A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ... Burton, Henry, 1578-1648. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A30650 of text R20892 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B6176). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 185 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 39 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A30650 Wing B6176 ESTC R20892 12047280 ocm 12047280 53107 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30650) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 53107) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 861:31) A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ... Burton, Henry, 1578-1648. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A30650 of text R20892 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B6176). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread [4], 72 p. Printed for Henry Overton ..., London : 1644. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. eng Prynne, William, 1600-1669. -- Twelve considerable serious questions touching church government. Prynne, William, 1600-1669. -- Independency examined. Church polity. A30650 R20892 (Wing B6176). civilwar no A vindication of churches, commonly called Independent: or, A briefe ansvver to two books; the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious q Burton, Henry 1644 35356 286 50 0 0 0 0 95 D The rate of 95 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-07 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-07 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES , COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT : OR A BRIEFE ANSVVER to two Books ; the one , intituled , Twelve considerable serious Questions , touching CHURCH-GOVERNMENT : The other , INDEPENDENCY examined , unmasked , refuted , &c. Both lately published by WILLIAM PRINNE , of LINCOLNES-Inne , Esquire . By HENRY BURTON , a Brother of his , and late Companion in Tribulation . MAT. 10. 34 , 35 , 36. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth ; I came not to send peace , but a sword . For I am come to set a man at variance against his father , and the daughter against her mother , and the daughter in law against her mother in law : And a mans foes shall be they of his owne houshold . If any man will come after me , let him deny himselfe , and take up his crosse daily , and follow me . Luk. 9. 23. The second Edition . Entred and printed according to Order . LONDON ; Printed for Henry Overton , in Popes-head Alley . 1644. To Mr. WILLIAM PRINNE , &c. MY deare Brother , and late companion in tribulation , you propound your twelve Questions to all sober minded Christians , cordially affecting a speedy setled Reformation , and brotherly Christian union in all the Churches , ( as you write in Front ) and myselfe being one of these , ( and no other you shall find me ) doe with the right hand take your Propositions as made to me among the rest ▪ craving your leave to returne you a brotherly Answer . And brotherly in nothing more , then by a candid and Christian dealing with you all along , and that also in a matter of such high moment , as concernes the kingdome and glory of Jesus Christ . The zeale whereof is that alone , which puts me upon this task ; it being otherwise far beyond my thoughts , that you and I , having been fellow-sufferers , and spectacles to the world , upon that tragicall stage of Antichristian tyranny , should ever come upon the Theatre as Antagonists , one against the other , about the Kingdome of Jesus Christ . But surely as an Antagonist against you I come not , but in the bowells of a brother . And had not the Book had your name in the Front , my stomack had not stooped so low , as to take it up or downe . But because most men are apt to take all upon trust , where they find Mr. Prinnes name engaged : and the Cause being so precious , as it hath by right taken up my whole heart , to become an Advocate to plead the excellency of it : I could not , though the meanest of all , but for the love of Christ constraining me , and by his grace assisting , undertake this taske . Otherwise unwilling in hoc ulcere esse unguis , as the Roman Orator said in another case . And this Answer was brought to the birth soone after yours : but it wanted a Midwife , whereof you have plenty . And I have had many interruptions . Nor am I so quick of foot , as you . But I may say , as Ierome once to young Augustin ; Bos lassus fortiùs figit pedem . And so in the spirit of love I come to your Booke . A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES , COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT . YOu are for a speedy accomplishment of a Reformation . And so am I , and so our late Covenant taken , binds every man to begin with himselfe , and those under him , and each to prevent other in the worke . But yet this is sooner said then done . For * shall a Nation be borne at once ? Shall a corrupt , prophane , polluted Land , not yet washed from her old superstitions , not yet wained from the Aegyptian fleshpots , not yet wrought off from the spirit of bondage , become all on a sudden a Reformed Nation ? But yet Optandum est ut fiat , conandum est ut fiat , ( to use Augustins words of the Conversion of the Jewes ) It were to be wished , and should be ind●voured . But as Rome was not built in one day , nor the mystery of iniquitie perfected in one day : so neither can Rome be so easily pulled downe in one day : nor can England become a Mount Sion in one day ; first the old rubbish will require some time to be removed out of your Church-walls , but how much longer time out of mens hearts , where they have been so long , so fast incorporated ? And you know , that the materialls of that typicall Temple , the timber , the stone , were all ●ewed first , and squared , before they came to make up the building . Therefore soft and faire . The People are generally ignorant of a right Reformation . A right Reformation is a setting up of Christs spirituall kingdome , first over the hearts and consciences , and then over the severall Churches . For this , the * Carpenters and Masons must be set a work , godly and able Ministers must be sought out , and sought for of the Lord , to fit the crooked timber , and rugged stones , for the Spirituall Temple . For England is generally ignorant of the mysterie of Christs Kingdome ; the Prelates usurped all , suppressed altogether this Spirituall kingdom ; no Ministers durst so much as mutter a word of it . Who durst say , that mens Consciences are subject to none , but Christ ? That Christ is the only Law-giver of his Church ? That the Churches of Christ ought not to be burthened with any humane ordinances in Gods Worship ? That all humane rites and ceremonies invented by men , and imposed on men in Gods service , are all a * will-worship , condemned by the Apostle ? And the like . And yet wee deny not that every member in a Church is to be subject to the Officers thereof , holding out the Word , for conscience sake , Hebr. 13. 17. Now if the People have not heard of Christ thus a King , no , not to this day in most Congregations of England do heare , or understand any thing of Christs kingly Office over Consciences and Churches , as whereupon a right reformation doth principally depend : how can such a Reformation be speedily set up , when the preaching up of Christs Kingdome is altogether silent , as if Ministers mouths were not yet freed from their old muzzle ? Therefore , I conceive , if the better heed be not taken , there may be more hoste to a Reformation , then good speed : when among so many Congregations , so many thousands in England , very few would be found to have on the Wedding garment . A Reformation therefore , such as God requires , will necessarily require longer time yet , that we may not go blind-fold about it . You tell us , that importunity of some reverend friends hath drawn from you your digested subitane apprehensions of these distracting Controversies . Who those reverend friends are , it matters not . But had I been accounted worthy to be reckoned among those reverend friends , to have been made acquainted with such a purpose , I should have used all importunity ▪ seasoned with strong reasons , to have disswaded you from those subitane apprehensions . And seeing I come to know them , though somewhat too late , in that they cannot be recalled ; admit your self were Aristotle , and your friend Plato , yet I will say , Amicus Aristotles , Amicus Plato , sed magis amica veritas . And therefore I must be plaine with you , otherwise I should neither love you , nor your friend , nor yet the truth it selfe . To be plaine therefore , though I know you to be a very Heluo librorum , of vast & indefatigable reading , and to have a stomack proportionable , of a strong digestion : yet give me leave to tell you , as my loving and beloved friend and brother , that the subject you here deale with , is not of so easie a digestion , as that subitane , or sudden apprehensions thereof may be w●ll said to be digested . Strong meats , you know , taken downe liberally into the stomack , doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion . And a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crud●●ies , ingendring malignant humours in the body . You digest your apprehensions into considerable Questions , ( as you call them ) to be solemnly debated by sober minds : but passing along ( brother ) I find your Questions turned into your owne resolutions , so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men , you forestall them , and tell us , that these Independents , ( as you style them ) are guilty of Arrogancy , Schisme , Contumacy , and liable to such penalties , as are due to these offences , in case they shall not submit to such a publick Church-Government , Rites , Discipline , as a Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word , &c. And all along , your Queries are so digested by you , as that they cast up a very ill sent , if not rather a judiciall sentence against those Churches , which not honoris causa you name Independents . But we shall answer to the particulars , as they come in order . Thus much of your Proeme , or Preface . To your first Question . Before I punctually answer this , and so the rest of your Questions , let me premise this , as an {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , which I must demand of you a due to my Profession : that forasmuch as you are a learned Lawyer , and able to speake much of Lawes , and Customes of Nations , and Churches , and my selfe am a professor of Divinitie , the Rules and Principles whereof , are all of them laid downe in the Scripture , unto which alone all Questions about Faith and Religion are so reducible , and finally determinable , as who so denieth this , denieth the faith , and is not to be disputed with , as a denier of Principles : therefore I require of you , as a Christian brother , to joyne issue with me in this point , that all your Questions may be resolved by cleare Scriptures , and reason , evidently deduced from them ; and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie . Now to your first question , the summe whereof is , Whether every severall Nation , Republick , and Nationall Church , hath not under the Gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of Church-government , Discipline , and Ecclesiasticall Rites , as is most suteable to their particular Civill government , lawes , manners , customes , being not repugnant to the word of God . This being ( as I conceive ) a generally received truth among all Protestant Churches . And whether some things in all Church-governments , Discipline , Ceremonies whatsoever , are not , and must not be left to humane prudence , for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ ? Which truth is assented to by all parties , Churches , whatsoever , in theory or practice . This is the substance of your first Question . To which I answer : And first to your quotation of the Harmony , I will answer one for all . Sect. 16. August . Confessio 4. Traditiones de ●●riis , &c. We condemne not Traditions of Holy-dayes , of the Lords day , of the Nativity , of Easter , and the rest , for a politick end . Here , you see , they put the observation of the Lords day , among humane Traditions , which I suppose you doe not approve . Again , they allow onely such observations , as God by the Morall Law , and the voyce of Nature it selfe commandeth . And thirdly , That humane rites be not imposed , Ne conscientiae onerentur , That mens consciences bee not burthened . And in a word : To shape Religion in point of Church-government , Discipline , Ceremonies , to every Nation , Republick , Nationall Church , and to Civill Government , Lawes , Manners , Customes , and so to humane Prudence , ( as you say ) what is it but to shape a coat for the Moone ? Whereas the Scripture holds forth unto us , but onely one forme of Church-government , and Discipline , which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane Lawes and Customes in all Kingdomes and Common-weales , as you affirme . And whereas you make a proviso , Alwayes provided , every thing bee consonant , and no way repugnant to the word of God : To what purpose is this , when the very liberty you give of altering Church-government and Discipline as may be sutable to humane Laws and Customes , is it self repugnant , and no way consonant to the word of God ; as we shall shew by and by . This is transformare Ecclesiam in humanam politiam , to transforme the Church into a humane Politie . * Hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt Ecclesiae , & semper nocebunt , These imaginations , or fancies , have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the Church , and will alwayes hu●t . Thus the Harmony * Now , brother , whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any Gospel Text , that Christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of Ecclesiasticall government , Discipline , Rites , to all Nations , Churches , in all particulars , from which they may in no case vary , under pain of mortall sin , schisme , or being no true Churches of Christ , with whom good Christians may not safely communicate : First , what evidence from Scripture can you bring , why it should not necessarily be so ? You would seeme to make this a ground why Church-government , Discipline , Rites , should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall Nations : Because ( say you ) Christ enjoyned the preaching of the Gospel to all Nations and People whatsoever , who have their severall established defferent formes of Civill government , Laws , Manners , Rules and Customes , sutable to their respective dispositions , Climes , Republicks . By this reason you might argue , that therefore the Gospel it self may be preached variously , according to the variation of the climate * : and if not so , then ( say I ) neither is the Church-government and Discipline to be varied according to the diversity of Nations , Laws , Customes , Climates . For , brother , the Church-government and Discipline now in the time of the Gospel , is a part of the Gospel , as being the Gospel-government , and Discipline of the Evan 〈…〉 l Churches . And , brother why should you think that Christ now under the Gospel , or New Testament , hath ●e●t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of Church-government and Discipline , which in the New Testament is laid down , then he did in the Old Testament under the Leviticall Law ? What a strict charge did this Law-maker give to Moses ? See ( saith he ) that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the Mount . He must not vary one pin * . But some will say , When the Tribes of Israel were reduced under a kingly government , as in Davids time , the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp , when the Temple was built , then it was before in the Tabernacle ; whereby it may appear , that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so , as was sutable to the Regall state . But I answer , Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God , or in the Church-government . For God was so exact in this , that he would not leave it to David himself , though both a King and a Prophet , and a man after Gods own heart , to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple , but God gave him an exact patterne of all , and that not onely by his Spirit , but in writing , that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle , 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah , to do the least thing in point of Reformation , but onely to see , that the Priests do all strictly , ( not any thing as seemed good to them , but all ) according to the precise rule of the Law , 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament , and is he grown more remisse under the New ? In Ezekiels vision of the Temple , or Church in the time of the Gospel , Ezek. 43. 10 , 11. wee reade of a patterne , form , fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God , which is his Church , exactly set down , and measured by Gods own speciall direction . Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was , that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this , to alter and diversifie Church-government and Discipline , so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms , Common-weales , Countreys custome , commodity , conveniencie ? And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned , we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question . And whereas you quote in the Margine , 1 Cor. 14. 40. & 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government & Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government : Alas , brother , these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies , as sutable to the Civil government ; which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation . Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth , that all things be done decently and in order , according to those rules they had received of him : to which agreeth the other place alledged by you , Other things will I set in order when I come , as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete , that he might set in order the things that remained ; but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government , and choice of Officers . And we should have a mad world of it , if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline , as should most sute with their particular conditions . This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping , turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches , into a temporal and secular Kingdom , or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny , or Hierarchy , so as by this means it came to passe , that the second Beast ascending out of the earth , to wit , the Pope , ( Revel. 13. 11. ) commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image , that is , to set up a forme of Religion and Church-government , sutable to the Image of the first Beast , to wit , the Imperiall State of Rome . And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government , in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy . So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage . According to that , Licentia sumus omnes deteriores : this brings not liberty , but licentiousnesse . Your second Question is : Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell , Synod and Parliament , upon serious debate , elect such a publick Church-government , Rites , Discipline , as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word , to the Laws , Government under which they live , and manners of their people , and then settle them by a generall Law ; all particular Churches , members of that Kingdome and Nation , be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity , readily to submit thereto , and no wayes to seek an exemption from it , under pain of being guilty of arrogancie . schisme , contumacie , and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences . I answer : That is , Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England , &c. The summe is , you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government , or a mixt Church-government , partly , according to Gods word ; and partly to the Laws and government under which we live ; and partly , to the manners of the people . Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam . Or , populout placerent , &c. Truly , brother , your very question is hereticall , you must pardon the expression , which otherwise would not come home to the full truth . And your word Elect , imports no lesse . For Elect taken in that sense , as you here apply it , to set up a form of Religion , of Church-government , and Discipline , with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State , and manners of the people : and , AS MEN CONCEIVE , is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election ; or , as you say , As they conceive . For you say not , Such a Church-government , &c. as is most consonant to Gods word : but such as they conceive to be most consonant . So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit , or opinion of consonancy with Gods word , and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy . Just like the Prelate of Canterbury , who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author , and the opinion we have ( saith he ) of his sufficiency . Which I have noted in my Reply . But thus you open a wide sluce , to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld , vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception , what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word . Thus might Henry 4. the late French King ( to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties ) apostatize from the Protestant Religion , and turn to Popery , as conceiving it sutable to the word of God , to comply with the State of France , and the manners of the people , for the establishing of his kingdome ( as he conceived , though he was deceived ) by becoming himself a Popish King . And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word , to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State , and to the manners of the people , who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition , as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment , Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest . Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God . That the maintaining of such a liberty as you assume here , is so , we have in part shewed already from the Scripture , whence you are not able to bring the least shadow of reason to maintain it . Nay , we need go no further for the disfranchising of this your liberty , but your own words . Your words are asistata , they cannot cohere in any true Theologicall sense . For first , we ought not to assume , or pretend a liberty , as left us of God , when we want our evidence , and are not able to produce our Charter out of the Magna Charta , the Scripture . And this , brother , not you , nor any man can do . Again , nothing is more presumptuous ; then to attempt to mingle heaven & earth together , that is , to mingle Christs Kingdom with the kingdoms of the world , or to these to frame and fashion that , which what is it else , but to set up a Babylonish Church-government . Did the Apostles thus ? Did they frame Christs Kingdom & Church-government to the laws and customes of the Romance Empire ? Or did they vary their orders for Church-government & Discipline , according to the different manners and customes of those Nations , countreys or Provinces where they planted their Churches ? Had they one order for the Church of Corinth , and another for the Churches of Galatia , and a third for the Churches of Asia and the rest ? No : But * so ordain I in all Churches , saith the Apostle . And * concerning the collection for the Saints , as I have given order to the Churches of Galatia , even so do ye . So also for making of Ministers and other Church-officers , Act. 1. & 14. 23. Again , Your Church-government must be conceived to be consonant to Gods Word , yet with this restriction or limitation , that it be also consonant to the Laws and Government under which we live . You speak indeed like a pure Lawyer , & one that will stand for your Profession , were this the way to uphold it . But cannot your Law , and our Gospel cotton together , unlesse the Gospel weare the Laws livery , like to your Serjeants gown , made up of two severall colours ' ; or unlesse Law and Gospel be woven together into a linsey woolsey garment ? But what if your Law present , stand still in force for Church-government , without being repealed ? Must the Gospel be brought again under your Prelaticall Church-government ? Or rather why should not a generall law ( to use your words ) be enacted , to inhibite all formes of Church-government and Discipline , which are not every way consonant to Gods Word , without this addition , And to the Laws and Government under which we live ? For certainely , if the Lawes and Government of the State under which we live , be good and just , there is no need why you should put upon Christs kingly Government in his Church , such hard conditions , as not to be admitted , but so farre as it is consonant to mans Laws . As Tertullian said , when upon the Emperour Tiberius his motion to the Romane Senate , that Christ might be admitted and enrowled among Romes gods , and the Senate refused , because they had made a Law , that none should be chosen for a god , unlesse first propounded by the Senate : Ergo nisi homini placuerit , Deus non erit Deus ; Therefore if it please not man , God shall not be God . So let it be lawfull for me to say ; If it please not man , not the Senate , Christ shall not be King , his kingdome shall have no place in this or that Nation . As if the good Laws of a civill State , and the good Laws of Christs kingdome , could not , ought not to stand together in their distinct forms unmixed ; when certainly a State stands strongest , while most consonant to Gods Word , and to the Church-government and Discipline of Christ , and not when Christs kingdome and Government is made sutable to the Laws and customes of the State . Famous was that Answer of Eleutherius , Bishop of Rome , to Lucius King of Britaine , when this Countrey of Britaine first received the faith ( being the first Province that received it ) where the Gospel began freely to be preached , without impeachment or inhibition of the Prince ( as the * Story saith ) and that without any ceremonies at all : King Lucius sending to E●eutherius for some modell , or form of Church-Government and Discipline : he received this Answer ; That Christ had left sufficient Order in the Scripture for the Government of the Church ; and not onely for that , but also for the regiment of his whole Realme , if he would submit himself to follow that Rule . You require of us ( saith he ) the Romane Ordinances , with the Imperiall Statutes also to be sent unto you , which you desire to practise : The Romane Laws we may find to be faulty , but Gods Laws never . You have received of late through Gods mercy , in the Realme of Britaine , the law and faith of Christ ; you have with you both volumes of the Scriptures : Out of them therefore by Gods grace , and the counsell of your Realm , take you a law , and by that law through Gods sufferance rule your kingdome . Now this Eleutherius being the 14th Bishop of Rome , by Platina's account , it shews unto us the great difference between that , and after-times , wherein the Mystery of Iniquity grew up to its height , in assuming such an unlimited liberty to set up such a Church-Government , and ceremonies of humane invention , as were haled in by the head and shoulders . But brother Prinne , you see here , how in those purer primitive times , even the Bishop of Rome himselfe was so farre from admitting a Church-Government sutable to the severall lawes and customes of every Nation , ( as you would have it ) as he tels King Lucius , he hath both the Testaments , by the rule whereof he should not onely see the Church to be governed , but his own Realme also . Ergo , the Kingly government of Christ in his Church is not to be fashioned and moulded according to the lawes and customes of temporall and civill States , but contrarily the lawes of Civill States are to be reduced to the rule of Gods Word . But you adde also , And manners of their people : that is , in their severall Countries , and Common-weales . Surely this reflects mine eye upon that Reformation begun in King Edwards reigne . But now what Church-Government and Discipline was to be set up ? Why , the manners of the people must be the line and plummet to regulate this building by . The people of England had beene so long rooted in a superstitious Egyptian soyle : but because fat , and filling their flesh-pots with Onions and Garlick , they could the better brook the burthens which their Taskma●●ers the Prelates inured their shoulders withall . And withall they must have their Masse-Service , though translated out of the Roman into the English language . This in King Edward his letter to the Cornishmen , standing up for their Masse-book , stilled the babes when they understood the English Service-booke was no other then the Romish Masse clad in an English weed , though since it hath put off many of those ragges , but not all it should . So much it importeth , to have an eye to the peoples manners , and how they stand affected . When the Lord Cromwell had set forth the Primmer , or Psalter , without the Letany , all the Popishly affected , which were not a few , could not be quiet till they had cried up the Letany again into its old place . So as in sine , through the love of superstition in the people , and the love of the world in the Prelats ( alias the Reformers , many of whom afterwards God reformed and purged in the flames of Martyrdome ) such a Reformation was set up , as for Church-government and Discipline ( onely translating the Popes headship , and setting it upon the Kings shoulders ) was the very same with that which was in Henry 8. his dayes , and is at this day in Rome ; and did so well sute with the Civill Government and manners of the people , that a Generall Law was enacted for the ratifying of that Prelaticall Government and Discipline , which hath bred such manners in the people generally to this day , as if another Reformation shall be set up , wherein the peoples manners shall be no lesse looked upon , then in the former ( as you here doe more then seeme to plead for ) I can conjecture , if not certainly divine , what a Reformation both for Church-Government and Discipline , your Church of England is like to have . For if you aske the Prelaticall party , consisting of multitudes of their Priests , and of their ignorant and prophane people , together with all the Kings Army , they will all with one voyce and vote , roare it out at the Canons mouth , W will have the Bishops Church-government and Discipline continued without alteration . If ye aske the ordinary Protestant professors at large , they cry , No , no ; not that ; but we will have such a Church-government , as under which we may injoy no lesse libertie for our manners , then we had under the Prelates . But you referre us to the serious debate of a Nationall Counsell , Synod , Parliament . But yet give us leave to put a vast difference between all these , and the Scripture , Christs owne voyce . If they truely informe us of the minde of Christ in the Scripture , we will blesse God for it : but yet if we can find out the mind of Christ by his immediate voyce , we dare not suspend our beliefe and practise of it , until we have it at the second hand from men . And should we waite never so long upon the issae of their debate , commended unto us to be such as men conceive to be agreeable and cons●nant to Gods Word : yet for as much as we dare not * pinne our soules upon mens sleeves , as not knowing ( as one said ) whither they might possibly carry them : therefore we must examine all mens determinations in matters of Religion by * searching the Scriptures , and laying every thing to this line and rule . For the Bereans are commended , as the more noble , in that they examined diligently and daily , even the Apostles doctrine by the Scriptures : and much more are wee to try the spirits of men , that are not Apostles , and so not immediately inspired by the Holy Ghost with infallibility of truth , as never any Generall Councell after the Apostles hath been So as you know how miserably and shamefully Generall Councels have erred . The first Councell of Nice , consisting of 318. Bishops , how did they all agree to bring in a Doctrine of Devills , prohibiting Priests marriage , had not one Confessor , Paphnutius , by evidence of Scripture , and reason , cryed it downe , and so swayed the whole Councell ? And you know very well , that Generall Councels , as well as Nationall , have not infallibilitie of judgement in all things . And it cannot be unknowne to you , that even this Assembly of Divines are of different judgements about Church-governement and Discipline ; nor have they perhaps had so much time since their being under the Prelacy , as to be throughly informed of the way of Churches , commonly called Independent , but that many of them may possibly gaine much more knowledge of it , by spending some more time and study in it . But Sir , besides all this , you seeme to lead them such a way , ( should they follow you ) as would necessarily bring them into an inevitable and inextricable errour , in case they should elect such a publick Church-government , Rites , Discipline , as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word , to the Lawes , Government under which we live , and manner of the people . For if they looke upon the manner of the people , which they must needs finde to bee for the most part very loose ( to speake nothing of Ignorants and Popish Malignants ) some men might conceive , that such a Church-government and Discipline were most sutable , as doth most comply with , and give some indulgence to such manners , as cannot easily be brought to enter in at the straite gate , and narrow way , that leads into Christs kingdome . And whatsoever Church-government and Discipline comes not full home in all things to the word of God , is not that which is consonant thereunto ▪ and so not pleasing unto God ; and the more consonant it is to Gods Word , the more strict and holy it will be found to be , and so the lesse consonant to the common prophane manners of this Nation at this day . Worthy of our observation is that of the Lord to the Prophet Jeremy , Jere. 15. 19. If thou take forth the pretions from the vile , thou shalt be as my mouth ; let them returne unto thee , but returne not thou unto them . Whereupon the most learned Interpreter ( as the learned Beza constantly styles him ) Calvin , among many other excellent observations on this place , thus concludeth ; Summa est , veritatem Dei non debere flecti ad hominum arbitrium , quae Deus non mutatur ▪ ita nec verbum ejus ullam varietatem admittit : The summe is ; That the truth of God ought not to bee bended according to mans will or conceit , because God is not mutable , so neither doth his Word admit of any change . Now the forme of Church-governement and Discipline laid downe in the New Testament , is a Doctrine of Christ , and no more alterable according to the varieties of mens customes and manners in all nations and ages , then the Gospel it selfe is ; which the Apostle would not have to bee altered into another Gospel ; though another Gospel cannot bee ; as neither another kingdome of Christ , another Church-governement , another Church-discipline ought not to be , but that alone which we find in Gods Word , which must not bee reduced or conformed ( as a nose of waxe , to which the Papists , as Hosius , and Pighius doe compare the Scripture ) to the fashions of worldly governments , ( Rom. 12. 2. ) and popular manners , but these must be conformed to the Scripture . Hence it may appeare , how rough your conclusion of this Question is , if to such a generall law , as you propose , all particular Churches , members of this Kingdome and Nation , should not yeeld to be actually obliged in point of conscience , and Christianitie , and readily to submit thereunto , and no waies to seeke an exemption from it , under paine of being guiltie of arrogancy , schisme , c●ntumacy , and lyable to such penalties , as are due to these offences . Good Brother , be not so legall . What if that resolution of an Assembly , and that Generall Law for the confirmation of it , be such ; as the conscience of godly people cannot without sinne submit thereunto ? Must they either violate their consciences , or bee undone by your unavodable intolerable penalties , as both to suffer in their good names for Arrogant , contumatious , Schismatick● , yea and in their Consciences too under the guilt of these , and to bee liable to I wot not what penalties besides ? and no waies to seeke an exemption from it ? Why , good Brother , if we should goe and live under the Turkish Government , and could not in conscience turne Turkes in the Religion there by Law established , yet there is a way to seeke an Exemption from it , namely , by becomming Tributary to that State , as many Christians doe . Good Brother let 's not have any of Dracoes Lawes executed upon Innocents . And remember how not long agoe the Prelates served us ; we could not have the benefit of Law , of Appeale , no exemption from bloud letting , and eare-cropping , and pillorying , &c. And shall wee now turne worse persecutors of the Saints , then the Prelates were ? Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco , saith that heathen Princesse . But in the margent you put some places of Scripture to prove this . But truly , when I well view the places , I find them not to answer to what you would seeme to prove by the Quotation . The first is , 1 Cor. 14. 32 , 33. For the Spirit of the Prophets is subiect to the Prophets . And what of this ? Ergo , the Spirit of all the Prophets in England must be subiect to the Prophets in the Assembly upon paine of being guiltie of Arrogancy , Schisme , Contumacy , and liable to such penalties , as are due to these offences . O brother Prynne , you must as well note , as quote the place . But let me note it for you . The Apostle there speaks both to , and of the Church of Corinth , when assembled together in one place : that the Prophets should observe order , and give place each to other in Prophecying ; as the reason is rendered , and not of any such Assembly of that sublime and supreame Authoritie , or the onely Prophets , to whom all other Prophets wheresoever dispersed must be subject . Ver. 33. For God is not the Author of confusion , but of peace , as in all Churches of the Saints . Which place also is no lesse wide from your purpose . What ? Will there be no peace , but all confusion , unlesse all be subject to the Assembly upon such paine , as before ? The Apostle speaks here of the Order to be observed in every Church , as in all the Churches of the Saints . The other places quoted by you , are no lesse misapplyed . Will they prove , trow you , blind obedience ? But come on brother , ( if you will needs put us upon such hard exigents , as to give us no quarter , without present laying down our Armes and cause , and so captivating our consciences to the Dictates and Decrees of men ; If you will make no covenant with us , but upon this one onely condition , that you might thrust out all our right eyes ; and if there bee no other remedy , yet give us leave to capitulate with you about some terms of accomodation , that wee may not altogether betray our consciences and liberties , which our Redeemer Christ hath so dearly purchased for us . And the first and main is this : First , brother , make it cleare unto us , that an Assembly of men learned , pious , what you will , living in ages succeeding the Apostles , have , or ever had , infallibility of judgement , so as to say , ( as Acts 15. 28. ) It pleased the holy Ghost and Us , to make these Decrees , that so wee may without further scruple of conscience , submit and conforme thereunto . But ( I say ) you must give us very good assurance and evidence hereof , that they are infallibly guided by the holy Ghost , that when they shall say , It pleased the holy Ghost and Us , we may safely believe them . For when you can resolve us of their conclusions no further , then as they conceive to bee consonant to the word of God : Alas ! Sir , you leave us in a Wood , or Maze , whence no extricating of our selves , without Ariadnes thread , Gods word , to set us where wee were before . For you knew what variety of conceits many men have , Quot capita , tot sententiae . This is the first and main condition we stand upon ; and truly it were sufficient alone . We might in a second rank ( but not equall to the former ) name a selfe-deniall , and humble spirit , &c. You know the story of the Monkes of Bangor comming before Austin the first Archbishop of Canterbury , whom they seeing to fit in his Pontificall Chaire , and not rising up , nor moving unto them , they left him as a man no● sent of God : And so , if wee should behold men carrying themselves loftily over their brethren , who are not of their Counsell , we should be apt to suspect that Christs Spirit is not there , because there is not the spirit of humility , neither the Spirit of truth to be found . A Cardinall in the Conclave at Viterbium , after almost three yeares agitation about the election of a new Pope , ( as many yeares as we have been about to set up a Reformation , and the foundation not yet laid ) each Cardinall ambitiously a spiring to be the Pope , * one of them rose up and said , Domine , &c. let us uncover the roose of this Chamber , seeing the holy Ghost cannot get in unto us through so many tiles . But this by the way . And so enough of this question . The third and fourth Questions . I come now to your third and fourth question . But lest my answers may prove too voluminous , and so fastidious to everyday-newes Readers , I shall in the rest contract my selfe . And this I must doe by trussi●g up your questions within the list of a Syllogisme , respectively . For ( as I noted before ) all your questions are rather conclusive then interrogatory , rather positive resolutions , then unresolved questions . The summe therefore of your third and fourth questions ( for this dependeth on that ) is reduced into this Syllogisme : That which hath sufficient ( if not best ) warrant for it in the New Testament , the examples of the Primitive Church , &c. most prevents heresies , schismes , injustice ; is to be received as a true and undoubted Church-Government , and to be preferred before that , which hath no such expresse warrant in Scripture , no patterne for it in the Primitive , or best reformed Churches , &c. But the Presbyteriall forme of Church-government , if rightly ordered , hath sufficient ( if not best ) warrant for it in the New Testament , &c. The Independent not so . Therefore the former is to be preferred and received before the latter , without any long debate . The Answer . Both your Propositions are lame and interfeere one against the other . Sufficient ( if not best ) warrant , will not prove so sufficient a warrant , as if there be found a better . And so your Argument , by crossing shins with it selfe , falleth to ground . Again , your Presbyteriall government hath neither best , nor any sufficient warrant , as wee judge , in the New Testament , no nor any warrant at all in Gods word . But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient , and ( without comparison ) best warrant in the Scripture . And in truth , whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent ( as you call it ) one against the other ; let me tell you , that that which you call Independent , is the onely true , originall , and primitive Presbyteriall . Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christ● and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one , or many over each , or of a Nationall Church , as you terme it . For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens , or in the Old. In the old we read of one Church , to wit , that of the Nation of the Jewes : But that whole Church was one intire congregation , Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all , it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler ; and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem , in the Temple , where they offered Sacrifice , and not else where : So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament , as being both one intire Church and absolute , subject to no other form of government , but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ ; and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have . Every particular Church now , consisting of visible Saints , is under Christ , as the onely Head , King , Governour , Law-giver of it , and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ , his Spirit , his Word . Were there none other particular Church in the world , then one , as that of Abrahams Family , should it not be a compleat Church , untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend ; though for ordinary Families , they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body , & so are bound to unite to others for this end . Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts , and comfort in distresse : but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away , And this communion of Churches doth no lesse ( if not more ) prevent Heresies , Schismes , Injustice , then your Presbyteriall . Nor can you shew reason to the contrary . And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies , Schismes , Injustice ? Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth , There must bee Heresies eve among you , that they which are approved may be made manifest ? And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles , preserve themselves from Heresics ? How soone did the whole world groane and wonder , that it was become an Arian ? And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ , when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries . And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height , as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches , and brought them under his dominion ? And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches ( your Independents ) to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture ; the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side . All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted , were all of absolute ▪ authority amongst themselves respectively , and equall one of the other . You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary . That in Act. 15. is a transcendent , and stands alone , not to be paralleld , and therefore very impertinently objected by many , before you , as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards . And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages , when we find it the pure fountaine . It appeares , say the Centurists , Cent , 1. 7 Tit●de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare , was almost popular , every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out , if neede were , those Ministers they had ord●ined , with other things very materiall in that whole Title , as also in the Title de Synodis privatis . And for the best reformed Churches , if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us , wee cruve leave without prejudice , to take it as wee finde it in the Word , without the least variation . And you may know● , in the beginning of Protestant Reformation , could they ▪ so clearly see in the dawning , as wee may now in the meridian , if we will but open our eyes ? The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for : 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table , nor have a vote as a member of that Church ; but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation : and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them . Secondly , the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations , though with liberty of appeale . And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare , as appeares , Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis : but especially . Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be , if but Christs word alone may take place , without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes , Customes , Manners of the people , as you doe plead . And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice , you know , brother , that if injustice be done in any civill matter , if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church , whereof the parties are members , then the Law is open there to appeale for justice . And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church ▪ or any member thereof , if the censure bee unjust , the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches , who may accordingly deale with their Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse , as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases . And if it be in matter of opinion , here the appeale lies principally and in the first place , to the Scripture , as the supreme Judge ; and if the things be obscure , & too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture , then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information . And in summe , brother , there is no case can fall out in any Church , which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches , wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be : as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches , wherby the liberty of each Church is by cōmon consent sold over to others , by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church of Christ , under his onely jurisdiction and government . So as herby great mischiefes may redound even to the purest Church , when once things come to be carried by the vote of a generall or Classicall Assembly of Divines , swaying things besides the Rule , and stretching them beyond their line . And therefore famous was that saying of Nazianzens , * That he never saw any good to come of generall Councels ; because commonly Camelion-like they change their hue with the nearest object , complying with the condition of the present times , and State : as suppose Prelaticall Spirits should turne to be your Presbyterians , or as when ( in case the Lord Christ shall resume his Kingdome over his Churches in a civill State ) we should perhaps see some of your Presbyterians as fast to turn Independants , were the preferments sutable . But some may object , that one Church standing by it selfe , is more subject to fall into errour , then when combined with other Churches . To which I answer ; That every particular Church injoying its own freedome , without any injoyned combination with other Churches , may much longer preserve it selfe from danger of errour , when it hath its free choise in matters of difference or difficulty , to consult onely with those Churches , which it knows to be most sound and orthodox , then when it is fast bound , and incircled with this or that combination of Churches , being in number twelve or twenty , or more or lesse , whose votes must carry every controversie , according to the severall humours of such and such , at all adventure . And ( brother Prynne ) the world is not so plentifull of sound spirits , as to supply every Hundred in the Land with twelve or twenty able and godly Ministers to be of a combination . Nay , you may observe what poore shifts are used for the supplying of places with godly and able Ministers , which are grown so geason , that the City now is faine to be supplyed with plundered countrey Ministers , in stead of their out-cast Malignants : And suppose all these to be as good as they should be , where shall those country-places be supplyed ? And besides , such is the penury of good Ministers ( if not of care to provide better , if possible ) that such as are for their demerits cast out of one place , are ( for I wot not what merits ) put upon some other people , where their good qualities are not knowne . Being such as verifie the Proverb , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ; They change their mansion , but not their manners . And besides all this , he is one very meanly gifted now adayes , that will be wooed and won to take a Benefice under a hundred or sixescore pounds . And brother , why should godly Ministers indeed be yoked with such earth-wormes , and Mammonists , as are in some Parishes , and as some of your Presbyterian combinations would necessitate us unto ? If you say , if things goe amisse in lesser Classes , they may be remedied in a generall Assembly : then I say , there is the like reason of a generall Assembly , that there is of all the severall classes put together . For , totius & partium eadem est ratio ; if all the members be corrupt , so also must the whole body be . Therefore the case must needs be hard , when one or two Churches in a classis or combination , that are sound , should be bound to the decisions of the rest being unsound ; and so for the generall Assembly in the like proportion . The fifth Question . It is reduced thus ; That , whose grounds and reasons tend inevitably to endanger , overthrow , and embroyle Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government , ought not to be suffered . But such is the Independent church-government : it tends inevitably , &c. Therefore it ought not to be suffered , I deny the Assumption : The grounds and reasons of true church-government , do not in their own nature tend to the indangering , overthrowing , and embroiling of Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government ( Horm . confess . sect. 11. of the confess . of A●spurg . art . 7. ) Power Ecclesiasticall no more hindreth the civill , then the skill of musicke , neither is it to be confounded with civill . And ibid. They , to wit , the Prelates , transforme the church into a humane Government . For they would doe all in imitation of civill Government . But if they produce any such effect , it is onely accidentall , and the maine cause is in such Ecclesiasticall or civill bodies , when they shew some antipathy in their constitution to Christs kingdome and government , by their opposing or oppressing of it . Hereupon Christ saith ; * Think not that I am come to send peace on the earth ; I came not to send peace , but a sword . And it was the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdome , both by Christ , and his Apostles , for which they were exclaimed against , and persecuted , as troublers of the State , both Ecclesiastick and Politick , as movers of sedition , and perverters of the people , and the like . And will you thereupon conclude , that the preaching of the Gospel , and setting up of Christs kingdome in his churches , is a troubler of the State , and a mover of sedition , and a seducer of the people , because Hierarchicall Government hath an Antipathy with Christs Spirituall Kingdome , and Church-government ? The sixth Question . The summe where of is : That which from the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel downwards , till this present age , had no being in the world , can doubtlesse be no Church-Government of Christs , or his Apostles . But such ( say you ) is the Government of Independent Churches . Therefore not Christs ; or the Apostles Church-government . I deny your Assumption . And for further answer thereto , I referre you to my Answer to your third and fourth Question , where is cleerely proved , that all the Churches , founded and planted by Christ and his Apostles , were in themselves respectively absolute and free Churches , which though they had communion with all their Sister-Churches , yet you can never prove your classicall , or Synodicall Jurisdiction of either a Provinciall Church ( as you call it ) or a Generall Counsell over every particular Church , to have the least footing , or beeing at all in the Scripture . 2. In the Ecclesiasticall Histories for the first 200. yeers we finde ( as was noted above ) sufficient ground for it ; but none for the combined coercive Presbytery ; let that be shewn ; afterwards indeed , as times grow worse , you finde your P●r●archall , Metropoliticall , Prelaticall , Nationall , Provinciall church-governments , Generall and Provinciall councels , subordination and subjection of the lesser Churches to the greater , by which very meanes the Papall Antichristian kingdome came gradually to be erected ; ( as is noted before ) but can you shew us the least print of one footstep in the Word of God , of any such Hierarchie , or of any such subordination and subjection of one Church to another ; And if the mystery of iniquity began to worke even in the Apostles own times , which was the very Hierarchie it selfe , in the affection of Primacy ; as we see practised by Di●trepes , who is noted to bee {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , a lover of Primacy , or preheminence , and that even above the Apostle John himselfe ; with other like sutable practises ; This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees , after the Apostles were dead , and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth , as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas , overflowing every where : Therefore were there never such Churches extant ? But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story , which yet we have proved the contrary , neverthelesse , you know brother , when a mans evidences of lands are lost , there be publicke Records , as the Rowles of Chancerie , where they may be found againe . And if there they be found , will you not allow them , because the man cannot otherwise shew them ? Now we have the sacred Scripture , where our Evidences are safely recorded . Suffice it then , that there we shew them . The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten , as the Papists doe . And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time ( and that in short time after the Apostles ) to lose their liberties ; I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose ( who lived within the fourth Century ) upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga , & postea Ecclesia , &c. The Iewes Synagogue , and afterwards the ▪ Christian Church had Elders , without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church . Which by what neglect it grew out of use , I know not , unlesse is were perhaps the sl●ath , or rather pride of the Teachers , whilst , alone , they would seeem to be some body . So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed . I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records , as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe : But this one , from such a reverend and ancient author too , of pious memory , may serve instead of many ; considering also that this is the greater rarity , and antiquity , and much to be wondred at , how it escaped the expurgatorie Index , by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity , that they did not quite expunge this record also , that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine . Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of , was particular Congregation , answerable to the Synagogue , governed by the Counsell of its own Elders , cannot be denyed . Whereby all men may ▪ cleerly see , in how short a time the Governement of Churches , instituted by Christ and his Apostles , came to bee changed from being free Churches , to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater , the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church , as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs , as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges , yea and of Crist their King , his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy ▪ or Oligarchill Tyranny , mixed of two of the worst forms of Government ; though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best ; but I suppose you would have said , instead of Oligarchy , ( having named Monarchicall , and Aristocraticall ) Democratie : Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two . But enough of this . The seventh Question . Thus reduced ▪ Those Churches , which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government , dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches , Dioceses , Provinces , but doe gather , Churches not out of Infidels , but of men already converted to ▪ and setled in the Chiristian faith , and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant ; no one example , or direct Scripture , Reason , or Authority can be produced , to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them . But such are the Independent Churches , they do not conforme as afore ; Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them . The Argument ( or Question ) containes many branches , scarce reducible to one head : but I have bundled them in one coard , as well as I could. And for answer , first this Question is coincident with all that went before , and so is already in that respect answered . Secondly , Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick , is not grounded on Scripture ; for neither God taught , neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another , though they might have done it , and had need of it , as being in times of persecution ( which hindered it not , no more then it doth in France now ) 2. You confidently affirm , that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much , which is manifestly untrue , as hath been shewed before . 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them , what is this to churches that are far distant one from another , and never had such a ground of relation one to another ? Besides the Harmonie of confessions , which you quote for you ▪ ( though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point ) yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes , that the Keyes are committed to each particular , even the least Ecclesiasticall Society . Thirdy , Christs true churches here on earth , are not to be * limited to this or that place ; as , because there are so many Parishes , Dioceses , Provinces , in a civill State , therfore those must be so many fixed , Parocihall , Diocesan , Provinciall churches . And here , Brother Prynne , would reduce ( tanquam ex postliminio ) the Provinciall , Diocesan , Parochiall church ▪ Government , to the same forme it had before ? Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops ▪ with their Diocesan Bishops , and Parochiall clergie , or Priests set up again ? For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall , and a Diocese to its Diocesan , and a Parish ( to speak in the old Dialect ) to its Parish-Priest . Da veniam verbo . And as for division of Provinces , Dioceses , and Parishes , into so many churches , you know where and when it began . For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division : which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion ; when now all that dwelt together in every Parish , and so in every Diocese , who ever they were , Tag , and Rag , must make up a church , as so many members do one body : whereas the churches planted by the Apostles , were called and gathered out of the wide world , where the Word of God came , and took place . So as not every citie became a church , but so many as were called in every citie . Paul writes not to all in Corinth , but to the church there , consisting of the Saints only . But you object the gathering of churches , not of Infidels , but of men already converted to , and setled in the christian faith , of which forme of congregating churches , you say you could never discern example , or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces . We would gladly say Amen to that assertion , that the whole Nation is christian , established in the faith ; but if not , you dispute ex falso supposito . May it please you then , brother , to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself , and of the Apostles , who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church : which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point ; and so much the more , when they consider this is a time of Reformation , and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other , in reforming not only our selves , but all others within our line , according to the word of God . And again , the case between our Reformation at this time , and that of the Jewes church , is much alike : For as th a was the Gospell-Reformation , so is this ; as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the Jewes , as acknowledged Christ to be their onely King and Law-giver , to govern consciences and churches by his Word , when the rest of that church , even the main body of it , did reject Christ , and renounce him for their King , this being the very Title set over him on his crosse , for which they crucified him : So the preaching up of Christs Kingdome in these dayes , is that which calleth and gathereth those unto Christ , who acknowledge him alone for their King to govern them ; and this out of those , that doe not , or will not submit unto his Kingly government , but depend upon the sole determination of men , what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the Land , which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the Realme , and manners of the people . But there is yet one thing more , for which you say , you can see no ground , and that is particular church-government . Why , brother , why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted , whether explicit or implicit ? It is the churches wisedome and care , yea , conscience and duty too , as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them , though but in the least degree , yet in truth , so far as we may discern them to be Saints : for such onely are fit members of a church , or body of Christ , so as to partake of those holy Ordinances of Christ , which none but visible Saints ought to partake of . And who are fit to receive the Seales of the covenant , but such as professe to be in covenant ? And surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant , as being ashamed thereof , with what conscience can the Church admit them into fellowship ? And you know this is a time of Reformation , and we have long been under a yoke of Antichristian-government , and of humane ordinances in the worship of God ; wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our Baptisme : Now , doth not reason require , that we should renew our covenant in our own persons , when we come to enter into the way of Reformation , and that in as full a manner as possibly we can ? And when the people of God came out of Babylon to inhabit Ierusalem again , they made a covenant among themselves , when seeking the way with their faces thitherward , they say , Come and let us joyn ourselves to the Lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten . The case is ours in a great measure , who are now inquiring the war to Sion , with our faces thitherward ; and shall we be abashed to come to Sion from all the reliques of Babylon , and not incite one another , as they did , to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the Lord Christ , as our onely King not to be forgotten ? And the like wee read Ezra 10. 5. and Nehem. 9. 38. so did King Asa , 2 Chron. 15. 12. Now if any require an example hereof in the New Testament , I answer , what needs it , when wee have it in the Old ? What example have we in the New Testament for baptizing of Infants ? Yet having a * commandement in the Old for circumcising the Infants of beleeving Abraham , as being included in the same covenant with faithfull Abraham ▪ the intaile of this Covenant never yet out off , but reaching to all Abrahams seed , walking in the steps of Abrahams faith now under the Gospel ; infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant , have the same right unto baptisme , as being within the covenant , which the infants of beleeving ▪ Abraham had unto circumcision ( in stead whereof baptisme by Gods institution succeeded ) and this by a strict charge and command from God ( Gen. 17. 13 , 14. ) which is as strong now for baptizing of Infants of beleeving parents , as it was to the infants of beleeving Abraham for circumcision . Again , what example , yea or precept is there of giving women the Lords Supper in the New Testament ? yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence . But this by the way . And to conclude this point , what reason can any man bring against this particular Church-covenant ? And if any doe disrelish it , they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe , and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned , though no other reason can be given of it , but a Nolumus : such as the Jewes gave when they said of Christ , Nolumus : * We will not have this man to reigne over us . Which speech was the more notorious , as being delivered by an Embassage , a solemne act of State of the Eldership , and they his own Citizens , though a little after ( vers. 27. ) he declares them his enemies , and for this very thing , that they would not hee should reigne over them , commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him . But this by the way , though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation . Object . But it will be said , wee have covenanted already in the Nationall Covenant . Answ. This is against things upon supposition , that we were convinced of the evill of them , but not about our own persons , as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the Lord Iesus . 2. This was put in by such outward authority , that many for feare tooke it , which a Church-covenant under the Gospell ( where the people are to be such as come willingly ) will not beare ; for under the Law indeed there was another order , but appointed by God , that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their ▪ fathers : but our fathers were over-awed , and secondly , no such order now . The eighth Question . This question , though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches , yet the scope being to prove a Nationall Church , and so a common Presbyterian Classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , and thereby an apparent subversion of the Novell Independent invention . ( These are your words . ) The whole I reduce into form thus : Where there bee infallible proofes of Nationall Churches , there of necessity must be a common Presbyterian , Classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , to the apparent subversion of the NOVEL INDEPENDENT INVENTION . But there be infallible proofes of Nationall Churches ; as the Catholick Church , the Nationall Church of the Jewes , the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles , Acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the Churches ; seconded with all Oecumenicall , Nationall , Provinciall Councels , Synods , and the Church-government exercised throughout the world in all Christian Realmes , States , from their first reception of the Gospell , till this present ; compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least , &c. Therefore there must be of necessity , a common Presbyterian Classicall government , to which particular Congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions . Now for answer to this large Argument , brieflly : And first , to the Proposition . I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes , or one proof , that there either are , or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution , but meerly humane ; nor any one of divine institution , but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament , and now wholly dissolved ; of which we have spoken sufficiently before : And which also was not onely Nationall , but in a manner Oecumenick and universall , as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now ; for then there would be a Pope , as there was an high Priest then &c. And brother , you must give us leave to stand upon this , as for our lives , that we dare not admit of any Churches , as the true and genuine Churches of Christ , which are not of his owne institution , that is , such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word , and by that Scepter of his swayed , and by that alone Law of his governed . And therefore be intreated , good brother , not to presse upon us such your Churches , whose not onely institution in their severall divisions , but government also in their combinations , is meerly humane , and therefore as a house founded on a sand , which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture , or assure yourselfe , if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government , and dwell there , he will bring an old house upon his head , when God shall begin to storm it . But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption , for the proofe of your Nationall Church . The first is , the Catholicke Church throughout the world . What is this to a Nationall Church ? Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world , yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall . The second instance is , the Nationall Church of the Jewes , and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches ; as before we have shewed . For bring us any one Nationall , that is one intire Church , or congregation , as that of the Jewes was : or , that is of one family , as that was : or , that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome , as that was : or , that is the universall Church of God visible on earth , as that was : or , that is governed by the like lawes , that that was : when your selfe doe confesse , that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes , Customes , Manners , and not by Gods word alone ; whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law , and not at all by the Lawes of men , untill it came to be corrupted , contrary to the expresse Law of God . And you confesse also , that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable , according to the Lawes , Customes , Manners of severall Nations : whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable , till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy . In a word , your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude , consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons , being as a confused lu●p , whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre , so as the whole is miserably soured , and the flowre made altogether unsavoury : But that of the Iewes , in its naturall and externall constitution , was all holy , * an holy Nation , a Royall Priesthood , a peculiar People , * all the congregation holy , every one of them : So as in no one particular , doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes , no not in the least resemblance ▪ Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles , Elders , and Brethren at Ierusalem , Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees , to the Churches . And what of this , brother ? Therefore Nationall Churches , or generall Councels , or Provinciall , have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees , and send them to the Churches ? Why , first of all , that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative . Secondly , neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell . Thirdly , being an Assembly of the Apostles ▪ with the Elders and Brethren , it could not erre : for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement , being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly , and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations . And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that ? Had euer any Councell besides that , infallibility of judgement ? Shew it , brother , and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees , and wee will submit unto them . Nay , dare any Assembly of men on earth , say , It seemed good to the holy Ghost , and Us ? That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy , the Roman lying Oracle . But in your second thoughts , you traverse this * place more largely , which wee shall consider when we come to it . In the mean time , what I have here and before said , may suffice to stay the Readers stomace . But you adde , All this is seconded with all Occumenicall , Nationall , Provinciall Councels , Synods , and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes , States , &c. Alas , brother , all these put together , are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly ; they cannot hold the least proportion with it , to make a second to that unsampled sample , though they make never so great a summe . And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question , to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention , ( these be your words ) we have proved it to be neither mans Invention , but Gods own institution , nor Novell , as having its foundation in the New Testament ; nor yet Independent , otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority , or jurisdiction out of it self ; not upon any such conformity to humane lawes , or customes , or manners of every Nation or people , as you speake of . Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall , by saying , Historians often speake of the Churches in England : for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations , but the material Temples : but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people ; and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches , as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne . The ninth Question . Thus reduced in summe : That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining , supplying , instituting new Rites , Orders , Canons , &c. for the Churches peace and welfare , they transmitted to posteritie : But the Apostles had and used such liberty &c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world , in all ages succeeding the Apostles , in ordaining , supplying , instituting new Rites , Orders , Canons , for the Churches peace and welfare . I answer to the Proposition : 1. That the Apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling , planting , ordering , and regulating of Churches , but what they had immediarely given them by Christ , and his Spirit . 2. This liberty so given them reached no further , then to those things onely which were given them in charge , and which they accordingly , as faithfull Stewards , did practise concerning the Churches . Even as Christ himselfe , being the Son of God , and set over his house , was faithfull in all things , doing nothing , but what he had by speciall Commission and Command from the Father . So as ▪ if the Son himselfe , God blessed for ever , took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased , as Mediator , though as the Sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with God the Father ; but did every thing as he had received commandment from him ▪ how much lesse have the servants of God any liberty to doe what pleaseth them , but that , and those things alone , which they have in command from their Master . If therefore they who prosesse to succeed the Apostles in their severall generations , will challenge the same liberty , which the Apostles had and used about the Churches of God , they must first of all shew us their immediate Commission from Christ , as the Apostles had . Secondly , They must all shew us , that what they doe in Church-matters , under colour and pretence of Apostolicall liberty , is none other , but what they have by expresse command from Christ by his Spirit . And thirdly , because they are not able to shew this , they must use their liberty no further , then the lists and limits of Scripture doe permit , which holds forth an exact and perfect rule , for all precisely to observe , without the least variation . As knowing that severe law of God , often used in Scripture , and wherewith , as with a bounder-stone , the whole Book of God is closed up , and that with a solemne protestation of Christ himselfe : If any man shall adde unto these things , God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book ; And if any man shall diminish ought thereof , God shall take away his part out of the book of life , and out of the Holy Citie . But some will haply object ; This is meant , not in point of Church-government , Discipline , Rites , Ceremonies , as left to mans liberty to ordaine , adde , supply , institute , according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every Nation ; but in matter of Doctrine , Story , and Prophecy . To which I answer ( though sufficiently noted before , and now in one word ) if God were so exact about the forme of the Tabernacle , ( a type of Christs Church under the Gospell ) to have all things observed according to the Patterne , even unto the least pin ; what reason can any reasonable man give , why Christ , the same Law-giver ▪ and patterne it selfe , should be lesse carefull over his Church in the New Testament , so as to leave it at six and seven , to the liberty of all Kingdomes and Nations of the world , to set up in the Church what Government , Discipline , Rites , Ceremonies , Canons , they pleased , upon what pretence soever as for the Churches peace and welfare ? Hath not the opening of this one sluce , let in such an Inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind , as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour ? Therefore , my deare brother Prinne , assure your selfe , not all the wits , not all the learning in the world , will be able to assert this your assertion , but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight ; and there ▪ brother ▪ let it lie , or father die , and bury it there , whence it came . All that Christ appointed is exactly to be followed , though Christ was not so ●●act in circumstantials under the Gospell ; because 1. That was a typicall and figurative worship . 2. Christ now looks more to substantialls , Joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict , 1 Cor. 5. And where you say , that as in the Apostles times , Christians multiplied , so also their Churches , Church-Officers , and their Church-Government , Discipline varied : Consider that here was no variation of the Rule ; but by degrees the rule of Church-government and Discipline was perfected , not varied . The Temple was seven yeares in building , first hewing , squaring , then erecting stone after stone , timber after timber ▪ each in his proper place , here was no variation of the frame and forme of the Temple all this while , but the worke went up day by day , till it came to perfection , according to the patterne in writing given to David by the Spirit . Even so , while the spirituall Temple is framing , the daily goings up of it by order after order , and rule after rule , is no variation , but a graduall tending to perfection , till all be finished ; as we now see the whole frame of Church-government for all true Evangelicall Churches so compleated in the New Testament , as nothing under the paine aforesaid , may either be diminished , or added to it . And the same Orders are prescribed to all the Churches ; So ordaine I in all Churches , saith the Apostle , 1 Cor. 7. 17. So for the collection for the Saints , and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings ( as before ) the same order he gives to the Church of Corinth which he doth for the Churches of Galatia , 1 Cor. 16. 1 , 2. So Officers chosen and ordayned in every Church , Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. 7. So as if one Church for the smalnesse of it have fewer Officers , and another Church for the largenesse of it more in number ( as the Church in Jerusalem had need of seven Deacons , both for the magnitude of the Congregation , and the multitude of the poore therein , Act. 6. ) yet this makes no variation in the forme of Church-government , as differing one from another either for substance , or circumstance , saving onely socundum magis & minus , as a little man is a man , as well as the tallest man . In a word , those Arguments , which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words , with their Ergoes , for as much as they are of your own devising , I therefore leave them with you to consider better of them . Onely one I cannot passe by , without wrong to Christ , to his word , to his Spirit , to his Apostles . Every man ( say you ) in his Infancy , is borne destitute of Religion , of the use of speech , reason , understanding , faith , legs , &c. Ergo , He ought to continue so , when he is growne a man . Yet this is the maine Argument of some Independents ; say you : O brother ! Of what Independents ? As whence this Argument ? Because they hold , that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact Rule , Gods Word , for the government of Churches ? And doe you compare the Scripture ( as it was in the Apostles time ) to a child in his Innocency , destitute , & c ? So as , if we will not transgresse the bounds of Scripture for Church-government , we doe as much in effect , as argue , Every man in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion , &c. Ergo , he ought to continue so , when he is growne a man ? We dare goe no further , then the Scripture leads us ; therefore we are a company of Infants . Good brother , call in these extravagants . 2. We say the Churches were as perfect then as ever since ; they had all Ordinances , the most eminent Officers , the most large gifts , &c. and as many in a place called to the Faith , as can be shewen in any one place since , to have come in voluntarily to the Gospell , Act. 8. 10. 12. Chap. 21. 20. The tenth Question . This Question is reduced thus ; Such as cannot produce any one solid reason , why they ought not ( in point of conscience ) willingly submit to a Presbyteriall Government , in case it shall be established among us , by the generall consent of the Synod , and Parliament , as most consonant to Gods Word , the Lawes & Government of our Realme : ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy , Singularitie , Arrogancy , self-ends , and peremptory Schisme . But Independents cannot produce any one solid reason , why they ought not so to doe , as aforesaid . Therefore Independents ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of Obstinacy , Singularity , Arrogancy , self-ends , and peremptory Schisme . Now truly brother , a heavie charge you lay upon those poore creatures you doe so becall Independents . As 1. of Obstinacy . If that be obstinacy , against mens consciences not to yield blind obedience to mens commands in point of Religion . 2. Of singularity . If that be singularity , for a few to enter in at the strait gate , and to walk in at the narrow way . If that be singularity , to doe that which the multitude will not doe : to ●o●ne under the government of Christs Kingdome , in the Government of our consciences , and of his Churches which is a Principle ▪ you your selfe in termes cannot , dare not deny . 3. Of Arrogancy : If that be Arrogancy , for one Church not to exalt it selfe over another , or for Pastors not to Lord it over their flocks . 4. Of selfe-ends : If that be self seeking ▪ which ( if any other ) is a self-denying , and a taking up of our crosse dayly , as Malefactors ready to be crucified , as without which resolution wee cannot follow Christ . If that be selfe-seeking , to strip our selves of the preferments and favours of the world , to be exposed naked to the reproach of all , to be accounted the out-casts of the world , and the off-scouring of all things , as at this day . And lastly , Of peremptory schisme : If that be schisme whereby we ought to separate our selves from all doctrines contrary to what is delivered , Rom. 16 , 17. and so farre as is possible , from all the ●udiments of the world , from the Ordinances of men , which are not a●ter Christ , that so wee might adhere to him , and walke in him , being taught by him , as the t●●th is in Iesus . But ●o● , that these Independents should undergoe all these , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , hard speeckes , and yet not to be able to shew one solid rason for it , surely then , a fools cap and a bell were fittest for them . But I hope , brother , if you have but read hitherto , and well weighed in a just ballance , the many reasons we have already given you , perhaps in some of them at least , if not in all , you will find something , that may challenge the title of solid , in your clearer and more solid judgment . Now to your Argument ▪ First of all I might deny the necessity of the consequence of your Proposition . For it is not necessary that every truth should cease to be truth , because every one cannot shew a solid reason for it . The fire hath an essentiall form , and yet no man can find it ou● , It burneth , yet none can shew a solid reason why . The Martyrs some of them professed they could not dispute for that truth they held : but ( say they ) we can dye for it . And what if that Church-government , which your silly Independents hold , be a truth , and yet some of them not able to shew one solid reason for it ? Must it therefore not bee a truth ? As the Apostle saith ; What if some did not beleeve ? Shall their unbeleefe make the saith of God without effect ? But I flatly deny your Assumption ; and affirme , that your Independents both have , and doe , and can produce many solid Reasons , why they may not , ought not in point of Conscience , willingly submit to such a Presbiteriall Government , as you prescribe , because framed by the generall consent of a Synod and Parliament , conc●●ved by them as consonant to Gods Word , the Lawes and Government of our Realme . One Reason is , Consonant to Gods Word , and conforme to the Lawes of this , or any other Realme , cannot stand together ; as before is shewed . And the reason hereof is , because Christs Kingdome is so transcendent , so absolute , distinct , Independent , ( if you will ) as it is not obliged to conforme and stoop to humane lawes , and peoples manners , as you put a necessity upon it . A second Reason ; because you require obedience to that , which men shall conceive consonant to Gods VVord , &c. Touched also before , and now againe to put you in mind . And therefore upon this ground we ought not in point of conscience to subject and captivate our saith to mens opinions . A third Reason , why we may not doe it , is , because you require absolute obedience to the generall consent of Assembly and Parliament . Now wee dare not pin our faith upon generalitie of mens opinions , The generality of the votes of the Jewes State carried it away , to crucifie their King . If the whole world might vote this day , the generality would be against Christ , as hee is indeed the onely Anoyn●ed King , Priest , and Prophet . What if the generality vote amisse , while yet they may conceive all to bee right , because consonant to what they most ●ffect ? No , though orthodox and godly , as was shewed before in the instance of Paphnutius in the Councell of Nice , A fourth Reason ; Because we acknowledge Christ alone to be Lord of our Conscience , and no power of men on earth herein to be joyned with him . Harm. Confess . sect. 11. The Magistrate rules the body , not the minde . And therefore we dare not subjucate our conscience to humane lawes , customes , and manners , as to Gods Word , with which you doe so equally yoake them . So as wee answer you with the Apostles , when all the syn●dri●n of the Iewish State with one generall voyce interd●cted them from preaching in Christs Name : Whether it be equall in the sight of God , to o●ey you rather then God , judge ye . A ●●●●● Reason : Because the Holy Ghost by the Apostle expresly condemns all humane Ordinances in matters of faith and Religion , whereof Church-government is a branch . and a doct●inall part , so as mans law therein may not bind the conscience ; As Col. 2. from verse 8. to the end of the Chapter . A sixth Reason : Because it is Antichristian to deny Iesus to bee the Christ , that is , the onely King , Priest , and Prophet of his Church Hee is an Antichrist , that denieth any of these three Offices . But to deny Christ to be the onely King of his Church , is to deny him in one of his Incommunicable Offices . And they thus deny Iesus to bee the Christ , that place man with Christ in his throne , that set humane Lawes and Customes of all Nations cheek by jowle with the Word of God . Here Jesus is denied to be the Christ . I could here adde many more reasons to those : but these may suffise , that you may see there bee some Reasons which your Independents can produce , and those so solid , as the Gates of hell shall not prevaile against . But , say you , if we thus claime exemption from such binding Decrees of men in the matters of Christ , and that in point of conscience , then may also Papists , Anabaptists , and all other ●ects claim the like exemptiens , upon the like groun●s . Brother , for that , I hope you will put a difference between orthodox Churches , and he●erodox . But I say againe , for any mans conscience , bee it never so erroneous , as that of Papists , yet certainly the conscience of such simply considered in it selfe , nor you , nor any man in the world hath any thing to doe , further then to instruct and admonish and labour to enforme and iectifie : enforce it you may not . But shall we tolerate Popery , and so idolatry in our Land ▪ I answer ; ●t is one thing to tolerate Popery and Idolatry publickly in a land , and another to tolerate a man in his Conscience . Magistrates may not tolerate open Popery and Idolatry to be set up in the land : but the conscience o● a Papist , they are no masters , or judges of . If the Civill Magistrate see any of Gods Commandements actually violated , hee beareth not the sword for naught ; evill actions he must punish : but hee hath no power , over the conscience of any , to punish a man for that , so long as he makes no open breach of Gods Commandements , or the just lawes of the Land And so in the rest . And , brother , in your twelfth Question , you confesse so much reproving ( but how justly ) you Independents for censuring the very hearts and spirituall estates of others ; and alleadging that Scripture , that forbids men to judge , because God onely knows mens hearts . Now , brother , that which you deny to others , as to bee judges of mens hearts , and spirituall estates , why will you either assume it to your selfe , or attribute it to others , by placing them in Christ● throne , and thereby displacing Christ himselfe ? As the Apostle saith , Who art thou that judgest anothers servant ? To his Master he standeth , or falleth . Much more , who art thou , that judgest Gods servant ? And ver. 10. And why dost thou judge thy brother ? Or why dost thou set at ●aught thy brother ? We shall all stand at the Iudgement se●t of Christ . Christ therefore is the ●ole Iudge o● every mans conscience ; even hee alone , that is the Iudge of quicke and dead . And brother , let me put it to your Conscience , Doe you think it equall , that either your conscience should be a rule of mine , or mine of yours ? And if no one mans conscience may be the rule of anothers ; certa●nly neither may all the mens consciences in the world be the Iudge of any one mans . 2 How ever we finde neither rule , example , nor reason from Scripture , to force men to Religion originally ; ye the R●bins say , if man kept the seven precepts of Noah , hee might not bee forced further . The eleventh Question . Concerning this question , it containeth in it nothing but grievous invectives against the way you call Independent : You call it a Seminary of Schismes and dangerous divisions in Church , State : So did Tertullus the ●ews Advocate against Paul , charge him for a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition among al the Iews , throughout the world , Acts 24. 5. You pretend to ponder it in the ballance of Scripture , or right reason ; but you neither shew us Scripture not right reason , to ballance it in . You call it a Floodgate to let in an Inundation of herefies , errors , sects , libertinisme , and lawlesnesse , without means of suppressing them , when introduced . For this you bring Mr. Williams his bloody tenent . Now suppose him , or his booke , hereticall : will you make the way of Christ so too ? There was one Judas a traitor , shall therefore all the rest of the Apostles , or their Apostolicall calling , be so too ? You alleadge also Anabaptisticall , ●ntinomian , hereticall , Ath●ishicall opinions , as of the Soules mortality , Divorce at pleasure : will you therefore father all these upon Ch●ists Kingly government ? In Luthers time ●undry heresies sprung up ; was Luther therefore either the cause or occasion of them ? Doe we not know , that Mothes are bied in the parest cloth ? And the dunghills send forth strongest savours when the Sunne shines hottest . Is either the cloth the proper cause of the moth , or the Sunne of the stinking vapour ? Never greater errors have bin , then since the Gospell hath clearly shined forth . True it is indeed , that th●se divisions , and diversities of opinions , are with bleeding hearts to be bewailed : But shall the Gospell of the Kingdome beare the burthen of all ? This were , as with the Christians in Rome in Neroes time ; when any judgement of God fell upon the City , he would still im●●●e it to the Christians , and punish them for it . But we are taught better . When the good ▪ Husband-man sowed pure wheat in in his field , the enemy came and supersemina●ed tares ; shall wee therefore blame the wheat , because the t●res come up with them ? But that you impu●e to this way libertinisme and lawlesnesse : Good brother conside● , are we Libertines ? or are wee lawlesse ? Nay may wee not herein plead for our selves , that in all things we indeavou● to conforme ou● selves wholly to the law of Christ● and if many thing we off●nd ju●●ly any just law o●●h● l●n● , wee re●u●e not to suffer . Only , brother , le● not ●a● Impe●iall Edict be revived , that if any confessed themselves to be Christians they should be put to death ; so such as you call 〈…〉 , should for this very name suffer . As Tertullian said , Nomen pro●●●i●ine , when the very name of Christian was taken for a crime ▪ ●nd for meanes of suppressing errors , what meanes could suppresse those many errors that sprung up to the successive ages o● the Church ? Was not the word of God the onely meanes , and not humane power ? yea humane power is as well a meanes to maintain heresies , as to suppresse them . You know what Constantine and his sonne did to maintain the Arrian heresie . And orthodox Independent Churches are as good means as any other ; together with the care and countenance of the Magistrate , if it may be had , to defend them , and inable them to send forth labourers , without which the Presbytery will bee as barren , breast and womb , as any other . The twelfth Question . The sundry passages of this question , as I find them scattered along , I shall glean them , and so bundle them up for a conclusion at this time : For this question seems to be a Lerna of Queries . And first , you quarrell the Title of Independencie . Truly , brother , none of all those whom you thus intitle , doe at all glory in this name , so as to give you thanks for your so often stiling them thus in one poore sheet of paper , seeing th●y cannot imagine you doe it honoris gratia , while every where you set it as a brand . Notwithstanding we are not so ashamed of it , as utterly to disclaime it ; and that for two reasons . First , for distinction sake between us , and that which you call your Presbyteriall government . The second is , because this word Independent is to signifie , that we hold all particular Churches of Christ , to bee of equall authority , and none to have or exercise jurisdiction over another , but that each Church is under Christs government , as the sole Head , King ▪ Lord , Law give● thereof . But wee would not that you should give us this as a nick name , or a name of reproach , or badge of scorne : no● that you should call us so , as if we denied subjection to civill authority in matters of civill government nor yet that you should mean such an Independe●cie , as if we held not good correspondence with all sister-Churches , by way of conseciation , consultation , communion , communication , mutuall consolation , supportation and ( in a word ) in all things , duties , offices , as wherein Christs Kingdom is held up , the graces of the Churches exercised , & the liberties of each Church preserved intire , which is the glory of Christ , which we have touched before . And therefore , brother , you mightily mistake the matter , when you interpret Independency , as not needing both the Communion and assistance of other persons , Nations , Churches . Then secondly you question , Whether the Nationall Covenant dothin sundry respects strongly ingage the Nation against Independency ? Truly , brother , not at all , so long as all our Reformation is to be reduced to , and regulated by the word of God . And that is a sure foundation , whereon our Independencie dependeth . In which respect the Nation is by the Covenant ●●g●ged for Independencie . Thirdly , you queree , whether if Independencie ( rightly taken still as before ) if stript of all disg●ising pretences , be not Pharisaicall , vainglorious , selfe-conceitednesse , &c. Here , brother , you lash us with a whip of many cords , but that our armour is p●oo● . So you have done more then ten times , yea all along . And that all this should come from a friend , a brother , a suffe●er , from a companion , & counsellor , how hard is it to be born ? 〈…〉 you tell us of disguising pretences , if stript ; and for this , you have provided an unma●king for us . O brother , we have no such d●sguisings , as to feare your unmaskings . We may in this boldly answere with the Apostle , 1 I hess . 2. 3. 4. 5. And for Pharisaicall ▪ Spirituall pride , vain-glory , singularity , selfe-constitednesse of superlative holinesse , which as dirt you throw so liberally in our face ; To this brother , I will say no more but this : S● sat est accusasse ▪ quis innoeens erit ? It a bare and malicious accu●a●ion be e●ou●h to fasten a crime , who shall be innocent ? And did you ever enter into our hearts , to see what secret spirituall tumours , and apostumations be there ? and if not , how come you presently , in the very same sentence , and with the same breath to blow all this besmearing dust into your owne face ? For you charge us with passing uncharitable censures upon mens hearts , and spiritual ●states ; of which ( say you ) God never made us Iudges , and forbids us for to judg because he onely knowes mens hearts ( as was noted before . ) Now then , brother , why doe you thus judge the hearts and spirituall estates of your brethren ? Consider it well in cold blood . And , brother , what doe you see in the Independencie , that you should thus judg them ? The Tree is knowne by the Fruits . Are they ambitions of preferments , of glory of the world , of favour of great ones , of praise of men that doe voluntarily forsake all , and strip themselves of all to follow naked Christ ▪ Pharisees indeed loved the prayse of men more then the praise of God . That 's Pharisaicall , so in the rest . Therefore brother , tell not the world what malice may suggest unto you to think of us , but what you ●●e or observe in us . And yet , brother , the ●n●e of charity is , that you should first tell your brother privately o● his fault , before you blaze it to the world . But thus at least we come to know our ●a●●t . And what is it ? Wee doe , ( say you d●●m our selves too transcendently hol● s●●stified and religious a●ov●o he●s ; that we esteem them altogether unworthy of yea who●● exclude them from our Communion & ourch-society , as Publicans , heathens , or p●of●ne ●ersons ( though perhaps as good , or better then our selvs ) unlesse they will submit to their Church-covenants , & government , ref●sing ●l true brotherly familiarity ▪ society with them . So you . Now , brother Pryn , I confesse I am one of th●se , whom you call Independents ▪ and did you ever observe any such supercisious strang●nesse of ●●r●●age in me towards you , and other of your and my friend ▪ 〈…〉 e zealous against Independents , then your selfe , ●s youchange us withall ? Have there not been many interchangeable invitations between you and me , with loving acceptations , whereby we have enjoyed mutuall society , in all friendly and brotherly entertainment , saving ●●ill some quarrels about 〈…〉 way , but ever parting friends ? And more frequent it had been , had your occasions , and sometimes mine owne , permitted ▪ And neither at this day , since these you● invectives came forth , ( though they were no small griefe to me , and that even for your sak● ) am I become a greater stranger to you , either in face or affection , then I was be o●● For I am so perswaded of your good nature , thar did you truly epprehend , and dive into the mystery of Christs Kingly government in his Churches and Children , certainly you would never have thus sharpened and imbittered your style against your brethren ; the Lord open your eyes to see it . But however , brother , either be more moderate in censuring , or else censure not at al● , without ju●● cause . But we exclude ( say you ) as good or better then our selvs from communion and Church-society with us . Surely it may be so ; but , brother , we exclude them not ; but they exclude themselves . And you give the reason , because they wil not submit to the Churches government . But it doth not hence follow , that wee therefore deem either our selves so transcende●tly holy ( as you say ) or others altogether unworthy . But , brother , we esteem the government of Christs Church so holy ▪ as we cannot think them fit to be admitted ( be they never so good ) that think so slightly of the way , and of them that walk in it , that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of God . Would you admit of a member into your family who is disaffected with your courses , and orders of the family ? What cause then hath he to complain , if upon knowledge thereof you refuse to entertain him ? If therefore every family should be carefull to provide for its own peace , by having all in it of like affection and judgement , ( if possible ) why not Christs owne house and family ? And , brother , the truth is , ( for we love no disguising , as to need any unmasking ) wee love not in a time of reformation , after a generall tincture of superstition and will-worship , blindly to goe to work , to admit of all commers , and to cast Christs Pearles and holy things to such as we know not . Or if we b● perswaded they be truly godly , and yet they are not perswaded of the warrantablenesse of this way , how can they with a good conscience desire communion with us ? And if not , how can the Church receive them ? Nor indeed doe any such offer themselves ; nor doth the Church impose any such conditions , as a godly Christian hath cause not to accept . We desire to doe those things that please God , namely , such as he commends and commands . Rev. 2. 2. Christ commends the Angell of the Church of Ephesus , for not hearing with those that are wicked , and for trying those that sayd they were Apostles , and were not , but were found ly●rs . So some may come that professe themselves to be Christians , that is , to be godly , to be beleevers , but we dare not receive them without triall : if they refuse to be tried , we may the more suspect them . And what interest hath any to Church Communion , that is not a member , or to the seal , that is not in Covenant ? And we love not to do that , for which to repent afterwards . We desire all our members may be such as they may peaceably and sweetly continue with us . We are loath to have the world offended by the unworthy walking of any one member . And we desire by our best providence to prevent , that none once admitted , should ever be cast out again . And brother , all this we hold to be our duty , for the preferring of the honour of Christ , and of his Ordinances , and of his Churches in the beauties of holinesse . Others may take a broader way , if they please ; wee dare not . The Church and body of Christ is not of so slight account with us , as that we should carelesly and promiscuously admit of every one that offer themselves , without some triall of them , both for the Churches satisfaction , and for the account shee must make to Jesus Christ . How strict the Jews were , Airsworth in Gen. 12. v. 17. relates out of the R●●bines . And even Bellarmine himselfe had such a cleare apprehension of the generall nature of Christs Church , ( though himselfe did not experimentally and particularly know it ) that hee useth th●se words : Ecclesia precip●è , &c. The Church especially and intention●lly , gathereth onely beleevers , such as have true faith in their heart . And when any hypocrites are mingled among , such as truly beleeve not ▪ i● falleth out besides the intention of the Church . For if it could know them , it would never admit them ; or being casually admitted , it would so thwith exclude them . Thus Bell●rmi e ; which he sets down as a most true speculative Prinple ( though but ill applied , and worse practised by him and his , and such like , ) which yet all true Churches should be carefull to observe , and pot in practice . And truly , brother , we desire to do this , that , if it be possible , no misbeleever , no prophane liver , no hypocrite be admitted a member of Christs body ( though an hypocrite having his viz rd on , may sometimes * creep in unawares into the Church ) And therefore diligent circumspection is used for prevention . And ●urpius ejicitur , quam non admittitur h●s●es : A guest is in refairly kept out , then cast out . This , brother , is our course , that we hold in admitting of members ; we think we cannot be too wary , though too strict we are not . We suspect the gold that will not abide the touch . A Christian name may silver over the copper , such as the Scripture calls reprobate silver , Ierem. 6. 30 ▪ Though we know each currant coin hath its allowance of allay ; and each beleeving Saint so many grains allowance ; but all sincere , no thing counterfeit . And as for Church covenant , we have sufficiently spoken before . The last charge you lay upon Independencie , is , uncharitablenesse , carelesnesse , and neglect of one another welfare , and the like . Brother , for uncharitablenesse , let our practises , the best proofes of true charity ▪ plead for us . We ●●ve manifested our love and loyalty to the State , whereof we are natural and politicall members . For the safety thereof we have powred out our estates to the very bottome . We dare herein compare with all others of our rank and meanes . My selfe a poore man , am out for the State ▪ between foure and five hundred pounds ; and , I blesse God , I have done it with a cheerfull heart , nor for squint respects to lay out so much at once , to receive of the State so much annuity . Yet I speak it not to glory , but you have compelled me . And besides their means , none have more prodigally adventured and spent their lives for the State , then your Independents have ; and for none hath the God of Battels appeared more . And but for stirring up envie ( which needs not ) I should put you in mind of Marston-moore . In a word , brother , we dare challenge all the world in point of fidelity to the State , and our native countrey . Where be they that more love , honour our Senat , Synod , Syn●drion ? Who pray more frequently , more fervently for them ? So that herein you cannot say we are Independents , as for want of true love , and that of the best kind , to the publick Cause and State , from which our Independencie is so farre from separating our hearts and affections , with all our abilities to serve it , as that it hath cleared it self to be as fast & firmly united unto it , as any other whatsoever . And for true charitablenes ▪ brother , where is it to be found , if not in those Churches you call Independent ? But you will say , this love is among our selves . And God grant it may ever be so : Yet it ends not here , but extends to all ▪ And , brother , for a close , I challange you to shew me any one parochiall Congregation in England , where in there is , or can be the like love one to another , the like care one for another , the like spirituall watchfulnesse one over another , the like union and communion of members in one mysticall body , in a sympathy of affections , in such a fraternitie as is described , Psal. 133. a lively type of a true Church of Christ . Till you shew us the like in any of your Parochiall Assemblies , consisting of your mixed multitude , good brother , restrain your spirit so mightily imbittered against us , lest in charging us with uncharitablenesse , your self alone be found to be uncharitable . And so I have done with your first twelve Questions . A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES , COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT . OR AN ANSVVER To Mr. PRYNNES second Book . MY deare Brother , to your twelve new Interrogatories I present you with a new Answer . I call it new , because I shall cull out such passages , as I find new , or not so much insisted on in your former twelve . Which as they are fewer , so I shall be the shorter , for as much as in the former , I have been the larger . But brother , I find not that in your Book , which you pretend in your Title , to wit , the Unmasking of Independency . Nor can we expect it of you : for in your Proeme you say , that the Independents have not dogmatically , and in direct termes , discovered the full truth of what they assert . If not , what kind of visage will you discover , when you have taken off the mask ? Surely , by your handling of the matter , you mean to unmask some hags face , such as pleased the Painter . Which when you have done , it will appeare to all the wise-hearted , that it is not the face of Independency , as wherein there shines forth such a beauty , as it seemeth you yet never saw . In your Preface to the Courteous R●●der , you say , We politickly conceale the principall grounds , and more deformed parts of our Church-Platforme , for feare of miscarrying . Good brother , who told you so● Remember your own lesson before , Judge not . But indeed , had you reproved us ( yet in love and meeknesse ) for not setting forth more fully a compleat Modell of this fabrick , or spirituall house , it had been something . Which yet if it were done , you would not impute it to policy , that it was not sooner done . But when it is exactly done , you will find no deformed parts at all in it : but contrariwise a greater beauty then in that famous Temple that Solomon built , as being the spirituall Temple of Jesus Christ ; so as I am sorry you are put to the paines of pumping out our determinations ( as you say ) by your Questions : When as you should rather find it as a fountaine flowing forth in the streets . But brother , how doe you write by Question , not decision ( as you say ) when your Questions prove to be decisions , as your former twelve are ? And what doe you els , but refute upon bare conjectures , Andabatarum more pugnando , as those at blind-man-buff . For your Charges upon us are very sore , and ( as many doe say ) bitter , so farre beyond reason , as you are not able truly to say , Wherefore . For your first Question , Whether the Independent forme of Church-government be anywhere to be found in the Old or New Testament : this we have resolved in your former Twelve Questions : so as this is no new Interrogatory , unlesse you put the greater difference between Questions , and Interrogatories . And though it were in no antiquitie ( which yet we have shewen before ) neverthelesse , if it be found in the Scripture ( as there it is ) whatsoever clouds of the mastery of iniquitie have darkened the lustre of it for so many hundred yeares : yet this cannot plead prescription against it . For if Nullum tempus occurrit Regi : then surely no tract of time can prescribe against the law of Christs kingdome , which we finde upon sacred record . But where , say you ? Why , brother , this House of God wherein Christ rules as King , stands upon so many Principles , as so many maine pillars , not to be shaken . As 1. It is a spirituall house , whose onely builder and governour is Christ , and not man . 2. It is a spirituall kingdome , whose onely King is Christ , and not man . 3. It is a spirituall Republick , whose onely Law-giver is Christ , and not man . 4. It is a spiritual Corporation , or body , whose onely head is Christ , and not man . 5. It is a Communion of Saints , governed by Christs Spirit , not man's . 6. Christs Church is a Congregation called and gathered out of the world by Christs Spirit and Word , and not by man . These Principles are such , as the Adversaries themselves of this kingdome of Christ , cannot , dare not deny . And out of these Principles doe issue these Conclusions . 1. That no man is the builder of this spirituall house . 2. That no man , nor power on earth hath a kingly power over this kingdome . 3. That no earthly Law-givers may give Lawes for the government of this Republick . 4. That no man may claime or exercise a headship over this Body . 5. That no man can , or ought to undertake the Government of this Communion of Saints . Item , That none are of this Communion , but visible Saints . Ergo , a true visible Church of Christ cannot be defined , or confined to a parochiall multitude . Item , ●hat , that Government of this Communion , is not extrinsecall , but intrinsecall , by the Spirit of the Word , and by the Word of the Spirit . 6. That men may not appoint , limit , constitute what Congregations of all sorts they please , to be Churches of Christ , as Nations and Parishes . But you confesse in generall , Christ to be the Builder , the King , the Law-giver , the Head , the Governour , the Caller , the Gatherer of his Churches . If you doe , you must approve of those Churches you call Independent , as whereof Christ is the onely Builder , King , Law-giver , Head , Governour , Caller , and Gatherer . If you doe not , in denying Christ in these relations , you deny Christ in his absolute Regalitie . But in your Answer to your Antiquerist , pag. 6. you doe in part grant Christ to be King internally in the soule , which , you say , may passe for tolerable . O brother ! No more but may passe for toleráble ? You that are so l●rge-●earred to your friends , are you so strait-laced to Christ ? Surely , Brother , Christ is the full and sole King , raigning in the heart and conscience of every true beleever . It were intolerable , not to grant this in its full latitude . But you absolutely deny Christs sole kingly Government , externall over his Churches . Brother , this is no lesse Christs kingly Prerogative , then the former . Hee that is King over every part of the body , must needs be King over the whole body . It therefore Christ be the only King over every mans conscience , so as no man , nor power on earth , may sit with him in this his Throne : then consequently by the se●f-same reason , must he by the Word of the kingdome , as the only Law thereof , exercise his kingly office over his Churches ; so as no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government , or forms of this spirituall House , and Kingdome . For otherwise , if man should set up a form of Government over the Church of Christ , to which all must conforme ; then of necessitie should man b● Lord over the couscience , which is the highest presumption against the most High . And then what mischiefs would follow● What intolerable tyrannie over the conscience ? Then must your words ( ibid. ) come to passe : If a moderated or regulated Ep●scopacie the same with Presbyterio , should by the Synods advice , be unanim●usly established in Parliament , as most consonant to the Scriptures , and most agrerable to the Civill Government , I shall readily submit unto it without opposition , and why not you , and al● others ? So you . O Brother , I stand amazed ! But I go on . Then againe , the Scripture , as it sets downe the qualifications of the members of this body , so the forming of them in the body in the parts thereof , more principall , and lesse , superiour and inferiour , for order and well-being : As Pastors and Teachers , Teaching and Ruling Elders , Helpes , Governments , Bishops , and Deacons , or by what other means soever they are diversified in Scripture . And this is one uniforme forme of Government , which Christ hath fixed in his Churches , without any difference at all , but secundum●magis & minus ( as before ) as lesser Churches have fewer Officers , greater moe . So as , brother , if the old Wine be better , old Presby●erie , old unlordly Episc●p●cy , surel ▪ the Independents do justly challenge it : Which had you once truly tasted of , you would never have desired to drink other . The Lord remove that aguish humor * Vexatus f●bre recus●t ●ptima . Your second Interrogatory is , about the lawfull powe● of Civill Magistrates in all matters of Church-government , wherein you tax some Independents for extraordinary eclipsing the same . Some : what some may say , is one thing , must therfore the Independent Church-government say it too ? You alledge for this a passage in the Answer of two of the brethren to A. S. for wch one of them is lately questioned : but , I hope , he wil clear himself . But the weight of this whole Interrogatory lies in your Marginall note : where you peremptorily conclude ; That the chief Government and ordering of the Church , and power of making Ecclesiasticall Lawes , or Canons to bind it , before the Law belonged to the Patriarks and others , was not as they were Priests , but Rulers , and Fathers of their Families : under the Law ( say you ) it belonged to Moses , to the Kings of Iudah , Israel , and the morall Assemblies or Congregations of the Princes , Nobles , chiefe Captains , Heads , and Elders of the people : Therefore under the Gospel , by like reason and equity , and because it is a part of Christs kingly , not Priestly , or Propheticall Office ▪ it must needs belong to Christian Princes , Magistrates , Parliaments , to whom Christ hath delegated his kingly Office ; not to Ministers , to whom he hath given onely his Propheticall or Priestly Authoritie , not the Royall , as the Scriptures at large relate : nor yet to particular Congregations , who are not Magistrates , nor higher Powers , invested with Christs royall Authoritie . So you , where you tell us many strange things , but prove nothing . But , brother , in such a weighty Argument as this , your {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , will not serve the turne : yea , you here overthrow those Principles forementioned , That Christ is the onely King , so the onely Priest , the onely Prophet of his Church ; which his three offices are incommunicable to any creature , as they are proper and peculiar onely to him ; He is the onely King , &c. Now to be solus , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , The onely Potentate , the King of Kings , and Lord of Lords ; this is Christs Regall prerogative , which is in communicable to any , or to all the powers on earth . It is no lesse incommunicable , then his omnipotencie , his omniscience his omnipresence , and the rest of his incommunicable Attributes ; no lesse then his Mediatorship . Those Patriarchs and Princes of Israel before the Law , and under the Law , from Adam to Christ , never had this power or prerogative , to make Ecclesiasticall Lawes , or binding Canons ; no nor yet Moses , no● Kings of Iudah , Israel , and Generall Assemblies , Princes , Nobles , chiefe Captaines , and Elders of the people , as you muster them up together in your marginall note . A seeming goodly Army indeed ; but so many shadowes of men , for any such power they had , as you would with your penfull of ink paint cut unto us . And first for those before the Law was given in Sinai : had they this power you speak of ? Cain and Abel brought their Sacrifices . What ? Was it a * will-worship of their own election ? If so , God had regarded Abels sacrifice no more then Cains . How then ? Their Sacrifice was of Gods own appointment : Adam had it from God , and his children from him . For as God revealed to Adam , Christ , so those Sacrifices , types of Christ . Whence the learned Interpreter Calvin saith , Tenendum est , &c. We are to hold , that the manner of sacrificing was not unadvisedly devised by them , but delivered to them from God ▪ For seeing the Apostle res●●res the dignity of Abels sacrifice , as attributed to faith , it followes , he offered it not without Gods commandement . So as it could not have pleased God , had it not been according to his commandement . So Calvin . Nor is all here expressed : no doubt they had an Altar also , whereon to offer for the sanctifying and accepting the offering ; which Altar was a type of Christ the true * Altar , to whom Abels faith had respect . Though we read not of Altar before Gen. 8. 28. We read also of difference of beasts clean , & unclean , Gen. 7. By all which it is evident , that God gave a law to Adam and his off-spring , sutable to that in Mount Sinai , for a rule of divine worship ; so also for Church-government . And this further appeareth by the Law in Sinai afterwards , where Moses is expresly charged to do all things ( both for worship and Church-government ) according to the patern shewed him in the Mount ; as before we noted . And when the Temple was to be built , God gave to David an exact patern of all things , yea , of every particular , both in writing and by his Spirit , not onely for worship , but for the whole ministration about the Temple , a type of Christs Church under the Gospell , so as neither Moses nor Kings of Iudah , had the least power to devise any other forme , then that prescribed of God . The keeping of the Passover once in the second month by Ezechiah , was extraordinary , upon a case of necessity . And for the Kings of Israel , will you equall them with the Kings of Judah ? Had they lawfull power , as Jerobam , to set up his two golden ●●lvs , and so to change the form of worship & Church-government ? When that King A●as set up his Damascen Altar , was it by a Regall power invested in him from God ? So of other Kings of Juda , good or bad , they had no lawfull power at all to alter the form prescribed of God , one jor . And therefore , brother , you are wondred at , that being a man of much reading , and mightie parts , you should utter such strange things ( ne quid dicam durius ) as these are , and that so confidently , when you neither doe , nor ever can bring the least proofe , yea or colour of what you affirm . And therefore your inference upon such empty premises , that therefore under the Gospel , by like reason and equity , it must needs belong to Christian Princes , Magistrates , Parliaments , to whom Christ hath delegated his Kingly office , &c. is no consequence . Whence I note two things : 1. Like reason and equity . Now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity , because no truth in them . 2. Christ hath not delegated his Kingly office to any Princes , Magistrates , Parliaments , to set up any form of worship or Church-government of their devising , or conceiving , no more then hee did to all , or any of those you reckon up in the Old Testament . I pray God give you a better understanding in this mystery of Christ , and godly sorrow for these things . Take then the counsell of this great King : Bee wise therefore , and understand ; and kisse this King , this Sonne of God , by obeying him in all that he saith , as being not onely the onely King , but the onely Prophet of his Church ( as before ) whom whoso heareth not IN ALL THINGS , shall even be cut off from his people . But how then doe you say , This is a part of Christs Kingly office , not Priestly , or Propheticall , to set up a government ; and , hee hath not communicated those other offices to Princes and Parliaments : Whereas Christ doth in all things regulate his Kingly office by his Prophetical office ? And again , how say you , Christ hath not given his Kingly office to Ministers , but onely his Priestly and Propheticall ; and yet you make an Assembly of Ministers as Rector Chori to be the leaders and guides to a Form of Reformation , and that necessarily ? And denying such to bee Kings , or to have a Kingly office , you exclude them out of the Albe of those faithfull ones , whom Christ hath made ▪ a * Royall Priesthood ; even * Kings and Priests to God his Father . But so much of this second Interrogatory . The third Interrogatory . Touching this : 1. Wee assume not the power to gather Churches , but being sent or called to preach the Word of the Kingdome , thereby people thus called of God , come to be gathered into Church-fellowship , and so by consent doe chuse their Officers . 2. Such as are thus called , to acknowledge Christ their onely King , were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such Ministers as you speak of , who deny , disclaime , and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches . So as such a conversion as you speak of , comes not home to whole Christ : and such , with their converters , doe deny Christs Kingly government ; what kind of converts call you these ? Or at least and best they are converted but in part ; and that main thing wanting , to wit , Christs Kingly office , they come up to by the preaching thereof . 3. Such Ministers , when they set up Christs government , may ( being agreed upon by all sides ) have those Parishioners again , that for want of it at the first went from them . 4. Our solemne Vow and Covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of Gods word , and the libertie of a good conscience , considering how Churches are gathered out of all the world , not this place , nor that , not this house nor that , but out of * every nation , such as fear God , and * out of every house the sons of peace , & out of * every Citie or Town , all that receive the Gospel , are called and gathered to Christ . 5. Concerning Christian liberty in joyning to severall Churches , as in the same house some to affect one , some another : you know what Christ saith , Luke 12. 51 , 52 , 53. And it is God that perswadeth I●ph●t to dwell in the Tents of Shem. And , brother , all that noyse you make all along , with extreame aggravations , as Confusion , Distraction , implacable Contestations , Schismes , Tum●lts , &c. What are they but the very out-cries which the Prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their Hierarchy , built upon the same sandy foundation . This is well noted in the Harmony of Confessions , Sect. 11. Confession of Ausburg . These Senater-like Declamations though they be very plausible , and incense the mindes of many against us , yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments . As , All the Prophets and Apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of Nations and people : yet were they constrained by the commandement of God , to warre against the Devils kingdome , to preach heavenly doctrine , to collect a Church unto God , and the like . And , The true doctrine of God , and his true worship , must needs be embraced and received ; and all errors , that tend to the dishonor of God , must be abhorred and forsaken , though all the world should break and fall down . And much more there . 6. Though we are fully perswaded by Gods Word and Spirit ▪ that this our way is Christs way ; yet wee neither doe , nor dare judge others to be reprobates , that walk not with us in it , but we leave all judgement to God , and heartily pray for them : we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it , therefore wee pitie others . 7. Where you object , that under pretence of Christian liberty , whole Houses , Parishes , Counties , may thus come to be divided into severall formes of Churches , as some for the Presbyteriall , some for the Hierarchicall , and so cause Schismes and ruines ; or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of Parishes , all setled maintenance for the Ministery by tythes , &c. Brother , for Christian libertie , who shall perswade the conscience , or who hath power over it , but he that made it , even God , the onely Judge thereof ? And for difference of mens judgements in points of Religion , how can it be avoided ? And yet it followes not , that upon such differences should come ruine to a State . What serveth the Magistrate , and the lawes of a civill State for , but to keep the peace ? And as for Parishes , will you allow no Churches but Parishes ? Or are Parishes originally any other but of humane , politicke , and civill constitution , and for civill ends ? Or can you say , that so many as inhabit in every Parish respectively , shall bee a Church ? Should such Churches and Parishes then necessarily be Churches of Gods calling and gathering ? Are they not congregations of mans collection , constitution and coaction meerly ? What Churches then ? And as for Tithes : what Tithes , I pray you , had the Apostles ? Such as be faithfull and painfull Ministers of Christ , he will certainly provide for them : as when hee sent forth his Disciples without any purse , or provision , he asked them , Lacked you any thing ? They said , Nothing . Surely , the labourer is worthy of his hire . And as for Ministers maintenance by Tithes , I referre you to the judgment of your learned brother Mr. Selden . And as for your Independent Ministers , they plead no other maintenance then the New Testament holds forth , yet not denying the Magistrate and State a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word , as is done in New England , to those that are not members of Churches . And where you charge them , for having the faith of Christ in respect of persons , as if they admitted the rich , rather then the poore : Brother , I hope it is not so with others ; I am sure , not so with me . And lastly , for your marginall young Interrogatories : As , 1. Of how many members each Congregation ? I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution , but according to the capacitie of every Parish . 2. Within what precincts ? Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number . 3. What set Stipends allowed ? Sufficient more or lesse . 4. When and where Churches should assemble ? For when ? at times convenient . For where ? Not necessarily in this or that place . 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting , or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions ? If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest , the Church agrees upon the time . But if it be publick , concerning the Politick body of the State , whereof we are native members , in whose weale or woe we sympathize , either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary , or if the Civill State command and appoint a day , we refuse not to observe it . 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants , Discipline , Censures , Government , if erroneous , or unjust ? First , Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ , within her selfe . Secondly , If need require , she useth the help of Sister-Churches . Thirdly , If any other , as the Civill State , be not satisfied , shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions , being required . 7. Shew us ( say you ) a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe , or desire , before they gather any Churches . Brother Prynne , you say you will pump out our thoughts ▪ yea , it seemes , you will exanclate , pumpe out every drop that is in us . But stay , brother , you are not yet a Magistrate . And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets . And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you , as my brother , all along : yet give me leave to keep a Reserve , Done● ad Triarios redieritres , untill it come to a dead lift , in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers , to give an account of what we doe , or desire . And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske , to satisfie you in all that we DOE , or DESIRE . First make your particular exceptions , and demands for this , or that ▪ and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer , as you see we have here done . What are all your books of Law ▪ cases , all the Volumes of the Casuists , to the resolution upon general grounds , of incident matters , which could not be ruled till they happened ? and yet the Government of States is one , and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare . And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us , when you see we are so coming , and free . The fourth Interrogatory . This is much like the next before . For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches : this , concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church , choosing their Minister , erecting such a Government , as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture . And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches , and all manner of heresies , sects , be brought in . I answer , as before . A Church is a Citie of God , which by her Charter becomes a Citie , being called of God , and by the same Charter ( the Scripture ) chuseth her own Officers : and sets up no other government , but what her Charter prescribes . If any other doe otherwise , and doe pervert the Scripture , it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ . Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse . It was so in the Apostles times , and the next ages after . The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies ; no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome , because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them , and as injuriously dealt with them . Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians , because others abuse them . Yea , whether we use our priviledges , or no , errours and heresies will be . The Apostles , and Apostolick Churches , could neither keep , nor cast them out ; as is shewed before . But brother , where you say , that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted : then by the selfe-same reason , they must have a like libertie to elect , erect what Civil forme of government they please : to set up a new Independent Republick ▪ Kingdome , &c. By the selfe-same reason ? Surely by no reason at all . Shew us a reason hereof , and take all . And you know , that Republicks , Kingdomes are Independent , though not of Churches electing , erecting . It is unsatisfiable injury , and extreame irrationality thus to argue ; for hath Christ given the same command to his people , as such who are not of this world , nor their Kingdome , as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids ? 2. They set up no forme , but take that which is prescribed , which God hath not done in civill government , but left it free , 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory . Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches ; Why not that , as well as this ? And if this , why doe we not shew solid proofe of it ? I answer : We desire to enjoy ours , without making comparison with yours ▪ For proofe we have shewed sufficient . Then to a second Quere ; the answer is , not the Minister alone , nor the Congregation alone , but both together admit members , and set up Christs Government , not their own . And how ever you make us a Conventicle , consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members : I beleeve , brother Prynne , when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles , as you esteeme us , you will not altogether find us such , as you are pleased to terme us . And for Nationall Parliaments , States , wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them , as Gods * Word commandeth us . And for a Nationall Councell , as this is , called to advise , not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences , wee detract not their due honour too , as they are pious , and learned men . 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod , that they have in a Church , if they be members , it is answered , that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place , so that we may have a greater power in another kind , and yet not that ; as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament , though he have a greater . The sixth Interrogatory . This Interrogatory hath sundry branches : the answer whereunto respectively , will intimate what they be . 1. Wee say , as before , None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches . 2. We cannot conceive , that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people ; and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word . Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this , then it did by John Baptist , Christ himselfe , and his Apostles , when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church . Even the Imperiall heathen Roman Lawes gave way to the preaching of Christs kingdome , and gathering of Churches within their Territories , Provinces , Cities . 3. For Church-government , Covenant , wee have said enough before . 4. Concerning a Nationall Church also , we have spoke already in the former Answer . And I desire brevitie , and not to answer all your repetitions and aggravations , lest I may nauseam movere . 5. It is one thing for a State to set up a new forme of Ecclesiasticall Government , and another to pull downe the old . This they were bound unto by the Word of God : but not so that , unlesse it be the same Church-government which Christ sets downe in his Word ; besides which none other ought to be set up , though never so much pretended , and by men conceived to be according to Gods Word , when made sutable to the Lawes , Customes of every Nation , and manners of the people , as you affirme ; of which before . Lastly , This Church-government , which we professe , you shall never be able to prove ridiculous and absurd , as you conclude your Interrogatory . The seventh Interrogatory . This Interrogatory is about the dismissing of members : 1. to become members of Presbyteriall Churches : 2. Or of other Independent Churches . I answer , If any will desert their Congregation , who can let them ? Yet it is the Churches care and duty to preserve it selfe , and all the members in unity of the body ; and also from whatsoever may be sinfull . If any shall repent , and fall back , Churches are not more free , then * Christ himselfe was . If any for conveniency sake , or necessary occasion , desire to joyne with some other Church , doe you think it unreasonable , first to acquaint the Church with their desire ? And doe you not allow of Letters of recommendation , when any is to passe to other Churches ? May not els jealousies and suspicions arise , and heart-burnings between Churches ? Do you not remember , what divisions and emulations the want hereof did cause among the Churches of old ? And , brother , we desire to doe all things in love . And we desire that others should doe no otherwise unto us , then we doe unto them : as you object . You twit us againe , for respecting the rich , more then the poore . If it be true , it is * our fault , and ought not so to be : if not true , it is yours , and that so often as ( as you doe ) you cast it in our dish . The eight Interrogatory . This Interrogatory is to charge us , for not admitting to Baptisme any Infants of such Parents , who are not members of our Churches . And , brother , you make this a most hainous and intolerable thing . Why , you know , if we would admit of all , it would be no small benefit and advantage to us , especially when we are to deale with rich mens children , such as you say we have in such high estimation . Therefore that we doe it not for rich men , you may thinke there is something in it , that covetousnesse is not ▪ so predominant in us ▪ as to corrupt our Conscience . And therefore brother , let some charitable thought take place in you , that we doe it rather of Conscience , then of Covetousnesse . And what say you to this , brother ? We preach Christ to the Parents . We preach him no lesse a King , then a Priest and Prophet . We preach him the onely King of our Conscience , and the onely Law-giver and Governour of his Churches . We exhort them to set up this King in their hearts . Wee exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints , of whom he is King . For he is * King of Saints . But , brother , they will not beleeve us ; they will not depend upon Christ , as the onely Lawgiver , and King over their consciences . Now , what would you have us to doe in this case ? Baptize the Infants of such Parents , as will not , in this respect , professe , nor confesse Christ to be their King ? Why , doe you not know , that no Infants have any title to Baptisme , that are not within the Covenant visibly ? And how are they within the Covenant visibly , but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed ? And what outward profession of faith in the Parents , that refuse Christ for their onely King ? that are ashamed , or afraid , to professe to be in covenant with Christ , as their King ? If therefore the Parents professe not ▪ yea refuse thus to be in visible , Covenant , can the children be said to be in visible Covenant , and so to have a right to Baptisme , the externall seale of the Covenant ? Brother , here is obex , a barre put . If you say , The child shall not beare the iniquitie of the father . True ; but the Parents keep themselves off from the covenant by refusing Christ , in whom alone the beleever hath right to the Covenant ; and so the child is withall kept off . For it is not now under the Gospel , as it was from Abraham to Christ , The covenant was made with Abraham and his seed , so as by vertue hereof all the male Infants of beleeving Abraham were and ought to be circumcised . But now under the Gospel , those onely are accounted Abrahams seed , who professe the faith of Abraham , which faith looked upon Christ , and embraceth whole Christ in all his offices , and professe the same outwardly , Rom. 10. 9 , 10. So as the Covenant is entayled onely to beleevers now , and so to their children ( as Act. 2. 39. ) If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King , as the Jewes did ( Luk 19. 14. ) doe hereby out themselves off from the Covenant , they do therewith cut off their children too : and this not to be recovered in the child , untill either the Parent be restored , or the child coming in time to beleeve , and to professe the faith of Christ , doe hereby claime his right to the Covenant , and so to Baptisme , as being a * childe of Abraham . Let this suffice for the present , why we dare not baptize the children of those Parents , that refuse to professe the faith of Christ , as their onely King , as well as their onely Priest and Prophet . For Christ divided , becomes no Christ to the divider . This is , according to the vulgar Latin translation , ( 1 Joh. 4. 3. ) solvere Iesum , to dissolve Jesus , that is , to receive him only in part , and not in whole . Which is the spirit of Antichrist . Besides , willing disobedience to any good order in a Church , deprives a man of the liberties of the Church : ( for so he may not eat of the provender , that will not undergoe the yoake ) Now this of a voluntary profession to walk with the Saints of such a place , according to Christ , is a thing so just , as following the example of the old Church , who were in particular Covenant with God . 2. In the New , they professed their giving themselves to God , 2 Cor. 8. 5. 3. All societies require some promise of their members . If it be said , we are members of the universall Church by faith and repentance : we reply , 1. this faith must be shewen by a voluntary giving our selves to Christ visibly , and then to some Church of his , if opportunitie serve ; for Christ will not have his people to be wandring sheep , when they may have a fold ; nor to be individua vaga , when they may be reduced to order . The ninth Interrogatory . This Interrogatory lays a charge upon Independents , for refusing to admit to the Lords Supper such as are not notoriously scandalous , nor grossely ignorant , but professe repentance , &c. which you say , is a very uncharitable , arrogant , yea unchristian practise , contrary to Christs own example in admitting Iudas to the Lords Supper ; Also to that of Paul , 1 Cor. 11. you calling it also a transcendent straine of tyrannicall usurpation over soules and consciences , and Gods Ordinances , worse then our most domineering Lordly Prelates , &c. yea Lording over Christ himselfe , and more then ever the Apostles did , but onely by their extraordinary calling , &c. I answer in one word ( omitting your copious aggravations , and sharp censures ) that we look further , then to a generall profession and conversation , namely , to their faith in Christ , that it be sound intire , and whole , and namely , whether they hold him to be as the onely Prophet and High Priest , so the onely Prince of his People , the onely Lord , and Lawgiver to every mans conscience , and over every Congregation or Church of his Saints . If they thus acknowledge not Christs kingly office , as well as his other offices , we doe not , we dare not receive them . And what have they to do with the seales , that refuse by covenant to own Christ for their King ? As for Judas , he received the sop , not the supper ; for , after the sop , he went out * immediately , saith John . So as it appeares , the other Evangelists relate some other passages by a hysteron proteron , as is not unusuall in Scripture story . And none of them saith , that he received the Supper . And suppose ●e did : the Churches Censure had not yet past upon him : onely John by a secret signe knew he was to be the traytor . For that of the Apostle , 1 Cor. 11. 28. that was a true Church , though now disordered ; and the Apostle refers the redressing of their abuses to themselves . The case is otherwise here , so as all your accumulated calumniations fall to ground . And concerning the Apostles extraordinary calling , if we must expect the like calling , we must not in the meane time admit of any , either to Baptisme , or to the Lords Supper ; neither should there be any gathering of Churches at all ; as some from hence doe gather . Besides , what shall the authority be , that Luther gathered the Churches by , and those that followed him ? and what lawfull gathering then have the Reformed Churches ? For your marginall note of Moses , David , Solomon , about setling Religion by Gods own direction : herein you come home to that I said before , alledged against your unlimited law . But in that you now restraine by their example , all Church-government to the Civil Magistrates ; you must make it out by holding close to the rule , that is , To settle Religion by Gods own direction , as you here confesse , and not to elect , erect a forme of Religion , and Church-government , such as they shall conceive sutable , &c. as before you told us . And Moses , David , Solomon , were all types of Christ , who put an end to all such . And while you there exclude the Priests from having any thing to doe in Reforming , or advising : What will the Assembly say to you ? But they may advise , you will say . But the Priests might do nothing , but according to Gods prescript law ; no more then Moses , David , Solomon . And if the Priests ( as you say ) had no ruling votes : then by this reckoning , what votes do you allow the Assembly-men , in their mixt Committees with the members of Parliament , or in the Assembly it selfe ? Reconcile these I pray you . The tenth Interrogatory . This Interrogatory questions , or rather ( as all the rest ) concludes , that that Text ( Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. ) is not meant of any Ecclesiasticall censure , as of Excommunication , but onely of the civill Court of Justice . Brother , if you did speake hereas a Divine , and not meerly as a lawyer , you would not have , against the judgment of most learned Divines , ancient and modern , and not Papists , &c. so interpreted this place . And what speak I of Divines ? The Text it selfe is its own clearest Interpreter . For it is immediatly added ( v. 18. ) Verily I say unto you , whatsoever you shall bind on earth , shall be bound in heaven ; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth , shall bee loosed in heaven . Which is without controversie spoken of Church-censure , or of the power of the Keyes in exercising Church-discipline ; as that ( Matth. 16. 19 ) is spoken of doctrine , as the learned Calvin well observeth . So as this very context cleareth the former to bee meant of Church-censure , as it was among the Jewes . You alledge on the contrary , that learned Lawyer whom wee all honour for his learning . Good brother , I could wish that all this zeale of yours against Independents , might not arise from any jealousie , as if Church-censures should prejudicate or trench upon your pleadings at the Barre of civill justice . Farre be it , that we should have our motion beyond our own Spheare . Content your self with your own Orb , and we shall confine our selves to ours , I dare warrant you . Again , to what purpose do you urge this interpretation of this Text against us ? Do not all the Presbyterians expound it so ? And if this Text , which is made the great pillar of Presbyterian excommunication , be taken off , you leave no more to a Classis then we , scil. to consult and advise . And with this foot you have dashed all the milk you gave them . The eleventh Interrogatory . This Interrogatory is to perswadeus , that in that Assembly , or Evangelicall Synod ( as you call it ) Acts 15. the Apostles voted not as they were Apostles infallibly guided by the holy Ghost , but rather as they were in their ordinary capacitie , as Elders and chiefe members of it . Whereupon ( producing your six reasons for it ) you peremptorily conclude , that this is an undeniable Scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse , use of Parliaments , Councels , Synods , under the Gospel , upon all like necessary occasions ; and for their power to determine controversies of Religion , to make Canons in things necessary for the Churches peace and concernment , maugre all evasions , exceptions ( of Independents ) to elude it . But let us examine your six reasons , why the Apostles sate not as Apostles , but as ordinary Elders , &c. Where first , we lay this ground for the contrary , scil. that they sate as Apostles , because not ordinary Elders , as Elders , can say , It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us . But the Apostles , as Apostles , might say so , because in any doctrinall point they had the promise of the Spirit , to bee led into all truth , as upon whom the Church was to bee built , Eph. 2. 20. Secondly , if they sate as ordinary Elders , then their decrees did no further bind , then as they might appeare to agree with Scripture ; otherwise Elders , as Elders , may bind the conscience , let the decree bee never so wicked . But to your reasons : First , For else ( say you ) Paul and Barnabas being Apostles themselves , might have decided that controversie at Antioch , without sending to Ierusalem . Answ. 1. By your favour , brother , Barnabas was not ( to speak properly ) an Apostle , though an Apostolicall man . 2. They argued with those Legalists at Antioch , sufficiently to convince them ; but they comming from Judea , and pretending the use of circumcision , and Moses Law , to be still in force in the Church at Jerusalem , and the controversie being between two great parties , the Christian Jews , and Christian Gentiles ; hereupon the Church at Antioch thought it requisite , for the fuller satisfaction to all parties , to send Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem . And 3. because Paul and Barnabas are thus sent , doth it follow , that they were not sufficient ( yea Paul alone , as an Apostle infallibly guided by the holy Ghost ) to have decided the question at Antioch ? As no doubt sufficiently they did , though not so satisfactorily to all . And 4. that they are thus by the Church at Antioch sent to the Apostles and Church at Jerusalem : here is a good example for the use of communion of Churches , as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another . 2. Else ( say you ) the Church at Antioch would have sent to none , to resolve their doubts , but to the Apostles onely , and not to the Elders . I answer : In that they sent to the Elders also , it shewes the respect that one Church should have to another . 2. Those Elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy Ghost . 3. Though they had not infallibility , as the Apostles had , yet their assent to the determination , was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof . 3. Else ( say you ) Paul and Barnabas would have put the question to the Apostles onely , not to the Elders and Church , as well as to them , vers. 4 , 5 , 6. This is answered in the former . 4. Else the Apostles would not have called all the Elders and brethren to consult , v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone . I answer : 1. Though the Apostles might have done it alone , yet they would not , but called together the Elders and Brethren , yea , and the whole Church at Jerusalem ( vers. 4 , 22. ) hereby to give a precedent to all Presbyters , or Elders of Churches , that in cases of difference arising , they call the whole Church together , for assistance and counsell therein . 2. In so doing , the Apostles diminished nothing of that Judicial power and authority which Christ left with them for deciding of controversies , being infallibly guided by the holy Ghost , while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner , which concerned the whole Church . 5. Peter and Iames ( say you ) would not have argued the case so largely , and proved it by Arguments and Scriptures , as they did , one after another , but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute , had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power . I answer : This followes no more then the former . For the Arguments they used , with the conclusion , were by the direction of the holy Ghost . And 2. The holy Ghost is not so peremptory , but will have his truths examined by the Scriptures , as Acts 17. 11. The Bereans are commended by the holy Ghost for examining Pauls Sermon by the Scripture , though hee were an Apostle , and spake by the holy Ghost . And 3. the Churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti . 6. The finall resolution ( say you ) Letters and Canons of this Synod , had run onely in the Apostles names , had they proceeded onely by their Apostolicall infallible authority , and not in the names of the Elders and brethren too . I answer : There is as little reason in this , as in all the rest of your reasons : for then by this reason sundry of Pauls Epistles , which were all dictated by the holy Ghost , did not proceed from that infallibility of Spirit alone wherewith the Apostle was guided , because we find others , not Apostles , joyned with him . As ( 1 Cor. 1. 1. ) Paul , called to be an Apostle of Iesus Christ , and Softhenes a brother , to the Church of God &c. And 2 Cor. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ , and Timothy a brother , to the Church , &c. And Gal. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle , &c. and all the brethren that are with me , to the Churche ▪ of Galatia , &c. So Phil. 1. 1. Col. 1. 1. 1 Thess. 1. 1. Paul , and Sylvanus , and Timotheus , to the Church , &c. In all which places , though there was but one Apostle , guided with infallibility of the holy Ghost to write the Scriptures , yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the Churches ; and yet Paul , as Apostle , did write those Epistles , and not simply as a brother , or fellow-servant with them of Jesus Christ . Neither are those brethren ( so named ) accounted the Pen-men of the Scripture , as Paul of right is . Thus you see , brother , there was no necessity , that either the Apostles names should be put alone , because they only were guided by the Spirits infallibility : or that the names of the Elders and Brethren should not be put , without a necessary conclusion deduced thence , that the Decree there was therefore binding , as being the Decree of a Synod , and so exemplary for all Parliaments , Councels , Synods , to make the like binding Decrees . But ( good brother ) for all your punctuall quotations of that Scripture , you doe not all this while tell us ▪ ( which is the main of all ) that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter , IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS , TO LAY VPON YOU NO GREATER BVRTHEN , THEN THESE NECESSARY THINGS . Now , brother , we chalenge you to shew us any Parliament , Councell , Synod , ever since the Apostles , that could or can say thus , IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS , to determine controversies of religion , to make and impose Canons to bind all men , &c. Shew this to us , at this time , and we will obey . But if you cannot , as you never can , never let any man presse upon us that Scripture , that Synod , which hath no parallel in the whole world , and so is no precedent , pattern , for any Councell , Synod , Parliaments . Let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous Chamierus , that grand Antagonist of Bellarmins . Bellarmine upon the same Scripture you alledge ( Act. 15. ) ( as also our late Prelates have usually done ) would deduce the same conclusion , that you doe , for humane authority in binding mens consciences . To which Chamierus thus answereth : that this consequence holds not : Quia non eadem sit authoritas Apostolorum , & reliquorum Ecclesiae Pastorum : Because there is not the same authoritie of the Apostles , and of other Pastors of the Church . For with those the Holy Ghost was extraordinarily present : so as what they propounded , did simply proceed of God . But other Pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the Spirit : and therefore their Decrees are not to be paralleld with the Apostles Decrees . Which is a speciall difference in binding of the conscience , which hath it selfe for witnesse , and God for the onely Iudge : therefore , when it hath any thing commanded of God , it must needs stand bound . Where ( inter caetera ) is to be noted , That God is the onely Iudge and binder of the Conscience . The great question in controversie at this day . Obj. But you will here object , That although ( as before you say of Priests ) a Councel , or Synod , have not this authority to make and impose binding decrees , yet a Parliament hath ; and you deduce it from this Synod , Act. 15. Answ. Now truly , brother , by your favour , this doth no way hold proportion , that that which you call a Synod ( as a patterne for binding Decrees ) should not qualifie a Synod of Divines with the like power , and yet transmit it over to a Parliament for binding authority over the consciences of a whole Nation : surely that Apostolike Assembly , or Church meeting , was neither a Parliament , nor Diet , nor Senate , nor any such thing , that you should build any such power of Parliaments upon it , for the making of binding Decrees over the consciences of men . Therefore , good brother , be not so peremptory , but take in your top-sail , too high to bear up against so stiffe a gale , both of Scripture and Reason . But I come to your twelfth and last Interrogatory . The twelfth Interrogatory . This Interrogatory is concerning the lawfull coercive power of Civil Magistrates in suppressing Heresies , &c. Or , setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall Government , &c. For answer hereunto , Wee do acknowledge and submit unto the lawfull coercive power of civill Magistrates , according to the Scripture , Rom. 13. But brother , however , you must distinguish between mens consciences and their practices . The conscience simply considered in it self , is for God , the Lord of the conscience , alone to judge , as before . But for a mans practices , ( of which alone , man can take cognizance of ) if they be against any of Gods Commandments of the first , or second Table ; that appertains to the civill Magistrate to punish , who is for this cause called , Custos utriusque Tabulae . The keeper of both Tables : and therefore the Apostle saith , ( Rom. 13. 3 , 4. ) For Rulers are not a terror to good WORKS , but to the evill . Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power ? DO that which is good , and thou shalt have praise of the same : for hee is the Minister of God to thee for good ; but if thou DO that which is evill , be afraid , for he beareth not the sword in vain ; for hee is the Minister of God , a revenger to execute wrath upon him that DOTH evill . So as we see here , what is the object of Civill power , to wit ; actions , good , or bad . Not bare opinions , not thoughts , not conscience , but actions . And your self exempts the preaching of the Gospel and truth of God , from being restrained by the civill Magistrate . But now brother , the time hath been , and somewhere is , and will be , that the * truth of God hath been with-holden in unrighteousnesse , and by the civill Magistrate punished with death , being condemned for heresie . And you see in these dayes , great diversities of mens opinions and judgements : one judging thus , another so ; you think my way erroneous , and I may do as much for you . But do you or I , DO that which is evill , in actually breaking of any of Gods commandments , or any just lawes of the land ? then we lie open to course of civill justice ; but so long as wee differ only in opinion , which of us shall be punished first ? or which of us is in the error ? you write books , I write against them ; yet sub judice lis est , who shall be Judge ? you ? or I ? surely neither . Among other things , you would have the civill Magistrate to suppresse , restrain , imprison , confine , banish the setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authority . It may be you will involve me in the number . But what if I prove that which you call a new form , to be the old form : and the lawfull authority of setting it up , to be of Christ ? Must I therefore undergo all these your terrible censures , because you so judge ? What if your judgement herein be altogether erroneous ? What punishment then is due to him that condemnes the innocent ? you may be a civill Judge one day ; remember then , brother , that if I come before you , you meddle not with my conscience , nor with mee for it . If I shall offend any of your just lawes , punish mee and spare not . But if you should make a law like to that of the Jewes , that who so shall confesse Christ to be the Son of God , and the only Law-giver , Lord , King , Governour over Consciences , Churches , and not man , not Assemblies , not Councels , or Senates , though after much Fasting , Prayers , Disputes , ( as you say ) I confesse , I shall be apt to transgresse that law ; but yet take you heed how you punish me for that trangression , with an Ense recidendum , or I wot not what club-law . So ends your Book , and so my Answer . Now brother , you have since published a third Book , partly in answer to your first Answerer , and partly touching Mr Joh. Goodwin ; I leave the parties interessed to acquit themselves ; Only your stating the Question in the conclusion of the Book , I could not omit . You sta●● it thus : Whether a whole representative Church and State , hath not as great , or greater Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction over the whole Realm & Churches , with all the members , then any one Independent Minister or Congregation challenge over their members . Brother , I answer , if you can prove your Jurisdiction good , we will easily grant it to be greater . But if the Jurisdiction of the Churches you call Independent be good , as having Christ for the founder and owner of it , as we have cleerly proved , then certainly , it will prove the greater : For , magna est veritas , & praevalet : for Christs kingdome shall stand up , when all opposite earthly kingdomes , like earthen vessels , shall with his iron rod be dashed in pieces : This for the Clause . Another passage in the same Book , is touching my person : where you say , That none of us three-brethren-Sufferers , suffered for opposing Bishops legall authority , or any Ceremonies by act of Parliament established : Here brother , give me leave to answer for my self : First , for all manner of Ceremonies of humane ordinance , imposed upon the conscience in the worship of God , I openly , for the space almost of a twelvemoneth , immediately before my troubles , preached against them , every Lords day , out of Col. 2. from the 8th verse to the end of the Chapter ; so as when I was summoned into the High Commission Court , the Articles read against mee , were not only for my two Sermons , Nov. 5th , but also for those other Sermons against the Ceremonies : so as this might challeng to be one ingredient in my censure in Star-Chamber , and no lesse then a pillory matter . And concerning my opposing of Bishops themselves , not only their extravagancies ( for which I also was censured , and suffered ) you may remember one passage in that Book , For God & the King , affixed to the information ; Were there a law in England , as once among the Locrians , that who should come to propound a new law , he● should come with a rope about his neck ; I would be the first my self , to petition the Parliament , that the government of Bishops might be abolished , and another set up more agreeable to the Scripture , ( although I confesse , were I to make such a proposition now , I should ●● much alter my style , as the condition of this present time differs from that , I should mount much higher . ) And do you not think , brother , that this helped to put the Hang-mans knife ( though not the halter ) so close to the very root of mine ears , that it opened the wider sluces for the blood to stream out ( with yours my dear Fellow-sufferers ) to fill the Whores cup , and make her drunk and spue , and fall , and rise up no more ? Although the more cautelous and self-wise , or discreet any of us ( but especially my self ) then was , to avoid the fear of men , or force of law , certainly now , brother , it abates so much the more of the honour of that suffering ; and the lesse honour , the more shame . But take we the shame to our selves , and give we all the honour to whom it is due ; and brother , wherein we then came short , let us now make it up , by being zealous for our Christ , in labouring to advance the throne of his kingly government in all our souls , and over all the Churches of the Saints , and with those four and twenty Elders , cast our selves and crowns before him that sitteth on the throne , saying . Thou art worthy , O Lord , to receive glory , and honour , and power , for evermore . Amen . And let this be our main contention , who shall most honor Christ , and most love one another , Farewell . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A30650e-320 Pag. 2. * Esa. 66. 8. * Zach. 20. * Col. 2. 23. Pag. 3. Qu. 2 , 3 , 4 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. Contranegantem principia non est disputandum . * 1 Cor. 14. 40. & 11. 34. Harm. of Confessions , sect. 10 11 , 26. Ibid. Observationes brevissimae in totam Harmoniam . sect. 19. Append. sect. 10. Vide Appendices locorum , &c. ibid. * Ibid. * See also the close of Gualter . Homil. in the Acts . Not but that we grant a vari●ty in the meth●d and manner in po 〈…〉 t of circumstance , so the sub 〈…〉 ce b● k 〈…〉 , ●s repentance f●●m dead Work● , & fai●● towards our Saviour Iesus Christ : So in Church-government . Exod 25. 40. Heb. 8. 5. * But we do not say that the same things are prescribed under the Gospel , nor doth it come to such circumstantia●s ● but we say , what it prescribeth , is to be kept . * 1 Cor. 14. 32 , 33. Rom. 13. 1● . 1 Pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. 1 Cor. 10. 32 , 33. 1 Cor. 7. 17. 1 Cor. 16. 1. * Hollinshed● Description of Britaine , Chap. 7. About the yeer 187. Fox his Monuments . * Act. 17. 11. Cambdens Remains . * Act. 17. 11. 1 Sam. 11. 2. Quest . 3. Rroposition . Assumptions which takes up the fourth question . Conclusion . 1 Cor. 11 ▪ * See also Nicolas de Clemangüs , super materia Concilii generalis , circa initium . Non oportet nos Ecclesiae triumphantis , Ecclesiae titulos ascribere , ut infallibilis sit , &c. Obj. Answ. Proposition . Assumption . * Mat. 10. 34. Luk. 23. 2. 14. Act. 14. 5. Proposition . Assumption . Synagoga , & postea Ecclesia s●n●o●●● habu●t , quoru● si●e ●onsis●o nihil age●atur in Ecclesia . Quod qua negligentia obsol●v●●it nescio , nisi Doctorum desidia , aut magis sup●rbia , dum soli volunt aliquid videri . comment. Ambrosii in c. 5. Epist. ad Tim. 1. 5. Proposition . Assumption * Iohn 4. Acts. 10 35 Matth 28. 20. Polydor Vi●g●l de ●nven t● ib rerum . lib 4 cap 9. 1 Cor. 1 2. so Rom. 1. 7. so Ephes. 1. 1 , &c * Mat. 3. 5. 7. Io● . 4 1. Acts 2. 40. Ierem. 50. 5. Gen 17 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. Rom. 4. 11 , 16 * Luke 19. 14. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . Proposition . Assumption . Conclusion . Exod. 5 , 6. 〈◊〉 . 1● . 3. * Act. 15. Proposition . Assumption . Conclusion . Heb. 3. ● . Revel. 22. 18 , 19 ▪ So Deut. 4. 2 ▪ and 12. 32 ▪ Prov. 30. ● . 1 Chron. ●8 . Proposition . Assumption . Conclusion . Luke 9. 23 ▪ Eph. 1. 21 ▪ Col. 2. 6. Iude 15. Formae rerum nesciuntur . Scaliger . Exerci● ▪ Rom. 3. 3. Act. 4. 1● . {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , &c. 1 Iohn 2. ●● ▪ Obj. Answ. Rom. 13. Rom. 14. 4. Nudum Christum , nudus sequere ▪ Hieron Ecclesia prae●●pue & ex intentione , fi ●●●s tantum ●ol●● gi● , qui veram fidem in corde ●●●●nt . Cum autem admiscentur a●●qui ●ic●i , qui verè non credunt , id accidit praeter intention●m Ecclesiae si ●n●m cos n●sse posset , nunquam admitteret , aut c●su admissos , continuè excluder●t . Bellar. de Eccles. l 3. c. 10. See also D. Field of the Church , Book 1. cap. 7. * Such were called of old , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Euseb. Notes for div A30650e-8190 * Eph. 2. 21. Prov. 5. 16. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Obj. Ans. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Phil. ● . 1. 1 Cor. 12. 28. A●●● 6. & 20. * ●alingen . 1 Tim. 6. 15. Gen. 4. 4. * Heb. 13. 10. 15. Col. 2. 23. Calv. Comment . in Gen. cap. 4. Tenendum est , non fuisse temerè ex cogitatu● ab illis sacrificandi morem , sed traditum divinitus , &c. * Heb. 13. 10. 15. 1 Chron. 28. 11. 12 , &c. to v. 19. Psal. 2. Act. 3. 22. * 1 Pet. 2. 4. * Revel. 1. 6. * Mat. 13. 19. * Act. 10. 3● . Luke . 19. 6 , 7 , 8 , 10. * Act. 10. 3● . Luke . 19. 6 , 7 , 8 , 10. Gen. 9. 27. * Act. 25. 11. * Mat. 10 ●● . * Rom. 13. 7. * Ioh. 6. 66. * 1 Cor. 11 , 22. * Revel. 15 ▪ 3. Obj. Ans. * Rom. 4. 11. 16 * Iohn 13. 30. The writings of B●za and Er●stus one against the other , are extant . Panstratie Catholicae . Tom. 3. De libertate Christiana . lib. 15. c. 10. De prohibitis Idolothytis , sāguine , & suffocato . Illis aderat extra ordinē spiritus sanctus : adeo ut quae illi proponerēt , a Deo simpliciter manarēt . Atreliquis Pastoribus adsistentia spiritus nulla extra ordinem : itaque ne eorū quidō sanctiones eodem loco habitae cū Apostolorum sanctionibꝰ . Precip autē discrimé in obligatio ● Conscientiae , quae se restem habet , Deū solum Judicem : ideo ūhabet aliquid imperatum a Deo , non potest nō obstringi . * 2 Thes. 2. Rev. 4. 10.