Something of truth made manifest (in relation to a dispute at Draton in the county of Middlesex in the first moneth last) in opposition to the false account given of it by one Philip Traverner, in his book styled the Quakers-rounds, or, A faithfull account, &c. / and this is written ... by E.B. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A30543 of text R22012 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B6026). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 50 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A30543 Wing B6026 ESTC R22012 12261184 ocm 12261184 57908 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30543) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 57908) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 861:22) Something of truth made manifest (in relation to a dispute at Draton in the county of Middlesex in the first moneth last) in opposition to the false account given of it by one Philip Traverner, in his book styled the Quakers-rounds, or, A faithfull account, &c. / and this is written ... by E.B. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. [2], 22 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1658. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to Edward Burrough. cf. BM. eng Taverner, Philip, b. 1616 or 17. -- Quakers-rounds. Society of Friends -- Great Britain. A30543 R22012 (Wing B6026). civilwar no Something of truth made manifest (in relation to a dispute at Draton in the county of Middlesex in the first moneth last) in opposition to t Burrough, Edward 1658 10405 31 0 0 0 0 0 30 C The rate of 30 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-04 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2004-04 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion SOMETHING OF TRUTH MADE MANIFEST ( In Relation to a Dispute at Draton in the County of Middlesex in the first Moneth last ) in opposition to the false account given of it by one Philip Taverner , in his BOOK styled the QVAKERS-ROVNDS ; OR A Faithfull Account , &c. And this is written for the Truths sake by E. B. LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth neer Aldersgate , 1658. FOrasmuch as one ( who hath ( I suppose ) ambitiously stiled himselfe Mr. Philip Taverner ) hath taken in hand to set forth to the view of the world , an account & relation of a dispute happening in the 11. moneth last , at Draton neer Colebrook , to which relation I am a little engaged to write somthing by way of answer thereunto , that all people may know the truth ; and being the truth is somewhat concerned herein , that is the reason wherefore I have taken in hand to write a little by way of answer to his relation , being without any prejudice towards the man , as concerning any wrong he hath done to me , though me as well as the truth he hath wronged , as may appeare to such who desire to know the truth . It 's true , a publique dispute I had , the time and place mentioned , with a company of Priests , and this same Philip ▪ Taverner was one of them ; and the occasion of the Dispute was thus ; I being a few weeks before at a meeting with some friends in the said Towne , one Richard Goodgroom in his relation mentioned was present at the hearing of what was spoken , but at that time did not object any thing , though afterwards in London and other places he went up and down in a backbiting manner , and gave forth that I had held forth blasphemous Doctrine , or the like ; whereupon I much desired a dispute for the tryall of those things , and it was accomplished , and that day the truth was much made manifest , and deceit consounded ; and as to all the things objected agauist me by R. G. which he would have seemed to have taken great occasion thereby , as if some great matter of heresie and errour had been uttered by me . I say , the very truth of all these things was demonstrated according as I had laid them down , and his arguments against them made of none effect ; and though such as hardned their hearts might go unfatisfied , and in greater unbelief then they came , yet I am sure the upright-hearted , and such as desired the knowledge of the truth , were wholly satisfied , and this many can give testimony of with me : And though by his relation it may appear otherwise to some , yet wherein he hath related falsly , it shall fall upon his own head ; and his folly shall truly more appear in the end then he would have , or seem to cause any in me to appear at this present , and so he might with more credit to himself been silent , then to have medled in that wherein he hath shewed himself so imperfect . For I believe that this same Philip Taverner hath given a relation of four times as much as he did speak at that meeting ; and have related , as though he spake that which he never uttered , by so miny times so much as I have said , and have not related so much by many times , as was spoken by me , and by them of my part , as many may witnesse ; which work of his seems not to be perfect , neither yet altogether honest , as sober men may judge ; but such a thing must redownd more to his own dishonour , then to the truths disadvantage . And first , as to the Title of his false relation , which is stiled , The Quakers Rounds , or a faithfull Account , &c. To this I answer , that the very Frontispiece and Title of his Book savours of a vain light scornfull spirit ; and so every spiritual man may judge of it to be so ; but why dost thou P. T. say a faithfull account , but that to confirme falshood with audacious words , having a shew of confidence upon it , thereby the more easily to enter into the hearts of the people , as if it were irreproveable , coming also from the hand , and under the hand of a Mr. Philip , &c. having so stiled thy self , to make thy fame great , and to publish thy work under a seeming authority ; but hadst thou had more humility , lesse pride would have appeared : and hadst thou had a better heart , lesse of unfaithfull dealing would have proceeded from thee ; but as I have said , evill shall fall upon himselfe that hatcheth it for another ; but why dost thou say Faithful Account in the Title page ? signifying to the world , that all in it is true , and nothing of truth wanting in relation to that Dispute ; and yet in thy Epistle saith , thou dost not undertake to set down the multitude of words that that day was filled withal , and page 29. saith , that a third man of the company made a large discourse concerning the person justified , but relates not one word what was said by him ; and here thou hast not dealt faithfully , nor given a faithful account : And page 31. thou saith , E. B. at such a time did multiply many words , but doth not relate his particular words , and so hath not in this dealt faithfully , nor given a faithful account ; and also in many other things thou hast not related what was spoken at all ; and thus thou hast contradicted thy self , in saying a faithfull account , and yet consessing in effect unfaithfulnesse : And thy own words being compared together , proves a contradiction in thy own minde and pen ; for to give a faithfull account , as thou saist thou hast , is to relate the whole truth , and not to keep any back , neither to speak more then the truth , by adding thereto any thing . But again thou saist , thou undertak'st not to relate the multitude , or every particular of words , neither doth relate what particular words such a one and such a one spake , but saith he said so , and multiplyed many words , not saying what his words were ; and therefore thou hast heaped a contradiction upon thy own head , and it shall remain till it have made thee ashamed . And now as to the particulars , upon which the Dispute depended , so far as they are truly laid down in my words ; and in my intent and meaning I am ready to justifie them at any place or time convenient , or before any Auditory whatsoever upon lawfull occasion , but as thou hast laid them down , or some of them , thou hast wronged me and the truth , and either not understood my meaning , or subverted and perverted my words to thy own advantage . And whereas in the Epistle thou saist , I would not owne them , viz ▪ the particulars laid down to be mine at first , and yet owned every one of them in the discourse , &c. Answ. I did not own them ; but how ? and how did I own them but thus ? the Objector had laid down some of the particulars , not in my words , which made them vary from the intent of my meaning ; and others of the particulars he had laid down utterly false , and so I did deny them as coming from him ; but as to the substance of some of the particulars , I did own , having laid them down according to my own honest meaning , in my own found expression of words ; and thereupon I engaged a dispute upon the particulars , having first denied them as laid down by him , and in his corrupt expressions , and then owned them in the simplicity in the words as by me uttered ; I mean some of them , but some I altogether denied . And as to speak of that Text , Ioh. 5. 39. by which sayest thou , I endeavoured to skin over what I spoke , but to no punpose . I do deny thy words ; for that same verse shal stand a witness for me , and against thee in all the world ; and that verse shall prove that some of the Scriptures were spoken to the world , and not to the Saints , and the truth it self is my covering , and I need no other thing to skin over , as thou scornfully spakest . And whereas thou sayest , There was just matter of reproof in the dispute , in both parties , &c. Answ. While thou hast condemned others , thou hast judged thy self , who was of the one party , a strong contender for the Priests party ; and having now accused both parties , would clear thy self to be of neither , but cannot ; for it is known that thou didst take their part , and in the title thou sayest , the discourse was betwixt a party of them called Quakers , with Mr. Philip T. &c. where thou dost own thy self to be one , ( and reckons thy self the formost Master ) of the Disputants ; and now upon better consideration I think , when thou hast searched into their folly with whom thou wast joined , thou wouldst absent thy self to be none of them , but a third party ; but let me tell thee , what disorder , prejudice and passion as thou speaks of , as was amongst the Priests , thou hast a part in , and must own their sin and their condemnation , for thou art also guilty ; and that there was any passion ( except pure zeal for God and his truth , which thou mightest falsely so call ) or prejudice , or such like amongst us , I db deny it , and knows thee to have born a false testimony ; and all thy covers , as if thou wert a moderator or the like , in thy speaking , will not hide thee , nor cover thee from what I have said of thee . But as to the things in particular I now come , and may shew what my words are , and the ground of them , and how I laid them down , and upon what occasion in the first meeting whereupon the Dispute did arise ; and I do not here go about to give a perfect relation of that Dispute , for my memory hath not contained what passed ; but as to the intent and meaning of my words , I would give all the true knowledge thereof , and how far I do own the particulars charged against me . First , as to that , The Scriptures are not the word of God , because the Devil spoke something , and Pharoah something , which is there written . Answ. There is some truth in this ; but my words were drawn up by him at the shortest , and the most for his own advantage laid down by him ; for I do remember , that in the first meeting I was a speaking concerning the Word of God , and concerning the Scriptures , which are a declaration thereof , and shewing the difference betwixt the Word and the Letter , and Scriptures ; for the Word of God was in the beginning , and the world was made by it , and it endures for ever ; but the Scriptures were not in the beginning , for Moses was the first that wrote any thing of the Scripture , who was long after the beginning ; neither was the world made by them , neither can they endure for ever ; and therefore the letter , the Scriptures are not the Word of God which the Scriptures call ▪ the Word ; for also in the Scriptures are written what the Devil spoke , and what Pharoah and other wicked men spoke , and therefore they are not the Word of God , but as I have said , a declaration of the Word , and what is written of , is the Word ; but the Scriptures , ( the writings ) are not , but a testimony and declaration of the Word : much more as to this might be said , and was spoken by me at the meeting , which is not particularly related ; and this is sufficient to any honest man that is spiritual , who hath an understanding to judge hereof . Now I suppose themselves , none of them are so ignorant , as they will say the Scriptures are that Word which was in the beginning , and which shall endure for ever ; but say they , the Scriptures are another Word , a declarative Word , or such like terms ; now when we dispute or contend with any about the Word of God , we dispute what that Word is which the Scripture saith is the Word , and doth deny that Word to be the Scriptures ( writings ) though still we do own the Scriptures a declaration of that very Word of God , and that the Scriptures in any place doth call themselves the Word , or signifie so much , I do deny it , and it is left for any of our opposers to prove it that can ; if they do , I will confess it to be the Word , and revoke all that I have spoken to the contrary . And as for thy deductions and consequences drawn from my words , I do deny them , for they are not to me , but will turn upon thy self ; for thou sayest , A strange kind of assertion , as if nothing of the mind , will , and councel of God were declared in Scripture , and whitherto can be the tendency of such giddy doctrines , then to a weakening the authority of the Scriptures , and begetting slightings and undervaluing thoughts and that the effects may be lightly esteeming the Scriptures : These and such deductions hast thou drawn through thy ignorance , from my words , from all which I am clear , as having no intent to any such things , nor any intent but to testifie the pure innocent truth ; and thy deductions are far more ignorant and impudent then my assertion is strange ; and let thy consequences be what they will from my words , the truth of my words will justifie me , in the sight of God and his Saints ; for I do honour the Scriptures above other writings , and gives them the authority , and esteem , and respect due unto them , and more I dare not . And some of thy pages I pass over , as not worth taking notice of , onely doth say , thou hast wronged me , in not relating so much as was spoken by us , by far ; and in relating more then was spoken by thee , or thy party . And the next thing I note is this , where R G. said he would , and went about to prove , that the Letter is the Word of God , but was not , nor is never able to prove ; and thou hast changed the words of his argument in thy relation , from what they were as he laid them down in the dispute , from called , to owned ; For thus his words were laid down at that time ; said he , That which Christ and the Apostles called the Word of God , is indeed the Word of God , but Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God , Ergo . Now I denied , and do yet , that it can be proved , that ever Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God , and neither doth thy proofs now , nor his then , of the minor Proposition , prove that the Scriptures , viz. the writings were ever called the Word ; although it be true the Pharisees made the Word of God of no authority by their traditions ▪ but that Scripture doth not say that the Letter is the Word , which thing he was to prove , or else he said nothing to the purpose , and as to the other Scripture , 1 Thes. 1. 13. that will not prove that the Apostle called the Letter the Word , for it was the Gospel which they received as the Word of God , and not the Letter ; the Gospel is the Word of God , not denied by me but sealed unto : but the Gospel is not the Letter , and writings , but the Gospel is the thing written of ; and that is it which the Apostle means to be the Word of God , for that is the Word which he preached to the Thessalonians , and which they received , and so thy arguments and proof of thy minor Position is denyed , and so the major Position falls to the ground ; and by this nor any other argument can all you Priests of England prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God , which thing R. G. took in hand to prove , but could not , and would have cryed against it in me , as a great deal of heresie for denying it ; but error is fallen upon his own head . The next thing I note , is in page 13. where thou would seem to cover over R. G. thou sayest his words were not , That I had the thing signified in my hand , when I had the Bible ; but that I had that which declares of it . Now to justifie him in evil , thou hast wronged me and the truth ; for he did say when I held up my Bible , I had in my hand the thing therein signified upon this very occasion ; I holding up my Bible in my hand , and saying to this very effect , that that in my hand , I had the thing which did signifie in words of such and such things ; but I had not the thing signified ; and R. G. made answer and said , but I had the thing signified , and this some can witness , whereupon I made answer and said , if it be so that I have the thing signified in my hand , then I have God , and Christ , and the Saints , and Heaven , and Hell , men and beasts , and all things that here in is written of , and then he saw the folly of his own argument , I perceive . And much more as upon this subject was said on both parties , which I desire not much to recollect , onely what I have said I can certainly remember , and can justifie it ; and I must confess , that P. T. in some things hath done pretty fairly , though in other things he hath not done so . And now as to the next thing charged against me in the relation , being placed the second , though it is the third . That evil motions not consented to were not sin ▪ in the first private meeting I remember my words was laid down thus ▪ and so I owned them in the Dispute , that temptations or motions unto evil are not sin to any man who doth not consent and obey to serve temptations or evil motions , and they are not sin to the man , except they be consented to by the man , and this was proved in the example of Christ , who was tempted of the devil , and had motions to do evil , yet did not consent nor commit sin , for he resisted and overcome the Tempter , and so the devils motions and temptations which were sin in themselves , yet they were not sin to him ; and this proof then they could not deny , neither can any sober or upright man , and so in the dispute the thing was put to a farther question ; Thus , but are not those motions which arise out of a mans own heart sin , except they be consented to ? To which I was willing to speak something , and to own the very truth , and to justifie that there is a state wherein evil motions may arise out of a mans own heart , which are sin in themselves , and sin in the man , yet not sin to the man , if he doth not consent to them , obey them , and fulfil them , and the Scripture doth prove it , Rom. 7. where he saith it is no more I that 〈◊〉 but sin that dwelleth in me , for in his mind he served the Da● of God , and with his mind did not consent to the motions of evil and sin , and the sin was not his , nor reckoned against him by the Lord , because with his mind he consented not and this no upright man can deny ; and also I applied my self at that time for witness to the experience of sober people and Christians , whether many times there had not been evil motions in their hearts presenting themselves , to which they had not consented ; but the Lord had given them power over them , to resist them , and deny them , and they were not overcome of them ; and whether ever they were accused and condemned for such motions , which the Lord gave them power against ? or whether the rather they had not peace and joy in the Lord , who had discovered to them , and given them power over the evil which had presented it self ? And I also gave them that which I had witnessed concerning the thing , as a testimony agreeing with the Scriptures to that particular ; and though the relation saith , as if I spoke of my present state to be so ; but here in the hearers were mistaken , if so they understood me ; for my present state is another then what it once was ; I bless the Lord I speak without boasting , and my present state I did not then , nor now shall declare ; for I am not known to the world , nor desires to be , as what my state is ; but this was my intent , and is in these things ; my state was say I , yea I believe from ten years old , till many years after , that many times I had evil motions arising in my own heart , which sometime overcame me , and sometime the Lord gave me to overcome them ; so that I consented not to them , nor obeyed , nor followed them ; and when they did overcome me and lead me aside , then was I troubled and condemned of the Lord , for they were reckoned to be my sins when I consented , and many times the Lord gave me power over them , and I consented not , but resisted them and denied them , and then had I great peace and joy in the Lord , and no condemnation ; and this was my experience for some years together , though my present state be mother condition , of which I shall not speak , as not being needful at this time ; and this is the truth which no sober Christian can deny . It 's true , we spent a little time in disputing upon those things , but to little purpose as on their part ; for what I then said , many of the people saw to be the very truth , and all was well satisfied , except such as might harden their hearts ; and much more pass'd betwixt us . As to this thing which I cannot relate , onely P. T. as he began so he goes on , giving a report in his Relation of much more then himself spoke , and a great deal lesse then we spoke ▪ which thing in him is not very fair nor honest ; For I then proved by many Scriptures , that some were perfect in this life , 1 Cor. 2. 5. even perfect without sin , Iohn 1. 47. 1 Iohn 3. 7. and yet I did declare at that time that many of the Saints and Children of God were not come to the state of perfection , which admits of no addition , for many of the Saints daily receives more and more of Gods wisdome , and of his power and life revealed in them , wherein they grow up to God from strength to strength : And though they did so much contend against it , yet in the end was forced to confesse to the substance of what we speak , as to the particular of perfection . The next thing is concerning perfection , and I am charged with holding that perfection is attainable in this life , which thing I did hold forth and contend for it , and am not now ashamed of it , and my very proofs , which then I used , some of which are related by P. T. is sufficient enough to prove the particular , if I should say nothing more ; and even as the thing is related , though what I spoke , the whole is not related by much as about this particular of perfection ; but what is related shall stand as a witnesse for me , and against them that doth so much plead against perfection , even of such perfection to be without sin in this life : And to this I shall say little more , but leave his own relation unto the consideration of sober people , onely must say that P. T. hath belyed his own memory , in saying his relation is A Faithfull Account , and yet hath related much more then he spoke also about this particular . As to the next thing which is objected against me , That the Scriptures were given to the world , and not to the Saints , this is utterly false , & was neither thus spoken by me , nor yet my meaning . And at the Dispute I did deny that I spoke the words , neither had I any such intent as they have deducted , though still I do confidently affirme , that that Scripture , Iohn 5. 39 ▪ was spoken to the unbelieving Jewes that went about to kill Christ , who had never heard Gods voyce , nor seen his shape , nor had not Christs words abiding in them , and to them ▪ he spoke that Scripture mentioned ; neither had I any such meaning , but that the Saints and all sober people , and all people might search the Scriptures , though such a bad consequence they have drawn upon my words , and saith , it is a giddy assertion that hath dropped from me , and yet himselfe is forced to confess what I spoke is true , to wit , that that Scripture in the fifth of Iohn was spoken to the unbelieving Jewes , and not to the Saints , and yet P. T. to confound himself , confesses that I said the Epistles were given to the Saints , and this is a contradiction from his own pen : First , to say , that I asserted , the Scriptures were given to the world , and not to the Saints , and yet saith , I confesse the Epistles were given to the Saints , which are some part of the Scriptures . And whereas P. T. farther speaks , questioning in himselfe , how far I own the authority of the Scripuures , and such like , which shews his ignorance or his unbelief ; for I have , and do here again speak plainly that we do own the authority of the Scriptures , and we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures have had hope : And they are able to make the man of God perfect through Faith , and what Christ and the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be , the same we do , and neither more nor lesse : And in this we are approved of God , and let men judge what they will . And whereas P. T. speaks something of Jesuites , and saith he does not apprehend me to be of that measure of subtilty , which is found among men of that brotherhood , unlesse saith he , I have more then an ordinary art of hiding my self ▪ &c. To which I answer , Jesuites I deny , and all of that Fraternity , and whatsoever savours of Popery , yet am I hidden from people ; and what I am he knows not , neither the world ▪ for from that wisdome am I hid , neither can I manifest my self to that wisdom which is devillish , & knows not God ▪ nor the least of his sons and servants ; for in all those things of which we then discoursed , the depth thereof could hardly be spoken of , because of the darknesse of peoples understandings . And especially concerning justification I was very sparing , and could hardly freely declare my selfe ; yet what I spoke was a great satisfaction to many then present , though the one half that I spoke is not truly related , though so much as is related shall stand a sufficient witnesse for me , and against them that oppose me , and that my words and meaning w●● honest . This was the thing charged upon me , That no man was further justified then he was sanctified . Now my intent and meaning in this was honest ; and as about this particular much was spoken , which now I do not recollect to repeat ; only P. T. hath hinted in short at things how they passed , and my words shall be for ever witnessed , That sanctification is a witnesse of justification , & no man can further know himself to be justified then he is sanctified , nor justified then he is restored . And had P. T. but laid down my full answers as I spoke them at that dispute , there would have been no need to have written any thing in answer ; onely I do remember I did stand to manifest , that the new Birth , Sanctification , and Justification was all agreeing in one , and not one without another , and that Christ wrought righteousnesse perfectly without us , and also fulfilled rightenesse in all that believe , and no man is justified by the one of these without the other , and that hath not the other ; and they held the contrary , and R. G. did publiquely affirme that a man was justified by Christ , excluding the new birth , and the work of sanctification which I denyed , and must alwayes deny , that any man who is not born again , but is in the old nature , and not sanctified , but is in the pollutions of the world , is justified by Christs righteousnesse ; neither can he in that state till he be born again and sanctified , have any benefit or manifestation of justification by Christ ; and this all men shall witnesse , though because of this I now may be fasly judged : And though R. G. did openly testifie that Christ justified sinners as sinners ; yet say I , all that are justified , are justified through faith , and faith doth purifie the heart , as was largely spoken by divers of us at that meeting , which is not particularly related ; which definition of our justification , they could not except against ; for we never were , nor are ashamed to declare what we hold concerning justification , which is through faith in the blood of Christ the seed of the Covenant , and though at that time they made much jangling , yet to no purpose as to convince us of any errour , or any sober men there present of any errour in us as concerning that thing . And whereas it is related , as if I should say , We are men brought up at plow-tayle , and understand not Scholar like terms ▪ my words were not thus spoken ; but upon the occasion of their speaking words which is not in Scripture-language as inherent righteousnesse , for such like . Whereupon I desired them to keep to the form of sound words , and of Scripture-language , that people might understand what they spoke ; For said I , ye are Scholers as ye professe , and some of us were brought up at Plow or Cart , and may be doth not understand Scholar-like termes , though I did not meane all of us ▪ and what some of us do understand ▪ as to that , I shall not now speak ; yet this I say , the least of us doth understand betwixt truth and error , and between that which is righteous , and that which is unrighteous , and in that is more peace then in the knowledge of Arts or Tongues ; and our knowledge in that is dung and losse in comparison of the other . And as to Justification , upon which subject we contended a long time , though they foolishly charged us with it , we do deny utterly the works of man , and the works of mans righteousnesse , as in relation to our justification , and that it is only and wholly by grace and gift of God , and the righteousnesse of Christ who is revealed in all that believe in him ▪ by which justification comes ; yet say we , that faith without works is dead , and will not justifie a man ; but by that faith which brings forth works , even the works of God in us and through us , by that faith are we justified ▪ and according to the Apostles words so we believe ; not by works of righteousnesse which we have done , nor by a dead faith without works , but by a living faith which worketh in us , are we justified ; Let vain men deduct what they may , this is truth in the sight of the Lord , and all men . These indeed are the particulars upon which the Controversie depended ; and having been some hours together , they were willing to depart , and R. G. would give little hearing to me when I charged him with something uttered by him at divers times in my hearing , which I should have proved to be unsound doctrine and error had he had that patience to have stayed ; and whereas P. T. doth speak of having a Pope in our bellies , with such like scornful words , which a discreet man would not have defiled his mouth withal , but that he must shew himself to be of the generation of Priests , who persecuted the innocent in every age , and for his telling of our error , and recovering of our feet out of the snare , and delivering us from the delusion ; its true , his words stands but upon a supposition , and that supposition stands upon the report of others , as he seems to intimate , which is but a thing far off true credit ; for what error , and snares , and delusion , did P. T. convince us of in five hours discourse ? not any at all , but the rather was forced to confess , to the most part of what we delivered ; then what need was there to utter these his words in writing , as if he had heard some great matter of delusion or error ; but all these his words I do bear , and if he hath harboured such thoughts of us , as it appears too much by his words , let him cleanse his heart by repentance , lest his intended evil bruise his own head . And whereas he hath commented upon a book , called a Standerd lifted up , which book I own , and that which is therein written , and himself is forced to own what himself objects against , and comments upon : if ▪ saith he , E. B. mean so and so , then his words are truth , but if so and so , then it is Pope ▪ like , or such like . Alas poor man ! must I be judged upon thy own meaning ▪ nay , or must thy interpretation be the judge upon my words ? We have no such law , my words stands true , as I have laid them down , to be received by such as are spiritual ; and such as loves to raise constructions falsely , where there is no just ground , their judgement I do deny ; and charity will teach P. T. to judge upon the best sence , and so let him own my words as truth , and judge himself for his false construction of true and upright words ; onely this I take notice of , saith P. T. A perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons , though not wrought in our own strength , but in the strength and power of grace ▪ the spirit working all in us , and for us , is no other then the righteousness of the Law . I need not much strive to confound this black doctrine by many arguments or multitude of words , for the thing as laid down in his own words , is vile and abominable to the understanding of any spiritual man ; for say I , if it be the spirit working in us , and for us , not in our own strength , then is it God that worketh in us , both to will and to do , and the fulfilling of the righteousness of the Law in us , and not the righteousness of the Law wrought by us ; and if it be in the strength and power of grace , & not in our own strength , then it is the work of Christ in us , and the work of Gods own righteousness in us ; and any man that knows the least of God in truth , will witness to this , and against his imagined doctrine held forth by P. T. I might demand a proof of him from Scripture , where it is said or signified , that the working of the spirit , all in us , and for us , and the working of the power of grace in the creature , is reckoned to be our own righteousness , the righteousness of the Law ; and my words stands true from which he draws his false consequences , and layes down his dark assertions , and my own words I do own , which are , such as are taught by Christ , and guided by him in all the wayes of righteousness , are justified by him , and none else , not in any word or work whatsoever , but in what they are led to fulfil by him ; and in these words there is neither contradiction nor unsoundnesse , though he hath ignorantly charged them with both ; but the words shall stand for a testimony against him , and all his false deductions , and he and all shall know , that God justifies the righteous , and condemns the wicked , and that it is the new man that is justified , and not the old , and let righteous men judge what can be in such a mans heart , who can draw so bad consequences from such upright words . But farther , he goes on , and hath transcribed more of my words , as Christ Iesus the Son of God is the light and life of the world , and hath inlightned all mankind that comes into the world , with the true light , &c. Now saith he , how doth these agree with mans state in the first Adam , in transgression is a state of perfect enmity , and death raigns in every man , & he is possessed with blindness and unbelief , &c. I say these do very well agree , and they are both true , for death raigns in every man , and he is in unbelief and ignorance , and in a state of perfect enmity against God ; as he is in the first Adam , yet Christ hath lightned him , and the light of Christ shines in darkness in him , and the darkness comprehends it not , & he is inlightned , that he may be changed from death to life , and from ignorance to knowledge ▪ and though he walk in darkness , and be in blindness , and in a state of enmity , it is because he doth not walk and believe in the light which Christ hath lightned him withal , and in my words there is no disagreement nor contradiction , the darkness is in his own mind , who cannot comprehend the light , nor the words that proceed from it . Further , he questions upon my words , of having the witness in themselves of being restored again . First , whether none are restored again , but such as have the witness in themselves ? I answer , all that are restored again , and doth believe , hath the witness in themselves ; and none doth believe , nor are restored , but they have the witness of it . Secondly , he queries , whether all are restored , but some want the witness in themselves ? I answer , All are not restored , nor doth believe , and such wants the witness in themselves , that are not restored to God , but them that are restored wants it not . And again ▪ he queries , whether the light which is in all , is sufficient , without any thing further of grace super-added , to bring up every man to believe in Christ , & c ? I answer , The light which every man is lightned withal by Christ , is sufficient to bring up every man to believe in Christ , that loves the light and walks in it , and unto such is grace added and increased daily ; for as every man improves the measure of the gift of God , so it is increased , the light is increased , grace is increased , faith is increased , but still the light of Christ in it self is sufficient . Again , from my words , to wit , the spirit is given to be the guide and rule of life to the children of God ; from whence he queries , whether the spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints , that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures ? I answer , It is promised , that the spirit shall lead into all truth ; and such doth own the Scriptures , but not as their teacher ; for the anointing dwells in them , and they need no man to teach them , but as that anointing teacheth all things , and they have no need of the Scripture to teach them , for all the children of God are taught of God , and needs not any other teacher , nor needs not to say one to another , know the Lord ; and yet all such doth own the Scriptures to be the testimony of that which they believe , and have received . Again , from my words , to wit , the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to the truth of what I spake , unto which I do commend my self ; from this he queries , can these be witnesses to me , and of the truth in me , who are ignorant of the life and power of the Creator , &c. who are following the counsel of their own hearts which are evil , & c ? I answer , Yes , the light of Christ in such shall judge ▪ one day , and to it I commend my self , and by it one day shall be approved , though now the wicked hate the light , yet doth it witness against them , and for us , that we are of God , though its true they cannot judge between light and darkness , between truth and error , yet the light in them which shines in their darkness , doth judge and put a difference ; and when the book of conscience is opened , it shall justifie us , and condemn our enemies . Again , he queries , whether I make the Holy Ghost and the eternal Spirit two ? I answer no , they are one , neither do I seem to make them two , it is want of knowledge in him , who cannot understand , but raiseth objections where there is no cause . Again , from my words , this is acceptable and well-pleasing to God , above all words and outward conformity , &c. from this he questions , whether the doing the greater things of the Law is acceptable , where the less are neglected ? I answer , No ; for every tittle of the Law , less and greater , must be fulfilled by Christ in us , in whom we are accepted ; and thus I have returned a few words to the consideration of people , and particularly the people of Draton , and the Country thereabouts , to whom I direct my speech , thus , All ye people who are scattered , as sheep without a Shepherd , and knows not Christ the everlasting shepherd , to lead you & to rule you ; cease , oh cease from all your teachers without you , who are dumb shepherds , which doth not gather you to God ; such are they that preach for hire , and devine for money , and that takes gifts and rewards for preaching , who through covetousness , by feigned words doth make merchandise of souls ; such do keep you always learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth under their teachings ; your souls are starved under them , and you perish for want of true knowledge , and death raigns amongst you , and many are in the broad way that leads to destruction , but few in the strait way that leads to life ; and iniquity , and wickedness abounds amongst you , and like teachers , like people ; for from the least of them , even unto the greatest of them , every one is given to covetousness , Jer. 6. 13. great ignorance hath blinded your minds , and great darkness is over your hearts , and your teachers doth deceive you , and they cause you to erre , and you give your money for that which is not bread , and your labour for that which doth not profit , even as the people of Israel did , so do you , and in their transgressions do you walk , and your teachers are in the steps of the Pharisees , they are called of men Master , as the Pharisees were ; they stand praying in the Synagogues and Temples , as the Pharisees did ; and they have the chief seats in the Assemblies , as the Pharisees had , and they even shut the kingdom of heaven against men as the Pharisees did , and will not enter in themselves , nor suffer them that would ; cease from all your outward Priests , and hearken to the voice of the Lord , which breaks down that nature which is contrary to God , and raiseth up the seed which is heir of Gods kingdom , & turns your minds to the light in you which Christ hath lightned you withal , which light shines in your consciences , and convinces you of your evil deeds , it reproves you for vain words and ungodly speeches , it will let you see what your hearts goes after , and what your love goes out unto , and if you love that , it will lead you to Christ , and he will be revealed in you to teach you , and to give you the witness of peace and reconciliation with God , the light is your eye by which you may see God , it will lead you out of all idolatrous worships and works , and from your false worships , which is abomination to the Lord ; and you must be converted and changed into a new nature , and you must put off the old man & his works , before you can worship God aright , for he is worshipped in spirit and in truth onely ; and such the Lord is now seeking to worship him ; therefore cease from your Steeple-house-worship , which is in the traditions of men , and not in the spirit of the Lord ; and that worship must be confounded , for its root is corrupted , and its branches will wither , and the breath of the Lord is kindled against it ; if you love the light of Christ and walke in it , there is your teacher ; and if you hate it , there is your condemnation . The next day after the Dispute , this was written , and sent in a little time after to Draton , and up and down that ways . Richard Goodgrom , FRiend , hath not thy ignorance , folly , and wickedness towards me now appeared , and is it not made manifest in the sight of many people ? And now thou maist cease to boast , and also to back-bite for the time to come , and no more secretly to surmise behind my back , to the raising of unruly spirits against me , so much as in thee was possible : and hadst thou been more crafty , and more subtle , more mischief thou mightst have done ; but the innocent is delivered , and thou art taken in the snare which thou laidst for another , and false doctrine is proved to proceed forth of thy mouth ; and thou and thy company may be ashamed , when you consider the managing of your worke against me , who many times appeared immoderate , in speaking many at once consusedly , and also were unreasonable in not being satisfied with just answers ; but it shews your blindnesse and unbeliefe , who cannot understand the truths of the Gospel of Christ ▪ but comends against them , though in the end you are forced to confesse to them as was sufficiently witnessed that day of the Dispute ; and thou in particular who reproachedst me behind my back in divers places where I have heard of it by my friends , whom thou judgedst had not been so , jet they have discovered the naughtiness of thy heart both in the Country and in the City : Thou hast given forth that I had preached false Doctrine , and such like wicked reproachfull back-biting language behinde my backe , not like a man faithfull to God and thy neighbour , but one that hath surmised evill against the harmlesse : and thou mayest remember , all these things which thou objectest against , who would have made a great matter of them against me , yet are they sufficiently proved to the understanding of many honest people . And if thou and thy company will be blinde , it is because you harden your hearts against the truth , and I am clear in the sight of the Lord ; and all shall know that have an eare to heare that what I professe , preach , and practice , is the saving truths of Iesus Christ ; though they may be branded to be heresie by such as thee , who may call light darknesse , and darknesse light , and put good for evill , and evill or good ; & at a convenient opportunity I may take in hand to prove that thou thy selfe hast held forth that which cannot be justified by the Scriptures , but are condemned thereby . Many things fell from thee in my hearing , which I may object against , and prove the contrary , and I shall not goe behind thy backe , as thou hast done , to slander thee ; but I shall rest contented , and wait the opportunity to lay open thy nakednesse and weaknesse in the sight of all people : And whatsoever thou judgest , The Scriptures , ( the writings ) and the things written of , is two things . The one is the word of God , but the other is not , and this all sober men confesseth too . Though thou jangle , and twist about it with thy lame arguments , to no purpose at all , except to shew thy weakness and folly : And also no man is justified by Christs righteousness , untill he receive it , and as he receives it , and this thou shalt one day witnesse ; for though righteousness be in him , sufficient to justifie , yet by it art thou nor any man justified , but in the receiving of it , and dwelling in it , and this shalt thou confess to be truth in the day of the Lord : And in the mean time let me bear thy false censure in calling this heresie . And also a man may be tempted to sin , and there may be evill motions to him ; yet he not being overcome of the temptation , not consenting to the motion of sin , it is no sin unto him , neither shall sin be imputed to him , if he commit it not ; but he that commits sin , though he profess never so much of justification , yet for his sin shall he be condemned , and this shalt thou witness in the day of Iudgement . Also that there is a perfection attainable in this life , even to be perfect and without sin in Christ Iesus : and this I affirm to be the truth of the Gospel , and that wherein the faith of Gods people standeth ▪ and though thou madest a twisting & a wrangling against it , yet it is too strong for thee , and in thy wisdome and thy arguments , is thy folly and thy weakness seen , and truth stands over thee , and thou canst not it nor me reprehend ; and also that some of the Scriptures was spoken to the world , and not to the Saints , this I also have sufficiently proved , and thou art not able to detect it , and all thy snarling in opposition to these things is confounded , and thy arguments made without effect ; and all whose eyes are opened , sees thee to be of too short a measure , and of too weake a capacity to understand the deep things of God which is hidden from thine eye , and them thou savourest not in that wisdome ; though thou hast the words ▪ yet thou art ignorant of the life , and the life is in dominion over thee ▪ and to it must thou submit , and lay down thy Crown ; and from thee am I hidden in that life and truth which I do possess : And though I be as a deceiver , yet am I true : And though I be slandered and reproached , and back-bited by thee , yet it is for Christ Iesus sake , and for his truths sake , and not as an evill doer . But friend , learn more wisdome then to judge a man before thou hear him , or to condemn the matter before thou hear the proof of it ; for by these things thou hast not gained a good report , but God condemns thee for it , & men sees thy shame in it , and the burthen of it one day shalt thou beare , even then and all that own thee in these things . And now thy spirit is tryed , and it is found too light , and cannot stand in judgement , for it is unfavoury : And though separate from the world in appearance , yet is thy spirit of the world , and reacheth not the knowledge of the things that are eternal ; but art imagining in thy minde , not being guided by that Spirit which gave forth the Scriptures , and so thy konwledge is naturall , and cannot contain spirituall things : Therefore friend , come down to Gods witnesse in thee , the light which shews thee sin , and convinces thee of evill , that light is thy teacher if thou love it , and thy condemnation if thou hate it . I have divers particulars against thee at a convenient season , to manifest thy folly and weakness by them ; and what ever thou judge me , I am a friend to thy soule . E : Burrough . Richard Goodgroom held forth at the Dispute at Draton the 18. day of the 11. moneth , 1657. HE said the Letter was the word ; and by Letter he said he meant the thing contained in the Scriptures : And when I said I had the Letter in my hand , meaning my Bible , but not the thing signified ; he said , but I had the thing signified : and he said , people were justified by Christ , excluding the new birth and the work of sanctification ; and Christ justified sinners as sinners ( that is ) while sinners remaining in sin . At Justice Fortescues house , in the yeare 1656. he did deny that any was converted to God by a light within ▪ and then asked if it was not that same light which converted , which gave the knowledge of God , and they confessed yea : and yet did deny that the light within converted to God , though I shewed them that Scripture , 2 Cor. 4. 6. which did confound the deceit . At Uxbridge one time he said , Christ needed not to have come to have judged the world , for there was sin enough in the world to judge it before he came . Then I asked if sinne judged the world , and he answered yea ; and he said they were in the Covenant of God , spoken of Nehem. 9. which turned the law of God behind their backs . THE END .