans nature , to make such a full satisfaction for men , and by his spirit shed on them through christ , would unite them unto him in one body , and communicate him with all his benefits and satisfaction to them , to be truely theirs , and to satisfy for them . this reveales his infinite mercy , bounty , and wisedome : and by these meanes , this opinion takes away gods iustice , while it sets god forth to be such a one as can dispence with is iustice and accept faith in a proper sense for righteousnes which is no righteousnes , but onely a weake imperfect worke and duty which we owe to the law . if gods justice may thus be dispensed with , and a weake thing in fraile man , counted for righteousnes without any communion , or imputation . what need was there of christs death , suffering , and obedience ; god might as well have accepted the sacrifice of a lamb , or the suffering and obedience of a meere man , and so the full satisfaction of christ is vaine and needlesse , and it was want of wisedome in god to spend so much of christs blood and obedience in vaine , when by his soveraigne power he might have accounted a lesse thing for mans ransome . therefore this opinion is blasphemy . fiftly , that opinion which overthrowes the sacraments of the gospel , and the true use of them , is hereticall and blasphemous . this opinion , that christs righteousnes and obedience is is not imputed to the saithfull doth so ; for the sacraments are seales of our communion with christ , and the lords supper rightly received , is called , the communion of the faithfull ; and when these her●ticks deny , that the righteousnes of christ is imputed to the faithfull , they deny their communion with christ , for if christs righteousnes be communicated spiritually to them , and made theirs , god , whose judgement is according to truth , cannot but impute it to them , and set it on their skore , and count it theirs in his true iudgment : if he should not count it theirs , and impute it to them , he should judge unjustly , and erre in his iudgement ; and the sacraments which are seales of communion , are lying seales , if it be not communicated nor imputed . therefore this opinion is hereticall and blasphemous . sixthly , that opinion which is invented and maintained by hereticks , who deny the eternall god head of christ , and tends to perswade men , that there is no use of christs being god and man in one person , is hereticall , and blasphemous . this opinion is such , and tends to take away the use of christs being god and man in one person , and to perswade men there is no use of his being god and man in one person ; for all orthodox divines teach that it was necessary christ should be go●●hat the obedience and suffering of his man-hood for a time might be the suffering and obedience of god , and so of infinite value , and of more worth then if the elect had suffered for ever in hell in their owne persons , and that the fulfilling and obedience of him alone in our nature , should be of more value then if they all in their owne persons had suffered and obeyed as much as he did : they also teach , that the satisfaction and righteousnes which gods infinite justice required , and without which it could not be satisfied , for the removing of so great an evil as gods infinite wrath and eternall death and torment in hell , and for the bringing in of eternall righteousnes & making men worthy of , and fit for eternall glory in heaven , which is an infinite good , could not be performed by any but by him , who is god and man in one person : and therefore the infinite evil which was to be taken away by christs suffering , and the infinite good which was to be procured by his obedience , and righteousnes , required necessarily , that he should be god and man in one person . but the authors of this opinion , by denying that gods infinite justice stands in strength and requires such a satisfaction , or that every beleever hath need to have such a satisfaction communicated to him , made his by spirituall union , and imputed to him , they take away the use of christs god-head , and the causes and reasons for which it was necessary that he should be god , and in conclusion they deny christ to be god . therefore this opinion is hereticall and blasphemous . lastly , that opinion which is builded on hereticall and blasphemous grounds , and is maintained and upheld by blasphemous arguments , which shake and raze the maine foundations of true religion , is most hereticall and blasphemous : and such is this opinion ; for it is builded upon this blasphemous ground , that god by his soveraigne power , may do and will , things contrary to his iustice ; that is , count , and accept that for righteousnes , which is not righteousnes , 〈◊〉 worthy to be counted one act of perfect righteousnes , ( for such is the faith of fraile man taken in a proper sense ) the arguments by which it is commonly maintained , are also blasphemous , viz. that christs righteousnes is not the righteousnes of true beleevers , neither is it imputed to them by god for iustification : for they say , god cannot iustify one by the righteousnes of another , and therefore he cannot iustify us , by christs righteousnes . what is this but an expresse denyall of the union of the faithfull with christ , for if he be one with us , and we with him , then are our sinnes made his , and in him satisfied , and his righteousnes made ours , and we are iustified by it , as it is ours , and not the righteousnes of another , nor so different from us ; but that he and all his benefits are ours , and we have interest in them , and enjoy and possesse them so far as every one hath need of them . secondly , they argue , that the righteousnes of one cannot be sufficient for all the elect , nor counted to them all for righteousnes , which is in effect a denying of christ to be god and man in one person , for if they acknowledg him to be god , they must needes acknowledge , that his righteousnes and fulfilling of the law , is of more worth and value , then if all men in the world had fulfilled the law in their owne persons , without fayling in one point . thirdly , they argue , that if christs satisfaction and righteousnes be so made ours , and imputed to us , that the law may be said to be fulfilled in us , and we may be said to have satisfied gods iustice in and by him our surety , and our head , then is there no place left for pardon and free forgivenes of our sinnes , for pardon and satisfaction are contrary . by which they overthrow the doctrine of redemption , and of christs satisfaction , and deny christ to be our redeemer , and to have payd our ransome , and made a full satisfaction for our sinnes to gods iustice contrary to the scriptures , and the iudgement and beleefe of all christian divines , which teach , that christ hath payd our ransome , and made a full satisfaction , and so is properly our redeemer : and though gods iusti●● exacted of christ our surety , a full ransome , and did not abate to him the least farthing of our debt , yet we are freely pardoned , and have free forgivenesse , and are freely iustified by gods grace , because he did freely give christ to satisfie and fulfill the law for us , and doth freely by his grace , and by the free guift of his spirit , unite us to christ , and make us partakers of his satisfaction , and imputing his satisfaction freely to us , doth for it freely forgive our sinnes , and iustify us . fourthly , while they argue , that faith in a proper sense is all the righteousnes which the faithfull have for iustification , and yee dare not affirme that faith is any formall righteousnes , but deny that any formall righteousnes is required in iustification : hereby they deny the saints iustified to be righteous , contrary to the scriptures , which call the faithfull iustified , the righteous , and the generation of the righteous , which they cannot be without a formall righteousnes , which doth constitute and give being to a righteous and iustified man , as he is righteous and iustified ; wherefore this is a monstrous opinion , contrary to common sense and reason . fiftly , while they deny , that the faithfull are constituted and made formally righteous , by the obedience of christ communicated , and imputed to them , ( which the apostle in expresse wordes doth affirme . rom. . . and . . and . . ) they fall into the heresie of the pelagians , and are forced to deny that adams sinne , and disobedience is communicated , and imputed to his posterity , and they are formally sinners , by it ; and rather then they will yeeld , that infants which die before they commit actuall transgression in their owne persons are by death punished , because they are guilty of adams sinne , they do blasphemously affirme , that god being offended , and moved to wrath by the sinnes of parents , will out of the magnificence of his iustice , destroy innocent babes , with their sinfull parents , which is contrary to gods word and law , teaching us ▪ ●hat children shall not die for the sins of their parents , unlesse they be partakers with them , either by communion and imputation , or by imitation and approbation ; whereas they bring for instance , that the children of korah were destroyed with their father , though they were innocent , and not partakers in the sinne ; here in they contradict the scriptures , which expressely affirme , that the children of korah dyed not . num. . . for they upon moses his threatning , escaped , and fled from their fathers tents in all likely-hood , and onely they perished , who would not be admonished by moses ; to separate from the congregation of korah , but adher'd to him , & wer partakers of his conspiracy & sin . sixt●y , when they for a colour of their heresie confesse in word , that christs righteousnes is the meritorio us cause of justification , and yet deny communion , and imputation of it to beleevers ; they fall into this horrible opinion ; that christ by his righteousnes , doth iustifie infidels , and impenitent reprobates , as much as he iustifies the elect , and faithfull : for if it be not communicated and imputed to beleevers in their iustification , then have they no more interest in the merit thereof , then infidels , and damned reprobates ; it is onely meritorious , and of worth , value , and sufficiency , to iustifie them , s it is to all mankind , even to infidels ; and what benefit , a and merit of it they have , it is by their owne free will making use of it , which infidels might do if they would , for they have the merit of it as much as beleevers , can have without communion , and imputation of it . lastly , while they argue , that as in the first covenant , god required workes of the law performed by every man in his owne person , and this was the condition which man was to performe for obtaining of life , and that covenant of life was not free , but conditionall ; so in the new covenant , god requires in us faith and beleeving , as the condition which we on our part must performe for iustification , and so for the obtaining of eternall life and salvation . hereby they affirme the new covenant , to be a covenant conditionall , and not of free grace , for whatsoever is covenanted and promised upon a condition to be performed , is not absolutely free , nor freely given , and so the faithfull are not iustified freely b●grace : whereas they plead , that iustification a●d life is promised upon condition of beleeving ▪ ( if you beleeve you shall be saved ) this is ●grosse and absurd mistake , for every conditionall proposition doth not propound the condition of a covenant , for that whensoever it is performed , makes the thing covenanted a due debt , which the promiser is bound to give : but oftentimes a conditionall proposition propounds the meanes by which a free gift is received , or the qualification by which one is made capable and fit to receive and enjoy a free gift : as for example , it is often said in scripture , if y●● will heare , and hearken , ye shall be saved , and not destroyed , your soule shall live , and yee shall ea●e the good of the land . isay . . ier. . . and . and many other places . if we love one another , god dwelleth in us . ioh. . . if we walke in the light , we have fellowship one with another . ioh. ▪ . if we confesse our sinnes , he is faithfull and iust to forgive . joh. . . if a man be iust , and do that which is right , he shall surely live . ezek. . . . in all which and the like places , there is no condition of the covenant propounded , but onely the meanes and the way to receive blessing or the quality and condition by which men are made c●pable and fit to enjoy blessing ; and sometimes the effects , and fruites of them that are in a blessed estate ; and even so , when the scripture saith , if yee beleeve , yee shall be iustified : there is noe condition of the covenant propounded to be performed on our part for iustification , and salvation , but onely the qualification by which god doth qualify us , and fit us by his free grace to be iustified , and saved , and the meanes by which he enables us to receive righteousnes , and to lay hold on sa●vation , which is freely given to us in christ . vpon these particulars severally observed out of their owne wordes and writings , i strongly conclude , that this opinion being builded upon such blasphemous and hereticall groundes , and maintained and upheld by such blasphemous arguments , must needes be most impious , hereticall and blasphemous . having already proved the s●cinian , and arminian opinion to be most false , impious , and hereticall , and blasphemous , i proceed to discover the weakenesse and absurdity of mr. goodwins arguments , contained in the chapter of his socinian discourse , which he hath attempted to publish in print ( as i heare . ) which arguments Ī am challenged to answere , and for that purpose he hath with his owne hand delivered them to me : against which i cheerefullie set my selfe , and stand for the truth . the maine ground upon which he pretends to build his arguments , by which he labours to prove imputation of faith in a proper sense , for righteousnesse , and that faith , and not the righteousnesse of christ apprehended by faith is counted for righteousnes , is the th. chap : of the epistle to the rom●ns . before his disputation he professeth , that none by any wit of learning under heaven , is so fit to determinate what is imputed for righteousnes in iustification as the holy ghost speaking in the scriptures ; and yet he saith , he leaves his meaning and intent in many things , unto men to debate , which they onely can declare to whom he reveales the secret of his counsell , and amongst these being the true begotten of the truth : he seemes to intimate , that he will prove himselfe to be one , by some stamp or superscription of a rationall authority , set upon him , though in common esteeme he be but like other men , and the neerer he is to the truth , the farther off he is from the approbation of many men , greatest pretende●s to the truth . though the rude multitude of his disciples give just offence , by proclayming him to be the great light of gods church , revealed in these last times ; yet in him it is more scandalous and offensive , that he , professing the holy ghost to be the best iudge for determining controversies , doth immediately contradict himselfe , by saying , that he leaves his meaning and intent , to be debated by men , and makes such men as himselfe ( stamped with a rationall authority ) the judges of his meaning : what is this , but the heresie of the arminians , who hold , that their right reason , ( as they call it ) and not the word of the spirit speaking plainely in the scriptures , is the best iudge of the spirits meaning and intent in obscure places , and how scandalous , and offensive it is for him to profes such excellent things of himselfe before hand , and in the whole progresse of his disputation to run so far from the spirits meaning , and from all right reason ( as i shall prove by my si●●ing , and answering of his arguments ) i leave to the godly wise , and learned to judge . his first argument . first , he undertakes to prove , that faith in a proper sen●e is affirmed by the apostle to be imputed for righteousnes , and not the righteousnesse of christ apprehended by faith , because the phrase of imputing faith for righteousnes is once , yea twice , yea a third , and fourth time used by the apostle in this chapter , and therefore hath all the authority and countenance from the scriptures that wordes can give , whereas the imputation of christs righteousnesse hath not the least reliefe either from any sound of wordes , or sight of letter in the scriptures . answere . in this argument he shewes himselfe as bould in affirming manifest untruthes , as ignorant both of rhetorick and logick : in rhetorick it is counted an excellent ornament of speech to continue a trope , and it is called an allegory , ( he is ignorant who knoweth not this . ) in logick he is counted a boldlying sophister , who holds that a syllogisme , a true and perfect argument hath a proposition which is manifestly false . and what more grosse ignorance in logick . then to hold two propositions to be negative and affirmative , in respect of one another , which consist of divers subjects , and that an affirmative and the negative may both be true . all these absurdities appeare in this argument . first , in that he affirmes the apostles speech to be proper , and the sense to be properly literall , because he useth the same phrase foure times : hereby he shewes his ignorance of the continuance of a trope , which rhetoricians esteeme an elegant allegory , and which is most frequent in the scripture : for jer. . the lord is said to repent severall times , viz. ver. . . . and yet the speech is not proper , but improper ; for god cannot properly be said to repent , as appeares num. . . sam. . . here then he sheweth as much ignorance of rhetoricke , and of the frequent use of rhetorical allegories in the scripture , as he seemes to shew of logick , when he makes his affirmative , viz. faith is imputed for righteousnes ; and affirmes it to be true , and withall saith , that the negative int●parably accompanying it , is a truth also , when logick teacheth , that if the affirmative be true , the negative must needs be false . if by the negative he meanes this , viz. christs righteousnesse is not imputed : he erres two waies from logick , first by calling the negative inseparably accompanying his affirmative . secondly , by speaking ambiguously , a speech which may beare divers senses ; which logick abhorres in a disputation . secondly , he shewes himselfe a bould lving sophister , when he affirmes most falsely , and impudently 〈◊〉 that no truth in religion , nor article of our faith , can boast of the letter , that is , of the proper literall sense of the scripture more full , expresse , and pregnant , then that speech or proposition which is foure times used in one chapter , for the contrary is most manifestly true , as divers places shew , where one and the same thing is often affirmed , and yet the speech is not proper , but tropicall : i will instance in one place which is most convincing , viz. gal. . where the word ( faith ) is ten times used in an improper sense , for the word of faith the gospel , as it is opposed to the law carnallie understood , viz. verse , , , , , , , , , . now the maine proposition-of his syllogisme being so manifestly false , his conclusion inferred from thence is certainely most false , viz. that this speech of saint paul ( faith is counted for righteousnes ) is properly literall ▪ and not improper and tropicall the second argument co●ched under the other runs thus , if it be reduced into a●syllogisme . that which hath not the least releife either from any sound of wordes , or sight of letter in the scripture , is an untruth and a meere fiction , the imputation of christs righteousnes hath not the least releife , either from sound of wordes , or sight of letter in scripture . therefore it is a meere fiction . the assumption or minor of this syllogisme is most false , and therefore the conclusion hath no truth in it : i prove it most false by the apostles owne wordes ; for in the fourth v. he saith , that to the blessed man god imputeth righteousnes without workes ; and verse . where he saith , that as to abraham faith was imputed before hee was circumcised , so god shewed , that righteousnes should be imputed to the beleeving gentiles though uncircumcised , in which two places he shewes , that by beleeving and faith imputed to abraham and all true beleevers , the spirit of god meanes righteousnes couched under the name of faith , and beleeving . now this righteousnes cannot be faith it selfe in a proper sense ; for every act of faith is a worke ; but this is a righteousnes imputed to us without workes done by us in our owne persons , besides faith and all the beleeving of the most faithfull cannot make up one duty , or worke of true and perfect righteousnes , such as god can impute to justification , for faith in the best beleevers ( even in abraham himselfe ) was stayned with many doubtings & fears . but here must needes b●e meant that righteousnes in which the most just god can see no imperfection , and therefore counts it for righteousnes to justifie all that are partakers of it ; and this can bee no other but the righteousnes which christ god and man performed in mans nature , therefore the contrary of the assumption is most true . the third , which hee calls his second mayne argument or proofe , is drawne from the scope of the place , and the intent of the apostle in his discourse of justification , here in these chapters of this epistle , it runs thus being reduced into a syllogisme . the scope of the place , and intent of the apostle , is to hedge up as it were with thornes the false way of justification which lay through workes , and to put men by from attempting any going that way ; and also to discover the true way of justification to them ; that is ; to make knowne unto them ; what they must doe , and what god requires of them for justification , and what hee will accept at their hands , instead of the workes of the law , and that is it which he heare saith , is imputed for righteousnes . now faith and beleeving in the proper and formall signification is that which they must doe and performe to their justification , which also god requires of them inst ad of the workes of the law , and will accept at their hands instead of them . therefore it is faith in a proper sense which is here by the apostle to be counted for righteousnes . in the first proposition we have an heape of lyes mixt with contradiction , first , in that he saith , the scope of the apostle is to put men from the false way of justification which lies through workes , and to discover the true way by making them know what they must doe , and performe for justification ; here like a mad or drunken man he contradicts himselfe , for , who doth not see that the way of doing and performing is the way which lyes through workes , and that if a thing done and performed by us be counted for righteousnes to iustification , then the way of iustification lies through workes done by us : which if they be iust and lawfull , are workes of the law : secondly , if he by the way which lay through workes understands mens owne workes done in obedience to the law of god ; it is true which he saith ; that this is the false way ; and that which hee calls the true way ; viz. by mens doing and performing , is either the same with it , or else worse ; and so hee speakes a most grosse untruth , in calling it the true way , being the same with the false way ; but if by the way which lies through workes he meanes seeking after christs righteousnes which consists in workes of obedience to the law , then his wordes are most false , wicked and blasphemous , in that he calls this the false way to iustification . thirdly , in that he saith , god requires something to be don , and performed by men for their iustification , and that is it , which the apostle saith is imputed for righteousnes , this is most false , neither doth the apostle intend any such thing in this place , for this is to set up iustification by doing , and workes of our owne , which he altogether opposeth , and his whole scope is bent against it , and to shew ; that all which we are to looke to , is to receive that which is freely given of god , and imputed to us for righteousnes , that is , the righteousnes of him who is god ; as he often calls it in this epistle , as rom. . . and . . here then behold how hee makes the new covenant a conditionall covenant , and not of free grace ; promising iustification and salvation upon condition of mens doing . in briefe , besides the contradictions and other absurdities and untruthes in this argument before noted , i finde these grosse errours in the carriage of it , one is ; in that he saith , god doth not require of us the righteousnes of christ for iustification , this hee required of christ himselfe . to which i answer ; that god requires nothing of us for our iustification , for wee are iustified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in iesus christ rom. . , that is , by the free gift and communion of the satisfaction which christ made for our redemption ; but yet the thing which god requires in our behalfe , is that satisfaction and righteousnes of christ , and the qualification of us for the receiving , applying and enjoying of that righteousnes for iustification , is faith , which is not of our selves , but is the gift of god , ephes. . . for god worketh in us the will and power to beleeve , and actuall beleeving also , phil. . . and all this by his spirit dwelling in us uniting us to christ , and so bringing us to communion of all his benefits , even of his righteousnes to iustification : and this is the true intent and scope of the apostle , to draw us from seeking iustification by any worke , which we can doe , or which god requires of us for that end , and to make us looke up to the redemption which is in christ ; and in his satisfaction apprehended by faith to rest for iustification : as for this phrase , of gods requiring christs righteousnes of us , it is harsh and unsavoury , yea absurd ; as if one should say god requires , that the particular and individuall act done by another , bee not done by him , but by us ; which implies a contradiction ; but this , that god requires the righteousnes of christ , not for our justification , but of christ himselfe ; this implies ; that christ had need of iustification , and was bound to fulfill the righteousnes of the law for himselfe ; and savours of socinian and samosatenian heresie which denies christs god-head ; for if christs humane nature being from the first conception most pure , upright and holy , was personally united to his god-head , and so the sonne of god and heire of all things ; who can doubt but that in himselfe he was worthy of all glory , at gods right hand from his birth , as his taking of our nature upon him was altogether for us , so his infirmities , sufferings , death , and continuance on earth for the performance of all righteousnesse and obedience to the whole law , was for us , and for all the elect , who of old beleeved in him to come for them , and who now doe in beleeve him exalted to glory according to his humanity , to thinke or say that he had need to justifie himselfe , and to merit by his righteousnes the state of glory , is in effect to deny that he was god infinitely worthy of all glory , as he was the onely begotten sonne of god and heire of all things . another grosse error is , that he calls faith and beleeving a thing don and performed by us , when as the apostle affirmes , and all christians confesse , that our beleeving and faith is not of our selves , but the gift of god , and the worke and motion of his spirit in us . a third untruth and grosse absurdity or rather blasphemy is in the last wordes , where he affirmes , that if the apostle had said unto them , that they must bee justified by christ , or by christs righteousnes , this had beene rather to cast a snare upon them , then to have opened a dore of life and saluation unto them . farre bee it from mee and all true christians not to detest , and curse with the curse of anathema maranatha , that mouth which proclaimes and obstinately maintaines , that teaching iustification by christ , and by his righteousnes is casting of a snare on men , and not opening adore of life and salvation to them . in the third place he layes down his arguments against the true orthodox interpretation of saint pauls speeches , concerning imputation of faith for righteousnes , which interpretation he goeth about to overthrow , by severall circumstances or passages in the context . the first argument reduced into forme runs thus , that the apostle who desired to speake to mens understanding , should in the weighty point of iustification , time after time , and often without ever explaining himselfe , or changing his speech , use so strange harsh and uncouth an expression , and figure of speech as is not to be found in all his writings , is a thing most unlikely and not to be beleeved : but this interpretation viz. fathers upon him such an harsh expression , and figure of speech , without ever explaining of himselfe , as is not to be found in all his writings , saying , that faith or beleeving is imputed for righteousnes time after time , without over changing his speech , and meaning , that indeed christs righteousnes is imputed , which was to speake rather that he might conceale his mind then reveale it . therefore this interpretation layeth on the apostle a thing incredible , and is false and not to be beleeved . to the assumption i answer , that it is an heape of manifest and impudent lies . first , it is no harsh , strange , and uncouth expression to use a figure of speech , and by saith and beleeving to meane the state , or a man in the state of a true faithfull beleever , and by righteousnes , the state , or a man in the state of righteousnes , or of a righteous man , and to say that faith and beleeving is counted for righteousnes , meaning that the state of a beleever having by faith spirituall communion with christ , is a state of righteousnes , and the man which is in that estate , is reputed of god in the state of righteousnes , for this same expression and figure of speech , the apostle useth severall times in the foure last verses of the . chapter of this epistle ; where by circumcision he understands sanctification of the heart in the spirit , verse . and also . and also a circumcised jew , v. . and by uncircumcision he meanes an uncircumcised gentile , and also the state of gentilisme , as beza observes , and common sense teacheth ; and here is discovered a second impudent lye , in that he saith , this figure of speech is not to bee found in all the apostles writings . a third bold lye and manifest falshood is , that the apostle time after time useth the phrase of faith , or beleeving imputed without ever explaining himselfe , or changing his speech , for that which hee calls faith and beleeving , and saith it is imputed in the third and . ver. he explaining himselfe , and changing his speech both in the . and . verses , calls it righteousnes , and saith , god imputeth righteousnes , and righteousnes is imputed . thus you see how hee hath bent his tongue and pen like a bow for lyes , and shootes them forth thick and threefold like poysoned arrowes , as if his quiver were the armory of the father of lyers , the prince of darknesse . the second argument is briefly this , that which is imputed for righteousnes , is called his faith , first before it is imputed , verse . to him that beleeveth his faith is counted for righteousnes ; but the righteousnes of christ cannot truely and properly be called his : who is a true beleever before it is imputed . therefore the righteousnes of christ is not here to be understood under the name of faith . the righteousnes of christ by spirituall union and common with christ : is as truely the true beleevers as his faith is his , for christ is made unto him righteousnes , cor. . . and he is made the righteousnes of god in christ , cor. . . and that in order of nature , before it is counted his righteousnes . for god , whose judgement is according to truth , doth not count that to the beleever which he hath not before , or at the same time doth communicate to him . secondly i answer , that if faith which is here called ( his faith ) be faith in a proper sense , and bee imputed for righteousnes , then is man justified by his owne inherent righteousnes , and by a worke done and performed in his owne person , which is worse then popery . the object of that faith which is here said to be imputed , is god himselfe , or the promise of god , and not the righteousnes of christ : for to understand , that the righteousnes of christ is meant by god , is to set up a trope , which is not a figure of speech , but a monster of speech . therefore christs righteousnes is not here said to be imputed . the object of abrahams faith was the promise of christ , and that in christ god was his sheild and his great reward , gen. . . now no man can in beleeving by true faith , separate christs satisfaction and righteousnes from christ himselfe : if he enjoy christ by faith , he enjoyes christs benefits also ; and to beleeve god to be our reward , is to beleeve that god is become our righteousnes , and so our reward , for the blessed reward is the reward of righteousnes ; and therefore this argument rightly framed out of the . v. from abrahams beleeving god , is strong against him ; here againe i note his ignorance in rhetoricall tropes , in that hee saith , a double trope in one word , is a monster of speech ; whereas rhetorick calls it a metalepsis , and counts it an ornament of speech . i here also observe his vaine tergiversation ; for hee saith , that the holy ghost in the rehearsall of the things which belong to the object of faith and which are beleeved , doth never make the least mention of christs righteousnes ; and immediately reckons many things which we are in scripture required to beleeve ; amongst which is christ himselfe , and the doctrine of christ , and the promise of christ , the testimony which god hath given of his sonne ; and the resurrection of christ , every one of which includes christs righteousnes ; for if we beleeve in christ aright , we cannot but beleeve in him as a fulfiller of all righteousnes ; the doctrine concerning christ is , that he is made unto us of god righteousnes ; that hee is the end of the law for righteousnes to every beleever ; the promise of christ of old was , that christ is the lord our righteousnes , ier. . . and that he would cloath us with the robe of righteousnes , isay . . the testimony which god hath given of him is , that in him wee have eternall life , iohn . . which is the reward of his righteousnesse , and therefore righteousnesse in him : his resurrection is the evidence of his righteousnesse and perfect satisfaction , as the scriptures testifie . and thus hee saith one thing , and after brings many scriptures to confute himselfe ; and at last grants what before hee denyed ; that christs righteousnesse is to bee beleeved : hee saith that some beleeve christs righteousnesse who beleeve not christ himselfe , which is indeed a monster of speech , sense , and reason . in a word , when the spirit of god teacheth to beleeve the righteousnesse of god for iustification , romans . . and in many other places , which can be no other but christs perfect righteousnes , and satisfaction , as appeares rom. . . and againe , calls this righteousnes , the righteousnes of faith , he plainely shewes , that it is beleeved , applyed , enioyed , and possessed by faith . christs righteousnes can in no tollerable sense be called that faith whereby abraham beleeved in god , that quickneth the dead , therefore under the name of that faith , it is not sayd to be imputed for righteousnes . god neither quickned christ , nor raised him till he had fulfilled all righteousnes , neither doth he quicken any dead , but through his righteousnes , and by his spirit , communicating it to them : and therefore under the name of such a faith , christs righteousnes is by a metonymie said to be imputed . abrahams faith was that wherein he was not weake , neither doubted of gods promise , ver. . . but christs righteousnesse is not that faith , therefore it is not here sayd to be imputed . the more strong that abraham was in faith , and far from doubting and staggering by unbeliefe , the more firmly was he united to christ , and had more full communion of his righteousnes , and the more stedfastly did he stand in the state of a righteous man : and more justly might god count him for a righteous man . and therefore this argument makes against him . abrahams beleeving that god who had promised was able to performe , was the faith imputed . but this was not christs righteousnesse . therefore christs righteousnes was not imputed . the more that abraham rested on gods power and ability to performe , the more communion he had of christs righteousnes , and the more justly did god count him for a righteous man , and impute christs righteousnes to him . the faith which god imputes to us for righteousnes , is our beleeving him which raised christ from the dead . but this is not christs righteousnes . therefore it is not imputed . our beleeving in god who raised christ from the dead , is our assurance that christ had made full satisfaction for us , and therefore the righteous god who raised him up is satisfied for us , and hath accepted his righteousnes to be our righteousnes , and doth count us so beleeving , and applying it to be in the state of righteousnes . therefore this is for us and not against us . the th. argument is a bare affirmation , that to take faith in a proper sense , is more plaine and cleare , and better beleeving the apostle in this discourse , where he largely handles the point of justification : therefore he here meanes faith in a proper sense , for that is more comfortable then to teach imputation of christs righteousnes . the apostle plainely expresseth , that faith imputed , is righteousnes imputed . verse . . and it is more comfortable for us to rest on christs righteousnes , ( besides which , there is no true and perfect righteousnes to be found performed in our nature ) then to build on faith , which in the best is mingled and stayned with many doubtings often times . therefore the apostle undoubtedly intends christs righteousnes , and so he doth expresse in plaine wordes , chap. . . chap. . . and chap. . . after these arguments , he takes upon him to answere those places wherein the word faith and hope , are used to signifie their objects , that is , the things beleeved and hoped for , and here he doth use notable tergiversation , and trifling . first , he grants , that the apostle useth such tropes of speech , for indeed , it is undenyable . secondly , he opposeth and saith , that the habit of faith , may be used to signifie the object , but not the act , whereas in the examples named , gal. . . ●and . . and colo. . ● . the habit and act , espescially the act of beleefe and hope are to be understood , and indeed the apostle doth name the habit as often as the act in this present discourse , where he saith , faith is imputed for righteousnes . thirdly , he grants that the act sometimes may be put for the object , but then he flees to his old shift that christs righteousnes is not the obiect of beleeving , which i have before proved it to be : lastly , contrary to all reason he denies christs righteousnes to be the obiect of faith , as it is iustifying , whereas it is indeed the onely proper obiect of it . thus he shamefully trifles to shew his impudency , and perversenes . the fourth way of confirmation . in the fourth and last place , he undertakes to confirme his opinion by testimony , of learned divines , both ancient fathers and moderne writers , even from the primitive times , to the yeare after christ : and here he confesseth , that he dares not upon his owne reading be consident , that they generally were of his opinion , but onely resteth upon another mans testimony , whom he nameth not : belike , it was some notorious , and infamous socinian heretick , whom he is a shamed to name for his author , and that his confession is not out of humility , and modesty , but out of satanicall subtilty , to vent his poysonfull lyes , under the person of another , as the devill did vent his by the serpent , gen. . i easily gather by his impudent boldnesse , in that , upon a lying report , he dares charge his adversaries with calumny , and false report , raised upon his opinion ( unworthy the tongue or pen of sober and learned men ) to make either arminius , or socinus , the authors of it ; and that he is not ashamed nor blusheth to affirme , that from the time of luther , and calvin , the fairest streame of interpreters runs , as to water and refresh his interpretation . to the first i answere , that though the anciently condemned heretick peter anilard , ( who was gelded for his incontinency , by a man whose daughter he had abused ) layd the first ground of this opinion ; that christs satisfaction is not imputed for justification , as saint bernard shewes , epist. . yet the first authors who expressely affirmed , that faith in a proper sense , without a trope , is by the apostle sayd to be imputed for righteousnes , were socinus . part . chap. . de christo servatore , and chap. . and arminius in epist. ad hippolitum de collibus . thes. . and to his false pretence of the maine streame of writers , since calvin , and luther , running to refresh his interpretation , i oppose this challenge , that he cannot name one orthodox writer since that time , which ever held , that faith in a proper sense , is imputed for righteousnesse , and denyed the imputation of christs righteousnesse . socinus , arminius , and that hereticall sect , are the onely maintainers of that opinion . an answere to all his testimonies . to his testimonies , and his impudent boasting , of the generall consent of interpreters , i answere , first jovntly and in generall : that of all the testimonies which he hath cited , there is not one which either affirmes , that faith taken in a proper sense , is imputed for righteousnesse , or denyes the righteousnesse of christ , to be imputed to us , and accepted of god for our justification ; yea , that all divines , who are the most zealous opposers of his interpretation may say the same wordes which his authors say , and yet hold iustification by christs righteousnes , imputed : yea , and in proving that truth may with good reason , presse the same wordes and speeches rightly understood . so that a more odious example of impudency and folly , cannot be imagined , then he here makes himselfe , by making his folly and absurdity to strive for mastership with his impudency . secondly , for the particular testimonies which he cites out of tertullian , origen , iustin martyr , chrysostom , augustine , primasius , beda , haymo , and anselme , and out of later writers , to wit , luther , bucer , peter martyr , calvin , musculus , bullinger , gual●er , aretius , illyricus , pelicanus , humius , beza , iunius , pareus , they are no more but what saint paul saith , and we all acknowledg and imbrace for truth , namely , that abraham beleeving god , was counted a righteous man , and faith was counted to him for righteousnesse , and so are we all iustified , not by our owne righteousnesse , and workes of the law , performed in our owne persons , but by faith counted for righteousnesse ; for faith insted of our owne workes , layes hold on the righteousnes of christ , and apprehending , and comprehending it , is counted for righteousnes , not in a proper sense , but as it comprehends christ and his righteousnes , which calvin calles apprehending the goodnes of god , and trusting in it ; and therefore it is truely affirmed by iustine martyr , that abraham obtained the testimony of righteousnes , viz. that he was a righteous man , not because of his circumcision , but because of his faith ; which wordes imply , that faith is not the righteousnes of the beleever , but the evidence of his communion with christ in his righteousnes and satisfaction . the testimony which he cites out of musculus , is expressely contrary to his interpretation ; for the wordes are , commendata esse debebat hac fides , nō propriae qualitatis , sed propositi dei respectu , that is , this faith ought to be commended , not in respect of the proper quality of it , that is , not in a proper sense , but in respect of the purpose of god , wherby he hath appointed , that to beleeve in christ , he wil impute it for righteousnes ; propter ipsum , that is because of christ himselfe , in whom they beleeve : by which wordes it is plaine , that faith is not imputed in a proper sense to the beleever , but in respect of christ , in whom he beleeveth , and whose righteousnes he applies by faith . the wordes which he cites out of aretius , are also strong for us , against himselfe , viz. that god imputed righteousnes to abraham , that is , so accepted his faith , that hereupon he counted him for a righteous man , by imputative righteousnes , which righteousnes cannot be any thing inherent ( as faith and our owne workes are ) but the righteousnes of christ , besides which , there is no righteousnes to be found in all the world perfect and fit to iustify man before god . illyricus his wordes are as plaine against him as our hearts can wish , viz. that begging faith apprehending the righteousnes of christ , is imputed to him in sted of his owne righteousnes : where note , that the reason why god doth impute faith for righteousnes is , because it apprehends christs righteousnes , not because it of it selfe in a proper sense is fit to be counted righteousnes : being but a poore begging hand , and being inherent in the beleever , which imputative righteousnes can in no wise be . thus in all his testimonies we have not one word to prove that faith taken in a proper sense is onely imputed for righteousnes , and not the righteousnes of christ ; but many testimonies by him cited prove directly the contrary interpretation . but because i will not have such a forger , and false suborner of witnesses goe away , without the brandes of forgery , and notorious impudency : i will bring in the best learned of the ancients , and also of late orthodox divines , even those whom he cals to witnesse for him , and make them speake in the●r owne wordes , and testify to all the world , that by faith imputed for righteousnes , they understand not faith it selfe in a proper sense , but the satisfaction , and righteousnes of the lord iesus christ , god and man , performed arcording to the law in our nature , and in our behalfe . first iustin martyr testifieth , that we being in our selves wicked , and ungodly , cannot possibly become righteous , or be iustified , but onely in the sonne of god , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . now if onely in the sonne of god , and by union , and communion with him , ( which all have , who are in him ) then , onely by his righteousnesse ; ( for as the same author in the same place saith ) it is his righteousnesse and nothing else which can cover our sin . justin martyr , epist ad diognetum . and in his exposition of faith , he saith , that christ as well by his exact conversation of life ; that is , his perfect righteousnes , as by his undeserved death , hath abolished , and covered our fall and fayling , which came in by adam . irenaeus is so strict for our communion with christ , in his obedience unto death , and for our reconciliation , and justification thereby , that he imputes christs obedience to us , and saith , in secundo adamo reconciliati sumus , obedientes usque ad mortem facti . lib. . adversus haereses . cap. . athanasius in his tome , pag. . of comelius edition saith , that it is most necessary for us to beleeve scriptures , that christ who hath freed us from the curse , is the first fruites of the masse of mankind , who are by him redeemed , and that the perfect fulfilling of the law by him the first fruites , is imputed to the whole masse , his wordes are in greeke , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . and in his booke of the incarnation of the word of god he affirmeth , that we shall live and be saved , because we are partakers of the righteousnes without spot , which christ , god in the flesh , brought into the world . gregorie nyssen ; oration . in cantic. canticorum , saith , christ having the filth or guilt of my sinnes , transferred upon himselfe , hath communicated his perfect purity to me , and made me partaker of that beautie which is in himselfe . ambrose saith , as adam is the paterne of death , because of sinne , so is christ the paterne of life because of his ousnesse , commentar. in cap. , lucae lib. . chrysostom saith , if a iew aske thee , how can all the world be saved by the righteous doings of one christ ? thou maist answere even so , as all the world is condemned by one adams disobedience : cap. . ad rom. homil. . that is , by the communion and imputation of them . cyrill saith , lib. . in ioan. cap. . christ being the author of the law , and yet subiecting himselfe to the law by his obedience and righteousnes , brings the blessing and life unto us . and lib. de recta fide , he saith , it is absurd to thinke , that we should be made heires of the punishment of the first adam , by his disobedience , and should not be made partakers of the righteousnesse of the second who doth bring us backe to life , by his most perfect obedience . theodoret. sermo . . de curat . graec. affectionum saith . it is very convenient that he who so highly praised righteousnes , should in his comming in the flesh fulfill righteousnes for men . augustin . enchirid , ad laurentium cap. . saith , he was made sinne , that we might be made righteousnes ; not our owne , but gods righteousnes ; not in our selves , but in him , even as he was sinne , not his owne sinne , but ours , not in himselfe , but in us : and in his . sermon , de verbis apostoli ; god the father ( saith he ) made him sinne , that we might be made the righteousnes of god in him . behold here two things , the righteousnes of god , yet our owne ; in him , not in our selves . leo the first : in his . epistle saith , that by the innocency of one , we are all made innocent ; and that by righteousnes , derived unto men from him , who hath taken mans nature upon him . bernard in his . epistle saith , as one hath borne the sinnes of all , so the satisfaction of one is imputed to all ; it was not one which forfeited , and another which satisfied , for the head of the body is one christ . also , in sermon . ad milites templi he saith , death is made to flee away in the death of christ , and christs righteousnes is imputed to us . and a little after ; he who hath willingly bin incarnate , willingly suffered , and beene willingly crucified , will he keepe back his righteousnes onely from us . and againe ; one man sinned , and all are held guilty , and shall the innocency of one , viz. christ , bee imputed only to one ? anselme in rom. . saith , that by the righteousnes of one comming upon all the elect , they come unto iustification , that they may bee iustified by participation of christs righteousnes . these with many other testimonies which might be produced out of ancient writers , from the primitive times untill luther , doe abundantly shew , that they all by faith imputed , never dreamed of faith imputed in a proper sense , but only the righteousnes of christ apprehended by faith . but to descend to orthodox writers of this last age since luther ; it is well knowne , that they generally held imputation of our sinnes to christ , and christs satisfaction and righteousnes to us , to be the forme of iustification , by which beleevers are iustified . luther ( if wee may beleeve his owne wordes ) acknowledgeth that it was the doctrine of saint bernard , concerning justification by the righteousnes of christ imputed , and not by our owne workes , which moved him first to loath the popish doctrine , and to grow into suspition and dislike of that religion . and in his commentary on the galathians , where he doth most highly extoll the righteousnes of faith , and debateth the righteousnes of workes , hee tels us , that faith being weake in many of gods children , cannot bee accepted for righteousnes of it selfe , that is , in a proper sense ; and therefore there is necessarily required imputation of righteousnes for justification , in gal. . . see further in the very wordes of luther gathered out of his owne writings , and digested into common places by fabricius , who cites the tome , and page for every word and sentence , which are these , first concerning justifying faith , he saith , faith obtaines what the law commands ; and what is that but obedience and righteousnes , tom. pag. . and againe , by faith christ is in us , yea one body with us . but christ is righteous and a fulfiller of gods commandements , wherefore wee all by him doe fulfill them , while christ is made ours by faith , also tom. . page . when paul ascribes iustification to faith , wee must of necessity understand , that hee speakes of faith laying hold on christ , which makes christ of efficacy against death , sinne , and the law : also . tom. pag. . faith settles us upon the workes of christ without our owne workes and translates us out of the exile or captivity of our sinnes , into the kingdome of his righteousnes . and tom. . pag. . sinne is not destroyed unlesse the law be fulfilled . but the law is not fulfilled , but by the righteousnesse of faith : and page . to keepe the law , is to have or possesse christ the perfect fulfiller of the law . and tom. . page . faith iustifies , because it apprehendeth , and possesseth that treasure ; viz. christ . and page . we say that christ doth forme faith , or is the forme of faith . and tom. . upon genesis , the laying hold on the promises is called sure and firme faith , and doth justifie , not as it is our worke , but the worke of god . these speeches shew plainely , that luther conceived christ with his righteousnesse to bee after a sort the formall righteousnesse of the beleever● , though not formally inherent in him , yet formally possessed and enjoyed by faith . concerning this justifying righteousnes , luther also teacheth ; that it is not in our selves , but in christ , even his fulfilling of the law for us made ours and imputed to us tom. . page . by faith ( saith hee ) are our sinnes made no more ours but christs , upon whom god hath laid the iniquities of us all , and he hath borne our sinnes : and on the other side , all his righteousnes is made ours , for he layes his hand upon us . and page . the righteousnesse of a christian is anothers righteousnes , and comes to him from without ; it is even christ who is made unto us of god righteousnes , so that a man may with confidence glory in christ , and say , christ his living , doing , and suffering , is mine no otherwise then if i had lived , don , and suffered as he did ; as the married man possesseth all which is his wives , and the wife all the goods which are her husbands , for they have all things common , because they are become one flesh ; and so christ and the church are one spirit , by faith in christ , christs righteousnes is made our righteousnes , and all his are ours , yea , he himselfe is ours . and tom. . page . the righteousnes by which we are iustified before god , is not in our owne persons , but without our selves in god , because man shall have no cause to be puffed up with an opinion of his owne proper righteousnes before god . and tom. . page . a christian is not formally righteous , by reason of any substance or quality in him , but relatively , in relation to christ in whom he hath true righteousnes . melancthon in epist , ad rom. . . saith , wherefore pauls meaning is thus to be taken ; that christ is given for us , that we may bee counted to have satisfied the law by him , and that for him wee may be reputed righteous ; although we our selves doe not satisfie the law , anothers fulfilling of it freely given to us , and is imputed to us , and so the law is imputatively fulfilled in us , and so when the apostle saith that christ is the end of the law for righteousnes to every beleever ; that is , he that hath christ is righteous , hee is reputed to have satisfied the law , and hee imputatively hath that which the law requires . and in chap. . . upon these wordes , christ is the end of the law for righteousnes , &c. he saith , this is the simple meaning : christ is the end : that is , the fulfilling of the law to the beleever , and he who hath christ , that is , beleeves in christ , is righteous , and hath imputatively what the law requires . the booke of concord , subscribed by so many hundred euangelicall ministers of the reformed churches in germany , in the articles of iustification saith , that when we speake of iustifying faith , it is to be knowne , that these three obiects concurre which are to bee beleeved . . the promise of the benefit ; that is , mercy for remission or iustification . . that the promise is most free ; which excludes our merits , . the merits of c●r●st , which are the price and propitiation , and a little after , faith doth not iustifie because it is a worke worthy by it selfe ; that is in a proper sense , but onely because it receaves the mercy promised . and again how shall christ be our mediatour , if in iustification wee doe not use him for our mediatour , that is ; if we doe not feele , that for him we are reputed righteous . the divines of the augustin confession c●ndemne osiander , who held , that the righteousnes of faith was the essentiall righteousnes of god ; and also them who taught that christ is our righteousnes onely according to his humane nature . and in the epitome of the articles controverted by some , they with one consent affirmed ; that the righteousnes of faith is remission of sinnes , reconciliation to god , and adoption to be sonnes of god for the obedience of christ only , which by faith alone of meere grace is imputed to all believers . articulo . de fidei iustitia . and this obedience of christ which is imputed for righteousnes , they affirme to be the obedience which hee performed both in his death and passion , and also in his fulfilling of the law for our sakes . ibid. artic. . and concerning faith they teach , that in iustification before god , it trusteth neither in contrition , nor love , nor any other vertues , but in christ alone ; it is the onely meane and instrument which apprehends , and receives the free grace of god , the merit of christ and remission of sinnes , and it resteth on christs most perfect obedience by which he fulfilled the law for us , which obedience is imputed to beleevers for righteousnes , ibid. artic. . calvin is so zealous , and so cleere and manifest in teaching and maintaining the doctrine of justification : by the communion and imputation of christs perfect obedience , satisfaction , and righteousnes , that among christians , calvins institutions , me thinkes , the very father of lyers ( the devill himselfe ) should , if not blush and bee ashamed , yet in policy be afraid , to call calvin for a witnesse against it , least all that heare him , should hate him and hisse him for his open lying . the doctrine of calvin concerning iustification , consists of these speciall articles laid downe plainely . institut . lib. . cap. . first , hee affirmes in plaine wordes , that iustification consists in remission of sinnes , and imputation of christs righteousnes . sect. . secondly , he shewes what he meanes by remission of sinnes , sometimes he takes remission of sinnes in a large sense , for that act of god by which he doth communicate , and impute the full satisfaction of christ unto his elect and faithfull , that the whole guilt of all sinnes , both of omission and co●…ission is taken away , and they are no more accounted nor appeare in his sight as sinners : in this sense he calls remission of sinnes totum iustificationis , in his comment on rom. . and tot●m iustificationem , whole iustification . instit. lib. . ca , . . for indeed when the sinnes of commission are taken away by that part of christs satisfaction imputed , which is called , his passive obedience , or voluntary suffering of the penalties of the law ; and the sinnes of omission by his active obedience in fulfilling the righteousnes which the law requires , which is the other part of christs imputed satisfaction , so that the elect are now reputed as righteous men , who have the defect which came by omission supplied , and have no more the sinnes of omission imputed to them ; this is perfect and whole iustification ( as he truely calls it ) but sometimes he useth the word , remission of sinnes , in a more strict sense , for that part of gods act of communicating and imputing of christs satisfaction , which respects the passive obedience of christ , which takes away the guilt of sinnes committed , but doth not supply the omission of righteousnes , and in this sense he makes remission of sinnes but a part of iustification , and gods imputing of the active part of christs satisfaction and counting the faithfull righteous by it imputed , hee makes the other part of iustification in the wordes before cited out of his institutions lib. . cap. . sect. . thirdly , he constantly teacheth and affirmeth ; that there is no righteousnesse by which a man can stand before gods tribunall , and be accepted for righteous in his sight , but onely the full satisfaction and perfect righteousnes of christ , which he the sonne of god performed in the nature of man , for that which is not intire and absolute , and without all staine and spot : ( such as never hath beene , nor shall be found in any meere man ) can never be accepted of god , but is with him sleighted and vilified beyond all measure ; and whosoever prates of any righteousnes in mens owne workes or doings , they have no true thought , nor the least sense of the iustice of god , but make a mock of it , institut . lib. . cap. . sect. . and . and . . fourthly he affirmeth , that man is iustified by faith , when he is excluded from the righteousnes of works : & by faith layeth hold on the righteousnes of christ with which he being cloathed , doth appeare in the sight of god , not as a sinner , but as a righteous man . instit. lib. . cap. . sect. . and in the same chap. sect. . he saith , haec est mirabilis iustific●…i ratio , ut christi iustitia tecti , non exhorreant iudicium quo dignisunt , & dum seipsos merito damnant , insti extra se censeantur . fiftly concerning the office of faith in iustification , he teacheth , that faith being in it selfe weake and imperfect , and of no dignity or worth , price or value , is never able to iustifie us by it selfe , but by bringing christ unto us , who is given to us for righteousnes , it is not our righteousnes : but makes us come with the mouth of the soule opened , that we may be capable of christ ; and it is as a vessell or pot ; for as the pot full of money enricheth a man , so faith filled with christ and his righteousnes is said to iustifie us and to be counted for righteousnes : and therefore he saith ; that it is a foolish thing to mingle our faith , which is onely the instrument of receiving righteousnes , with christ who is the materiall cause , and both the author and minister of this great benefit . chap. . sect. . and in the . sect. hee saith , that faith is hereupon said to iustifie ; because it doth receive and embrace the righteousnes which is ●ffered in the gospell . sixtly he affirmes ; that the righteousnes by which b●●eevers are iustified and stand righteous before god , is , not in themselves but in christ , even his perfect obedience and righteousnes communicated to them by imputation sect. . lastly he sheweth how this righteousnes comes to bee the righteousnes of beleevers ; and to bee so communicated to them , that god doth iustifie , impute it to them for iustification , and accept as if it were their owne ; viz. by meanes of their spirituall union , and communion with christ ; by which they are made partakers of christ , and with him and in him possesse all his riches . sect. . and . and . this is the sum of c●lvins doctrine concerning iustification , briefly comprized out of his owne words , in places before cited , where the reader may be fully satified . beza in the doctrine of iustification , by faith doth perfectly agree with luther and calvin in all the former articles . first he saith ; that faith is not any such vertue as doth iustifie us in our selves before god , for that is to set up faith in the place of christ : who alone is our whole and perfect righteousnes , but faith iustifies as it is the instrument which receiveth christ : and with him his righteousnes ; that is ; most full perfection ; and we say that we are iustified by faith onely , because it embraceth christ who doth iustifie us : with whom it doth unite and couple us , that we may be partakers of him and all his goods , which being imputed to us , are sufficient that wee may be absolved before god , and deemed righteous ; confess : cap. . sect. . in notis rom. . ● . . secondly , that faith sends to christ for perfect righteousnes to iustification , and that it assures us of salvation , through his righteousnes alone , because whatsoever is in christ , is imputed to us , as if it were our owne , if so bee we embrace him by faith ; and what the righteousnes of christ is which is imputed to us , he fully expresseth and describeth to be that greatest and most absolute perfection of righteousnes : consisting in these two things . . that he hath no sinne in him . : that hee hath fulfilled all the righteousnes of the law , cap. . sect. . in notis rom. . . . and rom . . in phil. . . rom. . . thirdly he sheweth ; that we come to have communion with christs righteousnes : by spirituall union and mariage with christ . ff ( saith he ) we be united and joyned together into fellowship with christ by faith , nothing is more proper ours , then christ , and whatsoever is christs . confess . . sect. . fourthly he pronounceth , that it is no lesse then wicked blasphemy , to deny the mutuall and reciprocall i●putations of the sinnes of true beleevers to christ , and of christs righteousnes to true beleevers , in his booke of iustification against anonymus . fiftly he affirmes ; that righteousnes which iustifies men before god : must be both a full satisfaction for sinne ; and also a perfect fulfilling of gods commandements in every part , in rom. . . our learned whitakers worke against campion , in his answere to the . reason : page . and against duraus , lib. . page . . , . doth stoutly and p●thily dispute and maintaine the doctrine of iustification , by the righteousnes of christ imputed , which he proves to be the onely perfect righteousnes , able to iustifie us before god . master perkins also ; in his golden chaine ( called the order of the causes of salvation and d●…tion , chap. . ) makes the translation of the beleevers sinnes to christ , and of christs righteousnes to the beleever : by a ●…uall and reciprocall imputation , the forme of iustification . polan●… , in sy●…ate theologi●o lib. . cap. . doth maintaine the same doctrine , with luther , calvin , beza , and whitaker : and proves every point fully , by plaine testimonies , and invincible arguments , out of the holy scriptures . in his symphonia catholica , he brings testimonies of ancients , affirming every article of our doctrine . and in his theses de justifie . he shewes the consent of orthodox divines of the reformed churches . and that m●sculus , iunius , and other latter divines , are grossely abused by him , who brings their testimonies to overthrow the imputation of christs righteousnesse , will plainely appeare , if any be pleased to reade musculus upon rom. . . and . . . where he expounds the apostles wordes of the fulfilling of the righteousnes of of the law in us , to be meant . first of all imputatively by the righteousnes of another , even of christ which is also ●●rs , for we are flesh , of his flesh , &c. and by the righteousnes of god he understands christs perfect righteousnes imputed●o us . also iunius , thes. . and . doth affirme , that the righteousnesse of faith imputed to beleevers , is the righteousnes which the law requires , performed by christ ; differing onely in this , that legall is every mans fulfilling of the law in his owne person , but this ev●ngelicall , is the fulfilling of the law by christ , god and ●an our surely and mediator . thus have i vindicated the godly learned , both ●●cio●● , and modern divines , from the soule slander , most falsely laid upon them , by this impudent forger of false witnesses : and by their owne manifest testimonies , i have made manifest their unanimous consent in the true doctrine of justification , by the righteousnesse of christ , imputed to beleevers , and of them apprehended , and applied by faith . now i leave it to all indifferent readers , and zealous christians , to consider , whether it be not their duty , both to take heed to themselves , and to admonish others , that they have no fellowship , with so openly profest socinian sectaries as this man , and his followers are : you see the doctrine which they maintaine , is wicked , and blasphemous heresie : and after many admonitions given by divers grave and learned divines , and often publique confutations , and censures , passed in publique , they still persist in their pestilent heresy , & are more mad to maintain and dispute it then before ; and when truth cannot helpe them , they flee for helpe to the father of lyers , and make lyes their refuge , and in forging lies they sinne , being condemned of themselves , even against their knowledge , and conscience ; as the apostle foretold concerning hereticks , titus . . how wilfully against the knowne truth , and his owne conscience , this desperate man , hath proclaimed luther , calvin , beza , musculus , iunius , and others , to be of his opinion , i have sufficiently proved ; and if ever he did but looke into any of their writings , his owne eyes would have taught him how opposit they are to his heresie . as for his rude , impudent , and unmannerly followers , their owne lying and slanderous tongues , proclaime their pedigree from the father of liers . let this my answere by way of disputation , and confutation , be a witnesse to free from the false reports which they have dispersed even among divers , who were eye and eare witnesses , to the contrary , viz. that mr. goodwin did confute and confound me of late , when he came to performe the chalenge made by him , or at least , boldly undertaken upon the request of his disciples , who made and sent it to me , and did so mightily convince me , by the power of his arguments , that first he made me rage through anger and fury , and after made both my brother and me , to yeeld , and to confesse our former ignorance , and errors , and to embrace him as one sent from god to turne us from darknesse to light . that 〈◊〉 promised , and vowed , to renounce my former doctrine of justification , if ever god would give me liberty , and to preach his hereticall opinion : that we besought him and all his followers to joyne with us in thanksgiving to god for our illumination , by their divine doctor ; and in prayer for the grace of perseverance , in the light received . these reports of us are in our eyes no other , then if they had reported , that truth was turned unto falshood , and the divell become the father of truth : from such spirits , the god of truth , defend his church , and people , and grant a free passage to his gospel , and to his faithfull ministers a doore of utterance , that they may preach among all men every where , the unsearchable riches of christ . to that god of truth , i consecrate my tongue and pen , and do resolve with both , to maintaine his truth , by his assistance and grace , so long as life , breath , and strength shall last : and to him give all glory , now and ever . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- romans . , . romans . , . vid preface . notes for div a e- . . . argu. ans. . arg. ans. . arg. ans. . arg. ans. . arg. . ans. . ans. . arg. ans. arg. ans. arg. ans. arg. ans. arg. ans. arg. a arg. . . . . . . . sion-colledg visited. or, some briefe animadversions upon a pamphlet lately published, under the title of, a testimonie to the truth of jesus christ, and to our solemne league and covenant, &c. subscribed (as is pretended) by the ministers of christ within the province of london. calculated more especially for the vindication of certaine passages cited out of the writings of j.g. in the said pamphlet, with the black brand of infamous and pernicious errors, and which the said ministers pretend (amongst other errors so called) more particularly to abhominate. wherein the indirect and most un-christian dealings of the said ministers, in charging & calling manifest and cleere truths, yea such as are consonant to their own principles, by the name of infamous and pernicious errours, are detected and laid open to the kingdome, and the whole world. / by the said john goodwin, a servant of god and men, in the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) sion-colledg visited. or, some briefe animadversions upon a pamphlet lately published, under the title of, a testimonie to the truth of jesus christ, and to our solemne league and covenant, &c. subscribed (as is pretended) by the ministers of christ within the province of london. calculated more especially for the vindication of certaine passages cited out of the writings of j.g. in the said pamphlet, with the black brand of infamous and pernicious errors, and which the said ministers pretend (amongst other errors so called) more particularly to abhominate. wherein the indirect and most un-christian dealings of the said ministers, in charging & calling manifest and cleere truths, yea such as are consonant to their own principles, by the name of infamous and pernicious errours, are detected and laid open to the kingdome, and the whole world. / by the said john goodwin, a servant of god and men, in the gospel of jesus christ. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by m.s. for henry overton, at the entring out of lombard-street into popes-head alley, london : . a reply to: a testimony to the truth of jesus christ, and to our solemn league and covenant. annotation on thomason copy: "feb. "; the in imprint date crossed out and date altered to . reproduction of the original in the british library. eng testimony to the truth of jesus christ, and to our solemn league and covenant -- early works to . solemn league and covenant ( ). -- early works to . dissenters, religious -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no sion-colledg visited. or, some briefe animadversions upon a pamphlet lately published,: under the title of, a testimonie to the truth of je goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion sion-colledg visited . or , some briefe animadversions upon a pamphlet lately published , under the title of , a testimonie to the truth of jesus christ , and to our solemne league and covenant , &c. subscribed ( as is pretended ) by the ministers of christ within the province of london . calculated more especially for the vindication of certaine passages cited out of the writings of j. g. in the said pamphlet , with the blacke brand of infamous and pernicious errors , and which the said ministers pretend ( amongst other errors so called ) more particularly to abhominate . wherein the indirect and most un-christian dealings of the said ministers , in charging & calling manifest and cleere truths , yea such as are consonant to their own principles , by the name of infamous and pernicious errours , are detected and laid open to the kingdome , and the whole world . by the said john goodwin , a servant of god and men , in the gospel of jesus christ . i write not these things to shame you : but as my beloved [ brethren ] i warne you , cor. . . tantum religio potuit suadere malorum . non sentimus nos p●rire , dum perimus in turba . sen. london , printed by m. s. for henry overton , at the entring out of lombard-street into popes head alley , sion-colledge visited . it is a sad observation , but full of truth ; that religion never had greater enemies , than those of her owne house ; yea then those , who were pretenders in the highest to her advancement . when a commoditie is ingrossed , and brought into few mens hands , it is so much the more like to suffer , to be adulterated , and imbased . it was never well with christian religion , since the ministers of the gospell , ( so called by themselves , and so reputed by the generality of men , for want of knowing , and considering better ) cunningly vested that priviledge of the church , of being the ground and pillar of truth , in themselves ; claiming nebuchadnezzars prerogative amongst men , over the truths of god ; whom he would , he slew , and whom he would , he kept alive : and whom he would , he set up , and whom he would , he put down b . there came lately out of the presse a few papers , stiling themselves , a testimonie to the truth of jesus christ , and pretending to a subscription , by the ministers of christ within the province of london . i wish , for these ministers sake , to whom ( i appeale to him , who searcheth my heart and reines ) i wish nothing but good , and for the truths sake also , that i could conceive the impudence or boldnesse of any man , so great , as to present them in print unto the world for the authors , or subscribers of such a piece of weakenesse ( to forbeare words of more provocation , though of truth ) without their knowledge , or consent . i should be enabled by such an apprehension , both to maintain in my selfe ( at least for a time ) those honourable thoughts of their persons , which ( my witnesse is on high ) i have alwayes unfeignedly laboured to doe , though still opposed by themselves , in my way ; as also to comfort my selfe over that religion , wch they , & i , joyntly professe , that it should not suffer upon any such terms of disadvantage & dishonour , wch those papers , if ever owned by the persons , whose names are subscribed to them , are like to expose it unto . the image and superscription stamp'd upon the piece , and the men , ( especially some of them ) whose names are affixed , if not enforced , to it , are so unlike and contradictious the one unto the other , that being not able to found an act of judgement or conjecture , who should be the author , or authors of it , upon both joyntly , i am in some streight , on which hand to leane ; whether to judge & conclude any of those learned and pious men , whose names are subscribed , or those weake and unworthy ones , whose image and superscription the piece beareth , for the authors of it . but that neither dr gouge , nor mr. calamy , nor mr case , nor mr. cranford , nor any of those great names of men , which parallel with these , were either the authors , or subscribers of the said pamphlet , these considerations ( me-thinks ) should be sufficient demonstrations unto any man . . the very title it selfe , and that in the first and principall part of it , contradicts the tenour of the booke , and that in more places than one . the title pretendeth thus ( in the first words of it ) a testimonie to the truth of jesus christ . whereas the booke it selfe , testifieth against the truth of jesus christ , viz. by numbring the precious truths of jesus christ , amongst infamous and pernicious errours . witnesse . page . where this assertion , that no writing whatsoever , whether translations , or originalls , are the foundation of christian religion , is made an infamous and pernicious errour . for is not this a cleer truth of iesus christ , and asserted ( in part ) in terminis , ( but with fulnesse of evidence otherwise ) by the great apostle , where he saith , that other foundation can no man lay , than that is laid , which is iesus christ a ? except iesus christ be transubstantiated into inke and paper , no kind of bookes or writings whatsoever , neither translations , nor originals , can be ( in the apostles sence ) any foundation of christian religion . againe , is it not a precious truth of iesus christ , that no act of man whatsoever is any foundation of christian religon , the apostle affirming ( as we heard ) that other foundation can no man lay , but iesus christ : and yet the denyall of the act of man to be a foundation of christian religion , ( as viz. the believing of the english scriptures ▪ to be the word of god ) is by the said book ( pag. . ) rank'd amongst infamous and pernicious errours ? the scriptures indeed or the word of god , are ( in a regular sence ) the foundation of christian religion : but to believe them to bee this foundation , cannot be the foundation it selfe , but only a superstructure , or building upon it . so that it is only the deniall of a superstructure to be the foundation , which is charged by this learned province of subscribers to be an infamous and pernicious errour against the divine authority of scriptures . more instances of this kind , by the light whereof the palpable interfeerings between the title , and the booke it selfe , may be cleerly seen , we shall have occasion anon to observe . and is it not a very hard piece of beliefe , to thinke that learned and pious men , should so far forget themselves in the body of their book , as to break the head and title of it ? . in the latter part of the said title , in these words , and to our solemne league and covenant , there is too little good sence to answer the worth and parts of the men mentioned . for what can reasonably be meant , by a testimony to our solemne league and covenant ? do they meane , that in the booke it selfe , they give the same testimony to their solemne league and covenant , which they doe to the truth of iesus christ ? though the truth is , that it is a very poor and empty testimony given to the truth of iesus christ , to make infamous & pernioious errors of what opinions , assertions , & truths , they please , without any manner of conviction . to cry out : it is not meet that such , or such opinions should live , or be tolerated ( as if life and toleration were an heritage appropriate , and belonging of right to their opinions only , how inconsistent soever either with reason , or with truth ) is little better testimony to the truth of iesus christ , than that deportment of the jewes was unto moses , when they cryed out with a loud voyce , stopping their eares ▪ and ran upon stephen with one accord , to cast him out of the citie , and stone him , acts . . but i trust their meaning is not , that they intend by their booke , as solemn and sacred a testimonie to their league and covenant as they doe to the truth of jesus christ : . to assert the worth & excellency of it with as high an hand , with as much zeale , vigour , and vehemency of spirit , as they intend to the great truths of jesus christ , though they make no difference ( in words ) between the one , and the other . for otherwise , the solemne covenant they speake of , being onely matter of engagement , not of assertion or opinion , i know not what testimony it is capable of : unlesse they will call a regular , full , and through observation of it , a testimony unto it : which is a testimony ( if testimony it be ) unpossible to be rendered unto it in this , or in any other booke , or writing whatsoever ; the best part of this testimony consisting in going before one another in a reall , not verball , reformation . but what it is they meane , or would have others to conceive they should meane , by calling their piece , a testimony unto our solemne league and covenant , i solemnly and seriously professe is above the reach of my understanding , or learning , reasonably to imagine . have i not then reason to doubt , whether any of those men of renowne , and not rather some petty scribe , was the compiler of it ? . whereas to amplifie and enrich their title , they adde ( over and above the former expressions , of a testimony to the truth of jesus christ , and , and to our solemne league and covenant ) these words : as also against the errours , heresies , and blasphemies of these times , & the toleration of them ; i submissively demand of them , whether there be any thing more , any further matter of consequence held forth in these words , above what was contained in those first words , a testimony to the truth of jesus christ . if so , i desire to know where , or in what part of the booke , they give testimony unto the truth of jesus christ ? and again ; where , and in what other part of it , they give testimony against errours and heresies ? i can finde no other testimony given in it to the truth of jesus christ , but onely that ( which i confesse is very unproperly so called ) which stands in a citation of certaine passages , or sayings out of other mens writings , imperiously sentenced for errours and heresies ; as if the chaire of papall infallibility were of late translated from rome to sion-colledge . if not , they shall doe honestly and well in the next impression of the booke , ( though it had been more honesty to have done it in the first ) to leave out of their title , the false flourish , of , a testimony to the truth of iesus christ , as also those words , and to our solemne league and covenant ( there being no such thing in all the booke , as any testimony thereunto ) and content themselves onely with calling it , a testimony against errors and heresies , onely mollifying it with this soft and christian explication [ as we count and call errors and heresies . ] for certainly there are in these papers , that are so called , errors many , and heresies many ; which yet have nothing of the nature , but onely the names of both . so then these words in the title , as also against errors , &c. being so meerly and broadly tautologicall and empty , are a ground of conjecture unto me , that the men prenamed with their compeeres , are wholly innocent from the offence committed in making the book . . whereas the title is yet further extended by the addition of these words , and the toleration of them ; which is a meere non-ens , a thing not in being , i cannot conceive that the judgements or parts of the said persons should so farre faile them , as to appeare in print , and that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with a testimony in their pens against that , of which god made the world ; i mean , nothing , or that which is not ; i might further adde , nor is ever like to be . for if a captious pen had the expression in hand , it would finde no difficulty at all in carrying it into such a sense , which would import a calumniating insinuation against the parliament , as if they were so inclinable to grant an universall toleration of all errors , heresies , and blasphemies ; that unlesse they were counterbalanced with the feare of displeasing these mens zeale , burning so vehemently in opposition thereunto , there were no other means under heaven to take them off from it ; yea it may not without some ground of probability be conceived ; that the authours of these papers proclaime so loud their enmity against toleration , to make the friendship of all lukewarme and formall professors round about them ( being the great bulk of the kingdome ) who know not what to doe , what shift to make for a religion , if the state be not mercifull unto them in providing one or other for them . but as farre as yet i have understood , or doe for the present apprehend the genius or temper of the parliament , in reference to an universall toleration , i have reason to judge them by many degrees further from it , than to stand in need of the importune heat of these men , to quench their inclinations to it . . the book it selfe being every whit as capable of bearing the title of , a testimony against truth , sound and orthodox opinions , as ▪ against errors and heresies , ( as hath already , in part , and will more fully appeare hereafter ) it is a peece of incredibility to me , that men of that note and interest , of which the persons named , with severall others of the same line , are known to be , should so prevanicate with their respective reputations , as to prefix a single-coloured title before a parti-coloured book . . whereas all the errors mustered together in the book , are said ( in the title page ) to be collected out of their authours own books alledged in the margine , and yet ( in faire and full contradiction hereunto ) are said page . to be the very dregges and spawn of those old accursed heresies , which have been already condemned , dead , buried , and rotten in their graves long agoe , and are now by evill men and seducers , raked out and revived ( by which this present generation however is fairly acquitted from being the authours of them , revivers being no authours ) i cannot so farre undervalue the worth of the persons named , as to judge them conscious of so grosse an oversight , or ( consequently ) interessed in the composure of the piece . . whereas the subscribers of the book , stile themselves ( in the title page ) not partitively , some of the ministers , but collectively , the ministers of christ within the province of london , there being to my knowledge , several ministers of christ within the province of london , and those not of the abhorred order of independency neither , & yet commensurable too , both for parts & worth , with the tallest of the subscribers , though not equall ( it may be ) to some of them in church livings by two or three , for whom god ( it seemeth ) hath provided a better thing than to suffer them to fall into the snare of so unworthy a subscription , i must dispense very farre with my thoughts concerning the goodnesse of the consciences of the men i have named , wth their fellows , to judge them so much as acquainted with the first page of the book . i cannot so farre suspect their skill in grammar , as to suppose them ignorant of the difference between some of the ministers of christ , and , the ministers of christ ( simply , ) nor would i willingly suspect the goodnesse of their consciences so farre , as to think they would wittingly , and only to ferve a turn , as viz. to make the concurrence seeme the greater and more entire in the eyes of their simple ones , write the one , when as the truth would onely beare the other . whereas they intitle their book , a testimony to our solemne league and covenant , and pag. . acknowledge , that neither is this , nor any other oath otherwise to be interpreted , than according to the common , plain , and true grammaticall sense of it , confident i am , that according to such an interpretation as this of the said covenant , they have not done any thing at all in a regular and due pursuance of it in this piece , but severall things most notoriously and palpably against it , and with the violation and breach of it . first , all they can with any tolerable colour pretend to be here done in pursuance of their covenant , may be recall'd to these two heads . . that which is pretended to be done in order to the extirpation of errors , heresies , &c. . their pleading for presbyterian government . now ( for the first ) that here is nothing done in any regular or due way for the extirpation of errors , heresies , &c. is evident : for what is it they doe in order hereunto ? to scrapple together a few sayings , or passages out of severall mens books here and there , without taking any notice , or giving any account of their true sense and meaning in them ; yea , and some of these as faire , cleare , obvious truths , as ever themselves delivered any ; yea sometimes to falsifie their sayings , by leaving out some materiall words in the bodies of them ▪ and onely to clamor and cry out upon them , and call them , horrid and prodigious opinions , ( as pag. . ) infamous and pernitious errors , ( as pag. . ) the very dregges and spawn of those old accursed heresies , &c. ( pag. . ) antiscripturisme , popery , arrianisme , socinianisme , arminianisme , &c. ( as pag. . ) i say onely , to poure out floods of such reproachfull and foule language as this , upon mens sayings or opinions , without so much as levying one word of an argument against them to convince the assertors or maintainers of them , or without answering so much as any one reason or ground , upon which they build such assertions , is a course and practice , not onely irrelative altogether to the extirpation of errors and heresies , but very pertinent & proper for the further propagation and radication of them . for when men shall speak evill of that , as an error , or heresie , against which they have nothing of moment , or which is solid , to oppose , the assertors may very reasonably suppose , that they speak this evil of it , not out of judgment , as knowing it to be an error , but out of affection only , not being willing it should be owned for a truth . in which case they cannot lightly but be further confirmed in their error ( if error it be ) than before . again o . when men shall rend or teare a parcell of words out of the body of a large and entire discourse , which may probably carry some face or appearance of an hard or unsound saying , which notwithstanding by the authors explication is reconciled , made fully and fairly consistent with the truth , without so much as mentioning or intimating the authors explication of himselfe in these words , and then to insult and stamp with the foot , and cry out , error , heresie , blasphemy , anti-scripturisme , arminianisme , and i know not what , will any man call this a way , method , or means , for the extirpation of error and heresie ? and not rather a direct course to harden and strengthen men in both ? . when men for want of such sayings , which are erroneous and hereticall indeed , in the writings of such men , whom their carnall interests call upon them to expose , to the uttermost of their power , to the publick infamy and reproach of being counted erroneous and hereticall ; shall pitch upon such passages and sayings for their purpose , not which are ambiguous , or of a doubtfull interpretation , and so capable of a sinister or erroneous sense , as well as of a good , but which are pergnant and generally acknowledged truths , yea and fairly consistent with their own principles ; i referre to the judgements and consciences of all men , who lye not under the sad judgement of selfe-condemnation , whether there be any thing regular , or of any probable tendency in this , for the extirpation of errors and heresies ; and not rather much , which directly tends to the further radication of them . they acknowledge and professe unto the world , ( pag. . ) that they still stand as firmly engaged to the reall performance of their covenant with their uttermost endeavours , as at the first taking of it . i appeale to their own consciences ; let these judge , whether barely to cite a few mens sayings , and severall of these rationall , orthodox , and sound ( according to their authors sense and explication ) without so much as shewing or pointing , where , or in what part of these sayings , the supposed error should lye , be the utmost of their endeavours for the extirpation of errors and heresies . if it be , then are they most unworthy their places in the ministery : if it be not , then are they covenant-breakers by their owne confession . and whether the authors of the subscribed piece now under examination , have therein done any more , than what hath been now mentioned in order to the extirpation of errors & heresies , i am freely willing to make themselves judges . the night is too farre spent for them to think , that men even of ordinary judgement or consideration , will now measure or judge of error and truth , onely by their magisteriall votes , or imperious decisions , either because they are a multitude , or because they lay claim to moses chaire , calling themselves , the ministers of christ . indeed when it was midnight , the grosse darknesse of popish ignorance and superstition as yet spread upon the face of the nation , it was enough for a province of priests , or clergy-men , gravely met together in the name and authority of their sacred unction , to stigmatize what opinions they pleased , for errors and heresies , and so to render them uncleane , and not lawfull to be received or beleeved by their blinde proselites . but the day-spring from on high hath now ( blessed be god ) visited this nation , and men have put away those childish things from them , to beleeve as the church ( i. as the clergy ) beleeveth : to call error , whatsoever . church-men , though in conjunction with threescore church-livings , or more , shall baptize by the name of error : to build their faith , and soul-provisions for eternity , upon the sandy and slippery foundations of the judgements ( or affections rather ) of such men , who have put the stumbling-block of their iniquity , ( i mean this present world , and self-interests ) before their faces . these things considered , evident it is , that the architects of the building called , a testimony to the truth of jesus christ , &c. have not laid so much as one stone aright in all this pile , for their purpose of extirpating errors or heresies . therefore , as to this point , they have done nothing at all in pursuance of their covenant , but several things ( as hath been shewed ) to the violation of it . the covenant bindes them to endeavour the extirpation of errors and heresies : and they have endeavoured , or at least directly acted towards , the establishment and further rooting of them . secondly , neither have they pursued their covenant ( according to the plain and true grammaticall sense of it ) in pleading as they doe for presbyteriall government . for first , it is the assertion and confession of that great hyperaspistes of this government , mr. edwards , that the covenant of the kingdomes doth not tye us to the government of the church of scotland a . if not so , hardly then to presbyteriall government . and secondly , whether he had confessed it or no , the truth it selfe hereof had been never the further out of the way . for certain it is , that there is not so much as any one syllable , word , clause , or sentence in it , by which , according to the plain and true grammaticall sense , it engageth any man to the contending for , or endeavouring of presbytery . presbyterian government is but apochrypha in respect of the covenant . and though with magisteriall confidence enough they conclude ( but without premisses ) pag. . that presbyteriall government ( truly so called ) by presbyteries and synods , is that government which is most agreeable to the minde of jesus christ revealed in the scripture , yet as if their consciences had not taken the expression well at their hands , by that time they come to page . they abate of their former reckoning halfe in halfe . for here , speaking of the government they had declared for , which ( say they ) we conceive to be most agreeable to scripture . but upon these termes , they that should declare for the independent government conceiving it to be most agreeable to the scripture , should pursue their engagement by the covenant , every whit as much as they . therefore in whatsoever they say or plead in their testimony for presbyterial government , they do nothing at all in any pursuance of their covenant , according to the plain and true grammaticall sense of it , but only in pursuance of such an interpretation or sense of it , which lying most commodious for their honour , profit , and ease , hath by the mediation of their affections , prepared it selfe a way into their judgements , and hath there obtained the preheminence above all others : it being very incident to men , to suppose ( as the apostle expresseth it ) gain , godlinesse . a i. in all matters of question and dispute , to judge that most agreeable to the minde of jesus christ in the scriptures , which is best consisting with worldly ends . so that howsoever they flourish in the front of their book , as if they meant to give such an high and honorable testimony to their solemne league and covenant ; and again in the reere , as if they had accordingly avouched that covenant which they have sworn to god , b in this piece ; yet the cleare truth is , that their flourish , is all their fight ; they have not struck so much as one stroke with their pen in any legitimate or direct prosecution of their engagement by it . and though it had been no great work of super-erogation in case they had done ten times more than now they have , of such a tendency and import , especially upon such a goodly frontispiece of pretence , being also numerous enough ( if not many to spare , and of super-abounding abilities for such a worke yet had they not violated this their covenant , and that ten times over , yea and this in the most notorious and shamelesse manner ( in stead of keeping it ) they had consulted much better both for their credits and consciences , than now they have done . the truth is , they have made more breaches upon their covenant in this little piece , than can readily be brought to account , or ranged into form . for how often doe they dissemble and prevaricate with their professions ? and again , after all their shamelesse and most notorious prevarications , and unconscionable dealings , how doe they in the close wipe their mouthes ( with you know who , ) professing that all that they had done was in the integrity of their hearts to discharge their dutie conscientiously , in appearing for god , his truth , and cause of religion . ( p. . ) but o . was it in the integrity of your hearis to discharge your duty conscientiously , that you charge him with errors against the divine authority of the scriptures ( as you doe page . ) who you cannot but know hath bent himselfe with the uttermost of his endeavoure for the vindication of their divine authority , yea and who you have reason to judge hath laboured in this argument , as much , if not more , and this with as much faithfulnesse , as any of you all ? how did not your hearts smite yo in drawing up this bloody charge against him , lest that very book of his , which you had in your hands when you did it , and which you cite in your margine , should rise up in judgment against you in the great day , considering that your consciences could not but tell you , that he had dealt faithfully , throughly , and sincerely , in pleading the cause of the divine authority of the scriptures therein ? is this your reall reformation , to cry out midnight when the sunne shines in his might upon your faces ? . was it to discharge your duty conscientiously , that you cite some of my words barely , suppressing ( craftily ) my sence and explication of them , being neer at hand , as you do twice ( for failing in your wickednesse ) pag. . of your booke ? or doe i not , plainly , cleerly , and distinctly enough , declare unto the world ( in my treatise concerning the divine authority of the scriptures ) in what sence i hold the scriptures , whether translations , or originalls , to be the word of god , and consequently the foundation of christian religion , and in what not ? let the th and th pages of my said treatise be look'd upon . therefore for these men , to cite these words from my pen , questionlesse no writing whatsoever , whether translation or originalls , are the foundation of christian religion , which cleerly relate in the passage where they stand , to a sence a little before explained ; without citing , or so much as intimating those other words of mine , wherein ( in a true and orthodox sence ) i assert them to be of divine authority , and none other but the word of god a with more to this purpose ) can it be by the mediation of any charity whatsoever conceived , to be any other appearing for god , his truth , and the cause of religion , than theirs was , who appeared before pilate to testifie against christ , that hee should say , i am able to destroy the temple of god , and to build it in three dayes b ? . was it in the integrity of your hearts , and to discharge your duty conscienciously , &c. that you must needs make it an errour or heresie ( as you doe , page . ) to say , that it were a needlesse thing for sathan to blind the eyes of naturall men , lest the light of the glorious gospell of jesus christ should shine unto them , if they had not eyes to see , and to receive this glorious light of the gospell , when it was declared unto them ? is this to appeare for god , or his truth , to appeare against evident reason , yea common sence it selfe ? is there any need of charging a stone , that it doe not speake ; or a deafe man , that he doe not hear ; or a blind man , that he doe not see ? must we needs speake nothing but non-sence , and inconsistencies , to be free from errours and heresies ? is this the suprcma lex in the republique of presbyterie ? . i beseech you , brethern , answer candidly , and in the integrity of your hearts , where , in what phrase or clause , of the period insueing , lies the errour , or heresie ; for you charge it with one , or both , pag. . if god should not make men capable of believing , i meane , indue men with such principles , abilities , or gifts , of reason , judgment , memory , understanding , by the diligens improvement whereof , they might come to be convinced of a willingnesse or readinesse in him to receive them into grace and favour , upon their repentance and turning to him ( upon which conviction , that repentance and turning unto god , which we speak of , follows ) they which are condemned , would have their mouths against gods proceedings with them thereunto , and furnished with an excuse ? the period ( setting the parenthesis aside , which i suppose is innocent ) is but one plaine hypotheticall or connex proposition . now though i confes that consequences in such propositions may be weak and false , as well as categoricall assertions ; yet amongst all the olde accursed heresies , so long since condemned ( as you speake ) and which you say are now raked out of their graves , and revived , i remember none that was ever put into any mans roll or catalogue of heresies , in an hypotheticall forme . if your reading or memory will instruct me better , you shall find me a disciple tractable enough . but for the consequence in the proposition rehearsed , which you put downe in your catalogue for an errour or heresie , it is built upon this principle , or maxime : that a true plea of want of power for the performance of what is commanded , is an excuse in the case of non-performance . if this principle faile , the said consequence is weake : but if strong and pregnant , the consequence is partaker with it in both . but however , doubtlesse neither the integrity of your hearts , nor the goodnesse of your consciences would have suffered in the least , though you had not compelld a poore plaine hypotheticall proposition , which never did , nor meant , either you , or any other man , the least harme , to beare the crosse of being numbred amongst errours or heresies . . i desire also some ingenious shadow ( at least ) of a reason from you , how it relates to the consciencious discharge of your duty , to cite an whole page together ( besides what you fraudulently leave out , as not serving your turne ; and what you cut off , by an &c. ) consisting of three or foure and thirty lines , under the name and notion of one and the same errour . was it to represent me to your reader as a man of monstrous and prodigious errours ? one of which could not be expressed or conteined in fewer words , than would fill an whole page in o ; nor this without the interposall of an et caetera , and a false finger besides ? or was it to edifie the world in the knowledg and consideration of your great zeale , and unwearied pains , to discover errours ; so that rather than one of these should escape you , you would undergoe the labour of transcribing whole pages together ? or was it for fear , in case you had determinately pitch'd upon any one line or sentence , you might more easily have missed the errour , and have beaten a bush , where the bird was not ? or was it in hope , that within so large a circuit or compass of ground , your reader possibly might finde two or three errours , though your selves could not well tell where to find any ? but if you be unwilling to render unto mee a reason of this your extraordinary quotation , give mee leave to render one unto you . i suppose the reason might well be , because in that wherein you magnified your selves , god had a minde to bee above you for the propagating of his truth . for whereas you ( it is like ) meditated an unusuall citation to shew the world a more than ordinary errour ; god might suffer you to take this compasse of matter , that so that great and precious truth of his , which you call errour , contained therein , might be presented from your hand with so much the more advantage to be discern'd , acknowledged , and received by men ; yea by such men , who probably might never have had the opportunity to have seene so much of it , but by meanes of the booke . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . doubtlesse the passage though injuriously dealt with ( as we shall shew presently ) and purloin'd of some of its strength , towards the beginning , yet carries light in abundance in it for the conviction of any ingenuous and unprejudiced man , that what is asserted therein , is truth . . would not the integrity of your hearts to discharge your duty conscientiously , suffer you to passe by similitudes , comparisons , and resemblances , but that these must be crucified too for errours and heresies ? doubtlesse never were parables or similitudes arrested , or attainted of errour or heresie , untill now . a considerable part of that long errour we spake of , cited by you in folio ( p. . ) consists of a similitude . when you make errors and heresies of similitudes , you give us just occasion to thinke , that you are not so much troubled with some mens errours and heresies , when you finde them , as you are with seeking errours and heresies in other men , untill you finde them . but they that will find knots in rushes , are necessitated to knit them themselves . but i beseech you , tell me seriously : is it matter of conscience indeed with you , to punish the innocent with the guilty ? if so , i am not for your lawes , nor common-wealth . but . what say you to the mangling , maiming , and deforming the sayings of your brethren , when you cite them , by leaving out very emphaticall and materiall words , and clauses ; yea such scripture expressions , as you found in them ? or doe you not in citing the passage ( lately pointed at ) with which you are pleased to adorn your catalogue of errours about naturall mans free will ( p. . ) after these words , ( line . ) in a way of justice , leave out all this [ and according to the law , an eye for an eye , and a tooth for a tooth , this man having cut off the legs of another . ] were you afraid , that the passage would not looke so like an errour , as you would have it , if any lineament of scripture should be seen in the face of it ? what you expresse in your testimony , you say , ( p. . ) that you expresse not with a bitter , but with a bleeding heart : but what you leave out , relating to this , and to other passages cited by you ( of which notice hath been already taken ) i feare you leave out , rather with a bitter , yea and bloody , than bleeding heart . . doe you in the integrity of your heart , and cut of conscience to appeare for god and his truth , judg it an errour , or heresie , to say , that if a doctrine be asserted by paul and peter , it ought to suffer no disparagement for being found among the tenets of arminius ? for of this assertion of mine you make an errour ( page . ) unlesse the words imprison'd in a parenthesis , which are these , [ as most assuredly it is ] must beare the blame . doe you not want errours and heresies to complete your catologue & roll , when you are necessitated to muster and take in such as these ? are not most of your own doctrines found amongst the tenets of arminius ? some of you ( i suppose ) cannot be ignorant , but that they are : but doe you therefore judge them errours or heresies ? yet . the testimony now under contest , is in nothing more unlike , at least more unworthy , the ministers of the province of london , than that importune , and most unnaturall straine in it , which presenteth sayings and opinions , for errours and heresies , which are fairely and fully consistent with their owne principles and grounds . hereof many instances might readily be produced , were not prolixity inconsistent with our present designe . is not that of the apostle , other foundation can no man lay , than that which is laid , which is jesus christ , a one of their principles , and maine grounds ? and yet ( p. . ) they make mee erroneous , for not granting another foundation besides jesus christ , viz. translations and originalls : which notwithstanding , sensu sano , i doe assert also for foundations . againe , is it not one of their owne principles , that no act performed by man , can be the foundation of christian religion ? yet pag. . they stigmatize me as an erroneous person , for affirming the act of believing the english scriptures to be the word of god , to be no foundation of christian religion . yet again : is not that of paul , that was not first , which is spirituall , but that which is naturall ; and then that which is spirituall , b another of their principles ? yet ( pag. . ) they represent it for an errour in me , to say ; doubtlesse men are naturall men , before they are sprirituall , and supernaturall . once more , is it not a ground and principle of their own ; that men are but naturall men , till faith comes and makes them spirituall , or supernaturall : yet they condemn it ( pag. . ) for an errour in me to affirme , that wee cannot be made spirituall or supernaturall , but by believing . yet once more ; is it not one of their own principles , that god hath promised favour , acceptation , yea and salvation it self , to those , who shall believe ; yet they make mee a transgressor in point of errour , for saying , that if it be possible for naturall men to believe , then may they doe such things , whereunto god hath by way of promise annexed grace and acceptation . yet once again : i suppose it is a principle or supposition of theirs ; that the apostle all along the th chapter of the epistle to the hebrewes , speakes of such a faith , which is true and saving : and yet ( p. . ) they make me an erroneous offender , for saying , that to believe , . that god is : . that he is the rewarder of those who diligently seeke him , is all the faith or beliefe that the apostle makes simply and absolutely necessary to bring a man unto god . . into grace and favour with him . caeterá de genere hoc adeò sunt multa , &c. . certainly it cannot be out of the integrity of your hearts to discharge your duty conscienciously , &c. to dissemble , connive at , and take no notice of , the very selfe same opinions published , printed , countenanced , recommended , by men of your owne interest and party , yea by some amongst your selves , honouring such with the titles of orthodox and sound men notwithstanding , for which you most unworthily , and contra-conscienciously defame others , who doe not syncretize with you , labouring in the very fire day after day , in your preachings , in your printings , in your conversings , to render them the off-scourings and abhominations of men . let all the passages and sayings , which with all your double diligence , and the help of an evill eye , you have discovered and found in all my writings , and presented upon the theatre of your testimonie , as conteyning matter of error about naturall mans free will , and power to good supernaturall , be drawn together , and the rigidest extraction made of whatsoever imagination it selfe is able to imagine erroneous in them ; there will be found the very same spirit and quintiscence of errour ( if yet it were errour ) cloathed too with visibility enough , in that discourse of mr. john ball , intituled , a treatise of the covenant of grace , lately published by mr simeon ash ( one of the subscribers . ) recommended to the christian reader by three of them more , viz. daniel gawdry , edmond calamie , anthony burgesse ( besides two more of the assembly . ) the said author , p. . of this discourse , writeth thus . no man is hindered from believing , through the difficultie , or unreasonablenesse of the command , or through his owne simple infirmity , as being willing and desirous to believe , but not able ; which inability deserves pitty : but his inability is of corruption and wilfulnesse : he doth not believe , because he will not : he is unable , because hee doth not covet or desire , which is inexcusable . is there not every whit as much power , and freedome of will here attributed unto naturall men , as can be wrested or wrung out of any , or all those erroneous passages of mine , ( erroneously so called ) which are cited in the provinciall testimonie ? do i there say any whit more , or doth mr ball here say any whit lesse , than that in case naturall men were not wilfull , they have a sufficiency of power to believe ? and that it may not be pretended that this passage fell from this authors pen at unawares , or that the contents of it were not his setled and bestresolved judgment , you shall find the very same things , and almost in the very same words , re-asserted by him , pag. . of the same discourse . are those opinions erroneous , or hereticall in independents , which are orthodox and canonicall in presbyterians ? or if they be as erroneous in the latter , as the former , why is not i. b. brought upon the stage , as well as i. g. in the habite and reproach of an erroneous and hereticall man ? yea and why doe not simeon ash for publishing , and daniel gawdry , edmond calamie , and anthony burgesse , ( together with edward reynolds , and thomas hill ) for countenancing and recommending erroneous and hereticall opinions , bear their proportions also in the censure and shame ? accessaries deserve to suffer , as well as principalls . it is said indeed of the donatists , that they disparag'd and condemned all other christians , but were indulgent in point of censure , towards their owne a : and of eunomius the heretique , that he bare with all manner of wickednesse in his owne seate b are not these sons of presbytery to be found in the same condemnation ? is their love any whit more extensive , than only to cover the multitude of their owne sins ? or their zeale , than to censure and punish the sins of other men ? is this their faithfulnesse unto god , for which they seeme affraid ( page . ) lest the world should frowne upon them ? or is this the fruit and product of their glorious profession ( page . ) that as ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god , in zeale to gods glory — from their very hearts and soules , they utterly detest and abhorre all the errours , heresies , and blasphemies whatsoever swarming amongst us in these times , howsoever minced , masked , and palliated , and by whomsoeverembraced and covntenanced ? can the children of this profession be ignorant , that there are amongst themselves discrepances in judgements , and contrarieties in opinions ? or doth not this plainly imply , that there is apprehension of errour in the respective dissenters amonst them ? yea it is famously known , that some of the ablest and most learned amongst them , differ from the greatest part , if not from the generality , of his fellowes , in matter of opinion , and that about a subject of as high a nature , as any within the whole compasse of christian religion . if then in zeale to gods glory , they from their very hearts and soules utterly detest and abhorre , all the errours , heresies , and blasphemies amongst us , by whomsoever embraced and countenanced , how commeth it to passe , that they doe not declare with the same acrimonie of spirit , and height of indignation , against their owne errours ( mutually so believed ) wherein they rise up , like lions , against the supposed errours of other men ? brethren , give me leave to be serious with you : i believe you are straitned in your owne bowels , in comparison of the enlargment which you have in mine , ( though i feare , you believe nothing lesse . ) i hear of many complaints , and sad regrets from you ; as that the ministers , and the ministerie of christ , are of later times , much despised : your auditories , much depopulated : your respects with the people , brought well nigh to a morsell of bread . i beseech you consider what i shall say unto you : hath he that voluntarily puts his singer in the fire , any cause to complain , that the fire burns him , and puts him to paine ? or he that sowes only tares in his field , to finde himselfe agrieved , that the earth makes him not a returne in wheate ? or is it any wonder at all , if , when under a pretence of so much zeale to gods glory , such integrity of heart , such conscienciousnesse of appearing for god , his truth , & cause hf religion , such unpartiall detestation of all errours , heresies , and blasphemies amongst us , by whomsoever embraced and countenanced ( with many such like glorious and glittering professions and protestations more , wherewith your testimonie is garnished ) you do in the very face of all these professions , all things contary , stigmatize the truths of god , with the odious and hatefull names , of infamous & pernicious errors & heresies , set your selves to pull downe with both your hands the precious names and reputations of the faithfull servants of god , you brethren , & this without any cause at all given by them , report their sayings by halves , leaving out their explications , on purpose to defame them , represent such opinions & assertions as erroneous and hereticall in them , which you allow for orthodox & sound in your selves , exasperate and incense the sword of the magistrate against such as are peaceable in the land , and wish you no harm ; soment divisions , multiply distractions , obstruct the quiet composure and settlement of things in the land , recompencing no degree of all this unworthinesse , with any proportionable or considerable good ; is it any marveil ( i say ) if , going thus to work , coupling such vile & unworthy actions with such precious and specious professions , you sink and fall in the hearts of men daily more and more ? know this for a certain , that the hearts and consciences of men will never be able to rise up before you , & call you blessed , unles they be holpen up by the hand of some visible worth , and excellency in your wayes . following showrs of uprightnesse and sincerity from your hearts and hands together , will make your crownes of honour to flourish againe upon your heads ; which otherwise will certainly languish , fade , and die away . in the meane time ( to return to our businesse in hand ) though i finde the best of you no better , than a bryar unto me , in pursuing mee with the out ▪ cries of your pens for a man of i know not how many , nor of what , errours ; yet are there foure men amongst your . who have appeared in this ostracisme against me , to their deeper shame , and confusion of face , than others . for what ? they who publish and print bookes of errours , they who countenance and recommend bookes of errours , to be read ; can these men find in their hearts to lift up their heele against those , who shall receive them from their hand ? delicti fies idem reprehensor , & author ? at scelus hoc meriti pondus , & instar , habet . i. what ( man ! ) the author , and rough censor both of the same crime ? the crime , if crime it be , which i committed have , yet merit doth praise , and approvement , not reproof , from thee . mr. ash , mr. candrey , mr. calamie , mr. burgesse ? how could these names of men anoynt mr. john ball with oyle , and salt me withfire , onely for speaking what he speaketh , yea and what themselves speak in him , or in that book of his , which they recommend unto me ( amongst others ) let the sun of christian ingenuity be ashamed , and the moon of humane candor be abashed . for ( questionlesse ) such a thing hath not been heard of , either amongst the sonnes of nature , or of god , for many generations . but for the opinions , or opinion rather ; ( for though the citations be many , yet the error , if error if must needs be , contained in in them all , is , for substance , but one ) which this grand subscription voteth an error in me about naturall mans free will , and power to good supernaturall ; i desire the whole covent , or colledge of the two and fifty , and all that dogmatize with them against the said opinion , to take knowledge , . that it is no new or strange doctrine in the reformed churches : . that it was a doctrine taught and avouched by some of the reformers themselves ; and those not of the least note , either for learning or religion . one instance in either shall suffice for the present . for the former , that the doctrine condemned for error by the error-makers of the province of london , is the publickly-received doctrine of the reformed churches within the province of orleance in france , appeares from severall passages in a treatise of paulus testardus , pastor of the reformed church at blois , entituled , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , sen synopsis de natura & gratia ; the said passages being compared with the approbation of the book printed in the beginning of it : the tenor whereof imports , that the said book was ordered by a synod of the reformed churches in the said province , to be perused and read by two of the ministers ( there named ) who give this testimony of it upon their reading , that they find nothing in it repugnant to the doctrine of their orthodox churches , and in that respect they judge it worthy publication . the said author in the treatise mentioned , having ( p. , , . &c. asserted and cleared three several wayes or means , whereby god calleth men unto communion in that covenant of grace , which he hath made with mankinde , the first , by providence ; the second , by the ministery of the word ; the third , by the effectuall workings of his spirit . p. . he affirmeth , that in all these wayes or methods of calling men , god doth not onely shew unto the sinner what his duty is to doe , but also exhibits and gives unto every man thus invited and called , power wherewith to perform it , and be saved , if he will : insomuch , that if he that is invited [ or called ] in the most generall [ & lowest ] way of invitation of all , be not saved , he is altogether inexcuseable before god . this the apostle paul teacheth expresly : that which may be known of god ( saith he ) is manifested in them , or unto them ( meaning the gentiles ) for god hath made it manifest , &c. that they might be without excuse . but certainly , excuseable they had been , if they had been willing , and onely wanted power a there is not an haires breadth of power to superuatur all good , more attributed by me unto naturall men , than is clearly , and above all controversie asserted in this passage ; which yet is avouched ( as ye have heard ) by two sufficient witnesses , and these of the approved order of presbytery it self , to be the doctrine of the orthodox reformed churches within the province of orleance in france . but whereas my london subscribers transcribe so many passages of mine under their title , or head , of , errors about naturall mans free-will , &c. let all these passages be sifted , from the first to the last , by lines , words , syllables , and letters , yet will there not be found the least or lightest infinuation of any freenesse of will in naturall men to any good that is supernaturall : yea they that have been the most constant and intelligent hearers of me in the course of my ministery , cannot but testifie on my behalfe , that i have still upon all occasions , resolved the condemnation and perishing of men into the most miserable and strange servility , bondage and thraldome of the will to corruption and vanity : yea and have urg'd and prest the necessity of the grace of god for turning the captivity of it , and setting it at liberty . therefore , o province of london , study thy teachers , that thou mayst know what , and what not , to learn of them . it were easie to draw forth many more passages out of the treatise specified , of the same import and inspiration with that which hath been produced ; but this is sufficient for these two ends and purposes ; o . to demonstrate , that the authority of a province of ministers , though all receiving the honour of orthodox from one another , is yet a miserable support or stay for the judgements or consciences of men , in matters of doctrine . that which is asserted for orthodox and sound by a province of ministers in france , is importunely censured and condemned for an infamous horrid , and pernicious error , or heresie , by a province of the same profession in england . o . to shew , with how good a conscience the subscribers joyntly affirme , ( as they doe , page . that they finde , to the abundant satisfaction of their judgement , and rejoycing of their spirits , the confession of faith humbly advised by the assembly of divines , singularly pious , prudent , sound , and agreeable to the scriptures , and confessions of other churches . if it be agreable with the confession of those churches lately mentioned , they have as much , or more , need to confesse their fault , as their faith . as to the second particular , wherein i affirmed , that that doctrine which these men call infamous , pernitious , horrid error and heresie , was also taught to the full extent and compasse of what i deliver in it , by some of the chiefe reformers themselves , it appears sufficiently by this ensuing passage from m. bucer , who in his enarration of the epistle to the romanes , chap. . vers. . writeth thus : a here let us observe two things ; that god in no age whatsoever , left men destitute of the doctrine of salvation : therefore whoever at any time perished , perished through their own default [ or neglect . ] for god so bedeweth ( or washeth ) nature with his light , that they only remaine strangers unto righteousnesse , who willingly , & of their own accord cast it from them . there are at this day nations not a few , to whom the gospel of christ is not sincerely preached : others there are , who heare nothing of it . but if these did not voluntarily put from themselves the desire of righteousnesse , the lord ( questionlesse ) would so animate them with his spirit , that they should , or might , perform the things of the law , commit themselves wholly to his ( grace , or ) goodnesse , and doe unto their neighbours what they would that they should doe unto them . hence it would come to passe , that god would sooner send an angel unto them , as he did unto cornelius , than suffer them to remain ignorant of his christ . but whilst through impious ingratitude , they detain his truth revealed unto them , in unrighteousnesse , they doe not onely deserve to have no more of the good spirit given unto them , but even to be givenup to a reprobate sense , &c. the other thing here to be observed , is , that we our selves also hearken unto the work or effect of the law , wch is written in our hearts , that same right and divinely-impressed sense of things within us , whereby we are continually called upon for holy and honest courses , and called back from those that are dishonest , and that we narrowly listen unto and mind , those thoughts which accuse us , and our conscience , when it witnesseth against us . — verily , we reject god himself , when we do not yeeld obodeince to such holy cogitations as these . i appeale to the consciences of the testimony-subscribers themselves , whether this passage be not much fuller and ranker of the spirit of that opinion , which they reckon amongst the very dregges and spawne of those old accursed heresies , amongst noysome , infamous , horrid , and pernitious errors , than any , than all the passages they have raked together out of my writings . yea if they please , they may read more of the same authors judgement upon the same point , and to the same purpose , in what hee comments upon verse . of the chapter ; where ( amongst other things ) hee conceiveth , that paul offered this to the consideration of the jewes , that the gentiles , even before christ was revealed unto them , were partakers of true righteousnesse a . which is a saying ten degrees beyond the line of any of mine . and yet m. bucer was never ( to my knowledge ) counted an arminian by any , nor branded for an heretick , or a man of a rotten judgement , by any , unlesse it were by the ministers of the province of babylon , who ( as the story saith ) dig'd him out of his grave , and made a sacrifice by fire of his dead and buried corps unto the genius of their bloody religion . it were easie to fill many pages with passages from other orthodox and reformed authors , as melancthon , musenlus , &c. wherein they deliver many things fully consonant with what i have written , and the subscribers branded with the broad seale of their authority , for erroneous . but miserable is the condition of truth , which must not be suffered to passe by the warrant of its own light , without letters of recommendation from the darknesse of men . nor were it any matter of much more labour or difficultie , to bring in antiquity it selfe , and particularly those very authors who were the greatest opposers of pelagius , and the then errors denominated from him , as hierome , austin , and prosper by name , with their mouthes wide opened in approbation , and co-assertion of the same things , for which i am arraigned at the tribunal of sinon a colledge , as an hereticke . it is manichisme ( saith hierome ) so condemne the nature of man , and to despoyle it of free-wil . ( unlesse any man can find better , or more proper english for , liberii arbitriū . and elswhere , thou blasphemest in vain , continually buzzing it in the ears of the ignorant , that we condemn free-wil : let him be c●demned , who condemneth it c ▪ yet again in another place : we so maintain free-will , that we deny not the adjutory ( of grace ) to it in all things d . augustine himself , the famous antagonist of pelagianisme , maintains to the full whatsoever is asserted by me , concerning the wil and power of man . if there be no grace of god ( saith he ) how doth he save the world ? if there be no free-will , how doth he judg the world e ? and again , the catholick faith , neither denies free-will , either in respect of a bad life , or of a good : nor doth it attribute so much to it , as if without the grace of god it could doe any thing , &c. yet again , the pelagians conceit that they know some great matter , when they say , god would not command that which he knew could not be performed by men . i wonder who knowes not th●●… f . it seemes austin supposed no man ignorant of the truth of that , which these subscribers persecute under the name of a pernitious error . the fame author yet again , we exeorate the blasphemy of those , who affirm , that god enjoy●●… any thing that is impossible unto men , and that the commands of god cannot be observed and kept by every man in particular , but onely by all men in common , or in generall h . i●…austins verdict will passe , the subscribers are the blasphemers , not the author of the divine authority of the scriptures asserted . consonant to the last recited saying of austine , is this of basil the great , it is impious to say , that the precepts of the holy ghost are impossible i . so that evident it is , that these men confute pelagianisme by plain manicheisme ; nay , that which onely themselves call pelagianisme . for it clearly appeares by the writings both of hierome and austin , that the question between pelagius and them , was not whether man hath freedome of will , either in respect of good or evill : for these fathers constantly defend themselves under the shield of this assertion against pelagius his charge . b but whether men , notwithstanding their freedome of will , did not still stand in need of ajutorium gratiae , the auxiliary or adjutory of grace , both for the performance of , and perseverance in , what was good . but these men have exchanged the fathers adjutorium , into their own compulsorium . for me , i never denied , but alwayes have asserted the necessity of grace by way of adjutory ; onely the necessitation or compulsion of grace , is no article of my creed . reader , i had not troubled thee with so much as any one of these quotations , but that it is the calamity of these times , to judge truth and error still commensurable with the votes of those men , who having ingrossed the honour and repute of being orthodox men unto themselves , square these votes of theirs concerning truth and error , not by any principles of the cleerest reason , nor yet by the scriptures soundly interpreted and understood , but only by the traditions of the elders , and by what they read in the writings of such men , whom they are pleased to take into part and fellowship with themselves in their owne glory , and vote , orthodox . but to leave this ; there is yet one thing more in the testimony ( so called ) to the truth of jesus christ , &c. which hath too much shadow in it for the pensill of such exquisite artificers , as the ministers of the province of london : and therefore , represents it with much suspition of being a spurious and suppositious piece , and not the genuine {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; of such masters . for doth not this testimonie once and againe ( viz. p. . and . ) commend the governement , whereunto the hearts of the authors seeme to be so impotently lifted up , by the successe wherewith it hath been crowned ? doubtlesse the reall and true ministers of the province of london , having such abundant opportunity of converse with travellers from all parts , cannot but be full of the truth of this information , that there was more of the truth and power of religion in england under the late prelaticall government , than in all the reformed churches besides . the best successe , which they can with any colour of truth entitle this government unto , is but the successe of the gardiners sheers , which prosper only to the keeping all even and smooth in the privet-hedge , by the snipping off , and keeping under those thriving twigs and branches , which otherwise would out-grow their fellows , and hinder uniformity . lastly , me thinkes there is too palpable a reflexion of prejudice and dishonour upon the parliament in severall passages and strains of this piece , to issue from between the feet of the sacred conclave of sion-colledge ; though wiser men ( i confesse ) than my selfe , resent the affirmative stronger in this , than the negative ; conceiving an evill eye looking out of a faire face of words upon the parliament , to be no dissenting character of the genius of the ministers ( indeed ) of the province of london . to draw towards a conclusion ; if any man shall aske why i could not be content to sit downe by my charge , with the same patience wherein others charged as well as i , possesse their soules ; no mans pen moving against his accusers , but mine ? i answer . . i was loth , that either the stones in the walls , or tiles upon the houses , should take the honour and comfort of this service , out of my hand . if these should hold their peace ( saith christ ) the stones would erie a . the honour of christ must be vindicated : and if the jewes , who are a people , will not doe it , the gentiles , who are no people b , shall and will . if men indued with reason and understanding , shall not appear in asserting the honour of god against those , who sin with an high a hand against it , the inanimate and senceless creature will certainly rise up , and take away this crowne from them . . the demand proposed , supposeth that , which ought not to be supposed ; viz. that my patience is not only exercised , but overcome , by my charge . the truth is , though i doe not ●it downe by it in patience , yet i rise up with it , and beare it upon my shoulder , with more than patience ; even with joy and gladnesse ; as i stand charged from heaven to doe : my brethren , count it all joy , when you fall into divers temptations c . i trust the tenour of my answer doth no wayes imply , that there is so much as the least haire of the head of my patience fallen to the ground . . one part of the rest , who are compelled to drink of the same colledge cup with me , may possibly either have reversed the errors here charged upon them , or otherwise be conscious to themselves of insufficiency to defend them . another part of them , for ought i know , may rise up in their own defence , as i have done ; yea , and possibly may prevent me . but for those assertions of mine , which these ministers have baptized by the name of errours , i neither know any reason why i should proscribe them , nor yet despaire of strength from god , sufficient to maintain them against all contradiction whatsoever . but . ( and lastly ) the chiefe motive which ingaged me to this undertaking , was , because i looke upon my self as the chiefe , if not the only person , for whose sake the . hands were at this time drawn out of the bosome to smite the rest . when the chiefe priests and elders , had with more than ordinary diligence and importunity wrought pilate to signe his warrant for the crucifying of christ , because matters deserving death were not so cleer against him , as they desired ; they procured two thieves to be crucified with him , the one on his right hand , the other on his left a , who in all likehood had not suffered death , at least at this time , but only to colour over the foule act of crucifying christ , with the justice of their execution ( if yet this execution it selfe were allowable by the lawes of god ) and to represent the lord christ as a man only worthy such company . in like manner , i have some reasons importuning me to conceiue , that this court of assize was called principally , if not only for my sake : and that no testimony had been given at this time , either to the truth of jesus christ , nor against the errours or heresies of other men , had not the two and fifty prudently judged it expedient that my name should be blasted , and not the reputation of a whole province of ministers suffer by the greenenesse of it . the grounds of my beliefe in this point are , . the sore wound given to their cause by hageomastix displayed , &c. was never mollified with oyle , untill now . they never eased themselves of that sorrow , till this congregatio magna being called to advice about the cure , prescribed this recipe in order thereunto ; viz. that . or . innocent lines of this treatise should be cited to appear upon a stage , purposely built for errors and heresies , and here receive the shame due to innocencie and truth . but in vain have they rub'd themselves & their sore upon this dictamnum a the imflammation is never a whit allayed by it . yea to this day — haeret lateri aethalis arundo ; nor have the . hands of this subscription , with all their versatile motions and endeavours , been able to wriggle , or wrest it out . . i judg the greatest part of the other errours and heresies produced upon this theatre , to be beneath their cognizance , by reason , partly of the sillinesse , contemptiblenesse , and irrationality of them ; partly , of the obscurity and inconsiderablenesse of their authors . i can hardly believe that such eagles would have stoop'd to catch such flies , such dead flies , as these , but only to put into my oyntment , to cause that to cast forth a stinking savour . . the said testimony produceth my errors & heresies ( so called ) by whole pages , & half pages , as if it were loth to leave any romth for other mens ? whereas my fellow-heretiques and erratiques , are quickly dispatch'd ; little being cited out of their books in comparison ; i suppose , lest their errours should seeme as great , as large , as dangerous , as mine . . lest i should seem not to abound with errors above the rate and proportion of other delinquents in this kind , they cite sayings ( almost ) of all sorts out of my writings to make errours of , as parentheses , similitudes , suppositions , assertions of a most direct and cleer consistency with their own principles , and what not ? . this testimony to the truth of jesus christ , made all the hast was possible after the comming out of the divine authority of the scriptures asserted , to blast the credit , and way-lay the acceptation of it with the generality of men . whereas there are very few , if any , of those other writings , which are attainted of errour and heresie , with mine , but have been extant in print some considerable time , yea some of them ( to my knowledg ) several years . but by the way ; is it not very in-harmonious , that these great professors of enmity and abhorrency against errors and heresies , should persecute the assertion of the divine authority of the scriptures ? these , with some other considerations of like nature with them , render the jealousie very opportune and strong , that my selfe only was the standing mark , at which the arrow of the testimonie was shot ; and that the rest were made to stand by only to give aime . they are brought in to partake of my condemnation ; that so i might partake with them in their guilt and shame ; or at least with such of them , who being guilty , deserve shame . to conclude : whereas the subscribers , with many others of the same interest , are still instant upon all occasions , in season , and out of season , to declaim against me , as a friend to publicans and sinners ( i mean , to errors avd heresies ) and cry out that i desire & plead for a toleration of them all ; i here solemnly profess , in the sight of god , angels , and men , that whoever they are , that beare the errors and wicked opinions of the times , as a burthen of sorrow upon their hearts and souls , i bear my share and part with them . nor do i believe that any of them all , who seek to render me the hatred of men , by the imputation of such a delinquency , have run , either faster , or further , in the way of god , for the pulling up those noysome weeds out of the fields of christ amongst us , then i have done . i have professedly ingaged my self in the publike court of my ministry against . of those errors ( and am at this day in full prosecution of this my ingagement ) which are generally look'd upon as the most predominant amongst us , and unto which , all others whatsoever , may ( i conceive ) easily be reduced ; antinomianisme , anabaptisme , anti-scripturisme , querisme , or seeking ; unto which i might adde a fifth also , called manicheisme : which , had it not the countenance , which the other . want , would soon be found to be of as sad and dangerous a consequence to religion , as they . i am a foole to boast my self : but wise men have compelled me : and wise men ( i hope ) will pardon me . i have again & again in severall of my writings , declared my sense and judgment to be , that no error whatsoever ought to be tolerated ; but that every errour sufficiently detected , and evicted , ought to be proceeded against , in such a method and way , and upon such terms , which are justifiable by the word of god , or by such principles of equity and good conscience , that are found in prudent , disingaged , and consciencious men . the height of my interposals in this kind , hath been this ; . that men be very cautious and warie , lest intending only to crucifie theeves , they crucifie christ also . . that they do not make thieves of all those , who through infirmitie or mistake in judgement only , declare themselves to be men . finis . errata . page . l. . dele , to . p. . l. . for yo , r. you . p. . l. . after , mouths , r. open . p. . l. for consequence , r. consequences , p. . l. . for quintiffence , r. quintessence . p. . in the margiu , for inexcusabilis , ( in some copies ) r. inexcusabiles . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- b dan. . a cor. . . a antap. pag. . a tim , . . b pag. . a divine authority of ser. asserted , p. . b mat. . . a cor. . . b cor. . . a donatistae qui praese omnes alios christianos condēnabant , se veritatē censurae in suos relaxabant . p. mart. loc. p. . b eunomius suis sectatoribus quodvis scelus indulgebat . i plead for no errour , truly so called : nor for any persons , worthy blame & censure . let malefactors and thieves be crucified , but let not christ be crucified ▪ with them . a in quo nihil , quod ecclesarum nostrarū orthodoxarū fidei ●repugnet , repe●imus ; e●que nomine dig num publicà luce judicavi . mus . a qòd in omnibus vocandi rationibus , deus peccatori , quid debeat non modo ostendit , sed & omni invitato , vocato , det posse illud praestare , & salvari , ●i velit : adeo ut si non salvaturis , qui generalissimâ tantū ratione invitatus est , fit prorsus inexcusabilis corā deo. id expressè ▪ docet paulus , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( inquit ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} manifestū ▪ factum est in ipsis ( gentibus scilicet ) deus enim manifestū secit , &c ▪ ut inexcusabilis ipsi sint . at certe si , etsi maximè voluissent , non potuissent , ●uissēt excusabiles . p. t●st●r dus , synopsis . thesi . p. . a hic duo observemus ; deum nullis unquam saeculis homines doctrina salutis destituisse : proinde , quicuuque unquam perierunt , suâ culpâ periisse . naturam ita perfundit suâ iuce deus , ut hi tantum à justitiâ alieni maneant , qui eam ultrò à se rejiciunt . sunt & hodiè gentes non paucae , quibus evangelium christi haud quaquam sinceriter praedicatur : sunt quae de eo nihil prorsùs audiunt ▪ hi autem si non ultrò justitiae studium repudiarent , dominus indubiè spiritu suo sic eos animaret , ut quae legis sunt praestarent , committerent se totos ipsius bonitati , proximis facerent quae cucupiunt fieri sibi . hinc fierer , ut deus citius angelum eis mitteret , uti fecit cornelio , quam ut ignorare eos christū suum pateretur . sed dum impiè ingrati iniquitate suâ detinent revelatam jam ipsis veritatem , merentur , non solum ut nihil praetereà boni spiritus accipiant , sed etiam ut dentur in sensum reprobum , &c. alterum hic observandum est , ut ipsi quoque huic operi legis , quod in scriptum est cordibus nostris , recto illi , ut divinitùs impresso sensui , quo perpetuò vocamur ad sancta & honesta studia , revocamur à pravis , auscultemus , cogitationes nos accusantes , & cōscientiam contrà nos testificantem , exaudiamus . — deum sanè ipsum rejicimus , cum sanctis hujusmodi cogitationibus non obsequimur . a sed ut superiùs quoque ostendimus , magis id ex instituto pauli suit , ut objiceret judaeis , gentes etiam ante revelatum eis christum , verae justitiae fuisse compotes . a the ancient records , ( as i 〈◊〉 informed ) m●ntion it by the name , not of sion , but sinon colledge . but they that have authority to make errors , may change names at pleasure . manichaeorum est , hominum damnare naturam , & liberum auserre arbitrium . advers. pelag. in proem. c frustra blasphemas , & ignorantium auribus ingeris , nos liberum arbitrium condemnare . damnetur ille , qui damnat . ad c●esiphontem d sic liberum servamus arbitrium , ut ei per singula adjutorium non negemus . hicron . l. . dial. advers. pelag. e si non sit dei gratia , quomodo salvat mundum ? & si non est liberum arbitrium , quomodo judicat mundum ? aug. epist. . f fides catholica non liberum arbitrium negat , sive in vitam malam , sive in bonam : neque tantum ei tribuit , ut sine gratiâ dei valeat aliquid , &c. aug. epist. . magnum aliquid pelagiagiani scire se putant , quando dicunt , non juberet deus , quod sciret non posse ab homine fieri : quis hoc nescit . aug. de grat. & lib. arbitr . c. . h execramur blasphemiam eorum , qui dicunt impossibile aliquid homini à deo esse praeceptum ; & mandata dei non à singulis , sed ab omnibus in communi posse servari . idem . i {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . b dicat pelagius , per gratiam nos posse praestare legem dei , & pax est . aug. a luk. . . b rom. . . c iam. . . a mar. . a dictamnus , or dictamnum , is an herbe ( in english ditanie ) having a property to draw out any thing fastned in the bodie ; upon which wild beasts are said to rubbe themselves , when they are hurt , or woūded , for their ease and cure . the vnrighteous iudge, or an answer to a printed paper, pretending a letter to mr io. goodvvin, by sir francis nethersole knight. wherein the rough things of the said pretended letter, are made smooth, and the crooked things straight: and the predominant designe of it fully evinced to be, either an unscholarlike oscitancie and mistake, or else somewhat much worse. / by the said jo. goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the vnrighteous iudge, or an answer to a printed paper, pretending a letter to mr io. goodvvin, by sir francis nethersole knight. wherein the rough things of the said pretended letter, are made smooth, and the crooked things straight: and the predominant designe of it fully evinced to be, either an unscholarlike oscitancie and mistake, or else somewhat much worse. / by the said jo. goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by g. dawson for henry cripps, and are to sold [sic] in popes-head allie, london : . a reply to: nethersole, francis. the self-condemned. or, a letter to mr jo: goodwin. annotation on thomason copy: "jan. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng nethersole, francis, -- sir, - . -- self-condemned. charles -- i, -- king of england, - -- early works to . great britain -- politics and government -- - -- early works to . great britain -- history -- civil war, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the vnrighteous iudge, or an answer to a printed paper, pretending a letter to mr io. goodvvin,: by sir francis nethersole knight. wherein goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . luke . the vnrighteous iudge , or an answer to a printed paper , pretending a letter to mr io. goodvvin , by sir francis nethersole knight . wherein the rough things of the said pretended letter , are made smooth , and the crooked things straight : and the predominant designe of it fully evinced to be , either an unscholarlike oscitancie and mistake , or else somewhat much worse . by the said jo . goodwin . false witnesses did rise up : they laid to my charge things that i know not . psal. . . quidam christianae ac fraternae charitatis obliti , in tantum existimationem nostram quoquo modo student laedere , ut suam se evertere nocendi cupiditate non videant . aug. ad . artic. sibi falsò imposuos . london , printed by g. dawson for henry cripps , and are to sold in popes-head allie . . an answer to a printed paper , pretending a letter to mr. io. goodvvin , by sir francis nethersole knight . sect. sir , on the . of this instant , i received together with a letter in writing , a packet of papers and books from you ; for which i then apprehended my self bound to return you thanks , and it was really in my heart so to doe . but two or three daies after comming casually to the sight of a printed paper of yours , which you call , a letter to mr. jo. goodwin , &c. i clearly found your present to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a giftlesse gift , by discovering your heart to be far from me . sir , though all undue comportment with the greatnesse of this world , be the first born of abhominations to my soul , which as well my reason , as long experience , have taught mee to be a temper very creative of enemies , and oppositions in the highest , from the world ; yet , god assisting me , the method of my warfare against my enemies , as it hath been , so shall it still bee , that of heaven , which encountreth evill with good , and attempteth the reconcilement of enemies , by the pardoning of their sins . so that though your pen be very provoking , and the attempt of it ( at least in appearance ) to cast me out of the patient and peaceable possession of my soule ; yet you shall not need fear any reciprocation of incivilities from mine , nor that i will offer with your fire . onely i must desire you to beare that christian freedome at my hand , which commandeth me to shew men their errours in their true shapes , without the least palliation or partiality when i am called to it . your addresse in the first word● of the letter you sent me , is this : sir , i send you here with a printed letter , with the books therein mentioned , whereof i have no doubt , but you will finde your selfe obliged to take notice in print . i candidly presume that it was onely some oversight in you , that ( with the scribes and pharisees ) you said and did not , and doe not look upon it as any breathing of that spirit in you , which wrought in them . but assuredly i received no printed letter from you , whereof i find my self any waies obliged to take notice in print . and for that printed letter , subscribed with your name , which i understood you had published many daies before i came to a sight of it ; and of which i might very possibly never have so much as heard , ( many papers of that qualitie , rising and falling in the world , without my cognizance of either ) upon my first perusall of the contents of it , conceiving it to be purum putum , quanta quanta est , convi●ium , i was in suspence , whether i should return any other answer unto it , then that of hezekiahs servants unto rabshakeh , which was by silence ; or at most , then that of michael to his antagonist . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the lord rebuke thee . but upon further thoughts , considering how apt men of weak understandings , and strong affections unto evill , are , to blesse themselves with a thing of nought in order to their encouragement in their evill wayes : i rather inclined to draw up somewhat a more particular answer unto it ; chiefly to wipe off the undue aspertion of that iniquitie ( falsly so called ) variablenesse of judgement , and withall to correct the malignitie of some other ingredients therein . sect. but sir , i beseech you first an ingenious and christian account , how you can call that , a letter to mr jo. goodwin , which you never sent to him , nor took any probable course that he should ever come to the sight of it . if you had considered the nature of the writing , and upon what terms you published it , might you not rather have stiled it , a defamation of mr. jo goodwin ? i confesse i finde a few lines in it , of some affinitie with part of a letter , which about ten or eleven daies since was brought to me by an unknown messenger , from a ( then ) unknown authour , and who at that time judged it a point of wisdom to veile his name ( though presently after it seems he condemned himself of iniquitie , and variablenesse in judgement , by proclaiming his name upon the house top ) but such a synecdoche as this unlesse charitie in her more then humane exaltation be the interpreter , will not save the credit of such a title from the disparagement of an untruth . concerning this letter , you tell me ( pag. . of your printed paper ) that god did not give me the grace to entertain the friendly purpose of him that sent it , ( therein expressed ) with sutable friendlinesse , but suffered me to reject it with this slighting , if not scornfull answer , that i would make no answer to the letter of an unknown person . but sir , upon this accompt i must crave leave to tell you ( i know not how you and your messenger will agree in dividing the shame between you ) that i rejected not any friendly purpose of yours , nor any other mans , with any slighting , or scornfull return . my answer to your messenger was to this effect , that if the gentleman , who sent the letter , would please at any time to repaire unto me , i was ready to give him the best satisfaction i could ▪ but that it was contrary both to my minde and practice , to return answers in writing to the letters of unknown persons , refusing to trust me with their names . i know no delinquency in this answer against any principle of civility ( much lesse of religion ) if you shall please to shew me any , you shall finde me very pliable to the impression . sect. but sir , that ( in the passage mentioned ) is of the worst resentment , that you take the name of god in vain , in telling me , that god did not give me grace to intertain , but suffered me to reject such a motion , as you are pleased to call , a friendly purpose : whereas you might much more reasonably , and with lesse sin ; have said , that god gave me grace to reject it , and suffered me not to entertain it . all the friendlinesse of purpose that i was able to discerne in that letter , was to draw from mee my judgement particularly , and that under my hand in writing , touching all the proceedings of the army , how farre i goe along with them , and where i leave them ; an intention or demand , as in it self captious and insnaring , and requiring much more time to answer , then the writing of a few lines of plain english , or then i could through the pressingnesse of much businesse upon me , spare ; so proceeding from an unknown person , especially from one , who refused to bee known so much as by his name , much more suspicious , and theatning . besides , i had so much the more reason to be jealous of this importune and suddain demand of my judgement , in matters of such high import ( for the account was demanded by the return of the messenger ) because i had distinctly , and in plain english , declared my self , how farre my intent was to justifie the armie in their late and present proceedings , in my right and might , towards the end of the second section ; viz. in all such actions , which were of like tenour and import , with that of their late garbling , or sifting of the parliament , i. ( if english yet more plain can be spoken ) in all such actions ; the equity or justnesse whereof is not impeachable upon any other terms or ground , then that . sect. and truly sir , though i love not to look over narrowly for mens intentions at their left hands , yet when intimations this way are pregnant , and look me in the face , i dare not say , i see them not . i really wish that you could reconcile those passages in your printed letter , with such a friendlinesse of purpose towards me , as you professe , which my understanding , though assisted with much charity , knoweth not how to break , or tune into such an harmony . for i had much rather beleeve , though upon weaker and lesse convincing grounds , the friendlinesse of any man towards me , then the falsnesse of his heart , upon the clearest demonstrations . but to deale plainly with you , i must borrow the saith of that generation of men , who ( as solomon saith ) will beleeve every thing , to beleeve , that so many reproachfull terms as your pen mustreth up against me , as pope , new light , selfe-condemned heretique , and so many groundlesse suggestions , as that souldiers and officers of all degrees have been seduced by me , that the members of the house of commons now sitting , have been led out of the rode of their loyalty by me , that i greatly appeare in the face and body of my late discourse , intituled , right and might , &c. to teach things contrary to what i assert in my anticavalerisme ; and moreover , that so many instigations of persons of severall interests and capacities , independents , souldiers , parliament men , &c. to fall foule upon me , in case i shall refuse to do that , which is most unreasonable , sencelesse , and impious for me to doe ; i must ( i say ) borrow the faith of fooles , to beleeve that such symptomes as these , are consistent with a sound mind , or friendly purpose towards me , in him , on whom they are found . sect. whereas you very unworthily insinuate against me , that all independents in the army , as wel souldiers as officers of all degrees , may reasonably be judged to have been seduced by me , as likewise that the parliament now sitting , ( though you are not wise enough to cal them a parliament , nor to determine in what capacity they fit ) may have bin led out of the rode of their loyalty by the observation of my irregular motion , &c. the god on high , who must shortly judge both you & me , knows , & these worthy persons themselves , both parliament men & souldiers know , that i never was the man from whose tongue or pen the least word , or syllable , tending to the forming , fashioning , or directing of any their proceedings , ever came . onely when i clearly discerned , that through better teachings then mine , they were ingaged in wayes of conscience and honour , such as were ( through the blessing of god ) like to blesse the nation , wherin notwithstanding , in stead of thankes and encouragements deserved , they met with contradictions and hard sayings from many , and were ( with their lord and master ) numbred amongst transgressors , i conceived my selfe obliged in duty , to being forth the righteousnes of their cause into the clearest light i could , and to stop the mouthes of gainsayers with my pen . and therefore whereas you desire , that the members of the honourable house of commons now sitting ( though in what capacity you are not wise enough , you say ; not willing enough , i feare , to determine ) would change their game , and give over hunting of lions and wild boares , i mean the grand disturbers and destroyers of the nation , and pursue after dead dogs and fleas , or hunt partridges on the mountains , harmlesse , weake , and contemptible men , doe you not at once declare your selfe an enemy to the peace and safety of the kingdome , and to all those that are righteous and innocent in it , and a friend to thieves and murtherers . whether you do declare your selfe , or no , upon such terms as these , i am not wise enough to determine : but i beseech you doe your selfe judge . sect. but the high prize , which in your printed letter you run so shenuously to obtaine , is to disparage me as a man of a variable and inconsistent judgement , yea to article against me as a selfe-condemned heretique ▪ unlesse i shall presently with the turning of an hand , or in the twinkling of an eye , remove mountaines , ● . ( in your dialect ) give you such reasons for the change of my judgement [ since the writing of my anticaval●risme ] which may satisfie you , that they are of sufficient importance to make such an alteration in me . good sir , at this point i must deale plainly with you , and tell you ▪ that here you speak so irrationally , that you leave me very little hope of finding much strength of reason in those other writings of yours , the perusall whereof you commend unto me , and so have much obstructed my way to the reading of them . for first , must be needs be an heretique ( much more a selfe-condemned heretique ) who changeth his judgement , without giving an account unto the world of his change ? change of judgement even upon such termes as these , may as well be a reduction unto orthodoxisme , as a deviation unto heresie , secondly , every opinion , whether retained in judgement , or deserted , doth not make an heretique , whether in the one case , or the other . thirdly , as to the particular opinion , a recesse from which you presume in me , but prove not at all , and conclude to be heresie ; i desire to learn from you , when , where , or by what authour it was ever adjudged heresie , to hold , that whosoever sheddeth man● blood , be he never so high , or never so low , his blood lawfully may be shed by man in a judiciary way . fourthly , it is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , an importune and very unreasonable demand , that a man should presently , and ( as it were ) with a wet finger , especially at all times , and under any circumstances whatsoever , give an account of the change of his judgement , though in the greatest and weightiest matters . fifthly , it is yet much more unreasonable , to stigmatize a man with heresie , unlesse upon the change of his judgement , he shall account to men of opposite judgement , for his change , in such arguments and grounds , which shall be satisfactory unto them , that such an alteration in him is justifiable . doe not your self say ( in the postscript of your printed letter ) that for a man to confesse himself convinced of an errour he hath made publique , especially if his judgment hath not bin swaied by weight of reason , but overballa●●ed by private interest , is one of the hardest points of selfdeniall ? so that ▪ according to your principles , he is an heretique , nay a self condemned heretique , who cannot justifie or maintain those opinions which he holds , by such arguments , which will make men of contrary judgement , deniers of themselves , yea and this in one of the hardest points of self deniall . if this bee your touchstone to try heretiques , and self condemned heretiques by ; i feare that neither you , nor any of your partie will stand before the touch . but sixtly ( and lastly , for this ) that which ( in this quarter of your discourse ) is at deepest and most desperate defiance with all principles of reason , and common sence it self , is , that you pronounce him a selfe condemned heretique , who shall not give such an account , as hath been described , and evicted for most unreasonable , unto you , and others , of the alteration , of his judgement . for ( i beseech you ) is it not possible for a man , to have grounds and reasons satisfactorie to himself , and to his own judgement and conscience , for what he holds , unlesse he publisheth them in print ? or is a man self condemned , who verily , and in the simplicitie of his heart beleeveth , that he hath sufficient ground , for what he holdeth , or professeth , unlesse he maketh publique profession of his grounds also ? were you a self condemned heretique , untill the other day , when ( as you say ) you took off your mask , and declared for the king , against both parliament , and armie , and their proceedings ? for doubtlesse till of late , you gave neither me , nor the world , any reason at all , much lesse any that did satisfie either me , or others ( as neither yet have you done ) that you were not , i will not say , in an heresie ; but , in an errour , or failer in judgement , whilest you stood by the cause of prerogative , and will , turning your back upon the cause of equitie , and of the just interest of the kingdome ; which , being interpreted , is none other , but the cause of god . were you therefore a man condemned in your self , because you did not justifie your selfe before others ? or if you were a man justified in your self , though condemned by others , whilest you kept your reasons and grounds to your self , of that opinion , for which others condemned you , why may not i be admitted to take part with you in the priviledge , upon the same terms ? sect. and whereas you essay to bruise the heele of my right and might well met , that so the credit of it may halt in the apprehension of men , by going about the bush to represent the author of it , as a man of a desultorie , and variable judgement , and hereby condemning himself of iniquitie ; i perceive hereby , that you deale more in colours , then in substances . for whatsoever my judgement was in the point you wot of , whether negative , or affirmative ; when i wrote my anti-cavalerisme , certain i am , and certain also might you have been , if you had looked a little better , before you had leaped , that there is nothing , either in the passage which you transcribe , or in any other part of the discourse , of any import for your turn , i mean , which asserteth , or presenteth it , as a thing unlawfull , to touch the lives of tyrants , or ( in your dialect ) of kings ( for day and night , it seems , to you are but ths same ) in a due processe or course of justice . again , whatsoever my judgment is now about the same question , or point , whether i judge it lawfull , or unlawfull , to smite the lives of tyrants , or king tyrants , with the sword of justice upon sufficient evidence of crimes deserving death : certain i am , that in my late discourse , intituled right and might , &c. i affirm nothing positively , on the one hand , or the other . suppose that in the one discourse some things were expressed not with so much steadinesse or circumspectnesse of terms , ( though i am conscious of no such defect here , as i shall account presently ) but that a weak understanding might inferre , and possibly think that my judgement stood against the lawfulnesse of all judiciarie proceeding , against kings , in matters of life and death ; and upon a like failing in my other discourse , ( though to my best understanding i am as blameles here , as in the other ) that i seem to hold a lawfulnesse of such proceedings ; must i upon the account of other mens weaknesse , or incogitancie in reading , be condemned for variablenesse in judgement , or as one , who have condemned my self of iniquity ? these ( questionlesse ) are prerogative dealings , and have no communion with principles of equitie , reason , or religion . sect. but because you seem rather to insult , then say ; that the passage by you transcribed from p. . of my anti-cavalerism , stareth the composer of my late pamphet in the face with a wide oden mouth , whereby ( if your rhetorique transcendeth not my grammar ) you mean , that it manifestly contradictetth what i affirm herein , suffer me in a few words to shew you how vain your rejoycing is in this behalf : for , first , that i speak nothing in the passage , concerning , much lesse against , any judiciarie triall of , or legall proceedings against kings , is cleare ; first , because in the very first words of the passage , which lead the sense of the whole , i use the expression of offering violence to the person of a king , or attempting to take a way his life [ viz. by violence ] now the taking away of the life a malefactour , by the hand of justice , in a due and regular processe of law , was never ( i beleeve ) by any man , termed the offering of violence to his person . secondly , that unlawfulnesse of offering violence to the person of a king , which i here insinuate , i oppose to the known doctrine and practice of the jesuites . now the manner and methord of offering violence to the persons , or of taking away the lives of kings which the iesuites both teach and practise , is known to be , not by bringing them to a judiciall tryall , or upon evidence of matter of fact against them , deserving death , but by wayes of assasination , poysoning , and such extrajudiciall and murtherous practises . thirdly , for the proofe of the unlawnes which i here plead , of taking away the lifes of kings , i mention davids conscience smiting him , when he came but so neer the life of a king , as the cutting off the lap of his garment . this also plainly shews , that the unlawfulnes of taking away the lives of kings , which i here maintain , onely respects the fact as perpetrated , or to be perpetrated , by private men , or out of a course of publique justice . for david , when his conscience smote him upon the occasion specified , was a private man . now for me to argue thus ; a private man and without due processe of law , ought to make conscience of taking away the life of a malefactor , how worthy so ever to die ; therefore a magistrate upon evidence of the fact in a legall way , ought to make conscience of it also , were to beat the aire , or to give water instead of wine . fourthly , by the tenor of the objection , whereunto the passage under contest is reponed by way of answer ( in part ) the relation and proportion between which , is soon seen in the discourse it self ( though it would be somewhat long here to argue it ) it evidently appears that the said passage looketh not towards any triall of kings for their lives by lawfull magistrates , but onely impleads all violence offered , or to be offered , to them , by private men . sect. nor doth the simile in the passage , wherein the ●ives of kings are resembled to consecrated corn , meet to be reaped or gathered by the hand of god himself , necessarily import any such thing as you would worm , and work out of it , as viz. that it should be sinfull , or unlawfull , for any man , or men whatsoever , in what case soever , to take away the lives of kings . because , whatsoever is done in a way of justice , and according to the will , word , or commandement of god , is frequently in scripture , and may in sufficient proprietie of speech , be said to be done by god himself . this rule , though perhaps you cannot finde in the homilies of the church of england , yet may you finde it more then once in the writings of reformed divines . it is frequent in the scriptures ( saith mr. ainsworth ) to make one the doer of a thing , which hee commandeth to be done . * thus ioshua saith unto achan : insomuch as thou hast troubled us , the lord shall trovble thee this day . immediately it follows : and all israel threw stones at him , and burned them with fire , &c. * the lord himself is said to have troubled achan , because what ioshua and the people did to him in this kinde , was according to his will and appointment . thus god himself said unto moses , i will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters * : whereas the sequell plainly sheweth that it was aaron , and not god himself , otherwise then by his command , that smote therewith upon the water . see also matth. . . cor. . . upon the former of which places , zanchie ( i well remember ) delivereth the same rule , for substance , with that mentioned from m. ainsworth . so then , god having commanded , that who so sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his blood be shed ; * whose blood soever is shed in a regular obedience to this command , may be said to be shed by by god himself . sect. nor will those words in the passage , wherewith you make your capitall flourish , in vvhat case soever , any whit more countenance your forged cavillation , if you mind the words immediatly following . the intire clause is this : wee conceive it to be the just prerogative of kings , in what case so●●●● , to bee secure from the violence of men . you by making majorites of those words , in vvhat case soever , and minorites , of those which follow , would ( as it should seeme ) faine imply , that those words , which you make great , comprehend more , and extend farther , then their fellowes following them , which you make little as viz. not onely to secure kings from the violence of men ( whereunto they are expresly limitted ) but from the justice of god also administred by men . take heed what y●● doe ( sayth the good king jehosaphat to the judges which he appointed in the land ) for ye execute not the judgements of men , but of the lord , and he will be with you in the cause and judgement , take heed and doe it : for there is no iniq●itie with the lord our god , neither respect of persons . * besides , if i should have intended to say , without all limitation and exception whatsoever , that it were the priviledge of kings , not to have their lives taken from them by men , without sin , in what case soever , i must have supposed , that the philistines sinned in flaying saul in battle ; that eliud sinned in killing eglon , joshua in putting so many kings to the sword , as hee did , samuell in having agag to pieces &c. which certainly never came within the verge of my thoughts nor ( i think ) of any other man , who knew his righthand from his left in matters of religion . sect. nor is it of any value for the crediting of your deduction from the passage in hand , to pretend and say , that if i intended no other security therein unto kings , then onely from the violence of men in an extrajudiciall way , i made them herein but equall unto private and ordinariemen ; it being the privilege , of the meanest of men , that their lives cannot be taken from them without sin , otherwise then by the sword of the magistrate , and that in a due processe of law for to this the answer is easy ; that there is no inconvenience or absurdity in it at all , to assert that in an emphaticall and peculiar way unto kings , which in a generall consideration belongs unto other men also . the scripture it selfe doth this frequently . the apostle peter , chargeth christians to honour the king : and yet in the same verse , and in the same terme , hee commandeth them also to honour all men . * in like manner , it is written ( saith the apostle paul ) thou shalt not speake evill of the ruler of thy people : * and yet the same apostle asserts the same priviledge ( i meane , of not having evill spoken of them ) unto all men ; charging christians ( and in them , all others ) to speake evill of no man . yet againe , he exhorts that supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks be made for all men ; and immediatly adds , for kings , &c. so that it is no soloecisme at all in reason , or discourse , either to say , or imply that common privileges , having an accent put upon them , are presents for kings . more might be added upon this account : but i desire not to be tedious unto you ▪ sect. thus then you see sir , or cannot lightly but see , how strangely you were mistaken in construing that passage of mine , which you cite in your printed letter . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : your treasure , prove but coales . i beseech you take the advantage of the present occasion , and consider with your self so much the more narrowly , whether in many other cases , as well as this , the shaddowes of the mountaines doe not seeme men unto you . and yet i confesse that c. b. hath justified p. d. in his un-cleark-like and frothy mistake . for he being a d. d. standing in christs stead , and speaking in christs name , unto men , abused at once his great lord and master , his auditorie , his calling , his brother , and himself in a most desperate and shameful manner teaching for doctrine the empty traditions of your pen , and making part of his audience glad , and part sad , with that lie , which the sight of your paper ( it seemes ) had put into his unhallowed mouth . before i leave the businesse in hand , because i would secure you against all mistakes , ( if it be possible ) i beseech you once againe that you will please tounderstand , that in all that i have said to vindicate the innocencie of my mis-understood passage , from the offence , which either you take at it , or would fasten upon it , i have said nothing , either by way of affirmation , or negation concerning the state of my judgement , about the question of the lawfulnesse , and unlawfulnesse , of judiciall procedings against kings , at the time when i composed my anti-cavalerisme . all that i have said or done , upon this account , amounts to no more , then onely to a cleere probation , that there is nothing at all in the passage so oft mentioned , that can reasonably , or with any tolerable construction of the words , be drawne to a comportance with their judgement , who judge it absolutely unlawfull to subject kings to that righteous law of god , which saith , that who so sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his bolod be shed . sect. but good sir , suppose it should be granted you , that in the passage you transcribe , icleerly shew my self to have been of your judgment , touching the unlawfulnes of all judiciarie proceedings against the lives of kings , what earnings can you make of it ? or upon what ground of reason , or with what face of ingenuity , can you upon such a supposition , prejudge me a self-condemned heretique , unles i shal either strengthen your hand by a publique avouchment of my standing in the same judgement still , or weaken it , by giving such an account of the alteration of my judgement , which may satisfie you ? if you shall pretend , that the reason why you would tie mee to this sowre apple-tree , is , because i speake doubtfully upon the point in my right and might , my cleere answer is , that in this discourse i interpose nothing at all concerning it , unless ( haply ) it be , by holding forth and asserting such grounds , in order to the cleering of another question , wherein ( possibly ) you , and others of your judgement may conceive , that the negative of what ( according to the supposition mentioned ) i formerly held touching the universall exemption of kings from triall , is concluded also . but sir , give me leave to say , that if those grounds and principles of reason and religion , which i assertin my discourse , and upon which the whole fabrique of it is built , be first in themselves solid and cleere : and secondly doe with alike soliditie and cleereness , contradict and overthrow that judgement of yours , which you suppose to have been sometimes mine with you ; then i have already performed that hard taske , which upon your supposall of the alteration of my judgemennt , you impose upon me ; and have given you and others , such reasons , which may , and ought to satisfie all reasonable men touching such an alteration of judgement in me . if the said grounds , be not solid and cleare in your apprehension , and withall seem to you to oppose that judgement of yours , which ( as you will needs suppose ) was sometimes mine , the confutation of them lieth upon you , not upon me , who judge them inconfutable . and howsoever it is a thing ridiculously ●●reasonable , for a man , when his judgement is opposed in a discourse , to impose upon the author a confucation of his own discourse . or if this be the task you would enjoyn me , to declare whether these principles and grounds . i assert , doe contradict and overthrow that judgement of yours ( supposedly mine quondam ) this is ( in a manner ) as unreasonable , as the former . for it is a labour of much difficulty , and requiring long study , and in some cases not far from an impossibitie , for a man to beat out all the particular consectaries , consequences , and conclusions , which are virtually contained in all such principles , which he hath occasion to deliver and assert . if you shall yet pretend and say , that what you desire of me to vindicate my selfe , is obvious , and easie to be done , being no more but this , that i would declare , whether i conceive , or apprehend , that supposed former judgement of mine concerning the untouchablenesse of the lives of kings , to bee consistent with those grounds and principles , which i build upon in my late discourse : i must again answer , that such a thing as this is indeed easie to be done , but no ways honourable or comely , for me in this , nor for any man else to doe in the like case . hee that shall ( especially in publique ) deliver his judgement , in matters of great weight , presently , yea without a proportionable retirement of himself for the exact casting up of all particular accounts relating to such an undertaking , apparently runs a double hazard ; the one , of misleading others ; the other , of dishonour to himself . sect. and thus sir you see , how every waies unreasonable , uncivil , and importune that imposition is , which you lay upon me ; i must be , by your award , a self condemned heretique , unlesse to gratifie your prerogative humour , i shall acquit my selfe from that , which is no crime , by an act of self condemnation . sect. whereas you say , that for ought you know , i am the first , and onely minister of any reformed church , that ever was of this , by my self stiled iesuiticall , opinion ; but are not able to bring the least proof that i am of any such opinion , which i so stile , i should sin against the law of charitie , which forbids me to suffer sin to rest upon my brother , if i should not reprove you for it , as a saying of as much unworthinesse , as could lightly fall from the pen of a sober man . for , i beseech you , where are your evidences , where are your proofes , nay where are your presumptions , where are your shaddows of conjecture , that i am of any such opinion , which is by my self stiled , iesuiticall ? for ought i know , you are the first and the onely man professing christianitie , who ever aspersed mee with the blot , or blood rather , of such an opinion . but if a declaration of my self ▪ against this opinion ▪ will satisfie you , i here professe , with an heart enlarged , and mouth wide opened , in the presence of heaven and earth , of god , angels , and men , that i seriously detest and abhorre that opinion , which is by me stiled , iosuiticall . but if you suppose that opinion , to be by me stiled iesuiticall , which maintaineth a lawfulnes of judiciarie proceedings , as well against kings as other men ; supposing withall that i am of this opinion ( though i am as yet sensible of no obligation upon me to tell you whether i be of this opinion , or no ) yet i must inform you of this , that in case i be of the opinion , i neither am the first , nor the onely minister ( by many ) of the reformed church , who so judge : yea , and were not my inclination strong , to hope the best , untill i know the worst , i could hardly allow you the sanctuary of those words , for ought i know , as clean , for your refuge . it is very hard to beleeve , but that you know that many ministers of the reformed church have been of that opinion before , and besides me , if i should be of it . or if you do not ( indeed ) yet know it , mr. prynn's large tract , intituled the soveraign power of parliaments , and kingdomes , published in the year . if your please to peruse it , will abundantly satisfie you in this behalf . in the very front and title page of this book he rejoyceth over it , as being such a piece , wherein the superioritie of our own , and most other forraign parliaments , states , kingdomes , magistrates , collectively considered , over and above their lawfull emperours , kings , and princes , is aboundantly evinced , confirmed by pregnant reasons , resolutions , precedents , histories , anthorities of all sorts , &c. pag. . of his discourse , he cites a large passage from zuinglus , which begins thus : when princes shall act perfidiously and besides the rule of christ , they may , [ cu● deo ] with gods leave , or approbation , be deposed , by the consent and suffrage , either of all , or of the better part of the people . afterwards , in the same passage , the authour imputes it to the defact of publique iustice , that the wickednesses of tyrants escape without punishment , as they doe . and ( saith he ) there wants not wayes or means , for the taking away of tyrants , but there is a mant of publique iustice ( with much more of like import . ) in the same page there is a passage likewise of calvin , which makes it dissimulation joyned with nefarious perfidiousnesse , and a fraudulent betraying of the libertie of the people , in magistrates , if they connive at kings outragiously encroaching upon , and insulting over the inferiour common people , and shall not withstand their raging licentiousnesse , &c. but there is a book intituled , lex , rex , printed here at london , anno . composed ( as is said , and as the stile , and worth of it importeth , though the stile of it , i confesse , is the least part of its worth ) by a minister , a man of the greatest eminencie for parts of learning and judgement in the whole kingdome of scotland , and ( if fame bee not a flatteresse ) inferiour to none in pietie ; this book i would gladly recommend to your serious perusall , if you have not already met with it . to relate what this author sayes of his own , and citeth of other mens , in full comport with the opinion now enquired after , would farre exceed the bounds of my intended answer . take a first fruits of the harvest . if a king ( saith this authour , pag. . ) turn a parricide , a lyon , a waster , and a destroyer of the people , as a man he is subject to the coactive power of the laws of the land . if any law should hinder that a tyrant should not be punished by law , it must be , because he hath not a superiour , but god : for roiallists build all upon this ? but this ground is false : for the estates of the kingdom , who gave him the crown , are above him , and they may take away , what they gave him , as the law of nature and god saith . the substance of this passage he proveth by severall substantiall arguments following . pag. . he saith thus : wee hold that the law saith with us , that vassals lose their farme , if they pay not what is dve . now what are kings , b●● vas●als to the state , who , if they turn tyrants , fall from their right ? again p. . . if then any cast off the nature of a king , and become habitually a tyrant , in so far he is not from god , nor any ordinance which god doth own . a while after , thus ; there is a court of necessitie , no losse then a court of justice ▪ and the fundamentall laws must then speake ; and it is with the peopl● in this extremitie , as if they had no ruler . many other passages there are in this piece relating to the cause in hand , which i respit to your perusall of it . sect. to draw to a con●lusion ; you tell me towards the close of your paper , that by a perusall of the books and papers which you sent unto me , i may peradventure finde more cause to retract the main scope of my whole anti-cavalerisme , then the above mentioned passage thereof . truly sir , if upon the peruseall which you recommend unto me , i shall finde no more cause to retract the main scope of my discourse , then i have yet found to reverse the passage you speak of , i shall finde none at all . howsoever , if you have acquited your self in these writings , like a work man that need not to be ashamed , you could not have recommended their perusall to a man more proselyteable , then i. ballance my reasons and grounds , and i shall demurre ; over poise them , and i am yours . one of my chiefe imployments is , quotidiè de erroribus meis demere : and i shall be really and heartily thankfull unto you , or any man , that will help me in my work . i have not the least expectance that any errour should ever blesse me ▪ least of all those , which i have published to the danger of others . make me to see in the one , what i apprehend in the other , and my anti-cavalerisme shall be no more to me , then your {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . the grounds i build upon in the discourse , as i remember are but few , the number of them , but five : their names those , first , that kings have no power , but what is given unto them , either by god , or men . secondly , that god gives power or authoritie unto no man to doe unrighteously . thirdly , that if men give any such power , it is a meere nullitie . fourthly , that to resist any power , which god hath not given , is not to resist any ordinance of god , nor sinfull . fifthly , that self defence incase of lawlesse opposition , or assault , is a cleare dictate of the law of nature . whether there he any more of this kinde , or no , in that discourse , i doe not at present perfectly remember . doe but either shake these foundations , or discover to me , that i have built besides them , you and i shall agree in two words about the retractation of the main scope of my anti-cavalerisme . i thought to have drawn forth after the same manner , the principles upon which my right and might , stands : but these being many more in number , i shall not tempt your patience with the muster of them . onely i freely make the same offer concernning these , which i did about the other ; either present mee with such other principles and grounds , which will serve these , as aarons rod did the rod of the inchanters , devoure them ; or shew me , where my building stands awry , or off from my foundations ; and the same hand which built it , shall soone pull it down . not to be further troublesome unto you at present , if you please to strike talies , and take satisfaction for my boldnesse from the consideration of your own , i shall take it as a pledge of christian ingenuitie from your hand . howsoever , you may aslure your upon sufficient ground , that , any thing in these papers notwithstanding , i am , sir your very loving friend , john goodvvin . colemanstreet jan. . . postscript . i acknowledge that since the printing of the former part of this answer , i received a printed copie of that letter from you , which towards the beginning hereof i deny to have received . errata page . line . for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , reade {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . p. l. . for shenuously reade strenuously . p. . l. ● . for ground , r. ground● ▪ p. . l. . for the , r. the . p. . l. ● . for methord , r. method . p. . l. . for limitted , r. limited . p. . l. . for bolod , r. blood . l. . after , in r. this . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . * in numb. . * ioh. . . * exo. . . * gen. . . * chro. . , . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . pet. . . * act. . . * tit. . . * tim. . . ad poenitentiam properat , qui citò judicat . a post-script, or appendix to a treatise lately published by authority, intituled, hagio-mastix, or the scourge of the saints displaid in his colours of ignorance and blood. being an explication of the third verse of the thirteenth chapter of the prophecie of zacharie; (the tenour whereof is this: and it shall come to passe, that when any shall yet prophecie, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, thou shalt not live, for thou speakest lies in the name of the lord: and his father and his mother that begat him, shall thrust him through when he prophecieth.) according to the analogie of the sriptures [sic], the scope and exigency of the context, and the sence of the best expositors upon the place. / by john goodwin a servant of god and men, in the gospel of jesus christ. hagiomastix. appendix goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a post-script, or appendix to a treatise lately published by authority, intituled, hagio-mastix, or the scourge of the saints displaid in his colours of ignorance and blood. being an explication of the third verse of the thirteenth chapter of the prophecie of zacharie; (the tenour whereof is this: and it shall come to passe, that when any shall yet prophecie, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, thou shalt not live, for thou speakest lies in the name of the lord: and his father and his mother that begat him, shall thrust him through when he prophecieth.) according to the analogie of the sriptures [sic], the scope and exigency of the context, and the sence of the best expositors upon the place. / by john goodwin a servant of god and men, in the gospel of jesus christ. hagiomastix. appendix goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for h: overton, and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head ally., london, : [ ] the preface is dated: march . . in the title, the words "the tenour whereof .. when he prophecieth." are enclosed in square brackets. the final leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "aprill d ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bible. -- o.t. -- zechariah xiii, -- commentaries. religious tolerance -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a post-script, or appendix to a treatise lately published by authority, intituled, hagio-mastix, or the scourge of the saints displaid in hi goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a post-script , or appendix to a treatise lately published by authority , intituled , hagio-mastix , or , the scourge of the saints displaid in his colours of ignorance and blood . being an explication of the third verse of the thirteenth chapter of the prophecie of zacharie ; [ the tenour whereof is this : and it shall come to passe , that when any shall yet prophecie , then his father and his mother that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live , for thou speakest lies in the name of the lord : and his father and his mother that begat him , shall thrust him through when he prophecieth . ] according to the analogie of the sriptures , the scope and exigency of the context , and the sence of the best expositors upon the place . by john goodwin a servant of god and men , in the gospel of jesus christ . ioh. . . judge not according to the appearance , but judge righteous judgement . quidam christianae ac fraternae charitatis obliti , in tantum existimationem nostram quoquo modo student laedere , ut suam , se evertere nocendi cupiditate , non videant . aug. in resp. ad artic. sibi false impositos . prophetae fuerunt viri eloquentes , crebróque sunt usi tropis in scribendo , quibus multa obtexerunt . aug. de doctr. christ . l. . c. . mira profunditas eloquiorum tuorum ; quorum ecce ante nos superficies blandiens parvulis ; sed mira profunditas , deus meus , mira profunditas . horror est intendere in eam , horror honoris , & tremor amoris . aug. confess . l. . c. . quod est gladius ad vaginam , granum ad aristam , anima ad corpus , hoc est sensus genuinus ad ipsa verba sacrae scripturae . corn . à lapide . in argumento super . prophetas . london , printed for h : overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head ally . a preface to the reader . good reader , i have almost daily occasion , as well to reverence , as remember , this gracious dispensation of god ( which elsewhere i have taken knowledge of in some of my writings ) that whereas his saints and servants commonly lie under the sorrow and shame of many infirmities , and some unworthy doings , yet he so governs and orders the ill will of their adversaries , that they seldom in their defamations or hard speakings against them , hit upon these ; but commonly lay the burden upon the whole shoulder , where the saints are strongest and best able to bear it , charging them with such crimes and matters of disparagement , not onely whereof they are altogether innocent and free , but which are most contrary to their choicest vertues , and to the tenour of such practises , which are their chiefest honour and commendation . joseph as great a pattern of chastity , as abraham was of faith , was yet defamed and accused , as an adulterer , and a violent attempter of the chastitie of others . a moses , who was meek above all the men on earth , b was yet charged to take too much upon him , and to lift up himself , above the congregation of the lord . c the prophet elijah , who was indeed the chariot and horsemen of israel , d i. a speciall means , and noble instrument of the safety of israel , was neverthelesse arrested by ahab , as he ( that is , as the onely man ) that troubled israel . e to passe by ( for the present ) many more instances of like consideration ; the lord christ himself was represented , and accused as an enemy unto caesar , f who yet was caesars best friend , being he , by whom kings reign , and princes rule . g for my self , i know my self to be compassed about with as many infirmities , as the weakest of men , and my great unworthinesse in many things is daily before me ; yet it hath pleased my god , whom i serve in the gospel of his dear son , still to hide my nakednesse from mine enemies , though many in number , and diligent inquirers after it ; and so to dispose of their hatred and ill will against me , that the fiery darts of their accusations have still hit where my brest-plate of righteousnesse is , and hath been most firme , and of best proof . it is too much for me to say of my self , nor will i say it ; but it would be a truth comely enough in the mouths of some others , to say , that i am , if not the best yet none of the worst friends , which the divine authority of the scriptures hath amongst men ; and that i have been as diligent , as faithfull , as laborious an assertor thereof , as any of those , who think themselves more worthy of the crown . all that i shall say of my self in this behalf , is , that if i have done any service for the world , since my entrance into it , or if the souls and consciences of men have any cause at all to blesse me , it is , because i have cloathed them with strength and confidence of the royall parentage and descent of the scriptures , and subdued their fears and jealousies of any subornation ( in that kinde ) under their feet ; or rather that i have attempted with all my heart , and all my soul , to do them . notwithstanding , with what importune clamour , and virulency of spirit , i have been of late traduced , not onely to vulgar cognizance , but to authority it self , as an enemy unto , and opposer of the heavenly originall of the scriptures , by some , who out of zeal to god ( for so they glosse the practise ) neglect their own trades and imployments , to follow satans , in accusing the brethren , h is so well known throughout the city , that any farther information from me , would be an impertinency . but though joseph was accused as an enemy to the chastity of his mistresse , yet the true reason and ground of his accusation ( as the scripture informeth us ) was , not his enmity , but his faithfulnesse , thereunto ; in like manner , though the matter of my accusation from the mouths of men , he opposition to the scriptures ; yet i make little question , but that the reall and true cause hereof , was not my opposing , but my avouching the scriptures , as the oracles , or word of god , by a strong and pregnant eviction from them of a notorious unworthinesse in those practises and proceedings against the saints , wherein these men with their fellows , were , to the reproach , not of christian religion onely , but of humanity it self , engaged . but all things ( saith the apostle ) that are [ to be ] reproved , are made manifest by the light : for whatsoever doth make manifest , is light . i. is by this act of manifestation or discovery , clearly evinced to be light , eph. . . and as joseph's mistresse accused him to his lord , for an adulterous attempt upon her , because he refused to be adulterous with her ; so because i have constantly refused to misfigure the face of the scriptures , and destroy the character of the divine glory which is stamped upon them , by compelling them to serve in the wars of high presbyterie , against both themselves , the saints , and the truth ; therefore have these men accused me before authority , as if i had blasphemed their honour , and contradicted that manifest and pregnant relation , wherein they stand unto god , as their father . that herein i charge them not , but with the royall assent of truth , is evident from hence : there is scarce any divine , or protestant author , having a like occasion to speak of the same subject , but have expressed themselves upon the point wherein i am made an offender , in terms far more obnoxious to exception then mine , a and yet my accusers are all thoughts made for them and as men in whose mouths there are neither complaints , nor reproofs . why ? these authors , either have ordered the scriptures and high presbyterie , and made them to agree ; or else they had no occasion to take notice of any disagreement between them . but because i have so demonstratively proved that the scriptures , and high presbyterie , point , like east and west , one diametrally opposite to the other , ergo , therefore my saying , that it is no foundation of christian religion , to beleeve that the english scriptures are the word of god , is a deniall of the divine authority of the scriptures simply , though another mans saying twice as much , would have amounted to no such sum of indignation . but that i daily fight with beasts at ephesus , after the manner of men , what advantageth it me ; if the scriptures be not the word of god ? or why have i bought so many scripture truths at such great rates as i have done , as with the losse of friends , credit , esteem with men , estate , yea of all hope , that i say not possibility , of bettering my portion and condition in the world , as low as it is , if i beleeve them not to be the word of god ? why did i so lately suffer a sequestration from , or ejection out of my free hold , ( the best means i had in the world , for the support and livelyhood of my self , wife , and seven children ) for none other cause , or crime that ever i could hear of , but for endeavouring to go before others in an example of a reall reformation ( .i. for my conscientious and faithfull observance of the solemn covenant , after by publique order and injunction from authority , i had taken it ) if i believe not the scriptures to be the word of god ? certainly if i did not really and cordially beleeve them to be the word of god , i would beleeve them as prudently , as many others do : i would so beleeve them , as not to be disturbed by them , or any thing in them , in my worldly interests : i would so believe them , as to keep fair quarter with soft raiment , great purses , full tables , and benches of honour , notwithstanding : nor would i sacrifice the least degree of my hope of rising in the world , upon the service of any thing whatsoever contained in them . nay , did i not verily believe them to be the word of god , i would not for their sakes , nor for the vindication of any thing which they say , expose my self , as now i do , to the clamorous , and stingling tongues of an ill imployed , and ( i fear ) a worse spirited generation of informers ( god forgive them , for i hope charitably , that they know not what they do ) i would write no books that should deserve burning by the common hangman , * but such onely which should be welcome to , and judged worthy to be sold , at the signe of the bible it self . for i confesse , that i am neither stoick , nor cynick : i had rather abound , then be in want : i had rather have the good wills , and the good words of my generation , then their bad ; and that the greatnesse of this world should rather smile , then frown , upon me . and for the acquirement and injoyment of my desires in all these i conceive i had as fair and large opportunities , as others of my brethren in the ministery , and had a price in my hand , as sufficient ( i make no question ) for the purchase , as many of those , who have bought , possesse , and injoy : whose felicity or advancement by their purchase , i ( god is my witnesse ) no waies emulate or envy . for i judge it ( in many cases ) best for the peace , and accomodation of the world , that they should enjoy the great things of the world , who least know how to want them , or what to do without them . but that which mainly separated between me , and the injoyment of my desires in this kinde , was nothing else , but my believing the scriptures to be the word of god : this principle within me , was ( i confesse ) too stiffe and stately to bow down at the feet of worldly accomodations , and these on the other hand thought themselves too good , to subject themselves unto , or comport with that my principle : and since they thus mutually resented the genius and temper one of another , they have been strangers , and kept at a distance , and by this time scarce know , remember , or take much care one for the other . it was a very irrationall and incongruous imputation which some cast upon paul , that he should preach circumcision , when as he suffered so deeply as he did , for non-preaching , at least for non-practising of it . and i brethren ( saith he ) if i yet preach circumcision , why do i yet suffer persecution ? then is the offence of the crosse ceased . a and certainly , reasonable and considering men being judges , my accusation of denying the divine authority of the scriptures , is every whit as senselesse and importune , when as i suffer , and have suffered every waies , in my credit , name , friends , estate , ease , yea , and expose my self daily to further sufferings , onely for believing , and acting this my belief of , their authority . my belief in this kinde , hath dealt as hardly by me , as the lord did by balaam ( in balaks interpretation ) i thought ( saith he , to him ) to promote thee to great honour : but so , the lord hath kept thee back from honour : b but that belief i speak of , which hath reigned in me , and over me , hitherto , and hath blessed me with such an abundance of peace and comfort , in sufferings for it , will not ( i hope ) forsake her throne , till either she hath overcome mine enemies , and so delivered me from suffering further ; or else changed the contemptiblenesse of what i am yet capable to suffer further in , into that spirit of glory , which resteth on those that suffer for the name of christ . b for i am resolved ( god assisting ) not to be ashamed of any of christs words , c nor to forbear , upon occasion , the freest utterance and asserting of them , before what generation soever : and hope , that neither name , nor friends , nor estate , nor liberty , nor life it self , which have not betrayed me hitherto , will ever for the future prove any snare of death unto me , or hinder me from finishing my course with joy . d if i shall miscarry or fall , in any of my standings up for the truth , the inconvenience or losse , is already cast up by luthers arithmetique ; malo cum christo ruere , quam cum caesare stare : i had rather fall with christ , then stand with caesar : i have begun to build a tower , and trust i have wherewith to finish it ; i am ingaged in a war against the world , and do not intend to send , or supplicate for conditions of peace ; nothing doubting , but that i have sufficient strength ( the strength of heaven ) to meet any adversary , that cometh against me , in the field . i make no question , but i shall perswade the judgements of some , to accept of that truth , whose cause i plead ; but the strength and glory of my comfort is , that of the apostle : we are unto god a sweet savour of christ , in them that are saved , and in them that perish , cor. . . ezekiel must prophecie , whether the people to whom he is sent will hear , or whether they will forbear , that they might know , there hath been a prophet amongst them , ezek. . . men are then prepared for destruction upon the best terms for the glory of god therein , when his truth hath been effectually made known unto them , they persisting in their former wayes of disobedience unto it . this is that , which the scripture calls , rebellion sam. . . and walking stubbornly against god ( as the former translation reads it ) lev. . . . . and in this respect , they who make known his truth unto me , are a sweet savour unto him , even in those who perish , through disobedience to it . as for him , who ( it seems ) counts it an honour to be an officer in blood unto satan , the scourger of the saints under the name of fools * ( for so indeed they are called in the dialect of the world , the language which this man speaketh ) the god of recompences a will provide a scourge for him , and that of scorpions , in due time , ( unlesse by repentance he becomes one of those fools , whom now he scourgeth ) and will declare from heaven , with an astonishing demonstration , who is the fool , and who is the wise man . and reader , were it not for fear of making my gates too big for my city , i should here , in further vindication of my self against the pretended crime of denying the divine authority of the scriptures , have directed thee to such passages in that discourse it self , which is constrained to bear the crosse of this forged cavillation , wherein i clearly acknowledge and assert the same : as . to pag. . where i suppose the fouls of men , to have been ransomed by the precious blood of iesus christ . so again to page . where i expresse my self thus . and though for my self , i can , and do without scruple , subscribe to the truth of this doctrine , yea and am ready , god assisting , to die for it ; that god is one in three persons , &c. certainly he that asserts , or takes for granted , that the souls of men were ransomed with the precious blood of jesus christ ; and again , that god is one in three persons , professing himself ready to die in attestation hereof , asserts his belief of the divine authority of the scriptures , with as much plainesse and evidence , as is lightly possible for any man in words to do . for who can really and cordially , and with a faith animating unto death , for the obsignation of their truth , believe either of these upon any lighter or looser foundation , then the authority or word of god himself ? the latter place ( i desire all the world to take knowledge of it ) which is the more pregnant of the two , wherein i professe my subscribing without scruple , to this doctrine , that god is one in three persons : and further , that i am ready to die , in attestation of it , god assisting me ; is in the very next page unto , and but a very few lines before , that unchristianly , yea , and sencelesly perverted , and mis-used passage , wherein my informers would fain perswade the world , that they see me under a deniall of the divine authority of the scriptures , with my pen . miserable mend who know not how to refrain from making themselves more miserable , then they are , by making sin of innocency in other men , and innocency of sin in themselves : yea , the truth is , that i am so far from denying the divine originall or authority of the scriptures in the said book , that sect. . beginning at the foot of page . i assert the same as demonstrable , by many grounds and arguments otherwise ; whereas the presbyterians ( more generally , as there i shew ) hold and affirm it undemonstrable upon such terms , by all arguments and reasons whatsoever , excepting onely the immediate illumination or revelation of the spirit of god . but i remember that he that glorified god more then all the world besides , was notwithstanding again and again charged with blasphemy , a and that by those , who thought they knew as well as all the world besides , what blasphemy was , yea , and judged themselves as holy just , and zealous men , as far from that great abomination of unrighteousnesse of condemning the innocent , as were to be found among all the living ; yea , this great , and blessed factour for god , and his glory , and for the salvation of the world , was at last notwithstanding all his faithfulnesse unto both worlds , sentenced even by such men as i spake of , worthy of death , as a blasphemer . b reader , i cannot but comfort my self with these words . the lord give thee a discerning spirit between things that differ , and keep thee from being either ravished with the spirit , or rapt up into the third heavens , of this present world . farewell . from my studie in colemanstreet , march . . thine , and all mens , in the service of the lord jesus christ : john goodwin . zach. . . and it shall come to passe , that when any shall yet prophecie then his father and his mother , that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live : for thou speakest lies in the name of the lord : and his father , and his mother that begat him , shall thrust him through when he prophecieth . because there are some amongst us , who look upon this passage of scripture , as undoubtedly comporting with such a practise , which ( it seems ) too much comports with their desires , i mean , the inflicting of civill punishments by the magistrate , upon spirituall delinquents ( persons uttering , or teaching erroneous doctrines in religion ) and having had no occasion ministred , to argue this , as i had for severall others , in my late treatise , intituled , hagio-mastix , &c. i conceive it may be a good and acceptable service both unto god and man , to make a district and narrow search into the minde of the one in it , for the accomodation , and benefit of the other ; partly in rectifying the judgements and practise of some , partly in preserving others from undue sufferings . we shall steer our inquiry by the compasse , partly of the sence & minde of the holy ghost in other scriptures ; partly of the coherence and scope of the context ; partly , of the sence and import of the words themselves ; partly by the analogy of phrase or manner of expression found elsewhere in scripture : partly also of the apprehensions and judgements , of the best and soundest expositors we have had opportunity to see , and consult about the meaning of the place . so then , that the holy ghost had no intent as all to countenance the interposall of the civill sword , for the suppression or punishment of errour , or heresies under the gospel ( least of all , in these times , or , in the churches of the gentiles ) will clearly appear , if not divisim , yet conjunctim , by these ensuing considerations . . it clearly appears from the two preceding verses ( the first and second of this chapter : and indeed from the whole , both precedent and subsequent chapters ) that what is spoken in this third verse , concerning the high displeasure , which fathers and mothers should conceive against their children , when they should prophecie lies in the name of the lord , respecteth onely the nation , and church of the jews . nor is there the least hint or intimation given in the context , that any thing expressed in the said verse , relates unto the gentiles . for. i. ( v. . ) he mentions onely the house of david , and the inhabitants of jerusalem ( . the jews , of what rank or condition soever , noble , or ignoble ) as those , for , or , unto whom , the fountain for sin , and for uncleannesse , there spoken of , was to be opened . upon the same terms he expresseth himself in the gospel , thus mat. . . i am not sent , but unto the lost sheep of the house of israel : meaning , that he was not sent by his father , to minister in the daies of his flesh , either by preaching the word of the kingdom , or confirming it mith miracles , but onely unto the jews : in which respect the apostle calleth him a minister of the circumcision a meaning the jews . now as our saviour professing , that he was not sent , but to the lost sheep of the house of israel , speaketh , onely and determinately of the jews , not including the gentiles in the expression ; in like manner , when the holy ghost speaking and prophecying of him , and of his sending into the world , under the metaphor of a fountain to be opened to the house of david , and to the inhabitants of jerusalem , &c. cannot reasonably be conceived , in such an expression to minde the gentiles , but the jews onely . especially considering , that this prophecie of the messiah , and the blessing he should bring with him , was not simply directed unto the jews , and unto them onely , by the gracious appointment of god , but it was directed and sent unto them , being now in a dejected and low condition , on purpose for their incouragement and erection , as appears , ezra . . and all expositors agree . now when god is well pleased with the jews , or intends their comfort or incouragement by a message from himself by his prophets , he is not wont to speak of the calling of the gentiles , or of making these equall , or superiour , in holy priviledges , unto them : but when he puts this ingredient into any such addressement of himself unto them , it still argueth his displeasure and discontentment with them , according to what himself expresseth by the mouth of moses ( a little before his death ) they have moved me to jealousie , with that which is not god ; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities : and i will move them to jealousie with those , which are not a people , i will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation . b . these expressions , i will cut off the names of the idols out of the land , and again ; also i will cause the prophets , and the unclean spirit to passe out of the land ( ver. ) clearly shew , that the context speaks precisely and circumscriptively of the church and nation of the jews . it is a true and frequent observation amongst interpreters , that the word , land , indefinitely put , in the scriptures of the old-testament , alwaies in such constructions as this ( viz. where no particular countrey , or people besides , are treated of ) signifies , the land of canaan , the inheritance of the jews . . some of our best and most orthodox expositors , understand , not onely the present context ( i mean the passages near adjoyning both before and behinde , to the scripture in hand , and consequently , this scripture it self ) but the whole chapter , yea , and the whole proceeding and subsequent chapters , with a peculiar reference and limitation to the jews : yea , and further limit and confine the whole content of this chapter , to that tract or space of time , which began with the restauration of this church and state by the macchabees after the devastations , and prophanations of antiochus , and ended with the siege and destruction of the city and temple it self of jerusalem , which they conceive ( and that truly ) to be predicted , and described in the following chapter , a wherewith this prophecie ends . so that according to this calculation of the passage in hand , there is nothing at all herein prophecied concerning the churches of the gentiles , no nor concerning the church or nation of the jews themselves , under the gospel , at least after , or since the final destruction of their city and temple when ( according to the general and constant opinion both of ancient & modern divines ) the mosaicall politie and occonomie of that church and state fully expired , and gave up the ghost . now the practise or course here spoken of , ( viz the appearance and standing up of parents against their children , and that unto death , in the case of false prophecie in case it be to be literally understood ) being a branch of that politie , and enjoyned , deut. . . . &c. ( as all expositors almost i can meet with upon the place in hand , agree ) it is a ground of much probability ( at least ) that this prophecie reacheth not beyond the said terme of the expiration of the mosaicall law . if it be objected and said ; yea , but if this be foretold by god , in the nature of a speciall benefit , or blessing , which the church and nation of the jews should enjoy ( as it seems here to be ) viz. that the zeal of the truth , and purity of religion should be so great and prevalent amongst them , that parents themselves should do justice , and that even unto death , upon their own children , when they proved false prophets , and teachers of lies ; doth it not follow , that it will , and must needs be a proportionable benefit and blessing to all other churches and nations , when their respective magistrates shall proceed with the like zeal against the like delinquents ? to this i answer . . be it granted , that not only civill ( magistrates i mean ) but even naturall parents themselves lawfully may , yea , and of duty ought , in these times of the gospel , to proceed with the like zeal against the like delinquents , yet will it not follow , that they lawfully may , much lesse that of duty they ought , to expresse or act their zeal after the same manner , or with the self same kinde of expression . it was lawfull for the apostles , to be as zealous against the enemies of god and of christ , as it was for eliah ; yet it was not as lawfull for them to expresse their zeal by calling for fire from heaven to consume them , b as it was for him . so it is not onely as lawfull , but necessary also by way of duty , for the ministers of the gospel , to be as zealous for the glory of god , and for the peace and safety of their people , as either phineas , or the same eliah was : but it is not as lawfull for them , either to thrust adulterers or adulteresses thorow with spears or javelins , as phineas did ; nor to slay idolatrous priests with their own hands , as did eliah . in like manner , it may be as lawfull , yea , and a matter of duty lying as much upon parents , whether naturall or civill , now , to proceed with the same measure and strength of zeal , against their respective children , in cases of those sinfull misdemeanours specified in the scripture in hand , as it was heretofore either for the one kind of parent or the other , amongst the jews , to proceed against theirs ; and yet withall they may sin grievously , in case they shall utter their zeal in such outward actings against them , as the other did . the reason of the difference is , because god hath now under the gospel appointed other methods and means for the vindication of his glory , and the peace of his people , against the enemies of both , differing from those prescribed under the law ( as hath been argued , and proved in the preceeding treatise . ) and as the jews , though ( as the apostle testifies of them ) they had a zeal of god , [ that is , either for the glory of god , or for the obtaining of his favour ] a yet this zeal of theirs not being according to knowledge . . not being exercised or acted according to the will and minde of god revealed in the scriptures in that behalf , but according to their own erroneous sense & misapprehensions herein , sinned greatly , even to the losse of the favour of god for ever , in , and by such an execution , or acting of it : in like manner , men may be very zealously affected , either to promote the glory of god , or to procure his love and favour ; and yet by seeking to effect either the one , or the other , by means disallowed by god in the scriptures , they may both highly dishonour him on the one hand , and provoke his displeasure , instead of his favour , on the other , and that temptations in this kinde are very incident to persons of zealous affections and desires for gods glory , appears by the character of those times , wherein , as our saviour informes his disciples , whosoever killeth them , will think that he doth god service . b whosoever killeth them , will thinke , &c. this note of universality , whosoever , imports , that there would not be onely one , or two , or some lesse considerable numbers of men , that would stumble at the stone here spoken of , but that this would be a common or generall practise , countenanced and allowed , if not enacted , by the authority of states and kingdoms . the obnoxiousnesse of zeal to the said temptation , might be further confirmed by that example of the jews , recorded , act. . . who are there said to have stirred up the devout and honourable women , and the chief men of the city , and raised persecution against paul and barnabas , and expelled them out of their coasts ; as also by the example of paul himself , whilest yet he was saul ; who ( as himself confesseth ) was zealous towards god , and yet persecuted this way ( the way of christ ) unto the death , binding and delivering into prisons , both men and women . a yea , and verily thought that he did god service in so doing . * but . even those expositors , who understand the expression of thrusting thorow ( in the scripture in hand ) not literally only , but even to the utmost extent of the letter , viz. for an absolutely slaying by death , ( though the letter it selfe doth not inforce this , as we shall shew presently ) yet do not allow such proceedings as this in parents against their children , upon every false doctrine or errour taught , or published by them b nor do their hearts or learning here serve them to undertake the arbitration , between the severall kindes of false doctrines and errours ; so as to sanctifie such and such for the sword , and to shew mercy unto others . and whosoever will now undertake it , had need have a speciall commission for it under the broad seal of heaven , therefore such parents , who shall thrust their children thorow , or slay ( yea , or punish ) them for any false doctrine or error whatsoever , had need have a better , i mean , a more particular and speciall warrant for their practise , then this scripture : so that , . if the said expression of thrusting thorow , be to be taken literally , viz. either for slaying with death , or punishing otherwise ( with any civill punishment ) the particular delinquency or offence , against which such a proceeding is to take place , must be inquired after , and found out , onely by consultation had with the tenour of the law , deut. . , , &c. and deut. . , . &c. unto which scriptures , expositors generally ( as was formerly noted ) send their readers for a right understanding of the passage in hand . now the false prophet that was in these scriptures sentenced by god unto death , was not every heretick , or erroneous person ( especially as men now count heresie and errour ) but determinately , and onely such a false prophet , who endeavoured to perswade them to the worship of a false god , and that by pretending the inspiration of some deity , for the confirmation of such a doctrine ; a ( as was sufficiently proved in the fore mentioned treatise , sect. . ) so that howsoever , by the joynt consent of interpreters upon the place in hand , thrusting thorow ( in the literall or proper import of the word , whether high , or low , ) was never allowable by god in the old testament ( much lesse is it in the new ) for any other kinde of false prophecying or teaching , but that onely whose express bent and tendencie was , to draw off people from the worship and service of the true god , and to allure them to the worship of some idoll , or false god , yea , and this by asserting some speciall revelation as of divine authority , and credit , to procure credit , and acceptation for such a doctrine . . tarnovius a protestant and learned expositor , observes , that the originall word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , transfodit , seu transfixit , doth not always signifie such a thrusting throw , which is unto death , but sometimes such a wounding , which admits of a ready cure , as well as of a recovery : and cites , jer. . . for this signification : yea , and further affirms , that if men will needs understand the expression of thrusting thorow ( ver. . ) literally and properly , they must of necessity , considering and comparing herewith what follows in the sixt verse , understand it , in such a sence . from whence also he infers , that the punishment of thrusting thorow here spoken of , if taken properly , cannot be meant of any punishment to be inflicted by the civill magistrate , but by the naturall parents only , to whom we know , as he saith ) that god hath given power of correction , and that by stripes and scourgings , against their disobedient children . a the tenour of this sixt verse , is this : and one ball say unto him , what are these wounds in thine hands ? then he shall answer , those with which i was wounded in the house of my friends . but , . the said author delivers this ensuing exposition as his sence upon the place , viz. that friends of neerest relation , even naturall parents themselves , shall so far subject their most dear and tender affections , and ingagements otherwise , to their zeal for the truth and puritie of religion , that when any , even of those that are neerest and dearest unto them , through the allurement of that unclean spirit ( spoken of v. . ) shall prophecy , they shall [ or will ] endeavour to take him off , and deter him from such a practise , by producing and laying before him the sentence of death out of the law of god . exod. . . . threatening him after this manner ; if thou goest on , thou shalt not live [ with god ] but shalt be condemned ( for the phrase , compare ezek. . . ezek. . . eph. . . for the matter , gal. . . . philip . . , . tim. . . tit. . , . ) because thou hast spoke falshood in the name of the lord . with these , and other like words , sharp , and piercing , shall his father and his mother who begat him , as it were , pierce him thorow when he prophecieth . for thus , threatening words , sore and weighty reproofs , and indeed all doctrines , are said to cleave in sunder the hearts of those that hear them , act. . . and again , to goad or prick them by piercing , act. . . and the words of the lord , are said to be whet , deut. . . and are compared to a two-edged sword , psal. . , . isa. . . eph. . . heb. . . apoc. . . & . . and again to goads or nails , eccles. . . namely because they do ( as it were ) strike or pierce a man thorow . to which purpose that of solomon , prov. . . may well be alleadged . there is ( saith he ) that speaketh like the piercings of a sword , &c. where there is the same radix which is here in the text , and the meaning is , that there are some , who with sharp and heart-piercing words provoke those unto anger , to whom they speak ; as again there are wise men , who with soft words , pacific wrath , &c. a this is the best and fullest exposition of the place , that i can anywhere meer with amongst interpreters ; for the confirmation whereof , besides what the author himself abundantly citeth case that cometh to passe , which christ here commandeth us to take heed of , that is , the wheat is pluckt up with the tares ; which is an horrible sin before god , and can never be excused . here then consider , how madly we have gone to work , who would needs compell unto the faith , turks by war , heretiques by fire , jews through fear of death and other injuries , and pull up the tares by our own strength , as if we were a kinde of men by our selves , who had power over the hearts and spirits of men , and as if it were in our hand to bring men unto righteousness and true godliness . we by such a course , pull men quite away from the word , by slaying them , that it cannot work any thing upon them : and so , as much as in us lieth , we make our selves guilty of a double death , of that of the body , which we destroy by a death temporall ; and of the soul , which we thrust down into hell , so slaying it eternally , and then we boast , as if we had performed some speciall service unto god , and promise our selves a reward in heaven for it . well therefore may this place throughly terrifie those inquisitors after heretiques , and those murtherers , if they had not foreheads of iron , who make little or nothing of it to put men to death , for every errour so by them judged or esteemed , yea , though they had heretiques indeed to deal with . but now , themselves being the heretiques , they burn true saints . what is this , but to pluck up the wheat , whilest they pretend the pulling up of the tares , &c. a long before luther , austin expounded the same parable much after the same manner , carrying the scope and importance of it to the very same point : which exposition of austin , musculus in his comon places ( cap. de haeresi ) having at large rehearsed , concludes thus : haec augustinus : quibus contra occisores haereticorum parabolam zizaniorum convenientissimè , meo judicio , exponit . i. thus augustine , in which passage he expounds the parable of the tares , and that ( in my judgement ) most appositely and properly , against those that would have heretiques put to death . the same luther , elsewhere writeth , and argueth thus . that heretiques should be burnt is contrary to the will and minde of the spirit of god . this i prove , first , from the experience of the whole church , which from her first beginnings never burnt an heretique nor ever will burn any : it would be a strange thing , that in so many ages none should be burnt , if the spirit of god had declared himself for it . but [ the papists ] will say : john husse , and jerome of prague were burnt at constance . i answer , i speak of heretiques : as for john husse and the said jerome , they were orthodox men , they being heretiques , apostates , and antichrists disciples , ( as appears by what was formerly said ) who burnt them . in imitation of whose example , other murtherers also in other places , burnt and slew the saints of christ , amongst whom jerome savanorola , with those that followed him , may be numbred . secondly , from the scriptures , isa. . they shall turn their swords into plough-shares , and their spears into pruning books . and cap. . they shall not kill , nor hurt in all my holy mountain . and christ committed no manner of arms or weapons at all to his apostles ; nor did he injoyn any other punishment , then that he , who should refuse to hear the church , should be counted as an heathen , matth. . and the apostle , tit. . teacheth to avoid a man that is an heretique , but doth not command that he should be put to death , either by fire , or sword . and to the corinths he saith : there must be herefies , that those which are approved may be made manifest . but what will your holiness , most holy lord , here say ? luke . when the disciples would have brought down fire from heaven to destroy a city , christ restrained them ; saying , you know not of what spirit ye are the children . the son of man came not to destroy mens lives , but to save them : this is that which i have said , and now say again , christ himself being my master [ in it ] that they , who persecute men with fire , are not children of the good spirit . of what spirit then ? even of the evil spirit , who was a murtherer from the beginning . christ would not compell men by force or fire , to the faith . he gave the sword of the spirit , that the children of his spirit should fight with that . but for this sword of the spirit ( the word of god ) the pope with his popelings have laid it up in bench-holes amongst worms and moths , and are become stout hunters , and nimrods in the earth , who do whatsoever they please , in the name of the old caldean god , ur , or fire ; that so babylon the latter may in every thing resemble babylon the former : this babylon burnt the fore-fathers of christ ; the other , burns his children . the same god of them both , ur , or fire , always burns and rageth . but even these men themselves in their most sacred canons , prohibite armes unto clergy men ; and would have the church to pray effectually for the preservation of the life of a clergy man , when he is delivered to the secular judicatory . but by such discourse as this , they do but make a mock of the death of innocent men . for in the mean time , the pope , the prince of the clergy , with all the kings , make most bloody and cruell wars : yea , what havock and slaughters of men are there not made by his command ? when doth he not call in to him the secular arm , so terrifying the world with both deaths ? and yet the prime clergy man himself doth not bear arms , whilest he prays devoutly for those that are to be slain , and is earnest , that they may be dispatched out of hand , and that they be narrowly searched after , and found out in every corner of the world . o satan , satan , satan , wo unto thee with pope and papists , who so impudently disport your selves with the most sad and serious affairs of the church , and slay the souls of men with their bodies . b this pleaseth no good man in the true church , ( saith augustine ) that any man , though an heretique , should be put to death . a and elsewhere : love the men , and slay the errors be confident of the truth , without being cruel , b in another place , answering a certain epistle of an heretique , he saith thus : though the lord by his servants is wont to overturn the kingdoms of error , yet he commands the men themselves , in as much as they are men , should be rather amended , then destroyed . and soon after : it was our part therefore to wish and make choice of the better means , that so we might have an access & way to your amendments ; not by contention emulation , and persecutions ; but by gentle consolations , by loving exhortations , by soft and calm disputations ; as it is written , the servant of the lord must not strive but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach patient ; in meekness instructing those that are contrary minded , &c. and presently after : let those deal cruelly with you , who know not with what labour truth in found & with what difficulty errors are declined . let those be cruel towards you , who know not how rare and heroick a thing it is to overcome carnal phantasmes or imaginations , with the serenity & clearness of a pious minde . let those handle you with cruelty , who know not how difficult it is so to cure the eye of the inner man , that it may be able to behold the sun that was made for it : not that sun , which you worship in an heavenly body , wch glitters & shines in the fleshly eyes both of men and beasts : but the sun , of whom it is written by the prophet ; the sun of righteousness , is risen upon me , and of whom it is said in the gospel : he was the true light , which lighteth every man that cometh into the world : let those be cruel to you , who know not with what , and how many sighings and groanings , even a little knowledge of god is to be obtained . lastly , let those be cruell to you , who themselves are deceived with no such errour , as they finde you for the present deceived with . c and whereas it is commonly said , that austin afterwards reversed his opinion concerning the unlawfulness of proceeding against erroneous persons by outward violence ( a flie which mr. edw. also catcheth at in his antap. pag. . . ) it is true , he was somewhat over-perswaded by others ( as himself confesseth ) this way : but that which befals many wise men frequently , and in many cases , viz. to exchange , or make bargains to loss , might very possibly befal austin himself once . we know tertullian , a man of as great learning , as austin , miscarried after the same manner , and that once and again , in points of great moment . and though austin retracted his former opinion ( in part ) yet he never refuted , nor any man for him , nor is any man able to refute those grounds and reasons , upon which his former opinion was built ( as they were briefly touched in the last recited testimony ) in comparison of which ( all reverence and terms of honour reserved to so incomparable a man ) those , upon which he changed his opinion , in the judgement of any considering and dis-ingaged man , will be found for weight and substance very inconsiderable . moreover ( saith musculus ) he that is a christian , will attempt the correction or amendment of an heretique , with no other spirit , then the spirit of christ , which is a spirit of love , gentleness , humility , and beneficence . — his heart especially is to be moved and drawn ; which is sooner , and to better purpose done by services of love , and by a spirit of meekness , then by violence , or any clamorous disputation . d and elsewhere : i ( saith he ) altogether , and without all dissembling confess my self to be in the number of those , whom it much displeaseth , that whereas errours should be slain , men are slain [ in stead of them ] a the saying of melancthon is sweet and pious . whereas ( saith he ) the devil being set on fire with the hatred of god , to put reproach and dishonour upon him , hath alwaies , and still doth move light wits , to spread and scatter false opinions up and down , and it is much to be feared that in this utmost period of the old age of the world , there will be greater confusions of opinions then ever ; we ought therefore to strive , or fight , both wayes , viz. by prayer , and doctrine . b to conclude ( for testimonies ) calvin himself , who seems by his practise , to have sharpened first his own pen , and by both pen and practise to have sharpened the pens of all those protestant writers , who since his dayes have handled the subject , we all this while speak of , more roughly : seems notwithstanding , now and then , the truth rejoycing against his judgement , to pull down , what elsewhere he builds up , in this kinde , and to acknowledge a non-necessity , of proceeding against heretiques or erroneous persons in a way of outward violence or compulsion , if other means more proper for their suppression , were effectually advanced . therefore ( saith he ) as by the rising of the sun , the darkness is put to flight , and the true and distinct shape or face of all things appeareth : so when god appeareth , or riseth up in the world by the doctrine of his word , all the impostures whatsoever of satan must of necessity flee far away . c if errors and herefies , which are the first born of satans impostures , must of necessity avant far away , when god ariseth in the world in the doctrine of his word ; certainly if this word be but effectually preached , there will be no necessity of driving them away by fire and sword : except we mean thus to pursue them , after they are departed far away from us , as indeed the papists many times do ; who use to destroy the lives of those , that recant and abjure their errours , ( as they call errour ) as well as theirs , who persist obstinate . so that it is neither agreeable to the scope of the place , nor minde of the scripture elsewhere , nor to the sense of many orthodox interpreters upon the place , nor to the judgement of the chief modern writers of the protestant partie otherwise , to understand the phrase of thrusting through ( in the scripture in hand ) literally , or of thrusting through with sword , spear , or the like , unto death ; especially with relation to the churches of the gentiles under the gospel . and though some of our protestant expositors seem to carry it in such a sense ; yet the great crie of this interpretation , is heard out of the midst of rome ; iesuits and others , the children of that mother , thirsting after the blood of the saints , being with open mouth the great abettors and proclaimers of it . but , . whereas the latine translation reads , transfigent eum , and our english , they shall thrust him through , the septuagint readeth , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i. e. they shall joyntly tread upon him , or kick him with their feet ; which imports only a disgracefull , or disrespectfull carriage towards him . but , . ( and lastly ) if there be yet any place left for a further conjecture upon a difficult and obscure place ; ( for peremptoriness and magistrality , become difficulties no otherwise , then a full career the deepest ways : ) it may i conceive relate ( in the direct , and full import of it ) to those times of refreshing , which shall come from the presence of the lord , and of the restitution of all things , viz. to the jewish church and nation ; whereof peter speaks and prophesies , act. . . . and our saviour himself , mat. . . for i say unto you , yee shall not see me henceforth , till ye say , blessed be he that commeth in the name of the lord : and the apostle paul , rom. . . and so all israel shall be saved : and the prophet ieremie ( before them all ) but this shall be the covenant that i will make with the house of israel : after those days ( saith the lord ) i will put my law in their inward parts , and write it in their hearts , and will be their god , and they shall be my people . and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour , and every man his brother , saying , know the lord : for they shall all know me from the least of them , unto the greatest of them , saith the lord : for i will forgive their iniquity , and i will remember their sin no more , ier. . , . these , with many more passages of like tendencie and import in the scriptures , plainly shew , that god hath yet amongst the sealed treasures of his counsels and decrees , precious thoughts towards his ancient people , the nation of the iews ; purposing in his time to build them up again into a church of far more inward grace and holiness ; into a nation , of far more outward beauty , strength , and glory , then ever was their portion since they first became a church or nation , unto this day , either in the one kinde , or in the other . now then i conceive , that the intent and scope , of the prophet zacharie , in the first part of his . chapter , to the end of ver. . was to encourage and raise the faint spirits of that small remnant of his nation to whom he was sent by god with the message of this prophecie , by representing unto them , how glorious a church and nation god intended to make of them and their posterity in time ; and what a spirit , and rich anointing of zeal and holiness , and knowledge and purity of religion , should be found upon them in that day ; insomuch that no touch or tincture of idolatrie , no mixture of errour or false doctrine , should deface their beauty , or stain the brightness of their glory : yea , and that their zeal towards god , his law and truth should be so exceeding fervent and strong , that it shall command and subdue under it , all carnall , yea or naturall affections , dispositions , and desires , all other ends , purposes and intentions whatsoever . by the way this interpretation doth neither suppose or imply either that there will be any son , or child , that shall then prophecie lies amongst them ; or that parents whether fathers or mothers , should or would slay them , or thrust them through , in case they did ; but such expressions as these are figurative ( as we lately heard from mr. deodate , and our english annotations upon the bible ) taken from what was commanded against false prophets , deut. . that is , they only note or express , such a degree , measure , or intensness of zeal to the truth and puritie of religion , which god in his law commanded to be expressed by naturall parents , against their children , and by others against persons in neerest and dearest relation to them , in the case of seducement to idolatrie . now as the same degree , either of love , or hatred , doth not necessarily import a specificall indentitie or sameness of expression , but a generical only , viz. by way of equipollencie , or equivalencie , yea and this only , when there is occasion or opportunity : in like manner it is no ways necessary , that they who are as zealous for the truth and law of god , as those parents were , who in vindication thereof did lay violent hands upon their own naturall children , should act or express this their zeal , with the self same kinde of expression ( i mean , should slay their children also ) there being several other ways and kinds of expression , by which the greatest zeal for the truth and purity of religion whereof the nature of man is capable , may be proportionably declared and expressed , upon occasion . but for the interpretation of the place in hand , last mentioned and explained , there are these reasons , abundantly sufficient ( as i conceive ) to carry it . first , there is scarce any figure , or propriety of speech more frequent in the scripture , then to express a proper and particular sense by words importing another sense equivalent to it . thus god promiseth victories , and deliverances to his people , by saying , ( psal. . . ) i will bring again from bashan ; i will bring my people again from the depths of the sea ; meaning , that , as he had delivered their fore fathers from og , king of bashan , and given them victory in battell against him ; and had brought them out of the red sea , so delivering them from pharaoh , who pursued them ; so he would for the future deliver them from other their enemies , and give them victory and success against them . a thus he threateneth them with bondage and captivity , by telling them , that they shall return to egypt ( hos. . . ) now will he remember their iniquity ( saith the prophet ) & visit their sins : they shall return to egypt . in this figure , or phrase of speech ( to forbear further instances ) the apostle paul affirmeth , that , if any provide not for his own , especially for those of his own house , he hath denied the faith : b his meaning is not , that by such a neglective and ungracious course , he doth properly , or formally deny , or disclaime christian religion ; but , that he doth that , which is tantamont , or equivalent to such a deniall , in respect of the prejudice which is thereby like to accrue unto religion . secondly , it is a common observation among writers , that the holy ghost takes a delight to make the new testament and the old , as it were inter-commoners in language , and phrase of speech ; i. to express matters proper to the one , by words and phrases , which in propriety and strictness of sence , signifie things appropriate to the other . c thus malachi , prophecying of the worship of god under the new testament , expresseth it thus : my name shall be great among the gentiles , and incense shall be offered unto my name , and a pure offering , mal. . . and after , cap. . . he prophecieth of the ministers of the gospel , under the names of , the sons of levi : and cap. . . of john baptist under the name of elijah the prophet . but as none of these expressions , are in their literall , proper and grammaticall significations appliable to the times of the new testament ; no neither is it necessary , no nor so much as probable in the least degree , that the old testament , or lawphrase of parents thrusting thorough their children for prophecying lies , wherein our prophet expresseth and foresheweth the great zeal for truth and purity of religion which should be found in men , under the gospel , should be understood in the letter , or in the formall sence or signification of the words . thirdly , the context it self , and the series thereof , plainly shew , that the passage and prophesie in hand particularly relateth to these times specified , viz. wherein the receiving again of the jewish nation by god , shall be as life from the dead , d unto the world , and their church and state restored to seven times more then their ancient beautie and glory . for ver. . . & . of the preceding chapter , the prophet clearly describes that great and generall conversion of this people unto to god , partly by the causes or means of it , partly by the consequents or effects of it . and i will poure upon the house of david , and the inhabitants of jerusalem , the spirit of grace and of supplications , and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him , as one mourneth for his onely son , and shall be in bitterness for him , as one that is in bitterness for his first-born . in that day there shall be a great mourning in jerusalem , as the mourning of hadadrimmon in the valley of megiddon . and the land shall mourn , every family apart , the family of the house of david apart , and their wives apart : the family of the house of nathan apart , and their wives apart : the family of the house of levi apart , and their wives apart : the family of shimei apart , and their wives apart . and all the families that remain , ( viz. all besides these ) every family apart , and their wives apart . first , evident it is , that the tenour of the things here spoken , carries the scope and intent of the passage directly upon the nation and people of the jews , and doth not suffer it to be understood of any other . this needs no other proof ; except ( haply ) a second and more serious perusall of the words . secondly , as evident it is , that it relates , not to a remnant , or lesser part , but to the generality , or body of this nation . and the land shall mourn ( saith the prophet ) every family apart , &c. ( and again : and all the families that remain , &c. thirdly , and lastly , the expression , and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , plainly implies , that this nation shall see and behold christ , viz. when upon their repentance ( implied , by the spirit of grace , and supplications poured out upon them ) he shall appear or come unto them , to raise up the tabernacle of david , which had been a long time fallen , and to build them up , both church and state , in excellency of beauty , strength and glory ; according to the express tenour of that grand motive , by which peter inviteth them to repentance , act. . , . . repent ye therefore , and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] . i. not , when , as our translation hath it ) but , that , or to the intent that , times of refreshing may come ( not , shall come , as our english translation again mis-readeth it ) from the [ face , or ] presence of the lord . and that he may [ not , and he shall , as our english yet again mis-translateth , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] send jesus christ , which before was preached unto you , whom the heavens must receive , untill the times of restitution of all things , which god hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began . so that the repentance and conversion of this people unto god , when , or how soon soever it shall take place , shall be immediatly , or soon after , rewarded by him , with the sending of his son jesus christ , their long expected messiah unto them , * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. ( as the word properly imports ) to restore , or , re-constitute all things , [ viz. in their church and state ] as they were before , yet not formally , but eminently , and with abundance of superadded glory . upon this sight , or beholding of him ( viz , as coming or come unto them with this abundance of grace , and love , and mercy , who had for so many ages together so injuriously and despitefully intreated him ) shall ensue and follow , that most solemn , affectionate and unparalled mourning , viz for their strange , inveterate , and long continued unkindness , and hatred towards him , which our prophet describes , in the latter end of the transcribed passage ( which also is elsewhere foreshewed in scripture upon the same occasion ) a now having thus foretold the general conversion of this nation unto god , towards the end of cap. . he goeth on in the beginning of this chapter , and declareth , how happy , holy , and glorious the state and condition of this church shall be , upon , and after this their conversion ; and amongst other spiritual priviledges , wherewith it should be invested , inriched , and adorned ( mentioned , ver. . & . ) he shews that the zeal of this church , and people , for the truth and purity of religion , shall be signall , eminent , so as to reign over all inferiour ends , counsels , inclinations , and desires in men ; yea over all , even the nearest and dearest natural relations themselves , which are the hardest to be commanded , or brought into subjection . fourthly , it no where appeareth , either by the scriptures , or by any history of credit , nor is it in it self a thing any ways probable , or worthy belief , that ever the nation of the jews ( i mean , the main body , or generality of them ) were ever so zealously affected to the truth and purity of religion , since the time when this prophesie was uttered , as the tenour and import hereof seems to bear and require . nay , since the promulgation of the gospel in the world ( which is the time contested for by many , as wherein the said prophesie , was to take place and be fulfilled ) the generality of this nation hath been so far from any zeal for the truth , that they have been as violent and desperate opposers of it , as any other nation , or generation of men in the world . therefore ( doubtless ) the days appointed for the accomplishment of the prophesie in hand , are not yet come . fiftly , severall other of the prophets of god are wont in their writings , upon the like occasion , viz. for the incouragement of the church and people of god in their days being under any affliction or discouragement , yea , and otherwise , to re-minde them of the said jubilean times , which god hath in store amongst his treasures , for them and their posterities , and will bring forth and give into their bosoms in his appointed season . see esa. . & . chapters throughout . and again , isa. . , . and to the end . and yet again , isa. . . to the end . see also jer. . , . and to the end of the chapter . other places of like import , as very obvious , and frequent both in these and other prophets : yea , i conceive , that there is scarce any one of all the prophets , ( if any ) but in some place or other , casts an eye ( at least ) upon those times and days we speak of , though in some of them it be hard to discern where . the ground of my conception in this , is , that of peter formerly touched , where speaking of the times of a restitution of all things [ to the jewish nation , as was said ] he adds which god hath spoken of by the mouth of all his prophets , since the world began . sixthly and lastly , it seems by a brief touch which i finde in grotius commentaries upon the scripture in debate , that the exposition last propounded and hitherto argued for , was indeed the sence of the ancient rabbins , and jews themselves , how weak and inconsiderable soever it seems unto this author : for having delivered his own sence upon the words , as was formerly represented , he closeth thus , haec et alia quaedam stultè rabbini referunt ad tempus post resurrectionem . . these and some other things the rabbins fondly refer and apply to the time after the resurrection . what they may further mean by the resurrection , i am not able to say : but doubtless they include herein , or presuppose that happy and blessed estate of their nation , which peter cals ( as we have heard ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the restitution of all things , and which hath been their earnest and constant expectation for many generations , and is not let fall by them to this day . by that which hath been taken into consideration in this discourse , to discover the minde of god in the scripture first proposed , it fully appears , that there is but a very slender appearance in it of any ground , ( if any at all ) whereon to build the lawfulness of any compulsory proceedings by way of civill penaltie , whether death , or other , against persons deemed erroneous , in these times of the gospel . this trumpet gives no distinct sound at all to prepare any man to that battell . but when men delight in war , the whistling of the wind will serve for a signall , it is the observation of an english divine , that the papists , where ever they meet with the word , fire , in the scriptures , they finde a proof for purgatory , a deceived heart ( saith the prophet esay , concerning the idolater ) hath turned him aside , that he cannot deliver his soul : a when men please themselves , and gratifie their affections with the belief of any conclusion , before they have seriously and impartially debated the truth of it : the shadows of the mountains will seem men unto them , for the guard and support of it : and on the contrary , the strongest men will seem but as the shadows of mountains unto them , for the eviction and dethroning of it . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a gen. . . b num. . . c num. . . d kin. . . e kin. . . f iohn . . g prov. . , . h revel. . . a no translation is simply authenticall , or the undoubted word of god . in the undoubted word of god , there can be no errour . but in translations there may be , and are errours . the bible translated therefore is not the undoubted word of god , &c. dr. featly in his treatise , intituled , the dippers dips , p. . . this treatise was printed with license , and since reprinted . or . times , long since the sitting of this present parliament ; no man , that ever i have heard of , finding himself agrieved in the least , at any of these expressions . * some of my accusers made it their most affectionate request , that my late book might be burnt by the common hangman a gal. . . b num. . . b pet . . c mar. . . d act. . . * a scurrilous pamphlet lately put forth , tam fine re , quam fine nomine , called , mo●o mastix . a ier. . . a ioh. . . mat. . . mat. . . &c. b mat. . , . notes for div a e- a rom ● . . b deut. . . see also mal. . ver. . compared with ver. . &c. a summa hujus capitis est brevis narratio tum praecipuorum dei donerum , tum etiam eventorum , quae in populo judaico . i. ecclesiâ dei contingere debebant ( ac reipsa contigerunt ) post instauratum à maccabaeis populi & ecclesiae statum , usque ad extremam urbis hierusalem obsidionem ac excidionem , quae cap. sequenti continetur . itaque ordinem temporis continet haec prophetia et aptè superiori capiti connectitur . ceterum commemorat , duo quae dam summa dei in ecclesiam seu iudeos , futura beneficia , nimirum peccatorum expiandorum rationem et expurgationem idololatriae a suâ ecclesiâ & templo lambe●tus danaeus , in zac. c. v. . see also hugo grotius upon the place . b luk . . a rom. . . b iob. . . a act. . . * act. . . b non quod tamen omnis falsa doctrina , illiusque doctor 〈◊〉 sit puniendus , &c. dan. in zach. a hoc intellige de pseudoprophetâ , populum volente abducere ad cultura falsorum deorum : nam in tales quemvis iudaeum lex armabat . deut. . . . quae lex expresse addit , in tali crimine , nec filio parcendum . hugo grotius in zach. . . a quid ? quod nec {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} id est , transfodit , semper significat ita transfixit , ut inde mortuus sit : siquidem expresse habetur apud ieremiam cap. . . reliqui essent ex eis homines transfixi , quisque in tentorio suo exurgerent , & comburerent civitatem hanc igne : quomodo etiam experientia testatur multos confossos supervivere , &c. et paulo post ; verum si omnino omnia proprie velis accipere etiam depsis parentibus , in suâ ipsorum personâ , correptiones , verbera , flagellationesque privatas in filiis immorigeris his esse concessas novimus , pro. . . heb . , &c. et si versum cum hoc volumus conferte , omnino cogimur hoc asserere , utrunque vocabulo configendi hic denotari , viz. primum praeire aspera verba : quibus si nihil proficiant parentes , ventum iri ad verbera , aliaq media duriora &c tarno●●us in zach. . . a sic autem futurum est , ut quum prophetaverit quispiam amplius ab illo spiritu impuritatis pellectus , dicaent ei , qui sunt ipsi à natura conjunctissimi , parentes scilicet , qui genuerunt cum ; non tantúm pater ejus , sed & mater ejus , cujus tamen in natos solet esse tenerrimus affectus , atque adeo studium naturale ac {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} suas pietatis studio subiicientes juxta christi monitum , mat. . . sententiam mortis ex lege dei proferant , atque illâ ipsum deterreant , exod. . . . sic comminantes , si ita perrexeris , non es victurus tandem apud deum , sed condemnaberis ( confer ezek . . & . . eph. . . quod ad phrasin , quod ad rem , gal. . , . phil. . , . tim. . . titum . , . ) quia falsitatem locutus es nomine iehovae , & his alilsque verbis durioribus velut transfigent eum pater ejus & mater ejus , qui genuerint eum , dum ita prophetat ipse , quomodo verba comminatoria aut graves reprehensiones aut doctrinae omnes dicuntur findere corda auditorum , act . . stimulare , ac pungendo penetrate , act. . & verba iehovae acui deut. . . unde & ipsa gladio ancipiti , psal. . . . isa . . eph. . . heb. . . apoc. . . & . . aculeis denique & clavis conferuntur , eccles. . . quod nimirum hominem velut transfigant , in quam sententiam huc merito adducimus illud salomonis prov. . . est qui pronunciat similia transfossronibus gladii , at lingua sapientûm medicinae . ubi eadem radix quae hic extat , in textu , & notatur , esse , qui verbis asperis cor ejus cui dicuntur , penetrantibus ad iram provocat , & esse sapientes , qui suis verbis blandis iram sedent . a proximum , doce mur quo modo habere nos debeamus erga illos haereticos ac falsos doctores : non extinguer●e eos & excindere oportet : aperte enim hic christus ait , sinite crescere utraque . solo dei verbo contra cos agendum est ita enim hac in re●evenire solet , ut qui hodie errat , cras possit redire in viam . quis novit quando dei verbum cor cujusquam attracturum sit ? si autem exuratur ; vel alias tollatur , impeditur , ne possit in viam reduci , verboque dei subducitur , ut perire cum necesse sit , qui alias potuisset errore liberari . tum evenit quod hic christus vult caveri , nempe triticum simul cum zizaniis evellitur . id quod horrendum peccatum est coram deo , neque unquam poterit excusari . hinc vero vide , ut male sant hactenus fuerimus , qui tureas bello , haereticos igni , judaeos necis metu & aliis injuriis voluimus ad fidem compellere , & zizania nostris viribus evellere , ac si nos ij essemus , quibus potestas esset in corda & spiritus , & in nostra manu ad justitiam & pietatem hominem revocare : quod si unus deus non faciat , manet perpetuo infectum . nos isto pacto vero homines potius à verbo avellimus , eos perimendo ne possit in eis aliquid operari , & duplicis necis , quantum in nobis est , nos reos constituimus : corporis , quod perdimus morte temporaria : & animae , quam in gehennam detrudimus morte afficientes aeterna , pestea jactamus obsequium nos praest●●sse deo , ac peculiare nobis pollicemur hinc in coelo praemium . iure igitur debebat hic locus inquisitores haereticorum , & homicidas illos , qui ob errorem quem libet , qui ipsis videtur , homines adeo facile mactant , si non esset illis frons ferrea , etiam si quando vere haeteticos , in manibus haberent , plane petterrefacete . nunc autem exurunt veros sanctos , & sunt ipsi haereti i. quod quid aliud est , quam evellere triticum , & pre se ferre evulsionem zizaniorum . luther . postill in dominic quint . post epiphan. b haereticos comburi est contra voluntatem spiritus . primum ab experientia totius ecclesiae probo , quae ab initio sui usque huc nullum combussit haereticum , nec aliquando comburet . ●●itum autem esset , in tot seculis non esse aliquos combustos , si voluntas spiritus hoc voluisset . at dicent ; constantiae johannes huss & hieronymus de praga exusti sunt . respondeo : ego de haereticis loquor , nam iohannem huss & hieronymum , viros catholicos combusserent haeretici ipsi & apostatae , & antichristi discipuli , ut ex superius dictis patet . quorum exemplum & multi alii homicidae imitati in diversis locis sanctos christi exusserunt , & occiderunt , inter quos hieronymus savanorola cum suis numerandus videtur . secundo , ex scriptura esa . conflabunt gladios suos in vomeres , & lanceas suas in falces . ejusdem . non occident , & non nocebunt in universo monte sancto meo . et christus apostolis nihil prorsus armorum commisit , nec aliam poenam imposuit , quam ut haberetur pro ethnico , qui ecclesiam non audiret , matth. . et apostolis tit. . haereticum hominem vitari docet , non occidi jussit armis vel igne . et ad cor. dicit : oportet haereses esse , ut qui probati sunt , manifesti fiant . sed quid hic dicet , domine sanctissime . sanctitas vestra ? luc . ubi discipuli volebant ignem de coelo deducere , & civitatem perdere , compescuit cos christus , dicens : nescitis cujus spiritus filii sitis ? non venit filius hominis animas perdere , sed saluare . hoc est , quod & ego dixi , & dico , christo magistro , cos qui igne persequntur homines , non esse beni spiritus filios : cuius tunc ? mali spiritus , qui erat homicida ab initio . christus non voluit vi & igne cogere homines ad fidem dedit ob id gladium spiritus , ut in hoc pugnarent qui sui spiritus filii sunt . at gladium spiritus , quod est verbum dei , dominus papa , cum suis papastris , subter scamnum inter blattas & tineas posuerunt , & rursum facti sunt robusti venatores , & nimrodi in terra , qui denuo in deo chaldaeorum , qui ur seu ignis fuit , omnia quae volunt , faciunt , ne quid babylon nouissima discrepet a babylone prisca : illa exussit patres christi , ista exurit filios christi , & utriusque idem deus , ur semper urit & saevit . sed ipsi quoque in suis sacerrimis canonibus prohibent clericis arma , & clericum fo●o seculari traditum volunt per ecclesiam efficacibus precibus redimi a morte . verum his verbis ludunt in mortibus innocentûm . nam interim ●apa clericorum princeps , cum omnibus regibus cruentissime belligeratur , imo quae strages non illius imperio fiunt ? quando non invocat brachium seculare , & morte utraque terret mundum ? et tamen interim clericus ipse primus non fert arma , dum efficaciter orat pro occidendis , dum instat , ne mors eorum differatur , ut in omni orbis angulo exquisitissime perquirantur . o satan , ô satan , ô satan , vae tibi cum papa & papistis , qui tam impudenter in rebus tam seriiis ecclesiae luditis , & animae cum corporibus occiditis . luther in assert . omnium articulorum per bullam leonis decimi damnatorum . artic . a nullis tamen bonis in catholica hoc placet , si usque ad mortem in quemquam , licet haereticum , saeviatur . aug. contra crescon. gram. l. . c. . b diligi te homines : interficite errores : fine superhia de veritate praesumi●e , fine sae●itia pro veritate certate . idem contra lit. pe til . l. . c. . c quanquam enim dominus per servos suos regna subverat erroris , ipses tamen homines , in quantum homines sunt , emendandos esse potius , quam perdendos jubet . et mo● nostrum enim fuit eligere et optare meliora , ut ad vestram correctionem aditum haberemus : non in contentione , & aemulatione , & persecutionibus , sed mansuere consolando , benevole hortando , leniter disputando : sicut : criptum est servum autem domini non oportet litigare , sed mitem esse adomnes , docibilem , patientem , in modestia corripi entem diverso santientes . et mox : illi in vos saeviant qui nesciunt cum quo labore verum inveniatin , et quam difficile caveanter errores . illi in vos saeviant , qui nosciunt quam tarum & orduum sit 〈◊〉 phantasmata piae mentis sere 〈…〉 superere . illi in vos saeviant qui nesciunt cum quanta difricultate sanctur oculus 〈◊〉 hominis , ut possit intueri solam suum non ist●● , quem vos col●●s coelesti corpore , ocalis carnels & hominum , et pecorum , fulgentem atque radiantem : sed illum de quo scriptum est per prophetam . ●rtus est mihi iustitiae sol ; et de quo dictum est in evangel●●● : erat lumen verum quod illuminat omnem hominem venientem in hunc mundum . uli in vos saeviant , qui nesciunt quibus suspiriis et gemitibus fiat , ut ex quantulacunque parte intelligi possit deus . i ostremo illi in vos saeviant , qui nullo tali errore decepti sunt , quali vos aeceptos vident . idem contra epistolam fundamenti , non longé ab initio . d deinde , correctionem haeretici molitur christianus , nullo alio quam christi spiritu , qui spiritus dilectionis est , mansuetudinis , humilitatis , ac beneficentiae . — movendum cum primis illius cor est : id quod benevolentiae officiis , ac spiritu mansuetudinis prius & utilius , quàm violentiâ vel verbosâ disputatione perficitur . musc loc. com. cap. de haeresi . a omninò citrà dissimulationem inter eos me esse fatetor , quibus admodum displicet , quod ubi interficiendi sunt errores , interficiuntur homines idem . ib. b cum autem diabolus ardens odio dei , vt cum contumeliá afficiat , semper impulerit , & impellat levia ingenia ad spargendas falsas opiniones , & in hac ultima senecta mundi majores confusiones opinionum fore metuendum sit , utroque modo pugnandum est , videlicet precatione & doctrina . pb. melancth. in ena● . symb. niceni . c sicut ergo folis exortu fugantur tenebrae , & apparet distincta rerum omnium facies : sic etiam ubi deus emergit per sui verbi doctrinam , necesse est procul faccessere omnes satanae imposturas . calv . in zach. . . a sensus est : sicut majores vestros liberavi ab ogo , cisque victorian contra illum dedi : item sicut eos eduxi , é mari rubro , eosque liberavi à persequente pharaone , eisque victoriam contrá illum dedi : ita etiam in posterum vos liberabo ab inimicis vestris , victoriamq : vobis contra illos dabo . piscator in psal. . . b tim. . . c quibus si quis explicationis uberioris gratiâ , id quoque velit subjicere , quod propheta de tempore novi testamenti loquens ad populum sub veteri , accommodet se ad eorum captum loquendi formulis , et tum notis utens quidem , sed longé aliter intelligens , respiciat ad legem ceremonialem , quae extat , deut. . . non improbabiliter hoc fieri posse colligimus . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in zach. . . d rom. . . * it is the opinion of some of the rabbins , that their messiah was indeed born ( according to the scriptures ) before the destruction of the second temple : and withal , that for their sins , he hideth himself for a time in the sea , and other desert places , untill they be worthy of his coming rab. ●osue . ben. levi. in taim . tract. sanedr cap. helec . and the iews have a proverbiall saying amongst them : that the days of hezebias have swallowed up the days of the messias . a revel. . . mat. . a isa. . . the apologist condemned: or, a vindication of the thirty queries (together with their author) concerning the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion. by way of answer to a scurrilous pamphlet, published (as it seems) by some poposalist, under the mock-title of an apologie for mr john goodwin. together with a brief touch upon another pamphlet, intituled, mr j. goodwin's queries questioned. by the author of the said thirty queries. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the apologist condemned: or, a vindication of the thirty queries (together with their author) concerning the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion. by way of answer to a scurrilous pamphlet, published (as it seems) by some poposalist, under the mock-title of an apologie for mr john goodwin. together with a brief touch upon another pamphlet, intituled, mr j. goodwin's queries questioned. by the author of the said thirty queries. goodwin, john, ?- . , [ ] p. printed by j.m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd, and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley., london, : . the author of the said thirty queries = john goodwin. a reply to "an apologie for mr. john goodwin" and "master john goodwins quere's questioned". the final leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "aprill. .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng goodwin, john, ?- . -- thirty queries -- early works to . an apologie for mr. john goodwin -- early works to . master john goodwins queries questioned -- early works to . church and state -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the apologist condemned: or, a vindication of the thirty queries (together with their author) concerning the power of the civil magistrate i goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the apologist condemned : or , a vindication of the thirty queries ( together with their author ) concerning the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion . by way of answer to a scurrilous pamphlet , published ( as it seems ) by some poposalist , under the mock-title of an apologie for mr john goodwin . together with a brief touch upon another pamphlet , intituled , mr j. goodwin's queries questioned . by the author of the said thirty queries . thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor . exod. . . and there arose certain , and bare false witness against him , saying , we heard him say , i will destroy this temple that is made with hands , and within three days i will build another made without hands . but neither so did their witness agree together . mark . , , . quicunque desideraverit primatum in terra , inveniet in coelo confusionem . chrysost. ita perit judicium , ubi res transit in affectum , & nostram volumus qualemcunque praevalere sententiam , quia nostra est . aug. london , printed by j. m. for henry cripps and lodowick lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley . . a vindication of the thirty queries , ( together with the author ) against the mock-apology for mr john goodwin . the gentleman the apologist , being ( as i understand ) a graceling of the greatness of this world , can have ( in my understanding ) no other reasonable ground for his taking sanctuary behind the curtain , but only some conscienciousness that his pamphlet is beneath him , and that it would rather take from , then add to , him , if his name were known . he seems to be of that race of men , whose conscience will allow them to do evil , but their prudence will not allow them to bear the shame belonging to it , if they know how to help it . it is obvious to every eye that looks into the said mock-apology , that the main projecture of it , was only the propounding of this main query and wonder ( as the worthy author terms it , pag. . ) how the same hand could subscribe the ministers proposals for advancement of religion on to the supreme magistrate , and yet propose this question ; whether the magistrate stands bound by way of duty to interpose his power or authority in matters of religion , &c. he seems to promise unto himself the present downfall of the credit and esteem of the querist ; and consequently , of his queries also , upon the sound of his rams horn , the bare proposal of this query . but suppose the hand he speaks of had subscribed the said proposals upon the terms insinuated in this main query and wonder , ( which yet will be found to be an undue insinuation , ) is it such a strange query or wonder , how peter that had denyed his lord and master before a damosel , could yet confess him with so much courage , as he did , before a council afterwards ? or is it such a wonder , how he that doth weakly once , should at any time after do more wisely ? nay ( questionless ) of the two it is the greater wonder , that he , who hath stumbled and fallen to the earth , should not rise and get up , then that he should not always lie upon the ground . but may not the apologist bear the shame of being a false witness against the querist , upon the like account , on which they that witnessed against christ , that he had said , i am able to destroy the temple of god , and to build it in three days , are stigmatized by the holy ghost , for false witnesses a ? for doth he not represent the subscription of the querist to the ministers proposals , as if he subscribed the reasonableness of the said proposals , or the meetness of them to be put in execution ; when as he expresly declared , together with a friend of his , who subscribed at the same time with him , unto mr nye ( who importunately sollicited our said subscriptions ) that he was not satisfied with the contents of the said proposals , neither could be own or subscribe them , as meer to be put in practise . hereupon the said mr nye , affectionately pursuing his motion to us for our subscriptions , expressed himself to this effect , that though we were not satisfied touching the lawfulness or meetness of things contained in the said proposals , to be practised , yet we might lawfully subscribe them , as meet to be delivered unto , and to be taken into consideration , by the committee . we at present apprehending no snare , danger , or inconvenience in it , to subscribe them in such a notion , and with such a declaration of our selves , as this , and being desirous to go as far with our brethren of the ministry , as ever our judgments and consciences would permit us , yielded accordingly , and subscribed . but to mention this by way of apology for mr j. goodwin , had been to prevaricate with the design : and besides , to act at any such rate of fairness , is a strain of ingenuity higher ( i fear ) then the heart of a proposalist is willing to be wound up unto . it is no marvel that he hates the light , this ( as our saviour observeth ) being the property of him that doth evil . in the mean time , i find how hard a thing it is , so much only as to touch pitch , and not be defiled . i shall ( i trust ) from henceforth remember , that that generation of men , with whom i had to do in this business , foenum habet in cornu : longè fugiam . a lock of hey tied to their horn they have : far from them i shall flee my self to save . but suspecting ( it seems ) that the wonder he speaks of , will not procure sufficient credit to his cause against the querist , and his queries together , having ( as he supposeth ) by his lensey-woolsey story done well towards the laying the honor of the one in the dust , he attempteth the disparagement of the other also . amongst the thirty queries ( he saith ) propounded by him , there is not one to be found , but is either , . impertinent , or , . impotent . pag. . he smiteth me with his censorian rod for an imaginary defect in a contradistinction i make between evil doers against the light of nature , and , worshippers of god in a false manner ; but himself in saying , that all my queries , are either impertinent , or impotent , contradistinguisheth twice two against four . for that which is impertinent , must needs be impotent , unless he will say , that that which no ways concerns a cause , may yet have strength enough in it to overthrow it . and again , that which is impotent , must needs be impertinent , or to little purpose , unless he will say that that which hath nothing in it to countenance or support a cause , is yet pertinent to it . yea impotency , and impertinency , are identical , after the manner of things which are mutually exegetical the one of the other . but what may the gentleman mean by his , impertinency ? impertinent imports relation , or rather a want of relation in point of usefulness , and this either to some special and particular term , or else to a general . he seems by charging the queries with impertinency , only to imply that they are irrelative to such a special or particular term , unto which he was afraid they might have proved more pertinent , then he could have wished . and for all his rejoycing in face over their impertinency , in reference to such an end and purpose , as he specifieth , yet i beleeve his heart partaketh not with his face in this joy . for when he saith ( pag. . ) that mr goodwin not only may , but indeed must be so understood ( viz. as not to query , at least in the major part of his queries , the exercise of the magistrates power in matters of religion , save only that which is coercive , and like a spanish inquisition , or english high-commission-court , &c. ) he tacitly grants ( i will not add , and is inwardly troubled ) that in sundry of my queries i am guilty of suggesting pertinent scruples even against the interposure of such a power by the magistrate in matters of religion , which falls much short of that which is compulsive by mulcts , fines , imprisonments , &c. to a conformity unto the publique profession and practise . yea they who shall please to peruse the first , the seventh , the tenth , the the eighteenth , with most of the queries following , will find me guilty of suggesting scruples of that pertinency even against the interposure of such a power by the magistrate , which the apologist claims for him , that he fairly passeth by them , leaves them as he finds them ; and in stead of healing or removing them , only dawbs with a little untempered mortar , telling the magistrate ( pag. . ) that things of a religious nature , are either absolutely such , or mixily ; and telling him again ( without any limitation or caution ) that he may intermeddle , though not in the former , yet in the latter . and how doth he prove this ? only by putting it upon mr goodwin to resolve , whether a christian magistrate were obliged to suffer a heathen under his jurisdiction to sacrifice his child to moloch , &c. a worthy demonstration ! {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . o , let king priam , and king priam's sons make joy together . mr goodwin's sence about the case propounded , is , that a magistrate , whether christian , or pagan , is obliged not to suffer the perpetration of murther , whether by an heathen or christian , under his jurisdiction ; nor to suffer either the one , or the other , to sacrifice their child , not onely not to moloch , but not to god himself . he that from this resolution of the case is able to gather a ground or argument to prove , that a magistrate may use what power he pleaseth , or umpire as he pleaseth , in matters of religion , so they be not purely , but mixtly sch , as the publique circumstance of time , place , revenue , some opinions , &c. may as well ( for ought i understand ) bring up the element of fire from the bottome of the sea . for what face of a consequence is there in this enthymeme : a magistrate may interpose his power , against the commiting of murther in his jurisdiction : therefore he may interpose his power also to punish men in his jurisdiction for what opinions he thinks meet , to constrain men to allow to what ministers he pleaseth what proportion of their estates he pleaseth , to compell them to repair to such places for the publique worship of god , as he pleaseth , &c. p. . . he be-jeareth ( after his manner ) the poor querist , as proposing ( in his last querie ) this considerable question , whether the civil magistrate be not a kind of bat , that is confin'd to the twilight of nature . i confess such a question as this ( though the querist owneth it not for his , but must charge it upon the apologist to answer for the calumnie ) might be more reasonable ( of the two ) proposed concerning such proposalists , who reason at the rate lately specified , and decline the light , then concerning the civil magistrate . only they seem to be confined to a light many degrees inferior to the twilight of nature , i mean to such a light , which our saviour term's , darkness a ; ( speaking , i conceive , of by-ends , undue interests , &c. which take upon them the proper office and work of light , which is to direct and guide men in their way , but perform it after the manner of darkness , leading them into boggs and precipices , and places of danger . ) and besides the apologizing proposalist , hath severall properties of the bat , viz. to fly up and down in the night , or evening , and to hide his self from the light of the day , to frequent houses , not woods or solitudes , as other birds do , to cry , or to complain lightly , or upon small occasion , &c. conataeque loqui , minimam pro corpore vocem emittunt , peraguntque leves stridore querelas . tecáque , non sylvas , celebrant , lucemque perosae nocte volant , seróque tenent a vespere nomen . ( i. ) they try to speak , but voyce they utter none : they pule , and scrike , with a poor-sounding tone : of matters smal with scriking they complain : 'bout houses , not in woods , they still remain : i' th' night they fly , because they hate the light ; the dusky evening doth their name endite . but the gentleman apologist indulging himself above measure in his democritical wit , instead of speaking soberly to the business he had in hand , hopes to afford it better promotion by a mixt discourse of an unchristian composition , the ingredients predominant , being only falshood , and flearing , pag. . but lest the reader be mistaken , he must remember , that the book of nature , according to mr goodwin's edition , comes forth in a just volume : the light of nature , in his astronomy , is a star of the first magnitude . and therefore whilest he allows the magistrate a power to punish offenders against the light and law of nature , he outvies the proposals , if he be true to his own principles . if he that writes these things , be , in so doing , true to his own principles , most certain it is that he is principled by the prince that ruleth in the ayr , and not either by the light , or god , of nature . for what ground he should have , excepting ( haply ) his devotion to the goddess mendacina , to utter such things as these , is not easily imaginable . for what edition of the book of nature hath mr goodwin published , that comes forth in a just volume ? or what hath he ever said , or written , that administreth so much as any tolerable occasion , colour , or pretence , for such a saying ? i no where ascribe to the light of nature so much as the least ability of discovering or discerning any truth , but only in conjunction with the grace or good spirit of god . it may be i do not always mention this conjunction , when i speak of the light of nature ; but i frequently , and upon sundry occasions , declare my sence and meaning in this behalf . if the apologist himself , saying , that the light of nature may discover the truth of his few ( i. e. six ) corollaries , or at least being discovered , must assent unto it , meaneth by the light of nature , any principle , faculty , or ability vested in nature , capable of such actings , as here he ascribeth unto it , without the gracious and merciful assistance or concurrence of the spirit of god with it , he sets forth the book of nature in a far larger and fairer edition , then ever it was , or is like to be , set forth by me . and whereas he saith , that whilest i allow the magistrate a power to punish offenders against the light and law of nature , i outvy the proposals , &c. if by , offenders , he means , all offenders , his suggestion is most untrue : i no where allow him a power to punish all offenders against the light of nature , but offenders only against the clear light of nature , ( see query . and . ) if by offenders , he means , some offenders only , i cannot outvy the proposals in such an allowance , unless it be supposed , that these allow no power to the magistrate to punish any offender whatsoever against the law of nature ; which far be it from my good friend , my apologist , either to say , or think . i made a while some treasure of those words of his ( pag. . ) with such a power ( i. e. a coercive power in matters of faith , and worship , a power which would compel unto the publique profession and practise ) the ministers hold as little correspondency , as mr goodwins queries . but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , this my supposed treasure proves coals . for if the magistrate be allowed a coercive power for raising a revenue and maintenance for what , and how many , ministers he pleaseth , and withall , what proportion of revenue and maintenance he pleaseth ( which is the golden apple for which my apologist chiefly runneth , and unto which all the rest of his pleadings for the magistrate , are debtors ) this , being rightly construed , makes the perfect sence of a coercive power , even in matters of faith and wirship , and which compelleth unto the publique practise , &c. for , . is it not a branch of the faith of many in the nation , and these not of the worst , nor worst-conscienced men , that they shall sin against god in paying tythes , yea in allowing any maintenance at all to such ministers , whom they judg antichristian in their office , and call ? . what doth it ease or advantage me , that the magistrate should force me to allow , or part with , such or such a proportion of my estate , for the maintenance of such or such a minister , more then it would , in case he should compel me to pay a fine of like value for holding such or such an opinion , or for joyning in such or such a way of worshipping god ? i am equally damnified in my estate in the one way and the other : nor is it any ways material unto me , upon which account i part with my substance . or if there be any difference in the case , certainly it would be more passable with me , to suffer for an opinion , or practise , which i conscientiously love and profess , then for the sake of such a person , be he minister , or other , to whom i am a stranger , and no ways obliged , yea who ( haply ) is an offence and burthen unto me . therefore a coercive power in the magistrate , about publique circumstances , as of time , place , revenue , and some opinions , &c. differs only in face , not in heart , from a coercive power in faith and worship . whereas he informs me ( in his fifth corollary , p. . ) that the wise and faithful christian magistrate may be assured of some truths in christian religion , and their opposite errors ; . i marvel how ( the principles of the apologist salved ) the light of nature should discover any such truth as this , that there is such a thing in rerum naturâ . as a christian magistrate ; or being discovered , should assent unto it ; which notwithstanding he affirms concerning this , and all the rest of his corollaries . for if the light of nature be in no capacity to discover that there is a christ , nor so much as to assent to any discovery that is made of him ( which is one main article , it seems , of the apologist's faith ) how should it discover , or come to own or acknowledg , a christian magistrate ? can a man beleeve or think , that the stars derive their light from the sun , and yet be in no capacity of beleeving that there is a son , or so much as knowing whether there be a sun , or no ? . what if the wise and faithful christian magistrate may be assured of some truths in christian religion ; can any christian , or christian state ( so called ) be assured , that all their magistrates , are , or always will be , wise and faithful ? if not , then is it not safe , or reasonable , to entrust the magistrate , as a magistrate , or simply as bearing the additional external denomination of christian , with such a power , of the regular administration whereof only such magistrates are capable , who are not only christian , but wise and faithful also . . suppose not only the wise and faithful christian magistrate , but every christian magistrate ( so called ) without exception , may be assured of some truths in christian religion , what follows ? doth it either ( in the first place ) follow , that therefore he may raise , or force from the people , what maintenance or revenue he pleaseth for the supporting , or inriching , what ministers he pleaseth ? or , . doth it follow , that therefore he may punish men with mulcts , fines , imprisonments , &c. for such opinions as he pleaseth , or which he deemeth erroneous ? yea or such , concerning which he thinks himself most assured that they are erroneous ? or was not paul before his conversion to christ assured of many truths in that religion , which was delivered by god himself unto the jews , ( and consequently , of their opposite errors ) and yet thought verily that jesus christ was not the promised messiah , ( which yet was a main point to be known , and beleeved , according unto the principles of that religion , ) yea and that he ought to do many things against him , and those that beleeved on him , and practised accordingly ? or , . ( and lastly ) doth it from the specified premisses , follow , that therefore the christian magistrate may appoint what persons he pleaseth to elect and reprobate whom they shall please , either to , or from , the work of the ministry , and preaching of the gospel ? if all these consequents , or deductions , be palpably irrelative to the said premisses and corallary , why doth the apologist present the magistrate with such ashes as these to feed upon ? but how cometh it to pass that we hear so little ( or rather nothing at all ) all this while , for the justification of the ministers proposals touching that investiture of some clergy-men with authority and power to put the ministry and preaching of the gospel into what hands they please ; considering that this is one of those irregularities , at which the queries principally strike ? the master of the feast ( it seems ) judged what he had to bring forth upon this account , to be his best wine , and so kept it to the last . therefore pag. . . &c. we have this cause mooted ( though little promoted ) thus : besides , who can deny it to be the priviledg and duty of a master of a family , to admit such only to teach in his house as his conscience shall be satisfied in , and warrant him to receive ? or to come yet a little nearer [ even as nye as you will ] will the churches distinguished by the name of independents , and anabaptists ( suppose mr goodwin's church ) admit of any person , either wholly unknown , or known to be either grosly ignorant , or scandalous ( suppose a known mahumetan , or one of their own judgment , and without scandal , but wholly unknown ) to teach in their congregations without their approbation , and assent first obtained ? if not ( as it is presumed they will not ) let no man scruple to allow that thing to be the right of the magistrate as a publique parent , in the disposal of publique places and revenues to persons to be approved by himself , or such as he shall think meet to be trusted therein , which is claimed as a right by every private parent and congregation . thus far our apologist : but quite out of his way . for this discourse is built upon sundry loose and groundless suppositions ; as , . that the respective congregations of men under the magistrates jurisdiction , have no more right , are in no more , no better capacity , to chuse their own teachers , then children or servants in a family , are to chuse theirs . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . . that the respective congregations within the magistrates jurisdiction are no more bound in conscience to afford maintenance unto him that teacheth them ( i mean , faithfully , and with their own consent ) then children or servants in a family are bound to maintain him , who by the master of the family is appointed to instruct or teach them . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . . that the said respective congregations may have ministers or teachers imposed upon them by the magistrate , upon the same account of reason and equity , on which they may chuse them themselves , or on which children may have teachers provided for them by their parents . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . . that the magistrates providing maintenance for ministers of flocks and congregations , doth not make voyd that commandment of god , ( in our saviours sence to the like expression and charge , mat. . . ) by which these congregations stand charged to make provision for them themselves . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . . that there is any such thing , or things , as those here termed publique places and revenues , wherein the magistrate hath the like interest , or right of property , with that , which every master of a family , and so every respective member of a congregation , hath in that estate , wherewith the providence of god hath blessed him , and the just laws of the land adjudg his . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . for tythes are not a publique revenue , at least not in such a sence , which gives the magistrate a like , or the same , right in the disposal of them , which every private man hath in the disposal of his estate . a private man may remove his estate from , and to what place he pleaseth , may bestow it , or what part of it he pleaseth , upon persons of what calling he pleaseth , yea or may keep it to himself : but i presume it to be the sence of the apologist himself , that a magistrate hath no such right to dispose of the publike revenue ( as he termeth it , ) as , viz. to dispose the tythes growing in one parish , to the minister or teacher of another , much less to a private man who is no teacher at all , least of all , to himself . . ( and lastly ) that the publique revenue of the ministry ( by which i suppose the apologist , either only , or chiefly , meaneth , tythes ) is such a maintenance or revenue , which by the law of god may be forced or extorted from the people by the magistrate , and that upon such terms , that when he hath so extorted it , he hath as absolute a right in the disposal of it , as the persons from whom he extorteth it , have in the disposal of the remainder of their estates . this is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . no law of god can be produced , by which the lawfulness of these things can be evinced , or maintained . so that our apologist in all this quarter of his discourse extrà oleas vagatur , and begs his bread in desolate places . whereas he adds ( pag. . ) that in my last query i have appealed to the law of nature , as to my caesar ; let him but read this query the second time , and then i shall appeal to his conscience , whether there be any truth in such a saying , or no . and when he desires that this may be remembered , that so far power is granted by me to the magistrate in religion , as the law of nature doth dictate , he desires a remembrance of that which ( i beleeve ) was never known ; at least if his meaning in the clause be ( for the words are ambiguous , and hardly intelligible ) that i grant a power to the magistrate in all such matters of religion , which by the light or law of nature may be proved to be unlawful , or unseemly to be done . i have already disowned any such grant as this ; and elswhere given an accompt at large of my sence in this behalf . the brief hereof is this : by the light or law of nature , covetousness , penuriousness in giving upon occasion , timidity or fearfulness , diffidence or distrustfulness in the divine providence ; and generally , whatsoever comes short of that worth and excellencie , which by the light of nature may be discerned such ( i mean matter of worth and excellencie ) in men , may be the same light be discovered to be unlawful , or uncomely . yet it is far from me to think , that therefore the magistrate hath power to punish men for such infirmities or defects as these . laws , especially such as are punitive , are not wont to be enacted against persons who do not attain that pitch of worth and excellencie , which is desireable in all men , and which if accordingly found in all , would highly conduce to the honour and prosperietie of a common-wealth ; but against such persons onely , who either do such things which are notoriously destructive to the peace and well being thereof , and from which the generality of men , do , and easily may , abstain ; or else who refuse or neglect the doing of such things , which in certain cases are necessary to be done , and may easily , and without much prejudice or danger , be done , for the preservation thereof . presently after the gentleman finds himself aggrieved at the contradistinction ( as he called it ) in my last query , as being unsound , because here i distinguish the worshipping of god in a false manner , from evil doing against the light of nature . i suppose his offence taken here ( though he represents my contradistinction but by halfs , and to the obscuring of my meaning in these words , the worshipping of god in a false manner ) is not with the good leave of his own principles otherwise . these ( i presume ) form his judgment on this wise ; viz. that the light of nature is not sufficient to discover the worshipping of god in a false manner , at least , not every worshipping of him in such a manner . for then , wherein should the light of the scriptures themselves , exceed the light of nature , in that important affair of christian religion ? therefore certainly there is a real distinction , and this broad enough , between worshipping god in a false manner , and , doing evil against the light of nature . and if he would have pleased only to peruse those few pages in another treatise of mine , which ( for brevity sake ) i refer unto , in the end of this query , he might ( i suppose ) have been better satisfied touching the apostles meaning ( rom. . . ) by , him that doth evil ; and that by this expression , he could not mean , or intend , any such spiritual delinquent as i describe by some particular instances in the said query . he yet addeth : that the law of nature teacheth the magistrate to make laws against false worship , and idolatry . i beleeve my apologist speaketh this without book . for what laws against false worship and idolatry , can he produce , or instance , the making whereof was taught by the law of nature ? all laws of this kind made by christian states and magistrates , he hath no reason to judg were taught by the light of nature , but rather by the scriptures , ( whether rightly , or amiss , as to this point , understood , i now dispute not . ) if there were any such laws made by pagan states or magistrates ( i mean , laws made against some particular kinds of false worship and idolatry ) the spirit and intent of these laws was rather for the countenance and support of one kind of idolatry or false worship ( viz. that which was more generally practised , and perhaps commanded , in this state ) then for the punishing , or suppressing , of those prohibited , and made punishable , by such laws ; as lerinensis reports of nestorius the heretique , that to make way for the credit and propagation of his own , he fiercely opposed all other heresies a . in which case , supposing the laws we speak of ( made against particular idolatries ) were taught by the law of nature ( which yet is evident enough in the case in hand , that they were not ) they cannot be looked upon as laws made against , but rather for , idolatry and false worship . . if the law of nature teacheth the magistrate to make laws against false worship and idolatry , i would gladly know of my apologist whether it teacheth him to do it against all , and all manner of false worships , and idolatries whatsoever ; or whether against some particulars only in this kind . if against all in general , then are the teachings of the law of nature in this great affair of christian religion , as compleat and absolute , as the teachings of the scriptures , yea and of the spirit of god himself , which ( i know ) is none of my apologists thoughts . if against some particulars only , let my apologist , either by the light of the scriptures , or by any other light that shineth clearly , particularize them , and separate them from their fellows , against which the said law of nature teacheth no making of laws , and his reward shall be this : erit mihi magnus apollo . as great apollo he shall be to me . if he shall not do this , and that secundum sub & suprà , i. e. as well in all particulars , against which the law of nature teacheth him to make laws , as in all those also , against which this law of nature teacheth him no such thing , but rather prohibiteth him the doing of it , he doth but entangle and ensnare the magistrate , in telling him , that the law of nature teacheth him to make laws against false worship and idolatry . these premisses of my apologist , p. . warily understood , are good : ignorance of the true god is the greatest plague [ i presume his sence is , causalis , not formalis ] of all commonwealths : and again ; he pulls down the foundation of all humane society [ i suppose he speaks of the best , and most worthy foundation ] who takes away religion , or abolisheth it out of the minds of men . but the conclusion which he infers from hence is extreamly inconsequent : whence it is that all impiety is to be punished with the greatest and most grievous punishments . how doth the man wring the nose of his premisses to force the blood of this conclusion from it ? certainly this grape , that all impiety [ i. e. all , and all manner , and all degrees , of impiety ] is to be punished with the greatest and most grievous punishments , is so harsh and sowre , that it never grew upon any vine of gods planting . nor hath the said inference any tolerable connexion with his premisses . for if the ignorance of god be the greatest plague in all commonwealths , then ought the magistrate to use all wisdom and diligence , and good conscience , to introduce and plant the knowledg of the true god in his commonwealth . but to punish all impiety with the greatest and most grievous punishments , is so far from being a prudential , or likely method , or means , to produce this effect , that of the two , it is more proper and likely to abolish all religion , and true knowledg of god , out of the minds of men . and where a nation is generally prophane , or atheistically disposed , as all those are , who deny god in their works ( which is more then to be feared , is , not morbus epidemicus , but oecumenicus also , the temper of the generality of all , or the greatest part of , the nations under the whole heavens ) in case my apologist's conclusion should take place , and all impiety be punished with the greatest and most grievous punishments , the inhabitants of such a land , though before as the stars of heaven for multitude , would soon be left few in number , that a child may write them . so that the conclusion we now speak of , may very properly be called , the abomination of desolation . whereas ( in process of discourse , viz. p. . ) he saith , he disturbs religion , who speaks , or writes , impiously of the nature of god , therefore he is to be punished , and truly with death , hath he not spoken this against himself , and his own life , ( yea and against the lives of all his beloved fellow-proposalists , ) if the severity and strictness of his own law should be put in execution upon him ? for doth not he that representeth god , whether by words , or writing , either as unmerciful , or as unjust , as tyrannical , as a dissembler , as walking contrary to his oath , as imprudent , as mutable , &c. speak , or write , impiously of the nature of god ? and hath not the apologist himself , if not by writing ( which whether he hath done , or no , certain i am that many of his judgment touching the nature of god , have ) yet by words , represented him under the reproach and deep dishonor , of some , or all , of these abominations ? dies indicabit : the day will declare it . i know the men of this demerit and guilt , will resent the charge with as much indignation , as the jews did that of our saviour against them , wherein he charged them with going about to kill him : thou hast a devil ( say they ) who goeth about to kill thee b ? as if they had been the most innocent persons under heaven in respect of any such vile and bloody intentions , and he a person of a diabolical spirit to lay any such thing to their charge . yet we know they were never the more innocent ( but the more guilty rather ) for their peremptory and high rejection of their charge : nor he at all guilty , or blame-worthy , for charging them , notwithstanding their deep offence and exulceration of spirit thereat . most certain it is , that all the water in the sea will not wash the heads ( whatever it may the hearts ) of the men i now speak of , from the guilt and crime of writing , and speaking impiously of the nature of god . they may , proteus-like , turn themselves , their tongues and pens , into twenty several shapes , and ten , of shifts , evasions , pretences , provisions ( and what not ? ) but all their washings will not make the blackamore white : all their wrestings and wringings it this way , and that , notwithstanding , — haeret lateri laetalis arundo . the deadly arrow still sticks fast in their sides . concerning the testimonies both of gentiles and jews ( for it seems he layeth his hands across upon the heads of his two compurgators , placing the gentiles at his right hand , and the jews at his left ) wherewith he concludes his worthy apology ; first , he giveth instance in the first founding of rome ( bonis avibus , for good success sake ) telling us , that romulus and numa pompilius , the first kings , layd the foundations of their law-making in piety and justice ; and that of romulus it is particularly said , that before all things he began with the divine worship , &c. i marvel to what account these instances turn for his purpose ? do they not rather prove , that kings and magistrates , and rulers of the earth , have ( more generally ) an itching humor , and love to be tampering in matters of religion and divine worship , and to have religions and worships of their own calculation and contrivance , how blind or insufficient soever they be for the managing or regulating such an affair , then that they have any regular interest or right of power to intermeddle therein ? or doth the apologist intend to commend the examples of romulus and numa pompilius in setting up what religion , and what divine worship they thought best , amongst their people , unto the christian magistrate for his imitation , or encouragement ? certainly that religion , and kind of worship , which these kings set up in their dominions , was not taught them by the law of nature , unless it be supposed that the one was the true religion , and the other , the true worship . for the law of nature teacheth no man any false religion , or false worship ; much less doth it teach any man to compel others to submit either to the one , or the other . therefore the gentleman is no debtor unto the gentiles for any contribution from them towards his cause . for what he cites from mr selden's book de jure naturae , &c. about the opinion of the jews concerning the light of nature , condemning idolatry , making laws against it , &c. not having the book by me ( nor leasure at present to enquire after it ) i cannot examine the truth of his citations . but whereas he attempts to overawe me with mr selden's learning and judgment , saying , that perchance mr goodwin will think fit to comply with them , rather then to contest ; i freely and clearly say , that i am most ready to comply with the learning and judgment of a man by many degrees inferior to mr selden in the honour which belongeth unto learning , who shall teach me that , which i am able to comprehend , or to conceive at least as probable : but otherwise , angels from heaven , and scarabees , or beetles from the dunghill , are teachers alike unto me : unless the light of reason sheweth me a difference between them , i have no more faith for the teachings of the one , then of the other . were mr selden , socrates , and my apologist , plato , i must commend them ; but not forsake my ancient and fast friend , truth , for their sakes . but touching the jews ( in a word ) . by the course and current of the scriptures it appears , that they were no great students in the law of nature ; neither had they the like occasion , or necessity , which other nations had , to engage themselves much in this study . for they , from their great progenitor and founder of their nation , abraham , were discipled and trained up to a religious and holy conversation , by miracles , signs , and wonders , by extraordinary appearances of god , by literal and express revelations and discoveries from heaven of the mind and will of god concerning them : behold ( saith moses to this people ) i have taught you statutes and judgments , even as the lord my god commanded me , that ye should do so in the land , whither ye go to possess it . keep therefore and do them : for this is your wisdom and understanding in the sight of the nations , which shall hear all these statutes , and say , surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people . for what nation is there so great , who hath god so nigh unto them c ? &c. therefore this nation , having god so nigh unto them ( as it follows ) to instruct and teach them all things , that were needful for them , either to know , or practise , had no occasion to pore much on the book of nature , nor to seek that by labour and travel , which was brought unto them in such abundance by the immediate hand of god himself . whilest they were dayly fed with manna from heaven , ploughing and sowing had been but lost labour . the case was otherwise with the rest of the nations on the earth . . ( and with more particularity to what the apologist alledgeth concerning the jews their making laws against idolatry , and false worship ) what occasion , or necessity , can it be imagined they should have to interpose their laws or constitutions ( laws i mean of their own framing and enditing by the light of nature ) against , or about , idolatry and false worship , when as they had so many particular , full , and express laws touching matters of this nature , delivered unto them by god himself ? nay , . they had not only no occasion , or necessity upon them to trouble themselves with making laws against idolatry and false worship , being so plentifully in this kind provided for by god himself ; but they were restrained by an express law given unto them in that behalf by god , from setting their threshold by his , i mean , from super-adding any laws of their own unto those which he had delivered unto them . ye shall not add unto the word which i command you , neither shall ye diminish ought from it , that you may keep the commandments of the lord your god d . and again : what thing soever i command you , observe to do it : thou shalt not add thereto , nor diminish from it e . doubtless though my apologist judgeth the laws against idolatry and false worship delivered by god unto the jews , to be defective and insufficient , and such , whose defects were supplyed by additional laws made by the jews themselves upon consultation had with the light and law of nature ; yet god himself , both his god , and my god , judgeth otherwise of them ; otherwise he would not have so expresly and severely prohibited a super-addition of other laws unto them . therefore , . in case all that be true which the apologist cites from mr selden and his rabbies , touching the jews making laws against idolatry and false worship , by the light of nature ; yet their practise herein being evidently unwarrantable , and condemned by god himself , he doth rather prevaricate with his cause , then any ways promote it , by insisting on it , or so much as mentioning it . . ( and lastly ) concerning the laws delivered unto the jews against idolatry and false worship , by god himself , i have heretofore demonstratively proved that they are , or were , so appropriate to this nation , that they were not intended by god as obligatory upon the gentiles , the tenor and import of them being proportionable and fitted unto such a people , or nation only , who had such extraordinary , miraculous , and supernatural appearances of the true god , ever and anon vouchsafed unto them , as the jews had . see and consider to this purpose , deut. . , , , &c. and if these , or any the like , laws should have been put in vigorous execution in the gentile part of the world , that universal over-spreading of idolatry considered , which covered ( in a manner ) the face of the whole earth , they would have drawn more blood then the world could have spared without fainting , and sinking right down . yea if such laws as he speaks of , had been only executed among the jews themselves , who are known to have been formerly as much addicted to strange ( i.e. false ) gods , and false worships , as other nations , of their multitudes like unto the sand of the sea , they would have left them a small remnant only . the discourse in which i make the proof mentioned , together with the pages where the said proof is managed , i direct the reader unto in the close of my fifth query . and thus i have dispatched with my apologist ; only ( for a close ) desiring the reader to take knowledg , that he hath taken little or no knowledg in his apology of those scruples suggested in the queries about the competency or meetness of such persons , whom the magistrate , according to the advice of the proposals , must set over the great business of repelling from , and authorizing unto , the preaching of the gospel . it is like herein he hath followed the wholesom advice of the poet : — et quae desperes tractata nitescere posse , relinquas : i. e. what thou despair'st to manage plausibly , ( take my advice ) pass by it silently . an answer to the pamphlet , entituled , mr j. goodwin's queries questioned . concerning the author of the pamphlet , stiled , mr john goodwin's queries questioned , together with this his discourse , i shall not need to say much , since he hath befriended me with the gentle opposition of one query only , to my thirty ; and this so well conditioned , that it may be easily resolved , without the least detriment , or damage , to the cause pleaded in my queries . for is not his one query , this ; whether the fourth commandment doth not sufficiently justifie and enjoyn the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion ? i must confess that this commandment doth ( in one sence ) sufficiently justifie and enjoyn the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion ; but in this sence , the first , and the second , or any other of the nine , doth both justifie and enjoyn the same , altogether as sufficiently as this . for that which is neither justifiable , nor meet to be enjoyned , may be said to be sufficiently justified and enjoyned , when there is nothing at all said , or done , either for the one , or the other . an innocent person is sufficiently punished , when he is not punished at all : and the gentleman the author of the query in hand ; is sufficiently commended for the same , when he is not commended at all . i presume the treasure of the duty , or power , of the civil magistrate , as such , was never judged by any sober man to be hid in the field of the fourth commandment , nor in any part of the first table , nor did ever any labourer in gods vineyard dig here to find it . it is the sence of all judicious men , as far as my reading extendeth , that the first of the two tables doth not prescribe , or intermeddle with , the duties of one man to another , nor yet the duties appertaining either to any natural , or politique office , or relation ; but only enjoyns such duties , wherein the worship of god consisteth , and which equally relate to all persons whatsoever . of this mind is calvin f , peter martyr g , musculus h , rivet i , and many others . besides , the tenor of the words in this commandment running after the same manner , and carried on by the same pronoun , or term of address , thou , thou , as well in the subsequent part of the command , as in the two first clauses , it is extreamly incongruous to say , or think ( as my anti-querist doth ) that in the two first clauses the personal observation of the command , is commanded to all in general , and to men , as men , and that in the rest , the observation of it should be commanded unto parents , as such , and unto magistrates , as such . for , according to this notion , the first and second , thou , must signifie , thou man , and again , thou man : the third thou , thou parent , and thou master too : the fourth and last thou , thou magistrate . if my anti-querist can shew any other period , or sentence throughout all the scripture , of like interpretation , with this , and wherein the same pronoun and term of address , must import and signifie such variety of capacities , relations , and formal considerations , it is probable i shall consider further of his notion about the fourth commandment , then yet i think it worth the while to do ; although a parallel in this case would be no sufficient demonstration of the truth or soundness of the conceit . . if the master of the family ( whether father , or master ) or magistrate , be impowered and enjoyned by this commandment , the former , to compel , and by punishment force , his children , or servants , to the outward worship of god ; the latter , to do the like unto strangers , by mulcts , fines , imprisonments , &c. then are they equally impowered , and enjoyned , to exercise the same compulsive authority upon their cattel also ( their ox , ass , and horse ) and commanded to force these also unto the outward means of gods worship . for the tenor of the commission , or injunction ( so fancied by the anti-querist ) imposed by this commandment upon magistrates , and masters of families , respecteth as well , and as much , the one , as the other . in it thou shalt not do any work : thou , nor thy son , nor thy daughter , thy man-servant , nor thy maid-servant , nor thy cattel , nor the stranger within thy gates , &c. here is not the least difference made , nor intimated , between the power given to the master , or magistrate , over their children , servants , strangers , &c. and that given them over their cattel . . if there were any injunction intended by god in this commandment to be layd upon the magistrate , to compel those under his jurisdiction , unto the outward or publique means of gods worship , doubtless such an injunction should rather respect , and be extended unto , the generality of his own people , and native subjects , then strangers only : whereas here is not the least mention , or intimation , of any other person , that can with any colour be pretended to be made obnoxious to the ( imaginary ) compulsive power of the magistrate , but the stranger only . . one main end of the institution and gift of the sabbath by god , was that such persons ( especially ) who were under such a power and authority of others , by which they might be , and ordinarily were , compelled to labour , work , and pains-taking , as children and servants , together with laboring cattel , might have a seasonable and competent rest , and refreshing , from their accustomed labour . this is evident from several places . six days shalt thou do thy work , and on the seventh day thou shalt rest : that thine ox and thine ass may rest , and the son of thine handmaid , and the stranger may be refreshed k . so again : but the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy god : in it thou shalt not do any work , thou , nor thy son , nor thy daughter , nor thy man-servant , nor thy maid-servant , nor thine ox , nor thine ass , nor any of thy cattel , nor thy stranger that is within thy gates ; that thy man-servant and thy maid-servant may rest as well ar thou . and remember that thou wast a servant in the land of egypt l , &c. this last clause , and remember that thou wast a servant , &c. added by way of motive , and enforcement of obedience unto the preceding commandment , from those , to whom it was more peculiarly given ( as viz. parents , and masters ) plainly sheweth , that god in this commandment did in a very signal and special manner , aim at and intend the ease , comfort , and refreshing of those , who otherwise were subject and in danger to have been over-wrought , surcharged , and oppressed with labour , by others . now then , if it shall be supposed , that these parents , or masters , who have the command of their childrens and servants labours , all the week besides , are either impowered , but especially enjoyned , by god in this commandment , to compel or force them against their wills by stripes , or otherwise , to the outward means of divine worship , he should give them a commission , nay lay an injunction upon them , to make the day intended by him for the comfort , rest , and refreshing of these children and servants , a day of greater sorrow , trouble , and discomfort unto them , as the case might be ( and was frequently not unlike to be ) then any , or all the days of the week besides ; and so should plainly prevaricate with one of his chief intentions in the command , and be divided in himself . . if the magistrate be impowered , or enjoyned , by the commandment before us , to compel ( either by fines , imprisonment , or the like ) strangers or others , to the external worship of god , then in case that worship , whereunto he is supposed to be impowered or enjoyned to compel them , be , in the judgment and conscience of him that is compelled , superstitious , idolatrous , or unlawful , then the magistrate hath not simply a power , but a command layd upon him by god , to force men , and particularly strangers , to pollute their consciences , or at best to play the hypocrites by drawing near unto god with their lips , whilest their hearts are far from him . . ( and lastly ) if the magistrate hath a power or command from god to compel strangers , or others ( by the means aforesaid ) to the outward worship of god , then must he be supposed to be anointed by god with an infallible spirit of discerning , which is the true worship of god , and instituted by himself . otherwise god must be supposed not only to give a commission unto , but even to lay an injunction upon , the blind to lead , yea to hale and drag , the blind ; and not only so , but as the case may be , and is like to be very frequently , to lay an injunction upon the blind , to lead , hale , pull , and drag , even the seeing themselves : which is a much more unnatural absurdity , then the other . these things ( with some others , which i shall not trouble either my self , or reader , to mention , at present ) considered , make it a thing very apparant unto me , that that which led my anti-querist out of the way of the mind of god in the fourth commandment , was partly his pre-conceived opinion of the magistrates power in matters of religion , together with his inability where to find a more plausible or colourable ground for it in all the scripture ; partly his non-advertency that the external or bodily rest from labour , is the only literal and express end of god in this commandment , ( however this literal rest was typical , pointing at both those rests spoken of , heb. . , , . ) partly also the tenor and carriage of the commandment it self , expresly calculated according to the exigency of such an end . for the reason why this commandment was delivered by god in this tenor , or form of words , — in it thou shalt not do any work , thou , nor thy son , nor thy daughter , thy man-servant , nor thy maid-servant , nor thy cattel , nor thy stranger , &c. rather then in this , no person whatsoever , bond or free , young or old , stranger or home-born , no ox or ass whatsoever , or the like , shall do any work ; the reason ( i say ) why god used the former tenor of words in drawing up this commandment , was to intimate , that the rest of the sabbath was not like to be violated , or the commandment it self broken , but by the covetousness , cruelty , or oppression of parents and masters , and such who had power to exact and require labour and work , from others , whether persons , as children , servants , and strangers , or other creatures , as ox , ass , or the like . as the apostle saith , the law was not made ( i.e. was not so much made ) for a righteous man [ meaning , for such a man who is under no likelyhood of sinning ] but for the lawless and disobedient m , &c. i. e. for such , who without the bar of the law and the punishment therein threatened , were , or would be , very propense and apt to do wickedly , &c. upon a like account we may very reasonably conceive and say , that the law of the rest of the sabbath was not so much made for children , or servants , or oxen , or asses , because there is so little propensity in these , to work , or labour , when they are not necessitated unto it by their superiors , in as much as they are no gainers by thir labours , but losers rather ; but for heads of families , masters of servants , parents , of children , owners of laboring cattel , &c. who by reason of those covetous and hard dispositions , which are so incident unto men , that have the opportunity of inriching themselves by the labour of others , were likely to transgress in this kind . or in case there should be found any disposition in a child , or servant , man , or maid ( and there is the same reason of the stranger ) to work on the sabbath day without being compel'd unto it by their parents , or masters , this disposition is sufficiently reproved , or restrained , by god , partly in his restraining their masters and parents themselves from working , partly by restraining them from imposing any burthen of labour upon them on this day . these two particulars are sufficient to inform them , that his will and mind is , that they should rest from labour on the sabbath day . so that when god in the commandment turns himself so particularly unto parents , and masters , charging them they shall not do any work , they , nor their children , nor their servants ( of the one sex , or the other ) his meaning is not , that they should compel them to keep the sabbath ( which is my anti-querists notion ) but that they take heed that they compel them not to break it , viz. by imposing any servile work , or labour upon them on this day . thy children , thy servants , shall do no work ; i. e. they shall not be employed , or required , or constrained by thee , to work on the seventh day . this to be the meaning of god , is yet more evident from hence , viz. that the same charge or injunction is layd upon the parent , or master , in reference to his cattel , which is layd upon him in respect of his children , or servants . in it thou shalt not do any work , thou , nor thy son , nor thy daughter , thy man-servant , nor thy maid-servant , nor thy cattel . now sure enough it is , that men are not commanded to compel or force their cattel to keep the sabbath day , but only not to compel them to labour on this day , which is their breaking of it . but as touching the work or interposure of the magistrate in one kind or other , as such , about the observation of the sabbath , here is altissimum & profundissimum silentium , most perfect and profound silence from the one end of the heaven of this commandment unto the other . to conclude , whereas the anti-querist informeth his reader , that my . . . . . . . . queries concern only the ordination of ministers , which ( he well saith ) is nothing to the question about the magistrates power ; the truth is , that to my best remembrance , the ordination of ministers was not so much as once in all my thoughts , whilest i was drawing up the said queries : nor do any of them concern the ordination of ministers in the least . or if the gentleman will needs , by an acyrology , term the subject of those queries , the ordination of ministers ; then i must crave leave to inform him , that although the said queries do not concern the question of the magistrates power about matters of religion , in the general , yet do they mainly concern a particular branch of that power , which is asserted unto him about such matters in the ministers proposals ; as the reader , if he judgeth it worth his time to compare the one with the other , will readily find . but by the sence of this anti-querist , and the apologist touching the interposure of the magistrates power in matters of religion , it appeareth sufficiently that if the land had a phalaris king over it , there would be found more then one perillus to make him brazen bulls for the tormenting of such christians , who are either too weak , or too wise , to swim down the stream of a state religion , or to call men , rabbi . errata . page . line . for , wirship , read , worship . pag. . l. . for , nye , r. nigh . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a mat. . . a mat. . ● . if therfore the light which is in thee be darkness , how great is that darkness ? a hic ut utini haec est suae aditum patefaceret , cunctarum haeres● ων blasphem as i● sectabatur . b john . . c deut. . . , &c. d deut . e deut. . . notes for div a e- f in duas enim partes , quibus tota continetur justicia , legem suam sic divisit deus , ut priorem religionis officiis , quae peculialiter ad numinis sui cultum pertinent , alteram officiis charitatis , quae in homines respiciunt , assignaverit . calv. inst. l. . c. . §. . g prima tabula est , quae circa deum absque ullo medio versatur : altera vero ad proximum dirigitur . p. martyr . loc. com. class. . c. . §. . h si cogites de dilectione dei & proximi , prima tabula dilectionem dei ; altera , dilectionem proximi requirit . musc. loc. in praecept . octav. et paulo post : prima tabula , quid deo ; altera , quid proximo debeamus praescribit . i nec in primâ tabulâ continentur mandata de officio nostroerga nos , & proximum , sed erga deum . rivet . explicat . decalogi . p. . secunda tabula continet sex alia praecepta , quae nos erudiunt de iis , quae proximo debemus , ut prioris praecepta nos direxerunt ad ea , quibus specialiter & immediate deo sumus astricti . idem . p. . k exod. . . l deut , m tim. . . mercy in her exaltation. or, a soveraigne antidote against fear of the second death. in a sermon preached at the funeral of daniel taylor esq; in stephens colemanstreet london, on the twentieth day of april, an. . goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) mercy in her exaltation. or, a soveraigne antidote against fear of the second death. in a sermon preached at the funeral of daniel taylor esq; in stephens colemanstreet london, on the twentieth day of april, an. . goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by j. macock, for h. eversden, and are to be sold at his shop at the signe of the grey-hound, in paul's churchyard., london, : . dedication signed: john goodvvin. annotation on thomason copy: "july. .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng taylor, daniel, ca. - -- early works to . bible. -- n.t. -- james ii, -- sermons. funeral sermons -- early works to . sermons, english -- th century. a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no mercy in her exaltation. or, a soveraigne antidote against fear of the second death.: in a sermon preached at the funeral of daniel taylor goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion mercy in her exaltation . or , a soveraigne antidote against fear of the second death . in a sermon preached at the funeral of daniel taylor esq in stephens colemanstreet london , on the twentieth day of april , an. . there is no fear in love : but perfect love casteth out fear . john . . his heart is established : he shall not be afraid , until he see his desire upon his enemies . psalm . . certissimè indulgentiam expectare poterit , qui aliis indulgere novit . aug. de tempor . serm. . sine causâ peccata accusant , quem pauper excusat . — qui foenerat pauperi , ipsum sibi judicem praestitit debitorem . chrysologus . london , printed by j. macock , for h. eversden , and are to be sold at his shop at the signe of the grey-hound , in paul's churchyard . . to mris margaret taylor the late wife of mr daniel taylor deceased , mr edmond taylor , mr samuel taylor his brethren , together with the rest of his kindred , allies , friends and acquaintance , grace , mercy , and peace from god the father , and the lord jesus christ . friends , christian and beloved ; it was signified unto me by some of you , as the desire of many more , that what should be preached at the interment of your dear friend and mine , mr daniel taylor , might be commended unto the press , that so the memory of his exemplary and christian life , might live upon the better terms amongst you , and be the readier at hand for your christian service , upon all occasions ▪ the sermon , i confess , rather intimateth , and this very sparingly , then discourseth , the particulars of his worth : upon my entrance hereinto , i declared my self under a solemn resolution ( not much short of a vow ) not to offend the weakest of the living , by commending , no not the strongest of the dead , especially not in the pulpit , not at such a time , when their highest concernments are in hand , and they most sacredly engaged to attend them with all their might and strength . only the principal subject of the sermon , mercy , was indeed not the least of his commendations . his example herein will bless you , if you follow it , but will rise up in judgement against you , if you turn your backs upon it . his other endowments , as well moral as intellectual , were very excellent , both for kind , and degree . he was religious , not of custome , or of course , but of conscience , nobly disdaining to prostitute his judgement to any circumforaneous , or vulgar opinion in matters appertaining unto god , simply upon the credit , or recommendation , of other mens faith ; and withal studiously scrupulous and tender of receiving any notion or tenent whatsoever , into his belief , until he had caused it to pass through the fire of a district examination and enquiry , and found that it would not burn . whilst the health and strength of his body was able to bear the weight of exercises of devotion , he maintained a constant and close trade of communion with god : and in the time of his last weakness , a few weeks before his change , amongst other savoury discourse , he bemoaned himself , that since the prevailing of his distemper upon him , he was deprived of his heart-breaking opportunities with god . his heart was up very high in desires after knowledge of the truth , and this in the most profound questions controverted between men of greatest judgements in these days . books of divinity that were any thing judiciously or accurately written , his delight was , at his spare hours . nocturnâ versare manu , versare diurnà ; by night to read ; and not to spare by day . he put no difference between persons , either for their concurrence with him , or dissent from him , in matters of opinion , or form of worship . but that which commended any person unto him , was his own opinion of his integrity , and goodness of heart towards god . some to whom his heart stood very close in affection , whilst they were yet sound in the faith touching infant-baptism , found no change in his respects towards them , after their judgements had warp'd the contrary way , no not after they had disclaimed all christian communion with him in a church way . his signal integrity , justness , and clearness in dealings , as well in the administration of the trust committed unto him , as in his private occasions , are freely testified by all that had to do with him in either kind , with a nemine contradicen●e , ( as far as i have heard . ) the greatness ( which some call goodness ) of his estate , made no breach at all upon the goodness of his disposition in his conversation : he observed no distance , made between himself , and the meanest of his brethren , by his abundance ; persons even of lowest degree , by the mediation of his affableness and humility , found access unto him upon all their occasions ; and few , if any , came from him discontented . his carriage was composed and grave , yet without affectation : his discourse , seasonable and savoury , without offence . his native temper seemed to incline him to much reservedness : but by judgement and conscience he reduced that which was less desireable , or less useful , in this inclination . his habit and garb every ways comly , sutable rather to his profession , then estate . whatever savoured of ostentation or vanity , he left to be taken up by persons of looser and lighter spirits . the full cup , which god gave unto him , he carried with an even and steady hand , without spilling : yet freely gave to every man that was a thirst , and came in his way , to drink . his intellectual endowments were given him by the largest measure , which god in these days is wont to mete unto men . what ethan , or heman , chalcol , or darda , a were in their generation , the like , or not much unlike , was he in his . his understanding was large , and very comprehensive : his apprehension quick and piercing : his judgement solid and mature , his memory , fast and faithful ; his elocution , or speech , distinct and clear , elegant , and fluent enough , yet not luxuriant or pedantick . he was more then of ordinary abilities to argue the most thorny and abstruse points in divinity ; ready of discerning , where the quick of any controversie , or matter in debate lay : very expert he was in the word of righteousness , able to draw waters of life out of such wells of salvation , from whence many men of good understanding , and parts of learning , had not wherewith to draw , because of the depth of them . he had a singular dexterity to make the rough things of business , smooth , to turn the insides of matters , outward , to untie knots , and dis-intangle intricacies , in all manner of affairs that were brought to him . i scarce know any man amongst those he hath left behind him , of like felicity with him of giving counsel and advice , in cases of difficulty , and doubtful consideration . in sum , as well for parts of nature , as of grace , he was an highly accomplisht man , adorned and set forth by god , for a pattern , as for others , so for you ( more neerly related to him ) more especially . i trust his life though he be dead , shall speak unto you , whilst yours continues , and help to form and fashion you into the same image of christian worth and desireableness with him . the best way to make your selves as little losers as may be by his death , is to live by the pattern of his life , and to preserve the memory of all that was exemplary in him , not so much for story , or discourse , as for a spur to a conscientious imitation . your day is coming , as his is lately past : yet a little while , and you will all overtake him in the dust . if in the mean time your hearts through the grace of god , will serve you so to live , as that you may be counted worthy to stand at the same hand of jesus christ with him in the great day , you and he shall never part company more . the god of all grace shall mightily incline your hearts to desire part and fellowship with him in this blessedness , or else deny ( which i confidently hope he will not ) the fervent prayer , of from my study in swan alley colemanstreet , may . . your friend in christ , cordial and faithful to serve you , john goodvvin . to the reader . good reader , i was bound with a threefold cord of ingagement to publish the sermon in thy hand . first , the memory of my dear friend deceased , at whose funerals it was preached , pleaded the law of friendship , and by the award hereof demanded , either this , or somewhat more monumentous ( if any such thing had been within my reach ) at my hand . secondly the solicitations of some of his relations and friends in the name of many more for the publication of it , were too considerable to be neglected , especially by me , yea or by a person of greater breadth in the world then i. lastly , the misunderstanding ( as i hear ) of some things by some persons , present at the delivery , requires a more steady representation of what was spoken , to make their crooked things streight . the vulgar vote and report of the outward estate of my worthy friend ( now in an incapacity himself to rectifie mens apprehensions in any thing relating to him ) hath been somewhat injurious unto the preciousnesse of his memory , and this even amongst those , who know ground enough wherefore to honour him , and onely suppose a ground wherefore they should honour him lesse . the common estimate and discourse of his estate , surmounting a third part , and not a little more , the reality and truth of it can seth the proportion of his bequests to appear lesse and so lesse honourable and lovely in the eyes of some , the the truth of all things known and considered , reason representeth them . a twelfth , or there abouts sequestred by will out of an estate , where there is a wife ; and several children to be considered , is no proportion of disparagement either to the wisdom , or piety , or bounty of any man ; especially , where a life full of works of mercy hath gone before . when those that are rich in this world , are charged by god to be rich in good works , a the charge ( questionlesse ) respecteth rather the time of the lives , then of the deaths , of such men . and when as god himself hath contented himself with prescriptions in general , as that rich men do good , be ready to distribute , willing to communicate , be rich in good works , &c. b for men to undertake to prescribe particulars , is a kind of pretending to be wise above that which is written . however , i wish , rather then expect , that they who complain that grantham steeple stands awry , would set up a streighter by it , and fear that when themselves shall come to the triall , they will justifie the truth of the greek proverb , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. that it is easier to carp then to copy , or imitate . but whilest others censure , certain i am the poor lament and mourn over the loss of their good benefactor ; and are like to have cause of greater lamentation for the future , unlesse god shall vouch safe to stir up unto them some other , one , or more , like unto him , anointed with the like spirit of mercy in his stead . concerning the sermon-mistakes of some ( for i do not hear of more then a very few that found , what , or how to mistake ) it seems they were jealous that some things delivered trench'd very neare ( if not too neare ) upon the popish doctrine of justification by works . but certain i am that i speak nothing from first to last of works , in reference to justification ; nor did either the subject i had in hand , nor the method of my discourse , lead me to treat little or much of justification ; especially not of that justification which consists in remission of sins . i am not more clear , nor better resolved in my judgement , touching the truth of any one article , o● doctrine of christian religion , then that all the good works in the world , were they , or could they be perform'd by any one man that hath sinned in the least , would not be able to procure the pardon or forgiveness of his sins . pardon of sin cannot be obtained by doing of good , but by suffering evil , and this by a person who is sinlesse , according to the typical representation under the law , of which the apostle speaks , heb. . . and almost all things are by the law purged with blood : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and without shedding of blood there is no remission . that justification which consists in the divine approbation of men , as , well done good and faithful servant , mat. . . . and so , then shall every man have praise of god , cor. , . of which kind of justification that is to be understood , not the hearers of the law are just before god , but the doers of the law shall be justified , rom. . . so again , then shall the king say unto them on his right hand , come ye blessed of my father inherit , &c. mat. . . &c. this kind of justification ( i say ) without which no man shall be saved , more then without the other , is to bee obtained by good works , yet not properly , nor so much by the merit of these works , as by vertue of the law of god's most gracious and bountifull acceptation . and yet to say or think on the other hand , that there is nothing at all in these works , or nothing more then in others which are contrary to them , to commend any man unto god for his approbation or acceptance , is to reflect disparagement upon his wisdom and right●●●●●● esse in the establishment of that law , by which they come to be approved , and accepted upon such terms . some words ( possibly ) might fall from me in my sermon relating to this justification , i mean , to the notion , matter , or substance of it ; for as for the term or word it self , i purposely declined it to prevent mistakes in those that might be weak , not having then either time or occasion , to open or handle the difference between the two justifications . but i have had experience before now of that strein of weaknesse in many professors , which makes them unable to distinguish between things necessary to justification and to salvation ; and again , between the two kinds of justification now specified . by reason of this weakness , some have taken deep impressions of discontent and offence at those ministers of the gospel ▪ who were men of the greatest faithfulnesse to their souls , onely because they were zealous and importunale in exhorting , perswading , provoking , pressing , urging them to good works , in order to the saving of their souls , which notwithstanding is the apostles expresse doctrine , tim. . , , . and the holy ghosts in i know not how many places more . i have added , altered , or inserted very little , in so much of the sermon insuing , as i had time to deliver , when it was preached . onely i give a brief touch of one thing forgotten about the explication of the doctrine , and increase the number of the reasons by one or two . otherwise , that which is here added , is little , but some inlargements of my self in the application , which being imprisoned in an hour glasse , i had no liberty then to deliver . god , who sometimes hangeth great weights upon small wiers , give thee much out of this little , and cause the treasury of thy grace and knowledge to rejoice by the casting in of this mite in to it . in the prayer , there is the heart of from my study in swan-alley coleman-street london , may . . thy friend and brother , zealous to serve thee in christ . john goodwin . errata . page . line . read , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . p. , l. . r. occasions . l. . dele . arc . p. . l. . . r. grounds , reasons . p. . l. . d. the . l. . r. whit as . p. . l. . r. children . p. . l. . r. sympathy . p , . l. . r. their . l. . seeth his , should be transferred hither , from the line following . p. . l. . r. heaps . p. . l. . r. her . p. . l. . r. irresistible . p. . l. . r. men . james . . and mercy rejoyceth against judgement . the dead ( as david's meditation long since awarded the case ) praise not the lord ; meaning , by any thing they now do in the state and condition of death : only by those things which they did whilest they were yet living , if they were proper for such a service , they may , though now dead , be said to praise him ; as the holy ghost said concerning abel some thousands of yeers after his death , that by the sacrifice , which he offered by faith unto god , whilest he was living , being dead , he yet speaketha . and if the dead praise not god , neither shall i praise them , but leave this to their works , by which they praise him ( if they praise him at all . ) if what they did , whilst they were living , was judged by them sufficient to praise god , we cannot well but judge the same sufficient to praise them also , whether it was much they did upon that account , or whether little . for if they did much for the praise of god , whilest they lived , such a proportion of goodness will lift up their praises also on high , being dead . if they did little , great praises would be uncomly for them , and could not be answered for before god by those , that shall adorn their names with them . it is well known to a great part of you , who now hear me , that for several years past , i have put from me the custome of funeral elogies and commendations , bequeathing this service unto the works of the deceased , which have a commission from god to perform it b ( if there be cause ) whereas i have none that i know of , especially not to do it in consort with the work now in hand . but i have declined the practise , partly because of the offensiveness of it unto many , who are weak ; partly because of the offensive practise , and mis-use of it by some , who seem otherwise strong . i confess , that as it was the saying of one long since ; if a dishonest practise be in any case tolerable , it is for the purchase and procurement of a kingdom ; in all other cases , justice and right must take place c ; so if a minister or messenger of god could be venially tempted to dispense with so good a resolution , as that which he hath taken up against blowing a trumpet in the pulpit before the dead , my standing at present is upon the ground of such an opportunity , being called to preach at the interment of a man of a most exemplary and signal worth in every kind , and whose life can hardly be remembred by those who have any steady knowledge of it , without falling into an agony of sorrow and heaviness for his death . and as it was the saying of the poet in respect of the enormous vices of the times and place wherein he lived , that it was an hard matter , satyram non scribere , not to write satyrically ; so may i well say on the other hand , in respect of many things so highly commendable and christian in him , upon the occasion of whose death i am now speaking unto you , difficile est laudes non dicere , a man must resist a temptation to refrain from praising him . however , partly for my resolutions sake ( which is not far from a vow ) but more especially for your sakes , whom it much more concerns to be made praise-worthy your selves , then to hear another praised before you , i shall leave the deceased to the good report of all men ( which he purchased at an high rate of well-doing , when time was ) and of the truth it self [ the word of god , which giveth large testimony unto him , and unto all like to him ] and shall in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ , by the opening and applying of the words read unto you , make an attempt upon you , to make you , if it may be , like unto him in that which was his glory , whilest he lived , and his rejoycing at his death ; i mean , his goodness and mercy . mercy enlarged his heart to rejoyce against judgement : and oh ! how happy shall you be , if you will be perswaded to cast in your lot with him , and suffer god to put into your heart , by his word and spirit , which are now about to put you upon the trial , to take part and fellowship with him in that his rejoycing . let us then , with as much brevity as your interest in the opportunity before you , will ( to the best of my understanding ) permit , endeavour . to open the mind of god unto you in the words read ; and then . to shew you how this treasure of the mind of god , may and ought to be improved by you to your spiritual , yea and temporal advantage also ; so leaving your consciences , and the good word of god together , to agree upon the things both of your present , and eternal comfort and peace . and mercy ( saith the apostle , if rightly englished ) rejoyceth against judgement . in the former part of the verse , he had said . for he shall have judgement without mercy [ i. shall be very severely handled by god in the great day , the sentence that shall pass upon him , shall be most insupportable ] who hath shewed no mercy , [ viz. whilst he liv'd , and had opportunity to shew it ] and then subjoyneth ( as you have heard ) in the latter part of the verse ; and mercy rejoyceth against judgement . this latter clause manifestly relates unto the former by way of antithesis , or opposition : in which respect the particle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is here rather to be construed adversatively , then copulatively , and would better be translated , but , then and , as it is elsewhere . for cor. . . whereas it is in the original , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the particle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is rendered , but , but his will was not at all to come at this time . so likewise , thes. . . where the greek hath it , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , our translators give us , but sathan hindred us . thus our former translators , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , mat. . ● . translated , but the care of this life , &c. and ( to omit more instances in this kind ) where the original , john . . hath it , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} &c. they left us in english , but ye will not , &c. and thus i conceive the sense of the clause before us would be better accomodated , if the words were read thus : but mercy rejoyceth against judgement . for then the connexion of it with the former will lie before us in such a tenour of discourse as this : he shall have judgement without mercy , who hath shewed no mercy : but he that shall shew mercy , shall , not only have a judgement full of mercy , yea and which shall upon the matter ) be made of mercy , be all mercy ; but shall in the mean time , before the day of judgement comes , be able to rejoyce , or glory over it , and enjoy himself in a blessed security that he shall not be hurt by it . the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , here translated mercy , is of somwhat a more comprehensive signification ; and signifieth not only that christian disposition or affection in men ( with the fruits or effects of it ) which we commonly call mercy , but several other dispositions also of affinity with this , as clemency , gentleness , love , readiness to forgive and forget injuries , and the like ; as these , or some of these , somtimes likewise include mercy ( properly so called ) in their signification . and not long since from rom. . . we observed , that words of a cognate signification are in the scriptures frequently used promiscuously , one for another . in the place before us , the word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , may well be conceived , by the opposition between the former and latter part of the verse ( already hinted ) to import some such christian affection ( with the fruits of if ) as that which in greek is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which properly signifies usefulness , and is frequently translated , goodness , as rom. . . rom. . . cor. . ▪ &c. a worthy principle found in all good men and women , enclining them upon all occasions , according to that power and means , which are in their hand , to relieve , help , and comfort those , who stand in need of help from them in one kind or other . when i mention this , or any other holy disposition of like nature with it , i still insert these , or the like words , with the fruits thereof , partly because it is the familiar dialect of the scripture , under words properly signifying some inward affection , or disposition only , to comprehend , together with the affection , the actings or effects proper to it , as the word , faith , frequently importeth , together with the inward grace , or principle of faith in the heart , the proper fruits of it also , which we commonly call , good works , or an holy conversation ( instances of this kind of scripture-language , besides that mentioned , there are without number , but we hasten ) partly also , because that which is here ascribed to this heavenly disposition of mercy , as viz. that it rejoyceth against judgement ( of which presently ) enforceth us so to interpret and understand it [ viz. as signifying with the inward affection of mercy , the outward fruits or works of mercy ] according to that true and necessary rule in logick , subject a talia sunt , qualia à praedicatis suis esse permittuntur ; i. subjects in propositions must be so understood , as their predicates , or that which is said of them in the said proposition , will permit and bear . now we shall ( god assisting , and the time not preventing ) in the process of our discourse , shew , that it is not meerly and barely the inward affection of mercy , that is able to raise this glorious effect of rejoycing against judgement , but the affection seconded , aided , and strengthned by her worthy actings , and practical exertions of her self ; according to what our apostle teacheth us in the very next verse ( with several verses following ) concerning faith : can faith ( saith he ) save a man ? meaning , that it is contrary to all principles , as well of reason as religion , to imagine that an empty and bare faith , not attended with such works , which are comly or meet for faith to bear , at least having time and opportunity to bring forth in this kind , should ever advance or lift up the creature to such an estate of blessedness and glory , as salvation importeth . for to this purpose he explaineth himself , vers. . even so faith , if it hath not works , is dead {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , of it self [ is dead , i. useless and unprofitable , as dead things are , to those who have it , especially in respect of such great and high productions , or attainments , as salvation ] in such a sense as this , mercy also , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and without works , may be said to be dead , and consequently no ways able to yeild such rich and pleasant fruit , as rejoycing against judgement . so then , mercy rejoyceth against judgement , i. mercy , with her children , the tree of mercy well laden with fruit growing on it , thus rejoyceth . only this is further to be considered , that when the apostle attributes by way of honour and priviledge , unto mercy , this rejoycing against judgement , he is not to be understood to speak of mercy simply , or of mercy in any faint or inferior degree , though seconded with works proportionable , or of such a kind of mercy , which is over-shadowed and ( as it were ) superintended , or over-awed by covetousness , nor of a pinching , or penurious kind of mercy , which is somtimes found in worldly , covetous , yea and oppressing men ( as the pharisees in our saviours days , were wont to give almes as it were of course , and yet were covetous , and ravening wolves , and some men will give a little to stop the mouths of their consciences , hoping hereby to keep possession of all the rest with the more peace ) but of mercy in some degree of her exaltation , of mercy , which hath her great enemies , covetousness , and hard-heartedness , penuriousness , and narrow-heartedness , &c. under her feet . it is the frequent manner of the scripture to use words of a general signification , and which ordinarily signifie the species or kinds of things ( indefinitely ) in an emphatical sense , viz. for that which excelleth , and is eminently considerable in its kind . in the last verse of the fourth chapter of this epistle , it is said ; therefore to him that knoweth to do good , and doth it not , to him it is [ or , there is ] sin [ i sin of a great demerit , or of high provocation in the sight of god ] for otherwise it is sin to men [ simply , or in some degree ] not to do good , whether they know to do it , or no ; as is evident from our saviours decision of the case , luk. . . so when god discourseth with job about that kind of creature , which we call , the horse ( job . . ) hast thou given the horse strength ? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder ? the glory of his nostrils is terrible , &c. ( with much more of like import ) by the word , horse , here , he doth not mean any kind of horse , or every thing that may properly or truly enough in ordinary language be termed , an horse : the greatest part of horses have neither part nor fellowship in this description : but he speaks of an horse that is high of mettle , strong of limbs , full of courage , &c. in like manner , when the apostle commends love , or charity . cor. . by that great variety of the signal effects of it here mentioned , as that it behaveth not it self unseemly , seeketh not her own , beareth all things , believeth all things , hopeth all things , &c. he doth not by love , or charity , mean , this grace in any inferiour , weak , or low degree , but in her strength , and some considerable advance in the soul . other instances of this kind the sc●ipture affords many a . so then when we hear the holy ghost , speaking thus gloriously of mercy , as that it rejoyceth against judgement , we must conceive him to speak of it , nor simply , or absolutely , as it is such a grace , or holy affection , in respect of the kind of it , but ( as hath been already said ) as it is such in degree also , and in some considerable elevation in the soul . it followeth , rejoyceth against judgement , ] {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , rejoycingly gloryeth over , or against , judgement . it is somwhat a like expression ( for sense , and import ) with that job . . at destruction and famine thou shalt laugh , that is , thou shalt be confident , and herein take great contentment , that these shall not endanger or hurt thee , as they are like to do the generality of men . or like that , mich. . . ( spoken in the name of the church of the jews to her enemy ) rejoyce not against me , o mine enemy ; i. please not thy self , take no such contentment in my present afflicted and low condition , as if i were never like to be again in a capacity of quelling thy pride , or avenging my self on thee ; as it follows , when i fall , i shall arise ; meaning , that she should get up again , and recover strength to make her part good with her . so when it is said , mercy rejoyceth against judgement , the meaning is , that mercy [ so understood as was lately opened ] qualifieth , strengthneth , enableth the person in whom it is found , to be confidently secure , that he shall receive no prejudice or hurt by the judgement of god , by that judgement , which god shall pass upon the world in the great day , and under which the greatest part of the world will fall , and never rise more . there is scarce any thing more usual in the scripture , then to ascribe that to the quality or form , which properly belongeth to the subject qualified with it , or ( which is much the same ) to put the abstract for the concrete . as in those passages lately mentioned , charity beareth all things , believeth all things , hopeth all things , &c. the meaning clearly is , that charitable persons , or men and women richly endued with charity , do all these things by vertue of that excellent endowment ; thus rom. . . the election hath obtained it [ i. all those , whether men or women , who believe , and hereupon , by vertue of the eternal decree of god in that behalf , are separated from others , and made an elect or choice generation of persons unto him , have obtained it , meaning righteousness or justification . ] thus also some understand ( and haply not amiss ) that , rom. . . but the righteousness which is of faith , speaketh on this wise : say not in thy heart , who shall ascend , &c. the righteousness which is of faith , i. persons justified by faith , by means of this their faith , are wont to encourage and speak unto men , thus : say not in thy heart , who &c. so then , the true and entire sense and import of the words before us , riseth thus : merciful men , men whose hearts and hands are much exercised in doing of good , in shewing mercy , by means of the conscience , or consciousness of this god-like disposition in themselves , and the regular actings of it , are , or lightly cannot but be , full of a joyful and blessed security , that they shall stand in the great judgement of the world , and find favour and acceptance in the eyes of the judge , when all unmerciful , covetous , and hard-hearted wretches shall fall under it , and be ground to powder by it . if there be any thing further requisite for the due understanding of the words , notice may be given of it upon occasion , in the sequel . the only point of doctrine that we shall commend unto your christian attention from the words ( as they have been opened ) is this : a rich and blessed assurance of salvation is the genuine and proper result , or fruit , of much mercy . or if you please , the doctrine may be conceived in this , or the like , tenour of words ( agreeing , in substance , with the former ) a person rich in works of mercy , is , or readily may be , joyfully secure , and this upon good ground , from perishing , or that he shall not perish , in the condemnation of the world . first , ( to prevent mistakes , if it may b●● we shall a little further explain the doctrine unto you , in some particulars . . we shall consult the scriptures for our better establishment in the truth of it . . we shall endeavour to demonstrate the truth of it , from its proper grounds and principles . . and lastly , ( the time permitting ) we shall , as god shall enable , joyn the spirit of the doctrine , and your consciences , somwhat closer together , in a way of use and application . for the first ; there are . particulars , wherein the doctrine requires some explication . . it is not to be understood , as if it entituled rich men only to that glorious security from condemnation , of which it speaks , or as if they alone were in a condition to perform works of mercy , and men that are poor and low in the world , excluded from all part and fellowship in that happy business . for certainly , even the poorest of men and women are capable of shewing mercy , as well as the rich , though not in all the same respects . they may shew mercy , and this not only one to another , but even unto rich men themselves , as viz. by commiserating and pittying them in respect of their slippery and most dangerous standing by means of their riches ( of which our saviour gives notice in the gospel a ) and so by praying unto god for them , that he will keep their foot from being taken in the snare of this worlds abundance ; and again , by suffering them to enjoy their wealth , not only without any impeachment or impairing of it by them , but without their having an evil eye upon it , without envying or repining , that they ride upon horses , when as themselves go on foot ; and yet further by not suffering , as far as lyeth in them , any person whatsoever unrighteously to touch any thing ▪ that is theirs ; by ●●stifying their good will towards them , in endeavouring to stop all hard sayings , and sinister reports concerning them , as of covetousness , pride , hardness , &c. so also by a ready , free , diligent and faithful serving them in all such occasions , wherein at any time they shall stand in need of their help , and desire it . for rich men are not priviledged by their riches against all kind of miseries , nor against all wants , indigencies , or necessities : yea they have their dependencies upon the poorer sort of men , as well as these have theirs upon them ; and these ( perhaps ) if things were duely estimated , as many , and as great : the king himself ( saith solomon ) is served by the field b ; [ or as the hebrew hath it , is servant to the field ] viz. the care and labor of the poor husbandman intervening : and in such a sense as this , in which he is , or may be said , to be a servant to the field , he may be also said to be a servant to the husbandman . the philosopher likewise in his fable of the lyon and the mouse , very emphatically taught the grand necessity which the greatest of men may sometimes have of the help of the meanest , where ▪ he fancieth , the lyon being taken , intangled , and held fast , in the toile or net of the hunter ; that the mouse upon the lyons roaring , came and with her little teeth gnawed the net insunder , until way was made for the lyons escape . so then the poorest sort of men , that are but able to give a cup of cold water , or to speak a good word of a man , or to conceive a prayer for him , or to forgive injuries , or to minister with the hand to any mans outward occaosins , when desired , or the like , may be mreciful to what degree they please in their way , and consequently are as capable of that high priviledge , a glorious securitie from condemnation , as rich men themselves . this in the first place . . when the doctrine affirmeth , that a merciful frame of heart is a proper means to secure it , against condemnation , and the fear of it , the meaning is not ( nor is it implyed ) that all persons who are commendably and christianly mercifull , do actually , or at all times injoy themselves in this blessed securitie . some may not so throughly understand , either the nature of mercy , or the nature of god so sympathizing with it , or may forget at present to compare the one with the other , or neglect to consider how god hath poured out himself in promises of grace and mercy unto persons of this heavenly character . therefore all the doctrine intends ( as to this point ) is , that persons signally merciful , or full of goodne●s , are by the advantage of this gracious disposition worthily acted , either are in the actual possession of that heavenly security we speak of , or at least in a rich and regular capacity to be argued , either by themselves , or others , into it , or , that they are not far from it . this is another particular to be taken into consideration for a right understanding of the doctrine . . ( and lastly ) when it attributeth unto mercy ( in the sence declared ) a joyful exemption from fear of judgment or condemnation , it doth not speak of a loose , prodigal , or vain glorious disposition , which ( haply ) in some person may affect the name of , merciful , because it effectually inclines them , as mercy is wont to incline her children , to part with their money , or other good things , freely enough unto others , amongst whom some that are indigent and stand in need , may sometimes ( it is like ) be found . such a principle or disposition as this ; deserveth not the name of mercy , because a man or woman may be acted by it without any compassionate sense at all of the miseries or necessities of those , who are relieved by them . nor doth the doctrine , by mercy , understand any affection of that name , wherewith some , both men and women , are ( as it were ) prevented , not knowing how , or by what means , they became thus merciful , or compassionate , as our saviour speaketh of some that are eunuches from their mothers womb , ( as of others , who make themselves such for the kingdom of god . ) for though this kind of mercy be commendable , and proceedeth from god , as the author of nature , yet it is not able to create that heaven of security in the heart and soul of a man , unto which the doctrine intituleth that mercy , of which it speaks . this mercy then importeth an affection raised in the soul of a man or woman by gospel consideration ( the holy ghost over-shaddowing or assisting those endeavours , or that exercise of the mind and conscience , by which it is raised ) whereby they are effectually inclined and provoked to minister unto the necessities of those that stand in need , when they have opportunity , according to the means which god hath touchvouchsafed unto them for their relief . this ( with what brevity we could ) for the explication of the doctrine . for the truth of it , so understood , as hath been declared , although that one text of scripture , upon which it hath been built , be of sufficient evidence and authority to secure it unto your judgments and consciences , yet let us give you measure heaped up , by insisting upon some others for the strengthening and enriching of this security . he shall not be afraid ( saith david , speaking of the man that is gracious , and full of compassion and righteous , psal. . . ) such a man ( saith he ) shall not be afraid of evil tidings ( he means , any , or all such tidings which import evil , i. e. which are of a sadding , or terrifying nature unto the generality of men ) his heart is fixed trusting in the lord . his heart is established : he shall not be afraid , till he see his desire upon his enemies : the tidings of the day of judgment , when far the greatest part of the world shall be sent quick to hell , never to return thence to the days of eternity , are tidings of the greatest evil to the generality of men and women , that can be , yet he that is gracious [ i. e. apt to do good without any carnal motive or inducement thereunto ] and full of compassion , shall not be astonyed , or struck with fear at these tidings , though so formidably evil ( as hath been said ) as appears by that which followeth : his heart is fixed , his heart is established , trusting in the lord ; meaning , that his trusting in god , is that which fixeth and establisheth his heart , so that it is not , it cannot be shaken , or tossed up and down within him with those storms and tempests and whirlwinds of fear , which are the rending , and tearing , and tormenting of other mens . a feather , though it be a very weak and light thing , and hath nothing in it self to balast it , or wherewith to resist the least puff or whiff of wind , yet if it be close and fast knit or bound to a great rock , it pertakes of the stability and firmness of this rock , and can no more be shaken , or removed , then the rock it self . in like manner , a man made of flesh and blood , a creature very contemptible in his own strength , apt to be shaken and shattered in pieces with sad expectations and fears of what it may suffer from time to time , yet being close united unto god , and cleaving fast to him in trust and dependance becomes interessed in the security and unmoveableness of god himself . this happy posture or condition of soul , the apostle calleth a being strong in the lord , and in the power of his might a ; meaning , that good christians , and true beleevers , ought to be as secure , as dreadless and fearless of evil , notwithstanding their own weakness , as if they were themselves invested with the glorious omnipotencie , or power of the might of god , and had the same means for their preservation and safety in their own hands , which now are in his . he shall not be afraid ( saith david , further displaying the security or fearless posture of his gracious and compassionate man ) until he see his desire upon his enemies , i. e. until he shall see all those , whether persons or things , from whence he may be conceived to be in danger of suffering evil , so broken , scattered , and confounded , that he shall fully know himself to be out of all danger offuffering from them ; meaning , that he should never be afraid : for he that is without fear until he see his enemies utterly destroyed , certainly will not be afraid afterwards . now the great and most formidable enemies of the gracious and compassionate man , as he is a man , are death , and hell [ or the grave ] with their sad and dismal retinue , both a parte ●●te , and a parte post , before , and after . therefore the man now before us , gracious , and full of compassion shall not be afraid , [ i. shall enjoy himself in a blessed tranquillity and security of mind ] until he shall see his desire on them [ i. until he shall see both death and hell , with all their train , cast into the lake of fire , rev. . . ] after which he shall apparantly be out of all danger of being hurt by them . why david insisteth up●n this qualification , full of compassion , in characterizing such a person , whose heart should be fixed and established by trusting in the lord , and consequently , who should not be afraid , &c. and why a person of this character should trust in the lord , and so be established , rather then any other man , shall be shewed unto you when we come to open the ground and reason of the doctrine . in the mean time give me your patience to add a brief passage or two out of the first epistle of john , for your further satisfaction in the truth of the doctrine . we know ( saith this apostle in this epistle , c. . . ) that we have passed from death to life , because we love the brethren . that he speaks here in a more particular manner of love to the poor brethren , which uttereth it self after the manner of goodness , mercy , and compassion , appears from the sequel of the context , and more especially from vers . . but who so hath this worlds goods , and seeth his brother have need , and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him , how dwelleth the love of god in him ? now then the apostle ( as ye heard ) speaking thus ; we know that we have passed from death to life , because we love the brethren ; his meaning is , that all they who love the brethren ( in the sense specified ) i. express themselves in a way of kindness and mercy to such of the brethren who are poor , and stand in need of their help , know hereby , i. may readily or easily know hereby , have a pregnant ground on which to be built up in this blessed confidence or assurance , that they have passed from death to life , that the bitterness of the wrath , and vengeance which is to come , is already passed as to them , and that condemnation shall not be their portion . the , and . verses of the th chapter of the same epistle , are confederate in notion and import , with the now-opened passage , and give testimony to the same truth . in the former , herein ( saith john ) is our love [ or , love with us , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] made perfect , that we may have boldness in the day of judgement , because as he is , so are we in this world . as if he should say , this is a signe , an argument , that our love hath attained some measure , or degree , of perfection , and hath acted its part well , when it hath raised us to a boldness , or fearlesness of spirit , in the day [ i. against the day ] of the judgement of the world . or thus , the consideration of this great priviledge , or fruit of our love , when it shall be grown to any strength or perfection , is a worthy motive unto us to perfect it , or to hasten us to the perfecting of it , viz. that by it we shall have boldness [ or , liberty of face , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] in the day of judgement . now they , who at present know they shall have boldness in the day of judgement , must needs have , even at present , a large first fruits of that harvest . it follows : because as he is , so are we in this world . this clause seems to contain a reason or ground of the former assertion , and to import that our being found in this world by means of our love perfected , like unto god , or unto christ , who fils the world with the fruits of his love , goodness and mercy , is a pregnant reason , why we should even at present , promise unto our selves boldness in the day of judgement , in as much as there is not the least colour for any jealousie or fear , that god should condemn those in the day of judgment , who have been like unto himself in works of love , goodness and mercie ( works wherein himself most delighteth ) and this in a place , where it is a matter of greatest difficulty and disadvantage for men to resemble him in these , viz. this present world , where there are so few examples leading , or incouragements inducing , unto such things ; yea and very many things greatly discouraging from them . the tenor of the latter of the two verses pointed at , is , there is no fear in love . he speaks of love made perfect ( as appears both from the former verse , as also from the clause immediately following : ) in this love ( he saith ) there is no fear , i. e. with this love , or where this love is , there is no fear [ viz. of condemnation , or rejection by god : ] the reason follows , by way of antithesis ; but perfect love , i. e. because love when grown to any good degree of perfection , casteth out [ such ] fear out of the same heart with it . and the reason ( saith he ) why love carrieth this opposition in it unto fear ( as viz. to eject and cast it out of the soul ) is because fear hath punishment , or torment , implying that the nature of love , goodness and mercy , is so rich , sweet and god-like , that it will endure nothing that is afflicting , or tormenting , neither in others as far as it is able to relieve them ; but especially not , in its own subject , in the same person , where it self resideth . this for proof of the doctrine from the scriptures . proceed we to the further demonstration of it by principles and grounds in reason . first , a spirit of mercy acting regularly , and bringing forth fruit in due season , must needs breed that good blood in the soul which the doctrine speaks of , bless men with a glorious security , at least with a rich capacity of being secured , against judgement , and fear of condemnation , because it renders them like unto god , and this clearly to their own sense , and in their own understandings , in such things or respects , upon which they are declared and owned by him in the scriptures , as his children . but i say unto you ( saith our saviour to his disciples ) love your enemies , bless them that curse you , do good to them that hate you , and pray for them that despitefully use you , and persecute you , that you may be the children of your father which is in heaven . for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good , and sendeth rain on the just , and unjust a . it is the manner of the scripture to call persons , the children of those whom they resemble in their genius , or ways . thus they who resemble abraham in his faith , are termed abrahams children , and so , abrahams seed , luke . . joh. . . rom. . . gal. . . &c. and those who resemble the divel in his wicked disposition and practises , are termed his children , ioh. . . act. . . ioh. . . see more of this notion , ezek. . . isai. . . but those who resemble god in his goodness and mercy unto men , are not termed his children upon the bare account of such an imitation , but rather because they are partakers of the divine nature ( as peter speaketh ) and have been spiritually begotten of him . beloved ( saith john ) let us love one another ; for love is of god , and every one that loveth is born of god ; and knoweth god b . and whereas men are said to be the children of god by faith in christ jesus c , the faith by which they become his children , is onely such a faith , which hath the works we speak of , works of goodness and mercy always in the womb and heart of it , and upon occasion , in the hand of it , according to the apostles own explication of himself in such sayings as this : for in christ jesus , [ i. e. under the gospel or under the profession of christ come in the flesh ] neither circumcision availeth any thing [ viz. towards justification , or salvation ] nor uncircumcision , but faith which worketh [ or rather which is operative , or working , i. e , which effectually disposeth and inclineth thethe person in whom it resideth , to work by love a , clearly implying that such a faith which is not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , very operative ( for such is the import of the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) by love , or through love , [ both unto god , and men ] availeth every whitis little , either to justification , or salvation , as circumcision , or uncircumcision themselves . but this by the way . now then if works of goodness and mercy , declare and avouch men and women , and this in their own consciences , to be not only followers of god in his ways of greatest delight , but his children also , partakers of his nature , they cannot lightly be in bondage under any servile jealousies or fears of being condemned , or destroyed by him . men that are evil ( as our saviour remindeth us , ye●know [ by the instinct and teachings of nature ] to give good things unto their children , &c. so far are they from destroying them . how then can it enter into the heart or any man , that god , who is full of love and all goodness , yea goodness it self , and so acknowledged by all men , should abandon his chitdren , who are are really and truly , though spiritually , descended from him , and who avouch their heavenly parentage in the sight of the world , by doing the works of their great father , that he ( i say ) should abandon such children as these unto perdition , unto the vengeance of eternal fire . a second reason of the doctrine is : when a mans heart is enlarged in mercy , kindness and love to those that stand in need , so that doing of good unto such , is a thing connatural and pleasing to him , comporting with his genius and disposition , he is in an advantagious posture hereby to take impressions of a belief , that like gracious and merciful dispositions are to be found in others also ; according to that of the apostle ; charity or love , — beleeveth all things , hopeth all things a [ i. e. effectually inclineth , or disposeth the persons qualified with it , to beleeve and hope the best concerning others , upon any competent and tolerable grounds for either , and where reasons are not pregnant or convincing of the contrary ] especially a man by means of such a frame and temper of his own heart and spirit , as that we speak of , is richly prepared to entertain the report of the kindness and mercy , of the goodness and love of god , in the gospel . for he that is conscious to himself , that he himself is graciously and mercifully inclined , can freely pardon those that have injured or offended him , can freely minister unto the necessities of those that stand in need , must of necessity beleeve that god is above him in all these excellencies , more gracious , more merciful , &c. ( which we know is the tenor and substance of the gospel ) or else make himself , if not superior , yet equal unto god , in those things , which are his greatest glory in the eyes of his creature . now this the conscience of every man and woman naturally trembles and abhors to do . therefore he that is large-hearted and open handed , in mercy , kindness and goodness unto men , hath space and roomth ( as it were ) within him to receive and give entertainment unto that great salvation , which the gospel brings and offers unto the world , together with all the heavenly retinue of the grace , love , goodness , mercy and bounty of god , which accompany it : all which being received into the soul by faith , joyn hand in hand to secure him against condemnation . whereas men and women of narrow and scant hearts , wherein there is stowage and roomth onely for themselves and their own worldly concernments , lie under a most sad disadvantage , next to an incapacity , to embrace the glad tidings of the gospel , in their due compass and extent , without which they will hardly reach to the effectual allaying and quelling of their fears of wrath and condemnation for their sins . it is a piece of the prayer which paul made for the ephesians , that being rooted and grounded in love [ i. e. being upon pregnant , weighty , and mature considerations and grounds , resolved against all disswasives and temptations to the contrary , to persevere in love , and in the exercise of it , they might by the opportunity and help of such a frame of heart , be able to comprehend with all saints , [ i. e. to conceive and understand , with a commensurableness of apprehension and faith , as near as may be , wherein i pray that all the saints may be partakers likewise with you ] what is the breadth and length , and depth , and height , and to know the love of christ , that passeth knowledge , &c. to know the love of christ in all the dimensions of it here named , to know it ( i mean ) as men may , and ought to know it ( though otherwise in the full compass of it , it is above the knowledge and belief of men ) but i say to know it , as men may know it , is sufficient to rescue their hearts and consciences out of the hand of all fear of judgement or condemnation for sin . now then the apostle in the passage yet before us , clearly supposeth . . that persons rooted and grounded in love ( in the sense declared ) are in a rich and immediate capacity of attaining this knowledge ; and . that no person without this qualification or advantage , is in any likelyhood , yea or possibility , to attain it . where love to god and men with the rest of the gracious retinue which still bear it company , as mercy , goodness , &c. have not opened , widened , and enlarged the heart to a very great extent and compass , the breadth and length , depth and height of the love of christ to men , cannot by reason of their vast dimensions , enter , or receive entertainment there . this is a second reason . thirdly , there is a principle found in the generality of men , to conceive and think that god is like unto themselves in inward principles and dispositions , whatsoever these be . the truth is , that by creation they did in these resemble him , and were like unto him , and this was their glory , being ( i conceive ) that image of god , in which they are said to have been created . again , true it is , that by regeneration this resemblance is regained : and this for the measure or degree of it , proportionable to the greater or leser perfection of the work it self of regeneration . now though wicked men by voluntary sinning , and continuing in sin upon such terms , grievously obliterate , deface , and wast this image or similitude of god in themselves , and make themselves more like unto satan , then god ; yet partly out of the pride , partly out of the ignorance of their hearts , partly out of a desire to enjoy themselves in the pleasures and contentments of sin without fear of being judged by god for it in the end , they are willing to hearken unto satan , when he suggesteth unto them , and tempteth them to beleeve that god symbolizeth in the same principles , genius and disposition with them , according to that of david , thou thoughtest ( speaking in the person of god to a wicked man ) that i am altogether such an one as thy self , and consequently , that i am not offended with thee , will not punish thee , for thy wickedness : but thou art dreadfully deceived in this : for ( as it follows ) i will reprove thee , and set them [ thy sins ] in order before thine eyes a ; meaning , that he would judge and punish him severely for them , and this with such a kind of judgement , which should be as glass unto him , wherein he should ( as it were ) see his sins one after another as he had committed them , in their native and proper shapes of deformity . now as wicked men are apt to think , though very foolishly and falsly , that god is of their mind and like unto them , so are holy and good men apt to think also , and this according to their duty , and the truth ; onely acknowledging their own infirmities and imperfections , and consequently , their due distance from god . good men cannot but think that god is good , that he is holy , that he is gracious , merciful , &c. and consequently that he is like unto them , or ( which is the same as to the point in hand ) they unto him . and the more explicit and express these divine impressions or qualities are found in them , the richer and fuller their knowledge and assureance must needs be that god is like unto them , and they unto him . as when men are eminently gracious , eminently good eminently merciful , &c. there is scarce any place left for questioning or doubting , whether we be like unto god , and so he to us , or no . now then when a man shall be rich , and reign in this confidence , that he is like unto god in righteousness , goodness , mercy , &c. how , or upon what account can he be afraid that god should condemn or destroy him ? though fear in many cases be a very irrational , sensless , and unruly passion , yet to be afraid , lest god should send the divine nature , that is , his own , into hell , is a kind of fear so broadly irrational and extravagant , that it is not incident to one of many thousands . besides , sympathize and communion in nature , disposition , and action , when apprehended and beleeved , is security in abundance to the inferiour , from receiving any prejudice or harm by the power of him that is superior . upon this ground it was , that the wicked person , concerning whom we lately heard from david that he thought god to be such an one altogether as himself , was confidently secure that god would not hurt , judg , or punish him ; which conceit of his , as a natural consequent of the said thought , david plainly intimates by making god to say in opposition to it , ( as we likewise heard ) but i will reprove thee , and set them in order before thine eys a ; meaning , that he would punish , or destroy him ; which implies , that this wretched man promised unto himself peace and freedom from punishment , from the hand of god . the apostle iohn likewise builds upon the same foundation , in reasoning ( as we lately also heard ) thus : herein is our love made perfect , that we may have boldness in the day of judgement : because as he is , so are we in this world b . but of these words formerly . this for a third reason . fourthly , this impression is strong and clear upon every mans heart , conscience , and soul , that god loveth mercy , as he doth all kind of righteousness and goodness otherwise . we shall not need ( i suppose ) to strengthen the hand of this impression from the scriptures ; which plentifully assert the love which god beareth unto all righteousness , of which mercy is ( and so the scripture maketh it ) a principal part , or member . yea and nature it self teacheth every man this further , that the more any creature excelleth in any of those worthy dispositions which he loveth , he loveth this creature proportionably the more . the righteous lord ( saith david ) loveth righteousness , and then subjoyneth ; his countenance doth behold the upright , or , those that are righteous c , meaning , that he looketh after them ▪ and beareth respects of grace unto them . so then that being a known property of love , which the apostle mentioneth amongst many others , viz. to think no evil , d [ i. e. to restrain its subject from intending hurt in one kind or other , to any person , unto whom it is born ] they who know that god loveth mercy , and merciful men ( as all men generally do ) and withal know , that themselves are merciful , which all they that are eminently merciful , cannot lightly but do , have no ground at all to fear that god intendeth evil towards , them , least of all that greatest of evils , condemnation , or the vengeance of eternal fire . this for a fourth reason . fiftly , hell is ( as it were ) the great draught , or jakes of the world , into which there is nothing to be thrown , or cast , but that which is filthy , noysom and unclean , and which would be offensive unto god , and render the state and condition of holy and good men , the sons and daughters of god , less desireable and delightsome unto them , if it were not separated from them , and cast in there . jewels or things , of value , pleasure and delight , are not wont to be thrown upon dunghils , or into noysome vaults , the use whereof only is to receive and keep that a-part , and at a distance from men , which being neerer hand , and in view , would annoy them , and render their lives uncomfortable . least of all are men wont to dispose of such things into any of these dishonourable receptacles , which are most necessary for the comfort and well being of many . now the sons and daughters of mercy , are both gods jewels , and mens : they render god himself full of beauty , pleasantness , and desirableness unto the world . let your light ( saith christ ) so shine before men , that they may see your good works , and glorifie your father which is in heaven a . as the jewes directed him that was born blind , after they had been inform'd that christ had opened his eyes , though upon a wrong and wicked pretence : give god the praise , we know that this man is a sinner b ; so we knowing that men generally being left unto themselves , and led by the spirit of the flesh , and of the world , are sinners , are covetous , unmerciful , heard-hearted , &c. when we see the pleasant and lovely works of mercy and goodness putting forth themselves plentifully in them , we cannot , quitting our selves like men , but acknowledge god to be the author and father of these works in them , and consequently to be most gracious , lovely , and desireable himself . the holy ghost takes notice that the multitude wondred when they saw the dumb to speak , the maimed to be whole , the lame to walk , and the blind to see : and that upon this , they glorified the god of israel ; as knowing and considering , that it must needs be he , who by his grace and power , had made this happy change in the sad conditions of these miserable men . but when men shall see of the stones of the earth children raised up unto abraham , and wildernesses turned into rivers , and dry and barren grounds into water-springs ; i mean , when they shall see men and women , who sometimes were , or atleast were in danger of being , as empty vines bringing forth fruit onely to themselves ; great self-lovers , self seekers , hard of bowels , eaten up with the zeal of this present world , regardless of the sorrows , miseries , necessities , extremities of others , &c. when men ( i say ) shall see such persons as these to be transformed and renewed in the frame of their hearts , and spirit of their minds , as that now they are full of mercy , tender-hearted , of earning bowels , fruitful in good works , travailing in birth with the peace , comfort , joy of their generation , and of all round about them , these being matters of far greater dignation from god , then the other , and not resolveable into any other author or cause , but himself , cannot in reason , but turn to a richer account in glory unto him from men , then those things , for which we heard that the multitude glorified the god of israel . thus then we see how merciful men are gods iewels , commending and setting him forth with beauty and pleasantness of glory unto the world . in this respect there can be no ground of fear that he should cast them amongst the retryment and filth of the world , into the great sink , or common sewer of hell . again , the persons we speak of , the generation of the merciful , are so far from being any offence upon the holy mountain of the lord , or ( indeed ) upon any mountain of the world , that they are desireable and pleasant in the eyes of all flesh , they are the deliciae generis humani , the delight and darlings of mankind . the common-wealth of the israel of god rejoiceth greatly over them , and cannot flourish , or well stand without them . so that there is not the least cause of the least jealousie or fear unto any of these , that their casting into hel would be any gratification or accommodation unto the saints , but rather as a sword passing through their soul , or a grievous dismembring of their body . thus security from the wrath which is to come , compasseth the generation of the merciful on every side . sixtly , to the friends of god , and those who stand close to him in those exigencies or cases of necessity ( as they may be called ) unto which he hath voluntarily , and according to the prescript of his own wisdom , exposed himself in the world , there is no occasion of fear to be condemned by him , but all grounds of the greatest security in this kind that can be desired . though men of degenerous and ignoble spirits , who are servile to unworthy ends , may sometimes sacrifice their best friends , yea even those , whom they know to be such , upon the service of some dishonourable project or design ; yet the common light of reason and conscience in men , abhors to conceive or suspect any such thing in god , in whom all things are most excellent and desireable , and no shadow of the least imperfection , or unworthiness in him ; who moreover , as the scripture informeth us concerning him , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , cannot be tempted of evil a ; all his ends are most honourable and just , nor do any of them require of him the least unworthy action , much less the ruin and destruction of his friends , for their accomplishment . now that persons mercifully disposed , and such who ( in davids language ) consider the poor and needy , are the friends of god , and stand by his interest , the interest of his glory , in the world , the scripture it self witnesseth and acknowledgeth , in saying , he that hath mercy upon the poor , lendeth unto the lord , and that which he hath given , will he pay him again b . how , or in what respect , doth he that giveth unto the poor , lend unto god ? the reason of the assertion is ( doubtless ) this : god every where claims to himself the great honour of being the sovereign administrator of humane affairs , and governour of the world : and he is generally by men , acknowledged so to be . now as he is the supream ruler and governor of the world , the care of the poor and needy , being members of the world , and if they be godly and vertuous , very considerable and worthy members hereof , lieth upon his hand , as well as , if not much more then , the care of other persons . yea himself very frequently engageth himself by word and promise , to take special care of the poor and helpless , and that he will be mindful of them , and provide for them . in both respects when the poor are neglected , and exposed to extremities , the honour and equitableness of his government of the world , together with the truth of his word and promise , are in danger of being called into question , at least by his enemies , and those that are less acquainted with his methods and ways . so that they who charge themselves and their consciences with looking after the poor , and shall minister unto their wants and necessities , as they are able , and have opportunity to do , herein justifie and vindicate the government of the world in the hand of god , together with the truth of his declarations made in the behalf of the poor , from , and against all imputations and aspersions that are , or might be ; cast upon them , upon the account of a deficiencie in this kind , and in case the poor should be wholly unregarded . yea , whereas the great god hath ( as it were ) pawned unto the world , those inestimable jewels , the honour of his righteousness , and of his truth , that the poor of the earth , shal not be forsaken or left desolate , but remembred in his providential dispensations in the world , they who shal shew them kindness , and be as nursing fathers unto them , what do they else but lend unto the lord , for the redeeming of his pawns , and to prevent the rejoycing of his enemy , the world , over the forfeiture of them ? whereas they who shut up the bowels of their compassion against the indigent and needy , and suffer them to faint and sink under the burthen of their poverty , whilst they have in their hand the good things of this world wherewith to relieve them , do what in them lyeth , expose the righteousness and truth , and faithfulness of god in the government of the world , unto reproach and shame . hence it is , that the holy ghost speaking by the apostle john , imputeth the heard-heartedness of men towards the poor , not so much to a defect or want of love in them towards the poor themselves , as towards god , who is more concerned ( as he is capale of concernments in one kind or other ) in the relief and non-relief then themselves . but whosoever hath this worlds good , and brother have need , and shutteth up his bowels of compassion seeth his from him , how dwelleth the love of god in him a ? by the way it may be some comfort and relief of spirit unto the poor , when they are neglected by men , that they are herein but fellow-sufferers with god himself . this for a sixth reason . seventhly ( and lastly ) amongst christians , and those that are trained up in the knowledge of the scriptures , there is this reason beyond all the rest , why men and women signally gracious and merciful , cannot lightly be troubled with any servile fears of judgement or condemnation , viz. that god hath poured out himself so abundantly above measure in his word , in high approbations of this grace and the exercise of it , and especially in promises of all sorts , great and precious in every kind made unto it , as if he judged , both the world that now is , with all that is desireable in it , and the world also that is to come with all the glory and great things thereof , consideration or reward little enough for those that shall honour him , and his gospel , like themselves , with the exercise of it . we shall not need to instance in particulars . the firmament of heaven is not fuller of stars then the scripture is of divine promises and engagements unto those that shall cast their bread upon the waters , and shew themselves the natural sons and daughters of mercy : give ( saith our saviour ) and it shall be given unto you , good measure pressed down , and shaken together , and running over , shall they [ not men ] give into your bosom a . when actions are ascribed to un-named and ( as it were ) to invisible agents ( which is sometimes done in the scripture , as luk. . . . luk. . . and elsewhere ) it seems to imply some special hand of god , or somewhat more then ordinary , in their performance . so when it is here said {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , they shall give the measure here expressed into your bosom , the meaning may well be , that god himself will interpose with extraordinary zeal to make the reward of men and women , that shall be large hearted and open handed unto the poor , rich and full above measure . i forbear to insist upon any more promises of like import , because they are of such frequent occurrencie in the scriptures . you may please at your leisure to consider these places ( with their fellows ) isai. . , , , , , , . eccles. . , . psal. . , , . psal. . , , , , , . prov. . . mat. . . luk. . . luk. . . cor. . . this for the seventh and last reason of the doctrine . proceed we now to the use and application of it . here we shall find it serviceable ▪ unto us upon three several accounts . . it will yeild us matter of instruction . . of reproof . . ( and lastly ) of exhortation . first , for instruction ; if men full of goodness and mercy cannot ( lightly ) but enjoy themselves in an heavenly security from the wrath of god , which hangs over the head of the world , learn we from hence , that then there is a course to be taken , by which men and women may be built up in a stable , steady , and well grounded assurance of salvation : there is a stone to be turned , and this not very heavy neither , under which the inestimable jewel of an heavenly security lyeth hid , and may be found , a security ▪ i mean , that a man shall be able to stand before that great judge in that his day , and not fall , or be condemned with the world . by the coldness , indifferencie , and dead-heartedness of the generality of men and women , in looking after such a state and enjoyment as this , a man would think that it were like the world , which some men fancie to be in the moon , yet find few or none that will trouble themselves to look after it , partly because , they know not whether there be such a world , or no , partly because in case there be , they know not how to come at it , or how to interess themselves in any the good things of it . in like manner the far greater part of men look upon a wel grounded assurance of salvation . . as a thing of a questionable and uncertain being . . as a thing out of their reach , in case the being of it should be supposed : and what in one of these respects , and what in the other , all thoughts of seeking after it are as far from them , as the east is from the west , and the heavens from the earth . but the doctrine delivered , according to the scriptures hath assured us , both that there is a rejoycing against judgement , and , that mercy in her exaltation will invest men in the possession . secondly , from the tenor and import of the same doctrine , take we further knowledge what the reason is , and how it cometh to pass that the generality of professors amongst us , fall so frequently into the company of jim and ojim , converse so much with dark and doleful thoughts and fearful apprehensions of death , and of the judgement to come : why their comforts in god and in christ are so weak ▪ and faint , that they do them little service in an evil day , are not able to balance an ordinary tryal . alas , in all this they bear the burthen and shame of their own folly , of their great unfaithfulness unto god and men , and their own souls . they are strait-hearted , and closehanded : this is the root of all the bitterness . as horses , and some other creatures , never thrive , never are in good plight or likeing , whilst they are hide-bound , which is a disease incident to them : so when men or women are heart-bound ( a spiritual disease , or distemper very incident to professors , and especially to those that are rich amongst them ) this keeps them from thriving spiritually ; this is a disease under which their souls cannot prosper . their covetousness will not suffer them to feast their consciences : they sell their peace to purchase the ignoble office of being jaylors , or prison-keepers , to a little silver . they give by the peny , insteed of giving by the pound , to make any earnings , any considerable return of their christian profession . they who in all their abundance can find nothing , or nothing considerable , to cast into the treasury of gods glory , are not like to find any thing considerable cast by god out of the unsearchable riches of his grace and bounty , into the treasury of their peace . when the king of israel , with his bowe and arrows smote but thrice upon the ground , then ceasing , the story saith , that the man of god was wroth with him , and said , thou shouldest have smitten five or six times : thou hadst then smitten syria till thou hadst consumed it , whereas now thou shalt smite syria but thrice a . in like manner , many professors deprive themselves of that perfect victory and conquest over their fears and doubtings , which is so desirable , and withal might be obtained , by giving portions only to one , or two , when as the scriptures , and god speaking here , requireth them to give portions unto seven , and also unto eight b . it is the liberal soul that shall be made fat c , that shall be enriched and made to shine , with comfort and peace ; the sparing and penurious soul consulteth leaness and languishing unto it self . thirdly , observe we yet further from the doctrine ( by way of instruction ) a worthy consideration , or mean● , for the cure of that unseemly distemper ( we may not unfitly call it a spiritual megrum ) so epidemical and rife amongst professors in these days , which disposeth them to turn round , or ( in the apostles phrase ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to be carried about with every putt of doctrine ; to run from one form , or way of worshipping god , unto another ; and from this again , to another ▪ and from this also , to another beyond it , and no●…●…ake any long stand or stay anywhere , until they have compassed a round the whole encyclopedie or circuit of all ways , and forms , and doctrines , and at last ( haply ) arrive at the same point from whence they set out at first : for this properly , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to be carried round , or round about . now the reason of this desultory humour and practise is commonly pretended to be a dis-satisafction in conscience , about the justifiableness or lawfulness of that way , or truth of those doctrines , or opinions , which are deserted by men , together with a conviction of goodness and truth in that new way , and doctrine , unto which they remove . whereas the true reason ( for the most part at least ) of such removals , is the negligent , un-christian , and unworthy deportment of men and women , under those forms and tenents , which they formerly professed , or a non-improvement of those opportunities and means for their edification , comfort , and peace , which these forms and tenents afforded unto them . many professors in this case , do like those , who not thriving in their callings through idleness , improvidence , or ill-husbandry in one kind or other , charge all the blame upon their callings , as if these were ill-conditioned , and devoured their followers ; pretending that had they been trained up unto , or followed , other callings , they might have thriven , and lived of themselves as well as others . i do not speak this as if a christian profession might not both with more acceptation in the sight of god , and with more advantage for the edification and comfort of christians themselves , be managed in one way , then in another ; or consequently , as if there might not be in many cases a v●●● worthy and commendable ground ( yea possibly more then one ) for men and women , to pass from under one form unto another , and so to die in their judgement to one opinion or tenent , that they may live unto another . but that which the present branch of instruction holdeth forth unto you , is , that the true reason why professors vary and shift their forms , and tenents , so frequently , and so dishonourably , both unto the gospel and themselves , as they do , is , their barren and unfruitful conversings under them . for by reason hereof they gather little comfort or peace from , or under , them ( no form , or opinion whatsoever , how regular or true soever , being able , without a conscientious and due improvement of them , to enrich or bless any mans soul ) and not finding their souls to prosper under them , they grow into a discontent at them , and bethink themselves of some other , which they conceit and hope , ( though alass ! very groundlesly ) will upon the same terms , and without any more care , better befriend them in their spiritual estates , and commend them more highly unto god . whereas the truth is , that as on the one hand , there is scarce any form , so much beside the rule , nor any doctrine or tenent so forlorn and truthless , but that the evil and disadvantage of them , as to the sound peace of conscience in the main , may be reprised by a worthy and fruitfull conversation ; so on the other hand , there is no form or opinion , so conform to the scriptures , or rich in truth , but that an empty and fruitless conversation under them , will in time render them unto men as vessels wherein there is no pleasure , yea , and make them the disdain and contempt of the soul . mercy , under any form of christian discipline or worship , under any tenents in religion , will rejo●ce against judgement : and where the conscience enjoys it self upon these terms , is blest with such a priviledge as this , there will be no disposition towards ▪ a change , but only upon grounds and motives very weighty and pregnant indeed . fourthly , take we yet further knowledge from the doctrine ( by way of instruction ) how and by what means , all , or the greatest part of , the ataxies , disorders , and male-deportments of men in the world , might be prevented , and so the condition of humane affairs reduced unto terms of a thousand times more comfort and peace to the inhabitants of the earth , then now it standeth at , or is like for the future , to be reduced unto in any other way ; unless it be by an high hand of heaven , and by turning this present world into that which is to come . mercy exalted by the generality of men , would bring this great , this so unspeakably desirable a thing to pass , and this by filling their hearts and consciences with joy and peace . for the root of all the bitterness that is tasted in the lives and conversations of men by reason of the great unworthiness and wickedness , that ruleth in them , is , the want of such company in their heart and soul , which would highly satisfie and content them . now there is no such company to take , please , and fill the hearts and souls of men , as the native fruits , the genuine and clear results of such mercy , as the doctrine commendeth . which ( as the doctrine likewise importeth ) are peace of conscience towards god , and well-grounded exultations in the soul , against judgement , and fears of condemnation . what is it that occasioneth , or secretly tempteth men to break out into any way of sin or wickedness whatsoever ? ●●…an it be any thing else , but only want of satisfaction ▪ and desired contentment at home ? the soul that is full ( saith solomon ) loatheth [ or as the original hath it , treadeth under foot , i. neglecteth , or despiseth ] an honey-combe a . and job demandeth : doth the wilde ass bray when he hath grass ? or loweth the ox over his fodder b ? when the heart of a man is full of the peace of god , and reigns in an heavenly security , the honey-combe of sin , whether issuing the sweetness of pleasure , or of profit , or of the greatness of this world , becomes but a superfluity and lothsome impertinency to the soul . nor would men complain of god unto the divel , as being hard and strait handed towards them ( as all they , who seek to ease , or better their condition by sinning , do ) if he did answer the joy of their hearts : which most assuredly he would do , were they merciful as he is merciful , or delighted in mercy , as he delighteth . saul did not enquire after a familiar spirit , until god refused to answer him , either by dreams , or by urim , or by prophets c ; and ( questionless ) he would still have answered him in one or other of these ways , and so have kept him from the temptation of being beholding unto the divel , had not saul by his disobedience and great unworthiness destroyed his own capacity of such a grace and favour from him . nor would god suffer the soul of any person , man or woman , to be so barren and empty of spiritual provision and accommodations , as to need the benevolence of sathan , or any contribution whatsoever from sin , were their hearts and their hands jointly exercised with mercy , as he hath commanded them . the pleasures and profits and all the advantages of sin are onely sweet to necessitous souls , drunkenness , uncleanness , covetousness , oppression , deceit , pride , anger impatiency , with the rest of the troublers of the world , and disturbers of the peace and comforts of men , would all hide their faces in the dust , and not be once named amongst men , did mercy exercise that soveraignty and command over the hearts and consciences of men , which of right appertain unto her . fifthly ( and lastly for instruction ) observe wee by the light of the doctrine delivered , the strange and uncouth folly , yea madnesse , of a generation of men in the world , who notwithstanding please themselves in their way , as if they were the first born sons of wisdome and sound understanding . the persons of the character now mentioned and meant , are the great layers up of treasure for themselveson earth , men that have silver and gold , heap upon heaps , and desire to heap up still , that have joined house to house and field to field , and are intent upon joyning still , forgetting in the mean time to offer the sacrifices , wherewith god ( as the apostle saith ) is so well pleased to distribute and communicate unto those that stand in need , and shutting up their compassion from their brethren , who are destitute of dayly food , as if they were afraid , that if these were at any time left open , their great estates would presently run out by them , and return unto them no more . whereas the truth is , that did rich men give a christian vent and breathing that way to their great and unweldy estates it were the most prudential and promising way under heaven to keep them from consumptions , and to make them long-liv'd even to many generations . there is a sore evil ( saith the wise man ) which i have seen under the sun , viz. riches kept for [ or by ] the owners thereof to their hurt . a yea most certain it is , that there is no great estate or wealth whatsoever , but if it be kept too close and too intire , will in the end be found to have been kept to the great hurt , and invaluable damage of the owner . and whereas it is an excellent and high strein of wisdome for men , to make themselves such friends of the mammon of unrighteousnesse , who , when they fail here , may , and will , receive them into everlasting habitations ; b so is it on the other hand the exaltation of folly , for men to make ( as it were ) of the same material , such enemies , whose displeasure may cause them both to fail the sooner here , and wil most certainly exclude them out of those everlasting habitations of rest , and joy , and peace , into which otherwise they might , and should , have been received . for men shall be sent to hell , as well for the want of charity , and of mercy , as for the want of justice ; neither is it much material whether a man or woman be sent thither upon the one account , or the other . we have now done with the use of instruction . the doctrine is further profitable unto us for reproof . for if mercy ( in the sence and upon the terms declared ) hath this priviledge from god , to make all his true-born children , all her sons and daughters , free from fear of wrath and condemnation , then are all such most worthy reproof , and this with much severity , who do not lift up their hearts unto her service , and stretch forth their hands to that work which she commendeth unto all men , for their unspeakable benefit , and advancement unto an estate of such happinesse and peace . to the far greatest part of men and women in the world , mercy is little lesse then a mystery ; their soul never entred into the secret of it , and they that are christianly exercised in the wayes thereof , may say unto them , we have meat to eat which you know not of : we live like kings and princes upon the sacrifices , which we have offered of our substance unto god , in ministring to the necessities of the poor , in feeding the hungry , in cloathing the naked , &c. whereas you are in danger of being eaten up and consumed with cares and fears , and sad expectations , under all that abundance which you possesse . with that which we give , we purchase a setled , constant and daily revenue of heavenly comfort and peace , and so injoy that which wee have parted with , upon far better terms then wee could have possessed it . you on the contrary by shutting up your compassions from the importunate cries of the miseries and extremities of the needy , cast in your whole estates into the divels treasury , and consult to your selves both the present torment of the fear , and the future torment it self , of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire . the truth is , that men hard of bowels , and who have abundantly in their hand , but want in their heart , wherewith to strengthen the hand of the poor , may well be compared to horse and mule , which ( as david saith ) have no understanding . for what can argue a greater , a sadder defect in reason , judgement , and understanding , then for men and women to purchase shame , and sorrow , and fear , and ( in the end ) misery without end , with that price , which is put into their hand for their high advancement in joy , and peace , and blessednesse for evermore ? what our savior demandeth concerning the gaining of the whole world , may upon the same sad and serious account be demanded , concerning the possessing or keeping it . for what is a man profited if he shall possesse and keep to himself , whilest he lives , the whole world , and lose his own soul . a and this is considerable , that a desire or indeavour to gain the whole world , is not more threatning ( nor indeed so much altogether ) of the losse of the soul , especially of the losse of it upon the hardest and most grievous terms of losing it , as the hoarding and keeping of it to a mans self by unmercifulnesse , when he hath gained it . i no where read , that he that desireth or attempteth to gain the whole world shal lose his soul , much lesse that he shall lose it with such a losse , which shall be more intolerable then the ordinary losing of souls will be unto men . but i read as much concerning him , that shal keep the world , or a part of it onely , to himself , as both these amount unto , in the words immediately before my text . but he shal have judgement without mercy , who hath shewed no mercy . as he that with-holdeth corn , not he that hath corn , nor he that taketh the best , the most provident and industrious course he can , to fill his barns and granaries with corn , is the man whom the people will curse . b so neither are they that have silver and gold , and the good things of this world in the greatest abundance , nor they whose hand is diligent to make them rich , the persons to whom christ will say at the great day , depart from me , ye cursed into everlasting fire ; c but they will be found the children of this most heavy and insupportable curse , who shall with-hold their riches , and neither give meat unto christ , when he is an hungry in his members , nor drink when he is thirsty , nor cloathing when he is naked ; nor minister unto him according to the necessities of his saints and servants , in every kind . cruel , hard-hearted and unmerciful men will be hurl'd with greater indignation by the irresistable hand of god into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore , then any other kind of sinner whatsoever . he who hath shewed no mercy , is nominated as the onely kinde of sinner , that shal have judgment without mercy ; unmerciful men wil be known from amongst al the children of wrath , that for all other kinds of wickednesses & abhominations , shal be cast together wth them into hel , by the loudness of their roarings through the extremity of the torments , wth they are like to indure above them all , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i am grievously tormented ( cries out the unmerciful wretch , who had neglected poor lazarus ) in this flame . and the lord tels those unmerciful ones that shal appear at his left hand in the day of judgement that they shall be beaten with those very rods , which the severe hand of god prepared for the devils back , and for the backs of his angels . depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire , prepar'd for the divel and his angels , mat. . . this for reproof . the doctrine ( is in the third and last place ) profitable likewise for exhortation . for if mercy in the sence and upon the terms declared , bee a shield of protection to the souls and consciences of men , greatly delighting in her waies against the dread and terrour of the great day , and the final judgement and doom that shal then be passed and given upon all flesh , upon what ground or motive more pregnant and provoking then this , can men or women be exhorted unto that great christian exercise , i mean , works of mercy ? who upon such an account , wil not be willing , yea and more then willing , rejoycingly , triumphantly willing , to cast his bread upon the waters , to give portions unto seven , and also unto eight , to feed the hungry , to cloath the naked , to visit the sick and those that are in prison , to receive strangers , to comfort the afflicted , to forgive injuries and wrongs ; in a word , to fill the sphere of his activity with the lovely fruits of goodnesse and mercy in every kind ? the chief captain of the garison at jerusalem , spoken of acts . . made account that he had done prudently enough in purchasing the roman freedome , though ( as himself confessed ) it cost him a great summe of money . alas ! the immunities of a citizen of rome , were a dear bargain at the price of two farthings , in comparison of that glorious immunity , that sacred priviledge and freedome of which the doctrine speaketh , a freedome from the fear of death , and of the day of judgement ( the very hearing whereof maketh both the ears of the world to tremble . ) yea though this heavenly prerogative and freedome should be purchased at the high rate of the poor widdows bounty , who cast in {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , her whole livelihood or subsistence into the treasury of god . to be so gloriously strengthened in the inner man , that a man or woman may ( in that high expression of job ) go near unto god as a prince , a not to be afraid when he shall hear the sound of the last trump , summoning the quick and the dead unto judgement , nor at the appearance of the judge sitting upon his white throne , nor at the opening of the books , by which all shal be judged , to injoy ( i say ) a mans self in peace , and with an untroubled , and undanted spirit , under all these high astonishing transactions and doings , is a priviledge so transcendently great and sacred , that all the silver and gold under heaven , and all the precious things of the earth with them , are but as drosse and dung , yea lesse then nothing in comparison thereof . yet shal all the true-born sons and daughters of mercy , be sed with the heritage of all this glory , all shal be light , and life , and joy , and peace , with them , when the faces of all those , who have not strengthened the hand of the poor shal gather blacknesse , and the souls of those who have hid themselves from their own flesh , shall dwel among lyons , among devouring fears , and overwhelmings of dismal dreads and terrours without end . therefore now quit your selves like men , and despise not the word of exhortation that hath now been directed unto you : you see that in hearkning to it there is great reward . be merciful , as your heavenly father is mercifull ; so shal no fear of judgement have dominion over you to torment you . but besides this great motive held forth both in the text and doctrine , the great duty of mercy , unto which you have been exhorted , might be further recommended unto you by many others . nor is there ( i suppose ) any one duty within the whole compass of christianity , wherein the conscience of a man may be invested with a greater retinue of arguments and motives , and these of rich and high import , then this of mercy . bee pleased onely to taste a few of them . . if you shall ( with god ) delight in mercy , you shall not be delivered and freed from the fear onely , but from the stroke it self , from the dreadful and all con●ounding stroke of judgement . mercy will not put you into a fools paradice of security and fearlessnesse of judgement , leaving you in the mean time in a condition obnoxious unto judgement , but that security in this kind , which shal be given unto you , shal stand by you , and be made good unto you in the evil day . there is no condemnation unto the children of mercy . with the mercifull ( saith david unto god ) thou wilt shew thy self mercifull , a if ye forgive me their trespasses , your heavenly father will also forgive you , b mercy is divinely inspired to prophesie good unto her children ; therefore ( doubtless ) god will not suffer the words of her prophesie to fall to the ground . . unto mercy is this grace also given by god , even to deliver her friends and disciples from temporal judgements and evils , as well as from eternal . blessed is he that considereth the poor , the lord will deliver him in the time of trouble . the lord will preserve him , and keep him alive , &c. c so again , give a portion to seven , and also to eight , for thou knowest not what evil shall be on the earth d , meaning , that what evil or judgement soever shal come upon the place , or people , amongst whom a man liveth , they are likest to find favour and protection from god , whose hand hath been upon all occasions stretched forth in works of mercy unto those that stood in need . . as if it were a smal thing with god onely to exempt the children of mercy from perishing in the condemnation of this world ; he speaketh unto them of the glory and great things of the world to come , and this upon the account of their mercy . then shall the king say unto them on his right hand , come ye blessed of my father , inherit the kingdome prepared for you from the beginning of the world . for , i was an hungred , and ye gave me meat ; i was thirsty , and ye gave mee drink ; i was a stranger , and ye took me in naked and ye cloathed me ; i was sick , and ye visited me , &c. a so the apostle to timothy , charge them that are rich in this world , that they be not high-minded nor trust in uncertain riches , but in the living god , who giveth us richly all things to injoy , that they do good , that they be rich in good works , ready to distribute , willing to communicate , laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come , that they may l●y hold on eternal life . b if rich men wil not simply do good , but be rich in good works , ( i. e. abound in doing good ) and this out of a propenseness and readiness of heart and soul unto these works , not grudgingly , or as of necessity ( as the apostle speaks in a like case ) hereby they shal take a most secure and safe course , though it be secret , and makes little shew in the eyes of men , [ as treasures and foundations , are both secret and safe , at least as safe as men can make them ] to possess themselves of eternal life . . mercy hath not onely the promises of the great things of the world to come , but of the good things of this life also ( as wel as of deliverance from the evil ) wherein as well the children also and posterity of mercifull men , as themselves , are comprehended . is not this the fast that i have chosen to loose the bands of ▪ wickedness , to undo the heavy burthens , and to let the oppressed go free , and that ye break every yoke ? is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry , and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thine house ? when thou seest the naked , that thou cover him , and that thou hide not thy self from thine own flesh ? then shall thy light break forth as the morning [ i , e. as the chearful brightnesse of the morning succeeds of course , and uncomfortable darknesse of the night , so shal the prosperity , according to the standing law of my righteous providence , forthwith succeed , and come in place of thy present afflicted and calamitous condition , as it followeth ] and thine health shall spring forth speedily ; as if hee should say , whereas at present thy whole head is sick , and thy whole heart faint , and from the sole of the foot , even unto the head , there is no soundness in thee , but wounds & bruises , & putrifying sores , b so that in respect of thy estate in this world , thou art like to a man most dangerously sick , in the most vital parts , and withal most dangerously wounded , yea and bruised , and besides al this , ful of noisome ulcers & sores , of whose recovery and health under al these maladies , there is very little , or no hope , yet shalt thou very suddenly , and above all expectation be restored unto thy former honour , strength and dignity , and all the nations round about thee , shall say , the lord hath done great things for thee . soon after to like purpose , if thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke , the putting forth of the finger , and speaking vanity ; and if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry , and satisfie the afflicted soul , then shall thy light arise in obscurity , and thy darknesse be as the noon day ; and the lord shall guide thee continually , and satisfie thy soul in drought , and make fat thy bones , and thou shalt be like a watered garden , and like a spring of water , whose waters fail not . and they shall be of thee that shall build the old wast places , thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations , &c. c he that shal diligently consider these promises ( with very many others of the same gracious confederacy with them , which might readily be added ) and is able withall to bear himself with confidence upon the truth , and faithfulnesse , and power of god , for the performance of them , cannot but conclude heart , and soul , and all that is within him , that there is no counsel , project , or course , both for making his own face , and the face also of his posterity , to shine in the world , to be compared with a large heart , and open hand , with drawing out his soul freely unto those that stand in need , upon all occasions . there are no promises of this worlds felicities and enjoyments in every kind , to be found in all the scriptures , made unto any other vein , or part of obedience unto god , which run so high , or engage the truth and power of god so deeply , as those which are the heritage of the families of mercy , and stand charged with all earthly supplies , comforts , and accommodations , unto them and their posterities , who shall minister with a liberal hand unto the necessities of the poor , still taking off their sackcloth , and girding them with joy and gladness . to be jealous that a frequent offering of those sacrifices , wherewith god is so well pleased ( heb. . . ) will diminish any mans flocks , or make any breach upon his worldly estate , or trench upon the prosperity of his house and children after him , is but a bold affront put upon the truth and faithfulness of god , by the ill-nurtur'd and base-bred hearts of covetous , ignorant , and foolish men . hath not the husbandman as much reason to fear , that his grass and corn will parch and dry away , by the rain of heaven ever and anon falling on them ? peruse ( at your leisure ) ps. . throughout . prov. . . eccles. . , , &c. psal . , , . luke . . cor. . . , , &c. ( with many like . ) . men and women that are rich in this world , cannot convert , or dispose of their abundance in any other way , but to their incomparable loss and disadvantage . they do but play at small game ( as our english proverb is ) with great estates , who either hoard up the revenues of them , or make sacrifices of them unto their lusts in one kind or other , as either in building sumptuously , in faring deliciously , in apparelling gorgeously , in gaming lavishly , in abusing themselves wantonly : or ( or in a word ) by gratifying the flesh inordinately in what way soever . all the considerable improvement that can be made of silver and gold , and great possessions , is by spreading them upon the backs of the naked , and burying them in the bowels of the hungry , by ransoming the captive , relieving the oppressed ▪ by making temporal provisions for the bodies , and spiritual for the souls of men . by such a contrivement of wealth as this , men may become great in the sight of god , angels , and men : of uncertain riches , may make an enduring substance ; of that which is not , that which is and which ever wil be to the days of eternity . whereas let men consult with the greatest spirit of the wisdom of this world , and study , and streyn their reasons , wits , understandings to devise it in any other way , it will turn to little or no account at all , but of sorrow and shameand misery without end . for riches are given unto men much upon the like terms with those , on which christ himself is given unto them . behold ( said simeon ) this child is set for the fall , and rising again of many in israel a . so are the great things of this world dispensed and disposed of by god , that in the issue and event they will be the shining of the face , and lifting up the head unto some , viz. unto those that shall sanctifie the lump , by offering a first fruits , according to the royal law of the gospel , unto god ; and again , the confusion of the face , and the hanging down of the head , and double measure of the wrath of god in the vengeance of eternal fire , unto others , viz. unto all those , that shall serve their-own humours and lusts with them , with the neglect of that high and holy commandment , which god hath given them to do otherwise . . ( and lastly ) rich men are but god's feoffees in trust in behalf of the poor , of all that surplusage and redundance that is found in their estates ; nor have they any right or title unto it before him ; or ( as it is usually expressed ) in foro conscientiae , but only unto the disposition of it , and this unto the right owners , the poor , and according to those instructions given by him in the gospel on that behalf . nor is it reasonable , or consistent with that reverence and honour which we owe to the wisdom ▪ and goodness of god , to conceive or think , that he gives at any time , or unto any person , a double , zrable , a sevenfold , tenfold , twenty-fold proportion in wealth , above the line of competency , & what comfortably , and with all christian conveniences , supports other men charged with the same proportion of expense with them , to bestow upon their lusts in one kind or other ( whether of sensuality , or of covetous , or ambitious hoarding , upon the account of posterity ) or for any other end or purpose whatsoever , save only for the strengthning of the hand of the poor , and the buying ( as it were ) of handkerchiefs to wipe away tears from their eyes . and were rich men as considerate and tender in their ways , as would be their honour and safety to be , it could not lightly but be a question of conscience unto them , whether god would have cast the one half of the abundance upon them , which now they possess , but for the poors sake . for it is within the compass of the light of nature to conceive , yea , and to conclude , that god abounds not in things superfluous , perstuous ▪ as he is not deficient in things necessary . so that the superfluity we speak of in mens estates , in the best and truest construction of the providence of god disposing it unto them , appertaineth of right unto those that want , and stand in need , and only a right of a regular disposition of it unto themselves . which right of disposition ( to mention this by the way is ( i confess ) a far higher favour from god , and more valuable , then the right of receiving it vested by him in the poor . the scripture from place to place speaketh according to the tenour of these things , investing the poor and needy with a right and title to the rich mans superfluities , and declaring the acts of mercy ( usually so called ) in these men , are in true consideration , but acts of justice , or of righteousness . with-hold not good ( saith solomon from those to whom it is due , or ( according to the former translation , better agreeing here with the hebrew ( as the new translators themselves acknowledge in the margent ) from the owners thereof . junius and tremellius translate , ab iis qui opus habent , i. e. from those that have need ; and gloss the original expression thus ; cujus [ nimirum cohibiti boni ] dominum illum efficit necessitate , & te dispensatorem , deus ▪ i. e. of that good which thou with-holdest , or keepest back , god by his necessity maketh him the master , or owner , and thee the steward , or dispenser . and upon this account it is ( as these translators likewise give notice , upon the place now touched ) that mens alms or works of mercy , are in scripture called , their justice , or their righteousness a . compare psal. . . with cor. . , . he hath dispersed , he hath given unto the poor : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} his righteousnesse remaineth for ever . and so vers. . multiply your seed , and increase the fruits of your righteousnesse . so matth. . . where we read , take heed you do not your alm● before men , &c. the best greek copies , instead of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} alms , read , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , justice ; and beza rendreth it accordingly ; attendite ne justitiam vestram excerceatis , &c. yea and calvin acknowledgeth this reading . thus also deut. . . moses from god promiseth or declareth , that the delivering back of the poor mans pledge before the sun goeth down , shall be righteousnesse unto him that shall thus deliver it , before the lord ; meaning , that it should be accepted by god as an act of mercy unto the poor . so then , rich men , and they who have this worlds goods , and yet shall shut up their compassions against their brother that standeth in need , are not only uncharitable and unmerciful , but unjust also , companions of thieves , and these of the worst kind , sacrilegiously with-holding that which god himself hath signally consecrated and set apart for the use and comfort of the poor and indigent of the world . and since according to our common saying , the receiver is as bad as the thief , it is no marvel , that the children and posterity of so many great rich men , receiving estates so desperately incumbred and entangled with that which of right belonged unto other men , and these of that sort of men , whom of all others it is most dangerous to injure or affront ( i mean , the poor , whose protector , and avenger , god hath solemnly declared himself from heaven ) it is no marvel ( i say ) that the inheritors of such ill-conditioned estates , should reap so little comfort of them , whilest they keep them , and should so frequently be shaken out of them before they die . let this consideration then be laid to heart with the former , to break that iron sinew of unmercifulness , which is found in the hearts of any of us . know ye not ( saith the apostle ) that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god ? be not deceived &c. a and if god be the avenger of all such , who go beyond , and defraud their brother in any thing b , ( as the holy ghost pronounceth him to be ) and it be a most dreadful thing to fall into the hands of this avenger , let the consideration be as an alarum from heaven to awaken us throughly unto that great and important duty , whereunto we have been exhorted , to commiserate the indigencies of the poor , and to take them into part and fellowship with us in our comforts . the duty might be bound upon the consciences of men and women with many more such spiritual bands , as these : but i trust that is , even by these , bound so close and fast upon yours , that it will not break loose from them at any time . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a king. . . notes for div a e- a tim. . , . b ibid. notes for div a e- psal. . heb. . . b prov. . . c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . euripides phoenissis . haec cicero it a reddidit . si jus violandum est , regnandi gratiâ violandum est : aliis rebus pictatem c●las . difficile est satyram non scribere . juvenal . a see tim. . . prov. . . phil. . . doctrine . a mat. . , . mark . , . b eccl. . . what mercy it is , of which the text and doctrine speaks . scripture-proofs of the doctrine . a eph. . . reason . a mat. . . . b joh. . . c gal. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . a gal. . . reason . a cor. . a eph. . . . reason a psa. . a psal. . . b joh. . reason . c psal. . . d cor. . . reason . a mat. . . b joh. . . c mat. . . reason . a jam. . . b pro. . a joh. . a luk. . . instruct . . a kings . . b eccl. . . c prov. . . instruct . . d eph. . . instruct . . a pro. . . b job . . c sam. . , . a eccl. . . b luke . d vse reproof . a mat. . . b pro. . . c mat. . a job . . mic. . . motive . a ps. . . b mat. . motive . c ps. . , . d eccl. . . motive . a mat. . , , . b tim. . , , . motive . esa. . , . b esa. . , . c esa. . , ● , , . motive . a luk . . motive . a quam●brem hac beneficia in scripturis appellantur , justicia . the heathen mans observations , de male quaesitis vix gaudet tertius haeres ; an ill-gotten estate seldom comes to the third heir . but christians may observe , that de male servatis vix , &c an estate ill kept by him that got it , is commonly dispers'd and va●ished before the third heir os the race comes at it . a cor. . . b thes. . . peace protected, and discontent dis-armed. wherein the seventeen queries (with the addition of three more, postscript-wise) lately published, partly to allay the discontents of some about the late revolution of government, but more especially to guide every mans feet into the way of peace, as well his own, as the publique, are reinforced with replies unto, and animadversions upon, such answers, which some (it seems) have given unto them, to invalidate their purport and intent. together with four new queries superadded. by the author of the said seventeen queries. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) peace protected, and discontent dis-armed. wherein the seventeen queries (with the addition of three more, postscript-wise) lately published, partly to allay the discontents of some about the late revolution of government, but more especially to guide every mans feet into the way of peace, as well his own, as the publique, are reinforced with replies unto, and animadversions upon, such answers, which some (it seems) have given unto them, to invalidate their purport and intent. together with four new queries superadded. by the author of the said seventeen queries. goodwin, john, ?- . goodwin, john, ?- . , - , [ ] p. printed by i. macock, for h. cripps, and l. lloyd, and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley., london, : . "to the reader" signed: john goodwin? [sic]. a reprinting and defence of the author's: synkrētismos. annotation on thomason copy: "aprill [ye] th:". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng goodwin, john, ?- . -- synkrētismos -- early works to . great britain -- politics and government -- - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no peace protected, and discontent dis-armed.: wherein the seventeen queries (with the addition of three more, postscript-wise) lately publish goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion peace protected , and discontent dis-armed . wherein the seventeen queries ( with the addition of three more , postscript-wise ) lately published , partly to allay the discontents of some about the late revolution of government , but more especially to guide every mans feet into the way of peace , as well his own , as the publique , are reinforced with replies unto , and animadversions upon , such answers , which some ( it seems ) have given unto them , to invalidate their purport and intent . together with four new queries superadded . by the author of the said seventeen queries . every kingdom divided against it self , is brought to desolation . mat. . . the wisdom which is from above is first pure , then peaceable , gentle , and easie to be intreated . james . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; chrysost. semper enim sunt tumultuosi spiritus , qui regnum christi non bene extolli credunt , nisi aboleantur omnes terrenae potestates . calvin . ad roman . . . — non si quid turbida roma elevet , accedas . persius . london , printed by i. macock , for h. cripps , and l. lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes-head alley . . to the reader . good reader , there were a while since a few queries delivered out with the right hand unto the people of this nation , but it seems that by many they have been received with the left . it was davids complaint , that for his love , men became his adversaries , and rewarded him evil for his good a . and the apostle paul was jealous that he should be looked upon as an enemy by the galathians , for telling and teaching them the truth . yea the lord christ himself , by reason of his familiar and free converse with men , although it were in due order to the saving of their souls , yet purchased unto himself from many , the blot and imputation of being a man gluttonous , and a wine-bibber , a friend of publicans and sinners b . notwithstanding he had this to ballance his loss in this kind ; that his wisdom in such deportments of himself was justified by those , who were capable of the true nature thereof , and of the express and clear tendency in it to those worthy ends projected by it . but wisdom ( saith he ) is justified of her children . i am all thoughts made , that there is no man of a single eye , that can discern any thing in the said queries of an oblique or ignoble tendency , or which comporteth with any end , whereof such a man , who dayly expecteth to appear before the judgment seat of christ , needs to be ashamed ; or which savoureth of any thing in the author , but of a publique spirit , and christian desire to see the jerusalem of his god in the land of his pilgrimage , in peace and prosperity all his days , and in this condition to transmit it to posterity . notwithstanding some , upon consultation had with some froward and seducing oracle , have pretended to see a vision of darkness in those queries , by which they have been admonished , to pronounce this hard sentence against their author , that he is a time-server ; a worshipper of the greatness of this world . if by , time-serving , they mean , a subjecting a mans self to serve with all diligence and faithfulness the common interest of the men of the times , wherein he liveth , as well great , as small , as well high , as low , rich as poor , i plead , guilty , to the indictment : i have ( in this sence ) been a time-server of a long time , well nigh ever since i was capable of such a service . but if by , time-serving , be meant , any unchristian , or unmanlike compliance , either with the head , or tail , of this world , for any secular accommodation or interest of mine own , i can wash my hands in the laver of davids innocency , and with an erect conscience profess and say , they lay to my charge things that i know not . and herein i suppose that all those , who have fully known my principles and practise from the beginning , will be my compurgators . this i confess , that from first to last , i have stood close and fast , by the present authority for the time being , and have contended with the best of the strength of my understanding , for an universal subjection of the nation , in all things lawful , unto it . when there were two authorities conflicting , that of the late king , the other , of the parliament , in which case i judged it not meet , either to neutralize , or amphibolize , i joyned the small strength of my hand with that , which upon consideration i judged best pleadable , and withall most promissory of civil , yea and of religious happiness also unto the land . to this authority i have constantly adhered all along without the least regret , or relenting , not only in the lowest ebb thereof , when its competitress , like a stood , was ready to have overwhelmed it , but likewise under all that hard measure , and those discouraging and sad requitals , wherewith it recompenced all my service and faithfulness unto the interest of it . for as on the one hand , i still was a zealous assertor of this authority , and compelled , as far as my tongue , pen , or example had any compulsive power in them , all sorts of people in the land to submit for conscience sake unto it ; so on the other hand i was as zealously faithful in declaring and asserting the just and lawful bounds of this authority , testifying and perswading it to contain it self within its own sphere , witnessing and protesting , that if it should prove like jordan in the time of harvest , and overflow its banks , this would endanger the cutting off of the waters , and laying the channel of it dry : which thing also we all know is come to pass now some while since . and , though i love not to be too positive in matters of this nature , yet i very much incline to conceive , that one reason why god took no more pleasure in the parliament of the last sitting , was their assuming of a power notoriously incompetent to them , as viz. to make that adultery in parents , which god never made adultery : and that illegitimacy in children , which god never , made such ; yea which common reason and equity might have taught them not to be such . yea in these cases they assumed a power , which we may say ( without the least reflexion of dishonour upon god , or the straitening of his prerogative ) is incompetent unto god himself . for god cannot make things to be such , or such , without that which is essentially and formally requisite to make them such ; he cannot make a man without a reasonable soul , nor a wall white , without whiteness ; nor that to be fraud or deceit , which in the essence of it is honesty and plain dealing ; so neither that to be adultery , which is naturally and essentially an honest and lawful conjunction . if they had repealed the former law , which ( with a like inconsiderateness ) made adulteries of such marriages , which were not solemnized by the clergy ( then so called , ) and the children born in such marriages , illegitimate ; and had only provided by mulcts and penalties , or what other means they judged meet , against all clandestine and unworthy proceedings in the affair , leaving the transaction of the solemnity free for persons of any rank or quality , without making that adultery , which god and the law of nature make an honest and honourable conjunction , or that illegitimacy which these make an honest and blameless propagation , they had done well and worthily . but now by appropriating the business we speak of unto justices of peace , upon the same , or like , account , on which it was before appropriated to the clergy , is to cleave a bad knot with a wedg as bad as it ; and though , not formally or intentionally , yet constructively and consequentially , to claim a power beyond , or above , the power of god himself ; a claim , against which , it was no otherwise like , but that god himself would declare first , or last . men in places of power and authority , can hardly be sufficiently jealous over themselves , lest they conceit their power to be larger and more extensive then it is , or that in the administration and exercise of it they do not entrench upon some or other of the appropriate royalties of god . but my faithfulness in endeavoring to preserve that authority i speak of from dissolution and destruction by it self , and its own exorbitancies , was of so hard a resentment with it , that it did not only quench all remembrance and regard of all those other services , wherein i unfeignedly and with all my might sought to prevent the disturbance and annoyance of it by other men , but further kindled a spirit of unkindness , yea of frowardness , and hard ( that i say not , unjust ) proceedings , in the brest therof , against me . for upon this account i cannot but presume it was , that i was so generally frowned upon , and smitten with the tongue , by this authority ; that some of my writings ( as i was inform'd ) very narrowly escaped the double doom of the hand of the cōmon hangman , and of the fire ; that i was ( to my no small trouble ) time after time summoned before the consistory ( sirnamed , the cōmittee for plundred ministers , ) and this by the procurement , abetment , and contrivance of some of the members themselves of the authority i speak of , that here i was coarsly handled , disgracefully entreated , my accusers , though but few and less considerable , countenanced , my friends , who appeared with me , and for me , neglected ; and that at last i was compelled to drink the cup , prepared only for malignant ministers ( so called in those days , ) being not only sequestred from my living ( the best means i had for the support of my self , wife , and seven children ) but denyed the liberty so much as ●f preaching in my wonted place . nor was there , as far as my memory is able to recollect the terms and circumstances of these high proceedings against me , any ground or reason to this day given by the said committe , of that so severe a sentence awarded against me . this i verily beleeve , that from the first to the last of the sitttng of that parliament , there was no example of any minister in the land who had so constantly , and cordially , and with so much activeness in the promotion of their cause , adhered to them , as was , and is , sufficiently known ( yea and was acknowledged by some of themselves ) that i had done , and upon whom they had so little to charge otherwise , who received the like measure from their hand . i confess that after several years total sequestration ( between four and five as i remember ) the presbyterian interest somewhat damping ( i remember not now upon what revolution , or occasion ) and the person hitherto gratified with the hard measure measured unto me in my sequestration , falling under some parliamentary dislike , with much ado i was again restored to my place in colmanstreet . but ( as the saying was ) jam seges est , ubi troia fuit ; at my return i found only a piece of a skeleton or bare anatomy of those means , which at my enforced departure i left a fair and full body . the chief men upon the place , during my absence , had ( it seems ) irrevocably transferred their devotion-benevolence , together with their devotion it self in hearing , upon him , who had all that while served their turns , and his own , in my pulpit ; who , what he wan in this kind , wears to this day . so that if i should estimate the damage and loss i sustained by the hard measure of my sequestration ( without valuing the disparagement and disrepute accompanying it ) at l . i should ( i beleeve ) cut short the account by the one half . notwithstanding all these grand disobligements , and dragon-like dealings with me , yet did i not behave my self , either frowardly , or faultringly , in that covenant of loyalty and service , wherein god , and mine own judgment and conscience , had engaged me unto the men , who thus requited me . so that if i have been a time-server ( in the sence of my accusers ) i have served very hard masters , from whom i never received any thing for my work or service , but only in some such coyn , wherein paul five times received forty save one of the jews a . nor have i yet ever known , unless by theory , and hear-say , that the great men of the times , have , or have had , so much as the value of the ninth part of a farthing wherewith to reward the services of those who have served them . but i know by experience that they have had rods , yea scorpions , wherewith to chastise their servants without a cause . nor do i now write these things , either out of any effeminate or querulous disposition , or out of a desire , or expectance , that the masters of the present times should repair the breaches made upon me by their predecessors ( the masters of the times lately past ) but rather out of a desire to stop the mouth of that unworthiness , which is opened against me , as if i had thriven in the world so well by serving the times formerly , that still i meant to follow the same occupation . the truth is , that i do intend , and am resolved ( god assisting me ) to serve the present times upon the same account and terms , on which i served the former ; yea and judg my self bound in conscience , both to god , and my generation , so to do . there shall be no more wars in the land , nor bloodsheds , nor tumults , nor plunderings , nor depopulations in my days , no nor yet in the days after me , as far as i shall be able , whilest i live , by my uttermost interposures to prevent them . but as daniel , though free and willing to gratifie king belshazzar in his desire , yet spake thus unto him , let thy gifts be to thy self , and give thy rewards to another b : in like manner , i can , and shall be free and faithful to serve men in authority ( and in them , the nation ) and yet leave them at perfect liberty to dispose , as well their faces , as their places , to whom they please . i desire neither , but in order to their own better service , and the service of those , whom they are bound to serve as well as i : and if they please to deny me both , i shall serve them as well as i can without them . it may be it is a maxim of policy amongst states-men , to make use of their countenances , and opportunities of preferment , as ordinary men make use of their money , who do not bestow or lay it out upon what they have already , but upon what they want , and desire to have , and withall have reason to beleeve that they are not like to have , without it . men of ordinary discretion cannot be offended that rattles and babies should be given unto froward children , to content and keep them quiet : and it is the sence of more then one ( though i am neu●ral in the conjecture ) that the discontent and frowardness of the paul , figuratively so called , in the answer to the second query , might have been way-layed and prevented , by a rattle when time was , put into his hand . they are , or may be , good horses , and good mules , whose mouths may be , though they must be , held with bit and bridle , lest they come near thee , [ viz. with their mouths , to bite and mischief thee , as janius and tremellius gloss the place , psal. . . ] and they ( possibly ) may be none of the worst men for the use and service of a state , whose mouths must be held with golden bits and bridles from falling foul upon them . my great design in giving unto cesar that uttermost of what i know to be cesars , is , that hereby i may purchase {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , so much the better and freer standing , the more equitable liberty , to deny unto cesar , or take from him , that which i know is not his , when ever he assumes it . i have heard it from the mouth of a souldier in our late wars , as a maxim in martial discipline , pay well , and hang well . and job stopt the mouth of his discontented wife , with this demand ; what ? shall we receive good at the hand of god , and shall we not receive evil ? yea god himself by allowing the marriage bed as honourable , invests himself with so much the greater equitableness of power to judg whoremongers and adulterers with severity , heb. . . and if cesar , who ever he be , careth not to be served upon such an account , as that specified , he must wait for his relief until i be dead . for i am resolved to serve him , and yet not to serve him upon any other terms , whilest i live . but ( reader ) i have prefaced above the proportion of the discourse . i have nothing further to inform , but that a friend of mine presenting me with the sight of some brief answers ( sent unto him ) unto my queries lately published , i conceived it might be of some concernment to further satisfaction , briefly to vindicate the truth of what is constructively asserted ( for there is little or nothing asserted formally ) in them , against the allegations suggested in the said answers , which i think are as material , though brief ( at least some of them ) as can readily be made , and withall to add three or four queries more upon a new account . is it not good if peace and truth be in thy days , and mine ; who am thy friend , heart and soul in the truth , john goodwin ? from my study in colemanstreet , london . march . . peace protected , and discontent dis-armed . query i. whether doth not the apostle expresly affirm ( rom. . . ) that the powers that be [ i. whatsoever they be , and however , in respect of second means , compassed , attained , or procured by men , who stand possessed of them ] are ordained by god [ i. orderly , regularly , wisely , & righteously in respect of his providential interposure about the vestment of them , disposed of , and lodged in the persons , whosoever they be , who are the present ministers , or administrators of them ? ] or were not the highest powers in the world , when the apostle spake this , viz. that the powers that be , are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ordained of god , vested in nero , not only a monster of men ( as he is commonly termed ) in respect of his bloody cruelty , unnaturall lusts , &c. but likewise advanced to the empire , neither by the orderly way of the suffrage or election of the people , nor yet by the less disorderly way of the choyce of the roman senate , but partly by the wickedness of his mother agrippina , who caused her husband claudius to dis-inherit his own son britannicus , to make way for the adoption of her son , ( this nero ) partly by the over-ruling interposure of the cohorts and rest of the souldiery , the senate ( saith the story ) as men affrighted with amazement , not once contradicting the same ? to this query some answer ; that the powers that be are indeed ordered by god , even when these powers do give their power and strength to the beast , and make war with the lamb . yet have they been , and ought to be in their so doing , witnessed against , by those that are called , and chosen , and faithful , rev. . , . but this answer , . reacheth not the intent or purport of the query . for this querieth not about the unlawful or sinful exercise of any authoritative power ( of which only the answer speaketh , ) or whether this may not , yea and ought not , to be witnessed against by those who are called unto it ; but of the power it self vested in the supreme magistrate , considered simply as power , and as disposed unto him by god . this power ought not to be resisted , or witnessed against , by any person whatsoever ; nor can it be , either resisted , or witnessed against , but by resisting , and witnessing against , the ordinance of god . the kings of the earth , who give their power to the beast , are not to be witnessed against for being kings , nor for their accepting of kingly power ( supposing it duly cast upon them , ) but only for the male-administration of this power . yea the power of the beast himself ( whoever , or whatsoever , be meant by the beast ) whereby he now maketh war against the lamb , but might , if he pleased , employ and use for the lamb , is not to be witnessed against by any man , as being the ordinance of god ; but only the enormous and most desperate abuse of this power in fighting against the lamb , which is the ordinance of the devil . and when the beast by being witnessed against in the wicked exercise of his power , comes through the just judgment of god in putting it into the hearts of his servants to make war against him , to be despoyled and deprived of his power , his power ( properly ) is not resisted by these men , but only the horrid abuse of this power ; which abuse the justice of god judgeth meet to punish , and to prevent for the future , by the utter subversion and ruine of it . and the reason which the apostle gives , why christ shall put down all rule , and all authority and power , before his delivering up the kingdom to god the father , is , because he must reign , till he hath put all his enemies under his feet ( cor. . . . ) which plainly shews , that christ hath no quarrel , no controversie , with , or against , any power , as such , but only as bent and acted in the exercise of it against him . therefore they who clamour , or witness against , any power , simply as such , resist the ordinance of god ; and they who witness against any such power , which is subservient to the affairs of jesus christ in the world , resist not only the ordinance , but the interest also of god , and of the lord jesus christ . query ii. whether is it any way necessary in point of reason , or conscience , that they , who quietly obey , and submit unto the present power , or the persons actually invested with authority over them , should either justifie , approve , or own the termes , method , way , means , or manner , either of their attaining unto , or their investiture with , this authority and power ? or did the apostle paul justifie , or approve of , the way or means by which nero obtained the imperiall dignity , in submiting and appealing unto him , or unto his authoritie , yea or in his injoyning all christians ( as we heard ) to be subject unto him , and this not only for wrath , but for conscience sake b ? or do we ever read in the scriptures , of any person either punished , threatned , or reproved by god , for doing things simply , and in themselves , lawful , at the command , or in obedience unto , any magistrate or person , seated , and setled in authoritie , how unduly so ever advanced to his seate of power ? to this query some judg this a sufficient answer : let the reader judg between the query , and the answer , whether if the one be an harp , the other be not an harrow . we will suppose paul and phelimon engaged , the one by war , the other by faith and prayer , in the work of this present generation . if phelimon conquer , and take the power , paul will expect that phelimon should so behave himself , both in the taking of the power , and in his using of it , as doth become a christian , and the promise he is under , and not so as did nero , or william the conqueror , or others , who went a warfare for themselves , and did so declare it . . the query doth not at all enquire after what manner , or upon what terms , phelimon , upon his conquest , taketh the power , nor doth it suppose him to have taken it orderly , as neither on the other hand doth it suppose the contrary ; but purposely decl●●●th his question as impertinent to the business , which it ( the qu●ry ) desireth to promote . . neither doth it at all query , whether phelimon useth not the power wel , which he hath taken , there having been little or no opportunity to judg of this , when the query was drawn up . but , . the query only interrogates , whether paul may not with a good conscience , quietly submit and subject himself to that power , which phelimon hath taken unto himself , whether he hath taken it orderly and duly , yea , or no . and supposeth , that paul the apostle , the true paul , when he lived , did submit , yea and enjoyn submission unto all christians , unto such a power , which was altogether as disorderly and unworthily taken , as phelimon , with all the assistance of envy or dis-ingenuity , can be imagined to have taken his . but concerning this the answer is profoundly silent . yet , . concerning phelimons , as well taking , as using of the power now vested in him , if we had the true paul , paul the apostle , paul the infallible , in stead of a personated paul , to determine the question , whether phelimon hath done well and like a christian , or otherwise , either in taking , or using his power , we should have cause to reverence his decision , yea though phelimon should fall by it . but in case paul so called shall arbitrate the case against phelimon , unless he can satisfie us that he hath ploughed with the heyfer of paul truly so called , about the grounds of his arbitration , we are judgment and conscience-free from his decisions . . whether phelimons taking the power was any ways repugnant to any promise he was under , is the consideration of another query following , not at all moved in this . . ( and lastly ) if by the work of this present generation , the answer meaneth , either such a work which is incumbent by way of duty upon the present generation , or such a work which is beneficial or commodious for this generation , ( although the former and the latter be materially the same , ) i do not yet understand how paul is engaged , either by faith , or prayer , about it . if we may estimate the work about which he is engaged , by the tenor and tendency of his actings , it is a work as well of sin , as of sorrow , to the present generation . query iii. whether is it not the gracious counsel and intent of god , in declaring , that whatsoever powers be , they are ordained by him ( as we have heard ) and again , that all that are in authority , should be prayed and interceded for , yea and thanks also given for them , &c. whether ( i say ) is it not the gracious intent of god in these , and many other like declarations made by him , to provide for the peace & quiet of states , kingdoms , and common-wealths , by cutting off al occasions and pretexts from the people , of quarrelsome disputes about the rights and titles of those , who are in present possession of the soveraign or ruling powers a ? and do not all they reject this gracious counsell of god against themselves , and against their nation , and labour to defeat it , who set themselves with all their might ( yea , with more might , it is to be feared , then their own ) to raise a spirit of disloyaltie and disobedience in the people , unto the present government and governours , upon pretence , that those who are in power , did by undue and unworthy means possess and invest themselves with it ? the intent of god in that counsel by paul , tim. . , . is that supplications , prayers , and giving of thanks should be used as a first or chief means to carry on the gospel work committed to paul , and by him given in charge to timothy . and all sorts of men , both those in authority , and others , should be interceded for , or given thanks for , as they are opposers , or accepters , of the gospel . and all sorts of those in authority are no more to be given thanks for , then all sorts of men are . . it needs to be no mans doubt but that all the powers of the four first monarchies are all of them vsurpers , even from nimrod , the mighty hunter , who was the first , to the little horn , who hath the eyes of a man , and is the last . . have not the servants of god , who have held forth his testimony concerning their work in their present generation , been always counted movers of sedition , and disobedient to authority , when yet they have walked in the power of the spirit of god ? ezra . . luke . . john . . acts . . although here be words enough , whereof , in respect of their numbers , to make many answers , yet here is no word that savors of any steady , or direct answer to the query . this enquires after these two things ; . whether it was not the gracious intent of god in the two scripture passages there mentioned ( as in many others ) to provide for the peace and quiet of states and commonwealths , by cutting off all occasions and pretexts from the people , of quarrelsom disputes about the rights and titles of those , who are in plenary possession of the present power : . whether all those do not reject this gracious counsell of god against them selves , and their nation , who set them selves to raise a spirit of disloyalty and disobedience in the people , unto the present government , and governours , &c. now the pretended answer speaketh not so much as one word , either negatively , or affirmatively , or by way of distinction , to either of these points ; nor are the particulars thereof any wayes relative to the main businesse intended , either in the present , or in any other of the queries ; nor so considerate in themselves . for , . if all sorts of men , both those in authority , and others , are to be interceded , or given thanks for , as they are opposers , or accepters of the gospell which yet is an il-advised asse●●ion in as much as accepters of the gospel may be interceded for as well , if not rather , as the opposers of the gospell , why do not the men , whose cause the answer pleads , give thanks unto god for those in authority amongst us , who are no opposers , but cordial accepters , of the gospell , instead of murmuring , and venting bitter discontents , with many unchristian and hard sayings against them ? . neither is it true , that those in authority , when faithfull and upright hearted in their trust are no more to be given thanks for , then other men . a though it should be granted , that all the heads of the four first monarchies were vsurpers ( which yet may be the reasonable , at least the tolerable doubt of any man in as much as one of the heads of the first of these monarchies was by god himself represented by an head of gold , dan. . . where likewise it is said , vers. . that god had given him a kingdom , power , and strength , and glory &c. ) but be it ( as i say ) granted that all these heads were usurpers , in respect of their domination over such nations upon whom they made warre without any justifiable ground and cause , oppressing them by force of armes , exercising dominion over them against their wills , &c. yet , . it followeth not from hence that therefore any of the heads of these monarchies should be usurpers in respect of any such kingdomes , territories , or nations , unto the soveraigne● and rules whereof they were called by the free vote or desire of the people ; or , . that all kings or cheif magistrates in the world , who were contemporarie with these monarchies ( respectively ) should be usurpers . for many of these might be ( and some , questionlesse , were ) freely called or chosen by their people into the places and trusts of kingly soveraignty . nor were either saul , or david , or solomon , &c. ( who were kings during the first of the said four monarchies ) usurpers , because kings . ( and lastly ) though it should be granted that the servants of god , who have held forth his testimony concerning their work in their present generation , have been alvvays counted movers of sedition , &c. ( however alwaies is not sufficiently proved by three or four instances , nor can be proved by all the instances that are produced yet this at no hand proveth , either . that all they who have been counted movers of sedition , were the servants of god , witnesse barabbas , theudas , judas of galilee , &c. or , . that all such , who , being by profession , and by common esteem also , and possibly in truth , the servants of god , were counted movers of sedition , were counted such without a cause . and if this misdemeanour had not been incident to professors of christianity , yea & reputed beleevers , doubtlesse the apostle peter would not have cautioned those , whom he calls elect according to the foreknowledg of god the father through sanctification of the spirit a , upon such termes as these ; but let none of you suffer as a murther er , or as a theif , or as an evil doer , or a busy body in other mens matters b. nor should the apostle paul have had any competent occasion in his addresse to the galathians , to have reminded them of sedition , amongst other works of the flesh c . and it is the notion of the generality of our best protestant expositours , that a disposition observed by him in many christians in his dayes to move sedition , and stirr up people against their rulers , occasioned from him that discourse concerning subjection unto rulers and magistrates ; which we find . rom. . . , . &c. calvin upon the place informeth us that there are always some troublesome and tumultuous spirits [ meaning in the church , or amongst christians ] who never think that the kingdom of christ can be duly advanced , unlesse all earthly power be abolished ; nor that they ever enjoy the liberty which he hath given , untill they have shaken off the yoke of all human subjection d . the substance and truth of this observation is confirmed by the pens of many others , and by the experience of all ages . nor , . ( and la●ly ) doth the aforesaid concession suppose , or so much as intimate , that the servants of god , either alwaies or ( indeed ) at any time , were counted movers of sedition , by their fellow-servants , ( the true holy , and faithfull servants of god ) but onely by the wicked and perverse generation of men in the world , unlesse they deserved to be so counted , and were movers of sedition indeed . therefore though sober and zealous christians have frequently been counted movers of sedition without a cause ; yet may it very well stand also , that many christians have been justly so counted , having given too much cause of such an imputation . what the answer meaneth by mens work in their generation ( as likewise by their holding forth gods testimony concerning the same ) i confesse i doe not well understand . certain i am , that praying , supplicateing , interceding , and giving of thanks for all in authority ; and so strengthening the hand of worthy rulers and magistrates , by a peaceable subjection unto them , and by perswading others into the like subjection , is the work ( if by work , we mean , the duty ) of every mans generation . and in this sence of the word work to curse the ruler of a mans people , is the work of no generation . query iv. whether is , or ought , the letter of the law , to be observed in all cases whatsoever ? or is not ratio legis , anima legis , i. e. the reason , or end of the law , the soul of the law , which is in all cases to be preferred before the letter , which is but as the body of it ? yea or hath any law whatsoever any binding force , further then the execution of it , or subjection unto it , are consistent with the publique safety and good a ? or are not such men judges of evil thoughts ( as the scripture speaketh b ) who condemn such persons , as violators or transgressors of the law , who in order to the publique peace and safety , act besides , or contrary to , the letter of the law , and in such cases only , wherein the observance of this letter visibly threateneth the said common peace and safety ? or whether are private men , who know little of , converse little with , state transactions and affairs , the more competent judges , when , or in what cases , the observation of the letter of the law is of a dangerous and threatening import to the publique safety , or such persons , whose dayly residence is in the mount of state-negotiations , and who by the advantage of the ground , where they stand , may very reasonably be conceived to be in a full capacity perfectly to discover and understand on what hinge the publique interest and safety turneth , and what means and interposures are most promising of their procurement , promotion , and establishment ? the dis-satisfied , as they are called , are fully satisfied in this , that the reason , or end , of the law , is to be preferred before the letter : which caused their closing with , and owning the affairs of this nation when as some , which are now in present authority , did turn their backs upon it , and le●t the work , not being able to bear it , because it was contrary to the letter . it is not the height of a mans station alone that will inable him to a true discoverie of things , but the singlenesse of his eye , together with the truenesse of that light , in which he walketh . jeremie knew the means of israels safety better then the king , and all the princes . first , if the dis-satisfied so called , be onely so called , and not such indeed , though the querist rejoyceth not ( as neither ought he ) in the formalitie of his mistake , yet doth he much re●oyce in the matter of it . but if there be none really dis-satisfied , what meaneth then the bleating of the sheep , and the lowing of the oxen ? the weak complaints of many simple ones , and the lowder vociferations of others great in their own eyes , against the present government ? . if some now in authoritie , turned their back upon , and left the work of the nation when time was , as not being able to bear it , because it was contrary to the letter of the law , it is a sign that had they been satisfied , as the answerer acknowledgeth himself with the rest , called dis-satisfied , to be , that the reason or end of the law , is to be preferred before the letter of it , they would not have turned their backs upon it , because of any contrariety in it to the said letter . therefore this turning the back in them , whether in it self just fiable , or not justifiable doth in no degree justifie , or ease the guilt of a like practise in them , who professe themselves satisfied in that , which occasioned that failing in them . he that turneth his back upon a dut●e , only through a mistake of an unlawfulnesse to perform it , rather condemneth , then any way excuseth him that shall neglect it , being perfectly satisfied about the lawfulnesse , and much more the necessitie of it . . though it be not the advantage of a mans station alone that will inable him to discover things , either near at hand , or further off , yet where there is the same , or a greater , singlenesse of the eye , and with all the same truenesse of light , the advantage of a standing must needs be a proportionable advantage for discoverie . if the answer could prove that his paul , either hath a more single eye , or walks in a truer light then his phelimon , i should without much contest grant , that these advantages in this paul , might very possibly balance phelimons advantage in point of standing . but the paul we speak of , is too full of wrath ( as is much to be feared ) to have a clear or single eye . the common saying is , impeditira animum ne possit cernere verum ; i. e. and the scripture it self saith , that the wrath of man worketh not the righteousnesse of god : the cheif reason whereof is , because it discerneth not , or apprehendeth not this righteousnesse . therefore , ( and lastly ) the reason why jeremiah knew the means of israels safetie better then the king and all his princes , was , because he was a prophet immediately & extraordinarily inspired by god . if the answerer can satisfie us that his paul plougheth with this heyfer , we will acknowledge him more able to declare the riddle we speak of , then philemon , and all his princes . but as in micah's daies men , walking in the spirit , and falshood , might notwithstanding be prophets , or jeremies , unto that people ; in like manner , he that will with a zealous confidence prophecie mens minds and desires unto them in these dayes , shall be a prophet , yea a jeremie , a great prophet unto them . yet if the answerers paul be a jeremiah also , i confesse the query was not aware of it . for this estimateth the abilities of men for discoveries of a politique nature and import , by the generall presumption of the wisest men amongst us , and ( as i suppose ) in the world , touching the present state of things in the world , and not by the private supposition of any one person , or a few , as viz. that jeremy should be risen from the dead , or now alive in england , or that any other person should now be found of a like prophetique anoynting with him . whosoever now shall undertake to preach for doctrine , or as the mind or purpose of god , any thing , which he cannot substantially prove from the scriptures to be indeed the minde or purpose of god , especially if he shall pretend revelation hereof from god , otherwise then by the scriptures , we cannot but judge him a blasphemer of the blessed fulnesse and sufficiencie of the scriptures , and very near ( at least ) unto that curse ; if any man shall add unto these things , god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book . rev. . . query v. whether are such promises , engagements , or protestations , binding upon the consciences of those , who have made them , yea or lawful for them to observe or keep , which , by reason of an alteration and change of those circumstances and terms , under which , and in consideration of which , they were made , cannot be observed or kept , without the imminent danger , or damage , of those , unto whom , and for whose sake , wealth , and safety , they were made c ? or in case , a man having borrowed a sword of his friend , and promised to deliver it back again into his own hand within a months time , this friend of his in the interim falling into a delirium or phrenetique distemper , and so continuing till the said month be expired , is this man bound in conscience to perform his promise notwithstāding , by delivering the sword into his friends hand at the time appointed ? or is not the sad providence befaln his friend in this case , to be interpreted by him , not only , or simply , as a discharge from god in respect of the performance of his said promise , but as an item , or engagement layd upon him by god , at no hand to perform it ? or hath there not within these few years past , been an alteration or change in the politique terms and circumstances of this state and commonwealth , as considerably great , as well can be imagined ? to this querie , mis-notioned as an objection , we have this , said , in stead of an answer . this objection is of no force , except it had proved that all they were fallen into a delirium , who from the beginning of these divisions in this nation , have been the pursuers o' the publigue liberties thereof ; excecting onely those , who have abetted , and doe approve of , this last late change , which as yet appear to be very few , except the base spirited cle●gie , and the oppressing lawyers , and those that are baptized into their spirit . first , this answer mistakes in the very first words of it , calling that an objection , which is onely a question , propounded to those who are dis-satisfied , for this end , that by bethinking themselves of a reasonable and direct answer unto it , they may be brought to reflect upon the unreasonablenesse of their dis-satisfaction . . whereas it spends it self upon the particular instance of a person calling into a delirium in the case specified , it declines the dint , and plain designe of the querie . for this supposeeth in the main bod●e of it , that there may many changes of circumstances and termes , besides the falling into a delirium in those , to whom a person , one or more , hath engaged himself so or so , interveen or happen , which may render the performance of a promise or engagement ( in the letter of it ) very incommodious unto those , to whom they have been made ; and consequently , unlawfull . but to this the answer opposeth nothing at all . the case of a person falling into a delirium , was onely subjoyned in the querie by way of illustration , or exemplification of the said generall supposition . it is a grand mistake to think that the force or strength of the querie lieth in a supposall , that all the pursuers of the publique liberties ( except the excepted ) have fallen into a delerium . for as the scripture speaketh of a gift , that it blindeth the eyes , not of mad or foolish men , but , of the wise , yea and perverteth the words , not of hypocrites , deceivers , or the like , but , of the richteous a ; so may it be said of any corrupt , yea or mis-notioned or mis apprehended , interest , that this also very frequently entangleth the judgements and understandings of men otherwise , and in other cases prudent and politique ( it may be , more then ) enough , yea and of such , who in re●pect of their ends and actions are not the worst of men . so that the dis-satisfied may very possibly be mistaken about the naturall and direct tendency of the late change of the government , without being supposed fallen into a delirium . but , . if the answer w●ll needs enforce a necessity upon me , to suppose , either the satisfied , or dis-satisfied partie in the land , to be fallen into a delirium , or any distemper of some affinitie therewith , i must plainely and ingenuously professe , that i should offer much lesse violence to my judgement , to suppose the latter much more obnoxious in this kind , then the former discontent or dis-satisfaction , especially about the providential interposures of god , argues a much nearer neighbourhood to a delirium then a mind patiently and composedly apaid and satisfied herewith . . if by a betting and approving the last late change , the answer meaneth , the abetting it in the travell of it , as viz. by furthering , and assisting the production or bringing it forth ; and so , the approving , or justifying of all the wayes , means , or considerations , which contributed toward the production of it , i confess i question whether so many abetted and approved it , as the answer supposeth . for i presume that this , terming the clergy , base-spirited , and the lawyers , oppressing , intends these epithites , not as individuall , but as specifical ( respectively . ) if so , i can hardly think that either the clergy , or the lawyers ( i. e. all in both of these kinds ) ever did abet , or doe approve , of the said change . if by abetting and approving , the answer meaneth , a willing , patient and quiet subject on unto it , approving it so farre , as lawfull to be thus subjected unto , doubtlesse there are far greater numbers , then what the answer speaketh of , who thus and in this sence abe● and approve of it . the commanders of the ships of this common-wealth at sea , withall under their command ( respectively ) most of ( if not all ) the regiments of the armie on land , as well in ireland and scotland , as in england ; and so again , very many , if not all , the more considerable cities and burroughs , and greater towns in england , have declared themselves abettors and ap●rovers ( in the sence distinguished ) of the change into the present government . i confesse that in the proper and usual sence of the word , approve , viz. as it signifieth , to like well of , to justifie , or commend , i know very few , scarce any ( though very possibly there may be many ) who have declared themselves approvers of the said change , viz. so far as this change was the contrivance , procurement , or work of men . nor do i conceive that , in this sence , it ever was , or will be , pressed upon any mans conscience to approve it . it will serve for all politique , peaceable , and publique ends and purposes , if it be approved by men so farre as god hath had his hand in it , it being more appropriately his work , then mens ; according to that of daniel , he [ i. e. god , not man , or men ] removeth kings , and setteth up kings a , [ i. e. changeth and altereth both governors , and forms of government ] i presume all that will be required of the people of the land , is , to approve of the present government as lawfull to be submitted unto [ simply , and in the generall ] and as necessarie to be submitted unto by them , whilest god shall please to continue it over , or among , them : . the answer yetunder hand , as it falls somewhat unchristianly foul upon the clergy ( so called ) in terming them , base-spirited , and so upon the lawyers , in st●leing them oppressors ; so on the other hand it makes them some kind of recompence , though ( i presume ) at unawares , and as much besides intention , as truth , in numbering them amongst the pursuers of the publique liberties of this nátion since the beginning of our divisions . i beleeve that the farre greater part of both generations have no conscience of this honour . but though my heart be not with the generality or bulk of either profession , yea i judge the nation very deplorobly miserable in being so dis-furnished , as it is , with men of worth and conscience , in both ; yet , . i beleeve we have israel's proportion of good men , in both , one of a city , and two of a tribe b which consideration mediated ( though , it seems , it could not obtain , or prevail ) for somewhat better epithites to be bestowed upon the respective members of both professions , the base-spirited upon the one , and oppressing , upon the other . . if the persons meant by , the clergie , have of late times declared against , and rejected , the appellation , because of the offensivenesse of it ( which , as i remember , they have done ) it is not ingenuous to reproach or twit them with it . . ( and lastly ) i beleeve that some of those , whom the answer stigmatizeth , as base-spirited , have of the incorruptible seed of the word of god begotten most of the most truly noble and heroique spirits in the land . query vi . whether was that supposition of moses without sufficient reason , or gronnd , when , upon his avenging one of his brethren by smiting the egyptian , who oppressed him , he supposed that his brethren would have understood how that god by his hand would deliver them ? or were not his brethren dull and slow of heart in not taking the kindly impressions of such a providence , and not understanding , that pregnant intimation from god , that his counsel and will was , to appoint and make his servant moses a prince or ruler over them , and this in order to the vindication of their liberties , the freedom of their persons from oppression , and to their further benefit and good otherwise ? or do not they shew themselves to be altogether unexperienced in the speech and language of high providences , or at least to be either but dull and drowsie , or else cross and froward , interpreters of the most signal dispensations of god , who do not understand that his will and pleasure is , to appoint such a person toties quoties , by whose hand he vouchsafeth unto a people a long continued series of extraordinary deliverances , for a prince and ruler over them ? or do not that people reject the counsel of god against themselves , who say unto a person so commended unto them , and appointed over them , by god , who made thee a ruler or a judg ? for answer to this query , we have another , but altogether irrelative to it ; viz. this , whether had moses been worthy the name and honour of a prince and ruler , if , instead of guiding the people into canaan , he had for his ease and pleasure sake turned again into egypt ? if moses had built again the things , which he had destroyed , he had made himself a transgressour . here is nothing at all in this answer , to the tendencie or purport of the query . and i● had been ( upon the matter ) as much to the purpose , to have answered by querying thus ; if moses had been a martherer of his father , and of his mother , and had committed inc●st with his sister , had he been meet to be appointed a prince or a ruler over the people of god ? for doubtlesse he was as farre from turning back again into egypt for his ease or pleasures sake , as he was from committing these abominations . indeed the foolish , froward , and discontented people , were laying their heads together , and consulting , to make them a captain , who should lead back again into egypt . and they said one to another , let us make us a captain , and return into egypt a . but moses was a man of another spirit : he was on●ly for the leading them forward towards canaan , not for the carrying them back to wards egypt . or , . if the intent of the said anti-querie be to insinuate against the person minded in the parallel of moses , in the queree , any such unworthinesse , as if he were a man , who for his ease and pleasure sake meant to re●i●s●ave the people of this nation , the reflexion is not onely groundl●sse ( and in this respect , scandalous , and un-christian ) but likewise is , . contrary to the verdict of common sence , which dictateth , that there is neither ease , nor pleasure , but care and trouble , and wearisomnesse both of flesh and spirit , to be expected in that station of government , wherein god hath placed him ; and . to the very tenor and purport of those articles , or constitutions of the government , to the observation whereof he hath solem●ly sworn ; which are calculated and fram'd as it were on purpose for the preservation and maintenance of the publique liberties of the people , and this with as much wisdom and contrivance , as can reasonably he expected from men ; of which somewhat further in one of the additional queries . . ( and lastly ) it is not necessary that he who builds again the things , which he destroyed , should make himself a transgressour by his new building them . it was said of paul to his great honour , by the christians of his times : he which persecuteth us in times past , now preacheth the faith , which once he destroyed b however , if these words in the answer , if moses had built again &c. be reflexive upon him , whom god hath given ( moses-like ) for a ruler unto this nation , as if he should now be about to build again the enslavement of the people , which he hath heretofore destroyed , the reflexion ( as hath been already said , in ●ffect ) is papably and putidly calumnious , and not fit either for the heart , or mouth , or p●n , of a christian . query vii . whether did not god send that moses to be a ruler and a deliverer unto his people , who was refused by them saying unto him , who made thee a ruler and a judg ? or is it not a matter of frequent occurrency and observation in the providential administrations of god , that such things are brought about and done by him , which , though as contrary to the minds and desires , as to the expectations of many good people , when they are new done , yet turn to an incomparable benefit and advantage unto them afterwards ? or was not the death of christ , as a sword passing through the soul of his virgin mother , yea and of many other holy and gracious persons , both men and women , by which notwithstanding they were highly raised in peace and comfort afterwards , and shall be eternally saved ? or did not eleven of the twelve tribes of israel side with the house of saul against davids advancement over them , being for a time highly unwilling and discontented that he should be their king , under whose government notwithstanding they flourished like a green bay tree , and saw many years of the greatest prosperity and peace ? the dis-satisfied are fully satisfied in this , that all things work together for good to those that love god . and so shall the present change : it shall discover the thoughts of many hearts , and make manifest whether men walk in the power of the spirit , which is of this world ; or in the power of that spirit which is of god : which is a blessed businesse , and of great advantage . though there be little or nothing in this answer to the purport of the query , yet let us animadvert somewhat upon it . . it is good tidings to hear that the dis-satisfied about the late change in government , will be satisfied , especially fully satisfied , with any thing . there is the more hope that in time they will be satisfied with that also . but , . if they be so fully satisfied with the word of god , why are they not , competently at least , or however , tolerably , satisfied with the works of god also ? or is it not his work ( as we lately heard from daniel ) to remove kings and to set up kings ; and consequently to make all the changes and alterations in government that are found in the world ? or is any work of god , compared with his word , so heterogeneall or dissonant to it , that he that is fully satisfied in the one , should be capable of no satisfaction at all in the other ? and . if the present change shall work together for good to those that love god , why do not those who love god , especially being fully satisfied in the truth and certainty hereof , rather ( according to the apostles exhortation , in every thing to give thanks a ) give thanks unto him for the change , at least so farre , and in such a respect , as it worketh for good to them , then murmur or complain against it , or suffer sathan to fill their hearts with wrath , discortent , or indignation , because god hath either brought to passe , or however , suffered it to come to passe ? i beleeve that jobs wife would not have uttered her self in such passionate discontent , as she did , because of her husbands sufferings , though deep and greivous , had she indeed beleeved that they would have wrought for good unto her . should men be offended at their benefactours ? . it is confessed that the present change hath already discovered the thoughts of many hearts , and may ( probably ) discover many more . but that it should make manifest , whether men walk in the power of the spirit of this world , or of the spirit which is of god , is in no degree probable , scarce possible ; unlesse ( haply ) it be by some such after fruits or consequents of it , which at present are hardly imaginable . for it is a clear and manifest case , that they do not all walk in the power of the spirit of god , who murmur and are offended at it , and oppose it ( witness the walkings of the conspiratours against it , lately discovered and apprehended ) and so again that all they , who are satisfied with it , and who live peaceably , and with comfort under it , do not walk in the power of the spirit of this world . for if they who tremble at the word of god , and dare not rebell against it , and this word expresly chargeth , let every soul be subject to the higher powers ; and , that the powers that be , are ordeined of god ; and again , that whosoever resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of god &c. if such men ( i say ) as these walk in the power of the spirit which is of god , and not of the spirit of this world , then all those who for conscience sake are subject to the government brought in by the late change , cannot so much as with any face of reason , or of truth , be judged to walk in the strength of the spirit of this world , but of the spirit which is of god . so that if the present change be a touchstone of persons walking in the power of the one spirit , and of the other , the dis-satisfied are much more like to be found walkers in the power of the worser spirit , then of the better . but is a very inconsiderate and ill digested notion , to conceive , that either a going on the right hand , or on the left , in politicall questions or disputes , should make it manifest whether men walk in the power of the spirit which is of god , or of the world . i am strongly inclined to think , that men of this notion , understand but little what it is to walk in the power of the spirit of god . there are other manner of touchstones for the discoverie of the two sorts of walkers mentioned , then a state quod libet , or the adhering in judgement to one side or other of a dialectical question about a forme of government , which yet are very insufficient to manifest the one kind of these walkers from the other . i confesse that a very great number ( i suppose i might safely say the farre greater part ) of th 〈…〉 , who walk in the power of the spirit of the world , are manifest more then enough , without being manifested , either by their satisfaction , or dis-satisfaction , about the present change . but the manifestation of so much as a considerable number of those , who walk in the power of the spirit which is of god , is hardly procureable or attainable , not onely not by the said , either satisfaction , or dis-satisfaction , but not by symptomes of a far more searching and important signification , then these . . ( and lastly ) the fruits of the blessed businesse , and great advantage , of which the cloze of the answer speaketh , are no more like to grow upon the tree pretended ( in the former part thereof ) to bear them , then grapes are to grow upon thorns , or figgs on thistles . query viii . whether are not children like to receive better quarter , and terms of love , care , provision in things necessary and convenient , &c. from their natural parents , and such who begat them , then from strangers , or persons not so neerly related to them ? or is any community of men , or body of people , like to be so naturally regarded and cared for in the things of their comfort and peace , by any other kind of ruler , or governour whatsoever , as by those , who , under god , have been the preservers of their lives , liberties , and estates , by exposing their own persons to all the difficulties , hardships , and hazards of war , and jeoparding their lives themselves in the high places of the field , where death for the time had his throne ? or doth not the preserving of a people upon such terms as these , as kindly , as naturally , as affectionately , endear them to their preserver , as the act of procreation commendeth children unto the love and tender affections of their parents ? or is not the act of preserving of very neer a ●in to the act of begeting ? if the premises will stand , who are more desireable by a people in the places of rule and authority , then those , who have been their great preservers ? to this querie we have onely this pettie impertinency for answer : but for this brevi●y we shall have consideration in words in the answers to some of its fellows following . it seems the government is placed even where the querist would have it . but let us be patient till we see the fruit , and then we shall know the tree thereby of what kind it is . . oh that the answerer could perswade himself and his dis-satisfied party , to hearken to the voyce of his own christian admonition and exhortation here , and to be content and patient , until they see the fruits of that government , which with so masculine an effeminacie they decry without end ? how blessed a businesse and great advantage might this patience of theirs probably prove unto the nation ! but . how preposterously irregular and unreasonable is the answerer , with his dis-satisfied partie , to labour in the very fire , as they doe , for the hewing down a tree , as corrupt and naught , whilest as yet they confesse they know not of what kind it is , nor what fruit it will bear ! the words of the answer are of an expresse import this way ; let us be patient till we see the fruit , and then we shall know , &c. . if the sig-tree in the parable ( luke . ) instead of being diged about and dunged to make it fruitfull , had by the dresser of the vineyard , been mangled , chopt , hackt , dismantled of her bark , principall boughs , &c. the native fruitfulnesse , or that which by an orderly digging about , and dunging it , it might have been brought unto , could not be estimated , judged of , or known . as oppression is said to make a wise man mad a ; so may mis-usage or mis-handling , make a good and a fruitfull tree , barren , or the fruit of it , degenerous , and not answerable to the native goodness of the tree . neither can the real worth of a good government , or governour , ever be , experimentally , or by their fruits , sufficiently known , if those , who live under them , and should live in subjection unto them , be continually quarrelling and provoking , and by all mens weakning the hand of both from being lift up unto those ways and methods for publique benefit , which are in their hearts . a tree is known by the fruit ; [ viz. if it be planted in a soyl proper to it , and hath that culture and husbandry bestowed on it , which the nature and kind of it requireth . ] . ( and lastly ) if the querist would have the government placed even where it is , although the answer casteth the very seeming , or appearance , of such a thing , as a blemish or blot upon him , yet he knoweth no reason why he should be ashamed of the comportment of his will with the will of god . certain he is , that god is willing that the government should be placed , even where it is ; yea he judgeth , and ver●ly beleeveth that god is not meerly or barely permissive in this his will , haveing been operative with so high ( i had almost said , miraculous ) an hand towards the accomplishment and effecting of it . in which respect the querist cannot but judg , that god is willing that the government should be placed even where it is , etiem voluntate approbante , even with his will of approbation . however , if the answeret shall pretend knowledge of a wiser , or better , disposition of the government , then even where now it is placed , the querist must professe that he knoweth not how to submit his apprehensions of the wisdom and goodnesse of god , unto any conceit whatsoever , whereof , either himself , or any other ; is capable , of the wisdom or goodnesse of men . ix . whether are not they rather back-biters of sin , then reprovers , who importunely declaim and cry out against the sins of those that are absent ? or is not this a most unworthy practise of men , to insinuate themselves into the hearts and affections of simple and inconsiderate people , by causing , or tempting them to think the better of themselves , whilest others are reproached and declaimed against in their hearing , as persons more sinful and unworthy , then they ? or have not daring and bold speeches uttered against superiors , and persons in authority , tending to blemish them , or to impair their honor & esteem , always been of an affectionate and captivating resentment with the more ignoble and lower-spirited sort of men , causing them to have the persons of those , who utter them , in admiration , as worthy assertors of the liberties of the people , and exposing their own liberties , yea and lives also , to make the purchase ? instead of an answer to this querie , this is said , no doubt the sins of those that be absent , may be upon many occasions spoken against , or else the scriptures had never kept upon record the sins of noah , david , and others to be spoken of even in all generations . yea there are many cases wherin we are partakers of other mens sins , if we doe not in our places bear witness against them . no doubt many servants of god in this nation have spoken against the sins of the late court , and supertitions of the late prelates , when as yet none of them were present : and yet were not accounted by the saints to be transgressours , but faithfull in their generation . this answer giveth the querie a goe-by , in stead of an encounter with a broad side : and looks a little towards it on the back-side of it , nor careing to look it in the face ; the querie is farre from supposing that the sins of those that are absent , ought in no case , or upon no occasion whatsoever , to be reproved , or witnessed against . the truth is that no sin at all can be reproved , but what is like to be , as well the sin of some that are absent , as well as of any that are present . that miscarriage , and unworthinesse which the querie strikes at , is the importune , restlesse , and day-after-day declaiming against the sins of those who are absent , especially of their superiours , and such who are in authority , and this in a way to gratifie and feed the corrupt and froward humours of those that are present ; as when a ministery spends it selfe more in makeing those that are absent , worse then they are , then in making those who are present better then they are ; ye in making those that are present worse then they would be otherwise , by making them judges of evill thoughts , and speakers of evill words , against those who have neither done them , nor ( as they have raason enough to be confident ) intend them , the least harms . the querie witnesseth against such a practice as this , as unchristian and sinfull ; and suggesteth , that , of the two , it may rather be termed , a back-biting of sin , then a reproving . and this ( i presume ) cannot be opposed , either with scripture , reason , or truth : nor doth the answer lift up so much as the least iota against it . if it be here rejoyned , that speaking these things , i put good men to rebuke without cause , reflecting upon them as guilty of such misdemeanors , whereof they are innocent and free ; i answer , that if these good men do not put themselves to rebuke by practising the things imported in the querie , as unworthy , neither doth the querie put them to rebuke . for this nameth no offender ; neither doth it particular●ze , characterize , or point at any person , more , or otherwise , then the scripture it selfe , when it saith ; thou shalt not revile the gods , nor curse the ruler of thy people a . he that doth not revile the gods , not curse the ruler of his people , is not at all reproved , or condemned , by this scripture , but rather justified , and commanded , in his innocency from these great offences . nor should the querie beat the air , unless it should suppose some persons now in being , guilty of the crimes therein censured . if the genius and tendency of it be as proper to keep men innocent , as to bring them who have transgressed , to repentance , this is enough to assert the usefulness of it , though there were no person upon the face of the earth touch'd in a way of reproof by it . yea they who can wash their lips in innocency from the foulness there specified , are vertually praised , and not at all disparagingly reflected upon , by it . if the answer could have justified any thing , either by the scriptures , or by the approved practise of the saints in any generation , which is made sin , or censurable , by the querie , it had deserved the name and acknowledgment of an answer . but the answer having nothing to lay to the charge of the querie , neither shall the querist be further troublesome to it . query x. whether is there any instance or example to be found in all the scripture of any prophet , or faithful servant of god , who counted it a pleasure to declaim against their rulers before the people ; especially against any such ruler , whom they acknowledged , or knew , to be a person fearing god , and withall , a man , the tenderness and goodness of whose conscience they could not lightly but know to be such , which made him utterly averse as to any penall vindication of himself , ( especially upon the persons of such men , whom he had the least cause of all to judg godly , ) though highly injured and provoked by them ? or is it not a most unworthy strain of an un-christian dis-ingenuitie , to tread and trample upon those with a foot of insolencie , whom we know ( or at least have very good grounds whereon to be confidently perswaded ) that they are fast bound in their judgements , and consciences towards god , from rising up against us , to repair themselves , or to measure . out unto us according to the just demerit of such our misdemeanors against them ? this query hath produced us a larger answer then any of its fellows . there is no doubt many instances to be found : but some come to hand with little search . amos he declaims against the sins , foretels the judgment that should come upon jeroboam , and that to the people of the land , and not to his hearing . and therefore amaziah the priest sends to the king ( no doubt to curry favor with him ) accusing the prophet , telling him that amos had conspired against him , and that the land was not able to bear his words . am. . again , jeremie sends baruch to read the roul , which contained the sin , as well as the judgments of the princes and people of israel , to read the same to the people in the house of the lord , the king not being present , but the princes afterward told the king thereof , ier. . again , am. . the prophet doth declaim against the sins of several countries with their princes . now surely he could not be present with them all at once . again , the prophet ezekiel likewise being in babylon with the first that went captive , doth even at that distance by gods command , set his face towards jerusalem , and declaim against the sinnes thereof , and in particular against the sins of the princes . ezek. . . jesus christ himself called herod , fox , behind his back . yea it is hard to be proved that the servants of god were present with the princes , whose sins they reproved . . this supposition is born out of due season : for the patience gloriedin , is not so fast bound , as is supposed . ( these last words relate unto the latter passage in the query ; or is it not a most unworthy strain , &c. ) . there is not within the large circumference of this answer , any oneline , or clause , that joyns issue with the main import of the querie , which is , whether there be to be found any instance in all the scripture , of any prophet , or servant of god , who counted it a pleasure to declaim against such their rulers before the people , whom they acknowledged , or knew , to be men fearing god , and with all &c. to this point of the querie , which is the heart and soul of it , the answer offereth nothing at all , but turneth aside to some examples of idolatrous and wicked princes and rulers , as jeroboam , jehojakim , &c. against whom , together with their people partakers of their sins , some of the prophets of god , by immediate , particular , and expresse revelation , were charged to prophesie , and to denounce the judgements , which he had determined to bring upon both , in case they did not timely repent . and because these expresses from god , concern'd , as well the people , as their princes , and the people being many , were the more considerable partie concerned in these messages ; nor had the prophets entrusted with these messages , always opportunity to conveene the people and their princes together , therefore sometimes they delivered their burdens , or messages from god unto the people , the princes being absent . but they alwayes set down , or caused to be set down , in writeing , the tenor of these their prophecies ( respectively ) that so they might be presented unto the princes upon occasion ; as is evident in the case of jeremies roll , ( mentioned in the answer ) which was read in the ears of the king , jer. . . and this after the summe and substance of it had been made known unto him before . what is there then in any , or in all , the examples insisted upon in the answer , that doth so much as colourably parallel , or justifie , the practise of those , who with turbulencie of passion and discontent , prophecie the visions of their own hearts , ( made of bitternesse and blood ) not against jeroboams , jehojakims , herods , idolatrous or ungodly rulers , but against davids , hezikiahs , josiahs , men zealous for god , lovers of righteousnesse , hating covetousnesse , &c. with open mouth , and in a clamourous manner , restlesly , and without crasing , pouring contempt and disparagement upon them , laying to their charge things which they know not , calling their light , darknesse , making their streight things , crooked , traducing their faithfulnesse under the odious names and mispresentations , of promise-breaking , falsifying of words &c. and all this in the ears ( for the most part ) of an ill-spirited and inconsiderate multitude , with menacing or disparaging glances at all such being present , who shall make report of the words spoken unto him , or them , who are most concerned in them . so that the practices and deportments of the men now described in the businesse under consideration , have as little communion with the behaviour and carriage of the prophets alledged in the answer , as light hath with darkness , or righteousnes with unrighteousness , or that which is from god , with that whih is from men . all circunstances ( well nigh ) in the proceedings of the one , and of the other , are diametrally opposite . . the prophets , though they mentioned or named the sinns of their rulers before the people , yet they sought not hereby to render them odious to their people , or to incense the people against them , but rather to admonish the people , that if god were determined to punish their kings and princes for such and such sins , if in time they repented not , much lesse would ht spare them , being partakers with them in their sins , in case they remained stubborn and impenitent . but the men , whose justification is attempted in the answer , insist upon matters of oblequie and charge against their rulers , before the people , not to admonish them of any communion in sin with their rulers , nor of any judgement of god hanging over their heads for such communion , but onely , or chiefly ( as is too too apparent ) to create and work an odium or distaste in the people against their rulers . . the prophets insisted onely upon such sins of their rulers before the people , whereof they were truly and really guilty , and which either by the light of nature , or the expresse word of god , or both , they certainly knew to be sins indeed . whereas the men we speak of , arreign their rulers at the barre of their hearers , for matters of cavillation , and for such things , under the names of enormous crimes , or actions , which both by the word of god , and by the law and light of nature , are , under such circumstances , as under which they were transacted by them , not onely or simply justifyable , or warrantable , but also , ( as farre as sober men , and of best and soundest understandings , are able to judge ) worthy commendation . . the prophets ( specified in the answer ) were not onely willing that the kings and rulers , whose transgressions together with the judgments threatened against them , they had occasion to declare in the ears of the people , should come to the distinct and perfect knowledge of what they declared in this kind , but likewise endeavoured and procured it . goye ( saith christ ; and tell ye that fox , behold , &c. ( meaning herod . ) so the prophet abijah , king. . . see also chrn. . verse . whereas their preposterous imitatours , are wont to reprove , disgrace , or threaten those , that shall informe their rulers of the truth of those things , which they ( at their pleasures ) speak of them before the people . . the said prophets never disparaged , or poured contempt upon their good , godly , or worthy kings or rulers , in the presence or hearing of the people , but upon their idolatrous , wicked , and unjust kings onely . but the tongues of their competitours are as drawn swords in the middest of the people , against such rulers , who themselves cannot but acknowledg to be men of a gracious anoynting from god , just , and holy , and good . . ( and lastly , that which is as much , or more , as all the former ) the prophets indeed , had a particular and expresse commission and charge by way of immediate revelation from god , in all things to speak , as they spake , and doe as they did in the premisses , in which respect a necessity lay upon them in both . whereas the by prophets , eyed by the querie , and countenanced by the answer , ●an upon their angry message without being sent from god , nor can they give any sober , or substantial account , that they were any waies led , or inspired by him , to speak the tenth of those revilings and hard sayings against the rulers ( one , or more ) which god hath set over them , wherewith notwithstanding they have dareingly adventured to pollute their lipps , and consciences , together , yea and the minds end thoughts of many others . . whereas the answer pretendeth , that it is hard to prove that the servants of god were present with the princes , whose sins they reproved ; i rejoyn , that if the scriptures be of sufficient authority , it is easie to prove , . that samuel was present with saul when he reproved him for the businesse of agag and of amalek , and so again , for his offering sacrifice , sam. . . . that nathan was presenr with david , when he reproved him for his murther and aadulteris . the prophet who reproved jeroboam standing by the altar in bethel to burn incense , was present with him , king , . . . eliah was present with ahab , when he reproved him , kiogs . . and a another time , kings . . . that in like manner there was a nother prophet present , when he reproved him kings . . . that michiah also was present with him , when he reproved him , king. . . . . that elisha was present with jeboram , when he reproved him , king. . . that hanani the prophet was present with asa , when he reproved him chron. . . . that jehu the son of hanani was present with jehosapha● , when he reproved him . chron. . . . that the prophet who reproved king amaziah , was present with him , when he did it . . that the prophets were present with manasseh , when they reproved him . chron. . . compared with kings . , , . . that john baptist was present with herod , when he reproved him , mat. . . . that peter and john were present with annas the high priest , and the rest of his assessors in councel when they reproved them , acts . . . that paul also was present with the high priest ananias , when he reproved him , act. . . so that it is not hard to prove that the prophets and servants of god were present . ( either formally , or equivalently , and for the most part , formally with the princes , whose sins they reproved : but it is very hard , if not impossible , to prove , that ever they reproved the sins of good princes or rulers before the people , but onely when themselves were present . . ( and lastly ) the supposition [ viz. concerning the tendernesse , goodnesse , patience , &c. of the persons most declaimed against ] which the answer saith , is born out of due time , as if it had had no being till the publishing of the queries , had ( undoubtedly ) received birth and being long before this , and lived ( i verily beleeve ) in the brests of those very men , who now seek to slay and destroy it ; or if not in theirs , yet in other mens , where it is as much made of , and delighted in , as it could have been in theirs . and whereas the answer ( inconsiderately , and with a little ven●m ) adds ; for the patience gloried in , is not so fast bound , as is supposed ; i rejoyn , . that here is no glorying in any mans patience , but onely the patience of a man , modestly and with truth attested , or ( more properly ) supposed . . that the patience of a magistrate , or cheif ruler , is not to be estimated by his regular and necessarie severity in order to the publique peace and tranqaillity of his people , but by his habitual deportment of himself under such personal wrongs and provocations , which may be pardoned or put up without the prejudice , or danger of other men . therefore notwithstanding any thing yet acted or done , the patience , which the query supposeth , may in the language of the answer ) be as fast-bound , as it is supposed . query xi . whether doth not the apostle , expresly charge and injoyn every soul ( without exception of any ) to be subject to the higher powers , declaring , that whosoever resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of god , ( rom. . . ) if so , do not such persons sin against an express commandment of god , and this with an high hand , who , under what pretext soever , shall openly teach disobedience unto the powers over them , animating and encouraging , yea by all unchristian and indirect means , incensing and provoking the people against the powers , which god , whether in judgment , or in mercy , hath most justly placed and appointed over them ? or can the sin of resisting the powers , be more pregnantly , unquestionably , yea or more dangerously and mischievously perpetrated and committed , then when those , who ought to live in subjection under them , are day after day , openly solicited , tempted , urged , yea upon religious pretences conjured , to deny or refuse this subjection unto them , and are passionately , and ( as it were ) out of an extasie of zeal , born in hand , that whilest they break so signal a command of god , they do him worthy service ? this query ( it seems ) hath by an equivocal generation , begotten two more , which conjunctim call themselves an answer to it . the former , this : did the authors hear those teachers , which he doth defame ? the latter this : doth the author judg that all commands of all superiors , are always to be obeyed ? surely no : for then they should be found transgressors , who shall exercise the vengeance written against babylon , when the kings of the earth their superiors shall b wail her burning , as wholy avers to those providences : & they also who shall come at call to the supper of the great god to eat the flesh of kings and captains , &c. to the former of these questions i answer . . that it rejoyceth in a thing of nought , building it self upon the sand , in ead of a foundation , and supposing , that there are some teachers in being , whom the author of the queries defameth . for if there be any such teachers now upon the stage , whose protraicture is truly drawn in the last recited query , they cannot be said to be defamed thereby , unlesse men may be defamed by the truth . men may be ill reported of by the truth : it is no good report i hear of you ( said eli to his sons : ) but john the baptist did not ( i conceive ) defame the pharisees and sadduces , when he stiled them a generation of vipers : nor did christ defame herod , when he called him , a fox ; nor paul , nero , when he termed him , a lion . or if there be no such teachers amongst us , as that query purporteth , there is no ground to complain that any are defamed by it . for those who are not such , it neither maketh , nor supposeth , to be such . or if there be any , who are in part , though not altogether , such , as are there represented , and so likely in time to prove altogether such , the query is so farre from defameing these , that it is of a very proper calcalution to prevent their infamie ( at least in the growth and increase of it ) by presenting them , as in a glasse , with such a face , the deformity whereof they cannot light●y but abhorre , and so be far from makeing their own like unto it . review also the latter part of the reply made to the answer of the query . . whereas the said former question interrogates , did the author hear those teachers &c. i answer : the author heartily wisheth that there were no such teachers , as are there described either for him , or any others , to hear . yea he hopeth , that there neither are , nor ever will be , such teachers , whose unworthinesse will hold out , length and breadth , with that description ; only he is more then jealous , that though he knoweth no men amongst us , yet there are sturdy striplings amongst us , likely in a short time to make men , of that generation . or if the said interrogatory catcheth at any such advantage as this , that the author of the queries must needs goe beyond the line of his christian commission , in reproving , or blameing such teachers , from whom he hath not personally heard the things , for which he reproveth them ; his answer is , that an accusa●ion even against an elder may under two or three witnesses be entertained , how much more under double and treble the number ? but more of this in our progresse . the latter of the two questions , may well be a question indeed . for doubtlesse the author is every whit as farre as the answerer , if not somewhat further , from judgeing , that all commands of all superiors are alwaies to be obeyed . nor can he well imagine why such a question as this should be put . by , resisting the powers , neither doth the apostle , nor the query , understand , a non-complying [ obedientially , or practically ] with all those that are in power , in whatsoever they shall command ; i never knew , nor heard of , so much as any one man , who was thus minded ; but , by the phrase of , resisting the powers , [ viz. which are , and are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , sovereign or supreme ] the apostle ( questionlessely ) meaneth , a denying subjection to these powers , as such , [ . a refuseall of obeying them in such commands , which they have a right o● authority , to impose upon men , which right extendeth onely to things lawfull . ] for no power or powers whatsoever , have any right to impose any such command upon any person , which the person commanded hath not a right or liberty from god , to obey . t is true , the powers we speak of may be resisted in a worse sence then that now opened ; as viz. when they are not onely rejected in their lawful commands , but their subversion and ruine attempted also , whether by force , or by politique insinuations or counsels . he that either disobeys the lawful commands of the powers that are , or by force endevours , or by subtilty contrives , their abolition , may very properly be said to resist the powers . but , . the instance of the execution of the vengeance upon babylon , is very improper to prove , that superiours may be resisted in unlawfull commands . for evident it is from rev. . . that those who shal execute the vengeance that is written against babylon , shall have the concurrence of their kings , or princes , with them therein . and the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast ( interpreted to be the ten kings , who at first gave their power and strength to the beast , and made warre against the lambe . v. . ) these [ viz. amongst them , some , if not all , of them ] shall hate the whore , shall make her desolate , and shall eat her flesh , and shall burn her with fire . and for the kings of the earth , spoken of chap. . . here said to have committed fornication , and lived deliciously with her , and to bewail and lament for her , when they behold the smoak of her burnings , &c. they either are such of the former kings , who shall not joyn with their fellowes in hateing the whore , makeing her desolate and naked , eating her flesh , &c. but persist in their adulterous league with her to the very last ; or else they may be , the cardinalls , and great bishops of the antichristian sea , who in respect of their wealth , power , pomp and external magn●ficance , may be termed , kings or princes of the earth . query xii . whether do not all christians stand expresly charged , to make supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks , as for all men , so more especially for kings , and all that are in authority , that they may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty ? if thus , do not such christians notoriously prevaricate with the scope and intent of their own supplications and prayers ( at least if they supplicate and pray according to the prescription of the holy ghost , now mentioned ) who labour in the very fire without ceasing to make proselytes unto barabbas , in stead of jesus christ , striving might and main to season all they can , with principles of turbulency and sedition , and to mold their christian brethren into such counsels and resolutions , which no man can reasonably imagine or expect , but that they should , or will , exasperate those in authority into such ways , which must needs make their lives less quiet and peaceable ? to this query , this bi-membred answer is given . . kings and governors that do oppose the testimony of jesus , that breaks forth and is proper to their generation , are indeed to be interceded for , but not to be given thanks for , no more then we are bound to give thanks for theeves and murtherers , because the apostle hath commanded thanks to be given for all men . . the author should have declared what those principles of sedition be . pauls principles were counted seditious , and yet they were only such things , as concern'd the kingdome of god , and name of jesus . for the first member of this answer , it is quite besides the matter of that part of the query , to which it pretends the relation of an answer . for this speaks of the prevarication of christians with the scope and intent of their own supplications and prayers , in case they pray according to the prescription of the holy ghost , tim. . . the answer excepts nothing against praying or supplicateing for any sort of men , but against giving of thanks for some men ; concerning which the query moveth nothing at all , further then the bare citeing of the words , giving of thanks , amongst others , in the passage transcribed from the apostle . what testimony of jesus it is , which this part of the answer supposeth to be proper to a generation , and more especially to this generation ( for this is the emphasis of the busine ) he answerer should have declared , as he saith to me concerning the principles of sedition , of which i speak . it seems there were some in paul's dayes , who troubled the minds of many with this not on or doctrine , that the day of christ was at hand , thes. . . yet this was no testimony of jesus proper to that generation ; with what confidence soever it might be pretended to have been such . and to set a few people a gogg with a conceit , that if they might chuse and set up such or such persons in places of power and authority over them , they should lay the foundations of the fift monarchie , and suddenly bring the kingdome of christ ( so much spoken of ) upon the world , is no testimony of jesus proper to this generation . for jesus hath no where declared such a propriety as this , to reside in such a doctrine , or testimony of him , as that now mentioned . if by , proper to a generation , the answer meaneth , commodious , usefull , or necessary to a generation , certain i am that the doctrin of subjection unto the higher powers is very proper to this generation . but concerning what the answer speaks ( though eccentrically to the querie ) against giving thanks for theeves and murtherers ; doubtlesse in such a sence as we ought , or may , pray , or intercede for them , we may and ought to give thanks . for , for whatsoever good thing we may , or ought , intercede , or pray for on their behalf , we may and ought to give thanks , when god vouchsafeth to give it unto them . the matter of our prayer or interceding for them , ought not to be any thing sinfully evill : nor ought the matter of our giveing of thanks for them , be any such thing ( i mean , that is sinfully evill in them , ) but onely that which is good , as being some expression or testimony of the goodnesse of god towards them . but this is more against the answer , then for the querie . whereas the latter part of the answer , instructeth me in my duty , and telleth me that i should have declared what those principles of sedition be , whereof the query speaketh , considering , that pauls principles were counted seditious , which yet were onely such things , which concerned the kingdome of god , &c. i repone ( by way of excuse for my oversight , or failing , in this point , ) . that i was rank of beleif , that no person , who would vouchsafe to cast his eye upon the query , could look upon , either the querist himself , or any other person in the least degree considerable amongst us , as no more able to distinguish between principles of sedition , and things which concern the kingdom of god , then those pagans and professed infidels were , who so broadly mistook pauls principles , as the answer suggesteth . if my confidence in this kind did ill become me , i doe accept of the blame , and shame , of it . but , . ( to redeem my oversight in the premisses , and obey the voyce of the admonition given me ) i declare , . ( in the negative ) that by , principles of sedition , i did not mean things concerning the kingdom of god ; nor , . things of a doubtfull disputation whether they were ( i mean , principles of sedition ) or no ; but ( in the affirmative ) such doctrines , tenents , or conceits , which in the eye and judgement of any considering man , not intoxicated with the cup of the same notions and designes , have a manifest tendencie in them to disturbe the course of the present government , to alienate the hearts and affections of people from those rulers and governors , which god hath judged meet to set over us , and consequently to prepare them for tumultuous counsels , and practises , and for a conjunction with dis-affected persons , who shall at any time appear in the least degree considerable for the re-imbroyling of the nation in order to an alteration , of the government , or governors of it . besides , i verily beleeve , that there is not one of many but sufficiently understands what the querie meaneth by , principles of turbulencie and sedition , without any such declaration , as the answer seemes to require . xiii . whether are such men filled with the spirit of god , or with a contrary spirit , who , in stead of giving thanks unto god for those in authority ( which is the express command of the apostle , as we heard — that giving of thanks be made for all men , for kings , and for all that are in authority , &c. ) do little else upon all occasions but fill the ears of men with their discontents , complaints and murmurings against those in authority ? and whether are not murmurers and complainers a , and so again , traytors , heady , high-minded b , and again , men who despise government [ or lordship , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] presumptuous , self-willed , not afraid to speak evil of dignities c , ranged by the holy ghost himself amongst persons highly disapproved by god ? and whether is not that wisdom , which is from above , as well peaceable , as pure , gentle , and easie to be entreated d , as that which is found in persons , having bitter envying , and strife in their hearts , earthly , sensual , devillish e ? to this query , this answer tripartite is given . . it were better to try the spirits , then by querying of what spirit some are of , to gratifie the carnal world , who is alwaies ready to reject that spirit which is of god . . to reprove the sins of government , is not to despise government , but to remove from it that which makes it desspiseable . . the wisdome from above , is first pure , then peaceable . to the first member of this answer ; . that the main designe of the queries , both divisim , and conjunctim , is to try spirits , and to discover who are the persons that in their deportments about the present government and governours , are acted and led by the spirit of god , and who , by their own spirits , or by the spirit of the world . therefore if the trying of spirits be so commendable a work , the answerer hath no cause ●o blame the queries , at least in respect of their projection , or end . if they have not quitted themselves in their undertaking with that dexterity , or regularnesse of proceeding , which was to be desired , nor done their work to satisfaction , there is this to be said for them ; that their will was good , onely how to perform it they found not . . i doe not at any hand understand , how the querying of what spirit some men are of , should be any matter of gratification to the carnal world . it is a greater and more dangerous gratification of them , either so to speak , or so to doe , that they may be incouraged or perswaded , that such persons , who are of their spirit , are of the spirit which is of god . . nor is it alwayes , or universally true , that the carnal world is ready to reject that spirit , which is of god , if by carnall world , be meant all persons at present un-regenerate . for how then should the world in any part of it become regenerate ? doubtlesse no man becomes regenerate by rejecting the spirit of god , nor by a readinesse to reject it , no nor whilest either of these are found in them . but this is little to the businesse before us . the second member of the answer , in directnesse of termes contains nothing but a most true and worthy sentence : onely a little explication would strengthen the claim of it to this honour . to reprove the sins of government , [ with a christian gravitie , and with a discovery of an honourable esteeme of that government it self , the sins of which we reprove ] is not to despise the government ; but it is a matter of easie miscarriage , to reprove the sins of government after such a manner , as herein to betray our selves that we are despisers of government , yea and to incourage those that hear us to despise it also . . it is one thing to reprove the sins of government ; another , to asperse it with the imputations and charge of such sinnes , of which it is not guilty ; and then to fall heavy and foul upon it for such sins , of which , either the strength of our disaffections only , or the weaknesse , of our understandings , or both , have made it guilty . the words of the third and last member of the answer , are of too great an inspiration to be questioned . but . it is no impurity not to reproach , revile , or curse , the ruler of a mans people . . from the expresse tenour of the words , that wisdom , which is not peaceable , whatever it may pretend to purity , is evicted not to be from above . but ( saith the apostle iames ) if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts , glory not , and lie not against the truth [ by saying or thinking , you are men truly wise , when as you are nothing lesse ] this wisdom descendeth not from above : but is earthly . &c. xiv . whether did not satan ( the great enemy of the peace and safety of mankind ) desire to sift the apostles rather then any other sort of men , [ i. e. to disturb and trouble their fancies , memories , understandings , &c. for a time , with an intent and hope by this means to draw out of them some soyl or dross , some unworthy carriages , or other , which coming from them , he knew must needs be more serviceable for his ends , then the same , or the like , coming from other men . ] or doth he not in these days labour in the very fire to disturb the principles , distemper the imaginatives , disorder and confound the reasons , apprehensions , and understandings of such men , whose disordered actings and miscarriages he supposeth will be of highest conducement to his ends , which are known to be , the trouble , misery , and destruction , of the poor creature called man ? or are not such men , the men of this character , whose zeal hath so highly commended them to the opinions and thoughts of many devout and well-meaning men and women , that they judg their thresholds to be much nearer the threshold of god himself , then other mens ? against this query , this answer magnifies it self . we find none of the apostles that sathan had this advantage against , but peter , who was so confident of his own abilities that he thought none so able to stand , as he . and they are nearest unto sathans sieve , who count themselves the masters of wisdome , and rationality , in their generation . and as sathan had the greatest advantage upon men of that temper ; so when god stirrs up instruments to bear forth any testimony of his in their generation , he cl●useth the weak and the foolish things of this world . not that they are foolish : for there is no wisdom like to that which is from above . but so they are called , because so esteemed by the world , in which they live , and with which they contend to the losse of their honours , names , estates , and therefore are counted fooles . but notwithstanding they are known to be of god by those poor souls , that walk in the light of the same spirit of god which they walk in . to these things , . the scripture will not allow it for truth , that sathan had not the advantage of sifting against any of the apostles , but peter onely . for presently upon the apprehending of christ by the multitude , that were sent from the cheif priests and elders with swords and staves against him , it is expresly said , that all the disciples ( as well as peter ) forsook him and fled ( mat. . . this was an effectual sifting . yea peter ( it seemes ) in case it be supposed that he fled also , immediately repented of his flying , and shewed more courage ( at least for a time ) then any of his fellows . but , if peter was therefore more obnoxious to sathans sifting then the rest of the apostles , because he was so confident of his abilities , that he thought none so able to stand , as he , this is fully concurrent with the design of the query . for i verily beleeve that there are no men more confident of their abilities , or that think they are more able to stand , then the persons looked upon by the query , and admired by the answer . . if they who count themselves the masters of wisdom in their generation , be the men that are nearest unto sathans sieve , i beleeve the same persons will be found to inherit the relation of this proximi●y too . nor can i easily perswade my self , that the answerer himself , whoever he be , one , or more , is able to perswade them out of a corceit that they are equal ( at least ) to the first born sons of wisdom in their generation . . it is the sence of wiser men then i , and these not a few , that the men , whom the answer would make contenders with the world to the l●sse of their honours , names , estates , and upon this account , to be counted fooles , are rather gainers in all these , then losers in any , by that contest , wherein they have lately appeared ( and which they still prosecute ) i can not say , with or against , the world , but with persons of as much christian worth as i know any , so that by considering men , they are counted rather subtile , then fooles , in entering the lists of their present contention . . i confesse that those souls , who walk in the light of the same spirit with them , may very probably be exceeding confident , and imagine that they know , that they are of god , in as much as every mans wayes seems right in his own eyes ; and consequently , other mens ways , which are the same with theirs , must needs seem right also . . ( lastly ) neither doth god always chuse the weak and foolish things of this world , for his instruments to bear forth every testimony of his in their generation . luther , melancthon , calvin ( with many others of like note about their times ) were none of the weak or foolish things of this world , but men of great endowments , guilts , abilities of learning , knowledge in tongues , arts and sciences &c. and yet these were chosen by god to bear forth a great testimony of his in their generation . not to speak of moses , his great instrument of old for the service and purpose here mentioned , to whom the holy ghost himself speaking by the mouth of stephen , giveth t is testimony , that he was learned in all the wisdom of the egyptians , and that he was mighty in words , as well as in deeds ; paul himself , who was a chosen vessel unto him to bare his name even befors kings b , had neverthelesse been brought up at the feet of gamaliel , ( a doctor of the law , and a man of great reputation in his generation c ) and was taught according to the perfect law of the fathers d ; yea , and immediately before his being stirred up by god to bear forth his testimony , was by the great men of the world in his generation , highly esteemed , and judged meet to be imployed in their greatest affaires . therefore neither was he any of the weak or foolish things of the world . the rest of the apostles , however before , and at , the time of their calling to be apostles , they might be numbred amongst the weak and foolish things of the world , yet before god sent them forth to bear his great testimony unto the world , they were extraordinarily and miraculously endued with strength from on high , with wisdom and great understanding , with the knowledge of tongues , and much other learning , as is to be seen in their writings . nor doe i beleeve that god ever stirred up any instrument to bear forth any testimony of his in their generation , in any solemn or publique manner , but onely such , whom either he found men of worthy guifts and abilities at the time of his stirring them up , or else whom he furnished accordingly , in or upon their stirring , before he imployed them in any such service . the scripture indeed saith , that god hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise , and the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty , cor. . . [ speaking ( as is evident from the context ) of the mean condition , and esteem of the generality or greater part of beleevers in the world , in comparison of the great and numbers of rich men , learned and prudent men , men in high places who oppose or reject the gospel , according to that of christ , mat. . the poor receive the gospel , as the former translation read it ] but it no where saith , with the answer that he hath chosen the weak and foolish things of the world to bear forth his testimony in their generation in a ministerial and publique way . xv . whether is there any kind of zeal more ecstatical and fierie , then that which is blind , and without knowledg ? or was it not such a zeal as this , which made the apostle paul himself , whilst yet a pharisee , exceedingly mad against the saints , in so much as to persecute them even unto strange cities a ? or were not the jews , to whom notwithstanding paul bears this witness , that they had a zeal of god , the fiercest enemies of all others , to the most worthy and faithful servants of god ? or was it not a spark of this unhallowed fire , that provoked the two disciples , james and john , to demand of christ , whether they should not command fire to come down from heaven to consume the samaritans , because they received them not ? or did not the lord christ upon their motion turn himself towards them , and rebuke them in these words ; ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of b ? or do they understand and consider of what spirit , they either are , or ought to be , who ( in effect ) call for fire , not only from heaven , but from earth also ( i mean , from the vulgar , and less considerate sort of people ) to destroy , if not the persons , yet the power and authority ( which must needs endanger the persons also ) of such rulers amongst them , who do not receive their notions and doctrines about government , and submit to an investiture from them , and such as they please to joyn in the act of this investiture with themselves ? this query is presum'd satisfied with this bimembrous answer . . if zeal without knowledg , be bad , surely knowledg of , without zeal against , the sins of our generation , is much worse , and shall receive the greater condemnation . . the people that know not the law , are cursed , said the pharisees of the hearers and followers of our lord iesus . to the former part of this answer , thus . first , the answerer had small cause to reflect upon the querist , as a man without zeal against the sins of his generation . his queries themselves are , with the best strength he could readily put to them , bent against some of the greatest sins ( at least in his judgement , and as farre as his knowledge extendeth ) of his generation ; as viz. turbulencie of spirit , running without sending , revileing magistrates , murmurings and discontentments against the gracious and wise dispensations of god towards the nation , beleeving of spirits without trying whether they be of god , or no ( with others of affinitie with these . ) . zeal , being nothing but the strength and fervour of desire to accomplish some end , it may expressed otherwise then by blustering , or by crying out , either in the streets , or temple . christ shewed as much zeal , or strength of desire , to propagate the gospell and save the precious souls of men , by not striveing , nor crying , nor causing his voyce to be heard in the strets , when time was ; and so in not breaking a bruised reed , in not quenching smoking flax , &c. as he did in terming the scribes and pharisees , hypocrites , serpents , a generation of vipers , and thundring out woe after woe against them . and when the sins of our generation are more likely , according to principles of sound reason and judgment , to be redressed by a spirit of meeknesse , or private and affectionate applications unto those , who are the great offenders , he may be every whit as zealous for the redresse , who in such wayes as these attempteth it , as he , who with bitternesse of spirit , and a stent●●ean voice declaimeth against the said sins upon the house top . nor did the apostle paul intend , either to quench , or to abate , timothies zeal against sin , when he thus instructed him : and the servant of the lord must not strive , but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach , patient , instructing with meeknesse those that oppose themselves , if god peradventure will give them repentance — and that they may recover themselvs out of the snare of the devil &c. a . . ( and lastly ) although ( possibly ) knowledge of the sinnes of others , without zeal against them , be simply worse , then zeal without knowledge , considered onely as such , and apart from its fruits and actings ; yet never did the knowledg of other mens sins without zeal against them , produce the like sad and greivous effects , at least directly , in the world , yea or amongst the saints them selves , as zeal without knowledg , especially when indulged , and commended by others in the blind and irregular actings of it , hath frequently done . to the second prrt of the answer , i rejoyn ; . if the pharisees had spoke truth of the hearers and followers of christ , in saying , that they knew not the law , they had spoken nothing but truth , in saying , they were cursed , notwithstanding their hearing and following christ . for they who not long after , cryed , crucify him , crucify him , had been hearers and followers of his formerly . . were it granted , that the hearers and followers of christ were unjustly and untruly charged by the pharisees ( who were enemies to christ , and his doctrine ) that they knew not the law ; this is no proofe , so much as in colour , that therefore all those , who are hearers and followers of a fallible spirit , and subject unto error ( how importunely soever it may pretend to be from christ ) are falsly , or unduly , charged to be ignorant of the law , especially when they are thus charged by persons that are friends to christ , and love his doctrine , and know the truth . as because moses and aaron were unjustly charged with murther , or killing the people of the lord , by the congregation of murmurers a , it doth not follow that therefore david was unjustly charged by nathan ( the prophet of the lord ) with killing vriah the hittite b. so that this part of the answer also being touched , vanisheth like the apples of sodom , into nothing . xvi . whether is the assertive or high-bearing confidence of men , any demonstrative , yea or competent , argument or ground of truth , in what they deliver and avouch upon such terms ? or did any man , or any sort of men , ever fly an higher pitch of confidence then the jews when they notoriously belyed the lord jesus christ , expressing themselves thus : say we not well that thou art a samaritan , and hast a devil ? or did they not speak very ignorantly , wickedly , and falsly , when they pleased themselves with an high and confident conceit , that they spake well , and nothing but the truth ? or , are not the grounds of most mens confidence , rather ignorance , or want of consideration , of such things , which are strongly objectionable against their notions and apprehensions , in conjunction with a vain glorious humor of being thought demi-prophets , and persons of a more familiar converse with god , then other men , then any well-grounded knowledg or comprehension of the certain truth of those things , which they affirm ? this query is conceived to be balanced with this answer . true ; but yet an high bearing confidence , grounded upon the threatenings and promises that are in the scripture of truth , is ground enough to bear up the assertors against the world round about . it is not will to bear the world in hand , that the men of your opposition have no grounds of their confidence . surely there are some men of more familiar converse with god , then others are . let us cope with this also . . it is not sufficient that our confidence be grounded upon the threatenings and promises that are in the scripture of truth , unlesse . they be grounded upon them rightly understood : and , unlesse they be also grounded upon them regularly , i. e. after such a manner , and with such evidence of reason , that any sober and considering man may say and conclude thus : these threatenings , and promises , being true , in such , or such , a sence , he that is confident upon their authority of such or such an event to come to passe , cannot possibly be deceived . if the high-bearing confidence so much indulged in the answer , were brought to this touchstone , it would neither prove to be gold , or silver , or any precious stone . all the errors and mistakes , that are found at this day amongst professors of the christian religion , are grounded ( as the respective assertors or abettors of them call , grounding ) upon such sayings in the scripture of truth , which are altogether as certain and unquestionable , as well in their sence , and meaning as their truth , as those threatenings and promises hinted 〈◊〉 the answer , whatsoever they be , or can be . yea . men of un balassed , injudicious , and hasty spirits , and that are not , either extraordinarily quick and apprehensive suddainly to descry all circumstances , under which the threatenings and promises are made , on which he builds , or grounds , his confidence , or else of very industrious & patient spirits , that can sit by an intense contemp●ation , or consideration , of a matter , for some good space of time may as easily mistake in drawing conclusions touching future events , from threatenings and promises in the scriptures , as in arguing any other passages herein whatsoever . this truth would ( i conceive ) have been much more possible on al hands , then now ( possibly ) it may be , had we generally treasured up such experiments of the mis-conjectures , yea mis-confidences of men , which our present age , and that in the later years of it , hath afforded . . whereas the answer further saith ; it is not well to bear the world in hand that the men of my opposition have no ground of their confidence ; i must oppose ; that either i must bear the world in hand that these men have no ground [ i. e. no sufficient ground ] of their confidence , or else confesse unto the world , that i have no sufficient ground of my opposition . of the two , certain i am that for my conscience ( whatsoever it be for my credit ) the former is better , then the latter . . ( and lastly ) the answerer , and i , shall not make two about this , that some men are of more familiar convers with god , then others . onely herein probably we may differ . the answer seemeth to suppose , that those men are likliest to have the preheminence in that familiarity of converse , now mentioned , who appear most in earthquakes , whirlwinds , and fires ; whereas i conceive , that many times those , who walk in a still voyce , are equall therein unto the other , and sometimes before them . doubtlesse they who are of more familiar converse with god , are likest unto moses , who was the meekest man on earth in his dayes ; and so likest unto christ , in that , wherein he more pecularly commended himself for a pattern unto men : learn of me : for i am meek , and lowly in heart● : and so again , are likest to abound with heavenly wisdom , which ( as the apostle james informeth us ) whosoever pretends unto , must shew out of a good conversation his works with meeknesse and wisdom . xvii . whether is the epocha , or time of the first entrance , beginning , or setting up of the fift monarchy in the world ; fixed and determined by god in the scriptures , so that no humane endeavors or contributions towards such a thing , are any ways available to accelerate or hasten this period of time , nor ( on the other hand ) any humane opposition or obstructions or unworthy actings of men , any ways able to retard or set it back ? if neither , why should any men trouble the world round about them , and abuse the simplicity of inconsiderate people , by an importune bearing them in hand , that if they were but permitted to umpire the soveraign affairs of their state and nation , they would out of hand bring the said blessedness of the fift monarchy upon the head of the world , even before the day thereof ? or why should these men , or any others , clamor day after day in the ears of poor people , against such persons , who themselves acknowledg to be truly godly , as if they stood in christs way , and would not suffer him to set up his kingdom , or this fift monarchy , in the world , only because they cannot be satisfi'd about the truth or soberness of their notions , and refuse to steer a course , threatening ruine and confusion to their nation ? or is it not the sence and declared opinion of these men , that the day and hour , at least the year , wherein that great jubilee of the monarchy they speak of , shall begin , is unchangeably , unalterably , unremoveably fixed by god ? this query is enterteined with this answer . surely it is every mans duty , to look for , and hasten to , the comeing of the day of god a● saith peter . neither doth it become this author to bear the world in hand , that all things that god hath purposed , shall come to passe , however we behave our selvs . the religious world were christs greatest enemies at his first comeing : and its probable will be so to his second comeing . embraceing the monitory of the apostle peter in the beginning of the answer , to the remnant we return , . that the author , which the answer chargeth , is so farre from being guilty of the crime here layd to his charge , viz. of bearing the world in hand that all things &c. that . there is not a word , syllable , letter , or iota sounding this way in all the queries ; nay . he hath publiquely , and this also very frequently from from time to time , declared his judgment to the contrary , and that his sence , is , that god purposeth and intendeth many things ( in such a sence as the scriptures attribute purposes and intentions unto him ) which never come to passe , sometimes by reason of the good , other while by reason of the evill , behaviour of men . the present query indeed doth little lesse then suppose that the judgement of the authors looked after therein , and corresponding with the answerer , standeth at that point , at which the answer ( untruly ) placeth mine : and how great a rejoyceing of soul would it be unto me , if it did not , or if it could be removed thither , where the judgement , both of the querist , and of the answerer also ( as it seems ) stand together . yet . . though my sence be , that many things purposed ( as hath been said ) by god , may not , yea will not , come to passe , by reason , either of the holy , or of the sinfull , behaviours of men ; yet i beleeve withall that the coming to passe of some things , yea of very many things , purposed by him , is wholly and solely depending upon his own will and power ; and that consequently that all such things as these , shall come to passe infallibly and irresistibly , and which way soever men shall behave , or not behave themselves . no interposure of the deportments of men in one kind or other , can hinder but that the purpose of god concerning the putting an end unto the world , and this by fire , and so concerning a day of judgment concerning a raising again from the dead , both good and evill , concerning the salvation of those who have lived and died in the faith of christ , the condemnation of those , who have died impenitent and unbeleeving &c. i beleeve ( i say ) that the purposes of god concerning all these things ( with many others of like consideration , shall most certainly come to passe , let men doe , or bee , whatsoever they can , or will . yea , . if it may any waies accommodate the answerer , i declare my selfe very much inclineing to beleeve , that the time of the e●ecting the fift monarchie in the world , may either be hastened , or retarded , at least in the portch or first fruits of it , by the different or contrary behaviours of men , comporting with the one , or the other . but i am farre from thinking , that , or conceiving how , those deportments of men justified all along the answer , should have any part or fellowship either in the erection of the said monarchie , or in expediting the season of it ; unlesse ( haply ) it be in such a way , which the answerer ( i know ) cannot endure to hear of . . ( and lastly ) if it be probable that the religious world will be the greatest enemies of christ to his second comeing , how will the answerer quit himselfe , or the men of his approbation , from the danger ( at least ) of dashing their foot at this stone ? for they ( doubtlesse ) lay claim to the honour and happinesse of being members of the religious world . nor are there any more worlds , then the religious , and irreligious . they will not ( i presume ) endure to have their names written amongst the citizens of the latter ; nor doe i know any man , that hath so much as a thought to write them here . therefore they must of necessitie accept of the fellowship of the world religious . or if the meaning of this part of the answer be , that as in the great body of professors of christian religion , the best and greatest friends of christ are likely still to be found , so are his greatest enemies also , i have nothing to oppose , but onely to propose , and suppose , that they are not like to be enemies to christ , much lesse his gretest enemies who desire and endeavour nothing more , then that they , who are his friends in many things , may be so in all . postscript . query i. may it not be yet further queried , whether such persons , whether ministers of the gospel , or others ( but especially the former ) who publiquely undertake or pretend to know , and predict unto the people , how long the present government shall stand , and after how many months , or years , it shall presently be dissolved and fall , do not impose a kind of wretched necessity upon themselves to turn every stone for the raising of tumults and insurrections in the land , and to enrage the people against the present government and governors , thus to make a covering for their own shame , and to prevent the dishonor and reproach of false prophets from lighting upon their heads ? or did not the wizard in france , having engaged the reputation of his art in foretelling the death of duke beron by a bungurdian on a certain day , and finding no likelyhood , the day now approaching , of the event otherwise , resolve to make himself a true prophet by doing the execution himself , and accordingly murthered him ? this query is put off with this answer , ( consisting in a great part of quotations of scripture , more in number by the whole ●e●inue , then in pertinencie to query . ) no ; no more then the prophets and servants of god , who from the sin of their princes and governours foretold their ruines and judgements , lay under any necessity to further the same ; but rather sought to repent the judgements by provoking to repentance . sam. . . sam. . . chron. . . es● . . . jer. . . to the end . ezek. . . ezek. . . dan. . , , . hos. . . joel . . . am. . . am. . . to the end . mic. . the last . nahum . , , . hab. . . zeph. . . . z●c● . . . . mal. . . luke . . act. . . here are texts of scripture enough to prove something ; yea ( questionlesse ) many things : but here is not so much as one , nor a piece of one , to prove that which the answer affirmeth ; v. z. that uch persons , who publiquely undertake and pretend to know , and predict unto the people , how long the present government shall stand , how many months , years &c. do not impose any other necessity upon themselves to bring to passe these their predictions , th●n the prophets and servants of god lay under to bring theirs to passe , who prophecied ruine and destruction unto their princes and governors , because of their sinnes . for , . it is not true , that the prophets or servants of god here spoken of , fortold the ruins and judgements of their princes , meerly from their sins , but from the mouth of god , i. e. by particular and expresse order from him , and this delivered by immediate and extraordinary revelation , in one kind , or other . it is true , the sins of these princes were the ground and reason , why such messages of threatenings were put into the mouths of the prophets by god against them , in which respect they were ( for the most part ; for in the case of jonah's prophecying against niniveh , and in some others , it was otherwise ) injoyned by the tenour of their commissions ( respectively ) to set those their sins and provocations before them , for which god was so highly displeased with them , and was resolved according as they from his mouth signified unto them , without timely repentance , to judg , or destroy them . but these sins of the princes , were not the basis or ground , upon which the prophets by their own wisdom or understandings , calculaced or built the particular determinations of times , which are found in many of their prophesies , wherein the said princes were judged punished , or destroyed , by god for their sins ; but all such determinations were pitched and fixed by god himself , who communicated his mind and counsell in this behalf unto the said prophets . so that these prophets having matters expresly and in particular revealed unto them by god , ran no hazard at all of their credits or reputations , in declareing and predicting when , and after how long a time , the sins of such , or such , princes should be recompenced in judgement upon their heads ; and consequently , lay under no necessity at all , by any unworthy or indirect interposures , to salve their honours , or the truth of their predictions . whereas the persons thought upon in the query , calculateing their predictions of the short continuance of the present government , onely by a presumption of their own wisdom , conceiting that they see beyond , and above , what is written in the scriptures without any speciall revel●tion from god , doe apparently lay the honour of their propheticalls at the stake , and consequently expose themselves to a temptation to redeem it , and this by sinister and indirect practises , if the feat cannot be done by those , which are honourable . . it is no easy matter , if at all possible , for the prophets , or servants of god in these dayes who have no vision from god , but the scriptures , and what is written there , exactly ( as to a month , year , or the like ) to calculate the times of gods patience towards sinners in any kind , by any light or direction from the scriptures , or from the judgements or punishments of transgressors , recorded there . the reason is , because , though the sins committed in these daies , may be known to be the same , in respect of the kind and externall act in the perpetration of them , with those , whose perpetration , and judgement , are recorded in the scriptures , yet the circumstances of aggrava●ion , and extenuation , which are of main consideration with god in ordering as well the time , as degree of their punishments , are so numerous , and various , yea and sometimes so secret and inaccessible to the understandings of men , that it is next to an impossibility for men even of greatest abilities , and insight into the scriptures , so much as to take a steady aim by those scripture records , how long the patience of god will endure these , or these sinners , ●n these dayes . and besides , the scriptures informe us , that the wisdom of god is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. multifarious , or manifold ; in respect of which , upon a good account , and in order to some end worthy of him , he may respit the judgement of an offender beyond the term of his patience toward another , equall in demerit unto him , and this without the least touch of a breach upon his justice . . the spirits dealt with in the query , were at their work of denouncing judgement against the present government , and of limiting and determining the time of the standing of it , well-nigh as soon as ever it was born , and whilst yet it had scarce done either good , or evill ; whereas the prophets and servants of god of old , were seldome or never sent to denounce judgement against any person , prince or other , especially not after such , or such a prefixed time , but onely after a continuance and progresse in sin for some considerable space . . ( and lastly ) the sins of the princes , against whom the prophets and servants of god of old were sent with threatenings of judgement for these sins , were not imaginary sins , or sins , which through the ignorance , or mistake of the law , which onely maketh sin , were so called , but were sins really , indeed , and unquestionably . whereas ( as we have formerly signified ) the sins , upon the credit and authority whereof the query-prophets have adventured to prefix a time for the dissolution of the present government , are onely sins so called , or at the utmost and worst , disputeably such . yea , they that clearly understand the law of nature , in such cases , yea or the law of god , cannot adjudge them such . therefore those texts of scripture mustered in the answer have neither hand nor heart to strike a stroake in that battaile , for which they were levied . ii. again , are not these passages ensuing ( published in print and subscribed by mr john simpson , mr william greenhill , mr thomas brooks , mr hanserd knollys , mr t. harrison , mr christopher feak , mr richard wollaston , mr henry jesse , with several others , about two years since , viz. in november , . ) worthy to be engraven with the point of a diamond , and written in letters of gold ; if cesar , and pagan rulers under him in judea , and elsewhere , were to be honored and submitted unto , as both christ taught , and his apostles ( mat. . . mark . . ) ( and yet they came in by the sword , and kept gods church in bondage , ) how much more should our governours be honored by all people in our nation ? the same authors soon after expresse themselves thus : in our dayes , wherein persons truly fearing god are of divers formes , dissenting in church government , &c. some that are termed presbyterians , some independents , some anabaptists , and some that are not so resolved with any of these ; the power of chusing rulers , or of being chosen should not be limited to any one of these forms , or perswasions , to the excluding of others , [ excepting such , who either deny propriety , or magistracy , or who assert carnall liberty , or polygamy , whom we have witnessed against in our former declaration ; or such , as have opposed , or do not own , this present government . ] a little before ( in the said printed paper ) having solemnly professed thus ; with one consent we do thus declare , as in the presence of the almighty , who is the searcher of all hearts , before whom the wicked and deceitful shall be confounded at the day of judgement ; they lay down this proposition ; that all people in every nation , as well members of churches , as others , ought for conscience sake to honour such , as by the wise disposing providence of god , are their present rulers ; and are to submit to the civil commands , not only of such rulers as are faithfull , but even to infidels , ( to omit several other things of like import in the said paper . ) are not the contents and substance of these sayings , clearly and expresly founded upon the good word of god , which ( as the said authors worthily , and most truly inform us ) is the rule and standard for faith and obedience ? if so , must not all such men of necessity be false prophets , casting snares upon the people , and leading them out of the ways of truth and peace , who are so far from honouring their present governors ( though no infidels , but partakers of like precious faith with the saints themselves , though no keepers of gods church in bondage , but most zealous and faithful assertors of the entire liberties thereof , ) that with open mouth they pour contempt upon them day after day , consulting with their spleens , or worse spirits , how to make their favour to stink in the eyes of the people , and so to arm them with discontents and indignation against them ? or is this , in the dialect , or sence , of the holy ghost , to , honour governours ? to this query the answerer onely saith ; these men no doubt are of the same mind even to this day . it is not good to bear witnesse against what wee did not hear with our own ears . . if the men specified in the query , be of the same mind , at this day , which their sayings here cited , doe import , it were well that their minds , and their mouths , would goe together . how would the peace of the nation rejoyce over such an agreement , as this ? but to labour in the very fi●e , by reproaches , by revileings , by hard sayings in severall kinds , to alienate the hearts and affections of the people from the present governors and rulers , is this for conscience sake to honour our present governours and rulers ? he that can thus interpret , need not care what text is given him . . whereas the answer thinketh it not good , to bear witnesse against what we hear not with our own ears ; . to give sentence against a matter , is more then simply to bear witnesse against it . and how few judges throughout the world , have heard those words , whether treasonable , or of other demerit , with their own ears , which they have sentenced according to the law ? . a query , or question is not properly or directly , especially in our english dialect , either bearing witnesse against , either thing , or person ; nor yet a giveing sentence against either ; but rather the searching out of the truth in some case , or other , in order to a sentence . . how few ministers of the gospel have heard with their own ears the wo●ds of those errours or heresies , against which notwithstanding they bear witnesse in their ministry from time , to time , and are blamelesse ? . an accusation even against an elder , may under two or three witnesses , lawfully be received ; how much more under twenty ? . ( and lastly ) suppose a man were present , where words are spoken within his hearing , yet may hee possibly mistake , and verily think that he hears , such , or such , words spoken , which yet were not spoken . there may be deceptio audi●ûs , as well as visûs . and i know no reason but why the consonant report of a considerable part of a full auditory touching such or such words spoken in their presence , should be altogether as good a foundation for me to build a belief upon , that the words were indeed spoken , as an hearing of them with mine own ears , according to the usual manner of my hearing . but this is of very slender aff 〈…〉 i●y with the main design of the query . iii. whether , a mans conscience bearing him witness in the holy ghost , that his heart is upright with god , and that he unfeignedly purposeth and desires to do all the good upon earth , whilest he abideth amongst men , which god shall any ways enable him unto ; ought not such a person , even in conscience towards god , and out of love and genuiness of affection to his generation , embrace and accept of all such opportunities , and advantages of standing , for the promotion of his work , which god shall by any providence of his offer unto him ? or when god called moses up to the top of the mount ▪ ( exod. . . ) had it been meet for him to have answered , nay ; but i will serve thee faithfully beneath in the valley ? or is it not a grand detriment , or loss , unto the world , when princes ( as solomon speaketh ) walk as servants on the earth ; i. e. when men of noble principles , of publique spirits , whose hearts and souls are in travel with the wealth , peace , and prosperity of the world round about them , who are shap'd and form'd ( as it were ) on purpose by god himself for rule and government , shall want a stage whereon to act like princes , or be perswaded to enjoy themselves in privacy and retirement ? or in case the sun should be over-ruled to change place with the moon , should not the world have cause in abundance to lament the change ? or had his tabernacle been pitch'd in any inferior orb , beneath that , wherein it is now placed by god , could the earth have rejoyced in his light at that rate , which now it doth ? or had he been in any capacity to inrich the inhabitants thereof with his treasures , as they are now inriched by him ? or if a candle should creep under a bushel , when there is a candlestick provided and set on the table for it , should not they in the house have much more reason to be offended at it , then well pleased ? or is it not a secret guilt or consciousness in the generality of men of their own narrowchestedness , and self-ward propensions , which make them jealous that other men are , and will be found , in the same condemnation with them ; and that no man coming where he may without much danger serve himself , will be much intent upon the service of other men , further then his own secular interest shall super-intend and advise him ? this query , being the last , is supposedly slain by the sharp sword of this answer . the flattery of the present power doth not become the author , who hath oft times approved himselfe not to be the servant of men . but oh ! who hath now bewitched him to appear in this kind to strengthen the hands of the wicked , and to make their heart sad , whom god hath not sadded . this answer , like the head of a polipus , hath a mixture of good , and bad , in it . the first words of it contein a worthy and christian admonition ; viz. that the flattery of the present power doth not become the author ; onely the application of it is reflexive , if not aspersive , without cause . the next words , that this author hath oft times approved himself not to be the servant of men , contain a friendly and christian testimony . but the words remaining are gall and vinegar given unto me , and my betters , to drink ; but oh , who hath bewitched him &c. but might not i , had i pleasure in such hard sayings , upon much more equitable grounds , admiringly complain , and demand : but oh ! who hath bewitched the answerer , to appear in this kind to weaken the hands of the righteous , and to make their heart sad , whom god hath not sadded ? more particularly ; . to the implyed charge of flattering the present power , it is a burthen laid upon my sound shoulder : in which respect it little pincheth , or paineth me . where the skin is whole , vinegar poured on smarteth not . the truth is , that i am , both naturally , and supernaturally , so farre indispoto flatter any inch of the greatnesse of this world , that i am still put to my supernaturals to afford unto great men , so much as common and meet respects and civilities . luther professed that for twenty years together he never felt the least motion in his heart towards covetousnesse : i may , as in the presence of god , angels , and men , professe and say ; since i first knew what the world , and the greatnesse of it , meant , i never found my heart tempting me so much as to such a compliance with any great person whatsoever , which yet is warrantable enough , and which i am farre from , either reproveing , or disliking , in another . yea i have been inclined ( and am not yet much altered in my inclination ) to look upon the generality of great men , rather as faeces mundi , the dreggs and retriment of the world , and the reproach of mankind , then as worthy the applications of sober men unto them . and they who have best known me from my youth up untill now , will ( i presume ) very freely give this testimony of me , that what other weaknesse or undue cariages soever they have ob , served in me , they never found me adulterously inclinedto familiarities , or correspondings , with great men , much lesse to any adulatory comportments with them . this notwithstanding i must confesse , that when i have met with any thing of the divine nature , any thing worthy a christian indeed in a great man , i have , occasionally , and according to the best of my understanding to avoid offence , endeavoured to nourish , strengthen , and increase it ; and ( possibly ) in doing this , i have made the most of it , and ( probably ) more , then some others judg the true value , or extent of it to be . nor do i think that the apostle paul himself was very farre from such a strein , as this , when he addressed himself thus to agrippa : king agrippa , beleevest thou the prophets ? i knovv that thou beleevest . . although it be most true , that flattery of the present power doth not become the author , yet the representing of the present power , unto others , and especially unto those who ought to live in subjection to it , in the true shape of it , and with those desireable and commendable things in it , which are proper and likely to render this subjection , the more niturall , willing , and free , is nothing but what well become both the author of the queries , and the answerer also . and what the present query doth more then this , the answerer may with a much better judgement and conscience , number amongst things which are no● then terme it , flattery . therefore , . the answerer had very little cause to demand with an , oh ! who hath be witched me ? i am able to give a reasonable and sober account unto any man , of what i have either done , or said , in the query . this account i have given already in part , and am ready to account further , when required . therefore if i was bewitched , when i conceived and drew up the query , it was , not sathan , or the greatnesse of this world ; but god , or the spirit of sobernesse and truth , who bewitched me . . the person , whose hand ( as i suppose ) i am charged to strengthen , deserves both from the answerer , and from the whole houshold of faith in the land , a farre better stile , then that of , wicked . but the common saying is ; regium est malè audire cum bene f●ceris ; it is prince-like to be evill spoken of , when a man hath done well . or if the term , wicked be specificall , not personal , so that the meaning of the charge be , that i strengthen the hands ●f the wicked partie of men in the land ; my defence is , that the strengthening of the hands of a good migistrate to execute judgem●nt and justice in his place , is not to strengthen the hands of wicked men , at least not in wickednesse . yet ( to speak the truth ) my arch-design as well in this , as in all the rest of the queries , was not to strengthen the hand of any magistrate , good , or bad , but to strengthen the hand of the great body of the people in the land to that subjection under the present government , which upon good grounds , and next to u●questionable , i know w●ll be if universally exhibited , at least their [ civill ] happinesse and peace . . ( and lastly ) whereas i am charged , to make their heart sad , whom god hath not sadded ; my plea is , that certeinly god is willing that their heart should be made sad , who will be sadded with the truth ; yea , in as much as he is the author not onely of the truth , but of all seasonable speakings of the truth , he may very properly and truly be said to make the heart sad of all such , who a●e sadded by such speakings of the truth . the heart of the corinthians was made sorry , or sad , by that epistle which ▪ paul wrote unto them concerning their incestuous member : butought paul in this case to be challenged , that he made the heart of those sad , whom god had not sadded ? if either the answerer , or any other in his behalf , can fairly shew and prove , that any thing asserted , or ( necessarily ) supposed , in any of the queries , is either contrary to the truth , or unseasonably delivered , the author is well content that all that shall die by the hand of the demonstration ; neither shall he make lamentation over it , but rather over his own ignorance , or inconsideratenesse , in delivering it four new querjes super-added to the former . i. whether are not the just rights , liberties , and interest of the people , better , and more clearly asserted and secured unto them , by the present government , and by the published articles and constitutions hereof , then ever they were formerly ? or is not the truth hereof in all the materiall points or parts of government , as in the choice of their supreme or legislative authority ( i mean , their parliaments ) from time to time , the absolutenesse of this authority , being disincumbered and freed from the obstructions super-intendencie of a negative voice in another , in the choice of the members of the council of state for the future ( and after the conveening of the next parliament ) and so again , in the militia ( with some other particulars ) is not this truth ( i say ) that the liberties and interest of the people , are , in all these particulars , with as much care , wisdome , and saithfulnesse of contrivance , as readily can be imagined , provided for by the constitutions of the present government , demonstrated above all reasonable contradiction in a discourse lately published , under the title of , a true state of the case of the commonwealth ? ii. whether was there , or is there , any other way , course , or means , so promising in the eye of humane probability , and discourse , whereby the army and the principal members thereof , who stood , and still stand , most signally and solemnly engaged by many promises and publique declarations , to contribute their utmost endeavours to settle the nation in righteousnesse , freedome , and peace ; might , or yet may , performe their ingagements in this kind to the best advantage , as by reducing the nation , and common-wealth thereof , to that form , or kind , of government , unto which by the good hand of divine providence it is now reduced , considering how un-successfull in respect of any competent satisfaction given to the nation , our late parliaments have been ? or , in case the late government by parliaments onely , continuing , the tranquillity , peace , and safety of the nation , or the liberties of the people of god in it , should have miscarried , or deeply suffered thereby , could the army , or the said principal members of it , have given any tolerable account , either to god , or men , of their oscitancy , neglect or sitting still , considering . under how many sacred ingagements they were to do their uttermost for the prevention of these evils , and . that god had now entrusted them with an opportunity of great hope for their prevention , as viz. directing them to some such change of the government , as that which is now in being ? or in case it should be supposed that it is not the sence , or judgement , of other men , that the government now erected is any whit more promising of such a prevention , then that by parliaments onely ( however our late parliaments have not prospered in the work ) is it reasonable or meet to desire , that the army and the chief heads thereof , who were contrary-minded , should walk by the light of other men , in opposition to their own ? iii. whether is it the kind , or form , of the present government , or any excesse , or extent , of power , or revenue , state-splendor , or the like , conferred upon one man , at which the dis-satisfied , or the greater part of them , find themselves so much aggrieved and discontented , as the person , in whom the supreme place , or office , in this government , is vested ? or would they not have been very well apaid and satisfied , had there been some man according to their own hearts , and of whom they might have had hopes that he would haue fulfilled all their pleasure , invested with all that dignity , power , and all other state accommodations , which are now cast upon him , who hath the preheminence in the present government ; yea though the terms and constitutions of the government had been the same , which now they are ? iiii. whether was there the same reason to plead subjection to the power of the late king , especially when the parliament had declared themselves in opposition to him , which there is now to plead subjection to the present power ; considering . that the soveraignty , or supremacy of power , was never regularly , or according to the law of nature , vested in the person of the king , but in the people , whose lawfull agents and trustees , the parliament were ; . that the people , to whom the supremacie of authority and power ( as hath been said ) regularly appertaineth , having in parliament questioned their cheif steward , or servant ( the king ) for male-administration of his trust and power , and declared themselves in arms against him , he ( the said king ) was not in a plenary or peaceable possession of that power , which had been committed unto , or vested , in him ; whereas the power vested at present in him , who is the head , or cheif , in the government that now is , is fully , peaceably , quietly , and without any forceible contest or opposition , possest by him ? or in case it be , or were , lawfull , when and whilest , two adverse powers are st●iving for mastery in a nation , to comport with , and strengthen the hand of , that , against the other , the prevailing of which he truly judgeth to be most expedient for the publique , doth it follow from hence that therefore it is lawfull to deny subjection unto such a power , which god so farre countenanceth , and blesseth , as not to suffer any competritresse to rise up with any strength considerrble against it ? or had it been regular and justifiable , for the power it self of the people in parliament , ( how much lesse for any other ) either it selfe to disobey , or to countenance , or abet disobedience in any others , to the authority of the said king , in his lawful command , in case he had walked in the execution of his trust & power , with that due comportment with the publique good , which became him ? or had the trustees of the people in parliament been responding , or faithfull to their trust , had they interrupted , opposed , or dissolved such a government , under which the nation had lived , and was ( in all good probability ) likely still to live , in wealth and peace , with the enjoyment of all their just liberties and freedoms ? errata . page . l. . read junius . . l. . r. withall . . l. . r. palpably . . l. . r. superstitions . l. . r. reason . . l ▪ . r. ceasing . l. . r. whic● . l. . r. he . . l. . r. and . l. . r. adulter● . . l ▪ . r. author . l. . r. portraicture . . l. . r. calculatio● . . l. . r. businesse . . l. . r. this . . l. . dele , and . l ▪ . r. m●y be . ▪ l. . r. they build , groūd their l. ▪ r. passible . l. . dele from . . l. . dele that . . l. . r. prevent . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a psa. . , . b mat. . . a cor . b dan. . . notes for div a e- answer . reply . act. . . . b rom. . . answer . reply , or anim adversiō . a ac sane hoc verbo mihi videtur apostolus voluisse tollere frivolā hominū curiositatē , qui saepe solent inquirere quo jure adepti fuerint potestatem , qui rerum potiuntur . satis autem nobis esse debet , quod praesunt . non enim conscenderunt sua ipsi virtute hoc fastigium , sedmanu domini sunt impositi . calv. ad rom. . . cum igitur quaeritur cui parendum , non est spectandum qualis sit qui potestatem excercet , nec quo jure vel injuria quis potestatem invaserit , quave ratione eam administret , sed tantum si potestatem habeat . si enim quis potestate pollet , jam indubitatum est illum à deo eam potestatem accepisse . m. bacer . in rom. . . answer . reply and animadversion . a per. . . c gal. . d su●t eni● semper ●umultuosi spiritus ▪ qui regnum christi non bene extolli credunt , ●isi aboleantur omn●s terr●nae potestates : nec ●●ertate per ips●m data se●●ui 〈…〉 si quodvis humanae servitut●● jugum excusseriat . cal 〈…〉 ad rom. . . a omnis lex ord●natur ad communem hominum salutem , & in tantum obtinet vim & rationem legis : secundum vero quod ab hoc deficit , virtutem obligandi non habet . vnde juris peritus dicit , quod nulla ratio juris , aut aequitatis benignitas patitur , ut quae salubriter pro salute hominum introducuntur , ca nos duriori interpretatione contra ipsorum commodum perducamus ad severitatem . contingit autem multoties , quod al quid observari communi saluti est utile , ut in pl●ribus , quod tamen aliqu●bus casibus est maxime nocivum aq● . . q. . a. . vnde si emergat casus , in quo observatio talis legis sit damnosa communi saluti , non est observanda . ibid. necessitas dispensationem habet annexam ; quia necessitas non subditur legi . ibid. b james . answer . reply and animadversion . by wrath so hindered is the mind , that truth it cannot see , or find . mic. . c ad hoc quod teneatur ●omofacere , quod promisit , requiritur quod omnia immutata permaneant : alioquin , nec fuit mendax in promittendo , quia promisit quod habebat in mente , subintellectis debitis conditionibus . nec etiam est infidelis non implendo , quod promisit , quia eaedem conditiones non extant . senec● . d benefic . l. . c. . ad quintum decendum , quod ille qui aliquid promittit , si habeat animum faciendi quod promittit , non mentitur : quia non loquitur contraid , quod gerit in mente . si ve●o non faciat quod promisit , viditur 〈…〉 fideliter agere per hoc , quod animum mutat . potest tamen excusari ex duobusvno modo , si promisit id , quod manifeste est illicitum , quia promittendo p●●cavit , mutando autem prepositum , bene facit . alio modo , si sint mutatae conditiones personaram & negotiorum — vnde & apostolus non est mentitus , qui non ivit corinthum , quo se iturum esse promiserat , ut dicitur , cor. . aqu. . q. . a. . answer reply , & animadversiō . a deut . . a dan. . . b ier. . . answer . reply and animadversion . a num. . b a gal. . . answer . reply , & animadversiō . a thes. . answer rely and animadversion . answer . reply , & anim adversiō . a exod. ● . answer . reply & animadverti . answer reply & animadversi . answer . reply , & animadversiō . a jud. . . b tim. . c pet. . d jam. . . e jam. . . answer reply & animadver. . answer reply & animadver. . a act. . . b act. . . c act. . d act. . a act. . answer reply , & animadversiō . a tim. . . . &c. answer reply , & animadversiō . answer reply & animadver. . notes for div a e- answer reply & animadver. . answer reply , & animadversiō . innocency and truth triumphing together; or, the latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by william prynne esquire, called, a full reply, &c. beginning at the foot of p. . of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, certain brief animadversions on mr. john goodwins theomachia. wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. licensed and printed according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) innocency and truth triumphing together; or, the latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by william prynne esquire, called, a full reply, &c. beginning at the foot of p. . of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, certain brief animadversions on mr. john goodwins theomachia. wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. licensed and printed according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by matthew simmons, for henry overton, at his shop in popes-head-alley, london : . "to the christian reader" signed: j.g., i.e. john goodwin. annotation on thomason copy: the in the imprint date is crossed out; " "; "by john goodwin"; " th january". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng prynne, william, - . -- full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government. puritans -- controversial literature -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion innocency and truth triumphing together ; or , the latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse , lately published by william prynne esquire , called , a full reply , &c. beginning at the foot of p. . of the said discourse , with this title or superscription , certain brief animadversions on mr. john goodwins theomachia . wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined ; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply . qui innocentiae debitum servat , poenitentiae non solvit usuram , chrysost . nolo mihi imperet ille vel ille , qui me opprimere potest , docere non potest , hieronymus . non est delicata in deum , & secura confessio : qui in me credit , debet sanguinem suum sundere ibidem . ignosci potuit simpliciter errantibus : post inspirationem verò & revelationem factam , sine ignorantiae veniâ peccatur , cypr. ep. pios hoc nomen & titulum in mundo oportet gerere , quòd seditiosi ac schismatici , ac infinitorum malorum authores sunt , lutherus gal. c. . not that wee have dominion over your faith : but are helpers of your joy , cor. . . let us therefore , as many as be perfect , be thus minded : and if any of yee be otherwise minded , god shall reveale even the same unto you , phil. . . licensed and printed according to order . london ; printed by matthew simmons , for henry overton , at his shop in popes-head-alley , . to the unpartiall and unprejudic'd reader . am i therefore become your enemy , because i tell you the truth a , ( saith the first-born b , and yet the last born also c , of the apostles to his galathians ; ) the interrogation is a constructive assertion of two things . first , that to speak the truth in some cases , is very opportune to sinister interpretation , and apt to represent the speaker as a man of no benevolous or friendly comportance with those , to whom he so speaketh . the reason whereof seems to be this : errors and misprisions are many times very indulgent and bountifull to the flesh ; and he that incounters men under such injoyments , with the truth , seems to them rather to strike at these injoyments , then at the error or opinion , by whose consent they have first taken , and still keep possession of them . themselves esteeming the opinion of small value ( as well it deserves ) save onely in reference to those carnall gratifications ; are very apt to conceive that neither doe others so much minde that , or take offence at that , as at those priviledges or accommodations which they injoy by it : and this they judge to be a straine of an hostile inclination . secondly , the prementioned interrogation supposeth , that no manifestation or speaking of what truth soever unto men , simply as such , is any argument at all of want of affection , and that in the highest , unto them . the reason is , because there is no truth , which being imbraced , and honoured with sutable practise , but will give farre better wages and consideration to her servants in due time , then any error whatsoever . yea , the truth is , that the greater breach , or spoyle , a truth makes in any mans worldly possessions or enjoyments , it is of so much the richer and the more advantagious concernment unto him , and will honour him the more abundantly . it is the manner and guise of divine truth , to pull downe houses built with firres and brick , and to build them up againe with cedars and hewne stones . he that deals much either in the discoverie , ( or recovery rather ) or inforcement of such truths , which are opposed in the world , not onely by errors and contrary misprisons , but by secular accommodations also , as of honour , power , riches , pleasures , or the like , takes a very direct course to make himself conformable to the image of his saviour , who being so great a benefactor to the world , was yet numbred amongst transgressors . to attempt the casting downe of such imagination , which do not onely exalt themselves in the minds of men , but contribute also to the exaltation of men themselves in the world , be they never so extravagant or eccentricall to the truth , is an undertaking of almost as doubtfull a presage , as they that speak proverbs are wont to represent by the taking a lion by the beard , or an elephant by the tooth . and did not the god of truth umpire ( and that with an high hand ) amongst the thoughts and counsells of the sons of men , and put many a by ingredient into his providence of soveraign reliefe to those , whose hearts are set , and hands lift up to magnifie such truths , which being advanced are like to doe justice in the world , and to reduce all usurpations and unrighteous detainments amongst men , the earth would not be able to beare the words of such men ; and the world soone become too hot a climate for truths of such a complexion . it is a matter of somewhat a sad contemplation , ( and yet in part , delightfull also , viz. as those oracles of heaven , the scriptures , are mightily asserted and vindicated like themselves thereby ) to see , what commotions , tumults , and combustions are presently raised in the minds and spirits of men upon the birth ( or resurrection rather ) of any truth into the world , concerning which there is the least jealousie , that in case it should reigne , it would rack them from off the lees of their old customes , or compell them to a restitution of what they have unjustly taken , and peaceably injoyed for a long time , or any wayes expose them to any outward sufferings , or disaccommodations in the world ; to see , what hurryings up and downe , what ingaging of parties , what inquiring after parts and abilities , what rembling over authors old and new , what incensing of authoritie , what streynings of wits and consciences , what slighting of solid arguments , what evading substantiall and cleare interpretations of scripture , what magnifying of those that are streined and farre fetch'd in their stead , what casting abroad of calumnies and reproaches , what incrustations , and misrepresentations of opinions , sayings , practises , actions , what shiftings , what blendings , what colourings , what pretendings , what disgracings , yea , what conventings , what persecutions , what evill intreatings of men , what appealings to fire , sword , prisons , banishment , confiscations , and all to turn a beam of light and glorie , into darknes & shame , to keep a new-born truth from ruling over them . as soone as herod the king heard that christ was borne , and that wise men were come from the east to worship him , inquiring after him , as a king ; the text saith , that he was troubled , and all jerusalem with him : and how unnaturall and bloudy a design was there presently put in execution , to prevent the reigning of him that was but now borne into the world ? that one , who yet was their lawfull king , might not reigne over them , many poore infants ( innocents altogether in this ) were not suffered to live amongst them . this scene also was acted in germany , when god first made luther as life from the dead a vnto the doctrine of free justification and remission of sins ; a doctrine not so much opposed by the popish tenet concerning the vertue and validitie of papall indulgences , as by the b sacred thirst of that gold and silver which the trade of such merchandize formerly driven by the grand seignior of rome and his factors throughout the christian world , brought into their coffers in that bewitching and transporting abundance . reader , of any wrong done to my self , i will not complaine : but i know a man , who hath been forsaken of his friends , found those of his own house to be his enemies , who hath been reviled , traduced , reproached , way-laid , by tongues , by pens , by practises , reported to have lost his wits , abilities , parts , suffered losse of his due and necessary subsistence , wrongfully deteined from him , and for which he hath laboured faithfully , brought before rulers and magistrates , represented to soveraigne authoritie , as a wilfull and presumptuous underminer of their undoubted priviledges , and that diametrally contrary to his vow and covenant ; besides twenty more hard sayings and practises of men against him ; and all this for no other cause , upon none other ground or exception , but onely because he holds forth such a truth ( as in all his heart and all his soule he is verily perswaded ) which , if entertained , is like to blesse the world , though it be as by fire , i meane by casting downe the present thoughts , and crossing the present desires and designs of many in it : of the injuries & indignities offered to such a man , i have cause ( with many others ) to complaine ; but for any sufferings or evill intreaties of mine own from men , i count it beneath my ingagements to him , who strengtheneth me to doe and to suffer all things a , to stoop to take up any lamentation or complaint . in these leaves following , i make payment of a debt unto thee , contracted by a promise and ingagement made in my late briefe defence , which i styled , innocencies triumph ; with some small additionall consideration , for thy present forbearance . for in the former sections till about pag. . i animadvert upon some select passages in the former part and body of that piece , in whose tayle lies the sting of my accusation ; the pulling out whereof , is my taske from the third section unto the end . in the carriage of the discourse , i projected these foure ; brevitie , persecuitie , moderation , satisfaction . how i have performed or prospered in my designe , is a case now presented unto the great judicatorie of the world to judge and determine . i shall not court thy favour or approbation : if thou wilt deale hardly either with the truth or her friends , at thine own perill be it : injure what thou canst , we shall be repaired ; yea , and have all our forbearance and delay , in full consideration and recompence . yet a very little while , and he that doth come , will come , and will not tarry a : and behold , his reward is with him b . in the day of whose coming , however thou shalt deale with me in the interim , i cordially wish thee peace , and that lifting up of the head , after which it shall never hang downe more . from my study in coleman-street , jan. . . thine , all that thy soule desireth , in the love of the truth , j. g. errata . pag. . line . dele , only , and close the parenthesis at the word , government . p. . l. . dele , ) . p. . l. . for vere , r. vero . p. . l. . for apparent , r. apparan . p. . l. . for distances , r. disturbances ; ibid. l. . for disturbances , r. disturbance . p. . l. . for , ingagements , r. inducements . p. . l. . for , leave , r. give . p. . l. . for , in ordinary , r. in an ordinary . p. . l. . for , faith , r. truth . p. . l. . for . praise , r. honour . p. . l. . for , still , r. till . p. . l. . for , is more , r. is of more . p. . l. . in the margent , for ipsa , r. ipsam . p. . l. . for , precedent , r. president . ibid. l. . for guiltie , r. guilt . p. . l. . those words , and lastly , to be closed in a parenthesis . p. . l. . for , together by , r. together for by . p. . l. . for , the , r. that . p. . l. . for , exemptively , r. executively . some other lesser mistakes , as in points , parentheses , or the like , the reader is desired to pardon , and amend . innocency and truth triumphing together : or , the latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse , lately published by william prynne esquire , called , a full reply , &c. the gentleman who hath vouchsafed me the honour of so noble an antagonist , as himself , p. . of his full reply , hath this ingenuous saying : i presume my friends are so ingenuous , as not to be offended with mee for reproving only their errours with ingenuous freedome , in which i manifest my self their greatest friend , because i neither spare nor flatter them in their mistakes . i cannot doubt , but that hee will put the same interpretation upon the ingenuous freedome of his friend in the same kind , which hee presumes his friends will put upon his ; and will make no other construction of my not-sparing or flattering him in his mistakes , then as a manifestation of my self to be his greatest friend . the truth is , that if he shall put any other construction upon them , but this , it is a signe that he understands not the dialect or language of mine intentions . upon the stock of so faire and rich an incouragement , as this , i conceive it very proper for mee to graffe ( at least ) the presentation of some errors and mistakes ( more then so called ) to master prynnes view , which himself had first scatteringly , presented to the view of the world , in his late piece , called , a full reply , &c. and will ( i trust ) assist my pen with his in the censure and condemnation of them ; i make no question , but that he will acknowledge it an errour and mistake in any man , to confute concealed errours and mistakes with those that are open and professed . hee makes a sad complaint ( in the very beginning of his work ) that his condition still hath been to have his best actions and publique services ( he means performed by his pen ) misconstrued and traduced ; and yet a few lines after , hee affirms that his twelve questions touching church-government , gave ample satisfaction to many truly religious , of all ranks and qualities , who returned him speciall thanks . he that can give men , yea , the best of men , men truly religious , yea , not a few of these men neither , but many , and that of all ranks and qualities satisfaction , yea , ample satisfaction ( and receive thanks accordingly ) only by asking questions , seems to write with fortunatus his pen ; and may well beare the burthen of much misprision from other men , out of the strength of the joy of this rare successe . ordinarily , men of greatest worth and learning , have much ado to give satisfaction , by the most elaborate and exact resolutions ; which is another manner of service to the world , then asking questions is : a weak man may ask moe questions in an houre , then seven wise men can answer in seven yeeres . and when hee saith , that our saviour both instructed and refuted his opposites and auditors , by demanding questions only , i conceive it is a mistake : as for those scriptures which hee cites to prove this , some of them being more then half chapters , most of them very large portions of chapters ; he that shall please to peruse them , shall finde more in them , then demanding questions only . no question demanded by our saviour was further instructive , then as it gave occasion to an answer . it is the marrow of the answer , not the bone of the question that nourisheth with instruction ; and luke . . ( the first scripture alledged by him in this cause ) it is said , that all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers , not at his questions . notwithstanding , we acknowledge aristotles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very usefull and serviceable for the advancement of knowledge ; only herein we must crave pardon , if we judge it no signe of any depth or thoroughness in an argument or subject , to be imperious and sore in asking questions about it , and but weak and superficiall in giving answers . again , whereas hee supposeth , p. . that independent ministers and congregations lay claim to a soveraign temporall all jurisdiction , for the prescribing and setting up of a church-government ; certainly it is a mistake , ( whatsoever it is more ) they claim to jurisdiction at all , much lesse any temporall jurisdiction , least of all any soveraign jurisdiction , to prescribe unto any ( much less , to command or injoyn under penalties , which is proper to soveraign temporall jurisdiction ) any church-government whatsoever : they only submit to that good and holy and perfect will of god , for the regulation of themselves , in point of order amongst themselves , as far as he hath pleased to inlighten them with the knowledge thereof ; without taking any offence at others , for being contrary-minded to them , and without the least semblance or shew of claiming any authoritative or temporall power to impose or force what they practise themselves upon others . again , whereas because some of the independents ( as he chargeth them , p. . whether truly or no , i can neither affirm , nor deny ) refuse to heare the scriptures read in our churches , hee thinks to evict this practice of theirs , by proving ( and that by no lesse then thirteen texts of scripture ) that publique reading of them is an ordinance of god ; i conceive it is a defect or mistake in point of proof . because , if such refusall be made by any , it is not made either upon denying or questioning , whether publike reading of the scriptures , be an ordinance of god ; but either upon questioning , whether the bare reading of them in publique , without giving the sense of them , or framing some exhortation upon them , or the like , be an ordinance of god ( which some of the scriptures cited by himself , particularly , neh. . . make very questionable ) or else upon this reason and ground of conscience , that a man may very safely refuse an inferiour accommodation for his soul , when he hath a lawfull opportunity to injoy a superiour . again , whereas he affirms , p. . the only point in question ( i presume he means about church-government only to be , whether the independent modell alone be that exact , unalterable form of church-government , which christ hath punctually & particularly set down for all christian nations , churches to follow ; and yet both in the same page afterwards , and in severall passages besides in this discourse , denies that there is any such form of government , so punctually and particuarly set down by christ , doubtles it cannot but be a mistake , if it amounts not to an error : for they that hold the independent modell ( as hee calleth it ) to be the only form of church-government , which christ hath so punctually and particularly set down , must needs hold withall , that christ hath set down a form of church-government upon such terms , i mean , which is , and must be , unalterable . now mr. prynne , ( with many others of his judgement , in this controversie ) denying this latter opinion , as well as the former , evident it is , that the former cannot be the only point in question . but the truth is , that besides both the one point & the other , there are many others in question , though possibly not of that difficulty or importance : yea , himself in the following page , propounds another question , differing from this , to which notwithstanding hee appropriates the same honour , and affirms it to be the sole question too . again , p. . whereas he determines , moderated or regulated episcopacy , to be the same with presbyterie ; i conceive this determination will hardly be voted orthodox in the assembly it self , nor in the generall assembly of the church of scotland . for my part , though i cannot approve of it as matter of truth , yet for matter of inconvenience otherwise , i have nothing to charge it with . again , whereas ( in the same page ) in case the parliament by the synods advice , should unanimously establish a moderated episcopacy , as most consonant to the scriptures , he professeth for himself , that hee shall readily submit unto it ; and withall demands of the anti-querist , why not hee , and all others ? as if either the consonancy of a practice to the scriptures , or the example of one man submitting unto it as consonant thereunto , were a sufficient ground for all men whatsoever to submit likewise unto it , without any more ado ; this savours strongly of that error , which comports so well with the practice of some , viz. that if men in authority shall conclude and injoyn any thing , as consonant to the word of god , all men are bound readily to submit unto it , without asking any question for conscience sake ; yea , or whether they see either consonancy or dissonancy in it thereunto . again , whereas he owns this saying , p. . as the naturall issue lawfully begotten of the body or soule ( th' one ) of his own position , that politicians and statesman are fit to be consulted with to suit a church-government best to the civill state ; certainly it is no assertion to be rejoyced in . for as the apostles made their enemies themselves judges in this point between them , whether it was meet to obey god , or them : so shall i willingly abide the arbitration of any of all those that make but the least conscience of fearing god and his king ( christ , ) whether the government of christs church and kingdome should condescend , and be compelled by politicians and statesmen to doe obeysance to civill states in accommodating them ; or whether the government of these should not rather veyle , and doe homage unto that , and deny themselves in their most indeered principles and maximes of state , to give all accommodation and honour unto it . the truth is , that the government of christs kingdome in a civill state , will never do any great thing for it , except it first receive accommodation from it . the truth knowes no compliance , but onely with those that submit to it . whereas ( pag. . ) he placeth the whole representative as well church as state of england in the parliament , though i dare not gain-say it , fearing lest mr. pryn , claiming ( as it should seem ) a priviledge to make the privileges of parliament what he pleaseth , should make it a presumptuous and wilfull undermining of the undoubted priviledges of parliament by the very roots : yet i must ingenuously professe , that it is a notion which i know not how to procure quarter for in my brain , as yet . what i may doe hereafter when the gentleman shall bestow more cost and pains upon it to reconcile the disproportion which for the present it carrieth to my understanding , i will not predetermine . but none of all the authors or books that ever yet i was debtor unto , for any grain or scruple of that knowledge wherewith god hath pleased to recompence my labour in studying , ever licensed mee to call any assembly the representative church of any state or kingdome wherein there is not so much as any one church-officer to be found whereas he affirmes it ( in the same page ) a truth so cleare , that no rationall man , good christian , or subject , can deny it , that the whole representative church and state of england in parliament , have sufficient authoritie by gods law to over-rule and bind all , or any particular members or congregations of it , as well as the major part of an independent congregation , power to over-vote and rule the lesser part , and to order yea , bind any of their particular members ; though for the danger aforesaid , it be not ( perhaps ) so safe for me simply to call the latter assertion touching the comparison between the two powers , either an error or a mistake ; yet that this assertion should be a truth so royally qualified , that no reasonable man , or good christian can deny it , seemes not so reasonable . the reason is , because in an independent congregation , all the members by free and voluntary consent have submitted themselves to the regulation and order of the whole body , or ( which is the same ) of the major part of it : and therefore this body having received a lawfull power in a lawfull way , for the reiglement of her respective members , may lawfully exercise it according to the tenor and true intent of the delegation of it : whereas there are many thousands in the church and state of england , who by mr. prynnes owne acknowledgement ( p. . line . . ) have not given any such consent for their regulation in matters ecclesiasticall , and which concerne religion , unto the parliament ; yea , and there are many thousands more besides those which hee there describes and intends , who will not owne any such resignation . therefore the difference between the one case and the other , is very broad , and no lesse considerable , so that a reasonable man may without any dispraise to his reason , and a good christian , without any prejudice to the goodnesse of his christianity , demurre a while before judgement upon the case . besides , there is no question , or ground of doubting , but that a good christian may lawfully , and with a good conscience , submit himself unto a godly , able , and faithfull pastor , together with his people , whom he hath good ground to judge godly , and faithfull also , as well for their edification in their most holy faith , as for the inspection & regulation of themselves in matters of life and conversation : but whether it be lawfull to submit to any man , or any rank or association of men , ( especially of men , of whose sufficiencie and faith fulnesse in the things of god , and jesus christ , we have either but a very slender or no testimony at all , yea whose persons are altogether unknowne to us ) in matters which concerne the worship and service of god , cannot but be a question , and that of great moment , to all considering and conscientious men , who are not already satisfied in the negative part of it . the apostles doe not onely permit , but give it in charge to christians in church-fellowship , to submit themselves one to another in the feare of god , eph. . . i. to be yeelding , and tractable , easie to be intreated one by another . and , submit your selves every man unto another , pet. . . if one man ought to submit to another man in this kind , much more ought one to submit unto many , and most of all to the whole society of saints whereof he is a member . but as touching submission unto any man , or men whatsoever in matters which concerne the worship and service of god , the scripture is so farre from imposing this upon any man , that it imposeth the contrary , and that with great emphasis and weight , call no man your father upon earth , ( is our saviours owne charge , matth. . . ) for one is your father which is in heaven . and in the preceding verse , be ye not called rabbi : for one is your master ( or doctor ) even christ , and ye all are brethren . and the apostle , cor. . . yee are bought with a price , be ye not the servants of men . he speakes of a servility or subjection in judgement and conscience , to the decisions or determinations of men in matters of conscience and religion . and whosoever doth submit or subject himselfe in things of this nature unto any man or men whosoever , that is , resigne up his judgement and conscience to be ordered , obliged , and tied , by the meere authority or magistery of men in such things , call's men fathers on earth , makes himselfe a servant unto men : and consequently makes himself a transgressor both of our saviours injunction and charge in this behalf , and of his apostles also . thirdly , he that submits himselfe to a pastor and congregation of saints for such regulation as hath been mentioned , is presumed to know and understand before-hand , of what spirit both the one and the other are ; how matters appertaining to the worship and service of god , are carried , managed , and ordered amongst them ; so that he may with the full concurrence and consent of his judgement and conscience , submit himselfe unto them , as touching communion with them in their practice in this kind : but what any synod , assembly , or court of men will determine or enjoyn in such things , cannot be known before-hand by any man ; and consequently , no man can with a good conscience submit himselfe unto them , as touching any of their determinations or decisions , untill he first understands what they are , and whether according to the light and judicature of his conscience , agreeable to the word of god. fourthly , in case a pastor and congregation shall afterwards so farre alter and vary from that posture either in doctrine or practice , wherein they stood , when a man first joyned and submitted himselfe unto them , that hee cannot with the peace of his conscience walk any longer with them , hee may with leave obtained , or otherwise if by request it cannot be obtained , withdraw himselfe without any inconvenience , from their communion , and incorporate himselfe elswhere , as he judgeth best . this may bee done with farre lesse trouble and inconvenience , then ordinarily a man upon a dislike of his parochial pastor , can remove out of one parish into another . but when such things concerning the worship and service of god , which a man cannot with a good conscience submit unto , shall be enacted and commanded , under mulcts and penalties by those that have power and authority over us , wee cannot refuse subjection hereunto , but at our perill , and with the sustaining of what detriment or dammage , whether in our estates , liberties , or otherwise , as the commanders shall please to impose . therefore the case between a particular congregation , and the representative body of a kingdome , is farre different . fifthly and lastly , the representative church and state of a kingdome , may ( and doth ordinarily ) differ from it selfe in poynt of judgement touching matters of religion ) at severall times , as much as heaven and earth . such bodies in the dayes of queene mary , and before , stood up for lordly episcopacie , which you confesse , page . that body which now is , hath by solemne covenant abjured . and besides , enacted many things concerning the worship & service of god , which other bodies of the same representation and power , have since repealed . and the nature and claim of such bodies as these in their severall successions , is , that what powersoever hath been either given unto , or exercised by any of the predecessors , of right appertains to the successor . so that suppose the representative body now in being , shall be freely and willingly submitted unto , as having a lawfull power to establish what they shall please in matters of religion , as most agreeable to the word of god : this submission doth not onely interesse or confirm them in this power , but in the consequence and construction of it , is the like interessing and confirmation in the same power , of all their successors , of what constitution or judgement soever they shall bee for matters of religion . whereas for particular independent congregations ( loquendum ut vulgus ) their present constitution being sound & safe , as touching their members , being all in the judgment of charity ( and discretion too ) persons of conscience , and of competent understanding , they are not like in an ordinary way of providence , to degenerate or decline in their successors : and besides , in case they should , their interest and authority over any of their members , may at any time , and under their greatest confirmations , be declin'd without any considerable dammage , or inconveence , as was formerly shewed . so that mr. prynnes truth now under consideration ( i meane his assertion so called ) is nothing so cleare , but that a rationall man may deny it ; yea , the more rationall a man is , he is the more like to deny it . the antiquerist having said , that the saints think christ alone is king over his churches , and hath not left them to substitutes , &c. whereas mr. prynne , page . replies thus ; if hee meanes it onely of matters of faith , or of internall government over the soules of men , it may pass as tolerable ; it is ( as i conceive ) an expression which may not pass as tolerable , being worse then an ordinary error , or then more then an ordinary mistake . he that calls any thing tolerable , must needs suppose it either to be evil , or inconvenient ( at the best . ) now if mr. prynne thinks it either evill or inconvenient , that christ should be king alone over his churches , in matters of faith and internall government of their soules , it is no marvell if he seeks to interesse men in a legislative power over his churches in respect of their externall government ; it is a marvell rather , that he seekes not to infringe his title and claime even to the internall government of their soules also , and that hee anoints not representative bodies of churches and states , with authority to repeale the articles of the old creed , and to enact another . whereas ( in the same page ) hee tells his antiquerist , that hee must renounce his oath of allegeance , his late protestation , and nationall vow and covenant , make foure or five canonicall scriptures apocrypha , with some such other mormolukies as these , if he thinkes christ to be king alone over his churches , in point of externall ecclesiasticall government , discipline , or order ; i conceive this consequence of his to be inconsequent & a mistake . for first , the scriptures he specifies , rom . . to . pet. . . . tit. . . tim. . , , , . speake nothing of ecclesiasticall government , nor of any subjection unto kings or rulers in matters of conscience , or religion ; but onely of that obedience which is due unto them in civill things : yea some of them ( the last by name ) not so much as of either . and secondly , for the nationall vow and covenant , doubtlesse they that took and sware that , did not abjure the absolute monarchicall independent power of christ over his churches , nor did they swear homage or fealty to any other lord or lords , but with a salvo jure , &c. saving the rights and priviledges of the lord paramount , jesus christ ; amongst which that is one of the most undoubted ones , to have the sole dominion over the faith and consciences of men , especially in things concerning the worship and service of god. and thirdly and lastly , for the oath of allegeance , and late protestation , either there is nothing contained in either of these , but what is of a cleare and perfect consistence with this sole dominion of christ over the faith and consciences of men : or if there be , the renouncing of them will be more honourable and safe for christians , then their taking of them was , or then their standing by their ingagement in that kind will be . but whereas ( page . ) he affirmes , that christ hath delegated his kingly power to christian kings , magistrates , and highest civill powers ; as likewise bequeathed his propheticall office unto ministers : these certo certius are errors in the highest , undermining ( i shall not abate , wilfully and presumptuously , in the reckoning ) the undoubted priviledges of the throne of jesus christ by the very roots . for are not the offices of christ incommunicable ? appropriable only unto him who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , god & man , and mediator ? or is christ retired from the throne of his glory , to live privatly as a recluse , to solace & enjoy himselfe in some solitary angle or by-corner of heaven ? or hath he eas'd his shoulder of that great burthen of the government of the world , which was laid by god upon it , devolving it upon the shoulders of others ? where is then the promise of the everlastingnesse of his kingdome , and of the continuance of his dominion throughout all ages ? and where is the prediction of his delivering up his kingdome unto his father , if he hath delivered it up ( or down rather ) unto men ? surely he means to call for it againe out of their hands , before that day . but if kings and magistrates have the kingly power of christ delegated unto them , they have all power given unto them both in heaven and earth , and consequently have not onely a right and lawfullnesse of authoritie to command as well all the angels of heaven , as men on earth , but also to incline and bow the hearts of both , to the willing execution & fulfilling of those commands . and if so , let them impose what ecclesiasticall government or discipline they please , they may , if they please , be obeyed and submitted unto upon what terms , with what willingnesse and readinesse , and by whom they desire . and if ministers be invested in the propheticall office of christ , how dares mr prynne refuse to hearken unto them ? or ingage himself in a theologicall warre against them , having no part or fellowship in this office himself ? will he subject the spirit of the prophets , yea , of those that prophecie in the authoritie , and by the vertue of the propheticall office of christ , unto himself , and his own spirit , being no prophet at all ? letentur tenebrae , erubescat lux . againe , whereas ( in the same page ) he votes , that if any man deny a certain odd kind of veritie ( so called and asserted by him ) he must renounce not onely his christianitie , but his allegeance and humanitie too ; i utterly renounce the consequence , conceiving it to be tantamont with an absolute mistake . for a man may deny , that every christian in point of conscience is bound by the expresse resolution of rom. . . pet. . , . ( with severall other scriptures as little to the purpose ) without any danger of blind obedience , to lawfull decreas , consonant to gods word , &c. without renouncing , yea , or so much as a shew of renouncing his christianitie ( and much more of his humanitie . ) for what hath a mans humanitie to doe with the expresse resolution of rom. . . to . ezra . . . josh . . , , &c. or what hath the expresse resolution of these and other texts , to preserve a mans christianitie from the danger of bind obedience , even to lawfull decrees , in case the lawfulnesse of them be not seene , nor so much as examined , by those that submit unto them ? a man is in the same danger of blind obedience , as well in respect of lawfull , as unlawfull decrees . yea , a man that after a serious and conscientious debate , shall upon a mistaken ground submit unto an unlawfull decree , acquits himself more like a christian , and with better acceptation unto god by following the light of his conscience upon such terms , then he that shall subject himself unto a lawfull decree , without knowing , or caring to know , what , why , or wherefore he so doth . againe , whereas ( in the same page ) he taxeth the anti-querist for presuming an oversight in the parliament and synod , before it be actually committed , and censures this ( imaginary ) act of his , as neither christian , charitable , nor any way of christ ; and for the proofe hereof , cites cor. . . . certainly , all this is an oversight , and nothing els but the presuming of an oversight , where none is . for he that saith thus , suppose the whole parliament and synod should erre in commanding a government , &c. doth not so much as suppose , much lesse presume , that either of them will so erre ; no more then the apostle paul , in saying , if christ be not risen a , presumes , that christ is not risen : least of all doth that text , cor. . . . prove that act or speech of the anti-querist here taxed , to be either unchristian , or uncharitable . nor is that marginall note in the same page excusable at any lower rate then a mistake of that kind , which they that speak sparingly , are wont to call an untruth ; which chargeth the independent party , that without discovery or proofe of their way , they will have the presbyterians blindly to submit unto it , as the onely way of christ . never was a poor innocent margin compell'd to carry a more guilty annotation then this . it is the first-born of abhorrencies in independency , to compell any man blindly to submit unto any thing . that infinuation following , is an arrow shot from the same bow , viz. that the anti-querist and his , oppose and prejudicate both the parliaments and synods proceedings , though never so pious , conscientious and religious . this were something to the purpose , if there were any thing to the proofe . verùm de genere hoc adeò sunt multa , &c. whereas p. . because the two brethren in their reply to a. s. used this expression concerning the congregationall government , that in time it cannot but overthrow all other sorts of ecclesiasticall government , he gathers upon them with this insulting interrogatory ; is it not then a turbulent , dangerous , schismaticall , unquiet ( that i say not , insufferable ) government by your own confessions , which will admit no equall nor corrivall , &c. is not this , either through weaknesse of understanding , or strength of a worse principle , an insufferable interpretation ? or can it but call to remembrance , that testimony of those two against our saviour ( who are call'd false witnesses for their labour , mat. . . ) wherein they testified , that he had said , i can destroy the temple of god , and build it againe in three dayes , as if he had spake concerning the materiall temple , whereas it is evident from joh. . . that he spake concerning the temple of his body ? in like manner , what the two brethren spake ( as is most apparent in the passage cited by him from p. . of the said reply ) concerning the finall prevailing of the congregationall government over other governments , by reason of that affinitie which it hath with the truth , and consonancy with the word of god , this man will needs interpret , as if they spake it in respect of some fierce , fiery , turbulent & domineering spirit , wherewith that way of government should be haunted or inspired above all others ; yea , his pen blusheth not to avouch ( in effect ) that themselves confesse as much . the whole passage in the said reply , that the reader may the better judge , is this ; indeed , by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this government to the word of god , it may very reasonably ( yea and upon higher terms then of reason , meaning i suppose , of faith ) be thought that in time it cannot but overthrow all sorts of ecclesiasticall government , and stand up it self in their stead . those words in this period , it cannot but overthrow all sorts of church-government , they borrow from the pen of their adversary , ( as appeares by their different character ) in which respect , for a man confederate with him in the same cause , to put a sinister or malevolent construction upon them , though used by his opposites , is very unnaturall , and a breach of ingenuitie ( i verily beleeve ) without president . whereas a few lines after , he vapours thus ; will any parliament , state , or nation ( think you ) suffer such a government to take root among them , which will un-king , un-parliament , un-church , un-nation them altogether , and make each severall congregation an absolute monarchie , church , &c. a man would think he were calling for the making of three tabernacles , one for moses , and one for elias , and a third for himself , not knowing indeed what he speaketh . in case a few poore christians , persons truly fearing god , shall be permitted to worship and serve god in such a way , wherein they may injoy the peace of their consciences being tender , is such a permission as this , of any such formidable aspect , as to threaten , either the un-kinging of a state , or the un-parliamenting of a parliament , or the un-nationing of a nation , or the un-churching of a church ? or are such persons more likely , or upon terms of any moe advantage ( in case their inclinations stood for it ) to bring any of these doomes-dayes upon a state or nation , when they are permitted to worship and serve god with peaceablenesse of conscience , then they would be , in case they were compelled contrary to their conscience in both ? surely the man to whom the shadowes of the mountaines seemed men , was very prudent and advised in his feare , in respect of him that is terriculamented with such apocryphall pretences of feare , as these . et si nullus erit pulvis , tamen excute nullum : quaelibet officio causa sit apta tuo . whereas he saith , p. . that in parliaments every particular man hath his vote , though not in proper person , yet in their deputies ; and yet p. . that there be a degree of vulgar people , who have no votes in parliamentary elections , ( and consequently can have no deputies ) i shall claime no priviledge of determining , which is the error or mistake ; but freely give him leave to be his own carver herein : let either number , or number . be condemned for either , that so the law of contradictories however may be satisfied , and all my demands are satisfied in this particular . whereas p. . he so much rejoyceth over that saying of his own , that there is no example of gathering independent congregations , not of infidels , but of men already converted to , & setled in the christian faith , unlesse derived from the private conventicles , of arrians , novations , donatists , and other heretiques , who yet were not independent among themselves ; as if it were a true saying indeed , and onely bitter to independents , because undeniable ; the truth is , that the truth of it ( were it granted ) will hardly equall the dust in the ballance , to make the cause he maintains weight . he that saith , there is no example of gathering independent congregations of men already converted to , and setled in the christian faith , unlesse derived , &c. must needs suppose and grant , that there are examples of gathering such congregations of men not yet setled in the christian faith , which are not so derived , &c. according to the tenor of that knowne maxime ; exceptio firm it regulam in non exceptis . he that should say thus , there is no example of any man truly sanctified , that ever finally apostatis'd from his christian profession ; implies and grants , that there are or may be examples of persons never truly sanctified , who did so apostatise . now if there be examples of gathering independent congregations , of men onely converted to the christian faith , though not yet established or setled in it , other then those that are derived from the conventicles of heretiques ; it is an argument of more strength to countenance the congregationall government , then any mr prynne hath brought either to disable that , or to strengthen the other , in whose defence his pen so much triumpheth . suppose the apostles did build up or gather independent churches or congregations onely of persons newly converted to the christian faith , and not of such as had been setled herein , yet . this amounts to an expresse patterne of ( and consequently to a sufficient warrant for ) gathering independent congregations simply , or in such cases , wherein there is not error in personis . nay , . if these apostolicall independent congregations did at their first gathering or framing consist onely of persons lately infidells , and as yet newly converted unto , and not setled in christianitie , yet afterwards , the same congregations must needs be supposed to consist of persons setled in christianitie also , unlesse we will suppose either that such as were converted by the apostles to the faith , were never either by them , or any others setled herein ; or els that upon such setling of them , their congregations were either broken up and dissolved , or els specifically chang'd in their government . either of which suppositions , though to others they may be but as gnats , easie to be swallowed , yet to me they are camells , i cannot get them downe . so that we see mr prynne hath gotten nothing yet by his true undeniable passage , ( for which notwithstanding , he scarcely refraineth from sacrificing unto his pen ) but onely the giving of his adversaries such an argument for their cause , which he will never be able to take away from them . and whereas in the latter part of this passage , he would insinuate , ( that which more plainly he affirms a few periods after ) that those that gather independent congregations , derive their practise from the examples , of novatians , donatists , and other heretiques ; whom yet he denies to have been independent amongst themselves ; it is as if he should challenge women that are modest and chaste , for deriving their behaviour from the example of josephs mistresse , or servants that were loyall and faithfull to their masters , for imitating the practise of judas iscariot . now since the passage we wot of , whilst supposed true and undeniable , doth us more service , then the eviction of it for false , would doe ; i conceive not my self bound , either in point of wisdome or conscience , to make a labour of the confutation or conviction of it . whereas p. . he demands , why the nationall church of the jews under the old testament , should not be a patterne for us to imitate , as well as their nationall covenant , fasting , sabbath-keeping ; the question ( i conceive ) carries an error ( or at least a mistake ) in the ground and foundation of it . it supposeth , that we covenant , fast , keep sabbath , &c. onely in imitation of that nation , who did the like , and that we have no other ground for these practises , but the nationalitie of the like observations amongst the jews : whereas if we had no better foundation for them then this , the nationall idolatries of that people would be a patterne for us to imitate , as well as these . if mr prynne will needs have the nationall church of the jews , a pattern for us to imitate , let him procure an injunction from heaven for the imitation , and we are ready to joyne issue with him . whereas p. . he saith , that wicked members of a church , when excommunicated , after they are baptized , do not actually cease to be members , &c. certainly it is a mistake , one or more , if nihil supra . for . if such members when excommunicated , doe not actually cease to be members , i would know whether then they cease to be such potentially onely ? if so , they ceased thus to be members , as soone as ever they became members ; they were then in potentiâ remotâ of ceasing to be members , as a man is of dying , as soone as he is borne : or if we speak of potentia propinqua , they thus ceas'd to be members , upon the committing of those sins , which rendered them justly obnoxious either unto excommunication by the church , or unto death by the civill magistrate , before either of these censures or sentences pass'd upon them . therefore if they actually cease not to be members when excommunicated , they cease not at all to be members ; or at least no otherwise , then they ceased to be before such excommunication : and if either , what doe we with this learned impertinencie , actually ? but . if wicked members when excommunicated , doe not actually cease to be members , i marvaile our saviour should allow them no better quarter amongst their fellows , then to be look'd upon as heathens and publicans ? mat. . . it seems heathens and publicans may be actuall members of mr prynnes presbyterian church ; yea , though they be by the highest hand the church can lift up , cast out of it . ne verè , ne me ad tales compellite coetus . and . and lastly , what mysterious notion he should intend to let in , or what dangerous conceit he should intend to shut out by that emphaticall insertion , after they are baptized , is out of the hemisphere of my apprehension . all that i can work out of it , is this ; that there is or may be a two-fold excommunication of the members in a christian church ; one , before they are baptized , and another , after : and that by the power of the former excommunication , they actually cease to be members of their respective churches ; not so by vertue of the latter , which ( it seems ) is either more indulgent , or lesse vigorous and active . if this be mr prynnes doctrine , it is most properly and peculiarly his ; libera per primos posuit vestigia princeps : if it be not his , sensum & sententiam vestram , ô verba , after they are baptized . whereas immediately after , he argues thus , that since none separated from the churches of ephesus , colosse , smyrna , and though they had some corruptions and evill members , therefore for us to separate from , and un-church such nationall or parochiall churches , which have such members in them , is to un-church all churches in the old and new testament , &c. he commits as many errors in arguing , as a man shall lightly meet with within such a compasse of words . for . he must be beholding either to an abundant weaknesse or charitie ( th' one ) in his reader , to obtaine the grant of that which is the base or rise of this whole argumentation , viz. that none separated from the churches of ephesus , colosse , &c. negative proofes from the scripture in this case are not concluding . but suppose charitie should cover the nakednesse or weaknesse of this supposition , and passe it as a truth , yet . that such a supposition should argue , that to separate from nationall or parochiall churches which have evill members in them , is to un-church all churches in the old and new testament , hath neither head , nor foot , neither body nor soule of reason in it . for . they who separate from a nationall church , supposing no place or ground for such a church under the new testament , have no ground or colour but to judge that such a church was lawfull , and truly so called under the old : as they who now separate themselves from circumcision and other judaicall observations , as superstitious and highly displeasing unto god , doe in no reasonable construction hereby deny , but that sometimes they were , or might have been , a legitimate and acceptable worship unto him . . nor is there any sinew or strength of reason at all in this position ; they who separate from a nationall or parochiall church , which have wicked members in them , doe therefore separate , because of these members , more then there is in this ; they who avoid the company of men with heads , doe therefore avoid them , because they have heads . there may be reasons more then enough , of separating either from a nationall , or from a parochiall church , besides the wickednesse of some of the members of them : yea , i doe not conceive that ever any man separated from either of these churches , nationall or parochiall , simply or solely upon this ground : nor doe i judge it a sufficient cause of separation from either . mr prynne himself hath separated from the church of england as episcopall , and hath given the strength of his assistance to cast it into another frame or mould of government , whereby it will specifically differ from it self : and yet it is a plain case , that he hath not made this separation from it , because of the wickednesse of some of the members that were in it , whilst episcopall ; because it is like to have many of this character , in case it shall be torkened to presbyterall . therefore a man may separate either from a nationall or parochiall church which have wicked members in it , without unchurching ( yea , or disparaging ) any church at all , either in the old or new testament . whereas p. . he collects thus ; if independents denie that there were diverse particular congregations at jerusalem , then they must prove , that all the apostles and elders at jerusalem , were pastors but of one and the self-same individuall congregation ; it is at least a mistake , though pardonable in a lawyer , yet not in a logician . for . suppose there were diverse particular congregations at jerusalem , it doth not follow , therefore all the elders belonging to these severall congregations , were pastors of them , except we stretch the signification of the word , pastor , beyond the staple of the scriptures , ( as presbyterians i confesse , usually doe to help themselves at a dead lift ) and extend it unto all manner of governours and officers in the church . and consequently , a pluralitie of congregations at jerusalem may be denied ; though no proofe or supposition be made , that all the apostles and elders at jerusalem , were pastors to one individuall congregation . . a pluralitie of congregations supposed , it doth not follow , that all , or any of the apostles , were pastors unto any of them ; pastors and apostles being contra-distinguished , eph. . . he therefore gave some apostles , some prophets , some evangelists , some pastors and teachers . the apostles had a commission to preach unto any particular church , or churches , without being made pastors unto them : yea , himself afterwards in this very page confesseth , that the apostles were not immediate ministers or pastors to particular churches . therefore mr prynnes collection ( however ) faulters . . ( and lastly ) the presence or continuance of so many of the apostles at jerusalem for a time ( for that all the apostles should be present at the meeting , act. . is onely mr. prynnes gospel ) no wayes implies , that their stay there was so much either for the government or edification of the particular church of jerusalem , whether consisting of one or more congregations , as for the generall accommodation of the gospel , and of the affaires of all particular churches elsewhere ; this citie being their head-quarter , or rendevouz , from whence upon occasion they might , and did the more commodiously issue forth by parties into other parts , upon their spirituall designs , as god called them , or gave opportunitie . so that there is no necessitie at all lying upon them , who conceive that there was onely one congregation at jerusalem , to prove , that all the apostles and elders there were pastors of one and the self-same individuall congregation . he tells me p. . of my independent fabrique fastened together with independent grochets : but i can assure him , that if his presbyterian fabrique be not fastened together and supported by better crochets and crutches , whether dependent , or independent , then are to be found in the words either of his twelve considerable serious questions , or of his independencie examined , or of this his full reply , it will drop one piece from another , and the honour of it soone lie in the dust . the inference which he would make by way of question , in the words immediately following those already insisted upon , complaines of the same weaknesse with the former . and then ( saith he ) what becomes of their independent churches , which have no apostle , and onely one pastor , &c. i presume his presbyterian churches want apostles , as much as the independent : and if these be peccant through such a defect , i hope those will not be justified . but how effeminate and loose a consequence is this : the church at jerusalem had apostles and elders to be the pastors of it : therefore that church that hath not both apostles and elders to be the pastors of it , is or can be no true church ; as if pastors made of apostles ( in case there had been such ) had been of the essence of the church at jerusalem . if either mr. prynne , or any other , shall shew me any one such independent crochet as this and twenty more in this reply , in any of my writings , i shall freely confesse a judgement against them to the fire . whereas ( p. . ) he pretends to find , an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of nationall synods , parliaments , in all christian kingdomes , and of an authoritie given them to determine all ecclesiasticall controversies , settle , order all church-affaires , &c. in the frequent generall nationall assemblies , synods — among the israelites , prescribed , appointed by god , and no waies contradicted , revoked under the gospel , invested with such authoritie , &c. he is ( questionlesse ) mistaken over and over . for . the assembly spoken of chron. . . to the . ( the prime place produced by him to prove his generall nationall assemblies , synods , amongst the israelites , prescribed , appointed by god ) is neither there , nor any where else in scripture said to have been prescribed , appointed by god. nor . did this assembly , consisting ( the king himself excepted ) of the captaines of thousands , and of hundreds , of every leader , ( a very strange synod to determine all ecclesiasticall controversies ) either claime or exercise any authoritie in this kind ; but only resolved upon the sending to , and gathering together the priests and levites , with the generalitie of the people of the land from all parts , as not thinking it meet to remove the ark without their presence and consent . nor . were the members of this assembly , synod , chosen by the respective synagogicall congregations in the land ; and consequently no such impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of nationall assemblies , synods , now ; though for my part i never questioned the lawfulness of such assemblies , synods , as these , but onely the lawfulnesse of some power , which some of these claim and exercise . . nor did this , nor any other generall nationall assembly , synod , any where to be found in scripture , ever enact any thing concerning the worship and service of god , under mulcts and penalties , but what god himself had plainly determined and adjudged to be done , in his law. nor was this done by any select assembly , synod , consisting onely of priests and levites , or of persons voted into places of authoritie by the generalitie of the people of the land , but by the generality of the people themselves met together , with an uniforme , full and free consent and approbation on all hands . it is said , chron. . , . , , &c. ( another scripture cited by mr. prynne , to prove the aforesaid gain-said conclusion ) that all judah and benjamin , and the strangers with them out of ephraim , and manasseh , and out of simeon , gathered themselves together at jerusalem , and entered into a covenant to seek the lord god of their fathers , with all their heart , and with all their soule , that whosoever would not seek the lord god of israel , should be put to death , whether small or great , — and all israel rejoyced at the oath , &c. here is no compelling of any man by any authoritative synod of priests and levites , nor by any assembly of the nobles or persons delegated by the people , to submit-unto such a law , or such a covenant , as is mentioned ; but the generalitie of the people in their proper persons , did voluntarily and freely with one consent enter into this association or agreement between themselves , and confirmed it by an oath . . ( and lastly ) that which was here generally agreed upon , and solemnly sworne by the people under the penaltie of death , viz. the seeking of the lord god of their fathers , &c. was not any matter of doubtfull disputation , any determination of the sense and meaning of any conttoversall passage of scripture , was not any thing ensnaring , any thing destructive to the peace and comfort of those that were tender and conscientious amongst them : no : it was nothing but what in expresness and plainness of words , was required of them by god himself in their written law a ( which they had all owned and voluntarily subjected themselves unto formerly b . ) the contrary to it , viz. idolatry , being as expresly and plainly forbidden in the same law , and that ten times over c . yea , it was the effect of the first & greatest commandement of this law ; some lively sparkes and impressions whereof remaine to this day in the fleshly tables of mens hearts , anciently written by the finger of god , without the mediation of scripture instruction . thus you see mr. prynnes impregnable evidence for the lawfulnesse of an authoritie in nationall synods , parliaments , assemblies , for determining all ecclesiasticall controversies , &c. plainly non-suited , and defaced . — irus & est subito , qui modo croesus erat . no such authority as that wherein he seekes to infeoffe generall nationall assemblies , synods , in determining ecclesiasticall controversies , &c. will ever be evidenced from any assembly , synod , heard of in the scriptures . whereas ( page . ) from the words of his antagonist there expressed , he drawes this conclusion , therefore the infant-church in the apostles dayes was not so compleat , perfect in all points , as the multiplied or grown churches afterwards , either he amphibologizeth , or else his conclusion is an absolute mistake in reference to his purpose . for though the infant-church in the apostles dayes , that is , christian churches in their first bud and spring , in and about the beginning of the apostles dayes , and their first going forth into the world to preach the gospell , were not so compleat , perfect in all points , as either the same , or other churches were afterwards , viz. towards the later dayes of the apostles in the world , when they had supplied and added all things necessary , and any wayes appertaining to the beauty and well-being of these churches in point of government and discipline ; yet it follows not from hence , that either these , or any other succeeding churches after the apostles dayes , how multiplied or grown soever , ever grew to more beauty or perfection in point of government , then these had attained unto , before the apostles were taken away by death from them . this conclusion indeed , if mr. prynne could have made lawfull prize of it , from the premises of his adversary , would have smiled a little upon his cause : but for the other , it holds no correspondencie at all with it , but rather frowns upon it . for if the apostles left the churches of christ in the perfection of beauty for matter of government , it must needs follow , that any variation from that forme of government wherein they left them , is rather matter of deformity then perfection . whereas ( in the same page ) he affirmes with an high hand , that if the parliament and synod shall by publicke consent establish a presbyteriall church-government , as most consonant to gods word , — independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it , under pain of obstinacie , singularity , &c. in case they cannot really , by direct texts , and precepts , prove it diametrically contrary to the scripture . — i conceive it to be a jeofaile in theologie , a mistake in stead of a truth . for first , a man is not bound in conscience to doe any thing that is commanded , though both the authority whereby it is commanded , yea and the thing it selfe which is commanded , be never so lawfull , whilst his judgement and conscience remain considerably doubtfull , and unsatisfied touching the lawfulnesse of it , especially whilst they vehemently incline to thinke and judge the contrary ; least of all , whilst the contrary is the absolute and unquestioned decision of both ; yea , though the grounds of such a doubt or determination bee never so insufficient and weake . the scripture is cleare in this , let every man be fully perswaded ( or assured ) in his own mind , or understanding , ( viz. concerning the lawfulnes of what he doth ) & not build upon , or content himself with the mind and understanding of others , rom. . . again , he that doubteth , is condemned if he eat , because he eateth not of faith ; i. not out of a ful perswasion or knowledge in himselfe of the lawfulnes of his eating in such a kind : for whatsoever is not of faith [ i. is acted or done , and not out of such a knowledge ] is sinne , rom. . . now certaine it is , that no man is bound in conscience , under pain of obstinacie , singularity , &c. to sinne , or bring damnation upon himselfe . the truth is , that to scruple or question the lawfulnes of any thing that is commanded by the high hand of authority to be done , is somwhat singular in the world ; and so deserves not the pain , but the honour of singularity : but that such a behaviour or deportment as this , should suffer the pain of obstinacy , is as contrary to reason , as that the sunne should be arrested for being a nuysance unto the world with his darknes . ly , if by proving the contrariety of what he speaks of , unto the scriptures , by direct texts and precepts , he means , the producing of such texts of scripture wherin this contrariety is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in terminis , or in tofidem verbis expressed , he binds a heavier burthen on the shoulders of others , then he is willing himself to touch w th the least of his fingers , in all he hath publickly discoursed hitherto upon this subject ; yea , heavier then either god , or the common light of reason in men , will suffer to be bound upon them in this case . the sadducees were bound to beleeve the resurrection of the dead by vertue of this text , i am the god of abraham , and the god of isaac , and the god of jacob , exod. . . wherein notwithstanding there is no direct or expresse mention made of this resurrection , as appears mat. . , . in like manner the corinthians were bound to think it a matter of duty to minister in their carnall things , unto those that sowed spirituall things unto them , by vertue & warrant of this scripture , thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that tradeth out the corn , deu. . . ( as appears cor. . , . ) & yet evident it is , that the direct letter of such a duty is not here to be found . what proposition soever , shall , or may be found to be a legitimate and native consequence or deduction from any text in scripture being found , ought to be of the same sacred consideration unto us , and according to the tenor of it , of the same obligation upon us , with that scripture-ground from whence it issueth and is derived . for if the first fruits bee holy , so is the whole lump : and if the root bee holy , so are the branches , rom. . . therefore that church-government which shall be overthrowne by a direct and pregnant consequence from a text , is as sufficiently overthrowne , as if the defeat had been given by the most direct and expresse letter of such a text . whereas ( page . ) hee superaddes this notion ( in a passage much of the same import with the last brought under examination ) that though the establishment of a government by the parliament and assembly , doth not bind all independents to be simply of their opinion , yet it binds them in point of practice and obedience outwardly thereto , and not to separate under pain of arrogancie , faction , schisme , unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repagnant to the scriptures . i conceive he addes unto his mistakes , if not unto his errors . for first , whereas he here supposeth , that independenters must separate from the government that shall bee established by parliament and assembly , ( and so must undergoe the pains and penalties imposed upon that crime by the law of his pen ) in case they doe not , or shall not submit unto it , hee should have done well to consider , that separation still presupposeth former union . those whom god hath joyned together , let not man separate , a or put asunder . that woman cannot bee divorced , nor yet forsake her husband , which never was married ; no more can independents be said ( unlesse by saying that which had been better unsaid ) to separate from that government unto which they never were yet united . therefore let mr. prynne , and all other of the presbyterian judgement , know assuredly , that they will never gain any thing but the wages of unrighteousnesse by charging their brethren of the congregationall way , either with separation or schisme . secondly , to affirme , that a man though he be not of their opinion , who shall establish a government ( he must meane , touching the lawfulnesse of the government so established , or else it is nothing to the purpose ) is yet bound in point of outward practise and obedience to submit thereunto , is a note beyond that elah of the familists , wherein they teach , that if a man shall keep his heart and mind sound and uncorrupted within , he may for his safety or accommodation otherwise , comply outwardly with any idolatrous worships or superstitions , or other unlawfull practises whatsoever . this generation it self , doth not hold such an outward compliance as this , simply necessary , in point of dutie or conscience , but onely lawfull in point of christian libertie . therefore mr. prynne wades deeper into these polluted waters , then they . . and ( lastly ) whereas he thinks sufficiently to proviso his former assertion , by adding , unlesse they can cleerly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the scriptures ; the truth is , that here is neither shield nor buckler that can saye it harmlesse . for . it is not the truth or soundnesse of a mans judgement standing in opposition to the supposed or asserted lawfulnesse of a thing , that makes the practise of the thing , during the present state of his judgement , unlawfull to him ; but the very tenor or state of his judgement in respect of such opposition , whether this state of it be good or bad , sound or unsound . much lesse . is it an abilitie in men to manifest unto others the truth or soundnesse of their judgements , when they stand bent against a practise that is injoyned as lawfull , that onely can excuse them from subjection . mens actions are not to be regulated either by a rhetoricall or logicall facultie of expressing themselves or their judgements to the conviction and satisfaction of others ; but by those impressions of righteousnesse and equitie that are in and upon their judgements , whether they be able to represent or commend them for such unto others , or no. shadrach , meshach , and abednego , were not able cleerly to manifest it unto nabuchadnezzar and his nobles , that it was absolutely unlawfull for them to fall downe and worship the golden image which he had set up : yet was it not therefore unlawfull for them to refuse subjection unto the kings commandement in that behalf . if the lawfulnesse of our refusing our superiours in their injunctions and commands , be suspended upon our abilitie to convince them of the unlawfulnesse of these commands , there will not be much danger in it to bid the papists god speed , when they bring the doctrine of blind obedience unto us . rare are those superiours , that care to impose any thing by way of command , of the unlawfulnesse whereof they can be willing to be convinced , especially by the commanded : and where there is no disposition , no willingnesse towards a conviction , arguments and demonstrations are ( for the most part ) but as sounding brasse , and tinkling cymballs . leviathan in regard of the strength and toughnesse of his skin and scales , esteemeth iron as straw , and brasse as rotten wood : the arrow cannot make him flee : the stones of the sling are turned with him into stubble , job . , . whereas ( p. . ) he saith , that if the parliament should settle independencie , i am certain you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it , without dispute ; doubtlesse this certaintie of his is but a confident mistake ; for . it is no wayes consistent with the principles of that government he speaks of , to urge or presse universall obedience to it ; because it professeth an absolute incapacitie in farre the greatest part of men ( for the present ) for it ; nor doth it expect that the universalitie of men will ever become capable of it . this government pleadeth for no subjection to it , but from those that are saints , at least in view , such i mean , who doe not in works or deeds denie that faith , which in words they professe . such as these the scripture pronounceth to be worse then infidells : and therefore whilst such , they are not capable of part & fellowship in that government , which is appropriate to the kingdome , or churches of christ . neverthelesse , it earnestly prayeth for , and by every other good way and means is ready to endevour the conversion of these unto god : onely it judgeth not meet to bring them into the temple , untill they be purified . nor . doth this government presse for subjection unto it from the saints themselves , without dispute : it cares for no proselytes , but for those that are first instructed , and made disciples . it disdaignes so far to undervalue its beautie and lovelinesse , as to ravish or force the conscience of any man. whereas ( p. . ) he makes it an apparent schisme , separation from all other churches , for independent churches to appeale onely to churches of their own partie ; i conceive it is a repetition of a former mistake , with the augmentation of a new . for . there is no place for the crimes of schisme or separation , but where a preceding union hath prepared it . well may it be a crime or fault of another nature or kind in congregationall churches , to limit themselves in point of appeale , unto churches onely of their own constitution ; but for the crimes of schisme and separation here charged upon it , it is unquestionably innocent . and mr prynnes printer ( i presume rather casually , then consultedly ) by making it , not an apparant , but an apparent schisme , hath much eased the burthen of the charge ; and represents the action more like unto it selfe in point of truth , then the author himself intended ; for the truth is , there is no realitie or truth , but onely an appearance or shew ( at most ) of a schisme or separation in it . . it is but a mistaken supposition in him , to suppose , that in case an aggrieved partie in an independent church , shall chuse rather to appeale to a church ( one , or more ) of a differing government and constitution from their own , that this church will refuse to be accountable unto the church or churches so appealed unto , because they are not of the same constitution with it self . i beleeve there is no congregationall church any where , but if it be lawfully and in a christian manner required or called upon to do it , will be ready and willing to render an account of any of her actions or proceedings , not onely to a presbyterian church , but even to the meanest member of it . but . why he should call a voluntary account given by a church , a meere mockery in stead of an account , unlesse the church accounted unto , should have power to inforce it to correct its errors or injustice , my eyes can see no reason . for in case the church which willingly accounteth for her actions unto another , shall , upon the discovery and sight of any error or injustice in these her actions , as willingly retract and reforme them ( which , with the help and assistance of a very little charitie , may ordinarily , if not universally , be presum'd of saints ) why shall not such a reformation as this , being voluntary and free , be every whit as commendable and reall , as a reformation compelled or inforced would be ? and consequently , why should not an arbitrary or voluntary account , be as christian , as satisfactory , as reall , as that which is purchased by an iron rod ? or doth any church or association of churches , obtaine a quicker or richer spirit of discerning , or a more accomplished facultie of convincing churches that are delinquent , of their errors or injustice , by being armed with a compulsive power over them , then they were or would be capable of , if their authoritie were consultative and perswasive onely ? or hath a church called to an account for error or injustice , any more reason to acknowledge either for such , because they are adjudged such unto her , by churches ( one or more ) having a coactive power over her , then if this sentence were passed by churches not daring to claime , owne , or exercise any such power ? . and lastly , i would faine know , why it should be more schisme or separation , for an independent church to appeale onely unto churches of their owne partie , and not unto the presbyterian , then it is for presbyterian churches , to appeale onely to churches of their partie , and not unto the independent ; considering , that churches of this constitution , are every whit as much ( at least ) churches of christ , as those of the other . but the truth is , it being lawfull and free ( as himself here supposeth ) for churches to appeale to churches , as well of the one constitution , as of the other , that it is somewhat an uncouth and strange conceit , to make schisme or separation of appealing either unto the one , or the other . whereas ( p. . ) he gives us leave to differ in judgement from the decrees of synods and parliaments , when erroneous and contrariant to the expresse word , not to our owne fancies , inferences , or opinions ; doubtlesse , he mistakes , taking that away from us with the one hand , which he gives us with the other ; which , i presume was not his intention . for if we may not differ in judgement from synodicall decrees , when they are contrariant to our opinions , wee may not so differ from them at any time . or may we , or can we differ in judgement from that , which is not contrary to our opinion ? though mr prynne differs in judgement from those that hold forth the congregationall way , yet ( it seems ) he may be of the same opinion with them concerning that way . whereas ( in the same page ) he demands of us , if we deem not our selves more holy then our brethren , or be not sweld up with spirituall pride , why refuse we to close with them now , as we have done heretofore ? the ground of the demand ( questionlesse ) is a mistake , and should not suffer ultrâ condignum , if it were called an error . there may be many reasons why one man closeth not with another in point of judgement ( and consequently why not in practice also ? ) besides deeming himselfe more holy then his brother , from whom hee dissenteth , or being sweld up with spirituall pride . i doe not conceive that the apostle paul deemed himselfe more holy then peter , much lesse that he was sweld up with spirituall pride , when hee not onely dissented from him touching the justifiablenesse of that course and practice wherein peter now walked , but ( as the text saith a ) withstood him to his face ; but that the true ground of such both dissent and resistance , was partly the standing of pauls judgement in opposition unto , and dislike of what peter did ; partly the desire hee had of doing his fellow apostle the christian kindnesse of making streight that which was crooked in his way ; partly also ( if not principally ) his zeal and faithfulnesse to his lord and master jesus christ , and his gospel , and his saints , that none of these might suffer losse or disadvantage in the world by the misprisions , or miscarriages of any man , how great or holy soever , as farre as lay in his power to prevent it . nor would it have been any disparagement or dishonour at all to the name of mr. prynne , nor wound ( i beleeve ) to his conscience , if hee had wav'd those hard suggestions we spake of , and substituted these or the like in their stead , as the true grounds of his brethrens not closing with him , and those of his judgement in the presbyterian way . the truth is , that for my part ( and i verily beleeve that i may truly speak the same for many thousands more ) any conceit or deeming of my selfe more holy then others , was so far from interessing either my judgement or affections for the congregational way in the least , or from keeping me at any distance from my brethren of a contrary judgement , that a sense of mine owne defectivenesse therein , together with an earnest desire of better accommodations for my supplies , was not the least of those motives and arguments which carried and set my heart upon that way . and here i make open profession in the presence of heaven and earth , that if any of my brethren of opposite judgement , shall give me any reasonable account , or satisfaction , how in an ordinary way of providence , or experience , i may build up my selfe in holinesse , better ( or , if it be but as well ) in the way of presbytery , then in that way wherein i am for the present ingaged , i will soon pull down what i have built , and dwell no longer in the tents of independencie , but devote my selfe , and all my strength and might , to the service of that way , which for distinction sake is called presbyterie . for i make no question , but that way of church-government which hath the richest sympathy , and most direct and full compliance with the edification of the saints in holinesse , is against all reasons , grounds , and arguments of what seeming strength or evidence soever , the way which jesus christ hath sealed . for any harsh censures cast , or passed by any congregationall men upon mr. prynne , or other of their brethren of mr. prynnes judgement and way , i trust the complaint is to the height of the crime . i cannot justifie one harsh censure given , by a thousand received : but if there were a law for any such attonement , i make no question but that all the congregational delinquency in that kind , would be fully purged . if my pen hath trespassed in this kinde , ( whereof notwithstanding i am no ways conscious , though upon some charge , i have made diligent enquirie after my own guilt ) i hope the last period in this mr. prynnes reply a , will speak a good word for it , and salve the imputation of such a sin . hitherto i have examined onely such passages in the reply which concerne the common cause depending between the two wayes of church-government , so much ingaged in competition . my pen must now travaile for her selfe , and make triall of her strength for the redeeming of her own innocency out of the hand of those accusations , which have laid violent hands upon her . i intend scarce so much as to touch or mention any thing that was brought to the touch-stone in the former part of this discourse : a single vindication is large allowance for criminations without either substance , or colour of truth : the chiefe ( & almost the only ) thing which i have now to doe , is to weigh the discussions of mr. prynnes pen in opposition to those of mine , in the ballance of reason and truth , that so the reader , to whom judgement in this case belongeth , may give sentence accordingly . but first it is a thing almost incredible , ( doubtlesse farre beyond the belief of any sober or ingenuous man ) that a man of that name and reputation not only for learning , but for religion also , which mr. prynne is , should affirme , those . lines about the middle of page . to be the main doctrine prosecuted in my discourse called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : the said lines being nothing else but a rapsody or collection of severall words , phrases , and expressions , scattered here and there throughout the discourse , some of them being expressly contrary to those restrictions and limitations , under which the doctrine there prosecuted , is propounded , and asserted in the explication of it . as for example ; whereas page . of the said theomachia , i expresse my selfe thus ; if to attempt the suppression , or keeping downe any way , doctrine or practice , which is from god , bee of no lesse concernment , of no safer interpretation then a fighting against god , then certainly it is the greatest imprudence , or improvidence under heaven , for any man , or rank of men whatsoever , to appeare , especially in any high-handed opposition , or contestation , against any way , &c. in stead of those words , to appeare , especially in any high-handed opposition , he , most unworthily and unchristianly substitutes these , to appeare , or so much as to lift up an hand , or thought against any way , &c. which falsification of my words is so much the more unsufferable because in the explanation of my doctrine , page . i expresse my selfe thus : it is not every degree or kind of opposing a way , doctrine , or designe of god , which either the text , or the doctrine calleth a fighting against god , but onely such an opposing which is peremptory , and carried on with an high hand , so that those instruments of god which hee hath anointed to hold forth that way , doctrine , or designe of his in the world , are not suffered to execute their commission , but are countermanded either by the authority , or over-bearing strength or power of men and immediatly after , for the further explanation of my intent in the doctrine proposed , i distinguish thus : it is one thing to oppose , or contend against a doctrine or way of god , per modum doctoris : another to doe it per modum judicis : the former i grant , may befall the best and faithfullest of men ; yea , the later i grant to be somtimes incident to men otherwise upright in the main before god ; onely affirming that the children of this later contention and contestation against their maker , must expect to be taught more wisdome and reverence towards him with thorns and briers . and that the reader may yet more clearly see and judge of mr. prynnes artifice in swelling my two lines ( at most ) of doctrine , into his . or . of representation , that so hee may have the fairer mark , and bigger but to hit , i shall verbatim transcribe it , as it is laid down about the middle of page . of the said discourse . the content and words of it are onely these : that for any man to endevour or attempt the suppression of any doctrine , practice or way , which is from god , is to fight against god himselfe . which doctrine , especially so qualified and understood , as the subsequent explication states the sense , purport , and meaning of it , i could not lightly expect should ever have been opposed , or contested against by any that were willing to owne abrahams relation of friendship unto god. but with what successe mr. prynne hath attempted to shake the foundations of the truth of it , or whether indeed he hath attempted this at all , and not rather ( contrary to the law of all regular disputation ) fallen foule onely upon the conclusion it selfe , without giving any answer at all unto the premises , shall bee presently taken into consideration . in the mean time let mee adde this : that if the grossest and most abhorred heretickes in the world , might have but the same liberty to prove their hereticall opinions out of the scriptures , which pryn taketh to represent the doctrine prosecuted by me , and quarrelled against by him , out of my sermons , they might prove them , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from thence . for what opinion is there , or lightly can be imagined , but that all the words , wherin it is ( or at least very easily might be ) conceived , may be found some where or other scattered here and there severally in the scripture , & so be framed together into a sentence ? by the law of such a liberty as this , i might say , that mr. prynne , in his full reply , holds , that wee must speedily oppose , resist , avoid , suppresse , a parliaments , emperours , kings , judges , magistrates , ministers , b , even for conscience sake , and the lords sake too c . for all these words and clauses are to be found in this discourse of his , as the pages cited in the margine doe direct : yea , and twenty moe as wild and uncouth opinions , and as farre from mr. prinnes judgement as this , might by the liberty aforesaid , be collected out of the same piece . but let us come to consider those grounds and reasons , upon which , in mr. prynnes judgement , it may justly be questioned whether the doctrine expressed towards the beginning of the last section ( which is the maine , indeed the onely doctrine prosecuted in those two innocently-offending sermons ) be orthodox or tolerable . his first reason is ; because it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all the old , the speading and propagating of all new heresies , errors — without the least timely opposition or prevention , to the endangering of infinite soules , and disturbance of the churches , kingdomes peace . for there is no heretique , schismatique or sectarie whatsoever , but pretends his way , doctrine , practise , opinions , to be the way of christ , &c. will any reasonable man conceive , that there is any reason at all in all this , to question the truth or soundnesse of the prementioned doctrine ? for any man to forbeare the suppression of any doctrine or way which is ( for any thing that is knowne to the contrary ) from god , and that least he should fight against god , is this , to open a wide gate to all heresies , errors , and schismes ? then by the rule of contraries , the suppression of all doctrines and wayes , which for any thing that is knowne to the contrary , are from god , must be the fast-shutting of the gate against all heresies , errors , and schismes . this is the heart & soule of the first reason , which interesseth mr. prynnes judgement in questioning the orthodoxisme , yea , the tolerablenesse of the premised doctrine . but by the way , if mr. prynnes judgement concerning the doctrine , be , that it opens a wide gate to all heresies , errors , schismes , sects whatsoever , both new and old , &c. it is marvaile it should have no further operation upon him , then onely to prevaile with him to question whether it be orthodox or tolerable : such an effect or consequent of a doctrine as this , is foundation large enough to build a confident determination upon , that it is heterodox and intolerable . and for the body of this reason , wherein he informes us at large ( and that with truth enough ) that satan and his ministers also tranforme themselves into angels of light , that false teachers usually come to seduce men in sheeps cloathing , that there is no heretique , schismatique , or sectary whatsoever , though never so pernicious , grosse , and detestable , but pretends his way , doctrine , practise , to be the way and truth of christ ; with many other good sayings to like effect ; i cannot but marvaile , what a reasonable man should imagine to be in all this , to make him question the truth of this doctrine , that for any man to attempt the suppression of any doctrine , practise , or way which is from god , is to fight against god. because false teachers pretend their doctrine to be from god , doth it therefore follow , that the suppressing of such a doctrine which is from god , should not be a fighting against god ? it is somewhat an hard case , that a man should be arrested of a presumptuous undermining the undoubted priviledges of parliament by the very roots , at the suite of such a consequence as this . whereas upon the former assertions , he enters his action in such an interrogatory as this : must we therefore not speedily oppose , resist , avoyd , suppresse them now , because they thus pretend they are of , and from god , but stay till god hath renounced them , &c. i joyne issue with him , and say ; that there is little lesse then a meere contradiction in the forme of his plea ; those doctrines , practises , opinions , which in the former part of his plea , he had censured and condemned for heresies , errors , schismes , sects , &c. in this latter part of it he supposeth , that god hath not yet disclaimed , or renounced from heaven ; and that we see not their condemnation yet written with the beame of the sun. else why should he represent it as so unreasonable and hainous a thing , that we should stay the opposing and suppressing of them , till such things were done ? surely mr. prynne cannot be so hardy , as to condemne any doctrine or practise for hereticall or errneous , untill god hath some wayes or other disclaimed or renounced them from heaven , for such . it is he , not mr. prynne , that must , not onely determine , what is heresie , error , and schisme , but also signifie his determinations in this kinde , before it comes to mr. prynnes turne , or any mans beside , to give any such sentence against them at the barre of their judgements . a second reason which created that jealousie in him we spake of , against the forenamed doctrine , is the contrarietie of it to forty and one expresse precepts and presidents ( if my arithmetique failes me not in the computation ) in the old and new testament ; one whereof ( viz. jer. . , . ) he avoucheth for pregnant ; but the rest ( it seems ) must be compared together , or else the contrarietie in them to the doctrine which he opposeth , will not utter it self . and it is well that he can be content to afford us leasure for the perusall of these scripture precepts and presidents , though he would afford us none , to peruse or consider of doctrines or practises , as we heard before . but . i must professe the second time , that i can little lesse then wonder , that the gentleman should onely question or suspect the orthodoxnesse of a doctrine , and not positively and peremptorily conclude it heterodox , which carrieth a contrarietie in it to forty-one expresse precepts and presidents of scripture . a man would think by such a streine of tendernesse and indulgence as this , that he were a very faire and favourable interpreter of mens opinions and wayes ; and would never exact or stand upon summam jus ( which the proverb interprets to be summam injuriam ) with any man. . if all the precepts and presidents here drawne together from the scriptures , be expresse , why is that one , jer. . , . separated from all its fellows by this parenthes●s of preferment , [ a pregnant place ] as if all the rest were barren and empty of that conception , which is indifferently fathered , or mothered rather , upon them all ? and one other of them ( viz. gal. . . to . ) singularized with this parenthesis , [ a noted place ] ? if no contrarietie to the suspected doctrine be found either in the pregnant place , or in the noted place , i trust all the rest of the places will give place , and confesse themselves strangers thereunto . first , for the pregnant place , jer. . , . doubtlesse , there is not so much as an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or an embryo of such a contrarietie to be found there . the tenor of the place is this ; and when thou art spoyled , what wilt thou doe ? though thou cloathest thy self with crimson , though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold , though thou rentest thy face with paynting ; in vaine shalt thou make thy self faire , thy lovers will despise thee , they will seek thy life , ver . . for i have heard a voyce as of a woman in travaile , and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child , the voyce of the daughter of zion , that bewaileth her self , that spreadeth her hands , saying , woe is me now : for my soule is wearied because of murtherers , ver . . i am not able to discerne the least swelling or bearing-out of the womb of either of these verses , with any contrarietie in the least , to the import of the doctrine now under protection . to attempt the suppression of any doctrine or way which is from god , may be a fighting against god , and yet god say to the daughter of his people , and when thou art spoyled , what wilt thou doe ? together with all that which followeth in the two transcribed verses . i beleeve the noted place is every whit as voyde of that contrarietie we speak of , as we found the pregnant place to be . mr. prynne himself , partly transcribes , partly argues this place , beautifying the words or clause wherein he chiefly puts his trust , with emphaticall letters , thus ; paul would not give way to false apostles , no not for an houre , that the truth of the gospel might continue among the galatians , and resisted peter to his face , as soone as ever he walked disorderly , ( he should have spake more truth , if he had said , as soone as ever he understood or knew , that he so walked ) and gave the least countenance to false teachers , &c. — fortassè cupressum , scis simulare : quid hoc , si fractis enatet expes navibus , aere dato qui pingitur ? mr. prynne doth very substantially prove , by this passage , and that which followes , that errour in doctrines , and miscarriages in persons , are to be resisted and withstood , ( by wayes and means warrantable by the word of god ) as soone as ever they are certainly discerned , or known to be such : but here is not the least semblance of an argument to prove , either that the one or the other , ought to be resisted or suppressed , before they are discovered or manifested to be such ; or that being discovered or manifested to be such , they ought to be either resisted or suppressed by any other means , then what god himself hath authorized in that behalf ; least of all , is there any jot , tittle , or peep of a proof of that , which is the burthen of mr. prynnes undertaking , viz. that to attempt the suppressing of any doctrine or way which is from god , is not to fight against god. nor doth his third reason any whit more accommodate his enterprize , then the former . for what contrariety , or shew of contrariety is there in these unquestionable maximes , of divinity , policy , and morality , principiis obsta●e : venienti occarrite morbo , &c. to that doctrine , which only pronounceth , the attempt of suppressing any doctrine or way which is of god , to be a fighting against god ? yea , or to this ; that no doctrine or way ought to be suppressed , untill it be certainly known , whether they be from god , or no ? he that gave counsell , principiis obstare , i● to withstand beginnings , did not mean to advise men to make resistance against such beginnings , which might , for ought they know , be as wel the beginings , of good , or of strength , as of evill or sicknesse ; but only such beginnings , which did cleerly presage inconvenience ensuing , if not timely prevented . and though all wise men hold preventing physique best for their bodies ; yet no wise man holds such physique best , or good in any degree for his body , which is as like to prevent the health and sound constitution of his body , as any infirmity or distemper of it . he that will either launce or seare , before he knowes whether the condition of his body requires either , may abound in flesh , but sure is no true born son of wisdome . that creature which is indued by god with principles of discerning , certainly was not made to act ( especially in things of highest importance , as matters of religion are ) at peradventure . his th and last reason holds no correspondence at all with the truth . for what contrariety is there in the doctrine under mr. pryns arrest , to the policy , practice of most godly magistrates , princes , ministers , churches in all ages , nations ? when did the policy or practice of any of these affirm , that to attempt the suppression of any doctrine or way which is from god , is not to fight against god ? if his meaning be , that the policy and practice of the persons hee represents , never indulged any known heresies , errors , schismes ; no , not for an houre , the doctrine against which hee contends , in this contends not at all against him , but gives him the right hand of fellowship in such an apprehension . only it adviceth godly magistrates , prince , ministers , churches , to be very carefull and wary , of suppressing angels of light indeed , instead of satan transformed into an angel of light ; of baiting and hunting the sheep of christ , in stead of wolves that come in sheeps clothing ; of smothering light in stead of darknesse , of smiting truth in stead of error and heresie . and is there any harme in this counsell or contrariety either to the policy or practice of any wise or godly man ? or , if there be any contrariety to either , it is because there is a contrariety in them to the word and wildome of god. whereas in the same reason , he makes himself a further debtor unto mee , by charging mee , that i plead for schismes and conventicles set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publique established church-reiglement . my answer is : . that i know a publique church-reiglement abrogated and demolished , but i know none as yet established . when mr. prynne by his logique shall convince mee of acting in opposition to that which is not , i trust i shall be provided with mine to give him a satisfying answer . . whereas he declares against me , as a pleader for schismes and conventicles ; i answer , that hee is the happiest man i know of his profession , if he never pleaded any worse cause , then that which i plead in those sermons . but whereas in other places of his reply , his margent glorieth with quotations in abundance , here ( it seems ) it is ashamed , as not knowing what to say , nor where to finde or point at , any pleading for schismes and conventicles , as the lines in the page adventure to affirm . . mr. prynnes privie notion of a schisme or conventicle is , i am not able to say : but if hee be here of the same minde and judgement with his own marginall note , p. . which affirmeth , that none are conventiclers but heretiques and schismatiques , who wholly separate themselves from our publique assemblies established by law ; certain i am , that i plead for no conventicles in those sermons ; nor do i approve of the practice of any , who wholly separate themselves from our publique assemblies . but calumniare audacter ; aliquid haerebit , holds good ( it seems ) in law. but , . if by pleading for schismes and conventicles , he means a pleading for the spirituall liberties of the congregations of the saints , and of the assemblies of the first-born , whose names are written in heaven , whom jesus christ hath made kings and priests unto god his father , b and who are shortly to judge the world , if the vindication ( i say ) of the rights and priviledges of these in point of exemption and immunity in their spirituall affaires , and such as concern the regulation of their consciences in matters appertaining to the worship and service of god , from the jurisdiction and interest of the commissioners and delegates of the world ; if this ( once again ) be pleading for schismes and conventicles , i had quitted my self much more like a faithfull minister of jesus christ , if i had pleaded for them yet seven times more , then now i have done . my sorrow and shame ( in part ) is , that i have pleaded this honourable cause so weakly , as to leave thoughts and imaginations in mr. prynne , which still exalt and magnifie themselves against the righteousnesse , truth , and equity of it . . and lastly , whereas hee calls the church-government which i plead for , a government set up only by private spirits ; if it be found to be a government set up by the spirit of god in the scriptures ( the consideration unto which all my pleadings for it in those sermons are homagers , being all of them conditionall , and none peremptory or absolute ) mr. prynnes spirit , and the spirits of all others that shall oppose it , how publique soever their persons may be , will be found to be the private spirits , disallowed in the scriptures by the spirit of god. whereas hee yet addes , that differences and varieties in matters of government are such tender things , that they cannot be tolerated in one and the self-same church and state , without infinite inconveniences and distances , &c. i answer , . that differences and varieties in matters of government , are not things so tender in any degree , as the consciences of the saints ; and therefore no reason , that reason of state should be more tenderly respected , then these . better a thousand men inconvenienced in their temporalls , then one righteous soul wounded in his spiritualls ; yea , or then one sin committed to prevent all those inconveniences . vna dei gloria ( saith calvin , a great presbyterian ) praeferri meretur centum mundis . yea , and one greater then calvin ( i mean the apostle paul ) saith , ( neither saith he any thing more then what an whole christian state or nation is bound to say ) if meat offendeth my brother , i will eat no flesh whilest the world standeth , that i may not offend my brother , cor. . . but , . whereas wee still heare of wars and rumors of wars from presbyteriall pens , of infinite inconveniences and disturbances , and turnings of all things upside down in states , as if they should never die any other death , in case any other government should be indured , but their own ; the truth is , that such predictions ( or pretences rather ) as these , are but a kind of politique agents sent forth to negotiate their cause with the ignorance and simplicity of the generality of men ; who being indifferent for matter of church-government , but of firmly-resolv'd judgements to keep themselves as far from all that which is called trouble or disturbances as possibly they can , are apt to drink in the impressions of all overtures or pretences which sound that way , as fishes drink water , and so are made proselytes of a zealous inspiration for the classique consistory . primus in orbe deos fecit timor . that mixture of ignorance and feare which is commonly found in vulgar constitutions , may easily be wrought and fashion'd by a politique hand , almost into what apprehensions , and indeavours suitable , a man desireth ; if his design in this kind exceed not the compasse and content of nature : for the darknesse of ignorance hath no communion at all with the kingdome of light ; but being in conjunction with an awakened passion of feare , it disposeth the hearts and souls of men to receive any superstitious impressions of what shape and from soever the intellectus agens , or hee that worketh upon it , shal desire . for my part , i am not able to calculate the least rational proportion or conexion between a variety or diffrence of church-government , & the distractions , or disturbances in a state ; nor can i easily beleeve , that all the presbyterian writers themselves , do truly & unfainedly fear any such effect from such a cause , though some peradventure may . for what if every congregation or parish in & about london , had a different government , or way of ordering their church-affairs , as they generally have somewhat ( more or lesse ) differing in the ordering and managing of their vestries , or parochiall civill affaires , the one being supposed as agreeable to the civill lawes of the state , as the other , and each parish respectively satisfied , and well apaid with their own government , i am not able to discerne , nor cast it in my thoughts , how the peace or safety of the civill state should suffer in the least by it . but i can very easily conceive , how a state may be very probably disturbed , ( and i can give instances of many that have been ) by an universall compulsion of all the subjects thereof , to one and the same religion ; yea , and how by the like compulsion to one and the same church-government . it is very strange to me that they that know ( and how generally it is knowne ) what variety of churches and church-government , yea , and professions of religion there are , and have for a long time been in the dominion of the states of holland , and withall , how pacate , flourishing , and free from disturbance this state hath been ; and againe , how that not onely a forme of church-government differing from that kinde of government which is more generally practised throughout the kingdome of france , but even a different religion also , have without the least occasion of inconvenience or disturbance to the state , ( yea i might say , to the great advantage and benefite of the state , ) been tolerated , yea little lesse then countenanced , and that neer the very heart , & chiefe places of this kingdom ; very strange ( i say ) to me it is , that they that cannot lightly but know these things ( besides many other instances in other states and republicks , of like consideration ) should yet pretend fears , yea certainties of i know not what inconveniences and disturbances to the state , if any more church-governments then one should take place , or bee endured in it . they that shall please to peruse page . of the reply of the two brethren to a. s. shall finde many scriptures , of a friendly and harmlesse consistence of severall religions ( and therefore doubtlesse of severall church-governments ) in the same state , besides some others . and lucas osiander in his epitome of the ecclesiasticall history , written by the magdeburgenses , in the th century , relates severall examples of successfull issues and events of such mutuall tolerations , as wee now speak of . troubles and disturbances of states , are far more like to be the fruits and consequents of rigour and hard measure , measured out unto the saints , then of favour or condescension unto them for their accommodation . they that think a state should work wisely for it self , by any hard intreaty of the servants of god , have forgotten wherefore pharoah and his great host perished together in the red sea. whereas p. . he taxeth me with a default , that i neither discover unto him what that way is , which i there so earnestly plead for , nor produce any one text to prove it christs own way , nor one example to warrant it , &c. my answer is , . i suppose , that an understanding man , as all men acknowledge mr. prynne to be , that prosecutes a way with so much violence and bitternesse , as hee doth the way there pleaded for , understandeth it all over , through and through , ( and so needeth not any further discovery of it to be made unto him ) . such a man ( doubtlesse ) will take heed above all caution , of stumbling at that stone above all other , whereat the princes of this world stumbled , and were broke to pieces , when they crucified the lord of glory , before they knew who he was , cor. . . . i answer further , that it was no part of my design or intent in those sermons , to justifie the way so oft there mentioned , simply , or as a way of christ against all contradiction ; but only to justifie it against those common exceptions and vulgar objections there insisted upon ; and to demonstrate , that it may be christs own way , notwithstanding any thing that hath yet appeared to take away that crowne from it : and so upon this consideration , to perswade men , as they love and tender their own safety and peace , not to lay violent hands upon it , untill they should have better grounds to judge it none of christs way , then yet they had any . this being the adequate and precise tenor of my intention in that discourse , i kept my self close to it ; and so had no occasion to argue any thing ( or very little ) in a cataskenastique or positive way for it . but because i produce nothing positively to prove the way i plead for , ( or rather , against the suppression of it ) to be christs own way , mr. prynne takes the courage to assault the credit and reputation of it by four reasons or arguments , ( as hee desires to have their number thought ) though the second and fourth be but one and the same ; and the third , nothing but what hee had said before , and that unsuceessefully , ( as was argued in the th section of this discourse ) and the first , second , third and fourth , nothing to prophane the excellency , or pollute the beauty of that cause , against which his pen is armed . but let us answer them , so far as they have not been answered already ; only this one thing pre-observ'd , that mr. prynn's conscience , with the assistance of all his four arguments , doth not yet serve him , peremptorily or simply to condemn this way , as none of christs own way , but only to suspect it none of his , as himself expresseth himself in the last line of pag. . now being advanced no further in the confidence of his judgement against this way , but only to suspect it for none of christs , i trust , that remembring what cameron ( a learned presbyterian ) saith , viz. that suspicion of falsity , was ever a calamity incident to truth , he will advance no further in his opposition to it , untill his suspicion be grown up to the stature of a perfect , cleere , and certain knowledge . this only premised , let us try whether the grounds of his jealousie it self will not shake . to the first wee answer , . that whereas this way is here charged to be a new way , never yet heard of , in any age or church of christ ; it hath been sufficiently proved by those that have written in the defence of it ; that in point of antiquity , it hath the preheminence of its competitresse to the value of yeers , as having been that way of government , wherein the primitive churches of christ , through his gracious & wise indulgence administred unto them by his apostles in this behalf rejoyced for the space of about . yeers , as mr. burton in his answer to mr. prynn's two first pieces upon this subject , lately published , cleerly manifests , p. . and . a shewing moreover , how these churches in time came to degenerate in point of government , and to lose their spirituall liberties therein . . whereas the opposition of the generality of magistrates , ministers and people to this way , is pleaded in barre to the legitimacy and truth of it ; we answer , . that according to the tenor of poeticall story ; vlysses after twenty yeers absence from his house and home , was grown out of the knowledge of his friends and neighbours ; yea , penelope her self ( his wife ) knew him not at his return at first , but upon some conference and discoveries otherwise , hee became known both to the one and the other . nor should it seem strange to any , that a church-government , set up by the apostles , so many hundreth yeers since , and having for a thousand yeers and upwards been in exile , the rights , priviledges and possessions of it seised upon , and usurped by others , should not presently at the first return of it , be acknowledged by the generality of men , no , nor by the generality of her friends themselves , i mean , godly , sober , and understanding men ; whom i call her friends , because i make no question , but there lies love and friendship to her , at the root and bottome of their hearts , though there be a crust of enmity and opposition at the top , for a season . joseph will in due time , make himself known unto his brethren . . though numbers of those that are opposite to this way , if we compute the generality of them , be confessedly far greater , then of those that plead for her ; yet the barren begins to rejoyce , and to beare children apace ; and the desolate may in time come to have more children then she that hath an husband . john baptist had many moe disciples and followers at first , then christ himself ; yet ingenuously subscribed to the dignity of christ above himself , saying , he must increase , but i must decrease , joh. . . . the judgements both of magistrates and common people , concerning this way , depending chiefly ( if not solely ) upon the judgements of ministers , it is the lesse strange , that there should be found such a grand concurrence in the judgements of both against it , especially for a time . there are these twelve reasons ( among others ) why the judgements of ministers especially may , according to the course of humane affairs in other like cases , stand off at some distance form this goverment , for a season . first , their judgements have for a long time conversed familiarly with another , and that with approbation and contentment ; by means whereof there is a kinde of a pleasing sympathy or connaturalnesse growne between them ; which is such a conveniencie or accommodation , that nature will not suddenly quit or lose , nor without good consideration : no man ( saith our saviour ) that hath drunk old wine , streight way desireth new ; for he saith , the old is better , luke . . secondly , godly ministers ( more generally ) stand publiquely declared in their judgements for another government . and how hard a thing is it , even for good men ( in the philosophers phrase ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to do execution upon their own tenets and opinions , especially when they have own'd them in the sight of the world ? the casting out of his son ismael , is said to have been a thing very grievous in abrahams sight , notwithstanding he had the advantage of the expresse commandement of god upon him , to make it easie , gen. . . it is confessed , that this , ( haply with some others of the reasons following ) beares as hard against some independents in their adhesion unto , and stiff-standing by their way , as it doth against presbyterians in their resolvednesse for theirs . but this rather confirms , then any way infeebles , the argumentative authority of it for that probation , which it undertakes . thirdly , many ministers conceive , that if they shall pull out but one stone out of their building , though never so ill laid , they shall shake the foundations of the whole fabrique , and that in case themselves should begin with any one of those doctrines which they have taught , to disclaim it , the people will follow their example herein , and do the like by all the rest . whereas on the contrary , the truth is , that to separate the vile from the precious , is to raise the honour and esteem of that which is precious ; and the cancelling of some things , which a man hath taught , as erroneous , is an high confirmation of all the rest ; according to that schoole maxime , exceptio firmat regulam in non exceptis . fourthly , many by being declaredly ingag'd for such or such an opinion , have fared the better for it , either in their credits and reputations , or otherwise ; yea , and haply at unawares , have gained deep interest and honour with persons of name and prime respects in the world , by means of a co-ingagement in the same opinion with them . now as our saviour saith , a there is no man that shall doe a miracle in my name , that can lightly speake evill of me ; no more will men easily be brought to make refuse or untruth of any such opinion , which hath been , and still continues , such a benefactresse unto them . ministers may truly say in such cases , beneficium accepi , libertatem vendidi : i. by receiving a benefit , i have sold my liberty . fifthly , many are not able to be baptized with the baptisme wherewith paul was baptized , act. . . where he was charged to bee a setter forth of new gods : they are not able to beare the reproach of being teachers of new doctrines ; of being charged with whimzies and independent crotchets a , of trading in apes avd peacocks b , &c. and so resolve to hold on in such a way , wherein though they may meet with some reproofes , yet they are sure of farre more with them , then they can feare being against them . sixthly , some think it a point of humility to build upon other mens foundations , and feare they should pollute the memories and honour of calvin , beza , and other famous lights in the church of god , if they should recede from their principles in the least . seventhly , some have laesum principium , a maimed principle of seeing any thing that is new , except they see it first , cannot stoop so low , as to carry any mans honor after him , ( especially that converseth upon the earth with him : pascitur in vivis livor : ) nor yet so farre disparage their own parts and abilities , as to judge any thing which is of a new discovery , to be truth , except they bee some wayes or other interessed in the discovery of it . ingenio qui vult cedere , rarus erit . there is a notion ( unsound as it seemes to me ) of a kind of knowledge supposed to be in god , a called scientia media , lately started amongst the schoolmen : and how doe the great masters of that learning , contend amongst themselves for the primacie of that invention ? fonseca stands up , and tells the world , b that he was the first that observed it amongst his conimbrians . nay rather ( saith molina ) i am he that first discovered it amongst my eborans . in comes lessius from amongst his lovanians , and takes away this crown from them both , and sets it upon his own brain . eighthly , some are of opinion , that matters of truth in point of church-government , are neither too great nor too good , to bee sacrificed upon the service of peace ; though luthers saying was , that unus apex verbi , major est coelo & terra : i. the least tittle , or poynt of the word of god , is greater then heaven , and earth . ninthly , some are more addicted to authors then arguments , for the furnishing of their judgements , and regulating their consciences in matters of religion : and then it is no marvell if these make silver and gold of the presbyteriall , and hey and stubble of the congregationall way ; though it bee true also on the other hand , that in very many authors , and those of classique authority , both ancient and modern , there are manifesta rotae vestigia cernendi , manifest prints and footsteps of this way a . tenthly , the congregationall way puts ministers upon a more immediate dependence upon god and his providence for matter of maintenance and outward accommodation : and how few are there but had rather see , then beleeve ? have the knowne lawes of a state , then the unknowne purposes and decrees of heaven , the vouchers of their livelihood and supports to such a proportion or degree ? eleventhly , ( some it's like ) are afraid lest the wrath and discontent of the generality of the people of the land , should evince the error and untruth of the congregationall way , by offering violence to those that shall hold it forth in practice ; and so chuse rather to build upon the peoples generall acceptation of the presbyterian way ( which they cannot much question ) as an unquestionable demonstration of the truth and goodnesse thereof . twelfthly ( and lastly ) others ( probably ) are jealous , and foresee , that they shall not be able to give that quarter of contentment to many great persons , and men in place of authority , in the congregationall way , which they know they may in the presbyterian . yea , they cannot lightly but foresee , that in the practice of the congregationall way , they shall ( in all likelihood and without the gracious hand of god preventing ) contract the odium and ill will of many great ones , who under god have power to grind their faces , and break their bones . and who will be willing to study and take pains , and be earnest with god in prayer night and day , for the conviction of such a truth , which being discovered , will either expose a man to all that danger of hardship and misery in the world , which we speak of , or else doe him a worse displeasure then so , by tormenting his conscience , in case he shall refuse to be so exposed ? these with many other like reasons there are , why ministers ( rather then others ) may more generally incline to fall in rather with the presbyterian , then the congregationall way ( and consequently why magistrates and people , who see much by their eyes , should fall in also ) and yet such a constellation no signe from heaven , but onely from the earth , ( the element made to be trampled under foot ) of the truth & righteousnes of that way . but that i may not be mistaken , nor leave the least touch or tast of offence in the mind of any man , by occasion of the reasons insisted upon , i solemnly professe , as in the presence of god , that i intend no ill reflexion upon any of my brethren in the ministery , who are contrary minded to me in point of church-government , as such in any of them ; nor to infinuate as if they , either divisim or conjunctim , were swayed in their judgements by any of the said motives in the present controversie : but to demonstrate against my antagonist , that such tentations are very incident to the nature of man , yea , even when it is under the best accomplishments of nature , industry & grace it self : and consequently , that his argument drawne , a multitudine taliter sentientium , is of little force . i freely acknowledge , that ministers very possibly may have ( yea i verily beleeve that many have ) the presbyterian way in their hearts , who never consulted with any of those oracles about the bringing of it in thither : and that many of this judgement are as candid , free , unspotted , and untouched by any of those respects , in their way , as many who imbrace the congregationall way , are in theirs . yet . i must answer this one thing further to my repliers argument , that the testimony of a few godly persons , having little or nothing of this world to accommodate their judgements , but a thousand things to distance and distaste them , is in reasonablenesse and fairnesse of construction , of more consideration for the averment of a truth , then the judgement of many who have the sunne , moone , and twelve starres to give light unto them , i mean all or most of this worlds endowments to confirme them . . ( and lastly ) the known case happening at the councel of nice between paphnutius and the rest of the learned members thereof , with that of athanasius opposing ( in a manner ) the whose christian world now turned arrian , with some others of like consideration that might be added , have broke the heart of that topique place , quod pluribus videtur , &c. and made it void and invalid for ever . to his second argument , which ( it seemes ) strengthens the hand of his great jealousie against the congregationall cause , i answer . first , i am unduly and untruly charged , to acknowledge the congregationall government set up by a few private men , against the authority and commands of the parliament , &c. i no where mention any authority or command of parliament declared against this way ; neither indeed doe i know any to this houre . nor doe i either hope or feare to live to that day , wherein private men may not both feare god , and obey jesus christ , without offending against the authority and commands of parliament . but this charge being hard to find in my discourse , and he that affirmes it , being desirous to make it as hard to answer or disprove , he takes field-room enough for his reference , and in his margine bids us ( in effect ) looke from page . to . telling us , that if we look narrowly enough , wee shall find it somewhere within that circuit , though himselfe ( it seems ) knowes not well where . . nor do i any where , either tacitly or vocally acknowledge that this way , not onely denies , but oppugnes the temporall magistrates , parliaments , synods directions or coercive power in ecclesiasticall affairs . if any man of this way doth denie , much more if hee oppugneth either the one or the other , it is not necessary that he should doe either , as a son of this way , nor by any influence of those grounds and principles upon which this way is built . but i verily beleeve , that mr. prynne never knew any man of this way , that ever denied , much lesse oppugned any directions whether from parliaments or synods , ( or from farre meaner hands then either of these ) unlesse they saw or apprehended them contrary to the mind and will of god in the scriptures ; in which case i have that christian and honourable opinion of the authour of this charge , that he would deny them himselfe . what he meanes by the word oppugning , in such an emphaticall opposition to a denying , is none of my understanding . it he meanes onely a pleading or an arguing in oppositum , i conceive it no wayes opposite unto , but of a just and necessary concurrence with a deniall . for he that denies any thing affirmed by another , is bound to , ( or at least very lawfully may ) give a reason of that his deniall ; which must needs be an oppugning ( in this sense ) of the others assertion . if by oppugning , he means , an opposing or resisting by force , the charge is a most unworthy and unchristian slander . i no where give the least intimation that the way i plead for in any of her principles or maximes , thus oppugneth either parliaments or synods , either in their directions , or in the exercise of any coercive power . as for a coercive power in synods , i think mr. prynnes way denies , if not oppugns , it , as well as mine . and to gratifie the civill magistrate with such a power as this , in matters of religion , denying him withall any directive power for the ordering and government of it ( which is the bountie of the presbyterian way to the civill magistrate a ) is no such eminency of desert at his hand , above what the congregationall way doth willingly and chearfully leave unto him . the understanding and reason of a man , is certainly better then the strength of an elephant , or a lyon. . i absolutely deny , that mr. prynne hath either largely , or contractedly proved , either by many texts , or any texts , either in his independencie examined , or in any other of his writings whatsoever , whether examined or unexamined the deniall of any such coercive power , either in parliaments or synods , to be either directly or indirectly contrary to the scriptures , which either the congregationall way , or any patron or friend of this way , that i know of , have denied , or doe deny unto either . and whereas his page boasts of his large proofe hereof by many texts , and by this finger ( o ) points us to his margent , as if that would justifie and make good this boasting ; the honest margent , as conscious to the vanitie thereof , refuseth to say any thing at all , jot or tittle , to it . . whereas he pleads , that paul himself even in matters of religion pleaded his cause before festus , felix , and king agrippa , all this is granted in point of truth , but absolutely denied in point of pertinencie to his purpose . if independents be brought before kings and rulers for christs sake , or for their conscience sake , it is their wisest course ( and that which well becomes them , yea , and that which they would doe , if so brought ) to plead their cause before them as well as they can , as paul did before festus , &c. but though paul was a chosen vessell of christ to carry his name before kings a , yet they were chosen vessels of satan , who compell'd or brought him before kings to answer for his life , because he preach'd and practis'd the doctrine of christ , notwithstanding he alwayes carried the name of christ with him , whensoever he was brought before them . nor doth his pleading his cause before festus , &c. any whit more prove that festus had a lawfull coercive power in matters of religion , then james his being slaine by herods sword , or christs being crucified by pilates power , prove that civill magistrates have a lawfull power to sentence the faithfullest and most innocent men unto death . as for pauls appeale unto caesar , ( an heathen emperour ) can we blame him for it , when as he hop'd to find more equall and faire proceedings before him , then at the judicatories of inferior judges ? if mr. prynne will accept or interpret , either the pleading of our cause before a civill magistracy when we are brought before it , or an appealing from an inferior civill judicatory when we feele or feare injustice , to a superior , or an acknowledgement of a lawfull power in the civill magistrate to restraine the violence and unjust proceedings and practises of men against us ; if ( i say ) he will interpret any , or all these , to be an acknowledgement of a coercive power in the civill magistrate , in ecclesiasticall affaires , there is an end of this strife between us ; we will all readily subscribe , that such a coercive power as this in matters of religion and ecclesiasticall affaires , is the undoubted priviledge of the civill magistrate , and of right belongs unto him . . wee freely likewise subscribe unto those injunctions of the apostle , where he injoyns all christians to pray , even for heathen kings , magistrates , and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake : yea , and are heartily sorry that any such commands should at any time proceed from kings , magistrates , whether heathen or christian , unto which we cannot submit with a good conscience , and for conscience sake ; but are necessitated even for conscience sake to decline them . onely we question , whether kings , magistrates , heathen or christian , have any power from god , to punish good and godly men , for declining such commands of theirs for conscience sake , which they cannot for conscience sake submit unto . . for those princes and magistrates who were long sence predicted to become nursing fathers to the church under the gospel , we wish them all christian care , tendernesse , and compassion , according to the nature and tenor of this so honourable a service and imployment , so long sence by prophecie from god assign'd and recommended unto them . but whether it be proper for those , that desire to be look'd upon as nursing fathers of the church , to sacrifice the peace and comfort of one part of the children of the church upon the service of the wills or humors of another part of them , i leave to nursing mothers , who have twins of their womb hanging upon their breasts , to judge and determine . . and lastly , for the good and wholesome laws enacted by cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , &c. for the worship of god , &c. we gave ( i trust ) a good and wholesome answer in the former part of this discourse , published some weeks since . wee freely grant a power , yea , and more then a power , a necessitie by way of dutie , in kings , magistrates , to further the honour and service of the true god , and his people in the worship of him . it is onely a power of discouraging his people , of interrupting and hindring their peace and comfort in the worship and service of the true god , which we conceive incompetible unto magistracie , as any gift or donation setled upon it by god. his third argument or ground of jealousie against the way of his great contestation , is , that it appears to be a way that will breed infinite confusions , disorders , by confounding the bounds of parishes , &c. we answer . that physicians seldome complain of sickly times ; nor millars of those that bring griest to their mills . the old saying was , de morbo gaudet medicus . it is strange to me that mr. prynne should thus prevaricate with his profession . but it may be this argument is figurative , and cat-antiphrasticall : and so , by confusions , disorders , &c. he means , peace , unitie and concord amongst men , whereby confusions , disorders , and consequently suits at law , will be prevented and cut off . and the truth is that such peace , unitie , and concord amongst men , whereby such unchristian mischiefes and miseries as these , may in ordinary way of providence be prevented , is the genuine and naturall product of this way , and a fruit that is daily gathered from it by many . . whereas he chargeth this way , with confounding the bounds of parishes , and in his margent cites p. . to . of my two sermons , for the justification of this charge ; the truth is , that both charge and justification may go together , and serve in the forlorne hope , having neither reason nor truth to second either . for . the way he speaks of , intermeddles not with , offers no violence to the bounds of parishes onely it thinks it equall that the bounds of parishes should not offer violence , or be houses of bondage unto the consciences of the saints , nor be as barres of iron against them in the way of their comfort , and spirituall edification . . whereas i am sub-pena'd for a witnesse against this way , touching the crime objected , i meane of trespassing upon the bounds of parishes . may answer is , that the printed copie of those sermons of mine , which i have , hath ne gry quidem , either in pag. , , or . of any such matter : nor hath it any where else , any page , passage , sentence , line , word , syllable , letter , point , or tittle , amounting to the import of such a charge . . whereas his pen spits this black reproach in the face of independencie , that it is a government inconsistent with royaltie and the civill government ; my answer is , that look in what degree this accusation and charge would be weighty and sore , in case it could be prov'd ; in the same degree it is light and contemptible , through a deficiencie of all , and all manner of proofe , or colour of proofe , whatsoever . the roman empire lost nothing of her beautie , strength , or interest , by the churches of christ practising this government in severall places within the bounds and territories of it . if it sustained losse in any of these , by occasion of this government , it was not because of their toleration of , but their opposition to it . . nor is this charge , that it giveth way to every sect to choose ministers , erect churches of their owne without controule , of any better commendation in point of truth , then the former . for it giveth way to no sect whatsoever without controule ; it reproves , oppugns , censures , and condemns sects and sectaries of all sorts ; so far is it from granting allowance to them , to choose ministers , and erect churches , without controule . indeed it knows no authoritie or commission which it hath from god , to countenance the controulement of the civill sword against such persons , who in the simplicitie ( not convicted obstinacy ) of their hearts , are misled in matters of religion : it trembles to make misprisions in things of that difficult , high , and rare attainment , as the acknowledgement of supernaturall truth is in matters of religion , and the things of god , to be matter either of confiscation of goods , imprisonment , banishment , death , unto men : though it denies not a power of restraint from opposing the received faith , with publick disturbance and offence . . whereas in answer to somewhat argued by me to make the innocency of independencie touching matter of divisions , as cleare as the noone day , he repones thus ; that those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one church , will never questiolesse accord well together in one familie , bed , parish , kingdome , as experience manifests ; i answer , . that experience manifests the quite contrary . how many ministers of the presbyterian judgement are there in the kingdome , yea , in and about the citie , that hold communion in all deare and christian respects , and terms of love and friendship , with many called independent , and these againe with them ? the difference in judgement between them in point of church-government , in some rather increasing , then diminishing or dissolving their familiaritie and acquaintance . how oft doth mr. edwards himself in his antapologie , acknowledge his apologists to be dearly and deeply interessed in the love and care of many of his judgement a ? yea , he commends his own love and affections towards them , once and twice and the third time also b . how many families are there in and about the citie , wherein the respective members injoy themselves together with much christian sweetnesse and peace , notwithstanding relations to severall pastors & churches among them ? i had it from a person worthy credit in a greater matter , that a friend of his ( a man also very well knowne to my self , and knowne for a man both of honesty and understanding ) related to him ; how that having but foure persons in his familie , ( himself being one of the foure ) and every of these constantly repairing to a different congregation and ministery , yet liv'd very peaceably , comfortably , and contentedly together in the same house . yea , and that he moreover added ; that except he should grant this libertie to the rest respectively , he could not expect that good accord and agreement with them and between them in his family , which now he found . yea , . experience manifests yet more then this ; viz. that not onely persons dissenting in point of church-government , being otherwise united in the profession of the same pure , orthodox and undefiled religion ; but that persons dissenting in the very substantialls of their respective religions , doe lovingly and peaceably combine and live together , not onely in the same state or kingdome , but even in the same citie , yea , in the same street or neighbour-hood ; and are mutually helpfull and serviceable one to another in all matters of civill courtesie , often meet , eat and drink together ; yea , and are all of one heart and of one mind , in promoting and maintaining the peace and safety of the state where they live . i have received every whit as much as this in report from persons of good esteem and worth , who have been ey-witnesses and diligent observers of such things , both in the low-countries and in france . yea , . ( that which is yet more then all this ) the scripture it self implies , that persons , not onely distanced in their judgements about church-government , but about the god-head of christ , and truth of the true and christian religion , may not onely accord and agree together in one and the same state , as abraham and his people did with the amorites , gen. . . with the philistims at gerar , gen. . . with the aegyptians , gen. . . &c. christians with pagan idolaters , cor. . . but in the one and the same familie , yea , and hed also , cor. . , . . pet. . . &c. . and lastly , not onely experience , but even reason it self manifests , that those who cannot in point of conscience communicate and agree together in one church , may yet very well accord together , in one familie , bed , parish , kingdome : yea , evident it is , that they , who cannot in point of conscience agree together in one church , cannot possibly ( or lightly at least ) but agree together in familie , parish , bed , kingdome . for if it be conscience that sets them at a distance in matter of church-government , it must needs unite them in the performance of all such duties , which are cleerly and manifestly such . he that out of conscience abstains from any practise , as not being satisfied in his judgement touching the lawfulnesse thereof ; cannot but be ready and willing to practise every such dutie , of the necessitie where of he stands convinced , either by the light of nature , or by the word of god ; conscience being unpartiall between the negative and the affirmative , and equally respecting its own comfort and peace in both . now it is no wayes probable , ( if possible ) that such as are truly conscientious in point of church-government , should be ignorant of such duties required of them by god in the foure mentioned relations , family , parish , bed , kingdome , the practise and performance whereof will strongly and sweetly unite and accord them in the said relations , respectively . all these things considered , i cannot wonder a little , that the gentleman , who makes so many questions , should make that questionlesse in the negative , which is so palpably plain and questionlesse in the affirmative . but . whereas i onely argue and demonstrate , that the repairing of persons out of severall parishes to one and the same ministery or pastor , needs be no more trouble or disturbance , then the like repair of persons of the respective companies in london , to one and the same hall ; he represents this demonstration of mine , as if i thereby intended to prove or justifie the congregationall government simply , and accordingly insists upon differences between the one and the other . i know nothing but that he might easily have found out not onely , but differences , and have argued them all with as much pertinencie to his purpose , as he hath done the three . for we do not urge the analogie of the government of companies of corporations in all the relations or appurtenances belonging to it , as any ground or proof of the congregationall government ; we are better provided in this kind , then so : we onely urge the particular mentioned , to accommodate and heal the pretended offensivenesse in the like , in this government . notwithstanding let us briefly see what advantage he hath gotten against the independent way , by his great differences found between severall trades and hals in one citie , parish , kingdom , and severall forms of church-government . as to the first we answer . . that it is not so without dispute , as he makes it , whether all trades , societies , bold one another lawfull , usefull , necessarie , agreeable to the laws of god , and the realme . i know both some trades , yea and some societies too in london , much questioned upon all , or most of these particulars . but passe we this . whereas he infers upon it , that so they breed no contrarietie of opinions or disaffections , &c. we answer . . that certainly experience doth not manifest this contentions , differences , disaffections , yea and law-suits sometimes betweene trades and trades , societies and societies , are known occurrences in and about the citie . whereas he addes : that each different church deems the other unlawfull , so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together , and thereupon sever one from another ; we answer . . that according to mr. prynnes notion of church-government , it is not necessarie that each different church should judge the other unlawfull , &c. because he supposeth , that the scripture is so indulgent in this behalf , as to leave roome enough for variety of forms of this government . so that if he will but give others leave to be of his judgement , this reasoning of his fals to the ground . but fourthly ( and lastly ) though each different church do deem the other unlawfull , and so cannot with safe conscience communicate together in church-ship ; yet this hinders not , but that they may judge and think as well one of anothers persons ( and consequently love and affect one another , and combine together as affectionately , ) as persons of severall trades and societies do ; who have no more communion together in their respective trades , then different churches have in their respective churches ; yea , there is far better ground ( as hath been partly touched already ) why different churches , though they deemeach other unlawfull , should yet think better of , yea and love the respective members each of other , then there is , that persons of severall trades , or members of severall civill societies , should do either the one or the other among themselves . to his second difference , i answer , . that experience manifests the contrary to what he here affirms , viz. that the subordination or subjection of severall trades , societies , to the whole corporation , parliament , or supreame magistrate , doth not keep them all in peace and writie . what contentiones , quarrels , emulations , suits amongst them from day to day , any such subordination or subjection notwithstanding ? . whereas by way of opposition he addes , that independent churches will be regulated , obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts , which must needs occasion infinite schismes and disorders ; we answer . . we wish that by way of commendation and praise in many cases , to parliaments , temporall magistrates , and synods , which is here cast upon independent churches by way of imputation and charge , i mean regulation and obligement by their own peculiar edicts . but . whereas the charge is thus laid against these churches , that they will be regulated , obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts ; the truth is , that they are every whit as willing to be regulated , obliged , by the edicts of any other , as by their own , alwayes provided that they be conform to the word , and this conformitie sufficiently proved and made known unto them . they put no difference at all between the mind of christ presented unto them by others or discovered and found out by themselves . yea and that subordination and subjection which they all professe and own to the written word of god , is a farre more effectuall and hopefull means , to keep them all in peace and unitie , then that subordination mentioned by mr. prynne , is to keep all trades and societies in the same precious posture . onely in this one thing these poore independent churches desire parliaments and magistrates and synods to be mercifull unto them , that they cannot write any of them , infallible , nor yet subscribe unto any their injunctions or decisions in matters of faith , or which concern the worship and service of god , without retaining the scriptures for their counsell , and advising with them what to do therein . to his third and last difference also , we answer . . that he saith very well , in point of truth , when he saith , that christians , as christians , are all of one and the self same society and profession , as those of one trade and calling are . but this truth as yet , is not at all conscious to his intention or purpose . therefore he addes : therefore they should all have but one church and government , as these trades have . nor doth this , if granted , make any whit more for the presbyterian cause , then for the independent : because it doth not follow ; christians , as christians , ought all to have one and the same church and government : therefore this church and government ought to be presbyterian . take a parallel : simeon and levi ought to have been brethren : therefore they ought to have been brethren in iniquitie . take another : a●ania● and sapphira , being man and wife , ought to have agreed together : therefore they ought to have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the lord. but . if by his one church , he means , one and the same catholique , mysticall , and invisible church ; we answer , that christians , as christians , have all one and the same church ; in this sense , they are all members of this one church . but if he means , one and the same ministeriall and visible church , we answer , by demanding , how can this thing be ? we have heard indeed of some oecumenicall councels ; but of oecumenicall visible churches , wherein all christians should be comprehended as members , i beleeve there hath been oecumenicall silence unto this day . . whereas he goeth about to set the comparison ( of his own making ) upright , by stating it thus : if some of one fraternitie in london ( suppose merchant-t tylors , sadlers , &c. ) should fall out among themselves , and one would have one form of government , another another , and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and pety meetings in corners , not at their common hall , and one chuse one government or master , another another , and so sever the company , and continue independent , this ( no doubt ) would prove an apparent schisme and seminary of infinite divisions , to the distraction , destruction of the whole company and fraternitie ; and then addes , this is the true state of your independencie : we answer , that the comparison thus stated holds no proportion or correspondence with the state of independencie . for , . that number of christians which pleads for independencie ( so called ) is not the whole socieitie of christians ( nor indeed any confiderable part thereof , in respect of number ) as that fraternitie of merchant-tayloes or sadlers the comparison speaks of , is therein supposed to be the whole societie of such a company . therefore to set mr. prynnes comparison upright , and make it agree with the state of independencie , in this particular , it must be stated thus ; suppose two or three members of a numerous and vast companie , consisting ( it may be ) of ten or twenty thousand persons , should differ from the rest of the societie in some things about their government , and hereupon should withdraw themselvs from that society , and seek incorporation elsewhere ; would such a dissent or withdrawing of so few from amongst so many , any waies threaten the distraction , much lesse the destruction of the whole company ? . suppose a considerable part of a company , should out of a conscientious dislike of the carriage of things in the government of the body withdraw themselves , and refuse subjection to this government so ordered and administred ; though in probabilitie this act of theirs may occasion some distraction or disturbance in the rest of the body for a season ; yet supposing it done upon substantiall and due grounds , it may be so farre bringing destruction to this body , that very possibly it may occasion the reformation and amendment of those things that were unjust in this government , ( and consequently destructive to the bodie ) and so become a means of the preservation of it from destruction . and this is the true state of our independencie . . in case the fraternity of merchant-taylors in london should fall out amongst themselves , and one would have one form of government , and another another , and thereupon divide themselves , &c. what ever inconvenience should , or might hereupon ensue to the company , yet still it was determined by equall and prudent judges , who , or which partie gave the chief occasion of these distractions and rents ; there is no reason why any one partie should fall foule upon all the rest , and give an extrajudiciall sentence for themselves . for any thing that god hath yet determined to the contrary , the independent partie of christians in the kingdom , may be as innocent ( yea more innocent ) of the breaches and distractions amongst us in point of church government , them the presbyterian . they that call and plead for that government which is held forth in the scriptures , calling and pleading for it in a regular , meek and christian manner , are those that are innocent ; and those that call and plead for any other , or indeed for any in a violent , preposterous , and unchristian manner , ( light the stroke where it will ) are those that are guiltie . i confesse that in one respect , and that of very great consequence , i could really wish that the beam were in the eye of independencie , and the moat in the eye of presbyterie ; because in this case it would ( i conceive ) be the sooner and the more easily plucked out . for as austin said long since : vitiun quod inebriat multitudinem , examinis amittit veritatem . a sin or error that hath taken the heads and hearts of a multitude , is hardly curable a an error in a few , is but as smoke , it may be approach'd unto , handled , and dealt with , without danger : but in many it becomes a flame of fire ; and he that attempts the quenching of it , had need purifie himself , as men at sea do , when they see the breakings of leviathan , and look for nothing but present death . job . . . . in case any parcell or lesse number of the company of merchant-taylors in london , could not with a good conscience continue their union and incorporation with the societie , apprehending some things sinfull amongst them , of the sinfulnesse whereof they conceive an unavoidable necessitie that themselves must be partakers , whilest they continue their relation to the company , the rest of the company all this while resenting no evill in the things stumbled at by those other , and so are able to keep on their way without scruple ; in this case it is so farre from being a thing destructive to this company , that the partie so scrupul'd , should withdraw , that it is the best accommodation , thing standing as they do , whereof they are capable ; it being certain that no company or societie whatsoever but suffers losse and disadvantage by union and communion with such members , who walk with gainsaying judgements , and polluted consciences with them . and this also is the true state of independencie . the great communitie and societie of christians in the kingdom , suffer farre lesse by the independents withdrawing of themselves from the presbyterian government , their judgements in this point standing as they do , then they would by their joyning with them therein . their joyning with them under the reclamation of their judgements and conscieaces , would but disaccommodate both parties ; whereas their refusall in this kind , convenienceth both ; and so hath the true character of a legitimate contract or bargain between man and man , which still ought to be so conditioned , that both parties may be bettered in their conditions by it . therefore mr. prynne hath not set the comparison upright to the point in hand . . and lastly , there is no arguing in divinitie , either from conveniences or inconveniences , from disturbances or from peace , from life or from death , against the necessitie of avoiding sin , and keeping a good and a cleere conscience towards god. therefore supposing that the company of merchant-taylors in london , would by such fractions and divisions amongst the members thereof , as are presented in mr. prynnes comparison , be in danger of ruine and dissolution ; yet better were it that this ruine & dissolution should come upon it , then that god should be dishonoured by the least sin , or the meanest soule indangered , for the presevation of it a . in like manner , it is more agreeable to the mind of god , and to all principles of christianitie , that even the greatest numbers and multitudes of christians should rather suffer , though very deep , in their externall conveniences , then that the least sin should be committed by the meanest of them , for their accommodation . and this likewise is the true state of things between our independency , and mr. prynnes presbyterie . many other particulars there are , wherein it might be made further to appeare , how ill his comparison comports with the case and state of independencie : but enough ( as the proverb saith ) is as good as a feast . to what he subjoyns concerning my present case in my own parish , miserably divided , disordered by my independent way , &c. i have answered in part in my innocencies triumph . i here adde . that my parish is no otherwise divided , disordered , by my independent way , then the world commonly is by the gospel , when it cometh in power amongst the inhabitants thereof . think not ( saith our saviour ) that i am come to send peace on earth : i came not to send peace , but a sword . for i am come to set a man at variance against his father , and the daughter against the another , and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-low : and a mans foes shall be they of his owne houshold , mat. . , , . . it was not my independent way , ( as mr. prynne affirmeth ) but the opposition to it , that caused those divisions , disorders , ( if any such be ) in my parish : if the partie which now opposeth , had been willing , either to have complied with him whom they acknowledged for their pastor , and the rest of their brethren , who submitted themselves unto him in this way ; or else patiently to have waited upon god , untill he should please to reveale the goodnesse of the way unto them , in case they saw no sufficient ground at the present , for their submission in this kind ( as many of the best of them have done hitherto : ) there had been no place for any division or disorder amongst them . and whether it be not more fitting , for a people to follow their pastor , giving them substantiall grounds and reasons for that way wherein he desires to lead them ; then for a pastor to follow his people in such a way , whereof they neither give , nor ( i verily beleeve ) can give , any account like men , i leave to mr. prynne , and all unpartiall judges , to determine . . ( and lastly ) nothing is more regular , or of more constant observation in all ages , then for troubles , commotions , and disturbances , to attend for a while , any considerable mutation or change , especially , for the better , either made , or attempted to be made , in any state or societie of men whatsoever . calvin in his preface before his institutions , dedicated to the king of france , complains a of the indirect and unworthy dealings of his adversaries , who charged the preaching of the doctrine of the gospel , with being the cause of i know not what troubles , tumults , and contentions ; whereas such things as these , should have been charged upon the militia or agents of the devill . and then addes this memorable saying : est hic divini verbi quidam quasi genius , ut nunquam emergat , quieto ac dormiente satana : it is ( as it were ) the lot and destinie of the word of god , never to find satan in a good mood , or asleep , when it comes abroad into the world : in the following words , making this a most certaine and faithfull mark or signe , whereby it is discern'd from false doctrines , which ( saith he ) soone bewray themselves by this , that the world applauds them in the hearing , and gives them intertainment in a posture of fairnesse , favour , and peace . what storms , tempests , whirle-winds of troubles , tumults , commotions , did satan and his auxiliaries raise in all places and parts in the world b , wheresoever luthers doctrine and reformation did but touch , to render them the hatred and indignation of the world ? yea , and luther himself doubted not to raise it to a generall maxime or observation , that godly men must beare the name & title of men that are seditious , schismaticall , and authors of infinite evills and troubles in the world . c that great and blessed alteration and change that god made in the state of religion , and things of his worship , by the sending of jesus christ into the world , and the preaching of the gospel , is called the shaking of the heavens and the earth d , because of the great concussions , troubles , distractions , rents , and divisions , in the great concussions , troubles , distractions , rents , and divisions , in the world , which did ( and doe yet daily ) accompany them , by reason of the pride , ignorance , and unbeliefe of those which oppose either the one or the other . and as the doctrine of the gospel in the generall , never comes amongst any people in excellencie and power , but that it smites the foundations of that unitie and peace wherein it finds them , makes breaches upon them , renting one part of them from another , upon which discontents and disorders follow like the waves of the sea ; in like manner , every considerable piece or branch of the gospel , in the first discovery and breaking out of it , even in such places , and among such persons , where and amongst whom the doctrine of the gospel in the generall hath been of a long time professed , by reason of the strangenesse of it , and that contrarietie and crossenesse which it beares to the judgements and wills of many , must needs be offensive and distastefull unto them , and so occasion distractions , disorders , discontents . so that mr. prynne by representing my parish as divided , disordered by my independent way , hath rather given testimony to the truth and evangelicalnesse of it , then brought any argument to disprove either . and to say ( as he doth a few lines after ) that he needs no other evidence to prove it a schismaticall by-path , and so no way of christ , then the schismes and discords which it hath raised in other parishes , is just such a saying and resolution , as that of the high priest against our saviour , when he rent his cloaths , and said , he hath spoken blasphemie : what further need have we of witnesses * ? the blasphemie of christ , and the guiltinesse of independencie touching the matter of division and disorder , are sins much of the same order and calculation . to his fourth and last reason , which renders him a man of jealousie against the way of independencie , and prevailes with him so farre , that he cannot ( as he saith ) think it a way of christ ; wee answer . . that this way is no pioner or underminer of parliamentarie authoritie : nor hath mr. prynne found it , nor ever shall find it such : the principles of this way being none other then what are laid in the scriptures , unpossible it is , that it should destroy , or pull downe any thing , which they build up . therefore if mr. prynne hath ought in this kind against any of the sons of this way , let him implead these in a lawfull triall , and spare not ; but if for their sakes he will needs blaspheme the way , he will open a dore of example very effectuall for those that are opposite to his way of presbyterie , to heap shame , infamie and reproach upon the head thereof without end ; ( yea , and for those also that are enemies to christian religion , to render that as hatefull , wicked , vile in the eyes of men , as themselves can desire it should be esteemed ) . if all the errors and misprisions found in the writings of presbyteriall men , should be charged upon the way of presbyterie , as the authoresse and foundresse of them , she would appeare ten times more erroneous and deformed , then her independent adversaries are yet willing to judge or conceive her to be . . for the sons or patrons of this way ( as mr. prynne pleaseth to term them ) i verily beleeve , that there is none of them all , but are willing , ready and chearfull to invest parliaments with as full , high , and compleat a power and authoritie , as are by any , by all the rules and principles , either of reason , or religion , competible unto men . if mr. prynne , or any other of the presbyterian way , conceive that in times of parliaments , when they apprehend them like to be for them , they may and ought to say , that gods are come down to us in the likenesse of men * ; we confesse , that we cannot ( our reason , our religion will not beare it at our hands ) subscribe any such apotheosie . but let him and his , first survey the territories , patrimonie , and heritance of heaven , the royalties and prerogative of the most high god , and of the lord jesus christ , blessed for ever , and set them out by the line and rule either of reason , or religion ; and look what power , authoritie , jurisdiction soever , shall be found situate , lying and being without the compasse of this line , no waies enterfeering with those that are within , wee all unanimously , universally professe , that incunctanter , and with both our hands we will cast and heap it upon the parliament , asking no further question for conscience sake . therefore whereas he challengeth this way , for devesting parliaments of all manner of jurisdiction in matters of religion and church-government ; we answer , . that neither this way , nor the patrons of it , devest them of any , or any manner of authoritie in what matters soever , unto which mr. prynne , or any other master of the presbyterian way , is able , salvo jure coeli , to entitle them . for jurisdiction in matters of religion and church-government , we willingly give unto them the same line , measure , and proportion herein to the full , which himself asserteth unto them from the examples of those kings and princes , cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , &c. ( which he insists upon p. . ) who ( as he here said ) enacted good and wholsome lawes , for the worship , honour and service of the true god. let him instance particularly in any such law , or lawes , enacted by any of them : and ( doubtlesse ) none of us will denie the parliament a power of enacting ( exceptis excipiendis ) the like . but if mr. prynnes intent be to make precedent of whatsoever was enacted or done by any , or all of these heathen kings , princes , and states , to warrant a lawfulnesse of power in the parliament of enacting or doing the same , we conceive that he neither hath , nor knows where to have any thing to justifie such an intent . i trust that that law enacted by nebuchadnezzar and his nobles , dan. . . that whosoever falleth not downe and worshippeth , shall the same houre be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace , shall not be drawne by him into precedent , for the vindication of a parliamentary jurisdiction in matters of religion and church-government . . whereas to make good his last charge against the way so often smitten by his pen , he referres to the passage of the two independent brethren recited p. . of his independencie examined , adding ( after a parenthesis of much untruth , there being many that have represented the way he speaks of in her native colours and lineaments a ) that i rather aggravate , then extenuate the guiltie of the said passage , by my explanation , which he there recites ; i answer , . that for matter of guilt , the passage referred unto , standeth as yet , cleare , innocent , and untouch'd , as concerning any thing in way of demerit , that hath been prov'd against it . . as concerning the explanation , that also keeps its standing , and that upon holy ground , notwithstanding all that mr. prynne hath done , or attempted to doe , for the removall of it ; — manet illa , suóque est robore tuta . yea , the truth is , that in all his contra-remonstrance , he hath not so much as once touch'd or mentioned that which is the maine base or foundation of the principall conclusion managed in the said explanation , and principally opposed by him . the conclusion is not that which mr. prynne extracts from the passage which he cites , viz. that there is not onely an improbabilitie , but an absolute impossibilitie , that the parliament should have any power at all to enact lawes and statutes in matters of religion , church-government , &c. here are words , which the explanation knows not , either in the letter , or in the spirit of them , as by name these , not onely an improbabilitie , an absolute impossibilitie , no power at all , &c. but the maine conclusion driven at in the passage , is this ; that the generalitie or promiscuous multitude of the land , have no authoritie or power from christ to nominate or appoint , who shall be the men that shall order the affaires of christs kingdome , or institute the government of his churches . the maine foundation or base of reason , upon which this pillar of truth stands in the said passage , is this ; because such an authoritie or power ( viz. to nominate or appoint who shall order the affaires of christs kingdome , or institute the government of his churches ) is greater then ever christ himself had , ( i meane as man , or mediator ) at least then ever he exercised , which in the sequell i explaine and prove . now then this is that which i say , that mr. prynne in all his long reasoning against the conclusion , doth not so much as with the least of his fingers once touch this ground , or answer any thing at all to it . so that he hath not as yet the least colour or pretence to blame me , if i be not proselyted to his opinion by what he hath written here . and because i desire faire and christian quarter with him for the future , i doe here promise and protest in the sight of god , angels , and men , that if mr. prynne shall at any time ( god preserving my life and understanding ) plainly and substantially demonstrate and prove , either that the generalitie , and promiscuous multitude of the land , have a power greater then ever the lord christ himself had , or exercised as man , or mediator ; or , that a power to nominate and appoint whom they please amongst men , to order the affaires of christs kingdome , and institute the government of his churches , is not a power greater then ever christ had , or at least exercised , as either man , or mediator ; i promise and protest againe , as before , that if mr. prynne , or any other , shall at any time clearly and fairly prove , either the one or the other of these propositions , i will pull downe with both mine hands , what i have built up but with one , and without any more adoe joyn judgement with mr. prynne touching the power of the civill magistrate in matters of religion : but till this be done , i neither see how mr. prynne can with a good conscience persist in his , nor require me to desist from mine . it is true , the lord christ as mediator , had all power given him both in heaven and on earth , mat. . . that is , had the whole and intire execution and transaction of all his fathers will , pleasure , and decrees , concerning all men , angels & creatures whatsoever , put into his hand & power . and hath given him authoritie to execute judgement also , because he is the son of man , joh. . . but he had no power or authoritie given him , to carry any thing contrary to his fathers will or pleasure . verily , verily , i say unto you , ( saith he himself , joh. . . ) the son can doe nothing of himself , but what he seeth the father doe , &c. so againe , ver . . i can doe nothing of my self — now then as christ had no commission or power to give eternall life , but onely to those whom god the father had given unto him , joh. . . joh. . . so neither had he any authoritative power to institute or appoint any other government for his churches , then that which he had seene with , or received from his father : much lesse had he any such power , to delegate unto men ( least of all unto unsanctified persons and rude multitudes ) a power of nominating whom they should please , to appoint and settle what government they pleas'd in the churches of god. certain i am , that christ never exercised any such power as this : and therefore have little hope of being convinc'd that he ever had it . howsoever , let us give the gentleman an unpartial hearing in what he pleads against the aforesaid conclusion . . to his former marginall annotation ( p. . ) honoured with a preface made of this word , note , wherein he tells me that gamaliel and my text never taught me any such anti-parliamentary doctrine . i answer , that neither doth gamaliel , nor my text , nor any other text whatsoever in scripture , teach mr. prynne to call the truth an anti-parliament try doctrine . but both gamaliel and my text teach me to take heed of fighting against god ; and i being taught so high and necessary a point of wisdome , conceiv'd it my dutie not to eat such a morsell alone , but to spread a table for as many of my brethren as pleas'd to come , and sit downe and eat of the same with me . i and my doctrine are onely in such a sense anti-parliamentarian , as christ and his were anti-cesarean . . to a second marginall note in the same page , ordered likewise to be noted ( as the former ) i answer likewise , that though people have authoritie to nominate such who by the rule of gods word may limit some particulars , though not by their own bare authoritie , without , or against the word , yet it followeth not ; either . that they have authoritie to nominate such , who shall have authoritie by vertue of such nomination to peremptorize by fire or sword all their limitations whatsoever , as agreeable to gods word . nor . doth it follow , that , in case their limitations should be agreeable to the word of god , therefore they have power to compell any man by externall violence , to subject either in their judgement or practise unto them ; especially whilst they are not able to convince them of any such excellency in these limitations , as an agreeablenesse to the word of god ? it is no waies agreeable to the word of god , that men should be punish'd either in their bodies or estates , for not siding with the truth in difficult and hard questions ; as all such may well be presum'd to be , wherein sober and conscientious persons cannot be satisfied . the word of god doth not permit two persons or parties of a dissenting judgement about an hard case or question , to judge or think hardly one of another a ; much lesse doth it permit them to punish , or lay violent hands one upon another . nor . and lastly , doth it follow , that , though princes , magistrates , ministers , parliaments , synods , should be nominated or elected by the lawfull power of the people , and withall should have authoritie by the word of god to limit any particulars thereof ; that therefore this authoritie should be deriv'd upon them by means of such nomination . every private man hath sufficient authoritie , ( though perhaps he may want abilitie of gifts ) to limit any particular in the word of god according to the word of god ; this being nothing else but a true and right apprehending or understanding of this word . which apprehension or understanding of his , though he hath no power by way of office to impart unto others , yet hath he a right , yea , and an obligation upon him by way of dutie , so to impart it , when god affords season and opportunitie , time and place for it . so that this marginall note is not accessory to any harme done to the said conclusion . . to a third marginall note subservient in the same page to the two former , i answer , . that though it should be granted , that every magistrate , parliament and synod have power to declare and injoyn , what is necessarie to be beleeved , practised , by or according to gods word , yet this is nothing more then what every pastor or minister over a congregation , hath power to do , yea and ought to do b from day to day in the course of his ministery . but . if by declaring and enjoyning , he means any such declaring and enjoyning , whereby magistrate , parliament , or synod , shall be enabled temporally to punish those who shall either not beleeve , or not practise ; i answer , that this is but petitio principii , a supposall of that which is the main question ; and therefore waits still upon mr. prynne's pen for a more sufficient proof , the old writ of ipse dixit , being out of date long since . we have reconciled the margent ; and nothing doubt but that the page will be of as easie accommodation . therefore . whereas he puts himself to the needlesse labour of repeating the charge formerly charged upon my doctrine , a an underminer of the authority of parliaments , &c. i shall take admonition by it , and save a needlesse labour of repeating what hath been already said in way of answer to it . onely i shall adde , that this repetition of mr. prinnes judgement and charge of my fore-mentioned doctrine , compared with my own thoughts and apprehensions of it , puts me in mind of a saying of a great casuist : eadem possunt alicui videri manifestè vera , quae alteri videntur manifestè falsa . the same things may seem to one manifestly true , which to another seem as manifestly false . that doctrine which mr. prynne arraigns as an underminer of parliamentary authority , i conceive to be a doctrine of the richest establishment and confirmation to it : of which apprehension of mine , i have given a sufficient account elsewhere . . whereas he further chargeth the said doctrine with contrarietie to my late covenant and protestation , and that in the most transcendent manner that ever any have hitherto attempted in print ; and refers himself to all wise men to judge , whether this be not so ; i referre both himself and all his wise men , to judge , whether i have not given a sufficient answer hereunto in my innocencies triumph . p. , , , &c. yet lest sentence should be given against me herein , i here adde , that certainly no clause in that covenant and protestation intended , that the subscribers unto it should be bound in conscience by vertue of such subscription , to make gods of men , or ( which interpreted , amounts to as much ) to give any man dominion over his faith a . if this be but granted , my doctrine is no delinquent at all against the covenant and protestation . . whereas he promises , or threatens ( which he pleaseth ) short answer to my extravagant discourse ; and first alledgeth that the objection might be made against the generall assemblies , parliaments , kings of the israelites , who were chosen by the people , yet they made laws and statutes concerning religion , and gods worship , with his approbation : i answer . . that the , generall assemblies , and kings of israel , were not chosen by the people , at least by any formall free choice of one out of many , as our parliaments and assemblies are . for first the generall assemblies consisted of the generalitie of the people , and so were not chosen at all ; for where all are admitted , there is no choice . or secondly , if by the generall assemblies of israel , he means the seventy persons spoken of , numb . . . . &c. it is evident from the context , first , that they were not chosen by the people into that assembly , but by moses , and that by expresse order and command from god. they might possibly be chosen by the people into the places of elders and governours over their respective families and tribes ; but they had no right or calling by vertue of such eldership , to gather themselves into an assembly of seventy , upon any such terms , or for any such ends , as the fore-mentioned assembly were drawn together by god. secondly , evident like-wise it is , from ver . . that these seventy had a speciall anointing of the holy ghost from god , and prophecied . therefore there is a great difference between this assembly , and generall assemblies now . . neither were the kings of israel chosen by the people , but by god ; except we will call a subsequent consent and that by way of duty and homage to the choice made by god , a choice . when thou shalt come unto the land which the lord thy god giveth thee , and shalt possesse it and dwell therein , if thou say , i will set a king over me , like as all the nations that are about me , then shalt thou make him king over thee , whom the lord thy god shall chvse , &c. deut. . , . saul their first king , was chosen and appointed by god , sam. . , . so david their second king , sam. . . yea his seed likewise was chosen and appointed by god to succeed in this kingdom , and to reign after him for ever , sam. . . . yea and notwithstanding this generall choice and designation , solomon their king , is particularly said to have been chosen by god , chron. . . so for the kings that reigned over the ten tribes , after the rent of the ten tribes from the other two ; jeroboam , the first king , was chosen by god , king. . . yea and his seed also , conditionally , ver . . but nadah his son , proving wicked , brake the condition , and cut off the intailment . their third king , baasha , was not chosen by the people neither , but was fore-chosent by god , king. . . to do that execution upon the house of ieroboam , which is recorded , king. . , , . elab their next king succeeded his father , by right of inheritance , and is no where said to have been chosen by the people into the throne . zimri the next , was a bloody traytor and usurper . the two next following him , omri and tibni , were set up indeed by the people , but not in any way of a lawfull and regular election , but by way of tumult and faction : and the one partie prevailing , the king followed by the other , was soon suppressed . ahab the son of the prevailing king , without any election by the people ( except a connivence or permission , be called an election ) by the ascent of descent or succession got up into the throne . after the same manner also ahaziah his son came to be king. this ahaziath dying without children , his brother jeboram ( another son of ahath , and next to him by birth , as it seems ) by the priviledge of his birth came peaceably to the kingdom , without any election by the people any where heard of . king. . . the next king , jehu by name , was chosen by god himself after a speciall manner , king. . , . and his children after him to the fourth generation ( king. . . ) to sit upon the throne of israel , shallum , who succeeded ahab and his race , ( their date of reiglement being expired ) came to the kingdome by blood ; and is indeed said to have smote zachariah ( the last of ahabs race ) before the people , and so to have reigned in his stead : ( king. . . ) but by what maxime enle ley , the murthering of a king before the people , will be interpreted , a being chosen king by the people , i understand not . menahem his successor after a moneths reigne , found the same way to the kingdome ( i mean , by blood ) which his predecessour had chalked out . pekahiah his son and successour , had no other choice we read of , but onely by that his relation . nor had pekah who succeeded him in the throne , any other choice into this dignitie , but onely by the murther he committed upon his master ; except it be said , that he was chosen by those . men who assisted him in that bloody execution . . king. . . nor had hoshea ( the last of these kings ) any other choice , entrance , or accesse we read of unto the throne , but the same with his predecessor , a bloodie conspiracie against his lord and master . so that mr. prynne is absolutely mistaken in the very bottome and groundwork of his first allegation , affirming the generall assemblies , parliament , kings of the israelites , to have been chosen by the people . . ( and lastly ) neither did they make laws and statutes concerning religion and gods worship , with his approbation , except his approbation went along with the transgression of his law. for by this they stood expresly charg'd , not to adde unto the word which he commanded them , nor yet to diminish ought from it . deut. . . and againe , deut. . . and what addition could be made with an higher hand , or with more provocation in the sight of god , unto this word of his , then an enacting laws and statutes concerning religion , and his worship , whereunto men should stand bound in conscience to submit , as well as unto the lawes of god themselves declared in this word ? or if it be said , that men were not bound in conscience to submit to such laws and statutes , as well as unto the laws of god ; then were they not to be punished for non-submission to them , unlesse we will say , that men ought to be punished for somewhat else , besides sin . to his second reason against the doctrine and conclusion aforesaid , i answer , that as god himself used the ministery , assistance of cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , for the building of his temple , and advancement of his worship , for which they made decrees , statutes ; so i conceive he doth expect and require the ministery , assistance of christian magistrates , parliaments , and laws and statutes to be made by them , for the promotion of his worship , but as cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , made no decree , statute , to discourage any of the true worshipers of god , nor yet to compell them to any kinde of worship , contrary ( in their judgements ) to the word of god ; or in case they did make , or should have made , any such decree , statute , they should have exceeded the limits of their just power , and not have done justifiably in the sight of god ; so neither can christian princes , magistrates , commend themselves unto god in any such exercise of their power , whereby they shall constraine or enforce the conscientious & faithfull servants of god to any kind of worship , contrary to their conscience , or by the performance whereof , condemning it in their judgements for unlawfull , they should pollute and condemne themselves in the sight of god. to his third reason we answer likewise ; that for most christian kings and magistrates in the world , whether claiming to be hereditarie , or whether eligible by the people , as the members of parliament are , we can without either disloyaltie or absurdity , deny them any such authority in matters of religion and church-government , whereby they should be enabled to destroy , crush , or undo such persons as live godlily and peaceably under their jurisdiction , and that for none other reason or offence on their parts , but either for weaknesse in judgement and understanding , by reason whereof they cannot see the agreeablenesse of those things that are imposed on them , to the word of god , ( in case they be indeed so qualified ) or else for the goodnesse of their conscience , which is unwilling to ship-wrack it s own peace , by going contrarie to its own light and dictate . we freely allow to all christian kings and magistrates in the world , any authoritie whatsoever in matters of religion , church-government , or in what other causes or cases soever it can be desired either by them , or for them , which will not claim or challenge a right of power to punishmen for not being as wise , as learned , as farre insighted into matters of religion as themselves , or for such matters of fact which are occasioned directly and meerly by such defects as these . we allow a power to all magistrates to punish the wickednesse of mens wils ; when this discovers it self by any sutable action in what matters or cases soever : but the weaknesse of mens judgements , we conceive cals rather for means of instruction , then matter of punishment , from the magistrates hand . we cannot judge , that the mistaking of a mans way in a dark controversie , deserves a prison , or any other stroke with the civill sword . to his fourth we answer ; . that whereas he affirms , that i do not onely grant , but argue , that every private man hath , yea ought to have , power to elect and constitute his own minister , causing these words to be printed in a differing character , as if they were mine , and onely transcribed by him , citing ( in his margin ) pag. . . as their quarter in my discourse ; the truth is , that this is no fair play ; for there is no such line or juncto of wordseither in either of those pages , or elsewhere in those sermons . it never came into my thoughts to think , ( nor surely ever issued out of my pen ) that every private man hath , or ought to have a power to constitute his own minister . and besides he puts a more quaint and subtlle distinction upon me , then i am capable of . i cannot conceive that any private man hath a power to elect or constitute his minister , except he ought to have it . that power which god hath been pleased to conferre upon any man , he both ought to have , and hath ; though the exercise and benefit of that power may be injuriously denied unto him , or withheld from him . . whereas he further presumes , that i will grant , that private men have power likewise to set up independent congregations , which have authoritie to prescribe such covenants , laws and rules of government , discipline , worship , as themselves think most agreeable to the word ; and hereupon demands ; if then they may derive such an ecclesiasticall authority to independent ministers and churches , why not as well to parliaments , and synods likewise by the self-same reason ? i answer , . that he is mistaken in his good opinion of my bountie . for i do not grant , either first , that all , or every sort of , private men have power to set up any independent congregation . or . that any private men have power to set up any such congregation consisting of other men then themselves : but onely to agree together amongst themselves to become such a congregation . or . that any congregation whatsoever hath any authoritie to practise , much lesse to prescribe either such covenants , laws , rules of government , or worship , as themselves onely think most agreeable to the word of god ; but onely to practise those amongst themselves which they know to be agreeable to the word of god ; without prescribing either these or any other , unto others . god gives no person or congregation any authoritie or power so much as to practise themselves what they simple think most agreeable to his word , but onely that which really is agreeable unto his word ; much lesse doth he give either the one or the other any authority to prescribe their thinkings in this kind unto others . but . whereas he demands , why private men may not derive an ecclesiasticall authority unto parliaments and synods , as well as unto independent ministers and churches ; the account is readie : . no private men whatsoever , can in any sense , neither in whole , nor in part , derive any ecclesiasticall authority , either unto any minister , but onely him , unto whom they commit the charge of their ●ouls ; nor unto any congregation , but onely that whereof they are members themselves . therefore it no wayes follows ; private men have power to derive ecclesiasticall authoritie to those congregations whereof they are the respective members themselves : therefore they have the like power to derive the same authority to parliaments , and synods , whereof they are no members : take a parallel : the assistants in the company of chirurgians , have an interest in the government and carriage of the affairs of their own companie ; therefore they have the same interest in the government of the affairs of the company , of merchant-taylors . . a person qualified for the office and work of the ministery according to the word of god , is a subject capable of ecclesiasticall authority ; and may accordingly by persons authorized by the word of god thereunto , be lawfully invested with that power : but we have no rule or direction from the word of god either . to judge whether , or when , either parliaments or synods are subjects capable of ecclesiasticall authoritie : nor . is there any rule or warrant to be found there for the authorizing of any sort , or rank of men , actually to conferre such an authority or power , in case they should be found subjects capable of it . therefore mr. prynnes arguing in this place , is of no better form , or strength , then this : private men may do that which gods word authorizeth them to do : therefore they may do that also , which gods word doth not authorize them unto . but . ( and lastly ) the main foundation and ground-work upon which he builds the fabrique of his reasoning here , is an utter mistake . for i neither grant nor think , that private men , either when by consent they first congregate themselves and chuse a minister or pastor over them , much lesse when they joyn themselves to a congregation already gathered and form'd , do derive any ecclesiasticall authority unto it : but that a company of persons fearing god , and consenting together to become a church-body or holy congregation , have an authoritie ( which you may call ecclesiastique , if you please ; but i shall not commend the terme unto you in this case , nor would i willingly call it an authoritie , but rather a right or priviledge ) derived unto them , not by themselves , but from god. first to chuse unto themselves a pastor , and other officers , as opportunity shall be , such as are recommended in the scriptures as meet for such places , and then by , and together , with these to administer and order their church-affaires , in all the concernments thereof , according to the word of god , in the name and authoritie of our lord jesus christ , whose properly , all ecclesiasticall authoritie is . to his fift argument , we answer , . by a demurre , whether god doth oft-times makes use of unsanctified persons , and the rude multitude ( which i doe not under-value , because i refuse to entitle them to a power in church-matters greater then ever the apostles had ) to advance his glory , propagate his gospel , promote his worship , vindicate his truth , edifie his church . a judas , a balaam , a saul , a gamaliel , a persecuting high priest , were not the rude multitude : unsanctified persons it is like they were , at least most of them : but god did not oft-times make use either of balam , or saul , or gamaliel , or the persecuting high priest , either to propagate his gospel , promote his worship , edifie his church , &c. but the devill oft-times made use of them to the contrary , viz. to hinder his gospel , to pollute his worship , to persecute his church , &c. and for the vulgar multitude , which he commends as none-such , for forwardnesse to beleeve , follow , professe christ , embrace the gospel , though he confesseth , that many of them did it for sinister ends ; i answer , . that this multitude was but one swallow , ( not a multitude of swallows ) and therefore not sufficient to make his spring , of gods oft-times using the rude multitude to doe such and such things . . they that beleeve , follow , professe christ , embrace the gospel out of sinister ends , when they decline and fall back ( as all sinister-ended professors are like to doe first , or last , and as this vulgar multitude generally did ) are like more to hinder and set back the gospel by their declining , then ever they propagated or promoted it by their profesion . but . whereas he inferres , that therefore they may well have power to chuse such persons , who shall and may make lawes , to promote the gospel and government of the church of christ ; i answer . . that gods power to make use of unsanctified persons , or a rude multitude to promote the affaires of his gospel , worship , churches , &c. is no argument to prove , that therefore men may commit the care and trust of these affaires to such persons or multitudes , or interesse them in any such power , which it is ten to one but they will use rather in a destructive , then promotive way thereunto . gods power to powre out a spirit of prophecie upon a person altogether ignorant of the scriptures ; and so to powre out a spirit of grace and holinesse upon a gracelesse and prophane person , is no ground or warrant for a christian congregation to chuse either such an ignorant or prophane person for their minister or pastor . . neither is gods will , act , or example in this kind , as viz. when to shew the soveraigntie of his power over and above the powers of darknesse , and the god of this world ; he makes use of satan to give testimony unto his son jesus christ , as he did , mar. . . luk. . . and so to exercise the patience of job by afflicting him , as he did , job . such acts ( i say ) or dispensations of god as these , are no grounds for the justification of such men , who shall make use of the devill to preach the gospel , or to afflict the saints , for the exercise or improvement of their patience . therefore nothing that ever god hath done ( how oft soever he hath done it ) either by unsanctified persons , or by rude multitudes , for the propagation of his gospel , the edification of his church , &c. doth any waies countenance or warrant men , to invest either the one or the other with such a power , whereby they may endamage and make havock and spoyle both of the one and the other . the reason is plaine : because the evill spirit that said a , jesus i know , and paul i know ; yet said to the exorcists , but who are yee ? so the powers of sin and wickednesse in men , which will tremble at the voyce of god , and forget their natures and motions at his command , will laugh all the conjurements and charmings of men in the face to scorne ; and will act their own parts , and drive on their own way with what fury and violence they please , notwithstanding all charges , intercessions , and obtestations of men to the contrary . therefore no power can with reason , equitie , or conscience , be put into the hand of such persons , ( i meane persons unsanctified and rude multitudes ) or nominating whom they please ( i meane from amongst persons eligible enough by the lawes of the land either for parliamentary or synodicall interest ) to umpire in the affaires of the gospel , and to make what lawes they please for the government of the church of christ . if it be yet objected and said ; but why may not unsanctified persons and rude multitudes nominate and chuse such , who by vertue of such nomination may have power to make lawes in matters of religion , worship , government of the church , &c. though not according as they please , yet according to the word of god , and such as are agreeable thereunto ? what inconvenience is there in this ? i answer , . by way of concession ; that the grant of a power in persons so nominated and chosen to make lawes onely of incouragement and protection to the servants of god , in matters of religion and church-government , or to order some particularities in either , onely upon incouragements to those that shall obey without penall enactions against those that cannot obey , may possibly not tend or sort to much inconvenience . nor let any man think , that outward mulcts and penalties are essentiall unto laws , whether in matters of religion , worship , or in any other cases . threatning of bodily punishment ( saith learned mr. rutherford , one of the commissioners for the kingdome of scotland a is not essentiall to lawes in the generall , because some lawes are seconded onely with rewards . yet this inconvenience ( it's like ) would attend even such a power , were it granted ; those lawes which should be made in matters of religion , worship , &c. by men in authoritie , would be of like consequence amongst the generalitie of men , with the traditions of the scribes and pharisees , by which they made the commandements of god of none effect b ; i meane they would so interesse themselves in the hearts and affections of the common sort of men , that they would soone place more in the observation of them , then in keeping the commandements of god. an experiment of which inconvenience we had in folio , in the ceremoniall and superstitious injunctions of the late prelaticall power , when men thought better of themselves for standing up at the creed , joyning in gloria patri , secundum usum sarum , bowing at the name jesus , cringing before an altar , &c. then they did of others for hearing the word of god preached , with reverence and attention , or for walking in a conscientious conformitie unto it . but . if a further power shall be granted unto men so chosen ( i meane by unsanctified persons and rude multitudes , as mr. prynne calleth them ) as viz. a power of enacting lawes and statutes in matters of religion , worship , &c. under what mulcts and penalties they please , who shall judge whether these lawes and statutes be agreeable to the word of god , or no ? if they themselves , the law-makers , shall be judges , miserable is the condition of the servants of god under them like to be : because it is not to be expected , but that they will avouch whatever lawes or statutes they shall make in this kind , to be agreeable to the word of god. the popish parliaments , during the reigne of antichristianisme in the land , did no lesse . if the people , from whom obedience and subjection to such lawes is expected , shall be authorized to judge , whether these lawes be agreeable to the word of god , or no ; ( which of necessitie must be granted , otherwise obedience unto them can never be yeelded with a good conscience ) this will reflect prejudice and disparagement upon the wisdome and prudence of the law-givers , ( and consequently enervate their authoritie ) especially when any of these judges shall give sentence in oppositum , and determine a nullitie in such lawes , for want of due correspondence with the word of god. the nomothetique power or authoritie , wherever it resides , will never consult honour , interest , confirmation or strength to it self , by making such lawes , which in their very nature , frame , and constitution are matters of dispute , and which must passe and abide the tests of the judgements and consciences of the best and wisest of those that are to yeeld subjection unto them , and that with so much hazard of censure and contradiction , as lawes made in matters of religion , worship , and church-government , alwayes have been and ever will be exposed unto . the point of agreeablenesse to the word of god , in lawes and statutes about matters of religion , will be a farre longer suite and question between legislators in that kind , and conscientious subjects , then ever any chancerie suite was , or is like to be . to me it is a question , whether in this assertion ( at least understood according to the proper importance of the words ) men have power to make laws and statutes in matters of religion , worship , &c. agreeable to the word of god ; there be not contradictio in adjuncto ( as logicians speak ) . it is a very hard matter for me to conceive how any thing should be agreeable to the word of god , at least in matters of religion , worship , &c. but onely that , which for the spirit , matter and substance of it , is the word of god it self . there is no great agreeablenesse between that which is necessarie , and that which is unnecessarie ; between that which is indulgent and favourable to the saints and others in point of libertie , and that which inthrals and brings them into bondage ; between that which is of divine inspiration , and that which is of humane . now certain it is , that whatsoever is imposed upon men by the word of god , is necessarie , and of divine inspiration ; and whatsoever the word of god doth not impose upon men , it doth it in a way of a gracious libertie and indulgence unto men . and as certain it is , that whatsoever shall be imposed upon the saints or others by men , especially in matters of religion , worship , &c. which for the matter and substance of it is not the very word of god it self , is first unnecessarie , ( for otherwise we must make the word of god imperfect , and defective even in matters of necessitie , which is popery in the highest ) and secondly , it is but of humane inspiration , except we hold enthusiasme , and the revelations eccentrick to the scriptures are yet authentique and of propheticall authority : thirdly ( and lastly ) it is an abridgement of the libertie , a cancelling of that indulgence , wherewith god in his word hath gratified the world . therefore whatsoever shall be imposed by men upon men in matter of religion , worship , &c. under a pretence of an agreeablenesse to the word of god , in case it be not ( in the sense declared ) the very word of god it self , it can have no other agree thlenesse with this word , then pelop's shoulder , which ( if poets feign not ) was made of yvorie , had with the other limbs and members of his body which were all living and sound flesh . yea and whether any law or statute , can in any sense be said to be agreeable to the word of god , which shall make the saints servants and bondmen , where god in his word hath either made them , or left them free , i refer to further and more mature consideration . but . and lastly , suppose it were granted , as a thing convenient , that some should be intrusted or invested with a power of making laws and statutes in matters of religion , worship , &c. provided they be agreeable to the word of god ; yet in asmuch as the making of such laws and statutes upon such terms , necessarily requireth the most exact and profound knowledge and understanding of the scriptures ; i cannot conceive that unsanctified persons , or rude multitudes , should be authorized by god , or by any principle of sound reason , to have the nomination or election of those men ; but rather another generation , who may in reason be conceived to have a more excellent spirit of discerning of such abilities in men , then they . when men stand in need of the help and advise of a physician , lawyer , or divine , they do not addresse themselves to a company of children playing together in the market place , ( as our saviour speaks a ) to nominate or vote amongst them , what person in any of these professions they should imploy & commit their concernments unto . no more did god ever issue any commission out of heaven to unsanctified persons , rude multitudes , men ignorant of god and of the scriptures , to nominate or chuse for him , who , or what men he should imploy to make lawes and statutes for his saints and churches , in matters of religion , and which concerne his worship . a man of ordinary discretion , and that knows any thing of the nature or disposition of the fox , will never chuse a fox to be his caterer ( as our english proverb hath it ) . to his sixt and last argument , i answer , and end . . that it is not alwayes found , that those who have no skill at all in law , physicke , or architecture , have yet judgement and reason enough to make choyce of the best lawyers , physicians , architects , when they need their help . if this were true , these professions would prove malignant unto , and eat up the far greatest part of their own children and professors : there would be very few in any of them , that ever should have imployments . for who is there that would set a bungler on work , that hath judgement and reason enough to chuse a master-workman ? especially considering what our engish proverb saith ; the best , is best cheape . there is no man will ride upon an ox , that may have a well-manag'd and mettal'd gelding to carrie him . but . suppose it should be granted , as universally true , that men who have no skill at all in the said professions , yet had judgement and reason enough to make choyce of the best in every of them respectively , when they stood in need of their help ; yet this supposition must be made withall , that these best practitioners , which according to the other supposition will be chosen , have given a sufficient account & proofe , and that to publick satisfaction of their respective abilities in their severall professions . otherwise how shall they who have no skill in their professions , come to know or understand , so much as by conjecture , who are the best in them ? this being so , mr. prynnes comparison or parallel , halts right-downe . because many of those , who are by the laws of the land eligible into places of parliamentarie trust and power , yea , haply many of those who are of the best and richest accomplishment for the discharge of that part of this trust , which mr. prynne will needs suppose belongeth to them , ( i meane in making lawes in matters of religion , worship , church-government , &c. agreeable to the word of god ) never have given any publick account or proofe ( nor perhaps ever had opportunitie to doe it ) of those abilities which god hath given them in that kinde . and if so , how should the rude multitudes , or the generalitie of the people ever come to know or understand who are the best or fittest men to be chosen into those great places of trust and power ? . when men stand in need of the help either of a lawyer , physician , or architect , it is a far easier matter to know how to chuse a man in any of these professions , without running the hazard of much detriment in his occasions , then it is for men to know how to chuse men tolerably qualified for parliamentary imployment ; especially , if one part of this imployment consists in making lawes & statutes in matters of religion , worship , &c. agreeable to the word of god. the reason of the difference is plaine : recourse is made to lawyers ( and so to physicians , architects respectively ) onely for one kind of help or imployment , and that such which is proper to their profession , and wherein their abilitie and sufficiencie , is or very possibly may be sufficiently knowne ; but parliamentarie service or imployment consisting ( according to mr. prynnes notion ) as well in making church-lawes , in matters of religion , worship , & agreeable to the word of god , as in framing laws politique , to accommodate the civill affaires of the common-wealth ( which are imployments of a very differing nature , hardly incident unto , and very rarely found in one and the same person ) it must needs be conceived to be a matter of very great difficultie , and requiring a very choyce and excellent spirit of discerning , to make a commendable , yea , or a competent choice of men for that investiture and trust . yea , himself 〈◊〉 acknowledgeth little lesse then an utter inconsistencie of respective abilities in one and the same person , for these so different imployments ; for here he requires , both politicians and statesmen os fit to be consulted with a suit a church-government to the civill state , and likewise an assembly of divines , to square it by , and to the word . but in as much as whatsoever an assembly of divines shall determine in or about churh-government , or other matters of religion , cannot passe into an act , law , or statute , but by the superveening of parliamentarie interest upon their determinations and there beeing every whit as great ( if not farre greater ) abilities in divinitie and knowledge of the scriptures , requisite to enable men rightly to discerne and judge , whether a church-government , or other decision in matter of religion , be agreeable to the word of god , as there are to discourse and make out that in either kind which is agreeable thereunto ; yea and further , it being no waies either christian or reasonable , that a parliament should passe that into an act , law , or statute , as agreeable to the word of god , and obliege an whole kingdome under mulcts and penalties to submit unto it accordingly , which themselves are not able to discerne whether it be indeed agreeable unto the word of god , or no ; these three things ( i say ) duly considered , evident it is , that it is a matter almost of infinite difficultie , ( and therefore not so obvious to unsanctified persons , and rude multitudes , as mr. prynnes would carrie it ) to discerne or make choice of persons of a due temper and composition for parliamentarie operations , mr. prynnes supposition being admitted , viz. that making lawes in matters of religion , as well as in civill affaires , is a part of these operations . to set then his comparison upright , wee must state it thus : suppose mr. prynne were of none of the three professions he speaks of , neither lawyer , nor physician , nor architect , but stood in need of the help of them all , having . a suite at law of very great concernment to him ; . a dangerous distemper or disease upon his body ; . an house to build for his necessary accommodation ; and in this posture of necessities , were necessitated or limited to make choyce of three men , but all of one and the same profession , either all lawyers , or all physicians , or all architects , to minister unto him in all his respective concernments and necessities ; i beleeve that under such a constellation of circumstances and occasions as these , though he be a man of farre greater judgement and reason , then the generalitie of men are , yet he would not find it so easie a matter to satisfie himself in the choyce of his men within the compasse of any one of the three professions . this is the true state and case of the difficultie of parliamentarie elections , upon mr. prynnes supposition of parliamentarie interest and power . . suppose yet further , that unsanctified persons and rude multitudes had skill enough to elect the most eminent and ablest men for parliamentary service ; yet who knoweth not but that there is somewhat ( yea , much ) more then knowledge of what is a mans dutie , required to make him willing to doe it . to him that knoweth to doe good , and doth it not , to him it is sin ( saith james ) jam. . . it is no wayes reasonable to think , that unsanctified persons , and men addicted to sinfull lusts and pleasures , should willingly and by the ducture of their own inclinations , put a power of making lawes into the hands of such men , who they know are professed enemies to those lawlesse waies of theirs , and therefore are like , being interessed in such a power , to make lawes for the restraint and punishment of them . that god , when he pleaseth , may by an extraordinarie hand of providence , over-rule the natures and dispositions of men in this kind , and serve unfanctified persons in their parliamentary elections , as he did the syrian host of old , which he led blindfold into the midst of samaria , when they thought they had been going to dothan , is not denied ; yea , it is acknowledged , that in grace and mercy to this nation , he hath stretched out that very hand of providence we speake of in the choyce of many members of the honourable assembly of parliament ; whose perseverance in a faithfull discharge of their imployment , declares , that their election was more from god , then from men . therefore that one word of mr. prynnes which follows p. . viz. that the choyce which your vilest and most unworthy of men have made this parliament , may for ever refute this childish reason , the corner stone of your independent fabrique fastened together with independent crotchets , unable to abide the test ; this one word ( i say ) is no word either of reason or of truth . an happy election made by men over-acted by god in the action , doth no more prove either a proportionablenesse of wisdome , or a sutablenesse of affection in such persons to make such a choyce , then that praise which god hath ordained , and which he accordingly draws out of the mouths of babes and sucklings , proves these babes and sucklings to be indued with a naturall strength and abilitie of yeelding such praise unto god : or then the service which the ravens did the prophet in bringing unto him bread and flesh duly morning and evening a , proves that they had a principle of reason and understanding , to know and to consider the necessities of godly and faithfull men ; or that such men ought to renounce their estates and callings , and to depend upon ravens for their sustenance . and besides , how doth the election of so many members of this parliament , who stand by their trust with faithfulnesse and honour , more refute ; then the election of so many unworthy ones , who have not onely turned their back , but head also upon both , confirm my reason ? not to mention so many elections as have been made both in queen maries dayes , and many a time before these , of such members , who made many a law as agreeable to the word of god , as harp is to harrow . which further shews , of how slender esteeme in point of truth , that assertion of his pa. . is : where he saith , that those that are unjit or unable to be members of parliament themselves , yet have had wisdom enough in all ages , and especially at this present , to elect the must eminent and ablest men for such a service . so that if my pen were not more bashfull then mr. prynnes , it would say , that the reason defendant is by many degrees more childish then the reason plaintiffe : and that this presbyterian engins wherewith he makes account to batter my independent fabrick , are made of independent metall , able to do no execution at all . there is not one brick or tyle in all my independent fabrick , as yet bruised , crack'd or shaken , by all the hot and loud play of mr. prynnes artillery against it . but . whereas in further prosecution of this last reason , he argues thus : if the common people , which neither are , nor can be parliaments , emperours , kings , judges , magistrates , ministers , have yet a lawfull power to make others such , by their bare election , & to give them such authority and power as themselves never actually were , nor can be possessors of ; then why by the self same reason may they not likewise delegate a lawful ecclesiasticall legislative authoritie in church affairs to their elected parliamentary and synodicall members , which was never actually in themselves , as well as mr. goodwin delegate the power of determining who should be fit persons to receive the sacrament , and to become members of his independent congregation , to eight select substitutes , which was never actually vested in himself , nor transferible thus to others by any law of god , or man ? in answer ( passing by the grammatical illegality of the period ) . that mr. goodwin never delegated the power he speaks of , of determining who , &c. to any substitutes ; but this delegation was made respectively by those , who had power , ( yea haply and dutie too ) by the law of god , and power sufficient by the law of man , to referre themselves for matter of examination and triall touching their fitnesse for the sacrament , unto persons of competent abilities for such a christian service . mr. prynnes pen is ( i think ) the most unhappie and un-successefull in matters of impeachment and charge , that ever contested against the misdemeanors of men ; it seldome or never lays the indictment right . here he chargeth me with delegating such and such a power to eight substitutes ; a little after , that i have wilfully , yea and presumptuously undermined the undoubted priviledges of parliament by the very roots : a little before , that i scandalously terme the commonaltie of the land , the vilest and most unworthy of men : not long before this ( viz. pa. . ) that i preach but seldome to my parishioners : that i receive their tithes : that i gather an independent congregation to my self : that i prescribe a covenant unto them before they be admitted members of it : that i preach to these alone , neglecting my parishioners , &c. in all which suggestions and charges there is but one and the same proportion of love and truth . . whereas he supposeth that the common people , by their bare election , give such an authority and power , to parliaments , emperours , kings , &c. as themselves never actually were , nor can be possessours of ; he doth not ( i conceive ) speak like a man of his profession ; certain i am , that he doth not speak the truth ; no , nor yet the thoughts of men of learning and judgement in the point . for . ( to reason the case a little in point of truth ) if the common people were not actually possessed of that authority and power , which by their election they give to parliaments , emperours , kings , &c. i demand , how , or after what manner they were possessed of it ? for in saying , they were not actvally possessed of it , he supposes and grants , that they were some wayes or other possessed of it . no man excludes one speciall modification from a thing , but for the gratification of another . now then if the common people were not actvally possessed of that authority and power which by their election they give unto parliaments , emperours , &c. they were onely potentially possessed of it . for actually and potentially , are opposita ; yea and of that kind which they call opposita immediata . so that whatsoever is had or possessed by any , and not actually , must of necessiue be had or possessed potentially , and potentially onely ( at least in respect of an actuall possession . ) now then i reason first thus : if the people have that power though not actually , yet potentially , which by their election they give to parliaments , emperours , kings , &c. then are they capable of it even actually also ; which yet mr. prynne here plainly denies , in these words , nor can be possessours of . the consequence is undeniable : for whatsoever any entire subject hath , or is , potentiâ ; there is no impossibilitie but that it may have , or be , actu , or actually . so that mr. prynne is here upon the matter in an absolute contradiction . for he supposeth that the people may have that authoritie or power potentially , which yet he saith is unpossible they should ever have actually . again , i would willingly for the bettering of mine understanding , know and learn , how any person , or other agent whatsoever , can actually conferre that upon , or communicate that unto another , which it hath onely potentially it self . water , whilest it is actually cold , and onely potentially hot , cannot heat that which is put into it . nor can a man that is actually ignorant of such or such a truth , and potentially onely knowing it , actually communicate or impart the knowledge thereof unto another , by vertue of that potentiall knowledge which he hath . no more can a people that is onely potentially possessed of any authority or power , actually give or conferre it upon any , whether parliaments , emperours , kings , &c. the ground of all such consequences as these , is that common principle or maxime in reason : modus operandi sequitur modum essendi . things that have but a weak or imperfect being themselves , cannot give strength or perfection of being unto others . but had mr. prynne said the body of a nation have that authority really , vertually , eminently , and collectively , which they cannot have formally , distributively , and exemptively ; i should have had the lesse to say unto him . for the judgement of men learned in matters of this concernment ; he that shall please to read the discourse of christophorus besoldus , intituled , dissertatio politico-juridica de majestate in genere , &c. shall find a little jurie of lawyers joyning with him in the verdict of his judgement upon the case ; the tenor whereof is , that there is not onely an authoritie or power , but ( that which is somewhat more ) a majestie also in the people , which is coevall with the republique or common-wealth it self ; and which continues as long as the body thereof remains , yea and stands firm under all vacancies of personall empire , and all alterations and changes of government : in which respect he saith it may be called the foundation or ground-work of the common-wealth . this majestie in the people he cals , reall ; that in the king or chief ruler , personall : this he saith , still fals and expires with the death of the person invesred with it ; and returns to the people , or commonwealth . yea and adds , that the people in making or setting up a king over them , transferre onely a power of administring , not of constituting the common-wealth . with more to like effect a therefore the opinion of this man with his associates clearly is , that the people have really or actually , that authority or power which by their election they transfer upon , or derive unto their rulers and governours . . ( and lastly , for this ) whereas he affirmeth , that such a power , as he supposeth to have been delegated by me to eight substitutes , is not transcrible to others by any law of god or man ; and yet demands , why the common people may not as well delegate a lawfull ecclesiasticall legislative authoritie in church-affaires unto their elected parliamentarie and synodall members , as i delegate such a power ; i answer and confesse , that they may every whit as well ( and no whit better ) delegate such an authoritie to such their members , as i delegate such a power to my substitutes . . whereas in prosecution of his last argument , he further argues and interrogates thus ; why may not a man bring an ecclesiasticall or spirituall extraction out of a secular roote , as well as a regall , magisteriall , parliamentall , ministeriall extraction out of a meere popular or servile roote ? or the best strong waters out of the vilest lees ? the richest mineralls out of the coursest earth ? the most orient pearles , out of the basest oysters ? i answer , . that no regall , magisteriall , parliamentall , ministeriall extraction can be made out of a meere servile roote . a people meerely servile , can have no libertie or power to appoint or chuse unto themselves either kings , masters , parliaments , or ministers . therefore mr. prynnes question very truly imports , that the one extraction may ●s well be made , as the other ; but it no waies proves a possibilitie of either . . there is a plain reason , why and how a regall , magisteriall , parliamentall extraction may be made out of a popular roote : but there is a loud reclamation in reason and religion both , against a possibilitie of making a spirituall extraction out of a secular roote . regall , magisteriall , parliamentall extractions , are in their respective natures and tendencies , means proportioned to the civill and temporall ends , or good of the people ; and god having endued men , ( i meane the common sort or generalitie of men , the people ) with wisdome and understanding to accommodate and provide for themselves in such things as these , hath given them power accordingly to make use of such principles and endowments in a regular way , for the accomplishment and obtaining of such ends . now civill rule and government being a naturall , proper , and direct means , whereby a good societie or communitie of men may best obtaine a civill or politique good , viz. a safe , just , and peaceable living and conversing together in the world ; god therefore hath given them a libertie and power to contrive and cast themselves into what forme of government they should judge most conducible to such ends . upon which indulgence or grant from heaven , they have a lawfull power by consent among themselves to elect and chuse whom they please to governe them , and that upon such terms , as they conceive most agreeable to those ends . and yet even in this government it self , one communitie or corporation of men have no right or lawfulnesse of power , to chuse or appoint either government , or governors over another : least of all hath any communitie , consisting of men altogether uncivill , ignorant , and unexperienced in matters of government , any lawfulnesse of power to appoint either rule or rulers over other societies , whose members generally are of a better accomplishment , for civilitie , & parts of wisdome , learning , and understanding ; but all societies of men since the dissolution of the judaicall politie , are left free by god and nature , to set over themselves what government and governors they shall judge of best accommodation , for their temporall safety and peace . but now in spirituall things , and matters of religion , the case is farre otherwise ; differing as much from the former , as the heavens from the earth . god hath not endued the generalitie of men with spirituall wisdome and understanding , nor with the knowledge of those things which are of a supernaturall concernment unto them ; and consequently hath not invested them with any power of casting themselves into what forme of government they please in respect of these , nor of chusing whom they please to rule over them , no nor yet of appointing upon what terms they will be governed in these . the naturall man ( saith the scripture ) perceiveth not ( or , receiveth not ) the things of the spirit of god ; for they are foolishnesse unto him : neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned , cor. . . now certaine it is , that the farre greater part of men in every state politique or kingdome , are naturall men , and consequently perceive not the things of the spirit of god. many are called , ( saith our saviour ) but few chosen . and . as certaine it is , that god doth not interesse or invest any man or men , with a power of interposing in such things , which are not of their cognizance , and whereof they have no knowledge or perceivance . much lesse . hath he given a power to naturall men who perceive not the things of the spirit of god , to appoint rulers and governors in these , over men that are spirituall , and which doe perceive them . this were to give a power unto the blind , to lead not the blind onely , but even the seeing also . nay , . and lastly , god hath not given unto spirituall men themselves any power to nominate or chuse men , to make any new lawes or articles in matters of religion , worship , church-government , &c. but onely to administer , execute and teach those , which are already ordained and established by god himself , as hath been prov'd already . thus then we see there is reason enough and to spare , why such a spirituall extraction as the two brethren speak of , cannot be made out of a secular roote ; though a regall , magisteriall , parliamentall extraction , may well be made out of a popular roote . but . whereas mr. prynne supposeth that a ministeriall extraction ( as he calleth it ) is , or may be made out of a meere popular or servile roote , this supposition is not made without opposition to the truth . for no people or men , meerly such , that is , as they are simply people or men , have any power delegated unto them by god or by christ , to set a minister or pastor over them ; neither can they as meerly such , by any call , election , or ordination whatsoever , conferre a pastorall office or dignitie upon any man. the reason is , because it is an essentiall propertie or part of the pastorall office , to feed , rule , and governe a flock of christs sheep a , ( i meane a societie , or company of such persons , who in the judgement of charitie are to be reputed such ) and to administer the seales of the covenant ordinarily unto them , &c. now no company of men , meerly and simply as men , have any power to invest any man , with any authoritative power to performe either of those administrations . one company or societie of men however qualified , cannot derive any authoritative power upon any man , to performe the office of a pastor to another societie of men . therefore except that company of men , which calls and chuseth a person into the place or office of a pastor ( as it supposeth ) be such a flock of christ as was expressed , their act in so calling and chusing , is but a nullitie ; the person called hath indeed and in truth no pastorall investiture upon him by vertue of such a call . as for example ; suppose a company of ignorantly prophane , and desperately debauch'd men , should make choyce of a man of worth , to be a pastor unto them ; the man thus called and chosen , hath no authoritie or power hereby , either to feed or govern any flock of christ , ( no , not so much as any flock of christ in appearance ) or to administer the seales of the covenant unto any ; and consequently is made no pastor thereby . or if mr. prynnes meaning be , that a root meerly popular , that is , any company of people whatsoever , may lawfully call or chuse a man to preach the gospel unto them , and in this sense be said to make a minister ; i answer ; that the man thus called , is no more a minister then he was before ; nor hath he any more authoritative power to preach the gospel unto them , by vertue of such a call , then he had without it ; onely he hath thereby a greater opportunitie , and a more speciall invitation from the providence of god to preach the gospel unto those who so call him , then unto others . therefore in this case there is no ministeriall extraction made out of a meere popular roote . . whereas he speaks parables , and further demands , why not a spirituall extraction out of a secular roote , as well as the best strong waters out of the vilest lees ? the richest mineralls out of the coursest earth ? the most orient pearles out of the basest oysters ? i answer , . that i know not by what rule of true speaking , mr. prynne either calls those the basest oysters , out of which the most orient pearls , or that the coursest earth , out of which the richest mineralls , or those the vilest lees , out of which the best strong waters are extracted . that expression of the poet , — veios habitante camillo , — 〈◊〉 roma fuit , i never yet heard censured by any . noble births and inhabitants , ennoble cities and countries . and thou bethlehem in the land of juda , art not the least among the princes of juda : for out of thee shall come a governor that shall rule my people israel . by the consent of this principle , which hath testimony both from god and men , those are not the basest , but the noblest oysters , which give birth and breeding to the most ortent pearles ; nor that the coursest , but the finest and best earth , that yeelds the richest mineralls ; nor those the vilest , but the most generous and best deserving lees , which gratifie their distillator with the best strong waters . but . ( not to impose any tax upon an acyrologie ) there is this plain reason , why no spirituall extraction out of a secular roote , though all those other extractions may be made out of those respective roots appropriated unto them : because a man may very possibly find a thing where it is ; but it is unpossible for him to find it where it is not . a man may very easily and very lawfully extract five shillings out of his purse that hath five shillings , or more , in it : but he that shall undertake to make an extraction of five shillings , out of a purse that is emptie , must acheronta movere , make himself a debtor to the black art . the pearle is in the oyster , and the minerall in the earth , and the strong water in the lee : and therefore it is no great matter for art and nature joyning together , partly by allurement and invitation , partly by a stronger and more forcible hand , to sequester all these from their native and proper elements , and to draw them out of their dark and secret habitations . nor is it any waies unlawfull thus to practise upon them , because god hath not serv'd any prohibition upon men , to inhibite any such extractions or separations , either in a naturall or artificiall way . but there is no such spirituall extraction as the two brethren speak of , in their secular roote : there is no ecclesiasticall legislative power in matters of religion , worship , and church-government , neither formally , nor eminently , in unsanctified persons , rude multitudes , men ignorant of god , &c. therefore no such power can by any extraction whatsoever , proceed or be drawne out of these . there is indeed a lawfulnesse of power in them ( if they had a principle to incline them to the due exercise of it ) to assist the servants of god against violence and wrong , to incourage and countenance them in well-doing , to admonish and reprove them for doing any such evill which falls within the compasse of their cogniance ; yea , there is a lawfulnesse of power in them , if they have not given it out of their hands already , and invested others with it , to make lawes for the regulation of the saints themselves , in all their civill affaires , and to restraine them by mulcts and penalties from all such courses , actions , and practices , which are properly and in their natures disserviceable unto the common peace , and weal-publick : and all such power as this , they may lawfully devise , and demise unto persons meet for the manage and exercise of it ; because in this case they doe but give of their own ; yea , they give it in a regular and rationall way ; upon which termes god hath given unto every man a liberty or power to doe with his owne what he pleaseth a . but the persons we now speak of , never had a power of regulating the saints in their religious or spirituall affairs ; or of compelling them under temporal mulcts and penalties , to order themselves in the worship and service of god , as they pleased , or to preach and teach onely such points and doctrines amongst them , as they should think well of . therefore how they should convey or make over any such power as this unto others , by a title or conveyance good in law , i desire mr. prynne to consider . if his desire had been to have paralleld the brethrens spirituall extraction out of a secular root , with naturall comparisons or similitudes , he should have done it not with those which hee hath made use of in this kind , or the like ; for we have shewed a manifest and main disproportion in them ; but with these , and such as these which follow : why not a spirituall extraction out of a secular root , as well as a man out of a mouse , or of water out of a flint , or of the element of fire out of the midst of the sea ? he might rationally enough have argued and concluded here ; why not the one as well as the other ? but . whereas his margine demandeth , why not a spirituall extraction out of a secular root , as well as himselfe extracts many spiritual doctrines out of gamaliels secular speech ? my answer is , that hee hath made this demand at the perill of his owne reputation in what he had said but in the former page , where he supposeth , that god powred out a spirit of prophesie upon gamaliel , as hee had formerly done upon balaam and saul , if gamaliel spake as the spirit of prophesie which was poured out upon him , gave him utterance , his speech was not secular , but spirituall and divine . and . suppose there was no spirit of prophesie upon gamaliel , when he spake that speech , from which i extract my doctrines ; yet the speech it selfe , being for the matter , tenor , and substance of it , nothing but what is fully agreeable to the undoubted word of god elsewhere , ( which i clearly demonstrate in the particular doctrine handled in those sermons ) it is not to be reputed secular , though the person speaking it had been secular ; but divine , because the matter of it being a truth of divine revelation elswhere , is divine . this saying , jesus christ is the sanne of god , or the holy one of god , is not , therefore a devilish saying , because the devill spake it a , but an holy or divine saying or sentence , because the truth contained in it , which is the matter of it , is from god. but . the person speaking it was ecclesiasticall , a doctor of the law , acts . . . and lastly , it was about matters of the church , and so ecclesiasticall also . . whereas in the context of the same margine , hee calls my principall argument ( as he calls it ) drawn from the non-jurisdiction of the seven churches of asia one over another , a meer independencie , giving this for the ground or reason of this so severe an award , that these churches were under different civill dominions , and not members of the selfe-same christian republicke ; i answer , . that why he should call this my principall argument , which i doe not so much as mention , nor make any argument at all ( as least in those sermons against which his pen riseth up in this discourse with so much indignation ) i am behind hand in my understanding . i suppose he would willingly make that my principall argument , from the dint whereof he knowes how to contrive some plausible evasion and escape . it was an wholsome admonition of austin long since , a that we are very inclinable and prone , rather to seeke out how to answer or evade those things which are brought to refute our error , then to minde that which is wholsome , that so wee may bee free from error . but . if that be a reason , why the churches in asia had no jurisdiction one over another , because they were not members of the selfe-same christian republicke ; then neither had the church of jerusalem either divisim , and by it selfe , nor yet conjuncti●● with others , any power of jurisdiction over the church of antioch . for neither were their churches members of the selfe-same christian republicke , no nor yet any other churches in the apostles dayes , there being then no christian republick in the world . . neither can i well understand how the seven churches of asia should be under different civill dominions , when as one and the same man had power to command that all the world should be taxed , luke . . certain i am , that mr. pryn doth not befriend either his owne exception , or my understanding so farre , as to inform what these different civill dominions were ; or under what or whose dominion every or any of these churches did respectively consist . the consideration whereof moderately inclines me to conceive , that he put this peece of his answer to the making , and affirmed it onely de bene esse , that the seven churches of asia were under different civill dominions . is it not much more probable , that the churches of jerusalem and antioch , which yet by the assertors of presbytery , are generally and with importune confidence made confederate in classique association , were under different civill dominions ? considering , . that their cities were two hundred miles distant one from the other ( a distance greater almost by an hundred miles , then any two of the seven churches of asia stood one from the other , as will appear presently . ) and . that judea was an intire province by it self , & luke . . is said to have been under the government of pontias pilate . so that subjection under different civill dominions , is not like to have been any obstruction in the way of those asian churches , to impede their presbyteriall conjunction , had they felt the weight either of divine institution , or of any christian accommodation of their respective affaires , lying upon them for the ingaging themselves in it . . and lastly , some that seeme to have perfect knowledge of those parts where these seven churches with their respective cities stood , affirme that some of them were not situate above twelve miles distance from some others of them ; and that the greatest distance between any two of them , was not above an hundred and twenty miles , which is not the one half of the distance between many churches in this kingdom . so that had the presbyteriall combination or subordination of churches been an ordinance of god , there is little question to be made , but that these churches with their respective angels , especially under such an opportunity , would have subjected themselves unto the will of god in this behalfe , and not have remained single and uncombined in their government , as they did . if it be objected , they were times of persecution ; wee answer , so were they afterward , when ( as men of the presbyterian way suppose ) they had presbyteries ; and after that when they had episcopall government . this hath been the case of the protestants in france , where they now have , & constantly have had , a presbyterial government . so it is of the papists in england , where they have had ever since the reformation , a papall jurisdiction . and to speak to the particular , so was it a time of persecution against the presbyteriall government in queen elizabeths time , and yet it was then exercised in severall places of this kingdome . see rogers preface to his analysis of the articles of religion . . whereas he seemes to require a reprievement for his opinion , onely till independents can shew him better grounds against it , then any yet produced ; and informe him why our representative church and state should not of right enjoy and exercise as great or ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over all particular persons and churches , who are members of our church and realm , as any independent minister or congregation challenge or usurp unto themselves over their own members , &c. my answer is , . that now i trust he will willingly surrender his opinion into the hand of justice , and plead no further for it . first , because though haply there have been no better grounds produced in this discourse against it , then have been formerly in others ; yet i cannot but conceive and judge , that better arguments and grounds against it , have been here produced , then mr. prynne hath had either the happinesse or opportunity to meet with elsewhere ; especially considering partly the frequencie of his complaint , that independents have given little or no account of their way in writing ; partly that it is a thing hardly consistent with mr. pryns abilities , being sweetned with so much ingenuity , not to see and acknowledge the delinquencie of such an opinion , in whose condemnation so full a jury of the first borne principles as well of reason as religion , as hath been here impannelled , doe conspire . and secondly , because information hath been given him again and again ( and more particularly in the eighth section , page , , , , . of this discourse ) why our whole representative church and state ; ( though i doe not clearly understand what he meanes by our representative church in this place ) but why the parliament and synod should not exercise as great or greater ecclesiastical jurisdiction over particular persons & churches within the realme , &c. as an independent minister and congregation ( for his disjunctive particle , or , turnes him quite out of the way of his question ) may exercise over their owne members . but . whereas he states the question thus : whether our representative church and state , may not exercise as great or greater ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over , &c. as an independent minister or congregation challenge or usurp unto themselves over their own members ; my answer is , that doubtlesse they may ; one unrighteous or unjust thing , may be as lawfully done as another every whit as unrighteous and unjust as it . for mr. prynne may please to take knowledge , that independent ministers and congregations doe not usurp any power at all unto themselves over their own members , that is , over themselves ; but onely administer that regular and lawfull power over and amongst themselves , which every of their respective members have mutually and freely given one to another , and every particular member unto the whole body , over it selfe , and that as well for its own benefit and behoofe , as for the benefit and good of the whole body . and lawfull ( questionlesse ) it is ( yea matter of duty ) for every man to give such a power of , or over himself , unto others , which he hath sufficient ground either from the scriptures , or reason otherwise , to conceive and expect that it will bee administred for his good ; especially having ground to conceive yet further , that this act of his , in thus submitting himselfe unto others , will according to the ordinary course of providence and experience , be of christian accommodation unto others also for their good . submitting your selves one to another in the feare of god , eph. . . which submission doubtlesse ought so farre to extend , as in reason it may accommodate , or promote the edification and spirituall good , both of the persons by whom , and to whom it is made . and by the same reason it is no usurpation in those , to whom the submission is made , to administer or exercise that power which is committed unto them , according to the regular intentions of those who have given it : yea , such an administration of it as this , is so farre from being an usurpation , that a non-administration of it upon such terms , would be a very unchristian prevarication both with god and men . therefore . ( and lastly , to conclude ) whereas mr. prynne referres me to the high court of parliament , either to crave their pardon , or to undergoe their justice , for my anti-parliamentarie passages , &c. i shall request no other favour of this most honourable court , then that i may stand right and streight in their opinions , and be respited from censure onely so long , till my accuser shall make good his charge against me by sufficient evidence and proofe ; and substantially answer and refute this my apologeticall plea. when the light of this day of darknesse shall dawne upon me , i shall willingly submit unto his demand , and either crave the pardon of that honourable and high court he speaks of , or otherwise undergoe their justice : in the meane season i presume he will subscribe my petition for a reprieve , as just and equall . and if the result of his more serious thoughts shall be , to resume and prosecute the bill of endictment which he hath preferr'd against me ; my earnest request unto him is , as well for his own ease and conveniencie , as mine , . that he will not argue from pluralities , but pertinences of scriptures ; and shew how , and wherein every text alledged , according to the genuine sense and rationall dependance of the words , stands by him in what he intends to prove from it . and . that he will not place the strength and confidence of his cause , either in humane authorities , humane practises , statutes or ordinances of men , excepting onely such , whose truth , justice and equitie he shall first demonstrate either from the word of god ; and that not by texts barely cited , chapter and verse , though in never such abundance ; but throughly argued , and examined upon the matter in question ; or els from sound principles of reason and equitie , managed in a cleare and rationall way , and so drawne up to a faire compliance with the conclusion , seeking testimony and proofe from them . for otherwise , what sayings , doings , lawes or ordinances of men soever shall be produc'd or insisted upon , for confirmation or proofe of any thing ; it will be sufficient to answer , that men as wise , as just , as vertuous as they , have both said and done , things neither true nor meet to be done ; and have made lawes and statutes of no better constitution ; yea , and have been of a contrary opinion to mr. prynne in the particular questioned : which made augustine often decline that way of reasoning , as we reade in his . epistle , and elsewhere . thirdly and lastly , that he would put lesse vinegar and gall into his inke , and more wooll or cotton : or ( in the apostles words , eph. . . ) that all bitternesse and evill speaking be put away , and that we follow the truth in love , and language that becometh brethren . this treble request i make unto him with much earnestnesse and importunitie upon the supposition aforesaid , because i had much rather yeeld , might i do it upon honourable and christian terms , then to be put to take the field yet againe . as for any opinion held by me , when once i perceive that it will not make knowledge , i am ready to give the right hand of fellowship unto any man in casting it out as unsavoury salt upon the dunghill . i never yet thought my self ( nor i hope ever shall ) such a debtor unto error , as to sacrifice my time , paines , occasions , credit , conscience , upon the service of it . but unto mr. prynne i shall willingly acknowledge my self a debtor , if he will either acquit me of my crime by silence , or deliver me from my error by his pen. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e a cor. . . b cor. . . c gal. . . amos . . mat. . , , . a rom. . . b auri sacra fames . cor. . . cor. . . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . phil. . . a heb. . b rev. . notes for div a -e sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a cor. . . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. sect. . sect. . a exod. . . deut. . , . deut. . . & . . & . . & . . joih . . . & . . . b exod. . . & . deut. . . & . . josh . . , , , . c exod. . . & . , , deut. . , , , & . . & . . . & . . & . . & . , . & . , . sect. . sect. . sect. . a mat. . . dan. . sect. . tim. . . sect. . sect. . sect. . a gal. . . a where he chargeth mee to have presumptuously undermined the undoubted privileges of parliament , with i know not how many more anti-parliamentary passages diametrally contrary to my nationall vow and coveuant , &c. sect. . sect. . sect. . jam. . a page . b page . . c page . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . b rev. . . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a mr jacob affirmeth , that for the space of . or . yeeres after christ , every visible church had power to exercise ecclesiasticall government , and all other gods spirituall ordinances ( the means of salvation ) in and for it self , immediatly from christ . sions prerogative , p. , . a mar. . . a mr. prynne . full replies . p . b m. edwards antapol . p. . a twiss de scientia med . b ego ( inquit fons●ca ) in academia con●mbricensi , hoc primus observavi . imo potius ego ( clamat molina ) apud , eborenses meos . his non cedit leonardus lessius lovaniensis , & suo cer●bello , de codem partu ambitiosè gratulatur . prid. lect. . de scient . med . a see sions prerogdtive , almost throughout . a the civill magistrate arrogates not to himself any directive power in matters of religion . a. s. in his observ . & annot. p. . and againe , p. . to grant them such a power ( viz. of judging questions in debate between the two parties in the assembly , speaking of the parliament ) were nothing else but to joyne your selves with the arminians , &c. a act. . . sect. . a many godly and learned ministers — even such as are their good friends , & tēder enough of them , &c p. . their friends & familiars , p. . that all the godly ministers of citie and countrey should carrie themselvs towards you w th love , respect , fairness , brotherly kindnes &c. et max : the ministers courted them by all waies of respect & oft high entertainment of them inloving speech , friendly coūtenance , familiar cōver sing , &c. p. b i love their persons & value them as brethren , yea , some of them above brethren , and besides that love i bear to them as saints , i have a personall love , and a particular love of friendship to some of them , &c. epist . p. . sect. . sect. . a gravis enim est , & periculosus error in plurimis : & multorum lapsus , etiamsi se intelligat , exurgend pudore , authoritatem sibi praesumit , ex numero habens hoc impudentiae , ut quod errat , intelligentiā esse veritatis asserat , dùm minus error is esse existimatur in multu . hil. l. . a cum turpis est medicina , sanari pudeat . sect. . a postr●mò nō satis cā dide fac●ūt , ●ū invid . ose cōmemorāt , quātas turbas , tumultus , contentiones secū traxer●t nostrae doctrinae praedicatio , et quos nunc in multis fructꝰ crat . nā horū malorum culpa indignè in ipsa derivatur , quae in satanae militiā torquer● debuerat . et mox : haec certissima et inprim●● fidelis no tanquâ dis●●nt tursverbū à vi nū ) à medacibꝰ dactrinis , quae sefacile prodūt dum aequis on●niū auribꝰ recipiuntur , & à mūdo plaudēte aud●untur . b lutherus velu●● molum eridis misit in mūdum , cujus nuliam omninò partè non turba●ā video . erasm . l. . ep . . c pios hoc nomen & titulum in mundo oportet gerere , quòd seditiosiac schismatici ac infinitorū malorū authores sunt luth. in gal. . d hab. . . with heb. . , . * mat. ● . , sect. . * act. . . a the new england catechisme , called the government of the church , compos'd by mr. cotton , and thrice printed . a guide unto sion . another small treatise , butful of learning , reading and strength , called , sions prerogative royall . the answer of the elders of the severall churches of new england to questions , sent &c. another answer of the same elders to . other questions about church government . mr. thompson and mr. mathors answer to mr. charles herles independencie . mr. tho. welds answer to mr. w. rathbone ; besides many other treatises published upon this subject . sect. . sect. . a rom . , , . sect. . b tim . . , . tim. . . &c. a it is not safe for any to receive matters of religion without terious examination . — who ever be the church , the authoritie of it , is not sufficient ; possibly the church may one and therefore we must flee to the throne of jesus christ the head of the church for satisfaction . whom shall we rather beleeve concerning god , then god himself ? if there were a councell of the most learned doctors that ever the world had , yea , if an assembly of angels yet in matters of religion , concerning the good way , the last resolution must be into thus saith the lord. mr. th. h●ll ( an high-resolved presbyterian ) in a sermon , staled the good old way , gods way , &c. ) preached before the l. maior , &c. apr. . ● . pa. , . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a act. . . a due right of presbyteries part . . pag. . b mat. . . a luk. . . sect. . sect. . king. . . a king. . . sect. . a eaque ( majestas ) 〈…〉 quae in constanendâ ) & personalem , ( quae in administrandâ seu gubernandâ republicâ consistit ) dividi videtur . et meat majestas realis seu imper● , republicae est coaeva ; quamdiu corpus ejus durat , per manet : & etiam sub inter regnis & alterationibus persistit : quam ideò fundamentum republicae possu●● are . personalis conci●● cum personâ , & ad rempublicam redit . hujus majestatis 〈…〉 etiam post 〈◊〉 legem , populum romanum aliquam retinuesse dicitur majestatem . § . 〈…〉 c. l. . § 〈…〉 maj statem nostram . f. de captiv . & postium . l. . 〈…〉 majestatem publica ad l. iuliā majest . lex namque regia de personalis 〈…〉 is translatione intell g●debet : ego in tract . de monarchia cap. . num . ac 〈…〉 per eam populus potestatem administrationis , non constitutionis . et constat ex l. § . 〈…〉 administrationem re publicae , non aliqu●d ultrà , imperatori datum esse . christoph . 〈…〉 dess●● politico - 〈◊〉 de majestate , &c. sect. . p. . sect. . a act. . . pet. . . sect. . mat. . . a mat. . . a mark. . . luke . . a procliviores sumus quaerere potiùs , quid contra ea respondeamus , — quae nostro objiciuntur errori , quàm intendere ea quae sunt salubria , ut careamus errore . sect. . anti-cavalierisme, or, truth pleading as well the necessity, as the lawfulness of this present vvar, for the suppressing of that butcherly brood of cavaliering incendiaries, who are now hammering england, to make an ireland of it: wherein all the materiall objections against the lawfulness of this undertaking, are fully cleered and answered, and all men that either love god, themselves, or good men, exhorted to contribute all manner of assistance hereunto. by jo: goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) anti-cavalierisme, or, truth pleading as well the necessity, as the lawfulness of this present vvar, for the suppressing of that butcherly brood of cavaliering incendiaries, who are now hammering england, to make an ireland of it: wherein all the materiall objections against the lawfulness of this undertaking, are fully cleered and answered, and all men that either love god, themselves, or good men, exhorted to contribute all manner of assistance hereunto. by jo: goodwin. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by g.b. and r.w. for henry overton, at his shop at popes-head-alley, london : [ ] date of publication from wing. annotation on thomason copy: "oct: ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng great britain -- history -- civil war, - -- early works to . great britain -- politics and government -- - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no anti-cavalierisme, or, truth pleading as well the necessity, as the lawfulness of this present vvar,: for the suppressing of that butcherly goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion anti-cavalierisme , or , truth pleading as well the necessity , as the lawfulness of this present vvar , for the suppressing of that butcherly brood of cavaliering incendiaries , who are now hammering england , to make an ireland of it : wherein all the materiall objections against the lawfulness of this undertaking , are fully cleered and answered , and all men that either love god , themselves , or good men , exhorted to contribute all manner of assistance hereunto . by jo : goodwin . be not afraid of them : remember the great lord and fearefull , and fight for your brethren , your sons , and your daughters , your wives , and your houses . nehem. . . all that take the sword , shall perish with the sword . mat. . . det rex legi , quod lex regi , .i. imperium ac potestatem . london printed by g. b. and r. w. for henry overton , at his shop in popes-head-alley . anti-cavalierisme , or , truth pleading as well the lawfulnesse , as the necessity of this present vvar. that which some in the gospell spake in great amazement , by way of glorifying god , upon occasion of an unexpected breaking out of his goodnesse and power , in a miraculous cure , it was never seene after such a fashion ( mar. . . ) may now be uttered by the inhabitants of this kingdome , with astonishment , to the everlasting shame and infamy of men ; upon occasion of the late breaking out of that fire of rage and cruelty , which yet burneth in the midst of the bowels of it , and threatens to consume the very foundations thereof , except it be seasonably quenched by a gracious raine from on high . and as all that saw that inhumane butchering and quartering out into pieces of the levites wife by her owne husband , cryed out , and said , there was no such thing done or seen , since the time that the children of israel came up out of the land of aegypt , untill that day , judg. . . so doubtlesse whosoever shall consider what bloody and horrid intendments and attempts against this nation , have passed the hearts and hands of some of her own children , may truly say , there hath no such thing been done or seen in the land , since god first caused men to dwell on the face of it ▪ what shall we think of that legion of devils ( i had almost called them ) who now possesse the land , and after the manner of devils indeed , seek all to rent and teare it in pieces ; i meane that colluvies , that heap , or gathering together of the scum , and drosse , and garbage of the land , that most accursed confederacy , made up of gebal , and ammon , and amaleck , philistims with the inhabitants of tyre , of jesuits and papists , and atheists , of stigmaticall and infamous persons in all kindes , with that bloody and butcherly generation , commonly knowne by the name of cavaliers ? have they not thorough some black art or other gotten the chiefe treasure of the land , the king , into their possession , setting him still in the front of all their desperate designes ; which are these , and their fellowes : . to pull those stars out of the firmament of the land , to dissolve and ruine that assembly ▪ which is by interpretation , or representation ( which you will ) the whole nation . . when they have opened this doore of hope unto themselves , to turn the lawes , and present frame of government upside downe . . to make havock and desolation , to roote out the generation of the saints rush and branch , men and women , young and old fearing god , out of the land . . to make rapine and spoile of all the goods and possessions , at least of all those that withstand them , and are not brethren in iniquity with them . . to build up the walls of jericho , to put lucifer againe into heaven , i meane , to advance the tyrannicall thrones of the hierarchie to their former heighth , or higher , if they know how . . by their authority and power to excommunicate and cast out all the pure and precious ordinances of god out of his house , and to supply this defect with antichristian , and spurious institutions . . to spread that veile , or covering of antichristian darknesse again over the face of the land , which god by a most gracious hand of providence had rent and taken off many yeares since ; to leaven the whole lump of the land , the second time , with the soure leaven of romish error and superstition . . and lastly , as is much to be feared , when they have served their tūrnes with , and upon the king , and used him as an engine to get all the stones together for their building , then to make rubbidge of him , as if they had honoured him sufficiently , to cause such sacred designes as these to passe thorough his hands , and made him instrumentall , or any wayes accessory in such angelicall atchievements . doe we thinke that the light of the knowledge of god shines in the hearts and consciences of these men ? have these men the minde of christ amongst them ? doe they know who is the lord ? or doe they not thinke rather , that baal , or belial is he ? have all the workers of iniquity ( saith david ) no knowledge ▪ that they eat up my people as they eat bread ? psal. . . i. e. that they injure , vex , and consume them with no more remorse , regret , or touch of conscience , then they eat and drinke to preserve their naturall lives : as if such men as these , the people of god , were made for the same end and purpose to them that bread is , viz. to be eaten up and devoured by them . have they no knowledge ( saith the prophet ) that they dare attempt such a thing as this ? implying ( as it should seeme ) that to vex , molest , persecute , and destroy the people of god , argues the most profound ignorance , and thickest darknesse in the mindes and understandings of men , that can likely be found there ; and that the weakest impressions or glimmerings of any true light of knowledge , would keep men from dashing their foot against this stone howsoever . if men had but as much knowledge of god , as pilates wife had in a dreame , they would take heed of having any thing to doe with just men . and these things ( saith our saviour to his disciples concerning those that should kill them , and thinke they did god service therein ) these things ( saith he ) they shall doe unto you , because they have not known the father , nor me , john . . if men had the least degree of the true knowledge of god in christ , they must needs have some knowledge of his people and children also : and if they know these , this knowledge would be as a hooke in their nose , or a bridle in their lips , to keep them from falling foule upon them , as the knowledge of christ the lord of glory , would have kept the princes of this world from crucifying him , had it been in them . and since we are fallen upon the mention of those men who are ready in a posture of hatred , and malice , and revenge , with other preparations answerable hereunto , to fall upon us , and our lives and liberties , both spirituall and civill , upon our estates , our gospell and religion , and all that is , or ought to be deare and precious unto us ; and in our miseries and ruines , to render our posterities more miserable then we , and have advanced their designe this way to that maturity and heighth , which we all know and tremble to think of : give me leave in that which remaines , to excite and stir you up , from the greatest to the least , both young and old , rich and poore , men and women , to quit your selves like men , yea , and ( if it be possible ) above the line of men , in this great exigency and stresse of imminent danger that hangs over your heads , and threatens you every houre , oh let it be as abomination unto us , as the very shadow of death , to every man , woman , and child of us , not to be active , not to lie out and straine our selves to the utmost of our strength and power in every kinde , as far as the law of god and nature will suffer us , to resist that high hand of iniquity and blood that is stretched out against us ; to make our lives , and our liberties , and our religion good against that accursed generation that now magnifieth themselves , to make a prey and spoyle of them , to make havock and desolation of them all at once , if the lord shall yet please to deliver us out of their hands . let not our lives , our liberties , our estates , be at all precious or deare unto us in this behalfe , to expose them , be it unto the greatest danger , to prevent the certaine and most unquestionable ruine of them otherwise : let us resolve to put all into the hands of god , to prevent the falling of all , or any thing , into the hands of these men . there is neither man nor woman of us , neither young nor old , but hath somewhat or other , more or lesse , a mite or two at least to cast into the treasury of the publike safety . men that have strength of body for the war , and fingers that know how to fight , let them to the battell , and not feare to look the enemy in the face . men and women that have only purses and estates , let them turne them into men and swords for the battell . men that have heads , but want armes and hands for outward execution , let these study and contrive methods and wayes of proceedings : head-worke is every whit as necessary in such a time and exigent , as hand-work is . they that have neither hands , nor heads , nor estates , let them finde hearts to keep the mountain of god , to pray the enemies downe , and the armies of the lord up : let them finde tongues to whet up the courage and resolutions of others . this is a service wherein women also may quit themselves like men , whose prayers commonly are as masculine , and doe as great and severe execution , as the prayers of men . as for little children that know not the right hand from the left , and so are uncapable of exhortation , or putting on this way , by their weaknesse and innocency ( innocency i meane , as concerning the enemies , and giving them the least cause or colour of their bloody intendments , as likewise in respect of the crying sins , and horrid provocations of other men ) they doe every whit as much towards the furtherance of the service , as men doe by their strength , by their wisdome , by their estates , or otherwise ; as we see in the case of gods sparing niniveh . the sixscore thousand children that knew not their right hand from the left , were the great intercessors , and chiefe mediators in the behalfe of the city with him . yea , the bruit beasts themselves ▪ the cattell , their case and condition working upon the goodnesse and graciousnesse of god , were contributors too in their nature towards this service : as is to be seen in the last clause of the place cited from the prophet jonah . and should not i spare niniveh ▪ &c. — and also much cattell . therefore now i beseech you that are capable of the great evils and dangers that threaten you , and are even at your doore , be not you wanting and backward in any thing that is in your hand to doe , if it be possible , and as far as in you lyeth , redeeme your lives with your lives , your estates with your estates , your religion with your religion , out of the hands of those men , set them all to work for their own maintenance and preservation : yea , if you know how to create more strength then you have , or to improve your selves seventy times seven fold above the proportion of any your present abilities , i beseech you doe it ; at least be willing ( as the apostle beares the corinthians witnesse they were , in a case not altogether unlike ) above that you are able , that so you may be sure to give out your selves to the utmost of your ability , the more freely . give me leave to set an edge upon you , to quicken and encourage you , to strengthen your hand to the worke , by the tender only of two motives , or considerations unto you . . consider that the cause , wherein you are desired and exhorted to appeare , and to engage your selves to the utmost , is like unto the law of god it selfe in those excellent qualifications of it : it is just , and holy , and good : there is nothing in it that should make you ashamed either before god , or justly-judging men , nothing that needs make you tender , or holding off in point of conscience . you are to stand up in the defence of your lives , your liberties , your estates , your houses , your wives , your children , your brethren , and that not of this nation only , but of those two other nations likewise united under the same government with this , in the defence of those religious and faithfull governours , that honourable assembly of parliament , whose power and priviledges you stand bound by your solemn vow and protestation unto god , ( besides many bands of conscience otherwise ) to defend and maintaine with your lives , power , and estates . yea , in defence of his majesties royall person , honour , and estate ; all which are now in eminent danger to suffer by that accursed retinue of vile persons that are gathered about him , as ivie about an oake , which never suffers it to thrive or prosper , till it be torne off from it . this , men that have their eyes open , may easily see and discerne ; though others make a mock and a scorn of such an assertion , as ridiculous : but so did lots sons in sodome , by that saying of his unto them , that the lord would destroy the place and city where they were , gen. . . which yet was a serious and solemne truth : yea , and further , you are exhorted to stand up in defence of the true protestant religion ▪ for the name and honour of your god , your ordinances , and ( which ought to be of very deare and precious consideration to you ) for the safe conveyance of that great treasure of the gospel over unto your posterities that are yet unborne . here is nothing in all this but what the manifest law of god , and the common light of nature , not only warranteth and alloweth in all men ▪ but even leadeth , perswadeth , yea , urgeth and presseth them unto . now how should not the goodnesse , equity , and righteousnesse of the cause be as precious seed , out of which a generation of sons and daughters shall be raised up unto it ? yea , and be spirit and life to the undertakers thereof ? and encouragement unto them , to plead it with the highest hand of meanes and endeavours they are able to lift up ? when there is a cause that hath the image and superscription of god upon it ▪ so full and lively as this hath , is it not pitty it should want orators to plead it , that it should suffer and fall to the ground , and none be found to take it up ? indeede if there were any occasion to make a stand in matter of conscience , if there were any thing doubtfull in the cause recommended to you , any thing to detaine your judgements and consciences in suspence , whether it were lawfull for you or no , to appeare in it , there were just cause to spare and to forbeare you , at least for a time , till you should be fully satisfied . but now the righteousnesse hereof being as cleare as the light , or as the sunne at noone day , why tarry you ? why are you not up in your might before this , to maintaine it to the uttermost ? yea , but say the rabbies and great disputers that stand by your enemies and strengthen their hand that they can not depart from their wickednesse , that cover , but it is with the covering of the flesh , and of the spirit of the world , not with the covering of the spirit of the lord : it is not lawfull ( say these men ) for you to oppose them , nor to contend any wayes by force against them , because by opposing them , you resist the king the lords anointed , whom god commands should be obeyed and submitted unto . if you conceive him to be your adversary , yet you ought to oppose him , ( or rather that adverse disposition of his against you ) onely with prayers and teares , and supplications unto god for him , and with petitorie and humble addresments unto himselfe , but to make no outward resistance at all . to this i answer , . by way of concession , that the king is to be obeyed , and that by the expresse commandement of god . submit your selves to every ordinance of man for the lords sake , whether it be unto the king , as supreme , or unto governors , as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evill doers , &c. pet. . here is submission to the king required in expresse termes , and they that yeeld not the submission here required , resist the ordinance of god ( as the apostle paul speakes , rom. . ) and by such resistance shall receive to themselves ( viz. without repentance ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} judgement , or condemnation : god will severely judge or punish them for this resistance . and for my part , i from my soule could wish and desire that the sad distractions and cont●stations betweene the two opposing parties in the land , might come to a comprimise , and be issued and ended upon this point : that party that makes most conscience of keeping that commandement of god which requires submission and obedience unto kings , to be submitted unto by the other ; and that to yeeld , and sit downe , which is most defective this way , and in whom lesse conscience of such obedience appeareth . only two things i desire may be taken notice of from this scripture where submission to kings is commanded : first , that a king or kingly government , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} an ordinance of man , or an humane creation ( as the originall properly signifieth ) which yet we know is no lesse generally then impudently , and in the face of expresse scripture to the contrary , denyed by the divinity and learning of the malignant faction , who by swelling the prerogative of kings to a monstrous and most unnaturall proportion , as if they had a minde to make it crack before they had done , have consulted all maner of miseries and calamities to the world , as well to kings themselves , as to their people . submit to every ordinance of man ( saith peter ) for the lords sake , whether it be unto the king , &c. therefore he supposeth the king or kingly government to be the ordinance , or creation , or creature of man ▪ and it is evident that so he is ; for there were kings over the heathen nations , with the forme of whose government god did no wayes intermeddle by way of any command or appointment concerning it , long before there was any king over * israel . nor was it the order or command of god , that there should be any king over israel , but he was highly offended with the people for desiring it . is it not now wheat harvest ? ( saith samuel to the people ) i will call upon the lord , and he shall send thunder , and raine , that you may perceive and see , how that your wickednesse is great , which ye have done in the sight of the lord in asking you a king . and though he condescended in a passive way , that they should have a king as they desired , yet as he tells them by the prophet hosea , he gave them a king in his wrath , and bid them in effect take him at their perils , if they would needs have him , he should deale but hardly by them . he would take their sons and daughters , and make them servile to him , as you have it . sam. . . it is true , in this sense a king , or kingly power and government may be said to be from god . . in a generall or indefinite consideration , as it is a government , not simply , or in it selfe unlawfull : for it is the will and appointment of god , that there should be some government or other in every society of men , yet not any government neither , not any that is unjust , unreasonable , or tyrannicall : and in this sense all formes of government that are lawfull and just , whether they be simple , as the three commonly known by the names of monarchy , aristocracy , democracy ; or whether they be mixt , having somewhat of two , or all of these simples in them , are equally and indifferently from god : not any one of them determinately , or with exclusion of the rest . for suppose all nations and societies of men in the world , from the foundations thereof untill now , should have set up and exercised only one and the same form of government amongst them , as viz. that which we call aristocraticall ( like that in the low-countries , by some chosen amongst them , whom they call states ) so that neither the monarchicall , or kingly government , nor yet the democraticall , nor any other government whatsoever had been ever practised in the world untill this day , we must not thinke that the world had herein sinned , in not using any other , no nor yet neglected any ordinance of god . because it is no ordinance or appointment of god that any particular nation or society of men , should have either this or that speciall forme of government amongst them , but only that they should have some kinde of government which is just and lawfull . therefore kingly government is no ordinance of god in this sense , viz. as imposed upon any nation or people by way of duty or precept to use and set up amongst them . but being set up in any people , it is warranted , and countenanced by god as lawfull , and obedience & subjection streightly enioyned thereunto . and therefore the apostles expression , rom. . . is very expresse and punctuall this way . let every soule be subject unto the higher powers , for there is no power ( .i. no iust and lawfull form of government ) but is from god , the powers that are , are ordained ( or rather ordered {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) of god . the powers that are : why doth he say the powers that are , are ordained , or ordered by god ? doubtlesse to shew , that there are some powers or formes of government , in actu signato , ( as the school-men speak ) that is , in respect of their species or kinde , which are not in actu exercito , actually exercised or taken up , nor need they be taken up by any state or people in the world . but for those that are , .i. that are de facto established , and set up by any people among themselves , ( speaking only of those that are lawfull ) these ( saith he ) are ordained , or rather ordered by god : .i. god by speciall instinct and work of providence ( q ) inclines the hearts of severall nations , some to imbrace and fall upon one , and some upon another , some upon that which is monarchicall , or kingly , others upon that which is aristocraticall , some upon that which is democraticall , &c. and withall commands , that that which every nation or people chooseth for it selfe , should be obeyed and submitted unto by those that have chosen it , and live under it , so long as it continueth : for the time is comming , when christ will put downe all rule , and all authority , and power . and this is another sense wherein kings or kingly government may be said to be from god , or to be the ordinance of god , viz. because where it is established and set up , he had a speciall hand in ordering and guiding the hearts of the people to choose it , before others , and withall commands it to be obeyed , as a government that is lawfull and authorized by him , not as commanded and enioyned by him . thus you have the first thing made plaine to you , which was observed from the place in peter , which was , that kingly power or authority is directly and properly the creation or ordinance of man , though there bee that in it also , which in a sense may give it the denomination of an ordinance of god ; viz. . as warranted or countenanced by him . . as ordered and taken up by those nations , who have subjected themselves unto it , by the speciall disposall and work of his providence . the second thing i desire you would take notice of from the same scripture , is this , that subordinate authority , and inferiour magistracy and power is as much the ordinance of god , as soveraignty and supreame authority it selfe is : and that god by one and the same command , requires us to submit our selves to inferiour magistrates or governours , as well as hee doth to kings themselves . reade the passage againe . therefore submit your selves to all manner of ordinances of man , whether , &c. so that it is a sin of the same nature , and renders a man obnoxious to the same danger or displeasure from god , to be found in disobedience to subordinate rulers under the king , as to the king himselfe ▪ but this for answer to the objection in the first place , by way of concession or grant , that the king doubtlesse is to be obeyed . but secondly by way of exception i answer further , that though the king be to be obeyed and submitted unto , yet this obedience was never intended by god to be universall , but with limitatation , viz. in such commands wherein a mans obedience to the king should not be found disobedience against god : for in these cases , that of the apostles peter and john to the rulers ▪ elders , and chiefe priests , must take place . acts . . whether it be right in the sight of god to obey you , rather then god , judge yee . the debt of obedience to god must alwayes be paid , whosoever looseth by the hand : though the truth is , that there is no creature , king nor other , that can lose any thing due to him , by any mans obedience unto god . the apostles were so confident of the righteousnesse of their cause in disobeying their rulers in that , wherein they obeyed god , that they feared not to make their adversaries themselves their judges therein : judge yee . if a king should command me not to pray for the generall good , or peace of the church or state where i live , or to forbeare the doing of any thing , which i conceive i am bound in conscience unto god to doe for the publique good , i am not in this case any whit more bound to obey the kings command , then the apostle peter and john were to obey the command of the rulers and elders who charged them to give over preaching the gospell , or then shadrack , meshach , and abednego were , to worship the golden image , because nebuchadnezzar commanded it . this limitation is plainly enough expressed in that very scripture , wherein we heard obedience unto kings commanded . pet. . . submit your selves ( saith the apostle ) to every ordinance of man , for the lords sake . if we ought to submit for the lords sake : .i. either for that love we beare to him , or out of conscience of that obedience which we owe unto him , we ought not to submit in any thing whereby god may be dishonoured or disobeyed . it is senselesse to thinke , that any thing can , or ought to be done for the lords sake , which cannot be done but to his dishonour , or ( which is the same ) with disobedience to him . yea , but it will still be objected , though it be true , that kings are not to be obeyed in any of those commands that are unlawfull , in an active way , we are not alwayes to doe what they would have us doe , nor to cease or forbeare the doing , of what they would have us forbeare ; yet are they even in such cases to be obeyed passively : men are to suffer patiently any punishment they desire to inflict upon them , for refusing any such obedience ; or however , they are not forcibly to resist . to these things likewise i answer : . that the unlawfull command of a king , may possibly be of that nature and condition , that a subject cannot disobey it , but by a strong hand , and taking up of armes , though not properly or directly against the king , yet against the command of a king . in such a case , disobedience to kings by a strong hand , and with forcible resistance , is not only lawfull , but even matter of duty and obedience unto god . for instance , a christian hath solemnly vowed and protested before god , to defend the lives of his godly and faithfull governours to the utmost of his power : or whether he hath made such a vow and protestation or no , it is not much materiall in this respect , because he stands bound in conscience otherwise , and by the law of god , to doe it . now suppose such a man cannot performe this vow , or doe that which is his duty to do otherwise therein , but by a strong hand , and taking up armes ; in this case , if a king commands such a man not to take up armes in relation to such a defence , it is evident that this unlawfull command of a king cannot be disobeyed , but by taking up armes against it . there are many other cases of the same consideration and rule with this . . i answer further , that it is one thing to offer violence to the person of a king , or ruler , or to attempt the taking away of his life ; another to secure a mans own life , or the life of another , whom we know to be innocent , and much more the publike safety , by strengthening a mans selfe to withstand the violent execution of any unjust command from a king , by those that have no right or lawfull authority at all , to doe any such execution upon us . as for offering violence to the person of a king , or attempting to take away his life , we leave the proofe of the lawfulnesse of this , to those profound disputers the jesuits , who stand ingaged by the tenour of their professed doctrine and practise , either to make good the lawfulnesse thereof , or else to leave themselves and their religion , an abhorring and hissing unto the world . as for us who never travelled with any desires or thoughts that way , but abhor both mother and daughter , doctrine and practise together , we conceive it to be a just prerogative of the persons of kings in what case soever , to be secure from the violence of men ; and their lives to be as consecrated corne , meet to be reaped and gathered only by the hand of god himselfe . davids conscience smote him , when he came but so neare the life of a king , as the cutting off of the lap of his garment . but as concerning a forcible withstanding , or resistance making , against a violent execution of any unjust command from a king , attempted by those that have no rightfull or lawfull authority to do such execution either upon us or others , yea though the king himselfe be at hand to second his instruments in the execution of such commands , we have sufficient warrant for the lawfulnesse hereof in the scriptures themselves . when ahab sent a cavaliere ( you may call him ) a man of blood , to take away the prophet elisha's head , as he sate in his house amongst the elders , king. . . did elisha set open his doore for him , and sit still till he took off his head , in obedience to the king ? no , he bestirred himselfe for the safeguard of his life , and called upon others to stand by him , and assist him against that outrage and violence intended against him : yea and this without any brand or blemish of any rebellion or disobedience to the king ; yea though he spake somewhat roundly and freely of the king himselfe . see yee not ( saith he to the elders that were with him ) how this son of a murtherer ( meaning no beggars , no lesse then ahab himself , the king ) hath sent to take away mine head ? take heed when the messenger commeth , and shut the doore , and handle him roughly * at the doore : is not the sound of his masters feet behinde him ? surely he that went thus far , for the safety of his life , when he was but in danger of being assaulted , would have gone further if occasion or necessity had been ; and in case the kings butcher had got in to him before the doore had been shut , if he had been able , and had had no other meanes to have saved his owne head , but by taking away the others , there is little question to be made , but he would rather have taken , then given a head , in this case . so when saul the king would needs have had jonathan put to death , yea , and had bound himselfe with an oath or curse to h●ve it so ( yea and that twice over for failing ) the people knowing that jonathan had committed nothing worthy of death ( though the king thought he had ) but that contrarily , he had deserved well of the state , and had mightily delivered israel , ( as the words of the text are ) delivered him by a strong hand out of the hand of saul . sam. . . neither is there the least aspersion or imputation cast upon this people for this fact of theirs , as if they had beene any wayes injurious or disobedient to their king . nay it appeares by the sequell of the story . that saul himselfe , though a man not of the best disposition , when the turbidum intervallum , the fit of passion was over , took it no wayes amisse at the hands of the people , that they had resisted him , in that unreasonable and inconsiderate designe of his against jonathan : but went on , and raigned peaceably over them . david in like manner , being unjustly persecuted by saul , and those gracelesse and base flatterers that assisted him in that ungracious designe , and being in danger of his life by them , did hee either sit still , to see whether god would in an extraordinary and miraculous way protect him or no ? or did he submit himselfe to sauls mercy , and lay downe his life at his feet ? no , but on the contrary , he provided himself with weapons , the best that were to be had . sam. . . and willingly entertained for the safeguard of life , and to make resistance against saul and his party , all the help of men he could come by , making himselfe an head or captaine over them . sam. . . and yet all this while david was but one single man , and that of a private and mean condition in comparison . and this ( my brethren ) is the very case that is now before you , or if there be any difference in respect of a justifiablenesse in the one above the other , all the advantage which certainly is very much , lies on your side ; your scale is much the better weight . the●e are sons of belial that are risen up against you , full of a spirit of hatred and revenge against you ▪ who partly in plaine words , and without parables ▪ partly by their insolent carriages and behaviours towards others of the same spirit and cause with you , threaten you with the utmost insolencies they can execute upon you , and ( in effect ) to stretch the line of miserable and wofull ireland over you and your city , and whole nation . these either have , or pre●end to have a warrant or commission from the king to doe what they doe , to make prey and spoile of you , your lives , and liberties , and all that you have ; just as the messenger had from ahab , that was sent to take away the prophets head ( as you heard ) or as those had from saul , that went to lay hold of jonathan to put him to death . now then the question is , whether it be lawfull for you to stand upon your guard in this case , and to seeke the preservation of your lives , and of those that belong unto you , wives , and little ones , &c. and if there be no other likely meanes for your safety , to destroy the lives of those that seek to destroy yours ; whether the command of the king ( suppose such a thing were , which yet i much question ) to wicked instruments to take away your lives , or the lives of those whom you are bound , by oath or otherwise to protect ; whether ( i say ) such a command ought more to prevaile with you to sit still and suffer the destroyer to execute his commission upon you , to take away your lives , or the command of god and nature which lies upon you to defend your lives , and the lives of such others , as we spake of , when they are assaulted , or in danger of assault ? this fairely and unpartially is the state of the present question . the great prophet elisha ( as we heard ) and the people of israel under saul , and the man according to gods own heart , resolved the question clearly enough by their practise . if it be here objected and said , it is true , such acts as you have related were indeed done by these men : but , quo jure , whether they did well , or lawfully in so doing , is yet in question : an act done by a good man , fearing god , is not therefore good , or lawfully done , because such a man doth it : the ancient fathers were generally polygamists : yet the plenty of their practise is but a defective proofe of the lawfulnesse of polygamy . in like manner , the actions mentioned , having no testimony of approbation from the scriptures , may very possibly be workes of darknesse , though done by children of light ; yea , though there be no expresse brand of unlawfulnesse set upon them by god : for polygamy it selfe hath this negative testimony of its innocency . to this i answer , first in generall : that though the goodnesse and holinesse of the person be not sufficient to authorize an act for lawfull , yet whilst the unlawfulnesse of it be clearly evicted by a contrariety in it to some command of god , it is a strong presumption , that an act performed by such a person , is lawfull : to the instance of polygamy in the fathers : i answer , that it was apparently a breach of the seventh commandement , and contrary to the first institution of marriage by god ; the tenour whereof , according to our saviours own extract out of the ancient record , runs thus , mat. . . and they twaine ( not they three , or they foure , or more ) shall be one fl●sh . and besides , it is plainly branded and condemned by the spirit of god , as sinfull , mal. . ▪ . as the generall vote of interpreters upon this place carryeth it . but there is not the least intimation given throughout the whole scriptures , of any thing sinfull or displeasing unto god , in what either elisha , or the people , or david did , in the particulars mentioned . those acts of solomon , commanding joab and shimei to be put to death , without any tryall or due processe of law against them , king . and so that of david , giving away mephibosheths estate to ziba , onely upon a displeasure conceived against him , with some others of other kings of judah , of like consideration , smelling too ranke of prerogative oyle , are much more questionable in point of lawfulnesse , and of farre more difficult reconciliation with principles of reason and equitie , and with the law of god it selfe then those other . but , . to the particular i answer . first , for the fact of the prophet elisha , calling out to those that were with him , to lay hands upon him that came armed with the kings authority and command , to take away his head , and to shut the doore against him ; that in this he did nothing but what was pleasing unto god , appeares from the circumstance of time , and that posture of spirit , wherein the prophet thus contended for his head against him that would needs have had it from him . he was now full of the spirit of god , and of prophecy : and was in that very instant , wherein his head should have beene taken from him , ready to cry out as a woman in travaile , and to bee delivered of that gracious message , which immediatly followes in the beginning of the succeeding chapter . now that so holy a man , and so great a prophet , should in that very point and instant of time , wherein he was full of the spirit of god , and ready to deliver a message from him of that high importance and unexpected grace to his people , fall into the soule sinne of rebellion against his lawfull king , is doubtlesse an incredibilitie of the first magnitude . secondly , the elders or statesmen of the kingdome , who were present , complyed with him in his motion , and assisted him in his opposition against the kings messenger , who came for his head ; laid hands upon him , and suffered him not to enter : which appeares from hence , because the prophets head stood still upon his shoulders . and this is yet a further confirmation of the lawfulnesse of that resistance , which he made , because it is unreasonable to thinke , that persons of that qualitie , and who cannot be conceived but to have understood themselves sufficiently in a businesse of that nature , being the peeres or chiefe officers of the kingdome , should have involved themselves in the danger and guilt of rebellion against the king : which ( doubtlesse ) they had done , had that act of the prophet , wherof they were abettors , had any streine or touch of rebellion in it . thirdly , and lastly , the king himselfe ( it seemes ) comming very shortly after into the place where the prophet and elders were , finding the execution , which in hot blood he had commanded , not done , the heate of his passion being somewhat over and abated , sate downe amongst them , and never so much as reproved either prophet or elders , for making the resistance they did to his messenger : which it is like he would have done , and that upon high termes , had he conceived either the one or the other to have beene within the verge of a rebellion ; or any other injury or indignitie offered either to his person , or to his crowne and dignitie . againe secondly for the people who delivered jonathan out of the hand of saul , there is no colour to conceive any thing unlawfull or unjustifiable therein . evident it is that themselves looked upon this fact before it was done , not only as a thing lawfull for them to doe , but as matter of dutie , and that which in conscience they were bound to doe . that expression of theirs implies as much : shall jonathan die , who hath so mightily delivered israel ? god forbid . ( sam. . . ) as the lord liveth there shall not one haire of his head fall to the ground . they conceived , that it had beene a sinne of a very high nature in them , if they should not have appeared for his rescue and deliverance , whom they not onely knew to be innocent , and to have done nothing worthy of death , but also to have wrought with god for their deliverance . nor is it easie to conceive what other ground or motive should have induced this people to runne the hazard of the kings displeasure in jonathans protection , then conscience onely : though its true , there is no intimation given of my complaint made , nor of any offence conceived by saul against the people for this fact of theirs , which is another argument of the lawfulnesse thereof , yea and of the unprejudicialnesse or in-offensivenesse of it to sauls kingly throane and dignitie , considering how tender and jealous saul was of these , and how impatient of the least touch ( yea though but imaginary onely ) in them , as appeares in the sequell of his history , especially by his violent persecution of david , upon very light and loose grounds of suspition this way . lastly , concerning davids gathering a strength of men and armes to him , whereby to make resistance against saul , or rather against that bloody association which conspired with him in a most unjust way , to take away his life ; evident it is , . that david , all the time of this his unjust persecution by saul and his complices , being still in eminent danger of his life , was more soft and tender conscienced then ordinary , and more afraid of sinning against god ; yea and prayed both more frequently and more fervently unto god to bee preserved from sinne , then at other times ; as appeares by many psalmes composed by him , during this his triall . now it is a thing altogether incredible , that a man otherwise according to gods owne heart , under the best and softest frame of spirit and conscience , that ever he liv'd in , and whilst hee made it his earnest prayer unto god daily to be kept from sinne , should so fouly miscarry , as to live in the sinne of rebellion against his lawfull king without repentance . . that he respected and honoured saul very highly , and was very tender of doing him the least harme . it is said , that his heart smote him , because he had cut off but the lap or skirt of his garment , sam. . . using moreover these words to his servents , whose fingers itch'd to have made sure worke with saul ; the lord forbid that i should doe this thing to my master the lords annointed , to stretch forth mine hand against him , seeing he is the anoynted of the lord , , vers . therefore certainly david in defending himselfe against sauls cavaliers with armes and men , neither offended god , nor wronged saul himselfe in the least measure . yea , . saul himselfe overcome with this expression of davids love and faithfulnesse unto him , acknowleded his innocencie , and the uprightnesse of his heart towards him , vers. . is this thy voyce , my sonne david ( saith saul ) and lift up his voyce and wept . and said to david , thou art more righteous then i : for thou hast rendred me good , and i have rendered thee evill . and thou hast shewed this day that thou hast dealt well with me , &c. saul did not onely acquit him from those high crimes , of treason , rebellion , sedition , &c. but from all manner of injury or iniustice at all done to him . and if saul against whom the offence ( if any ) had beene committed , iustifieth him , who shall with any colour of or equitie condemne him ? lastly ( for this particular ) the holy ghost himselfe gives this expresse testimony concerning david ; that he did that which was right in the sight of the lord , and turned from nothing that he commanded him all the dayes of his life , save onely in the matter of vriah the hittite , king. . . whereas , if that fact of his , defending himselfe by force of armes , against saul and his confederates in blood against him , had beene of any such interpretation as some would make it , ( by making other cases like unto it ) as either treason , rebellion , or the like ; doubtlesse this had beene an higher and greater matter of exception against him , then the matter of vriah it selfe . but yet further that their practise in the particular mentioned respectively , and so yours , being onely conformable thereunto , was , and is every wayes iustifiable ; and of perfect consistence with the rules of reason , equity and all good conscience , and no wayes derogatory to kingly power and authority , i remonstrate and prove by this one consideration . men that have no lawfull authority or power to take away the lives or goods of men , may very lawfully be resisted in any attempt they shall make , to doe either ; and if their lives miscarry in such attempts , they have their meanes in their owne hands , ( as we say ) their blood is upon their owne heads . this i suppose is a pregnant and knowne principle both in reason and religion . if a man assaults another upon the high way , and seekes to take away his mony or life from him ; if the person assaulted slayes the other se defendendo ( as the law speakes ) there is neither law nor conscience will take hold on , or reprove him for it . this proposition is manifest . i go on therefore and adde , but men can have no lawfull authority or power , by any warrant or commission from a king to take away the lives , or goods , of those that are innocent and have not transgressed the law , no not of those that are not in a lawfull way convicted for transgressors of the law . therefore such men as these may lawfully be resisted in any attempts they shall make either upon our lives , or our goods , notwithstanding any warrant , commission , or command they have , or pretend to have , from a king to doe it . and take that along with you which apparently followes from hence : if such persons so assaulted may lawfully resist such assailants , then may they every whit as lawfully provide themselves before hand of such meanes , where with they may be able to make the resistance when time comes . as , if it be lawfull for a traveller to kill a thiefe upon the way in the defence of his life , or money ; certainly it is lawfull for him to ride with a sword , pistoll , or the like , wherewith he may be able to doe it ; it is ridiculous to grant the lawfulnesse of an end , and to deny a lawfulnesse of meanes necessary and sufficient to attaine that end . but some ( it may be ) will deny that proposition , which affirmeth , that those men have no lawfull power or authority to seize upon mens lives or goods who are innocent , and as yet so reputed by the law , having the authority and command of the king to doe it . that therefore no unjust , or unrighteous command of a king , can enable any man with any lawfull power to put in execution any such command , i thus demonstrate ( though indeed it be a thing evident enough in it self without any demonstration ) no king can derive any power or authority to another , to any minister , officer , or the like , but only that wherewith himselfe is invested , and possessed of , either formally , or by way of eminencie and surplussage . but no king is himself invested with any authority or power to doe any thing which is uniust , or unrighteous therefore hee can not impart or give any such power to another : and consequently those that attempt or doe any thing by vertue of any uniust command from a king , had every whit as good doe the thing upon their owne heads and authority , without any warrant or commission from the king at all● the fact as touching the lawfullnesse of it , is but of one and the same consideration in both cases . now that a king himself hath no power or authority at all ▪ to doe any thing that is uniust or unequall , is yet more evident then the former , thus : all power that a king hath in point of government , is derived upon him , either by god , or by men , or both : but it is a truth of the cleerest evidence that neither the one , nor the other , neither god , nor man conferreth any power upon him to doe unjustly . concerning god , there is not the least question to be made : he gives no man authority to sin ; but layes his authority and command upon all the world to doe righteously : and as for men , supposing they be but reasonable men that have conferred the power upon a king , it cannot be thought , or once imagined , that they should give a power out of themselves , against themselves ; a power to injure , or to wrong either them or their posterity . and though they should be conceived to do a thing so inconsistent with reason and even common sence , yet such an act of theirs , were a meere nullitie : the king was never the more possest of any such power , because they that are supposed to have conferred it upon him , had it not in themselves , nor the least right or power to derive it upon any other . yea , but ( will the malignant doctors ) still object and reply , who shall be judge in this case , whether the command or commission of a king , given to an officer , or other subiect , to be put in execution , be uniust , or no ? is it not fit , that rather the king himselfe should be iudge in this case , then every private man ? is it fit to give way or allow , that every private man should scan , examine , iudge , and determine either the righteousnesse or unrighteousnesse of the kings command ? doth not such a liberty as this tend to dissolve the bands of obedience to superiours ? to poure contempt upon kings and rulers , and to fill the world with confusion ? to this i answer , first , that for many things that are commanded by kings and superiours , there needs little or no examination or sitting , whether they be lawfull , or no . their unlawfulnesse is written ( as it were ) in their foreheads , with such capitall letters , that he that runs may reade it . a man needs no skill either in arithmetique or geometrie , nor the use of any rule or square , to try either whether the bow be streight , or the string bent and crooked . halfe an eye is sufficient provision for this decision . the command of that idolatrous king nebuchadnezzar with his nobles , that men should worship his golden image , was so notoriously wicked , that those three servants of god , shadrack , meshack , and abednego , were not carefull to answer the king concerning it . dan. . . that is , they would never take time to study or consider whether they should obey it , or no . such was the command of the elders and rulers to peter and iohn , when they commanded them that in no wise they should speake or teach in the name of iesus . act. . . . besides many others both upon sacred , ecclesiastick , and civill record , of like condition and importance . . if it be not lawfull for inferiours to examine and enquire into the commands of kings , and other their superiours , whether they be lawfull or no ; then is there a necessity lying upon men by way of duty , to make men equall with god , and to iudge them as unerringly , as universally righteous and holy , as he ; which a man of conscience will hardly forbeare to call blasphemy . the sequell is evident : because men can rise no higher in their thoughts and apprehensions of god himselfe in this kinde , then to iudge him absolutely and unquestionably righteous , worthy to be obeyed , in whatsoever he shall command , without examination . . if men were either bound to , or lawfully might obey their superiors without all examination , there would be no place left for that command of our saviour , wherein he prohibites his friends and servants , to feare those that could only kill the body ; meaning by such , either only , or principally kings and rulers , who are commonly said to have potestatem vitae & ●ccis , power of life and death . there is no reason to thinke , that either kings or rulers should take away the lives of those that will comply with them in all their desires ▪ and commands : and as little reason is there for any man to thinke , that men should run the hazzard of being killed , by disobeying the commands and will of kings , if they might safely , and with the peace of a good conscience obey and comply with them . . it is no more disparagement or dishonour to kings or rulers to have their commands examined by those to whom they are directed and given , then it was for paul and the rest of the apostles to have their preachings and doctrines examined by the inferiour sort of christians that heard them . these were every whit as great ( if not far greater ) in spirituall authority and dignity , as kings themselves are in politique and civill . now the holy ghost is so far from reproving those , who examined the things which they heard from paul himselfe , that he hath left it upon record as matter of especiall commendation to them , that they daily searched the scriptures , whether things were so or no , as he had taught them , act. . . yea , the apostles themselves were so far from looking upon it , as any matter of prejudice to them or their reputations , that what they delivered and taught , should bee brought to the touch-stone by those that heard them , that they required this at their hands by way of duty , and exhorted them unto it . see cor. . . thes. . . &c. and yet far greater reason is there , why the teaching of the apostles should have been {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , .i. priviledged from account , then the commands of kings : because they had a promise of such a presence of the spirit of truth with them , that he should lead them into the way of all truth ; whereas kings , both in the framing and publishing of their commands , are left to an arbitrary assistance from heaven , after the manner of other men . . the wrath of god hath been revealed from heaven , .i. hath been shewed in very remarkable and exemplary manner , upon those who have swallowed the commands of kings , and submitted unto them in things unlawfull . those officers that obeyed king nebuchadnezzars command in casting those three innocent servants of god into the fiery furnace , were suddenly consumed by the flame that came out of the furnace ; whereas those that streined at the kings command , & exchanged it ( as the scripture phrase is ) meaning ( i conceive ) for the commandement of god , obeying this in the stead , remained untouched of the fire in the midst of the furnace , dan. . . so the men of israel that had obeyed the commandement of saul in giving their assistance to him for the persecuting of david , were punished together with saul , fleeing and falling down wounded before the philistines , as peter martyr hath well observed upon sam. . . so of that great host of assyrians , that joyned with their king in an unlawfull war against the church and people of god , there were . slaine in one night by an angel , king. . . to passe by all other examples of the severity of god in this kinde , that is most worthy consideration , which is recorded , chron. . it is said , ver. . that after the death of jehoiada , the princes of iuda came and did reverence unto the king , and that the king hearkened to them . not long after , they conspired together against zachariah , a faithfull prophet of the lord , for dealing faithfully with them , and at the kings commandement , stoned him with stones , in the court of the house of the lord , ver. . but ( saith the story , ver. . ) it came to passe at the end of the yeare , that the host of syria came up against him : and they came to iuda and ierusalem and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people , &c. the just revenging hand of god , singling out from amongst many thousands , those persons by name , who had obeyed the king in a way of unrighteousnesse , though they were the chiefest and greatest of them , and in that respect ( in all likelihood ) kept furthest off from the danger , and had more outward provision for their safety , then others . . ( and lastly for this ) if this liberty we speak of , of examining the commands of kings and other superiours , were granted unto , and used by those that are in subjection , it would not devest or bereave kings or rulers of any obedience at all , that were worth the having or receiving from men , or that were truly honourable or safe for them to receive . all that in reason it could be conceived to doe in this kinde , is to prevent and cut off all such obedience from kings , which would endanger their cutting off , and their states and kingdomes with them . if this liberty , or duty rather , of examining the commands of superiours , had been preached and pressed upon the consciences of men with that authority and power , which the truth and high concernment of it will beare , or rather ( indeed ) required , those crownes might have flourished upon the heads of kings , which now begin to droope and languish ; and those nations enioyed abundance of peace under them , the foundations of whose safety are now shaken . ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgement , because he willingly followed the commandement , viz. of king jeroboam , who commanded the worshipping of the golden calfe . hos. . . here is the fruit of the forwardnesse of a nation to obey and comply with an idolatrous king , even to be oppressed and broken in judgement ▪ .i. not only to be sorely afflicted , but utterly ruined and destroyed , and that in a course of iustice , and of the righteous proceedings of god against them . in this cup of trembling and astonishment which they were compelled to drink from the hand of god , there was none other ingredient , but their own wayes ; and that which it seemes was predominant in the mixture , was their forwardnesse to side with their king , in that false religion and worship which he maintained . and for the ruine and destruction of jeroboam himselfe and his house , that is much considerable from the pen of the h. ghost , that it is not ascribed so much to his sin & wickedness in comm●nding idolatry , as to the sin & wickedness of the people in obeying . and this thing ( saith the history , speaking of jeroboam's calfe , and command given to the people to worship them . king. . ) turned to sin , meaning to a provocation of a very high nature , to such a sin , which even rooted out and destroyed the house of jeroboam from the face of the earth . cap. . . but how , or by what meanes did jeroboams calves and idolatrous commands concerning them , turne to such a sin or provocation , as was his ruine ? the holy ghost ascribes this to the obedience of the people in this behalfe : and this thing turned to sin : for the people went to worship before the one , even unto dan. clearely implying , that that sin which was the ruine and rooting out of ieroboam and his house , was not so much his wicked and idolatrous command , considered simply and in it selfe , but as it found obedience and subiection in the people . the people in true accompt , who magnified ieroboam in his commands , above god in his , were they that ruined both ieroboam and his house . and generelly , all that kings and princes gaine , by an unlawfull subiection and obedience from their people , is little else but the kindling of the fire of gods iealousie against them . i am the lord ( saith god , esa. . . ) this is my name : and my glory will not i give to another , .i. i will not suffer it to be given to , nor to be received by another ; i will sell it deare to him that shall own it , and will recover it out of his ruine . we know herod was smitten by an angell from heaven , and soon cast up that morsell of divine honour which he had swallowed , by a miserable , shamefull , and loathsome death . as those that make images of wood , stone , silver , go●d , or the like , to be adored and worshipped , doe the greatest iniury that may be to those poore innocent creatures ; they expose them to the fury and iealousie of god , whereby they commonly suffer a dissolution of their beeing before their time , as the brasse whereof the brazen serpent was made , did , being broken all to pieces , when incense was once offered unto it , kin. . . and the gold whereof aarons calfe was made , being burnt in the fire , and stamped and ground small , even to very dust , and this also cast into the river , deut. . . so they that will devest the great god of heaven and earth , to cloath kings and princes , or whomsoever , with the spoiles of his name , as all those doe , who obey them with disobedience unto god , as in one sence they make them gods , so in another , by making them gods , they make them indeed more men then they were , more obnoxions to his displeasure , who hath the command of their life and breath . consider that passage ( to omit many others of like importance ) which you shall finde , esa. . . and the strong , .i. the idoll , either because in the idolaters conceit , it is strong like a god , or rather strong , in respect of the firmnesse and durablenes of the matter of it , shall be as tow , and the maker therof , as a spark : they shall both burne together , and none shall quench them . marke well : how strong and durable soever the matter is , whereof the idoll is made , whether it bee the best heart of oake that can be gotten , or the hardest and firmest stone , silver , gold , or the like , or if there be any thing more durable , and more resisting corruption , then these , yet being made an idoll , it becomes as tow , i. of a very weake and perishable nature : and the maker of it ( saith he ) shall be as a sparke , viz. to set this tow on fire ; meaning that he is the cause both why that good substance , which was made into an idoll , perisheth so suddenly , and likewise of his owne perishing by the hand and iudgement of god . in like manner , when men or women shall make idols of kings and princes , and great men , and fall downe before them , and worship them with divine worship , as all they in effect doe , who yeeld obedience unto them against god , what doe they else but shake the very foundations of their lives , and present beeings in the world , and call for the fire of gods iealousie from heaven to consume them : whereas on the contrary , those that soberly , and out of conscience refuse to obey them upon such termes , i meane , against god , they doe them as good service , if they would please so to apprehend and interpret it , as mordecai did to king ahashuerosh , when he revealed the treason of the two eunuchs against him . he that refuseth to obey a superiour in an unlawfull command , giveth notice to him , that his foote is in a snare of death , and that his preservation stands in his desisting and repenting . i shall mention only one obiection more wherewith that unhappy learning of the contrary side , useth to be very importune , and to triumph much in it . the christians in the primitive times submitted themselves with patience to those most uniust and cruell commands of the heathen emperors , when they sent their officers to put them in execution , and to take their lives from them : they never resisted , nor stood upon their guard , but tooke even death it selfe , yea , and many times torments worse then death , patiently . and whereas this might otherwise be sufficiently answered , that they made no resistance , because they were not able , they had no considerable strength to make good any resistance ; to take away this answer ; they usually cite a place out of one of the fathers , tertullian by name , wherein he disclaimes this ground of their patience in suffering , writing unto the states , or senators of the empire , affirming , that they had a considerable party of christians in their dominions , whereby they were able to have made resistance against them . because this objection is matter of so much confidence and triumph to the adversary , i shall desire leave to examine it the more thoroughly , and to search the bottome and foundations of it in my answer to it , i shall first speake to the testimony propounded , and consider the validitie or likelihood of the truth thereof ; and secondly , ( for argument sake ) the truth of it being granted or supposed , we shall indeavour to shew of how little force or concernment it is , any wayes to disable the truth of that position we have in hand , which justifieth a resistance against the violent execution of any unjust command from kings , in those that are assaulted under pretence thereof ; therefore as concerning the testimony of tertullian , touching the sufficiencie of strength the christians in his time should have to resist the emperour and all his power . i answer . first , that this father might easily be mistaken in taking the proportion , and making the estimate of the strength and power of christians within the compasse of the roman empire , in comparison of the strength of those that were ready to oppose them . this was no point of faith , nor of christian religion ; and therefore a devout father might easily fall under a misprision herein . the common saying indeed is , that unicuique in arte sua credendum , i. e. every man is to be beleeved in his owne art or profession , but no rule of charitie or reason bindes us to believe another in any thing which belongs to the art or profession of another , and wherein himselfe is little versed or exercised . now to weigh the strength of a kingdome , state , or empire , ( as it were ) in a ballance , and to make an estimate of , and compare together the power of severall parties or divisions of people in it with so much exactnesse , as to determine which is the stronger , and which the weaker , belongs to the profession and imployment of a states-man , not of a divine , orminister of the gospell , of one that sits at the sterne of the empire , not of one whose heart , and time , and strength are taken up with the studie of the mysteries of heaven , yea for a states-man himselfe to be able upon sufficient grounds , precisely to determine such differences as we speake of , i meane betweene the strength and strength of different parties in a state , where there is any neerenesse or appearance of an equality , wil require both double diligence and treble sufficiency in him otherwise . . how easily might he mistake and miscarry in a matter quite beside his profession and course , who not long after miscarryed so grievously in his owne , as to turne montanist , who called himselfe the holy ghost , and to approve of the dreames and furious fancies of those two vile women , maximilla and prisca ( montanus his wicked associates ) for true prophecies . yea stayed not here neither , but joyned himselfe with those heretiques called cataphryges , who condemned second marriages as adulterous and prohibited by god : besides divers other misprisions in his owne profession , which would take up too much time to insist particularly upon : a memorable example and warning ( as it were ) from heaven , how unsafe and dangerous it is to build upon the authority of men . . it is well observed by one , that there is an aptnesse and pronenesse of inclination in much devotion , in persons devoutly given , to over-value the workes and piety of other men . now this father out of such a principle or inclination as this is , desirous to extoll and magnifie the patience of christians , might easily draw in such a circumstance as this for such a purpose , upon very weake and slender grounds for it . . it is generally observed and knowne by the writings and records of these times , that even in the pious and orthodox fathers themselves there were some touches and st●eines , some fibrae of that roote of bitternesse which afterwards grew ranke , and flourished above measure in the times of popery , yea and brought forth fruit abundantly unto death . i meane , an inclination to credit and countenance their religion in the sight of the heathen and the world about them , by very slender reports and relations of things , as of miracles , visions strange accidents , &c. which are generally rejected , as fabulous and false , by the sounder and more considerate knowledge of these latter dayes . . supose there might be considerable numbers of men of the christian party in the empire ( though to me it is one of the things i least beleeve ) to withstand the heathen party therein , yet doubtlesse these were kept under , as the israelites were in aegypt , when they began to multiply . it is no wayes likely , that if they were any wayes formidable for their numbers , that they should be suffered to have any proportion of armes or meanes , either of offence or defence , in case they were assaulted . it being contrary to all reason and rule of state , to suffer a party of an opposite religion to the state , and worshipping another god then the state allowed , growing to any considerable numbers within them , to have farther any such proportion or quantity of weapons , armes , or meanes in any kinde , whereby they might endanger and become formidable to the state . now then granting that which this father spake concerning the numbers of christians amongst the heathens , that they had number for number , man for man , and in this respect might seeme to ballance them , and be able enough to resist them ; yet wanting armes and other meanes of defence , wherewith it cannot be conceived but that the adverse party abounded , it had been in vaine for them to have made resistance when violence was offered unto them . and thus much for the first part of my answer , to shew the questionablenesse , or rather indeed the great unlikelihood of the truth of that testimony , which is brought to support the objection propounded , which otherwise would fall to the ground of it selfe . i goe on to the second part of my answer , which is to prove and to shew , that though the testimony be admitted for truth , yet the objection will not reach the question , or case in hand . therefore suppose we the father that spake as we have heard , viz. that the christians under the heathen emperours should be able enough to have defended themselves , yea to have opposed the emperour himselfe with his party , spake nothing herein but the truth ; yet it doth not follow , that all those of his profession , i meane all the christians that were scattered up and downe the face of the empire should have the same apprehensions with him herein , should thinke themselves strong enough to resist their adversaries , in case they were opposed . those particular persons that were called out here and there , some after others , to suffer , might very probably , yea , could not lightly but conceive and thinke , that if they should have made any resistance against them that came to lay violent hands upon them , and to put them to death , they should have but enraged their malice against them the more , and so have encreased their own torments : yea , and happily have provoked the heathen party , to rage so much the more against their christian brethren , who yet remained amongst them . so that in those that were called to suffer , it had been both want of wisdome , in respect of themselves , and of charitie in respect of others , if they should have made the least resistance against those unjust and bloody officers , that were sent against them to take away their lives . if it be here replyed and said ; yea but the whole body and partie of christians throughout the empire , having sufficent strength might have agreed to have risen up at once , and have suppressed their adversaries , if they had judged it lawfull . to this , answer hath in part been made already : as first , that it is no waies probable that they had any sufficiencie of strength , no not of men , to have made good such an attempt , much lesse that they had any competent provision of meanes otherwise , which had been requisite therunto . secondly , that though it should be granted , that they had a sufficiencie of strength both wayes , yet is it no wayes necessary that therefore they should all be of the same minde and judgement touching this sufficiencie ; that they should all be perswaded that their party were strong enough to deale with their adversaries . we know that many attempts , projects , and undertakings which have been in treaty and agitation , have been deserted and laid aside , only through the different judgements and apprehensions of those that vvere concerned , and to have been engaged therein , touching the expedience or feaceablenesse of them . as that proiect of achitophell for the immediate and close following of david , was deserted by absolon , and his party , and not put in execution , because of the different advise which hushai the archit gave . a late instance hereof vve had likewise amongst our selves : that dangerous designe of bringing up the army out of the north against the parliament , proved abortive , the execution of it never seeing the light of the sun , through the different opinions of those that were , & were to have been in speciall maner concerned therin ; some conceiving it to have been a proiect deserving the name of none such ; others no wayes daring to adventure themselves , their lives , and fortunes , nor some ( perhaps ) their consciences , upon it . in like manner for the christians living within the romane empire , to have made head and risen up ageinst the maine body and state of the empire to suppresse them , had been an enterprise of that dangerous and grievous consequence , in case it had miscarryed : especially the grounds of the successe of it being so uncertaine and weake as they were , that it hath not the least appearance or shew of likelihood , that ever it should be generally consented unto by the whole society of the christians ; without which there was no attempting the putting of it into execution . to this may be added . . that suppose the christians wee spake of had been generally confident of their strength and had made little question but that they might have carried it against the emperor and his ; yet having no invitation , countenance or command from any authoritie , rule , or lawfull power in the empire to attempt any such thing , their case was farre differing from ours who are invited , countenanced , encouraged , and some waies commanded by as great and as lawfull an authority as this state hath any , to doe what you have been exhorted to doe in opposing the rage and violence of that malignant and blood-thirsty generation , who having stollen away the heart of the king , make use of his name to make havock and spoile of your lawes , liberties , estates , lives , religion , yea of the peace , honour , and safety of the whole kingdome . it is the expresse command and ordinance of god that inferiour magistrates , and rulers should be obeyed as well as kings , as we observed formerly out of that of peter , pet. . , . therefore submit your selves unto every , or all manner of ordinance of man , for the lords sake , whether it be unto the king as unto the superiour , or unto governours , as those that are sent of him , for the punishment of evill-doers , &c. so that inferiour governours are by the expresse commandement of god to be obeyed , as well as the superiour . now then put the case that the inferiour governour requires that which is only honest , agreeable to the laws of god and of nature , as , viz. that we should doe our best to defend our selves against those that contrary to all law and conscience assault us ; the superiour , that which is contrary to both , viz. to sit still whilest our lawes , liberties , estates , lives , friends , godly magistrates , and religion it selfe , are indangered , and ready to be taken from us ; the question in this case , whether we are to obey the inferiour or superiour authority ; ( the command of god indifferently extending it for obedience unto either , in things that are lawfull ) is easily resolved , except men will complaine and say it is darke at noone day . when it shall be substantially proved unto us , that an unlawfull command from a superiour magistrate , dissolves and makes void that commandement of god , whereby we stand bound to obey the inferiour , in that which is lawfull ; we may then have cause to make a demurre touching the goodnesse of the cause ; but till then we may be bold to say , it is day , when the sun shineth . this then is a difference very considerable , between the case of primitive christians , and ours , in the point in hand , supposing they had power to defend themselves against the persecuting agents and instruments of the emperour , yet had they not any countenance or command from any authority in that state to doe it , which we have in ours . . still supposing ( that which yet is never to be granted , till it be better proved ) that the primitive christians we spake of ▪ had a sufficiency of power , to have defended themselves against the persecuting emperours , and did it not , yet there may be this reason given , why they should rather patiently suffer , than make resistance , because whilest they were yet heathen and unconverted to the christian faith , they consented to that power or authority in the emperour , whereby he made those bloody edicts for the persecuting and murthering of poore christians . now it had been a very unreasonable thing and justly offensive , both in the eyes of god and men , if the same persons who had established a power or authority in the hand of a ruler , should have resisted or opposed him , or his agents and ministers in the execution of it . a servant of god , though he sweares or bargaines to his owne hurt , yet must he not change , as you have it , psal. . . but wee are under no such ingagements , or bands , and therefore have a liberty which they had not : for though a mans consent to an unlawfull power , be in absolute and simple consideration a meere nullity , and such a power never the more lawfullized thereby ; yet by all rules of reason and equity , such a consent ought to be a bar against him that hath given it , that he shall not , for any carnall benefit or advantage , breake out against him that exerciseth this power by vertue of such consent , meerly for such exercise sake . . be it granted that the christian party in the romane empire was very great ( as is pretended ) yet could it in no sence be called or looked upon as the whole state or body of the empire , as the paril mentary assembly is amongst us . this in a representative and legall consideration , is the whole body of the nation , and of all the persons in it , having the same power and authority by law , and in conscience too , to do every whit as much in every respect , as the whole nation , and all the particular persons therein could have , if they were met together . now that may be lawfull for an entire body or society of persons to doe , which may not be lawfull for a part , or some few of the society , save only in conjunction with the whole . the parliament ( we know ) being interpretatively , and in consideration of law , the whole body of the kingdome , hath a lawfull power , both to doe and command many things , which a far greater part or number of men in the kingdome , have not ; no , all the kingdome besides hath no such power , as they : and many things may be done very lawfully , and with a good conscience , by vertue of their appointment and command , which could not be done upon any such termes without it , though a thousand times more men or persons then they are should command them . . supposing they had such a power as we have oft supposed ( but never granted positively ) and that it was lawfull for them to have made resistance accordingly , yet may god by way of speciall dispensation ▪ and for very great and considerable ends of his , hide this liberty we speake of from their eyes ; that they should not see it to make use of . wee know there were many in the apostles time , who eat hearbs , when as yet it was as lawfull for them , in respect of any command of god to the contrary , to have eaten flesh ; but yet they did better to content themselves with hearbs , when god had not revealed and cleared up this liberty unto them . and yet they did as well as they too , who seeing their liberty in this kinde by the cleare light of the gospell , did take it , and eate flesh . consider that passage of the apostle , rom. . . he that observeth a day , observeth it unto the lord : and he that observeth not a day ▪ observeth it not unto the lord . he that eateth , eateth unto the lord ▪ for he giveth god thanks : and he that eateth not , eateth not unto the lord , and giveth god thankes . whereby it is evident that the forbearance of some actions by some men , wherein they approve themselves unto god , doth not at all prejudice or gainesay the like acceptation of others in their doing them : yea that some men may be bound in conscience to forbeare that , which another with a good conscience may doe . and this doubtlesse is ( if the testimony of tertullian mentioned be true ) the case betweene those primitive christians , and christians in these dayes . they might out of tendernesse of conscience , and out of an apprehension of some unlawfulnesse in it , forbeare to vindicate themselves against those bloody bucthers , that were set on worke by the emperours to destroy them : and yet christians in these dayes , seeing their liberty in this kinde , may as lawfully resist those that shall come against them in the like manner , as the other forbare it . if it be here objected and said that it is no wayes like that the church of god should generally be ignorant of such a libertie as wee speake of and challenge , if there were any such liberty indeed ; is it credible that god should hide such a point of truth as this from them all ? i answer first , it is not necessary to suppose that it should bee hid from them all without exception : it is sufficient for our purpose if it were hid from their teachers , and those that were leaders to the rest , upon whose judgement ( in things of this nature ) the generality of people then much depended . but secondly , if there were many ministers of the gospell and teachers ▪ even in the apostles times themselves , that were ignorant of that liberty which the gospell brought with it to the world , for the eating of flesh , the non-observation of dayes and of circumcision , &c. or at least were so faire ignorant , that they were not able to informe and satisfie the generall sort of christians therein , it may very well be conceived , that some hundreds of yeares after , when the light began to darken and wax dim ( in comparison ) they might now be generally ignorant of such a point of liberty as this we now speake of , at least so farre ignorant , as not to be able to satisfie the generalitie of their people therein . especially if we consider , thirdly , that from the dayes of the apostles , untill their numbers and strength were raised and increased to the supposed pitch of a sufficiencie to resist ( which was not lesse then neere . yeares ) there was no occasion , of studying , or looking into the point : they had beene in never the better case , whether they had had that liberty we speake of or no ; and therefore it is no marvaile if they neglected the searching after it . and when cases of conscience ( as this was ) lie unstudied and uninquired into , neither is it any marvaile if the resolution or state of the truth in them , bee not generally knowne . fourthly , that spirit of courage , patience and constancy , which god poured out abundantly upon his church & servants in those times , whereby they were so strengthned and incouraged to suffer , that martyrdome seemed a desirable thing unto them , might be a speciall reason and meanes to take them off from inquiring into , or so much as thinking what their lawfull liberty might be in the case we speake of . men that have a full estate in faire rents , as much as they can well spend , and as their heart desireth ▪ are not like , have no occasion to busie themselves in studying the case of usury , as whether it be lawfull to take increase for the lone of mony , or no ; which he that hath his estate in mony , hath . whilst the israelites were fed by god in an extraordinary way by manna from heaven , there was no necessitie or occasion for them to plough and sow . so whilst christians were furnished with an extraordinary strength from heaven , to offer themselves up in martyrdome , their edge must needs be taken off hereby , as from seeking meanes to escape it , so from studying cases and questions about the lawfulnesse of escaping . fiftly , whilst there lay a confessed necessity of suffering upon christians , i. e. till the supposed strength of resistance came to them ( which as was noted before , could not be much lesse then . yeares ) martyrdome was so extolled and magnified by the generall acclamations of the ministers , and continuall panegyricks , and orations made in praise thereof , that it is like no man would for a long time be endured , that should teach any doctrine that might any wayes seeme to take men off from the desire thereof . as there are many doctrines and points of religion amongst our selves that have beene a long time taught with so high an hand , and generally received with so full an applause , that it is not safe for any man to appeare so much as in a seeming opposition to them , ( though with never so much modestie and tendernesse . ) but , sixtly ( and lastly for this ) whether god was pleased to make use of one or both of their particulars last mentioned , or any other like unto them , as a meanes to hide that libertie of resistance wee speake of from the eyes of the primitive christians , or no ; certaine it is , that the frame and tenour of his after dispensations , did require , that such a libertie should be hid from them ; or at least that they should not make use of it ; as on the contrary , the nature and purport of those dispensations which god hath now in hand , requires that this libertie should be manifested and made knowne unto christians . we know that according to the counsell and foreknowledge of god , antichrist was then to come into the world : as now wee know that he is about to be destroyed and cast out of the world . now this is a generall rule , looke what truthes were necessary to be shut up and concealed from the churches of christ , that antichrist might passe by , and get up into his throane ; the discovery and letting out of the same into the world , are necessary for his pulling downe . for certaine it is , that antichrist could never have gotten up into that throane , whereon hee yet sits and shewes himselfe in his sacrilegious glory , had not god by speciall dispensation suffered him to make many truths his footstoole . if all truths had beene clearely taught in the church of christ , and accordingly received and beleeved , it had beene impossible that ever such a monster should have gotten into the temple of god , that should exalt himselfe above all that which is called god . but god causing a dead sleepe ( as it were ) to fall upon those truthes , which should in speciall manner have opposed him , hee had the opportunity without much contradiction or noyse to steale and convey himselfe into that cathedram pestilentiae , that chaire of papall state , which yet he possesseth . now amongst many other truths that were of necessity to be laid asleepe , for the passing of this beast unto his great power and authority , and for the maintayning and safe-guarding of him in the possession hereof , this is one of speciall consideration ; that christians may lawfully in a lawfull way , stand up to defend themselves , in case they be able , against any unlawfull assaults ; by what assailants , or by what pretended authoritie soever made upon them . for had this opinion beene timeously enough , and substantially taught in the church , it would certainly have caused an abortion in antichrists birth , and so have disappointed the divell of his first-borne . had not the spirits , and judgements , and consciences of men beene as it were cowed and marvellously imbased and kept under , ( and so prepared for antichrists lure ) by doctrines and tenents , excessively advancing the power of superiours , over inferiours , and binding iron yokes and heavy burthens upon those that were in subjection , doubtlesse they would never have bowed downe their backes so low as to let such a beast goe over them , they would never resigned up their judgements and consciences into the hand of such a spirituall tyrant as he . so that you see , there was a speciall necessitie for the letting of antichrist into the world , yea and for the continuance of him in his throne , that no such opinion as this which wee speake of , whether truth or untruth should be taught and beleeved ; i meane , which vindicateth and maintaineth , the just rights , and liberties , and priviledges of those that under authority , and subjection unto others . whereas , now on the contrary , that time of gods preordination and purpose , for the downefall of antichrist , drawing neere , there is a kinde of necessitie , that those truths , which have slept for many yeares , should now be awakened : and particularly that god should reveale and discover unto his faithfull ministers , and other his servants the just bounds and limits of authoritie , and power , and consequently the just and full extent of the lawfull liberties of those that live in subiection . evident it is , that they are the commonaltie of christians , i meane christians of ordinary ranke and qualitie that shall be most active , and have the principall hand in executing the judgements of god upon the whore ▪ consider that place , revel. . , , . and i heard another voyce from heaven say , goe out of her my people , that yee be not partakers in her sinnes , and that ye receive not of her plagues . for her sins are come up unto heaven , and god hath remembred her iniquities . reward her even as she hath rewarded you , and give her double according to her workes , and in the cup that she hath filled to you , fill her the double . now that this service shall be performed unto god by them ( christians i mean of under rank and qualitie ) contrary to the will , desires , or commands of those kings and princes under whom they live , it appeares by that which immediatly followes , verse . and the kings of the earth shall bewaile her and lament for her , which have committed fornication and lived in pleasure with her , when they shall see the smoake of her burning . it is evident that the people of god spoken of before , were subiects to these kings , that should bewayle the whore in her ruine ; for they are such as come out of babylon ; which could not be , except they had lived under those kings that were babylonish , and had given their kingdomes to the whore , and by whom babylonisme had been countenanced and set up . and that these ( or at least the greatest part of them ) should no wayes consent to the destruction of the whore by their subiects , it is evident by this ; they should waile and lament over her , when she is destroyed . as for that which is found in the former chapter concerning the . kings ( rev. . . ) into whose heart god hath put it to give their kingdomes or power to the beast , where it is said , that these should hate the whore and make her desolate , and naked , and eat her flesh , and burne her with fire ; i conceive this is not meant of the persons of kings , but of their states and kingdomes , i. e. of the generalitie of their people under them . . the expression , will fairely , and with full consonancie to the scripture language elsewhere , carry this sence and interpretation ; the bodies of states or kingdomes indefinitely taken and considered , being usually signified by their heads , as dukedomes by dukes , kingdomes by kings , &c. as wee have had occasion formerly to observe more at large when we produced severall instances from the scriptures of this kind of phrase . i shall ( for the present ) be your remembrancer onely of that one , dan. . . with verse . where verse the . the foure great beasts are said to be foure kings that shall arise out of the earth . yet verse . it is said that the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdome upon earth , which shall be diverse from all kingdomes , i. e. all the other three kingdomes formerly expressed by three kings . i could direct you to severall other texts of scripture where the same manner of speaking is found ; but that i hasten . . if we take the word , kings , properly , i. e. precisely for the persons that are the heads and chiefe rulers of kingdomes , in that scripture , and will say , that these shall hate the whore and make her desolate , &c. i apprehend no possibility ( for the present ) of reconciling this place , with that other mentioned , rev. . . where it is said , that the kings of the earth who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her , shall bewaile her , and lament for her , when they shall see the smoke of her burning . certainely they that shall hate her , and helpe to make her desolate , and to burne her with fire , will not bewayle her , nor lament over her , after such a manner , as is farther expressed in that which followes in this chapter . as for that exposition , which by the kings of the earth that should bewaile and lament over the whore in her burning , understandeth cardinalls , arch-bishops , bishops , &c. who in their port and pompe are as kings , it seemeth not probable ; i rather conceive these to be the merchants of the earth that should weepe and waile ever her , because no man buyeth their wares any more , vers. . and who are said to have waxen rich , by that long trade and trafique they had had with the world , in those babilonish commodities . therefore they are the ten kingdomes indefinitely considered . i. persons living within the ten kingdomes , not the ten kings personally and properly taken , that shall hate the whore and make her desolate , and burne her flesh with fire . now this promise and prediction of god concerning the destruction of the whore by christians of inferiour ranke and qualitie , can hardly be conceived however it should be fulfilled or take place , except the judgements and consciences of men should be losed and set at libertie from the bands and fetters of those enslaving doctrines and apprehensions , wherewith they had beene formerly oppressed and made servile above measure , to those that were in place and authority over them . thus then we see a ground and reason fully satisfactory , both how and why the christians in the primitive times , whilest antichrist was in comming , might well be ignorant of that liberty , the knowledge whereof would have kept him from his throne ; and also why that liberty should now be revealed by god and taught unto his people ; the ignorance whereof would still keepe and continue him upon his throne , when gods will and pleasure is that he shall be throwne downe . and this for answer to the objection last propounded ; and for the sixt particular , by way of answer to the maine objection . but , . ( and lastly ) whatsoever the credit or authority of tertullian may be for the strength of christians in primitive times , to make resistance against their enemies ▪ & how justifiable , or commendable soever the patience & subjection of these christians in suffering as they did , may be by some conceived to be , supposing they had such a power to have defended themselves , as is supposed ; yet most certaine it is , that as well the authority of the one as the submission of the other , yea and both together , being both apocriphall , are too light to weigh against the authority of the practice of that great prophet elisha , who made resistance against the kings messenger , that was sent against him to take away his head ( as we instanced to you in the former part of this discourse ) as also against david , a man after gods own heart , who being but a private man , strengthened himselfe as well as hee could , both with men and armes , yea and with goliahs sword to boote , to defend himselfe against the unjust and bloody persecution of saul ; both which examples ( besides others of like importance ) are canonicall . elisha must not be censured as an evill-doer , nor david condemned for a traytor , or rebell , either because tertullian saith , that there were christians enough in the romane empire , to make their party good against the emperour & his wicked instruments , nor yet because these christians did not stand up in their owne defence , having sufficiency of strength to have done it . thus we see there is nothing at all in the patience or submission of the primitive christians , so much urged and insisted upon , to discountenance that cause and service , wherein your best concurrence hath been desired , of any consideration or concernment that way . to rise up in your owne defence , in the defence of your lives , your estates , your liberties , your wives , your children , your friends , your lawes , your religion , against those , who without any lawfull authority or warrant either of god or men , are risen up with all their might , and all their power to make havock , and spoile , and ruine of all , is no wayes offensive either in the sight of god , or reasonable men . and ( to conclude ) if any man be afraid that martyrdome should suffer by this , as either that the glory hereof should be eclipsed , or that all opportunities of expressing our selves unto god and jesus christ in such a service , should be cut off , and taken away by such an opinion . i answer , no : the glory and praise of martyrdome will remaine as entire , with this doctrine , as without it , and the opportunities of shewing our selves in our love and faithfulnesse unto christ in such a service , will no wayes be diminished hereby . for first , the glory and praise of martyrdome or suffering for christ , doth not consist in lying down , and suffering proud and wicked men to ride over our heads , in sitting still whilest our estates , liberties , wives , children , friends , are ruined and destroyed before our faces , when god puts an opportunity into our hand to defend them ; the name and gospell of jesus christ would rather suffer losse by such a patience as this , then any wayes gaine ; it were more infidell-like , then christian , not to make the best provision we can , for the safety of those that are so neare to us in such a case . but the grace and glory of martyrdome lyeth in this ; first , when a man is resolved to professe the name , and faith of christ , what danger soever hee incurs , what losse soever he sustaines , or is like to sustaine by it . secondly , when it comes to the necessity of suffering , that he baulkes not , nor saulters with christ : that he is not any wayes ashamed of him , or any of his words , or wayes . thirdly , when a man disdeignes deliverance upon any base termes , or by unworthy meanes , that scornes to fly away for the enjoyment of any rest , except it be with the wings of a dove ( the scripture embleme of innocency ) which is covered with silver wings ( as david speakes ) and her feathers like yellow gold . it is ever honourable to fly with such wings as these . fourthly ( and lastly ) when god doth not open a doore of lawfull escape unto him , either by flight or otherwise , but hedgeth him up ( as it were ) with thornes into the hand of the persecutor , that he patiently and with meeknesse and composednesse of spirit , without any breakings out in one kinde or other , without any expression of discontent either against god or man , submitteth himselfe unto the stroke , in what kinde soever it falls upon him . and secodly , for opportunities of martyrdome , of suffering for christ , and that in numbers more then we desire , they will not be wanting , though we shall not-suffer every base cavalier , that saith he is for the king to cut our throats , or to plunder our cities , townes , or houses , to commit outrages and insolencies upon wives , children , friends , &c. . it is a suffering for christ ( and so a degree or kinde of martyrdome ) to suffer those things which we doe , in feares , in dangers , in distractions , in runnings , or removings up and downe , in disappointments of our affaires , in the losse , expence , or forbearance of our estates , by those men of belial , that are as thornes in our eyes , and scourges in our sides , only or chiefly because we will be that in open and constant profession , which by the grace of god we are inwardly and in the truth of our soules ; because we will not prostitute our consciences to the lusts of their father the devill , we will not give the right hand of fellowship to them , in those desperate courses of wickednesse and prophannesse wherein they are engaged , and wherein ( it seemes ) they meane to weary , yea and weare themselves out before they will give over . . we lie open to the hatred and malice , to the mockings and scoffings , to the rayling and revilings , to the slanders and lyings of the whole malignant party round about us ; and that because we hold forth the lord jesus christ in his holinesse and purity , in his power and authority over the world , in his truth , and faithfulnesse , in his mercy , and goodnesse , in his glory , and majesty , in our lives , and conversations . and this is a martyrdome too , or suffering for christ . . ( and lastly ) we know not how soon or suddenly we may be called out by god , to suffer even a perfect and compleate martyrdome indeed , to lay downe our lives for christ ; when god will hedge up every way of escape against us with thornes , and leave us in peters streights , to stretch forth our hands , and have another to gird us , and to lead us whither we would not . john . . so that we shall leave occasions , and opportunities enough , even as many as god himselfe ever made , for the expressing of our love and faithfulnesse unto christ and his gospell in wayes of suffering , though we stand up like men , and quit our selves with all our might , and all our strength , against those assacinates , and sworne sword-men of the devill , who have conspired the death and ruine of all that feareth god in the land . only for a close of all that i have to say in this point , let me adde this one thing by way of caution , that opportunities of suffering martyrdome will not alwayes continue in the church for the servants of god : yea , the time draweth neare , when they shall cease and be no more . the sad retinue of the first things , ( as they are called rev. . ) which hath been a long time in passing by , even for many generations , is now almost quite passed ; god is now bringing up the reere of this host of sorrowes , and when this is passed , he will turne the wheele of his providence and dispensations , between his own church , and the synagogue of sathan . that side which hath been down hitherto , shall be upward , and that which hath been above , shall be below : now the devils saints , and the children of the whore , even all fearefull and unbeleeving ones , and abominable , and murtherers , and whoremongers , and sorcerers ; and all lyars , they shall be called to their martyrdome , and the saints of the most high shall give them double , of their owne cup . * they that led into captivity hitherto , shall now goe into captivity themselves : and they that killed with the sword hitherto , shall now be killed with the sword themselves . and who they are that shall now lead into captivity , and slay with the sword , you may informe your selves , rev. . , . reward her , even as she hath rewarded you : you , viz. in your brethren , that have walked in the steps of the same faith and holinesse with you : and give her double , &c. this is the honour which the saints shall have , to execute the judgement that is written , upon the whore . another motive to strengthen your hand the same way , may be to consider , that as the cause recommended to you is every waies justifiable , so is it a matter of the highest & deepest concernment unto you to stand by it & advance it to the utmost you are able , yea ( if it were possible ) above & beyond what you are able to do . all your interests , relations , & concernments in this world are bound up in it : yea , it narrowly concernes you in relation to the world which is to come , your everlasting estate and condition is not lightly concerned in it . first , what have you in this world amongst all that which you call yours , any wayes deare or precious unto you , but that the line of this cause , whatsoever it proves , is like to be stretched upon it : the cause which is now depending and pleading between you and your adversaries , will certainly be either the rising or falling of it . . for your estates , these are already designed , by your enemies , for a reward and recompence of their labour and travell in procuring your ruine . your silver , and gold , your houses , and lands , with all your precious and pleasant things besides , must call you masters no more , if you fall into the hands of these devourers . if they prevaile , they will be like a sweeping raine ( as solomon speakes ) that will leave no food . you must looke for no other mercies from them , but those that are cruell ; you heare daily from divers parts of the land , of what spirit they are in this kinde ▪ what spoyle and rapine they make of the precious substance of your brethren , where they have opportunity to fall ; notwithstanding they are not yet in a posture to their mindes , to follow this occupation of ruine and spoile , as they desire and hope to doe . they have a bridle of some feare in the jawes of their fury , they cannot stay by their work , they cannot gather in their harvest so cleane as they desire . but if they doe these things being but yet in the valley , what will they doe , if they should make good the mountaine ? if they commit such insolencies as these in the day of their feares , what will they doe in the day of their power , if ever this sun should arise upon them ? i beseech you consider this , you that have lived at ease , and in all fulnesse hitherto , and have wanted nothing of all that your hearts could desire , to make your lives comfortable unto you ; that have had food , and rayment , and lodging , and harbour , upon such termes , that your flesh it selfe , though apt enough to murmure and complaine , hath yet been ashamed to complaine of any want or scarcity in any kinde ; tell me how , or what will you do in such a day , wherein your faire necks , that never had yoke upon them to this day , shall be wrung and galled , and torne with those iron yokes , of poverty , nakednesse , hunger , cold , contempt , want of all things ? will not the dayes and yeares of your former plenty and fulnesse be seen upon you in abundance of sorrow and extremity ? and is it not in vaine for you to thinke that this cup shall passe by you , that you drinke not of it , if ever it be in the power of those enemies of yours we speake of , to make you to drinke ? doubtlesse they must want of their will if you doe not drinke , yea and suck out the very dregs of it . whereas on the contrary , if you shall only this one time make good your standings against them , and break this enterprise , as far as humane reason is able to judge , and according to the ordinary course of gods admistration of things in the world , they are never like to rise up against you , nor to endanger the peace of your outward enjoyments the second time . if you will now be perswaded to give out your selves like men , to advance the cause in hand , that which you doe is like to be a bulworke , and an impregnable defence for the time to come , to your possessions , and estates , against all violence and oppression of men in this kind . . for your liberties , this is another pretious possession of yours in the world . i speake here onely of your civill or politick libertie , which is of equall accommodation and desirablenesse ( if not of superiour ) with your estates : and this likewise will certainly be oppressed and seized upon , and turned into a miserable slavery and bondage , if that bloody generation shall carry the day against you , and make themselves lords over you . that of peter , pet. . . is like to come upon you in this case : of whomsoever a man is overcome , of the same he is brought into bondage . it may be you are not generally so apprehensive and sensible of the pretiousnesse and sweetnesse of your liberties , as of your estates ; you doe not place so much of your outward comfort and contentment in the one ▪ as in the other . the reason whereof i conceive to be partly because wee are generally borne free , and therefore take no care or paines to come by it , whereas many are borne poore , and to inherit little but what they can get by the sweat of their browes : partly because libertie is as plentifull amongst us as silver was in solomons dayes ; which was therefore little esteemed because it was as plentifull as the stones in the street , and as the wild figtrees that grew abundantly in the plaine ; there is none amongst us but is as free as another ; but there is great difference in respect of estate ; partly also , because we see few in any suffering or hard condition , we heare few cryes or complaints for want of liberty , whereas we both heare and see daily what hardship and things grievous to flesh and blood , are endured by many , both men , women and children , for want of meanes , and an outward estate . haply for these and other reasons that might be given , our liberties are not so high prised with us as matter of estate is ; but if we did judge righteous judgement ( as our saviour speakes ) or if we had but the sensible advantages and quicknings to raise our thoughts and apprehensions concerning our liberties , which wee have in reference to our estates , and which many others in the world have , in reference to liberty it selfe ; we would thinke our liberties every whit as worthy to be placed at our right hands , as our estates . i must not stand to discourse the benefit and sweetnesse of this blessing of libertie ; concerning which , many great and excellent things might be spoken . i shall onely say this , that if we lived but a while in those states , where the poore subject is yoked with an iron yoke of bondage , and bowes downe the backe , and grones under the heavy pressure of usurpation and tyrannie , as under the great turke , or in the state of persia ; yea or in france it selfe ( which is neere at hand ) and did but observe the miserable and hard termes and conditions , that by reason of such slavery and bondage they live under , then a dram of that libertie which yet we enjoy , would be as pretious to us , as a drop of could water would have beene to the rich man in hell , when he was so grievously tormented in those flames . now then this is that which i hold forth unto you in this motive to be considered of , that if ever you shall suffer the hand of the malignant partie , which is now up in rage , and great fury against you , to find their enterprise , if the day falls to be theirs , you must looke to be dealt withall in your liberty , as in your estates ; there will no partialitie be shewne by these men betweene them , they that will not spare you in your estates , neither will they favour you in your liberties : they have bands , and chaines , and fetters already prepared for your hands and feet , and irons that will enter into your soules . you must know that they are animated and acted against you , with the spirit of that fourth beast in daniel , which was unlike unto all the others , very fearefull , whose teeth was of iron , and his nayles of brasse , which devoured , brake in pieces , and stampt the rest under his feet . they are of a lordly , insolent , domineering and tyranizing spirit , sporting themselves in their cruelties , and delighting to ride over the heads of men , that they can get under them . therefore now consider ( i beseech you ) how intolerable and grievous a thing it is like to bee unto you to beare the yoke of that cruell bondage and slavery which these men have prepared for your neckes ; to live by the lawes of their lusts and pleasures , to be at their arbitterments and wills in all things , to doe and to suffer , to have and to possesse as they shall appoint and thinke meet for you ; how intollerable a condition ( i say ) this is like to prove unto you , who have beene free men and women all your dayes , and have had the disposall of your selves and of all your wayes , and of the good things that the providence of god hath cast in unto you upon your labours or otherwise . oh you will finde the change very sharpe and terrible , beyond what i am able to expresse , or your selves for the present , able to apprehend . whereas on the contrary , if you shall hold out this one impression and onset which they are now making upon you , and make good the ground you stand on against them ; you shall breake their cords in sunder , and cast their bands from you for ever ; you shall make such an intaylement of this pretious inheritance we speake of , your libertie , to your children , and childrens children , that they shall never be able to cut off . if they be but now broken , they are not like ever to make themselves whole againe : if you will be perswaded to be men of wisedome once , you may be men of comfort and peace ever after . . for your wives and children , these ( i make account ) are another part of your pretious injoyments in this world : but as for these , neither are they like to finde any better quarter in their kind from these bags of blood and basenesse , then your liberties and estates in their kind . nay as these are capable of the impressions of more of those vile affections which rage in these men , so are they like to suffer upon termes yet more grievous , even according to the utmost of their capacities in this kind : the rage of their lusts ( i meane of many of them ) is as barbarous and cruell , as the rage of their crueltie it selfe . and what measure you are to expect both in the one and in the other , in lust and crueltie towards these , your wives ( i meane ) and children ; themselves have proclaimed in your eares aloud in those patternes and examples of this kinde , which in severall places of the land , they have set for themselves to follow in their future course . i presume you have heard of divers insolencies and outrages of abomination committed by them with an high hand , such as have made both your eares to tingle in the hearing . therefore consider and weigh it well with your selves : put your hearts upon deepe and sad , and serious apprehensions of it , how grievous and heart-breaking and soule-cutting a sight it would be unto you to see the honour and chastitie of your wives , & daughters plundred by the barbarous lusts of those brutish men , who are ready to poure out their abhominable filthinesse and uncleannesse where ever they be-come , and when they have done execution upon their honours , with the lusts of uncleannesse in the front , to bring up the lusts of crueltie in the reare , to doe the like execution upon their lives and blood . assure your selves , that the divell hath the driving of them , and he will make them runne and keepe his pace , as far as ever the strength of any vilenesse and wickednesse in them will hold out . and so for your little ones that are not for their lusts : it is much to bee feared that in that respect , they will double their cruelties upon them , as you have heard ( i presume ) that their brethren in ireland , baptised into the same spirit of blood and abhomination with them , have done . oh , bow can you beare the thoughts of such a day likely to come upon you , wherein your young children shall be taken by the hand of an inhumane monster , and dashed in peeces against the stones , or torne one limbe from another , or tossed upon the point of the pike or speare . assure your selves that the day of all these astonishing things , and perhaps of things more intollerable and astonishing then these , is like to come upon you , except you will bee perswaded to redeeme it , and buy it off , at the rate of your utmost endeavours , and of all you are able to doe to prevent it , if god will vouchsafe the grace and mercy to you , to let you have it at any rate . . that honorable senate of both houses of parliament , consisting of most of the worthies of the land . ( i meane for men of their ranke and qualitie ) to whose unwearied labours , and diligence , and faithfulnesse , and zeale , and expence , under god , you and your whole nation owe your lives & liberties , both spirituall and temporall , yea estates and all your sweet enjoyments hitherto ; and in whose peace and preservation all you yet injoy , as farre as reason is able to discerne and judge , is bound up ; ( so that i may well reckon these amongst your temporall enjoyments ) these are like to perish and to be cut off by the right hand of iniquitie , if that generation of men whose bloody cruelties you both have beene heretofore , and are now againe exhorted with all your might to oppose , shall ever get the upper hand . we know it is this assembly , that have stood by you and stucke close to your liberties , and the truth and purity of that religion you professe ; that are the bulwarke and defence against the furious impressions of those wicked ones , upon you , and all that is yours ; and they know as much too , and looke upon them accordingly : they are they that have robed these beares of their whelpes , that have shaken the foundation of popery , prelacy , and prophannesse in the land ; and that are at worke upon it night and day , to make it a land of righteousnesse , which is an element that these kinde of creatures know not how to live in . and in this regard , these are the men of their rage and hatred above others ; these are the mountaines that stand in their way ; and what will they not doe , what will they not suffer to remove them , or cast them downe , and make them into a plaine ? doubtlesse they are sicke , and long for their blood , as much as ever david longed for the waters of the well of bethleem . and if they shall ever be but able to dissolve the power and proceedings of this parliament now sitting , the way will be open and ready for them , either to stave off all parliaments for the future , or ( which is of more dangerous consequence of the two ) to make them themselves : and so the sunne of the glory and peace of this nation is like to set upon it for ever . therefore now consider ( i beseech you ) of how lamentable and unsupportable a consequence it would be , if this spring should be troubled ( as solomons comparison is ) if these righteous shall fall before these wicked ones ; and cavaliers swords drinke senators blood : and how would it be a blot upon you , and make your memoriall an infamy and reproach throughout all generations , if it should be said , that you sate still and did nothing , but keepe up your mony , while these men perished at your side , who had beene a guard and safety to you and to all that you had : yea that laboured and travailed with the honours and safetie of the whole land , and were ready to cry out , and to have beene delivered , but that in the very breaking forth of the children , your covetousnesse , and your unfaithfulnesse , and remissenesse betrayed them into the hands of their enemies , who cruelly destroyed both parents and children at once . not to feede your enemie when hee hungers , or when he is thirsty , not to give him drinke , is by the holy ghost himselfe interpreted ; to be a revenging your selves on him ; and withall to be a matter of high displeasure and offence unto god . i beseech you , if not to save the life of an enemy when it is in danger , nay if not to supplie such necessities of his , which yet perhaps doe not touch his life , be a sin of that provocation in the sight of god ; what sin will that be , or by what name shall it be called , or what shall the measure of the provocation of it in the eyes of god be , when men shall suffer the greatest and faithfullest freinds they have , that for a long time together have laboured for them in the very fire night and day , in the very midst of their sore conflicts and strivings with men , and that cheifely for their sakes , to perish by the hand of their enemies , when it was in their hand and power to relieve them ? surely men must create a new name , and god will create a new punishment or hell for such a sin . . ( and lastly for matter of this worlds concernment ) what doe you thinke of your lives themselves ; if those men of blood shall carry the day , and ever come to set up their banners amongst you ? will they not be sold as cheap as sparrows were among the jewes , five for two farthings ? nay , will they not be trodden down and trampled upon like clay and mire in the streetes , by the foot of the pride , and rage , and insolency of these men ? would not your flesh be as a feast of fat things unto them , and your blood as new wine ? or if they did spare your lives , would it not be only out of a desire and intent to adde unto your miseries , to gaine opportunity of inflicting many deaths upon you ? perhaps they have learned a deliberate cruelty , from that bloody emperour nero : who when any person that was accused , and under the stroke and dint of his power ; desired of him that he might be dispatched , and put to death , was wont to make answer , non ita tecum in gratiam redii : .i. he was not yet so far friends with him , as to give him leave to die : he meant to have more satisfaction out of them , then so . so if these men give you your lives for a time , you must not looke to have them given you upon such termes , as god sometimes in common destructions gives his servants their lives : viz. for a prey , or booty : no , they will be given you only as meanes or engines wherewith to torment you . it may be they will desire to reserve and keep you aliue , to make spectators of you , of all that bloody tragedy they meane to act upon all that belongs to you , in setting your houses , and cities on fire , in taking away your goods , in offering villany to your wives , and your daughters , and then mangling and massacring them when they have done . and then when they have throughly scourged you with such scorpions as these , it is like they will deliver you into the hand of death . certaine it is , that the spirit that works in these cursed children of disobedience which are now your adversaries , lusts not onely to your temporall ruine and destruction , but to your everlasting ruine and destruction also , as farre as it knowes how to bee active in it . our saviour himselfe seemes to imply as much , matth. . . where he commands us not to feare those which kill the body : but are not able to kill the soule : as farre as they are able to goe in hatred and malice against the saints , they doe goe , they doe kill the body ( saith our saviour ) hee doth not say , feare not those that can kill the body , but , which doe , actually , frequently and from time to time , kill the body , but are not able to kill the soule ; doubtlesse intimating , that if they were able , they would kill body and soule , and all . and somewhat more plainely ( i conceive ) joh. . and i give unto them eternall life , and they shall never perish , neither shall any man plucke ( or pull ) them out of mine hand ; cleerely implying , that the divell and his instruments , wicked men , are ready to pull and tugge hard to get even his elect themselves out of his hands , out of that hand of election and grace , which hee hath layd upon them , and whereby he holds them fast . thus the story of the martyrs report , that when the popish prelates , and priests were ready to have execution done upon that faithfull servant of god john husse , they used these words , now wee commit thy soule unto the divell : and when hierom of prague , through long and grievous imprisonment grew very sicke , and ( as himselfe thought ) neere unto death , desired that hee might have a confessor ( being it seemes , consciencious this way ) the story saith , that very hardly , and with great importunitie it could bee obteyned : which shewes , that it was griefe and torment to his enemies , that hee should have any thing , that in their opinion might bee a meanes to save his soule , after hee was dead ; besides many other like streynes of the same spirit , which that story presents unto the diligent reader . now then , there being a spirit of this profound , deepe , and divellish enmitie against you , working in the bowells and inward parts of these men , to desire not onely your temporall , but eternall death also , it is none other like , but if they suspect and doubt of the strength of their arme , for the sending of you by death into hell ( as i make little question but they doe , they have no great hope of hunting your soules into the bottomlesse pit , which is reserved for their owne ) they will themselves create a hell for you , as full of torment and cruell burnings as they can make it , and cast you into it themselves before you die , and so be gotten out of their reach . so that there is nothing to bee looked for from these men but death , or that which is worse then death , a life to contribute towards the increase of the paines and sorrowes of your death : and so indeed death howsoever . therefore i beseech you consider the weight of this branch of the present motive also . will you thinke of keeping or saving your estates , to the losse or imminent danger of your lives ? shall you not keepe your money to make a goodly purchase , if you bring all these great evills and miseries upon you thereby ? though in many other cases you might make much gaine and advantage by making the divell a lier , yet it will bee your wisedome , to justifie him in that his saying ; skinne for skinne , ( or rather skinne after skinne , or , skinne upon skinne ) and all that hee hath will a man give for his life , if you have so much of men in you , as sathan your enemy supposeth ( it seemes ) that you have ) to value your lives at any such rate above all your possessions whatsoever , shew it this day , and make a fortification and bulwarke of all that you have for their defence and safetie ; solomon ( we know ) made some hundreds of targets and shields of gold : it should not be grievous to any man to sacrifice his estate , his gold and silver upon the service of his life . there is a time to keepe ( saith solomon ) and a time to spend , or to cast away , eccles. . . certainely of all other , that is no time to keepe , when a mans life lies at the stake , and is in all likelihood not to bee redeemed but by casting away . thus much for your temporall and outward injoyments , they are all involved and concerned to the utmost , in the present occasion and service , which you have beene exhorted , to promote and further with all your strength , and all your power . but secondly , it were well ( at least it were lesse to bee layd to heart , it were a matter of farre lighter moment and importance ) if your outward concernments onely , though it were even to life it selfe , were imported in that great occasion , which is now on foot , and hath beene againe and againe recommended unto you ; but behold greater things then these . your spirituall concernments also , are like to suffer , and that in a very high degree , if gog and magog prevaile , if ever you come to bee at the allowance of cavaliers , papists , and athiests , that have taken the field against you , for the things of heaven . you are like to have stones in stead of bread , and scorpions in stead of fish . those golden pipes , by which heaven and earth are ( as it were ) joyned together , and have lively communion each with other ; i meane your pure ordinances of worship , which have both the wisedome , and grace , and goodnesse of god abundantly in their frame , will be cut off , and others of lead laid in their stead ; ordinances i meane of an humane constitution and frame , whose chiefe substance , or ingredients will bee the wisedome and will , i. e. the folly and corrupt affections of men , by which , not heaven , but hell , and the world will bee joyned together , and the trade and traffique betweene both places , much quickned and advanced , ordinances which will bee ready to bee cast as dung into your faces by god , when you have beene exercised in them . you must never looke to see the goings of god in the sanctuary , as you have done , to see any more visions of life and immortalitie let downe from heaven unto you , in these houses of vision : those excellent ravishments and raptures of spirit , those takings up into the third heaven by seeing him that was greater then solomon in all his glory , will cease from you . those pure streames of the gospell will bee all bemired and soyled , when they are given unto you to drinke : yea happily and poysoned too , by the influence of the corrupt minds and judgements of those that shall give them unto you . you must looke to have the gospell turned upside downe , and to be made to stand in perfect conjunction with hell , with loosenesse , wickednesse , and prophanenesse , and in opposition to heaven , grace and holinesse ; to be made a savour of death to those that shall bee saved ; and a savour of life to those that shall perish . it will bee made to frowne upon those that are godly , and to looke cheerefully and comfortably upon loose men . so that if your soule shall lust for these sommer fruits , if you shall desire to have communion with god in communion and fellowship with his saints , if you shall desire at any time to bee rained upon by a shower of life and peace from heaven ; you must repaire againe to the woods and mountaines , or to the covert of some close and secret place , where you must eate the bread of your soules in perill of your lives ; as your forefathers did in queene maries dayes , on with danger of suffering whatever the malice and revengefull spirit of your enemies shall thinke good or can devise to inflict upon you . therefore now consider , you that have had the liberty of your sanctuaries , and of your publike assemblies , that have beene fed with hony out of the rocke , and with the finest wheate of heaven , you that have had an open and free trade to heaven , and have had glorious returnes from them day after day , to whom the ministery of the gospell , hath beene as the wings of the morning , as chariots of fire to carry you up and downe as it were in spirituall state and triumph betweene heaven and earth ; oh how will that day be as the shaddow of death unto you , wherein you must exchange your quailes and manna from heaven , for the garlike and onyons of egypt , when you shall heare the pope and his hierarchie preached up to the heavens , and jesus christ with his saints preached downe to the earth , and made to sit at their footstoole , when your soules and consciences shall bee compassed about with lies and errors and the commandements of men , in the ministery of the word , in stead of those spirituall and glorious truths , which were wont to bee as so many angels sent from the presence of god to comfort you ; doubtlesse if ever you saw the heavens opened over your heads by an effectuall and sound ministery , and jesus christ standing at the right hand of god in glory , as stephen did , if ever you smell the savor of life by jesus christ preached ; the day wherein such a ministery shall bee taken from you , will bee like the day wherein the sunne shall bee covered with sack-cloath , and the moone turned into blood , and the starres in the firmament of heaven lose their light . the change will bee every whit as sad unto you , as that was unto david , when hee was driven from the sanctuary and presence of god , and compelled to dwell in mesech , and make his habitation in the tents of kedar . if this exchange made him cry out , woe is me : you must thinke it will bee a double woe unto you , when the arke of god shall be taken from you , and dagon set up in its stead , when the dispensations and administrations of heaven , which were spirit and life , the light of gods countenance it selfe unto you , shall bee exchanged for the statutes and ordinances of rome , which are like tombes and sepulchers , having nothing in them but rottennesse and dead mens bones . if such a day were now upon you , what would you give to buy it off ? and is not the purchase of the prevention of it worth as much ? it may be there are some amongst you whose soules and consciences were never yet engaged , eyther by the puritie or power of any of the ordinances of god ; who never yet knew what it was to bee kindly touched from heaven by any spirituall administration ; to such as these it is like dagon may bee as good as the arke ; the devices and inventions of men , as beautifull , as savory , in the house and worship of god , as those ordinances themselves which have the perfect image and superscription of god upon them : a ministery that is low , and cold , and set in consort with the earth , and the things thereof ; as that which is calculated for the meridian of heaven , and breathes life and immortalitie in the faces of mens soules continually . if such as these lend but a dull or deafe eare to the motion , cannot finde so much as two mites in their estates to cast into the treasury of god , it is not much to be marveiled at . but for you that know how little the chaffe is to the wheate ; i beseech you to have this sence of the businesse recommended to you , that when you have done the utmost of what you are able to doe for the advancement of it , you would yet unfainedly desire to doe more . thirdly , to engage you yet further to give out your selves fully & freely as you have bin exhorted , you may please to consider , that as all your pretious interests , whether in the things of this life , or of that which is to come , are deepely concerned in it , so are all the like interests of all your brethren , the godly persons in the land concerned likewise . and if the cause should suffer or miscarry , it would bee as a sword that would passe through all the righteous soules throughout the land ; it would bring such a day of sorrow , lamentation , and woe upon the generation of the servants of god throughout the kingdome , as scarce hath beene heard of in all ages : it will cause all their hands to hang downe , and their knees to wax feeble , and their hearts to wither as the grasse ; it will fill all their eyes with teares , and their hearts with heavinesse : there will bee no end of those great evills and miseries which will come upon them in that day . the breach that will bee made upon them will bee like the great breaches of the sea which cannot bee repaired . it was a night of much sadnesse to the land of egypt , when god slew in every house one throughout the whole land : the text saith , there was a grievous cry throughout the whole land of egypt upon it : but this cup was given to the egyptians to drinke : and yet this stroke fell not so sore upon them neither , as the miscarriage of that great action wee speake of , would doe upon the israell of god amongst us . that did but touch the egyptians in the lives of one in every family respectively : but the stroke which is now lifted up , and likely to be given in the land , whereever it light , should it fall upon the right hand , upon the people of god , it would wound them all , and that very sore , yea and that not in some , but in all their concernments and injoyments whatsoever , as well in those which relate to this world present , as in those , whose accommodations are more peculiarly for that world which is yet to come ( as hath beene shewed already ) if ever that mountaine of prophannesse , which now you are exhorted to put to your shoulders to remove , shall be establshed , doubtlesse it will magnifie it selfe against all that is called holy in the land ; it will lie heavy and oppresse , if not overwhelme and bury under it , all that have the marke of the living god upon them . therefore i beseech you consider what you doe : if this great evill shall come upon the church and people of god amongst you , and you bee found dull and heavie , negligent and remisse in the preventing of it , and not improve your selves to the utmost that way , when as it hath beene so fully and feelingly , and frequently both represented and recommended unto you , shall you not bring the guilt of it all upon your heads ? shall you not bee looked upon both by god and men , as accessaries ( if not principalls ) in all those sore afflictions and calamities , which in this case shall fall upon them ? will not god require their sorrowes , and their teares , and their troubles , and their afflictions , and all the extremitie they shall endure at your hsnds ? when i shall say unto the wicked ( saith the lord to his prophet ezekiel ) oh wicked man , thou shalt die the death , if thou dost not speake and admonish the wicked of his way , that wicked man shall die for his iniquitie , but his blood will i require at thine hand , ezek. . if god will require the blood of a wicked man at the hand of his prophet in case he did not seeke to prevent it by admonishing him : will he not much more require the sorrowes , sighings , troubles , teares , extremities , blood of a whole nation of saints , at the hand of those by whose unfaithfulnesse , coldnesse , covetousnesse , negligence in any kind , they shall come upon them . the sonne of man ( saith our saviour ) goeth his way , as it is written of him : but woe be to that man , by whom the sonne of man is betrayed : it had beene good for that man , if he had never beene borne : in like manner the church and people of god amongst us may yet suffer grievous things , but woe bee to those , whomsoever they bee , bee they fewer , be they more , bee they rich , be they poore , by whom their peace and safety shall bee betrayed . fourthly ( and lastly ) all our owne concernments and the concernments of all our deare brethren in the faith throughout the land , are bound up in the businesse , which hath bin so frequently and affectionately recommended unto you ; so are the like concernments of others of our brethren also , partakers of like precious faith with you , in other lands and kingdoms , bound up likewise herein ; though not all ( perhaps ) in the same degree . there is a common report of a strange sympathie between hippocrate's twins , that they alwayes cried together , and laughed together . and doubtlesse there is some such simpathye betweene all the reformed churches ( as we call them ) in these parts of the world : amongst which likewise i comprehend those plantations of our brethren of this land , in america , and other westerne parts , at least betweene all that are truely faithfull and sound in that profession which they make in these churches . i doe not speake here of that inward or spirituall simpathie , which in respect of reciprocall affections and mutuall tendernesse , intercedes betweene all the true and living members of the mysticall body of christ , though never so remote asunder , but of that mutuall dependencie which the outward affaires and condition of every one hath , upon the condition of the other , so that the prosperitie and well established peace of any one , hath an influence into , and contributes more or lesse towards the like establishment of the other : as on the contrary , the shaking , trouble , ruine , or destruction of any one weakens the strength , and impaires more or lesse the securitie of all the other . so that they must needs all weepe together , and all laugh together . now then , this is that which i say and hold forth to your christian and godly considerations in this motive ; that the action wherein the church and people of god in the land are now ingaged , and which is yet depending betweene them , and their adversaries , will in the issue , close , and fall of it , bee of very remarkable concernment to all the saints of god in all those other churches mentioned ; if it falls on the right hand , it will bee the riches , strength , and increase of them ; if on the left , it will be the diminishing , shaking , and impairing of them , therefore consider i beseech you , the great weight and importance of the opportunitie that is before you , if through your zeale , and forwardnesse , and faithfulnesse to advance it , and the blessing of god upon it , your present service shall prosper , your light will be like the lightning which ( as our saviour saith ) shineth from the east even unto the west : the heate and warmth and living influence thereof , shall pierce through many kingdomes great and large , as france , germany , bohemia , hungaria , polonia , denmarke , sweden , with many others , and finde out all the children of god , and all that are friends to the kingdome of heaven , and will bee a cheering and refreshing to them : especially to your brethren in their severall plantations in farre countries ; and most of all to those in these united and neere kingdomes , scotland and ireland , it will be as a feast of fat things , and of wines well refined : and particularly to poore bleeding , dying ireland , it will be as a resurrection from death unto life . now then in-as-much as god hath set you this day , as the sunne in the firmament of heaven , from whence hee hath an opportunitie and advantage to send forth his beames , and to furnish and fill the world with his light and influence round about him ; since you have the commodiousnesse of such a standing , that you may doe good to all that is gods , i meane to all the saints in all their dispertions and quarters throughout so many kingdomes , and such a considerable part of the world as hath beene mentioned , so that you may cause them to rise up before you and call you blessed ; i beseech you doe not betray this first-borne opportunitie of heaven : looke upon it as a great and solemne invitation from god himselfe unto you , to do greater things for the world , at least for the christian world , then ever you did unto this day ; or then ever you are like to doe the second time , yea then any particular christian state ever did , or is like to doe while the world stands . god hath prepared and fitted a table for you large enough , if you will but spread and furnish it with such provisions as are under your hand , that you may feast , and give royall entertainment , to the whole houshold of faith , almost throughout the whole world at once . and shall it now seeme any great thing in our ages , or bee in the least measure grievous unto any man or woman of you , even to lavish his gold out of bagges , to bestow his whole substance to devest himselfe of all he possesseth in the world , even to his shooe latchet , to furnish and set out such an occasion as this is , like it selfe ? shall not the very conscience and comfortable remembrance of such a thing as this done with uprightnesse and simplicitie of heart by you , be a thousand times better then any superfluities of silver or of gold , or of meates , or of drinkes , or of houses , or of or of jewels , or apparell whatsoever ? nay if we shall bring povertie and nakednesse , and hunger and thirst upon our selves , to purchase and procure it , will it not bee better then an estate , then cloathing , then meates and drinkes unto us ? will it not take out the burning , and allay the bitternesse of all these ? doubtlesse the honour and conscience of the fact , will beare all the charges , and answer all the expence of it to the full . the opportunitie and occasion is so rich and glorious , that it calls to remembrance ( as sometimes the shadow doth the substance ) the great opportunitie that was before the lord jesus christ , for the salvation of the world : we know that he being rich , became poore , that the world thorough his poverty might be made rich . you have the patterne in the mount before you : see that according to your line and measure , you make all things like to it . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- jon. . . jon ▪ . * see gen. . . &c. cor. . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} et opprimetis , vel opprimite . arias mont. comprimite . jun. & trem. si enim & hostes exertos , non tantum vindices occultos , agere vellemus , deesset nobis vis numerorum & copiarum ? — externi sumus , & vestra omnia implevimus , urbes , insulas , castella , municipia , conciliabula , castra ipsa , &c. — cui bello non idonei , non prompti fuissemus , &c. tertul. apolog. cap. . sam. . ● . * revel. . . matth. . . the army harmelesse: or, a dispassionat and sober discussion of the late and present proceedings of the army, under the command of his excellencie, sir thomas fairfax. wherein the equity and unblamableness of the said proceedings are demonstratively asserted, upon undenyable principles and maximes, as well of reason, as religion. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the army harmelesse: or, a dispassionat and sober discussion of the late and present proceedings of the army, under the command of his excellencie, sir thomas fairfax. wherein the equity and unblamableness of the said proceedings are demonstratively asserted, upon undenyable principles and maximes, as well of reason, as religion. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed for john pounset, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the hand and bible, at the lower end of budge-row neere dowgate., london, : . attributed to john goodwin; "attribution uncertain; [mcalpin collection copy] bound in a volume marked 'goodwin's tracts'"--mcalpin catalogue. annotation on thomason copy: "july ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng england and wales. -- army -- early works to . great britain -- history -- civil war, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the army harmelesse: or, a dispassionat and sober discussion of the late and present proceedings of the army, under the command of his excel goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the army , harmelesse : or , a dispassionat and sober discussion of the late and present proceedings of the army , under the command of his excellencie , sir thomas fairfax . wherein the equity and unblamableness of the said proceedings are demonstratively asserted , upon undenyable principles and maximes , as well of reason , as religion . matth. . . . . but he said unto them , have yee not read what david did when he was an hungry , and they that were with him ; how hee entred into the house of god , and did eate the shew-bread , which was not lawfull for him to eat ( viz. in ordinary cases ) neither for them that were with him , but onely for the priests ? or have yee not read in the law , how that on the sabbath-daies the priests in the temple prophane the sabbath , and are blamelesse . plus togae laesêre rempublicam , quam loricae . tertul. proteus non reddit oracula , nisi alligatus . london , printed for john pounset , and are to be sold at his shop , at the signe of the hand and bible , at the lower end of budge-row neere dowgate . . the army , harmelesse . or the equity and unblamablenesse of the army under the command of his excellencie sir thomas fairfax , clearely and briefly demonstrated and asserted , as well upon grounds of reason , as religion ; with all materiall objections answered . vpon the first greeting between me and this saying , that may seeme manifestly true to one man , which to another appeares manifestly false . i was for a while , under some demurre , what i should make of it , treasure or coales ; the face , and first interview of it , promised ( me thought ) somewhat more then ordinary ; so that i presently apprehended , there was either some weight and worth of truth in it , or else some deluding notion of errour , of dangerous consequence . but upon a little recollection , and consideration had ; partly , of many serious , ( i wish there were no ground to say sad ) doings in the world ; partly , of some things which i had learned both from god and men , effectually perswading the truth of it ; i soone subscribed , and received it into the society of those unquestionable principles and maximes , which are in many cases of difficultie and obscurity unto others , the sweet , lightsome , and stable supports of my soule . i could not ( nor yet can ) imagine how it should be possible for the party of presbyterian ingagement amongst us ( at least for many of them ) to act with that 〈◊〉 and truculencie of spirit for their way , did they not conceive it to be manifestly the best & most agreeable to the word of god . nor can i , on the other hand , judge , but that the persons , who suffer in that extremity , which many do , and are like to do further , for their non-comportment with that way , conceive , and judge the same to be manifestly sinfull , and altogether ( taking the whole contexture and modell of it ) repugnant to that word . and so againe , when i consider , what the spirit of the most and onely wise-god affirmeth , saying , that a a gift doth blind the eyes [ even ] of the wise , and perverteth the words [ even ] of the righteous , ( with much more of like import ) and what knowing and considering men frequently teach , in such sentences as these . b there is nothing sound in a servile soule , nor is it worthy a man of wisdome to beleeve what such shall say . and again , c jupiter deprives men of halfe their wits or understandings , when he subjects them in a servile way , to the will and power of others ; with many other sayings of like tendencie with these ; when i consider ( i say ) the native and cleare consequences and issues of such assertions as these , wherein both god and men agree , i fully and convincingly apprehend , how , and in what cases , it is very possible , that men servile to their affections , and under the command of sinister and ignoble ends , may judge both such doctrines to be manifestly false , and such practises manifestly unjust , which unto men , who know no interests , but those that are honourable , and of a faire and full consistency with the publike good of men , seeme ( and are , according to truth ) the one manifestly sound , orthodox , and true ; the other , as manifestly righteous , and no waies trenching upon the due rights , or regular interests of any man . §. ii. though unto me , and many thousands more in the kingdome , the tenour of the present and late proceedings of the army is , not only unquestionably just , but emphatically honourable also , and worthy men whose soveraign ingagements are , to blesse the world with whatsoever is theirs , with all they are able to doe , or suffer . yet is it no offence unto me ( nor i trust unto many others , though sorrow and sadnes of heart in abundance it be unto us ) to heare and see , both the persons and actions of these deserving men persecuted , with the the tongues and pens of some others , as if the heavens had declared against them and written the iniquity both of the one , and the other , with a sun-beame . the knowledge of the cause causeth as well the offence , as admiration , of the effect to cease . say we not well ( said the unbeleeving iewes unto christ ) that thou art a samaritan and hast a devill ? a doubtles these iews were as confident of truth in these horrid imputations , which they cast upon the lord christ , as any anti-armists amongst us , of what gowne soever whether sacred or civill , can be of any such injustice or impiety in the army or proceedings thereof , whereof they accuse them both before god and men , and that after the restlesse and importune manner of the grand accuser of the brethren , night and day , b yea and presumed they had as sufficient grounds for the averrement of their charge , in the respective branches of it , as these can have to found any , or all their fiery pleas against the army upon . and yet as the disciples of christ had sufficient grounds to judge their lord and master neither a samaritan , nor a man having a devill , notwithstanding the confident charge of the iewes against him in both , and by vertue of those grounds , were no waies troubled hereat , or shaken in their faith : so may the friends of the army have ( yea and have , de facto ) grounds and reasons in abundance , in the strength and pregnancy whereof to triumph , not only over the importune confidence of him , who in his heat seems to threaten the kingdome , that as many as will not be resolved by his queries , that there is rebellion , treason , repugnancy , as well to the lawes of the land , as priviledges of parliament , and what not in the proceedings of the army , shall be stigmatized as men unworthy of their nation ; but likewise over all other colours , pretences , semblances , pleas , counter-pleas , charges , challenges , arguments , insinuations , accusations , adjurations , conjurations whatsoever , wherby the said proceedings as hitherto they have bin tempered and carried on , either have bin , or can be , impeached or defamed . and as the disciples of christ had so much the lesse cause to suspect their master for any thing charged upon him by the jewes , because his great interest ( which hee prosecured home , and with all faithfulnesse ) was to oppose them in their wayes of ignorance , pride , and blood ; so have the well-affected to the army , far lesse cause to be jealous of the innocency or integrity thereof , notwithstanding the many criminations , and sore accusations levied against it , considering the principall interest which the army drives , is to seperate between those men , who now rise up so full of indignation to oppose it , and their beloved lusts of oppression , tyranny and domination , and that in such a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or juncture of time , when they were rising up to take possession , and their hand stretched out to lay hold on the prey , making no other account but that the bitternes of all opposition and prevention had bin now past . it would be no marvell to heare an hungry lion roare , in case the prey were taken away from between his teeth . as the same son was a ben-oni , a son of sorrow to his mother ( his birth threatning and soon after effecting her death ) who was a benjamin , a son of the right hand unto his father , a who expected strength and support by him ; so is it no marvell if the same men , be sons of deepest offence unto those who are like to suffer the losse of their hopes by meanes of them , ( no lesse haply then a constructive death unto them ) and yet sons of uprightness unto others , who have cause to expect ( through the blessing of god ) light , and life , and strength , both for themselves and their nation , from their hand . and as the name ben-oni , which the mother in the bitternesse of her soule , gave unto the child we spake of , soon vanished , the child ( as it seems ) being called by this name only by his mother ; and this but for a short season neither , whereas the name of benjamin which his father gave him , continued , and was the name by which he was generally called and knowne , whilst he lived , and is to this day : in like manner , it is not to be doubted , but that also those names of dishonour , unjust , unrighteous , disobedient , rebellious , &c. by which the army is called by the party agrieved at their proceedings , will soone vanish and be forgotten ; and that those appellations of honour , valiant , wise , just , faithfull , religious , denyers of themselves , lovers of their country , &c. by which they are known and called by their friends , will stand by them , and be a memoriall to them and their proceedings , throughout all generations . §. iii. but that we may not seem only to crosse affections with their adversaries , and setup our love in termes of honour , against their hatred of them which utters it selfe in words of disparagement , we shall be willing to close and joyn issue with them in a sedate serious examination and debate of the cause it selfe , not doubting but to make it more then to appeare , that those who justifie their proceedings , doe it not so much out of interest , or affection , or out of light colourable pretences , or passionate exclamations ( such as are seldome wanting wheresoever interest and affection goe , whatsoever the cause be , especially , if reason be not at hand to protect it ) but out of cleare and solid grounds , and such considerations which have no communion with any interest , passion , or affection whatsoever , except it be with the love of evidence and truth , together with all those pleasant and desirable things , which naturally flow from these unto the world . §. iv. first then , from that great and soveraigne law , or ma●me of state , the equitie , or authority whereof ( i presume ) was never yet questioned , or opposed by any , i reason thus : if the safety of the people , be the saveraign and supreme law , whereunto all lawes , customes , priviledges , politicke constitutions , interests of princes and rulers whatsoever , ought to give place , then have the army done nothing but what is justifiable , yea , and what was their duty to doe , in the things for which they were accused by many . but the safety of the people is the soveraign and supreme law , where●●●● all lawes , &c. ergo . the minor though for the 〈…〉 of the 〈…〉 of the earth deny plainly enough in works , and many of their parasites , in the consequentials of many unsound doctrines and positions which they assert : yet because i never heard of any man that denied it face to face , we shall ( for the present ) supersede the proofe of it . the consequence in the major proposition , i argue and debate thus . the army in all they have done ( i mean , in the matter under contest ) have no waies violated or transgressed that supreme law , and consequently have not transgressed any other law subordinate to it , or depending on it ; and so are blamelesse . for in every combination or subordination , whether of persons , or of things , no inferiours , or subordinate , whether person or thing , can be injured , but that which is supream or first in either , must needs partake thereof , and suffer wrong also ; yea , the truth is , that the whole subordination , and that in every part or member of it suffers wrong , whensoever any one part or member of it so suffers : the meanest subject in a kingdome or state cannot be injured , without injury and wrong done to the prince , or supreame ruler of this state , so that if the prince be not injured , certain it is , that no subject under him suffered wrong . thus then evident it is , that if the army have done nothing in way of violation of that supream law , the safety of the people , neither have they transgressed any other . §. . that they have not transgressed that great law we speake of , is evident , because in what they did , they observed it and yeelded obedience to it , they acted for the safety of the people , what they did had a full and a clear concurrence herewith ▪ and tendency hereunto ; the safety and well being of the people of their land , was now laid upon the altar , ready to be offered up in sacrifice upon the service of some few mens lusts and interests ; upon the sight whereof they put their lives into their hand , and ingaged themselves for the rescue , what is , or reasonably may be objected against this argument , the sequell will answer . secondly , from that great law of nature , which obligeth every part or member of the body , to sympathize in taking the same care one of another , and to act according to their best interests , division , and coniunction , for the preservation and well-being of the whole , i reason thus . if the army were obliged to take care of , and to act according to their best interests for the preservation and well-being of the body of the kingdom , then are they not at all culpable for acting according to the tenour of their late and present proceedings . but certain it is that the army , as every other person and society of men in the kingdom , both were and are obliged to take care of , and to act according to their best interests , for the preservation and well-being of the body of the kingdom . therefore they are not at all culpable for acting according to the tenour of their late and present proceedings . the minor proposition in this argument also is unquestionable ; that which lies as a duty upon every particular member , corporation , or society of men in the kingdom besides , doubtlesse rests upon the same termes , and after the same manner on the army also . for what can be imagined should make the difference ? the connexion in the former proposition , this consideration avoucheth for truth . the best interest they had and that which was most , if not onely , probable to contribute any thing considerable towards the preservation of the nation , from those devouring evilis of oppression , slavery , and blood , which were now comming upon it like an armed man ; was to keep themselves in a body and posture of strength and power ; the common interest of petitioning , which was wont to operate effectually towards the healing of grievances of people with those upon whom they had cast the honour of making them their physicians , being now trodden and trampled under foot , yea cast into the fire and consumed by the physicians themselves . so that had the army bowed down their backs to a dissolution , they had devested themselves of that opportunity which both god and men had put into their hand to save their nation in a day of danger and extremity ; their disbanding ( the present {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and constitution of things in the kingdom considered ) had been a constructive surrender and delivering up of this nation into the hand of a more cruel servitude and vassalage then ever it served since it was a nation , to this day . never did a red and lowring morning with more emphaticalness of presage , portend a tempestuous day ; than the burning of the humble addresses and requests of the people , coming from their aggrieved and sorrowful souls , presage a season of tyrannie and blood , coming apace upon the land , yea even at the doors . when petitions are burnt , the petitioners are no lesse then threatned with the fire . the heathen poet said , offendunt nunquam thuro , precesque iovem ▪ with incense jove was ne'er incensed known , nor with the prayers of men bowing down . * when great men are highly offended with poor people , onely for making or acknowledging them for gods ( i mean for presenting their petitions unto them ) doth it not argue a most precipitate and unnatural inclination and disposition in them unto a micanthropie , cruelty , and blood ? if our a stronorners should descry the jovial and pleasant lustre of jupiter , exchanged into the fiery and menacing aspect of mars were it not enough to make them all turn astrologers and prophets of some portentuous and formidable disaster coming upon the world : it is the demand of an heathen , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . it water choaks men what can they drink with safety . if petitioning , which is of all applications and actions the cleerest and most innocent , and that by men to whom the petitioned , yea , and the whose kingdom also , under god , owe themselves , their lives , and beings ; yea and unto men whose present investiture and authority being interpreted , is ( in one of the main and primitive intentions of it ) to receive petitions , and gra●●e petitioners ; yea moreover , if petitioning to such men by such men , not for half their kingdoms , nor for any thing likely to strain either their 〈◊〉 , or their bounty in point of condefcention , but onely for their regular and known hire , for that bread which they had dearly bought with their sweat and bloud , and such things as the petitioned themselves acknowledged to be due unto them : i say , if petitioning on such terms , under such circumstances as these , did so far work upon the brow of the petitioned , cast them into such an extasie of indignation , as to declare to the whole world that they should look upon the petitioners as enemies to the state , unless they desisted ; what innocency , what moderation , what peaceableness , what subjection to laws , yea what tenor of actions , lives , or conversations , could either the petitioners , but especially the rest of the people of the kingdom , imagine should be able to protect them against the unnatural , inhumane , and prodigious insolencies of such men . when innocency in conjunction with soveraignty and height of merit , shal be trampled upon as clay and mire in the street , by men in power ▪ what doth it portend , but the preparing of a yoke of iron for the neck of the nation ? elian reports that in one of the states of greece , when the sheep of one nicippus brought forth a lyon , it was justly concluded that it portended a tyranny , and change of the state , from a peaceable to a bloody government : so when fair , just , and peaceable actions in inferiors , shall produce fierce , violent , and mennacing oppressions and deportments in superiors , it is a signe fully demonstrative that they are in travel with oppression , cruelty , and blood : yea and begin to cry out to be delivered . so then , there being these and many other most apparent symptomes upon the nation of a death of their liberties , and all their just rights and comforts , approching ; and withal , there being no visible , no nor probable means to prevent the coming and prevailing of this great destruction over it , but onely that interest of power and strength which yet remained in the body of the army ; in case the army had devested themselves of this interest at the instance and demand of those who demanded it , what had this ( in due construction ) bin , but the delivering of that sword out of their hands , for the smiting of the nation with violence and oppression , which both god and the nation it self ( by their trustees ) put into their hand , for the preservation and protection of it from , and against these evills ? qui non vetat , peccare , cumpossit , jubet . thirdly , from one principal branch in that covenant , which they solemnly sware and covenanted both with god and men : i further argue , if the army promised , vovved , and protested in the presence of god ( promising , vovving , and protesting herein nothing but what was lavvful ) to maintain and defend , as far as lawfully they might , vvith their lives , powers , and estates , the lavvful rights and liberties of the subject , &c. then are they not to be blamed , but honoured rather as covenant-keepers in their proceedings . but this is the case , the army did thus promise , vovv , and protest , and therein promised , vowed , and protested nothing but what was lawful . therefore not to be blamed , but rather honoured as covenant-keepers in their proceedings . the former part of the assumption is evident from the tenour of the first branch of the covenant , together with the known act of the army ( at least of the chief and greatest part of them ] in taking it . the latter part is granted by the parliament themselves , and all those , who having taken the said covenant , do not repent thereof . the consequence in the proposition is evident also upon this supposition , that the army in what they have done , have gone no further then lawfully they may , to maintaine and defend the lawful rights and liberties of the subject . the truth of this supposition is fairly demonstrable thus . that is lawful for men to do : which upon good and warrantable grounds they judge necessary to be done , for the procuring and effecting of that which by duty they stand bound and obliged to do . that the army stood bound in duty , and by the band of their covenant , to maintain and defend the lawful rights and liberties of the subject , is evident , and above all contradiction . the grounds upon which they judged it necessary to steere the course which they have hitherto held ; partly in not disbanding ; partly in impeaching some members of parliament in pursuance of their covenant , in the particulars mentioned , are these [ with their fellows ] first , they cleerly saw , and the world round about cleerly seeth , that the lawful rights and liberties of the subiect , were not onely threatned , or assaulted , but sorely wounded and endangered also , [ and consequently stood in eminent need of maintenance and defence ] havock and spoyl being made of them from day to day ; in burning their petitions , and declaring those enemies to the state , who onely petitioned , and that in a peaceable way , for what the parliament it self acknowledged to be just and equal to be granted unto them : besides the numerous arbytrarie and illegall , yea causless and reasonlesse imprisonments of the persons , sequestrations of the estates , and many grievous and unjust molestations otherwise , of the free-born subjects of the nation . the civil law saith ( and not without ground ) that he which hath hurt one , hath threatned many : and by the rule of proportion it may be as truly said , that they who have hurt many , have threatned all . secondly , they cleerly saw and understood , that there was no visible , nor in any degree probable means now left unto the nation , for the maintenance and defence of the said lawful rights and liberties of the subject , but onely that interest which was vested in them , being yet an armie , and an united body . the prevailing party of those men , who ex officio and according to the ducture and engagement of the great trust reposed in them , should have asserted these rights and liberties , had turned head upon their trust , and judgement into wormwood ; and had not only laid their foundations ; but being active in their way , made no smal progress in building up themselves and their own exorbitant greatness , in the ruines of the rights and liberties of the people , ( as hath been shewed ) yea , by the lawless law of prerogative and priviledge conspiring together , had now the fee-simple of those places , and that power setled upon them ; by the advantage of which , they might have done not onely what they pleased ( and what this is , and was like to be , they have resolved us without putting it to the question , by their actions ) but whilest they pleased also ; and this without any bridle of fear in their lipps of being countable unto any for whatsoever they should doe . so that now the army was the onely spes gregis , the sole hope of recovery , under god , to the drooping and dying freedoms of this nation . the army could not but apprehend , that had they willingly walked after the commandment of those , who required their disbanding , and not stood fast by their interest of union and power ( at least for a season ) they had been like water spilt upon the ground ; or ( in the prophets comparison ) like unto a potters vessel , so broken in pieces , that there vvould not have been found in the bursting of it , a sheard to take fire from the harth , or to take water withal out of the pit . * they had been wholy unusefull and unserviceable to that great interest of the nation , the maintenance and defence of the lavvful rights and liberties of the inhabitants thereof : and so had deprived the kingdom of all hope ( yea and possibility in an ordinary way ) of receiving their dead ( liberties ) raised to life again ; * the soft breathing of which hope , is now of more value and refreshing to the nation , then all the silver and gold that is in it , and all the treasure besides . fourthly , it is no whit less then evident , that they who made tryal of a pretended or imaginary right to dissolve and scatter a reall power , in the disbanding of the army , ( for no person nor persons of what capacity soever , have any power , either to act , or to enjoyn any thing destructive to the lawful rights of any man , much less of a kingdom ) no waies intended to ease the nation of the burthen of an army ; but onely to cast down and make a plain of that mountain of men which stood in their way , and obstructed their passage to that lordly paradise of a perpetual and unaccountable domination , the figure whereof they had taken up and committed folly with in their imaginations . as for the nation , the case is plain enough , that their intent was , to take off the weight of the little finger of the army , that they might gain an opportunity instead thereof , to lay the weight of their owne loynes upon it . fiftly , ( and lastly for the impeaching of the members ) supposing their guiltinesse , or be it but a strong presumption of truth , in those high mis-demeanours , which are now charged upon them ( beneath which their greatest friends ( i presume ) and confederates cannot favour ▪ them ) the army had reason in aboundance to lift up their hand to this expedient also . because first , had not this salt been cast into the parliamentary fountain , the bitter waters thereof could not have been healed ; nor reduced to any such sweetness , that the families of the kingdome might with comfort and safety drink of them . it was no waies likely that ever this fountaine would have purged or clarified it self , as naturall fountains being royled and muddy , sometimes do : because the mudde and filth that was in it , was in so great a quantity , and so compacted withal , that the vent or issue , through which , being open , the fresh waters successively springing and rising up , should have wrought the cure , was hereby obdurated , damm'd , and quite stopt up . secondly ▪ there was none other hand in the kingdom , but onely the valiant and dreadlesse hand of the army , that probably durst , or however , could with that authority or hopefulnesse of successe , lift up it self to so great and honourable an attempt as this . he had need of the strength and courage of sampson , that shall take a lyon by the beard . and to say to a junto of parliamentary grandees , ye are wicked ; requires an army at least in the reere . now whether the grounds mentioned be not fully warrantable and sufficient for the army , to judge that course which they have steered , necessary for the performance of that great duty , the maintenance and defence of the lawfvll rights and liberties of the svbject , which by solemne vow and covenant , they stood bound to perform ▪ and consequently whether justifiable and lawful , i leave to the judgements and consciences of their greatest adversaries to consider ; and upon consideration , either to build them up by an ingenuous and free subscription , or by a cleer and solid refutation , to cast them down . that which is , or indeede can be objected against the premises is of little value , and very opportune for satisfaction . . the army with their proceedings , are burthened with disobedience to authority , and resistance against the higher powers , in refusing to disband , upon an ordinance of parliament , i answer . . the army did not , neither yet doth absolutely refuse to disband , and that in submission to parliamentary authority . they onely desired , that their disbanding might be respited for a time ; and have humbly offered their grounds and reasons of this their request , unto the parliament . a servant is not therefore unfaithfull or disobedient to his mr. if now and then upon occasion , and due consideration had of the nature , or consequence of some command which he shall receive from him , he shall for a while suspend his obedience , and submissively debate with his mr. either the equity or expediency of his command , especially in order to his own affaires . ioab was never charged by any man with dissobedience unto david , though a king , and that of divine designation , and this in an extraordinary way too , because he did not presently upon his command , and without dispute , go and number israel and judah , the scripture is playne , that ioab did argue and reason the case with his lord and mr. the king , before he would submit to his command : and how happy a thing it had been both for the king himselfe , and his kingdome , if this command of his had never been obeyed , the sequel of the story sufficiently manifests . . neither is all disobedience to superiours , or men in authority , a disobedience to authority , or to that higher power , wherewith such persons are lawfully invested , the lusts or arbitrary desires or wills of men in authority , are no part of their authority ; for certaine it is , that neither god , nor men ever gave unto rulers , or men in authority , any authority or power to do whatever they list ; but onely that which upon good grounds they judge to be just , and expedient for the weale and safety of the people under them , so that it no way followes that because the army hath not obeyed the persons of men sitting in parliament , and invested with parliamentary power , therefore they have not obeyed parliamentary authority . though , shadrach , meshach , and abe dnego , changed the kings word , or command , b refused to obey it , yet did not they resist his authority , or if they did , the king himselfe soone after blessed god for it . . there are many commandements of god himselfe though unquestionably lawfull and good ( for such are all his commands ) a non-performance whereof notwithstanding in some cases is very lawfull , and free from offence . it was a just and righteous command of god that aaron and his sonnes onely , and not strangers should eat of the holy things c and particularly of the shewbread ; yet david and his men , though they were none of aarons sons , in a case of necessity , eating of this bread , are acquitted by our saviour himselfe , from sin in so doing , in like manner the command or law concerning the strict observation of the sabbath , was a just and holy and good law : yet christ himselfe out of the law , pronounceth the priests blamelesse , though prophaining the sabbath , though they did that which was contrary to the letter of the command concerning the sabbath , as it related unto , and obliged the generality of men . so then , if the commands of god which are unquestionably just , holy , and good , and of universall expediency unto men , yet as occasion and circumstance may be , may very lawfully , and without the least touch of sin be transgressed , much more may the commands of men , especially such commands , the equity and expediencie whereof for publike good are very dubitable , upon just occasion , and in due order to some important good , be disobeyed , not onely without such height , and heighnousnesse of guilt , as the passionate , but withall rediculous exclamations of many import to be contracted to the army ; but without any touch or tincture of guilt at all . . and lastly , as the saying is that there is no generall rule but hath its exception , one or more ; so there is no ordinary or standing law , but must give place , and yeeld obedience to that law , which is the law of lawes , the law of necessity ; when this speaketh , it is like a king upon his throne , against whom there is no rising up ; all other lawes must keepe silence before it , and bow downe to it as their soveraigne . it is true , this law when it speaketh , commonly troubleth the world ; by turning the accustomed and setled course of things in it upside downe . the voice of it somtimes is like the roaring of a lyon , which maketh the beasts in the wildernesse to tremble , but herein it maketh some kind of recompence , it troubleth not the world often , it but seldome interposeth , to the prejudice , or non-observance of standing lawes ; yea and when it doth interpose , the rule and kingdome of it soone hath an end : like to the tempestuous winds , which ( as some mariners have observed ) sometimes blow upon the coasts of the island brava , whose onely prayse it is , that they continue not above an houre , but within this time they commonly change all the points of the compasse . necessity ( saith luther ) takes away and overturnes all lawes ; yea it hath no band or tye of any law or lawes upon it . and such sayings as these . necessity takes away the law , necessity brings a priviledge with it , &c. are very common in the civill law . and though the jews , especially in their doctrinalls , were very strict and rigid for the observation of their sabbath , yet it is a knowne rule amongst them , that periculum , vitae pellit sabbathum , . danger of life drives away the sabbath . but the saying of iunius a late learned divine , is very memorable to this purpose . this ( saith he ) belongeth to comōn law & equity , that unto extraordinary evils , extraordinary remedies must also be applyed . it were easie to multiply both rules & examples , out of the best approved authors , to justifie the doing of many things in cases of necessity , which out of such cases are unlawfull , as being contrary to ordinary lawes , and standing rules . so then , the law and command concerning obedience to magistrates and rulers , being an ordinary and standing law ; it is , and ought to be subject to the law of necessity , neither ought any man , or any society of men in or for his obedience to this to be judged culpable , or any wayes delinquent , though it be with disobedience to that other . therefore it no wayes followes . the army have disobeyed the commands of their superiours , therefore they are not censureable as evill doers . but secondly , it is like it will here be yet further objected and said . yea but who shall judge of a case of necessity ? if inferiours and they that are under government , and ought to obey shall be allowed to judge , and to determine of cases of necessity , it is like , that whenever the commands of their superiours do not please them , or suit with their ends or desiers they will pretend and plead necessity in way of barre to their obedience and so the ordinance and law of maiestracy , will upon the matter be made void , and of no effect , and then a chaos and confusion of anarchywil soon overspread the world . in the present case , the patliament who is the most competent judge , if not the only judge of a case necessity especiallyin order to the publike good and wellfare of the estate and kingdome , did not apprehend any necessitie at all . for the army to deny their obedience and subiection to their ordinance and command for disbanding ; and is it lawfull for inferiours , and by name for the army to oppose the judgment of the supreame iudicatory of the kingdom , espesially in a case of such a referrence and import as that ? to this also i answer . . in generall . . in particular . first , for cases of necessity they are for the most part very easie to be judged and discerned , mens senses usually informing their understandings when they fall . when david and his men were an hungry , and saw no possibility of being supplyed , or relived otherwise ( suppose them all persons of far lesse understanding then they were ) they were and had been ( ever under such a supposition ) the most competent , and best quallified judges in the world of that case of necessity which was now in upon them , viz. to do that in eating the show-bread which in other cases was not lawfull for them to do . by the way , this instance concerning david , and his men , being made a booke ▪ case by christ himselfe , cleerly proveth that extremity of hunger , is a reall and authorised case of necessity ; and consequently priviledgeth those that are under it , whilst it continueth upon them , from subjection to such lawes , which oppose the reliefe of it , and whereunto they are , and ought to be subject , at all other times . and if hunger , though but of one or of a small number of men , be warranted by christ , for a case of necessity , and as a dispensation from an ordinary and standing law ; much more are the like , and especially greater concernments of greater numbers of men , to passe in our judgments for cases of like nature name and import . secondly , though some may pretend and plead a case of necessity where none is , to exempt themselves from some lawes or commands , which they have no mind to be subject unto ( who are justly punishable upon sufficient evidence of their dissimulation ) yet this is no competent ground or motive to deny a lawfullnesse of power unto mea in generall , to judge of such cases of necessity , whereof they are capable by principles of common sence , and ordinary understanding . though many are hipocrites in religion , and professe they beleeve in god , when they doe nothing lesse , yet this is no reason to interdict any man , either the triall or judging of his faith , or the profession of it . when indeed he hath it and doth beleive . . though men in places civill iudicature and magistracy be ordinarilyand in the generall the most competent judges of such cases of necessity which are of publick interest and concernment : yet first , considering what was said towards the begining viz. that a guift ( and consequently any thing of like influence and operation upon the heart of men ▪ as vehement desiers , and hopes of irregular & undue injoynments in anykind &c ) blinds the eyes of the wise , and pervert the words of the righteous ; . the richly testified & long approved integrity of others , who though ( haply ) not vested in any place of civill authority , yet are men of sound judgment and ofexecellent abilities to discern in many cases the dijudication of such an interest we speak of , as farr more competent and proper for some private men , then for those that are above them in authoritie and power . when a man not suffsiently acquainted with the way . which he is to travaile , shall hier , and take a guide along with him ▪ who knowes the way , to direct him , though in this case it be ordinarily more regular and rationall , for such a man to follow his guide , and to be directed by him ; yet in case his guide fals blind by the way , he is fitter from thence forth to be his own guide , and to follow the dictates of his own eyes and judgement , then to be led along , haply into ditches and precipices by a blind man , or suppose a wise and discret woman , should joyne her selfe in marriage to a man of worth , and considerable ability : though it were most agreeable to the will and law of god , and to the principles of naturall order and reason , that this woman should obey and be subject to the councells and directions of such an husband , whilst god shall please to keep him sound in his intellectuals ; yet in case god shall take of the chariot wheeles of this mans reason and understanding and smite him with ● phrensie or madnesse , in this case , it is more meete that the husband though naturally the head , should follow the councell and directions of the woman , though more generally the weaker vessell , then that the woman being discreet and sober , should be dispesed off , or concluded by the will or commands of the man . it is a true observation and saying of bazil , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : ( lib. d spiritu fancto cap. . ) that is according to the order and course of nature , that which is wise or prudent is to order , and rule . so that in case a person , one , or more advanced to the place of magistracy and civill power , at first judged upright , and capable of the things appertaining to his place ▪ and to the publique good by those who advanced him , shall in time so farr degenerate , and become unlike himself , that either by bribery , covetousnesse , ambition and impotency of desire of arbitrary domination , or the like , he suffers his eyes to be blinded , and looseth his habit or principle of discerning matters of publick concernment : in such a case privat men , yea the generallity of men are more competent judges of their common concernment then he , and as the lord christ in that saying , if the blind lead the blind , they shall both fall into the ditch . * gave men a piercing item in their spirituall affaires , to seeke for eyes of their own wherewith to find out themselves , and to be able to judge of the waies of life , upon a supposall that their leaders would sometimes , if not very frequently , prove blind , in which case , unlesse themselves had eyes to see , and should walke accordingly , they would certainly perish for ever : so is it in mens temporall and civill affaires proportionably : if the blindlead the blind . if blind magistrates shall lead a blind people , or a seeing people , ( for there is no difference in case the one be led aswell as the other by the blind ) if the people ▪ ( i say ) whether blind or seeing shall subject themselves without due examination and triall , to whatsoever their blind rulers , whether in pretence , or in reality of intention ( for their is no difference in the case we speak of ) shall command them to do in order to their peace ; they run an iminent hazard of falling into the politicall ditch of externall misery and ruin . nor is their much question to be made , but that men are in every whit as much danger of being led by the blind , in their politique and civill concernment as in their spirituall : the bench and throne affoording commonly more dust to blind mens eyes , then the chaire or pulpet . but fourthly , suppose rulers and judges , should be men of integrety ( for the maine ) yea and for wisdom and vnderstanding in their appropriate affaires , men not much , lower then angels of god , yet we know the common saying humanum est errare , men have nothing more incident to them then error and mistake : and this many times in matters of very materiall consequence both to themselves and others , yea the wisest of men have their turbidaintervalla , and now and then dead flyes are found in their oyntment . david was a man after gods own heart for uprightnes and sincerity and had a very rich annointing also of the spirit of wisdome and understanding ; yet we know the time was , when he commanded , and that with much importunity and vehemency of contest , that which was of very sad consequence , both to himself and many thousands of his people : the evill tendency of which command , though himself for the present apprehended nothing of , yet was it as it seemes resented by ioab a souldier and generall of his army , who contested with him a while for a reversal of it . if then rulers and governors though men of cleerest both hearts and parts , may sometimes , through incogitancy , or weaknesse of judgment or by reason of some present over ▪ shaddowing with some corruption , temptation or the like , command such things to be done , which have a direct and cleere tendency to the puplique prejudice and dammage of that state and people who are subject unto them , and this discernable to private men who are standers by : ought not these men to judge , and speake what they see , and beleeve in these cases , yea and to charge the commandements of their rulers , rather then to obey them both to their owns prejudice , and the prejudice of many millions of men , whose wealth , and safety they stand bound in conscience with the best of their interests , and endeavours to procure . it christ doth not onely allow the generality of christians to try , examine , and judge , of the doctrines of their teachers , if they be able ; but injoynes them ( as we heard ) at the perill of their soules to vest in themselves such an ability , by which they may be able so farre to discerne and judge of their doctrines , as to determine whether or no their teachers be blind or seeing , admonishing them further if they be blind , at no hand to be led by them , for feare of falling into the ditch doubtlesse , he alloweth ( at least ) the generallity of men , a right and interest of judgeing and discerning , if they be able ( and what should hinder of being able to acquire a faculty of judging temporall and civill things , when christ himselfe supposeth them capable of obtaining an ability to judge of spirituall and heavenly things ) the politick doctrines . . the injunctions and commands of their civill rulers : and if he alloweth them to judge and determine of them , whether they be truly politique , and consistant with the publike good and safety , or no , certainely , he allowes them withall , either to obey , or disobey according as upon good grounds , they shall judge them to be . it is like it will be here replyed and demanded . yea , but by what rule shall inferiours judge of the commands of their superiours ? or by what character or marke , shall such commands which may lawfully be disobeyed , be so cleerly distinguished from such others , which are necessary to be obeyed , that the conscience of him that obeyeth not , may be secured in peace , in , and under his non-obedience ? i answer . first , the conscience of the inferiour who disobeyeth , may upon every whit as cleere , and satisfactory termes , be secured , concerning the lawfulnesse of his non-obedience , as the conscience of the superiour , concerning the lawfulnesse of his command . nay , of the two , there are more snares and temptations upon the superiours to impose unrighteous commands , then upon the inferiour to miss-judge or mistake , those which are righteous for unrighteous ▪ the superiour is in little or no danger at all ( i mean in respect of any civil punishment or sufferings , if he judgeth any command of his whatsoever unjust , refusing accordingly to obey it : yea he is in danger of suffering both from god and men in case he mis-judgeth any such command upon such termes , so that there is nothing so much danger , that the inferiour himself should mis-judge his superiours command , as that the superiour himself should mis-judge it , and so sin in the proposall of it . secondly , were it to be granted , that the inferiour who is to obey runs some hazard of mistake , when ever he judgeth and concludeth any command of his superiour to be unjust : yet , . the superiour runs the same ( or a greater ) hazard , ( as hath been said ) whensoever he judgeth that which he commandeth to be just ; so that if the possibility or a danger of a mistake , in the inferiour , be a ty or engagement upon his conscience , to forbear any act of judgement at all about the command of the superiour : the same of greater possibilitie or danger in the superiour must oblige his conscience also from imposing any command at all upon the inferiour , and consequently , all both commanding and obeying should cease from the world , and the interest of magistracy and government wholly be dissolved . . as the inferiour shall run a hazard of mistake , whensoever hee shall judge it righteous : it being every whit as difficult cleerly to determine what is righteous and just , as what is unrighteous and unjust , so that if the danger of a mistake , in judging the command of his superiour to be unjust , be an engagement upon his conscience , to forbear all such judgement , by the same rule , and upon the same ground , he should never judge any such command to bee just neither : in which case all his obedience must needs be sinfull , as not being performed in faith : . out of a knowledge or wel-grounded perswasion of the lawfulnesse of it . but . evident it is , that in some cases there is no danger at all , no hazard run , in judgeing the commands of superiours , unlawfull : no not when the superiours themselves shall be most confident of the lawfulnesse of them : shadrach , meshach and abednigo ran no danger of a mistake , when they judged the command of king nebuchad-nezar , for the worshiping of his golden image , to be unlawfull and unjust : and yet the king himself ( as appears by the story ) yea and all his nobles , were violently confident of the equitie and justnesse of it . nor did daniel run hazard of a mistake , when hee judged the command of darius his prince and councellours , that no man for thirty dayes should ask any petitions of any god , or man , but of the king only , to bee unjust : though it is no wayes like , but that at least the major part of them , judged it very reasonable and just . that mixt assembly of rulers and priests ( act. . . . ) were confident more then enough , that they did well , in commanding peter and iohn , to preach no more in christs name , ( vers. . . ) yet the men ran no hazard at all of mistake in refusing to obey it , as unjust . so by the way , it no wayes followes . the parliament it selfe , ( at least the major part of it ▪ judged their ordinance or command for the present disbanding of the army , to be just : therefore the army sinned , or ran a hazard of sinning , in refusing to obey it accordingly . but . in case the inferiour should at any time mistake , in judgeing some command of his superiour unlawfull , having conscienciously used compitent means for his due reformation , and judging of it as he doth , in the simplicity of his heart , not out of any sinister end , or respect as neglect of magistracy , &c. yet such a mistake , with the new obedience accompanying it , is a far lesse offence , much more pardonable or excusable , then either the swallowing downe of all commands whatsoever from superiours without examination , and much more then his subjection to this or any other command against judgement and conscience would be : so that though a non obedience in an inferiour upon such a mistake , as was now discribed in the command of his superiour , be not simply justifiable or lawfull , yet it is comparatively justifiable , being a far lesser sin , supposing the invinciblenesse of the errour , or mistake , by ordinary meanes , then the contrary , yea then any other department would bee mistakes upon diligence , and reasonable m●●ns conscientiously used for the prevention of them , as they are the frequent , so are they the lightest mis-carryings of the saints , and least obnoxious to the displeasure of god . . ( and lastly for these ) there are these three characters and symptomes very incident ( amongst some others ) to the commands of superiours , which being found upon them , render and declare them manifestly unjust , ( in which case the inferiour runneth little or no hazard in judging them accordingly ) first , when they are calculated and formed with a peculiar and cleere antipathy to the comforts and peace of such as are religious , and withall peaceable in that way of religion wherin they worship god . this is one character of an unjust command . it is not material in this case , whether the superiours we speak of or others void of religion , know who are religious 〈◊〉 . that may bee clear and manifest to religious persons themselves , which is either unknown or doubtfull , unto others . secondly , when such commands smile upon the interests of the commanders themselves , or any prevailing party or faction of them , as upon their profits , pleasures , honours , powers , &c. and withall lowre and frown upon the ease and accomodations of the comminalty of the people under them . this is another manifest character or signe of their injustice , easie enough to be discovered . thirdly , ( and lastly , ) when they have strong and pregnant conjunction , in point of conversallity , whether privative or possitive , with any such designe , whether reall , or justly suspected , which tends either to the enslaving of the generallity of the people , or to the extinguishing and defeating of their just rights and liberties ; and withall , have no connexion at all , with any imaginable benefit or good , of equall consideration unto the people . this also is a pregnant character of iniustice in such commands . suppose there be no such designe as wee speake of really intended , as for the enslaving of a free people ( or their liberties ) yet if there bee any strong presumption ( much more i● many ) that there is indeed such a designe intended , so that there is a great jealousy and feare of such a thing , generally fallen upon the people , yet in this case , for superiours , especially those who are most suspected for contrivers and drivers on of such a designe , to command such a thing , which hath a palpable and notorious consistency , with such a designe in case it be intended , and withall but a faint and slender connexion , especially if none at all , with any proportionable benefit unto the people , is at least even in the best and most innocent tendency of it , to torment the people with fears and jealousy , which is uniust for these to do , whose interest of duty is , to be nurfing fathers unto them : and though there be no demonstrative , or logick sentence , that such or such a command as we speak of , comming from a person , one or more suspected , of the designe specified ; hath a reall coniunction with such a reall designe , yet if there be a politicall or morall certainty , which stands in strength and pregnancy of probability and presumption , this is sufficient to cleare and justifie , as well the iudgement , as the practice of those ; who iudging the said command to be unlawfull and uniust , shall accordingly yeeld obedience to it . it is well observed by aristotle , that a considering man ought onely to require and bee content with such arguments and proofs , as the nature of the subiect under consideration , whatsoever it be , will bear and admit . from mathematitians we may expect close and exact demonstrations , because the subiect of this science will beare it ; but from oratours , or men handling politicall , and morall matters , we ought to bee satisfied with probabilities , and topique arguments ; because the nature of such subiects as these , will not admit of regular and perfect demonstrations . suppose a person , one or more , have a reall intention to destroy or enslave a nation ? it is not lightly possible for any other man possitively and with a mathematical evidence , or certainty of knowledge to affirm it , untill it be effected , and then it is too late to prevent it . therefore when there is a grand probability before us , a result of many circumstances , strongly inducing a beleef of such an intention , it is sufficient to build any such practice or engagement upon , which is necessary for the prevention of it . thus in generall for answer to the main obiection and demand last propounded . for the particular i shall need to add little , all circumstances relating hereunto , being generally known unto this kingdom . the command for the dis-banding of the army , being contrived and procured by , and comming from such persons ( though haply in coniunction with others ) who are strongly , and upon grounds wel-nigh irresistable , suspected of a machievation or designe destructive to the peace , lawfull rights and liberties of the kingdom ; and moreover , the said command notoriously comporting with such a designe as directly tending to breake in sander that bar of iron which only obstructed the birth and execution of it ; and yet farther , having no complyance at all with my considerable or proportionable good unto the nation : and yet more , being so exactly bent against , and level'd at the faces of such as are really conscientious and religiously peaceable in the land ; to whom the army by reason of their union and power , were a little sanctuary , and as that shaddow of a rock in a weary land . these things laid together , and duly considered cannot in the eye of any reasonable or dis-ingaged man but abundantly , and with honour acquit and vindicate the army in what they have done , though ten thousand angry and impertinent querents more , should be levied against them , to attempt the avilement and abasement of those to whom the god of heaven hath said , be ye honourable amongst men . as for that which is wont to bee objected , touching breach of priviledge of parliament , it is of no consideration or comparison with the objections already answered ; and besides , there is abundantly sufficient in the premisses , to cut the sinewes of any such objection . though priviledge of parliament , really such , and not simply but truely so called , bee truely honourable and little lesse then the light , and life , and strength of the freedom of the nation : yea , no man as yet hath , nor whilest i live shall take away this crowne from my head , of beeing cordially zealous in the defence and maintainance of them ; yet are they not of equall consideration with the holy lawes , and righteous commands of god . therefore if these may , and ought notwithstanding the jealousy of god over them , sometimes want that obedience and subjection from men , which in ordinary cases is most due unto them , much more ought the priviledge of parliament , notwithstanding any soveraignty of great 〈◊〉 in them , how downe at the feer of that soveraigne and supreame law , 〈◊〉 solus populi , the safety of the people , which certainly is above all parliaments and parliament priviledge whatsoever . yea , it is a truth unquestionable , that nothing that it sinfull , nothing that is inconsistent with the honour , peace , safety , just rights or liberties of the people , can for ever be , or make a priviledge of parliament . and whilest men act in a due and cl●er concurrence with this great law , the safetye of the people unpossible it is that they should intrench or make the least breach upon any priviledge of parliament whatsoever . and whether the army have thus acted or no , i am freely willing to leave to the judgements and consciences of all those who have diligently read , duly considered , and retain in memory what hath been argued in their behalf in their papers , to judge and determine . there may be ( i confesse ) some other things of lighter moment objected against their proceedings ▪ unto which , though these have not been given an answer in the letter , yet confident i am ▪ that there is none of them all able to stand before that spirit that hath spoken , and yet speaketh in the premisses . the god of all grace and glory , continue the parliament in a full and peaceable inioyment of all their priviledges and honour ; make streight that which is croocked , sweet that which is bitter , righteous that which is unjust , peaceable that which is troublesome , holy that which is profane amongst them ; leaving nothing in their assembly that may offend either the eyes of his own glory , or the mindes of the sober and wel-affected people of the land . the same ever blessed god , who is the lord of hosts , vouchsafe still to delight in that army in which he hath greatly delighted hitherto , and out of the midst whereof he hath looked , as sometimes he did out of the cloudy and fiery pillar , when he took off the chariot wheeles of the egyptians , and caused them to drive heavily : whilest they were in hot pursuit of his people israel , direct them in all their counsels , give them a pattern from the mount , to make and forme all their proceedings by ; keep them in righteousnesse , peace , and honour , and make them an happy band in his hand to binde up a scattered and undigested nation , which scarce knowes where to finde a right end of it self , into a compacted and well made up bundle of love , unity , and peace . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- eadem poss●●t alteri manifeste vera , quae alteri videntur , manifeste falsa . a deut. . . b {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . plato c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . hom. a ich. . . b rev. . ▪ see the eight queries , and the nine , and nine more added to them , lately published . a gen. . . salus populi suprema lex . § ▪ cer. . . * qui duro ducit vivos è marmore vultus , non facit ille de●s : qui rogat , ille facit . vvho out of marble living faces maketh , makes yet no gods ; but he that supplicateth . isa. . . heb. . b dan. . . . c exod. . . . levit. . mat. . . necessity is by the iewes called lex horae . the law of an houre and by others lex temporis the law of the times . davevant detrem . p. . necessitas enim tollit , & evertit omnes leges : mio nulla habet legum vinculae luth . t. . wittenb . p. . necessitas tollit legem necessitas inducit privi legium . &c. * matt. . . cretensis: or a briefe answer to an ulcerous treatise, lately published by mr thomas edvvards, intituled gangræna: calculated for the meridian of such passages in the said treatise, which relate to mr. john goodwin; but may without any sensible error indifferently serve for the whole tract. wherein some of the best means for the cure of the said dangerous ulcer, called gangræna, and to prevent the spreading of it to the danger of the precious soules of men, are clearly opened, and effectually applied; / by the said john goodvvin, a well-willer to the saints, in the work and patience of jesus christ. published according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) cretensis: or a briefe answer to an ulcerous treatise, lately published by mr thomas edvvards, intituled gangræna: calculated for the meridian of such passages in the said treatise, which relate to mr. john goodwin; but may without any sensible error indifferently serve for the whole tract. wherein some of the best means for the cure of the said dangerous ulcer, called gangræna, and to prevent the spreading of it to the danger of the precious soules of men, are clearly opened, and effectually applied; / by the said john goodvvin, a well-willer to the saints, in the work and patience of jesus christ. published according to order. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed by m.s. for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head alley., london, : . a reply to: edward, thomas. gangraena. annotation on thomason copy: "march: "; the second in imprint date crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng edwards, thomas, - . -- gangraena -- early works to . church of england -- controversial literature -- early works to . puritans -- england -- early works to . great britain -- church history -- th century. a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no cretensis: or a briefe answer to an ulcerous treatise, lately published by mr thomas edvvards, intituled gangræna:: calculated for the meri goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - david karczynski sampled and proofread - david karczynski text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion cretensis : or a briefe answer to an ulcerous treatise , lately published by mr thomas edvvards , intituled , gangraena : calculated for the meridian of such passages in the said treatise , which relate to mr john goodwin ; but may without any sensible error indifferently serve for the whole tract . wherein some of the best means for the cure of the said dangerous ulcer , called gangraena , and to prevent the spreading of it to the danger of the precious soules of men , are clearly opened , and effectually applied ; by the said john goodvvin , a well-willer to the saints , in the work and patience of jesus christ . the cretians are alwayes liers , evill beasts , &c. this witnesse is true : wherefore rebuke them sharply ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , cuttingly ) that they may be sound in the faith , tit. . , . and i heard a lowd voice saying in heaven , now is come salvation and strength and the kingdome of our god , and the power of his christ ; for the accvser of ovr brethren is cast downe , &c. revel. . . let not an evill-speaker be established on earth : evill shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him , psal. . . but they shall proceed no further ; for their folly shall be manifest unto all men , as theirs also was , tim. . . qui ergo bene mentitur , & absque ullâ verecundiâ , quicquid in buccam venerit , confingit in fratres , magistrum se optimum probat ▪ hieronymus . l. . apol. adversus ruffin . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . musaeus . published according to order . london , printed by m. s. for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head alley . . cretensis ; or a briefe ansvver to an ulcerous treatise , lately published by mr thomas edwards , intituled , gangraena . behold ( saith the lord christ to peter ) satan hath desired you , that he may sift you as wheat a . men use to sift wheat more carefully and thoroughly , then other graine . the reason is , because it being the purest and richest of all graine , a little beggery or soyle left in it , is so much the greater eye-sore , whilst it is yet in the heap , or hand ; and besides any mixture of drosse being ground with wheat , is ( for the same reason ) the more offensive in taste , when bread comes to be made of it . so that our saviours meaning in the recited passage is ; that the devill hath a very great desire to obtaine leave from god of sifting the saints thoroughly , i. by libertie of temptation to try them to the uttermost , what may be gotten out of them by way of weakness and corruption ; not indeed to make them the more pure , ( though this be gods designe in the permission ) but to render them the more sinfull and polluted , and to abate and pull downe their high interests both with god and man . the author of the late treatise , knowne by the marke of a gangrene or cancer in the forehead of it , being ( as it seems ) of satans counsell , and partaker of his intentions against the saints , hath diligently swept his floore , and gathered together his siftings , all that drosse and beggery of weaknesses and infirmities , which satan within the compasse of foure yeares ( by his own confession ) was able to sift out of them , and he to come to the knowledge of ; and hath ground , kneaded , and bak't it , and made shew-bread of it , for such of the presbyterian sons of levi , and their retinue , to eat , as are of his own dyet and constitution . but ( doubtlesse ) the man suffers losse in his designe , upon the same terms , and by the same occasion , upon which his grand tutor many times suffers the like also in his ; who , though his subtiltie and industry to promote his kingdome , be very great and formidable , yet is ever and anon befool'd by his malice , which is predominant , and magnifies it selfe above them both . this still importunes him for present action against the saints , and suffers him not to preconsider , whether the winning of the rests , be not like to lose him the race . so ( doubtlesse ) mr edw. being overcome , even to an intoxication , with the sweetnesse of his end , the defamation of his poore innocent helpless brethren , sirnamed ( by himselfe and many others , who of late have acted themselves into a far deeper merit of the name , and that in the worst sense & construction of the word ) independents ; had not his prudentials free , to consider , whether the course which he hath steer'd to drown them in the black sea of infamy and reproofe , be not more like to carry them into the faire havens of honour . for he that chargeth his enemy , whose reputation in every kinde he sets himself to tread and trample under foot , like clay and mire in the streets , onely with such and such crimes ; he doth not so much charge him with these , as acquit and discharge him from all others . there is no reasonable man , but will abate and deduct , and that to a good proportion , from such reckonings and accounts , which are drawne up and given in to him by the hand of envie : much lesse will he judge such accounts short , or defective in particulars . so that whereas mr edw. conceits , that he hath now in his gangraena inform'd the world , how bad and vile these sectaries and independents are ; the truth is , that he hath done this but faintly , and with the extreame hazard of his own reputation ; but he hath justified and acquitted them with an high hand from all other crimes and imputations of any worse resentment or import , then those wherewith he asperseth them ; and consequently , hath represented them unto the world as better and far more deserving , then far the greatest part of his own presbyterian generation . for first , as to matter of practise , look of what crimes or miscarriages soever , he hath with any truth , impeached those men , of his indignation ; i here ( in his own phrase elswhere a ) cast the glove to him , that if he will accept of the challenge , i will produce both as many for number , as foule ( yea far more foule ) for nature , perpetrated and done by a far lesse number of his classique proselytes , then they are , amongst whom he pretends to find so many things of such portentuous demerit . yea and that i will give another manner of account of the realitie and truth of what i bring upon the stage in this kinde , then he hath done , or ever will be able to doe , of a very considerable part of those things , which his gangred pen hath uttered against his sectaries . and secondly , for matter of opinion ; i cast my glove unto him the second time , that i will doe the like . . that i will discover and find out as many errors and heresies , and those of every whit as dangerous an import , as those which he pretends ( or at least is able to prove ) to be at this day extant among those who by the authoritie ( or passion rather and precipitancy ) of his pen are voted sectaries , in a far lesser number of his classique party ; onely upon condition , that he shall undertake to perswade those , amongst whom i shall undertake to make this discovery , to answer , and give an account unto me what their judgements are , in all such points and questions , which i shall propose to them . yea whereas he makes such a tragicall outcry , that there should be errors and heresies amongst us , as if he were afraid that he should lose his presbyterian religion in the crowd ; i verily believe ( and not without ground ) that if he would vouchsafe but freely and candidly to declare his minde and judgement , in all such points , as i would tender unto him , and not professe that scepticisme himselfe , which he so much abhorres in others , i could make a discovery of as many ( errors and heresies together i meane ) in himselfe alone . nor doe i judge , that the most orthodox presbyterian under heaven ( no nor independent neither ) erres much beneath the like rate or number of errors and mistakes in matters of religion . and suppose the man were reliev'd with this supposition ( cujus tamen contrarium verum est , as will be attested by many authentique witnesses ) that all the tales he tells to make that crowne of honour to languish and fade , which god hath set upon the heads of those which to him ( it seems ) are heathens and publicans , i meane sectaries and independents , were true ; yet certainly they that scattered them were more innocent then he that gathered them up , especially with so polluted an intention , as to call the world together to see the nakednesse of the saints , and to rejoyce with satan in his victories and triumphs over them . if the man had thought good to have served his god in verse as he hath done in prose , hee might have begun his work with this hexameter , fortunam satanae , & magnos cantabo triumphos . failings through infirmity , are but the footsteps of flesh and bloud : but bloudy insultations over men because of failings , bewray principalities and powers , and more , spirituall wickednesses . doubtlesse , the sinne of cham in discovering the nakednesse of his father unto his brethren , was greater then the sin of his father in being drunk : cursed be canaan , ( saith noah as a prophet ) a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren a . and so the fact of doeg the edomite in informing saul against ahimelech the priest , about what he had done for david b , was by many degrees more stigmaticall then any thing that ahimelech did . the form of those accusations which mr. edwards hath levied against his brethren , is much more inexcusable then the matter of them . nor doe we read that either cham or doeg , though sonnes of much unworthinesse , ever traded with satan for these black commodities , or compassed the earth to and fro by their eves-droppers , agents , or factors , to gather up and furnish themselves with the sinnes or infirmities of the saints ; no nor that they ever took up a report into their lips against any man , upon either the loose or malicious suggestion of others ; but onely related and informed what themselves saw with their own eyes , and that casually and without awaiting the opportunity . whether therefore the man we know , hath not comforted these sonnes of shame by doubling the spirit of their unworthinesse upon himselfe , i leave to the consideration of such men , who have not sacrificed the principles of their ingenuity upon the service of the classique cause . in publishing the failings and miscarriages of persons engaged in the profession of religion , what hath he else done but sowne the world with the seed both of blasphemy against god , contempt of his wayes , and obduration of the hearts of wicked and prophane men ? yea , he hath spread a table for satan with the shame and sorrowes of the saints , and made more joy in hell with the noyse of his gangrene going forth into the world , then that climate hath known for these many generations ; yea , he hath made belzebub himselfe drunk with the bloud of the saints , and reputation of his enemies , and hath lifted him up halfe way towards that heaven from which our saviour long since saw him falling like lightning e. besides , doe not all men know that the composition of the world it selfe , and of all the parts of it , consists ex flore & faece , of what is excellent and what is excrement ? for mr. edwards or any man to judge of independency by the miscarriages , whether in practice or opinion , of some few that ( it 's likely ) are the retrimentitious part of that way , is as if a man should make an estimate of cheapside by the chanell that runs in the midst of it , or give sentence of the holy and elect angels by what is found in sin and wickednesse in the devils . if independency hath its tens , presbytery hath its thousands of the sonnes of belial in her retinue . and if the man will deale fairly in comparing them together , hee must not set the head of the one against the taile of the other , but measure head with head , and taile with taile . all may bee true which the man chargeth upon independency , and yet independency lift up her head in worth and dignity as high above presbytery , quantum lenta solent inter viburna cupressi , as the cedar in lebanon is by the hand of nature advanc'd above the thistle in lebanon . the most accursed hypocrites that ever the earth bare , have been of the profession of christianity , and yet christianity the best of all professions . that wolves are oft found in sheeps cloathing , is so farre from being matter of disparagement unto it , that it rather commends it for the best and most innocent cloathing of all other : nor ought the sheep ( as augustine said long since ) either to lay aside his cloathing , or think the worse of it , because the wolfe sometimes puts it on to deceive by it . the angels of light are not out of love with their shining , because the ministers of satan transform themselves into their likenesse . nay , it is a glorious testimony to the outward deportment of the blessed angels , that the angels of darknesse desire to assume it , when they desire to conceale and hide themselves . the ordinary wisedome of the flesh teacheth men to take of the best to cover the worst withall . but what atonement can be made for the man and his demerit , in case he shall be found to sycophantize , to fill the world with forged cavillations and slanders against the saints ? and a great ( if not the farre greater ) part of what he hath written , bee evidenced to be not of the race or issue of the folly and weaknesse of those that are accused , but of the wisdome of the flesh , and strength of envie in the accuser , and some others , who by the mediation of the same deare interest , are both one flesh and one spirit too with him ? should not the world have cause to feare lest the sun would be ashamed , and the moon abashed at the very sight of such a monster of impiety as this ; and mourn in sackcloth over the deplorable and sad condition of men , that such things should be found with them ? yea , and to interpret the birth of it , as a signe that her dissolution approacheth , and is even at the doores ? i have neither leasure nor opportunity to search to the bottome , or sift to the bran , all that the man storieth , per se and per alios , in his gangrene ; nor doe i hold intelligence with any man to inform my self of his haltings , but i am able of mine owne knowledge to avouch the untruth of some things asserted by him : the untruth of more hath been avouched unto me by others ; and i make little question but that when all his accused ones shall have had time and opportunity to stand forth & plead their innocency , there will be very little truth found remaining in any thing reported by him , except ( haply ) in such things which are transgressions against no law . in the mean while he hath taken a pretty politick course to save the stake of his own repute , and to prevent as much as may be , the through examination of the greatest part of what his gangrene represents by way of disparagement to the independent party , by printing so many letters so full fraught with these commodities , without the names of their authors . for by this means he may put down in ink and paper , and make up letter-wise what he pleaseth , and yet no man be able to say unto him that black is his eye for so doing . if hee will affirm that such or such letters were sent unto him , or came to his hands , and withall refuse to produce the authors , or pretend reasons why hee should not name them ; well may we suspect jugling : but yet the jugler hath a citie of refuge to fly unto to save himselfe out of the hand of a detector . and to me it seems not a little strange , that mr. edwards should keep the names of his informers , who have contributed so liberally towards the same designe with himselfe , under hatches , or within the vaile ; when as he prostitutes his own name with so much confidence ( that i say not impudence ) in the frontispice of his booke . if hee judgeth it honorable in himselfe , to bee taken notice of for commander in chiefe in the classique warres against sectaries and independents ; he had no reason to hide the names of his captains , and those that served in inferior place of command under him in the same service : except he either thinks that they have been too timorous and low-spirited in the action , and in this respect is tender of their reputation , hoping they may quit themselves more like men hereafter , and then he means to bring forth their names with honour ; or else judgeth that his own interest in the glory of the atchievement , will rise the better , and bee the greater and more intire , if no man shall be looked upon , or known by name , that gave assistance to him in the work . or else thirdly , feareth lest the contents of the letters being evicted of forgery and untruth , should reflect dishonor upon the indighters , and so discourage and weaken their hand as to any further service in so laudable a cause . but the truth is , that i cannot attribute so much either to the first of these reasons , or to the second , nor yet to the third ( though this hath most in it ) as to be able to beleeve , that he suppressed his names for any other end , then to suppresse the examination of the truth of the letters . i know , that if i would borrow but a little presbyterian faith , i could with this , without any demurre or consideration at all , beleeve that all that is contained in the letters from the first to the last of them , is pure and simple truth ; and that m. edwards did very vertuously and commendably in sending away the names of the writers into a land of darknesse . but these being no fundamentals , i hope we shall be tolerated without beleeving them with our own faith . one of his apocryphall letters ( p. . ) comforts his friend , good mr. edwards ( as he stiles him ) against me , thus : but whatsoever mr. john of colemanstreet sayes , they ( the independents he means ) will be found the fighters against god . i grant , they may be so found in the presbyterian almanack , through a mistake , but in the originall , the ephemerides of heaven , they are called fighters with and for god . except the letter-man means , they will be found fighters against the god of this world , in that militia which hee hath armed against the nation and servants of the god of heaven in it . against this god in his militia , i confesse , they have fought , and ( i doubt not ) will fight still more cordially and more courageably then many anti-independent soules have done . indeed if the independents should turn turks , and betray their principles , and passe over into the tents of high presbytery , they will bee found fighters against god , as well as others . but in the mean season let mr. anonymus and his compeers know , that there is no sect of men in the land , the sonnes of high presbytery and episcopacy onely excepted , that being true to their principles , are capable of fighting against god , at least in that sense , which both gamaliel in the text , and mr. john of colemanstreet in his commentaries intends and prosecutes . nor let any man think that i breath the least aire of disparagement in the face of presbytery , by ranging episcopacy with it : in as much as mr. edwards himselfe , springs an ingagement upon presbytery to persecute the saints under the vaile of suppressing errors , from the laudable practise of her elder sister episcopacy in the same kind . in another letter of the same packet ( or packing rather , ) viz. p. . he presents the honorable and grave assembly of parliament ( for to them he dedicates his gangraena , quanta quanta est , from the one end of it to the other ) with such a painted peece of lasciviousnesse and prophanenesse , kissing together , which might probably have found acceptation and thanks , had he presented it to the company of free traders in turnbolstreet , for the beautifying of their hall : but by exhibiting it to those persons of gravity and honour , he hath traduced the modesty of their eyes and eares , and attempts no lesse then to draw them into part and fellowship with himselfe in his own reproach , by seeking to make them patrons of all the filthy , slanderous , and abominable practices of his pen . in the very front and entrance of his dedicatory unto them , he tells them that he presents them with a catalogue , or black bill : hee might have added ( in stead of what hee doth adde ) of the same nature , tendency and import with those , which the black accuser of the brethren was wont long since by his agents to present unto the heathen emperours and powers of this world , against the saints of the most high god . and whereas ( a few lines after ) he professeth that hee much feareth lest the subject matter of his catalogue may prove unto england like the bill of divorce given unto israel ; i professe also that i feare the same feare with him , in part , because a great , if not the farre greatest part , of the subject matter of his catalogue consists of defamatory untruths , forged cavillations , and bloudy insinuations against the servants of god in the land . and such practises as these in a nation , ( unlesse some speedy and effectuall course be taken to prevent them ) portend indeed little lesse then a bill of divorce from heaven to that nation . but for the errors , heresies , blasphemies , and practices of the sectaries of this time , which he makes the subject matter of his catalogue ; by that time , o all those tenets which he very erroneously makes errors and heresies , to advance his catalogue ; and o all those , which are forged in his own brain , falsly fastened upon others , no man holding or owning them : and o , all those , which it may be have fallen from the lips or pen of some one inconsiderable and halfe-distracted person , no man seconding him therein : and o all those that hee hath perverted in the setting down : o , all those that ( for substance ) are repeated the second , third , and forth time over . o , and lastly , all those blasphemies and practises , which without cause or ground of truth he chargeth upon his sectaries ; by that time ( i say ) that all these shall bee struck out of his black bill , the bill will appeare much blacker and fouler then yet ( perhaps ) it doth in the eyes of many , and so resemble the author more to the life : but the formidablenesse of the subject mattrr of his catalogue will be much eased , and the form of it bee found much more formidable then the matter . but i marvaile how mr edw. having ( it seemes ) an authorized power to make errors and heresies at what rate , and of what materialls he pleaseth , and hopes to live upon the trade , could stay his pen at so small a number as ; and did not advance to that angelicall quotient in the apocalyps , which is ten thousand times ten thousand , and thousand thousands . if he had consulted with a book , not many yeares since printed , which maintaines that dangerous heresie of the cosmoselenitae , i. of those that hold there is another world in the moone , and with another , printed within the compasse of his foure yeares , intituled , divinity and philosophy dissected and set out by a mad man , with some few others , that i shall shortly be able to name unto him ; i will undertake , that out of these he shall be able to increase his roll of errors and heresies , from , to , if not to ; and that upon more honest and honourable terms , then now he hath advanc'd it to his own number . and if he pleaseth to repaire unto me before the course of his menstruous or monethly labour comes upon him , i will undertake to inrich his treasurie of errors and heresies , by twentie and ten , out of his own antapologie . for certain i am , that every contradiction affords an error , either on the one hand , or on the other : and if i doe not find twenty and ten , and a better number then so , of birds of that feather in that element , let mr edwards pen plough as many long furrows more upon my back , as it hath done . in the meane time , i must crave leave to say ( or at least to thinke ) that it is a most importune and unsufferable presumption , for a poore , weake thimble-full of dust , that knows not how to range his parts of speech in a sentence , nor to put the nominative case and verb together regularly in english , nor how to frame the structure of a period according to the common rules of reason , grammar , and common sense ; to advance himselfe into a paper throne , and from thence , satis pro imperio & tribunali , pronounce the formidable sentence of error and heresie , against all opinions and judgements of men whatsoever , which will not comport with his understanding ( or fancie rather ) as the standard of all truth . yea and nebuchadnezzar-like , to slay and smite what opinion he pleaseth : what he will to set up , and what he will to pull downe . for i professe ingenuously , that i know not by what other rule or measure , besides his own humour and will , he judgeth of error or heresie . certaine i am , that if he will stand either to the arbitrement of the scriptures , or to the principles of cleare & sound reason , he must discharge and justifie many of those tenets for innocent , yea and well-deserving truths , which now he hath arraigned at the barre of his tribunall for errors & heresies . if his touchstone be , the major vote of his own party , i desire to recommend unto him the conscientious perusall of a passage from the pen of a conscientious and learned man of the same side , ( i hope he will not say , that he is knowne ex professo , to be of another judgement , then what he plainly expresseth in writing ; a base calumny , wherewith to honour himselfe , he dishonoureth calvin , p. . ) if dissentions and schismes ( saith musculus a ) arise in the church , they are in fault who stand up to maintaine a false faith , not they who oppose it . nor is it materiall which partie is the more numerous . for the church , neither her selfe judgeth according to the multitude , nor is shee to be judged according to the consent of the greater number , but according to the manifest truth expressed in the scriptures . if the man will but own the verdict of as learned and ingenuous a pen as ever wrote on his side , he must release the better halfe ( i beleeve ) of his prisoners , and instead of an errors and heresies , take his tables and write downe , four-score . secondly , i would know of him , whether this be a regular processe in law , to ask my fellow whether i be a thiefe . if mr edw. thinks that he ought to be reputed , and honoured as a man orthodox , till men of his owne judgement vote him erroneous ; i know no reason he hath , but to measure out the same measure unto others ; and consequently to judge no man or men erroneous or hereticall , untill they be adjudged such by those that concur in opinion with them . as for twenty and ten of those opinions , which he hath impeached of error and heresie , ( and i will not say for how many more ) i doe here cast the glove to whosoever will take it up , to bring them off with the honour of truth , from all that the man hath to lay to their charge . for i evidently see , that he hath dealt with many precious truths of god , as the jews did by christ himselfe , when they numbred him with transgressors . and particularly , for that which he hath arraign'd in the th place in his catalogue of errors , viz. that faith in a proper sense is imputed to justification , and not christs righteousnesse ; ( in the sense by me rejected ) i thinke i may with far lesse boasting say , what he saith of his abilities in the church-controversies ; i am ( saith he ) so farre vers'd in these controversies , that i challenge , &c b . so may i say without offence , that i am so far versed in the controversie about the imputation of faith & christs active obedience in justification , that i here challenge all the presbyterians one after another , assembled , or not assembled , in england , scotland , france and ireland , to prove either by the scriptures , or by dint of argument , either that faith is not imputed in a proper sense , or that the active obedience of christ , is in the formalitie of it , imputed in justification . p. . he labours to justifie the devill , only to make me appear like unto him ; for in saying , that i deal just by him , as the devil did by christ ; doth he not plainly imply , that the devill did no worse by christ , then i doe by him ? so then if it appeare , that i dealt fairly by him , and did him no wrong , in my citation of his words , then will the devill be found to be mr edwards client , and he the devills advocate , and that by the verdict of his own pen . now then whether i have wrong'd the man the least haire of his head , let the world , and the great judge himselfe of the world , judge . the case is this . in my innocencies triumph , p. . i cite these words from his antapologia , p. . the power of the magistrate by which he punisheth sinne , doth not subserve to the kingdome of christ the mediator . now to take an occasion of resembling himselfe unto christ ( which he doth more then once in his gangrene a ) and me unto the devill , he chargeth me , that citing the former part of the sentence , i leave out the latter : adding further , that had i but named this latter part , it would have been an evident confutation of me . let any sober and intelligent man , but consider , what that latter part of the sentence is , how incongruous and illcoherent with the former , and he will clearly see , that in omitting it , i rather cast a covering upon his nakednesse , then any way prejudic'd him ; unlesse ( haply ) he counts this a prejudice to him , not to have his nakednesse and weaknesse appeare to the world all over . but the latter part of the sentence he speaks of , the naming whereof would have been so evident a confutation of me , is this ; that he may apply efficaciously {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of the propheticall and priestly office of christ : he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment . where , first , it is observable , that himself , citing here so much of the latter part of the sentence , as ( it seems ) he would have had me have cited in my innocencies triumph , leaves out the latter part of this latter part it selfe , viz. these words ( distinguished onely by a comma , from the former ) neither is this instituted of god , and sanctified as the means for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of christ . so that if i have dealt by him as the devill did by christ , meerly by citing the former part of his sentence without the latter , he deales himselfe by himselfe as the devill did by christ , ( which is more unnaturall of the two ) yea he deales by himselfe , with a far more exact conformitie to the patterne he speaks of , the devils dealing by christ , then i , though his charge against me could be justified . for the devill did not leave out the latter part of the sentence which he cited , but onely the last words , or latter part of the latter part of this sentence . for mr edw. in affirming that the devill left out these words , to keep thee in all thy wayes , deales farre worse then the devill did by christ ; for the devill did not lie unto christ , though he tempted him ; but whether mr edw. doth not dash his foot against this stone , in saying the devill left out the words mentioned , let the evangelist speak ; and he brought him to jerusalem , ( saith luke ) and set him on a pinacle of the temple , and said unto him , if thou be the son of god , cast thy selfe down from hence . for it is written , he shall give his angels charge over thee , to keep thee a . so that the devill left out but part of those words which mr edw. chargeth upon him , viz. these , in all thy wayes ; which being the very last words of the sentence , it is mr edw. that hath copied out the devils delinquency to an haire ; dealt just by himselfe , as the devill did by christ , not i. but whereas other authors frequently make use of the figure synecdoche , in putting down a part for the whole ; mr edw. makes much use in his writings of a new figure , which we may call an anti-synecdoche , by putting the whole , yea and sometimes more then the whole for a part . but however , i must give him the testimony of a man impartiall between the devill and the saints ; for though he speakes falsly of these , yet he will not flatter the other with the truth . o . i would faine know , in case the former part of his sentence cited by me , be false , whether the addition of the latter would have made it true . if the power of the magistrate by which he punisheth sin , doth not subserve to the kingdome of christ the mediator ( which are the words i cite ) would the naming of the following words , that he may apply efficaciously {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. render or make it subservient thereunto ? therefore i know not how , or wherein i have trespassed either upon the man or his words in the least . if his meaning be , the whole period , former and latter part being taken together , that the power of the magistrate by which he punisheth sin , doth not subserve to the kingdome of christ the mediator , by an efficacious applying of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of the propheticall and priestly office of christ , &c. first , the grammar of the sentence will not beare it . and secondly , if it would , yet such a sense is little better then no sense ; the sentence thus taken , being of the same forme and character of speaking with this : the bread by which mr. edwards lives , doth not subserve to the maintenance of his life , by making his drinke effectuall to quench his thirst . or this : the learning by which mr. edwards confuteth the sectaries , is not subservient to their preferment by giving them houses or lands , or great rewards , &c. if there be sap , savour , or sense in either of these , then may hee have some cause to complain of wrong done unto him , in that the body of that sentence he speaks of , was not produced by me whole and intire , lower parts and upper parts together . but if the period taken together , was of the very selfe-same shape and forme with those , then was it centaure-like ; and then i did him more right then came to his share , in shewing onely the upper parts of it , wherein it was rationall , and like to a man , and concealing the nether parts of it , the discovery whereof makes it appeare like a monster , strange and uncouth to behold . the truth is , that the passage he speaks of , and over which he mourns , finding it without the taile in my citation , though he calls it a sentence , yet a sentence it is none , having neither form , feature , nor any property of a sentence in it . and in this my sentence and censure of it , i refer my selfe to all those that have but their senses exercised in discerning between sensible and senselesse sayings . notwithstanding the man ( in his preface ) is tumultuously importune for an answer to his antapologie , and calls all the speeches that have been given out by the independents cōcerning an answer to it , but meer flourishes and swelling words of vanity ; as if to talke of answering him , were a swelling word of vanity , a word of too much confidence to proceed from the mouth of a mortall man . yea , in the very first page of his preface he vapours at an insufferable rate , powring out contempt upon the poore independents ( whom hee calls dogges , making himselfe or his antapologie the moone ) as if they were not onely not able to answer it , but as if they knew not so much as which way to goe about to answer it : as if they who mean to answer him , had need to be furnished with other manner of parts , learning , knowledge , wisdome , then were any wayes requisite to answer all the seraphicall disputants in the world besides . paul himselfe ( it seems ) with some others , had given out some speeches of his coming to corinth , some while before he came . and because through occasionall diversions his journey was for some considerable time deferred , some in this church that were obnoxious , were puffed up ( it seems ) as if the bitternesse of death had been past , and paul never meant to come amongst them . some ( saith hee ) are puffed up , as though i would not come unto you a . but he cuts the comb of this their confidence in the next words , by acquainting them with his resolution in that behalfe . but ( saith he ) i will come unto you shortly , if the lord will , and will know not the words of them which are puffed up , but their power b . because an answer to his antapologie hath been so much spoken of , and through many interruptions following like the waves of the sea one in the neck of another , hath not yet been brought forth , therfore the man is so far swoln & puffed up with conceit , as if the world were not wide enough to containe him . but the answer which he calls for with so much fiercenesse of importunity , will ere long ( if the lord will ) be with him : and the world shall know , not what the words are , ( for these are big enough , & known unto the world already ) but what the power is ( or weaknesse rather ) of the antapologie . there were some sonnes of belial , and yet sonnes of confidence too , among the jewes , in the dayes of the great provocation of that nation , when the day of that soare judgement of the . yeares captivity drew neere , and was even at the doores , who ( it seems ) derided the predictions of the prophets concerning the judgement , and were so confident as to desire and call for that day of the lord , ( under which expression the prophets of the lord were wont to forewarn them of it ) as for a treasure . but what saith the prophet amos to these ? woe be to you that desire the day of the lord : to what end is it for you ? the day of the lord is darknesse , and not light c . i verily beleeve that the answer to mr. edwards antapologie , will not be for his honour : in which respect he hath no great ground to be so restlesse or importunate in calling for it ; or to insult over those , who have told him once and again , that ( if the lord will ) an answer shall be given him . whereas hee talks of his worthy peece being published . months since , he supposeth ( it seems ) that men have little or nothing to doe , but to attend the motions of his pen , and to expedite and dispatch him out of hand . indeed if independent ministers had either the priviledge of ease , to preach to the bare walls and pews in their meeting-places , or that shamelesnesse of forehead to make the subject matter of their sermons little else but loose , and lying , and frivolous reports and stories , or virulent invectives against the saints and servants of god , ( with which kind of materiall , this world , and the god of this world together , will be glad to furnish preachers at a very low rate , either of time or study , for their building ) they might ( i confesse ) be men of more expedition in writing , then they are , and be as like the tree spoken of in the revelationa , as mr edw. himselfe . it is sufficiently knowne , that since the moneths mr edwards speaks of , i have given some account unto the world , and that by publique writing , and this more then once , twice , or thrice , ( besides my constant and standing labours with those who have committed themselves unto me in the lord ) that i am not so loose , or idly dispos'd , as mr. edwards would insinuatingly perswade and possesse the world concerning me ( p. . ) and knowne also it is , though somewhat more privately , that i had given some further account in the same kind , of my time spent , ( within the said compasse of . moneths ) had not the way , by which light and truth should goe forth into the world , been hedg'd up by clergie-classique counsels , as with thornes , against me . but however , i can hardly believe , that mr edwards himselfe , notwithstanding all the advantage of libertie and freedome from other ingagements which he had above other men , tooke much lesse then . moneths time , for the building and beautifying his antapologie . and who knows not how much more easie it is , to be first in writing , or to object , then to answer ; according to the common saying in the schooles , plura porest interrogare asinus , quàm respondere aristoteles : i. an asse may soone aske more questions , then aristotle be able to answer ? in the latter part of his preface , he arms himselfe with constancie and heroique resolution , to triumph and rejoyce in what he shall suffer in way of hatred or reproach from the sectaries , for his faithfull and noble service done both to heaven and earth in opposing them ; animating and flattering himselfe in his course , with this , that in case he shall suffer in this kind , he shall ride parallel in the triumphant chariot of honour with those great worthies of the world , calvin , luther , and austine ; yea with the apostle paul himselfe ; nay , with the great lord of all the apostles & patriarchs , the lord christ himselfe , blessed for ever . see the , , and pages of his preface . but poore man ! little doth he consider , how diametrally opposite he is in his cause and course , both to christ and paul ; and how unlike those other men . was either paul or christ , of his occupation ? did they spend their time , or ingage their friends , in gathering up vagrant , loose , scandalous and lying reports against the saints , and servants of god , under the names of sectaries , to blesse the vanitie and wickednesse of the world with the venting of them ? did paul or christ , set their faces like an adamant , to inflame and set on fire the powers of this world , with hatred , bitternesse and bloudinesse of spirit , against the sons and daughters of god , though full of weaknesse , and unworthy in the highest ? or did they importune and clamour upon the secular arme , even to the wearying of it , to avenge them on their adversaries ; and little lesse then threaten those in place and authoritie , if they would not comport with them in their carnall ends and desires , and lift up their iron rod to breake their enemies in pieces like a potters vessell ? this , ( saith christ to the jewes , speaking of their murtherous attempts against him ) this did not abraham a . nor did the lord christ , or his blessed apostle any of the things mentioned : but whether mr. edw. hath done any thing else ( almost ) either in his lion , or in his beare , i mean either in his antapologie , or in his gangrene , especially in this latter , i appeale to the judgements and consciences of all , that either have , or shall please diligently to peruse them , and withall have but their wits and senses free from classique bands . when the lord christ was sollicited by some of his disciples , and that by those whom he loved best , to call for fire from heaven to consume those that would not receive him , he turn'd himself , and rebuked them , telling them that they knew not what spirit they were of . whereas mr. edwards calls and cries , might and maine , for fire from hell to destroy , not those who refuse to receive the lord christ , but such as do receive him with all their hearts , and with all their souls , onely because their faces are not instantly set to receive the traditions of his discipline and doctrine ; and yet conceits that he knows well enough of what spirit he is , making no question for conscience sake , but that it is heavenly . and for paul , we know he burnt ( viz. griefe and sorrow ) when any christian , though never so weake , was but offended : his doctrine and desire was , that supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks , be made for all men : for kings and all that are in authoritie , that wee [ christians & believers , of what judgement soever , for he excludes none ] may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie b . but mr. edwards is so far from burning when weake christians are offended , that he is offended , when they burne not . his doctrine , practise , and desire is , that supplications and prayers , intercessions and giving of thanks , be made for , and to , kings and all in authoritie , that christians and believers may either not live at all , or at least be so far from leading quiet and peaceable lives in godlinesse and honestie , as to have their faces ground , and their bones broken , and their hearts fill'd with heavinesse , unlesse they will receive the clergie-classique faith , as well as the faith of the lord jesus christ himselfe . o miserable man ! who shall deliver him from this dangerous snare of death ; i meane of conceiting himself like unto paul and jesus christ , in the course he steer's against sects and errors ! and as for calvin , luther , and austin , though these had much more flesh and bloud in them , then the two former had ; yet for him to strengthen his hand in the way he goes , by their example , is as if a murtherer should incourage himselfe in his way , from the practise of a surgeon when he lets bloud , or the proceedings of a judge , when he slayes a malefactor with a sentence of death . for when , or in what age of the world did any of these spread the world round about them with snares of intelligence , in every place , to catch the failings , and haltings and infirmities of the saints ; and when they had taken a proportion of them , to spread a table with them to entertaine and feast the prophane world ? especially when did any of these , ever publish such a rhapsodie , of loose , light , lying reports and tales , all or the greatest part of them calculated for the shame of the saints , and glory of the sons of belial ? or when did any of them deale so importunely or imperiously with those , whom god had set in authoritie over them , to crush the generation of the righteous , the lambs of jesus christ , under the names of sectaries , only because in some things they held not conformitie in judgement with them ? i doe not all this while say , that either mr. edwards writing , or printing , or preaching , against errors , heresies , or sectaries , is that , which simply makes him unlike either unto christ , or paul , or those others named ; for doubtlesse they did , interpretatively at least , all this ; and who hath not ingagements upon him , to go thus far both with him and them , if he be able , and hath opportunitie ? but first , the blaspheming many truths of god , under the names of errors and heresies ( a stone at which his pen frequently dasheth ) maketh him extremely unlike unto christ and paul ; yea and unto those others also , except onely in their failings . secondly , his turning himselfe , especially with that fiercenesse of countenance , and furiousnesse of importunitie , upon the civill magistrate , to provoke men of this interest , to powre out themselves in wrath and indignation upon all those , whom he thinks good to make delinquents by his pen . thirdly , his sending forth of emissaries ( wherein , thorough a mistake of the word independents , in stead of presbyterians , he chargeth the independents to resemble the jesuites ) to discover , and report unto him , the slips and weaknesses of the servants of god . fourthly , his inveteratenesse , and dragon-likenesse of spirit , by which he manageth all his endeavours against errors and sectaries . fifthly , his importune confidence , and overgrowne presumption of his own parts , learning , knowledge . sixthly , his drinking in with so much greedinesse , all , and all manner of reports , that are brought in to him , whether with ground or without , that will but make dirt to throw in the faces of those , whose understandings are either longer or shorter then his , be they otherwise as deare to him whose name is jealous , as the apple of his eye . seventhly and lastly , his virulent and viperous designe , to preach the nakednesse of the saints , yea the nakednesse of vile and unworthy men ( i meane their false , base , and putid suggestions against them ) as their nakednesse , upon the house-top , and to call upon all the world to heare ; these things make him so extremely unlike jesus christ , and those others whom he pretends to imitate , that that drop of resemblance wherein he partakes with them , is quite drown'd and swallowed up in this great ocean of dissimilitude . and let mr. edwards know , and let his conscience and compeers know , that whatsoever he shall suffer , whether from his sectaries or others , in this bloudy negotiation , he shall suffer not as a christian , nor with christ , but as a malefactor and an evill doer . but i marvaile with what profound oracle of policie the man consulted with , about the title of his book , calling it , a catalogue and discovery of many errors of the sectaries . was it not that tyrannicall and bloudy principle : pereant amici , dummodo & inimici una pereant . i. let friends goe to wreck too , so that enemies may but wreck with them . for certainly , by this title he makes presbyterians sectaries , as well as any others . wherein i should not have faulted him , but onely to shew how that the zeale of high presbytery , hath eaten him up , and not left him so much of himself , as wherewith to know his friends from his enemies . for if men be therefore sectaries , because they hold such opinions , as he rallieth in his catalogue under the name of errors , i know many presbyterian sectaries . first , for that which he makes the error in his catalogue , viz. that paedobaptisme is unlawfull , it is sufficienrly known , that the strongest shield and buckler wherewith that cause was ever protected , was the workmanship of a presbyterian hand . so for that opinion , that there is no scripture against a mans being often baptized ( mentioned in the th place ) it calls a presbyterian , master . that the calling and making of ministers of the word and sacraments , are not jure divino , &c. which is the th . that there is no distinction concerning government of ecclesiastical & civil , &c. ( the . ) are the opinions of one , who professeth himself to be no separatist a , and then i know not by mr. edwards principles , to make him any thing but a presbyterian . i know divers of the presbyterian judgement , as well regular as secular , that own the th error ▪ ( so called , or miscalled rather ; ) viz. that faith in a proper sense is imputed in justification , and that christs righteousnesse ( i● his active obedience ) is not imputed ( in the formality of it ) in justification ; though for his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} credere , it is a patch of his own peecing to the opinion , and is no expression of theirs , who otherwise are not ashamed of the opinion . to passe by many others of like patronage and relation ; that which hee cataloguizeth for the . viz. this , that naturall men may doe such things , as whereunto god hath by way of promise annexed grace and acceptation : and that if men improve their naturall abilities to the utmost in seeking grace , they shall find it . i desire to be informed by any understanding man , whether there be not every inch , yea every jot and tittle of the substance of it , asserted by a great doctor ( while he lived ) of the presbyterian schoole , and who being dead , yet speaketh much for that way . i mean mr. john ball , in his treatise of the covenant of grace , not long since published by m. simeon ash . the said treatise being further subscribed and recommended unto the world by five great masters of the assembly it selfe , all of them of intemerated fidelity to the presbyterian cause ; viz. mr. edward reynolds , mr. daniel cawdrey , mr. edmond calamy , mr. thomas hill , mr. anthony burges . in this passage ( p. . ) of the said treatise , no man is hindered from beleeving through the difficulty or unreasonablenesse of the command , or through his owne simple infirmity , as being willing and desirous to beleeve , but not able , ( which inability deserves pitie ) but his inabilitie is of corruption and wilfulnesse : hee doth not beleeve because hee will not : he is unable because he doth not covet or desire , which is inexcuseable . doubtlesse , if no man be hindered from beleeving , either through the difficulty of the command , or through his own infirmity ; and all the reason why a man doth not beleeve , is , because hee will not , naturall men by improving their abilities to the uttermost , may beleeve , and consequently doe that , whereunto god hath by way of promise annexed grace and acceptation . for hath he not promised , that he that beleeves shall be saved ? or doth not salvation amount to as much , or more , then grace and acceptation ? and if men should improve their naturall abilities to the uttermost , and yet not to be able to beleeve , the reason why they doe not beleeve , cannot be said to be this , because they will not : for their will in this case puts forth it selfe to the uttermost , in ingaging men to such an improvement of their abilities . so doubtlesse the same errror ( if an error it be ) is asserted by paulus testardus , pastor to the reformed church of bloys in france , in a tract called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , seu synopsis doctrine de natura & gratia , published not simply by the permission or licence , but ex mandato , by the command of a whole synod of the reformed churches in the province of orleance , p. . thesi . where hee saith , that god in all the three wayes or methods of calling sinners unto salvation ( which he had opened before ) doth not onely shew unto the sinner what hee should , or ought to doe , but gives power to all that are invited or called , to performe and doe it , and so to be saved if they will . so that if even he that is called onely in the most generall manner of all , be not saved , he is inexcuseable before god . this paul expresly teacheth , that ( saith hee ) which may bee known of god , is made manifest in them ( namely the gentiles , ) for god hath made it manifest unto them , that they might bee without excuse before him . but certainly ( he inferres ) excusable they had been , if they had been fully willing to doe it , and only wanted power a : with more of like importance in the seqeul of the same thesis . so that if m. edw. wil make this an error , and a brand of a sectary , to hold , that a man by the uttermost improvement of his natural abilities , may doe that , whereunto god by promise hath annexed grace and acceptation ( though all this while i doe not say that i own the opinion ) he will involve one whole synod , not onely with the guilt of the error ( which is lesse , ) but of an authoritative command , to have the error both printed and published , which is enough to separate between all synods , and their authority and esteem for ever ; yea , and make the crown of orthodoxisme to fade and languish upon the head of our present assembly , by arraigning five of the principall members of it at once , as men tainted with the errors of the sectaries of the time . therefore let him either strike these opinions mentioned ( with many others ) out of his catalogue of errors , or else let him number his own party amongst the sectaries . to draw towards a conclusion ; i shall put a measuring reed into the hand of the reader , wherewith to measure the truth and honesty of the gangrene and her author , from the one end of both unto the other , made of a straight observation of some crooked passages and relations in the gangrene , ready to stink for want of the salt of truth . i shall begin with such particulars as concern my self , and close with others of another aspect and relation . first , though hee doth not set my name in the margin against his th error , ( p. . ) as he had done a little before in the same page against another , yet his intent clearly enough was ( and i think himself will not deny it ) to arraigne the opinion held by me concerning the imputation of faith , and non-imputation of christs righteousnesse in justification , in my treatise upon that subject , entituled , imputatio fidei , for an error a . now how falsly and forgingly he represents the opinion , appeares first , in that hee fathers that mungrell expression , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} credere upon it , onely because it is an expression ad invidiam comparata , but no where used by me throughout the controversie : yea , p. . of the former part of that treatise sect. . i expresly deny that faith justifieth as it is an act . secondly , in that he makes this opinion to say , that the righteousnesse of christ is not imputed in justification . whereas i expresly affirm , ( p. . of the second part of the treatise ) that in a sense ( which i there explain ) as well the habituall holinesse of christs person , as the morall righteousnesse , or active obedience of his life , may be said to be imputed to those that beleeve in him . and very often in the said treatise , upon occasion , i declare in what sense i admit , as well as in what sense i refuse the righteousnesse or active obedience of christ in justification . i suppose he is not himself a son of that profound ignorance , as to hold , that the righteousnesse of christ ( as he calls it , whether meaning ▪ his active or passive obedience , or both ) is in every sense imaginable imputed in justification ; and yet it 's ill presuming of over-much understanding ( especially in the point of justification ) in him , who going about to rectifie the mistakes of others , shall himself affirm , that the redemption and reconciliation purchased by christ , is the moving and meritorious cause of our justification and salvation : and that the instrumental cause whereby the same is imputed , is the bloud of christ . of wch ▪ atheologicall and putid assertions , who would have thought that the great aristarchus of the errors & heresies of the times , could have been the author and assertor , had not mistresse gangraena in the margin of her . page betrayed him ? but if hee , onely denying the imputation of christs righteousnesse in justification in one sense , but asserting it in another , should be simply and indefinitly charged to deny it , would think the charge base and unjust ( as indeed hee should have cause to doe , ) hee himselfe must bow down his back to the same burden , and bee content to be looked ▪ upon as a man of this basenesse , untill hee hath made his atonement with god and men for it . ex ungue leonem . you may by this one instance judge with what truth or honesty hee hath laid down the rest of the opinions in his catalogue . well may he call them errors , when once he hath lift up his pen upon them . forgery hath a mischievous omnipotency , and is able to create what errors or heresies she pleaseth . again , p. . he chargeth mr. john goodwin , that in his point of justification , he quotes calvin , bucer , and others , who are known ex professo to be of another judgement . surely the man is not either so simple , or free from the guilt of false speaking in this assertion , as his words beare . doubtlesse he doth not intend to make it a matter of charge against a man , in the handling of a controversie , to quote authors who are known ex professo to be of a judgement differing from his . how many doth himselfe quote in his gangrene upon as deplorable terms as these ? but the mans meaning is , if he knew how to get it out , that mr. j. g ▪ in his point of justification , quotes calvin , bucer , and others , as being of the same judgement with him , who are known ex professo to bee of another judgement , if this be his sense and charge , either he shewes himselfe to be a very illiterate man , and not able to construe a peece of plain latin ; or else charges calvin , bucer , & the reft , wth being of a judgment as contrary to themselves as to me . if he can construe latin , let him confesse in english whether calvin bee ex professe of a differing judgment from me in the point of justification , in these passages following ( to omit very many others of the same import . ) quum autem justiciam in se repositam non habeant homines , imputatione hane adipiscuntur , quia deus fidem illis fert acceptam pro justiciâ , calvin in gal. . . and again , quare abraham credendo nihil aliud quam oblatam sibi gratiam amplectitur , ne irrita sit . si hoc illi imputatur in justiciam , sequitur non aliter esse justum , nisi quia dei bonitate consisus , omnia ab ipso sperare audet , calv. in rom. . . fides repvtatvr in jvsticiam , non quod ullum à nobis meritum afferat , sed quia dei bonitatem apprehendat . ibidem . yet again : quibus etiam verbis do●emur , iusticiam paulo nihil aliud esse quàm remissionem peccatorum . calvin rom. . . manet ergo salva nobis pulcherrima sententia , iustificari hominem fide , quia gratuita peccatorum remissione coram deo purgatus sit . ibid. abraham fidem habuit iehova : & reputavit id ei iusticiam : hoc est , habuit ei pro iusticia hanc fidem . credendo igitur id accepit , ut deus eum pro iusto haberet . bucer rom. . . i forbeare to english these passages , because i desire to make an experiment upon mr. edwards , whether he be able to doe it , or no . if he shall publickly acknowledge that he hath abused both me and himselfe , and many more , in charging me with quoting authors for me , who are known ex professo to be of another iudgement , i shall conceive the better hopes of some competency of a latin faculty in him ; but if he shal stand to avouch a charge of so palpable and manifest untruth , to them that understand the authors language a , i professe ingenuously that i know no reason but to judge him uncapable of the english sense of a latin sentence . but whether calvin , bucer , and those other he speakes of , quoted by me in my point of justification , be of the same judgement or no , with me in the point , let neither me , nor he , nor mr roborough be judges , ( for we very possibly may all be partiall ) but let us referre the decision to two sufficient men , and without exception , both for learning , and integritie , and knowledge of the case , the one a foreine divine , some yeares since at rest with god , never knowne to me ; the other a neighbour minister indeed , and of the assembly it selfe , but between whom and my selfe , there was never any acquaintance , beyond a casuall enterview , and the exchange of a few words of course . the former of the two is david pareus , sometimes chiefe professor of divinitie in the universitie in heidelburgh : who in his tract concerning the active and passive righteousnesse of christ , having laid downe his judgement ( in the controversie depending ) thus , ( pag. . ) that remission of sinnes for the satisfaction of christ imputed to us , is our whole and intire justification , and argued accordingly ( pag. . ) in the following page , addeth as followeth ; i might here produce the authorities of the fathers , who likewise place our righteousnesse ( meaning , in justification ) in the alone forgivenesse of sinnes for the death of christ : and accordingly cites severall testimonies out of austin , oecumenius , and ambrose . and immediately after these testimonies , thus ; i might also alledge the consent of luther , melancthon , zuinglius , oecolampadius , calvin , bullinger , martyr , musculus , hyperius , vrsine , olenian , &c. from whose doctrine in the point of justification , i doe not vary a nailes breadth . so that the light of this mans reading and judgement together , could discover no other opinion touching the formall cause of justification , either in the fathers , or any of the chiefe protestant writers in his time , but that it should stand onely in remission of sinnes . the latter of the two mentioned is , mr thomas gataker , a man of approved learning and integrity amongst us : who in mr an. wottons defence against mr walkers charge , lately published in print by him , acknowledgeth ( p. . ) that however he for his part deemeth it erroneous ( and so doe i too , taking the word justification in that large sense which it seemeth he doth where he argueth against the opinion , as viz. in his animadversions upon the disputes between piscator and lucius , p. . besides sundry other places ) to hold that justification consisteth in remission of sinnes , yet that calvin , beza , olenian , vrsine , zanchie , piscator , pareus , musculus , bullinger , fox , and divers others of great note and name , yea whole synods of ours are found so to say : adding further , and yet were these men never yet , that i ever heard or read , for so saying , condemned as heretiques , much lesse as blasphemous heretiques , but had in high esteeme , as their worth , parts , and workes well deserved , by those that therein dissented from them . i trust the servant is not greater then his master ; nor the authoritie of the clerk , equall to that of the justice of peace . if mr. gataker hath spoken , i hope mr. roborough will hold his peace . and since two such men , as david pareus and mr. thomas gataker , have so clearly and confidently affirmed , every mouth ( i trust ) of clamor and contradiction will from henceforth be stopped . for in the mouth of two or three witnesses ( saith the divine law it selfe ) shall every word be established a : yea i am not without some hope , but that mr. thomas edwards himselfe , may in time be reduced , though i know that in clamorous and aspersive bickerings , he emulates the glory of that martiall zeale which was in him , who still affected to appeare , primus inire manu , postremus ponere bellum , i ▪ the first to fight , and last to quit the field . pag. . he affirmes , that quoting his antapologie , and citing the former part of the sentence , i leave out the latter ; adding this palpable untruth ; that had i but named it , it would have been an evident confutation of me . i clearly prov'd ( sect. . of this answer ) that the latter part of the sentence he speaks of , especially construed with the former part which i cite , is absolute and complete non-sense . and was any man ever evidently confuted in evident non-sense ? except it be in such a sense , as he that drinkes puddle water , confutes him that chooseth rather to drinke at the cleare fountaine or streame . pag. . he chargeth his sectaries or independents , that they use to give great and glorious names , and swelling titles to their bookes , as ( for instance ) innocency and truth triumphing together , &c. i perceive by his aggrievement at this title , first , that if high presbyterie be advanc'd , neither innocency , nor truth , are like to triumph : this keene piece of presbyterie is not able to beare the mention of such things . secondly , that matters of truth any wayes tending to the disparagement of independency , are very rare , and scarce , and not to be had for love or money . for otherwise , ( doubtlesse ) the man would not have plaid at so small game , would not have strain'd himself to catch at this flie . as much love as a single half-peny , would have serv'd to have cover'd this transgression . what ? not so much libertie meet to be allowed to independents , as to give what names they think best to their bookes , without a synodicall debate , and permission ? i confesse , gangraena , is no great or glorious name , but it is a title swelling with poyson , and the gall of aspes . but for me , i shall take no offence at it : the proverb is but fulfilled , similes habent labra lactucas ; like lips , like lettuces . both title and booke ( i presume ) are savoury meat to those for whom they were prepared , and such as their soules love , as marrow and fatnesse . but what reason he hath to call innocencie and truth triumphing together , either a great and glorious name , or swelling title , wee desire to gather from the tree of paradise the next moneth of her fructification . in the mean season , mr edwards must suffer as an unjust asperser in this charge also . pag. . he chargeth mr. john goodwin , in a sermon to have uttered that against the parliament , and the power of it , as opens a gap to all slighting of their authoritie and power : and further addeth , that he believes there was never any such speech from any before himselfe . but first , if any such gap ( as he speaks of ) be opened , i know no wild beasts that have broken in at it , but some such presbyterians , who ( as i heare ) demanded , what hath the parliament to doe with inferior courts ? and who charge some of the worthy members thereof , to be hereticall and factious ; yea ninnies and grolls , and men that have no more wit , then will reach from their nose to their mouth , and are onely sensible . i confesse in respect of such presbyterian spirits as these , there had need be no gap opened to the slighting of parliamentarie authoritie and power : and that the parliament it selfe had need keepe power out of such hands , which without it know how to be imperious enough . but secondly , it is so far from being true , that i in the sermon he speaks of , have uttered any thing against the parliament or power of it ; much more , any thing which opens any gap to all slighting of their authoritie and power ; that he himselfe in this charge against me , dasheth his foote against the stone he speaks of . for first , that which he insinuates as uttered by me of such a consequence , is nothing else but manifest and cleare truth ; yea and hath passed the triall of presbyterian fire it selfe , and is come forth in full weight , without suffering the least damage or detriment by it . secōdly , most certain it is , that no truth whatsoever hath any prejudiciall or endamaging influence upon any just and lawfull authoritie ; for god is not divided in , or against himselfe . therefore he that shall affirme , that any authoritie or power whatsoever , is any waies endangered , prejudic'd , or disparaged by any truth , doth by an unavoidable consequence , denie that authoritie or power to be lawfull , or from god . nor could mr. edwards lightly have uttered any thing , that would have strooke more dangerously at the very roote of all parliamentarie authoritie and power , then to say , that he that speakes the truth , speaks against them , and opens a gap to all slighting of them . but thirdly ( and lastly ) let mr. edwards and his abettors in this charge know , that it is not they who speake the truth , whether to parliament or princes , that open a gap to the slighting of their authoritie or power ; no : but they are the men of this demerit and impietie , who for their own ends flatter them , and have their persons in admiration for advantage ; who straine their wits and consciences together , to lift them up nearer to the heavens then god will beare , that so they may be masters of an opportunitie and power , to gratifie them in their carnalls . and the truth is , that had not god by more then an ordinary hand of grace , both towards themselves , and towards the nation , made those honorable and worthy counsellors , wiser then their teachers ; satan had a most dangerous advantage against them , to have made them more unwise then their enemies . page . he chargeth the independents , that many of them play at cards and tables , are very loose on the sabbath dayes , goe to bowls and other sports on dayes of publick thankesgiving , as mr. iohn goodwin , and severall of his church , &c. whether his intent be to justifie and make good the first and second branches of this charge , viz. the independents playing at cards and tables , and their loosness on the sabbath dayes , by the instance of mr. iohn goodwin and severall of his church , i will not determine . certain i am , that according to the common rules of construction , his words import it , and i beleeve that not one reader of ten but so understands him . if this be his sense , abhorred of all men be his lying : for mr. iohn goodwin neither playes at cards nor at tables ; neither hath he done either since his first comming to the citie , nor of many yeares before ; nor doth he know any of his church addicted to either of these recreations . but however , i marvell the man should think to burthen the independents with these exercises of cards and tables , when as it is so generally known , of what light account , and generall use they are in the best reformed presbyterian churches . and if there bee any of the independent way so much addicted to them , as mr. edwards charge seems to import , i beleeve they are chiefly , if not onely , those whom mr. edwards calls malignants , complaining of them for falling to this way ; and who lately drank of the same waters of episcopacie with the far greatest part of the presbyterian party , and now accompany them in their schisming or rending off from that way . and ( alas ! ) who knowes not how hard a thing it is for men that have a long time drunk old wine with their old friends , presently to drink new ? for his charge of loosnesse on the sabbath dayes , the net of independency , like that of the gospel ( as it seems by the many bitter complaints made by mistresse gangraena in that behalfe ) gathering fishes of every kind , good and bad a , and that in such abundance , as the tenor of the said complaints imports , i am not able to speak for the whole circumference . but for m. i. goodwin and severall of his church , who are the onely persons in whom instance is given to make good the truth of the charge , we desire that when his great labours of powring out the viall upon the sun be over , he will please to refresh himselfe with telling out the story at large , with the particularities of it , viz. on what sabbath , or sabbaths it was , whether before saint ieffrey or after , that either himselfe or his informers saw that loosnesse in mr. iohn goodwin and severall of his church , and what loosnesse it was , and who of his church they were , that transgrest this transgression with him . for my part , i shall not goe about to justifie my selfe , or all of my church from more loosnesse then well becomes us , on such dayes ; but i know no loosnesse comparable to that , when ministers of the gospel , ( whether such , or so called by themselves ) shall take liberty under the name of preaching to vent vagrant , loose , light , lying tales and reports , on purpose to defame the good wayes and servants of god ; or else to make lowd challenges to all the world , to make good what they deliver , and yet shrink and decline the incounter with a few plain conscientious men . doublesse neither mr. iohn goodwin , nor any of his church , ever trespassed the trespass of any such loosnesse as this on any sabbath day ; nor of any other equall in demerit to it . but though hee should cavill himselfe off from the charge of charging , either mr. iohn goodwin or any of his church , either with playing at cards and tables , or with loosnesse on sabbath dayes , yet he must own the charging of them with going to bowles , and other sports , on dayes of publick thankesgiving . therefore , first , because he speaks of dayes in the plurall number , as of many ; we desire him , that in the next return of his monethly course upon him , he will throughly purge himselfe from all malignancy in this particular of his charge , by naming those dayes of publick thankesgiving wherein this hainous offence ( but against no commandment or law , either of god or man ) was committed . wee cannot allow it , no not by his own law for a sufficient come-off , to say that on such a day of publick thankesgiving , the men impeached trespassed the said impeachment , except he can give instance of the pretended miscarriage in more dayes then one , of that denomination . for himselfe in his antapologie , p. . quarrels with his you five ( as ever and anone hee calls the apologists ) onely for saying , that some of their brethren in their printed books do candidly testifie of them ; telling them ( by way of reproof , and charge of untruth in their assertion ) that it is but one of them , not some that doe so testifie . therefore by his own rule , an assertion of the plurall number cannot be justified by a single instance or example of what is plurally asserted . and yet who knowes not the very law of nature allowes a man a greater indulgence of phrase and expression in his own purgation , then it doth in charging or impeaching others ? secondly , wee desire of our grand-accuser , the next time hee comes amongst us with his monethly visitation , to let the world know , what other sports they are that mr. iohn goodwin , and some of his church use to go unto on dayes of publick thankesgiving , besides bowles : they are not conscious to themselves of transgressing either in bowles or in any other sports on such dayes . thirdly ( and lastly ) we desire of him for the further vindication of himselfe in this charge , when it shall next bee with him after the manner aforesaid , that hee will please to speak it out , that the world may hear , on what day of publick thanksgiving , about what time or houre of the day , whether fore-noon , or afternoon ; whether in the morning , or in the evening it was that mr. iohn goodwin , with severall of his church went , or on such dayes are wont to goe to bowles and other sports . for if it were on the evening of such a day , that the deed was done , it is no clean strain to say it was done in the day it selfe , especially except some notice were given in the margin , that he chargeth by the day naturall , not artificiall . and besides , if it proves but an evening transgression ▪ the constant practice of the gravest presbyterians themselves , going to see the fire works usually made in severall places of the citie , on every fifth of november , being the most ancient , and honorable day of publick thankesgiving unto the nation , will be an abundant atonement for it . but ( reader ) that thou maist understand ab ovo ad mala , from the top to the toe , the nature and tenor of that grand delinquencie in point of loosnesse , which is here charged upon mr. john goodwin and severall of his church , the story truly and briefly is this : vpon the day ordered by authority for publick thanksgiving unto god for his gracious and good hand upon the new modell in the victory at nazeby the last summer , having preached somewhat long , and to wearines in michaels cornhill in the fore-noon , and being hereby somewhat indisposed to further labour that day , i kept my house privatly in the afternoon , till about five or six of the clock . at which time two of the brethren comming in , and finding me in no better posture , desired me to walk out a little into the fields with them , suggesting that a walk in the fresh aire might doe me some good . so a walk we took , the season being pleasant and faire ; and having walked about a quarter of a mile , or very little more , and being now upon returning , one of those that were with me told the other and my selfe , that if we thought good to ease our selves a little before wee returned , there was a garden-house of a friend of his ( a man familiarly known also to my self and the other , though of a differing judgement from us in point of discipline ) neere at hand , and that if we pleased we might step in thither , and repose our selves for a while . comming into the garden , we betook our selves to an arbour , and there fate about halfe an houre . during which time ( and i know not how long before ) there was a company playing at bowles in a little alley in the garden ; whom ( i presume ) we shall not wrong in case we judge them presbyterians , though ( i confesse ) wee did not examine them upon the point . but before this company had given over their exercise , there came into the garden to us some more of our acquaintance , some of them of our , others of them of m. edwards judgement in point of church-government . when the company that all this while had been bowling , quit their ground , one in our company , ( i remember not who , or of what judgement ) asked mee if i would not stirre my self a little by casting a bowle before i went home . the motion being made , and the rest inclining to it , wee went , whether or , of us , i doe not remember ; but that the one part was presbyterian , and the other independent , i perfectly remember , and betook our selves for about halfe an houre to the exercise ; the sun by this time being either down , or very neere it ; and so returned home . this is the story of that drop of water which m. edwards hath got upon the tip of his finger to cool his tongue , being ( as it seems ) grievously tormented in the flames of passion and indignation , that the world should no more wonder after the presbyterians for holinesse and religion , then to think that the independents had equall part and fellowship with them therein . but let us animadvert a few things upon the story before wee leave it . first , it is very observeable that the man , who ( it seems ) holds correspondency with the world , and with all parts in the kingdome , to receive intelligence of all the miscarriages and undue deportments of all such as are independently given , is notwithstanding necessitated for the carrying up his great designe of their defamation , to article against them supposed miscarriages and misdemeanors , in stead of those that are truly and really such . mr. edwards i presume knowes , that where there is no law , there is , there can be , no sin , no transgression a : for that sin ( all sin ) is a transgression of some law b . now then till mr. edwards shall produce some law either of god or man , against which mr. iohn goodwin and those of his church hee speakes of , trespassed in bowling as aforesaid , ( which i know hee will not bee able to doe till the day after doomsday ) it must be acknowledged that all their offence and miscarriage therein , amounts to no more , then onely to an unhappy occasion of causing mr. edwards to give testimony unto them , whilst his heart was up to dishonor them . secondly , it is considerable , that as there were some of mr. john goodwins church : so there were some ( and , as i remember , more ) of mr. edwards his church also , ( i mean of the church of england ) who were involved in that innocent transgression of playing at bowles ; yea , the owner of the garden and alley , a godly and honest man , and competently warm in the presbyterian way , was partaker with them in the supposed oversight . but ( as was said before ) his maxime is , pereant amici dummodo & inimiciuna pereant . let us bespatter our enemies , what ever becomes of our friends . thirdly , for my selfe , i neither so much as handled a bowle for many months , ( i think i might truly say , for some years ) before ; nor have i done it since : nor would i then have drunk this cup of cold water , could i have thought the weaknesse of any brother so great , as to be offended at it . but now perceiving the presbyterian weaknesse to be so excessively and importunely great as it is , i doe hereby , in the word of a minister of the gospel , secure mr. edwards , and all his tender retinue , that i wil drink no more any such waters , i mean cast a bowle on a day or night of publick thanksgiving , whilst the world stands , lest i should offend them . but fourthly , if i had a mind to demand a tooth for a tooth , i could call some presbyterian starres by their names , and those of the first magnitude , who upon a day of publick thanksgiving , fell every whit as far from heaven , as mr. i. goodwin and those of his church did . yea , if you sift the doctorate it selfe of the assembly , i beleeve you wil find a man dropping through your sieve , who with three more ( of his com-or sub-presbyters rather , four ministers in all ) consecrated the greater part ( if not the whole ) of an afternoon upon a publick thankesgiving day , to a service that had no more religion in it , then the fishermans daily occupation and imployment : nor did their exercise ( it seems ) receive any great testimony from heaven , they ate but very little of the labour of their hands ; two roaches ( as saith the history ) being all that providence and they could agree upon for the reward of their afternoone service . but presbyterians ( i perceive ) have a priviledge asserted to steale horses , without sin : but poore independents must not have so much as a toleration to look on . and if mr. edwards will not take faire warning when it is given him , and give over telling tales of independents , i know who is resolv'd to sift the fore-mentioned heap yet neerer to the bran : and to make the world judge , whether presbyterian mistakes in the night , be not far worse then independent bowlings on dayes ( or evenings rather ) of publick thanks givings . yea i know who hath a story of a presbyterian angel , which doth but waite for the opening of mr. edwards mouth in reproaches and slanders against his independent brethren the second time , to clap into it , and stop it for ever . yea i my self have a manuscript by me , which came to my hands above a yeare since , concerning mr. edwards himself ; which discourseth his jugling and indirect walking between the two townes of godalmin in surrey , and dunmow in essex . the writing will be attested by good hands : and if there be no remedy , will be content to submit it selfe to the presse . in the meane time , how wofull and sad is the method , wherein the case depending between presbytery and independency , must now ( it seemes ) thorough mr. edwards his horrid and portentuous proceedings , be argued and debated thorough ! the arguments on both sides being onely or chiefly , firebrands of reproaches and defamations , throwne in faces of the one side by the other . so that that way of the two , which is able to render the sons of her competitresse most odious and hatefull unto the world , must sit as queene , and weare the crowne . mr. edwards by the method , wherein he hath begun to plead the cause of presbytery , and threatens to proceed , hath devoted the names and reputations of all of his owne partie , at least of such of them as are any wayes obnoxious , to the universall abhorring both of the present , and future ages . therefore it concernes all presbyterians in generall , and the doctorage of this way more particularly , that are any wayes conscious , to heale the gangrene of his pen , & to restraine the further spreading of it : otherwise their names and reputations are but so many dead corpses . . whilst mr. edwards so conscientiously refraineth from casting a bowle upon the evening of a thankesgiving day , and takes libertie to recreate himself with revilings and bitter speakings against the wayes and servants of god in the heart and strength of such dayes , ( as his manner is too too frequently to doe ) doth he not straine out gnats , and swallow camels ? and run parallel in practise with those priests & people , who refused to goe into the common hall , left they should be defiled a ; but fear'd no defilement from prosecuting that just one , even unto death ? yea doth he not by such distinctions as these , imitate the temper and spirit of the goddesse diana among the heathen , who ( as iphigenia in euripides saith of her ) was wont to drive from her altar , as uncleane , whoever did but touch a woman in childbed , or a person slaine ; and yet delighted to have men slaine in sacrifice unto her ? . ( and lastly ) may it not be some question , whether the particularitie of that day of publique thanksgiving , wherein mr. edwards finds mr. john goodwin and some of his church so tardie , might not occasion him to sift the independents more narrowly on that day , then on many others ? it was said of king philip , that though he loved the treason , yet he hated the traytor . so wee have many spirits amongst us who love victories , and yet doe little lesse then hate the victors , i meane those by whom it pleaseth god to give many of these unto them . mr. edwards administers a strong ground of suspition , that he himself is a man of this dark complexion , in the last page ( save one ) of his dedicatory epistle , where , having first strip'd himself nak'd of all principles of reason and ingenuitie , he thus shamelesly bespeakes the two honourable houses of parliament . and who knows but that all these victories are sent to take away all excuse , to answer this objection , and to encourage you to this work ? the work he speaks of , and whereunto he supposes that no man can be ignorant , but that the parliament are incouraged from god by those many victories which he hath given them , is ( as appeares by the tenor and straine of the whole epistle ) the crushing and utter undoing of all those , whose consciences cannot submit to the lawes of presbytery in all things appertaining to god . so then , it being generally knowne , that many considerable persons , whom god hath honored , by making them eminently instrumentall in the victories he speaks of , cannot presbyterialize in things of god ; that which he saith to the parliament in the words mentioned , being interpreted , is this ; who knows but that the many victories , which god hath given you , were intended by him as a means of incouragement unto you , to quash and crush the greatest part of those men , who were signally instrumental and serviceable both to god and them in the obtaining of them , together with all those that adhere in judgement to them in the land . now the spirit of the man being so extremely incomportable with the honour , comfort , or peace of many of those who were prime actors in the service at naseby , lest the valour and faithfulnesse of these men being commended by god unto the nation with such remarkable successe , should plead with too nigh an hand the goodnesse of the way wherein they serve and worship god , in the minds and thoughts of the generalitie of men , he ( probably ) conceiv'd that the best way to prevent this misery from coming upon him , was to inquire out how men professing the same way with them , behav'd themselves on that day , whereon publique thankes were to be given unto god for that victory : that so in case any unseemly or unworthy thing could be found out and charged upon any of them , as on this day , the divulging of it , might help to break the strength and interest of that other plea in the minds of men . page . he observes , that two of my children were taken away by the plague of pestilence , upon the making my house a meeting for the sectaries . that two of my children were taken away , by that hand of god he speaks of , others so reporting it besides mr. edwards , ( for touching the manner or means of their taking away , i know nothing but by report , my selfe having been far absent severall weeks , when god took them away ) i shall not denie . and if he had staid his pen and clos'd the period here , he had wrought little lesse then a miracle ; for he had uttered one whole sentence of truth . but now he may take up the poets lamentation ; sed mea me in culpam nimirùm fata trahebant : the spirit that attends him , ( it seems ) envied him the crown of that glory . for in saying , that this was done upon making my house a meeting for the sectaries , he makes the sentence like unto its fellows , i meane void of truth . for first , my house is a solid substance ; whereas mr. edwards meeting is a fluid accident . i never heard of an house , that was made a meeting till now . and if mine be transformed into such a thing , doubtlesse mr. edwards hath done it by some magique incantation ; i have done no such thing to it my self . but it is the mans unhappinesse to be ever and anon tardie , in non-sense , as well as in non-truth . . if his meaning be , that i have made a meeting place of it , whether for sectaries , or whosoever , he doth not herein neither nick the truth . for if by my house , he means , my dwelling house , consisting of that building and roomes , wherein i keepe and converse daily with my familie , ( which is the ordinary acception of the word ) this is no wayes altered by me since my coming to it . or . if his meaning be , that i have ordered and disposed some part of the buildings which i have hired , with an intent to have sectaries meet there ; neither yet doth the man or his meaning agree with the truth . i confesse one roome in these buildings , is ordered with an intent that such persons who thinke it worth their time to attend my ministery , whether presbyterians or others , may be some wayes accommodated to partake thereof . but that i ever made it , or intended to make it , a meeting-place for sectaries , well may it be one of mr edwards assertions , but truth it is none . nor doe i know any sort of persons that ever met in it yet , that any whit more deserve the denomination of sectaries , then the presbyterians themselves . but . ( and lastly ) if the mans meaning be , ( which is simply the best construction can be made of his words ) that i have permitted and given way , that some part of the buildings which i have taken , should be us'd by such persons , as in his mis-carrying dialect are called sectaries , to meet in ; neither will this relieve him against the habituated foulnesse of his pen , or make the sentence cleane . for it was not upon that permission or grant of mine , that my two children were taken away , nor yet upon the furnishing of the roome for conveniency of meeting , ( for the sectaries he speaks of , both presbyterians & others , had met therein severall times before the least haire of the heads of either of the children fell to the ground ) but it was upon my deserting and disuse of it for a longer time , then god ( it seems ) was well pleased with ; at least if i should look upon the taking them away , as a stroake of anger or displeasure from god . but as touching the providence it selfe about my children , whether i should look upon it as having more of mercie , or more of judgement in it , i am not satisfied to this day . though the children ( i confesse ) were deare unto me , & their lives very desireable , upon hopes that god ( howsoever ) would have provided for them , if he had thought it meet they should live ; yet considering that the best part of that livelihood and means of subsistence which i had , was by a strong hand taken from me , i could not so much look upon the taking of them away by god , as a taking them away from me , as from that misery , whereunto the undeserved hatred and injustice of my presbyterian neighbours , in wresting and detaining my means from me , had exposed them . men took away my means ; and god made up the breach ( in part ) by diminishing my charge . neither were they taken away alone : there was a greater number of children taken away out of a prebyterian familie neere to them , by the same hand of god ; where yet there was no meeting-place made for sectaries . and besides , i could soone be out of mr. edwards debt for this story concerning two of my children being taken away ; by telling him of three grave men ( and two of them great ) who were principall actors in my troubles and ejection , taken away by death since the good service they did to the presbyterian partie in that transaction . god hath cut off both head and taile of those my adversaries : but i leave mr edw. to make observatiōs upon it : for my part , i make none . i have now perfected reckonings and accounts between mr. edwards and my selfe , and have set straight the foule errors and falsifications of his bookes in these . i have yet another small parcell of accounts to cleare with him in the behalfe of others : and by that time i shall have issued these , though i shall be very briefe in this transaction , yet i feare i shall make him uncapable of any quietus est for ever . for doubtlesse the man hath sold himselfe to write all , and all manner of untruths that he can but scrapple together , from what mouths or tongues or pens he cares not , so they be but presbyterian in their constitution , and carry any antipathie in them either to the honour or peace of independencie . i presume that mris gangraena hath not as yet paid me the tith or tenth part of her forgeries : it is like in time shee will be more honest in this , and i shall receive knowledge of the whole substance of her iniquitie . i shall begin this latter account , where mr. edwards wel-nigh makes an end ; with a story related by him in the very last leafe , ( save one ) of his booke , viz. p. . concerning one cosens of rocbester in kent . by the way , if the common proverb , which saith , that the best is at the bottome , takes place in his booke ; forgery of forgeries , and all is forgery , all over it . for in this relation , ( by which you may judge both of those many that goe before it , and those few that follow after it ) there are wel-nigh , quot verba , tot mendacia : and yet even this also hath this banner of confidence displayed before the face of it ; i was enformed for certaine : upon which preface we shall animadvert presently . first , his relation here reports , that one cosens of rochester in kent , that jesus christ was a bastard . hoc primum : let this be the first lie in this catalogue : the man never said it . . this report avoucheth , that the said cosens said , that if jesus christ were upon the earth againe , he would be ashamed of many things he then did . this is another of the same , and the second in order . for neither did the man speake any such words as these ; the witnesse , upon whose single testimony , ( originally ) both these and the former words were charged upon him , upon reexamination , and that upon oath , before the committee of the countie , wav'd both the one and the other ; as appeares by the said examination under the hand of the clerk of the said committee , which i saw & read ; and is forth-coming for any man to peruse for his satisfaction . . this information of mr. edwards affirmes , that the said cosens , for the said blasphemies , was put into prison in rochester . keep tale : this is a third stumble . the occasion of the mans imprisonment , was a matter of a quite differing nature ; as by inquiry may be found out by any man ; though for some reasons the partie thinketh not so fit to have it printed . . the said certain information informeth ; that the said cosens being committed , at the sessions there came an order from some in place to the recorder to release him . skore up : this is the fourth word of folly in this narration . for there came no order from any in place , nor unto any in place , recorder or other , for the release of the man ; but upon the sight of the fore-mentioned examination taken upon oath before the committee , by the justices , the man was discharged . this untruth may well stand for two ( or at least be printed in a capitall letter ) because men of honour and place are aspersed by it , as if they interposed with their interest or power to obstruct the course of law and justice . . the information now under impeachment , further averreth , that upon the receipt of the said order , the recorder a serjeant at law , and a grave man , used these words ; cosens , know you must shortly come before another court to answer for these words , where you shall have no order to release you . tallie on : this is a fift ( if not a fift and sixt ) phib in the relation . for here is a big lye with a lesser in the belly of it . for , first , the recorder he speaks of , never , upon no occasion , spake any such words as these to the man : nor secondly , did he ever receive any such order , as is here spoken of ; and so could not speake , either these words , or any other , upon the receipt of it . . this loud-lying information , further attests , that this man ( cosens ) being at libertie , entertaines in his house the sectaries that come from london , or other places into those parts , as den , lamb , woodman , &c. keep tale ; this is a sixt flaw ( at least ) in the certain information . for the man professeth that he knows no such man , as woodman ; nor that ( to his knowledge ) he ever saw the face of the man . . ( and lastly ) the said presbyterian information , for uniformitie sake , that it may end as it began , affirmes ( in the cloze of it ) that this cosens is so bold , that he dares threaten to question and trouble godly orthodox presbyteriall ministers , and goes to some of their churches to see if he can get any matter against them : for example , he hath gone to one mr. clares , a godly minister , and threatened upon hearing him to complaine of him , and put in articles against him . remember the account : for this is the seventh and eighth time ( at least ) that the information prevaricateth with the truth . for first , the man is so far from daring to threaten to question or trouble any godly minister whatsoever , that he professeth it to be his judgement , that neither godly , nor ungodly , whether ministers or others , ought to be questioned or troubled for their judgements in matters appertaining unto god . therefore secondly , though he confesseth that he went to mr clare upon the preaching of a sermon , and told him that he had not delivered the truth ; yet that he any wayes threatned mr. clare , he absolutely denieth . i find nothing more to be excepted against in this information of the th of february , as matter of untruth : the reason ( i conceive ) is , because there is no more of it . this counter-information , i had from the mouth of the said cosens himselfe , and have the particulars under his hand . now though there be never a sentence ( scarce a clause or piece of a sentence ) true in all this relation , yet it hath mr edwards seale upon it , and this foundation ; i was informed for certain : but first , by this specialtie of honour , i was informed for certain , bestowed upon this relation , doth he not plainly grant and imply , that he was informed of many other things in his gangrene , for uncertain ? if he had been informed of the greatest part of them for certain untruths , his information had been orthodox , and no guile found in the lips of it . but secondly , if mr. edwards signall and choice reports , of which he was informed for certain , be of so dark and dismall a complexion , that there is scarce so much as one beame , or the least glimmering of the light of truth in the whole body of some of them , what shall we think of those that have no such image or superscription of confidence upon them ? if his chariots and horsemen faile , surely his infantery will yeeld the field . . ( and lastly ) i would gladly understand , by what character of difference the man discernes between his informations for certain , and those that are but of vulgar repute with him , and for which he alloweth three graines of non-beliefe : i suppose such as come from his godly orthodox presbyterian ministers , he holds for certain : those which come from hands whose heads have not been anointed with the hands of consecration , more ambiguous and doubtfull ; and yet certain enough to be reported and spread , if their faces be but set against independency . but who is mr edwards godly orthodox presbyterian minister ? is he not such an one , who works stoutly at the forge , and feeds both himself & the world with all manner of scandals and falshoods against the independents , without feare ? we have reason to judge so by the rule of proportion . for p. . he pronounceth a man , a person religious , and well-affected to the parliament , only upon occasion of a letter written by him , full fraught with false and foule stories and insinuations against his sectaries ; who is look'd upon by men as godly , and as judicious as mr. edwards , yea and who have better opportunitie to know the spirit and wayes of the man , in reference to both those particulars , then he ; by such ( i say ) this man is look'd upon , as a man no wayes deserving either of those commendations , except it be by the figure {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; as will appeare ( in part ) by a letter , whereof we shall give a copie before we end . you have seene the man like himselfe in a kentish storie : let us crosse the water , and see whether wee can finde him in any better shape on this side . pag. . & . he tells you a long formall story of one nichols , living about moore-fields , that comes into stepney-parish to draw away people : that to mr. greenhils face did justifie and maintain many wicked opinions , &c. vpon occasion whereof there was a meeting concluded , and mr. greenhill and mr. burroughs , with many others , were at it . hee tells you further when this meeting was , viz. a little before mr. burroughs fell upon the preaching of the power of the magistrate in matters of religion . and further adorns the relation with many good words that mr. greenhill should speak at this meeting ; with others that mr. burroughs should speak , as particularly , that in regard of these things , matters being so , there was a necessity both of the government of the church , and of the power of the magistrate , &c. as likewise with others that should be spoken by divers others there present . this story is long , and the particular forgeries in it numerous beyond measure . in which respect i shall desire the reader at his leasure to make the computation , which he may do with exactnes enough , if he shall please to compare mr. edwards relation with these ensuing lines which i received from mr. burroughs himself in writing , anent the businesse : that story mr. edwards hath , page . of one nichols , and of a meeting concluded of , occasioned by some vise opinions vented by that nichols , where mr. greenhill and my selfe ( he sayes ) was , together with divers passages that hee relates came from mee at that meeting , is all false . i know no such man as this nichols , i never heard there was such a man in the world , till i read it in mr. edwards his book . i to this day know of no meeting about him , or any of his opinions , either intended , desired , or resolved upon , much lesse that there was any such meeting . the next lords day after mr. edwards his book came forth , m. greenhill asked me whether i knew of any such meeting with that nichols : for his part he wondred to see such a thing in mr. edwardshis book , for he knew of no such meeting . thus far m. burroughs . and because we have had occasion here to mention mr. burroughs ; and mr. edwards takes occasion p. . not onely to deale by him as he doth by his other sectaries , whose opinions he arraignes ( ad placitum ) for errors ; but seldome either names their persons , or encounters their opinions by argument ; whereas hee hath expressed himselfe in both against him ; i desire to insert a few lines for the vindication of him that is unjustly charged , by detecting the weaknesse and groundlesnesse of the charge . the opinion wherewith mr. burroughes stands there charged amongst the sectaries , as with an error , is this : whatsoever errors or miscarriages in religion , the church should bear withall in men , continuing them still in communion with them , as brethren , these the magistrates should beare with in men , continuing them in the kingdome or commonwealth , in the enjoyment of the liberty of subjects . but first it is to be considered , that mr. burroughes , p. . of his book , had laid down this position , that notwithstanding any plea of conscience , yet if the error be destructive to the state , a man may be dealt withall by the state for it . and secondly , this , ( p. . ) that no pretence of conscience can excuse a man in any matter of apparent injustice . these two conclusions pre-asserted , he comes , ( p. . ) to give this rule for forbearance in matters of religion : that whatsoever miscarriages in matters of religion the church should beare with , these the magistrate should beare with : because though it should be never so much granted , that the magistrate is custos utriusque tabulae , yet his charge in matters of religion reacheth not further then the charge of the church doth . now mr. edwards to confute this , instanceth in a man whose conscience is not satisfied in the point of subjects taking up armes against armies raised by a prince , and therefore refuseth bearing armes , and all maintenance to such a warre , &c. such a man as this ( saith he ) the state may sequester , and the parliament i think hath sequestred many upon such occasions , taking their estates , &c. surely this confutation is so farre from being fit to satisfie any scholar , that it hath hardly strength or colour enough to take women or weake people with a . for doth the state deale with such a person as he gives instance in , as for an error , or matter in religion ? or for injustice to the state ; yea , apparent injustice , and that which is destructive to the state ? for forbearing that , which if others should for beare also , the state must needs be destroyed ? now evident it is , that mr. burroughs doctrine or rule touching for bearance , concerns matters of religion , when the subject matter is religion , not matters of state , wherein men may pretend conscience ; yea , it may bee , are conscientious indeed so farre , and in such a sense , as men of an erroneous conscience may be such . but this confutation of mr. burroughs is ( it seems ) but a forlorn hope ; the fore-runner of a great army of confutations advancing . troilus ( i see ) will needs be trying his valour with achilles , whatsoever it costs him : infelix puer , atque impar congressus achilli . how his pen hath abused mr. ellis of colchester , and other faithfull servants of god in those parts , with base calumnies and slanders , the world ( i conceive ) will shortly understand by an expresse from thence : for mr. ellis himselfe writes thus to a friend in london . the aspersions cast on me , and some others here , by mr. edwards , are as false as foule : which because they are a great part of his book and strength , those who are here concerned in it , will , if god please , shortly make reply . page . he affirms that the preceding letter beginning thus : ( p. . ) worthy sir , the consideration of those many , &c. was written to him by a person religious , and cordially affected to the parliament . i know not the man my selfe , and therefore shall not attempt to infringe this testimony of him out of any personall experience which i have of him , or of his wayes : but shall onely referre the reader for his satisfaction , both concerning the man , and the testimony given to him , to this ensuing letter , written by one well enough known to himselfe , to a speciall friend of his about the citie . dearly beloved and much honored in christ , grace , mercy and peace be multiplied to you , and to as many as are enabled by the power of god to look towards sion . as i was hastily perusing a book writ in mr. edwards name , among sever all letters therein contained , i found one written by a person with whom i have more then ordinary acquaintance . in which letter the glory of god , the pure institutions of the lord jesus , with the saints practises , are maliciously abused , as also your selfe not a little concern'd . in consideration of the which , i was not a little prest in my own spirit , neither indeed could i refrain , but needs must declare unto you the person that wrote it ( as he himself acknowledgeth , ) not knowing but it might seem strange unto you , and remain as a burden upon your spirit , that the author of so many falshoods , and , as they appeare to me , palpable untruths , should be ( by such a one as mr. edwards ) termed a man religious , and cordially affected to the parliament . but not to withhold you any longer , his name is josiah ricraft , the same man in whose name the reply to your answer was printed , the which whether he did indite , or no , i will not affirm , only i may thinke , but it matters not much whether he or another did indite it , only this i am confident of , hee is a man so far from ▪ being religious , and cordially affected to the parliament , ( as mr. edwards would make the world beleeve , that i shall , and am able by evident testimonies , yea and by that knowledge i in particular have of him , perspicuously make it appeare ( and had done before this , had i not been extraordinarily prevented ) that he is an enemy to the parliament , state , and kingdome , by concealing , countenancing , & bearing correspondency with such as endevour nothing more then the overthrow of religion & the subjects liberty . at present i shal speak no more cōcerning him , then what i my self distinctly know of him : after he had taken the solemne league & covenant , he did inviolation thereof , conceal a colonell the which came out of the kings army , and from him did receive the kings picture . this colonell not daring to goe abroad in the day time . all this he did declare in my hearing ; nay , during the time this colonell was in town , he did carry , as now hee doth , a great correspondency with one mr. roberts , minister , being one in fellowship with him , whose life this colonel would have taken from him , if i be not misinformed , the which as i am credibly informed , had mr. roberts known of the colonels being in town , he would have endeavoured the hanging of him , & that not without cause , for former discourtesies received from him , too tedious to relate . i shal deferre the naming of him until i am called to testifie what i here declare , the which i hope wil be suddenly . and though he was wisht & desired to discover him , pressing the covenant upon him , yet would he not : i shall at the present , as not desiring to be tedious , present you with one passage more ; it is concerning one who being to goe to oxford with an intent to take up arms for the king , he wel knowing he was a malignant , and would not take the covenant , yet him did he furnish with mony to carry him to oxford , and hath since taken up armes . this i shall through the help of god make appeare to be really true , and will declare his name and where he lived , the which i now forbeare in regard of some friends whom i am not willing in the least to grieve ; were not the glory of god and the kingdoms good interessed in it , i should not at present have mentioned any thing of this nature , but not knowing any way more tending to the vindicatiou of both , i take this method . truly , should i declare unto you how contrary his carriage and conversation is to the gospels rule , i am confident it would sadden the spirits of conscientious men , and cause admiration in those who professe themselves to be followers of our lord jesus . i do assure you , the lord hath so carried on my soul with divine contemplation , and sweet communion & fellowship with the father and the son , that all the unreasonable dealings i have received from him , have not made any impression upon my spirit : only this the righteous god knoweth hath been no small saddening to my spirit , to see his aversnesse of spirit to those who are of his own judgement . but these miscarriages i shall let passe untill a more convenient season , desiring with all my soule the lord may through the glorious and rich discoveries of himselfe powerfully upon his spirit , cause him to be ashamed of his folly , and to own his weaknesses , that the lord may yet be honored by him , and his soule comforted in the day of our lord jesus . and now that god who hath made such rich discoveries , and glorious manifestations of his tender love to you in the son of his love , strengthen you throughout , that you may be able to stand , and withstand all the opposition you shall meet withall from any generation of men , and that you may increase with the increasings of god . and this is the request of him who is your brother in the rock christ , g. c. as to the contents of the letter written to mr. edw. by that religious person , and so cordially affected to the parliament ( as you have heard ) how notoriously false are a great part of them ! as first , that mr. kiffen , and some others , upon their disputes with dr. featley , m. seaman , m. calamy , m. porter , and others , gave out to their members that they had the better , and that m. calamy durst not dispute with them . both which are disavowed by the persons charged , and with certainty of knowledge that the reporter can never prove either the one or the other of them . . the said letter affirmeth , that m. kiffen was left out from that disputation which was held and to be held with m. calamy ▪ &c. whereas it is so far from the truth , that he was left out from this disputation , that earnestly soliciting an exemption from that ingagement , his motion herein was absolutely refused by the rest that were to dispute . . he affirmeth , that the said m. kiffen was put to do the drudgery , to fetch up members scattered to and fro in the countrey &c. this also is as false as falshood it selfe can make a report to be : the said m. kiffen never stir'd a foot out of the citie , further then his own house all the while . . this religious person in the same letter saith , that not onely m kiffen , but others also of them did the like good service ( as hobson the taylor ) in their places . this again is so far from truth , or likelihood of truth , that this hobson he speaks of , with mr. kiffen , were ( amongst others ) made choyce of by their friends to attend the disputation , and to manage their interest in the controversie against their opposers , and therefore could not doe that , besides which there was nothing possible to be done by them , or any others , that can now save the pen of religious i. r. from the pollution and reproach of a false pen . . the said letter advanceth yet further in her way of folly , and affirmeth , that one of their members , whose name is palmer , being recovered , came into their conventicle house , and there before many people said , that physitians left her as they found her . this is a very emphaticall untruth ; the woman never making use of any physitian all the time of her sicknesse . . this letter ( which seems to be gangrena's chiefe favourite among all her fellowes ) being loath that any other should carry away the whetstone from her , pleads for this prize with such an argument , which makes all the quaint inventions , and bold fictions , and daring relations in the book besides , to give place and yeeld the crown . this is a story of a woman that was to be rebaptized ; a story which makes the tale of gargantua and don quixote with his windmils , to look like gospels in comparison of it . it is pitie the relator should either eat or drink , till either he hath proved the truth , or else confessed the untruth of it . this letter boasts what mischiefe it could doe yet further , as when it saith , many such heathenish & atheisticall passages with basenes , i could relate of this man & some of his members , &c. it is very likely that what ever you can do in this kind , you must doe it with basenes , or else let it alone . but indeed you have givē the world a very full account of your great ability to relate what heathenish and atheisticall passages you please of any man . hee that can report and avouch the last mentioned story for a truth , may be confident that his forehead will not fail him in any adventure of impudence whatsoever . for a conclusion , i shal only point you to some few more spots which appeare here and there in the body of the gangrene , which plainly shew the very vitals & inward parts of it to be pestilentially infected ; & i make no question but ere long you will see the whole body of it full of such spots all over , which will plainly bewray the constitution of it to be the poyson of dragons , and gall of asps . pag. . he affirms , that severall sectaries went early to bristoll ( he means since the retaking of it by the parliament , ) and into wales also ; instancing in two , with an &c. viz. one m. bacon , and m. symonds : this m. symonds professeth , that since the recovery of bristoll , he came not neer either bristoll or wales by fourty miles . but if m. edw. comes within fourty miles of the truth , he makes a commendable voyage . i beleeve hee came not neer it by twice fourty , when p. . speaking of great livings , hee calleth them , a thing which their presbyterian souls abhorre . the tenor of the passage is this : he chargeth m. peters , frequently to have preached in citie and countrey , that were it not for livings of two or three hundred pounds a yeare , there would be no difference between the presbyterians and the independents . and glossing this text , addeth , wickedly and maliciously insinuating unto the people , as if presbyterian ministers opposed the way of independency because of great livings , a thing ovr sovls abhor . if his meaning be , that the practice here gently insinuated against them ▪ viz. that the opposing the way of independency because of great livings , is a thing which their soul abhors , not the great livings themselves , i say no more but this ; i wish the rule were as true as the exception : i. that the opposing the way of independency for great livings , were as truly the abhorring of presbyterian souls , as the great livings themselves are not . pag. . he affirms , that one of lilborns eyes was pvt ovt by a pike in the street , immediatly upon his letter comming forth against mr. prynne and the assembly . by the way it seems he hath forfeited his honour of being lieutenant-colonel , by the high crime of writing a letter against m. prynne and the assembly ; yea and all his interest in the honor and gentry of his house and family . but had not m. edw. a great beam in his own eye , he might easily have seen , that neither of lilborns eyes are put out . he is able to see and read twenty untruths and ten in m. edw. book , with the worst of them . that which he reports of him , p. . that hee is reported to bee one , who is a player at cards , either is a false report it self , or at least a report of a report which is false , and so little better . the man protested that he never plaid a game at cards since his coming to london . the rest of the aspersives in the same retinue , as that he is reported to be a man of a loose life , prophaning the lords day in sports , one who will sit long with company at wine and tipling , &c. are grapes growing upon the same thorn . in the page last named , he talks of one thomas moore of lincolnshire , a great sectary and manifestarian : i beleeve m. edw. himself is the greatest manifestarian under heaven . there is no man hath manifested that weaknes of judgement , that strength of malice against the saints , which he hath done . and for thomas moore of lincolnshire , a sectary of that magnitude which hee imports , i no more beleeve there is any such man , then i doe that there is any such woman at brasteed in kent , as he speaks of , p. . . that is a preacher , and that with others breaks bread in her order . mr. saltmarsh in his late booke affirms , that the contrary is knowne to himselfe and all the towne . pag. . he talks of bishop hall , or one of his chaplains , as holding far smaller errors then i ( he means chiefly , in the point of justification , as appears by the context . ) but that i hold any errors in justification , greater then himself , yea or any so great by many degrees , who yet ( i make no question ) presumes himself as orthodox in the point as either the bishop he speaks of , or any of his chaplains , will be a thousand times said , before once prov'd , either by himself , or all his party of godly orthodox presbyteriall ministers . pag. . of his dedicatory epistle , his forehead serves him to abuse the honorable houses of parliament with this loud untruth , that there are eleven meetings , at least , of sectaries , in one parish in this citie . what shall be given unto thee ▪ or what shall be done unto thee , thou false tongue ? sharp arrowes of the mighty , and coales of juniper a . setting aside the presbyterian meetings , confident i am , that he cannot find the one halfe of that number he speaks of , of meetings of all other sectaries , in any parish whatsoever in the citie . but this saying of his needs not be melancholy for want of company ; it hath brethren enough in the iniquitie of it . and because the pages of his book are not large enough to contain the shameless untruths he hath a minde to utter , he quarters them here and there in the margent of it . you shall find two together in the margent of the second and third pages of his preface . here first he saith , that overton an independent book-seller boasted that an answer ( to his antapologie ) was in the presse . whereas he onely said ( and that without boasting ) that there was an answer to it entred in their hall-booke , and ready for the presse . . he addes iniquitie to iniquitie ; and saith , that eaton an independent , milliner , said the same words , who yet spake not so much ; for he neither said that it was in the presse , nor yet that it was entred into the hall book . and who should report , that some of john goodwins church reported , that some of his church-members preached for him , because he was answering the antapologie ; i believe he no more knoweth , then declareth . and why he calls eaton an independent milliner , i believe , if he were called to an account , he could give none ; but like unto himselfe , i. either some vagrant and loose report that he was so ; or some poore reason , degrees of logique latitude from a sufficient proofe or demonstration . but the saying is , tractant fabrilia fabri . pag. . speaking of mr burroughs opinion formerly mentioned , which he makes the error in his catalogue , he brands it with this false mark in his margin : this is an error destructive to the power of civill magistrates , and safety of common-wealths , in divers cases . the truth is , that the opinion , . is no error , but a truth : and . so farre from being an error destructive , either to the power of civill magistrates , or safety of common-wealths , in any case or cases whatsoever ; that it is a truth of a soveraigne importance , both for the support and strengthning of the magistrates power ; as also for the safety of common-wealths . the smoak of the exception made against it , was before scattered . and if he were examined how he came by that story , p. . concerning mr kiffen ( formerly spoken of ) viz. that he should tell the church , that he would relate the whole matter ( concerning the womans recovery that had been anointed ) i feare he could hardly prove , that he came honestly by it . the man assures me , that there was no such undertaking , nor relation made by him at all . reader , i have ( for the present ) given thee onely a taste of mr edwards grapes : yet sufficient ( i presume ) to convince thee , that his vine , is of the vine of sodom , and of the fields of gomorrah ; his grapes , grapes of gall ; his clusters bitter ; his wine , the poyson of dragons , and the cruell venome of aspes a . i professe truly , that i have not read one quarter of the book , as yet ; nor know whether i shall ever care to read it thorough or no . the far greatest part of the particulars detected , were observ'd by others , and presented unto me . a few daies ( i make no question ) will give thee more light , wherewith to comprehend his darknesse . by that time the boughs of his tree are a little more withered , they will be broken off : the women will come , and set them on fire b . the day will come , and is even at the dore , when there will be scarce one stone left upon another of all this false building , which will not be pull'd downe by the hand of truth . and when the servants of god shall have had the opportunitie to wash off that dirt and filth which mr. edwards hath now cast upon them , gangraena will be found a strumpet , yea and of the race & lineage of that great scarlet whore , which corrupteth the earth with her fornication c . the cretians are alwaies lyers , evill beasts ▪ slow bullies . this testimony is true : wherefore rebuke them sharply , that they may be sound in the faith d . i trust that this brief answer , will contribute a proportionable influence toward this blessed effect upon mr edwards , and helpe to make him more sound both in faith , and manners also . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a luk. . . sect. . sect. . a antap. p. sect. . sect. . a gen. . . b sam. . , . sect. . luke . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . dan. . . a si oriantur dissensiones & schismata in ecclesiâ , in culpâ sunt qui falsam sidem defendūt , non qui impugnāt : nec refert utri sint multitudine superiores . ecclesia namque nec judicat ipsa secundū multitudinem , nec judicanda est secundū majoris numeri consensū , sed secundū manifestam veritatem in sacris scripturis expressam , musc. loc. tit. de eccle. sect. . b antapol . p. . sect. . a see his preface , p. . a luk. . , ● . sect. . a cor. . . b verse . c amos . . gangrena . pref. p. . sect. . a joh. . . b tim. . . sect. . compassion . samaritan . p. a quod in omnibus vocandi rationibus deus peccatori , quid debeat non modo oftendit , sed & omni invitato , vocato det posse illud praestare , & salvari , si velit : adeo ut si non salvatur is , qui generalissimâ tantum ratione invitatus est , sit prorfus inexcusabilis coràm deo. id expresse docet paulus . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( inquit ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} manifestum factum est in ipsis , ( gentilibus scilicet ) deus enim manifestum fecit , &c. ita utinexcusabiles ipsi sint . at certè , si , etsi maximè voluissent , non potuissent , fuissent excusabiles , &c. paulus testardus , eiren. p. . thesi . sect. . sect. . a pag. . he talkes of farre smaller errors in justification then mine . sect. . a the reader for his further satisfaction about calvins iudgement in this controversie , is earnestly desired to peruse the th chapter , as also the , , & . sections of the fift chapter of the first part of my treatise of justification . a deut . . cor. . . &c. one affirmative testimony is more valid in law , then many negative . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a mat. . ▪ . a rom. . . b john . . the proverb saith , is is an evill bird that defileth his own nest . a joh. . . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a h saith , that this & others of mr. burroughs principles and rules about toleration , will bee found both unsound and weak , fit to take women and weak persons with , but not to satisfie any scholar . the truth is , that many principles , the more sound & strong they are , are like to prove the lesse satisfactory to such scholars as he . engag'd men are ususually more offended at a truth , then at an error wth opposeth them in their way . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . sect. . a psal . , sect. . sect. . a deut. . , . b isa. . . c revel. . . d tit. . , . the banner of justification displayed: or; a discourse, concerning the deep, and important mystery of the justification of a sinner wherein the severall causes thereof, being both numerous and various, are from the first to the last diligently enquired after, and their severall contributions towards so great and happy a work, clearly distinguished, and assigned to their proper causes (respectively.) and more particularly is shewed, how god, how the grace of god, how the decree of god, how the soveraign authority of god; how christ, how the active obedience [of] christ, how the passive obedience of christ, how the resurrection of christ, how the knowledge of christ; how the spirit of god, how faith, how repentance, how works, how remission of s[in,] how the word, how the minister of the word, how the p[ope?] himself which is justified, may all truly, though upon severall accounts, and after different manners, be sayed to justifie. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing g a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the banner of justification displayed: or; a discourse, concerning the deep, and important mystery of the justification of a sinner wherein the severall causes thereof, being both numerous and various, are from the first to the last diligently enquired after, and their severall contributions towards so great and happy a work, clearly distinguished, and assigned to their proper causes (respectively.) and more particularly is shewed, how god, how the grace of god, how the decree of god, how the soveraign authority of god; how christ, how the active obedience [of] christ, how the passive obedience of christ, how the resurrection of christ, how the knowledge of christ; how the spirit of god, how faith, how repentance, how works, how remission of s[in,] how the word, how the minister of the word, how the p[ope?] himself which is justified, may all truly, though upon severall accounts, and after different manners, be sayed to justifie. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. printed by e.c. and are to be sold by h ever[sden ..., london : ] "to the reader" signed john goodwin. with marginal notes and a final advertisment leaf. copy has title page cropped with loss of title and imprint; text cropped at head with loss of text. reproduction of the original in the sion college library, london. eng justification -- early works to . a r (wing g a). civilwar no the banner of justification displayed: or; a discourse, concerning the deep, and important mystery of the justification of a sinner: wherein goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion banner of justification displayed : or ; a discourse , concerning the deep , and important mystery of the justification of a sinner : wherein the severall causes thereof , being both numerous and various , are from the first to the last diligently enquired after , and their severall contributions towards so great and happy a work , clearly distinguished , and assigned to their proper causes ( respectively . ) and more particularly is shewed , how god , how the grace of god , how the decree of god , how the soveraign authority of god ; how christ , how the active obedience christ , how the passive obedience of christ , how the resurrection of christ , how the knowledge of christ ; how the spirit of god , how faith , how repentance , how works , how remission of si●… , how the word , how the minister of the word , how the p●●●… himself which is justified , may all truly , though upon severall accounts , and after different manners , be sayd to justifie . by his knowledge shall my righteous servant iustifie many , isa. . . solet scriptura , cum ad unum effectum multae causae concurrunt , modo uni , modo alteri , effectum tribuere . chamier . panstrat . tom. . l. . c. . §. . scire , est per causas scire . felix , qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas . london , printed by e. c. and are to be sold by h. evers●●… at the sign 〈◊〉 the 〈…〉 brief passages of scripture clearly shewing , and proving , that all the particulars mentioned in the title page , as causes of justification , or contributors hereunto , are acknowledged , and supposed , for such in the scriptures themselves . [ it is god that justifieth , rom. . . being justified freely by his grace , rom. . . this is the will , [ i. the decree , or fixed pleasure ] of him that sent me , that every one which seeth the son , and believeth on him , should have everlasting life [ and consequently , be antecedently justified . ] it is god that justifieth : who is he that condemneth ? [ meaning , that his authority in justifying is soveraign and paramount , and so lyable to no reverse ] or contradiction , rom. . , . but if while we seek to be justified by christ , &c. gal. . . for as much as yee know that yee were not redeemed [ and consequently , not justified ] with corruptible things — but with the precious blood of christ , as of a lamb without blemish , and without spot , pet. . . much more being now justified by his bleod , rom. . . — and was [ i. christ was ] raised again for our justification , rom. . . by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justifie many , isa . . but yee are washed , but yee are sanctified , but yee are justified , in the name of the lord jesus , and by the spirit of our god , cor. . . therefore being justified by faith , we have peace with god , &c. rom ▪ . . john did baptize in the wilderness , and preached the baptisme of repentance for remission of sins , mar. . . yee see then how that by works a man is justified , &c. jam. . blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven , and ●●ose sins are covered [ i. who is justified , as appears from v. . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rom. . . — and how shall they believe in him [ and consequently be justified ] of whom they have not heard . so then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god , rom. . . and how shall they hear , without a preacher , rom. . . take heed unto thy self , and unto thy doctrine : for in doing this , thou shalt both save thy self , and them that hear thee [ and consequently , shalt justifie both , in as much as salvation presupposeth justification ] tim. . . even we have believed in christ , that we might be justified by the faith of christ , gal. . . ] having charged the english tilenus with making the tryers to ask such questions of those that come before them , as in all probability never came into all their thoughts to ask , upon this his probable mis-de meanour ( himself making no more of it ) he advanceth this radamanthine and severe sentence , both against him , and me ; which ( sayth he ) is such a piece of impudence , as no one hath ventured to imitate him in , but that ishmael of colemanstreet , whose hand being against all men , hath provoked all men , even to the common pamphleter , to lift up an hand against him . the best is , ( in case mr. hickman's reproach here , could , without the help of the figure {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , be admitted for true ) that jeremy of jerusalem was a man of strife , and a man of contention to the whole earth , as well as that ishmael of colemanstreet , and yet was a true prophet , and never the less like so to have been for the numerousness of his contests . noah also was a preacher of righteousness , yet his proportion of opposers in the world , far exceeded mine , and the number of those , who embrace my doctrine with their whole hearts , far exceedeth the number of those , who upon such terms received his . yea , our saviour himself testifieth , that in the church and nation of the jews , they who had the more generall approbation and applause , were the false prophets , not the true , luk. . . wo unto them when all men shall speak well of them , for so did their fathers to the false prophets . but because mr. hickman judgeth himself orthodox , in charging me with impudence : what if it be found that the ingredients in the composition of his charge here levied against me , and proclaimed as with sound of trumpet and drum in the ears of the world , be notwithstanding all errors , and broad untruths ? may he not make a covering of shame for his own face of the accusation , which he hath here drawn up against me ? let us fairly examine the case , and with as much favour to the examinate , as he , or his friends , can reasonably expect . first , whereas he chargeth me with imitating his english tilenus , is not here a palpable and un-scholar-like jeofail ? did shemei in reviling david , when his condition was low and mean in the world , imitate mr. hickman , in reproaching a minister of christ being under hatches , and trampled upon by men ; or did not mr. hickman in this action rather imitate him ? he that acteth before another , what ever his action be , doth not imitate him that followeth him in the same kind of acting , but on the contrary , he imitates who follows the example or pattern that have been set before . if there be any similitude between tilenus and me , in our respective handling of mr. hickmans tryers , tilenus must bear the crime of imitation , not i , who was before him in what was done by me , relating to those his clients . secondly , whereas he chargeth me with venturing to imitate tilenus , in making the tryers to ask such questions of those that come before them , as in all probability never came into all their thoughts to ask : the truth is , that he chargeth me with the crime of such a courage , or boldness , whereof i was never conscious . i never made any venture to imitate tilenus , in such an attempt , as is here charged upon him ; nor did i ever go before him in any such . i no where , either challenge them , or charge them , with asking such questions of those that come before them , which in all probability never came into all their thoughts to ask . if i charge them with asking any questions in the case , they are only such , which themselves and their own consciences know that they do , or did ask frequently , and from time to time . and for the questions which tilenus himself maketh them to ask , as far as i remember , if they were not the same formally , & in terminis , yet they were the same materially and in reality of import , which they were wont to ask . and for a man in his own words , to report another mans sense uttered in his , is no such venterous piece of impudence : it is rather a piece of this calculation , so to call it . but , thirdly , whereas my accuser chargeth me with having my hand against all men ; neither is he orthodox in this , unless he takes sanctuary under the wing of the good figure synechdoche , which hath had a priviledge time out of mind , to grant a pardon to men for this delinquency in speaking , viz , when meaning only some , they say , all ; or , intending only a part , yet mention , or name , the whole . for otherwise , mr. hickman himself is ( doubtless ) a man , though ( to measure him by himself , and so to please him , if it may be ) one of a thousand . yet my hand ( certain i am ) was never against him ; no , nor his against me , that i know of , untill mr. pierce of late touched him , where ( it seems ) he was very tender , and hereby provoking his choler and scholarship together , put him into an athletick passion : under the fiery and fierce conduct whereof , in his march , his hap was to fall foul upon me , and so it fell to my share also to feel , as well as others , the weight of his learned faculty in reproaching . but it is a good sign on the truths side , when her enemies retreat , and flee to their patheticals . for this argues that their intellectuals fall short , and that their heart serveth them not to confide in them any further . yet i cannot but mention this by the way , as matter of sad consideration , although of too too frequent occurrency ; that men , who have competent gifts and parts of wit and learning , whereby they might serve their generation , and be usefull unto many , yet suffering themselves to be over-grown with a conceit , that these gifts and parts are far greater then they are , they hereby stifle their opportunity , and give hostages unto sin , and satan , that they will never do any great matters against them . such a conceit as this , is a dead fly in their oyntment , causing it to cast forth a stinking savour , and betrayeth them into many , and sometimes into sad , inconveniencies . but to return to mr. hickman ; although the figure synechdoche interposeth with the best of her authority for the salvage of his , both credit , and conscience , in charging me with the being of my hand against all men ; yet this figure will prove but a cypher unto him for any such service , if his words in the charge be but strictly interpreted . for in true construction and propriety of speech , his hand is with men , and for men , not against them , which i● stretched out , or lifted up , against their errours only . these are they that are against them , and they that wage war against these , fight on their side . i am not conscious to my self that my hand hath been against any man in ●ny other sense , then this . nor is my severe accuser able ( i believe ) to prove the contrary : however , though i am no great lawyer , yet ( me-thinks ) charges and accusations against men should be of little value , or force , which cannot be verified , or made good , but by the favour of figures . yet , fourthly , ( and lastly , for this ) the remaining article of his charge [ viz. that i have provoked all men , even to the common pamphleter , to lift up an hand against me ] will keep him out of new jerusalem also , without the mediation of the sayd figure , senechdoche . see revel. . . and revel. . . i know it would be offensive to the gentleman , if i should relate how many letters , and messages otherwise , of thankfull acknowledgments of the grace of god given unto me , for the clearing of those doctrines , of election , reprobation ▪ &c. and of christian encouragements , to proceed in my way , &c , i have received time after time , from severall persons of considerable worth , for godliness , and knowledge , inhabiting in several parts of the nation , some of them ministers of the gospel , and others of them studients in the university of good standing , &c. but because such a story as this , would ( i presume ) be a heavy burthen to a tender and weak shoulder , i shall forbear it . in the mean time , mr. hickman must give me leave to tell him , and all the world this plain story , viz , that i know certainly , inf●ll●bly , above and beyond all possibility of mistake , that he spake not by the spirit of god , when he said , that my hand hath provoked all men even to the common pamphleter , &c. he is an athenian , and seems to have some sympathy in blood with him , that ●ayd claim to all the ships that came into pireus , as his own . but he may know , if he please , that there are seven thousand ( and seven thousand more to them twice told ) amongst the israel of god in this nation , who either never bowed the knee of their judgment , to the bloody molech of his reprobation , nor , to any of his confederates , or else have repented of that superstitious and unadvised homage . but what emphaticall reach , or design he should have in mentioning the poor common pamphleter disparaging-wise ( as it is evident enough that he doth ) and yet make him one of the retinue of those , whom i have provoked to lift up their hands against me , i verily understand not ▪ doth he present him as an index , or significator of the manners , quality , or condition of the whole retinue ? would he have an estimate made by him , who , or what sort and kind of persons they are , whom i have so provoked , as to move them to lift up their hand against me ? or is it his mind , in singling him out from his company , and shewing him personally and particularly , to say unto his reader , crimine ab uno disce omnes ; i. know this vile persons and know all the rest . i can hardly think that he should understand himself no better , then thus to prevaricate with his interest and cause , and to associate himself , and his best-respected friends with the common pamphleter . and yet i am to seek what other treasure he should think to make of him here . however , there is somewhat in the old saying ; noscitur ex comite , qui non dignoscitur ex se . mens wayes and manners when they hidden lye , are oft betrayed by their company . if those whom i have provoked , make one genius with the common pamphleter , res mea est in vado , i am in no danger of just blame for doing that , by which they have been provoked . for that saying of seneca will at this turn guard me round about : recti argumentum est , pessimis displicere . the worst men are commonly most displeased with that which is best . and thus we see with how great weakness , and unworthyness , mr. hickman hath quitted himself in levying the sore charge mentioned , against a person , that never did him , nor thought him the least harm . but in the passage now examined , he hath only chastized me with his rods : elsewhere he makes a scourge for my back of scorpions . for thus my transcription reporteth him . and indeed a spirit of most childish insultation seems to have possessed as many as have lift up an english pen against the orthodox in this quinquarticular controversie . i 'le instance only in mr. john goodwin , who in the preface of his triumviri , sayth , that he hath not met with any thing in the writings of any , or of all the three men contesting with him , which had in the least shaken his confidence concerning the truth of the things by him asserted , or that for the least space of time put him to any stond , or loss in his understanding concerning them , or to seek what to answer to any thing they offer or object against any of them . which lines the greatest charity must look upon as so much vapouring rhetorick dropt from his pen in the absence of judgment and conscience , or as an essay of the spartans valour , who being struck down by a mortall blow , used to stop their mouthes with earth , that they might not be heard to quetch , or groan , thereby to affright their fellows , or animate their enemies . here is work enough for all day : but , . i perceive the truth of the old saying is not yet out of date ; obsequium amicos , veritas odium parit . comply , and friends thou shalt create , speak truth , and look for mortall hate , i perceive , if instead of speaking the truth in the passage cited by mr. hickman , i should have comported with him in his sense and notion , and have sayd that the three men had given my confidence a mortall wound , and had objected such things against my tenents , which put me to a stand , and that i knew not which way to turn me for an answer unto them , or the like , this might have purchased me the right hand of his fellowship , and have restored me to the synagogue of the orthodox , out of which i was cast long since , and have remained an out-cast severall years . when the lord christ had said unto the jews , that god was his father , and that he knew him , which they did not , this saying ( as it seems ) was ill resented by them , their desire being that he should unsay it , and that he should not assume unto himself , any other , or any more knowledge of god , then what they had . if i should say , ( sayth christ ) i know him not , i should be a lyar like unto you : but i know him , &c. john . . if i should have sayd , that i met with that in the writings of the three men , of whom mr. hickman speaks , which did put me to a stand , &c. i should herewith have pleased him , because in so saying , i should have complyed with him , and made my self like unto him . but , . mr. hickman arraigning me for the high misdemeanour of speaking untruth , ( for his charging me to have written , as i did , in the absence of judgment and conscience , amounteth to no less ) he should have done well to observe the due process of law and reason , and first have made substantiall proof of the crime , or matter of fact objected , before he had proceeded to a sentence of condemnation ; and have produced some argument , or objection , one , or more , out of the w itings of some of the three men , which he should substantially prove did put me to a stond or loss in my understanding what to answer . if he could name any such argument , or ob●ection from any of the said men , that to his knowledge did the feat , which he presumes was done , though i deny it ( i mean , which did put me to a stond , &c. ) this would not justifie him , unless he could give a sufficient account of such his knowledge unto others . for the rule is ; non esse , & non apparere , aquiparantur in jure : that which is not , and that which appears not , are of the same consideration in law . and yet i judge it an easie matter for him to give an account of all the knowledge he hath in this kind . but the law of conscience and christianity , forbids the sacrificing of any mans reputation , at the loudest instance of probabilities , or conjectures ; at least or such , which have no more weight , or reason in them , then those , upon which mr. hickman hath offered up mine upon the service , whether of his pleasure , or displeasure . but if either he , or any of his colleagues in judgment , could , and would be pleased , to afford me the inter-view of any such argument , or objection , against my tenents ( by-named erroneous ) whether out of the writings of some of the three men , or out of their own treasuries , or out of the abundance of any of their judgment , which would put me to such a stond , that i should not remove , or to such a loss in my understanding , that i could never recover , or repaire , they would be the best benefactors unto me in the good things of this world , that i have met with these many years ; especially they would have been such unto me , had they be-friended me in that kind heretofore , whilst , and when , i was more capable of the courtesies and benefactures of the world , then now i am , expecting daily to remove into that climate , where the sun-shine of this world hath no warming , or cheering influence at all . for certain i am , that those tenents , from under the conscience whereof i might well have been delivered by the means specified , have divided between the world , and me , and kept many the good things thereof from me , by reason of their insupportableness unto the greater part of men , and more especially unto the great men in the state of my sojourning , and to those , who by their consent ( yea , they love to have it so ) exercise dominion over their faith , under the importune claim of being orthodox , and sound in their judgments from the one end of them even unto the other , in matters appertaining unto god . i have neither any disposition within , nor occasion without , to turn plaintiff against the world ; a man with a competency of wisdome may very well be content with my portion in it . for my good god , ( etiam in vitâ mundi minerva ) hath fed me , and mine , with food convenient , yea , and cloathed and harboured us accordingly . and the truth is , that for things greater then these , it is best receiving them at the resurrection . or , . if it be not matter of untruth ( in my words of his angry observation lately mentioned ) wherewith , and for which , my accuser intended to humble me , but rather the subject matter , or inward thought , imported in the words , as that i should arrogate unto my self an attainment so incredible and rare , as not to be put to a stond , or be at a loss in my understanding , what to answer to any thing i had met with in any the writings of the three men ; if this ( i say ) be the sword that passed through the soul of my accuser , and be apprehended by him so highly criminall , as to deserve that heaped measure of indignation , which he hath troubled his learning to pour upon it , i shall , for the composure of his spirit , and for the dissolving of the unhappy appearance of so much guilt , where none was , administer unto him that well-approved dosis of augustine ; non est arrogantia , sed ●ides , praedicare ●a , quae accepisti : upon occasion , to professor declare , what a man hath received of undeserved favour and bounty from god , is no point of arrogance ▪ o● pride , but of faith . and the truth is that god hath so blessed me in the labour and travail of my soul , about those great points of election , reprobation , the intent , or extent of the death of christ , &c. wherein i have with some diligence , and with no less integrity and simplicity of heart , exercised my self for severall years past , that before the coming forth of any thing printed by the three men against me , i was master of such principles and grounds , partly from the light of nature , and common impressions found in the hearts and consciences of all men concerning god , partly from the writings of learned and worthy men , as well of the contra-remonstrant party , as calvin , beza , musculus , &c. as the remonstrant , but chiefly from the sriptures , by which i was able to give my self present satisfaction , about any thing i met with objected in my way by any of those three men . and i partly believe that mr. hickman himself , though but a young man ( comparatively ) yet conceiveth of himself at not much a lower rate , then to be able without much study to maintain the peace of his present judgment , against all the attempts , that either i in any of my writings , or any other of my judgment , in theirs , have made upon him to disturb him . however if he should make a declaration , or profession of such a tenor , or import , i judging him to be a man of conscience , and sober minded , should not reflect upon him ( nor do i judge it my duty so to do ) as a man speaking that which was not , nor yet conclude him to be a man of a lofty , and confident , arrogating , or self-willed spirit ; much less should i arraign him openly as a person guilty of such misdemeanours . i confess it is very incident to men to abound in their own sense to such a degree , as to presume that they want nothing wherwith to answer any man that shall oppose it . indeed if he should declare , or profess , after this manner , or the like , viz , that he is resolved , whatsoever hath been written , or whatsoever shall be written by any man , or men whatsoever , yea , or whatsoever can be written , in opposition to his present judgment in those points , that yet he will stand by this judgment unto death , this ( i confess ) would put me into thoughts of another nature concerning him . but i have not put him to the trouble of any such consideration as this about me , my profession , with which notwithstanding he vexeth his impatient soul , being of a far different spirit . but . ( and lastly ) as to those words ; and indeed a spirit of most childish insultation , seems to have possessed as many as have lift up an english pen against the orthodox in this quinquarticul●r controversie ; i am reall in believing the truth of the●e words , but not in the meaning of him that wrote them . but admit his sense and meaning in them for truth , never was the spirit of childish insultation , more childishly reproved , or with less authority and power , in respect of the tenor and notion of the reproof . for the credit of that old saying of grave cato , is authentick to this day : turpe est doctori , cum culpa redarguit ipsum ; a burning shame it is , when teachers will reprove , and yet themselves commit the ill . or is there any species of childish insultation , more impertinent and weak , then ante pugnam canere victoriam , to sing victory before the battell be begun , or whilst it is yet with great heat of courage and confidence prosecuted and maintained by the opposite side ? or is there any soloecisme in logick broader , or more illogicall then that which they call , petitio principii , when that is presumed or taken for granted , which is the main question in dispute ? or when mr. hickman takes the honour unto himself , and his party , in the quinquarticular controversie , of being , the orthodox , and more signally and peculiarly such , in the said controversie , doth he not cry , victory , before the battell , or whilst his adversaries , in good order , with their troops unbroken , yea , undaunted , without the loss of so much as an inch of their ground , keep the field ? or is it not by a neer-hand interpretation , the very spirit and quick of the controversie between him , and them , which of the two be the orthodox ? yet mr. hickman gives us this pill to swallow without chewing , that he , and his , have the right end of the staff , are the orthodox , in the points and questions depending . he doth not walk by the king of israels advice unto benhadad ( king. . . ) for he hath but newly girded his ●●arness to him , and yet boasteth as if he were putting i● off . but i would gladly here know of him , how , by what title , or right of claim , he , and his , come to be , the orthodox . i am affraid , they came not to the honour as orderly , or honestly , as aaron did to the priesthood : but that they took it unto themselves , being never called to it by god , or the truth . our saviour even in his own ca●e acknowledgeth equity in that maxime of law , that a mans testimony of , or for , himself , is invalid . if i ( saith he ) bear witness of my self , my testimony is not true . [ i. not true , or valid , in course of law , john . . i never heard , nor can i beleive ( unless mr. hickman , or some of his friends could lend me their faith ) that they hold the title of , orthodox , by any other right of claim , then that by which the jews held that honour , which they received one of another , john . no● do i know any reason why they should bear away the bell of orthodoxisme , from their brethren ( their friendly adversaries ) unless it be because they are the far better ringers , ever and anon , upon occasion , and without occasion , pealing and sounding it in our ears , that they are the orthodox and as the jews of old made great treasure of the●templum domini ▪ and thought themselves safe enough under the p●otection of it , ever and anon having it in their mouths , & importunely urging it to stave off the ●h●e●●nings of the prophets of god against them 〈…〉 ( ●s god himself by his prophet jeremy , expresseth thei d●votion in this kind , jer ▪ . . ) the temple of the lord ▪ the temple of the lord the temple of the lord are th●se . so is the cove●t of orthodoxisme in sacred request with the men we speak of ▪ when they have invested themselves with it they are as in a castle of war ; there is no coming ●t them , no touching them with any charge , or imputation of error , heresie , blasphemy , or the like ; ever and anon in their writings , in their preachings , in their discoursings , they are in effect saying , the orthodox , the orthodox , the orthodox are these , [ pointing at , or meaning , themselves , & those that are of their judgment ] when they have once given such an account of their faith , as to be admitted to commence orthodox , they are as secure from infection in their judgments , with any of those noysome and poysonous creatures errors , mistakes , heresies , as a room built , or seiled with irish oake , is from the danger of any spiders webb . but ( doubtless ) there can no sufficient reason , or ground , in equity , be given , why , pendente lite , the matter being under so sober and serious a dispute between them , and their brethren of opposite judgment , as it is , which of them are the oxthodox , they should antedate the issue and success of the contest , & run away with the crown upon their own heads , before they have won it ; yea , if standers by , and unpartial men may have leave to judge , before they are like to win it . so , then let the word orthodox ( in mr. hickmans passage lately mentioned ) be taken orthodoxly , and signifie those who are ( as i verily believe ) orthodox indeed in the controversie he speaks of ) and then without controversie what he saith is most true ; that a spirit of most childish insultation seems to have possessed as many as have lift up an english pen against the orthodox in the quinquarticular controversie . of the truth of the words in his sense of orthodox , he gave but one instance only and this strained and stretch'd beyond its staple ( as hath been proved . ) but of the truth of them in my sense of the said word , orthodox , i have prevented him ( somewhile since ) with two instances , pregnant , and uncontrolable of two men , both of them great doctors , and men of renown , famous in the congregation of the contra-remonstrants , doctor kendall , and doctor john owen , whom ( in my preface to my triumviri , and in the discourse it self ) i have produced as witnesses ( beyond exception ) against themselves as to the point of the delinquency ( whereof mr. hickman speaks ) i mean most childish insultation : and in this preface have given him measure heaped up , with a third instance in the same kind , of a person highly ( i question not ) esteemed by him , though not so well known unto him , i mean , himself . as for his spartan valour , if his breast be enobled with it , 〈◊〉 if so much , as a spark of it warms his blood ; i doubt not , but he will have an opportunity to shew it , by that time mr. pierce hath done with him . good reader , i have detained thee over-long with an apologeticall story of no great consequence , in respect of my self , nor ( haply ) unto thee . only my hope is , that the person concerned in it with my self , may , through the blessing of god upon his perusall and second thoughts of it , advance somewhat towards the better understanding of himself . i call god for a record upon my soule , that i beare him not the least graine of any grudge , or ill-will ; i love my self better , then not to love him . and that i do not neglect , or despise him : i think the pains i have now bestowed , to set my self streight in his thoughts , will sufficiently witness for me . nay , upon the account of what i have heard concerning the genius and st●ein of his book , i judge him a man commendably pregnant ; and that , if he shall take heed of wronging his strength by over-pragmatickness , and confidence in undertakings , or his conscience by unadvised clashing with the truth , he may make happy earnings of serving his generation . thus far mr. hickman . concerning the sequell of the papers now in thy hand ; the argument , or subject matter of it , is an essay or endeavour to make , . a discovery of all the causes from the first to the last , as far as they are either held forth , or insinuated , in the scriptures , of that mysterious and weighty business , justification . . to assign unto every of these causes ( respectively ) their appropriate interests , interposures , and contributions , in , and about , and towards this great and happy state of a sinner . as there is no ground in christian religion , that hath ( i conceive ) more springs in it of questions and sublime contemplations , then this of justification ; so neither is there any about which the holy ghost ( to my observation ) hath employed so many pens , especially in that variety of discourse , and enquiry . intending only an epitome , or summary comprisall , of the more materiall points , or difficulties relating unto the subject we speak of ; we had no opportunity to insist upon any particular at large . that which was chiefly projected and desired by this little piece , was to make diligent and narrow search after the different co-operations of those numerous causes , which god hath judgded meet to imploy ( ordinarily ) according to their respective natures and capacities of acting , in , and about the investing of a sinner with that great blessedness of justification , which he hath contrived and provided for him . that knowledge in matters of religion , which is so commonly presum'd to be in professors of this age , above the former , is rather a bulk , then a body of knowledge : and though it commonly passeth under the name of knowledge , yet in propriety of speaking it is not so , but rather a confident perswasion , or belief that things are so , or so , as they apprehend them to be . which belief , though it answers the reality and being of that which is believed , & so as it were by accident , be true , yet it is not knowledge , nor doth it argue knowledge , unless the believer understands the reason of what he thus believeth , or at least , a substantiall ground why he thus believeth it . yea , in all matters of doubtfull disputation from the scriptures ; for men to pretend , or alledge the scriptures as a reason , or ground of what they believe , signifieth little , unless they should give a good and substantiall reason to prove that to be the true sense and meaning of the scriptures , which must countenance and confirm their opinion for truth against their adversary . yea , when two shall contend for their respective opinions , being opposite the one unto the other , from , o● by , the authority of the scriptures , if neither of them be able to give any competent account why they interpret , or understand the scriptures so , or so , in comportance with their opinion ( was sometimes it happeneth ) they do but beat the aire with contesting , and both their opinions after the contest , are but in the same condition of uncertainty , or of being rejected , in which they were before . it was a right saying of the philosopher , scire , est per causam scire , knowledge , emphatically so called , is when the reason , or cause of a thing is known , as well as the thing it self . but the reason , or ground of a mans knowledge may be one thing , and reason , or cause of the thing known , quite another . a clear apprehension of the former may produce certainty of knowledge , but it is the like apprehension of the latter , that causeth the more perfect and satisfactory knowledge . in this brief survey of the large field of justification , i have endeavoured perspicuity all along , and i trust with as good success , as brevity is wont to find , or well knows how to expect . the severall causes of justification i have caused to stand forth , one by one , ( respectively ) no one incumbring , or intangling his fellow , yet all conspiring and ioyning hand in hand to help a poor sinner on with his royall robe of justification . this ●iece , though small , may ( i conceive ) do service to some , that in some particulars , are at a loss in their judgments , about the carriage and contrivance of the business of justification in the counsell of god . if thou mee●e●t with any thing , which at first sight doth not approve it self unto thee , lay it aside , but do not cast it away , untill thou hast considerately reviewed it the third time . i have read of a statuary , whose workmanship looked better , and gave better contentment , by time . it may be , now and then i have taken a step or two out of the common road ; but it still hath been for thy profit , not for any pleasure i take in this kind of digression . for in matter of doctrine i never leave the way that is most occupyed by pious , sober , and learned men , as far as i know it , unless it be either to carry some stumbling stone out of it , or else to fetch in somewhat to make it more smooth and pleasant . and i believe it would soon double and trebble my accommodations and comforts in the world , if i could make a covenant with my judgment and conscience to say , amen to all that is sung for orthodox . — sed ut valeas multa dolenda feres . a good conscience will not live upon sacrifices that cost men nothing . but ( good reader ) i have ( i fear ) committed a soloecisme in manners , in keeping thee thus long in discourse by the way . that the ensuing lines shall to any degree ballance thy inconvenience , or repair thy loss , i cannot undertake : in many cases , it lyeth as much , or more , in the patient , then in the agent , what the issue , or success of the action shall be . and i doubt not , but that an ingenious and prudent behaviour towards them , in thy perusall of them will win their heart unto thee , and teach them how to build thee up in thy most holy faith , and ●o to en ich thee with better treasure , then of silver , gold , and precious stones . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of him that justifieth the vngodly , that openeth the eyes of the blind , that raiseth them that are bowed down , that loveth the righteous , be upon thine understanding , judgment , conscience , and memory , in the reading of this little piece , and upon all thy consciencious applications of thy self otherwise , unto the things of thine eternall peace . may . . thine , cordially addicted , both to please thee , and to displease thee , for thy good , john goodwin . a brief explication of the severall causes of justification : as they were mentioned in the title page , and are found in the scriptures ( as was shewed in the next page preceding : ) together with their proper and distinct interests in that great work , and respective contributions towards the raising and production of it . god is the first and great father and founder sect. of that blessed estate , into which a sinner is translated by believing , and which the scripture commonly terms , justification . that which god contributes towards this estate or condition , is ; . will , or a willingness , that such a thing , as the justification of a sinner , should be . . contrivance . . authority . assistance , or help for actuall attainment . first , there was no necessity either of justice , or equity , much less of constraint , lying upon god , ever to permit such a thing , as the justification of a sinner , to be , or such a state , to be so much as once heard , or thought of in the world : therefore he being at liberty in this case , whether he would cause the justification of a creature that had sinned , to be numbred either amongst the things that are , or amongst the things that are not , and there being none but he , or without him , able to umpire , or determine this great affair ; evident it is , that he gave his consent unto it , and that without his contribution of will and good pleasure towards the being of it , it never had had being but in his own understanding only , where the world of pure possibles , and things that might have been , but never actually shall be , as well as the world of things that are , and of things that shall be , is s●ituated . secondly , god contributes to the said happy effect of the sinners justification , contrivement also ; and this . in respect of the nature or form of the thing it self . . of such things , or means , which render it fecible or producible with the salvage of his own honour , as well in point of wisdome , as of justice . . and lastly , in respect of such means by which it may be actually attained by the sinner . . the nature , or form of that justification we speak of , consists in remission of sins ( as is more largely proved in the sequel of the discourse ) and this by divine contrivement and disposure only . . god projecteth the method , means , and carriage of all things requisite for the orderly and regular fecibleness , or producibility of it ; as , that his only begotten son should take flesh of a virgin , and become man ; that he should take upon him the form of a servant ; that he should be delivered up , or left unto the wills of sinfull , wicked , and malicious men , and so be obnoxious to suffer an ignominious and painfull death ; that having suffered death , he should lye three dayes and three nights in the grave , and then rise again ( to omit severall other particulars in this kind ) without which , could , or should it be supposed , that he would , or might have justified a sinner ; it would , or must have been without such a declaration , or manifestation , at least , of the glory both of his justice and wisdome therein , as with which he hath now contrived it by the method and means specified . . and lastly , god hath projected likewise ( and this with an eye too , to the glory of both those attributes now mentioned ) the way , and means how the sinner may come to interess himself in the blessed estate of this justification ; as , viz. by hearing the gospel preached , the counsell of god concerning his justification opened , by understanding , considering , and believing it , with a sound and living faith , and such which is operative by love . the scripture gives a loud and distinct sound of all these things , and somewhat further of them hereafter . thirdly , god contributeth yet further towards the justification of a sinner , by his soveraign authority : for by means hereof , that law , or decree , according to the tenor , and by vertue of which , the sinner is justified ( of which somewhat more presently ) becomes inviolable , uncontrollable , and not lyable to any over-rulement , or nullification , by any power or authority whatsoever : according to that of the apostle paul ; it is god that justifieth : who is he that condemneth ? rom. . . meaning , that there is no person , or creature whatsoever , that hath any authority or power to recind , or make invalid that act , or rather , that law of god , wherein , and according unto which he justifieth a sinner , which nevertheless might be done , and so the justification of the believing sinner fall to the ground , and his person , notwithstanding his justification by god , be lyable to condemnation , if the authority of god , by which he is justified , were subordinate , and not soveraign , or supream . . and lastly , god contributeth towards the justification of a sinner , in actu excercito , that reall help and assistance by his spirit , in conjunction with other means of ●n externall nature , by which the sinner is enabled to believe in jesus christ , and this with a living and operative faith , and so by vertue of that decree , or law of his , concerning justification , he that believeth in my son jesus christ , is , or shall hereby be , justified , he comes to be interessed in that state of blessedness ( as david terms it ) i mean , justification . sect. secondly , the grace of god , as it importeth the divine attribute commonly known by that name ( for sometimes the word signifieth the act , or acting of this attribute , and otherwhile the happy success , or effect of this acting ) contributeth towards the justification of a sinner , as it effectually disposeth him to shew kindness and do good , where there is no preceding merit , nor any provocation , motive , or inducement administred , why he should either shew the one , or do the other ; and more particularly , as it thus disposeth him , to give his only begotten son , unto those , to whom he was no wayes indebted or engaged for any courtesie , and to impute faith for righteousness unto [ that is , to justifie ] a believing sinner , who hath deserved no favour or respects of love , either in this kind , or any other , from him ; but the contrary . in this respect and consideration , we are sayd to be justified freely by his grace , rom. . tit. . . and to be saved by grace , eph. . . we are sayd to be justified freely , [ or gift-wise , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] by his grace , not so much ( i conceive ) if at all , because we are justified upon the account of the satisfaction made by christ for our sins in his death : in this respect , we may rather be sayd to be justified righteously , or justly , then freely , & by grace : but we are sayd to be justified freely by the grace of god , because jesus christ , by whom we are justified , and this justly , and righteously on gods part , was given freely and out of meer grace by god , to bring this great blessedness upon us , we having no wayes , not only not obliged him to do any such great and worthy thing for us , but on the other hand , wholly dis-obliged him from us as his creatures , and provoked him by our rebellion against him . so that in strictness of notion , the grace of god , by which we are sayd to be freely justified , is not meerly , or simply grace , but in the apostles emphaticall expression , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( rom. . ) that is , grace in her greatest super-redundancy , and height of exaltation . to do good , where , or from whence , none hath been received , is the genuine property of grace ; to do good against evill , or where , and from whence injury and unkindnesses have been received , is the property of grace wel advanced , and of considerable growth and strength in the soul : but to do the greatest good , which the doer is capable of doing , where , and from whence , he hath received the greatest evill , which he is capable of suffering , is the property of grace {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( as it were ) overgrown , and magnifying it self above it self , in any limited or created perfection . this is a true and lively character of that grace , by , from , or through , which ( as the scriture speaks ) we are justified and saved . so then the grace of god justifieth us , as it moved and prevailed with him , first by the gift of jesus christ , to put himself into a capacity of justifying us , as , or though , sinners and offenders : and . by acting according to this capacity , to , and in , our actuall justification . thirdly justification may be attributed to the decree sect. of god [ i mean , to the decree of god concerning it ] because , or as , this ratifieth and establisheth it , according to the terms , on which it is granted , and taketh place . this is that , which maketh faith in jesus christ available and effectuall unto justification , which giveth vertue and force unto it [ i mean , unto faith ] for the production and raising of so glorious and blessed an effect , as the justification [ and consequently , the salvation ] of a sinner is . this is the will [ i. the pleasure , purpose , or decree ] of him that sent me , that every one which seeth the son , and believeth on him , may have everlasting life , [ which includes his justification ▪ john . . by the way , these words in this passage , which seeth the son , do not express any essentiall part of the will , or decree of god , concerning either the justification , or salvation of a sinner , but are inserted by christ occasionally only , viz. because the jews , with whom he now reasoned , had the corporeall or externall sight of him , and yet believed not on him , v. . without which he affirmeth unto them ( in the place cited ) that such a sight of him would stand them in no stead , as to matter of justification , or salvation ; because the will of god required of men , faith in him , as well with the sight , as without the sight of him , in order to the obtaining of this . for that the corporeall beholding of christs person , is not necessary , by any decree of god , or otherwise , either for the justification , or salvation of men , is evident by those words of christ unto thomas , thomas , because thou hast seen me , thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed , joh. . . now there is no blessedness [ of man ] without justification , rom. . . , . so then it is the decree , purpose , will , or pleasure of god that gives being unto justification , in that way wherein , and upon those terms whereon , it is now obtained . faith in christ , considered in it self , and apart from the decree of god in that behalf , although it be a means , or condition , of the best and most proper complexion , or consideration , for god to entertain , or pitch upon in a decree for justification , yet would it not be a proper , or sufficient means to justifie any man ; because , in such a consideration ( i mean , as separated , or divided from the justifying decree of god ) as it hath neither any naturall , nor morall dignity , or worth commensurable to so high and sacred an effect , as justification ; so neither would , or could it have any instituted , or superadded authority from any other hand whatsoever , wherby to carry , or atchieve it : whereas , if it be meet to suppose , that the justifying decree of god , could , or would have joyned it self , or taken into communion with it self , any other thing , habit , or act ; as suppose , love , humility , patience , or what ever , besides faith in christ , for the work of justification ; this , by vertue of the soveraign authority , or force of the divine institution , or decree , in conjunction with it , would have justified all those , in whom they had been found . those ordinances , vestments , ceremonies , and observations recorded and described , levit. . and elsewhere , as enjoyned by god under the law , for the creation and consecration of aaron and his successors , together with the inferiour priests of the tribe of levi , into their respective offices of the leviticall priesthood , were , simply and in themselves considered , very comely and proper for the investiture and making of priests of this order , yet would no use , or application of them , to any person , or persons , of what tribe , or family soeve● , have made any priest , to serve at gods altar , either with acceptation unto him , or benefit unto the people , had there not a divine institution , or law from god , interceded for the authorizing , or validating of these things , to the making , o● constituting of such priests : in which respect , the law is sayd to make men high priests ( heb. . . ) and consequently , may as well be sayd to make priests of the inferiour order likewise . in like manner , though the●e be an aptitude in faith in christ , above any other grace , or qualification , for the justification of a sinner ; yet that which makes it actually and effectually justifying , is the decree , or will of god in that behalf . yea , the death of christ it self would not be justifying , as now it is , did not the will of god interpose for the authorizing of it in that kind ; according to what we read , heb. . . by the which will [ viz. of god ] we are sanctified through the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all . so that the offering , of it self , of the body of jesus christ , doth not sanctifie [ and by the same reason , doth not justifie ] men , but as appointed , or ordained by the will of god hereunto ; or ( to speak more warily , and properly ) not without the authoritative concurrence of the will of god with it for the exhibition of such a benefit , or blessing unto the world . sect. fourthly , the authority of god , being ( as hath been sayd ) soveraign and supream , and so the act , award , and determination of it , not obnoxious to any defeisance , check , or annulment , by any other authority whatsoever , contributes unto the justification of a sinner ( i mean , unto the justification , which himself hath contrived , and declared , for such , in his word ) full , and finall , and irreversible ratification and establishment . this is that which the apostle cleerly supposeth , or implies , where he demands , who shall lay any thing to the charge of gods elect ? [ i. e. of those who believe , as is evident ] it is god that justifieth ; as if he should say : if it were any other but god , who should justifie them , although in the same way wherein god now justifieth them , yet might their justification be repeatable , at least by god , and further matter of accusation might be layd to their charge . but now god being he that justifieth them , and there being none above him , nor yet equall unto him in authority , the●e is no fear that their justification should be obstructed , recinded , or made invalid by any whosoever ; or that any further crime , or matter of guilt should be charged upon them , that should be of force by any equitable law whatsoever , or otherwise , to condemn them . sect. fifthly , christ , as god , may be sayd , to justifie in all those considerations , or respects , wherein justification hath been ascribed unto god : yea , being one and the same god , in nature and essence with the father , he acteth and doeth all the same things , in reference to the creature , in conjunctiou and communion with him . secondly , being {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , god , and man , or man subsisting in the humane nature personally united to the godhead , by the willing offering up of himself as a lamb without spot , in sacrifice unto god the father , he made attonement for sinners , in such a sense , wherein the scripture is to be understood , when it so speaketh , notwithstanding his justice , and perfect hatred of sin ; yea , notwithstanding his threatning of adam , and all his posterity with death , in case of his sinning . the death of a person of that transcendent worth and dignity , was in true esteem , and so judged by the un-erring understanding and wisdome of god , a valuable and equitable consideration , why he should actually , and without any other thing intervening , pardon the ●in of the world ( as it is called , joh. . . ) that is , the sin of adam , as imputed , or communicated in the guilt of it , unto all his posterity , together with all the actuall sins of all such of his posterity as should believe in him . to say that christ by his sufferings merited either the justification , or salvation , of those who should believe in him , as it is no scripture expression , so neither is it exegeticall , or explicative of any scripture expression , nor ( as far as at present my memory serveth me ) expressive of any scripture notion : and however , it is too narrow and scant an expression of that grace of of god in the death of christ , herein commended by him both unto men and angels ; unless we shall exclude from this grace all infants dying in infancy , or before they are arriv'd at a capacity of believing . and as it is not so proper to say , that the blood of bulls and goats , &c. under the law merited those leviticall purgations , or sanctifications , which yet they who were ceremonially unclean , obtained by them ; as to say , that they were a competent and sufficient satisfaction , and so esteemed by god , for such uncleannesses , and so dissolved the guilt contracted by them ; in like manner , it is more agreeable to scripture , both notion , and phrase , and to the nature of the thing it self , to say , that christ , in , or by his death , being so highly considerable , as it was , made , or gave , satisfaction for the sins of men , and hereby made way for the pardon and remission of them by god , then to say , that by his death he merited the pardon of these sins , or the justification of a sinner . for , in propriety of speech , a person is not sayd to merit any thing for another , but for himself only . when a man hath unjustly taken away any thing from another , or hath any way injured him , his friend , by giving a reasonable , or valuable consideration to the person injured for the damage sustained by him , may properly be sayd to make satisfaction for him , or for the wrong done by him ; by reason whereof he is in equity free from being impleaded , or moles●ed by law , or otherwise , by him , to whom he had done the wrong . but it is somewhat improper to say , that a man in this case by making satisfaction for his friend , merited that freedome for him . so when a man gives a price , or summ of money , for the ransome of a captive , it is not usuall nor proper to say , that hereby he meriteth his liberty . a man is very unproperly sayd to merit that which he purchaseth at a price , whether for himself , or for another . now that which christ in , or by his death contributeth towards the justification of a sinner , is frequently in the scriptures expressed under the notion of a purchase , of a price payed , of a ransome , redemption , &c. but no where , of merit . — and yee are not your own : for yee are bought with a price [ meaning , out of the hand and power , and from under the guilt , of sin , by the blood of jesus christ , whose therefore you are by right of purchase , to honour and serve him . ] cor. . . see also the following chapter , v . with pet. . . so mat . . and mar. . . — and to give his life a ransome for many . so again , who gave himself a ransome for all men , tim. . so also ; who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all iniquity , tit. . . so christ hath redeemed us , &c. gal. . . and hast redeemed us to god . and revel . . see also rom. . . cor. . . eph. . . col. . . heb. . . &c. and besides , i do not see any reason why it may not be as truly , and properly sayd , that god the father , in giving his only begotten son out of his bosome , to dye for the justification of men ( and salvation thereupon ) contributed by way of merit , towards their justification and salvation , as christ by dying . and verily , why that act of god the father should not be reputed every whit as great in point of merit , in reference to the great business of justification , as the act of christ in offering up of himself by death in order thereunto , i apprehend not . certain i am , that the scripture commendeth and setteth it forth , upon the same , o● as great , terms of grace , honour , and admiration , as the other , joh. , rom. . , . rom. . . ( to omit other places of like import . ) now of the two it is ( i conceive ) less probable , and gospel-like , that the respective contributions of the father , and the son , towards justification , should be of the one and the same kind , then of a different . yet of the same kind they would be , if both should contribute thereunto by way of merit . nor do i see how any clear place will be left for praise and thanks unto god the father from persons justified , for their justification , in case it may be sayd , that christ properly merited their justification . for to render or give unto a person , only that which in rigour , or strictness of justice , either himself , or another hath merited , or deserved for him , especially where no occasion , or tentation is in the way to perswade him to do otherwise , is scarce any matter of praise to him that doth it , nor of engagement unto thankfulness upon him , who receiveth only his own in such a case . it is true , there is somewhat a●i●e consideration upon a valuable price payd for that which is bought , or purchased . if a friend layes down a summ of money for the purchase , of procurement of my liberty , and this fully commensurable therewith , and according to agreement with him , of whom he is to purchase it , i am thus far , or in this respect no great debtor of thanks unto him , who sets me at liberty upon such terms . but in case he from whom i am to receive my liberty ( if i ever enjoy it ) being a prudent and just man , and withall at liberty , to keep me in bondage for ever , what terms soever should be offered for my ransome , and moreover shall be so principled , that in regard of my foul misdemeanor , by which i became a captive , he could not condescend to grant my liberty , but upon terms highly materiall and considerable , in this case ( i say ) i shall be a signall debtor unto him for my liberty , if he shal so far commiserate my misery , as to move any of his friends , or relations , to stand by me in this my great exigent , and to do , or suffer that for the procurement of my liberty , upon which he can , and will willingly grant it , and especially he being no wayes engaged unto me by any service done by me , or courtesie received from me . now this is the case between god the father , and men , in the gracious business of justification . first , he was at full liberty , men having sinned , whether ever to have justified any person , or not , on what terms soever . secondly , being by nature infinitely prudent and just , he could not judge it meet for him , in case he should be willing , or inclinable to justifie men , to do it , otherwise then upon terms every wayes becoming those his attributes . thirdly , such terms as these were not to be procured , or had , but only from jesus christ , and him voluntarily submitting himself unto death for this end . fourthly , ( and lastly ) jesus christ , though willing both to do , and to suffer , what ever he did in either kind , for the justification of men ; yet would not have undertaken the business , nor actually either done , or suffered , any thing in order to their justification , had not the father been willing to part with him , yea , and actually sent him into the world with order and commission from himself , both to do , and suffer , whatsoever should be requisite on his part thereunto , joh. . . & . . . . , . . in these respects ( besides others ) the generation of men are most signally indebted unto god the father for their justification , notwithstanding a valuable consideration , or price layed down for the procurement of it . but concerning the word , * merit , since it is so generally used by protestant divines , and other learned and worthy men , in their writings and discourses about justification , to express the congruity , compleat sufficiency , yea , and super-sufficiency , of the doings , and sufferings of christ , for the procuring of it , and this without any inconvenience , as far as i know , occasioned thereby ; i shall not contend for the laying it aside , or censure in the least those that shall use it : only , i conceive that in points & doctrins of so mysterious a nature , and so weighty a consequence , as the doctrine of justification is , it is safest and best for edification , to use such terms , which do with greatest propriety and strictness of notion , answer , and unsold the words , and phrases , wherein god himself hath in the scriptures delivered his mind and counsell in such things unto us . if it be here ( objection-wise ) demanded ; but if christ made a full and compleat satisfaction by his death , for the sins of men , and hereby satisfied the justice and wisdome of god , so that he cannot justly , or equitably , require any thing further , either from men themselves , or from any other on their behalf , in order to their discharge , absolution , or justification from their sins , how , or upon what account doth he still capitulate with men , about their justification , imposing faith upon them ( a faith working , or apt to work , by love ; yea , and works themselves too , according to the judgment of some ; whose words in this case are not guilty , if their sense be innocent ) in the nature of a condition , without the performance whereof no justification is to be had , notwithstanding the satisfaction made by christ for their sins ? or how is the satisfaction made by christ compleat and full , if justification be not given upon it , without the addition , or intervening of some qualification , or performance in men ? and if god having received full satisfaction from christ in his death , for the respective debts , or sins of men , should yet require satisfaction at their hands also in punishment , for the same debt , whether they believe in him , or no , should he not be unjust ? or is it consistent with justice to demand the same debt twice , or to exact a second satisfaction , when one hath been given already , and this every wayes compleat and full , and so acknowledged by the creditor and receiver himself ? i answer , . the compleatners , or fulness of christ's satisfaction , is not to be o● imated by the will , or counsell of god about the application of it , or actuall communication of the vertue , o● benefit of it unto particular men , but by the proportion which it beaneth unto the ●n , unto which it relateth in the nature of a p●i e , ransome , consideration , or satisfaction . if it be commensurable in rationall worth , or value unto these , i. if it be a matter , or thing of that nature , consequence , and consideration , that god may with the salvage , or sufficient demonstration , of the glory of his justice , or perfect hatred of sin , wisdome , &c. pardon the sins and transgressions of men , without any thing added thereunto , by way of satisfaction , or punishment , it is in reason to be ●udged a sufficient , or compleat satisfaction , although , upon some other account , he suspend the benefit , or actuall application of it unto particular men , upon reasonable requirements of them otherwise . in case a prince , or nobleman , charitably and bountifully disposed , should intend the redemption of a company of persons out of captivity , and in order hereunto , should freely give unto him , under whom they are in bondage , and who hath power to set them at liberty , a summ of money , fully answerable , according to the usuall rate in such cases , to the liberty of these persons , but should withall desire of , or covenant with , him , to whom he hath given , or payd the sayd money , and who is the present lord of these captives , that he should not actually discharge , or set at liberty , any man of them , untill they had tendered ▪ or made a thankfull acknowledgment of his grace and bounty towards them ; in this case ( i say ) the condition of acknowledgment required of these captives , by their great benefactors before they are permitted actually to partake of the benefit of the price of their redemption ; doth no waies argue any scantness , or insufficiency in this price , but only declares the will and pleasure of him that ransometh them concerning their behaviour , before their actuall redemption . if it be here demanded ; but what if any , or all the c p●ives in this case , should so far forget themselves , or be neglective of their own welfare , as not to tender , or make such an acknowledgment to their benefactor , what becomes of that money , or price layd down by him for their redemption ? would it not argue want of wisdome , o● providence , in him that should lay down a vast summ of money for the redemption of such persons , the far greater part of which he knew before-hand would be never the better for it , nor accept of their liberty upon such terms , as he meant to impose on them , in order thereunto ? i answer . ( to the former of these demands ) in case any , or all , the captives mentioned , should be so desperately careless of their own welfare , as not to accept of their deliverance upon those equitable and easie terms , on which it is offered them , and may be enjoyed by them , their benefactor may notwithstanding have consideration for his money , satisfactory unto him , as viz. both the conscience and honour of his most worthy , and heroick act , in sparing no cost to being men out of misery and th●aldome . nor doth the scripture anywhere suspend the glorious and high contentment which god takes in that transcendent act of his grace in the gift of his son for the redemption of the world , upon the faith of those who believe on him by means thereof , or upon the great benefit , which by means of their faith , they actually receive from it , but upon the intrinsecall and divine worth and adorableness of the act it self . yea , the scripture seems to make that great act of grace we speak of , of one and the same consideration , or contentment unto ▪ god , whethermen reap benefit by it , or no . for we are unto god ( sayth the apostle , cor. . . ) the sweet savour of christ , in them that are saved , and in them that perish . so that christ , i. his grace vouchsafed unto the world by christ , for their salvation , is of the same , or like savour [ sweet , and pleasing ] unto god , whether men accept it ( and so are saved by it ) or whether they reject it , and perish notwithstanding it . it is true , upon another account god is highly oftended with men ▪ when they reject his grace ; as viz. because herein they act most foolishly , and irrationally , not because they diminish , or make any breach , upon his contentment in vouchsafing such grace unto them . . to the latter demand , whether it would not argue want of wisdome , or providence , &c. i answer ; . that it argues neither want of wisdome , or providence , in him that shall part with a great summ of money for the ransome of many thousand captives , although he should know before-hand that the greater part would be never the better for it , nor accept of their freedome upon the terms imposed on them , in order thereunto , in case it be supposed that he knew that a considerable part of them ( however ) would accept of the favour , to the unspeakable benefit of their enlargement . yea ( as was lately argued ) though he had fore-known that none of them would have accepted their liberty upon the terms required of them , yet had the honour , reputation , and conscience of such an act , been a reasonable compensation for the money disbursed . but . such a demand as this is unproper to the case in hand . for it cannot be truly sayd , that god fore-knew , or foresaw that the greater part of men would reject his grace in christ , and so perish this notwithstanding , before this grace was given unto them at least in his unchangable counsell , purpose , and decree . for his decree of sending , or giving christ for the tansome of the world , was from before the world began , i mean , from eternity : and consequently there could nothing precede , or be before it , especially in order of time , it being a rule of unquestionable truth , that in aeternis non est prius , aut posterius . but , . to the first objection , or demand , i answer further ; that gods purpose , o● design in the death of christ , was not simply , or absolutely , either to justifie , or save , men by it , neither did he judge it agreeable to his wisdome and righteousness so to do ; but to do both the one , and the other conditionally , and upon terms such as he judged meet to prescribe and impose upon them for the obtaining of these great priviledges and blessings by it . so god loved the world ( sayth our saviour himself ) that he gave his only begotten son , [ not , that all men , or that any man , simply and without any more ado ] but , that whosoever believeth in him , should not perish , but have everlasting life , joh. . . now the collation , application , or actuall bestowing of the fruits , or benefits of the death of christ , not depending so much upon the intrinsecall worth , value , or satisfactoriness thereof , as upon the will and pleasure of him , who voluntarily gave him to dye for the justification , and salvation of men , and consequently had a right of liberty to make the terms for the collation of these benefits , what he pleased , he cannot with any colour of reason be deemed unjust , in case he denies them unto those , who refuse , or neglect to perform his terms , notwithstanding they were by christ purchased for them ; that is , with a full and clear intent on his part , that they should have possessed and enjoyed them , upon their believing . so that , ▪ ( and lastly , for this ) when god constraineth those who belive not , to pay their own debts , and to make satisfaction themselves for their sins , by being eternally punished , he cannot be sayd to require , or take a double satisfaction , or two satisfactions , for one and the same debt , although it be true in a sense ( viz. that lately declared ) that christ satisfied for them . for that satisfaction which christ made for the sins of any person who believes not ( i mean , who dies in unbelief ) was never received , or accepted , by god in the nature of an appropriate , particular , or actuall satisfaction for their sins ; but only as a potentiall satisfaction ; that is , as a thing of compleat worth , and value , enough to have made a particular and actuall satisfaction even for such a mans sins , as ●ell as for the sins of those who believe , and which he as fully intended to accept for such a satisfaction on his behalf , in case he had believed , which he might have done , as he did to accept it upon such terms for them , or for their sins , who do believe . if it be objected ; but if christ made satisfaction , for the sins of him , who never believeth , and god accepteth it not as a satisfaction for their sins ; doth not god dis-approve , or dis-allow , either christs doings , or his intentions , or both . for if christ in , or by his death , made , or intended to make satisfaction for the sins of unbelievers , and god refuseth to accept this satisfaction , or that which christ intended for a satisfaction , for their sins , doth he not reject that , which christ desired , and intended , that he should accept ? to this , i answer , that an answer ( in effect ) hath been already given . for in such a consideration , or sense , as christ either desired , or intended , that his death should be a satisfaction for the sins of unbelievers , dying in unbelief , doth god the father accept of it . christ neither desired , nor intended to make satisfaction by his death for the sins of unbelievers , any otherwise , nor upon any other terms , then that god the father should upon the account thereof , justifie such persons from their sins , in case they should have believed : and in this sense he doth accept it as a satisfaction for them , being for the sake thereof , most ready and willing , to pardon all the sins , and so to justifie the persons , of all men without exception , as well theirs who never will believe , in case they should believe , as theirs , who shall believe , and be actually justified thereupon . so that god , in causing , or compelling unbelievers to suffer , or to satisfie , for their sins , doth not require , or exact , a second satisfaction for them , after a former received ; but only puts them upon payment of their debt themselves , who despised his grace in providing for them that , which was indeed intended for the actuall and reall satisfaction hereof , upon condition of their believing , but was never upon these terms accepted by him , by reason of their non-performance of the sayd condition of believing . . what tho active obedience of christ contributeth sect. towards the justification of sinners , hath been in part declared already . under the mosaicall law , the beast that was to be offered in sacrifice , to make any of those leviticall expiations , was to be perfect , and without blemish ; it was neither to be blind , nor broken , nor maimed , nor having a wen , nor seurvy , nor scabbed , not having any thing superfluous nor any thing lacking in his parts , &c. if it had any of these , or the like imperfections in it , it was not accepted . see lev. . , , . now that which the soundness , perfection , and freedom from blemish , in the legal sacrifices , contributed towards their acceptation , and consequently , towards the efficacy of their respective attonements , or expiations , the same , or the like in proportion , doth the active obedience of christ contribute towards the acceptation of his sacrifice of himself , in order to the efficaciousness hereof forthe justification of sinners . this similitude , or proportion is plainly taught and asserted by the apostle peter , where he sayth , forasmuch as yee know yee were not redeemed with corruptible things , as with silver , and gold , from the vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers , but with the pretious blood of christ , as of a lamb without blemish , and without spot . [ i. as well without any naturall originall deficiency , or imperfection , signified in the word , blemish , as without any adventitious , or actuall defilement , intimated in the word , spot ] pet. . , . so john baptist looketh towards the same analogy , saying unto the people concerning him , behold the lamb of god that taketh away the sins of the world , joh. . . the lamb of god , i. a person highly acceptable with god , as being every wayes qualified with innocency , righteousness , holiness , &c. and so meet by his death , to make attonement for the sin of the world . so then , as that which the unblemishedness of the beast for sacrifice under the law , exhibited towards that attonement which was made by the offering of it , was the meetness of this offering of it for acceptance with god , and consequently for this acceptance it self , in order to his pardoning , or passing by that ceremoniall impurity , or uncleanness , for which it was offered , in like manner , the active obedience of christ , in conjunction with the absolute holiness and inward purity of his person , rendered his death , or the oblation of himself a sacrifice , every wayes meet and worthy acceptance with god , and consequently , accepted with him , for the expiation , or attonement of the sins of all men . if christ had been so much as touch'd with the least tincture of defilement with sin , he had not been a priest after the order of melchisedech , holy , harmless , undefiled , separated from sinners , &c. but rather after the order of aaron , who needed to offer sacrifice for their own sins . neither had he been in any condition , or regular capacity to have made attonement for the sins of others , untill he had first fully expiated his own . that the active obedience of christ doth not operate in , or about , or towards justification , in that way , or notion , which some have conceived , as , viz. by an imputation of the particular acts thereof ( in the letter and formality of them ) unto those that believe ; whereby they should be constituted , or made properly and formally righteous , we have demonstrated at large in a just treatise upon that subject , where it is made good upon several accounts , that the sayd notion , hath neither countenance from the scriptures , nor any tolerable consistency wth the clearest principles of reason . sect. . what place , or interest the death , or passive obedience of christ , hath in , or about justification , we have in like manner briefly intimated in our fifth section . it rendereth that great act of god in the justification of a sinner , every wayes comely and honourable unto him , and worthy of him , and consequently makes him most willing and free to it . the holy ghost speaks plainly enough of that comeliness , which the sufferings of christ put upon the justification of a sinner by god , giving some intimation withall , that unless this act had by one means or other been made thus comely for him , he would never have lift up his heart , or hand unto it . for it became him , for whom are all things , and by whom are all things , [ meaning god ] in bringing many sons unto glory , to consecrate , [ or make perfect ] the captain of their salvation through sufferings , heb. . . that meetness , or comeliness for god ( here spoken of ) intending the salvation and glorification of many , to effect it in noother way then by the sufferings of him , who was to be the prince , or captain of their salvation , respecteth mainly , if not solely , his act in justifying them , in order to their salvation , and glorification . for otherwise supposing them already justified , there needed more the life , then the death , of christ , to save them ; according to that of the apostle paul : but god commendeth his love towards us , in that while we were yet sinners , christ dyed for us . much more then being now justified by his blood , we shall be saved from wrath through him . for if when we were enemies we were reconciled unto god by the death of his son ; much more ▪ being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life , rom. . , , . we see here , . that our justification is ascribed unto the blood , or death of christ : and . that our salvation ▪ our justification , or reconciliation unto god , presupposed ] unto his life , i. unto that power , which is given unto him in that life , which now he lives in glory at the right hand of the father , to exercise for the saving of all those that believe in him . life frequently imports vigour , activity , liveliness of strength , or power , for action ▪ as death imports weakness and imbecility for action . if you ask me , but how , or in what respect , doth the passive obedience , or death of christ , render the act of justification , as now it is exerted , or performed by god , so comely , or honourable for him ? or how may we conceive , that either it would have been uncomely , or less comely for him to have appeared in it , in case his hand had not been strengthned by the death of christ unto it ? or doth it not well enough become the great god to forgive sin freely and without satisfaction ? i answer , . whether we conceive the import of those words spoken by god unto adam , and in him , unto all his posterity , being yet in his loyns , in the day that thou eatest thereof , thou shalt dye the death , either in the nature , or notion of a dreadfull threatning in case of disobedience , or of a most sacred , and severe law , to restrain sin , and disobedience ( the difference , i confess , is not much materiall , as far as at present i apprehend ) it was no wayes honourable , or comely for god to suffer either the one , or the other , to be trodden , or trampled under foot by the creature to whom they were given , without looking after them , or calling for some satisfactory account for the contempt measured out unto them . it cannot reasonably be thought , but that god , by the denunciation of such a threatning , or promulgation , and sanction of such a law , awakened and amused both heaven and earth , and raised great expectations in both what the issue , or consequence would be . now then , adam , and his posterity , being ( as was sayd ) now in him , rising up in disobedience in the very face ( as it were ) and presence of so terrible a threatning , if god should have passed by , and made no words of this high mis-demeanour , he might seem , either on the one hand to repent that he had so sorely threatned them , and therefore now proceeded not to execution ; or else on the other hand , that he was content and willing enough to be neglected , or affronted by his creature : both which , would have been very uncomely and dishonourable unto him . nor would it have been of much more comely an interpretation , had he accepted any thing of an inferiour value , or less considerable , instead of a compensation , or satisfaction , and had not stood upon a just and full vindication of his soveraign authority , his excellent wisdome , his righteousness , and equity in his proceedings with his creature ; the glory of all which were very injuriously handled , and suffered deeply in adams prevarication . so then , adam , and his mis-carrying with so high a hand of disobedience , there devolved a necessity upon god , if he meant to glorifie himself , like himself , and as god , either to punish the whole brood of transgressours , according to the full exigency of their demerit , or ( which is the same ) according to the tenor and import of the threatning , or else to find out some other person to suffer for them , whose punishment , or sufferings might be altogether as considerable , and argue as great respects to his authority , wisdome , and righteousness , as the punishment of adam , and all that were now delinquents in his loyns ( i. his whole posterity , the second adam only excepted ) up to the line of their transgression and guilt , would have done . and thus the apostle ( as we lately heard ) layeth it down indefinitely and in the generall , that if god meant to save and glorifie any number of adams posterity , it concerned him in point of glory to provide , that he , who ever he should be , by whom they were to be saved , should suffer to perfection , [ i. proportionably to what they ought to have suffered , whom he intended to save by him ] for this i conceive to be the sense and import of these words ; for it became him , for whom are all things , and by whom are all things , in bringing many sons unto glory , to perfect [ or make perfect ] the captain of their salvation through sufferings , heb. . . that description , or periphrasis of god , for whom are all things , and by whom are all things , importing his transcendent soveraignty , and greatness , seems to imply , that these were considerations that made it necessary , and comely for him , in case he intended salvation to adam ▪ and his posterity , to take that course , which now he hath taken for the effecting it , viz. to impose such sufferings upon him , by whom it should , or was to be atchieved , which might in a rationall estimation , answer the sufferings which they had deserved ; and that had it been any , but god , or had god been any , but himself , the omission of such exactness of severity , or justice , in , or about the accomplishment of the design , would not have been so uncomly for them , as now ( it seems ) it would have been for god to dispense with it , his augustissimall and unparralleld majesty and greatness , being ( as hath been sayd ) considered . for it no wayes at no hand , becomes him , to whom the whole creation , heaven and earth , with all the hosts of them , stand bound to do the deepest homage and service , and whose wisdome and power have so gloriously quitted themselves in the beautifull fabrick of the universe , and in all the parts and parcels of it , either to confess himself , either unadvised , or over-severe , in making a law for the nurture and government of his creature , or to minister any occasion in the least unto his creature , so to judge , or conceive of him ; which he should have done , had he taken a company of his creatures , who had despised and broken this law , into his bosome , yea , into part and fellowship with himself in his own blessedness and glory , without a just compensation for these transgressions , and fully commensurable , in one kind or other , thereunto . now there being no creature , no person to be found either in heaven or in earth , nor any to be framed , nor made by any appropriate , or new act of creation ( at least as far as the understandings of men are well able to reach ) capable of suffering upon the terms mentioned , in regard of the unpreventible inconsiderableness of their beings ( comparatively ) and of their sufferings accordingly , and so not competent to make a just satisfaction for the high misdemeanour , or provocation of so many ; hence there arose a necessity ( a necessity , i mean , for divine conveniency , and a salvage of honour ) either that the son of god , being first put into a suffering capacity , by being made flesh , should willingly undertake and perform this suffering service for the transgressors , or otherwise that the transgressors themselves , from the first to the last , should have born their own sin , and fallen under it , and have perished by it for ever . . suppose we , that some creature might have been ▪ either found , or made ; yea , suppose we , that some man might have been made upon like terms with adam , whose sufferings might have amounted to a satisfactory consideration for adams transgression ( together with all theirs , who sinned in him , and with him ) yet first , if he in one respect or other , had not really and truly descended from adam , as christ did , the satisfaction made by him had not been so proper , or so clearly salvant of the glory of the wisdome and soveraignty of god in the threatning , or law , mentioned , in that day that thou eatest thereof , thou shalt dye the death , as that now made by the death of christ . for christ was not only of the same nature with adam , but also lineally , though not according to the course of common propagation , descended from adam ( luk. . . compared with vers . . and the verses intermediate ) in which respect , the threatning , or penalty of the law , in the day that thou eatest , &c. was inflicted upon him , to whom the law was given , though not upon his person ( personally considered ) but as subsisting , and having a being , in that speciall branch of his posterity , christ , as he had a being likewise in every other member of this his posterity , even as they also , in a reciprocall consideration , had a being in him , whilst as yet they actually were not . in this kind of dialect , god kept covenant with abraham , when he performed those promises unto him , as subsisting in his posterity , or seed , which yet he made unto him personally ( unless we shall say , which haply may be true , and proper enough , that this and such like promises made unto abraham , remain yet to be performed and made good unto him personally , in the first resurrection , and during the reign of christ , and of the saints on earth , for a thousand years ▪ ) thus he promised unto him yet personally subsisting , and present , that he would give him the land of canaan ; arise , walk through the land in the length of it , and in the breadth of it : for i will give it unto thee ( gen. ▪ . ) so elsewere : and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed ( gen. . . ) which yet was not verified in him personally considered , but as subsisting in that most glorious and flourishing branch of his posterity , christ . in like manner , christ assuming the humane nature , wherein he suffered , from one of adams naturall race , and consequently from adam himself , though in an appropriate and supernaturall way , the penalty of the law , in the day that thou eatest thereof , thou shalt dye the death , being inflicted upon christ , may in a sense , and this not much remote from that which is literall , o● proper , be sayd to have been inflicted upon adam himself . the apostle having ( as we lately heard ) affirmed , that it became god in bringing [ i. pu posing , or designing , and accordingly attempting to being many sons , [ as viz. his son adam , luk . . and all his sons , which were many , and who , by reason of their descent from adam , may properly enough be tearmed the sons of god also , the scripture frequently giving the appellation of sons , or children , to all lineally descending from the same progenitors ] unto glory , to consecrate for so the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , very often signifieth ot to make perfect [ i. compleatly to qualifie ] the captain of their salvation [ christ that was to procure their deliverance from death , by making attonement for them ] through sufferings [ proportionable to so great ●n atchievement ] and consequently , to put him into a capacity of suffering , by investing him with the humane nature ( as is plainly layd down , v. . ) the apostle ( i say ) having asserted this ▪ he gives this account of it in the words following : for both he that sanctifieth , and they that are sanctified are all of one ; meaning , that the one , and the other , are both of one and the same original , or descent ; as viz. from god by the line of adam , and likewise of one and the same nature , or blood ( as act. . . and hath made of one blood all nations of men . ) and withall , that it was meet that thus it should be for conformity sake unto the leviticall type , where the high priest , and those that were legally purified , or sanctified by him , were both of one and the same nature , and likewise descended from one and the same progenitors . . it was very agreeable both to the goodness and wisdome of god , that he , who by his appointment , and at his instance , should serve adam and his posterity , in so arduous and difficult an undertaking , as by his own death to re-instate them in a condition of life and peace , should be satisfied with , and enjoy this sore travail of his soul , and not sink , or be wholly crushed under it : and consequently that he should not only suffer death , but overcome death , or ( which is the same ) be raised again from the dead , that so he might be capable of that great recompence of reward , which so transcendent a service both unto god , and men , well deserved . upon this account also , the lord jesus christ was the only person , either in actuall being , or in possibility of being , that was accomplished , or meetly qualified for that great undertaking , of raising up the tabernacle of adam , which was fallen , and of saving that which was lost . for were it granted , or supposed , which yet i cannot encourage any man to suppose , that some creature might have been found , or else made , so holy , harmless , undefiled , and separate from sinners , the shedding of whose blood , or whose death , for adam , and his posterity , might have been so considerable in the sight of god , as that he could have judg'd it competently salvant of the glory of his wisdome , and of the awfulness , and dread of his soveraignty , to have remitted the transgression of adam , and his , upon the account thereof , yet is it no wayes probable , that the considerableness , or worth of this sacrifice , would , or could have ab●unded so high above the purchase , or procurement of the redemption of adam , and his posterity , as to in-title , or to in-right him that should have offered it , to a glorious resurrection also , such as was meet for him , that had been , the author of salvation to a lost world . and if the glory wherein christ appeared upon tabor , was so exceeding great , that it only became the only begotten son of god , being a garment too above measure rich for any person to wear , but the only son of the king of kings ( to which sense many of the expositors carry that of the evangelist , joh. . ) much more would such a transcendency in glory , wherewith god hath judged it meet to invest and dignifie him , that is now the saviour of the world ; as the making him higher then the heavens , placing him at his own right hand , giving him a name above every name that is named , &c. have been vastly disproportionable to the line of any meer created being whatsoever . and yet the apostle plainly declareth , that such an high priest became us ; [ i. was necessary for us to have , in respect of those high and vast concernments , which were to pass through his hands , and to be transacted by him ] who ( amongst other glorious prerogatives ) should be made higher then the heavens , heb. . . in these considerations ( and haply in some others like unto them ) the contributions of the passive obedience and sufferings of christ , were soveraignly necessary to render the high transaction , or dispensation of god , the justification of sinners , worthy of him , and of a regular and cleer consistence with his glory . as for the tenent of those , who resolve this great act , or dispensation of god we speak of ( i mean , justification ) partly into the soveraignty of his greatness , or authority , and partly into the abundance of his grace , and goodness , and liberty of his will , and partly into the obedience , and regular conversation of men themselves , excluding the death of christ from any part , or fellowship therein ( at least by way of attonement , or satisfaction for sin ) i conceive it to be broadly inconsistent with the tenor and purport of the scriptures in places and passages without number . . the resurrection , or raising of christ from the dead , sect. ( in conjunction with his glorification which followed upon it ) advanceth the business of justification , by the assurance given hereby from god unto the souls and consciences of men , that he is well a paid , and fully satisfied concerning that great debt of the sin of the world , the discharge whereof was undertaken by christ in his death ; hereby encouraging men , who had incur'd his displeasure by sinning , to believe in him accordingly , for their justification . this is the express doctrine of the apostle peter , : who verily was fore-ordained ( speaking of christ ) before the foundation of the world , but was manifested in these last times for you , who by him do believe in god that raised him up from the dead , and gave him glory , that your faith and hope might be in god , [ and consequently , that you might be found , or put into , a state of justification ( without which , faith , and hope in god were little available ) pet. . . and in this consideration ( doubtless ) it was that the apostle paul affirmed , christ to be raised again for our justification . who was ( sayth he , speaking of christ ) delivered [ viz. unto death ] for our sins , and was raised again for our justification , ( rom , . . ) meaning , that he was raised again from the dead : [ including in his resurrection , by a kind of synecdoche , the great glory and dignity given him by god upon it ] that hereby a rationall way might be made for sinners to believe in him , or in god , [ for the gospel indifferently useth the one expression , and the other , to the same effect ] in order to their justification . whilst the surety , o● he that hath undertaken the payment of a debt , is kept in prison , there is no likelyhood that the debt is payd , or the creditor satisfied . and upon this ground the apostle paul reasoneth first thus : but if christ be not risen , then is our preaching vain , and your faith is also vain , cor. . . and again vers. . and if christ be not raised , your faith is vain : yee are yet in your sins ; meaning , that they could have no reasonable ground to believe that they were discharged , or acquitted by god from the debt , or guilt , of their sins by means of the death of christ , if he should be detained in the prison of death ( the grave ) until now , and not have been raised again , and set at liberty . so then the rising again , or rather the raising again , of christ from the dead by god the father , justifieth believing sinners ( as it were ) argumentatively , and as exhibiting a rationall ground unto them , whereon to build their faith , of a full and perfect attonement made by christ in his death for them , or for their sins ; by which faith , according unto , and by vertue of , that promise made , or the law enacted by god , in that behalf , they come to be justified . sect. . the prophet isaiah bringeth in god the father , speaking thus of his son christ : by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justifie many : for he shall bear their iniquities , isa. . . that the particle , or pronoun , his , is here to be taken objectively , not subjectively ( a construction frequent in scripture ) is ( i presume ) the award of every mans understanding . so that by his knowledge , [ the knowledge of christ ] is meant the knowledge of himself , which he shall propagate in the world by the ministry of the gospel , and by means of this knowledge of him many shall be justified ; according to that of the apostle ; we who are jews by nature , and not sinners of the gentiles , knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law , but by the faith of jesus christ even we have believed in jesus christ , that we might be justified by the faith of christ , [ i. by christ believed on ] as he explains himself in the verse next following ; but if whilst we seek to be justified by christ , &c. ( whence by the way it may be observed , that to be justified by christ , and by faith , or believing in christ , is of one and the same import ) so then , the knowledge of christ is , or may be sayd , to justifie men , in somewhat a remote sense ; viz. as it is a ground of encouragement unto them to believe on him ; by which believing they are immediatly justified . . men are sayd in scripture , as well to be justified , as sect. sanctified , by the spirit of god , and this as justification is distinguished from sanctification . but yee are washed , but yee are sanctified , but yee are justified in the name of the lord jesus , and by the spirit of our god , cor. . . some exposito●s indeed understand the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , yee were justified , not of justification properly so called , or which standeth in remission of sins , but of such a justification , which consisteth in a progress , or proficiency in righteousness , or in the profession and practice of christianity . for the justification of which exposition , they plead the exigency of the order , or gradation in the text it self , as also the like use , or signification of the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in that of apocal. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , let him that is righteous [ or just ] be justified still . i. ( as the expositers we speak of interpret ) let him encrease and make forward in wayes of righteousness . it must be acknowledged , that to grow in grace and proceed in holiness and righteousness from day to day may be called a mans justification in a declarative , or arguitive sense , viz. as they argue , or declare a man to be a justified pe●son , and his faith to be of the right kind , a living and growing faith : yea , they may be termed a mans justification , as they are just matter of his app●obation , and commendation , which in many cases are used in a sense parallel to that of the word justification , as 't is used sometimes . but the justification , which is the s●bject of our present discourse , doth not consist in any action , one , or more , nor in any quality , one , or more ; but rather in a state , or condition , viz. such whereinto a person is translated , or brought by the pardon of his sins ▪ or sentence of absolution awarded by god . nor need we take the word justification in the scripture lately cited ( cor. . . ) in any other sense but this . for justification ( in this sense ) may be asc●ibed to the holy ghost , as he hath a speciall and appropriate hand in raising the work of faith , by which men are thus justified , in the hearts of those , who do believe : in which respect , faith is registred by the apostle paul , amongst the fruits of the spirit , gal. . . and by his fellow apostle peter , they who believe are sayd to obey the truth ( speaking of the obediency of faith to the gospel ) through the spirit , pet. . . and act. . . the christians in ach●ia are sayd to have believed through grace , i through the grace of god , in his vouchsafement of his spirit unto them , by whom they were enabled to believe , yea , and actually believed . now then ( according to the known maxime , or principle in reason , quod est causa causae , est causa causati , that which is the cause of any cause , producing an effect , is the cause of the effect it self , as well as of the cause producing it ) faith being the cause , or means of justification , and the spirit the cause of faith , justification may as truly , and not much less properly , be attributed unto the spirit , as unto faith . sect. . that faith justifieth , is the constant assertion of the scripture , and the architectonicall doctrine of the gospel . therefore being justified by faith , we have peace with god , rom. . . again , therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law , rom. . . yet once more ( to spare citations in a case so generally known ) we , who are jews by nature , and not sinners of the gentiles , knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law , but by the faith of jesus christ ; even we have believed in jesus christ , that we might be justified by the faith of christ , and not by the works of the law , &c. gal. . , . by the way , upon occasion of these ( with many the like passages in the new testament , wherein justification by faith is , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , expresly affirmed ) i cannot but mention my dislike of their strein in teaching , who lay down and deliver it to the people for a doctrine , positively and plainly ; that men are not justified by faith , or by believing . doubtless it is not convenient , or comely , positively to deliver , or assert that for a doctrine of truth , which is so diametrally opposite to the frequent , cleer , and express words of the scripture . if there be a limited sence , to be put upon such passages , wherein a truth is commonly , and from place to place held forth in the scriptures , this may conveniently and timously enough be done in the explication or opening of the doctrine : but i judge it very incongruous for any minister of the gospel to set up a doctrine as it were in defiance of , or in contest against any thing so frequently , and so directly in terminis affirmed in the scriptures , as justification by faith . and ( doubtlesse ) men need not be at all tender , or afraid , to deliver this positively for a doctrine of evangelical truth , that men are justified by faith , yea or by faith alone , if they do but declare or signifie withall . what the scripture means by that justification , which it ascribeth unto faith . what it means by that faith unto which it ascribeth justification . for . that justification , which the scripture attributeth unto faith , is precisely that which consisteth in remission of sins , as the apostle plainly teacheth , rom. . . but more largely , rom. . , , , , , , , . ( to omit other places . ) now certain it is , that no kinde of works whatsoever , enjoyned in the moral law , have any thing at all , little or much , to doe , about remission of sins , or in the procurement or obtaining of it . for in case a man should transgresse the law , or sin , only once , and this in the lightest manner , and should for ten thousand years together afterwards , with all possible exactnesse , observe and keep this law , yet this long tract or series of obedience , or good works , would not make his attonement for that sin , nor bring him off from the guilt of it with peace and safety . the reason is signified by the apostle , heb. . . without shedding of bloud there is no remission . the wisdome and righteousnesse of god did not judge it reasonable , or meet , that the payment of one debt by the creature , though amounting to never so great a summe , should satisfie for the non-payment of another . now the most exact obedience that can be performed or yielded unto the law of god by any creature , whilest it hath any being , is but a debt due from this creature unto god : therefore no obedience in this kinde can satisfie for , or attone ▪ either in whole , or in part , the least disobedience or transgression . so that justification from sin ( as the scripture phrase is , act. . . ) i. which standeth in remision of sins , cannot be purchased or procured , but by the death or blood-shed of him , that should undertake the redemption of sinners . only god was pleased to decree , or make this for a law ( which the apostle calleth , the law of faith , rom ▪ . . ) that faith , or believing in him through christ , should interess men in the benefit or blessing of the death and bloud-shed of christ , i. in that remission of sins which was purchased by his death . and in this consideration faith justifieth , viz. by vertue of the soveraign authority of that most gracious decree , or law of god , wherein he hath said , or decreed , that it shall intitle men unto , or in-right them in , part and fellowship of that benefit of the death of christ , which consisteth in forgivenesse of sins ; or ( which comes much to the same ) as it is a qualification , or condition ordained , covenanted , or appointed by god to bring upon those , in whom it shall be found , the great blessing of that pardon of sin , which christ hath obtained for men by his blood . and because god hath not passed any such decree , nor made any such law , concerning good works , as viz. that these shall bring men into communion of the benefit of remission of sins purchased by the death of christ ▪ therefore they have nothing to doe to justifie men in this notion , or sense , of the word , justification . if by justification , we mean approbation , commendation , acquitting from blame , or the like , ( in which sense also the word is frequently used in the scriptures ) * good works are proper and necess ry thus to justifie us both in the sight of god and men ; only with this explication or proviso , viz. that men live to meet with opportunities for the doing of such works , after their true believing . for otherwise , if the case should so happen , that a true believer should be taken away by death , the next moment to that in which he first believed , it is not to be thought but that he should die , not simply with his sins pardoned , but under the approbation of god also . therefore good works , in actu exercito ( as the schoolmen speak ) or actually performed , are not absolutely , universally , or in every case that may possibly happen , necessary , no not to that justification it self , which simpathizeth ( as hath been said ) in import with approbation , commendation , vindication from blame imputed , or the like . it is true , in actu signato , or as they are radically , seminally , or vertually included in that faith which justifieth by remission of sins ( of which more presently ) so they are universally , and in all cases possible , if we speak of persons capable by years and discretion of believing , necessary thereunto . and god who accepteth the will for the deed , when men want opportunity or means , for action , looketh upon those good works , which are conceived in the womb of a true and unfeigned faith , as actually performed and done , when such a faith wants means , time , or opportunity to bring forth . in this notion our saviour himself must be understood to speak , at least in reference unto many of those , to whom he speaketh , if he be conceived to speak unto all standing on his right hand ( which i judge to be the more rational to suppose ) mat. . , , . come ye blessed of my father — for i was an hungred , and ye gave me meat ; i was thirsty , and ye gave me drink : i was a stranger , and ye took me in : naked , and ye cloathed me : i was sick , and ye visited me : i was in prison , and ye came unto me . doubtlesse some , yea a considerable party , of those , to whom the lord christ will expresse himself thus in that great day , will be such , who had been poor in the dayes of their flesh , and afflicted , and stood in need of being relieved by their christian brethren , better accommodated in the world then they , and in whose relief christ will acknowledge himself relieved , v. . therefore such as these had not been in a condition or capacity to minister actually unto the wants and necessities of other poor christians in those respective supplies and accommodations here specified : and yet we finde ( according to our late supposition ) that christ gives the same testimony unto them for these services of charity , which he gives unto those that had actually performed them . his meaning then must be , that even these poor distressed saints , who had not wherewith either to cloath the naked , or to give entertainment unto strangers , actually , yet had both one and other the same works and services of christian commiseration and charity here mentioned , in the bowels of the same kinde of faith , out of which they actually proceeded from their better world-provided brethren , and were performed by them but this occasionally here , and by the way , for the better explication of that justification , which the scripture so constantly , ( as we have heard ) ascribeth unto faith . . concerning that faith , unto which the justification mentioned , is ascribed , the scripture describeth it with much variety in respect of its object . sometimes it calleth it a believing god , rom. . . jam. . ▪ sometimes a believing on god , joh. , . sometimes a believing in god , or in the lord , act. . . joh. . ● . act. . . once it is called , the faith of the operation of god , who raised christ from the dead , col. . . sometimes a believing on christ , or , on the son of god , or on the lord , act. . . joh. . & . . joh. . ( besides many other places ) sometimes again it is called a believing in christ . joh . and so , in jesus , rom. . ( and oft elsewhere ) otherwhile it is expressed , by believing christ , or the son , joh. . . sometimes , by a believing that christ is christ , the son of god that was to come into the world , joh. . . and again a believing that jesus christ is the son of god , act. . . see also joh. . . and again , joh. . . sometimes it is called , a believing in christs name , joh. . . & joh. . . & joh. . . it is very possible that yet there may be in the scriptures a greater variety of denominations or expressions of that faith , which justifieth , in reference to its object , then that now represented . but all these that have been mentioned ( and i doubt nor , but those others also supernumerary unto these , if any such there be ) are of an easie and ready reducement into one and the same notion and import . but that distinguishing character ( one , or more ) of the justifying faith , which we are at present enquiring after , respecteth not the object , but the intrinsick nature or complexion of it . the scripture , in reference hereunto , sometime describeth it to be a believing in the heart , rom. . . other while , a believing with the heart , rom. . . sometimes again , a believing with all the heart , act. . . it is twice called , a faith unfeigned , tim. . . tim. . . the faith of a spurious kinde , and which differs in nature , worth , and value from it , is termed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a dead faith , jam ▪ . . . . and by consequence the true faith which justifieth , must be understood to be a living faith . but the most appropriate nature of this faith , or the property of it , which is most considerable , and which indeed ( upon the matter ) includeth all the other now mentioned , and most emphatically differenceth it from all other kindes of faith , which want the seal of god to make them justifying , is that declared and asserted by the apostle paul , gal. . where the holy ghost guided his pen to these words for in jesus christ [ i. e. in the doctrine of jesus christ , and by the tenor , and import of the gospell ] neither circumcision availeth any thing [ viz. towards any mans justification before god ] nor uncircumcision , but faith {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , effectually operative , or throughly working by love . his meaning is , that such a faith in god , which is raised , or wrought in a man by means of jesus christ as given by god unto men for a saviour , and which , withall is spiritfull , lively and active in provoking the soul in which it resides , to the love of god and men , and to wayes and works suteable to such an affection , is the only thing or means designed , authorized and appointed by god to bring men into part and fellowship of that justification , or remission of sins , which hath been purchased or procured by the death of jesus christ ▪ for men . a faith of this genius , temper and complexion , borroweth no aid , help or assistance from any of her children ( i mean from any of those good works , which proceed from her ) for or towards that justifying of men with that justification , which standeth in remission of sins : she is by vertue of that authority derived unto her by god , self-sufficient to give this great and happy investiture unto men ; yea should she die before she had opportunity to bring forth , she would do that worthy service to him that had conceived her . it is true , as concerning that justification , of which the apostle james speaks so much in his second chapter , which is a justification of a person testified , declared , published , or made known , the faith we speak of standeth in need of the help and cooperation ( as the same apostle there speaks v. . ) of her children . god himself will not report any man justified ( i mean , any man capable of good works ) nor would he have any man ( of this capacity ) judged or reputed by others a justified person , who hath not justified or commended his faith by such works . but this by the way to vindicate and clear the interest of faith in the great business of justification , and to sever it from that of works , not more contended for , then confounded with it , by some . to conclude this section ; the vertue or power , by which faith justifieth , it receiveth from the designation , ordinance , appointment , or decree of god : the manner how it justifieth , is by the giving of men interest or part in the great benefit of remission of sins purchased by christ , according to the tenor of gods ordinance or decree in that behalf . they who conceive or teach that faith justifieth as it is an instrument receiving christs righteousnesse , or christ himself , unadvisedly stamble at that popish notion ( as it is frequently charged upon men of that perswasion , by protestant writers ) which placeth the justifying nature or vertue of faith in somewhat , in some worth that is essential and intrinsick to it . for evident it is , that there is nothing more inward or essential unto faith , then the receiving of christ , or christs righteousnesse , this being the very nature and substance of it . whereas the ordinance , will , or decree of god , which investeth faith , or the receiving of christ , with the great priviledge or power of justifying men , is apparently extrinsecal and extra-essential to it , and so ministreth no occasion in the least unto faith to boast of any excellency or considerablenesse of worth in it self , but resolves that which is of that high and sacred concernment in it unto men , as viz. to justifie and to save them , into the grace and good pleasure of god . but i have given an account of my judgement touching this point somewhat more at large elsewhere . and this at present may serve to clear the interest of faith in , or about justification , and to shew particularly and distinctly what part it acteth in the investiture of men , who have sinned , with that blessednesse . . concerning repentance , that it also is no stranger sect. unto justification , or remission of sins , but hath a very material imployment or part assigned unto it by god about the enstating of sinners therein , is the frequent and distinct voyce of the scriptures . repent ye therefore ( saith peter unto the jewes , act . . ) and be converted , that your sins may be bloued out &c. it is said of john , that he baptized in the wildernesse , and preached the baptisme of repentance for the remission of sins , mar. . . i suppose the great and blessed effect here mentioned , justification , or remission of sins , is not intended by the evangelist as the effect of baptisme , either only , or so much ( if at all ) but rather of repentance : and that baptisme is therefore called , the baptisme of repentance for , &c. ( if repentance it self be not here rather termed , metaphorically , a baptisme , i. e. a washing or cleansing a mans self from the defilement of sin , but if this be not probable ) baptisme ( i say ) may be called , the baptisme of repentance for the remission of sins , because it is a sacramental pledge or ordinance of god vouchsafed unto the christian world , to insure remission of sins upon repentance , in such a character or form of speaking , as that of the prophet elisha upon the shooting of an arrow by the king of israel as he was directed by this prophet ; and he said , the arrow of the lords deliverance , and the arrow of deliverance from syria ; meaning , that the kings shooting the arrow by order from god signified unto him by the prophet , was a confirmatory sign unto him , and so intended by god , that he and his people should be delivered out of the hand of their enemies the syrians , king. . . of the like construction is that of peter to his new converts , repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins , &c. act. . . the coupling of remission of sins so close with repentance , as is found , luk. . . and act. ▪ . is ( i conceive a pregnant argument that the latter hath an indispensable interest in procuring the former . the tenour of the former of these texts , is this . and [ christ ] said unto them , thus it is written , and thus it behoved christ to suffer , and to rise from the dead the third day : and that repentance and remission of sins , should be preached in his name among all nations , &c. of the latter , this : him hath god exalted with his right hand , to be a prince and a saviour , for to give repentance unto israel , and forgivenesse of sins . upon the same account likewise it was , that those christian jewes , act. . . termed that repentance which they concluded from peters relation , that god had granted unto the gentiles a repentance unto life [ meaning , unto justification , or , forgivenesse of sins , which the apostle paul calls , the justification of life , rom. . . that is , a justification , which restores a sinner unto life , i. e. unto a right , title , and capacity of eternal life , who before was under a sentence of condemnation , and so dead in law . so then the questionis , how repentance may be conceived to operate towards justification , or what it contributeth thereunto . i answer , . in the generall , it seems to be joyned in the same commission with faith , and to be insisted upon , and required by god in the nature of a condition , or qualification , to render men meet for so sacred an investiture , or priviledge , as justification , or , remission of sins . and it is matter of ready observation , that the scripture maketh the like great and precious promises unto the one , and unto the other ; yea and threatneth the want of the one , and of the other , with the same severe and terrible judgements . this matter being so well known , we shall not need quotation-proofs . yea , . there seems to be a kinde of a mutual or reciprocal involution between repentance , and faith ; not such as is between ordinary causes , and their effects , but between such causes , and effects , which , in different considerations and respects , are mutually both causes , and effects , the the one unto the other . repentance , considered in the initiatory , or imperfect work of it , comprehends faith in it , as causes ( especially moral causes ) their effects , i. e. dispositively , seminally , vertually , and the like . again , faith being brought into the soul , by the opportunity of such a repentance , as a form into matter disposed , or prepared , carries on that repentance to greater perfection , by means whereof , whilest it was yet in its minority , it self was furthered in its being . so that as faith was dispositively , or preparative-wise in repentance , whilest repentance was imperfect ; so is repentance perfectively , or in respect of its consummation , in faith . the scripture speaks evidently of a repentance precedaneous unto faith ; yea and seems to assert a necessity of the precedency of it , in order unto faith . and ye ( saith the lord christ to the chief priests , and elders of the jewes ) when ye had seen it , repented not afterward , that ye might believe him ( speaking of johns testimony concerning him , as that he was the true messiah , and saviour of the world ) mat. . . so the apostle paul adviseth timothy to instruct in meeknesse those that oppose themselves , if god peradventure will [ or rather , shall ] give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth k , [ i. e. a repentance , which shall dispose , or put them into an immediate capacity to believe the truth of the gospell . as on the contrary our saviour expostulates thus with the jewes : how can ye believe , who receive honour one of another ( joh. . . ) clearly implying that there was a necessity lying upon them to repent of that their ambitious and self-seeking humor , to put them into a regular or hopefull capacity of believing . thus then we see that , according to the scriptures , there is a repentance , which is an harbinger or way-preparer unto faith : in respect whereof , faith may be said to be dispositively ( as hath been sayd ) and by way of preparation , in repentance . but this repentance , notwithstanding the great service it doth unto men in accommodating their way towards believing , yea and proceedeth also from the grace of god , and is to a degree and in its measure accepted with him , in whomsoever it is found , yet is it but imperfect , and wants many degrees of that strength and soundnesse , which afterwards it receiveth by its conjuction and communion with faith . and so , in respect of this inlargement or additional perfection , it may be said to have a being in faith . i doe not think it worth the making a controversie , or dispute , whether that repentance which goeth before faith , and qualifies the subject for a more ready or willing reception of it , and that which followes and accompanies faith , be of one and the same species , or of different . yet i rather incline to think , that they do not only not differ specie ( unlesse it be specie accidentali , as a man differs from a childe , a man learned from a man illitetate , a man that is poor , from a man that is rich , and the like , ) but not so much as in individuo ; as paul was the same individuum , when he was a man , which he was when he was a child . that the one hath justification , or remission of sins , annexed unto it by promise from god , and the other , not , doth no more prove them to differ specie , no nor yet individuo , then pauls proving in time a great and faithfull apostle , and chosen vessel unto god , proveth him to have been , either of another species , or another individuum , when he was a fierce persecutor , and ( as himself acknowledgeth ) of sinners the chief . but this circle of discourse , is ( i confesse ) somewhat eccentrical to our businesse in hand , which is not to distinguish repentance as preceding , and as accompanying faith , but to inquire out , and declare , as god shall inable and direct , what , or how , repentance , as included in , or accompanying faith , operateth towards justification , or remission of sins . that which i conceive , is this . god not judging it meet to invest a person , who yet retains the love and liking of sinfull and wicked wayes , with so great , and sacred a priviledge , and grace , as forgiveness of sins , was pleased to establish it for a law , that no man or woman remaining impenitent , and without unfeigned remorse of soul for their sins past , should ever be admitted into part and fellowship of that unspeakable grace of his in jesus christ , which consists in pardon , or remission of sins . again , being highly pleased with that most regular , generous , and worthy deportment of soul , in whomsoever it should be found , which consists in a genuine and real hatred and abhorrency of all unrighteousnesse , and of whatsoever is sinfull or unclean , enacted another law in honour of this heroick act and deportment , viz. that whosoever should with his whole heart and soul repent of all his sinfull miscarriages and misdoings , and stand resolved in heart for wayes of purity and uprightnesse for the future , should be translated by him into that blessed state , which standeth in remission of all sin . so that repentance seems to operate two wayes towards justification , or remission of sins . first , in the nature , or after the manner , of that kinde of cause , which logicians call removens prohibens , i. e. which contributeth towards an effect , by removing that out of the way , which being not removed , would have hindered it . thus the taking away of the dignity , place , and power , of the roman emperors , was the cause of the discovery or rising up of the anti-christian race , and their power , thess. ▪ , . so repentance , by removing that wretched and wicked habit or frame of soul , which being un-removed , would have obstructed the grace and blessing of pardon of sin , contributeth towards the obtaining of it . secondly , as repentance includes in the nature and constituting principles of it , a disposition or frame of heart so highly pleasing unto god , that he judgeth it no wayes unworthy of him , to honour and reward it with so great a reward , as remission of sins , so it may be conceived to contribute or operate towards remission of sins , or justification , tanquam causa dispositiva , i. e. as regularly qualifying the subject for the reception of the form to be brought into it . by this ( i suppose ) the interest of repentance , or that which it acteth towards , in , or about justification , may be clearly distinguished from the interest of faith , and that which it acteth in reference to the same end . when god in scripture is said to justifie the ungodly , the meaning is not that he justifies ungodly persons , whilest they are or remain ungodly ; but he is said to justifie the ungodly , in like form of speech , as our saviour useth , mat. . . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. that is , the blinde see , the lame walke , the leapers are cleansed , and the deaf hear . the meaning clearly enough is , not that the blinde , whilest blinde , did see ; or the lame , whilest they remained lame , did walk , or that the lepers whilest their leprosie was yet upon them , were cleansed , &c. but that such who had been formerly and untill christ relieved them , blinde , lame , lepers , deaf , were by him miraculously restored , such as had been blinde , to their sight ; such as had been lame , to the usefulnesse of their limbs for walking , &c. in like manner god is said to justifie the ungodly , when he justifies , or makes such persons righteous by the pardon of their sins , who had formerly been ungodly , prophane , &c. but he doth not justifie them , or make them righteous by the forgivenesse of their sins , whilest they remain ungodly ; but upon the alteration and change of the sinfull frame of their hearts , by believing , he conferres this justification upon them , viz. the forgivenesse of their sins . and the reason why god doth not judge it meet to justifie men , or forgive them their sins , whilest they remain ungodly , unrighteous , wicked , prophane , or the like , may be , partly to cut off all occasion from his creature to conceive of him as a friend to sin , or to impenitent and obdurate sinners ; partly also to contrive his grace and high favour in justification , into an alluring argument , and strong motive to perswade men out of the love and liking of sin , and sinfull wayes , into the love and practise of righteousnesse and true holinesse . the apostle paul was put to apologize for his doctrine of the grace of god in forgivenesse of sins , because according to it , this grace is promised and given unto sinners , though unto such sinners only , who repent , and bring forth fruits meet for repentance . but if ( saith he ) whilest we seek to be justified by christ , we our selves also are found sinners , is therefore christ the minister of sin ? [ i. e. doth christ by justifying such sinners , as he justifieth , viz. such who believe and repent , countenance , abet , or promote sin in the world ] god forbid , gal. . . if then inconsiderate and unworthy men conceive that god would be liable to an imputation of favouring or cherishing sin in men , in case he should justifie or pardon all sinners upon their repentance , ( which now he doth ) how much more obnoxious would he have been , in such mens opinions , to this imputation and charge , in case he should have indulged this high priviledge of justification unto sinners without repentance ? upon this account then it is most probable , that god hath not judged it meet to admit or allow any other kinde of faith to bring men into communion of the death of christ for the forgivenesse of their sins , but only that which is accompanyed with an unfeigned repentance , or which purifieth and cleanseth the heart ( or at least is apt so to doe ) from the love and liking of all unrighteousnesse and uncleannesse . if it be thus , then the interposure or interest of repentance about justification is by way of qualification , or of rendering the subject , the sinner , regularly capable of that high and sacred priviledge . and though it doth not perform the office or work of faith about justification , which is ( as hath been said ) to bring men into the fellowship of the death of christ where , and where only , justification or remission of sins , is to be had , yet it legitimates or authorizeth the person for the reception of this blessed accommodation from the hand of faith : and for this reason also it may well be conceived to have the promise of justification , or remission of sins , made unto it , as well as faith it self . sect. . that good works have their part also in the great businesse of justification , is the expresse affirmation of the scripture . ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only , jam. . . again : was not abraham our father justified by works , when he had offered isaac his son upon the altar , jam. . . we have already upon occasion , argued and shewed the interest of works in , or about justification . peruse § . we shall here partly adde , and partly repeat ; . that that justification , which consists in remission of sins , and which enstates a person in a right of title and claim to eternal life , is not attained , but by sinners being brought into communion with christ in his death ; or ( which is the same ) into part and fellowship in this death , which is the only procuring cause of this justification , by way of purchase . . that whatsoever bringeth men hither , ( i mean , into communion of , or with the death of christ ) must be sealed and authorized by god hereunto . . that a true and unfaigned faith in god through jesus christ ( sometimes called , faith in christ , yea and several other wayes expressed , as hath been already observed ) and this faith only , not any work , or works , of what kinde soever , or in what number soever , injoyned in the moral law , hath a commission or power from god to bring men into , or to give men part and fellowship in the death of christ . therefore good works have thus farre no part or interest at all in justification , as it standeth in remission of sins , being excluded here-from by the same law , by which boasting also is excluded , which the apostle termeth , the law of faith . where is boasting then ? it is excluded . by what law ? of works ? nay , but by the law of faith ? rom . . by this law , faith hath the office or work of justifying men in this sense , and with this kinde of justification , setled upon , and confirmed unto , it self , alone . there is another kinde of justification , which the scripture also frequently speaks of under this name ( as was noted § . . ) which consists in the approbation , commendation , or vindication of a person from guilt or blame , whether justly , or unjustly , imputed unto him . of this kinde of justification , when it is duely and justly given , or pronounced , good works , in one kinde or other , and for the most part those of the moral law , have a special and particular interest in it , being the only regular ground upon which the act , or sentence , of such a justification , can , or ought to proceed . and though god , by means of his appropriate priviledge of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or knowing the heart , can , and doth , upon a sufficient ground , secretly and in himself , approve of him , who as yet only believeth ( i mean , with a true and unfeigned faith ) and before he hath any wayes justified or commended this his faith by good works , yet he is not wont to signifie or declare , by one means , or other , this his approbation of any particular person , untill he hath shewed the world his faith by his works . nor doth he require of any man to judge of any other person ▪ as a man justified in his sight by a true and unfaigned faith , who hath not given either unto him , or unto some others , from whom he may receive the information , a fair and reasonable account by works suteable , of such a faith residing in him . and questionlesse it was this kinde of justification , of which the apostle james discourseth so largely in his second chapter , as appeareth all along the context , from vers . . to the end . therefore when he demands , vers . was not our father abraham justified by works , when he had offered his son isaac upon the altar ? evident it is , that by abrahams being justified , he doth not mean , that abraham had his sins pardoned ; for he had been thus justified long before . and besides , his offering up his son isaac upon the altar , could be no means of obtaining remission of sins from god . but when he is said to have been justified by works , when he had offered , &c. the meaning is , that upon this great testimony given by abraham of the truth and effectualnesse of his faith , god highly approved of him , loved him , and dealt by him as by a person righteous and just , and called him his friend . the tenour of the story in genesis fully accordeth herewith . for immediately upon abrahams stretching forth his hand , and taking the knife to slay his son , the angel of the lord called unto him ●ut of heaven , and sayd , lay not thine hand upon the lad , neither do thou any thing unto him : for now i know that thou fearest god , seeing that thou hast not with-held thy son , thine only son , from me , gen. . , . a second time also , the angel , upon this offering up of his son , called unto him out of heaven , and sayd ; by my self have i sworn , saith the lord : for , because thou hast done this thing , and hast not with-held thy son , thine only s●n , that in blessing i will bless thee , and in multiplying , i will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven , and as the sand which is upon the sea shore ; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies : and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed , because thou hast obeyed my voyce , gen. . . , , . in these passages , is that justification of abraham expressed and contained ; whereof the apostle james speaketh , affirming him to have obtained it at the hand of god by works , as well as by his faith , which he sayth , wrought together with them [ meaning , towards the procuring , or obtaining of this justification , or approbation from god ] and was by them perfected [ or made perfect ] i. was declared to be perfect , that is , sound and good ; or else , was perfected , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. became effectuall to the obtaining of its proper end [ viz. the approbation and love of god , with favourable and friendly respects from him ] which is the perfection [ viz. arguitivè , or argumentatively ] of any thing . as on the contrary , when any thing , pretending to be a means for the compassing of such , or such an end , proves yet unable to effect it , this argueth , though ( haply ) not alwayes demonstratively , the imperfection , or weakness of it . in much a like sense to that , wherein abraham ( as we have heard ) is sayd to have been justified by works , is rahab the harlot also , [ i. who formerly had been an harlot ] sayd to have been justified , v. . the meaning is , that upon rahab's demonstration of the reality and truth of her faith , ▪ in exposing her life to danger , by entertaining and hiding the spies sent from joshua , god entreated her , as a justified , or righteous person , by preserving her and her fathers house , for her sake , with all that she had , when the city she dwelt in , with all that was in it , both man , and woman , young , and old ( besides ) were utterly destroyed with the edge of the sword , josh. . , , , &c. so that the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to be justified , in this coutexture of discourse , doth not signifie the proper effect of that act of god , by which he constitutes ▪ or makes men righteous , or just , or by which he justifies them ; but the effect , one , or more , of some such act of his , by which he expresseth himself lovingly , graciously , and bountifully towards such persons , who are , or have been justified and made righteous by him , and hereby declares , and ( after a sort ) pronounceth them righteous . but he doth not judge it fitting , or meet thus to countenance them , or to entreat them as righteous , or justified persons , untill they have first given a good testimony of the reality and soundness of that faith , upon , and by which , he justifieth them . the expression wherein a person is sayd to be justified , when he is only respected , or dealt with , as being justified , i. as a justified person , is metonymicall , and frequent in scripture , the antecedent being oft put for the consequent . thus by hunting , gen. . . is meant , taking , or getting , by hunting : and deut. . . to make a son the first-born , signifies , to respect him , as the first-born , or to confer upon him the priviledge of the first-born . so also , rom. . . to be made sinners , imports , a being made lyable unto punishment , or such a condition which belongs unto sinners ( to omit many the like ) in this sense and notion of the word , justifie , the lord christ may be sayd to justifie those that shall stand at his right hand in the great day , in saying thus unto them ; come yee blessed of my father , inherit the kingdome prepared for you from the foundation of the world . the reason , or ground in equity of this justification , is declared in the words next following : for i was an hungry , and yee gave me meat , i was thirsty , and yee gave me drink , &c. ( mat. . , , &c. ) this most gracious address and application of christ unto those that shall be saved , especially in conjunction with that most dreadfull and soul-confounding address ( immediatly following ) unto those that shall eternally perish ; depart from me , yee cursed , into everlasting fire , &c. together with the reason hereof ( in the next words ) for i was an hungred , and yee gave me no meat , &c. i say , these respective decisions , or adjudications of christ , plainly evince and prove , that no person whatsover [ of years of discretion , and actually capable of knowing good , and evill ] shall receive the great benefit and blessing of justification , by means of any such faith , which shall not utter and approve it self before god and men , by fruitfulness in well-doing , according to such means and opportunities , as shall have been afforded unto them . and this also is the apparant drift and scope of the apostle james in that discourse , some passages whereof we lately sifted , and insisted upon , out of his second chapter . thus we see what the interest and part of good works is in the great business of justification , according to the scriptures . . that remission of sins likewise is no alien , or sect. stranger unto justification , but in some neer imployment about it , is of ready demonstration from the scriptures . the discourse of the apostle rom. . from v. . to v. . ( inclusivè ) is pregnant to this purpose ; but to him ( saith , he , v. . ) that worketh not [ viz. with an intent , or hope of being justified by his working ; or , that worketh not , i. that wanteth works competent , or sufficient to justifie him ] but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly [ meaning god , who justifieth even those that have been ungodly , and so must needs be without works meritorious of justification , upon their believing ] his faith is counted for righteousness , [ i. he is made a righteous , or just man by means of his believing , and is accordingly looked upon by god ] even as david also describeth the blessedness : [ i. either the justification , or the blessedness accruing by it ] of the man unto whom god imputeth righteousness ] i. whom he justifieth ] without works [ viz. which are any wayes meritorious of justification : for this apostle , by works , in opposition unto faith , in the business of justification , constantly understandeth , the merit of works : in which sense also his adversaries the jews understood , and urged it ] saying , blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven , and whose sins are covered ; blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin . by this description from the pen of david , of the blessedness of the man , unto whom god imputeth righteousness . ( i. justifieth , as hath been been shewed . ) it appears , that his righteousness , or justification ( passively taken ) which is the cause , or means of his blessedness , consists in the forgiveness of his iniquities , or which is the same in substance , though differing in consideration , or respect ) in the non-imputation of sin unto him . by means as well of the one , as of the other of these , the mans sins are sayd to be covered ; that is ( i conceive ) to pass unpunished , indempnity from punishment , being a kind of veyl by which the sins of transgressors are kept from being much minded , or taken notice of by men : as on the other hand , when god openly judgeth , or punisheth men for their sins , he is sayd to un-cover , or dis-cover them , ezek. . . . ezek. . . and elsewhere . now by that description ( as the apostle termeth it ) which david giveth ( as we have heard ) of the blessedness of the justified person , placing it in this , that his iniquities , or sins , are remitted , or forgiven , it is a clear case , that remission of sins justifieth per modum causae formalis , as the form , or formall cause is sayd to give being to that which is caused by it . when a painter maketh a wall white , whiteness is the form , or formall cause , by which the wall is made white , or which maketh the wall white . nor can it be with reason reduced to any of the other kinds of causes , as is evident ; it being no efficient , or materiall , or ●●…all cause hereof , nor carrying the least semblance of any of these . in like manner , when god justifieth a sinner , that which he doth to him , or for him , is precisely this , he forgiveth him his sins ; this is the very form of that his action , i. the form which by his act of justifying , he introduceth anew upon the sinner . nor doth he any other thing , directly and immediatly , unto a person , when , and as he justifieth him , but only forgive him his sins . of one and the same act , or action , there cannot be a plurality of effects , immediate and direct , really differing the one from the other . it is true , as there may be sundry collaterall , constructive , vertuall , or consequentiall acts acted , or done , in the doing of some one ; so there may be , nay , there alwaies is , an answerable variety of effects produced by , and so attributable unto , this one act. when a prince prefers some head of a family to a great place of profit and power in the state , or any other person , who is a lover of his friends and relations in blood , he may be sayd to cast honour upon this person , to better his condition in the world , to raise his family , to give every particular member hereof hope of being better accommodated in matters of this life ; yea , in case he doth bestow this preferment upon him for his fathers , or any of his ancestors sake , as for any worth in them , or for any good service done by them , or the like ; in preferring him , he may be sayd to impute the worth , or faithfulness of such an ancestor unto him . but all such acts as these , are but mediate , constructive , or consequentiall ; and so are their respective effects to be interpreted likewise . a prince when he prefers a man , in strict propriety of speaking , doth nothing else but prefer him , or ( which is the same ) confers some place of profit , or of honour upon him . in like manner , when god justifieth a man , he may be sayd to bless him , to translate him from death to life , to give him a lawfull title , or claim to eternall life , and his heavenly kingdome : and because he doth it upon the account , and for the sake , of the obedience of christ , as well active , as passive ( although in a more peculiar manner , upon the account of the latter , the scripture constantly ascribing justification , unto the blood , death , sufferings , &c. of christ , and never , to my remembrance , unto his active obedience , unless haply as presupposed unto his passive , and as qualifying it for its high service ) i say , because god justifieth men for the sake of christ , and for what he hath done and suffered in serving his counsell and good pleasure , he may , when he justifieth any man , be sayd to impute the righteousness , or obedience of christ unto him . and because , in order to this act of his ( i mean his act of justifying a man ) he requires faith of him , and faith only ( in the sense formerly declared and asserted ) when he justifieth him , he may be sayd , to count , or to impute his faith unto him for righteousness . again , when he justifieth a man , because he graciously confers upon him a righteousness of his own invention and contrivance , and doth not justifie him , with , for , or upon , any righteousness found in him , whom he justifieth , therefore when he justifieth him , he is sayd , to impute righteousness unto him , i. ( as it were ) to gratifie him with a righteousness , remission of sins being a righteousness , properly enough so called , in as much as he , who is chargable with no sin , which is his priviledge , or case , who hath all his sins justly and authoritatively remitted , must needs be looked upon as an observer of the whole law . but when god justifieth a person , he doth none of these things to him in a direct , formall , or immediate way , but constructively , or consecutively only . all that he doth upon such terms , is only this , he justifieth him , i. he remitteth unto him all his sins , remission of sins being that absolute and compleat righteousness , wherewith a sinner is invested by god in his justification , besides which , such a person is not capable of any , nor standeth in need of any , for the attainment of any end , or benefit of righteousness whatsoever . and as for those that have been the greatest sinners , and neither gave meat unto christ , when he was an hungry , nor drink , when he was thirsty , nor cloathed him when he was naked , &c. if so be god should remit these , and all other their sins unto them ( which yet he cannot without their timely repentance , and contrary practising for a season , because this would be to deny himself , i mean , his righteousness and truth ) they should hereby become as righteous , and as capable of the reward of righteousness , as the greatest saints , and those who continued for the longest time walking with god . this concerning remission of sins , and what part it beareth in the great , and mysterious work of justification . . that the scriptures , or word of god , are not sect. meer standers by neither , or lookers on , in the business of justification , but have somewhat to do in reference unto it , and for the promoting it , sufficiently appears from these and such like sayings of the holy ghost in the scriptures . so then faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god , rom. . . send men to joppa , and call for simon , whose sirname is peter , who shall tell the words , whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved , act. . , . abraham believed god [ i. the word of god ] and it was counted unto him for righteousness , rom. . . true faith ( whether in the act , or habit , or both ) having such an essentiall connexion by the will and pleasure of god ( as we have heard ) with justification , and never failing to obtain it , whatsoever any wayes worketh faith , or contributeth towards the raising of it in the soul , must needs in that respect , and so far , have an hand in justification ; according to that known principle in reason , ( formerly mentioned ) quod est causa causae est etiam causa causati : that which in any consideration gives being to the cause , is in that respect , a cause of the effect produced by it . now the scripture , or the word of god , ( i mean , the mind , councell , or will of god , which are the substance , matter , or truth , contained and held forth in and by the scriptures , which we are taught in them to call the word of god , which matter , or truth , are held forth likewise , taught , and declared , in part , other-wayes then in the scriptures , as by the light of nature , works of creation , of providence , &c. ) i say , the scripture , or word of god , thus understood , is the only object , or subject matter , of that hearing , by which faith ( ordinarily ) cometh ( as the apostle even now informed us ) meaning , that faith by which men are justified . and as sanctification is ascribed unto the word o● god [ sanctifie them through thy truth : thy word is the truth , joh. . . ] mediante fide , by the intervening and mediation of faith , or the belief of it ( heb. . ) so may justification by the same mediation , be ascribed unto it likewise . yea , faith it self , which justifieth more immediatly and directly ( and consequently , justification ) may be ascribed unto it , not only as it is the subject matter , or object of that hearing , by which the faith which justifieth is produced ( as hath been already sayd ) but as it is such a word , or the matter of it so qualified and conditioned , that it is very apt , pregnant , and potent , to work , or raise that faith in the hearts and minds of men , which by divine institution ( as we have heard ) is justifying . for it is every wayes , and on every hand , so {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , so worthy , meet , or fit to be believed , and so authoritatively , and with that power of evidence and conviction , commanding the obedience of faith ( as the scripture speaks ) unto it , that such persons , to whom it is preached , or set forth like it self , must needs have much , either of the bruit , or of the devil in them ( if there be place for the distinction , and the bruit in men be not the devil in the shape , or likeness of a so● ) if they give not the honour and homage of faith unto it . but of this i have reasoned more at large in a treatise concerning the divine authority of the scriptures . and thus we see , how , and after what manner the scriptures also , or word of god , are operative in their way towards the justification of a sinner , and may be sayd to justifie : they instruct and teach men the way that leadeth unto justification ; yea , they most effectually perswade , urge , and press men to walk in this way ( i mean , the way of believing ) and by their innate property to convince the judgments and consciences of men , of the truth of what they teach , and say , they do much facilitate , or make easie bo●h mens entrance into , and their walking likewise in , this way . and as the law is sayd to have constituted , or made men high priests ( heb. . . ) because it directed and taught men how to make them , as viz. by the performance of all those observations , rites , and ceremonies prescribed in this law , to give this great and sacred investiture , to a person capable by gods appointment of the dignity , and then by declaring and authorizing them for such in the name of god . in like manner , the gospel , or word of god , may be sayd to constitute , or make men righteous , i. to justifie them , both because it teacheth and prescribeth unto them what they ought to do , and must do , that they may be justified ; and then by authority derived from god , and in his name , pronounce , avouch , and declare them for such ( i mean for persons justified ) when they have performed and done that , which they prescribe on this behalf . . that the publishers , or ministers of the gospel , sect. are not without some part and fellowship in the glorious and blessed business of justification , and according to their interest herein , may be sayd to justifie , is not a forc'd or far-fetch conclusion from the scriptures . for when the apostle paul writeth to timothy , that by doing what he had directed him to do , he should both save himself , and those that heard him , tim. . . and so assumeth unto himself a capacity of the same glorious service , rom. . . if by any means i may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh , and might save some of them : when ( i say ) he ascribeth that great act and service of saving men unto the ministers of the gospel , he doth implicitely , and by neer ▪ hand consequence , ascribe unto them the justifying of them likewise : for there is no consideration , or respect , wherein a minister can be sayd to save men , but by a precedaneous , or presupposed act of justifying them . nor is there any person capable of being saved by a minister of the gospell , in his way , or capacity of saving men , who is not as capable ( or rather , more capable ) of being justified by him . yea , dan. . . where our english translation readeth , and they that turn many unto righteousness [ shall shine ] as the stars for ever and ever . junius and tremelius from the originall , render it , et justificant e multos ▪ &c. and they that justifie many shall shine , &c. so likewise arias montanus translateth , together with the late dutch annotators . the scripture from place to place mentions it as the proper work of the minister ; and as principally intended by god in the erection of the ministeriall function in the world , to make men and women the sons and daughters of god by believing : the same [ john ] came for a witness , to bear witness of the light , that all men through him might believe , joh. . . so the apostle demands , who then is paul , and who is apollo , but ministers by whom yee believed ? cor. ▪ . and calls timothy , his own son in the faith , tim. , . now in such a sense , wherein men may be sayd to be made believers by the ministers of the gospel , they may be sayd to be justified also by them ; inasmuch as both these are accomplished or effected by one and the same act , the former , directly and immediatly , the latter mediatly and consequentially . if you then ask me , what doth the minister contribute towards the justifying of men , or in what consideration may he be sayd to justifie them ? my answer is , when he openeth unto them the councell of god in the gospell , concerning the justification and salvation of men by jesus christ , so effectually , so throughly , and with that evidence and demonstration of the spirit , ( as the apostle speaks ) that mens reasons , judgments , and consciences are so far convinced , or perswaded of the truth of what is delivered upon such terms , that they truly , unfeignedly , and with the whole heart believe it : now , and upon this account , he may be sayd to justifie them . he that makes a man a believer , ipso facto , makes him righteous , that is , justifies him . there is nothing more familiar and frequent in the scripture , then for the same action , and so the same effect , to be ascribed both unto god and man : to the former , in respect of a superiour and more excellent interposure , proper unto him ▪ to the latter , in respect of that subordinate efficiency , or subserviency ▪ wherewith , god hath been pleased to honour him ; a yea , the apostle paul termeth the ministers of the gospel , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , fellow-workers , or workers together , with god [ in , and about , the saving of the souls of men ] cor. . . . that there is a consideration and sense also , wherein the person justified may be sayd to justifie himself , the scripture it self seems to acknowledge : for when it is sayd concerning timothy , that by taking heed sect. to himself , and to tho doctrine [ taught by him ] he should both save himself , and them that heard him , ( tim. . . ) there is an action ascribed unto him , in reference unto himself , every whit as great , and as incompetent to him , in the ordinary signification of the word , as the act of justifying . to save a mans self , sounds altogether as high , as to justifie a mans self : yea , he that believeth , may by much a neerer-hand consequence , and with more propriety of speaking , be said to justifie himself , then to save himself . when a man labours ▪ in his calling , and puts forth that strength of power which god hath given him to get wealth [ deut. . . ] for such a purpose , and withall thrives and prospers ( through the blessing of god ) in his way , he may properly enough be sayd to enrich himself , or make himself rich ; yea , somewhat more properly , then when it is said , that the hand of the diligent maketh rich , prov. . . in like manner , when a man doth that , upon which , or by means wherof , he shall certainly be justified , this fruit , or reward of his action , his justification , may without the violation of any rule , either of grammar , or of rhetorick , be ascribed unto him . hence it follows , god having by a perpetuall and inviolable decree setled the great benefit and priviledge of justification upon believing , that when soever any person , man , or woman , shall life up his heart hereunto ( i mean , to believe ) by this action he may be said to justifie himself ; not indeed after any such manner , or upon any such terms , as god is said to justifie men upon their believing , as viz. authoritatively , or as having a soveraign right to justifie whom , or upon what terms he pleaseth , or the like ; but in such a way , or sense only , wherein a person may be said to do that , which , upon his action , is done unto him by another . of this construction , or dialect , there are instances more then a few in the scriptures . it may be here demanded , but is it meet , or tolerable to say , that a man , when he believeth , imputeth righteousness unto himself , or forgiveth himself his sins ▪ and yet both these are done unto him by another ( viz. god ) upon his believing ▪ yea , these are ( as hath in effect been formerly sayd ) but interpretative expressions of justification it self . and therefore it seems , that whosoever may in any sense be said to justifie , may in the same sense be said to do both the one , and the other of these ; and this in reference to any , or all of these persons , whom they are sayd to justifie . to this i answer , . that the expressions put to the question in this demand , are ( indeed ) uncouth and harsh , grating upon eares , that have any competent tast of words ; nor do i judge them fitting to be applied to , or spoken of him that believeth . but , . when a man is said by believing to justifie himself , the meaning is not , that he absolveth himself from his sins , or pronounceth a sentence of absolution over himself , or that he imputeth righteousness unto himself , or the like ; but only that he levieth , puts forth , or performs such an act , whereby he prevaileth with god according to his gracious covenant and promise , to justifie him , and therein to do all these things to him , or for him . as when a man is said to save himself ( which , as we heard , is the apostles own expression ) the meaning is not either , that by a strong hand , or by any physicall power , he over-matcheth the devill , and keeps himself out of his clutches , and from being carried , or thrust by him into hell , or that he invests himself with the state of blessedness and glory , which is signified and meant by salvation ; but that he takes such a course , as viz. by believing and persevering in it unto the end , whereby he shall find favour in the sight of god , to do these things for him . now to say a man by believing takes an effectuall and direct course to prevail with god to forgive him his sins , to impute righteousness unto him , &c. are as proper and convenient expressions , as to say , that he prevails with him to justifie him : yet , . ( and lasty ) it may be considered , that one and the same thing may admit of severall considerations , and different respects ; and in , and under some one of these considerations and respects , may admit of some attributions , of which , it is not so regularly , or smoothly capable under another . as for instance , salvation , or the saving of the soul , is one and the same act ; yet it may be considered , either as it is procurable at the hand of god by men , as , viz. by faith , and continuance in well-doing : or as it is a rescuing , or vindication of men by strength of arm , from the power of the devill ; or as it is an actuall instating in , or putting men into a reall possession of that blessedness and glory , which god hath assigned by promise unto his saints , and those that shall be saved . now in either of these two latter considerations , it is not ascribable unto men , but in the first of the three , as we have heard , it is . in like manner , the act of justifying is one and the same act ; yet it admits of sundry considerations . ( . ) it may be considered , either as an act of god imputing righteousness unto men , or as an act of his forgiving men all their sins , or as an act of grace and high favour purchased at his hand by christ for men : or ( lastly ) as an act attainable from god by men , for themselves , by performing of such conditions , or terms , upon , and according unto which , he hath covenanted and promised the vouchsafement of it . the former considerations of the act we speak of , are of that nature , and import , that in respect of none of them , it is attributable unto men , they all importing such things which are above the line of men . but in the consideration last mentioned , it may in very passable and convenient language , be attributed unto men who believe , in reference to themselves . nor need it be offensive unto any man , to hear it said , that men who believe , in that sense justifie themselves . there are two other causes of justification yet remaining , not mentioned in the title page , amongst those that have been insisted on ; viz. the materiall , and the finall : of these in few words . concerning the materiall cause of justification , sect. they who make it to be either christ himself , or the righteousness of christ , either active , or passive , or both , express themselves very unproperly , and confound two causes alwaies distinct , and contradistinguished ; viz. the efficient , and the materiall , the former being alwaies extrinsecall , the latter , intrinsecall , to the effect , or thing caused by them ( in conjunction with the other two causes . ) and besides , in so notioning the matter , or material cause of justification , they decline the ordinary rule , by which , men who love exactness and propriety , as well in conceiving , as in speaking , are wont to walk in both , in cases of like nature and import . for whereas no action , ( as no accident besides ) hath any matter , or materiall cause ( properly so called ) yet being an effect , or somewhat that is caused , there must be some vice-matter , or somewhat answering the nature or consideration of such a materiall cause , found in it , or relating to it . now that which relateth unto an action with greatest affinity unto matter , or to a materiall cause ▪ properly so called , is , subjectum recipiens , or circa quod as logicians speak ) that is , the subject receiving the action , or the object upon which the action is acted . according to this notion , the believing , or repentant sinner , or ( which is the same ) the person justified , or to be justified , is the materiall cause of justification . such a person exhibits , or presents ( as it were ) unto god , matter duly fitted and prepared according to his mind , for him to work or act upon , or about , justifyingly . and when god doth justifie such a person , he doth introduce a new form , as , viz. righteousness , remission of sins , or justification passive ( for these i take to be much the same ) into matter rightly and appropriatly disposed for the reception of it ; which matter is ( as hath been said ) the sinner now believing . as when fire heateth the water that is hung over it , or otherwise applyed unto it , the water is the matter upon which the fire acteth in this act of calefaction , and the heat which it causeth in the water , is the form which it induceth , or introduceth into it . this briefly for the materiall cause of justification . the finall cause of justification is commonly distinguished into that which is subordinate , or less principal , and sect. that which is ultimate , and supream . the former , is with one consent affirmed to be the great benefit , or blessedness of the creature , or person justified ; which blessednesse standeth in two particulars ( chiefly ) deliverance from under the guilt of sin , ( with all the misery consequentiall hereunto ) and an investiture with a regular title or claim unto that immortall and undefiled inheritance , which is reserved in the heavens , to be enjoyed in due time by all those , who shall be found in a due capacity to be admitted into part and fellowship therein . the ultimate , or supream end , or materiall cause of justification , is concluded with a nemine contradicente ( as far as i know ) to be the glory of god , partly in the just vindication of a sinner from under the guilt of sin , and from the punishment incurred thereby , and partly in the salvation , and eternall glorification of the person so vindicated . as for the opinion , or notion of those , who conceive that god designeth nothing , acteth nothing ( in strictness and propriety of consideration ) for himself , or for his own glory , ultimately ; but all for the good and benefit of his creature : i shall not upon this occasion , either plead , or implead it ; only i shall crave leave to say this , that as far as i have yet looked into it , and conversed with it , i do not find it so extravagant , or uncouth , or so hard of reconcilement , either with the scriptures , where they seem most contradicting it , or with any the received grounds or principles of christian religion , as i suppose it is like to seem unto many at its first appearance and hearing . and though there may be more in the opinion , were it narrowly examined and scan'd , from the one end of it unto the other , as well for the glory of god , as for the benefit and comfort of the creature , yet because such an examination of it may haply require a just treatise , and more of the ordinary rank of professors are more like to be startled or amazed at it , then to embrace it , i shall therefore forbear to encumber the commonly received doctrine concerning the finall cause , or ultimate end of justification , with any further mention of it . thus we have shewed , how great a number , and what variety , as well of things , as of persons , there are , all , both of the one kind , and the other , joyning hand in hand , and making ( as it were ) one shoulder to bring the great blessing of justification upon the head of a poor sinner . god , who is wonderfull in counsell , and excellent in working , a judged it meet , that a matter of so gracious and rare , of so profound and wonderfull a contrivance , should pass through many hands , before his creature , man , to whom it was meant and intended , should be invested with the actuall possession and enjoyment of it . there is scarce any thing of a more humbling consideration to the height and pride of the spirit of a man , then to be subjected to a multiplicity of dependences , especially upon such , either persons , or things , which he either judgeth but equal unto , but most of all , if beneath himself , for the obtaining of that , of which he stands in need , and without which , he fully understands that it cannot be well with him . such a posture , or subjection as this , sets him of● at the greatest distance in his condition from god in point of true greatness and glory . nor is there any thing in all the unlimited circumference of the blessedness of god , that renders him greater , or more glorious in the eyes of his creature , then his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or self sufficiency , and his absolute independency upon all , whether persons , or things whatsoever , besides himself . and ( doubtless ) in such cases , where the number of dependencies is not established by any indispensable law , or decree of god , they that can contract themselves to the smaller number of them , for the enjoyment of themselves with comfort and contentment , will reduce their present conditions to the nearest affinity , whereof it is capable , with the blessedness of god himself . but where god hath by any revealed appointment , or declared will , suspended the attainment of any spirituall enjoyment , priviledge , or blessing , upon mens application of themselves unto him in the use of such and such means , of what number , or kind soever , their non-subjection to this law , or appointment of his in the neglect of any one of these means , is of a very dangerous and sad presage , that they will fall short in the attainment of the blessing . and for this reason my soul cannot but sadly lament over the case and condition , of all those , who have in the ignorance , vanity , and pride of their spirits , turn'd their backs upon the ministry of the gospel , setting their faces towards fancies and conceited methods of their own ( though of satans inspiration ) for their justification in the sight of god ; whereas it hath been evidently shewed and proved from the mouth of godhimself , that amongst those various actors in and about , the great business of justification , which have been presented upon the theater of this brief discourse , he hath assigned a worthy co-operation , or part , unto the ministry , and ministers of the gospel . therefore they , who disdain to have the royall robe of righteousness , or justification , put upon them by men of this function and office , as judging them unworthy , and too mean to serve them in so high and sacred a concernment , for any hope that i am able , upon any good ground , to give them of a better issue , they are never like to wear it . finis . these books following are to be sold by henry eversden , at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard . imputatio fidei , or a treatise of justification ; wherein the imputation of faith for righteousness ( mentioned in rom. . , . ) is explained by mr. john goodwin , minister of the gospel : in quarto . triumviri , or the genius , spirit , and deportment of the three men , mr. richard resbury , mr. john pawson , and mr. george kendall , in their late writings against the free grace of god in the redemption of the world , and vouchsafement of means of salvation unto men ; briefly described in their native and true colours , borrowed of themselves in their writings ( respectively . ) together with some brief touches ( in the preface ) upon dr. john owen , mr. thomas lamb ( of the spittle ) mr. jeans , mr. obadiah how , and mr. marchamond needham , in relation to their late writings against the author : in quarto , by mr. john goodwin . the tryers and ejectors tryed and cast by the laws of god and men , by john goodwin . mercy in her exaltation , a sermon preached at the funerall of mr. thomas taylor , by mr. john goodwin : in quarto . anabaptists meribah , or waters of strife ; being an answer to mr. lamb merchant , by mr. price , one of mr john goodwins congregation . the natural mans case stated , or an exact map of the little world , man , in sermons , by mr. christopher love ; to which is added a sermon preached at his funerall , by mr. thomas man●on of newington : in octavo . a comment on ruth ; together with two sermons , one teaching how to live well , the other minding all how to dye well ; by thomas fuller , author of the holy state . gospel publick worship , or the translation , metaphrase , analysis , and exposition of rom. . from vers . . to . describing the ●omp●eat pattern of gospel-worship . also an exposition of the . chapter of matthew ; to which is a●ded , a discovery of adams theefold estate in paradice , viz. mo●●l , legal , and evangelical , by thomas ▪ brewer : in octavo . ●●ds glory in mans happiness , or the freeness of gods grace 〈…〉 us , by francis taylor of canterbury : in octavo . the lords prayer unclasped , being a vindication of it against all schismaticks and hereticks , called enthu●siasts and fratricilli , by harwood , b. d. the grand inquiry who is the righteous man , by william moor minister in whal●y in lancashire . the just mans defence , being the declaration of the judgement of james arminius , concerning election & reprobation . pearls of eloquence , or the school of complements , wherein ladies , and gentlewomen may accommodate their court by practice , by william elder , gent : in . the universall body of physick , in books ; comprehending the several treatises of the nature of diseases , and their causes , of symptoms , of the preservation of health , and of cures . written in latine by that famous and learned doctor , laz. riverius , counsellor and physitian to the present k. of france , and professor in the university of montpelier ▪ exactly translated into english by william car practitioner in physick . an exposition , with practical observations on the first ch. o● the prov. by fra●● taylor , minister of canterbury : in quarto . an exposition , with practical observations , on the whole book of canticles , by jo. robotham , minister of the gospel : in quarto . an idea , or body of church-discipline in the theorick and practick , by mr. roggers : in quarto . the right of dominions , or the prerogative of kings , proved from scripture , by dr. welden . lucas redivivus , or the gospel-physitian , prescribing ( by way of meditation ) divine physick to prevent diseases , not yet entred upon the soul , by john anthony , dr. in physick : in quarto . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- how god justifieth , or what he contributeth towards justification . how the grace of god contributeth towards the justification of a sinner . how the d●cree of go● worketh towords justfication . ●ow , or what 〈◊〉 authori● of god con●ibuteth to●ards justi●ation . how christ ●ustifieth . * it is not unlike but that in some of my former writings , before i made ● m ●e narrow search into the district import of the word , i my self have used it in that ordinary notion ▪ how the active obedience of christ justifieth . how the passive obedience of christ justifieth . how the resurrectio● of christ from the dead justifieth . how the knowledge of christ justifieth . how the spirit of god is , or may be say● to justifie men . how faith justifieth . * see job . ● . . . . isa. . . ● . isa. ▪ jer. ▪ . ezek. . ● , . luk. . . . . tim. . . jam. . , , . how , or in what respect , repentance , is , or may be said , to justifie . k tim. . . how good works are , and may be , said to justifie . how remission of sins justifieth . how the scripture ▪ or word of god justifi● how the minister of the word may be sayd to justifie . a non novum est , verba quae deo summo jure competunt , aut christo , sensu qu●dam subordinato tribui h●minibu● , h●g . grot. m. tim. . how a person may be sayd to justifie himself . concerning the materiall cause of justification . concerning the finall cause of justification . the conclusion . a isa. , . irelands advocate: or, a sermon preached upon novem. , . to promote the contributions by way of lending, for the present reliefe of the protestants party in ireland. in the parrish church of st. stephens coleman street london, by the pastor there. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) irelands advocate: or, a sermon preached upon novem. , . to promote the contributions by way of lending, for the present reliefe of the protestants party in ireland. in the parrish church of st. stephens coleman street london, by the pastor there. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed for william larnar, and are to be sold at his shop, at the signe of the golden anchor, neere paules-chaine, london : . the pastor of the parish church of st. stephens = john goodwin-- cf. wing. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bible. -- n.t. -- john, st, iii, -- sermons -- early works to . ireland -- history -- rebellion of . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no irelands advocate: or, a sermon preached upon novem. , .: to promote the contributions by way of lending, for the present reliefe of goodwin, john c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion irelands advocate : or , a sermon preached vpon novem. , . to promote the contributions by way of lending , for the present reliefe of the protestants party in ireland . in the parish church of st. stephens coleman street london , by the pastor there . judges . . curse yee meroz ( said the angell of the lord ) curse yee bitterly the inhabitants thereof ; because they came not out to the helpe of the lord , to the helpe of the lord against the mighty . but who so hath this worlds goods and seeth his brother hath need , and shutteth up his bowells of compassion from him , how dwelleth the love of god in him ? london , printed for william larnar , and are to be sold at his shop , at the signe of the golden anchor , neere paules-chaine . . irelands advocate : or , a sermon preached upon novem. . . to promote the contributions by way of lending , for the present reliefe of the protestant party in ireland . john . . therefore we ought to lay downe our lives for the brethren . the sad and most deplorable condition of our brethren , professors of the same faith and religion with us , in the kingdome of ireland , as it hath very lately bin represented by letters from thence unto us , is the occasion of turning me aside ( for the present ) from that scripture that i had intended to have proceeded with , and of casting me upon this ; that so , as wee have a great opportunity from hel , we may have another from heaven also , to excite and stirre you up , to quit your selves like the children of god , and the redeemed of jesus christ , by drawing out the bowels of your compassions readily and freely unto those , that are , or ought to be as deare to you , as your selves , and your owne soules . the author of this epistle , was that disciple and apostle whom christ loved , that is , loved in speciall manner above his fellowes : who ( it seemes ) as he received abundantly of the sweet fruites and expressions of this affection in god , and in his lord and master jesus christ towards him , so did he abound proportionably in his reciprocall affection towards god and jesus christ againe : the fire burned in vehemencie and strength of heate according to the pile of wood that was layd upon it . and thus knowing by a double experience , the infinite sweetnesse and preciousnesse of this affection : he labours more then all the rest of the apostles , to propagate and multiplie it in the hearts of the children of god , both towards god , and towards one another . to passe by all other passages in his writings , wherein hee labours to promote the cause and kingdome of this heavenly affection , in and neere about the scripture read unto you , hee makes out with a high hand , and with many important arguments , to kindle this fire in the hearts of men , yea and to make it burne out into a vehement flame . greater love hath no man ( saith our saviour john . . ) then this , that a man should lay down his life for his friend : and lesser love then this ought no man to have ( saith john in effect in this place : ) therefore we ought also to lay down our lives for the brethren . not so much as to mention any other of his arguments , adjoyning neere unto the text both before and after it , whereby hee pleades like an angell of god , for sinceritie and truth and soundnesse of this affection we speake of ; in this verse , being come to an argument or ground that hee saw could beare it , he raiseth his demands in this kinde very high ; and tells them ( in effect ) not onely that it stands them in hand , or that it is their duty simply to love one another , no nor yet to love one another in deed and in truth ; but to love one another to the height , or to the highest pitch and streyne of this affection : we ought also to lay downe our lives for the brethren ; which is nothing else ( being interpreted , ) but ( as was sayd ) to love one another with the ferventest , and largest , and deepest affections that our hearts will hold . true it is , such a demand as this , to lay down our lives for the brethren riseth very high ( as was sayd ) but behold an argument at hand , that will justify it , and reduce it to a point of the greatest reason , equitie and fairenesse that can be . herein ( saith hee in the former part of the verse ) have we perceived or knowne love , that hee , that is , jesus christ layd down his life for us : as if he should say : this was love indeed , this was love in the glory and exaltation of it , that our saviour christ so holy a person , so wonderfull in glory and all manner of excellencie as he was , who had no bond or ingagement either of duty or example upon him , should freely and willingly part with his life for our sakes , to accommodate and pleasure us withall who were his enemies : but now for us , having such a patterne and example before us to conceive by , and such an infinite ingagement upon us , as that love of christ , is , and such an advantage likewise as the benefit redounding to us by that love of christ is to facilitate and make easy any expression of love whatsoever towards those on whose behalfe christ shall require it : it is no great matter in us , it is but matter of equitie and duty in us , to be so farre raised and carried out in our affections of love towards those that are our brethren in christ , and partakers of like precious faith with us , as to lay down , and part with our lives for them . we shall adde no more either for the dependance or meaning of the words . we shall from the passage recommend onely this one generall point of doctrine unto you : that the highest and deepest expressions of love to those that are christs , are but matter of duty from christians when they stand in need of them . for we are to take the apostles expression or inference here , with such a limitation as this : therefore we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren , viz. if they stand in need of them , or if we may accomodate and pleasure them in any proportion or considerable good or benefit thereby , not that we ought actually to doe it at all times ( for then we shall be all bound to die immediatly ) nor yet that we ought to doe it , when we may accommodate them in their necessities otherwise , no nor yet to accommodate them in matters of lighter consequence , though ( haply ) they cannot otherwise be gratified or provided for , however i conceive this to be a case rarely incident , if incident at all , i meane that the common and ordinary affaires or necessities of christians should not possibly be provided for , but by the lives of other of their brethren for them , but in this sense and upon these termes , we are all bound to lay down even our lives themselves for the brethren in the faith , when their necessities are great and sore upon them , and the laying downe of our lives may in likelyhood relieve them , or stand them in some speciall service , and there is no other meāes in appearance likely to do it . therfore i include al these proviso's and cases of exception , in that clause in the doctrine , when they stand in need of them , laying it down thus , the highest and deepest expressions of love to those that are christs , are but matter of duty from their fellow christians , when they stand in need of them . the point lies large and full in the scripture read unto you : so that we shall not need to adde much for the further proofe of it . take we only a scripture or two . so then being affectionately desirous of you , we were willing to have imparted unto you , not the gospell of god only , but also our own soules ( i. our lives ) because you were deare unto us . thes. . . we see the apostle here very glorious and high in expressing the tenor of his affection towards this people : he was willing to have imparted even his own soule unto them , viz. if their condition had required it , if he had conceived that hee might have inriched them with peace or comfort by it . whatsoever the intensnesse or pitch of his affection towards them was , he could not ascend higher then this , in a way of expression to them greater love then this , i. a greater expression or testimony of love then this , hath no man ( saith our saviour , as we heard ) that a man lay down his life for his friend . now then i demand , whether in case paul had actually performed , on their behalfe , what hee here professeth himselfe willing and ready to doe , that is , had indeed imparted his owne soule unto them , whether ( i say ) he had supererogated or no , or gone beyond the line of that which was his duty to doe ? doubtlesse that commandement luk. . . thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thy heart , and with all thy soule , and with all thy strength , and with all thy mind , reacheth the utmost extent and point of the utmost abilitie that is in man : neither is it possible for any man to rise in any expression whatsoever of love either to god or man , above it . so then , if paul in laying down his life for the thessalonians , should have done no more then what god required of him , in case their condition had required it , certainly he requires no lesse of any man , when the necessitie of his saints doe require it . take another scripture from the same pen of somewhat alike importance . who now rejoyce in my sufferings for you , and fill up that which is behinde of the afflictions of christ in my flesh , for his bodies sake , which is the church , col. . . these sufferings of the apostle for these colossians , that is , to accommodate them in the ministery of the gospell , though ( as he saith ) he reioyced in them , yet ( doubtlesse ) they tooke deepe of his outward man , and were grievous to the flesh , and consequently were great and weighty expressions of his love to them : and yet upon the ground lately mention'd , they were no more , then the demand of a good conscience of him . now paul ( and so any other faithfull minister of the gospel ) may be said to fulfill , or fill up , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the remainders or wantings , or afterlings ( as it were ) of the sufferings of christ ( to open this by the way ) for the churches sake , when he desisted not from his worke and imployment of preaching the gospell for any persecution , or outward losse or trouble be susteyned thereby . there are two things ( amongst many others ) of absolute necessity ( according to the counsaile and course of gods ordinary dispensation ) to accomplish the salvation of his elect , of whom his body , that is , his church consists . first , the making of a gospell . secondly , the preaching or making knowne of this gospell . the gospell is no meanes of salvation unto any man , except it be revealed and made known unto him . now the sufferings of christ , were of absolute necessitie to constitute and make the gospell , and they are also of absolute and intire sufficiencie this way : christ wants no sufferings to be added to his , or to come up in the reere to second his , for any such purpose as this , to perfect the gospell intrinsecally in any kinde . but because the making of a gospell , though never so compleate , rich , and absolute , was not enough to effect and actuate the salvation of his church , but the publishing and preaching of this gospell up and down the world , was further necessarie : hence it cometh to passe , that the afflictions and sufferings of paul ( and so of other ministers of the gospell ) are necessarie too , over and above the sufferings of christ , to bring the church into an actuall possession of her glorie . for satan , the god of this world , will be sure to take a course where he hath to doe , and as farre as the length of his arme will extend , that the gospell of iesus christ shall not be effectually , and with power preached in the world without the trouble , and persecution and sufferings of those , that shall put forth their hand to that plough , and breake up the fallow ground of the world with it . so that except iesus christ should make the ministers of the gospell willing to suffer from the hands of the world , aswell as himselfe did , his sufferings , according to the platforme of the counsell of god touching the meanes of the churches salvation , would not accomplish it . this interpretation might be further argued , and strengthened , from that word in the originall , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which our translation renders , i fulfill , or fill up : but this english doth not fil up the greeke , the word hath a more emphaticall signification then so . the word properly signifieth , ex adversa , or ex opposito adimplere , that is , to fill up on the one side , as it were over & against another , who likewise filleth up on the other side , or in another way . this force or importance of the preposition {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is cleerely seene , in that expression or phrase of speech used by our saviour himselfe luk . . where {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifieth to conferre together , or to speake by way of answere or opposition one to another . so that the apostles meaning in this place seemes to be this : that as christ tooke up the one end , the fore-end ( as it were ) of those sufferings whereby the church was to be saved , and caried and bare that ; so he help'd to take up the other end , the hinder end ( as it were ) of the same sufferings ; this end being as necessary to be taken up and borne by the ministers of the gospell ▪ as the other was by the author of the gospel himselfe , but this by the way . for further confirmation of the doctrine , i only touch one scripture more , pet. . and above all things have fervent charitie ( or , love ) among your selves . if it be the duty of christians to have fervent love among themselves , doubtlesse it is their duty also to manifest this love , in the full proportion , and in all the dimensions of it , with expressions sutable to it , and every waie commensurable with it , when opportunity requireth . a candle is not lighted to be put under a bed or a bushell ( as our saviour speaketh ) no more is an excellencie or fervencie of love injoyned the servants of god , to be dissembled , or to be kept prisoner in the hearts or soules of men , but chiefly for this end and purpose , that the heat , light and beauty of it , may be the comfort , riches , strength and glory of the whole society or body . the greeke word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , translated fervent , properly signifieth , that which is extended , or stretched out at large , or at length : and doubtlesse the spirit and soule ( as it were ) of this injunction or exhortation is , that there ought to be such a love vigent in the hearts of all beleevers , that should be able and ready upon all occasions of their brethrens necessities , to doe execution ( if need be ) a great way off , and to stretch out it selfe in the fruites and expressions thereof , beyond the line of the ordinary affections of men ; as a fire that is very hot and hath much wood burning upon it , will warme men at a great distance from it . i forbeare the drawing together any more scriptures , for this service : the minde of them ( i conceive ) this way is better known unto us generally , then to require any anxious or long examination . let us make forward to the grounds , and reasons of the point . reason first , we ought to rise to the highest in our expressions of love to the brethren in christ , when their conditions doe require it , because god requireth this at our hands ( as ye have heard . ) it is one of the impositions of heaven upon us . it is a tribute of thankfullnesse which god hath said upon the great and rich commodity of salvation by jesus christ , to be paid toties quoties , as oft as the necessities of our fellow-beleevers call for it : we ought ( saith the holy-ghost , in the words of the text ) to lay down our lives for the brethren . now the laying down of our lives ( we know ) is an expression of love that goeth very farre , and reacheth very high . so then , if we acknowledge a lawfull authority and soveraignty of heaven over us in other things , and all things meet and fit to be done ; every thing to be just matter of duty that god requireth us : there is no withstanding the truth of the doctrine , which requireth the deepest and weightiest expressions of our love to our brethren in christ , when they stand in need of them . reason secondly , because god doth not only require this at our hands , but he hath himselfe begun unto us , in the highest and deepest expressions of his love unto us ; he hath provoked and ingaged us hereunto , not so much by his own example , as by the choice of his subject , upon whom he was pleased to exemplifie this exceeding love of his , in the highest demonstrations of it , viz. our selves : so god loved the world ( i. the inhabitants of the world , men ) that he gave his only begotten sonne , as john . . if god had shewed the same love unto the lapsed angels , which he hath done unto men ; if he had lifted up the like horne of salvation for them , there had bin the like example ; but there had not bin the like engagement , or provocation unto us , to rise to those heights of shewing love likewise , where he should appoint , as now there is : as the example of love , which he hath now shewn to men , is not any such obligement upon the reprobate angels , to shew love anywhere , as it would have bin , had themselves bin the object of this love of his . reason thirdly , like father , like sonne , jesus christ himselfe hath walked in the steps of his fathers love , and hath gone as high in the declaration and expressions of his love , as the father hath done in his . he hath given himselfe , and offered up himselfe in sacrifice upon the service of the peace and happinesse of a most miserable , wofull , and sinfull world . for we must not look upon the death and sufferings of christ simply as the ransome and attonement of the world ; nor as the gift of the father only unto the world for the ransome of it , for then we shall fall short in our reckonings : but further , as the free and glorious testimony and pledge of the unspeakable , and unconceivable love of christ himselfe unto the world . the holy - ghost is very carefull to vindicate the honour and glory of the love of iesus christ himselfe in his death , and so to recommend and set forth the love of god the father , in giving his sonne unto the world , that he may not drowne , or quench , or prejudice in the least measure the glory of the love of christ himselfe herein . here in perceive we love , ( those words of god , were not in the former translation , neither are they found in the best greek copies ) that he i. e. christ hath layd down his life for us ( in the word immediately before the text ) besides many like expressions , wherby it appeares , that the death and sufferings of christ , were not of constraint or necessity , as the typicall sacrifices of beasts under the law were , who had no inward principle to incline or make them willing to offer themselves : they were faine to be drawn and dragged to the altar ▪ by a strong hand , and to be bound with cords to the horns thereof ; otherwise there was no sacrificatorie death to be had of them : but the sufferings of christ were absolutely and intirely free , and consequently excellent and high expressions of his love unno us . and the truth is , were the frame of our hearts eminently spirituall , and our apprehensions truly noble , and keene in touch and tast of things of highest worth , and excellencie , the death of chritt would be more taking and transporting with us , in respect of the parent that brought it forth , i meane his love to the world , then in respect of al the children that are brought forth by it , i meane all the great benefits , and blessings , and priviledges , that are procured and purchased by it for the world . but generally , we are ( even the best of us ) no better then a generation of spirituall pothunters , all for the prey , but little or nothing for the game . so then , this is another ground or reason of the point : we are bound to rise high in the expressions of our love , when christ shall require it , because we have received like measure from his hand ▪ and where much is given , much may very lawfully and equally be required . reason fourthly , by such excellent expressions of your love to your brethren in the faith , as are required of you , you shall glorifie the name of christ on earth , and convince the judgements and consciences of ignorant and wicked men , that he is what he is , viz. the sonne of god , and sent into the world by him to be the saviour thereof . thus christ prayes unto his father for those that shall beleeve in him , that they may all be one , as the father and he are one ; so that they also may be one in them , & that for this end , that the world may beleeve that thou ( meaning god his father ) hast sent me : and somwhat more plainly ( verse the . ) i in them , and thou in me , that they may be perfect in one , that the world may know ( viz. by this their perfection , or being made perfect in one ) that thou hast sent me , &c. but what is there in this , in beleevers being made perfect in one ? ( as our saviours expression is ) that should produce such an effect in the world , as is here attributed to it , viz. the making them to know , or the giving of them to understand , that god hath senr jesus christ into the world : what proportion is there , betweene such an effect as this , and such a cause as that ? i must not stand to open my selfe at large in this : take a tast of what i would say further in two words . by being made perfect in one , our saviour ( doubtlesse ) meaneth , that entirenesse and dearenesse of affection that should be between them , their being made all one heart ( as it were ) and one soule . love ( we use to say ) is an affection of union : and when it is reciprocally and mutually fervent and strong , and rais'd to an excellent degree , though amongst never so many , it makes a strong consolidation of all into one , so that every one hath ( in effect ) the same strength , and the same wisdome , and so every other perfection , which any other hath , yea or which they all have amongst them : in such a case , one man so perfected in one with others , though never so many , hath as much of every thing that is desirable or good , as they all have together . now then when those that beleeve in jesus christ , are thus made perfect in one , thus intimatly and mightily affecting one another , that entercourse of love , and those glorious expressions of this affection , passing to , and fro , from time to time betweene them , cannot but be taken notice of by the world : and the interpretation of what they see and take notice of in this kinde , can lightly be no other ( when their judgments and consciences are but in any measure themselves ) then this , that that christ , whose disciples and followers these men professe themselves to be , was ( doubtlesse ) the sonne of god , and hath appeared unto them , otherwise such an excellent spirit of love which we see and behold , could not worke in them as nebuchadnezar and his nobles saw a fourth man in the furnace , walking with those three which he had cast in , whose appearance was like the sonne of god : so in those flames of love wherein the saints and servants of jesus christ live and walke together on earth , there is a spirituall visage or appearance of one greater then they , even the appearance of their great lord and master jesus christ himselfe . we should answere that objection here ( but that we have no time . ) but are there not many other factions , or societies of men in the world , that hold fast together , & expresse themselves many times with much affection and cordialnesse one towards another ? therfore how should any expression of love whatsoever betweene those that truly beleeve , be any argument or conviction unto men , that iesus christ is he , that he is the sonne of god , and sent by him into the world ? we must respite the full answere to this objection to some other time : only you may please to take a tast ( in two words ) of what would have bin further enlarged upon this occasion . it is true , there are many factions and parties and combinations of men in the world , that seeme very deere , and deeply ingaged amongst themselves , that are ready to stand up to plead the cause one of another ( perhaps ) even unto blood . but here is the difference betweene the affection of love , which seemes to rule in other societies of men , and that which ruleth amongst true beleevers , when they are perfected in one : the reason , ground , or roote of that affection or deerenesse which reigneth amongst christians , is not any thing visible , any thing savoring of the flesh , nor can their enemies , the men of the world , satisfie their judgements or consciences in conceiving so of it ( though many times they satisfie one another in so speaking ) whereas the band wherewith other societies of men are chain'd and link'd together , is alwaies somewhat that is naturall , and which falls within the reach and comprehension of a naturall understanding . so that the greatest affection that is found amongst naturall men , leadeth the apprehension but to that naturall thing which is the ground and cause of it , and there it stayeth : but that affection which is , or should be found amongst christians , carrieth the minde and thoughts of him that diligently inquireth into the originall and pedegree of it , unto a supernaturall principle , which can be no other but jesus christ , as might be shewed more particularly , but time hasteneth . reason by such deepe and deere expressions of our love to the brethren , we may be a meanes to open the eyes of the ignorant and blinde , and cause them to see and looke upon him , whom they have pierced with their sinnes hitherto , especially with the sinne of their unbeliefe . this reason runs pararell with the former , and depends ( in part ) upon it . strange tongues ( and so other miracles ) are for a signe unto those that beleeve not ( saith paul cor. . . ) viz. for the conviction of their unbeliefe , and ( as it were ) the opening of an effectuall dore unto them , to beleeve . now such expressions of love as we speake of betweene the saints , are of the same kinde of importance and working , that tongues and miracles were . by this ( saith christ john , . ) shall all men know that yee are my disciples ( that is , may know it hereby , that there is an aptnesse in it to convince them hereof ) if yee have love one to another . now that which is a meanes to discover and prove men to be the disciples of iesus christ , is a meanes likewise of great efficiencie and power , to prevaile with men that are yet strangers and enemies to him , to become his disciples also . for such a master , were he known ( and those that know his disciples , cannot lightly be ignorant of him ) would draw disciples apace after him . reason the command lies with the same weight and charge upon others also in ▪ respect of us , and our necessities : indeed if christ had singled out us , out of all the world , or any other parcell of beleevers , and had imposed that by way of duty , which the text or doctrine speakes of , to lay down our lives , or to rise so high in our expression of love unto the rest of the saints , and had not layd the same charge and commandement indifferently upon them , in respect of us , and our necessities , the commandement might have secmed somewhat hard , and the practise of it might have bin stuck at ; but now since he who hath ingaged us to ingage our selves so deeply in the behalfe of others , when they stand in need , hath ingaged them likewise to ingage themselves proportionably for us , when we stand in need ; obedience unto the commandement , cannot but seeme very equall and reasonable , as well on our part in respect of others , as upon others in respect of us . the apostle taketh off the seeming hardnesse or offensivenesse of that demand which he made to the church of corinth , for somewhat a larger contribution then ordinary , the necessities of the saints in other places requiring it for the present , by this very consideration or reason . cor ▪ . . for i meane not ( saith he ) that other men be eased , and you burdened : but by an equalitie : that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want , that their abundance also may be a supply for your want , that there may be equality . reason god hath endued those that are his with power from on high to doe it , he hath furnished them with a new principle , out of which , by a due and conscionable improvement of it in themselves , they are able to afford all that is required of them in this kinde . so that if any man or woman ( i meane that is borne againe , and is a childe of god ) shall finde their hearts low and base and unworthy in this kinde , below the line and levell of that duty now presented unto you , it is because they doe not effectually stirre up the grace of god within them , as the apostle somewhere speakes , they bow downe their backs to the suggestions of the flesh , whereas their strength were it put forth accordingly , would serve them to goe upright . consider that one scripture to this purpose . pet. . . seeing you have purified your soules in obeying the truth through the spirit , unto unfeigned love of the brethren ; see that yee love one another with a pure heart fervently . here two things ( amongst many others ) are plainely implied . first , that no man is able out of any naturall principle to love the brethren , that is , the saints ; the heart must be purified through the word and spirit of god together , that is , that base and drossie affection of inordinate self-love must be purged away , before a man be able to lift up his heart to such a spirituall and heavenly service as this . secondly that a man or woman having obtained such an excellent principle as this , a power of loving the saints unfeignedly through the purifying of their hearts , are bound in a speciall manner to give out themselves fully and freely according to the nature , strength , and importance of this principle , to expresse themselves in excellent termes of love and respects unto them , as their necessities shall require it . this for the and last reason . we addresse immediatly to the vse and application of the doctrine , we shall be very briefe in particulars here . by way of instruction ( in the first place ) we may from the doctrine observe sundry particulars . as first that the minde and good pleasure of jesus christ , concerning his saints and people on earth , is , that you should be a societie or body of men and women in the world , animated and quickened ( as it were ) mooved and acted by a spirit of love , as the life or soule of it , that you should abound in this affection , above all other societies of men whatsoever . doubtlesse he that commands us to lay down our lives one for another , commands us also by a commandement involv'd and wrap'd up in this commandement , to maintaine a spirit of most ardent and burning affection towards one another . a man can never be instructed or taught to die willingly by any other teacher or teaching whatsoever , but by love , yea and that such a love , of such a conquering and commanding power , that it must tread downe the strength of a thousand loves and desires besides , yea and many of these of soveraigne strength and power also . to require a man to lay downe his life for the brethren out of any other ground or principle whatsoever , then out of an affection of love to them , and that transcendently glorious , is ( in effect ) to bid him gather grapes of thornes , or figges of thistles . secondly , this likewise is by way of instruction observable from the doctrine , that men doe but that which is their duty in this kinde , when they are enlarged in the greatest measure , in the expressions of their love towards their brethren : if they should give all their goods , and part with their whole substance to them , yea , if they should lay downe their necks , and jeopardie their lives for their sakes , yet there is nothing to boast of in all this : they are never-the-lesse to remaine vile and little in their own eyes . if their right hand doth never so much in this kinde , yet should not their left hand know any thing at all of it . heights of duty should no waies prejudice or hinder the depths of humilitie . so likewise yee ( saith our saviour to his disciples ) when you shall have done all things that are commanded you , say , we are unprofitable servants : we have done that which was our duty to doe . observe thirdly ( by way of instruction ) what gratious and blessed provision the lord jesus christ hath made , for the poore and weake , and distressed ones in any kinde in his church . hee hath ingaged the rich and strong , and those that are at libertie and that have meanes of reliefe or support in any kinde , in their hand , to be ready at all times to minister unto them . the necessities of any , as farre as they are made knowne , are a summons from heaven to call the rest to looke after them and relieve them . if this royall law were duly observed in the church of christ , one sufferer should create and raise up many relievers ; neither should there be heard the complaint or crie of any man sinking , whilst there remaines any one swimming . it is a signe , that the minde of christ is not fulfilled by his body , if there be one member hungry , whilst another is drunken , if there be want in any place , before there be want in all . fourthly , ( we are yet in the way of instruction ) if the highest and deepest expressions of our love to the saints , be but matter of duty in us , as their necessities may determine it ; then is it not any discharge of a mans duty , nor to be counted obedience unto god , or unto the lord jesus christ , when the necessities of your brethren being great and sore upon them , men shall minister unto them in a sparing , pinching , and contemptible manner : when the condition of the saints requires ( it may be ) the one halfe of our substance , and we cast in two mites into their treasury : when their exigences call us to lay downe our lives for them , and we are willing onely to bestow the parings of our nailes upon them . doubtlesse to minister unto the necessities of the saints upon such termes as these , is no better obedience , nor any whit a more acceptable service unto god , then that of saul was , when being commanded to smite amaleck , and to destroy utterly all that appertained to them , &c. he only destroyed that which was vile and nought worth amongst them , but spared agag the king , and all the best of the sheepe and oxen , and all that was good . sam. . . . as saul was rejected by god , and that with much indignation , and arrested from heaven with a writ of rebellion served upon him by the hand of the prophet samuel , for such an abusing of the commandement of god , which yet to himselfe seem'd a sufficient and plausible obedience : so is it more then to be feared that many men please themselves , and are lifted up in a selfe admiration , for doing that in a way of charitie and reliefe unto the ●aints , which being interpreted by god , is rather a reproach and mockerie to his pleasure and command that way , then any obedience or subjection to it . lastly ( for instruction : ) if the highest , and deepest expressions of love to the saints , be but matter of duty , when their necessities require them : then is not that which any man possesseth in the things of this world , whether estate , liberty , life , &c. so much to be look'd upon , as a mans owne ( to speake properly ) as the churches and houshold's of faith . god we see both in the text and doctrine delivered , who hath an absolute sovereigntie of right and power to dispose both of our persons and of all we have , hath interessed the brethren , that is , the whole communion and brotherhood of the saints , both in our persons , and in our possessions . the necessities of the saints are sealed and confirmed from heaven , as a lawfull right and title to such proportions and shares in our estates , and in any other meanes of help and support that we are able to afford , as are proportionable to them , and of a considerable importance to relieve them . that civill right or proprietie we have in our possessions , is not by christians to be looked upon , or pleaded in barre to that spirituall right which all the saints have in them also . secondly , the doctrine affords matter of reproofe also , and that of foure sorts of men . the first are those that will needs be numbred amongst the righteous , yea are ready to thinke themselves evilly entreated , and hardly dealt with , if they have not their place assigned them at the upper end of the table amongst the houshold of faith , if they be not looked upon as the true servants of jesus christ ( at least ) and yet are as a dry , and barren wildernesse to the saints , and looke upon this family of heaven as strangers unto them , especially when they stand in need of an helping hand from them in any kinde . a little affliction falling upon a servant of god wherein their helpe is required , puts him quite out of their knowledge ; as davids necessitie made nabal that he did not know him . sam. . . who is david ? and who is the sonne of ishai ? if david had bin a great courtier , or the sonne of ishai a favourite of king saul , it is no otherwise like , but nabal could have knowne him well enough . but perceiving that his knowledge of him in such a condition , and streight as he was now in , would be chargeable to him , and cost him some of his bread , and of his flesh , he would by no meanes owne his knowledge of him . such a condition , wherein a man shall stand in neede of the helpe of another is , in the interpretation of a base close-fisted generation amongst us , an evidence against him , that he doth not belong to christ alasse , how farre are these from laying downe their lives for their brethren , and consequently from being christians , who can acknowledge none for christians , but those that have no need of them at all ? when lazarus shall be cast out of abrahams bosom , these shall goe thither in his stead . secondly , there is another sort of professors too , which though they seeme not altogether so bad as the former , yet their prerogative above them were a deere bargaine of the widowes two mites , if it were to be bought with them . these are such , who though they will not be seene to sit out in the necessities of the saints , when others are in , yet they will play but at very small game ( as we say ) to relieve them : they neither consult with the greatnesse , or depth of the saints necessities , nor with the fulnesse or superfluities of their own estates , but with the narrownesse , and seantnesse of their owne base dispositions : this is the only oracle they inquire at , and by which they are regulated in all they doe for the saints , upon any occasion whatsoever . they have a forme of giving ( as the apostle speakes of some that have a forme of knowledge ) which neither mends , nor paires , neither riseth nor falls , nor any waies alters by any difference or occasions , or opportunities whatsoever . if the fit of charitie be upon them , they will give asmuch to a vagrant beggar by the way side , as they will to save the lives of ten thousand saints : and no great matter neither to the one , or towards the other . if men be rich in the things of this world , and not rich in good workes too , they are not like to lay hold of eternall life . tim. . . we know the rich young-man in the gospell , though he was neere unto the kingdome of heven , yet because he would not sell all that he had , and give liberally to the poore , being required to do it , never entred thereinto . for rich men under the law that had great heards of cattell and flocks of sheepe , and goates , to have brought turtles , or young-pigeons for their offering , had been a prophanation of the temple , and despising of god . and so for men of great estates to have cast in mites into the treasury , as the poore widdow did , had rather bin a cōtumelie or affront put upon that service or custom of offering , then any expression of charitie or devotion . cursed be the deceiver ( saith the lord himselfe by his prophet ) which hath in his flock a male , and voweth and sacrificeth unto the lord a corrupt thing . mal. . . and is it not a sin of very neere affinitie with this , and so obnoxious to the same curse , when men that are able to relieve by thousands , and the extremities of the saints call for reliefe by thousands , shall yet minister reliefe but by tens , yea and scarsely by this proportion ? thirdly , another sort worse then both the former are such , who are so farre from managing an affection of love to the saints with those high , and excellent expressions we speake of , even when the greatest need requires , that to keepe their bread and water , and credit too , are still ready to blaspheme the pouertie or hard condition of the saints in any kind , as if they were of a base originall and descent ; as if they alwaies proceeded either from negligence , sloathfulnesse , rashnesse , want of discretion and foresight , or the like . because men have no minde or will in this case to part with their money , nor are yet willing to make any part of satisfaction for that basenesse with their names and reputations ; they have no waies to bring both these ends together , but by insimulations aspersions and sundry imputations to render those unworthy , whose necessitous condition calls upon them for reliefe . thus nabal sought to make a covering for his owne shame in refusing to supplie david in his extremitie , of that wicked insimulation or reproach cast upon david , as that he should be some servant run away from his master . sam. . . there be many servants now adaies that breake away every man from his master : out of these impertinent premisses , this base minded wretch thought he might lawfully and commendably inferre this conclusion : therefore there was neither reason nor conscience why he should part with any thing to david . the like spirit of base insinuations against the saints in distresse is taken in by that other uncleane spirit of covetousnesse which reignes in the hearts of many amongst us , to defend him against the just smitings both of conscience , and of the tongues of men . fourthly ( and lastly for reproofe ) those are yet worse then the former ( if worse may be ) who instead of loving the saints fervently , and with a pure heart , and with all demonstrations and rich expressions of this love as occasion requires , are still snarling and biting , and vexing them , with injuries , reproaches , backbitings , and all manner of evill entreatings . and yet there are of this generation also , that must be honoured before the elders of their people too , with the names , and reputations of good christians . any thing ( it seemes ) will serve for the present to make christians and saints of : hey , and stubble , and wood will serve to beare the name , and outside of christianity , aswell as silver , gold , and precious stones : but when they shall be made to passe through the fire of gods judgement , then that hey , and stubble , and wood we speake of , will make no more christians , but base hypocrites , and accursed unbeleevers only . how farre are these men from that streyne of christianity , which is required of all men in the doctrine , from ministring richly , & with a large heart , and with an open hand to the necessities of the saints , when their daily practise is to give them gall , and vinegar to drinke , & to bring pressures , and to heap sorrowes upon their head ? instead of making their beds for them in their sicknesse , they cast them into beds of sicknesse and sorrow . if the ministers of satan be angells of light , such men as these are good christians : and when god shall bring againe the captivity of belzebub and his angells , and restore them to their first estate in heaven , these shall have part and fellowship in heaven with them . a third and last vse of the doctrine , shall be for exhortation , and that to all those that meane to doe any good , upon the profession and trade of christianity , that desire to raise themselves for ever by it : the duty i shall recommend unto you , is only this , that you would make it matter of conscience ( as well as you doe any other duty in the world , as to abstaine from murder , drunkennesse , adultery , or the like , ) yea that you would make a solemne worke and labour of it , to abound in that sweete and heavenly affection of love towards the saints , and to give full and free testimony and account thereof both unto god and men , as their occasions shall from time to time require . quit your selves in this kinde , ( i beseech you ) as the disciples and followers of him , who when the necessitie of the world ( and of your soules particularly ) required it , and could not be saved without it , freely emptied himselfe of all his greatnesse and glory , and poured out his deerest soule an offering for it ; and was content to take rest and peace and glory in reversion , when as otherwise he might have had them in present possession . in a word , that you will count nothing of all you possesse in this world deere unto your selves , that your love to the saints may reigne and triumph in all the rich and glorious and high expressions thereof , as the condition of any of these shall require . particularly ( to turne in a little to that speciall occasion , which hath drawn out my heart and soule unto you this day , in this subject ) that you will vindicate your selves for christians indeed , and your love to the saints and servants of jesus christ , like it selfe , by your ready and free , and liberall contributions by way of lending ( for your love for the present is not put to any greater triall then this ) to redeeme the lives and liberties and estates of your poore brethren the protestants in ireland ( if god will yet vouchsafe to honour your zeale and forwardnesse in this kinde , with such an honourable vouchsafement as this ) out of the mercilesse hand of those cruell , blood thirstie and implacable enemies both theirs and your's , that butcherly , and bloody faction of rome , who are now gathered together like an army of chafed beares , and fierce lyons against them , in an heate and ecstacie of revenge , and being led on by that prince of darknesse , that great roaring lyon the devill , have their hands lifted up on high , to slay and kill , and to destroy , to commit all manner of insolencies , and barbarons outrages , as they shall be inspired , and taught by that god of this world whom they serve in this spirit of revenge , which now possesseth them . the considerations , and motives that may strengthen your hand to this service that is recommended to you , are both more in number and greater in weight and consequence by farre , then i am able to expresse . give me leave to touch you with some few of them . first , that faction of hell , the romish party , are of a very formidable strength and power amongst them : they were some while since reported to have bin an army of about fighting men , and to be daily increasing , and gathering greater numbers unto them . they have already taken many strong townes and castles , and have made themselves lords and masters of them : and many captaines , and other officers that have bin trained up , and exercised in warres , are said to have come over from beyond the seas unto them , to assist them in their enterprize : in so much that the feare and dread of them is fallen and ready still to fall upon many , that they have and are likely every day more and more to revolt and fall in unto them . so they are not like to be resisted , or withstood but with an high hand . the strength and power of the enemy , which is so formidable to your brethren , and in it selfe also ▪ let it not ( i beseech you ) be contemptible in your eyes , but gaine proportionably upon your hearts and soules to consider them . secondly , the protestant party of your brethren , are but very weake in comparison of their enemies , they are but few in number , in respect of the swarms of those anti-christian hornets that nestle amongst them : and that which is yet of sadder consideration , they are but naked , and unarm'd , and no waies appointed or provided to defend themselves ; having not long since had their armes , and meanes of defence , most cruelly taken from them , by him , who hath made some part of attonement for that and other his outrages , with his head . in which respect they are but as a flock of kids , before an host , or army of lyons . let this consideration also of the weaknesse of your brethren , strengthen the hand of your love and make tender your respects unto them . thirdly , their enemies are of a bloody , barbarous , and revengefull spirit : all mercie , pittie , and compassion , yea humanitie it selfe is hid from their eyes : there is neither age , nor sex , neither young-men , nor maids , neither old-men , nor babes , but all are one before the rage of their cruelty . they have shut up all the bowells of their compassions as it were with barres of yron , that neither cries nor teares , nor misries , nor extremities , nor the law of god , nor the lawes of men , nor the lawes of nature or humanitie it selfe , can doe any thing to open them . i beseech you let the shutting up of the compassions of the enemies of your brethren against them , be the opening of your compassions so much the more freely , so much the more abundantly unto them . fourthly , they are deeply , indeed most desperatly ingaged to goe through with their enterprize , and are under a vow , to make as cleere riddance of protestants and protestant religion out of the kingdome , as their lying legend reports that their saint patrick made of serpents & toades , & al venimous creatures . they have made a covering of their breaden god , wherewith to hide all repentance from their eyes : so that all relentings , all doubtings , all faintings or feeblenesse of spirit , all hanging down of hands from the worke in hand , are no lesse then deadly sins with them ▪ if they looke backe from the plough whereunto they have now put forth their hand , they are afraide they shall fall into hell immediatly . that god and creature of theirs which they make of bread is amongst them of as great authority and power , as the poets made the rivers styx in hell , to be among their heathen god's , when they sware by it : timor et deus ille deorum est . it is the inspiration of their religion and teachers , that it is no lesse then damnable sinne , and to be punished with hell fire , once to doubt or question whether it be meritorious or no , to murder , kings and princes , when the advancement of the catholique cause requireth it . i beseech you let the height of their resolutions , and the depths of their ingagements to doe evill , be both heights and depths of ingagements and resolutions unto you , to doe good , to the countermanding ( if it be possible ) of their evill . fiftly , they have already consecrated themselves unto the devill and his service upon the lives and blood of many of the servants of god , your brethren in the faith , hewing , and hacking some in pieces ( as it were on purpose to quench , and smother all sparkes of humanity that might yet be alive in their brests ) after they had murdered them , and by other most barbarous villanies , and outrages committed upon them ; setting themselves a coppie ( as it were ) for their future proceedings , and giving those that yet remaine to understand , what measure they must expect , and looke for , if they make resistance , and meane to keepe their religion . i beseech you let the lives , and cruell and cursed usages of those that have already perished by their intercede & mediate with the bowells of your compassions on the behalfe of the remnant which is yet left . sixtly , it is the holinesse , purity , and truth of that faith and religion which your selves professe , and wherein you hope to be saved , that hath kindled that fire of hatred and revenge in those romish spirits , which is now broken out , rageing and devouring , as you have heard . these servants of god whose cause we now pleade before you , are for no other cause , nor in any other respect made the miserable objects of the wrath and furie of their enemies , exposed to that fiery storme and tempest of blood that hangs over their heads , but because they are your brethren , and professors of the same precious faith with you : they suffer not as evill doers , but only because they have given the right hand of fellowship unto you in the things of god , and of the lord jesus christ . i hope the power of that religion which you professe , will set you on fire to make up the breaches , which the profession of it hath made , or further shall make upon others . seventhly , consider , that the cause , for the maintenance whereof you are now sollicited , being so cleerely and intirely as it is , the cause of your religion , and you of this citie looked upon as the greatest friends , as the solemnest and most serious professors which it hath not only in this , but in all other kingdomes also under heaven , and withall many of you being of knowne estates and sufficient abilities to doe much for it in that way , which is now expected from you ; if then you shall now discover any backwardnesse in ministring to the necessities of it , if you shall give the least suspition to the world , that your estates are competitors for your hearts with your religion , if your contributions towards the maintenance of it shall either fall low , or come off heavily from you , you shall much quench the glory and esteeme of it in the hearts of men , and represent it unto the world as a religion weake and contemptible and of a doubtfull assureanc , upon the service whereof silver and gold were too great to be sacrificed . the truth is , that the opportunity that is before you , enableth you to set the prize and estimate of your religion , at what rate , or height you please : you have the world at such an advantage to compell them to thinke highly and honourable of that truth which you professe , the losse and neglect whereof would be an inexpiable streyne of unworthinesse in you , and which you can hardly ever redeeme , no though you should sacrifice your selves and your whole estates in the flames of the greatest zeale for it afterwards . nay if you shall sinne against the crowne and dignitie of the religion you professe , by being remisse , and low and cold in the service recommended unto you , all the professors it hath in the world besides , though they should rise up in their might and cloath themselves with double zeale to doe their uttermost for it , will not be able to build up what you will throw down , nor exalt the glory of it according to the measure of your abasements . therefore if your religion be of that inestimable worth and value whereof you have given information unto the world hitherto by your profession of it , seale to these informations of yours this day , and rejoyce in free and liberall contributions over it : cause your silver and gold to doe hommage to it , and to acknowledge the divinity of it . eightly , your zeale and open-handednesse for the reliefe of the distressed , may strike a dampe of feare and teror into the hearts of their enemies , when they shall either by hearing of seeing , come to know it , and so weaken their hand to their work . when they shall perceive what deep and deere interest in your hearts and affections those have , whose confusion and ruine they hope to reape as the recompence and reward of their present rebellions , this may , cut the sinewes , and strength of their expectation this way , and take off the fiery edg of their presuming confidence . the interpretation of what you shall doe in this kinde like your selves , may be of much more consequence to your friends , then the text it selfe . i beseech you give not those bloodthirstie wretches any scope or libertie of hope or thought , but that those whose lives and fortunes they seeke to ruine and trample under foot , are a generation very precious in your eyes , and that your hearts are fully set and bent upon their preservation and deliverance . little ( perhaps ) doe you thinke or imagine , of how rich a concernment such a conceipt as this begotten in the spirits of their enemies , may be for the peace and safety of your friends . ninthly , by casting on sufficient quantities of water to quench the fire that is kindled in that kingdome , you may prevent the kindling of the like , or a worse , in your own . jreland is not unfitly termed , a back doore into england : and of what dismall portendance it must needs be to you and your nation , to have the pope keeper of the keyes of your back dore , i shall not need to represent unto you . if jreland ever be brought under the power of the romish faction , the sun of englands prosperitie will suddainly be darkened in the midst of the heavens thereof : that land and kingdome will receive immediate consecration from the triple crowne , for a sanctuary unto those that shall undertake or attempt the ruine or molestation of this : it will so one be a receptacle for ijm and oijm , i meane for the furies and firebrands of rome , to lodge in . besides , the neighbourhood of such a confederate kingdome as ireland will be , if ever that generation of vipers we speake of , should lord it there , will foment and cherish those seeds of seditions , treasons , conspiracies , and rebellions , which are sowne in the natures and dispositions of that popish gang amongst our selves . if you let ireland goe , the peace and safety of your own land and nation ( it is much to be feared ) will soone follow after it . i beseech you be not backward to do the best you are able for those who are now recommended unto you : that which you shall part with , may be the price of the redemptiō of your own land . tenthly , there is no better foundation can be treasured up for your selves against an evill day , then by a compassionate and tender consideration of those that are in distresse , in the meane season . bowells of compassion towards the afflicted , make the best shelter and covert from a storme and tempest , of any other materiall whatsoever . by the same shield which you shall hold forth to defend others from evill , you shall protect your selves also . the scripture is abundant in the testimonie of this truth . blessed is he that considereth the poore : the lord will deliver him in the time of trouble . the lord will preserve him and keepe him alive ▪ &c. psal. . ver. . . you know not what evill times , what daies of darknesse god may yet please to bring upon your land and nation : take heed i beseech you , least by leaving your brethren naked to that storme and tempest which now threatens them , and in part lyeth sore and heavy upon them , you do not consult nakednesse to your selves , against the day wherein the like storme or tempest shall fall upon you ▪ he shall have iudgment without mercie , that sheweth no mercie . jam. . . take heed , he that hath said i● , will do it accordingly . lastly , to make my motion unto you greater then deniall ( if it may be ) be pleased to consider this one thing further , that if you shall deale unworthily in that worke of christ whereunto you are now called , and shall love the wages of unfaithfullnesse , and resolve to keep your money by you , notwithstanding the importunate and loud cries of your brethrens blood and lives for it , you may justly feare that it will soone alter the property of it ; and that , that which was life and strength unto you hitherto , will from henceforth be but labour and sorrow , in comparison . whatsoever god calleth for at any time at the hands of any man for his glory , if it be denyed unto him ; whether it be a mans credit , friends , liberty , estate , life , or whatsoever , it seldome or never prospers ; nor is it selfe afterwards any more unto him . there may well be an insinuation or breathing of this truth , in that of our saviour , he that will save his life ( and so his credit , estate , liberty , &c. when the gospell and my affaires require it ) shall lose it : meaning ( haply ) that after such a saving it , a mans life will be no more it selfe , no more a life , but rather a death to him , and shall never have the like contentment or sweetnesse in it , which it had before . i beseech you put this consideration also to heart with all the former . whatsoever it be that god now requireth of you for the support of his cause and servants , it is to little purpose , i meane in respect of the flesh it selfe , or any outward accommodation , for you to withhold it , or to deny it unto him : this call of god for it , hath made it good for nothing , but for consecration : it is no more for any civill or naturall use or service unto you , till god hath bin serv'd by it , and shall returne it againe into your bosomes . that bread which god commands to be cast upon the waters , will certainly mold and putrifie , if it be not cast upon them : but if his voyce be obeyed concerning it , so that it be cast upon the waters accordingly , when it shall be found and taken up againe from the waters ( as his promise is it shall be ) it shall be unto the owners , or him that cast it , as the bread of angels : there will be more nourishment and sweetnesse in one morsell of it , then in full tables of other provision . all these things duly weighed , i beseech you consider what you have to doe in the service propounded and recommended to you . it will be of sad consequence unto you to seek out pretences and excuces , why you should not willingly take this yoake upon you : the exigencie of the occasion is such , that no pretences or reasons whatsoever are to be knowne or once regarded against the motion that hath bin made unto you . it seldome or never falls out , but if god hath one request to make to us , the flesh and the world have another to make in opposisition and barre to it ; and that ( for the most part ) very plausible and satisfactory to the conscience of him that desires to decline the worke and service of god ▪ nay rather if pretences and excuses shall offer themselves unto you , hide them from your eyes , and bury them like your dead , out of your sight : tread them downe under your foot as oft as they offer to rise up against you to trouble you in your way . wife and children , and charge , and poverty , and want of moneys , and occasions of disbursments otherwise , with a thousand other such insinuations as these , must with sathan himselfe be commanded to get them behind us : these are not to be admitted into this consultation . ireland must be look'd after , and provided for , as if we had neither wives , nor children , nor charge , nor were poore , nor wanted moneys , nor knew what to doe with our money otherwise . vniform and standing occasions , are but nences , in the presence of great exigencies , and precipitate exigences , and precipitate occasions . and know that you are not your selves , except you be more then your selves , and above your selves in this worke : you do not that which you are able to doe , and consequently not that which is your duty to do , except you do more then you are able to do , upon such an occasion as this . to their power , i beare them record ( saith paul concerning the churches of macedonia ) yea , and beyond their power they were willing of themselves . the meaning is not ( as perhaps the face of the leter seemes to import ) that they were desirous & willing to have done more then they did , in case they had bin better provided : but that out of an abundant willingnesse that was in them to promote such a service as was now proposed to them , they stretch'd themselves in their contributions , beyond what the line of their outward estates would well beare . we know that exigencies and extremities , and ecstacies of feares in other kinds , will intend and raise the naturall strength and abilities of men far above themselves . in a plunge of danger , and by the help & advantage of some great feare , many have bin able to leap ditches , and to take up weights , and to run with that swiftnesse , which by their standing strength & abilities they were never able to do . and doubtlesse such a spiritual exigencie as is now presented to us , if we tooke the impressions of it kindly & fully , would raise the powers of grace also within us above themselves , and enable us to worke miracles , in comparison of our ordinary expressions of our selv's , it would make even our most extreme poverty ( in case our poverty were such ) to abound to the riches of our liberalitie ; as the apostle records concerning the churches of macedonia which we speake of . the lord grant that the efficacie and power of what hath bin said unto you , may be found in your deportments and behaviour in that great worke that is before you . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- doct. joh. . . . , ioh. . ▪ , . dan. . . vse . . instruction . cor. . . vse for reproofe . eze. . . vse for exhortation . cor. . . the pagans debt and dowry, or, a brief discussion of these questions how far and in what sence such persons of mankinde amongst whom the letter of the gospel never came are not withstanding bound to believe on jesus christ (with some other particulars relating hereunto) : returned by way of answer to a discourse in writing lately sent without name (together with a letter subscribed only t.s.) unto mr. john goodwin, the author as yet unknown to him, yer (as appears by the said discourse) a person of worth and learning, and (as he supposeth) a minister of the gospel / by the said john goodvvin. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing g ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the pagans debt and dowry, or, a brief discussion of these questions how far and in what sence such persons of mankinde amongst whom the letter of the gospel never came are not withstanding bound to believe on jesus christ (with some other particulars relating hereunto) : returned by way of answer to a discourse in writing lately sent without name (together with a letter subscribed only t.s.) unto mr. john goodwin, the author as yet unknown to him, yer (as appears by the said discourse) a person of worth and learning, and (as he supposeth) a minister of the gospel / by the said john goodvvin. goodwin, john, ?- . p. printed by j. macock for h. cripps and l. lloyd ..., london : . reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng christianity and other religions. conversion. great commission (bible) a r (wing g ). civilwar no the pagans debt, and dowry. or a brief discussion of these questions, whether, how far, and in what sence, such persons of mankinde amongst goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john pas sampled and proofread - john pas text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the pagans debt , and dowry . or a brief discussion of these questions , whether , how far , and in what sence , such persons of mankinde amongst whom the letter of the gospel never came , are notwithstanding bound to believe on jesus christ ( with some other particulars relating hereunto . ) returned by way of answer to a discourse in writing , lately sent without name ( together with a letter , subscribed only , t. s. ) unto mr john goodwin ; the author as yet being unknown to him , yet ( as appears by the said discourse ) a person of worth , and learning , and ( as he supposeth ) a minister of the gospel . by the said john goodvvin , minister of the gospel . who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways : nevertheless he left not himself without witness , in that he did good , &c. act. , but i say , have they not heard ? yes verily , their sound went into all the earth , and their words unto the ends of the world , rom. . . there is no speech nor language where their voyce is not heard . psal. . . caeterum crux ista [ christi ] & in britannia est , & in india est , & in universo orbe terrarum . hieron. in psal. . london , printed by j. macock , for h. cripps , and l. lloyd , and are to be sold at their shop in popes head alley . . the pagans debt , and dowry . sir , about a moneth since i received some papers from you by mr robinson , bookseller , together with a letter , full of respects , and such acknowledgments , which i should neither satisfie my self , nor ( i suppose ) you , to own , though you were pleased to spread the snare in my way . nevertheless to deal freely with you ( because i finde you a man of a far better spirit , more ingenuous then i have yet met with in any antagonist ) my sence is , that every mans estimate of himself for gifts and parts , ought to be commensurable to the grace of god vouchsafed unto him in these things , lest by an undervaluation of himself , his hand be disabled from such service , which god upon the account of such gifts expecteth from him . but sir , neither my genius , nor time , will suffer me to anti-complement with you : onely i cannot but kindly resent that worthy disposition in you , to put honor where it was wanting , and to help with your respects to fill up the pit , which others have digged in the field of my reputation , to finde the treasure of their own . i am sorry that my time , since the receipt of your papers , hath been from day to day , and from hour to hour , so drunk up by other occasions , that i could not , until now , compass any convenient liberty for a perusal of them . nor indeed have i now obtain'd it without the regret of some other engagements on my hand . concerning the weighty business discoursed in your papers , i greatly desire it at the hand of my god , both yours and mine , that i may be able to give you satisfaction in it , or that himself will please to do it by some other hand . for though i verily beleeve that you have pleaded the cause of that which is not , with as much ingenuity and strength , as any other man whatsoever could have done , yet i conceive withall , that whatsoever you have said to encumber the conclusive validity of that argument , about which you profess your self ( and i confess , not without grounds worthy a learned man ) dissatisfied , may be fairly taken off , and to very reasonable satisfaction , whether god will vouchsafe to do it by me , or no . and sorry i am for your sake , that i should ( at present ) be so deeply and indispensably engaged in more publique employments , that i am in no capacity of leasure to follow you {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in your writing with those particularities of satisfaction , which every passage therein respectively requireth . the truth is , that ( according to my principles concerning god ) i am rather {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , then {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , more intent ( of the two ) to promote the concernments of the good of the generality of men , then the accomodations of my particular friends ; though as far as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} will extend , i am desirous also to observe the just laws of friendship as inviolably as any other man : and though i very much honor you ( how ever unknown ) for those signal parts of christian worth and ingenuity , which by the light of your papers sent unto me i sufficiently discern in you ; yet should i scarce have been entreated to have made you any so large return in writing as this , had i not conceived , that what i should draw up for the satisfaction of your desire herein ( though probably not of your scruple ) might by the publishing of it turn to some account of a more publique benefit and edification . the consideration of the subject matter of your papers , will fall directly & of course in my way , if god should judg it meet to spare me life and health and liberty otherwise , for the composure of the second part of my book of redemption , wherof i give some overture towards the latter end of the book already published : my purpose is there to discuss the contents of your papers more particularly . in the mean time you shall perform the part of a friend to me ( and it will be no point of unkindnes , or ill consequence to your self ) to consider , that the stress of my judgement , standing as it doth about the extent of redemption by christ , doth not lie , or lean , upon the demonstrative clearness or evidence of truth in that argument , about which you are scrupled , nor indeed so much upon any other of the grounds or reasons insisted on in my book for the defence thereof , no nor yet upon them all ; as upon the express pregnancy of the scriptures themselves from place to place , which ( to my understanding ) cānot by any congruous or rational interpretation be drawn another way ; as also upon the scantness and defectiveness of proof universally found in those passages and texts , which are with greatest plausibleness alledged and argued ( proof-wise ) for the contrary opinion . so that though all my arguments should fall to the ground and sink , yet if the scriptures argued by me in favor of that my judgment , will stand in those respective sences , wherein i interpret them , and ( as i judg ) without any violation or breach ( in the least ) of the best , and best-known laws of interpretation , yea and with the observation of them all , the doctrine maintained by me will stand impregnable , and like the good word of god it self , irreprovable . i do not speak this , as if i were either conscious , or jealous , of any weakness , or non-concludency , in any of my arguments proposed and discussed in the . chapter of my book of redemption : but to let you know , where , or in what , the first-born of my strength and confidence of truth , in what i hold concerning redemption , resideth : and what weapons of all others they are , which you must take from me , before i can surrender . but sir , very briefly , and according to the short tedder of my time , to touch some of the more material heads of your discourse , though ( haply ) not in the same order , unto which i might be directed by your papers , but onely as they come to remembrance , some days after my perusal thereof , as not having leasure for a second review . . by your judgment , which stands for a possibility of repentance ( i presume you mean that which is true , and accompanying salvation , because otherwise you should not counter-argue me in my notion ) without faith , i perceive you are a man of the same conscientious confederacy with me in leaving the road , when you judg the truth lies beside it : notwithstanding at this turn i conceive you leave it without cause . for if there may be a repentance found and saving without faith , either it must be a work or fruit of the law ( whether natural , or positive , it varieth not the case we now speak of ) or else of some third covenant made by god with men in order to their salvation , really distinct both from the covenant of works in the law , and from the covenant of grace in the gospel . for you cannot affirm it to be a work , or fruit , of the gospel , because you hold , . that it is required of those , to whom the gospel is never vouchsafed : and , . that there is no law or commandment given unto such persons , which are in no capacity of yeelding obedience to it : ( which latter principle will do you worthy service at many turns , if you will work it accordingly . ) that the repentance you speak of , is any fruit or work of any third covenant , is not ( i presume ) in your thoughts : however , i am not able to comprehend what this third covenant should be . that it cannot be any work of the law , or of the covenant of works , is evident from hence ; because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ; whereas this repentance is judged by you to be both justifying and saving . besides , it is the common and known opinion of learned divines ( and doubtless of good accord with the truth ) that the law knoweth no repentance . for the tenor of the law is more district and inexorable : cursed is every man that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them , galat. . . by the way , your notion that adam , during the interìm between his fall , and the evangelical promise of the womans seed made unto him , was obliged to repentance , is but a mistake . such an interìm supposed , adam was therein no more obliged to repentance , then the devil is since his fall . the premisses considered , when i argued the command of god to beleeve , from his command unto men to repent , acts . . you had no commendable cause of that false demand ; sed quid hoc ad iphicli boves ? but i consider how hard a thing it is for a man not to be a little warm in a contest ; and i could for iphiclus his oxen , return balaams ass in exchange : but i shall not go forward with the bargain . certainly when god commands men to repent , he doth in the very substance and import of this duty , command them also to beleeve ; in as much as that repentance , which he at any time commands , is evangelical , and of a saving tendency ; and so can be no work of the law , unless it be the law of life , ( i mean , the gospel . ) from the said premisses it further appeareth , that the gentiles , to whom the letter , or written letter , of the gospel never came , and amongst whom the name of christ ( haply ) was never named , may yet in sufficient propriety of speech , and with largeness enough of truth ( though not in that critical formality of the signification of the words {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and praedicare , which you urge from grammarians and civilians ; a curiosity of dialect which the holy ghost commonly neglecteth , yea and grammarians and civilians themselves a ) may be said to have , and to have had , the gospel preached unto them . the gospel is said to have been preached unto the ancient jews , heb. . , . yet christ by name was not preached unto them , nor known amongst them . and as the rock , out of which moses , or god by moses , gave them water to drink , is said to have been , christ , viz. spiritually , in type , or representation : in like manner , yea and with much more pregnancy and neerness of signification , and revelation , the patience , and goodness , and bountifulness of god dayly vouchsafed unto the heathen , may be termed , christ . and upon this account the apostle clearly implieth , that the goodness of god leadeth men to repentance , ( rom. . . ) and consequently ( the premisses evincing it ) unto faith in christ , whether known , or not known , by them . for god being by the light of nature , known , or at least {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , knowable , to be infinitely just , infinitely bent in hatred and severity against sin ; when notwithstanding he shall express himself in goodness , and patience , and bountifulness towards those , who know themselves to be sinners , hereby he sufficiently testifieth and declareth unto them , that his justice and severity against sin have been ( and this must in reason needs be supposed to have been , by a way or means proportionable to so great and glorious an effect ) satisfied , and that he hath so far accepted an attonement for them , that in case they shall truly repent of their former sins , and persevere repentant unto the end , they shall escape the punishment due unto their sins , and consequently be saved . and what is this , being interpreted , but to have {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the effect or substance of the gospel preached unto them ? the scriptures in several places ( which i have not leasure at present to examine or discuss ) plainly insinuate a capacity in the heathen , yea in all men by the light of nature ( i mean , where this light is given , and shineth ) by such a regular and rational process of discourse , as that mentioned , to attain or make out this evangelical conclusion , that some mediation , some attonement or other , hath been made , and accepted by god , for the sins of men . but i demand ( saith the apostle paul , ) have they not heard ? yes verily ( saith he ) their sound went forth into all the earth , and their words unto the ends of the world . he had said in the verse immediately foregoing , that faith comes by hearing : in this verse , he shews ( in an answer which he gives to a demand or question put by him ) what hearing it is , by which faith comes ; or at least what hearing is sufficient to beleeve upon , or to produce faith . this hearing , he saith , is the hearing of that sound , and of those words , which the heavens , and the day , and the night speak , and that are gone forth into the ends of the world , ( as appears by the place , in psal. . from whence these words are cited . ) if you ask me , but what is the sound , or what are the words which the heavens , and the day , and the night , i. e. the constant course of the providence of god , in the government of the world , speak in the ears of all nations , and of all people , that faith should come by the hearing of them ? i answer : they are the words of eternal life too , as well as those , which ( as peter acknowledgeth ) our saviour himself had to speak ; yea and did speak upon all occasions ; onely they are not so plainly spoken , as he was wont to speak : their parable is somewhat more dark , and harder to be understood . but the sence and import of what the heavens moving still in their natural course , and the gracious providence of god , joyntly speak in the ears of all flesh , is , that god is taken off from the fierceness of his displeasure against sin , and that he holds forth his white flag , and offers terms and conditions of peace unto the world ; and that upon their coming into him by repentance , they shall be received into grace and favor . and what is this but the very tenor , sum , and substance of the gospel ? which yet is more plain from that of the same apostle , acts . to the men of lystra . who ( saith he , speaking of god ) in times past suffered all the gentiles to walk in their own ways . nevertheless he left not himself without witness , in that he did good , and gave us rain from heaven , and fruitful seasons , filling our hearts with food and gladness . in respect of what was it , that god left not himself without witness amongst the gentiles , even then when he suffered them to walk in their own ways ? ( viz. without admonishing and directing them how to walk , and what to do , after any such manner as now he doth by the letter of the gospel sent amongst them : ) what did the witnesses the apostle here speaks of , witness concerning god , or , on his behalf ? doubtless he doth not speak here of his godhead , nor of his power , nor of his wisdom , as if his meaning were , that god left not himself without witness of these ( though it be true , that he did not leave himself without witness , i. e. means of convincing men , of these also , ) but the works of creation , as distinguished from the works of providence ( whereof he here speaks ) are sufficient witnesses of these , according to the tenor of rom. . . and besides there are natural impressions of these in the spirits and consciences of men , which are witnesses on gods behalf thus far . but doubtless , that in god , or concerning god , which ( as the apostle here saith ) god intended should be testified or witnessed on his behalf unto men , was somewhat , more secret , more out of the way ( as it were ) of mens , common thoughts or apprehensions ; and particularly it was that gracious and good affection which he bears unto the world through jesus christ , his inclination unto peace with men , upon their repentance ( which is the substance of the gospel . ) this appears , . by the nature or quality of the witnesses here spoken of , which were , gods giving men rain from heaven , and fruitful seasons , his filling their hearts with food and gladness . such witnesses as these , are onely proper to testifie grace , and love , and desire of the good of those , to whom they are given , in him that giveth them . they plainly shew , that he that bestows them , is not extream , useth not extremity against those that do amiss ; and consequently that he is by one means or other , taken off from the rigor of his justice , and severity of his wrath against sinners . and , . it appears from hence ; because paul , who was not onely a diligent and faithful preacher of the gospel where ever he became , but was in special manner designed to be an apostle to the gentiles , preached no other doctrine but this at lystra ( a city of the gentiles ) upon that great opportunity that was now offered him . we cannot think that he should onely preach a philosophical or metaphysical sermon , concerning the essence or natural properties of god onely ; but that which was evangelical , and favoring of the gospel . now the holy ghost recording either the whole , or ( at least ) the sum and substance of what he preached in this place , reporteth nothing evangelical as spoken by him , except this be acknowledged for such . so that clear it is from the scriptures , that all the world , even those that are most straitened and scanted in this kinde , those that have not the letter of the gospel , have yet sufficient means of beleeving granted unto them ; of beleeving i mean , . that god is , . that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him : which is all the faith or belief that the apostle makes simply and absolutely necessary to bring a man unto god , i. e. into grace or favor with him , heb. . there are several other scriptures that speak home to this point , besides those argued ; particularly , that rom. . . or despisest thou the riches of his goodness , and forbearance , and long-suffering , not knowing that the goodness of god leadeth thee to repentance ? the long-suffering and goodness of god are said to lead men to repentance , because they testifie , according to a rational and clear interpretation , a willingness and readiness in god , to receive all such into grace and favor with himself , who shall unfeignedly repent of their sins . there is no other consideration , but this ( at least , none without this ) in respect whereof , the patience or bountifulness of god , can be said to lead , i. to perswade or invite , to repentance . there is no motive or perswasive , whereof sinners are capable , unto repentance , without hope of pardon upon repentance . in the mean season , you see it clear from the scriptures ( and the scriptures , as ye have seen , run parallel with evident and clear reason all along in this point ) that even heathen men , and those that want the history of the gospel , have yet a sufficiency of means whereby to beleeve , and so to prevent the wrath and indignation which is to come : in which regard , they are altogether unexcusable , if they do it not . consonant unto these things argued from the scriptures , are the judgments of our best protestant divines , at least when overshadowed with the spirit of truth . for-though ( saith calvin ) there will be found nothing in the world worthy the favor of god , yet he sheweth himself propitious unto the whole world in that he calls all men without exception to beleeve in christ , which is nothing else but an entrance into life . a so likewise wolfgangus musculus , after the same manner it is in this redemption of mankinde , of which we speak : that reprobates and desperately wicked men partake not of it , is not through any defect of the grace of god : nor is it meet , that , for the sons of perdition sake , it should lose the glory and title of an universal redemption , since it is prepared [ or , procured ] for all , and all are called to it b our english divines themselves in the synod of dort , express themselves to the same purpose thus : so then christ dyed for all men , that all and every one , by the mediation of faith , may through the vertue of this ransom , obtain remission of sins , and eternal life . so that the express sence of these men is , that even the heathen themselves , omnes & singuti , to whom the gospel was never preached ( in your sence , i mean ) by men , and in the letter of it , are yet called by god to it , yea and may so beleeve , that by the mediation of their faith , through the ransom payd for them , they may obtain salvation . but suppose we ( for argument sake ) that the heathen , to whom the gospel was never orally preached , were not in an immediate capacity of beleeving it ( upon those terms of beleeving lately signified , ) yet this proves not but that they might be in a remote capacity of beleeving it ; such a capacity i mean , which by a regular and conscientious exercise and acting of those worthy abilities , which god had conferred upon them , might , by the ordinary blessing , and according to the standing course of the gracious providence of god in such cases , have risen up and grown to an immediate capacity in this kinde . so that ( for example ) an heathen man , who never heard of the name of christ , may notwithstanding , by means of the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. the effect of the law written in his heart , quit himself to such a degree of well-pleasing unto god , that god will not fail to reveal or make known his son christ unto him , after some such manner and degree , which shall be saving unto him . this is the express doctrine of learned m. bucer . here ( saith he , writing upon rom. . ) let us observe two things : that god in no age whatsoever left men destitute of the doctrine of salvation . therefore who ever at any time perished perished through their own default [ or neglect . ] for god so bedeweth [ or besprinkleth ] nature with his light , that they onely remain strangers unto righteousness , who willingly and of their own accord cast it from them . there are at this day nations not a few , to whom the gospel of christ is not sincerely preached : others there are , who hear nothing of it . but if these did not voluntarily put from themselves the desire of righteousness , the lord ( questionless ) would so antmate [ or enliven them ] with his spirit , that they should [ or , might ] perform the things of the law , commit themselves wholy to his [ grace , or ] goodness , and do unto their neighbors what they would that they should do unto them . hence it would come to pass that god would sooner send an angel unto them , as he did unto cornelius , then suffer them to remain ignorant of his christ . but whilest through impious ingratitude , they detain his truth revealed unto them in unrighteousness , they do not onely deserve to have no more of the good spirit of god given unto them , but even to be given up to a reprobate sence , &c. the other thing to be taken notice of , is , that we our selves also harken unto the work , or effect of the law , which is written in our hearts , that same right and divinely impressed sence of things within us , whereby we are continually called upon for holy and honest courses , and called back from those that are dishonest , &c. afterwards , upon vers . . of the same chapter , he hath these words : but ( as we formerly also shewed ) this was rather that which paul intended , viz. to offer to the consideration of the jews , that the gentiles , even before christ was revealed unto them , were partakers of true righteousness a . the clear result of this discourse is , that the heathen , who never had the gospel , or christ , de facto preached in the letter , or by men , unto them , were yet in a sufficient capacity of doing such things , upon the account whereof god would have revealed them unto them by one means or other , and this upon such terms , which should have been available to salvation . i might add much from calvin and other protestant writers of best account , of like import , who very frequently and familiarly in their writings promise with greatest confidence , the super-vening of the saving grace of god , unto the regular industry and diligence of men , in the improvement of the light they have received . yea , the substance of this doctrine is ever and anon preached by those , who are by some counted pillars of the ministry amongst us at this day : who notwithstanding again destroy that faith , which they build up in such a doctrine , by denying the universality of redemption by christ . mr edmond calamy ( in a sermon preached by him jan. . . on chron. . . ) amongst many other passages pointing the same way , taught his people and hearers thus : a wicked man may do that , which is right in the sight of the lord , by the light of nature , and by the help of common grace . and although god be not bouna to reward him for it , yet i doubt not but god , out of the abyss of his mercies , if he make use of common grace ; i do not doubt ( i say ) but god out of his abundant mercy , though he be not bound unto it , yet will give him spiritual [ or , special ] grace : if he make use of common nature well , god will finde some way or other to do good to that mans soul . luk. . . if therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon , who shall commit to your trust the true riches ? this place seems to hold out thus much ; that if a man improves the outward mercies of god , or the work of common grace , god will entrust that man with better riches ; god will finde out a way to do that man good . afterwards ( in the same sermon ) thus : thou oughtest to do according to the gift and power , which god hath given thee in a natural way : and that god , which hath given thee power to do it in a natural way , will ( no doubt ) assist thee with power to do things in a spiritual way . for that man which improves his natural talent , god will one time or other entrust him with a spiritual talent . for there was never any man went to hell for , cannot , but for , will not . if you shall please further to peruse my answer to mr jenkin , entituled , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , pag. , , , &c. you shall finde the concurrent judgment of some others of no mean esteem for learning , piety , and whatsoever is called orthodox amongst us . and the truth is , that in such a doctrine as this , they cleave to the scriptures themselves , and are one spirit with them . for when our saviour , towards the cloze of the parable of the talents , teacheth thus : for unto every one that hath , shall be given , and he shall have abundance ; but from him that hath not , shall be taken away , even that which he hath ; he clearly avoucheth this for truth , that whatsoever a mans original stock , in gifts or endowments in one kind or other , from gods hand shall be , be it never so weak , small , or inconsiderable , yet by a careful employment , it shall , through the grace and blessing of god hereupon , improve to a spiritual estate , which is therefore compared to an abundance , because the possessor hereof is enriched above measure by it . for that our saviour by , him that hath , and to whom he promiseth , that more shall be given , doth not mean a person already converted , regenerate , or endued with true faith , saving grace , or the like , so neither , by him that hath not , him that wanteth saving grace , is evident ; . because by the servants who received the talents , as in a glass , is represented the state and condition , not of beleevers onely , or those that shall be saved , but of the generality of mankinde , or ( at least ) as well of such who will perish , as of those who shall be saved . this is evident from that which the parable relateth concerning the unprofitable servant , who went and hid his talent in the earth ; for which his lord commands him to be cast into outer darkness , where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth . now the words under debate were uttered by our saviour , upon occasion of this severe award ( as it may seem ) which the lord passed against this unprofitable servant ; take therefore the talent from him , and give it unto him that hath ten talents . of the equity of this order , he gives an account in the said words : for unto every one that hath , shall &c. plainly implying , that by him that hath , he meaneth , him that hath upon improvement , or ( which comes to the same ) him that sheweth and declareth that he hath [ somewhat given him ] by his employment and improvement of it : for otherwise , he that had his talent taken from him because of his hiding , or non-employment , of it , had , as well as the other , by original gift . and if by , him that hath , he should mean , him that hath , simply , or , in any consideration , then he that had received the one talent , notwithstanding his hiding it , should have had given unto him , and so had more abundantly , as well as the other . again , . there is no ground , nor ( i suppose ) colour of reason , or ground , to conceive , but that all the talents ( mentioned in the parable ) the five , the two , the one , were all of one and the same nature , or kinde ; and that none of them signified any supernatural , or necessarily-saving grace , but onely natural gifts , or endowments , such as men unregenerate were capable of , as well as regenerate . nor do either calvin himself , musculus , or any other of our protestant expositors , give the least intimation of their sence to the contrary , in their commentaries upon the said parable ; though musculus be more assertive and express in the point , then any of the rest that i have seen . amongst the ancient , ambrose , by these talents , understands the gifts or endowments of natural reason b ; which differs not at all in any thing material from the sence of our late orthodox interpreters . if then by the talents be signified endowments or gifts of nature , and such as the generality of men receive from god in some measure and degree , or other , evident it is from the clause under consideration , unto him that hath shall be given , &c. that by a faithful and careful use of those natural abilities , that light of reason , conscience and understanding , which every person of mankinde under heaven receiveth from god , he may and shall receive from him yet further , that which shall be of a saving import and consequence unto him . for that , by that which is ( in the parable ) promised to be given , and that in abundance , to him that hath , must of necessity be meant somewhat that is of a spiritual and saving nature , is evident from the carriage of the same parable ; where the servants , who had received the talents , and employed them faithfully ( by whom are typified our saviours , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , those that have , as was lately said ) are graciously invited by their master into his joy : enter thou into thy masters joy : so to the other ; enter thou into thy masters joy . now if either god , or christ , be signified and meant by the master of these servants ( as i suppose no man questions , but that either the one , or the other , are typified hereby ) by , entering into their joy , cannot be meant a receiving of a greater measure of natural gifts or endowments , nor of receiving any reward which belongs to persons qualified onely with such endowments as these , but , salvation , or eternal blessedness and glory . if so , it roundly follows , that by what christ promiseth shall be given to him that hath ( in the sence declared ) is meant somewhat of a saving consequence , as regenerating grace , the sanctifying spirit of god , faith , and the like . and promising , not onely , or simply , that to him that hath , shall be given , but further , that he shall have abundantly , he clearly signifieth , that in case men will provoke , stir up , and lay out themselves accordingly in the improvement of such abilities and gifts , which shall from time to time be vouchsafed unto them , they may , by vertue of the bounty and gracious decree of god in that behalf , attain and receive from god what proportion or measure of the spirit of grace , and of god , they can desire . what hath been argued , and ( i suppose ) demonstratively proved from the parable of the talents , and more especially from this promise or engagement of our saviour , to him that hath , shall be given , viz. that upon a regular and reasonable improvement of those principles or abilities ( which we more commonly , then properly , call , natural ) vouchsafed by god unto men , they shall certainly receive from him that which is spiritual and saving , might be further evidenced and confirmed from many other scriptures ; as from mat. . . mark . . luk. . . ( where the same promise , almost in the same words , upon a like occasion , is made , and taught for sound doctrine , by our saviour ; ) so likewise from mat. . , . mark . . luk. . . & . . joh. . , . eph. . . rom. . , , , &c. hebr. . , &c. ( besides twenty more . ) in all which places there is a perfect eye of the notion contended for , visible enough to him that shall narrowly look upon them , and enquire into them . and indeed the opinion or doctrine it self , which we now plead , is so rational , so intimously comporting with , and suitable to , the genius and main design of the gospel , which is to advance godliness , and all excellent and worthy ways and works amongst men , that there is nothing can be alledged against the truth of it , but what upon due consideration will be found manifestly prejudicial and obstructive to the practice of godliness , and of things worthy and honorable amongst men . from these discussions then it clearly follows , that the heathen , who onely have , or have had , the benefit and help of the light of nature , together with those impressions of good and evil which accompany it , are , and have been , by means hereof , in such a capacity of having the gospel , if not preached , yet ( which is altogether as much , or rather more ) revealed unto them , and consequently of beleeving it , that were they , had they been , true and faithful to the dear interest of their own peace and happiness , they may , and might beleeve it , if so , the want of the letter , or oral preaching of it unto them , doth not excuse them from sin in their non-beleeving it ; unless we shall say , that the committing of one sin , excuseth from the guilt of another , or that the neglect of one duty , dischargeth from the obligation of another . . ( and lastly ) suppose and grant we yet further ( for argument sake ) that the heathen actually wanting the letter and external ministry of the gospel by men , were in no capacity at all of coming to the knowledg of it , either by the works of creation and providence , nor yet by any improvement of their natural abilities ( possible unto them ; ) yet it must needs be acknowledged that they were in a capacity of being made partakers even of the letter and oral administration hereof , in such a sence , as all nations are in a capacity of having and enjoying such merchandize or commodities , which are exportable from any one nation under heaven , and may be had by recourse and equitable applications made to this nation for them . when god erected and set up , first his tabernacle , and afterwards his temple , amongst the jews , together with that entire systeme or body of his ceremonial worship , wherein , though under types and figures , he discovered his gracious counsel and intentions by jesus christ towards the world , and ( indeed ) preached the gospel , though his intent and purpose herein was to priviledg and accommodate this nation above any other people and nation under heaven , yet was it no part of his minde , that these discoveries of himself , or the great blessing accruing thereby unto men , should be so confined or appropriated unto this people , but that all the world , and all the nations round about them , far and neer , yea and every particular person , born or dwelling in any of these nations , might , if they pleased , have had part and fellowship with them in all this grace and blessedness , as many actually had , who became proselytes to the religion and worship of this nation . yea all the priviledg or prerogative which this nation had above others , in , or about the word , and worship of god , the apostle paul resolveth into this , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , rom. . . that they were entrusted with , made feoffees ( as it were ) in trust of that great treasure , the oracles of god , not for themselves , nor their posterities onely , but for the world , or generality of mankinde ; even as the same apostle , speaking of himself , and of the gospel , saith ( in the same word , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , gal. . . ) that he was entrusted with it for the gentiles , or gentile part of the world , as peter was for the circumcision , i. e. the jews . this apostle , as in consideration that the said ceremonial worship , or mosaical gospel , was committed , or deposited in trust with the jews , he calls it , theirs , ( rom. . . ) so because they were entrusted with it on the behalf of the world , elsewhere calls it , in respect of the several members , parts , and veins of it , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the rudiments , or elements , of the world , ( gal. . . colos. . , . ) meaning , those mosaical ceremonies and observations , which god delivered unto jews by moses , for the nurture and training up of the world ( during the infancy and pupillage of it ) in the knowledg of god , and the things of their eternal peace . in like manner , in that spirit of prophecy , which god poured out so abundantly upon this nation , in those prophets which he raised up and sent unto them from time to time , to instruct , admonish , reprove , declare unto them things to come , &c. he had respect , as well to the nations of the world , as to the jews themselves , as appears by sundry particular prophecies , which much more neerly concerned other states and nations , as babylon , egypt , tyre , edom , moab , &c. then the jews . athanasius ( among the fathers ) very excellently and fully to this point discourseth in his treatise concerning the incanation of the word of god : where , having affirmed that the grace of that image stamped upon men according to the likeness of god , is , and was , sufficient to afford unto men the knowledg of the word of god ; and yet , that , in case men should neglect to know him , by looking into themselves , he had provided this remedy for such their weakness , viz. that by the works of nature they might understand him to be the workman , &c. he advanceth his discourse in words to this effect . but when as the negligence of men by degrees grew worse and worse , god yet again provided for this weakness also , sending unto them laws and prophets familiar with them [ or , which might be well known to them , ] that in case it were troublesom unto them to look up towards heaven , they might receive instruction from their neighbors , [ or , neer at hand . ] for one man may learn of another that which is excellent , neerer hand . so then they might by lifting up their eyes to the vast magnitude of the heavens , and considering the sweet harmony of nature [ or , the creation ] come to know the word of the father to be the captain [ or guider ] hereof , and that by his providence over all things , he discovers and makes known the father unto all men , and that he therefore gives motion unto all things , that all men by him may know god . or if this were grievous to them , they might converse with saints [ or , holy men , ] and from these learn to know god the maker of all things to be the father of christ , and that the worshiping of idols is impiety , and full of all ungodliness . they might also by the knowledg of the law abstain from all transgression , and live righteously [ or , vertuously . ] for the law was not [ brought into the world ] for the jews onely , nor were the prophets sent onely for them [ or , their sakes . ] they were sent indeed unto the jews , and of the jews were persecuted : but they were the sacred and publique school of the whole world , to instruct men as well in the knowledg of things appertaining unto god , as in matters relating to the discipline and government of the soul c . consonant to the import of this discourse , is that of calvin also , transcribed by me , pag. , . of my redemption redeemed : toward the cloze whereof he speaketh words to this purpose : although indeed there was no necessity to seek him [ god ] very far , by reason that each one might finde him in his own self , being that we are all kept and preserved by his vertue dwelling in us . in the mean time , to manifest more imply his goodness and infinite clemency amongst men [ or , towards men ] he hath not contented himself to instruct them by all such documents , as those we have exprest , but hath specially given to understand his voyce to a certain people , &c. [ meaning , that from , and by means of , these , the rest of the world might have opportunity to receive the knowledg of those things , which were revealed unto them , not for their own sakes onely , but for the accommodation and benefit also of all others . ] if you please to peruse the commentaries of our best protestant writers upon those passages of christ , joh. . , , . sent you to reap that , whereon you bestowed no labor : other men labored , &c. you will find many things directly pointing towards the notion in hand . calvin himself acknowledgeth that some understand these passages as well of the gentiles , as the jews ; and confesseth , that in all ages there were some grains [ or , seeds ] of piety [ or , true religion ] scattered over the whole world d . gualter writing upon the said verses , plainly affirmeth , that the fathers and the prophets , by their diligent husbandry about the lords field , sew the seeds of true piety all the world over e . again , a little after he saith , that god used the labor and ministry of the patriarchs and prophets in tilling or culturing the world , and preparing it for the evangelical harvest f . afterwards he sheweth at large , into what countries , first the partiarchs travelled , spreading abroad where they came , the sweet savor of the true knowledg of god ; and then , how the prophets following them , by the spreading of their sermons and prophecies into divers nations far and neer , advanced the same service : which also he further saith was much promoted by means of the captivities and banishments of the jews , in assyria , babylon , and over all the east . having hereunto added the consideration of the translation of the scriptures ( then extant ) or of the old testament , into the greek tongue , procured by ptolomy philadelphus king of egypt after the babylonian captivity , which ( as he truly saith ) was of very great consequence for the propagation of the knowledg of the true god through the world , he concludes that these particulars did much facilitate and help forward the work and labors of the apostles in the conversion of the world . hugo grotius likewise upon the same place to the same purpose : the field was broke up , and brought into tilth , by the prophets , who not onely in judea , but in many other countries and nations amongst the gentiles , both by word and writing awakened men to the worship of the one god , which is the seed of an evangelical harvest , or enerease g . thus then you see that it is not my sence alone , but the judgment likewise of many wiser and more learned men , that god in setting up that great light of the knowledg of himself in the land of judea , which some conceive to be the center or middle part of the habitable world , and amongst the jews , as upon a candlestick , did intend the benefit and blessing of the shining of it throughout the great house of the whole world . and as many did partake of this benefit and blessing , who inhabited countries far remote from the jews , joyning themselves unto the people of the god of abraham , so had all others the opportunity of doing likewise . and though remoteness of country , or dwelling , from judea , might haply be some extenuation or mitigation of the sin of mens remaining ignorant of god , his true worship , and service , and of those spiritual mysteries , which were to be learned in judea ; yet was it no adequate or sufficient excuse thereof . these things duly weighed and considered , the particulars objected by you against that proposition of mine , about which ( it seems ) you are at present dissatisfied , appear reconcilable enough to it , and fairly answerable . for , . whereas you argue , that all men have not a legal tye or obligation upon them to beleeve on jesus christ , and upon this account cannot stand bound to beleeve on him ; i answer , by denying your antecedent , and affirm , that all men [ i. e. all men not wholy disabled , either through want of years , or defect of natural capacity , to beleeve ; though there be a sence , which the schoolmen term , sensus divisus , wherein even such persons as these are under a tye of beleeving , ] but all others ( i affirm ) are simply and directly under an obligation of beleeving on jesus christ . whereas you further argue ; if so , then are they under this obligation , either by the law of nature , or else by some positive law of god ; and affirm , that by neither ; and hence conclude , not at all : i answer ; the obligation you speak of lieth upon them , by the force and authority of both these laws . first , the law of nature requireth all men , teacheth all men , . to seek and enquire after god , i. e. the knowledge of his nature , attributes , excellency and perfection of being . . after the richest and best discoveries of his will and pleasure concerning men , which are anywhere to he found . . ( and lastly ) this law requireth likewise of all men , to submit unto every part of the will and pleasure of god concerning them , being any ways made known to them . otherwise we must hold , either that this law teacheth not men , to regard , minde , look , or listen after any manifestation or dicovery , which god makes of himself in any part of the world , but onely neer to them , and ( as the saying is ) under their noses , or within their own thresholds ; or else that it teacheth them to rest satisfied with such . discoveries in this kinde , which are imperfect , and unsatisfactory : or lastly , that it doth not teach them to submit to the will of god in all things , as far as it shall be discovered unto them . none of all which can be affirmed with truth , or likelyhood of truth . first then , if the law of nature requireth of all men ( except the before excepted ) to enquire after the best and fullest discovery , which god anywhere maketh of himself , his will and pleasure concerning men ; and , . if the gospel be the fullest and richest discovery in this kinde , which he hath made , or which is to be found ( which i presume is no christian mans question : ) and lastly , if it be the express revealed will of god in this gospel-discovery of himself , that all men who hear of it , or come to the knowledg of it , should beleeve in his son jesus christ ; it roundly follows , that by the law of nature , all men of years and competent understanding , stand obliged to beleeve in christ , either in sensu composito , as viz. if they have , or have had , the letter of the gospel , or live , or have lived , under the found of the ministry of it ; or else in sensu divisa , viz. in case the gospel hath never yet in the letter or ministry of it been revealed unto them . nor is that which you alledg concerning the inability of the light of nature to discover , that there was , or ever would be , such a man and mediator as jesus christ , much considerable to your purpose , though it should be granted in as ample terms , as you propound it . for what though the light of nature be not sufficient to make such a discovery , yet is it sufficient to teach men that it is their duty to enquire and harken out what discoveries god maketh of himself in the world : and when they have heard of , or found out , the discovery you speak of ( i mean of such a man and mediator as jesus christ ) it is able to inform and teach them that it is their duty to beleeve in him accordingly . the light of nature ( probably ) is not sufficient to inform every member or subject in a state or commonwealth what laws or statutes the parliamentary or legistative authority of their state , will enact , or impose upon the respective members hereof . nor can it reasonably or equitably be expected from the persons invested with the legislative power , that they should cause all the laws which they enact from time to time for the due government of their state , to be proclaimed by an officer of state at every particular mans door , no nor yet in every particular village or town , to oblige the inhabitants to a subjection unto them . it is sufficient for such an end and purpose as this , if they be proclaimed , published , or promulgated in the metropolis or head city of this state , where , or from whence all and every the respective inhabitants and subjects hereof , may and ought to receive information of them , what they be . and they that live most remote from the said metropolis , or place , where the publication of the said laws is made , are notwithstanding as well obliged to the observation and keeping of them , as the inhabitants of this city it self , though these , by reason of their dwelling , have a readier and better opportunity to come to the knowledg of them . in like manner god being the absolute monarch of , and lawgiver unto , the world , it is sufficient for him , and as much as can reasonably be expected from him , onely that he should take care and provide , that that great law of life and death , the gospel , should be published , and promulgated in some eminent place , or places of the world , from whence all other parts of the world round about might have an opportunity to receive the knowledg of it . nor are any of the respective subjects of this great kingdom of the world , priviledged or exempted from yeelding obedience and subjection to their king in that great law of his gospel , because of any remoteness of their dwellings from those places , where he hath made any solemn publication of it , or because he hath not sent a publique : officer of heaven , an authorized minister of this gospel home to their houses , to proclaim or publish it within their doors . so that ( by the way ) the meaning of those demands of the apostle , on which you insist , how shall they beleeve on him , of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ? and how shall they preach , except they be sent ? the meaning ( i say ) of these interrogatories , or any of them , is not , either as if no man could possibly beleeve the gospel , but he that had personally heard it preached by a minister , or that men could never come to hear it , but onely from the mouth of such a minister ; or that none could publish it upon such terms , as to cause it to be beleeved by men , but some such minister onely ; all such suppositions as these are palpably irrelative to the minde of the apostle in those demands . his meaning in them is onely to imply , . that the world , having generally so corrupted themselves with all manner of wickedness , and voluntarily estranged their hearts and minds from god , were in no likely posture or condition to be brought to beleeve on him by means of christ , or on christ himself , without the opportunity and advantage of some declaration or report of the gospel made in one kinde or other unto them . . that they were not like to hear of god , or of jesus christ , in the gospel , had there not been some , one , or more , to have preached , or published it in the world . . ( and lastly ) that there was no likelyhood , that any such man , or number of men , would ever have been found or heard of , who should , or would , have preached or published the gospel , or name of jesus christ , up and down the world , had they not been sent , i. e. had they not received both instructions from god concerning the truth , tenor , and substance of the gospel , and how they were to proceed in the preaching of it , as also a special charge and injunction from him to preach it accordingly . none of these particulars give the least intimation , as if no man were either in a capacity , or under an obligation , to beleeve the gospel , but onely they to whose habitations some minister of the gospel was , or should be , sent to preach it . it is sufficiently known , and generally granted by divines , that there were , and are , several nations and countries in the world , unto which none of the apostles ever came to preach the gospel : yet the apostle paul informeth us , and that with an emphatical asseveration , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , translated , verily , that their sound went forth into all the earth , and their words unto the end of the world , rom. . . how can this assertion of his stand , but in the strength of this rational supposition , that their preaching and publishing the gospel in such parts and places of the world , where they came and had opportunity to do it , was vertually and constructively a preaching and publishing of it throughout the whole world ; and that those nations , unto which the apostles did not preach it personally , had yet a gracious opportunity to come to the knowledg of it , by means of their preaching and spreading of it so far , and in such countries , as they did ? and unless such a supposition as this be admitted , we must fall hard and heavy in our censures upon the apostles , and conceive of them as men unfaithful and defective in the execution of that high commission , and most weighty charge , imposed on them by the lord christ , concerning the preaching of the gospel ; the tenor whereof ( as we know ) was , that they should go , and teach all nations , baptizing them , &c. mat. . . and again ( as another evangelist draweth it up ) that they should go into all the world , and preach the gospel to every creature . no interpretation of what the apostles did , in , or about the discharge of this their commission ( the equity of this commission salved ) can render them obedient and faithful therein unto their great lord and master , but onely that which supposeth every creature to have been sufficiently evangelized or taught by them , in the teachings of that party of the creature , or of those particular creatures , which were actually and personally taught by them : and that all the world was put into a sufficient capacity of beleeving , or ( which is the same ) into a way of having the gospel even in the letter of it made known unto them , by their enlightening those parts of the world with the knowledg of it , in which they preached it . nor can that of the apostle claim the honor of truth , where , speaking of the gospel , he saith , it was {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( the word so emphatically urged by you ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i. e. preached unto every creature which is under heaven , ( col. . . ) but upon the account and warrant of such a construction . but , . neither will my principles allow me to gratifie you with my belief of this your saying ( unless very rigidly understood , and in such a sence wherein it will little accommodate your cause ) that the light of nature , neither can , nor ever could , discover to mankinde , that there was , or ever would be , such a man , and mediator as jesus christ , &c. what the light of nature hath de facto discovered unto mankinde , may much better be known and judged of , then what it can , or could , discover . i confess my apprehensions concerning the extent of the power and abilities of the light of nature carefully preserved , prudently managed , and industriously improved and imployed , run very high : and i judg that the greatest part of what this light hath hitherto discovered unto mankinde , is not commensurable to the least part of what it is , and hath been , able to discover . but what if it be granted , that it neither is , nor hath been able to discover , that there was , or ever would be , such a man and mediator , as jesus christ , viz. in all particularities relating to his person , wherein the gospel presenteth him to the world , yet may it be able so far to discover him , that a man by the discovery may be rationally perswaded , through , or by means of him , to depend upon god , for the pardon of his sins , and salvation of his person , yea and this to the real obtaining of both at the hand of god . i have no ground at all to beleeve or think , that such jews , who before , and under , yea and long after moses , did beleeve in god unto salvation , had jesus christ discovered unto them in any such vision of particularities , as that exhibited in the gospel . the sum and substance of what they ( at least the far greater part of them ) apprehended , knew , or beleeved concerning christ , amounted not ( i suppose ) to much more then this ; viz. that god had found out , and pleased himself in , a way or means , how to shew mercy and to forgive the sins , and save the souls , of such who should put their trust in him , and live righteously and holily in this present world . for that god did not declare , [ i. e. make plainly and fully known in the world ] upon what account of righteousness or justice , he pardoned sin committed in the world before the great attonement made by the death of christ , until this attonement was actually made , is evident by this passage of the apostle , rom. . , , . being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in jesus christ ; whom god hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of god ; [ meaning , that god through his great patience , or strength of forbearance , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , remitted sin , even long before any satisfaction or attonement made for it ; ] to declare , i say ; at this time [ viz. when christ suffered in the flesh ] his righteousness , that he might be just , and a justifier of him that is of the faith of jesus , i. e. that he might appear to be , and to have been , just , in justifying him [ i. e. every one , or whosoever ] {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that was , is , or shall be a beleever in christ . from this last clause , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is of the faith of jesus , i. e. that beleeves , or depends , on christ for righteousness ( relating in special manner to the beleeving jews before the coming of christ in the flesh , ) it is observable , that they are reputed by god ( and consequently , ought to be so reputed by men also ) beleevers in christ , not onely who know him by name , or in the hypostatical union of the two natures , or the like , and beleeve on him under such a notion as this ( for thus the beleeving jews , who were justified by god before the coming of christ , neither knew him , nor beleeved on him , as was formerly said , ) but also they that beleeve on god by , or through him ( as peter expresseth it , pet. . . ) i. e. who either by grace purchased or procured by him , or by any providence , or dispensation , one or more , issued by god for his sake , or upon his account , in the world , are brought , or prevailed with , to depend on god for the forgiveness of their sins upon their repentance . and that the jews i speak of , when they did beleeve on god unto justification , did not explicitely , or by name , beleeve in jesus christ , seems to me very apparant from those words of christ to his apostles , joh. . . ye beleeve in god : beleeve also in me . if they had beleeved in him as explicitely , and distinctly , as they did beleeve in god , there had been no more ground , why he should exhort or encourage them to beleeve in him , then in god : nor why he should have owned them in their belief in god , more then in their belief in himself . and that that their belief in god , which our savior here acknowledgeth in them , was unto justification , i suppose that you neither will , nor reasonably can , deny . now then if such a faith , which had jesus christ onely vertually and interpretatively in it , and none but god himself explicitely , and directly , was notwithstanding available to the justification of the jews , who had better opportunities of means for an explicite knowledg of him , then the gentiles ; much more reasonable is it to conceive that the like faith will be accepted in the gentiles to their justification ; especially considering , . that same divine attribute , which the scripture calls , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a non-acceptation of persons ( so frequently asserted and inculcated by the holy ghost in the scriptures : ) and , . that the justification of men , is a judiciary act awarded , according to the tenor of a known law , by god . besides , that jesus christ is in such a faith , by which men are actually enabled to come with acceptation unto god , i presume you will not deny , considering what christ himself saith , no man cometh unto the father , but by me , joh. . . that by such a faith , whereby a man beleeves , . that god is : . that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him , he is enabled thus to come unto god , is the express doctrine of the apostle , hebr. . . and that the heathen , who never had the advantage of the letter of the gospel , were notwithstanding , partly by the light of nature , partly by the works of creation , partly by the patient and gracious administrations of god in the course of his providence towards the world , in a very sufficient capacity of attaining such a faith as this , if i judged it matter of question , either to your self , or any other considering man , might be largely demonstrated , not onely from the scriptures , but even by many pregnant testimonies extant in the writings of the heathen themselves . not to impose any great tax upon you , though for your own satisfaction , in this kinde , if you will please to peruse onely the fifth and nineteenth chapters of the l. du pless is de veritate religionis christianae , you will find by several passages drawn together by this learned author from the writings of such heathens as we now speak of , . that the light of nature was sufficient to discover unto them somewhat concerning christ : and , . ( and more clearly ) that they did ( i mean , many of them , and consequently , that more , yea , that all , might ) beleeve , both that god was , and that he is a rewarder of those , who diligently seek him . and i presume you know that much more of this latter import might readily be cited from the books and writings of several others of them , not mentioned by the late named author . again , . that the heathen we speak of ( and consequently , all men without exception ) had , and at this day have , a tye upon them by the law of nature to beleeve in jesus christ , is evident upon this consideration ; viz. because this law obligeth all men to do that , which is essentially conducing to their soveraign welfare and peace , and without which it is unpossible for them to escape ruine , and destruction . and if men stand bound by the law we speak of , to use such means for the preservation of their natural lives and beings , without which they cannot reasonably expect or judg that they should be preserved ; much more must they needs be obliged by the same law to provide things needful for their eternal safety and well-being , and without which they cannot , upon any reasonable account , expect or look for these so importantly-necessary accommodations . now the scripture saith expresly ; neither is there salvation in any other , [ meaning , but in jesus christ , ] for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we [ men ] must be saved , ( acts . . ) and this by beleeving on this name , joh. . . these latter words , there is no other name under heaven given , &c. clearly overthrow two of the main pillars of your discourse , which are these ; . that this law of salvation , whosoever beleeveth , shall be saved , respecteth onely such , unto whom the letter , or vocal ministry of the gospel is sent , and that there is another law , covenant , or promise , by which others shall , or may , be saved , ( which by the way , i look upon as a very adventurous position , and of dangerous consequence . ) . that such a repentance , which neither includeth , nor supposeth faith in christ , in one kinde or other , and whereof persons unevangelized ( in the sence oft mentioned ) are capable , is available to these persons unto justification and salvation . for if there be none other name [ but that of jesus christ ] under heaven given among men , whereby &c. i. e. no other method , course , way , or means whatsoever vouchsafed by god unto men for their salvation , it demonstratively follows , . that this law of salvation , whosoever beleeveth on jesus christ , shall be saved , with that of condemnation ( opposite to it ) he that beleeveth not , shall be damned , doth not respect onely persons gospelized ( in the sence declared , ) so that these onely shall be either saved , or condemned , according to the different tenor and import of them ; but the generality or universality of mankinde , where ever the faculties of reason , judgment , conscience , understanding , &c. are found in any competent growth or maturity . . that no repentance whatsoever , which hath not the name , i. e. the vertue , grace , merit , influence ( in one kinde or other ) of christ in it , will avail any man unto salvation . nor is that of the apostle , rom. . . any ways contradicting that which hath been now said : for as many as have sinned without law , shall also perish without law : and as many as have sinned in the law , shall be judged by the law . for the intent and purport of this passage onely is to shew , that god in the judgment and condemnation of wicked men , will have respect to the different degrees of means and opportunities , which have been vouchsafed unto them respectively , for the restraining of them from the ways of sin and wickedness ; and to imply withall , that because the letter and oral ministry of the scriptures , or word of god ( frequently termed , the law ) superadded to the law and light of nature , and those other advantages ( common unto all men ) of the works of creation , providence , &c. are a means of greater efficacy and a more potent tendency to restrain from sin , then those other alone , and without these , therefore they , who shall be found to have lived wickedly and ungodlily under these , shall receive a greater damnation , then those who have lived sinfully under the want of them . if it be yet further objected ( against the argument in hand ) that the law of nature cannot oblige men to things unpossible , no not in order to their own preservation , or peace ; and therefore cannot oblige those to beleeve in jesus christ , to whom he was never preached , this being unpossible unto such persons , as these : to this i answer , . that the sinews of this reasoning have been already cut , where we proved , that jesus christ , is so , so far , and upon such terms , preached , or made known unto all men without exception , that no man lieth under an impossibility of beleeving in him ; i mean , of beleeving in him upon such terms , which will be available to his salvation , ( as hath been formerly declared . ) but , . i answer yet further , that if the positive , or written , law , or word , of god , bindeth men unto that which is unpossible , what reason can there be given , why the law of nature may not do the like ? ( especially considering that this is the law of god , as well as that . ) but that the positive or written law of god requireth things unpossible of men , is ( i suppose ) your own sence and judgment ; certain i am , it is the general sence of those , who are enemies to the doctrine of universal attonement . . ( and lastly ) were it granted that the law of nature doth not binde to things impossible , in sensu diviso , yet it may very equitably and well binde to things unpossible , in sensu composito . as for example ; suppose i have a childe , or wife , lying sick in an upper chamber , or room in my house , and at present i am below ; the law of nature in this case bindeth me to visit them , which yet is unpossible for me to do , whilest i remain below , and in my present posture of absence from them . but because i may very possibly go and get up to them by the opportunity of such stairs or steps , which are purposely provided to make the way into this chamber passable for men , therefore the tye which is upon me by the law of nature , to visit them , is no ways hard , or unreasonable . in like manner , were it granted , that men who never heard of the name of christ , are , in their present condition , posture , and frame , under an impossibility of beleeving on him , and so not bound by the law of nature to beleeve on him , during this incapacity ; yet this no ways proveth , but that they may stand bound by this law to beleeve on him , yea and that this beleeving is possible enough to them , in sensu diviso , ( as hath been said ) though not in sensu composito , that is , by using such means , and applying themselves to such a course , whereof they are , actually , and de presenti , capable , and which have a proper and direct tendency to enable them to beleeve actually in due time . sed de his , priùs . nor do i beleeve that any person whatsoever of mankinde ( such only excepted , who have sinned the sin unto death , as john expresseth it , who , in and by the said sin , cast in their lot with devils , and deserve no longer to be numbered amongst men ) liveth under any simple , absolute , or invincible impossibility of being saved . yea if it shall be supposed , that any other person lieth under such an impossibility , it must needs take off from the hearts and consciences of men much of that fear and dread , which are of a very soveraign consequence and import to preserve them from the horrid guilt of that sin . and thus ( i trust ) i have given a fair and satisfactory account unto you of the truth of this doctrine , that all men stand bound by the law of nature to beleeve on jesus christ ; or at least ( in your own phrase ) somewhat that seems to me very like to such an account . again , . that the like obligation is imposed by god upon all men ( in the sence explained , and avouched ) by a written , or positive law , is ( i suppose ) of a like ready and easie demonstration . when the holy ghost by the mouth of the kingly prophet admonisheth and calls upon the kings and judges of the earth , thus : kiss the son , lest he be angry , and ye perish from the way , when his wrath is kindled , &c. ( psal. . . ) . by the son , evident it is ( and interpreters generally consent ) that the lord christ is meant . . that by kissing this son , is meant such subjection to him , which includeth , or presupposeth faith ( at least ) in him , is so evident likewise , that i know no expositor otherwise minded . and besides , this clause , lest he be angry , and ye perish , &c. plainly evinceth it ; in as much as no kissing him , or subjection to him , without beleeving on him , will prevent his anger . . ( and lastly ) that by the kings and judges of the earth , he doth not ( in the first place ) mean some of these onely , as ( for example ) those who have the gospel preached unto them , with an exclusion of the rest ; nor , . that by kings and judges of the earth , he means the meer persons of men invested with these dignities , but ( by a synecdoche , and according to the frequent dialect of the scriptures ) those entire bodies and communities of men , of which kings and judges are the heads , are things , both so rational in themselves , and so demonstrable also from the first verse of the psalm , and indeed from the whole carriage of it , that to give any further proof of them , were but to light up a candle to the sun . or if it shall be importunely , and as it were by the teeth , held and maintained , that none but the persons themselves of kings and judges are here meant ; yet will it even from hence , and this with a notoriety of consequence , follow , that all their subjects , and consequently , all the world , stand bound , by vertue , as well of the same command , as of the same caveat , or threatening , to exhibit the same subjection unto the son of god . musculus may be consulted upon the place h . again , when the apostle john asserteth this to be the commandment of god , that we should beleeve on the name of his son jesus christ , ( joh. . . ) he cannot be conceived to speak onely of saints , or such who are beleevers already , as if these onely were the men , whom god commands to beleeve in the name of his son : for then it would follow , that every beleever in the first act of beleeving super-erogates , and doth more then god requires of him by any law , precept , or commandment of his . nor , . can he reasonably be conceived to speak of such onely , who have the letter or oral ministry of the gospel sent , or granted , unto them : because then ( in like process of consequence ) it will follow , that in case any of those , to whom the said priviledges are not vouchsafed , shall beleeve in christ , he also shall super-erogate , and do more in a way of righteousness , then god commandeth him . therefore when this apostle saith , it is the commandment of god , that we should beleeve , &c. his meaning is not , either , . that we saints , with the exclusion of all others ; nor , . that we who have the gospel preached by men to us , with the exclusion of all others : but , . ( and lastly ) that we men , with the inclusion of all other men whatsoever , should beleeve . if it be objected and said ; that such men , who have neither the letter , nor oral ministry of the gospel , are in no capacity , no possibility of beleeving : and therefore to argue , that in case they should beleeve , they should super-erogate , is to argue , not onely from an unsound , but even from an unpossible supposition ; and no better , then if a man should argue , thus ; if a stone , or a brute beast , should with an audible , or intelligible voyce , magnifie god , they should super-erogate , because there is no commandment imposed upon them by god to do such a thing : to this i answer , . that it hath been already sufficiently proved , that the supposition which this objection faulteth , is neither impossible , no nor yet unsound ; but that such persons , who neither have the letter of the gospel , nor yet the preaching of it by men , are notwithstanding in a capacity of beleeving . i add , . that if there be an impossibility that such persons should beleeve , then their beleeving supposeth , or includeth , some other thing which is unpossible also . for this is a true rule , and of unquestionable evidence : possibile est , quo posito , nihil sequitur impossible : that is possible , upon the supposal whereof no impossibility followeth . now in case it should be supposed that a man without the letter , or oral ministry of the gospel , should , or might , beleeve , it cannot reasonably be imagined what impossibility would follow ( i mean , in argument , or supposal ) hereupon . therefore there is no impossibility that such a person as we speak of , should beleeve . . ( and lastly ) in case men destitute at present of the letter , and ministry of the gospel by men , should not stand bound by some law , or commandment of god , to beleeve , then , in case either the said letter , or ministry shall at any time hereafter be vouchsafed unto them , they must either be supposed to remain still as much disobliged from beleeving , as before ( which , i presume , is none of your thoughts , ) or else , that there is some new commandment imposed upon them by god , which was not imposed on them before . now with god ( the scripture plainly affirmeth ) there is no variableness , neither shadow of turning , [ or , change , jam. . . ] nor doth he create , or make new laws to subject men unto upon emergent or accidental occasions : but all his laws were made , given unto , and imposed upon , men , before any new emergency , or change of circumstance , or condition , befalleth them . so that ( for example ) he that hath formerly been very poor , but hath of late a great and plentiful estate cast upon him by god , doth not now stand charged to distribute , to do good , to be rich in good works , &c. by any new commandment of god imposed on him since his advancement in the world , which did not oblige him before , but by vertue of such a command , whereunto he was subject all the time of his poverty , as well as since his being made rich , although he stood not bound by it to act according to the tenor of it , but onely then , or at such a time , when and in case he should become rich ; and now also not continually , but upon due and regular occasions onely . this commandment of god , thou shalt worship the lord thy god , obligeth a man as well sleeping , as waking , as well in the midst of his lawful employment , as at times of liberty and convenience for his actual worshiping of him : otherwise god must be said to take off this law from men , as oft as they go to sleep , or to the labor of their ordinary callings ; and again to lay it on them anew , as oft as they awake , or cease from their labor ; or rather as oft ( and as oft onely ) as they have opportunity actually to worship him . yet doth it not oblige any man to worship him at such a time , when , or whilest he is sleeping ( supposing his sleep in respect of the time or season of it lawful ) nor yet whilest he is at the work of his calling , supposing that herein he doth but that which is his duty to do . i make no question but you have often met with that common maxim of divines : praecepta affirmativa semper obligant , sed non ad semper : affirmative precepts always binde , but not unto always , i. e. not to a perpetual or uninterrupted practice of that duty , whereunto they binde . a rich man stands always bound to distribute to the poor , but not to distribute always , but onely upon all christian occasions and opportunities . so a minister stands always bound to preach to his people : but he doth not stand bound to preach always or continually to them . in like manner suppose it were granted , that an heathen , who never heard of the gospel , nor of the name of christ , nor ever had opportunity to hear of either , doth not stand bound to beleeve ( formally , or explicitely ) in christ , whilest he remains under these disadvantages for such a beleeving ; yet this proveth not , but that even such a person , stands simply and absolutely bound to beleeve in him , and this upon the terms specified : or in case the gospel shall at any time afterwards be sent unto him by god , that he now stands bound to beleeve by a commandment newly given or imposed upon him by god , and not by vertue of that commandment , wherewith he stood charged before . nor is that text acts . . cited by me to prove an universal obligation positively imposed by god upon all men to beleeve on christ , disabled by any attempt made by you in that behalf ; the words being these : and the times of this ignorance god winked at : but now commandeth all men every where to repent , &c. for , . we have demonstratively ( i suppose ) proved already , that the repentance here mentioned , and commanded by god unto all men every where , includeth , or presupposeth , faith in christ , and that no repentance whatsoever , is , or can be , actually saving , but onely such , which is influenced or raised by faith in christ , of one kinde or other , either formal and explicite , or else consequential , implicite and interpretative . . it hath been in like manner proved , that these universals , all men , every where , cannot reasonably , nor with that reverence and honor which are due to scripture-expressions , be here confined to such , either persons , or places , to whom , or where , the gospel had been then actually sent , and preached , when the words were uttered by the apostle , or should afterwards be thus sent and preached ; but are to be extended to all men simply , and to every nation under heaven ; in as much as there is no necessity for such a cautionary , or restrictive interpretation . whereas you further argue from the antithesis here made by the apostle , between the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the times of ignorance , and the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the present times ( when the apostle spake the words ) or times of the gospel-light , that how ever god in these latter , commands all men every where to repent , yet under those other he did not ; i answer , . that the conclusion which you hence infer , fights directly ( if i mistake not ) against your own sence ( otherwhere asserted in your papers ) both concerning an obligation lying upon adam to repent , in the interim between his fall , and the promulgation of the gospel to him ; as likewise concerning the like obligation lying upon all his posterity ( without exception , unless onely of such , who either through defect of years , or of understanding , or through inexpiableness of guilt , are uncapable of repentance ) whether the letter or ministry of the gospel hath been vouchsafed unto them , or no . for by what law persons , who never heard of the gospel , stand now , or whilest the gospel shines in other parts of the world , bound to repent , by the same they stood bound to repent-likewise , before the coming of the gospel into the world . therefore you cannot with the safety of your own principles , but confess , that all men every where , even {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , under those times of ignorance of which the apostle speaks , and before {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or the times of the gospel , stood bound to repent , so , or with such a kinde of repentance , which you affirm to be meant in the scripture in hand , i. e. such a repentance which is conform to the law of nature , and which includes not faith in christ ; and which you acknowledg also the unevangelized heathen stand now bound unto . . neither doth the antithesis or opposition between the two differing times mentioned import any such different dispensation of god , under the one , and the other , as if he had left men free from all and all manner of command and obligation to repent , under the former , and onely charged them with this duty under the latter ; but onely sheweth , or supposeth , that that obligation to repent , which lay upon men under the former , the times of ignorance , was but weak , faint , obscure , and with little authority upon the consciences of men , in comparison of that tye , obligation , or engagement hereunto , which god by an express command imposeth upon the world under the latter ( the times of the gospel . ) this to be the genuine and true import of the said antithesis , appears , . by the frequent and familiar usage of the scripture in like cases : . by consideration of the state and condition of the heathen throughout the world in the point in question , before the times of the gospel . first , it is a thing of frequent observation amongst expositors and divines , that the holy ghost intending to mention and assert any considerable encrease or advance of some former dispensation , is wont to express it in simple , positive , and absolute terms , and as if it were a new kinde of dispensation , and which had not formerly been known , or heard of in the world i . thus the promises made to abraham , gen. . concerning the multiplication of his seed , and their inheriting the land of canaan , are afterwards , as viz. cap. . , , , &c. again mentioned and expressed as if they had now been new , or first made , onely because they are expressed more largely , fully , and emphatically . when christ spake thus to his disciples after his resurrection , these are the words which i spake unto you , whilest i was yet with you , ( luk. . . ) in this latter clause , whilest i was yet with you , he insinuates his present being with them , by way of antithesis to his former being with them ( viz. before his death ) not as if he were not now present with them , as well as he had been formerly , but because his being now with them , was of a more transcendent and peculiar nature and consideration , then his former presence had been ; in as much as he was now in the estate of the resurrection , whereas in his former being with them , he was but in the ordinary condition of men . when moses and the priests spake thus unto all israel ; take heed , and harken , o israel , that this day thou art become the people of the lord thy god ; ( deut. . . ) their meaning was not to imply , that they never had been the people of the lord until now , [ i. e. a people whom god had owned and countenanced from heaven , taken into covenant with himself , &c. ] but that god by the constant tenor of his gracious administrations towards them from time to time until that day , had made them now more his people , then ever , had further declared himself to be their god , and to accept and own them for a people peculiar to him , then formerly : and that upon this account it concerned them more neerly , then ever , to harken unto him , and obey his voyce . in like notion our saviour promiseth his disciples that he will pray the father , and that he should give them another comforter , even the spirit of truth , when as in the very same period or passage of speech , he affirmeth that this comforter , or spirit , was already given them , or ( which is the same ) dwelt now with , or in , them , joh. . , . so that he mentioneth a larger effusion or donation of the same spirit , as if it were the primitive or first gift thereof . in like manner , when being now upon his journey for the raising of lazarus from the dead , he saith to his disciples , i am glad for your sakes that i was not there , to the intent that you migt beleeve , ( joh. . . ) he expresseth their beleeving to a further degree , as if it were the first of their beleeving , and that they had not beleeved before . whereas it is evident from joh. . , . and other places , that they had beleeved on him before . when the apostle affirms this to be gods end in chastising his people , that they might be partakers of his holiness , ( hebr. . . ) he doth not suppose that they were in no degree partakers of his holiness before their chastisement ; but he expresseth a fuller and richer participation hereof , as if it were a simple , absolute , or original participation in this kinde . so again when the evangelist john saith , that the holy ghost was not yet given , because jesus was not glorified , ( joh. . . ) his meaning is not , that the spirit had in no measure been formerly given , ( for questionless all those who under the law beleeved , and so those , who in the days of our saviours converse on earth , before his glorification , beleeved unto justification , were led hereunto by the spirit here spoken of ; ) but he expresseth that abundant and most remarkable donation and pouring out of it upon the apostles and others , after , upon , and by vertue of christs ascention into glory , as if it had been the first , and only giving of it . and it is a good rule or observation , which testardus delivers hereupon . those things ( saith he ) are said not to be , or not to be done , before the times of the gospel , which do less [ or , not ] appear , or are less perceived [ or , felt ] before this fulness of times k so that when the apostle saith ( in the scripture under debate ) that god now [ in the times of the gospel ] commandeth all men every where to repent , it doth not necessarily imply , that god never till now commanded the same thing . ( i mean , repentance ) unto them ; but that now he commanded it upon other terms , with more expressness and particularity of command , upon more lively and pregnant grounds , or motives , with another edg of authority , under greater severity , of punishment threatened in case of disobedience , then he had commanded it formerly . many instances from the scriptures have been presented unto you , ( and many more , i doubt not , upon a little further search might be added unto them , ) wherein such a construction as this must of necessity be admitted . and that this is the true and genuine sence of the place in hand , appears yet further by the latter consideration mentioned , which respects the state or condition of all mankind under the times of that ignorance , of which the apostle speaketh , and before the days of the gospel . for that the world was then under a command from god to repent , is evident from hence , viz. because otherwise their impenitency , and obdurate proceedings in such ways and practises , which are contrary to the law of god , yea and the law of nature it self , had been no sin in them , nor obligatory unto punishment , the apostles assertion being express , that it is the law that worketh wrath , [ i. e. that subjecteth men unto punishment , ] because where no law is , there is no transgression , ( rom. . . ) meaning ( as he expresseth himself upon the account in the chapter following , vers. . ) that sin is not imputed [ i. e. charged upon men , or punished ] where there is no law . so that unless we shall suppose the world to have been absolutely lawless , and that the generality of men might without contracting any guilt , or making themselves liable unto punishment , have committed all the abominations , which they did commit , yea and ten times more , until the times of the gospel , we must of necessity make or suppose them subject to some law , or other of god , whereby he commands repentance unto men . yea the apostle himself , in the same sermon , and a very few verses before the words in contest , plainly supposeth the men we speak of , even all the nations of men , to have been , all the time before the gospel , under an engagement or obligation from god , to have sought him , which supposeth ( at least ) their repentance . and hath made of one blood all nations of men , for to dwell on all the face of the earth , and hath determined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitations , that they should seek the lord , if haply they might feel after him , and find him , though he be not far from every one of us , &c. act. . , . his meaning is , that god hath taken such a wise and gracious course , . in the creation and forming of men . . in disposing and governing them , that they might be in a good capacity of seeking him , and this so as to finde him ( and consequently to enjoy him , and to be made happy and blessed by him ) although their minds and understandings were much darkened through corrupt principles , which they had voluntarily drank in , and sinful practices wherein they had walked , in as much as he was neer enough to them all , to have been found by them , even by groping , or feeling , as men use to seek for things in the dark ; meaning , that by a very low strain of industry , an ordinary diligence and enquiry they might have discovered and found him out , so far as to have worshipped and served him with acceptation , and this under all those great disadvantages for the finding him out , which they had brought upon themselves . these things import much more then their being under a simple command from god to repent ; though it is true , that a command to repent , vertually and with interpretation , contains and comprehends the whole duty of man . nor do these words , which you urge and insist upon , and the times of this ignorance god winked at , import any thing contrary to what hath been now argued , or as if god had neither taken , nor meant to take , any account at all of those heathen , who , before the times of the gospel , had only the books of nature , providence , and creation , to instruct them , for their misdemeanors in sinning . the apostle expresly saith , that as many as have sinned without the law , shall perish without the law , rom. . . and a little before : tribulation and anguish upon every soul of him that doth evil ; of the jew first , and also of the gentile , ( to omit much more that might be readily cited from the same apostle to the same purpose . ) therefore when god is said {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to have over-looked , or winked at the times of ignorance , [ i. e. the ways and doings of men under these times , ] it is to be understood in a comparative sence , implying onely some such thing as this , that whilest means for the conversion of men from sin to righteousness , and for the bringing of them to the true knowledg and fear of god , were but low , scant , and weak in the world , in comparison of what they are now advanced unto by the shining of the light of the glorious gospel of christ amongst men , god was nothing so severe to mark what was done amiss , nothing so swift to execute judgment , or take vengeance on transgressors , as now he is , and intends to be , under the gospel ; the vouchsafement whereof unto the world , is as the laying of the ax to the root of the trees , upon which follows the hewing down , and casting into the fire , every tree , that bringeth not forth good fruit , mat. . . this sence is both very agreeable to the scripture-phrase , which frequently and familiarly expresseth a comparative sence in a positive and absolute form , ( see joh. . . cor. . . luk. . . joh. . . gal. . . not to mention other places of like purport , without number , ) and likewise perfectly accordeth with that principle of righteousness and equity , in and about the punishing of sin and sinners , which the scripture from place to place ascribeth unto god ; and which inclineth him to punish sins , committed against greater light , against means and motives of greater efficacy and power , with more severity proportionably , then those , which ( though otherwise the same ) are perpetrated , where means and motives for the refraining of such sins , are either fewer , or less effectual . see upon this account , amos . . compared with lam. . . and dan. . . deut. . . with . matth. . , . luk. . , . jer. . . compared with vers . . besides many other passages of like import . calvin , reading the words in present consideration between us , thus , et tempora quidem hujus ignorantiae cùm hactenùs dissimulaverit deus , neither approves your sence of them , nor mine , though his censure falls much heavier on yours , then on mine . he affirms , that pauls intent was not to extenute the sins of men , but onely to magnifie the grace of god , which had now on the sudden shone upon the world : and labors to confute such an interpretation , from that of the same apostle ( lately cited , ) they that have sinned without the law , shall notwithstanding perish without the law l his sence of the words is onely this , god winked at , or dissembled , the times of that ignorance , i. e. -that during the long tract and continuance of these times , god did not discover , or reveal himself unto men m . i finde some other modern expositors of good note steering the same course of interpretation with him . some conceive that the apostle speaks of the times past with those that were then living , and that his meaning is , that god would not lay to their charge [ i. e. punish , or destroy them for ] their idolatries past , if now they were willing to repent . of this judgment was chrysostom , and after him , oecumenius . neither of these interpretations fall in with the genius of your inference from the words , nor yet endamage my notion in the least ; which saith , that the heathen here spoken of , were under a command from god to repent , even all along the times of the ignorance , of which the apostle speaketh . but besides what hath been already offered to countenance the interpretation of the words awarded by me , i conceive this passage of the apostle , hebr. . vers . , , &c. doth better the account : for finding fault with them , he saith : behold , the days come ( saith the lord ) when i will make a new covenant with the house of israel , and the house of judah : not according to the covenant that i made with their fathers in the day that i took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of egypt , because they continued not in my covenant , and i regarded them not ( saith the lord : ) for this is the covenant that i will make , &c. these words , and i regarded them not , seem to run somewhat parallel with those in question , and the times of this ignorance god winked at ; and withall to carry some such sence and import as this ; that god , considering the weakness and imperfection of that covenant , which he made with them at mount horeb , upon their deliverance from egypt , how little spirit and life there was in this covenant to render them a people excellent and worthy god , in comparison of that covenant which he purposed to make with them afterwards in the gospel , upon their great deliverance from sin and hell to be accomplished by jesus christ , did accordingly expect no great matters from them , but was content {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( as the apostle speaks , acts . . ) to bear with their manners , to over-look many miscarriages , neglected to punish and take vengeance on them for such sins , the commission whereof under a covenant of more grace he would have vindicated most severely . but this onely by the way . towards the conclusion of your writing , you make this ingenuous and christian promise ( which contains as much , as i can with reason , or a good conscience , expect from you ) that if i can make it appear ( upon just , and carrying grounds ) that infants , naturals ( to whom god hath not given the use of reason ) and those many millions in all ages , who never heard the gospel , are bound to beleeve in christ for salvation , then you shall grant my minor , and admit my argument to be good ; viz. that christ dyed for all without exception , because all without exception are bound to beleeve . i suppose i have , and this upon no worse or weaker grounds then you require , made it fully apparant , that all the three sorts of persons you speak of , are , in a sence , which , i ( with many others ) call , sensus divisus , and which i have explained , bound to beleeve on christ for salvation . as for the sence , which ( haply ) you mean , and which i have termed , sensus compositus , your self have in a former passage ( and herein done nothing neither , but what reason and ingenuity , together with the interest of your own credit and conscience , obliged you unto ) acquitted me and my doctrine from intending it in reference to the two former sorts of persons , infants , and naturals . nor do i conceive that your self judg it any ways prejudicial to the salvation of either of these by christ , that they are , in this sence , utterly uncapable of beleeving on him ; unless you either judg them salvable by the law of nature , and without christ ( which i judg you cannot reasonably do ) or not at all ; which i suppose to be further from your thoughts , then the other . so that whether infants , or naturals , be capable , or not capable of beleeving in christ , yet if they be salvable by him , it undeniably follows , that he dyed for them . concerning the third and last sort , persons who though competent of understanding , yet never from first to last tasted of the letter of the gospel , i have proved at large ( and i trust , to your satisfaction , and other mens ) that such men as these , stand bound , both by the law of nature , and by positive law from god , to beleeve in jesus christ , and that without the letter of the gospel they are in a capacity of beleeving in him , so , or so far , as to be accepted therein unto salvation . thus having performed your conditions , i trust i may upon a legitimacy of claim demand the courtesie of your promise , being nothing but what is very lawful for you to grant , the admitance of my minor , and consequently the concluding validity of my argument . whereas you somewhere in your papers represent it as a thing very irrational , and unworthy belief , that christ should dye for those , who he knew were in no capacity , or possibility , of receiving benefit thereby , as all those were , who had perished in their sins , and were eternally condemned , before his death : my answer is ; that as at christs riding into jerusalem , as well the multitudes that went before , as those that followed , cryed , hosanna to the son of david , ( matt. . . ) so those that lived in the world before his incarnation , and sufferings , were in a blessed capacity of receiving remission of sins , and the great blessing of salvation , by his death , by beleeving on him as then to come , as well as those , who take their turns of mortality after him , and beleeve on him as already come . otherwise how should abraham , isaac , and jacob have been in a capacity of siting down and eating bread in the kingdom of god ? so that how ever the persons you speak of , who were under an irreversible sentence of condemnation for their sins , at the time when our saviour dyed , and in this respect were in no possibility of receiving benefit by his death ; yet there was a time , viz. whilest they lived in the world , when they were under the same possibility with other men of receiving the great benefit and blessing of salvation by him : and in this respect he may properly enough be said to have dyed for them ; i. e. to have dyed upon such terms , that they beleeving on him , whilest the day of grace lasted , as intending , or as being to dye for them in time , might have been saved by his death . and if this objection were of any force , neither can it truly be said that he dyed for abraham , isaac , or jacob , or for other saints , who had dyed in the faith ( as the apostle speaketh ) before his coming in the flesh , at least it cannot be said that he dyed for the remission of their sins , because they having obtained already , and being in full possession of , this heavenly priviledg , were in no possibility of obtaining it by christ at the time of his death . nor is it ( nor can it reasonably be imagined that it should be ) the intent of the doctrine , which teacheth that christ dyed for all men without exception , to affirm or teach withall , that he dyed upon such terms for all men , that all men at any time , or in every state and condition , whether living , or whether dead , whether free from , or whether insnared with , the guilt of the unpardonable sin , &c. should be in a capacity , or under a possibility , of being saved by him . the intire and clear meaning of the said doctrine ( as it is in effect stated by me cap. . § . . of my book of redemption ) is , that all persons of mankind whatsoever , are , or were , put into such a capacity of salvation by the death of christ , that if their own voluntary neglect , and notorious unworthiness , do not intervene and hinder , they may , or might , be all actually saved thereby . and thus i have , in the midst of many distractions , and under much encumbrance of business otherwise , faithfully , with a single and upright heart , and as in the presence of god , endeavored to satisfie your request touching the clearing and removing such scruples and difficulties , which , as you signifie , rendered this proposition of mine , all men , without exception , stand bound to beleeve on christ , questionable , or rather unquestionably false , unto you . whether any thing that hath been said will turn to so happy an account unto you , as satisfaction , i cannot prophecy : only i find you a man dis-ensnared from the superstition of vulgar credulity , and that will not sell the truth for the gain or price of that corruptible crown of being reputed orthodox ; and this is a door of hope opened unto me , that such things , which are agreeable both to the course and current of the scriptures , and no less to clear principles of reason , will over-rule you into such acknowledgments , which in the day of jesus christ will ( i question not ) be your honour , and peace . i confess i was extreamly unwilling to have been taken off from some other engagements lying upon my hand , by such a diversion , as the drawing up of this answer to your papers , must needs occasion : but god having over-ruled that inclination in me , i have so much the more hope that he hath somewhat of consequence to do with his providential interposure in this kind . i may very truly say , that the work , in respect of the undertaking of it , was very signally and emphatically , his , having scarce had so much of my will in it , as in that respect , to bear that denomination of being called , mine . notwithstanding being engaged , it was once in my thoughts to have made some further attempt upon your judgement by some other arguments , to evince an universal obligation upon all flesh to yield the obedience of faith unto the gospel , and to beleeve in jesus christ . but upon consideration , judging you so propense in affection to the truth , as to be ready to meet it half way in its advance towards you ; and being a little unwilling too far to anticipate my intendments for a larger discussion of the particulars discoursed in your papers , i resolved rather to contain my self at present within the narrow bounds of this answer . the excrescency whereof to prevent , i forbare the printing of your papers with it ; and this the rather , because i had no commission from you to publish them . if your desire yet be to have them published , my best assistance shall be yours for the procuring , and best ordering of it . the god of all grace and truth , break up the fountains of the great depths of spiritual knowledg , and heavenly understanding in his word , before both you , and me , and all others , who love the truth at a better rate , then to fear the shame of being counted erroneous for the profession of it ; that the waters of life may flow out abundantly from us , for the watering and refreshing of the dry and barren root of the world round about us . from my study , colemanstr . london , decemb. . . yours in jesus christ , as your self , and your own soul , j. goodwin . post-script ; to be read in pag. . lin. . immediately after these words , since his fall . that adam , during the interìm between his fall , and the promulgation of the evangelical promise unto him , was under no obligation to repent , is evident from hence ; because if so , this tye ( according to your distribution ) must be upon him , either by vertue of the law of nature , written in his heart , or else , of some positive law of god . but , . for any positive law , there was none made or given unto him by god , during the time we speak of : nor was there any of this import given unto him before ; i mean , whereby he was commanded to repent , in case he sinned , or rebelled against god . . if the repentance we speak of , was required of adam as due by the law of nature , then was it required either in order to his salvation , and as sufficient and available hereunto ; or else as matter of meer duty , without any reference to a reward . if it were required of him in order to his salvation , then was there a principle vested by god in the nature of man , whereby he was enabled to recover and save himself , in case of sin and disobedience : yea and this principle must be supposed to have been carryed over by adam , unmaimed and in sufficient strength for action , out of his estate of righteousness or innocency , wherein he was created , into that estate of sin and misery , wherein he plunged himself by his fall . and if so , then must it be supposed also to remain in the same vigor and strength in all his posterity , ( for there is no reason to imagine a difference in this point between adam fallen , and his posterity : ) and if so , then all , and every person of mankinde without exception , must be supposed to be in a capacity of salvation , yea to be in an immediate capacity of doing such things which accompany salvation . and if so , then christ must of necessity be supposed to have dyed for them all , in as much as without shedding of blood there is no remission , and consequently no salvation , or capacity or possibility of being saved . if it be said , that that repentance which we enquire after , was required of adam as meer matter of duty , and not in reference to any reward intended to be given unto him by god thereupon ; . this ( i presume ) is contrary to your own sence , who ( if i mistake you not ) conceive , that the heathen , without faith in christ , are in a capacity of such a repentance , which , in reference to them , is available unto salvation . . it seems contrary to the course and current of the scriptures , that god should require service or obedience from his creature , otherwise then in order to their happiness . see to this purpose : gen. . . deut. . . & . , . psal. . . & . , , &c. isai. . . rom. . . ( besides many others . ) finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a multos hoc decipit , quod christum arbitrantur ubique exacte & sollicité , quomodo aristoteles aliquis , locutum fuisse ; quod est a vero al●●num . camero . myroth . p. . rom. . . psal. . . act. . , . rom. . . hebr. . rom , . . a tametsi eaim in mundo nibil reperietur savore dei digaum , se tamen 〈◊〉 mundo propitium oftendit , cum sine exceptione omnes ad fidem christi vocat , quae nihil aliud est , quam ingressus in vitam . calvin . in job . . , . b adeum modum habet & redemptis istae generis oumam , de qua loquiatur , quod illam homines reprobi , ac deplorate impii non accipiant , neque defectu sit gratiae dei , atque justam est ut illa propter filios perditionis , gloriam ac titulum universalus redemptionis amittat , cum sit parata cunctis , & omnes ad illam vocentur . musculus , loc. de redempt . generis humani . a hic duo observemus : deum nullis unquam seculis homines doctrina salutis destituisse ; proinde , quicunq , unquam perierunt , sua culpa periisse . naturam ita perfundit sua lucc deus , ut hi tantum a justicia aliem maneant qui eam ultro a se rejiciunt . sunt & hodie gentes non paucae quibus evangelium christi liaudquaquam sinceriter prae dicatur ; sunt , quae de to nihil ptorsus audiunt . hi autem si non ultro justiciae studium repudiarent , dominus indu●ie spiritu suo sic eos animaret , ut quae legis sunt , praestarent , committerent se totos ipsius bonitati , proximis faccrent , quae cupiunt fieri sibi . hinc fieret ut deus citius angelum cis mitteret uti fecit corailio , quam ut ignorare cos christum suum pateretur . sed dum impie ingrati iniquitate sua detinent revelatam jam ipsis veritatem , merentur , non solum ut nihil praeterea boni spiritus acciptant , sed etiam ut dentur in sensum reprobum , &c. alterum hic observandum est , ut ipsi quoque huic operi legis , quod insctiptum est cordibus nostris , recto illi ( ut divinitus impresso ) sensui , quo perperuo vocamtr ad fancta & honesta studia , revocamur a pravis , auscultemus , &c. buter in enar , ad roman . c. . v. sed ut superius quoque ostendimus , magis id ex instituto pauli fuit , ut objiceret iudaeis gentes etiam ante cis revelatum christum , verae justiciae fuiffe compotes . idem in vers. . ejusdem cap. b nam in terra abscondisse dicit , quod rationem quae ad imaginem & st . m●l●●tudinem data est nobis , studio voluptatis obeuit , & tanquam in sovea ca●●● abscondit . ambr. . . l. . comment. in luc. c. . circa finem nam illa talenta , quae cuique distribuuntur {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , nego significare posse vitam aeternam , ratio certissima , quia illa distribuuntur servis omnibus , non tantum frugi , sed etiam nequam . et paulo post ; itaque necesse est referri [ talenta ] ad gratias temporales , quas deus communicat , non piis tantum sed etiam impi●s ; non electis tantum , sed etiam rep obis . chamier . panstr . . c. . l : . c. sect , , c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. athanas . de incarn. verbi . p. , . edis . commel . d et sunt qui promiscue tam de gentibus , quam de ludaeis haec exponant . fateor quidem pieratis ●●aenam grana semper in toto orbe fuisse sparsa , &c. calvin . in ioh. . . e promittit ergo illos ejus gaudii consortes fore , in quod jam olim ingrests sint sancti patres & propherae , qui agrum domini studiose colendo , vetae pieratis femina in toto orbe sparserunt . gualter . homil. . in iohan. f id veto de patriarchis & prophetis dicitur , quoium opera & ministerio deus usus est in mundo excolendo , & praeparando ad meflem hanc evangelieam . ibid. secuti sunt prophetae quorum sermones longe lateque per diversas gentes fuerunt vulgati . g subactum est arvum a prophetis , qui non tantam in lucae , sed & per dispersio ne● varias acpud gentes voce ac lcriptis homines ad unius dei cultum excitarant , quod semen est evangelicae frugi● . hug. grot. in iob. . h expendamus etiam quanta sitista christi filii hominis majestas , potentia , & gloria , quod ad pedum illius oscula reges terrae , absque ulla discriminatione , quanti quanti sint , vocantur . quis nam mortalium ab hac submissione excipitur , quando illa ipsis quoque regibus imponitur ? musculus , in psal. . vers . . i non enim musitatum aut rarum est in scriptura easdem premissiones , vel praedictiones , velres alias semel jam datas & commemoratas , postea diversis temporibus tanquam novas denuo tradere & commemorare . pererius in gen. . . solet [ christus ] de his rebus quae alio modo , quam ante , post resurrectionem eg● , ita loqui , qua si non egerit . maldonatus in mat. . . k verum ea non esse , aut non fieri ante evangelii tempora dicuntur , quae minus apparent , aut minus sentiuntur ante istam temporum plenitudinem . testard . synops . doctr. de nat. &c. thes● . . l alii secu● interpretantur , deum ignorantiae pepercisse , quasi conniveret , punire nolens . sed tale commentum prorsus alienum est a mente pauli , & consilio ; cui minime proposit●m fuit extenuare hominum culpam , sed dei gratiam , quae repente astulserat , magnifacere . et ex aliis locis salsum esse coarguitur , quia qui sine leg peccaverint , sine lege nihilominus peribunt . m in summa , nihil aliud sibi volunt verba pauli , quam caec●tati addit●os fuisse homines donec se illis pate fecit deus . theomachia; or the grand imprudence of men running the hazard of fighting against god, in suppressing any way, doctrine, or practice, concerning which they know not certainly whether it be from god or no. being the substance of two sermons, preached in colemanstreet, upon occasion of the late disaster sustain'd in the west. with some necessary enlargements thereunto. / by john goodvvin, pastor of the church of god there. goodwin, john, ?- . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) theomachia; or the grand imprudence of men running the hazard of fighting against god, in suppressing any way, doctrine, or practice, concerning which they know not certainly whether it be from god or no. being the substance of two sermons, preached in colemanstreet, upon occasion of the late disaster sustain'd in the west. with some necessary enlargements thereunto. / by john goodvvin, pastor of the church of god there. goodwin, john, ?- . [ ], p. printed for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop entering into pope's-head-alley out of lumbard-street, london : . first word in title transliterated from greek characters. annotation on thomason copy: "octo: ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng sermons, english -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no theomachia; or the grand imprudence of men running the hazard of fighting against god, in suppressing any way, doctrine, or practice, concer goodwin, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - olivia bottum sampled and proofread - olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion ΘΕΟΜΑΧΙΑ ; or the grand imprudence of men running the hazard of fighting against god , in suppressing any way , doctrine , or practice , concerning which they know not certainly whether it be from god or no . being the substance of two sermons , preached in colemanstreet , upon occasion of the late disaster sustain'd in the west . with some necessary enlargements thereunto . by john goodvvin , pastor of the church of god there . heb. . . it is a fearefull thing to fall into the hands of the living god . mat. . . whosoever shall fall on ( or , stumble at ) this stone , shall be broken in pieces . imprimatur . john bachiler . london ; printed for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop entring into popes-head alley out of lumbard-street . . reader ; we have an english saying , that the burnt childe dreads the fire . i have oft been cast into the fire of mens zealous indignations , by an uncleane spirit of calumnie and slander ; some have reported , that i deny justification by christ , i. that the sun is up at noone day ; others , that i deny the immortalitie of the soule , i. that i murthered my father and my mother ; others , that i have preached against the parliament and assembly , i. that i am out of my wits , and weary of my present life , and carelesse of that which is to come . i perceive there are more sons of belial , then those that witnessed against naboth , that he blasphemed god and the king . but having no vineyard to accommodate any man , i cannot easily conceive , what men and their tongues meane to be still up in such unchristian contestations with me ; except this be it ; because i speak the truth , and men are not able to beare it ; therefore they resolve ( it seems ) to make me speak such untruths , that i my selfe shall not be able to beare . i confesse , i doe not much dread this fire , made of the tongues of asps and vipers , not because i have not been sufficiently burnt by it , but partly because i have been a long time accustomed to such burnings , and have found them rather purifying , then consuming : partly , because the great apostle informs me , that the way by which he passed into his glory , was through honour , and dishonour , through good report , and evill report . yet neverthelesse , i had rather give an account of mine own words , then of other mens pretending to be mine ; and so to keep out of the fire , as farre as the peace and safety of my own soule and other mens , will suffer me . and this is the true account ( reader ) of the publishing of these sermons , which ( haply ) had not been an action so necessary otherwise . understanding that the soule spirit , which hath for severall years haunted my ministery , was beginning to practise upō 〈…〉 ●ermons also , i thought it the safer course of the two , to put my self into the hands of the truth ( which yet perhaps will not much befirend me neither , in the thoughts and hearts of men , though with god , i am certain , it will ) then to expose both it and my selfe to be rent and torne by him . what good , or hurt , they will or are like to doe , now they are gotten abroad , is not easie , either for thee , or me , so much as to conjecture . be it in this , as god and men shall agree . when the danger of the disease runs high , there is little hope but onely in that physicke , whereof there is some feare . we are under a bondage of much misery , and it is onely the truth ( as our saviour saith ) that can make us free : and yet such is our condition and misery , that there is cause to feare , lest the truth , which onely is able to make us free , should increase our bondage and misery , by being rejected and opposed by us , when it comes in love and mercy to visit us , and to blesse us out of our misery . for this end i was borne ( as our saviour saith of himself , joh. . . ) that i should beare witnesse to the truth , not to the opinions or apprehensions of men . in which respect i know i am like to have the harder quarter and service in the world ; but god hath made me a lover of men in such a degree , that i can willingly consecrate my selfe unto their service , through any sufferings from them . if this world faile me , i know god hath prepared another for a reserve , which will stand by me , and will not faile . reader , take my prayers along with thee , and an honest heart of thine own ; and so passe on to the sermons before thee ; doubtlesse they will either strengthen thy hand in the way thou art in , or guide thy feet into a way thou art not in , or at least qualifie thy spirit with christian patience and respects towards such a way . from my study in colemanstreet , octob. . . thine with an upright and single heart in christ jesus , john goodvvin . θεομαχια or the grand imprudence of men , running the hazard of fighting against god , in suppressing any way , doctrine , or practice , concerning which they know not certainly whether it be from god , or no . acts . . and now i say unto you , refraine your selves from these men , and let them alone : for if this counsell or work be of men , it will come to nought ; but if it be of god , yee cannot destroy it , lest yee be found even fighters against god . when the children of israel , in the progresse of their warres upon the canaanites ▪ wherein god had promised to be with them , and to give them successe , and that a man of their enemies should not be able to stand against them : notwithstanding they fought under the protection of many such promises as these , yet met with a disaster and losse , thirty six of them being slaine by the men of ai , and the rest of the partie ingaged in that service put to rout , and chased by their enemies : god himselfe upon the great dejection and solemne humiliation of the elders of israel , and joshua their generall , was pleased to make knowne unto him by speciall revelation , what root of bitternesse it was that brought forth this fruit of death , what sin by name it was amongst them , that had separated between him and them in their late sad miscarriage , yea , and would separate still , to their further and greater misery , except they took a course to make an atonement for themselves , by purging and clensing themselves from it . onely the discovery or finding out of the person that had committed the sin , was put upon joshua and the people ; wherein yet againe they were directed by god to such a method or means for this discovery , that god himselfe may be said too to have discovered even the sinner also . for he it was , that by a speciall directing hand of his providence , caused the lot to fall upon achan , who was the man that in taking the excommunicate thing , had fin'd that great and speciall provocation , which was fallen in this gust of wrath from heaven upon the people . these things you shall finde related more at large josh. . from which passages by the way ( amongst many other very observable ) you may take knowledge of these three things . first , that when god is at any time ingaged , and his hand in ( as we use to say ) shewing mercy and doing good to his people , he is seldome or never wont to change or alter the tenour of his present dispensations , to break off the course of his grace by suffering evill to come upon them , but upon some speciall discontent taken , from some speciall sin or other , one or more , committed by them . secondly , that sometimes the sin of one or of some few , in a great societie or body of people , in the provocation or guilt of it , redounds and runs over to the involving and defiling of the whole societie , and rendring all the members thereof obnoxious to the displeasure of god . thirdly , that the best , if not the onely way for the people of god , being under the disfavour of god , and stroke of his displeasure , to make atonement for themselves , and to recover his favour , is to make diligent search and strict inquiry , what that sin by name should be , which hath turned away the heart of their god from them , and accordingly to remove it . my brethren , the case of the children of israel upon their losse neere unto the citie of ai , is our condition and case at this day ; save onely that the hand of god hath been laid heavier upon us , then it was upon them , in that breach . god had begun to doe great and gracious things for us , yea he had gon on for a good space together , treading and trampling downe the strength of our enemies under us apace ; insomuch , that wee began to take our harps down from the willow trees , on which we had hung them , to prepare our selves to sing the song of moses , the man of god : but loe on the suddaine wee are smitten back againe into the places of dragons , and the god of our lives hath covered us with the shadow of death . that vision of peace and good things which was let downe from heaven unto us , and was come so neere us , that wee began to arise , thinking none other but to fall to and eate presently ; is now againe taken up from us into the heavens , and we have lost the sight of it . the best art and wisdome we can use to open the heavens over us , and cause them to deliver downe that treasure againe to us , to heale our present wound , if it be not deadly , is to make as narrow a search , as strict an inquiry , as we can , what that particular and speciall sin or provocation amongst us is , the chastisement whereof is now upon us , and which hath brought the rod of this indignation upon our backs . if god himselfe would please by speciall revelation to make knowne what this sin is , as he did unto joshua and the people of israel , satisfaction in this point were at hand , nor should we need to abide the various and conjecturall discourses of men , ministers or others , about the matter : but having perfected that standing revelation of himselfe , the scriptures , he refraines revelations extraordinary , and leaves his people to consult with these oracles of his for resolution , in all such cases of question and difficulty as this ; onely promising the gracious assistance and guidance of his spirit unto those that shall aske it of him , and not lay stumbling blocks in their way otherwise , to direct them in such dark and dubious inquiries as these . and one speciall end ( i conceive ) ay●ed at by that authority , which hath set apart this day for a solemne humiliation of our selves before god , was , that ministers and people should joyne together in fervent prayer ▪ and supplication unto god , that the one may be directed to make a true and unpartiall discovery of this ●inne , and the other judge of the discovery being made accordingly : that so the troubler of israel being found out , execution may be done , and god pacified . in consideration whereof it is , that i made choice of the scripture read unto you , upon the present occasion ; conceiving that very sin to be there described , yea , and expressed by name , ( though somewhat more generall ) which hath occasioned the sad interruption of late made in our hopefull proceedings , yea , and which in all likelihood wrought against us formerly , both in that blow which was reached us from heaven , in that as strange , as sorrowfull a defeat at newark , and otherwise ; but was not then known or considered of . the lord grant that yet at last it may enter into all our hearts to conceive aright , and to consider of it , lest it brings forth yet againe like bitter fruits , yea , and magnifies it selfe at last in our utter ruine and destruction . but let us addresse unto the words ; and in them consider , first , their relation and coherence in the context , and then their sense and meaning . for the former ; the words are part of a speech made by one gamaliel ( as he is called ver. . ) a pharisee , and doctor of the law , in an assembly or councell at jerusalem . the councell ( as appeares ver. . &c. ) was called , about the apostles , their doctrine and proceedings ; the chief designe and intendment of it , was to consider and resolve what course to take with them , how to suppresse both them and their doctrine , being both looked upon as prejudiciall to their personall and private interests , both of honour and profit , in that state and nation ; and as likely to carry away the hearts and affections of much people from them . when they had sent for peter and the other apostles by a captain with his officers , to appeare before the councell , the prolocutor or chief priest , charged them after this manner : ver. . did not we straitly command you , that you should not teach in this name ? and yee have filled jerusalem with your doctrine , &c. when peter and the other apostles , standing stiffe to their tackling , had made their answer , fully justifying what they had done , and given a brief accompt of that doctrine about which they were questioned , and of their calling to preach and beare witnesse of the same unto the world ; it is said ( ver. . ) that the councell , seeing them upon those termes , hearing them speake at such a rate , burst in sunder for anger ( as the former translation ) or ( as the latter hath it ) were cut at the heart , and took counsell how to slay them . what ? would they not submit to the authority and advice of such a reverend , learned , and pious assembly as that ? did they thinke themselves wiser then they ? would they preach a doctrine that should asperse them , and bring them out of credit and request with the people ? such men as they were not meet to be tolerated in the state , nor yet to live ; and therefore they would fall upon some course , how to free themselves , the state and nation of them , and that must be in no lighter way , with no lower hand , then death it selfe , they must die for it . this ( it seems ) was the sense and resolution of the generality of the assembly , untill one of them , ( that gamaliel we speake of ) a man of a better temper and deeper reach then his fellowes , excited to speak , and assisted in speciall manner by god in speaking , by a grave speech tending to moderation , qualified their spirits in part , and brought them to accept of somewhat a lighter attonement from the apostles , for their supposed sin , then their lives would have amounted unto . for their spirits were so full of bitterness and indignation against them , that notwithstanding all that gamaliel could say , they were resolved to have their peniworths of them , ( as we use to say ) to ease themselves on them so far , as to cause them to be beaten , and withall , severely to charge them the second time , to give over preaching their erroneous and dangerous doctrine , to speak no more in the name of jesus , ver. . what the tenor of gamaliels speech was , from the begining to the end of it , you may read , beginning at ver. . untill the end of . men of israel , take heed to your selves , what yee do to these men ; as if he should have said , yee will but run a needlesse hazard of bringing evill , or ruine upon your selves by attempting any thing for the present , in a way of violence against these men ; implying , that men had need take heed how they ingage themselves to suppresse , molest , or destroy any generation or sort of men whatsoever , untill they have a cleer and expresse warrant from heaven for the execution . to perswade them not to be too precipitate or forward in any course of violence against the apostles , he declares to them by a double instance ( well known unto themselves ) that if they be seducers and evill men , and so worthy to be destroyed , god himself would in a short time , reveal his wrath from heaven against them , and bring them and their work to ruin . for thus he had done both formerly by one t●e●d●● , and more lately by judas of galilee ; who projecting great matters for themselves without any warrant or authority from god , though they went on , and seem'd for a while to prosper in their way , drawing great numbers of people after them , were yet , both they and all their complices and followers , by a speciall hand of god scattered and brought to nought . upon the mention of these two memorable examples of divine justice against seducers and deceivers , he infers as followeth in the words read unto you . and now i say unto you , refraine from these men , and let them alone , &c. this for the coherence . for the sense of the words ( briefly ) refrain from , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is , stand , or keep off from them , depart from them , go yee your way , and let them go their way ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , let them alone , or suffer them , that is , ( as some understand it ) do not only forbeare persecuting of them your selves by your authority , but be no occasion that the roman power any wayes interposeth to molest them : do not betray them into the hand of violence otherwise ; or else the doubling of the caution , may import the weightinesse of the matter in his apprehension that speaketh . however , by this double caution or item he gives unto them , not to have any thing to do ( for the present ) with the apostles , in any way of molestation , he discovers an utter aversenesse in him to such proceedings . wherefore he gives this reason further . for if this counsell or work be of men , it will come to nought ] i. if the design which these men drive , with the method , course and means whereby they carry it on , hath no better foundation to bear it up , but either their own wisdomes , interest , and authority , or some other mens , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , it will be dissolved , or come to nought , it will soon discover its originall by its end , if it were taken out of the dust , to dust it will return ; and they that are ingaged in it , will fall and sink with it . but if it be from god ] i. if it be countenanced or authorized by god , if he be the founder of it ; yee cannot destroy or dissolve it , lest , &c. i. you must not , or you ought not , to attempt any thing against it to destroy or dissolve it , because by such an attempt as this , you will do no better then fight against god . yee cannot ] viz. lawfully , or wisely , or upon any good ground . there is a double impotency , or impossibility often mentioned in scripture ; the one we may call naturall , or physicall , the other morall . with the first kinde of impossibility , things are said to be unpossible , when there wants a naturall or executive principle of strength or power in any kind to do them : with the latter , that is said to be unpossible for a man to do , for the doing wherof he hath no ground or warrant either in the word of god , or in reason or equity , though he hath never so much naturall strength or power to do it . of this latter kind , the apostle paul speaketh , cor. . . where he saith , that hee could do nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; meaning , that he had no ground or warrant , either from god , or otherwise , to do any such thing . so again , cor. . . yee cannot drink the cup of the lord , and the cup of the devill ; i. yee cannot do it lawfully ; or with any congruity either to the principles of christianity , or of sound reason . of this kind of impotency or impossibility , that common saying in the civill law speaketh , id tantum possumus , quod jure possumus . of the other kind , we have many instances also ; i spake to thy disciples to cast him out , but they could not ( mar. . . ) i. they wanted an executive principle or power , whereby to do it : otherwise it was lawfull enough for them to have done it . so again , mar. . . and mar. . . besides many other . destroy or dissolve it ] i. do or attempt any thing to destroy it . not only the endevours and attempts , but even the purposes and intents of doing things , are often in scripture expressed by words , which properly signifie the doing or effecting the things themselves . many good works ( saith our saviour , joh. . ) have i shewed you from my father : for which of these works do you stone me ? i. do you intend , or go about to stone me ? for they had not yet actually stoned him . thus heb. . . abraham is twice said to have offered up his son isaac , because he was fully intended , and had attempted to offer him . besides many the like : so here , you cannot destroy it , i. you ought not , you cannot with reason go about or attempt the destroying of it . — lest you be found even fighters against god ; meaning , that in case the doctrine and way of those men , against whom they were incensed , should be from god , and they nevertheless seek to destroy them , they would by such a course dash themselves against such a stone as would break them to pieces ; they would be found even to fight against god . that causall particle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , lest , doth not alwayes note a hazard , or uncertainty of an effect or consequent ; but many times signifies as much as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ut non , and is us'd as well to signifie the dependance as well of a certain and necessary , as of a contingent effect , upon its cause : ● so here , you cannot destroy it , lest you be found , &c. i. if you attempt to destroy it , you will be found , &c. be found● the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to be found , in such a construction as this , oft notes the unexpectednesse of somewhat befalling a person , whether in respect of his own , or other mens expectations . thus it is said of the virgin mary , that before joseph and she came together , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , she was fovnd with child , meaning , beyond , or contrary to expectation . so luk. . . whereas moses and elias were immediately before the voyce from heaven , taken notice of by the apostles to have been present with christ upon the mount , as soone as ever the voyce was past , it is said of him , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , he was found alone , to imply that moses and elias were withdrawn before the apostles were aware , or thought of it . to passe by other instances for this importance of the word ; it is said of babylon the great ▪ ( rev. . . ) that in her was found ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) the blood of the prophets , and of the saints , and of all that were slain upon the earth ; meaning , that whereas this city had till now thought her self the most religious city under heaven , the mother and patroness of prophets and saints , an enemy only unto heretiques and persons hatefull unto god ; now when god came to call her to an account , and to enter into judgement with her , contrary to her expectation and opinion of her self , she was discovered and evicted to have been the most cruell and bloody enemy that ever prophets or saints had , yea , and further , a principall actress in the slaughter of many millions otherwise . so gamaliel , expressing himself thus to the councell , lest you be fovnd even fighters against god ; gives them to understand , that how holy , wise , or just soever they might seem in their own eyes , yea , and might think themselves the furthest of any men under heaven from practising or fighting against god , yet if they went on with their present intentions and resolutions against the men they had now before them , they might fall into this heavie guilt and condemnation , when they thought least of it . the heaviness of which guilt is further implyed , in that emphaticall particle {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , even ▪ even fighters against god ; which particle of speech in such constructions as this , is intensive in an high degree , and still imports somewhat very remarkable in what is joyned with it . in such an importance as this , you shall find it used , matth. . . for the son of man is lord {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , even of the sabbath ; meaning , that this was a very transcendent lordship indeed , and such as was incompatible unto any , but unto him who need count it no robbery to be equall with god . so mar. . . and elsewhere . thus gamaliel admonishing his colleagues , to consider well what they did , lest they should be found even fighters against god , plainly intimates unto you , that this is one of the worst stones in the world to stumble at , and that no improvidence or inconsiderateness whatsoever besides , is like to make any such breach upon the comfort and peace of the creature , as for men to ingage themselves in any such action or course , wherein they shall be found fighters against god . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , fighters against god ] . every act of sin , especially with knowledge and consent of will , is ( in a sense ) a fighting against god : but that sin which gamaliel here intends in his expression of fighting against god , is a sin of an higher nature then ordinary , as appeares by the particle {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , even , joyn'd with it , and formerly opened . therefore by fighting against god ( in this place ) must needs be meant some high and peremptory action or ingagement of the creature , wherein it opposeth god in some speciall or remarkable design , which he seeketh either to set on foot , or else to carry on in the world , whether the opposer knowes it to be a designe of god's or no . and thus the propagating of that doctrine , which the apostles preached , being a designe of god , the opposition of the councell against it , especially with so high an hand as the crushing , or slaying of the apostles , who were appointed by god to publish it , would have been , was , and would have been very properly , a fighting against god . the words explain'd , are matter ready prepared for doctrine and observation . onely one word ( by the way ) for answer to that question ; what authoritie , weight , or credit , is to be given to that which gamaliel delivers in this speech of his to the councell ? whether may we build upon every thing , or any thing , spoken by him , as authorized by god ? i answer ; . that there is little question to be made , but that the spirit of the man , was in speciall manner touch'd and stirr'd up by the spirit of god , to interpose in the behalfe of the apostles , as he did ; as the spirit of nicodemus ( another branch of the same root ) formerly had been , to stand up and speake in the behalfe of christ , joh. . . . the principall end and scope of what he spake , being the rescuing of the apostles from the bloudy counsells of those who had concluded their death , and were consulting about the execution ; plainly sheweth , that there was more of god then ordinary in the thing , especially if we consider further , that he who thus inexpectedly appeared with shield and buckler for the apostles defence , was of that sect or generation of men , who generally hated and opposed the doctrine of christ with more inveterate and viperous malignitie of spirit , then any other . . evident it is , . that the intent , end , and scope of gamaliel in this speech to the councell , being the bringing of the apostles from the bloudy rage and violence of men , was good , and agreeable to the will and word of god . and . as evident likewise it is , that the speech it selfe , in the whole carriage , and in all the passages of it , is duly , and with all exactnesse of wisdome and prudence , proportioned to the end , and tends in a direct and regular way to effect it . now whatsoever directly and regularly tends to the effecting of that which is good , must needs be good , and consequently from god . that which is good may occasionally and by some collaterall influence of providence , be brought to passe , by means that are evill ; but in a regular and direct way , it can onely be produced by that which is good . there is no more friendship or fellowship naturally , between good ends and ill means , then is between light and darknesse , christ and belial . but . ( and lastly ) there being nothing in all this speech ( excepting onely the historicall instances , the truth of which , it seems , was generally knowne among the jews , and is attested by josephus their great historian ) but what is fully consonant with the word of god , ( unquestionably so acknowledged ) elsewhere , the credit and authority of it , for matter of truth , is one and the same with those other scriptures corresponding with it . what we here learne ( saith gualter upon the place ) should be unto us as an oracle , viz. that the counsells of god are not to be defeated or hindred by any strength of man ; but for the counsells of men , they fall , and sink , and come to nothing of themselves . in the words , there be these six ensuing points of doctrine , faire and large , besides many others of a more collaterall and illative observation . first , from those words , ver. . and now i say unto you , refraine from these men , and let them alone : for , &c. observe , that it is a point of much wisdome to forbeare the oppression , or suppression of such persons , doctrines , and wayes , which men have any reasonable cause at all to judge or thinke , that they are , or may be , from god . secondly , from those doubtfull expressions of so great a doctor of the law , and one that knew how to measure and estimate the authoritie and weight of a councell-determination , and besides can no wayes be suspected of any disaffection or prejudicatenesse against such authoritie , from those doubtfull expressions ( i say ) of this man , if this counsell or work be of men , &c. and againe , if it be of god , &c. observe , that the determination of a councell , or of the major part of a councell against a way , doctrine , or practice , is no demonstrative or sufficient proofe for any wise man to rest or build upon , that such a way , doctrine , or practice , are not from god . the whole councell , as you heard , this one man excepted , had peremptorily concluded the doctrine and practice of the apostles , to be , not from god , but from men , and thereupon were in high consultation to suppresse them , and that by death ; yet all this did not satisfie gamaliel in point of judgement or conscience , he was still but where he was , doubtfull and in suspence with himselfe about the businesse . thirdly , from that clause , if this counsell or work be from men , it will come to nought ] observe , that every invention , contrivance , way , or device of man , especially in things either appertaining or pretending to appertaine unto god , in matters of religion , will in time weare out into nothing and be dissolved . fourthly , from the connexion or dependance between the former and latter parts of ver. . but if it be from god , yee cannot destroy it , lest , &c. observe , that for any man , or men , to attempt the suppression of any doctrine , way , or practise that is from god , is to fight against god himselfe . fiftly , from that significant phrase or expression , of being fovnd fighters against god , ver. . observe , that many , who possibly for the present may conceive and thinke , and that with much confidence , that they fight for god , when the truth comes to an unpartiall and perfect scanning , will be found to have fought against him . sixtly , ( and lastly ) from the importance and weight of that emphaticall particle , even , in the last clause , lest yee be found even fighters against god ; observe , that fighting against god , is a most dangerous posture or ingagement , for a creature to be taken or found in by god at any time . the dread and terror of such a misprision as this , is the base and ground-work upon which gamaliel builds the fabrick of that important counsell and advice , which he gives unto his fellows , thoroughout his discourse or speech made unto them . we shall for the present ( passing by all the rest ) pitch upon that doctrine mentioned in the fourth place , the tenor and effect whereof was this ; that for any man to endeavour or attempt the suppression of any doctrine , practice , or way , which is from god , is to fight against god himselfe . for the sense and true import of the doctrine , i shall need to adde little beyond what was said , in explication of the words ; here we briefly shewed what was meant by fighting against god . i now onely adde this , ( which is somewhat more particular ) that it is not every degree or kind of opposing a way , doctrine , or designe of god , which either the text , or the doctrine calleth a fighting against god ; but onely such an opposing which is peremptory , and carried on with an high hand , so that those agents or instruments of god , which he hath anointed to hold forth that way , doctrine , or designe of his in the world , are not suffered to execute their commission , but are countermanded either by the authoritie or over-bearing strength and power of men . it is one thing to oppose , or contend against a doctrine or way of god , per modum doctoris , as when a minister through a mistake or weaknesse of judgement , pleads for baal against god , preacheth error up , and truth downe , which may befall the best and faithfullest of men : another , to doe it per modum judicis , as when men will assume an authoritative power , whether ecclesiastique or civill , to suppresse or silence the publishing , practising , arguing , or debating of such wayes or doctrines , with the judgements and consciences of men . it is true , even this kind of opposing them , is sometimes incident to men otherwise upright in the maine before god : but the children of this contention and contestation against their maker , must expect to be taught r●ore wisdome and reverence towards him , with briars and thornes . if men fight against god after any such manner as this , upon such termes as if they were gods too , this will ingage him to take up armes also in his own defence , and provoke him to fight against those , who fight against him . this for opening the doctrine . for the confirmation of the truth of it , wee shall not need to cause many scriptures to labour : the word will be sufficiently established in the mouth of two or three of these witnesses . why doe the heathen rage , ( saith david ) and the people imagine a vaine thing ? the kings of the earth set themselves , and the rulers take counsell together against the lord and against his anointed , saying , let us break their bands asunder , and cast away their cords from us , &c. those expressions , of raging , setting themselves , taking counsell together against the lord and his anointed , amount every whit as much as to a fighting against the lord . and what was it , that the heathen , people , kings , and rulers of the earth , did , or attempted to doe against the lord and against his anointed ; ( meaning christ ) was it any thing else but to quench that fire , which christ ( as himselfe saith ) came to kindle , to suppresse the gospel , to cut off those wayes of righteousnesse and holinesse from the knowledge and practise of men , which are therein recommended and held forth unto the world ? these are the bands , which they set themselves thus to cut asunder , and the cords , which , if it had been possible , they would have cast from them . saul , saul , ( saith the lord christ from heaven unto him , as he was travailing towards damascus ) why persecutest thou me ? and he said , who art thou lord ? and the lord said , i am jesus , whom thou persecutest , &c. act. . , . to persecute christ ( and consequenly , god himselfe , who is in christ , cor. . ) imports every whit as much , as to fight against christ , and somewhat more . but why is saul here charged with persecuting christ ? what course of hostilitie did he run or practice against him ? it is said ( ver. . ) that he desired letters of the high priest to damascus to the synagogues , that if he found any of this way , whether they were men , or women , he might bring them bound to jerusalem . whereby it appears , that the precise opposition against christ , upon which saul was arrested from heaven ( as we heard ) under the termes of persecuting him , was his attempting with so high and bloudy an hand , to destroy out of the world that way of worshipping & serving god , which christ in his gospel recommends unto , and chargeth upon the world . men and women were not the precise and formall object of his hatred and persecution , but that way of christ in the gospel , which they maintained , practised , and taught , who were persecuted by him . if he could have told how otherwise to have gotten this way out of their hearts , tongues , and lives , and consequently out of the world , then by molesting , vexing , and persecuting them , it is not like that he would have proceeded against them , with so rough and cruell an hand . it is said ( revel. . . ) that there was warre in heaven ; michael and his angels fought against the dragon ; and the dragon fought , and his angels . whether michael in this scripture be christ himself , ( as ancient interpreters generally carried it ) or some prime angel appointed by christ , to be as a generall or head to his saints and servants , in those warres and fiery conflicts , wherein they were for a long time engaged against satan , and his bloudy agents in the roman empire , ( as some later expositors conceive ) is not much materiall . but it is here expresly said , that the dragon and his angels , that is , the devill and his instruments , ignorant and bloud-thirsty-men , fought , viz. against michael and his angels , i. against christ himselfe in those appointed by him to hold forth the way and gospel of his kingdome unto the world . but why , or how are they said to have fought against christ ? what was their ingagement or attempt against him ? questionlesse nothing else but the extirpation and ejection of the doctrine and way of his gospel out of the world , by the torments , slaughter and ruine of those who professed them , and by this profession , gave them a speciall subsistence and beeing in the world . for that rule , doctrine , or way , which is not practised or professed in the world , languisheth , and is little better then dead . i adde but one scripture more , and then i have done with the proofe of the point , in this kind . then cometh the end ( saith the apostle , cor. . . ) when he ( i. christ ) shall have delivered up the kingdome to god even the father , when he shall have put downe all rule , and all authoritie and power . why the end should not be , untill christ hath put downe all rule , and all authoritie and power , i. all kinds of rule , authoritie and power ; this reason is rendred , ver. . for he must reigne , till he hath put all enemies under his feet . i demand , why should all rule , all authoritie and power , as well ecclesiasticall as civill , be looked upon , as enemies unto christ ? what is the enmity or hostilitie they exercise against him ? doubtlesse no lawfull rule , authoritie , or power , are enemies to christ , either in their nature or institution , but are confederate with him . it is their degeneration in their exercise and actings , that renders them of an hostile interpretation to him . there is none of them all but is apt ever and anon to be fighting against him , and that by some peremptory and stiffe opposing and suppressing some way , doctrine , or practise of his , where they have to doe . and this is the quarrell which the lord christ hath to the whole fraternitie or association of them ; for this he counts them his enemies . the reasons of the point , which we shall briefly touch , are three : first , he that attempts or seeks by an high hand to suppress any doctrine , way or practice which is from god , may well be conceived and said to fight against god , because he opposeth , and that with vehemence and might , the will of god , and that in a very considerable act , motion , or desire of it . there is no way , doctrine , or practice , which is from god , but his will stands strongly bent for the propagation and spreading of it in the world . i am come ( saith christ ) to send ( or , cast ) fire on the earth : and what will i , ( or , what is my desire , as the former translation had it ) if it be already kindled ? meaning , that his desire to see the gospel on foot , to see it well taken , and sufficiently rooted in the world , was so great , that when he once saw it , he cared not how soon he left the world . so luke . . and he said unto them , with desire have i desired to eat this passeover with you , before i suffer : meaning that he even longed to erect and found that great ordinance of the supper , for the use and benefit of the world in after times , before he left the world . many other scriptures there are that speak this over and over , viz. that the heart and soul of god are firmly and deeply set within him , to have such wayes , doctrines and ordinances as come from him , published , maintained , preached , and held forth unto the world . therefore they who ingage themselves with all their strength , and all their might , to resist this will of his in the accomplishment of it , what do they else but fight against him ? secondly , hee that magnifies himself to suppresse , quash , or keep down any way , practice or counsell which is from god , proportionably opposeth the glory of god , and doth what in him lies , to keep god from being magnified in the hearts and lives of men , at least as far as that way , practice or counsell which hee seeks to suppress , tends to such a magnification of him . and will this , being weighed in the ballance of the sanctuary , be found any whit lighter , then a fighting against god ? certain it is , that god hath ( as it were ) a stock of glory in the hand of every way , doctrine and practice , which he recommends unto the world ; yea , in all and every of these , he hath a peculiar designe for the exaltation of his name . the beauty of the lord is said to be seen , or to be beheld in the wayes and ordinances of his house , or temple . psal. . . there is no way or truth of god , but carries an impression in it of some lineament or other of the glory and loveliness of his face . so again , psal. . the prophet having ( ver. . ) petitioned that at the hand of god , which ( ver. . ) might make his way to be known on earth , &c. he breaks out ( ver. . ) in this propheticall strain , let the people praise thee , o god , let all the people praise thee ; clearly implying , that the way of god being published , and made known to the world , is that which increaseth the revenues of the throne of heaven , raiseth and procureth new contributions of praise and glory from men unto god . so then he that shall rise up to oppose the god of heaven in any of those methods , counsels or projections of his , whereby he projects the exaltation and advancement of his own great name and glory in the world , may in as proper a sense , as the phrase lightly will bear , be said to fight against god ; especially , if we consider but this one thing further : that gods glory is his darling , his unica , his only one , ( as david cal'd his life , eripe à gladio animam meam , a cane unicam meam , ps. . . ) it is the only life which he lives in the world ; it is the only apple that his soul careth to eat of , out of that great orchard which he hath planted ( i mean the world . ) therefore doubtless , he that shall oppose him in his gathering of this fruit , hath the greater sin . thirdly , ( and lastly ) there is in every thing that proceeds or derives its originall or being from another , somewhat of the nature , property , or spirit of that , from which it takes this rise or spring of its being : there is somewhat of the father in the childe , of the root in the fruit and in the branches , &c. in like manner , in every way , doctrine or practice which is from god , there is somewhat of god himself . the very substance , frame and constitution of them , at least that which is operative , quickning and spirituall in them , what is it but a kinde of heavenly composition , the ingredients whereof are the holiness , wisdome , mercy , goodness and bounty of god ? and what are these , and every of them , but god himself ? every ordinance or way of god , is ( as it were ) a benigne constellation of these stars unto the world ; out of the midst of which he gives a gracious aspect of himself , and communicates those sweet and rich influences of himselfe , light , and life , and strength , and peace , and joy , unto the world . it is said , ( king. . . ) that the lord neither was in the strong wind that rent the mountains , nor yet in the earthquake that followed it , nor in the fire that came after that ; but after these there came a still voyce , wherein it is implied , that the lord was . the meaning is , that god had neither prepared or intended , either the wind , earthquake or fire , by , or out of which to impart himself unto his prophet elijah ; he had only prepared and sanctified the still and soft voyce for such a purpose as this ; and therefore he is expresly denyed to have been in any other , and consequently supposed to have been in this . in such a sense or manner as god was in this still voyce , he is in every way , doctrine , and ordinance of his ; in , by , and out of all and every of these , he communicates and imparts himself graciously unto the world . therefore whosoever shall fight against any of these , by seeking to supplant , suppress , or keep them down , that they may not run and be glorified in the world , what do they else , let this work and course of theirs be truly interpreted , but fight against god himself ? we have done with the reasons of the doctrine ; we shall conclude with somewhat by way of use and application . first , by way of instruction : if to attempt the suppression or keeping down , any way , doctrine , or practice which is from god , be of no less concernment , of no safer interprepation , then a fighting against god , then certainly it is the greatest imprudence or improvidence under heaven , for any man , or rank of men whatsoever , to appear , especially in any hgh-handed opposition or contestation against any way , doctrine , or practice whatsoever , untill they have proof upon proof , demonstration upon demonstration , evidence upon evidence ; yea , all the security that men in an ordinary way ( at least ) are capable of , that such wayes or doctrines only pretend unto god as the author of them , and that in truth , they are not at all from him , but either from men , or of a baser parentage . for what do men by such a practice and ingagement of themselves as this , but run an apparent hazard , of dashing their foot against that stone , at which paul stumbled , ( when time was ) yea , and without the highest hand of mercy that was ever lift up to save a mortall man , had been utterly broken to pieces by it ? it is a hard thing for thee ( saith the lord by a voyce from heaven to him ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to kick or dash thy self against sharp goads or nails , made of steele or iron , ( for so the word signifies ) meaning that his undertaking or setting himselfe with such violence , to suppresse that way which christ had a purpose to advance and set up in the world , was an enterprise of the sorest and most grievous consequence and portendance to him , in the nature of it , that ever he could have lift up either heart , or head , or hand unto . vho ever hath been fierce against him ( saith job , speaking of god ) and hath prospered ? job . . he that is fierce against any way or doctrine which is from god , makes a covenant with sorrow and trouble , which is like to stand . and ( to make the best of such a doubtfull and blind ingagement ) put the case that that way or doctrine , which men shall prosecute with so much violence and fiercenesse of spirit , shall in conclusion be found to have been mistaken , erroneous , and not from god : yet ● . in this case men shall but offer the sacrifice of fooles , a kinde of sacrifice , wherewith god is not delighted . the athenians worshipped the true god , as appeares by those words of the apostle unto them , act. . . whom yee then ignorantly worship , him s●ew i unto you ; and yet were idolaters notwithstanding . the same apostle beares record unto his country-men the jewes , that they had the zeale of god ; but this zeale of theirs not being according to knowledge , in the prosecution of it , they neither pleased god , and were contrary to all men , forbidding the apostles to preach unto the gentiles , that they might be saved , to fulfill their sins alwayes ; because wrath was come upon them to the uttermost , thes. . , . the beast under the law , though it were a first-borne , yet was not to be sanctified or offered unto the lord , if it were either lame , or blind , deut. . . . nor was any man , though of aarons seed , admitted to serve at the altar , that had any blemish or imperfection of blindnesse on him , levit. . , . god regards no mans zeale without knowledge , though it should pitch and fasten upon things , never so agreeable unto his will : nor doth he care that his enemies themselves should be destroyed , but upon lawfull triall and conviction . secondly , whatsoever doctrine or way is recommended and tendered unto men in the name of god , whether either the one or the other be from god or no , yet he expects from men ( as well he may ) that reverence and regard unto that great name of his , wherein such things are brought and tendered unto them , that they should be diligently considered , and due proofe and examination made , whether they be from him , or no , before they be rejected , and much more before opposed . and certainly men doe but pollute and prophane that ever-blessed name of god , by making refuse , yea abomination ( as many doe ) of such things as are brought unto them in that name , before they know upon any considerable grounds or terms of knowledge , whether the things be indeed from god , or no ; yea , though the things thus rejected should at last be found worthy of no better entertainment , as having no agreement with god , or his word . the event or issue in this case , though it should fall out to the best for such men , will very little case or qualifie their sin . shall not that wicked tyrant and enemy of god , eglon , rise up in judgement , and condemne that generation of men we now speak of , who , when ehud onely signified that he had a message from god unto him , did not presently reject the message before he knew it , or fall foule upon the messenger , but ( as the text saith , judg. . . ) arose up from his throne , addressing himselfe in that deportment of reverence to receive it ? thirdly , ( and lastly ) it is extreme madnesse in men to run the hazard we speake of , i meane of fighting against god , in seeking to suppresse such waies or courses as they are not able to demonstrate , but that they are waies of god indeed , because , in case they be not the waies of god , he himselfe will give testimony from heaven against them in due time , he will suppresse and scatter them , and bring them to nought : and then there will be no danger for men to reject and abhorre them . dearly beloved ( saith the apostle , rom. . . ) avenge not your selves , but give place unto wrath , i. unto the wrath of god , whose just avenging hand is lift up against those that wrong you , and deale unjustly with you , and is ready to smite for your sakes ; as it followeth : for it is written , vengeance is mine : i will repay , saith the lord . it were great folly in any man , to expose himselfe to the just offence and displeasure of god , by seeking to right himselfe in an angry and revengefull manner upon him , whom he certainly knows hath injur'd him , god himselfe being ready with his stroke of justice to do him right , and to avenge him on his adversary , though he himselfe should be patient and ●it still . but it would be a point yet of seven-times greater folly then so , for a man to fall foule in a way of revenge upon an imaginary adversary , and who ( at most ) can onely be supposed or suspected to have done him wrong , considering that god who is an infallible discerner and judge of injuries and wrongs , and withall a just avenger of all such things , will shortly appeare for his full vindication , in case he hath been wronged indeed . nor hath any man cause in this case to feare , lest whilst the grasse grows , the s●eed should starve , ( as the proverb is ) i meane , that the person injured , whether really or in supposition onely , should suffer losse , by possessing his soule in patience , untill the day of divine recompence and vengeance shall come . for god certainly will give full and ample consideration for all forbearance and long-suffering of men , wherein and whereby the rights of his throne are tendered and maintained . it were no lesse then an exaltation of folly in any man , to expose his own life to the stroke of justice , by assaulting the life of a malefactor whilst he is going to execution . againe , secondly , ( by way of instruction ) if to attempt the destruction or suppression of any doctrine , or way , which is from god in so high and peremptory a manner , as was formerly expressed , be a fighting against god , take we knowledge from hence also , what ●in by name in all likelihood ( at least ) and with highest pregnancy of conjecture , it is , which ever and anon thus separates between god and us , which still troubles our proceedings , and makes the sun of our peace to goe so often backwards in the heavens thereof . is there not a fighting against god amongst us , as well as a fighting for him ? and doe we not pull downe by the one , what we build up by the other ? are not the hearts , and the heads , and the hands of farre the greatest part of men amongst us , ingaged , and that to the highest of all bitternesse , hatred , and enmity , against that way of ordering the things of god's worship , and of governing his churches and saints , which hath been , and still is held forth in his name unto this nation , by some embassadors and messengers of his of a very choice anoynting , and indued with strength from on high , ( many of them ) as it were on purpose to stand by some such way or counsell of god , untill it had throughly taken the hearts , and judgements , and consciences of men ; besides many thousands more , and those ( for the most part ) of the best and choicest servants of god amongst us ? is not this way blasphemed and spoken against ; yea , is not the destruction and ruine of it , with the grinding of the faces and breaking of the bones , with the suppression and crushing of those that hold it forth unto us , consulted , studied , and attempted by some that would be thought pillars and prime men in the house and temple of god ? and have they not a great vote of the generality of people , who know little of god , or his wayes , concurring with them , to strengthen their hand herein ? may we not say of this way , as the jews sometimes said unto paul , concerning the doctrine of christ which he preached , with those that professed it ; we know that this sect is every where spoken against ? act. . . so then in case it ever shall appeare , or be found to be a way of god , we are in a praemunire for the present , and have forfeited our peace , help and comfort in god , as touching deliverance from our present dangers and miseries , by this our fighting against him . i presume you will all readily acknowledge and confesse , that if there be such a sin ruling and ●aigning amongst us , as fighting against god , this of all other is like to be the achan , the troubler of our israel ; that betrays our armies , our faithfull and valiant men into the hands of their and our enemies , and that makes us ever and anon , retrograde in our motions and tendencies towards rest and peace . whoever hath hardened himself against him ( saith job , as wee heard before ) and prospered ? if this be but granted , it is enough to demonstrate our case and condition to be very dangerous and doubtfull ▪ at the best : for whether that way we speak of , which is so generally troden and trampled upon like clay and mire in the streets , as well by the foot of ignorance and prophanenesse , as of learning and better accomplishment , be the way of god , or no ; most certain it is , that all the wit , wisdome , parts , learning , judgement , that have encountered and opposed it hitherto , have not been able by any demonstrative or concluding proofe , to overthrow that title or claim which it maketh unto god as the author and founder of it . therefore unto me it is a thing of the saddest consideration under heaven , and of more grievous portendance unto us , then any thing else , ( as far as i am able to discern ) that we should hang the great weight of the peace and safety of a whole nation , all our hopes and expectations of help and assistance from god in our greatest extremities , upon the brittle pin of so doubtfull a disputation , as that which is maintained , and yet depending , between the one way and the other . for in case that way against which the spirits of men are so generally and fiercely bent , shall at last be found to be the way of god , we are all this while look'd upon from heaven as fighters against god , and so have as good as given hostages to our enemies , that we never mean to prosper , or do any great thing against them . whereas , if men would but follow gamaliels counsell in the text , and refrain themselves for a season from laying either violent hands , or tongues upon this way , untill god had either untied or cut the knot , till he had given sentence against it , the doubtfulnesse of the disputation , need not , would not be prejudiciall in the least , either to our present proceedings , or future peace : and men do but make themselves wise above that which is written ; yea , above that which is either reason or faith , to think , or speak otherwise . if it be objected , that reformation suffers and loseth time , because that way is not yet hedgd up with thorns , but men are suffered to walk in it . i answer , first , if the way be one of those wayes which call god father ; reformation indeed suffers , and loseth time , but not because this way is not hedg'd up with thorns , but because it is not laid more open , because it is not repaired and made more passable by the favour and countenance of men in place , whether ministers or others ; that so the people of god , whose hearts are towards it , may walk therein without fear . . that reformation ( so called ) which is the apple of so many eyes , and the joy of so many hearts , needs suffer nothing , nor lose an hours time , though the way we speak of , be occupied in peace by those , whose feet by the light of gods word and spirit ( at least as they conceive ) are guided into it . for what doth the poor flie sitting on the top of the wheele to hinder the waggoner from driving on his way ? if the residue of the nation be subjected to this reformation , the nation it self may be said to be reformed ( according to such a denomination , as this reformation will afford ) notwithstanding such a number of persons ( comparatively so inconsiderable , i mean as touching their * number ) as adhere to this way , be not concluded in it . during the regency of prelaticall extravagancy , there were many non-conformists ; yea , severall congregations of people in the land , who openly disclaimed and protested against that government ; and yet the nation was look'd upon as episcopally reformed , notwithstanding . the irregularity of the mountains and valleys in the surface of the earth , troubles no mans opinion concerning the perfect roundnesse of it , because it is swallowed up into victory by the vastnesse of the globe . john saith ▪ that this whole world lyeth in wickednesse , notwithstanding a remnant who were born of god . the gleanings of independency ( so called ) will not hinder the vintage of presbytery . . if a complete nationall reformation be indeed the garland or crown that is contended for , let but presbyterie bestir her self , and act her part within her jurisdiction , with as much diligence , wisdome and faithfulness , as the congregationall way will undertake to act hers amongst her proselytes ; and there will not be the least occasion to fear , but that the whole and entire body of the nation will shine with the beauty and lustre of a perfect reformation . if this way shall be found tardy , or loose , and not to keep pace with her sister in carrying on the work of reformation , even her enemies themselves being judges , let her suffer ; yea , let her with her children be cast out of doors . therefore it is but a frivolous and putid slander cast upon her , when she is charged with enmity to reformation : but , . ( and lastly ) i would gladly know , what , or what manner of reformation can reasonably be expected , or hoped for , without her . such a reformation , as that whereby that angel of darknesse , satan is reformed , when he is transformed into an angel of light ( as the apostle speaketh ) is no reformation of desires : open loosenesse and prophaneness reformed into pharasaicall hypocrisie , brings in little to religion . for what saith our saviour of such a reformation as this ? verily i say unto you , that publicans and harlots go before you into the kingdom of god . if then such a reformation as this should take place , it is much to be feared , that when the genealogie of it shall be sought , it will be found to be of the house and linage of that reformation , which the scribes and pharisees attempted in the world , when they compassed sea and land to make one proselyte ; and when he was made , they made him twofold more a child of hell , then he was before ; yea , then they were themselves ; or , what is the reformation , wherein the way we speak of , cannot be admitted to have either part or fellowship ? will it take the members of an harlot , and make them the members of christ , whether either christ or such members themselves , will or no ? or will it undertake to reconcile darkness with light , to settle a communion betwixt christ and belial , to throw down the partition wall , and make the wildernesse of the world the garden of god , the church and the world , enter-commoners ? or what is the glory or greatnesse of the design of it , that the congregationall way is counted unworthy to be so much as a stander by , and to behold it ? will it lift up its hand , to quash and crush , to break the hearts and bones of the one half of the most religiously affected , and best conscienced people in the land , for trading in apes and peacocks , for holding some erroneous opinions ( perhaps erroneously so called ) as if it self were the lord of infallibility , and had a non posse errare settled by god , as an inheritance upon it ? i professe ingenuously , that when i put my self into a posture of the greatest indulgency i am able , to consider of the reformation so much spoken of , and even conflict with my spirit to forme and cast the possible effects and fruits of it to the greatest advantage , i am not able to apprehend any thing desireable likely to come of it , either in respect of a civill , or religious accommodarion unto the nation , above what might be expected , and that upon terms of a far more promising hope , from the other way which indureth so much contradiction from men . but i apparently foresee many inconveniences , and those not of a light or contemptible importance likely to attend it , for which no place would be found in the other way . particularly , it is to mee instead of all arguments and demonstrations , that no reformation is according to the mind of god and of jesus christ , which is destructive to the edification of the saints , and directly impeding their growth in grace , and in the knowledge of the lord jesus christ . and whether such a reformation ( if yet it be lawfull so to call it ) which injoynes the saints to sit under , and hold themselves to such pastors , with whom their hearts cannot close in that relation with any tolerable satisfaction , nor yet are capable of his ministery , or any edification by it , be not under that condemnation , i leave to men that have not sold themselves under partiality , to judge and determine . if it be said , but men shall have liberty to choose what pastor they please , and to sit under what ministery they desire , if they will but choose their dwellings accordingly . i answer : . there may be ( and i believe are ) many of a rich anoynting from god for the work of the ministery , and much desired by a considerable number of godly persons , in pastorall relation , who must say their consciences nay , to accept of a parochiall charge . in this case the change of a mans house will do nothing towards the blessing of his soul ; if such a reformation , as most mens thoughts run upon , should be established . . all the dwellings within the parochiall line , relating to the pastor that is desired , may be fill'd with inhabitants already ; and so there is no place , or possibility ( at least for the present ) for him whose soul longeth after that pastor , to injoy him : and when , or whether ever whilest he liveth , the door now shut against him will be open , no man knoweth . . many times the situation and conveniency of a mans present dwelling for trade , imployment , &c. is such , that he cannot remove , but at the perill of his estate , and ruining himself and his whole family . and how they , who shall compell men , either to sacrifice their peace , comfort , and subsistenc 〈…〉 this present world , or else run the hazard of losing a subsistence in that which is to come , will answer it either before the righteous god , or reasonable men , is above my apprehension . . this liberty of choosing pastors only by choosing houses , is so conditioned , that it smiles only upon the rich , ( and that but somewhat faintly neither ) but frowns upon the poor ; and so is partiall , and therefore not christian . he that hath enough of that , which ( as solomon saith ) answers all things , may probably be able to accommodate himself within the precincts of what parish he pleaseth , in point of dwelling ; as either by buying out some inhabitant , or by purchasing ground , and building upon it , or the like ; but the case of the poor man is many times such , that he cannot tell where to finde another hole in all the world to hide his head in , besides that wherein it is hid already . so that this liberty of choosing a pastor , being nothing else , if plainly interpreted , but only a liberty of choosing such or such a parish determinately to dwell in , is little better then a meer collusion , in respect of those that are poor , and ( indeed ) rather an upbraiding of them with their poverty , then any gratification of them with a liberty . . ( and lastly ) such a liberty as this we now speak of ▪ were it more valueable then it is , is no gratuity , benefit or blessing of that reformation so importunely demanded and pressed for by many , being nothing else , but what was every mans permission and enjoyment under the iron rod of episcopall tyranny . i am more beholding to every man that comes neer me , for not taking away my life , then i am to any reformation whatsoever , for giving me liberty to choose my pastor upon such terms . this for answer in full to that undue charge against the congregationall way , wherein it was attainded of inconsistency with , and enmity against reformation . a second objection levied against it , and all sufferance of it , by those that are adversaries to it , is , that if it be permitted quietly to walk up and down amongst us , and not be suppressed , it will soon make the land unquiet , fill the land with troubles , t●mults , divisions , distractions , dissentions , discontents , confusions , in city , in countrey , in relations , in families , and where not ? to this also i answer . . that perempt 〈…〉 ness and height of confidence in an accuser , is no signe at all of reality or truth in the accusation . wee know ( say the jews , concerning christ ) that this man is a sinner , joh. . . and again , joh. . . say wee not well , that thou art a samaritan , and hast a devill ? and yet for all their knowledge , and confidence of well-speaking , the lord christ was never the more either a sinner , or a samaritan , or had a devill . the way we speak of , is never the neerer the guilt of those things that are charged upon it , because her accusers bewray so little tendernesse or ●esitancy in drawing up their charge . . nor is the tragicall dresse or pointed stile of an accusation any demonstrative proof of a guilt commensurable thereunto ; no , nor yet of any proportion or degree of guilt at all . want of crime and delinquency , either in things or persons , which are accused ▪ many times makes a greater noyse in the accusation , then a reality or fulnesse of guilt would do . innocency ●ath beg●tten the rankest and fiercest accusations that ever were managed by the tongues or pens of men . thou lovest all devouring words ( said david ) o tho● deceitfull ( or , false ) tongue . they that accuse either upon knowledge or fear of little or no guilt in the accused , still labour to lay on accusation enough , lest nothing otherwise should be believed by the judge . that mount of accusation which is raised so high against the way we now maintain , doth not at all prove that there is any thing in it that deserves battery . . there is no substantiall reason at all can be given , why this way should occasion troubles , divisions , discontents , or the like , above the rate of that other way , which so much magnifies it self against it ; except ( haply ) this , that it hath more of god and christ in it , then that other : and then it is no marvell if it be more offensive , and troublesome to the world . but suppose both equally interessed in this , i affirm and undertake to demonstrate , that in the nature , frame , and constitution of it otherwise , it is every whit as gentle , sweet , complying and accommodating , and no whit more threatning or portending troubles or distractions , then the other ; yea , that in all such considerations as these , it hath the preheminence : for , . it seeketh not , it attempteth not the molestation , harm , or disturbance of any sort of men that are contrary-minded to it ; it thinketh no evill , it speaketh no evill of such : if it conceives them upright and faithfull with god and jesus christ , it imbraceth them with all love , tendernesse and honour , as partakers of like precious faith with it self ; and nothing doubts , but that they serve and worship god with as much sincerity and singlenesse of heart , and are accordingly accepted by him in their way , as it self . . if god should please to give it favour in the eyes , and interest in the hearts of the powers of this world , it thinks it very un-christian and unworthy , to arm it self with this interest , to fight against the peace of the consciences of other men . if any of this way have miscarried in any of these particulars , they have done it as men , and not as children of this way ; the principles of their way taught them better things . and why , or how a way , baptized into no worse , or harder spirit then this , should come to be arraigned , as a troubler of state , or strife-maker , a dissention-breeder amongst men , except it be by a spirit of contention and strife indeed , is to me a thing incomprehensible . neverthelesse it is no new thing , that both the wayes and servants of god should be charged with such crimes and demerits , not only whereof they are wholly innocent and free , but which have a speciall contrariety to some such grace or vertue , wherein they have a remarkable and choyce preheminence above others . thus joseph , the great mirrour of chastity , was accused of adultery , gen. . moses , the meekest man upon earth , of ambition , and self-assuming , numb. . elijah of being the troubler of israel , king. . who was the chariot and horse-men of israel , to defend it : king. . the lord christ himself , in whom the godhead dwelt bodily , of having a devill , joh. . and so of being an enemy unto cesar , when as it was , and is he , by whom kings reign ; with many the like . therefore however it may seem strange that a way of god , which is eminently set , strongly bent , and ( in a manner ) every wayes calculated for peace , should suffer in the tongues and thoughts of men as a disturber of states , and sower of dissentions amongst men , yet is there nothing in this , but what hath been acted , and that over and over upon the theatre of the world formerly . if it be here replied and said ; yea , but experience riseth up , and confirms the truth of that accusation and charge against the way you speak of , which you would wipe off ; this shewes and proves against all deniall and exception , that where your way is entertained , congregations are torn , families rent , relations distanced and divided , &c. i answer , first , that aristotle long since observed , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , was a very frequent paralogisme or mistake amongst men , nothing is more ordinary then for men to range consequents and effects under one & the same notion , especially where the disproportion of causality is not very notorious and broad . a man in reason can hardly think , that any man , compos mentis , ( as we use to say ) should be so defective or weak in his inellectualls , as to think that the building of tenderton steeple , should be the cause of godwins sands , only because these sands were never known to be before the building of that steeple ; yet old mr. latimer relates the story in one of his sermrns , and improves it to very good purpose : by such a form of arguing as this , judas his betraying his master , should have been the effect of the womans powring out that box of oyntment upon his head , mentioned , mat. . . for he never betrayed him untill this oyntment was powred out upon him ; and immediately after , he did . the way we speak of , is never the more any cause of troubles , dissentions , or divisions , because troubles , dissentions and divisions , many times follow upon the embracement and entertainment of it . . if troubles or divisions were the proper effects of this way , then the more , and more generally it were taken up and practised in a familie , citie , or countrey , the more troubles and divisions there would be . effects are still found in proportion to their causes , where nothing interposeth to hinder it . but where it is generally assented and submitted unto , whether in families , relations , or otherwise , there is as much unitie , love , and peace , ( as touching matter of government ) as where presbyterie hath its highest throne . therefore the reason why troubles and divisions sometimes accompany it , is not because it is intertained , but because it is not intertained sufficiently , or with that generalitie of consent , which is desireable . . when troubles and divisions are occasioned in relations , families , congregations , &c. by the meeting together of two opposite wayes , why should the one way be still burthened and charged with the occasion of such troubles , and the other acquitted , there being no ground or reason at all , why either that which is acquitted , should be judged more innocent ; or that which is charged , more obnoxious or peccant , in this kind . nay , . if matters were duly and fairely examined between the two combatants in this case , the way wee plead for , would be found via lactea , the candid , harmlesse , and peaceable way : and her corrivall or competitresse , via sanguinea , the trouble and strife-making way . onely by pride ( saith solomon ) cometh contention . surely that way which commandeth homage and subjection unto her from all her fellowes , and threatens to breake them all in pieces like a potters vessell with a rod of iron , if they will not bow , and deny themselves for her sake , is the way of pride , and so of contention , ( according to solomons logique ) not that which is gentle , and easie to be entreated by all others , claiming no superioritie or jurisdiction over any . if there be any clashing or unkindnesse between the two wayes , independency ( so called ) and presbyterie , when they meet together , either in a relation , familie , &c. the very complexion of the latter bewrayes that to be still the foundresse of the quarrell . to me it is a wonder of the first magnitude , how men come to have so much ground of hope as to set their foot upon , of composing differences and distractions , of setling peace and love throughout the nation , by exalting one way of discipline , of church-government , for the treading downe and trampling under foot all others . if ephraim be against manasseh , is it any wayes like but that manasseh will be against ephraim ? and god himselfe prophecying of ishmael , told his mother , that he would be a wild man : and that his hand should be against every man ; and every mans hand against him . undoubtedly that way , whose hand shall be against every way , will find that the hand of every way will be against it : and then what manner of peace can reasonably be expected under the predominancy of such a way ? that way which shall be able to out-reason , not that which shall out-clubbe , all other wayes , will at last exalt unitie , and be it selfe exalted by gathering in all other wayes unto it . solomon tells us , that all that is taken in hunting , is not alwayes roasted ; and that an inheritance may be hastily gotten , and yet the end thereof not be blessed : and the prophet habakk 〈…〉 denounceth a woe against him that shall build a towne with bloud . but , . i would gladly know what the plaintiffe in the objection means , by distractions , rents , divisions , in relations , families , congregations , &c. if he means onely this , that the father goes to heare one minister in one place , and the son another minister , in another , and that some within the same parochiall line goe to this minister , or are members of this church , others to another minister , and are members of another church , and the like , &c. i answer , that in this case , i know no more occasion , ( at least no more necessitie ) of any distraction , rent , or division , then when the father being free of one company , as suppose of merchant-taylors , shall still upon occasion of the meeting of this company , repaire to the hall belonging to it ; and the son being free of another , as perhaps of the company of grocers , shall upon the like occasion repaire to the hall appertaining to them . who knows not that the members of all the severall companies in london , dwell scatteringly and promiscuously up and downe the citie , with the greatest irregularitie of intermixture that lightly can be , and without any observation of their relations to their respective companies , sundry members of twenty severall companies ( it may be ) inhabiting within one and the same parish ; and yet without any complaint or inconvenience of rents , distractions , or divisions ? or if by rents , distractions , and divisions , he means distances or alienations in affections ; nor can these with any face of reason be charged upon that way , whose cause we plead ; because it is a maine principle and maxime in this way , to hold terms of love and christian correspondence , with all persons of what judgement soever in point of government , if they be godly , as well as with her owne children ( as hath in effect been argued formerly . ) but in this case the roman proverb ( it seems ) must be verified ; aemilius fecit , plectitur rutilius . or . ( and lastly ) if by rents , distractions , & ● . he means , the shaking or troubling of mens judgements , raising doubts or scruples in mens consciences concerning the way they went peaceably in before : i answer , . that if they were built upon sure and cleere foundations in their former way , there is not the least ground or reason why they should be troubled or shaken in their judgements , because they see another way acted and practised by others : or . if they were but at peradventure in their former way , and it was not the knowledge , but the ignorance of the truth , that both put them into it and kept them in it , they have no cause to complaine of being awakened out of so sinfull and dangerous a sleep , though it were never so sweet and pleasing to them . but , . ( and lastly ) s 〈…〉 pose that all which the objection chargeth upon the way we speake for , be granted for truth , that where this way comes and is entertained , congregations are torne ▪ families rent , relations distanced , &c. yet this maketh much more for it , then against it ; because such figures and characters as these , are the knowne impressions of the gospel upon the world , where it comes in power , and is entertained in truth . thinke yee ( saith our saviour ) that i am come to give peace on earth ? i tell you , nay , but rather debate . for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided , three against two , and two against three . the father shall be divided against the son , and the son against the father : the mother against the daughter , and the daughter against the mother : the mother in law against her daughter in law , and the daughter in law against her mother in law . nor is it to be conceived that these divisions in relations and families , foretold by christ as the common and ordinary effects and consequents of the gospel ( for in different respects they may be either ) are to be limited onely to such either relations or families , wherein the ground or occasion of the division should be , the receiving of the gospel in the maine truth and substance of it by the one partie , the other partie absolutely rejecting it , as if they were onely to take place in such cases as this ; but they are to be extended to such both families and relations also , where some particular and speciall points or truths of the gospel are intertained by one partie , and rejected by another , though both agree as well in the beliefe , as in the profession of the gospel in the generall . experience shews that rents & divisions take place in both , as well , yea , and that with as much heate and distemper of affection , in the latter case and upon the latter occasion , as in the former . now if the question in this latter case be , whether the occasion of the division be rather to be imputed to the truth held and practised by the one partie , or to the error held and practised in opposition to the truth , by the other : the answer is , that where all were before bound up in unitie and peace , by a common band of error , there the occasion of the division must needs be imputed unto the truth comming amongst them . therefore were it granted , that the way so much contested against , did indeed occasion , rents , divisions , distractions , in relations , in families , in congregations where it comes , this would rather turne unto it for a testimony , and assert its originall from god , then otherwise : the gospel 〈…〉 elfe works no otherwise then thus , where it is preached and intertained . and as aristotle supposeth , that in case any piece or fragment were broken off from the maine body of the heavens , it would move circularly , according to the naturall motion of the maine body ; in like manner any particular opinion or practise which moves , acts , and works , according to the manner and tenor of that motion , acting , and working , which are genuine and proper to the gospel , is so much the more likely to be a parcell or branch of the gospel : but however , such a moving , acting , and working as this , can with no semblance or colour of reason , be drawn into any contrary interpretation , or be made an argument of the nonconformitie of it unto the truth . a third objection against that way whose condemnation out-runs her triall day and way , in the world , is ; that it opens a doore to all errors , heresies , and unsound opinions , yea to all loosenesse and prophanenesse , and consequently it cannot but be a thing displeasing unto god , and so prejudiciall to the peace and safetie of the nation , if it should be tolerated , or practised amongst us . but to these things also full and clear answers are not wanting . for , first , it being certain that error cannot be healed or suppressed but by the manifestation of the truth , as darknesse cannot be destroyed or removed but by the shining of the light ; that way which affords the greatest advantages and the best incouragements unto men , both for the searching out ▪ and bringing forth into light the truth being found , must needs be so farre from opening doores unto errors , heresies , unsound opinions , &c. that it steers the mo●● advantagious and hopefull course that lightly can be taken , for the evicting , and consequently for the suppression of them . i need not adde , that it is the congregationall way ( and this onely amongst all its fellows ) that rejoyecth in the method of this warfare and advance against those enemies of god , and religion , errors and heresies . and , secondly , for the way sir-named presbyterian , which conjures all mens gifts , parts , and industrie into a synodicall circle , and suffers ▪ them onely to dance there , as it may possibly shut the doores against some errors and heresies , which were not like to stay long , in case they should enter under the other way ; so it is in every whit as much possibilitie and danger , of shutting the doore upon , and compelling such errors and heresies as are alreadie gotten in , and otherwise have a mind to be gone , to stay it , and so to infest and annoy the truth , and peace of the churches of christ , against their wils . but , thirdly , i would gladly learn of the sons of this objection , how , which way , or in what respect the way so much objected against , commits this folly-deed of opening a doore unto errors and heresies . certain i am , first , that this way hates both the one and the other with as perfect an b●tred , as her competitresse doth . secondly , i fully beleeve , that this way is as diligent , faithfull , and industrious to slay these enemies of christ by the sword of the spirit , ( which is in speciall manner consecrated for such executions ) as the other way . thirdly , if the error be dangerous , amounting to , or neer an heresie , after two or three admonitions ( that is , according to her warrant from heaven ) she casts it out of the line of her communication , unto him who cast it in ( i mean , satan . ) if to hate errors and heresies , to preach with all diligence and faithfulnesse against errors and heresies , to excommunicate errors and heresies , be to open a doore unto error and heresies , then must the adversaries of the way whereof we speak , be justified in their accusation of her : otherwise they speak at the utmost perill of their reputations , when they lay such things to her charge . if it be here replyed and said ; yea , but all this notwithstanding , the w●y you plead for , is but feeble-handed , for the suppression of errors and heresies ; because these , though hated , preach'd against , and cast out of the church by excommunication , may yet live and gather head again in the world , except error and errant be further restrained by a secular hand , and heresie and heretique put to silence together in the grave . and this , which is the most , if not the onely effectuall means to preserve the wheat from those tares , the way of your desires exerciseth not , nor yet approveth . i answer : first , we presume that prisons and swords are no church-officers , nor any appurtenances to any ecclesiastique authority in what form of government soever . secondly , we suppose that the lord christ so far tendered the spirituall safety and peace of his churches , as to leave them sufficiently furnished , and every wayes appointed with internall provision● , for the effectuall procurement and preservation of them , without any concurrence of any heterogeneall or externall power . especially considering , that he fore-saw , that these churches of his , for the space of three hundred yeers together , and somewhat more ( during which terme he knew likewise that they would continue in their greatest puritie , and perfection of love and loyaltie towards him ) were not like to have any accommodation at all in this kind from any secular or civill power . thirdly , though the churches of christ , during this period of time wherein they had no comportance with any secular arm for their preservation either in this or any other kind , were not wholly free from errors and heresies ; yet did they quit and defend themselves against the danger spreading and troublesomenesse of them upon better terms , and with farre better successe , then they were able to do afterwards , when they had an arme of flesh and a sword in it ▪ to assist them . note this . fourthly , if persons delivered up unto satan by the church , whether for error , heresie ▪ or other crime , were presently to be cut off by the secular sword , all opportunitie for the effectuall and saving work of that ordinance of christ upon the persons so delivered up , would be cut off also . the apostle , ▪ corinth . . . expresly affirms the end of excommunication or delivering up unto satan , to be the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord jesus . and tim. . . he ●aith , that he had delivered hymeneus and alexander unto satan , that they might learn not to blaspheme . now as naturall medicines and physicall receits , must have a time to work , before they can in an ordinarie course of providence produce their m●st proper and desired effects ; in like manner the ordinances and means which the lord christ hath graciously appointed for the everlasting salvation of the precious souls of men , must , according to the nature and condition of their respective workings , and the tenor of gods providence observed for the time of his falling in with them to make them effectuall , have their full and just allowance of time given and permitted unto them , to work upon men effectually . and whosoever shall limit or straiten the providence of god , in this kind , by any hasty or violent taking away a soul from under the influence and working of any ordinance of christ appointed for his salvation , before the blessed work of repentance be accomplished in him , will be arraigned before the tribunall of the living god , as accessarie to the blood of that ●oul , except he can shew a better warrant from god for such an action , then i know any . and god himself having no where prescribed or limited any determinate or set time , within which he intends to make the sentence of excommunication after the passing of it by the church , effectuall to the saving of the soul , or otherwise never to do it , i conceive it can be no lesse then an act of high presumption in any man to undertake any such prescription or limitation . as god by the voice of the gospel calls some at the third and sixth houre ; so he cals others at the ninth , and some at the eleventh houre : and why may he not work savingly , by the sentence of excommunication with as much libertie , and difference in respect of time ? and this sentence being the last and utmost means which god is like to afford a poore hardened , impenitent soul for the eternall peace and salvation of it , how can it but be conceived an act most unworthy of christian bowels , to cut him off from this also , whilst god is pleased to spare him ? if it be here objected and said , but if an heretique be suffered to live , he is in danger of infecting others , and destroying them eternally . i answer ▪ first , so is a drunkard , a fornicatour , a swearer , a covetous person , with the like ; the lives of all these kinds of sinners are of as dangerous a consequence in respect of infecting , yea and of destroying the souls of others , as the life of an heretique is : and yet no man ( i presume ) judgeth this a sufficient ground why such men should be punished with death . secondly , as for those that are within the church , they are not capable of any communion or commerce with an heretique that is cast out by excommunication , and so are not in danger of being infected by him : and for those that are without , these are infected already with a disease every whit as mortall , as any heresie , i mean unbelief . so that infection with heresie , will not much impaire the estates or conditions of these . thirdly , ( and lastly ) the truth is , that an heretique being dead ( especially if punished with death for his opinion sake ) speaketh in his surviving heresie with every whit as much authoritie , and consequently with every whit as much danger of infecting others therewith , as he could do if he were alive , if not with more . and so , fifthly , ( and lastly ) concerning other civill means for the suppression and restraint of those spirituall evils , errors , heresies , &c. as imprisonment , b●nishment , interdictions , finings , &c. both reason and experience concurre in this demonstration , that such fetters as these put upon the feet of errors and heresies to secure and keep them under , still have prov'd ( and are like to prove no other , but ) wings whereby they raise themselves the higher in the thoughts and minds of men , and gain an opportunitie of a further and ranker propagation of themselves in the world . it was an observation of tacitus long since , that punitis ingeniis gliscit authoritas ; to punish men of parts and wit , is to cast a spirit of authoritie upon them , and to make their reputation glowe . men of ordinarie capacitie , and vulgar apprehension , are and ever will be inclinable to think , that men of wisdome and worth will never expose themselves to sufferings , but for that which is weightie , and which hath more in it , then every man seeth . and besides , men of better breed , may easily be swayed by such a principle as this , that wise men , whilest they have the advantage and odds of their adversaries in reason , will never renounce or disclaim this so honourable an advantage by calling in the more ignoble assistance of horn and hoof to their aid . it is true , when christ was handled with this rough hand we speak of , that piece of prophecie was verified ; i will smite the shepherd , and the sheep shall be scattered ; but ordinarily the smiting of the shepherd or head of any sect or error , is the gathering together , yea the multiplication and increase , of his sheep . but fourthly ( to the main objection last propounded ) whereas the innocent way is condemned as opening a doore to all loosenesse and prophanenesse , she may justly take up davids complaint , and say , cruell witnesses did rise up : they laid to my charge things that i knew not . psal. . . the very truth is , that this way , above all her fellows , is so farre from holding any intelligence or correspondence with loosenesse and prophanenesse , that her face is set to advance righteousnesse and true holinesse in all her quarters . her heart runs parallel with davids heart in those his meditations and vows , psal. . , . &c. i will set ●o wicked thing before mine eyes : i hate the work of them that turn aside : it shall not cleave to me . i will not know a wicked person . who so privily slandereth his neighbour , him will i cut off : him that hath an high look and a proud heart , will i not suffer . mine eyes shall be upon the faithfull of the land , that they may dwell with me : he that walketh in a perfect way , shall serve me . he that worketh deceit , shall not dwell within my house : he that telleth lies shall not t●rrie in my sight . i will early destroy all the wicked of the land : that i may cut off all wicked doers from the citie of the lord . this is such a draught and copie of reformation as the way we speak of ( mutatis mutandis ) emulates , and aspires unto . if david in those resolutions and practises mentioned , opened a d●ore to loosenesse and prophanenesse , then cannot she excuse her self from part and fellowship with him , in that sin . if it be replyed and said ; but this way taketh care for none in point of holinesse , but her own : she suffereth all the world about her to lie in wickednesse , and to sleep in death , without looking after them , or taking any pitie or compassion on them . to this also we answer in one word : that she doth as tenderly , as affectionately desire and pray for , yea and with as much diligence and faithfulnesse , yea and prudence of endevour otherwise , and likelihood of successe , attempts and seeks the salvation of those that sit in darknesse and in the shadow of death , as any other way can do . it is true , she doth not judge it any wayes conducing towards the quickning of those that are dead in sins and trespasses , to put them into a conceit that they are living stones ( whilest they are yet dead ) by putting them into the building of the spirituall temple of god : she knows no such method or means of converting souls unto god , as this . nor doth she willingly suffer any man to ●at and drink damnation unto himself , to further him in his salvation . nor doth she make faith of apparent unbelief in parents , by baptizing their children , as any wayes accommodating the souls either of the one , or of the other . therefore if she declines such things as these , it cannot be argued from hence ( except either ignorance , or a worse logician , makes the syllogis●e ) that therefore she neglects or casts off all care of seeking the salvation of others ; but onely this , that she thinks it no point either of wisdome or charity to expose her self to the displeasure of god by doing that , which is more like to expose others also to the same stroke , then any wayes to comfort or relieve them . but whatsoever she can reasonably conceive or judge to be a means any wayes likely to save a soul from death , to translate men from darknesse unto life , she girds her self to minister unto the world both farre and neer , in every such thing : she cordially prayes for the conversion of the unconverted , she mourns over them , she causes her light to shine before them , she bears their burthens , she intreats them gently , she feeds their hungry , and cloatheth their naked ( as she is able ) she recompenceth evill for evill unto none of them , with all such exemplatities of life and conversation , which are sanctified , and appointed by god for the winning of those without the word , who refuse to obey it . pet. . . and besides all this , ( that which is the first-born means of conversion ) she preacheth the gospel with as much diligence , and faithfulnesse , and power , and with as much libertie and freedome unto all to partake with her in this her ministration , as any other way whatsoever : yea , as readie and forward she is as any other , to contribute her proportion to the full , whether in counsell , purse , or otherwise , for the furnishing of all the candlesticks in the land with burning and shining lights , i mean for the erecting and setting up a faithfull preaching ministery throughout the land , yea if it were possible , throughout the whole world . therefore fifthly , ( and lastly , to the main objection ) whereas this way with the permission and sufferance of it , is burthened with this jealousie and fear , that it is so highly displeasing unto god , that he is not like to turn in mercie unto the nation , untill it be removed , and all the factors for it taken away . i answer . first , that this jealousie and fear is of the same inspiration , with that wherewith rabshakeh of old , sought to possesse the heart of the good king hezekiah and the inhabitants of jerusalem , that so upon the discouragement they might be the more willing to compound for their city . but if thou say to me , ●● trust in the lord our god ; is it not he whose high places , and whose altars hezekiah hath taken away , and said to judah and jerusalem , ye shall worship before this altar ? that which hezekiah had done ( in destroying idolatry ) with great acceptation in the sight of god , and which consequently was in it self a pledge and confirmation unto him and his people that god was and would be with them to save them and their citie out of rabshakehs hand , this doth this deceived ambitious man contrive into an argument of jealousie and fear unto them , that god was offended with them ; and so represents their hope and confidence , in the shape of diffidence and deep discouragement unto them . he that perswaded the woman , that god knew how that in the day wherein they should eat of the tree i● the mid ●●st of the garden , their eyes should be opened , and they be like gods , &c. hath ( it seems ) possest many amongst us with this semblable apprehension , that from the day wherein they shall destroy that way we speak of out of the land , and suppre●●e all those that walk in it , god will be gracious unto them , and remember their iniquities no more ; as if to sacrifice the children in the fathers sight , were the onely means of making atonement with him . but secondly , how doth this carrie any shew or shadow of reason or truth in it , that god should turn away his face from a state or nation , for not hating his people or for refusi●g to persecute his anointed ones ? god sometimes said , that nation whom they shall serve , i will iudge . gen. . . is his mind so far altered in this point , that now he should say , the nation who shall give them libertie , i will iudge ? the generall rule of restraint which god hath charged upon states , kingdoms , and nations , is this : touch not mine a●●i●ted , and do my prophets no harm : and hath he anywhere made independencie ( so called ) an exception from this rule ? or hath he anywhere made presbyterie a distinguishing character of such of his anointed ones , who must not be touc●'d , from others of them , who may be crush'd , and whose bon●s m●y b● broken ? surely circumcision and unci●cumcision differed as much , as presby●erie and independencie can do : yet the apostle tels us , gal. . . that in jesus christ neither circumcision av●ileth any thing , nor uncircumcision , but a new creature . if independents be new creatures , and born of god , their brethren need not fear any displeasure or anger from their father , for suffering them to dwell in peace by them in the same land ; but have cause to rejoyce in such their neighbourhood and societi● , as being pillars of the s●me strength with themselves , to support the state and nation wherein they dwell . but thirdly , ( and lastly ) when mens table becomes a snare unto them , and their welfare a trap , it is a signe that god is about to bow down their backs , if not to make their habitations desolate . when the jews began to reason after this manner , ( and to act accordingly ) if we let him thus alone , all men will beleeve on him : and then the romanes shall come , and take away both our place and nation ; it was a presage , that the romanes indeed would come , and take away both : which they did not many yeers after . make the heart of this people fat ( saith the lord by his prophet , concerning the same people ) and make their eares heavie , and shut their eyes , lest they see with their eyes , and hear with their eares , and understand with their heart , and convert , and be healed . i say no more in this , but onely pray with all mine heart , and with all my soul , that the people of this kingdom , may see with their eyes , and hear with their eares , and understand with their hearts , that they may convert , and be healed . the heathens were wont to say , jupiter , quos vult perdere , dementat . another objection leavied against the way is this : if this way be let alone , and suffered to take place , it will still undermine the credit and comfort , of many worthy and conscientious ministers in the land . for as fast as they , through the blessing of god upon their faithfull labours in the work of the ministery , shall convert souls unto god ; this way will allure them away from them unto it self ; whereby their hand must needs be enfeebled and discouraged to their work . but to this also i answer . first , that if that way of government and worship , wherein those good ministers shall walk , who are supposed to convert people unto god , be indeed and in truth the way of god , there is little ground or cause of fear , that any other way should separate between them and their converted ones . for first , the verie grace of conversion , being dispensed unto these by their hand , is a great and solemne ingagement upon them , to love and honour them above others . secondly , the person being dearly lov'd , and highly honour'd , gives credit and interest both in the judgements and affections of those who do so love and honour , to all his matters , as well of opinion as practise ; at least is compleat armour of proof against any prejudice in respect of either . thirdly , when men and women are converted unto god , they are endued with a principle of a neerer and more inward sympathie and compliance with all the wayes of god , then they had before . so that there is more cause for ministers to fear the withdrawing of their people from them before their conversion , then after , in case the way of worship and government which they imbrace , be of god . for in this case and supposition , unconverted ones have no inward sutablenesse of soul , to incline them to love or delight in this way , and consequently their hearts must needs sit loose ( if they stand not in opposition ) ●o it : but those that are converted , are baptized into such a spirit , which is apt to comport and correspond with it . again secondly , if the hearts of men and women upon their conversion unto god , are so generally found ( for otherwise there is no place for the jealo●●ie , which is the ground of the objection ) to stand in propension to this way , is not this an argument , if not demonstrative , yet of a very high importance to evince , that this way is of a truth , the way of god ? i will wait on thy name ( saith david ) for it is good before thy saints ; or , because thy saints like it well ( as another translation reads . ) so that this great prophet and king thought the generall approbation and concurrence of the saints , sufficiently assertive of the acceptablenes of a way or practise , in the sight of god . thirdly , those ministers who have the spirit of this glory cast upon them by god , to beget sons and daughters unto him by the gospel , have no cause to envie the line and measure of those who receive them from their hand , upon such terms . that which our saviour spake in another case , is every what as considerably true in this : viz. that it is a more blessed thing to give , then to receive : and the apostle paul makes no other account , but that his relation of a spirituall father unto the corinths , his begetting of them by the gospel , was much more honourable unto him , then the relation of an instructor , or builder up , was , or would be unto others . for though you have ten thousand instructors i● christ , ( saith he ) yet have ye not many fathers : for in christ jesus i have begotten you through the gospel . and else-where he counts it a master-piece in the spirituall building , to lay the foundation . according to the grace of god which is given to me , as a wise master-builder i have laid the foundation , and another buildeth thereon . so then , planting being more apostolicall then watering ( it was paul that planted , and but apollos that watered , cor. . . ) and laying the foundations of life and immortalitie in men , of a more honourable interpretation , then the building of them up in their faith ; the ministers so much tendered in the objection , have not the least colour for any such grievance or complaint , as is there presented on their behalf , indeed and in realitie of truth no more , then the apostles themselves had , for complaining against such ministers and pastors , who feed those flock● of christ which they had first converted unto him . and without all contradiction ( saith the apostle ) the lesser is blessed , but never envied , of the greater . fourthly ( and lastly ) the gracious and bountifull god hath so laid it in his counsell and decree , that , though the saying be true , which our saviour taketh notice of , job . . . that one soweth , and another reapeth ; yet both he that soweth , and he that reapeth , should reioyce together . ver. . so that as abigail told david , that when the lord should have done unto him all the good which he had promised him , it would be no grief unto him , nor offence of mind , that he had not shed blood causlesse , or avenged himself ; no more will it be the least occasion of uncomfortablenesse or complaint unto ministers , who have been faithfull unto god , and brought home souls unto him , when they shall shine like stars in the firmament of heaven , that some of the children of their labours departed from under their hand when time was , to seek pasture and soulaccommodations else-where . another objection seeming to war with an high hand against the way hitherto protected , is this : can that in reason be thought to be the way of god , which seemeth so onely in the eyes of a few inconsiderable , and ( for the most part ) illiterate persons ▪ and not rather that , which triumpheth in the vote and suffrage of a reverend , learned , pious and frequent assembly ; yea and further hath the approbation of many wise and worthy persons in full concurrence with it ? do not wise men see more then those that are weak , and many , then few ? i answer , first , that solomon returned , and saw under the sun , that the race is not to the swift , nor the battell to the strong , neither yet bread to the wise , nor yet riches to men of understanding , nor yet favour to men of skill ; but that time a●d chance happeneth unto them all ; meaning , that god still reserves a liberty to himself to interpose , and to carry the issues and events of things against all advantages and likelihoods of second causes , when and where and as oft as he pleaseth . and therefore as king as● in his cry unto the lord his god , said , it is nothing with thee to help , whether with many , or with them that have no power : in like manner it is but of one and the same consideration with god , to blesse the world with the revelation of truth , whether it be by few , or by many , by those that are learned , or those that are look'd upon as men of small understanding . nay , secondly , if we consult with the tenor of gods providence and dispensations in this kind , our information or answer will be according to the tenor of our saviours gratulation ( being now in a kind of rapture or exultation of spiri● ) unto his father : i thank thee , o father , lord of heaven and earth , that th●● h●st hid th●se things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them unto babes : even so father , for so it seemed good in thy sight . though god be at libertie , to make the first discovery , or communication of the light of his truth , unto the world , by greater numbers of men , and those learned and in high esteeme for wisdome , as by councels , synods , and conventions of men eminent in their qualifications , as well as by one or fewer , and these under no great observation for either ; ●et by the more frequent experience of all ages it appeareth , that he taketh pleasure in this latter way , rather then in the former . doubtlesse it was not without some very considerable ground and reason , that that ancient and learned father * gregorie n●zianzene should say , that he never saw good end , or desirable successe of any councell ; or that they procur'd any decrease , but rather increase of evi●s . yea and adds : that the pertinacious contentions , and inordinate desires of domineering or bearing rule , were such , as words could not expresse . him ( saith the apostle ) god raised up the third day , and shewed him openly : not unto lith● people , but unto witnesses chosen before of god , even unto us , who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead . mary a woman , had both the first revelation made unto her of christs rising againe from the dead , and also the first enterview and sight of him after he was risen . joh. . . . the scripture takes speciall notice of lots departure from abraham , before god was pleased to make that excellent discovery of himselfe unto him , spoken of , gen. . , , &c. yea , most of those revelations of himselfe , which he was graciously pleas'd to impart unto his ancient church of the jewes , were not imparted unto them by their synedrion or great councell , but by particular men ; who likewise usually ( if not alwayes ) received their inspirations from god , in their greatest privacie and sequestration ; yea , and that ( if the observation of the rabbins will hold in that behalfe ) whilst they were yong . that light of evangelicall truth , wherein the reformed churches rejoyce at this day , yea , and triumph over antichristian darkness , did not break out of the clouds of councels and synods unto them , but god caused it to shine upon them , from scattered and single starres , as luther , calvin , zuinglius , martyr , &c. god never took any pleasure to cumber his arme with flesh and bloud , when he meant to doe any great thing for his church by it . wee find him once complaining right out , that the people were too many for him , to give deliverance or victory by ; but we never heard of any complaint from him that they were too few . and why may we not think , but that god may as well say within himselfe , that there are too many learned and wise men in a great councell , for him to reveale truth , or to give victory against error by ? the reason of this kind of dispensation is obvious ; and therefore i forbeare ( for the present ) to insist upon it . . as a presuming confidence of a mans leggs , is a signe of such a time or chance ( in solomons phrase ) wherein the race shall not be to the swift ; and so the challenging a victorie , as it were of course , because we have chariots , and horses , and vast multitudes of men , expert in warre above our enemies , is a presage seldome failing , that the battell will not be to the strong : in like manner when synods and councels shall beare themselves inordinately upon their numbers and multitudes , upon their wisdome , learning , and pietie , and because of these , shall ( upon the matter ) challenge an infallibilitie ( for what doe they lesse , when they command all mens judgements and consciences to bow downe at the feet of their determinations ? ) this is little lesse then an authorized ground of divination , that they will miscarry , and that god will not honour them , with the discovery of any of his truth unto the world . a synod or councell , though of men never so conscientious and learned , though never so both frequent and fervent in fasting and prayer before god , that shall assemble and meet together upon such terms , i meane so as either to expect , but especially peremptorily to conclude , before hand , that all men shall make faith and practise of their decisions , or else be censur'd , and made to suffer like evill doers ; doe in this set up their idols in their heart , and put the stumbling block of their iniquitie before their face : and consequently devest themselves of that capacitie , wherein they should be meet to enquire of the lord . should i be enquired of at all by them ? ( saith god himselfe ezek. . . of such ) indeed where greater numbers of men , accomplished with grace , and parts of learning , shall assemble together with humilitie and meeknesse , and for ends proportioned to the line and sphere of men , as viz. candidly and unpartially to argue and debate , and so to finde out the truth in things appertaining unto god , onely with an intent and desire to be helpers of the saints , as by making rough things plaine , and things that were hard , easie , and dark things , lightsome , and not to exercise a dominion over their faith ( as the apostle speaketh ) by an authoritative commanding them out of their present judgement , what ever it be , to doe homage to the results of their debates , whether they see light and truth in them or no ; they may expect a speciall presence of god with them , and the churches of god about them , may comfortably waite for somewhat more of the minde of christ from them , then they knew . in the multitude of such counsellors , there may be safetie , as solomon speaketh . i would gladly beleeve , if i could find where to set the sole of the foot of such a faith , that councels and synods are wont to meet upon such terms : which if they doe not , i am ( almost ) as farre out of hope of having the joy of my faith holpen or increased by them , as i am of gathering grapes from thornes , or figgs of thistles . and therefore , . ( and lastly ) whereas the objection urgeth , that wise men are like to see more then those that are weake , and many , then few : i answer , that this is not alwayes found true , no not in naturall , civill or artificiall things , wherein notwithstanding there is usually a greater regularitie and uniformitie in the actings and workings of second causes ; much lesse is it alwayes true in matters belonging unto god ; wherein himselfe more frequently interposeth by his prerogative , and ordereth the tenor and course of occurrences and effects , besides the proportion of second causes , by the good pleasure of his will . all the great and rare inventions of the world , which either former , or latter ages have brought to light , were not the issues or results either of the thoughts or studies of the wisest or learnedest of men , nor yet of the consultations or communications of the greatest numbers or multitudes of men : but the wise disposer of all things , according to his owne good pleasure and will , cast this honour upon particular and single men , ( for the most part ) and those not alwayes of the most learned or profound , as by many instances might readily be evicted , if it were necessary . and solomon reports unto us a case , wherein one poore man by his wisdome delivered a citie out of imminent danger ; which ( it seems ) all the rest of the inhabitants did not see or apprehend how to doe . yea , in councels themselves , or greater assemblies of men , it is usually seene that some one , or few , either of predominant parts , or authoritie amongst them , sway and steere all the proceedings , and act the judgements and affections of the rest , though conscientious and learned to a degree . so that upon the matter , and just accompt , the resolution● of councels and synods themselves , are but the fruits or putting-forth of the learning , and judgement , of a very few men ; and whether these be alwayes of the most conscientious , i had rather others should consider , then i determine . the last objection designed for present examination , is this that the intent and project of this way , is ambitious , high , and dangerous , that it affecteth a dictatorship ecclesiasticall , a power of law-giving , that it undermines civill or parliamentary authoritie , &c. but to this also we answer ( omitting what was formerly said , concerning extravagant height of accusations and charges , and the slender probabilitie of truth in them : as likewise concerning the speciall disposition of god in ordering the malice or ill will of those that are enemies , either to his people or wayes , still to shoote the arrowes of their accusations against their b●e●s●plate of righteousnesse , where it is strongest and least penetrable ▪ . that there is not the least colour , no , nor the least colour of a colour , to charge any ambitious or dictator-like designe upon this way . the reason is , because the most essentiall , int●insecall , and fundamentall principles of it , stand diametrally bent against all dictatoring , and law-giving by men , in the things of god . the sunne may with as much , or more reason be suspected of consulting darknesse against the world , as this way of meditating or projecting any authoritative greatnesse unto it self in this kinde . indeed , when it degenerates from it self , and passeth into another kind , there may be some danger and fear of this way ; as there is that honey should turn into choler , when the native property of it is altered by the stomack . a congregationall man become a classique , may as soon as another make a son of such a designe as is specified in the objection . . if the way wee speak of , should be so contradictory to her self , as to desire or project such a kingdome , as she stands charged with in the objection ; yet should not the world have the least cause to fear her prosecutions or executions in this kinde . if the lamb in the fold should threaten or project the slaughter and destruction of all the lions in the wildernesse , had these ever the more cause to be afraid of her ? the kingdomes and powers of this world , need not fear either the numbers or power of the saints , for taking away their crowns , or breaking the scepters of their rule and government , untill the world that now is be translated into that which is to come . and therefore , . whereas this way is further arrested by the objection , for a pioner and underminer of magistracy , or parliamentary authority ; i answer , that there is no more in this way to undermine or endanger any civill authority or power whatsoever , then there was in daniels heart to prejudice the life and honour of the king , when hee prayed three times a day , ( contrary to the kings commandement ) or then was in pauls doctrine of justification by faith to make voyd the writings of moses , or the law ; whereby indeed he did establish it ( as himself affirmeth , rom. . . ) though the jewes apprehended , and charged him with the contrary . and doubtlesse the learned gentleman , who undertakes the unmasking of independency , ( which never wore any ) is in an utter mistake , not only of the intentions of the two brethren of this way ( who ever they were ) whose words he citeth , p. . of his late examination ; but also of the rationall and grammaticall construction and import of the words . for whereas they say , that a man may as well bring a clean thing out of an unclean , as make a spirituall extraction ●●t of a se 〈…〉 , the gentleman will needs interpret , that they make both parliament and assembly secular and unclean ; whereas by the tenor and carriage of the whole passage , it is as clear as the sun ▪ that in neither of these expressions they reflect either upon the one , or the other ; no , nor yet in those following words , wherein they affirm , that it will be demonstratively prov'd ( against their adversary , who makes the law of the state the first and most considerable band or tye upon men , for their submission to his church-government ) that he resolves the government of the churches of christ ( in the last resolution of it ) into the humors , wills and pleasures of the world , yea , of the vilest and most unworthy of men . and therefore , whereas upon his citation of these words , his demand is , brethren , bona verba quaeso , the brethren upon his interpretation of them , have far more reason to make this request unto him ; brother , bonam glossam quaesum●● . the words are good , if the interpretation did but answer . for doubtlesse the brethren in the mentioned period and expressions , reflected only upon the generality of the people in the land , who according to the lawes of the land ; yea , according to the principles of all reason and equity , have the right of nominating persons into the places of parliamentary trust and power ; but have no authority or power from christ to nominate or appoint , who shall be the men that shall order the affairs of christs kingdome , or institute the government of his churches . these , and especially the ignorant and irreligious part of them ( which they that know any thing concerning the generality of the kingdome for matters of religion , must needs know to be far the greater part in every place ) are that secular root , out of which the brethren conceive an impossibility , that a spirituall extraction should be made , that is , that a legitimate ecclesiastique power should according to the minde of christ , or any precept or president of scripture , be by them conferred upon any man : and this impossibility conceived by them , they only illustrate and declare by that parallel expression in job , who can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ? when they imply , that men unworthy , and strangers to the power of godlinesse and matters of religion , have the right and power of conferring parliamentary trust and power , upon persons chosen by them hereinto , they reflect not the least touch of prejudice or disparagement upon the persons honoured with that choyce : first , because there is no other way , no , nor is there any conveniency or lawfulnesse of any way whereby to ascend the height of the interest and honour , but such a choyce : and secondly , the votes and voyces of such men being carried upon persons of honour , worth and religion , demonstrates that there was so much the more of god in their election ; which is so far from diminishing their honour in the least , that it add● double and treble unto it . but to hold that the persons so elected , as hath been said , have a power by vertue of such nomination or election , to enact laws and statutes in matters of religion , and to order under mulcts and penalties , how men shall worship and serve god ; as it is a means to awaken the eye of jealousie upon them , and so is seven times more destructive unto , and undermining , not only of their power , but of their honour , peace , and safety also , then any thing that is found in the way so ill intreated ; so is it the setling of a power upon the electors of such persons , i mean , upon the promiscuous multitude of the land , a greater power then ever jesus christ himself had , at least then ever he exercised . for as dare regem argues a greater power then esse regem , as hee that buildeth an house , hath more honour then the house , heb. . . so to nominate and appoint who shall have power to umpire in matters of conscience and of god , to determine what shall be preached , and what not , what shall be believed , and what not , is a branch of a greater root of power , then the exercise of the power that is committed unto others in this behalf . now though jesus christ had a power , and was authorized by god to be a law-giver himself unto his churches and saints , in their spirituall republique ; yet it is hard to prove that ever he invested any other with such a power . his apostles themselves were no lords over the faith of the saints ; nor had they any power or authority to impose any thing upon men , as necessary , either to be believed or practised , but what they had in expresse commission and charge from jesus christ himself to impose upon such terms . so that notwithstanding that severe & angry contestation of the fore-mentioned gentleman against the two brethren with their fellows , is this your so much boasted of preaching , writing , fighting for the rights & priviledges of parliament ? whereby he thinks to dash both them and that their boasting together out of countenance ; though they boast neither little nor much of any thing ; boasting is their charge not their crime ; they only say , and that with modesty yet , blessed be god , they are able to maintain and make good that their boasting ( if it must needs be so called ) in the sight of god and angels , and men , and devils , and whatsoever besides is named , not only in this world , but in that also which is to come . and though he hath done like himself , and ( i speak it to his honour ) far above the line of many others , in vindicating the rights and priviledges of parliament ; yet ( absit verbo invidia ) i am very confident , that there are thousands of that way and judgement , against which his pen riseth up with so much indignation , who rateably , and according to their means and opportunities , have quitted themselves upon equall terms of honour , love , and faithfulnesse , towards those honourable houses , with himself . . ( and lastly ) it were no task of much labour or difficulty , to demonstrate that the way , in the defence whereof we have thus far appeared , is so far from carrying any malignity , or seed of danger in it to the state , or persons invested with civill power , that it is of a manifest and rich compliance both with the one and the other . he that commanded to give unto cesar the things that are cesars , and unto god the things that are gods : did cesar as much ( if not more ) service , in the latter command , as in the former . silver and gold , wood and stone , never got any thing by having an artificiall deity bestowed upon them , and being worshiped , but only a meer proximity to destruction . they that should only have said unto herod , that he had spoken like a sober and well advised man , might have shewed as much affection to him , yea , and honoured him upon better terms , then they that shouted , i●s the voyce of a god , and not of a man . there is no foundation so sure and precious to build the honour , peace and safety of cesar upon , as a stone duly pitched for a land-mark between god and him . but if there be a question or difficult case between god and cesar , whether such and such things belong unto the one , or unto the other , they will be found the best and faithfullest counsellors unto cesar , who shall advise him rather to surrender unto , then to claim a doubtfull right or priviledge from god . the way we speak of is so ingenuous , loyall and true-hearted to men in place of civill authority and power , that it teacheth her sons to expose themselves unto their displeasure , for the procurement of their good ; which even the heathen themselves have attested for one of the best and least questionable signs of true friendship and love . to these answers of objections , i thought to have added some positive arguments , whereby the way , now little more then only defended , might have gained the honour of a more perfect conformity to the will and word of god , then ( perhaps ) hath been discovered or seen hitherto . yet i cannot but think , that the vailes of the principall objections which covered the face of it , being rent and torn , the beauty and brightnesse of it must needs shine forth in the eyes of all those who have not sacrificed unto partiality . to close with a word of exhortation . the premises considered , as we love the things of our peace , and desire the speedy dispersion and scattering of that dark and black cloud still hanging and hovering over our heads , and threatning more fiery storms & tempests of desolation and blood upon us , and to see the heavens cleering up , and looking like crystall or saphire over us , as we desire to see those terrible swarms of locusts and caterpillars , which now devour and eat up our good land daily , swept away ▪ and carried by a strong west wind into the midst of the sea , that so we may be fed again , with the ancient heritage of our fathers , i mean plenty , safety , and peace ; if there be any bowels , any compassions in us towards our nation , ( so far spent & wasted with misery ) towards our cities and habitations , towards our friends , towards our selves , towards any thing which is dear either to the one , or to the other ; let us be exhorted to take heed of fighting against god ; let it be the first-born of religious advisements and cautions to us , not to be fierce , no , nor so much as to lift up an hard thought against doctrine or way claiming origination and descent from god , till wee have security upon security , conditions as cleer as the noon-day , that they are but counterfeits and pretenders only , and stand in no relation at all , but that of enmity and opposition unto god . particularly , let us be tender above all tenderness , to act to the value of the least hair of our heads in any way of bitterness or blood , against that way of governing the churches of christ , which hath by so many good hands been presented unto us as most agreeable unto the word and will of god , untill we see the condemnation of it written with a beam of the sun , by the finger of god himself ; untill he hath disclaimed or renounced it from heaven , either by giving such wisdome unto men whereby to detect the error and vanity of it , or else hath quite rased it out of the fleshly tables of the hearts of his saints , and distrest servants . the motion and matter is of a most serious and formidable importance ; therefore let me exhort you yet once more , to beware of men , ( as our saviour adviseth , in a case of lesse consequence ) to take heed , that no man , either through passionate exclamations and outcries , or through any faire or flourishing pretences whatsoever , draw your foot into this snare , ingage you in any such warfare , wherein , for ought you know , you shall fight against god . if your judgements stand off from the cause wee speak of , for the present , and you can see nothing of god in it ; you may please to consider , that this was the case of many thousands amongst you , in whom there is much of god , and in whose heart is this way , as a way of his . if they be deceived in imbracing it , god will shew mercy unto them in revealing the truth unto them in due time . but if you shall be deceived in the violence and fury of your fighting against it , is it not much to be feared , that you will be intangled with the guilt of such a sin , which shall not be purged from you till yee die ? finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- king. . . cor. ● . . joh. . . notes for div a e- ● see m●● . ● . a●● 〈◊〉 ● . ●● interim or aculi instar nobis esse debet , quòd dei cōsilia nullis ●omm● viribus imped reposse , humana verò suá sp●nte collabi discimus . gual . homil. . an act . psal. . , ▪ . reason . luk. ● . . reason . reason . acts . rom. . . acts . ● job . . * in severall populous towns in the low countries , scarce every th , nay , not every th person ( as i have been credibly informed ) is immembred ▪ into any of their churches , and yet the government of the nation is reputed presbyteriall . joh. . . cor. ●● . . mat . . mat. . . eccles. . . john . ● . psal. . . prov. . . esa. . . gen. . prov. . . prov. . . hab. . . luk. . . &c. matth. . . cor. . . isa. . . gen. . . psal. . . psal. . ● . ver. . ioh. . . isa. . . psal. . . act. . cor. . . cor. . . hebr. . . sam. . , . dan. . . eccles. . . cor. . . luk. ▪ . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; greg. naz. ep. ● . ad procop●um . act. . . judg. . . e●●k . . . cor. . . prov. . . eccles. . . dan. . . . independency examined , unmask'd , &c. matth. . . act ▪ . . phil. . . isa. . .